National Assembly for Wales

I call the National Assembly to order.

I have received notification, under Standing Order 12.58, that the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language, Alun Davies, will answer questions this afternoon on behalf of the Cabinet Secretary for Education. Question 1, Simon Thomas.

Thank you. No assessment has been made. I take the well-being of all learners very seriously, and schools should have in place arrangements to support their learners. Girls should be regularly reminded that sanitary products are available from named female staff members, if needed.

Thank you for your response, Minister, on behalf of the Cabinet Secretary. I’m sure you will be aware that a number of general questions are being asked in the sphere of education on this issue at the moment, particularly in Scotland, where there are efforts to make these products available free of charge in all schools, and there is a petition before Parliament in Westminster, as I understand it.

Now, when an inquiry was held by the previous children and young people’s committee, we looked into the educational outcomes for children from low-income households, and it’s true to say that this issue wasn’t raised as part of that inquiry, as I remember it. But, of course, it’s a very personal issue and something that is perhaps hidden and not openly discussed. Can the Minister confirm that, if a school were to use Welsh Government funding, such as the pupil deprivation grant, to pay for such products, in order to ensure that girls did feel comfortable and happy at school, or any other support to ensure that these products were available, the Government would support and encourage such an approach?

Absolutely. I’m very happy to give you that confirmation. But I think we need to go further than that. Poverty manifests itself in different ways, and we understand that different families are poor in different ways. And it’s not sufficient, just because there is no evidence at present of a problem in this field, that we don’t do anything about it. We will be investigating to ensure any evidence of this at all is found. If there is a problem that needs resolving, we will do so, and we will work with schools to ensure—as per the Member’s suggestion—if there’s a way for schools to work to ensure that girls feel at ease at school and that they’re able to learn, then we will do so. So, I want to ensure that there’s a proactive response to this to ensure that this doesn’t happen in Wales.

It’s really hard for us to think here that, in 2017, young girls across the UK, and possibly in Wales, are actually missing school because they can’t afford the sanitary protection that they need. And it is quite clear that this is an issue of poverty. So, I ask you, Cabinet Secretary—or Minister—if it’s possible for you to assess the prospect of working with schools, through charitable organisations, to provide those free sanitary wares that girls need in order to be able to take their rightful place in the classroom, and they don’t find themselves in a position of disadvantage to their educational attainment.

As I think I already said, in answer to the earlier question, poverty takes different forms, in different places, with different people, in different ways, at different times. And we have to, as a Government, ensure that we don’t simply respond to issues, but that we are proactive in ensuring that girls attending schools in Wales are not put at any disadvantage at all, and do not face embarrassment, do not face any difficulties at all, in accessing education. And if there are any issues with sanitary products at all, then we will ensure that all steps possible are taken, and are taken proactively, by schools and ourselves and others—other appropriate organisations and individuals—to ensure that these problems are identified and solved.

Minister, some of the media reports on this matter have been quite upsetting. To see young girls missing out on weeks of their education each year because of their biological make-up, and live in poverty, is unacceptable. Minister, can you update us on the discussions your Government have had with UK and European Union institutions about removing the value added tax on feminine hygiene products? And what consideration has your Government given to using your public procurement powers to purchase feminine hygiene products in bulk in order to offer them at a reduced cost price, or even free, to young girls who find themselves in this situation where they have to miss out on valuable schooling? Thank you.

As I said in answer to Simon Thomas, we would encourage and ensure that schools do, wherever necessary, use the resources available to them, to ensure that girls do have access to these products, which enables them to receive their education. I think this Government has been on the record over a long number of years in arguing that these products should not be taxed in that way.

Schools are responsible for identifying their staffing needs and the roles they fulfil. All learning support workers play a vital role in supporting teaching within and outside the classroom.

Could the Minister confirm that cover supervisors are not required to teach classes, because there is anecdotal evidence that this does sometimes happen? Their task, as I understand it, is to hand out the lessons that are prepared by the regular class teacher. There does seem to be some confusion about this.

Cover supervisors fall under the registration category of learning support workers. Cover supervisors provide short-term supervision in the absence of a teacher, and this should not involve teaching as defined by the specified work requirements. And it’s a matter for the headteacher to ensure that an individual is willing to undertake such a role and has the aptitude to carry out these duties. In determining whether a person has the skills, expertise and experience to carry out the work specified in the school, headteachers must have regard to set standards for higher level teaching assistants. I hope the situation is clear for all headteachers and others to understand it, and certainly, there shouldn’t be any confusion in any school across Wales.

Minister, obviously with the childcare proposals that the Government are putting forward, there have been submissions from the Government that you’re going to be using the school estate in some aspects to provide some of this capacity. Will you envisage that cover supervisors would be encouraged or trained to help support the Government’s roll-out of the 30 hours of free childcare over the weeks, as planned, or do you see no role at all for the cover supervisors that are provided in the current school estate, either in primary or secondary?

The Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children is leading the roll-out of the childcare offer, as the Member is aware, and a part of that—. One of the reasons for the pilots that will be starting in September in different parts of Wales is to ensure that we have both the workforce available—the workforce that’s appropriate to the needs of the childcare offer that’s being delivered—and that it’s delivered in the settings that would be appropriate as well. And that will involve a different mix in different places, at different times. The Cabinet Secretary has updated the Chamber on a number of occasions on these matters, and I’m sure he will continue to keep Members informed of the progress of the pilots.

I now call on the party spokespeople to ask their questions of the Minister. Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Darren Millar.

Diolch, Lywydd. Is the Minister concerned that almost half of Welsh further education colleges are in significant financial deficit?

The Member will be aware that the Wales Audit Office has recently reviewed the situation of Welsh further and higher education institutions and not found them to be suffering the same financial difficulties as those that exist in England, as a consequence of a policy of the United Kingdom Government.

From that reaction, at least you’re acknowledging that there are problems here in Wales, unlike the leader of the house when I questioned her on this point last week. This isn’t fake news. These are true financial figures from colleges here in Wales. We’ve seen huge cuts in terms of funding for part-time courses in particular—71 per cent in recent years, and a reduction of 13 per cent in real terms to further education colleges. Those are cuts that are now biting hard in those colleges. Some are withdrawing access to certain courses. I appreciate that you want to focus across the border in England, but if you can focus on Wales for a moment, what are you doing in order to improve the prospects of those colleges, so that we don’t see courses being withdrawn in local communities, and we don’t see further education colleges not being able to have the sort of economic impact they’ve had in those communities in the past?

I’ve enjoyed the contributions of the Member concerned for nearly a decade in this place, where he has railed against the consequences of the policies of a Government that he supports across the border in England. We all know that there are funding difficulties facing us in Wales, and we know why there are funding difficulties facing us in Wales—because a Conservative Government has taken the wrong decisions on the economy, the wrong decisions on public finance, and because of their failing economic policy, we’re facing considerably more difficulties in terms of an austerity policy that has failed and failed and failed again. The Member’s aware of this and I can understand that he’s too sheepish to actually admit it.

The Minister will be aware that the legacy of Gordon Brown’s failed economic policy and mismanagement of public finances is one that our country is still trying to get to grips with. And notwithstanding the pressures on public finances, the reality is that the cuts that you have made in the further education sector in Wales are larger than the cuts that have been imposed on the Welsh block grant. So, it’s choices in Wales that your Government has made that have led to the financial blows that have been faced by further education colleges.

Now, there is going to be some additional resource made available to the Welsh Government—some savings as a result of the reforms to higher education support for students. That will give a dividend to the Welsh Government that it can reinvest elsewhere. I wonder, Minister, whether you will be able to tell us whether the further education colleges across Wales will receive some of the investment that will accrue to the Welsh Government as a result of those savings and whether you will be able to restore the commitment to three-year indicative budgets in order to aid their financial planning and whether some of that resource will be put into developing Welsh-medium education in the further education sector.

My memory, Darren, of those days when Gordon Brown was bringing the G20 together to rescue the western economy was that the Conservative Party sat opposite, where you are today, like goldfish mouthing nothing in response. Let me say this—[Interruption.] Let me say this: the report from the Wales Audit Office is an important report and I’m disappointed that you’ve chosen not to refer to it in your questions this afternoon. Had you referred to it and read it, then what you would understand is that we do have institutions facing financial challenges—and I don’t make any bones about that—but are in robust health, particularly when you compare that with the situation across the border, and I think that’s a valid comparison to make.

Let me say this: we understand the situation with Welsh-medium education. My colleague the Cabinet Secretary established a group to look at that last summer. It will report this summer and we will take that forward. We have delivered additional resources for further education. We will continue to protect, as far as we can, further education, and when we’re protecting them, we’ll protect them from a Government that you support across the border in England.

Before I call Llyr Gruffydd, can I just say that no Members in this Chamber are sheepish and, in particular, I’d say that Darren Millar is not known for that particular trait, and so, we’ll have no more name-calling, especially from a Minister who’s standing in for a Cabinet Secretary this afternoon? Llyr Gruffydd.

Well, I fear saying anything now, if truth be told, but, thank you, Llywydd. [Laughter.]

I want to pursue a similar theme, but perhaps in a very different way—let’s put it in those terms. The education committee over the past few months has heard a fair amount of evidence on the pressure faced by schools at the moment in terms of difficulties of capacity, teachers’ workload and so on, and the clear theme emerging time and time again is the funding situation for schools across the nation. The strain on school budgets is very grave indeed in a number of cases. Indeed, one person told us that he had reached breaking point in his experience, and there’s also evidence demonstrating that schools are using funding sources allocated for specific purposes in order just to maintain staffing levels and not to deliver what that funding is aimed at delivering. Are you aware of that reality as a Government, and if you are, do you recognise that such a situation is not sustainable?

I understand that schools, wherever they may be, are facing very difficult situations because of the financial position that we all understand, and we understand the reason for that financial position. But may I say this: if the Member has a specific example he wishes to allude to, then if he writes to me, then I will respond on that specific example? But we do understand that headteachers and governors are dealing with a difficult situation and I believe we should all support headteachers and governors for the way that they’re dealing with this financial situation.

Okay. Well, I could read the quote to you, but I won’t do that; I’ll write to you. But, to all intents and purposes, there is a claim that the PDG funding is being directed at other purposes, which, to all intents and purposes, is propping up staffing levels within schools.

The committee has also heard that there’s a grave inconsistency in the funding provided to schools from one part of the country to another. According to figures gathered by NAHT Cymru on age-weighted pupil units in Wales, the funding per capita for pupils ranges from £1,798 in one county to £3,200 in another. This is another factor that contributes to this picture of financial pressures, which surely does have an impact on the variability in the teaching quality that we hear Estyn refer to constantly, and also the inconsistency in terms of the provision of CPD for teachers in some schools and counties, because the necessary resources aren’t available within schools to provide that. Can I ask, therefore, do you think that this financial inconsistency is acceptable and what is the Government going to do to seek greater equity in terms of funding or at least a more consistent funding system across Wales?

Nid wyf yn siŵr fy mod i yn derbyn hynny, achos os ydym ni’n derbyn y dadansoddiad, derbyn yr awgrym mae llefarydd Plaid Cymru wedi ei wneud, mi fyddem ni, wrth gwrs, yn cael un system ariannu ar gyfer ysgolion ym mhob man ar draws Cymru. Mi fyddem ni yn cenedlaetholi, os ydych chi’n licio, ysgolion lleol. Nawr, nid ydw i’n siŵr bod yr Aelod yn gofyn am hynny. Nid ydw i, yn bendant, eisiau gweld hynny. Felly, mae mynd i fod rhywfaint o anghysondeb, os ydych chi’n licio, mewn rhannau gwahanol o’r wlad sy’n adlewyrchu blaenoriaethau lleol yr awdurdod lleol. Nawr, mae hynny yn fater i bobl leol, ar gyfer ein democratiaeth leol ni. A ydym ni’n meddwl bod y pwysigrwydd o gysondeb yn fwy pwysig na’r anghenion, ac efallai blaenoriaethau, democrataidd lleol? Ac rydw i’n credu dyna’r cwestiwn ehangach.

Na, rŷch chi’n gwneud pwynt digon teg. ‘Rhywfaint o amrywiaeth’ oedd y term ddywedoch chi ond, wrth gwrs, rŷm ni’n sôn yn fan hyn am bron i ddwbl y gwariant mewn rhai ardaloedd o gymharu ag ardaloedd eraill, felly, beth roeddwn i’n trio gofyn oedd beth allwn ni ei wneud i drio cysoni rhywfaint ar yr anghysondeb sy’n bodoli. Ond, nid oes gwadu bod y pwysau ariannol yn ddifrifol, a’i fod e yn mynd i arwain at drafferthion sylweddol yn y dyfodol. Wrth gwrs, pan rŷch chi’n edrych ar yr holl newid sydd yn yr arfaeth yn y system addysg dros y misoedd a’r blynyddoedd nesaf yma—buom ni’n trafod y Bil anghenion dysgu ychwanegol a’r gofynion ychwanegol a ddaw yn sgil hynny; rŷm ni’n gwybod am y newidiadau i’r cwricwlwm, a’r anghenion wedyn o safbwynt datblygu proffesiynol y gweithlu ac yn y blaen—mae’n glir y bydd pwysau cynyddol, aruthrol ar athrawon ac ar yr adnoddau yn yr ysgolion dros y misoedd nesaf, ac ar yn union yr un pryd, wrth gwrs, rŷm ni’n gweld bod staff yn cael eu diswyddo—mae nifer ohonom ni yn llywodraethwyr mewn ysgolion sy’n gorfod gwneud penderfyniadau anodd iawn—lle mae ysgolion yn torri yn ôl ar eu cyllidebau nhw. Nawr, gan gofio gwaith ymchwil NUT Cymru blwyddyn diwethaf oedd wedi datgelu bod rhyw 52,000 o ddyddiau ysgol wedi cael eu colli yn 2015 oherwydd salwch yn deillio o bwysau gwaith, ac o gofio’r pwysau ariannol rŷm ni wedi bod yn sôn amdano, a ydych chi’n hyderus bod gan ysgolion Cymru y capasiti sydd ei angen i weithredu’r holl newidiadau yma sydd ar y gweill, ac nid jest eu gweithredu nhw, ond eu gweithredu nhw yn effeithiol?

Ydw. Ydw, mi ydw i. Nid yw hynny’n ymateb derbyniol, rwy’n deall hynny. Mae’n un peth i restru’r problemau a’r heriau sydd yn wynebu ysgolion; mae’n beth gwahanol i’w datrys nhw. Mae’r Llywodraeth yma amboutu datrys problemau, wynebu’r heriau, ac wedyn sicrhau ein bod ni’n gallu buddsoddi mewn addysg plant ar gyfer y dyfodol, ac rydym yn gwneud hynny. Trwy’r math o newidiadau rydych chi wedi eu rhestru i ryw raddau y prynhawn yma, ac rydych chi’n ymwybodol ohonyn nhw drwy waith y pwyllgor, rydym ni yn mynd i sicrhau ein bod ni’n buddsoddi i wella safon addysg i bob un plentyn ar draws Cymru, ac mae hynny yn mynd i fod yn her, ond beth rydym ni’n sicrhau yw bod gan ysgolion yr adnoddau a’r gefnogaeth i sicrhau eu bod yn gallu gwneud hynny. Ydw, rydw i yn sicr bod ganddyn nhw.

Llefarydd UKIP, Michelle Brown.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. It is pointed out time and time again that there’s a recruitment crisis in Wales. What measures are you taking to ascertain the reasons that teachers from England, Scotland and Northern Ireland may or may not want to work in Wales?

We are seeking to ensure that we have a working environment in Wales that teachers will appreciate, value and enjoy, so that we are able to put in place the sort of support, curriculum and resources—just in answer to Llyr Gruffydd. We are going to be putting in place a teaching environment that will be attractive to teachers, not just from the other countries of the United Kingdom, but people in Wales as well.

Thank you for that answer. I didn’t hear you tell us what you’re trying to do to find out why teachers would or would not want to come and work in Wales. If we’re not supplying our own teachers, we need to be finding them from somewhere else. So, one of the things that we need to understand is why people would want to work in Wales and what’s putting them off. So, what sort of investigations are you holding to find that out?

We understand—we’ve conducted a number of workforce surveys recently and we’ve created, of course, the Education Workforce Council, which will report on these matters in more detail in due course. But we understand that one of the issues that are most important in people taking decisions about where they will live and where they will work is the working environment itself, and by treating teachers with respect, we are ensuring that they are valued in society, valued in the schools, and by putting in place reforms that are supported and funded. You were in the committee this morning and you heard the debate on the additional learning needs Bill. In Wales, that is being funded; in England, it isn’t being funded. That demonstrates how we don’t just institute reforms to teaching methodology, methods and mechanisms, but we also support them. I think that that will be valued and appreciated by teachers.

Thank you for that answer. The Welsh education system has, unfortunately, got a very poor reputation. Whether you agree with that reputation, whether you agree that the Welsh education system deserves that reputation or not, we’re going to find it very difficult to recruit young professionals with young families, researchers and medical professionals, unless that reputation is upped. What are you trying to do to improve the reputation of the Welsh education system outside Wales?

I completely disagree with the assumption. I disagree with the analysis. I disagree with the conclusion. Do you know the difficulty that we face in Wales, Presiding Officer? It is people who make those sorts of comments without any sustaining evidence or without any sustaining means of substantiating those sorts of wild allegations. What really depresses, I think, many people, not just in education in Wales, but elsewhere in public life in Wales is the way that UKIP and the Conservatives will constantly join together to do down the public sector, to do down public schools and to ensure that people are not supportive. This is a Government that will support teachers, support teaching staff, support the education system, and, when you’re talking it down, we’re talking it up.

We recognise that the closure of the Wern Fawr site will be significant, but it should not result in any loss of availability for adult learners. Adult Learning Wales, along with officials, continues to work with the community to deliver adult learning provision in the Coleg Harlech tradition.

The Minister will be aware of the transformational impact that Coleg Harlech has had on so many students over the years, where they’ve had a second opportunity at education. Can the Minister confirm whether there has been any discussion with the WEA—Adult Learning Wales in terms of use of the building for the future, and whether there has been any discussion with the Cabinet Secretary for the economy in terms of the sustainability of the arts centre if the further education centre ceases to exist?

May I begin by agreeing with the point that the Member has made about the traditions of Coleg Harlech and its contribution? I believe that each of us who has visited the college and everyone who has sat in this Siambr representing the Harlech area realises the contribution it’s made to further education over the years. I can confirm that my department has been having discussions with the department for the economy in Welsh Government as regards the future use of the building and the Coleg Harlech site. We will continue to co-operate and collaborate to support Adult Learning Wales to find a sustainable way of maintaining the site for the future. I can also confirm that the Cabinet Secretary for the economy has met with Gwynedd county councillors to discuss the future of the Coleg Harlech site. Options are still being worked through with the council, and Welsh Government officials will continue to discuss the plans for the future with the officers from Gwynedd county council. I’m sure that Members will be happy to receive further updates on this work.

Estyn are wholly responsible for planning their inspection work. The inspectorate is introducing changes to inspection arrangements for schools and other providers from September 2017 to help drive improvement and support innovation. The inspectorate is also currently developing new inspection arrangements for local authority education services.

Thank you, Minister. The most recent annual report by the chief inspector of schools showed there was far too much variation in standards of teaching, learning and leadership in schools across Wales. Given that, is the Minister concerned that Estyn is not planning or inspecting local education authorities in the next inspection round? Instead, it plans to focus on the regional consortia.

It’s important to recognise, were that to be true, it may be that people would have some concerns, but let me say this: Estyn are continuing to meet with local authorities, local education authorities, to continue to have discussions with them about the sort of the support that they require; the improvement conferences that have taken place across Wales at the moment are designed to look again at the way in which we inspect local education authorities; and it isn’t true to say that there will be no relationship between Estyn and local education authorities for the period of time to which the Member refers. And it’s important therefore not to draw too many, too great a conclusion from that particular statement. There will continue to be a relationship between Estyn and particular education authorities where that support is required, and there will continue to be meetings between Estyn and local education authorities throughout this period.

Minister, the latest Estyn report also highlights the fact that inspection outcomes for special schools aren’t as positive as previous years, and the results for pupil referral units continue to be poor. In light of this, what specific steps is the Welsh Government taking to improve outcomes in special schools and in pupil referral units specifically?

I hope that the support required by special schools will be offered by the consortia and others where that is necessary. I understand and accept the point made by the Member, and I think that the system of review that we have at the moment—the inspection system, rather—is a very robust one, and because of that we understand the situation that some special schools will face, and the schools will receive the support that they need to improve.

Band B of the twenty-first century schools and education programme is planned for the period 2019-24, and is currently under development. The Welsh Government will continue to work with our partners, including local authorities, diocesan authorities and the further education sector to understand demand for investment and key projects.

Thank you for that answer, Minister. The twenty-first century schools programme to date has actually been an excellent example of how we can improve the education facilities for our young children. In my own constituency, we’ve just seen the Cabinet Secretary open officially Ysgol Bae Baglan; Awel y Môr has been created; and there are three new sites in Margam; the new Welsh-medium secondary in Sandfields; and the new primary school in Britton Ferry. But this is important, as we still have schools in the category C and D situation, where we need to replace those schools. You’ve given me a timeline of 2019-24, but what criteria can we get under way to ensure that those schools that are now in need of the next stage can actually get their bids in as quickly as possible to ensure that the funding for the children who go to those schools, and the education facilities for the children who go to those schools, can be in place as quickly as possible?

The Member’s absolutely right to emphasise the investment that’s taken place in schools across Wales. Band A has seen a rebuild and refurbishment of over 150 schools and colleges across Wales. That’s a real investment in the education of children and young people for the future. The second wave will begin—band B will begin in 2019 and run over a five-year period to 2024. Investment priorities for the next funding period are currently being developed in partnership with local authorities, further education institutions and others. The aim of the band B programme is to reduce the number of poor condition schools and colleges, to provide enough places to deliver Welsh and English-medium education, and ensure effective and efficient use of the educational estate. And I would advise all of those who have an interest in that to have conversations immediately with local authorities and take these matters forward.

Minister, I wonder if you’d look at the official website, which is sponsored by the Welsh Government and the WLGA, click on ‘latest news’, and the latest news on it is a construction conference on how to build a good school, dated 12 May 2015. Now, I know we’re in between schemes or phases, but this does give the impression the whole programme is dormant, and you need a more alert—I would suggest—website.

I would find it very difficult to disagree with that.

Despite the twenty-first century schools programme, difficulties do still arise with older schools in need of repair. We had a rather ludicrous situation this winter, when 1,400 pupils from three Cardiff secondary schools were being ferried out to places like the Motorpoint Arena, the SWALEC stadium, county hall and Barry College for lessons. This did cause considerable disruption. Does the Minister think this situation was acceptable, and can his department do anything to avoid similar disruption in future?

Clearly, that’s a matter for the education authority in the city. What I will say is that all education authorities are expected to provide a coherence of education throughout the day and throughout these periods for the children and young people they’re delivering education to.

Cylchoedd Ti a Fi’, Welsh-medium parent and toddler groups, are an important part of the Welsh-medium early years provision supported by Mudiad Meithrin. We want to ensure there is a clear path of support for parents to use Welsh with their children, with the aim of increasing numbers reaching Welsh-medium education.

Thank you, Minister. If we want to see a million Welsh speakers, then the journey for many starts with ‘cylch Ti a Fi’, then Mudiad Meithrin and then primary school and then, finally, secondary school. Then we will have children at 16 years of age who are fluent Welsh speakers. How does the Welsh Government support the ‘Ti a Fi’ movement?

I thank the Member for the question. There is a package of support for ‘cylchoedd Ti a Fi’, which was announced in the autumn of last year, and that includes advice and examples of good practice to ensure that existing groups and new groups can receive support and also be established anew. In addition, there’s a grant of £1.4 million in the next financial year, which will support a range of activities, including support to expand provision for the early years through the medium of Welsh, and ‘cylchoedd Ti a Fi’ are an important part of that provision.

It’s crucial that we develop and enhance the work of the Mudiad Meithrin as part of the Government’s 1 million Welsh speakers strategy. Now, of course, we need to work on a number of other fronts, too, in order to achieve that goal. Last week, this was launched—’Reaching the Million’—by Plaid Cymru, setting out the strategic priorities that we must work around. This includes expanding childcare and Welsh-medium education, but we must also create the economic conditions that will assist the development of the language. It’s becoming increasingly obvious that the challenge of the language stands side by side with the challenge of tackling poverty and ensuring the economic resilience of our communities. So, as you develop your 1 million Welsh speakers strategy, what cross-departmental work is happening within Government in order to tackle the impact that a weak economy and poverty has on the future of the Welsh language?

I should thank the Member for sending me a copy of that document. I haven’t had an opportunity to read it yet; I’ll be doing that over the weekend, perhaps. But I very much appreciate it. May I say this? The language strategy will be a Government strategy, and it won’t be the strategy of any particular department. It’ll be developed across the Government, including every Government department, and then it will be accepted by the Cabinet in order to ensure that it is a priority for the whole of Welsh Government. And so every issue, such as poverty, as the Member has just alluded to, will be part of it, and the ‘cylchoedd Ti a Fi’ provision, as has been raised by Mike Hedges, will also be part of it, and the wider early years provision will also be part of it. This is a comprehensive strategy, and includes all of Welsh Government.

I am also going to try and speak a little Welsh this afternoon. Last month, I visited a ‘cylch Ti a Fi’ in my constituency, and I enjoyed listening to the children singing and starting to learn Welsh. I am also learning Welsh

rhag ofn nad ydych wedi dyfalu. [Chwerthin.] Weinidog, yr hyn sy’n fy nharo i pan fyddaf yn ymweld â’r cylch, yn awr ei fod wedi cael ei ymgorffori’n rhan o Ysgol Gwenffrwd yn Nhreffynnon, yw bod dros 90 y cant o’r plant yn dod o gartrefi di-Gymraeg, ac mae llawer o’r cynorthwywyr meithrin mewn gwirionedd yn rhieni plant a arferai ddod i’r cylch sydd wedi dod i weithio yn y cylch hefyd fel dysgwyr sy’n oedolion. Felly, Weinidog, hoffwn ofyn yn benodol beth sy’n cael ei wneud, nid yn unig i gynorthwyo’r rhieni hyn i ddysgu Cymraeg ochr yn ochr â’u plant, ac i annog eu plant i aros mewn addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, ond o bosibl i gynnig llwybr gyrfa i’r rhieni eu hunain.

I think one of the most inspiring things that we’ve seen in recent years has been the growth in the enthusiasm for the language in the parts of north-east Wales that you represent, which haven’t been, traditionally, Welsh-speaking areas. I remember that one of my first visits as a Minister in this Assembly was to the Eisteddfod in Flintshire. I think it was a great experience for many of us, and we thoroughly enjoyed our time there. Can I say that one of the things we’re looking at doing is investing in programmes such as Cymraeg for Kids, which are there to support and sustain the use and acquisition of the language, not by individual children but by families, and that the role of parents is absolutely essential to that, both when parents feel uncomfortable with a child acquiring and using the language, which might not have been used in the home before, but also then sustaining and enabling the parent to enjoy the children’s education, to feel comfortable in what the children are learning, to help with homework and to support the child’s developing language needs and language acquisition. So, I hope that the Cymraeg for Kids programme will sustain and support the use of Welsh, both amongst the children themselves but amongst the family as a whole. I hope, if we are able to do that, then we will achieve far more than simply providing educational opportunities for the children but also a much richer cultural experience for the family as a whole.

Responsibility for the payment of the tuition fee grant transferred from the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales to the Welsh Government with effect from 1 April 2015. The technical adjustment of £21.1 million was confirmation of the final transfer of the ring-fenced budget outlined in the 2016 ministerial remit letter to HEFCW.

The Minister describes this as a technical change, and that was also what the Cabinet Secretary for finance said to me in a letter on 15 March, that it was a technical adjustment within the portfolio. Could the Minister therefore explain why Kirsty Williams told the Children, Young People and Education Committee on 17 October the tuition fee grant

will be in excess of original estimates of £257.6m for 2016-17. We will therefore action the transfer of £21.1m from HEFCW to Welsh Government in the 2nd supplementary budget partly to cover the additional expenditure.’

Presiding Officer, the Member is at least consistent in asking the same question to a number of different Ministers and committees at different times, but I will disappoint the Member by giving the same answer as those Ministers have already given him. He’s received his letter on 15 March. I’m very happy, Presiding Officer, to test your patience again and read it in its entirety onto the record, but I’m not sure that would achieve very much. I have to say this to the Member: the points that he has raised both in Finance Committee and again here were answered in the letter of 15 March. This is a technical adjustment to the budgets that are associated with higher education. The published budget documentation explains this, and it’s been explained by both the finance Minister and by the education Secretary in these matters.

Dai Lloyd. David Rees. Oh, not doing well here. Mohammad Asghar. [Laughter.]

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Minister, I recognise that the transfer of £21 million of funding for HEFCW to support the tuition fee grant was included in the final budget. However, it is important that standards in our universities are kept high, and they need to be properly resourced to do that. What is the Cabinet Secretary doing to ensure that HEFCW’s budget is sufficient to support science, technology, engineering and maths courses that are vital in delivering the high-skilled workforce Wales needs in our future? Thank you.

Well, you’re aware, through the conversations that we’ve had previously here, that we’re making the funds available to HEFCW that they require in order to deliver the sort of higher education experience and investment that we want to achieve in Wales. But let me say this: I think we need to go further, sometimes, than simply funding the higher education estate and establishment in order to deliver those things. I think we need to look in a wider way to develop an industrial policy that is based partly within higher education, but not only within higher education, at increasing the skills, commercialising the research available to us, and investing in an economy that can withstand the difficulties that our economy will face in coming years.

The digital competence framework was made available to schools and settings in September 2016. Schools and settings throughout Wales are being helped to develop the delivery of the framework through the digital pioneers and regional consortia.

Thank you, Minister, for your answer. I hope you will be aware that the lack of broadband across parts of rural Powys is putting rural schools in particular at a significant disadvantage, which is having a knock-on effect on pupils’ education. Now, as I understand, there are 28 primary schools across Wales that still cannot access adequate broadband to enable them to teach pupils using the Hwb digital learning resource. Can I ask what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure that teachers can access the digital resource, which they need to deliver the full curriculum to their pupils?

I agree with the fundamental point that the Member makes, that all schools have to have equal access to broadband to ensure that pupils are able to take advantage of these opportunities, which should be available to them. There are 23 schools, in fact, that currently do not have the superfast broadband that we require. We recognise the importance of equal access. The Cabinet Secretary has committed an additional £5 million of funding to ensure that all schools have access to superfast broadband. Presiding Officer, we expect that work in all of these schools will be completed by 31 March, next week. However, there are three schools where BT has encountered issues and which won’t be completed until 28 April.

Question 9 [OAQ(5)0100(EDU)] has been withdrawn. Question 10—Paul Davies.

We have set out our national mission to improve education attainment through a programme of education reforms across Wales, including Pembrokeshire. These include the development of a new curriculum and assessment reform, improved initial teacher education, teachers’ professional learning, building leadership capacity and reducing the attainment gap.

I’m grateful to the Minister for that response. I’m also very grateful that Ysgol Bro Cleddau in my constituency was named recently as the Assembly’s first ambassador school in Wales, and the success of the programme has led the school to understand more about the work of the Assembly and has given the pupils a platform to discuss current affairs.

Now, in light of this success, what can the Welsh Government do to encourage schemes such as this and to encourage as many primary schools as possible to participate, which, in turn will improve pupil education so that future generations can learn more about the Assembly and the impact that decisions taken here have on their daily lives?

I believe that each one of us welcomes the news that Paul has shared with us. Having said that, the Assembly itself, of course, runs exceptionally good schemes, and I have seen the success of the Assembly Commission’s schemes in schools in Blaenau Gwent in my own constituency. They’ve had opportunities to visit the Senedd and also to come and learn more about the Senedd and the Assembly and how that impacts their lives. And I believe that those programmes have been extremely successful and I know that the Government would wish to support the Commission in the work that it’s doing at the moment.

Specialist learning support must be provided to all children identified as having a need. Through our additional learning needs transformation programme and the associated ALN Bill, the needs of learners will be identified earlier and appropriate support provided. We have announced £20 million of funding to support implementation and delivery of the new system.

Thank you, Minister. Minister, I’ve recently been made aware of a situation in my constituency where a learning support assistant is providing assistance to a girl with needs around her sight—Braille support. That LSA has left the council to work elsewhere and the council has been unable to replace that position, so she’s been unable to continue with that level of support through no fault of her own, or even the local authority’s. I guess we’re probably all agreed that greater collaboration between authorities around providing that sort of support would help, as would the local authority using retention and recruitment premiums if necessary. But can the Minister say what else local authorities and Welsh Government can do to ensure that children such as my constituent’s can get the assistance they need when local authorities are unable to fill these posts?

I think we all sympathise with people who are put in that position, and that’s why I’ve sought to emphasise, throughout the debate and the conversation we’ve been having on the additional learning needs Bill, that the Bill is part of a wider transformation programme, and it is the programme that is absolutely key to the success of the Bill. That means a workforce planning programme that is able to recognise where the pressures are, and the Member’s outlined a significant pressure that I don’t think is alone in Merthyr, as it happens—I think it’s the case elsewhere as well.

We are working with the WLGA to ensure that we understand and we can map the pressures that exist within the system at the moment, and of course we’re funding the ALN transformation programme. That’s absolutely key, because if we are to succeed in the future, and if both the Bill itself, the primary legislation and the code and everything that goes along with it, and all of our ambitions and visions for the future, are to be delivered, then they will be delivered by professionals working with children in the classroom or other settings. That means we need to invest in the people and the workforce of the future, to ensure all of these specialisms are available to children when and where they need them, and that they’re available in both English and in Welsh.

After concerns were raised with me by parents who were being told that there would be cuts in one-to-one support in Gwynedd primary schools for their children with type 1 diabetes, they’ve told me it’s good news, and that they’ve found a fantastic way forward, and they’re pleased with the approach adopted by council staff and their willingness to collaborate. However, they expressed concern that this is funded through ALN budgets and they are seeking assurance from the Welsh Government that the upcoming ALN Bill will not compromise that funding. What assurances can you provide for them?

I don’t want to step entirely into the example that the Member’s just quoted. If the Member wishes to write to me with more details about that example, I’m more than happy to reply to him and put a copy of that reply into the library for other Members to see. But can I say this? In the approach that we’re taking, there should be no reduction or diminution in services. In fact, there should be a provision of services that are tailored to the needs of the individual, and those services available potentially to more people, and not fewer people, and that those services will be funded. I’ve just referred in my previous answer to the wider transformation programme that we are undertaking in order to transform the experience, so that all children, no matter what their additional learning need happens to be, are able to enjoy a rich educational experience wherever they happen to be. I would say, since the Member’s mentioned the needs of children with diabetes, we are publishing next week a set of statutory guidance on how children with healthcare needs should be supported within the school and other settings.

Thank you, Minister.

Questions now to the Counsel General, and the first question is from Julie Morgan.

Members will understand that if I make assessments they are legally privileged.

Thank you for that response.

You’re welcome.

Bovine TB is a devolved issue and hunting with dogs remains reserved. However, I’m sure that the Counsel General will have seen the recent report by the League Against Cruel Sports, finding that there was bovine TB in a pack of hounds in Buckinghamshire, and that this resulted in about 40 hounds being put down due to the risk of the dogs spreading the disease to cattle. Does the Counsel General share my concern that the Welsh Government would be unable to legislate to address this new risk in the control of bovine TB in Wales?

Well, thank you for those comments. I’m aware of the report that you refer to, which I think was, in fact, sent to all Members of the Assembly. It does raise an interesting issue and exposes again some of the weaknesses in the Wales Act 2017. Hunting with dogs is clearly a reserved matter in the Act. Therefore, the Welsh Government has no competence. The issue of powers of the Welsh Assembly in respect of animal welfare has been looked at by the Law Commission in their consideration of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, and the issue you raise may well come within other aspects of Welsh responsibility. However, it would not be appropriate for me to trespass into areas that are properly for Ministers with policy responsibility for the matters concerned. However, I will ensure that your question and the issue you raise is referred to the appropriate Minister to respond to. In respect of the Hunting Act 2004 generally, the Welsh Government’s position—as you will know—is that it is opposed to any repeal of that Act. In respect of the Wales Act 2017, it has been said on numerous occasions that the Act is flawed and that there will, in due course, need to be further constitutional legislation, and that’s certainly a view with which I concur.

As Members will know, the answer, again, is subject to the established law officers’ convention.

Thank you. The Counsel General will be aware that issues such as fly-tipping, dog fouling and littering are a real concern for many people. Would the Counsel General agree with me that the penalties applied in respect of anti-social behaviour should be commensurate with the importance that the public places on the need to curb these behaviours?

Well, you raise a number of important issues with regard to legislation and powers that this Assembly and the Welsh Government have in respect of anti-social behaviour. Under the Wales Act 2017, aspects of anti-social behaviour with regard to injunctions, criminal behaviour and so on are, of course, reserved matters. But we do have considerable powers in respect of other areas of anti-social activity—housing, the environment—and you’ve referred to issues of dog fouling and fly-tipping. These are issues that I’m sure every single Assembly Member has raised with them regularly. So, the issue of penalties is important and it is important that penalties that are introduced not only have a deterrent effect but are also commensurate with the potential benefits of the anti-social activity. So, for example, you’ll be aware, of course, that there is a Welsh Government consultation under way at the moment in respect of fly- tipping and the issue of penalties and spot fines is there, part and parcel of that. And, of course, it must be the case that convictions and penalties for anti-social and unlawful activities have to ensure that the activity isn’t actually commercially viable and profitable despite the penalty. So, in relation to fixing penalties for areas within the competence, the Government will give thought to considering the seriousness of the offences involved and the nuisance created by the offences. In fixing penalties for environment-related anti-social behaviour, this is likely to extend to the potential costs of clear up, together with the aim of ensuring that the penalty is a sufficient deterrent to such activity—enforcement, of course, being a matter for local government, but enforcement, of course, being a significant and important part of ensuring that legislation is effective.

Dog fouling, litter picking and fly-tipping are all very important issues, but I’m afraid I’m having to deal with much more serious issues of anti-social behaviour in my constituency. In particular, an individual out on bail awaiting sentence, it is thought, has been conducting threatening behaviour against people who have also been the subject of previous criminal damage to both the front and the side of their house. Clearly, this is extremely intimidating and perhaps not unrelated to the offence for which this person is yet to be sentenced. So, what conversations do you have with law officers about the need to ensure that somebody out on bail is not committing further offences while they’re awaiting sentence?

Well, of course, and, again, in accordance with the convention, you’ll be aware that I’m not in a position to discuss conversations with other law officers. Perhaps what I could do, though, is refer you to the legislative powers that we do actually have. Of course, reservation 43 reserves parts of the powers in respect of anti-social behaviour to the UK Government and that relates specifically to anti-social behaviour injunctions, criminal behaviour orders, dispersal powers, community protection notices, public space protection notices, closure of premises associated with nuisance or disorder, community remedies to anti-social behaviour and so on. Of course, you’ll be aware of the ongoing debate over the reservations that exist and why the Welsh Government’s position was that some of those reservations should not, in fact, have been implemented because they relate directly to other areas of responsibility. But bearing in mind that those are areas that aren’t within our competency at the moment—they are reserved matters—nevertheless, there are actions that Welsh Government has taken through the work of the local authorities, through funding the early intervention pre-court services and restorative approaches, and the fact that we actually provide funding for 500 community support officers who all engage in work in supporting communities. I can’t say the situation will be completely satisfactory because of that division of powers, but those are areas that are obviously going to arise year on year and no doubt will have further consideration in the future. But as things stand at the moment, there are clear reservations in the powers that Welsh Government actually has to deal with some of the issues that you very validly and correctly raise.

Thank you for the question. It is not my intention to make statements about discussions I have had with law officers or to disclose the content of any such discussions. This is an established convention designed to preserve the confidentiality of those discussions and the relationships between law officers, and I look forward to your supplementary question.

Thank you, Counsel General. You are slightly better on the supplementaries as well. So, I’ll see if I can tempt you. Since I tabled this question, there’s been a very important report from the Justice Committee of the House of Commons, which has a specific recommendation with regard to the work of the Court of Justice of the European Union following Brexit. It says very clearly that the Justice Committee recommends a continuing role for the Court of Justice of the European Union

as a price worth paying to maintain the effective cross-border tools of justice.’

Of course, this question relates to environmental justice and unlawful emissions. Can I ask, therefore, the Counsel General, first of all: does he welcome that report from the Justice Committee and see a continuing role for the court of justice as we leave the European Union to maintain those cross-border justice relationships? Can I secondly ask him what his advice would be as the Counsel General and the premier law officer in Wales to a Welsh citizen who is frustrated with the fact that Aberthaw power station continues to pump out illegal emissions, despite the European court having found the UK Government was in contravention back in last September?

I knew there’d be a sting in the tail to the supplementary. The first part of your question with regard to the European Court of Justice is in fact an extremely important point and, of course, because of the great repeal Bill, which is intended to retain the continuity, or to embed, basically, European law into the United Kingdom law, clearly, the decisions of the European Court of Justice will, therefore, become embedded within the jurisprudence of the United Kingdom, as they are at the moment. That will be retained and, of course, the question remains of subsequent interpretation. So, in fact, the European Court of Justice does not go away and, in fact, it’s very arguable that it plays a very, very significant continuing role and a role with which, even out of the European Union, the United Kingdom would want to be engaged with, because environmental issues do not know geographical national boundaries. I think one of the most interesting areas is how that is going to be dealt with, and also, I think, within Welsh Government, how we wish to look at and refer to the issues and the various directives and regulations and changes that take place during what might be a transitional period out of the European Union.

With regard to the point you make about the case itself, and you referred specifically to a Welsh citizen, well, of course, it’s not appropriate for me to advise individual citizens; my role is in respect of Welsh Government. But it is worth taking note of what the judgment specifically was about.

It was about a specific large coal plant directive that, in fact, only applied to one plant in the United Kingdom, as you will know, which was Aberthaw. And, of course, there was a derogation from that—and this is very technical, and, when I read the judgment, I wished I’d been a more attentive student when I was studying chemistry many, many years ago—relating to the actual emissions that arose from the burning of coal and the particular blends and so on.

And the United Kingdom position was that that derogation applied to Aberthaw, the Commission disagreed, it went to the European Court of Justice, which also agreed with the Commission that the derogation didn’t apply. Natural Resources Wales, of course, is the appropriate regulatory body, and, as I understand the position now, the process is under way in terms of the changes to the permit for Aberthaw—that that will probably be completed by the end of March, and that, after that date, there should be compliance with the European Union directive. Whatever rights individuals have is a matter for them to take their own advices and actions.

Well, the Member will not be surprised to know that this question engages the established law officers’ convention. However, the Welsh Government has made its position very clear: we have called for the rights of EU migrants already living in Wales to be guaranteed immediately.

Well, I thank the Counsel General for confirming the Welsh Government’s position, and I’m sure, like me, he has frequent, and I mean weekly, if not daily, contact with constituents who are very concerned, either that they themselves are EU citizens, or, particularly—in the cases I deal with—that their parents are. They are Welsh citizens, with parents who came sometime in the past, from Poland, or Germany, or whatever, and have not needed to regularise their citizenship, because they simply live here, within the European Union.

I deprecate completely the way the UK Government has used these citizens—our citizens, the people who vote for us here, and have the right to vote for us as Assembly Members—in this way, as a bargaining chip. They need to be made to feel welcome in Wales, and need a clear message from the Welsh Government, at least, that their role in our Welsh public services, and their role as Welsh citizens, is treasured and enhanced here. What further work can the Welsh Government do, from a legal perspective, in particular, and with his work, in ensuring that everyone who lives in Wales is respected as a citizen, no matter where they come from, and that particular rights of EU citizens, especially, can be enshrined in the way that we work as an Assembly, and he as a representative of Welsh Government?

Well, I think the first thing is it’s very important that the Welsh Government does what, in fact, it has done, which is to clearly speak out on behalf of those Welsh citizens, those who may have come from other European countries, who live in Wales, have made their lives here, who work here, and who contribute so much to our economy and family. And that is set out very clearly in the Welsh Government’s White Paper, which has gone to the UK Government, which is the subject matter of discussions. And I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever—it’s a matter that the First Minister will consistently raise—that it sets out our position very clearly:

The rights of EU migrants already living in Wales to remain should be guaranteed immediately and all who live here must be treated with equal respect. We call upon the EU to give a reciprocal guarantee to Welsh and UK citizens living in the EU.’

Has the Counsel General seen the statement on the UK Government’s website, which says that,

When we do leave the EU, we fully expect that the legal status of EU nationals living in the UK, and that of UK nationals in EU member states, will be properly protected.’

And, therefore, the attempt by Simon Thomas to create fear in the minds of those who he described as victims is entirely unwarranted, and, actually, he is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Can I also ask the Counsel General for his opinion on the effect of the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties in this respect? It’s my understanding that it provides that any rights that have been acquired prior to a country withdrawing from a treaty are preserved subsequently, and that any rights and obligations that are only going to be affected are only prospective and not retrospective.

I’ll deal with that latter point first with regard to the Vienna convention. Can you confirm that it’s section 70 of the convention that you’re referring to—or don’t you know?

This isn’t a scrutiny session.

Well, I haven’t got the—[Inaudible.] [Laughter.]

I will tell you then: it is, in fact, section 70 of the convention. It has been the subject matter of legal consideration, and, of course, it is a convention that applies inter-member states. It does not accrue and give rights. It was part of the mythology, in fact, that was raised during the Brexit debate that, somehow, this would not be an issue, but all the leading legal opinion on this is that, not only is it a matter for member states, it does not convey those rights and would not be enforceable through the UK courts.

In respect of the point that was raised with regard to the UK Government’s position of fully expecting those rights to be honoured, that means that the UK Government is raising the possibility—and this is a concern that those individuals have—that they might not be respected. If the UK Government wants to take the moral high ground, and fully expects all these rights to be honoured, perhaps what we should do is take the position in respect of our own citizens and just do what is right, what is honourable and what is moral in respect of European Union citizens who live in Wales, instead of using them as bargaining chips.

My constituency contains representatives of every European country, with the possible exception of Luxembourg and Liechtenstein, and I can assure the Counsel General that this is not something that is being whipped up. It has led to a spike in derogatory remarks being directed at people who come from other European countries. I’m particularly concerned about those who’ve lived in this country for many years, who have brought up children in this country, who are British citizens, and yet face the prospect, at the moment, of being asked to leave this country even though this is where their families live. Could you tell us whether children have any rights in this situation and what is the right of their parents to continue to live in the same country with them?

Could I say, in response to that, that I actually fully agree with the statement that was made by Marilyn Brown of UKIP on ‘Sharp End’ only a matter of weeks ago, that EU citizens living in Wales should be given full citizenship now, and should not be used as bargaining chips, so there’s obviously a division within the position that UKIP has presented.

Can I also say that, in respect of children—that, in many ways, is one of the most upsetting and distressing parts of this whole scenario? I, like Members, have had representations made by EU citizens who actually describe their family situation, their family circumstances. I had one in particular who was worried that he might have to leave, leaving his teenage son and his Welsh wife behind, because, despite having lived and worked in Wales for 40 years, he would lose his entitlement to be a citizen. I hope that those rights are protected, but for those individuals affected, the humiliating position of having been seen to be someone who suddenly has no rights of citizenship is just plain wrong and immoral, and the Welsh Government has urged the United Kingdom Government to think again on this. I would repeat that urge, and I’m sure that is the view of the overwhelming majority of Members of this Assembly.

Thank you for the question. The independence of the judiciary is fundamental to the rule of law. The Welsh Government rebuts very strongly any challenge to the integrity of our Welsh tribunals’ judiciary. Their decisions are based on the evidence before them and are independent of the Welsh Ministers. The Member will be aware of the written statement that I issued yesterday.

I’m not only aware of it, but I’m going to quote from it now. Yesterday, in that statement, you said:

It is equally important that our judicial institutions know that they command the confidence of the legislature’.

How do you think this can be achieved?

I think it is an important statement and it is an important point and it is something that we do have to achieve. Can I say, first of all today, that I learnt this morning that the Lord Chief Justice, in giving evidence to the House of Lords Constitution Committee, made a specific reference to that statement and to two particular parts of that? I won’t repeat the two parts of the statement, but he read out quite a detailed part of it and he went on to say that it will increasingly be a test of this Assembly’s maturity as a legislature and Parliament that it recognises and understands the importance of the independence of its judicial institutions and the principles on which they are founded and operate, and it is equally important that our judicial institutions know that they command the confidence of the legislature and the people of Wales and that they are defended from political interference, unwarranted and unsubstantiated attacks and criticism in the exercise of their public responsibilities.

He, in fact, then went on to say: ‘It seems to be a pretty clear statement, actually, of the duty of the Lord Chancellor’. And he went on to say: ‘I regret that I have to criticise her as severely as I have, but, to my mind, she’s completely and absolutely wrong. I’m disappointed and I can understand what pressures there were in November, but she has taken the position that is constitutionally, absolutely wrong.’

I believe that is an endorsement of the position that we’ve stated as regards my role as law officer and the position of this Assembly. I think what is important is that the individual Members of this Assembly and the leaders of the political parties always stand up for those fundamental principles because they are a bedrock of our institutions, and if we wish to be taken seriously, as a jurisdiction and as a Parliament, then we have to ensure that everyone upholds those principles.

I thank the Counsel General.

I have accepted an urgent question under Standing Order 12.66, and I call on David Rees to ask the urgent question.

I thank the Member for his question. I have had direct discussions with the UK prisons Minister regarding the proposed site for the development of the new prison at Port Talbot. This proposal has the potential to offer south Wales a modern, fit-for-purpose facility that concentrates on rehabilitation, making our communities safer.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer. This decision was taken by the Westminster Government before any public consultation had taken place and I deeply regret that they have not taken the opportunities available to them, although I do recognise that the planning process will allow opportunities, perhaps, for that wider public consultation.

They don’t seem to be identifying specific sites, although it has come to my attention that perhaps it’s on Welsh Government land, on Baglan industrial estate, off Moor Road. Can you confirm that? Can you also identify what impact assessments have been undertaken of local services—health, whether physical or mental health, education, particularly for the inmates who will be going to the prison, and perhaps on transport issues, because, clearly, who will be paying those costs as well? What support services are being identified for those inmates who will be released from prison and where will they be located?

We can use HMP Berwyn as an example, perhaps, as an assessment to be made of the local benefits, but have you been given any indication as to how many jobs are being created as a consequence of this decision, particularly in light of the Cardiff University data that have been released today, identifying the fact that, if Port Talbot is an additional prison, then there’s going to be an overcapacity for the number of Welsh prisoners who will need to be housed. Does that imply that Cardiff and Swansea are under review and possibly fit for closure, which means that jobs will not be created, but be transferred instead, which, therefore, has a different impact upon the site? I recognise that some of those aspects may be for the Ministry of Justice to answer, but have you asked those questions and have you had answers to those questions?

I thank the Member for his question and his interest on that, representing his constituents. Of course, many of the questions he has rightly raised require Ministry of Justice responses, but they are at very early stages. The statement that was issued by the Ministry of Justice was about the indication to consider building a prison in Neath Port Talbot, and those fundamental questions about the indirect consequences that the Member raises are things that will happen through both consultation and also the proper planning processes by the Ministry of Justice.

My team will be engaging with the Ministry of Justice around these issues and, of course, I did visit HMP Berwyn in Wrexham. I think the nervousness of new institutions like this is one that galvanises communities, but I can assure the Member and I would urge him to go and have a look at HMP Berwyn to allay some of his fears. But some of the questions he raises with me today are right and proper, and he does deserve answers to them.

My first reaction is to say that we do not wish to turn Wales into a vast prison. In principle, we do not support superjail expansion. We are not the USA. Do you not agree with me that we need facilities that suit the needs of Welsh prisoners and that we need to devolve justice to Wales and ensure that we do not fall into the trap of building new prisons without discussing prison reform and ways of stopping people offending in the first instance? Do you agree with me that it is unwise to welcome jobs for the sake of welcoming jobs, without seeing all of the detail? So far, we don’t know what this means for the construction sector itself, and we don’t know whether these will be long-term jobs in the public or the private sector. For example, are these going to be zero-hours contracts, short-term contracts, or are they going to be long-term jobs for the community?

We don’t know much of the detail as yet. I’ve been in contact with councillors from my party in Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council, and they’ve told me that it was up to councils and/or the Welsh Government to put forward criteria to call on the Ministry of Justice to apply for those positions. So, I want to understand whether Neath Port Talbot council or you as Welsh Government have actually given them criteria to say that the land in Baglan is okay for them to use, and that you’ve given them that level of permission, so to speak, so that you have indicated that there is a way forward for Neath Port Talbot. I’ve been told that it was a voluntary process and that there was no need for either the council or Welsh Government to put forward an application in that regard.

Is this prison going to facilitate the closure of Swansea and Cardiff prisons? Even if this is the case, why a superprison? Figures from the Wales Governance Centre, as we’ve heard, show that if this prison is built, it would leave Wales with 2,400 surplus places and 600 if Cardiff were to close. Is the UK Government turning Wales into a penal colony while they ship our own prisoners, including women, elsewhere? What are you doing in discussions with the UK Government to repatriate the over 50 per cent of the male population of Welsh prisoners who are not currently situated here in Wales to bring them back, so that their families can support them here in this country?

My final point is that I think the community, so far, has been disrespected by the UK Government. We’ve got a new superschool in Baglan, a new Welsh language school set to be built there, traffic problems are in abundance in that area, and local people need to be part of this conversation, and not be told what is coming to their community by the UK Government.

I thank the Member for her observations. There are many issues. She raises again, as the local Member Dai Rees raised, the issue with regard to Ministry of Justice responses. Can I just say from my experience of HMP Berwyn that around 60 per cent of the employment in the development and construction was of local area personnel, so it was a big industrial boost for that particular area?

In terms of prison reform, there is a Bill going through the Houses of Parliament. It’s not for me to defend the UK administration, but I can say that modern prisons, where they are required under the reform agenda, are much better than our old antiquated prisons that we have scattered around the country. This is a much better way of minimising risk to our communities, also developing family liaison support for Welsh prisoners too, and making sure that we don’t reoffend and end back up with the incarcerating element.

On the issue around women’s prisons, I absolutely agree that we should have a women’s secure unit here for women in Wales. If that is the last point, of course, for incarceration, then I believe it is right and proper that we have facilities in Wales to deliver that.

As both Members have alluded to, there are many questions that remain unanswered by the MOJ. It’s very early stages. I would expect the MOJ, the local authority and the involvement of the Welsh Government to have a full engagement programme with the community. It is only right and proper that that happens.

On your final point on land and land development, the land proposed is currently owned by Welsh Government, but that is not unique to any developer, in terms of private or public sector, where there is a look at the land base across Wales to see where developments may take place. This just happens to be a prison and it happens to be Welsh Government land. While this is a statement being made by the MOJ, it will have to go through the full planning process in order to gain momentum, if momentum at all.

I share some of the concerns of Bethan Jenkins that we might be moving towards a US situation where they actually spend more money on incarcerating people than they do on their education system, and what an indictment that is of the society. But I understand completely what the Cabinet Secretary was saying about the need to house people in conditions that support their rehabilitation, rather than in Victorian conditions that do not do that. But, as part of this announcement yesterday, it was revealed that the UK Government is reviewing certain prisons with a view, I think, to selling them off, and that includes Cardiff prison.

Now, my concerns are twofold. One is that it is very important that, as part of their rehabilitation, people are able to maintain contact with their families. It’s well proven that that is the case. The other is the efficiency of the prison service. It needs to include the proximity of the prisons to the court service, which, obviously, is what is provided at Cardiff at the moment. So, I hope that that will be taken into consideration in the discussions that you’ll be having with the UK Government on how we approach prisons overall. Personally, I absolutely do not support the institution of a women’s prison in Wales, because that is completely contrary to the recommendations of the 2007 report on the way in which we deal with women offenders, because the effects on their families are absolutely devastating. There are very exceptional cases of women who need to be in prison, but they are absolutely exceptions.

The Member raises some very important issues, but can I say that these are very modern facilities? The issue of education and rehabilitation is an important one. Wrexham prison and Bridgend, actually, have got some very good processes where reintegration into the community is an important one. If you lock people up and treat them like wild animals in cages, they will come back out as wild animals out of cages. That’s why we’ve got to have a different offer, and the old facilities that we have lend themselves quite nicely to that scenario. We have to have a new, modern approach to incarceration if that’s the last port of call.

I accept the Member’s point on women’s prisons. It troubles me dearly the fact that we’ve got anybody incarcerated—young people, men or women. But there are some times when this has to happen, and I think if it does have to happen, then it has to happen close to home, where we can still have integration with family connections that lead to better outcomes for people. So, I accept the Member’s very valid point about women’s prisons in general, but where we do need them, we have to make sure that we manage them properly.

These types of facilities—cutting edge in prison terms—are a whole new ball game. The one in Wrexham, a brand new facility, has the Coleg Cambria institution on there, helping people to learn new skills and training, an apprentice process for young people to go through as well, and a healthcare facility that is not only used for inmates, but for the public as well. So, the facilities they have there are in addition to the national health service. There are obviously concerns about the placement of this prison and what it looks like for the future, but let’s not jump to conclusions about what it may look like, because actually it might provide better outcomes for the people of all our communities that we all represent.

Cabinet Secretary, I welcome the news that south Wales is possibly to get a new prison. As someone who has worked in the prison service for many years, I know only too well the problems with overcrowding, which make for an unsafe environment for both prisoners and staff. Having additional prisons in south Wales will allow more prisoners to be housed closer to their homes. This is a massive benefit to rehabilitation efforts. As it stands, a prisoner is housed wherever there is a free space, whether that’s in a Welsh prison, in an English prison or vice versa.

Aside from the obvious benefits to the prison population and prison staff, the construction and operation of the prison itself will deliver huge benefits to my region. Housing 1,600 prisoners will bring much needed jobs to the local economy. It’s not just prison officers who work in a prison; they employ health workers, social workers, education staff, maintenance staff, and a whole host of auxiliary staff. May I say, having worked in a prison, the prisoners were not locked up for 23 hours a day where I worked? They were out for 10 to 14 hours in order to rehabilitate. Okay?

We also play host to thousands of visitors each year who will spend their money in the local economy. However, we have to also have the support of our community. Cabinet Secretary, what role will the Welsh Government play in addressing the concerns of local residents and promoting the benefits also of a new prison, with the emphasis being on rehabilitation?

I think there are important points raised by all Members today. The issue of the application is one for the Ministry of Justice, and they will take that forward. We do have a role in terms of the indirect consequences of building such an institution in Wales, in terms of educational pressures and other local pressures, but it does provide opportunities as well for employment and the procurement of support for the prison site.

Prisons should be the last port of call for any country. The fact that we are incarcerating people is an indictment of those individuals, but also of communities as well, and we have to get upstream of this. Actually, the last place I want to put somebody is in a prison, and that’s why our programme here is tackling issues well upstream of that, working with David Melding around looked-after children and looking after the educational issues around adverse childhood experiences. Because many of the people who are incarcerated, if you look at the profile of them, have experienced childhood experiences that none of us would have wanted to have stacked up in the past. We’ve got to change that. That’s why this is the end bit. Let’s hope that we can have a prison that’s only half full, because I’m okay with that. The fact of the matter is that we do need modern-day facilities with rehabilitation centres that can deliver a better outcome for people. I think we have to give confidence to communities such as the ones Members have raised in the Chamber today that what is potentially being built by the MOJ is a fit-and-proper building for their community.

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his answers so far? I’m still a bit unclear on a couple of points. The first fundamental issue is: how did we get here? I wake up this morning to breakfast television news: ‘Prison in Baglan’. Okay, as a lowly Member of the opposition, I wouldn’t expect to be involved in any consultation with UK Government, but I expect somebody to have been involved with consultation with the UK Government, so can you exactly delineate what consultations have been happening over the last few days, weeks, months, also involving the local authority, so that we can have a clear idea of how we got to where we are today? That’s my first issue.

In terms of the second issue, obviously it’s about my worry about reoffending rates, and the revolving doors of people always going into prison, out of prison, and back into prison. One of the fundamentals of stopping that reoffending issue is actually the back-up locally of the health service, social care, housing provision, education, substance misuse, drug and alcohol services—all of those are devolved to Wales, devolved to this National Assembly for Wales. Remarkably, still, policing and criminal justice are not. That’s one of the issues, presumably, whereby we wake up this morning to find a superprison foisted upon us, because it is not devolved to Wales, as opposed to being the result of delicate discussions going on for several months.

But, there’s a fundamental disconnect. If we’re going to have hundreds of prisoners—1,600 of them—in Port Talbot, and we expect them to be rehabilitated in the community, in a community under strain, where the health service is under strain—I won’t go after it, but we know they’re under strain: education services, social care, housing, substance misuse. All of these devolved services are under strain, and now we’re having hundreds of people in, in addition, trying to engage with those services to stop them reoffending.

Can I ask what analysis has been undertaken to try and encompass what effect this new load of human beings in Port Talbot will have on our local, devolved services? Because I’ve got to say, Cabinet Secretary, I haven’t detected a clamour locally to have a prison by means of job creation, which seems to be one of the arguments. I’ve detected a clamour for a tidal lagoon by means of job creation. I’ve detected a clamour to make sure we still have a steelworks, to make sure we still have jobs, and I’ve detected a clamour to electrify our railways. Singularly, uniquely, I have failed to detect a clamour to have a new prison.

So, I’m wondering how we can resolve these sorts of issues, because we are talking, as has been outlined by Bethan Jenkins, 2,400 surplus places. We’ve got a superprison in Wrexham, a superprison in Port Talbot. Labour in Westminster opposes superprisons, presumably, in England—in favour of superprisons, plainly, in Wales. Two thousand four hundred surplus places with these, down to 1,600 if you close Cardiff, but that’s still 1,600 surplus places that our services in health, education, housing, under tremendous strain already—. Tell me: how are we going to cope?

Well, I thank Dr Lloyd for his questions—very animated he was too. I think—a couple of points, if we break them down. He starts to present the argument of being opposed to this on a constitutional issue. I think that’s unfortunate, because, actually, this is about making sure that our prisoners, our Welsh people who live in Wales, have a facility that can help them with the issue of—[Interruption.] If the Member wants a question, that’s a matter for the Presiding Officer. But the issue, if I may, stems from the—. The argument he presents is that this is something new. The issue around health and social care and other elements that we deliver in our services to prevent reoffending isn’t new to Wales. We deliver that in Cardiff, we deliver that in Bridgend, we deliver that in Swansea already. So, this is not a new anathema; this is about something that we are experienced about and the MOJ pay for those processes, too. But it is something that we have to make sure that we are fully appraised of, and have the funding that follows those procedures alongside.

I also accept that the Member is concerned, on a political basis, about having a prison in any particular area. They, generally, when you apply for a prison in whatever area, aren’t popular, but the Member wishes or seeks to exploit that on a political basis—I think it’s quite unfortunate. Let me tell the Member about the process he started with, about how did this all start—[Interruption.] Llywydd, I’m more than happy to have further questions, but—

No, there’s one more person to ask a question.

The issue here, Llywydd, is my team—it’s not unusual to engage with any prospective developer on an area that is owned by Welsh Government, with the private or public sector, which I said to Bethan Jenkins before. My team have been engaged with the MOJ on the basis of this facility potentially coming forward. Today’s announcement was about that potential coming to light. Now, it doesn’t mean that it’s going to go ahead; there will be a full consultation process, run by the MOJ, not Welsh Government. The only stake we have in this is that happens to be our land, not our project. But the issues that Members raise here today are important ones to make sure, if a facility does come to Wales, it’s the right facility, in the right place, with the right actions to prevent more reoffending in our communities.

Thank you. Finally, Mark Isherwood.

Diolch, Lywydd. As somebody who, like me, has visited prisons over the years, will you confirm that although we all seek that Welsh prisoners should be located as close to home as possible, the categorisation of prisoners sometimes makes that impossible? Secondly, as with HMP Berwyn, can you confirm whether the new proposed prison in Port Talbot will be made up of separate smaller units so that people in the community aren’t living in a superprison environment, but in a smaller, more house or large college environment? In terms of rehabilitation, will you confirm that you’ve sought or have obtained assurances that the rehabilitation programmes guiding HMP Berwyn will be developed in Port Talbot and how your experience of developing devolved, alongside non-devolved, services, in Berwyn will advise your way forward here? Will you confirm that, actually, there will be local jobs? I know, recently, I met the husband of one of my daughter’s friends who has just completed his training to work in at HMP Berwyn, who lives in the Wrexham area. And, finally, how will you build the Prison Advice and Care Trust and Sova’s Visiting Mum project for mothers in prison into Families First programmes in Wales?

Really good questions by the Member, but I hope that his visits to the prison were the same as mine, through the visitors’ entrance, so he could exit. But an important process. I haven’t got that detail, and I had a conversation with Sam Gyimah MP yesterday that was light on detail, because these things still have to be worked out, but what I would suggest is that the model, while controversial at first in the Wrexham area for HMP Berwyn, has proved to be a very positive one in terms of the interaction with communities. There’s lots of volunteer work going on there, education facilities, rehabilitation with third sector organisations. I would suggest that model is well-developed. It will be a sort of learning opportunity as well. But, also, the point of a superprison—Berwyn is the largest prison in the UK, but it is made up of several houses, which are, in effect, smaller prisons in an area, and I know the Member will have visited also. So, the questions the Member asked, and many Members have asked today, are matters for the MOJ in their application to the local authority, as and when that comes forward, but, without doubt, they are serious considerations that must be for the beneficial opportunities, for making sure that we can get rehabilitation with ex-offenders and offenders as we move forward.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

There are no 90-second statements this week.

So, then we’ll go to item 4, which is a debate by individual Members under Standing Order 11.21 on the blue economy, and I call on Jeremy Miles to move the motion.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. I welcome the opportunity today to bring forward this debate on the blue economy in Wales, together with Jayne Bryant, Lee Waters, Angela Burns, Rhun ap Iorwerth and Simon Thomas. The ‘blue economy’ refers to a broad range of economic activities linked to our seas—marine renewables, maritime transport, ports, tourism and marine sports, fishing and aquaculture, marine biotechnology, engineering and manufacture amongst them. Wales is a coastal nation and the seas are already an important part of our economy. We have a growing aquaculture sector, including the largest mussel fishery in Britain. We have innovative marine renewable developments, including the Swansea bay tidal lagoon. We have significant coastal tourism, and our wonderful coastal path, and I’m sure we’ll hear more about these later in today’s debate.

The Welsh Government’s figures estimate the value of economic activity in the maritime economy of Wales at around £2.1 billion GVA, supporting 31,000 direct and 56,000 indirect jobs. It’s worth noting that the Government believes that these figures are an underestimate, and, of course, the sector, in many respects, is still in its infancy. Ocean economies of all sizes around the world are looking to their seas to bolster slowing growth in their terrestrial economies. China, which along with GDP figures also publishes GOP figures—gross ocean product—now believes that its ocean economy accounts for 10 per cent of GDP. The blue economy is an opportunity, of course, for our coastal communities, but let’s be clear: it’s also an opportunity for our inland communities all across Wales, and I would echo calls by my local authority, Neath Port Talbot, for blue economy procurement to come with social benefit clauses, with recruitment, skills, and training obligations, as well as targets for local sourcing. But the blue economy is more than simply the ocean or marine economy. The term itself, blue economy, has its origins in the broader green movement and a growing recognition of the damage to marine ecosystems from overfishing, pollution, and from climate change. So, sustainability is at the heart of the blue economy. A recent review by ‘The Economist’ journal of various countries’ blue growth plans, including those of the EU, found that the principle of sustainability ran the risk of taking second place. In the words of ‘The Economist’,

it seems clear that neither the conservation or sustainability component is the primary nor even necessarily the ultimate goal.’

The blue economy is about developing the economic uses of the sea only within the long-term capacity of the sea to support it and to remain healthy. What we must avoid is blue washing conventional economic activity where the commitment to sustainability is superficial or an afterthought. So, I would urge the Welsh Government to keep the principles of sustainability at the heart of its policy on the blue economy.

But the other side of the coin to sustainability is innovation. The UK trawl-fishing fleet today has to work 17 times harder to catch the same amount of fish that it did in 1889. So, even huge leaps forward in technology are not able to keep up with the extent of overfishing. The leading-edge research role of the higher education sector in Wales is crucial to the kind of innovation integral to the future of our blue economy. Most of our universities are, of course, located near the coast, and much of our marine-based research is world-class, but Dr Ian Masters of Swansea University speculated that the Edinburgh university’s marine research group probably has more research capacity than exists in the whole of Wales. We must address this if we’re not to lose out to Scotland and to Ireland in particular. Research should, of course, be industry-led but we also need to be creating the graduates we need in this sector to develop its full potential. Also, as the SEACAMS project—involving Swansea, Aberystwyth and Bangor universities—has shown, there is a key role for partnerships between industry and higher education, where scientific research can remove risk barriers to investment. Science is the key to understanding the potential and, importantly, the limitations of the seas, be that in biotechnology or aquaculture and elsewhere.

Much of the research into our oceans is international for obvious reasons. The scale of resources required for many projects is often prohibitive for individual countries. Our departure from the EU puts access to vital research funds in jeopardy unless alternative arrangements can be agreed, and I hope that the Welsh Government will continue to press the UK Government on this important priority.

I welcome the fact that the Welsh Government earmarked €100 million of structural funds for marine energy—the largest investment of its kind in the European Union. More broadly, one of the potential obstacles for the development of the blue economy is the relative lack of private investment finance tailored specifically to the sector. So, I would urge the Welsh Government to look, as a priority, at some of the international developments in financing the sea economy. The recent world ocean summit, held in February, was dedicated to that very subject. There is innovative work under way by some of the countries of the Pacific and the Caribbean in particular—small countries with big coasts—to launch blue bonds to invest in the sustainable marine economy and tackling climate change. I would ask the Cabinet Secretary to consider directing the Development Bank for Wales in due course to look at innovative financing products with the private sector, and also, perhaps, with the European Investment Bank to create a blue investment fund for Wales.

But we also face competition for investment from other parts of the UK. Perhaps the most obvious area in which this is true is in the marine renewables sector. We are—yes—at the early stages, but the flipside of that is that people are watching us, and they’re weighing up how things proceed, and they’re comparing that with how they proceed elsewhere. As we know, investors are mobile. We make the case rightly for being a small, well-networked nation, and we need to make sure that that means agile and responsive, as well as easy to access.

Most major energy projects will require development consent and a marine licence. England has a streamlined development consent order and marine licence process, where a developer gets a deemed licence when the order is granted. In Scotland, the two processes run in parallel. In Wales, the DCO is reserved and the marine licence devolved, but Ministers should look at directing that they work in tandem, taking into account the same evidence, where that’s relevant, and working to the same timescales. We should change regulations so that Ministers can intervene and—in relation to larger projects—can be much more hands-on. We should change regulations so that there are binding statutory timelines for Natural Resources Wales to act. By the way, that isn’t a question of levelling the playing field. In fact, it would provide Wales with a competitive advantage over other UK nations, and why should we not want that?

Finally, we should move away from an overly technocratic interpretation of legislation. Yes, there is obviously a place for detailed analysis of impact, but it surely cannot always be the overriding feature. This, to be fair, requires clear policy guidance, so I’d urge the Government to bring out new policy guidance on how legislation can be interpreted. Unless we do that, the risk is that the default position is going to be caution. I hope, then, that we see in the new marine plan and new policy proposals the solution to these challenges, and I hope as well that the marine plan will support a whole-Government approach to the blue economy. By its very nature, it touches on a range of different portfolios, and what we need is a champion to co-ordinate, on a cross-portfolio basis, Government action on the blue economy and to chase delivery right across Government.

Twenty-eighteen is the Year of the Sea. That is a great opportunity for Welsh tourism. Let’s also make it the year when our seas and our blue economy start to realise their full potential. I move the motion.

I’m pleased to be a supporter of this motion today. As a nation, the sea is in our blood. It’s part of our fabric, part of our history, our culture, our literature even—from Cynan’s wild waves of the sea in ‘Aberdaron’ to Ceiriog inviting us all to row with the waves to Ynys Môn. But, just as the sea has provided inspiration to poets of the past, the question for us as we stand on our shorelines looking to the sea today is: how are we going to be inspired anew to take full advantage of that resource as a foundation to create wealth for this generation and future generations?

Now, in our sea and on our coastline there is beauty and leisure to improve the quality of life for the citizens of Wales and to attract visitors. There is food and endless energy. The seas offer a challenge to develop technology and new manufacturing skills, to release all of that potential, and all of this contributes to our blue economy. But, are all steps being taken? That’s the question in terms of taking full advantage of that promise.

It is five years since the Irish Government introduced its strategy to develop its marine economy, ‘Harnessing Our Ocean Wealth’. It is a nice title. If I can refer to Natural Resources Wales, the Welsh name, ‘Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru’, is a better name. The literal translation of ‘Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru’ is ‘Wales’s natural wealth’ and it refers to the natural wealth of the wider benefit of protecting our environment. We can also look at it as a reference to economic wealth, because, certainly, as we look towards our coastline and seas, then there is a natural source of resource there, which can assist in putting Wales on a firmer foundation in economic terms for the future.

What Ireland did was to look at the marine sector in its entirety and that’s exactly what I think we need to do here in Wales. The enterprise committee in the previous Assembly called for a marine strategy, and I look forward to seeing a consultation on a first Welsh marine and maritime strategy starting this year. But certainly, this is something that should have happened many years ago.

We’ll hear a great deal of talk today about the most prominent element in terms of the potential provided by our seas, which is renewable energy. But, of course, that potential isn’t going to release itself. It’s not going to volunteer itself. It’s the work of Government, working with business and with higher education in terms of pushing the boundaries and seeking new opportunities. It is a cause of great frustration for me that the UK Government still can’t make a decision on the future of the Swansea bay tidal lagoon. Is it the risk element that’s holding them back? Well, we do have to take risks. There is an opportunity for Wales to innovate here and let’s not wait for action from the UK Government alone. Plaid Cymru has called on the Welsh Government to take a stake—£50 million possibly—in this initiative so that the whole of Wales can then benefit as that technology develops and finds its way from Swansea bay to the rest of the world.

There is innovation in my constituency, too, in this area. Menter Môn, through the Morlais enterprise zone, is attracting companies from across the world to experiment with the next generation of marine energy production technology off the western coast of the island. I’m very confident that Minesto and their innovative, incredible underwater kite will create a new industry that will not only employ local people but will also export globally.

It’s important to talk of the work of the excellent SEACAMS department at Bangor University in Menai Bridge. Wales can innovate and lead. Talking of SEACAMS endorses what we’ve already heard. I welcome the funding that has been invested in marine research in Wales, but of course European funding has been crucial to that. There is no assurance from the UK Government that they will make up that funding in the future and that uncertainty—let’s be clear about this—threatens to undermine much of the good work that has been done already.

I will briefly mention a few other elements of the marine economy that we could develop. Tourism, for example. We need to take the cruise ship industry to the next step on Anglesey by investing in resources. The food sector in also important on Anglesey. Halen Môn/Anglesey Sea Salt is an example of the purity of our seawater. But, we also produce the best mussels in the world and all of that is exported. So, let’s invest in processing resources so that we can develop that even further.

To close, it’s a strategy that’s needed here and I’m pleased that we today have an opportunity to air out views on what should be the various elements of such a strategy. Our marine economy, as we’ve already heard, is already worth over £2 billion and I believe that there is potential for huge growth and that we would all benefit from that.

I’d like to thank Jeremy Miles for bringing this important debate forward today. Our coastline around Wales is one of the most valuable natural assets we have. My constituency of Newport West is a constituency where the river is prominent, running through the city and into the Severn estuary. The tidal reach of the River Usk has been crucial to Newport’s development from a settlement in the Bronze Age to the city it is today. Historically, the tidal reaches of the Usk have been used as a major shipping port for much of the last millennium, mostly because of its wide and deep mouth, and good navigable access. The northern section of the river is home to the village of Caerleon. In 2011 archaeologists discovered a 2,000-year-old port built by the Romans. The Norman Newport castle stands on the west banks of the Usk, where it was built to guard the settlement and control the river crossing. Further evidence of the Usk’s long-standing use as a major shipping route came when the remains of a fifteenth-century ship—most likely a merchant ship—was discovered, and throughout the nineteenth century the docks played a significant role in igniting the industrial revolution.

The rise and fall of the tide around our coastline has huge potential still after all these years and there are new ways to harness it. Earlier this month I was pleased to join a majority of Assembly Members, cross party, who wrote to the Prime Minister to urge the UK Government to give the green light for the tidal lagoon in Swansea bay. The project would make Wales a renewable energy leader. The potential of this scheme is hugely exciting and I hope that this will be the first of many, harnessing the ebb and flow of the tide. Indeed, following a Swansea lagoon, there are proposals for Newport and Cardiff tidal lagoons, both located in the Severn estuary. The tidal lagoon between Newport and Cardiff would harness the second highest tidal range in the world. The project could comfortably meet the equivalent of the annual electricity requirements of every home in Wales, and the lagoon could represent a significant economic opportunity to the Cardiff capital region. Early independent estimates suggest that over 3,000 construction workers would be required on the build, with the potential to create and sustain over 8,000 Welsh and UK manufacturing jobs in the project’s supply chain. By enclosing approximately 70 km sq of the estuary, the project would be able to pass over 800 million cu m of water through its turbines on each tidal cycle, more than 11 times the volume of water available to the pathfinder project at Swansea bay. The tidal lagoon between Cardiff and Newport could generate the cheapest electricity of all new power stations in the UK.

Tidal lagoons are green, entirely predictable, carbon free, Welsh and eternal. Lagoons could store up surplus energy at times of peak production or low power demand, to provide abundant power when it’s wanted. Importantly, the power of the tide can be tapped with proven technology. A world-beating tidal power sector promises new market opportunities for business in Wales, and as Charles Hendry suggested, it could be a lifeline for some. It will help to decarbonise our economy, replace ageing power stations and revive economies and traditional industries.

The value of the tide and our beautiful coastline is staggering. Opportunities for tourism around our coast are growing, particularly with the wonderful coastal path, which attracts visitors from around the world and throughout the year. In 2014, walkers spent £84 million in Wales and supported more than 1,000 jobs. That is something we should all be proud of and determined to support. So, Deputy Llywydd, for centuries, the tidal flow has been crucial to Wales. There are exciting opportunities for us to become world leaders with tidal lagoon projects, benefiting the people of Wales economically, environmentally and socially. We must do all we can to use our wonderful coastline sustainably to the best of our advantage for future generations.

Can I thank Jeremy Miles and the other AMs who brought forward this very important debate? UKIP acknowledges the huge contribution our coastline contributes to the prosperity of Wales and, as has been mentioned earlier, its future of potential with regard to the Swansea and subsequent lagoon projects. Of course, much of our tourist industry is linked to the quality of our coastal waters. However, in my input to this debate I wish to highlight the impending positive impact for the Welsh fishing industry post Brexit. We are, after all, a country surrounded on three sides by the sea. Ever since we entered the European Union, there has been a catastrophic decline in the UK and Welsh fishing industry. Where we were once huge exporters of fish, we are now large importers. The irony, of course, is that those imports are largely made up of fish caught in what were formally our own waters. There can be no more eloquent an epitaph on the destruction of the UK’s fishing fleet than the fact that 23 per cent of the entire fishing quota allocated to Britain by Brussels now goes to a single Dutch fishing trawler and is landed in Holland. Under the EU’s—

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, of course.

Would you recognise that the shellfish industry is also a very important part of our fishing industry, that some 97 per cent of shellfish from the Menai strait is exported to the European Union and that they are very frightened about the possible effects of World Trade Organization tariffs of maybe 40 per cent on their exports?

Well, of course, that’s why we’re saying that we’re not going to have free access to the European market. It’s typical, I’m afraid, of the attitudes of those who were against Brexit to try and bring out all the negative possibilities from us coming out of the European Union. That’s an example of exactly what I’m saying.

We now understand, from sources in the European Parliament, that there are moves afoot to deny the UK the right to the fishing grounds that were ours prior to entering the European Union. One can quite understand their concern, given that 80 per cent of the Danish fleet catch is in former British waters. The French have 84 per cent of channel cod whilst the UK has only 9 per cent. Add to these the figures of the Spanish fishing fleet plundering our waters, of course, ably abetted by enormous amounts of European funding—€5.8 billion since the year 2000—it is small wonder that Brussels is desperate to carry on exploiting our rich fishing grounds. The UK had some 80 per cent of Europe’s fishing grounds before Ted Heath decided to give it away as part of our entry agreement. Would the socialist parties in this Assembly join me in condemning any move by the Tory Government to negotiate away our rightful fishing grounds for the second time in our history? We must demand that our fishing grounds are restored in their entirety, so that UK and Welsh fishing can start to be restored to its former glory, and Welsh fishermen can once again contribute substantially to the Welsh economy.

I’m delighted to speak in support of this motion today. Indeed, I can do so from a unique position, being the only Assembly Member who sits on both the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee, and the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee. Together, the work of these committees gives me a cross-cutting overview of the significance of Wales’s blue economy.

During the last Assembly, there was an excellent report by the Enterprise and Business Committee into the potential of the maritime economy in Wales. Its contents powerfully support today’s motion. As the report states, there is considerable potential for Wales, both to grow its maritime economy, which we know is already valued at over £2 billion, and to be a leader for the blue economy in our corner of the globe. To quote the report:

The water that surrounds Wales on three sides is a natural resource that could be as valuable for Wales future, as the coal beneath our valleys was in centuries past. But harnessing that potential will not happen by accident. It will need strategic thinking and leadership from the Welsh Government, and coordinated action across departments to deliver the vision.’

A strong and ambitious marine plan is vital to achieving this. But that co-ordinated action cannot just take place within Welsh Government. It must also occur across and between Governments and countries. For example, tackling the barriers facing the development of the ocean energy sector necessitates a more coordinated approach throughout the Atlantic area. We must also work to continue to work with European bodies, such as the Conference of Peripheral and Maritime Regions, and this work must feature as a key part of any Brexit negotiation.

This also makes sure we don’t miss the opportunity to take a co-ordinated approach to our stewardship of the waters around us. As part of this, we also need to develop holistic data collection projects, so that we can monitor changes in our maritime environment effectively. As the motion notes, renewable marine energy is one area where Wales really can become a world leader. We can do this by adopting foundational economic principles, and making the most of the resource all around us. Foundational principles of long-term economic stability can contribute to tackling the vulnerability of coastal communities to economic change.

But the benefit of developing marine renewable energy sources extends beyond this. For example, plans for a network of six tidal lagoons around the UK, with a pathfinder at Swansea, could involve a £40 billion investment. This would see the creation of 6,500 long-term jobs, and could generate nearly £3 billion of gross value added annually. To maximise the benefits of the sector, we need a proactive engagement of local Welsh firms within the supply chain.

Would the Member give way?

Yes.

Thank you. I thank Vikki for giving way, and congratulate her and other colleagues, and Jeremy, for introducing this. Would she agree with me that because of the potential, the very potential of the renewable energy sector, whether it’s tidal lagoons, whether it’s other floor-bed renewables and so on, but also dredging, pipe laying et cetera, in concert with taking forward the potential of the blue economy, we also need to understand the carrying capacity of the different parts of our seas, and we also need marine spatial planning now to be bolted down, so we don’t have piecemeal development, we have planned development, knowing what the capacity of our seabed, and our hidden blue yonder actually is?

Yes, I fully agree with what the Member said there. And I think that that’s what the marine plan really needs to encompass. And also, linked to that is my call for better data collection as well. I think that all those things need to work together.

Going back to the supply chain, then, Tidal Lagoon Power have referred to there being a Welsh core within their planned supply chain, and I’ve been impressed in my discussions with them about the range of local and regional firms that could be involved in producing components for the turbines and generators. By drawing companies throughout Wales into the procurement process, we can then use the blue economy as a driver of prosperity, not just in our coastal communities, but in parts of the northern Valleys, like my constituency of Cynon Valley, too.

Of course, to get the most from the potential of marine energy, we must make sure that our people have the skills that are needed. As the Enterprise and Business Committee concluded, we need to engage in a systematic study of the future skills the blue economy will need moving forward. Energy is crucial here, but we must also take account of the other economic possibilities noted within the motion, such as tourism and engineering. We know that Welsh ports make a very important contribution to our economy, and we know they are increasingly diversifying into the energy sector too, but any mapping exercise must also consider the skills base of the regions around them. But there is no time to waste, with the RMT speaking of a crisis in terms of a maritime skills deficit. The Welsh Government skills agenda needs to take account of this, along with a focus on reskilling and retraining. Indeed, that will be a powerful way to spread the undoubted economic potential of the blue economy.

I very much welcome this debate, one which would have been utterly pointless had it not been for the ‘leave’ vote on 23 June last year. I’m broadly in support of the motion. However, I’m concerned that the motion itself proposes no ideas about how Wales can exploit its coast and seas. It’s not really surprising that many in this Chamber are a little lost on this subject, since most people here were happy to have our fishing controlled entirely by EU civil servants hundreds of miles away in Brussels. Most in this Chamber will be happy to see the EU remain in control of Welsh fishing, and on an almost daily basis, say how bitterly they regret the result of the EU referendum. EU fishing rules, including sharing our waters with practically anyone who wanted to fish them, destroyed fishing communities in our coastal economy. And whilst Labour were breaking their hearts about the mines closing, the EU were busily destroying our once thriving fishing economy. Funnily enough, I’ve heard lots of vitriol heaped upon those who closed the mines—

Would you give way?

[Continues.]—but where was Labour’s outrage at the destruction of our fishing and allied industries? Go on, Huw.

Thank you. I speak as a former fisheries Minister, and I share some of the frustrations. But could I point out to her that before 2010, we were starting to move towards regional seas management, for example in the North sea, and the cod population there, after using the science, is now actually starting to recover? But could I urge her to be chastened against suggesting that we should go back to the days of gunboat diplomacy in the North sea—

I’m not suggesting that. I’m not suggesting that. That’s what you would like me to be suggesting—

Excuse me. You’ve taken the intervention. Let him finish—he’s going to wind up very quickly so that you can respond.

So, my question would be: would she say, regardless of exiting the EU, we actually need to work with other nations, come what may, to avoid that gunboat diplomacy?

I’m not talking about gunboat diplomacy. I’m talking about taking control back of our waters. It just proves my point. You people are still so fixed in this idea that all these decisions are better off made by the EU. We need to make them ourselves. We’ve got an opportunity now to bring back our Welsh waters, to bring back the UK waters, and to exploit and capitalise on it. I’ll get back to what I was trying to say.

Funnily enough—[Interruption.] Funnily enough, I’ve heard lots of vitriol heaped upon those who closed the mines, but where was Labour’s outrage at the destruction of our fishing and allied industries? Nowhere, that’s where. Our fishing fleet, thanks to EU policies, is a fraction of the size it once was. The number of fishermen and allied trades are also a mere fraction of what they should be. Welsh Government, and the other ‘remainers’ in this Chamber, need to stop moaning about Brexit, and scratching their heads about why on earth the people of Wales voted to leave, and start coming up with serious plans about how to rebuild our fishing and coastal economies. I am delighted that leaving the EU—[Interruption.] I am delighted that leaving the EU means that the debate today is possible and can be meaningful. In campaigning and winning the Brexit debate, UKIP has already done more for Wales’s blue economy than any other party in this Chamber, and I largely support this proposal, with a couple of sensible provisos.

Firstly, I recognise that fishing needs licensing and regulation, to control gang masters, as well as fishing stock, vessel safety and so on. But we must also ensure that fees are reasonable and do not preclude people on low incomes from being able to help make ends meet by fishing what will once be again genuinely Welsh waters. The fees collected in recent years—[Interruption.] You can laugh as much as you like, but you’re just proving my point. The fees collected in recent years went into EU coffers, so it would be wrong to suggest that Wales will lose money by reducing fees once Brexit is here. And remember, I’m talking about reducing licensing fees to the low paid.

Secondly, we must ensure that we never go down the route of trying to control fish stocks by a regime that includes, frankly, an immoral practice of discarding. Discards brought about by EU rules were hugely counter-productive and damaging for fish stocks. Although they are now supposed to have been scrapped, the new regime is still leading to a vast amount of dead fish being thrown back.

And finally on fishing, we have the issue of territorial waters, or rather who is entitled to fish. Any suggestion that we should prohibit or charge a higher fee or tariff for fishermen from other UK countries may create a few cheap headlines about protecting Welsh resources, but in practice would hurt the Welsh economy. Any obstacle in the way of other UK boats is likely to be reciprocated and limit the scope of Welsh fishing crews to work in the larger and rich UK waters. Welsh voters chose to leave the EU, not the UK, and their decision must be respected in every way.

Lastly, on using the sea for energy production, let us make a commitment not to establish or expand offshore windfarms. We must also approach tidal projects carefully and with much detailed consideration of the implication to tidal arrays or tidal barrages on people living and working on the coast and the sea. What our economy gains in energy benefits from windfarms is quickly eroded by potential losses in other areas. Energy production from the blue economy, as you call it, or the sea, as most other people call it, must not be allowed to disturb the beauty of our coastal views or other potential uses of the sea.

Welsh Government and the other ‘remainers’ in this Chamber need to stop moaning about Brexit—[Interruption]—and start coming up——[Interruption]—and stop scratching their heads about why on earth the people of Wales voted to leave and start coming up with serious plans. We don’t want more bland statements of broad objectives; we need some practical ideas and proposals. So, I largely support this proposal, but suggest that we proceed with caution and make sure the tide of public opinion is with us at every stage. Thank you.

Before I start with my remarks, can I just express my condolences and thoughts with our colleagues in Westminster this afternoon, where the incident is being treated as a terrorist one for now and our solidarity and best wishes are with them all?

May I congratulate Jeremy Miles for bringing forward this debate? I think these individual Member debates are proving to be a very useful device for introducing new ideas and, for the most part this afternoon, contributions have been thoughtful and well considered. I think, when we do focus on new ideas around the economy, we need to be very clearly concentrated on what domain expertise Wales can bring to bear on new, emerging fields—the importance of leveraging skills, experience and resources that we already have in order to build a competitive advantage or, put simply: what is our unique selling point? The motion notes that Wales benefits from a long coastline and has the second highest tidal reach in the world. So, there is obviously great potential from the blue economy. Just as the City of London and the south-east of England exploit their competitive advantages, or financial muscle, political power and geographical location, we in Wales must leverage our own competitive advantages. We have substantial zero-carbon renewable energy resources. So, how can Wales achieve a competitive advantage in renewable energy, such as we enjoyed when coal was king?

Much mention has been made this afternoon, notably by Vikki Howells, about the potential of the Swansea bay tidal lagoon. I must say, reflecting on the developments, or indeed the lack of developments, on the Swansea bay tidal lagoon, I’m becoming increasingly concerned that we are constraining ourselves from being able to agilely respond to the opportunities that the blue economy offers us. We have managed to give away all the regulatory and legislative powers from this Parliament of Wales to an independent body, which, in itself, I am relaxed about. However, when that independent body is taking so long to reach a decision and is struggling to source the expertise, the implications of that could well be catastrophic for the emergence of Wales as a global player in an industry that could have a huge benefit for climate change across the world. I would say to Ministers that if Natural Resources Wales are not able to respond promptly, we do not want to see the prospect of the UK Government giving all its consents and this project falling over because Natural Resources Wales is refusing to act. So, I would ask Ministers to consider the possibility of reclaiming some of those powers to the National Assembly, should Natural Resources Wales prove unable to discharge them in a responsible manner.

But beyond talk of the tidal lagoon, I think we need, as has been mentioned by Jeremy Miles and Rhun ap Iorwerth—. The blue economy also features less-big-ticket items, if you like, most notably tourism and food. The tourism economy brings about £5 billion a year into Wales and the food industry similarly has significant export potential, notwithstanding the potential trade barriers. They are, of course, as we’ve discussed previously marred by low wages and poor conditions. Part of realising the potential of the blue economy is focusing on these foundational sectors to see how we can lift the skill levels, lift the productivity and the wage levels to make sure that they contribute fully to the Welsh economy and meet their potential.

It’s interesting that mention was made of aquaculture as part of the blue economy and Rhun ap Iorwerth has mentioned the mussel and shellfish production in Wales. It’s notable that the way that we approach this currently means that much of the added value is received by other countries. We export these products, but they’re processed in other countries. It may well be that because of the trade environment we find ourselves in that those dynamics will shift. We should be thinking now about how we can imaginatively respond to that and be able to tackle the issues. We’ve heard this week about the quality of food in our hospitals. We’re debating the potential for procurement reform. Well, we could be looking to capture some of that value internally and instead of exporting and allowing other countries to get the added value from these products, allowing them to be exploited internally where they could be served as high-quality food in schools and hospitals. We need to think laterally around the potential of the blue economy.

I just want to say, finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, about the need for innovation. The development of the fourth industrial revolution is causing great disruption throughout industry and we need to be looking at the development of so-called cyber physical systems, which are growing, where we can bring together the knowledge that we have around algorithms and digital so that the domain expertise that we have in Wales can be applied in a way that meets the challenges of the fourth industrial revolution, so that the marine economy can be part of the future economic development of our country. We have to seize on these opportunities and work is desperately needed to identify where we might offer competitive advantage. Diolch.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure, Ken Skates.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and can I begin by thanking Members for their contributions to this important debate today, taking place as deeply concerning events are unfolding in London. I’m sure that all Members’ thoughts are with the public around Westminster right now as what appears to be a terrorist attack has taken place at Westminster. We can only hope that these are not life-ending events for innocent people.

Wales is well placed to take advantage of the opportunities associated with the blue economy. We’re very fortunate to benefit from a high tidal range and much of our 1,200 km of coastline are potentially suitable for tidal energy developments. It’s a fact that Wales’s profile as a location for marine energy has increased in recent years. In the case of the lagoon development, it’s put Wales at the forefront of the industry worldwide, as Vikki Howells rightly said. Developers from across the globe are showing an active interest in developing projects in Welsh waters. They are recognising that Wales has one of the best marine energy resources and, indeed, support structures available to them.

We’re already supporting large energy investments in onshore renewables, marine, nuclear and so on, including our two largest energy projects: Wylfa Newydd and the proposed Swansea bay tidal lagoon. With the right support and if a strong message is received from the UK Government in support of marine energy, the developers who are actively involved in Wales have indicated an expected investment of £1.4 billion. The total direct investment in marine energy in Wales during 2015 was £45.4 million. By 2017, this had risen by more than 50 per cent to £68.3 million.

Now, Jeremy Miles and Lee Waters talk about innovation as a driver for sustainable growth in the blue economy. We’ve secured over €100 million of EU structural funds to enable innovative developer-led projects that will help drive economic growth in the sector. I do believe that we have a window of opportunity over the next five to 10 years to develop and grow a marine industry in Wales based on the natural resources that we possess. We have opportunities in the tourism sector, particularly the cruise sector, and as has been said, next year has been designated the Year of the Sea in recognition of its value to the visitor economy and also to other crucial economic sectors.

We have, for example, opportunities in our ports. Each year, Welsh ports handle 9 per cent or around 53 million tonnes of UK freight. They provide vital facilities for cruise ships, marine leisure activities and the fishing industry. These diverse and fundamental trades support almost 11,000 jobs at the ports, and sustain other vital parts of the economy. In fact, we have numerous examples that demonstrate how we are already leading the way in marine renewable energy. In north Wales, we have Minesto UK, which recently announced its intention to scale up its Holyhead Deep project by increasing the planned installation of its tidal array to 80 MW. And in south Wales, we have the Ocean Wave Rower scheme. That particular scheme will generate energy from sea waves off the Pembrokeshire coast.

So, from an economic perspective, we recognise how marine energy projects can be catalysts to securing long-term legacy benefits, particularly as we move towards a low-carbon economy. We must gain maximum economic benefits from these projects, and we’ve consistently stated our commitment in principle to doing so by supporting the development of a sustainable tidal lagoon industry in Wales. We’ve conveyed this message to the marine industry. We’ve shown the support that we can give them. We’ve also shown how Wales is ideal for such developments, and we continue to do all of these things.

But the blue economy goes far wider than that, of course, just as Jeremy Miles, David Rowlands, Jayne Bryant and others have rightly said. Many of our industries rely on the sea. We have our ports in Milford Haven, Port Talbot and Holyhead, which contribute significantly to the Welsh economy. And we have Airbus, which transports its wings along the Dee estuary. We have numerous businesses in our successful enterprise zones in Pembrokeshire and Anglesey and, of course, Tata Steel imports raw products required for steel making by sea into Port Talbot, and is capable of exporting steel products as well.

Turning to your call to bring forward an ambitious marine plan, the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs has already said that she will be consulting on a draft marine plan for Wales this very summer. The consultation draft, which is scheduled for release shortly, will highlight the significance of our tidal resources and provide an integrated framework for the sustainable development of our seas. It will explore options for tidal lagoon policy and guidance on wave, wind and tidal renewable energy, and it will include strong support for marine renewable energy projects. It could include maps showing areas of greatest potential, and policy that safeguards our marine assets for future potential use, because as Jeremy Miles has also rightly said, there can be no blue wash in Welsh Government’s blue economy. We now, of course, are waiting for the UK Government’s response to Hendry’s report.

Would—?

My colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs is also setting up a Welsh group to consider that report. Yes, I give way.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for giving way. In discussing marine plans, and I’m conscious that we do have time because I can see some colleagues complaining about the way that we do it. Could I ask him—? In bringing forward those marine plans, to do it on an all-Wales basis is quite ambitious and I wonder whether, in consulting on it, both he and the Cabinet Secretary for the environment ought to look at those areas where the conflicts are potentially greatest, and where the greatest work needs to be done—those areas where dredging, energy, et cetera, et cetera, are most intense and where the potential is greatest, but also the resolution of them through marine plans could be the most satisfying at an early stage.

The Member is absolutely right. In my early discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for the Environment and Rural Affairs, this very issue was raised as a priority consideration, because we must ensure that those areas with the greatest potential are those areas where there are the quickest wins in terms of being able to bring along the entire community and all considerations with them.

I’ll take Members’ points very briefly. I think Rhun ap Iorwerth made a number of valuable contributions regarding Hendry’s report, which, of course, identified that the Welsh Government’s primary role in supporting the industry will be in supporting the supply chain. Also, Vikki Howells’s point that Welsh Government has a very significant role to play in ensuring that the people of Wales have the skills to fully exploit this growing sector of the Welsh economy. More broadly, in developing our cross-cutting strategies, we’ll be considering how we can better support the sustainable use of our natural resources, so that they deliver economic, social and environmental benefits to our people and our communities.

Presiding Officer, to conclude, we cannot be any clearer in our support of the blue economy and I can assure you that the support will continue.

Before I call on Angela Burns to respond to the debate, I just want to say that we are aware of the disturbing events at Westminster. I have spoken to our security personnel here in the Senedd and we are taking appropriate steps, and I will be keeping this matter under review as the business of the afternoon progresses. I’m sure that all our thoughts are with our colleagues and all involved at Westminster at this very difficult time. Angela Burns.

Thank you very much, Presiding Officer, for your reassuring statement on the matters that you have just mentioned.

Thank you, Jeremy Miles, for pulling us all together—a disparate group of people—to bring forward a debate on the blue economy. I’m very grateful that you have done so. Our oceans are probably the single most important resource, which is why, in this debate, we are calling on the Welsh Government to bring forward an ambitious marine plan to support sustainable development of the blue economy and to make it a central plank of the new economic strategy.

Evaporation from our oceans turns to rain that waters us and all of life and refreshes our planet. The oceans have enabled trade and fed us for thousands of years, and rightly, now, as populations grow, with resources becoming more scarce and the challenges of climate change and increased food demands, it is only right and proper that we should turn to our coastlines and our seas and seek to maximise the opportunities afforded by a blue economy.

I felt that some of our contributions today, whilst I did not agree with all of them, it is very good to have that debate, because it is by having debate and honing our ideas and our thoughts that we will come up with a really good plan that can move us forward and I’m very grateful for much of the contributions. I thought that Jeremy made a very clear and compelling reason as to why we need to improve and keep sustainability at the heart of our blue economy.

I’m very glad that Jayne and I think a couple of other people—forgive me if I don’t recall all your names—started to talk about ports, because I was beginning to be slightly worried about the lack of mention of our 32 ports in Wales. We have seven major ports. They handle, as the Cabinet Secretary has said, a substantial amount of tonnage. They directly employ almost 3,000 people and support a further 11,000 to 12,000 jobs. I do think that we have an opportunity with our ports to use them as a locus for the development of our blue economy, because we must get away from the idea that ports equal old-fashioned industry. If I look at Milford Haven port in my own constituency of Pembrokeshire, it’s a trust port, I would argue; it’s a national asset and it’s a growing centre for the blue and green economies. The businesses along the Milford Haven waterway have a strong engineering and tourism pedigree and I think, again, it’s really important to recognise how many of these small businesses—the pipe fitters, the welders, the renewable energies, the makers of turbines—they all stem—. They need a key anchor company. All around Wales we need key anchor companies that can act as that locus for the development of our marine economy. I’d like to, for a few moments, though, Cabinet Secretary, just ask you—and I know you can’t really reply, but I just picked up about the fact that the Cabinet Secretary for the Environment and Rural Affairs will be going out to consult on a marine plan, on a blue economy plan, if you like. Well, I would like to argue with you that, unless it has a strong element of a business focus in it, we will miss an enormous number of tricks. Because it is business that we need to drive our economy. We do cleave in this Chamber to green economy all the time, but I would like to say that there are others out there who are way ahead of us on this. Just look to Scotland, look to the Orkney Isles—they claim to be the marine energy island for the United Kingdom, and we can’t just be an also-ran or a ‘me too’. So, I would like to ask you, Cabinet Secretary, to ensure that, when the Cabinet Secretary for the Environment and Rural Affairs goes out for consultation, your department is heavily involved in this and we look at it with the twin angles of building sustainable, marine-based—we’ve talked about tidal lagoons, we’ve talked about the fisheries, everything—. But we actually understand that, unless it develops or delivers real economic benefit, unless people can get a job out of it, earn some decent money out of it, and enjoy living by our coastlands and our seas, then we will have failed. I would not like to see the business element being missed out of that equation and that we end up with something like the green economic strategy that I think was lauded in the second or third Assembly of which I’ve been a Member, and which was basically written by a man on the back of a fag packet in two days. We could do something really, really good with this. I’d just like to finish by—

Will you take an intervention?

Absolutely. Of course, Oscar.

Thank you very much, Angela. I think Northern Ireland we should learn some lessons from—and Ireland. The 200 mile under sea land, actually, was given by the United Nations to the Irish nation to explore the benefit of under sea water. There’s a lot of treasure there for us to also explore. Thank you.

I think you make a very good point. Just to reinforce the business case, Cabinet Secretary, the Milford Haven waterway, as part of the Swansea bay city deal, has got a massive funding project to design the Pembroke Dock marina—it’s to do renewable energy device design, fabrication, testing. The sector that they are aiming for is absolutely vast, they’re looking at bringing a huge amount of good quality, high-quality jobs to that particular area. It’s a very, very clear business plan that we already have an established port, the third largest in the UK, the biggest in Wales, and a very clear focus. The second area is the Destination Pembrokeshire—the development of the Milford Haven waterway, the building of houses and shops and retail, cinemas, fantastic sports facilities, all, again, centred around having those couple of big anchor companies where you can build a worthwhile, strong and sustainable economy, looking in a creative way. So, I just want to re-emphasise again, when you look across the world, there are many nations that have great examples of how they use their seas to really develop a sustainable marine economy or blue economy, and I’d ask you, Cabinet Secretary, to ensure that your voice is not lost in this. Thank you.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The next item on our agenda is the debate on the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee Report on the implications for Wales of leaving the European Union. I call on David Rees to move the motion.

Thank you, Llywydd, and I move the motion. Before I start, can I join others in expressing my concern over the recent events in Westminster and our prayers for those members of the public and the police service who have been injured as a consequence of this act? I thank you for the reassurances you have provided to us this afternoon about the actions taken here. Llywydd, the Assembly created the external affairs committee—effectively, Wales’s Brexit committee—with a clear principal purpose: to protect the interests of Wales as we leave the European Union and in the arrangements that follow that exit. As part of that work, I’ve been in Brussels, London and Edinburgh over the past month to engage with elected Members, stakeholders and officials, in order to press the issues of importance to Wales, to seek co-operation where appropriate, and to identify emerging tensions where they exist.

Regardless of how we voted in the referendum, regardless of our political affiliations, we must be united in representing Welsh interests as the Brexit process begins in earnest. It is clear to me that our voice is in danger of being lost amongst the many voices calling for attention under the issues today. As an Assembly, we cannot let that happen. The process of leaving the EU is rapidly evolving, and we only need to highlight the announcement on Monday that article 50 will be triggered next Wednesday to demonstrate that fact. The task given to the committee of seeking how we can protect the interests of Wales has never been more important as we move into negotiations and beyond.

Llywydd—Dirprwy Lywydd—the report we are debating today has already played a significant role in representing the issues of importance to Wales alongside the Welsh Government’s White Paper. It also started the task of sketching out the tasks ahead of us as an Assembly. Our work has not been to rerun the referendum debate; it has been to focus on identifying the issues that are important to Wales as we leave the EU. It has not been an exercise in trying to identify the pros and cons of leaving the EU; it’s been an inquiry into the implications for Wales of leaving the EU. Its strength rests on the fact that it was agreed by all eight members of the committee, representing each of the political parties in the Assembly, and Members who were, actually, on both sides of the referendum debate. I pay tribute to their work and their ability to find a consensus.

I wish to place on record also my appreciation for the work and support provided by the clerk and his team. I’ll also take this opportunity to give a special thanks to Gregg Jones, the former head of the Assembly’s Brussels office, whose knowledge and understanding of the EU has been invaluable to the committee. We have an excellent successor to Gregg in Nia Moss, who continues that excellent relationship.

If there was any doubt to begin with, the evidence we gathered confirmed that Brexit raises broad and complex issues in Wales. It cuts across many areas of policy, as well as raising fundamental constitutional questions about devolution and the power dynamic between the UK Government, Parliament, and the devolved administrations and legislatures. The first part of our report identifies the emerging sectoral issues for Wales, with the aim of advancing understanding of the complex challenges faced by Wales as the UK exits the EU.

On the Welsh economy, the report finds that the imposition of barriers when trading with the EU would pose significant risks to the Welsh economy. The relative prominence of the manufacturing and agricultural sectors, compared with the rest of the UK, heightens the Welsh economy’s vulnerability to trade barriers. The vast majority of the evidence we received showed that ensuring free trade for the single market with no tariffs and no barriers is of crucial importance to the Welsh economy. The risk to the Welsh economy of an exit that moves to World Trade Organization arrangements is such that the committee calls for a focus on transitional arrangements after we leave the EU, something I am aware that is also called for by the Welsh Government. Even a relatively short period of time spent under World Trade Organization rules will damage our manufacturing and agricultural sectors, and I’m not afraid of reiterating that this could have serious consequences for the Welsh economy. Transitional arrangements must be an important consideration of the negotiations.

The second part of the report focuses on constitutional issues and draws a number of conclusions that are aimed at strengthening the Welsh role in the process, at both Welsh Government and Assembly level. We are in discussion with the Welsh Government about the scrutiny arrangements we wish to see applied to inter-governmental relations, and we are working with colleagues from each of the UK’s legislatures to explore working together to strengthen our collective approach to this task.

Now, I thank the Government for its response and its willingness to engage with the committee’s work. I hope that this level of engagement continues. Before talking to the recommendations, I want to emphasise that, whilst we made six recommendations, we drew many further conclusions—actually, around 60. I do not intend to explain all 60, Dirprwy Lywydd; I am sure you appreciate that. But we hope the Government and Members take the time to look at those.

Our first recommendation calls on the Welsh Government to publish all evidence on which it bases its position. This has been accepted in principle, but I hope that the Welsh Government will reconsider this and actually act upon the recommendation to offer greater transparency. I am grateful for the information that has been provided by the Government in its White Paper. However, we’ll press for more detailed evidence, and this will be a feature, I think, of the ongoing scrutiny of the Welsh Government, to actually see where they’re coming from and the evidence they are using.

Our second and third recommendations call on the Welsh Government to outline the administrative changes that it’s made in response to the referendum vote and the future role of its Brussels office—again, these have been accepted and, again, the information provided to date is appreciated. But I would like to press for further information and perhaps something we could look at in more detail when it comes to budget scrutiny in the autumn.

Our fourth recommendation calls for the Government to provide us with a Brexit risk register—again, accepted in principle, and we look forward to receiving the outputs from the fresh risk assessment exercise that is due to commence after article 50 is triggered. Perhaps the Cabinet Secretary could elaborate a little on this during his contribution this afternoon.

Recommendation 5 sought information on the steps taken by the Welsh Government to ensure the maximum amount of European funding is secured and utilised before Brexit occurs. The figures provided suggest a good level of progress in this regard, though some funds are in a better position than others. We will reflect upon this information and will continue to monitor progress. Additionally, we are currently undertaking an inquiry into regional policy, and hoping to report before the end of May on that.

Our sixth and final recommendation relates to the role of Welsh Government in the negotiations, an area where our position aligns with that of the Welsh Government. It is essential that the Welsh Government has a full role in shaping the UK’s negotiating position, and direct participation when those relate to devolved powers or affect devolved powers. Whilst the Welsh Government is making these representations to the UK Government, we are also exploring the level of engagement that there is between the Welsh Government and Whitehall. We have written to a range of UK Government departments, as well as the Welsh Government, and we are grateful to those that have actually already provided responses, and we intend to assess these as part of our scrutiny work, and we will be reporting upon this in the future.

Dirprwy Lywydd, it is vital that our voice is heard and listened to. Whilst obviously in the interests of Wales, I believe also it is in the interests of the wider UK that it is done. Our colleagues in Scotland have also expressed the same view, that it’s important that their voice is listened to. We are no different. I commend this report, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I look forward to hearing Members’ contributions this afternoon.

Thank you. In accordance with Standing Order 12.23(iii), I have not selected the amendment to the motion. Simon Thomas.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Can I, at the outset, say that I am personally relieved to have had messages that my own family and colleagues in London are safe, but very much saddened to hear of an attack on a fellow Parliament, and hope that everyone will be well and that things will turn out to be controlled? It’s a very shocking thing, and it’s very relevant to the fact that we are debating a big exercise in democracy that has led us to this position, and it’s as well to remember the role of Parliaments and representative democracy to ensure the rule of law and peace—peaceful resolution of disagreements.

Can I turn to the report and say how much I welcome this report? Very comprehensive, very well thought-out, and very substantial evidence that has been brought to bear, and I very much agree with the way that the Chair has set out the conclusions, which are many—not so many recommendations, because we don’t quite know how some of these things will be panning out, but it’s important we come to some early conclusions about the issues that are important for Wales, our economy, and our public services. I think that I can boil it down, however, to two main things, which is about funding and powers. And when we look at powers, first of all, I think there are several important issues discussed in this report that I’d like to put Plaid Cymru’s view on.

First of all, in the repatriation, as it’s called, by the UK Government of powers from the EU following the decision to leave the European Union, it is important and vital that this is done on a question of parity of esteem between the four nations here in the United Kingdom. I think UK-wide frameworks, which are addressed in the context of conservation, the environment and agriculture in the report, are to be welcomed, and we can work on that basis, but that basis must be one of agreement, not one whereby powers are repatriated to Downing Street and then imposed upon the rest of the United Kingdom. That does mean, in our view, that there should be some development of a UK council of Ministers, and there should also be a development of an independent arbitration or independent adjudication method of dealing with disagreements. We will not be able to go from meeting to meeting, as the finance Cabinet Secretary has said in the past, with no minutes, no progress, no kind of development of ideas. We must have properly run councils of Ministers, and a proper independent system to arbitrate, if necessary, as well. When those powers also return, we’ll need to be sure that those that are exercised now at a European level, which I think need to be still exercised, where relevant, at a European level—I’m thinking in particular, as I asked earlier to the Counsel General, of powers around environmental legislation, environmental justice, the ongoing work of the European Court of Justice, which won’t directly relate to the UK but has a bearing on some of our jurisprudence. That needs to continue as well so that UK citizens have a clear idea of how issues that run across national borders can be resolved again in a peaceable and agreed manner. So, I think there’s an issue there that we need to look at in terms of powers as well.

It does raise the question of what happens if the great reform Bill, proposed in Parliament, does not actually address the devolution of powers that come to Wales. We believe that there’s a good argument, as the Welsh Government’s own White Paper sets out, for a continuity or continuation Bill of these powers. That could provide two benefits. It defends our current constitutional status, and it also will allow us to maintain our standards in terms of agriculture, animal welfare, climate change, environmental benefits and so forth. I note—it’s not a recommendation as such, but it is a conclusion of the report that says, in particular, that the Sewel convention should be considered as extending in this area, particularly—and we do hope that this will transpire—particularly when we have a significant vote in the Westminster Parliament on the deal—on the agreement; on what the Brexit agreement is. There will be implications here that I think we need to vote on here, and we will need to be part of informing the final decision by the UK Government and the Parliament at Westminster on that matter.

The second broad theme—if I can touch on it briefly, although it’s huge—is funding. I think, from the point of view of agriculture, in particular, the report addresses the real need to preserve our participation in the single market. The imposition or the fallout that some people seem relaxed about in Westminster of going straight to WTO rules would be disastrous for Welsh agriculture. The effective tariff on fresh beef, for example, is 84 per cent. The effective tariff on a lamb carcass is 45 per cent. Those figures were presented to the climate change committee by Hybu Cig Cymru. These are not figures that can be immediately dealt with in terms of Welsh agriculture.

The final aspect, of course, in terms of funding is: when we get the resources returned to us from Brussels, they must be distributed in the UK in a fair manner, and certainly cannot be done according to the Barnett formula. We have done better in Wales from European funding than other parts of the United Kingdom, and I think it’s important that we send a strong signal that we don’t expect to be any worse off due to the democratic decision that was made by the people of Wales and the people of the United Kingdom.

I won’t be calling further speakers to this debate. Events in Westminster are still unfolding, but are being treated as a serious terrorist incident. In light of those circumstances, and in discussion with business managers of all political parties, I have decided to adjourn today’s proceedings under Standing Order 12.18. Business will be rearranged accordingly. As I said earlier, our thoughts are with all our colleagues and all involved currently in Westminster. Business is adjourned.