Y Cyfarfod Llawn
Plenary
16/02/2022Cynnwys
Contents
Yn y fersiwn ddwyieithog, mae’r golofn chwith yn cynnwys yr iaith a lefarwyd yn y cyfarfod. Mae’r golofn dde yn cynnwys cyfieithiad o’r areithiau hynny.
In the bilingual version, the left-hand column includes the language used during the meeting. The right-hand column includes a translation of those speeches.
Cyfarfu'r Senedd yn y Siambr a thrwy gynhadledd fideo am 13:30 gyda'r Llywydd (Elin Jones) yn y Gadair.
The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.
Prynhawn da. Croeso, bawb, i'r Cyfarfod Llawn. Cyn i ni ddechrau, dwi angen nodi ychydig o bwyntiau. Cynhelir y cyfarfod hwn ar ffurf hybrid, gyda rhai Aelodau yn Siambr y Senedd ac eraill yn ymuno trwy gyswllt fideo. Bydd yr holl Aelodau sy'n cymryd rhan yn nhrafodion y Senedd, ble bynnag y bônt, yn cael eu trin yn gyfartal. Mae Cyfarfod Llawn a gynhelir drwy gynhadledd fideo, yn unol â Rheolau Sefydlog Senedd Cymru, yn gyfystyr â thrafodion y Senedd at ddibenion Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 2006. Bydd rhai o ddarpariaethau Rheol Sefydlog 34 yn gymwys ar gyfer y cyfarfod heddiw, ac mae'r rheini wedi eu nodi ar eich agenda chi.
Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and these are noted on your agenda.
Cwestiynau i Weinidog yr Economi yw'r eitem gyntaf, ac mae'r cwestiwn cyntaf gan Siân Gwenllian.
The first item is questions to the Minister for Economy, and the first question is from Siân Gwenllian.
1. A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am gynlluniau i ddatblygu busnesau ym Mharc Bryn Cegin, Bangor? OQ57667
1. Will the Minister provide an update on business development plans at Bryn Cegin Park, Bangor? OQ57667
Yes. Over the last 12 months we have received significant interest on our development land at Parc Bryn Cegin. We are currently engaged with the local authority and a number of separate parties who have made or are looking to make offers to buy development plots at Bryn Cegin.
Gwnaf. Dros y 12 mis diwethaf, mae cryn ddiddordeb wedi'i fynegi yn ein tir datblygu ym Mharc Bryn Cegin. Ar hyn o bryd, rydym yn ymgysylltu â’r awdurdod lleol a nifer o bartïon eraill sydd wedi gwneud neu sy’n bwriadu gwneud cynigion i brynu plotiau datblygu ym Mryn Cegin.
Diolch yn fawr iawn am y diweddariad yna. Y gwir plaen ydy nad oes yna'r un swydd wedi’i chreu ym Mharc Bryn Cegin ers i’r safle gael ei brynu a’i addasu gan Lywodraeth Cymru, er gwaetha'r arian sylweddol sydd wedi'i wario arno fo ac er gwaetha'r addewidion. Drws nesaf i'r safle mae stad Maesgeirchen ac o fewn tafliad carreg mae dinas Bangor. Mae mawr angen swyddi parhaol o ansawdd a chyfleon busnes a chyfleon hyfforddiant er mwyn cryfhau’r economi leol er budd y bobl sy’n byw yma. Dwi'n falch o gael y diweddariad, ond pryd fydd y swydd gyntaf yn ymddangos ym Mharc Bryn Cegin yn fy etholaeth i?
Thank you very much for that update. The plain truth is that not a single job has been created at Bryn Cegin Park since the site was purchased and adapted by the Welsh Government, despite the significant funds spent on the park and despite the promises made. Next door to the site is the Maesgeirchen estate and within a stone's throw is the city of Bangor. We desperately need high-quality and permanent jobs and business and training opportunities in order to strengthen the local economy for the benefit of the people living here. I'm pleased to have had that update, but when will the first job be created at Parc Bryn Cegin in my constituency?
Well, I can't give you an exact date on when the actual first job will be on site, because we're still having conversations with those partners and we can't surface all of those in public with named parties, but I've had an update from my officials and I think there is good cause to expect news in the not-too-distant future for jobs to go on that site. And, of course, the Member will be aware that, actually, it isn't just within a stone's throw of the city of Bangor and the Maesgeirchen estate, but also Gwynedd Council has completed a park-and-share, park-and-ride facility next to the estate to make it even easier for people to access work opportunities. So, I hope it won't be too long before I won't just say that this is when I expect jobs to be there, but for jobs to actually be on the site, serving the Member's constituents and businesses who are either relocating there or are expanding their businesses on this particular site.
Wel, ni allaf roi union ddyddiad i chi pan fydd y swydd gyntaf ar y safle, gan ein bod yn dal i drafod gyda'r partneriaid hynny ac ni allwn gael pob un o'r sgyrsiau hynny yn gyhoeddus gyda phartïon a enwir, ond rwyf wedi cael yr wybodaeth ddiweddaraf gan fy swyddogion a chredaf fod rheswm da dros ddisgwyl newyddion yn y dyfodol gweddol agos ynglŷn â swyddi ar y safle hwnnw. Ac wrth gwrs, bydd yr Aelod yn ymwybodol nid yn unig ei fod o fewn tafliad carreg i ddinas Bangor ac ystad Maesgeirchen, ond mae Cyngor Gwynedd hefyd wedi cwblhau cyfleuster parcio a rhannu, parcio a theithio drws nesaf i'r ystad i'w gwneud yn haws byth i bobl gyrraedd cyfleoedd gwaith. Felly, rwy'n gobeithio y gallaf ddweud cyn bo hir nid yn unig pryd rwy’n disgwyl i'r swyddi fod yno, ond pryd fydd y swyddi yno ar y safle, yn gwasanaethu etholwyr yr Aelod a busnesau sydd naill ai’n adleoli yno neu sy'n ehangu eu busnesau ar y safle penodol hwn.
Thanks to the Member for submitting today's question. I'm sure the Minister will agree with me, and perhaps acknowledge, that it is deeply concerning that, after 20 years, the Bryn Cegin Park still lies empty. And I appreciate the comments you've made in terms of future developments, but we've had 20 years of perhaps missed opportunities to see high-quality jobs in Bangor and across north Wales really helping the local economy.
I do note that the last time this issue was raised in the Chamber, the Minister for north Wales stated that Welsh Government officials were working closely with the north Wales economic ambition board as well, so, I'll be interested to hear how those discussions have gone. But, in light of this whole issue, Minister, I wonder what lessons you and the Welsh Government have learnt and what action you'll be taking to ensure that future job opportunities in developments like this are not missed out on again.
Diolch i’r Aelod am gyflwyno'r cwestiwn heddiw. Rwy’n siŵr y bydd y Gweinidog yn cytuno, ac yn cydnabod efallai, fod y ffaith bod Parc Bryn Cegin yn dal i fod yn wag ar ôl 20 mlynedd yn destun pryder mawr. Ac rwy’n derbyn y sylwadau rydych wedi’u gwneud ar ddatblygiadau yn y dyfodol, ond rydym wedi cael 20 mlynedd o gyfleoedd a gollwyd, efallai, i gael swyddi o safon ym Mangor ac ar draws gogledd Cymru i helpu’r economi leol.
Y tro diwethaf i’r mater hwn gael ei godi yn y Siambr, nodaf fod Gweinidog gogledd Cymru wedi dweud bod swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru yn gweithio’n agos gyda bwrdd uchelgais economaidd gogledd Cymru hefyd, felly edrychaf ymlaen at glywed sut yr aeth y trafodaethau hynny. Ond yng ngoleuni'r mater hwn, Weinidog, tybed pa wersi rydych chi yn Llywodraeth Cymru wedi'u dysgu a pha gamau y byddwch yn eu cymryd i sicrhau nad yw cyfleoedd swyddi yn y dyfodol mewn datblygiadau fel hyn yn cael eu colli eto.
Well, there's no suggestion that job opportunities have been missed out on with this site. We would have wanted to see more jobs placed on this site, but there's no evidence that jobs that would have come to north Wales haven't. I'm looking forward to having jobs on the site and to having good-quality jobs, and there are conversations with the north Wales economic ambition board and that's part of the suite of conversations that are already taking place. If you look at what the Welsh Government has done in joint ventures and individually in developing employment sites, we actually have a good record of developing sites that do generate employment opportunities. Parc Bryn Cegin is unusual, in that, after the development phase in 2008, there still aren't jobs on site, but I expect that to be rectified in a way that I expect that Members from all parties will want to celebrate when jobs go onto that site and the broader aspects of the ambition we have for north Wales and its economic future.
Wel, nid oes unrhyw awgrym fod cyfleoedd swyddi wedi'u colli ar y safle. Byddem wedi dymuno gweld mwy o swyddi ar y safle hwn, ond nid oes tystiolaeth nad yw'r swyddi a fyddai wedi dod i ogledd Cymru wedi dod yno. Edrychaf ymlaen at gael swyddi ar y safle a chael swyddi o safon uchel, ac mae sgyrsiau'n mynd rhagddynt gyda bwrdd uchelgais economaidd gogledd Cymru yn rhan o'r gyfres o sgyrsiau sydd eisoes yn mynd rhagddynt. Os edrychwch ar yr hyn y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi'i wneud mewn mentrau ar y cyd ac ar ei phen ei hun i ddatblygu safleoedd cyflogaeth, mae gennym hanes da o ddatblygu safleoedd sy'n creu cyfleoedd cyflogaeth. Mae Parc Bryn Cegin yn anarferol yn yr ystyr, ar ôl y cyfnod datblygu yn 2008, nad oes swyddi ar y safle o hyd, ond rwy’n disgwyl i'r sefyllfa honno gael ei hunioni mewn ffordd y disgwyliaf y bydd Aelodau o bob plaid am ei dathlu pan fydd swyddi'n dod i'r safle a’r agweddau ehangach ar yr uchelgais sydd gennym ar gyfer y gogledd a’i ddyfodol economaidd.
2. Pa asesiad y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi'i wneud o faint o arian a ddaw i Gymru drwy'r gronfa ffyniant gyffredin yn y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf? OQ57664
2. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of how much money will come to Wales through the shared prosperity fund in the next financial year? OQ57664
Based on the Welsh allocation of this year's community renewal fund, which, as you know, is a forerunner to the shared prosperity fund, Wales could receive around £90 million from the shared prosperity fund in the next financial year. This plainly falls well short of the UK Government's repeated promises, including the specific manifesto pledge from 2019, to fully replace EU structural funds, which were worth £375 million annually to Wales.
Yn seiliedig ar ddyraniad Cymru o'r gronfa adfywio cymunedol eleni, sydd fel y gwyddoch, yn rhagflaenydd i’r gronfa ffyniant gyffredin, gallai Cymru dderbyn oddeutu £90 miliwn o’r gronfa ffyniant gyffredin yn y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf. Mae hyn yn amlwg yn llai o lawer nag addewidion mynych Llywodraeth y DU, gan gynnwys yr addewid maniffesto penodol yn 2019, i ddarparu arian yn lle cronfeydd strwythurol yr UE, a oedd yn werth £375 miliwn y flwyddyn i Gymru.
Thank you for that answer, Minister. The fact that there are still question marks over this so close to when we should be finding out about this speaks for itself, doesn't it, in terms of how Westminster is treating this whole process? And we know the total amount that we've been shortchanged already, don't we? We lost £375 million of EU structural funding and in return got £46 million from Westminster, a loss of £329 million in this financial year. And regardless, Minister, of the fact whether Westminster will be conceding how much money we'll be receiving through the shared prosperity fund, the way it's going to be spent is deeply concerning, isn't it, because it's not just about the amount of the funding? The strategic oversight of the Welsh European Funding Office has been replaced by a pork-barrel process, with Westminster selecting specific schemes based on some opaque criteria. Do you agree with me, Minister, that there is no economic justification for spending money in this way, and that the only way to interpret the fact that the Tories have chosen this process is because they want to be able to point to certain schemes that have received funding in order to try to win votes?
Diolch am eich ateb, Weinidog. Mae'r ffaith bod cwestiynau o hyd ynglŷn â hyn a ninnau mor agos at pan ddylem fod yn cael gwybod am hyn yn dweud y cyfan, onid yw, o ran y modd y mae San Steffan yn trin yr holl broses hon? A gwyddom beth yw cyfanswm yr ydym wedi ei golli'n barod, oni wyddom? Rydym wedi colli £375 miliwn o gyllid strwythurol yr UE ac yn ei le, cawsom £46 miliwn gan San Steffan, colled o £329 miliwn yn y flwyddyn ariannol hon. A heb sôn am y cwestiwn, Weinidog, ynglŷn ag a fydd San Steffan yn addef faint o arian y byddwn yn ei gael drwy'r gronfa ffyniant gyffredin, mae'r ffordd y bydd yn cael ei wario yn peri cryn bryder, onid yw, gan fod a wnelo hyn â mwy na'r swm o gyllid yn unig? Mae trosolwg strategol Swyddfa Cyllid Ewropeaidd Cymru wedi’i ddisodli gan broses pot mêl, gyda San Steffan yn dewis cynlluniau penodol yn seiliedig ar feini prawf amwys. A ydych yn cytuno â mi, Weinidog, nad oes unrhyw gyfiawnhad economaidd dros wario arian fel hyn, ac mai’r unig ffordd o ddehongli’r ffaith bod y Torïaid wedi dewis y broses hon yw eu bod yn dymuno gallu pwyntio at rai cynlluniau penodol sydd wedi derbyn arian er mwyn ceisio ennill pleidleisiau?
Well, the Welsh Government has been very, very clear that the UK Government conduct falls far short of its repeated promises in a number of guises, and we're due to lose £1 billion. That's what Wales is going to lose over the next few years—£1 billion. And I don't see how any reasonable person could defend that, regardless of their politics. I don't think anyone came into this place to try to justify £1 billion being shed from Wales. And, of course, we're also seeing regions of England, Scotland, Northern Ireland being treated in the same way, because the UK Government has deliberately chosen to underfund those former EU programmes despite clear pledges and promises that no-one would lose a single penny.
And there is then the concern about how the money is spent. There is no strategic understanding of how that money is going to be spent. The very small sums of money that are not strategically linked in the forerunner schemes don't give much hope for the future, if that were to be the continued path. And it is undeniably the case that having a UK Conservative Member of Parliament means you're more likely to receive money from way the funds have been allocated. And that simply doesn't match a map of need, in either Wales, England, Scotland or any other part of the UK.
So, there's an obvious challenge here. There is, though, a way to make sure that this doesn't happen, and that's to have a proper understanding, with published criteria, for how the money is going to be used—a UK-wide framework, with a proper role for the Welsh Government and our partners. That is the way this should work, and could work. It's still not too late for Michael Gove to change course for whichever particular reason, but as we've seen on free ports in Scotland, it is possible to find agreement if the UK Government are in a position where they think that really does matter. The current course of action will see Wales having less say over less money, and that cannot be a good outcome for any Member of this place.
Wel, mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi dweud yn glir iawn fod ymddygiad Llywodraeth y DU yn bell iawn o'r addewidion a wnaed ganddynt dro ar ôl tro ar sawl ffurf, ac rydym yn mynd i golli £1 biliwn. Dyna faint y bydd Cymru'n ei golli dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd nesaf—£1 biliwn. Ac ni allaf weld sut y gallai unrhyw unigolyn rhesymol amddiffyn hynny, ni waeth beth fo'u gwleidyddiaeth. Ni chredaf fod unrhyw un wedi dod i'r lle hwn i geisio cyfiawnhau Cymru'n colli £1 biliwn. Ac wrth gwrs, rydym hefyd yn gweld rhanbarthau yn Lloegr, yr Alban, Gogledd Iwerddon yn cael eu trin yn yr un modd, gan fod Llywodraeth y DU wedi dewis tanariannu'r hen raglenni UE hynny yn fwriadol er gwaethaf addewidion clir na fyddai unrhyw un yn colli'r un geiniog.
Ac mae pryder wedyn ynglŷn â sut y caiff yr arian ei wario. Nid oes dealltwriaeth strategol o sut y caiff yr arian hwnnw ei wario. Nid yw’r symiau bach iawn o arian nad ydynt wedi’u cysylltu’n strategol yn y cynlluniau rhagflaenol yn rhoi llawer o obaith ar gyfer y dyfodol, pe byddem yn parhau ar y llwybr hwnnw. Ac ni ellir gwadu bod cael Aelod Seneddol Ceidwadol yn y DU yn golygu eich bod yn fwy tebygol o gael arian drwy'r ffordd y mae'r arian wedi'i ddyrannu. Ac nid yw hynny'n cyfateb i fap o angen yng Nghymru, Lloegr, yr Alban nac unrhyw ran arall o'r DU.
Felly, mae her amlwg yma. Serch hynny, mae ffordd o sicrhau nad yw hyn yn digwydd, sef drwy gael dealltwriaeth lawn, gyda meini prawf cyhoeddedig, o sut y caiff yr arian ei ddefnyddio—fframwaith DU gyfan, gyda rôl briodol i Lywodraeth Cymru a'n partneriaid. Dyna sut y dylai hyn weithio, a sut y gallai weithio. Nid yw’n rhy hwyr i Michael Gove newid cyfeiriad am ba bynnag reswm, ond fel rydym wedi’i weld gyda phorthladdoedd rhydd yn yr Alban, mae'n bosibl dod i gytundeb os yw Llywodraeth y DU mewn sefyllfa lle y credant fod hynny'n wirioneddol bwysig. Bydd y llwybr presennol yn golygu y bydd gan Gymru lai o lais ynghylch llai o arian, ac ni all hynny fod yn ganlyniad da i unrhyw Aelod yn y lle hwn.
Minister, I totally agree with you that it is important that Wales does not lose out as a result of the switch from European structural funds to the shared prosperity fund, and I'm sure that the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee will be taking a keen interest in this specific area in due course. Now, yesterday, the First Minister said that there is still time for the UK Government to co-operate with the Welsh Government over the delivery of shared prosperity funding, and we've seen how positive inter-governmental engagement has delivered benefits in the form of city and growth deals, for example. So, can you update us on your latest discussions with the UK Government in relation to the shared prosperity fund, particularly in light of the recent House of Lords select committee on the constitution's report?
Weinidog, cytunaf yn llwyr â chi ei bod yn bwysig nad yw Cymru ar ei cholled o ganlyniad i’r newid o'r cronfeydd strwythurol Ewropeaidd i’r gronfa ffyniant gyffredin, ac rwy’n siŵr y bydd gan Bwyllgor yr Economi, Masnach a Materion Gwledig gryn ddiddordeb yn y mater penodol hwn maes o law. Nawr, ddoe, dywedodd y Prif Weinidog nad yw'n rhy hwyr i Lywodraeth y DU gydweithredu â Llywodraeth Cymru ynghylch darparu cyllid y gronfa ffyniant gyffredin, ac rydym wedi gweld sut y mae ymgysylltu rhynglywodraethol cadarnhaol wedi sicrhau manteision ar ffurf bargeinion dinesig a bargeinion twf, er enghraifft. Felly, a allwch roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i ni am eich trafodaethau diweddaraf gyda Llywodraeth y DU mewn perthynas â’r gronfa ffyniant gyffredin, yn enwedig yng ngoleuni adroddiad diweddar pwyllgor dethol Tŷ’r Arglwyddi ar y cyfansoddiad?
Well, I should congratulate the Member. That is the first time that a Conservative Member in this place has said that it should not be acceptable that Wales loses money from the change from European structural funds. That's a very welcome statement. The trouble is the Chancellor's plan shows that Wales is undeniably going to lose money, moving forward, because the whole UK shared prosperity fund, which the UK Government have been very clear is the successor fund for former EU structural funds, will only be £400 million for the whole of the UK next year. Now, we're never going to get £375 million just for Wales out of that. We have tried on more than one occasion to have direct ministerial conversations about this. Thus far, there has been some engagement between officials, which has improved in the last couple of months, but we're still not at a point where there is a meaningful offer to engage with Welsh Government as decision-making partners in how shared prosperity funds are to be used. The one consistent theme has been that Ministers in Whitehall will make all of the decisions. Now, that can't be right either. There's no way for you and the committee you chair to scrutinise any choice that I make or, indeed, to try to scrutinise a UK Minister for the choices they're making on where moneys will be spent in Wales, and that can't be the right outcome when, in this place, Members of all parties have scrutinised how those funds have been used for 20 years, and I know that the Member, to be fair, Llywydd, has been part of giving advice to the Welsh Government in the past on how to effectively use those moneys to deliver significant change for the benefit of the Welsh economy. I only wish the UK would take on board the advice the Member has given in the past as to how those funds should be properly used, with the direct engagement of this place.
Wel, dylwn longyfarch yr Aelod. Dyna’r tro cyntaf i Aelod Ceidwadol yn y lle hwn ddweud na ddylai fod yn dderbyniol fod Cymru’n colli arian yn sgil y newid o gronfeydd strwythurol Ewropeaidd. Mae hwnnw'n ddatganiad i'w groesawu'n fawr. Y drafferth yw bod cynllun y Canghellor yn dangos y bydd Cymru, heb os, yn colli arian yn y dyfodol, gan na fydd cronfa ffyniant gyffredin y DU gyfan, sef yr arian y mae Llywodraeth y DU wedi dweud yn glir iawn y bydd yn olynu cronfeydd yr UE, ond yn cynnwys £400 miliwn yn unig ar gyfer y DU gyfan y flwyddyn nesaf. Nawr, nid ydym byth yn mynd i gael £375 miliwn ar gyfer Cymru yn unig o'r arian hwnnw. Rydym wedi ceisio cael sgyrsiau gweinidogol uniongyrchol am hyn fwy nag unwaith. Hyd yn hyn, bu rhywfaint o ymgysylltu rhwng swyddogion, ac mae hynny wedi gwella dros yr ychydig fisoedd diwethaf, ond nid ydym mewn sefyllfa o hyd lle cafwyd cynnig ystyrlon i ymgysylltu â Llywodraeth Cymru fel partneriaid i wneud penderfyniadau ar sut i ddefnyddio cyllid y gronfa ffyniant gyffredin. Yr un thema gyson a glywyd oedd mai Gweinidogion yn Whitehall a fydd yn gwneud yr holl benderfyniadau. Nawr, ni all hynny fod yn iawn ychwaith. Nid oes unrhyw ffordd i chi a'r pwyllgor a gadeiriwch graffu ar unrhyw ddewis a wnaf, nac yn wir, i graffu ar un o Weinidogion y DU am y dewisiadau a wnânt ynghylch lle y caiff arian ei wario yng Nghymru, ac ni all hynny fod yn iawn pan fo Aelodau o bob plaid yn y lle hwn wedi craffu ar sut y cafodd y cronfeydd hynny eu defnyddio ers 20 mlynedd, a gwn fod yr Aelod, a bod yn deg, Lywydd, wedi bod yn rhan o'r broses o roi cyngor i Lywodraeth Cymru yn y gorffennol ar sut i ddefnyddio’r arian hwnnw’n effeithiol i sicrhau newid ystyrlon er budd economi Cymru. Hoffwn pe bai'r DU yn ystyried y cyngor y mae’r Aelod wedi’i roi yn y gorffennol ynghylch sut y dylid defnyddio’r cronfeydd hynny’n briodol, gan ymgysylltu’n uniongyrchol â’r lle hwn.
I think Members across the Chamber will welcome the words of the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire this afternoon, in the same way as Members across the Chamber have supported the Welsh Government in making the argument to ensure that Wales doesn't lose out as a consequence of the shared prosperity fund. And the power of our argument, Minister, I'm sure you'll agree with me, is in the power of our example. We're five years into the Tech Valleys programme now, nearly halfway through that programme, which was launched by your predecessor. Can you now, Minister, ensure that we do, in Blaenau Gwent, receive the full amount of the £100 million, which was guaranteed by Ken Skates when he launched that programme, and we will continue to invest to ensure that Blaenau Gwent receives the money it was promised, and that Blaenau Gwent continues to be at the heart of the Welsh Government's vision for regeneration and economic development in the Heads of the Valleys?
Credaf y bydd Aelodau ar draws y Siambr yn croesawu geiriau’r Aelod dros Breseli Sir Benfro y prynhawn yma, yn yr un modd ag y mae Aelodau ar draws y Siambr wedi cefnogi Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei dadl i sicrhau nad yw Cymru ar ei cholled o ganlyniad i’r gronfa ffyniant gyffredin. Ac rwy'n siŵr y byddwch yn cytuno â mi, Weinidog, fod cryfder ein dadl yng nghryfder ein hesiampl. Rydym bellach bum mlynedd i mewn i raglen y Cymoedd Technoleg, bron i hanner ffordd drwy’r rhaglen honno, a lansiwyd gan eich rhagflaenydd. A allwch sicrhau yn awr, Weinidog, ein bod ni, ym Mlaenau Gwent, yn derbyn y swm llawn o £100 miliwn a warantwyd gan Ken Skates pan lansiodd y rhaglen honno, ac y byddwn yn parhau i fuddsoddi i sicrhau bod Blaenau Gwent yn cael yr arian a addawyd iddynt, a bod Blaenau Gwent yn parhau i fod wrth wraidd gweledigaeth Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer adfywio a datblygu economaidd ym Mlaenau’r Cymoedd?
I'd be more than happy to have a direct conversation with the Member about the future of Tech Valleys, about the challenges and the opportunities for the Heads of the Valleys area. Work, I know, is taking place between five local authorities on how to maximise investment and employment opportunities, because it is the area with the most concentrated disadvantage in the whole of Wales, and we won't succeed in our economic mission for the country if we don't generate better employment outcomes for people who live in that part of Wales. So, I'd be more than happy to talk with him about that. It's also been a regular feature in the conversation I've had with the capital region, morphing into the new joint committee, and I'm interested in how the Welsh Government gets alongside those five local authorities and the wider capital region to make sure we do see the better employment outcomes I know the Member seeks. I'd be more than happy to arrange with him to have a follow-up conversation to go through just that.
Rwy'n fwy na pharod i gael sgwrs uniongyrchol gyda’r Aelod am ddyfodol y Cymoedd Technoleg, am yr heriau a’r cyfleoedd i ardaloedd Blaenau’r Cymoedd. Gwn fod gwaith yn mynd rhagddo rhwng pum awdurdod lleol ar sut i sicrhau'r cyfleoedd buddsoddi a chyflogaeth mwyaf posibl, gan mai dyma’r ardal â'r crynodiad uchaf o anfantais yng Nghymru gyfan, ac ni fyddwn yn llwyddo yn ein cenhadaeth economaidd ar gyfer y wlad os na chynhyrchwn ganlyniadau cyflogaeth gwell i bobl sy’n byw yn y rhan honno o Gymru. Felly, rwy'n fwy na pharod i siarad gydag ef am hynny. Mae hefyd wedi codi'n rheolaidd yn y sgwrs rwyf wedi’i chael gyda’r brifddinas-ranbarth, gan drawsffurfio'n gyd-bwyllgor newydd, ac mae gennyf ddiddordeb mewn gweld sut y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn cydweithio â’r pum awdurdod lleol a’r brifddinas-ranbarth ehangach i sicrhau ein bod yn cael y canlyniadau cyflogaeth gwell y gwn fod yr Aelod yn dymuno'u gweld. Rwy'n fwy na pharod i drefnu sgwrs ddilynol gydag ef i drafod hynny.
Cwestiynau nawr gan lefarwyr y pleidiau, i'w hateb i gyd y prynhawn yma gan y Dirprwy Weinidog Celfyddydau a Chwaraeon. Yn gyntaf, felly, llefarydd y Ceidwadwyr, Tom Giffard.
Questions now from party spokespeople, to be answered by the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport this afternoon. First of all, the Conservatives' spokesperson, Tom Giffard.
Diolch, Llywydd. Deputy Minister, looking at your portfolio, would you say that COVID passes have been a success?
Diolch, Lywydd. Ddirprwy Weinidog, o edrych ar eich portffolio, a fyddech yn dweud bod pasys COVID wedi bod yn llwyddiant?
I thank Tom Giffard for that question. I think the COVID passes did what they set out to do. At the time that COVID passes were introduced, of course, we were in the middle of a significant rise in COVID cases. We then saw, on the back of that, the omicron wave, and we had to do something to try and get some confidence back into the sector. So, in the areas where we used COVID passes, they were used for that particular purpose—to keep businesses open and to bring some confidence back to audiences that would be required to show a COVID pass in indoor events. So, from that perspective, I would say that they were a success.
Diolch i Tom Giffard am ei gwestiwn. Credaf fod y pasys COVID wedi gwneud yr hyn y bwriadwyd iddynt ei wneud. Pan gyflwynwyd y pasys COVID, wrth gwrs, roeddem ar ganol cynnydd sylweddol yn nifer yr achosion o COVID. Wedi hynny, cawsom y don omicron, a bu’n rhaid inni wneud rhywbeth i geisio adfer rhywfaint o hyder yn y sector. Felly, yn yr ardaloedd lle y gwnaethom ddefnyddio pasys COVID, cawsant eu defnyddio at y diben penodol hwnnw—cadw busnesau ar agor ac adfer hyder ymhlith y cynulleidfaoedd y byddai'n ofynnol iddynt ddangos pàs COVID mewn digwyddiadau dan do. Felly, yn hynny o beth, byddwn yn dweud eu bod wedi bod yn llwyddiant.
You say they did what you set them up to do. I don't know that I agree, because I think COVID passes have had a minimal impact on protecting public health. The Chief Medical Officer for Wales himself said that the impact is 'probably quite small', and the advice from the technical advisory cell to the Welsh Government was that
'there remains a high degree of uncertainty around the effectiveness of the COVID Pass in reducing infections given the absence of robust evaluation of these interventions.'
And TAC also said that several reviews suggest that COVID passes have the potential for harm as well as benefit. The only evidence that COVID passes work are in countries where uptake of the vaccine is extremely low, which, thanks to the UK-wide vaccination success, is nowhere near the case here in Wales. Not only this, it's had a negative impact on our economy, as my colleague Paul Davies has raised previously. The average cost of implementing COVID passes was around £400 a week. Businesses have not only had to face hefty financial costs of the passes, they've also faced significant reductions in footfall, with some businesses losing up to 50 per cent of revenue. Therefore, Deputy Minister, I'll ask you again: what evidence does the Welsh Government have that COVID passes were a success?
Rydych yn dweud eu bod wedi gwneud yr hyn y bwriadech iddynt ei wneud. Nid wyf yn siŵr a wyf yn cytuno, gan y credaf mai bach iawn oedd effaith pasys COVID ar ddiogelu iechyd y cyhoedd. Dywedodd Prif Swyddog Meddygol Cymru ei hun fod yr effaith 'yn eithaf bach yn ôl pob tebyg', a'r cyngor gan y gell cyngor technegol i Lywodraeth Cymru oedd bod
'lefel uchel o ansicrwydd o hyd ynghylch effeithiolrwydd y Pàs COVID yn lleihau heintiau yn absenoldeb asesiad cadarn o'r ymyriadau hyn.'
A dywedodd y gell cyngor technegol hefyd fod sawl adolygiad yn awgrymu bod perygl i basys COVID greu niwed yn ogystal â budd. Daw'r unig dystiolaeth fod pasys COVID yn gweithio o wledydd lle mae’r nifer sydd wedi cael y brechlyn yn isel iawn, sydd, diolch i lwyddiant brechu ledled y DU, yn wahanol iawn i'r sefyllfa yma yng Nghymru. Nid yn unig hyn, ond mae wedi cael effaith negyddol ar ein heconomi, fel y mae fy nghyd-Aelod, Paul Davies, wedi’i nodi o'r blaen. Roedd cost gyfartalog gweithredu pasys COVID oddeutu £400 yr wythnos. Mae busnesau nid yn unig wedi gorfod ysgwyddo costau ariannol sylweddol y pasys, maent hefyd wedi wynebu lleihad sylweddol yn nifer cwsmeriaid, gyda rhai busnesau'n colli hyd at 50 y cant o'u refeniw. Felly, Ddirprwy Weinidog, gofynnaf i chi unwaith eto: pa dystiolaeth sydd gan Lywodraeth Cymru fod pasys COVID wedi bod yn llwyddiant?
I think you need to look at it in the context of what we were doing. This was one of a suite of measures. It wasn't a stand-alone measure, that we just introduced COVID passes. It went along with, as you say, the vaccination programme. It was part of—. Having a COVID pass was encouraging people to have the vaccination. It also sat alongside other measures, including social distancing and other mitigation measures that were introduced around the same time. So, I repeat what I said in my first answer, in terms of what they were intended to do around bringing confidence into the sectors and giving audience confidence. And there was certainly some significant anecdotal evidence that that was the case, because a number of events venues in particular had seen ticket sales plummeting, as you will well be aware, but people were also saying that they would be more inclined to visit an indoor event and an indoor venue if they were using COVID passes, because that did bring some confidence that, when they were in that venue, other people alongside them they knew were either vaccinated or had had a negative lateral flow test. So, I don't think you see it in isolation. You see it as part of a suite of measures that were operating at that time.
Credaf fod angen ichi ystyried y mater yng nghyd-destun yr hyn yr oeddem yn ei wneud. Roedd hwn yn un o gyfres o fesurau. Nid oedd cyflwyno pasys COVID yn fesur ar ei ben ei hun. Fe'i cyflwynwyd, fel y dywedwch, ochr yn ochr â'r rhaglen frechu. Roedd yn rhan o—. Roedd cael pàs COVID yn annog pobl i gael y brechlyn. Fe'i cyflwynwyd ochr yn ochr â mesurau eraill hefyd, gan gynnwys mesurau cadw pellter cymdeithasol a mesurau lliniaru eraill a gyflwynwyd oddeutu'r un pryd. Felly, rwy'n ailadrodd yr hyn a ddywedais yn fy ateb cyntaf am yr hyn y bwriadwyd iddynt ei wneud, sef ennyn hyder yn y sectorau a rhoi hyder i'r gynulleidfa. Ac yn sicr, cafwyd tystiolaeth anecdotaidd sylweddol fod hynny'n wir, gan fod nifer o leoliadau digwyddiadau yn enwedig wedi gweld cwymp yng ngwerthiant tocynnau, fel y gwyddoch, ond roedd pobl hefyd yn dweud y byddent yn fwy tebygol o fynd i ddigwyddiad dan do ac i leoliad dan do pe byddent yn defnyddio pàs COVID, gan fod hynny wedi ennyn rhywfaint o hyder, pan oeddent yn y lleoliad hwnnw, eu bod yn gwybod bod pobl eraill gyda hwy naill ai wedi cael eu brechu neu wedi cael prawf llif unffordd negyddol. Felly, ni chredaf y gallwch ystyried y peth ar ei ben ei hun. Mae'n rhaid ei ystyried yn rhan o gyfres o fesurau a oedd yn weithredol ar y pryd.
I thank the Deputy Minister for the answer, but I'm not sure I heard any evidence that COVID passes were a success there. And so assuming that there is no evidence that COVID passes have been a success in protecting public health and the only available evidence seems to be they had a hugely negative economic impact on a number of industries—hospitality, cultural and sporting events, tourism industry; all of them were in your portfolio, Deputy Minister—the only way I think we'll get to the bottom of whether COVID passes were a success in Wales or not, or indeed whether the Welsh Government significantly overstepped the mark here and cost businesses a lot of income, is to properly assess whether this was the right decision in a Wales-specific COVID inquiry. But both you and the Welsh Government, however, seem unwilling to hold one and are hiding behind an English COVID inquiry instead.
Of course, there were COVID passes in England, and they were only in place for 44 days there, compared to 130 here, and they targeted far fewer industries too. Given the Night Time Industries Association said there was a 26 per cent drop in trade based on the introduction of those COVID passes, these industries, Deputy Minister, on which so much of our economy here in Wales relies, deserve to know the truth. So, can I ask, have you had a specific assurance that the impact of your COVID passes in Wales will form an integral part of your English COVID inquiry?
Diolch i’r Dirprwy Weinidog am ei hateb, ond ni chredaf imi glywed unrhyw dystiolaeth fod pasys COVID wedi bod yn llwyddiant. Ac felly, gan dybio nad oes tystiolaeth fod pasys COVID wedi llwyddo i ddiogelu iechyd y cyhoedd ac mai’r unig dystiolaeth sydd ar gael, i bob golwg, yw eu bod wedi cael effaith economaidd hynod negyddol ar nifer o ddiwydiannau—lletygarwch, digwyddiadau diwylliannol a chwaraeon, y diwydiant twristiaeth, a phob un ohonynt yn eich portffolio chi, Ddirprwy Weinidog—yr unig ffordd y credaf y gwnawn ni ddarganfod a oedd pasys COVID yn llwyddiant yng Nghymru ai peidio, neu’n wir, a wnaeth Llywodraeth Cymru fynd yn llawer rhy bell yma a chostio llawer o incwm i fusnesau, yw asesu’n briodol ai hwn oedd y penderfyniad cywir mewn ymchwiliad COVID penodol i Gymru. Ond ymddengys eich bod chi a Llywodraeth Cymru, fodd bynnag, yn amharod i gynnal un ac yn cuddio y tu ôl i ymchwiliad COVID Lloegr yn lle hynny.
Wrth gwrs, defnyddiwyd pasys COVID yn Lloegr hefyd, a dim ond am 44 diwrnod y buont yn weithredol yno, o gymharu â 130 yma, ac roeddent yn targedu llai o lawer o ddiwydiannau hefyd. O ystyried bod Cymdeithas Diwydiannau’r Nos wedi dweud y bu gostyngiad o 26 y cant mewn masnach yn sgil cyflwyno’r pasys COVID hynny, mae’r diwydiannau hyn, Ddirprwy Weinidog, y mae cymaint o’n heconomi yma yng Nghymru yn dibynnu arnynt, yn haeddu gwybod y gwir. Felly, a gaf fi ofyn, a ydych wedi cael sicrwydd penodol y bydd effaith eich pasys COVID yng Nghymru yn rhan ganolog o'ch ymchwiliad COVID ar gyfer Lloegr?
The first thing I would say is this is very interesting, isn't it, to hear this from the unionist party that is now talking about an English inquiry? This is not an English inquiry, this is a UK inquiry of which Wales will be part, and there will be a very specific Welsh element to that inquiry that the First Minister has talked about in this Chamber many times, and has been very specific in discussions with the UK Government that that specific Welsh aspect of the inquiry is vitally important to explore and to examine and to investigate all of the things that you've already highlighted.
I've met with some of the bereaved families in my constituency, and I know how strongly they feel about this, and I know that we have—. And I had every sympathy with their views. Anybody who has lost a relative or a friend or a loved one of any description through this pandemic could not but feel empathy and sympathy with those people. But a Wales-specific inquiry, in our view, is not the answer to that question. The UK-wide inquiry, with the terms of reference that will be agreed with us and will be consulted on more widely, will allow all of those families and all of the issues that you have raised to be fully explored, and explored in Wales, because there will be inquiry hearings located in Wales as well for those specific elements of the inquiry.
Y peth cyntaf y byddwn yn ei ddweud yw bod hyn yn ddiddorol iawn, onid yw, clywed hyn gan y blaid unoliaethol sydd bellach yn sôn am ymchwiliad Lloegr? Nid ymchwiliad Lloegr yw hwn, ymchwiliad y DU yw hwn, ymchwiliad y bydd Cymru’n rhan ohono, a bydd elfen Gymreig benodol iawn i’r ymchwiliad hwnnw y mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi sôn amdani sawl gwaith yn y Siambr hon, ac wedi dweud yn benodol iawn mewn trafodaethau â Llywodraeth y DU fod yr agwedd Gymreig benodol honno ar yr ymchwiliad yn hanfodol bwysig er mwyn archwilio ac ymchwilio i’r holl bethau rydych eisoes wedi tynnu sylw atynt.
Rwyf wedi cyfarfod â rhai o’r teuluoedd mewn profedigaeth yn fy etholaeth, a gwn pa mor gryf y maent yn teimlo ynglŷn â hyn, a gwn ein bod wedi—. Ac roedd gennyf bob cydymdeimlad â'u safbwyntiau. Ni allai unrhyw un sydd wedi colli perthynas neu ffrind neu rywun annwyl o unrhyw fath drwy'r pandemig hwn beidio â theimlo empathi a chydymdeimlad â'r bobl hynny. Ond nid ymchwiliad penodol i Gymru, yn ein barn ni, yw’r ateb i’r cwestiwn hwnnw. Bydd yr ymchwiliad DU gyfan, gyda’r cylch gorchwyl y byddwn yn cytuno arno ac a fydd yn destun ymgynghoriad ehangach, yn caniatáu i'r holl deuluoedd hynny a’r holl faterion rydych wedi’u codi gael eu harchwilio’n llawn, a’u harchwilio yng Nghymru, gan y bydd gwrandawiadau'r ymchwiliad yn mynd rhagddynt yng Nghymru hefyd ar gyfer yr elfennau penodol hynny o'r ymchwiliad.
Llefarydd Plaid Cymru, Heledd Fychan.
Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.
Diolch, Llywydd. Dirprwy Weinidog, fe fyddwch yn ymwybodol, dwi'n siŵr—. Sori.
Thank you, Llywydd. Deputy Minister, you'll be aware, I'm sure—. Sorry.
I'll start again; I'll wait for you.
Fe ddechreuaf eto, ac fe arhosaf amdanoch.
You got fooled by my little sentence in Welsh this morning, didn't you?
Cawsoch eich drysu gan fy mrawddeg fach yn y Gymraeg y bore yma, oni chawsoch?
I did, I thought you were fluent. [Laughter.]
Do, roeddwn yn meddwl eich bod yn rhugl. [Chwerthin.]
Okay. Sorry.
Iawn. Mae'n ddrwg gennyf.
Ddirprwy Weinidog, fe fyddwch yn ymwybodol, dwi'n siŵr, fod Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig wedi cyhoeddi, fel rhan o'r cyhoeddiad ynglŷn â'r ffi drwydded, eu bod yn cau'r gronfa cynnwys cynulleidfaoedd ifanc, sef y young audiences content fund. Mae 5 y cant o'r gronfa wedi ei thargedu ar gyfer creu cynnwys mewn ieithoedd brodorol, gan gynnwys y Gymraeg, ac wedi cefnogi nifer o gynyrchiadau o safon i blant yng Nghymru, gan gynnwys cyfres newydd fydd yn cael ei darlledu cyn hir, Bex, fydd â ffocws ar iechyd meddwl.
Gwn eich bod chi, Ddirprwy Weinidog, yn pryderu fel finnau am effaith y toriadau i'r BBC ar ddarpariaeth yn y Gymraeg a'r Saesneg yma yng Nghymru. Bydd torri'r gronfa hon hefyd yn cael effaith niweidiol pellach. Ac o ystyried pwysigrwydd darlledu o ran cyrraedd y nod o filiwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg erbyn 2050, oes gan Lywodraeth Cymru unrhyw gynlluniau i leihau effaith y golled hon mewn cyllid a buddsoddiad mewn darlledu yn y Gymraeg, ac yn benodol o ran darpariaeth i blant a phobl ifanc?
Deputy Minister, you will be aware, I'm sure, that the United Kingdom Government has said, as part of the announcement regarding the licence fee, that it is closing the young audiences content fund. Five per cent of the fund has been targeted at creating content in indigenous languages, including Welsh, and it's supported many high-quality productions for children in Wales, including a new series to be broadcast soon called Bex, which will focus on mental health.
I know that you, Deputy Minister, are as concerned as I am about the impact of cuts to the BBC on provision in Welsh and English here in Wales. Cutting this fund will have an additional detrimental impact. Bearing in mind the importance of broadcasting in order to reach the goal of a million Welsh speakers by 2050, does the Welsh Government have any plans to mitigate the impact of this loss of funding and investment in Welsh-medium broadcasting, specifically with regard to provision for children and young people?
I have to say I absolutely share the Member's concerns about the current position with the licence fee. I've met both with BBC Cymru Wales and with S4C and discussed the fee settlement, and my concern—I think when you raised this question at the time—then was the direct impact that this would have on Welsh language programming. We know that the BBC provides a lot of input for S4C as well, and although S4C's settlement was slightly more generous than the BBC's, the overall impact on Welsh programming and production I don't think can be underestimated. And I have written to the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport to highlight the Welsh Government's concerns regarding the settlement and the review of the BBC's funding model. And that letter reinforces the need for the UK to work with devolved administrations as part of any decisions on the future funding framework.
So, I think we need to continue those conversations with the BBC and S4C to see what the real impact of that is going to be, but I would absolutely give you my commitment that, from the Welsh Government's point of view, we are still committed to meeting those objectives of a million Welsh speakers by 2050 and we will do whatever we can to ensure that that happens, whether that is with the support of the BBC, S4C and any other media outlets.
Mae'n rhaid imi ddweud fy mod yn rhannu pryderon yr Aelod yn llwyr ynghylch y sefyllfa bresennol gyda ffi'r drwydded. Rwyf wedi cyfarfod â BBC Cymru Wales ac S4C ac wedi trafod setliad y ffi, a fy mhryder bryd hynny—pan godoch chi'r cwestiwn hwn ar y pryd, rwy'n credu—oedd yr effaith uniongyrchol y byddai hyn yn ei chael ar raglenni Cymraeg. Gwyddom fod y BBC yn darparu llawer o fewnbwn ar gyfer S4C hefyd, ac er bod setliad S4C ychydig yn fwy hael nag un y BBC, ni chredaf y gellir bychanu'r effaith gyffredinol ar raglenni a chynyrchiadau Cymreig. Ac rwyf wedi ysgrifennu at yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Dechnoleg Ddigidol, Diwylliant, y Cyfryngau a Chwaraeon yn nodi pryderon Llywodraeth Cymru ynghylch y setliad a’r adolygiad o fodel ariannu’r BBC. Ac mae’r llythyr hwnnw’n atgyfnerthu’r angen i’r DU weithio gyda gweinyddiaethau datganoledig fel rhan o unrhyw benderfyniadau ar y fframwaith ariannu yn y dyfodol.
Felly, credaf fod angen inni barhau â’r sgyrsiau hynny gyda’r BBC ac S4C i weld beth fydd effaith hynny mewn gwirionedd, ond gallaf roi fy ymrwymiad llwyr ein bod ni, o safbwynt Llywodraeth Cymru, yn dal yn ymrwymedig i gyflawni’r amcan o filiwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg erbyn 2050 a byddwn yn gwneud popeth yn ein gallu i sicrhau bod hynny’n digwydd, boed hynny gyda chefnogaeth y BBC, S4C ac unrhyw gwmnïau cyfryngol eraill.
Diolch, Ddirprwy Weinidog. In the words of Raymond Williams, culture is ordinary and I know, Deputy Minister, that you and I share a common belief that there should be equity of access to cultural participation. Whilst we have seen some brilliant and innovative digital cultural projects emerge as a result of the pandemic, research has shown that the shift to digital cultural experiences over the pandemic period failed to diversify cultural audiences, largely only engaging those already engaged in cultural activities. Further, women and ethnic minorities saw larger reductions in hours in terms of participation during the pandemic compared to their white and male counterparts.
Whilst digital innovation undoubtedly has a role to play in making a positive difference, this only works when embedded in a long-term strategy of audience and school engagement. What steps are being taken by Welsh Government to determine what lessons were learnt about widening engagement through the digital cultural activities they funded during the pandemic, and how do you plan to ensure that more is done to ensure equity of opportunity to participation in culture?
Diolch, Ddirprwy Weinidog. Yng ngeiriau Raymond Williams, mae diwylliant yn gyffredin a gwn eich bod chi a minnau, Ddirprwy Weinidog, yn rhannu’r gred gyffredin y dylid cael mynediad teg at gyfranogiad diwylliannol. Er ein bod wedi gweld rhai prosiectau diwylliannol digidol gwych ac arloesol yn dod i’r amlwg o ganlyniad i’r pandemig, mae ymchwil wedi dangos bod y newid i brofiadau diwylliannol digidol dros gyfnod y pandemig wedi methu sicrhau cynulleidfaoedd diwylliannol mwy amrywiol, gan ymgysylltu’n bennaf â’r rheini a oedd eisoes yn ymwneud â gweithgareddau diwylliannol. Yn ychwanegol at hyn, bu gostyngiad mwy yn nifer yr oriau o gyfranogiad gan fenywod a lleiafrifoedd ethnig yn ystod y pandemig o gymharu â dynion gwyn.
Er bod gan arloesi digidol rôl i’w chwarae, heb os, wrth wneud gwahaniaeth cadarnhaol, ni fydd hyn ond yn gweithio pan fydd wedi’i ymgorffori mewn strategaeth hirdymor o ymgysylltu â chynulleidfaoedd ac ysgolion. Pa gamau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu cymryd i benderfynu pa wersi a ddysgwyd ynghylch ehangu ymgysylltiad drwy’r gweithgareddau diwylliannol digidol a ariannwyd ganddynt yn ystod y pandemig, a sut y bwriadwch sicrhau bod mwy'n cael ei wneud i sicrhau cyfleoedd cyfartal i gymryd rhan mewn diwylliant?
Okay. Well, thank you for that question. You will have seen that, within the culture division, we have allocated an additional £600,000 in the budget specifically to invest in this area of equality of access, whether it is through digital means or any other means, and we're looking to create innovative programmes of training and support for local museums, for instance, to develop their digital programmes and to develop the way in which their exhibitions and all of their artefacts are displayed and represented and so on.
We've done a huge amount of work already under the race equality action plan to try to deliver the race equality action plan with a number of stakeholder groups in the communities. We've taken the first but crucial steps in reconsidering the interpretations of collections of black, Asian and minority ethnic communities, and sessions have been held throughout November and are continuing through January, with excellent feedback on a number of the programmes that we are seeking to get participation in. We've got other projects that we're working on with Race Council Cymru, the Archives and Records Council Wales, Cadw and our sponsored cultural bodies—all of that work is being progressed. And officials are continuing to work with colleagues in equalities, and engaging with sector stakeholders, to develop our final goals, following the consultation of the draft equality action plan. And I'm actually meeting with the Minister for Social Justice this afternoon to update her on the work that we're doing across the portfolio in this particular area.
Iawn. Wel, diolch am eich cwestiwn. Byddwch wedi gweld ein bod, yn yr is-adran ddiwylliant, wedi dyrannu £600,000 ychwanegol yn y gyllideb yn benodol er mwyn buddsoddi ym maes mynediad cyfartal, boed hynny drwy ddulliau digidol neu unrhyw ddulliau eraill, ac rydym yn bwriadu creu rhaglenni arloesol o hyfforddiant a chymorth i amgueddfeydd lleol, er enghraifft, ddatblygu eu rhaglenni digidol a datblygu’r ffordd y caiff eu harddangosfeydd a’u holl arteffactau eu harddangos a’u cynrychioli ac ati.
Rydym wedi gwneud llawer iawn o waith eisoes o dan y cynllun gweithredu cydraddoldeb hiliol i geisio cyflawni'r cynllun gweithredu cydraddoldeb hiliol gyda nifer o grwpiau rhanddeiliaid yn y cymunedau. Rydym wedi cymryd y camau cyntaf ond hollbwysig wrth ailystyried y dehongliadau o gasgliadau cymunedau du, Asiaidd ac ethnig leiafrifol, a chynhaliwyd sesiynau drwy gydol mis Tachwedd ac maent yn parhau drwy fis Ionawr, gydag adborth ardderchog ar nifer o’r rhaglenni rydym yn ceisio sicrhau cyfranogiad ynddynt. Mae gennym brosiectau eraill yr ydym yn gweithio arnynt gyda Race Council Cymru, Cyngor Archifau a Chofnodion Cymru, Cadw a'r cyrff diwylliannol a noddir gennym—mae'r holl waith hwnnw'n mynd rhagddo. Ac mae swyddogion yn parhau i weithio gyda chydweithwyr ym maes cydraddoldeb, ac yn ymgysylltu â rhanddeiliaid y sector, i ddatblygu ein nodau terfynol, yn dilyn yr ymgynghoriad ar y drafft o'r cynllun gweithredu cydraddoldeb. Ac mewn gwirionedd, rwy'n cyfarfod â'r Gweinidog Cyfiawnder Cymdeithasol y prynhawn yma i roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf iddi am y gwaith a wnawn ar draws y portffolio yn y maes penodol hwn.
3. Beth mae'r Gweinidog yn ei wneud i sicrhau fod polisi Llywodraeth Cymru ar yr economi yn cynnwys strategaeth i daclo'r argyfwng costau byw? OQ57644
3. What steps is the Minister taking to ensure that the Welsh Government's economic policy includes a strategy to tackle the cost-of-living crisis? OQ57644
Our economic policies span all ministerial responsibilities, including those related to energy, housing and social justice. I continue to work with Cabinet colleagues to make sure that every pound available goes out to deliver for those who are at the sharpest end facing the Conservative cost-of-living crisis.
Mae ein polisïau economaidd yn cwmpasu'r holl gyfrifoldebau gweinidogol, gan gynnwys y rheini sy’n ymwneud ag ynni, tai a chyfiawnder cymdeithasol. Rwy’n parhau i weithio gyda chyd-Aelodau o'r Cabinet i sicrhau bod pob punt sydd ar gael yn darparu ar gyfer y rheini sy'n wynebu effeithiau gwaethaf argyfwng costau byw'r Ceidwadwyr.
Diolch, Weinidog. More than three in 10 households with a net income of less than £40,000 have seen their income drop since May 2021, and for households with a net income of more than £40,000, more than one in five have seen their incomes increase. Wage growth stagnated in October, fell in November, and is unlikely to start growing again until the final quarter of this year, disproportionately affecting those on low income. By the end of 2024, real wages are set to be £740 a year lower than they would have been, had pre-pandemic pay growth continued. This is clearly a crisis that is worsening an already deep economic disparity. Figures revealed just today show that we are experiencing record levels of inflation, which are outstripping wages while pushing living costs up higher. The scale of the problem means it's more important than ever that Wales's economic strategy is primarily focused on tackling economic inequality. So, what discussions has the Minister had with the social justice Minister and other colleagues in Government on this, and what further economic powers does he think should be devolved to Wales, so that we can properly get to grips with this crisis and alleviate its negative effects on our society? Diolch.
Diolch, Weinidog. Mae incwm mwy na thri o bob 10 aelwyd ag incwm net o lai na £40,000 wedi gostwng ers mis Mai 2021, ac ar gyfer aelwydydd ag incwm net o fwy na £40,000, mae incwm mwy nag un o bob pump wedi cynyddu. Arhosodd twf cyflogau yn ei unfan ym mis Hydref, gostyngodd ym mis Tachwedd, ac mae'n annhebygol o ddechrau tyfu eto tan chwarter olaf eleni, gan effeithio'n anghymesur ar bobl ar incwm isel. Erbyn diwedd 2024, disgwylir y bydd cyflogau real £740 y flwyddyn yn is nag y byddent wedi bod pe bai twf cyflogau wedi parhau ar yr un lefel â chyn y pandemig. Mae hwn yn amlwg yn argyfwng sy'n gwaethygu gwahaniaeth economaidd a oedd eisoes yn sylweddol. Mae ffigurau a gyhoeddwyd heddiw yn dangos ein bod yn wynebu'r lefelau uchaf erioed o chwyddiant, sy’n fwy na chyflogau ac sy'n gwthio costau byw yn uwch byth. Mae maint y broblem yn golygu ei bod yn bwysicach nag erioed fod strategaeth economaidd Cymru yn canolbwyntio'n bennaf ar fynd i'r afael ag anghydraddoldeb economaidd. Felly, pa drafodaethau y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’u cael gyda’r Gweinidog cyfiawnder cymdeithasol a chyd-Aelodau eraill yn y Llywodraeth ynglŷn â hyn, a pha bwerau economaidd pellach y mae’n credu y dylid eu datganoli i Gymru, fel y gallwn fynd i’r afael yn iawn â’r argyfwng hwn a lliniaru ei effeithiau negyddol ar ein cymdeithas? Diolch.
Thank you for the points and the series of questions. I think it's interesting, the point about wage growth, because even at the start of this week, there was a suggestion that we would see significant wage growth figures coming through, and yet the figures actually showed that wages had not kept pace with inflation. And I think the previous comments of the Governor of the Bank of England about needing to suppress wages to try to keep control of inflation—there were commentators and economists on both the left and the right, as it were, who both thought those were rather odd remarks and not borne out by what is actually driving inflation at present: it isn't wages.
The Resolution Foundation said we can expect a cost-of-living catastrophe in April without further action. Now, that's part of the reason why Rebecca Evans unveiled a £330 million package for Wales yesterday. It goes beyond the UK Government package announced for England, but, of course, that has been delivered here in Wales without any extra funding coming to Wales.
I think, on your point about powers, actually it's the resource that we need to be able to address the cost-of-living crisis, and it's also the willingness of the UK Government to do something about it. I just think that, for businesses as well as for households, thinking that the current fix that's been announced to date is going to get us through till the end of April I think is fanciful. I think many families and businesses will find the increase in costs that are coming very hard to deal with. And for many of my constituents and many people across Wales, that means even more people choosing between heating and eating. It means even more parents going hungry to try to make sure their children are fed. So, there are changes we want to see: we want to see the cut to universal credit restored; we want to see further action. And, yes, we do support the cause for a windfall levy on energy companies who are making eye-watering sums of money. When you have Shell and BP talking about their businesses as cash machines, and they can't spend the money quick enough, I don't think that this is something where a UK Government could simply say that it will refuse to act and leave people to their fate. I certainly hope that the Chancellor is listening, because I've certainly had those conversations with the Minister for Social Justice, the Minister for Climate Change, and, indeed, the finance Minister and others, about what we could and should do here in Wales with the resources available to us.
Diolch am y pwyntiau a’r gyfres o gwestiynau. Credaf fod y pwynt am dwf cyflogau yn ddiddorol, oherwydd hyd yn oed ar ddechrau’r wythnos hon, roedd awgrym y byddem yn gweld ffigurau twf cyflogau sylweddol, ond dangosodd y ffigurau nad oedd cyflogau wedi codi gyfuwch â chwyddiant. A chredaf fod sylwadau blaenorol Llywodraethwr Banc Lloegr ynglŷn â’r angen i atal cyflogau i geisio cadw rheolaeth ar chwyddiant—roedd sylwebwyr ac economegwyr ar y chwith a’r dde, fel petai, yn credu eu bod yn sylwadau braidd yn rhyfedd, ac ni chânt eu cadarnhau gan yr hyn sydd mewn gwirionedd yn achosi chwyddiant ar hyn o bryd: nid cyflogau sy'n gwneud hynny.
Dywedodd Sefydliad Resolution y gallwn ddisgwyl trychineb costau byw ym mis Ebrill oni roddir camau pellach ar waith. Nawr, dyna ran o'r rheswm pam y cyhoeddodd Rebecca Evans becyn gwerth £330 miliwn i Gymru ddoe. Mae’n mynd y tu hwnt i becyn Llywodraeth y DU a gyhoeddwyd ar gyfer Lloegr, ond wrth gwrs, mae hwnnw wedi’i gyflwyno yma yng Nghymru heb unrhyw arian ychwanegol yn dod i Gymru.
Ar eich pwynt ynglŷn â phwerau, credaf mai adnoddau sydd eu hangen arnom mewn gwirionedd i allu mynd i'r afael â'r argyfwng costau byw, a pharodrwydd Llywodraeth y DU hefyd i wneud rhywbeth yn ei gylch. I fusnesau yn ogystal ag i aelwydydd, credaf fod meddwl bod y datrysiad presennol a gyhoeddwyd hyd yma yn mynd i'n cynnal hyd at ddiwedd mis Ebrill braidd yn obeithiol. Credaf y bydd llawer o deuluoedd a busnesau'n ei chael hi'n anodd iawn ymdopi â'r cynnydd sydd i ddod yn y costau. Ac i lawer o fy etholwyr a llawer o bobl ledled Cymru, mae hynny’n golygu mwy byth o bobl yn gorfod dewis rhwng gwresogi a bwyta. Mae'n golygu mwy byth o rieni'n mynd yn llwglyd er mwyn ceisio sicrhau bod eu plant yn cael eu bwydo. Felly, mae yna newidiadau rydym am eu gweld: rydym am weld y toriad i gredyd cynhwysol yn cael ei adfer, rydym am weld camau gweithredu pellach. Ac rydym yn cefnogi'r achos dros godi ardoll ffawdelw ar gwmnïau ynni sy'n gwneud symiau syfrdanol o arian. Pan fo Shell a BP yn sôn am eu busnesau fel peiriannau gwneud arian, ac yn dweud na allant wario’r arian yn ddigon cyflym, ni chredaf fod hyn yn rhywbeth lle y gall Llywodraeth y DU ddweud y byddant yn gwrthod gweithredu a gadael pobl i'w tynged. Rwy’n sicr yn gobeithio bod y Canghellor yn gwrando, gan fy mod yn sicr wedi cael y sgyrsiau hynny gyda’r Gweinidog Cyfiawnder Cymdeithasol, y Gweinidog Newid Hinsawdd, ac yn wir, y Gweinidog cyllid ac eraill, am yr hyn y gallem ac y dylem ei wneud yma yng Nghymru gyda’r adnoddau sydd ar gael i ni.
Minister, a vital component of any strategy to help tackle the cost of living is to ensure the Welsh Government's economic policy supports businesses, allowing them to keep people in jobs. The latest tracker survey of small and medium enterprises in Wales, conducted by the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants, shows that over one third of Welsh SMEs are hopeful about growth ambitions in the next six months. However, Minister, 81 per cent of Welsh SMEs are unaware of the finance options available to them. So, Minister, what action will you be taking to ensure SMEs in Wales are aware of the support available to provide them with the resources that they need to overcome the current pressure on their cash flows? Thank you.
Weinidog, elfen hanfodol o unrhyw strategaeth i helpu i fynd i’r afael â chostau byw yw sicrhau bod polisi economaidd Llywodraeth Cymru yn cefnogi busnesau, gan ganiatáu iddynt gadw pobl mewn swyddi. Mae’r arolwg tracio diweddaraf o fentrau bach a chanolig yng Nghymru, a gynhaliwyd gan Gymdeithas y Cyfrifwyr Ardystiedig Siartredig, yn dangos bod dros draean o fusnesau bach a chanolig Cymru yn obeithiol ynghylch uchelgeisiau twf dros y chwe mis nesaf. Fodd bynnag, Weinidog, nid yw 81 y cant o fusnesau bach a chanolig Cymru yn ymwybodol o’r opsiynau cyllid sydd ar gael iddynt. Felly, Weinidog, pa gamau y byddwch yn eu cymryd i sicrhau bod busnesau bach a chanolig yng Nghymru yn ymwybodol o’r cymorth sydd ar gael i ddarparu’r adnoddau sydd eu hangen arnynt i oresgyn y pwysau presennol ar eu llif arian? Diolch.
Well, it depends where businesses are, in which sector they're operating, as to the particular pressures they've got, but everyone is going to face some of the challenges about the increases in energy prices, for example. So, there is a really significant challenge.
As we're, hopefully, coming out of the emergency phase of the pandemic, businesses are looking from survival to the future, and I am looking forward to having more regular conversations with stakeholders from those business groups, whether it's in retail, the visitor economy, the rest of the economy, about what we can do to support them with the plans that they will have for growth of their business and what that means in terms of the jobs and keeping the staff they've got, because one of the big challenges, again, every sector faces is the challenge for labour. As the labour market has become tighter, there's a greater premium on skills, there's a greater premium on keeping experienced and good staff, because other businesses are looking to recruit those people. In many ways, lots of the wage growth that we have seen in the sectors where it's existed has been because of the competition for people already in work, with other companies looking to pay a premium to get those people to move across. But you can expect me to have those regular conversations with business groups and individual businesses to see what we can do to help them to find the sources of business support and capital that may help them to see their businesses sustained in the future.
Wel, mae'n dibynnu lle mae busnesau arni, ym mha sector y maent yn gweithredu, a’r pwysau penodol sydd arnynt, ond bydd pawb yn wynebu rhai o'r heriau gyda'r cynnydd ym mhrisiau ynni, er enghraifft. Felly, mae yna her sylweddol iawn.
Gan ein bod ni, gobeithio, yn dod allan o gyfnod argyfyngus y pandemig, mae busnesau sydd wedi goroesi yn edrych i'r dyfodol, ac rwy'n edrych ymlaen at gael sgyrsiau mwy rheolaidd gyda rhanddeiliaid o'r grwpiau busnes hynny, boed ym maes manwerthu, yr economi ymwelwyr, neu weddill yr economi, am yr hyn y gallwn ei wneud i’w cefnogi gyda’u cynlluniau ar gyfer tyfu eu busnesau a beth y mae hynny’n ei olygu o ran y swyddi a chadw’r staff sydd ganddynt, oherwydd un o’r heriau mawr, unwaith eto, y mae pob sector yn eu hwynebu yw her llafur. Wrth i'r farchnad lafur dynhau, mae mwy o bremiwm ar sgiliau, mae mwy o bremiwm ar gadw staff da a phrofiadol, oherwydd mae busnesau eraill eisiau recriwtio’r bobl hynny. Mewn sawl ffordd, mae llawer o’r cynnydd yn y cyflogau a welsom yn y sectorau lle mae wedi bodoli wedi digwydd oherwydd y gystadleuaeth am bobl sydd eisoes mewn gwaith, gyda chwmnïau eraill yn awyddus i dalu premiwm i gael y bobl hynny i symud atynt. Ond gallwch ddisgwyl y byddaf yn cael y sgyrsiau rheolaidd hynny gyda grwpiau busnes a busnesau unigol i weld beth y gallwn ei wneud i'w helpu i ddod o hyd i'r ffynonellau cymorth busnes a chyfalaf a allai eu helpu i gynnal eu busnesau yn y dyfodol.
I know how busy the Minister is, so I'm not sure he had a chance to watch the clip on Channel 4 News last week, covering how the cost-of-living crisis is affecting residents in communities like Penrhys in my constituency. I know, just from the e-mails and messages I received yesterday, that the £330 million package of support the Welsh Government has announced has been welcomed with open arms and will make a world of difference to some of the families most in need in Rhondda. This is in stark contrast to the actions of the UK Conservative Government who have failed to effectively use the levers available to them, offering only a £200 loan. As my colleague Sarah Murphy said yesterday, those most affected by the cost-of-living crisis aren't the ones at fault here. Does the Minister agree that the UK Government needs to step up and support residents across Wales, not leave us out in the cold?
Gwn pa mor brysur yw’r Gweinidog, felly nid wyf yn siŵr a gafodd gyfle i wylio’r clip ar Channel 4 News yr wythnos diwethaf, a oedd yn sôn ynglŷn â sut y mae’r argyfwng costau byw yn effeithio ar drigolion mewn cymunedau fel Pen-rhys yn fy etholaeth. O’r e-byst a’r negeseuon a gefais ddoe yn unig, gwn fod y pecyn cymorth gwerth £330 miliwn y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi’i gyhoeddi wedi’i groesawu â breichiau agored ac y bydd yn gwneud byd o wahaniaeth i rai o’r teuluoedd mwyaf anghenus yn y Rhondda. Mae hyn mewn cyferbyniad llwyr â gweithredoedd Llywodraeth Geidwadol y DU sydd wedi methu defnyddio’r ysgogiadau sydd ar gael iddynt yn effeithiol, gan gynnig benthyciad o £200 yn unig. Fel y dywedodd fy nghyd-Aelod, Sarah Murphy, ddoe, nid y rhai yr effeithiwyd arnynt fwyaf gan yr argyfwng costau byw yw’r rhai sydd ar fai yma. A yw’r Gweinidog yn cytuno bod angen i Lywodraeth y DU gamu i’r adwy a chefnogi trigolion ledled Cymru, yn hytrach na’n hanwybyddu ni?
I completely agree, and I did see some of the report on Channel 4, and it was deeply upsetting, not just because of the people facing that position, because I know that I will have constituents in the southern part of the city of Cardiff who are equally facing really significant challenge in how they're going to meet their own household incomings and outgoings and are genuinely fearful for their future. And they're fearful with good reason, because, for many families, it comes down to pounds and pennies. For many families, having the energy increases that are coming will be a very real challenge for an even greater number of people. It's why the further rises we expect to see in April are such bad news, and people know that's coming as well.
The UK Government need to look again, because the loan they're providing will add on to future bills for people who are least likely to be able to afford them. They also do need to look again at the support they've provided, because the scheme in Wales is a much more generous package, with everyone who receives a council tax reduction benefit also receiving part of the package that we have announced, but I don't think the current package is in any way going to be adequate, and it's a test for whether the Government is prepared to do the right thing to spend money on families who are not responsible for the cost-of-living crisis, or whether they will simply leave them to their fate. I know what this Government would do if we had the means to provide more help, and I know what a Government led by our party in the UK would do to make sure that people are not left to their fate but are properly supported through a crisis that is not of their making.
Rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr, a gwelais beth o’r adroddiad ar Channel 4, ac roedd yn peri gofid mawr, nid yn unig am fod pobl yn wynebu’r sefyllfa honno, oherwydd gwn y bydd gennyf etholwyr yn rhan ddeheuol dinas Caerdydd sydd hefyd yn wynebu her sylweddol iawn o ran sut y byddant yn rheoli incwm a gwariant eu haelwyd eu hunain ac sy’n wirioneddol ofnus am eu dyfodol. Ac nid yw hynny heb reswm, oherwydd, i lawer o deuluoedd, mae’n fater o bunnoedd a cheiniogau. I lawer o deuluoedd, bydd y cynnydd sy'n dod i filiau ynni yn her wirioneddol i nifer hyd yn oed yn fwy o bobl. Dyna pam y mae'r codiadau pellach y disgwyliwn eu gweld ym mis Ebrill yn newyddion mor ddrwg, ac mae pobl yn gwybod eu bod yn dod hefyd.
Mae angen i Lywodraeth y DU edrych eto, oherwydd bydd y benthyciad y maent yn ei ddarparu yn ychwanegu at filiau’r dyfodol i'r bobl sydd leiaf tebygol o allu eu fforddio. Mae angen iddynt edrych eto hefyd ar y cymorth y maent wedi’i ddarparu, oherwydd mae’r cynllun yng Nghymru yn becyn llawer mwy hael, gyda phawb sy’n cael budd-dal gostyngiad y dreth gyngor hefyd yn cael rhan o’r pecyn a gyhoeddwyd gennym, ond nid wyf yn credu y bydd y pecyn presennol yn ddigonol mewn unrhyw ffordd, ac mae’n brawf i weld a yw’r Llywodraeth yn barod i wneud y peth iawn a gwario arian ar deuluoedd nad oes bai arnynt am yr argyfwng costau byw, neu a fyddant yn eu gadael i'w tynged. Gwn beth y byddai’r Llywodraeth hon yn ei wneud pe bai gennym fodd o ddarparu mwy o gymorth, a gwn beth y byddai Llywodraeth dan arweiniad ein plaid yn y DU yn ei wneud i sicrhau nad yw pobl yn cael eu gadael i’w tynged ond yn hytrach yn cael eu cefnogi’n briodol drwy argyfwng nad oes unrhyw fai arnynt hwy amdano.
4. Sut mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn helpu pobl ifanc i gael eu cyflogi? OQ57632
4. How is the Welsh Government helping young people into employment? OQ57632
We are investing £1.7 billion in the young person's guarantee over the next three years. Working Wales is the single gateway for access to the guarantee, including Jobs Growth Wales, Communities for Work Plus and apprenticeships. Working Wales is also trialling a new job-matching service to assist with securing employment.
Rydym yn buddsoddi £1.7 biliwn yn y warant i bobl ifanc dros y tair blynedd nesaf. Cymru'n Gweithio yw'r porth ar gyfer mynediad i'r warant, yn cynnwys Twf Swyddi Cymru, Cymunedau am Waith a Mwy a phrentisiaethau. Mae Cymru'n Gweithio hefyd yn treialu gwasanaeth paru â swyddi newydd i helpu i sicrhau cyflogaeth.
Well, thank you, Minister. It is hugely ambitious, not least the target of 125,000 apprenticeships to be created by the Welsh Labour Government during this Senedd term, but, of course, this programme relies on securing money that used to come from the European Union, and so could you provide an assessment of the impact that the lost EU funds could have on skills training here in Wales, and the extent of funding that Wales has lost and is likely to lose as a result of UK Government decisions since we left the European Union?
Wel, diolch ichi, Weinidog. Mae'n uchelgeisiol iawn, yn enwedig targed Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru i greu 125,000 o brentisiaethau yn ystod tymor y Senedd hon, ond wrth gwrs, mae'r rhaglen hon yn dibynnu ar sicrhau arian a arferai ddod o'r Undeb Ewropeaidd, ac felly a allech chi ddarparu asesiad o'r effaith y gallai colli arian yr UE ei chael ar hyfforddiant sgiliau yma yng Nghymru, a graddau'r cyllid y mae Cymru wedi'i golli ac y mae'n debygol o'i golli o ganlyniad i benderfyniadau Llywodraeth y DU ers inni adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd?
Yes. Well, we think we're going to lose about £1 billion up to the end of the financial year 2024, £1 billion that should have come to Wales to be spent in Wales, and, of course, previously, that Ministers here would have had responsibility for making those choices and we would have been accountable to Members elected to this Parliament for those choices. We know that money both isn't going to be spent and the smaller replacement sums are not going to have decisions made at present by Ministers here, and they're going to go through local authorities, cutting out further and higher education, cutting out the third sector, and, crucially, undermining the way in which we fund skills and training programmes. For example, we expect to have lost £16 million of European funding just to support the apprenticeship programme by the end of 2024. That means that, in the £366 million that I announced last week to support the apprenticeship programme for the next three years, I've had to take that money from other priorities. Because the future of that 125,000 apprenticeship target is so important for the future of our economy, for the future of young people in particular, to make sure they do have hope for the future, I now have to make up for that by deprioritising other areas of spending, and that is a problem for the economy. I don't believe anyone voted for that, either in the referendum to leave the European Union or at the last election. No party said, 'We want to see less money spent in Wales and less support for the future of our economy', but that is the choice that we face. But it also underlines the importance of skills for the future and our continued investment and support for the apprenticeship programme.
Ie. Wel, credwn y byddwn wedi colli tua £1 biliwn hyd at ddiwedd blwyddyn ariannol 2024, £1 biliwn a ddylai fod wedi dod i Gymru i'w wario yng Nghymru, ac wrth gwrs, o'r blaen, byddai Gweinidogion yma wedi bod yn gyfrifol am wneud y dewisiadau hynny a byddem wedi bod yn atebol i Aelodau a etholwyd i'r Senedd hon am y dewisiadau hynny. Gwyddom na fydd yr arian yn cael ei wario ac na fydd Gweinidogion yma sy'n gwneud penderfyniadau ar hyn o bryd yn gwneud penderfyniadau ynghylch y symiau llai o arian a ddaw yn lle'r arian hwnnw, ac y byddant yn mynd drwy awdurdodau lleol, gan adael addysg bellach ac addysg uwch allan, gan adael y trydydd sector allan, ac yn hollbwysig, gan danseilio'r ffordd yr ydym yn ariannu rhaglenni sgiliau a hyfforddiant. Er enghraifft, disgwyliwn y byddwn wedi colli £16 miliwn o gyllid Ewropeaidd i gefnogi'r rhaglen brentisiaethau yn unig hyd at ddiwedd 2024. Mae hynny'n golygu, yn y £366 miliwn a gyhoeddais yr wythnos ddiwethaf i gefnogi'r rhaglen brentisiaethau am y tair blynedd nesaf, fy mod wedi gorfod mynd â'r arian hwnnw o flaenoriaethau eraill. Am fod dyfodol y targed prentisiaeth hwnnw o 125,000 mor bwysig ar gyfer dyfodol ein heconomi, ar gyfer dyfodol pobl ifanc yn enwedig, i sicrhau bod ganddynt obaith ar gyfer y dyfodol, mae'n rhaid imi ddod o hyd i hwnnw drwy ddadflaenoriaethu meysydd gwariant eraill, ac mae hynny'n broblem i'r economi. Nid wyf yn credu bod neb wedi pleidleisio dros hynny, naill ai yn y refferendwm i adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd neu yn yr etholiad diwethaf. Ni ddywedodd yr un blaid, 'Rydym eisiau gweld llai o arian yn cael ei wario yng Nghymru a llai o gefnogaeth i ddyfodol ein heconomi', ond dyna'r dewis sy'n ein hwynebu. Ond mae hefyd yn tanlinellu pwysigrwydd sgiliau ar gyfer y dyfodol a'n buddsoddiad a'n cefnogaeth barhaus i'r rhaglen brentisiaethau.
Can I thank the Member for Clwyd South for raising the issue? Minister, at the end of last year, I raised the issue of opportunities available to young people in Wales after a constituent wrote to me highlighting their concerns about a lack of apprenticeships and degree apprenticeships on offer to their children. Such opportunities are important, as we just spoke about, to help those young people get into employment. I appreciated your response to my letter, and I know you referenced the young person's guarantee, which was officially launched, we know, November last year, and includes more support for apprenticeships. This is in addition to initiatives like the skills and jobs fund, which provided funding to incentivise employers to recruit and retrain apprentices. Whilst these schemes are welcome, it's vital that they not only result in apprenticeship opportunities, but actually improve outcomes for young people, such as leading to further training and good quality jobs. So, Minister, what assessment have you made of the impact of these schemes on the availability of apprenticeships in Wales, as well as the outcomes that have been secured as a result of the opportunities created by the schemes? Because it's not just about money—it's about the outcomes that that money is being used on.
A gaf fi ddiolch i'r Aelod dros Dde Clwyd am godi'r mater? Weinidog, ddiwedd y llynedd, codais fater yn ymwneud â'r cyfleoedd sydd ar gael i bobl ifanc yng Nghymru ar ôl i etholwr ysgrifennu ataf yn tynnu sylw at eu pryderon ynglŷn â'r prinder prentisiaethau a phrentisiaethau gradd sydd ar gael i'w plant. Mae cyfleoedd o'r fath yn bwysig, fel y dywedwyd yn awr, i helpu'r bobl ifanc hynny i ddod o hyd i waith. Roeddwn yn gwerthfawrogi eich ymateb i fy llythyr, a gwn ichi gyfeirio at y warant i bobl ifanc, a lansiwyd yn swyddogol, fe wyddom, ym mis Tachwedd y llynedd, ac mae'n cynnwys rhagor o gefnogaeth i brentisiaethau. Mae hyn yn ychwanegol at fentrau fel y gronfa sgiliau a swyddi, a ddarparai gyllid i gymell cyflogwyr i recriwtio ac ailhyfforddi prentisiaid. Er bod y cynlluniau hyn i'w croesawu, mae'n hanfodol eu bod nid yn unig yn arwain at gyfleoedd prentisiaeth, ond yn gwella canlyniadau i bobl ifanc, megis arwain at hyfforddiant pellach a swyddi o ansawdd da. Felly, Weinidog, pa asesiad a wnaethoch o effaith y cynlluniau hyn ar argaeledd prentisiaethau yng Nghymru, yn ogystal â'r canlyniadau a sicrhawyd o ganlyniad i'r cyfleoedd a grëwyd gan y cynlluniau? Oherwydd mae'n ymwneud â mwy nag arian yn unig—mae'n ymwneud â chanlyniadau'r hyn y gwerir yr arian hwnnw arno.
I'd be very happy to provide a further note to Members on this, because, actually, every time we have looked in the past, certainly in my membership of this place, we've actually found that apprenticeship outcomes for people in Wales compare very favourably with other parts of the UK, in particular across the border in England. You can find more people completing their apprenticeships and going on to secure employment. And, to be fair, the previous questioner, during his time both as a Deputy Minister, when he had responsibility for skills, and then in his time as the economy Minister, has had oversight for a significant part of that success. I'd be more than happy to provide a note setting out the outcomes achieved and the benefit that apprenticeships provide for individuals and the economy here in Wales.
Byddwn yn hapus iawn i roi nodyn pellach i'r Aelodau ar hyn, oherwydd, mewn gwirionedd, bob tro y gwnaethom edrych yn y gorffennol, yn sicr ers imi ddod yn Aelod yn y lle hwn, rydym wedi canfod bod canlyniadau prentisiaethau i bobl yng Nghymru yn cymharu'n ffafriol iawn â rhannau eraill o'r DU, yn enwedig dros y ffin yn Lloegr. Gallwch weld mwy o bobl yn cwblhau eu prentisiaethau ac yn mynd rhagddynt i gael gwaith. Ac i fod yn deg, mae'r holwr blaenorol, yn ystod ei gyfnod fel Dirprwy Weinidog, pan oedd ganddo gyfrifoldeb dros sgiliau, ac yna yn ystod ei gyfnod fel Gweinidog yr economi, wedi goruchwylio dros ran sylweddol o'r llwyddiant hwnnw. Byddwn yn fwy na pharod i ddarparu nodyn yn nodi'r canlyniadau a gyflawnwyd a'r budd y mae prentisiaethau'n eu darparu i unigolion a'r economi yma yng Nghymru.
In a recent labour market update, the unemployment figures for Swansea West were roughly three times the national average, at 10.3 per cent. One in 10 people in our second largest city are currently without employment. This situation becomes even more stark when you factor in that youth unemployment is typically higher than regular unemployment. The unemployment rate for 16 to 24-year-olds in Wales is currently 12 per cent, with the figure for Swansea sure to be higher than this if we assume that youth unemployment figures follow the same trend as general unemployment figures for Swansea West. Could the Minister outline specifically how the youth jobs guarantee and other youth employment schemes will seek to address youth unemployment, not just in Swansea, but across South Wales West? And when does he expect to see these employability schemes bear fruit?
Mewn diweddariad ar y farchnad lafur yn ddiweddar, roedd y ffigurau diweithdra ar gyfer Gorllewin Abertawe tua thair gwaith y cyfartaledd cenedlaethol, sef 10.3 y cant. Mae un o bob 10 o bobl yn ein hail ddinas fwyaf heb waith ar hyn o bryd. Mae'r sefyllfa hon hyd yn oed yn fwy llwm pan ystyriwch fod diweithdra ymysg pobl ifanc fel arfer yn uwch na diweithdra yn gyffredinol. Mae'r gyfradd ddiweithdra ar gyfer pobl ifanc 16 i 24 oed yng Nghymru yn 12 y cant ar hyn o bryd, gyda'r ffigur ar gyfer Abertawe yn sicr o fod yn uwch na hyn os rhagdybiwn fod ffigurau diweithdra ymysg pobl ifanc yn dilyn yr un duedd â'r ffigurau diweithdra cyffredinol ar gyfer Gorllewin Abertawe. A wnaiff y Gweinidog amlinellu'n benodol sut y bydd y warant swyddi i bobl ifanc a chynlluniau cyflogaeth eraill i bobl ifanc yn ceisio mynd i'r afael â diweithdra ymysg pobl ifanc, nid yn unig yn Abertawe, ond ar draws Gorllewin De Cymru? A phryd y mae'n disgwyl y bydd y cynlluniau cyflogadwyedd hyn yn dwyn ffrwyth?
Well, some of the schemes that we're going to provide should bear fruit rather more immediately. For example, we've got the opportunity to carry on supporting young entrepreneurs through Big Ideas Wales—you can see those people starting up their businesses; you can see the barriers to employment fund that we're providing. So, you'll find some of them will have a more immediate impact and others will take longer, because, in the employability support we provide, for example, in the Job Growth Wales+ scheme, a range of the support schemes is actually about making sure people are ready for jobs, looking at the skills issues they have, looking to supporting them with a personalised range of support around them, so you're going to see a longer term impact of that.
And, actually, I expect to publish the new employability plan in the coming weeks, and that again will set out further detail on how we are going to use the responsibilities and the resources we have to be able to complement what the Department for Work and Pensions are now doing, and that will probably mean we're going to seek to address the challenges of people who are further away from the labour market. So, it's likely to cost more than DWP schemes, helping people who are, essentially, job ready, but also it may take longer to get those people ready. But, as we do publish the employability strategy, I look forward to being able to provide more detail on the points you make and how we'll then assess the outcomes that we think we're going to be able to achieve with and for people, whether young people or older people, in terms of the employment outcomes we want to see in every community across Wales.
Wel, dylai rhai o'r cynlluniau y byddwn yn eu darparu ddwyn ffrwyth yn fwy uniongyrchol. Er enghraifft, mae gennym gyfle i barhau i gefnogi entrepreneuriaid ifanc drwy Syniadau Mawr Cymru—gallwch weld y bobl hynny'n dechrau eu busnesau, gallwch weld y gronfa rhwystr at waith rydym yn ei darparu. Felly, fe welwch y bydd rhai ohonynt yn cael effaith fwy uniongyrchol a bydd eraill yn cymryd mwy o amser, oherwydd, yn y cymorth cyflogadwyedd a ddarparwn, er enghraifft, yng nghynllun Twf Swyddi Cymru+, mae amrywiaeth o'r cynlluniau cymorth yn ymwneud â sicrhau bod pobl yn barod ar gyfer swyddi, gan edrych ar y problemau sgiliau sydd ganddynt, a cheisio eu cefnogi gydag ystod bersonol o gymorth, felly byddwch yn gweld effaith fwy hirdymor yn hynny o beth.
Ac mewn gwirionedd, rwy'n disgwyl cyhoeddi'r cynllun cyflogadwyedd newydd yn yr wythnosau nesaf, a bydd hwnnw eto'n nodi rhagor o fanylion ynglŷn â sut y byddwn yn defnyddio'r cyfrifoldebau a'r adnoddau sydd gennym i ategu'r hyn y mae'r Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau yn ei wneud yn awr, ac mae'n debyg y bydd hynny'n golygu y byddwn yn ceisio mynd i'r afael â heriau pobl sydd ymhellach i ffwrdd o'r farchnad lafur. Felly, mae'n debygol o gostio mwy na chynlluniau'r Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau, gan helpu pobl sy'n barod i weithio yn y bôn, ond hefyd efallai y bydd yn cymryd mwy o amser i baratoi'r bobl hynny. Ond wrth inni gyhoeddi'r strategaeth cyflogadwyedd, edrychaf ymlaen at allu rhoi mwy o fanylion am y pwyntiau a wnewch a sut y byddwn wedyn yn asesu'r canlyniadau y credwn y gallwn eu cyflawni gyda phobl ac ar gyfer pobl, boed yn bobl ifanc neu'n bobl hŷn, o ran y canlyniadau cyflogaeth rydym eisiau eu gweld ym mhob cymuned ledled Cymru.
5. Pa gamau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu cymryd i gefnogi busnesau newydd yng Nghwm Cynon? OQ57659
5. What action is the Welsh Government taking to support business start-ups in Cynon Valley? OQ57659
Thank you. We have a suite of business-support products available through the Business Wales service to support start-ups with a variety of subjects, from hiring staff to identifying appropriate finance. Providing start-up opportunities is also a key strand of the young person's guarantee offer.
Diolch. Mae gennym gyfres o gynhyrchion cymorth busnes ar gael drwy wasanaeth Busnes Cymru i gefnogi busnesau newydd gydag amrywiaeth o bynciau, o logi staff i nodi cyllid priodol. Mae darparu cyfleoedd dechrau busnes hefyd yn elfen allweddol o gynnig y warant i bobl ifanc.
Thank you, Minister. As you note, there is a lot of support out there for start-ups, not just from Welsh Government, but also from, for example, Rhondda Cynon Taf council, with its nine-to-five hub for budding entrepreneurs. However, recent research from the Bevan Foundation suggests that there needs to be at least 1,000 new businesses in the Cynon Valley just to match the Welsh average. How can Welsh Government work to accelerate the rate of start-ups in the Cynon Valley and help to close this worrying gap?
Diolch, Weinidog. Fel y nodwch, mae llawer o gefnogaeth ar gael i fusnesau newydd, nid yn unig gan Lywodraeth Cymru, ond hefyd gan gyngor Rhondda Cynon Taf, er enghraifft, gyda'i ganolfan naw tan bump ar gyfer entrepreneuriaid newydd. Fodd bynnag, mae ymchwil ddiweddar gan Sefydliad Bevan yn awgrymu bod angen o leiaf 1,000 o fusnesau newydd yng Nghwm Cynon er mwyn cyrraedd cyfartaledd Cymru. Sut y gall Llywodraeth Cymru weithio i gyflymu'r gyfradd o fusnesau newydd yng Nghwm Cynon a helpu i gau'r bwlch hwn sy'n peri pryder?
That's part of the reason why it's been so important to try to maintain the investment in not just skills, but also in the business support service that we provide through Business Wales, because we can provide a bespoke package of support, for either individuals or for particular areas. Now, I think that would be something that would be well worth exploring between my officials and RCT, as you mentioned it, as the local authority, who already do have active programmes within the county area. But, as you've identified the Cynon as a particular area, it may make sense for me to contact your office to see if we can have a conversation about what we might be able to do specifically around Cynon Valley with yourself and the local authority and my officials working with Business Wales.
Dyna ran o'r rheswm pam ei bod mor bwysig ceisio cynnal y buddsoddiad nid yn unig mewn sgiliau, ond hefyd yn y gwasanaeth cymorth busnes a ddarparwn drwy Busnes Cymru, oherwydd gallwn ddarparu pecyn cymorth pwrpasol, ar gyfer unigolion neu ar gyfer ardaloedd penodol. Nawr, credaf y byddai hynny'n rhywbeth y byddai'n werth ei archwilio rhwng fy swyddogion a RhCT fel yr awdurdod lleol, fel y sonioch chi amdano, sydd eisoes â rhaglenni gweithredol yn ardal y sir. Ond gan eich bod wedi nodi Cwm Cynon yn benodol, efallai y byddai'n gwneud synnwyr imi gysylltu â'ch swyddfa i weld a allwn gael sgwrs am yr hyn y gallem ei wneud yn benodol o amgylch Cwm Cynon gyda chi a'r awdurdod lleol a fy swyddogion yn gweithio gyda Busnes Cymru.
6. Pa asesiad y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi'i wneud o effaith treth twristiaeth ar economi Gogledd Cymru? OQ57634
6. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of a tourism tax on the economy of North Wales? OQ57634
We are working with a wide range of partners to understand the potential economic impact of a visitor levy in Wales. It will be for local authorities to decide if they raise a levy on visitors. They will be empowered in local authorities to make their own judgment with support from the Welsh Government.
Rydym yn gweithio gydag ystod eang o bartneriaid i ddeall effaith economaidd bosibl ardoll ymwelwyr yng Nghymru. Mater i awdurdodau lleol fydd penderfynu a fyddant yn codi ardoll ar ymwelwyr. Cânt eu grymuso mewn awdurdodau lleol i wneud eu penderfyniadau eu hunain gyda chymorth Llywodraeth Cymru.
I know you want to pass the buck to local authorities in respect of this tax, but the reality is that it's your Welsh Labour Government that is setting the road ahead and actually facilitating the introduction of a tax that could decimate the economy of north Wales. Tourism, to our nation, is worth billions, and tens of thousands of people across the north Wales region are employed in tourism jobs and, in addition, many shops in our town centres, businesses like cafes, restaurants, and everything else survive on the annual income that comes from visitors' pockets. Do you accept that a tourism tax being introduced in north Wales could decimate the industry and cause price-sensitive tourists to, instead of visiting Colwyn Bay, Towyn and Kinmel Bay, Rhyl, Prestatyn, Llandudno and the other wonderful resorts that north Wales has to offer, that it could cause them to hop, skip and jump to places like Blackpool, Morecambe and elsewhere, where their economies will boom and ours will suffer as a result?
Gwn eich bod eisiau trosglwyddo'r baich i awdurdodau lleol mewn perthynas â'r dreth hon, ond y gwir amdani yw mai'r Llywodraeth Lafur yng Nghymru sy'n gosod y ffordd ymlaen ac yn hwyluso cyflwyno treth a allai ddinistrio economi gogledd Cymru. Mae twristiaeth yn werth biliynau i'n gwlad, ac mae degau o filoedd o bobl ar draws rhanbarth y gogledd yn cael eu cyflogi mewn swyddi twristiaeth ac yn ogystal, mae llawer o siopau yng nghanol ein trefi, busnesau fel caffis, bwytai, a phopeth arall yn goroesi ar yr incwm blynyddol a ddaw o bocedi ymwelwyr. A ydych yn derbyn y gallai cyflwyno treth twristiaeth yng ngogledd Cymru ddinistrio'r diwydiant ac achosi i dwristiaid sy'n sensitif i brisiau, yn hytrach nag ymweld â Bae Colwyn, Tywyn a Bae Cinmel, y Rhyl, Prestatyn, Llandudno a'r cyrchfannau gwych eraill sydd gan ogledd Cymru i'w cynnig, heidio i leoedd fel Blackpool, Morecambe a mannau eraill, lle bydd eu heconomïau'n ffynnu a'n heconomïau ni'n dioddef o ganlyniad?
I know that Darren Millar regularly likes to get excited—
Gwn fod Darren Millar yn hoffi cyffroi yn rheolaidd—
I certainly do.
Ydw, yn sicr.
—and be fast and free with phrases, but, look, I think he might want to pause and take some time on the subs bench while this issue is being decided by the grown ups. You see, when you look across Europe and north America, when you look at where a levy is a regular part of the tourism industry, you don't find anything to support the scaremongering and world-ending predictions that he excitedly makes. The idea that this will decimate the visitor economy is without any kind of evidential basis whatsoever. If you look at what we're discussing, it is how local authorities could understand what they could do for communities that see a benefit from the return of visitors, but also some of the challenges that that brings as well, and how they would decide, with the powers that they would have, whether they wanted to introduce a levy, and if so, on what basis. Now, that's the consultation we're having.
If there is any actual evidence, rather than hyperbole, from the Member and his colleagues that a levy would have any kind of detrimental impact, we'd want to see that as part of the consultation before we make choices. I believe that we can do something to invest in our visitor economy, and we have a good basis, because we have such a wonderful range of visitor attractions for people to come here to Wales, and I actually have very good and optimistic hopes built on evidence for the future of our visitor economy, regardless of the eventual outcomes of the visitor levy in different parts of Wales.
—a thaflu geiriau o gwmpas, ond edrychwch, credaf efallai y dylai oedi a chymryd hoe fach ar fainc yr eilyddion tra bod y mater hwn yn cael ei benderfynu gan yr oedolion. Pan edrychwch ar draws Ewrop a gogledd America, pan edrychwch ar lefydd lle mae ardoll yn rhan reolaidd o'u diwydiant twristiaeth, ni welwch unrhyw beth i gefnogi'r codi bwganod a'r rhagfynegiadau diwedd-y-byd y mae'n cyffroi wrth eu gwneud. Nid oes unrhyw fath o sail dystiolaethol o gwbl i'r syniad y bydd hyn yn dinistrio'r economi ymwelwyr. Os edrychwch ar yr hyn a drafodwn, mae'n ymwneud â sut y gallai awdurdodau lleol ddeall yr hyn y gallent ei wneud i gymunedau sy'n arwain at elwa o weld ymwelwyr yn dychwelyd, ond hefyd rhai o'r heriau a ddaw yn sgil hynny, a sut y byddent yn penderfynu, gyda'r pwerau a fyddai ganddynt, a fyddent eisiau cyflwyno ardoll, ac os felly, ar ba sail. Nawr, dyna yw'r ymgynghoriad yr ydym yn ei gael.
Os oes unrhyw dystiolaeth wirioneddol, yn hytrach na gormodiaith, gan yr Aelod a'i gyd-Aelodau y byddai ardoll yn cael unrhyw fath o effaith andwyol, byddem eisiau gweld hynny yn rhan o'r ymgynghoriad cyn inni wneud penderfyniadau. Credaf y gallwn wneud rhywbeth i fuddsoddi yn ein heconomi ymwelwyr, ac mae gennym sail dda, oherwydd mae gennym ystod mor wych o atyniadau i ymwelwyr i ddenu pobl yma i Gymru, ac mae gennyf obeithion da ac optimistaidd iawn wedi'u hadeiladu ar dystiolaeth ar gyfer dyfodol ein heconomi ymwelwyr, ni waeth beth fo canlyniadau'r ardoll ymwelwyr mewn gwahanol rannau o Gymru yn y pen draw.
7. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am y cymorth sydd ar gael i fusnesau bach yng Nghanolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru? OQ57672
7. Will the Minister make a statement on the support available to small businesses in Mid and West Wales? OQ57672
The Welsh Government remains fully committed to supporting micro, small and medium enterprises in all parts of Wales. SMEs can access a wide range of information, advice and support through our Business Wales service and, of course, the Development Bank of Wales.
Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn parhau i fod yn gwbl ymrwymedig i gefnogi mentrau micro, bach a chanolig ym mhob rhan o Gymru. Gall busnesau bach a chanolig gael gafael ar ystod eang o wybodaeth, cyngor a chymorth drwy ein gwasanaeth Busnes Cymru, a Banc Datblygu Cymru wrth gwrs.
Thank you, Minister. Small and medium-sized enterprises, as you have said, account for 62.4 per cent of employment and 37.9 per cent of turnover, worth around £46 billion for the Welsh economy. Just last week I spoke to a restaurant owner in my region who is actively considering closing their doors because of not being able to recruit staff. Could I ask what the mechanism is for how the young person's guarantee will tie in with those small business that are facing those recruitment challenges, both enabling young people to access work and gain skills and to support small businesses to grow? Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Diolch, Weinidog. Busnesau bach a chanolig eu maint, fel y dywedoch chi, sydd i gyfrif am 62.4 y cant o gyflogaeth a 37.9 y cant o drosiant, gwerth tua £46 biliwn ar gyfer economi Cymru. Yr wythnos diwethaf, siaradais â pherchennog bwyty yn fy rhanbarth sy'n ystyried cau oherwydd nad ydynt yn gallu recriwtio staff. A gaf fi ofyn beth yw'r mecanwaith ar gyfer cysylltiad rhwng y warant i bobl ifanc a'r busnesau bach sy'n wynebu'r heriau recriwtio hynny, gan alluogi pobl ifanc i gael gwaith ac i feithrin sgiliau a chefnogi busnesau bach i dyfu? Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Well, there's a range of strands within the young person's guarantee that may help, but there's a range of other challenges that businesses may face. So, for example, there's a job matching service in understanding how you match people to job opportunities that exist; there's the work of the ReAct+ service, which is going to be a new, bespoke service, again looking to wrap around what individuals need to help them get themselves into employment opportunities; and as I've previously discussed, in answer to Luke Fletcher, the opportunities that the new Jobs Growth Wales+ will provide for people to get into the world of work.
There are other challenges, though, that fall well outside the young person's guarantee. Those do go back to some of the challenges we've got on access to finance and the difference in the way that European funds were used and are being used now—for example, they're certainly part of how we fund the Development Bank of Wales, so there's a challenge there about its future finances. There's also the challenge over skills as well, because in every area of the economy, businesses are interested in continuing to be able to invest in skills. The current design of the way that shared prosperity funds are supposed to work means it's very, very difficult to find a way to have a properly comprehensive skills support package, bearing in mind that a third of our skills and apprenticeship packages in the past have been funded from former European moneys. And of course you have some of the challenges about some people having left the labour market here in Wales and the UK—older workers and, of course, European workers, many of whom returned to their home countries and are unlikely to return. There's a range of challenges to look at, and those are exactly the challenges I do discuss with small business representatives in my regular conversations with them, and I look forward to being able to do more of that face to face in the future.
Wel, ceir amryw o elfennau yn y warant i bobl ifanc a allai fod o gymorth, ond ceir amryw o heriau eraill y gallai busnesau eu hwynebu. Felly, er enghraifft, ceir gwasanaeth paru â swyddi i ddeall sut y gallwch baru pobl â chyfleoedd gwaith sy'n bodoli, ceir gwaith gwasanaeth ReAct+, a fydd yn wasanaeth newydd, pwrpasol, sydd unwaith eto'n ceisio cwmpasu'r hyn sydd ei angen ar unigolion i'w helpu i fanteisio ar gyfleoedd gwaith, ac fel y trafodais yn flaenorol wrth ateb Luke Fletcher, y cyfleoedd y bydd Twf Swyddi Cymru+ yn eu darparu i gael pobl i mewn i'r byd gwaith.
Fodd bynnag, ceir heriau eraill y tu hwnt i'r warant i bobl ifanc. Mae'r rheini'n deillio o rai o'r heriau sydd gennym gyda mynediad at gyllid a'r gwahaniaeth yn y ffordd y defnyddiwyd arian Ewropeaidd a'r ffordd y caiff ei ddefnyddio yn awr—er enghraifft, maent yn sicr yn rhan o'r ffordd yr ydym yn ariannu Banc Datblygu Cymru, felly mae yna her yno mewn perthynas â'i gyllid yn y dyfodol. Mae yna her o ran sgiliau hefyd, oherwydd ym mhob rhan o'r economi, mae gan fusnesau ddiddordeb mewn parhau i allu buddsoddi mewn sgiliau. Mae cynllun presennol y ffordd y mae cronfeydd ffyniant cyffredin i fod i weithio yn golygu ei bod yn anodd iawn dod o hyd i ffordd o gael pecyn cymorth sgiliau sy'n briodol gynhwysfawr o gofio bod traean o'n pecynnau sgiliau a phrentisiaethau yn y gorffennol wedi'u hariannu gan hen arian Ewropeaidd. Ac wrth gwrs mae gennych rai o'r heriau sy'n deillio o fod rhai pobl wedi gadael y farchnad lafur yma yng Nghymru a'r DU—gweithwyr hŷn, a gweithwyr Ewropeaidd, wrth gwrs, y mae llawer ohonynt wedi dychwelyd i'w gwledydd cartref ac yn annhebygol o ddychwelyd. Ceir amrywiaeth o heriau i fynd i'r afael â hwy, a dyna'r heriau rwy'n eu trafod gyda chynrychiolwyr busnesau bach yn fy sgyrsiau rheolaidd â hwy, ac edrychaf ymlaen at allu gwneud mwy o hynny wyneb yn wyneb yn y dyfodol.
And finally, question 8, James Evans.
Ac yn olaf, cwestiwn 8, James Evans.
8. A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am y cymorth ariannol a roddwyd i fusnesau yn ystod y gyfres ddiweddaraf o gyfyngiadau COVID-19? OQ57665
8. Will the Minister provide an update on the financial support provided to businesses during the last set of COVID-19 restrictions? OQ57665
Financial support was available to retail, hospitality, leisure and tourism businesses, alongside the cultural recovery fund and the spectator support fund. To date, over £66.8 million has been offered through these funds. In addition, many businesses are still benefiting from the 100 per cent rates relief holiday, which runs for the entire financial year, unlike, of course, businesses on the English side of the border of your constituency.
Roedd cymorth ariannol ar gael i fusnesau manwerthu, lletygarwch, hamdden a thwristiaeth, ochr yn ochr â'r gronfa adferiad diwylliannol a'r gronfa chwaraeon gwylwyr. Hyd yma, mae dros £66.8 miliwn wedi'i gynnig drwy'r cronfeydd hyn. Yn ogystal, mae llawer o fusnesau'n dal i elwa o'r rhyddhad ardrethi 100 y cant, sy'n parhau am y flwyddyn ariannol gyfan, yn wahanol i fusnesau yn Lloegr, wrth gwrs, dros ffin eich etholaeth.
Thank you, Minister. As you know, the latest COVID support package closed for applications. I've heard from a number of businesses in my constituency who did not meet the criteria for support, whatever the reason, and they're finding themselves now in a perilous position, facing significant financial loss and placing their long-term future in doubt. So, Minister, what long-term support can the Welsh Government offer within the current devolution settlement we currently have to help businesses and help the Welsh economy thrive in the coming months and years? And in relation to the last round of COVID support, can you comment on the take-up of how many businesses accessed that support and the geographical areas where those businesses were based? Diolch, Llywydd.
Diolch, Weinidog. Fel y gwyddoch, mae'r pecyn cymorth COVID diweddaraf wedi cau ar gyfer ceisiadau newydd. Clywais gan nifer o fusnesau yn fy etholaeth nad oeddent yn bodloni'r meini prawf ar gyfer cymorth, beth bynnag fo'r rheswm, ac maent bellach mewn sefyllfa beryglus, yn wynebu colled ariannol sylweddol sy'n peryglu eu dyfodol hirdymor. Felly, Weinidog, pa gymorth hirdymor y gall Llywodraeth Cymru ei gynnig o fewn y setliad datganoli sydd gennym ar hyn o bryd i helpu busnesau a helpu economi Cymru i ffynnu yn y misoedd a'r blynyddoedd i ddod? Ac mewn perthynas â'r rownd ddiwethaf o gymorth COVID, a allwch chi wneud sylwadau ar y nifer o fusnesau a gafodd y cymorth hwnnw a'r ardaloedd daearyddol lle'r oedd y busnesau hynny wedi'u lleoli? Diolch, Lywydd.
So, in the longer term, you will be aware that we have already set out that there'll be rates relief next year. It will match the package on offer in England. You will also be aware that we're having conversations about how we support the future of the economy, but that is in a more challenging position because of the budget settlement we have and because of the reality that shared prosperity funds will see a deficit for Wales of £1 billion over the next few years.
When it comes to how that support has been provided through the latest round of COVID emergency support that we have made available, as with other rounds, once the support has been calculated and the moneys have gone out, we regularly publish where businesses are based and where they have received the money. It's a condition of receiving it that we do make available how that public money has been used. So, every Member will be able to see which businesses have had some support and where they're based as well. I'm looking to try to make that available on an easier to read basis, which may well be on a local authority basis, to set out the number of businesses and the amount of money that has gone in. And it really is dependent upon businesses applying, and applying successfully.
But, I am grateful—and I'll finish here, Llywydd—I'm very grateful to local authorities for the way that they have acted right across Wales in successfully and rapidly providing the non-domestic rates relief that has gone into businesses. I've met businesses in my own constituency who are very complimentary about the speed of that service and the difference that it made to them and their businesses surviving and looking forward to the future.
Felly, yn y tymor hwy, fe fyddwch yn ymwybodol ein bod eisoes wedi nodi y bydd rhyddhad ardrethi y flwyddyn nesaf. Bydd yn cyfateb i'r pecyn sydd ar gael yn Lloegr. Fe fyddwch hefyd yn ymwybodol ein bod yn cael sgyrsiau ynglŷn â sut y cefnogwn ddyfodol yr economi, ond mae honno'n sefyllfa fwy heriol oherwydd y setliad cyllideb sydd gennym ac oherwydd y realiti y bydd cronfeydd ffyniant cyffredin yn gweld diffyg o £1 biliwn i Gymru dros y blynyddoedd nesaf.
O ran sut y darparwyd y cymorth hwnnw drwy'r rownd ddiweddaraf o gymorth brys COVID a ddarparwyd gennym, fel gyda rowndiau eraill, pan fydd y cymorth wedi'i gyfrifo a'r arian wedi mynd allan, rydym yn cyhoeddi'n rheolaidd lle mae busnesau wedi'u lleoli a lle maent wedi derbyn yr arian. Mae'n amod o'i dderbyn ein bod yn cyhoeddi sut y defnyddiwyd yr arian cyhoeddus hwnnw. Felly, bydd pob Aelod yn gallu gweld pa fusnesau sydd wedi cael cymorth a lle maent wedi'u lleoli hefyd. Rwy'n ceisio sicrhau bod hwnnw ar gael ar sail haws ei ddarllen, a allai fod ar sail awdurdod lleol, i nodi nifer y busnesau a'r swm o arian sydd wedi mynd i mewn. Ac mae'n dibynnu ar fusnesau'n gwneud cais, ac yn gwneud cais llwyddiannus.
Ond rwy'n ddiolchgar—ac rwy'n dod i ben yma, Lywydd—rwy'n ddiolchgar iawn i awdurdodau lleol am y ffordd y maent wedi gweithredu ledled Cymru yn darparu'r rhyddhad ardrethi annomestig i fusnesau mewn modd llwyddiannus a chyflym. Rwyf wedi cwrdd â busnesau yn fy etholaeth fy hun sy'n canmol cyflymder y gwasanaeth hwnnw a'r gwahaniaeth a wnaeth iddynt hwy ac i sicrhau bod eu busnesau'n goroesi ac yn edrych tua'r dyfodol.
Diolch i'r Gweinidog.
I thank the Minister.
Yr eitem nesaf, felly, yw'r cwestiynau i'r Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, ac mae'r cwestiwn cyntaf gan Vikki Howells.
The next item, therefore, is questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services, and the first question comes from Vikki Howells.
1. Beth mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud i wella mynediad at ofal meddygol arbenigol yn y gymuned? OQ57660
1. What is the Welsh Government doing to improve access to specialist medical care in the community? OQ57660
Diolch yn fawr, Vikki. We have stated our ambition for the NHS in Wales to be a quality-led service, where the right care is provided at the right time and in the right place. This includes access to care closer to home, where possible, and in specialist centres, where appropriate.
Diolch yn fawr, Vikki. Rydym wedi datgan ein huchelgais i'r GIG yng Nghymru fod yn wasanaeth sy'n cael ei arwain gan ansawdd, lle y darperir y gofal cywir ar yr adeg gywir ac yn y lle cywir. Mae hyn yn cynnwys mynediad at ofal yn nes at y cartref lle y bo hynny'n bosibl, ac mewn canolfannau arbenigol lle y bo'n briodol.
Thank you, Minister. 'No place like home', recently published by the Royal College of Physicians, builds an urgent case for increased investment in intermediate care provided in a patient's home. This can improve the quality of care, reduce admissions to hospital, and also get people back out of hospital and home more quickly. I'd welcome your response to this report and information on how the Welsh Government is working to increase access to this care in the face of the coronavirus pandemic.
Diolch, Weinidog. Mae 'No place like home', a gyhoeddwyd yn ddiweddar gan Goleg Brenhinol y Meddygon, yn adeiladu achos brys dros fuddsoddi mwy mewn gofal canolraddol a ddarperir yng nghartref y claf. Gall hyn wella ansawdd y gofal, lleihau derbyniadau i'r ysbyty, a chael pobl allan o'r ysbyty ac yn ôl adref yn gyflymach. Byddwn yn croesawu eich ymateb i'r adroddiad hwn yn ogystal â gwybodaeth ynglŷn â sut y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn gweithio i gynyddu mynediad at y gofal hwn yn wyneb y pandemig coronafeirws.
Diolch yn fawr, Vikki, and I read the report, 'No place like home', with interest, and I agree with very many of the recommendations and I'm very pleased to say that we're already delivering in many of the areas that have been set out there. There's nobody, I don't think, who is more keen to get people back into their homes when they're ready for discharge from hospitals than I am. I'm very keen to get on with the programme of really addressing the backlog. And, obviously, while we have over 1,000 people in our hospitals waiting for discharge who are ready to get home, then clearly we need to take measures to make sure that's possible.
I'm very pleased to say that, as part of the action that we took in this space over the winter months, we have been holding weekly meetings, both the Deputy Minister Julie Morgan and I, with local government and health boards to try and ease that process of getting people out of hospitals. And you'll be aware that recently we announced £144 million of funding for the regional integration fund over five years, and some of the key themes in that really address the issues that you're interested in, which is basically looking at community-based care, home from hospital care, place-based care and, of course, in addition to that, we have the six goals for the urgent and emergency care handbook that were set out last week, and that is looking at safe alternatives to hospital admissions, a home-first approach and an attempt to reduce that risk of readmission. So, we already have, of course, examples of virtual wards, which have been talked about in that report, and the hospital at home service, and I'm very keen to see those models rolled out more extensively across Wales.
Diolch yn fawr, Vikki, a darllenais yr adroddiad 'No place like home', gyda diddordeb, ac rwy'n cytuno â llawer iawn o'r argymhellion ac yn falch iawn o ddweud ein bod eisoes yn cyflawni mewn llawer o'r meysydd sydd wedi'u nodi yno. Nid wyf yn credu bod neb yn fwy awyddus na mi i gael pobl yn ôl i'w cartrefi pan fyddant yn barod i gael eu rhyddhau o ysbytai. Rwy'n awyddus iawn i fwrw ymlaen o ddifrif â'r rhaglen i fynd i'r afael â'r ôl-groniad. Ac yn amlwg, o gofio bod gennym dros 1,000 o bobl yn ein hysbytai yn aros i gael eu rhyddhau ac yn barod i fynd adref, mae'n amlwg fod angen inni roi camau ar waith i sicrhau bod hynny'n bosibl.
Rwy'n falch iawn o ddweud, fel rhan o'r camau a gymerwyd gennym ar hyn dros fisoedd y gaeaf, ein bod wedi bod yn cynnal cyfarfodydd wythnosol, y Dirprwy Weinidog Julie Morgan a minnau, gyda llywodraeth leol a byrddau iechyd i geisio hwyluso'r broses o ryddhau pobl o ysbytai. Ac fe fyddwch yn ymwybodol ein bod wedi cyhoeddi £144 miliwn o gyllid yn ddiweddar ar gyfer y gronfa integreiddio rhanbarthol dros bum mlynedd, ac mae rhai o'r themâu allweddol yn hynny yn mynd i'r afael â'r problemau y mae gennych ddiddordeb ynddynt, sy'n edrych, yn y bôn, ar ofal yn y gymuned, gofal gartref o'r ysbyty, gofal sy'n seiliedig ar leoedd ac wrth gwrs, yn ogystal â hynny, mae gennym y chwe nod ar gyfer y llawlyfr gofal brys a gofal mewn argyfwng a nodwyd yr wythnos ddiwethaf, ac mae hwnnw'n edrych ar ddewisiadau amgen diogel yn lle derbyn i'r ysbyty, dull cartref yn gyntaf ac ymgais i leihau'r perygl o ddychwelyd i'r ysbyty. Felly, mae gennym eisoes enghreifftiau o wardiau rhithwir, wrth gwrs, y soniwyd amdanynt yn yr adroddiad hwnnw, a'r gwasanaeth ysbyty yn y cartref, ac rwy'n awyddus iawn i weld y modelau hynny'n cael eu cyflwyno'n fwy helaeth ledled Cymru.
The Welsh Government has committed to the World Health Organization target to eliminate hepatitis C as a significant public health threat by 2030 at the latest. However, in other countries of the UK, Governments have set pathways to accelerate the elimination target date ahead of 2030. In England and Northern Ireland it's 2025, and in Scotland, 2024. So, can the Minister confirm that the Welsh Government will review its target date to eliminate hepatitis in Wales by 2030 at the latest and, in so doing, how will she address calls for best practice developed in Wales and other UK nations, such as micro-elimination in Swansea prison and focused peer support programmes, to be harnessed to develop solutions that allow for regional and community variation in approach, with local flexibilities to implement bespoke prevention, test and treatment services in the community—which is what this question is about—and other non-clinical settings, such as drug treatment services, addiction centres and community pharmacies?
Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi ymrwymo i darged Sefydliad Iechyd y Byd i ddileu hepatitis C fel bygythiad sylweddol i iechyd y cyhoedd erbyn 2030 fan bellaf. Fodd bynnag, yng ngwledydd eraill y DU, mae Llywodraethau wedi gosod llwybrau i'w galluogi i osod dyddiad targed i'w ddileu cyn 2030. Yn Lloegr a Gogledd Iwerddon, 2025 yw'r dyddiad, a 2024 yn yr Alban. Felly, a wnaiff y Gweinidog gadarnhau y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn adolygu dyddiad ei tharged i ddileu hepatitis C yng Nghymru erbyn 2030 fan bellaf ac wrth wneud hynny, a wnaiff hi ddweud sut y bydd yn mynd i'r afael â galwadau i ddatblygu arferion gorau yng Nghymru a gwledydd eraill y DU, megis micro-ddileu yng ngharchar Abertawe a rhaglenni cefnogaeth gan gymheiriaid ag iddynt ffocws, i'w harneisio i ddatblygu atebion sy'n caniatáu ar gyfer amrywiadau rhanbarthol a chymunedol o ran y dull o weithredu, gyda hyblygrwydd lleol i weithredu gwasanaethau atal, profi a thrin pwrpasol yn y gymuned—sef hanfod y cwestiwn hwn—a lleoliadau anghlinigol eraill, megis gwasanaethau triniaeth cyffuriau, canolfannau caethiwed a fferyllfeydd cymunedol?
Thanks very much, Mark, and certainly, I'm very interested in the issue of hepatitis C, which, of course, is a very long-term condition that many people have to live with. I'm very pleased to agree to take a look at whether there's any possibility of moving that target date. Clearly, the sooner we can eliminate this situation, the better, so I will undertake to have another look to see if there are any means of pulling that date forward.FootnoteLink
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Mark, ac yn sicr, mae gennyf ddiddordeb mawr ym mater hepatitis C, sydd, wrth gwrs, yn gyflwr hirdymor y mae'n rhaid i lawer o bobl fyw gydag ef. Rwy'n falch iawn o gytuno i ystyried a oes unrhyw bosibilrwydd o newid y dyddiad targed hwnnw. Yn amlwg, gorau po gyntaf y gallwn ddileu'r clefyd hwn, felly rwy'n ymrwymo i gael golwg arall i weld a oes unrhyw ffordd o bennu dyddiad cynharach.FootnoteLink
Gweinidog, cyn i fi holi fy nghwestiwn i, welais i'r bore yma ar Politico ei bod hi'n ben-blwydd arnoch chi a Peter Hain, felly pen-blwydd hapus iawn i chi. Pa ffordd well i ddathlu nag ateb cwestiynau fan hyn yn y Senedd?
Gweinidog, un o gonglfeini gofal meddygol yn ein cymunedau yw meddygon teulu, a dwi'n gwybod bod chi'n ymwybodol iawn o gonsérn nifer o gymunedau fel Pentyrch yng ngogledd y ddinas, sy'n pryderu eu bod nhw'n colli'r feddygfa leol. Ac un o'r dadleuon sy'n cael eu defnyddio gyda’r cymunedau yma yw y bydd yna ganolfan newydd, sawl milltir i ffwrdd, yn gallu cynnig y gwasanaethau arbenigol y maen nhw eu hangen. Ond ydych chi'n cytuno â fi, Gweinidog, cyn bod unrhyw gymuned yn colli'r ddarpariaeth iechyd lleol, fod angen ymgynghoriad llawn, tryloyw a manwl, a bod angen rhesymau clir a chadarn i wneud hynny? Diolch yn fawr.
Minister, before I ask my question, I saw this morning on Politico that it's your birthday and Peter Hain's birthday as well, so happy birthday to you. What better way to celebrate than answering questions here in the Senedd?
Minister, one of the cornerstones of medical care in our communities is GPs, of course, and I know that you're very aware of the concern in a number of communities such as Pentyrch in the north of the city, that are concerned that they're losing their local surgery. And one of the arguments that are used with these communities is that there will be a new centre, several miles away, that will be able to provide the specialist services that they need. But do you agree with me, Minister, that before any community loses that local health provision we need a full, transparent and detailed consultation, and there needs to be a clear and robust rationale for doing that? Thank you.
Diolch yn fawr. Ydy, mae'n ben-blwydd arnaf i a Peter Hain, a John Taylor o Duran Duran hefyd. [Chwerthin.] Ac Amanda Holden dwi'n deall hefyd, so dwi mewn cwmni da.
Jest o ran yr ymgynghoriad ar y feddygfa ym Mhentyrch, dwi wedi derbyn referral ar 17 Ionawr yn sôn am y sefyllfa yma, a dwi wedi derbyn llythyr gan y BILl ynglŷn â hyn. Wrth gwrs, mae'n rhaid i ni sicrhau bod y system yn un dryloyw. Bydd y broses yn cario ymlaen nes bod gan Weinidogion Llywodraeth Cymru y wybodaeth i gyd fel ein bod ni'n gallu dod i benderfyniad sydd yn glir ac yn deg. Wrth gwrs, mae grwpiau cymunedol yn yr ardal hefyd wedi cael gwybod bod cyfle ganddyn nhw hefyd i wneud unrhyw fath o representations sydd eisiau arnyn nhw.
Thank you very much. Yes, it is my birthday, as it is Peter Hain's and John Taylor from Duran Duran. [Laughter.] And Amanda Holden too, I understand, so I'm in very good company.
Just in terms of the consultation on the surgery in Pentyrch, I have received a referral on 17 January covering this particular situation, and I've also received a letter from the LHB on this whole issue. Of course, we do have to ensure that the system is transparent. The process will be ongoing until Government Ministers have all of the information so that we can come to a decision that is clear and fair. Of course, community groups in the area have also been informed that they too have an opportunity to make any representations that they would like to make.
2. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am ddarparu gwasanaethau yn ardal Bwrdd Iechyd Prifysgol Hywel Dda yn y dyfodol? OQ57631
2. Will the Minister make a statement on the future delivery of services in the Hywel Dda University Health Board area? OQ57631
Diolch yn fawr. Cynllunio ar gyfer parhau i ddarparu gwasanaethau hanfodol ac allweddol, ynghyd â gofalu am gleifion sydd wedi eu heffeithio gan COVID-19, a gweithio hefyd tuag at gyflenwi gwasanaethau ehangach, mwy rheolaidd, pan fydd yn ddiogel i wneud hynny, yw'r flaenoriaeth wrth gyflenwi gwasanaethau iechyd yn ardal Hywel Dda.
Thank you very much. The priority for delivering health services in the Hywel Dda area is planning for the continued provision of essential and key services, alongside caring for patients affected by COVID-19, and also working towards the delivery of wider, more routine, services when it is safe to do so.
Minister, last time I raised the delivery of health services with you, you responded with a political rant, but the people that both you and I represent have genuine concerns about local health services, and so I hope this time you'll choose to respond in a much more measured way.
Now, as you're aware, Hywel Dda University Health Board has recently submitted proposals that include repurposing or rebuilding Withybush General Hospital, whatever that means, and I know that you've also been receiving e-mails recently on this issue from worried residents in Pembrokeshire. People are worried that they will have to travel further afield for life-saving services and, as you know, the golden hour is critical in saving people's lives. Therefore, it's absolutely crucial that Withybush hospital retains its emergency services and that the hospital is not downgraded going forwards. So, Minister, will you work with me, and indeed others, to ensure that emergency services stay in Pembrokeshire for the future?
Weinidog, y tro diwethaf imi ddwyn darpariaeth y gwasanaethau iechyd i'ch sylw, fe wnaethoch ymateb drwy refru gwleidyddol, ond mae gan y bobl rydych chi a minnau'n eu cynrychioli bryderon gwirioneddol am wasanaethau iechyd lleol, ac felly rwy'n gobeithio y byddwch yn dewis ymateb mewn ffordd lawer mwy pwyllog y tro hwn.
Nawr, fel y gwyddoch, mae Bwrdd Iechyd Prifysgol Hywel Dda wedi cyflwyno cynigion yn ddiweddar sy'n cynnwys addasu Ysbyty Cyffredinol Llwynhelyg at ddibenion gwahanol neu ei ailadeiladu, beth bynnag y bo hynny'n ei olygu, a gwn eich bod chithau hefyd wedi bod yn cael negeseuon e-bost yn ddiweddar ar y mater hwn gan drigolion pryderus yn sir Benfro. Mae pobl yn poeni y bydd yn rhaid iddynt deithio ymhellach am wasanaethau sy'n achub bywyd ac fel y gwyddoch, mae'r awr aur yn hanfodol i achub bywydau pobl. Felly, mae'n gwbl hanfodol fod Ysbyty Llwynhelyg yn cadw ei wasanaethau brys ac nad yw'r ysbyty'n cael ei israddio yn y dyfodol. Felly, Weinidog, a wnewch chi weithio gyda mi, a chydag eraill yn wir, i sicrhau bod y gwasanaethau brys yn aros yn sir Benfro ar gyfer y dyfodol?
Llywydd, of course I am more than anxious to listen to the genuine concerns of local people in relation to any developments in the Hywel Dda health board area, and of course, the decision ultimately in terms of configuration is one for Hywel Dda and it will be presented to the Welsh Government.
I would be grateful if you could have a little word with the Secretary of State for Wales to cool down his rhetoric. You talk to me about whipping up political rhetoric; I'm afraid that when he's sending out letters to people, whipping up feelings, telling people that the health Minister has an office in the local area, I don't think that is something for this time and place, when there is a situation where really we're in quite a frenzied atmosphere at the moment. I would be grateful if you could ask him to tone down the political rhetoric on his part.
The reality is that it's the Welsh Labour Government who've been committed to maintaining essential services at Withybush in line with the advice from clinicians and experts. I'd like to make it clear once again that there are no current plans to remove any service from Withybush prior to the opening of any potential new planned or urgent care hospital in west Wales. That decision will not be my decision. I think it's really important that you understand that as well. That will be a decision for somebody else, because, obviously, I represent that area. But I would remind you that the services have changed over the years, because that's been the recommendation of the royal colleges at the time.
Let's not forget also how fragile some of those services in Withybush have been over the years. The recruitment and retention of staff, due to the changing labour markets and the aspirations of clinicians, who choose, very often, to work in larger hospital settings, of course, have impacted on rural hospitals. It's been this Government that's provided millions of pounds of support to accident and emergency in Withybush, when the health board was reliant solely on agency staff to fill those rotas. At one time, it was the most expensive A&E department in the whole of Wales. So, I don't think you can accuse the Labour Government of not standing by the A&E department in Withybush. The Welsh Government didn't turn its back on Withybush then, and, as I've said time and again, Withybush will remain an important asset in the delivery of healthcare for the population of Pembrokeshire. But we must also look to the future. So, repeating the same old fears, repeating tribal arguments and pitting Pembrokeshire against Carmarthenshire is doing a disservice to patients. I'm sure that his constituents, and mine, will expect and deserve the best healthcare that we can provide.
Lywydd, rwy'n fwy na pharod, wrth gwrs, i wrando ar bryderon gwirioneddol pobl leol mewn perthynas ag unrhyw ddatblygiadau yn ardal bwrdd iechyd Hywel Dda, ac wrth gwrs, penderfyniad i Hywel Dda yn y pen draw yw'r cyfluniad a chaiff ei gyflwyno i Lywodraeth Cymru.
Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe gallech gael gair bach gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru i dawelu ei rethreg. Rydych yn sôn wrthyf am rethreg wleidyddol, ac mae arnaf ofn, pan fo'n anfon llythyrau at bobl, yn corddi teimladau, yn dweud wrth bobl fod gan y Gweinidog iechyd swyddfa yn yr ardal leol, nid wyf yn credu mai dyma'r lle cywir na'r amser cywir i hynny, pan ydym mewn sefyllfa lle mae'r awyrgylch yn eithaf gorffwyll ar hyn o bryd. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe gallech ofyn iddo dawelu ei rethreg wleidyddol.
Y gwir amdani yw mai Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru sydd wedi ymrwymo i gynnal gwasanaethau hanfodol yn Llwynhelyg yn unol â'r cyngor gan glinigwyr ac arbenigwyr. Hoffwn ei gwneud yn glir unwaith eto nad oes unrhyw gynlluniau ar hyn o bryd i gael gwared ar unrhyw wasanaeth o Llwynhelyg cyn agor unrhyw ysbyty arfaethedig newydd, boed yn ofal brys neu'n ofal wedi'i gynllunio, yng ngorllewin Cymru. Nid fy mhenderfyniad i fydd y penderfyniad hwnnw. Rwy'n credu ei bod yn bwysig iawn eich bod yn deall hynny hefyd. Bydd hwnnw'n benderfyniad i rywun arall, oherwydd, yn amlwg, rwy'n cynrychioli'r ardal honno. Ond hoffwn eich atgoffa bod y gwasanaethau wedi newid dros y blynyddoedd, oherwydd dyna oedd argymhelliad y colegau brenhinol ar y pryd.
Gadewch inni beidio ag anghofio hefyd pa mor fregus yw rhai o'r gwasanaethau hynny yn Llwynhelyg wedi bod dros y blynyddoedd. Mae mater recriwtio a chadw staff, oherwydd y marchnadoedd llafur newidiol a dyheadau clinigwyr, sy'n dewis gweithio mewn ysbytai mwy o faint yn aml iawn, wedi effeithio ar ysbytai gwledig wrth gwrs. Y Llywodraeth hon sydd wedi darparu miliynau o bunnoedd o gymorth i'r adran ddamweiniau ac achosion brys yn Llwynhelyg, pan oedd y bwrdd iechyd yn dibynnu'n llwyr ar staff asiantaeth i lenwi'r rotas hynny. Ar un adeg, hon oedd yr adran ddamweiniau ac achosion brys ddrutaf yng Nghymru gyfan. Felly, nid wyf yn credu y gallwch gyhuddo'r Llywodraeth Lafur o beidio â chefnogi'r adran ddamweiniau ac achosion brys yn Llwynhelyg. Ni throdd Llywodraeth Cymru ei chefn ar Llwynhelyg bryd hynny, ac fel y dywedais dro ar ôl tro, bydd Llwynhelyg yn parhau i fod yn ased pwysig i ddarparu gofal iechyd i boblogaeth sir Benfro. Ond mae'n rhaid inni hefyd edrych tua'r dyfodol. Felly, mae ailadrodd yr un hen ofnau, ailadrodd dadleuon llwythol a gosod sir Benfro yn erbyn sir Gaerfyrddin yn gwneud cam â chleifion. Rwy'n siŵr y bydd ei etholwyr ef, a fy rhai innau, yn disgwyl ac yn haeddu'r gofal iechyd gorau y gallwn ei ddarparu.
Do you agree with me, Minister, that the future of health services in our region is in need of a genuine discussion, and that politicians should help solve systematic challenges, like how to attract and retain staff and how to deliver as many of the services as possible as close to home and where people live? It would be more useful, rather than simply obstructing change and investment that our constituents deserve, to instead engage in useful, constructive dialogue and engagement with all concerned, including the local health board, the providers and indeed, most of all, the people who rely on sustained and reliable health services. You've already outlined some of the challenges that are faced annually in the local health board area. It's time to get real now and have a genuine discussion about where we are, where we go, and what people need. I really hope, Minister, and I'm sure you will agree with me, that people take part in a measured discussion rather than simply, and I have to agree with you, pointing people towards where your office is, especially in this day and age—it's an absolutely dangerous practice.
A ydych yn cytuno â mi, Weinidog, fod angen trafodaeth onest ar ddyfodol gwasanaethau iechyd yn ein rhanbarth, ac y dylai gwleidyddion helpu i ddatrys heriau systematig, megis sut i ddenu a chadw staff a sut i ddarparu cymaint o’r gwasanaethau mor agos i'r cartref a lle mae pobl yn byw â phosibl? Yn hytrach na rhwystro'r newid a'r buddsoddiad y mae ein hetholwyr yn ei haeddu, byddai’n fwy defnyddiol ymgysylltu a chael sgwrs ddefnyddiol ac adeiladol â phawb dan sylw, gan gynnwys y bwrdd iechyd lleol, y darparwyr, ac yn wir, yn bennaf oll, y bobl sy’n dibynnu ar wasanaethau iechyd parhaus a dibynadwy. Rydych eisoes wedi amlinellu rhai o’r heriau a wynebir yn flynyddol yn ardal y bwrdd iechyd lleol. Mae’n bryd bod yn realistig yn awr a chael trafodaeth onest am ein sefyllfa ar hyn o bryd, i ba gyfeiriad yr awn iddo a beth sydd ei angen ar bobl. Rwy’n mawr obeithio, Weinidog, ac rwy’n siŵr y byddwch yn cytuno â mi, y bydd pobl yn cymryd rhan mewn trafodaeth bwyllog yn hytrach na chyfeirio pobl at eich swyddfa, yn enwedig yn yr oes sydd ohoni—mae'n arfer peryglus iawn.
Thanks very much, Joyce. I think you're absolutely right; we need a far deeper public conversation about what we want and how the whole range of health services will work, not just for the people of Pembrokeshire, but for Carmarthenshire and for Ceredigion in the years ahead. We haven't had that deeper conversation over the years, because some people have been caught up in the location of buildings rather than focusing our efforts on maximising our resources for the benefit of patients. There's a whole new philosophy that is being developed here. It's about care in the community as far as possible. Of course, Withybush doesn't exist on its own. It is, and will continue to be, part of a network of hospitals that provide health and care for our communities, whether that programme business case goes ahead or not.
Diolch yn fawr, Joyce. Credaf eich bod yn llygad eich lle, mae arnom angen sgwrs gyhoeddus fwy dwfn o lawer am ein dymuniadau a sut y bydd yr ystod gyfan o wasanaethau iechyd yn gweithio, nid yn unig i bobl sir Benfro, ond i bobl sir Gaerfyrddin a Cheredigion yn y blynyddoedd i ddod. Nid ydym wedi cael y sgwrs fwy dwfn honno dros y blynyddoedd, am fod rhai pobl wedi canolbwyntio ar leoliad adeiladau yn hytrach na chanolbwyntio ein hymdrechion ar sicrhau bod gennym cymaint â phosibl o adnoddau er budd cleifion. Mae athroniaeth gwbl newydd yn cael ei datblygu yma. Mae'n ymwneud â gofal yn y gymuned cyn belled ag y bo modd. Wrth gwrs, nid yw Ysbyty Llwynhelyg yn bodoli ar ei ben ei hun. Mae'n rhan, a bydd yn parhau i fod yn rhan, o rwydwaith o ysbytai sy’n darparu iechyd a gofal i’n cymunedau, boed achos busnes y rhaglen honno’n mynd rhagddo ai peidio.
Cwestiynau nawr gan lefarwyr y pleidiau. Llefarydd y Ceidwadwyr, Gareth Davies, i'w ateb gan y Dirprwy Weinidog Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol.
Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Gareth Davies, to be answered by the Deputy Minister for Social Services.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. I'd like to start by wishing the health Minister a very happy birthday. I didn't know until the Member for South Wales Central mentioned it earlier. So, I wish you a very happy twenty-first birthday. [Laughter.]
But my questions are directed to the Deputy Minister for Social Services, so I'll start by asking the Deputy Minister: what does the integration of health and social care look like to you?
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Lywydd. Hoffwn ddechrau drwy ddymuno pen-blwydd hapus iawn i’r Gweinidog iechyd. Nid oeddwn yn gwybod nes i’r Aelod dros Ganol De Cymru grybwyll y peth yn gynharach. Felly, rwy'n dymuno pen-blwydd hapus iawn i chi yn un ar hugain. [Chwerthin.]
Ond mae fy nghwestiynau ar gyfer y Dirprwy Weinidog Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, felly fe ddechreuaf drwy ofyn i’r Dirprwy Weinidog: sut y mae integreiddio iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol yn edrych i chi?
I thank Gareth Davies for that question. The integration of health and social care is something that we are working very hard to reach. Our regional partnership boards are where we are putting this into practice, where we have the health authorities and the local government authorities working together to come up with proposals that are totally integrated. It's also very important to remember that when we talk about an integrated service, there are other services that are very important as well. For example, on the RPBs, we have housing represented, and we have citizens represented, and unpaid carers represented. My vision of an integrated health and social care service is where you can move seamlessly between the two services, and where there are organisations like the regional partnership boards that are able to plan on an integrated basis.
Diolch i Gareth Davies am ei gwestiwn. Mae integreiddio iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol yn rhywbeth yr ydym yn gweithio’n galed iawn i’w gyflawni. Rydym yn rhoi hyn ar waith yn ein byrddau partneriaeth rhanbarthol, lle mae gennym yr awdurdodau iechyd a’r awdurdodau llywodraeth leol yn gweithio gyda’i gilydd ar lunio cynigion sy’n gwbl integredig. Mae hefyd yn bwysig iawn cofio, pan fyddwn yn sôn am wasanaeth integredig, fod yna wasanaethau eraill pwysig iawn hefyd. Er enghraifft, ar y byrddau partneriaeth rhanbarthol, ceir cynrychiolaeth o'r maes tai, caiff dinasyddion eu cynrychioli, a chaiff gofalwyr di-dâl eu cynrychioli. Mae fy ngweledigaeth am wasanaeth iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol integredig yn un lle y gallwch symud yn ddi-dor rhwng y ddau wasanaeth, a lle y ceir sefydliadau fel y byrddau partneriaeth rhanbarthol sy’n gallu cynllunio ar sail integredig.
I'm grateful for that answer, Deputy Minister. I agree to some level that, in an ideal world, that would be the case, but sadly, we've still got a long way to go. Perhaps the prime reason to integrate health and care is to ensure the best health and well-being outcomes for Welsh citizens, because at the moment we are totally failing at that aim. We are all too painfully aware of this crisis in social care and the impact it's having on not just the care sector but right across health and care. DTOCs, or delayed transfers of care, mean that there are fewer beds for new patients, putting strain on an already overburdened system. As evidence to the health committee has highlighted, this is sadly leading to deaths. According to the Royal College of Emergency Medicine, delays over eight hours in A&E could have contributed to as many as 2,000 unnecessary deaths. How do you plan to ensure that an integrated approach to discharge happens on every hospital ward across Wales?
Diolch am eich ateb, Ddirprwy Weinidog. Rwy'n cytuno i raddau, mewn byd delfrydol, mai dyna fyddai’r sefyllfa, ond yn anffodus, mae gennym lawer o ffordd i fynd o hyd. Efallai mai’r prif reswm dros integreiddio iechyd a gofal yw sicrhau’r canlyniadau iechyd a llesiant gorau i ddinasyddion Cymru, oherwydd ar hyn o bryd, rydym yn methu cyflawni’r nod hwnnw yn llwyr. Mae pob un ohonom yn boenus o ymwybodol o'r argyfwng mewn gofal cymdeithasol a'r effaith y mae'n ei chael nid yn unig ar y sector gofal ond ar draws iechyd a gofal. Mae oedi wrth drosglwyddo gofal yn golygu bod llai o welyau ar gael ar gyfer cleifion newydd, ac mae hynny'n creu straen i system sydd eisoes dan ormod o bwysau. Fel y mae'r dystiolaeth i’r pwyllgor iechyd wedi’i amlygu, yn anffodus, mae hyn yn arwain at farwolaethau. Yn ôl y Coleg Brenhinol Meddygaeth Frys, fe allai cyfnodau o oedi dros wyth awr mewn adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys fod wedi cyfrannu at hyd at 2,000 o farwolaethau diangen. Sut ydych chi'n bwriadu sicrhau bod dull integredig o ryddhau cleifion ar waith ar bob ward ysbyty ledled Cymru?
Gareth Davies highlights a crucial point. There is no way that the health service will flourish unless the social care system is operating to its maximum. The reason why over 1,000 people who are medically fit to be discharged are not able to be discharged is, to a large extent, because there is not the domiciliary support in their own homes for them to manage at home, and there aren't enough spaces in care homes, where there aren't enough staff to look after them. Because of that, they're totally interlinked, and that's why we are working so closely together, the Minister for Health and Social Services and myself as the Deputy Minister for social care—because these two elements are totally linked, and what happens in the social care service impacts in the hospitals.
We've been meeting every week in an action committee, with the local health boards and with the local authorities, and we've come up with a huge range of proposals in order to get people home more quickly, to try to ensure that they receive the support in some way or another when they do go home. We've also made, as you know from the announcement I made yesterday, big efforts in order to increase the social care workforce. So, we are working very hard to ensure that there is an improvement, and he makes an important point on how linked these two areas of service are.
Mae Gareth Davies yn tynnu sylw at bwynt hollbwysig. Nid oes unrhyw ffordd y bydd y gwasanaeth iechyd yn ffynnu oni bai fod y system gofal cymdeithasol yn gweithredu hyd eithaf ei gallu. I raddau helaeth, y rheswm pam nad oes modd rhyddhau dros 1,000 o bobl sy’n ffit yn feddygol o'r ysbyty yw nad oes cymorth cartref yn eu cartrefi eu hunain iddynt allu ymdopi gartref, ac nid oes digon o lefydd ar gael mewn cartrefi gofal, lle nad oes digon o staff i ofalu amdanynt. Oherwydd hynny, maent yn gwbl gysylltiedig â’i gilydd, a dyna pam ein bod yn cydweithio mor agos, y Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a minnau fel y Dirprwy Weinidog gofal cymdeithasol—gan fod y ddwy elfen yn gwbl gysylltiedig â'i gilydd, ac mae’r hyn sy’n digwydd yn y gwasanaeth gofal cymdeithasol yn cael effaith ar yr ysbytai.
Rydym wedi bod yn cyfarfod bob wythnos mewn pwyllgor gweithredu, gyda’r byrddau iechyd lleol a chyda’r awdurdodau lleol, ac rydym wedi llunio ystod enfawr o gynigion er mwyn sicrhau bod pobl yn mynd adref yn gynt, i geisio sicrhau eu bod yn cael cymorth mewn rhyw ffordd neu'i gilydd pan fyddant yn mynd adref. Rydym hefyd, fel y gwyddoch o’r cyhoeddiad a wneuthum ddoe, wedi gwneud ymdrech fawr i gynyddu maint y gweithlu gofal cymdeithasol. Felly, rydym yn gweithio’n galed iawn i sicrhau gwelliant, ac mae’n gwneud pwynt pwysig ynghylch pa mor gysylltiedig yw’r ddau faes gwasanaeth hyn.
Thank you again, Deputy Minister. Of course, if we're truly to get to grips with discharges, we need to get on top of DTOCs. We not only have to get health and housing all pulling in the same direction, we first have to truly understand the scale of the problem, and the data is spotty at best. It was before the pandemic, and has got even worse. Different departments in the same hospital can use different criteria for what constitutes a DTOC. We know from the Minister that NHS Wales believes that around 1,000 patients are medically fit for discharge, yet are confined to an acute hospital bed, but we don't truly know if that's just the tip of the iceberg. Deputy Minister, how do you plan to get health and social care working together to ensure we have up-to-date accurate data on DTOCs and the reasons for delayed discharges?
Diolch eto, Ddirprwy Weinidog. Wrth gwrs, os ydym o ddifrif am fynd i'r afael â rhyddhau pobl o’r ysbyty, mae angen inni fynd i'r afael ag oedi wrth drosglwyddo gofal. Nid yn unig y mae angen inni sicrhau bod iechyd a thai yn tynnu i'r un cyfeiriad, ond yn gyntaf, mae'n rhaid inni ddeall yn iawn beth yw maint y broblem, ac mae'r data'n dameidiog ar y gorau. Roedd felly cyn y pandemig, ac mae wedi mynd yn waeth byth. Gall gwahanol adrannau yn yr un ysbyty ddefnyddio meini prawf gwahanol ar gyfer yr hyn sy'n oedi wrth drosglwyddo gofal. Gwyddom gan y Gweinidog fod GIG Cymru yn credu bod oddeutu 1,000 o gleifion yn feddygol ffit i gael eu rhyddhau, ond yn parhau i fod mewn gwelyau ysbyty acíwt, ond nid ydym yn gwybod yn iawn ai pigyn y rhewfryn yn unig yw hynny ai peidio. Ddirprwy Weinidog, sut y bwriadwch gael iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol i weithio gyda’i gilydd i sicrhau bod gennym ddata cywir a chyfredol am achosion o oedi wrth drosglwyddo gofal a’r rhesymau dros oedi wrth ryddhau cleifion?
We are developing our services' data and we are analysing why those over 1,000 people are detained in hospital when they shouldn't be there. In the vast majority, the reason for it is because they haven't got the help from the social care services, but there are other reasons as well. For example, communications is a big issue. There are delays sometimes for things like medication. There are lots of delays, and we are in the process of analysing that data. But, again, I think Gareth Davies makes an important point that we do need that information in order to plan in a productive way.
Rydym yn datblygu data ein gwasanaethau ac yn dadansoddi pam fod y mwy na 1,000 o bobl hynny’n cael eu cadw yn yr ysbyty pan na ddylent fod yno. Yn y rhan fwyaf o achosion, y rheswm am hyn yw nad ydynt yn cael cymorth gan y gwasanaethau gofal cymdeithasol, ond mae rhesymau eraill hefyd. Er enghraifft, mae cyfathrebu'n broblem fawr. Mae oedi weithiau ar gyfer pethau fel meddyginiaeth. Ceir llawer o oedi, ac rydym wrthi’n dadansoddi’r data hwnnw. Ond unwaith eto, credaf fod Gareth Davies yn gwneud pwynt pwysig fod angen yr wybodaeth honno arnom er mwyn cynllunio mewn ffordd gynhyrchiol.
Llefarydd Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.
Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Dwi wedi digalonni eto heddiw yn edrych ar ddata amseroedd aros iechyd. Ffigurau aros am apwyntiad cyntaf CAMHS welais i heddiw, yn dangos mai dim ond 22 y cant sy'n cael apwyntiad o fewn pedair wythnos, y lefel isaf erioed, pan oedd o'n 75 y cant flwyddyn yn ôl. Yfory, rydym ni'n disgwyl ffigurau iechyd ehangach, yn cynnwys amseroedd aros ambiwlans, sy'n dangos fwy nag unrhyw beth o bosib sut mae llif cleifion drwy'r system iechyd a gofal wedi arafu i stop, mae'n ymddangos, bron. Mae targed y gwasanaeth ambiwlans o gyrraedd y cleifion mwyaf sâl o fewn wyth munud mewn 65 y cant o achosion wedi cael ei fethu ers blwyddyn a hanner. Pa bryd mae'r Gweinidog yn disgwyl i'r gwasanaeth ambiwlans allu cyrraedd y targed? Achos mae bob diwrnod, bob wythnos, bob mis o fethu â chyrraedd y targed yn rhoi bywydau mewn peryg.
Thank you very much, Llywydd. I have become disheartened once again looking today at waiting times for health appointments. It was CAMHS appointments that I saw today, showing that only 22 per cent receive an appointment within four weeks, the lowest level ever, when it was 75 per cent a year ago. Tomorrow, we're expecting broader health statistics, including ambulance waiting times, which show more than anything perhaps how patient flow through the health and care system has almost come to a stop. The target for the ambulance service of reaching the most at risk patients within eight minutes in 65 per cent of cases has been missed for a year and a half. When does the Minister expect the ambulance service to reach the target? Because every day, every week, every month of failing to reach a target puts lives at risk.
Diolch yn fawr, Rhun. Roeddwn i'n gobeithio y byddech chi yn garedig i fi heddiw, ar fy mhen-blwydd i, ond mae hwnna'n gwestiwn teg ac mae'n gwestiwn anodd, ac mae yn gwestiwn dwi'n poeni'n fawr ynglŷn ag e. Mae amseroedd aros ambiwlansys lot yn rhy araf, a dyna pam ges i gyfarfod ddoe gyda'r gwasanaeth ambiwlans. Dwi wedi cael cyfarfod heddiw gyda phennaeth EASC, sy'n gyfrifol am sicrhau bod y gwaith rhwng y gwasanaeth ambiwlans a'r byrddau iechyd a'r sector gofal i gyd yn cydweithio, achos mae'n rhaid inni ddeall bod hwn yn system. Felly, rydym ni wedi taflu lot o arian at y gwasanaeth ambiwlans, rydym ni wedi rhoi lot mwy o adnoddau iddyn nhw ac maen nhw wedi recriwtio lot fawr yn fwy o bobl. Mae e wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth. Rydym ni wedi gweld bod tua 11 y cant o bobl nawr ddim yn cael eu cymryd i'r ysbyty o ganlyniad i'r triage gwell sy'n digwydd.
Ond dyw hi ddim yn ddigon, ac mae'r amseroedd aros yn anfaddeuol. Dyna pam dwi wedi bod yn gofyn heddiw a ddoe ynglŷn â beth mwy gallwn ni ei wneud. Achos os rydym ni jest yn rhoi mwy o arian i'r gwasanaeth ambiwlans, beth welwn ni efallai yw mwy o ambiwlansys tu fas i'r ysbytai. Wel, dyw hwnna ddim yn helpu. Efallai ei fod yn ein helpu ni i gyrraedd pobl yn ein cymunedau, ond dyw e ddim yn helpu'r llif. Felly, mae'n rhaid inni gael hefyd y byrddau iechyd i gymryd eu cyfrifoldeb nhw o ddifrif. Maen nhw wedi dweud eu bod nhw eisiau gweld pobl yn dod mas o'r ambiwlansys o fewn pedair awr. Dyw hynny ddim yn digwydd, ac felly mae angen mwy o bwysau arnyn nhw. Beth rydym ni'n trio ei weld nawr yw beth yn union yn fwy gallwn ni wneud i efallai creu incentive neu rywbeth fel ein bod ni ddim yn cario ymlaen yn y sefyllfa yma, achos mae'r rhestrau lot yn rhy hir.
Thank you very much, Rhun. I hoped you'd be kind to me today on my birthday, but that is a fair question. It is a difficult question to answer, and it's a question I'm very concerned about. The waiting times for ambulances are far too long, and that's why I had a meeting yesterday with the ambulance services trust. I'm having a meeting today with the head of the emergency ambulance services committee, which is responsible for ensuring that the work between the ambulance service and the health board and the care sector is co-ordinated, because we have to understand that this is one system. So, we've allocated a great deal of funding towards the ambulance service. We've provided them with many more resources. They've come forward and they've recruited far more people. It has made a difference. We've seen that around 11 per cent of people now aren't taken to hospital as a result of the better triage that happens.
But it isn't enough, and the waiting times are unforgivable. That is why I have been asking today and yesterday about what more we can do. Because if we just allocate more funding to the ambulance service what we we will see perhaps is more ambulances outside our hospitals. It might help us to reach people in our communities, but it doesn't help up with the flow of patients. So, we have to get the health boards to take their responsibility seriously. They have said that they want to see people coming out of ambulances within four hours. That isn't happening, so we need to put a greater pressure on them. What we're trying to see now is what more exactly we can do to provide that incentive or something so that we don't continue with this situation, because the waiting times are far too long.
Yn sicr, maen nhw'n rhy hir, ac mae yna bobl tu ôl i bob ystadegyn, wrth gwrs. Rydw i, a fy nghyd-Aelodau ar y meinciau yma, wedi bod yn casglu tystiolaeth am effaith y creisis ambiwlans.
Certainly, they are, and there are people behind every statistic. I, and others on these benches, have been gathering evidence about the impact of the ambulance crisis.
The stories that we hear are frightening: an 89-year-old woman collapsed and lying on the floor for six hours; a farming accident with no ambulance being available at all, so the patient is taken by car with a broken back; a wheelchair-dependent patient suffering a fracture being told to wait three days because it's non-urgent; a woman whose symptoms were deemed to require an emergency response waiting nine hours and an ambulance arriving as her heart stopped. Now, as the Minister says, this is not perhaps an ambulance crisis; it's a whole-system crisis, it's a system that is clogged up, and nobody is angrier about the situation that paramedics and ambulance staff, and our thanks to them is immeasurable. But, let me tell you what I was told by a senior GP recently. They said, 'If I had a family member who required urgent care, I wouldn't even think of calling 999, they'd be straight in the car. If we wanted an ambulance in Wales tonight, there probably wouldn't be one. This doesn't seem like a developed country'. What kind of country are we and when will the penny drop about the need to sort it out if even GPs are saying that we can't help those in most serious need of help?
Mae’r straeon a glywn yn ddychrynllyd: gwraig 89 oed yn llewygu ac yn gorwedd ar y llawr am chwe awr; damwain ffermio heb unrhyw ambiwlans o gwbl ar gael, felly caiff claf sydd wedi torri ei gefn ei gludo mewn car; claf sy'n ddibynnol ar gadair olwyn ac sydd wedi torri asgwrn yn clywed bod angen aros tri diwrnod gan nad yw'n achos brys; menyw yr ystyrid bod ei symptomau'n galw am ymateb brys yn aros am naw awr, ac ambiwlans yn cyrraedd wrth i'w chalon stopio. Nawr, fel y dywed y Gweinidog, nid argyfwng ambiwlans yw hwn, o bosibl, mae'n argyfwng system gyfan, system wedi'i llethu, ac nid oes unrhyw un yn fwy dig ynghylch y sefyllfa na pharafeddygon a staff ambiwlans, ac mae ein diolch iddynt hwy yn anfesuradwy. Ond gadewch imi ddweud wrthych yr hyn a ddywedodd uwch feddyg teulu wrthyf yn ddiweddar. 'Pe bai gennyf aelod o'r teulu a oedd angen gofal brys,' meddai, 'ni fyddwn hyd yn oed yn ystyried ffonio 999, byddent yn mynd i mewn i'r car yn syth. Pe baem angen ambiwlans yng Nghymru heno, mae’n debyg na fyddai un ar gael. Nid yw hon yn teimlo fel gwlad ddatblygedig'. Pa fath o wlad ydym ni, a phryd y deellir yr angen i ddatrys y broblem os yw hyd yn oed meddygon teulu yn dweud na allwn helpu'r rheini sydd fwyaf o angen cymorth?
I accept that there is a problem. The demand on the service has been enormous. The increase in demand on the service is more than anything we've seen before, so obviously there is a demand aspect to this that also needs to be looked at. I think also we've got to understand that actually over half of people are seen within the time frame, so it's not all bad, but of course we're not reaching anything like the targets that we should be reaching. One of the things that's happened this week is that there was a national risk summit to look at what harms are happening as a consequence of this, so that people start to understand this is not something where there are no consequences; there are serious consequences and therefore people need to understand that they need to step up and take more responsibility. So, that happened this week, as well. There will be outcomes as a result of that summit, so I'm just waiting to hear exactly what's happening. So, of course the situation needs some focus, which is why I'm giving it that focus. We've invested £5 million. An extra 127 front-line ambulance staff will become available in the coming months. They're all being trained up now, they'll be going on the front line and, of course, there are more people helping with that triaging in the call centres as well.
Rwy'n derbyn bod problem. Mae'r galw ar y gwasanaeth wedi bod yn aruthrol. Mae’r cynnydd yn y galw ar y gwasanaeth yn fwy nag unrhyw beth a welsom o’r blaen, felly yn amlwg, mae rhan o hyn yn ymwneud â'r galw ac mae angen ystyried hynny hefyd. Credaf hefyd fod yn rhaid inni ddeall bod dros hanner y bobl yn cael eu gweld o fewn y ffrâm amser, felly nid yw'n ddrwg i gyd, ond wrth gwrs, nid ydym yn cyrraedd y targedau y dylem fod yn eu cyrraedd o bell ffordd. Un o'r pethau sydd wedi digwydd yr wythnos hon yw y cynhaliwyd uwchgynhadledd risg genedlaethol i edrych ar y mathau o niwed sy'n digwydd o ganlyniad i hyn, fel bod pobl yn dechrau deall nad yw'n rhywbeth lle nad oes unrhyw ganlyniadau; mae canlyniadau difrifol, ac felly mae angen i bobl ddeall bod angen iddynt dderbyn mwy o gyfrifoldeb. Felly, digwyddodd hynny yr wythnos hon hefyd. Bydd canlyniadau yn sgil yr uwchgynhadledd honno, felly rwy’n aros i glywed beth yn union sy’n digwydd. Felly, mae angen ffocws ar y sefyllfa wrth gwrs, a dyna pam rwy'n rhoi'r ffocws hwnnw iddi. Rydym wedi buddsoddi £5 miliwn. Bydd 127 o staff ambiwlans rheng flaen ychwanegol yn dod ar gael yn y misoedd nesaf. Maent wrthi'n cael eu hyfforddi yn awr, byddant yn gweithio ar y rheng flaen, ac wrth gwrs, mae mwy o bobl yn helpu gyda brysbennu yn y canolfannau galwadau hefyd.
3. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am ddarparu gwasanaethau ambiwlans yng Ngorllewin De Cymru? OQ57652
3. Will the Minister make a statement on the provision of ambulance services in South Wales West? OQ57652
Thanks very much. We expect health boards, as commissioners of ambulance services, to plan and secure safe and timely services that respond in order of clinical need. That means a whole-system approach, ensuring ambulance crews are available to respond when needed.
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Rydym yn disgwyl i fyrddau iechyd, fel comisiynwyr y gwasanaethau ambiwlans, gynllunio a sicrhau gwasanaethau diogel ac amserol sy’n ymateb yn nhrefn angen clinigol. Mae hynny’n golygu dull gweithredu system gyfan, gan sicrhau bod criwiau ambiwlans ar gael i ymateb pan fo angen.
Thank you, Minister, for that answer. I think rural areas sometimes see the worst ambulance response times by the fact that they are often further away and harder to reach. This is the situation for residents in my region, on the Gower peninsula. Many of them came together a few years ago and raised £65,000 towards a first responder vehicle to be based in Reynoldston, which meant serious incidents could be attended to much quicker than waiting for ambulances to come from elsewhere. In 2017, the crew in Reynoldston were called out 207 times, but by 2018 this had fallen to 61, and that drop has continued in the year since. There have been times that people have literally waited hours and hours for ambulances to be called from Port Talbot when the first responder is literally within two minutes of the call. People are waiting significant lengths of time for paramedics or ambulances from miles away when there are trained people on their doorstep, who could even come and give interim care until the full-time professionals arrive. This is a situation that needs to be urgently addressed and would appear to be one that could be easily rectified by better communications within the Welsh ambulance service and 999 call-handling centres, especially those call handlers located in north Wales who may be unfamiliar with the geography of south Wales and the Gower peninsula in particular. Can I ask whether the Minister would agree to meet with me and local groups involved in the Reynoldston first response unit to discuss this further, to better promote this service within Gower and within the wider ambulance service?
Diolch am eich ateb, Weinidog. Credaf weithiau fod yr amseroedd ymateb ambiwlans gwaethaf i'w gweld yn yr ardaloedd gwledig oherwydd eu bod yn aml ymhellach i ffwrdd ac yn anos eu cyrraedd. Dyma’r sefyllfa i drigolion yn fy rhanbarth i, ym mhenrhyn Gŵyr. Daeth llawer ohonynt ynghyd rai blynyddoedd yn ôl a chodi £65,000 tuag at gerbyd ymateb cyflym, i’w leoli yn Reynoldston, a olygai y gellid cyrraedd digwyddiadau difrifol yn gynt o lawer nag aros i ambiwlansys ddod o rywle arall. Yn 2017, cafodd y criw yn Reynoldston eu galw allan 207 o weithiau, ond erbyn 2018, roedd wedi gostwng i 61, ac mae’r gostyngiad wedi parhau yn y flwyddyn ers hynny. Ar adegau, bu pobl yn aros am oriau yn llythrennol i ambiwlansys gael eu galw o Bort Talbot pan fo'r cerbyd ymateb cyflym yn llythrennol o fewn dwy funud i’r alwad. Mae pobl yn aros am gyfnodau sylweddol o amser am barafeddygon neu ambiwlansys o filltiroedd i ffwrdd pan fo pobl hyfforddedig ar garreg eu drws, pobl a allai ddod i roi gofal interim tan i'r gweithwyr proffesiynol amser llawn gyrraedd. Mae hon yn sefyllfa y mae angen mynd i’r afael â hi ar frys ac ymddengys y gellid ei datrys yn hawdd drwy well cyfathrebu o fewn gwasanaeth ambiwlans Cymru a chanolfannau trin galwadau 999, yn enwedig y rheini sy’n trin galwadau yng ngogledd Cymru ac a allai fod yn anghyfarwydd â daearyddiaeth de Cymru a phenrhyn Gŵyr yn enwedig. Tybed a fyddai’r Gweinidog yn cytuno i gyfarfod â mi a grwpiau lleol sy’n ymwneud ag uned ymateb cyflym Reynoldston i drafod hyn ymhellach, i hyrwyddo’r gwasanaeth hwn yn well yn y Gŵyr ac yn y gwasanaeth ambiwlans ehangach?
Thanks very much, Tom. I spent a very nice weekend in the Gower, actually. I very rarely go to the Gower and it was very impressive to see actually how many of the local community are actually taking an interest in the health area—good to see that that kind of community spirit extends to this. But, of course, we have a responsibility as a Government to make sure that we are providing the service that we should be in those areas. I have been concerned about the situation in relation to ambulances in rural areas, because there was that roster review that was undertaken—that happened as a result of the demand and capacity review of 2018. What they were saying is that, actually, if we reconfigured the way that we organised ambulance services, we could get more bang for our buck, effectively. So, that roster review started happening, and then COVID hit. So, that's coming back on board. But, I have made it clear to the ambulance service that what we don't want to see is any denigration in terms of the provision to rural areas. So, that is something that I hope will happen as a result of that intervention that I have made.
Diolch yn fawr, Tom. Treuliais benwythnos braf iawn yn y Gŵyr. Anaml iawn yr af i'r Gŵyr, ac roedd yn wych gweld faint o’r gymuned leol sy’n dangos diddordeb ym maes iechyd—mae'n dda gweld bod y math hwnnw o ysbryd cymunedol yn ymestyn i hyn. Ond wrth gwrs, mae gennym gyfrifoldeb fel Llywodraeth i sicrhau ein bod yn darparu’r gwasanaeth y dylem fod yn ei ddarparu yn yr ardaloedd hynny. Rwyf wedi bod yn bryderus ynghylch sefyllfa ambiwlansys mewn ardaloedd gwledig, oherwydd yr adolygiad hwnnw o restrau gwaith a gynhaliwyd—a ddigwyddodd o ganlyniad i adolygiad galw a chapasiti 2018. Roeddent yn dweud pe byddem yn ad-drefnu'r ffordd y trefnwn wasanaethau ambiwlans, gallem gael mwy am ein harian, i bob pwrpas. Felly, cychwynnwyd yr adolygiad o restrau gwaith, ac yna fe darodd COVID. Felly, mae hynny bellach yn ôl ar y gweill. Ond rwyf wedi dweud yn glir wrth y gwasanaeth ambiwlans nad ydym am weld unrhyw leihad yn y ddarpariaeth i ardaloedd gwledig. Felly, mae hynny'n rhywbeth y gobeithiaf y bydd yn digwydd o ganlyniad i'r ymyrraeth honno a wneuthum.
Cwestiwn 4 nawr, i'w ateb gan y Dirprwy Weinidog Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Peter Fox.
Question 4 now, to be answered by the Deputy Minister for Social Services. Peter Fox.
4. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am ofynion gwasanaeth rhyddhau o'r ysbyty? OQ57663
4. Will the Minister make a statement on the hospital discharge service requirements? OQ57663
Thank you. Discharge service guidance is in place to manage the flow of patients, particularly during the pandemic. We recently updated this guidance, taking on board the latest and more positive position with regard to COVID, in order to continue to provide a safe mechanism for discharging people from hospitals following their treatment.
Diolch. Mae canllawiau gwasanaeth rhyddhau o'r ysbyty ar waith er mwyn rheoli llif cleifion, yn enwedig yn ystod y pandemig. Gwnaethom ddiweddaru’r canllawiau hyn yn ddiweddar, gan ystyried y sefyllfa ddiweddaraf a mwy cadarnhaol o ran COVID, er mwyn parhau i ddarparu mecanwaith diogel ar gyfer rhyddhau pobl o ysbytai yn dilyn eu triniaeth.
Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your statement. Llywydd, recently, my office has been told of an incident at the Grange hospital, where a constituent who is 92 years old was discharged from A&E in the early hours of the morning. They arrived home at 4 a.m. Prior to their discharge, the constituent's partner, also 92, received a phone call from the hospital at around 3 a.m., causing them to get out of bed in a hurry, despite being susceptible to falling themselves. While I acknowledge and appreciate the response from the chief executive of the health board, explaining the situation as they saw it, this doesn't detract from my concerns about the discharge procedures at that hospital. My constituent and their partner stated that they did not receive sufficient support, and that their partner had to push them, using a rollator, to get them into bed.
Minister, you will be aware of the recent report of Age Alliance Wales, which highlighted inadequacies in the procedures, and it's just not acceptable. I understand that hospitals are still under significant pressure and that the COVID-19 pandemic has meant that discharge procedures have been altered to free up beds and reduce the risk of infection. But, what has happened to the basic principles, like kindness and compassion? The NHS shouldn't be moving towards being a factory. Minister, how is the Welsh Government working with partners in the Welsh NHS to ensure that such unacceptable incidents don't happen and that discharge procedures better acknowledge the vulnerability of people like my constituent?
Diolch am eich datganiad, Ddirprwy Weinidog. Lywydd, yn ddiweddar, mae fy swyddfa wedi cael gwybod am ddigwyddiad yn ysbyty’r Faenor, lle cafodd etholwr sy’n 92 oed eu rhyddhau o’r adran ddamweiniau ac achosion brys yn oriau mân y bore. Fe wnaethant gyrraedd adref am 4 a.m. Cyn iddynt gael eu rhyddhau, derbyniodd partner yr etholwr, sydd hefyd yn 92 oed, alwad ffôn gan yr ysbyty oddeutu 3 a.m., gan achosi iddynt godi o'r gwely ar frys, er eu bod mewn perygl o gwympo eu hunain. Er fy mod yn cydnabod ac yn gwerthfawrogi’r ymateb gan brif weithredwr y bwrdd iechyd yn egluro’r sefyllfa o'u safbwynt hwy, nid yw hyn yn lleddfu fy mhryderon ynghylch y gweithdrefnau rhyddhau yn yr ysbyty hwnnw. Dywedodd fy etholwr a’u partner nad oeddent yn cael digon o gymorth, a bod yn rhaid i’w partner eu gwthio, gan ddefnyddio ffrâm gerdded, i’w rhoi yn y gwely.
Weinidog, fe fyddwch yn ymwybodol o adroddiad diweddar Cynghrair Henoed Cymru, a nododd annigonolrwydd yn y gweithdrefnau, ac nid yw hynny’n dderbyniol. Deallaf fod ysbytai o dan bwysau sylweddol o hyd a bod pandemig COVID-19 wedi golygu bod gweithdrefnau rhyddhau wedi’u newid fel bod mwy o welyau ar gael ac i leihau’r risg o haint. Ond beth sydd wedi digwydd i’r egwyddorion sylfaenol, megis caredigrwydd a thosturi? Ni ddylai'r GIG droi'n ffatri. Weinidog, sut y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn gweithio gyda phartneriaid yn GIG Cymru i sicrhau nad yw digwyddiadau annerbyniol o’r fath yn digwydd a bod gweithdrefnau rhyddhau'n cydnabod yn well pa mor agored i niwed yw pobl fel fy etholwr?
Yes, I thank Peter Fox for that question, and I am concerned to hear about what happened to his constituent and the constituent's husband. It is, really, a lot of what we have been talking about this afternoon—how we get better co-ordination and better working together between the health and social services systems. Obviously, this family were in need of help—in need of social care help when they got home—and they needed that to be identified in the hospital. So, it is this link that is so important. Obviously, what happened with his constituent is something that we wouldn't want to happen to anybody. But, we are planning and working to improve the links between health and social care. In addition, the six goals for urgent and emergency care include goal 5, which is optimal hospital care and discharge practice, from the point of admission, and goal 6, which is a home-first approach and reducing the risk of readmission. These goals—five and six—seek to deliver the national discharge guidance. We have given £25 million in recurring national funding to support this—although, obviously, I accept it didn't happen in his constituent's case. This is something that we've got to work very hard on. So, we are doing that, and we are investing that money.
In addition to that, we are putting £2.6 million into non-urgent patient transport, and that's in an effort to ease pressure on the ambulance service—and we have just had a number of questions about the ambulance service. We are giving £40 million to support the recovery of social care services, and £9.8 million is allocated to regional partnership boards to support delivery of their plans to ease winter pressures, along with £32.92 million for social care pressures. So, I think you can see that we are putting a great deal of investment into the service and we are working very hard to get the partnership right between the hospital and the social care system, but I would once again like to express my sympathy for what happened to his constituents.
Ie, diolch i Peter Fox am ei gwestiwn, ac mae'n ddrwg gennyf glywed am yr hyn a ddigwyddodd i’w etholwr a gŵr yr etholwr. Mae'n ymwneud â llawer o'r hyn y buom yn sôn amdano'r prynhawn yma—sut y mae sicrhau gwell cydgysylltu a gwell cydweithio rhwng y systemau iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Yn amlwg, roedd angen cymorth ar y teulu hwn—angen cymorth gofal cymdeithasol ar ôl iddynt gyrraedd adref—ac roedd angen i hynny gael ei nodi yn yr ysbyty. Felly, mae'r cyswllt hwn mor bwysig. Yn amlwg, mae’r hyn a ddigwyddodd gyda’i etholwr yn rhywbeth na fyddem am iddo ddigwydd i unrhyw un. Ond rydym yn cynllunio ac yn gweithio i wella’r cysylltiadau rhwng iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol. Yn ogystal, mae’r chwe nod ar gyfer gofal brys yn cynnwys nod 5, sef yr arfer gofal ysbyty a rhyddhau gorau posibl, o’r adeg y caiff claf ei dderbyn, a nod 6, sef dull cartref yn gyntaf a lleihau’r risg o orfod dychwelyd i'r ysbyty. Bwriad y nodau hyn—pump a chwech—yw cyflawni’r canllawiau rhyddhau cenedlaethol. Rydym wedi darparu £25 miliwn mewn cyllid cenedlaethol cylchol i gefnogi hyn—er, yn amlwg, rwy’n derbyn na ddigwyddodd hynny yn achos ei etholwr. Mae hyn yn rhywbeth y mae'n rhaid inni weithio'n galed iawn arno. Felly, rydym yn gwneud hynny, ac rydym yn buddsoddi’r arian hwnnw.
Yn ogystal â hynny, rydym yn darparu £2.6 miliwn ar gyfer cludiant cleifion nad ydynt yn achosion brys, a hynny mewn ymdrech i leddfu'r pwysau ar y gwasanaeth ambiwlans—ac rydym newydd gael nifer o gwestiynau am y gwasanaeth ambiwlans. Rydym yn darparu £40 miliwn i gefnogi adferiad gwasanaethau gofal cymdeithasol, a dyrennir £9.8 miliwn i fyrddau partneriaeth rhanbarthol i gefnogi’r gwaith o gyflawni eu cynlluniau i leddfu pwysau’r gaeaf, ynghyd â £32.92 miliwn ar gyfer pwysau gofal cymdeithasol. Felly, rwy'n credu y gallwch weld ein bod yn buddsoddi llawer iawn yn y gwasanaeth ac rydym yn gweithio’n galed iawn i gael y bartneriaeth yn iawn rhwng yr ysbyty a’r system gofal cymdeithasol, ond hoffwn fynegi fy nghydymdeimlad unwaith eto â'r hyn a ddigwyddodd i'w etholwyr.
Would you agree with me that one of the keys to this is ensuring that we have the quality social care in the community to enable people to be discharged quickly?
A fyddech yn cytuno â mi mai un o’r pethau allweddol yn hyn o beth yw sicrhau bod gennym ofal cymdeithasol o safon yn y gymuned i alluogi pobl i gael eu rhyddhau’n gyflym?
Yes, it's absolutely essential that we have that quality social care, and, as we all know, social care has been under huge pressure, and we are doing all we possibly can to boost the social care service. I announced yesterday ways we were working towards attracting more social care workers to the service, because we're very short of staff, by bringing in the real living wage, along with an additional payment. We're working hard to look at terms and conditions, because I think the key to this is getting the staff—the right, quality staff—in the community, who will be there to work with vulnerable people to help stop them going into hospital, and, when they do come out of hospital, to be there to prevent them going back in. So, yes, I certainly do agree with what Jenny Rathbone has said.
Ydw, mae'n gwbl hanfodol fod gennym ofal cymdeithasol o safon, ac fel y gŵyr pob un ohonom, mae gofal cymdeithasol wedi bod dan bwysau aruthrol, ac rydym yn gwneud popeth a allwn i roi hwb i'r gwasanaeth gofal cymdeithasol. Ddoe, cyhoeddais ffyrdd yr ydym yn gweithio tuag at ddenu mwy o weithwyr gofal cymdeithasol i’r gwasanaeth, gan ein bod yn brin iawn o staff, drwy gyflwyno’r cyflog byw gwirioneddol, ynghyd â thaliad ychwanegol. Rydym yn gweithio'n galed i edrych ar delerau ac amodau, gan y credaf mai'r hyn sy'n allweddol yw cael y staff—y staff cywir, o ansawdd uchel—yn y gymuned, a fydd yno i weithio gyda phobl agored i niwed i helpu i'w hatal rhag gorfod mynd i'r ysbyty, a phan gânt eu rhyddhau o'r ysbyty, i fod yno i'w hatal rhag gorfod dychwelyd yno. Felly, ydw, rwy'n sicr yn cytuno â'r hyn a ddywedodd Jenny Rathbone.
5. A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am gynlluniau Llywodraeth Cymru i wella'r ddarpariaeth iechyd yng nghanolbarth Cymru? OQ57641
5. Will the Minister provide an update on Welsh Government plans to improve health provision in mid Wales? OQ57641
Powys Teaching Health Board is responsible for providing services to its population. We are working with the health board on business cases for both the north Powys well-being development, and refurbishment works at Llandrindod Wells hospital.
Mae Bwrdd Iechyd Addysgu Powys yn gyfrifol am ddarparu gwasanaethau i'w boblogaeth. Rydym yn gweithio gyda’r bwrdd iechyd ar achosion busnes ar gyfer datblygiad llesiant gogledd Powys, a gwaith adnewyddu yn ysbyty Llandrindod.
Thank you, Minister, for your reply. I appreciate it's your birthday today and usually people give you presents, but I'm hoping that you'll give my constituents a present through your answer today. Minister, there is strong community support and cross-party support for proposals brought forward by Powys County Council and the Powys health board for a new community hospital and health and well-being centre in Newtown, and, as you know, the plan would see a cutting-edge facility to serve north Powys and improve health outcomes. It would mean, of course, people wouldn't have to travel out of county for appointments; they could receive healthcare and appointments and consultations locally rather than going beyond the border of Powys. Now, I've raised this previously with you and the First Minister as well. The First Minister gave me a very positive reply last July and told me that the Welsh Government was absolutely committed to this project. However, it has been sat on the desk of Welsh Government for some months now. I appreciate this cuts across various Ministers—education, local authority, finance—so, can I ask you to liaise with your colleagues and Ministers across Government in order to get the green light for this project as soon as possible, because I'm sure, as well as me, you're aware that if we give the green light to this project it will help reduce that health backlog that you and I both want to see reduced?
Diolch am eich ateb, Weinidog. Rwy’n derbyn ei bod yn ben-blwydd arnoch heddiw, ac fel arfer, bydd pobl yn rhoi anrhegion i chi, ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwch yn rhoi anrheg i fy etholwyr drwy eich ateb heddiw. Weinidog, mae cryn dipyn o gefnogaeth gymunedol a chefnogaeth drawsbleidiol i gynigion a gyflwynwyd gan Gyngor Sir Powys a bwrdd iechyd Powys ar gyfer ysbyty cymunedol a chanolfan iechyd a llesiant newydd yn y Drenewydd, ac fel y gwyddoch, byddai’r cynllun yn darparu cyfleuster o'r radd flaenaf i wasanaethu gogledd Powys ac i wella canlyniadau iechyd. Byddai’n golygu, wrth gwrs, na fyddai’n rhaid i bobl deithio allan o’r sir am apwyntiad. Gallent gael gofal iechyd ac apwyntiadau ac ymgynghoriadau yn lleol yn hytrach na mynd allan o Bowys. Nawr, rwyf wedi codi hyn eisoes gyda chi a'r Prif Weinidog hefyd. Rhoddodd y Prif Weinidog ateb cadarnhaol iawn i mi fis Gorffennaf diwethaf a dywedodd wrthyf fod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi ymrwymo’n llwyr i’r prosiect hwn. Fodd bynnag, mae wedi bod yn eistedd ar ddesg Llywodraeth Cymru ers misoedd bellach. Rwy’n derbyn ei fod yn gorgyffwrdd â chyfrifoldebau amryw Weinidogion—addysg, awdurdod lleol, cyllid—felly, a gaf fi ofyn ichi gysylltu â’ch cyd-Aelodau a Gweinidogion ar draws y Llywodraeth er mwyn cael y golau gwyrdd i'r prosiect hwn cyn gynted â phosibl, gan fy mod yn siŵr eich bod chi, fel finnau, yn gwybod, os rhown y golau gwyrdd i'r prosiect hwn, y bydd yn helpu i leihau'r ôl-groniad iechyd yr ydych chi a minnau am ei weld yn lleihau?
Thanks very much, Russell. Certainly, I've been to the site where the proposed new north Powys well-being development is, and it certainly does look like an exciting development. The programme business case for that development is currently working through final scrutiny, but I will see if I can get a better sense of when exactly a decision will be made. What I will, I'm afraid, have to warn you about is that there are considerable pressures on the NHS capital programme and that there will be difficult decisions that will need to be made, going forward, and so we certainly will be looking to work with the council and other areas to see what we can do to progress programmes like this and others.
Diolch yn fawr, Russell. Yn sicr, rwyf wedi bod ar safle datblygiad llesiant newydd arfaethedig gogledd Powys, ac yn sicr, mae’n edrych fel datblygiad cyffrous. Mae achos busnes y rhaglen ar gyfer y datblygiad yn mynd drwy'r broses graffu derfynol ar hyn o bryd, ond rwyf am weld a allaf gael gwell ymdeimlad o ba bryd yn union y gwneir y penderfyniad. Yr hyn y bydd yn rhaid i mi eich rhybuddio yn ei gylch, mae arnaf ofn, yw bod pwysau sylweddol ar raglen gyfalaf y GIG ac y bydd angen gwneud penderfyniadau anodd yn y dyfodol, ac felly yn sicr, byddwn yn gobeithio gweithio gyda'r cyngor ac ardaloedd eraill i weld beth y gallwn ei wneud i ddatblygu rhaglenni fel hon a rhaglenni eraill.
Prynhawn da, Gweinidog, a phen-blwydd hapus hefyd. Diolch i Russell am godi'r mater yma. Dwi'n hynod o falch i glywed bod y cynlluniau yma yn symud ymlaen, a hoffwn i ddiolch i Russell, sydd wedi gweithio mor galed ar y prosiect yma—a thipyn bach o gydweithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dros ogledd Powys. Jest yn dilyn yr ateb i Russell, a gaf i ofyn pa fath o broses fydd yn ei lle i gario ymlaen i gysylltu efo pawb dros y prosiect yma? Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Good afternoon, Minister, and happy birthday. Thank you to Russell for raising this point. I'm very pleased to hear that these plans are moving forward, and I would like to thank Russell, who has worked so hard on this project—and some collaboration, I hope, across north Powys. Following on from your response to Russell, can I just ask what kind of process will be in place to continue to keep in touch with people in relation to this project? Thank you.
Diolch yn fawr. Dŷn ni ddim yn y sefyllfa yna eto lle rŷn ni wedi cael y golau gwyrdd. Roeddwn i wedi gobeithio y byddai efallai fwy o arian ar gael ar gyfer cyfalaf y tu mewn i raglen yr NHS, felly, ar hyn o bryd, rŷn ni'n mynd ati i weld ble mae'n bosibl inni gario ymlaen â'r datblygiadau rŷn ni'n awyddus i'w gweld, ac, yn sicr, byddem ni'n awyddus i weld hwn yn datblygu, os yn bosibl. Felly, arian, dwi'n siŵr, fydd y peth fydd yn cyfyngu unrhyw symudiad tuag at symud ymlaen yma, felly dyna pam rŷn ni angen mynd trwy'r sgrwtini olaf yna, a gobeithio y gallaf i ddod nôl ag ateb i chi cyn bo hir ar y mater yma.
Thank you very much. We're not in that position as of yet where we've got the green light. We had hoped that there may be more capital available within the NHS programme, so, at the moment, we are considering where we can make progress with the developments that we're eager to see, and we would certainly be eager to see this develop if it all possible. So, I'm sure that funding will be the factor that limits any progress in this area, and that's why we do need to go through that final scrutiny, and hopefully I can return with a response to you on this issue before too long.
Cwestiwn 6, Mabon ap Gwynfor.
Question 6, Mabon ap Gwynfor.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. A gaf i hefyd gymryd y cyfle i ddymuno pen-blwydd hapus i'r Gweinidog drwyddoch chi, Llywydd? Diolch.
Thank you, Llywydd. May I also take this opportunity to wish the Minister a happy birthday through you, Llywydd? Thank you.
6. Pa asesiad y mae'r Gweinidog wedi'i wneud o ganfyddiadau adroddiad Coleg Brenhinol y Llawfeddygon ar wasanaethau fasgwlaidd yng Ngogledd Cymru? OQ57656
6. What assessment has the Minister made of the findings of the Royal College of Surgeons report on vascular services in North Wales? OQ57656
Diolch yn fawr. Yn amlwg, roeddwn i'n siomedig iawn i weld yr adroddiad o'r Royal College of Surgeons ynglŷn â'r gwasanaeth fasgiwlar yng ngogledd Cymru. Roedd rhestr hir o broblemau oedd wedi cael eu nodi yn yr adroddiad yna, ac mae'r Betsi teaching board yn gyfrifol am roi gwasanaethau i'w boblogaeth.
Well, thank you very much. Clearly, I was very disappointed to see the report from the Royal College of Surgeons with regard to vascular services in north Wales. There was a long list of issues that had been noted in that report, and Betsi teaching board is responsible for the provision of services to its population.
Diolch yn fawr iawn i'r Gweinidog am yr ateb. Wel, ar ôl tair blynedd o sefydlu grwpiau gwella, grwpiau tasg a gorchwyl, newid personél arweinyddol, ac, yn y pen draw, gomisiynu adroddiad annibynnol, o'r diwedd mae yna gydnabyddiaeth bod yna gamgymeriadau sylweddol wedi cael eu gwneud efo'r gwasanaeth. Oes rhywun yn mynd i gael eu dal i gyfrif am hyn, Weinidog? Fedrwch chi gadarnhau a oes unrhyw un a oedd yn uniongyrchol gyfrifol am y camgymeriadau yn parhau mewn rôl weithredol arweinyddol ar y bwrdd? Ydych chi'n credu ei bod hi'n iawn fod pobl a wthiodd hyn drwyddo yn parhau i fod mewn swyddi cyfrifol yn y maes iechyd, ac a wnewch chi rŵan roi'r gwasanaeth fasciwlar yn y gogledd yn ôl i mewn i fesurau arbennig er mwyn adennill hyder pobl gogledd Cymru?
I thank the Minister for that response. Well, after three years of establishing improvement groups, task and finish groups, a change of leadership personnel, and, ultimately, commissioning an independent report, at last there is recognition that substantial mistakes have been made with this service. Is someone going to be held to account for this, Minister? Can you confirm whether anyone who was directly responsible for these mistakes remains in an operational leadership role in this area? And do you think that it's right that the people who pushed this through remain in positions of responsibility in the health service, and will you now place the vascular service back into special measures in order to regain the confidence of the people of north Wales?
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Mabon. Dwi'n meddwl y gwnaeth y Prif Weinidog roi eglurhad eithaf trylwyr yr wythnos yma ynglŷn â'r sefyllfa. Yn amlwg, rŷn ni mewn sefyllfa lle roedden ni yn dilyn y canllawiau. Y Royal College of Surgeons, wrth gwrs, oedd wedi argymell bod pethau yn cael eu canoli yn y lle cyntaf, felly dwi yn meddwl ei bod hi'n bwysig ein bod ni yn edrych ar yr arweiniad maen nhw'n awyddus i'w roi hefyd.
Dwi wedi rhoi rhybudd yn awr i'r bwrdd yn Betsi. Os nad yw'r argymhellion yn yr adroddiad wedi cael eu symud ymlaen yn ystod y tri mis nesaf, mi fydd yna consequences i'w cael. Mi fydd e'n glir, os na fyddwn ni'n gweld gwelliant yn y tri mis nesaf, mi fydda i'n gofyn i'r grŵp tripartite gynnal cyfarfod ychwanegol i roi mwy o wybodaeth i fi ynglŷn ag escalation pellach.
Thank you very much, Mabon. I believe the First Minister gave an explanation with regard to the situation quite thoroughly this week. Clearly, we're in a position where we were following the guidance. The Royal of College of Surgeons, of course, had recommended that things were centralised in the first instance, so I do think it's important that we look at the guidance that they're eager to give too.
I have given a warning now to the board in the Betsi area. If the recommendations in the report haven't been progressed over the coming three months, there will be consequences as a result of that. I've made it clear, if we don't see improvement in the next three months, I will be asking the tripartite group to hold an additional meeting to give me additional information with regard to further escalation.
7. Pa gamau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu cymryd i hyrwyddo rhagoriaeth yn GIG Cymru? OQ57633
7. What action is the Welsh Government taking to promote excellence in the Welsh NHS? OQ57633
The people of Wales deserve the highest quality health services and the best outcomes. Striving for excellence should be at the heart of all health boards' plans, and embedded in all levels of the NHS. We're committed to strengthening this through our collaborative transformation and quality improvement approaches.
Mae pobl Cymru yn haeddu gwasanaethau iechyd o'r safon uchaf a'r canlyniadau gorau. Dylai ymdrechu am ragoriaeth fod yn ganolog yng nghynlluniau pob bwrdd iechyd, a dylid eu hymgorffori ar bob lefel o'r GIG. Rydym wedi ymrwymo i gryfhau hyn drwy ein dulliau gwella ansawdd a thrawsnewid cydweithredol.
I completely agree with the aspirations that you've just espoused, Minister, but I'm very, very concerned to see your statement today in relation to the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board being given just three months before it could possibly be put back into special measures. Those of us who represent constituencies in north Wales feel let down. We feel let down, yes, by the Welsh Government for failing to turn the situation around in over five years when the organisation was in special measures, which causes me to question how effective they might be if they're reintroduced unless they seriously change, but, secondly, we feel let down by the leadership of that health board in the past. One of the proposals that we have put forward and discussed in this Chamber—and I hope we can attract you to it—is to establish a register of Welsh NHS leaders, so that when people fail in their jobs, when people cause harm in their jobs because of decisions that they take as managers within the health service, not clinicians that can be struck off registers, if they're nurses or doctors, but I'm talking about managers, they should be held to account for those actions and never be allowed to put people at risk again by being thrown off a register in the future. Is that something that you will consider, and how can you demonstrate that things will be different in the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board in the future, further to your ministerial statement today?
Rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr â'r dyheadau yr ydych newydd eu lleisio, Weinidog, ond rwy'n bryderus iawn ar ôl gweld eich datganiad heddiw mai tri mis yn unig y mae Bwrdd Iechyd Prifysgol Betsi Cadwaladr wedi'i gael cyn y gallai fod yn destun mesurau arbennig unwaith eto. Mae'r rheini ohonom sy'n cynrychioli etholaethau yn y gogledd yn siomedig. Teimlwn ein bod wedi cael ein siomi, ie, gan Lywodraeth Cymru am fethu gwella'r sefyllfa mewn cyfnod o dros bum mlynedd pan oedd y sefydliad yn destun mesurau arbennig, sy'n peri imi gwestiynu pa mor effeithiol y gallant fod os cânt eu hailgyflwyno oni bai eu bod yn newid o ddifrif, ond yn ail, teimlwn siom ynghylch arweinyddiaeth y bwrdd iechyd hwnnw yn y gorffennol. Un o'r cynigion a gyflwynwyd gennym i'w drafod yn y Siambr—ac rwy'n gobeithio y gallwn eich denu ato—yw sefydlu cofrestr o arweinwyr GIG Cymru, ac felly pan fydd pobl yn methu yn eu swyddi, pan fydd pobl yn achosi niwed yn eu swyddi oherwydd penderfyniadau a wnânt fel rheolwyr yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, nid clinigwyr y gellir eu tynnu oddi ar gofrestri, os ydynt yn nyrsys neu'n feddygon, rwy'n sôn am reolwyr yma, dylid eu dwyn i gyfrif am y gweithredoedd hynny a dylid eu tynnu oddi ar gofrestr fel na allant roi pobl mewn perygl eto yn y dyfodol. A yw hwnnw'n rhywbeth y byddwch yn ei ystyried, a sut y gallwch ddangos y bydd pethau'n wahanol ym Mwrdd Iechyd Prifysgol Betsi Cadwaladr yn y dyfodol, yn dilyn eich datganiad gweinidogol heddiw?
Thanks very much, Darren. Well, certainly, we are concerned about the situation in relation to vascular in north Wales. I have been comforted by the fact that it was Betsi itself that called in the Royal College of Physicians to look at the situation. That was the right thing for them to do. I am hoping that they're going to respond quickly to that review. They have undertaken to put forward those actions. We'll be monitoring those actions as a Government on a monthly basis. I'm really pleased to see that they'll be working with Liverpool hospital to make sure that there is some oversight and understanding from a quality service that is seen there. And, of course, we're very keen to see the establishment of that quality panel. You're interested in quality, we're interested in quality. That's what they're going to do: set up a quality plan to strengthen the clinical leadership locally.
As to your question that, of course, there is this—. We have already received a detailed action plan from Betsi and they have committed to immediate implementation of that.
As to your other question about leadership, I can see your point. I think there have been examples in the past where we've seen people move from one board to another. Let me take that away, Darren, and give it some thought.FootnoteLink
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Darren. Wel, yn sicr, rydym yn pryderu am sefyllfa gwasanaethau fasgwlaidd yn y gogledd. Mae'r ffaith mai bwrdd Betsi ei hun a ofynnodd i Goleg Brenhinol y Meddygon edrych ar y sefyllfa yn gysur i mi. Dyna'r peth iawn iddynt ei wneud. Rwy'n gobeithio y byddant yn ymateb yn gyflym i'r adolygiad hwnnw. Maent wedi ymrwymo i gyflwyno'r camau hynny. Byddwn yn monitro'r camau fel Llywodraeth yn fisol. Rwy'n falch iawn o weld y byddant yn gweithio gydag ysbyty Lerpwl i sicrhau bod goruchwyliaeth a dealltwriaeth gan wasanaeth o safon i'w weld yno. Ac wrth gwrs, rydym yn awyddus iawn i weld y panel ansawdd hwnnw'n cael ei sefydlu. Mae gennych chi ddiddordeb mewn ansawdd, mae gennym ni ddiddordeb mewn ansawdd. Dyna maent am ei wneud: sefydlu cynllun ansawdd i gryfhau'r arweinyddiaeth glinigol yn lleol.
O ran eich cwestiwn, wrth gwrs, mae hyn—. Rydym eisoes wedi cael cynllun gweithredu manwl gan Betsi ac maent wedi ymrwymo i weithredu hwnnw ar unwaith.
Ar eich cwestiwn arall ynglŷn ag arweinyddiaeth, gallaf weld eich pwynt. Rwy'n credu bod enghreifftiau wedi bod yn y gorffennol lle y gwelsom bobl yn symud o un bwrdd i'r llall. Gadewch imi fynd yn ôl i ystyried hynny, Darren.FootnoteLink
Ac yn olaf, cwestiwn 8, Alun Davies.
And finally, question 8, Alun Davies.
8. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am fynediad cleifion at wasanaethau deintyddol brys yn ardal Bwrdd Iechyd Prifysgol Aneurin Bevan? OQ57671
8. Will the Minister make a statement on patient access to urgent dental services in the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board area? OQ57671
Mae'r bwrdd iechyd wedi buddsoddi £840,000 arall ym maes deintyddiaeth, gan gynnwys ar gyfer darparu mynediad brys. O ganlyniad, mae'r ddarpariaeth a gynigir wedi cynyddu o 157 i 300 o apwyntiadau brys yr wythnos. Mae'r mynediad at ofal mwy rheolaidd yn dal i fod yn gyfyngedig o ganlyniad i'r mesurau rheoli heintiau angenrheidiol sydd ar waith. Wrth flaenoriaethu, mae penderfyniadau yn cael eu gwneud yn ôl anghenion y claf.
The health board has invested an additional £840,000 in dentistry, including the provision of urgent access. As a result, there's been a provision increase from 157 to 300 urgent appointments available per week. Access to more routine care remains limited due to necessary infection control measures, and priority is determined according to patient need.
Diolch ichi, Weinidog. Dwi'n gwerthfawrogi hynny.
Thank you, Minister. I appreciate that.
There is, of course, another crisis in access to NHS dentistry, which isn't simply a consequence of the pandemic, and that is the consequence of the lack of availability of NHS dental services. This affects many parts of the country, but is a particular issue at the moment in Ebbw Vale, where my constituents are simply unable to access NHS dentistry. It is profoundly worrying that a child growing up in Ebbw Vale doesn't have the same access to basic dentistry as a child growing up elsewhere. Older people are unable to afford to go to see the dentist. This isn't what our vision of a national health service is or should be. Can you assure me, Minister, that you will intervene to ensure that my constituents have access to NHS dentistry, that they are able to access the services that we have all paid for collectively and for which the national health service ensures that those services are available to all equally, to enable people to feel comfortable that they themselves can be taken care of and that they're families can be taken care of?
Wrth gwrs, mae argyfwng arall gyda mynediad at ddeintyddiaeth y GIG, nad yw'n ganlyniad i'r pandemig yn unig, sef canlyniad diffyg gwasanaethau deintyddol y GIG. Mae hyn yn effeithio ar sawl rhan o'r wlad, ond mae'n broblem benodol ar hyn o bryd yng Nglyn Ebwy, lle nad yw fy etholwyr yn gallu cael gafael ar wasanaethau deintyddol y GIG. Mae'n destun pryder mawr nad oes gan blentyn sy'n tyfu i fyny yng Nglyn Ebwy yr un mynediad at ddeintyddiaeth sylfaenol â phlentyn sy'n tyfu i fyny mewn mannau eraill. Nid yw pobl hŷn yn gallu fforddio mynd i weld y deintydd. Nid dyma yw ein gweledigaeth ar gyfer gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol ac nid dyma y dylai fod ychwaith. A allwch chi fy sicrhau, Weinidog, y byddwch yn ymyrryd i sicrhau bod fy etholwyr yn gallu cael mynediad at ddeintyddiaeth y GIG, eu bod yn gallu cael gafael ar y gwasanaethau y mae pawb ohonom wedi talu amdanynt ar y cyd a'r gwasanaethau y mae'r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yn sicrhau eu bod ar gael i bawb yn gyfartal, er mwyn sicrhau bod pobl yn teimlo'n gyfforddus ein bod yn gofalu amdanynt hwy a'u teuluoedd?
Well, thanks very much, Alun. I can assure you that I've been very concerned about the situation, not just in your constituency, but in other constituencies around Wales. Because of the pandemic, we have seen a massive reduction. And it's not just because of the pandemic, I do accept that, but, certainly, that has reduced the capacity by about 50 per cent. So, you can't ignore that. That is a significant issue. That's why I was very keen to make sure that we put up an extra £3 million in this financial year to boost access to NHS dental services, and then to increase that to £2 million recurrently next year and beyond.
There are issues, and I'm very keen to see what more we can do in this space. It's not straightforward, because we can train people up for the NHS and then they leave to the private sector. There's not a straightforward and easy answer to this. Now, one of the things we're doing is we've got a contract reform that'll be starting in April, where we'll be measuring and incentivising quality and prevention. We'll be getting people to look at not just existing patients, but new patients, and also we'll be encouraging them to use the skills as a whole team, because it's not just dentists who can use them—dental technicians have really excellent clinical skills and we need to be using them. So, it is an area where we need to do more work. It's very difficult, because we pour money into it and people leave the sector. It's very, very hard. So, if you've got any good ideas, Alun, I'm all ears.
Wel, diolch yn fawr iawn, Alun. Gallaf eich sicrhau fy mod wedi bod yn bryderus iawn am y sefyllfa, nid yn unig yn eich etholaeth chi, ond mewn etholaethau eraill ledled Cymru. Oherwydd y pandemig, rydym wedi gweld gostyngiad enfawr. Ac nid oherwydd y pandemig yn unig, rwy'n derbyn hynny, ond yn sicr, mae hwnnw wedi lleihau'r capasiti oddeutu 50 y cant. Felly, ni allwch anwybyddu hynny. Mae honno'n broblem fawr. Dyna pam fy mod yn awyddus iawn i sicrhau ein bod yn rhoi £3 miliwn ychwanegol yn y flwyddyn ariannol hon i wella mynediad at wasanaethau deintyddol y GIG, a'i gynyddu wedyn i £2 filiwn yn rheolaidd y flwyddyn nesaf a thu hwnt.
Mae yna broblemau, ac rwy'n awyddus iawn i weld beth arall y gallwn ei wneud yn y maes hwn. Nid yw'n syml, oherwydd gallwn hyfforddi pobl ar gyfer y GIG ac yna maent yn gadael ac yn mynd i weithio i'r sector preifat. Nid oes ateb syml a hawdd i hyn. Nawr, un o'r pethau a wnawn yw diwygio contractau gan ddechrau ym mis Ebrill, lle byddwn yn mesur ac yn cymell ansawdd ac atal. Byddwn yn cael pobl i edrych nid yn unig ar gleifion sydd yno eisoes, ond cleifion newydd, a hefyd byddwn yn eu hannog i ddefnyddio'r sgiliau fel tîm cyfan, oherwydd nid deintyddion yn unig sy'n gallu eu defnyddio—mae gan dechnegwyr deintyddol sgiliau clinigol rhagorol iawn ac mae angen inni eu defnyddio. Felly, mae'n faes lle mae angen inni wneud mwy o waith. Mae'n anodd iawn, oherwydd rydym yn arllwys arian i mewn ac mae pobl yn gadael y sector. Mae'n anodd iawn. Felly, os oes gennych chi unrhyw syniadau da, Alun, rwy'n glustiau i gyd.
Diolch i'r Gweinidog, a gobeithio y caiff hi gyfle i ymlacio tamaid bach nawr am weddill ei phen-blwydd hi. Bues i bron â dechrau canu ar un adeg yn ystod yr holl ddymuniadau yna, ond penderfynais i taw gwell fyddai peidio â gwneud. [Chwerthin.]
I thank the Minister, and I hope that she will have an opportunity to relax now for the rest of her birthday. I almost started to sing at one point there during all those best wishes shared with you, but I decided it was better not to do that. [Laughter.]
Y cwestiwn amserol sydd nesaf, ac mae'r cwestiwn hynny i'w ateb gan y Dirprwy Weinidog Newid Hinsawdd, ac i'w ofyn gan Janet Finch-Saunders.
The topical question is now, and that question is to be answered by the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, and is to be asked by Janet Finch-Saunders.
1. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am y penderfyniad i roi'r gorau i'r prosiect i gael gwared ar gylchfannau'r A55? TQ598
1. Will the Minister make a statement on the decision to scrap the A55 roundabouts removal project? TQ598
Yes. The roads review panel recommended that, instead of progressing the project in its current form, there's a strong case for considering a review of the whole of the north Wales corridor, as recommended in the UK Government's union connectivity review's final report. I accepted those recommendations, and last week set up the north Wales transport commission, chaired by Lord Burns.
Gwnaf. Argymhellodd y panel adolygu ffyrdd, yn hytrach na bwrw ymlaen â'r prosiect ar ei ffurf bresennol, fod achos cryf dros ystyried adolygiad o goridor gogledd Cymru yn ei gyfanrwydd, fel yr argymhellwyd yn adroddiad terfynol adolygiad cysylltedd yr undeb Llywodraeth y DU. Derbyniais yr argymhellion hynny, a'r wythnos diwethaf sefydlais gomisiwn trafnidiaeth gogledd Cymru, dan gadeiryddiaeth yr Arglwydd Burns.
Thank you. Llywydd, can I just put on record my disappointment that the Deputy Minister isn't in the Chamber to answer a topical question?
Diolch. Lywydd, a gaf fi gofnodi fy siom nad yw'r Dirprwy Weinidog yn y Siambr i ateb cwestiwn amserol?
No, you can't, I'm afraid. I say at the start of absolutely every meeting of this Senedd that all Members are able to participate virtually or in Plenary and they are to be treated equally and respected wherever they may be contributing from. Move on to your question.
Na, ni chewch wneud hynny, mae arnaf ofn. Rwy'n dweud ar ddechrau pob cyfarfod o'r Senedd hon y gall pob Aelod gymryd rhan yn rhithwir neu fynychu'r Cyfarfod Llawn ac y dylid eu trin yn gyfartal a'u parchu ni waeth pa ffordd y byddant yn cyfrannu. Ewch ymlaen at eich cwestiwn.
Okay. Well, I look forward to the day when he's—
Iawn. Wel, edrychaf ymlaen at y diwrnod pan fydd—
Move on to your question. If it's important to you, ask it.
Ewch ymlaen at eich cwestiwn. Os yw'n bwysig i chi, gofynnwch y cwestiwn.
Okay. It will come as no surprise, Deputy Minister, that I rise to challenge you on your decision to scrap the roundabout removal schemes on junctions 15 and 16 of the A55. These schemes have been on the table since 2017, involving many costly assessments. Indeed, to date, the project has cost our taxpayers approximately £9 million. There was even going to be a public inquiry last September until I actually raised your own review with you, because this engagement process was planned. And when I brought it to your attention, you actually scrapped that, then.
Now, the Welsh Government's own report highlights safety concerns as junctions are not compliant with current design standards; traffic delays as a result of poor network resilience; a lack of suitable diversion routes in case of tunnel maintenance, road repairs and accidents on the A55, all of which we know happen far too frequently; poor sustainable travel options; poor coastal access and safety—safety—for pedestrians and cyclists. As part of the schemes, some recently built new houses were actually considered for demolition, leaving many residents in limbo over all these years. Despite repeated claims by you on the cancellation of other schemes, you've been citing that this is all in the name of climate change objectives.
Well, let me tell you, this is not the case here. The queues on the roads joining the roundabouts will continue. Cars idling, emitting volumes of carbon monoxide, affecting the quality of the very air that we breathe—and when I say 'we', my constituents. Deputy Minister, perhaps you will explain to the Senedd and my constituents why you have wasted £9 million only then to do a u-turn. What solutions will you now be putting in place to alleviate all the current problems and issues that have actually been cited in your own scheme assessment reports? Diolch, Llywydd.
Iawn. Ni fydd yn syndod, Ddirprwy Weinidog, fy mod yn codi i herio eich penderfyniad i roi'r gorau i'r cynlluniau i gael gwared ar gylchfannau ar gyffyrdd 15 ac 16 yr A55. Mae'r cynlluniau hyn wedi bod ar y gweill ers 2017, ac wedi bod yn destun llawer o asesiadau costus. Yn wir, hyd yma, mae'r prosiect wedi costio tua £9 miliwn i'n trethdalwyr. Roedd bwriad i gynnal ymchwiliad cyhoeddus fis Medi diwethaf tan imi ofyn i chi am eich adolygiad eich hun, oherwydd roedd y broses ymgysylltu wedi ei chynllunio. A phan dynnais eich sylw ato, fe wnaethoch roi'r gorau i hynny wedyn.
Nawr, mae adroddiad Llywodraeth Cymru ei hun yn tynnu sylw at bryderon diogelwch gan nad yw cyffyrdd yn cydymffurfio â'r safonau dylunio presennol; oedi traffig o ganlyniad i ddiffyg cadernid y rhwydwaith; diffyg llwybrau gwyro addas pan fo angen cynnal a chadw twneli, trwsio ffyrdd a damweiniau ar yr A55, a gwyddom fod pob un ohonynt yn digwydd yn llawer rhy aml; dewisiadau teithio cynaliadwy gwael; mynediad gwael at yr arfordir a diogelwch—diogelwch—i gerddwyr a beicwyr. Fel rhan o'r cynlluniau, ystyriwyd dymchwel tai newydd a adeiladwyd yn ddiweddar, gan adael llawer o drigolion mewn limbo dros yr holl flynyddoedd hyn. Er gwaethaf honiadau mynych gennych chi ynglŷn â diddymu cynlluniau eraill, rydych wedi bod yn nodi bod hyn i gyd yn enw amcanion newid hinsawdd.
Wel, gadewch imi ddweud wrthych, nid yw hyn yn wir yma. Bydd y ciwiau ar y ffyrdd sy'n ymuno â'r cylchfannau yn parhau. Ceir yn segur, yn rhyddhau carbon monocsid, sy'n effeithio ar ansawdd yr union aer a anadlwn—a phan ddywedaf 'ni', fy etholwyr. Ddirprwy Weinidog, efallai y gwnewch egluro i'r Senedd a fy etholwyr pam eich bod wedi gwastraffu £9 miliwn cyn gwneud tro pedol. Pa atebion y byddwch yn eu rhoi ar waith yn awr i leddfu'r holl broblemau cyfredol, problemau a nodwyd yn eich adroddiadau asesu cynllun eich hun mewn gwirionedd? Diolch, Lywydd.
Well, Llywydd, it's not four months since I joined Janet Finch-Saunders on the steps of the Senedd to send a strong message to world leaders at the Conference of the Parties on the need to take dramatic action to tackle climate change. I've heard many times in the Chamber Janet Finch-Saunders lecture me how the Welsh Government wasn't going far enough, wasn't going fast enough to deal with the climate and nature emergencies. I would say to her, with the greatest of respect, that it's no good signing up to declarations then to run away from the actions that follow from that.
In order to meet our 2050 target, we need to cut carbon emissions in the next decade by 63 per cent. That includes achieving modal shift. We have a target set out in the Wales transport strategy of achieving 45 per cent of journeys by sustainable transport by 2045, up from 32 per cent now. That requires us to do things differently. That's why I set up the roads review panel, and they are patiently going through each of the 50 schemes currently in development, and agreed, because of the public inquiry—and I would note it didn't take her to tell me there was a public inquiry for me to spot that fact—but, because there was a public inquiry, we fast-tracked this scheme, and one other scheme, through the process so that an early decision could be made. The independent panel has now published its full report, and that is available for everyone to read, and they go through, in detail, their reasons. And they concluded, on the issue of safety, that the proposed grade-separated junctions replacing two roundabout junctions, would create little absolute improvement to the collision record. She rightly says that, in peak season, there are particular problems on the A55 around capacity, but they are limited to the high tourist season. The report also said, I'm quoting:
'The aim of the scheme is not in alignment with the sustainable transport hierarchy, the mode share targets, or increasing the proportion of freight moved by sustainable modes.'
Now, that's there in black and white, in the conclusion of the report, commissioned precisely because I was doing as she asked me to do, which is to respond to the climate emergency and to recognise the impact that transport plays in that—17 per cent of our emissions are from transport.
Now, I recognise there will be some people who are disappointed, and others locally who objected to the scheme who will be less disappointed. On the question of cost, indeed, there has been sunk costs into this. It will not be entirely wasted. The studies and the work underpinning them will be valuable for the Burns commission north in its work. And I see little logic in continuing spend on a project that was set to cost more than £75 million simply because we'd begun work looking at assessments—that makes no sense to me at all. And the purpose of our work is to shift funding away from schemes that add to our carbon emissions in order to fund schemes that help us to reduce our carbon emissions.
And if we want to create real alternatives for her constituents, we have to invest in them, and that's what the Burns commission will set out to do. It'll set up a practical pipeline of projects of all modes—road, rail, bus and active travel—to deal with the problems along the A55 and across the whole of north Wales of congestion and poor air quality, as well as looking at our carbon targets. And it will set out, just as it did in south Wales—. And, bear in mind, for all the comments on the Conservative benches criticising our decision on the M4, the union connectivity review, set up by the UK Government—against the backdrop of the Prime Minister saying it was going to back him in suggesting the M4 should go ahead and how he was going to override devolution; all the usual chest-beating statements we now expect from the Prime Minister—the union connectivity report looked at the options, it looked at the Burns recommendations for the south, it looked at the M4, and it concluded that the right way forward was the Burns recommendations for the south. I have every confidence that, over the next year, they will do similar work in the north to create a pipeline of schemes that'll make things better, which we can then all commit to work together to implement.
Wel, Lywydd, nid oes pedwar mis wedi bod ers i mi ymuno â Janet Finch-Saunders ar risiau'r Senedd i anfon neges gref at arweinwyr y byd yng Nghynhadledd y Partïon ar yr angen i roi camau dramatig ar waith i fynd i'r afael â newid hinsawdd. Mae Janet Finch-Saunders wedi pregethu yn y Siambr droeon nad yw Llywodraeth Cymru yn mynd yn ddigon pell, nad yw'n symud yn ddigon cyflym i ymdrin â'r argyfwng hinsawdd a'r argyfwng natur. Hoffwn ddweud wrthi, gyda'r parch mwyaf, nad oes diben cefnogi datganiadau os ydych am droi cefn ar y camau sy'n dilyn o hynny.
Er mwyn cyrraedd ein targed ar gyfer 2050, mae angen inni leihau allyriadau carbon 63 y cant yn ystod y degawd nesaf. Mae hynny'n cynnwys sicrhau ein bod yn newid dulliau teithio. Mae gennym darged a nodir yn strategaeth drafnidiaeth Cymru i gyflawni 45 y cant o deithiau drwy drafnidiaeth gynaliadwy erbyn 2045, i fyny o 32 y cant yn awr. Mae hynny'n golygu bod angen inni wneud pethau'n wahanol. Dyna pam y sefydlais y panel adolygu ffyrdd, ac maent yn edrych yn amyneddgar ar bob un o'r 50 cynllun sy'n cael eu datblygu ar hyn o bryd, a chytuno, oherwydd yr ymchwiliad cyhoeddus—a byddwn yn nodi nad oedd angen iddi ddweud wrthyf fod yna ymchwiliad cyhoeddus imi nodi'r ffaith honno—ond oherwydd bod ymchwiliad cyhoeddus, fe wnaethom gyflymu'r cynllun hwn, ac un cynllun arall, drwy'r broses fel y gellid gwneud penderfyniad cynnar. Mae'r panel annibynnol bellach wedi cyhoeddi ei adroddiad llawn, ac mae hwnnw ar gael i bawb ei ddarllen, ac maent yn nodi eu rhesymau yn fanwl ynddo. A daethant i'r casgliad, ar fater diogelwch, na fyddai'r cyffyrdd aml-lefel arfaethedig a fyddai'n cymryd lle dwy gyffordd gylchfan, yn arwain at fawr o welliant i'r nifer o ddamweiniau Mae'n dweud, yn gywir, fod problemau capasiti penodol ar yr A55 ar adegau prysur, ond eu bod wedi'u cyfyngu i'r tymor twristiaid. Dywedodd yr adroddiad hefyd, ac rwy'n dyfynnu:
'Nid yw nod y cynllun yn gydnaws â'r hierarchaeth trafnidiaeth gynaliadwy, y targedau o ran cyfrannau dulliau teithio, na'r nod o gynyddu cyfran y nwyddau a gludir drwy ddulliau cynaliadwy.'
Nawr, mae hynny yno mewn du a gwyn, yng nghasgliad yr adroddiad, a gomisiynwyd oherwydd fy mod yn gwneud fel y gofynnodd hi i mi ei wneud, sef ymateb i'r argyfwng hinsawdd a chydnabod effaith trafnidiaeth yn hynny—mae 17 y cant o'n hallyriadau yn deillio o drafnidiaeth.
Nawr, rwy'n cydnabod y bydd rhai pobl yn siomedig, a bydd eraill yn lleol a wrthwynebodd y cynllun yn llai siomedig. Ar fater y gost, do, mae arian wedi'i wario ar hyn na ellir ei adfer. Ni fydd yn wastraff llwyr. Bydd yr astudiaethau a'r gwaith sy'n sail iddynt yn werthfawr i gomisiwn Burns yn ei waith yn y gogledd. Ac ni welaf lawer o bwynt parhau i wario ar brosiect a oedd i fod i gostio mwy na £75 miliwn am ddim rheswm gwell na bod y gwaith o edrych ar asesiadau wedi dechrau—nid yw hynny'n gwneud synnwyr i mi o gwbl. A diben ein gwaith yw symud cyllid oddi wrth gynlluniau sy'n ychwanegu at ein hallyriadau carbon er mwyn ariannu cynlluniau sy'n ein helpu i leihau ein hallyriadau carbon.
Ac os ydym eisiau creu dewisiadau amgen go iawn i'w hetholwyr hi, rhaid inni fuddsoddi ynddynt, a dyna mae comisiwn Burns yn bwriadu ei wneud. Bydd yn sefydlu llif ymarferol o brosiectau o bob math—ffyrdd, rheilffyrdd, bysiau a theithio llesol—i ymdrin â'r problemau ar hyd yr A55 ac ar draws gogledd Cymru gyfan gyda thagfeydd ac ansawdd aer gwael, yn ogystal ag edrych ar ein targedau carbon. A bydd yn nodi, yn union fel y gwnaeth yn ne Cymru—. A chofiwch, er yr holl sylwadau ar feinciau'r Ceidwadwyr yn beirniadu ein penderfyniad ar yr M4, edrychodd adolygiad cysylltedd yr undeb a sefydlwyd gan Lywodraeth y DU—gyda Phrif Weinidog y DU yn dweud y byddai'r adolygiad yn ei gefnogi ef drwy awgrymu y dylai cynllun yr M4 fynd rhagddo a sut y byddai'n diystyru datganoli; yr holl ddatganiadau ymffrostgar arferol yr ydym yn eu disgwyl bellach gan y Prif Weinidog—edrychodd adroddiad cysylltedd yr undeb ar yr opsiynau, edrychodd ar argymhellion Burns ar gyfer y de, edrychodd ar yr M4, a daeth i'r casgliad mai'r ffordd gywir ymlaen oedd argymhellion Burns ar gyfer y de. Rwy'n hyderus y byddant, dros y flwyddyn nesaf, yn gwneud gwaith tebyg yn y gogledd i greu llif o gynlluniau a fydd yn gwneud pethau'n well, a gallwn i gyd ymrwymo wedyn i gydweithio er mwyn eu gweithredu.
The question the Conservatives should be asking isn't how do we stop cars from idling, it's how do we stop cars getting on the road in the first place. And the Deputy Minister is right. It's the broader question here of: are we serious about climate change? And if we are, then are we serious about modal shift and reducing people's overdependence on cars? Are we serious that that is part of the answer? And if we are, then it does mean that things have to change, and there will be fewer big, expensive road schemes. But, just as important, of course, turning to the Deputy Minister, we also need to see investment happening into those alternatives. So, the question isn't what can we do to revive these proposed schemes, but what can we do to address the same issues in a different way. I welcome, therefore, the commission to be led by Lord Burns, and it's probably at the end of that process that we decide whether this is the right decision or not, because it's only at the end of the process will we see and understand what the alternatives are.
So, I'd like to ask: does the Deputy Minister agree with me that it's absolutely key, as part of this process and the wider, ongoing process of the reviewing roads project, that there's absolute transparency and clarity around how these decisions are being made and that there's absolute consistency as well, in terms of the criteria and the factors considered from project to project, albeit within their own individual contexts, because, otherwise, people will be right to be concerned and sceptical about what the real motives are?
Yn hytrach na gofyn sut y mae atal ceir rhag segura, dylai'r Ceidwadwyr fod yn gofyn sut y mae atal ceir rhag mynd ar y ffordd yn y lle cyntaf. Ac mae'r Dirprwy Weinidog yn iawn. Y cwestiwn ehangach yma yw: a ydym o ddifrif ynglŷn â newid hinsawdd? Ac os ydym, a ydym o ddifrif ynghylch newid dulliau teithio a lleihau gorddibyniaeth pobl ar geir? A ydym o ddifrif fod hynny'n rhan o'r ateb? Ac os ydym, mae'n golygu bod yn rhaid i bethau newid, a bydd llai o gynlluniau ffordd mawr, drud. Ond yr un mor bwysig, wrth gwrs, gan droi at y Dirprwy Weinidog, mae angen inni hefyd weld buddsoddiad yn digwydd yn y dewisiadau amgen hynny. Felly, yn hytrach na gofyn beth y gallwn ei wneud i adfywio'r cynlluniau arfaethedig hyn, dylem ofyn beth y gallwn ei wneud i fynd i'r afael â'r un materion mewn ffordd wahanol. Rwy'n croesawu'r ffaith y bydd y comisiwn yn cael ei arwain gan yr Arglwydd Burns, ac mae'n debyg mai ar ddiwedd y broses honno y byddwn yn penderfynu ai dyma'r penderfyniad cywir ai peidio, am mai ar ddiwedd y broses yn unig y byddwn yn gweld ac yn deall beth yw'r dewisiadau amgen.
Felly, hoffwn ofyn: a yw'r Dirprwy Weinidog yn cytuno â mi ei bod yn gwbl allweddol, fel rhan o'r broses hon a phroses barhaus ehangach y prosiect adolygu ffyrdd, fod tryloywder ac eglurder llwyr ynghylch y modd y gwneir y penderfyniadau hyn a bod cysondeb llwyr hefyd mewn perthynas â'r meini prawf a'r ffactorau a ystyrir o brosiect i brosiect, er o fewn eu cyd-destunau unigol eu hunain, oherwydd, fel arall, bydd pobl yn iawn i fod yn bryderus ac yn amheus ynglŷn â beth yw'r cymhellion go iawn?
Well, I'd like to thank Llyr Gruffydd for his supportive comments and his endorsement of the broad approach that we are taking. And it will be right that there'll be a role for challenge and scrutiny of all of this, and it's important that the Burns commission operates in that way, as it did in the south, as, indeed, the roads review is. The roads review is putting all of this information in the public domain for people to see its reasoning, for us to scrutinise it. The Burns commission will be publishing an interim report, which will be available, to engage with stakeholders, just as they did in their work around Newport. I've already had conversations with the leaders of the three councils in the area affected in the north to get their views on this, to ask them for suggestions of who should serve on the commission and to talk to them about the way ahead. So, I agree with him that transparency and consistency are important, but just as the importance of being willing follow through our words with actions.
Wel, hoffwn ddiolch i Llyr Gruffydd am ei sylwadau cefnogol a'i gymeradwyaeth i'r dull gweithredu cyffredinol yr ydym yn ei fabwysiadu. Ac mae'r ffaith y bydd yna rôl i herio a chraffu ar hyn i gyd yn iawn, ac mae'n bwysig fod comisiwn Burns yn gweithredu yn y modd hwnnw, fel y gwnaeth yn y de, fel y mae'r adolygiad ffyrdd yn ei wneud yn wir. Mae'r adolygiad ffyrdd yn sicrhau bod yr holl wybodaeth hon ar gael i'r cyhoedd er mwyn i bobl weld ei resymeg, er mwyn inni graffu arno. Bydd comisiwn Burns yn cyhoeddi adroddiad interim, a fydd ar gael, i ymgysylltu â rhanddeiliaid, yn union fel y gwnaethant yn eu gwaith o amgylch Casnewydd. Rwyf eisoes wedi cael sgyrsiau gydag arweinwyr y tri chyngor yn yr ardal yr effeithir arni yn y gogledd i gael eu barn ar hyn, i ofyn iddynt am awgrymiadau ynghylch pwy a ddylai wasanaethu ar y comisiwn a siarad â hwy am y ffordd ymlaen. Felly, rwy'n cytuno bod tryloywder a chysondeb yn bwysig, ond mae'r un mor bwysig ein bod yn barod i gefnogi ein geiriau â gweithredoedd.
Diolch i'r Dirprwy Weinidog.
I thank the Deputy Minister.
Yr eitem nesaf, felly, yw'r datganiadau 90 eiliad, a'r datganiad heddiw gan Jane Dodds.
The next item, therefore, is the 90-second statements, and today's statement comes from Jane Dodds.
Diolch, Llywydd. This Friday, 18 February, is international Care Day, celebrating care-experienced children and young people. Too often, young people tell us that they are made to feel like they don't belong, so the theme of this year is 'Together we create community,' celebrating the strength of the care-experienced community and highlighting the importance of ensuring that every child and young person is able to play a full part in their communities.
To mark Care Day on Friday, care-experienced young people from across Wales will meet virtually to create a time capsule and, over the coming year, Voices from Care Cymru and their partners will be inviting all Members of the Senedd to meet care-experienced children and young people in our own constituencies and regions, so that we can get to know them, so that they can get to know us as well, and that we can play our part in building that sense of belonging that care-experienced children and young people tell us that they need. The time capsule will make a record of what they feel needs to change to allow them and other care-experienced children and young people to really thrive, and they will open the capsule in five years' time so that they and we can see what has changed.
Finally, I sincerely hope that the brilliant universal basic income pilot announced by the Government will transform the lives of those care leavers who are able to take part in the pilot. So, on Friday, please show your support for our care community; after all, they are children in our care. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Diolch, Lywydd. Y dydd Gwener hwn, 18 Chwefror, yw Diwrnod Gofal Rhyngwladol, sy'n dathlu plant a phobl ifanc sydd â phrofiad o fod mewn gofal. Yn rhy aml, mae pobl ifanc yn dweud wrthym eu bod yn cael eu gwneud i deimlo nad ydynt yn perthyn, felly y thema eleni yw 'Gyda'n gilydd, rydym yn creu cymuned,' gan ddathlu cryfder y gymuned sydd â phrofiad o fod mewn gofal ac amlygu pwysigrwydd sicrhau bod pob plentyn a pherson ifanc yn gallu chwarae rhan lawn yn eu cymunedau.
I nodi Diwrnod Gofal Rhyngwladol ddydd Gwener, bydd pobl ifanc sydd â phrofiad o fod mewn gofal o bob cwr o Gymru yn cyfarfod yn rhithwir i greu capsiwl amser, a thros y flwyddyn nesaf, bydd Voices from Care Cymru a'u partneriaid yn gwahodd holl Aelodau'r Senedd i gwrdd â phlant a phobl ifanc sydd â phrofiad o fod mewn gofal yn ein hetholaethau a'n rhanbarthau ein hunain, er mwyn inni ddod i'w hadnabod, er mwyn iddynt hwy ddod i'n hadnabod ninnau hefyd, ac er mwyn inni allu chwarae ein rhan yn adeiladu'r ymdeimlad o berthyn y mae plant a phobl ifanc sydd â phrofiad o fod mewn gofal yn dweud wrthym eu bod ei angen. Bydd y capsiwl amser yn cofnodi'r hyn y teimlant fod angen ei newid i'w galluogi hwy a phlant a phobl ifanc eraill sydd â phrofiad o fod mewn gofal i ffynnu, a byddant yn agor y capsiwl ymhen pum mlynedd er mwyn iddynt hwy a ninnau weld beth sydd wedi newid.
Yn olaf, rwy'n mawr obeithio y bydd y cynllun peilot incwm sylfaenol cyffredinol gwych a gyhoeddwyd gan y Llywodraeth yn trawsnewid bywydau'r rhai sy'n gadael gofal sy'n gallu cymryd rhan yn y peilot. Felly, ddydd Gwener, dangoswch eich cefnogaeth i'n cymuned ofal; wedi'r cyfan, plant yn ein gofal ni ydynt. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Diolch yn fawr am y datganiad yna, a nawr byddwn ni'n cymryd toriad byr er mwyn paratoi ar gyfer ambell i newid yn y Siambr. Toriad, felly.
Thank you very much for that statement, and we'll take a short break to prepare for some changeovers in the Siambr. A short break.
Ataliwyd y Cyfarfod Llawn am 15:23.
Plenary was suspended at 15:23.
Ailymgynullodd y Senedd am 15:31, gyda'r Llywydd yn y Gadair.
The Senedd reconvened at 15:31, with the Llywydd in the Chair.
Yr eitem nesaf yw dadl Aelodau o dan Reol Sefydlog 11.21(iv) ar etholiadau llywodraeth leol. Dwi'n galw ar Rhys ab Owen i wneud y cynnig yma.
The next item is a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv) on local government elections, and I call on Rhys ab Owen to move the motion.
Cynnig NDM7881 Rhys ab Owen, Llyr Gruffydd, Jane Dodds
Cefnogwyd gan Cefin Campbell, Heledd Fychan, Luke Fletcher, Mabon ap Gwynfor, Peredur Owen Griffiths, Rhun ap Iorwerth, Siân Gwenllian, Sioned Williams
Cynnig bod y Senedd:
1. Yn nodi:
a) bod Deddf Llywodraeth Leol ac Etholiadau Cymru 2021 yn ymestyn yr hawl i bleidleisio i bobl ifanc 16 ac 17 oed a dinasyddion tramor sy'n preswylio'n gyfreithlon yng Nghymru, yn sicrhau dyletswydd i annog pobl leol i gymryd rhan mewn llywodraeth leol, ac yn galluogi cynghorau i gael gwared ar system y cyntaf i'r felin i ethol cynghorwyr;
b) y defnyddir system fwy cyfrannol mewn etholiadau lleol yn yr Alban, gan leihau nifer y seddi lle nad oes cystadleuaeth, a sicrhau bod pob pleidlais yn cyfrif.
2. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i weithio'n agos gyda chynghorau newydd a etholir ym mis Mai 2022 i sicrhau bod dull mwy cynrychioliadol a system genedlaethol unffurf yn cael eu defnyddio i ethol cynghorwyr ledled Cymru erbyn 2027.
Motion NDM7881 Rhys ab Owen, Llyr Gruffydd, Jane Dodds
Supported by Cefin Campbell, Heledd Fychan, Luke Fletcher, Mabon ap Gwynfor, Peredur Owen Griffiths, Rhun ap Iorwerth, Siân Gwenllian, Sioned Williams
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes:
a) the Local Government and Elections Wales Act 2021 extends the voting franchise to 16 and 17 year olds and foreign citizens legally resident in Wales, ensures a duty to encourage local people to participate in local government, and enables councils to scrap the first-past-the-post system to elect councillors;
b) a more proportional system is used in local elections in Scotland, reducing the number of uncontested seats, and ensuring that all votes count.
2. Calls on the Welsh Government to work closely with new councils elected in May 2022 to ensure that a more representative method and a uniform national system is used to elect councillors across Wales by 2027.
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
Diolch yn fawr ichi, Llywydd. Fel y gwyddoch chi, bawb yn y Siambr hon, gair Groegaidd yw 'democratiaeth'. Gwraidd y gair yw'r geiriau 'demos' a 'kratia' sy'n golygu 'rheolaeth gan y bobl'. Ond meddylfryd 'winner takes all' sy'n dra arglwyddiaethu yng Nghymru ac yn enwedig yn Lloegr ar hyn o bryd—system lle mae un blaid yn dueddol o ennill popeth, a'r lleill yn dueddol o golli'r cwbl. Mae hyn yn arwain felly at y mwyafrif o bobl yn teimlo mai gwastraff amser llwyr yw eu pleidlais ac nad yw taro'r groes yn y blwch yn gwneud unrhyw wahaniaeth o gwbl.
I ddangos nad ydw i'n ceisio gwneud pwynt pleidiol fan hyn, gadewch inni ddechrau gyda Chyngor Gwynedd nôl yn 2017. Yn yr etholiad yna, enillodd Plaid Cymru 55 y cant o'r seddi drwy dderbyn dim ond 39 y cant o'r bleidlais. Yn sir Fynwy, enillodd ein cyfaill Peter Fox a'r Torïaid 58 y cant o'r seddi gydag ond 46 y cant o'r bleidlais. Ac yma yng Nghaerdydd, enillodd Llafur 52 y cant o'r seddi gyda 39 y cant o'r bleidlais. Ac er mwyn i fi gynnwys pawb yn y Senedd yma, fe aeth y tair sedd yn y ward lle ces i fy ngeni, ym Mhen-y-lan yng Nghaerdydd, i’r Rhyddfrydwyr—pob un o'r seddi, ond dim ond 25 y cant o'r bleidlais.
Term sydd wedi ei drwytho ynom ni, y Cymry, yn ein ideoleg ni ac yn ein ieithwedd ni, yw 'chwarae teg'.
Thank you very much, Llywydd. As everyone in this Chamber will know, 'democracy' comes from the Greek. It stems from the words 'demos' and 'kratia' that mean 'control by the people'. But the 'winner takes all' mentality dominates in Wales, and particularly in England at the moment—a system where one party takes the spoils, and the others are left empty-handed. This therefore leads to the majority feeling that their vote was a waste of time and that casting that vote had no impact whatsoever.
To prove that I'm not seeking to make a party political point here, let me start with Gwynedd Council back in 2017. In that election, Plaid Cymru won 55 per cent of the seats with just 39 per cent of the vote. In Monmouthshire, our colleague Peter Fox and the Conservatives won 58 per cent of the seats with just 46 per cent of the vote. And here in Cardiff, Labour won 52 per cent of the seats with 39 per cent of the vote. And to ensure that no-one in this Senedd is left out, the three seats in the ward where I was born, in Penylan in Cardiff, went to the Liberal Democrats—each seat taken with just 25 per cent of the vote.
The term 'chwarae teg' is an integral part of Welsh phraseology and ideology.
You will hear non-Welsh speakers use the word, whilst speaking English—'chwarae teg', fair play. This current system is certainly not fair play. We have in Wales today parties that fall far short of gaining half of the electorate's vote, but gain control of 100 per cent of the executive. I'm confident that each Member of this Senedd are far more of a democrat than any party allegiance. For democracy to flourish in Wales, and to be engaging of the people of Wales, it needs to be far more representative and more reflective of our communities.
Fe fyddwch yn clywed pobl ddi-Gymraeg, wrth siarad Saesneg, yn defnyddio'r term 'chwarae teg'. Yn sicr, nid oes chwarae teg yn y system bresennol. Mae gennym bleidiau yng Nghymru heddiw sy’n ennill llai o lawer na hanner y bleidlais, ond sy’n ennill rheolaeth ar 100 y cant o’r weithrediaeth. Rwy’n hyderus fod pob Aelod o’r Senedd hon yn llawer mwy o ddemocrat nag unrhyw deyrngarwch pleidiol. Er mwyn i ddemocratiaeth ffynnu yng Nghymru, ac er mwyn ymgysylltu â phobl Cymru, mae angen iddi fod yn llawer mwy cynrychioliadol o'n cymunedau, a'u hadlewyrchu'n well.
Fel dywed yr hen ddihareb Cymraeg, cymuned o gymunedau yw Cymru, ond er mwyn i ddemocratiaeth fod yn gadarn yn ein gwlad ni, mae'n rhaid i gymunedau deimlo eu bod nhw'n cael eu cynrychioli a bod eu lleisiau yn cael eu clywed a'u gwrando.
Wales is often described as a community of communities, but if democracy is to be strong in our nation, our communities must feel that they are represented and that their voices are listened to and heard.
Yes, I'll take an intervention.
Gwnaf, fe dderbyniaf ymyriad.
Intervention, Gareth Davies.
Ymyriad, Gareth Davies.
Diolch, Rhys. Looking at the details of the motion, it says,
'reducing the number of uncontested seats'.
How would changing the voting system achieve that when it's usually down to the members or the parties to decide who fills which seats?
Diolch, Rhys. Wrth edrych ar fanylion y cynnig, mae’n dweud,
'lleihau nifer y seddi lle nad oes cystadleuaeth'.
Sut y byddai newid y system bleidleisio yn cyflawni hynny pan fo pwy sy'n llenwi pa seddi yn fater i'r aelodau neu'r pleidiau ei benderfynu fel arfer?
If you listen for a bit longer, Gareth Davies, you'll find out—I'm about to get to that point.
Os gwrandewch am ychydig eto, Gareth Davies, fe gewch wybod—rwyf ar fin dod at hynny.
Fel dywed yr hen ddihareb, cymuned o gymunedau, ond mae'n rhaid bod eu lleisiau nhw yn cael eu gwrando.
Wales is a community of communities, but we must ensure that people's voices are heard and listened to.
One more example from the 2017 local elections: in the Whitchurch and Tongwynlais ward in the north of Cardiff, the Conservative Party won all four seats, even though 60 per cent of the voters did not vote Conservative. One hundred per cent of the seats, only 40 per cent of the vote; 4,092 votes in that one ward were wasted. This should not be about party politics, this should not be about gaining power; it should be about fairness. If we call ourselves democrats, we should want the vast majority of ballot papers to really count. A proportional system is the only way of achieving this. It allows for the flourishing of plurality, plurality of choice, plurality of votes and a plurality of outcomes.
Un enghraifft arall o etholiadau lleol 2017: yn ward yr Eglwys Newydd a Thongwynlais yng ngogledd Caerdydd, enillodd y Blaid Geidwadol y pedair sedd, er na phleidleisiodd 60 y cant o’r pleidleiswyr dros y Ceidwadwyr. Pob un sedd, 40 y cant yn unig o'r bleidlais, cafodd 4,092 o bleidleisiau yn yr un ward honno eu gwastraffu. Ni ddylai hyn ymwneud â gwleidyddiaeth bleidiol, ni ddylai hyn ymwneud ag ennill pŵer, dylai ymwneud â thegwch. Os ydym yn galw ein hunain yn ddemocratiaid, dylem fod eisiau i fwyafrif helaeth y papurau pleidleisio gyfrif. System gyfrannol yw'r unig ffordd o gyflawni hyn. Mae'n caniatáu i luosogaeth ffynnu, lluosogaeth o ran dewis, lluosogaeth o ran pleidleisiau a lluosogaeth o ran canlyniadau.
Dwi'n falch bod Deddf Llywodraeth Leol ac Etholiadau (Cymru) 2021 yn galluogi system fwy cyfrannog i gael ei defnyddio mewn etholiadau lleol o fis Mai yma ymlaen. Ond mae angen arweiniad cenedlaethol arnom ni neu fe ddaw yr hen cliché diflas Saesneg, turkeys voting for Christmas i'r meddwl.
I'm pleased that the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 enables a more proportional system to be adopted in local elections from this May onwards. But we need national leadership, or the old cliché of turkeys voting for Christmas comes to mind.
Scotland—and I'm coming to your point shortly, Gareth—Scotland introduced a single transferrable vote system in 2007 across all local authorities, and the change has been dramatic. Consensus has become the rule of the day, with councillors working co-operatively to benefit their constituents. Furthermore, local democracy has been strengthened. In 2003, in Scotland, 61 seats were uncontested, and what is the figure now, Gareth? Sixty-one uncontested in 2003; the answer now, Gareth, is zero. Every seat in Scotland, since proportional representation, has been contested.
Now, in Wales, in 2017—bear me with me for a second, Sam—nearly 100 councillors stood unchallenged here in Wales, with one councillor in Powys remaining unchallenged for 37 years. That man now has been a councillor for nearly 40 years, and not once has he faced an opponent. [Interruption.] Yes, I'll take an intervention.
Yr Alban—ac rwy’n dod at eich pwynt cyn bo hir, Gareth—cyflwynodd yr Alban system y bleidlais sengl drosglwyddadwy yn 2007 ar draws pob awdurdod lleol, ac mae’r newid wedi bod yn ddramatig. Mae consensws wedi dod yn rhywbeth arferol, gyda chynghorwyr yn gweithio ar y cyd er budd eu hetholwyr. Yn ogystal â hynny, mae democratiaeth leol wedi’i chryfhau. Yn 2003, yn yr Alban, roedd 61 sedd ddiymgeisydd, a beth yw’r ffigwr bellach, Gareth? Chwe deg un sedd ddiymgeisydd yn 2003; yr ateb nawr, Gareth, yw dim un. Mae pob sedd yn yr Alban, ers cyflwyno cynrychiolaeth gyfrannol, wedi cael ei hymladd.
Nawr, yng Nghymru, yn 2017—maddeuwch i mi am eiliad, Sam—safodd bron i 100 o gynghorwyr yn ddiwrthwynebiad yma yng Nghymru, gydag un cynghorydd ym Mhowys yn parhau'n ddiwrthwynebiad ers 37 mlynedd. Mae’r dyn hwnnw bellach wedi bod yn gynghorydd ers bron i 40 mlynedd, heb wynebu'r un gwrthwynebydd. [Torri ar draws.] Gwnaf, fe dderbyniaf ymyriad.
Thank you, Rhys. The points around Scotland and the STV coming in, you rightly pointed out the uncontested seats move. But, also, since STV's been there, electoral turnout has been significantly less. So, in the two years preceding STV, there was a turnout of around 54 per cent; since then, it's around 46 per cent. So, how would you support that in terms of engaging with local democracy, which is so vitally important, and starts with people coming out to vote?
Diolch, Rhys. Ar y pwyntiau ynglŷn â'r Alban a chyflwyno'r bleidlais sengl drosglwyddadwy, roeddech yn iawn i dynnu sylw at y newid mewn seddi diymgeisydd. Ond hefyd, ers cyflwyno'r bleidlais sengl drosglwyddadwy, mae'r ganran sy'n pleidleisio wedi bod yn sylweddol is. Felly, yn y ddwy flynedd cyn y bleidlais sengl drosglwyddadwy, roedd oddeutu 54 y cant yn pleidleisio, ac ers hynny, mae oddeutu 46 y cant yn pleidleisio. Felly, sut y byddech yn cefnogi hynny mewn perthynas ag ymgysylltu â democratiaeth leol, sydd mor hanfodol bwysig, ac sy'n dechrau gyda phobl yn dod allan i bleidleisio?
I'm glad you're reading out all your pre-prepared interventions already. Let me answer: this idea that turnouts are lower in PR is absolutely ridiculous. In Australia, it's nearly 100 per cent; Ukraine, it's over 90 per cent; Malta, it's over 90 per cent. Turnouts do not go down after introducing PR.
Rwy'n falch eich bod eisoes yn darllen eich holl ymyriadau a baratowyd ymlaen llaw. Gadewch imi ateb: mae'r syniad hwn fod y ganran sy'n pleidleisio yn is mewn system gynrychiolaeth gyfrannol yn gwbl chwerthinllyd. Yn Awstralia, mae bron yn 100 y cant; yn Wcrain, mae dros 90 y cant; ym Malta, mae dros 90 y cant. Nid yw'r ganran sy'n pleidleisio yn gostwng ar ôl cyflwyno cynrychiolaeth gyfrannol.
Mae pleidleisio cyntaf i'r felin yn arwain at bleidleisio tactegol, ac mae hynny yn ei hanian yn beth gwael, yn beth niweidiol i ddemocratiaeth. Pleidleisio i gadw rhywun mas, yn hytrach na phleidleisio dros bwy maen nhw wirioneddol ei eisiau. Pleidleisio dros blaid sy'n fwy yn aml, yn hytrach na phleidleisio dros blaid maen nhw'n wirioneddol eisiau ei chefnogi, fel y Gwyrddion er enghraifft.
First-past-the-post voting leads to tactical voting, which, in itself, is damaging to our democracy. A vote to keep something out rather than casting a positive vote for one's preference. A vote for a larger party very often, rather than a smaller party that they truly want to support, like the Greens for example.
We are limiting people's freedom to choose by keeping this archaic first-past-the-post system, which is now almost 150 years old. There is not only a moral argument to introducing a proportional system, there are strong practical reasons also. In England and Wales, many councils have single parties holding in excess of 75 per cent of the seats. This can give councils and administrations carte blanche on official business. This, in turn, leads to weakened accountability, which has an effect on public procurement, which in turn impacts the way taxpayers' money is spent.
One-party councils constitute a modern form of fiefdom, where scrutiny committees reviewing millions of pounds in government contracts hardly get scrutinised at all. The Electoral Reform Society, in 2015, found that single-party dominated councils were wasting as much as £2.6 billion a year due to lack of scrutiny. Decisions often in these councils are made pre-emptively, in private meetings with majority groups behind closed doors, and then sprung upon the rest of the council at short notice. Their vote, their opinion, their thoughts don't matter.
The ERS study further looked into thousands of public sector contracts and found that these one-party dominated councils were about 50 per cent more at risk of corruption than politically competitive councils. Bad for democracy, bad for voters and bad for the public purse. Dozens of countries have made the switch, and not one has made the switch back. Australia, New Zealand, Ukraine: they have shifted from first-past-the-post to a more proportional system.
Rydym yn cyfyngu ar ryddid pobl i ddewis drwy gadw system hynafol y cyntaf i’r felin, sydd bellach bron yn 150 mlwydd oed. Nid yn unig fod dadl foesol dros gyflwyno system gyfrannol, ceir rhesymau ymarferol cryf dros wneud hynny hefyd. Mewn llawer o gynghorau yng Nghymru a Lloegr, mae un blaid yn llenwi dros 75 y cant o'r seddi. Gall hyn roi rhwydd hynt i gynghorau a gweinyddiaethau mewn perthynas â busnes swyddogol. Yn ei dro, mae hyn yn arwain at lai o atebolrwydd, sy’n effeithio ar gaffael cyhoeddus, sydd yn ei dro yn effeithio ar y ffordd y gwerir arian trethdalwyr.
Mae cynghorau un blaid yn fath modern o faenoriaeth, lle na cheir fawr ddim craffu ar bwyllgorau craffu sy’n adolygu gwerth miliynau o bunnoedd o gontractau llywodraeth. Canfu’r Gymdeithas Diwygio Etholiadol, yn 2015, fod cynghorau un blaid yn gwastraffu cymaint â £2.6 biliwn y flwyddyn oherwydd diffyg craffu. Yn aml, caiff penderfyniadau yn y cynghorau hyn eu gwneud ymlaen llaw, mewn cyfarfodydd preifat gyda grwpiau mwyafrifol y tu ôl i ddrysau caeedig, cyn eu taflu at weddill y cyngor ar fyr rybudd. Nid yw eu pleidlais, eu barn, eu syniadau yn cyfrif.
Edrychodd astudiaeth y Gymdeithas Diwygio Etholiadol ymhellach ar filoedd o gontractau'r sector cyhoeddus a chanfu fod y cynghorau un blaid hyn oddeutu 50 y cant yn fwy tebygol o ymroi i arferion llwgr na chynghorau gwleidyddol gystadleuol. Mae hynny'n ddrwg i ddemocratiaeth, yn ddrwg i bleidleiswyr ac yn ddrwg i bwrs y wlad. Mae dwsinau o wledydd wedi gwneud y newid, ac nid oes unrhyw un wedi newid yn ôl. Awstralia, Seland Newydd, Wcrain: mae pob un ohonynt wedi newid o system y cyntaf i'r felin i system fwy cyfrannol.
A dwi'n edrych ymlaen at glywed cyfraniad fy nghyfaill Heledd Fychan mewn ychydig, o'i phrofiad hithau yng Ngweriniaeth Iwerddon. Pam does neb wedi symud yn ôl i'r system cyntaf i'r felin? Wel, oherwydd dyw'r system yna ddim yn ffit i ddemocratiaeth fodern. Mae'n rhaid inni symud o'r syniad bod gwleidyddiaeth yn frwydr, bod gan wleidyddiaeth enillwyr a chollwyr. Yn y teyrngedau hyfryd i Aled Roberts ddoe, gwnaeth pawb ei ddisgrifio fel gwleidydd trawsbleidiol, gwleidydd oedd yn barod i gydweithio ag eraill, a hynny sydd yn iawn, oherwydd proses, nid brwydr yw gwleidyddiaeth. Proses o rannu syniadau, proses o gydweithio, proses o adeiladu consensws rhwng grwpiau a phobl er mwyn ffeindio'r tir cyffredin yna er mwyn gwella bywydau pobl ein cymunedau ni.
And I look forward to hearing the contribution of my colleague Heledd Fychan, of her experiences in the Republic of Ireland. Why has no-one shifted back to the first-past-the-post system? Well, because that system isn't fit for a modern democracy. We must move away from the concept that politics is a battle with winners and losers. In the wonderful tributes paid to Aled Roberts yesterday, everyone described him as a consensual politician, a politician ready to collaborate with others, and that is as it should be, because politics is a process, not a battle. A process of sharing ideas, a process of collaboration, a process of consensus building between people and groups to find common ground in order to improve the lives of those living in our communities.
And this Senedd, as I'm pleased to see, has had co-operation at the heart of it from the beginning. There has never been a majority in this Senedd, with coalitions and co-operations being the rules of the game. And I'm glad, I'm glad to see that the Plaid Cymru and Labour co-operation is the latest incarnation of that. I know, during the election in 2021, many commentators and many politicians in England were surprised about this, but really this is a normal process. Co-operation is a normal process across many countries on these islands, across Europe and across the world. It leads to better governments.
As I previously said, I'm well aware that councils in Wales will have the choice to adopt another system if they so wish after this May's election. But this will create a two-tier system between councils, with certain ones willing to adopt and reform and others saying 'no'. Some of you in this Senedd now are probably old enough to remember when people had to cross county lines to have a pint on a Sunday. People from Hendy used to cross the Loughor bridge to have a pint in Pontarddulais. Well, something similar will happen again now. You'll have one village where the ballot paper really does count, really does make a difference, and a village over there where it doesn't as much.
Ac mae cydweithrediad, fel rwy’n falch o weld, wedi bod yn ganolog i'r Senedd hon o’r dechrau. Ni fu mwyafrif yn y Senedd hon erioed, gyda chlymbleidiau a chydweithredu yn rhan o'r patrwm arferol. Ac rwy’n falch o weld mai cytundeb cydweithio Plaid Cymru a Llafur yw’r ymgorfforiad diweddaraf o hynny. Yn ystod yr etholiad yn 2021, gwn fod llawer o sylwebwyr a llawer o wleidyddion yn Lloegr yn synnu at hyn, ond mae hon yn broses normal mewn gwirionedd. Mae cydweithredu'n broses normal mewn llawer o wledydd ar yr ynysoedd hyn, ledled Ewrop ac ar draws y byd. Mae'n arwain at lywodraethau gwell.
Fel rwyf wedi'i ddweud o'r blaen, rwy’n ymwybodol iawn y bydd cynghorau yng Nghymru yn cael dewis mabwysiadu system wahanol os ydynt yn dymuno gwneud hynny ar ôl yr etholiad ym mis Mai eleni. Ond bydd hyn yn creu system ddwy haen rhwng cynghorau, gyda rhai yn fodlon mabwysiadu a diwygio ac eraill yn dweud 'na'. Mae'n debyg fod rhai ohonoch yn y Senedd hon yn ddigon hen bellach i gofio pan oedd yn rhaid i bobl groesi ffiniau sirol i gael peint ar ddydd Sul. Roedd pobl o'r Hendy yn arfer croesi pont Llwchwr i gael peint ym Mhontarddulais. Wel, bydd rhywbeth tebyg yn digwydd eto yn awr. Bydd gennych un pentref lle mae'r papur pleidleisio yn cyfrif, yn gwneud gwahaniaeth gwirioneddol, a phentref draw acw lle nad yw'n cyfrif i'r un graddau.
Rydym ni'n aml yn clywed yn y lle hwn am y diffyg sy’n pleidleisio, ac mae apathi gwleidyddol yn amlwg yn ein gwlad. Mae Sam Rowlands yn aml yn sôn am y diffyg pobl sy'n pleidleisio yn etholiadau'r Senedd. Ond un ffordd o ddelio â hynny yw sicrhau bod democratiaeth Cymru yn cael ei hadlewyrchu llawer yn well yn ein llefydd grym ni.
In this place, we often hear about low voter turnout, and political apathy is all too apparent in Wales. Sam Rowlands often mentions low voter turnout for Senedd elections. But one way to address that is by ensuring that Welsh democracy reflects far better the views of the people in our places of power.
A good democracy reflects the choices of its voters, not just 40 per cent of them, but as many as possible. If we want to combat political apathy, we need to help people to maximise their votes and their voices.
Mae democratiaeth dda yn adlewyrchu dewisiadau ei phleidleiswyr, nid 40 y cant ohonynt yn unig, ond cymaint ohonynt â phosibl. Os ydym am frwydro yn erbyn difaterwch gwleidyddol, mae angen inni helpu pobl i wneud y gorau o'u pleidleisiau a'u lleisiau.
Dywedodd John Stuart Mill—.
John Stuart Mill said—.
John Stuart Mill said, back in 1861, that the first principle of democracy is this: representation in proportion to the numbers. Today, let us, in this Senedd, not allow outdated ideas, not allow prejudices, not allow the ambition for power to block this very basic principle of democracy. Diolch yn fawr.
Dywedodd John Stuart Mill, yn ôl ym 1861, mai egwyddor gyntaf democratiaeth yw hyn: cynrychiolaeth yn gyfrannol â’r niferoedd. Heddiw, gadewch i ni, yn y Senedd hon, beidio â chaniatáu syniadau hen ffasiwn, peidio â chaniatáu rhagfarnau, peidio â chaniatáu i’r uchelgais am bŵer rwystro’r egwyddor ddemocrataidd sylfaenol hon. Diolch yn fawr.
Thank you to Rhys ab Owen for submitting today's Member's debate, and also to Llyr Gruffydd and Jane Dodds for co-submitting. I'd better declare an interest as a sitting county councillor in Conwy County Borough Council at this point.
As many Members will know, I'm a keen enthusiast of local government, and I'm delighted that this important area has been raised in the Senedd, here today. I'll be honest, I wasn't quite so keen when I saw the content of the debate in front of us though. As the motion states, the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 ensures a duty to encourage local people to participate in local government. I'm sure we'd all agree how crucial this is—to see many people engage. And I still have yet to hear how a reduction in voter turnout in Scotland since STV has been introduced is a good thing for local democracy. But perhaps the Member will want to explain that a bit later on.
Diolch i Rhys ab Owen am gyflwyno'r ddadl Aelodau heddiw, a hefyd i Llyr Gruffydd a Jane Dodds am ei chyd-gyflwyno. Byddai'n well imi ddatgan buddiant yn awr fel cynghorydd sir presennol yng Nghyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Conwy.
Fel y gŵyr llawer o'r Aelodau, rwy’n frwd fy nghefnogaeth i lywodraeth leol, ac rwy’n falch iawn fod y maes pwysig hwn wedi’i godi yn y Senedd yma heddiw. A bod yn onest serch hynny, nid oeddwn lawn mor frwdfrydig pan welais gynnwys y ddadl o'n blaenau. Fel y dywed y cynnig, mae Deddf Llywodraeth Leol ac Etholiadau (Cymru) 2021 yn sicrhau dyletswydd i annog pobl leol i gymryd rhan mewn llywodraeth leol. Rwy'n siŵr y byddai pob un ohonom yn cytuno pa mor hanfodol yw hyn—gweld llawer o bobl yn cymryd rhan. Ac nid wyf wedi clywed o eto sut y mae gostyngiad yn y ganran sy’n pleidleisio yn yr Alban ers cyflwyno'r bleidlais sengl drosglwyddadwy yn beth da i ddemocratiaeth leol. Ond efallai y bydd yr Aelod am egluro hynny ychydig yn ddiweddarach.
I'll explain it now, if you want.
Fe wnaf ei egluro yn awr, os hoffwch chi.
I'll take an intervention, Llywydd, if he's interested.
Fe dderbyniaf ymyriad, Lywydd, os oes ganddo ddiddordeb.
The fact that STV has been introduced into Scotland has nothing to do with the fact that the number of people who've voted has gone down. It's not connected at all.
Nid oes gan y ffaith bod y bleidlais sengl drosglwyddadwy wedi'i chyflwyno yn yr Alban unrhyw beth i'w wneud â'r ffaith bod nifer y bobl sydd wedi pleidleisio wedi gostwng. Nid oes cysylltiad rhyngddynt o gwbl.
It's a very strange coincidence, then, Llywydd; a very strange coincidence that voter turnout has fallen dramatically at that point.
In terms of looking to deal with uncontested seats, which I think is an important part of the motion, and certainly something that I do think needs addressing, I think my biggest concern with the proposal today is that it does seem to be looking to deal with the symptom and not the cause. We have to understand why there are uncontested seats here in Wales. I really don't think it's because we have a first-past-the-post system. Is it really the system that prevents people from standing for election? I'm not sure about that at all. I guess if a survey was done across the people of Wales asking what the role of the council was, I'm sure there would actually be lots of things there where people just don't appreciate what the council does and can do for them and for their communities. It's councils that deliver vital public services. And if we can inspire people to want to stand and represent their community, that is what will stop uncontested seats from being there. So, in my view, rather than looking to a whole new electoral system in Wales, we should be focusing our efforts to encourage people to stand and make a difference for their community—people from all walks of life. We should be talking up the role that locally elected individuals can have in running their schools, in ensuring those who are most vulnerable are supported and ensuring people have great access to fantastic open spaces. Inspiring people to make a difference in their community is what will reduce the number of uncontested seats.
In addition to this, I'm concerned about some of the contradiction in today's motion, because part of the motion does call for a uniform national system to elect members. That already exists. There's a uniform national system we have for electing councillors, and that's called first-past-the-post. Point 2 of the motion calls on Welsh Government to work closely with new councillors elected in May 2022. That of course is crucial and important to allowing councils to have the right discussions with Welsh Government, and certainly we'll be supporting that continued engagement. However, the motion then talks about ensuring a representative method, which I found a bit confusing, if I'm honest with you. I would like to understand how our electoral method at the moment is not representative. Our electoral system allows people from all walks of life to stand for election in their local ward and local council area. In addition to this, our current first-past-the-post system ensures clear accountability. People know who they're voting for. Electoral change could deter people further from getting involved in local politics. I certainly agree that more action needs to be taken to ensure we see those from all walks of life enter local government. However, this has absolutely nothing to do with our electoral system. Instead, as I've already highlighted, we need to make people aware of the real responsibility and important role that councils play and how rewarding it can be to represent your local community.
To conclude, Llywydd, this motion is simply dealing with the symptoms and not the cause of some of the challenges we see in local democracy. Now is the time to put all our efforts into making people aware of the responsibility and opportunity of councils and the exceptional work that they do and can carry out. So, we need to encourage all parts of society to get involved in local politics and the sheer reward of representing their local communities. In light of this, Llywydd, on these sides of the benches, we'll be voting against today's motion. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Mae’n gyd-ddigwyddiad rhyfedd iawn, os felly, Lywydd, cyd-ddigwyddiad rhyfedd iawn fod y ganran sy'n pleidleisio wedi gostwng yn ddramatig ar yr adeg honno.
O ran mynd i'r afael â seddi diymgeisydd, sy’n rhan bwysig o’r cynnig hyd y gwelaf, ac sy'n sicr yn rhywbeth y credaf fod angen mynd i’r afael ag ef, credaf mai fy mhryder mwyaf gyda’r cynnig heddiw yw ei fod yn ymddangos fel pe bai’n ceisio mynd i'r afael â'r symptom yn hytrach na'r achos. Mae’n rhaid inni ddeall pam y ceir seddi diymgeisydd yma yng Nghymru. Ni chredaf mai'r ffaith bod gennym system y cyntaf i'r felin sydd ar fai. Ai'r system sy'n atal pobl rhag sefyll etholiad? Nid wyf yn siŵr am hynny o gwbl. Pe cynhelid arolwg o bobl Cymru yn gofyn beth yw rôl y cyngor, rwy'n siŵr y byddai llawer o bethau yno lle nad yw pobl yn gwerthfawrogi'r hyn y mae'r cyngor yn ei wneud ac yn gallu ei wneud drostynt a thros eu cymunedau. Y cynghorau sy'n darparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus hanfodol. Ac os gallwn ysbrydoli pobl i fod eisiau sefyll a chynrychioli eu cymuned, dyna fydd yn atal seddi diymgeisydd. Felly, yn fy marn i, yn hytrach nag edrych ar system etholiadol gwbl newydd yng Nghymru, dylem ganolbwyntio ein hymdrechion ar annog pobl i sefyll a gwneud gwahaniaeth i'w cymuned—pobl o bob cefndir. Dylem sôn am y rôl y gall unigolion a etholir yn lleol ei chwarae yn rhedeg eu hysgolion, yn sicrhau bod y rheini sy'n fwyaf agored i niwed yn cael eu cefnogi a sicrhau bod gan bobl fynediad gwych at fannau agored hyfryd. Bydd ysbrydoli pobl i wneud gwahaniaeth yn eu cymuned yn lleihau nifer y seddi diymgeisydd.
Yn ogystal â hyn, rwy’n pryderu am rywfaint o’r gwrthddweud yn y cynnig heddiw, gan fod rhan o’r cynnig yn galw am system genedlaethol unffurf i ethol aelodau. Mae honno'n bodoli eisoes. Mae gennym system genedlaethol unffurf ar gyfer ethol cynghorwyr, sef system y cyntaf i'r felin. Mae pwynt 2 yn y cynnig yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i weithio'n agos gyda chynghorwyr newydd a etholir ym mis Mai 2022. Mae hynny, wrth gwrs, yn hollbwysig er mwyn caniatáu i gynghorau gael y trafodaethau iawn gyda Llywodraeth Cymru, ac yn sicr, byddwn yn cefnogi’r ymgysylltu parhaus hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, mae’r cynnig yn sôn wedyn am sicrhau dull cynrychioliadol, a oedd braidd yn ddryslyd i mi, a dweud y gwir. Hoffwn ddeall sut nad yw ein dull etholiadol yn gynrychioliadol ar hyn o bryd. Mae ein system etholiadol yn caniatáu i bobl o bob cefndir sefyll etholiad yn eu ward leol ac yn ardal eu cyngor lleol. Yn ogystal â hyn, mae system bresennol y cyntaf i'r felin yn sicrhau atebolrwydd clir. Mae pobl yn gwybod dros bwy y maent yn pleidleisio. Gallai newid etholiadol atal pobl ymhellach rhag cymryd rhan mewn gwleidyddiaeth leol. Rwy’n sicr yn cytuno bod angen gwneud mwy i sicrhau ein bod yn gweld pobl o bob cefndir mewn llywodraeth leol. Fodd bynnag, nid oes gan hyn unrhyw beth i'w wneud â'n system etholiadol. Yn hytrach, fel rwyf eisoes wedi'i nodi, mae angen inni sicrhau bod pobl yn ymwybodol o gyfrifoldeb gwirioneddol a rôl bwysig y cynghorau, a'r boddhad y gall cynrychioli eich cymuned leol ei gynnig.
I gloi, Lywydd, mae'r cynnig hwn yn ymdrin â symptomau yn hytrach nag achos rhai o’r heriau a welwn mewn democratiaeth leol. Nawr yw’r amser i ganolbwyntio ein holl ymdrechion ar sicrhau bod pobl yn ymwybodol o gyfrifoldeb a chyfleoedd cynghorau a’r gwaith ardderchog y maent yn ei wneud ac y gallant ei wneud. Felly, mae angen inni annog pob rhan o gymdeithas i gymryd rhan mewn gwleidyddiaeth leol a’r boddhad o gynrychioli eu cymunedau lleol. Yng ngoleuni hyn, Lywydd, ar yr ochrau hyn i’r meinciau, byddwn yn pleidleisio yn erbyn y cynnig hwn heddiw. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
The current system means mainly relatively small wards and increased contact between electors and elected. It means that when you go out to get your newspaper, go shopping, visit a local sports club, or walk down the street, you interact with voters. STV is an electoral system promoted by many in favour of a form of proportional representation. It's used for Scottish council elections and elections to the Irish Parliament, the Dáil. When electing more than one candidate, the STV system becomes complicated, whereas only one candidate is being elected in the alternative vote system. The greatest weakness of STV for political parties is you have to guess how many seats you can win when nominating candidates.
The last choice a voter makes, if all their higher preferences are removed, has the same value as another voter's first choice. Does it work as a proportional system? Well, in the Irish general election of 2020, Sinn Féin, despite receiving the most first-preference votes nationwide, did not win the most seats. Despite beating Fianna Fáil by 535,995 to 484,320, they ended up one seat behind. It took 12,745 votes to elect each Fianna Fáil Member, but 14,476 to elect a Member of Sinn Féin. The Irish journalist John Drennan described it as 11 seats that Sinn Féin left behind because they didn't have enough candidates. They guessed wrong on the number of seats they might win, but if they had guessed wrong the other way, they could have ended up with fewer seats.
So, STV is less a proportional system and more a skilled guessing game, where getting it wrong can mean fewer seats than you should proportionally get. Is it any surprise that Scotland use it for council elections but have decided not to use it for the Scottish Parliament? If you visit Scottish council websites, you can see how large council seats are in area and in population. Of the 21 wards in the Highland Council area, Wester Ross, Strathpeffer and Lochalsh is the example par excellence of the size of council wards needed in rural areas under STV. Not only is this the largest electoral ward in the UK, it is also by itself larger in area than 27 of Scotland's 32 councils. It accounts for almost a fifth of the Highland Council's entire area, and is approximately the same size as Trinidad and Tobago.
For the highlands of Scotland, think Powys, think Ceredigion, think Gwynedd. Just think of some of these areas—and Pembrokeshire—where the population is spread out, then of the population needed for these wards to allow STV to operate effectively. Glasgow ward 1, Linn, has a population of 30,000, which is about two thirds of the population of the Aberconwy Senedd constituency. In Glasgow Govan, four candidates were elected, with Labour topping the poll quite comfortably with 1,520 votes and the SNP coming second and third with 1,110 and 1,096 votes each. The Green candidate edged out the second Labour candidate who had 572 first-preference votes to win the fourth seat. While the SNP efficiently got the first preference for both candidates very close together, Labour did not, and thus, despite easily topping the poll, ended up with only one of the four seats.
The system involves members of the same party fighting against each other, or parties just accepting one seat each in three-member wards. That's not democracy. This is true of council elections across Scotland. 'Where can we win one or two seats?' has to be decided, but if you go for two or three, you may end up with one or none, unless your voters vote efficiently, as happened with the SNP in Govan.
To summarise, STV needs to cover a large geographical area, needs a large population, involves guessing the number of seats you're going to win, voters efficiently voting for the party, and makes it much more difficult for constituents to know the candidates. In terms of small wards, I represented a county ward of just over 4,000 electors and I probably knew a quarter of them. When you end up with wards of 30,000, then no-one is going to get up to that level. You've got a seat in Scotland, which is not the one I mentioned—it's another one—where it takes three hours to get from the furthest polling station to the place where the count takes place, albeit it involves one boat trip as well. I think it's ridiculous. We want a system that works, and works for us. Making it more difficult for constituencies to have no candidates is very important—candidates are important. They're not just the party bag carrier.
Finally, as Ireland has shown, it's not proportional to the vote. Just following on from what Sam Rowlands said, remember when we had a big drop in turnout? It was for the European elections where we went from constituencies to an all-Wales system. In my area, people knew Dai Morris. It reached a stage where, before it ended, I don't think anybody could have named all four of the Welsh representatives unless they were highly politically active.
Mae'r system bresennol yn golygu wardiau cymharol fach ar y cyfan a mwy o gyswllt rhwng yr etholwyr a'r etholedig. Mae'n golygu, pan fyddwch yn mynd allan i brynu eich papur newydd, yn mynd i siopa, yn ymweld â chlwb chwaraeon lleol, neu'n cerdded ar hyd y stryd, eich bod yn rhyngweithio â phleidleiswyr. Mae'r bleidlais sengl drosglwyddadwy yn system etholiadol a hyrwyddir gan lawer sydd o blaid math o gynrychiolaeth gyfrannol. Fe'i defnyddir ar gyfer etholiadau cyngor yr Alban ac etholiadau Senedd Iwerddon, y Dáil. Wrth ethol mwy nag un ymgeisydd, mae system y bleidlais sengl drosglwyddadwy yn mynd yn gymhleth, ond un ymgeisydd yn unig sy'n cael ei ethol yn system y bleidlais amgen. Gwendid mwyaf y bleidlais sengl drosglwyddadwy i bleidiau gwleidyddol yw bod yn rhaid ichi ddyfalu faint o seddi y gallwch eu hennill wrth enwebu ymgeiswyr.
Mae gan y dewis olaf y bydd pleidleisiwr yn ei wneud, os caiff eu holl ddewisiadau uwch eu diystyru, yr un gwerth â dewis cyntaf pleidleisiwr arall. A yw'n gweithio fel system gyfrannol? Wel, yn etholiad cyffredinol Iwerddon yn 2020, ni wnaeth Sinn Féin ennill mwyafrif o'r seddi er iddynt gael y nifer fwyaf o bleidleisiau dewis cyntaf ledled y wlad. Er iddynt guro Fianna Fáil o 535,995 i 484,320, cawsant un sedd yn llai yn y pen draw. Cymerodd 12,745 o bleidleisiau i ethol pob Aelod o Fianna Fáil, ond 14,476 i ethol Aelod o Sinn Féin. Disgrifiodd y newyddiadurwr Gwyddelig, John Drennan, y sefyllfa fel 11 sedd a adawyd ar ôl gan Sinn Féin am nad oedd ganddynt ddigon o ymgeiswyr. Fe wnaethant ddyfalu'n anghywir faint o seddi y gallent eu hennill, ond pe byddent wedi dyfalu'n anghywir y ffordd arall, gallent fod wedi cael llai o seddi yn y pen draw.
Felly, mae'r bleidlais sengl drosglwyddadwy yn fwy o gêm ddyfalu gelfydd na system gyfrannol, lle mae gwneud pethau'n anghywir yn gallu golygu llai o seddi nag y dylech eu cael yn gyfrannol. A oes unrhyw syndod fod yr Alban yn ei defnyddio ar gyfer etholiadau cyngor ond wedi penderfynu peidio â'i defnyddio ar gyfer Senedd yr Alban? Os ewch i wefannau cynghorau'r Alban, gallwch weld pa mor fawr yw seddi cyngor o ran arwynebedd a phoblogaeth. O'r 21 ward yn ardal Cyngor yr Ucheldir, Wester Ross, Strathpeffer a Lochalsh yw'r enghraifft orau o faint y wardiau cyngor sydd eu hangen mewn ardaloedd gwledig o dan y bleidlais sengl drosglwyddadwy. Dyma'r ward etholiadol fwyaf yn y DU, ac mae hefyd yn fwy ar ben ei hun o ran arwynebedd na 27 o'r 32 o gynghorau yn yr Alban. Mae'n bron yn un rhan o bump o holl arwynebedd Cyngor yr Ucheldir, ac mae oddeutu'r un maint â Trinidad a Tobago.
Yn lle ucheldiroedd yr Alban, meddyliwch am Bowys, meddyliwch am Geredigion, meddyliwch am Wynedd. Meddyliwch am rai o'r ardaloedd hyn—a sir Benfro—lle mae'r boblogaeth yn wasgaredig, ac yna am y boblogaeth sydd ei hangen yn y wardiau hyn i alluogi'r bleidlais sengl drosglwyddadwy i weithredu'n effeithiol. Mae gan ward 1 Glasgow, Linn, boblogaeth o 30,000, sef oddeutu dwy ran o dair o boblogaeth etholaeth Aberconwy yn y Senedd. Yn Glasgow Govan, etholwyd pedwar ymgeisydd, gyda Llafur yn dod i'r brig yn weddol gyfforddus gyda 1,520 o bleidleisiau, a'r SNP yn dod yn ail ac yn drydydd gyda 1,110 a 1,096 o bleidleisiau yr un. Curodd ymgeisydd y blaid Werdd yr ail ymgeisydd Llafur, a gafodd 572 o bleidleisiau dewis cyntaf, i ennill y bedwaredd sedd. Er bod yr SNP, yn effeithlon, wedi cael y dewis cyntaf ar gyfer y ddau ymgeisydd yn agos iawn at ei gilydd, ni lwyddodd Llafur i wneud hynny, ac felly, er iddynt dod i'r brig yn gyfforddus, un o'r pedair sedd yn unig a gawsant yn y pen draw.
Mae'r system yn golygu bod aelodau o'r un blaid yn ymladd yn erbyn ei gilydd, neu bleidiau'n derbyn un sedd yr un mewn wardiau tri aelod. Nid democratiaeth yw hynny. Mae hyn yn wir am etholiadau cyngor ledled yr Alban. Mae'n rhaid penderfynu 'ble y gallwn ennill un neu ddwy sedd?', ond os ydych yn mynd am ddwy neu dair, mae'n bosibl y gallech gael un neu ddim yn y pen draw, oni bai bod eich pleidleiswyr yn pleidleisio’n effeithlon, fel a ddigwyddodd gyda'r SNP yn Govan.
I grynhoi, mae angen i'r bleidlais sengl drosglwyddadwy gwmpasu ardal ddaearyddol fawr, mae angen poblogaeth fawr arni, mae'n golygu dyfalu nifer y seddi yr ydych yn mynd i'w hennill, pleidleiswyr yn pleidleisio'n effeithlon dros y blaid, ac mae'n ei gwneud yn llawer anos i etholwyr adnabod yr ymgeiswyr. O ran wardiau bach, cynrychiolais ward sirol o ychydig dros 4,000 o etholwyr ac roeddwn yn adnabod eu chwarter, mae'n debyg. Pan fydd gennych wardiau o 30,000, nid oes unrhyw un yn mynd i gyrraedd y lefel honno. Mae gennych sedd yn yr Alban, ac nid yr un a grybwyllais—un arall—lle mae'n cymryd tair awr i fynd o'r orsaf bleidleisio bellaf i leoliad y cyfrif, ac mae'n cynnwys un daith ar gwch hefyd. Credaf fod hynny'n chwerthinllyd. Rydym eisiau system sy'n gweithio, ac sy'n gweithio i ni. Mae'n bwysig iawn ei gwneud yn anos i etholaethau fethu cael ymgeiswyr—mae ymgeiswyr yn bwysig. Nid dim ond cario baner y pleidiau y maent yn ei wneud.
Yn olaf, fel y mae Iwerddon wedi'i ddangos, nid yw'n gyfrannol â'r bleidlais. Yn dilyn yr hyn a ddywedodd Sam Rowlands, a ydych yn cofio pan gawsom ostyngiad mawr yn y ganran a bleidleisiodd? Roedd hynny ar gyfer etholiadau Ewrop pan aethom o system etholaethau i system Cymru gyfan. Yn fy ardal i, roedd pobl yn adnabod Dai Morris. Cyrhaeddodd bwynt cyn iddo orffen lle nad wyf yn credu y gallai unrhyw un fod wedi enwi pob un o bedwar cynrychiolydd Cymru oni bai eu bod yn hynod weithgar yn wleidyddol.
I think the key question for me in this debate is: is our democracy working now? [Interruption.] I would argue not, because it's not representative of the population. I think we need to ask what the system means in terms of stopping people from standing. Sam, you've mentioned in terms of 'would this make a difference?' Well, actually, when you ask under-represented groups why they don't feel comfortable in standing, it's often because of the aggressive approach to election campaigns, or thinking it's pointless to stand. Because every time we see the kind of first-past-the-post approach, it is about scaring people to try and vote a certain way by saying, 'There's no point voting for that party. Vote this way.' It's a very different style of campaigning if you have to fight for that second, third, fourth preference vote.
Also, to just respond to your point, in terms of the Scottish elections and the turnout, you will know that we can't pick and choose our facts. The 2007 election was held concurrently with the Scottish parliamentary elections, so it was always going to be lower, and that was expected. In fact, the turnout was higher than was anticipated, and we can see from the number of spoiled ballots there that people actually understood the system, because it's far easier to understand that you can put your first preference to the party, even if it's unlikely to win, usually—that you can vote with your heart and your belief, not trying to second guess what the system may result in.
Credaf mai’r cwestiwn allweddol i mi yn y ddadl hon yw: a yw ein democratiaeth yn gweithio yn awr? [Torri ar draws.] Byddwn yn dadlau nad ydyw, gan nad yw’n gynrychioliadol o’r boblogaeth. Credaf fod angen inni ofyn beth y mae’r system yn ei olygu os yw'n atal pobl rhag sefyll. Sam, rydych wedi siarad yn nhermau 'a fyddai hyn yn gwneud gwahaniaeth?' Wel, mewn gwirionedd, pan ofynnwch i grwpiau heb gynrychiolaeth ddigonol pam nad ydynt yn teimlo'n ddigon cyfforddus i sefyll, mae hynny'n aml oherwydd y dull ymosodol o gynnal ymgyrchoedd etholiadol, neu oherwydd eu bod yn credu nad oes diben iddynt sefyll. Oherwydd bob tro y gwelwn y math o ddull cyntaf i’r felin, mae’n ymwneud â dychryn pobl i geisio pleidleisio mewn ffordd benodol drwy ddweud, 'Nid oes diben pleidleisio dros y blaid honno. Pleidleisiwch fel hyn.' Mae'n ddull gwahanol iawn o ymgyrchu os oes angen ichi frwydro am yr ail, y trydydd, a'r pedwerydd dewis.
Hefyd, i ymateb i’ch pwynt, ar etholiadau’r Alban a’r ganran sy'n pleidleisio, fe fyddwch yn gwybod na allwn ddewis a dethol ein ffeithiau. Cynhaliwyd etholiad 2007 ar yr un pryd ag etholiadau seneddol yr Alban, felly roedd bob amser yn mynd i fod yn is, ac roedd hynny i’w ddisgwyl. Mewn gwirionedd, roedd y ganran a bleidleisiodd yn uwch na’r disgwyl, a gallwn weld o nifer y pleidleisiau a ddifethwyd yno fod pobl yn deall y system, gan ei bod yn llawer haws deall y gallwch roi eich dewis cyntaf i’r blaid, hyd yn oed os yw’n annhebygol o ennill, fel arfer—y gallwch bleidleisio â'ch calon a'ch cred, yn hytrach na cheisio dyfalu pa ganlyniad y gallai'r system arwain ato.
Fel y soniodd Rhys ab Owen wrth agor y ddadl hon, mi gefais brofiad o system fwy cyfrannol pan oeddwn i'n byw yn Iwerddon ac yn sefyll mewn etholiadau yno ar gyfer etholiadau swyddogion sabothol undeb myfyrwyr fy mhrifysgol a hefyd undeb myfyrwyr cenedlaethol Iwerddon. System STV oedd honno, oedd yn golygu bod yn rhaid ymgyrchu mewn modd hollol wahanol i sut rydym yn arfer ymgyrchu mewn system cyntaf i'r felin. Roedd yn rhaid gweithio'n galed am bob un bleidlais, ac nid dim ond y bleidlais gyntaf ond hefyd pob un arall ar ôl hynny. Mae hi'n arddull hollol wahanol o ymgyrchu ac yn gorfodi rhywun i fod llawer mwy cadarnhaol oherwydd mae'n rhaid ichi berswadio hyd yn oed pobl sydd ddim yn mynd i roi'r bleidlais gyntaf yna ichi eich bod chi'n haeddu'r ail.
Mewn system cyntaf i'r felin, yn aml—ac mae pob plaid yn euog o hyn—mae yna duedd i drio pwyso'r bobl i beidio â gwastraffu'r un bleidlais sydd ganddynt, gan geisio eu hannog neu eu dychryn i bleidleisio dros blaid sydd yn fwy tebygol o atal y blaid maen nhw'n anghytuno gyda fwyaf rhag cael eu hethol. Rydyn ni i gyd wedi gweld y posteri, 'Only the Lib Dems, Labour or Plaid Cymru can win here to keep the Tories out', er enghraifft. Mae pob plaid yn gwneud hyn. Rydyn ni i gyd wedi eu gweld nhw. Ac mae hyn, yn aml, yn gweithio, yn anffodus, neu'n golygu—a dyma'r pwynt pwysig—nad yw pobl yn trafferthu pleidleisio oherwydd dydyn nhw ddim yn gweld pwynt pleidleisio dros y blaid maen nhw'n teimlo'n agosaf ati. Maen nhw'n meddwl ei bod hi'n done deal a bod yna ddim diben pleidleisio. Ydy hyn yn ddemocrataidd? Nac ydy. Os ydym o ddifrif o ran creu democratiaeth sy'n fwy cynrychioliadol ac sy'n ysgogi pobl i fod eisiau pleidleisio ac yn gweld pwynt pleidleisio ac sydd eisiau sefyll i fod yn ymgeisyddion, yna byddai hyn yn gam enfawr ymlaen. A heb os, os yw am weithio, mae angen system genedlaethol unffurf fel bod cysondeb ledled y wlad.
Mae cysondeb yn bwysig. Wedi'r cyfan, fe welsom anghysondeb mawr o ran y niferoedd o bobl ifanc oedd wedi cofrestru i bleidleisio yn etholiadau'r Senedd ym Mai 2021, yn amrywio o 68.6 y cant ym Mro Morgannwg i 31.73 y cant yn Abertawe, gan olygu nad oedd 54 y cant o bobl ifanc wedi pleidleisio. Anogaf fy nghyd-Aelodau i gefnogi'r cynnig hwn heddiw am y rhesymau hyn. Dydy'r system bresennol ddim yn gweithio. Mae gennym ni gyfle i wneud system sy'n fwy cyfrannol, yn dod â mwy o bobl i mewn i'n gwleidyddiaeth ni ac yn gwneud i bobl fod eisiau pleidleisio. Diolch i Rhys am ddod â'r mater gerbron y Senedd.
As Rhys ab Owen explained in opening this debate, I experienced a more proportional system when I was living in Ireland, and I stood in elections for sabbatical officers at my university’s students’ union, as well as Ireland’s national union of students. The STV system was used in those instances, which meant that we had to campaign in a completely different way to how we’re used to campaigning in a first-past-the-post system. One had to work really hard for every single vote, and not just for the first vote, but also the second and third votes, and every other one after that. It's a completely different approach to campaigning and you have to be much more positive because you have to persuade people who aren't even going to give you their first vote that you deserve their second.
In a first-past-the-post system, very often—and every party is guilty of doing this—there is a tendency to try to urge people not to waste the one vote that they have and to encourage them or to frighten them to vote for the party that's most likely to prevent the party they disagree with most from being elected. We've all seen the posters, 'Only the Lib Dems, Labour or Plaid Cymru can win here to keep the Tories out', for example. Every party does this. We've all seen those posters. And this very often does work, unfortunately, or it means—and this is the important point—that people don’t vote because they don't see the point of voting for the party that they feel closest to. They think that it's a done deal and there's no point in voting. Is that democracy? No, it's not. If we are serious about creating a more representative democracy and one that inspires people to want to vote, and that they see the point of voting and want to stand to be candidates, then this would be a huge step forward. And, without a doubt, if it is to work, we need a uniform national system so that there is consistency nationwide.
Consistency is important. After all, we saw a great deal of inconsistency in the numbers of young people who registered to vote in the Senedd elections in May 2021, varying from 68.8 per cent in the Vale of Glamorgan to 31.73 per cent in Swansea, which meant that 54 per cent of young people didn’t vote. I encourage my fellow Members to support today’s motion for these reasons. The current system isn't working. We have an opportunity to forge a better, proportional system that brings more people into our politics and makes people want to vote. Thank you to Rhys for bringing this issue before the Senedd.
We've heard many arguments, but I think we need to take ourselves back. Sixteen and 17-year-olds were allowed to vote in the 2021 Senedd elections for the first time, and this year, of course, it will be the first time that they'll be able to vote in local government elections. If you look at the figures, out of 65,000 16 to 17-year-olds who were eligible to vote in the 2021 Senedd elections, just under half of those registered to vote, and that is hugely disappointing. Of course, we've got to remind ourselves that we are still, and were then, in the middle of a global pandemic, and that would of course have had an impact on the number of young people who registered and subsequently voted. Additionally, there were restrictions, understandably, that made it harder to engage with young people. So, I think it's essential that we do everything that we can to encourage young people to get involved and to vote in this particular election, the first one in which they have an opportunity to do so.
I think it's also important that we get our messages very clear that it is their future that they are voting on, and their voice is just as important as their parents' or their grandparents'. It has already been said here today that local government manages multi-million pound budgets, and all of that affects young people directly. It's important that they have a say on how those budgets and those issues are prioritised at a local level, and, first and foremost, they can contribute to that by having their say in the ballot box.
I'm going to look at the reasons why people don't vote. So, Nottingham Trent University's 'Making Votes-at-16 Work in Wales' report was written following the 2021 Senedd elections, and suggested a number of recommendations to increase the participation of young people, both in local government and Senedd elections. And one of those was to remove the practical barriers to voting that are specific to newly enfranchised voters, and make it easier for those young people to vote. For example, they said, to trial automatic voter registration, the avoidance of scheduling elections in exam periods, and by locating voting or polling stations in schools or colleges. So, I'm keen to know if the Welsh Government have given any attention to those particular recommendations.
But I think it's important to mention the UK Government Elections Bill 2021-22 as well, because we're talking about enfranchising people, not disenfranchising them. And if that Bill goes ahead, they are going to ensure that people have to have photo ID in order to vote, and it's going to 'help stamp out voter fraud'. Well, I think that's a little bit disproportionate, given that out of 58 million people who cast their votes—58 million—there were only 33 allegations of impersonation at polling stations in 2019. If you talk about a hammer to crack a nut, I cannot think of a better example. So, that Bill won't apply, of course, in the local government or Senedd elections, but it will apply to Wales at the next general election.
So, we are talking here today about enfranchising people. We need to look at what is disenfranchising them, and I do agree that we need to look at the voting system. I won't be supporting it today because I want further—[Interruption.] Well, I want further discussion around it, but I do want to make it clear that I'm open to those further discussions, and it isn't always the case that one system will perhaps produce a different outcome. And it is true that certain people feel completely disenfranchised from standing, and women are somewhat absent, as are young people, in local government. And we need to look at the reasons for that.
I, as you will know, was a Pembrokeshire county councillor, and I was the only female for the first two terms—that's nine years—in Preseli Pembrokeshire. And I remember knocking the door and I remember a woman saying to me, 'I was waiting for the man to come round', to which I said, 'Well, you've got me.' [Laughter.] And I got in with a close-run election. So, let's change the debate.
Rydym wedi clywed llawer o ddadleuon, ond credaf fod angen inni fynd yn ôl. Cafodd pobl ifanc 16 ac 17 oed bleidleisio yn etholiadau’r Senedd yn 2021 am y tro cyntaf, ac eleni, wrth gwrs, fydd y tro cyntaf y byddant yn gallu pleidleisio mewn etholiadau llywodraeth leol. Os edrychwch ar y ffigurau, o'r 65,000 o bobl ifanc 16 i 17 oed a oedd yn gymwys i bleidleisio yn etholiadau’r Senedd yn 2021, ychydig llai na'u hanner a gofrestrodd i bleidleisio, ac mae hynny’n hynod siomedig. Wrth gwrs, mae'n rhaid inni atgoffa ein hunain ein bod yn dal i fod, a'n bod bryd hynny, ynghanol pandemig byd-eang, a byddai hynny, wrth gwrs, wedi cael effaith ar nifer y bobl ifanc a gofrestrodd ac a bleidleisiodd wedi hynny. Yn ogystal, roedd cyfyngiadau ar waith a'i gwnaeth yn anos, yn ddealladwy, i ymgysylltu â phobl ifanc. Felly, credaf ei bod yn hanfodol ein bod yn gwneud popeth a allwn i annog pobl ifanc i gymryd rhan ac i bleidleisio yn yr etholiad penodol hwn, yr un cyntaf y mae ganddynt gyfle i i wneud hynny.
Credaf ei bod hefyd yn bwysig fod ein negeseuon yn glir iawn eu bod yn pleidleisio ar eu dyfodol eu hunain, a bod eu llais yr un mor bwysig â llais eu rhieni neu eu neiniau a'u teidiau. Dywedwyd yma heddiw eisoes fod llywodraeth leol yn rheoli cyllidebau gwerth miliynau o bunnoedd, ac mae hynny oll yn effeithio ar bobl ifanc yn uniongyrchol. Mae'n bwysig eu bod yn cael dweud eu barn ar sut y caiff y cyllidebau hynny a'r materion hynny eu blaenoriaethu ar lefel leol, ac yn anad dim, eu bod yn gallu cyfrannu at hynny drwy fynegi barn yn y blwch pleidleisio.
Rwyf am drafod y rhesymau pam nad yw pobl yn pleidleisio. Felly, yn dilyn etholiadau’r Senedd yn 2021, ysgrifennwyd adroddiad Prifysgol Nottingham Trent, ‘Making Votes-at-16 Work in Wales’, ac roedd yn awgrymu nifer o argymhellion i gynyddu cyfranogiad pobl ifanc, mewn etholiadau llywodraeth leol ac etholiadau’r Senedd. Ac un ohonynt oedd cael gwared ar y rhwystrau ymarferol i bleidleisio sy’n benodol i bleidleiswyr sydd newydd gael y bleidlais, a’i gwneud yn haws i’r bobl ifanc hynny bleidleisio. Er enghraifft, meddent, treialu cofrestru pleidleiswyr yn awtomatig, osgoi trefnu etholiadau yn ystod cyfnodau arholiadau, a lleoli gorsafoedd pleidleisio mewn ysgolion neu golegau. Felly, rwy'n awyddus i wybod a yw Llywodraeth Cymru wedi rhoi sylw i'r argymhellion penodol hynny.
Ond credaf ei bod yn bwysig crybwyll Bil Etholiadau Llywodraeth y DU 2021-22 hefyd, gan ein bod yn sôn am etholfreinio pobl, nid eu difreinio. Ac os yw'r Bil hwnnw'n llwyddo, byddant yn sicrhau bod yn rhaid i bobl gael cerdyn adnabod â llun er mwyn pleidleisio, ac mae'n mynd i 'helpu i gael gwared ar dwyll pleidleiswyr'. Wel, credaf fod hynny ychydig yn anghymesur o ystyried, o'r 58 miliwn o bobl a bleidleisiodd—58 miliwn—mai dim ond 33 o honiadau o bersonadu mewn gorsafoedd pleidleisio a gafwyd yn 2019. Ni allaf feddwl am enghraifft well o ddefnyddio morthwyl i dorri cneuen. Felly, ni fydd y Bil hwnnw’n berthnasol, wrth gwrs, yn yr etholiadau llywodraeth leol neu etholiadau’r Senedd, ond bydd yn berthnasol i Gymru yn yr etholiad cyffredinol nesaf.
Felly, rydym yn sôn yma heddiw am etholfreinio pobl. Mae angen inni edrych ar beth sy’n eu difreinio, ac rwy'n cytuno bod angen inni edrych ar y system bleidleisio. Ni fyddaf yn cefnogi'r cynnig heddiw gan fy mod am gael—[Torri ar draws.] Wel, rwyf am gael trafodaeth bellach yn ei gylch, ond hoffwn ddweud yn glir fy mod yn agored i’r trafodaethau pellach hynny, ac nid yw bob amser yn wir y bydd un system yn cynhyrchu canlyniad gwahanol. Ac mae’n wir fod rhai pobl yn teimlo eu bod wedi’u difreinio’n llwyr rhag sefyll, ac mae menywod yn brin, fel y mae pobl ifanc, mewn llywodraeth leol. Ac mae angen inni edrych ar y rhesymau am hynny.
Fel y gwyddoch, roeddwn yn gynghorydd yn sir Benfro, a fi oedd yr unig fenyw am y ddau dymor cyntaf—naw mlynedd—ym Mhreseli Sir Benfro. Ac rwy'n cofio curo ar y drws a dynes yn dweud wrthyf, 'Roeddwn yn aros i'r dyn alw', a dywedais wrthi, 'Wel, fi sydd gennych chi.' [Chwerthin.] A chefais lwyddiant mewn etholiad agos. Felly, gadewch inni newid y ddadl.
Diolch i Rhys ab Owen am gyflwyno'r cynnig yma heddiw. Ni fydd yn synnu neb fy mod i'n siarad o blaid y cynnig yma.
Thank you to Rhys ab Owen for moving this motion today. It'll surprise nobody that I will speak in favour of this motion today.
Surely, none of us want an electoral system that guarantees safe seats, guarantees huge majorities for less than 50 per cent of the vote, and a system that breeds political division and a lack of interest in voting. Surely, we all want to make sure that every vote counts. And we are all working hard to get people to stand, and to make sure they are involved in elections and vote. So, I do contest Sam Rowlands's points. We are working our socks off, and we have done for years, to get people more interested.
And as you've heard in terms of the statistics, it really isn't helping. Simply put, first-past-the-post cheats voters of real, meaningful representation, and also disenfranchises them from voting. A more proportional system for all elections, including council elections, can foster greater collaboration, greater accountability and will ensure that everyone's voice is heard. We believe that electoral reform, a move to the single transferrable vote, is an essential part of what's needed to get people more involved in our democracy. And it's not just votes in a ballot box that make a democracy. We can go further. What about citizens' assemblies and juries, and participatory budgeting as well? They can bring people closer to being involved in democracy.
Nid oes yr un ohonom am gael system etholiadol sy'n gwarantu seddi diogel, yn gwarantu mwyafrifoedd enfawr am lai na 50 y cant o'r bleidlais, a system sy'n meithrin rhaniadau gwleidyddol a diffyg diddordeb mewn pleidleisio. Mae pawb ohonom am sicrhau bod pob pleidlais yn cyfrif. Ac rydym i gyd yn gweithio'n galed i gael pobl i sefyll, ac i sicrhau eu bod yn cymryd rhan mewn etholiadau ac yn pleidleisio. Felly, rwy'n herio pwyntiau Sam Rowlands. Rydym yn gweithio'n galed iawn, ac rydym wedi gwneud hynny ers blynyddoedd, er mwyn ennyn mwy o ddiddordeb pobl.
Ac fel rydych wedi clywed ar yr ystadegau, nid yw'n helpu mewn gwirionedd. Yn syml, mae trefn y cyntaf i'r felin yn amddifadu pleidleiswyr o gynrychiolaeth ystyrlon go iawn, a hefyd yn eu difreinio rhag pleidleisio. Gall system fwy cyfrannol ar gyfer pob etholiad, gan gynnwys etholiadau cyngor, feithrin mwy o gydweithio, mwy o atebolrwydd a bydd yn sicrhau bod llais pawb yn cael ei glywed. Credwn fod diwygio etholiadol, newid i'r bleidlais sengl drosglwyddadwy, yn rhan hanfodol o'r hyn sydd ei angen i sicrhau bod pobl yn cymryd mwy o ran yn ein democratiaeth. Ac nid pleidleisiau mewn blwch pleidleisio yn unig sy'n gwneud democratiaeth. Gallwn fynd ymhellach. Beth am gynulliadau a rheithgorau dinasyddion, a chyllidebu cyfranogol hefyd? Gallant ddod â phobl yn nes at gymryd rhan mewn democratiaeth.
Gadewch inni gyd wneud yn siŵr bod pob pleidlais yn cyfri.
Let us all ensure that every vote counts.
We all want to see every vote count, and make sure that people are more confident in their democracy. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Rydym i gyd am weld pob pleidlais yn cyfrif, a sicrhau bod pobl yn fwy hyderus yn eu democratiaeth. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Y Gweinidog Cyllid a Llywodraeth Leol nawr i gyfrannu at y ddadl—Rebecca Evans.
The Minister for Finance and Local Government to contribute to the debate—Rebecca Evans.
Diolch, Llywydd. This has been a really excellent debate, and I have really enjoyed listening to the different perspectives. I'm really grateful for this opportunity to talk about the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021. I'm extremely proud of what the Act means for local democracy here in Wales, providing, as it does, for the establishment of a new and reformed legislative framework for local government elections, democracy, performance and governance.
The principles that underpin the Act are based on enabling, encouraging and supporting people to participate in local democracy, and to provide greater flexibility in the way that elections are run. What is being suggested here today would seek to impose a single electoral system on principal councils, regardless of the views of that council or the communities they represent.
So, in this context, it is right and proper that we note the provisions that extend the franchise for local elections both to 16 and 17-year-olds, and foreign citizens legally resident in Wales. These are two of the most important changes the Act has introduced. Sixteen and 17-year-olds can leave home and join the military, and so it is right and just that we give them a voice on the matters that affect their lives. Lowering the voting age to 16 gives us a valuable opportunity to start a young person on the democratic journey with the right tools.
The Welsh Government's view is that people who contribute to the economic and cultural life of our communities should have a say in the future of that community. We believe that the test for whether someone is able to participate in local elections should be whether they are lawfully resident here in Wales, wanting to make a contribution to our society. The accidents of citizenship simply need not be relevant considerations to this test.
Importantly, for the first time, the 2021 Act also introduced a duty on local government to encourage the public to input their views to the making of decisions to their councils, including the policy development process. Democracy is more than elections, and evidence indicates a link between the perceptions of a low ability to influence outcomes and low voter turnout. The Act sets out to address this by placing specific duties on principal councils that will increase public participation in local democracy and will improve transparency.
As I have said, the Act is founded on the principles of facilitating participation and choice in democracy. In line with this, it enables principal councils to change the system of voting that they use. Principal councils, local people and communities are best placed to decide for themselves which voting system better suits the needs of their communities. Introducing a local choice supports the principle of decisions being made at a more local level, and allows councils to reflect the different needs and demographics across parts of Wales.
After the 2022 local government elections, principal councils will be able to choose which voting system they wish to use—either first-past-the-post, or the single transferable vote system. Each council will continue to use the first-past-the-post system unless they decide to change. Such a change would require a two-thirds majority, which is the same as is required for a change to the Senedd voting system. Any council opting to change would then need to use the new system for the next two rounds of ordinary elections, following which it could decide whether to return to the previous voting system.
The procedures set out in the 2021 Act would also apply if the council were proposing to change back to the previous voting system. It's important to note that a principal council would have to consult the people in their area entitled to vote at the local government election, each community council in the area, and other people it considers appropriate to consult, before it can exercise its power to change voting systems.
We believe in local choice. Having given principal councils, working with their communities, the ability to choose which system of voting works best for them, it would be inappropriate for the Welsh Government to step in and decide which system of voting works best, and to impose that system right across Wales, regardless of local views.
Diolch, Lywydd. Mae hon wedi bod yn ddadl ragorol iawn, ac rwyf wedi mwynhau gwrando ar y gwahanol safbwyntiau. Rwy'n ddiolchgar iawn am y cyfle hwn i siarad am Ddeddf Llywodraeth Leol ac Etholiadau (Cymru) 2021. Rwy'n hynod falch o'r hyn y mae'r Ddeddf yn ei olygu i ddemocratiaeth leol yma yng Nghymru, gan ddarparu, fel y gwna, ar gyfer sefydlu fframwaith deddfwriaethol newydd a diwygiedig ar gyfer etholiadau llywodraeth leol, democratiaeth, perfformiad a llywodraethu.
Mae'r egwyddorion sy'n sail i'r Ddeddf yn seiliedig ar alluogi, annog a chefnogi pobl i gymryd rhan mewn democratiaeth leol, ac i roi mwy o hyblygrwydd yn y ffordd y caiff etholiadau eu cynnal. Byddai'r hyn sy'n cael ei awgrymu yma heddiw yn gosod un system etholiadol ar brif gynghorau, beth bynnag y bo barn y cyngor hwnnw neu'r cymunedau y maent yn eu cynrychioli.
Felly, yn y cyd-destun hwn, mae'n iawn ac yn briodol ein bod yn nodi'r darpariaethau sy'n ymestyn y bleidlais mewn etholiadau lleol i bobl ifanc 16 ac 17 oed, a dinasyddion tramor sy'n preswylio'n gyfreithlon yng Nghymru. Dyma ddau o'r newidiadau pwysicaf y mae'r Ddeddf wedi'u cyflwyno. Gall rhai 16 ac 17 oed adael cartref ac ymuno â'r fyddin, ac felly mae'n gywir ac yn gyfiawn ein bod yn rhoi llais iddynt ar y materion sy'n effeithio ar eu bywydau. Mae gostwng yr oedran pleidleisio i 16 yn rhoi cyfle gwerthfawr inni osod unigolyn ifanc ar ddechrau'r daith ddemocrataidd gyda'r offer cywir.
Barn Llywodraeth Cymru yw y dylai pobl sy'n cyfrannu at fywyd economaidd a diwylliannol ein cymunedau gael llais yn nyfodol y gymuned honno. Credwn mai'r prawf i ddangos a yw rhywun yn cael cymryd rhan mewn etholiadau lleol yw a ydynt yn preswylio'n gyfreithlon yma yng Nghymru, ac eisiau cyfrannu at ein cymdeithas. Nid oes angen i ddamweiniau dinasyddiaeth fod yn ystyriaethau perthnasol i'r prawf hwn.
Yn bwysig, am y tro cyntaf, cyflwynodd Deddf 2021 ddyletswydd ar lywodraeth leol hefyd i annog y cyhoedd i gyfrannu eu safbwyntiau ar benderfyniadau i'w cynghorau, gan gynnwys y broses o ddatblygu polisi. Mae democratiaeth yn fwy nag etholiadau, ac mae tystiolaeth yn dangos cysylltiad rhwng y canfyddiadau o allu cyfyngedig i ddylanwadu ar ganlyniadau a nifer isel o bleidleiswyr. Nod y Ddeddf yw mynd i'r afael â hyn drwy osod dyletswyddau penodol ar brif gynghorau a fydd yn cynyddu cyfranogiad y cyhoedd mewn democratiaeth leol ac yn gwella tryloywder.
Fel y dywedais, mae'r Ddeddf yn seiliedig ar egwyddorion hwyluso cyfranogiad a dewis mewn democratiaeth. Yn unol â hyn, mae'n galluogi prif gynghorau i newid y system bleidleisio y maent yn ei defnyddio. Prif gynghorau, pobl leol a chymunedau sydd yn y sefyllfa orau i benderfynu drostynt eu hunain pa system bleidleisio sy'n gweddu orau i anghenion eu cymunedau. Mae cyflwyno dewis lleol yn cefnogi'r egwyddor o wneud penderfyniadau ar lefel fwy lleol, ac yn caniatáu i gynghorau adlewyrchu'r gwahanol anghenion a demograffeg ar draws rhannau o Gymru.
Ar ôl etholiadau llywodraeth leol 2022, bydd prif gynghorau'n cael dewis pa system bleidleisio y maent am ei defnyddio—naill ai'r cyntaf i'r felin, neu system y bleidlais sengl drosglwyddadwy. Bydd pob cyngor yn parhau i ddefnyddio system y cyntaf i'r felin oni bai eu bod yn penderfynu newid. Byddai newid o'r fath yn gofyn am fwyafrif o ddwy ran o dair, sydd yr un fath â'r hyn sy'n ofynnol i newid system bleidleisio'r Senedd. Yna, byddai angen i unrhyw gyngor sy'n dewis newid ddefnyddio'r system newydd ar gyfer y ddwy rownd nesaf o etholiadau arferol, ac ar ôl hynny gallai benderfynu a ddylid newid yn ôl i'r system bleidleisio flaenorol.
Byddai'r gweithdrefnau a nodir yn Neddf 2021 hefyd yn gymwys pe bai'r cyngor yn argymell newid yn ôl i'r system bleidleisio flaenorol. Mae'n bwysig nodi y byddai'n rhaid i brif gyngor ymgynghori â'r bobl yn eu hardal sydd â hawl i bleidleisio yn yr etholiad llywodraeth leol, pob cyngor cymuned yn yr ardal, a phobl eraill y mae'n ystyried ei bod yn briodol ymgynghori â hwy, cyn y gall arfer ei bŵer i newid systemau pleidleisio.
Rydym yn credu mewn dewis lleol. Ar ôl rhoi'r gallu i brif gynghorau, gan weithio gyda'u cymunedau, ddewis pa system bleidleisio sy'n gweithio orau iddynt, byddai'n amhriodol i Lywodraeth Cymru gamu i mewn a phenderfynu pa system bleidleisio sy'n gweithio orau, a gosod y system honno ledled Cymru heb ystyried safbwyntiau lleol.
Will you take an intervention?
A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?
Of course.
Wrth gwrs.
Thank you. To those points you just raised there in terms of that consultation, Mike Hedges made some really important points around how sparse some of these areas could be, and therefore the risk, with proportional representation, of losing that local touch, because, actually, it's such a big area to cover, and the fundamentals of councils and councillors are actually about being connected to their communities. Would you accept that is a risk with the proposals we've heard today?
Diolch. Ar y pwyntiau yr ydych newydd eu codi am yr ymgynghoriad hwnnw, gwnaeth Mike Hedges rai pwyntiau pwysig iawn ynghylch pa mor denau eu poblogaeth y gallai rhai o'r ardaloedd hyn fod, ac felly'r risg, gyda chynrychiolaeth gyfrannol, o golli'r cyffyrddiad lleol hwnnw, oherwydd, mewn gwirionedd, mae'n ardal mor fawr ei chwmpas, ac mae hanfodion cynghorau a chynghorwyr mewn gwirionedd yn ymwneud â bod mewn cysylltiad â'u cymunedau. A fyddech yn derbyn bod honno'n risg gyda'r cynigion a glywsom heddiw?
Is that a risk with your seat, Sam—in the North Wales region?
A yw honno'n risg gyda'ch sedd chi, Sam—yn rhanbarth Gogledd Cymru?
Absolutely. An absolute risk, yes.
Yn bendant. Mae'n bendant yn risg, ydy.
Allow the Minister to respond to the intervention.
Gadewch i'r Gweinidog ymateb i'r ymyriad.
Llywydd, I'm going to resist the temptation to talk in my response about the benefits or disbenefits that I see of either voting system, because I genuinely think that this is a matter for local authorities to decide themselves, but, of course, the issues that Sam Rowlands has described will be amongst the thinking of those local authorities, as will the other issues that have been raised this afternoon.
The motion does make a comment on the electoral system for Scottish local elections, and, of course, the Scottish Parliament made their choice, and, of course, we would respect that, but we have legislated here in Wales to allow every local authority to weigh up those arguments for themselves and to choose whether they prefer the single transferrable vote or the first-past-the-post system, and I do think that that local choice is paramount here.
So, in conclusion, through the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021, the Welsh Government has provided for greater diversity and choice in local democracy, and this includes extending the franchise for local elections, introducing a duty for local government to encourage participation in decision making, and giving each principal council the choice of which voting system best suits the needs of their communities. Our colleagues in local government and the communities they serve would want to keep that choice, and I think it would be completely out of step with our principles of electoral reform to try and promote or to impose one single system across the whole of Wales. Thank you to colleagues for a really excellent debate.
Lywydd, rwy'n mynd i wrthsefyll y demtasiwn i siarad yn fy ymateb am y manteision neu'r anfanteision a welaf gyda'r naill system bleidleisio neu'r llall, oherwydd credaf yn wirioneddol mai mater i awdurdodau lleol yw penderfynu drostynt eu hunain, ond wrth gwrs, bydd y materion y mae Sam Rowlands wedi'u disgrifio ym meddwl yr awdurdodau lleol hynny, fel y bydd y materion eraill a godwyd y prynhawn yma.
Mae'r cynnig yn gwneud sylw ar y system etholiadol ar gyfer etholiadau lleol yr Alban, ac wrth gwrs, gwnaeth Senedd yr Alban eu dewis, a byddem yn parchu hynny wrth reswm, ond rydym wedi deddfu yma yng Nghymru i ganiatáu i bob awdurdod lleol bwyso a mesur y dadleuon hynny drostynt eu hunain a dewis a yw'n well ganddynt y bleidlais sengl drosglwyddadwy neu system y cyntaf i'r felin, a chredaf fod y dewis lleol hwnnw'n hollbwysig yma.
Felly, i gloi, drwy Ddeddf Llywodraeth Leol ac Etholiadau (Cymru) 2021, mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi darparu ar gyfer mwy o amrywiaeth a dewis mewn democratiaeth leol, ac mae hyn yn cynnwys ymestyn yr etholfraint ar gyfer etholiadau lleol, cyflwyno dyletswydd ar lywodraeth leol i annog pobl i gymryd rhan yn y broses o wneud penderfyniadau, a rhoi'r dewis i bob prif gyngor pa system bleidleisio sy'n gweddu orau i anghenion eu cymunedau. Byddai ein cydweithwyr mewn llywodraeth leol a'r cymunedau y maent yn eu gwasanaethu am gadw'r dewis hwnnw, a chredaf y byddai'n gwbl groes i'n hegwyddorion diwygio etholiadol i geisio hyrwyddo neu osod un system sengl ledled Cymru gyfan. Diolch i fy nghyd-Aelodau am ddadl ragorol iawn.
Llyr Gruffydd nawr i ymateb i'r ddadl.
Llyr Gruffydd now to reply to the debate.
Gaf i yn y lle cyntaf ddiolch i bawb sydd wedi cyfrannu i'r ddadl yma? Dwi'n ymwybodol bod y cloc yn fy erbyn i, braidd, ond fe wnaf i drio ymateb i rai o'r pwyntiau sydd ddim wedi cael ymateb iddyn nhw.
Mae'n dda gweld bod Gareth Davies wedi dod nôl i'r Siambr ar ôl gadael am y rhan fwyaf o'r drafodaeth ar ôl gwneud ei ymyriad. Mi fyddai wedi bod yn handi ichi fod yma i glywed y ffaith, wrth gwrs, taw dim ond tair sedd sydd wedi cael eu hymladd yn ddiwrthwynebiad—wel, dydych chi ddim yn ymladd seddi, ond rŷch chi'n gwybod beth dwi'n meddwl—yn yr Alban ers 2007. Pymtheg mlynedd—tair sedd ddiwrthwynebiad. Cawsom ni bron i 100 o seddi diwrthwynebiad yng Nghymru dim ond yn yr etholiad diwethaf. Felly, mae e yn gwneud gwahaniaeth gwirioneddol pan fo'n dod i hynny, ac mae hi yn siomedig bod Sam Rowlands wedi trio camddehongli, efallai, dywedwn ni, ie, y cwymp yn y bleidlais, fel esboniodd Heledd Fychan. Fe allaf i rannu dadansoddiad gan yr LSE os ydy e eisiau—
May I first of all thank everyone who has contributed to this debate? I am aware that the clock is against me, but I will try and respond to some of the points that haven't been covered.
It's good to see that Gareth Davies has returned to the Chamber, having left for most of the debate, having made his intervention. It would have been handy for you to be here to hear the fact, of course, that only three seats have been uncontested in Scotland since 2007. Fifteen years—that's just three seats. We almost had 100 in Wales just in the last election. So, you know, it does make a very real difference when it comes to that issue of uncontested seats, and it is disappointing that Sam Rowlands tried to misinterpret, shall we say, the fall in the vote, as was explained by Heledd Fychan. I can share an analysis by the LSE if he chooses—
Sam Rowlands a gododd—
Sam Rowlands rose—
Oes gen i'r amser i gymryd ymyriad, Llywydd?
Do I have time for an intervention, Llywydd?
Iawn, fe gewch chi amser ychwanegol i gymryd ymyriad.
Yes, I will allow you some additional time for the intervention.
I'm sorry for intervening again, but I just want to be clear: the numbers that I shared were a four-year period. I wasn't picking individual years. So, the difference between the two prior years, or the two prior elections and the two post elections were the numbers I quoted 8 per cent for.
Mae'n ddrwg gennyf am ymyrryd eto, ond rwyf am fod yn glir: roedd y niferoedd a rannais ar gyfer cyfnod o bedair blynedd. Nid oeddwn yn dewis blynyddoedd unigol. Felly, y gwahaniaeth rhwng y ddwy flynedd flaenorol, neu'r ddau etholiad cynt a'r ddau etholiad wedyn oedd y niferoedd y dyfynnais 8 y cant ar eu cyfer.
Well, I can quote back to you the LSE, but I'll share the link with you, and it's pretty clear that the first claim often made is that the use of STV led to low turnout, and that's palpably untrue. So, I suppose it's lies, damned lies, and statistics on both of our accounts, then, isn't it?
I hear what people are saying about the sizes of wards, but, do you know what, look at what happened in Anglesey? Now, I know this isn't proportional representation, but because of the situation that Anglesey found itself in years ago, with single-member wards et cetera, and the kind of fiefdoms that were really dragging the council down, it's this Labour Government that intervened. They didn't give them the choice to move or to change. They were taken into, effectively, special measures as a council, and they were forced to introduce multimember wards on a much bigger footprint. And do you know what? The council has been transformed in terms of democracy. It has been transformed. It has slightly improved in terms of representation—it's not where it needs to be. And you have, you know, three-member wards. They are bigger, but Anglesey is a pretty rural area as well, so I don't think that needs to be the sole reason for not moving towards a different kind of footprint, and I think that maybe we need to reflect on some decisions that previous Labour Governments have made when it comes to this debate as well.
Jane Dodds started off asking, 'Surely none of us want a system that guarantees safe seats.' It sounds a little bit like that to me, at times, but—.
Wel, gallaf ddyfynnu Ysgol Economeg Llundain yn ôl atoch, ond fe rannaf y ddolen â chi, ac mae'n eithaf clir mai'r honiad cyntaf a wneir yn aml yw bod y defnydd o'r bleidlais sengl drosglwyddadwy wedi arwain at nifer isel o bleidleiswyr, ac mae hynny'n gwbl anghywir. Felly, mae'n debyg ei fod yn fater o gelwyddau, celwyddau melltigedig, ac ystadegau yn ein hachos ni'n dau, felly, onid yw?
Clywaf yr hyn y mae pobl yn ei ddweud am faint wardiau, ond wyddoch chi beth, edrychwch ar yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn Ynys Môn? Nawr, gwn nad yw'n gynrychiolaeth gyfrannol, ond oherwydd y sefyllfa yr oedd Ynys Môn ynddi flynyddoedd yn ôl, gyda wardiau un aelod ac yn y blaen, a'r math o faenoriaethau a oedd yn llesteirio'r cyngor mewn gwirionedd, y Llywodraeth Lafur hon a ymyrrodd. Ni roesant ddewis iddynt symud neu newid. I bob pwrpas, cawsant eu rhoi dan drefn mesurau arbennig fel cyngor, ac fe'u gorfodwyd i gyflwyno wardiau aml-aelod ar ôl troed llawer mwy. A wyddoch chi beth? Mae'r cyngor wedi'i drawsnewid o ran democratiaeth. Mae wedi'i drawsnewid. Mae wedi gwella ychydig o ran cynrychiolaeth—nid yw lle mae angen iddo fod. Ac mae gennych chi wardiau tri aelod. Maent yn fwy, ond mae Ynys Môn yn ardal eithaf gwledig hefyd, felly nid wyf yn credu bod angen i hynny fod yn unig reswm dros beidio â symud tuag at fath gwahanol o ôl troed, a chredaf efallai fod angen inni ystyried rhai o'r penderfyniadau a wnaeth Llywodraethau Llafur blaenorol yn y ddadl hon hefyd.
Dechreuodd Jane Dodds drwy ofyn, 'Nid oes yr un ohonom am gael system sy'n gwarantu seddi diogel.' Mae'n swnio yn debyg i hynny i mi ar adegau, braidd, ond—.
Mi basiwyd Deddf Llywodraeth—
The Act that—
Mike Hedges a gododd—
Mike Hedges rose—
No, sorry, Mike—I am up against time, I'm afraid.
Na, mae'n ddrwg gennyf, Mike—rwy'n brin o amser, mae arnaf ofn.
Mi basiwyd y Ddeddf, sy'n caniatáu symud i gynrychiolaeth gyfrannol, dwi'n deall hynny, ond y cwestiwn dwi'n ei ofyn, a beth dwi ddim wedi'i glywed gan y Gweinidog yn ei hymateb, yw: so beth sy'n mynd i yrru'r newid yna? Ble mae'r cymhelliad i gynghorau i fynd i'r afael â hyn go iawn? Mi glywyd y term 'twrcis a Nadolig', ac mae’n wir, ond yw e? Opsiwn yw e, a dwi'n ofni ei bod hi'n annhebygol o ddigwydd, a lle mae e'n digwydd, bydd e'n digwydd yn ynysig; mi fydd e'n golygu bod un rhan o, efallai, rai cymunedau yn defnyddio un system a rhan arall yn defnyddio system arall.
Ac un peth rŷn ni yn gwybod, os oes shifft yn digwydd i gyfundrefn arall, mae yna broses, ac mae angen gwaith addysgu pobl i sicrhau bod pobl yn deall beth yw'r broses newydd. Wel, os oes un rhan yn gwneud un peth a rhan arall yn gwneud rhywbeth arall, mae'n gwneud hynny lawer iawn yn anoddach, sy'n golygu bod y broses i raddau yn cael ei thanseilio ychydig cyn ei bod hi'n cychwyn, ac mae hynny'n mynd i olygu bod awdurdodau lleol hyd yn oed yn llai parod i newid.
Felly, mi ellid fod wedi annog a sicrhau bod awdurdodau lleol yn symud i’r model yna, ond mi fethwyd, ac rŷn ni yn gorffen, wrth gwrs, gyda sefyllfaoedd—fel y mae sawl siaradwr wedi dweud—lle mae pleidlais mewn un gymuned yn cyfrif mwy na phleidlais mewn cymuned arall, ac mae pobl yn mynd i bleidleisio nid o blaid yr ymgeisydd A y maen nhw eisiau ei gefnogi, ond o blaid ymgeisydd B, oherwydd mae hynny'n golygu dyw ymgeisydd C ddim yn mynd i ennill. Felly, maen nhw'n pleidleisio yn erbyn rhywun, yn hytrach nag o blaid rhywun arall. Mi gollwyd cyfle gyda'r Ddeddf.
A jest i gloi, felly, dwi eisiau gweld ambell i beth yn dod o gyfeiriad y Llywodraeth nawr, achos, yn amlwg, dŷch chi ddim yn mynd i gefnogi'r cynnig yma. Mae angen cefnogi a chreu cymhelliad i gynghorau i newid eu system bleidleisio. Mae angen i’r Llywodraeth yrru'r sgwrs a'r drafodaeth yma, yn hytrach na jest gadael e i ddrifftio. Mae angen hefyd wedyn ymrwymo i gefnogi’r gofynion gweinyddol fydd yn dod yn sgil y newid a’r costau fydd yn dod yn sgil y newid yn y lle cyntaf, nes eu bod nhw wedi cael eu 'embed-o' mewn i fod yn rhan o broses ehangach, a hefyd mae yna job o waith i’w wneud i gyfathrebu i etholwyr lle mae yna newid yn digwydd. A man lleiaf, ar gefn y ddadl yma, mi fyddwn i'n gobeithio bod y Llywodraeth yn barod ymrwymo i hynny.
The Act that allows the move to PR has been passed, I understand that, but the question I ask, and what I haven't heard from the Minister in her response, is: so, what's going to drive that change? Where is the incentive for councils to really tackle this issue? We heard the term 'turkeys voting for Christmas', and it's true. It's an option, and I fear that it's unlikely to happen and, where it does happen, it'll happen in an isolated way; it'll mean that perhaps one part of some communities use one system and another another.
And one thing we do know, if there is a shift to another system, then there is a process, and work needs to be done in educating people to ensure that people understand the new process. But, if one part is doing one thing and another another, then that makes that process far more difficult, which means that the process is undermined before it has even started, and that'll mean that local authorities are even less ready to make that change.
So, we could have encouraged and even ensured that local authorities moved to that model, but that option wasn't taken, and we do find ourselves in a situation—as many of you have said this afternoon—where a vote in one community counts for more than a vote in another, and people will vote not in favour of candidate A who they want to support, but in favour of candidate B, because that'll mean that candidate C is going to be unsuccessful. So, they are voting against an individual, rather than in favour of an individual. An opportunity was lost with the Act.
And just to conclude, I want to see a few things coming from Governments now, because, clearly, you're not going to support this motion this afternoon. We need to support and create incentives for councils to change their voting systems. The Government needs to drive that conversation, rather than allowing it to drift. We then need a commitment to support the administrative requirements and the costs that'll emerge as a result of the change initially, until they are embedded and part of the broader process, and there's also a job of work to be done to communicate with constituents where changes are made. And at the very least, on the back of this debate, I would hope the Government would commit to that.
Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes. Felly, rŷn ni'n gohirio'r bleidlais tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.
The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object?[Objection.] Yes. I will defer voting on the motion until voting time.
Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.
Voting deferred until voting time.
Eitem 6 yw'r eitem nesaf, y ddadl ar ddeiseb i arbed yr hen ysgol ganolradd i ferched y Bont-faen rhag ei dymchwel. Galw ar Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Deisebau i wneud y cynnig—Jack Sargeant.
Item 6 is the next item, the debate on the petition to save Cowbridge intermediate school for girls from demolition. I call on the Chair of the Petitions Committee to move the motion—Jack Sargeant.
Cynnig NDM7924 Jack Sargeant
Cynnig bod y Senedd:
Yn nodi’r ddeiseb P-05-949 'Arbed yr Hen Ysgol Ganolradd i Ferched y Bont-Faen Rhag ei Dymchwel' a gasglodd 5,522 o lofnodion.
Motion NDM7924 Jack Sargeant
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the petition P-05-949 'Save Cowbridge Old Girls’ School from Demolition', which received 5,522 signatures.
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Ar ran y Pwyllgor Deisebau, diolch am y cyfle i gyflwyno'r ddadl hon.
Thank you very much, Llywydd. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, thank you very much for the opportunity to put forward this debate.
This petition was submitted in March 2020 by Sara Pedersen, having collected 2,080 signatures online and 3,442 signatures on paper, and I'm sure that budding mathematicians across the Chamber have already calculated the total of 5,522 signatures. Llywydd, the text of the petition says:
'We call on the National Assembly for Wales to urge the Welsh Government to protect the former Intermediate School for Girls’ in Cowbridge, Vale of Glamorgan. This was the first intermediate school to be built specifically for the education of girls in Wales (and England) and is the subject of a planning application for demolition. Failure to protect it will lead to the loss of a nationally important historic asset.'
As Members will be aware, the Petitions Committee doesn't get involved in planning issues, but the issue of whether the building should have been listed by Cadw and the petitioner's call for an independent review of that decision was one we could act on. During the fifth Senedd, the previous Senedd's Petitions Committee, under the sterling leadership of my predecessor Chair, Janet Finch-Saunders, agreed to request a debate, but, as the Senedd business was restricted due to the pandemic, it was not possible to hold said debate.
Supporters of the petition argue that the school, designed by architect Robert Williams, is, and I quote,
'a prominent and attractive testimony to a pivotal moment in Welsh history and the equal opportunities afforded to underprivileged girls of the time'.
Llywydd, the committee has written to successive culture Ministers, who have defended Cadw's decision and their process. Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas in 2020 wrote, and, again, I quote:
'My officials have very carefully considered all of the arguments put forward for listing the building but I am afraid that it does not meet the criteria to be listed at the national level.'
Following further requests by the campaigners for a review of the original decision by Cadw, the Minister, and, again, I quote,
'obtained independent advice from Richard Hayman, a building historian and archaeologist with particular expertise in historic buildings in Wales'.
The Minister went on to support that decision not to list the building. In this Senedd, the new committee wrote to the current Minister, Dawn Bowden, who will be responding to today's debate, to see whether she would change anything as Minister. Dawn Bowden, the Minister for culture, replied and said
'there has been no new information presented that would reverse the decision not to list the building.'
I know Members from right across the Chamber who are more familiar with the particular building in question today, and the area in question, and they will want to talk more about its architectural and historical values, and, again, the claims made for its significance beyond the local area. But, Llywydd, if I may, I want to come to a wider point in my contribution today: there must be more we can do in this Senedd to support communities to preserve buildings they value. Cowbridge school isn't an isolated case. As a committee, we've recently seen campaigners in the north petitioning to preserve Coleg Harlech—P-05-1130, 'The Welsh Government should re-purchase and refurbish Coleg Harlech'—another educational building seeking new purpose. I know that the clerking team of the Petitions Committee regularly reject other petitions where local people are seeking to challenge planning decisions that will result in the demolition of local buildings and the memories and the meanings that they represent. I look around the Chamber and at those online and I'm sure each of us in our own constituencies and regions have a building in own constituency or region that clearly fits this pattern, a building that doesn't make enough money or a building that has become too costly to maintain, but nonetheless holds that cherished place at the heart of our towns and villages and in the hearts of the people who live there.
Cyflwynwyd y ddeiseb hon ym mis Mawrth 2020 gan Sara Pedersen, ar ôl casglu 2,080 o lofnodion ar-lein a 3,442 o lofnodion ar bapur, ac rwy'n siŵr bod egin fathemategwyr ar draws y Siambr eisoes wedi cyfrifo'r cyfanswm o 5,522 o lofnodion. Lywydd, mae testun y ddeiseb yn dweud:
'Galwn ar Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru i annog Llywodraeth Cymru i amddiffyn yr hen 'Ysgol Ganolradd i Ferched' y Bont-faen, Bro Morgannwg. Hon oedd yr ysgol ganolradd gyntaf i gael ei hadeiladu yn benodol ar gyfer addysgu merched yng Nghymru (a Lloegr), ac mae cais cynllunio wedi ei gyflwyno i'w dymchwel. Byddai methu ei gwarchod yn arwain at golli adeilad hanesyddol o bwysigrwydd cenedlaethol.'
Fel y gŵyr yr Aelodau, nid yw'r Pwyllgor Deisebau yn ymyrryd mewn materion cynllunio, ond roedd y cwestiwn a ddylai'r adeilad fod wedi'i restru gan Cadw a galwad y deisebydd am adolygiad annibynnol o'r penderfyniad hwnnw yn un y gallem weithredu arno. Yn ystod y pumed Senedd, cytunodd Pwyllgor Deisebau'r Senedd flaenorol, o dan arweiniad rhagorol fy rhagflaenydd yn y gadair, Janet Finch-Saunders, i ofyn am ddadl, ond gan fod busnes y Senedd wedi'i gyfyngu oherwydd y pandemig, nid oedd yn bosibl cynnal y ddadl honno.
Mae cefnogwyr y ddeiseb yn dadlau bod yr ysgol, a gynlluniwyd gan y pensaer Robert Williams, yn
'[d]ystiolaeth amlwg a deniadol o gyfnod pwysig yn hanes Cymru pan ddarparwyd cyfleoedd cyfartal i ferched difreintiedig yr oes'.
Lywydd, mae'r pwyllgor wedi ysgrifennu at Weinidogion diwylliant olynol, sydd wedi amddiffyn penderfyniad Cadw a'u proses. Ysgrifennodd yr Arglwydd Dafydd Elis-Thomas yn 2020, ac unwaith eto, rwy'n dyfynnu:
'Mae fy swyddogion wedi ystyried yr holl ddadleuon a gyflwynwyd ar gyfer rhestru'r adeilad yn ofalus iawn ond mae arnaf ofn nad yw'n bodloni'r meini prawf ar gyfer ei restru ar y lefel genedlaethol.'
Yn dilyn ceisiadau pellach gan yr ymgyrchwyr am adolygiad o benderfyniad gwreiddiol Cadw, fe wnaeth y Gweinidog,
'ofyn am gyngor annibynnol gan Richard Hayman, hanesydd adeiladau ac archeolegydd sydd ag arbenigedd penodol mewn adeiladau hanesyddol yng Nghymru'.
Aeth y Gweinidog rhagddo i gefnogi'r penderfyniad i beidio â rhestru'r adeilad. Yn y Senedd hon, ysgrifennodd y pwyllgor newydd at y Gweinidog presennol, Dawn Bowden, a fydd yn ymateb i'r ddadl heddiw, i weld a fyddai'n newid unrhyw beth fel Gweinidog. Atebodd Dawn Bowden, y Gweinidog diwylliant, a dywedodd
'ni chyflwynwyd unrhyw wybodaeth newydd a fyddai'n gwrthdroi'r penderfyniad i beidio â rhestru'r adeilad.'
Gwn am Aelodau o bob rhan o'r Siambr sy'n fwy cyfarwydd â'r adeilad penodol dan sylw heddiw, a'r ardal dan sylw, a byddant am siarad mwy am ei werth pensaernïol a hanesyddol, ac unwaith eto, yr honiadau a wnaed ynglŷn â'i arwyddocâd y tu hwnt i'r ardal leol. Ond Lywydd, os caf, rwyf am ddod at bwynt ehangach yn fy nghyfraniad heddiw: rhaid bod mwy y gallwn ei wneud yn y Senedd hon i gynorthwyo cymunedau i gadw adeiladau y maent yn eu hystyried yn werthfawr. Nid ysgol y Bont-faen yw'r unig achos. Fel pwyllgor, yn ddiweddar gwelsom ymgyrchwyr yn y gogledd yn deisebu i gadw Coleg Harlech—P-05-1130, 'Dylai Llywodraeth Cymru ail-brynu ac adnewyddu Coleg Harlech'—adeilad addysgol arall sy'n galw am ddiben newydd. Gwn fod tîm clercio'r Pwyllgor Deisebau yn gwrthod deisebau eraill yn rheolaidd lle mae pobl leol yn ceisio herio penderfyniadau cynllunio a fydd yn arwain at ddymchwel adeiladau lleol a'r atgofion a'r ystyr sydd ynghlwm wrthynt. Edrychaf o gwmpas y Siambr ac ar y rheini ar-lein ac rwy'n siŵr bod gan bob un ohonom yn ein hetholaethau a'n rhanbarthau ein hunain adeilad sy'n amlwg yn cyd-fynd â'r patrwm hwn, adeilad nad yw'n gwneud digon o arian neu adeilad sydd wedi mynd yn rhy gostus i'w gynnal, ond adeilad ag iddo le pwysig ynghanol ein trefi a'n pentrefi ac yng nghalonnau'r bobl sy'n byw yno.
Daeth Joyce Watson i’r Gadair.
Joyce Watson took the Chair.
We also know, from the work the Petitions Committee has done on the petition P-05-1112, 'Help Welsh Communities Buy Community Assets: Implement Part 5 Chapter 3 of the Localism Act 2011', that the Welsh Government is working with other partners to find ways of making it viable for communities to take over community buildings and facilities. Now, I recognise that that won't be a solution for the Cowbridge school campaigners, but I do hope, in the long term, this might create another route for communities to preserve and sustain the landmark buildings they so much value.
Acting Llywydd in the Chair now, I do look forward to hearing Members' contributions from across the Chamber, and, of course, I look forward to the Minister's response regarding preserving buildings of significance in communities right across Wales. Diolch yn fawr.
Gwyddom hefyd, o'r gwaith y mae'r Pwyllgor Deisebau wedi'i wneud ar y ddeiseb P-05-1112, 'Helpwch gymunedau yng Nghymru i brynu asedau cymunedol: Gweithredwch Ran 5, Pennod 3 o Ddeddf Lleoliaeth 2011' fod Llywodraeth Cymru yn gweithio gyda phartneriaid eraill i ddod o hyd i ffyrdd o'i gwneud yn bosibl i gymunedau gael meddiant ar adeiladau a chyfleusterau cymunedol. Nawr, rwy'n cydnabod na fydd hynny'n ateb i ymgyrchwyr ysgolion y Bont-faen, ond rwy'n gobeithio, yn hirdymor, y gallai hyn greu llwybr arall i gymunedau allu cadw a chynnal yr adeiladau nodedig sydd mor werthfawr iddynt.
Lywydd dros dro yn y Gadair yn awr, edrychaf ymlaen at glywed cyfraniadau'r Aelodau o bob rhan o'r Siambr, ac wrth gwrs, edrychaf ymlaen at ymateb y Gweinidog ynghylch cadw adeiladau o bwys mewn cymunedau ledled Cymru. Diolch yn fawr.
I am speaking today in support of saving Cowbridge old girls' school from demolition, and to speak on behalf of everyone who wants to see this building brought back to life. The issue is a complex one in that the school building is subject to an owner who wants to sell it and release its value, likely meaning its demolition, a local community that wants to keep it, and Cadw, who refuse to give it any protected status.
As we have heard, the school was the first purpose-built secondary school for girls' education in England and Wales, and, as such, I believe it has significant historic relevance. It is also valued by the local community as a heritage building, with highly regarded architecture and local significance. And in this regard, I can clearly see why this petition's prompted such a large local response. The building is also home to the first ever laboratory facility in the UK for the teaching of practical science skills to girls. In my mind, this makes saving this building even more important, because it reflects a turning point in our country in recognising the equality, value and potential of women in science—principles that are now recognised internationally on 11 February. Sadly, the issue is complicated by the fact that Cadw refuse to give listed status, mainly because the original building has been altered, in their minds, extensively, and because several other better examples of secondary schools built in this period have already been listed. For all concerned, there needs to be a resolution, otherwise the building will fall into further disrepair, more funds will be used in maintaining the property and the building could possibly become structurally unsound, meaning that its current potential to be repurposed and brought back to life will be lost.
We hear in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 the Welsh Government's desire for more cohesive communities and for them to have a greater say in what affects them. I believe here we have an example of how the system is letting this community down. If this Government wants greater community cohesion, it needs to encourage communities to have a greater say over the buildings and spaces they see as part of their community, and support them when they speak up to save their local heritage.
There were over 5,500 signatures on the petition, which embodies the strength of local feeling over this building. The Minister has an opportunity to act decisively here and call in the application for a review, and, frankly, if they choose not to act to save this building, it shows more than anything the contempt that they have for the community in trying to stand up and save something that is clearly important to them.
In my mind, the cause of this current situation falls squarely on the shoulders of Cadw. Cadw's lack of concern for the conservation of this building because it fails to tick enough boxes for them could ultimately see this former school destroyed and lost for future generations. Cadw should be more sympathetic to giving protected status to buildings that have local significance, and not just national significance, because it is distressing for communities to have architecture, buildings they value, buildings that they have grown up with and buildings that reflect their local history destroyed simply because it's the most profitable thing to do. Demolition of the Cowbridge old girls' school would, in my mind, be an outright failure of this nation to protect significant local heritage and, with this in mind, I hope Members today will join me in supporting this petition. Thank you.
Rwy'n siarad heddiw i gefnogi achub yr hen ysgol i ferched y Bont-faen rhag cael ei dymchwel, ac i siarad ar ran pawb sydd am weld yr adeilad hwn yn cael ei adfer. Mae'r mater yn un cymhleth gan fod adeilad yr ysgol yn eiddo i berchennog sydd am ei werthu a rhyddhau ei werth, sy'n golygu ei ddymchwel mae'n debyg, cymuned leol sydd am ei gadw, a Cadw, sy'n gwrthod rhoi unrhyw statws gwarchodedig iddo.
Fel y clywsom, yr ysgol oedd yr ysgol uwchradd gyntaf a adeiladwyd yn bwrpasol ar gyfer addysgu merched yng Nghymru a Lloegr, ac fel y cyfryw, credaf fod iddi gryn dipyn o berthnasedd hanesyddol. Hefyd, mae'r gymuned leol yn gweld ei gwerth fel adeilad treftadaeth, gyda phensaernïaeth sydd wedi ennyn llawer o barch ac arwyddocâd lleol. Ac yn hyn o beth, gallaf weld yn glir pam y mae'r ddeiseb wedi ysgogi ymateb mor fawr yn lleol. Mae'r adeilad hefyd yn gartref i'r cyfleuster labordy cyntaf erioed yn y DU ar gyfer addysgu sgiliau gwyddoniaeth ymarferol i ferched. Yn fy marn i, mae hyn yn gwneud achub yr adeilad hwn hyd yn oed yn bwysicach, oherwydd mae'n adlewyrchu trobwynt yn ein gwlad pan ddechreuwyd cydnabod cydraddoldeb, gwerth a photensial menywod mewn gwyddoniaeth—egwyddorion sydd bellach yn cael eu cydnabod yn rhyngwladol ar 11 Chwefror. Yn anffodus, cymhlethir y mater gan y ffaith bod Cadw yn gwrthod rhoi statws rhestredig, yn bennaf am fod yr adeilad gwreiddiol wedi'i newid, yn helaeth yn eu barn hwy, ac oherwydd bod sawl enghraifft arall well o ysgol uwchradd a adeiladwyd yn y cyfnod hwn eisoes wedi'u rhestru. I bawb sy'n gysylltiedig â'r mater, mae angen penderfyniad, neu fel arall bydd yr adeilad yn dadfeilio ymhellach, caiff mwy o arian ei ddefnyddio i gynnal yr eiddo a gallai'r adeiladwaith ddirywio nes ei fod yn anniogel, sy'n golygu y collir ei botensial presennol i gael ei addasu at ddibenion gwahanol a'i adfywio.
Clywn yn Neddf Llesiant Cenedlaethau'r Dyfodol (Cymru) 2015 awydd Llywodraeth Cymru i weld cymunedau mwy cydlynol ac iddynt gael mwy o lais yn yr hyn sy'n effeithio arnynt. Credaf yma fod gennym enghraifft o sut y mae'r system yn gwneud cam â'r gymuned hon. Os yw'r Llywodraeth am gael mwy o gydlyniant cymunedol, mae angen iddi annog cymunedau i gael mwy o lais dros yr adeiladau a'r mannau y maent yn eu gweld fel rhan o'u cymuned, a'u cefnogi pan fyddant yn codi llais i achub eu treftadaeth leol.
Roedd dros 5,500 o lofnodion ar y ddeiseb, sy'n cyfleu cryfder y teimlad lleol ynghylch yr adeilad hwn. Mae cyfle i'r Gweinidog weithredu'n bendant yma a galw'r cais am adolygiad i mewn, ac a dweud y gwir, os ydynt yn dewis peidio â gweithredu i achub yr adeilad hwn, mae'n dangos yn fwy na dim y dirmyg sydd ganddynt yn erbyn y gymuned sy'n ceisio gwneud safiad ac achub rhywbeth sy'n amlwg yn bwysig iddynt.
Yn fy marn i, Cadw sydd ar fai yn llwyr am y sefyllfa bresennol. Yn y pen draw, gallai diffyg pryder Cadw ynghylch cadwraeth yr adeilad hwn am ei fod yn methu ticio digon o flychau arwain at ddinistrio’r hen ysgol hon a'i cholli i genedlaethau'r dyfodol. Dylai Cadw fod yn fwy cydymdeimladol i roi statws gwarchodedig i adeiladau sydd ag arwyddocâd lleol, ac nid arwyddocâd cenedlaethol yn unig, oherwydd mae'n peri gofid i gymunedau weld pensaernïaeth, adeiladau y maent yn eu hystyried yn werthfawr, adeiladau y maent wedi tyfu i fyny gyda hwy ac adeiladau sy'n adlewyrchu eu hanes lleol yn cael eu dinistrio'n unig am mai dyna'r peth mwyaf proffidiol i'w wneud. Yn fy marn i, byddai dymchwel yr hen ysgol i ferched y Bont-faen yn dangos methiant llwyr y wlad hon i ddiogelu treftadaeth leol arwyddocaol a chyda hyn mewn golwg, rwy'n gobeithio y bydd yr Aelodau heddiw yn ymuno â mi i gefnogi'r ddeiseb hon. Diolch.
I rise to speak in this debate not because I have a particular interest in the important building in Cowbridge that has been referred to, but because I wanted to make some more general points about the significant impact that not listing important buildings of local and national heritage is having in other parts of the country.
In my own constituency, there's a very prominent art deco property on the seafront in Rhos-on-Sea, which, unfortunately, is likely to be demolished because of a similar exchange of correspondence with Cadw and, indeed, the Minister. I know there's some sympathy from the Minister and others in this Chamber for trying to overhaul the system to make sure that we can afford properties like 57 Marine Drive in Rhos-on-Sea with the proper protection that they deserve. And it's not only that property that prompts me to speak today either. I also am involved—and I will declare an interest—with a charity, a small charity, called the Evan Roberts Institute. We acquired—. And I'm a trustee of the institute; I just want to put that on the record for interest purposes. We acquired a chapel in Loughor in south Wales called Pisgah. Now, Pisgah has absolutely no architectural merit whatsoever, but it is extremely important to the people of Wales because of its history and because of its association with the revivalist Evan Roberts. And if it hadn't been for the fact that we were able to acquire the building, that building would have been demolished and a bungalow would be sitting in its place right now.
And I do fear, I am afraid to say, that there is a problem with Cadw in terms of the way it lists our buildings. It doesn't always look at the historical importance; it rather looks at the design of the building, whether there are any unique features and the architecture rather than the history and the things that are associated with it. And I think it's a tragedy, because we're going to lose more and more of these important parts of what Wales has emerged from, if you like, what makes the modern Wales we love, in the future. [Interruption.] Yes, I'll happily take an intervention.
Rwy'n codi i siarad yn y ddadl hon nid am fod gennyf ddiddordeb arbennig yn yr adeilad pwysig yn y Bont-faen y cyfeiriwyd ato, ond oherwydd fy mod am wneud rhai pwyntiau mwy cyffredinol am yr effaith sylweddol y mae peidio â rhestru adeiladau sy'n bwysig o ran treftadaeth leol a chenedlaethol yn ei chael mewn rhannau eraill o'r wlad.
Yn fy etholaeth i, mae eiddo art déco amlwg iawn ar lan y môr yn Llandrillo-yn-Rhos yn debygol o gael ei ddymchwel, yn anffodus, yn sgil gohebiaeth debyg â Cadw, a'r Gweinidog yn wir. Gwn fod rhywfaint o gydymdeimlad gan y Gweinidog ac eraill yn y Siambr hon i geisio ailwampio'r system er mwyn sicrhau y gallwn roi'r warchodaeth y mae yn ei haeddu i eiddo fel 57 Marine Drive yn Llandrillo-yn-Rhos. Ac nid yr eiddo hwnnw'n unig sy'n fy annog i siarad heddiw ychwaith. Rwyf hefyd yn gysylltiedig—ac rwy'n datgan buddiant—ag elusen, elusen fach, o'r enw Sefydliad Evan Roberts. Fe wnaethom gaffael—. Ac rwy'n ymddiriedolwr i'r sefydliad; rwyf am gofnodi hynny er mwyn datgan buddiant. Rydym wedi caffael capel yng Nghasllwchwr yn ne Cymru o'r enw Pisgah. Nawr, nid oes unrhyw rinwedd pensaernïol o gwbl yn perthyn i Pisgah, ond mae'n eithriadol o bwysig i bobl Cymru oherwydd ei hanes ac oherwydd ei gysylltiad â'r diwygiwr Evan Roberts. A phe na byddem wedi gallu caffael yr adeilad, byddai'r adeilad hwnnw wedi'i ddymchwel a byddai byngalo wedi ei godi yn ei le erbyn hyn.
Ac mae arnaf ofn fod problem gyda Cadw o ran y ffordd y mae'n rhestru ein hadeiladau. Nid yw bob amser yn edrych ar y pwysigrwydd hanesyddol; mae'n edrych yn hytrach ar gynllun yr adeilad, a oes unrhyw nodweddion unigryw, a'r bensaernïaeth yn hytrach na'r hanes a'r pethau sy'n gysylltiedig ag ef. Ac rwy'n credu bod hynny'n drasiedi, oherwydd yn y dyfodol rydym yn mynd i golli mwy a mwy o rannau pwysig o'r hyn y mae Cymru wedi codi ohono, os mynnwch, yr hyn sydd wedi esgor ar y Gymru fodern yr ydym yn ei charu. [Torri ar draws.] Iawn, rwy'n hapus i dderbyn ymyriad.
As an intervention there, on the point you make, Darren Millar, Samuel Kurtz and I met with the Baptist Union of Wales last week, and the issues that chapels are having with Cadw, of being unable to renovate the buildings at all and then the chapel closes and everything goes and the building is demolished. It's not fit for purpose at the moment.
Fel ymyriad yno, ar y pwynt a wnewch, cyfarfu Darren Millar, Samuel Kurtz a minnau ag Undeb Bedyddwyr Cymru yr wythnos diwethaf, a'r problemau y mae capeli'n eu cael gyda Cadw, o ran methu adnewyddu'r adeiladau o gwbl ac yna mae'r capel yn cau ac mae popeth yn mynd a'r adeilad yn cael ei ddymchwel. Nid yw'r system yn addas i'r diben ar hyn o bryd.
It isn't fit for purpose, and I know that the Minister will probably refer to the fact that local listing can take place via local authorities, but many local authorities simply don't have the time, energy or capacity, unfortunately, to develop their local lists. So, I think what we could really do with is to have Cadw introduce another category of listing, perhaps a grade III-type list, which affords these buildings that little bit of extra protection that they deserve. And both of these particular properties that I've referred to in this debate, both of them are actually listed on the Coflein website, which, of course, is the online database of the national monuments records for Wales. If they're important enough to be on that list, then surely they ought to be afforded some protection. So, I would be grateful, Minister, if you, in your contribution to this debate, could give serious consideration to perhaps introducing that grade III listing, which does take place in Scotland, but doesn't here in Wales, and I think it would give us the protection that we need.
Nid yw'n addas i'r diben, a gwn y bydd y Gweinidog, mae'n debyg, yn cyfeirio at y ffaith y gall rhestru lleol ddigwydd drwy awdurdodau lleol, ond nid oes gan lawer o awdurdodau lleol amser, egni na chapasiti, yn anffodus, i ddatblygu eu rhestrau lleol. Felly, credaf mai'r hyn y gallem wneud ag ef mewn gwirionedd yw cael Cadw i gyflwyno categori rhestru arall, rhestr gradd III efallai, sy'n rhoi'r ychydig bach o warchodaeth ychwanegol y maent yn ei haeddu i'r adeiladau hyn. Ac mae'r ddau eiddo penodol y cyfeiriais atynt yn y ddadl hon wedi'u rhestru ar wefan Coflein, sef cronfa ddata ar-lein cofnodion henebion cenedlaethol Cymru, wrth gwrs. Os ydynt yn ddigon pwysig i fod ar y rhestr honno, dylid rhoi rhywfaint o warchodaeth iddynt. Felly, byddwn yn ddiolchgar, Weinidog, pe gallech chi, yn eich cyfraniad i'r ddadl hon, roi ystyriaeth ddifrifol i gyflwyno rhestr gradd III efallai, fel sy'n digwydd yn yr Alban, ond nid yw'n digwydd yma yng Nghymru, a chredaf y byddai'n rhoi'r warchodaeth sydd ei hangen arnom.
I'm very pleased to follow my colleague Darren Millar, and I largely agree with everything he says on this occasion, as indeed with Joel James, because I think this is a really important issue and it's excellent that this petition has enabled us to discuss it.
I agree that there are some really complicated issues here, but, as with Darren Millar and the chapel in Loughor, I've got a particular pub in my constituency, the Roath Park Hotel, which is the last Victorian pub in City Road—the last of eight. Unfortunately, the planning system isn't sufficiently in line with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 to enable local authorities to refuse permission to demolish in order to create a hideous modern building in its place. It has happened so often around Cardiff that we have lost the vernacular of our historic architecture, and modern buildings, unfortunately, in general, are not nearly as elegant or well built.
That doesn't mean to say that we are philistines—that we don't want change—but I just think this building in particular is so important because it's only one of five left of 95 examples of a girls' school that was purpose built for this reason. I've been trying to find out a bit more about Robert Williams, the architect who built it. Because I learnt from the petition that the buildings he went on to build in London and in Egypt have been preserved and yet, here in Wales, we are considering demolishing this fine example of his work. Given that he was a pioneer of building conservation and of social housing, and was setting up the Welsh school of architecture, and the need to use the Welsh language in building the architects of the future, this is a really rich history that we are in danger of losing. The well-being of future generations Act simply doesn't capture the importance of all of these relevant facts, because we're in danger of simply having a system that's based on the cost of everything and the value of nothing. And so, I just think that we really have to change things.
The planning decisions, for example, don't have to pay any regard to the carbon emissions involved in demolishing this perfectly usable building that could easily be converted into some extremely fine and much-needed social housing, because, after all, this is a building that had accommodation involved from day one for girls who couldn't travel that far to Cowbridge on a daily basis. So, I think there are huge reasons why we need to revisit this as a matter of urgency, because carbon emissions are a very significant issue in line with the well-being of future generations Act, but it also touches on the cultural importance of this building, of the language of involvement of Robert Williams in promoting the Welsh language in architecture. And I just think that the system is absolutely not right, not fit for purpose at the moment, otherwise we're going to have more disasters like this.
Rwy'n falch iawn o ddilyn fy nghyd-Aelod, Darren Millar, ac rwy'n cytuno i raddau helaeth â phopeth a ddywed y tro hwn, fel yn wir gyda Joel James, oherwydd credaf fod hwn yn fater pwysig iawn ac mae'n wych fod y ddeiseb hon wedi ein galluogi i'w drafod.
Rwy'n cytuno bod rhai materion cymhleth iawn yma, ond fel gyda Darren Millar a'r capel yng Nghasllwchwr, mae gennyf dafarn benodol yn fy etholaeth i, y Roath Park Hotel, sef y dafarn Fictoraidd olaf ar Heol y Ddinas—yr olaf o wyth. Yn anffodus, nid yw'r system gynllunio yn cyd-fynd yn ddigonol â Deddf Llesiant Cenedlaethau'r Dyfodol (Cymru) 2015 i alluogi awdurdodau lleol i wrthod caniatâd i ddymchwel er mwyn creu adeilad modern hyll yn ei le. Mae wedi digwydd mor aml o amgylch Caerdydd, ein bod wedi colli ein pensaernïaeth hanesyddol gynhenid, ac at ei gilydd nid yw adeiladau modern, yn anffodus, hanner mor gain nac wedi'u hadeiladu cystal.
Nid yw hynny'n golygu ein bod yn philistiaid—nad ydym am weld newid—ond credaf fod yr adeilad hwn yn arbennig mor bwysig am ei fod yn un o ddim ond pump sy'n weddill o 95 enghraifft o ysgol i ferched a adeiladwyd yn bwrpasol at y diben hwnnw. Rwyf wedi bod yn ceisio darganfod ychydig mwy am Robert Williams, y pensaer a'i hadeiladodd. Oherwydd dysgais o'r ddeiseb fod yr adeiladau yr aeth rhagddo i'w hadeiladu yn Llundain ac yn yr Aifft wedi'u cadw ac eto, yma yng Nghymru, rydym yn ystyried dymchwel yr enghraifft wych hon o'i waith. O ystyried ei fod yn arloeswr ym maes cadwraeth adeiladau a thai cymdeithasol, a'i fod wedi sefydlu ysgol bensaernïaeth Cymru, a'r angen i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg wrth ddatblygu penseiri'r dyfodol, mae hwn yn hanes cyfoethog iawn yr ydym mewn perygl o'i golli. Nid yw Deddf llesiant cenedlaethau'r dyfodol yn cyfleu pwysigrwydd yr holl ffeithiau perthnasol hyn, oherwydd rydym mewn perygl o gael system sy'n seiliedig ar gost popeth a gwerth dim. Ac felly, rwy'n credu bod yn rhaid inni newid pethau o ddifrif.
Nid oes rhaid i'r penderfyniadau cynllunio, er enghraifft, roi unrhyw ystyriaeth i'r allyriadau carbon sydd ynghlwm wrth y broses o ddymchwel yr adeilad cwbl ddefnyddiadwy hwn y gellid yn hawdd ei droi'n dai cymdeithasol eithriadol o dda a mawr eu hangen, oherwydd, wedi'r cyfan, dyma adeilad a oedd yn cynnig llety o'r diwrnod cyntaf i ferched na allent deithio mor bell â'r Bont-faen yn ddyddiol. Felly, credaf fod rhesymau enfawr pam y mae angen inni ailedrych ar hyn fel mater o frys, oherwydd mae allyriadau carbon yn broblem sylweddol iawn yn unol â Deddf llesiant cenedlaethau'r dyfodol, ond mae hefyd yn cyffwrdd ar bwysigrwydd diwylliannol yr adeilad hwn, ar gyfraniad Robert Williams i hyrwyddo'r Gymraeg mewn pensaernïaeth. A chredaf nad yw'r system yn iawn o gwbl, nad yw'n addas i'r diben ar hyn o bryd, ac fel arall byddwn yn cael mwy o drychinebau fel hyn.
I find myself agreeing also, like Jenny Rathbone, with the Conservatives in this debate. I know, a historical moment: the first time I've said those words. [Laughter.] But I think this shows that we can be united when things matter, and too much of our heritage has disappeared.
Beautiful buildings across Wales have been left to rot until, inevitably, local planning authorities are told by developers that they cannot be saved. And Jenny Rathbone's point is extremely important in terms of the carbon emissions as well. We should be re-imagining these beautiful and historic buildings to give them a new lease of life. I am fed up of seeing, also, important buildings being listed, but not then being saved and protected, and left to rot. This is not acceptable.
Whenever I travel into Cowbridge, I am always struck by the beauty of the buildings in question, which are reminiscent of Coed-y-Lan school near my home in Pontypridd, which has also been left to dilapidate. It's a very sad situation, and especially when you think about the history of this specific building. I won't repeat those statistics, but I agree with you, Joel: in terms of the role with women in science, this is a building that is of significance. And, clearly, I am not alone in my appreciation of the building and its historic significance. In fact, on the website set up by the campaign group, there is a list of 20 prominent historic buildings specialists, historians and architects, all of whom support listing the building and sensitively converting it. These include Dr Eurwyn Wiliam, former National Museum Wales historic building expert, former council member of the Historic Buildings Council for Wales and former chairman of the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales, and who has often advised Cadw on such matters. Yet, it seems that their views and those of local residents have been disregarded, leading to Cadw refusing to list the building.
I understand all too well the need for affordable social housing in Cowbridge—a point made by the one letter I have received that supports the demolition of the building. But, as illustrated in the tens of letters I’ve received in support of saving the building, it isn’t an either/or, and there is a way where we can achieve the best of both worlds: saving the building and converting and repurposing it. Save Britain’s Heritage, working with the architect Philip Tilbury, has produced an alternative scheme, showing ample space to create 23 apartments within the school, as well as 12 new apartments and two new houses on the adjacent land. I urge the Deputy Minister to ask her officials to look further into this matter, as well as the alternative plans put forward.
Historic Scotland and Historic England both have procedures established when there are such disputes, which allow for an independent external peer review in such circumstances—something that I believe is merited in this case. This is an opportunity to reimagine a historic building to meet local need. I very much support the petition and thank all constituents that have contacted me on this matter.
Rwy'n cytuno hefyd, fel Jenny Rathbone, â'r Ceidwadwyr yn y ddadl hon. Rwy'n gwybod, eiliad hanesyddol: y tro cyntaf i mi ddweud y geiriau hynny. [Chwerthin.] Ond rwy'n credu bod hyn yn dangos y gallwn fod yn unedig pan fydd pethau'n bwysig, ac mae gormod o'n treftadaeth wedi diflannu.
Mae adeiladau hardd ledled Cymru wedi cael eu gadael i bydru tan y bydd datblygwyr, yn anochel, yn dweud wrth awdurdodau cynllunio lleol na ellir eu hachub. Ac mae pwynt Jenny Rathbone yn eithriadol o bwysig am yr allyriadau carbon hefyd. Dylem fod yn ail-ddychmygu'r adeiladau hardd a hanesyddol hyn i roi bywyd newydd iddynt. Hefyd, rwyf wedi cael llond bol ar weld adeiladau pwysig yn cael eu rhestru, ond heb gael eu hachub a'u gwarchod wedyn, ac yn cael eu gadael i bydru. Nid yw hyn yn dderbyniol.
Pryd bynnag y byddaf yn teithio i'r Bont-faen, mae harddwch yr adeiladau dan sylw bob amser yn creu argraff arnaf, adeiladau sy'n atgoffa o ysgol Coed-y-Lan ger fy nghartref ym Mhontypridd, sydd hefyd wedi'i gadael i ddadfeilio. Mae'n sefyllfa drist iawn, ac yn enwedig pan fyddwch yn meddwl am hanes yr adeilad penodol hwn. Nid af i ailadrodd yr ystadegau hynny, ond rwy'n cytuno â chi, Joel: mewn perthynas â rôl menywod mewn gwyddoniaeth, mae hwn yn adeilad o bwys. Ac yn amlwg, nid fi yw'r unig un sy'n gweld gwerth yr adeilad a'i arwyddocâd hanesyddol. Yn wir, ar y wefan a sefydlwyd gan y grŵp ymgyrchu, ceir rhestr o 20 o arbenigwyr blaenllaw ar adeiladau hanesyddol, haneswyr a phenseiri, a phob un ohonynt yn cefnogi rhestru'r adeilad a'i drawsnewid yn sensitif. Mae'r rhain yn cynnwys Dr Eurwyn Wiliam, arbenigwr ar adeiladau hanesyddol yn Amgueddfa Cymru yn flaenorol, cyn-aelod o Gyngor Adeiladau Hanesyddol Cymru a chyn-gadeirydd Comisiwn Brenhinol Henebion Cymru, sy'n aml wedi cynghori Cadw ar faterion o'r fath. Eto i gyd, mae'n ymddangos bod eu barn hwy a barn trigolion lleol wedi'u diystyru, gan arwain at Cadw yn gwrthod rhestru'r adeilad.
Deallaf yn iawn yr angen am dai cymdeithasol fforddiadwy yn y Bont-faen—pwynt a wnaed gan yr un llythyr a gefais sy'n cefnogi dymchwel yr adeilad. Ond fel y dangosir yn y degau o lythyrau a gefais yn cefnogi achub yr adeilad, nid yw'n fater o naill ai/neu, ac mae yna ffordd y gallwn gyflawni'r gorau o'r ddau fyd: achub yr adeilad a'i addasu at ddiben gwahanol. Mae Save Britain's Heritage, sy'n gweithio gyda'r pensaer Philip Tilbury, wedi cynhyrchu cynllun amgen, sy'n dangos digon o le i greu 23 o fflatiau o fewn yr ysgol, yn ogystal â 12 o fflatiau newydd a dau dŷ newydd ar y tir cyfagos. Rwy'n annog y Dirprwy Weinidog i ofyn i'w swyddogion ymchwilio ymhellach i'r mater hwn, yn ogystal â'r cynlluniau amgen a gyflwynwyd.
Mae gan Historic Scotland a Historic England weithdrefnau sefydledig pan geir anghydfodau tebyg i hyn, sy'n caniatáu ar gyfer adolygiad annibynnol gan gymheiriaid allanol mewn amgylchiadau o'r fath—rhywbeth y credaf y byddai o fudd yn yr achos hwn. Dyma gyfle i ail-ddychmygu adeilad hanesyddol i ddiwallu anghenion lleol. Rwy'n cefnogi'r ddeiseb yn bendant iawn ac yn diolch i'r holl etholwyr sydd wedi cysylltu â mi ar y mater hwn.
I now call on the Deputy Minister for arts and sport, Dawn Bowden.
Galwaf yn awr ar y Dirprwy Weinidog celfyddydau a chwaraeon, Dawn Bowden.
Thank you. Can I first of all thank all those Members who have spoken in this debate this afternoon, and for highlighting the strength of feeling towards this former school? And I do understand the strength of feeling that has been expressed, and I've had a similar issue myself, in my own constituency, with the Hoover building, which is hugely important to Merthyr Tydfil for all the reasons that anybody who knows about the history of Merthyr Tydfil will understand. But that's never been listed for all the reasons that I'll come on to now.
So, I do fully acknowledge the historical interest of the school, and I agree it will be a huge shame to see it demolished. However, to be listed by the Welsh Government, a building must demonstrate architectural and historic qualities of national significance. So, it has to meet both those criteria, as set out in that national listing criteria. This building has effectively been assessed against the listing criteria three times: first, as part of the national community listing resurvey of Cowbridge in 1999, then by Cadw historic buildings specialists in response to a request in 2018, and again by an independent expert in 2020. The later assessments included the careful scrutiny of all the evidence provided by the campaigners. The conclusion was that, unfortunately, the criteria are not met in this instance. The assessment—[Interruption].
Diolch. A gaf fi ddiolch yn gyntaf i'r holl Aelodau sydd wedi siarad yn y ddadl hon y prynhawn yma, ac am dynnu sylw at gryfder y teimlad ynghylch yr hen ysgol hon? Ac rwy'n deall cryfder y teimlad a fynegwyd, ac wedi cael achos tebyg fy hun, yn fy etholaeth, gydag adeilad Hoover, sy'n hynod bwysig i Ferthyr Tudful am yr holl resymau y bydd unrhyw un sy'n gwybod am hanes Merthyr Tudful yn eu deall. Ond nid yw hwnnw erioed wedi ei restru am yr holl resymau y dof atynt yn awr.
Felly, rwy'n llwyr gydnabod diddordeb hanesyddol yr ysgol, ac rwy'n cytuno y bydd yn drueni mawr ei gweld yn cael ei dymchwel. Fodd bynnag, i'w restru gan Lywodraeth Cymru, rhaid i adeilad ddangos rhinweddau pensaernïol a hanesyddol o arwyddocâd cenedlaethol. Felly, rhaid iddo fodloni'r ddau faen prawf hynny, fel y nodir yn y meini prawf rhestru cenedlaethol. Mae'r adeilad hwn i bob pwrpas wedi'i asesu yn erbyn y meini prawf rhestru dair gwaith: yn gyntaf, fel rhan o ailarolwg cenedlaethol o restru cymunedol y Bont-faen ym 1999, yna gan arbenigwyr adeiladau hanesyddol Cadw mewn ymateb i gais yn 2018, ac eto gan arbenigwr annibynnol yn 2020. Roedd yr asesiadau diweddarach yn cynnwys craffu gofalus ar yr holl dystiolaeth a ddarparwyd gan yr ymgyrchwyr. Y casgliad oedd, yn anffodus, nad yw'r meini prawf wedi eu bodloni yn yr achos hwn. Yr asesiad—[Torri ar draws].
I wonder if I could challenge you, Minister, to say that this is missing the point. Because it does not meet the criteria for sustainability, which is reduce, re-use, recycle. So, the Cadw framework needs to change, or the planning system needs to change, to capture that.
Tybed a gaf eich herio, Weinidog, drwy ddweud bod hyn yn methu'r pwynt. Oherwydd nid yw'n bodloni'r meini prawf ar gyfer cynaliadwyedd, sef arbed, ailddefnyddio ac ailgylchu. Felly, mae angen i fframwaith Cadw newid, neu mae angen i'r system gynllunio newid, er mwyn cynnwys hynny.
Okay. If I carry on, I may cover some of those points.
But the conclusion was that, unfortunately, the criteria are not met in this instance. The assessment—contrary, Darren, to the point that you raised—did recognise the historical importance of the introduction of intermediate schools for girls, but architecturally, this building has undergone extensive change, both historically and in more recent times. The better preserved a building is architecturally, the better it is able to illustrate its history and to contribute to our national story. This building no longer survives as built, its form has been compromised by large-scale alterations in 1909 and more recently, as recently as a few years ago, with the insertion of UPVC windows.
Now, while I note the call for a new category of listing, I don't share the view that reducing the threshold for listing to capture buildings such as Cowbridge school is appropriate. This would undermine the integrity of those buildings that have already been identified as being of national importance. There are already 30,000 listed buildings in Wales, more than any other UK nation in proportion to the size of its population.
O'r gorau. Os caf barhau, efallai y byddaf yn ymdrin â rhai o'r pwyntiau hynny.
Ond yn anffodus, y casgliad oedd nad yw'r meini prawf yn cael eu bodloni yn yr achos hwn. Roedd yr asesiad—yn groes i'r pwynt a godwyd gennych chi, Darren—yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd hanesyddol cyflwyno ysgolion canolradd i ferched, ond yn bensaernïol, mae'r adeilad wedi newid yn helaeth, yn hanesyddol ac yn fwy diweddar. Y gorau y bydd adeilad wedi'i gadw yn bensaernïol, gorau oll y gall ddangos ei hanes a chyfrannu at ein stori genedlaethol. Nid yw'r adeilad hwn bellach yn goroesi yn y ffordd y'i hadeiladwyd, mae ei ffurf wedi ei newid gan newidiadau ar raddfa fawr yn 1909 ac yn fwy diweddar, mor ddiweddar ag ychydig flynyddoedd yn ôl, pan gafodd ffenestri UPVC eu gosod.
Nawr, er fy mod yn nodi'r alwad am gategori rhestru newydd, nid wyf yn rhannu'r farn fod gostwng y trothwy ar gyfer rhestru i gynnwys adeiladau fel ysgol y Bont-faen yn briodol. Byddai hyn yn tanseilio uniondeb yr adeiladau y nodwyd eu bod eisoes o bwysigrwydd cenedlaethol. Ceir 30,000 o adeiladau rhestredig yng Nghymru eisoes, mwy nag unrhyw wlad arall yn y DU yn ôl maint ei phoblogaeth.
I'm very grateful to you for taking the intervention. Doesn't the fact that many of these buildings are being listed on Coflein, the national database of historic monuments, tell us that there is a special place for these buildings in our nation and there does deserve to be a level of protection for them that makes us think twice, three times, four times before we decide to demolish them? That is why attaching another grade—. We've got grade I listed, which are the absolute belters, if you like, the ones that we really do have to do everything to protect and never let go to rack and ruin; grade II, a slightly different standard, but things in place to protect them. Grade III could be a different level of protection. Do you accept that that is something you could look at?
Rwy'n ddiolchgar iawn i chi am gymryd yr ymyriad. Onid yw'r ffaith bod llawer o'r adeiladau hyn yn cael eu rhestru ar Coflein, y gronfa ddata genedlaethol o henebion hanesyddol, yn dweud wrthym fod lle arbennig i'r adeiladau hyn yn ein gwlad a'u bod yn haeddu lefel o warchodaeth sy'n gwneud inni feddwl ddwywaith, dair gwaith, bedair gwaith cyn inni benderfynu eu dymchwel? Dyna pam y mae gosod gradd arall—. Mae gennym adeilad rhestredig gradd I, sef y goreuon os mynnwch, y rhai y mae'n rhaid inni wneud popeth i'w gwarchod a pheidio byth â gadael iddynt fynd â'u pen iddynt; gradd II, safon ychydig yn wahanol, ond bod pethau yn eu lle i'w gwarchod. Gallai Gradd III fod yn lefel wahanol o warchodaeth. A ydych yn derbyn bod hynny'n rhywbeth y gallech edrych arno?
I think we need to—. Again, you need to listen to the rest of what I'm going to say, because I am dealing with how I feel that buildings like this do need to be dealt with.
I do recognise that what I've said so far is not the answer that the campaigners want to hear, and I know that they have requested a peer review by heritage organisations in England and Scotland, but further review is inappropriate as a legally binding decision has now been taken. In law, the building has been rejected for listing, and the proper mechanism for reviewing that decision was through the courts on application for judicial review. So, unless there is new evidence, there is no basis on which to change this decision.
The primary objective of the campaign, of course, is to see this building retained and reused, which is the point that Jenny Rathbone was making, and while the building does not meet the criteria for national listing, this does not mean that it is not of value for its contribution to the local area. The Vale of Glamorgan Council has a local list of county treasures, and while the former school is not included, I would strongly encourage all local authorities to produce a local list and keep it up to date frequently.
Unfortunately, this school is not on the Vale of Glamorgan's list, and I don't know why that is. I hear what Darren Millar says about local authorities not having the capacity, but I would suggest that local authorities have a responsibility for buildings of local interest that they can add to their local lists. The demolitions of buildings that are included on a local list can be regulated by the local authority making an article 4 direction under the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) Order 1995, and Cadw has provided helpful guidance to local authorities on this, and it's on the website.
The planning application to demolish the building for residential development is due to be considered by the Vale of Glamorgan Council's planning committee on 2 March. You may be interested to know that the local authority's development plan requires development proposals to preserve or enhance the architectural and historic qualities of buildings. This is not limited to statutorily or locally listed buildings, but all buildings. Therefore, the preservation of the building is a material consideration and something that must be taken into account before the council makes its decision.
Consideration of the views of local communities is an important foundation of our planning system, so I would therefore encourage everyone who is concerned about the loss of this building to urgently submit their representations to the council if they've not already done so. The matter of listing the building at national level has been concluded. The fate of the building is now in the hands of the council in deciding the planning application, but it is also open to the applicant to change the scheme, adapting the building, rather than demolishing it. Diolch yn fawr.
Rwy'n credu bod angen inni—. Unwaith eto, mae angen ichi wrando ar weddill yr hyn rwy'n mynd i'w ddweud, oherwydd rwy'n trafod sut y teimlaf fod angen ymdrin ag adeiladau fel hyn.
Rwy'n cydnabod nad yw'r hyn a ddywedais hyd yma yn ateb y mae'r ymgyrchwyr am ei glywed, a gwn eu bod wedi gofyn am adolygiad cymheiriaid gan sefydliadau treftadaeth yn Lloegr a'r Alban, ond mae adolygiad pellach yn amhriodol am fod penderfyniad sy'n rhwymo mewn cyfraith wedi'i wneud bellach. Yn ôl y gyfraith, mae'r adeilad wedi'i wrthod ar gyfer ei restru, a'r mecanwaith priodol ar gyfer adolygu'r penderfyniad hwnnw oedd drwy'r llysoedd mewn cais am adolygiad barnwrol. Felly, oni cheir tystiolaeth newydd, nid oes sail i newid y penderfyniad hwn.
Prif amcan yr ymgyrch, wrth gwrs, yw gweld yr adeilad hwn yn cael ei gadw a'i ailddefnyddio, sef y pwynt a wnaeth Jenny Rathbone, ac er nad yw'r adeilad yn bodloni'r meini prawf ar gyfer rhestru cenedlaethol, nid yw hynny'n golygu nad oes gwerth iddo ar sail ei gyfraniad i'r ardal leol. Mae gan Gyngor Bro Morgannwg restr leol o drysorau sirol, ac er nad yw'r hen ysgol wedi'i chynnwys, byddwn yn annog pob awdurdod lleol yn gryf i lunio rhestr leol a'i diweddaru'n aml.
Yn anffodus, nid yw'r ysgol hon ar restr Bro Morgannwg, ac nid wyf yn gwybod pam. Clywaf yr hyn y mae Darren Millar yn ei ddweud, nad oes gan awdurdodau lleol gapasiti i'w wneud, ond hoffwn awgrymu bod gan awdurdodau lleol gyfrifoldeb am adeiladau o ddiddordeb lleol y gallant eu hychwanegu at eu rhestrau lleol. Gall yr awdurdod lleol reoleiddio gwaith i ddymchwel adeiladau sydd wedi'u cynnwys ar restr leol gan wneud cyfarwyddyd erthygl 4 o dan Orchymyn Cynllunio Gwlad a Thref (Datblygu Cyffredinol a Ganiateir) 1995, ac mae Cadw wedi rhoi arweiniad defnyddiol i awdurdodau lleol ar hyn, ac mae ar y wefan.
Bydd y cais cynllunio i ddymchwel yr adeilad ar gyfer datblygiad preswyl yn cael ei ystyried gan bwyllgor cynllunio Cyngor Bro Morgannwg ar 2 Mawrth. Efallai y bydd o ddiddordeb ichi wybod bod cynllun datblygu'r awdurdod lleol yn gofyn am gynigion datblygu i warchod neu wella rhinweddau pensaernïol a hanesyddol adeiladau. Nid yw hyn wedi'i gyfyngu i adeiladau a restrir yn statudol neu'n lleol, ond pob adeilad. Felly, mae gwarchod yr adeilad yn ystyriaeth berthnasol ac yn rhywbeth y mae'n rhaid rhoi sylw iddo cyn i'r cyngor wneud ei benderfyniad.
Mae ystyried safbwyntiau cymunedau lleol yn sylfaen bwysig i'n system gynllunio, felly byddwn yn annog pawb sy'n pryderu am golli'r adeilad hwn i gyflwyno eu sylwadau i'r cyngor ar frys os nad ydynt eisoes wedi gwneud hynny. Mae mater rhestru'r adeilad ar lefel genedlaethol wedi gorffen. Mae tynged yr adeilad bellach yn nwylo'r cyngor wrth iddynt benderfynu ar y cais cynllunio, ond mae hefyd yn agored i'r ymgeisydd newid y cynllun, ac addasu'r adeilad, yn hytrach na'i ddymchwel. Diolch yn fawr.
I now call on Jack Sargeant as Chair of the Petitions Committee to respond.
Galwaf yn awr ar Jack Sargeant fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Deisebau i ymateb.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, acting Llywydd. I think that today has been a good and important debate, and I thank all Members for their contributions and the Minister for her response. We started with a powerful contribution from Joel James, who supported the petition in its entirety, I believe, and highlighted the teaching of science to women and girls in the school—a historic and important event.
We did go on to Darren Millar, who, I think, reiterated the point I was trying to make about the wider importance of buildings across Wales. You referenced the art deco property in Rhos-on-Sea and you referenced the church and the charity that you're involved with, which was intervened by colleague Rhys ab Owen who also went on to highlight his experiences with the chapels across Wales.
And then, I must say, we had absolute scenes in the Senedd, where Jenny Rathbone and Heledd Fychan agreed with colleagues Joel James and Darren Millar—it's a historic day for the Senedd, I tell you that. But we did hear from Jenny Rathbone about the Victorian pub, the Roath Park pub in her own constituency, and that those decisions that are made should be in line with the well-being of future generations Act. Heledd Fychan claimed we should be looking at new leases of life—not just saving buildings of historical importance, but new leases of life, reimagining buildings, and going further than perhaps we do already.
And then, coming to the Minister's response, the Minister did say at the start that she recognises the strength of feeling not just from this petition but those similar petitions across Wales. You referenced your own constituency within that response. And you did go on to note that it's unlikely the response would be welcomed by the petitioners because it might not be the outcome they wanted, but you urged the petitioners and those with a strength of feeling to contact their local authority and make representations to them.
I do think—again, I'll go back to my starting point—that this is an important debate today. I think this is what the Petitions Committee is all about: we get talking and raising the points that are people's priorities in their Parliament, the Welsh Senedd. So, I would urge everyone who wants to shape or influence our Parliament, their Parliament, to start or sign a petition. The process is relatively easy and straightforward, and obviously the clerking team and other people who are behind the scenes and do all the hard work—and I do thank them for all they do—are ready and waiting to help.
In closing and in concluding, acting Presiding Officer, on behalf of the Senedd committee, I'd like to say my final thank you to Sara Pedersen for submitting this petition, everyone who has signed this petition, and those contributions today. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Lywydd dros dro. Credaf fod heddiw wedi bod yn ddadl dda a phwysig, a diolch i'r holl Aelodau am eu cyfraniadau a'r Gweinidog am ei hymateb. Fe wnaethom ddechrau gyda chyfraniad pwerus gan Joel James, a gefnogodd y ddeiseb yn ei chyfanrwydd, rwy'n credu, ac a dynnodd sylw at addysgu gwyddoniaeth i fenywod a merched yn yr ysgol—digwyddiad hanesyddol a phwysig.
Aethom ymlaen at Darren Millar, a ailadroddodd y pwynt yr oeddwn yn ceisio'i wneud, rwy'n credu, am bwysigrwydd ehangach adeiladau ledled Cymru. Fe gyfeirioch chi at eiddo art déco yn Llandrillo-yn-Rhos ac fe sonioch chi am yr eglwys a'r elusen yr ydych yn ymwneud â hi, ac fe wnaeth y cyd-Aelod, Rhys ab Owen, ymyriad hefyd a dynnai sylw at ei brofiadau gyda'r capeli ledled Cymru.
Ac yna, rhaid imi ddweud, cawsom olygfeydd syfrdanol yn y Senedd, lle cytunodd Jenny Rathbone a Heledd Fychan â'u cyd-Aelodau, Joel James a Darren Millar—mae'n ddiwrnod hanesyddol i'r Senedd, rwy'n dweud hynny wrthych. Ond clywsom gan Jenny Rathbone am dafarn Fictoraidd, tafarn Roath Park yn ei hetholaeth hi, ac y dylai'r penderfyniadau a wneir fod yn unol â Deddf llesiant cenedlaethau'r dyfodol. Honnodd Heledd Fychan y dylem edrych ar adfywio—nid dim ond achub adeiladau o bwysigrwydd hanesyddol, ond eu hadfywio, ail-ddychmygu adeiladau, a mynd ymhellach nag a wnawn eisoes o bosibl.
Ac yna, i ddod at ymateb y Gweinidog, dywedodd y Gweinidog ar y dechrau ei bod yn cydnabod y teimladau cryfion nid yn unig o'r ddeiseb hon ond deisebau tebyg ledled Cymru. Fe gyfeirioch chi at eich etholaeth eich hun yn yr ymateb hwnnw. Ac aethoch ymlaen i nodi ei bod yn annhebygol y byddai'r deisebwyr yn croesawu'r ymateb oherwydd efallai nad dyma'r canlyniad yr oeddent am ei gael, ond fe wnaethoch annog y deisebwyr a'r rhai sy'n teimlo'n gryf am hyn i gysylltu â'u hawdurdod lleol a chyflwyno sylwadau iddynt.
Rwy'n credu—unwaith eto, af yn ôl at fy man cychwyn—fod hon yn ddadl bwysig heddiw. Rwy'n credu mai dyma yw hanfod y Pwyllgor Deisebau: rydym yn trafod ac yn codi'r pwyntiau sy'n flaenoriaethau i bobl yn eu Senedd, Senedd Cymru. Felly, byddwn yn annog pawb sydd am siapio neu ddylanwadu ar ein Senedd, eu Senedd hwy, i ddechrau neu lofnodi deiseb. Mae'r broses yn gymharol hawdd a syml, ac yn amlwg mae'r tîm clercio a phobl eraill sydd y tu ôl i'r llenni ac sy'n gwneud yr holl waith caled—a diolch iddynt am bopeth a wnânt—yn barod ac yn aros i helpu.
Wrth gloi ac i orffen, Lywydd dros dro, ar ran pwyllgor y Senedd, hoffwn ddweud diolch yn olaf i Sara Pedersen am gyflwyno'r ddeiseb hon, pawb sydd wedi llofnodi'r ddeiseb, a'r cyfraniadau hynny heddiw. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
The motion is therefore to agree to note the petition. Does anybody object? No. Okay.
Y cynnig felly yw cytuno i nodi'r ddeiseb. A oes unrhyw un yn gwrthwynebu? Nac oes. Iawn.
Derbyniwyd y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.
Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.
Detholwyd y gwelliant canlynol: gwelliant 1 yn enw Lesley Griffiths.
The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths.
We shall move on now to item 7, the Welsh Conservatives debate on local government funding. I call on Sam Rowlands to move the motion.
Symudwn ymlaen yn awr at eitem 7, dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig ar ariannu llywodraeth leol. Galwaf ar Sam Rowlands i wneud y cynnig.
Cynnig NDM7923 Darren Millar
Cynnig bod y Senedd:
1. Yn diolch i gynghorwyr, awdurdodau lleol a'u staff ledled Cymru am eu rôl yn ystod pandemig y coronafeirws.
2. Yn credu bod yn rhaid i awdurdodau lleol Cymru gael eu hariannu'n ddigonol i'w galluogi i ddarparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus o'r ansawdd uchel y maent yn anelu ato.
3. Yn gresynu at y ffaith nad yw'r fformiwla ariannu llywodraeth leol bresennol yn addas i'r diben.
4. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i gomisiynu adolygiad annibynnol allanol o ariannu llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru i sicrhau ei fod yn darparu cyllid teg ar gyfer pob rhan o'r wlad.
Motion NDM7923 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Thanks councillors, local authorities and their staff across Wales for their role during the coronavirus pandemic.
2. Believes that Welsh local authorities must be adequately funded to enable them to deliver the high quality public services to which they aspire.
3. Regrets that the current local government funding formula is not fit for purpose.
4. Calls on the Welsh Government to commission an external independent review of the funding of local government in Wales to ensure it delivers fair funding for all parts of the country.
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
Diolch, acting Llywydd. I'm delighted to move the motion tabled today in the name of my colleague Darren Millar regarding local government funding. I will again declare an interest as an elected member of Conwy County Borough Council as well.
As the start of this motion here points to, and as I've mentioned time and time again in this Chamber, and it's something that I'll continue to raise, throughout the COVID-19 pandemic councils went above and beyond. Many of us know the sacrifice, hard work and dedication that council staff endured and they deserve to be praised for their hard work, right from our social care workers through to our teaching assistants, librarians through to recycling crews, all of whom have gone above and beyond. In light of this, I was pleased to see the Government didn't delete point 1 of our motion here today, thanking councillors, local authorities and their staff across Wales for their role during the pandemic. It's great to see that as a Senedd we can look to agree on this. Nevertheless, acting Llywydd, it's vitally important to recognise that councils had been doing exceptional work well before the pandemic and will continue to do so afterwards. As many people will agree, councils are often best placed to represent the needs of local people, of course.
Devolution was, in fact, introduced to bring powers as close to people as possible, and this is what councils can and should do. But, for councils to maximise their potential, they need suitable funding to be available to do this, and as point 2 of our motion states, councils must adequately be funded to enable them to deliver the high-quality public services to which they aspire. They need adequate funding to allow them to maximise their potential, which, of course, the Government also agrees with today. Frustratingly, and as outlined in point 3 of our motion here, the current local government funding formula simply isn't fit for purpose, though. I will come on to specifically why I think this is in a moment, rather than just making some soundbites.
Diolch, Lywydd dros dro. Rwy'n falch iawn o wneud y cynnig a gyflwynwyd heddiw yn enw fy nghyd-Aelod, Darren Millar, ynghylch ariannu llywodraeth leol. Unwaith eto, rwy'n datgan buddiant fel aelod etholedig o Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Conwy hefyd.
Fel y mae dechrau'r cynnig hwn yn ei nodi, ac fel y soniais dro ar ôl tro yn y Siambr hon, ac mae'n rhywbeth y byddaf yn parhau i'w godi, drwy gydol y pandemig COVID-19 aeth y cynghorau y tu hwnt i'r galw. Mae llawer ohonom yn gwybod am aberth, gwaith caled ac ymroddiad staff y cynghorau ac maent yn haeddu cael eu canmol am eu gwaith caled, o'n gweithwyr gofal cymdeithasol i'n cynorthwywyr addysgu, o lyfrgellwyr i griwiau ailgylchu, mae pob un ohonynt wedi mynd y tu hwnt i'r galw. Yng ngoleuni hyn, roeddwn yn falch o weld na wnaeth y Llywodraeth ddileu pwynt 1 ein cynnig yma heddiw, sy'n diolch i gynghorwyr, awdurdodau lleol a'u staff ledled Cymru am eu rôl yn ystod y pandemig. Mae'n wych gweld y gallwn ni fel Senedd gytuno ar hyn. Serch hynny, Lywydd dros dro, mae'n hanfodol bwysig cydnabod bod cynghorau wedi bod yn gwneud gwaith eithriadol ymhell cyn y pandemig a byddant yn parhau i wneud hynny wedyn. Fel y bydd llawer o bobl yn cytuno, y cynghorau yn aml sydd yn y sefyllfa orau i gynrychioli anghenion pobl leol, wrth gwrs.
Cyflwynwyd datganoli, mewn gwirionedd, i ddod â phwerau mor agos â phosibl at y bobl, a dyna y gallai ac y dylai cynghorau ei wneud. Ond er mwyn i gynghorau wneud y mwyaf o'u potensial, maent angen i gyllid addas fod ar gael i wneud hyn, ac fel y dywed pwynt 2 o'n cynnig, rhaid i gynghorau gael eu hariannu'n ddigonol i'w galluogi i ddarparu'r gwasanaethau cyhoeddus o ansawdd uchel y maent yn anelu atynt. Maent angen cyllid digonol i'w galluogi i wneud y mwyaf o'u potensial, ac mae'r Llywodraeth yn cytuno â hynny heddiw. Fodd bynnag, yn rhwystredig, ac fel yr amlinellir ym mhwynt 3 ein cynnig yma, nid yw'r fformiwla bresennol ar gyfer ariannu llywodraeth leol yn addas i'r diben. Byddaf yn trafod pam yn benodol y credaf fod hynny'n wir mewn munud, yn hytrach na gwneud sylwadau bachog yn unig.
As Members will be aware, the local government funding formula represents around 70 per cent of a council's ability to spend on and deliver their services, meaning that this funding dictates the bulk of what councils are able to deliver. As outlined in the Government's amendment today, and as I'm sure many Members on Labour's benches here want to highlight, I do appreciate that the proposed local government settlement for the next financial year will rise by 9.4 per cent. Of course, this is welcomed. Nevertheless, it does come after years and years of underfunding and still doesn't address the fact that the current funding formula is out of date and not fit for purpose.
We also know that the Welsh Government revenue funding for local government fell, in real terms, by around 17 per cent through the last decade, and this decade of decline has clearly had a huge impact on local government services in Wales. This consistent underfunding of councils over many years has left many of them in a weak position to deal with the challenges of the present and the future. This is particularly seen with councils in north Wales—the region I represent, which has an older population and rural areas—who seem to be the losers from the funding formula.
I said I'd talk about some specifics. I want to highlight three issues that I believe warrant the call for a review. The first is the quality of the data used to indicate how much money councils should be supported with. There's a thing called the standard spending assessment, which I'm sure we all enjoy a read of from time to time, and this data in the standard spending assessment drives the decision making behind the funding of councils. But, sadly, a number of the data points in here are over 20 years out of date, and I'll highlight a couple of those that feed into this funding for local authorities. The first one here uses data from 2001, and this looks at how many dependent children are in social rented housing. First of all, 20-year-old data looking at how many dependent children are in social rented housing—none of those children are currently children. So, that funding formula there is completely bonkers. The next one, pensioners living alone in households, again uses data from 2001. Pensioners with limiting, long-term illness again uses data from 2001. In a world that is driven by data, with so much available to support decision making, it's completely inappropriate to be using information that is over 20 years out of date. There are the other points in here that are from 1991. I'm not sure if all the Members were born when some of those data points were used.
Secondly, the current financial formula does not properly reflect our ageing population and the support required to ensure our older people can live their best lives. An obvious example of this is that, looking at the funding formula, it assumes that the cost of councils supporting those over the age of 85 is around £1,500 per person, which may seem like an adequate amount. In the next age category, which is those who are age 60 to 84, the formula assumes that it would cost £10.72 to fund and support those people. So, at the age of 85, suddenly it's £1,500 per person, but for a number of years before that, it's just going to cost £10. It's a huge discrepancy, and a misunderstanding of what it takes to best support our ageing population. And, of course, our ageing population is going to become a more and more significant part of who we need to support, and support well, over coming years. By 2038, a quarter of our population will be over the age of 65 and, currently, in areas such as Conwy, 28 per cent of residents there are over the age of 65, compared to Cardiff, which has around 14 cent. So, you can see there are areas where the funding formula doesn't properly reflect the support required to support our older people. Those areas are going to struggle when it comes to funding from Welsh Government at the moment.
So, the first area is around data, which needs a review. The second area is how the support for older people is properly funded. And the third issue that I see is building confidence in the process of this funding. We can see from Welsh Government's amendment 4 today that Government do not want to hold an external independent review of the funding of local government, yet in today's debate, I'm sure that we'll hear from many on the Government benches about how good the funding formula is. But I'd like to ask: if it's so good, and if it's so right, what's wrong with holding an independent review? How about holding an independent review to show it works really well? What are you worried about in terms of having an independent review? Surely if it's that good, let's undertake that review and prove the point that you want to make, that it's all fine.
To conclude, acting Llywydd, councils do an unbelievable job with the funding that they get. If all councils received fair and right funding, they could flourish even more than they do today. Let's support this motion here today, and have an independent review of the funding of councils. Let's unleash the potential that councils have to offer in supporting their local communities. In closing, I look forward to listening to all contributions from all sides of the political spectrum today regarding this really important issue. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Fel y gŵyr yr Aelodau, mae'r fformiwla ariannu llywodraeth leol y cyfrannu oddeutu 70 y cant o allu cyngor i wario ar eu gwasanaethau a'u darparu, sy'n golygu bod yr arian hwn yn pennu'r rhan fwyaf o'r hyn y gall cynghorau ei gyflawni. Fel yr amlinellwyd yng ngwelliant y Llywodraeth heddiw, ac fel rwy'n siŵr y bydd llawer o'r Aelodau ar feinciau Llafur yma am ei nodi, rwy'n derbyn y bydd y setliad arfaethedig i lywodraeth leol ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf yn codi 9.4 y cant. Mae hyn i'w groesawu wrth gwrs. Serch hynny, daw ar ôl blynyddoedd maith o danariannu ac nid yw'n mynd i'r afael o hyd â'r ffaith bod y fformiwla ariannu bresennol wedi dyddio ac nad yw'n addas i'r diben.
Gwyddom hefyd fod cyllid refeniw Llywodraeth Cymru i lywodraeth leol wedi gostwng tua 17 y cant mewn termau real drwy'r degawd diwethaf, ac mae'n amlwg bod y degawd o ddirywiad wedi cael effaith enfawr ar wasanaethau llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru. Mae tanariannu cynghorau'n gyson dros flynyddoedd lawer wedi gadael llawer ohonynt mewn sefyllfa wan i ymdrin â heriau'r presennol a'r dyfodol. Gwelir hyn yn arbennig gyda chynghorau yn y gogledd—y rhanbarth rwy'n ei gynrychioli, sydd â phoblogaeth hŷn ac ardaloedd gwledig—sydd, i bob golwg, ar eu colled o'r fformiwla ariannu.
Dywedais y byddwn yn siarad am rai pethau manwl. Rwyf am dynnu sylw at dri mater sydd, yn fy marn i, yn cyfiawnhau'r alwad am adolygiad. Y cyntaf yw ansawdd y data a ddefnyddir i ddangos faint o arian y dylid ei roi i gefnogi cynghorau. Ceir rhywbeth a elwir yn asesiad gwariant safonol, rhywbeth rwy'n siŵr ein bod i gyd yn mwynhau ei ddarllen o bryd i'w gilydd, ac mae'r data yn yr asesiad gwariant safonol yn llywio'r broses o wneud penderfyniadau ar gyfer ariannu cynghorau. Ond yn anffodus, mae nifer o'r pwyntiau data yma dros 20 oed, ac rwyf am dynnu sylw at un neu ddau o'r rheini sy'n bwydo i'r drefn hon o ariannu awdurdodau lleol. Mae'r un cyntaf yma yn defnyddio data o 2001, ac mae'n edrych ar faint o blant dibynnol sy'n byw mewn tai rhent cymdeithasol. Yn gyntaf oll, data 20 oed sy'n edrych ar faint o blant dibynnol sy'n byw mewn tai rhent cymdeithasol—nid oes yr un o'r plant hynny'n blant yn awr. Felly, mae'r fformiwla ariannu honno'n gwbl wallgof. Mae'r nesaf, pensiynwyr sy'n byw ar eu pen eu hunain mewn cartrefi, unwaith eto'n defnyddio data o 2001. Unwaith eto, mae pensiynwyr sydd â salwch cyfyngus hirdymor yn defnyddio data o 2001. Mewn byd sy'n cael ei yrru gan ddata, gyda chymaint ar gael i gefnogi'r broses o wneud penderfyniadau, mae'n gwbl amhriodol defnyddio gwybodaeth sydd dros 20 oed. Ceir manylion eraill yma ers 1991. Nid wyf yn siŵr os oedd pob un o'r Aelodau wedi'u geni pan ddefnyddiwyd rhai o'r pwyntiau data hynny.
Yn ail, nid yw'r fformiwla ariannol bresennol yn adlewyrchu ein poblogaeth sy'n heneiddio yn briodol a'r cymorth sydd ei angen i sicrhau bod ein pobl hŷn yn gallu byw eu bywydau gorau. Enghraifft amlwg o hyn, o edrych ar y fformiwla ariannu, yw ei bod yn rhagdybio bod y gost i gynghorau sy'n cefnogi rhai dros 85 oed oddeutu £1,500 y pen, a allai ymddangos fel swm digonol. Yn y categori oedran nesaf, sef pobl rhwng 60 ac 84 oed, mae'r fformiwla'n rhagdybio y byddai'n costio £10.72 i ariannu a chefnogi'r bobl hynny. Felly, yn sydyn, yn 85 oed, mae'n £1,500 y pen, ond am nifer o flynyddoedd cyn hynny, mae'n costio £10. Mae'n anghysondeb enfawr, ac yn camddeall yr hyn y mae'n ei gymryd i gefnogi ein poblogaeth sy'n heneiddio yn y ffordd orau. Ac wrth gwrs, mae ein poblogaeth sy'n heneiddio yn mynd i ddod yn rhan fwy a mwy sylweddol o'r boblogaeth y bydd angen inni eu cefnogi, a'u cefnogi'n dda, dros y blynyddoedd nesaf. Erbyn 2038, bydd chwarter ein poblogaeth dros 65 oed ac ar hyn o bryd, mewn ardaloedd fel Conwy, mae 28 y cant o'r trigolion yno dros 65 oed, o'i gymharu â Chaerdydd, sydd â thua 14 y cant. Felly, gallwch weld bod yna feysydd lle nad yw'r fformiwla ariannu yn adlewyrchu'n briodol y cymorth sy'n ofynnol i gefnogi ein pobl hŷn. Mae'r ardaloedd hynny'n mynd i'w chael hi'n anodd gyda'r cyllid a ddaw gan Lywodraeth Cymru ar hyn o bryd.
Felly, mae'r maes cyntaf yn ymwneud â data, ac mae angen ei adolygu. Yr ail faes yw sut y caiff y cymorth i bobl hŷn ei ariannu'n briodol. A'r trydydd mater a welaf yw meithrin hyder yn y broses o ariannu. Gallwn weld o welliant 4 Llywodraeth Cymru heddiw nad yw'r Llywodraeth am gynnal adolygiad annibynnol allanol o ariannu llywodraeth leol, ac eto yn y ddadl heddiw, rwy'n siŵr y byddwn yn clywed gan lawer ar feinciau'r Llywodraeth pa mor dda yw'r fformiwla ariannu. Ond hoffwn ofyn: os yw mor dda, ac os yw mor gywir, beth sydd o'i le ar gynnal adolygiad annibynnol? Beth am gynnal adolygiad annibynnol i ddangos ei fod yn gweithio'n dda iawn? Beth sy'n peri pryder i chi ynglŷn â chael adolygiad annibynnol? Os yw mor dda, gadewch inni gynnal yr adolygiad a phrofi'r pwynt yr ydych am ei wneud, ei fod yn hollol iawn.
I gloi, Lywydd dros dro, mae cynghorau'n gwneud gwaith anghredadwy gyda'r cyllid a gânt. Pe bai pob cyngor yn cael arian teg a chywir, gallent ffynnu hyd yn oed yn well nag a wnânt heddiw. Gadewch inni gefnogi'r cynnig hwn heddiw, a chael adolygiad annibynnol o ariannu cynghorau. Gadewch inni ryddhau'r potensial sydd gan gynghorau i'w gynnig wrth iddynt gefnogi eu cymunedau lleol. Wrth orffen, edrychaf ymlaen at wrando ar bob cyfraniad o bob ochr i'r sbectrwm gwleidyddol heddiw ar y mater pwysig hwn. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
I have selected the amendment to the motion. I call on the Minister for Finance and Local Government to formally move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.
Rwyf wedi dethol y gwelliant i'r cynnig. Galwaf ar y Gweinidog Cyllid a Llywodraeth Leol i gynnig gwelliant 1, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Lesley Griffiths, yn ffurfiol.
Gwelliant 1—Lesley Griffiths
Dileu pwyntiau 3 a 4 a rhoi yn eu lle:
Yn nodi'r cynnydd arfaethedig o 9.4 y cant yn y setliad llywodraeth leol ar gyfer 2022-23 a gyhoeddwyd ar 16 Rhagfyr 2021, a fydd yn parhau i gynorthwyo awdurdodau i ddarparu gwasanaethau o safon uchel.
Yn cydnabod bod llywodraeth leol a Llywodraeth Cymru ar y cyd yn parhau i adolygu a datblygu'r fformiwla ariannu fel ei bod yn parhau i fod yn deg, yn addas i'r diben ac yn cynnig sefydlogrwydd ac ymatebolrwydd i awdurdodau.
Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths
Delete points 3 and 4 and replace with:
Notes the proposed local government settlement increase for 2022-23 of 9.4 per cent announced on 16 December 2021, which will continue to support authorities to deliver high quality services.
Recognises that local government and the Welsh Government continue to jointly review and develop the funding formula so that it continues to be fair, fit for purpose and offers authorities both stability and responsiveness.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 1.
Amendment 1 moved.
I move.
Rwy'n cynnig.
I'm very pleased that, at the last Senedd election, we had a large number of councillors who had been council leaders, like Sam Rowlands, deputy leaders and cabinet members elected to the Senedd—people who know first-hand the importance of local government services and the money needed to run them. I will not always agree with them, but I respect their knowledge and experience of local government. I agree we should thank councillors and local authorities and their staff throughout Wales for the role during the coronavirus pandemic. Councillors and councils played a remarkable role.
Just dealing with one single issue, the issue of homelessness, the Welsh Government provided a £10 million fund that enabled local authorities to engage with all those sleeping rough, and ensure they had access to safe and suitable accommodation to meet the pandemic restrictions. But it was the local authorities and their staff who did the work. Within the first two weeks of lockdown, local authorities accommodated or reaccommodated over 500 households who'd either been sleeping rough or were in accommodation unsuitable for social distancing. This figure eventually rose to over 1,000.
Local authorities reconfigured teams and redeployed staff to ensure effective provision of services and also found new ways of working with partners. The mechanism of a centralised co-ordination cell within each council brought together partners such as health, registered social landlords, police and probation, third sector organisations and others to collectively plan and deliver services—an example of Welsh local government in action. We had a serious fire in Swansea several years ago, and the local authority were the only people who could take control and ensure it was dealt with, while everybody else, including the fire service, were trying to find reasons why it wasn't really their responsibility, and they shouldn't be having to pay for it. The local authority stepped in and made sure it was dealt with. That's happened in local authorities the length and breadth of Wales, and I'm sure that colleagues here could talk about what was done in their own local authorities.
The services provided by the 22 local authorities in Wales provide the basic services that people need. The funding formula, or aggregated external finance, which was previously known as the rate support grant before business rates were centralised, is meant to provide resources to financially support local authorities above their local council tax income. The local government finance settlement determines how much of the funding provided for Wales is given to each local authority. This funding contains the revenue support grant and non-domestic rates, and is distributed on the basis of a needs-based formula. I'm one of those people who thinks that the national non-domestic rates should be returned to local authorities. We talk often about devolution; devolution means that some things have to go down from here to local authorities and other places. Devolution should not stop in Cardiff and the Senedd.
Local authorities can raise money themselves locally—not just the council tax, but, depending where you are, things like car parking, fees and charges. But if you look at it, the distribution of properties in each band varies enormously. The number of properties in each council tax band varies. Some, such as Blaenau Gwent, have over half their properties in band A, and very few properties in the top two bands. Monmouthshire, by comparison, has only just over 1 per cent of its properties in band A and 6 per cent of its properties in the top two bands. Monmouthshire, with more high-value properties, has a greater ability to raise money through local taxation.
Returning to what the Welsh Government funding is meant to be, it means that, if we intend to be fair, councils such as Monmouth should get less per person than councils like Blaenau Gwent from the Welsh Government. What we need is two things: business rates returned to local councils, which would have a huge effect, and a fairer system of council tax with either additional bands or, preferably, council tax based upon the absolute value of the property. You can take a property just over a band, and all of a sudden, people end up paying substantially more. But we also know, don't we, that if you are band A, you pay about half—two thirds, sorry—of band D, whereas if you're in band G or H, you pay about twice as much? So, it isn't based on the value of the properties, as such, and it discriminates against people with lower value properties.
Council tax is regressive, but it doesn't have to be. It can be based on the absolute value of properties, and we've also got a situation—something we need to think about—namely, how do we make sure that everybody gets exactly the same level of service? Now, it's been said that Blaenau Gwent has much higher band D properties for council tax, and Monmouthshire has much fewer, but that's because of the distribution. If you live in a three-bedroomed semi-detached house in Blaenau Gwent, you're lucky to be in band A. If you live in a three-bedroomed semi-detached house in somewhere like Chepstow, you're probably in band D. So, there's that difference as well. But I think that we need to make sure that council tax is fair, it needs to be changed, and it needs to make sure that every local authority gets what it deserves.
Rwy'n falch iawn fod gennym, yn etholiad diwethaf y Senedd, nifer mawr o gynghorwyr a fu'n arweinwyr cynghorau, fel Sam Rowlands, dirprwy arweinwyr ac aelodau cabinet wedi eu hethol i'r Senedd—pobl sy'n gwybod yn uniongyrchol am bwysigrwydd gwasanaethau llywodraeth leol a'r arian sydd ei angen i'w rhedeg. Nid wyf bob amser yn cytuno â hwy, ond rwy'n parchu eu gwybodaeth a'u profiad o lywodraeth leol. Rwy'n cytuno y dylem ddiolch i gynghorwyr ac awdurdodau lleol a'u staff ledled Cymru am y rôl yn ystod y pandemig coronafeirws. Chwaraeodd cynghorwyr a chynghorau eu rhan yn rhyfeddol.
I drafod un mater unigol, mater digartrefedd, darparodd Llywodraeth Cymru gronfa o £10 miliwn a alluogodd awdurdodau lleol i gysylltu â phawb a oedd yn cysgu ar y stryd, a sicrhau bod ganddynt ffordd o gael llety diogel ac addas i gydymffurfio â chyfyngiadau'r pandemig. Ond yr awdurdodau lleol a'u staff a wnaeth y gwaith. O fewn pythefnos gyntaf y cyfyngiadau symud, roedd awdurdodau lleol wedi cartrefu neu ail-gartrefu dros 500 o aelwydydd a oedd naill ai wedi bod yn cysgu ar y stryd neu mewn llety a oedd yn anaddas ar gyfer cadw pellter cymdeithasol. Cododd y ffigur hwn yn y pen draw i dros 1,000.
Ad-drefnodd awdurdodau lleol dimau ac adleoli staff i sicrhau bod gwasanaethau'n cael eu darparu'n effeithiol a hefyd, daethant o hyd i ffyrdd newydd o weithio gyda phartneriaid. Daeth system cell gydgysylltu ganolog ym mhob cyngor â phartneriaid megis iechyd, landlordiaid cymdeithasol cofrestredig, yr heddlu a'r gwasanaeth prawf, sefydliadau'r trydydd sector ac eraill at ei gilydd i gynllunio a darparu gwasanaethau ar y cyd—enghraifft o lywodraeth leol Cymru ar waith. Cawsom dân difrifol yn Abertawe sawl blwyddyn yn ôl, a'r awdurdod lleol oedd yr unig bobl a allai gymryd rheolaeth a sicrhau ei fod yn cael ei drin, tra bod pawb arall, gan gynnwys y gwasanaeth tân, yn ceisio dod o hyd i resymau pam nad oedd yn gyfrifoldeb iddynt hwy mewn gwirionedd, ac na ddylent orfod talu amdano. Camodd yr awdurdod lleol i mewn a gwneud yn siŵr ei fod yn cael ei drin. Mae hynny wedi digwydd mewn awdurdodau lleol ar hyd a lled Cymru, ac rwy'n siŵr y gallai cyd-Aelodau yma siarad am yr hyn a wnaed yn eu hawdurdodau lleol eu hunain.
Mae'r gwasanaethau a ddarperir gan y 22 awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru yn darparu'r gwasanaethau sylfaenol sydd eu hangen ar bobl. Nod y fformiwla ariannu, neu gyllid allanol cyfanredol, a elwid gynt yn grant cynnal ardrethi cyn i ardrethi busnes gael eu canoli, yw darparu adnoddau i gefnogi awdurdodau lleol yn ariannol uwchlaw incwm y dreth gyngor yn lleol. Mae'r setliad cyllid llywodraeth leol yn pennu faint o'r arian a ddarperir i Gymru a roddir i bob awdurdod lleol. Mae'r cyllid hwn yn cynnwys y grant cynnal refeniw ac ardrethi annomestig, ac fe'i dosberthir ar sail fformiwla sy'n seiliedig ar anghenion. Rwy'n un o'r bobl sy'n credu y dylid dychwelyd ardrethi annomestig cenedlaethol i awdurdodau lleol. Rydym yn sôn yn aml am ddatganoli; mae datganoli'n golygu bod yn rhaid i rai pethau fynd i lawr o'r fan hon i awdurdodau lleol a lleoedd eraill. Ni ddylai datganoli ddod i ben yng Nghaerdydd a'r Senedd.
Gall awdurdodau lleol godi arian eu hunain yn lleol—nid y dreth gyngor yn unig, ond, yn dibynnu ar ble'r ydych chi, pethau fel parcio ceir, ffioedd a thaliadau. Ond os edrychwch arno, mae dosbarthiad eiddo ym mhob band yn amrywio'n fawr. Mae nifer yr eiddo ym mhob band treth gyngor yn amrywio. Mae gan rai, fel Blaenau Gwent, dros hanner eu heiddo ym mand A, ac ychydig iawn o eiddo sydd yn y ddau fand uchaf. Mewn cymhariaeth, dim ond ychydig dros 1 y cant o'i heiddo sydd gan sir Fynwy ym mand A ac mae 6 y cant o'i heiddo yn y ddau fand uchaf. Mae gan sir Fynwy, gyda mwy o eiddo uchel ei werth, fwy o allu i godi arian drwy drethiant lleol.
I ddychwelyd at yr hyn yw cyllid Llywodraeth Cymru i fod, mae'n golygu, os ydym yn bwriadu bod yn deg, y dylai cynghorau fel Mynwy gael llai y pen na chynghorau fel Blaenau Gwent gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Yr hyn sydd ei angen arnom yw dau beth: dychwelyd ardrethi busnes i gynghorau lleol, rhywbeth a fyddai'n cael effaith enfawr, a system decach o dreth gyngor gyda bandiau ychwanegol neu, yn well na hynny, treth gyngor yn seiliedig ar werth absoliwt yr eiddo. Gallwch fynd ag eiddo ychydig bach dros fand, ac yn sydyn iawn, mae pobl yn talu llawer mwy. Ond fe wyddom hefyd, os ydych ym mand A, eich bod yn talu tua hanner—dwy ran o dair, mae'n ddrwg gennyf—o fand D, ond os ydych ym mand G neu H, rydych yn talu tua dwywaith cymaint? Felly, nid yw'n seiliedig ar werth yr eiddo, fel y cyfryw, ac mae'n gwahaniaethu yn erbyn pobl ag eiddo gwerth is.
Mae'r dreth gyngor yn atchweliadol, ond nid oes rhaid iddi fod. Gall fod yn seiliedig ar werth absoliwt eiddo, ac mae gennym sefyllfa hefyd—rhywbeth y mae angen inni feddwl amdano—sef sut y gallwn sicrhau bod pawb yn cael yr un lefel o wasanaeth? Nawr, dywedwyd bod gan Flaenau Gwent lawer mwy o eiddo band D ar gyfer y dreth gyngor, ac mae gan sir Fynwy lawer llai, ond mae hynny oherwydd y dosbarthiad. Os ydych chi'n byw mewn tŷ pâr tair ystafell wely ym Mlaenau Gwent, rydych chi'n lwcus i fod ym mand A. Os ydych chi'n byw mewn tŷ pâr tair ystafell wely yn rhywle fel Cas-gwent, mae'n debyg eich bod ym mand D. Felly, mae'r gwahaniaeth hwnnw yno hefyd. Ond credaf fod angen inni sicrhau bod y dreth gyngor yn deg, mae angen ei newid, ac mae angen sicrhau bod pob awdurdod lleol yn cael yr hyn y mae'n ei haeddu.
Firstly, can I declare my interest as a councillor of Monmouthshire County Council, certainly for the time being? And, Mike, can I thank you for your words, but also I'd like to recognise your experience within local government, being a past leader of Swansea. And I thank you for your deep understanding and for speaking up for local government so often as you do, and have done for many years.
Local authorities are at the heart of our communities, helping families and supporting families, and delivering that vibrant public service we all know, but the pandemic has just further emphasised and underlined just how important they are. And for all they've done and continue to do, we thank them sincerely. But if we value them—we really value them—we need to fund them adequately, but more so, in this debate, fairly. And I know from my own experience as a councillor leader of several years that, for many councils, this hasn't been the case. In part, this is due to the funding formula, and Sam pointed out very clearly some of the shortcomings in it.
Now, the current formula was drawn up—and Mike will know better than me—probably 25 years ago following the move to 22 unitary authorities prior to devolution, and it wasn't a sophisticated process at that time, as we understand. Indeed, there have always been many light-hearted references that it was drawn together on the back of a fag packet to deal with the situation at that time. Clearly, I doubt that was the case, but what we do know is that now it is not fit for purpose. Whilst the formula is calculated on a needs basis and it includes things like population, level of deprivation, the number of school pupils and the length of road networks, plus a lot of 20-year-old other statistics that don't really mean too much any more, I would argue that there isn't enough—or there certainly isn't enough now—recognition of rurality and sparsity, and the unit cost of providing services in a large rural authority compared to that of an urban one.
For example, the unit cost of running a refuse service or a social care service in Powys has to be an awful lot more than it would be, say, in Torfaen. The anomalies within the formula have led to an inequitable distribution of funding, resulting in a winner-and-loser scenario. To reiterate the point that there is a vast difference between the highest and the lowest funded councils—Mike has already pointed this out and we know the rationale for it—in Monmouthshire, per capita, about £1,176 per person is going to be allocated next time, and it's about £1,881 in Blaenau Gwent. And we know these differences, as Mike has pointed out, are driven by the house banding levels in each authority, requiring councils like Monmouthshire to go and get 40 per cent of its funding from its council tax payers, and probably less than half of that in Blaenau Gwent. In fact, if we were funded, Monmouthshire, at the level of Blaenau Gwent, we'd have £40 million extra. Well, we know that's not going to happen because of that vast difference in banding. But there has to be something wrong with a formula that warrants such a massive change.
Such disparities in funding are also having an impact on the level of reserves held by some councils, where, again, there is a startling gap between winners and losers, with the gaps widening. For example, Conwy was struggling to retain total usuable reserves of around £14 million at the start of 2020, down by over £4 million on the previous year. Contrast this with Caerphilly, with a reserve of £140 million at the start of 2020—a £21 million increase for that same period. Yes, these are different-sized councils, but, clearly, there is something wrong with a formula that sees reserves diminishing in some authorities while increasing significantly in others.
So, acting Llywydd, I must be clear: I'm not arguing here about the quantum. I have seen the amendment, and it is talking about the quantum—'We are giving you more.' Yes, we know that you're giving us more, but this is not about the quantum. It doesn't matter if it was less money. The formula will act in the same way. So, I'm not arguing about the quantum. I'm arguing about how the cake is carved up and shared out.
Now, the stock answer from Ministers—and I suspect that we'll hear it again after—on reviewing the formula, is that they are happy to undertake a review if local leaders ask for it. Now, a quick look across funding levels and reserves in different councils, as well as understanding where the political influence lies—. It's easy to reach the conclusion that it's unlikely that those key leaders would ask for a review. The old adage of turkeys voting for Christmas comes to mind. But the fact is that change is needed. For some rural and north Wales councils, funding pressures, despite the positive settlement this year, are simply becoming unsustainable, and usuable reserves are falling to very low levels because of these pressures.
Acting Llywydd, when discussing council funding, it's also important to look at the role of council tax. The Welsh Government, of course, wants to consult on a review of council tax, as it's seen as regressive and out of date. This is a view generally supported by most of us. But I would argue that, as the funding formula is driven from the council tax base generated from each council, then the two—council tax and the funding formula—
Yn gyntaf, a gaf fi ddatgan diddordeb fel cynghorydd yng Nghyngor Sir Fynwy, am y tro, yn sicr? A Mike, a gaf fi ddiolch ichi am eich geiriau, ond hefyd hoffwn gydnabod eich profiad mewn llywodraeth leol, wrth eich bod yn gyn-arweinydd Abertawe. A diolch i chi am eich dealltwriaeth ddofn ac am siarad dros lywodraeth leol mor aml ag y gwnewch, ac y gwnaethoch ers blynyddoedd lawer.
Mae awdurdodau lleol yn rhan ganolog o'n cymunedau, yn helpu teuluoedd a chefnogi teuluoedd, ac yn darparu'r gwasanaeth cyhoeddus bywiog yr ydym i gyd yn gwybod amdano, ond mae'r pandemig newydd bwysleisio a thanlinellu pa mor bwysig ydynt. Ac am y cyfan y maent wedi'i wneud ac yn parhau i'w wneud, rydym yn diolch yn ddiffuant iddynt. Ond os ydym yn eu gwerthfawrogi—yn eu gwerthfawrogi go iawn—mae angen inni eu hariannu'n ddigonol, ond yn fwy felly, yn y ddadl hon, yn deg. A gwn o fy mhrofiad fy hun fel arweinydd cyngor ers sawl blwyddyn nad yw hyn wedi bod yn wir i lawer o gynghorau. Yn rhannol, deillia hyn o'r fformiwla ariannu, a nododd Sam yn glir iawn rai o'r diffygion sy'n perthyn iddi.
Nawr, lluniwyd y fformiwla bresennol—a bydd Mike yn gwybod yn well na mi—25 mlynedd yn ôl, mae'n debyg, ar ôl y newid i 22 awdurdod unedol cyn datganoli, ac nid oedd yn broses soffistigedig bryd hynny, yn ôl yr hyn a ddeallwn. Yn wir, cafwyd llawer o gyfeiriadau ysgafn ei fod wedi'i roi at ei gilydd ar gefn pecyn sigaréts i ymdrin â'r sefyllfa ar y pryd. Yn amlwg, rwy'n amau mai felly y digwyddodd, ond fe wyddom nad yw bellach yn addas i'r diben. Tra bod y fformiwla'n cael ei chyfrifo ar sail anghenion a'i bod yn cynnwys pethau fel poblogaeth, lefel amddifadedd, nifer y disgyblion ysgol a hyd rhwydweithiau ffyrdd, ynghyd â llawer o ystadegau eraill 20 oed nad ydynt yn golygu rhyw lawer iawn bellach mewn gwirionedd, byddwn yn dadlau nad oes digon—neu'n sicr nid oes digon yn awr—o gydnabyddiaeth i natur wledig ardaloedd a theneurwydd poblogaeth, a chost uned darparu gwasanaethau mewn awdurdod gwledig mawr o'i gymharu ag un trefol.
Er enghraifft, rhaid bod cost uned rhedeg gwasanaeth sbwriel neu wasanaeth gofal cymdeithasol ym Mhowys yn llawer mwy nag y byddai, dyweder, yn Nhorfaen. Mae'r anghysondebau o fewn y fformiwla wedi arwain at ddosbarthu cyllid yn annheg, gan arwain at senario enillydd a chollwr. I ailadrodd y pwynt fod gwahaniaeth mawr rhwng y cynghorau sy'n cael y lefel uchaf a'r cynghorau sy'n cael y lefel isaf o gyllid—mae Mike eisoes wedi tynnu sylw at hyn a gwyddom y rhesymeg dros hynny—yn sir Fynwy, bydd tua £1,176 y pen yn cael ei ddyrannu y tro nesaf, a thua £1,881 ym Mlaenau Gwent. A gwyddom fod y gwahaniaethau hyn, fel y nododd Mike, yn cael eu gyrru gan lefelau bandio tai ym mhob awdurdod, sy'n ei gwneud yn ofynnol i gynghorau fel sir Fynwy ddod o hyd i 40 y cant o'i gyllid gan dalwyr y dreth gyngor, a llai na hanner hynny, mae'n debyg, ym Mlaenau Gwent. Yn wir, pe bai sir Fynwy yn cael ein hariannu ar lefel Blaenau Gwent, byddai gennym £40 miliwn yn ychwanegol. Wel, gwyddom nad yw hynny'n mynd i ddigwydd oherwydd y gwahaniaeth enfawr yn y bandio. Ond mae'n rhaid bod rhywbeth o'i le ar fformiwla sy'n cyfiawnhau newid mor enfawr.
Mae gwahaniaethau ariannu o'r fath hefyd yn cael effaith ar lefel y cronfeydd wrth gefn a ddelir gan rai cynghorau, lle y ceir bwlch syfrdanol unwaith eto rhwng yr enillwyr a'r collwyr, gyda'r bylchau'n lledu. Er enghraifft, roedd Conwy'n ei chael hi'n anodd cadw cyfanswm cronfeydd wrth gefn defnyddiadwy o tua £14 miliwn ar ddechrau 2020, i lawr dros £4 miliwn ers y flwyddyn flaenorol. Cymharwch hyn â Chaerffili, gyda chronfa wrth gefn o £140 miliwn ar ddechrau 2020—cynnydd o £21 miliwn ar gyfer yr un cyfnod. Maent yn gynghorau o wahanol faint, ydynt, ond yn amlwg, mae rhywbeth o'i le ar fformiwla sy'n gweld cronfeydd wrth gefn yn lleihau mewn rhai awdurdodau tra bônt yn cynyddu'n sylweddol mewn awdurdodau eraill.
Felly, Lywydd dros dro, rhaid imi fod yn glir: nid wyf yn dadlau yma ynglŷn â'r swm. Rwyf wedi gweld y gwelliant, ac mae'n sôn am y swm—'Rydym yn rhoi mwy ichi.' Fe wyddom eich bod yn rhoi mwy inni, ond nid yw hyn yn ymwneud â'r swm. Nid yw o bwys os oedd yn llai o arian. Bydd y fformiwla'n gweithredu yn yr un ffordd. Felly, nid wyf yn dadlau am y swm. Rwy'n dadlau ynglŷn â sut y caiff y gacen ei thorri a'i rhannu.
Nawr, yr ateb parod gan Weinidogion—ac rwy'n tybio y byddwn yn ei glywed eto wedyn—ar adolygu'r fformiwla, yw eu bod yn hapus i gynnal adolygiad os bydd arweinwyr lleol yn gofyn am hynny. Nawr, wrth edrych yn gyflym ar lefelau ariannu a chronfeydd wrth gefn mewn gwahanol gynghorau, yn ogystal â deall lle mae'r dylanwad gwleidyddol—. Mae'n hawdd dod i'r casgliad ei bod yn annhebygol y byddai'r arweinwyr allweddol hynny'n gofyn am adolygiad. Daw'r hen ddywediad am dwrci'n pleidleisio dros y Nadolig i'r meddwl. Ond y ffaith amdani yw bod angen newid. I rai cynghorau gwledig a chynghorau yng ngogledd Cymru, mae'r pwysau ariannol, er gwaethaf y setliad cadarnhaol eleni, yn mynd yn anghynaliadwy, ac mae cronfeydd wrth gefn defnyddiadwy yn disgyn i lefelau isel iawn oherwydd y pwysau.
Lywydd dros dro, wrth drafod ariannu cynghorau, mae hefyd yn bwysig edrych ar rôl y dreth gyngor. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru, wrth gwrs, am ymgynghori ar adolygiad o'r dreth gyngor, gan ei bod yn cael ei hystyried yn atchweliadol ac wedi dyddio. Dyma safbwynt a gefnogir yn gyffredinol gan y rhan fwyaf ohonom. Ond am fod y fformiwla ariannu'n cael ei gyrru o'r sylfaen dreth gyngor a gynhyrchir gan bob cyngor, byddwn yn dadlau bod y ddwy—y dreth gyngor a'r fformiwla ariannu—
You're out of time now. Can I ask you now to bring it to a close?
Mae eich amser ar ben yn awr. A gaf fi ofyn i chi ddirwyn i ben yn awr?
Oh, sorry. I've only got a couple of sentences left.
They are fundamentally, intrinsically, linked. So, local government—it is fundamentally important that it has to have a sustainable future. The Welsh Government urgently needs to commission an independent review of the formula. If it can't or won't agree to this, they should at least open a consultation on the funding formula, in the same way they're reviewing council tax. Thank you.
O, mae'n ddrwg gennyf. Dim ond brawddeg neu ddwy sydd gennyf ar ôl.
Maent wedi'u cysylltu'n sylfaenol, yn gynhenid. Felly, llywodraeth leol—mae'n hanfodol bwysig iddo gael dyfodol cynaliadwy. Mae angen i Lywodraeth Cymru gomisiynu adolygiad annibynnol o'r fformiwla ar frys. Os nad yw'n gallu, neu os nad yw'n cytuno i wneud hynny, dylent o leiaf agor ymgynghoriad ar y fformiwla ariannu, yn yr un modd ag y maent yn adolygu'r dreth gyngor. Diolch.
Just to remember that those people that go over are taking time from the others who want to come in. I want to now call Carolyn Thomas.
Cofiwch fod y bobl sy'n mynd dros yr amser yn mynd ag amser oddi wrth y lleill sydd am gyfrannu. Galwaf ar Carolyn Thomas yn awr.
Diolch, acting Presiding Officer. I must declare that I am a Flintshire county councillor. As such, I know that local authorities and their staff across Wales have such an important role, working with Welsh Government to deliver front-line services, aspiring for safe, clean and connected communities.
Welsh local authorities must be adequately funded to enable them to deliver the high-quality public services to which they aspire. Having been a county and community councillor for the last 14 years, I have lived through painful years of austerity, a policy introduced by George Osborne of the Tory Government, cutting important public services, including councils' public and health budgets in real terms, while protecting neoliberalism and growing privatisation.
As councillors, we had to deal with year upon year of painful cuts—restructuring, reorganising and downsizing until councils were cut to the bone. Flintshire went down from six depots to one, and I remember Philip Hammond, at that time taking over from George Osborne, saying that we just had to tighten our belts a little further. I remember shouting at the tv, because there was nowhere else to cut.
We had to look at trying to raise income, with difficult decisions such as charging for garden waste collections, increasing car parking charges and asking departments to shave off another 30 per cent, as vacant positions were taken as cost savings. You can see the results now when looking at the state of the highways right across the UK; councils not being able to react quickly to complaints; taking longer with planning applications; blocked gullies and flooding; street lights taking that little bit longer to repair; and now, not being able to recruit for essential roles.
I could also see, as part of that austerity agenda, how the cuts to social security, under the introduction of universal credit, were impacting on people. Councils were trying to step in again and again to help the vulnerable, just as the Welsh Government are doing. As publicly funded advice services were reduced or cut, even charities have to be core funded.
I wanted to say that because that is the starting point that they are at now. And it's often raised that the funding formula for local authorities needs addressing. I did it here in the Chamber just two weeks ago, and I am aware that for the last few years the debate has gone round in circles, with council leaders writing to Welsh Government, Welsh Government then saying that the WLGA need to agree it as a collective, and then they have all different views. As you say, it depends who has the slice of the cake.
Our public services are one of the biggest employers in Wales, and in Flintshire, despite the reduction in workforce, the council still employs 5,500 people. That's local people—teachers, social care workers, cleaners, teaching assistants, waste operatives. And in many areas, such as Anglesey, the council is the biggest employer. They not only provide important services; they also employ local people that then spend their money in the local economy and send their children to local schools.
This year was a good settlement for councils in Wales from Welsh Government, at an average of 9.4 per cent compared to English councils' settlement of 6.9 per cent, but the variance per capita and per council can be hugely significant, with the gap between the highest and lowest paid council widening year upon year. And we heard this evidence at the Local Government and Housing Committee. The accumulative impact can mean the baseline, for some, remains low. The difference between neighbouring authorities can be £650 per resident and £50 million or more per annum. So, for example, a £20 million highways maintenance grant through the formula can equate to £1.2 million for one authority, and £850,000 for another. And if this is the same, year upon year, one continues to do well while the other struggles. It does make a huge difference.
I think now is the time to review it. As I am aware, some councils have large reserves and are able to set low council tax, and have retained resources and expertise to draw down grant funding, such as active travel funding. You know, you've got technical officers—some authorities don't have them any more. And it's really hard to buy in those services. You can buy them in, but they haven't got the local knowledge either to deal with local issues, so it's a real problem. And this does impact in my area of north Wales, where councils are struggling as a whole.
Two weeks ago, when I raised addressing the funding formula in the Chamber, I asked the Minister if the distribution committee that sits below the finance committee could investigate the funding formula or look at having a funding floor. I just think that would really help as well, because we've got to that baseline now for some authorities that are struggling so much. And the Minister responded to say that she would take this to be looked at by the finance committee, which I was satisfied with. So, there's the finance committee with a distribution committee that sits underneath it, and—. I'm happy with that, and I believe there are some leaders that sit on that as well.
I've also asked for a paper to come to the Local Government and Housing Committee. I believe it needs to be looked at and analysed to see if it's still fit for purpose. If it's found to be fair and up to date, according to the formula, that's fine, but I just think it needs to be reviewed. Diolch.
Diolch, Lywydd dros dro. Rhaid imi ddatgan fy mod yn gynghorydd sir yn sir y Fflint. Felly, gwn fod gan awdurdodau lleol a'u staff ledled Cymru rôl hynod bwysig, yn gweithio gyda Llywodraeth Cymru i ddarparu gwasanaethau rheng flaen, gan anelu at sicrhau cymunedau diogel, glân a chysylltiedig.
Rhaid i awdurdodau lleol Cymru gael eu hariannu'n ddigonol i'w galluogi i ddarparu'r gwasanaethau cyhoeddus o ansawdd uchel y maent yn dyheu i'w cael. Ar ôl bod yn gynghorydd sir a chymuned am y 14 mlynedd diwethaf, rwyf wedi byw drwy flynyddoedd poenus o gyni, polisi a gyflwynwyd gan George Osborne o'r Llywodraeth Dorïaidd, torri gwasanaethau cyhoeddus pwysig, gan gynnwys cyllidebau cyhoeddus ac iechyd cynghorau mewn termau real, gan ddiogelu neoryddfrydiaeth a phreifateiddio cynyddol.
Fel cynghorwyr, bu'n rhaid inni ymdrin â thoriadau poenus o flwyddyn i flwyddyn—ailstrwythuro, ad-drefnu a lleihau nes i gyllid cynghorau gael ei dorri i'r asgwrn. Aeth sir y Fflint i lawr o chwe depo i un, a chofiaf Philip Hammond, a oedd ar y pryd yn cymryd yr awenau gan George Osborne, yn dweud bod yn rhaid inni dynhau ein gwregysau ychydig rhagor. Rwy'n cofio gweiddi ar y teledu, oherwydd nid oedd unman arall i dorri.
Bu'n rhaid inni edrych ar geisio codi incwm, gyda phenderfyniadau anodd megis codi tâl am gasgliadau gwastraff gardd, cynyddu taliadau parcio ceir a gofyn i adrannau dorri 30 y cant arall, wrth i swyddi gwag gael eu cymryd fel arbedion cost. Gallwch weld y canlyniadau yn awr wrth edrych ar gyflwr y priffyrdd ledled y DU, cynghorau nad ydynt yn gallu ymateb yn gyflym i gwynion, yn cymryd mwy o amser gyda cheisiadau cynllunio, gylïau wedi blocio a llifogydd, goleuadau stryd yn cymryd ychydig yn hwy i'w hatgyweirio, ac yn awr, methu recriwtio i swyddi hanfodol.
Gallwn weld hefyd, yn rhan o'r agenda cyni, sut yr oedd y toriadau i nawdd cymdeithasol, yn sgil cyflwyno credyd cynhwysol, yn effeithio ar bobl. Roedd cynghorau'n ceisio camu i mewn dro ar ôl tro i helpu'r rhai agored i niwed, yn union fel y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud. Wrth i wasanaethau cynghori a ariennir yn gyhoeddus gael eu lleihau neu eu torri, mae'n rhaid i hyd yn oed elusennau gael cyllid craidd.
Roeddwn am ddweud hynny oherwydd dyna'r man cychwyn y maent arno ar hyn o bryd. Ac mae'n aml yn codi bod angen mynd i'r afael â'r fformiwla ariannu ar gyfer awdurdodau lleol. Fe'i gwneuthum yma yn y Siambr bythefnos yn ôl, ac rwy'n ymwybodol fod y ddadl wedi troi mewn cylchoedd dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf, gydag arweinwyr cynghorau yn ysgrifennu at Lywodraeth Cymru, a Llywodraeth Cymru yn dweud wedyn fod angen i Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru gytuno ar hynny ar y cyd, ac mae ganddynt oll safbwyntiau gwahanol. Fel y dywedwch, mae'n dibynnu pwy sydd â'r darn o'r gacen.
Ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yw un o'r cyflogwyr mwyaf yng Nghymru, ac yn sir y Fflint, er gwaethaf y lleihad yn y gweithlu, mae'r cyngor yn dal i gyflogi 5,500 o bobl. Pobl leol yw'r rheini—athrawon, gweithwyr gofal cymdeithasol, glanhäwyr, cynorthwywyr addysgu, gweithwyr gwastraff. Ac mewn sawl ardal, fel Ynys Môn, y cyngor yw'r cyflogwr mwyaf. Nid yn unig eu bod yn darparu gwasanaethau pwysig, maent hefyd yn cyflogi pobl leol sydd wedyn yn gwario eu harian yn yr economi leol ac yn anfon eu plant i ysgolion lleol.
Roedd eleni'n setliad da i gynghorau yng Nghymru gan Lywodraeth Cymru, ar gyfartaledd o 9.4 y cant o'i gymharu â setliad cynghorau Lloegr o 6.9 y cant, ond gall yr amrywiant y pen a fesul cyngor fod yn sylweddol iawn, gyda'r bwlch rhwng y cyngor sy'n cael fwyaf o arian a'r cyngor sy'n cael leiaf yn lledu o flwyddyn i flwyddyn. A chlywsom y dystiolaeth hon yn y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai. Gall yr effaith gronnol olygu bod y llinell sylfaen, i rai, yn parhau'n isel. Gall y gwahaniaeth rhwng awdurdodau cyfagos fod yn £650 y preswylydd a £50 miliwn neu fwy y flwyddyn. Felly, er enghraifft, gall grant cynnal a chadw priffyrdd o £20 miliwn drwy'r fformiwla olygu £1.2 miliwn i un awdurdod, a £850,000 i un arall. Ac os yw hyn yr un fath, flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn, mae un yn parhau i wneud yn dda tra bo'r llall yn cael trafferth. Mae'n gwneud gwahaniaeth enfawr.
Credaf mai dyma'r amser i'w adolygu. Fel y gwn i, mae gan rai cynghorau gronfeydd wrth gefn mawr ac maent yn gallu gosod treth gyngor isel, ac wedi cadw adnoddau ac arbenigedd i dynnu arian grant i lawr, megis cyllid teithio llesol. Wyddoch chi, mae gennych chi swyddogion technegol—nid oes gan rai awdurdodau swyddogion technegol mwyach. Ac mae'n anodd iawn prynu'r gwasanaethau hynny o'r tu allan. Fe allwch eu prynu o'r tu allan, ond nid oes ganddynt yr wybodaeth leol i ymdrin â materion lleol, felly mae'n broblem wirioneddol. Ac mae hyn yn effeithio ar fy ardal i yng ngogledd Cymru, lle mae cynghorau'n ei chael hi'n anodd yn gyffredinol.
Bythefnos yn ôl, pan godais yr angen fynd i'r afael â'r fformiwla ariannu yn y Siambr, gofynnais i'r Gweinidog a allai'r pwyllgor dosbarthu sydd islaw'r pwyllgor cyllid ymchwilio i'r fformiwla ariannu neu edrych ar gael cyllid gwaelodol. Credaf y byddai hynny'n help mawr hefyd, oherwydd rydym wedi cyrraedd y llinell sylfaen honno yn awr i rai awdurdodau sy'n ei chael hi mor anodd. Ac ymatebodd y Gweinidog i ddweud y byddai'n gofyn i'r pwyllgor cyllid ystyried hyn, ac roeddwn yn fodlon ar hynny. Felly, mae'r pwyllgor dosbarthu yn dod o dan y pwyllgor cyllid, ac—. Rwy'n hapus ynglŷn â hynny, a chredaf fod rhai arweinwyr yn aelodau o'r pwyllgor hwnnw hefyd.
Rwyf hefyd wedi gofyn am bapur i ddod i'r Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai. Credaf fod angen edrych arno a'i ddadansoddi i weld a yw'n dal yn addas i'r diben. Os canfyddir ei fod yn deg ac yn gyfredol, yn ôl y fformiwla, mae hynny'n iawn, ond rwy'n credu bod angen ei adolygu. Diolch.
I'd like to declare an interest, as a current serving member of Denbighshire County Council for the fantastic Prestatyn South West ward. So, you speak to any council in north Wales, even Labour-run Flintshire County Council, which Carolyn Thomas is a member of, and they will tell you the same thing—that they get short-changed by Cardiff Bay. Historically, we in the north have lost out because the funding formula prioritises the south Wales Valleys.
While it's very welcome that Denbighshire is to get one of the biggest increases this year, it does nothing to address the historic underfunding and gives no certainties for future years. This is an annual lottery and it has to end, and it's high time we had a funding formula that was fair to every part of Wales. Sadly, my constituency is home to two of the poorest areas in the country, and has one of the highest percentages of retirees. Around a quarter of the population of Denbighshire is over the age of 65, yet the current funding formula does not reflect the additional need for services to cater to this ageing population. Councils get an extra £1,500 for every person over the age of 85, but a pittance for anyone between the ages of 65 and 84. How are councils supposed to provide adequate social care when they continue to be short-changed? For places like Denbighshire, the outlook is not great.
Demographic changes over the coming decades will place a further strain on already struggling finances. Key services have been cut to the bone or axed altogether in recent years due to poor settlements from the Welsh Government, forcing councils to put up council tax— council tax bills that the public can't afford. The pandemic has exacerbated the situation, with inflation rocketing around the globe, pushing up food and fuel prices, putting an extra strain on household budgets. Yet my constituents will once again be asked to foot the shortfall in local government funding. Council tax bills will soar once again this year as hard-pressed councils seek to address huge gaps in their funding, struggling to keep services running, and this shortsighted approach by the Welsh Government can and will have devastating consequences. We are already seeing the strain a lack of social care is placing on our NHS. How many people will die because our local authorities can't afford to provide sufficient care packages? And that's the reality of this situation. The societal cost of poor local government funding—
Hoffwn ddatgan buddiant, fel aelod presennol o Gyngor Sir Ddinbych dros ward wych De Orllewin Prestatyn. Felly, siaradwch ag unrhyw gyngor yng ngogledd Cymru, hyd yn oed Cyngor Sir y Fflint sy'n cael ei redeg gan Lafur, ac y mae Carolyn Thomas yn aelod ohono, a byddant yn dweud yr un peth wrthych—eu bod yn cael cam gan Fae Caerdydd. Yn hanesyddol, rydym ni yn y gogledd ar ein colled oherwydd bod y fformiwla ariannu yn blaenoriaethu Cymoedd de Cymru.
Er bod croeso mawr i'r ffaith bod sir Ddinbych i gael un o'r setliadau gyda'r cynnydd mwyaf eleni, nid yw'n gwneud dim i fynd i'r afael â'r tanariannu hanesyddol nac yn rhoi unrhyw sicrwydd ar gyfer y blynyddoedd i ddod. Mae hon yn loteri flynyddol ac mae'n rhaid iddi ddod i ben, ac mae'n hen bryd inni gael fformiwla ariannu sy'n deg i bob rhan o Gymru. Yn anffodus, mae fy etholaeth yn gartref i ddwy o'r ardaloedd tlotaf yn y wlad, ac mae ganddi un o'r canrannau uchaf o bobl wedi ymddeol. Mae tua chwarter poblogaeth sir Ddinbych dros 65 oed, ac eto nid yw'r fformiwla ariannu bresennol yn adlewyrchu'r angen ychwanegol am wasanaethau i ddarparu ar gyfer y boblogaeth hon sy'n heneiddio. Mae cynghorau'n cael £1,500 ychwanegol am bob person dros 85 oed, ond fawr ddim am unrhyw un rhwng 65 ac 84 oed. Sut y mae cynghorau i fod i ddarparu gofal cymdeithasol digonol pan fyddant yn parhau i fod ar eu colled? I leoedd fel sir Ddinbych, nid yw'r rhagolygon yn wych.
Bydd newidiadau demograffig dros y degawdau nesaf yn rhoi straen pellach ar gyllid sydd eisoes mewn trafferthion. Mae gwasanaethau allweddol wedi'u torri i'r asgwrn neu wedi'u diddymu'n gyfan gwbl yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf oherwydd setliadau gwael gan Lywodraeth Cymru, gan orfodi cynghorau i godi'r dreth gyngor—biliau treth gyngor na all y cyhoedd eu fforddio. Mae'r pandemig wedi gwaethygu'r sefyllfa, gyda chwyddiant yn codi ym mhob cwr o'r byd, gan godi prisiau bwyd a thanwydd, a rhoi straen ychwanegol ar gyllidebau cartrefi. Ac unwaith eto gofynnir i fy etholwyr dalu'r diffyg yng nghyllid llywodraeth leol. Bydd biliau'r dreth gyngor yn codi i'r entrychion unwaith eto eleni wrth i gynghorau sydd dan bwysau geisio mynd i'r afael â bylchau enfawr yn eu cyllid, gan ei chael hi'n anodd cadw gwasanaethau i redeg, a bydd yr ymagwedd gibddall hon gan Lywodraeth Cymru yn arwain at ganlyniadau dinistriol. Rydym eisoes yn gweld y straen y mae diffyg gofal cymdeithasol yn ei roi ar ein GIG. Faint o bobl a fydd yn marw am na all ein hawdurdodau lleol fforddio darparu digon o becynnau gofal? A dyna realiti'r sefyllfa hon. Cost gymdeithasol ariannu llywodraeth leol yn wael—
Will you take an intervention?
A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?
Yes, indeed.
Gwnaf yn wir.
They've got to provide care; it's a statutory requirement. If they don't do that, they're breaking the law—the Gloucester judgment, as Sam will tell you.
Mae'n rhaid iddynt ddarparu gofal; mae'n ofyniad statudol. Os na wnânt hynny, maent yn torri'r gyfraith—dyfarniad Gloucester, fel y bydd Sam yn dweud wrthych.
Thanks for the intervention there, Mike. So, how many people are now experiencing loneliness and isolation because the day centre is closed, or because the local library has just shut up shop? What will happen to those communities whose community centres have closed and how will digital inclusion suffer as more and more services are forced online because of the cost-saving measures? Our councils provide the majority of services that the public rely on, yet they are faced with the tough choices to cut back or pass the funding burden on to a public already paying too much. We need fairer funding for local government, funding that is fair to taxpayers but at the same time allows for high-quality public services, and I urge you to support our motion tonight. Thank you.
Diolch am yr ymyriad, Mike. Felly, faint o bobl sydd bellach yn teimlo'n unig ac wedi eu hynysu oherwydd bod y ganolfan ddydd ar gau, neu am fod y llyfrgell leol newydd gau ei drws? Beth fydd yn digwydd i'r cymunedau y mae eu canolfannau cymunedol wedi cau a sut y bydd cynhwysiant digidol yn dioddef wrth i fwy a mwy o wasanaethau gael eu gorfodi ar-lein oherwydd mesurau arbed costau? Ein cynghorau sy'n darparu'r rhan fwyaf o'r gwasanaethau y mae'r cyhoedd yn dibynnu arnynt, ac eto hwy sy'n wynebu'r dewisiadau anodd i dorri'n ôl neu drosglwyddo'r baich ariannu i'r cyhoedd sydd eisoes yn talu gormod. Mae arnom angen cyllid tecach i lywodraeth leol, cyllid sy'n deg i drethdalwyr ond ar yr un pryd yn caniatáu ar gyfer gwasanaethau cyhoeddus o ansawdd uchel, ac rwy'n eich annog i gefnogi ein cynnig heno. Diolch.
A gaf i ddiolch i bawb sydd wedi cyfrannu i'r ddadl hyd yma. Dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi yn ddadl werthfawr, a dwi'n siŵr bod Mike yn teimlo bod Nadolig wedi dod yn gynnar. Mae e'n cael dadl ar gynrychiolaeth gyfrannol, dadl ar ariannu awdurdodau lleol; dim ond dadl ar glwb pêl-droed Abertawe sydd ei heisiau nawr, ac mi fyddwch chi'n byw'r freuddwyd. [Chwerthin.]
Ond, ar nodyn mwy difrifol, dwi eisiau ategu'r diolch mae pawb wedi ei roi i weithwyr cyngor a chynghorwyr eu hunain, wrth gwrs, am fynd y filltir ychwanegol dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf yma, ac a fydd yn parhau i wneud, wrth gwrs, fel rŷn ni'n gwybod, wrth inni geisio adfer gwasanaethau yn y cyfnod nesaf yma.
Mae Llywodraeth Cymru, wrth gwrs, yn edrych ar sut mae pres cynghorau yn cael ei gasglu drwy fod yn edrych ar y dreth gyngor, felly dwi yn meddwl ei bod hi yr un mor ddilys inni fod yn gofyn i edrych ar sut mae pres cynghorau yn cael ei rannu. Flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn, mae consern yn cael ei godi; mae rhai yn colli allan, rhai yn teimlo eu bod nhw'n cael eu tan-ariannu, ac rŷch chi'n edrych ar y ffigurau global a'r gynghrair ariannu, ac mae’r ffigwr y pen, wrth gwrs, yn dangos stori arall eto, onid yw hi, ynglŷn â pa mor drawiadol yw rhai o’r gwahaniaethau.
Ond dwi'n ddigon pragmataidd, dwi'n ddigon ymarferol, i ddeall y byddai unrhyw fformiwla yn cynhyrchu enillwyr a chollwyr. Fydd yna ddim un fformiwla yn plesio pawb. Ond dwi hefyd yn deall y ddadl, wrth gwrs, dim ots sut rŷch chi'n torri'r gacen, dyw'r gacen ddim yn ddigon mawr; fydd hi byth yn ddigon mawr, mae'n debyg. Ond gwneud yn siŵr ei bod hi'n cael ei thorri mor deg â sy'n bosib, dim ots beth yw ei maint hi, yw pwynt y ddadl yma, yntefe? Ac mae e yn deimlad cryf ymhlith y cynghorwyr a'r arweinyddion dwi wedi siarad â nhw fod y fformiwla wedi dyddio, a bod angen edrych eto. Ac efallai all pobl ddadlau bod y fformiwla yn dda, ond dyw hynny ddim i ddweud na all y fformiwla fod yn well.
Ac nid dim ond edrych ar y fformiwla chwaith ar ei phen ei hun, in isolation, os caf i ddweud; mae angen edrych ar y darlun ehangach o ariannu cynghorau, oherwydd y pwynt sy'n cael ei godi gyda fi gan gynghorwyr yw bod yna gyfrifoldebau newydd wedi cael eu cyfeirio at gynghorwyr sydd i fod i fod yn cost neutral, ond sydd ddim yn cost neutral mewn gwirionedd. Mae yna gostau ychwanegol yn disgyn arnyn nhw, a byddai hynny yn beth da i'w ystyried.
A beth am adroddiad Luke Sibieta ar wariant ysgolion, hefyd, a gomisiynwyd gan y Llywodraeth yn 2020? Mae hwnnw'n dangos bod gwahaniaethau sylweddol mewn gwariant fesul dysgwr ar draws ysgolion yng Nghymru, a hynny'n rhannol yn adlewyrchu’r gwahanol fformiwlâu ariannu sy'n cael eu defnyddio, fformiwlâu sy'n gallu bod yn gymhleth iawn, yn cynnwys nifer helaeth o ffactorau gwahanol, sy’n creu cymhlethdod, wrth gwrs. Ac mae'r awgrym yn yr adroddiad yna fod angen rhywbeth mwy cyson ar draws y gwahanol ardaloedd, rhywbeth fyddai hefyd yn cynyddu tryloywder ac yn lleihau gwahaniaethau ariannu ar draws yr ysgolion.
Felly, mi fyddai hi'n amserol, dwi'n meddwl, i edrych yn ehangach, ac, fel glywon ni ar gychwyn y ddadl yma, i ddefnyddio data mwy cyfoes. Rŷn ni ar fin gweld data'r cyfrifiad diweddaraf. Beth am ystyried efallai dod i bwynt lle mae yna ryw adolygiad yn digwydd bob 10 mlynedd? Bob tro mae yna ddata cyfrifiad newydd yn dod, bod yna broses yn cael ei rhedeg fel ein bod ni'n gallu bod yn hyderus dyw e ddim wedi dyddio a'i fod e'n dal i fod yn addas i bwrpas.
Mae yna ddadl hefyd ynglŷn â lle llawr ariannu, bod yna gyllid gwaelodol. Dwi'n gwybod efallai fod hynny'n gallu bod yn ddadleuol, ond dyma neu dyna fyddai'r cyfle i wyntyllu hynny go iawn. Ac efallai fyddai modd dadlau bod angen rhoi hynny'n ei le tra bod adolygiad yn cael ei gyflawni er mwyn ceisio lleihau'r siom neu'r baich a fydd ar rai o'r cynghorau sydd ddim yn cael cymaint ag a fydden nhw yn ei obeithio.
O ran gwelliant y Llywodraeth, wrth gwrs, mae pawb yn cydnabod bod y cynnydd o 9.4 y cant yn y setliad cyfan yn well na'r disgwyl, ond eto y pwynt ynglŷn â nid maint y gacen efallai yw'r drafodaeth heddiw, ond sut mae'r gacen yn cael ei rhannu. Ac rŷn ni hefyd yn gwybod, wrth gwrs, tra ei fod e'n edrych yn dda ym mlwyddyn 1 yn y cylchdro ariannol, mae blwyddyn 2 a 3 yn mynd i fod yn heriol iawn. Ac, wrth gwrs, pan fo'r esgid honno yn gwasgu, yna dyna pryd fydd y dadlau mwyaf ffyrnig ynglŷn â'r fformiwla yn digwydd. Felly, mae angen inni fod ar y blaen i hynny yn ceisio gwneud yn siŵr bod beth sydd gyda ni yn addas.
Felly, i gloi, mae'r Ceidwadwyr yn iawn—ac, eto, dŷn ni ddim yn dweud hynny'n aml. Mae hwn yn fformiwla ariannu sydd wedi dyddio. Dyw e ddim yn addas i bwrpas. Mi grëwyd e ar fympwy ddegawdau yn ôl gyda dim bwriad iddo fe bara mor hir â hyn. Ond ŷch chi'n gwybod beth? Gallwn ni ddweud hwnna am fformiwla Barnett hefyd, a dwi'n siŵr mai dyna fydd y ddad byddwch chi'n dod ger ein bron yr wythnos nesaf.
May I thank everyone who's contributed to the debate so far? I think it's a valuable debate, and I'm sure Mike must feel it's Christmas come early. He has a debate on PR and the funding of local government; you’d only need a debate on Swansea City AFC, and you'd be living the dream. [Laughter.]
But, on a more serious note, I want to echo the thanks that we've all paid to council workers and councillors for going the extra mile over recent years, and they will continue to do so, of course, as we try and restore services.
The Welsh Government, of course, is looking at how council funding is collected by looking at council tax, so I do think that it's just as valid for us to be asking how that money is distributed too. Year on year, concerns are expressed, some lose out, some feel that they are underfunded, and you look at the global figures in the funding league, but the per capita figure, of course, tells another story altogether in terms of how striking some of those differences are.
But I am pragmatic enough and practical enough to understand that any formula would produce winners and losers. No formula would please everybody. But I also understand the argument that it doesn't matter how you cut the cake, the cake isn't large enough and it never will be, in all likelihood. But what we need to do is to ensure that it’s cut as fairly as possible, whatever its size, and that's the point of this debate. There is a strong feeling among the council leaders and councillors I've spoken to that the formula is dated and we do need to look at it again. Perhaps people could argue that the formula is good, but that's not to say that it can't be better.
And it's not just looking at the formula in isolation either; we need to look at the bigger picture of council funding, because a point that's raised with me by councillors is that there are new responsibilities conferred on councils that are supposed to be cost neutral, but aren't really cost neutral. There are additional costs falling on our councils, and those should be taken into account.
And what of the Luke Sibieta report on school funding, commissioned by the Government in 2020? That shows substantial differences in expenditure per learner across schools in Wales, and that partly reflects the different funding formulas used. Those formulas can be very complex, including a number of different factors, creating complexity. And the suggestion in the report there is that you need more consistency across different areas, something that would also enhance transparency and reduce funding disparities across schools.
So, it would be timely, I think, to look more broadly at these issues, and, as we heard at the beginning of this debate, to use more contemporary data. We're about to see the latest census data. Why not consider coming to a point where there is a review every 10 years, let's say? That, every time we have new census data, there should be a process of review so that we can be confident that it's not dated and that it is still fit for purpose.
There's also a debate to be had on the role of a funding floor. I know that can be contentious, but that would be the opportunity to have a real debate about that. And one could argue that that would need to be put in place whilst the review is being conducted in order to reduce the burden on some of the councils that don't receive as much as they were perhaps hoping.
In terms of the Government's amendment, well, everyone does recognise that the increase of 9.4 per cent in the settlement is better than expected, but the point that it's not the size of the cake, but how that cake is shared, is today's debate. And whilst we also know that it looks good for year 1 in the funding cycle, years 2 and 3 are going to be exceptionally challenging. And when the purse strings are pulled tight, then that's when the most fierce debate on the formula will take pace. So, we need to get ahead of that and seek to ensure that what we have is fit for purpose.
So, to conclude, the Conservatives are right—and, again, I don't say that too often. But this is a funding formula that is dated. It is not fit for purpose. It was created in an ad-hoc manner decades ago with no intention that it should last this long. We could also say that about the Barnett formula too, and I'm sure that will be the debate you bring forward next week.
It's very noisy over there. I now call on the final speaker, Janet Finch-Saunders.
Mae'n swnllyd iawn acw. Galwaf yn awr ar y siaradwr olaf, Janet Finch-Saunders.
Diolch, acting Llywydd. Between 2010-11 and 2019-20, Welsh Government revenue funding to local government fell by a shocking 17 per cent. Additionally, the Office for National Statistics has reported that between March 2010 and 2020 there was a 19 per cent decrease in staff for local government in Wales. These stark and shocking figures give us just a snapshot of the lack of support that our local authorities were receiving before the pandemic. They have been at the forefront of the COVID-19 response and shouldered a significant burden throughout the pandemic. Staff have been seconded to different departments and they helped to establish support networks and even, indeed, deliver food to vulnerable residents. This certainly stretched their already depleted resources and services past breaking point.
In freedom of information responses I've received from local authorities, I've actually been quite shocked to see, between 2018-19 and 2020-21, there's been around a £10 million or an 118 per cent increase in the spend on housing individuals in temporary accommodation. And speak to any local authority leader or cabinet member and they'll tell you that the homelessness budget is a real severe strain now, and it's something that is not dissipating. This increase is, without doubt, actually, if you look at this in a strategic way, partly down to the Welsh Government's continued failure to deliver on the number of new build houses our communities require. And it has been made clear to me by at least one member that the spend has rocketed even higher this financial year.
Sadly, this is not the only example of where councils have been left holding the can for Welsh Government's failings, forcing local authorities to make up budgetary shortfalls through other means. In October of last year, the BBC reported that Cardiff city council was due to see its public debt skyrocket by roughly 70 per cent, with the forecast of the council borrowing over £1.4 billion by 2023-24. This situation has made it clear that this Welsh Government is hiding away from taking all the necessary steps to fund and support local authorities. Rather, they are shifting this burden onto local authorities, forcing local councillors to cut vital public services, which detrimentally impacts our most vulnerable citizens, increasing council taxes, stifling local economic growth and adding additional financial pressure to residents who are already struggling to cope with the cost-of-living crisis in Wales. It is those regulatory departments who have seen depletions in their staff; our planning authorities now having backlogs of several planning applications. Llywydd—acting Llywydd—they should not have to be so overstretched. As announced in the recent UK budget, the UK Conservative Government has committed to increasing the Welsh Government budget by an additional £2.5 billion per year for the next three years on top of the annual baseline funding of £15.9 billion per year, yet, the Welsh Government, you do continually cry wolf all the time about lack of resources.
As has been said here today, the current funding formula is not fit for purpose. And I was shadow Minister for local government for seven years here, and in 2010 we were having the same arguments. And the Minister at that time, pointing a finger at me, was saying, 'But the leaders, that's what the leaders want.' Well, I'm telling you now, it definitely needs to be looked at, because standing up tonight and asking these very same questions, it's rather like déjà vu; you really do need to get a grip now and have a look at that funding formula. I once had a meeting with civil servants here, or Government officials here, and they said, 'Janet, we can tweak it, but it would be just impossible to review the funding formula.' But it doesn't sit right now, especially when you look at my own constituency of Aberconwy. I have people moving out of county into other areas where they've no family or friends network, because there are no social care packages available in Conwy. That's not the authority's fault; it is lack of funding.
It cannot be right that you are allowing some local authorities to hoard taxpayers' money, whilst my own Conwy County Borough Council is having to increase council tax by 3.9 per cent. Peter Fox admirably mentioned about the hundreds of thousands that some local authorities—predominantly Labour authorities—in south Wales, how they're allowed to hold on, year on year on year, to £120,000, £130,000, and £1.3 million in some instances. It cannot be right when Conwy's figure is—
Diolch, Lywydd dros dro. Rhwng 2010-11 a 2019-20, gostyngodd cyllid refeniw Llywodraeth Cymru i lywodraeth leol 17 y cant, sy'n ffigur syfrdanol. Yn ogystal, mae'r Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol wedi nodi bod gostyngiad o 19 y cant yn niferoedd staff llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru rhwng mis Mawrth 2010 a 2020. Mae'r ffigurau llwm a brawychus hyn yn rhoi cipolwg bach inni o'r diffyg cefnogaeth i awdurdodau lleol cyn y pandemig. Maent wedi bod ar flaen y gad yn ymateb i COVID-19 ac wedi ysgwyddo baich sylweddol drwy gydol y pandemig. Cafodd staff eu secondio i adrannau gwahanol ac fe wnaethant helpu i sefydlu rhwydweithiau cymorth a darparu bwyd i breswylwyr agored i niwed hyd yn oed. Yn sicr fe wnaeth hyn ymestyn hyd yr eithaf eu hadnoddau a'u gwasanaethau, a oedd eisoes wedi'u disbyddu.
Mewn ymatebion i geisiadau rhyddid gwybodaeth a gefais gan awdurdodau lleol, rwyf wedi cael cryn sioc o weld, rhwng 2018-19 a 2020-21, fod tua £10 miliwn neu gynnydd o 118 y cant yn y gwariant ar gartrefu unigolion mewn llety dros dro. A siaradwch ag unrhyw arweinydd awdurdod lleol neu aelod cabinet a byddant yn dweud wrthych fod y gyllideb digartrefedd yn straen difrifol iawn yn awr, ac mae'n rhywbeth nad yw'n llacio. Os edrychwch ar hyn mewn ffordd strategol, mae'r cynnydd hwn, heb os, yn deillio'n rhannol o fethiant parhaus Llywodraeth Cymru i adeiladu'r tai newydd sydd eu hangen ar ein cymunedau. Ac fe'i gwnaed yn glir i mi gan o leiaf un aelod fod y gwariant wedi cynyddu hyd yn oed yn fwy yn y flwyddyn ariannol hon.
Yn anffodus, nid dyma'r unig enghraifft o'r cynghorau'n cael eu gadael i ysgwyddo'r baich am fethiannau Llywodraeth Cymru, gan orfodi awdurdodau lleol i wneud iawn am ddiffygion cyllidebol drwy ddulliau eraill. Ym mis Hydref y llynedd, adroddodd y BBC fod dyled gyhoeddus cyngor dinas Caerdydd yn mynd i godi oddeutu 70 y cant, gyda'r rhagolwg y byddai'r cyngor yn benthyca dros £1.4 biliwn erbyn 2023-24. Mae'r sefyllfa hon wedi dangos yn glir fod Llywodraeth Cymru yn cilio rhag rhoi'r holl gamau angenrheidiol ar waith i ariannu a chefnogi awdurdodau lleol. Yn hytrach, maent yn trosglwyddo'r baich i awdurdodau lleol, gan orfodi cynghorwyr lleol i dorri gwasanaethau cyhoeddus hanfodol, sy'n cael effaith andwyol ar ein dinasyddion mwyaf agored i niwed, yn cynyddu trethi cyngor, yn mygu twf economaidd lleol ac yn ychwanegu pwysau ariannol ychwanegol ar drigolion sydd eisoes yn ei chael yn anodd ymdopi â'r argyfwng costau byw yng Nghymru. Yr adrannau rheoleiddio hynny sydd wedi gweld eu staff yn lleihau, a bellach mae gan ein hawdurdodau cynllunio ôl-groniadau o sawl cais cynllunio. Lywydd—Lywydd dros dro—ni ddylent orfod bod o dan y fath bwysau. Fel y cyhoeddwyd yng nghyllideb y DU yn ddiweddar, mae Llywodraeth Geidwadol y DU wedi ymrwymo i gynnydd o £2.5 biliwn ychwanegol y flwyddyn am y tair blynedd nesaf i gyllideb Llywodraeth Cymru ar ben y cyllid sylfaenol blynyddol o £15.9 biliwn y flwyddyn, ac eto, Lywodraeth Cymru, rydych yn cwyno drwy'r amser am ddiffyg adnoddau.
Fel y dywedwyd yma heddiw, nid yw'r fformiwla ariannu bresennol yn addas i'r diben. Ac roeddwn yn Weinidog yr wrthblaid dros lywodraeth leol am saith mlynedd yma, ac yn 2010 roeddem yn cael yr un dadleuon. Ac roedd y Gweinidog ar y pryd, gan bwyntio bys ataf i, yn dweud, 'Ond yr arweinwyr, dyna mae'r arweinwyr ei eisiau.' Wel, rwy'n dweud wrthych yn awr, mae gwir angen edrych arni, oherwydd wrth godi heno a gofyn yr un cwestiynau, mae'n debyg i déjà vu, ac mae gwir angen ichi fynd i'r afael â hyn yn awr a chael golwg ar y fformiwla ariannu. Cefais gyfarfod unwaith â gweision sifil yma, neu swyddogion y Llywodraeth yma, ac roeddent yn dweud, 'Janet, gallwn wneud newidiadau bach iddo, ond byddai'n amhosibl adolygu'r fformiwla ariannu.' Ond nid yw'n iawn yn awr, yn enwedig pan edrychwch ar fy etholaeth i yn Aberconwy. Mae gennyf bobl yn symud allan o'r sir i ardaloedd eraill lle nad oes ganddynt rwydwaith teulu na ffrindiau, am nad oes pecynnau gofal cymdeithasol ar gael yng Nghonwy. Nid bai'r awdurdod yw hynny, diffyg arian yw hynny.
Ni all fod yn iawn eich bod yn caniatáu i rai awdurdodau lleol gronni arian trethdalwyr, tra bod fy Nghyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Conwy fy hun yn gorfod cynyddu'r dreth gyngor 3.9 y cant. Soniodd Peter Fox yn rhagorol am y cannoedd o filoedd y mae rhai awdurdodau lleol—awdurdodau Llafur yn bennaf—yn ne Cymru, sut y caniateir iddynt ddal eu gafael, flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn, ar £120,000, £130,000, a £1.3 miliwn mewn rhai achosion. Ni all fod yn iawn pan fydd ffigur Conwy—
Can you bring it to a conclusion?
A wnewch chi dynnu tua'r terfyn?
Gosh, I will indeed [Laughter.] I will. Diolch, acting Llywydd. All I would say: come on, we've got a third of new Members in this Senedd now, we've got new talent, who've had experience on local authorities. If you wouldn't listen to me, listen to them. Thank you.
Ewcs, gwnaf yn wir [Chwerthin.] Fe wnaf. Diolch, Lywydd dros dro. Y cyfan y byddwn yn ei ddweud yw: dewch, mae gennym draean o Aelodau newydd yn y Senedd yn awr, mae gennym dalent newydd, sydd wedi cael profiad mewn awdurdodau lleol. Os nad ydych am wrando arnaf i, gwrandewch arnynt hwy. Diolch.
I call on the Minister for Finance and Local Government, Rebecca Evans.
Galwaf ar y Gweinidog Cyllid a Llywodraeth Leol, Rebecca Evans.
Diolch. I welcome the first part of the motion. We all, of course, want to thank local government staff and elected members for the work that they've done over the last two years. And they've been exceptional times and local government's response has truly been exceptional. I look forward to continuing the really strong working relationships that we've developed during what's undoubtedly been the most challenging time for local government in living memory. The challenges facing local government, though, are not over and we must now collectively face up to further challenges, including the cost-of-living crisis and the climate emergency, and I know that our local authorities are determined to meet those challenges.
I also welcome the second part of the motion. Local authorities funded to provide good public services for everyone and that support those who need it are at the heart of our plan for a stronger, greener and fairer Wales. So far, through the pandemic, we've supported local authorities with over £860 million through the hardship fund in recognition of additional costs, loss of income and the support schemes that they're administering for us, and councils have delivered to small businesses, to individuals and to communities. And as we've heard, I was pleased to announce, on 16 December, a 9.4 per cent increase in local government core funding for 2022-23 over the current financial year. And this means that an additional £437 million is being provided to continue to support local government to deliver the high-quality services that the people of Wales deserve.
I had hoped to keep my response and my comments in this debate positive and helpful, but, my goodness, I have to object to the Conservatives bemoaning what they're trying to characterise as a decade of underfunding on behalf of the Welsh Labour Government, because, of course, we are talking about a decade of austerity imposed by the UK Government. And I respectfully suggest that it's the Conservatives in this place who need to get a grip and it's high time that they started to take some responsibility for the impacts of the choices of their party in Westminster.
But I will move on to say that the core funding that we provide to local government is distributed through a well-established formula, created and developed in collaboration with local government and agreed annually with local government through the finance sub-group of the partnership council for Wales. And this formula is free of political agenda and it's driven by data, and the settlement is distributed on a formula using over 70 indicators of need to spend. It does have collective buy-in from local government and is rightly based on the key principles of equalising for relative need to spend and relative ability to raise income locally. The formula's constructed and governed in—[Interruption.] Of course.
Diolch. Rwy'n croesawu rhan gyntaf y cynnig. Mae pob un ohonom wrth gwrs yn dymuno diolch i staff llywodraeth leol ac aelodau etholedig am y gwaith y maent wedi'i wneud dros y ddwy flynedd ddiwethaf. Ac mae wedi bod yn gyfnod eithriadol ac mae ymateb llywodraeth leol wedi bod yn eithriadol. Edrychaf ymlaen at barhau'r berthynas waith gref iawn yr ydym wedi'i datblygu yn ystod yr amser mwyaf heriol, heb os, y gall neb ei gofio i lywodraeth leol. Fodd bynnag, nid yw'r heriau sy'n wynebu llywodraeth leol ar ben a rhaid inni yn awr wynebu heriau pellach gyda'n gilydd, gan gynnwys yr argyfwng costau byw a'r argyfwng hinsawdd, a gwn fod ein hawdurdodau lleol yn benderfynol o ymateb i'r heriau hynny.
Rwyf hefyd yn croesawu ail ran y cynnig. Mae awdurdodau lleol sydd wedi eu hariannu i ddarparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus da i bawb ac sy'n cefnogi'r rhai sydd eu hangen yn ganolog yn ein cynllun ar gyfer Cymru gryfach, decach a gwyrddach. Hyd yn hyn, drwy'r pandemig, rydym wedi cefnogi awdurdodau lleol â thros £860 miliwn drwy'r gronfa galedi i gydnabod costau ychwanegol, colli incwm a'r cynlluniau cymorth y maent yn eu gweinyddu ar ein rhan, ac mae cynghorau wedi cyflawni dros fusnesau bach, unigolion a chymunedau. Ac fel y clywsom, roeddwn yn falch o gyhoeddi, ar 16 Rhagfyr, y cynnydd o 9.4 y cant yng nghyllid craidd llywodraeth leol ar gyfer 2022-23 dros y flwyddyn ariannol gyfredol. Ac mae hyn yn golygu bod £437 miliwn ychwanegol yn cael ei ddarparu i barhau i gynorthwyo llywodraeth leol i ddarparu'r gwasanaethau o ansawdd uchel y mae pobl Cymru yn eu haeddu.
Roeddwn wedi gobeithio cadw fy ymateb a fy sylwadau yn y ddadl hon yn gadarnhaol ac yn ddefnyddiol, ond bobol bach, rhaid imi wrthwynebu'r ffordd y mae'r Ceidwadwyr yn cwyno am yr hyn y maent yn ceisio'i ddisgrifio fel degawd o danariannu ar ran Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru, oherwydd, wrth gwrs, rydym yn sôn am ddegawd o gyni a orfodwyd gan Lywodraeth y DU. Ac rwy'n awgrymu'n barchus mai'r Ceidwadwyr yn y lle hwn a ddylai gallio ac mae'n hen bryd iddynt ddechrau ysgwyddo rhywfaint o gyfrifoldeb am effeithiau dewisiadau eu plaid yn San Steffan.
Ond rwyf am symud ymlaen i ddweud bod y cyllid craidd a ddarparwn i lywodraeth leol yn cael ei ddosbarthu drwy fformiwla sefydledig, wedi'i chreu a'i datblygu mewn cydweithrediad â llywodraeth leol a'i chytuno'n flynyddol gyda llywodraeth leol drwy is-grŵp cyllid cyngor partneriaeth Cymru. Ac mae'r fformiwla hon yn rhydd o agenda wleidyddol ac yn cael ei gyrru gan ddata, a chaiff y setliad ei ddosbarthu drwy fformiwla sy'n defnyddio dros 70 o ddangosyddion o angen i wario. Mae'n cael cefnogaeth gyfunol gan lywodraeth leol ac mae'n seiliedig yn briodol ar egwyddorion allweddol cydraddoli ar gyfer angen cymharol i wario a gallu cymharol i godi incwm yn lleol. Mae'r fformiwla wedi'i chreu a'i llywodraethu yn—[Torri ar draws.] Wrth gwrs.
Can I make a brief intervention here? Thank you. You pointed out there that the formula is driven by data. Would you accept, though, as I pointed out, that some of the data points—actually, quite a few of the data points—are clearly very far out of date? And, actually, a piece of work needs to be done, at the very least, to make sure that the data you're using, and Government is using, to fund councils is accurate and as up to date as possible.
A gaf fi wneud ymyriad byr yma? Diolch. Fe ddywedoch chi fod y fformiwla'n cael ei gyrru gan ddata. A fyddech yn derbyn, er hynny, fel y dywedais, fod rhai o'r pwyntiau data—cryn dipyn o'r pwyntiau data mewn gwirionedd—yn amlwg wedi dyddio cryn dipyn? Ac mewn gwirionedd, mae angen gwneud rhywfaint o waith o leiaf i sicrhau bod y data a ddefnyddiwch, ac y mae'r Llywodraeth yn ei ddefnyddio, i ariannu cynghorau yn gywir ac mor gyfredol â phosibl.
And I'm just about to come on to exactly that point. The formula is constructed and governed in such a way that it can't be manipulated unfairly by any one authority or group of authorities, or by politicians, whether they're locally elected councillors or Welsh Government Ministers. And, of course, there have always been calls for a fundamental review of the formula, and some have been made to me as recently as last week. But these calls have been isolated and they're not united, and we've always recognised the risks and challenges that such a review would pose. But that, of course, isn't to say that the formula is fixed.
Ac rwyf ar fin dod at yr union bwynt hwnnw. Mae'r fformiwla'n cael ei chreu a'i llywodraethu yn y fath fodd fel na ellir ei chamddefnyddio'n annheg gan unrhyw awdurdod neu grŵp o awdurdodau, neu gan wleidyddion, boed yn gynghorwyr a etholwyd yn lleol neu'n Weinidogion Llywodraeth Cymru. Ac wrth gwrs, mae galwadau wedi bod erioed am adolygiad sylfaenol o'r fformiwla, ac chefais alwadau mor ddiweddar â'r wythnos ddiwethaf. Ond prin yw'r galwadau hyn ac nid ydynt yn unedig, ac rydym bob amser wedi cydnabod y risgiau a'r heriau y byddai adolygiad o'r fath yn eu hachosi. Ond nid yw hynny'n golygu bod y fformiwla yn sefydlog wrth gwrs.
Would you take a further intervention, Minister?
A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad pellach, Weinidog?
Of course.
Wrth gwrs.
Would you agree with me—? You will see from the Finance Committee's evidence that the Welsh Local Government Association are saying that many local authorities' reserves are shrinking, at a time, though, when the actual reserves in the WLGA, in the local government family's pot, have increased by £0.5 billion during the pandemic. How can it be justified that a formula can allow those huge differences to continue? Because that will allow some authorities to fall off a cliff edge, if it's allowed to continue. This isn't about the quantum; this is about the distribution.
A fyddech yn cytuno â mi—? Fe welwch o dystiolaeth y Pwyllgor Cyllid fod Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru yn dweud bod llawer o gronfeydd wrth gefn awdurdodau lleol yn crebachu, ar adeg, er hynny, pan fo cronfeydd wrth gefn gwirioneddol CLlLC, ym mhot y teulu llywodraeth leol, wedi cynyddu £0.5 biliwn yn ystod y pandemig. Sut y gellir cyfiawnhau'r ffaith bod fformiwla yn caniatáu i'r gwahaniaethau enfawr hynny barhau? Oherwydd bydd hynny'n peri i rai awdurdodau ddisgyn oddi ar ymyl clogwyn, os caniateir iddo barhau. Nid yw hyn yn ymwneud â'r swm; mae'n ymwneud â'r dosbarthiad.
And I think that you would agree with me that, when we do publish our annual report of local government reserves, it is just a snapshot in time, and that many councils do have plans, and they have earmarked money within reserves for plans. So, it does only reflect a snapshot at that point in time. And, of course, we have seen a couple of extraordinary years, so local government reserves I don't think this year are necessarily going to be reflective of what you would see in normal years. I know we'll go on to discuss reserves, but I do want to continue to talk about the formula and say that it isn't fixed.
It is under constant review, through the work of the distribution sub-group, overseen by the finance sub-group. I did discuss the formula's suitability in distributing funding to local government with local government leaders just last week, at the finance sub-group, and we did, at that meeting, consider the impact of changes to welfare benefits and we talked about the census and the timeliness of some data within the formula.
So, as agreed with local government leaders, the DSG is about to embark upon a programme of work to consider potential updates to the formula, using outputs from the latest census, which will provide us with much more up-to-date and relevant information. And I think that this is really important, and it's also one of the reasons why I was only able to provide Wales-level settlement allocations for years 2 and 3 of the multi-year settlement, and that was to ensure that we are using the most accurate and up-to-date data.
Interestingly, the majority of data in the formula, relating to 72 per cent of the funding, is actually updated annually. In recent years, the DSG has recommended changes to the treatment of a number of data sets, as a result of the reforms to the welfare system and also the impact of the pandemic. And then, that separate issue that was raised this afternoon, which was also raised in the Local Government and Housing Committee with me last month, relating to the weightings applied to different age cohorts within the formula, I just want to confirm that officials will be discussing this particular issue with the distribution sub-group at their next meeting on 22 March.
As colleagues have recognised, we have committed to making council tax fairer in Wales and, as part of this work, we will need to consider how the funding formula needs to respond to this, and other change of circumstances, whilst also continuing to provide authorities with stability and certainty. Of course, as we've heard, any change to the formula inevitably results in winners and losers, and these could be substantial. And that's why we've said previously that, if there is a collective appetite from local government to carry out a fundamental review of the local government settlement funding formula, we will act on it, and we'll do that together.
But while there are always improvements to be planned and made, I can't agree that the current formula is unfit for purpose. It does provides transparency and stability, while responding to changing needs and circumstances, and our continuing support for local government, demonstrated throughout the pandemic and with the latest three-year funding proposals, enables local authorities to deliver high-class local services right across Wales. Diolch.
A chredaf y byddech yn cytuno â mi, pan fyddwn yn cyhoeddi ein hadroddiad blynyddol ar gronfeydd wrth gefn llywodraeth leol, mai cipolwg yn unig ydyw, a bod gan lawer o gynghorau gynlluniau, ac maent wedi clustnodi arian o fewn y cronfeydd wrth gefn ar gyfer cynlluniau. Felly, nid yw ond yn adlewyrchu cipolwg ar yr adeg honno. Ac wrth gwrs, gwelsom ychydig o flynyddoedd eithriadol, felly nid wyf yn credu y bydd cronfeydd wrth gefn llywodraeth leol eleni o reidrwydd yn adlewyrchu'r hyn y byddech yn ei weld mewn blynyddoedd arferol. Gwn y byddwn yn mynd ymlaen i drafod cronfeydd wrth gefn, ond rwyf eisiau parhau i siarad am y fformiwla a dweud nad yw'n sefydlog.
Mae'n cael ei adolygu'n gyson, drwy waith yr is-grŵp dosbarthu, a oruchwylir gan yr is-grŵp cyllid. Trafodais addasrwydd y fformiwla ar gyfer dosbarthu cyllid i lywodraeth leol gydag arweinwyr llywodraeth leol yr wythnos diwethaf, yng nghyfarfod yr is-grŵp cyllid, ac yn y cyfarfod hwnnw, fe wnaethom ystyried effaith newidiadau i fudd-daliadau lles a buom yn siarad am y cyfrifiad ac amseroldeb peth o'r data yn y fformiwla.
Felly, fel y cytunwyd gydag arweinwyr llywodraeth leol, mae'r is-grŵp dosbarthu ar fin cychwyn ar raglen waith i ystyried diweddariadau posibl i'r fformiwla, gan ddefnyddio allbynnau o'r cyfrifiad diweddaraf, a fydd yn darparu gwybodaeth lawer mwy cyfredol a pherthnasol i ni. A chredaf fod hyn yn bwysig iawn, ac mae hefyd yn un o'r rhesymau pam nad oeddwn ond yn gallu darparu dyraniadau setliad ar lefel Cymru ar gyfer blynyddoedd 2 a 3 y setliad aml-flwyddyn, er mwyn sicrhau ein bod yn defnyddio'r data mwyaf cywir a chyfredol.
Yn ddiddorol, mae'r rhan fwyaf o'r data yn y fformiwla, sy'n berthnasol i 72 y cant o'r cyllid, yn cael ei ddiweddaru'n flynyddol. Yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf, mae'r is-grŵp dosbarthu wedi argymell newidiadau i'r ffordd yr ymdrinnir â nifer o setiau data, o ganlyniad i'r diwygiadau i'r system les yn ogystal ag effaith y pandemig. Ac yna, y mater ar wahân a godwyd y prynhawn yma, ac a godwyd hefyd yn y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai y mis diwethaf, yn ymwneud â'r pwysoliad a gymhwyswyd i wahanol garfanau oedran yn y fformiwla, rwyf eisiau cadarnhau y bydd swyddogion yn trafod y mater penodol hwn gyda'r is-grŵp dosbarthu yn eu cyfarfod nesaf ar 22 Mawrth.
Fel y mae cyd-Aelodau wedi cydnabod, rydym wedi ymrwymo i wneud y dreth gyngor yn decach yng Nghymru ac fel rhan o'r gwaith hwn, bydd angen inni ystyried sut y mae angen i'r fformiwla ariannu ymateb i hyn, a newidiadau eraill i amgylchiadau, gan barhau i ddarparu sefydlogrwydd a sicrwydd i awdurdodau. Wrth gwrs, fel y clywsom, mae unrhyw newid i'r fformiwla yn anochel yn arwain at enillwyr a chollwyr, a gallai'r rhain fod yn sylweddol. A dyna pam ein bod wedi dweud o'r blaen, os oes awydd cyfunol gan lywodraeth leol i gynnal adolygiad sylfaenol o fformiwla ariannu setliadau llywodraeth leol, byddwn yn gweithredu ar hynny, ac y byddwn yn gwneud hynny gyda'n gilydd.
Ond er bod gwelliannau bob amser i'w cynllunio a'u gwneud, ni allaf gytuno bod y fformiwla bresennol yn anaddas i'r diben. Mae'n darparu tryloywder a sefydlogrwydd, gan ymateb i anghenion ac amgylchiadau sy'n newid, ac mae ein cefnogaeth barhaus i lywodraeth leol, a ddangoswyd drwy gydol y pandemig a chyda'r cynigion ariannu tair blynedd diweddaraf, yn galluogi awdurdodau lleol i ddarparu gwasanaethau lleol o'r radd flaenaf ledled Cymru. Diolch.
I call on Laura Anne Jones to reply to the debate.
Galwaf ar Laura Anne Jones i ymateb i'r ddadl.
Diolch, acting Presiding Officer. I'd like to firstly declare that I'm still a councillor in Monmouthshire County Council. May I start by thanking Darren Millar and the Welsh Conservatives for bringing forward this debate today? And thank you, Minister, and I thank everybody for their contributions this afternoon.
Acting Presiding Officer, having sat in many Senedds and Assemblies like myself, you will know too that what we've heard today is nothing new. We have heard pleas over and over from Members across Wales, time and time again, as Carolyn Thomas and Janet Finch-Saunders have said, and as Sam Rowlands said, that that formula is inherently out of date and fundamentally unfair. Yet nothing has changed.
It is a shame, and it's a particular shame as we have a sixth Senedd that supposedly prides itself on fairness, social justice and equality, a Senedd that proclaims it wants to look after every person in need in Wales. Yet we have a Welsh Labour Government determined not to change a formula that determines local government funding that means that some most in need will be disadvantaged.
There is a massive difference between doing the right thing and doing the right thing for your party. It is disappointing to witness the look-after-your-own attitudes that we have seen in this Chamber today. Minister, Labour's standpoint is clearly a politically motivated decision to keep a formula that means that some of the struggling low-income families in Wales out there could be potentially left without the services or support that they need, or have to deal with council tax rises because they happen to live in a rural area, where they work, that is deemed affluent.
It is lucky, as Peter Fox has highlighted, that we have councils in these hard-hit areas, like in his own constituency of Monmouthshire County Council, who are consistently at the bottom of the table when these funds are distributed, that are so good at managing money and so innovative in coming up with schemes for their residents that mean that much needed support for their most vulnerable and the less-well-off doesn't have to suffer because of the extraordinarily unfair deal that they receive from this Welsh Government.
It is not right, as Janet Finch-Saunders and Gareth have both said, that councils in rural areas in north Wales, those that have significant ageing populations or with severe pockets of deprivation in rural areas, have to consider raising council tax as the only way to save their vital services for their residents. It is not right, as Janet Finch-Saunders said, that we are putting our most vulnerable at risk.
As Sam Rowlands, Mike Hedges and Llyr Gruffydd say, many of our councils have been exemplary. The way that our councils have reacted to the pandemic just shows how valuable they are, and I extend my thanks to them also. It was impressive to see how councils were able to reorganise, adapt to where their constituents most needed them; how they became a blanket for the most vulnerable in this national crisis; how councils react to flooding. Whatever is thrown at them, as Mike Hedges said, they are always on the front line, delivering to our constituents. We need our councils, all councils, across the whole of Wales, regardless of which party runs them. They play a vital role in delivering our Senedd's and your Government's aims.
As Peter Fox says, if we continue to underfund them, whilst continually putting more pressure on them, then we may even see some councils fall. This comes from someone who has been a council leader for 13 years, who has seen first-hand how a slight percentage change in the funding formula affects the day-to-day running of a council and how it delivers its vital services, and the difficult position that constantly underfunding a council can put it in.
The unfairness, as Gareth Davies says, cannot continue. We have a formula that uses out-of-date data, as Sam Rowlands has pointed out time and time again in this debate. As Llyr Gruffydd said, there are winners and losers in any formula, but we need to find a formula that is fair, the fairest possible formula that we can have. He also raises important things that we need to take into account in any review of using census data or a funding floor.
For two decades now, since the formula was established, rurality has been overlooked. As the Welsh Conservatives and Plaid Members have said today in this debate, rurality needs to be factored in. Its vast areas demand more money. Put very simply, Minister, like Peter Fox said, the cost of collecting rubbish from 100 terraced houses compared to 100 spaced-out farms is going to be hugely different in terms of time and fuel costs. The Welsh Government's funding formula for local government doesn't take this into account; it is fundamentally flawed and fails to recognise the challenges of delivering services in rural areas.
Rural councils simply cannot deliver some of the efficiencies that can be driven in small, geographical areas in the way that cities and Valleys councils can. Newport now has one household waste and recycling centre; English-medium post-16 education in Torfaen is delivered from a single campus, the Torfaen learning zone. That's brilliant, but these are two examples of efficiencies that cannot be achieved in a sparsely populated rural area where you need smaller, accessible schools and services within reasonable travel distances.
We have an ageing population. As Gareth said, we are on the brink of facing a crisis in our councils due to the enormous extra pressures that an ageing population brings, particularly in our health and social care budgets in councils. As Sam Rowlands said, it is a problem and a financial pressure that is only going to get worse.
We've heard from the Minister today about how councils like Monmouthshire have had the best settlement yet. Although in part this is true and very welcome, as we've said, it is not entirely true, is it? If this Welsh Government were to continue giving money in that fashion year on year in the same way, it would certainly be something to celebrate, but it's not, is it? It is a good amount, Minister, in this first headline-grabbing 'there's an election coming' year, but what about the years to follow? It's funding, particularly post pandemic, that will be going down. Funding, particularly post pandemic, and particularly when we're facing a cost-of-living crisis, needs to go up year on year to at least fall in line with rises in inflation. That's the reality. So, there is a bit of smoke and mirrors going on here today, if you're honest, Minister.
As Sam Rowlands and all our Conservative Members have said here today, we welcome the money, but it's not the answer and it's certainly not all you claim it to be. As Peter said, his constituency of Monmouthshire is the lowest funded council in Wales, receiving just £1,176 per head of population, yet some neighbouring urban councils receive as much as £1,881 per head. Even the second and third lowest councils, the Vale of Glamorgan and Flintshire—£1,372 and £1,476 respectively—receive significantly more than Monmouthshire. As my colleague Peter says, if Monmouthshire was funded at the Welsh average, the council would receive an extra £40 million every year to put into front-line services. The gap between the best and worst councils in Wales has simply got too wide, and it does impact on the running of the council and the success of bids, as Carolyn Thomas says. Even this year, with Monmouthshire receiving the largest percentage increase of 11.2 per cent, following years of underfunding, the gap between Monmouthshire and other councils continues to widen. This is completely unsustainable and speaks volumes about the attitudes of this Welsh Government towards rural Wales.
Cross-party leaders in the WLGA have all relayed their major concerns on the unfair formula, with the obvious exception of some, as it's like turkeys voting for Christmas. We urgently need an independent external review of funding for local government to ensure that it delivers fair funding for all parts of Wales. [Interruption.] Monmouthshire as well, yes. After two decades of a funding formula for local government that has punished north Wales—as Janet, Gareth, Sam and Carolyn has said—has punished rural areas, doesn't take into account an ageing population or pockets of deprivation in rural areas, it is now time, time to have a Senedd that's true to its word of making Wales an equal Wales, to have a Government that will establish an independent review, or something in line with what you're doing with council tax, and seek to change the unfair, out-of-date funding formula and the way that local government is funded for good.
Thank you, again, everybody, for your contributions and to Plaid Cymru for your support. I hope that Members across this Chamber today will vote for our motion and do what is right for all of Wales, not just for your party.
Diolch, Lywydd dros dro. Hoffwn ddatgan yn gyntaf fy mod yn dal i fod yn gynghorydd yng Nghyngor Sir Fynwy. A gaf fi ddechrau drwy ddiolch i Darren Millar a'r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig am gyflwyno'r ddadl hon heddiw? A diolch, Weinidog, a diolch i bawb am eu cyfraniadau y prynhawn yma.
Lywydd dros dro, a chithau fel finnau wedi eistedd mewn llawer o Seneddau a Chynulliadau, fe fyddwch chi hefyd yn gwybod nad yw'r hyn a glywsom heddiw yn ddim byd newydd. Rydym wedi clywed dadleuon drosodd a throsodd gan Aelodau ledled Cymru, dro ar ôl tro, fel y dywedodd Carolyn Thomas a Janet Finch-Saunders, ac fel y dywedodd Sam Rowlands, fod y fformiwla honno wedi dyddio ac yn sylfaenol annheg. Ac eto, nid oes unrhyw beth wedi newid.
Mae'n drueni, ac mae'n drueni arbennig gan fod gennym chweched Senedd sy'n ymfalchïo mewn tegwch, cyfiawnder cymdeithasol a chydraddoldeb, Senedd sy'n honni ei bod eisiau gofalu am bob person mewn angen yng Nghymru. Ac eto, mae gennym Lywodraeth Lafur Cymru sy'n benderfynol o beidio â newid fformiwla sy'n pennu cyllid llywodraeth leol mewn ffordd sy'n golygu y bydd rhai o'r bobl fwyaf anghenus o dan anfantais.
Mae gwahaniaeth enfawr rhwng gwneud y peth iawn a gwneud y peth iawn i'ch plaid. Mae'n siomedig gweld yr agweddau pleidiol a welsom yn y Siambr hon heddiw. Weinidog, mae safbwynt Llafur yn amlwg yn benderfyniad gwleidyddol i gadw fformiwla sy'n golygu y gallai rhai o'r teuluoedd incwm isel sy'n ei chael hi'n anodd yng Nghymru orfod mynd heb y gwasanaethau a'r cymorth sydd eu hangen arnynt, neu orfod ymdopi â chodiadau i'r dreth gyngor am eu bod yn digwydd byw mewn ardal wledig, lle maent yn gweithio, sy'n cael ei hystyried yn gyfoethog.
Mae'n ffodus, fel y nododd Peter Fox, fod gennym gynghorau yn yr ardaloedd hyn a gafodd eu taro'n galed, fel yn ei etholaeth ei hun yng Nghyngor Sir Fynwy, sydd ar waelod y tabl yn gyson pan gaiff yr arian ei ddosbarthu, ac sydd mor dda am reoli arian ac mor arloesol wrth lunio cynlluniau i'w trigolion fel nad oes rhaid i'r cymorth mawr ei angen i'w pobl fwyaf agored i niwed a'r rhai llai cefnog ddioddef oherwydd y fargen eithriadol o annheg y maent wedi'i chael gan Lywodraeth Cymru.
Nid yw'n iawn, fel y dywedodd Janet Finch-Saunders a Gareth, fod yn rhaid i gynghorau mewn ardaloedd gwledig yng ngogledd Cymru, y rhai sydd â phoblogaeth sy'n heneiddio o faint sylweddol neu sydd â phocedi difrifol o amddifadedd mewn ardaloedd gwledig, ystyried codi'r dreth gyngor fel yr unig ffordd o achub eu gwasanaethau hanfodol i'w trigolion. Nid yw'n iawn, fel y dywedodd Janet Finch-Saunders, ein bod yn peryglu ein pobl fwyaf agored i niwed.
Fel y dywed Sam Rowlands, Mike Hedges a Llyr Gruffydd, mae llawer o'n cynghorau wedi bod yn rhagorol. Mae'r ffordd y mae ein cynghorau wedi ymateb i'r pandemig yn dangos pa mor werthfawr ydynt, a hoffwn innau ddiolch iddynt hefyd. Roedd yn drawiadol gweld sut y llwyddodd cynghorau i ad-drefnu, addasu i wneud y pethau yr oedd eu hetholwyr eu hangen fwyaf; sut y daethant yn garthen i'r rhai mwyaf agored i niwed yn yr argyfwng cenedlaethol hwn; sut y mae cynghorau'n ymateb i lifogydd. Beth bynnag sy'n cael ei daflu atynt, fel y dywedodd Mike Hedges, maent bob amser ar y rheng flaen, yn cyflawni ar gyfer ein hetholwyr. Mae arnom angen ein cynghorau, pob cyngor, ledled Cymru gyfan, ni waeth pa blaid sy'n eu harwain. Maent yn chwarae rhan allweddol yn cyflawni nodau ein Senedd a'ch Llywodraeth.
Fel y dywed Peter Fox, os byddwn yn parhau i'w tanariannu, gan roi mwy o bwysau arnynt yn barhaus, efallai y gwelwn rai cynghorau'n methu. Daw hyn gan rywun sydd wedi bod yn arweinydd cyngor ers 13 mlynedd, sydd wedi gweld yn uniongyrchol sut y mae newid canrannol bach yn y fformiwla ariannu yn effeithio ar sut y caiff cyngor ei redeg o ddydd i ddydd a sut y mae'n darparu ei wasanaethau hanfodol, a'r sefyllfa anodd y mae tanariannu cyson yn gallu rhoi cyngor ynddi.
Fel y dywed Gareth Davies, ni all yr annhegwch barhau. Mae gennym fformiwla sy'n defnyddio data sydd wedi dyddio, fel y mae Sam Rowlands wedi'i nodi dro ar ôl tro yn y ddadl hon. Fel y dywedodd Llyr Gruffydd, mae enillwyr a chollwyr mewn unrhyw fformiwla, ond mae angen inni ddod o hyd i fformiwla sy'n deg, y fformiwla decaf bosibl y gallwn ei chael. Mae hefyd yn codi pethau pwysig y mae angen inni eu hystyried mewn unrhyw adolygiad o ddefnyddio data'r cyfrifiad neu gyllid gwaelodol.
Ers dau ddegawd bellach, ers sefydlu'r fformiwla, mae natur wledig ardaloedd wedi cael ei anwybyddu. Fel y mae Aelodau'r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig a Phlaid Cymru wedi dweud heddiw yn y ddadl hon, mae angen ystyried natur wledig ardaloedd. Mae eu hardaloedd enfawr yn galw am fwy o arian. Yn syml iawn, Weinidog, fel y dywedodd Peter Fox, bydd y gost o gasglu sbwriel o 100 o dai teras o'i gymharu â 100 o ffermydd gwasgaredig yn wahanol iawn mewn amser a chostau tanwydd. Nid yw fformiwla ariannu Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer llywodraeth leol yn ystyried hyn; mae'n sylfaenol ddiffygiol ac nid yw'n cydnabod yr heriau o ddarparu gwasanaethau mewn ardaloedd gwledig.
Ni all cynghorau gwledig gyflawni rhai o'r arbedion effeithlonrwydd y gellir eu cyflawni mewn ardaloedd bach yn ddaearyddol yn y ffordd y gall cynghorau dinasoedd a chynghorau'r Cymoedd. Erbyn hyn mae gan Gasnewydd un ganolfan gwastraff cartref ac ailgylchu; darperir addysg ôl-16 cyfrwng Saesneg yn Nhorfaen o un campws, sef parth dysgu Torfaen. Mae hynny'n wych, ond mae'r rhain yn ddwy enghraifft o arbedion effeithlonrwydd na ellir eu cyflawni mewn ardal wledig denau ei phoblogaeth lle mae angen ysgolion a gwasanaethau llai, mwy hygyrch arnoch o fewn pellteroedd teithio rhesymol.
Mae gennym boblogaeth sy'n heneiddio. Fel y dywedodd Gareth, rydym ar fin wynebu argyfwng yn ein cynghorau oherwydd y pwysau ychwanegol enfawr a ddaw yn sgil poblogaeth sy'n heneiddio, yn enwedig yng nghyllidebau iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol cynghorau. Fel y dywedodd Sam Rowlands, mae'n broblem ac yn bwysau ariannol a fydd yn gwaethygu.
Clywsom gan y Gweinidog heddiw sut y mae cynghorau fel sir Fynwy wedi cael y setliad gorau hyd yma. Er bod hyn yn rhannol wir ac i'w groesawu'n fawr, fel rydym wedi'i ddweud, nid yw'n gwbl wir. Pe bai Llywodraeth Cymru yn parhau i roi arian yn y modd hwnnw flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn, byddai'n sicr yn rhywbeth i'w ddathlu, ond nid yw'n mynd i wneud hynny. Mae'n swm da, Weinidog, yn y flwyddyn gyntaf hon o gipio'r pennawd ac 'mae etholiad yn dod', ond beth am y blynyddoedd i ddilyn? Mae'n gyllid a fydd yn gostwng, yn enwedig ar ôl y pandemig. Mae angen i gyllid, yn enwedig ar ôl y pandemig, ac yn enwedig pan fyddwn yn wynebu argyfwng costau byw, godi o flwyddyn i flwyddyn i wrthbwyso'r cynnydd mewn chwyddiant fan lleiaf. Dyna'r realiti. Felly, mae rhywfaint o gamliwio'n digwydd yma heddiw, os ydych chi'n onest, Weinidog.
Fel y mae Sam Rowlands a'n holl Aelodau Ceidwadol wedi'i ddweud yma heddiw, rydym yn croesawu'r arian, ond nid dyna'r ateb ac yn sicr nid yw'n bopeth yr ydych yn honni ei fod. Fel y dywedodd Peter, ei etholaeth yn sir Fynwy yw'r cyngor sy'n cael leiaf o arian yng Nghymru, ar ddim ond £1,176 y pen, ac eto mae rhai cynghorau trefol cyfagos yn cael cymaint â £1,881 y pen. Mae hyd yn oed yr ail a'r trydydd cyngor isaf, Bro Morgannwg a sir y Fflint—£1,372 a £1,476 yn y drefn honno—yn cael llawer mwy na sir Fynwy. Fel y dywed fy nghyd-Aelod, Peter, pe bai sir Fynwy yn cael ei hariannu yn ôl cyfartaledd Cymru, byddai'r cyngor yn cael £40 miliwn ychwanegol bob blwyddyn i'w wario ar wasanaethau rheng flaen. Mae'r bwlch rhwng y cynghorau a ariennir orau ac a ariennir waethaf yng Nghymru wedi mynd yn rhy fawr, ac mae'n effeithio ar y gwaith o redeg y cyngor a llwyddiant ceisiadau, fel y dywed Carolyn Thomas. Hyd yn oed eleni, gyda sir Fynwy yn cael y cynnydd canrannol mwyaf, sef 11.2 y cant, yn dilyn blynyddoedd o danariannu, mae'r bwlch rhwng sir Fynwy a chynghorau eraill yn parhau i dyfu. Mae hyn yn gwbl anghynaliadwy ac mae'n siarad cyfrolau am agweddau'r Llywodraeth hon tuag at y Gymru wledig.
Mae arweinwyr trawsbleidiol CLlLC i gyd wedi mynegi eu prif bryderon am y fformiwla annheg, gyda rhai eithriadau amlwg, oherwydd mae fel tyrcwn yn pleidleisio dros y Nadolig. Mae arnom angen adolygiad allanol annibynnol o drefn ariannu llywodraeth leol ar frys i sicrhau ei bod yn darparu cyllid teg i bob rhan o Gymru. [Torri ar draws.] Sir Fynwy hefyd, ie. Ar ôl dau ddegawd o fformiwla ariannu llywodraeth leol sydd wedi cosbi gogledd Cymru—fel y dywedodd Janet, Gareth, Sam a Carolyn—sydd wedi cosbi ardaloedd gwledig, nad yw'n ystyried poblogaeth sy'n heneiddio na phocedi o amddifadedd mewn ardaloedd gwledig, mae'n bryd bellach inni gael Senedd sy'n cadw at ei haddewid i wneud Cymru'n Gymru gyfartal, i gael Llywodraeth a fydd yn sefydlu adolygiad annibynnol, neu rywbeth tebyg yn unol â'r hyn a wnewch gyda'r dreth gyngor, a cheisio newid y fformiwla ariannu annheg sydd wedi dyddio a'r ffordd y caiff llywodraeth leol ei hariannu unwaith ac am byth.
Diolch, unwaith eto, i bawb, am eich cyfraniadau ac i Blaid Cymru am eich cefnogaeth. Rwy'n gobeithio y bydd yr Aelodau ar draws y Siambr heddiw yn pleidleisio o blaid ein cynnig ac yn gwneud yr hyn sy'n iawn i Gymru gyfan, nid dim ond i'ch plaid chi.
Daeth y Llywydd i’r Gadair.
The Llywydd took the Chair.
Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae gwrthwynebiad. Felly, byddwn ni'n gohirio'r bleidlais tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.
The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is an objection, so we will defer voting on the motion until voting time.
Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.
Voting deferred until voting time.
Dyma ni'n cyrraedd y cyfnod pleidleisio. Byddwn ni'n cymryd toriad byr ar gyfer paratoi ar gyfer y bleidlais. Toriad byr, felly.
We now reach voting time. We'll take a short break for preparations for the vote. A short break.
Ataliwyd y Cyfarfod Llawn am 17:45.
Ailymgynullodd y Senedd am 17:49, gyda'r Llywydd yn y Gadair.
Plenary was suspended at 17:45.
The Senedd reconvened at 17:49, with the Llywydd in the Chair.
Dyma ni'n cyrraedd y cyfnod pleidleisio nawr, a'r bleidlais gyntaf y prynhawn yma ar ddadl Aelodau o dan Reol Sefydlog 11.21(iv), ar etholiadau llywodraeth leol. Dwi'n galw am bleidlais ar y cynnig a gyflwynwyd yn enwau Rhys ab Owen, Llyr Gruffydd a Jane Dodds. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 13, dwy yn ymatal, 39 yn erbyn, ac felly mae'r cynnig wedi'i wrthod.
We have reached voting time, and the first vote this afternoon is on the Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv), on local government elections. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the names of Rhys ab Owen, Llyr Gruffydd and Jane Dodds. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, two abstentions, 39 against, and therefore the motion is not agreed.
Eitem 5. Dadl Aelodau o dan Reol Sefydlog 11.21(iv) – Etholiadau llywodraeth leol, cyflwynwyd yn enwau Rhys ab Owen, Llyr Gruffydd a Jane Dodds: O blaid: 13, Yn erbyn: 39, Ymatal: 2
Gwrthodwyd y cynnig
Item 5. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv) – Local government elections, tabled in the names of Rhys ab Owen, Llyr Gruffydd and Jane Dodds: For: 13, Against: 39, Abstain: 2
Motion has been rejected
Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yw'r bleidlais nesaf, ar ariannu llywodraeth leol. Dwi'n galw am bleidlais, felly, ar y cynnig a gyflwynwyd yn enw Darren Millar. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 26, neb yn ymatal, 28 yn erbyn, ac felly mae'r cynnig wedi'i wrthod.
The next vote is on the Welsh Conservatives debate on local government funding. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, no abstentions, 28 against, and therefore the motion has been rejected.
Eitem 7. Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Ariannu llywodraeth leol. Cynnig heb ei ddiwygio: O blaid: 26, Yn erbyn: 28, Ymatal: 0
Gwrthodwyd y cynnig
Item 7. Welsh Conservatives debate - Local government funding. Motion without amendment.: For: 26, Against: 28, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejected
Pleidlais ar welliant 1 nesaf, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Lesley Griffiths. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 28, neb yn ymatal, 26 yn erbyn. Mae'r gwelliant wedi'i dderbyn.
Next is a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 28, no abstentions, 26 against. The amendment is agreed.
Eitem 7, Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig. Gwelliant 1, cyflwynwyd yn enw Lesley Griffiths: O blaid: 28, Yn erbyn: 26, Ymatal: 0
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Item 7. Welsh Conservatives debate. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 28, Against: 26, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreed
Pleidlais olaf, felly, ar y cynnig wedi'i ddiwygio gan y gwelliant.
The last vote, therefore, on the motion as amended.
Cynnig NDM7923 fel y'i diwygiwyd:
Cynnig bod y Senedd:
1. Yn diolch i gynghorwyr, awdurdodau lleol a'u staff ledled Cymru am eu rôl yn ystod pandemig y coronafeirws.
2. Yn credu bod yn rhaid i awdurdodau lleol Cymru gael eu hariannu'n ddigonol i'w galluogi i ddarparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus o'r ansawdd uchel y maent yn anelu ato.
3. Yn nodi'r cynnydd arfaethedig o 9.4 y cant yn y setliad llywodraeth leol ar gyfer 2022-23 a gyhoeddwyd ar 16 Rhagfyr 2021, a fydd yn parhau i gynorthwyo awdurdodau i ddarparu gwasanaethau o safon uchel.
4. Yn cydnabod bod llywodraeth leol a Llywodraeth Cymru ar y cyd yn parhau i adolygu a datblygu'r fformiwla ariannu fel ei bod yn parhau i fod yn deg, yn addas i'r diben ac yn cynnig sefydlogrwydd ac ymatebolrwydd i awdurdodau.
Motion NDM7923 as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Thanks councillors, local authorities and their staff across Wales for their role during the coronavirus pandemic.
2. Believes that Welsh local authorities must be adequately funded to enable them to deliver the high quality public services to which they aspire.
3. Notes the proposed local government settlement increase for 2022-23 of 9.4 per cent announced on 16 December 2021, which will continue to support authorities to deliver high quality services.
4. Recognises that local government and the Welsh Government continue to jointly review and develop the funding formula so that it continues to be fair, fit for purpose and offers authorities both stability and responsiveness.
Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 28, neb yn ymatal, 26 yn erbyn, ac felly mae'r cynnig wedi'i ddiwygio wedi'i dderbyn.
Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 28, no abstentions, 26 against, and therefore the motion as amended is agreed.
Eitem 7. Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Ariannu Llywodraeth Leol. Cynnig wedi'i ddiwygio: O blaid: 28, Yn erbyn: 26, Ymatal: 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig fel y'i diwygiwyd
Item 7. Welsh Conservatives debate - Local Government funding. Motion as amended: For: 28, Against: 26, Abstain: 0
Motion as amended has been agreed
Dyna ddiwedd ar y pleidleisio y prynhawn yma.
That is the end of voting this afternoon.
Mae yna un eitem arall, sef eitem 9, y ddadl fer. Dwi'n galw ar Laura Anne Jones i gyflwyno'r ddadl fer.
There is one more item, namely item 9, the short debate. I call on Laura Anne Jones to introduce the short debate.
Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to give a minute of my time to Peter Fox, James Evans, Janet Finch-Saunders and Samuel Kurtz.
I'm pleased to bring forward this debate today, 'Regenerating town and city centres in Wales: More of the same will simply not work'. It is now more than ever important to discuss these issues after the past two years inflicting untold damages to our towns and city centres. It's crucially important that we discuss the key issues facing our towns and city centres and offer workable solutions to safeguard our constituents and communities going forward.
The challenges facing Wales following COVID-19 are similar to the regeneration of 1945 post-war Britain. National and local government need to deliver integrated solutions and make brave decisions going forward, providing honest, strong and dynamic leadership. Sadly, in my patch of South Wales East and the rest of Wales, the outlook for many town and city centres is bleak. Newport is thought to have the most closed shops in all of Britain, with more than one third in its centre permanently closed. This shows the scale of the challenge that we're facing here in Wales.
Worryingly, COVID-19 has cost businesses in cities and large town centres more than a third of their potential takings, and shut down thousands since March 2020. The Centre for Cities 'City centres: past, present and future' report highlighted that cities like Newport have suffered significant challenges due to lack of investment over the years from high-skilled businesses. These firms increasingly prefer a city centre location as the dense business environment allows them to share ideas and knowledge easily. If a city centre is failing to attract these types of firms, the city as a whole will lose out on this investment, in turn affecting wage and career progression and opportunities locally.
The lack of inward investment has had a devastating knock-on effect for the local and Welsh economy as a whole. Opportunities have been missed to attract high-skilled and higher-wage jobs to the area, which feeds back into the diversification issue that I mentioned previously. This is a prime example of why free ports, in partnership with the UK Government, should be promoted and brought to places like Newport, to encourage that inward investment. The report also shows the drastic scale of how bad it's now become in my own patch, with Newport having a 24 per cent shop vacancy rate, compared to Brighton and Birmingham, which have a between 8 and 10 per cent vacancy rate.
Diolch, Lywydd. Hoffwn roi munud o fy amser i Peter Fox, James Evans, Janet Finch-Saunders a Samuel Kurtz.
Rwy'n falch o gyflwyno'r ddadl hon heddiw, 'Adfywio canol trefi a dinasoedd yng Nghymru: ni fydd mwy o'r un peth yn gweithio'. Erbyn hyn, mae'n bwysicach nag erioed i drafod y materion hyn ar ôl i'r ddwy flynedd ddiwethaf achosi niwed aruthrol i ganol trefi a dinasoedd. Mae'n hollbwysig ein bod yn trafod y materion allweddol sy'n wynebu canol trefi a dinasoedd a chynnig atebion ymarferol i ddiogelu ein hetholwyr a'n cymunedau wrth symud ymlaen.
Mae'r heriau sy'n wynebu Cymru yn dilyn COVID-19 yn debyg i adfywiad Prydain ar ôl y rhyfel ym 1945. Mae angen i lywodraeth genedlaethol a lleol ddarparu atebion integredig a gwneud penderfyniadau dewr wrth symud ymlaen, gan ddarparu arweinyddiaeth onest, gref a deinamig. Yn anffodus, yn fy ardal i yn Nwyrain De Cymru a gweddill Cymru, mae'r rhagolygon i lawer o ganol trefi a dinasoedd yn llwm. O bob ardal ym Mhrydain, credir mai yng Nghasnewydd y ceir y nifer mwyaf o siopau wedi cau, gyda mwy na thraean o siopau yng nghanol y ddinas wedi cau'n barhaol. Mae hyn yn dangos maint yr her a wynebwn yma yng Nghymru.
Mae'n peri pryder fod COVID-19 wedi costio mwy na thraean eu hincwm posibl i fusnesau mewn dinasoedd a chanol trefi mawr, ac wedi cau miloedd ers mis Mawrth 2020. Nododd yr adroddiad 'City centres: past, present and future' gan The Centre for Cities fod dinasoedd fel Casnewydd wedi dioddef heriau sylweddol oherwydd diffyg buddsoddiad dros y blynyddoedd gan fusnesau tra-medrus. Mae'r cwmnïau hyn yn ffafrio lleoliad yng nghanol y ddinas fwyfwy gan fod yr amgylchedd busnes dwys yn eu galluogi i rannu syniadau a gwybodaeth yn hawdd. Os yw canol dinas yn methu denu'r mathau hyn o gwmnïau, bydd y ddinas gyfan yn colli'r buddsoddiad hwn, ac yn ei dro bydd hyn yn effeithio ar gyflogau a'r gallu i gamu ymlaen mewn gyrfa a chyfleoedd yn lleol.
Mae'r diffyg mewnfuddsoddiad wedi cael effaith ganlyniadol ddinistriol ar yr economi leol ac economi Cymru yn gyffredinol. Collwyd cyfleoedd i ddenu swyddi tra-medrus a swyddi ar gyflogau uwch i'r ardal, sy'n bwydo'n ôl i broblem arallgyfeirio y soniais amdani o'r blaen. Mae hon yn enghraifft wych o pam y dylai porthladdoedd rhydd, mewn partneriaeth â Llywodraeth y DU, gael eu hyrwyddo a'u dwyn i leoedd fel Casnewydd, i annog y mewnfuddsoddiad hwnnw. Mae'r adroddiad hefyd yn dangos pa mor wael yw'r sefyllfa yn fy ardal i bellach, gyda chyfradd siopau gwag yn 24 y cant yng Nghasnewydd, o'i gymharu â Brighton a Birmingham, sydd â chyfradd siopau gwag o rhwng 8 a 10 y cant.
The pandemic cannot foot all the blame, though; things were definitely not rosy before the pandemic. For over a decade, our high streets have been battered by the perfect storm of recession, rising business rates and increased competition online. We see the results of this with the following: between 2012 and 2020, bank and building society branches reduced by 28.8 per cent, falling from 695 to 495; ATMs have fallen by 18 per cent in the last three years; post offices have fallen 3.9 per cent in the last decade. Since January 2020, 64 retail companies have failed, resulting in 6,882 stores closing, and affecting 133,600 employees in Great Britain. This has resulted in one in every seven shops on high streets in Wales being empty. However, it's far higher, as I said, in areas like Newport. The challenge will be now to attract customers back to retail after a prolonged period of relying on online sales.
When the Welsh Government introduced restrictions on what retailers could and couldn't sell, this forced more people to rely on online shopping, which has developed over the years to be far more efficient with free, cheap deliveries and returns negating the need to physically go into a shop. It is quite clear to me that Wales needs a strategy to attract a more diverse range of service providers to our towns and cities. We all know that town centres can be vibrant and sustainable, provided that brave decisions are taken and they have ambitious leadership driving development. Sadly, Wales has been devoid of this kind of leadership with Welsh Labour at the helm. We've seen certain local authorities, like Monmouthshire, having to go out on their own to protect town centres, and they've been doing it with one arm tied behind their back from this Welsh Government.
We need to see some radical and some very basic ideas implemented that would revolutionise places such as Newport, such as: providing investment through Business Wales to support small and medium-sized enterprises to get an online presence to compete with larger businesses; where larger units and buildings remain empty, creating shared retail spaces to put an emphasis on creating restaurant quarters that champion the good quality, small independent restaurants; taking tougher action against anti-social behaviour, such as employing more community safety wardens and pressing the police to increase their city centre presence so that people feel safe again in their towns and cities; and slashing business rates so that it frees up the tax burden on retailers, allowing for the potential to expand, reinvest and create more jobs locally. Additionally, it would help reinvigorate town centres, creating stimuli to attract businesses to town centres.
We need to assess and cut car parking charges. For example, Cwmbran is a far more preferred option in my area over Newport city centre, because of the range of businesses and the free parking opportunities. It's not rocket science. There are viable, easy ways to reinvigorate our town centres to make them a force to be reckoned with once again. My own area's city, Newport, used to be a vibrant place; it used to be the place to go, and many would travel far and wide from South Wales East to go there to shop. There is no excuse for it not to be again. Quite simply, we need to make a place so that people want to visit their town and city centres again. We need to make sure that people, instead of getting a train from Cwmbran to Cardiff or Chepstow to Bristol, find reasons to come to places like Newport.
We can't think of our high streets as purely shops anymore. We need to be creative and inventive with the space that we have to offer, creating a shopping experience that is a different to anything that you can get online. Town centres need to be a place where people come to learn, for public services, to live and to share time. They have to have the whole mix, and it needs to keep moving with the times. Moving with the times must also mean that online and offline must merge together. All retailers, no matter how small, should be able to offer a basic e-commerce platform so that customers can shop in whatever way is convenient for them. This would mean that customers can see what's in store before they take a trip to their high street, or they can choose to order directly from the shop. Once again, it begins with being inventive and offering the correct support to local businesses so that they can flourish.
However, none of this will be possible unless local councils and Welsh Government decide what type of country we want to live in, and intervene to protect the social infrastructure. As industry experts have long warned that rising business rates are part of the reason behind Wales's empty shop units, we need to go back to basics in creating a low-tax, enticing environment for new businesses to flourish and confidently set up shop. Simple initiatives like offering business rate discounts for independents and entrepreneurs, refusing out-of-town planning approval and scrapping parking charges will go a long way in helping our high streets.
To conclude, we need greater support and emphasis put on our town and city centres from this Government, as the 'town centre first' policy used by the Welsh Labour Government has been nothing short of abject failure. No longer can they be allowed to languish and be left behind Cardiff. They need immediate support to stop the drift and slow decline. Some of the ideas that I have highlighted here today would not only set our towns and cities back on the right path, Llywydd, but they would also create an exciting environment for inward investment and well-paying job opportunities. I look forward to hearing from colleagues in this Chamber today on their thoughts and ideas on how we can revitalise our hard-hit town and city centres, as more of the same would just not suffice.
Fodd bynnag, ni ellir rhoi'r bai i gyd ar y pandemig; yn bendant nid oedd pethau'n fêl i gyd cyn y pandemig. Ers dros ddegawd, cafodd ein strydoedd mawr eu taro gan storm berffaith dirwasgiad, ardrethi busnes cynyddol a mwy o gystadleuaeth ar-lein. Gwelwn ganlyniadau hyn gyda'r canlynol: rhwng 2012 a 2020, cafwyd gostyngiad o 28.8 y cant yn nifer y canghennau banc a chymdeithasau adeiladu, gan ostwng o 695 i 495; mae nifer y peiriannau ATM wedi gostwng 18 y cant yn ystod y tair blynedd diwethaf; mae niferoedd swyddfeydd post wedi gostwng 3.9 y cant yn ystod y degawd diwethaf. Ers mis Ionawr 2020, mae 64 o gwmnïau manwerthu wedi methu, gan arwain at gau 6,882 o siopau, ac effeithio ar 133,600 o weithwyr ym Mhrydain. Arweiniodd hyn at sefyllfa lle mae un o bob saith siop ar strydoedd mawr yng Nghymru yn wag. Fodd bynnag, mae'n llawer uwch, fel y dywedais, mewn ardaloedd fel Casnewydd. Yr her yn awr fydd denu cwsmeriaid yn ôl i siopau ar ôl cyfnod hir o ddibynnu ar werthiannau ar-lein.
Pan gyflwynodd Llywodraeth Cymru gyfyngiadau ar yr hyn y gallai ac na allai manwerthwyr ei werthu, fe wnaeth hyn orfodi mwy o bobl i ddibynnu ar siopa ar-lein, sydd wedi datblygu dros y blynyddoedd i fod yn llawer mwy effeithlon gyda danfoniadau rhad neu am ddim a'r gallu i ddychwelyd eitemau yn golygu nad oes angen mynd i siop yn y cnawd. Mae'n gwbl glir i mi fod angen strategaeth ar Gymru i ddenu ystod fwy amrywiol o ddarparwyr gwasanaethau i'n trefi a'n dinasoedd. Rydym i gyd yn gwybod y gall canol trefi fod yn fywiog a chynaliadwy, cyhyd â bod penderfyniadau dewr yn cael eu gwneud a bod ganddynt arweinyddiaeth uchelgeisiol yn sbarduno datblygiad. Yn anffodus, nid yw Cymru wedi cael y math hwn o arweinyddiaeth gyda Lafur Cymru wrth y llyw. Rydym wedi gweld rhai awdurdodau lleol, fel sir Fynwy, yn gorfod mynd ati eu hunain i ddiogelu canol trefi, ac maent wedi bod yn ei wneud gydag un fraich wedi'i chlymu y tu ôl i'w cefnau gan Lywodraeth Cymru.
Mae angen inni weld syniadau radical a sylfaenol iawn yn cael eu rhoi ar waith a fyddai'n chwyldroi lleoedd fel Casnewydd, megis: darparu buddsoddiad drwy Busnes Cymru i gynorthwyo busnesau bach a chanolig eu maint i gael presenoldeb ar-lein i gystadlu â busnesau mwy; lle mae unedau ac adeiladau mwy yn parhau i fod yn wag, creu mannau manwerthu a rennir i roi pwyslais ar greu ardaloedd bwyta sy'n hyrwyddo bwytai bach annibynnol o ansawdd da; rhoi camau llymach ar waith yn erbyn ymddygiad gwrthgymdeithasol, megis cyflogi mwy o wardeiniaid diogelwch cymunedol a phwyso ar yr heddlu i gynyddu eu presenoldeb yng nghanol y ddinas fel bod pobl yn teimlo'n ddiogel yn eu trefi a'u dinasoedd eto; a gostwng ardrethi busnes fel ei fod yn rhyddhau'r baich treth ar fanwerthwyr, gan ganiatáu i'r potensial ehangu, ailfuddsoddi a chreu mwy o swyddi'n lleol. Yn ogystal, byddai'n helpu i adfywio canol trefi, gan greu ysgogiadau i ddenu busnesau i ganol trefi.
Mae angen inni asesu a lleihau taliadau parcio. Er enghraifft, mae'n well gan bobl fynd i Gwmbrân yn fy ardal yn hytrach na chanol dinas Casnewydd, oherwydd yr amrywiaeth o fusnesau a'r cyfleoedd parcio am ddim. Nid yw'n gymhleth. Mae ffyrdd ymarferol a hawdd o adfywio canol ein trefi i sicrhau eu bod yn ffynnu unwaith eto. Arferai dinas fy ardal i, Casnewydd, fod yn lle bywiog; dyna oedd y lle i fynd yn arfer bod, a byddai nifer yn teithio'n bell o Ddwyrain De Cymru i fynd yno i siopa. Nid oes unrhyw reswm pam na all fod felly eto. Yn syml iawn, mae angen inni greu lle fel bod pobl eisiau ymweld â chanol trefi a dinasoedd eto. Mae angen inni sicrhau bod pobl, yn hytrach na chael trên o Gwmbrân i Gaerdydd neu Gas-gwent i Fryste, yn canfod rhesymau dros ddod i leoedd fel Casnewydd.
Ni allwn feddwl am ein strydoedd mawr fel siopau yn unig mwyach. Mae angen inni fod yn greadigol ac yn ddyfeisgar gyda'r gofod sydd gennym i'w gynnig, gan greu profiad siopa sy'n wahanol i unrhyw beth y gallwch ei gael ar-lein. Mae angen i ganol trefi fod yn fannau lle mae pobl yn dod i ddysgu, i fanteisio ar wasanaethau cyhoeddus, i fyw ac i rannu amser. Mae'n rhaid iddynt gael y cymysgedd cyfan, ac mae angen iddo barhau i symud gyda'r oes. Mae'n rhaid i symud gyda'r oes olygu hefyd fod yn rhaid i wasanaethau ar-lein ac all-lein ddod ynghyd. Dylai pob manwerthwr, ni waeth pa mor fach, allu cynnig llwyfan e-fasnach sylfaenol fel y gall cwsmeriaid siopa ym mha ffordd bynnag sy'n gyfleus iddynt. Byddai hyn yn golygu bod cwsmeriaid yn gallu gweld beth sydd yn y siop cyn mynd ar daith i'w stryd fawr, neu'n gallu dewis archebu'n uniongyrchol o'r siop. Unwaith eto, mae'n dechrau gyda bod yn ddyfeisgar a chynnig y cymorth cywir i fusnesau lleol er mwyn iddynt allu ffynnu.
Fodd bynnag, ni fydd dim o hyn yn bosibl oni bai bod cynghorau lleol a Llywodraeth Cymru yn penderfynu pa fath o wlad yr ydym eisiau byw ynddi, ac ymyrryd i ddiogelu'r seilwaith cymdeithasol. Gan fod arbenigwyr diwydiant wedi rhybuddio ers tro fod ardrethi busnes cynyddol yn rhan o'r rheswm dros unedau siopau gwag Cymru, mae angen inni fynd yn ôl at y pethau sylfaenol a chreu amgylchedd treth isel, deniadol i fusnesau newydd ffynnu'n hyderus. Bydd mentrau syml fel cynnig gostyngiadau ardrethi busnes i fusnesau annibynnol ac entrepreneuriaid, gwrthod cymeradwyo ceisiadau cynllunio y tu allan i'r dref a chael gwared ar daliadau parcio yn gwneud llawer i helpu ein strydoedd mawr.
I gloi, rydym angen i'r Llywodraeth hon ddarparu mwy o gefnogaeth a rhoi mwy o bwyslais ar ganol trefi a dinasoedd, gan nad yw'r polisi 'canol y dref yn gyntaf' a ddefnyddiwyd gan Lywodraeth Lafur Cymru wedi bod yn ddim byd ond methiant llwyr. Ni ellir caniatáu iddynt ddihoeni a chael eu gadael i lusgo ar ôl Caerdydd mwyach. Mae angen cymorth arnynt ar unwaith i atal y dirywiad araf. Byddai rhai o'r syniadau y tynnais sylw atynt yma heddiw nid yn unig yn rhoi ein trefi a'n dinasoedd yn ôl ar y llwybr cywir, Lywydd, byddent hefyd yn creu amgylchedd cyffrous ar gyfer mewnfuddsoddi a chyfleoedd gwaith sy'n talu'n dda. Edrychaf ymlaen at glywed gan gyd-Aelodau yn y Siambr hon heddiw am eu meddyliau a'u syniadau ar sut y gallwn adfywio canol trefi a dinasoedd sydd wedi'u taro'n galed, gan na fydd mwy o'r un peth yn ddigon.
A one-minute contribution from, to start with, Peter Fox.
Cyfraniad un funud gan Peter Fox, i ddechrau.
Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you, Laura, for giving me a minute of your time. No doubt, there will be some things that will be repeated among the contributions. Two years of pandemic and the growing trend of online shopping have added to the changing way that people use our towns. This has brought huge challenges to our high streets and its businesses. But, businesses can't address the future alone. Concerted efforts from the Welsh Government, together with local authorities, need to be stepped up throughout Wales. We can see, just by looking at Abergavenny, what a vibrant high street can look like. It is becoming widely recognised that, to re-energise our high streets and towns, we need to transform them into something more than just traditional town centres, changing them into vibrant, popular visitor destinations. The ambience of the town, the wide variety of experience that it offers, its diverse hospitality sector, its niche shopping experiences and the coffee shops are the ingredients to making a successful visitor attraction. But, we need short-term incentives to help these sites, such as continued relief with stifling business rates. We welcome what is happening at the moment in Wales, but that needs to be continued, and also looking at things, as I have raised here in the Chamber with the Minister for Economy, like the high-street voucher scheme, where we can enable people to invest and spend in their local high street. However, the immediate priority has to be getting adequate financial support into the businesses that have been hit most. If Ministers fail to do this in a way that truly recognises the difficulties they face, the very fabric that makes our towns what they are will be lost. We must guard against Wales being haunted by any ghost towns.
Diolch, Lywydd, a diolch, Laura, am roi munud o'ch amser i mi. Mae'n siŵr y bydd rhai pethau'n cael eu hailadrodd yn y cyfraniadau. Mae dwy flynedd o bandemig a'r duedd gynyddol o siopa ar-lein wedi ychwanegu at y newid yn y ffordd y mae pobl yn defnyddio ein trefi. Mae hyn wedi creu heriau enfawr i'n strydoedd mawr a'u busnesau. Ond ni all busnesau wynebu'r dyfodol ar eu pen eu hunain. Mae angen cynyddu ymdrechion Llywodraeth Cymru, ynghyd ag awdurdodau lleol, ledled Cymru. Gallwn weld, drwy edrych ar y Fenni, sut y gall stryd fawr fywiog edrych. Cydnabyddir yn gyffredinol, er mwyn ail-egnïo ein strydoedd mawr a'n trefi, fod angen inni eu trawsnewid yn rhywbeth mwy na chanol trefi traddodiadol yn unig, fod angen inni eu newid yn gyrchfannau bywiog a phoblogaidd i ymwelwyr. Awyrgylch y dref, yr amrywiaeth eang o brofiad y mae'n ei chynnig, ei sector lletygarwch amrywiol, ei phrofiadau siopa arbenigol a'r siopau coffi yw'r cynhwysion i wneud atyniad llwyddiannus i ymwelwyr. Ond mae angen cymhellion tymor byr i helpu'r safleoedd hyn, megis rhyddhad parhaus i ardrethi busnes sy'n llyffetheirio. Rydym yn croesawu'r hyn sy'n digwydd ar hyn o bryd yng Nghymru, ond mae angen parhau â hynny, ac edrych ar bethau, fel y nodais yma yn y Siambr wrth Weinidog yr Economi, fel y cynllun talebau stryd fawr, lle y gallwn alluogi pobl i fuddsoddi a gwario ar eu stryd fawr leol. Fodd bynnag, y flaenoriaeth uniongyrchol yw cael cymorth ariannol digonol i'r busnesau sydd wedi cael eu taro waethaf. Os bydd Gweinidogion yn methu gwneud hyn mewn ffordd sy'n cydnabod o ddifrif yr anawsterau y maent yn eu hwynebu, fe gollir yr union wead sy'n gwneud ein trefi yr hyn ydynt. Rhaid inni warchod rhag creu trefi anghyfannedd yng Nghymru.
I'd like to thank you, Laura Anne, for giving me a minute of your time. Town centres in communities in my great constituency of Brecon and Radnorshire are at the very heart of the communities. It's where people gather in coffee shops, pubs, restaurants and shops for essential goods, where they recognise the great work of our high street. Rural Wales is home to some of the most deprived areas across the country. The GVA of mid Wales is the lowest out of the UK economic regions, at £17,628 per head in 2019. Reviving our town centres is vital to tackling poverty and increasing the wealth of families in places such as mid Wales. This must be done by investing properly in supporting private enterprise and entrepreneurship. If the Government gave out business loans to young entrepreneurs in the same way that it gives out student loans, I'm sure this country would be in a very, very different economic place. Diolch, Llywydd, and thank you, Laura.
Hoffwn ddiolch i chi, Laura Anne, am roi munud o'ch amser i mi. Mae canol trefi mewn cymunedau yn fy etholaeth wych ym Mrycheiniog a Sir Faesyfed yn ganolog i gymunedau. Dyma lle y bydd pobl yn ymgynnull mewn siopau coffi, tafarndai, bwytai a siopau ar gyfer nwyddau hanfodol, lle maent yn cydnabod gwaith gwych ein stryd fawr. Mae'r Gymru wledig yn gartref i rai o'r ardaloedd mwyaf difreintiedig ledled y wlad. Gwerth ychwanegol gros canolbarth Cymru yw'r isaf o ranbarthau economaidd y DU, sef £17,628 y pen yn 2019. Mae adfywio canol ein trefi yn hanfodol er mwyn mynd i'r afael â thlodi a chynyddu cyfoeth teuluoedd mewn mannau fel canolbarth Cymru. Rhaid gwneud hyn drwy fuddsoddi'n briodol i gefnogi mentrau preifat ac entrepreneuriaeth. Pe bai'r Llywodraeth yn rhoi benthyciadau busnes i entrepreneuriaid ifanc yn yr un modd ag y mae'n rhoi benthyciadau i fyfyrwyr, rwy'n siŵr y byddai'r wlad hon mewn sefyllfa economaidd wahanol iawn. Diolch, Lywydd, a diolch, Laura.
I'd like to thank Laura Anne Jones for her excellent contribution, and I don't think that we do talk about this enough. She recognised the value of our high streets, and how the initiatives—. We could look at business rates, car parking charges, new initiatives. It's a fact that—. Oh, I must declare an interest as a commercial properties owner. I beg your pardon, Llywydd. I had it written down here that I must declare an interest, and I went off on one.
So, the high street is changing, but we must embrace those changes. Now, I'm very pleased to represent the beautiful constituency of Aberconwy, where we have fabulous high streets. But, we have a problem, Deputy Minister, and that is the length of time that it takes for change of occupier, in terms of shop units. I have many letting agents who come to me, I have many tenants wanting to move into premises, and I have many landlords. If you want to change from class A1 to class A3—if you want to change a particular business—and you require planning permission, it can take up to nine or even 12 months to get that planning permission. So, my simple plea to you is: can you do something in our overstretched planning departments to ensure that they have the capacity to turn around planning applications very quickly, so that those properties are not lying empty in the high street, making our high streets look, as you rightly pointed out, Peter, more like ghost towns? It's crucial that we have a really speedy and fast-tracking planning process. Diolch, Llywydd.
Hoffwn ddiolch i Laura Anne Jones am ei chyfraniad rhagorol, ac nid wyf yn credu ein bod yn siarad digon am hyn. Cydnabu werth ein strydoedd mawr, a sut y mae'r mentrau—. Gallem edrych ar ardrethi busnes, taliadau parcio, mentrau newydd. Mae'n ffaith—. O, rhaid imi ddatgan buddiant fel perchennog eiddo masnachol. Mae'n ddrwg gennyf, Lywydd. Roeddwn wedi ysgrifennu yma fod yn rhaid imi ddatgan buddiant, ac anghofiais wneud hynny.
Felly, mae'r stryd fawr yn newid, ond rhaid inni groesawu'r newidiadau hynny. Nawr, rwy'n falch iawn o gynrychioli etholaeth hardd Aberconwy, lle mae gennym strydoedd mawr gwych. Ond mae gennym broblem, Ddirprwy Weinidog, sef yr amser y mae'n ei gymryd i newid meddiant unedau siopau. Mae gennyf lawer o asiantau gosod sy'n dod ataf, mae gennyf lawer o denantiaid sydd am symud i safleoedd, ac mae gennyf lawer o landlordiaid. Os ydych am newid o ddosbarth A1 i ddosbarth A3—os ydych am newid busnes penodol—a bod angen caniatâd cynllunio arnoch, gall gymryd hyd at naw mis neu hyd yn oed 12 mis i gael y caniatâd cynllunio hwnnw. Felly, fy apêl syml i chi yw: a allwch wneud rhywbeth yn ein hadrannau cynllunio sydd dan bwysau i sicrhau bod ganddynt gapasiti i droi ceisiadau cynllunio o gwmpas yn gyflym iawn, fel nad yw'r eiddo'n wag ar y stryd fawr, gan wneud i'n strydoedd mawr edrych, fel y dywedoch chi, Peter, yn debycach i drefi anghyfannedd? Mae'n hanfodol fod gennym broses gynllunio garlam a chyflym ar waith. Diolch, Lywydd.
So, if we cast our minds back to 2010, I was still at school, Corona was just but a beer, and the people of Carmarthen welcomed Debenhams to their town centre at St Catherine's Walk. However, only 11 short years later, in May of last year, it shut, leaving a 6000 sq m hole in the town centre. But thankfully, due to £18.5 million-worth of investment—£15 million from the UK Government—the former Debenhams shop is being redeveloped into a gym, a home for some of the county's museum collections, and a welcome centre for tourists into Wales's oldest town. This project is being developed by the local health board and the University of Wales Trinity Saint David. However, as Dr Edward Jones said, an economics lecturer from Bangor University,
'It's going to be a very different high street to what we're used to.'
So, let's not be afraid of this change. As projects such as the Carmarthen hub bring about necessary footfall into our town centres, into our high streets once again, let's welcome it and embrace the change it brings. Diolch.
Felly, os edrychwn yn ôl ar 2010, roeddwn yn dal i fod yn yr ysgol, dim ond cwrw oedd Corona, a chroesawodd pobl Caerfyrddin Debenhams i ganol eu tref yn Rhodfa'r Santes Catrin. Fodd bynnag, gwta 11 mlynedd yn ddiweddarach, ym mis Mai y llynedd, fe gaeodd, gan adael twll 6000 metr sgwâr yng nghanol y dref. Ond diolch byth, oherwydd gwerth £18.5 miliwn o fuddsoddiad—£15 miliwn gan Lywodraeth y DU—mae hen siop Debenhams yn cael ei hailddatblygu'n gampfa, yn gartref i rai o gasgliadau amgueddfeydd y sir, ac yn ganolfan groeso i dwristiaid i dref hynaf Cymru. Caiff y prosiect ei ddatblygu gan y bwrdd iechyd lleol a Phrifysgol Cymru y Drindod Dewi Sant. Fodd bynnag, fel y dywedodd Dr Edward Jones, darlithydd economeg ym Mhrifysgol Bangor,
'Mae'n mynd i fod yn stryd fawr wahanol iawn i'r hyn yr ydym wedi arfer ei weld.'
Felly, gadewch inni beidio â bod ofn y newid hwn. Gan fod prosiectau fel hyb Caerfyrddin yn arwain at ddenu'r nifer angenrheidiol o ymwelwyr i ganol ein trefi, ac ar ein strydoedd mawr unwaith eto, gadewch inni ei groesawu a chofleidio'r newid a ddaw yn ei sgil. Diolch.
Y Dirprwy Weinidog Newid Hinsawdd, nawr, i ymateb i'r ddadl—Lee Waters
The Deputy Minister for Climate Change, now, to reply to the debate—Lee Waters.
Thank you for tabling the motion and for the range of contributions. I think the contributions show that, despite a clear consensus on the problem, there is no real clear consensus on the solution, because this is complex. There is a whole range of forces coming together. This is fundamentally about a changing marketplace, and James Evans in his contribution championed the role of the market in accelerating change, and we should also recognise that the market has also brought about many of the symptoms described by Members. The rise of supermarkets, I think, is one of the most significant forces to have shaped our town centres, when you think, inside the supermarket now, they sell almost everything that used to be sold by shops some 30 years ago in the town centre. The move, then, out of town, and then the move online have all come together to make town centres across the UK shadows of their former selves. And if it was as simple as Laura Anne Jones set out in her speech, as an issue of local political leadership, then you would expect to see a very different picture across the UK, but we do not. There are very similar trends right across the UK, and in fact right across the western world, as these forces have all been rippling their way through.
We have recently published a set of reports, one by Audit Wales and another that I commissioned from Manchester university's Professor Karel Williams, 'Small Towns, Big Issues', which sets down the challenge but also says we need a complex, joined-up intervention to tackle the range of issues at play here, and we are now working through that. I've pulled together a group of experts to go through this report in detail, to understand how we can operationalise this, and Janet Finch-Saunders points out one of the issues, which is around the issue of the resource for planning departments. That is no doubt a factor. There is no simple answer to that, because resource is tight. It's one of the reasons why we've been supporting corporate joint committees to be able to pool resource and expertise across a region, to help with common services. They're also looking at the issue of the role of landlords and rents, which clearly is a constraint for many.
The changing shape of a town centre and the fact that town centres, often, are surrounded by a 'doughnut', as Karel Williams describes, of low-income neighbourhoods, are driving a different cash flow into the town centre, whereas out-of-town is attracting higher income customers, which is in turn driving those type of shops and creating a spiral of decline. And we're seeing in those out-of-town shopping centres now an increasing hollowing out of empty units right across out-of-town shopping centres, across America and Europe, so these aren't forces that we face alone. And I think we do need to rethink the role of retail, both out of town and in town, and, as Sam Kurtz said in his contribution, the example of the 'town centre first' approach that we have championed in Carmarthen, of bringing public services into town centres to give footfall and to put services rather than just retail in the centre of where the shops and the town centres see their role.
So, there are definitely changing dynamics at play. Many of these are complex. There is not a simple answer to a lot of these, and, as I say, we have set out, through an analysis by an independent academic, and now, through creating what they call an alliance for change, a commitment to work through these. But I think there are spots of optimism, and the example of Newport, I think, is one. I think Laura Anne Jones was overly harsh on Newport; no doubt it has struggled, as lots of towns have struggled. There has been some £30 million of Welsh Government investment in Newport. But I think the new revived market is an example of where the council has worked dynamically alongside the Welsh Government and the private sector, and we are hoping to see next month the opening of the new Newport market, with over 100 traders, a food court, a bar, workspaces, a gym and a rooftop garden, and I think that will create a positive dynamic that will attract people in and hopefully have a ripple effect.
But there's no point in kidding ourselves that there are either partisan or simple solutions at hand, and I think it behoves us all to try and work together to identify some things that can be done. If it was as simple as simply rejigging business rates, then we'd have seen a reaction before now, because we have put significant support in for business rates across Wales for some time and it hasn't made a great deal of difference, to be honest. So, the search for simple answers, I think, is going to be a futile one; we need to recognise the complexity of this, recognise the multiplicity of forces at play and try and work together through building alliances for change in all sectors across the country to bring about a fresh purpose for our town centres.
Diolch am gyflwyno'r cynnig ac am yr amrywiaeth o gyfraniadau. Er bod consensws clir ynghylch y broblem, credaf fod y cyfraniadau'n dangos nad oes consensws clir go iawn ynghylch yr ateb, oherwydd mae hyn yn gymhleth. Mae ystod eang o rymoedd yn dod at ei gilydd. Mae'n ymwneud yn sylfaenol â marchnad sy'n newid, ac roedd James Evans yn ei gyfraniad yn cefnogi rôl y farchnad yn cyflymu newid, a dylem hefyd gydnabod bod y farchnad wedi arwain at lawer o'r symptomau a ddisgrifiwyd gan yr Aelodau. Credaf mai'r cynnydd mewn archfarchnadoedd yw un o'r grymoedd mwyaf sylweddol sydd wedi siapio canol ein trefi, pan feddyliwch fod archfarchnadoedd bellach yn gwerthu bron bopeth yr arferid ei werthu mewn siopau tua 30 mlynedd yn ôl yng nghanol y dref. Mae symud i'r tu allan i'r dref felly, a symud ar-lein wedyn, i gyd wedi dod at ei gilydd i wneud canol trefi ar draws y DU yn llawer llai atyniadol na'r hyn yr arferent fod. A phe bai mor syml ag y nododd Laura Anne Jones yn ei haraith, yn fater o arweinyddiaeth wleidyddol leol, byddech yn disgwyl gweld darlun gwahanol iawn ledled y DU, ond nid ydym yn gweld hynny. Ceir tueddiadau tebyg iawn ledled y DU, ac ar draws y byd gorllewinol mewn gwirionedd, wrth i'r grymoedd hyn oll donni trwodd.
Rydym wedi cyhoeddi cyfres o adroddiadau yn ddiweddar, un gan Archwilio Cymru ac un arall a gomisiynais gan yr Athro Karel Williams o brifysgol Manceinion, 'Small Towns, Big Issues', sy'n nodi'r her ond hefyd yn dweud bod angen ymyrraeth gymhleth, gydgysylltiedig arnom i fynd i'r afael â'r ystod o ffactorau sydd ar waith yma, ac rydym yn gweithio drwyddo yn awr. Rwyf wedi galw grŵp o arbenigwyr ynghyd i fynd drwy'r adroddiad hwn yn fanwl, i ddeall sut y gallwn weithredu hyn, ac mae Janet Finch-Saunders yn nodi un o'r problemau, sy'n ymwneud ag adnoddau ar gyfer adrannau cynllunio. Mae'n siŵr bod hynny'n ffactor. Nid oes ateb syml i hynny, oherwydd mae'r adnoddau'n gyfyngedig. Mae'n un o'r rhesymau pam ein bod wedi cefnogi cyd-bwyllgorau corfforaethol i allu cyfuno adnoddau ac arbenigedd ar draws rhanbarth, i helpu gyda gwasanaethau cyffredin. Maent hefyd yn edrych ar rôl landlordiaid a rhenti, sy'n amlwg yn cyfyngu ar lawer o bobl.
Mae ffurf newidiol canol tref a'r ffaith bod canol trefi, yn aml, wedi'u hamgylchynu gan 'doesen', fel y mae Karel Williams yn ei ddisgrifio, o gymdogaethau incwm isel, yn gyrru llif arian gwahanol i mewn i ganol y dref, tra bod y tu allan i'r dref yn denu cwsmeriaid incwm uwch, sydd yn ei dro yn gyrru'r mathau hynny o siopau ac yn creu dirywiad cynyddol. Ac rydym yn gweld niferoedd cynyddol o unedau gwag yn y canolfannau siopa y tu allan i'r dref bellach, ledled America ac Ewrop, felly nid yw'r rhain yn rymoedd yr ydym yn eu hwynebu ar ein pen ein hunain. A chredaf fod angen inni ailystyried rôl manwerthu, y tu allan i'r dref ac yn y dref, ac fel y dywedodd Sam Kurtz yn ei gyfraniad, esiampl y dull 'canol tref yn gyntaf' a hyrwyddwyd gennym yng Nghaerfyrddin, a dod â gwasanaethau cyhoeddus i ganol trefi er mwyn cynyddu niferoedd ymwelwyr a chynnig gwasanaethau yn hytrach na manwerthu'n unig ynghanol y mannau lle mae'r siopau a chanol trefi'n gweld eu rôl.
Felly, mae deinameg newidiol ar waith yn bendant. Mae llawer o'r rhain yn gymhleth. Ni cheir ateb syml i lawer ohonynt, ac fel y dywedaf, rydym wedi nodi, drwy ddadansoddiad gan academydd annibynnol, ac yn awr, drwy greu'r hyn y maent yn ei alw'n gynghrair dros newid, ymrwymiad i weithio drwy'r rhain. Ond rwy'n credu bod ychydig o le i optimistiaeth, ac rwy'n meddwl bod enghraifft Casnewydd yn un. Credaf fod Laura Anne Jones yn rhy llym ar Gasnewydd; mae'n siŵr ei bod wedi ei chael hi'n anodd, fel y mae llawer o drefi wedi ei chael hi'n anodd. Cafwyd oddeutu £30 miliwn o fuddsoddiad gan Lywodraeth Cymru yng Nghasnewydd. Ond rwy'n credu bod y farchnad newydd sydd wedi'i hadfywio yn enghraifft o lle mae'r cyngor wedi gweithio'n ddeinamig ochr yn ochr â Llywodraeth Cymru a'r sector preifat, ac rydym yn gobeithio gweld agor marchnad newydd Casnewydd y mis nesaf, gyda dros 100 o fasnachwyr, llys bwyd, bar, gweithleoedd, campfa a gardd ar y to, a chredaf y bydd hynny'n creu deinameg cadarnhaol a fydd yn denu pobl i mewn ac yn arwain at effaith ganlyniadol, gobeithio.
Ond nid oes diben twyllo ein hunain fod atebion pleidiol neu syml wrth law, a chredaf ei bod yn ddyletswydd arnom i gyd i geisio cydweithio i nodi rhai pethau y gellir eu gwneud. Pe bai mor syml ag ail-lunio ardrethi busnes yn unig, byddem wedi gweld ymateb cyn hyn, oherwydd rydym wedi rhoi cefnogaeth sylweddol i ardrethi busnes ledled Cymru ers peth amser ac nid yw wedi gwneud llawer o wahaniaeth, a bod yn onest. Felly, rwy'n credu mai ofer yw chwilio am atebion syml; mae angen inni gydnabod cymhlethdod hyn, cydnabod y grymoedd lluosog sydd ar waith a cheisio cydweithio drwy adeiladu cynghreiriau ar gyfer newid ym mhob sector ledled y wlad er mwyn sicrhau pwrpas newydd i ganol ein trefi.
Diolch i’r Dirprwy Weinidog. Diolch am y ddadl fer, a dyna ddod â ni at ddiwedd ein gwaith heddiw.
I thank the Deputy Minister, and I thank you for that short debate. That brings today's proceedings to a close.
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 18:11.
The meeting ended at 18:11.