National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon. Before we begin, an issue arose during voting time yesterday evening where a Member voted whilst in a vehicle, which is contrary to the guidance that has been provided to Members. The Member has apologised to me, and I have decided that the vote will stand on this occasion.

I do want to take this opportunity, therefore, to reiterate the guidance related to participation in votes during proceedings. To be clear, no Member should vote whilst in a vehicle, on public transport or whilst travelling. That is what will be implemented from here on in.

Item 1, therefore, is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales. The first question is from Vaughan Gething.

I have regular discussions with Network Rail and UK Government Ministers regarding improvements to rail infrastructure in Wales. I'm delighted that the UK Government are funding the improvements necessary in south Wales to enable the delivery of the Burns stations and Cardiff parkway.

Thank you. As you know and you've mentioned, Cardiff parkway is a significant economic development opportunity that is enabled by a new railway station. It is the largest new economic growth project in Wales today. The new station, as you've also referenced, is part of the Burns delivery plan, and has the benefit of planning approval, which the other new Burns stations do not currently have. The track itself is and will remain a UK asset, and it will require work to ensure that the station functions and enables that wider development. Can you confirm whether the UK Government has agreed to fund that specific work on the track and, if it has, when it is likely to start?

Can I thank the Member for his question, and say 'yes'? Yes, I can confirm that. Cardiff parkway is, obviously, a vitally important station as part of the overall Burns proposals for south-east Wales—proposals aimed at alleviating congestion on the M4. I'm working very closely with the UK Government on the delivery of the south Wales main line upgrades to enable those new stations and services. I did recently write to the leader of Cardiff Council, and I welcomed his ongoing support for the Cardiff parkway development and the significant economic and connectivity benefits that it could deliver for the region.

Network Rail are working to complete the final business case and final design for the upgrade of the south Wales relief lines, and this scheme has been fully funded in the spending review and is essential to enable the delivery of the new Burns stations and Cardiff parkway. It will start and it will be completed in this spending period. I think what's crucially important is that it will mean that more passenger and freight services can operate on the line and call at those new stations, and it'll help deliver alternatives to having to drive on the M4. Important also is the fact that that money, that £445 million, will also help to unlock further investment in future spending rounds to deliver additional stations and additional improvements across the Wales and borders network.

Cabinet Secretary, the Cardiff parkway railway station will undoubtedly be a major asset to the city and to the east of Cardiff. It will provide residents with much needed access to rail services and offer a significant boost to local businesses. However, a key concern that's been raised with me is car parking. Many commuters who plan to use the station will be driving there. If dedicated parking is limited or prohibitively expensive, they may resort to parking on nearby residential streets. This is already a widespread issue in many cities and, without proper planning, it risks becoming a serious problem for local communities. Can you outline what measures are being taken to ensure Cardiff parkway offers sufficient and affordable parking for daily users? And what discussions have you had with Cardiff Council to prevent surrounding estates from being overwhelmed by station-related parking? Thank you.

Thank you. As I said, I recently wrote to the leader of Cardiff Council and I welcomed his support for the project, his interest in the project—indeed, the interest of the Cardiff capital region in this project. I know that parking is something that the partners involved in this particular programme of works are very seriously considering. They want to make sure that they can incentivise as many people as possible to use that station, to drive up usage on the railway line, and to ensure that we generate as much economic benefit for the area as possible through new business development there. I do welcome those positive and collaborative discussions that are taking place right now to discuss potential development options for Cardiff parkway station. As I say, parking is a key concern and a key consideration in those discussions.

We are committed to improving transport links between north and south Wales, including through our TrawsCymru bus routes. Reopening the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth line remains an option, but the use of planning protections on the corridor would have very significant potential costs to landowners and communities.

Well, four years ago, the Welsh Government, in the co-operation agreement, did commit to looking into protecting possible travel corridors along the west Wales coast. Transport for Wales, in its last two annual plans, have talked about continuing to investigate measures and working to identify requirements to protect the alignment between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth. Minister, why don't you actually use the power, which only you have, really, to introduce a hard protection, through a Transport and Works Act 1992 Order, or through a safeguarding direction of the Town and Country Planning 1990 Act? Unless that happens, then you're removing for the future any realistic possibility of reintroducing the railway connection between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth.

Can I thank the Member for his supplementary question? I think it's important just to reflect on why we're having this debate. People generally hanker after rail services over bus services because they see rail services as being there for the long term, whereas, under the failed deregulated environment that we live in on the bus network, we see bus services come and go, based on when commercial operators decide they're not worthy of maintaining because they're not generating enough profit. Through our bus Bill, and through the TrawsCymru network, we are addressing that cultural and historic challenge to the bus network in the way that the public perceive it. We're determined to ensure that we develop more services like the TrawsCymru services that are proving to be incredibly popular. We're keenly examining the possibility of express services as well, between key towns such as Aberystwyth and Carmarthen.

But putting land protections in place for the reopening of sections of railway lines can risk creating blight to landowners, it can have a potential economic cost to communities, and there would also be the obvious ongoing resourcing cost to maintain the protections. I'm not convinced that it would be a responsible use of taxpayers' money whilst we are still examining the line as an option for reopening in the future. But, in the meanwhile, I'm keenly pursuing alternatives, based on bus transport, which I think are proving to be incredibly popular. The TrawsCymru network has seen a huge increase in patronage. It's a reliable network, it's there for the long run, and, through bus reform, I'm confident that we will see other bus routes, as part of that base network across Wales, secured for the long term.

I listened to your answer with keen interest, because Hywel Dda University Health Board is currently going through, or has been going through, a consultation on centralising some of its critical services across the Hywel Dda area, including moving some services from Bronglais hospital in Aberystwyth to Glangwili hospital in Carmarthen, with no direct rail link. So, given that the T1 service currently takes one hour and 39 minutes to go—. You mentioned the possibility of an express link. I've previously written to you and your predecessor on the need for an express link, linking the two towns. Can you give us a little bit more detail on that? How far along the journey—pardon the pun—are we in bringing in an express service, because these two towns need to be connected? In lieu of a rail service, bus is the next best thing.

Actually, Sam Kurtz makes a really important point—that the TrawsCymru networks serve those communities that are not served by an existing rail network, an existing rail route. On the express services that I've mentioned already, we're looking into how we can deploy those as part of the reform to bus services across Wales. Once we receive Royal Assent on the bus Bill, it will enable us to have complete control over the bus network and to be able to integrate fully the Traws network into existing routes. So, the work is ongoing. There won't be an immediate solution to the problem, because we have to first of all get the powers, through the bus Bill, to be able to control the network. In the meanwhile, we're looking at the cost-effectiveness of potential express service, and I will update Members as soon as we make further progress.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Sam Rowlands.

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, the latest British Transport Police report shows that violence against women and girls on the rail network is rising, with over 11,000 offences recorded last year. In Wales, sexual offences on trains and at stations are up 29 per cent in the last year alone. So, what specific steps are being taken to make rail travel safer for women and girls across Wales?

Well, can I thank Sam Rowlands for his question? It's a hugely important issue. It's something that we're taking very seriously—so too British Transport Police and Network Rail. The Member may be aware that, recently, I published the 'Travel for all' strategy, which aims to ensure that movement by all forms of transport and through active travel is safe and reliable and that public services are punctual and can be depended on. 

What we found is that, particularly for women and people who face disabling barriers, the lack of safe, convenient and well-maintained infrastructure is a major factor when deciding whether or not to move around. And that's why, for this year, we've insisted that as much active travel funding as possible is spent on making upgrades in streets, on the ground, rather than having it spent on bureaucracy and administration. That means improving kerbs, and it means having tactile paving, it means dropping kerbs, it means improving pavements, installing seating and, crucially, making sure that we have well-lit, safe bus stops and safe routes to and from public transport.

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. I'm certainly grateful for any action being taken in this area, because the reality is that too many stations across Wales still don't have the lighting or CCTV or onsite presence needed to make people, and women in particular, feel safe and to deter any harmful behaviour.

The latest British Transport Police report also highlights another serious issue—and I'll declare an interest at this point as having a family member who works for Transport for Wales—and that issue is the ongoing levels of violence and anti-social behaviour faced by rail staff. Verbal abuse, physical assaults and harassment have sadly become part of the job for far too many, especially on late-night services and at busy stations. This isn't just a workplace safety problem; it creates a wider atmosphere of fear and disorder that affects everyone using the network. Both British Transport Police and unions have raised serious concerns about the risks staff face, particularly those working alone or without visible back-up. So, what specific support is the Welsh Government providing to help rail operators and British Transport Police address assaults on staff and improve the response to violent incidents at high-risk stations across Wales? 

Llywydd, another excellent question. Bodycams, obviously, are part of the solution, but a lot of staff choose not to wear them for various reasons. There are cultural problems within the country as well, and behavioural problems that are pretty clear. Violence is often associated with certain events as well. We know that domestic abuse, for example, increases when there are rugby internationals, and the same applies with violence towards workers on public transport—that it's around major events often that we see frustrations boiling over. But it is there, day in, day out, and this is an issue that's been raised by the unions, and it was as a result of the issue being raised by union leaders that we decided to convene, this autumn, a safety in public transport summit. That's going to take place in Pontypridd. Given the Member's keen interest in this area of work, I'll extend an invitation to Sam Rowlands to attend and, indeed, to the opposition spokesperson for Plaid Cymru.

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. I certainly look forward to that invite to see what action can be taken to see these issues addressed. And in sticking to this theme of crime on our rail network, the number of recorded crimes has gone up, as I've already explained, but there's still a major issue with under-reporting, especially when it comes to what may be described as some low-level assaults. Even when incidents are reported, prosecution rates remain low, and British Transport Police report, and wider public data show, that a large proportion of violence and sexual offences on trains or railway network ends with no suspect ever being charged. Of course, you will appreciate the importance of victims being able to trust the system that they are reporting into. And we need a joined-up approach, making sure that people know how to report, that victims get that real support that they need, and that communities are kept informed about what is being done. So, will you as a Welsh Government commit to working with British Transport Police, transport providers and local authorities to improve reporting transparency and outcomes for violent crimes on the Welsh rail network?

Yes, absolutely. We regularly hear, on trains and on metro services across the UK, the plea 'to see it and to sort it' if anybody sees a crime happening or an offence, and it is vitally important that we all play our parts in reducing crime and anti-social behaviour on the transport network, including on trains. Policing and justice, obviously, are beyond my portfolio responsibilities, and British Transport Police do an outstanding job. I know that they are under incredible pressure. I've met with them to discuss the pressure, and it is increasing as well. And that's why, in part, we are hosting that safety in public transport summit, but we're also going to be discussing at that summit the issues of anti-social behaviour and violence on buses as well, because this is something that bus drivers, through the unions, have raised with us as well. So, as I say, I'll invite opposition spokespeople to that particular event.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Thank you for the invite and, if I'm able, I'll be there. So, thank you very much.

One of the defining failures of the Welsh Labour Government has been the stubborn persistence of poverty in Wales. Over the last 20 years, the figure has barely shifted, with one in five people remaining poor, with nearly half of those in the very deepest forms of poverty. Transport is not an incidental to this picture, but is fundamental, and the evidence is damning. The latest report from the Bevan Foundation shows that 30 per cent of households on less than £20,000 a year have no access to a car. They are forced into dependence on buses, which, despite being the most relied upon mode of transport for low-income families, have suffered decades of disinvestment. Meanwhile, people on low incomes who do own cars find themselves in a vicious cycle. Half say that costs are difficult to manage, yet they cannot give them up because there are no alternatives. That is why over one in 10 adults said that they had to cancel an essential journey in the last three months because they just couldn't afford it. A public transport system that forces people to choose between heating their homes or attending a hospital appointment isn't a public service. Cabinet Secretary, in light of the evidence, how can you assure the people of Wales that access to transport will not deepen existing inequalities? And how will you ensure that travel is affordable and accessible to those on lower incomes?

Can I thank the Member for his question? I think he raises a vitally important point that, actually, I discussed just last week with the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt, the issue of how transport can contribute to lifting people out of poverty, and how to avoid transport poverty, whether that's a lack of affordable services or a complete lack of services in a community.

There are a number of schemes and a number of work strands that are contributing to my portfolio in tackling poverty. Obviously, we've got the Bus Services (Wales) Bill, where we're aiming to take back control of the bus network and make better use of our substantial investment in bus services. This parliamentary term, Llywydd, we'll have spent £600 million supporting the bus network across Wales. It's a huge sum of money, but we don't yet have the full control that we need to get maximum benefit from it, so the bus Bill is going to be vitally important in driving social justice. So too is the £1 fare cap for young people on bus services. This is already proving to be immensely popular. So far, more than 24,000 additional young people have signed up to MyTravelPass and, in November, when the scheme is extended to five to 15-year-olds, around 230,000 young people across Wales, in every single community, will benefit from that particular scheme. And as I say, it's proving to be very, very popular indeed.

And then in terms of active travel, for people who walk and wheel and cycle, as I said in response to Sam Rowlands, we're investing heavily in improving the safety of our streets, and the 20 mph default speed limit is contributing to that as well. We want to make sure that, by whatever means you move around between communities and within your community, you are safe to do so and that, as you outline, public transport is affordable and is available. We're making huge strides in that area where we've got full control, for example, through TfW on the rail network. We've seen a very significant increase in the number of services that we operate with brand-new trains, as a result of the £800 million that this Government is spending on brand-new trains across Wales.

Thank you for that answer, about some of those schemes that are coming forward. The £1 scheme for young people is great if you've got a bus running where you need it to go when you need it to go, but that's another aspect that we need to look at. But looking at buses, they are the most used form of public transport by people on those lower incomes that we were talking about, yet after years of decline, patronage still is less than 80 per cent of pre-pandemic levels. The bus Bill, as you've mentioned, contains proposals that, at face value, are very welcome, and we passed the general principles the other day. However, the ambitious aspects such as purchasing a bus fleet come with substantial financial implications. Without adequate investment in place, structural reform risks delivering little change for those who rely most on those services.

It's also the case that buses cannot be considered in isolation, as you say. The evidence demonstrates that barriers such as poor pavements, unsafe walking routes to bus stops and the absence of integrated ticketing systems all contribute to low usage. Unless investment is made simultaneously in the infrastructure and affordability measures, the potential of the Bill will not be realised. Cabinet Secretary, could you therefore clarify how the Welsh Government intends to finance the significant commitments contained within the bus Bill, and do you accept that without sufficient resources, the legislation risks being an administrative reform rather than a meaningful improvement for passengers?

Well, first of all, the bus Bill, as I said previously, will give us control over the network. We'll have a bus network plan, which will be laid before this Parliament and will be available for full scrutiny by Members, that meets passenger needs, that serves passengers rather than a profit motive, and Transport for Wales will play a critical role in helping bus companies to acquire new, modern, zero-emissions buses. We're discussing with TfW how they may be able to purchase a fleet and then lease it to operators that can't afford the upgrade to zero-emissions vehicles. That's particularly important for small and medium-sized enterprises, which are so vitally important, especially in rural parts of Wales. The capital cost of purchasing electric buses at the moment is prohibitive for many of those businesses, so we're talking with the sector about the role that TfW could play in that regard. Of course, it's going to be for future Governments to determine the level of resource that is invested in bus transport. I would say to any future transport Minister that if you're determined to drive social justice, if you're determined to use transport as an enabler, then please invest heavily in bus services, not just in the routes, but also in the infrastructure that supports congestion-free movement of buses, to make it reliable. Ultimately, our aim is to create one network, one ticket and one timetable across public transport to have that full integration that you've just spoken about.

And part of those passenger needs are the needs and the challenges in particular for people with disabilities. A quarter of households where somebody is disabled are already living in poverty and transport, again, is a key factor in that disadvantage. Disabled adults take 29 per cent fewer trips than non-disabled adults. They are nearly twice as likely not to have access to a car, and for those who do own one, a far higher proportion report that the costs are very difficult to afford. Yet they are also far less able to give up their vehicles, because public transport is often not accessible or reliable. The risk now is that the transition to electric vehicles could exacerbate that inequality. Disabled people who cannot afford to switch may be left dependent on older, more expensive petrol and diesel cars, effectively penalised by a transition that is supposed to benefit all. Unless explicit measures are taken, this accessibility gap risks becoming even more stark. Cabinet Secretary, what specific measures will your Government introduce to ensure that disabled people are not left further disadvantaged with the transition to net zero?

Well, it will be largely through investment in public transport—public transport and infrastructure that supports public transport. If you want a clearer example of how we're doing that, you can visit the metro area of Wales and see on the core Valleys lines how trains that are operating on there, the new 756s, have ramps that come down to meet station platforms, ensuring that there's step-free access, there's level boarding, for all passengers. It's that sort of investment that ensures that we leave nobody behind.

I met, actually just this week, with the new chair of the active travel board, and we had a very long and constructive discussion about how we can ensure that public transport is available and appropriate for everybody, regardless of levels of physical mobility or lack of mobility. And we also have, of course, the access and inclusion panel, which is embedded within Transport for Wales. They provide invaluable advice on service provision, on investment in infrastructure, on how to improve the public scene as well, the street scene, to ensure that nobody is left behind by public transport. 

The Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 requires free transport for pupils living more than set distances from school. Through the revenue support grant we continue to invest significantly in learner travel. It is for local authorities to determine whether they wish to go further than their statutory obligations.

Cabinet Secretary, you will be well aware that Labour-led Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council has withdrawn home-to-school transport for children living within three miles of their school. This decision, made under the guise of cost saving, has felt like a gut punch to countless families, especially when the council holds a staggering £250 million in useable reserves. The consequences are already unfolding before our eyes. Roads around schools are now choked with traffic as parents scramble to fill the gap left by school buses, air quality is deteriorating and working parents are stretched thinner than ever. What is most worrying is that children are now walking along busy and dangerous roads, and it is only a matter of time before a serious accident happens. It is not just a logical failure, but a moral one. We’re asking families to choose between safety and affordability. We are putting children at risk to save money when it is not needed. So, I ask you directly: do you support reinstating home-to-school transport in RCT? What action will you take to ensure the council reconsiders this deeply damaging decision? Thank you.

Can I thank the Member for his question? Look, this is a matter for local authorities. It's their responsibility. But I do note that, in May, you made a statement on your website in which you commented on the rising costs of public transport, specifically buses, and for young people. It fails me to understand, therefore, why you didn't support the Welsh Labour budget that made provision for the £1 fare cap. That would have helped significantly, I imagine. And I think that it was in 2022 that you posted a video on YouTube, I think it was in response to the First Minister, where you raised concerns about post-16 travel and costs. I just don't understand—[Interruption.] I think I was the only person to view it, yes, you're right. But I just don't understand, therefore, why you opposed the Welsh Labour budget that made available a scheme that would only cost £1 at most for a young person to travel by bus. You should support that scheme because it is an enabling scheme; it is part of the solution to learner travel.

But learner travel doesn't have a single silver bullet. We don't have one answer to what is a very, very complicated challenge. We do know, based on an interview given by Nigel Farage this week, that he believes the solution to the learner travel conundrum is to get parents, wherever they are, to drive their children to school. I think he said something along the lines of, in the past, there were these things called parents that drove their children to school. So, he's recommending that Kent County Council significantly reduce the amount of investment that they make into school transport. 

Here in Wales, we've had the learner transport summit. So, work is taking place as a result of that summit, and it was an excellent event. It did shine a light on the many, many challenges that we face with school transport. Bus reform will be part of the solution as well, which again raises the question of why you are not supporting the general principles of bus control, which will enable us to better plan a network to meet the needs of learners. So, we are taking great strides in addressing the many challenges associated with learner travel, but there is no one silver bullet to this challenge.

Well, there is no one silver bullet to this challenge, as you say, but for far too long, home-to-school transport arrangements in Wales have been letting too many young people down. In my region, for example, one local authority has told a year 12 pupil that after five years of attending a particular school and having been transported across county boundaries for those five years to attend that school, she now can no longer continue there. Instead, she has to travel nearly 20 miles away to a different school, simply because of the rules.

For years, I've heard you and other Ministers saying that you're going to sort this out. The bus Bill was initially mooted as one way of doing it directly, but your Government has chosen not to with the Bill that's before us. I know you’re consulting as well on the learner travel operational guidance, and it's good that that consultation is happening, but again, that isn't finishing now until later this year. It just feels as if you're telling us you're going to sort it out, but year after year it doesn't seem that anything is changing. So, can you explain to me how a system that forces a pupil to abandon their school halfway through their education can possibly be justified, and when will you finally sort out a system that's clearly letting too many young people down?

You've got to have some brass neck to ask that sort of question after refusing to support a Welsh Labour budget that introduced a £1 fare cap for bus travel—

It's nothing to do with the budget. You're legislating on buses and you're doing nothing about school transport.

I said in response to the other Member whose question I've just answered that the £1 fare cap scheme is part of the solution, along with bus reform through the bus Bill. I do hope that you will support those measures. But there is no one single solution to this very complicated issue. I will invite you along to the next summit that we have on learner travel so that you can appreciate the complexities involved in this. Simply moving the threshold, which is, I think, what the Member wishes us to do on the distance criteria, simply moves the problem; it doesn't solve the problem. If the Member has a simple solution, then please share it with us and tell us where the additional buses would come from, where the additional land for bus bays at schools would come from, where the additional money would come from.

Cabinet Secretary, I very much welcome the work that's going on in terms of learner travel in terms of looking for solutions, and this is indeed complex. I know in my constituency, the cost over the last year for Rhondda Cynon Taf has risen from £8 million to £15 million, so we obviously have to be aware of the considerable cost and the implications for budgets across the range.

There are, of course, challenges, and some of them you've recognised, in respect of the way people work now, the different shifts, getting to and from work, particularly where both parents are working. The bus Bill has been identified as one option, and, clearly, the need to integrate buses far more in terms of public need, and that involves, I think, school transport.

I wonder if you could perhaps just elucidate a little bit more how the bus Bill is going to approach and address some of these issues, and the engagement that there may be. And of course I would certainly be very happy to participate in any of the consultations that are likely to take place, or the engagement in the future, because this is a complex problem that needs addressing. I'd certainly hope that the bus Bill is one of the ways of providing an umbrella for solutions to enable that to happen.

Mick Antoniw is absolutely right. What bus Bill will enable us to do is ensure that regular scheduled services are more closely aligned with home-to-school movements, so that young people will be able to use more regular scheduled services. The landscape that we operate in at the moment is overly complicated. We have too little control, and as a result of that, costs for councils in regard to learner travel are escalating. It's a staggering fact that in this financial year we'll be spending through our local authorities £204 million on school transport, and that's from a revenue support grant of around £6 billion. So, it is an incredible cost, and it is increasing, and that often means that less money is then able to be invested in education. The bus Bill will be a major component that will help us solve this problem.

This is obviously a very live issue. I would ask the Cabinet Secretary to reconsider in terms of the bus Bill. You are conflating the £1 fares now with school transport. Very clearly, in the budget that you put before us, learner travel was not part of that. For families in my region, it may sound very reasonable, £1 a journey, but we are making children pay to go to school. Education is supposed to be free in this country, and parents are having to make the choice as to whether they can send their child every single day to school currently. If you have more than one child, where are they finding this additional money, where previously school transport was free?

We have to come up with a solution. The bus Bill is the perfect opportunity. Will you reconsider and will you ensure that councils are using the discretionary element of the guidance? Because they are sticking to that 3-mile rule without looking at that child, that individual. We have to spend so much time appealing for those children who aren't able to access school transport and are having those decisions successfully overturned so that they are able to access transport. We have to remember that of that cost, a high level is on taxis, not on buses. We need to find solutions so that we get more people using public transport. But, surely, having a bus Bill not addressing this is a disservice to those who are not able to access education because cost is a barrier currently.

The issue of learner travel is out of scope of the Bill, but the Bill will contribute, as I've said repeatedly, to solving this challenge. It will contribute through having greater control of the bus network in the hands of Ministers, and we will be able to develop the network and timetables to ensure that more services are available to young people. The £1 fare scheme has made a major difference to families: 230,000 young people are going have access to that particular scheme come November. That makes a difference not just to those young people, but to their parents and their siblings as well. And yes, I would agree that £1, if you've got many, many children, can be a major consideration in terms of expenditure, but it's a lot less expensive than what people have been used to paying until recently. I would say if you care about bus services for young people and the affordability of them, celebrate the fact that we've introduced a £1 fare cap for young people across Wales. Support it.

In Preseli Pembrokeshire, we will deliver projects through our national transport delivery plan. We support local leadership through regional transport plans, enabling communities to shape priorities that reflect their needs.

Cabinet Secretary, one road project in my constituency that continues to be a source of contention is Newgale. As you know, I've been supporting the local campaign group Stand Up For Newgale, which has developed an alternative scheme for the community that is significantly cheaper than the local authority's £40 million-plus road realignment scheme. It's also more environmentally sensitive. Cabinet Secretary, it makes no sense for Pembrokeshire County Council to push ahead with its plans when there is a more affordable and environmentally sensitive option available to them. Therefore, given that the local authority will turn to the Welsh Government for funding, can you confirm that you will not provide any further Welsh Government funding to the local authority for their scheme until proper consideration been given to the alternative community-led scheme? Cabinet Secretary, not often will you get Members asking you not to fund a project, so I hope I'll receive a favourable response.

I thank Paul Davies for his question and the opportunity to speak about this on a number of occasions, along with members of the local campaign group STUN. I've also had discussions with the local authority, so I am very aware of the alternative that's been suggested by members of the community, and, indeed, by Paul Davies himself. We've made sure that it has been and is being appropriately considered.

I think it's fair to say that it's likely that in this case a public inquiry will be considered and needed for the particular scheme, which would then, in turn, bring further levels of scrutiny, not just of the scheme that is eventually proposed but also of all alternatives. There have also been a number of public consultations and a planning pre-application consultation.

I can confirm that the role of the Welsh Government with regard to this project has been to fund the work to date to consider those solutions, and we'll continue to do so this financial year, but only up to the point where a decision has to be made on the funding of the actual construction of the preferred solution. That will then move to the corporate joint committee to determine, as this is a local road, and this will form part of the priorities, if it does at all, of the CJC, against other important projects that it'll be competing against within the region.

We recognise that traffic congestion impacts on bus service reliability, and we've made capital grant funding available to local authorities over many years to bring forward more bus priority schemes. In preparation for bus franchising, I’ve asked Transport for Wales to identify priority locations for funding.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. We can understand that reliability is key to persuading passengers to come back to using buses for those predictable journeys to school and work. What analysis has the Welsh Government done of the most disruptive pinch points on the network? Can we accelerate any action so that we are running ahead of ourselves in anticipation of the long-term benefits of the bus Bill?

Can I thank Jenny Rathbone for her question? I agree entirely. Reliability is the No. 1 factor that drives people to take public transport. It’s a more important consideration than fares, even. The new chair of Transport for Wales, Vernon Everitt, reminds me on a regular basis that the objective of Transport for Wales is to ensure that we have reliable, regular and safe public transport.

I’m pleased to say that Transport for Wales are doing some outstanding work in using detailed data on bus journey times to accurately model and identify key locations that are prone to heavy traffic congestion and require capital investment. That work will then, in turn, inform decisions around where we’re going to be prioritising investment in bus congestion solutions. So, I’ll keep the Member updated. I know that the Member is very keenly interested in this area of work, so I’ll keep the Member updated on the plans as they emerge.

Of course, the main cause of congestion in my constituency for bus routes has been the introduction of the default 20 mph limit within the Vale of Clwyd. Within Denbighshire, only 0.6 per cent of roads are exempt from the rule. Many bus stops were decommissioned by Arriva Buses along the 51 route, including the Tweedmill, which invested millions just 15 years ago in taking the bus stop off the A525 route, and also Llandegla, which was taken off the route to make up for the time that was being lost as a result of the 20 mph scheme. Will you accept that that is a part of the reason for bus congestion within my constituency? Will you commit to looking into this further to see how we can ease this problem within the community so that people who are travelling from Rhyl to Denbigh and vice versa can have more fluidity within their travel to make sure that bus timetables aren’t being impacted by the overzealous 20 mph rule?

Can I thank the Member for his question and assure him that we take this issue very seriously indeed? We meet with bus operators, with Transport for Wales, to understand any adverse impacts of policy measures on bus services. When the Member and I met with Denbighshire local authority leaders to discuss this matter, they did assure us that they consider the data that was available from bus operators. We’ll be able to provide an assurance through a completely independent evaluation of the scheme that is being commissioned. That will look at all aspects of the policy, how it’s being implemented, how it’s delivering and the benefits that are being realised from it. But ultimately, if we look at that particular scheme, yes, it may have caused some disruption, but it has also led to in the region of 800 lives not being adversely impacted, as they would’ve been had those casualties taken place.

'Llwybr Newydd' sets out our vision to improve transport across Wales. We will deliver this vision in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire through the projects set out in our national transport delivery plan. We’re also empowering local leaders through regional transport plans to shape transport priorities that reflect the needs of their communities.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Can I ask you to pass on my thanks and the thanks of Eglwyscummin Community Council to your officials, who we met with over the summer recess to discuss the junction at Red Roses on the A477? There is some investment coming to try and make that junction more safe, but this is part of a wider scheme that I’ve been leading locally to improve safety on the whole A477 from Pembroke Dock to St Clears. We've seen the investment at the Nash Fingerpost junction, which has been very welcomed by the local community, but speeding in Milton continues to be an issue, as does the junction accessing Cosheston—a small village with a fantastic school. So, the A477, as I've always called for, needs a whole root-and-branch review of its safety. That's what I've been calling for. Will you commit to that?

Can I thank the Member for his kind remarks? I will certainly pass on his thanks to my officials. Officials have confirmed that a speed survey at Milton on the A477 is scheduled for this financial year, and has secured funding for it to take place. Once that survey has been completed, it'll be used to assess the site, and we'll work with Dyfed-Powys Police and GoSafe in terms of possible enforcement in the area. I've said on previous occasions that we're conducting a resilience study of the trunk road network, and that will include issues like road collisions and reliability of routes in adverse weather conditions. So, it will cover all manner of things. It's going to start with the M4 and the A55, but it will then examine other trunk roads across Wales.

The 20 mph default speed limit aims to save lives and make our communities safer. Early evidence shows collisions have indeed fallen. We’ve commissioned an independent evaluation to provide impartial, evidence-based findings on how the policy is delivered, its impact on road safety, the value of the particular policy and wider benefits.

As you know, Cabinet Secretary, along with Dr Julian Smith, I held a road safety conference at the Senedd before the summer break. Tragically, Dr Smith's daughter was killed in a road traffic collision, and he's since created a charity to campaign for better road safety right across Wales and further afield. During that conference, we had very strong evidence as to the benefit of the default 20 mph speed limit, as you've already referred to this afternoon, in terms of the prevention of deaths, accidents and collisions. 

I've also, when I've visited local primary schools, heard many families and children tell me that they now feel safer walking to school because of the default 20 mph policy, and, indeed, community life, I think, in general, is encouraged through those quieter and friendlier neighbourhoods. So, would you, in the light of the clear evidence of the benefits of the policy, Cabinet Secretary, reaffirm Welsh Government's commitment to this flagship policy and agree with me that the Welsh Tories' opposition to this policy is completely irresponsible, flying in the face of the clear evidence of lives saved, injuries prevented and collisions avoided?

John Griffiths, I'm not sure the Tories always oppose the policy, though, because on occasions, they've voted for it. So, I'm still not clear, in my own mind, where they actually stand on this. We know where Reform stand, but, then, it's Ryder Cup week this week, and with Russia not competing, I assume that Reform will be backing the United States rather than Europe, such is their lack of care in our continent, our country and our communities.

I think what's important with the 20 mph policy is that it's not just about making people safer, it's also about ensuring that people feel safer in their community, and it has made a great difference, from my perspective, in the community in which I live. But an independent evaluation will be carried out. That independent evaluation has been commissioned. It will be evidence based. It will be entirely impartial. It'll cover policy delivery, impacts on road safety, value for money, economic impacts, wider benefits to health and communities. It will also have a steering board, which is independent, to ensure that the evaluation is interrogated fully and properly. I am giving consideration to the membership of that steering board. I would like, for completion, people or organisations that have previously been opposed to the 20 mph default to have a role on that steering board, because I think it's essential that it’s evidence based and that, ultimately, people have confidence in its findings. It’s going to be a very important piece of work and it will be an inclusive piece of work.

Cabinet Secretary, before I start with my question I'd just like to say and put on record—as you know, I was previously the shadow Cabinet Secretary for transport—I, alongside all of my Conservative colleagues, have never supported the default 20 mph speed limit that has been in place. Last week marked two years since the Welsh Government's controversial 20 mph speed limit policy was rolled out across Wales. Cabinet Secretary, I'm sure you will recall it was a move that was met with public uproar and sparked countless protests and a record-breaking Senedd petition gaining nearly 500,000 signatures to have it rescinded. Part of the outcry, in my opinion, is down to the fact it cost a staggering £33 million to implement at a time where our health service is on its knees and crying out for further investment, and, of course, the £9 billion dent it is poised to put in our economy here in Wales.

Over the summer I have been out talking to various residents on the doorsteps and running various surveys in my region, focusing on 20 mph, and the verdict is evidently clear. Despite the former transport Minister declaring people would ‘get used to it’, they haven't, and the levels of anger and frustration are still very much there. To be fair, Cabinet Secretary, the blame for this shocking policy is not going to be solely laid at your door. I am going to have to give credit to Plaid Cymru and Labour, who helped you bulldoze this through. Cabinet Secretary, while some local authorities are rowing back and distancing themselves from your Government's policy, it's still not, sadly, enough. So, will you do the right thing and fully rescind this damaging policy from places where it's not needed? Or is it the case that the only way to get rid of this 20 mph policy is to vote Welsh Conservative in May 2026?

Can I thank Natasha Asghar for her question? I said that I assumed that Tories were supporting it at some points because of the photos that were so often placed online—

I haven't. You'll never see a picture with me in it.

—expressing '20's plenty'. Well, as Ronald Reagan once said, if you've got to explain it, you've lost it. 

I was recently in Bwlchgwyn in my community—last Friday, in fact—with police and with elected members, local councillors. We were there discussing the deaths of two motorcyclists in the community, in horrific accidents, and the leading police officer outlined how, as a result of 20 mph, his job in dealing with casualties, in dealing with deaths, has been lifted in terms of the trauma, somewhat. But of course there are still too many people dying on our roads, and a lot of work will be taking place in terms of technological advances that will drive up safety and will reduce casualties. But there is no doubt in my mind that the horror suffered by people when there is a loss is far worse than the frustrations that people go through in having to drive a little bit slower.

That said, of course—of course—there are instances where 20 mph is not appropriate, and I'd pay credit to Wrexham council, for example, where they're undergoing at this moment in time the process of sensible and safe changes. And I do think and I do hope that we are reaching a point where we have general consensus that 20 mph is in the right communities and is in the right areas. Where it's not, changes are being made, and we're seeing, for example, in those areas where there was a very low initial exemption rate, quite significant work being undertaken. But I think it's really important to take this out of the culture wars, to be honest, and to be able to have a debate on the evidence, and that's what we'll be able to do as a result of the impartial independent group that are going to be coming together to study and interrogate the evidence.

Finally, question 8, Delyth Jewell.

This financial year, local authorities will receive over £6 billion from the Welsh Government in revenue funding to spend on delivering key services, which includes school transport. Councils have statutory obligations to deliver school transport, and the discretion to offer improved provision if they wish. As I've said, this current year the cost of school transport to councils and the taxpayer is currently in excess of £204 million. 

Thank you for that. Well, Cabinet Secretary, as we start the new school year, many students face uncertainty about their transport from home to school. Pupils who live in Merthyr Tydfil and study in Rhondda Cynon Taf have been affected by changes in home-to-school transport, and Caerphilly council only recently scrapped their proposed changes. Now, as you've said, Cabinet Secretary, there's a statutory duty that is placed on local authorities to provide that home-to-school transport free of charge to primary school children who live 2 miles or further in walking distance from their relevant school, and to secondary school children living 3 miles or further from their relevant school, but there is no duty to ensure that that walking distance is safe. Equally, the rules don't take into account the longer travelling distances some children would need to travel to the nearest Welsh-medium school, for example. So, Cabinet Secretary, is it your aim, please, to help ensure that existing school transport services will not be cut, and that all children should have a safe and affordable way of reaching their school? Now, I appreciate this has come up already this afternoon. This is a difficult issue, but any hope that you can give to any young people or their parents who are watching will be so welcome.

Can I thank the Member for her question and for her keen interest in this particular subject matter? Active travel integrated maps play part of a role in ensuring that there is safe movement between the home and school. Also, safer routes to schools themselves play an enormous role in making sure that young people can access education safely. As I've said on a number of occasions this afternoon, there is no one simple single solution to the challenge of school transport with escalating costs. Moving the distance threshold just moves the problem, it doesn't solve it. If we were to significantly reduce the threshold, if the money was available to put on more services for more young people, then you'd still need to find the additional drivers, the additional buses, the additional bus bays. So, actually, it's through interventions like bus reform that we're going to be able to solve this particular problem, but there will be another summit. There will be an additional opportunity for Members to come and attend to discuss and debate what possible solutions not just this Government, but future Governments could bring forward. And I'll ensure that opposition Members are invited, as they were last time around.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. 

The next set of questions will be those to the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, and the first question is from Peredur Owen Griffiths. 

Diolch yn fawr, Peredur Owen Griffiths. Our community cohesion programme funds the Gwent east and Gwent west regional teams to build and leverage effective partnerships that promote cohesion and mitigate tensions in South Wales East. I've recently extended funding for the programme to continue our long-term approach to supporting more cohesive communities.

Thank you for that response. 

Minister, we were both in attendance at an amazing event last week that was hosted by the Welsh Ukrainians that have come to our country to flee conflict in their homeland. Held at the Caerphilly County Borough Council headquarters to mark the opening of an art exhibition, the event also served as a 'thank you' to the people of Wales for opening their arms and their hearts to people in dire need of compassion and help. As was said during the event by one of our Welsh Ukrainians, offering sanctuary is not a weakness, it's one of Wales's greatest strengths.

When certain politicians attack the nation of sanctuary, they are attacking the support given to Ukrainian refugees, because this is where the vast majority of the cash has gone—around 83 per cent, in fact. Having spoken to many Ukrainians at the event we attended, I know that they are upset and disappointed by the comments that are made by some in this Parliament. Will you join me in acknowledging the ways in which our culture and communities have been enriched by Ukrainian people and other refugees who have made Wales their home? Will you also condemn the toxic spread of untruths told by certain politicians to further their own careers?

Thank you very much indeed for that follow-up question, and I was indeed very pleased to join with you and colleagues from this Chamber at the Ukrainian community in Caerphilly—that's what they called it, the Ukrainian community in Caerphilly—and we could say that in every constituency across Wales; we have a Ukrainian community in all our communities. And, indeed, they addressed this as a Ukrainian community gratitude celebration, a gratitude to the people of Wales for—. And indeed, we had a wonderful exhibition, singing and gathering together, and it was something that really acknowledged the importance and the value of our nation of sanctuary.

Now, just to say that Welsh Government has, of course, a vision of Wales as a nation of sanctuary. We seek to ensure that all who come to Wales can fully contribute to Welsh community life, and we're committed to this vision, committed to harnessing the opportunities that migration brings to help our economy and communities to thrive. And just very briefly to say and remind the Senedd that Wales has welcomed around 8,000 Ukrainians to our country since the full-scale invasion in February 2022. This includes over 3,300 under our supersponsor route, and over 4,600 to Homes for Ukraine household sponsors. So, across our community, across Wales, we are supporting, and we have—and our households, our people, have—been welcoming and supporting Ukrainians. So, I very much regret those statements that have been made, indeed, over just the past two days, the fact that one significant party in this Chamber—two parties in this Chamber—have said that they do not support the nation of sanctuary, a nation of sanctuary, which—. As you say, over six years, 83 per cent of the funding that has gone to the nation of sanctuary has been to welcome Ukrainians and, indeed, to ensure that we have that wonderful cohesion that we see and the gratitude that we saw when we met Ukrainians in Caerphilly last week.

Cabinet Secretary, whilst I can genuinely see the intention behind it, and I appreciate it's received a lot of media coverage over the past 24 hours, we cannot deny that the Welsh Government's nation of sanctuary initiative has proved very divisive, and some would argue that it's doing very little for community cohesion. [Interruption.] Hold on.

The nation of sanctuary plan says the Welsh Government will make sure refugees can find new, good quality accommodation; support refugees in accessing employment or setting up their own business; help those seeking sanctuary to avoid poverty; help them have a healthy start in life; reduce mental health conditions experienced by sanctuary seekers; provide a good education; and provide equal access to the internet.

Some of the things I've just listed are many of the things people across Wales dream of. So, Cabinet Secretary, can you see why this plan has actually helped stoke community division? Whilst I, alongside my colleagues, definitely will have no objection to providing support for Ukrainian refugees, do you accept that it's acting as a pull factor for those who are not genuine refugees? Thank you.

Well, I reject all those points. I welcome the fact that you actually have welcomed Ukrainian refugees. [Interruption.] Yes, well why don't you welcome the nation of sanctuary? Eight-two per cent of the people who've come to Wales have come under the Ukrainian welcome scheme. Can I just say, in terms of the work that we've done with our Ukrainians, that our Ukrainians now are contributing to our economy, they're working, they're in our schools, they're bringing all their skills? Indeed, that has been the history of Wales as a welcoming country, and a country that takes pride in fairness and compassion. Is that shared on that side of this Chamber?

Our vision of Wales is a nation of sanctuary, and, can I just say, simply about supporting those who arrive to rebuild their lives and contribute fully to Welsh life? We're not responsible for decisions about how many people come to Wales, but we aim to harness the skills when people do come, to support our communities and the economy. We aim to support a proportional share of the sanctuary seekers to the UK, around 5 per cent. That is a proportional share. Your previous Government—we've always accepted together, inter-governmentally, that that is a proportional share. So, our policy is not about how many people come to Wales—decisions that are made by the UK Government—the nation of sanctuary is about giving anyone who arrives the best chance of integrating successfully and benefiting host communities.

In your region, Wales has such a long history of this sort of thing. In 1937, 56 young Basque children arrived in Newport, fleeing Franco's Spain, and the local community soon realised that the children would need entertainment, so the Basque Boys Association Football Club was formed, and that's been immortalised by Newport County. This is a nation of sanctuary story. On the role football can play, Llantwit Major football club in my own constituency stood up for Ukrainians in 2023 and brought communities together. Working together, led by the football club, the local community showed the true spirit of the town.

And, you know, it is the disinformation and misinformation that is stirring up the division. Of course, that is something where we have to learn lessons. We have a 'keeping safe online' area on Hwb to provide resources for young people to understand online hate. We've developed a fact-check blog, 'For the record'. Please read that, and you will see the truth, not the misinformation or the disinformation, about our nation of sanctuary.

Thank you, Russell George. The Housing (Wales) Act 2014 places a statutory duty on local authorities to assess and meet the accommodation needs of Gypsies, Roma and Travellers residing in or passing through the area.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your answer. There are several authorised Gypsy and Traveller sites in Powys. I notice that there are other counties across Wales that currently have no authorised sites at all. Powys County Council is currently considering proposals for an additional site in north Powys, in and around the Welshpool area. There are several sites being looked at. Now, Powys has indicated that they are following statutory obligations. They're saying that there's no other choice but to identify these sites in this particular area. Local communities are concerned, and have expressed concern around the suggested sites, in terms of their suitability and appropriateness as well. Now, the Welsh Government is unique, as I understand it, in imposing statutory obligations on local authorities, unlike the more flexible approaches in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland. So, can I ask, Cabinet Secretary: would you agree with me that a more flexible approach would be better in Wales, so that local authorities have a greater ability to take into account local concerns and situations, and, indeed, decide themselves whether a site should be built or not, or do you believe that local authorities already have that ability?

Well, of course, as I said, we have a duty, with the Housing (Wales) Act 2014, which this Senedd supported, which places a statutory duty on local authorities to assess and meet those accommodation needs. In fact, all Welsh local authorities, including Powys County Council, have produced their Gypsy, Traveller accommodation assessments. They've been approved by the Welsh Government, and we've notified Powys. Obviously, what's very important is that the assessment is undertaken with those who need that accommodation—our Gypsy, Roma, Traveller people—and that there is full engagement with those who need that accommodation, but also with elected members, to ensure that they can move forward positively, as we've seen, in many instances, in Powys and other parts of Wales.

So, I am aware Powys is preparing a replacement local development plan, which will guide—. It's about guiding planning decisions and growth in Powys. I do welcome the fact that Powys does plan to build a new Gypsy and Traveller site, and I welcome the fact that Powys also attended a Gypsy, Roma and Traveller stakeholder meeting, which took place in mid Wales in February. So, it's really important that voices from Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities from mid Wales share their lived experiences and their needs, and I'd like to thank them for their valuable contributions, and just say as well that, of course, Gypsy, Roma and Traveller people have experienced and still do experience racism and discrimination and prejudice. That's why we need a statutory duty, which we have in our legislation here in Wales, to meet their accommodation needs.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservatives spokesperson, Altaf Hussain.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, Age Cymru have just released their latest research report on what matters to older people in Wales. Their findings are quite shocking. Whilst the majority of over-50s' main concerns are around health and access to healthcare, other issues fall solely within your portfolio. The cost of living is the next biggest concern facing older people. Forty-six per cent found the cost of living a challenge during the past 12 months, with many choosing to use less energy, and over a third opting to spend less on food. Cabinet Secretary, what is the Welsh Government doing to tackle poverty in Wales's older population?

Thank you very much for that question. Clearly, this is—. And, indeed, our older people's strategy and the support that we have given to our older people's commissioner, to the over-50s forums in all our local authorities, are crucial for us to learn how we can meet the needs of older people in Wales. And this is something where—. Only today, in the cross-party group on fuel poverty, we were talking about how we can make sure that everyone, and older people particularly, can take up all the entitlements that they have, how they can also have access, for example, to our discretionary assistance fund for household expenses and unexpected financial crisis, and also to recognise that, in the winter months, which of course we face, that can also be important in terms of access to funding for off-grid oil and gas applications. 

But I am pleased also to note that, as a result of decisions by the UK Government, which I do approve and support, there will be many more people who will be able to secure not only the winter fuel payment—and I think that that is a very important step forward—but also the warm home discount, and indeed benefit from the funding that we're putting into warm hubs.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Sadly, Rachel Reeves will be in the driving seat when it comes to tackling pensioners' poverty and she has already made it clear that older people will bear the brunt of welfare cuts. One in four older people in Wales receive state benefits in addition to their state pension. Age Cymru found that older people in receipt of state benefits were more likely to report other challenges than those not receiving benefits, including their physical health, the cost of living, mental and emotional health and problems with loneliness and isolation. And older people are still upset about the decision to means test their winter fuel payment, even after the partial climbdown forced on the Treasury by opposition from their own benches. Cabinet Secretary, what discussions have you had with your Westminster colleagues regarding the impact that decisions are having on older people across Wales, and will you urge the Treasury to tackle poverty among older people in its autumn budget?

Thank you for that question, Altaf, and, of course, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as I already referred to, announced that pensioners in England and Wales with an annual income of £35,000 or below will now be eligible for the winter fuel payment. And that means that over three quarters of pensioners in England and Wales will receive the payment this year; 110,000 households in Wales will receive the £150 electricity bill rebate for the first time. Those are clearly in relation to means-tested benefits in terms of the warm home discount. Those are UK Government decisions. And I have mentioned the warm hubs initiative, which is a Welsh Government initiative, and we've invested £4 million in the warm hubs initiative since 2022. And these are important places, open in the community, where people can access services, advice, participate in social activities or simply get a warm cup of tea and company.

I recently visited a very imaginative digital inclusion scheme in social housing in Monmouthshire, where I could see not only a warm hub, but also engagement and training and learning for older people in terms of digital inclusion, which is crucial, of course, for accessing services now, in terms of this digital age, for older people.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. And coming to digital inclusion, of course, Cabinet Secretary, unless the UK Government gets a grip on inflation, which, according to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, is the worst in the G7, all of us will be poorer. Older people have told Age Cymru that access to cash and face-to-face banking remains a huge challenge. Digital literacy and exclusion remains a barrier to banking for older people. One respondent to the Age Cymru survey said,

'Going to the local bank and everyone tells me to go online. No idea how!'

And even if we could wave a magic wand to instantly give internet access, devices and the skills to use them to older people, online banking is not always suitable. 'What matters to you?' researchers spoke to one individual who said, 

'My eyes are not good, so I don’t like online banking. My hearing isn’t good, so I don’t hear everything on the telephone. I need face-to-face communications for everything.'

This is not an isolated experience, Cabinet Secretary. How will the Welsh Government ensure that older people have access to face-to-face banking and cash across Wales?

Thank you for that question. I think I pre-empted it slightly in my answer to your second question, because I was very pleased to visit the social housing complex with the older people's commissioner to see the value of our Welsh Government investment in digital inclusion for older people. You make important points in terms of not just digital inclusion, but the barriers as well for older people in terms of access to banks, to cash and to funding. In fact, yesterday, I did agree with one of your colleagues that I would give a statement on this in relation to our work with the major banks, but also our work that we are developing in terms of access to affordable finance through our credit unions.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams. 

Thank you, Llywydd. I would like to declare that I'm a trustee of a foodbank in Pontardawe. Trussell has just published a piece of research entitled 'Hunger in Wales', showing that there are clear signs of hardship across our communities and that the situation is deteriorating. A quarter of Welsh adults—660,000 people—experienced food insecurity in 2024, one in four of our people worrying about where their next meal will come from. Seven per cent of households used at least one type of charitable food provider last year. And perhaps the most shocking figure of all is the fact that 81 per cent of people referred to Trussell foodbanks in Wales are disabled. These are people who are already facing higher barriers and higher living costs, and who need the most support. This kind of poverty and pressure is a political choice, and yet, Llywydd, what is the political response? The benefits of thousands of disabled people are still in the balance. Children continue to suffer under the benefit cap and the two-child cap. So, I ask you, Cabinet Secretary, what is your response to this report? And how do you intend to ensure that foodbanks become a temporary measure, rather than a permanent feature of Welsh communities?

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. We certainly would share that ambition that foodbanks should not be now, as they are, an essential place to access food in our communities for those who are most in need. One of the points that I would make in response to your question is that I think it is so important that we together—the Welsh Government with the support of Plaid Cymru—have offered those free school meals to all our primary learners. And, of course, that has meant that nearly 174,500 primary school children are newly eligible for free school meals and over 52 million additional meals have been served since the launch in 2022. I don't think we say that enough. This should be on the record more in terms of what we are trying to do to particularly address child poverty.

It's also important to recognise that this is something where we are, as you know, going to produce a progress report on our child poverty strategy for Wales. I'll be able to do that later on this year. We've had some very innovative responses from local authorities, from the third sector, on tackling child poverty with the child poverty innovation and supporting communities grant. But I think, also, I have to again make it very clear that we're committed to tackling poverty as an absolute priority, but we have to do this with all the partners who have responsibilities, and, of course, that includes the UK Government. We've consistently raised the impact on poverty levels that social security policies, such as the two-child benefit limit, may have. And we've consistently called for that change in social security and are seeking a commitment to end the two-child benefit rule.

Diolch. Another thing that's become normalised, of course, is fuel poverty. The energy watchdog Ofgem today has announced it's scrapping plans to scrap standing charges, which make up a large part of people's energy bills. They've instead announced proposals that all suppliers must offer at least one tariff in which standing charges are lower, but then customers pay more for each unit of energy used. National Energy Action Wales have said this isn't going to make people's bills any lower, especially those with vulnerabilities and who have high energy needs, like older people, families with children, and disabled people. It isn't either going to address the huge regional variation in prices, which hits Wales the hardest. If you live in London, your standing charge for gas and electric, from 1 October, is £294; in south Wales, it's £314; in north Wales, £381. Even a representative of Energy UK, the body that represents suppliers, told us, in the cross-party group on fuel poverty this morning, this proposal is not in the consumer's interest. So, how will the Welsh Government be responding to Ofgem's consultation? You told us in that meeting that you'd met Ofgem last week, so what did you raise and what response did you get? Of course, they're not policy makers, so what conversations have you had with UK Government on legislative action, to ensure targeted support for people in Wales who are facing another cold winter?

Thank you for that question, because you raise many issues that came up in that cross-party group today. Of course, you do raise that really important point about the postcode lottery around the amounts charged and the fact that costs are applied even—. I think this is crucial, to remind everyone: when people have used very little or no electricity, they will be facing those costs. Households in north Wales—the most expensive region across Britain—are particularly hard done by, and living close to renewable sources of electricity, exported from the region through the national grid. So, I'm encouraging Ofgem and the UK Government to act across the policy landscape to reform standing charges, through measures such as the social tariff. I think that's something where all parties across this Chamber in the past have agreed—that we should press for that social tariff, equalising standing charges across the regions of Great Britain.

Diolch. Families with children, of course, are among those most at risk of food insecurity and fuel poverty. Child poverty in Wales, as we know, affects a third of our children and is only set to get worse if urgent action isn't taken. Yet, as you've referenced, the Labour Westminster Government continues to enforce the cruel two-child benefit cap, pushing families in Wales deeper into poverty, harming the prospects of thousands of children across our nation. And yet, in a recent Commons debate led by the SNP, only seven Labour MPs voted to scrap the cap—not one of them represents a Welsh constituency. So, the indifference of Westminster and the Labour Welsh MPs to the struggles facing families here in Wales is evidenced for all to see. So, do you agree that Welsh Labour MPs are failing Welsh children on this measure? Would you like them to support the Welsh Government's calls on this? And with the autumn budget just around the corner, what specific new calls have you been making on the Chancellor to alleviate child poverty?

Thank you very much for your very important question.

I've already commented on the fact that we've called on the UK Government to end the two-child benefit rule—the First Minister has, and we have, consistently. I do think we stand a better chance of tackling child poverty in Wales by working with the UK Government, providing the evidence. I sought to do this as a Member of the four nations taskforce, meeting with Scottish colleagues, colleagues from Northern Ireland, the UK Government, and us, and we were able to share evidence of what was working in our countries to tackle child poverty. So, it is important that we do influence the UK Government in terms of the next steps to tackle child poverty. So, I actually look forward to the publication by the UK Government of their child poverty strategy. I know—and those meetings shared across four nations—that there's a recognition that social security policies are key—are key—to tackling child poverty, and it is essential that we move to the end of that two-child benefit rule.

Diolch yn fawr, John Griffiths. The Welsh Government provides capital site funding to local authorities to improve their current site provision and the development of new Gypsy and Traveller sites. To date in 2025-26, we have agreed funding up to £2.4 million to seven sites, supporting a wide range of works, and further bids are under consideration.

Thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary. As we know, there's a lot of work to be done to establish new sites, as well as to improve existing ones. One important way forward, I think, would be more small sites owned by Gypsies and Travellers themselves, which I know is something that that community sees as a good way forward. As you will know, Cabinet Secretary, the Local Government and Housing Committee, which I chair, believe very strongly that more focused priority is needed for this marginalised section of our society that still faces a great deal of prejudice and discrimination, and I'm very pleased that you've taken that on board and shown a new commitment and energy to making sure that we get the action that's needed.

In continuing to liaise with the Gypsy and Traveller community and those that represent them, Cabinet Secretary, one area that they've identified is the lack of clear accountability within local authorities, just for the community and those who work with them to know who is responsible for Gypsy site provision and improvement to sites. Just that clarity would be an important step forward. And I wonder, in the general work that you're doing to improve the situation, whether that's one aspect that you might give some thought to, because it's important in terms of that engagement between the community and the local authorities.

Thank you, John Griffiths, and thank you again to the Local Government and Housing Committee for their work, and, indeed, the Equality and Social Justice Committee. And I will be writing to you, to all Members, with an update on the delivery of recommendations from your committee.

We have 22 local authorities in Wales, and 16 currently have a Gypsy and Traveller site. What we're delivering is a rolling programme of monitoring meetings with all local authorities in Wales to discuss accommodation needs identified in their Gypsy and Traveller accommodation assessment. There is unmet need in Wales, and we have this capital sites grant funding. It's £3.44 million for this financial year. We have expanded the scope of the grant to include site acquisition. That has been welcomed by local authorities, meeting their statutory duty.

But, let's face it, this isn't just about infrastructure; it's about dignity, safety, inclusion. And I'm glad that we've now launched a new initiative to look at a private planning advice pilot. Now, that's something that came from the committee, and that is being taken forward. It's offering tailored planning advice before land is purchased by families, helping families make informed decisions from the outset. So, this is actually as a result of listening to Gypsy, Roma and Traveller families, as you have in your committee. That pilot should enable us, for example, just as one point in terms of what you've said today, to help families understand what is appropriate before they commit to buying land.

Can I just, finally, say that we've commissioned an organisation to deliver a national training programme for all 22 local authorities to improve cultural competence in relation to Gypsy, Roma and Traveller ways of life, and this is being welcomed by local authorities and certainly welcomed by the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller people that we are meeting through our engagement in the forum.

Thank you very much, Mark Isherwood. Across Wales, Ukrainians have built independent lives, with local authorities and the third sector offering integration support when required. Although new arrivals are fewer, our commitment to sanctuary continues. Hosting and welcome accommodation remain available, while local authorities provide ongoing support to secure stable housing and independent living.

Thank you. Well, to be clear, my party recognises that all the UK nations will always play their part in offering a home to genuine refugees, having proven that they would be at risk if they returned to their home country, including very much those fleeing the war in Ukraine.

To date, 220,000 have reached safety in the UK through schemes like Homes for Ukraine and the family scheme. British Red Cross research has found that displaced Ukrainians remain more than twice as likely to experience homelessness than the general UK population, and they've highlighted a hidden homelessness crisis amongst displaced Ukrainians who fled the conflict in 2022, and came here under schemes like Homes for Ukraine, stating,

'The Ukraine schemes weren't built for longevity. Hosting arrangements sometimes faltered after six months. Barriers—including to employment and childcare—made it difficult for many Ukrainians to become financially independent.'

So, what analysis has the Welsh Government therefore taken of this in Wales? What were its findings? And what consideration has the Welsh Government given, or will it give, to the recommendations made by the Red Cross, based on what their research has shown to be best practice?

Thank you very much, Mark Isherwood, and thank you for that really constructive contribution to this afternoon's discussions and questions.

Securing longer term accommodation is key to provision of support for those displaced by the crisis in Ukraine, and this includes hosting, the private rented sector, and other forms of good-quality transitional accommodation. I've already mentioned how many Ukrainians we have welcomed to Wales. We need to thank also those households who continue to offer to host Ukrainians in Wales. Just in terms of accommodation, we've got lower numbers of new arrivals, but when they do arrive, if we're unable to directly allocate them to a host, we provide 75 days of accommodation, and during this time, local authorities work with the household to support guests to move on to longer term accommodation.

I think it's finally important to say that it's our priority to support Ukrainians into longer term accommodation, where they can have more independence, settle within communities, and rebuild their lives. We're providing £1.5 million this year to support with ongoing costs associated with the Ukraine response to our local authorities. Can I say how pleased I was that the new Foreign Secretary, Yvette Cooper, decided to make her first visit to Ukraine to show the UK Government's backing for Ukraine as a Government, which we, of course, as a Welsh Government, have clearly endorsed?

Cabinet Secretary, of course, myself, Alun Davies and the cross-party group, the Senedd for Ukraine, will be driving to Ukraine, delivering further aid and vehicles in support of Ukrainian defenders. I welcome all the support that Members have given to that. Will you join me, though, in condemning the deliberate misinformation and the dog-whistle comments made by a former party leader in this Senedd, who appears to have gone rogue, attacking our nation of sanctuary policy, which has supported some 8,000 Ukrainians, 4,000 of whom are children, to flee Russian bombs and missiles—a policy that he previously supported? Cabinet Secretary, this attempt to compete with the racist provocation and the incitements to violence by Farage and Reform do him no credit.

Cabinet Secretary, the temporary visa scheme—and it is a temporary visa scheme—has been extended. This will now enable Ukrainians to have employment contracts, to extend rental agreements, and is very much welcome. Can you outline the representations you've made with regard to this scheme, and how this scheme will actually now operate for those Ukrainians who are in Wales under the visa scheme?

Thank you very much, Mick Antoniw. I'm sure, across this Chamber, we continue to thank you, Alun Davies and the cross-party group, who have made so many missions, so many journeys to Ukraine, with the equipment that is donated by people, organisations and institutions across Wales to support the Ukrainian defendants with their appalling and continuing oppression by Putin and Russia.

I want to welcome the UK Government's decision to extend the Ukraine permissions extension by a further 24 months. This does provide certainty to Ukrainian guests and to our local authorities and stakeholders. We're going to get more details on that from the UK Government, but it is again, let's make this very clear, the extension of the visas by a further 24 months.

I'm also pleased that we've awarded £53,100 to Settled to support the delivery of a Ukraine immigration advice service in Wales, from September of this year to July next year. This is what the nation of sanctuary is all about, and I do decry the misinformation that is being spread.

Refugees fleeing the war in Ukraine have made their home here in Wales. They are Welsh-Ukrainians, and they are welcome. Last week, I was delighted to attend a Ukrainian gratitude event in Penallta House, alongside you, and we heard Ukrainian songs and poetry, we saw beautiful art by Olesia Miftahova, and we of course tasted beautiful Ukrainian food. Olesia's artwork celebrates her heritage as well as the mountains of Wales, and one of her paintings is particularly moving, because it depicts a person standing in the eye of a storm, fighting through it. She's told me herself that it's her favourite of her own paintings, because it speaks to the experience that she and so many Ukrainians have had to face, the horrors they have endured, and still they fight on.

Will you join me in stating again how welcome these Welsh-Ukrainians are in our communities, and perhaps urge anyone who seeks to make campaign fodder out of their plight that these are human beings, and that they have gone through things that most of us, thank God, would never have to even imagine?

Thank you very much, diolch yn fawr. I fully endorse all of the points that you have made, and I was glad to be there with you, shoulder to shoulder.

Diolch yn fawr, Paul Davies. Third Sector Support Wales will receive core funding of £8.6 million in 2025-26 to provide an infrastructure of support to the third sector across Wales. Of this funding, £218,000 will go to Pembrokeshire Association of Voluntary Services to help local voluntary organisations with fundraising, good governance, safeguarding and volunteering.

I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for that response. As you are aware, Pembrokeshire is home to many charities that provide essential services in the community, and it's also home to several national charities that support people across the county. This includes the Samaritans and, unfortunately, it's been brought to my attention that there are plans to close some offices here in Wales, including the Haverfordwest office, which has been helping people since 1976. Should closures like this go ahead, there could be significant consequences for the NHS, for volunteers and, more importantly, for vulnerable people who use these services. Given the importance of these facilities, what additional support can the Welsh Government offer to organisations like the Samaritans to help them protect these offices and, indeed, protect these services going forward?

Thank you for that and for drawing attention to this. The Samaritans play an amazing role and have done for many decades. I would be very happy to pick this up and look at what we can do to help in terms of the news that you've given us today about their offices in Pembrokeshire.

Diolch yn fawr, Buffy Williams. We continue to support families and children across Wales, including in the Rhondda, promoting the Welsh benefits charter to help maximise income and put money in their pockets. This includes streamlining the process to access free school meals, the school essentials grant, and the council tax reduction scheme.

Thank you. In recent winters, some residents in Rhondda have received up to £300 through the Welsh Government's winter fuel support scheme, and have accessed help from local community centres like the Arts Factory, Cafe Croeso, the Little Shed and Valleys Veterans, thanks to Government funding. As the colder months approach, will these vital schemes continue?

And could the Cabinet Secretary also provide an update on the learner travel operational guidance consultation to date? With universal free school meals, increased education maintenance allowance payments, and the £1 bus fares for young people already introduced to ensure fairness and social justice, it's absolutely crucial that we review statutory walking distances and provide the necessary subsequent funding to local authorities so that more learners can get to school without paying a penny.

Thank you, Buffy Williams. Some of those points were addressed in previous questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales in terms of learner travel operational guidance, so I won't comment again on those issues. But I think it is important that our child poverty strategy sets out those long-term ambitions to tackle child poverty. And I mentioned earlier on this afternoon that we have the child poverty innovation and supporting communities grant, and four of the projects cover the Rhondda Cynon Taf area. Just to give you some examples: Mind Cwm Taf Morgannwg, exploring the emotional and behavioural causes of poverty through focus groups and other engagement, and ways in which education and advice can break the cycle of child and family poverty; Cwmpas, empowering young people to design new social business ventures; Children in Wales; StreetGames, engaging young people in local sport activities. These are all key ways in which we are supporting children and young people. And of course, it is also important that we support the Rhondda Cynon Taf food partnership, which is not only enabling people to access food, but also offering social eating opportunities, combating social isolation, and making provision for food pantries—which also prioritise dignity—and recognising that this is something where our safe, warm hubs for all generations are going to continue to be funded.

Thank you, Tom Giffard. While migration policy is not devolved, UK Government decisions have a clear impact on integration and community cohesion in Wales. Our devolved cohesion and migrant integration policies aim to harness the skills of those arriving, to support the whole community and economy.

You say that it's not your responsibility. I suggest that you check the Welsh Government's website, where migration, refugees and community cohesion is listed as one of your responsibilities, Cabinet Secretary. I suggest you get up to speed with that.

Over the summer, the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery gave an interview to WalesOnline, where she said, and I quote,

'The immigration thing just does my head in. I just don't understand why anyone in Wales is even remotely worried about immigration.'

She went on to say that,

'Wales should have its arms wide open and say, "Come, come, come, come, come in numbers"'. 

She said 'come' five times. Is that the position of the Welsh Government when it comes to immigration in Wales? Because it is not racist for ordinary people in Wales to have concerns about the levels of immigration into this country. And if it is not the position of the Welsh Government, why is the Counsel General still in post making those claims?

It is hard to find a serious point in your question to me, as Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice. I also will again say, and I've repeated it this afternoon and I will continue to repeat it, that Wales is a welcoming country that takes pride in fairness and compassion. Our vision as a nation of sanctuary is simply about supporting those who arrive, like all the Ukrainians we've just been talking about, like the Afghans who are actually here because they were supporting British armed forces—British armed forces—and losing their lives. And I know that there are people who've arrived in my constituency whose family members were shot by the Taliban in front of their families. Do you not recognise that that is the importance of the nation of sanctuary? It is about supporting those who arrive to rebuild their lives and contribute fully to Welsh life.

Diolch yn fawr, Mabon ap Gwynfor. I'm committed to tackling all forms of violence against women, including sexual violence rates, which are pervasive across Wales and unacceptable. The Welsh Government provides funding to all regions to commission services to support victims and survivors of sexual violence, including prevention.

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. The figures released—. I will wait for you to access the interpretation, if I may. 

Thank you very much.

Okay. The figures that were released over the summer showed that sex crimes reported to the police had increased staggeringly, with one in eight women over 16 and one in 12 men having suffered sexual assault in the previous year, or domestic abuse or stalking. It could be argued that more people are reporting their experiences or that the police are doing their job better, but the point remains that these numbers are likely to be lower than the reality because they don't include violence against children or sexual abuse, and that they are still far too high. Are you therefore confident that Wales’s violence against women and girls strategy is fit for purpose, and what steps are you taking now in thinking of the new strategy, which is to come into force next year?

Diolch yn fawr. Of course, it is of the utmost concern that those statistics that you quote are shown to be rising—statistics on sexual violence, sexual assault, domestic abuse. I think that that is where we have to be held to account on the actions that we can take within our powers, in terms of tackling violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. In fact, tomorrow, I am pleased that I am going to be co-chairing an event with police and crime commissioner Emma Wools from south Wales to mark the tenth anniversary of the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015. It's going to be an opportunity to strengthen leadership, to recommit ourselves to tackling the scourge of violence against women across the public sector and reaffirm our joint commitment across Wales to tackle violence against women and girls, and a point where we can perhaps unite in this Chamber again. I know that, across the Senedd, all parties will engage next month in the White Ribbon campaign. I know that that will be the case, and that is a point of unity, but it is leadership that we have to show, those who are in power, to tackle the scourge as we mark that tenth anniversary. 

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. 

Item 3 is the questions to the Senedd Commission, and these will be answered by the Llywydd. Question 1 is from James Evans. 

The work on the Chamber is ongoing, and the latest estimate for the full cost of the works is £4.22 million. This cost will be fully funded from the Senedd reform budget for this current year. In terms of timelines, we're still confident that we will return to the Senedd after the February recess.

Thank you very much for your answer, Llywydd. Even though I'm totally against Senedd expansion and the spending of that £4.22 million, as you've outlined, I think that it is important, if we are spending that money, that we are making sure that Welsh businesses are benefiting from the work that is being done and that we are actually using Welsh materials so that that money is being reinvested back into our economy here. So, I'd just like to know from you how many Welsh businesses have been engaged in the work in the Chamber, and what Welsh materials, in terms of timber and others, are being used to make sure that the Chamber really does reflect the best of Wales.

All of the public tendering work that we did was clear in our preference for Welsh companies and Welsh materials. A Welsh contractor is the main contractor for the work, and I'm pleased that that has happened. Progress on us returning to the Chamber is reliant on their good work and their goodwill in supporting us in our work. I don't have the detail in front of me at this point, but I am happy to share with all Members a breakdown of where we are in terms of any subcontracting that has happened with other Welsh firms or otherwise, and also the materials used. 

The Senedd is adopting AI incrementally, balancing opportunity with caution. We are currently running a structured, risk-managed trial of Microsoft Copilot for Microsoft 365 and Teams Premium, using strong controls in terms of governance and privacy. Members of the Senedd and their support staff have been given an opportunity to participate in this trial, and we have received positive feedback. 

Thank you for your response.

I welcome what you said in terms of proceeding with caution in monitoring the trial. We know that parliaments around the world are embracing digital tools and services. In the Albanian Parliament, I believe, there was even an AI Minister, although, Llywydd, I am not advocating an AI Llywydd here. But in all seriousness, I think it is really important that we do embrace this technology to support what we do, but that we have those ethical principles at the heart of it, governance and oversight, and look at the design and operation to make sure there aren't biases in how that's done, and, of course, privacy and security. I think it's really important that we have those guardrails in place, that we support, not supplant, our democracy, and also remember this is also people's workplace, and to make sure that any approach is collaborative with those that work within our democracy here in Wales. Diolch.

I think you've outlined perfectly the ethos of how we are seeking to progress our use of AI in our democracy and in our Senedd. It is there to assist us into the future, not to replace us, whether that's replace me as the Llywydd—if I pinch, I am not artificially generated; it hurts me. So, we need to make sure that AI is developed in our work in a way where we embrace the possibilities and the challenges that new technology provides us. We don't want to be behind the curve on any of this, but we want to do it in a collaborative way and in a way that has the right ethics and governance at heart.

I thank the Llywydd.

No topical questions have been accepted today.

So, we will move on now to our next item, the 90-second statements. There is just one this afternoon, and I call on Rhys ab Owen.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. Another 932 votes and Phil Richards would have become a Member in this Chamber in 1999 as the first Member for the Cynon Valley. This loss to Welsh politics was a boon for the justice system of our country. Like many prominent nationalists of the time, Phil was not born in Wales, but place of birth does not determine nationality, and Phil was consumed with passion for Wales and the Welsh language.

My father and Phil were unique in Plaid Cymru in Cardiff at the start of the 1960s. They weren't Welsh-speaking chapelgoers, and some were quite suspicious of these two rebels, but they both threw themselves into the task of campaigning in Cardiff, often in difficult circumstances, and then Phil moved to the Cynon valley years before the 1979 general election to stand in that very difficult election. Phil Richards wasn't a parachute candidate.

He used his legal skills to assist the party in the 1970s and the 1990s. These were key periods in the history of devolution. Phil threw himself into normalising the Welsh language in our courts. He would encourage witnesses to give their evidence in their first language, and I took many cases through the medium of Welsh before Phil. The Welsh learner became a Welsh language liaison judge, promoting the language on every occasion.

Phil also became a member of the Gorsedd as Phil Pennar. Dad and Phil were in the same care home for a while, and although these two old friends didn't recognise each other because of their cruel illness, it brought us some comfort that those two old friends were together, and every time we saw Phil, he was still smiling. Wales has lost a giant of a man, a giant short in stature, perhaps, but a giant nonetheless. Thank you.

Thank you, Rhys.

Item 6 is the debate on petition P-06-1494, 'Welsh Government to protect funding in education from Welsh Government and Local Authority cuts'. I call on the Chair of the Petitions Committee to move the motion. Carolyn Thomas.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, thank you for the opportunity to discuss this debate. We first considered this petition in January, but delayed requesting a debate in advance of February’s budget debate. The petitioner’s comments were shared with the Cabinet Secretary and the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee during the budget scrutiny process. The petition was submitted by Catherine Drews, and closed on 7 August 2024 with 11,040 signatures. It reads:

'ALN Reform Wales call on Welsh Government to protect funding in education from WG and LA cuts. There are numerous reports of LA's putting out consultations or actual published budgets with massive cuts to education budget. Jeremy Miles pledged to invest in education. This cannot be allowed to happen to the most vulnerable members of society. Recent reports show Wales education standards have fallen. Our children's education is the best investment in social justice and a healthy economy.'

Members will be aware of a number of petitions on ALN reform during this Senedd, and we held a petitions debate on 'Reform of the additional learning needs Code of Wales 2021' last May. I also highlighted ALN petitions during the debate on the Children, Young People and Education Committee report ‘Do disabled children and young people have equal access to education and childcare?' last November.

The Cabinet Secretary’s correspondence with us has set out the financial pressures and challenges, and highlighted her focus on raising educational standards. The petitioners have called for ring-fencing of funds, and stress an increasing frequency of parents’ pleas for help, saying:

'Whether this is as a result of the budget cuts or the funding going to the wrong places is unclear.'

On ring-fencing, the Cabinet Secretary says local authorities are best placed to assess local needs and fund schools accordingly and notes the statutory basis for engagement on funding through the schools forums. The Cabinet Secretary also points to additional hypothecated grant funding on top of the local government settlement.

Growing waiting times for a diagnosis were also stressed by the petitioners. Responding to the Cabinet Secretary’s focus on tackling absenteeism, petitioners point to how delayed diagnosis of neurodivergence and a lack of the right support can lead to 'school distress' and school-related trauma, resulting in non-attendance. They point out that teachers are not trained psychologists, and children are 'surviving not thriving'.

The petitioner has also raised concerns about problems with how the ALN code is applied, and the use of public funds for education tribunals:

'families are being pushed into stressful, lengthy legal processes just to secure basic educational rights for their children. These tribunal costs reflect not only financial inefficiency, but also a system where the law and guidance are being misunderstood—or worse, ignored.'

In its 2025-26 draft budget report, the CYPE committee notes £14.3 million to support the delivery of additional learning needs, and that Welsh Ministers have continued to prioritise local government funding, from which schools, along with social care, are the main recipients,

'to safeguard as far as possible core funding to schools'.

CYPE asked the Cabinet Secretary if she was confident local authorities had sufficient resources to fund schools adequately, and she stressed that the increased settlement for local government was in recognition of the pressures on schools and social care.

A review of school funding formulae across Wales has also recommended that ALN funding should form its own funding stream within the delegated budget. It said this would

'strengthen its identity and inform debate on the appropriate levels and usage of ALN funding for the benefit of this vulnerable cohort of learners.'

Pressure on education services is highlighted in the Finance Committee’s summary report of engagement with stakeholders on the Welsh Government’s draft budget for the next financial year, 2026-27. In July, the committee said:

'Schools are facing deficits and increased demands, particularly for additional needs. There is a need for reforms and better support for vulnerable learners and families.'

While the Petitions Committee’s main remit is not the scrutiny and strategic oversight of education funding, it is vital we recognise public concerns. The parents of children with additional learning needs, who may have faced great battles to secure the support their child needs to achieve their potential, have been tenacious in petitioning and advocating for their rights. We want to recognise their efforts. I look forward to Members’ contributions today, and to the Cabinet Secretary’s response. Thank you.

Since devolution, Welsh Labour has used the education system in Wales as a vehicle to enact and press forward with its ludicrous socialist policies. They have set about changing an educational ethos that was once one of the best in the United Kingdom to one that is now one of the worst in Europe. They have removed national and exam-focused education in favour of locally developed and holistic education, prioritising well-being and inclusion over standards of excellence and accountability. The simple truth is that this socialist experiment has failed. Wales is the laughing stock of the UK in terms of educational provision. Education standards have declined ever since Welsh Labour took control of it in 1999, and it's the people of Wales who ultimately suffer for this: less able to compete for the best universities, less able to compete for jobs, and lower skills and qualifications mean they have fewer prospects, and, ultimately, fewer opportunities in life. Poverty cannot explain why education standards are so poor. Disadvantaged pupils in England outperform the average Welsh learner, even in cities with comparable poverty levels. This Welsh Labour Government has championed progressive reforms like the Curriculum for Wales, but have not bothered to match these reforms with sufficient funding for training, implementation or even infrastructure.

However, what I find the most incredible part of all of this is the Welsh Labour Government honestly believe that they're doing a good job. No doubt we will hear from them at the end of this debate how it isn't their fault, and it's the fault of 14 years of Conservate Government. But let me remind Members here that, if spending on devolved functions was completely equalised between the four nations of the UK on a per person basis, spending would fall by 16 per cent in Wales. Ultimately, our union dividend pays dividends.

We should never forget that it was Welsh Labour who negotiated the Barnett floor with the UK Government to ensure Wales receives at least 115 per cent of equivalent English spending per capita. Now, we know that this floor has never had to kick in, because the current settlement gives us 120 per cent. We get more than our English counterparts. So, I genuinely have to ask, if the Welsh Government thinks that even more money is needed, why have they never presented the evidence and negotiated for this when they've had the opportunity? They complain about a lack of funding, but can only really blame themselves. 

Education standards in Wales are at an all-time low. The truth is, as the polls show, people in Wales simply can't stomach Welsh Labour and its ongoing kakistocracy any longer. Compared to all UK nations, we have reported the worst access to basic resources, such as books and IT facilities, and some of the biggest rises in teacher stress and sector abandonment. Our headteachers are under the highest reported pressure to cut staff, reduce support services and delay maintenance to keep within budget, when compared to their UK colleagues. As the Welsh Labour Government's failure lies not just in the amount of funding it has allocated, but in its inability to shield schools from escalating costs, support councils adequately and ensure reforms are properly resourced, the result is a system under strain with vulnerable students and staff bearing the full brunt.

This petition, Dirprwy Lywydd, clearly comes from a growing concern that vulnerable pupils, especially those with additional learning needs, will be the ones who disproportionately bear that brunt and cost. I fully support ALN Reform Wales in calling on the Welsh Government to protect school funding. Cuts to funding in this area will be devastating for children with additional learning needs, and its short-sightedness is all too plain to see. Without a decent standard of education and support, where does that leave people? It leaves them struggling to find employment, struggling to be a part of society and struggling to stay out of poverty. I would urge Members here to support this petition, and I would urge this Welsh Labour Government to intervene and ensure our education funding is secured for future generations. Thank you.

Thank you very much to the petitioner for gathering over 11,000 signatures and for raising this important issue. I intend to respond to the petition, rather than preach on other issues.

There's no doubt that Welsh Government and educational authorities' budgets are under huge pressures. But having said that, education must be a priority. We must give the best life opportunities for children through our education system, and that system must be robust—something that I'm sure we could all agree on.

But I am concerned about the impact of the pressures on public funding and the impact that that will have on learners with additional needs, and, as the petition notes, the pressures on parents too in light of the challenges that they have to face because of the lack of provision available for their children with additional learning needs.

So, that's why it's hugely important that the Cabinet Secretary, in her statement on ALN in the autumn, does directly address those challenges. That means, in our view as a party, at a minimum level, that sufficient funding should be provided to support additional learning needs services, that there should be a clear national plan presented in order to implement reform, and that compulsory training should be given to staff involved in providing ALN support.

Now, I think that these are necessary changes in order to ensure fairness and dignity for all learners with additional needs. We of course recognise the difficulties that the Welsh Government face, and the difficulties that local authorities in particular face, to get that balance right between expenditure on other services and expenditure specifically on education. And as a former local authority cabinet member, I know personally how difficult it is to make those difficult choices between spending on education and spending in other areas. That's why I have not been convinced that ring-fencing funding for education is the best way forward. 

What the challenges facing local authorities in the conflicting pressures on budgets show quite clearly, and reinforces the need, in my opinion, to address the root cause of the problem, is that Wales is not receiving fair funding from Westminster. Now, we've long called for the replacement of the outdated Barnett formula with a needs-based funding model, and also the reversal of the increase in employers' national insurance contributions, which disproportionately impacts public services in Wales.

Now, we know that the Chancellor is going to announce her autumn statement before long. I think that must include changes to a new funding formula for Wales. Anything less is surely going to be letting down Welsh children, families and communities. I'm sure we can all agree that education is the best investment we can make in the future of our nation. We have needs in Wales that are different. We have needs in Wales that are greater. Plaid Cymru will continue to fight for the funding and the reforms needed to make that investment a reality. [Interruption.] Yes, of course.

Thank you very much, Cefin. Of course, funding is vitally important, but there are other logistical factors that could be helpful equally to that, which would be something along the lines of access to certain subject areas or syllabuses. In Wales, obviously, it's bound by a singular exam board, in the WJEC, for example, where English local education authorities can actually access WJEC material, but that isn't replicated at a vice versa level. So, would you accept that some level of greater autonomy amongst schools might be a help in that direction? If a headmaster—or a headteacher, I should say—or a teacher sees a certain syllabus that they might like to teach their children, which they think would be applicable to what they want to do, then that would be something that they could explore with greater freedom.

I'm not quite sure how that relates to the petition that is before us today, but my understanding, just to answer your question, is that I think it is up to every school to choose which examination board they want to apply for in terms of examinations. Most seek the WJEC, but I don't think, in my understanding, that anything forbids them from doing anything else.

But I'll go back to ALN, if I can. I'll just finish off by saying that we need that funding in order to meet the needs of Wales, so that a future Welsh Government and local authorities don't have to face the almost impossible choices they have to make on how they spend their money. Diolch.

The petitioner here is concerned with the needs of students with additional learning needs and highlights the backlog in appointments for autism and ADHD assessments. The number of signatories to the petition shows that there is strong feeling out there and that education is a priority for the people of Wales, and, of course, is a priority for us here in the Senedd.

But Welsh children also benefit from other local authority services and spending, such as libraries, parks, swimming pools, local sports clubs. Local authorities make difficult decisions and often know the local area far better than we do here in Cardiff Bay. I agree with the principle that we do not mandate, and we don't usually mandate, what democratically elected councils do with their own budgets. I would also like to note that diagnoses are often due to failure perhaps in the health system rather than education funding.

We also read recently in a Nation.Cymru article that some schools are facing scrutiny from local authorities for unspent funding. However, that doesn't mask the fact that the reality is that most schools report that they have faced salami-slicing cuts that have gone right to the bone now. School Cuts Cymru reported that 69 per cent of schools in Wales have less funding now in real terms than they did in 2010.

For the majority, the Cameron-Clegg austerity has continued, despite us having five Prime Ministers since then. In reality, I'm sure that everyone, from students, parents, teachers, councillors to us here in the Senedd, are concerned about the state of education funding. However, under the current funding model from Westminster, if we ring-fence education, we have to be realistic that other areas will suffer. Therefore, I, like Cefin Campbell, am not convinced that we can, at the moment, ring-fence education funding. Diolch yn fawr.

I now call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education, Lynne Neagle.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I want to start by acknowledging ALN Reform Wales, who have brought this petition to the Senedd. I know that this is led by parents of children and young people with ALN, and I recognise that the concerns you are raising are rooted in your lived experience. I want you to know that I am listening. As Members know, I commissioned a review of the additional learning needs legislation, and that review has been completed. I will be making a statement on the outcome of that review and our Government response to it on 14 October. I will then be appearing in front of the Children, Young People and Education Committee the following week to be scrutinised on our reforms, including ALNET. I therefore plan to use the short time I have available today to address the financial issues raised by the petitioners.

In these challenging financial times, the Welsh Government has made a clear and principled choice, this year and last, to prioritise education funding. We are continuing to increase our investment in education, with an extra £262.5 million over this year and last, bringing our education budget to £1.8 billion a year, which helps to meet the needs of learners across Wales. I've also prioritised funding that goes directly to schools. In 2025-26 over £402 million is being provided through the local authority education grant to help local authorities, schools and settings support our learners, and this does not include funding we provide for our demand-led schemes, including universal primary free school meals and the school essentials grant, which will provide a further £126 million. And our commitment to continuing to prioritise support for learners with additional learning needs is unwavering. Since 2020, we’ve significantly increased investment in ALN, with over £150 million of revenue funding to local authority schools and settings to support implementation, increase resources in schools and lead whole-school strategies to embed inclusive education. The 2025-26 budget maintained the uplift of £10 million to support local authorities and schools in delivery of provision for learners with ALN, taking the ALN funding provided through the local authority education grant to £32 million.

We’ve also invested more than £170 million capital funding to improve facilities for ALN learners through our Sustainable Communities for Learning programme in the last five years, in addition to the £80 million capital allocated directly to local authorities to improve facilities and support inclusive learning environments. Programme partners have identified the need for a further investment of £750 million over the next nine years to expand and create specialist provision. Despite the significant pressures on public finances, the Welsh Government has prioritised investment in local authorities, who are responsible for funding schools and ALN. We’ve continued to invest by providing an increase of £262 million to the local government settlement this year, an uplift of 4.5 per cent. In the letter that was issued with the funding, we were clear as a Government that the additional funding was to meet the pressures in education, including in ALN, as well as social care.

I’m really pleased that we have agreed a shared ambition for education as part of the strategic partnership agreement with local government. I know that there are concerns about the extent to which that funding is reaching our schools. To help address the inconsistencies in how schools are funded by local authorities, we carried out a detailed review to look at this. As a result, I’m making improvements to ensure better transparency, comparability and consistency. This includes changes to the way spending is reported on ALN. The consultation on these changes has just closed and I will update the Senedd further in due course. Last year, we also, as I said, made changes to our grant funding to make sure that as much money as possible ends up in school budgets.

But, Dirprwy Lywydd, this is not just about numbers; it’s about outcomes. Improving educational standards in Wales continues to be my top priority, and I'm committed to achieving this for all our learners. To support improvement in educational standards, I'm clear that we need to improve attendance and deliver sustained improvement in attainment in literacy and numeracy—

You need to conclude now, please, Cabinet Secretary.

—so that every learner can fulfil their potential.

Llywydd, I'm not suggesting for one second that the additional moneys I've referred to address all the funding pressures in our schools. I know these pressures are real, and I will continue to discuss those pressures with schools and local authorities. And I will do everything I can to protect education funding, to protect children and young people's access to the support they need to thrive in their education. I look forward to updating the Senedd on our further plans for ALN next month. Diolch.

I call on Carolyn Thomas to reply to the debate.

I'd like to thank Members for their contributions today, and I hope that all Members will support the Welsh Government's 2026-27 budget going forward, which will provide funding for public services, including education.

The Children, Young People and Education Committee will also be aware of this petition as it goes forward through the budget-setting process. I'd like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for Education for her response, highlighting the funding given, and for the clarity as well, and also the commitment to ALN and education, which I really felt in your response. I'd like to thank the Business Committee for granting time for this important debate. I thank all of the petitioners and campaigners, who are advocating for the best possible outcome for their children and young people with additional learning needs. It has been really important, bringing this petition forward and highlighting the need for support for them through education, and it's really appreciated. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.

The proposal is to note the petition. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 7 today is the debate on the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee report, 'AI and the Welsh Economy: Can Welsh androids dream of electric sheep?' I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Andrew R.T. Davies.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and it's a pleasure to move the motion that stands in my name on the order paper this afternoon. If anyone does want to intervene, please do shout out, because my friend the pillar is blocking half of the Chamber out. [Interruption.] That's good, that is. [Laughter.]

I should note at the opening of this debate that it was the last inquiry overseen by my predecessor, Paul Davies, to whom I offer thanks for undertaking the Chairman's role in putting this report together. Paul and the committee decided that they wanted to hold a one-day inquiry into artificial intelligence and the Welsh economy because, despite the wide-ranging discourse on AI happening across the world, there was very little examination of the issue from the Welsh perspective.

Deputy Presiding Officer, as this is a short debate and I was not present at the evidence sessions, I do not want to take up too much time today with my opening remarks. [Interruption.] Nice to get a cheer. [Laughter.] I will, therefore, provide a quick overview of the issues in the report and then look forward to hearing Members' views.

Depending on who you speak to, the age of AI could usher in another industrial revolution, improving everything from economic productivity to medical diagnosis, or it could be the ultimate disaster, which will destroy our natural resources and replace us all. There is, of course, a third option—that AI may not lead to the revolutionary changes some of us are predicting, or that we might see a gradual change from it altogether. However, wherever you believe AI might take us, it is vital that there is a strong public discourse about the technology, that the policy makes understanding the changes that it brings, and that we, importantly, understand what might be needed to be done as a result of these changes.

The committee heard a lot of interesting evidence around AI. On the positive side, Members heard visions of sustainable Welsh AI models powered by our wind and cooled by our sea. On the more concerning side, the committee heard about the potential impact AI might have on the labour market. This report makes eight recommendations, based around ensuring that the Welsh Government is planning and preparing for the potential changes AI could bring.

This debate is also very timely, as we heard a lot about AI investment last week from the presidential state visit. We need to make sure that we are reaping the benefits of this technology and the potential of investments here in Wales. We can do all of this through a strong Welsh Government AI action plan, making sure we have the right skills in place.

The UK Government is establishing AI growth zones, and we have called on the Welsh Government to say how they will support these. I am pleased to see from the response that the Welsh Government have been working closely with the UK Government to submit a Welsh AI growth bid deal, and, since our inquiry took place, it has been confirmed that there will be a Welsh AI growth zone. I note that the UK Government said that they would announce the first zone in the summer, and last week there was an announcement that there is to be one in the north-east of England. So, I wonder if the Cabinet Secretary might be able to share any further details of the discussions she has had with the UK Government around AI growth zones today, and particularly if she has been given any indication of when we might hear about the Welsh bid.

Supporting businesses to understand and adopt AI technologies will be critical to maximising the potential benefits of AI. I would be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could update us on how the Welsh Government is working to ensure that businesses can access the help they need, and how it will be working with partners to address the gaps in that support.

We also heard about the potential downsides of the technology, and we recommended that the Welsh Government make themselves aware of which jobs are at risk. The workforce also needs to be equipped with the right skills to make sure we are making the most of AI, and the Welsh Government will need to prioritise ensuring this happens over the coming months and years. I am pleased to say that the Welsh Government has accepted all our recommendations, either in full or in principle.

Before I give way and open up the debate, I just wanted to pay a brief tribute to Hefin David, as he played a key role in this inquiry, and it is deeply sad that we will not hear his contribution to this debate this afternoon. I look forward to hearing other Members' views. Thank you.

I'd like to start by thanking everyone who was involved in the committee's work.

AI is very much the topic of our time. We could be forgiven for feeling like everybody is talking about it, from politicians to talk show pundits and, of course, those people who are on course to make millions and millions of pounds out of its proliferation. But, as the committee's report sets out, 'AI' is a widely used term that means different things to different people. It can also have multiple manifestations. In a lame attempt to sum it up somewhat simplistically, AI is, essentially, a new form, or another form, of automation. And as has been the case throughout the ages, the evolution of automation brings with it both opportunities and challenges, benefits and risks, hype and hope. So, I very much welcome being able to take part in today's debate on the committee's inquiry into AI in the Welsh economy.

The report references Institute for Public Policy Research evidence. It says that

'administrative jobs, which have a mostly female workforce, will be most exposed in the first phase of generative AI development, while more high-paying jobs are expected to be affected in future phases.'

Likewise, Trades Union Congress Cymru flagged how AI could also impact job quality in a negative way, providing examples of workers experiencing monitoring and being managed by AI systems that can set unrealistic targets that workers struggle to meet. In addition, creative workers feel their work will be used to generate supposedly new work by generative AI without their consent. So, what can we do? I was very tempted to ask ChatGPT, but our report does set out some recommendations in terms of skills and sector analysis, which should offer a baseline, alongside building on the guidance that has already been developed by the workforce partnership council. It also sets out the opportunity presented by new procurement legislation and guidance in shaping the social value of the use of AI in the public sector.

But, here in Wales, there may be further potential through the power of the public purse and support provided by Business Wales and the Development Bank of Wales. We need to develop clear expectations that could be linked to funding or included with remit letters. And in terms of the creative sector, there could be a role for Creative Wales and other bodies and the Welsh Government on the use of generative AI tools and content, and protection of back-stage, technical and support workers whose skills, labour or roles are impacted by generative AI. And of course—

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, sure.

Thank you very much. Something that was noted in Parliament, I think it was last week, was the infiltration of Americanisms being introduced into Parliament. I think it was Tom Tugendhat who mentioned it, that MPs were using, perhaps, ChatGPT or similar apps to aid them with their contributions. I've not seen any evidence of that here in the Senedd. But, in terms of contributions and speeches being authentic, and not creeping in too many words that wouldn't often be used, would that be something that you would be happy to note?

Yes, I hadn't picked that debate up, but I think it goes back to the crux of it: making sure that things are shaped, in a way, collaboratively, and actually that those biases are dealt with at a development stage as well. Of course, any changes that affect workplace practices and the like should be done in meaningful social partnerships, as everybody would expect me to say, and done with the workforce and organisations, not to them.

But it does actually, as we've heard, go beyond Wales, and goes beyond what we can do in Wales, and we do need monitoring and guard rails in law at a UK level, and collective action and approaches on a global scale. Productivity for the economy and protections for workers, who are the backbone of our economy, do not have to be mutually exclusive. We recognise that Wales doesn't want to be caught on the hop. AI technology is already here. It has been for some time. Indeed, the predictive text we've been so used to on our phones for a number of years now was probably an early precursor of some of that generative AI technology. But I think it's really important that nobody is left behind and that algorithms and automation are not enabled to exaggerate inequalities, whether that's in the workplace or wider society. I think, ultimately, we need to harness the power that may be there with AI to eradicate, not exacerbate, inequalities.

So, in closing, I think, Dirprwy Lywydd, because I know you're very conscious of time in this debate, it was Mark Zuckerberg who, when he established Facebook, said—. His motto was, 'Move fast and break things', to encourage rapid innovation and experimentation, with little concern for the potential negative consequences. He shifted that motto in 2014 to, 'Move fast with stable infrastructure', which doesn't quite roll off the tongue in the same way. But I would say, in closing, that I think, in Wales, with any approach we take, it should be to move fairly and use AI to make it work for Wales, and for work in Wales, for the better, and to create those workplaces and the country that we want to see and be. Diolch.

I really welcome the report. I think it's very timely and a serious contribution to a necessary debate. I think, as Hannah Blythyn just said, though, the whole world is talking about one subject at the moment and asking themselves the same question, about what AI can mean in terms of their economic and wider future. The task is how you separate the signal from the noise, really, and understand what it means for us specifically, and where the opportunities are. And I think, for me, it's useful to see this question through the lens of three contemporary economic thinkers, two Venezuelans and an Italian.

Ricardo Hausmann from Harvard University, his central point is that, in thinking about your economic future, you've got to think in terms of specifics rather than generalities. So, you've got to ask yourself: what do we produce and what could we produce? The ETRA report really touches on that in one of its recommendations, asking us to drill down to understand what is our competitive advantage. What do we produce well or what are we close to producing well, and how does AI help us to realise that potential? In a sense, every economy needs to know its own wiring, its own capabilities, its own networks and its tacit skills and knowledge, and that's both on the demand side and the supply side. What do I mean by that? Well, AI is both a technology that can help all sectors of the economy produce more effectively, drive up productivity, create new products and services, but it's also a supply side. So, we've got to map the Welsh economy both in terms of the broad and specific sectors at a granular level where we have that comparative advantage, and then we've got to understand our AI ecosystem as well. We're not starting from nothing: we have the likes of Amplyfi, et cetera. We have some emergent strengths in that AI ecosystem, but we need to map that space to understand where we can achieve success.

Carlota Perez is an economist about technological revolution, so she's really central to understanding the moment that we're living through. And there's some really good news here, Deputy Presiding Officer, because one of her central messages is that a technological revolution opens up a brief window when latecomers can leap, as she would say. So, in Wales’s current position, where we are relatively lower in terms of income per capita, et cetera, the technological revolution creates change, and in that moment, you can seize the opportunity. If you don't, however, she warns, if you miss the opportunity, then you end up importing somebody else's model. So, there's a crucial opportunity here, but we've got to grasp it.

And then finally, Mariana Mazzucato is a name that will be more familiar, I think. She talks about the importance of missions and, really, the centrality of government and of the state in creating innovation and economic development. The state, through its power to regulate, through its power to procure and through creating public infrastructure, can shape markets and create entire new sectors. So, that's why the Welsh Government is an absolutely central stakeholder here.

Now, taking all those together, what should we do? It chimes in some ways with the recommendations. Well, first of all we've got to map our product space. We've got to understand the Welsh economy in a more granular fashion than we currently do, to understand where we can actually apply AI and become leaders rather than laggards. As Amplyfi said in their evidence, one of the key areas is that we need access to capital, so we need an AI innovation fund that is focused—again, linking back to the product space—on where our potential is, but also where our missions are.

Linking back to Mariana Mazzucato’s work, we've got to look at public AI. So, rather than just having private sector owned data centres and, indeed, training sets, the models on which AI is based, we need to look at publicly owned opportunities there. We need to use procurement tools, creating, for example, Wales as a leader in terms of ethical AI. That's a growing sector. Wales is a good place to grow that subsector within AI. And we need to ally with others, I think, across the world who are asking the same questions. There are other small nations, cities and regions, et cetera, that are approaching this in a different way. We can learn from the best and partner with them, and hopefully catch that window that Carlota Perez has said is open to us at the moment.  

Firstly, I'd like to thank the Chair of the committee, Andrew R.T. Davies, for opening the debate; previous Chair, Paul Davies, for stewarding our one-day inquiry; and all those witnesses who gave evidence, be that written or oral. Let's be real. Everybody here in this Chamber, in this building, uses AI whether they know it or not, be that the subtitles on videos that we use on our social media, be that ChatGPT in helping us with speechwriting, and there's a lot of tells out there as well for those who know what to look out for, Dirprwy Lywydd, on whether someone is using ChatGPT. Too many hyphens; that's one of the things that ChatGPT tends to do is throw out a lot of hyphens in its text, so just something to bear in mind for those of you who just copy and paste without double-checking.

But I see huge opportunity in AI, and leading on from what Adam Price has talked about on AI integrating into our economy and what we already do well in Wales, but how do we integrate AI into that to maximise the benefits to our economy. Let's take a look at agriculture and the nitrate vulnerable zones and the water pollution regulations. The ability to integrate AI into the monitoring of nutrient levels in waterways, into when slurry should be spread or nitrate should be spread, that moves us away from a farming-by-calendar approach. That's a technological answer to what currently is a very constrictive system and set of regulations. That's where I think AI has real uses, in understanding the complexities of how the real world is, and giving that flexibility to it.

I always believe that AI has to have human interaction at the beginning and at the end. It can't be left to its own devices. I believe that wholeheartedly. As someone who uses AI within my office, I always ensure that I'm at the beginning of the process and at the end of the process, and that humans are involved in that. I think that would solve many of the issues. 

And around workforce and how the workforce will change because of AI, I think one of the key things is how members of the workforce then become trained to use AI themselves. So, the reskilling and upskilling of the workforce so that it's not doing away with jobs, it's changing the jobs themselves to a higher skill set. The prompts that are needed to use AI are really important. If you're looking to feed into a generative AI certain prompts, the more descriptive, the more prescriptive you can be in deciding what you want that AI to look at, the better the outcome will be. The more generic you are, the less skill set you have in prompting AI, then the weaker the answers are going to be. So, I think that's where there's a lot of strength to be garnered, in how we upskill our workforce to be able to integrate AI, use AI as we go forward. 

What I really liked as well is—. Credit to the Government for accepting or accepting in principle the eight recommendations of the committee. I think that's good. I hope that's not too high a number of committee recommendations after what the First Minister said earlier this week; I think it's about the right level, there or thereabouts. We need to maximise the opportunity here, because so many countries are at the forefront of this. Everybody's scrambling around to try and be at the forefront. Adam was completely correct in saying this is our opportunity to be looking at this, and other countries are going to be doing things specific to them. What's going to be specific to us in Wales with artificial intelligence? That's where I think there's an opportunity for Welsh Government, for a body. I think it is right that it should be Welsh Government leading where that is, working with the United Kingdom Government as well. I think there's a huge opportunity for us to strengthen our economy in Wales by using artificial intelligence.

I'm pleased that our committee took time to look into this report, and I've used no notes in this, in tribute to Hefin David, who is greatly missed. I would have liked to have heard his contribution on this. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Peter Fox.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thanks for indulging me. This is a really important subject, and I thank Andrew and his committee, and Paul Davies before him, for pulling this report together. AI is confronting us everywhere. We see it all day long. We don't always know we're using it, but it advises us every time we look at Google; it gives us alternatives and things like that. But we've seen how dangerous it can be as well, or rather the threats around the cyber side of things. Just look at Jaguar Land Rover and how things can happen. Ironically, it will be AI itself that will be challenging us in the future and presenting those cyber worries around AI itself. So, that's really quite concerning.

I know the committee referenced some of the good work that was happening in UK Government, in section 9 of your report, and talked about their recognition and some of the issues. But I noted in the response to your recommendations, from the Government, the Government didn't reflect on that important area of security and how they are going to pay cognisance to the future security arrangements around managing AI in our environment going forward, and I think that might be a bit remiss. So, I would ask the Cabinet Secretary to perhaps reflect on that a little and to think how they are going to make a statement, perhaps, around how they can engage in that regard going forward. Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning, Rebecca Evans.

I'm really, really grateful to the committee for its report and also for all of the recommendations on the topic of AI and the economy. Because AI, arguably, represents the biggest technological change that our world has seen since the advent of the internet, and I think there are opportunities there that are huge, and the First Minister is certainly cognisant of those. She's taking a really strong personal interest in this particular issue.

Economic superpowers and global digital and technology companies are, at the moment, investing billions of pounds right around the world in pursuit of advancements and deploying the technology, and Wales is already playing a really, really important part in that, because we've got multibillion-pound investments here in Wales under way from Vantage Data Centers and Microsoft, and they're bringing hyperscale data centre campuses here to south Wales. The Welsh Government has actually enabled that transformative investment, and we did that through our strategic land development and also by working really closely with the sector, to ensure that the robust energy supply that they need is available.

So, in accordance with the committee's recommendation to support AI growth zone developments, and to address potential consequences relating to resources, we will continue to work with key data centre developers to ensure that there is sensitive and sensible investment across Wales, matching the development with low-carbon energy sources wherever possible, and also data centre designs that mitigate impacts on water use. The opportunities for new start-up companies to develop and exploit AI tools and services are really significant, and we're creating the supportive ecosystem to provide conditions to enable that growth to happen.

In response to the committee's recommendation for the workforce skills agenda, we will continue to work with our universities and our skills development partners to ensure that the knowledge that they hold translates into future skills pathways opportunities that are available to entrepreneurs, but also to our existing and future workforces. We know from our existing AI companies that the talent that's produced from our institutions is really highly valued, and the Development Bank of Wales is already investing in AI businesses. With all of that, I really do think that we have all the ingredients that we need to really grow the sector.

I should say though, as other colleagues have recognised, that there are some risks around AI use, including the potential for bias in the data used to deliver those AI services, disruption, impact on the labour market, and concerns about misinformation. That's why ensuring AI technologies are used in responsible, ethical, inclusive and safe ways is so vital.

We also recognise the need for change and the need to support industries that face real challenges, as AI affects the business model of companies, and the demands on the people who they employ. And that extends to the guidance required to ensure job quality and equality issues for both public and private sector. Our strategic AI advisory group, which met again today, bringing that important industry expertise to the Welsh Government, and also our social partnership approach will be really instrumental in guiding our work in this particular area, including responding to the committee's recommendation on considering how procurement of AI is incorporated into guidance.

Having recognised those risks, there are obviously huge opportunities that Wales is really well positioned to grasp, with benefits for our economy and for our wider society. I'm really determined that we do that. Innovative and effective use of data, including artificial intelligence, is a core component of our digital strategy for Wales, and it's helping to improve our public services, as well as growing the Welsh economy. We already have some really fantastic examples of how AI deployment is having a really positive impact on the citizens of Wales, with successful Welsh Government-supported trials of the Ibex AI platform to increase breast cancer detection rates and the deployment of Beam Magic Notes to enhance efficiency and improve administrative tasks, decision making and services for adult social care teams in Neath Port Talbot.

We want to inspire businesses to adopt and embrace digital and data-driven innovations to drive productivity, resilience and sustainability—futureproofing their prospects and creating well-paid jobs that will last. In line with the report's recommendations, we are already building on our support offer with partners to deliver effective provisions to businesses to ensure they adopt and benefit from AI, and we will target more tailored support where that's needed. This Government, in the delivery of our digital strategy for Wales, is working in really close collaboration with multiple stakeholders, including the UK Government, private sector technology companies and academic institutions to harness the best that each sector can bring.

In direct response to the committee's first recommendation—delivering our AI action plan and the AI growth zone—will be a collaborative effort across the Welsh Government, UK Government and local government with our wider partners in the economy, including the trade unions. Together, we really can build on the significant investments already made and those planned for the future. AI infrastructure is a necessary precondition for our future economy—

You need to conclude now, please, Cabinet Secretary.

—and, as the committee report recommends, we're determined to build on the ecosystem around it to reap the benefits. We'll capitalise on the strengths and the areas of competitive advantage that we have here in Wales.

I call on Andrew R.T. Davies to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank everyone who has contributed to the debate this afternoon? I'd also like to put on the record my thanks to the committee clerking team for pulling the witnesses together and pulling the final report together that we've just debated.

Many members who contributed today focused on the potential employment opportunities that exist out there, but also the drawbacks in terms of some of the jobs that IT and AI might replace. I draw Members' attention to the Nicky Campbell show that was on Monday morning. They highlighted the development of AI and how some of the graduate jobs are slowly disappearing now. Actually, people are being directed back to the traditional trades, because you still need a plumber, you still need an electrician to fix some of those bolts and nuts and things like that that AI will make no difference to. That was one of the enlightening moments of the week, I thought, from my perspective, where you heard the two sides of the argument, where there are benefits and there are clearly drawbacks from it. That was represented in all the contributions this afternoon.

Adam Price said you've got to follow the signal rather than follow the noise. That's a key requirement for any Government working with our UK colleagues at the other end of the M4, because the regulatory environment is set there, but the economic development potential and the roll-out into public services is obviously commissioned here, by the Welsh Government.

The Cabinet Secretary touched on the diagnosis opportunities that are available to the NHS, for example, with the use of AI. In many NHS provisions now, there is greater use of AI than anyone could have imagined only two or three years ago, and it will continue at pace. That creates training opportunities, as well as promotional opportunities for people who want to adopt this new technology—or not so new now.

To me, it was summed up this week, when my youngest daughter, who is out in New Zealand at the moment, at 10.30 p.m. on Tuesday night, I think it was, FaceTimed in from the top of a mountain there. She was by Ashburton in New Zealand and we were in Cowbridge in the Vale of Glamorgan. As if you were in the same room together, that technology was joining a conversation between parent and child. That really did emphasise the shrinking world that we live in at the moment, and it's something to be embraced. But we must never forget, also, the dangers in the wrong hands of this technology, and, in particular, the manipulation of that technology to darker forces that ultimately want to do harm to this country and harm to the services that many people depend on as well.

With that, I look forward to seeing the recommendations of the committee's report being implemented by the Welsh Government. Because, as Sam Kurtz highlighted, the Government have accepted the recommendations, either in their entirety or in principle, and the report is set to be a constructive report, to work with Government. I’m sure the committee, before the end of the Senedd term, will revisit to see how those recommendations are being implemented and what difference they are making. But once again, I thank everyone for contributing to this report, and in particular the positivity around the agenda that was being pursued by the committee. Thank you very much.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 8 this afternoon is a debate on the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee's report: 'Annual scrutiny: National Infrastructure Commission for Wales 2024'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Llyr Gruffydd. 

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's my pleasure to lead this debate today on the annual report on the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales. Our report considers the commission's work in the 2023-24 year and progress towards its wider work programme. It also considers the commission's future in the context of the Welsh Government's recent audit of the commission's work.

We made 10 recommendations. Two of these are to the commission itself, which has responded positively to them, if I may say, and eight are for the Welsh Government. The Government has accepted five of our recommendations and has accepted three in principle.

The National Infrastructure Commission for Wales is a body created, funded, and appointed by the Welsh Government. The chair and commissioners were appointed for a three-year term from 2021-22 to 2024-25. Since then, the term of the commission has been extended, first to December 2025, and again extended further—in response to a report by this committee, as it happens—to September 2026. These short-term extensions do illustrate some of the uncertainties that we feel hamper the commission's work, and I will return to this point later on.

The commission was established to be an independent, non-statutory, advisory body to Welsh Ministers. Its primary purpose is to make recommendations to the Welsh Government about Wales's long-term infrastructure needs. In this Senedd, it has published two major reports: one on renewable energy, and another on flood mitigation. It is currently taking forward work on climate communication, and it also plans to provide a Wales infrastructure assessment next year.

Last year, in presenting the committee's report, I drew attention to the difficulties in assessing the impact of the commission on the Government due to the Government's failure to provide timely and clear responses to commission's recommendations. In its report on renewable energy, the commission recommended that the Government should provide a timeline for the production of a national energy plan for Wales. The Government responded by committing

'to develop a National Energy Plan for Wales by the end of 2024.'

Recommendation 7 in our report endorses this aim, of course. It has been accepted in principle by the Government this time. But in her response, the Cabinet Secretary says, and I quote:

'Since we committed to delivering a National Energy Plan in December 2021, the situation across the UK has changed significantly. There has been a growing recognition that we will only reach a low carbon energy system at least cost and impact through a planned approach.'

So far so good. But then, over an entire page, the Minister proceeds to set out why no activity is taking place to support this aim, and that it is no longer committed to developing a plan at all. Would it not be more straightforward to admit that the Government is, in fact, as well as rejecting recommendation 7 of the committee's report, also rejecting the recommendation of the national infrastructure commission?

The Welsh Government asked the commission to assess

'how the nationwide likelihood of flooding of homes, businesses and infrastructure can be minimised by 2050.'

It published its report, including 17 recommendations for the Welsh Government, in October 2024. At the time of our inquiry, the Government still hadn't responded to that report. The response finally came in April.

This leads me to the committee's recommendation 3:

'the Welsh Government must agree a specific timescale to respond to Commission reports.'

The Government has accepted this recommendation. It has now put in place a timescale, but at six months, this is twice as long as suggested by the committee. We remain of the view that there should be a response to the commission's recommendations within timescales that are specific and that are similar to those of Senedd committees or the interim environmental protection assessor for Wales.

Last year, the committee recommended that

'The Welsh Government must deliver on its commitment to undertake a comprehensive review of the Commission’s status, role and objectives before the end of 2024.'

The resulting internal audit service report appears to have been conducted diligently. It makes helpful suggestions for improvement, many of which are already being implemented by the commission. But the report hasn't led to any firm conclusions around its status, its remit, its objectives, or indeed its funding as a commission. In the view of the committee, a review that fails to draw conclusions on these major strategic issues can't be considered to be comprehensive.

I'm pleased that the Government has accepted our recommendation 2, and extended the term of the chair and commissioners beyond the next election. However, after the Senedd elections, a further decision point is imminent. The Welsh Government will need to consider whether the commission is strengthened, with adequate resources and powers to undertake its role, and whether this should include a national assessment of Wales's infrastructure needs for the coming decades.

The principal aim of the commission is to provide radical, challenging and evidence-informed advice and guidance to Welsh Government that will inform and futureproof decisions on infrastructure deployment from 2030 right up to 2100. The commission has delivered on the first, however we've not seen evidence that its advice is actually informing Welsh Government decisions. Without this, the commission won't have the impact that we should all expect.

Last year, the committee suggested that there's merit in the commission undertaking a national infrastructure assessment, comparable to the five-year assessments undertaken by the UK National Infrastructure Commission. And whilst the commission hasn't been given the resources to carry out a national infrastructure assessment commensurate with that undertaken by its UK counterpart, it has sought to develop an approach to this work that could present the beginnings of a work programme for the next commission.

So, frankly, what I'm saying is that our committee, our report, has one overarching theme, in reality: that it's time for the Welsh Government to treat the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales seriously. If Wales is to be ready for the challenges of the future, the Government must back the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales, giving them the resources they need to conduct an infrastructure assessment in Wales, and giving their recommendations and reports the attention they are due.

I look forward to hearing everyone's comments in response to the report.

I thank the Chair of the committee and the committee team for their work. I would also like to thank the commission for their work. I would like to focus my comments on flooding, mainly. The report highlights the very real risks facing more and more communities. The reports published by our committee have done that many times. The delays that we are still seeing before getting a Government response to the commission on flooding from last year continue to prevent our communities from doing the necessary work to empower themselves in the face of the challenges associated with more inclement weather.

Of course, we are discussing infrastructure here, but infrastructure is not just a technical matter. It has to connect with people. So, what the Chair has been saying here about the need for the commission to have greater resources, the necessary resources, will improve the quality of life of our people, because the impacts of flooding are worse for people than they are for buildings. Because it's difficult to measure the impact of anxiety and concern in relation to flooding. It's also difficult to measure the impact of fear and trauma, but we do have to count those costs somehow. That is what is at stake.

I would like to press the Government for a greater response to these recommendations. We must keep flooding at the forefront of our minds in any discussions about community resilience. There must be a focus on resilience when it comes to the challenges of flooding, landslides and coal tip safety. Likewise, flood resilience is not just a matter related to barriers and drainage, although they are, of course, extremely important—it's also about its impact on everyday life, about uncertainty. We must count the human cost of these events.

To conclude, Dirprwy Lywydd, I hope that our report will remind people of the need for this. We must keep our communities at the heart of our discussions, be that in terms of what we're talking about, the work of the commission, or infrastructure in general. We must keep our people's pain and concern at the heart of our discussions. We must always remember the human element.

I'm pleased to contribute to this debate, and I'd like to thank the committee for its work. The National Infrastructure Commission for Wales has been doing extremely important work, and I was pleased to hear the comments by the Chair in terms of giving that long-term certainty, and also emphasising that this is vital work if we're going to tackle the climate emergency.

Like Delyth, I was going to focus my comments on flooding and the report that they did in terms of flood mitigation. Members of the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales did come to an event that I organised in Pontypridd, where it was five years following storm Dennis, and members of the communities around Pontypridd who had suffered flooding were present.

What was very encouraging to see, in having the commissioners there speaking with victims of the flooding, was seeing that they had presented recommendations to the Government that would make a difference—not just providing advice to communities in terms of placing their plugs higher and so forth, but suggestions that would mean that communities such as the one I live in, and such as those in Ynys-y-bwl and so forth, are part of the development of plans.

I want to see us proceeding with having some kind of flood forum for Wales. That was central to this report. And I also share the frustration that was expressed by the committee that it's taking so long to have a response from the Government, never mind implementing the recommendations. I would like to hear from the Cabinet Secretary how the work is proceeding to put things in place.

I am concerned—. If you consider storm Dennis in 2020—this report came out from the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales in 2024. We still haven't seen any movement on this. And by now, some of the people in these communities have suffered flooding maybe three or four times, and have seen nothing changing. So, it's about time for us to see these recommendations being implemented.

I would like to see long-term assurance in terms of the commission. I think that we all, hopefully, welcome the fact that there has been an extension. But the fact that an election is happening shouldn't mean that we're not moving more quickly in terms of tackling the climate emergency. I would like to ask, therefore, for an update from the Government. How are you going to proceed to implement these recommendations, and when will communities such as those in Pontypridd see these in our communities making a difference? 

The Cabinet Secretary now to contribute to the debate. Rebecca Evans.

Diolch. I'm very happy to be able to respond to the debate today and also to highlight the really important work that's being undertaken by the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales. I would like to thank the committee for the work that they've done, the report on the commission, and also their ongoing scrutiny of its work.

The Welsh Government recognises the importance of the commission's role in advising on our long-term infrastructure needs, and we really do value the commission's contributions, from its incisive renewable energy report to its recent work on flooding resilience.

I know that my colleague the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs will be particularly keen to read the commission's forthcoming report on climate adaptation and community engagement, and I know that he has been having meetings with the commission following the flooding recommendations.

The committee's report calls on us to give greater priority to Wales's future infrastructure needs, and we completely agree. Effective long-term planning is essential, and this is the space in which the commission operates. The committee highlighted examples from elsewhere where comprehensive national infrastructure assessments have helped to guide investment, and in Wales we want the commission to play a central role in this. So, to this end, as part of its 2025-26 work, the commission has been funded to carry out a short-form infrastructure assessment, which will look at the energy, digital, water, circular economy and transport sectors.

I haven't prepared anything for this debate, but I did want to speak about the national infrastructure commission. I spoke with them for advice regarding community energy and how communities could actually own a pylon to help bring their energy down, and I was really interested in what they had to say. So, I am very supportive of the work that they have done, and I wondered if you have had conversations with them regarding their report on renewable energy and how it can help to improve communities so that they can have cheaper energy bills.

Thank you. Yes, I have indeed met with the commission, and one of my big impressions, really, of the commission is the expertise that sits within the commission but then also the access that they have to the wider networks of expertise as well. So, if members don't know the answer, they'll certainly know somebody who does, and I think that that's one of their real strengths, really, the breadth at which they're able to access expertise across a whole range of areas, such as digital, water, the circular economy and so on. So, the work that I referred to will be reporting before March of next year so that the Welsh Government can consider what the most pressing infrastructure needs for Wales are as we look, then, to that next Senedd term. 

In terms of the future role and structure of the commission, I've previously said that this will be for a new Welsh Government to consider, and that does remain my view. And there are other really important issues that have been identified by the committee, too, such as the time taken to respond to the reports. That is really important, and I do take on board the Chair's comments this afternoon. I think that, rather than just simply using an arbitrary measure of time, we do also need to consider the quality of the responses as well, and we do try to respond in the best quality way that we can. But obviously I do take on board those points about time.

In January we completed the commission's first internal review, and its positive findings do confirm that the commission remains a valuable addition to the Welsh policy-making landscape, and it does make some recommendations to strengthen the commission further. I've already addressed one of those immediate issues, and that was that, when I met with the chair and the deputy chair in July, I offered them an extension to their current roles until September 2026, which they've accepted, and we're currently going through the process now of confirming this with the other commissioners. That, then, will ensure that there is some continuity so that the commission can continue its work whilst a new Government considers the next steps for the organisation. A future administration will have its own views, but I do hope that the cross-party consensus on the need for strategic infrastructure planning will endure.

So, in closing, I just want to reiterate that the Welsh Government is fully committed to planning for Wales's future infrastructure needs. The commission has already proven its worth by publishing high-quality reports and opinion pieces and, of course, keeping up the challenge to Welsh Government Ministers and officials on the implementation of their recommendations. Wales's big infrastructure challenges do require long-term vision and decisive action, and the commission absolutely provides that long-term lens. And our job in Government, then, is to act on it. So, we'll continue to work constructively with the commission and with the committee to deliver the resilient, sustainable infrastructure that our communities and future generations both need and deserve.

Thank you. Llyr Gruffydd now to reply to the debate. 

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and thank you to the Minister for her response. Time is limited, I know, but despite the short-term nature of funding and uncertainty as to the future of the role of the chair and commissioners in the longer term—and I think that there is an irony in the fact that a body that is supposed to look to the longer term don't know if they'll be here in a year or not—despite all of this, they as individuals have continued to produce valuable and challenging reports and have made a meaningful contribution to wider policy discussions on future infrastructure. Despite those limited resources, their energy and commitment as commissioners has been unerring, and I think that we should thank them for their work.

Now, as I said earlier, there is one theme to the committee's report, to all intents and purposes: it's about time the Welsh Government took the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales seriously. I am disappointed in the number of Members who have contributed to the debate, and I think that it's a broader symptom beyond the Government in that sense. If Wales is to be ready for the challenges of the future, then the Government and this Senedd have to support such a commission and to provide sufficient resources to such a commission to do that work and to carry out infrastructure assessments in Wales and to give due attention, then, to the recommendations made in its reports. That hasn't happened sufficiently to date. I hope that this report and this debate, hopefully, will at least actually encourage the Government and each and every one of us as Senedd Members to give due attention to the commission and its work from now on. Thank you.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed.

Item 9 is next, the Welsh Conservatives debate on the NHS, and James Evans will move the motion.

Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion tabled in the name of my colleague Paul Davies. I want to begin with a principle that we must all in this Chamber stand firm with: that the NHS in Wales should remain free at the point of delivery and publicly funded. That is a non-negotiable for us on these benches and I'm sure it's a non-negotiable for the majority of parties in this Senedd. We will never allow an insurance-based system to take its place here in Wales, even when there are those in the political scene now who want to rip our NHS apart. But if we truly believe in that principle, we cannot ignore what is happening today. Since the last Senedd election, nearly 40,000 people have died while waiting for treatment in the Welsh NHS. At the same time, the number of patient pathways has risen by almost a third, with over 600,000 people, one in five of our population, currently on a waiting list. These are not just numbers, they are families, neighbours and friends who deserve timely care but who are left waiting. This is the human cost of a health system that is under intolerable strain.

Now, let me turn to the Labour amendment that asks us to welcome more funding and to celebrate the longest waits that are lower than at their peak. But I want to be clear: we can't celebrate when in Wales we still have 8,000 people still waiting for more than two years for treatment, compared with only 244 in England. We cannot celebrate when the average wait of 21 weeks conceals the pain of the reality of patients enduring months, sometimes years, of delays. And while targeted screening programmes for lung and bowel cancers are positive, and we support those on these benches, we must be clear that we need a comprehensive cancer action plan for Wales. We're the only part of the United Kingdom not to have one, and we need one here sooner rather than later.

The Plaid Cymru amendment, as is to be expected, seeks to pin the blame entirely on Westminster. Well, nothing changes there, does it? Of course, decisions in London do affect Wales, and no-one can dispute that, but for a quarter of a century of devolution, it is Welsh Ministers who must answer for their own promises. It was here in Cardiff Bay that pledges to eliminate two-year waits were made, and it was in this Chamber that they were broken. It is here that waiting lists have grown by 30 per cent since 2021. Patients cannot be told to look elsewhere for answers when the reality is that the decisions that are made here in Wales affect their lives, not those ones made in Westminster.

And let's be honest, Labour has not been governing alone, have they? Their failures have been enabled by their partners in Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats, who have chosen to prop up a Government that has left waiting lists to spiral out of control, broken promise after broken promise—[Interruption.] Yes, yes, just two seconds, Heledd. And instead of standing up for patients, they have stood firmly with Labour and let patients in Wales down, and it's the patients across Wales who are paying the price.

Your fingerprints are all over it.

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, I'll take an intervention.

Can you tell me when did Plaid Cymru have a Minister for health and what their name was, and when did Plaid Cymru have a First Minister over the past 26 years?

Why didn't you support their budgets, then? Why support their budgets?

So, Heledd Fychan, you may not have had somebody in Welsh Government—. You actually did a few years ago; I think the Llywydd was in Government at one time—

No, a health Minister and a First Minister.

But, actually, let me be very clear with Plaid Cymru—

The Llywydd, I'll have you know, was very proud to serve in that Government.

I'm sure you were, Llywydd. Plaid Cymru have been in Government here in Wales, and they had a co-operation agreement with Labour, and you supported their budgets until it was politically convenient to do something else. The face of the separatist does not change here.

Fingerprints all over it. Fingerprints all over it. For Labour, see Plaid Cymru.

You can't hide away from what you have done in the past. That is why the people of Wales need something different. They're tired of the establishment here and that's why we need Welsh Conservatives in Government in Wales, calling for a different approach, because when I am the health Minister, we will declare a health emergency across Wales—declare it and act upon it, not as a slogan, like the Welsh Government like to pump out from time to time, but we'll do things as a mobilising force, directing every layer of Government to cut waiting times, to cut waste, and we'll save lives. And what does that mean? It means a root-and-branch review of the NHS structures across Wales, because every other party is too frightened to do it. It's a maximum one-year wait for treatment, like they have in England. We shouldn't be second-class citizens here in Wales. And we'll have a seven-day GP appointment guarantee, because people need to see their GPs if we are to save other elements of our health service. But, to do this, we will need the largest recruitment and retention plan the Welsh NHS has ever seen, because we'll invest in our workforce, something that Labour and Plaid Cymru have never done. And we'll do something that socialism doesn't like.

Will you take an intervention?

We'll restore choice back to patients, a choice to decide where they can be seen, what clinicians they want to go to, and, if they want to go over the border to England for care, they should be allowed to do so, not hindered by socialism.

Yes, I'll take an intervention, Carolyn.

Thank you. I'd just say about investing, then, in the workforce: do you believe in investing in public services, then, and not cutting them?

As a former local government cabinet member, I agree with investing in local services. The problem is they kept being cut by Labour, who wanted to waste money on vanity projects.

So, would you support the budget?

I've already taken an intervention, Carolyn. If you want to come back, I'll take another one if you want to stand back up, but I don't think it's that type of debate.

But, Llywydd, what we really need to address, in my opinion, is one of our biggest issues, and that is waiting lists. They have to be driven down, and one of the clearest ways to tackle waiting lists is through surgical hubs, dedicated sites planned for operations, keeping them separate from emergency pressures. These hubs ring-fence resources and ensure that elective procedures go ahead without being cancelled, without accident and emergency demand spikes and surgical room spikes. Clinical care needs to be a priority in these surgical hubs.

In England—. I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary will say I like mentioning England all the time, and I probably do, because it's doing better than Wales. In England, surgical hubs have transformed recovery. Over 100 surgical hubs are now operational, with independent evaluation showing they have delivered tens of thousands more procedures than would have otherwise been possible. In fact, the Health Foundation found that NHS trusts with surgical hubs carried out 11 per cent more elective surgery than they would have without them. That's 50,000 extra procedures in just one year alone. Could you imagine if we had half that in Wales—the difference it would make to those people who are waiting, to staff morale and patient satisfaction? They've improved in England, and, if we had it here in Wales, they would improve here as well.

But what do we have here in Wales? The Cabinet Secretary has promised us surgical hubs, but we only have one operational at the minute, and the other ones have been cancelled or delayed and not promised til 2026 or 2027. So, more and more people will have to wait in pain while this Welsh Labour Government dithers and delays. The truth is that those three surgical hubs on their own will not be enough. Our waiting list is now over 793,000 pathways. Audit Wales have already warned that the funding that Welsh Government has put in has simply slowed the growth of waiting lists; it has not reduced them. So, unless we embed surgical hubs at the heart of our health strategy, history will repeat itself time and time again.

This is why, in the Welsh Conservatives, we are clear. We would put the expansion of surgical hubs at the centre of our recovery plan. We would publish a clear strategy, set strict timescales and use existing capacity wherever possible to speed up delivery. This is about political will, and patients cannot wait any longer.

But it also means cutting waste. Labour has poured money into the system, but with little to show for it. What we don't need in our NHS is more managers and more directors. We need more nurses, doctors and front-line staff, and we support the Royal College of Nursing's call to end corridor care, one of the biggest shames of our health service here in Wales. We also listen to the British Medical Association, who have warned of a deep crisis, waits measured in years, patients treated in corridors, doctors leaving the profession or this country, because they see no future here in the NHS. This is not the NHS our parents and grandparents remember, and it is not the NHS that our people in Wales pay for and deserve.

So, we will be clear: on day one, that health emergency, we'll restore accountability, cut waiting times, expand surgical hubs, invest in staff and put patients not politics back at the heart of our NHS. Because every statistic that we debate here today represents a life, a family. Too many of those stories, endlessly, of those who have lost their lives because we haven’t got on top of this problem. We cannot let this continue. It’s time for action. It’s time to end the decline of our NHS. It can’t come soon enough. Let’s have a Welsh Conservative Government and let’s fix Wales.

I have selected the amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. The Cabinet Secretary for health to move formally amendment 1.

Formally.

Mabon ap Gwynfor to move amendment 2, therefore.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. I’m grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate, as it makes three very important points. Firstly, despite a humiliating defeat at the ballot box last July, which saw every one of their MPs evicted from Wales and poll ratings plunge into ever-new depths, the original motion emphatically underlines that the Tories have learned precisely nothing from the experiences of the last few years. There’s the conspicuous lack of even a shred of humility for a decade and a half of Tory-orchestrated austerity, which caused over 330,000 excess deaths across this island, and which continues to have disproportionately adverse impacts on health outcomes here in Wales. Then there’s the failure to acknowledge how the previous UK Tory Government did little to hide their enthusiasm for opening up the NHS to privatisation, such as expanding the role of the private finance initiative, nor indeed their culpability for their Brexit vanity project, which has significantly inflated the cost of drugs for the NHS—

Will you take an intervention on that point, Mabon?

I'd like to make some more progress first, Gareth.

And the misleading characterisation of the co-operation agreement, which, in reality, had no relevance to this Government’s record on health whatsoever, as they well know, typifies their contempt towards the intelligence of the electorate. This is a party with no shame, no responsibility, and, increasingly, as a consequence, no future. But their raging in the face of their headlong descent to electoral oblivion—

Will you take an intervention?

—does serve a useful purpose insofar as it sharpens our attention on what will replace them.

Are you taking an intervention?

In a minute.

Because the far-right outfit that they helped to nurture and that’s now eating them alive isn’t just a raft for failed former Tories who have already inflicted immense damage upon our nation, it’s also a vehicle for shady corporate interests and the unaccountable mega rich to realise long-held ambitions of flogging off our most precious national assets to the highest bidder. James.

Mabon, you say that Plaid Cymru have had nothing to do with health policy here in Wales, but you've supported keeping this Welsh Labour Government in power by voting for their budget since 2021, when your previous leader, Adam Price, signed the co-operation agreement with Labour. So, you have to understand that you are culpable in all the failings in our NHS. If you did not—[Interruption.] If you did not like the outcome and the way that Welsh Labour was running the NHS, you should not have supported their budgets.

James, with respect, I don’t think you, nor your colleagues, understand what co-operation is. It was around 46 specific policy areas, and health wasn’t there because we couldn't agree on the health policies. So, you know, that’s what grown-up politics is about; you might want to learn about it and try it some time.

Furthermore, the far right’s fascistic plans for mass deportations of thousands of people who live and work here legally would have particularly devastating implications for our health and social care services. It bears repeating once again that the NHS would not exist without the tireless devotion and dedicated service of its migrant workforce. They should be lauded as heroes, not demonised as part of the problem. To quote the Royal College of Nursing, it’s a plan 'abhorrent beyond words' that runs contrary to everything that the NHS stands for. So, make no mistake: the future of the NHS is on the line at next year’s election.

So, the question for us all who value our NHS free at the point of need is: how best do we counter this threat from the far right? We know already that Labour has had over 26 years to prove their competence as stewards of our NHS, with very little to show for it in driving improved standards. Over the current Senedd term alone, this Government has spent over £1.5 billion on measures to tackle waiting lists only to see the backlog increase by almost 200,000 people in that time. Even the very low bar that the First Minister set herself to reduce two-year waits below 8,000 by this spring, itself a significant dilution of the original target to eliminate such waits completely by March 2023, has not been met.

The process of lifting the NHS back on its feet, fit to face the challenges of future decades, will necessarily require a long-term process of renewal, including the reforms of governance architecture that we set out last year. But getting to grips with Labour's long waiting lists is essential to provide the NHS with room to breathe so that these reforms can take root.

This brings us to the final point that this motion, helpfully, makes, that only Plaid Cymru has the answers and the plan to tackle Labour's damaging legacy head-on. We called on the Welsh Government to declare a health emergency all the way back in February 2024, so it's great to see other parties follow our lead. And when it comes to establishing elective care hubs and expanding access to rapid diagnostic clinics to deal with Wales's woeful record on cancer survival rates, as well as other measures, such as putting in place executive triage services to streamline referrals and enhance the role of telemedicine in primary care settings, they all featured in the waiting lists plan we launched back in January, which was strongly endorsed by a range of senior healthcare professionals.

So, if the Tories are serious about making progress in this area, they should be happy to support our amendment to call on the Government to implement Plaid Cymru's plan without delay. And, as we've proven time and time again, when it comes to protecting its fundamental character as a public institution free at the point of need, the NHS couldn't be in any safer hands than those of a Plaid Cymru Government.

It is regrettable that, once again, we are having to debate the dire state of the NHS, to debate how political mismanagement over the past 26 years has put clinicians under tremendous pressure and left patients to suffer and die needlessly. You have a 50:50 chance of an ambulance arriving on time, and you are not always guaranteed one will show up on the same day. Fewer than two thirds of cancer patients start definitive treatment within the 62-day target—that is, if they can get to see a GP in order to start the clock in the first place.

However, thanks to the hard work and efforts of individual clinicians, we still see improvements in care pathways, and I want to highlight one such case. One of my earliest short debates in this Senedd spoke of the importance of prehabilitation, particularly in cancer treatment. At that time, I had the pleasure of speaking to Dr Rhidian Jones, who had set up a programme in Bridgend to ensure better surgical outcomes. Rhidian worked with colleagues in Cardiff and Vale who were developing a Prehab2Rehab pilot programme for cancer patients. Well, nearly three years on from the debate, Prehab2Rehab has been hailed as a huge success by Public Health Wales.

For those who need a refresher, prehabilitation involves tailored exercise plans, dietary guidance and access to services, including specialist pharmacies, cardiology clinics and pre-operative assessments. Studies around the world have shown that, coupled with post-operative rehab programmes, patients' outcomes are greatly improved.

However, we now have evidence from closer to home of the value of prehabilitation. Public Health Wales’s evaluation of the Cardiff and Vale Prehab2Rehab programme showed clear benefits for patients and the wider NHS. Those taking part in the scheme told the evaluation team that they felt better informed, more motivated to adopt healthy habits and reassured by strong peer-support networks formed with other patients. Dr Esther Mugweni, deputy head of evaluation at Public Health Wales, said that the approach could ease pressures on stretched NHS resources. She said that by reducing time spent in hospital, the programme not only supports patients, but also has a potential wider benefit to NHS resources. It is great to see how patients are being supported both in making positive lifestyle changes and in finding strength from others going through similar experiences. This is what Dr Rhidian Jones, myself and others have been saying for years. Prehab work saves patients and it saves money in the long run. If the Welsh Government are serious about protecting the NHS, as well as improving patient outcomes, then I urge the Cabinet Secretary to rapidly roll out rehabilitation programmes across all parts of the NHS, starting with cancer pathways and expanding rapidly to all planned surgical care. The success of Prehab2Rehab shows that if clinicians are allowed to innovate, they can improve patient care and probably save the NHS funds at the same time. Politicians just need to remove any artificial barriers. Diolch yn fawr.

Very often, Governments and politicians talk about growing the economy and creating jobs through investing in industry and construction, but very little is said about growing the economy through public services and healthcare, through the foundational economy, investing in public services and people; paying decent wages for carers, putting money in people's pockets, who live and spend in our communities. Encouraging people to become health professionals helps to fill vacancies. Instead, we keep hearing negativity about what is, for many, a good service, and saying there is a health emergency.

I'm pleased that in north Wales, under Welsh Labour, there is the medical training centre, a new nursing and allied professional training facility at Wrexham University, as well as healthcare training places at Coleg Llandrillo in Rhyl. We need to retain staff and offer decent wages and working hours that are flexible, but we cannot do that without extra funding in line with the growing need and an older population. Now we have a UK Government who believes in investing in public services and the NHS, we are starting to see the difference.

I know there are many people on long waiting lists, but we need to give them hope that they are coming down and may receive a letter with a quicker appointment—like John, who told me his knee appointment had been brought forward by two months. Not only that, but he was given physiotherapy on a Saturday when recovering in hospital. He said it was because of the extra money going into the NHS. A young woman whose orthodontic appointment for next year has been brought forward to December. Chris let me know he had a cataract operation within six weeks, after initially hearing there was a three-year waiting list. It just brings hope to people that there is progress and not to worry too much. Hopefully, a letter will be coming soon.

Investing in prevention with access to grass-roots sports, leisure centres, public transport, green spaces, parks and education programmes is really important. All these have been cut and eroded by 14 years of austerity. And Reform are misleading the public by saying further huge cuts can be made. [Interruption.] I worry for the future of our communities if investment is not continued. 

Thank you. You caught me off guard there. We represent, obviously, similar areas. You cover the same constituents as me. Is this what you tell constituents when they come to you with issues that are similar to the ones that I receive, with long waiting times at Glan Clwyd A&E, for example? I get many constituents getting in touch about that, as I imagine you do. So, what's your response to them, when you're approached about those issues, just out of curiosity? 

I always follow up casework for people who come to me who would like to follow that up. That's what we do, isn't it? I always follow up casework, but I also like to help people and give them hope as well. I really hope that we can move forward with investment in the Royal Alexandra Hospital now there's that capital funding. That will make a difference then to Glan Clwyd A&E, and also the other investment that's happening—I think there's a facility that's just been built in Denbigh as well, which is great to hear.

Following the COVID pandemic, waiting lists were at a seven-year high. The NHS has had to get staff, processes and procedures back into place and working efficiently again, as well as having to deal with a backlog of appointments. I watched a programme shown on ITV Wales on Sunday evening called The Covid Contracts. It was an excellent piece of journalism that revealed the extent of Tory cronyism and the billions wasted on contracts for their mates through the VIP lane. Sixty per cent of personal protective equipment supplied by VIP lane companies was later categorised as not fit for use by the NHS. It was enough to pay the salaries of 20,000 resident doctors. In a scramble to give money to those politically connected to the Conservative Party, PPE was massively over purchased, and by the end of the pandemic, the UK had 300 unused pieces of PPE for every single person in the country. That's over 1 million pallets of PPE—over 1 million pallets of PPE—that had to be destroyed. We’ve got a climate emergency, but also there's the billions of pounds that were wasted. It was actually £8.6 billion-worth—billion, not million—of PPE. It was enough to employ over 200,000 nurses. I go on about austerity nearly every week, but if we had that money to go into the NHS now, it would make such a difference. It's incredible.

Thanks to extra funding from the UK Government for health and public services, this Welsh Labour Government is able to invest £120 million extra into bringing waiting lists down, and surgical hubs, such as the £29.5 million investment in the orthopaedic home in Llandudno, which of course the Tories somehow will try and claim by associating themselves with Labour's success—a new tactic. I saw the photo of Darren Millar and Janet Finch-Saunders in the North Wales Pioneer, where Janet acknowledges:

'All those involved in creating the new hub have worked incredibly hard and I thank every one of them for their commitment to delivering this crucial facility.'

So, I just would like to finish by asking if she would like to repeat those words of thanks in the Chamber to the Cabinet Secretary for all his hard work in delivering the hub. Thank you.

Well, Members, it's very clear that Wales is in the midst of a health emergency—just ask your constituents—albeit that the Labour Government here can't see it. As we've heard already, between May 2021 and July 2025, the overall number of open pathways waiting to start treatment has increased by 30 per cent to just under 800,000, and at the moment there are over 600,000, as we heard also. That's one in five people on a waiting list. That is absolutely shocking.

The First Minister committed to eliminating two-year waits for treatment in both March 2023 and 2024, but has repeatedly failed. The Aneurin Bevan University Health Board in my constituency has seen a 29 per cent increase in two-year waits.

The Welsh health service is precious to us all and should not be the subject of continuing mismanagement, especially by this Labour Government together with its Plaid partners over many years. Successive Labour health Ministers have made pledge after pledge to tackle these waiting lists, but things are not getting better. They are getting worse. Since 2021, when Labour and Plaid Cymru entered into their co-operation agreement, total patient pathways have risen by around a third.

We Conservatives are accused of wanting to sell off the NHS. This just is absolute rubbish. It's not true. Indeed, if you look at the underfunding of dentistry over decades and the reduction in NHS provision, it's Labour who are pushing dentistry services to pursue more private business. We would fund our NHS properly, and we would recognise the importance of it. [Interruption.] Yes, Mabon.

You and your colleagues have mentioned the co-operation agreement a few times. Can you refer specifically to what in the 46 policies was about health?

You were working behind closed doors—. You were working behind closed doors—. 

Peter, would you give way? I'll tell you what was in the co-operation agreement, and what Plaid put above the health of the nation, was more politicians in Cardiff Bay. Not more doctors, not more nurses, more politicians.

And we don't know what you were talking about behind closed doors, but you were working together as a unit. You were working together, and you can't split yourself apart now. [Interruption.] Yes, Jenny. 

Just for the record, it was specifically excluded from the partnership agreement. It was agreed that health was not—[Interruption.]

The people out there don't believe that. [Interruption.]

I'd like to hear the Member's contribution without his colleagues in his party actually sounding out so loud I can't.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. But what is true is that Labour have overseen real-terms cuts to our NHS budgets whilst in office. I have no criticism of our NHS staff—none of us here have. They are brilliant. But they have to work in a health service that is systemically failing, and the Welsh Government must take responsibility for this.

Whilst Labour and Plaid are rightly being challenged for their handling of the health service, I don't think there is anyone in Wales who would want to trust Reform with our NHS. At their recent national conference, they played host to a doctor who suggested that COVID vaccines were linked to cancer diagnoses in the royal family, that the vaccines were likely to cause more harm than the COVID virus itself, and that the World Health Organization had been captured by Bill Gates and must be replaced. And today, we know that Mr Farage has failed to stand up against the latest conspiracy theory that paracetamol is being linked to autism. Wales doesn't need unfounded conspiracy theorists running our health service. It needs proper leadership and only the Conservatives will deliver that. Reform are a party with no substance, no answers, and just empty rhetoric from one man who tells everyone what they want to hear.

The Welsh Conservatives have backed calls for the Welsh Government to declare a health emergency, as we know, a motion that we brought forward here in July but was rejected by Labour. We have supported the eight recommendations from the Royal College of Nursing to tackle corridor care, and have a plethora of policies that would seriously improve health outcomes for the people of Wales, as James has already outlined. Funding must be targeted and spent correctly. There has to be an end to wasteful spending and red tape in our NHS, and I genuinely believe also that a root-and-branch review of our NHS is needed. We can then identify wasteful spending and reprioritise resources to the area of most need. Only the Welsh Conservatives have a plan to fix Wales and to fix our NHS. Unlike the Labour Party, who have overseen over 25 years of decline in our NHS, we would start on day 1, fixing Labour's mess and delivering the health service that our residents deserve.

Dirprwy Lywydd, we've heard enough empty promises from Labour and Plaid, and the shallow conspiratorial rhetoric spouted by Reform. We would deliver real actions through policies with tangible outcomes that would help the people of Wales. For those of us here who want to see a sustainable NHS, I encourage you to support our motion.

Can I start by thanking the Welsh Conservatives for bringing forward this debate today? Not only does it give us all a chance to talk about the most important area of Welsh Government responsibility, it also gives me a chance to set the record straight about Reform and the NHS. For the sake of telling the truth, as this is something the Senedd claims to—and it should—uphold and value, though it seems to only believe that when it suits their own agendas, let me be absolutely clear, as the people of Wales deserve the truth, not misinformation, even if it means that some of you will now have to update your Caerphilly by-election leaflets.

When Reform forms a Government next May, the NHS will remain free at the point of delivery, and free prescriptions will remain just that—free. [Interruption.] Anyone suggesting otherwise is scaremongering. The fact that all parties in this Chamber are pushing this line—

Will you apologise to Darren? 

—knowing full well that Reform policy is not to abolish the NHS, shows how desperate you've all become, and on cue, yes, go. 

Here's a quote from Nigel Farage: 'I do not want the NHS funded through general taxation.' How else would you fund it here in Wales? 

Just because Nigel Farage has a special view on it—[Interruption.]

Please allow the Member to respond to the intervention.

Being interested in how other countries manage their health services, and looking if there are any parts of that that we can take and use in our NHS, is very, very different to committing the NHS to being abolished or privatised, or whatever it is. What is clear, and what is in the quote that you missed, before he says that, is that he's open to hearing what other health services do. What you're missing is that he's always said—and it's abundantly clear, so you can understand, and people can understand out there—that the NHS will always be free at the point of delivery, and that is a very important point. Being open to how things are funded is a completely different kettle of fish. You know that when Reform forms the Government next May, the NHS will remain, just for clarity, free at the point of delivery—

Will you take an intervention?

No, I will carry on now. I've just taken one from your party.

The fact that all parties in this Chamber are pushing this line, knowing full well that Reform policy is not to abolish the NHS, shows how desperate you've all become. Perhaps now I've made this clear, the Cabinet Secretary for health will think twice before making untruthful accusations in the Chamber and instead respond, next time, to serious questions in serious debates. The people of Wales and my own constituents deserve more than that. The health Minister is fully aware that Reform policy is that the NHS will remain unequivocally free at the point of delivery. The real scandal is not Reform's position, it is the state of the NHS, 26 years after all these Labour Governments, backed at every turn by Plaid.

As the Conservative motion lays out for us today, since the Senedd election, over 38,000 people have died whilst waiting for treatment. Accident and emergency waits remain appallingly long, and ambulance response times are still dangerously long. Wales in terms of the NHS is the poor man of the UK. The NHS staff are fantastic, but every statistic shows how badly Labour have mismanaged the NHS here in Wales. The Conservatives point fingers at Cardiff Bay, but the NHS under their tenure had big problems of its own. So, not one of the old parties has a clean record. [Interruption.] The people of Wales are now looking to Reform as the only—[Interruption.]

I'm very grateful to you for you taking the intervention. It's wonderful to have the opportunity to speak to you, the first time we've done so since you decided to defect to Reform. Do you support your party leader and your party being a party that casts aspersions and doubts on the efficacy and safety of paracetamol and that supports COVID conspiracy theories about the efficacy and safety of COVID vaccines? Because I think the public in Wales deserve to know whether that is the case. What is your view?

I think what's important here is that we're discussing the record of the Welsh Government—[Interruption.] I love that you took so much interest in our Reform party conference, and maybe you'd like to come one day, I don't know. But the real scandal here is not—

But none of you are talking to him. Say sorry to him.

Reform is committed, can I just say, to the recruitment and retention of staff. Reform will end the indefinite leave—[Interruption.] Would you like to make an intervention? No.

We would cut wasteful bureaucracy and unnecessary management, putting clinicians back in charge. This alone frees millions to invest in front-line care without extra taxes, ensuring prescriptions remain free. We've heard this Government talk about prevention over and over again, yet they've failed to deliver. Prevention is vital. By catching issues like oral tooth decay or cancers early, as discussed yesterday, preventing obesity and childhood illnesses, and addressing mental health proactively, we will reduce pressure on our hospitals.

Reform would bring back the matron, someone visible and respected and accountable for standards of care. We would also ensure the safety and dignity of patients by ensuring they have sex-based wards and use sex-based language, again, within our NHS—[Interruption.]

No. The Member is already over time, and I'm going to ask her to close.

Reform completely concur with both motions that call for a cancer action plan. We welcome what the Government has said in their motion on this, but Reform would go further and ensure that adequate cancer care is accessible to every single person right across Wales. We welcome the extra funding—

You need to conclude now. I've given you the extra time for the interventions. [Interruption.] No.

Sorry, what did you—? I can't hear above everyone else.

You need to conclude, because I've given you the extra time for the interventions.

Thank you very much. One other thing, the glaring omission from all this, is that our veterans have been overlooked, and we've recognised that women need peer mentors within the NHS, and that has not been addressed, and now there is no funding. For decades, Labour has mismanaged the NHS in Wales, enabled by Plaid. The Conservatives have put good ideas forward today, which, I have to say, read a bit like a Reform leaflet—[Interruption.]—but Reform has made-in-Wales solutions. We will make the NHS something that—

You do need to conclude now, please.

—the people of Wales can be proud of once again. Diolch.

Thank you very much, Deputy Llywydd. It's a pleasure to take part in this debate this afternoon. Hopefully we can all recognise that the Welsh NHS is in crisis and patients across our nation are sadly paying the price with their lives. Since the last Senedd elections in 2021, almost 40,000 people have died in Wales whilst waiting for NHS treatment, as has been quoted many times during this debate so far. That is the human cost of the system falling apart under Labour's management, with the co-operation of Plaid Cymru.

While Ministers focused on constitutional tinkering, more politicians, 20 mph, patients were left languishing on ever-growing waiting lists. Nowhere is this failure felt more acutely than in north Wales, where, in the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, waiting lists have risen by more than 55 per cent since 2021—the steepest rise in the whole of Wales. A&E performance has deteriorated dramatically, with fewer than 56 per cent of patients seen within four hours, among the worst figures in the country. And while England have virtually eliminated two-year waits for treatment, in north Wales, over 5,000 people are still waiting that long.

Perhaps the greatest symbol of broken promises in our health service is the saga of the north Denbighshire community hospital in Rhyl—or the lack of a north Denbighshire community hospital in Rhyl. Over a decade ago, my constituents were promised a facility that would bring together vital health and community services, then things went quiet. Now, after a decade of delay and shortly before an election, new plans have been published. But what my constituents are getting is a drastically scaled and watered-down version of what they were originally promised. [Interruption.] Yes, I would be more than happy to take an intervention.

Do you not agree it's because there is suddenly funding available with a change of UK Government to invest capital funding into it?

Absolutely not, Carolyn, no. Because if that was delivered on time, it would have been at a fraction of the price that it costs now. Building materials, even for one example, have skyrocketed since the pandemic. If that was built and delivered in 2014-15, when it was first promised, then it could have been built for around £22 million, where that figure now, for a drastically watered-down version, is now significantly more costly than what it would have been all that time ago. Denbighshire and the wider area deserve the original plans to be honoured. Anything less will not be sufficient to ease the burden on Glan Clwyd Hospital.

When the First Minister was health Minister, she repeatedly promised to eliminate two-year waits—first by March 2023, and then again by March 2024. Both promises have been broken. Targets have been missed and patients let down. And the longer people wait, the more their conditions deteriorate, leading to more complex and costly treatments. This exemplifies the short-sightedness of the Welsh Government, which has not invested enough in preventative health, leading to Wales becoming one of the least healthy nations in the UK, and has also contributed to patient pathways increasing by a third since 2021.

But, Deputy Llywydd, this crisis is not only about waiting lists, it is about the collapse of emergency care. A group of retired doctors and nurses have written to all north Wales Members warning that Betsi Cadwaladr has the worst A&E corridor waits in the whole of Wales, with nearly half of patients waiting over 24 hours for a bed—something that the Royal College of Nursing rightly says should never happen. Too many are left on trolleys without dignity, without access to proper facilities and with tragically higher chances of dying. The root of this problem is the loss of community beds, cut from one for every 233 people to just one for every 315, with more cuts still to come. Their simple campaign is under the acronym 'BEDS', with 'B' meaning 'bring back community beds', the 'E' meaning 'end corridor tragedies', the 'D' meaning 'decrease in patient mortality', and the 'S' meaning 'senior medics at the front door'. It deserves urgent action.

It's clear too that, after a quarter of a century in power, the Welsh Government are out of ideas. And with Plaid Cymru having acted as their handmaidens in office, they're hardly putting forward a break from the status quo. We heard nothing from Reform UK on health policy, other than toying with the idea of privatisation and conspiracy theories, which this Chamber has already heard. But the Welsh Conservatives have been clear on what we would do, which includes declaring a health emergency on day one, launching the largest recruitment and retention plan the NHS in Wales has ever seen, and fast-tracking surgical hubs and diagnostic centres to clear the backlog. 

There are still meaningful changes that the Welsh Government can deliver on for the Welsh people, and honouring the original plans for the north Denbighshire community hospital in Rhyl would be a good start. Deputy Llywydd, the people of Wales deserve better, and the people of north Wales deserve better. They deserve a Government that puts patients before politics, that delivers on its promises, and that treats health in Wales as the emergency that it is, and what it's become. Thank you very much.

I'll be supporting the motion today. Our health services in Wales have been in crisis for many, many years. As this motion points out today, over 38,000 people have sadly died whilst being on an NHS waiting list. We still have thousands and thousands of people waiting for over two years for treatment in Wales. Years ago, that target was eliminated in England. Virtually nobody is waiting for over two years in England.

If this Government was serious about cutting waiting lists in Wales, they would be making use of the spare capacity that is in England. There is spare capacity in those hospitals at Oswestry, Shrewsbury and Telford. I'm going to read part of a letter that was sent to my constituent just last week from the CEO of the Robert Jones and Agnes Hunt Orthopaedic Hospital in Oswestry. My constituent is waiting for an initial out-patient appointment for her hip issue. This is what the CEO said to my constituent:

'The trust has been advised by Welsh commissioners not to offer a first out-patient appointment to patients until they are approaching the 52-week mark. If you have concerns about this policy, we recommend raising this issue with your local representative or health board for further clarification.'

Well, this constituent has raised it with me, and now I'm raising it in the Senedd with the Cabinet Secretary for health today. My question to the health Secretary is: what is your response to my constituent and others—the many others—who are in the same position? My constituent, in this letter, has been informed that the orthopaedic hospital in Oswestry has the capacity to see her much, much sooner, but they're being instructed not to by Welsh health commissioners, asking that hospital to slow down activity to meet what they can afford.

Will you take an intervention, Russ?

Yes, I will.

I think this is really disappointing, considering we had the First Minister actually in this Chamber here saying that this was not an appropriate way to be dealing with patients in the Powys area, which you and I both represent. And also, I think the Cabinet Secretary made similar comments that Powys Teaching Health Board should not be delaying treatment in England. So, I think it's really a big shame that we've come to this situation, when there is capacity in England, that we can't actually access that for Welsh patients in Powys. 

James Evans is right. The First Minister has repeatedly said that this position of Powys patients waiting for longer than English patients in the same hospital is unacceptable, but that's just words, because the Welsh Government isn't willing to intervene to address the issue. From my perspective, if this constituent lived in England, they would have their out-patient appointment much, much sooner, and treatment much, much sooner. My constituent will have to wait, the likelihood is, 104 weeks until they get their treatment.

Several people have raised with me frustration with the health boards in England, and I tell my constituents, 'It's not their fault. It's the Welsh Government's fault and Welsh commissioners' fault'. In fact, providers in England are just as frustrated. They don't want a two-tier system. They don't want to have two separate waiting lists, a quicker one for English patients and a much longer one for Welsh patients. That's not what they want. In fact, the Shrewsbury and Telford health board haven't agreed to Powys health board's demands, and are still in negotiations. This is where the health Minister should step in in those negotiations in order to address the issue.

In the Welsh Government's amendment today to this debate, the Welsh Government has mentioned there's £120 million to eliminate two-year waits. Well, is this good news? Well, not for Powys patients, because not a penny of that is going to be spent on supporting patients in Powys to be seen in English hospitals any quicker. Not a penny. And if I'm wrong, then the health Secretary can correct me when he comes to close the contribution today.

What does the Welsh Government need to do? I'll tell you: they need to fund Welsh health boards to the point where they are able to buy healthcare capacity, in England, based on English waiting times. And only by doing that will you stop the two-tier system that's happening now between Welsh and English patients, and only doing that will stop the inequality that Powys patients have to face. Powys patients should not be treated as second-class citizens, nor patients across Wales, and that is exactly what is happening.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, Jeremy Miles.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The Conservatives have provided us today with the opportunity, once again, to put on record that this Government is absolutely focused on cutting waiting times. In his opening speech, there was almost nothing that the Conservative health spokesman said that reflected the truth of the experience of the NHS in Wales today. Little grasp on reality, little grip on the challenges, little indeed that most of us could agree with. Though I was struck by the Conservative spokesman telling us that, on day one of his tenure as health secretary in a Conservative Government, there would be a health emergency. I think most of us could probably agree with that.

Dirprwy Lywydd, last year the public told the First Minister that they wanted faster access to care and treatment, and we are doing just that: in local communities, with no appointment, no prescription services to treat sore throats, and urinary tract infection services available at 99 per cent of all community pharmacies; and in hospitals, by cutting waiting times, improving ambulance patient handovers and making sure people are discharged home when they are fit and ready to leave. We've achieved this thanks to the hard work of the tens of thousands of healthcare professionals working in all parts of the NHS. Not one of them was thanked by the Conservative health spokesman in opening this debate, and I would like to thank all of them for their dedication to improving access to and the quality of patient care.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I want to focus my comments today on the progress that we've made to reduce long waits. It's not, as some Members have sought to depict, a picture of doom and gloom. Long waits are falling. The size of the waiting list is falling. We've done this against a backdrop of unrelenting demand for NHS care. New referrals are at their highest levels ever. In the last 12 months we saw more than 1.6 million new referrals, equivalent to nearly half the population being referred to hospital, 22 per cent higher than before the pandemic, and 3.8 million out-patient appointments were provided, more than one each for every single adult and child living in Wales.

We'll see more signs of improvement this year as our ambitious £120 million plan speeds up access even further. We've reduced the number of people waiting more than two years by more than 88 per cent since March 2022. Long waits fell to just over 8,000 in July. This was the second lowest level since April 2021. Cancer performance has been above 60 per cent for six months in a row, the longest period of stability since we started reporting. But of course there is much more to do. This month we'll provide an extra 15,000 out-patient appointments over and above normal NHS activity. There will be an extra 20,000 cataract operations by the end of March. This more than doubles the 17,000 the NHS usually delivers. And there will be tens of thousands more diagnostic tests. All this is part of the £120 million plan. This will ensure that long waits are eliminated and it will help to shrink the overall waiting list. [Interruption.] Yes, certainly.

Thank you for taking the intervention. I would be grateful if you could comment on part of my contribution, which talked about the £120 million. Will any of that £120 million be spent on helping patients in Powys who are waiting for treatment in England?

Russell consistently raises this point in the Chamber, and I have sought to explain on every occasion that Powys health board has had an allocation from the planned care programme that we are making available. But like every other health board, Powys health board has got to run its affairs in accordance with the budget that is set. That is simply a reality, and the Member would not challenge that for any other part of the public services apart from this particular setting. I think that what we all expect is for health boards in Wales to provide every patient in Wales with the standard that every other patient in Wales is entitled to. That is what Powys is funded to deliver, and I am confident that they will indeed do that.

I'm determined, Dirprwy Lywydd, that we create a sustainable NHS. To do this, I expect health boards to improve productivity and efficiency. I have therefore set health boards stretching productivity measures, which I expect them all to achieve. Last week I was able to visit Cardiff and Vale University Health Board and saw first-hand how the health board has taken up the challenge to not only achieve the ophthalmology targets, but in fact to exceed them. It has consolidated its cataract services at Llandough hospital, redesigned pathways, put in additional support for patients and committed to delivering more procedures on each operating list. The target is seven procedures on each list. The Llandough team is managing eight and looking for ways to safely do more. There are many, many other examples of good practice around Wales, which we should highlight and share, and there are also signs that the variety between and within health boards is reducing. Long ophthalmology waits have fallen in all health boards over the last year. Three health boards—Cwm Taf Morgannwg, Swansea Bay and Powys—now have no-one waiting more than two years for ophthalmology.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I want to turn to cancer. In 2021 Wales moved to a single cancer pathway designed by clinicians. Meeting the 75 per cent target is challenging—performance has stabilised; over the last six months, the all-Wales figure has consistently been above 60 per cent—but percentages do not tell the whole story. The number of people starting treatment within 62 days in July was the highest ever. In the last year more than 14,000 people started cancer treatment in 62 days—also the highest ever. Cancer referrals are at record levels, and in July more than 15,700 people got the good news that they did not have cancer—the second highest number ever. We've invested in new diagnostic equipment. We're making new treatments available. We're supporting research, helping people to access clinical trials and we're doing more to detect cancer earlier through screening.

I announced in June that Wales will introduce a life-saving national lung screening programme, targeted at people who are at the greatest risk of developing the disease. Work has now already started and the first people will be invited for screening in 2027. We've expanded our bowel screening programme, so everyone aged 50 to 74 receives an at-home bowel screening test. We have also increased the sensitivity of the test. Public Health Wales is also now looking at how we can introduce self-screening for cervical cancer in Wales, targeted towards those groups least likely to attend appointments.

Dirprwy Lywydd, in May I made a commitment that we would deliver for the people of Wales. Today I have shown that we have made progress against that pledge. Over the last two months, the size of the waiting list has come down in the face of unrelenting demand. Ophthalmology waiting lists and long waits are falling. Fifteen thousand extra out-patient appointments will be provided this month, on top of normal NHS activity. These achievements have been delivered by working with a passionate and focused NHS workforce, to which I'm very grateful. There is more to do and together we will do it.

I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you, James, for once again making the case on behalf of the Welsh Conservatives about just how passionately we feel about our health service, in our individual constituencies. Indeed, I have real concerns about the people in Wales. There are massive failings by the Welsh Labour Government, and when we talk about the co-operation agreement with Plaid, of all the things that should have been on your No. 1 co-operation agreement, it should have been funding increases and everything so that we weren't now having this debate. Go on, Mabon.

I'll try again. Which part don't you understand? We couldn't agree on a health policy, so it wasn't part of the package. We'd love to have had the Government agree with us, they would love for us to agree with them on things, but we didn't. So, it wasn't there. So, can you point out which part of the co-operation agreement referred to health?

I'll tell you which part of the co-operation I wouldn't agree with, and that is the extra 36 politicians. The didgeridoo, dodgy approach to the next voting system. The nation of sanctuary. You support all that. [Interruption.] Yes, Alun, I will.

I travelled to Ukraine with your party leader some months ago, and I pay tribute to the work that he has done with the people of Ukraine. If you want to end the nation of sanctuary, remember that you also end support for every Ukrainian refugee in this country. 

Let's be honest here, at the start of the crisis, I had—and I welcomed—the 60 who came into Llandudno, and they were provided with hotels. I have to tell you, though, I've had a lot of those people come to see me since to say that they don't understand their own visas now, they want to go back. I've had people saying that the conditions that they've lived under haven't been wonderful. But now we've talked about Afghans. Could I ask whether you support the Syrians coming in? So, basically, you support anybody coming into Wales—illegally or otherwise. [Interruption.]

Wait, please. [Interruption.] Alun—Alun. It is not for you to start asking questions of other Members, because you will get the responses you're getting. Can you contribute to your closing, please?

Well, they say one thing and do another. But at the end of the day, planting thousands of trees in Uganda, and your co-operation agreement has been an absolute disaster, not just for the health service but actually for the people in Wales. But when you've got people coming into your office—and I can't believe for a minute it's just me—people who have waited for years for vascular, people with overdue appointments for cancer, people who have waited three years for hip and knee operations—. The list is endless. In fact, I've called an urgent meeting of the health board because of the number of disgusting and shocking cases. And these people are human beings, and they deserve better than what Welsh Labour or Plaid Cymru are actually doing. It was my FOI that went in asking how many people had died in the Betsi board whilst on a treatment waiting list, and I was appalled to read that it's 8,500, and then to find on a follow-up that it's 38,500—nearly 40,000—people who died. Those people are no longer with us while waiting for health treatment. Disgusting. 

Gareth Davies, you pointed out that you represent a similar constituency, of course, to Carolyn Thomas, but somehow she doesn't seem to have those patients, her constituents, visiting her. [Interruption.] No, no, I'm not taking any more interventions. 

I responded to Gareth Davies—[Inaudible.]

No, no—

The Member is not taking an intervention. [Interruption.] The Member is not taking an intervention. [Interruption.] The Member is not taking an intervention. 

Peter Fox spoke well, so did Altaf. We are all saying the same thing. Now, when Laura Anne Jones spoke, I have to say, Laura, being honest with you, I've lost confidence in you as a politician. I've certainly never had any confidence in Reform, so I'd just be careful on that one, about speaking on a health debate, because we know what Mr Farage's view is on that.

Two year-waits have been broken since 2021, as James Evans mentioned. It's not a result at all of the failure of our doctors, our nurses, our cleaners in the health service—all of our front-line workers are absolutely wonderful and we, the Welsh Conservatives, want to support them. These long waiting lists fall at the door of the Welsh Labour Government. In fact, in recent months, they fall at your door, Jeremy. We would expand surgical hubs. We would be putting patients first. We certainly wouldn't even be dreaming or talking about two-year waiting lists.

Now, I've had somebody in my office this morning who provides care for some of these funds, Jeremy, that you are actually giving out in terms of optometry, and even they have said to me they don't know how long their—. It's in three-month blocks. They don't know when the next three-month block is going to be where they can actually help to reduce those waiting lists. I have patients who've had one cataract done—and I'll declare an interest because my in-laws are big opticians; they've been in that industry for years—and I've got people who had one cataract but are waiting months and months with no date given for the second cataract. Do you know that that's actually dangerous, that people can fall? They can become unbalanced—

Janet, you need to conclude now, please. I've given you extra time.

—when they can't see. The thing is, there is no denying that the health service in Wales is broken, and I tell you now: come next 7 May, if the residents and voters put their trust in us, the Welsh Conservatives, we will not be holding a debate like this three months after we've been in power. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Llyr Gruffydd, do you wish to raise a point of order?

I would wish to raise a point of order, because Janet Finch-Saunders, who I used to consider a friend, and I hope that I will do after this, she did mislead the Senedd in suggesting that me and my party were doing everything we could to encourage illegal immigrants into this country. I would ask her to withdraw that statement, because if she's not—

No, no. I talked about the nation of sanctuary. Llyr, if I can—.

We will review—

If she doesn't, then she's clearly swallowed—another one who's swallowed—a Farage fantasy pill, and I don't think that's becoming of herself.

Oh, no, absolutely not.

We will, clearly, review the transcript, and we will make a decision based upon that.

I'm happy to review it, but I believe I didn't say such a thing. We were talking about the nation of sanctuary.

Okay. Right.

Well, no, you—. That's wrong.

That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the belt to be run, I will proceed directly to voting time.

We will vote on item 9, the Welsh Conservatives debate on the NHS, and I call for a vote on the motion without amendment tabled in the name of Paul Davies. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote.

Is the Member voting from a train? 

No, Ken is not on a train, I'm pretty sure of that. Cabinet Secretary, you're not travelling, are you?

No.

Thank you.

No.

Close the vote. [Inaudible.]

[Inaudible.]—amendment 2 will be deselected. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, no abstentions, 24 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed.

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended. 

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions and 25 against. Therefore, the motion as amended is not agreed.

So, just to clarify, the motion as amended did not pass.

We will now move on to the short debate, and I call on Mark Isherwood.

If Members are leaving, please do so quietly. Mark. You're welcome to come to the podium.

I thank my glamorous assistant, and move on. I've agreed for Peter Fox, Mabon ap Gwynfor, Julie Morgan and Andrew R.T. Davies to speak for a minute, time permitting.

The value of hospice care in Wales cannot be understated. Across Wales, the 15 charitable hospices operate with dedication and care. Each year, they support over 20,000 adults and children who are living with terminal illness. Their work is not limited to clinical treatment. It is about helping people to live well, even as they approach the end of life. It is about enabling individuals to make lasting memories with loved ones, to express their wishes and experience peace and dignity in their final days.

Hospices also provide vital support to caregivers and families, helping them navigate the emotional strain, uncertainty and grief that inevitably accompany such journeys. This support is holistic, compassionate and tailored to the needs of each individual and family. Hospices' services are not confined to institutional settings; they allow people who are dying to remain in their own homes, surrounded by familiarity and love. They also offer access to in-patient beds within local communities, ensuring that end-of-life care is available close to home. In doing so, hospices reduce unnecessary hospital admissions, support timely and efficient discharges, and ease the pressure on GPs, district nurses and social care teams—in other words, efficiently saving the NHS money, whilst improving lives.

Their impact is far-reaching, not only improving individual lives, but strengthening the entire healthcare system, and yet, despite the scale and significance of their contribution, hospices continue to rely over-heavily on charitable donations. On average, nearly 70 per cent of the cost of delivering hospice services in Wales is met through fundraising. Collectively, hospices invest approximately £30 million of charitable money into the health and care system in Wales each year.

Hospices offer a holistic model of care, one encompassing symptoms management, emotional support and bereavement care. They address the physical, psychological, social and well-being needs of patients and their families. This integrated approach not only enhances the patient experience, but also ensures a more cost-effective use of NHS resources.

However, the demand for hospice and palliative care is growing rapidly. Over the next 25 years, the need for palliative care is projected to increase by approximately 25 per cent. This rise is driven by an ageing population, the increasing complexity of medical conditions, and deepening health inequalities. Further, despite being promised a share of the £3 million allocated in the Welsh Government budget, neither of Wales's two children's hospices, Tŷ Gobaith and Tŷ Hafan, have received notification of what that allocation will be or when they're likely to receive it. To meet the needs of the growing number of children in Wales with a life-limiting or life-shortening condition, they're calling for a sustainable and ring-fenced funding settlement, beginning at 25 per cent of their care costs in 2025 and rising 1 per cent annually to 30 per cent in 2030—still below the current average for adult hospices in Wales.

By the 2040s, it is estimated that 37,000 people in Wales will require palliative and end-of-life care each year, and, crucially, the demand for care at home or in care homes is expected to rise substantially. Already, hospices are reporting significant increases in patient referrals, sometimes within a single year. There’s been a surge in crisis care, in respite demand and in the support needs of families. The system is under pressure and hospices are doing all they can to respond, yet a quarter of Wales has no access to hospice beds, where the only choice is care at home via overstretched community teams or care in hospital. Sorry, I should say that the choice is care in the home via overstretched community teams, or care in hospital.

Despite welcome one-off support packages from Welsh Government in recent years, hospices continue to face serious sustainability challenges. These are not abstract; they’re real, immediate and deeply concerning. They’re grappling with the financial impact of annual 'Agenda for Change' increases, which will result in a 3.6 per cent rise in staffing costs for 2025-26, and with national insurance increases, with an estimated impact of £1.3 million for the same period. And all of this is compounded by the increased cost of living, which affects staff, patients and the ability to fundraise. As a result, hospices are forecasting deficit budgets for 2025-26. Many are being forced to make difficult decisions, including drawing on reserves to meet shortfalls, reducing in-patient beds, scaling back wider hospice support services, delaying recruitment and the backfilling of vacant positions, and postponing plans to introduce or expand services.

Looking ahead, the vast majority of hospices in Wales say that staffing and cost pressures are highly likely to result in the reduction of certain services. That was laid bare in July when it was announced that four in-patient beds at St David’s Hospice in Holyhead will temporarily close from October 2025. Prior to the public announcement, St David’s contacted me confidentially, as chair of the cross-party group on hospice and palliative care, to share that they were forced to pause operations at their four-bed in-patient hospice in Holyhead because it had become increasingly challenging to continue running all of their services due to rising costs and reduced income. They’d already made significant cost reductions and found efficiencies, yet still reached an unsustainable position. They’ve subsequently told me that they no longer have a service level agreement in place with Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board in Holyhead.

Although the Welsh Government states that it is their intention to have in place a new commissioning framework for hospice services by April of next year, this would be at the eleventh hour of this Senedd term, just weeks ahead of the Welsh general election. And as Marie Curie states, although this should support greater consistency in delivery, we currently have a significant implementation gap. Hospice UK and Hospices Cymru have reiterated the findings of their 2024 survey, which revealed that 14 out of 15 hospices in Wales expected cost-of-living pressures to force reductions in service volume, with over 90 per cent anticipating reduced support to hospitals and care homes and nearly three quarters of those with in-patient units expecting bed closures. As St David’s Hospice told me, in the absence of a commissioning framework and service specification, 'We are now entering an unsustainable position, which puts the whole charity at risk.' Nightingale House Hospice in Wrexham is facing increasing financial pressures. As they state, the current funding model is not sustainable and does not secure future hospice care. They’re also experiencing ongoing challenges with Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board regarding funding for palliative care consultancy, which is adding to their financial challenges, and emphasises the point that hospices are not being recognised for the work they do within specialist palliative life care. Yet Bangor University research last year found that the mean cost for a hospice patient staying for 14 days was £5,708, compared to £6,860 for the cheapest hospital-based option in Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, and that significant public expenditure savings can be achieved through increased utilisation of hospice-based care, where statutory funding, as a proportion of hospice care expenditure across Wales, was just 30 per cent, and St David's Hospice state that they receive just 24 per cent.

Marie Curie highlight the urgent need to strengthen Wales's palliative and end-of-life care system, which they say is under severe strain. As they state, many people die in pain, isolated and without proper support. They recommend that every primary care cluster in Wales should have an advanced practice palliative and end-of-life care nurse; that we must ensure that seven-day community and district nursing services are available in all parts of Wales; that NHS 111 should become a 24/7 single point of access for palliative care advice and information, staffed by clinically trained palliative and end-of-life care professionals; that we need to integrate advanced practice paramedics into palliative care teams across Wales; that community pharmacies must be commissioned to provide a standard set of palliative care medications available around the clock; and that the system for commissioning and prescribing anticipatory medications—the so-called 'just-in-case packs'—must be reviewed, with any gaps in provision identified and addressed. They estimate that the initial investment required to train the advanced practice nurses and paramedics and to staff the 24/7 advice line would be around £1 million, which could save the healthcare services in Wales millions.

Although the Welsh Government funds approximately 32 per cent of adult hospice expenditure, there is significant variation in funding levels. Some receive no Government funding; others receive up to 45 per cent. Overall, hospices in Wales receive less Government funding as a proportion of expenditure than those in England and Scotland still. This disparity must be addressed. Hospices remain committed to raising funds to innovate, to enrich and to expand their services in line with the needs of local communities. At the core of what they provide, the essential clinical care that ensures dignity at the end of life must no longer depend on the uncertainty of charitable fundraising.

Although the Welsh Government's commitment to developing a national commissioning framework and a sustainable funding settlement for hospices is welcome, progress has been slow and the urgency of the situation demands action. Going forward, it is essential that the Welsh Government works urgently to deliver pay parity with the NHS for relevant hospice staff, vital to maintain high-quality palliative care and support services, and to ensure that hospices can continue to recruit and retain skilled professionals; develops a funding model that recognises and values the unique specialist, generalist and wraparound holistic care offered by hospices, which must reflect the true cost of care and the breadth of services provided; applies consistent and sustainable contracting arrangements across Wales to provide stability, clarity and fairness for hospices operating in different regions; and commits to partnership, co-designed and co-delivered with the hospice sector, to address inequalities in access to palliative care, stimulate innovation and meet the growing demand for services ahead.

Hospice care is not a luxury, it is a necessity. Let us ensure that every person in Wales can access the palliative care they need, when they need it, with respect, compassion and the certainty that they, and their families, will be treated with care and dignity in their final days.

As the Member has not left time for all four to be called, I intend to be generous this afternoon, but I will ask all four to stick to their one minute, please. Julie Morgan.

Diolch. I'm really pleased to have the opportunity to speak in this debate, and to thank Mark Isherwood for bringing forward this very important subject and also to pay tribute to his long commitment to the hospice movement over the years. I think that hospices in Wales do an absolutely fantastic job. I, for many years, was the vice-president of City Hospice, which is based in my constituency of Cardiff North. City Hospice is one of the hospices in Wales that provides palliative care at home for people with a wide range of illnesses, such as cancer, dementia, motor neurone disease, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and other life-limiting illness. It also offers essential bereavement support to anyone who has lost a loved one.

I believe that palliative care should remain rooted in the charity sector because of its long history of developing this service, but I do believe that as much support as possible should be given by the Government, and I welcome the commitment from the Government in future developments.

The other important point about some hospices is that they do rely heavily on volunteers, and I am told that, since COVID, the difficulty of getting volunteers is very high. So, I would be interested in knowing what the Cabinet Secretary's view is of that issue.

I have asked Members to keep to their minute.

Thank you very much. I think our hospices are vital in our communities, and I'm pleased we're having this debate here today.

Thank you, Mark, for giving me a minute of your time. As you said, hospices play a vital role in caring for some of our most vulnerable members in society, especially those who are nearing the end of life, and their work is not only compassionate and skilled, but also deeply human. It brings dignity, comfort and support at a time when it's needed most, and I'm sure many of you here have experienced that. I certainly have, with hospices looking after my parents in their latter days, and also my wife's parents.

As we all know, the ongoing discussions around legislation on assisted dying will have a profound impact on how we as a society view our choices at the end of life. With this in mind, the role of hospices has never been more important. Too often, I feel the service they provide is somewhat cinderella, and it shouldn't be, so shining a light on it today is crucial. We must ensure that hospices are properly supported, both financially and structurally, so that they can continue to offer high-quality care to those facing the final stages of life. People deserve options rooted in care, comfort and dignity, not decisions made out of desperation or lack of access to support.

Diolch, Mark. Hospices are proving to be an essential part of our health service in Wales. Imagine where we'd be without the charitable hospices and the work that they do. Hospitals would have to fill that gap at a greater cost. Their importance has come into even sharper focus recently because of the discussion around assisted dying, and, whatever the outcome of that Bill, one thing that's been brought to light more than ever before is the importance of both palliative care and hospices and how underappreciated they are.

You'll recall that I tabled a motion back in January 2024 on charitable hospice funding, calling on the Government to develop a long-term sustainable funding solution, in partnership with the sector, including a new national funding formula, workforce plan and palliative and end-of-life care service specification. The motion was passed, but, 20 months later, I'm not aware that we've seen much movement on this, so I look forward to listening to the Cabinet Secretary and seeing if he can address those points in his response.

Thank you, Mark Isherwood, for giving me a minute. As it's only a minute, I'll put some specific points, if I may, to the Cabinet Secretary, because, in my region, we host Tŷ Hafan, which is a spiritually uplifting and positive experience, dealing with some of the most challenging environments that families could face with life-limiting conditions for their children, and the work they do is second to none.

Mark Isherwood touched on this very point, about the £3 million that the Government allocated to the hospice movement. That money has not been designated yet, so can the Cabinet Secretary, now that we're halfway through the financial year, give an indication to the hospice sector when that money will be coming through to it, in particular to the two children's hospices that we have here in Wales? And secondly, does he agree with the 1 per cent uplift in core funding, going from 25 per cent to 30 per cent of core funding by 2030, given that there'll be a 25 per cent increase in the number of children designated with life-limiting diseases or conditions that potentially could require those services? It is also important to remember that, in the hospice sector, whilst they look after those in end-of-life situations, they also provide the valuable service of bereavement counselling to parents who have lost young children and loved ones, and who are at their most vulnerable point as well.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to reply to the debate—Jeremy Miles

Thank you, Dirpwy Lywydd. May I thank Mark Isherwood for bringing forward this short debate this afternoon? It's an opportunity to consider the huge value of hospices in Wales, but also to highlight the steps that we are taking to safeguard their future. Hospices are places that offer compassion, dignity and hope. Every year, they provide expert care for thousands of people with life-limiting conditions. They also provide crucial support for families and carers facing the most difficult and painful circumstances. They are often considered to be sad places, but they are also places of dignity and comfort, and, very often, they are happy places. They help people to live full and meaningful lives for as long as possible by managing pain, offering counselling to loved ones, and creating conditions where families can share valuable time with each other. Hospices ensure that people are treated with sensitivity and respect even at the end of their lives. They are an integral part of the health and care system in Wales. They help, as we heard, to reduce pressures on the NHS more broadly. They help to avoid unnecessary hospital admissions and provide expert care that isn’t always available in hospitals, and support families in ways that reduce the costs of social care in the longer term.

Investment in hospices is the right thing to do ethically, but it is also a wise move economically. Hospice care in Wales is provided through a partnership model. Hospices receive some of their funding, as we heard, through statutory sources, including health boards, but they are also reliant to a great extent on charitable contributions, community fundraising and the commitment of thousands of volunteers. That generosity is something that we should take pride in. We are all aware of coffee mornings, sponsored walks, local concerts and other community fundraising activities that raise crucial funds for local hospices. These events remind us of the incredible community spirit that exists across Wales. But relying on charitable gifts and fundraising creates a fragile financial situation. It is not sustainable to expect such a crucial part of our healthcare system to rely to such an extent on the ability of communities to fundraise.

That's why the Government has been working closely with hospices, the national programme for palliative and end-of-life care, and local providers to review funding models and strengthen the long-term sustainability of hospice care over the course of this Senedd term. As a result of that work, we've increased direct Government funding for hospices by £5.2 million a year and provided more than £9 million in one-off grant to help with the extra costs hospices are facing and to support the services they provide.

The decision that has been referred to in the debate already by St David's Hospice to temporarily close its site in Holyhead is, of course, worrying for all those who rely on its services, for its staff, and the wider community. We are working closely with the hospice leadership and with Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board to safeguard patient care and to ensure continuity of services during this uncertain period. Our priority is that people continue to receive safe, high-quality palliative care, and we remain committed to supporting the hospice to address the challenges it faces.

I am determined, Dirprwy Lywydd, to ensure that hospices and palliative care are placed on a firm and sustainable footing. We have taken significant steps to strengthen the foundations of care through the development of a national palliative and end-of-life care service specification, which provides a consistent framework for what people should expect from palliative care wherever they live in Wales. This is about equity, quality and fairness, and embedding hospice care as part of an integrated person-centred system.

Secondly, we’re investing in people. The all-Wales palliative and end-of-life care workforce competency framework will support staff and volunteers across health and social care to develop the skills that they need. It ensures consistency of standards, builds confidence and spreads specialist expertise beyond hospice walls so that palliative care is available across all settings—in hospices, care homes or, indeed, as we have heard, in people's own homes. And, as I described earlier in my contribution, we are reforming how hospices are funded and supported by strengthening our commissioning arrangements for hospices in Wales.

For too long, as has been acknowledged already in the debate, hospices have had to rely on uneven local arrangements and on the extraordinary generosity of their communities to sustain services that are, in effect, essential services. While community fundraising will always remain important, it cannot be right that such a critical part of our health system is left vulnerable to financial uncertainty. This work will create a more transparent and consistent basis for funding, linked to population need and agreed outcomes. It will strengthen accountability while also giving hospices the stability they need to plan for the future.

Phase 1 of this work has seen the development of a common set of performance indicators for NHS adult and child hospices across Wales as part of the additional £3 million allocated through this year's budget, which has been referred to already in this debate. And I'll be happy to follow up with those Members who've asked for clarification of the allocation of that funding. Phase 2 will seek to ensure consistency and equity in how hospice services are commissioned through the development and formal adoption of new commissioning arrangements. And Phase 3 will focus on specialist palliative care commissioning. These three developments represent together a step change in how hospice and palliative care will be planned, delivered and supported in Wales. I think they provide the structures that we need in order to respond to the challenges of the future, many of which were laid out by Mark Isherwood and others in this debate and which I would recognise, including an ageing population and, indeed, rising demand for end-of-life care.

None of this would be possible without the extraordinary workforce, staff and, indeed, as Julie Morgan reminded us, volunteers who develop this care day in, day out. Their work is demanding physically, professionally and emotionally, yet they continue to serve with compassion and with humanity. And on behalf of the Welsh Government, and I am sure all of us, I would like to place on record my thanks for everything that they do.

I want to close my contribution, Dirprwy Lywydd, by returning to the human side of this debate. Behind every policy, every framework, every funding model are real people—mothers, fathers, children, partners, friends. The true value of hospices is seen in the relief of suffering, in the dignity afforded to patients and in the comfort given to families. And the true measure of a society is how it treats its most vulnerable, and in Wales we are determined that every person, wherever they live, has access to the care, the dignity and the compassion that they deserve at the end of life.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, and thank you, Mark Isherwood. That brings today's proceedings to a close.