National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon and a warm welcome to this Plenary session. Before we formally begin, may I ask you to take account of a few issues? This is a Plenary meeting held by video-conference in accordance with the Standing Orders of the National Assembly for Wales, and it constitutes proceedings of the Assembly for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and these are noted on your agenda. I wish to remind Members that Standing Orders relating to order in Plenary meetings apply to this meeting and also the new time limits on the length of questions that have been applied to this meeting, as communicated to Members yesterday.

Before we move to our agenda, I wish to deal with two points of order. The first on unparliamentary language. A point of order was raised at the end of Wednesday's Plenary meeting regarding off-camera comments made by the Minister for Health and Social Services. I wish to call on the Minister to contribute at this point—Vaughan Gething.

Thank you, Llywydd. Obviously, the comments in question after my statement had concluded were not intended for broadcast or entry onto the record. I did speak with the Member for Cardiff Central on the day in question to apologise, and I'm grateful to her for accepting my apology. I am, of course, happy to withdraw the remarks and provide the apology to the Assembly and the Presiding Office that is plainly required, and I hope it helps all of us to move on and deal with matters in a more appropriate manner in the future, including, of course, myself.

Thank you, Minister.

The next point of order was a point of order regarding the scheduling of oral questions and Standing Order 34.18. The Deputy Presiding Officer responded at the time, last week, and I want to update Members following the Business Committee meeting held on Monday. Business managers agreed that I continue with the practice of disapplying the requirements of Standing Order 12.56. No oral questions will be scheduled, but as Members are aware, topical questions will be reintroduced from next week onwards.

The Business Committee continues to review the organisation of business on a weekly basis. I am grateful for Members' understanding as we continue to enable this Assembly to carry out its functions during these unprecedented times.

With that, I move on to our first item of business this afternoon, which is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the First Minister to make that statement.

Diolch, Llywydd. The only change to today's agenda is to increase the length of each oral statement to 60 minutes. Draft business for the next three sitting weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

I thank the First Minister.

The next item, therefore, is the statement by the First Minister on coronavirus, and I call on the First Minister to make that statement.

Llywydd, once again, I will update Members on the Government's response to the coronavirus crisis. We continue to work urgently to resolve the most pressing issues, including personal protective equipment for public service workers. We are working to strengthen the public health infrastructure so that we are ready for the next phase, when we can begin to relax the current restrictions.

We have published our framework so that we can share with the public how we will take decisions on the next steps to be taken. In the meantime, it's crucial that everyone continues to respect the rules, to keep themselves safe, to protect the NHS and to safeguard the most vulnerable.

Llywydd, once again this afternoon, I will update Members on the key developments in our response to the coronavirus emergency over the past week. As in previous weeks, I will focus on those matters not covered by the statements that will follow from other Ministers. 

Llywydd, yesterday, an important supply of PPE arrived at Cardiff Airport from Cambodia. It was secured through the efforts of the Welsh Government. We will share that supply with other parts of the United Kingdom if needed, as part of the mutual aid system.

Now, Llywydd, I believe the response to the coronavirus crisis demonstrates the strengths of a devolved United Kingdom. We in Wales are members of a wider collective, contributing to and drawing on shared resources, but we also act on our own initiative where our devolved powers allow us to advance Welsh interests. That's why, in addition to securing supplies elsewhere, we have focused on strengthening our domestic supply chain to help meet immediate demand and to build resilience for the future. Transcend Packaging in Ystrad Mynach, for example, has responded to the call for action and changed its processes to make a million face shields a week for the NHS in Wales. It has the capacity to double that number if needed.

And for the first time, we're close to self-sufficiency in scrubs in Wales. By the end of next week, we will be making 5,000 a week, bringing back jobs from overseas and anchoring them in our Welsh economy. We have worked with a UK company supplying the NHS with scrubs, and primarily with three Welsh businesses and social enterprises. Two of these are in north Wales and the third is in a factory we have created from scratch in Ebbw Vale, in partnership with a social enterprise, creating jobs for 50 machinists who otherwise had been long-term unemployed. 

But, Llywydd, I need to explain to Members that not every offer of help turns out to be genuine. Almost one in five of offers subsequently investigated by the experts at our own surgical materials testing laboratory in Bridgend turns out to rely on incorrect certification or to be straightforwardly fraudulent. Each one of those offers takes time and effort to investigate and is an inevitable distraction from responding to the far greater number of generous and well-intentioned possibilities. 

Sadly, this virus has been exploited by some to prey on the vulnerable. The Minister for Finance and Trefnydd published advice last week on avoiding the risks of online scams and being vigilant to the serious risks this poses to vulnerable members of our community.

Llywydd, as we attend to the urgency of the crisis, we must still find time to recognise and protect the culture and diversity of Wales. During the past week, we have continued to provide guidance and support to help deal with the implications of the virus, including £800,000 for the National Eisteddfod and Llangollen International Musical Eisteddfod. Over the last week, I have written to everyone in Wales observing Ramadan, setting out how the festival can be celebrated safely and in ways that respect the long traditions of Islam. And in an important written statement published today to mark the anniversary of the declaration of a climate emergency by this Senedd, the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs sets out the steps we continue to take to recover loss of biodiversity and to respond to climate change in Wales.

Yesterday, as Members will know, we passed another sombre milestone as the number of deaths recorded by Public Health Wales passed 800. Each one of those deaths is an individual and a person with a grieving family and friends left behind. In recognition of the difficulties of that experience, we announced additional funding this week to support bereavement services in Wales to help them respond to the additional calls for their support.

As far as the economy is concerned, businesses across Wales will start receiving grant payments from the Welsh Government's economic resilience fund by the end of this week. Since it opened a week ago, the fund has received almost 9,000 requests for support. The scheme was paused on Monday to enable us to consider what changes can be made from that experience before we move to the next tranche.

On Friday last week, we concluded the first three-week review of the coronavirus regulations and made some modest but significant changes—some to tighten the rules and others to relax them in response to concerns raised. In the first category, we are clear that leaving home for one reason should not mean adding other activities as well. We confirmed also that physical distancing requirements apply to the workplace, cafes and canteens. In the second category, we have widened the definition of vulnerable people to 'providing supplies is a reasonable excuse to leave home', and we have relaxed the rules to allow people with autism and learning disabilities, for example, to leave home for exercise more than once a day. We have made it clear that businesses that can operate on a click-and-collect basis are able to do so, providing physical distancing is applied.

Llywydd, we take the review process very seriously and will continue to do so in consultation with partners, including the police and local authorities. We are using this review period to plan for the next phase, as I set out in the framework published on Friday. This was the start of a conversation with people in Wales about our journey out of lockdown, and the approach set out in the framework has three key elements: we explain how we will decide when it is safe to start easing the current restrictions; we have set out how we will evaluate options for the initial relaxation measures when the time is right; we want to identify those measures that have the lowest risk and the greatest positive impact on people's lives and the economy in Wales. And we have set out a public health response that will accompany the easing of restrictions. This will include surveillance, contact tracing and testing swiftly to identify and react to any emerging coronavirus hotspots, and this work is being led by the Chief Medical Officer for Wales. At the same time, we are working to plan for the future, harnessing the best ideas from Wales and expert advice from beyond Wales. A post-pandemic Wales will be a very different Wales and we need to respond with new ideas rooted in our values and the Counsel General will be leading that work.

Llywydd, we will move carefully and cautiously as we consider relaxing the current restrictions. We will continue to work closely with other Governments of the United Kingdom to try to achieve a common approach. We will work with people throughout Wales as we face the difficult decisions ahead and I will continue to report on all these matters to the Senedd each week. Diolch yn fawr.

Leader of the opposition, Paul Davies.

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, can I thank you for your statement this afternoon? Now, at the heart of Government, there needs to be a commitment to openness and transparency, and in that vein I'd like to ask you specifically about the under-reporting of deaths at Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, which took over a month to be made public, and the subsequent under-reporting of deaths at Hywel Dda University Health Board.

First Minister, it's a source of national embarrassment that the Welsh Government cannot even publish accurate information over the number of COVID-19 deaths, and, whilst I accept that you've published a review of the situation, there are still questions that need answering. The people of Wales must have confidence that any information published by the Welsh Government and by Public Health Wales is accurate and up to date. Therefore, given that Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board is directly under the control of the Welsh Government, why was a different system to the rest of the Welsh NHS used at all, and why did it take so long before the Welsh Government and Public Health Wales actually realised that there was something wrong?

Your review states that you've had assurances from most health boards that they consider their processes have been and will continue to be robust, but I'm sure you'll appreciate the processes at all health boards must be robust, and so what is the Welsh Government doing to ensure this activity is taking place? And, given that two health boards now have not produced accurate information correctly, what mechanism will the Welsh Government now implement to ensure that local quality assurance actually takes place going forward?

Llywydd, I thank Paul Davies for those points, and I want to agree with him: it is very important indeed that Ministers and people in Wales can be confident that information that is published by our system is accurate and reliable. That is why, as soon as I was alerted to the fact that there had been an under-reporting of deaths from Betsi Cadwaladr, I instituted the review that was published by the health Minister yesterday.

I do want to just correct some of the detail in the leader of the opposition's question, because the sequence of events was in this way: Betsi Cadwaladr had been reporting information into Public Health Wales. Up until 18 April, Public Health Wales published only a global Wales-wide figure of deaths, and Betsi Cadwaladr assumed—as I think they were entitled to do—that their figures were being reflected in that global Welsh figure. On 18 April, Public Health Wales moved to publishing deaths at a disaggregated, health board level, and immediately Betsi Cadwaladr alerted Public Health Wales to the fact that the figures that they had been submitting did not appear to be reflected in the figure that Public Health Wales published at the disaggregated level. Now, it then did take from 18 April to 23 April for Public Health Wales to work with BCU to discuss what had gone on and to carry out a data validation process, and we were informed on 24 April of the results of that discussion. That is the point that I said that I wanted further assurances from Public Health Wales that the detail that they were publishing stood up to scrutiny. And then—. So, I just want to be clear with the Member that a month didn't go by while people knew about this and did nothing about it. Betsi Cadwaladr alerted Public Health Wales on the day that disaggregated data was published, when they could see that something had gone wrong, and then it took until 23/24 April for that to come to the Welsh Government's attention.

Paul Davies, Llywydd, then asked me what has been done to make sure that figures from now on are accurately reported. He will see there are eight actions set out in the report published. Here are some of the most significant: weekly telephone calls between Public Health Wales and all local health boards to make sure that nothing is going astray; confirmation from the chief medical officer to each health board that they are to use the new electronic reporting system; increased local quality assurance; a further quality assurance check by Public Health Wales; and now, for the first time, the whole system to be overseen by the chief statistician, an individual independent of the health service itself and now involved in making sure that the figures published are ones in which we can all have confidence.

Well, I hope that the measures that you've now introduced will be sufficiently robust enough, because it is important that accurate information is published in order to maintain that public confidence.

Now, last week, as you said in your statement today, the Welsh Government published its COVID-19 exit strategy, 'A framework for recovery', which makes it clear that, to further understand the level of infection present in Wales, the Welsh Government is stepping up its testing capacity and capability. However, we know that there have been several significant issues with the testing programme in Wales and yet the Welsh Government's recovery framework offers no detail on how capacity and capability are actually being accelerated.

The framework also states that the Welsh Government needs to be able to track and trace future outbreaks both now, in the summer, and when the real pressure comes in the winter months, so that we do not have to reinstate restrictions once a decision has been made to lift them. It's absolutely essential that we have comprehensive community testing taking place across Wales to defeat this virus, and so it's disappointing to hear that the Welsh Government is choosing not to test all care home residents and staff.

So, First Minister, perhaps you could tell us in your response how the Welsh Government will be stepping up its testing capacity and capability, as well as telling us a bit more about how the Welsh Government intends to track and trace any future outbreaks. Surely, by not choosing to test all care home staff and residents across Wales, the Welsh Government is sending the message that community testing isn't that important in the first place.

Now, the framework for recovery also states that one of the factors to consider in lifting restrictions will be that there needs to be evidence that the Welsh NHS can cope with the expected increase in healthcare needs for at least 14 days if the infection rate goes above 1. So, in light of the Government's framework for recovery, can you tell us how the Welsh Government will actually be able to demonstrate that the health service could cope with any increase in the infection rate in future?

Llywydd, I thank Paul Davies again for those questions. On testing, the current testing plan that is in place involves testing patients, relatives, staff members, key workers—people who are in the front line of the current outbreak. We will need a different testing regime as restrictions come to be lifted, because, at that point, however carefully, however cautiously we go about it, the risk of coronavirus spreading in the community will be greater then than it is now, under the conditions of lockdown.

At that point—I agree with what Paul Davies said—that's when you need to have a community capacity of 'test, track and isolate'. The number of tests available in Wales is increasing—it's 2,100 today; it was 1,800 at the end of last week—and we've made good progress, over the last week, in making sure that care home residents and care home staff have access to the testing that is available.

We are further increasing our testing capacity this week—today, with the opening of facilities in Llandudno, which are both drive-through and mobile. We will have facilities available at Nant-y-ci in Carmarthen as of tomorrow. And we will continue to build that testing capacity.

The reason we don't offer tests to everybody in care homes, symptomatic and asymptomatic, is because the clinical evidence tells us that there is no value in doing so. Because of that, we don't do it. We offer the testing where the advice to us is that it's clinically right to do that. Testing people who have no symptoms today—for that to be a reliable message to them, you'd have to test them again tomorrow, because you can go from having no symptoms to having the symptoms in 24 hours. Using the capacity we have in that way would be to divert the capacity away from where it is clinically worthwhile to doing things where the clinical case for doing so is not one that has been advised to us, and that is why we're not doing it.

We are working with the care home sector to consider a wider testing remit in those care homes where there is clearly an outbreak of coronavirus. The case for wider testing there may be clinically stronger. That's being explored by our clinicians with the care home sector. And, of course, if we make further moves in that direction, we will inform the Assembly of that.

Paul Davies's final point, Llywydd, was the important one about the NHS having the capacity to cope with an upturn in coronavirus as we move out of lockdown. That is part of our framework and our plan. It's part of the reason why we continue to work on the field hospital capacity in Wales. As of today, we have thousands of beds available in the main NHS, including 3,000 acute care beds, and we have fewer critical care beds occupied today than we did this time last week. But we're not relying on that continuing to be the case as we move beyond lockdown, and we will monitor and, where necessary, augment the capacity that the health service has to make sure that, in doing the right thing—and I do think that finding the right way out of lockdown is the right thing—we don't end up putting ourselves back in the position that we've all worked so hard to try to come out of.

Plaid Cymru leader, Adam Price.

First Minister, the leader of your party has said we're possibly on track to have one of the worst death rates in Europe. Now, he was referring to the UK of course, but the same is, sadly, true for Wales. Why have we done so badly compared to so many other countries?

I don't think I am necessarily the best person to offer a comprehensive answer to that question, because the answer will rely on people with expertise in many different dimensions. I just want to remind the Member that, six weeks ago, we faced the position here in Wales where we had a genuine fear that coronavirus would take off to an extent that our NHS would be overwhelmed—we wouldn't have either beds in critical care or ventilators that were necessary.

I remember a very sober conversation with the leader of Plaid Cymru one weekend, when we talked about the invidious position that clinicians might face where they had to choose between people who would be offered treatment and those who might not be. All the efforts that we have made—in the NHS, in social care, and by Welsh citizens—mean that we are not in that position and have not been in that position.

So, the death rates of course are hugely concerning, and comparisons will be made of what has happened here with what has happened elsewhere, but in doing that let us not just set to one side the enormous efforts that people have made to avoid those very, very difficult and painful positions that at one time we thought were a realistic prospect here in Wales.

Can I ask about PPE? Will you publish formal medical advice from the chief medical officer on the use of protection, facial protection, by the public? And did you act on the recommendations of the New and Emerging Respiratory Virus Threats Advisory Group, the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies sub-committee, when it proposed that face visors and eye goggles were added to the pandemic stockpile in 2016, and when it did similarly as regards surgical gowns in June of last year?

I'll do my best to provide an answer to the Member's questions about the advice of a sub-committee in 2016—I don't think Members will expect me to have answers to that just at my fingertips.

On the issue of non-medical face coverings by members of the public, we remain in discussion with our own chief medical officer about the advice that he would provide on that. We're of course interested in the guidance that was published in Scotland yesterday. There are upsides and downsides to any course of action. Many members of the public are already wearing coverings of that sort, and clearly it gives those people confidence to resume parts of daily life. Our own chief medical officer, in the discussions that I've had with him already, points to the danger that people can take false reassurance from wearing face coverings of that sort. Quite certainly, if anybody thought, having a symptomatic cough, that putting a face mask on makes it safe for you to go out, they would not be following good advice. So, we continue in discussion with the chief medical officer. He will formalise his advice, no doubt, at some point, and once his advice is formal, then of course I'll be happy to make that public. 

Leader of the Brexit Party, Mark Reckless.

What is the point of fiddling with the legal framework that the UK Government and Parliament sets for England just to make it a bit different in Wales? Why is it important to follow rules a bit differently in Wales than in England? We saw many businesses close down who weren't legally required to, and a lot of those are working hard with customers, employees—sometimes with Government—to try and find ways in which they can reopen safely, and they apply their own common sense and their own knowledge of their individual business to do that. Yet, in Wales, they're also going to have to do jump through, comply, with legal regulations set by Welsh Government, by Ministers and civil servants, who won't know those individual businesses, and in most circumstances haven't worked in business themselves. How many jobs are we going to lose because companies decide they've got 20 times the business in England than they have in Wales and they don't want to take that compliance risk with those legal regulations you put specifically for Wales?

Why is it, in Wales, that people are only allowed to leave the house to exercise once a day, but there's no equivalent requirement in England? Why do the same words in regulations supposedly mean something different in Wales, according to Welsh Government, than what people in England are told by the police they mean there? For instance, why is it okay to go by car to an appropriate place to exercise in England, but not apparently in Wales? Why should there be a restriction on cycling in Wales but not in England, that somehow it's only acceptable to do that for exercise if it's within a reasonable distance of someone's home?

And the legal requirements in the regulations were, I believe, the same in Wales for lifting these extraordinary requirements and restrictions put on people, that they have to be lifted as soon as they're no longer necessary or proportionate for the risk of infection from coronavirus, and Welsh Ministers must do that. The UK Government, it's got five tests, but they are specific to those, go to those issues. You have published a much wider set of approaches that you say are rooted in Welsh values, but they don't seem to be rooted in the law that you're required to apply. They include: does the measure have a high positive equality impact? Are the measures consistent with your plans for an equal and greener Wales and its assessment with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015? And do they provide opportunities for widening participation in a more inclusive society? Today, we believe, what does Gordon Brown think? Why are those things applied here, but not in England, to get out of these draconian regulations devastating our economy and well-being?

Well, Llywydd, it is like slipping back not 20 years, but 120 years. The Member may as well have authored that famous entry in Encyclopaedia Britannica, 'For Wales, see England', because the answer to his question is: if I was to agree with him, what would be the point of the National Assembly for Wales? What would be the point of Wales at all? Because his argument is entirely that we should simply do what other people are doing elsewhere.

He was wrong when he said, in the beginning, that the UK Parliament had set a set of rules that somehow we were departing from. What the UK Parliament did was to provide the power to Wales, to Scotland, to Northern Ireland, and separately to England, to make rules and regulations for the different parts of the United Kingdom, and that is exactly what we have done. And where we have requirements that are different to other parts of the United Kingdom—and I so profoundly disagree with the Member in his constantly setting up England as the touchstone against which everything we do should be judged—where we do things differently to any other part of the United Kingdom, we do so because of Welsh needs and circumstances.

We were the first part of the United Kingdom to introduce rules in relation to caravan and campsites. Why did we do that? Because we were hearing the message so loud and clear from south-west and north-west Wales of people travelling to those parts of Wales and causing a public health danger to themselves and to others. Why do we say, 'Exercise once a day'? Because Ministers across the United Kingdom, including, he'll be glad to hear I'm sure, English Ministers, constantly say to people, 'Leave your home once a day for exercise.' 'Once a day' is what we say; 'once a day' is what we mean; 'once a day' is what our regulations say.

As for the 2m rule, which I think he was referring to, then I think that will be an asset to businesses in Wales, because what we are finding in the rest of the world is that simply to row back on regulations, open up things that were closed during lockdown, provides no guarantee that people will turn up to undertake those activities. You can open a shopping centre, and if people don't think it's safe to go there, nobody will come. You can open up workplaces again, and if people who have to work there believe that their health and well-being has not been thought about and protected, they will be reluctant to go there too. Our 2m rule, which responsible businesses in Wales have been abiding by very willingly, sends a message to workers in Wales that when the time comes to return to the workplace, their health and well-being will have been thought about, planned for and in place, and that will make those businesses more likely to succeed than if we had not taken that course of action.

First Minister, today is National Postal Workers Day, and I wonder if you will join me in thanking all those posties and their trade union, the Communication Workers Union, who do such fantastic work all year round and who, as designated key workers during the coronavirus crisis, have worked round the clock to make sure every community gets its mail.

First Minister, I have one additional point I want to ask, and that is in respect of local government finance. This crisis has taken a heavy financial toll on local government, and I understand that my own local authority, Rhondda Cynon Taf, is losing around £2.5 million income a month. So, it's a result of both the increased range of services that the council is providing and the reduced income, for example, as a result of leisure centres being closed. Local government is a critical front-line service that has, once again, stepped up. Rhondda Cynon Taf's response, not only during the pandemic, but during the flooding earlier this year, has been magnificent, and I want to congratulate the council and its leader, Andrew Morgan, and all the workers in Rhondda Cynon Taf for what they've achieved and what they continue to do. So, it's right that we recognise the vital importance of local government, but we also need to recognise that the current financial pressures on local government can only be sustained for so long. I would ask you, First Minister: what representations are being made to the UK Government to ensure that councils in Wales and, indeed, across the United Kingdom, will get the financial support that they need to survive during the coming months? 

Llywydd, I thank Mick Antoniw for those questions. I'm very pleased indeed to associate myself with what he has said about the fantastic work that postal workers do every day and have sustained during the coronavirus emergency. They are workers on the front line, as Mick Antoniw said, and we're really grateful to them for the way in which they have kept that part of normal life going through the whole crisis.

Mick Antoniw is absolutely right, of course, about the pressures on local government, and let me too say that I think that local government in Wales has demonstrated its strength during the last weeks in providing services at that local level to people where the need is greatest. We've been very fortunate, I think, to have local government in Wales led by Councillor Andrew Morgan, both as leader of RCT, but also as leader of the Welsh Local Government Association. The Welsh Government has already provided £110 million directly and additionally to local government in Wales, exceeding the £95 million we've had in consequentials from the UK Government for the same purposes in England. We are working with the WLGA who, together with the Local Government Association, are jointly making representations to the UK Government for further funding to take account of the lost income issue—a very serious issue for local authorities—and we as a Welsh Government are playing our part in making those points to UK colleagues too. 

The Home Office announced on 11 April that it was working with charities in England to provide an additional £2 million for domestic abuse helplines and online support. Almost two weeks later, Welsh Women's Aid wrote to your Deputy Minister stating that violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence specialist services across Wales have expressed confusion, frustration and concern as to what additional funding is being made available as a response to COVID-19. So, aside from the £1.2 million announced in December, what new money has therefore been ring-fenced by the Welsh Government for these specialist services in Wales?

Her Majesty's Government announced £200 million of new money for hospices in England, and it's understood the consequent allocation to the Welsh Government would be significantly more than the additional support of up to £6.3 million you announced for hospices in Wales. How, therefore, do you respond to the concern expressed by hospices across Wales that this additional money will not be used by the Welsh Government to support and sustain essential hospice services in Wales?

Llywydd, once again I simply reject this constant assumption that our job in Wales is to judge ourselves against what somebody else is doing elsewhere. What happens in a different part of the United Kingdom is not a template for Wales, and we're not to be judged against actions that other people choose to take in other parts of the United Kingdom. What we do is to make decisions in a way that meets Welsh needs, Welsh circumstances and our ability to respond to them.

The domestic violence issue is a really serious one. We know from evidence across the world that there is an upswing in domestic violence during periods of lockdown, as we have seen. There is nobody better placed than the Deputy Minister Jane Hutt, the founder of Welsh Women's Aid herself 30 years and more ago, to be in conversations with that sector to understand their needs and to make sure that we are doing everything we can to respond to them.

We have indeed announced £6.3 million additional funding for hospices in Wales. Hospices in Wales are funded in a different way to the way they are in England. It's a very important part of our landscape here in Wales, with a huge voluntary effort that is very much appreciated and has been very well supported by the Welsh Government through the work that we have done, and through the work that Baroness Ilora Finlay has done on our behalf. Again, we have regular, close and, I think, productive dialogue with that sector here in Wales, and we devise solutions that are right for them and right for us in Wales.

First Minister, you will be very aware that many farms in Wales are facing grave problems as a result of coronavirus and its impact on the food sector. Beef and dairy farmers, particularly, are facing huge losses of up to £10,000 a month in a number of cases.

These businesses aren't going to be able to carry that level of loss and that level of debt for too long, so urgent action in this area is crucial. These businesses, generally speaking, don't qualify for many of the business schemes that your Government has already put in place. So, my question, quite simply, is: will you as First Minister, and will your Government, introduce a bespoke support scheme for Welsh farmers who find themselves in difficulties as a result of this crisis? And if you are intending to do that, can you tell us when, because, as I say, time is a key factor in all of this? If you don't intend to introduce such a scheme, then perhaps you could explain why. 

Llywydd, I would like to thank Llyr Gruffydd for those questions. Just to say, first of all, that I do I recognise the problems faced in agriculture in the context of the coronavirus crisis. We have worked, and we do work, with farmers in the dairy sector, for example, to try to find more ways for them to make use of the milk that they produce on a daily basis in Wales. We know that where they sold milk prior to coronavirus that the demand there doesn't exist as it did presviously, but we do want to work with farmers in Wales in order to create alternative opportunities for them to use their milk by making more cheese or more butter, or whatever else they can produce. And I do know that those discussions are ongoing between our officials and leaders in the agricultural sector here in Wales.

I do acknowledge what Llyr Gruffydd said about debts. I'm sure that many people working in this area are concerned about their futures and I am, of course, happy to speak to Lesley Griffiths about a bespoke scheme, as Llyr Gruffydd suggested, to see whether that could be something that could assist people working in this area. If we can draw together everything that we're currently doing to assist people, then I am more than happy to take the opportunity to speak to the Minister with responsibilities in this portfolio to see whether such a scheme would be of assistance in showing what we're already doing and what we wish to do in the future in order to support people in our rural areas. 

Can I associate myself with the remarks that have been made so far about local government?

First Minister, I wanted to ask you about businesses. The support for businesses has been very welcome but, as you know, there are 178 job losses proposed at Safran in Cwmbran, and the aerospace industry is, I believe, uniquely at risk from this pandemic, so I'd like to ask you for an update on what discussions are taking place with Safran and for your assurances that you will work with the economy Minister to do everything possible to try to save those jobs.

I also wanted to ask about support for vulnerable shoppers. Things are much improved with the shielded group and online shopping, but I'm continuing to be contacted by disabled people who have always shopped online and now can't access online shopping slots. What progress is being made, First Minister, in actually opening up some more slots for those particular shoppers who, though they are not shielded, do need that support? Diolch yn fawr. 

Llywydd, I thank Lynne Neagle for both of those points. Coronavirus is a business emergency as well as a health emergency, and that is being felt in some very big employers here in Wales. I think certainty about the furlough scheme, so that companies know that it's not going to come to an abrupt end, that they can continue to hang on to their workforces and don't need to move to redundancy, is key to dealing with the sorts of issues that Lynne Neagle is identifying in her own constituency but which are there in many other parts of Wales as well. Those are companies who don't want to let go of their staff because they lose the skills that, in many instances, they have themselves invested in growing over many years. But the furlough scheme comes to an end not that many weeks from now. The Chancellor has announced one short extension to it; he needs to announce further extensions, particularly for the most vulnerable sectors, of the sort that Lynne has identified. And we continue to make that case very clearly to him. But a quick and abrupt end to the furlough scheme will simply result in costs to the UK Government, moving from the furlough scheme to redundancy costs and to benefit costs. So, much better to continue to invest in helping those companies to have a successful future, and, of course, we will do what we can through the economy Minister and his team to help in specific instances.

As far as shoppers are concerned, thank you to Lynne for what she said about the position being improved. I think they're much more confident now that those in the shielded group are able to access online shopping. For people outside that group who find that they're no longer able to get access in the way that they did, I think their first port of call is to their local authority hub. And it may be that there will be other arrangements that can be put in place where people can still get the food they need, and disabled people and others without networks of support can rely on the help that local authorities can provide to them. It may not be through an online shopping arrangement, but a volunteer going to the shop, getting what they need and taking it to them. And in line with what Lynne Neagle said and others have said, local authorities in Wales are, I think, successfully demonstrating that they're able to step into the breach where we have vulnerable people who don't have other networks that they can draw on.

First Minister, since you changed the criteria for the self-catering industry in terms of the grants applicable, I've been contacted by a lot of people—farmers, letting agencies—where they do have some self-catering units and this is their only income. Some had already received it, of course, prior to you making that new guidance, and so my question is: how can you square this now with those who have no income coming in because of the guidance that's now put in place? Those properties are shut down and they have no income coming in. 

First of all, Llywydd, to assure the Member that individuals who have already received help will be able to retain the help that they have received; we're not looking to claw it back from them. We have changed the advice to local government about self-catering accommodation because of the representations we received from local authorities in Wales, including her own Conservative-led Conwy, that the system was not operating in the way that made sure that help went to the right people. So, all we are saying is that people who rely on the self-catering letting, where the income they get from that is clearly a significant part of their income, then if they can demonstrate that, local authorities can continue to provide help to them. But we were paying millions of pounds—this is what local authorities said to us—to people for whom self-catering income was a marginal addition to the income they already had; it was at the edge of their income, not central to it.

We've responded to those representations. We have a set of rules in place that I think allow us to distinguish between people who were relying on this as their main income and their main business, and people for whom it was not that central to their incomes, and will allow us to use that money that otherwise would be going to people of marginal advantage for others who need it much more seriously. Local authorities have discretion, so if local authorities come across cases, then the Member will be able to talk to her local authority, and if they think it is right to exercise that discretion, they are able to do it under the rules we have devised with them.  

First Minister, last Thursday your Government announced a change in policy relating to testing people moving from hospital back into care homes. Until the end of last week, care home residents were routinely moving between hospital and care homes without being tested, but that's been rectified now. But I've spoken to one care home manager who thinks it's very likely that the virus entered the care home through that route, and a request for a resident to be tested before leaving hospital was denied. That care home has since suffered a number of deaths that they suspect relate to COVID-19. But, First Minister, given all this and the fact that Office for National Statistics data suggests that deaths from COVID-19 in care homes are much higher than initially thought, what assurance can you give us that the Welsh Government's failure to test care home residents has not led to numerous outbreaks and deaths in care homes in Wales? 

Llywydd, there were an awful lot of 'suspects', of 'maybes' and 'could-have-beens' in that question. What the Welsh Government did was to follow the clinical advice that we had that testing somebody leaving a hospital who had no symptoms of coronavirus, going to a care home, was not something that offered you any clinical assurance. Anybody with symptoms was tested all along. It was only people who had no signs at all of coronavirus that weren't tested, and the clinical advice to us was that a test of that person would offer you no reliable assurance that would make any difference to the decisions that were being made about that person.

The reason why we changed the guidance was not because the clinical advice had changed, but because we recognised the need to give confidence to people in the sector, that there were anxieties about people being discharged from hospital without a test even when that person had no signs of coronavirus at all, and because we recognise those concerns and the need to give confidence to people in that sector, we changed our arrangements so that people leaving hospitals, whether they have any symptoms or not of coronavirus, are now tested before they leave, and, indeed, we're extending that to any setting that somebody enters a care home from—not just from hospitals, but anywhere somebody entering a care home is moving from in Wales, that person will now be tested for coronavirus.

But to be clear with the Member, the medical and clinical advice remain all the same all the way through: that a test of somebody who has no symptoms doesn't offer you anything useful in making the right decisions for that person. We've done it because we want to make sure that, for those people who are providing such an essential service to people, and who have anxieties, we are doing things that we can to give them the confidence they need to go on providing the essential service that they are providing. 

The consequence of the dramatic restrictions on economic activity in recent weeks are likely to be even greater than those of the great recession of 1929-31. That means that the tax base is going to be significantly reduced and there'll be less money to spend on health and social services in the future. So, it's vitally important that restrictions are relaxed as quickly as possible. Of course, we have to take into account the impact on the coronavirus itself, but nevertheless, the Government should lean in the direction of economic freedom for the benefit of us all. 

In this respect, I wonder if the First Minister will consider the difference between rural Wales and urban Wales. There's a much greater chance of contracting the virus in heavily populated urban areas than in rural areas, and, therefore, might we be able to devise a scheme whereby we can relax these restrictions more quickly in sparsely populated rural areas than in heavily and densely populated urban areas?

Well, let me begin, Llywydd, by agreeing with what Neil Hamilton said about the significance of the restrictions that we are asking everybody to abide by. I absolutely do not underestimate at all what we are asking of people. Where I disagree with him is I think he wants to counterpoise what we do for people's health and what we do for the economy, and wants us to put the economy ahead of health as though these things were in competition with one another. I think there is nothing worse that we could do for the economy than to lift restrictions that lead to another significant peak of coronavirus later in the year, in which the current draconian measures might have to be reintroduced. I think that would be economically more damaging than regarding health and economy measures as hand in hand rather than in opposition with one another, and doing the right thing by people's health is to do the right thing by the economy. And that does mean doing these things in a way that puts the public health lens first, that is careful, that is cautious, that looks always at the evidence of the impact of any steps we are taking, and making sure that, as we move out of lockdown—and I want to move out of lockdown; I agree with him there that we have to find a path out of this—we do so in a way that doesn't further damage our economy by allowing the virus to circulate rapidly around the community again. 

I understand the point Mr Hamilton makes about things being different in rural and urban Wales, but all the messages that I get from rural Wales are messages of anxiety about doing things too quickly there, including allowing a lot of visitors from other parts of the country where the virus has been in more rapid circulation, to come to those parts of Wales. And if we're talking about opening up the economy of rural Wales, then tourism at this time of the year would be inevitably a very serious contender in that regard, and the level of local anxiety that might be created by doing so I think outweighs some of the arguments that can be made about differentiating between urban and rural contexts. People would be fearful that what we are doing is undermining the very conditions that Mr Hamilton pointed to, in which the virus is not in circulation in rural communities. And while I don't dismiss the argument—I think he points to a proper argument—I come to probably a different conclusion about how we should respond to it.

First Minister, I've received a great deal of positive feedback from businesses in the Cynon Valley regarding the economic resilience fund and how it's plugged the gaps in the provision from the UK Government. But I've also been contacted by several businesses that can't access the funds currently as they're below the £85,000 VAT threshold. Can I ask what work is taking place around this gap so that businesses can access the support they need to survive?

And on a separate note, I was really pleased to see the commitment from Welsh Government to feed free-school-meal pupils during the school holiday throughout the coronavirus. If this provision is shown to have achieved its goal, making sure that no child goes hungry, what consideration could be given to see if such a service could be provided 365 days a year, building on the school holiday enrichment programme?

I thank Vikki Howells for both of those. I believe that business support in Wales is more extensive than in any other part of the United Kingdom. And the way we are using our economic resilience fund really is stepping into some of the gaps that were there after the UK Government acted—and I always say at this point that we acknowledge the considerable steps they have taken to provide support for businesses.

We've paused the scheme as of Monday, and one of the reasons is that we want to look to see whether we can fine tune it. There was a good reason for using the VAT threshold mechanism, because it's a passport into the system that means it's much simpler for businesses to get our help. And one of the things we were anxious about with our fund was to get that help as rapidly as possible to businesses. One of the drawbacks of the UK help—which I appreciate is a function of the scale on which it has to operate—is that some of that help has taken a long time to reach where it is needed, and we are doing our best to get our help as fast as possible into the hands of those businesses. Being VAT registered allows us to cut out a lot of other things we may need to have asked businesses to do, to establish that they are a genuine business and therefore eligible for public funds. What we are looking to see, as part of the review, is whether there is anything we could do to address the issue that Vikki Howells has raised.

And again, thank you for what she said about free school meals. We were the first part of the United Kingdom—I've no doubt Mr Reckless will want to know why we did anything in advance of England, but we were the first part of the United Kingdom to fund and guarantee that we will provide free school meals to children in Wales during the rest of the crisis, through to September, building on the success of the holiday enrichment programme.

On the whole, coronavirus is a pretty grim experience, and a very, very sad experience for many families in Wales. But there will be some things that we will learn that are positive lessons, that we will take from this whole experience. And the way we've been able to respond to vulnerable children, and continue to offer support to them, will be one of the places we will want to look to see whether there are things we can do differently and better in the future.

First Minister, I had a very beneficial meeting with the Isle of Anglesey Tourism Association last week. And I'd like to thank the sector for responding so well to the difficult situation that they face, with so many of their members facing grave losses. I would be delighted to see them restarting their businesses, but that's impossible at the moment.

There's a bank holiday on its way the weekend after next. We cannot afford to open the floodgates on that weekend, so could I invite the First Minister to make a clear statement that we will not, in any way, relax the rules and regulations that could make people think that they would be welcome to return to Wales to spend time in the beautiful areas that we do have here? That’s for another time. So, can we have that statement today, please?

I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for that important point. And as I said in response to Neil Hamilton, of course we are thinking of the tourism businesses the length and breadth of Wales, and I do know, because I have heard from many people in that position, the problems that they are facing. But, for me, the solution isn’t simply to open the floodgates unless everything is in place and we can be confident that doing that won’t create problems in the health sector.

I’ve heard what the Police and Crime Commissioner for North Wales said about the upcoming bank holiday and I have been discussing that point with the other UK Governments. Because, as Rhun said, we could say and do something here in Wales, but it’s important to convey that message to others, that we don’t want to see people travelling into Wales over that bank holiday and creating the problems that we know that would lead to. It’s important to get that message out there, not just here in Wales, but outwith Wales too. That’s why we are talking to other Governments so that our message is consistent.

Finally, Carwyn Jones.

I apologise for the technical issue that prevented me from joining when I should have done. That's been resolved now, as you can see. First Minister, do you share my despair sometimes that there are still some people who think that, for Wales, we should always compare ourselves with England? Some 20 years ago, I saw correspondence from the then chief medical officer warning of the dangers of the link between bovine spongiform encephalopathy—BSE—and Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease—CJD—and the response from her counterpart in the UK Government was basically, 'You are in Wales; know your place'—words to that effect. How sad it is that what is born of an inferiority complex—that somehow England must be better—is still with us. We could argue, of course, that what England has done is actually diverge from Wales and not the other way around.

Could I bring you on to testing? From what I understand, then, that you're saying is that testing is of little clinical value unless people are tested on a daily basis. So, simply offering somebody a test because they're in a vulnerable group is of no use at all unless the same person is tested on a daily basis in order to see if they have the virus, if they are asymptomatic when the first test takes place.

The second point is this: there will come a time when all this is over and we hope, of course, that that time will be sooner rather than later, but for those of us who remember the banking crash in 2008, where bankers took people's hard-earned savings and took them off to, effectively, the equivalent of a banking casino and blew them all, they were bailed out by people working in the public sector—those people who are now working very hard on not much pay; those people who have given all their time—many, many hours, every single day—to save lives and look after people. They were the people through pay freezes and austerity who were made to pay for what other people had done. Can you give me an assurance, First Minister, that when this is over, the bill for the money that is being borrowed by the UK Government will not rest disproportionately on the shoulders of public sector workers who are working so hard, but instead, we will look at highly paid footballers; we will look at large businesses, many of whom—some do—but many of whom do not pay their fair share of tax, and we will take seriously the issue of tax avoidance in order to make sure that those who have the broadest shoulders are able to pay in the future and also that those who are giving so much now are not penalised, given the fact that they're saving so many lives?

Llywydd, can I thank Carwyn for those three points? I do share his sense of despair at the know-your-place approach to devolution. But, personally, I've never settled for the idea that devolution is about competitive comparisons with other parts of the United Kingdom. It is much, much more about each one of us doing the things that we think are right in our own places and learning from one another in the experiment that that naturally creates.

Carwyn makes a very important point about testing. If you're not symptomatic today, that does not mean to say that you may not have acquired the virus by tomorrow. If you're going to try and draw any value from testing non-symptomatic people, you'd have to do it every single day, and those are tests drawn away, then, from people who really do need to be tested where proper conclusions can be drawn. So, I understand that people somehow believe that having a test gives you an answer and creates a set of certainties, it just doesn't if you don't use the tests in the right way, and we're trying to use them in the right way here in Wales. 

And can I end, Llywydd, by just echoing everything Carwyn Jones said in his last remarks? He is echoing an argument that he made over 10 years of austerity that the price of the banking crisis should not be loaded onto the shoulders of those least able to bear it. And, yet, that is exactly what we saw: people whose benefits weren't raised for year after year; people whose wages were held down year after year; all those people doing all the things that we have had to value during this crisis who weren't valued at all. And we cannot and must not allow the UK Government to believe that the answer to the expenditure that has necessarily and rightly been incurred to deal with coronavirus is to be clawed back by a re-imposed austerity in which all the costs fall on all those people who have done the most to help us get through it together. 

I thank the First Minister. 

The next item is a statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services on coronavirus, and I call on the Minister to make the statement—Vaughan Gething. 

Thank you, Llywydd. Members will, of course, know that I have committed to keeping you informed about COVID-19 developments, and this is my latest statement to do just that. 

The challenge from coronavirus is far from over. We have been successful in ensuring that our NHS has not been overwhelmed, but we continue to operate in an uncertain environment, and that  will continue for some time to come. It's clear that the NHS and our social care systems must operate with COVID-19 as an ever-present challenge for the foreseeable future. So, we must remain vigilant and continue to use the best scientific evidence and advice to inform how we plan services moving forward. Today, I want to update Members on a number of important developments.

We have to take unprecedented steps to increase all aspects of NHS activity to cope with the onset of COVID-19. That's staff, beds, medicines, equipment and more to plan for the worst possible scenario to provide services to meet the needs of those who are affected by COVID-19. That, of course, meant that I had to take the first decision within the UK to pause a wide range of other elective NHS activity.

We've had to give careful consideration to how essential services can be provided during this time. Without that, there's a significant risk that indirect mortality and serious harm could increase dramatically. Difficult decisions have had to be made to balance those demands, and that, again, will continue for some time to come. Our ethical framework, though, will help to guide our decision making.

At the end of March, the World Health Organization issued interim operational guidance for maintaining essential health services during the outbreak. That guidance is informing our own approach to maintaining services now and in considering any changes that we will make as we move forward. The World Health Organization suggests that, in selecting such priorities, it should initially focus on the prevention of communicable diseases, particularly through vaccination; services related to care during pregnancy and childbirth, reproductive health and the care of vulnerable populations, such as young infants and older adults; the provision of medicines and supplies for the ongoing management of chronic diseases, including mental health conditions; and the continuity of critical in-patient therapy and the management of emergency and acute presentations that require time-sensitive intervention; and just as importantly, services such as diagnostic imaging, laboratory services and blood bank services.

This is obviously complex, but minimising harm and determining where care is time-sensitive are the key priorities. Innovative solutions are and will continue to be found, including the use of digital and IT to provide those answers, as well as considering regional solutions, for example for cancer treatment. There remains, though, a need to balance the risk and benefits of having treatment at this time, including, as I said, for example, people with cancer. That is something that needs to largely be determined on an individual level between the patient and their treating clinician.

We are acutely aware, and concerned, as I have expressed previously, about a fall in the use of urgent and emergency care services. There's a real risk of harm to people who may have serious illness but are not dialling 999 or presenting at emergency departments as they should, or indeed scheduled urgent care.

To date, in April 2020, we have seen a 29 per cent reduction in ambulances transporting patients to hospital compared to the same period in April 2019. Daily average attendances at our emergency departments have reduced by 50 per cent, and emergency admissions to hospital by 35 per cent in April compared to February this year, prior to the outbreak of COVID-19 in Wales. Clinicians in our emergency departments report an increase in people with anxiety or emotional distress upon presentation, and people who had indeed presented later than they should manifesting in additional health complications.

So, I urge people who are seriously ill and need urgent advice or treatment to use NHS Wales services, because our clinicians and health professionals are still there for you. People who are concerned about attending emergency departments should be reassured that they will be screened on arrival, and they will also be segregated from any patients with symptoms of COVID-19. There are now well-established protocols and pathways across the urgent and emergency care system to optimise safety and limit the spread of the virus.

The World Health Organization identifies the need to develop a road map for a progressive, phased reintroduction of services. This will be a further important consideration to inform local and national recovery plans. Any such plans will need to ensure that we can reintroduce surge capacity flexibly and quickly, as well as maintain essential services if faced with a further peak of virus transmission. These are, understandably, difficult scenarios to plan for, and I do want to thank again our NHS staff and those working in partner organisations who continue to rise to the extraordinary challenge of this once-in-a-century event.

Personal protective equipment remains my No. 1 priority to keep our staff safe across health and social care. I can confirm that from 9 March to 26 April, we have issued over 60 million items of PPE for the use of front-line health and social care staff, with over 12 million items delivered for the use of front-line staff specifically in social care settings. Last weekend, we received masks from China into our NHS shared services stores. PPE equipment for use in care homes and social care environments are being managed by local social services who know their own geographical area and can co-ordinate priority deliveries. Yesterday, as we know and from the pictures we saw, vital supplies of personal protective equipment for our front-line health and care workers in Wales arrived at Cardiff Airport. The flight into Wales carried 200,000 fluid-resistant gowns from Cambodia. In total, this week, we expect that 660,000 gowns will be flown into Cardiff Airport, from Phnom Penh in Cambodia yesterday, and on a later flight we expect later this week from Hangzhou in China.

As well as taking these initiatives on procuring PPE for Wales, we continue to work closely with other UK countries through mutual aid arrangements and to ensure an equitable share of UK-wide PPE procurement.

On testing, Members will be aware that testing is now also available to critical workers and members of their family if they have suspected COVID-19. The current daily capacity is now more than 2,000 tests a day, but we're working hard to increase that number and to make sure that all available tests are being taken up as far as possible.

In order to continue to expand our testing programme, we're opening up more mass drive-through testing centres in addition to the Cardiff and Newport centres and the community testing centres that are already in place. So, this week, from today, there are more testing centres in Llandudno, and from tomorrow we expect the Carmarthen centre to be open. A further centre will soon follow, and that is likely to be in the Merthyr area, and we're also looking at how we strengthen capacity in Ceredigion, Pembrokeshire and Powys. Our approach involves a hub-and-spoke model with mobile units operating to give greater reach and flexibility.

Now, as I've made clear on a number of occasions, care home staff and residents have always been and remain a priority for us, and we have already expanded testing in the care home sector. I want to be sure that we're doing everything that we need to to keep staff and residents safe. So, to that end, last week we announced that we will be testing those being discharged from hospital into care homes, whether they are symptomatic or not, further protecting our most vulnerable people, and, crucially, giving confidence to the care home sector to allow discharges to be made from hospital when it's no longer the appropriate place for the care and treatment of individual people.

We're working with our partners to monitor and respond to the prevalence of coronavirus in care homes and will further revise guidance to and for care homes based on the latest evidence. Now, of course, I'm aware of the UK plans announced last night to expand testing in a range of areas. As I have said on a number of occasions, we will continue to extend the number of tests available and to keep our testing strategy under review based upon the evidence. I've committed to providing further updates on a regular basis.

Sadly, we continue to see deaths on a daily basis. Every one is a tragic loss for families, friends and communities affected. Understanding and acknowledging the numbers of people who are dying is important to all of us, including Ministers. Yesterday, we published a report following the identification on 23 April of a significant number of deaths that had not been reported to Public Health Wales. The actions identified within the report that I published yesterday have already been put in place, and, of course, they were covered in earlier questions to the First Minister.

Yesterday, many of us stood in silence for a minute to remember workers who have lost their lives to coronavirus or work-related accidents or ill health. On Monday, I announced that families of NHS Wales and social care workers who die in service as a result of COVID-19 will be entitled to financial support with a payment of £60,000. That is in addition to any other existing pension arrangements. I know that our front-line workers are going above and beyond to care for vulnerable patients every day, and this scheme gives equal recognition to staff across health, social care and community pharmacy. It provides a safety net for eligible staff who have delivered front-line services and who may not, perhaps, have been eligible to join the pension scheme or decided not to because of affordability, but also to those already in a pension scheme. I hope this will be of some help during a difficult time, although, of course, I recognise that a lump sum payment does not recognise the loss of a life. 

I'll be making an oral statement on a regular basis so that Members are assured about the COVID-19 measures being taken across the health and care system, so in addition to the committee scrutiny, which is restarting, there'll be a regular point of not just information but opportunities to ask me questions. I continue to urge people everywhere to follow the guidance, to stay at home, stay safe, help protect our NHS, and to save lives. 

Thank you for your statement. However, you'll be aware that I've raised concerns since the middle of March regarding the number of deaths in our care homes here in Wales, and in particular in my own constituency of Aberconwy. I do recall the first death was recorded here in Aberconwy on 13 March.

Now, of the 302 deaths in Welsh care homes, 109 are registered as having passed away, sadly, to COVID-19. We know of the situation of the care home in Newport that lost 15 residents in just one month, whilst 14 had symptomatic coughs and high temperatures, only two were recorded on the death certificates as having COVID-19.

I welcome your statement and the mention that at some stage you would like to see all care home residents—testing made available to everyone, but could you state by when you expect testing to be made available to all asymptomatic care home residents? Whilst I've been live on here today, I've had a number of e-mails from worried relatives, worried care workers, because I'm afraid just testing people who are coming from hospital—which is a great plus, I must say; I've raised concerns on this—the testing of more residents and care homes is a must. It's a given, and if you speak to anyone in the social care sector, the surroundings of a care home are considerably different to a hospital setting, so it's quite a vulnerable set. Also, I would want to know—from a request by a care home, now—currently for COVID-19 tests to be undertaken, how long will it take for that test to be taken and for the results to be delivered back?

Some care homes have lost as many as 60 per cent of their residents for one reason or another and have bed occupancy as low as 20 per cent. The figures needed to be viable and sustainable—they must have 90 per cent occupancy. Some are resorting to—

Janet Finch-Saunders, you need to come to your final question.

Right, okay. In a written statement on the £40 million financial assistance for adult social care, you stated there was the potential to make further allocations. Will you act on this so that more finance can be accessed by homes that are facing closure?

Thank you for the series of questions. On the point about financial support, the position is as indicated in my initial statement: when providing £40 million-worth of support for adult social care, we'll continue to review provision. We're already having direct conversations between my officials, the Welsh Local Government Association and members of the independent care home sector about the sort of support that could be made available and the base upon which that could happen. It's not actually a straightforward matter, but obviously I'm concerned that care homes remain in business. It's not just a matter of sustaining part of the business sector—they're in a different position to other businesses, because these are businesses who are caring for some of our most vulnerable people.

On the rest of your range of questions largely about the care home sector, we already have regular reporting, a commitment to regular reporting, which I've confirmed earlier this week. That's work that we're doing both within the Welsh Government, with our chief statistician and with the Office for National Statistics. There'll be regular reporting in public each week about what we understand the position to be, and I think that's important in terms of assurance and making sure that we're open and transparent.

On asymptomatic testing: this was well covered in questions to the First Minister in his statement, so I just repeat again that if you simply test everyone and anyone in the care home sector, it does not provide the assurance that people may seek, because the same people could be symptomatic or asymptomatic but positive the day after having had a negative test, and we do need to understand the utility and the purpose of the testing regime that we implement.

There is, though, a question—and I've discussed this today with the chief medical officer—about whether or not we ought to revise our testing strategy approach, based not only on a developing evidence base, but the evidence around the utility of a test if someone in a care home does test COVID-19 positive, and whether we do then need to test other residents or staff, and if so, on what basis? In terms of the time it takes from referral to test, I'm really pleased to say that the evidence we've had both from local government and indeed the improving evidence from the independent care home sector is that they're being much quicker and that people are being referred and then tested on the same day as a matter of course. And I hope that's really helpful in terms of providing the assurance that the sector and the wider public need to hear, because, as I say, this is a matter of real priority for the Government and the national health service.

That was actually very reassuring. My second question is more to do with health. I have a number of constituents approaching me in desperate need of dentistry, some in quite severe pain. The dentists are wanting to carry out the treatment, however they simply do not have the necessary PPE to do this. So, what guidance—how are you helping those in our dentistry profession to actually be able to continue carrying out dentistry?

Well, on dentistry, we know that they've had to close down, apart from emergency procedures, but if they're undertaking NHS contract work then the PPE guidance should apply. If there are specific instances for me to address then I'd appreciate it if the Member, or others, could provide me with those details, because I haven't had a sector-wide issue across dentistry brought to me in the past. But, as ever, I'm always happy to look at the evidence of what is taking place on the ground and even on an individual level to see what we could and should do to resolve that. But, obviously, I'd expect that Members, in representing constituents, would first have contacted their local health board to understand how supplies of PPE are being managed right across the health sector.

I'll start with two brief questions on ventilation and oxygen. The Minister has confirmed that, of the 461 invasive ventilators that were due to come to Wales under UK arrangements, 46 have been delivered. On 9 April, I raised a concern with the Minister and the First Minister—brought to my attention by doctors, I should say—that ventilators earmarked for Wales had gone to field hospitals in England. Now, I was told that that's just not true. I know now we're being told now that we don't need those ventilators, but can the Minister tell us where all those Wales-destined ventilators went? Secondly, I first wrote to the Minister on 28 March advocating earlier intervention with oxygen for COVID-19 patients, rather than pursuing the protocols that are still in place, which are basically asking people to wait until they're very ill before presenting themselves, and for many it's already too late then, and international evidence is pretty strong now on the lifesaving benefits of early intervention. Can the Minister seek an urgent review of how many patients who've sadly lost their lives so far in Wales were offered early intervention, so that we can try to learn from that and help future patients?

On the final point made there, about the provision of oxygen treatment earlier in a patient pathway, it's a matter we've discussed. It's a matter where we've had clinical correspondence—not just letters from Mr ap Iorwerth—and it's a matter that our clinicians are actively considering. So, I'll discuss the matter again with our chief medical officer, about whether there is a need to undertake a review, but it should be that there's a need and a point and purpose to doing so. It's that learning and understanding of how we treat people effectively that matters to me, and I expect that that's exactly why Rhun ap Iorwerth is asking his questions.

On the point about ventilators, I issued a written statement today, providing some factual clarity about where we are. Just to reiterate, there are no missing ventilators. Ventilators have not been purloined from NHS Wales to be made available in other parts of the UK. We are receiving those over the course of the procurement exercise, but, if you'll recall, when we originally procured additional ventilators for use in NHS Wales, we were expecting a peak to take place in June, as opposed to the position that we are in now. We still expect to have use of those ventilators that we originally contracted for. We are, though, now in the very positive position that we haven't needed that ventilator capacity, and part of the policy objectives we're trying to pursue are how we not just look at an exit through lockdown, but continue to behave in such a way where we don't need to make the use of all of that capacity at the same time. That's because we as a country have been successful in social distancing measures and that's made a really big difference to the spread of the virus and the level of really sick people that we've seen come into our critical care capacity. So, I hope that's helpful in providing some reassurance that there are no missing ventilators as far as Wales is concerned.

Thank you for that response. I move to three brief and distinct questions around the area of testing. The Government's document, 'Leading Wales out of the coronavirus pandemic: a framework for recovery', quite rightly calls for effective case identification and contact tracing when we move to relaxing restrictions, but we still have no clear plan for achieving that effectiveness. Roughly how many tests per day will we need to be carrying out in Wales to be effective in this key element of battling coronavirus? Government may, of course, have a plan and it's not being communicated with us; briefings are very useful in that respect. Can the Minister tell us if it's true that the chair of Public Health Wales asked to be able to brief opposition party leaders, but that she was told she couldn't? And, finally, questions have been raised already in the session today about the decision not to broaden testing to all care home residents and staff. We've been told multiple times this afternoon that you don't believe, as a Government, that this is a good use of resources, but let me just remind you: by now, we were meant to be testing 9,000 a day. We have a capacity now, we're told by the First Minister, of 2,100 per day; yesterday, we tested 734. So, isn't the truth of the matter that (a) we still don't have the capacity and (b) we're still not identifying enough people to be tested in this war against coronavirus? 

I'll happily deal with those three areas. The first is probably the easiest. There is absolutely no instruction to the chair of Public Health Wales that she can't brief opposition party leaders. We're providing a huge amount of information on a daily basis and, indeed, there are regular briefings that I provide to the official opposition spokesperson and Rhun ap Iorwerth in his role for Plaid Cymru. So, we've been very open from the outset about what we're doing as a Government, including where there's disagreement about what we're doing. So, I'd be disappointed if anyone was trying to suggest there's been an attempt to try to prevent information being provided to elected representatives, when that is the very opposite of what we have been doing.

On testing in care homes, we're going through the issues that have been raised before. The point about our plan for the future is it's part of a broader plan about the testing strategy being part of the underpinning for what we do about recovery, moving out of lockdown. How do we get there? What does a proper public health surveillance system look like? We are working through that, and, of course, when I'm in a position to do so, I'd be happy to discuss that with Assembly Members.

The point about where we are on testing is, following the review that I ordered, I've been really upfront about the facts; I provide a weekly update on where we are in our testing capacity. I expect that to increase each week, and we then need to understand what does that mean in terms of the measures that we may want to take to move out of lockdown and the capacity we think we may need. It's important to see that as part of a whole, rather than having a plan for testing that isn't linked in to what we actually want to use that testing for, because our current capacity is enough for the current purpose of testing—for critical workers whilst we are in lockdown.

But, as I have said on a regular basis, we will need a bigger testing infrastructure, in terms of the ease of access for people to use that testing infrastructure, as we approach the end of lockdown, even if we're moving in those cautious steps that we've advocated, that we've said that we want to try to move forward with, and that remains the position. I'll continue to provide that weekly statement, that weekly update, and I'll continue to be happy to deal with Members' questions on where we are, and, when we're in a position to have that wider plan, then, of course, you'll hear about it.

Thank you for your statement, Minister. Yesterday, we observed a minute's silence for our heroes in social and health care who lost their lives to the scourge of COVID-19, and I want to once again put on record my thanks to our dedicated health and social care workforce, who are keeping us all safe, and offer condolences to those who have lost loved ones.

We still do not know enough about this virus, and, as we continue to flatten the curve, we must redouble efforts to understand this enemy. Minister, it appears that, on a per capita basis, south-east Wales is the hardest hit part of the UK. Cases per 100,000 people are at 441 in Newport and 436 in Cardiff, while the hardest hit part of England, Brent, has only 396 cases per 100,000—the same as Swansea. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of why we have such high incidences of infection?

Of course, these are just the hospital-confirmed rates, and, if we are to truly understand the infection rates, we need to ramp up serological testing. Minister, what progress has been made in developing plans for randomised antibody testing across Wales?

This pandemic has had a massive impact on mental ill health, and we have seen an increase in suicide rates. Minister, what plans does your Government have to increase the availability of remote talking therapies? Can you outline other measures the Welsh Government are taking to combat the impact of the virus on mental health?

One of the biggest risks facing us is a second outbreak coinciding with the flu season. What plans does the Welsh Government have to massively increase the flu vaccination programme, and will you consider giving free vaccines to everyone in Wales?

It is well established that measles wipes out the body's immune memory. Minister, will you ensure that all vaccination programmes continue and do all you can to ensure everyone eligible for vaccination receives it? Thank you once again for your continuing efforts. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you for the series of questions. On your first point, about actual rates of coronavirus infection, of course, these are the recorded instances, and we always have a health warning in every part of not just Wales, but the rest of the UK, that the real figures are likely to be higher. So, I'm not going to be drawn on definitive comparisons of different parts of the UK, but we know that the south-east part of Wales has had the most significant impact. You can see that not just in the number of confirmed cases, but actually in the way that our hospitals have seen people come into them requiring care, and in particular the way that intensive care capacity has been used. That is just as good a marker, if you like, of the circulation of the virus in different parts of Wales.

So, of course, we take seriously and want to understand exactly how the virus behaves as its behaviour has changed during the course of the pandemic. So, there are lessons from other parts of the UK, and a need to learn lessons within and across Wales, and that is a regular feature of the work and the discussions that we are having within Government and indeed within the service.

In terms of your point about an antibody test, we're not yet at the point where we have a reliable antibody test we can roll out across the country. There's a range of work on that. There's testing of a range of potential tests that are in the market, and every now and again you may see on social media someone claiming to have a useable and effective antibody test. Well, we need to test whether those claims are real or not and whether we can actually provide an antibody test that provides the level of usefulness that it plainly could have. That's why it features in our strategy, because we understand how useful that could be in understanding both the spread of coronavirus and how we actually take measures in the future to protect the wider public.

On talking therapies and mental health generally, it's part of my concern and part of my concern that I've set out previously about the use of our services. I'm not just concerned about physical health, I am just as concerned about mental health, both of the public but also of our staff, who are—. Despite the fact that the impact of coronavirus to date has not been as significant as we thought it really could be a few weeks ago, our staff are still dealing with an extraordinary period of events and there's a very real strain on our staff in doing so. That's why I've increased the availability across health and social care of access to support for our staff in doing their work. We need to keep them well so they can help to protect us. 

On flu vaccine, I think the constant message is the take-up of the flu vaccine. So, people who have been advised to take further care and to especially pay regard to social distancing—the starting group is for people who get a flu vaccine on the basis of their medical conditions. And it's a constant struggle each year—despite a very high profile public campaign, many people still don't take up the option they do have to have a free NHS flu jab. I certainly hope that this year people take even more seriously not just the opportunity but the real value in making use of that NHS flu jab to keep themselves and their family safe.

And there's the broader point about vaccination programmes. It's one of the key points I made not just in my statement but in previous statements, about wanting to maintain various parts of our public health architecture, and vaccination programmes are obviously a crucial part of that. So, in particular for parents of young children, please make sure that your children do continue to attend and take up those vaccines, because it's important not just to keep them healthy from coronavirus, but actually in their general health. The last thing I'd want to see are those common illnesses that we know cause real harm make a reappearance because as a nation we don't make sure that our people get vaccinated when they could and should do.

Minister, we have some absolute heroics going on in the care sector at the moment—managers of care homes and front-line staff in domiciliary and residential care are going way beyond the call of duty. They're not just caring for our loved ones who are locked down and in isolation, but they're trying to adhere to physical distancing when working with residents with dementia and those who will wander. They're dealing with more frequent incidents of bereavement, and some care homes have been especially impacted, and all of this is being exacerbated by the difficulty of families and friends being isolated from the residents in life and in death. Our care workers are genuinely heroes. They always have been, of course, but it's now evident for all those who've not seen this before. So, Minister, what will the future look like for these heroes? When the public health battle against COVID-19 is won, will they be truly better valued in society? And crucially, Minister, will they be truly better paid and have better terms and conditions and a professional career path?

And on a related note, Minister, what does a far more integrated health and social care effort look like in Wales in future times of comparative calm and peace, having learned the lessons of how essential integrated working is in the heat of the battle against a pandemic?

Again, I think it's a really important point that Huw Irranca-Davies makes about people who've been isolated in life and death; that it's very, very hard, both for people who know they're nearing the end of their life, but also their families who may not be able to see them and derive a sort of comfort and closure that those of us who have suffered loss within our own family and friends would understand makes a really big difference to being able to move on.

In terms of the future for social care staff, whether in residential care or otherwise, I certainly haven't forgotten my commitment and a place where I want us to get as a nation. I hope that the current crisis, the extraordinary time we're living through, means that people won't just wander out every Thursday to applaud key workers, not just in our national health service but in social care and wider, and then forget about the conditions that they work under and the pay that they receive the month after the COVID-19 crisis is over. Because it does ask questions that we all need to ask about the sort of country we live in and how we value each other, because we've really seen the enormous value that a number of people, who are poorly paid, provide to the way that we all expect to be able to live our lives and, frankly, the way we expect our relatives to be cared for in a way that other countries, for example, have much greater familial care and provision. That's what we don't have here. So, I certainly want to see continued moves made forward on pay, on career progression, on terms and conditions. So, the work that was paused on the ministerial group on paying for social care that, at one point, you were the chair of during your time in Government, that has continued. It's been paused because we were about to publish a series of reports to start a national debate just before coronavirus became a much bigger issue. I don't want to let that work go, but I certainly hope that's not just a commitment from the parties in Government, but much broader afield across each and every party about how we properly reward people and recognise them. And that recognition is in our integrated system; we're in a better place because we've made steps along the path of integration here in Wales. I think far from undermining the plan in 'A Healthier Wales' for health and social care, it reinforces the need to make steps on that journey and to make them more quickly, because they provide a better benefit, not only for our staff, but for the public that we serve.

Minister, the infection rate known as 'R' is below 1 because of the lockdown and vigorous social distancing. It seems to me that the only way it remains below 1—and in Germany we're already seeing that is a formidable challenge—is if we can test and trace extensively. But we're still quite vague on what that system is going to look like. I know in England they're aiming to recruit 18,000 contact tracers; that would give us roughly 900 in Wales, if we needed a similar capacity. But lots of questions about what technology will be used and where these people will be recruited. Will they be more local authority based or health authority based? What's it going to look like? And how are we going to deal with the particular challenges of high-density housing, tower blocks and that, where lots of people don't know their neighbours, and yet the knowledge and passing the information on of who's been in contact with whom and how is really very important? Without that picture, it seems to me we can't move significantly out of lockdown. And can you give us a bit more detail on what that picture is going to look like in Wales?

I expect to be able to provide that within a fairly brief timescale. It's why, I think, having a testing target that isn't linked in to what we actually want to achieve doesn't actually make any sense. It's also the point that I made previously about having a testing target in isolation, where we're not in control of all the elements of it. The commitment to expand our testing capacity has not gone away. I'm certainly not trying to suggest to anyone, either here or any member of the public, that we're not concerned about expanding our testing capacity, because, as I have said repeatedly, we will need that in place for exactly the test-and-trace element of what recovery looks like. Because you are right to point to Germany, about the increasing rate of coronavirus. It's the lockdown and social distancing that have meant that we've not seen a further spread of coronavirus. That's what's meant that our hospital system has not been overwhelmed; that's why we don't have our field hospital capacity full. But it also reinforces why we shouldn't run the NHS hot and want to run it full and then go out of lockdown, because Germany is a really good example of that, about the challenges that you can have. As people mix more, then coronavirus will continue to be an issue.

So, I want to say more about that when there's a plan to talk to you about, rather than the outline conversations that we've had, but if you bear with us and our system, then we'll have much more detail to provide. And, again, I recognise that when that's available, there will be understandable scrutiny, not just from the press and the public, but I expect to be able to answer those questions in front of Members as well.

I'm glad to hear, Minister, that you're advocating better working conditions and salaries for nurses and care workers, because that strikes a very different tone to the one that you struck in answer to my questioning just some months ago, when I was raising concerns about proposed changes within Betsi Cadwaladr to nursing rotas in north Wales, which would have been, of course, to the detriment of the working conditions of nurses there. So, are you now saying that you will be backing the nurses and the unions, and not telling me that it's a matter for the board, and not a matter for Welsh Government?

Well, I think it's some jump to link the challenges over nurse rotas, where actually I played a part in getting the employer and trade unions back in the room to discuss matters and to resolve them, and to link the position now with the question on paying some of our poorest paid workers—a largely female workforce—in domiciliary care and residential care. I think that's just a leap too far.

I have always been committed to wanting to do the very best for our workforce in each part of the economy. It should be no surprise to you, not just as a Labour politician, but as a former shop steward myself who's been involved in pay negotiations, that I want to see people well paid. That's why the NHS continues to be a real living wage employer; it's why I made the moves I did on pay and terms and conditions where I am responsible for authorising and agreeing pay rates within the national health service. We have a commitment as a Government to want to see sectoral bargaining in other parts of our economy, and I think that would make a real difference in social care: it would provide some certainty.

We need to look at how that links into both commissioning at a national and local level, and we also need to do something about having the income to do so, because you know as well as I do that our ability to pay our staff properly does relate to the income that comes into our system. I think it's pretty difficult to have a much more sustained increase in the pay for social care staff without having more income coming in to do so, and that's why it's a very real consideration for us to use the powers that this national Parliament has, to use those in a way that would provide not just more money to go generally into social care, but what that means for our staff as well.

As I say, we were on the point of having that national conversation when the coronavirus pandemic struck, and all other forms of normal policy making had to take a backseat. So, the answer I gave to Huw Irranca-Davies remains, and my commitment through my whole entire political engagement remains to improving terms and conditions for workers right across the economy.

Can I press you again, Minister, on the number of testing centres? Yesterday, The Daily Telegraph reported figures from the Department of Health and Social Care that said there's only one testing venue in Wales. I've been in touch with the NHS Wales Informatics Service and they say that there are 21 testing centres. Can you tell me precisely how many testing venues there are that are up and running at the moment?

Can you also give some assurance about the NHS pneumococcal vaccine this winter and that there will be widespread availability, as it is helpful, I believe, for treating secondary respiratory infections?

Finally, on fertility clinics, when can we expect them to reopen? Will Wales be doing something different to England and can those receiving treatment at least have the option of pursuing treatment in private clinics, provided it's safe to do so?

On your final question about fertility treatments, I'd need to go through more of the detail. If you'd be happy to send me a note, I'll be happy to provide you with some more detail on the points that you raise.

In terms of people undertaking a variety of vaccination programmes, the point I made earlier stands, that we don't anticipate there being, at this point in time, a challenge with vaccine supply for other vaccines. The real challenge is getting the public to take up the vaccinations that are available, and to recognise the very real protection it provides to them and other people if they do so.

On your point about testing centres, it's not a surprise, but it's a constant source of frustration and disappointment to me that we have reports in other organs claiming to look at the UK-wide picture that don't accurately reflect where we are in Wales. We of course have more than one testing centre—we've got more than one drive-through centre—and the 21 that NWIS have provided you reflects not just the numbers of venues, but then there's something about the spread of those as well, because community testing involves people going out to people's homes. I've already said we're going to be at the point where we're going to have home testing available for people as well, and mobile units to go out and provide testing too. So this isn't just about getting people to a test centre; it's actually about getting the tests to people in a more convenient way. That isn't just an issue for rural Wales; it's an issue for large parts of urban Wales too, to make the testing programme as easy to access as possible. It's not just about the form-filling process, but then the practical access to the test itself, and we actually should then be in a world where we're able to move to a point where the test results themselves are sent directly to people by SMS if they have that. I think that texting response will remove yet another part of the challenge in the efficiency of the system. So, yes, NWIS are correct with their 21, but you need to see how those 21 different programmes and venues work in providing tests to people, and not just getting people to a different venue.

Minister, I'd just like to pick up on the question that David Melding asked you about testing and how we exit our lockdown. I understand that you haven't yet formulated all your plans and you need to work on them, and you want to put more meat on the bones, but I am concerned in respect of surveillance testing. You know the Welsh Conservatives have pushed for having a very clear departmental team in charge of making testing happen today, which we know it's not: 2,100 hospital tests can be done every day, and we're doing about 700, and it's nowhere near the ambition of 9,000. And we also want to make sure that that team has a really good idea moving forward of how we look at the whole surveillance issue.

Now, during last week's parliamentary Science and Technology Select Committee meeting at Westminster, the chief medical officer was asked about the plan for testing in Wales, and he basically intimated that there's a technical advisory group that takes details from SAGE and flexes them for a Welsh context. I just wondered if you could give us a little bit more detail on that. Who are these people? Are they from a science background, an NHS background? Are they actually modellers? What data, given that our data is not great in some areas, are they using to flex it for that Welsh context?

Yes, the technical advisory group is chaired by our chief scientific adviser on health. He co-chairs it. It does include a range of scientific expertise; it does include modellers; it includes people from public health backgrounds and others as well. So, it's a variety of people to try to understand the science and then to convert that into advice that is useful for our system and for Ministers. So, yes, we do have that expertise available to us, as do other Governments within the UK as well. You'll find similar arrangements, although they may have different names, in both Scotland and Northern Ireland too.

On your broader point at the outset about having a public health surveillance plan as part of the essentials that we'll need to move out of lockdown, which will include testing as part of it, that is work where there's a re-focus that's been undertaken. I'm still the Minister with responsibility, as you would expect, but we had a military planner who's done a review for us to look at where we are, and so we've looked at an internal reorganisation to give some internal leadership to that, so that the system we have, not just within the Government, but with our partners, can see more clearly how and where decisions will be made. Now, that doesn't make a particularly interesting press release, and we certainly can't turn it into a Twitter soundbite, but actually in terms of getting the system right, it's actually really important. So I'm expecting that grip and focus to be improved, and that should help us to get to where we all want to be, not just with a bigger programme with bigger capacity within it for testing, not just being part of that wider whole, but making sure that we actually get to use it in the way that we want to, with ease of access, ease of use, and that really should help us with the surveillance work we'll need to undertake as we exit lockdown, because as your colleague David Melding recognised, this isn't a simple or straightforward matter, and other countries that have gone first are finding this quite a difficult challenge to get through. It's been much easier to go into lockdown than to successfully come out of it.

This crisis has brought to the fore a fundamental problem at Ysbyty Gwynedd, Bangor in my constituency. For some weeks, I've been aware that a problem has arisen with the capacity of oxygen flow in Ysbyty Gwynedd and that, in turn, could restrict the ability of the hospital to deal with the COVID crisis. Resolving this is being given priority by the British Oxygen Company, and I'm grateful for the efforts made by local managers to ensure that that's the case. However, would you agree with me that we should have invested in this work over a period of time? It takes a crisis for this to happen. And do you agree that this is a clear sign that Ysbyty Gwynedd, Bangor is being downgraded quietly and through the back door?

Well, I'm pleased to hear the oxygen flow issues are being addressed and are being highlighted, and that's, of course, important. It's partly, though, because of the flexing up of critical care capacity and the much greater use of oxygen, and so the flow that's required has obviously increased. That's not a surprise when we think about what's happening. 

In terms of investing in that work over a period of time, well, as we learn lessons, not just at the end of this but all the way through this, we'll of course have questions to ask about what we have done but then more importantly what we choose to do in the future for our preparation, not just for a potential future pandemic, but actually for what we think of as normal business and what level of resilience we need. And that's quite a difficult debate, actually, because that is about how we use resources and how we spend money prospectively when, actually, we've gone through a period of more than a decade where, actually, it's been about a deliberate policy to take money out of public services, and we've all had to cope with a significantly reduced amount to do that with. 

On your final point about whether this means that Ysbyty Gwynedd is being downgraded, I simply don't agree with you. There is no secret plan to downgrade Ysbyty Gwynedd and to do it secretly and quietly through the back door, so I'm happy to reassure you that this isn't the plan of either myself or anyone else. The reconfiguration of health services right across the country is about how we design what works best within our health and care system and how we meet the challenge set for us by the parliamentary review that set out that, on some services, we could and should see a better service with better outcomes for people if we concentrate those highly specialist areas, but equally on others, they should move out of specialist centres either into local provision or, indeed, primary and community care. That is the basic plan that we have right across the country, and it's really important that we reflect that that is the best way to deliver the best possible care to each of us and that's the way we could and should organise our system.  

[Inaudible.] —being released daily. What can you do as Minister to make sure that last week's reported failure to keep north Wales's data accurate is properly rectified and not repeated?

Well, as I said, this has been dealt with in some detail by the First Minister, but I hope that the report that I published yesterday provides Jack Sargeant with the sort of certainty that he's understandably looking for. I think it is important to reflect that this wasn't simply a matter of people saying that it was the north Wales health board that got it all wrong. That isn't what happened. The issue that was identified came about when Public Health Wales published health board area data, and, at that point in time, Betsi Cadwaladr got in touch with Public Health Wales because they recognised that there was a problem with the figures that were being published. We now have a system where the recommendations of the report are being implemented, everyone is using the same system, and there's weekly contact between Public Health Wales and the health boards to provide the reassurance that all of us want, and that certainly includes Ministers as well as local Members in the different health board areas, because I want data that I can rely upon in the choices that I make for the whole country. 

Minister, I put a question to you in writing, and the response you gave me was simply,

'I will write to you and a copy of the letter will be placed on the internet.'

That was the answer there. I raise that point with you.

Secondly, I'd like to ask a question on behalf of Colin Brain and many others in the same situation in my region, because, in light of the statement made by you about not testing people without symptoms in care homes, he simply asks that, if his mother or others in the care home died due to a lack, in part, of testing, will you, the health Minister, take full responsibility for that and everything that that entails?

Well, as the Member has heard on a regular basis throughout not just this afternoon but on a number of other occasions, the evidence we currently have does not support general testing of people who are asymptomatic. If that evidence base changes and under specific circumstances or generally, then I'll be happy to shift the position of myself and the Government. And it's really important that we don't try to set out that there is a counsel of perfection that is available in one part of our system or another, because we'll continue to learn; we'll know more about coronavirus next week than we do this week. We'll have more evidence to base our choices on, and we may need to change the way that we deliver different services. I think if Ministers got ourselves into a position where we refuse to concede, refuse to acknowledge that there could be different, other evidence available in the future and we may make different choices, well, that would be doing entirely the wrong thing for the public.

So, I will continue to take responsibility for the whole system, for choices that I make, for the way that I give direction and the leadership that I give right across health and social care. If we do change what we are going to do, then I will expect not just to recognise that but to explain that, and to explain what we are doing and what the basis for that next choice is. And that, I think, is the sort of responsible leadership that all of us are entitled to expect not just from me, but from other people in their own leadership roles right across our health and social care sector. 

Minister, you'll be aware that the University of South Wales, based in Treforest, has been at the forefront of research about new ways of testing for coronavirus and that they produced a potentially game-changing rapid response test. It's part of an upsurge in local enterprise and innovation to produce personal protective equipment, and to develop new ways of testing that we've seen in Wales and which the First Minister commented on earlier. Now, I understand that the trials for Cwm Taf Morgannwg health board have gone well, and that the University of South Wales is now seeking support from Welsh Government for this important work. I wonder if you could update me on what the current situation is, whether there have been discussions between yourself and the University of South Wales, and on any progress that's been made in advancing this important project. 

I thank the Member for the question. This is an important and positive development in our growing evidence and research base about what we're able to do. The test that the University of South Wales have been involved in developing provides a rapid test result, and so we're looking to roll that out. It could be very helpful in both point-of-care testing but also home testing as well, and I'm happy to confirm that we have approved funding from our COVID-19 support mechanisms to allow that to carry on and carry forward to the next stage. And I'll continue to take an interest in the results of that. We're also doing some work with a business to progress the technology around this as well.

So, those offers, I understand, have gone out and they'll be aware that that support is being provided, and the funding support should lead us to a position where we understand if this is a technology to pursue and then to roll that out to provide the sort of rapid testing that will really change our ability to implement a different sort of testing regime and provide people with some real certainty in either their work places or, indeed, their homes. 

Finally, Delyth Jewell. 

Minister, ONS data suggests that COVID-19 deaths in care homes are substantially higher than is being recorded, and I've looked at the Aneurin Bevan data and it shows that there's an increase in deaths of non-COVID deaths in care homes this year. Now, that isn't what we'd expect moving from the winter into spring. Surely, the only explanation that's reasonable for that is that COVID-19 deaths are not being recorded as that on death certificates. 

Now, additionally to this, I've spoken to a number of care home managers who have told me that a lack of testing is leading to avoidable outbreaks in care homes, and this at a time when tests will be made available to residents and staff at care homes in England but not in Wales. Looking at all of this, Minister, are you ashamed that you said this morning that providing tests to residents and staff of care homes would not be the best use of resources? 

On the point about non-COVID-19 deaths rising, we need to understand what exactly that is, whether there is an issue in COVID-19 not being recorded—because, actually, the death certificate review is the most accurate review—whether there's a time lag and whether those figures are provided by the Office for National Statistics. It's also the point that I've made both in my statement and previously that some people are refusing to go to a hospital when they have urgent care needs, and I'm really concerned about avoidable harm and avoidable mortality. And rather than jumping to one conclusion, I want to understand what that full picture is.

And on the point you raise about the use of resources, I think it's important to quote people in context and fully so you don't give a misleading misrepresentation of what's actually been said. I've been really clear about the evidence and advice that we currently have, about whether having a general testing programme in care homes for people who aren't symptomatic is the right thing to do. I've also indicated that if the advice changes, then we could or should shift our position, based on the evidence and advice on the best way to use our resources. I think it's unfortunate to use such emotive language and the social media post that has been made, with yourself and your name on it, which contains a direct misrepresentation of what I said, is a work of fiction, and, if someone's going to be ashamed, I think you should look at what's being said in your name because it is simply is not true. 

Thank you, Minister. That brings us to the end of that statement and I will suspend proceedings now for 10 minutes. 

So we'll reconvene Plenary—virtual Plenary. And we'll now move on to the next statement on our agenda, which is a statement by the Business Minister—sorry, by the Minister for Education, on coronavirus. So over to the Minister, Kirsty Williams.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to start today by thanking our teachers, teaching assistants, childcare workers, lecturers, and all the staff involved in education in Wales. I am enormously grateful for the way in which everyone has responded to the challenge of this pandemic. Diolch o galon. You have truly been national heroes.

This is a very challenging time for all of us, but I am proud of what our educational professionals have been able to achieve so far. Hwb, our online learning platform, provides unparalleled access to a wide range of bilingual digital tools and content. And this means that Wales has the perfect platform to keep children and young people safe, but also to keep them learning, during the lockdown. Throughout March 2020, usage of Hwb significantly increased, with more than 2.8 million logins recorded. And our most recent figures show, on average, 150,000 logins a day. We were one of the first countries in the world to secure a national licensing deal with Microsoft. And thanks to that deal, every single learner and teacher in our state schools have access to the latest Microsoft Office tools, including Minecraft Education Edition, on their personal devices at home.

And in another first for Wales, we have deployed Adobe Spark nationally—the first country in the world to do so—meaning that more than 500,000 teachers and learners will have access to Adobe Spark for Education. We have also been working with tech giants such as Google, ensuring that tools like Google Classroom and a range of G Suite for Education tools are available in Welsh. Now, we shouldn’t underestimate this achievement; Welsh is the second smallest language—in terms of speakers—in which G Suite is available.

Closer to home, we were the first UK nation to guarantee free school meal provision until schools reopen, or up until the end of August. With the support of the Welsh Local Government Association, this Government has made available £33 million to help local authorities to continue to provide free school meals, helping to ensure that no child goes hungry.

Last week, I published 'Stay Safe. Stay Learning: continuity of learning policy statement'. This guidance aims to support everyone involved with education to deal with the impact of coronavirus. An important element of this is working with local authorities to support digitally excluded learners, and I hope to be able to make further announcements later this week in this regard. I am confident that we will be able, then, to confirm further plans to recycle existing kit from schools and allocate it to learners who need it, using our EdTech funding.

Of course, one major question for all of us is: when will schools go back to normal? I must say that it has been hugely unhelpful to everyone to have numerous leaks from Westminster saying contradictory things in this regard. That is no way to instill confidence.

In contrast, earlier this week, we published the guiding principles that we will use to determine when and how schools will return to providing education for more pupils. I have made it clear that this will be a phased approach. And whilst doing this, I have given my assurance that we will communicate any directions and decisions well in advance of any required action, ensuring that schools and families are able to plan ahead. 

If I can now turn to further education, colleges across Wales have put in measures to deal with the pandemic within further education settings. In March, they began a phased approach towards remote and digital learning. Learners are being supported to continue their studies and work towards completing assignments and courses, where that is possible, with particular emphasis on vulnerable learners who will need additional support to do so. FE colleges are pivotal to their local economies, and I have provided assurances on funding to Colleges Wales to support the sector and maintain stability for institutions and their learners at this time. Through Universities Wales and the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, we remain in close communication with our universities and I've already confirmed that the moratorium on unconditional offers remains in place in Wales until 1 May. 

Having recently provided HEFCW with a provisional indication of the levels of funding that may be available to the sector this year, I want to move forward at the right time with a package of measures that gives assurance to students, to universities and to the wider higher education community. In the meantime, we have developed resources for year 13 pupils, who are hoping to attend university at the start of the new academic year in the autumn. Those resources are there to help build skills and confidence and to help them connect to universities across Wales. 

I recognise, also, Universities UK's point that all four Governments should continue to work together on matters relating to the HE sector and that the scale of challenge faced by the sector goes way beyond the resources that are available within devolved Governments' budgets. We are working hard to ensure a consistent approach to issues such as visa requirements, assessment contingencies, professional body requirements and admissions for the next academic year. And we will continue to work at pace within the Welsh Government and with the wider sector in Wales on these issues. But we will also continue to work on a four-nation basis on matters such as research and Student Loans Company funding. And I hope to be able to move forward on those matters soon. 

As colleagues will be more than aware, situations can change rapidly during a pandemic. I can assure you, however, that we will continue to work within and across Government and with our partners to provide guidance and advice and to ensure the safety of all of our staff and our children and young people. Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. 

Thank you. Suzy Davies.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you, Minister, for that update and the evidence you gave us in the Children, Young People and Education Committee the other day. Can I just associate myself with your opening remarks about all the people that need thanking, and just to add some of those council officials, as it strikes me that every time there's an announcement from Welsh Government, the heavy lifting seems to me to be done by council officials and employees? I hope you're encouraging all parties involved to record data on their activities, as we're going to need that, not just to scrutinise you and the performance of some of these bodies, but also to spot and take advantage of those good ideas for more agile, efficient and effective ways of working that emerge from this. 

I understand, of course, there's been a strong focus on schools, but occasional learners' lives have been disrupted, like everybody else's, and I was pleased to hear you just say about the financial contribution to further education institutions being maintained. But that's what I'd like to ask you some questions on, if I may. 

We've had your update on the UK qualifications taken in Wales, which will be assessed across the UK—those that have a strong practical element—and I look forward to further updates on that. But, for now, could you tell us how the assessment of apprenticeships and other work-based learning is unfolding, and what the role of employers is in that, bearing in mind they're pretty distracted at the moment? Are Hwb and some of those other online platforms you mentioned now available to college students or apprentices? What feedback have you had from colleges on the use of the £2 million that you've given them for mental health support, and any information on barriers to student engagement that they're experiencing?

If you can give us anything on what's happening with other Welsh Government work-based learning, often based, of course, around essential skills and involving individuals who maybe don't have access to a lot of IT kit—you know, what's happening there. And, if we have time, just your further thoughts on the PCET Bill proceeding in the fifth Assembly. 

Thank you. Minister. 

Thank you, Suzy, for those questions. You're absolutely right: the efforts of local government staff should not go unmentioned. I meet on a weekly basis with the leadership of the WLGA, both the leader and the education lead, and we keep in close contact to ensure that we are working in close harmony together. So, I have assurance about the performance of local authorities and they have an opportunity to be able to feed back from the ground the challenges and the opportunities that present themselves at this difficult time. And I have been overwhelmed by the speed and the agility with which they have been able to respond to this crisis. 

If you can imagine, they were told on a Wednesday afternoon that schools would close for a statutory purpose two days later. But they were all able to ensure that the children of critical workers and vulnerable children could be cared for in re-purposed schools by the Monday. And that just demonstrates the tremendous efforts that have gone on on the ground to respond to the crisis. 

With regard to further education, it's right: we have been in a position to be able to provide some assurance on funding. Although, of course, some of the elements and the requirements of that funding are very difficult to fulfil at this time. But, again, further education colleges have moved swiftly to be able to continue to provide support for students online where that is appropriate. And they have been particularly keen to look at the pastoral care elements of their work, keeping in close contact with those students for whom perhaps studying remotely is a real challenge, and I'm grateful for their efforts in that regard. 

With regard to mental health support, you will be aware that, in the budget allocation for this year, we were able to award £2 million to support further education colleges and mental health initiatives. That money is still available to colleges and they are looking to deploy support for mental health in a variety of ways, although, of course, traditional in-person counselling sessions at colleges are no longer suitable, but they are looking at innovative ways of utilising that resource that is available to them. 

With regard to vocational qualifications, I acknowledge that it has taken some time to be able to provide clarity to vocational learners not in the way that we were able to do so for perhaps our GCSE and A2 level students. This is partly because the awarding bodies are not simply within Wales; we are dealing with awarding bodies that work on a UK-wide basis and we need to work collaboratively with them not to disadvantage any Welsh students.

As I told the committee yesterday, those students who, as part of their apprenticeship or their work-based learning, are undertaking essential skills qualifications, which forms part of the vast, vast majority of apprenticeship programmes, those students will be awarded a grade. For those students who are taking the vocational qualifications with regard to childcare, which are Wales-only qualifications, they too will be awarded a grade.

I know that there has been particular stress around some of our access courses. So, these are usually more mature students, often parents themselves, that are undertaking access to healthcare courses as a precursor to going on to study at a degree level, usually for courses around nursing and midwifery. And I know that that has been a particular challenge, and it has now been agreed that those students do not have to complete all their assignments—they too will be treated the same way, and will be given a grade, allowing them to move on, hopefully, to the courses that they'd hoped to do in September, without any further stress.

Apprenticeships are a challenge, especially where those students have not been able to complete the work-based element of their course, because maybe they have been furloughed or maybe because their company or their employer is no longer operating, and we continue to work through the practicalities of how we can support those students. And you'll be aware that yesterday we talked about those specific students for whom technical competence is a really important part of their course. So, if we think about plumbing and gas fitting—clearly, to be registered as a competent practitioner in that regard, there are practical examinations and assessments that need to be carried out. Again, we're working with CollegesWales to understand—if at any point we are able to relax some of the lockdown measures and some students are able to return to learning, those particular students would probably be one of the first set of students in the further education sector we would want to try and accommodate so that they could complete their qualification, otherwise we may be in a position where they will have to pause that element of that qualification, and we're in early discussions with colleges about how they could attend to those students if their students weren't able to do that until later on, and perhaps into the next academic year.

[Inaudible.]—those replies. In response to the second part of my questions, perhaps you can pick up the points about PCET and access to Hwb that you didn't manage to get to just then.

But turning to HE institutions, universities, of course, are private institutions—it's a position they guard fiercely—but they are significant players in improving our constituents' futures and our economy, so Governments, both of them, have a role to play in preserving that resilience. I wonder if you could tell us whether you believe that universities in Wales are disproportionately exposed to some of the serious financial difficulties that Universities UK have spoken of as a result of the effects of the virus—you'll remember that the question of some of our universities over commitments on finances has come to this Chamber previously, so it is an issue of serious concern—and, on the back of that, whether you've had any detail from them about the steps that they are taking to make sure that they're taking advantage of all the financial support schemes that both Governments are offering, such as furlough, but there may be other examples as well.

Protecting our research basis—that's supremely important during this period, particularly retaining those best brains from around the world and to help capitalise on the agility and innovative ideas that have fallen out of this crisis, if you like. So, what can you tell us about the protection being offered to quality research, and again whether we are disproportionately exposed on the question of visas?

And then, finally, because of the likely loss of thousands of overseas students and deferment by domestic students, there's going to be fierce competition for those who want to begin courses in the autumn, as student income, of course, is critical to the viability of courses, departments and even institutions. I heard what you said on the control of unconditional offers that expires in a couple of days, but what other steps are necessary to ensure fair play for all institutions, and are they, like the banks, too important to fail?  

Sorry, forgive me, Suzy. With regard to Hwb, that is being rolled out to FE learners. I think that process is near complete, and so those resources are available for those learners.

With regard to the PCET Bill, as you've just outlined, Suzy, the contribution of both FE and HE and work-based learning to the future of the Welsh economy as we emerge from this—not just a public health emergency but an economic emergency—is going to be more important then ever and, therefore, reforms in that sector, I think, are more important than ever. You'll be aware that the Bill was submitted to the Presiding Office prior to the outbreak of the pandemic, and it was my intention for that to come to the committee at the start of this term. Those processes, of course, are ongoing. That Bill is ready to be scrutinised, and I will continue to discuss with the Commission about the opportunities that may be available as the Assembly finds new and innovative ways of carrying on its work in this crisis to be able to bring that Bill forward. I certainly am ready to do so. There may be practical considerations that, perhaps, we will have to contend with.

With regard to the HE sector, you will be aware of the work of Universities UK that has tried to quantify the effects of the crisis on the HE sector. Some of those are immediate in terms of loss of income in the here and now, whether that be from conferences, catering, accommodation, but, of course, as we look to the start of the new academic year, those impacts could be even greater. I think it is fair to say that we are looking at a significant drop in overseas students as well as potentially disruption to the UK market if some students decide to defer for a year and not choose to go to university at this point, although we have to say there's no evidence of that at this point. In fact, quite to the contrary: anecdotal evidence suggests that there are a lot of 18-year-olds who are desperate to get away in September at the start of the academic year, and perhaps are even more determined to fly the nest having experienced this period of lockdown than they were previously. But they are real questions that we're grappling with.

I'm very pleased that universities have abided by the moratorium on converting conditional offers to offers that do not have any conditions. I'm grateful for their co-operation in that regard. But that moratorium, as you know, will come to an end, and we're discussing, on a UK-wide basis, the introduction—certainly, on an England and Wales basis—of temporary student number controls. This is not something that usually happens in the Welsh or the English systems. They do have controls on numbers in Scotland because of the different ways in which they finance their system, but in England and Wales we don't have number controls. But as you'll have known from the Universities UK paper, this is a suggestion by the sector itself that we introduce student number controls for the new academic year, which would allow institutions to recruit their projected numbers plus 5 per cent, and I hope that we're able to make an announcement in Wales shortly on student number controls, which will add additional stability for the start of the new academic year.

Research funding is absolutely critical and is particularly at risk because this is often match funded by the fees brought to the sector by international students, and the future and the scale of research funding continues to be a subject that is discussed on a four-nation basis because the scales—. First of all, many elements of research and innovation funding for the sector is not a devolved matter and the scale of some of the interventions that we're looking at really needs to be done on a four-nation basis. I had further discussions with my Westminster counterpart in that regard today and we—myself, the Northern Irish Minister and the Scottish Minister—keep urging the Westminster Government to be able to find new moneys from the Treasury to be able to support the HE sector at this time. But just like the finance Minister in Wales is being asked by all parties for additional resources, I suspect the same is true of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and we are supporting Gavin Williamson and Michelle Donelan in their calls for the Treasury and their case to the Treasury to support the sector. 

Thank you. If we were in the Chamber, I would have been staring very hard at the Minister then. We are trying to have shorter answers to questions, and I was staring hard at you, but, of course, you can't see me doing that. So, can we just think about shorter answers, please? Siân Gwenllian.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank all of the staff in our educational establishments, to parents, pupils and students for responding so responsibly to this crisis and for being so flexible in dealing with a new way of learning and teaching.

One of the greatest challenges is to try and ensure that no child suffers as a result of this crisis, and it is a cause of concern for me how few children in the vulnerable category are attending schools: only some 600 across Wales. So, I would like to know, therefore, more about the national guidance in place in order to ensure that there is regular contact with this particular cohort of children.

I would also like to know what arrangements you are putting in place, or what arrangements do you expect to be out in place, in order to ensure that every child maintains contact with his or her school, and what arrangements are in place to ensure that every child can continue to learn? Without clear guidance, my concern is that the attainment gap is widening quickly, leaving thousands of children at a huge disadvantage.

The digital divide is also leaving children behind, for reasons of poverty or geography, or a combination of both. Many thousands of children have no way of accessing online learning. They don't have an appropriate device, and they have no connection to broadband, or, again, it can be a combination of both of those things. Isn't it scandalous that it has taken a crisis for this to be given due attention, and haven't the efforts of your Government to ensure that every child has an appropriate device been very paltry to date? May I ask one more thing in this section? Has holding a live video-conference between pupils and teachers now been banned?

The number of vulnerable children who are eligible to attend our hubs has been low, but I am pleased to report that since the end of what would have been the traditional Easter recess, we have seen an increase in those numbers, and we will continue to work across Government and with our local authorities to ensure that all parents are aware of the support that is available to them. We have received assurances from local authorities that those children who have a social worker have been risk-assessed, and contact is being kept with those children, either by their social worker or indeed by their teachers. We do know that some children are vulnerable but they don't have a social worker, or they don't have a statement for special educational needs, and we know that schools in many areas have been very diligent in doing welfare checks on children whom they have concerns about, and we will continue to work with local authorities to ensure that the right children are receiving a service in the right way. But let's be clear: we have told parents consistently that the safest place for their child is at home, and it should not be, then, a surprise to us when parents have taken that advice to heart and have kept their children at home.

The continuity of learning plan will continue to adapt. We published the policy statement last week. The next stage of that work is to be able to develop and get agreement across Wales on what a reasonable expectation should be of individual headteachers and teachers in this new form of education in Wales, and we will indeed want to be able to track that those expectations that we have are actually happening on the ground.

With regard to the digital divide, I do not regard it as paltry to be the only part of the United Kingdom that has made available Microsoft Office to all its pupils and students. We are the first in the world, as I said, to make available Adobe software to all students. I am acutely aware, however, that there will be some students who do not have the hardware or the connectivity at home to avail themselves of our Hwb platform, but, as I said, over 150,000 children a day are logging into that platform. That's why, as we discussed earlier this week, Siân, and as I referenced in my statement, I'll be making a statement tomorrow on how we will use Welsh Government investment to provide additional hardware to students who do not have it at the moment, and MiFi connections to allow them to have the data connections that they will need to be able to utilise other platforms going forward. And that will be to all children—not to a selected group of children, which appears to be the case across the border, where the emphasis is on those children just taking exam classes. But we'll need to work with our local authorities and our teachers to identify those families that are in need of that assistance. It's no mean feat, but we are doing that work.

With regard to online live streaming of classes, at this stage, we are recommending that schools do not do that, and we have recommended at this stage they do not do that for very good child protection and safeguarding issues—both for the children themselves and for the staff. Hwb allows teachers to record their lessons and for students to be able to download them at a time that is convenient to those children. That is because, as you can imagine, we have potentially some very young children, and teachers working from their home environments, where perhaps it would be inappropriate for children to be seeing teachers in their home environments. I have to say I have seen more of some of my colleagues' bedrooms than I would have hoped to during this process of endless Zoom and Skype meetings—that's not really appropriate in an educational setting.

So, we are taking a very risk-averse stance at this moment, while we evaluate what is safe and what is the appropriate thing to do in these new, challenging circumstances. So, we may well change that advice, but, at the moment, live streaming of lessons from teachers in their homes into children's homes is not recommended—also recognising that teachers may see something on that screen that could be misunderstood, but would have a professional duty to report what they had seen. So, these are not easy things as simply saying we can allow teachers to stream live lessons in real time. We will reflect on this, we will continue to have discussions with educational practitioners and the unions, and that policy may well evolve over time, but, at this moment, we do not recommend it.

Thank you very much for providing clarity on that final point. May I ask you about the health condition arising in some children as a rare response, but a very dangerous response, that is suspected to be related to coronavirus? Can you confirm whether there have been any cases in Wales, and, if there have been, or if any do emerge, what would the implications of that be on your plans to reopen schools? Just a few questions to close about testing educational workers: yesterday, it emerged that only 15 teachers across Wales have been tested for COVID. Now, education workers are supposed to have been included in the 'critical employment' category and should be prioritised for testing, therefore. But do you agree with me that the public has lost faith in the Government's testing strategy? And, as you plan for this next phase, how will you ensure that teachers and educational professionals will be tested, and will you guarantee that every education worker and worker in childcare who shows symptoms of COVID will be able to access a test?

Certainly. The information I have from the chief medical officer is that we have one case of Kawasaki disease in a child in Wales. It is important to recognise that this significant inflammatory but very serious condition is incredibly rare, but we do need to take that into consideration. That's why advice has been given to all 111 call handlers that, if a parent is telephoning about a child—. The information that they have is that they should consider whether a child is showing symptoms of Kawasaki disease.

The truth is we are still learning a lot about this virus, and we still don't have a full picture as to the extent to which the virus affects children and young people. So, this week, we have seen the worrying development of Kawasaki disease in a very small number of children. At the same, Members will have seen the advice from Switzerland today that children under 10 can now visit their grandparents, because, in the eyes of the Swiss Government, children under 10 do not present an epidemiological risk. Cases, papers, out of France suggest that high school children are vectors for the disease, but some papers out of China say something different. We still have a lot to learn about how the disease affects children and the role of children in transmitting the disease, and, of course, that will have to be at the forefront of our thinking as we think about what the next stage of education will look like.

As I told the committee yesterday, the figures that I have from Public Health Wales are that 15 teachers have been tested, two of which were positive. But I would repeat again—as I did yesterday and as I have done on my social media channels—any teacher showing symptoms of the disease, or indeed a member of their family showing symptoms of the disease, is entitled to be tested, should be tested, and should ask for a test. 

Thank you, Minister, for all the work that you and your officials are doing at this time. Headteachers, teaching staff and of course parents and young people have been able to adapt amazingly during this time. I know that many teachers and staff are going above and beyond to make sure their pupils continue to learn and are staying safe, and this can't be underestimated. 

When we're finally able to ease pupils back safely to school, clear and reassuring communication will be crucial. Parents and staff must be reassured of their safety, and everyone must understand the reasoning behind why some children may return before others. You've mentioned in your statement that communication is key to transition as smoothly as possible. What procedures will be put in place to ensure that those young people who find school a refuge, and the teaching workforce who have been through so much, will be supported in the weeks and months ahead, following their return to school?

Thank you, Jayne. You'll be aware that yesterday I published the five principles that would aid my thinking with regard to what the next phase of education in Wales will look like during this pandemic, recognising that over 500 schools and settings are open every day already. 

The first of those principles is the safety, the mental, emotional and physical well-being of the staff in those schools, and the children and young people who attend them, and that is the overriding priority. But you're right: principle No. 3 talked about having the confidence of parents and staff and students, and that's about sharing with them the evidence on which we are taking these decisions, giving them information, and also allowing time for them to plan so that they can make the necessary arrangements and adjustments.

And, of course, going back into school, we will have to recognise, for staff and students alike, that there will have to be a period of readjustment, where we really focus on the mental health and well-being of those children before we can begin to get them back into learning. What we know about good pedagogy is that getting the well-being right is the first step to ensuring that children can learn, and we will need to reflect that when students begin to return to school.

Thank you. Mohammad Asghar. Sorry, we're not hearing Mohammad Asghar. Just a moment. Could somebody assist, please? No. Can I—? I'll return—. Can somebody assist with Mr Asghar's mike, and I will come back to him? Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I have a question on supply teachers, who do crucial work in schools the length and breadth of Wales, but many of them have found themselves falling between many stools at the moment, as the Minister is aware, and can't access support, having lost their employment during this period.

So, may I ask the Minister to publish clear guidance, so that there is no ambiguity in this area, so that we know exactly whose responsibility it is to provide support to supply teachers, and that schools and supply teacher agencies and local authorities know exactly what responsibilities they have and what scope exists for them to ensure that these valuable supply teachers are supported through this period?

Thank you. I published an open letter to the supply teaching workforce on 1 April, and the content of that letter is available on the Welsh Government website. Rhun is absolutely right: our supply teaching workforce is an important part of the education family, and our advice to local authorities and individual schools is clear—if they are struggling to staff their hubs at this time, I know that supply teachers stand ready, willing and able to help in that effort to care for our critical workers' children and our vulnerable children. But, whilst education policy is devolved to Wales, employment law is not.

With regard to—. We have provided advice to local authorities: where a teacher is in a long-term supply contract, then the local authorities are not required to stick to that, but our advice is that they should. With regard to the supply agencies that are on our national framework, the National Procurement Service for Wales, at my request, has contacted all the agencies on that framework to provide advice to them on the ability of that agency to furlough those workers. If workers are being paid on a pay-as-you-earn scheme, they are entitled to be part of the UK Government furloughing scheme. We have told those agencies that they should do that, and the vast majority of those agencies have agreed to do so.

We have also—. NPS has also issued Cabinet Office procurement advice to both agencies and to local authorities, which sets out the expectations of all of those organisations as to what they should do and how they should do it. I am aware that there have been ongoing concerns, and, because of the very complex nature of some of the supply employment issues, where somebody is not employed by a local authority or somebody is not working for one of our approved framework agencies, there may be gaps. But, again, I would say that, in the first instance, all supply teachers should get in contact with their employer to discuss the situation as they find it.

[Inaudible.]—schools in Wales should close in response to COVID-19, with the exception of making provision for children who are vulnerable or whose parents are critical to the COVID-19 response. You said that vulnerable children include those with care and support plans and statements of special educational needs, and I commend all the staff on the rotas for this, including my youngest son.

How do you respond, therefore, to the probation officer living in Wrexham who contacted me this morning, whose autistic son meets the criteria but has not been allowed any educational provision since the start of the crisis because, quote, 'The headteacher's refusing to open special provision for disabled children'? Or the Flintshire mother who contacted me last night, whose daughter has severe autism, severe learning disability and ADHD and also meets the criteria, who told me that 'even though we're in our sixth week of lockdown, there's still been no news on when a hub is opening'?

We are urging all local authorities to ensure that they have specialist provision available, and the vast, vast majority of them do. We are very clear that there should be specialist provision in place to meet the needs of parents, and that has been successfully done in many areas. But also, let us be clear that, even where a child has a statement of special educational needs and a care and support plan, it may be parental choice for their children not to attend a setting. And, because we're working out of hubs, sometimes that hub model is not appropriate for a child, because they would be faced with, perhaps, a rota of teachers in an unfamiliar setting, which, actually, could be detrimental to their well-being. But the expectation is for all local authorities to provide specialist provision. What I would say, Mark, is, if you have those cases, then you should pass them on to me and I will raise them with the county councils and the LEAs involved.

Minister, I was delighted to hear that Wales was the first nation in the UK to announce that we will be providing free school meals to eligible pupils throughout the summer, by providing that £33 million to our local authorities, and that local authorities will have the flexibility to deliver the roughly £20 per child per week in the way that works best locally. And you've laid out three possibilities, namely vouchers paid to the families, a transfer of funds to the bank accounts through BACS accounts, or the actual, physical delivery of food to the families of eligible pupils. Could I ask, Minister, whether you recognise the additional value of schools keeping in touch with some pupils through the physical delivery of food, not only for the nutritional value, of course, but because some pupils and some families in particular will benefit from the continued contact, albeit in a very different context, with the very people who are now delivering to some of our most vulnerable families and children, namely the headteachers, the teaching staff, and the school staff of some of our schools who have now taken on this role? And would she join me in thanking those members of school staff who've agreed to do this? These see it as an extension of their normal pastoral role. This crisis has brought out the very best in many of us, and some of the hidden heroes are the school staff and the headteachers who are striving to help those families who need it most right now most of all. They deserve our praise and our thanks.

Thank you, Huw, and I would associate myself with those comments. We were able to make an additional £7 million available to local authorities to ensure that free school meal children were supported over the Easter holidays, and we have made a further £33 million available to take us through either to when schools open or to the start of the new academic year. It is £19.50, which is above the amount that is available in the jurisdiction right next to us.

You're right: local authorities are taking a number of approaches. In some local authorities, they have more than one approach, because they are trying to meet the needs of individual families, so we want to provide flexibility to local authorities to do what's best for the population that they are serving. For some, that is a supermarket voucher, but as I was reminded and as I am very familiar with where I live, that might not be applicable and, therefore, a BACS payment to families is much more helpful and useful. But it is a legitimate choice for local authorities to provide food parcels or a food delivery, and that does provide an important point of contact where they can check in with that child and with that family to see how things are going.

What is very interesting, and what we have already learnt, is that over half the local authorities currently report that take-up of FSM is either equal to or is actually greater than they would usually do during school time, because, of course, during school time, you physically have to be in the school to obtain the food. The fact that we are moving to a different system means that, actually, as I said, half of local authorities have seen take-up either at the expected level or are actually providing more support to more children.

Minister, I wanted to ask about the higher education sector, please. The main emphasis has been on ensuring continuation of education in our school sector, particularly the need to prioritise what year 12 students will do for A-levels, but can I ask you what consideration has been given in forward planning for the future to ensuring that we reduce as much as possible the interruption to work-based learning, apprenticeships and colleges?

And, in turning to mental health support, can you please ensure that further education will have the same access to mental health support services in order to deal with the impact of the current crisis, just as schools have?

Finally, what is your assessment of the broader impact of coronavirus on the number of HE students, and what will the implications of that be in the context of the vulnerable financial position of Welsh universities in the year to come?

As I said earlier, we've made £2 million available to the FE sector to support mental health initiatives for students. Clearly, they're having to deliver those in different ways than they had originally planned, but that money is safe and secure, and is available for them to use.

With regard to planning for what the next phase of education looks like, then I can assure you that we have a representative of ColegauCymru that is part of the Welsh Government's working group and we have a college principal that is a part of that group also, because, clearly, what we advise schools to do will be directly applicable to FE colleges and, in some ways, applicable to HE as well. So, we're keeping in close touch with HE with regard to that work.

Can I state that, for vulnerable students in the FE sector, we are maintaining all education maintenance allowance payments at this time? Even though there is an attendance element to receiving that money, clearly that is not appropriate, but we do not want to denude students of those precious financial resources and those payments, as well as Assembly learning grants, which will continue to be paid. For HE students, I know that they are concerned that, having left university, perhaps, and returned to their home address, that may affect their summer student loan payment, because there is a reduced rate for those students that live at home. That will not happen. They will retain access to their full entitlement regardless of whether they have stayed at their university or they have returned.

As I said earlier to Suzy Davies, the potential impact on the HE sector is enormous. Our immediate priority is to be able to help with immediate cash-flow difficulties, and we are doing that by keeping in close connection with HEFCW and the sector. We're looking then to bring as much stability as possible for the new start to the new academic year, and clearly there will need to be ongoing support over the next couple of academic years, potentially, because of the impact—primarily because of a loss of income from overseas students, but that is not the only challenge facing the sector at present.

I will now try and call again Mohammad Asghar. Mohammad, if you can hear us.

Deputy Presiding Officer, can you hear me?

Yes, that's fine, thank you. If you'd like to ask your question to the Minister.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you, Minister, for your statement. I would like to ask about the effect of lockdown on the provision of skills training in the further education sector. Qualifications Wales has announced that steps will be taken to award vocational qualifications this summer for learners impacted by the virus emergency. Could the Minister give me more details about the process and timescales in delivering these calculated results in the best interests of apprentices and those undertaking traineeships in Wales?

Following on from this point, could you provide some indications of when face-to-face instruction could be phased in, and when we can expect the reintroduction of assessments of vocational competence, especially in key skill sectors? Some further education staff have seen an increased workload due to learners needing extra mental health support and guidance during this difficult time. Minister, maintaining the same number of staff is essential to supporting learners to continue their studies and keep them engaged, though staff availability and staff safety are also very crucial at this crucial time.

Can I ask you to wind up, please? I know you've had difficulty getting in. Wind up, please.

Will you please, Minister, agree to address the next funding round, as failure to do so would mean a waste of funded activity that has already taken place with a consequential damaging effect on the skills gap in Wales?

Deputy Presiding Officer, I think I have, in previous answers to colleagues this afternoon, addressed some of the points that Mr Asghar has raised. I would just repeat: with regard to qualifications, Qualifications Wales are very clear on their website about how they will award vocational qualifications. Where a calculated grade is possible, that will happen. Where calculation is not possible, consideration should be given to adapting existing assessments, and that too will happen. But for some—and Mr Asghar talked about professional competencies—that may have to be delayed, but we are working with the sector very closely to ascertain ways around this. It is true to say that it may not be possible for some of those technical assessments to be carried out in the current conditions, but we will keep that under review.

As I said earlier, we have given assurance to colleges around the nature of their funding going forward, and we have made £2 million available to support mental health initiatives in FE. I would like to commend the sector for the excellent work that they have been doing keeping in touch with their learners, especially their most vulnerable learners. They have been very good at doing so.

Thank you very much, Minister.

Item 5 on our agenda this afternoon is a statement by the Minister for Housing and Local Government on coronavirus, so I call on the Minister for Housing and Local Government, Julie James.

Apologies, Deputy Presiding Officer, I couldn't get my microphone to unmute. I hope it's working now.

The coronavirus pandemic is impacting all our lives. An enormous amount of work has taken place across the Welsh Government and within our public services in a very short space of time to respond to the pandemic. My aim this afternoon is to provide Members with an account of the most recent and significant developments in the housing and local government portfolio.

Firstly, I would like to express my heartfelt thanks to the Welsh Local Government Association and to local authorities across Wales who have worked so hard and been so responsive in mobilising to address the situation. Local government leaders raised with me at the outset the need to support local authorities’ cash flow so there would be no delay to urgent decisions and spending. I am therefore very pleased that we were able to bring forward the May and June settlement payments into April to support them. This provided an advance of £526 million across local government. I am also considering work carried out by the WLGA quantifying both the additional costs and the loss of income they will experience as a result of the pandemic. We provided funding to local authorities so they can apply the rates relief and issue the business support grants that were announced at the end of March. They have worked extremely hard to distribute these so efficiently—a huge thank you to them for all of that.

A single emergency funding stream for local authorities has been established to help meet the pressures arising from COVID-19. Welsh Government made £30 million available for this in the first instance. This included the provision of up to £7 million to urgently provide financial assistance to families of pupils who rely on free school meals but were unable to receive them due to school closures. It also included £10 million to ensure that, with their third sector partners, local authorities can put in place urgent and necessary arrangements to protect rough-sleepers. This has since been enhanced to provide a further £40 million to support social care delivery and a further £33 million to extend free school meal provision. 

The COVID-19 pandemic has brought a considerable challenge to recycling, waste collection and processing in Wales. I am very proud that, during this difficult time, our local authorities have continued to operate their waste and recycling services with the vast majority only making minor temporary changes. This is a reflection of our work over the last 20 years to develop high-quality resilient collection regimes. We have a goal for a resilient Wales and we have an opportunity to learn lessons here and work to support greater resilience in the future.

One of our key priorities in Government has always been working to prevent and end homelessness in all its forms. The vulnerability of those sleeping rough has rightly needed to be a focus for action during this emergency. I want to extend my thanks to local authorities’ housing and homelessness teams, together with Community Housing Cymru, Cymorth Cymru, registered social landlords and other third sector partners who have been focusing on helping people into accommodation. This means that they have been able to self-isolate, have access to hand washing and hygiene facilities, and adhere to social distancing rules. 

I have been heartened by the collaborative and innovative practice that is going on despite the challenging environment people are working in. I was clear from the outset that this wasn’t simply about placing people in accommodation and leaving them to fend for themselves. Accommodation has to come with the wraparound support to enable people to sustain it. We introduced clear guidance on the approach that local authorities should take and provided an additional £10 million to enable them to enact it.

In the last few weeks, 500 people have been supported into accommodation, and rough-sleeper numbers are in single digits in every local authority in Wales. Local authorities and their partners continue to support those few people who are still sleeping rough. We have also been working to see how our Housing First projects may be able to assist these individuals.

No-one should be left without accommodation and support during this emergency. This includes those with no recourse to public funds and those leaving institutions, such as prisons. We are working very closely with Her Majesty's Prison and Probation Service, local authorities and health colleagues to ensure both the potential early-release prisoners and standard release prisoners are supported into accommodation.

My officials have been working directly with a number of local authorities to help secure more accommodation. We are also working closely with local authorities and wider stakeholders to consider the exit strategy from this current emergency. The work recently done by the homelessness action group provides us with a blueprint on how to end homelessness in Wales, and this will be vital in informing the approach to our exit strategy. Let me be clear: we cannot go back. We have an opportunity to engage with individuals who have never been in services before. The assistance being offered now can provide the foundation to rebuild lives once this crisis ends.

While there has rightly been a focused effort in these areas, my officials are heavily engaged across a range of issues. For example, we have already taken action to ensure that tenants experiencing financial hardship as a result of COVID-19 cannot be evicted. I would like to extend my thanks to all landlords and letting agents for taking a pragmatic and supportive approach to helping tenants through this crisis. We recognise that there is still much to do to prevent an increase in evictions, and welcome the ongoing collaborative work across the social and private sectors to ensure that evictions really are the last resort.

We have worked with our construction partners and the association representing building supply merchants to establish what outlets are open, what they can supply and to whom. This is critical in terms of allowing agencies such as Care and Repair to continue their invaluable work. We have acted quickly to make changes to our planning and building control systems so that local authorities and the NHS can provide additional healthcare capacity. This has allowed the construction of the Nightingale hospitals across Wales at great speed. 

I would also like to extend my thanks to the fire and rescue services, who have proved to be remarkably resilient during this pandemic. Absence levels due to COVID-19 are no more than 4 per cent, and the service has maintained full operational capability across Wales. The Deputy Minister wrote to all fire and rescue service staff urging them to lend support to the NHS where possible, and the response has been overwhelming. Over 450 staff have volunteered to drive ambulances and are available for deployment as necessary. Others have assisted in setting up temporary mortuaries and delivering vital supplies. We have also set up five of the service's mass decontamination units at hospitals across Wales, where they serve as temporary triage facilities for suspected COVID-19 patients. 

It is, though, very disappointing to see widespread outbreaks of deliberately set grass fires. Even in a normal year this is highly irresponsible. It devastates the environment and puts communities in genuine fear. This year it is doubly so. Our firefighters and police officers have far better things to do during the outbreak than responding to grass fires. The smoke such fires causes is also a serious health hazard for many of those in the shielded group and for COVID-19 sufferers themselves. I'm sure all Members would join me in strongly condemning this senseless behaviour.

And finally, the cross-Government group on vulnerable people has been focusing on practical support for those extremely vulnerable people who have been asked to undertake shielding for 12 weeks. This includes food and medical supplies, transport, emotional and social support such as advice lines, telephone befriending and technology. Data on those who have been advised to shield has now been shared with all supermarkets in Wales, and a pilot scheme to provide additional capacity for the delivery of medicines from community pharmacies was launched last week.

The steps that we are taking to respond to the COVID-19 pandemic will save lives. However, sadly, as has already been said, people will lose loved ones as a result of this disease. The death of a family member or friend is a very distressing event, and we have amended our regulations to clarify the arrangements for funerals at crematoriums. These are very difficult times, requiring rapid and flexible responses from everyone in Government and in our public services. Welsh Government will continue to provide leadership and support as we deal with this crisis, and thank all our partners for working with us. I'm very clear that when normality begins to return, these collaborations will provide clear lessons and a deal of good practice that we can and should adopt, going forward. Diolch.  

Can I thank the Minister for her statement and also for the very open approach she's taken to scrutiny and arranging meetings with spokespeople, which I found very valuable? I think the Government is to be congratulated for moving quickly on the rough-sleeper issue, and there's no doubt that a lot of resources and technical expertise, I think, from the Welsh Government has gone in to help those local authorities. I wonder if any of them are still struggling a bit with the challenge and the sustainability of their approaches, and can you just tell us how you are supporting those that are perhaps finding it a bit more difficult than others? 

And whilst single figures in Cardiff, Swansea, Newport is a genuine achievement, obviously we've got 22 local authorities, and if there were five rough-sleepers in each, we'd have about 100 rough-sleepers still, compared to the annual estimate of 340 to 350 that we had. So, do you have any idea of what the global figure is? I think that would be helpful. And, as we move on, how confident are you that we have the next phase, because much of this is enhanced emergency accommodation?

I know much more fundamental approaches have been taken around support, but a lot of these people are not in the accommodation they will need to be in the time ahead, in the months and years to come. So, what are we doing to ensure that this cohort of rough-sleepers who have now been brought into accommodation do not slip back onto the streets? And do we have any idea of people who are presenting as homeless at the moment because of the difficulties that COVID is presenting? Many people in fairly fragile accommodation are finding that friends don't want to accommodate them and sofa surfing is more difficult, and, therefore, it slips into the more extreme form of homelessness and rough-sleeping.

And—

I will need to ask you to draw your first question to an end.

That's my first question. Thank you, Llywydd. 

Minister.

Thank you, David. Yes, it has been a serious challenge to get people in off the streets, and I really do have an enormous amount of respect for the numbers of people working across Wales to get that to happen so quickly. There is still an ongoing challenge, and we know that most local authorities are working at close to, or at capacity in all areas. I don't have a global figure as such, but I can tell you that it's nil in most authorities, and in low single figures in the main cities. It changes on a daily basis as people present, so it's very difficult to pinpoint a point in time and say, 'There are seven' or whatever, but it's very low. But, obviously, we have had to accommodate a large number of people who would have otherwise been hidden homeless. You'll remember we were running a campaign before this happened to get people to identify as homeless if they were sofa surfing or sleeping in spare rooms, and so on, and, of course, people have been reluctant to keep those arrangements going, and so we've had a lot more people to get into accommodation. That has been done, and I'm grateful to all of our partners across Wales who've worked so very hard to do that. 

We also have an increased problem where the Home Office has been using limited accommodation capacity to house asylum seekers, and that's placing a strain on the system, and we've had to work very hard to make sure that we're talking to each other properly to ensure that we're not both trying to secure the same accommodation at the same time in some areas, and we have had those conversations. But there's no doubt that puts an increased strain on the system. 

And then, the last thing we're dealing with at the moment is the need to accommodate prisoners who are being released. So, we have the normal prison releases. Just to be clear, those are still ongoing; if you've come to the end of your time, you've served your time, you get released regardless. No prisoners who are up for early release would have the virus, but we do have occasions where a prisoner who's just up for release in the normal course of that might be showing symptoms. There is a pathway now in place to ensure that those prisoners are properly accommodated, properly transported, with all of the safety for both the released prisoner and the staff dealing with them, and the accommodation that they're returning to, in place. I'm very grateful to the partners who've worked with us so very hard to get those things catered for in the system as well. 

And, secondly, I'd like to know what advice and assistance is being given to allow builders, especially SMEs, to operate with appropriate social distancing, so that vital repairs and maintenance in particular can be undertaken? This is very important to sustain people at home, and much vital building has obviously been put on hold.

And what measures are in place to ensure fire safety in high-rise buildings now that people are staying at home nearly all day, and, therefore, just because of the number of hours they are there, are at more risk? The Minister will know that the more tests that are being done on cladding materials, the more problems that seem to be arising. So, what are we doing to ensure the health and well-being of those residents of tower blocks and the like?

Thank you, David, for those. We've kept the construction industry going for essential work, and we've kept the care and repair system going, for example. They're receiving around 270 rapid adaptation referrals a week at the moment—urgent jobs to support hospital discharges, or crucial prevention to prevent somebody being admitted where there's no need. I mentioned the adaptation of the Nightingale hospitals, which has obviously been kept going. Actually, it's not the construction bit of that that's been a problem; it's keeping the builders' merchants open so that people can maintain adequate supplies, and we've had conversations with builders' merchants around how that works. 

You'll know that going shopping in your local builders' merchant isn't one of the main reasons that you should leave home at the moment. But, obviously, if you're going there as part of a trade, doing essential work—construction work and repairs—then it has been very helpful to us that they've stayed open. When we start to look at the—well, it's a new term for the word 'easement', which pains me as a lawyer—easement of the restrictions, we will be looking to see if we can get more construction up and running as fast as possible.

As to support to the SME system, because the housing market is, not surprisingly, not terribly buoyant at the moment, we will be looking to see if we can introduce regulations to relax the DQR—the social housing standard rules—in order to be able to buy off-plan from SME builders, so that we can increase the supply that way. This has been done before; it was done after the 2008 crisis. Actually, the building standards in Wales are much higher now, so the relaxation isn't as great, but we are looking to support the sector in that way. And, of course, it has the added benefit of getting more people out of temporary accommodation that may be unsuitable. So, we're doing a number of things to support SME builders and to keep the essential repairs going.

And the last thing is that we're encouraging all registered social landlords and councils across Wales to work on their voids, to make sure that they are going as fast as possible to get all available social housing back into use as soon as humanly possible, so that we can move people on from what might be otherwise temporary accommodation into that permanent, secure accommodation. And I'm certainly determined that people are not going to go back out of that onto the street.

I also thank you, Minister, for how constructive you're being and welcoming of scrutiny in this crisis. I'd like to associate myself with what David Melding said about homelessness. I think this crisis is showing that many of the daily injustices that we are so used to aren't inevitable. So, on the point that you just made at the end of answering David Melding, could you confirm that the Welsh Government will be able to commit to doing all it can to make sure that anyone who's been given accommodation to be saved from homelessness during this crisis won't be going back to living on the streets at the end of the crisis?

And the other issue I'd like to raise in relation to housing is support for tenants. From the beginning of the lockdown, mortgages were frozen but rents were not. So, could you tell us what support you're putting in place to help tenants who are really struggling with rent arrears?

And finally on housing, we know that there are groups of people for whom staying at home will increase risk instead of diminishing it. Looking particularly at children who are at risk of abuse, and women and men who are at risk of domestic violence, what work can be done by local authorities, working with the police, with the third sector, to ensure that people can access support and refuge at a time when reporting some of this on the phone could well be overheard by the perpetrator?

Certainly. So, on the rough-sleeping point, you just heard me saying we're very determined that we will not have people returning to the streets. It may be that there are one or two that we won't be able to prevent, and obviously we're not in a position of preventing people from doing that, but we're working very hard to make sure that everybody has the wraparound services that they need to be able to sustain their accommodation and that we can move them rapidly into suitable accommodation. But there's no doubt there will be a draw for some people with serious substance misuse problems, and so on, back to the streets if we can't do that, but we're very determined to do it.

I am very concerned about the group of people who have no recourse to public funds. We've been lobbying the UK Government extensively that those people should not be released back onto the street as soon as the public health emergency is over. And we continue to lobby on that basis. I would appreciate anyone, any Member, who wants to help us with that doing so as well. I do think it's very important that that doesn't happen.

In terms of tenancy support, you can't be evicted at the moment because there's a practice direction in place with the courts, so no eviction proceedings are proceeding at this point in time. So, you're protected at the moment. We are giving serious thought to extending the three-months provision in the emergency regulations to six, and I'm hoping to be able to do that shortly. We are lobbying the UK Government about what will happen if the lockdown continues past the end of May, because you are absolutely right that it's a holiday; it's not a removal of the need to pay your rent. And once people have got more than two months in arrears, we know that they will really struggle to catch back up again. In the social sector in Wales, we've been working hard with our councils and RSLs to make sure we have pre-action protocols in place that force the RSLs and councils—although the word 'force' is not necessary, as they want to do this as well, but they will have to do it—to enter into negotiations with the tenant around repayments and write-off where that's necessary in certain circumstances. Unfortunately, we don't have that power in the private rented sector. We are encouraging all our landlords, with whom we have reasonable working relationships, and their representative bodies, with whom we have reasonable working relationships—all of them; there is no problem with any of them—to enter into that pre-action protocol as well so that we can make sure that that mediation has happened. And we will be lobbying the Ministry of Justice to see if we can make it a practice direction that such a pre-action protocol would have to have been entered into before you could start eviction proceedings for rent arrears. So, we're working on that as well.

The last point you were making was fleeing domestic violence and increased risk of abuse, and I think David Melding, to be fair, raised that as well, and I didn't cover it. That's why we're having people presenting on the streets now daily—that's why the figure is moving. We are trying to publicise the dial 999 and then push 55, which will indicate immediately that you're not in a position to speak and will get help out to you. So, if we can get that information out as far as possible, that's good.

Jane Hutt, my colleague, will be running again the Don't be a Bystander campaign to make sure that people recognise it in their neighbours and don't stand by, and report it themselves. And we also welcome any ideas from any Member or any member of the public that would help us identify other ways of getting to people who are at risk so that we can get the assistance they need to them.

Thank you for that, Minister. Turning to local government, local authorities have reported that it's difficult for them to plan how they're going to be distributing PPE because they don't know in advance how much they're going to be getting, so could you tell us when the Welsh Government will be in a position to tell them in advance how much stock they'll be able to distribute to care homes and so on?

And, on a related point, local authorities are reporting substantial losses of income as a result of this unprecedented crisis. Could you—and I know that you did refer to this in your statement—assure those leaders that they'll receive any money relating to COVID-19 that they would need to provide essential services? And are you in a position to be able to say that you would cover all COVID-19 costs? And what would you say to council leaders who have said that they have had to take out loans to deal with the crisis?

Finally, Minister, turning to recovery, local authorities are, of course, the bodies that are responsible for social care, as well as town centres and regeneration, so they're obviously going to have an important part to play in recovery. What discussions is Welsh Government having with local authorities about that? I completely appreciate that you are dealing with the crisis at the moment, but what thought is being put into that at the moment, particularly in terms of contact tracing and the role that local authorities will have in dealing with that? Thank you.

Sure. On the PPE, we've been working very hard with our local authority colleagues to make sure that we're aware of where the stock is across Wales. And you'll know that we've had military logistics people working on that with us. They've been excellent in working out for us where the stock is and how to get it out to the people who need it, and to give some certainty in that, so, looking back through the records of what is being used so that we can predict demand more effectively, and then knowing where the stock is so that we can get it out to the right people at the same time, and so on. We're very keen that local authorities should have that certainty and, as far as we can provide it, we will, and we're very pleased to have had a recent delivery that you'll all be aware of, but obviously we're in the global supply chain as well. So, we are certainly in the business of making sure that local authorities know what we know and know where the supply is in the chain.

In terms of loss of income for care homes, where a local authority would normally commission services from a care home and that care home can't fill its places at the moment due to the outbreak and so on, then we're very happy for the £40 million that I mentioned in my statement to be used to help fund that care home to keep it viable. The rule of thumb for us has been that local authorities should seek to keep those businesses that they rely on for the service in place so that they're still there at the end of the outbreak. That won't cover every single care home in the independent sector. If you are completely privately funded and you weren't taking local authority referral people into your care home, then you won't be able to access this. Those care homes should be accessing the business support grant system and getting support through loss of income and through the normal business support. But from the point of view of the local authority, they should be using the money to make sure that the service provision remains in place and working with the homes to understand what that looks like. Obviously, we don't want to be shelling money out for no reason, so, it's about understanding what the cash flow looks like and how fast they can start commissioning places there. So, we're expecting that to be happening right across Wales.

In terms of local authorities taking out loans, they should not have had to do that so far. Who knows what will happen at the other end of the year. We are very reliant on the UK Government having to continue the funding to us to make this happen. But, as I said in my statement, we have given out tranches of the RSG much more quickly than we would otherwise have done, so no authority should be, at this point in time, having that kind of problem. And I have a meeting tomorrow with the finance sub-group of the partnership council to go through the work that all local authorities have been doing to numerate their loss of income, fees and charges, so that we can have a look at what we're doing there.

I am urging local authorities that are not yet hit by the peak of the virus not to panic. We are saying, 'Just carry on as normal, do what you need to do and we will be supporting you'. It isn't a first-come, first-served situation. So, nobody should feel obliged to try and put claims in now that they don't really need in order to secure the funding. We're very keen that this is done on an 'as you need it' basis and that we will get the right support out to those authorities that are having that expenditure. 

And on the recovery, I just started the conversation with the leaders last week about the first few things that we think that they might want to start reopening. And I will be continuing that conversation with the WLGA and the partnership council so that we have local authority input into what services local authorities provide, for example, household waste recycling centres and libraries are the ones that everybody mentions—what we would need to put in place by way of guidance or social distancing guidance or staffing in order to allow those kinds of things to happen. So, that conversation has started. 

[Inaudible.]—statement, Minister. I would like to thank the thousands of local government employees who have continued to provide vital services during this lockdown. It's been a massive challenge and our local authorities have risen to it, but there are areas where more needs to be done. We have seen massive rises in fly-tipping; what can local authorities do to ensure that waste facilities reopen as soon as possible? 

And, while I welcome the efforts to get our rough sleepers off the streets and into accommodation where they can take measures to reduce the risk from COVID-19, I am disappointed that it has taken a global pandemic to find accommodation for our homeless. Minister, what happens, as you've already said, when lockdown measures are lifted and tourism resumes? Where will our homeless people go? Has the Welsh Government made any progress in securing suitable long-term accommodation for Wales's homeless population? Some hotels have gone into administration as a result of lockdown. Will the Welsh Government be encouraging local authorities to purchase such properties to use as temporary accommodation moving forward, as well as providing the wraparound support, particularly with those with co-occurring issues?

So, under Government plans, local government officers, particularly those working in environmental health, will play a huge role in taking us out of lockdown. Minister, what assurances can you give the public that health protection measures won't take a back seat as we move into the next phase of the fight against coronavirus? 

Finally, Minister, local authorities are leading the efforts to protect our most vulnerable, who are the shielded. How are the Welsh Government and local authorities ensuring that all the needs of this group will be met during the coming months, including such things as household maintenance and safety checks?

And I thank you for your efforts to mitigate the impacts of this terrible disease and for your assurance on how you are dealing with domestic abuse, which, again, is a huge issue. I thank you for your efforts. Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. 

Thank you for those questions, Caroline. In terms of fly-tipping, obviously, it remains an offence to do that and the police are very keen to prosecute and local authorities are looking to prosecute anybody who does that. Actually, although we obviously have had some instances of that it's not excessive across Wales. People have been pretty responsible, really. We would very much like to open our household waste recycling centres when it's safe to do so, but there are big staffing issues with that. There are big issues about how many people you could leave in at one time; how far they would travel to do it—all kinds of issues, as I'm sure you can imagine. But we are working hard with the local authorities to get a sensible way to take that forward once it’s safe to do so—safe for the staff as well as for the people arriving at the household waste recycling centres.

In terms of the end to rough sleepers, as you've heard me say, we're very determined that nobody will go back onto the streets. Many of the accommodations that we've found will be okay in the longer term, for various reasons, each authority is different; some of them are indeed temporary, but we are working very hard to make sure that they're able to be continued. The answer to the question, 'Why haven’t we been able to do this before?' is very simple: we haven't had the money to do it before. I cannot emphasise enough that we have always known that it's possible to end homelessness if we had enough money to make it happen. What's happened is that the Government's released the funds in order to allow us to do that, and I'm very determined that we can build on that now that it's happened and make sure that we don't go back.

In terms of shielded people, local authorities have moved incredibly quickly, and I'm really grateful to all of the staff that have really tried hard on this, so we have got the food parcels going out. But you're quite right: it's not just about food. So, we have got volunteers contacting shielded people to make sure that they can get their prescriptions filled. And as I said in my statement, we have people doing telephone support for conversation, loneliness, all other needs, including repairs. So, where Care and Repair are called, that’s often because somebody in the shielded group has contacted through their local authority. So, those things are all still happening; I quoted Care and Repair figures during my statement to show that that's still happening. And we're very pleased with the local authorities' ability and their staff's resilience and flexibility in making those things happen. People from right across local authority professions have been retrained onto their contact centres and onto organising volunteers to do this, and I'm very grateful indeed that they have shown the resilience and the courage to do so.

We started today by talking about local government, and I would just like to place on record my very heartfelt thanks to Torfaen council—both councillors and officers—because they have been absolutely outstanding during this pandemic and I really do take my hat off to them.

I had wanted to raise the issue of recovery that Delyth Jewell referred to, specifically in relation to the role that has been set out for local government with contact tracing et cetera. I would just like to take this opportunity to ask you for a very firm assurance that you will be involving local government in all those discussions at the very earliest possible stage now. I'm acutely conscious of the pressure that they've been under, and I think it’s vital that whatever is developed is co-produced with them. So, I would just like to take this opportunity to ask you for that assurance again. Thank you.

Yes, and I'm very happy to give it, Lynne. We're very keen to make sure that, when we put the recovery provisions in place they are operationally doable and feasible, and that local authorities will be able to cope with that in terms of capacity, and what we're asking is both practical and realistic, because otherwise it doesn’t work.

I have a very regular telephone conversation with all 22 leaders in which we discuss all of these issues arising, and I've been making absolutely certain that the WLGA and its officers are involved in co-producing anything that happens. We have had the occasional blip where we've been wrong-footed by something happening, because this is a very fast-moving environment, but we've always been able to correct that and make sure that local authorities are in the loop, and that what we're designing is both practical and deliverable. So, I couldn’t agree more, and I absolutely do give you that assurance that they are now, and will be in the future, completely involved in designing anything that we come up with.

Your colleague, the finance Minister, has confirmed to me that the additional £95 million that Welsh Government is receiving following the UK Government's announcement of extra funding for local government in England will go into the Welsh Government's central fund. Given the comments you've made, how will you address the impacts of COVID-19 on local authority finances after the survey that the Welsh Local Government Association asked local authorities to complete by the end of this month reveals what the situation might be in terms of lost income, currently estimated at £33.2 million per month, although there's some potential for mitigating cost savings; immediate additional revenue cost of responding to the emergency, although I acknowledge that you've sent a claim form out to local authorities so that they can claim these back; longer term additional revenue costs and additional capital costs, where each local authority, as I'm sure you'll acknowledge, will be in a different position in terms of their own financial resilience and reserves, with some more exposed than others?

So, we're obviously very grateful to have had the consequential off the UK Government. We've already given out £110 million to local authorities, and we were well ahead of the consequential arriving, but, yes, we're working very hard, as I said in response to earlier questions—. We're working very hard with local authorities to understand the actuals on the ground. This isn't about a formula or trying to work out a one-size-fits-all. This is about trying to work out with each authority what their actual issues are and to try and cover them off.

As you rightly said, Mark, we're doing a piece of work with the WLGA and local authorities at the moment to understand what their lost income looks like. That's lost fees and charges income and so on. That's income other than council tax and non-domestic rates. We're doing a different piece of work to understand what the effect of lost council tax, the increased claiming of council tax relief and the loss of NDR looks like for them, so there are other bits of work going on for that. I have a meeting of the finance sub-group of the partnership council tomorrow in which we will have a look at the first situation of that and run through what we're doing, and we're very keen to work with them.

I would like to make it clear, though, that depending on how long this goes on for, so if the lockdown continues another two months—it's hypothetical, I hasten to say; I'm not saying that will happen, but if it happened—then, clearly, at the other end of the year, we would have a problem. So, I don't have infinite resources, the UK Government would also have that problem, and we will have to work very closely with them to see what would happen the other end. So, what we've done is frontloaded it, told people to do the right thing, 'Don't worry about it right now. We'll cover you off and then we'll work together as we understand what this looks like to understand what the longer term impact will be.' And you're quite right, local authorities will have different positions and we're very much reacting to it in that way. So, it's not a one-size-fits-all; we're not using the formula approach. We're working with each individual authority.

Minister, some prisoners from HMP Berwyn and other prisons in Wales, of course, are being released early due to COVID-19. Now, that isn't a devolved matter, unfortunately, but the impact on local authorities of having early releases presenting as homeless is a devolved issue, of course, and I know you've touched on that briefly in your statement and in a couple of subsequent answers.

We also know, of course, the statistics from the Ministry of Justice show that prisoners in Wales or in Welsh jails make up 25 per cent of all confirmed cases in Wales and England, which is a hugely worrying statistic, particularly when prisoners in Wales make up just 6 per cent of the estate. So, can I ask what dealings has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government regarding this worrying level of infection within Welsh prisons? And, of course, whilst there are plans afoot in north Wales in relation to Berwyn to deal with this extra pressure on council homelessness services, I would like an assurance from you that all prisoners that are being released are being tested for COVID-19 and, of course, are able to isolate if they're found to be positive. 

Thank you, Llyr. So, as I've said very briefly already, we've got a pathway in place now for every prisoner being released. So, we have different categories of prisoner being released, but they all have a pathway. Where somebody is up for early release—and so far, we've had very low numbers of those, but we are expecting that to increase as time goes on—if they're showing any symptoms of the virus, then they are not released. They are simply no longer considered for early release. Where somebody is coming to the end of their served sentence, then, obviously, they have to be released regardless, and then a system is in place to make sure that we understand what managing their symptoms looks like, that they're going somewhere that can allow them to self-isolate, if that's what's appropriate, or get the right treatment and so on. So, we have that pathway in place.

We've been working very hard with the prison and probation service to get that pathway in place. I'm aware of one blip that happened earlier on, but we've sorted that out, I'm assured now. I myself brought this up in the sub-COBRA group that I attend on a near-daily basis, which is the central public services ministerial information group, as it's snappily entitled, and I brought that up directly with the Minister and he took that on board, to be fair, and they have been working very closely with us. So, I'm happy for the moment that it's in place, but we are maintaining vigilance so that we get the right information at the right time so that we can put those things in place.

The last thing to say on that is: you're right, it does go to local authorities to sort out, but we are working on a regional hub basis as well, so if there is a massive increase in the number of prisoners released as a result of the need to get people into single cells and so on, we will be ready to be able to cope with that, but that's not the situation at the moment. That's just forward planning in case.

I want to first of all put my thanks to all those people who've worked and led at local government to help people within their localities.

I want to move on, actually, to people who are tenants in the private rented sector. I do want to welcome the action that Welsh Government has taken to ensure that tenants at this point don't face financial hardship, and they're not evicted. But I think we need to recognise the value now especially of Rent Smart Wales, which has raised standards and embedded good practice in the private rented sector over the last four years, and it's vital, of course, that we don't now slip backwards and lose good landlords. So, I'd like you, if you can, to clarify the position of private landlords and their status as self-employed businesses and whether they qualify for Government financial support or any other support for those who need it, because it's fairly obvious that private landlords who have actually paid off their mortgage won't get a mortgage holiday, and they can't have any benefit from that, but nonetheless, they are reliant on the income from their tenants to survive. So, I'm concerned that if we see a crunch in the private rented sector, ultimately, that will be a crisis within those communities, specifically in rural areas, going forward.

Thank you for that, Joyce, and you're absolutely right: we have worked very hard with Rent Smart Wales, and, actually, as I frequently say, the vast majority of our landlords are good landlords and we're very glad to have them working with us in the sector, and to be fair, as I said earlier, in response to I think it was Delyth, we work very well with them and with the representative bodies as well, and they've been very helpful to us.

We are looking at ways—we've just issued some guidance that affects landlords, agent representative bodies, and tenancy management services to try and assist them to find the right support, and we are working with the sector to make sure it's there. They are reliant on the business support that's out there, and many of them will not meet the thresholds for some of that, so they don't pay VAT, for example, and so on. So, we are working with the sector to understand what the risk is to the sector and to see what we can put in place to ensure that anybody at risk of financial hardship is supported in some way.

Most of the work we have been doing is for tenants, because they're more badly impacted, but you're quite right to highlight that some landlords are reliant on their rent, and if their tenant is unable to pay it, they are themselves in serious difficulty. We are working hard to see what we can put in place to protect the sector, because as you've heard me say in numerous previous appearances in Plenary, we value our private rented sector and we very much want to work with them to make it a sector of choice for the tenants in Wales.

Thank you very much. As local authorities plan their services, they will need data, and they rely on Government to share with them that data in as timely a manner as possible in terms of the latest modelling and what that's revealing. Here in Anglesey, the local authority feels that the work of surge planning, looking forward over the next few weeks—the work that they have to do is being held back by some slowness in sharing the latest modelling work done by Government. So, can I ask the Minister for an assurance that every local authority has the information that they need in terms of pandemic modelling, and that updates will be shared with local authorities like Ynys Môn as soon as possible, and in as timely a manner as possible, so that they can plan as effectively as possible for the future?

I'm surprised to hear that, Rhun, and sorry to hear it, because as I say, I meet with the leaders on a very regular basis and other Ministers, including the Minister for Health and Social Services and the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, join that call on a very regular basis. I can't recollect that that's been raised with me. I can't say that I can recollect every single thing that they raise with me because they are often very many and varied. But I don't recollect that; I'll certainly check back, but I'm very happy to give that assurance. We are very keen to work in partnership, in harmony with the local authorities. They clearly need to be able to plan properly for what is coming down the line, and we work very hard to make sure that the data gets out to them. It hasn't always been perfect because this has been a rapidly moving situation. We've all got so used to this new normal, we've forgotten how fast we've put these processes in place, and they're not yet perfect. But I will certainly take that back and have a look at it. It's not the intention. The intention is to make sure that local authorities are in their best possible position to put the plans in place that they need to deliver the services we rely on them for.

[Inaudible.]—for administering the small business rate relief grant of £10,000, which was supposed to go to all businesses that pay business rates. I have had many complaints from people around furnished holiday letting businesses in Dwyfor Meironnydd that Gwynedd county council is withholding payments because Welsh Government has set new criteria that apply no other form of business which these businesses have to satisfy in order to get the grant. I understand that the problem is to stop people using what are really second homes, and not businesses, and calling them their furnished holiday letting businesses and therefore qualifying for the grant, but it seems to me that the Welsh Government here is looking at the wrong target. The definition of a business for tax purposes is a very comprehensive one provided by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, and if somebody is actually using a second home as a second home and only in a very small minority of the time for letting purposes, then they shouldn't be paying business rates at all. So, county councils should really be administering the business rates scheme properly rather than depriving true businesses of what they're entitled to under this nationwide scheme. So, I wonder if the Minister would look again at the criteria here and see if they can be tweaked in some way. For example, why should a small business in this sector alone have to be more than 50 per cent of the owner's income?

Thank you for that. We have actually just tweaked the system as a result of being asked to do so by a large number of local authorities towards the north and west of the country who have a very—Gwynedd, in particular, has a very large number of these. We looked again at the criteria that we were setting out, and we've shifted the criteria so that you now have to have rented your home out for a 140 days, not 70 as it was previously, and that it has to be a substantial part of your income—probably 50 per cent as a rule of thumb. However, it is a discretion for the local authorities. So, if a legitimate business has, for whatever reason, not been able to satisfy the criteria, the local authority still has discretion to pay the grant out. What we've done is changed the presumption the other way around. So, originally the presumption was that everybody would get it unless you could prove they weren't a legitimate business; we've simply shifted it so that now they don't get it unless they can prove they are. If they can prove they are, then the authority has the ability to use its discretion to pay out the grant. I've responded to local authorities' request to do that, and I'm very happy that we did that. I have, myself—. I'm aware of one or two people who are complaining about it, but, you know, the discretion exists for the local authority, and we've directed them to the local authority to ask them to exercise it in that way.

Minister, I'm sure you won't be surprised to hear I've had lots of positive feedback from Cynon Valley businesses about the speed and efficiency of Rhondda Cynon Taf's application of the rate relief element of the Welsh Government business support. But having said that, I am concerned that some businesses are being—[Inaudible.]—access that support. What dialogue has taken place with partners in local government about the application of their powers to apply hardship or discretionary rate relief more generally? And, secondly, although the coronavirus crisis has led to the suspension of normal life in very many ways, my constituency postbag continues to contain a significant element of casework from tenants of registered social landlords, just as it always did before the pandemic. I note your earlier comments about care and repair, but aside from that, and with many RSLs either furloughing staff or seconding them to local authority hubs, what work is being done to ensure that RSLs still have the ability and the capacity to meet their tenants' essential needs?

Thank you, Vikki. So, going in reverse order, we do expect RSLs to continue to meet all of their tenants' needs. We've been very clear that it would be very exceptional that an RSL should be furloughing staff, for example, and have been very clear with that, and, to be fair, Community Housing Cymru have been very clear about that as well. So, RSLs should be still carrying on all of the repairs and so on that they do. The only exceptions to that would be where it isn't safe to do so—so, where there's somebody in the house that they're trying to repair that is self-isolating or whatever and that makes it impossible. But, other than in those kinds of exceptions, they should be carrying on with essential maintenance and repairs. And, as I said, we're also encouraging them to bring voids back into use as fast as possible, so that we can get people out of unsuitable accommodation. If you want to highlight any of those cases to me so that I can take them up with particular RSLs, I'm very happy to do that. 

In terms of the hardship funds and the discretionary rate relief funds, I haven't had it highlighted to me that there's a particular issue, so, again, if you want to highlight any particular issues, I'm very happy to take that up with the particular local authority and see if we can assist them in the way that they're exercising their discretion. And, if it's something that's not currently covered, then—. Obviously, we've put all of these things in place very quickly; I'm very pleased with the local authorities and very grateful to their staff for the hard work that they've done, but it is already the new normal, and it's always important to remember how swiftly we have actually gone from where we were only a few weeks ago to here. So, it's not perfect and I'm very happy to look at any examples from across Members to see how we can refine it and make it better as we go forward.

Thank you, Minister.

In accordance with Standing Orders 12.24 and 12.40, unless a Member objects, the motions for the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (Wales) Regulations 2020 and the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2020 will be grouped for debate and for voting. I see that there are no objections. 

Therefore, we move to items 6 and 7 on those regulations. I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services to move the motions—Vaughan Gething.

Thank you, Llywydd. I formally move the two sets of regulations before us today. I do want to address at the outset a brief drafting issue with the motions because, Llywydd, shortly before this debate it was brought to my attention that the motions before us contain an error. The motions refer to draft regulations, but these regulations have quite clearly already been made, and it is the Senedd's approval for them to remain in place that is being sought. I'd like to reassure Members that this does not alter the content of the regulations, nor does it alter the intent of the motion that the Senedd's being asked to approve today. The Government will of course ensure that future motions for made affirmative instruments are corrected. 

I would like to listen to the debate from Members, as the powers within the regulations have been debated and I think are well understood. I'll be happy to address Members about the content of these, or about the future continuance and the proportionate use of them, having listened to what Members have to say today.

I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Mick Antoniw.

Diolch, Llywydd. The first set of regulations that we'll consider today, the principal set of coronavirus restrictions regulations, were laid before the Assembly during the period when the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee were not sitting as usual, as a result of this ongoing COVID-19 pandemic. As such, and in line with the temporary process established by the Business Committee, an advice note prepared by Assembly Commission lawyers was laid before the Assembly by the Llywydd. The note contained the same advice that would have been provided to our committee. The Welsh Government has laid a response to the points raised in that advice note, and both documents have been made available to all the Members and are available to them on today's agenda. 

We considered the amending regulations at our committee meeting yesterday morning and laid our report on the regulations straight after our meeting. Our report contains two technical reporting points under Standing Order 21.2, and three merits points under Standing Order 21.3. Again, our report is available as a supporting document on the Plenary agenda, and I won't comment on each of the reporting points this afternoon. My contribution will focus on our second technical reporting point and our first merits point.

Our second technical reporting point relates to the powers on which the Welsh Government has relied to make the regulations. In making these regulations, Welsh Ministers have not relied on the enabling power contained in section 45C(4)(d) of the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984. Section 45C(4)(d) of the 1984 Act enables the Welsh Ministers to include in regulations a special restriction or requirement.

Regulations 2 and 4 of these regulations respectively amend regulations 5 and 7 of the principal regulations, which require the closure of holiday accommodation and places of worship during the emergency period. Regulation 7 of these amending regulations also amends various provisions of the principal regulations concerning the closure of premises.

In our report, we said that it appears that Welsh Ministers should rely on enabling powers under section 45C(4)(d)of the 1984 Act in order to make the regulations 2, 4 and 7. I note that the Welsh Government's view is that these regulations have been made in exercise of the powers that accurately reflect the content of them. The Welsh Government believe that the power to make regulations is centred upon section 45C(1) of the 1984 Act and referring to section 45C(4) of the 1984 Act would be unhelpful and inaccurate.

So, moving on to our first merits reporting point, which relates to human rights, the explanatory memorandum that accompanies the amending regulations sets out the Welsh Government's assessment of the interference with certain articles of the European convention on human rights. The explanatory memorandum names articles 1, 8 and 11. In our view, the assessment does not appear to be complete, because we believe that article 9 of the European convention on human rights—freedom of thought, conscience and religion—is engaged in respect of regulations 4 and 6 of these regulations. This right is a qualified right, which permits the Welsh Ministers to interfere with the exercise of the rights in the same manner as with articles 8 and 11 of the European convention. And, further, until the end of the EU withdrawal transition period, the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union will apply to the United Kingdom.

There are corresponding protections to those in the European convention on human rights contained in the EU charter of fundamental rights: subject to the principle of proportionality, limitations that affect the rights under the charter may be made if they are necessary and genuinely meet objectives of general interest that are recognised by the European Union or the need to protect the rights and freedoms of others.

Fundamentally, in our view, the justification given by the Welsh Government in relation to the articles 8 and 11 of the European convention applies equally to interference with the rights under article 9 and the EU charter of rights. Thank you, Llywydd.

Thank you for bringing forward these regulations; as you say, they're already in action. The Welsh Conservatives are going to be supporting them, but I do have a couple of questions, Minister, that I would like to ask you, about them as we go forward.

We do welcome the part of the regulations that actually says that people must not leave, for any length of time, their home. In other words, this is a way of stopping people going to second homes and deciding to take up residence there. But I have been asked for clarity on this by a number of organisations. Do these regulations actually give the police the power to knock the door and say to the occupants, 'You now must get in your car and go away' or is it still that the police can only advise them that they should be returning?

It is very welcome that these regulations have brought forward the ability for people to go out and undertake all forms of exercise more than once a day if they fall into a certain sort of category, and I'm grateful for that. And I know that that's actually brought a great deal of cheer to some families under enormous stress because they have children with learning disabilities and who need to have that ability to go outside and do further exercise.

Could you please tell me how you have risk-assessed these lockdown measures, or the regulations that lead to this—so, both the original set of regulations and these? I'm assuming that there is a cognisant process around it that looked at what risks are in place while we have these regulations. So, I'm assuming that risk assessment would have looked at mental health issues, how people are going to react to this—it might have looked at social isolation issues—and I'd be really interested to know if you're able to give us some insight on this, especially if these regulations are going to have to continue for a specific length of time, going forward.

And that brings me to my last point, which is: will it be via these regulations or another amendment to them that you would start to seek to lift lockdown? Because I've made an assumption, and it may well be incorrect, so I'd be grateful for your steer, that, as we move forward and if we are able to lift some of the lockdown, then these regulations will need to be constantly altered and shaped. Will you continue to do that and will these regulations be the ones that will actually still say to people, 'You must be 2m apart', or would you be seeking to bring in longer term legislation?

We're in a very difficult situation, and I've had, obviously, an awful lot of e-mail traffic, as I'm sure others have, from people who are beginning to feel that perhaps this is an infringement of their human rights. I know that the Chair of the committee did raise that point and just made an observation. We're in unprecedented times. I think these regulations are as light touch as they can be, but I do think it would be very good if we could let people know how long you would see these to be going on as we move forward. Thank you, Minister.

[Inaudible.] It's very important that we appreciate the gravity of what we're discussing. We are talking here about some of the greatest decisions that the Assembly has faced in its history, in a way. The question facing us, in reality, is: are we convinced that we should support Welsh Government regulations that put that legal mechanism in place to enforce these unprecedented and far-reaching changes to the way of life that we have seen imposed over the past few weeks?

Now, the main regulations and the amending regulations are made under the affirmative procedure, but it's being done retrospectively, as the Minister mentioned in his opening remarks, and I think that reflects just how extraordinary the situation that we find ourselves in is. So, they are already in force, but the Government must secure the support of this Assembly within 28 days of the date of the making of the regulations, so that they can remain in law in Wales.

Restrictions of this kind on our freedom are not introduced lightly. We see further recognition within the regulations as to just how far-reaching they are, in terms of the requirement on Ministers to review the need for these restrictions placed by these regulations every 21 days—and I paraphrase the regulations there. That is most appropriate in order to secure public support for these steps and also to ensure that we make decisions that are based on the latest evidence, and the evidence does change; we are always learning.

Now, the next review date, as has been widely reported, will be a week tomorrow, 7 May. Now, we have seen just how great an impact these regulations and these restrictions have had, but there is a context to this, of course: the undoubtedly positive impact that these steps have had in terms of limiting the spread of coronavirus to date. We are just beginning the debate on what would need to be in place before we can even consider relaxing these restrictions in any way—the need that was discussed earlier in this session for robust plans in terms of community testing and so on, and planning infrastructure to ensure the move to the next phase.

And I will conclude these remarks by asking a question, and to ask for an assurance. Now, we haven't reached the peak in many areas, including here in Ynys Môn, and we must be wary of not moving too swiftly in relaxing these regulations. Of course, we would expect the Government to do what is right for all parts of Wales. So, as I say, while we do support this, I would be grateful if the Minister in his response could confirm that it would be entirely premature to see any relaxation of these regulations before the bank holiday weekend, which is a week next Friday. We will support the regulations, but we're not willing to let them go yet, for the benefit of everyone's health.

We supported the legislative consent motion for the UK Coronavirus Act 2020, and we might have taken a different view on these regulations if they had been considered by the Assembly around the time they were brought into force on 26 March. But, at that stage, we faced a very real prospect of our NHS being absolutely overwhelmed, and our critical and intensive care simply not being able to cope in the way that we'd seen in north Italy. It was thought it was necessary to flatten that peak of the pandemic to ensure that the NHS would be able to cope. We've done that, and I'd like to thank everyone involved, particularly the public service NHS staff, but also the Welsh Government for the work that it has done.

However, we're now at 29 April and the number of cases, the number of deaths—of course, a lagging indicator—and the number of infections have been declining, at least on a UK and a Wales-wide basis, for some time now, particularly in my region of south-east Wales where we did see some of the highest infection rates early on. Those numbers, I'm pleased to say, are coming down. The restriction on liberty, the damage to the economy and the damage, frankly, to people's well-being that we can justify is less when those cases are on a firmly declining trajectory than when they were on a sharply rising trajectory with the real likelihood of the NHS being overwhelmed. So, for those reasons, we propose to oppose these regulations in a vote today.

We have two other key issues about these. First, we are unhappy with Welsh Government legislating differently through regulations from England simply for the sake of it. I was told earlier by the First Minister how dare I suggest that we are acting or should be compared to a template set by England. But that's exactly what we're doing. These coronavirus regulations have largely been copied and pasted from these English versions, and if you look at the first page of it, the only changes as we passed ours a couple of hours later—the Government didn't lay them for the Assembly until the next day—are where it says 'Secretary of State' it's deleted and it says 'Welsh Ministers', and where it says 'England' it has been changed to say 'Wales'. So, for Wales, see England. And when some changes have been made, particular changes we don't agree with. This restriction on exercise, where it's in law that it should only be once a day in Wales, but not in England, we don't see the justification for that, particularly because the virus is harder to get outside than it is in an enclosed, internal space. We're concerned that this pettifogging, this micromanaging of exactly what people do in terms of external exercise brings the rest of the restrictions, or the rest of the exhortations as to what people should do, into doubt. I'm pleased to say the National Police Chiefs Council have given some coronavirus briefing for Wales, and they say:

'Welsh officers and staff can use the briefing for England'.

It does then tell them that they should be aware that the exercise once a day is in law in Wales, but it says that they don't need to worry about Government guidance around exercise, all this stuff about not driving to exercise, or only cycling within a reasonable walking distance of your home, because all that is just guidance and isn't in law, so police officers and staff can instead use the regulations that they put for England that don't have this, and don't prevent people driving a reasonable way in order to exercise.

We're also very concerned about how Welsh Government says they're going to end these regulations. How they should end them is in law. It states in the regulations that, as soon as they're not necessary to prevent the spread of infection proportionate to that, they should be removed, and the UK Government has set five tests that go to that point. Welsh Government has, instead, published a much longer list of seven areas and then quite a lot of supporting stuff. Supposedly, they'll look at whether they have a high positive equality impact or what they do about an equal or greener Wales, or the future generations Act, or do they widen participation and give a more inclusive society. I'm sorry, if you put these regulations at this degree of strictness, not that far short of house arrest, you need the strongest possible requirement in order to keep them. You can't just have your ideological lodestars and say, 'Oh we're going to keep them longer, possibly for all these reasons', which you don't have any basis in law for saying. So, for those reasons we'll be voting against these regulations.

I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services to reply to the debate. 

Thank you, Llywydd. Thank you to the Members who have contributed to the debate. Perhaps it's worth setting out that we have taken unprecedented steps to protect public health from the risk of coronavirus, and even though we have been successful in preventing a much wider and more catastrophic spread of coronavirus, this is still not over and it is certainly not trivial, with more than 1,000 confirmed deaths across Wales. And we know there will be more to come. But the approach we have taken with the rules we have set out and the behaviour of the public has undoubtedly helped to save lives, and I'm tremendously grateful still not just to our front-line staff, but to members of the public who have followed the rules and made a real difference.

As we know, the two sets of regulations debated today were introduced under the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984, under emergency procedures. Rather than the criticism made by the Brexit Party, I think it's a good thing that Governments of the United Kingdom, the four Governments, have shared information and then made choices for the country and people that we are responsible for within each of the four respective Governments. I don't accept the out-of-step and, in my view, misguided view from the Brexit Party that we should simply do what England has done, and we're certainly not dealing with an ideological lodestar. We're looking at the purpose and the proportionality of the regulations we have in place and the purpose of them. 

The principal regulations came into force on 26 March, and those brought in the view about people only leaving home for limited purposes, including essential shopping, exercise once a day, any medical need or to provide care or help to a vulnerable person, and travelling to and from work if necessary. To deal with Angela Burns's point, the police cannot require people to leave homes when they are in residence. It's a matter we're still talking through with both the police and local government about the issue, and I don't want to trivialise it, of people in second homes. That's an issue we still discuss because of the ongoing review of the regulations. But the main purpose of the principal regulations is to minimise the extent to which people leave their homes during this continuing emergency period to help contain coronavirus, to minimise the burden on health services and to save more lives. So, unjustified and unnecessary journeys are prohibited. 

The amendment regulations that came into force on 7 April made a number of important changes, including the social distancing measures in places of work. And, actually, we've been followed by other parts of the United Kingdom, having introduced those rules. They were made to both protect individual health and minimise the risk of transmission in the workplace. We also made clear in those regulations that businesses can continue to provide services online or by telephone or post.

Llywydd, it remains my view and the Government's view that these are sensible restrictions introduced to deal with a national health emergency. This is still a once-in-a-century event, and there will be many more difficult days ahead of us. We are constantly reviewing the requirements and talking to stakeholders to see what amendments need to be made. And, in some areas, that may well mean strengthening or changing legislative requirements, and that may well mean that Wales goes first or in a different direction to other parts of the United Kingdom, because we have to respond to the responsibilities we continue to have, and we cannot contract out of for the people of Wales. In other areas, they may be eased, where it is safe to do so. 

Now, as Members will be aware, we further amended the principal regulations last Friday, as part of the ongoing review process. Those regulations make a number of revisions, including permitting exercise more than once a day because of a particular health condition or disability, and making it clear that visiting a cemetery or other burial ground to pay respects to a deceased person is a reasonable excuse for leaving where you live. And those amending regulations will come before the Senedd shortly.

I just want to deal with some of the challenge about the collective approach that we have, and the central messages remain the same: anyone can get the virus, anyone can spread it, and we do still need to continue to stay at home, protect the NHS and to save lives. I think the tone of some of Mr Reckless's contribution was not as helpful as I would have wished it to be in reinforcing that message, because we are seeing the effects of those measures and are taking the steps needed to help our NHS to cope, to keep essential services running and to protect the most vulnerable, but there's still a long way to go. So, we are reviewing the measures and making changes to respond to the challenges being faced in parts of the country and by families throughout Wales.

The regulations implemented in Wales are essential on the basis of the clinical and scientific advice to respond to this situation. The measures are temporary and proportionate to the threat that we face, and they will only be in place for as long as they are required. They're continuously reviewed, with advice on the balance of risk in this public health emergency, and there is a formal 21-day review period looking at the seven tests published by the First Minister last Friday to determine the necessity for the regulations to continue. And in my view, we're in a better position in Wales for having been more open and provided more detail about those tests for the continuance of these regulations, and the possible paths through lockdown. Nobody should expect that the restrictions will end for the bank holiday weekend; they will not. The path out of lockdown will be phased and cautious.

So, I ask the Senedd to support these regulations and agree that they are necessary for ensuring the protection of the citizens of Wales we are responsible for. They will, as I've said, be kept under review and removed or amended as soon as it is safe for us to do so. 

The proposal is to agree to the motions. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, I see an objection and therefore we move to vote on the motions. 

As indicated on the agenda, today's votes will be conducted in accordance with Standing Order 34.11. Each political group may nominate one Member of the group to carry the same number of votes as there are Members of the group. In the case of a political group with an Executive role, the nominee may carry the same number of votes as there are Members of that group, plus any other Members of the Government. Members who do not belong to a group will vote for themselves. I will conduct the vote by roll call, and therefore as the Assembly has agreed to group the motions on the two regulations under agenda items 6 and 7, there will only be one vote. I call therefore for a vote on the motions tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans, and on behalf of the Labour group and the Government I'll ask Vikki Howells: how do you cast your 30 votes? 

For. 

On behalf of the Welsh Conservative group, Angela Burns, how do your cast your 11 votes? 

For. 

On behalf of Plaid Cymru, Siân Gwenllian, how do you cast your nine votes? 

For. 

On behalf of the Brexit Party, Mark Reckless, how do you cast your four votes? 

Against.

Gareth Bennett, how do you cast your vote? I think that was against, although not clearly heard. 

It was against. 

Yes, against. Thank you, Gareth Bennett. Neil Hamilton, how do you cast your vote? That again I think was against. 

Against. 

Against. And Neil McEvoy, how do you cast your vote?

For. 

I think it was o blaid; I was lip reading there for a second. 

It was, yes. 

O blaid, for. The result, therefore, of the vote is—I will quickly look at my WhatsApp group—in favour 51, no abstentions and six against. And therefore, the motions are agreed. 

That brings today's proceedings to a close. Members may wish to be aware that this was the one thousand three hundred and seventy eighth and final meeting of the National Assembly for Wales. In accordance with the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Act 2020, we will reconvene next week as the Senedd, Senedd Cymru, the Welsh Parliament. 

Good afternoon to you all.