National Assembly for Wales

I call Members to order. Before anyone else does so this afternoon, may I heartily congratulate the Welsh national football team on qualifying for the Euro 2020 championship? And I’m sure we are all looking forward to the summer of 2020 already. So, many congratulations to the team.

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd, and the first question is from Russell George.

Through forward planning, we aim to prevent disruption due to adverse weather. This year, for example, we are investing more than £51 million in flood defence and coastal erosion risk management.

Thank you for your answer, Minister. No doubt you will agree with me that we are seeing the changes in our climate due to climate change. And I would certainly say additional funding does need to be put in to dredging our rivers and water courses, which used to be undertaken on a more frequent basis some years ago, and also with additional funding for local authorities to carry out cleaning of culverts and drains. I would say that the pressure we are seeing placed on local authorities does mean that they do not have the resources that they once had to undertake some of this work, along with works on the road network, which also local authorities are responsible for. And I wonder whether you would commit to putting additional financial resources into both of these areas, which will, I would suggest, help alleviate flooding to many thousands of properties that are increasingly being put at greater risk of being flooded.

Well, Russell George is right that the risk of flooding is becoming increasingly prevalent in our communities, which is why we're taking a preventative position, as far as we possibly can, by committing to invest more than £350 million in flooding defence and coastal erosion risk management over the lifetime of this Government. And I think it's worth recognising that we're allocating record levels of funding in this area, and our spending here in Wales, per capita, continues to outstrip English investment. So, in Wales, we spend £17.20 per person, versus only £14.05 per person in England. But I appreciate completely the pressures that local government are under in terms of continuing to fulfil their local roles, in terms of the maintenance of the systems, which is why we're committed to giving local government the best possible settlement in our budget for the forthcoming financial year.

Russell George also mentioned the importance of ensuring that trunk roads are particularly well cared for during harsh winters. And in the first instance, those additional costs will be managed through the rest of the motorway and trunk road budget, through the reprioritisation of spend to the end of the year. In some cases, we do have a legal duty to intervene, and funding would obviously not prevent a safety-related response. And, obviously, alongside the flooding issues, there are issues of ice on the roads as well. So, I can confirm that, for this winter, we've replaced 10 gritters, to increase resilience in our communities.

I think there are serious problems with flooding. Minister, would you agree that you're not going to solve the problem by just spending money and putting up higher and higher walls; the solution has got to be to find places for the water to go. And I talk often about the one on the River Tawe, where the water floods into a flood area, which is just land. Surely, if you're going to spend money, spend money on areas that we can flood, and flood successfully, without doing any damage, rather than building higher and higher walls, until such time as we keep on spending more and more of our budget on making walls higher and higher, but, as the water levels rise, we end up with the situation that there's water still coming over the walls.

Mike Hedges is right that we have to invest in a range of solutions and preventative measures. So, an example—I think a very good example—is the RainScape initiative in Llanelli, which I know the Minister with responsibility for environment and rural affairs is particularly enthusiastic about. I know that she's considering the future sustainable drainage systems legislation and what that might mean in terms of the introduction of that piece of work. And again, if we're looking at building new housing estates, for example, we need to be looking at ways to manage the water on those estates. So, I know that this is an issue that the Minister's very alive to, and it's not just about building those high walls, as Mike Hedges suggested, but actually finding other ways in which to ensure that water drains off safely.

Eighty per cent of the suppliers appointed to the National Procurement Service's fresh food framework are Wales based. Over 45 organisations use the agreement, with spend on fresh produce amounting to over £6 million per annum.

Thank you, Minister, for that useful information. The real food and farming conference I attended last week was very enthusiastic about the announcement that Carmarthenshire public services board had been awarded £100,000 from the foundational economy initiative, and that is precisely in order to improve their food supply chains so that they can procure local food.

I'm fully aware that somewhere like Caerphilly has been in the vanguard on ensuring that local businesses get a fair chance at bidding for local contracts. For example, there's a dairy producer that started off by just procuring to two or three schools and is now delivering services to five local authorities and a health board. And so, it seems to me that these are great examples of what can be done but that we're quite a long way from where we need to be in ensuring that the public pound is being spent on local businesses as well as ensuring that more fresh food is being served to our children and people who are in hospital. 

Yes, I think the example that Jenny Rathbone gave of Caerphilly is an excellent example of what can be achieved if people think imaginatively about the local opportunities. I'm really pleased that the Carmarthenshire public services board has been awarded that £100,000 to improve the procurement of local food in the area, and that's just one of 52 experimental initiatives across Wales receiving funding as part of the £4.5 million foundational economy challenge fund. But it is really important to recognise that whilst these are experimental, if they work, then I know that the Minister, Lee Waters, is extremely keen that the projects will then be scaled up to ensure that they make a difference across Wales elsewhere.

Another great example underneath the foundational economy challenge fund is Môn Shellfish, and, in partnership with Coleg Llandrillo Menai and Partneriaeth Ogwen, they are receiving £100,000 to explore creating local markets for shellfish. The Welsh Government commercial innovation team are also analysing the public sector food spend profile, and they've identified several other potential further opportunities for similar interventions, and the viability of that activity is currently being explored with public sector partners. I would be very keen to share the learning of that with Jenny Rathbone.

Value Wales state that every 1 per cent increase in procurement levels in Wales will create 2,000 jobs. So, the gains are clear. Now, given that Scotland awards 75 per cent of Scottish contracts to Scottish firms, what is the Welsh Government doing to learn from that experience and deliver a similar, much-needed boost to the Welsh economy?

So, Welsh Government has been working really hard to try and ensure that our procurement does meet the needs and provides opportunities for businesses and suppliers in Wales. So, Wales-based suppliers now win 52 per cent of the annual £6.467 billion procurement expenditure. Clearly, we want to do much more, but I think that it is important to recognise the improvement that we've made since the baseline of 35 per cent in 2004. 

I think that we can look to Sell2Wales. They show that a number of contract awards through that site go to Welsh suppliers, and, actually, the number through that site has more than tripled since 2014-15. So, that now stands at 84 per cent compared to the baseline of 25 per cent. So, we are making some real progress in this area, but that's not to say that we're complacent. I'm working with my colleague Lee Waters on the foundational economy and looking to see what we can do through the public services boards to ensure that we procure more locally through those boards, and we hope to have more to say on this very shortly.

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Minister, can you confirm that the Government is using the period of delay that we have now in terms of the budgetary process to consider how to increase local authority funding, and by how much?

Thank you very much for raising that issue. I had the opportunity just this morning to meet the local authority finance sub-group, alongside the local government Minister, to explore the issues relating to the budget this year. They share our frustration, as I know that Members in the Assembly do, about the delay in terms of publishing the budget. What I will say is that, over the course of the summer and since the spending review announcement was made in terms of the additional £593 million to Welsh Government for the next financial year, I've been working really closely with colleagues across Government. We've developed what we think is a really good budget. It prioritises health, as we said we would, and it also seeks to give local authorities the best possible settlement. We had a discussion today that recognised that, in the interim period between publishing our draft budget and our final budget, there is more than likely going to be a budget from the UK Government, which will obviously have knock-on implications for us, but we'll maintain that effort to give the best possible settlement to local authorities.

I will return to the funds likely to come from the UK Government in just a moment. May I ask whether you agree with the principle of invest to save? It is clear that investing through local government can make significant savings and can improve people’s quality of life. Investing in housing through local government can improve health, investment in social services can take pressure off the health service, and investment in sports facilities can also be very successful as a preventative tool in preventing obesity, and so on. If you do believe in those principles, then why has the Government failed to prioritise local government sufficiently in recent budgets given the central role of local government in that preventative process?

I think Welsh Government and local authorities have had a real difficult job over recent years in the face of ever-declining budgets, so, year on year, looking to areas where we can cut rather than looking to areas where we can invest. But, nonetheless, I think Welsh Government has worked closely with local authorities to try and focus money in those areas where we can achieve the best preventative spend. So, the work that Vaughan Gething has been doing through the health department in terms of supporting social services has been really important as a preventative measure, looking to see how we can support people through the intermediate care fund to avoid hospital admissions where they are unnecessary, and then to get people out of hospital as quickly as possible when they're ready to come home. That's a great example, I think, of preventing people's needs from escalating and from getting to a point where they're more expensive, yes, for the public purse, but they also have a detrimental impact on those individuals' lives. In terms of invest-to-save itself, we have an important invest-to-save scheme. I think we might have the opportunity in other questions this afternoon to explore that, and I'm happy to expand on that if the Member wishes.

You talk a good game there in terms of expressing the importance of the preventative agenda. The point I'm making is that that hasn't been reflected in the actions of Government through budgets, and in taking decisions not to prioritise local government in a way that we believe you could have. Now, nobody is surprised to see the Labour and Conservative leaders promising a post-election bonanza—that magic money tree does tend to appear around this time in the electoral cycle—but how you spend that money, if there is additional money coming to Wales, will be vitally, vitally important. And can you not understand that people are lacking faith in Welsh Government's ability and willingness to act in a proactive, preventative manner, simply by looking at the evidence of how you have budgeted in recent years? Yes, talking up the preventative agenda, but not following that up with real investment through local government in ways that can make significant savings and improve people's lives down the line.

Well, I would disagree with the way in which our recent budgets have been portrayed in that way. I know the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales has been really keen to provide the maximum challenge to Welsh Government in terms of prevention, and she's asked every single one of the Welsh Government Ministers to demonstrate what each of them are doing in the area of prevention within their own portfolios.

Just in the example of housing and regeneration, we've got the investment in the Welsh housing quality standard. Now, 93 per cent of social housing has now completed and come up to that standard, and we know how important that is in terms of preventative spend to ensure that people live in a safe, warm home. The work that we're doing in terms of independent living, aids and adaptations; the work that's going into the innovative housing programme, which is supporting decarbonisation to ensure that we're building the right houses for the future, which aren't going to be homes that are cold, but which are going to be homes that people are able to afford; the work we are doing on modern methods of construction; the integrated care fund capital programme, which is ensuring that we have housing-led solutions to social care issues; the homelessness action group, again, doing lots of great preventative work in that space; and our regeneration strategy, which is looking to ensure that we have communities that are resilient. Those are just a few examples within one small area of one portfolio that demonstrate the focus that we are putting on prevention. 

Conservative spokesperson, Nick Ramsay. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, can you update us on the funding being made available for the rural affairs portfolio for the rural development programme? 

The rural development programme provides much needed investment in our environment, our farming and rural communities, and this investment is very much about maximising the way in which we manage our ecosystems, ensuring that we use energy efficiently and that we reduce our greenhouse gases in Wales. So I can confirm that to date Wales has drawn down 45 per cent of our EU funding from the RDP, and that is comparable with other EU member states. At the end of 2018, EU member states had on average drawn down around 42 per cent of their funding, so we are slightly ahead and I can confirm that we have no plans to send back any unused money to the EU.

We are making good progress, so, at a project level, a total of £664.9 million has been committed, representing around 80 per cent of programme funds, and plans are in place to achieve the full commitment of the programme by the end of 2020 and full spend by the end of the n+3 period. 

Thank you, Minister. I'm pleased to hear that you don't intend to send any of that money back. I've asked you the question today because you have, in your time, worn hats as both rural affairs Minister and also obviously now finance Minister. As you'll be aware, and as you've just said, the rural development funding programme has been providing support across a wide range of areas for a long length of time, not least to farmers, but also rural medium-sized businesses and tourism ventures, and you mentioned energy as well.

At the outset, the RDP was meant to bring about transformational change in farming—that was the term used by the Welsh Government—but there have been a number of concerns, particularly recently, that it's fallen short of this. I understand that only 41 per cent of RDP funds for the programme period have been spent up until the end of August 2019. Perhaps you can confirm or otherwise on that. Can you update us on any discussions you've had with the Minister for rural affairs about how we got into this situation and how the spending situation may be improved in future?

As I mentioned, to date Wales has drawn down 45 per cent of our EU funding for the RDP, and that compares to 42 per cent for the average across other member states. That really is a feature more of the way in which European funding works in terms of the profiling of those projects over a number of years, and the full spend has to be achieved three years after the closure of the programme. So the current period would be 2023, by which time we would have to have spent all of the money that has come to us. So that 42 per cent, or 45 per cent as it is now, doesn't suggest that there is a small amount of money that has been spent; it just reflects the spending profile of the particular programme.

I underestimated the amount with my 41 per cent, so I'm sure 45 per cent is more accurate. But leaving aside the reasons, some of which you detailed in terms of how the European funding works, that is still only 45 per cent at this juncture and I know that it's not just me with concerns about this; I know that members of the farming community have also expressed concerns. With Brexit well under way many farmers have been holding off from making investment decisions, so funding such as RDP has had an important role to play in keeping farming sustainable. 

Many farmers, Minister, and many in our rural communities feel that an opportunity has been lost here. I appreciate that it might have been lost in other parts of the world as well, but they certainly feel that the opportunity has been lost and that the focus has been taken off that transformational change part of the agenda, which was there early on. It certainly seems to have been watered down by modifications to the plan and changes to the co-financing obligation that were there at the outset. If you look at sustainable production grants, they appear to have been oversubscribed, and there's been a lack of SPG windows.

Given that farming is the backbone of the Welsh economy and a huge part of our cultural identity here in Wales, and so important to the large part of Wales that's in our large rural areas, do you agree that the Welsh Government must now take the opportunity, get back to that message of delivering transformational change for our farming industry, do this as a matter of urgency, so that Welsh farmers and those in our rural communities can be confident of the sustainability of their industry in the future?

I think the comments that Nick Ramsey has made this afternoon just recognise how vital European funding is for our farming communities, and we've only been talking at this point about the rural development programme, but, of course, if you look at the basic payment scheme and the amount of money that that ploughs into rural enterprises and farming businesses, I think that we can recognise the important role that it plays and how we should be concerned about what comes next, because we've been really clear that we would expect the UK Government to ensure that Wales isn't a penny worse off—I know that this is something that's shared right across the Chamber—as a result of leaving the EU, and that we should have full flexibility to manage those funds here in Wales.

But I think it's really important to recognise that neither the UK Government's guarantee or a withdrawal agreement would provide the long-term replacements for EU funding. They would cover substantially all of our existing programmes for the short term, yes, but in terms of the longer term, unless there's progress on putting replacement funding on the table, then we won't be in a position to manage any new spending from December 2020 for the common agricultural policy pillar 1, and from January 2021 for other funds. So, I think it's really important that whoever is in Government in the UK following the general election provides us with that absolute clarity and certainty on the way forward, to ensure that we can support our rural economy and our farming businesses in the way that Nick Ramsey has said this afternoon.

Brexit Party spokesperson, Mark Reckless.

Will the finance Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's relationship with Gavin Woodhouse, Afan Valley Limited and Northern Powerhouse Developments Limited?

It's my understanding that we have provided no funding to the individual or the company that Mark Reckless refers to.

The economy Minister visited Gavin Woodhouse's Afan valley project and starred in a promotional video for it. The project has now stalled after administrators were appointed. Since Dai Lloyd questioned you about this in July, the administrators have stated there were signs that Gavin Woodhouse's hotel projects were a Ponzi scheme.

I'm sure we're all pleased to hear that no Welsh Government funding was in the event released to Woodhouse entities, despite prior reports that a £0.5 million grant was offered. However, one way Ponzi schemes work is by burnishing a positive reputation to persuade investors to part with their money. Do you accept that Welsh Government's public support for Mr Woodhouse played a part in burnishing his reputation? And does the Welsh Government feel any sense of responsibility to those who've lost money by investing in Welsh projects associated with Gavin Woodhouse?

No, I don't recognise the picture that the Member seeks to try and paint this afternoon. I've been very clear, as I was in my response to Dai Lloyd several months ago, that Welsh Government provided no funding for any of the schemes related to Mr Woodhouse.

Despite cuts to our budget, we continue to invest in public services, businesses and communities in the south Wales Valleys. In Merthyr, we are investing £225 million for improvements to Prince Charles Hospital, and will invest close to £750 million to take forward the next phase of the south Wales metro project.

Thank you for that answer, Minister. I recently visited Elite Paper Solutions in Merthyr Tydfil, who are creating valuable jobs, supported by the Welsh Government. I also attended an event at Idris Davies School in Merthyr; it's a fantastic twenty-first century school in the upper Rhymney valley. And I was with the First Minister to visit the offices of Merthyr Valleys Homes, and to hear about the millions of pounds of Welsh Government money that they've invested in housing in my constituency.

I know that communities across the south Wales Valleys have similar stories to tell as a result of investment from this Welsh Government—record investment has been delivered despite a decade of Tory cuts. So, as the Welsh Government prepares its budget for 2021, and acknowledging the priorities that you have already set out, can you assure me that, within those priorities, meeting the needs of our Valleys communities will remain a key?

Thank you to Dawn Bowden for raising this issue and for highlighting some of the excellent initiatives and excellent investments that Welsh Government is making in the community that she represents. I'm really pleased to see that she's had the opportunity to visit so many of them. For example, Elite Paper Solutions, I think, is really exciting in terms of what's possible through our Better Jobs Closer to Home approach, and I want to see much more of that kind of work being done to support our procurement across Wales as much as anything else. 

I think it is important to recognise that the recent spending round doesn't turn the page on austerity, as the UK Government has suggested. Our budget for 2021 will be 2 per cent lower, or £300 million less, than in real terms in 2010-11. But, that doesn't mean for a second that we're not ambitious for Wales and ambitious for the Valleys in terms of what can be achieved. So, I hope that, when we are able to publish the draft budget following the election, there'll be opportunities to recognise further investment that we'll be making in the community that Dawn Bowden represents. 

Caerphilly council announced recently that free swimming sessions for people aged over 60 had been cut after your Government cut funding for the free swimming initiative by 50 per cent. Minister, do you accept that your inadequate local government funding settlement in councils such as Caerphilly is putting Welsh Government priorities, such as the 'Strategy for Older People in Wales', at risk?

The changes to the free swimming scheme across Wales came about as a result of the work that Welsh Government asked Sport Wales to do in terms of commissioning an independent review to look at how well the free swimming scheme was meeting its objectives, particularly in terms of offering older people opportunities to swim, but also in terms of ensuring that young people, particularly in more deprived communities, were able to undertake swimming opportunities as well. What the review found was that only 6 per cent of older people were taking up the option for free swimming, but it also found, really worryingly, that young people in poorer communities were not taking up the opportunities. So, the review itself seeks to try and change that in terms of ensuring that more young people do get the opportunity, whilst at the same time ensuring that every community does have the opportunity to—or every local authority does provide at least some free swimming for people who are over 60. If Mohammad Asghar wants to write to me with the examples that he has in terms of how the change has impacted on individuals within the community he represents, then I would be certainly keen to explore them with the Deputy Minister.

Given that you want to create better jobs, closer to home, and most people in my constituency are agreed that there's a desperate need to provide well-paid jobs in the Rhondda, it's one of the things that most often comes up on my street surgeries, but people are not convinced that you're going to deliver on that. So, bearing that in mind, can you tell us what is the budget for the Valleys taskforce, and how much of this budget, if there is one, is allocated for stimulating economic activity in Rhondda—specifically the Rhondda?

The Welsh Government is working across Welsh Government to deliver the aims of the Valleys taskforce, so you'll see actions within that taskforce plan that relate to housing, you'll see actions that relate to transport, and other items as well. But what I can say in terms of the specifics of the plan is that the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport has undertaken a stocktake of the delivery plan and he will be making a statement next week, I understand, to the Assembly. But part of that work does include a review of the £25 million strategic hub budget, for example, and he's discussing examples of best practice with Valleys taskforce stakeholders there.

There are a number of other examples across different portfolios as to how we are investing in the Rhondda, but it isn't the case that we'd present our information on a constituency basis as to how those investments are being undertaken. But, examples in transport—because I think that was one area that was being considered by the Member—we're developing integrated transport master plans, working with local authorities in Merthyr, Caerphilly and Rhondda, and we've allocated over £600,000 of funding to commission those feasibility and design studies, because we know the importance of good transport connections in terms of helping people get to good employment.

Minister, the greatest barrier to improving the economic prosperity of the Swansea and Neath Valleys is a lack of infrastructure. Despite the two decades of EU structural funds, people in my region still have no reliable transport. What will your Government do in the next 12 months to improve road and rail links in my region so my constituents can get to work on time? Will your budget be giving priority to public transport infrastructure? [Interruption.] Ignorant. [Interruption.] Yes, you are.

We don't want personal abuse shouted across the Chamber. So, if we can stop doing that, please. [Interruption.] Calling another Assembly Member 'ignorant' is not acceptable, Alun Davies. And I'm going to ask the Minister to respond. Please stop it. 

Welsh Government is really keen to support the idea of the Swansea bay metro, which I think is something that the Member is particularly interested in, in terms of how it can provide a more integrated response to the transport needs of people living in the Swansea bay and wider areas. So, Welsh Government has provided some funding to undertake a scoping exercise to see what would be possible. Obviously, that's a longer term vision for the area, so we need to be looking to see what we could do in the more immediate term in terms of supporting our bus services, for example. So, there's quite exciting work that I know Ken Skates is keen to take forward in terms of improving the power of local authorities in terms of bus services, to ensure that the services in those areas are better able to respond to the needs of local people. But we're very much alive to the importance of public transport, not least because of the pollution incidents that we do see in our particular part of the world as well.

Rhianon Passmore is not here to ask question 4 [OAQ54716]. Question 5, Lynne Neagle.

We fully recognise the importance of preventative spend, and it's been considered by all Ministers in their budget planning and will be reflected in our 2020-21 budget. In terms of last year, we invested, for example, £15 million in mental health services, including the new whole-school approach to mental health and well-being.

Thank you for that answer, Minister. You'll be aware that it has been a constant theme of the budget scrutiny by the Children, Young People and Education Committee that the Welsh Government needs to do more in terms of preventative spend, and, indeed, in terms of the scrutiny of the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee. And the figures that you've referred to—and I heard your answer to Llyr Gruffydd as well—are small numbers in comparison with the whole budget that you're playing with. Would you agree with me that there is much more that we could be doing in terms of prioritising preventative spend, and do you also agree with me that the most important preventative spend any Government can make is in the education of our children and young people?

Yes, I recognise the points that Lynne Neagle has made, and that's one of the reasons why Welsh Government was so happy to acknowledge, recognise and accept all of the recommendations in the recent report that looked at school funding and is already starting to take forward some of that work in terms of the work that the leading education economist Luke Sibieta is doing in terms of the analysis of total spend in schools to ensure that we are allocating our spend to education in the way that is getting the most for those children and young people.

The education main expenditure group at the moment stands at £1.7 billion for 2019-20, and then we would obviously recognise that the vast majority of funding for schools, of course, goes through the regional grants straight to local authorities. But I think there are important things we can do to support children and young people alongside that as well—so, the work that we're doing to expand the food and fun programme throughout the summer, to ensure that children and young people don't fall backwards, compared to their peers, in some communities over the course of the summer, and also doubling the investment in the pupil development grant access fund to £5.1 million. I think it's really important, again, in terms of supporting families and trying to put more money into the pockets of those individual families. And taken together with the pupil development grant, it means that we're investing over £98 million in 2019-20 to support some of our most disadvantaged learners. That's important for exactly the reasons that Lynne Neagle said, because investing in children at the youngest age is the most important preventative spend that you can make, because putting children on the right path and ensuring that they have the opportunities to fulfil all of their potential is the best way to ensure that they have good lives ahead of them.

I listened to the numbers that you have just laid out for Lynne Neagle. They sound big and they sound great, they sound like there's an awful lot of money, but the reality is: is it enough money for the amount of requirement that there is? One of the concerns I have is about how we are targeting our preventative spend in the health sector.

I asked a question along these lines last week to the First Minister. I asked it again yesterday, and the Minister for Health and Social Services took First Minister's questions. I do not see, and I do not have a sense, that there is a sea change in the planning for the health budget—that the health spend should start to, if you like, go on a different trajectory and go towards primary care, community care services and preventative spend. When you meet with groups and cross-party groups where you hear that social prescribing is being knocked out of the window because the facilities aren't open—. There seems to be no joined-up thinking that says from health to social services and to local authorities, 'Let's keep this swimming pool open—that's a good social prescribing area. Let's keep these play parks open, and let's do this and let's do that.' You talk the talk, but there's little evidence that the funding is walking the walk.

What can you do or say to reassure us, rather than just say—? I appreciate you've got these pots of money, but they're not growing in real terms. It's about the whole cultural imperative that says that what we need to do is spend our money on stopping people from being unwell and helping them so that they do not, in the end, end up in hospitals, long-term care, with chronic conditions.

I think that there's always an important balance to be achieved in terms of the preventative agenda and then actually dealing with the health issues that are presenting themselves to the health service today. I know that Angela Burns recognises that, actually, the preventative agenda is very much a longer term kind of agenda, and it takes a long time to turn the ship that we've already got at the moment.

I think that work we are doing across Government—so, the extra investment we're putting into active travel is really important. So, this year alone we'll be increasing the budget for active travel to £34.5 million, and then £30 million further again in 2020-1, because we know the important role that physical exercise and just being out and about in the fresh air can have in terms of your physical well-being and your mental well-being.

So, it is important that we work in that joined-up way across Government, and that's one of the reasons why we've taken the approach this year of looking at our budget through the lens of those eight priority areas. So, mental health is there, early years is there, housing is there—all of those I think have a really, really strong preventative focus. I hope that when Members see the narrative that goes alongside our budget, which we'll be publishing on 16 December, they will get a really clear flavour of the preventative work that is going on across Government.

The National Procurement Service promotes Welsh public sector procurement collaboration to deliver a good deal for Wales. It saves time and money, supports the Welsh economy and embraces the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015.

Thank you for that. Minister, the Welsh Local Government Association guidance document on European Union and public procurement is an interesting read. It states that the EU sets out the laws under which public procurement contracts must be awarded. The laws are designed to open up the EU's market to competition, to promote free movement of goods and services and to prevent binational policies. Does the Welsh Government now welcome the new opportunities that Brexit will provide for Welsh businesses?

Well, if there are new opportunities for Welsh businesses in terms of Brexit, I'm sure they're well overshadowed by the disadvantages that Brexit will bring for Welsh businesses. But, we will take any opportunity to ensure that if there are new opportunities that are opened up to us, then we will certainly take them. But, in the round, I think it's fair to say, as most commentators and most people who've done analysis of this will say, that the overarching and overbearing impact on business won't be positive.

Throughout the year I meet regularly with ministerial colleagues to discuss a range of financial matters, including the Minister for Economy and Transport in respect of priorities for investment within his portfolio. I recently announced an additional £87 million for the economy and transport portfolio as part of our capital investment.

Thank you very much for the reply, Minister, but work to widen the Heads of the Valleys road between Gilwern and Brynmawr began in 2014 and was due to end next month. In April it was announced that the completion date had been put back to 2020 and would cost an extra £54 million. Now we know and we hear that this project will not be completed until the end of next year. But it's claimed that this will not have an impact on the overall cost of the scheme.

Minister, have you discussed this matter with the Minister for Economy and Transport? And can you confirm that this delay will not in fact increase the funding required to complete this scheme, above the £324 million it's already expected to cost?

I can say the Welsh Government and Costain are reviewing the project, with a view to completing the project at the end of 2020 now. And the Minister for Economy and Transport did make that statement in April to the Assembly, and the situation that he outlined in April remains the position today.

He did say in that statement that it would now be 2020 before the dualling of the section would be completed, and section 2 involves the online widening of 8 km within the steep-sided and environmentally sensitive Clydach gorge. But when finished, it will complete a dual carriageway between the English midlands and the Heads of the Valleys, including the Ebbw Vale enterprise zone. And it is an ambitious project, and we are grateful for those people who are living and working in the area for their patience while the works are ongoing. But in terms of an update, the situation, as described in the statement that the Minister made in April, remains the situation today.

Two mutual investment model schemes are currently in procurement: the dualling of the A465, and a delivery partner procurement for the twenty-first century schools and colleges programme. I expect each of these procurements to conclude in 2020. A third MIM scheme—redevelopment of the Velindre Cancer Centre—is currently in development.

I thank the Minister for that response. The mutual investment model costs more than borrowing by the Government. If that were not true, it would be the preferred method of borrowing. It is effectively private finance initiative without facilities management.

On a low-risk project, with an estimated additional cost of 3 per cent for borrowing, 5 per cent for profit, and 2 per cent for the community good part of the scheme, adds an extra £1 million for every £10 million of cost. Does the Minister have different figures? And will MIM schemes, because of the extra cost, have to prove their benefit against more exacting criteria?

So, as a general rule, MIM schemes are expected to be more expensive than traditional capital investment. However, the actual cost for the MIM scheme will be a factor of that specific project and the procurement exercise that goes on ahead of it. And there'll be many factors that play a part. So, borrowing costs, capital costs, operating costs, and the risk transfer being some of those particular factors.

It is important to recognise that we'll be generating an additional investment of over £1 billion through the mutual investment model. Now, we're using this model because that's £1 billion of investment that we would just not be able to make otherwise, and it is a creative way in which to bring investment in. But, as I say, because of the scale of these projects, they are projects that would not be coming forward otherwise.

I've mentioned before, and I know that Mike Hedges is really familiar with the way in which we take our approach to using conventional capital first to fund public infrastructure projects, and then going through those European funds, and then using the borrowing powers, and then, if we still don't have the funding that we need for the infrastructure ambitions that we have, we will be looking to the mutual investment model, or other models such as the housing finance grant, the coastal funding programme that we have in place and so on. So, I think it's important to think creatively, but also to recognise that we've sought to try and ensure that the disbenefits of the traditional PFI schemes aren't part of the MIM programme, but recognising that this is investment that otherwise would just simply be unaffordable.

And, finally, question 9, Vikki Howells.

The £130 million second tranche of the capital investment package will deliver further confidence in Wales and support businesses in the face of Brexit. We are also investing in the future through initial measures to respond to the climate emergency and protect Wales's environment. 

Thank you for that answer, Minister. I was particularly pleased to see within that the investment of £7 million to support and protect our environment. Building it into our capital spend is an important part of tackling the climate emergency that the Welsh Government has so rightly declared. Can you provide any further details for us today on how you'll work with colleagues across Government to achieve this?

Yes. So, decarbonisation is one of those areas that we're really keen to make some real progress on now, in terms of the budget that we'll be laying shortly. But the things we were able to announce during the capital investment package recently I think did give us the opportunity to just take the first step in that regard. So, as Vikki Howells mentions, there was £7 million to support the environment. That was £4 million for the national parks, £1.7 million for Multi Species Wales and £1.3 million for the Local Energy Service. But, beyond that, some of the other things that are important for the environment within the recent package were £14.5 million additional for active travel and the local transport fund schemes, and they'll fund a range of projects delivering critical walking and cycling infrastructure, encouraging behaviour change in Wales; an additional £10 million to increase the number of new homes produced with a modular approach, and then that, of course, takes us further on that journey to make new homes low or zero-carbon; and an investment of £1.3 million to support local new renewable energy schemes, aiding our transition, again, to that low-carbon economy. So, I think that this programme has been really important, but I certainly see it as a springboard for much more ambitious plans in the future.

Thank you, Minister, for that session. 

The next item is questions to the Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language, and the first question is from Dai Lloyd.

I'm afraid that such an assessment is not a matter for me. The Welsh Language Commissioner is responsible for implementing the Welsh standards regime, including imposing standards on local authorities. He also monitors and enforces standards, and advises local authorities on compliance.

Translations units are key as local authorities are trying to achieve the Welsh language standards, but, unfortunately, there are problems facing the translation unit of Swansea council. There are concerns regarding the numbers of staff, lack of leadership and lack of investment, and uncertainty regarding the service. All of this is having a negative impact on the service and the staff. The unit assists the work of Swansea council and Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council, but it doesn't appear that either council is concerned about the situation of the current translators. Cymdeithas Cyfieithwyr Cymru, the Welsh translation society, has offered help to the council in the current situation but, so far, there hasn't been a formal response to this proposal. The Welsh Language Commissioner is already aware of the situation, but will you as a Government look into this crisis situation in Swansea and Neath Port Talbot?

Thank you. I'm more than willing to have a conversation with the commissioner as regards this situation. One of the things we have to do in future is to look at how we can use software to do much of the work that is currently undertaken by translators. They are aware that we do need to make progress with this technology; they don't see it as any threat to them. But we must ensure that the support is in place so that these translators are aware of how to make use of technology, and I'm happy to discuss that situation with the commissioner. 

The Welsh Government recognises and celebrates the value and contribution that our diverse communities make to Wales as a whole. We make every effort to cherish and strengthen those relationships, including ministerial visits overseas and hosting events to celebrate festivals with the international diaspora community in Wales.

Thank you for that response, Minister. In Newport East, we're very fortunate in having diverse communities, including strong Pakistani and Bangladeshi communities, and, of course, they have many links with Pakistan and Bangladesh. I just wonder to what extent Welsh Government is drawing on that heritage and those links in fostering its relationships and the trade and the general activity that take place between Wales and those countries.

Thank you. Well, what's come across very clearly to me in developing the international strategy is that we can't do this alone—we have to use all of the networks available to us, and we have very strong networks and communities, as you say, in particular the Bangladeshi community and those from Pakistan. So, we are trying to develop now a mechanism to make sure that they know what our messages are to make sure that we can communicate with them and, hopefully, they can communicate back home to some of the countries that their families are from.

But I do think that it's important that we celebrate the contribution that these people make to our country. I'm sure you'll be aware that the Welsh Government has extended our community cohesion programme for an extra two years, contributing an extra £1.52 million to that. But also I think it's important to celebrate what they give to us as a society, so, recently, I've celebrated Diwali, for example, with many of the Members here, but also I think we could do more to celebrate some of the national days. Bangladesh, for example, came, and there were lots of representatives from Newport when the cricket team came from Bangladesh during the world cup. So, I think there are opportunities, and I know, for example, Bangladesh will be celebrating 50 years of independence, and I hope that will give us an opportunity in 2021 to celebrate with them on that occasion.

I think you can guess what I'm going to ask you about, Minister, before I utter the words. John Griffiths and I have done a fair amount of work over the last couple of years with the Love Zimbabwe charity, based in Abergavenny. The charity has, as the Minister will be aware, done a great deal to build relations between Abergavenny—and Wales, indeed—and Zimbabwe. Can I thank the Minister for the recent meeting that she held with me and David and Martha Holman from the charity? As you know, there are a number of exciting projects in the pipeline. Can you tell how you're working with other towns, and villages, indeed, across Wales to try and build up those links between Wales and Africa? We've heard about the links with Pakistan and with communities in Asia. There's a lot to be done—and this Assembly has done a lot in the past—to build up relations between Wales and Africa, and I think that there's a lot to be gained, as you know yourself, from those relationships. I know that the mutual people, both in Africa and here in Wales, really do benefit from them.

Thank you, and it was really a pleasure to meet Martha and others from the Love Zimbabwe group, and it's amazing the kind of energy that they bring to the table and they've really galvanised the community. I think that's really what we'd like to see more of. We've got to harness that energy, and that's some of the things that we do with the Wales for Africa programme. There's an opportunity for people to bid into the programme. There are thousands of people involved in hundreds of organisations across the whole of Wales, and there's an opportunity for them to bid in so that they can develop some of their programmes. I'm delighted to see that Love Zimbabwe has been one of those beneficiaries in the past.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Siân Gwenllian.

Thank you very much. Last year, Undeb Myfyrwyr Cymraeg Caerdydd was launched, a significant development in terms of the Welsh language in the field of higher education, and I had a meeting yesterday with two of the union's leaders, Wil Rees and Jacob Morris. Last autumn, there was strong support by Cardiff University students in their annual meeting for the next step, which was to create an elected officer role, salaried and full-time, for the Welsh language, who would also be president of this new union. And, in December, the university students union trustees board confirmed that the role would be in place by spring of 2020. However, unfortunately, on the eve of this year’s annual meeting, it has become apparent that there's been a u-turn on plans to establish this salaried post for Welsh language students. A similar post exists, as you know, in Bangor, Aberystwyth and Swansea. The union board risks creating hostility towards the Welsh language by stating that there is a need to abolish provision for other groups in order to ensure appropriate provision for the Welsh language. Could you confirm that you're aware of this situation and that you share my concerns regarding the latest developments? And, if so, can you commit to correspond urgently with the college authorities and the union before their annual meeting tomorrow evening?

Thank you very much. I was also pleased to see the establishment of Undeb Myfyrwyr Cymraeg Caerdydd back in 2017, and I do think it’s crucially important. We know that there is a decline as people leave school and they don't have an opportunity to use their Welsh language skills, and I think it's very important that students have an opportunity to use the Welsh language in a social capacity, and this is exactly what this student union provides.

I was also aware that the board of trustees in the past had committed to appointing a full-time officer in Cardiff, and I am disappointed that they have stepped away from that. Of course, it's a matter for the student union itself to make a decision here, but I do think it's worth noting that Bangor is in the vanguard, as is Aberystwyth and Swansea too. Also, it's worth putting on record that there are more Welsh speakers going to Cardiff University than there are to the other universities. So, I do think that it's important that they do give serious consideration to this situation. I received correspondence on this issue on Monday, and now that you have mentioned that there is some urgency, I will look at it.

Great. Thank you very much, and I'm pleased that there is a consensus on this matter, and I really hope that this issue will be resolved positively. I would like to wish those students who are trying to push this ahead well.

I'd like to turn to another field now. On Monday evening, the Welsh Language Commissioner published a report in which he determines that workers in a factory in Ammanford had been prevented from speaking Welsh in the workplace. It causes me great heartache to hear of workers breaking down in tears when they're prevented from speaking their mother tongue, whatever language that may be. In the words of Aled Roberts:

'It is disappointing that an international company in the twenty-first century cannot see the merits of a linguistically diverse workforce that uses the Welsh language completely naturally.'

According to the commissioner’s latest annual report, this case is part of a wider trend of an increase in the number of cases relating to claims of interfering with the freedom of individuals in Wales to communicate with each other in Welsh. What specific steps will you be taking to respond to such a totally unacceptable increase in cases similar to the one that has become apparent in Ammanford?

Of course, I was very disappointed to see what had happened in this factory in Ammanford. I don't think it just relates to the Welsh language; it relates to the Polish language too. But I do think that we should respect people's rights to speak their language, particularly when that is the indigenous language of the nation. Of course, we do need to ensure that people are aware that people in this country do have rights, and they shouldn't be interfering with people's rights to communicate in the workplace. Of course, I will be having further discussions with the commissioner as to what more can be done to raise awareness, particularly in terms of private business, where many of these problems arise.

It's clear to me—and I know that you disagree with this—that cases such as these mean that we need to revisit legislation relating to the Welsh language in the private sector.

One area where the current legislation allows you to act today to promote workforces where staff can work through the medium of Welsh and safeguard their rights to use the Welsh language unhindered is in the workforces of housing associations. You will be aware that I've raised the position of Cartrefi Cymunedol Gwynedd many a time with you, Minister. This body has a language scheme and it is committed to maintaining a Welsh language internal administration, and has also pledged that any member of staff can communicate in Welsh or English to support this policy. However, Adra—Cartrefi Cymunedol Gwynedd previously—once again is recruiting for a managerial post where Welsh language skills aren’t essential. The truth is that there is nothing that can be done to hold this body to account, because no standards have been set in relation to housing associations. Draft regulations are collecting dust in your drawer. When will you be introducing standards for housing associations?

We have no plans to bring legislation forward in terms of the private sector. But we do have plans to introduce regulations for the water sector, and we will do that in the new year, as well as those for some health bodies. In terms of the housing associations, I do think at the moment that it is up to them to decide what their priorities are. Having a diverse range of skills is crucial for this work, and I do think it’s important that they consider what the critical skills for them are. There may be some technical expertise that they require and that they see that perhaps as being most important. So, I do think that they have to make decisions as to what their priorities in this area are.

The Conservative spokesperson, Darren Millar.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Minister, will you update us on the timetable for the publication of the Welsh Government's international strategy, please?

Yes. In the light of the general election, and the fact that we had some guidance from the civil service that this would impact because of the connection with the Foreign Office, they suggested to us that we should postpone the publication of the international strategy. But that will be coming out, we hope, early in the new year.

I think that's an incredibly disappointing answer, if I may say, Minister. You've been the Minister for international relations now for almost 12 months. It took you more than seven months to actually produce a draft strategy for consultation, and now you're telling us that you're going to delay the publication of the final strategy until the new year. You say it's because of the general election, and yet we've seen announcements from other members of the Welsh Government on matters that, frankly, are completely non-devolved, such as broadband just last week, and yet you say that you can't publish your own international strategy and therefore we can't hold you to account for your delivery against the priorities that you have set out. Now, if you're not able to share the strategy with us at the moment, perhaps you can tell us what your current thinking is as a Welsh Government with regard to the engagement that you propose having in the future with developing nations around the world.

Thank you. Well, our work on the strategy and on what we're doing in the international arena has not stopped. We are being very active on lots and lots of different fronts. And if you look at just what we achieved in Japan, I think that will give you an example of how we are reaching out beyond Wales and making sure we take advantage of situations. We are very pleased that Wales now will be going to the European cup, and that will give us another opportunity for us to raise our profile internationally as well.

The key thing that is most important for me is that, actually, this is not just about a Government international relations plan; this has got to be about everybody buying into this as much as possible so that we can really amplify our voice overseas. And in order to do that, what was crucial is to make sure we got the engagement right on developing the strategy. We've had over 110 responses in relation to our draft strategy and we have processed those now. By tomorrow, or the end of this week, we'll be publishing what those responses are. But that engagement is absolutely crucial, and that engagement in particular with developing countries is something that we have already undertaken in relation to the Wales for Africa project. But also, there's lots and lots of other work that we think we could be doing. But using our diaspora, as John was suggesting earlier, is an opportunity for us to reach back into some of those countries where we are keen to make further relationships.

Thank you for your response. It didn't focus a great deal on the engagement with developing nations, but at least it told us that you were trying to crack on with things, in spite of having a strategy to work with. One of the references in your draft document said, and I quote: we will,

'demonstrate global responsibility by rebranding the successful Wales for Africa programme to become the Wales and Africa programme with a focus on sustainability',

which doesn't strike me as sounding very ambitious—a simple rebrand of that programme. You've already heard this afternoon that its success has been lauded by Assembly Members on all sides of this Chamber in all political parties. And I, too, want to congratulate the Welsh Government on the success of that programme. I think it's a very valuable and noble programme that is making a real difference in the lives of people in sub-Saharan Africa. But the heart of the Welsh people goes beyond just sub-Saharan Africa. There are many organisations that have engagement with nations in the far east, in south America, in the middle east and all sorts of other places around the world, where, I believe that, with a little bit of support from the Welsh Government, we can amplify the impact that Wales has in those nations and make a real difference.

Just yesterday, I attended a presentation by the Disasters Emergency Committee, which clearly demonstrated just how passionate people in Wales are and how much they care about these other parts of the world. They told us about when the Disasters Emergency Committee launched appeals in the past and gave us some figures in terms of the Welsh contribution to the overall giving. They told us that, with the Nepal earthquake appeal back in April 2015, over £2.5 million was raised here in Wales. They told us that, in response to an appeal about the crisis in Yemen in December 2016, over £1 million was raised. They told us that the Myanmar appeal in 2017 raised over £842,000, and the Indonesia tsunami appeal in 2018 raised over £871,000. These are huge sums of money, all of which are much more in excess of the actual total budget—in fact, every one of those appeals—for the whole of the Wales for Africa programme.

Minister, do you agree with me that it's time we had a Wales for the world programme, where actually we can expand what we do, we can be more globally responsible, and we can amplify the Welsh presence in those developing nations and show some leadership, yes, on climate change, but also on alleviating poverty and responding to these sorts of situations that, very clearly, the people of Wales are passionate about?

It's absolutely true that people in Wales, I think, are very generous and understanding of the need to support poorer communities around the globe. I'm sure you'll be very pleased to hear that the Welsh Government actually supports the co-ordination of the work of the Disasters Emergency Committee, and we've been actually paying for that co-ordination work by helping to pay for an administrator. What we know is that that co-ordination of different charities—. There are about 14 charities that come together, and the plan is to get as much money in as fast as possible. I think that's a valuable piece of work, and you'll be aware that the First Minister always does a video to help promote those as well. 

So, there's no question about the generosity of the people of Wales, but the question for us is: with the small budget that we have, how do we make that work best? Now, we can scattergun it throughout the world or we can focus it, and I think that there is a case to be made for focusing that funding, and that's what we're proposing to do. We're focusing it on various themes—for example, on sustainability—but also focusing it on countries where we do have particularly strong relationships, namely Lesotho and Uganda, where recently, you'll have heard, we planted the ten-millionth tree. So, I think there's an opportunity for us to work there, but the broader we go, the less impact we're likely to have.

Question 3, Alun Davies. You've had your three questions, Darren Millar.

No, I haven't, with respect.

Sorry, I think you have. I think you have had three. I've got it down that you've had three questions.

Have I really?

Sorry, you have, yes. That's why I allowed you to go on on your third question, because I knew you weren't coming back. Sorry.

Question 3, Alun Davies.

Thank you. The international strategy sets out my priorities to fulfil Wales’s international ambitions, including growing the economy of Wales through exports and inward investment and raising Wales’s international profile. Both of these ambitions have a direct impact on Blaenau Gwent.

Perhaps I can help out Darren Millar here by continuing the debate on the international strategy—I don't know. But certainly, the purpose of any strategy, whether it happens to be international or otherwise, that the Welsh Government pursues has to have an impact on places like Blaenau Gwent. And it is important, I believe, that the Welsh Government has a very clear vision, idea, on how that strategy is going to impact upon the people I represent. And so I hope that when the Government eventually does publish this strategy, it will have very clear objectives, very clear targets, enabling us to hold you to account, Minister, but also an explanation of how this work will have an impact on some communities such as Blaenau Gwent and the people I represent.

Well, I'm not sure if we'll be going into the granular detail of how every community in Wales will be impacted by the international strategy, but what I can tell you is that, specifically, we have earmarked and we are going to be highlighting some specific industries. One of those industries is cyber security, and you'll be aware that the National Digital Exploitation Centre in Ebbw Vale is a key part of that jigsaw. I think there are real opportunities for us to shout very loudly about the expertise we have here in Wales already. The key thing then is to make sure that those people in Blaenau Gwent can benefit from that, and that's why this relationship, I think, with the digital education centre is so crucial, to make sure that local people, when we see that expansion, are able to take advantage. But there are also other things that we need to be aware of. Blaenau Gwent is one of our exporting hotspots. It's amazing how many companies from Blaenau Gwent are actually exporting overseas, and, of course, right next door to you you've got the UNESCO world heritage site, and that's another opportunity, I think, for us to encourage people to come to the south Wales Valleys to see what we have to offer in terms of tourism.

Minister, one of the aims of the international strategy is to raise Wales's international profile. You know the Commonwealth Games are coming in 2022, and there'll be more than 250 events and more than 18 different sports, with more than 5,000 athletes coming from 71 countries globally. This will give a great boost to Birmingham, which is very close to north Wales, but there are certain sporting events for south-east Wales, especially Blaenau Gwent, like rowing, cycling, shooting, archery and hockey—these can be arranged, a couple of matches, and will bring the international community to Wales to boost our economy and our profile. So, may I ask what recent discussions have taken place between you and officials from the other side of the border regarding the Commonwealth Games—and it will definitely raise our profile and boost—and could you tell this Assembly how many sports you're trying to get to Wales to boost our economy, especially in south-east Wales? Thank you.

Thank you. Well, I have met with the organisers of the Commonwealth Games, and I think everybody is starting to feel that sense of excitement now that something very significant is coming very close to us. What we were discussing is to what extent we in Wales can exploit those opportunities. One of the things we're discussing, for example, is whether we can have some of the teams that are coming to compete based here in Wales. So, that was a discussion that we're seeing how we can move on. The other thing to note is that the Urdd has now officially partnered as the Welsh group that is going to be standing with the Welsh team—Mr Urdd is going to be their official logo, to promote the Welsh team. So, I think there is a huge amount of work that is already being undertaken, I'm pleased to say, in relation to the Commonwealth Games.

You referred there to the Urdd. You will be very aware of the excellent work undertaken by the Urdd and of its ambition to expand its work on an international level, thereby providing an international platform to the children of Blaenau Gwent and to children throughout Wales, to share the values of Wales across the world, for example through the goodwill message. I discussed some of these ideas with Urdd representatives this morning. But will you give consideration to how you could support these plans as part of your strategy, including the possibility of providing funding specifically to work on the Urdd's international strategies?

I do think that the Urdd is an organisation that has done excellent work internationally over the years, particularly that message of peace and goodwill. I think it’s important that we make more of that. The fact that the Urdd have recently been to Alabama to convey that message as to how Wales stood with the people there during those troubled times, as to how people dealt with issues that were going on in that area in the 1960s and 1970s. Of course, we do have discussions with the Urdd as to how we can assist them in future to strengthen the message and to convey that message effectively. I know that it’s part of their strategy to do far more on the international stage and, clearly, we should be strong partners for them. We will look at the minutiae as to how that can happen financially at a later date.

Thank you very much, Janet. It's always a pleasure to reply to questions from my Assembly Member.

A feasibility study that explores a number of potential models for a national archive for Wales has been undertaken. Publication of this study and next steps will take place after the United Kingdom general election period. 

Thank you, Minister. Of course, the archival records of designated public record bodies in Wales are either transferred to the National Archives for preservation or in fact retained in Wales in approved local places of deposit. A number of Welsh Government records are held in Kew, such as board minutes and papers of the Welsh Development Agency, the Wales Tourist Board and the Land Authority for Wales. Now, as these directly relate to devolution matters, it is considered by some a great pity really that such documents are not held here in Wales.

It is legally possible to create a Welsh national public record office, and I fully appreciate there will be resource implications. You did mention to me in September that an initial study to examine the feasibly for creating a national archive for Wales is currently being finalised. I would like to place on record my support for this initiative going forward and, really, I understand the predicament you're in as regards the election. However, I was just wondering whether there have been any ideas of certain places in Wales considered for this national archive to be implemented, and where they might be.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I have no ambition myself to create more national institutions during my remaining period as a Minister, but I will indeed wait for the report, which will be forthcoming from the consultants. The feasibility study was commissioned by Elizabeth Oxborrow-Cowan Associates who are very skilled and knowledgeable in this field. Work has involved an options appraisal to consider the most appropriate service model, because I think it's very important that when we look at national services for Wales, they should not replicate what happens in other countries necessarily, but should be tailor made to what suits the country. There has been a comprehensive review of current public record systems and legislation, an analysis of national archive models, a profiling of current archival provision and serious discussions. As you quite rightly say, the legal framework was in the Government of Wales Act 2006, but as I say, my intention is to await the publication of the report, but I am unable to indicate when that might happen. But, as I say, it is not currently a Welsh Government priority, although it's interesting to note that it is apparently a priority for the official opposition. So, we'll see if minds can meet on this one.

Thank you very much for that question. One of my priorities in supporting tourism—. I'm never sure which way to look. [Laughter.] I'm supposed to address the Dirprwy Lywydd, if you put up with my back, briefly, for this moment.

One of my priorities is supporting tourism across Wales through marketing, capital development funding for new and existing tourism businesses and revenue funding for regional projects. Since 2014, tourism investment has delivered eight funding packages in the south Wales Valleys, totalling £3.7 million, resulting in an investment of £11.3 million.

Thank you, Deputy Minister, for that very detailed answer. Just last month, there was a very welcome announcement that, along with your ministerial colleagues, you jointly agreed to fund Sustrans to lead a partnership bid for assembling external funding for the reopening and running of both the Abernant and Rhondda tunnels. As I have said previously, I believe that reopening those tunnels could give a considerable boost, not least in terms of heritage and cycling tourism. I'd welcome your views on this and your thoughts on what actions could be taken by the Welsh Government to maximise the tourism potential if those tunnels did reopen.

Well, as it happens, I have before me the two relevant reports: the one on the south-east Wales study of the Rhondda tunnel and, of course, the one that refers to the scoping study for the national cycle network using railway tunnels. The Abernant tunnel would provide a cross-Valley link between Aberdare and Merthyr; the Rhondda tunnel between the Afan and Rhondda Valleys; the Pennar tunnel between Pontllanfraith and Newbridge; and there are possibilities with the Usk tunnel, which is a disused railway line that would avoid a busy road.

What I've done is to ask Sustrans to lead partnership work, which we have partly funded, to explore the potential for bringing key tunnels back into use. I'm very excited by what has happened in Bath and the two tunnels scheme, which also in that case involves an aqueduct. The study will build on the work that Welsh Government did in 2015 and the work that local authorities have done on the active travel network. The Sustrans study will invite key stakeholders, including the Rhondda Tunnel Society, to be involved in the partnership to take this forward.

I believe opening tunnels up to further public use, especially for cycling, hiking, walking and other activities—although obviously not motorised transport, and not the return of trains, or at least not yet—should be part of the function of the tourism department.

Minister, taking to the air, we know there won't be a zip wire across Cardiff Bay, but Zip World—I know you appreciate their services, they do so much in your part of Wales—have looked at the Tower colliery site in Hirwaun. There are other fantastic sites in the upper Valleys as well to have zip wires. Wouldn't it be marvellous if we could open one and invite the zip wire king, Boris Johnson, to come and open it? [Laughter.]

I am unable to answer questions that would take me into territory referring to the current Westminster election. I feel particularly unable to do this as, of course, being a mere peer of the realm, I am unable to vote in this election. But, I should also declare a personal interest or a neighbourhood interest, although not a financial interest, in Zip World and in the investments undertaken by my friend and neighbour over the hill in Nant-y-Rhiw in the Conwy valley, Sean Taylor.

He has indeed, I know, both from the local authority, Rhondda Cynon Taf, and from himself, visited the area and he is very interested in investing in a zip wire of the Valleys. I look forward to that project coming forward. I don't think I can comment any further on the merits of it. He has not in the past sought funds from my department for his investment, at least not on a large scale, but I can't comment further on it because obviously there are planning issues.

But the achievement of Zip World in the north has transformed the visitor economy and has emphasised the attractiveness of Wales and its landscape. And I can say that I did send my director general in the department of tourism, media and sport to test out the zip wire on my behalf, which Mr Jason Thomas, if I may name him in this Chamber, did with great style.

There is amazing potential for the Rhondda, especially when it comes to cycling, from a tourism perspective. We have some of the finest and most picturesque climbs in the UK. For example, the Bwlch-Rhigos loop is often used by Tour de France winner, Geraint Thomas, and his team mate, Luke Rowe, when training. I produced this document earlier this year, in conjunction with Sustrans, and it explores the ways in which we could stimulate cycling in the Rhondda, not just for tourists, but for local people who want to get onto two wheels for whatever reason.

Poor cycling infrastructure is a major barrier. In some places in the Rhondda, it's simply not safe to travel up and down the Rhondda, and this has to be improved, especially if we are to bring to fruition the Rhondda tunnel project, which has incredible potential to draw tourist visitors to the area. I welcome what you've said about the Rhondda tunnel, but can you tell us what budget will be available, and when it will be available, to improve the paths that lead to the Rhondda tunnel, because we need that investment in order to make the Rhondda tunnel project viable?

I'm unable to give you figures on that from the briefing I have before me today, but I will look into it. But I will also say that any related works that are needed need to be part of a feasibility study that relates to developing the tunnel, because it doesn't make sense to open a tunnel and not ensure that the access to it on both sides means that it is part of the national cycle network. 

I think we're going there this week, aren't we, or next week? [Interruption.] I think.

I will provide this response in Welsh, because I know you're a Welsh learner. 

The Welsh Government supports the conservation of historic sites, which are important to Wales, such as Ruperra castle.

Is that right? Ruperra—Rhiw'r Perrai. Well, so say my scholastic advisers. 

Cadw has provided long-term support to the castle over many years through financial grants and professional advice. 

It was testing my Welsh there. If you're going to answer in Welsh now, I'm going to put my headphones on.

I understood you were visiting this week, but it's next week you're visiting Ruperra castle. In their submission to the public consultation on the draft national development framework, the Ruperra Castle Preservation Trust, who I met last week, supported the establishment of a green belt for south-east Wales and suggest it includes Caerphilly mountain, the River Taff eastwards to Coed Craig Ruperra and south to Castleton as well, which currently is not the case. Unless all this land is added to the existing green belt, then they've got concerns that, between Cardiff and Newport, if there's no protection, there's a real danger that that area will be taken and built on by developers, which will spoil any chance of the preservation of Ruperra castle and the surrounding grounds. 

The trust and their sister organisation, the Ruperra Conservation Trust, have also objected to plans to make piecemeal repairs to different parts of the estate without the benefit of a wider master plan. And I've made objections to Caerphilly County Borough Council on both those grounds and made a submission to the national development framework consultation. With that in mind, will the Minister reflect on these concerns when visiting Ruperra castle, and will he then report back on how the discussion went at the visit? And can he outline what he intends to achieve on that visit, and how he will take the message, with regard to the issues that I've raised, from across Government to the people he meets at Ruperra at the time of the meeting?

Thank you very much for that detailed question. I will certainly undertake to observe the castle in context and in landscape, or townscape, because historic buildings do not exist on their own. They always exist in relation to the natural environment or the built environment that surrounds them and therefore there is a responsibility on Cadw and we do always comment, 'We are statutory.' I shouldn't say 'we', really, because I'm the Minister for Cadw, but it is one of my favourite organisations in all the world and was before I had this job. [Laughter.] So, Cadw does respond to any statutory consultation, and will set out the protection for the heritage monument if it is affected by adverse exterior development.

I cannot comment on the broader planning issues, which, of course, are for the planning Minister, but in considering planning issues we have to take and we do take within Government very much an integrated approach, so that all the factors that arise from a proposed development, and how they impact the existing structures, are something that would be considered. Of course, I would expect that any major development in an area of that kind would probably be subject to a planning process that might require a public inquiry and, possibly, a report from an inspector, but I can't speculate on that, and that would give an opportunity for the public and you, of course, as their representative, to make full-hearted comments about the development.

And finally, question 7—David Rees.

I'm afraid that progress on a concordat for trade, and related inter-governmental machinery, has been paused for the general election.

That's a very disappointing situation, Minister, because, clearly, we fully understand that the UK Government seems to think that trade negotiations are a reserved matter, and no involvement of devolved nations will be taking place in those negotiations. It's not necessarily the negotiations, but it's actually setting the agenda for those negotiations that will be crucial. I think it's important that Welsh Government must have an input somewhere at that stage, because we know that the implementation of trade negotiations—the devolved competencies will be here.

Everyone talks about the national health service and the implications of a UK-US trade deal on the national health service, but there are many other trade negotiations going on. On the Korean one, we may want to talk about the human rights situations regarding the nations we want to have a trade agreement with, and whether that is appropriate depending on their human rights status and experience.

So, what is the Welsh Government doing to actually influence any future trade negotiations and to be in at the early stages to set the mandates for the negotiations so that Wales can get the benefits from the negotiations, but also that we also see the Welsh Government's interests put into any trade negotiation as well?

We've been very clear with the UK Government that it's imperative that we are a part of any trade negotiations. The Secretary of State has agreed to establish a joint ministerial forum on trade. The problem is that every time we get going here, there's a shift and a change in terms of personnel. So, we develop these relationships with the relevant Minister, we get a long way down the line, then we've had a new Prime Minister and now we've got a general election, so we have to start all over again. It's a really, really frustrating situation.

We have, in the past, had some reassurances that we will be involved in developing negotiating positions. There is, I think, a recognition that we have to be involved in areas where we have devolved responsibility, otherwise they'll be signing trade deals and we'll be responsible for the implementation of trade deals that we may not agree with. Certainly, if it comes to the NHS, for example, we are absolutely clear that we do not want American pharmaceutical companies having access to our markets.

So, I think it's essential that, first thing after the general election, we will be pressing for further progress. We've gone as far as we can, I think, in terms of bilateral relationships, but we now need the machinery to be established so we can move forward and be ready for those trade negotiations before they start speaking to other countries.

Thank you very much, Minister.

Item 3 on the agenda this afternoon is questions to the Assembly Commission. All of the questions this afternoon will be answered by the Llywydd. Question 1—Neil McEvoy.

As a consequence of the Commission being made aware that there had been covert recording of private and confidential conversations on the Assembly estate, a sweep of the estate was undertaken to ensure that no covert recording devices are now present. We had to take this step to provide assurance to Assembly Members and their staff, staff of the Assembly Commission, Welsh Government staff, other users of the estate and members of the public that they can be confident of being able to hold conversations in a safe environment, free from fear of eavesdropping.

You should be aware that the South Wales Police are investigating the former standards commissioner and staff for misconduct in public office. I will be providing the South Wales Police with everything I have, including new evidence.

I'm sorry. This is about the security sweep of the Assembly estate. You cannot mention things that are already being investigated. So, if you can stick to the security sweep on the Assembly estate, we'd be grateful.

It's alleged that you as Presiding Officer have banged heads together and supposedly—[Inaudible.]

No, no. I'm sorry. No, I'm sorry, that's not acceptable. Can you stick to your question, which is about the security sweep on the Assembly estate? It's not about—

With respect, Deputy Presiding Officer—[Inaudible.]

No. [Inaudible.] Sorry. Thank you. Your question is on the security sweep of the Assembly estate. The Llywydd is answering that question as the Chair of the Commission. It is not for anything else other than the security sweep of the Assembly estate.

I want it noted, therefore, that I'm unable to make progress to ask the question that I wish to ask. So, therefore, on my feet here, I will ask a different question. [Interruption.] I'm not being allowed to make progress, with respect, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Just ask your supplementary. Ask your supplementary.

You tabled the question.

It's your question. You wrote it.

Thank you. If the Member can ask his supplementary question. Thank you.

You were quick enough to initiate a sweep of this estate when you were well aware that it was simply my mobile phone that recorded. What other action did you take to preserve at least a modicum of integrity with the complaints process? Because—

I'm sorry, Mr McEvoy. You strayed again. Can you just stick to the actual essentials of the security sweep of the Assembly estate and just—? You were doing well up until you went on to the second bit. So, just think about what you're going to say next.

Presiding Officer, or Deputy Presiding Officer, I believe my question is in order and it should be answered. What we have here, yet again, is a Deputy Presiding Officer protecting—[Inaudible.]

I'm not going to have that. Right. Your mike has been off. And because you want to question that, I'm not going to allow the Llywydd—. [Interruption.] There is nothing for the Llywydd to answer.

There's a surprise—[Inaudible.]

Question 2—Mark Reckless.

As Llywydd, I did not have any discussions with Sir Roderick Evans in respect of standards complaints. I had two meetings with Sir Roderick Evans—one in 2016, the transition period early before he undertook the role, and the other in 2017 to discuss the dignity and respect agenda.

Section 9 of the National Assembly for Wales Commissioner for Standards Measure 2009 places a duty on the Chief Executive and Clerk of the Assembly to refer specific issues to the standards commissioner when they relate to the conduct of Assembly Members. Section 10 of the Measure requires the commissioner to communicate to the Clerk certain matters relevant to her functions as accounting officer.

So, why in one complaint, ruled as being without merit by the standards commissioner, did he refer to an e-mail suggesting you as Llywydd would deal with it by knocking heads together? Why were there—[Inaudible.]

Sorry, Mr Reckless. [Interruption.] No, it is not entirely within the scope, and I would ask you not to quote from unauthorised recordings or of confidential conversations that have taken place, which are part of an investigation, as Mr McEvoy has already alluded to.

Well, could I specifically ask the Llywydd: why was there a need to ensure you were on side, as the complaint involved a Labour woman and a Brexit man? And was this proper conduct by the standards commissioner?

I can only confirm what I know, and I've told you what I know, and that is to say that I had two meetings with the previous standards commissioner—one on his introduction to office and one in 2017 to discuss the respect and dignity policy of the National Assembly.

Engaging with the people of Wales is a strategic priority for the Commission. Over the last few months we have delivered the GWLAD festival across Wales, the first citizen’s assembly, high-profile media coverage both of committee work and Plenary debates, as well as reacting to events. We recently appointed a new director of communications and engagement to build on work already under way to review and improve the way we engage with the people of Wales about what we do on their behalf.

Thank you for that answer. We're now in an election period and, once again, it is clear on the doorstep that voters in Wales are confused about what is devolved and what isn't. This is after 20 years of devolution. What is going wrong and what is the Commission going to do about this?

Well, it's not a matter that's been raised with me on the doorstep, as it happens. But I agree that there is more that we can do. I'm grateful, as always, for any ideas that Members in this place have as to how we can improve how we communicate the work of our committees and the work of this Assembly in its entirety as well, so that we engage fully and properly with people in Wales, in all parts of Wales.

As you know, I have made a suggestion to all political parties in this place that we actually take this place out of this place, to the north, in order to ensure that people properly feel that this Assembly belongs to every part of Wales and that they can interact with us and influence on all matters that are devolved, and hopefully improve the understanding that they have in ensuring that they are able to influence policy and decisions that are taken here on their behalf by their elected Members.

The Assembly Commission is working with a range of partners, including the Electoral Commission, local authorities and the Welsh Government, to co-ordinate our education and awareness-raising activities, seeking to make the best use of resources and utilising each organisation’s expertise to engage younger people.

I'm grateful to the Llywydd for her reply. I'm sure that the Llywydd would agree with me that it's particularly important that we engage young people in this process. Concerns have been raised in the course of the debate about making sure that we drive up the participation of young people between 16 and 17 in elections. May I suggest, Llywydd, that, if appropriate, this is something that could be discussed with the Youth Parliament and with the bodies particularly that support young people to participate in the Parliament, as the young people themselves may have some suggestions about what is the most effective way, both of ensuring they have the knowledge that they need, but also of actually physically enabling them to vote?

Yes, I think it is hugely important that we include those interesting and energetic young people that we have representing the young people of Wales in the Welsh Youth Parliament, with their ideas as to how best to engage with young people in Wales in order to present them with the fact that they may well have the vote for the next Assembly election by 2021—16 and 17-year-olds. They have expertise in this area that we, as older adults, don't have.

We are already working with Members of the Youth Parliament, and, on the point that you make, we need to work with those groups who support some of our youth parliamentarians to ensure that the mode of engagement is interesting and contemporary, and that they can provide that advice to us as to the best possible ways of engaging with young people during this time. So, we will ensure that we continue and enhance that work, and that we draw on the enthusiasm of those young people who are Members of our Youth Parliament in order to support us in this work.

Thank you very much. Diolch, Llywydd.

Item 4 on the agenda this afternoon is topical questions, and the topical question selected this afternoon is to be answered by the Minister for Housing and Local Government. David Melding.

Yes. We continue to work with all high-rise residential building owners and managing agents, our partners in the fire and rescue services and local authorities, to ensure necessary building checks are carried out. The fire in Bolton highlights the importance of joint working and robust risk assessment of all buildings.

Minister, the fire was said to have spread rapidly up the high-pressure laminate panels on the outside of the building, and I think anyone who saw pictures would have been very, very alarmed by the way it did engulf the building and just its rapidity. I'm grateful to Cardiff University, incidentally, for sending us an e-mail, having had notice of this question, on the condition of their buildings. I think that's welcome. But I am particularly worried for students who are living in the private, purpose-built student accommodation that has expanded rapidly over the last few years. Last week, I note also the Fire Brigades Union warned that HPL cladding was more widespread than the material found at Grenfell Tower. It's also been stated in July by the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government that HPL cladding should be removed from high-risk blocks if it was combined with combustible insulation. So, I wonder if we've taken a similar policy in Wales, and, if we haven't, whether it's your intention to do so.

We've written out to all higher education institutions in Wales. I've written to all local authorities, so Kirsty Williams has written to all HEIs. I was pleased to see the response from Cardiff, but we have asked all of the vice-chancellors across Wales to provide us with similar information. We have been doing quite a lot of work before the Bolton fire, you will be reassured to know, where we've been in contact with everyone that we were able to be in contact with. I can't say that that's absolutely everybody, because we aren't necessarily certain that we've got quite everybody. But we've written out to all high-rise building owners and managing agents, where we have the contact details, highlighting to them the relevant findings from the recent Grenfell phase 1 inquiry report and asking them to ensure that their residents are clear on what action they should take in the event of a fire.

The unfortunate events of last weekend in Bolton are a timely reminder to us all of the need to ensure the highest levels of attention are paid to fire safety in residential property, particularly in high-rise properties with multiple occupants. David Melding will know that the investigation is ongoing as to exactly what happened at the Cube, but what's already apparent is that the dynamic management of potential risk is key to ensuring the safety of residents in the event of a fire. Whilst that fire was devastating and did look—the pictures of it crawling up the outside were particularly awful, considering what we all now know about Grenfell, but it does show that people were able to evacuate safely. It doesn't take anything away from the devastating loss of personal possessions and so on, but they were able to evacuate, and it does show that the current system, although flawed, does work.

Greater Manchester Fire and Rescue Service raised concerns about the building with the managing agents, who took appropriate measures to revise their evacuation strategy ahead of putting in place remediation work. So, actually, they had done the right thing, and, fortunately, the residents were able to get out very safely on that night, although, as I say, that's not to take away the devastation of any fire.

On the night of that fire, the fire service responded with speed, fighting not only the fire quickly and efficiently, but also supporting a safe and swift evacuation. Fortunately, as I said, although the loss of personal possessions is always devastating, injuries were minimal.

What's important to understand is that—so, we've written out to everybody to say this—dynamic fire systems need to be in place. I'm not a personal expert in this, of course, so we've got our fire safety chiefs looking at this and writing and ensuring that building managers and owners are dynamic in their response to fire safety. So, my understanding of this is that it is, where compartmentation has worked, still the right thing to stay put, but buildings need to be inspected very regularly indeed to make sure that is still the right advice, and, if it isn't the right advice, then what to do if the compartmentation—that's really hard to say—has failed or is thought to be inadequate in any way.

I'd just like to reiterate the point that containing and extinguishing a fire in a flat where it occurs is safer than organising a mass evacuation, especially in high-rise buildings, where firefighting rescues can be particularly challenging and where evacuating large numbers of people via a single staircase can impede the firefighting effort coming up the building and create its own risks of crushing and trampling. All new and converted blocks of flats have long been constructed so that they have more than one exit in that way, so that we have a route for the fire people to get in and an evacuation route as well.

But 'stay put' reflects the intrinsic fabric of all high-rise residential buildings; it is not the policy of the fire and rescue services, the Government or anyone else. It has kept countless residents of flats safe over the years. There's no evidence at all so far from the Grenfell Tower inquiry that would justify a change to that general approach other than to say that we need a dynamic response to that, and, if there is evidence that the compartmentation of a building is compromised, the response may need to shift very rapidly from 'stay put' to 'evacuate'.

This matter has been raised with me as higher education spokesperson for Plaid Cymru by the NUS, who are concerned about how fast some of these flats are being built, and the boom that is happening also here in Wales, and how that affects students. They've told me that, sometimes, students are put into flats without the whole accommodation having been finished, and therefore fire safety processes are not being properly explained to those students when they first move in. So, I'd like to understand, if that's happening, what communication you've had with universities, who are responsible, ultimately, for the welfare of those students who may be moving into half-built accommodation processes. Some of these landlords are very fast to take money off students but very slow to make any form of changes if there are complaints, so I'd also want to be reassured that, where private landlords are operating and this type of cladding is in existence, what the nature of the conversations are with them, because my understanding is that standards for student accommodation are still lower than other forms of accommodation, and it seems ridiculous to me that students would be placed in more unsafe accommodation than the general population. So, I'd want to seek more clarity on that.

Also, you and I will know from local matters that this has happened closer to home in Swansea, where disruption was caused by a fire in the Omnia accommodation block in the Oldway development, so I'd like to understand what conversations have happened ongoing from that so that we can learn from it, and that it won't be repeated again. It comes back to the issue of payment as well—I know, I was on the committee, previously, that's chaired by John Griffiths—in relation to the fact that some of these people who are living in these private flats are being forced to pay £39,000 in many occasions to make their flats safe, when they simply can't afford it. Is there not a way that Welsh Government can support those flat owners, be it by a Government loan or grant, to help them be able to afford these updates to their flats so that they're not left in huge amounts of debt because they've had to deal with a problem that wasn't of their own making?

Dealing with that last point first, I'm very keen to find a mechanism that doesn't penalise the actual people living in the flats, where it is clearly the fault of the construction company or some other obvious causation. Bethan Sayed will know that that's not always as simple as it sounds to establish, and we have an example in Swansea, which all of us from Swansea are aware of, where it's been immensely complex to figure out who exactly is responsible for which bit. We are working very hard to put a system in place that allows us to do that, but I'm very reluctant that people should have to pay for the mistakes of somebody who's made a great deal of money out of building a building that is inadequate. So, we are still working on trying to work out a way of getting loans and grants out to people in circumstances where we're not, effectively, rewarding bad behaviour. So I'm happy to keep the Senedd updated on our conversation around what we can do exactly, because people do want to be safe, but, on the other hand, they also want to have some equity in the property that they've bought, so I'm trying to keep that right. We're working very hard to try and walk the very complex path of trying to get that right.

We don't have a complete set of data as to the type of exterior façade of all high-rises—by which we mean 18 metres plus buildings in Wales—but we know that there are at least 10 high-rise buildings with HPL cladding. As David Melding alluded to, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they're flammable. Actually, a very complex system, including how the insulation has been put in, whether the fire bricks are there, what the rest of the construction of the building is, makes a big difference to whether it is or isn't considered to be a fire risk. So, we're working with partners to try and improve the information we've got, and we intend to legislate anyway for this. We've already been looking at this, as you know, through a review of our Bill and regulations and a number of things that we're looking at for that.

We have written out to all HEIs asking them to give us back information for all of their students, not just the ones that are in student accommodation supplied by the higher education institute, and we're also continuing to work with local authorities to keep our information up to date so that we can understand exactly where we are with that. We have been doing this for some time, not just in response to the Bolton fire; we've written out several times to local authorities and so on to keep this under review. Once again, we have an example of how important it is to make sure that we do get this right for the future.

I would just like to say, just to pay tribute to the fire service in Bolton, who clearly did the right thing on the night and put the right rescue arrangements in place—not only fighting a fire, but evacuating the students with all but minor injuries. But your heart does go out to people who've lost all of their personal possessions and who find themselves in that position.

But it is important to understand, and I do really very much want to emphasise this, that the system for evacuation should be provided to tenants and owners when they go into a high-rise block in multiple occupation, and we are about to write out to everyone, through Rent Smart Wales and all the other contacts that we have, making sure that people renew that. So, if you've lived somewhere for four years, you may well have forgotten what the information was that you got, if you got it in the first place. So, we're asking people to renew that—renew the information. And, Bethan, if you have examples of people being moved into half-built buildings, where they're not being given the right information about fire safety and evacuation, if you'd kindly give me that I can look into it further.

Thank you very much, Minister.

Item 5 on the agenda is the 90-second statements. The first of this week is from Joyce Watson.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. My office received a call on Monday from a man—a father who is desperately worried about his daughter. She fled an abusive relationship a few years ago, but her ex-partner is still harassing her. There are children involved and also housing issues. He got in touch with me after reading my newspaper column about a White Ribbon event that I'm organising in Machynlleth this Saturday. It is a depressingly common story. We've all dealt with cases as Assembly Members, but each one is uniquely heartbreaking for the families involved. For 163 women in the UK last year the story ended in death. Seven women in Wales paid the ultimate price—in Cimla, Laugharne, Mumbles, Knighton, Bedlinog, Holywell and Tonypandy.

On 25 November, the White Ribbon campaign asks people to never commit, excuse or remain silent about male violence against women. Whether it's speaking to a loved one, support worker, or helpline or anybody else, ending abuse starts with a conversation. So, this White Ribbon Day, I urge everyone to speak up for the women who have lost their lives and the women who are everyday fighting to live their lives.

Thank you. John Griffiths.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. ColegauCymru recently celebrated 10 years in their current building, and, to mark the occasion, a seminar event was held, and discussions were had on the past, present and future of skills in Wales.

The value of education and training must not be underestimated. In 2017, there were just over 350,000 16 to 25-year-olds in Wales, and 50 per cent of these were in full-time or part-time education or training. Further education colleges are providing academic and vocational education to many of them. But, in 2017-18, the majority of FE learners were in fact over 25, and an increase in apprenticeships within this age range has contributed to changing that age profile of learners. And, of course, in general, colleges work very closely with local employers to understand their current and future skills needs. A report commissioned by ColegauCymru showed the economic impact of further education colleges on the local business community in Wales at £4 billion each year. And ColegauCymru have supported colleges and schools across the FE sector in their search for innovative solutions and delivering services more efficiently at this time of great change and challenge. I look forward to continuing to work alongside ColegauCymru in the cross-party group on FE and future skills here in the Assembly, to continue to ensure that Wales remains a country of lifelong learning and second-chance education.

I today want to talk about the pledge made by the Guides in Amlwch to protect the planet, and they ask us to help them. As part of their Future Girls campaign, Girlguiding asked thousands of girls what was important to them. And it was no surprise that the environment in terms of preventing climate change and safeguarding biodiversity was a clear priority. And they want to take action immediately. They contacted me to share their plastic pledges.

On these non-plastic bottle cut-outs, members of the First Amlwch Guides have each written to me to share their plastic promises. They include pledges to use metal or paper straws, to reuse plastic bottles, and to hold on to plastic until they find a recycling bin. Others will be buying food in non-plastic containers, ditching cling film, or, and I quote, 'Telling my mum not to buy plastic bags.' They're asking us as AMs to join them in being planet protectors, by making plastic promises of our own.

Today, I'll be sharing my promises on social media. I'll pledge to always try to recycle well and to continue to support campaigners for a deposit-return scheme—something the Girl Guides agree is a very good idea. And I and the Amlwch Guides invite all of you to make your own plastic promises by using the hashtags #PlasticPromise or #AddewidPlastig.

By working together, we can make a real difference. And let’s take a lead from our young people, because it’s their future.

Thank you very much.

Item 6 is a debate on a Member's legislative proposal on a workplace parking levy. Can I just remind Members that this is the 30-minute slot, where supporting Members have three minutes to speak, and the Minister has six minutes to respond? So, we now move to the proposal on a workplace parking levy, and I call on Jenny Rathbone to move that motion.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Nicely following on from the plastic promises, if we're serious about climate change, then we need to use all the tools at our disposal to get the behaviour change we need. In line with the 5p carrier-bag levy, a modest workplace parking levy would get employers and employees thinking about the environmental cost of using the car to get to work, and improve the sustainability of their business operations.

How many businesses really consider this and have an active travel plan to share with their employees? Clearly some do. HM Revenue and Customs is relocating from Llanishen to Cardiff city centre, where next to none of their staff will be using private cars to get to work. The BBC is having to think about this too, as they move from Llandaf to Central Square. A workplace parking levy could concentrate BBC minds on how many vehicles they really need for that rapid response to breaking news, and the transport of expensive and sometimes heavy recording equipment, which, practically speaking, I agree needs to be done in one of their dedicated vehicles.

This charge would be on the use of commuter parking places and complements a future clean air Act, as well as the draft national development framework. It's designed to encourage employers to manage and potentially reduce the amount of workplace parking places they provide, or as to whether that resource could be used more effectively for some other activity. It would give public bodies an injection of cash to pump prime public transport and active travel routes, where these are inadequate, which, unfortunately, is the case in most parts of Wales. Nowhere in Wales do we have the public transport infrastructure enjoyed by other comparable European countries.

Nottingham introduced a workplace parking levy in 2012. This is a lot easier to implement than a standard congestion charge, and they were clearly outlining that the first 10 parking places are free. It does not apply to disabled parking places, front-line emergency services or vehicles being used for the transport of goods to and from as part of their business. Staff parking at hospitals and other premises are also exempt. The impact has been fantastic. The air quality has improved, nitrogen oxide emissions have gone down and it's generated £44 million in the last seven years, ring-fenced for transport projects. Nottingham bus and tram use per head is the highest in the country outside London. Employers rather than employees are responsible for paying the workplace parking levy, although eight out of 10 companies in Nottingham do pass the charge on to their employees, which stands this year at £415 a year or £8 a week. So, at least it encourages drivers to consider other modes of transport or at the very least car sharing.

The power to impose a workplace parking levy was granted to transport authorities in England and Wales under the Transport Act 2000, but no Welsh local authorities have yet taken this up. Is it that they aren't aware of their new powers or did they body-swerve away from it?

Cardiff did include a workplace parking levy in a recent green paper and say they're still considering it. And towering over it is the High Court ruling last year against the UK Government, Welsh Government and local authorities, including Cardiff, to reduce nitrogen oxide emissions in the shortest time possible. We have to remind ourselves that Cardiff's air pollution is now worse than Manchester or Birmingham, which are much larger cities.

It isn't just Cardiff that has so far failed to follow Nottingham's example. Newport and Swansea have no plans either and Wrexham is keeping a watching brief on how this pans out in other local authorities in recognition of its potential contribution to tackle town centre congestion. They've recently imposed parking controls on their own councillors and staff using the council's town centre premises.

There is a problem with just leaving this to local authorities. The Scottish workplace parking levy, recently passed by the Scottish Parliament, could lead to a large increase in income for, say, Edinburgh, which they'll no doubt spend on local transport proposals, but it won't solve the congestion caused by commuters coming from further afield, say, the border areas, where the transport provision is so abysmal that people are obliged to come by car.

So, this Bill would enable a whole-of-Wales focus on where workplace parking levies are required in line with the particularities of each local authority and where they could shape it to their own local circumstances. Transport for Wales and the city deals would need to have a role in shaping the application of the money to measures that will maximise the reduction of car use for commuting to work.

I'm pleased to contribute to this debate. I must say that I do have some concerns about this motion. That said, I think that Jenny Rathbone has made some very good points. I think that we recognise that there are some good ideas behind these proposals. And, yes, of course, we all want to see public transport strengthened and active travel routes adopted. All of that we agree with. And there's a need to reduce traffic congestion in our main urban centres and to help deal with the climate emergency. 

I think where I have some issues with the motion is that I think that by placing the onus on the businesses, which then, Jenny, as you said, can be passed on to the workers, it strikes me that this may be a tax that could end up hitting some of the people who can least afford it, which I don't think is the original intention behind it.

Yes, we talk about the metro and that's a great idea, but we're still some way off seeing that realised fully in Cardiff. You mention Nottingham, and, yes, it would be wonderful to have more tram routes, more bus routes and more sustainable transport, but at a point where you haven't still got to that level, I fear that people would be having to pay this charge without actually having that real alternative that you mentioned, Jenny.

In my sort of area, Monmouthshire, in rural areas, the problem of a lack of alternatives to the car is even more pronounced. Public transport is often less than adequate; people living in rural areas often feel they have no alternative but to rely on the motor car. I must say, however, I'm pleased that, since the introduction of the climate emergency and the well-being of future generations Act, there has been a presumption more recently against building and giving planning permission for housing developments that aren't adequately served by public transport, so I think the situation is gradually changing. But I do wonder whether it's a little bit too early for these sorts of tax measures that would directly affect people, as I say, travelling to work.

I think we should be looking to provide positive encouragement, and I think there's a suite of measures here, which you've spoken about, Jenny, which you could, over time, move to fully implementing when those alternatives are there. Of course, we want to encourage people at the moment to use electric cars; those are in the early stages of development and uptake. And, as far as I can see it, this levy would apply to all kinds of vehicles, electric vehicles as well, so I'm wondering whether we really want to do that at this stage of time, when we want to encourage people to change from the fossil fuels to electric vehicles, or electric vehicles on the road, and we should do that by encouraging them rather than doing, let's face it, what would be a tax.

The motion refers to the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013. It's been a number of years now since that piece of legislation went through this place; I remember scrutinising it as Chair of the Enterprise and Business Committee. A lot of good thinking behind that Act, but here we are a number of years on, and there's still a lot of the aims of that Act to be realised. So, I think, as far as it goes, Jenny Rathbone, you've put some good ideas forward, but I think we're a little bit too—we're not at the point yet where I would say that this charge would achieve the aims that we would like to see, and would avoid penalising some of the people who can least afford it.

I'm also pleased to contribute to this debate. Of course, this motion isn't a silver bullet, but it's certainly something that has an important contribution to make, first of all, as we've heard, to reduce congestion and traffic, and that will have benefits in terms of reducing air pollution. We know that we are facing a public health crisis, with some 2,000 deaths as a result of air pollution in Wales every year, never mind those who suffer ill health as a result of air pollution. Reducing emissions would help to tackle environmental damage, water pollution, soil pollution, thereby bringing benefits to biodiversity too. And it would, of course, help to encourage active travel and that, in turn, would help with tackling obesity and tackling a sedentary lifestyle. It would also be important in tackling mental health problems and encouraging people to adopt active travel.

So, there are cross-issue benefits, I think, in this proposal. And, of course, Wales is falling behind in this respect because we now see Scotland proposing to introduce this levy through their transport Bill. And as we heard, it's already being implemented in some councils in England—Nottingham and Birmingham being two of those. So, this isn't a pie-in-the-sky proposal; it's already happening.

Now, there are questions around it, of course, and, you know, we've touched on a few of those—the reference earlier to the burden being passed to employees and workers. In eight out of 10, I think, situations you referenced in opening this discussion, so we do need careful consideration around maybe who would be exempt from being subjected to the levy. Clearly, people with particular needs, maybe, who aren't as able to use public transport for different reasons, need to be in our minds in that respect. Parents with children as well, many of whom have to factor in the school run—and there's a whole other debate about tackling school runs—but they need to be considered as well. And, of course, not being able to afford a parking levy would potentially become a barrier or deter new parents possibly from returning to work. So, all of that needs to be considered. Any levy would need to be proportionate to an employee's salary, as well, of course, as the cost and practicalities of public transport. But we know, of course, that 80 per cent of those commuting in Wales use a car, only 4 per cent use the bus, 4 per cent use the train, and 2 per cent use a bike. So, we know that this needs to be tackled and I think this would be a positive step in that respect.

Whilst we can understand the aim of this motion, which is designed to encourage people out of cars and onto public transport, any such legislation is likely to hit the less well off amongst the local authority employees. Those on executive salaries could well afford the levy and would carry on as before, whilst the worst off may be forced to use public transport, which may well be inconvenient or inadequate. We have to recognise—

Will you take an intervention? 

Yes, of course, Llyr. 

The point I'd like to make is: would it not be sensible, therefore, for those who earn more to pay a higher levy?

Yes, I agree—that may well be, but the administration of that may be quite difficult as well. But I agree, that is a possibility, of course.

We have to recognise that outside the larger conurbations, such as Cardiff, public transport can be erratic and sparse, particularly at such times as the manual element of local authority employees would need to access it, as opposed to the office staff who may start work at later times or indeed enjoy the ability to work flexible hours.

It is a simple fact that all infrastructure planning for the last 40 years plus has been designed around the car, meaning that many employees, whether public or private, have no alternative but to use their own transport. We must therefore accept that it will take some time before such legislation as that proposed is actually practical. There's also the possibility—no, probability—that local authority employees would forsake authority employee car parks for free public car parks, thus limiting availability for those wishing to access the local town facilities, such as shopping et cetera.

As any legislation could only apply to the public sector, the Government cannot force private employers to administer such a levy. Public employees would, in effect, be subsidising the transport infrastructure for private employees. Private employees would also be the beneficiaries of any traffic alleviation that the levy may instigate. I'm afraid that, however well intended, any such legislation would, in effect, be counterproductive in its aims.

No-one wants to have to drive to work, nor have the expense of running a car that's going to spend most of the time parked outside their workplace. But many are forced to because this Government and others have been unable to provide a viable public transport alternative, much less one that's as convenient as a car. The policies of successful UK and Welsh Governments and local authorities have resulted in commercial zones being placed in locations that are inaccessible by public transport, as has housing. So, please, please, please stop treating drivers and business as if the congestion and pollution they cause are all their fault. It's not. It's the fault of people like this Welsh Government and local authorities for not planning ahead.

Business rates work off the rateable value of the workplace into which is already being factored parking facilities on site. So, this legislative proposal would result in businesses being charged twice for the same thing. Businesses will either pass the levy on to their employees, as many obviously are, or their customers will take a financial hit that will curb expansion and impact on job creation. And for what? A half-baked, vague, mistaken notion that councils will use the tax to improve public transport and encourage active travel. That's utter fantasy. This is just a way of getting councils a bit more money to fund core services that this Government has failed to give them proper support for so far. If it weren't, this proposal would not just be about enabling councils to use the money for public transport, it would be forcing them to do so. But it isn't, and I note there's no mention of any of the levy funds being ring-fenced.

By adding new taxes and levies, Wales becomes a less attractive place to start or bring your business. This proposal won't reduce congestion or carbon emissions unless, as it may well do, it leads to less employment in Wales. So, I won't be supporting this Bill. The Government should be investing in alternative transport for workers and improving town planning, but instead they're coming up with a new tax. They want to look as if they're doing something, but they don't want to spend any money on it, so they'll come up with a way to tax Wales more. I think it's a terrible idea. Thank you.

Thank you. Can I call on the Minister for Economy and Transport?

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd firstly like to thank the Member for putting forward this legislative proposal. As Jenny Rathbone has, however, said, there is existing primary legislation under the Transport Act 2000 that already allows workplace parking levies to be implemented by local authorities in Wales and England. I'm not going to go into too much detail about the Act, other than to confirm that it makes detailed provision with regard to the use of the net proceeds from schemes, and provides that the net proceeds are available only—only. Michelle Brown was absolutely wrong to make assumptions on a lack of evidence. They can only be used for application by the authority for the purpose of directly or indirectly facilitating the achievement of local transport policies of the local traffic authority.

As such, it's a matter for local authorities to decide whether or not to introduce such measures in their area, but that is not just shifting the responsibility to local authorities to deal with this problem. As a Government, we are fully aware of the problems that we are facing, and on 29 April of this year, we declared a climate emergency. We're taking a lead and meeting the calls for action of people of all ages concerned about the impacts of climate change. Wales is, as Members have said, currently car dependent in the extreme. There is no arguing that at all. Traffic volume has increased by over a third during the course of devolution, reaching a peak of 29.4 billion vehicle kilometres in 2018. The vast majority of that traffic, 94 per cent, was accounted for by cars, taxis and vans. So, tackling our ingrained overdependency on cars and enabling a shift to more sustainable forms of travel, such as walking, such as cycling and public transport, may well be challenging, but it is absolutely necessary.

All forms of behavioural change can be challenging, whether it's ending smoking in public places or ending our love affair with unhealthy fast food, but it is absolutely necessary. And a recognition of the sustainable transport hierarchy, which prioritises sustainable travel modes, will be a key pillar of the new Wales transport strategy to be published in 2020. Our goal is for people of all ages and all abilities to be confident that they can make everyday journeys by walking, by cycling or by public transport, and do so safely.

Over the last two financial years, Dirprwy Lywydd, we have seen a significant increase in the funding available to create and improve active travel infrastructure. And since December 2017, all local authorities have had plans in place for integrated active travel networks for the 142 largest settlements in Wales. And in 2018, the active travel fund was established to create these networks.

Jenny Rathbone identified the excellent example of Nottingham, where local leadership has led to the successful implementation of revenue raising workplace parking levies, which have been transformational, and proving yet again that Michelle Brown is absolutely wrong to make assertions. That particular scheme has raised £9 million in revenue. It costs around about £500,000 to operate, and the net revenue has been invested in transformational tram and bus provision for the city.

I would most certainly, therefore, urge local authorities to consider utilising the Transport Act to reduce congestion in urban places, and in so doing to raise investment for public transport and active travel infrastructure. Reversing the decline in bus patronage is crucial in ensuring that we can reduce reliance on private vehicles, to provide alternatives to the private car, as highlighted by Nick Ramsay in his contribution. And that is specifically what the buses Bill is designed to do. In parallel, I've provided £1 million for four integrated responsive transport pilots that will test innovative forms of demand-responsive bus travel across Wales.

In 2018 we consulted on a clean air zone framework for Wales, with a summary of the results published in April of this year. The framework provides guidance to local authorities who are considering options to address local air quality issues to support the achievement of EU limits as well as local air quality management actions and include the role of parking levies.

Dirprwy Lywydd, there is nothing stopping local authorities from doing what Jenny Rathbone is, I feel correctly, advocating. The powers are there, the reasons for taking action and to utilise them are clear. And so, Dirprwy Lywydd, I'd urge supporters of the scheme to press their local authorities to consider this proven intervention. 

Thank you. Can I now ask Jenny Rathbone to reply to the debate?

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I thank all the Members for their contributions, because it's really important that, in taking forward this measure, if you will allow me to do so, we properly scrutinise some of the disadvantages that could arise.

I absolutely acknowledge the dilemma of people, particularly in rural areas, who struggle to maintain a car on low wages, simply because there isn't any other means of getting there, and we absolutely have to acknowledge that, but it is down to us, the state, to intervene to ensure that everybody has options. Yes, electric vehicles reduce fossil fuel emissions, but they don't, of themselves, reduce carbon emissions. So, that doesn't actually resolve the problem.

The disabled are exempt in the Nottingham scheme, and I would expect, obviously, that disabled parking would be exempt in the new one.

Now, the school run was mentioned, I think by Llyr. There are some schools in my constituency where they're using a very restricted playground area for parking staff cars. We have lost sight of what we're trying to do here. So, I think, if nothing else, this workplace parking levy would force people to think about what use they're making of space that's currently occupied by cars.

In terms of David Rowlands's point, I have to emphasise that compliance in Nottingham is 100 per cent. All employers pay. This is not only the public sector paying for it; this is all employers who use parking spaces in their business. Yes, there are some important things to consider, like people who work unsocial hours. ASLEF gave evidence to the Scottish Parliament and pointed out that the driver of the first train out of the depot needed to use their car to get there. Absolutely. And equally, somebody who is working the night shift would be wanting to come home at six in the morning after eight hours at work when there may not be the public transport links available. 

In terms of how it might be applied to reinforce the inequality between town-centre shopping areas where parking charges are levied and out-of-town shopping areas where no parking levies are raised is something that would certainly be worthy of consideration. But the levy is, as the Minister has said, ring-fenced only for transport proposals, not to be used for anything else. And I'm delighted to hear the Minister saying that, in the new hierarchy of priorities that are going to be published next year, walking, cycling and public transport are going to be of a higher order than the use of the private motor car. So I think, perhaps, the most interesting thing to come out of this is the idea of a sliding scale for employees, which would obviously have to be an adaptation of what is being done in Nottingham at the moment. 

Thank you. The proposal is to note the proposal. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore we will have a vote on this item during voting time. 

Item 7 is the Welsh Conservatives' debate on hospice and palliative care, and I call on Mark Isherwood to move the motion. Mark.

Diolch. Our motion today notes the cross-party group on hospices and palliative care’s report on inequalities in access to hospice and palliative care and is based entirely on this evidence-based report and further detailed evidence received since from organisations and professionals working in the sector. It is therefore deeply regrettable that the Welsh Government is proposing an amendment that deletes almost all of this and I therefore urge them to withdraw their amendment, listen and act.

Approximately 23,000 people in Wales have a palliative care need at any one time, including over 1,000 children. But around one in four, around 6,000 people, don't get access to the end-of-life care they need.

Hospices work in partnership with, and supplement, existing NHS services within local areas. Last year in Wales, 16 charitable hospices provided direct care to over 11,000 people and their families, whilst reaching thousands more through their community engagement and development; 290,000 hours were donated by hospice volunteers; 2,150 adults were seen in day hospice and out-patient care; there were 22,500 overnight stays in in-patient care; 3,500 people volunteered for their local hospices; 8,600 adults were seen by community care and hospice at home; 800 children were helped directly by charitable hospice care; there were 57,700 home visits by community care and hospice at home; and 2,300 families received bereavement care through hospices.

As the cross-party group report found, despite some progress in widening access to hospice and palliative care in Wales, there remains significant unmet need and under-met need. A significant proportion of bereavement support is provided by our charitable hospices in Wales. However, families whose loved one dies in the acute setting after receiving intensive and critical care often miss out on the bereavement care they need through lack of signposting or availability.

The Welsh Government is working with Cardiff University, Marie Curie and the end-of-life care board to review bereavement services. Cruse Cymru hopes that the final report will include a robust and detailed commitment to a strategic commissioning approach to bereavement services across Wales. In welcoming the review, Marie Curie tells me that ensuring adequate support for families experiencing bereavement is an important part of the process of death and dying and is a priority for many in the end-of-life sector. 

The charity 2 Wish Upon a Star also welcomes this review and emphasises the correlation between those organisations funded by the Welsh Government, local authorities or health boards, who predominantly signpost or refer into organisations, and those who provide bereavement services but receive little or no funding. The cross-party group report calls for bereavement to be made a key feature of all relevant policies.

In July 2018, the Minister announced his ambition for Wales to become the first compassionate country—a country where we ensure that the well-being needs of an entire community are a priority. Our motion calls on the Welsh Government to outline how it will achieve this. Marie Curie identifies many examples of best practice in cities, towns and states, utilising the compassionate community model to ensure a better end-of-life experience, ranging from Good Life, Good Death, Good Grief and the Scottish Partnership for Palliative Care toolkit, encouraging local communities to create support networks, to projects in India and Australia.

Hospices and the voluntary sector are well positioned to mobilise volunteers and support communities to help deliver compassionate communities, with many already delivering programmes that focus on widening participation within end-of-life care. Marie Curie runs a helper scheme, in which specially trained volunteers help to provide regular support to those receiving palliative care and their families. Wrexham-based Nightingale House established compassionate communities groups, and, although they cannot manage the liability further down the line, they state that hospices can contribute if their role is focused on people with palliative care needs and that compassionate communities could, therefore, develop with them on this basis. They're, for example, taking their day services out to Chirk in Denbighshire and Mold in Flintshire. 

Hospices also provide additional services to those provided by the NHS, such as support for carers and complementary therapies. However, despite their importance within wider care service provision, hospices are experiencing a number of challenges, which impact on their ability to provide sufficient support services. These include, they state, a lack of statutory Welsh Government funding, resulting in financial pressures that are restricting the ability of hospices to provide services; an out-of-date funding formula leading to a postcode lottery of services; and unmet need caused by a lack of specialist palliative care staff.

Wales's hospices had a combined revenue of £36 million in 2018 and fundraised around £28 million of this. Statutory funding has flatlined for many years. Children's hospices tell me that, although they operate on a 'buy one, get seven or eight free' basis, they've had flatline statutory funding for 10 years.

Government funding of children's hospices in Wales, as a percentage of its charitable expenditure, is lower than in England and in Scotland. In Wales, children's hospices received 12 per cent of their expenditure from Government funding last year, compared to 21 per cent in England and 53 per cent in Scotland. The UK Government is doubling children's hospice funding to £25 million annually by 2023-24, and the Scottish Government is providing £30 million over five years to support children's hospices there. Wales's children's hospices are calling for action on the recommendations made by the cross-party group report and asking the Welsh Government to fund the study that examines the demands for children's palliative care in Wales and the extent to which that is being met.

Adult hospices tell me that their statutory funding has not changed for a decade and has therefore been dropping in real terms each year. Government funding for adult hospices, as a percentage of expenditure, is lower in Wales than in any other UK nation. In Wales, adult hospices received 28 per cent of Government funding, as a percentage of their expenditure in 2017, compared with 33 per cent in England, 34 per cent in Northern Ireland, and 38 per cent in Scotland.

Now, while most people express a preference to be cared for in their usual place of residence—at home or in their care home—55 per cent of deaths in Wales occur in hospitals. However, many of these may receive some support from a hospice. Given the current pressures in Wales on the number of available hospital beds, hospices provide an opportunity to allow people to access the support they need outside of a hospital environment and according to their own preference. Local health boards should therefore develop close working relationships with hospice providers to allow people to access a holistic package of care, designing services together and commissioning smarter to improve lives and reduce pressure on budgets.

The cross-party group report said that those with dementia, heart failure, and neurological conditions in particular, face a range of barriers to appropriate care and are less likely to be referred than cancer sufferers, when they should be entitled to care at home, in hospices and care homes as well as hospitals. The report said people aged over 85 who live in a care home can struggle to get the right support, something the former Older People's Commissioner for Wales has previously highlighted. The traditional view of a hospice as an in-patient unit where someone might go for the last few weeks of life is too narrow when over 80 per cent of hospice services in Wales are actually delivered out in the community or in people's homes.

The committee report made 11 recommendations for improvement, including that Welsh Government should develop a robust action plan to tackle the gaps in palliative care staffing, prioritising district nurses and community paediatric nurses. Health boards need to ensure there is comprehensive out-of-hours coverage across the whole of Wales. Hospices and palliative care providers should educate colleagues in health and social care about the range of services available—they want to. And the funding formula should be based on current population need, which will require clarification on which measurements will be used in determining need, noting that the end-of-life care board no longer holds the levers and funding has been fully devolved to health boards and that the national clinical lead for palliative and end-of-life care told the cross-party group that, although the board is strongly committed to finding ways to measure outcomes, experience, and the differences made, he was becoming slightly concerned about people saying that it was hard to measure outcomes when they were not trying.

Wales has a rapidly ageing population, with the number of people aged 65 and over projected to increase by 36.6 per cent between 2016 and 2041. Of the 34,000 people who die every year in Wales, 75 per cent need some form of palliative and end-of-life care. As a hospice leader told me this week, 'Needs are growing and growing but no more money is coming in, so at what stage do we start to reduce provision?' They emphasised that hospices' independence is their strength and the reason their communities support them, but added that health boards are getting huge and unequal returns from hospices and therefore have no interest in changing the funding mechanism. It is therefore down to the Welsh Government to make this happen.

Effective collaboration between the NHS and charitable sector is essential if we're to radically improve access to hospice and palliative care for everyone across Wales—I've been saying this here for 15 years—with health boards asking hospices how they can help them deliver more. Let's listen, let's make our hospices deliver everything they possibly can, let's improve lives and let's use that NHS budget a damn sight smarter than we currently are.

Thank you. I have selected the three amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. So, can I ask the Minister for Health and Social Services to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans?

Formally.

Thank you. Can I now call on Helen Mary Jones to move amendments 2 and 3, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth? Helen.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to begin by thanking the Conservative group for bringing forward this debate on this very important issue, and to say a personal thank you to Mark Isherwood for his excellent work on this very, very important topic, which, as he says, has been a consistent feature of his contribution to the Assembly ever since he was elected. And I know that colleagues in the third sector and the hospice movement are very grateful to Mark Isherwood for everything that he does, and I'm sure, actually, that that gratitude is shared across this Chamber, regardless of party.

I'd like to speak, if I may, Deputy Presiding Officer, briefly to our two amendments and then make one further general comment. Our second amendment, amendment 2, calls attention to the importance of carers and support for carers in this regard. Of course, Members of the Assembly will be aware that the Health and Social Services Committee has been doing a big piece of work looking at support for carers overall. The impact, of course, of caring for someone in this situation is huge, and, for many people, the emotional impact is very serious. The issues around caring for a younger person towards the end of their life—you may then also, perhaps, as a grandparent, be caring for the children of that younger person. The pattern, of course—we very often see that the younger person, let's say with cancer, may rally, may be well for some months, may be very unwell again; the pattern isn't consistent. And so carers supporting people in palliative care situations have particular needs and they also need that support after bereavement. There is that loss of role, as well, if you've been caring for somebody for some time and suddenly they're no longer with you. You have the grief at their loss and then a question about how you go forward with your own life, and I'm sure that many of us have seen this in our own families. Of course, the hospice movement does some very good work around that grief support, but we shouldn't rely on them alone. So, I'd recommend our second amendment to what is, overall, a very strong motion to the Assembly.

Our amendment 3 speaks about the need to provide a variety of services, and I think Mark Isherwood has acknowledged in his speech that people want different things towards the end of their lives. It is the one thing that is certain that will come to us all, but where we feel most comfortable to spend our last hours and days may be very different from one person to another. Many people choose support at home, and I put on record again my gratitude to the Marie Curie nurses who helped us to take care of my mother at home. Other people don't want that; they don't want to put what they see as a pressure on their family members and their carers. So, we must ensure that there is a variety of services. And, as a representative for Mid and West Wales, I'm particularly anxious that we make sure that those are available across rural communities as well, and there are some excellent hospice-at-home services, the Paul Sartori foundation, for example—

Would you take an intervention? You're most kind for taking the intervention, Helen Mary. I just wanted to draw to your attention, and I'm sure you will agree with me that, in fact, one of the big barriers is the postcode lottery that we see throughout our health boards, with many not prioritising this, so that—. People do want to die and have that support where they want be, and that 24 hours, seven days a week, 365 days a year, if people want to be at home, then they should be able to be at home, but they just, through the postcode lottery of local health boards, don't have that opportunity.

I agree with everything that Angela Burns has said. I think it isn't acceptable that people in some communities can have access to a service and people in other communities cannot. I don't think any of us would want a one-size-fits-all across the whole of Wales, because our communities and individuals need different things, but we do need to offer that variety of services.

I'd like to move on briefly to comment on point 4(d) in the original motion, which I support, about the need for a range of funding models, and to draw the Assembly's attention to the model used by the Tŷ Bryngwyn Hospice in Llanelli in my own region. I've been privileged to support the work of that hospice for many years. In fact, one of my first duties as an Assembly Member was to attend its opening and then to give the local health board a certain amount of pressure to make sure that they funded it properly. Now, in that model, the basic care, the nursing care, the medical care is provided and funded by the local health board. The hospice was built and has been refurbished and all the extra things that come with hospice care are provided by the charitable organisation, which has huge local support.

It's an innovative model, and I think it may be one that could be developed across Wales, and perhaps I'll ask the Minister to agree to take a look at that, and to commend that to other local health boards. It wouldn't work for all charitable hospices, because some of them would feel that that involved too much of a loss of their own autonomy and of the way that they want to provide services, but it is one way that I've seen, where the basic care that would otherwise be provided in a hospital, perhaps, is provided at a much better setting, but where the charitable model is then free to provide the extras, if you like, and not the basics.

Very briefly, just to end my contribution, if I may, Deputy Presiding Officer, to say we can't support the Government amendment. There has been some progress, but there is too much about reviewing and monitoring in it, and not enough action. The cross-party group has done an excellent piece of work. We have the evidence as to what needs to be done, and we need to get on with it. I'm sure that we can all agree with the aspiration for Wales to become the first compassionate country in this regard, but the question is how we fulfil that aspiration, and, to this end, I recommend to this Chamber our amendments 2 and 3 and the original motion. Thank you.

I'm proud to contribute to this debate, just knowing how invaluable our hospice movement is, and I would like to endorse Helen Mary's comments about the fabulous work that Mark Isherwood has done on behalf of the hospice movement. Long before I became an AM, I knew of Mark because of the work he did, so thank you, Mark.

The Dying Matters coalition has concluded that

'It is in communities that the taboo of talking about dying and death needs to be tackled. To be effective we need to work together with everyone who has an interest in raising awareness on end of life issues.'

This is no more true than for hospice and palliative care. Mark was quite right to point out that 23,000 people in Wales have a palliative care need at any one time, and it is terrible that around 6,000 people with life-limiting conditions could be missing out on care provision and that one in four people die without the support and care they deserve.

Following the publication of the 'Inequalities in access to hospice and palliative care' report, your Welsh Government stated, Minister, that in 2018 the recommendations would provide additional focus. However, there remain several unmet aims. Recommendation 7 called on the end-of-life care implementation board to

'develop a robust action plan to address shortages in community nursing'.

We are a long way off achieving this. Hospice providers have warned of shortages in community paediatric nurses and that this has prevented some children receiving long-term care in their home. District nurses have seen a service approach move from calling in to task based, meaning that there is a need for more staff to meet these holistic needs. Even the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee have asked for an update on progress on the development of an action plan.

I must acknowledge that there are some excellent schemes under way, such as the pioneering out-of-hours end-of-life nursing service in north Wales, but there does remain a need to strengthen staffing requirements.

Finance is a major point of frustration too. For example, we—and I say 'we', I say that on behalf of every constituency, but me also as an Assembly Member—we are blessed that Llandudno is the home of St David's Hospice, an outstanding adult palliative care facility serving all of north-west Wales. However, less than 14 per cent of the funding it requires is provided by the Welsh Government and local health board.

Also with a special place in our hearts, in my constituency, is Tŷ Gobaith. Only one month of the hospice's income comes from statutory sources. This simply isn't good enough, and during Hospice Care Week, I called for more statutory support to be provided to Tŷ Gobaith. The charity loses out also as a consequence of the Welsh problem of poor statutory financial support. Welsh Government and local health boards contributed only 12 per cent of the amount children's hospices spend to care for seriously ill children in Wales. In England, the figure is 21 per cent; Scotland, 47 per cent. Welsh hospices deserve more.

Equally bad is equity of distribution, with one children's hospice receiving 8.1 per cent of its expenditure whilst another has 18.2 per cent. A contributory factor is that the funding formula has not been reviewed for a decade. Clearly, recommendation 11 of the report needs to be acted on so that we can be sure that allocations are based on up-to-date population need. Indeed, we have a rapidly changing and ageing population. The number of people aged 65 and over could rise by almost 40 per cent by 2041. Financial allocations need to respect and reflect that, but the solution is not just more money.

We have an opportunity to create a compassionate country. This is about central and local government encouraging, supporting and facilitating the actions of others. Sadly, the Welsh Government has not set a clear vision or milestones, but I am heartened by the fact that hospices are well placed to respond to a national plan. I will be fully supporting this debate today as I am confident that if the issues raised are positively acted on, the provision of palliative care services in Wales would be strengthened. Our people in Wales deserve nothing less.

I'm very pleased to take part in this important debate today, recognising how important end-of-life and palliative care is to so many of our population and their families. It has been for quite some time and it will be, obviously, into the future. As with other Members, I'm very familiar with the work of local hospices and the quality and importance of that work, in my case, largely St David's Hospice, which has been providing that end-of-life and palliative care for some 40 years now, working with the national health service.

I've come across that work, for example, in the Light Up a Life services, which I'm sure other Members have attended around Christmas time, when families at services remember their loved ones who benefitted from the care provided by the hospice, and at those services it's very evident how important it is to the families, how emotional they obviously are about the care that was received and the value of it, and the commitment that they feel to the work of the hospice, not just for the care that their family has experienced, but for people in general. And of course they carry out so much private fundraising work as hospices. I'm sure all of us are very familiar with that. Indeed, I run the Newport half marathon every year, which is a fundraiser for the St David's Hospice, and they do an amazing variety of fundraising work. That really is the fund; their services would sit outside mainstream NHS provision.

But of course, a lot of the unmet need that exists is about provision within the mainstream, and that's where I think we do come to the thorny questions of the level of Welsh Government funding, the adequacy of it, and how it might be developed for the future. I do believe that we need to be constructive and look at the models that exist and how we can recognise the ageing population, the unmet need that exists, and make sure that our hospices are fully equipped to play the role that they play better than anyone else in providing this crucial care and service.

One part of that equation is 'Agenda for Change', because I know that hospices are concerned that they haven't had the pay rise, the 2018-19 pay rise that carries on for three years, passported to them from health boards, and obviously that creates real issues for them. There does seem to be a little lack of clarity. I think the health boards' stance, in part at least, is that they make a general contribution to the services within the mainstream provided by hospices, and that then would cover the 'Agenda for Change' pay increase. That's not a view that is shared by hospices, and I wonder whether the Minister might today provide clarity in terms of his understanding of these issues, which, as I say, are very important to hospices right across Wales.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I think there's no shortage of understanding of the value of the work that the hospices carry out. As we've heard already, so many people would prefer to end their lives at home with families, with friends in familiar surroundings, and very many families want their loved ones to end their lives in that way. Hospices provide the vital support, advice and service that enables that to happen, as well as the in-hospice care. So, I think all of us fully realise the value of this care and indeed the challenges coming from the ageing population and unmet need. So, we have to continue, I believe, working together—the NHS, hospices, Welsh Government and other key partners—if we're going to not just continue the care that is so important and valuable, but further develop it for these future challenges.

For many people, 'hospice' is a frightening word because it is associated with the end of life, but hospices are a way for people to prioritise the wishes of the patient and the family. They offer specialised care and support that works to create ease and comfort and maintain the patient's quality of life. The key to providing comfort in the final days is a comprehensive plan that involves a team of medical and healthcare professionals who address all aspects of a patient's illness, to control and reduce pain and discomfort. Hospice care eases family anxiety, provides counselling and allows patients a chance to die with dignity and respect. Some 23,000 people in Wales have palliative care, and at any one time it includes 1,000 children.

However, despite the importance of providing this vital care service, hospices currently face a number of challenges that impact on their ability to provide sufficient support. A recent inquiry held by the cross-party group on hospices and palliative care found that the hospices are suffering from a lack of financial support from Welsh Government and local health boards. A lack of specialist palliative care staff and community nurses has caused delays in individuals accessing care, worsening unmet need and creating gaps within the services.

Hospices provide a range of service to patients, their families and carers, yet not all of these services are considered to be core NHS provision. The statutory contribution to the funding of charitable hospices does not contribute to the full range of care provided by hospices nor their management and overheads. As a result, hospices often rely on charitable donations to provide services. In 2018, hospices in Wales fundraised over £28 million. Figures from Hospice UK show that Wales has the lowest level of Government funding for adult hospices in the United Kingdom. Adult hospices in Wales receive some 28 per cent of their funding from Government, compared to 33 per cent in England, 34 per cent in Northern Ireland, and 35 per cent in Scotland.

The delivery of palliative care services also varies significantly across Wales, leading to a postcode lottery of services as was mentioned earlier. The Welsh Government's own study stated that those receiving palliative services should have access to high-quality care wherever they live. The cross-party group found that regional variation and inconsistencies exist that could be addressed at a national level. An ad hoc approach to service development contributes to inconsistencies in service provision. Difficulties in collecting and co-ordinating data on palliative care use means that service providers may be unable to adequately plan to meet demand and needs in local areas.

To add to the staffing pressures, specifically the shortages of GPs, district nurses and community paediatric nurses, who co-ordinate and deliver the day-to-day care of people with palliative care needs, it was reported recently that a lack of palliative care consultant cover has restricted bed occupancy at an in-patient unit run by St David's Hospice Care in Newport. Bed occupancy fell from 74 per cent to 53 per cent in 2018. Deputy Presiding Officer, Wales is falling behind other developed nations in providing fair and adequate funding for our hospices. We must recognise the true value of the services hospices provide to the people requiring end-of-life care and their families.

I have personal experience. My father-in-law was diagnosed only a couple of years ago, and 12 months earlier his GP told us that his life may not last for another 12 months. That is shocking news when families are told of these sorts of—whether it's cancer, motor neuron disease, or dementia. These are areas when alarm bells start, and doctors nearly know when the life is going to end. That is the time when our GPs must be giving full support to the family to make sure that they are having the dignity and respect in the family and the care and the desire for their end of life to be with peace, harmony and love among family members, rather than dying alone somewhere. Thank you very much.

I thank the Welsh Conservatives for tabling this important debate, and I'm pleased to take part. We can't put an end to death and dying, but one of the most important things the state can do is ensure our citizens can die with dignity, without pain and with respect. Unfortunately, end-of-life care in Wales is lacking. Around 33,000 people die in Wales each year, yet one in four of those who could benefit from palliative care are missing out.

As highlighted by the cross-party group on hospices and palliative care in their report, a number of factors contribute to unequal access to palliative care, including geography, care setting, diagnosis, age and ethnic background. Poor awareness of hospices and palliative care contributes to either delays in care or the complete absence of suitable end-of-life care. And this is not good enough. How can we as a nation deny our citizens a good death? We have a duty to the people of Wales to ensure equal access to end-of-life care for everyone.

We have to implement Marie Curie's vision of compassionate Cymru. To be a truly compassionate nation, we must not only up our game on end-of-life care, but we must also tackle loneliness and isolation and support those suffering from grief and bereavement. While the Welsh Government can and must do more, so can we all as a society. We have to end the taboos that surround death. Death and dying should not be talked about in hushed whispers. We have to be open about this natural part of life, and whilst we should all do all that we can to delay the inevitable, we must prepare for the eventuality of passing away.

In Scotland, the Good Life, Good Death, Good Grief campaign have developed support packages aimed at creating a Scotland where everyone knows how to help when someone is dying or grieving. They have toolkits aimed at creating support networks in local communities and creating bereavement-friendly places. That is something we can and should replicate in Wales. Let's work towards creating a Wales where people help each other through the difficult times that come with death, dying and loss. Let's encourage Wales's employers to actively support people with terminal illnesses or those suffering with bereavement.

We have so many hurdles to jump before Wales can truly be classed as a compassionate country. And if we are to make compassionate Cymru a reality rather than a pipe dream, then we have to start by adopting the recommendations outlined in 'Inequalities' in access to hospice and palliative care. We must ensure that everyone has access to high-quality end-of-life care first and foremost, and then ensure we have structures in place to help each other during times of loss and grief, both in the workplace and in the community. And I urge colleagues to support this motion before us today. Diolch yn fawr.

I'm delighted to speak in support of this motion today and endorse what colleagues have said in praising the role of hospices and the services that they provide to those experiencing a life-limiting condition and their families. In my own constituency, I'd like to pay tribute to the League of Friends of Llanidloes Hospital. Their palliative care suite was officially opened last year, and I was delighted to attend the launch.

The suite was fully funded by the Llanidloes League of Friends and by the local community, through its own fundraising, as well. The palliative care suite has been absolutely invaluable to the community of Llanidloes and the surrounding areas, allowing people to access care and support outside a hospital setting. And it's designed in such a way that it's just so appropriate for families and younger children as well to visit family members that are using that facility. While I'm sure that we all recognise the important role that hospices and palliative care centres have within the wider care services provision, no funding—no funding—was provided by either the health board or the Welsh Government to support the establishment of Llanidloes palliative care suite. And this situation is replicated across the country.

And I agree with my colleague Mark Isherwood with regard to the lack of statutory funding from the Welsh Government, which results in financial pressures that restrict the ability of hospices to provide services due to the lack of specialist palliative care staff. So, it's now time, I do think, that the funding formula, which is 10 years old, is reviewed to reflect the recent changes in population need and to end the postcode lottery that exists, and the overreliance on the voluntary and charitable sectors. And I put this question to the Minister: is it right that, as I've outlined, it's up to communities and the League of Friends to raise funds themselves for a palliative care facility? Without that facility, people in that area would have to travel miles—miles—in order to visit family and loved ones. So, I do think we need to see some more leadership from health boards as well as the Welsh Government to deliver a more proactive approach to help hospices and palliative care suites meet future funding and operational challenges.

In conclusion, Presiding Officer, hospices and palliative care centres in Wales certainly need more statutory support to allow them to continue to provide the level of service and support they currently deliver to those coming towards the end of their lives, so we don't fall behind other devolved nations in providing fair and adequate funding for hospices.

I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services, Vaughan Gething. 

Thank you, Llywydd. I do want to thank the Conservatives for bringing this important issue to the Chamber today, and all Members who have contributed. I have listened to what speakers have had to say, and I recognise a number of the points that have been made. And, overall, we're broadly supportive of the motion. The Government amendment has been tabled to draw together the commitments we have made, the progress under way, and to indicate our approach for the future. I recognise that not every Member will agree with it, but I recognise that people are broadly pointing in the same direction.

I recognise that 33,000 people die in Wales each year and, at any one time, 23,000 people, including 1,000 children and young people, will require palliative care. We know that good palliative care can make a huge difference to the quality of life of people facing life-limiting illness, helping them to live as well as possible and to die with dignity, and for family and loved ones, good palliative care provides a significant amount of support and makes a great deal of difference to their futures, too.

The Welsh Government remains committed to ensuring that anyone requiring palliative care in Wales should have access to the best possible care. So, our palliative care and end-of-life care delivery plan sets out how we are and how we will improve our services, and that plan is, of course, overseen by an end-of-life care board.

We invest over £8.4 million annually to support specialist palliative care services and to take forward the actions in the delivery plan. We are making real progress. We have resources and facilities in place to support advance care planning to ensure that adults and children are central to the design of their care; we have a single all-Wales 'Do not attempt cardiopulmonary resuscitation' form to ensure that people's wishes are respected; and we have a serious illness conversation training programme to ensure that our staff are equipped to handle what can be very difficult conversations with clarity and compassion.

Much of this good work was highlighted in the cross-party group on hospices and palliative care report, which the Welsh Government has broadly welcomed. The recommendations of that report have helped to provide an additional focus as we continue to strive for excellence in this area of care.

Many of those recommendations have either been or are being addressed. There are some that remain outstanding and are being considered as part of the wider stock-take exercise that the end-of-life care board is undertaking. That includes the gaps in data collection for adult and paediatric care needs.

I recognise some of the comments made about comparisons between UK nations' funding, and they're difficult to make—it's not quite a straight-line formula because of the way that the different parts of our NHS in each nation work with hospices in each country. My ambition, and my approach, is to understand the level of need in Wales and then to set out how we will address it, because hospices are central to our approach to end-of-life care and the support they provide to patients, families and carers, and I do not underestimate that.

Once the stock take is complete, we will work with the end-of-life care board and health boards to review the formula mechanism used to allocate funding to adult and children's hospices in Wales. From the specific point that was mentioned about 'Agenda for Change', I can confirm I wrote to hospices in February this year confirming that local health boards will fund any additional cost pressures created by the new contract to charitable hospices in Wales that employ staff on an 'Agenda for Change' contract to provide NHS services.

Would you take an intervention, Minister?

Yes.

Thank you for that comment, where you're going to write to—or you've written to—the health boards. But could I also draw your attention to the fact that a lot of hospice services provided in the community are currently being funded through clusters? And as you and I know, one of the principles behind a cluster is that the clusters use their funding to pilot and start up ideas. The comments that have come back to me from organisations such as Paul Sartori are that once that cluster funding comes to an end, the LHBs aren't necessarily able or willing to take on and carry on the momentum behind initiatives that are working very successfully, so, constantly, the wheel is having to be reinvented, and I wonder if you might comment on that.

Well, I think there are two points there, aren't there? There's one about end-of-life care, which is a significant priority in primary care, which is no surprise given the profile of our population and the numbers involved, and there's much greater engagement and involvement from primary care in providing good end-of-life care—it's part of standard business in primary care, so not just our district nurses and our GPs. There is something there about our end-of-life care work that is definitely about how we deliver that in primary care.

The second point, I guess, is part of what Paul Sartori are also—. I visited them, and it was a very enjoyable and instructive visit too. There's something broader about the way in which we recycle moneys from primary care clusters, and I'll have more to say about funding primary care clusters when we get to some of the detail of the budget. You'll have to bear with me for a relatively brief period of time.

Going back to some of the comparisons made in work in other parts of the UK, we're aware of the work commissioned in Scotland by children's hospices across Scotland to understand their level of unmet paediatric palliative care need and to identify their population and demographic characteristics. NHS National Services Scotland, who undertook that work in 2018, have been invited to the next end-of-life care board in December to see what we in Wales can learn from that work and how best to apply it.

Alongside this, we are working with Tŷ Hafan and other hospices to understand the scale of service and workforce development that will be required to meet future palliative care needs in Wales. So, we continue to work closely with both statutory and third sector partners to deliver on our ambition that I set out to become the world's first compassionate country. To do so, we must be a nation that publicly facilitates, supports and celebrates care for one another during life's most testing times, especially those relating to life-threatening and life-limiting illness, to chronic disability, frail ageing, dementia, grief, and long-term care. Now, with collaboration and co-operation, we will support our communities to become more resilient to be able to cope with the challenges that life brings. And I really am grateful to Byw Nawr and the end-of-life care board for driving the compassionate country work forward in Wales, and I'll be meeting Byw Nawr again in the new year.

All of us, though, in our interactions with public and private sector organisations, can encourage them to embed this approach in everything that they do as well. As Members will know, the end-of-life-care board has been working with Cardiff University, Marie Curie and the Wales Cancer Research Centre to review the level of bereavement services across Wales, and that final report was received by officials and the end-of-life care board last week. They are currently considering the findings. I will provide an update to Members in due course, but I'm happy to confirm that it will be published ahead of the December end-of-life care board meeting, and I'll make sure that's directly provided to Members, as I know there is significant interest across parties in the work of that review. I'm also happy to confirm that I intend to make a Government statement in the new year on end-of-life care and how the information in the bereavement review's work will be taken forward.

So, to conclude, I believe we can be proud as a country of the significant progress we have made to widen access to hospice and palliative care here in Wales, but we know that there is more to do. So, we'll continue to work closely with the end-of-life care board and all of our statutory and third sector partners to make sure that everyone in Wales has access to high-quality end-of-life care in their location of choice.

I call on Angela Burns to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Presiding Officer, and I'd like to thank everyone who's taken part in this debate today because, of course, it touches on a subject that will affect all of us at one point or another in our lives, whether it's, well, ourselves, obviously, our loved ones, our families, our friends. I do want to pay tribute to Mark Isherwood, because, as the chair of that cross-party group, he has really, really shown great commitment and dedication to this area, and I don't think, actually, Mark, we recognise some of the work that you do on some of these less fashionable subjects. I'm very grateful, and I know that most of the Assembly is as well.

Everyone who's spoken—I'm not going to gallop around you all, but I want to say that many of you actually referenced wonderful examples in your own constituencies, and, through you, I think we should pay a great duty of thanks to all of those organisations for the work that they do in helping people through what must be one of the greatest transitions any of us will ever make, from this life to wherever we may be going afterwards.

Minister, you did—. Actually, before I come to you, Minister, Helen Mary Jones, your contribution was absolutely spot on. We accept your amendments to our motion. You picked up on very important points—the point about supporting carers through this and, of course, the fact that there's a variety of need out there and people will want to die in a hospital, they'll want to die in their home, they'll want to die in a hospice. It's down to that individual. They have that right at the end of their life to make that choice, and you're absolutely spot on. Thank you for both of those amendments.

Minister, I was marginally enraged when I first saw the Government amendment, because I do think that, as a Government, you tend to reach for the 'delete all' pen and not look behind the politics. But you drew my sting by explaining some of why you had done that and about the fact you were trying to pull it all together in a way that reflected what you were doing here so far, and no-one is disputing that there have been efforts made, strides made, there are plans in places. I was concerned, though, that the Government deleted the bit that acknowledged 23,000 people in Wales as having a palliative care need, including 1,000 children. Now, I know you mentioned it in your speech, but I think the reason why it was very important for that to be on the face of the motion is, because unless we know that that's what the need is, and no-one really talked here about the fact that we don't have the resource in place—. You know, like other parts of the health service, we do not have enough palliative care nurses, we do not have enough people with those specialist skills to help people through a very difficult time. Because you do need to have a certain ability, to have empathy, understanding—you know, it's a bit like having specialist nurses like Macmillan for cancer sufferers; you need to have that resource in place. And I think that if we could have a view of how many more specialist people we would need with the skills and the knowledge and the experience to provide palliative care, that is key. And recognising how many people need palliative care is actually a starting point.

That's what we're going to do—[Inaudible.]

Yes, but my point was that you deleted it from the motion and yet I think that knowing that number is very, very key.

Very, very quickly, actions on the recommendations made by the cross-party group is what we're seeking; a concerted drive to address the gaps in data collection, that the data collected is reported consistently and transparently—you've talked about the review of funding.

I think that I would just like to end by saying that we need to remember what this is all about. This is about helping somebody die well, and it's about helping their family to live through that experience and be able to move forward knowing that they did all they could for their loved one. So, if we truly want to be a compassionate country—and I have absolutely no doubt that we do—I think it behoves us to act with leadership, with real responsibility and real kindness, and this is why we've brought forward this motion. I'm sorry the Government had to amend it the way that they did, but I would ask the Members of this house to read our motion, to look at Plaid Cymru's amendments and to vote for the motion and for those amendments.

The proposal is to agree the unamended motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I defer voting until voting time.

The next item is the Plaid Cymru debate on rolling stock strategy, and I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move the motion.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I'm pleased to have the opportunity to move this motion today, which relates directly to the everyday lives of thousands of people. How we travel for work or for leisure has a major impact on our standard of living. It has an impact on our economic opportunities as individuals and as communities. The quality, availability and choices in terms of transport can influence our health, and also affects the environment. That's why, in the context of rail, the last franchise period was so painful for us here in Wales. I felt for those working for Arriva very often, because the very grave failings of that franchise were largely based on the way in which it was created by the UK Government back in the early years of devolution.

That's why I have been very willing to give guarded support to the new model that we have, giving more accountability, allowing us to move to a period of growth in terms of rail in Wales, and allowing us to be more ambitious through the Transport for Wales model. Perhaps because of that hope, people have been so disappointed to see some of the intense problems that have cast a shadow over the first few months of Transport for Wales Rail. When we see trains being cancelled, trains being overcrowded, and delivery of new trains being postponed time and time again, that's the exact thing that we needed not to see as Welsh Government tried to regain the confidence of the people of Wales in their train services.

One of those problems is the future of the Pacer trains, which are trains that are used by thousands of people. There are genuine concerns that the slowness of the Government in terms of forward planning in terms of rolling stock is leading us now into a very uncertain period for passengers. What we're trying to do through this motion today is look for that assurance that we haven't had so far, although we've raised this issue several times—myself and several Members on these benches in this Senedd.

I've learnt a lot about trains since being elected as AM. I used to do what most people do—just get on a train. It would, hopefully, get me to where I would want to go, roughly on time, hopefully, and that was it, really. But I've learned that making that happen is a pretty complex matter.

One of the things I learnt early on as a member of the Enterprise and Business Committee in the last Assembly is that just getting a train is problematic in itself. Trains are hard to come by, quite often—a problem that has been particularly acute in Wales, much of that, again, down to the abysmal specification of the last franchise. 'Cascading' sounds almost romantic—the idea of cascading trains from one user to another. It means passing on your old stock to another user, possibly doing it up a bit on the way, passing it on to another one, passing it on to another one—I should say 'cascading' it on to another one. Wales, more often than not, was at the bottom of the cascade, with second, third, fourth hand, decades-old trains in many instances.

It is exciting that there is a programme of delivering new rolling stock in years to come, although it is way, way overdue, of course. The rolling stock companies, by the way, the ROSCOs, were set up by the Tories to take over the previously publicly owned rolling stock. It was discovered that they could make much more money, not by renewing rolling stock, but by overcharging for ageing, cascaded stock. So, we've suffered the blunt edge of that here in Wales.

But, as we move towards the end of this year, the trains that we have now, the old, cascaded stock, a lot of it, have to go because of PRM-compliance issues, the need for accessibility on all our trains. Now, we've known this was coming for some time, and we've also known that we have a problem with procuring rolling stock. We, as a committee in the last Assembly, warned Welsh Government, 'Even though there are years to go until the end of that franchise, you have to be planning for new rolling stock to take us into the next franchise.' Now, with the PRM compliance issue in particular, we now know that Welsh Government did not act quickly enough to seek a dispensation to continue using non-compliant trains after the end of this year, when it became clear that new trains wouldn't be available on time.

There are serious consequences to not getting that dispensation. The removal of non-compliant Pacers from service would result in a loss of nearly half the rolling stock used for Valleys lines. There are also several other trains that are non-PRM compliant that would be grounded, along with the Pacers, should the necessary dispensation not be in place by 1 January 2020, including—it's not just Valleys trains—some trains currently used for the Holyhead service. Services could be axed on other parts of the network—for example, Fishguard, Wrexham, Holyhead—in order to maximise the rolling stock available for use on the Valleys lines, those busy, busy commuter lines.

Now, at a recent drop-in session in the Assembly, Transport for Wales said that they would be using a two-car Pacer train coupled to a PRM-compliant Sprinter to ensure the trains are compliant, even if parts of the train are non-compliant, and I think Transport for Wales have been saying that on Twitter too. A recent press release, though, stating that they'll be using the Pacers predominantly as four-car sets on the Rhymney line, seems to contradict the information coming from other Transport for Wales sources. But the fleet data would suggest that there aren't enough compliant sets, there aren't enough Sprinters, in order to enable even that plan, and that Transport for Wales would have to run some trains as Pacer only.

Now, it's not only Wales that has been unable to get new trains on time. Northern Rail were also in a similar position, but they got the dispensation, and our concern here is that Welsh Government, even though, as our motion states, they were warned years ago about the need to plan for changes in rolling stock, to plan for a future in that context where we know rolling stock is hard to come by, but where there are serious procurement issues. Welsh Government did not act until it was too late, and I have not yet heard from Welsh Government an assurance other than that they are in active discussions with the Department for Transport and the UK Government, and that these discussions are ongoing.

You mentioned the Rhymney line. I've raised these concerns myself directly with Transport for Wales, and the contact I've had with Transport for Wales has said that we expect DfT to provide us with what we need in plenty of time. That is what they've said to me.

Okay. Have you had that assurance?

I've had the assurance from Transport for Wales.

'Expecting it to happen', but I haven't yet heard what passengers using these trains from day to day need to hear, which is that this will happen, because having an assurance that talks are ongoing, that they hope things will be okay, that they trust that people can get together to resolve the issue, isn't good enough, because if you add the general election into the mix, the Christmas recess coming up, there's a concern that, even if dispensation is granted now, and even if they can come to some agreement, there may not be sufficient time left before 31 December to complete all necessary paperwork.

They expect them by the end of November.

Well, wonderful, but we need to see that now, and it does not take away from the issue that this has already been resolved. In other areas, Northern Rail in particular, where they took that action on time, they managed to get the dispensation. Now, whether Welsh Government was chancing that there wouldn't be a UK election, that there wouldn't be other distractions for civil servants, I'm not sure, but we need that announcement from Welsh Government here today that this is happening and not that talks are ongoing, otherwise commuters, rail users using these trains, dependent on these trains for their well-being, for their work, will be hugely concerned as we head towards the last day of 2019.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion, and I call on the Minister for Economy and Transport to formally move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. 

I move.

I now call on Russell George to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Russell George. 

Diolch, Presiding Officer. I formally move amendment 2 in the name of my colleague Darren Millar. Can I congratulate Plaid on a very well crafted motion and indicate our full support today? The Government's amendment today was not well crafted, as it does fail to recognise the responsibility for provision of capacity for Welsh services and Wales-only services under the railway franchise that was operated by Arriva Trains Wales. That was a matter for the Welsh Government and has been since 2006, and this is the basis of my amendment today in the name of Darren Millar and to the point to which I want to speak about in my contribution.

The Government amendment points to investment in rolling stock over the next 15 years. That's very welcome, but what on earth, I would say, has happened for the last 13 years, which is the point that we need to debate today? This is the subject of the debate today. The Welsh Government have been peddling a myth. It's a myth that the rolling stock has been a matter for the UK Government. That is not true. It is a matter for the Welsh Government and it has been for the past decade and more. The truth is that responsibilities were passed from the Department for Transport to the Welsh Assembly Government, as it was then, in a joint parties agreements that came into operation on 1 April 2006. Therefore, the Plaid Cymru motion is entirely correct, stating that the Welsh Government has failed to take responsibility or take appropriate action to address the issues with capacity on Wales-only rail services not just since 2013, as it happens, but as far back as 2006.

The Government amendment also requests that the UK Government should work with devolved administrations to develop a different model for the rolling stock system, but it has to be remembered that the Welsh Government has had full discretion under the devolution arrangements since the joint parties agreement was agreed, and that funding attributed to Wales-only and Welsh services has been transferred to the Welsh Government under a separate agreement since April 2006, and that has been part of the baseline block grant from the Treasury since April 2008. But, of course, the Government do know this, because the Government are aware of this and the Government made its own funding available for additional carriages back in 2007.

And, as Rhun mentioned, the Welsh Government was warned in 2013 by the Enterprise and Business Committee that it must address rolling stock issues as a matter of urgency, and it failed to heed those warnings. I think the Minister was a member of that committee for some time. I'm not sure if he was a member when those recommendations were made and which the Government then sadly rejected. We have words bandied around from the Government in regard to the previous franchise holder, of 'handing over appalling trains', and suggestions that Transport for Wales have inherited rolling stock akin to a 30-year-old Ford Escort with the clutch out of order and brakes not working, and it's been said that some equipment passed over was infected with dead rats. But the reality is that the buck stops with the Welsh Government in relation to the state of trains in Wales and planning for rolling stock. The Welsh Government did not act when they should have back in 2013, if not earlier.

The current service, as well, as has been pointed out in the opening contribution, is still completely unacceptable. Over recent months, we continue to see cancelled trains, delayed trains, lack of staff, signalling problems, capacity problems, lack of quality information to passengers, and overcrowding, and this is unacceptable by anyone's standards and hardly the immediate transformation that was promised by the Government.

The Plaid motion today, I think, has hit the nail on the head in terms of the present situation and, disappointingly, the Government has done a more or less 'delete all' to the motion put forward today. So, I look forward to further contributions to this debate this afternoon, Presiding Officer.

There's no doubt that people are frustrated by the state of the rail network and, in many cases, as frustrated as they were under Arriva. But there's also no doubting the fact that the Government is going to deliver a radically reformed transport service in the next three years. I don’t think there's any dispute about that, and that's clearly what the Minister intends and what will be delivered. However, I would recognise, in the last six weeks alone, I've been contacted on three separate occasions about cancellations, overcrowding and the associated health and safety issues, about more overcrowding, leaking carriages, and the price of season tickets, and about more cancellations and delays. So, there has been an array of complaints that have taken place over the past six weeks that have been unacceptable to rail users, and I think that's absolutely the case.

I think, perhaps, the problem we've got is that when Transport for Wales took over the rail service, some of the language used by the Minister perhaps was a little bit overselling what was likely to happen immediately. So, for example, when the Minister was questioned in the Chamber, he talked about unwrapping the presents, and he made much of the fact that the committee report said that the Minister had heroic ambition. And I think he does have heroic ambition, and I think he will deliver it, but I think what we didn’t do and what the Government didn't do was explain that the transformation would not be overnight, and I think there was a degree of expectation that was a little high with what could be delivered. I think that's a fair analysis of what's happened.

What I don’t think is a fair analysis of what has happened is some of the things that both Rhun ap Iorwerth and Russell George have said, particularly as the information that I've had from Transport for Wales today—and this is quoting Transport for Wales—says,

'We expect to have the written approval regarding the derogation before the end of November.'

This is what I've been told directly by Transport for Wales. If that's the case, then it entirely undermines the spirit of the motion.

Will you take an intervention?

I will.

Would you also agree that the Pacers were meant to have gone by the end of 2019, and that was a promise too? Promises get broken.

Yes, and there's an issue with rolling stock across the United Kingdom, and I think it would be foolhardy to remove Pacers when people want a seat on the train. It would be foolhardy to remove Pacers when there is nothing to replace them with. As a committee member, I've been to the Canton depot three times and I've seen the heroic work that is going on there to keep the rolling stock together. There is simply no other rolling stock available in this country to put directly on the line to replace the Pacers immediately. [Interruption.]  I'm not going to take another intervention, because I won't have much time.

The other thing I'd say is Russell George knows very well, because he was Chair of the committee that took the evidence when the Welsh Government told us—the Minister told us—that the Welsh Government went to the UK Government in 2011 to request support to bring in diesel capacity to the Welsh lines, and the UK Government said to the Welsh Government, 'Under no circumstances must you have any more diesel stock on that line because diesel will be obsolete very soon because we're going to electrify the lines.' That never happened, that diesel stock was never allowed to be bought. And the Chair of committee—who I like, I like Russell George very much as Chair of committee; I like him less in his position as a spokesperson for the Conservative Party—knows very well that that's exactly what was said. 

The point I would make is—and you said you disagreed with some of my points, but I'm not quite sure which points you were disagreeing with—that I stand by what I said, Hefin. The Department for Transport wrote back to the committee, actually, clarifying the position that I outlined today, that the rolling stock has been the responsibility of the Welsh Government since the agreement reached in 2006. That was the point I was making.

And the UK Government gave the Welsh Government absolutely no support and it actively prevented them from bringing new diesel stock onto the lines. That was prevented. I'm sure the Minister can elaborate further on that, as I'm absolutely sure he didn't mislead our committee.

I also want to pay tribute to Transport for Wales, who've been very open. When I was elected in 2016, I met with Ian Bullock, who was then chief executive of Arriva Trains Wales, and I met with Tom Joyner, and as a result, leading into the era of James Price at Transport for Wales, we have had extra rolling stock delivered on the Rhymney line. I have seen, for example, Transport for Wales introducing the popular class 37 loco-hauled stock on the Rhymney line. I'm worried, when that's going to go, people won't be happy. From 15 December, the Valleys lines will see more four-carriage trains on peak services, 6,500 extra seats. We are seeing improvement. And what I've seen personally as Assembly Member for Caerphilly are extra seats at peak times, morning and evening, on the Rhymney to Cardiff line. These have been delivered directly as a result of the pressure that I've put on Arriva and Transport for Wales, and working with them and their—let's use the word—heroic staff to deliver these extra seats. The stock is not up to standard, but the staff are and they're delivering that quality service. I am confident that we're going to see a transformed service in the three years, but, in the meantime, what we've got are heroic Transport for Wales staff keeping that stock on the line. 

The Valleys lines face serious problems on a daily basis, as do lines throughout the south-east of Wales. I know this from my own experience and from the complaints I see from constituents. Just this morning, a two-carriage train was used at peak time between Ebbw Vale and Cardiff, with people complaining on social media of being packed in like sardines and feeling unsafe. My own train in this morning from Abercynon was packed before it arrived at our station so people were standing the whole way down. People weren't able to get on and we arrived in Queen Street nearly 15 minutes late. It's something that happens day after day, and it's true on the Merthyr, Aberdare and Rhymney lines. Morning after morning of being late, only to face the same problems travelling home after work. We're told when we complain that all the carriages available are in use. In other words, Transport for Wales has insufficient rolling stock available to provide an acceptable level of service on too many days.

The Government has committed, as has been said, to introduce four trains per hour on the Rhymney line in 2022. Well, these added trains are needed now, so I'm particularly concerned to learn that this deadline doesn't seem to be reflected in TfW's annual report, which instead says 2023. And they've actually indicated to us that they're looking at December 2023, which means passengers won't feel the benefit for nearly four years. So, I'd appreciate if the Minister can confirm when he expects we'll have those four trains per hour on the Rhymney line. It's worth pointing out as well that we used to have four services per hour on this line past Bargoed when TfW took over the service last year. So, it currently looks like it's going to take five years just to bring us back to square one.

I'm also concerned about the proposed drop in capacity on these trains when the 769s are replaced by new trains in 2023. We expect, I understand, a reduction in overall capacity of 24 per cent during peak times, and a reduction of 35 per cent in seated capacity between Caerphilly and Bargoed. These figures have been confirmed by TfW in a freedom of information request. Given that lines are overcrowded now, it defies comprehension that we're actually looking at a reduction in capacity in the future. I look to the Minister for assurance that he will look into this matter and take action to prevent this drop in capacity from happening. 

Now, looking further east in my region, train passengers face their own problems because of a lack of trains. Work to dual the line between Ebbw Vale and Cardiff was halted until the Welsh Government published a new feasibility study. Now, this was supposed to be published by the summer, but I'm not aware of this having happened, so I'd be grateful for an update on these plans. As I understand it, unless this work is done, it won't be possible to increase the number of trains per hour between Newport and Ebbw Vale from one to two, and there is huge demand for this to happen. 

Staying in this part of my region, I'd also like to ask what's going on with plans to reopen stations at Crumlin and Magor. There are dedicated campaigners in my region who are passionate about reopening these stations, and I'd welcome a meeting with the Minister to discuss their case. The 2017 national transport finance plan makes reference to reopening Crumlin station as part of phase 3 of work surrounding the metro, but this commitment isn't in the equivalent report for 2018. And in terms of Magor, it's referenced in the metro document, but absent from the national transport finance plan since 2015. So, I'd welcome some clarity from the Minister about his plans for these stations. 

Finally, something that all train commuters will be unhappy about is the increasing cost of travelling by train at the precise time of climate emergency when we should be looking to incentivise public transport. People feel they're paying more for an inadequate service. I'd like to query whether the fare reduction that was promised by the First Minister on 12 November will be implemented in January, as he indicated. The Transport for Wales website currently shows no such reduction in fares in January, so I'd be grateful for some clarity on that point.

If the Llywydd will allow me, I think the time will just quickly allow me to raise one final point. The safety of passengers has to be paramount. We've heard reference, and I agree totally, in terms of the heroic staff that we have in Transport for Wales, but I was on a train recently that stopped in Treforest because a passenger had a knife and was behaving threateningly. The staff and the police acted quickly and very efficiently in that case, but it does illustrate how important it is that we have sufficient numbers of conductors on the trains, especially late at night, when people have been drinking and there are concerns about safety. So I'd welcome anything the Minister could say to reassure us on that point.

Whilst there are a number of elements in the Plaid Cymru debate we are able to support, we also acknowledge and support a number of the Labour amendments. Under item 1 and 2(a), Plaid are right to point out that, as long ago as 2013, the then Enterprise and Business Committee proposed that the Welsh Government develop a strategy with regard to rolling stock, but we have to acknowledge that this was difficult for the Welsh Government to implement under the previous rail franchise, which Rhun has rightly criticised. 

Under item 2(b), although it is highly regrettable that all trains cannot be made PRM compliant by 2020, and notwithstanding the arguments about dispensation, we must be mindful that there have been huge difficulties with assessing suitable rolling stock, which has severely affected the Government's ability to comply. 

We fully support the call outlined in item 2(c) and would endorse the proposed approach to the UK Government.

I would also express concern at the continuing disruption to rail passengers in the transition period from the old franchise to the new collaborative set-up between Transport for Wales and KeolisAmey, but we have to accept that it will take time for these new working practices to bed in. 

Whilst we can't accept the 'delete all' element of the Government's amendment, we do acknowledge and accept all the other points in their amendments. We would further add to the third amendment that it was not only the cancellation of the electrification of the Swansea line, but there were a number of other electrification projects throughout England that also had the effect of limiting the rolling stock that could have been—and I'm not saying this as a derogatory element, Rhun—cascaded and available to the Welsh Government, had these projects gone ahead. We fully endorse the Government's claims in items 4 and 5 and would also urge the UK Government to take note of these demands.

We acknowledge the correctness of the amendment tabled by Darren Millar, but would point out that the conditions under which that franchise was set up did make it difficult for the Welsh Government to act in a way that could be endorsed by the Welsh public—i.e. spending money to subsidise a profitable private company.

Following on from this debate, we would, of course, urge the Welsh Government to continue in their endeavours to secure the very best options in rolling stock as soon as it is able, but let us acknowledge that this cannot be done overnight.

Minister, I'm very pleased that we have this opportunity today, because it enables me to highlight again the case for a new walkway station at Magor, which I know you're very familiar with, and, indeed, was mentioned by Delyth earlier. There is great community support for a new station there as part of the UK new stations fund. Work has been done, stages have been gone through and further stages remain. Monmouthshire County Council is committed to providing funding, with the Welsh Government being looked to for matching money to enable that further work, as part of the UK new stations process, to proceed. I know you're very well aware of all of these issues, Minister, but I wonder whether there's anything you might say today in terms of an update, given that the local community are very eager to learn of any new developments or progress. 

Would you take just a very short—? Can I fully endorse what John is saying with regard to the Magor station? I think you have to now acknowledge exactly the work that's been put in in order to get that station. I really do feel you ought to make the funds available, Minister, for that scheme to go ahead.

Thank you for that support, David, on what is an issue that certainly unites the local community, and I know many Assembly Members have been involved with it. 

I'd also like to echo what Delyth said about the Ebbw Vale to Newport passenger rail link, because this is a matter that is so long-standing, and there's such an obvious gap in local services that, again, communities feel very strongly that progress—timely progress and sufficient progress—needs to be made. Again, I wonder if, Minister, there's any update that you might be able to provide. 

The other matter I'd like to mention is the CAF train manufacturing facility in my constituency. I'm very pleased to say that as part of manufacturing and industry in Wales we now have this train manufacturer here, which I think is very valuable—it's very successful already. It's a tremendous sight to see those trains being built at the plant, and it's very valuable to discuss issues with staff and management there. They take a very obvious pride in what's now taking place in Wales, and I'm sure everybody here would do the same.

But, as ever, there are issues that need to be addressed, one of which is a relief line, which needs to be built to enable the testing of electric trains and is also very important for major events in Cardiff, allowing trains to be on that line waiting to be called upon to provide those additional services and prevent queuing and chaos in our capital city. So, again, if there's any update on when that might be built, Minister, I'd be very grateful, because, obviously, the sooner the better.

Another matter is a forum for rail firms in Wales. I think we're really lucky to have this development now at CAF in Newport. It's felt that if all the players in the rail industry in Wales were brought together in a forum to share experience, to share ideas, to co-operate and to collaborate for mutual benefit, and to be a strong voice for the industry in Wales, that would be valuable, and I wonder what the Minister might do to facilitate that.

A final matter, really, is the skilled workforce that CAF require. It's very noticeable when you walk around the plant that the engineers are very heavily male in gender, and this contrasts greatly to the situation in the Basque Country, where CAF are based, where it's approximately 50/50 between men and women for their engineers. So, we know I know already, but this really illustrates the need to change culture, to change mindsets. I know it's an issue for schools and colleges, but for Welsh Government and for all of us, really. Because there are very rewarding careers that are not being accessed by women to the extent that they should be at CAF and in general, and, of course, firms such as CAF are missing out on half of our population in terms of the skilled workforce that they require and they would benefit from. So, there's work to do on a number of issues, but I just think it's a fantastic asset for Wales to have that plant in my constituency. I'm very lucky to have it there, and I think Wales is very lucky to have it as a country.

I sometimes feel great sympathy for the Minister because John, Hefin, other Members here, and myself, get up and we incessantly labour on about the particular interests in our own communities. But we make no excuse for this because I sometimes feel like I'm doing running surgeries when I travel back and forth every day from Maesteg to Cardiff. There, I sit down and speak to people on everything under the sun, but it is very often rail services. And there is excitement, I have to say, about the changes, some of which are imminent—and I'll turn to those on my own stretch of the track at the moment—but also some frustration on the things that have been said.

It's great to see that there are more and more rail passenger users. That's a testimony to the fact that people are now switching on to those modes; they're seeing congestion on the roads and so on. But I have to say, I'm fortunate in that I get on the train in Maesteg or Ewenny Road or in Garth, I'm always guaranteed a seat; even on match days, I'm guaranteed a seat. But actually, even on a normal day in peak time, by the time you get to Bridgend, it's filling up; Llanharan, it's full up; Pontyclun, it's standing room only. But there are ways through this. So, I do welcome the fact—. I'm going out tomorrow to look at the refurbished and ultra-modernised class 170 carriages that are being introduced—bigger capacity, more seats, more space, more comfort, with passenger information on board, which we do not have on the current trains, with proper functioning Wi-Fi, we hope, as well. Also with fully accessible toilets, et cetera, et cetera. I'm looking forward to seeing those because those, for my line, will make a real difference at those times when we get to the Llanharan and the Pontycluns, to have more capacity, more seating capacity, is not only what we need and what we absolutely need purely for health and safety, because I've travelled enough on the London tube to know what it looks like, and from Pontyclun inwards, it looks like that increasingly now at peak times. But these carriages will help because they will increase capacity. So, I'm looking forward to seeing those tomorrow.

I'm looking forward, as well, to seeing them introduced not just on the regular routes but also on the Sunday service, which is coming on 15 December to Maesteg. Our line has been without a Sunday service forever and a day. People who are alive now, who are 50 years of age, have never seen a Sunday service, myself included. This will be the first time we see it. This idea of creating a seven-day-a-week network, where people cannot only travel for the January sales or in to work in Bridgend and Cardiff on the rail, but also can come up to see us as well, and to see the annual festival we do of choral voices and so on. They can come up to visit us on the train, or they can go walking or cycling up on our hills by coming on the train with it. This is critical.

But I do think we're going through a difficult time, and the difficult time is that transition between the high expectations that everybody has, the massive investment that is unprecedented investment that is going to be going into these, and the realisation of that when people are still, on a day-by-day basis, struggling. But I am more of a half glass full than a half glass empty, and I sympathise with people, but I don't sympathise with them by sitting behind a desk thinking, 'Oh, isn't it awful?' I'm doing it every day as well. I do see it.

So, we do need to keep our foot on the pedal here, and I know the Minister will. He'll be harangued by me about things like how we can release more capacity on the rail by dealing with the Pencoed crossing and the Pencoed bridge. That is critical to some of the things that have been talked about, because if we can get more frequency of services by dealing with the crossing issue there, along that mainline stretch, we can have not just more carriages, but more trains more frequently going up and down.

The investment along the Maesteg stretch of the Maesteg to Bridgend line, in order to get on a single line track, two an hour, maybe three an hour in future or whatever, well, I'm looking forward to seeing the results of the study that the Minister has commissioned on this because I'm really hopeful that in relatively short order, we will be able to signal to people that there is a way forward. I'm sure it'll mean spending some money, but to actually see that, on a busy Monday morning between 7 a.m. and 9 a.m., we don't have just two trains—one at 6.50 a.m. and one at 8.04 a.m., but we'll have four trains actually getting us into Bridgend and Cardiff. That's in line with what you're trying to do with the wider network, so we'd like a part of that as well, but we know it will require some significant investment.

And that is my frustration with this as well, I have to say, looking at the hard facts and figures of the lack of investment in the hard rail infrastructure over many, many years from the UK Government. And this isn't a political point, it's a point of darn frustration that we could've fixed things in our area and moved to digital loop, for example, with the Tondu loop, to increase the frequency of that—we could've done that 20 years ago if the money hadn't been sucked down to the south-east of England. Now, we've still got a guy who walks up and down the stairs from the signal box to hand over a key to the carriage that comes past. This is Victorian trains. It's very cute and quaint, but for goodness' sake—.

So, Minister, keep on pushing hard on this. There is frustration out there, but I think every time we see progress with the 170s on my line, followed by brand new rolling stock a few years down the line, Sunday service on 15 December—each one of those will give confidence to people that we're going in the right direction.

I call on the Minister for Economy and Transport, Ken Skates.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'll begin by just stating again—and it's something that I've said before—that we made a very deliberate decision at the start of the franchise procurement not to tie the hands of bidders by preparing a rolling stock strategy, in line with the advice that we received from industry leaders and observers at the time, and which has been subsequently widely recognised as being the basis for our new approach to the railway. We wanted to allow bidders maximum flexibility to innovate.

Now, if, six years ago, we had chosen what types of trains we wanted to run across Wales, the scope for fresh thinking would've been severely hampered. For example, how would we have ensured that half of the new trains would be built in Wales, given that CAF—Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles—hadn't even begun looking at Wales at that time? Would we have developed a new, low-cost approach to overhead electrification? Would Members have accepted a strategy that relied upon battery, overhead and diesel hybrid trains? How would we have balanced the ambitions for a flexible metro with on-street running within a fixed budget envelope?

I was a Member of that committee and I feel that the recommendation of a rolling stock strategy at the time was foolish, because no strategy written in 2013 or thereafter would've dealt with the issues that I've already outlined, or taken full advantage of technology that is only becoming available in the second half of this decade. We deliberately wanted to harness the collective thinking of our four competitive bidders to develop the most appropriate solution—a solution that maximised the outcomes we set out at the start of the procurement exercise, but fixed within a funding envelope.

Now, whilst not wishing to dwell on the past, it's also important to set the record straight about what control and influence the Welsh Government held back in 2013 in respect of the previous rail franchise controlled by UK Government. In 2013 the landscape was incredibly different. Widespread electrification plans across the UK would've seen full electrification of many routes across the midlands, the north, then closer to home on the Great Western main line to Oxford, Bristol and Swansea. This would've released, as Rhun ap Iorwerth has described it, or cascaded a number of modern diesel trains, which could've strengthened the Wales and borders fleet, as well as provided contingency to release units for disabled persons modifications. But as David Rowlands and Hefin David have both said, the previous UK Government dramatically scaled back these plans, and, in addition, other projects such as Crossrail have been delayed. Consequently, any rolling stock strategy in 2013 would, by now, be completely irrelevant.

I think it's disingenuous of some Members to claim that no action was taken to try and reduce the risks of ageing rolling stock and requirements under the people with restricted mobility legislation. For the Wales and borders operation, the shortage of units was identified in 2017, and as a result, trains were ordered then from Porterbrook for introduction in May of 2018. But those trains have not been delivered as Porterbrook promised, and the programme is now almost two years late, hence the need for the mitigations, including the continued operation of some existing trains. Therefore, the only option available was to apply for dispensation to continue the operation of non-PRM train units until the modifications are completed and cascaded trains introduced. This is becoming, as Members have already identified, a familiar problem across the United Kingdom, where capacity issues are pressing because of a lack of diesel trains. It's wrong to say that we've taken too long to apply for dispensation, because it was absolutely right and proper that we exhausted every opportunity to be compliant, and that we pressed Porterbrook as far as we possibly could to deliver the trains as they had promised.

It's for the UK Government to now grant the dispensation, and I expect it to be made very shortly. But if Members expressing concerns today really wish to be constructive, then they should support our application for dispensation. We are not alone—as Members have already identified, Northern have sought dispensation, but we also understand three other train operators have applied for dispensation now.

Furthermore, Llywydd, all Members could help to deliver new stations and new infrastructure, as John Griffiths and David Rowlands highlighted with Magor station, by once again calling for our recommendations to the Williams review to be accepted, just as Huw Irranca-Davies alluded to.

So, whilst I'm not happy that we've had to go down the avenue of seeking dispensation, we've been forced to do it, because the alternative would have been far, far worse for the people of Wales. The removal of trains from service would have led to long-term, widespread cancellations across Wales, including the north Wales coast, north-east Wales commuter services, west Wales rural services and also south Wales commuter services. In short, it would not be possible to deliver a usable rail service in Wales.

Now, up until October 2018, PRM modification programmes were the responsibility of the previous franchise operator, which was not actually required to undertake modifications, and those programmes were under the control of the Department for Transport. Therefore, whilst other English train operators have had around five years to ensure PRM compliance, Transport for Wales has only had 14 months. I hope the Chamber will therefore recognise today the hard work of TfW over this incredibly short period to ensure that as many units as possible are PRM compliant on 1 January next year. Indeed, we estimate that around two thirds of the 134-train fleet will be PRM compliant at that time.

Now, had we done, as some Members are calling for—and given the apparent inability of the rolling stock industry to respond swiftly, I am convinced that any rolling stock strategy that we had developed would have fallen short for reasons outside of our control and would have undermined our innovative approach to procuring the franchise.

What is it that Welsh Government is actually doing? Well, we're investing £738 million in the south-east Wales metro, we're making £800 million of investment available to ensure that, from 2023, new rolling stock will be available on the Wales and borders route, with approximately half of these trains built here in Wales. We're also investing around £40 million in improving the customer service and resilience of our existing trains.

Will you take an intervention?

Within months of the—. Yes, of course.

There was an implication that I heard in the Chamber earlier from another Member that said that the new stock will actually have less capacity— 

No.

—on the Rhymney line than elsewhere. Can you just give us a reassurance that that isn't going to happen?

We're increasing capacity on each of those lines in line with our vision for metro services, so there will be more seats available to commuters at key times, there will be more services, there'll be four trains per hour on metro lines. This is a huge undertaking, an incredibly ambitious exercise, and within months of the start of the new franchise we were also able to give the gift of new services in the north with the reopening of the Halton Curve. From this December, we're going to be introducing a huge increase in Sunday services across Wales, and we're also investing a £194 million in station improvement across the Wales and borders network. I'm pleased that at least five new stations will be created, and one of those, Bow Street, is, as of this week, under construction.

Finally, on safety, we reached agreement with rail unions to ensure that we kept a guard on each train. So, we can choose—we can choose to be backward-looking or we can choose to look to the future. We can look to a brighter future when more services of higher quality are being delivered for the people of Wales.

I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to reply to the debate. 

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and thank you to everyone who's contributed to this debate today. I know that there's a feeling that some of the questions that were raised weren't answered by the Minister. I'm sure Delyth Jewell will pose those questions again in correspondence to the Minister to pursue some of those issues.

It was a debate about one specific issue, but, of course, as expected, the debate opened up with many Members across the political spectrum discussing those issues that are of most concern to them in their own constituencies. I welcomed the admission from Hefin David that Government after Government, Labour and Conservative, at a UK level had failed to make the necessary investment in Welsh railways over a period of decades, which has left us in a position where we are facing—

Can I just say that you're misrepresenting me, because I didn't say that?

I do believe you did.

I did not. I certainly did not.

You blamed former Governments for not investing in rail in Wales, meaning that we have a rather steep hill to climb, which is quite clearly the case.

So, points have been made about the south-east particularly. Others have been in touch with me from outside the Chamber talking about the need to look at the western Valleys too—the Neath, Swansea, Dulais valley areas, where much more needs to be done to strengthen our railways to take people away from their cars. There are concerns too in north and mid Wales, of course.

But we are talking here about one specific issue, namely why are we in this position where we still haven't been given dispensation to use these trains after the end of the year? I hear the Minister's comments, along with Members on his backbenches, that they expect an announcement by the UK Government's Department for Transport soon, but we haven't had that as of yet. This is about accountability, holding the Government's feet to the fire, as it were, to ensure that everything is done to deliver on this. And the fundamental question that hasn't been answered for me is: why wasn't there an alternative plan in place? Why wasn't there a plan B in case there was a problem with the delivery of these new trains? Because that's the situation here. Nobody is suggesting, as far as I know, that we are withdrawing these trains from service, as some have suggested. No—unfortunately, we are seeking dispensation to continue using them after the end of the year. That's what we are doing, and we are hugely concerned that that dispensation hasn't been given to date, and the problem as I see it is that the Welsh Government has failed to request that dispensation in good time, and that's why we're facing this ongoing uncertainty.

We know that promises have not been adhered to, and I'm sure that I am accurately quoting you, Hefin David, when I say that I agree with you that the Minister had overpromised. And overpromising and underdelivery is a very serious issue, because it does undermine people's confidence in what the Government is doing. I know that the Minister is very enthusiastic for the new plans for the railways, but overpromising and failing to deliver does undermine people's confidence.

I'm trying to be constructive in this debate and build an argument for why we're going to see transformation. I didn't use the word 'overpromising'. What I said was that the initial expectations for the service were raised high, so that people expected an immediate transformation. That clearly was never the plan. So, there was never an overpromise, but expectations for the service were higher than may be realistic, and I think that's what you're politically playing on today.

Okay, well I take the two words—there was overpromising, it was oversold. I agree, there was an over-promise on what could be delivered and you said that there was not enough delivery on that. We'll get together and we'll go through the Cofnod together and review what you said in your speech, but I'm quite confident in the notes that I've written here.

But this is about accountability. It's about holding the Government to account and making sure that now it takes action to make sure that we don't have to take these Pacers out of service at the end of the year, which, as we know, would mean transport chaos, especially in the south-east of Wales, but also in other parts of Wales too.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting until voting time. 

And we now reach voting time. The first vote is on the debate on a Member's legislative proposal on a workplace parking levy, and I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Jenny Rathbone. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, 20 abstentions, 14 against. Therefore the motion is not agreed. 

The next vote is on the Welsh Conservatives debate on hospice and palliative care. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions, 33 against. Therefore the motion is not agreed. 

Amendment 1 is the next vote. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 28, no abstentions, 19 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed. Amendments 2 and 3 are deselected. 

And therefore a vote now on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, 11 abstentions, nine against. Therefore the motion as amended is agreed. 

The next vote is on the Plaid Cymru debate on rolling stock. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 11, no abstentions, 36 against. Therefore the motion is not agreed. 

Amendment 1 is the first vote. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 31, no abstentions, 16 against. Therefore amendment 1 is agreed.

Amendment 2 is the next vote and I call for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 16, four abstentions, 27 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is not agreed. 

I call now for a vote on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 31, no abstentions, 16 against. Therefore the motion as amended is agreed. 

And that brings our proceedings to a close because the short debate has been postponed.