National Assembly for Wales

I call Members to order. 

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Economy and Transport, and the first question is from Helen Mary Jones. 

Yes, of course. We're moving forward with our ambitious vision to reshape public transport infrastructure and services across the whole of Wales, including, of course, local bus services, rail services, active travel and the various metro projects, which will act as a blueprint for integrated transport right across the whole of Wales.

I thank the Minister for his response. Constituents are saying to me that they thought there was a lot of emphasis on connectivity in urban contexts, and particularly in the Valleys, and, obviously, that is very important. But can the Minister say a little bit more about what he's doing, particularly in the context of the west of Wales, to ensure that that connectivity is prioritised for rural communities too? There are real issues at the moment about connectivity between trains and buses in Carmarthenshire, and there are also issues about frequency of services. For example, we have many more trains going through the station at Kidwelly than actually stop there. So, can the Minister say a little more about what he's doing to ensure that connectivity can be brought into being, and what recent discussions he's had, and particularly perhaps in the context of the Swansea city region deal, where, of course, there is again talk about connectivity and public transport, but there's a lack of clarity from my perspective about how that affects the more rural areas—Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire—as well as the core centre of Swansea city itself?

Can I thank the Member for what is an incredibly important question? For many people, bus services, and transport as a whole, is the number one challenge that they face in accessing services, in accessing leisure opportunities and, most significantly of all in many areas, in accessing work. And I've said in this Chamber before that there are some parts of Wales where as many as 20 per cent of people cannot afford or secure a means of getting to their job interviews, never mind getting to work. They are essentially locked out of the workplace. And, therefore, the radical reforms that we are proposing to local bus services are absolutely vital. We've published the White Paper. I know that there has been an excellent response to the consultation, which ended on 27 March. And I would agree entirely with the Member that the focus cannot solely be on urban areas where the mass of population lives, and must equally be on solutions for more rural areas. And I'm pleased that we recently announced four pilot schemes, including one in west Wales, to examine the potential for the deployment of demand-responsive transport—as some have put it, the 'uberisation' of bus services, albeit with an injection of soul. And I think what's going to be important in those pilots is that we're going to be able to test a new means of meeting passenger demand, but a means that is as affordable, potentially even less expensive to the taxpayer in terms of subsidies than conventional forms of bus services and scheduled bus services.

Now, whilst this pilot in the west of Wales and the other three pilots are taking place, we are, of course, operating a series of TrawsCymru services, and I was pleased that, just yesterday, we commenced a new TrawsCymru route in west Wales, linking Fishguard with St David's, Haverfordwest, on the T11 route. But I'm keen to make sure that, through reforms, through better using the public subsidy, we see more bus services respond to passenger demands across all communities—urban and rural. 

Absolutely. We are committed to ensure that Transport for Wales delivers a sustainable fare strategy and the highest level of service for all rail customers throughout Wales that will meet the needs of communities both in rural and in urban areas.  

Thanks for the answer, Minister. I wonder if I could ask you to liaise with Transport for Wales to ensure that my constituents are not put off travelling by rail fares that are inappropriately priced for routes across mid Wales stations, particularly from Wales into England? One of my constituents has done a piece of work that shows that a constituent can buy a ticket in Caersws, Newtown or Welshpool to Telford or Wellington, and the cost is more expensive than if they'd bought a ticket to Birmingham New Street. So, it does seem to be out of context in terms of the miles travelled. I would be grateful for your comments and your commitment to ensure that fares are suitably priced for distance travelled, to encourage rather than discourage rail travel.

Can I thank the Member for his question and also thank him for contacting TfW directly regarding the inquiry that he's again raised today? It was an important piece of work that was carried out by a constituent of Russell George, and I really do appreciate the constructive feedback that we've received regarding fares on the Cambrian line. I should just say, before I move to the broader issue of the fares regime, that TfW have passed this feedback to the team that's responsible for setting rail fares; they're looking into it at this moment in time, in readiness for the next round of fare changes. And TfW, I can assure the Member, will pay particular attention to the fares on this route to ensure that any anomalies are addressed.

Now, the fare regime is, of course, based on decades-old regulations, and there are a number of interventions that TfW will be making, and already are making, to reduce fares for many people, particularly young people, and to ensure the fare regime is more transparent and easier to understand. But this matter is incredibly important for the next 15 years—for the entire period of the new franchise. And for that reason, the rail delivery group, which includes TfW, is looking into delivering an easier-to-use and much better value fare system. It will be underpinned by an easier-to-use range of fares, and it will be delivered by updating that set of regulations that I mentioned. It could see pay-as-you-go, with a price cap, introduced on commuter services right across the country. It could give flexible workers a far better deal as a consequence. It would also enable greater local control over fares, which is something that I know that Members in this Chamber are keen to see. And I think it would also, in turn, lead to better integration of rail fares with those of other modes of transport, for example with buses, where we also intend to give councils more control.

With a fully reformed fares system, for the first time passengers would be able to benefit from a guarantee that they would pay the best fares for their journey, every time, with no need to split their tickets. That is part of our vision for a fully integrated and fair rail, bus and public transport system in Wales.

I'm grateful to the Minister for his answer to Russell George—it's very important, and it's useful to hear what the forward plans are. I travelled last week on the Cambrian coast line—I must say, to my shame—for the first time north of Machynlleth; I'd used the other part of the line frequently. And I was struck there by the very high number of passengers using that train for very short journeys—one or two stops—particularly school students. Can I ask the Minister to ensure that, in this review of fares, he does keep in mind, as he says he will, the need to keep fares affordable for young people, because those young people, if they weren't travelling on that train, their parents would be having to provide transport, or the county council would be having to provide road transport, which we seek to avoid, and also to ensure that regular users of services have got favourable access to season ticket arrangements, so that we can carry on encouraging our constituents to make those short journeys as well as using rail for longer travel?

Can I thank Helen Mary Jones for her questions, and for the important points that she makes about ensuring that we have the lowest possible fares for young people, people who really do depend on rail transport day in, day out? I should just say that, under the previous operator, cheaper fares were only available to purchase on a limited number of routes. Now, with TfW now operating the franchise, advance tickets are single tickets for specific trains, which can be bought from 12 weeks up to 6 p.m. prior to the day of travel. Passengers then purchase another advance single ticket for return journeys. Now, in the longer term, I intend to reform this situation. However, in the shorter term, it should be noted that the average saving, through the advance ticket mechanism, is 48 per cent—a considerable saving. We're also looking at rolling out across the Wales and borders network smart ticketing. And, elsewhere, customers are going to be able to use mobile tickets to ensure that they always pay the lowest fare.

Now, with regard to young people, already in terms of bus travel we've extended the mytravelpass scheme. And we are now examining ways that we might be able to automatically enrol all young people into that vitally important scheme that offers a significant saving to young passengers. But, for rail, TFW plan to extend the current national rail conditions of carriage, allowing free rail travel to children up to the age of 11 years. In addition, Llywydd, TFW are proposing to introduce free off-peak travel for all passengers under the age of 16, travelling with paying adults, on flows where TFW are able to set the fare and which are on the Wales and borders rail service lines. Furthermore, Llywydd, I'm pleased to say that they also plan to extend the age limit up to 18 years for child fares on the Wales and borders services.

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Russell George.

Diolch, Llywydd. Does the Minister share my concerns that the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales is behind schedule in the delivery of its remit?

I'll be meeting with the national infrastructure commission shortly. I will be discussing their remit and I'll be discussing their forward work programme. Given that they take a view on longer term infrastructure needs, I am content with the pace of work to date. However, I do wish to see that any work undertaken from now on is undertaken in the most exhaustive way possible. 

Thank you for the answer, Minister. I'm not aware that there is any recommendation that has come forward yet in terms of infrastructure projects over the next five to 30 years, which is exactly why the commission, of course, has been set up. But a key structural problem, I suggest, Minister, is that, in Wales, planning, funding and delivery cycles of infrastructure and construction projects are often poorly co-ordinated. 

For example, right across Wales at present, in a period that the construction sector loosely refers to as 'mad March', local authorities are all at the same time spending money at the end of the financial year. Further still, local government spending cycles are often not in line with the infrastructure delivery strategies of other organisations, including the Welsh Government. So, this uncoordinated approach means that the construction industry in Wales has a stop-start work flow, and uncertainty as to what projects are coming forward in the future months and years. And the whole point of the national infrastructure commission is, of course, to bring some oversight to the problem, ultimately with a view to helping the construction industry to retain skilled workers and to allowing investment and support and growth of our construction industry in Wales.

So, given the importance of the national infrastructure commission, would you agree with me that the resource allocated to support the work of the commission is too little? As I understand it, there is one Government official who's been seconded from Welsh Government to the commission. What are your plans to improve the situation, going forward?

Can I thank the Member for his question? I broadly agree with the important points that he made about funding cycles, and that's why we included, within the economic action plan, the pledge to move to a more sustainable and guaranteed round of funding cycles for not just infrastructure plans that are taken forward by Welsh Government, but also potentially for local authorities as well.

I think it's absolutely right to say that a constant pipeline of infrastructure projects needs to be developed in order to ensure that people are able to remain in work as they move from one project to the other. The National Infrastructure Commission for Wales takes a long-term view of the infrastructure needs for Wales and those that go beyond the five years of the national transport finance plan.

We're also in the process at the moment of refreshing the Wales transport strategy, which I'm sure will consider funding cycles and the nature of the sector at the moment. But, during the conversations that I will have with the national infrastructure commission, I will be raising the subject of resource allocation and then I'll make a decision on whether additional resource is required.

I'd like to thank you for your constructive answer in that regard, Minister. I am concerned that the Government has got here currently a very poor approach to long-term infrastructure planning and delivery. Of course, one example I've referred to is the M4 relief road. We've had money spent—public money; vast amounts of public money spent—and we're still waiting, of course, on a final decision.

If the construction and infrastructure sector is to have confidence in the Government's ability to plan and deliver new projects, going forward, and if businesses and communities throughout Wales are to have confidence in your Government's abilities, it's absolutely vital that you get the the national infrastructure commission up and running and properly resourced. We are now one year into that commission being in place, and if, for example, that commission were fully resourced, as I'm suggesting it isn't at the moment, then there may be a plan B in place if the M4 relief road is not to be built, because this is, of course, a real concern to the construction and infrastructure sector.

I would agree with the Member that the work of the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales is absolutely vital. The national transport finance plan gives some certainty over the immediate short-term funding allocations for infrastructure projects, but in terms of the longer term pipeline, it's the very reason why we established NICW to assess and to determine what's in the national interest, and then for the Welsh Government to plan and, in turn, to publish a longer term pipeline of investments. That's work that I intend to see through to completion, but it's fair to say that the initial work of the national infrastructure commission has largely focused on engagement and assessment.

I think it was right that the commission took time to meet with various stakeholders—an extensive list of stakeholders, it has to be said—and to assess which of the major infrastructure interventions the Government can make can offer the best outcomes, in particular in a rapidly changing world where we are addressing a climate emergency, where we are seeing new forms of power trains introduced into vehicles, where we are seeing new methods and modes of transport, and where we are seeing the very nature of transport shift from getting from A to B to actually being mobile and, whilst being mobile, being in a working position or in a leisure position.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth. 

Thank you, Llywydd. Minister, as I said in questions to the First Minister yesterday, celebrating 20 years of devolution is an opportunity to assess 20 years of our Assembly, our national Parliament, providing a voice for all, of course, and it’s an opportunity to look back at 20 years of the work of the Welsh Government. In terms of Plaid Cymru, we were in Government for four years, holding the economy brief, and I'm very proud of what my predecessor, Ieuan Wyn Jones, did, including pushing the ProAct and ReAct programmes that did so much at the time to mitigate some of the worst impacts of the financial crisis. But that’s four years out of 20—20 years that have been led by a Labour Government. So, how can you explain that the comparative wealth of Wales has fallen over the past 20 years under your leadership?

Let's just look at some of the broad and important facts that have affected the economy in the past 20 years, and how we have been able to steer the economy of Wales in a very different direction to that which was taken back in the 1980s and early 1990s. In the last 20 years, we've seen the number of people in Wales without qualifications reduce from more than one in three to fewer than one in five. As a consequence, we now have a lower employment inactivity rate than the UK average. Could we have imagined that in the 1990s when our rates were almost double the UK average? 

Today, we have 300,000 more people in work than we did in 1999, largely because of the interventions of the Welsh Labour Governments over those years. And perhaps one of the most successful programmes that we have been operating during devolution is a programme that was based on one that was introduced by the Gordon Brown Government at Westminster, but then subsequently canned by the Cameron Conservative Government, and that was Jobs Growth Wales. Jobs Growth Wales helped thousands upon thousands of young people avoid long-term unemployment.

During the period of 2010-15, you can compare parts of Wales with parts of England. There are parts of England during that period that saw long-term youth unemployment rise by 2,000 per cent. The figure here in Wales was less than 100 per cent, still way too high, but across swathes of England and Scotland, we saw long-term youth unemployment rise by hundreds if not thousands of per cent. We saved the hopes, the aspirations and the careers of thousands of young people after 2008, and right up to today we are still operating a very successful scheme that is giving hope and opportunity to many young people.    

And any statistic that points to a good story is to be welcomed. I must say there's an element of playing bingo this week. The stat of the week is economic inactivity rates. It was the one clearly used by the First Minister in his speech marking 20 years of devolution yesterday and it was used by the Brexit Minister on television last night, so it's clearly doing the rounds of the Labour briefings for this twentieth anniversary week. I congratulate you on digging out that stat that looks favourable. Basic unemployment levels is another one that's a favourite to be wheeled out and, do you know what? We can always celebrate, of course, every time somebody gets into employment, but those unemployment rates, again, they don't tell the full story. They don't tell half the story. We know that underemployment is still endemic and low wages are still endemic. We know that on the key areas of driving up wages and productivity, Labour continues to fail. Let's look at productivity quickly. Wales is down there at the bottom of the 12 UK countries and regions in gross value added per hour worked. We are always down there near the bottom under your leadership. Yes, there's been an improvement in GVA in Wales recently, but nowhere near enough to change Wales's place in the rankings. Why isn't Labour able to sort this out?

He talked about bingo this week; I'll give him the full house. Let's talk about GVA, shall we? There's this great figure that I can quote here. Since devolution, Wales has had the fifth highest increase in GVA per head compared to the 12 UK countries and English regions. Let's talk about gross value added per hour worked. Since 2011, which is the year, of course, that we returned to having just a Welsh Labour Government, Welsh productivity growth has been the highest of all UK countries and regions. I'll move on. Unemployment: the number of people in unemployment decreased by 31,000 during the course of the last 20 years. The figure between that, 270,000 in terms of activity of people who were not active back in 1999, but who we have been able to train up to get the skills to get into employment and to stay in employment as well. And it's worth just saying that the unemployment rate has decreased more quickly in Wales than in the UK since devolution. I think the statistic is something like 3.3 per cent down in Wales, compared to, across the UK, just 2 per cent.

Of course, underemployment is a key concern of the Welsh Government. It has to be. That must be the next great objective—to ensure that people are employed to the level that their skills enable them to be employed at and to ensure that they are receiving a fair wage for that work. That is why we established the Fair Work Commission. The Fair Work Commission has now reported. The Fair Work Commission has done excellent work in terms of assessing the future nature of work, and we'll be looking at each and every recommendation and the implementation of those recommendations, to ensure that we drive up the quality, the sustainability and the security and the remuneration of work in Wales.

To continue with the bingo analogy, if you like, I think it's eyes down for Welsh Government when we should be looking upwards. And the point that we are starting from on this journey means that we have to aim higher. You point to improved figures in Wales, but, as I pointed out, it's still not enough to move us up those rankings. We're still down there languishing at the bottom.

One of the big themes of the next 20 years of devolution, I have no doubt, will be the environment, and there'll be a major interaction between the environment and your brief of the economy and transport. I'll look at commuting, quickly. Commuting now takes longer than 20 years ago. Despite increasing environmental awareness, car traffic has increased by 12 per cent since 1999, outstripping population growth. Things aren't great moving forwards. The removal of the tolls on the Severn bridge has made traffic worse. I think the M4 black route would inevitably lead to more traffic. But I'm sensing an ambition in the Assembly as a body to take action. Time and time again we hear calls from my benches and from other benches for a real push forward in active travel. This Assembly has given Welsh Government a great piece of legislation to work from. Does the Minister, in that context, accept that, on the interaction between the environment and the economy and transport, there is a clear gap that still exists between the Assembly's desire to act and the Government's ability to?

Not at all, not at all. I completely reject that. And just going back to the very first point, the point that we need to look up: that's exactly what we in Welsh Government have been doing. That's why we've been able to achieve those staggering results in terms of lowering economic inactivity, improving job prospects, improving skills levels. And perhaps it's the party that the Member represents that should look up with a bit more ambition and, rather than completely and utterly on regular occasions criticising the Welsh Government for securing companies like Aston Martin, which are about the best that you can find in the automotive sector, those sorts of investments should be celebrated.

Now, in terms of the climate emergency, my department were already doing sterling work in terms of driving down the contribution that transport makes to our overall carbon footprint. We have some incredibly ambitious targets, including a zero-emitting bus and taxi fleet in the next 10 years. A hundred per cent of the electric that will be used on the core Valleys lines in the new franchise will be from renewable sources, and 50 per cent of that will be from Wales. We developed an economic action plan very much with decarbonisation at its heart; that is why decarbonisation is one of the four criteria of the economic contract. You will not secure funding from Welsh Government unless you're able to demonstrate how you're decarbonising your business. That is a huge commitment to make, and that shows why our department was, in many respects, ahead of the game.

But in terms of road projects and in terms of active travel, we've already allocated an additional £16 million for active travel. And in terms of road infrastructure, of course there will be many difficult decisions over many different roads that we are going to have to make as we respond to the climate emergency. I would invite all Members to reflect on this: the M4 relief road that is being promoted by the Welsh Government is a carbon-neutral road scheme over the course of its lifetime. Are all other proposed road schemes across Wales, in all parts of Wales, carbon neutral or are they worse? If they are worse, would those Members who support them stop promoting them?

UKIP spokesperson, David Rowlands.

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, I think it is true to say that university students are often portrayed in a negative way, but shouldn't we acknowledge that there are many areas where students from across the academic spectrum show initiative and drive, often outside their particular curriculum? It is therefore gratifying that Welsh students outperformed those in other parts of the UK with regard to setting up their own businesses. So, do you agree we should celebrate the fact that up to 13 per cent of Welsh students leave and set up their own businesses, and that this figure outstrips any other part of the UK?

I very much agree and celebrate the fact that Wales has a higher rate of graduate entrepreneurship in business start-ups than anywhere else. It's the highest rate in the UK—no other part of the UK has a higher rate—and that's largely down to the interventions that universities make, of course, and also working in partnership with Government—what we do, through, for example, Big Ideas Wales, which is designed to inspire young people when they're at school to be entrepreneurs and to own their own and operate their own business.

I thank the Minister for that. Some critics point out the fact that as much as 44 per cent of these start-ups end in failure and that would-be entrepreneurs attempt this route because they are unable to find suitable employment. But is it true to say that many businesses fail, which are not started by students, and we should also acknowledge that many things can be learned from failure? There are many reasons for the failure of a business, but probably the most frequent is poor market research and lack of capital. Whilst I acknowledge the Government has set up sources of advice and capital, especially through the Development Bank of Wales and Business Wales, are we doing enough to bring universities and these two institutions together, so that there is a greater knowledge of the help available to these budding entrepreneurs?

The Member raises a number of important points, first of all regarding economic intelligence and the role that the Development Bank of Wales has in this regard. It has an economic intelligence unit that's able to assess market trends and customer trends in a range of different environments and across different sectors. That sort of economic intelligence needs to be utilised, of course, by universities and by students within universities when they are considering starting their businesses, but equally, there is a role for Careers Wales. I was delighted at the start of this month to launch Working Wales, which is a consolidated advice service; it's essentially a single front door for anybody who's seeking career advice to be able to access expert and professional advice in a timely fashion. That can often, then, lead to a referral to Business Wales. So, we now have Careers Wales and Business Wales operating very much in tandem, dovetailing over entrepreneurship.

Business Wales has been incredibly successful in supporting business births in recent years, to the point now where we have a record number of businesses existing in Wales. We are preciously close now to having 260,000 businesses operating in Wales and we have a record number of businesses that are headquartered here in Wales. But the Member also makes the point about business death rates and the fear of failure. I do not believe that anybody starting a business should fear failure or, indeed, be embarrassed by failure. Failure is part of the learning process in life and that includes in business, and at the moment, the business death rate in Wales is something in the region of 10.4 per cent. Across the UK, the business death rate is 13.1 per cent. In order to have a dynamic economy, you also have to have churn within the economy, and for that reason, I would say to anybody who is considering starting a business, 'Do not fear failure, particularly on your first attempt', because many of the most successful businesspeople in our country have failed not just once, but on many occasions.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. The land at Parc Bryn Cegin is currently available for development and is being marketed via our commercial property agents, our property database and also by Gwynedd Council.

Thank you. Yesterday, it was very appropriate that we were celebrating establishing this Assembly 20 years ago. A number of people in my constituency place the blame on the Assembly for one of the big scandals of the time, namely that Parc Bryn Cegin, near Bangor, continues to be completely empty, with no jobs created. However, it's not the Assembly’s fault, but the fault of the Labour Government that has been in power in this place for 20 years.

The park now is one of three business hubs in the north Wales growth scheme, and I'm pleased about that, but will your Government give priority to attracting business and work of quality to this park? Millions of pounds were spent on the infrastructure, but there is nothing there in terms of work, jobs or businesses.

Well, the Member will be aware that Liberty Properties has been the preferred developer for a much-publicised cinema-led leisure development on the front plot for some time now. I'm pleased to say that Liberty are reporting that it still has strong interest from one cinema operator and from three to four restaurant operators, and that it's reviewing other leisure sector options to support the viability of the area and will present a revised project appraisal once it's been established and once the interest of the private sector has been fully appraised. I can assure the Member that my officials are working with Gwynedd Council to facilitate the delivery of a park-and-ride facility on an area of land that's not allocated for employment use, and the council has secured planning consent for that facility, which will make it far more attractive to develop the cinema-led project. 

In addition, under the north Wales growth deal, the economic ambition board have identified an outline business case for a land and property joint venture between the economic ambition board and this Welsh Labour Government, to increase the supply and delivery of sites, premises and housing in north Wales, and, of course, Parc Bryn Cegin is identified as one of the five early opportunities for potential development. And I look forward to the Member welcoming the success of the Welsh Labour Government in ensuring that jobs are created at that important site. We are considering business cases within the north Wales growth deal right now and we'll be responding to the economic ambition board by the end of this month.

In fact, it was 2015 when the Welsh Government appointed Liberty Properties Developments Ltd as developers for Bangor's Parc Bryn Cegin site. Last September, the former First Minister told this Assembly that

'The development land at Parc Bryn Cegin is available for development and is being actively marketed via our commercial property agents…on our property data base as well as Gwynedd Council.'

Strangely, the identical words you used in responding initially today. So, congratulations to the consistency of your briefers.

In January, The Bangor Aye stated, 

'It is now understood that Liberty are in discussions with Gwynedd council and the Welsh Government about new plans for the site.'

So, I wonder if you could expand upon what those new plans for the site are, and, responding to your comments about the inclusion within the growth vision for north Wales proposition document of the Parc Bryn Cegin strategic site project, what dialogue you're having not just with the north Wales economic ambition board, but with the north Wales business delivery group set up to support it, regarding the achievement of their aspirations to generate 250 indirect jobs, five large businesses and up to £12 million private sector leverage from the exploitation of this opportunity.

Well, I'd like to say Mark Isherwood makes a very important point towards the end of his question about the role of business groups in informing economic development in north Wales, and I've been at pains to stress to the economic ambition board the crucial role that the private sector has in shaping a truly transformational growth deal and one that is backed up by private sector investment, and one that is able to leverage in more private sector investment as well. And so, whether it be with regard to Parc Bryn Cegin or any other of the sites and premises, or any other of the projects within the north Wales growth deal, I think it's absolutely essential that the economic ambition board, the programme board and my officials engage with the private sector and with the employers who, potentially, will be occupying the site.

The Member references a meeting that took place in December 2018 that included councillors of Gwynedd Council and also officers of Gwynedd Council, where Liberty noted that, if permitted, the incorporation of a discount food retailer into its proposal in lieu of some restaurant units would improve the scheme's viability. That was rejected. However, Liberty, as I say, have recently reported that it still has strong interest from one cinema operator and a number of restaurant operators as well, and it's reviewing other leisure sector options to support the viability of the project.

Question 4 [OAQ53810] is withdrawn. Question 5—Mohammad Asghar.

The Welsh Government is supporting the development of a skilled workforce, including delivering 100,000 all-age apprenticeships this Assembly term. Our flexible skills programme is supporting businesses across Wales to upskill their workforce. We're working with the regional skills partnerships to ensure that skills provision in each region responds to business demand.

Thank you for the reply, Minister. The German vocational education training system combines both books and practical training embedded in a real-life work environment—it is called the dual system. In Germany, the Government does not pay employers to take on apprentices, but pays for equipment and the operation of vocational colleges. The companies who provide training contribute through larger shares of financing to dual training, which benefits both large companies and small and medium-sized enterprises. What study has the Minister made of the German system to see what lessons can be learned to improve skills training in Wales that better meets the needs of our Welsh employers?

Can I thank the Member for his question? I don't think there is a skills Minister that's served in this or any other Government since devolution that hasn't taken a keen interest in the German dual system and considered whether it could be transplanted from Germany to Wales. However, each and every skills Minister has concluded that we need to develop a system that's, okay, informed by the very best around the world, but one that doesn't necessarily replicate exactly any one single system. Indeed, the political theorist de Tocqueville warned against us simply trying to replicate cultures exactly as they are in different countries, because there are certain moeurs that cannot be transplanted from one country to another. Instead, you have to develop your own system that responds to your own distinct needs and the idiosyncrasies within your culture and society.

For our part, we now have an employability plan that responds to businesses' needs, but which reflects the individual needs of all people who access support. We also have a very strong apprenticeship system, one that is now—certainly compared to when I was at school—heavily promoted within schools and which truly gives people an opportunity to pursue the vocational route rather than the purely academic route. But in order to continue building a skills system that responds to the economy of today, we've developed regional skills partnerships across all of Wales to ensure that provision is based on what the economy requires, not just today, not just this month, this year, but three, five, 10 years down the line. And the work of the regional skills partnerships is, of course, informed by comprehensive labour-market intelligence and trends that, in turn, are drawn from various observatories. And I'm pleased that we commissioned Professor Phil Brown to undertake a comprehensive assessment of the role that digital and automation will play in changing the nature of work in the years to come. The work of that particular review will feed into all three of the regional skills partnerships, and, in turn, enhance our skills provision in Wales.

Minister, this April the Welsh Government announced a £3 million funding package for Food Skills Cymru, which will run until 2023, and over the first three years, this programme is expected to support 650 businesses. Minister, with the Welsh food and drink sector already generating £6.9 billion to the Welsh economy, isn't the Welsh Government investment a sign of the importance of improving skills and what that can do for the Welsh economy? And how will the Welsh Government continue to prioritise the ability to attract and retain a talented workforce and drive up skills within this industry?

Well, the Member makes a really important point about the economic value of the food and drink sector. I also think that food and drink have a—. They offer a powerful definition of the culture and character of a nation, and as we seek to promote Wales more distinctively overseas, I would expect the role of food and drink to only improve and increase, and I imagine that the work of both the Minister for rural affairs and the Minister for international relations will carefully consider the role that food and drink has in promoting the Welsh brand. Now, the food and drink sector in Wales has been identified as a sector of regional economic significance by all three of the regional skills partnerships, and they have, as I've already said, a key role in producing regional intelligence that is informed by employers, including employers from the food and drink sector.

Thank you. Yes, I visited Blaenau Gwent last week to meet with the council to discuss their priorities for the Valleys taskforce. I'm expecting them to submit proposals for Parc Bryn Bach though the Valleys regional park this week.

It's good to hear that the Minister has visited Blaenau Gwent and is pursuing the work that the Valleys taskforce has laid out in its objectives. He will be aware from our conversations that one of the disappointments I had as Minister for this area was that we weren't able to complete the work on a strategic economic plan for the Heads of the Valleys. He will be aware that the Bevan Foundation and others have demonstrated the need for a specifically tailored economic plan for the Heads of the Valleys, stretching from Hirwaun across to Brynmawr, and it is important, because there are particular issues that affect those communities. We also know that the dualling of the A465 is an economic tool to pursue and to create conditions for economic investment in those communities. I would be grateful if the Minister could update us on the work that he's undertaking in creating a plan for jobs and economic development in those communities in the Heads of the Valleys.

Thank you. I can assure my colleague that I'm continuing the work that he began to make sure that we make the most of the Heads of the Valleys road. I discussed this with the leader of the council last week, and I've been grateful to him for the conversations that we've had around it too. the work that he commissioned from the University of South Wales has reported, and it's been a valuable start. We've set up a working group as part of the taskforce to see if we can develop that further, and are now, through a working group, looking at further data to enhance that, and we will be developing a plan. Moreover, we are committed to looking in particular at the northern Valleys to see how we can address the conditions there, and I'm talking to council leaders about their views about not focusing all the money that we have allocated into the hubs, which predominantly sit in the southern part of the Valleys, and instead seeing how we can take a more thematic approach to allow councils themselves to address priority areas, to spread that funding right throughout the Valleys, not just in the hubs. And I'll be updating Members soon, I hope, with progress, once I finish meeting all of the council leaders.

Has the Minister seen the need to make any improvements at the Valleys taskforce since he took over as the Minister?

Well, we are certainly reviewing the work of the taskforce. My colleague Alun Davies published a delivery plan just before Christmas that captures the range of activities going on across Government in the Valleys taskforce area. As a result of that, a great deal of work has been taking place and progress is being made. So, for example, the work in developing the metro has been heavily informed by the strategic hub in Caerphilly, for example. There's now work going on with the council to create an integrated transport hub there that simply wouldn't have happened had it not been for the creation of the Valleys taskforce. As I said, we are looking to try and take a more thematic approach. As a result of that, we may well be looking to reshape some of the membership of the Valleys taskforce to make sure that we've got the right skills there to take that work forward. 

Yes, of course. For inner urban areas, integrated public transport is the key to promoting a modal shift from the personal car to more sustainable modes of transport and, of course, a reduction of carbon dioxide and nitrogen dioxide emissions. Our programme of reform seeks to increase public transport passenger numbers, as well as those walking and, of course, cycling.

I thank the Minister for that. Minister, yesterday at First Minister's questions, the First Minister referred to the setting up of a task and finish group to take forward a possible default 20 mph speed limit in urban areas in Wales, which I believe would deliver many benefits. Could you provide a little more detail of that new arrangement, Minister, in terms of the membership and the chairing of the task and finish group, its remit and also the timescale for its work and reporting arrangements? If you haven't got all the details to hand today, I'd appreciate it if you could write to me with those details.

Can I thank the Member for his question? I recognise that he was very delighted by the First Minister's announcement yesterday. I'm sure that the Deputy Minister will write to all Members with details of remit and the time frame of the work by the group, which is going to be chaired, Llywydd, by Phil Jones, who is highly regarded in this area and led on the design guidance work.FootnoteLink Meanwhile, we will go on helping local authorities to introduce 20 mph zones, and we will do so by allocating resource from our budgets. The Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport will be announcing funding for 20 mph schemes across Wales very shortly.

Well, I recently approved the consultation draft masterplan 2040 for Cardiff Airport, which clearly identifies opportunities to increase freight-related businesses. This is one of a number of opportunities to diversify the business base of the airport and to ensure its sustainability. My officials are working closely with Cardiff Airport to help deliver the draft masterplan 2040 ambitions. 

Minister, the airport has had a couple of setbacks recently—the Flybe announcement being the worst. I'm not sure that you would have heard that Peter Phillips, a former senior manager at Cardiff Airport and a former adviser to Brisbane and Amsterdam airports, has said that Cardiff Airport needs to develop its freight services and its business zone in response to the Flybe announcement. In terms of freight, he has stated that the UK template should be the East Midlands airport. So, are you looking at other airports to learn the best practice? Also, this is an important time for the airport, as there will shortly be a change in its leadership.

Yes, absolutely. I think the Member makes an important point. Peter Phillips makes a very important point as well. But I would just caveat any focus on freight with the very fact that you can't develop freight without having passengers as well. So, you have to develop passenger routes in order to ensure that freight can be carried as well. So, I would guard against any shift in focus towards solely freight, and instead suggest that the best way to grow the airport is to ensure that we grow passenger numbers, as well as opportunities for freight-related businesses.

Finally, question 9—Dawn Bowden.

Yes. I'm pleased to say that I've agreed the draft orders for this stage of the dualling to be made, which, when finished, will complete the dualling and unlock the full range of social and economic benefits to be delivered by this groundbreaking project.

Thank you for that response, Minister. I'd just refer you to the Welsh Government’s website, which states that:

'The width of the road restricts traffic flow and opportunities for safe overtaking. In many areas there is poor visibility. Accidents on this stretch are concentrated around junctions and areas with poor visibility.’

So, I’m sure that you will agree with me that we do need to press on with the improvements to sections 5 and 6, and these improvements have been long anticipated by my constituents. So, do you agree that the completion of the Heads of the Valleys road is a vital and strategic component of our long-term plans to help uplift the Valleys communities? And can you confirm that, notwithstanding the ongoing delays on the Brynmawr-Gilwern stretch, completing sections 5 and 6 remains a Government priority and that construction will be commencing without undue delay?

Yes, I can assure the Member that the scheme has my full support. As I say, I’ve already approved the draft orders. All being well, construction will begin in 2020 and will be completed by 2023, and we’ll be seeking to exploit every benefit we can from this important investment that amounts to approximately £900 million for the Heads of the Valleys communities.

Thank you, Minister.

The next item, therefore, is questions to the Brexit Minister, the first question is from Mike Hedges.

I've had no discussions about waste incineration post Brexit, as this has not arisen specifically in Brexit discussions. The Welsh Government is committed to upholding environmental standards after we leave the European Union, and, whilst I have not had specific discussions on waste incineration, we have made preparations to ensure legislation, including the relevant regulations, remains in place after Brexit.

Thank you, Counsel General, for your answer. I’m asking this question as someone who is a long-term opponent of non-medical waste incineration. Does the Counsel General agree with me on the importance of the directive and how important it is that we keep it and that it is complied with? Although, I must add that I would much prefer a moratorium on non-medical waste incineration.

Well, the Member will know that the focus of Government policy on recycling and the target for recycling has the effect of minimising the use of waste in any other context.

In relation to the impact of Brexit on this area, as part of the legislative preparations for a potential ‘no deal’ exit, the Member will know that corrective legislation has been put in place, and that includes legislation to ensure that the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2016 continue to be operable in a ‘no deal’ scenario.

In relation to future development of policy in a post-Brexit environment in relation to this particular policy area, there are discussions ongoing between the four administrations on how they will work together in relation to this particular area after the UK leaves the European Union.

Over £80 million of EU funding has been committed to community enterprises and third sector organisations through the Welsh European Funding Office as part of the current EU structural funds programmes.

The Senghenydd Youth Drop In Centre in my constituency has applied for a piece of that funding. I’ve made the Minister aware of it through written communication. SYDIC is a community-based enterprise that runs a drop-in for young people in the Senghenydd area and is incredibly valuable in my constituency. They’ve currently got land for a green energy project and have planning permission to develop a wind turbine on the land. They found it difficult to proceed, and were denied the ability to proceed, with a WEFO funding grant for that community wind turbine because of the rather rigid criteria that we have for those kinds of applications. I know the Minister, and I fully appreciate that the Minister, can’t make any specific comments about individual applications, but, with this experience in mind, would he commit to considering how we can learn from the SYDIC experience in order to make community-based green applications more successful with WEFO in future?

Well, I thank the Member for that supplementary. Obviously, I am aware of the project in his constituency based on the correspondence that we have had. He's acknowledged I can't make specific comment on that, and in fact that those decisions are made by WEFO, not by Welsh Ministers. There has been a large number of successful projects that have gone to community and third sector organisations, and including capacity-building initiatives in order to encourage further successful applications from the third sector. I met recently with the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, for example, to talk about their interest and their role as an intermediary body in supporting WEFO in administering EU funds.

In relation to the particular point that he makes about further enhancing the role of community organisations as beneficiaries of EU funds, certainly that is something we would wish to see, and, in relation to the particular project in his constituency, I would encourage the organisation to make contact with officials to discuss the particular project.

Minister—Counsel General, I should say—Hefin David, the Member for Caerphilly, has made an important point, I think, about the potential in future—whilst recognising that WEFO fund has been incredibly important to community-based projects in the past, there is the potential now to make the new structure more suited to both your area, Hefin, and my area, to better support environmental projects. We know that we are, as Welsh Government has said, in a climate change emergency, so what discussions have you had with the Minister responsible for energy to make sure that, in the future, whatever structure—I know we're in early days yet—does replace the existing funding that Wales has had for these types of projects, that environmental projects and renewable energy are at the heart of that, so that Wales can really take a lead within the UK and make sure we are the most environmentally beneficial part of the UK?

Well, both the Member's question and that of Hefin David has at its heart that question of ensuring that the Welsh Government priority to ensure community involvement in local renewable projects is enhanced, and that remains a priority for the Welsh Government, needless to say. In relation to future schemes, we obviously wish to ensure that we have access to the same level of funding, and that decisions can continue to be made by the Welsh Government in relation to regional funding here in Wales. The reason that's important is because they can then reflect the priorities of the Welsh Government going forward into the future, including the priority that he and Hefin David mentioned in your questions. But, in order for that to happen, we do need to see clear action on the part of the UK Government to live up to the commitments made by the Prime Minister to ensure that we do not suffer a loss of funding and that the devolution settlement is respected. That has not yet come to pass, and I very much hope that he will join me in calling on the UK Government to make good their promises in that area.

Now, questions from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Diolch, Llywydd. Does the Minister agree that the funding cuts imposed by Westminster since 2010 have caused untold misery to individuals and communities across Wales?

Yes, we are within a period of austerity. Those cuts made by the UK Government have been felt in the lives of the people of Wales, as they have in the lives of people across the UK. We have sought, as a Government, to ameliorate that as far as possible by making different judgments with diminishing budgets, but we know that the impact of austerity on many of our communities will have been a factor in the decisions made in 2016 in relation to the Brexit referendum.

The Minister has stated his view about the damage caused to society by spending cuts, and I agree with the substance of his answer, so let's consider the issue of public spending in the context of Brexit. The UK Government impact analysis released last year projected that UK growth would suffer a hit of between 2 and 8 per cent were Brexit to go ahead, depending on the kind of economic deal agreed between the UK and EU. The lower half of this projection is based on continued UK membership of the EU single market, which Welsh Government does not support. So, Welsh Government is in effect advocating a policy that would lead to a deterioration of at least over 2 per cent to growth, probably a lot more. When you add this to the effect on specific sectors within Wales, on businesses that rely on trade with the EU for their profitability, and the knock-on effect tariff- and non-tariff barriers would have on jobs and working conditions, the impact on the Welsh economy would be substantial and severe. Minister, do you agree that leaving the EU would exacerbate the effects of austerity in Wales?

Well, the Member rightly highlights the UK Government's own economic analysis, which demonstrates significant damage to the Welsh economy, as to the UK economy at large. We have been clear that our view as a Government is that the Welsh economy is best protected as part of the European Union, but the policy described in 'Securing Wales' Future', which describes the kind of post-Brexit relationship with the European Union that we feel respects the 2016 referendum, but also does the least damage to the Welsh economy—a policy that was agreed with her party—remains our view of the best kind of Brexit for Wales if we are to leave the European Union. 

Minister, the sort of deal that Labour is advocating would mean leaving the European single market and customs union, and this would cause untold damage to the UK economy, leading to further reductions in the Welsh Government's budgets, and it would damage the Welsh economy directly, leading to the closure of businesses and the loss of jobs. And it's not just Plaid Cymru saying this; Welsh Labour MPs Owen Smith, Tonia Antoniazzi and Anna McMorrin agree, and Welsh Labour AMs Alun Davies, Lynne Neagle and Vaughan Gething agree. And last night, in his speech to mark the twentieth anniversary of devolution, the First Minister said that cuts to public finances were directly related to an increase in child poverty, the use of food banks and homelessness in Wales.

Your Government seems determined to prioritise party political expediency over protecting the welfare of the most vulnerable people in society by supporting Jeremy Corbyn's decision to enter into talks with the Tories over a possible Brexit deal. Shouldn't your Welsh Labour Government be defending Welsh economic interests by taking all possible steps to stay in the EU, rather than supporting Mr Corbyn, who is in talks to help the Conservatives to implement their hard Brexit policy?

And, finally, let me turn now to the only way this catastrophe can be avoided, which is, of course, giving the people the opportunity to step back from the brink by holding a people's vote with an option to remain. Last week, the First Minister stated that the Welsh Government policy on a people's vote was, and I quote, that

'if the UK Parliament cannot unite around an alternative proposition that includes participation in the single market and a customs union, then the only option that remains is to give the decision back to the people.'

Since then, the Labour Party has announced its policy for the European election, which includes an extra caveat, namely that they would seek to force a general election before supporting a referendum if no Brexit deal is agreed. Minister—and I would ask you please to answer this question directly because I've noticed in the past you've answered questions on issues that we agree on in commendably meticulous detail, but you have sometimes overlooked questions that might perhaps make you a little uncomfortable—is it now Welsh Government policy to seek a general election ahead of a people's vote if a Brexit deal acceptable to the Labour Party is not agreed?

Well, I thank the Member for her advice on how to answer the questions. I think perhaps sometimes it's easy to lose track of the number of questions in any particular response. But I will do my best to answer the key questions at least. In relation to her description of the Welsh Government's position, which remains, as I will say again, as described in the policy document agreed with her party, it is not a question of being outside a customs union. We have called for a permanent custom's union with the European Union and close alignment to the single market. So, I just wish to clarify that misunderstanding. And I do reject the point about party political expediency. There are difficult judgments to be made in reconciling the response that the British public gave in 2016 with what we understand in this place, on these benches, and on her party's benches, I know, to be the damage caused to the Welsh economy as a consequence of Brexit. What we have judged to be the best way to reconcile that is as described in 'Securing Wales' Future'. If we are not able to achieve something that reflects the principles in that document, then our policy remains, as it has been, and endorsed by this Assembly on at least two separate occasions, that a people's vote is an alternative means of resolving the situation. We have, in fact, called on the UK Government to take steps to prepare for that eventuality, and I most recently raised that directly with David Lidington in my conversation with him of 11 April. 

Conservative spokesperson, Darren Millar.

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, can you give us an update on the steering committee that was established to look at the delivery mechanisms for future structural funds?

Yes. That has been meeting under the chairmanship of Huw Irranca-Davies. The objective is to advise the Welsh Government on how, in future, we can deploy regional investment in Wales, learning from the experience of using those funds during our time as members of the European Union, and to find a means of aligning that with the sectors that have benefited across Wales, and to do that in a way that is innovative and provides new and fresh ideas as to how we could do that.

I'm grateful for the update. I note that the membership of this steering committee is not in the public domain. I don't know who the other members are and I think it would be very useful if the Welsh Government could share that information with Members, to ensure that it is a properly representative committee that will seriously look at the failings of the previous use of structural funds in Wales, which, of course, have failed to deliver the sea change to our economy that you, your Government, previous Governments, had promised in terms of the use of structural funds. Do you accept that previous structural funds were squandered, in many respects, by the Welsh Government? Do you accept that there's some responsibility on the Welsh Government for the failure to use those funds to boost our Welsh economy, particularly given that our gross value added, our productivity and our wages are behind many other parts of the UK, and we remain one of the poorest nations—certainly in west Wales and the valleys—of all of Europe?

I don't accept that at all. I think you will have heard the exchanges earlier in the Chamber on the benefits that have accrued to people in Wales in terms of skills enhancements, in terms of productivity, over the last decades. I think that the Member's efforts could be better focused in seeking to persuade his friends in Westminster to live up to their commitment to ensure that Wales doesn't suffer a penny lost or a power lost as a consequence of leaving the European Union. We are waiting for those commitments, they have not been lived up to, and it's about time that they should be.

I'm here to ask questions of this Government that serves the people of Wales. And I think that it's very important that people recognise the failures of your Government, and previous administrations, to properly manage the European funds that were at their disposal. We've gone backwards in terms of our wage growth when compared to—as a proportion—other parts of the UK. And I find it pretty appalling, frankly, that you're not prepared to acknowledge the failures in a way that other Labour backbenchers, and Ministers previously, have acknowledged in terms of the way that those funds have been spent.

Can I ask you a question in terms of the way that your Government hopes to distribute those funds? You will be aware that the UK Government is keen to establish a shared prosperity fund, that those funds will be available to Wales, and that there are many parts of Wales that are not able to benefit from the current European structural funds that would likely be able to benefit under different arrangements through a UK shared prosperity fund. Do you accept that many people don't trust the Welsh Government to distribute funds in Wales, given the way that you carve up local government settlements, given the way that you carve up other funding, and seem to distribute it in places according to your political preferences, rather than those places that actually need the sort of investment that is actually available?

And can you tell us what the timetable for the work of this steering committee that has been established actually is, in terms of the recommendations that it might make, and whether you will put in the public domain all of the minutes of those meetings, who attends them, and precisely the agenda that those meetings have going forward? Because I think many people will want to see the range of activity that is being undertaken by the Welsh Government in order to look at how you might manage structural funds in the future, given the failures of the past.

Well, I reject the outrageous allegations the Member just made in the Chamber. I think that the allegations of mismanagement are completely inappropriate—completely inappropriate. The opportunity that the work of the steering group represents, and indeed the work of the commission that's been given to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, is to seek the best possible input into how these policies are devised in future. The Welsh Government allocates this money at an arm's length through Welsh European Funding Office, as he will very well know. And so the particular points that he makes are completely unacceptable and inappropriate.

Looking forward, there is an opportunity to look at how we manage regional investment in Wales in a way that enables them to be better aligned with priorities that we have in Wales, better aligned with investment that Welsh Government might make through other sources and, indeed, that local government might make through other sources across Wales. All of those are significant prizes, if we can devise the right way forward.

But, again, I would say to him that, if he thinks that the solution to this is a UK-Government-managed fund, he needs to look at the failures of the UK Government in its work in Wales over the last few years. And if he thinks that people don't trust the Welsh Government to manage these funds—I think he's being very, very optimistic if he thinks that anybody in Wales might trust the UK Government to manage these funds better.

I thank the Member for the question. As I said last week, we have called on the UK Government, whose responsibility this is, to prepare for a potential referendum if it is to break the logjam. The First Minister has also written to the Permanent Secretary to ask what the Welsh Government could do to facilitate this.

In the past, Plaid Cymru and Labour have worked hand-in-hand. That is how we have won referenda in the past. Given recent developments, are you and the Welsh Government willing to put party politics to one side so that we can work together once again—work together in order to push the UK Government to hold a referendum in order to give the final word to the people? We are willing to work with you on this issue. Are you willing to work with us?

I’m grateful to the Member for being clear that there is a desire to co-operate. I agree with her that co-operating on 'Securing Wales' Future' has been something that was very important in showing the way forward in that context. It appears now that the policy of your party has changed in that context. From our perspective, if that’s possible, that can help us to solve the problem. But if not, there will be a need for a referendum to do so.

As I said to the Member in my response to the earlier question, it’s also important, in terms of the time that’s left, that specific steps are taken to ensure that this is an option—that the question of a referendum is an option—if there’s a need for this. In terms of co-operation, as a party we’re always very happy and see a value in co-operation.

Last week, Labour's ruling body rejected calls for the party to commit to a second EU referendum, with some senior Labour figures counselling that the alternative would have forfeited leave-supporting Labour areas, but with others having since quit the Labour Party because of Mr Corbyn's failure to support a second referendum—a situation, may I say, that other parties may be familiar with also in reverse. How, therefore, do you respond to those who are saying that the EU elections, which we now know are going ahead on 23 May, will in effect be a second referendum?

I thank you for pointing out the discussions leading to the decisions of the national executive committee in my party. You mentioned differences of opinions there—I think that's pretty bold, given the disarray of the Conservative Government at any opportunity in Parliament over the last few weeks and months to maintain any semblance of unity in relation to all of these fundamental questions.

We will be engaging in these elections, reminding people of the benefits that membership of the European Union has had for Wales. I think the lesson for us here is that we should all, in this place, recognise the value that Wales has derived from membership of the European Union, reflecting the answers I gave a moment ago. I think any relationship with the European Union short of that is less good for Wales than membership. I think we will take the opportunity, in the coming weeks, of reminding people of the advantages that we have had as members of the European Union.

As the First Minister explained to you yesterday, we published in 'Securing Wales' Future' a clear policy that recognised the results of the referendum by setting out a blueprint for our future relationship with the European Union, which protects the interests of Wales consistent with being outside the European Union.

He did indeed, but 'Securing Wales' Future' doesn't say anything about having a second referendum. Indeed, it says that you respect the result of the referendum. It's only since then that you have changed your policy. I just wonder whether the Minister and his party may have overreached themselves. We are seeing election materials going around from Labour describing the party as the biggest 'remain' party to stop Brexit. A Labour MEP who's standing, Paul Brannen, said yesterday Labour has stopped Brexit happening three times so far. Is that the basis on which Labour are appealing for support in two weeks' time?

I would say that the broader narrative about people not respecting the referendum is part of a very troubling and damaging broader narrative of betrayal. I would just say to the Member, it doesn't reflect well on any of us in this place to be feeding that narrative. We are in a time when the role of politicians is not to stoke that up; it is to recognise what we have failed to recognise and led to the 2016 referendum, which is these judgments are difficult judgments and they have real consequences in the lives of individuals. There are politicians in this place and in Westminster wrestling with how to reconcile the referendum of 2016 with a set of relationships with the European Union that do least damage to the people of Wales and the UK, and I'd encourage him to participate in that debate rather than to seek to score political points. 

Welsh Government is working closely with local government directly and through the Welsh Local Government Association to help authorities plan to mitigate and respond to the damaging impacts of a 'no deal' Brexit. The Government strongly believes that the United Kingdom should not leave the European Union without a deal.

Thank you. In February, the auditor general issued a report about preparations in Wales for a 'no deal' Brexit, and this highlighted the fact that structures, processes and the amount of preparation varied greatly across the local government sector in Wales. Whilst I do appreciate the work undertaken by the WLGA, will you state what action you are taking as the Brexit Minister to ensure that local authorities do have a consistent and adequate approach in preparation for whatever kind of Brexit we actually ultimately end up with?

I thank the Member for that question. We welcomed the report from the Wales Audit Office, as she will know. We felt it was a recognition that there were significant amounts of work happening across public services in Wales to deal with the unwelcome consequences of leaving the European Union. She's right to say there was at that point, in the report, a reference to variability across public services, although I think the evidence taken, which underlay that report, was from a few months before that. But she's recognised in her question the work we've done with the WLGA to enable best practice to be shared across local authorities.

We've also made available, in response to a request from local authorities in Wales, additional funding to build capacity in order to ensure that there's a staffing resource, if you like, in local authorities to co-ordinate and lead the operational work local authorities are doing. We've made available £1.2 million from the EU transition fund in order to support that work. There is a very high level of engagement with local authorities through the local government EU preparedness advisory panel and through the partnership council, which enables those opportunities to share best practice.

I know that, when local authority cabinets have looked at how they can assess their own readiness, they have looked to the experiences of other councils when they've undertaken their own analysis, so that they've learnt from that best practice. I think there was an example recently—I think I'm right in saying—in Torfaen, of them doing exactly that and using that as a tool for assessing their own readiness.

The Welsh Government has taken, I think, quite a responsible and diligent approach to preparing for a 'no deal', but this hasn't been without some real direct costs to date, but also some real indirect costs from diverting resources from other priorities. However, this is as nothing to the cost of actually leaving on a 'no deal' and the lasting damage that will do to jobs in our local authority areas, to local economies, public services and, I have to say, to community cohesion, as the impacts of a 'no deal' rip through our neighbourhoods for years to come. So, does the Minister agree that it is, indeed, imperative that the Conservative Government in Westminster now does all it possibly can to avoid a 'no deal' and certainly does not waste the months ahead to the autumn in bringing us back to the cliff edge once again? History will not be forgiving if the interests of party are placed before the interests of the country at this critical moment in time. 

Well, I endorse entirely the sentiments in the Member's question. He, I think rightly, reminds us that there is a very real possibility that 31 October becomes a deferred cliff edge unless action is taken in the meantime. And there has been a significant amount of resource, both financial and time, and actually the opportunity costs that that imposes, which Governments across the UK have necessarily in the circumstances had to take. As I've said before, that is the action of a responsible Government in this place, to take those steps. However, we do recognise, clearly, we would have preferred not to be in a position where we had to do that. As we stand here today, we are seeking to balance our ongoing commitment to making sure that we are taking those steps to ensure as best we can that Wales is prepared with the fact that we have to be clear that the use of resources is proportionate to that work. So, we will be taking the next few weeks to undertake a lessons-learned analysis of steps taken up until the exit day—well, the proposed exit day—of 29 March, so that we understand what we can do better in the coming weeks and months. 

There is, however, a risk, I think, that we now look at the next six months and think, 'Well, this is way down the track.' We're already seven weeks or so into that seven-month delay. We might get to the summer recess without a resolution, we will then lose time over the summer, and we run the risk of being back in mid September when we have six weeks to the new deadline. So, I would just encourage people to reflect on that. And I agree with him that energies now must be directed at finding a resolution to this. 

Direct business engagement is ongoing with companies on supply chain issues. We have also commissioned research to further understand the complex European and global supply chains operated by businesses in Wales. 

I thank the Minister for his answer. Since the 2016 referendum, the automotive sector in the UK has announced a number of closures. The debate about to what extent Brexit is to blame rages on, but, in the meantime, people have genuine concerns about their jobs. The closure of the Honda plant in Swindon worries me greatly, since one of its component suppliers is the Kasai plant in Merthyr Tydfil, in my region, which employs 200 people. It's one of 12 Welsh suppliers that face grave risks in the face of the closure of that one plant in Swindon, and follows on from the news that 400 voluntary redundancies are expected at Ford in Bridgend and 220 jobs are on the line due to the closure of the Schaeffler plant in Llanelli. What action is Welsh Government taking to support component suppliers to keep afloat during this difficult time for the automotive industry, and what assurances can the Minister give workers within the sector that your Government is doing everything in their power to protect their jobs?

Well, I thank the Member for that important question. Her question reflects the fact that, whereas decisions may be taken in other parts of the UK—she mentioned Honda; previously Nissan, of course—the impacts of that can be felt in Wales and indeed in other parts of the UK. We've absolutely, as a Government, made representations to the UK Government in the context of their UK-wide planning to ensure that dimension is not lost in the considerations and that economic decisions taken in England have consequences way beyond that. There are a number of businesses in Wales, and she mentioned one in her question, that have a significant exposure in terms of supply chain to production facilities based in other parts of the UK.

The Welsh Government is working with the Wales automotive forum to discuss and understand the impact of Brexit, and in particular the impact of a 'no deal' Brexit. It's clear that there are a number of pressures that are currently at play in decisions taken by automotive companies across Wales, but Brexit certainly is one of those, and a significant one, I would argue, and the Welsh Government is taking steps to ensure that those companies have access to Welsh Government support. Part of the work that has been put in place is a range of tiger teams on a rapid response basis, which enables the Welsh Government to provide support in a way that is both tailored and rapidly available to companies that face difficult circumstances. 

Minister, this is a very important question. Tri-Wall Europe, a big employer in Monmouth in my constituency, a company that makes cardboard packaging for the motor industry and for many other industries as well, is headquartered in the far east but uses its base in Monmouth to supply all over Europe. In the previous Assembly, the then Minister for economy said after a visit to Tri-Wall that she was hoping to map and better understand the supply chains feeding that company, both in Wales and across Europe. I wonder has any work been done on that mapping process of supply and distribution chains, because this is clearly—. It's very important that we get this right in any Brexit deal and that those supply chains are at the heart of any deal. So, I'm just wondering what evidence, what information the Welsh Government currently has at its disposal to make sure that, in those negotiations, when you're making an input into the UK Government that's at the table, the interests of companies like Tri-Wall and other similar companies across Wales really are at the heart of these negotiations.   

Yes, I thank the Member for that question. I don't know, beyond the context of Brexit, the historical context of that, but he'll know of the work by Cardiff Business School that is being supplemented at the moment in relation to some of the issues identified in his question. We've also made available funding through the EU transition fund to support research projects, to understand with a greater degree of granularity some of the dimensions of supply chains, which are particularly complex. He mentions an international supply chain, I think, in his question, if I've understood correctly, but one of the significant issues that we face in Wales—one of the features, if you like, of our economy—is the intra-UK supply chains, which also require us to have an understanding with some granularity of the impact of Brexit on those, and that research will be eliciting some of that detail. 

Question 7 [OAQ53802] has been withdrawn. So, question 8, Helen Mary Jones. 

I thank the Member for her question. The Minister for Health and Social Services and I are in regular and frequent contact, as is the case with all Ministers, to discuss the Welsh Government's responses to the range of distinct and unwelcome challenges that Brexit poses to Wales.

I'm grateful to the Counsel General for his response. Of course, there are many of us here that are hoping that this will not be a situation that we have to face, but, given that it may be, we now do have some further months, as you said in your response to Huw Irranca-Davies, to try to prepare for what the worst-case scenario might be. I wonder if, in discussion with the Minister for Health and Social Services, the Counsel General will take this opportunity to take a further look at the workforce issues in Wales that may arise, particularly in the health service and in care services if people either feel unable to remain or feel unwelcome as citizens of the EU, and of course, looking forward, particularly care services may not be able to recruit any longer as effectively as they have in the past from the EU. Whatever we think about this delay, it does at least give us some time to look at what those gaps are likely to be and to begin to take some steps to support health and care bodies in trying to meet those gaps if it comes to it.   

I thank the Member for her supplementary. I think she hits the nail on the head. Our health services and our care services, perhaps in particular, depend on EU citizens to provide an essential service, often to very vulnerable individuals. She will know, I know, of the work that we've been doing to understand the dimensions of that. We've identified, and I've mentioned in the Chamber previously, that there is a particular issue around registered nurses in social care, where the numbers of those who are EU citizens are very considerable and higher than in the workforce in general. 

We will be ensuring that we understand and provide support in relation to the workforce in the health and social care services generally. I know the Minister is very focused on that. It's important for the Government at large, and we are looking at what cross-cutting work the Government can do to understand the impact that decisions elsewhere can have as well on some of these workforce questions in our health and social care services. I will also say that I think that there are other dimensions that come from the question of a time delay, which we also will be looking at, so that interventions that might be appropriate in looking to a March departure need to be revisited to see if they're appropriate in the context of a potential October departure. So, all of these dimensions are certainly ones that are currently live and under consideration by the Government.

And finally, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Llywydd. Our health staff are the cornerstone of our NHS, many of these originating from the European Union. In Wales, 4 per cent of GPs and 15 per cent of dentists gain their primary medical qualification in the European Economic Area. According to the report entitled, 'The Public Health Implications of Brexit in Wales: A Health Impact Assessment Approach', Brexit creates a positive potential to attract skilled workers into key sectors to Wales from within the UK and non-EU nations. Counsel General, in addition to reassuring EU nationals that they are valued and still required in Wales, will you state what action the Welsh Government is taking to attract medical professionals from non-EU nations?

We—. I'm not quite sure where to start with that, really. We've been absolutely clear, and I wish that she and Members in her party would be slightly clearer than perhaps you have been, on this issue of how important it is for our health and care services to continue to be able to rely on the services of very valued employees and workers who are from the European Union. We've taken particular steps—she mentions qualifications in her question—to ensure that those qualifications continue to be recognised and respected here in Wales and across the UK. She describes Brexit as an opportunity. I'm afraid to say that, in this particular context, I think that is probably one of the more bizarre reflections. I think Brexit is a threat to the workforces in these places across Wales, and it is incumbent on us all in this place to remind EU citizens working in our public services across Wales that they are valued and welcomed and that they continue to be valued and welcomed in the coming months and years.

Thank you to the Counsel General.

No topical questions were selected.

And therefore, the next item is 90-second statements. Siân Gwenllian.

Thank you, Llywydd. Last week, the funeral of Llywelyn Williams from Llanrug in my constituency was held. He was a bright, intelligent, young man. His loss is a loss to Wales, to Arfon and his community, but mainly, of course, to his family. He attended Ysgol Gynradd Llanrug and then Ysgol Uwchradd Brynrefail, before studying a degree course in Aberystwyth in politics and history. He was awarded a musical scholarship to attend university and, there, he was a loyal member of its orchestra. Whilst at Aberystwyth University, he was an enthusiastic member of the Welsh societies and was one of the founders of Yr Heriwr student newspaper. He was a diligent worker with the college branch of Plaid Cymru, working closely with the local Plaid Cymru branch in Aberystwyth. According to Llew's family, one of the highlights of his politics course was the opportunity to go on work experience to Parliament in London with MPs Elfyn Llwyd and Hywel Williams. There, he developed the enthusiasm and confidence to seek a career in politics and to serve his local community.

After his time in Aber, he moved back to Llanrug to work with Anglesey council, but, unfortunately, within just a few months, he was taken ill and required surgery at Walton hospital in Liverpool. Over the last three and a half years, he continued to be positive and enthusiastic, rekindling his musical interests with local brass bands and Dyffryn Peris choir. He worked diligently within his community as a community councillor and through Plaid committees and as a school governor at Ysgol Gynradd Llanrug. He was positive and strong, fighting till the end, despite his illness. We will remember Llew as a gentle and decent person. He was enthusiastic to see the success of others and a Welshman to the core. We send our sincerest condolences to his family and friends at this sad and difficult time.

The Tredegar House Folk Festival is among the highlights in Newport's cultural calendar. This weekend, the three-day festival is celebrating its thirtieth anniversary. During that time, hundreds of musicians, singers and dancers have gathered in Newport from all over the world. More than ever, this year's event will be a real celebration of the power of music to bring people together. There's something special about combining Welsh cultural heritage with the traditions and histories of countries from all corners of the globe. As well as visiting groups, recent winners of the BBC Radio Wales folk awards are among the line-up. There will be ceilidhs, workshops, dance and music sessions. It's wonderful to see people of all ages embracing such a variety of performances and styles. There's always something new and different to enjoy. I'm proud to have been asked to take up the role of president of the folk festival, succeeding Paul Flynn, who was an unwavering and avid supporter. Stephen Lyons and the annual organisers have again planned a fantastic programme. As ever, their commitment and hard work has created a real showcase of our rich culture. Together with many volunteer stewards, their dedication ensures that visitors keep coming back year after year. Excitement is building for this special anniversary year, and I look forward to seeing how the festival will continue to grow over the next 30 years. 

The next item is the motion on committee membership, and I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion formally. Rhun ap Iorwerth. 

Formally move.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. 

That brings us to the Welsh Conservative debate on e-sports. I call on David Melding to move the motion.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I'm very pleased to open this Welsh Conservative debate on a topic that—I think it's fair to say—is making its debut in the National Assembly. It's a topic that's very fresh and exciting in my opinion, and which has the potential for substantial growth in Wales if it's given the recognition and the attention that its success to date warrants.

Around the world, countries are embracing the phenomenon of e-sports and competitive gaming, despite a lingering stigma, and it is in these countries that we see most progress, capitalising on the sector's huge economic benefits, whilst also giving young people further opportunities to engage in competitive team-based activities. Simultaneously, the benefits of this industry are that it also encourages people to embrace many of the core digital and technological skills that are becoming so important in our modern, digital world.

Five years ago, you couldn't have imagined video-game competitions being broadcast on the same channel as traditional sports, but times are changing. Thanks to the massive popularity of e-sports, driven in large part by the internet-streaming generation, the entertainment landscape has transformed drastically over the past couple of years. 

Now, e-sports have been around for as long as the video-game industry itself, and collectively refer to competitive video-game play by professional and amateur gamers. Back in the early 1990s, it existed simply through a group of friends sitting around a Sega Mega Drive or Nintendo 64 console. But in recent years, growth in the gaming audience and player engagement has elevated e-sports into mainstream culture as a legitimate professional sport with a massive global following. We've all heard of the League of Legends, Call of Duty, FIFA and Halo 5. In 2018, Goldman Sachs estimated that the global monthly audience for e-sports is 167 million people, and that by 2022, it's estimated the audience will reach 276 million, or to put it in perspective, similar in size to the US NFL today. Other estimates claim that e-sports has $900 million of annual revenue—that's the revenue of the sport—and 380 million viewers globally. So, we can see the scale of the industry by whatever measure we choose to take, and there is some dispute just about its current size because it is growing so quickly.

The potential, Deputy Presiding Officer, is clearly vast, yet Wales is yet to play its full role or the role it is capable of performing, despite some commendable activity, which I'm sure the Minister will refer to later. But this is an industry that is yet to really take off, and if we get in there now and really capture these trends, then we can be a real leader.

Other UK cities are capitalising on the industry's potential with both Birmingham and London, for instance, hosting major competitive gaming tournaments this year that are expected to draw crowds of 21,000 and 30,000 respectively. It's astonishing the level of spectator interest in these competitions. Imagine the impact that this could have on local economies and business in Wales if we were drawing on these spectators and seeing them come from all around the world, potentially. I just think, to put this in historical terms, in the late nineteenth century, I'm sure there were many stick-in-the-muds who said, 'Oh, these new recently regularised sports of rugby, cricket and football, it's just a fad and we shouldn't be building stadia for 30,000, 40,000 people because we won't know what to do with these places in 10 years—we'll be growing potatoes there.' But happily, we did not take that attitude and we captured the enthusiasm that the late Victorians and Edwardians had for spectator sports. It's been a massive part of our culture and our economy as a result.

Indeed, the world of e-sports and traditional physical sports is now converging. There are many examples of sports teams getting involved in the e-sports, including Paris Saint-Germain, Manchester City, West Ham United, AS Roma and Formula 1 brands like McLaren, to name just a few. And, indeed, there are initiatives like the ePremier League that will launch later this year—a FIFA e-sports tournament featuring Premier League clubs playing virtually against one another—and the Formula 1 Esports Series, the champion of which, at the moment, is the British e-sports professional Brendon Leigh.

The International Olympic Committee is also looking into e-sports, and even some of our universities across the UK have now begun to offer e-sport courses, such is their technological innovation and economic potential. If we look around abroad for international comparisons, we can see that other countries are some way ahead of us in developing this sector. E-sports are now part of mainstream culture in South Korea, with the country leading globally in games development, e-sports and the marketing of e-sports. Forty thousand people recently attended an e-sports world championship that was played inside a football stadium used in Korea during the 2002 World Cup semi-final, whilst a gaming culture has been built through the establishment of gaming cafes. In response to the growing popularity, the Korean Government became actively involved in promoting e-sports, creating the Korea e-Sports Association to drive growth in games development and participation in online gaming. And only last week, the Danish Government released an official e-sport strategy to foster domestic and international growth of the sector with a focus on healthy environments and communities.

The UK Government has recognised the opportunities that the e-sports industry presents for our economy. The Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport is currently undertaking an inquiry to explore the potential of this sector in the UK among other technological trends, so we too need to get ahead. Dirprwy Lywydd, our motion today requests that the Welsh Government examines the potential economic benefits of the e-sports industry to Wales, consult with suitable stakeholders to organise and host an international e-sports competition in Wales and report on its progress to the Assembly no later than 1 October. If we're going to put Wales at the forefront of this developing trend, we need to do it now.

We are seeing new studies that look into the influence that performance in e-sports has, such as increased cognitive functions correlated with gaming and the positive effects on mental health. Now, it has to be said that there are some concerns out there about how gambling gets associated with e-sports, but it's not core to the activity; the activity is one of great innovation and invention on the people that play these games, particularly the professionals, and then the spectators that get involved in following them.

Can I say, Dirprwy Lywydd, that I am disappointed with the Government's amendment? It deletes point 4, which I just quoted, in terms of the action we require, and I think it does weaken the motion slightly. And then it replaces item 4 with a fuzzy, slightly self-congratulatory amendment of its own. However, such is the importance, I think, of us sending a unanimous message today that if I'm able to persuade the Assembly to support our motion without amendment, and assuming that the Government's amendment, then, does carry, because it still leaves the motion largely intact—and, as I said, there's the need to send this unified message—I would still ask Members to support the motion if it's amended. I look forward to contributions to what I hope you will agree is an important discussion this afternoon.

Thank you. I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism to move, formally, amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans.

Formally. Thank you.

Diolch. Janet Finch-Saunders.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Almost most of us here today will be aware that e-sports do generate a similar level of interest and excitement as does the World Cup. To date, the Welsh Government, however, has not taken full advantage of the immense economic benefits that are to be gained from promoting this industry by facilitating collaboration with stakeholders.

E-sports and the gaming industry are a source of entertainment that is particularly popular, of course, among the male population. Increasingly, this industry has assumed a central space on the internet and in the media. Now, given the immense technological advancement of our society, and our enhanced inter-connectedness with our regions, people and ideas, the popularity and availability of online games has multiplied.

According to NewZoo, the UK e-sports audience in 2016 was 6.5 million, and this is expected to increase with improved access to streaming platforms such as Sky Sports, YouTube and Twitch—I've never even heard of that last one. The Welsh Government must recognise that this industry has serious potential to accelerate our economic growth, generate jobs for future generations and equip those that are involved and interested in this industry with the business, digital and creative skills that will put Wales on the map for gaming and e-sport success, like the current leader in the field, South Korea.

According to the conclusions of the Bazalgette review, 300,000 jobs were created between 2011 and 2015, and by 2030, 1 million new jobs are predicted to be created within this industry. In 2016 alone, the British Esports Association estimated that e-sports contributed £18.4 million to the UK economy in 2016. Given that over $5.6 billion was spent by gamers in the leading country, South Korea, the Welsh Government has to acknowledge the full potential of this rapidly growing and exciting market by beginning to make preparations for collaboration with creative organisations, gaming businesses and, indeed, our own universities. 

Indeed, since it is our young generation who is fuelling this technological boom and e-sports success, the Welsh Government must acknowledge the benefits to be gained by extending collaboration with our Welsh universities, to develop partnerships with global technological companies, securing further investment and attracting the most competent graduates into Wales. English universities such as York and Staffordshire have already developed e-sports courses and modules that will equip young adolescents with an interest in pursuing a career in this field with the skills and knowledge that they will need going forward.

Furthermore, it is worth acknowledging that the University of South Wales and south-Wales based Tiny Rebel Games have collaborated with digital and creative companies such as Aardman Animations, and they have secured a multimillion-pound investment from the UK Government for the research and creation of a new virtual reality game. This type of investment needs to continue and extend to the promotion of e-sport events that can attract thousands of spectators to the very development of internet infrastructure and connectivity. Recently, in South Korea, 40,000 people attended the League of Legends world championships, and this success can be linked back to the Korean Government's investment into telecommunications and the internet. I therefore urge the Government to reflect on the points that I've made and my colleague David Melding has, and to initiate collaboration with technological and creative partners to give Wales and the Welsh people the best chance to capitalise on this global development. Thank you.

Can I thank the Member David Melding for bringing forward this very interesting debate today? I wanted to make a brief contribution and say that I believe the Member was absolutely right, in opening this debate, when he said the availability of the trends and talents are a clear part of the reason behind why we've seen such a rise in e-sports and why it will continue to grow in the future. In fact, PricewaterhouseCoopers suggests that by 2021, the UK market could be worth £5.2 billion.

So, Deputy Llywydd, how do we ensure that in Wales we do have a piece of that market share? It might well begin with our very own Assembly e-competition, because I have heard that, behind the scenes, my colleague from across the benches Darren Millar has been practising hard to beat me on FIFA, so I wonder, Deputy Llywydd, if the Member wants a game after Plenary one day. [Laughter.] On a more serious note—the issue of funding—we know that the Government's digital innovation fund has helped and supported technical innovation as well as driving growth in the gaming industry.

North-east Wales, in particular, is well placed to be part of this growth with the availability of regional funding, as well as links with major cities across the border. Now, that's important, because we know that the UK is good at attracting and retaining and training skilled workers within the digital sector, with London, Cambridge and Birmingham as we've mentioned earlier, acting as major magnets. But, Deputy Llywydd, that could mean areas in north Wales—right across the north Wales coast—linking with the English cities just across the border, could benefit from this market as well.

Wales has already hosted a range of major sporting events, such as the great Champions League final here in Cardiff, so there's absolutely no reason why we shouldn't be making moves to host the newly formed ePremier League, as we heard before, or even a European version. Now, I must say my grandad and close friends would be very happy, but the only thing I will say is that it pains me that Liverpool won the ePremier League, albeit they did play very well yesterday.

In closing, Deputy Llywydd, I do think Wales is in a great place to lead the way on the e-sports industry and be up there with the very best, but what we certainly know is that we need to build on the work that we've seen so far, but also consider future Government decisions, such as investment funds, tax implications and access to workers within the gaming industry in a post-Brexit Wales. Diolch.

I'm pleased to contribute to today's debate on e-sports and to agree with many of the comments made by my colleague David Melding in his eloquent opening of this debate. I must be honest, however, that my knowledge of this area is rather limited, but from what I've read over the past few days in bringing myself up to speed on the whole area of e-sports, this is a rapidly growing debate and one that I feel that, within Wales, we probably haven't been engaging with enough and that we should do more to engage with in future, because it is a growing and significant area of the creative industries, both in Wales and in the UK.

Now, David Melding mentioned the Government amendment. I think the Government amendment does deserve commendation for its own creativity—its deftness, I should say, as it neatly sidesteps the whole issue of e-sports and focuses the debate more on the subject of the creative industries. As David Melding said, that aside, we will not be supporting the Government amendment at the outset, but if that amendment does pass, we will then be supporting the amended motion, because the points it makes about the creative industries in Wales and their support and encouragement are very well-made points that deserve to be supported by all of us in this Chamber. 

But if I can turn to the substantive issue, the Bazalgette review made some important recommendations in this area, recognising the growing potential of e-sports for the economy whilst looking at ways in which we can guard against some of the more negative aspects that come out of this debate, such as the dangers of encouraging gambling, of encouraging participation in some of the less physical aspects of life that people do fear and have feared in the past about e-sports, which hopefully this debate will help to neutralise, for there are areas of e-sports that are beneficial and should be encouraged.

One thing is clear: e-sports and games, like it or not, are playing an increasing yet underrated role within the UK economy and the Welsh economy. It's an area that Wales can get ahead of the game with, if you pardon the pun, and that's not currently the case, with the geographical spread of jobs in this area uneven. In fact, the statistics that I looked at said that 46.7 per cent of the creative industry jobs are currently concentrated in London and the south-east of England, with a small percentage in Scotland; only 2.8 per cent currently in Wales, and I know we would all hope to change that. I think this can be overcome, but we have to accept it's not going to be easy, and it does touch many other areas.

The report that I mentioned shows that there's a strong link between the quality and accessibility of broadband connectivity and productivity, and that's straightforward to understand. The creative industries, particularly gaming and e-sports, require fast and reliable internet infrastructure and cloud-based services. So, premises have to have access to superfast broadband, and we know, in Wales, that has been an issue in the past. So, we must deal with any delays in rolling out phase 2 of Superfast Cymru, particularly in rural areas. Of course, rural areas, in my area, are also part of the wider Cardiff city region, and that region includes investment in digital technology, as does the Swansea city deal, indeed. So, e-sports can be addressed at the city region level, not just at the local level or indeed at the Welsh level.

So, what are the benefits of all this? Well, as David Melding said in opening, there are cognitive benefits of encouraging this area. There's also an application for science, technology, engineering and mathematics. E-sports can help develop skills such as improving decision making, promoting teamwork, communication skills, and developing digital technology and skills. These benefit a number of areas within and outside the digital sector. We know the importance—. We frequently talk about the importance, in this Chamber, of STEM to the wider Welsh economy. As a member of the cross-party group on science here in this Senedd, chaired ably by David Rees, it's an area that I care about and I know many AMs care about as well.

The Welsh Government's own STEM action plan acknowledges the need to address the issue that not enough young people are entering science learning and science jobs, and this seems to be one area where, using the creative industries and the development of e-sports, we can encourage more younger people into this sector. Universities across the UK are already ahead of the game. The University of York has been looking at this area. Let's hope that Welsh universities will also do the same, but let's, all of us, support this motion today and get on with the job of encouraging e-sports and supporting the creative industries in Wales.

I am grateful to the Conservatives for bringing forward this debate. It is indeed a debut for this topic. It was interesting just watching the first speakers and wondering whether it was David Melding or Janet Finch-Saunders or Jack Sargeant that was most into e-gaming. I'm glad Jack Sargeant spilt the beans that it was him. I wouldn't have been ageist in any way by suggesting it wasn't the other two. I am an e-gamer myself—not to a professional standard, but I do have a 15-year-old son who I can still beat at FIFA from time to time, and count me in for the Assembly competition.

It is a sign of how we have moved on. When I was working at the BBC, we used to have Subbuteo competitions at lunch time—no need for fast broadband for that. But we are talking about the pastimes, the leisure activities, and, indeed, as we are establishing here, the sport of the future. And I say that as somebody who is passionate about pushing the agenda of physical activity for young children in particular. And I don't think we should confuse support for e-sports as an entity in itself with somehow that being a barrier to physical activity, because, obviously, we cannot think in that way. But I've learned a lot about the notion of e-sports and how it has grown and grown as an economic power over recent years—the idea that we have here a £1 billion industry, the idea that we have world championships in e-sports, the idea that university departments are putting on courses involving e-sports, the idea that US colleges have e-sports clubs that are growing in size from year to year. This is—

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, of course.

Thank you. I just wanted to draw attention to the fact that I had the pleasure of visiting Coleg Llandrillo Menai recently, and the department there that supports students to develop games. And it was an eye opener for me, because not only are they developing the concept of the game, but developing the software, the graphics—you need to compose music, you need to storyboard. There’s a range of skills as part of the sector, and it’s much wider than I thought. And it was wonderful to see students from Wales having that opportunity to train, to develop ideas and develop initiative. Enterprise was part of the course, and that is something that would bring benefits to the economy and the individual.

You’re quite right, and I was going to come to that point, that this now has to be at the heart of what we offer to people in terms of opportunities—in education first of all, and then in business. What Wales needs to demonstrate, and why it’s so important that the Government does proceed to carry out specific research in this area, as the motion suggests, is that we are seeking a way to be innovative, that we are saying that Wales is eager to be in the vanguard. And, in order to do that, we must consider what’s happening out there, and consider carefully what we in Wales can achieve in setting an ambition.

I was in Scotland recently—doing a piece of work on electric vehicles, as it happens, and I will be publishing a report on that next week. I was in Dundee, where journalism was once the great industry—jute, jam and journalism were the three elements of the Dundee economy traditionally. But now the gaming industry is at the very heart of the excitement in Dundee at the moment, and Rockstar North, one of the major international companies in gaming, is a large local employer, and signals to us what can be achieved in making the right investment in the right place. As it happens, Dundee is also very innovative in terms of electric vehicles—that’s why I was there. And I think what we have there is a clear sign that, where you do have a community, or a town, or a nation such as Wales, deciding, 'This is something that we are determined to do', then it’s possible to aim towards that.

So, I do welcome the motion. Yes, it would be a shame if the Government’s amendment were to be passed. For example, it does note

'the significant investments made by the Welsh Government and its partners...that has helped establish a thriving Creative Industries sector in Wales.'

But we are talking here about a very specific sector within the creative industries in Wales, and we need specific investment for it. So, yes, it would be a shame if that amendment were to be passed, but as the Conservatives, as the movers of the main motion, do suggest that we should support an amended motion, if that is the case, then we will do likewise.

The skills associated with e-sports and gaming, such as decision making, problem solving, digital literacy and communication, have a wide implication within the economy. They are particularly relevant to those businesses based in science, technology, engineering and mathematics. Promoting e-sports, and using online gaming to help, emphasises the STEM agenda, may help to narrow the current skills gaps in Wales and to grow the Welsh economy. This has been highlighted by the Office for National Statistics, which recently produced figures that show that Wales has the lowest proportion of internet users with the five basic digital skills. They found that 66 per cent of internet users have the five basic skills, compared to the UK's average of 79 per cent. In England, the UK Government has taken action to tackle shortages in local digital skills by establishing digital skills partnerships. These bodies were set up to bring together regional businesses, the public sector, organisations and charities to tackle local challenges such as unemployment and skills gaps. The point I wish to emphasise is that there will be wider benefits in encouraging more people, particularly young people, into the digital games sector, due to its duplication of STEM subjects. 

The applicability of skills achieved through games and games development are many. They include improved decision making and cognitive skills, promoting team work and communication skills and developing digital knowledge that may benefit a number of sectors within and outside the digital sector. The importance of STEM subject skills to the economy cannot be overemphasised. A recent report by the UK Government suggested that one in five new jobs in the United Kingdom by 2022 will require such skills. It is important, therefore, that the education system in Wales rises to meet this challenge.

The 'Talented Women for a Successful Wales' report in 2016 highlighted significant challenges in delivering education in Wales. One of the points it made was the low take-up of STEM subjects by girls and women. It went on to say and highlight the relatively small amount of primary and secondary school teachers with STEM-specific backgrounds and skills. According to the report, 44 per cent of A-level ICT students and 12 per cent of A-level computing students are women, whilst only 28 per cent of secondary school teachers have specialist STEM backgrounds. The need to increase the supply of STEM skills through greater numbers of young people pursuing these subjects as an option has been acknowledged by the Welsh Government. Online gaming and e-sports are particularly popular with young people and a growing number of girls. This could lead to a higher take-up of STEM-based subjects, if interest in gaming and game development is utilised.

Research by the University of Surrey shows that girls aged 13 and 14 who play games for over nine hours a week are three times more likely to take up a STEM-based degree. Dr Anesa Hosein, the lead author of the report said, and I quote:

'educators seeking to encourage more take up of PSTEM subjects should target girl gamers, as they already may have a natural interest in these subjects.'

She went on to say:

'We need to get better at identifying cues early to recognise which girls may be more interested in taking up PSTEM degrees.'

Quote closed. Deputy Presiding Officer, using games and e-sports to encourage interest in STEM subjects may help to develop multiskilled students and graduates with directly transferrable skills and experiences that provide a foundation for future careers. This can only be beneficial for the Welsh economy, the future and for our children. Thank you.

I welcome the opportunity to take part in today's debate and thank David Melding for bringing forward the debate. I must admit that I was unaware of e-sports before seeing this debate on the agenda, but I recognise the potential value of the creative industries to the Welsh economy.

E-sports and video-gaming in general are a valuable part of our growing creative sector in Wales. However, I do not believe the Welsh Government should be hosting e-sports tournaments. That is the job of the British Esports Association, which can and do host competitions in the UK. A team from Ysgol John Bright were runners-up in the Overwatch section of the British Esports Championships, which took part at the Birmingham NEC a few weeks ago. The British Esports Championships are organised by the British Esports Association for school and college students aged 12 and over. A survey of pupils who have taken part in e-sports said it increases concentration, behaviour and attendance levels. E-sports are growing in popularity but are still only watched by around 3 million people in the UK. We shouldn't be spending taxpayers' money promoting this industry; instead Government resources should be spent ensuring that there are no barriers to its growth in Wales. We have to ensure Wales provides the right environment and has sufficient people with the necessary skills for e-sports and the wider video-game sector to thrive in Wales.

We also have to ensure that we are not promoting a sedentary lifestyle by encouraging young people to play video games exclusively in the hopes of becoming a world famous e-sports star. Unlike the majority of traditional sports, e-sports does not encourage greater physical activity. And I will, therefore, be supporting the Welsh Government's amendment and acknowledge that their approach is more likely to see a thriving e-sports sector in Wales. Thank you.

Thank you. Can I now call the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism, Dafydd Elis-Thomas? 

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. And may I say at the outset how much of a pleasure it is for me to be on my feet on a weekly basis here in the Siambr discussing issues with regard to the creative industries? I’m very grateful to the Conservatives for raising this matter. And it appears that we, in this debate here, have discovered something very interesting here in the Senedd across the parties, at last. And I see that the First Minister is smiling once again, after the celebration yesterday, that we have a basis for unanimity in e-sports. And I think that the term for e-sports in Welsh, ‘chwaraeon electronig’, explains more clearly what the nature of this sport is. So, it’s play in the digital arena and in the electronic area, that often happens on the internet.

But I’m very grateful to all Members who have contributed, and I think that we have had a debate that is the basis for us to develop our policy as a Government further. I did refer in the statement last week on the creative industries to this particular sector, but I accept that we can’t call a sector where there are 450 million people playing worldwide a sector that is exclusively a gaming sector—it is a digital practice and an electronic practice and there’s an opportunity for Wales to contribute in that regard, and that is an issue that is of particular interest to the Welsh Government.

I accept that the Bazalgette review, which is referred to in the motion, has quite rightly highlighted the importance of innovation within the creative industries and the possibility of developing that sector on the agenda of the UK. And it’s important to say that we in Wales are already contributing in this direction. There's the contribution of Mochi Mode from the University of South Wales in 2017 as a new business start-up and the success that they have had. There’s also the contribution made by Glyndŵr University in north Wales, which was recognised in 2018 as hub of the year in this particular field, and that too is a very important contribution for us as a Government to benefit from.

Now, these growth areas do develop intellectual potential and we agree with that. And I think it’s very important that we don’t set up a false argument in terms of this intellectual development with regard to e-sports against the idea of physical development through physical activity, because both things are just as essential for young people, I would imagine, and for people of all ages in their development as citizens and as people. And in that regard we do welcome the inquiries that the DCMS has held into this field, and we will be following what they do very carefully and try to benefit from that research as we develop what we do here in Wales.

It’s important for me to say—and this was the point of our amendment as a Government—that the Welsh Government has actively supported the growth of the video games sector. We had a trade mission to the games development conference in San Francisco, where eight Welsh games companies demonstrated their products. They had an opportunity to meet with investors and to attend networking events, and the indications that we’re aware of are that these businesses from Wales have secured over £300,000 worth of new work to date, following the conference, with a further £1 million worth of deals in negotiation.

We accept that this is a new sector, and that there are challenges faced within it. But, it's important that we are already looking at several initiatives across Government in this particular area. The major events unit, within the department that I share with the Minister, is working proactively with partners in Wales, the UK and internationally, including a number of e-sports rights owners and organisers, to identify and pursue opportunities to attract major e-sports events to Wales. These include discussing with the UK Interactive Entertainment Association, the European Gaming League and ESL, the owners of several major international properties in this sector. Sport Wales has also had discussions with the British Esports Association.

It appears to me, therefore, that we have a basis for agreement on this issue today, and I do welcome that very much. Having accepted that, we do see that there is a challenge for us as a Government to be more interactive and proactive, and to recognise that e-sports does develop new technologies that allow people to increase their social activity. We don't see e-sports as something that is necessarily isolating for people, but that there is an opportunity, rather, for them to take part in an extended global society. So, there is no conflict, as I suggested earlier, between physical health and interest in the digital sphere and e-sports.

So, to conclude, because I don't see any serious opposition in this debate, for once—and that gives me great pleasure as one of the Assembly Members who thought, after devolution, that almost every party in Wales could work together—perhaps we've had a glimpse of a happy digital future today. Thank you.  

Thank you. Can I call on David Melding to reply to the debate? 

Well, I must follow the Minister's inspiring observation that, you know, perhaps this is the world that will now mark the next 20 years of devolution, where we debate subjects on which we have broad agreement, but subjects that are still critical to our society—and in this case the economy and creative industries. But, can I thank everyone who has taken part in this debate? It's been a really interesting, informative and generous debate.

Janet started the contributions, and emphasised the entertainment value that people find from games—and they are greatly liberating for so many people. I mean, it's no wonder that they are so valued and enjoyed by people. Then, she looked at some of the UK statistics, which I had not specifically highlighted myself, and NewZoo's estimation of a 6.5 million audience in the UK. She was the first of several speakers to talk about the jobs potential that there is in the future.

Jack Sargeant looked at the growth of the UK market, and really got practical and called for an Assembly competition on FIFA. Darren—that would be the derby match really, from neighbouring areas of north Wales. I thought Jack made a really important point: in fairness to the Welsh Government, it has a record of some success in hosting major events, and we should remember that this also is an area that would be worthy of such support.

Nick Ramsay said that his knowledge was limited but growing in this area, and then delivered a most accomplished, comprehensive speech, which took us to the Bazalgette review and the importance of that really comprehensive report. Again, that’s not something that I referred to, but I do think it’s an excellent piece of work. And he talked about the importance of infrastructure, superfast broadband, and then he also mentioned the importance of STEM, which was taken up by other speakers as well.

The secrets were now gushing all of a sudden, and Rhun said that he’s an e-gamer and he occasionally beats his 15-year-old son in FIFA. So, perhaps he’ll give us more details about where he is in that particular league. But, anyway, perhaps I shouldn’t intrude into family competition. And how much the world has moved away from Subbuteo at the BBC. I have to say I thought that was a lovely image. And Llyr intervened on him and talked about a recent visit he made to a college where the students were developing a game, and just seeing the range of skills that that required, I think that was a very vivid example.

Oscar spent most time on the issue of STEM, reflecting his long-standing interest in skills and the importance of decision making, problem solving, as well as the technical skills and the need to narrow the skills gap. And there is clear applicability here in terms of students picking up these skills whilst doing something they really enjoy. And I think there’s a key opportunity for that, including involving women, who are often very poorly represented in the study of STEM subjects.

Caroline also said that she was new to the subject, but immediately saw its potential as part of a creative industry. I think it’s fair that, of all the speakers, Caroline was the most laissez-faire in her approach, welcoming the growth from the grassroots up and warning against too much governmental activity. But I do think that this is an area where the market is expanding, where it’s not crowded at the moment. There’s an awful lot of potential there, so we’ve got to get ahead, and Government does have a role to play there, as we’re seeing with the likes of the Bazalgette review, the UK Government’s strategy that’s developing, the work in Korea, and last week in Denmark. So, we shouldn’t miss the lessons that that indicates to us as well.

And then, the Minister concluded by saying that this is a developing policy, a useful debate, and I thought he made the very, very important point that we shouldn’t set up e-sports and sports particularly by saying that e-sports stop people being active in real sports. Well, you know, you can do both; you can excel at both. You can enjoy both. That is not the competition. The world is an open and exciting enough place to have e-sport activity and traditional sporting activity. And I think he generally did indicate that the Government has got ambition and an open mind here. We have this slight disagreement about the amendment, but can I just say that I would urge Members to support our motion unamended? But should the motion get amended, then please support the amended motion. Thank you.

Thank you very much. So, the proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we defer voting under this item until voting time.

The next item on our agenda this afternoon is the Plaid Cymru debate on health boards, and I call on Helen Mary Jones to move the motion.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I rise today to propose this motion in the spirit of utmost seriousness. It is no light matter to ask any parliament to express a lack of confidence in an appointed Minister. The threshold for making such a call is high, and rightly so. The Minister's party holds the highest number of Members in this place and, through arrangements with others, the First Minister has secured a majority. This gives him a mandate to govern and to choose his own Ministers.

However, faced with a systematic pattern of failures in our health service and the Minister's apparent unwillingness or inability either to hold senior managers to account for those failures or to take responsibility for them himself, we on this side of the Chamber felt we had no option but to table this motion today. At its heart is a matter of accountability, and in this context, it feels right to remind this Chamber where accountability for our national health service lies. Legislation passed in this place in 2009 restructured the service, removing market mechanisms and making the health service clearly accountable to the health Minister, and through her or him to this Assembly, and through this Assembly to the people. There is no ambiguity here. Health organisations are no longer, and have not been for many years, quasi-autonomous bodies.

The Wales Audit Office produced a memorandum in 2015 setting out clearly the accountability arrangements for the NHS. These roles are in the memorandum, in line with the legislation, and these are the roles that are attributed by that memorandum to the Minister, setting policy and strategic framework direction, agreeing in Cabinet as part of collective discussion overall resources for the NHS, determining strategic distribution of overall resources, setting the standards and performance framework, and crucially, Llywydd, holding the NHS leaders to account. We submit, Llywydd, that in this last regard the Minister has failed in his duties, and his failures had serious consequences for the people. It is our duty as an Assembly to hold him to account for this.

We discussed the Cwm Taf report at some length here last week, but I feel I must return to some of the issues raised. The experiences of families caught up in this situation have been truly terrible, and children's lives have been lost. The report highlights amongst other things the lack of consultant cover, the use of locum staff without effective induction programmes, the lack of awareness around appropriate action in response to serious incidents, and, crucially, a governance system that does not support safe practice, and a culture within the service that is still perceived as punitive. It is also clear that many families were treated with shocking disrespect and disdain, and that there was a culture in some wards and in some circumstances where the dignity and respect that should have been accorded to mothers and their families was shockingly and absolutely absent. That there was catastrophic failing in this service—of that there can be no doubt. The question for us today is: could and should the Minister have known and acted sooner?

The report lists eight separate reports between 2012 and 2018, any one of which should have been enough at least to trigger a close look, if not an intervention, by a Minister and his officials. I will not detail them all here. They are in the public domain and the report, which I am sure all Members will have read. Now, the Minister's defenders will undoubtedly say that some of these reports are internal, and that the report itself highlights a lack of transparency on the part of the board, and this is true. But the majority of these reports were available to the Minister and his officials. In 2012, the Healthcare Inspectorate Wales report raised serious concerns around the quality of patient experience, delivery of safe and effective care, and the quality of management and leadership. Questions should have been asked then.

The 2007 General Medical Council deanery visit identified six areas of concern around failings in the educational contract, including induction. The 2018 General Medical Council survey raised concerns with induction and clinical supervision. These reports, coupled with concerns being raised at the time by individual Assembly Members as a result of issues being brought to them by their constituents, should have shown the Minister and his officials a pattern. He should have stepped in sooner, and if he had, many families could have been saved the trauma and loss that they experienced in this failing service. So eventually, in the autumn last year, the Minister did take action. Reports were commissioned, and eventually that work went under way, though given the severity of the concerns, it seems pertinent to ask why a review commissioned in the autumn did not take place until January. We know, of course, what that review found.

So, how has the Minister responded to this? Well, he has apologised. He has placed the service into special measures. He has sent a board in to provide advice and challenge and he has spoken about the need to change the culture. But he has left in place all those senior individuals who presided over the development of this disastrous culture. The chief executive, who has held her role since 2011, has been allowed to remain in post. As far as we know, and more importantly, as far as the families know, no-one has been disciplined for allowing this situation to develop and continue. No-one has been held to account for the trauma to the mothers and the deaths of 26 children.

The Minister will no doubt be aware that there is extensive research in how to deliver effective cultural change within organisations. He should know that one of the key factors in delivering effective cultural change is fresh leadership—change at the top. Does he really expect the staff who were working in circumstances where it was impossible for them to raise concerns to believe that their managers want openness now, that they will be encouraged and supported to be open about service failings, by the same managers who silenced them before? Does he expect the families who have raised concerns and continue to feel ignored to believe that those same managers who have patronised them, belittled them, and in at least one case threatened legal action against them, will suddenly start treating them with respect and taking their concerns seriously? Are we expected to believe that these leaders, who have perpetuated a culture of silence and who have allowed terrible mistreatment of women and their babies to continue, are we to believe these people have suddenly come to the conclusion that openness and honesty is best? I doubt it. So, while the right things have been said, effectively nothing has been done and the families deserve better.

Now, I have focused my remarks on the Cwm Taf situation since this is the most recent and most grievous of the failings the motion highlights. Colleagues will speak to the situation in the north where Betsi Cadwaladr health board has been in special measures for four years without the necessary improvements having been achieved. Members will also recall the independent review of the Princess of Wales Hospital and the Neath Port Talbot Hospital in 2014 also highlighting serious failings. 

What all these situations have in common is a failure on the part of the Government to hold senior managers to account. While front-line staff can be struck off and prevented from practice, managers appear to be able to move from one part of the service to another with impunity, with no sanction, regardless of how poorly they have performed. How can the Cwm Taf families and the front-line staff believe that there will be real change when, after four years of special measures, Betsi Cadwaladr continues to need intervention? This will not do. 

We need a professional body for NHS managers with the ability to strike managers off for poor performance. We need to ensure true independence of Healthcare Inspectorate Wales. We need a legal duty of candour to apply to all health professionals including managers, and a genuine, robust and transparent complaints system that supports parents and families. Some of this has been promised, none of it has been delivered. A culture persists where it appears that managers are never held responsible. This is not new and it must change.

The Minister has presided over this service first as Deputy Minister and then as Minister since 2014 and the culture has not been challenged, let alone transformed. The Minister must take responsibility, and if he will not do so we must hold him to account. Presiding Officer, no-one doubts that any health Minister serving our nation has a very difficult job to do. She or he is accountable for a vast and complex service, a service that spends the lion's share of this Government's budget, and a service that is vital to every single one of us as citizens and every person that we represent.

We have to be able to rely on a health Minister to provide the service with really robust challenge, to ensure that where there is failure it is addressed, and where there is best practice it is shared. Instead, we have a series of serious failings with no-one held to account. There must be accountability for this series of failings and for the inadequate response to them. So, Presiding Officer, in the spirit of all seriousness, I must commend this motion, unamended, to this Assembly. 

I have selected the amendment to the motion and I call on the Minister for health to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans.

Formally.

I rise with a very, very heavy heart today. We read last week—I can hear the huffs of breath on the benches opposite, and I'm very disappointed by that. I sincerely mean that I rise with a very, very heavy heart. Last week, we saw the publication of another stomach-churning report into failings in our precious national health service. In that report, we read about front-line staff that were overstretched and under-resourced. We read about a lack of dignity in the care of patients, vulnerable patients. We read about patients and family concerns being dismissed, and some individuals being regarded as troublemakers by the staff when they made those complaints. We read of a complaints system that failed to learn from mistakes; inadequate and missing patient records; an unhealthy culture amongst the staff; unprofessional behaviour that broke professional codes of practice; false assurances that were given to elected representatives raising constituency problems on behalf of individuals; many missed opportunities for intervention; failures in basic governance requirements; information not being disclosed to individuals where it ought to have been disclosed and, as a result, patients coming to harm—deaths, the needless deaths of vulnerable babies, with the distress and the heartache that comes from that. And each one of those issues was almost identical to the report that disclosed the terrible failures and scandals at the Tawel Fan unit in north Wales. 

I could have listed any one of those and it would have been absolutely identical. And we were assured in north Wales that when that report was published into the failings at Tawel Fan, it would be the last of its kind because you would get to grips with those problems. You made statement after statement in the aftermath of the publication of the Tawel Fan report that things would change, that we would never see the likes of it again, and yet here we are, four years later, with the Betsi Cadwaladr health board still in special measures, still not delivering appropriate quality services, certainly in respect of its mental health care, and a situation where almost identical failings have been identified in terms of other services, this time for young babies and their mothers in Cwm Taf. 

What will it take for our national health service to learn lessons, to change practices and to deliver the improvements that we need to see? It will only change if we change those at the top of the organisation. And Helen Mary Jones has quite rightly pointed out that the buck stops with you as the Minister for Health and Social Services here in Wales. You were given charge over the special measures situation at the Betsi Cadwaladr health board. You took responsibility, and each time we raised concerns about the lack of progress, you had a familiar refrain that you had made it clear that you wanted to see improvement. Well, words alone don't deliver the sort of improvement that we need to see. People want a health service in Wales that is accountable for its failures, where people own up and they accept responsibility when things go wrong. But I'm afraid that all too often in this Chamber we see you, Minister, taking the credit when things go right and washing your hands when things go wrong in our national health service. That's what we've seen, and that's no doubt what we will see you attempt to do today. I'm afraid that, unless you accept your responsibility for these failings and your responsibility for failing to put right the situation in north Wales, we are never going to see the change that we need, and that's why I've got absolutely no confidence in you to deliver the improvements in our health service that we need to see. 

I don't doubt that there are many in this Chamber who would want to see you continue in your role, but I am afraid that I have lost confidence in your ability to do this particular job, and I think that people in north Wales, people in Cwm Taf and people elsewhere in this country deserve better. And, if I may say so as well, I think that where you have senior leaders in an organisation with dreadful failings, chief executives and chairs ought to resign, and if they don't resign, they ought to be sacked, with no pay-offs, no big retirement packages, they ought to go. When a board fails in its basic governance arrangements, the person responsible for those governance arrangements in the board, the chair, should leave. When a chief executive fails to show the leadership required to set the culture in an organisation, to make it open and transparent and to learn from mistakes, she ought to go. We've seen no resignations for these sorts of failings, and I would like to see people accept responsibility. It's about time we saw an accountable health service in Wales. We don't have one at the moment under your leadership.

Today, I want to thank you, Minister, for taking the correct step in commissioning an independent review of the maternity services in Cwm Taf, a review which must act as a fresh foundation in rebuilding greater faith in these important services. The fact that the Minister himself commissioned the independent review tells me what I need to know at this point.

I believe that, last October, the Minister took the action that was required in order to understand the problems in these maternity services, not an internal, inward-looking report, but a completely independent report of Government and of the health board that took decisive action that followed to place that service in special measures.

The message that I've heard most clearly is that the service must improve, so that other women do not experience what the independent review brought to light, and I would certainly want to add my voice to that. And we will expect that to happen, including dealing robustly with any individuals that are found to be responsible for failings.

And because of my concerns, I've taken the time myself over the last week or so to review and learn from this recent experience. I hope we've all done the same. It's important, as a review such as this does lead to some fundamental questioning. While I totally and fully accept all the issues of failure raised by families, I can honestly say that since my election in May 2016, I had no individual casework relating to Cwm Taf maternity services raised with me. That is until these recent months, when the independent review was announced and was in progress.

However, since the review started in October 2018, I have had direct contact with two constituents, and the view that I clearly heard from them was the need to improve the experience for those women using the services. Then, in January, as the independent review was in progress, I was one of several AMs that received an anonymous letter from some staff expressing their concerns, primarily about the management of the service. Together with at least one other AM colleague, I made the content of that letter known to the health board. And now that the independent review is complete, I will be following up those concerns to make sure that the issues raised in it have been adequately addressed, and I will expect that to include information on actions taken against anyone found to be responsible.

Last year, I wrote an entirely unrelated report on local health and care services in my constituency, a large part of which, of course, falls within the Cwm Taf health board area, and that report included a section on what we do when things go wrong. In the context of our health services, my thoughts at that point were that we need to be open about the mistakes, we need to review and learn the lessons, apologise and compensate where that is necessary, correct matters going forward, and ensure robust follow-up. 

Using my own words as a yardstick, then, it seems to me that the very important bit that we need to keep improving on is around openness about mistakes. As the independent report states, there are issues around culture that still need to be addressed, but as I wrote about the importance of robust follow-up, we need to look again at that. And as we review and learn, I know the public that I represent in Cwm Taf and those beyond will demand to be fully informed of the actions taken by this health board.

Finally, we will need the Minister's reassurance that there will be speedy notification about the progress being made, and I believe that we will get that reassurance. That is the responsibility upon the health Minister, and it is why I continue to have confidence in his leadership.

I was looking at one of the reports referred to in the motion in preparing for this debate today, and that mentioned how there were problems in terms of how senior management had acted in dealing with the risks that exist within the service. The report mentions huge problems in terms of reporting serious incidents, that there were delays in responding to complaints and, in some cases, those complaints received no response whatsoever. Well, what report was that? Well, the Ockenden report, or one of the Ockenden reports, on Tawel Fan. I looked at another report then, which echoed many of the same messages: an adversarial complaint system with slow management, problems with institutional issues, on patient safety, on developing capacity, on workforce planning, and some examples of appalling patient care. That was the Andrews report, referring to the Abertawe Bro Morgannwg University Health Board from 2014. And now, of course, we have the royal college report, which demonstrates once again that staff are overworked and are led by managers who don't deliver their roles effectively, that there is underreporting of serious incidents. The report demonstrates that patient safety is not a priority in terms of the decision-making process and that staff are reluctant to report concerns about patient safety because of fear of being barred from work over a period of time or facing disciplinaries for reporting concerns. And there are also concerns about the complaints process that are, again, outlined in this report.

The current Minister, of course, has been responsible for running the NHS on a day-to-day basis since September 2014, because that was his role as Deputy Minister at that time. And just a matter of months after the publication of the Andrews report on ABMU, and around the same time as the first Ockenden report was being drafted, was when he took up his role. And it would be reasonable, of course, for us not to blame the Minister for failing to halt the scandals, but he does have a responsibility for his response to them.

In my region of north Wales, of course, the Betsi Cadwaladr health board, as we've already heard, has been placed in special measures, and that was at a time when the First Minister was the Cabinet Secretary for health. That was supposed to be a temporary measure. Four years later, under direct management from the Welsh Government, and we still haven't seen the improvements that we would all hope to have seen when they were placed in special measures. Indeed, there is terminology similar to 'special, special measures' that has been used since then, and that is a cause of concern for us all. The board has faced a number of scandals over the years. One of the first issues following my election was the C. difficile scandal at Ysbyty Glan Clywyd, if you recall, and that was a number of years ago. But not a single member of the board or a single senior manager has been disciplined for that failing.

We've seen failures on workforce planning as well, and one recent example that I highlighted here previously, of course, was the farcical situation of nurses training in Wrexham Glyndŵr University, but unable to take up work placements just down the road at Wrexham Maelor Hospital and, as a result, of course, having to go out to the NHS in England and into private practice and those nurses being lost to the NHS in Wales. I raised yesterday the closure of community hospitals, including Llangollen, Flint, Prestatyn, Blaenau Ffestiniog, and the way the private sector is now stepping in to fill the void of those beds that have been lost.

We almost saw the first NHS staff in Wales transfer into the private sector under a new dialysis contract, hatched by the Minister's department recently. Because the staff actually contacted us, we eventually managed to ensure that they were not transferred, but that still leaves large chunks of the renal service in north Wales, of course, under the direct control of private companies. We've heard about Tawel Fan, and I don't need to revisit that particular example because, as we've been reminded, we were told that we would never see such a report in future because the lessons had been learnt.

Well, you know, we had two senior reports, as I mentioned at the start, that all highlighted the extent to which the culture of those boards and the way they operate needs to change, and we need to be seeing action to change those cultures. But what we see, of course, is that we get a third example and last week's royal college report, which highlights the very same failings, and we have to ask: what has been done to change the rotten culture that exists in some of these boards?

The symptoms are the same, of course, as I've listed, but I'm unaware of a single manager who's been disciplined for contributing to or maintaining this culture. Indeed, we are aware of one manager holding a senior position with responsibility for patient care in both Cwm Taf and Betsi Cadwaladr during the periods concerned who also secured employment in a similar position after the Tawel Fan scandal. Of course, at the same time, doctors and nurses have been struck off and faced criminal investigations for those scandals, but failing managers can just carry on.

As my colleague said, he's responsible for the performance of those boards and those chief executives. The Minister made a decision clearly last week to side with them and not with patients, and we can no longer have confidence in him.

Twenty years into devolved governance, you would expect that Wales and its population should be receiving high-quality essential services. Well, I can tell you that there is no greater example of mismanagement of the devolution process than those of failing health services. It is not devolution that is failing the hard-working medical professionals in our communities, but the Welsh Government's own handling and mismanagement of the Welsh NHS.

Now, we need look no further than the health board that encompasses the constituency that I am very honoured to represent to see the health board and the failings as a result of this Welsh Government. Despite Betsi Cadwaladr having been in special measures since June 2015, it has just recorded the worst A&E waiting times in Wales. Less than 60 per cent of patients were seen within four hours at Wrexham Maelor and Ysbyty Glan Clwyd. Despite these measures, it has seen the highest number of patient safety incidents out of all NHS trusts in Wales, and despite special measures, the health board treated the lowest percentage of people waiting for planned care within 26 weeks of GP referral in February. It also had over half the 13,000 people in Wales waiting more than 36 weeks for treatment in February and has just recorded the biggest deficit out of Wales's seven NHS health boards at £42 million.

Four years of special measures, still failure and frustration about future services. The Welsh Government knows this and the Minister, actually, admitted on 6 November 2018 that significant difficulties remain. Is this acceptable when considering that the health board has been under the direct control of you, our health Minister, for the longest time of any NHS body in Great Britain? My constituents and I think not. Indeed, Aberconwy says 'no'. Lack of progress was identified by Donna Ockenden, her review finding that, as of 2017, the board had failed to meet key targets, including governance leadership and oversight, mental health services, and reconnecting with the public and regaining public confidence. That is saying 'regaining public confidence'—that confidence isn't there, Minister. More so, Mrs Ockenden's more recent letter on insufficient progress in improving those mental health services—I'm shocked to learn that her offer to help, in fact, was declined.

I'm saddened that there are numerous areas that remain to be addressed before de-escalation from special measures can be considered. Clearly, the situation is not in my own constituents' best interest. However, it seems that the problems are prolific across Wales, with five, now, of the seven health boards in some type of special measures. These measures indicate failure. For example, the challenges faced at Cwm Taf. The review of maternity services at Cwm Taf found a lack of a coherent approach towards patient safety or an understanding of their roles and responsibilities towards patient safety beyond the care they provided for a specific woman or group of women, that assessors were repeatedly and consistently told by staff of a reluctance to report patient safety issues because of a fear of blame, suspension or disciplinary action, and there was hardly any evidence of effective clinical leadership at any level. A major revision of all aspects of maternity services is needed there so as to protect future families facing the losses we've witnessed and heard about. As your own Welsh Labour MP, Owen Smith, stated, the Welsh Government decision about reorganisation seems to have compounded the problems facing Wales. I'm aware that it has also taken far too long for the special measures action to be taken—nearly seven years after concerns were first formally raised. That is not proactive. You work on a reactive basis, Minister.

We are faced today with the Welsh Government's delays on action at Cwm Taf, continued failings to manage Betsi Cadwaladr. I certainly do not have confidence that the current Minister for Health and Social Services in the Welsh Government can address the systemic failings raised here today. Four years have passed since north Wales came under the direct control of the Welsh Government. So, how on earth can we be expected, Minister, to believe anything that you tell us any more? Now, I actually support wholeheartedly the motion today by Plaid Cymru, and I would ask that you do seriously consider your own position. I would, if I was you—I would resign. I would go one further: if you are not prepared to do the honourable thing so that my constituents and other patients across Wales can receive adequate healthcare, I would ask the First Minister to sack you. Thank you.

It's been a deeply upsetting week for anyone who has read or been involved with the royal college's review of maternity services in Cwm Taf. The testimonies of the mothers whose babies died cannot but move any of us, and the way they've been treated is enough to make anyone angry. Now, I asked the question last week about whether this would have happened in another area—say, for example, a hospital service in a wealthier catchment area, where the patients would be more likely to be middle class. Would we see a report highlighting dismissive attitudes and a failure to apologise, and responses that were formulaic and seemed to be more interested in defending the reputation of individuals and the health board in a wealthier area? I very much doubt it. And this isn't a controversial point; it forms part of the inverse care law that the Minister himself has acknowledged in plenty of other circumstances. The dismissive tone in which these concerns were dismissed by the Minister last week doesn't inspire confidence in me that things will be put right. After all, the crux of the problem here is that people, mainly working-class women, have been dismissed, and here was the health Minister doing that all over again. But holding the Minister to account does not mean that those responsible at the health board should also not be held to account—of course they should—and right up until last week, there were questions over their actions.

In October last year, before the external review was commissioned, a Cwm Taf spokesperson told the media that their internal review was a routine exercise about whether things should be done differently. At the very same time, the health board were in possession of an internal report that said that things were far worse. Where is the transparency here? Hiding that report was misleading us: evidence that the board is more interested in defending its reputation than correcting the problems within the service. It remains a grave injustice, in my view, that doctors, nurses and midwives can be struck off and face criminal investigation—rightly, of course—for failures in patient care, whereas not a single manager, to our knowledge, has ever faced equivalent sanctions. That is not right and it's symptomatic of the class-based culture that infects public life. The chief executives of our health boards are paid substantially more than the First Minister, and they face no equivalent accountability, whereas we all know, if a low-paid or a low-grade worker did something of even a quarter of this magnitude in their workplace, there would be a very, very different result.

The Minister himself has not acknowledged that he runs the health service in Wales. He is responsible; the buck is meant to stop with him, but to date, this has meant very little. But here today, at least, we can send a message that Ministers can be struck off. This is, after all, an issue of more magnitude than recent sackings in Westminster. Liam Fox resigned for inviting an ex-special adviser abroad to meetings. Amber Rudd misled a committee, and Gavin Williamson allegedly leaked confidential information. Now, I would argue that service failures that led to that damning report last week are much more serious than the matters that those Westminster Ministers resigned over.

Let's contrast the behaviour of the health Minister here over the past week with that of the former health minister in Tunisia. In March of this year, 11 babies tragically died in a hospital in Tunis, following an infection outbreak attributed to poor practices on the ward. The health minister in Tunisia looked at his conscience, took responsibility and resigned, despite only having been in the post for four months. It's time that we applied those standards of accountability and responsibility here. I think it definitely is.

We heard last week from Lynne Neagle that there had been problems in Cwm Taf over 16 years ago, and, clearly, we have to ensure that the problems that were identified then were then rectified, but, clearly, that doesn't appear to have been the case in that what other people are saying is that there continued to be problems throughout all this time. The question that I asked myself on reading this report was, 'Where was the supervisor of midwives in all this?' Because it was their duty to ensure that a unit was safe, and, if it wasn't safe, they had the powers to close it down. So, that is a big question mark that I'd like to have answered, because it isn't—. Their role was then changed in 2017, so that they wouldn't any longer have those investigating powers, but would instead be there in a supporting role, and that is, indeed, what midwives wanted. And Wales was, to some extent, ahead of the game in clarifying the role of the new clinical supervisors of midwives. But my understanding is that, in Cwm Taf, the role was never changed in line with the legislation, that they continued to be asked to investigate serious incidents as opposed to being tasked to support and develop good practice in midwifery. There were clearly lots of examples of why there were concerns about midwifery practice, because of the numbers of stillbirths, the numbers of caesarians, which should have been evident to the board at the time.

And, clearly, if neither the—. It's not fair on midwives, who are there to deliver normal births, if they don't have then the specialist people to call on when complications start to appear. The fact that the consultant obstetrician was often absolutely absent and was not available for up to an hour, which is a huge amount of time when a pregnancy is going wrong—. It was clear that the service—. It should have been clear, in plain sight, to all the very senior staff—the consultant obstetrician, the consultant paediatrician—that this was not a service that was equipped to look after the very immature 28-week gestation babies. And the whistle should have been blown by them.

I think the key moment occurred when the consultant midwife reported in September 2018, and it was clear that it was hidden from plain sight, because the assessors who went up there in January weren't even aware of it until the day that they arrived. But is it the case that the board didn't know about it, or they did know about it and they did nothing about it? Clearly, the Minister did know about it, because he then commissioned additional investigations in October last year. So, he took appropriate action, in my view. But I think that there are some very serious issues that shouldn't be blinded by trying to put on trial the health Minister. It's all of us who have to accept our collective duty to ensure that health boards have the powers, the remit and the responsibility for delivering the service for the community they've been tasked to serve.

So, what changes, if any, need to be made in the governance arrangements of health boards, and how do we ensure that the culture within health boards is one that strives for continuous improvement and better meeting the needs of populations? We have to ensure that staff on the wards are in an environment where they can blow the whistle if they do not think that the service is operating safely, and that clearly does not seem to have been in operation in Cwm Taf. So, I think those are the issues in front of us. I think that calling for the resignation of the health Minister is, frankly, a diversionary tactic. We absolutely have to get right the service—

Will you take an intervention?

No, I won't. No.

—the service that we have in Cwm Taf and in all our maternity services to ensure that they are fit for purpose, in line with 'Better Births'. So, I think that is the issue in front of us and that's the one we should be scrutinising in detail.

Yesterday, we saw another motion from this Labour Government that was little more than patting itself on the back, as if everything in the Welsh NHS was hunky-dory, and we see it regularly. The Minister's been sitting there most of this debate, with his little smirk on his face—I don't know how you can, Minister. Seriously, I don't know how you can.

The amendments tabled—[Interruption.] The amendments tabled by the Labour Government today demonstrate the denial and complacency, not that we needed more evidence of that. Yes, I note the actions the Welsh Government are taking in relation to Cwm Taf, but it's very little comfort. Do I think they'll be able to take the bull by the horns and make the tough decisions that they need to take to sort out the failures of Betsi Cadwaladr, Cwm Taf and others? No. It's pretty clear, particularly from the tragic reports of baby deaths last week, that the last thing Labour is entitled to is to congratulate itself, as it so often does, or sit in denial as it's doing today. It should instead be hanging its collective head in shame and submitting a motion giving a profuse apology to grieving families and giving us solid actions that they're going to take to recover the situation.

Labour have been running the NHS for 20 years in Wales, and every election they say they'll transform the NHS and that it's safe in their hands. Yet, every Assembly term, they make it worse. Why should we or the public believe that, all of a sudden, the services will improve when they've not done so for decades?

This Government bleats that our NHS is reliant on migrants and uses a recruitment crisis to hide behind—when, that is, the Minister isn't hiding behind the staff. But successive Governments, aided and abetted by this Welsh Labour Government, have created the recruitment problem in the NHS. It costs a great deal of money to train to be a doctor, making it that much more daunting a profession to join, as if the responsibilities involved weren't daunting enough. But, at the same time, training places have not kept pace with the population. In effect, UK and Welsh Governments have outsourced medical training to places like the third world, where we steal many of our doctors from communities that have desperate need of them.

And, of course, the recruitment problem is exacerbated by the reputation of some of the health boards in Wales. How can we hope to recruit staff when having some of the health boards in Wales on their curriculum vitae may damage their long-term career prospects? The point of having the NHS devolved to the Welsh Government was that it would be able to respond to local needs and perform better for the people of Wales than it had done previously. Instead, Welsh Government have damaged the NHS so it has problems, rather than benefits, unique to Wales. A health service that has every reason to be more responsive to local needs is in fact less responsive. There are longer waiting lists and worse outcomes than its English counterparts that Labour don't control, baby-killing levels of incompetence, waiting lists of thousands of per cent, young people having their lives ruined waiting for mental health treatment. How can people out there in the real world have any confidence that this Government can either come up with the ideas needed to solve the Welsh NHS chaos or implement the steps they're promising?　

Of course, I welcome any ideas and actions that improve the NHS, but I, like many others in here and out across Wales, have no faith that this Government can deliver anything other than continued crisis for our nation's national health service. The people who voted for this Government put them in place to govern, not to try and duck out of accountability. Those same people trusted Labour and placed their NHS system in its hands and in the Minister's hands. The Minister must now bear the ultimate responsibility for the failures in the NHS, and I will be supporting Plaid's motion today, but the Labour group will no doubt defeat Plaid's motion, and that will demonstrate quite effectively how wrong Labour voters were to place their trust in Labour. Thank you.

I would like to begin my contribution this afternoon by joining with my colleague Dawn Bowden in thanking the Minister very sincerely for taking such decisive action as soon as the issues in Cwm Taf maternity services came to light, commissioning this independent review that has allowed us to shine a spotlight on the failings in the service and begin to put things right. So, for my contribution today, I'd like to pick up on two important themes that I mentioned in the Chamber last week, and I will focus my remarks on the Cwm Taf report, as that's the one that directly affects my constituents in the Cynon Valley.

As I stated here last week, there's no doubt that, since I was elected to this place three years ago, that report is the most distressing thing that I have had to read, and my thoughts remain very firmly with all of the families affected. Firstly, for all the women that I have spoken to from my constituency and also the women from Cynon Valley whose views are expressed in that report, there is one theme that stands out very clearly, and that relates to the issue of notes disappearing or not being taken, of record keeping not being accurate, of women going through a very difficult time in labour and repeatedly being asked by different members of staff to verbally pass on information, rather than that information being there at hand. Take the example of Mountain Ash resident Joann Edwards. Joann has spoken of being constantly asked to repeat reasons for induction and type of delivery, and noted poor communication between staff and shifts. As she said,

'Not one person seemed to refer to my notes which even included scan pictures from the consultant with details of fluid measurements.'

Or Chloe Williams from Ynysybwl—now, Chloe had contracted E. coli during her pregnancy, which wasn't captured in her notes. She suffered tremendous pain and, tragically, her son was stillborn. Now, the reason that I give these examples in such detail—as Members will be aware, the Public Accounts Committee recently considered NHS informatics and had some pretty clear findings on that, and, similarly, I've had useful discussions in the last week with organisations like the Royal College of Nursing to discuss this, and it's clear to me that informatics must be used more effectively to ensure that all the information that midwives and doctors need is at hand in order to make the right decisions at the right time for mothers and for babies.

Secondly, a point I made was that Cwm Taf has particular issues around its socioeconomic make-up. There are resultant health issues that arise from this, and, whilst this is no excuse, they clearly have an impact on outcomes. But other areas in Wales have the same challenges, and those other areas also have fewer interventions and safer outcomes for mothers and babies. So, it's really important that the Cwm Taf health board draws on these experiences of similar health boards and learns from them so that things can be different moving forward. I very much welcome the assurances that the Minister gave me personally in the Chamber last week around this co-working.

I also want to spend just a little time addressing the report’s findings around governance. The report talks about inadequacies in clinical leadership, no training and no evidence of board-level plans to develop skills or support leaders, a lack of visible accountability, and, what is worse, the provision of false assurances to the board. And, even when unannounced visits to the board raised concerns to which there should have been a response, the characterisation is of lack of action. Moving to the fourth term of reference, it strikes me as incomprehensible that reviews of governance arrangements should be commissioned and then just left on the shelf. Moreover, there was a lack of clinical involvement. Standard systems of data collection, validation and audit were just not in place. There were no leadership expectations for these functions, so they became nobody’s business.

I want to briefly touch on the last point of the Plaid motion, and explain why I believe that it is the wrong approach. When the Minister gave his statement last week, he outlined a range of interventions to make things right. His focus on establishing an independent maternity oversight panel, strengthening board leadership and providing external scrutiny and support is, to my mind, the correct approach, and I expect that this should lead to a resolution of the challenges in governance systems that I've just described—governance systems that can have such a devastating effect on the lives of people accessing the services.

Similarly, in response to the concerns I raised after his statement, I welcome the Minister's comments around better use of technology to provide greater robustness and certainty about record transfer. Let us not forget, it is only thanks to the Minister's intervention that a light has been shone on these issues. So, instead of scapegoating or looking for an easy headline, let's focus on making things right for the people who rely on these services, and that includes the staff themselves.

I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services, Vaughan Gething.

Thank you, Llywydd. The report on Cwm Taf maternity services was published just last week. It shook everyone in this Chamber, as it should have done. The independent royal colleges review that I commissioned identified a range of failings and shone a light on poor care and distressing experiences for women and their families. I fully recognise the seriousness of the maternity review findings. I accept them in full. And I repeat again the apology that I have made to families that were failed.

I do, though, want to set out what I will not do today. I will not be drawn into trying to unpick a selection of reports over the last five years of our NHS. Each of those reports was upsetting in its own right. Each one was incredibly difficult for the people affected. There were lessons to be learned from all of them: lessons for our NHS; lessons for our approach to intervention and escalation. So, I am not going to trade on examples of NHS performance, to point fingers at other people or other parts of the NHS in the UK. I'm clear that a party political fist fight, just a week after the report was published, takes all of us away from what families have told us really matters. Our job is to listen to them and to put right what should not have gone wrong, and that is why we have tabled our amendment.

None of us can truly understand how distressing this has been, and continues to be, for the families affected. But, I have been struck by the dignified way in which they have responded. The level of commitment that they have shown in expressing their wish to work with us, to inform and shape the improvements required in maternity services, is testament to that. My priority now is to take every necessary action to meet their expectation that this does not happen to other families.

The independent oversight panel will be key in providing that assurance. Mick Giannasi, as panel chair, has begun his work immediately. I spoke to him yesterday, and he fully understands the responsibility of his role. Mick Giannasi and Cath Broderick, the author of the families report, will join with me next week when I meet the families. I want those families to have their say in shaping the work of the panel, but I also want to thank them personally for the way in which they have engaged with the review and for being prepared to share their experiences. I hope that they can take some comfort in knowing that they are being listened to, and that action will follow.

There is no denying that the standards that became the norm in parts of these maternity services are completely unacceptable. The failures in governance processes that meant that outcomes were not escalated to the board are equally unacceptable. I have made it clear to the health board Chair that I expect him and the board to fully consider how this happened, as it is a critical part of ensuring that we do not see a similar system failure in the future. I expect Cwm Taf Morgannwg board to do everything necessary to have robust governance arrangements in place from ward to board, and David Jenkins's role is to help them to achieve this.

The overriding requirement is to ensure the safety, care and well-being of mothers and babies receiving maternity services. That must include the more open culture and practice that Dawn Bowden identified, to replace the punitive culture that the report describes. It must equally include the improvements in practice, experience and outcomes that Vikki Howells referred to. The improvement that we all seek must be rapid and sustained, and that will be the driving force that guides my actions as I discharge my responsibilities. I'm determined that the whole of NHS Wales learns from these system failures. I'll make that clear to health board Chairs when I meet them tomorrow. They have been given two weeks to review the report's findings and report on their own services. So, I will receive those reports next week.

We all know that the vast majority of people receive excellent care from our health services, but there are occasions where things go wrong. That is sadly true of every healthcare system. We have shown that we will take decisive action to identify and respond to failings when they arise. We've learned lessons, developed and then adapted our approach to escalation and intervention as a result. We've commissioned research from the Wales Centre for Public Policy to further help inform our approach, drawing on international comparators, and we reflect on our own experience. So, I'm far from complacent. I will continue to take the advice of regulators, the independent panel, my officials and, as I have said, to seek the views of families as we respond to the failings identified by this report. So, I will continue to act.

I recognise that women and families, Members in this Chamber, and the wider public will continue to expect transparency, to see the actions identified by the independent royal colleges review fully implemented, to hear that maternity care in the former Cwm Taf area is safe, dignified, and meets the needs of women and their families, and to see that evidenced by the independent panel and by those receiving care. To see and hear the outcome of the independent panel that I have appointed. That independent panel will therefore report regularly, and I confirm that I will continue to update Members and the wider public on their work and their recommendations for future action.

As Members are aware, the work undertaken by the independent panel and David Jenkins will be complemented by the work of Healthcare Inspectorate Wales and the Wales Audit Office. Those bodies are independent of Government. They will set the terms of their own activity for themselves based on their analysis of the issues. And their findings will, as usual, be published.

Over the past week, there have been calls from a range of opposition Members for somebody to be sacked. As a result of the action that I have taken, the independent panel or board may find evidence of conduct that requires action by the employer or a professional regulator. In those circumstances, I expect them to act appropriately, but I have not—and will not require them to take action for my benefit. Their remit is to help improve our service, to help better serve our public. There are no silver bullets. That is why I chose to take the approach that I have announced. I made a choice, and I will not go back now to look for an alternative scalp for my benefit, to give false assurance, to give a false impression of a quick fix that would do little to deliver the improvements that women and their families expect and deserve.

A week ago, I published in full the independent royal colleges report that I commissioned. I set out the action that I am taking. I believe that women and their families who have been let down, women and families who still need maternity services, must be our focus. They certainly are mine.

Helen Mary Jones to reply to the debate.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. We celebrated, yesterday, 20 years of this place as a parliament. The function of a parliament is to hold a government to account, and I am therefore profoundly disappointed to have just heard the Minister describe this serious and, I thought, on the whole very dignified debate as a political bun fight. I have to say to the Minister that if we wanted a political bun fight, we could have one on a weekly basis. We have not chosen to do so.

I am very grateful to the majority of Members who have contributed to this debate. I can’t possibly refer to all their contributions, but what we have seen across those contributions is a pattern, and I am profoundly disappointed that the Minister cannot see that pattern. He says that he is committed that what happened to the Cwm Taf families won’t happen to other families. Well, as we heard from Darren Millar, it is very, very similar to what happened to the Tawel Fan families.

The Minister said he would not be drawn into making comparisons. It is profoundly worrying that he does not see the commonalities. It is his failure to see those commonalities, and it is his failure to address those commonalities—the failure of management across the system, the failure to hold people to account—that has led to us bringing this motion before us today.

Now, Dawn Bowden rightly highlights some of the issues. She says that service improvement must deal robustly with individuals. I do not understand, on the evidence of today’s debate or last week’s statement, why she has that confidence. And I was touched by Vikki Howells's contribution. She obviously feels deeply what has happened to her constituents. She knows the impact that that’s had on her life. And yet, she thanks the Minister. She rightly highlights failures. She talks about the lack of action by the board. She talks about a wrong approach. Surely, those board members need to be held to account.

Now, Llywydd, I have known many Members on the Labour benches for many years, and I know them to be honourable people. And I know them to be loyal. But I feel I have to ask them today to whom their loyalty is due. Is it due to a Minister—and I should stress this is in no way personal—who has failed to understand the commonalities of the problems facing him, and failed to respond appropriately? Or is it due to their constituents, the people of Wales? I do not underestimate how difficult this must be for some of them, but it is our duty, as an opposition loyal to the people of Wales, to call upon them to reflect.

Yesterday I met—I've spoken to a number of families over the phone and by email, but yesterday I met a young father. He believes that his wife and his child would be dead if he hadn't happened himself to be a medical professional, and to be able to pick up on some of the issues that the service was failing to address. He had received first-class support from one of his local Assembly Members. She knows who she is. I will not name her. He said to me that he is grateful to us for speaking out because he does not believe that the service can change while the same people who dismissed his concerns, who belittled his wife, who mocked her while she was in labour, and who, when he raised concerns, eventually threatened him with legal action—he does not believe that while those same people are still in charge, that service would change. That young mother is expecting another child. She will not give birth to that child in Cwm Taf.

It is the duty of this Assembly to scrutinise Ministers and to hold them to account. It is what we are here to do. This was the point of the creation of this Assembly. This is what democracy is about. Now I think, Llywydd, we know how the vote is likely to go today. But I can say this to these families, to the Cwm Taf families: on these benches, we will not forget you. That was the message from the young father to me yesterday—please don't forget us. Don't forget what's happened. On these benches, we will not forget you, and if the Minister will not take his responsibility, then through the committee structures, through debates on the floor of this Chamber, through questions, we will continue to hold the Minister to account for the shocking experiences of those families and for those children gone.

The health committee will shortly undertake scrutiny of Cwm Taf on these matters, and I have sought assurances from the Chair that the voices of those families will be at the heart of that scrutiny. We will not listen to nonsense from unaccountable bureaucrats. We will take those families' voices to the Minister, and I'm grateful for the fact that he is intending to meet them, but I wonder how safe they will feel to be truly open and honest with him, faced with the complacency he's displayed last week and this.

It is with great regret, Llywydd, that I have felt the need to bring this debate to this Chamber. I would infinitely prefer that the Minister could see the systematic failures across the management of the system and be prepared to address them. He has told us today he will not do that. So it will come down to us, to the opposition in this place, to be the voice of those families—[Interruption.]—and I will happily take an intervention if anybody wishes to make one. No? I thought not.

I will end—

Oh, get hold of yourself. 

I am perfectly in command of myself, Mr Waters. It seems to me that you may not be.

Allow Helen Mary to conclude her speech, please.

I have to end my contribution, Llywydd, by asking what level of failure by a public service in our nation will it take for a Labour Minister—and that's my only party political point today—what level of failure will it take for a Labour Minister to do the honourable thing?

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendments. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting on this item until voting time.

The next item, namely the Plaid Cymru debate on Tata Steel has been withdrawn.

That brings us to the UKIP debate on homeworking, and I call on Gareth Bennett to move the motion. Gareth Bennett.

Diolch, Llywydd. [Interruption.]

Make a start.

Thank you. Diolch again, Llywydd. Today's debate is on the subject of working from home, which hopefully Members will agree is an interesting topic and worthy of some Chamber time in which to investigate it. We in UKIP think that, in general, allowing more employees to work from home is a good objective, as long, of course, as that is what the employees themselves want to do. So I think we need to look at the levers we have here in the Assembly to see what we might do to facilitate a higher level of homeworking in Wales.

That is in essence what today's motion is about. It isn't particularly a partisan subject that needs to divide people along party lines. Today's motion is more about trying to find a consensus between the different parties here, as of course we always attempt to do in UKIP. So, I am approaching the amendments today with that in mind. 

The Government seem to be in broad agreement with our objectives. Their amendments only delete part of one of our four points. However, while that much is true, it does delete our wish for a specific Welsh Government strategy for homeworking within the successor project to Superfast Cymru. We do need Welsh Government ultimately to commit to specifics if we are to get anywhere with this mission. So, we don't agree with this amendment, although we recognise that it is the only bit that the Government is looking to amend. They aren't doing a 'delete all' on us on this occasion. So, that much is promising. 

The Conservative amendment raises the point that there can be disadvantages to homeworking. I'm not denying that homeworking won't necessarily work for everyone. So, the aim isn't to push people into homeworking against their will, but rather to make it easier for those people who would prefer to work from home to be able to do so. In fact, the point that is quoted in the Conservative amendment is from one part of a report that is generally favourable to the idea of homeworking. But, of course, we have to be mindful that we don't want to push people into something that they don't want to do. So, we accept the logic of the amendment and we will support the Conservative amendment today.

The driving force behind today's motion is new technology and the changes in lifestyle that may be enabled by new technology. The UK Government is currently mired in a very expensive transport project—I refer to HS2—which has been extremely controversial and which has been an albatross around the neck of the Westminster Government for almost the entire time it has been in office. Interestingly, although we may have almost forgotten this now, HS2 was actually the idea originally of the last Labour Government. It was first proposed in 2009 when Gordon Brown was still in office. Here in Wales, the Welsh Government has been in a similar muddle over the M4 relief road. This scheme has also had spiralling costs, which will inevitably impede other areas of spending if the project does ever actually get the go ahead.

The reason I mention these transport schemes is that, in a way, they may be almost redundant. I know that sounds strange when we have so much traffic congesting the roads, but a point to bear in mind is that, in some ways, investing in roads and railways is investing in old technology. It is investment that is predicated on a notion that countless millions of people will forever be needing to travel physically from one place to another on a daily basis in order to undertake their work. 

When you think about it, if we were to develop a reliable, fast broadband network throughout the UK, we wouldn't need so many people to be travelling on trains or cars or even on buses. We wouldn't need so many people travelling into an office every day if all of the work that they did in the office they could equally well undertake at home. Admittedly, of course, homeworking won't have much effect on manufacturing, processing or agricultural sectors. But of course administrative jobs have become a large part of the economy and homeworking could have a big effect on that sector. If contact is needed between the employee and the manager or middle manager, this can be facilitated these days by telephone, including by conference call or by Skype, by e-mail including via e-mail chains involving many people, and by other methods of electronic messaging.

I'm not suggesting that all office workers can work from home all of the time, but if we can cut down on the number of people travelling into work each day, that would help to ease the pressure on road and rail networks. However, currently, there may not be much incentive for companies to move towards more homeworking. For company bosses, introducing more homeworking might be regarded as something of a nuisance. That's why we have to think about using tax incentives and/or contractual processes to try and get companies to think more along these lines.

I have made some inquiries of the Welsh Government as to what they are doing precisely to encourage more homeworking. I have done two First Minister's questions on this subject, for instance. The responses I have received have been thus far, although broadly in agreement with the aims, somewhat vague as to the specifics. We do realise in UKIP that there is a big Welsh Government project going on to improve the quality and speed of broadband throughout Wales, and obviously that project will have a major effect on how far we can usher in an era of more homeworking. So, we do acknowledge that. But, as for specific schemes incentivising companies in Wales to introduce or extend homeworking, I haven't been able to locate any. Of course, I'm interested in the Minister's response today and, if I have overlooked important work that the Welsh Government is doing specifically in this area, then I will of course admit the error. But, certainly, I haven't been able to locate any Welsh Government work specific to this area.

I know that there is a business exploitation programme, which aims to highlight to Welsh small and medium-sized enterprises the advantages of using the better broadband connectivity once it exists in their area, and there is recent academic work that also highlights the commercial benefits of doing so. There is also a connection with the work being done by the Fair Work Commission, part of which is to try to get companies to think about outputs, rather than hours worked. This is another lever that might help companies to think about more homeworking, although, again, neither angle is specific to the precise issue of homeworking.

So, are there other things the Welsh Government could be doing? In the past, we were told that they would be facilitating the appointment of travel plan co-ordinators, who were supposed to be working with employers across Wales to encourage sustainable travel, and they would be encouraging things like car sharing, but also, more to the point for today's motion, video-conferencing and working from home. I've struggled, though, to find much information on these travel plan co-ordinators, and it may be an idea that is in danger of slipping through the cracks.

We are, in today's motion, asking for some specific measures, such as calling on the Welsh Government to ensure that all public bodies in Wales have a duty to include homeworking in the design of jobs and how those jobs are advertised and how people are recruited. We're also calling on the Welsh Government to develop a specific strategy for homeworking within the successor project to Superfast Cymru, to ensure that people who wish to work from home are not impeded by a lack of broadband access.

I mentioned the benefits to the transport system of encouraging more homeworking, and that isn't the only benefit, potentially. There is also the fact that one of the problems afflicting British industry is productivity. If people are working in an environment that is more pleasant to them, it may well be that output does go up, as long, of course, as homeworkers are properly trained to do the job and kept in the loop as regards ongoing training. There are also advantages for those with childcare or other caring responsibilities, who tend to be more likely to be women, and also those with physical disabilities of bringing in a work environment in Wales that is more receptive to homeworking.

These points have also been made by the Trades Union Congress general secretary, Frances O'Grady. She pointed out in May 2018 that the number of people regularly working from home in the UK the previous year was still only 1.6 million, a figure that had remained unchanged from the year before. She identified two reasons why homeworking has stalled. One was the UK's extremely variable broadband speeds, the other was that too many line managers still believe that workers can't be trusted without constant supervision. So, there is a bit of a cultural battle to be won with regard to the second point.

To some extent, people working in management also need to be convinced of the benefits of homeworking. Interestingly, though, 12 per cent of managers work from home on a permanent basis, but only about 2 per cent of employees do. Another startling statistic is that, in the UK, only 6 per cent of administrators work from home, even though many of their tasks could surely just as easily be performed remotely these days. So, throughout the UK, there is obviously a lot of work to be done on this issue. Perhaps we can try to lead the way on that here in Wales.

Thank you. I have selected two amendments to the motion, and I call on the Minister for Housing and Local Government to move amendment 1, formally, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans.

Formally.

Thank you. I call on Russell George to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. 

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and can I move amendment 2 in the name of my colleague Darren Millar?

You will note that we have not deleted any part of UKIP's motion. We agree with UKIP's motion as it has been laid. And I believe that there is, I suspect, broad consensus about the right to request flexible working, which is largely supported, I think, also by the business community as well. The objective of our amendment to this motion today is to ensure that the debate doesn't solely paint an exclusively positive picture, but also recognises the potential implications of flexible working arrangements, especially homeworking, which can potentially lead to occupational stress for some people and potential conflicts with co-workers who are not afforded the same flexibility.

This has been demonstrated by research from Professor Clarke and Dr Holdsworth of Manchester Business School in their report on flexibility in the workplace. So, it certainly is important, I think, that this debate and any future policy making in this area considers these potential ramifications, as well as the many potential benefits that have been pointed out by Gareth Bennett. And I agree with, I think, if not all of Gareth Bennett's comments in his opening remarks today, especially in regards to the connectivity issues that he points out, which are of course an obstacle for homeworking in many parts of Wales. Perhaps I'd urge Members after voting time to remain in the Chamber to listen to my colleague Paul Davies's short debate later this afternoon.

The 2017 Taylor review of modern working practices states, and I'm quoting here,

'Flexibility in the labour market is important and must be retained in order to keep participation rates high'.

So, it is important, I think, to reiterate what I said in last week's debate in ensuring that opposition to casual contracts from some in this Chamber does not have the unintended consequence of limiting the flexibility of workers, preventing employers from offering work patterns that suit their circumstances and meet customer demand at peak times, and, in turn, preventing employees from being able to work in a way that suits them.

It ought to be recognised, of course, that the UK Government's 'Good Work Plan' sets out a commitment to ensuring that all workers can secure fair and decent work. Again, I would point out that we on these benches agree with the motion put forward by UKIP today, and we hope that our amendment has added to this debate in a constructive way. 

Homeworking in certain circumstances can be very valuable for both employer and worker, but I just don't see the advantages claimed by this motion as actually being there. Homeworking obviously has to be carefully considered and not forced on employers or employees, whether they're in the private or public sector, but homeworking really, really isn't feasible for a lot of roles, particularly in the public sector where jobs are more likely to be public facing. Gareth was talking about administrative workers. I don't see how your average administration clerk would be able to effectively work from home. These roles tend to rely on an input and output of some sort of hard-copy documentation, so I just don't see how it would work for many, many classes of staff, even those who are normally based in an office. Again, with the public sector, those jobs tend to be more public facing so, again, I just don't see how it's feasible.  

The proposal I think is questionable on a number of fronts. I think for a start it's conflating homeworking with flexible working. When I talk about homeworking, I mean working at home during your standard hours as opposed to working in a central point. It doesn't mean necessarily an effective cut or rearrangement of working hours to allow for an improved work-life balance. Homeworking itself also doesn't necessarily bring flexibility for family responsibilities either, although inevitably it means that the work is accessible to the family at home, which, ironically, might actually increase the stress of working at home, because you're having to juggle family stuff and work things as well while trying to maintain a relationship with your team. 

As Darren Millar's amendment makes clear, there's a valid concern that working from home may add to stress levels rather than be of help, and I've mentioned one reason why that might be. But, ultimately, humans are social animals and not designed for living in isolation. Healthy teams have a sense of camaraderie and provide support for when that employee faces a work difficulty. And, again, achieving a healthy work balance is actually harder for homeworkers, because they don't have that psychological cut-off from work of leaving the workplace at the end of the day, or even if you take work home with you, you still at some point pack it away and that's it—that's your psychological cut-off for that day. Homeworkers don't have that kind of cut-off, because their work is actually in their home; it's more difficult for them to get away from it.

As far as increased access for disabled people is concerned, I fear that the proposal would be letting employers off the hook on making sure that they abide by disability equality laws. Organisations should already be making their workplaces accessible to all, not being given a get-out by offering homeworking as a way of saving themselves the expense and effort. And cutting pollution using homeworking isn't as clear-cut as it may first seem. Homeworkers will have to heat their homes for additional time, they're going to have to use additional electricity; that's going to come off their utility bills, not the employer's, and the employers normally would bear those costs. I don't think it's right to transfer costs that would normally be borne by the employer to workers. So, that's certainly a reason why it wouldn't be particularly popular with workers, I'd argue.

So, homeworking, of course, eliminates the commute and resulting pollution on the days that the worker works at home, but that cut in pollution will be more than outweighed by the pollution created by the duplication of resources that would otherwise be shared in the workplace, such as equipment, heating, lighting et cetera. As well, you're going to have additional equipment in the office, additional equipment at the home. It's a lot more complicated than I think the UKIP group think it is. We could also perhaps just as easily cut down on rush-hour congestion by persuading employers to stagger their operating hours, so that entire industrial estates aren't disgorging everyone onto the same roads at the same time. But you've got to get employers to co-operate with that.

And on a cost and practicality basis, I don't think there's any merit in requiring public bodies to include homeworking in the job design and recruitment. Much of the time, it'll be a wasted exercise. It will distract both time and money from the organisation that could be used to better perform their core function. And, as I said, lots of roles just aren't suitable for homeworking. As any business case grows for homeworking, I'm sure employers—those reasonable employers, that is—will look to provide it as part of the recruitment package without the idea being given to them by Gareth. A case for the Government to develop a specific strategy for homeworking within the successor project to Superfast Cymru hasn't been convincingly made, and I think Rebecca Evans's amendment does make a lot of sense. However, I won't be supporting the proposal today, amended or otherwise. I think it has a danger of overburdening public bodies, while not delivering the benefits it claims, and I also don't think it's a priority for people in Wales. Thank you.

Thank you. Can I now call the Minister for Housing and Local Government, Julie James?

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Now, as I said during my statement on fair work yesterday, we want Wales to be a place where everyone can access work that is decent and life enhancing, free of exploitation and poverty and where people have the opportunity to develop their skills and to progress. We are committed to delivering inclusive economic growth in Wales. We want thriving businesses, with workers benefiting through fair and secure, well-rewarded employment.

Social partnership provides a mechanism to help deliver this objective. Through involving Government, unions and businesses in decisions that help shape the working environment at both local and national level, we can work together to deliver a fairer economy. Welsh Government is fully committed to those objectives of social partnership. Working alongside the trade unions, we have taken a lead in the UK, promoting the importance of job security, decent pay and working conditions. The challenges we face mean we have to strengthen our social partnership model further, putting equality at its heart. We are committed to legislating, therefore, to put social partnership on that statutory footing we discussed only yesterday during my statement.

Alongside this work, the Welsh Government is promoting flexible working and other fair employment practices, doing this through our economic contract, the employability plan and the code of practice on ethical employment in supply chains by way of example. The Business Wales website provides information to employers on how to improve productivity through flexible working arrangements, and the Fair Work Commission was set up to advise us on what more we can do. It has completed its work and, as I said only yesterday during my statement, the report has been published and we will respond shortly.

The Fair Work Commission's call for evidence provided a prime opportunity for the Welsh public sector, the private sector and individuals across Wales to promote and provide views on fair work, including flexible working practices, and it is, as Russell George pointed out, very important to balance what is right for individuals as well as employers and businesses. Employee well-being, I agree with you entirely, is paramount, and Welsh Government is committed to ensuring fair and ethical working practices, while protecting the rights and responsibilities of individuals employed as well. Our economic contract, which is set out in our economic action plan, presents our opportunity to engage in dialogue with employers on issues that have the potential to support individuals as well as their businesses. It requires businesses seeking direct financial support to commit to a range of criteria, including fair work and the promotion of health, upskilling and learning in the workplace, and that includes promoting the adoption of flexible—or modern, as they're called, actually—working practices. All companies applying for direct business grant support from Welsh Government will need to demonstrate that they are committed to that fair work and to promoting health in the workplace—and by workplace, I of course also mean people's homes, if that is, in part, their workplace.

We also recognise that too few disabled people are in work. The commitments in our employability plan are aimed at tackling this. We will work with our partners to address the issues behind this, including employer attitudes, job design and working practices. We reaffirm our commitment to the social model of disability and to overcome the many and varied barriers that society can put in the way of disabled people in order for them to pursue their career aspirations. We know that there is no quick fix and action is indeed needed to overcome barriers such as transport, the attitudes of employers and, in some cases, employment practices, which can either directly or inadvertently discriminate against people with disabilities. We also know, though, that there are many employers who are exemplars and others can learn a lot about their good practice.

Within the Welsh Government, officials have set up an equalities working group for our employability plan. The first priority of that group is to look at disability and employment and to oversee activities supporting our commitments to reduce the disability employment gap. We recognise that the broader structures and culture of workplaces will have a direct impact on the employability of disabled people, and in the employability plan we commit to increasing the number of employers who place emphasis on creating workplaces that are inclusive and supportive environments, or 'disability confident', as we like to call them.

We are challenging employers to think creatively about how they design jobs and recruit the people to fill them, and if I might say also, that encompasses, actually, many of the views that we've heard here today. What we want to see is employers who are empowered to look at the output of their employees and not where they work or the hours that they work. So, an employee who is capable of producing the outputs necessary, can do the job well, and if they do that job from home or in work or a combination of both of those, that should make absolutely no difference. 

We continue to work closely with the UK Government through its work and health unit and the Department for Work and Pensions to link up with the delivery of their UK-wide target to get more than 1 million more disabled people into work by 2027. We definitely want to see more positive results being delivered for more disabled people and for those with limiting health conditions across Wales. Welsh Government, to that end, is exploring the potential for a disability employment champion network. The role will be to work with employers across Wales to help recognise the talents of disabled people and to encourage inclusive recruitment practices. In doing so, we will work with the disability sector, employers and stakeholders to ensure we establish an inclusive approach in the recruitment and employment process. But we should also remember, as various people have pointed out, that not everyone wants to work from home and there is a need to develop fully inclusive workplaces for those who wish to work at a workplace.

Turning to the Superfast Cymru successor project and the broadband issue, I quite agree that where it's possible and desirable we should ensure the technology is in place to enable this. Superfast Cymru—I'll just remind everyone—fundamentally altered the broadband landscape in Wales, bringing superfast broadband to areas of Wales that simply would not ever have been connected without the project. We need to recognise the significant achievement that this large-scale engineering project represented, and as a result of it, homes and businesses the length and breadth of Wales enjoy the benefits of the investment and the access to digital services. The vast majority of premises in Wales can now access the Superfast broadband service compared to barely half five years ago. And in those areas, both businesses and individuals are now enjoying the benefits that fast broadband brings, including the ability to work from home or more flexibly or on an output basis. However, Members will also be aware that there's more to do to reach the remaining premises that are not yet able to benefit from fast broadband. Given the scale of the task in providing fast, reliable broadband to those premises currently unable to access it, we will need a range of interventions in future, and that's why our amendment specifically deletes one line, only because we want a range of interventions, not just the successor programme. Because there is no one-size-fits-all solution, we need to make sure that these interventions are complementary, address the remaining need for fast broadband, and reflect local demand for services. There are three elements to our approach: individual support through our voucher schemes, support for communities through our voucher schemes and community-led interventions, and publicly funded roll-outs through the successor project to Superfast Cymru. Therefore, the successor project fills one part of that suite of interventions, as I said.

An initial 26,000 premises will be provided by access to fast, reliable broadband by March 2021, at a cost of nearly £22.5 million to the public purse, but we are also investigating with BT whether future premises can be added to that project. We're also committed to providing individual support to those premises unable to access fast broadband by continuing the Access Broadband Cymru scheme. We also announced earlier this year that agreement had been reached with the UK Government to provide additional funding for premises in Wales through the UK Government's gigabit broadband voucher scheme, and for group projects, the Welsh Government will pay up to an additional £3,000 per small to medium-sized business and an additional £300 per residential property. This means that for group projects in Wales, up to £5,500 is available per business and up to £800 is available per residential property.

In addition to our interventions, the UK Government are also devising a new programme to tackle rural and very rural premises. And given the significant challenges posed by the geography as Wales, it is vital that Wales benefits from those new opportunities.

So, Deputy Presiding Officer, we are committed to creating a better working future for everyone in Wales. We agree with the motion in large, but there's a small, minor amendment for a technical reason, but other than that, I'm pleased to say that there seems to be a consensus that everyone here is committed to creating a better working future for everyone in Wales. Diolch.

Thank you very much. I call on Gareth Bennett to reply to the debate.

Thanks, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thanks to the participants in what was an interesting debate. Thanks to Russell George, who said that the Conservative group broadly supported the aims of today's motion. And as I said in my opening remarks, I understood the logic of their amendments and we were supportive of their amendments. Now, Russell did raise some of the potential difficulties of homeworking that we should be mindful of. They were points that were also taken up by Michelle, and more fulsomely, I would say, in Michelle's case; she certainly was not so enthusiastic.

Now, we have to appreciate there are potential downsides, of course. Issues that have been mentioned, even by advocates of more homeworking, have included potential social isolation and lack of camaraderie of employees and feeling out of the loop. Conflict with other workers was a point that Russell raised specifically, and Michelle also—well, she mentioned a number of things. Now, these are all very valid issues, and we do have to be mindful of them, but the point of the motion today was that people should be enabled to work at home if they want to do so. It wasn't about people being forced to work from home. And I did make that clear in the opening remarks and I'd like to reassert those points.

Now, the Government response—thank you for your broad support, and I accept that you feel the need to amend it for the reasons that the Minister gave. Now, we do accept that Superfast Cymru has been a good programme. There are considerable difficulties with the physical geography of Wales, and providing a very good broadband speed and a reliable broadband speed is, of course, probably the major issue that will allow us to move forward with more homeworking. Lots of general things from the Government to do with equalities and fair work practices, which, of course, are good objectives, but we would like some more commitment, if possible, to the actual specifics of working from home in future. So, hopefully, we will get that and we can move forward with this and develop some specific measures to improve homeworking, but thanks for participating and diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Thank you. Therefore, we defer voting under this item until voting time.

I do now propose to go to voting time, unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung. No. Right.

We turn to voting time, then, and the first vote this afternoon is on the Welsh Conservative debate on e-sports. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. If the proposal is not agreed, we vote on the amendments tabled to that motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion 24, no abstentions, 30 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

We now go to vote on the amendments and I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 30, no abstentions, 24 against, therefore amendment 1 is agreed.

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amended motion 52, one abstention, one against, therefore the motion is agreed.

We now move to vote on the Plaid Cymru debate on health boards. And again I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. If the proposal is not agreed to, we will vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion 23, no abstentions, 31 against, therefore the motion is not agreed.

We move to vote on the amendments and I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 30, no abstentions, 24 against, therefore amendment 1 is agreed.

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amended motion 41, one abstention, 12 against, therefore the amended motion is agreed. 

We now move to vote on the UKIP debate on homeworking, and again I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Gareth Bennett. If the proposal is not agreed to, we will vote on the amendment tabled to the motion. Therefore, I call for a vote on the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion four, no abstentions, 50 against, therefore the motion is not agreed.

I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 30, eight abstentions, 15 against, therefore amendment 1 is agreed.

I now call for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 45, one abstention, eight against, therefore amendment 2 is agreed.

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended. 

Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amended motion 43, 10 abstentions, one against, therefore the amended motion is agreed.

We now move to the short debate, so if Members are not stopping for the short debate, can you please leave quickly and quietly? If Members are not staying in for the debate, can they leave quickly and quietly? We now move to the short debate and I call on Paul Davies to speak to the topic he has chosen—Paul Davies.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm pleased to once again take the opportunity to raise the issue of broadband connectivity in this Chamber, and I'm happy to give Russell George a minute of my time. 

Aside from the issue of protecting services at Withybush hospital, the issue of broadband connectivity is, without a shadow of a doubt, the most frequently raised matter amongst my constituents, and has been since I was elected to this place back in 2007. Whilst I accept that the Welsh Government has announced funding to expand broadband services throughout the whole of Wales, it is essential that the needs of those with limited broadband or no broadband at all will be met and not neglected at the expense of delivering superfast broadband in other areas. People in rural areas of Wales, and particularly people living in Pembrokeshire, continue to struggle to achieve basic broadband provision, while some people living in other areas are now moving forward and enjoying superfast broadband services.

Superfast broadband coverage in Wales has increased to 93 per cent of homes and businesses from 89 per cent last year, according to Ofcom's 'Connected Nations 2018' report, and so, whilst I accept that some progress is being made, much more needs to be done to tackle those areas left with substandard broadband provision. I'm sure that the Deputy Minister will agree with me that it's absolutely crucial that areas like Pembrokeshire are brought up to speed to enable local communities to be on an even playing field with the rest of Wales, and indeed the rest of the United Kingdom.

According to the Welsh Government's own figures, £85 million has been allocated for the second phase of Openreach's efforts to roll out an adequate broadband service across Wales. Now, we know that phase 2 of the project is expected to cost £22 million, which would leave over £60 million left in Openreach's pocket. I understand that, in responding to recent questions on this specific matter from my colleague Russell George, the Deputy Minister confirmed that he was not aware of how the surplus money will be used, as the Government is still thinking through the implications of how to do just that. Therefore, perhaps, in responding to today's debate, at the very least the Deputy Minister will now commit to providing a breakdown of exactly how much money will be spent in each local authority area so that, in the interests of transparency, the people of Wales can see where the money will be targeted and how their communities will be prioritised once the Welsh Government makes a decision on how to move forward.

Now, Members will remember the 2012 Welsh Affairs Select Committee report into broadband in Wales, which found that

'Increasingly, reliable internet access is seen as a driver of economic performance and vital for business, education and people living alone or in isolated areas.'

Indeed, that's certainly the case in my constituency, where small businesses and farmers have been disadvantaged by limited broadband coverage. That Welsh Affairs Select Committee report highlighted evidence from the Country Land and Business Association, who argued that, and I quote:

'Without broadband, rural areas will continue to struggle, this being exacerbated by Government efforts to digitalise most forms of administration, such as the single farm payment and the whole-farm approach.' 

Unquote. Indeed, the annual National Farmers Union broadband and mobile survey also showed that 45 per cent believe their current speed is not fast enough for their business needs. At this point, it's worth reminding Members that farmers in Wales are having to become increasingly reliant on online services and applications, and so it is crucial that they have adequate access. In areas like Pembrokeshire, farming is a hugely important industry for the local area, and so it is crucial that those farmers have every tool possible to help their businesses continue to flourish. Therefore, the Welsh Government must redouble its efforts to provide adequate broadband in rural areas so that these farmers can continue to be competitive in the future.

However, it's not just farmers in Pembrokeshire that are struggling, but small businesses, families and even a school. As Members will be aware, Pembrokeshire enjoys a healthy tourist industry, largely made up of smaller accommodation providers and food and drink businesses. It goes without saying that those businesses desperately need to be able to market themselves online in order to attract and generate business and to attract visitors from other parts of the UK and, indeed, from all over the world.

Dennis O'Connor, tourism liaison manager for Pembrokeshire Tourism recently said, and I quote, 'Tourism is worth circa £585 million annually to the Pembrokeshire economy, but, in order for future growth to be achieved, tourism providers need to have a good connectivity to be able to maintain or increase market share. They are no longer able to rely upon destination marketing being undertaken by the local authority, because of shrinking budgets, which means increased emphasis is on the business to carry the burden.' Unquote.

It remains the case that Pembrokeshire's tourist operators are at a disadvantage compared with other parts of Wales, and certainly the rest of UK.

Now, the 2017 digital exclusion heatmap by Go ON UK has identified Pembrokeshire as one of the Welsh counties where digital exclusion is high. It shows that 3,747 households in Pembrokeshire do not receive broadband speeds of at least 10 Mbps, with just over 13 per cent of adults in the county having not been online in the last three months.

Once again, yet another report that makes for grim reading if you live in Pembrokeshire, and it again reminds us that Pembrokeshire continues to lag behind other areas. And the seriousness of that digital exclusion cannot be overstated. Sadly, one of the most serious and pressing matters relating to broadband provision in Pembrokeshire is at Ysgol Llanychllwydog in north Pembrokeshire, which continues to hold the title for being the only school in the entire country not to have access to broadband. Earlier this year, the school's headteacher, Mrs Lawrence, said, and I quote:

'It's important to me that a child has the same rights and access to education wherever they are.'

Unquote. And she's absolutely right. Whilst I appreciate that the location of the school provides a particular challenge, surely the fact that this is the only school in Wales without broadband should be a wake-up call. It's simply unacceptable that in 2019 there are learners at a disadvantage simply because the school that they attend does not have an adequate broadband provision. However, I do understand that some progress is currently being discussed, and perhaps, in responding to this afternoon's debate, the Deputy Minister could update the Chamber on what immediate steps the Welsh Government are taking to ensure that the problems at Ysgol Llanychllwydog are now addressed as soon as possible. If urgent action isn't taken to address these problems, then learners living in rural areas like Pembrokeshire will continue to fall behind, and this will affect children's education.

Now, as I said earlier, I accept that the Welsh Government has committed to resolving Wales's digital connectivity problems and that additional money has been allocated to addressing those communities that cannot access superfast broadband. However, it's also important that all communities across Wales feel engaged in the process and that there is a healthier interaction with service providers, and so I hope the Deputy Minister will do all that he can to actually facilitate this.

Now, as the Deputy Minister is aware, I've received concerns from people in Pembrokeshire who genuinely believe that service providers aren't doing enough to help communities access better broadband services, and that is deeply worrying. A constituent recently sent me this message, and I quote: 'We are still all suffering with download speeds around the 1 Mbps to 1.5 Mbps download. Very occasionally it can reach close to 2 Mbps download. We all feel we are totally forgotten. Banks close locally, shops close. Our internet speeds are so low it is sometimes difficult, if not impossible, to use the internet to do online banking. We have to drive further and further to use banks, shops and other services that are available online. We were supposed to have a smart meter fitted, and a technician drove from Llanelli to fit one. There was not sufficient mobile coverage or internet to make this work. Our mobile phones only work here if they are set to "internet Wi-Fi calls".' Unquote. 

I think it's fair to say that better engagement and support for rural communities is now vital in moving Wales forward, and service providers have a role in strengthening their relationships with local communities. Therefore, I extend an invitation to the Deputy Minister to come to Pembrokeshire, to meet with people directly affected by substandard broadband services, so that he can tell them first hand exactly what the Welsh Government will be doing to address their specific concerns.

As I understand it, currently only 375 properties in Pembrokeshire will be taken forward as part of the Superfast 2 project. The disappointing announcement comes against a backdrop of Pembrokeshire being eighteenth out of 22 counties in Wales who have access to superfast broadband. I think it's fair to say that, yet again, Pembrokeshire remains one of the lowest constituency areas for the next roll-out phase, and that begs the question why. Surely it's time for the Welsh Government to redouble its efforts and ensure that those areas that have previously not been served by previous roll-out phases are now actually prioritised. 

For many communities in Pembrokeshire, people are asking to simply be put on a level playing field with other parts of Wales. Until then, Assembly Members like myself and other politicians will continue to receive correspondence telling us that the lack of broadband in their local area has left people isolated and businesses being less commercially competitive. 

Let me also remind the Deputy Minister that areas like Pembrokeshire are also seeing a particularly high number of bank closures. We know that Barclays will close its Milford Haven branch in July, and that follows on from previous bank closures in recent years from NatWest, HSBC and Lloyds. In fact, the town of Fishguard is now a town without a single bank, which, considering the strategic importance of the town to the regional and national economy, is simply staggering. So, without access to a decent broadband service, many people living in these communities feel unable to make the simplest of banking transactions without having to travel further afield. Dirprwy Lywydd, that is simply not how twenty-first century Wales should be.

Therefore, in closing, something urgently needs to take place. I'm sure that we'd all agree that, in modern times, a successful economy is dependent on a fast and efficient broadband service. However, rural areas like Pembrokeshire must not be left behind. Sadly, while some parts of Wales are taking steps in the right direction, limited broadband coverage in my constituency is disadvantaging farmers, businesses and local communities. So, it's essential that no stone is left unturned in ensuring that communities in Pembrokeshire have access to a decent broadband service. Therefore, the Welsh Government must ensure that its digital policies fully take into consideration the needs of communities right across Wales. When substantial amounts of money are being allocated, a detailed strategy must be delivered, delivering much-needed broadband services for those living in rural areas. My message is quite simple here this afternoon, Dirprwy Lywydd: Pembrokeshire must not be left behind. My constituents deserve a broadband service fit for the twenty-first century.  

I'd like to thank Paul Davies for allowing me a minute of his time in this debate today. It remains the case that 13 per cent of premises in Montgomeryshire are unable to receive decent broadband connectivity, and the urban-rural divide only frustrates people all the more. What frustrates people further is when they see infrastructure hanging from poles but not being able to access that infrastructure—so near but yet so far.

The Deputy Minister will, no doubt, talk about phase 2 of the project, but I would point out that 10,000 premises in Montgomeryshire are yet to receive any kind of superfast broadband. Only 11 per cent of those 10,000 properties—just 11 per cent—will be serviced by phase 2; 89 per cent will not be. So, it would be useful if the Welsh Government could confirm now that they will consider providing financial assistance to meet the excess cost in part or in full if the cost of providing broadband to a property is above the universal service obligation cost threshold of £3,400.

Paul Davies invited you to his constituency to speak to constituents about broadband issues. I would like to offer the same invitation myself to Montgomeryshire. I thank Paul Davies for using his time in this short debate today to highlight the plight of broadband when it comes to issues in rural Wales.

Thank you. I now call on the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport to reply to the debate. Lee Waters.

Thank you very much. I'm delighted to be invited by so many Members to be shouted at by their constituents in village halls across Wales. I've already had the pleasure in Carmarthenshire, and in the next couple of weeks I'm going to Breconshire, where I shall also meet very frustrated people, and I completely understand their frustration.

The Minister for housing very generously recounted much of the Government's position in her winding-up speech in the last debate, so I shan't go through the litany of achievements that the Welsh Government has done—in the space of five years doubling the number of premises in Wales that have access to superfast broadband. But, just to note, there has been considerable improvement. I do want to make three points. I appreciate the constructive way that the Member has made his case, and I'd like to respond in kind, but I think there are three points that do need to be made.

First of all, this is not a devolved area. This is no small matter. In any telecommunications revolution, the pace of change has been rapid but it hasn't been even. It took some time for telephone poles to go up all over Wales and for television aerials too. The same is true of this telecommunications revolution. It is particularly hard to reach rural areas. It is more expensive than it is to reach urban areas. The geography and the topography are very difficult, and that has a very real and very practical impact. This is something that has to be dealt with on a UK-wide basis until it's devolved.

Now, unfortunately, the UK Government have not taken the view of treating broadband as a key utility. I agree with what Paul Davies said: in modern times, we expect the ability to connect quickly to a fast online service to be able to reach the services that we all now take for granted. That is why there should be a genuine universal service obligation. Just as Royal Mail has to deliver a postcard down the end of a farm track in the same way as it does in a row of terraces in an urban centre, or electricity has to be provided to everywhere that wants it, the same should be the case of broadband, but it is not. The UK Government has refused to treat broadband in the same way as it treats other utilities. I think that that is a mistake, and I certainly welcome the support of the leader of the Welsh Conservatives to make the case to his own Government for a change of view. And we would certainly work together on that one.

They have announced something they call the universal service obligation, which is not quite what it seems on the surface, because it is a right to request a connection, not a right to have one. And the amount of money that is able to be claimed is far short of the amount of money that would be needed. You’re only able to request a download speed of 10 Mbps and claim up to £3,400. Anything on top of that has to be funded by themselves. Now, that is not by any common sense definition a universal service obligation. We think it should be set at 30 Mbps and there should be no threshold financially of that order.

So, I think it is legitimate to point out that it’s not devolved. We do recognise its vital impact; that is why we have been willing to spend devolved moneys on trying to intervene where the market and where the Government have failed. We have spent £200 million of Welsh Government and EU funding in the last five years on the Superfast Cymru broadband scheme, and that is money that is not available for schools and hospitals and public services, because we've had to intervene where the UK Government has not. So, I think it’s only fair to recognise the efforts the Welsh Government has made in an area where it shouldn’t be having to do any activity at all, because it is the responsibility of the UK Government.

The second point to make is that there is failure of the market here. Paul Davies mentioned the phenomenon we're seeing, where service providers are falling over themselves to get even faster speeds to people in urban settings and are not interested in providing any speeds to people in some rural settings. Now, that is a market failure. We hear often from the benches there of the importance of allowing the market to be supreme, and this is what happens when the market is supreme: there is exclusion.

Now, we did put on the table a further £80 million in what is known to Members who correspond regularly as lot 2. We said there was £80 million for the market to bid for, to reach those properties that had not been reached under the Superfast project. And of the £80 million we made available to be bid into, only £26 million has been bid for by Openreach, able to spend by 2021. So, the market itself is not interested in getting public subsidy to reach those premises they’ve yet to reach under the previous programme that we funded. So, we have a problem. It’s not that the money isn’t there or that we’re not willing to spend it, even though it’s not devolved. It is there. We’ve made that choice, but we simply don’t have the private sector partners willing to spend and reach deep into the areas that we want to reach. Paul Davies has mentioned that, even though Pembrokeshire under Superfast has the third highest level of spending in the whole of Wales, with £15 million in Pembrokeshire alone, under the next scheme, only 300 or so premises are going to be included in lot 2, and that is deeply disappointing. It’s certainly not a situation that we want to see.

But I think that we need to confront the fact that the market’s appetite, even with subsidy, for reaching premises with fibre-to-the-premises broadband is coming to an end. And many of these premises—let’s bear in mind, 20 per cent of premises in Wales don’t have a gas connection, and yet we are expecting them to have fibre-to-the-premises superfast broadband, and it’s simply not going to happen in the short term. Now, if the UK Government is willing to step in and have a genuine universal service obligation, then that could be done, but the Welsh Government alone cannot do that, and I think we need to be honest about that and confront it.

So, my third point is: what can we do? And we are working closely with the UK Government; we’ve agreed to top up their gigabit broadband voucher scheme, so there is a much more generous subsidy available now in Wales than there is in England, because the UK Government and the Welsh Government have worked together. And it's under that gigabit connectivity programme that the school that Paul Davies mentioned, Ysgol Llanychllwydog, will be connected, we expect, by the start of the academic year. But that is a project that's been done directly with the UK Government. That's not something that the Welsh Government has been involved in, but hopefully they'll be able to get a connection for when they're back after the summer break.

We are looking now at non-conventional interventions, as I say, because we do think that fibre to the premises is reaching the limits of what the market is willing to provide. There's a very interesting project in Nick Ramsay's constituency, in Monmouth, where they're using what's called tv white space to deliver speeds of up to 10 Mbps. This is using the old analogue tv signal where gaps were left between the channels to allow for interference, and in that white space they're able to transmit broadband signals up to 10 Mbps. I've been to visit the village scheme that Monmouthshire council are doing a very good job in running, and it looks very promising. The advantage of using the tv signal is that it is able to reach across hills and into valleys in a way that fibre to the premises is clearly going to find very expensive and very difficult to do. So, a project like that, I think, does have significant potential, and we'd certainly be willing—[Interruption.] I'm happy to take an intervention if I'm allowed, Llywydd. 

Thanks for giving way, Deputy Minister. You're quite right—I'm aware of that project as well, and perhaps sometimes we do spend too much time worrying and focusing on the traditional ways of delivering broadband where, in certain rural areas, where it's going to be very expensive and very difficult to connect people up, perhaps what you just said, the use of white space, is one innovative area the Welsh Government could look at. 

Absolutely. It is being trialled, and they are certainly having issues about the stability of the connection, but the level of intervention is minimal—it's just a small aerial on the side of the house. Similarly, using 3G and 4G is a way of getting broadband to lots of people, which could be a lot more realistic and doable than fibre to the premises. So, we would certainly be keen to work with Pembrokeshire council to see if we can roll out the learning from the Monmouthshire project to Pembrokeshire. I know Carmarthenshire council, for example, have themselves employed somebody to work with communities to try and access the various vouchers that are available, which we provide and the UK Government provide. But it is often difficult for communities to be able to organise and access these funds, and it's right, I think, that local authorities recognise their role in this too. I see a number of local authorities now doing that, and I've mentioned already the good work happening in Monmouthshire.

So, I think there are things that we can do, but simply bemoaning the failure of the Welsh Government to reach communities in an area that is not devolved, in an area that the market has decided it isn't able to serve, when we have spent over £200 million already, and put more money on the table that the market isn't interested in accessing—I think it's only fair to give that account, too. But we are trying our best. My officials and I work patiently with Members when they do get in touch with correspondence to try and offer as much of a personal service as we can to overcome these practical difficulties. So, I think, in all fairness, we are doing what we can, but this is a really difficult issue. It is not a simple issue, and as I say, we are at a time of incredible pace of change and it is difficult to spread these benefits evenly. 

But to return to the point the Member made, I entirely agree that we must try harder to do it, because it is an essential service, and I'd like to work together, so far as we can, with local authorities, the UK Government and Members of all parties to give this essential service to all parts of Wales. 

Thank you very much. That brings today's proceedings to a close.