National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I wish to inform the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 26.7(v), that the Visitor Accommodation (Register and Levy) Etc. (Wales) Act was given Royal Assent on 18 September.

The first item on our agenda this afternoon will be questions to the First Minister. The first question this afternoon is from Carolyn Thomas.

On 14 October, we will set out a one-year budget. It will rise with inflation, giving people who work in the NHS, schools and our councils the stability that they need. Fourteen years of Tory austerity hollowed out our public services, and this Welsh Labour Government is still rebuilding the damage. Now, other parties will say that it's not ambitious enough, but if they want to back a budget that uses every pound we've got, my door is open.

Thank you for that answer, First Minister. As a previous cabinet member for a council, I know how difficult it has been trying to deliver budgets year after year during 14 years of Tory austerity. Reform, who are Tories in sheep's clothing, are misleading residents. There are no more big cuts to be made without further impacting on everyday lives, on services that matter to people. People need hope. They need a decent life. We need strong communities, not division. Welsh Labour have always protected public services as much as possible. So, can you confirm to me that you will use all resources available to cover inflationary pressures, to protect local services that matter to people, such as education, houses, transport and childcare?

We're going to take a responsible approach to this budget. That's what we've done for the past 26 years. We will provide the stability for public services and for the people of Wales because we know that it is a priority to pass the budget. There is an obligation on us, as a Senedd, to pass the budget because the consequences of not passing a budget are extremely serious for the people that we represent. I think this will be a test of how reckless other parties may be. I think there's a real—real—threat that, if we fail to pass this budget, there will be a 25 per cent cut to that budget. People need to really focus on what that might mean. Labour will be playing its part very sensibly and reasonably, and will be acting in the mature, experienced way that we have done for the past 26 years.

Of course, the real reason why public services are struggling under inflationary pressure is because we have a Labour Government here in Cardiff and a Labour Government in Westminster. When Labour took over in Westminster last year—. Inflation has nearly doubled since their time in office, continuously eroding the value of every pound that would usually be spent on our public services. One of the policy decisions that the UK Labour Government has made that is having a significant impact is the increase in national insurance contributions, not just affecting public sector organisations here in Wales, because they've been let down by a Labour Government not passing on the funding that they promised they would, but also impacting our businesses up and down Wales, and public service delivery bodies as well, such as our hospices. So, First Minister, when will you admit that Labour have not got a grip of the economy here and Labour are failing people here in Wales?

I can't believe I've had that question from a Tory—a Tory. The Tory Party didn't just not fix the roof, they smashed up the roof, they sold what was left of it. We're fixing that roof, slate by slate, making up for the mess that your party left. Let me tell you that £1.6 billion of extra funding has come into the budget this year, no thanks to you. That is money going to the front line, supporting and protecting our public services.

But, First Minister, you mentioned in your response there the fact that the draft budget provides stability for councils. That's certainly not the message coming through clearly from the Welsh Local Government Association. We know, don't we—and we've discussed many times in this place—in terms of national insurance, that Wales isn't being fully compensated by the UK Labour Government. You said that your door was open, but what I want to know is on what doors you are knocking and what you are asking the UK Labour Government to give to Wales in the budget that will come on 23 November, because it's clear to everyone here that the budget that we've received from a Labour Government in Westminster is not sufficient.

We take our responsibility seriously. We have done for the past 26 years. You aspire to be a party of Government. Let me tell you that you have to make some serious decisions, and some of those decisions have an impact directly on people's lives in our communities. If we fail to pass this budget, there will be a 25 per cent cut in money going to our front-line services—[Interruption.] Is that right: 'Bring it on'? Is that where we're at? I hope people will take note of that and make sure that there is an understanding. We will be responsible. We do our job here. You keep on trying to get us to do a job that is Westminster's job. We take our job seriously. You didn't take your job seriously last year. You were willing to see that budget, last year, fail. Let me tell you, it is too risky, it is too serious for us to play politics with people's lives.

Fly-tipping is a crime. That's why this Welsh Labour Government has put another £400,000 into tackling it, funding cameras, stop-checks with the police, and expert legal support for councils. And it's working. Prosecutions have nearly doubled, and councils in Newport, Caerphilly and Monmouthshire are using new surveillance equipment that we've helped to pay for.

Thank you very much for that response, First Minister. As you, I'm sure, are probably aware, fly-tipping is a major issue in Newport, with the city retaining its title of being Wales's fly-tipping capital. More than 7,000 incidents were reported in 2024-25. Whilst that number has dropped from the 8,139 logged the previous year, it still remains unacceptably high. Fly-tipping is an issue more and more constituents are contacting me about, and I'm currently dealing with a long-standing saga in the George Street area of the city. Occupants in one property are dumping obscene amounts of rubbish in a nearby lane on nearly a daily basis, and surrounding neighbours have simply had enough. Not only is it a nuisance for residents, but Newport City Council are often having to send out teams to remove the fly-tipped waste, which is in turn undoubtedly putting extra pressure on finance and resources. This is not a criticism of the city council, as they've been working really, really hard with my office on this issue, and, as you've said, have installed CCTV cameras in the area. But, sadly, the problem is still ongoing. So, First Minister, will you commit to seeing what extra steps this Government can take to help Newport City Council end this particular issue, but also get a grip on the city-wide problem? Thank you.

Thanks, Natasha. I'm sure you will welcome with me the news last week that Wales has the second-best recycling rates in the world, within touching distance of Austria, the first, at 0.4 per cent. So, I want to congratulate all the people of Wales for helping us deliver what is an extremely successful approach to recycling. That's why, when it comes to fly-tipping, it is so disappointing. It is a curse on our society and in our communities. That's why we as a Government have been supporting councils like Newport. It's great that they are taking those powers seriously. They've handed out 313 penalties, which is a significant increase from previous years. We are the only part of the United Kingdom that's gone after and recovered money from large-scale organised fly-tipping through our Welsh Revenue Authority. This autumn, we're going to run a major stop-check operation with South Wales Police and with NRW. We are taking this extremely seriously. People hate fly-tipping. It is important that people in our communities take their responsibilities seriously and do not fly-tip, which causes all kinds of chaos and disruption in our communities.

I'm glad that Natasha has raised this issue. It's something that affects towns and villages across our region. Fly-tipping and littering are becoming more of a problem. The rubbish that's found on verges, in back streets, in parks, isn't just an eyesore, it can become a problem for public health. I've had constituents calling the office to say that they've seen rats in some places where rubbish has been building up. Lots of local groups volunteer in their villages. For the past few months, I've been going out with the Penpedairheol Pickers, who are led by Councillor Haydn Pritchard. These groups make a difference, but they can't do it alone. Often, with fly-tipping, the things that are dumped are far too big for volunteers to shift themselves. So, would you join me in thanking those brilliant local groups for what they do, but would you also outline what your Government will do to tackle this issue nationally?

Well, thanks very much. And I would like to thank the local groups, because there is a marvellous army of people across Wales who spend their time cleaning up the communities, and I think it is important that we pay tribute to them. But they shouldn't need to do it, because if everybody acted responsibly they wouldn't have that job to do. On Fly-tipping Action Wales, we, as a Government, have funded them to the tune of £1.6 million, and this focuses on prevention and enforcement action. I think it is worth noting that the issue of household waste bags being left next to litter bins is an increasing problem. That is fly-tipping. People need to understand that is not acceptable. Putting a bag next to a litter bin is fly-tipping. So, we need all to understand what it means and what our responsibility is as citizens in our communities.

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Conservatives, Darren Millar. 

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, why does your Welsh Labour Government continue to waste taxpayers' money on issues for which it has absolutely no responsibility? You are spending millions on mini-embassies in exotic locations around the world, solar-powered boats for the Wampis tribe in Peru, gender-equal tree planting in Uganda, whatever that means. How on earth can you bleat on about being underfunded from Westminster and not getting enough funding from Westminster when you are wasting millions overseas that could and should be spent on people in Wales?

I think it is probably worth noting that, under the years of austerity under the Tories, we faced a situation where we had to make up for the lack of funding, the lack of action, coming from the UK Government for areas for which they had responsibility. Let me give you an example: broadband and the roll-out of broadband. It was not the Welsh Government's responsibility, but we had to make up for the fact that the UK Tory Government was not doing its job. If it had been left to the Tories, there would be hundreds of thousands of homes in Wales today not linked to broadband. So, don't tell us not to step in at times when the Government in the United Kingdom are not doing their job properly. It was your Government that didn't do that, and we have to make up for the losses and the fact that you weren't doing the job properly.

I'm sorry, First Minister, but you didn't answer the question. You are spending millions overseas when you could be spending that money here and you are bleating on about not having enough money from Westminster. You sent £150-odd million back because you couldn't spend it and you had no advice on how to do so. And, of course, it's not just overseas that you're frittering away Welsh taxpayers' money. You have also spent millions on a constitutional commission and a justice commission, pushing, along with Plaid Cymru, for more powers for the Welsh Government, when you're screwing up the use of the powers you've already got, and £24 million on a universal basic income scheme, giving £1,600 a month to some young people even if they spend all day sat on their backside doing absolutely nothing. First Minister, when are you going to get a grip of this profligate and wasteful expenditure and focus instead on the priorities of the people of Wales?

I am absolutely focused on the priorities of the people of Wales. That's why, when I came in, I listened to what they had to say and I have set out those priorities—four priorities—and we are getting on with the job. We are making sure that waiting lists are coming down, that we're seeing improvements in the NHS, that we're building more homes, that we're seeing improvements in our rail and we're making sure that our economy expands. That's in contrast to you: 14 years of Tory austerity. Are you going to apologise to those people who are paying the price? Tell me now, Darren, which of the Prime Ministers was your favourite? Was it Boris Johnson, who broke the law? Was it Liz Truss, who crashed the economy? Or was it Rishi Sunak, who failed to fix the roof, but couldn't even find an umbrella? It's important, I think, that you think about the failures of your Government before coming after us.

I think that we should be clear about the failures of your Government in power here in Wales, with the worst NHS in Britain, the poorest pay packets in the United Kingdom and the poorest educational standards as well. And it's not just overseas matters that you're spending money on, it's not just wasting money on constitutional commissions—you're also spending money, of course, on a matter that is completely non-devolved, which is immigration. The people of Wales are clear that immigration is too high, and this has consequences for absolutely everything. We don't have enough homes, we don't have enough hospitals and we do not have enough school places for a population that increases by more than the size of Swansea, Newport and Wrexham combined every single year. And let's be clear: money spent on benefits, money spent on housing and money spent on healthcare, including for illegal immigrants, is money that we cannot spend on Welsh citizens. Yet your nation of sanctuary plan, which is supported, of course, by Plaid Cymru, is funding support and services, including for illegal immigrants. That's tens of millions of pounds that could and should be spent on people in Wales and our public services. Now, the Welsh Conservatives are absolutely clear: the nation of sanctuary plan should be scrapped, and it should be scrapped immediately. So, will you now scrap this wasteful policy on a matter that you do not have to spend money on and instead put the people of Wales and our public services first?

This is—. This is a dreadful way for us to carry on. I think it's really important for us to focus on the things that matter to the people of Wales. And let me tell you: listen, this dog-whistle politics of trying to compete with Reform is not going to get you anywhere, Darren, and you know it. You know it. And let me tell you: you were in the front line of people telling us that we had to hold out our hand and help the people of Ukraine. You were the first person there. That's where the nation of sanctuary money is going. The vast, vast majority of it was spent on supporting people from Ukraine for years and years. You supported that, Darren. You cannot change your mind because we've got an election coming up and you find Reform breathing down your neck. You don't really believe this stuff, Darren. You don't really believe this stuff. The important thing for us to understand is that dividing our communities is not going to help any of us. The political temperature in this country is high enough already; it doesn't need you to add fire to the flames.

The leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. It's exactly a year, First Minister, since the Labour Governments in the UK and Wales announced what they called a cross-border health plan, which would, according to Jo Stevens, the Secretary of State for Wales, lead to more surgical procedures. Can the First Minister provide an update on this programme and how many more patients from Wales have been treated in England over the past 12 months?

Well, I can tell you that the ministerial advisory group, which was brought in to make sure that we could learn from the rest of the United Kingdom what they were doing well, what perhaps we could teach them, reported and made sure that it gave us ideas of how we could see improvements in the NHS in Wales. So, that was an important step. I can give you numbers as to the number of people who are treated in England from Wales—this is not something new; this has always, always happened—if you want me to find those numbers for you. But I think it's probably worth pointing out as well that the number of people from England who choose to have their GPs in Wales is significantly higher than the other way around. 

That was even vaguer than I expected. I appreciate that the First Minister may not have precise figures to hand, so I'd be grateful if she would write to me with that information on the increase, if there has been any, in patients treated in England since that announcement exactly a year ago. But we have learned, since then, of bureaucratic problems in making cross-border referrals. That's what the British Medical Association have said. Also, the Powys health board, of course, asked to slow down how many patients are sent for treatment because of financial constraints, which seems completely at odds with what the First Minister said a year ago.

Now, in March, the Welsh Affairs Committee asked both Governments for more detail on their cross-border health plans, but, in his response in May, the Cabinet Secretary for health makes no reference at all to more surgical procedures. Isn't it really the case that, as we suspected at the time, this announcement was little more than something to announce at conference, with a lot of fanfare, but very little substance?

There are too many people waiting for too long on waiting lists in Wales, and it's right that we give every opportunity to try and clear those, and if that means sending some people to England, so be it. That's particularly true in Powys, which is on the border. I don't make any apologies for that. I think it's really important that we take advantage of that. And the fact is that the longest waiting times have fallen by 85 per cent from their peak in March. It is a key commitment of the Welsh Government. I think it's probably worth pointing out that we had record-breaking news in the last statistics that came out: 5,000 out-patients every single day being seen in the NHS—that's the highest number on record; 2,300 people started their cancer treatment—again, the highest number on record; and 15,000 people told the good news that they don't have cancer. That's the second highest number on record. The number of people using and getting a good service from our NHS is something that we should be proud of. It is important to recognise that we've seen a 45 per cent increase in the number of medical and dental staff in Wales in the past 10 years.

Yes, and I guess that goes to show how poorly the Welsh Government has been performing on preventative health. Listen, to those of us in the north and representing mid Wales, we know that patients from Wales have always gone across the border. That's how it works. And you're right that patients cross the other way too, particularly in primary care, but I'm starting to conclude from this session here that nothing has happened as a result of that announcement a year ago, which, it seems, was all about fanfare.

Let's look at what else the Welsh Government deployed as part of its suite of measures to bring down the longest waiting times. It set itself a target for the period between April and June this year of—and I quote here—'maintaining and improving the reduction in over-two-year waits from the March 2025 position.' That was to continue through April and on to June. It committed £20 million towards that particular endeavour, but two-year waits only came down by less than 1,000 in that period, and by now the net reduction since March is less than 400. Was that the outcome the First Minister had hoped for during that time frame, meaning a spend of £20,000 per patient, or was she expecting the numbers to come down over a longer period of time? If so, why are they now going back up again?

Those figures are not correct. Let me tell you that the NHS was born of the Labour Party and holds Labour Party values. We will hold to those values. We will maintain free prescriptions, maintain free car parking spaces, and we will make sure that we continue giving 2.7 million appointments every month, in a population of 3 million people.

Let me tell you that over the next three to six months you are going to see more. You're going to see more from weekend operating lists. You're going to see more from community diagnostics. You're going to see a new orthopaedic centre opened in north Wales with faster referrals. Fifteen thousand out-patient appointments are being provided in Wales in September alone; 20,000 cataract operations between now and the end of March. It is important for us to recognise that all that money is there because we've had an extra £1.6 billion from the UK Government—money that you tried to block.

Welsh Labour is getting things done in Blaenau Gwent. We have a new high-value engineering skills centre, a £10 million jobs pilot, 10 years of Aspire apprenticeships. So, that's hundreds of young people being given real opportunities, real skills and real jobs. On top of that, we've seen £44 million of investment into Tech Valleys, building space for new industries and creating future jobs.

I thank the First Minister for that. Last Thursday, I spent the evening with a group of young people who had just completed the Aspire shared apprenticeship programme. This is a programme that is led by Blaenau Gwent County Borough Council and delivered by colleges and local employers. It gives young people the best possible start in life. Do you agree with me, First Minister, that we need to be investing in those young people to ensure that we have the skills available to drive forward the economy in the Heads of the Valleys and, alongside the hard infrastructure investment that we've been making in the dualling of the A465—which, of course, was opposed by the Conservatives and delayed by Plaid Cymru—that we need to be investing in skills, in the people, to ensure that the future of Blaenau Gwent has a robust foundation, that we can ensure that people do have the opportunities in the borough and across the Heads of the Valleys?

Well, thanks very much, and it's an incredibly inspiring programme, the Aspire Blaenau Gwent apprenticeship scheme. I know about 200 apprentices have been through there. It's won the Enginuity Alliance collaboration award, it's won the large employer of the year at Apprenticeship Awards Cymru, and it's a wonderful approach, where what you have is a programme where apprentices are employed by Aspire Blaenau Gwent, and then they're placed with a host manufacturing company. So, this Government is committed to improving skills in places like Blaenau Gwent, and it's wonderful to see the skills that we have there, and the skills that were used by some people on developing the A465 upgrade. That is changing lives, it's making a difference, and it's expanding the opportunities for people in your area.

First Minister, the first wave of students have started studying at the new high-value engineering campus in Blaenau Gwent. This new facility will offer high-tech training and education for young people in business, robotics and advanced manufacturing in fields such as automotive, aerospace and information technology. Undoubtedly, this will unlock big benefits for Blaenau Gwent and surrounding areas, creating a pipeline of highly skilled engineers and boosting economic development in the area. Not only is this great news for the region, but it's also good news for the country as a whole, and I look forward to seeing the facility go from strength to strength. I would argue that this is a great example of higher education and further education working together in a model of best practice. Colleges and universities should be encouraged to work collaboratively to deliver the higher level skills that individuals, employers and the wider Welsh community so desperately need. Investing in skills and education is an important step in boosting our economic development. So, First Minister, what action is the Welsh Government going to be taking to complement the HiVE development to further enhance the economic benefits for Blaenau Gwent and my region of south-east Wales? Thanks.

Well, there's a huge amount of work being done in that area, including one of the three economic and activity trailblazers. There's a Blaenau Gwent pilot, and I think it's really important that we work with the UK Government, if we can, to make sure that we really try and encourage people, and particularly those with long-term health conditions and disabled people and those with caring responsibilities, to get into the jobs market. So, that trailblazing project, hopefully, will then lead on to people taking up those opportunities in those colleges that you suggested.

James—. Apologies, James, I need to call the question first. That's warned you now—you're about to be called.

Question 4, Jane Dodds.

Well, I'm proud that Wales allows people who need to move into a care home to keep more of their own money, more than in any other part of the United Kingdom. We're also very proud of the fact that our workforce is properly valued and we provide funding to make sure that every care worker in Wales is paid at least the real living wage. And, on top of that, we've invested £18 million to deliver new care home beds across Wales for both children and adults.

Thank you for the response.

Beds in care homes are only part of the answer in this particular situation. Right now, around one in seven hospital beds is occupied by somebody who is ready to go home, but stuck because they can't get the support that they need. In Powys hospitals, as of 2 September, 52 per cent of patients were ready for discharge, yet remained in hospital waiting for care assessments or agreed support. As we all know, every day that they stay, they lose strength, independence and confidence. And we know that, across Wales, capacity is stretched. We have fewer than 700 care homes, and fewer than 100 are run by local authorities. Social care is in crisis. So, I'd be interested, First Minister: how do we really fund our social care services to make sure that hospitals are for health and not for social care? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thanks very much, Jane. This is one of the big, really knotty issues of our time, and I know your commitment to social care in particular, and children's care. We are aware that more needs to be done in relation to improving the numbers of delayed transfers of care, and that's why we put more money in it, and thank you for your support for that in last year's budget, because we had £30 million extra as a result of your support. That has helped us to bring those figures down. The August figure shows that we got 257 more people out of hospital in a timely fashion compared to the previous August. I think that is something that we should recognise, that there's an improvement. There's a long way to go.

But this was also boosted by the 50-day challenge that the health Secretary introduced last year. In Powys itself, we know that boosting domiciliary care is critical, attracting people to do that work. What they've been doing there is there has been a project officer working with health boards to smooth discharges by using trusted assessors. That speeds up the process. Sometimes they're just waiting for an assessment. You need more trusted assessors. It's being done really well in some health boards, not so well in others, but things are improving now as a result of that.

First Minister, as all of us know in this Chamber, to fix the NHS we have to fix social care. We've heard about delayed discharges and the issues between health boards and local authorities arguing about who is paying for the care of that individual once they are discharged from hospital. This has gone on long enough and it has become, I believe, too much of a political football being kicked back and forth. It needs sorting once and for all. I'm a firm believer that we need a royal commission to look at how social care is structured and how it works, not just here in Wales, but across the whole of the United Kingdom. I can see the Cabinet Secretary shaking his head, but I don't think he's come up with any ideas yet of how we actually sort out social care across our country. First Minister, do you agree with me that actually what we need to do is have that royal commission that takes those independent voices a step back, away from politics, to bring forward recommendations of how we can sort out social care once and for all, because, unfortunately, the way we're doing it now is not working?

Thanks very much. I know there is a group working at the UK level on this already and we are actually talking to them about what exactly is going on in relation to that.

Thank you very much to Jane Dodds for this question. Of course, she has listed the serious problems that we have with care in our homes and the need for more beds. But what we all know is that the best thing for patients is to get this care as close to home as possible.

So, in north Wales, we have a very good example. Betsi Cadwaladr is criticised for a number of things, but they have developed an innovative programme, the Tuag Adref programme, which has proved very successful in ensuring the provision of care at home for people who need it. What lessons have you learned from the Tuag Adref programme, and can we see that programme being rolled out across Wales before too long?

Thank you very much. I've seen people working on the Tuag Adref programme. It is working very well in some places; not across all of the Betsi area, but in some areas, particularly the Porthmadog area. Every health board has its own version of Tuag Adref. They call them different things, and I do think that it is important that we do recognise that we need to adapt to what's appropriate for those communities. So, what's appropriate for rural areas perhaps isn't appropriate for other areas. So, it is important that the health boards have the flexibility to respond in the way that works for them.

We are aware, of course, of the demand, that it's such that we will need to increase the number of beds in our care homes right across Wales. To do this, we obviously, hand in hand, need to increase the workforce sustainably. A significant number of the current social care workers are migrant workers, who are admired, respected and appreciated for their very hard work. First Minister, what discussions is the Welsh Government having with the UK Government to ensure that those members of our long-standing, dedicated care sector workforce are able to remain in Wales, and that we can also continue to attract overseas workers in order to build and increase the capacity in our care homes?

Thank you very much. I think you're right to highlight the fact that many of our care homes are utterly dependent on people making a contribution who have not been born in Wales. It was interesting to see Mario Kreft, from your area, making that very point yesterday, and recognising that some of the proposals that are being put forward by Nigel Farage and his Reform party would make a massive, massive problem for our care sector. So, you're quite right: what is important is that we emphasise the contribution that these people are making to our communities and recognise that, one day, maybe our parents will be old, maybe we will be old, and we will be hoping that somebody will be there to look after us. If we carry on like this, it will be worth people taking a deep breath and realising there'll be nobody there to help us out.

I want to thank the Member for Mid and West Wales for bringing forward this question. It is a genuine concern that many are stuck in hospital and not able to get into care homes for many of the reasons that have been outlined, and it has created a postcode lottery of where that is better in some areas of Wales than others. We are desperate for more care home places, but they are in short supply and with private care homes closing by the day, and those that are open fighting for survival, the problem is being exacerbated. If we do increase the number of care beds in care homes, will we actually have the sufficient amount of staff or carers for the patients in these beds?

As has been said, we are desperate for home-grown carers, but because of the health and social care courses now being more academic than practical, and people being able to be paid more in supermarkets than in care homes, we do have that recruitment problem, and I'd like to know what the Government is going to do about that, but also how you are going to keep care homes open because of the rising energy and food costs, social care budgets being cut across Wales and the national insurance and minimum wage problems. It's all creating a perfect storm against keeping care homes open, so I'd appreciate your thoughts on that. Diolch.

This is the first intervention at First Minister's questions for the newly minted defector from the Tories, and I think it's worth noting that she's one of a long list of Tories; when they see the writing on the wall, they're jumping ship. The Reform party in Wales is the Tory party wrapped in a teal flag—we all know that—Thatcherite apologists who want to divide our communities. The values of Reform do not chime with the values of our nation, and I, for one, reject the kind of language and hate and division that we're seeing from that party.

Let me tell you, in relation to this particular question, the statement made by her party leader last night in relation to care would decimate the care sector in Wales. This is not a serious party. Your party leader would make things a lot worse and you would not be there to sweep up the mess you have made, like you made with Brexit. We are still sweeping up after the devastating results of the Brexit vote in Wales. People recognise now that that was a mistake, that it was a problem, that they are seeing money leaving their communities rather than being injected into it.

Small businesses are the backbone of our economy, providing 60 per cent of jobs in Wales, and that's why Welsh Labour backs them through Business Wales support, Development Bank of Wales support and green loans to cut bills.

Thank you, First Minister. I can put on record that there's one Conservative here who will not be going to Reform. [Interruption.]

Okay, that's generated a lot of—

Yes, that's taken a lot of my time. Sorry.

—speculation about others. [Laughter.]

First Minister, as you know, inflation has remained at a two-year high of 3.8 per cent, far from the Bank of England's target of 2.5 per cent, which we left in office. To make matters worse, unemployment has risen continuously, thanks to the obvious policies of the rise in national insurance contributions, which only make it harder for SMEs to employ staff, which, in turn, stifles growth.

It's clear that your colleagues in Westminster are unable to balance the books, and having maxed out the country's credit card, are paving the way for more tax rises to come in November. With this in mind, First Minister, what conversations have you had with your colleagues in Westminster about the need to protect SMEs in Wales from the impact of another round of growth-stunting tax rises, recognising that they are the lifeblood of our Welsh economy? I know the stock answer will be that it's not an area for devolved Government, but Labour Ministers here had no qualms about standing up to the Westminster Government when we were in control.

Look, we absolutely recognise that growing the private sector is key to economic prosperity, and SMEs are fundamental to that. They're responsible for the majority of jobs in our country: 62 per cent of all business employment. It was great to be at the Abergavenny food festival on the weekend, to see the hundreds of different small companies there trading their wares. 

From a Welsh perspective, we are doing what we can to support small and medium-sized enterprises. Business Wales, for example, supported the creation of over 37,000 jobs and over 8,500 new start-up businesses, so SMEs are at the heart of our economic mission. We're helping them with support to export and we've seen huge advances in relation to that as well.

SMEs are not all the same. My office window cleaner is an SME, the butcher I use is an SME, market traders in Swansea are SMEs. Then we have SMEs with high-growth potential in areas such as ICT, life sciences and computer games. Examples of companies starting as SMEs and then growing into large companies are Hewlett-Packard, formed by Bill Hewlett and David Packard, in a one-car garage; Google, which started out as a research project by Larry Page and Sergey Brin, who were PhD students; Grand Theft Auto began from the humble origins of Scottish developer DMA Designs. Does the First Minister agree that we need high-growth, high-value SMEs in expanding sectors, and how is the Welsh Government going to support their growth?

Thanks very much, and it's good to have that question because we are supporting SMEs. We have our own list of SMEs who have gone from being small companies to growing and making a major contribution. Let me just give you some examples of Welsh companies who've done that very thing: Redrow, they started as an SME; Moneypenny; PHS; MoneySuperMarket; Veezu. All of these companies started off as SMEs and grew. So, we've got our own examples. What is important, I think, is that for all our economic development, and even in our public services, what's important is that we see better productivity. We need to use new technology to drive productivity. It's good to see that productivity rates in Wales are growing at a much faster pace than they are in England, at 1.3 per cent compared with 0.2 per cent in the United Kingdom.

Thank you very much. It's very important that people in our communities see the police as a reflection of themselves. That's the only way we will maintain our unique approach in the UK, namely policing by consent. Policing is the responsibility of the UK Government, but the Welsh Government maintains an active dialogue with the police.

Thank you very much, First Minister, for your response. Of course, policing in Wales is different to policing in England, but unfortunately, that's not reflected in the recruitment process at present. Through the College of Policing, candidates now have to make an application, then they have to undertake an assessment online, and then a psychometric test online. Unfortunately, unless Welsh police forces provide additional funding, the College of Policing refuses to do the online tests and the psychometric tests through the medium of Welsh. They say that people have to prove through strong evidence that Welsh speakers are at a disadvantage in undertaking these tests through the medium of English. This is an old argument that has been refuted decades ago. The great pity, of course, is that the police forces have to comply with regulations set by the Welsh Language Commissioner, so this has happened under this situation. First Minister, what can the Welsh Government do to ensure that the recruitment processes are available through the medium of Welsh, so that Welsh speakers and Welsh communities are not discriminated against? Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. As I said, policing is a UK Government responsibility, but the College of Policing does implement a voluntary Welsh language scheme. They understand that they need to improve the way that they deal with bilingualism when they recruit, and they do say that they are working towards offering the language of choice at the national assessment centre, which, as you say, is an online process. So, the process is in the initial phases. It's likely to change, from what I understand, but, in the meantime, instructions for candidates will be available bilingually, and they will have an opportunity to undertake part of the test bilingually.

The Welsh Labour Government has transformed schools across Wales, with £3.7 billion invested and 330 projects built. Thousands of pupils now learn in modern, digital-ready classrooms. We're rolling out 329 more projects, worth over £5.54 billion—net-zero schools, community schools and schools built for the future.

Can I thank the First Minister for that answer? In Rhondda Cynon Taf, the education Minister and I have, almost every other month, been attending the opening of new schools, and it is tremendous to see the impact that has on the morale of those students. The figures I have show that, over the past decade, £2.8 billion has been invested in Wales under this programme. There is no other programme in the United Kingdom like this particular one; there is nothing like it in England. If we did a consequential comparison with England, it would be a £55 billion investment programme.

I had intended to read out the names of the schools in Rhondda Cynon Taf, but there are too many of them to do so. What I am really concerned with is to ensure that, as we go forward into the next Senedd, the twenty-first century schools programme will continue. We still have work to be done in developing the schools. I wonder what your thoughts are and what guarantees you can give us that we will continue that programme and that we continue giving our pupils the schools of the twenty-first century standard that they deserve.

Thank you very much. I think this is one of our proudest achievements as a Government. It has been a long-term, serious commitment; it has gone on year after year. We are seeing the fruits of that across our whole nation, and it is transforming the way children learn in Wales—in modern, technologically ready, inspiring classrooms. It is really transforming the atmosphere and the conditions for pupils in Wales to thrive. It was brought home, I think, in a very real way when the reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete issue really made lots and lots of schools in England close. We had, I think, two or three examples in Wales only, so it was very, very different because of that long-term investment. So, yes, we are proud of what we’ve done, and, obviously, we will be looking to continue this in the future.

The Welsh Government is taking action to tackle obesity and protect the next generation. We will, of course, work with the United Kingdom Government, but we won't wait for them. We're acting to make healthier choices easier, banning junk food promotions in shops and pushing reformulation in the food industry, and we'll be publishing a new 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' delivery plan very soon. 

I acknowledge the fantastic work done by Lynne Neagle in her previous role as Deputy Minister for health, as well as her current role as Cabinet Secretary for Education. We know that unhealthy diets are now the main cause of early death and the main drivers of demand for treatment of heart disease, cancer and diabetes. As the UK Government appears to continue to be reluctant to tax the ultra-processed foods that dominate our food industry, how can we, in Wales, ensure that everybody has healthy food, knowing that some communities are fresh food deserts? What consideration has the Welsh Government given to cleaning up public procurement of food, so that we support Welsh companies to feed our children, rather than importing chicken from Thailand and processed food laden with palm oil that comes mainly from Egypt?

Thanks very much. There's a lot of work that needs to be done in this space, and thank you for your enthusiasm to drive forward change, because it is a critical issue, I think, in terms of how we make sure we have a healthy nation in the future. There are already mandatory food standards for healthcare and education settings, and they need to follow mandatory nutritional standards for their learners and their patients. Obviously, we're updating the Healthy Eating in Schools (Nutritional Standards and Requirements) (Wales) Regulations 2013 at the moment.

It is important, I think, for us to recognise also that there are other things—and I'm sure this will be pointed out when the 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' delivery plan will be published, soon. But I'd just like to welcome the recent announcements from the Vale of Glamorgan Council and Cardiff Council around restricting the advertising of food and drink high in fat, sugar and salt. That will make a difference, I think, in our communities, particularly to young people.

Thank you, First Minister.

The business statement and announcement is next, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip to make the statement. Jane Hutt.

Thank you, Llywydd. On today's agenda, there are two additional oral statements. The Business Committee has agreed to provide less time for Senedd Commission questions tomorrow. The business for the next three weeks is shown on the business statement, which is available to Members electronically.

Trefnydd, I'd be grateful if we could have a statement from the Welsh Government regarding planning in special areas of conservation. As you know, I raised this issue before the summer, following concerns from local businesses in my constituency. Since then, it has been confirmed that in Pembrokeshire, all planning applications that are in the Milford inner water body area, which is the vast majority of inland Pembrokeshire, will have to demonstrate nutrient neutrality, and yet there's no formal guidance from Natural Resources Wales to support those submitting applications. This barrier could bring developments in a large area of Pembrokeshire to a standstill at a massive cost to the local economy. Trefnydd, I'm sure you will agree with me that this is not acceptable, and so I'd be grateful if we could have an urgent statement from the Welsh Government, so that planning authorities and businesses can be confident that developments in Pembrokeshire can continue to take place.

Diolch yn fawr, Paul Davies. These are important issues. They are issues that are being addressed by the Welsh Government, but also, obviously, in partnership with public bodies' responsibilities and with local government as well. It is important that we update. I am sure that the Welsh Government and Cabinet Secretaries will look for opportunities to update. As you say, we need to ensure that we protect special areas of conservation, but also look to development needs.

May I request a debate in Government time on the rights of renters—that is, people who rent in the private sector? Before long, renters in Wales will have fewer rights than those over the border. With the passing of the Renters' Rights Bill in Westminster very soon, that's expected to happen. For example, no-fault eviction will come to an end in England, which is to be welcomed, of course, but this will continue to exist in Wales. There will be other differences too, a number of differences, which will mean that the rights of renters will be less here in Wales as compared to other nations within the UK. So, could I ask, because of the importance of this issue, for a debate in Government time?

Thank you very much, Siân Gwenllian, for your very important question.

We have already, of course, through the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016, put in robust measures to help protect tenants, and of course that was supported by the Senedd as the right policy approach for us in Wales. It's a system that ensures tenants are given sufficient time to plan and find a new home when there are those occasions where landlords are able to serve notice to regain their properties. It is vital that we do have that opportunity for tenants to have the time to plan. Therefore, those reforms extended the notice period from two months to six months to provide tenants that additional time, and also stipulated that a notice can’t be served in the first six months of tenancy. Clearly now we have the legislation coming forth by the UK Government. Obviously, there is an opportunity to look at this in terms of where we are now in terms of our legislation responsibility and our recognition of the rights of renters as well.

Trefnydd, on Friday evening in Narberth, one of their rugby players suffered a suspected neck injury at 8 p.m. The 999 operator told them not to move the individual and to wait for an ambulance. In the pouring rain, the injured player and those looking after him were left lying on the cold, wet ground until the ambulance finally arrived at 2.20 a.m., over six hours later. This is simply unacceptable. Ambulance response times in rural Wales must improve, so I urgently call for a statement that sets out clearly how this Government will prevent such distressing delays in the future.

Secondly, your advice please, Trefnydd. I wrote to the economy Secretary on 4 March regarding a serious constituency matter. Despite chasing in June, August and again in September, I’ve yet to receive a reply. Can you tell me how I should proceed and what I should tell my constituents?

Thank you very much for both those questions, Sam Kurtz. It is very concerning to hear about the rugby player in Narberth who was injured. Clearly, on ambulance response times, every minute of every day they are responding appropriately and timely to those calls. Indeed, it is important that you are very aware of the statistics in terms of ambulance response times and meeting those. You have raised this issue in terms of one regrettable incident, and I am sure you will be raising that directly with the ambulance service for an update and explanation.

I am very happy for you to share that letter to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning so that I can ensure that you do get a response to your constituent.

Trefnydd, I’d like to request a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for transport on what the Welsh Government is doing to tackle freight crime and improve infrastructure for freight transport in Wales. I recently had the privilege of meeting with RF Bellis on Wrexham industrial estate, along with the Road Haulage Association, and they explained to me the persistent problem that comes with a lack of proper infrastructure for freight here in Wales. The rise in cargo theft, particularly from poorly secured truck stops and rest areas, is putting real pressure on their business and businesses like them up and down Wales. It’s a sector that we rely on every single day for transporting those goods that we all need. Despite repeated calls from industry professionals, Wales still lacks adequate secure parking and investment on those key freight routes. Can I ask that we have a statement outlining how the Government plans to work with the industry, strengthen infrastructure and work with partners to reduce freight crime? Thank you.

Thank you very much for that question, Sam Rowlands. It is an important question that I know that the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales is engaging with in terms of freight theft. It is a major issue, which I know the Cabinet Secretary has discussed with the sector. You are probably aware of that. The Cabinet Secretary will be making a statement on freight and logistics after the final meeting of the Holyhead logistics working group.

Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. I wonder if I could request two statements from yourself, as the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice. The first is on the safety of people in refugee accommodation. In recent weeks, we've seen troubling protests across the country, where refugees and asylum seekers have faced harassment and intimidation. Some support organisations have even had to close services or install safe rooms. Yet we know that conditions inside accommodation are also unsafe, with research by the Helen Bamber Foundation revealing strangers forced to share rooms without locks, belongings stolen and children left hungry or sleeping on the floor. So, I'd like to ask you what urgent steps the Welsh Government is taking to keep people safe and prevent homelessness here in Wales.

My second statement is a request, from yourself again, with regard to a cross-party letter that we sent from the Senedd in regard to the situation in Gaza, sent to the First Minister on 1 August. I'm grateful that my office received a response about an hour ago. Thank you for that. In that letter, though, you say that the Welsh Government is not involved in any arms exports, and has not been involved in those since October 2023. However, Amnesty International, on 23 July 2025, reported that the Welsh Government had awarded public funds to a weapons manufacturer that exports military equipment to Israel, and that they awarded £0.5 million in grant funding to Senior, which exports military equipment directly to Israel. So, please, could I ask for your response, either here or in writing, specifically to the issue of the Welsh Government not being involved in arms exports to Israel, or perhaps, if they are, then please outline what the situation is. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you, Jane Dodds, for both those important—very important—questions. As you're aware, of course, in relation to hotels, particularly, being used for sanctuary seekers, the UK Government is responsible for the provision of that accommodation. But what we do, in terms of Wales, is play our role in supporting the dispersal plan, and we're committed to supporting those in need. But also we have to recognise—and I will be obviously commenting on your points today—our two colleagues in the UK Government. But I would say today that I am very proud that the Welsh Government has a nation of sanctuary vision. I have to say I'm still recovering from the shock of hearing that the Welsh Conservatives no longer support Wales to be a nation of sanctuary. I cannot believe that every member of the Welsh Conservative group signs up to that. If you do, I'm so disappointed. Because this is a vision that we have to enable anyone who is placed in Wales to begin to integrate from day one.

I have to say also that I visited a hotel in my constituency on Friday that is providing a temporary place of sanctuary for people from Afghanistan, who have been in camps for the last four years because they supported our British armed forces in Afghanistan. And they have to suffer every week the far right on the doorstep shouting at them, shouting at people who have escaped from conflict as a result of the fact that they supported our British armed forces. These are the people that we support, and these are the people who want to make a contribution to Wales, to our economy, to our communities and society. So, I hope we will be able to—certainly, those of us on this side of the Chamber will be, I'm sure—make the same comments as you have today, in terms of our support for the nation of sanctuary vision.

I will look, obviously, in terms of those issues you raise where the UK Government has that responsibility in terms of accommodation for sanctuary seekers. I hope you will recognise and respect what I've said about those people we're supporting, who supported our British armed forces, who are now in our community in Wales, who I went to give a welcome to, alongside the local vicar from the village next door, who are helping these residents, these citizens of Afghanistan. The children are going to attend our local schools, and that will strengthen the schools, as well as their own opportunity to learn English.

Your second point, Jane, is really important, and I apologise you have only had a letter today to the cross-party group of Senedd Members who signed that letter to the First Minister. It actually came after, again, a very powerful point where we stood together at a cross-party event on the last day of term. I can again assure you that we have absolutely no engagement as a Welsh Government with firms that are providing arms to Israel. In fact, I was able, last week again, to put the record straight about a company that's doing work in terms of automotives, which was raised last week in the Senedd. I'll write to you again to reassure you that we do not have—. I was very clear in my statement.

Also, just to say, I've mentioned the nation of sanctuary, I've mentioned your letter—. Tomorrow I hope that colleagues across the Senedd will come and join Christian Aid, who are going to be outside the Senedd inviting people of all faiths and backgrounds to unite in a call to prayer and witness for peace. This follows on from 21 September, Sunday, the United Nations International Day of Peace—world peace day. They will be coming outside, and I hope we will form part of that witness.

Could I have a statement, please? As many of us Members know, in the Betsi health board, vascular services have been disastrous for my constituents in Aberconwy. We now have a situation where 2,648 are waiting over 36 weeks, and that is despite the fact that there's meant to be a long-standing co-operation now with the Royal Stoke University Hospital. Two of those people on that waiting list came into my office on Friday. To be honest, I was actually quite upset after they left. One man had weeping, open ulcers and sores on his leg, and he's been like that for several months. In fact, he maintains it could be well over a year. What exactly is going on in the Betsi Cadwaladr health board regarding vascular services? I had another case on the Friday, and to say that it was disgusting that this individual hadn't been seen for well over a year—it's just not good enough. Vascular services are life-threatening services. Could you please update me on what exactly is going on in the Betsi Cadwaladr health board in terms of the vascular services?

Thank you very much, Janet Finch-Saunders. I'm grateful that you have brought this to our attention today. Vascular services are really important. I'm sure you will have taken this up with the Betsi Cadwaladr board—

I'm taking it up with you here.

The Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board is responsible for the vascular services, but you have raised it on the floor of the Senedd today, which obviously adds strength to the examples you gave. You need to give those examples directly to the health board—

I always do.

—and today you've put it on the record.

She's supposed to respond to a question—a business question.

She is responding. You may not like the response, but she is responding, so please let her respond. Laura Anne Jones.

Diolch. Trefnydd, in Newport there are 2,872 houses of multiple occupation that we know of. Hundreds are now in high concentration in areas such as my local city. This is putting intense pressure on communities, leaving residents feeling unsafe and feeling anxious. Residents have also told me of a rise in crime in those areas where HMOs are now in increasing concentration. In Caerphilly planning officers admit they don't even know exactly how many HMOs exist in the borough, but estimate there are over 200 unlicensed HMOs housing asylum seekers. These aren't isolated incidents or examples, we have a similar situation in other parts of Wales too. I therefore request an oral statement from the Welsh Government providing up-to-date statistics on exactly where HMOs are across Wales, and what plans are in place to ensure the safety of my residents and those living in areas of high concentration of HMOs across Wales. Diolch.

Clearly, HMOs—houses of multiple occupation—are very clearly regulated and licensed. And, of course, Newport council takes its responsibilities, in terms of housing provision, addressing housing need, very seriously. And, indeed, you will of course be aware of our ambitious housing programme for social housing in Wales. I do regret the way in which you asked that question, because, again, it goes back to how many times are we going to have to say today that Wales stands by our nation of sanctuary, it stands by those people seeking sanctuary here in Wales, seeking to integrate, particularly, as I have given you a very clear example today, those sanctuary seekers who flee conflict, but who are also here because they've served the armed forces. Please, I will repeat that we have a strong commitment to community cohesion, we fund community cohesion co-ordinators across Wales. When I visit Newport, I value the diversity and the vibrance of that city in every respect.

I'd like to raise a statement from the Welsh Government representative in charge of the economy, as it's a sad day for my constituents today, as today marks the final day of trading of the Halifax branch in Rhyl after many, many decades of that bank, and previously building society, operating on Russell Road in the town. We've seen swathes of bank closures along the coast in Denbighshire, in Rhyl and Prestatyn, which serves (a) the elderly population and (b) areas of poverty, which, statistically, are more reliant on cash. I was successful in securing an access-to-cash hub in Denbigh, which is further inland to the coast, but we really need to see a banking presence being maintained on the coast in Denbighshire in order for those people to have access to cash. I'm looking for a statement from the Welsh Government, as to what conversations you're having with leaders of the banking industry and any other relevant stakeholders as to how we maintain access to cash for people in deprived areas and, indeed, the elderly too.

Thank you very much, Gareth Davies. This is very much a joint Welsh Government response—. Well, it's a UK Government responsibility principally, but in terms of the ways in which we engage as a Welsh Government, the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning and myself as Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice engage with the leading banks and building societies. We've been devastated across Wales, haven't we, in terms of the loss of those branches. I congratulate you on playing your part in terms of getting an access-to-cash hub. I'm very proud of the funding that we're putting into credit unions. So, I will accept the request for a statement and, between us, we will make sure that we provide a statement across Welsh Government to address these important issues you raise.

And finally, Mark Isherwood. 

Diolch. I call for a single Welsh Government statement on support for people with migraine in the workplace. This week is Migraine Awareness Week. Migraine is widely misunderstood as just a headache, yet it is a serious neurological condition causing debilitating pain, visual disturbances and nausea, affecting one in seven people in Wales—nearly 0.5 million individuals.

Research released this week by the Migraine Trust, 'Challenging stigma: the urgent need to improve workplace support for people with migraine', highlights the shocking disadvantages faced by people with migraine in the workplace. Findings show that 60 per cent of employers would hesitate to hire a qualified candidate with migraine. Additionally, 15 per cent of sufferers have had to move from full-time to part-time work, and 19 per cent have been forced to leave employment entirely, at significant cost to the economy, a situation I'm sure you'll agree is both sad and unnecessary.

Straightforward, low-cost adaptations and a change in workplace culture can be transformative for many people with migraine and their ability to work. I urge all Members of the Senedd to support the Migraine Trust in raising awareness and improving understanding of this important issue, and I call for a statement from the Welsh Government accordingly.

Thank you very much Mark Isherwood. As so often, you have brought forward a very important topic today in the business statement, and I thank you for that. I will say that we recognise the debilitating effects of migraines. We continue to work with the NHS to improve care services and access to services. It's Migraine Awareness Week, and it's important, and we've all heard how we should address this in the workplace as well. It's a chronic condition. We do have the all-Wales headache toolkit, which supports front-line clinical teams in diagnosing and planning care for people experiencing different types of headaches, including migraine. But also, as you drew attention to the workplace particularly, I will refer your question and your point to the Minister for social partnership in terms of our engagement with social partners.

Thank you, Trefnydd. 

Item 3 is the statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Education and is an update on the curriculum roll-out. I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Lynne Neagle.

Thank you. Dirprwy Lywydd, I welcome the opportunity to update Members on our continued progress with the Curriculum for Wales, a curriculum that shows our commitment to ambition, equity and inclusion, and the belief that every child in Wales deserves the best start in life. As we come to the end of the roll-out of the Curriculum for Wales, I want to recognise the hard work and commitment of schools in getting us here, and we are seeing the results of that dedication. Personalised assessments data is showing improvements in reading and numeracy, and we see schools in increasing numbers embedding this new, engaging, purpose-driven approach to learning. Estyn’s latest review shows schools developing purposeful curricula for their children, investing in high-quality teaching and assessment, and focusing on learning relevant to the real world.

In my visits to schools and other educational settings, I have witnessed the transformative impact of the curriculum—how good teaching changes lives. Where educators are getting this right, they are raising the bar for learners. I know that many of us across the Chamber have the privilege of seeing inspiring practice in education, and I want to thank our education workforce for their continued efforts. Schools continue to operate in very challenging circumstances. I want to recognise their excellent work and again signal my commitment to ensure we support them.  

This month, the first cohort of children learning under the Curriculum for Wales start year 10, where they will begin work towards their qualifications within our new 14-16 learner entitlement. Ahead of this, we have taken steps to ensure that schools are well prepared. In partnership with the Welsh Government, the WJEC delivered a pan-Wales professional learning roadshow, reaching 6,500 educators during the spring. At the same time, our new education improvement team delivered a series of 14-16 leadership conferences to support secondary leadership teams with the changes to 14-16 learning, which were attended by over 580 senior leaders across Wales. All of this has been crucial in ensuring that schools have the tools and guidance needed to deliver 14-16 learning. Following the success of this approach, I recently agreed further funding to Adnodd and the WJEC to ensure this support continues this academic year for GCSEs being introduced in wave 2.  

Before the summer, I published a series of qualitative studies providing us with a picture of how the reforms are being realised in practice. I want to thank the leaders and practitioners that have contributed so far. These research reports show that schools are engaging in systematic curriculum design, but we continue to focus on improvement. Through their learning, I have made this process simpler by providing additional tools, templates and high-quality professional learning. This professional learning has already reached over 200 schools, with a further 600 set to benefit in the coming year. From the feedback of those who have taken part, we know that this is already helping schools design more engaging learning that challenges and stretches their learners. Our additional investment ensures more schools benefit. Our qualitative studies also highlight areas where the schools involved need further support. For example, some schools have been slower to change their approaches to literacy and numeracy, underlining the importance of our national support.

These findings confirm we are taking the right steps to support schools. Last year, I highlighted in this Chamber the challenges schools face as they develop and teach their curriculum. I was clear that some schools needed additional support for curriculum design, progression and assessment, and to raise standards in literacy and numeracy. I've continued to talk to schools across Wales about these issues, including through my headteacher conferences earlier this year. As a Government, we have taken decisive action to address them.

In my written statement in the summer, I highlighted the £44 million package of support for the Curriculum for Wales that I have put in place to ensure national support across priority areas. This is crucial for my priorities of literacy and numeracy—gateway skills that unlock the whole curriculum. The curriculum grants I awarded in the spring provide nationally accessible support, giving the clarity and confidence that practitioners need to move forward, guided by expertise and evidence.

Our national support for literacy, maths and numeracy includes professional learning resources, setting out more granular detail on progression in these skills. This detail will be underpinned by up-to-date research in child development, providing clearer age-related expectations linked with personalised assessments, which will give schools a clearer understanding of learners' progress. It is imperative all practitioners understand their learners' development to enable them to provide the right support at the right time to help all children progress. The first part of the detail for maths and numeracy is being released this half term, while the detail for literacy is being tested.

As part of this, I'm very happy to update Members on the award of new grants to improve literacy outcomes and to develop progression in maths in primary schools, focusing on the key building blocks of both. For literacy, this will include nationally accessible bilingual professional learning and resources, especially around the systematic teaching of phonics, and support to help schools select and implement a robust approach to phonics. It includes whole-class support as well as specific interventions for learners requiring additional support. For maths, this builds on support I announced in the spring to include national professional learning to help primary schools use the mathematical proficiencies that are key to excellent maths teaching. Our education improvement team has been working directly with local authorities to understand schools’ needs in detail and ensure our support meets these needs. This ongoing engagement will help us stay agile and responsive to the key messages that come from the sector.  

I also remain grateful for the advice and support from Estyn to the sector, with a call for high-quality professional learning, stronger collaboration between primary and secondary phases, and more purposeful opportunities to develop advanced reading skills. Estyn has identified that schools need to place a stronger focus on the progressive development of reading skills, and I welcome their intention to make reading a key focus in the coming years. This sends a clear message that literacy is everyone’s business and that we are united in our efforts to raise standards for all learners.

My grants approach is also delivering consistent national support for science, relationships and sexuality education, international languages, music and foundation learning. I will also be awarding a curriculum grant of £1.4 million to support professional understanding of computing and digital skills nationally, helping practitioners understand emerging technologies like artificial intelligence, and how to best prepare their learners in this important area. This national support is about having high expectations for our learners and giving practitioners the tools, support and confidence to help our children and young people achieve their ambitions.

I remain focused on ensuring we have the right data and information to understand and demonstrate how we’re doing as a system, and to provide assurance nationally. I set out the range of evidence we are using in my written statement before the summer. This is essential to giving us in-depth, detailed information, and will directly inform the support we provide schools and other educational settings. Our data allows us to monitor progress towards realising the Curriculum for Wales’s full potential. I will continue doing everything in my power to support educators in providing the best possible education for every child in Wales. We have a shared responsibility to get this right. Together with schools, teachers and partners, we are working to ensure every child can reach their potential. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary, for this afternoon's statement. The new curriculum was sold with a promise of innovation and flexibility, but, I fear, in reality, it risks failing our children and our young people. By moving away from clear subject-based learning, the curriculum clearly creates inconsistency across schools and leaves students vulnerable to knowledge gaps. Cabinet Secretary, you can stand here today and pat yourself on the back, saying how fantastic the curriculum actually is, but the recent Estyn report highlights aspects of poor teaching being the reason behind pupils' limited progress and highlighted a wide variation in the teaching of maths across the country. The curriculum, sadly, follows a similar model to changes made in Scotland, yet evidence from Scotland shows a worrying trend of falling academic standards. So, I really fail to understand why this Government is pressing ahead without learning from these lessons.

Teachers themselves have raised concerns about the lack of resources, training and clarity. Meaningful implementation has been patchy and burdens already stretched staff. Of course, there are some schools where the new curriculum has gone down well, and they are indeed flourishing. It is not all doom and gloom, but consistency is really key here, Cabinet Secretary. My biggest worry with the curriculum is that our children's education is becoming dependent on postcode and interpretation, rather than a shared national standard, and that concern remains. So, Cabinet Secretary, I'd like to know what you are going to do to ensure that this is not the case, and that schools are consistently supported in this area, going forward. And, perhaps more importantly, how can you guarantee that the curriculum is going to close the gap for disadvantaged children, when schools are left to interpret it so differently?

Cabinet Secretary, some schools have previously warned that one challenge the new curriculum has brought is accurately assessing children's progress. So, how is the Welsh Government going to ensure that these concerns are addressed, going forward? Continued professional development is key here, Cabinet Secretary, and there have been warnings in the past that one in-service training day for curriculum planning is just not sufficient. Will the Government be exploring an extra INSET day, or, in fact, more INSET days, to support our teachers?

Last week, I was delighted to see the Welsh Government perform a u-turn and decide to retain separate GCSEs in chemistry, physics and biology—something the Welsh Conservatives have long been campaigning for. Cabinet Secretary, the Government's original plans to create a double science GCSE instead would have removed a third of teaching hours for science subjects and risked putting Welsh pupils at a disadvantage compared to their peers in England and Scotland. However, this is a temporary reprieve, as we know a consultation over future plans is still, indeed, in progress. With the job market increasingly demanding the skills and knowledge acquired from chemistry, physics and biology, I'd like to know if the Cabinet Secretary will abandon the consultation and keep the full separate science offers going ahead. Our students deserve certainty.

One education professional told me, and I quote, 'I am in favour of a purpose-driven curriculum and, in principle, the new Welsh curriculum is good, but it doesn't seem to be very carefully thought through and planned. There is confusion around assessment, everyone doing their own thing, and lots of u-turns. Last week, it was announced that we will now be allowed to carry on with triple science, which is excellent, but this is after being told everyone had to do double science. There seems to be a big mishmash of subjects carrying on with old specs, and others doing new specs; some year groups doing one thing, others doing another. The big concern is, all the while, Welsh young people are being cut adrift from England and the rest of the world.' So, Cabinet Secretary, how do you respond to these legitimate concerns?

I want to also turn our attention to the Programme for International Student Assessment, and, Cabinet Secretary, I must say that I do welcome your confirmation that we're joining the Progress in International Reading Literacy Study and the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study. However, our PISA results remain of great concern to me, especially as a recent report had warned that educational standards in Welsh schools are continuing to decline, with our PISA results expected to fall below Romania by 2040 if current trends continue. Worryingly, the average Welsh pupil performs at the same level as England's most disadvantaged pupils, which is not something that I can say that I'm proud of. So, just how confident are you, Cabinet Secretary, that the curriculum will turn things around?

In this afternoon's statement, you declared literacy and numeracy as one of your priorities. Literacy has been a hot topic here in Wales, with shockingly high numbers of children leaving schools functionally illiterate. This is, I would argue, partly down to the Welsh Government pushing the cueing method in Welsh schools, despite it being widely discredited as a teaching method. So, can I get a cast-iron commitment from you today that, under the new curriculum, the cueing method will not be used in schools in Wales? We know, since England moved away from cueing in 2005, reading rates have increased. Our young people need consistency and structure, not an experiment that risks leaving them unprepared for the future. We need a curriculum that raises ambitions, not one that gambles with students' futures. So, Cabinet Secretary, my final question is simple: is the Curriculum for Wales about raising standards, or simply lowering expectations? Thank you.

Thank you, Natasha. If I can just start by saying that I don't think anybody in this Chamber heard me patting myself on the back. I'm very happy to pat our educational sector on the back for the hard work that they're doing. I'd be more inclined, really, to pat you on the back if you'd actually listened to some of the things that I said in my statement. It is really disappointing to hear you trotting out the same old chestnuts that I have debunked time and time again in this Chamber.

So, you claim again that the new curriculum is not a curriculum that focuses on knowledge. Absolutely untrue. Our curriculum is focused on knowledge as well as developing skills, but it's focused on using that knowledge in a purpose-driven way so that that learning is relevant and meaningful to children and young people.

You referred to maths and numeracy. You have heard me say in my answer there that numeracy as well as literacy is a top priority for this Government, and, as part of the grants that I have already announced in the spring, we have allocated over £6.6 million-worth of new funding for maths and numeracy projects to provide more consistent support and expertise for maths teaching across Wales. That's along with the granular detail that teachers have told us they want, which I just said in my statement we would be sending out to the sector at half term.

We are investing millions and millions of pounds on professional learning for our practitioners. A large chunk of my statement highlighted just how much funding we are investing in that. I acknowledged last year that some schools needed more support with curriculum roll-out, including on the issues of assessment and progression. I have just said in my statement that 200 schools have benefited from our curriculum design national support. We expect more schools to benefit this year, and that will continue to be rolled out. So, ensuring that all schools are effectively implementing the curriculum is what we are doing through that work. We've also issued a grant to Trinity St David's to ensure that good practice in curriculum design is rolled out right across Wales. So, giving schools and teachers the professional learning that they need to deliver the curriculum is a priority for us.

You raised the issue of INSET days. You are correct that we have, over the last few years, had one extra INSET day to deal with educational reforms. But that is part of a range of INSET days. INSET days themselves are not without contention with families, but we wanted to make sure that schools had that dedicated time to work on what they needed to. And as I told the committee last week, we will be evaluating the use of INSET. But, as part of the work that we're doing on the strategic workforce plan, we want to look at how we can give our school workforce more space to ensure that they can continue to develop.

If I can turn to what you described as my 'u-turn' on the triple sciences, and just remind the Member that decisions on qualifications are taken by Qualifications Wales as our independent regulator—although I do very much support the decision that they have taken to look again at this issue in three years' time. Lots of schools already offer a double award in science. That award will continue to be progressed, but schools will also have the option to continue to take individual sciences until we have that further qualification. I think it is right that Qualifications Wales has listened to the concerns that have been raised by the sector on this, but if I can also say that the sciences double award also has content that will readily support progression into A-level. And, as I said, lots of schools already offer the double award, as opposed to single sciences.

You referred to PISA, and schools are doing PISA at the moment. I'm really pleased that we have had more schools signing up this year, which is really positive, and thank you for your welcome for our participation in TIMMS and PIRLS. You then went on to link the PISA results to the report—'Devolved to Fail', I think you were talking about—which was written by Onward, which is a self-professed centre-right think tank designed to promote conservatism, and the foreword to that report is written by that well-known educational expert, Mims Davies MP. [Laughter.] So, I think we can see from that just how robust an authority that is on Welsh education. And the students that did PISA last time, which is what they are basing their data on, had never been taught under Curriculum for Wales, so it is not possible to link that to Curriculum for Wales.

I'm disappointed to hear you trot out the same old things about functional illiteracy, because that is based on very old Estyn reports, over a number of years, with an extremely small sample. We've been clear, as a Government, that improving standards in literacy is a top priority for us. We are making progress with that, as we’ve seen in the personalised assessment results this year.

In terms of phonics and cueing, I've already said that we expect phonics to be taught in schools. Our guidance is clear: learners must be taught to decode unknown words through the systematic teaching of phonics. I've taken steps to reinforce that with the sector. That has included amending the statutory guidance to make this clear, developing a new toolkit on Hwb, with case studies. Our new literacy grant has a particular focus on professional learning for the selection and use of phonics packages. And, of course, Estyn have also been clear that they expect to see phonics being taught, and that they would be telling us if they didn't. Estyn have also said that their concerns are not around early teaching of literacy in that sense; it's about the development of higher level reading skills. Their main concerns are about the development of higher level reading skills and that transition from primary to secondary school. And just to be clear once again to you, Natasha, the Curriculum for Wales does not encourage the teaching of picture cueing in order to decode words.

And I'm very happy to give you my assurance—I'm not sure what else the Curriculum for Wales would be about other than raising standards and ensuring that we can achieve the very best for our children and young people. We are aiming to do that through Curriculum for Wales in a way that engages all our young people and ensures that they can all progress to be the very best that they can be.

I thank you for the statement. Plaid Cymru has long supported a curriculum made in Wales and made for Wales. Perhaps it's appropriate, as the curriculum continues to be rolled out, that we reflect, early in its time, on what is working well and where improvements are needed. As we've already heard, the record low PISA results have underlined the urgent need to raise educational standards, and I've listened very carefully to the answers that you've given to the questions posed by Natasha Asghar. While it may be too early to assess the full impact of the new curriculum on future outcomes, that shouldn't be an excuse for delay or complacency.

Last year, you committed to consulting on a revised literacy and numeracy framework. Could you confirm whether that consultation has concluded, and what the outcomes were? Now, I heard you saying in the statement that parts of the details about maths and numeracy will be published at half term. What has happened to the other details? When will they be coming? And there's no mention of literacy outcomes in your statement on that point.

So, we know that improving literacy is central to curriculum reform. You've already referred to that. Research from the National Literacy Trust shows that one in four primary schools in Wales lacks a library. So, Plaid Cymru has pledged to guarantee that all primary schools will have library provision by 2030, as we recognise the vital role that libraries play in nurturing reading skills, especially in disadvantaged communities. This pledge responds directly to Wales's lowest ever reading score in the 2022 PISA assessment, and the finding by Estyn that over 30 per cent of primary schools needs to improve literacy development planning. So, access to high-quality reading spaces must be central to the new curriculum.

So, Cabinet Secretary, do you agree that ensuring that every primary school has a library should be a core part of improving literacy outcomes? And will you commit, as Plaid Cymru has done, to embedding this within the curriculum roll-out?

As the Curriculum for Wales rolls out, qualification reform must keep pace. The decision to retain triple science GCSEs until 2028, with full reform delayed until 2031, has prompted concerns from the Institute of Physics and the Royal Society of Chemistry. Now, this risks creating inequity between schools offering different science pathways, and means that multiple cohorts, potentially spanning over a decade, may miss out on a more inclusive and modern science education. So, what impact do you expect this delay will have on equity of opportunity between learners in schools, and what message does this send out about the value of the new qualification?

Now, Estyn's annual report also highlights that schools are struggling to develop a shared understanding of progression—you referred to this in your statement—but leaders have called for clearer national guidance on what expected progress looks like at different stages. While the current framework includes progression steps, many teachers find them too broad to support consistent assessment. So, do you accept the need to revisit how pupil progress is benchmarked, particularly in literacy and numeracy, to ensure national clarity, coherence and high standards?

And finally, I wonder if you are aware that, before the summer, Northern Ireland published its strategic curriculum review, emphasising the importance of a knowledge-rich approach. Again, I think you've touched upon this. The report's author, Lucy Crehan, has urged reflection here too. She recommends revisiting the role of knowledge, and mapping disciplinary progression alongside descriptions of learning to support subject-specific professional development. So, in light of the reassessments being done in Scotland and New Zealand, two nations like Wales, will you consider re-evaluating the role of knowledge to improve standards? Diolch.

Thank you very much, Cefin, for those points. It's great to hear your continued support for the Curriculum for Wales, and I absolutely agree with you that that shouldn't preclude us looking at what we could do better, and I'm not in any way complacent about that. As I said to Natasha, schools are doing PISA at the moment. We'll have the new set of PISA results, which will enable us to see how things are going for that age group, but we've also taken a range of steps to make sure that we can check on progress across other areas.

All children in years 4 to 9 undertake personalised assessments in numeracy, literacy and their Welsh, if they're learning through the medium of Welsh. As I said in the statement, the most recent results we've had, which were published in the spring, showed some improvement. We're looking to do more work on those, though, because at the moment, those results are held by schools. Some of the schools share those with local authorities. We get a national picture as a Government, but what I'm keen to do is get more information so that we can track pupils' progress. So, one of the things that I've said we are looking at—which goes on to the point that you made later on—is linking those assessments, which are formative assessments, to link to age-related expectation, so that we can have a much more thorough picture of how children are doing.

In terms of progression across the curriculum, we're also developing our approach to national sampling. That was something that we've been working on for a while, but because we made the decision to go into TIMSS and PIRLS, which will also give us a rich source of data, we are looking at how we need to tweak that now.

I recognise the challenges with curriculum design, progression and assessment, and that's why we've invested so much in the national support programme to help schools with those areas. The teachers who've undertaken that training have really valued it and we're continuing to roll that out on an ongoing basis.

You mentioned the literacy and numeracy framework. As I said in the statement—I think it was in the statement that I made in the summer anyway—we took a decision to delay going out to consult on the literacy and numeracy framework, because practitioners told us what they actually wanted was more granular detail for professional learning for both those areas. So, we have prioritised the development of that. We've worked closely with Estyn on it, and as I said, we'll be going out on the numeracy work about half term, and we'll go out later then on the literacy framework. I hope that we'll have a new statutory literacy and numeracy framework in place in the spring, next year. But it was important to listen to professionals and to provide them with the support that they told us they needed.

Thank you for your comments about libraries. I have to say that all the schools I've been in have got libraries. I suppose, with our new buildings, there's that much more flexibility; a library doesn't just need to be one single room, does it, that children go into? These days, we're designing schools with really wide corridors and common spaces, and I've seen lots of library provision in those spaces. I think the important thing here is that all children in school have access to books, and that those books are engaging and relevant for children with different interests. Children are individuals and they need to have access to things that are going to fire their imaginations.

I'm well aware of the curriculum review in Northern Ireland, and I've met Lucy Crehan several times, and I met her just after she completed the work on the Northern Ireland curriculum review. I also met with the New Zealand Minister of Education when I was at the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development event in Iceland. I should have said in response to Natasha, who mentioned the Scottish curriculum, that we are really keen as a Government to avoid making the mistakes that may have been made in other places, and that involves having that contact with other countries. We're also in touch with the Scots. As I say, we have taken some advice from the New Zealand Government. Now, they have swung around completely the other way, really, and I think there would be pitfalls with that, but we are having those conversations.

I'd repeat what I said to Natasha: knowledge is a key part. You can see that. It is through the curriculum what we expect children and young people to learn, but we want them to do that learning in a way that is purposeful and is relevant to their lives.

Then you said something about equity in something, but I'm struggling with my handwriting, I'll be honest on that. But, hopefully, that's covered most of the points that you've made around progression. We want everybody to have a really high-quality offer through the Curriculum for Wales, and that's why we're putting in place so many checkpoints, which I've mentioned. We're also developing a new learning entitlement information framework that will enable us to see at a glance how schools are doing. That's not about high-stakes accountability; it's about making sure that we've got the information that we need to drive progress.

Thank you for your statement. Our children learn in different ways and need a wide range of schools, which I think this helps develop. I've heard that if a child does not connect with nature before the age of 12, they might not do as an adult. Furthermore, I spoke recently with a clinical psychiatrist who told me that, at 13 years of age, young people can disconnect as they are persuaded by other attractions and distractions. Nature is good for physical and mental health and well-being, and humans are part of the natural ecosystem. That link has broken in much of modern day life.

So, Cabinet Secretary, the natural history qualification is being introduced in England this September. It's designed to foster a deeper understanding and connection with the natural world through observation and field work. I'm pleased that the new curriculum in Wales emphasises connecting with nature through integrating outdoor learning, fostering empathy for the environment. But is this maintained through education in teenage years? Is there a possibility of introducing the natural history qualification in Wales? But I heard what you said earlier about how Qualifications Wales would have to introduce this. Thank you.

Thank you, Carolyn. I know this is something you're really passionate about, because you've raised outdoor learning with me before, and it is absolutely essential for our children and young people. That's why the curriculum is clear that it should be embedded throughout a learner's journey in a wide range of authentic experiences right the way through school. It's included in the humanities, health and well-being, science and technology areas of learning and experience in the Curriculum for Wales, which all schools have to consider.

In terms of the qualification in England, I understand that's being developed by the Cambridge university education board. Qualifications Wales obviously consulted very widely on the new suite of qualifications, and they tell me that nobody raised that new qualification in England. But I'm very happy to keep an eye on how things are going. We do look over the border to see what the opportunities are. But just to assure you that being exposed to nature and outdoor learning is an absolutely critical part of the Curriculum for Wales.

Thank you for your statement. I want to ask specifically about one issue, namely Welsh history. I was very pleased that the Government had, at last, made the teaching of the history of our country a statutory matter within the Curriculum for Wales. But, a highly respected historian, Dr Huw Griffiths, believes that the new history GCSE is a missed opportunity, because there is a lack of focus on Welsh history. Having looked at the details, there is just one unit related to Welsh history. So, what is your assessment of the history GCSE that has been approved by Qualifications Wales, which will be taught from 2026 and examined in 2028? Will you take any steps to ensure that the rich and diverse history of our own nation is given its proper place across all units of the new history GCSE?

Thank you, Siân. Welsh history does have a unique place in the curriculum, and it's vital to support a genuine understanding of belonging, identity and learners' place in Wales and the world. In the new history GCSE, there is a dedicated unit of Welsh history that represents 30 per cent of the qualification, where learners have the opportunity to explore a Welsh history topic in depth, from either the medieval, early modern or modern period. Adnodd are currently overseeing the development of engaging, accessible and bilingual teaching resources for Welsh history, backed by professional learning. You’ll be aware that, as part of that work, they’re looking at the timeline of Welsh history, which was something that was taken forward as a result of the co-operation agreement. But you’ll also be aware that the concept of cynefin is a vital part of the Curriculum for Wales, and that all learners need to experience and learn about that cynefin, of where they’ve come from. It highlights the importance of local and national stories, and the role that they play in our identity.

Cynefin is very important at this very difficult time. I just want to congratulate you, Cabinet Secretary, because I think that your leadership has been brilliant, as well as that of all of the teachers and senior leadership teams who’ve successfully incorporated the new curriculum into what is a really exciting development, because it enables teachers to use their pedagogical skills to adapt the lesson plans to the children who are in front of them, not some mythical average pupil who’s in some institute somewhere. It’s just such an important development.

I want to say that food literacy is vital to help young people look after their physical and mental health; it’s also a very powerful tool for teaching maths, as well as science. We need to know where food comes from, what the environmental cost is, and how we can develop tasty meals without having to spend a fortune. So, Monmouthshire children researched alternatives to Thai chicken curry, and they now have chickpea curry on the menu in Monmouthshire. The Cookalong Clwb in Monmouthshire and Simon Wright’s developments in Carmarthenshire—

You need to ask your question now, please.

—are incredibly important. Springwood and Bryn Celyn schools in Llanedeyrn and Pentwyn have developed their gardens to be resources for learning and helping children grow food, and to encourage them to taste new foods that they wouldn't otherwise know. But not all—

You need to ask the question, please, Jenny.

Fantastic teachers don't necessarily know about either gardening or cookery. So, some of the excellent initiatives going on in some schools, how could we roll that out to all schools, given that this is a universal need?

Thank you very much, Jenny, for those kind words. You’re right when you say that the strength of the curriculum is that it's learner focused, isn't it, and that's what really brings forward the potential of the curriculum. I know how passionate you are about food and nutrition, so thank you for raising that. As you're aware, this is a key part of the health and well-being area of learning, and that involves learning about health-promoting behaviours, such as nutrition, a balanced diet and planning and preparing basic nutritious meals. It's great to hear those examples that you've given of really positive practice, but I recognise that that's not happening everywhere. One of the things we have done is work with Public Health Wales on a food and nutrition toolkit. That was published earlier this year. That's part of a suite of resources designed to support schools and settings with the health and well-being curriculum, and will hopefully help with those concerns that you've raised.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 4 is next, a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on reforming the dental contract, next Steps. I call on the Cabinet Secretary to make the statement—Jeremy Miles.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. It's six months since I set out our proposals to Members to radically reform the current dental contract. These proposals, which were carefully negotiated with the dental profession and the NHS, are at the heart of our ambition to improve oral health and ensure that more people have easier and regular access to affordable dental care.

The current general dental services contract does not support the level of access, fairness or sustainability that the public and professionals demand. It does not prioritise need or prevention. Instead, it pays dentists to stay on a demoralising treadmill of activity, recalling people every six months regardless of whether they have any signs of disease or oral health problems. This crowds out appointments for people with real needs, making getting an NHS appointment a challenge for too many people, while also driving dentists away from the NHS. I hear and recognise the very real frustration from the public and the profession. Change is not just necessary, it is urgent.

We have been working on dental contract reform since 2018. After years of investment in the groundwork, including offering a variation of the contract after the pandemic, now is the time to introduce significant change—the most significant change in two decades. The new contract, which will come into force next April, will transform how dental services are delivered across Wales. It will end the automatic six-month recall. Instead, people will be seen according to their oral health needs and risks. There will be a greater focus on prevention. The new contract will create a new payment system that is fairer for dentists. I want to be clear that this is not about saving money. Instead, it is about investing in NHS dentistry.

There will be a new, fairer system of patient charges for those who do pay for NHS treatment. We will retain the existing system of exemptions, which means around half of people will receive totally free NHS dental care.

Dirprwy Lywydd, we asked the public and the profession what they thought about these proposals, in a consultation between March and June. We received more than 6,400 responses, which shows just how important NHS dentistry is. I am publishing the findings from the consultation today. The responses supported the need for reform, particularly amongst dental professionals. But there was concern about some elements of the proposals, especially in relation to continuity of care.

We've heard how much people value the trust and reassurance that comes with seeing the same dental professional over time, and we've made changes to reflect this. This means that people who have good oral health will not be referred back to the dental access portal. Instead, we'll introduce a new capitation payment to allow practices to continue seeing these patients, albeit at longer recall periods. This provides people with the security that they will maintain their relationship with their dentist, and provides dentists with the freedom to monitor their oral health based on risk and need.

The new contract will also make dental charges simpler and fairer. For those who pay—that's around half of patients—there will be a clear, consistent contribution towards the cost of dental care, with a maximum capped contribution, no matter how much treatment they need. The patient charges have been reduced from the 55 per cent in the consultation proposals to 50 per cent of the care package value. We are also postponing the introduction of an online payment system to April 2027, based on the feedback from the consultation.

We'll increase the payments made by the NHS to dentists. The general fee rate will be set at £150 an hour, compared to the proposed £135 an hour. This reflects our aim of ensuring the dental team is paid fairly for the work that they do, while making NHS dentistry a more attractive and sustainable career. We will not be progressing proposals to cap parental leave payments or phase out seniority payments at this stage.

It's vitally important that dental professionals are engaged in local planning and service integration, which is why the new contract supports a renewed focus on involving dentists in accelerated cluster development. At the current time, dentistry feels like it is provided in a silo, but, by funding professional collaboration across practices and professions, we can involve dental teams in wider NHS reform. We will be increasing the annual contract value top-slice to £1,200 to support participation in accelerated cluster development. This aligns dentistry more closely with other primary care contractors.

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, I want NHS dentistry to provide equal access for all patients, including those who may need additional support. We will develop a high-needs pathway and will work with the NHS and dental profession over the coming months to define who qualifies and how and where care will be delivered. We'll also develop a commissioning model that's both workable and effective.

These reforms are about people, not just contracts and systems. The new dental contract is about making sure every person in Wales, regardless of their background or their post code, can get the care they need, when they need it. I'm grateful to everyone who contributed to the consultation, because they have helped to shape the new contract and, therefore, the future of NHS dentistry. This marks a significant step forward in improving our oral health and in ensuring that everyone who wants NHS dentistry can access it.

Ten Members wish to ask questions on this statement. We'll see how time goes. James Evans. 

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. We've had over 6,500 responses to the consultation. That's a huge number for such a technical service like dentistry, and it shows how deeply people care about that service. Patients want continuity and dentists want prevention properly valued, and everyone wants a contract that works in practice, not just on paper. Yet what is being proposed stretches recall intervals to 24 months and leaves big gaps in clarity about funding, access and accountability.

Continuity of care is my first concern. The Government originally wanted to take green patients off practice lists and push them into a centralised system. That plan has been dropped, and rightly so, because that's what people were telling us right the way across Wales. But what is the guarantee in the contract that people will still be able to see the same dentist? What safeguards will there be for older patients, especially in rural communities, and those without transport and with digital barriers who could otherwise slip through the cracks in this policy?

Then there is the issue of valuing complexity. The BDA has been clear that restorative work, dentures and endodontics remain undervalued. Under the new model, if the Government is confident that this will work, will you not now publish the full schedule of fees so we can see exactly how dentists will be paid fairly for simple, moderate and complex care? Because if complexity is not rewarded, more dentists will walk away from NHS contracts and patients will pay the price with their oral health.

Prevention is supposed to be at the heart of this reform, but how will the Cabinet Secretary measure it? Will we simply count the number of appointments, or will Ministers commit to tracking outcomes like the rates of decay, the number of extractions and emergency attendances, and, crucially, early detection for oral cancers? Will the Senedd receive regular reports from the Cabinet Secretary so that we can judge if prevention is actually working, or is this just another element where you say, 'We're going to do prevention', but it never actually appears at the end?

Access is another worry. We were told there would be a new digital portal to manage entry into NHS dentistry. But what about those thousands of people across Wales who are digitally excluded? What about the older people who don't use online services or communities where connectivity is poor? The older people's commissioner has already raised concerns here. So, will the Cabinet Secretary guarantee that a non-digital route into care is there—one that is properly funded, promoted and monitored? 

Finally, the workforce. Dentists are already overstretched and burnt out. We all know that, because they all approach us regularly. Surveys show that 42 per cent of dentists were unwilling to work under the old dental contract, and 72 per cent say they will not sign up to the new proposed reforms as they stand. I think that should set alarm bells ringing for everybody in this Chamber. Yes, we are told that the rate per patient is rising from £135 to £150, but that is actually on the price of an NHS chair per hour. That doesn't take into consideration everything else: the running of the practices, the receptionists. So, I'd like to know how that figure has come up, and whether the Cabinet Secretary could give some assurances about whether they think that cost will cover the whole price.

Deputy Presiding Officer, we are moving to a new place. I think there are some good things that have been announced by the Cabinet Secretary today. You have moved, but I think there is an awful lot more work that does need to be done, and if we can have some answers to the questions that I posed, I'd be grateful. Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. 

I'm not sure what the Member thinks is the more work that needs to be done. All the questions that he's asked have been answered in the contract. Let me help him with the following details.

In relation to continuity of care, I made it clear in my statement that that will be a feature of the new contract and that we are providing a capitation payment to practices in order to deliver just that.

In relation to the complexity of different treatments and how they are valued, the Member will recall not just the proposals published today, but the ones that were published several months ago. They set out the rates for different treatments. He will have seen from that that complexity is indeed reflected in the different rates for the different work. One of the things that dentists told us very consistently was that they wanted to move away from what they described as the 'treadmill' of a flat rate for activity, which didn't, in their view and also in mine, reflect the complexity and the additional professional work that certain procedures and certain interventions required. So, that has been remedied in the new contract and that is at the heart of making the contract more attractive to practitioners. 

In relation to prevention, we already publish and track the information that the Member has requested. Indeed, I am pleased to see his perhaps newfound commitment to the transparency agenda that I have been advocating for in relation to all aspects of the NHS, including NHS waiting times. But he makes an important point about the importance of prevention. Dentists have told us for a long time that despite the changes we have brought in progressively over recent years, it has been hard to give proper value in the current contract to the advice and guidance that dentists can provide to patients in order to improve their oral health and to support that important preventative agenda. The new contract does provide additional support for dentists to do that, which we would all wish to see.

The digital portal that he refers to has now been up and running for several months. What that does is provide a single point of access for those who choose to use it, so that they don't have to spend their time calling a multiplicity of practices seeking an NHS appointment. They can register on the portal, and then they can be told where the next NHS appointment is close to them. That's already up and running. It's been up and running for several months. It's not the only way of getting access to an NHS appointment, but for those people who are able to be online, it does provide that extra flexibility.

I don't recognise the numbers the Member referred to at the end of his questions in relation to practitioners saying they will not work under the new contract. Indeed, how could they have said that, because the details have only been published today. So, that simply cannot be the case, I'm afraid. Indeed, 80 per cent of practices are already practising under the reformed contract that already exists, which suggests to me that, actually, most dentists regard the progressive way in which we have improved dentistry as being better than what has gone before. But it is still absolutely the case that we have recognised throughout that more significant reforms need to be brought in to really get to grips with some of the challenges that we discuss routinely in this Chamber. I'm confident that the proposals that we will be bringing in from April next year in the form of a new contract will do just that.

The principle of ensuring access to health services without someone being reliant on income, background or location is a core principle for us here. Health and dentistry, which is an important part of health provision, isn't a luxury for anyone, it should be a right. Working in partnership is also a core principle. Only if change to our health services is developed in real collaboration with those providing care on the front line can that be successful. And finally, I believe in accountability. The Government has a duty to be transparent on the decisions that it makes. So, in setting that context, I want to turn to the proposed dental changes.

There are things to be welcomed. The fact that people with good oral health will not be sent back to the DAP is a good thing. The higher fee is also to be welcomed, although the costs of dentists have increased significantly as a result of increases in national insurance contributions that the Labour Government in England has introduced. So, I welcome the shift that's taken place on the initial starting point. And, of course, there's recognition that the current framework is failing.

Now, exactly a year ago today, Jo Stevens said that the Labour Westminster Government, and I quote, would take inspiration from dentistry in Wales. But today we hear the Cabinet Secretary here saying that these dental contracts are not fit for purpose. I welcome this recognition, but the Government was warned of this at least six years ago. We have therefore lost six years, and the result of that is that dozens of dentists have handed their NHS contracts back, that patients have suffered and that there's more pressure on our community dentists and A&E departments as a result of this. 

Reforming the dental contract is necessary to make services sustainable. Few would argue with the need for change. The units of dental activity system has long been criticised as unfit for purpose, but the way in which this Government has handled reform leaves much to be desired. Instead of a negotiated settlement, I'm concerned that the terms drawn up here have been one-sided, with the British Dental Association effectively shut out of meaningful discussions for the best part of a year. That isn't partnership. It undermines trust and damages morale further. So, why were the representatives of the profession excluded from negotiations for so long? 

One standout proposal is to extend recall intervals to 24 months. The Cabinet Secretary has said, and I quote:

'It will end the automatic six-month recall. Instead, people will be seen according to their oral health needs and their risks.'

But can the Government say with confidence that these guidelines will ensure that problems are caught early enough? What risk assessment has been carried out of the implications for patients' oral health? Also, the Cabinet Secretary justifies this change by claiming that too many people who need to see a dentist can't get an appointment because others with good oral health take up those appointments. I dispute that. People can't get an appointment to see an NHS dentist because there are too few appointments available because so many dentists have handed their NHS contracts back. 

The statement tells us that this

'reflects our aim of ensuring the dental team is paid fairly for the work they do while making NHS dentistry a more attractive and sustainable career.'

This is good. So, I'd ask, if the Cabinet Secretary is so sure that this provides a secure future for NHS dentistry, will he commit to collecting and publishing reliable and regular data on dental work undertaken in NHS settings?

The Cabinet Secretary talks about how this new arrangement will prioritise the preventative agenda, but the little detail that I've seen provides some tokenistic measures to expand fluoride varnish application but not much else. So much of the devil will be in the detail, and I look forward to seeing that detail in full. Maybe the Cabinet Secretary might want to elaborate on a few details this afternoon. 

Finally, the workforce is under immense strain. A survey by the BDA found that 42 per cent of Welsh dentists described their job as 'very' or 'extremely' stressful, and nearly half reported low morale. Given widespread demoralisation amongst the sector, does the Cabinet Secretary recognise the case for extending occupational health support to dental practitioners, in line with conditions already provided to other NHS staff? Diolch. 

Thank you for that range of questions and for the welcome that I think I heard the Member give to the proposed reforms. I think that many of the criticisms that he outlined in his questions were ones that relate to the contract that we're replacing, rather than the new contract, so I take that as being a measure of support for the changes that we are bringing in, and I'm grateful to him for that. He mentioned the points that the Secretary of State for Wales had made a year ago in relation to England taking some inspiration from the reforms that we've introduced in Wales. I don't want to put words in her mouth, but I imagine it was the 468,000 new patients having completed treatment and the further 178,000 new patients receiving urgent care that may have inspired her to make that comment. That's within the range of reforms that we've undertaken so far, and I think, with the contract that we're bringing in from April of next year, we'll see a considerable increase in those numbers. One of the virtues of devolution is that we can all learn from one another.

He made a point about the role of the BDA. I want to say 'thank you' to the BDA for having worked with us for so long on this contract. I think it was over 13 months of negotiation that we undertook with them. Look, I was very clear, responding directly to what we were hearing from the profession, including from the BDA, that it was imperative that we don't delay beyond next year the introduction of a new contract. We all understand that we want to bring forward the changes of the sorts that we're talking about in this contract, and so there comes a point where, even if not everything is agreed in the contract, you need to be able to consult on that, to get the views of the public in the way that we have, to respond to those, and also the views of the wider profession. I make no apology for that, but I do want to thank the BDA for the work they have done with us. A negotiated contract will never lead to a situation where every party gets exactly what they want. It's a process of negotiation after all. But I'm absolutely confident, in particular with the changes that I'm outlining today, based on the consultation, that we have a contract that practitioners can see makes NHS work attractive to them.

He made an important point that I think is one that is often misrepresented, though not by him, in relation to the intervals at which people are called back. This is not a decision that the Government has chosen randomly, based on our view about what the economics of the contract are. This is a clinical judgment. The evidence that we draw upon and the advice that we draw upon are National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidelines, which tell us that children, obviously, must be called back at six-monthly intervals, because their teeth are developing, but for adults, that should reflect the need of the patient, rather than simply an automatic recall. Some adults will be recalled back more frequently than three months, and some will be called back less frequently, and that will depend on their particular needs.

It is important, alongside that—and he made an important point in his question—to make sure, therefore, that the preventative element in the work that dentists do is clearly and appropriately dealt with in the contract, and I'm confident that the changes that we will be introducing do that. In fact, I was talking to dentists this morning who were saying to me that, actually, they're happy that prevention will be given greater prominence in the new arrangements, in the way that I'm sure the Member would welcome.

He made an important set of points in relation to the collection and publishing of data. We already do that, of course, and I can commit that we will continue to do that after the new arrangements are brought in.

I've heard from residents who have been able to get an NHS appointment via the dental portal. However, recently I've had comments from people who have struggled. The feedback is that they need to have not seen a dentist for four years before they get an appointment. There is also concern regarding the varying costs and advice of private dentists and the takeover by large businesses who drive away competition. The same has been happening with vets and GPs.

A resident has said that one dentist told him that he needed four fillings at a cost of £850, so he went somewhere else and, on inspection, he was told that his teeth did not need intervention. Would you amend the online waiting time for people to be seen via the portal? And is there a way of having consistent pricing and level of service for those who have to pay privately, as they cannot get an NHS dentist?

Firstly, I'm pleased to hear that people are getting access to NHS dental care through the portal. That's a much fairer and more equitable way for people to find a dentist. It is right to say that when we launched the portal some months ago, originally, there was a four-year requirement. That's because, under the current variation agreement—we've been varying the existing contract every year, as the Member will know—patients who'd received care or treatment from a practice within the last four years were considered what's known as 'historical patients', and so are entitled to continue to receive care from that practice. That was the rationale for having a four-year cut-off, because anybody within that period would continue with the practice that they already are with. However, we did recognise very quickly, actually, that there are some scenarios where that might not be possible—if someone has moved home, for example. We have now removed the four-year qualification period as of the beginning of June this year, so I hope her constituent will be pleased to hear that.

In relation to the consistent pricing, as in any private enterprise, the charge for private dental care is entirely a market force-driven question, isn't it, as we would obviously understand. So, it is not possible simply for the NHS to match what would otherwise be a range of prices. But the key thing is that the costs of NHS dentistry for those who have to make a contribution are, of course, considerably lower than patients would have to pay if they were having to go to the private sector.

Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. I welcome the commitment to reforming dentistry. It is long overdue, as we know, and dentistry has faced serious challenges in recent years and action is needed. I welcome the greater focus on prevention and the move away from activity-based care, and that it maintains continuity of care for those low-risk patients. I also welcome the clarification on the dental access portal nationally, because that is a concern as well. So, thank you for clarifying that.

I just want to raise two issues, if I may. One is around access to dentistry in rural areas. In Powys we’ve seen the closure of the dental practice in Knighton on 30 September, and one in Crickhowell closed at the end of July. So, these are dental deserts, really, in terms of being able to find a dentist, never mind then being able to have treatment. So, I wonder if you could just outline what your plans are to make sure we recruit and maintain dentists in rural areas. I would be really interested to hear your views on the continual involvement of the BDA, which was raised by my colleague Mabon. I feel that that is really important. So, could you please clarify how you will continue to work with them going forward? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

We are in continuing discussions with the BDA, so that will absolutely continue. In relation to the important point that the Member made about access to dental services in particularly rural areas, the contract reform that we’re discussing today is a significant contribution to expanding NHS dentistry from April next year onwards, but it isn’t the entirety of what we are doing, as the Member will understand. She will, I think, be aware that, in relation to recruitment of dentists into rural areas of Wales, we already have an enhanced recruitment offer, which does provide an enhanced support package for trainees who complete dental foundation training in specific rural dental practices, and that is now fully subscribed. So, we see good levels of take-up, but we always seek to find new ways of making sure that, even where population density is sometimes a challenge from a practice point of view, we are providing that additional support.

I will say that, where NHS practices are giving back their contracts—obviously none of us want to see that—that funding is not lost to the health board. That funding remains available to commission new NHS work. Clearly there is some time lag when that happens, understandably, because it’s a procurement process, but that funding is generally then redeployed. There is a very good example in mid Wales, I believe in Powys, where some of the funding that has been returned to the health board, because of the sort of scenario that the Member has referred to, has then been redeployed quite imaginatively. For example, a dental practitioner has been specifically engaged to work with children on the waiting list to speed up access for children's dental care. So, I think even in those circumstances, which none of us want to see, there are means of redeploying that funding in a way that ensures people have access to the care they need.

Cabinet Secretary, over the summer, my inbox was inundated with residents who were concerned about the original proposal, so I thank you for listening and removing those. But at the time you said, and I quote,

‘It will make NHS dentistry more attractive to dentists and that is good for patients’, 

but, clearly, that wasn't the case. Cabinet Secretary, one has to wonder how this original direction was got so wrong, and it begs some questions as to what else is being got so blindingly wrong across the wider health system. However, what I was really concerned about was listening to Dr Bassett this morning on Radio Wales, where she was saying that dentists in Wales will still have to continue to deliver NHS services at a loss. So, I wonder, Cabinet Secretary: do you truly believe that this new contract is a sustainable way forward to retain access to NHS provision for people across Wales, because, if dentists can't cover their basic costs, how can we retain local practices?

Thank you to the Member for the welcome he's given to the changes that I'm announcing today. I spent the morning at a dental practice talking to dentists there about their view about the new contract before I'd announced some of the changes today, and explained to them what the changes were. And the message I was getting from them was that they regarded it as a very significant step forward, and they felt that it would extend quite significantly the reach of NHS dentistry, making many, many more appointments available. Because it does two things. Firstly, it makes delivery of the contract more attractive to dentists. It reflects in the fee structure the complexity of the work that's being undertaken. They made a point about the hourly fee rate being at the low end of what they were hoping it would be. We heard that as well in the consultation. No doubt he will have heard that from some of the practitioners in his area as well. So, we are announcing today an increase in that fee level, and there'll be a premium above that for seeing children, so we can make sure that there's no disincentive for practitioners to see children as well. So, I'm confident that this will extend NHS dentistry, will make it more attractive for dentists to provide that, and, based on the discussions I was having this morning, it certainly didn't seem to be the case that those practitioners felt that the sorts of scenarios the Member was describing were realistic.

There's no doubt that NHS dentistry is in crisis, and the situation is at its worst throughout Wales in the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board and in Arfon, where it's difficult for even children to access an NHS dentist. That is something that we have discussed here in the past, but the situation is entirely unacceptable.

So, I would like to ask how this new contract will move us to a position where everyone will have a right to access an NHS dentist, including residents in Arfon. And how will the new contract attract more dentists back to provide treatment on the NHS? And following on from some previous questions, what is the plan for attracting dentists back to provide treatment on the NHS? Are you considering that? Now that we have these changes to the contract, do we need another important step forward to attract those dentists back to providing this important service that our people need on the NHS?

In terms of treatments for children in the Betsi Cadwaladr area, it's worth bearing in mind that, since we reformed the current contract, 38,000 young people have had a full course of treatment on the NHS, and about 4,000 have had access to emergency treatment. Those figures are among the highest in Wales, and that's to be welcomed. But, of course, what we want to see is a contract that puts the service on a more stable footing for the future.

The Member mentioned the challenges in Arfon specifically. The health board did succeed in recontracting in five locations about a year ago, and one of those locations was in Caernarfon. So, we are seeing that, even though contracts have been handed back, it is possible through the procurement system to see that other practices have a desire to take on further NHS work.

What's at the core of these reforms is ensuring that we have a new model that provides a fairer deal in terms of dentists, and therefore leads to more NHS appointments. That's the idea underpinning what we're announcing today, so it's important that we do ensure that there is a fairer deal for dentists as part of that. So, the process of increasing the hourly rate makes the contract more attractive, but also—and I think this is the main thing—ensuring that the fees that are paid by the NHS to dentists do reflect more closely the complexity of the work that's done. Dentists call the current system—even though we have been reforming it; about 80 per cent are on the reformed contract already—people do call it a 'treadmill', which doesn't sound very attractive to me or to the profession. So, differentiating between the complexity in the fees is at the core of how we're making the contract more attractive and how we make more NHS appointments available.

It is welcome to have this new dental contract after 20 years since the last one. What is not welcome, however, is the number of dentists that are, sadly, withdrawing from providing NHS care and from that NHS contract and only providing private dental care, as some colleagues have already mentioned today. I've received representations from several constituents, over the last few months, who have been unable to access an NHS dentist in Wrexham, with those practices that are still providing NHS care sadly closing their waiting lists at the current time. Dentistry is a part of the NHS that I believe has a real preventative role. So, whilst I appreciate some individuals with good oral health don't require six-monthly appointments, what assessment have you undertaken to ensure the new contract will provide the necessary but, more importantly, the appropriate support for our dental professionals to allow our constituents to receive dental care when necessary?

Well, I would recognise the point the Member makes—none of us want to see NHS contracts being handed back. And I think, even with the reforms we've brought in, it still hasn't been sufficiently attractive for all practices. I've outlined the figures in terms of the new numbers of patients, so I think we've seen good progress. But the reforms that I'm discussing today are considerably broader, and I think will be a step change.

The Member has mentioned to me a number of practices in her constituency—and near to where she lives I'm thinking of Dant y Coed, but other practices as well—who've reduced their NHS work, and none of us want to see that. As I mentioned in my answer to Siân Gwenllian, that funding is not lost to the health board, and they're doing good work in retendering, but that isn't always in the same location. So, I recognise very much the challenge that the Member refers to. That's why getting a contract that is fairer for dentists, as well as fairer for patients, giving that extra access, is so important.

She makes an important point about the intervals at which people are called back. Having a focus in the contract on prevention so that dentists are supported to provide that preventative advice and guidance is therefore really important. As I said earlier, this isn't a set of judgments that the Government is making independently; this is based on clinical guidance from the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence about the appropriate intervals at which people should be recalled for check-ups. The crucial thing here is that we're providing a capitation payment to practices, which puts the clinical judgments in the hands of the professionals. So, they will form a view about when a particular patient needs to be called back, based on the profile of their dental health, and they will have the flexibility within the contract to be able to do that. So, we rely on them to make their clinical judgments and to use the funding in the contract to do that.

Thank you for your statement today, health Secretary. Reform is certainly needed. We have, of course, seen NHS dentists return their contracts. That's happened in Newtown and Welshpool in my own constituency. At times, there have been no full-time dentists at all operating in those two major towns. When I then intervene, or the health board intervenes, often a patient is advised that they will have to travel many miles away from their home, sometimes two-and-a-half-hour round trips, in order to access an NHS dentist. The real question that I would like to know today, and there's been much discussion on this, is: when do you think, in your mind, that everyone across Wales, wherever they live, will be able to access an NHS dentist, either within their town or nearby locality? Can you put a time frame on that, because that's the real question that people will want to know?

Well, what lies in the Government's hands is to make it as likely as possible that dentists want to deliver NHS dentistry, and also make sure that we have the dental workforce to deliver that and incentivise dentists to work in those areas that otherwise might not be able to sustain practices or recruitment quite so easily. Those are the levers in the hands of the Government to deliver the objective that the Member rightly sets as one we should be working towards.

This contract will make NHS dentistry more attractive. I'm confident that, coupled with the work that we're doing to incentivise people to work in rural areas in particular, and, as I mentioned in my answer a little earlier, that scheme is fully subscribed, which is good—. Those are the sorts of interventions that we're putting in place. I want to make sure that no-one has to have private NHS dentistry unless they absolutely choose to do that of their own free will. I want to make sure that NHS dentistry is available to people right across Wales, and in a way where, even if they have to make a contribution, that is absolutely affordable.

I'm confident that this contract takes us a very significant way forward from where we are today, and I'm confident that when we start to see the impact from April onwards, when the data is published, we'll be able to see more and more access to dentistry on the NHS in all parts of Wales, including the most rural.

Finally, Laura Anne Jones.

Diolch. Following the consultation in the summer, which was largely negative, Cabinet Secretary, this Government is now taking forward the biggest change to NHS dentistry in Wales that it ever has done, in isolation from the experts, due to the breakdown in negotiations with the BDA. This would show it's contrary from what you've just said, that everyone's hunky-dory about what's going on. In fact, there are some real concerns amongst practitioners about what you're proposing.

It seems the teething problems highlighted at the very beginning and during the summer still haven't been addressed. For example, the continuity of care only works if there's enough funding left after seeing all the new patients. Dentistry in Wales needs to be preventative, it needs to be affordable, and it needs to be available. However, these changes that you've made don't address this, nor does it incentivise those dentists to stay with the NHS.

Cabinet Secretary, your plans to make routine check-ups as far apart as two years will undoubtedly result in small dental issues escalating to big, costly ones, and of course things like oral cancer and tooth decay not being picked up.

You need to ask your question now, please.

But, Cabinet Secretary, my question to you is that it's obviously going to create a social divide, where people who can afford to keep their teeth healthy regularly, on a regular basis, will have good teeth, and people who can't afford it will have increased bad oral health and poor general health as a result. And this is coming from a party that prides itself, of course—

That's not a question. Can you please ask your question?

—on the—[Inaudible.]—of working people. Will you act upon the negative consultation that was in the summer and recognise that prevention is absolutely key to ensuring success and good oral health across our nation? And can you explain in more detail about how you're going to keep dentists within the NHS? Diolch.

With respect, Dirprwy Lywydd, the Member has a brass neck. If she thinks I'm going to take advice, lessons or questions about NHS dentistry from a party that wants to abolish the NHS, she is absolutely mistaken. And to ask me a question based upon social division, when that is the entire rationale of her party, beggars belief. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 5 is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice: period proud Wales. I call on the Cabinet Secretary to make the statement—Jane Hutt.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. In February 2023, we published the 'Period Proud Wales Action Plan', a five-year plan, the intention of which is to eradicate period poverty and achieve period dignity by 2027.

Eradicating period poverty means ensuring that having a period does not lead to missed education, absences from employment or withdrawal from sport and social activities due to lack of access to period products. As we mark the halfway point of this plan, I wanted to take the opportunity to report back on some of the progress that has been made.

Improving the availability and accessibility of period products is a cornerstone of the plan. The period dignity grant is allocated to every local authority in Wales and is managed by period dignity leads to ensure that it is used dynamically to meet local needs.

During this financial year, we've invested a record £3.45 million to local authorities to provide free period products in schools and across a range of community venues including, but not limited to, foodbanks, libraries, leisure centres, family centres, community hubs, youth services and further education colleges. Universities support students to provide free products through the well-being grant. Fantastic work has been undertaken across Wales, and I wish to celebrate their successes today. For example, many local authorities have pick and mix stands in a variety of locations, where people can choose from a range of period products, and this is becoming more commonplace across Wales.

There are over 1,000 community venues across Wales providing access to free period products and, in many instances, friendly support too. During the last period dignity round-table meeting, I heard about a fantastic project run by Family Action in Fairwater Primary School in Cardiff. They provide free environmentally friendly period products and educational resources on menstrual health to families attending their food club. This project has fostered open and supportive conversations. It has received positive feedback from parents and carers, who now feel confident talking to their children about periods in a way that their parents had not.

In schools, the grant's being used to provide training and resources to teachers and, in some areas, for parents and carers too, with sessions specifically targeting dads becoming more popular. Officials in education are working on new resources to support learning on menstrual well-being that will be released in the coming weeks. These resources will support teachers in both primary and secondary settings.

In June, I was delighted to visit Ysgol Bro Pedr in Ceredigion and meet students from the Ceredigion Youth Council. They spoke about the benefits of receiving lessons about periods and what they would like to see included in the future. I was impressed by their confidence, enthusiasm and by the work they'd put into producing the period positive guidance for their schools.

In September 2024, we produced a case study template to capture best practice examples and a consistent approach of sharing more meaningful information between leads. Over the last year, 14 case studies have been written and shared, and these have highlighted successful projects and have led to more innovative projects taking place across Wales. A fantastic example of this is Flintshire, where period dignity leads worked in partnership with the community sport development team to create what they have called 'period first aids'. These started with period products being included in generic first-aid kits, but have been enhanced into stand-alone kits that contain a variety of products to accommodate all needs. This project has since been replicated across Wales, including in Torfaen, where the netball league has been supported to provide period first-aid kits for every team. The impact of this small change cannot be understated. It ensures that periods are not a barrier to participation in sport.

Work with Sport Wales is continuing. The round-table meetings continue to be very successful and well attended by sporting governing bodies in Wales. It's an excellent opportunity to share best practice and improve support for their members. Work is under way to gather feedback from young people on the barriers they face to participating in sports because of menstruation.

Encouragingly, between April 2024 and March 2025, 94 per cent of products purchased were already environmentally friendly, and we are on track to achieve the same for this financial year, ensuring that people have access to plastic-free disposable products and a range of reusable options. This surpasses our environmental targets, which aimed to reach 90 per cent by 2027, and contributes to Welsh Government's wider goals under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 for a more prosperous Wales that recognises the limits of the global environment. This is due to a growing trend across Wales of young people choosing reusable products over single-use options. For many students, period pants are giving them the reassurance needed to attend school. This is reflected in Ynys Mon, where they've seen record numbers of girls choosing period pants over other products.

I'm delighted to highlight that work is under way with the private sector, with officials due to attend the retail forum's equality, diversity and inclusion working group this month, as well as positive collaborations with third sector organisations, such as Carers Trust.

So, this is just a snapshot of the work that's being undertaken in Wales and, in January 2025, we published the 'Period Proud Wales Action Plan' progress update. This online tracker, which has recently been updated, shows how we are progressing on each action.

Our vision for achieving period dignity continues with the remaining years of the plan. I am so proud that we are delivering on these concrete actions to end period poverty.

Today, I want to take this opportunity to thank the period dignity leads across Wales for their continued work, and thank the teachers, youth workers, community workers and businesses that, by offering products sensitively to those in need and normalising conversations about periods, are helping us to achieve a period proud Wales.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for this afternoon's statement. Ending period poverty is absolutely essential, and it's certainly something we're all aligned with, Cabinet Secretary. Periods are a natural part of life, and no girl or woman should face barriers or be at a disadvantage because of them. Sadly, we know this is not always the case at the moment.

We hear of women being forced to miss work or young girls missing school days because of their periods, and the sad reality is that many cannot indeed afford these period products. Those with severe period pain report missing one to two days of work or school every month, and that, quite frankly, is a shocking number. The Welsh Government has committed to giving free sanitary products to girls in Welsh schools. It's certainly a welcome move, Cabinet Secretary, but sadly, based on conversations I've had with young women across my region of south-east Wales, and also in my capacity as shadow Cabinet Secretary for education, not all girls do receive access to these products.

One young girl I spoke with recently explained that the free period products are kept with the school receptionist. The student—and I'm sure others too—are naturally too embarrassed to approach the receptionist for the sanitary products, meaning they essentially go without. In other cases, it's simply a case of some students not knowing where they're located within the school itself. So, it is clear that there is a piece of work for the Government to carry out there when it comes to signposting and accessing free period products.

Cabinet Secretary, I'd like to know how the Welsh Government monitors this situation to ensure these period products are actually reaching those who are indeed in most need of them in our schools. If it is deemed that there are cracks in the process, will the Government commit to carrying out a review to ensure that this initiative is effective, as fast and quickly as possible?

Sticking with the school theme, research by the charity Freedom4Girls has revealed some students have been refused permission to leave class and go to the toilet when they're on their periods. Not only that, but according to data from PHS Group, one in six teachers in England, Wales and Scotland have prevented a student on their period from using the loo, with one in four of those girls saying it has caused serious issues, including bleeding through their uniforms. This leaves girls humiliated, embarrassed and unable to concentrate during that moment in time. So, how is the Welsh Government working to curb this and ensure Welsh schoolgirls aren't facing these sorts of barriers going forward?

Cabinet Secretary, are you confident that the Welsh Government will hit its target of eradicating period poverty by 2027? Because, sadly, from where I'm standing, as much as I want to see this target reached, I'm unfortunately not convinced that it's going to be achievable. Can you also please outline some of the proactive steps we can expect to see that will play a pivotal role in helping to hit this 2027 target? Cabinet Secretary, the Welsh Government allocated £90,000 in 2024 to a project in Zimbabwe aimed at reaching gender equality, including period dignity. Can you please explain why the Welsh Government prioritised this other nation over our own? Surely this money would have been better pumped into Wales instead.

Obviously, I have taken an education-focused approach today, but tackling period poverty stretches across lots of different aspects of society. I'd also like to know if tackling period poverty, an issue discussed at Government level, is indeed with your Cabinet as well. And what steps are your other colleagues actively taking in their respective areas to help eradicate period poverty? Because, in my view, to truly end period poverty, it needs a collective approach.

And finally, Cabinet Secretary, I'd be interested to know your thoughts on the fact that free tampons and pads are placed in the Senedd's toilets, including the men's toilets as well. I understand the rationale of them being put in the women's toilets, but putting them in the gents' loos is utterly baffling, and to me certainly not a good use of resources. Do you not think efforts towards tackling period poverty would be better directed by putting these products in schools and colleges for young women to use, instead of stocking them in the men's toilets right here in the Senedd? Thank you so much.

Thank you for your response. It was largely very supportive, I think, Natasha, in terms of what we're achieving with the 'Period Proud Wales Action Plan'. This is really important, the first point that you made, about ensuring that young women and girls in school don't miss education, and I think that also applies to work, the workplace and employment, and those who can't engage in sport and social activities due to lack of access to period products. Everyone should have access to period products as and when they're required, to use in a private space that's safe and dignified. Periods impact in so many ways, as you said, and this impact goes beyond the time at which they're bleeding. In fact, the entire menstrual cycle has profound impacts on people’s mental and physical health and the ways in which they can live their lives.

So, it is really important that we address this issue. Any sense of vision for achieving period dignity clearly involves ending any sense of stigma or shame associated with periods, increasing understanding of periods, confidence to discuss them whether you have them or not, and considering the impact of periods across a person's life course, and also lifestyle. So, it is normalising having a period and removing any sense of shame or stigma around periods. That's the key priority of the plan.

I think the important engagement with young people as to how we can break down those barriers and make sure that period products are accessible are crucial. When we developed the plan, we talked to young people through Children in Wales. They specifically engaged with children and young people and, of course, I've mentioned the meeting that I had with young people in Ceredigion—in fact, in the Llywydd's constituency. The young people who I spoke to at Ysgol Bro Pedr in Ceredigion had such an influence, they actually developed period positive guidance for not just their school, but every school in Ceredigion. That is such a good example, and influenced through the youth council as well.

I think it's very important that we look at this issue in relation to access to period products and the fact that we've invested £18.8 million in improving access to free period products for children and young people and those on low incomes in Wales, and this year, £3.4 million for this financial year. If you look at our online tracker in terms of progress, we do give this update on access to products in schools, further education colleges, community organisations.

The period dignity round-table includes representatives from all our local authorities—in your constituency as well, Natasha—who are so positive about the work that they're doing in the schools. They're also widely sharing information through webinars, newsletters and networks, but we also give an update on the evaluation of the period dignity grant, as we need to learn from what we've done already and what impact it is having.

I think the period peer programme is important. You gave an example of the young person who didn't feel she knew how to access a free period product, which is very regrettable. I have not heard of that, but obviously this is something where every bit of feedback counts. But the Plan UK period peer programme, I think, is a way in which young people can actually be period peers to one another, guiding those who perhaps are reluctant or still unsure about the issues and needs.

I think it's very important also that we look at this in terms of the curriculum, the fact that this is very much the new curriculum we've just been discussing this afternoon. The mandatory health and well-being area of learning supports learners in understanding and discussing issues—and that's all learners—that impact on their health, and developmentally appropriate learning about menstrual well-being is a mandatory part of relationships and sexuality education code.

Can I pay tribute to a former Welsh Conservative Member, Suzy Davies? She was the one who got menstrual well-being, which we supported as a Government and across this Chamber, into our curriculum. So, it is actually permeating, and you've made this point about across the whole of Government, local government, all our partners, third sector and business.

I'm very disappointed that you've raised the issue about our support. Through the United Nations' sustainable development goals, we have a strong commitment to gender equality. These are UN sustainable development goals. This is about global citizenship, which we are actually teaching our children in our schools about, as well as period dignity. Several Welsh organisations have received grant funding from our Wales and Africa programme specifically to deliver women's empowerment projects in sub-Saharan Africa, working in close collaboration with our African partners. I just want to say and put it on the record this afternoon that these projects have delivered life-changing impacts, providing better livelihoods for women, promoting gender integration to fight the effects of climate change, challenging female genital mutilation practices, gender-based violence and period dignity barriers, and helping girls to complete their education. I look forward to seeing more applications for impactful women's empowerment projects of this kind in the future.

Thank you for the statement. Plaid Cymru fully supports efforts to tackle menstrual poverty and schemes like Period Proud are so important in this respect. We need to ensure consistency in terms of provision and access to support through the scheme across our communities, and people’s needs and the consideration of choices in terms of products are also important.

I'd like to thank once again all the tireless and brilliant campaigners across Wales who have ensured that menstrual poverty is recognised and that action is being taken on it, such as Elyn Stephens, a former Plaid Cymru councillor in Rhondda Cynon Taf. I'd also like to quote the former Plaid Senedd Member for the Rhondda, Leanne Wood, who rose in the Chamber many times to draw attention to the fact that poverty is a feminist issue. 

Chwarae Teg, Oxfam Cymru and WEN Wales have all drawn attention to the specific impact of poverty on women's lives over the years. The latest research by Trussell, for example, finds that women in Wales are more at risk of food insecurity than men, with one in six women experiencing food insecurity last year, compared with one in 10 men, and women are also more likely to use a charitable food provider than men. And of course, an even higher rate of women who have intersectional characteristics experience poverty—women who are unpaid carers, who are care experienced, who are part of the LGBTQ+ community or from a black, Asian or ethnic minority background, or who are disabled. So, as the cost-of-living crisis goes on, so does the need and demand for programmes like this to prevent menstrual poverty.

One aspect that I'd like to raise today is the nature of the guidance that's being given to local authorities under the scheme. Funding is allocated, as you mentioned, to local authorities to implement the programme, but does the Government provide them with clear enough guidance, do you think, on how to spend that funding? How does the Government ensure that there is no postcode lottery, where the type and quality of provision that someone receives depends on where they live, and that good practice that you gave examples of in your statement is spread across Wales in a consistent way?

Another important point, of course, is monitoring and feedback, and you've mentioned that in your statement. Does the Welsh Government carry out regular assessments to ensure not only meeting the action points within the programme, but ensuring that the products and the support that are provided actually do meet the needs of those who have periods? How do you gather feedback from those who use Period Proud products and services, and how often are these data reviewed to improve provision?

For example, some people, and you touched on this, prefer to use different kinds of products. So, how are these choices considered, so that no-one is left without access to the products that they need, those that best meet their needs, and so that we don't see cupboards or drawers full of items that are unusable by the women of Wales? Thank you very much.

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. Thank you as well for welcoming the impact of our period dignity action plan, 'Period Proud Wales', across Wales. I also would like to recall the influence that Leanne Wood had in this Chamber in those early days, when we first discussed period poverty and period dignity—it was the first time that these debates had taken place. It has been very much cross-party engagement, as well as all of our partners in local government, who've played an important part and an important role. 

You do raise a key issue about consistency: is this universal, are we making sure—? We've already had the instance of, perhaps, young people not being aware of their—. These are entitlements, as far as I'm concerned—these are rights. It is different, though, isn't it, when we do see period products appearing virtually everywhere in public places, businesses and in our own facilities. I have mentioned the evaluation, which, actually, is important in terms of making sure that we are reviewing a report that was published back in October 2023, and looking at those recommendations again to see whether we're responding fully to them.

But also, just in terms of the actions that we now account for, I think this tracker on progress is important for the public to see. For example, in February of last year, we published human resources guidance and procedures on periods and menopause for our own staff in the Welsh Government. This is where, also, in terms of businesses, Business Wales is promoting the new menopause standard and 'The Little Book of Menstruation, Menstrual Health and Menopause', an informative introduction to the British Standards Institution's menopause standard. I know that the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being would recognise that this is all very much linked to the women's health plan, so we've got that moving forward as well.

I've mentioned the links to the curriculum. In November 2024, we awarded a contract to produce a range of health and well-being curriculum-related resources, and that’s important for our teachers as well as our learners. It’s supporting learning on menstrual well-being. In terms of young people engaging, some of you will remember the inspiring work of Molly, who worked with us in terms of helping to develop also, for example, the Bloody Brilliant web resource, if you recall. Cross-governmental work on education and health is taking place.

Action 8 of the plan is to ensure that products can be accessed and that guidance is created with equality and inclusion as a central pillar—so, that’s regular monitoring meetings, improvements to the grant monitoring form that’s being used, capturing data and supporting discussions with every local authority. We’ve got these good case studies coming up, and I’ve already mentioned in my statement how those good case studies are travelling now, so one authority is following another. In June of this year, we issued community guidance for community settings that offer free period products and dignity. 

We’re also looking at issues in terms of options. We’re looking at increasing the provision of plastic-free products, products with reduced plastic content, reduced plastic packaging and reusable products. It’s interesting that between April last year and March this year, 94 per cent of products purchased were environmentally friendly. In fact, we are increasing the minimum requirement for the period dignity grant to be spent on environmentally friendly period products to 80 per cent. A lot of young people are very interested in having access to eco-friendly period products. Again, that has to be about being sensitive about saying that these are our options.

I do believe that we are making progress to make sure that there is consistency and that we are allocating our funding in a way that it can become a universal part of Welsh society. We are a Period Proud Wales, and I hope that’s reflected in this statement today.  

Thank you very much. I hope we all embrace Period Proud Wales, and it's excellent to see the examples of good practice in your statement.

I was particularly drawn by the food club in Fairwater Primary School introducing adults to the period first aid kids, because we know that, in the past, one third of children who started their period in primary school hadn't been informed in advance that this was a natural part of the progress to becoming a woman. That can be very, very frightening for any child—to suddenly start bleeding without realising what's happening. 

Natasha Asghar raised the fact that some girls may be missing school one or two days a month because of period pain. We have to realise that, if it's that bad, this may be a sign of early endometriosis, and therefore it's important that schools are supporting young women to get medical advice if they have very heavy periods at that stage.

I just wanted to ask you about how we ensure that everybody understands what environmentally friendly products are all about. Because clearly, we want young women to be using the period pants once they've settled down into that monthly cycle. They need to know simple things, like the fact that you need to soak your pants in cold water, not hot water, before you put them in the washing machine, otherwise you can't get the stain out.

I just wondered how much information is available online or through schools to ensure that everybody, at the right time, knows how to use the menstrual cups, which are not for children aged nine or 10. But later on, people will become comfortable with their own bodies, and that is absolutely the right thing to be using.

Thank you very much, Jenny Rathbone. Thank you for mentioning again—I think it really does need it—our praise of the Fairwater Primary School family action project, linked to the food club. Also, I made the comment in my statement about the increasing engagement and interest from fathers as well. It's a parental responsibility, and this is about tackling the stigma and raising awareness.

I did also want to acknowledge the fact that this, as I say, is about menstrual well-being. Menstrual Hygiene Day is on 28 May. Perhaps you should acknowledge it next year as something that we really want to publicise, to ensure that menstrual hygiene management is part of our local and national policies. Their view in terms of global interest is 'Together for a period-friendly world', with an emphasis on 'together' on that point.

I think it's also important to recognise that there are opportunities for busting the myths as well. Again, keeping with education, Keep Wales Tidy Eco-Schools are keen to engage with this. They're promoting discussion with young people to break down myths around periods and period products. All of us who've been to schools will know that in those eco clubs, the pupils are so keen. They're actually free of charge—busting the myths. It's on the education hub, and local programmes are being developed as well to look at this.

You've mentioned the issues, and access to toilets and period products is key. We haven't mentioned school governing bodies. Looking at this in relation to school toilet policy is key as well. We do set out our approach to ensuring period dignity in our schools in terms of how toilets are open and accessible to all learners. Every local authority, back to consistency, has that guidance for schools on how period products should be made accessible.

Finally, in terms of the issues around ensuring that they're environmentally friendly, I've already given the statistics about the rise in interest and use of environmentally friendly products, and also reusable. You mentioned the period pants; we can learn how Ynys Môn has achieved the highest rate and then spread that best practice across Wales. I have mentioned already the inspiring work of young people, and I wanted to give full recognition to the 'Love Your Period' campaign. I've mentioned already the great work of Molly Fenton from Cardiff. 'Love Your Period' was her campaign—I remember her coming to the round-tables—and she launched the campaign at the age of 17, back in 2018, driven by her own lack of guidance growing up. She wanted to ensure her peers at school could access free period products and realised that she wanted to do more to reduce stigma. Again, we see Molly quite often at our meetings of the period dignity round-table, and she has made a big impact, as so many other campaigners have in this area of work.

Good afternoon again, Cabinet Secretary. We know, as we’ve heard, that poverty continues to be an issue for women. This is again another area where women and girls really struggle. Period products are not a luxury, they’re absolutely essential. We must remove the stigma in this area and break down the barriers of talking about menstruation.

So, I do welcome your statement and the action plan. I was particularly pleased to hear the progress updates that Powys have made in this area, particularly highlighting their work with young carers as well. It shows the difference that funding can make. But significant challenges, as we've heard, do remain, especially in our schools. ActionAid raised the issue that young adults aged 18 to 24 are disproportionately affected, with nearly half missing social or sports activities during their periods.

Scotland have introduced a law. In 2021 they introduced the Period Products (Free Provision) (Scotland) Act. I know we are not able to do that here in Wales because we are running out of road, but I would really welcome your views on whether there is an opportunity in the future and whether you feel it is worth while to introduce such an Act, given that a lot of this provision is voluntary. It's about people in the schools and people who are motivated to do it. So, would you just give us your pearls of wisdom in terms of the future and whether we can look at an Act, if we can, going forward? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds, and thank you again for repeating that all-important point that period products are not a luxury, they are essential. That's why we should be making them as universal and free and accessible as possible. Again, can I compliment Powys on their work as a local authority and, indeed, with the third sector and schools and organisations supporting young carers, but also young adults? It's important that further education colleges are also making period products available.

We don’t have any current plans to introduce legislation like the Period Products (Free Provision) (Scotland) Act. They have Acts in Scotland and, actually, in Northern Ireland. Today it's been important to scrutinise me on how we're delivering our period dignity grant and the ‘A Period Proud Wales Action Plan', and for me to be able to share the great progress that is being made across Wales in so many local authorities that I have mentioned today. We do have great ambition to go further. We have to ensure that free period products are available in a wider range of settings. We have to ensure that we eliminate stigma. We haven’t actually mentioned sport. I mentioned sport in my statement, but there is some great work that's being done in terms of ensuring that we are tackling this in terms of access to sport policy. I think the point about where we go next will be for a future Senedd in terms of legislation.

One other point we haven’t made is that period products are available free of charge for hospital in-patients, but the crucial point is that we learn from each other across our four nations. We work together; our officials are in regular contact with the other nations. They’re all very interested in what we're doing as well, but I am proud of the work we're undertaking in Wales to eliminate period poverty and achieve, most importantly, moving towards period dignity. I do believe we're well on the way to becoming a period-proud nation.

Finally, Heledd Fychan. 

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm hugely supportive of 'Period Proud Wales'. I've also long championed having this enshrined in legislation. At a time when women's rights are under threat globally, I do think that I would like to see the Welsh Government consider how we can enshrine this as a right. You mentioned it's a right, but it is something that could be taken away by a Government that wasn't as committed to this. So, I would like to understand what assessment you have made about what's happened in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and why you've decided not to enshrine it as a right. Is this something that you would consider as a recommendation to the next Welsh Government?

I do really worry, because period poverty is still something that's very much a problem in our communities. I get contacted by people not knowing where to access them still. Members of my team have had to take period products to people's homes. I know that it's still a problem in many schools. Often, things can go brilliantly, then that champion leaves school and then all that progress disappears overnight, or there's not a supportive teacher there to support that group of young, enthused women who are taking this forward. So, I do think we can, yes, celebrate the progress, definitely, but it is still extremely precarious. If we are to normalise and destigmatise this, surely enshrining this as a right in legislation is the natural next step.

Thank you very much, Heledd. I was expecting questions about legislation this afternoon—whether there was a time when this Senedd and a future Welsh Government may consider that legislation might be essential to underpin our 'Period Proud Wales Action Plan'. I've always approached change and the possibility of policy change in terms of getting the policy right, making sure you've got the funding, and then whether legislation needed, and you can do it which way round. You've got to have the funding and the policy right to even consider legislation, but I'm sure that this will be considered.

I think we will want to see from Northern Ireland and Scotland what the impact of legislation has been. As I said, we meet regularly and share progress together, so I am sure that this is something that we need to look to. The first port of call for us as a Welsh Government now is to make sure that we have that consistency, we have that support from all our 22 local authorities, all the institutions, business—cross-sectoral commitment to becoming a period-proud Wales. Alongside this, we can look at the impact of legislation in other nations and the future as well.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. 

The next item is item 6, the legislative consent motion on the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) (Amendment) Bill. The Deputy First Minister will be moving the motion—Huw Irranca-Davies. 

Thank you, Llywydd. I welcome this opportunity to explain the background to this legislative consent motion on the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) (Amendment) Bill, and to outline the reasons why it should be supported by the Senedd.   

This long awaited and very important Bill addresses the serious issue of dog attacks on livestock. These often devastating attacks are a blight on our rural communities, causing physical, emotional and financial devastation. The Bill proposes essential amendments to the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953, modernising a law that is now over 70 years old and which is no longer fit for purpose.

Earlier this year NFU Mutual reported that the estimated cost of dog attacks on livestock in Wales fell by 64 per cent in 2024. This is encouraging and it reflects the success of awareness campaigns and collaborative efforts right across the sector, including Blue Cross's celebrated responsible dog ownership course. In September 2024, in partnership with police forces across Wales, they rolled out a livestock safety module as an alternative to court proceedings and potential prosecution for dog owners who've been involved in minor dog-related offences.

However, we cannot afford to be complacent and we must build on this momentum with a robust legislative framework. Recent data suggests that North Wales Police received over 80 incident reports in 2024 alone. Now, such attacks lead to emotional and physical suffering, livestock deaths, pregnancy loss and long-term trauma for farmers. So, this Bill is a vital step in helping to better protect livestock, to support farmers, and to enable more effective enforcement.

The Bill does so by extending the powers available to the police to obtain evidence of an offence under section 1 of the 1953 Act. The Bill extends the offence in section 1 of the 1953 Act to include roads and paths, and it expands the scope of livestock currently afforded protection to include camelids. The Bill also increases the maximum penalty for livestock worrying from a £1,000 fine to an unlimited fine, reflecting the seriousness of these offences and acting as a serious deterrent. It empowers police to seize and detain dogs suspected of attacking livestock and to collect evidence more effectively, including DNA samples. These are practical, proportionate steps that will make a real difference on the ground.

Animal health and welfare are devolved matters, and I maintain that the provisions of this Bill fall within the legislative competence of Senedd and therefore they do require our consent. Though the UK Government holds a different view in regarding the matter as reserved, our officials have worked very closely during every iteration of the Bill, from its inclusion in the fallen Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill, to its present form as a private Member's Bill. So, my priority is seeing this important work finally realised, and our collaboration will deliver substantive benefits for Wales, including a consistent application of the law.

So, I would like to take this opportunity, Llywydd, to thank the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their scrutiny and consideration of the legislative consent memorandum. I've noted both committees' report conclusions and recommendations, and I welcome the ETRA committee's conclusion that there is no reason to object to the Senedd giving consent to the Bill. Therefore, Llywydd, I move the motion.

The Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee now—Mike Hedges.

Diolch, Llywydd. The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee laid its report on the legislative consent memorandum last Friday. In that report, the committee said it agreed with the Welsh Government's assessment of the provisions within the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) (Amendment) Bill, as set out in the memorandum, which requires the consent of the Senedd. However, the committee's expressed surprise at the justification used by the Cabinet Secretary to support the Bill. The UK Government position is that provisions within the Bill engage reserved matters and that the Senedd's consent is not required. However, the committee report noted in particular the absence of a reference to reserved matters in the paragraphs of the memorandum that explained the Welsh Government's position and the reasons for making these provisions for Wales in the Bill. As a result, the committee is unclear whether the Welsh Government agrees with the UK Government position and considers that reserved matters are engaged to an extent that prevents the Senedd from making this legislation. Furthermore, the committee did not consider that the statement,

'Dogs and their owners in England and Wales can move freely cross-borders',

included in the memorandum to justify the approach is a relevant matter when considering whether to legislate on a Wales and England basis. Can I just say that there are very few things that are not easy to move from England and Wales or back again?

Additionally, the committee noted that the memorandum says that the Bill ensures a comparative working regime across England and Wales and ensures absolute clarity for enforcement agencies. The committee does not consider that a 'comparative working regime' requires a joint legislative approach or that such an approach is necessary to ensure clarity for enforcement agencies. It was for these reasons the committee made two recommendations: first, the Cabinet Secretary states whether the Welsh Government agrees with the UK Government position and reserved matters are engaged to an extent that prevents the Senedd from making this legislation; and, secondly, the Cabinet Secretary should state the reserved matters that the Welsh Government considers prevents the Senedd from making this legislation. I would be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary would address these recommendations in his closing remarks.

Plaid Cymru will be supporting this LCM because, of course, Plaid Cymru has been calling for action in this area for 10 years and more, and it's disgraceful that it's taken until now for us to get to this point. Back in 2019, myself and Ben Lake wrote to Michael Gove, who I believe was the Secretary in DEFRA at the time, either asking, 'Introduce legislation on this in Westminster', or, 'Give us the powers here in Wales to do it for ourselves.' And a pledge was made then, 'Oh, no, no, Westminster fully intends to deal with this soon.' And here we are six or seven years on. And in the meantime, of course, Scotland, who have the powers to legislate in this area, have long since passed legislation since 2021 in order to strengthen police powers and to increase penalties in this area. So, it's a practical example here of how the devolution settlement as it currently stands has held Wales back in this area, and how powers in Scotland have allowed them to act—powers that we should have here in Wales, but, of course, Westminster is holding us back. 

So, I very much hope, this time, that we will see legislation to tackle this plague that has cast a shadow over the industry for so long, and hopefully that will tackle the issues that arise in terms of the welfare of animals that are attacked. There are economic problems arising from the loss of stock for farmers, never mind the burden that it puts on the mental health of many of these families who have suffered livestock attacks. I hope now that politicians in London won't continue to drag their feet on this issue.

The Cabinet Secretary to respond to those comments.

Thank you very much. Firstly—

First, can I respond to the LJC committee Chair and thank you for your consideration of this Bill? As I stated in the opening remarks, but I'll go a little bit further, UK Government is of the view that the Bill doesn't require an LCM of Senedd Cymru on the basis that the Bill provisions relate to the matter of dangerous dogs and dogs dangerously out of control, which is, in their view, a reserved matter in accordance with paragraph 44, section B6 of Schedule 7A to the Government of Wales Act 2006.

However, it is our clear view that consent is required for the provisions of the Bill. As we've argued within our response, they make provision with regard to devolved matters insofar as they apply to Wales, notably animal welfare and agriculture, and the purpose of the provisions being to protect livestock from harm. So, we have a difference of opinion, but what I can say is we've engaged intensely from the introduction of this in a collaborative spirit to make sure that this is right both for England and for Wales.

Llyr, I note your comments on how long this has taken to come forward. We've consistently made clear our support of the need for this legislation. We were disappointed, actually, when it fell at various hurdles, but we are still consistent now in our support of bringing this forward. That's why we've engaged so intensely. I've actually raised this in matters in bilateral meetings since I've been in post with Ministers, saying, 'If the opportunity comes, can we get this back on the statute book? Give it your support as UK Government. We'll certainly be supporting it here as well.' And it's good to see now that it is progressing and there doesn't seem to be an impediment. There's broad support, I hope, here within the Senedd, but also at UK Government level as well.

So, with that, Llywydd, and having moved the motion previously, I remain very firmly of the view that we should provide the consent for this Bill and ask Members to support the LCM.

The proposal is to agree to motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed.

Item 7 is next, an LCM on the Bus Services (No. 2) Bill. The Cabinet Secretary for transport will be moving the motion—Ken Skates.

Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion and recommend the Senedd consent to the relevant provisions in the Bus Services (No. 2) Bill as set out in the legislative consent memoranda laid in relation to it. I think it was the Chair of the climate change committee who joked that you wait for one bus Bill and then two come along at once. It has been pretty challenging, but it's also provided us with opportunities to ensure the models being introduced in Wales and in England complement one another and support those who really matter—the travelling public.

I welcome the opportunity to explain the background of the LCM for the Bill and to outline the reasons why I believe it warrants the support of the Senedd. Through this Bill, the UK Government is seeking to simplify and extend existing powers to enable local authorities in England to establish their own bus operating models and provide powers to underpin those models. Their aim, similar to ours, is to help improve bus services and grow patronage. The UK Bill also makes provision around safeguarding on school services and the training of bus drivers and others in tackling crime and anti-social behaviour, and in relation to disability awareness and assistance.

Most of the Bill does not relate to services in Wales. However, there are provisions that fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, as outlined in the memoranda. Extensive discussions have been held with the UK Government focused on the implications of some of these provisions for the delivery of bus services in Wales, including under the bus services Bill, and I'm pleased to say that these discussions concluded with the UK Government tabling a number of amendments to minimise the impact on the delivery of local bus services under our Wales Bill and a recognition of the benefits of supporting provision in relation to cross-border services. The amendments to clauses that relate to municipal bus companies, safeguarding on school services, and driver training on crime and anti-social behaviour ensure that there is no crossover on devolved matters. We'll take the necessary steps and guidance to ensure appropriate provision is made in Wales.

On clauses 35 and 36, I will, of course, respond formally to the committee's report on the latest supplementary legislative consent memoranda, which I received yesterday. However, I'd like to clarify my reasons for supporting consent for clauses 35 and 36. Whilst we're of the view that we could deliver almost the same effect through Welsh legislation, we do not believe its application in Wales need necessarily have a significant impact on or hinder the delivery of bus services under our proposed new model. I agree with the overall intent behind these clauses, which will benefit users and potential users of local bus services in Wales. I believe placing these duties on operators will help to improve accessibility on buses by building awareness around disability issues.

Llywydd, to conclude, I'd like to thank the committees for considering these memoranda and, in recognition of the positive impacts of this Bill, in particular on cross-border services, I recommend the Senedd supports this Bill and gives its consent. Diolch.

The Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitutional Committee, Mike Hedges.

Diolch, Llywydd. The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee has reported on all four of the Welsh Government's legislative consent memoranda for the Bus Services (No. 2) Bill. Members of the Senedd will note from the committee's report that the committee has questioned the Cabinet Secretary on the Welsh Government's assessment of which clauses in the Bill trigger the requirements of Standing Order 29 in that they make provisions that have regard to a devolved matter. On this point, the committee remains unconvinced by the Welsh Government's argument as regards clause 26, and, while acknowledging the Cabinet Secretary's views on this, the committee continues to hold the view that the Senedd's consent should be sought for this clause.

The committee has acknowledged that, after a period of negotiation between the Governments, some clauses that originally applied in relation to services in Wales have now been amended so that they are now largely disapplied. However, at the point that the Welsh Government laid memorandum No. 4, clauses 35 and 36 of the Bill continued to apply in relation to Wales, despite the Welsh Government requesting that they be disapplied, and the Cabinet Secretary has provided no clear recommendation as to whether the Senedd should consent to the Bill regardless. I would be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could address these clauses in his closing remarks.

Next, I will turn to the events leading up to the legislative consent debate this afternoon. The UK Government's Bill was introduced in the UK Parliament in December 2024, but the Cabinet Secretary did not lay the original memorandum until 11 March 2025. That memorandum related to only a single clause in the Bill, despite there being other provisions in the Bill that impacted on different devolved matters. This led us, Llywydd, writing to the Cabinet Secretary, highlighting that the memorandum should include all relevant provisions, even if some may be disapplied in relation to Wales during the Bill's passage through the UK Parliament. In his letter, Llywydd, on 25 March, the Cabinet Secretary committed to laying a supplementary legislative consent memorandum listing the clauses in the Bill, as introduced in the UK Parliament, that make provision in relation to Wales and which were not included in the original memorandum. As noted in the committee's second report, it's unclear why memorandum No. 2 was then not laid until 23 May. The committee concluded in its second report that this approach to the legislative consent process is not showing the level of respect to the Senedd that we would like to see. In the committee's final report, laid yesterday afternoon, the committee welcomed the Cabinet Secretary's comments that the approach was not intended to be disrespectful and that the Government will seek to ensure that the delay is not repeated.

Finally, I wish to note the committee's interest in the overlap between the UK Government's Bill and the Welsh Government's bus services Bill, which, last week, the Senedd agreed could move on to the amending stages. The committee highlighted in its first report that it is unclear when the Welsh and UK Governments began discussing crossover and divergence in the two legislative proposals. The committee's first and second reports highlighted that the potential impact of the Bill on the Welsh Government's bus services Bill had not been fully explained by the Welsh Government. It is unfortunate that, in the last of our reports laid yesterday afternoon, the committee concludes that it is disappointed that the potential impact of the UK Government's Bill on the Bus Services (Wales) Bill has not been made clear to the Senedd in advance of being asked to consider a legislative consent motion for the Bill.

Plaid Cymru is disappointed with how this LCM process has been handled, and, in this respect, we agree with the conclusions of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee's report. We've had conflicting interpretations on the extent of the interaction of this Bill with devolved competencies, which has led to regrettable delays in the laying of LCMs. Although the Cabinet Secretary has acknowledged the delays, the situation highlights the need to review the current consent arrangements and to impress upon the UK Government that the Senedd has to be shown the respect it deserves as a separate legislature, rather than being treated as an afterthought. I would hope that lessons are being learned from this episode so that we have far more timely and accurate information as to the interface of UK legislation on areas of devolved competence. As we have heard from the Chair of the LJC committee, there are also further questions as to how this piece of UK legislation will interact with our own bus Bill as it progresses and develops through the Senedd. On that basis, Plaid Cymru will be abstaining on this. Diolch.

The Cabinet Secretary to reply—Ken Skates.

Diolch, Llywydd. In closing this debate, I'd like to thank Members for their contributions this afternoon. Regarding issues relating to clauses 35 and 36, I think I addressed them in my opening statement and will do so again in writing in response to the committee.

In terms of LCM processes and timings, yes, the analysis of this Bill was done alongside our own Bill during the later stages of its development, which meant it took time, obviously, and my officials first received sight of the Bill when it was laid on the last day before Christmas recess, on 17 December 2024. I do appreciate that the Senedd will be disappointed with the delays in tabling the first two LCMs, and, whilst there has been regular and useful engagement with the UK Government, the nature and the timing of the UK Bill in relation to the development and scrutiny of our own Bill has been very challenging, and I appreciate that the Senedd's ability to scrutinise the UK Bill has been impacted. But the Welsh Government supports the overall aims of the Bill and those provisions that apply to Wales, and I would therefore ask Members to join me in giving it consent.

The proposal, therefore, is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore vote on the motion.

And that brings us to voting time now, and, unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will proceed directly to the vote—there is just one vote this afternoon—on the item that we've just discussed, item 7, the legislative consent motion on the bus services Bill. So, I call for a vote—

Llywydd, a Member is travelling, and I don't think that's allowed when we're voting.

Okay, all the votes and videos I see before me will be allowed for this afternoon, and I'll review the guidance in light of a Member obviously travelling in a car as he is voting.

I will therefore open the vote, and this vote is on the motion tabled in the name of Ken Skates. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 41, 11 abstentions, none against. And therefore, the motion is agreed.

And that concludes voting for today and brings our business to a close.