National Assembly for Wales

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Over its lifetime, the invest-to-save fund has supported some 200 projects worth £200 million, including improving productivity through energy efficiency and decarbonisation. Savings are recycled and reinvested in initiatives such as hospital solar farms and green infrastructure. 

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response? I think one of the unfortunate things is that good news and good projects don't necessarily travel particularly well in Wales. Wales has a productivity problem worse than the rest of the UK. To improve productivity, often updated equipment is needed. This includes increased investment in IT systems and updating current existing equipment by modernising. Another way to improve the process in the healthcare system is suggested by the Health Foundation, and this involves using experts in system thinking and engineers designing systems that can help to deal with complexity. Using experts who can analyse the purpose and function of a system and how it can be arranged can make the system more productive. Should more capital money be provided for invest-to-save to improve productivity, including using artificial intelligence?

Llywydd, I thank Mike Hedges for that further question and for his sustained interest in this topic. I was glad to have the opportunity, in front of the Finance Committee recently, to set out the ways in which future iterations of an invest-to-save scheme are being developed within the Welsh Government. In what Mike Hedges said, Llywydd, you can see the two key components of a successful invest-to-save scheme. You do need capital investment, but then you need the skills alongside it to take advantage of those new possibilities. The health field has a number of successful examples of previous invest-to-save schemes that exhibit both of those characteristics: digitalisation of patient records, meaning that they can be accessed more quickly and that you can use the staff resources you have more efficiently; and electronic prescribing, which cuts down on human errors and allows for greater precision in the medicines that are provided to patients. There's more that we can do. Artificial intelligence, as Mike Hedges said, provides a whole new set of possibilities, and I think a future Senedd Government would do well to look at the way in which invest-to-save techniques can accelerate their adoption.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for the answer that you've given. As you know, in principle, we fully support the invest-to-save initiative, but it is something that we need to see local government and other organisations in receipt of public funds also implementing within their own organisations, not just something that is happening as a result of a fund that the Welsh Government has set up. What advice and support and encouragement are you giving to local government and to other public bodies in Wales that are responsible for their own finances to make sure that they're delivering the value for money that taxpayers expect?

Llywydd, Darren Millar makes important points. When I was the last finance Minister and reviewing applications for invest-to-save funding from the Welsh Government, it was always the first question that I asked: how is this organisation using its own capacity in that same way? The Welsh Government's contribution should be in addition to the things that they do, and sometimes at the more innovative end, to allow them to use their funds on the more tried-and-tested ways of gathering those benefits. So, in my conversations with local government in particular, I'm always keen to make sure that they are looking for those opportunities. I think I highlighted one during the budget debate yesterday, which is local authority led, and that is the work that Neath Port Talbot Council has been doing to use new artificial intelligence to save social workers from the laborious business of writing up interviews when they've happened. They reckon it's freeing up 7.5 hours per worker, per week to be able to do face-to-face work with users, rather than the more mechanical side, which now artificial intelligence can do for you in real time. The health service is equally moving in that direction, where doctors doing wards will be able to take records simultaneously, not having to use their valuable clinical time to catch up on things afterwards.

I thank the Member for that. Llywydd, the Welsh Government is committed to ensuring economic growth in north Wales. Across the Cabinet, measures are being taken forward, such as the AI growth zone for north Wales, approvals for the free port and investment zones, and direct support to businesses such as Siemens Healthineers. Together, they will provide economic growth for the citizens of north Wales.

Of course, much of that follows initiatives by the previous UK Government. But although a stronger economy is needed for quality, sustainable public services, the Institute of Directors' chief economist has said business leaders are worn out from the past year's rollercoaster of uncertainty and tax increases, and that 80 per cent of business leaders feel negative about the UK autumn budget. The Federation of Small Businesses said the budget risks continuing the economic doom loop. The Confederation of British Industry said the UK budget makes it even more expensive for employers to offer jobs to young people and job seekers, and the British Chambers of Commerce said the budget risks damage to rural economies.

The economy is stagnating, contracting in September and October, inflation remains above target, annual debt payments have surged to £100 billion, and UK unemployment has soared to 5.1 per cent, and to 6.1 per cent in Wales, hit by the double whammy of two Labour Governments. All of this impacts on economic growth in north Wales and beyond. So, did you listen to these warnings? If you did, what action, if any, did you take to break this cycle of economic hopelessness and kick-start the economy of north Wales, and the whole of Wales, in acknowledgement of the concerns raised?

Llywydd, my advice to the Member when he comes across people afflicted with economic hopelessness of the sort that he has described is to invite them to north Wales, where they will see an economy that is thriving, where unemployment is below the UK and the Welsh average, where wages are above the UK average, and where there are developments, from investment in Holyhead in the west, to the manufacturing readiness centre in the east. I'm baffled by the idea that the way in which you make a success of the Welsh economy is to use every opportunity that comes your way to run it down, particularly when that flies in the face of the evidence in the very region that the Member represents.

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, which part of next year's budget do you think best supports economic growth in Wales?

Well, Llywydd, there are a series of ways in which the budget supports economic growth. I tried to explain yesterday in the budget debate that the three things that governments can most helpfully do to support that effort is through investment in skills, and the budget fully supports that through higher level apprenticeships and many other ways in which the skills investment in the Welsh population can be taken forward: investment in infrastructure—the enormous investment that we are making in rail, the investment we are making in digital connectivity here in Wales, with another £20 million investment in the budget in that area too; and in the work that we carry out to support innovation in the economy, because the jobs of the future will come from those innovative companies, those new ways of working. We heard it in Mike Hedges' earlier question. In all three ways, the budget supports economic growth.

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. We heard a few moments ago from Mark Isherwood some of the concerns expressed by businesses up and down Wales as to the future of the economy here in Wales. Despite the rhetoric from the UK Labour Government to say the economy is their No. 1 focus, unfortunately, here in Wales, we've seen unemployment rising and at its highest now since 2015. We now see economic inactivity at 24.5 per cent, the highest in Great Britain. And at a time also when businesses in Wales are receiving estimated revaluations of business rates on their doormats, they're expressing to us some of the concerns around that. Indeed, today, a business got in touch with me this morning to share that their bill is going up by £117,000 next year as a result of this revaluation. And they said,'Look, that's probably six jobs' that they're going to have to understand how they can manage in the future. So, I wonder, Cabinet Secretary, if you recognise the pressures that businesses like that are under. And will you commit to, before the final budget arrives in this Senedd, reviewing what opportunities there are to minimise the pressures on businesses like this as a result of their revaluation?

Well, Llywydd, the Senedd approved yesterday the plan for transitional help for people whose bills have gone up as a result of revaluation. Revaluation is a very important part of the way in which we keep business rates in tune with the changing nature of the Welsh economy. Only 20 per cent of businesses in Wales will see their bills rise more than £300 a year before other reliefs are applied. And for that 20 per cent of businesses, we will invest £116 million over a two-year period to smooth the path for those businesses who see their rates rising. I think that is a generous scheme.

I understand there will be some businesses, but they will be few in number, who will see rate rises of the sort that Sam Rowlands has identified. For those businesses, transitional rate relief will mitigate those bills by two thirds in the first year and a third in the second year. And it will be three years, the full revaluation cycle, before those businesses are asked to make the contribution that they're being asked to make, because revaluation has identified them as a sector that—. In the ups and downs of revaluation, with some businesses having falling bills and some business facing rising bills, revaluation is designed to make the system fair across the board.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that response and, of course, we supported that proposal yesterday for those transition payments, because we recognised it was a take-it-or-leave-it proposal, and we think it's right and proper that that support should be given to those businesses. But what we're hearing now, of course, is that, for some of those particular businesses, it's a real challenge for them, despite the support that has initially been laid and agreed.

A particular concern comes from those in the hospitality sector who, of course, support our high streets to thrive. And you have, of course, made some particular support available to retail on our high streets, and some of the logic behind that, of course, is to mitigate against some online competition. But, of course, we know that hospitality on our high streets makes a significant difference in terms of how our high streets thrive and help our retail to thrive also.

So, with that in mind, and particularly on hospitality, it's actually the employment they offer to young people. We know that employment amongst our young people in Wales is particularly poor. There are concerns that fewer young people will go into work as a result of the pressures that they're facing. So, again, there's an opportunity before the final budget to review what may be able to support the hospitality sector in particular. Is that something that you're willing to do, to give assurance to that sector that their issues are being taken seriously and so we can see young people in the future also being employed?

Well, Llywydd, I think the evidence demonstrates how seriously the Welsh Government takes the hospitality sector because, according to the industry's own analysis, two thirds of hospitality businesses in Wales pay no business rates at all, and that is because of the level of support that is already there in the system.

We will set a lower multiplier for next year for high-street retail, and that's because of two reasons. This is the first use the Senedd has ever made of these powers, and my judgment was that we should start relatively modestly in order to be able to assess the effectiveness, or otherwise, of that lever in assisting those businesses. And if it is a successful lever, then a future Senedd will want to see whether it's something that they would wish to see extended more widely. The reason why we start with high-street retail and not with hospitality is for the reason that the Member set out in his final question, Llywydd, and that is that high-street retail is uniquely exposed to online competition. You can't eat a pizza online. Your hospitality industries are there and you've got to visit them in order for them to work. That isn't true of high-street retail where there is so much online availability. That's why we haven't started with hospitality, but the use of differential multipliers, if it's a successful policy tool, will be something that a future Government will want to take into account and see if that too should be extended to hospitality.

I thank Gareth Davies for that question, Llywydd. I met last week with the Cabinet Secretary for Education, to discuss the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Act 2025. In the Vale of Clwyd, the Act will support Denbighshire local education authority to build on its successes in expanding Welsh language education in the county.

The percentage of Welsh speakers in Denbighshire fell from 24.6 per cent in 2011 to 22.5 per cent in 2021. But what's more concerning is that the fall was more pronounced in younger people. Between those years, 2011 and 2021, the number of children aged three to 15 who speak Welsh fell from 45.9 per cent to 37.3 per cent. There's also quite a large divide in the Vale of Clwyd between the south of the constituency and the coastal areas up in the north, with census data showing a divide between lower and upper Denbigh in Welsh language proficiency, which is like a microcosm in the context of the whole constituency, with low levels of Welsh speakers in the north. With commitments to reaching a million speakers by 2050, which we're all subscribed to, I'm not seeing much progress on this in my constituency, and in fact we've seen a regression. So, can the Cabinet Secretary outline how the Welsh Government is working with Denbighshire County Council to ensure adequate provision of Welsh language education in the Vale of Clwyd, particularly in Rhyl and Prestatyn, where the rates are significantly lower?

Well, Llywydd, I'm pleased to be able to bring some good news to the Member, because the recent evidence from Denbighshire, I think, demonstrates that the county is achieving success in many of those areas on which we will rely to turn out those confident and independent speakers of the language for the future. There are more young people than ever before in secondary education through the medium of Welsh in the county. The transfer rates from cylchoedd meithrin to primary schools are higher than across the rest of Wales. There has been a trebling in the number of children attending Welsh-medium Flying Start provision over the last three years alone, as a result of the expansion in Welsh-medium Flying Start provision. And there's strong growth in Denbighshire in late-immersion take-up. That's one of the great success stories of Welsh education in recent years. Over 50 learners in the county have benefited in the last year alone, with the development of late-immersion services in the county supported by hundreds of thousands of pounds in the Welsh Government's late-immersion grant.

We know that late immersion can be particularly important in parts of Denbighshire and elsewhere where there are fewer Welsh speakers in the first place. So, on all of those scores, I'm pleased to be able to give the Member an assurance of our shared commitment, and I echo the point that Heledd Fychan made earlier on the importance of the shared commitment that there has been across this Chamber to the Welsh language during this Senedd term, but those investments are working and ground is being gained in bringing young people into Welsh-medium education and to turn out those confident and independent speakers of the language for the future. 

The Vale of Clwyd has a long tradition of Welsh language education, and I hope that the Cabinet Secretary will join me in wishing a big 'Pen-blwydd hapus' to Ysgol Glan Clwyd as they will be celebrating their seventieth anniversary as the first Welsh language school in the area. Since 2021, Denbighshire County Council has received more than £537,000 from the Welsh Government's late-immersion grant, of which you were just speaking. The success of the late-immersion provision in Ysgol Glan Clwyd builds on their well-established primary provision. The local authority is also in discussions with the headteacher at Ysgol Brynhyfryd to open a Welsh-medium late-immersion unit at the school, which will be really welcome. So, Cabinet Secretary, may I ask what more can be done to spread awareness of this important provision, supporting children across Wales to move into that area and achieve bilingualism?

Thanks to Carolyn Thomas for her further question, Llywydd. She's absolutely right that the success of late immersion is a story that we need to celebrate and to tell, because it does remarkable things in bringing young people who sometimes have no Welsh language capacity at all to be people who are confident enough to receive their education through the medium of Welsh in a very accelerated timetable. Earlier in the summer, I was at Ysgol Henry Richard in Ceredigion, in Tregaron, and I met there a young man who had come to Ceredigion from overseas who had, within a period of weeks, through the late-immersion system gone from having no Welsh at all to taking all of his GCSEs through the medium of Welsh. It was a genuinely remarkable story. He pointed out to me when I said how remarkable I thought it was that, of course, Welsh was now the fifth language that he spoke, because he came from a home where speaking many languages was just part of the everyday way in which people think the world can be seen and navigated.

I think the other way in which we can do more to celebrate and to draw attention is the point that Carolyn Thomas made at the start of her question, Llywydd. I'm looking forward, I'm going to be in Ysgol Glan Clwyd in January, to take part in their celebrations of their seventieth anniversary. That is a remarkable record and just demonstrates what is possible when you have people who are committed and determined to make a success of the work that they do on behalf of the language. 

Llywydd, I work with all Cabinet colleagues to maximise the resources available to them. Specific allocations within portfolios are for Cabinet Secretaries themselves to determine.

Thank you for your answer, finance Secretary. Hospitals in England have been asked to slow down treatment for Powys patients despite having capacity to treat them. This means that Powys and English patients are being treated differently, even though they’re waiting for treatment in the same hospital and being seen by the same health professionals. In your budget discussions with Plaid Cymru, finance Secretary, did you discuss if any of the £180 million allocated to the health and social care budget will be allocated to Powys Teaching Health Board to address this completely unacceptable position? If you didn't discuss this, can you confirm if any of that £180 million will be provided to Powys Teaching Health Board to allow them to buy capacity in England based on English waiting time targets, so that this completely unacceptable position and postcode lottery can end with urgency? Diolch.

My discussions with Plaid Cymru focused on the need for us to maximise the investment that we can make in Wales's most important public service, the health and social care service. As a result, there's an extra £180 million available for those purposes, over and above what was already in the budget, that will now be in the final budget when it comes to be voted upon here on the floor of the Senedd. I look forward to the Member's support for that budget, given the points that he's made this afternoon. It's then for the Cabinet Secretary for health to use the new and additional resources that will be available in that portfolio area to meet the many needs that he will be attending to. I'm quite certain that the needs of people in Powys will be part of his consideration.

Cabinet Secretary, I don't think you really answered my colleague Russell George's question about whether that £180 million was going to be spent in Powys Teaching Health Board. Russell George has already outlined the challenges the health board are facing. I would have thought that in the budget discussions that you had with the finance spokesperson from Plaid Cymru, some of these things may have come up in the discussion about how that money would be spent. I'd be pleased if you could try and answer the original question from Russell George: was any of that £180 million as part of that budget discussion going to be allocated to Powys Teaching Health Board?

I answered the Member's question very directly, and I'm happy to repeat it again. If we're recruiting people to support the budget when it comes in front of the Senedd on 27 January, I'll be happy to welcome the Member's support for it as well. Let me explain to him, as I explained to Russell George, the way the budget works: I am responsible for the allocation of maximum funds that I can manage to mobilise to my Cabinet colleagues for all the important things they do. The result of discussions with Plaid Cymru is that there is £180 million extra that will now be available to my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care. It is for him to determine how those resources are best used, not me as the finance Secretary. My job is to get the money to the Cabinet Secretary; it's the Cabinet Secretary who is directly responsible for all the different things that we do as a Government. It's for the Cabinet Secretary to make sure that that money is put to use for the best possible purposes, and I'm quite certain that that will include consideration of the needs of the people of Powys.

Many businesses in Monmouthshire benefit from the £335 million of non-domestic rates support that is being provided in this year. That includes permanent reliefs worth over £250 million annually. Yesterday, the Senedd confirmed transitional relief for businesses following revaluation, releasing a further £116 million in support for business rates bills.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary, for that response. I think we'd all agree there were terrible scenes in Monmouthshire this last couple of weeks with the flooding. I know businesses as a whole are thankful for the support that has been made available and the level of business rate relief that is currently offered. However, many still have concerns that it doesn't go far enough.

I note that following similar awful flooding in Rhondda Cynon Taf in 2024, there was a resilience scheme introduced of up to £10,000 per business to fund anti-flood measures in addition to extra business rate relief for those who qualified. While understanding this is an issue for local government, would it be possible for the Welsh Government to consider underwriting further offers of business rate relief to provide more time and support for those impacted by the flooding to recover? Would it be possible for you as Cabinet Secretary and your colleagues to make representations to the UK Government for additional allocations from the Pride in Place fund to allow communities in Monmouthshire to receive the long-term improvements and protection that they need following the flooding?

I thank the Member for that question and absolutely acknowledge the devastating impact that flooding on the scale experienced in Monmouthshire can have on individuals and businesses. Working with the council, the Welsh Government has provided grants of up to £3,000 for businesses affected in Monmouthshire, and the full package of support also includes discretionary non-domestic rates relief for affected properties. I was very glad to have the opportunity to meet the leader of the council and the chief executive, who Peter Fox will know very well, to discuss directly with them the needs of the county. I'm very happy to have further discussions with them to see whether there is further assistance that is needed beyond the immediate aftermath. I think we were focused that day on the here and now, the things that needed to be done immediately. I recognise, as we did in the case of RCT, that there is a longer tail of impact that is left by flooding on that scale, and I and my colleagues in the Welsh Government are very open to continued discussions with political and local authority leaders.

The recent flooding in Monmouthshire was indeed very devastating. The Welsh Government flood scheme, which offers affected businesses a small pot of money, of course, was very welcome, but the scheme is discretionary, as you just said, as is the relief. It does not trigger automatic business rates relief, and councils decide relief case by case.

In England, flood-hit businesses get automatic 100 per cent business rate relief for a set period, on top of recovery grants. Rates bills are paused or written off immediately once an area is designated. In Wales, there is a delay because businesses must apply for the grant, wait for assessment and payment, and there is no automatic rates relief whilst they wait. Full rates are still due unless the council chooses that discretionary relief.

In Monmouthshire and communities across my region and Wales, traders are facing crippling repair bills, failed insurance claims and weeks of lost trade, and need that immediate help. After years of flooding, Cabinet Secretary, why has the Welsh Government still failed to put in place automatic and immediate business rate relief for flood-hit businesses? Diolch.

It is because our judgment has been that it is better to work through local authorities with their knowledge of circumstances on the ground, and, instead of spreading whatever help is available in a general way across everybody, to concentrate the help where the help is most needed. That judgment is not best made in Cathays Park in Cardiff. It is best made by local authorities who are there on the ground, understand their local circumstances and are able to mobilise the help that is needed in a way that concentrates on those businesses that need the help the most.

When I met with Monmouthshire County Council, I was very impressed by the detailed understanding that they had of where the flooding had taken place, where help was most needed, and the efforts that they were making to make sure that those who needed the help the most would be prioritised. Our judgment has been that that is a preferable way of making sure that help is effective, rather than a blanket scheme that is applied so that people get the standard amount of help and it has no relation to the amount of help they may actually need.

Llywydd, the Welsh Government’s budget approach reflects the influence of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and the work of the Welsh spending review. This ensures funding decisions maximise value, address long-term challenges and actively take into account the cross-departmental impacts of spending decisions within individual portfolios.

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. Public bus transport impacts on access to health, education, employment and leisure, and buses are a vital social service as well. We've just delivered the Bus Services (Wales) Bill to enable local bus services that are safe, integrated, sustainable and efficient. We have good services across north Wales provided by the TrawsCymru network, primarily funded by the Welsh Government, including the T8, an invaluable service from Corwen to Chester through the rural villages of Clwyd and Mold. But, unfortunately, the service is currently at risk due to funding pressures, depending on the budget, and some areas might no longer be served by a bus. Will you work with the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales to ensure the viability of the T8 service as we look to deliver the roll-out of franchising across north Wales? Thank you.

I thank Carolyn Thomas for that. Maybe I could just respond briefly to the general point that she makes, because although Government is inevitably divided into areas of responsibility, the overlapping impact of those is absolutely real. We talk a lot about how good housing is the foundation for young people in education, for the health of the people who live there, and the point that the Member makes about public transport is another very good example of that interconnected nature. 

I know that Transport for Wales is currently considering different options for the ongoing provision of the T8 service. I know that because the Cabinet Secretary raises with me, and has throughout the budget process, the importance he attaches to investment in bus services in the context of the bus Bill. As we make our way to the very final decisions for next year's budget, I'm happy to talk with him again, because I know that he is well aware of the T8 service and its value to the local community.

I thank Paul Davies, Llywydd, for that. The impact of the UK autumn budget will be felt throughout Pembrokeshire in its reductions in child poverty, increases in state pensions, improvements to the minimum wage and the national living wage. A continued commitment in that budget to renewable energy investment is also of key importance to Pembrokeshire people.

Cabinet Secretary, in the Welsh Government's response to the UK Government's autumn budget, you referred to a number of investments made to Wales, such as the remediation of brownfield land at Port Talbot and investment in the semiconductor cluster in south Wales, for example. Your statement also said that £547 million is being returned to the Welsh Government to deliver a new local growth fund programme. Cabinet Secretary, the local growth fund could actually make a real difference in our local communities, and it's vital that Pembrokeshire is not left behind. Therefore, can you confirm that Pembrokeshire will receive its fair share of funding from the local growth fund? Can you tell us a bit more about the local growth fund and how it will be allocated so that all parts of Wales will benefit from this fund?

I thank Paul Davies for that. I agree with him that all parts of Wales will want to benefit from that returned investment—an investment that is now, as it should have been all along, in the hands of this Senedd to determine. I know that my colleague Rebecca Evans is working very hard with local government interests and others to ensure a transition between current arrangements and the arrangements we will want to put in place in Wales in the future. That is quite a challenging pathway, because many local authorities have existing commitments that they will want to complete. In the longer term, the programme and prospectus that the Welsh Government sees for the local growth fund is that it will have a regional as well as a local impact, and that it will involve a wider set of partners that have been around the table in the programme that is to be replaced, making sure that we have local business interests, universities, local government and others to ensure that that significant investment, over £0.5 billion-worth of investment, is put to good use for the people of Pembrokeshire and in all other parts of Wales.

Diolch, Mark. Over £54 million has been invested in this Senedd term alone via the Nature Networks fund to restore and connect habitats and protect threatened species so wildlife thrives for future generations. The environment Bill will also provide a framework to set ambitious targets, including reducing the risk of extinction of native species.

As you and I have previously discussed, species modelling predicts that curlew will be functionally extinct in Wales by 2033, unless drastic action is taken at the scale required in order to save curlew from extinction in Wales and generate the multiple multispecies benefits this would deliver. Your written statement today on the publication of the universal layer guidance for the sustainable farming scheme states you intend to provide further information on the first phase of your optional and collaborative offer for 2026 in the spring, and will continue to evolve and strengthen this scheme throughout the transition period. However, the launch of the universal layer of the SFS alone will not be enough to restore nature and save threatened species such as curlew. You say that this will be the role of the upper tiers of the scheme. Given the urgent need for action to save curlew and many other threatened habitats and species, when will the upper tiers of the scheme therefore be available, and what contribution will they make to helping farmers to restore nature in Wales?

Mark, thank you very much indeed, and thanks for your continued advocacy for the curlew, but also other Members in the Senedd who’ve been advocating for species in their role as species champions as well. We do have real potential within the SFS. My thanks, Mark, for flagging the potential of the optional and collaborative layers, because I’ve made repeatedly clear that this is where the business analysis makes clear that the greatest gains can be made for nature and biodiversity and climate resilience. On that basis, I think there is significant scope here as we bring forward, not only for next May at the introduction of the SFS, but as we further then develop schemes within the optional and collaborative layer to take forward in future years.

It's worth saying that we are investing at the moment £2 million in projects, as you know, through the Nature Networks fund to drive forward curlew recovery. The Wales action plan for the recovery of curlews remains a Government-supported plan as well, and we’re looking forward to the outputs of the review from 2025. I‘ve visited some of these myself, but you are absolutely right, and I’m sure you will talk to other Members as well within the Conservative group about the real potential within the optional and collaborative layers of the SFS for having a joined-up approach that can not only lead to the restoration of curlew numbers but also to other species as well. [Interruption.] The upper tiers, yes.

Thank you, Mick. Our aim is to prevent litter occurring in the first place, and to ensure everyone takes their own responsibility as well for disposing their waste properly. By funding Keep Wales Tidy we're providing direct support to communities, and our legislation is shifting the supply chain towards more easily recyclable or reusable products as well.

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. There are two blights that are affecting our communities throughout Wales and affect us across all political parties. You will be aware that the cross-party group on fly-tipping and littering has made a number of recommendations for not only legislative change, but greater enforcement, and also other measures to be implemented. This will obviously be a matter to carry forward into the next Senedd. On Thursday, 29 January at the Pierhead, the cross-party group is actually going to be having a briefing for all candidates for the Senedd across all political parties, the objective being that this is one area where I think there is complete political unity on the need for change under the things that can be done. I wonder if you could just let me have your views, firstly, on further steps that need to be taken, and, secondly, if you would obviously consider attending that event, because I think unity and engagement, if we are to resolve this problem across Wales and the criminality involved in it, is going to be required in order to do what I think the people of Wales want us to achieve for their communities.

Indeed Mick, and my thanks to you in your role as chair but also to all the members of the cross-party group, because you are bringing a very welcome focus to this area, but also bringing forward some really actionable ideas. They are multifaceted as well; they go from sentencing down to very localised individual actions. We're watching that with great interest and we're keen to keep engaging with the cross-party group as we take our ideas forward as well. If I can make it to that event, I certainly will. I will look at my diary, but if not, I will make sure that I've got officials there as well.

To say as well, we are not standing still on this. What we can do also, in addition to the ideas being brought forward by the cross-party group, is things like the extended producer responsibility approach, where we put that polluter-pays responsibility back up the supply chain to make sure that we reduce the amount of waste being produced at source there. Then also, where there is waste being produced, the funds come down to local authorities so that they can deal with the litter problem. If we can take forward our proposals on the deposit-return scheme, then that also provides us with an opportunity as well. So, we're definitely not standing still.

But, yes, Mick, please keep with your group focusing on this issue, because I agree with you. I think it's one of those areas where there is broad cross-party support to deal with this pernicious issue of litter and fly-tipping within our local communities.

We are blessed across Wales to have many wonderful places to visit. In Monmouthshire, as you will know very well, we have the Monmouthshire and Brecon canal, the Sugar Loaf, Keeper's Pond, numerous cycle routes and other spots that attract visitors and locals alike from all over Wales. Unfortunately, most of these routes, certainly cycle routes, are plagued with litter, often full of it. The car parks for our mountains and the likes of Keeper's Pond car park—constantly we have reports of waste and litter and we all know what happens with canals, with trolleys and different things getting in them.

Cabinet Secretary, we have all worked hard to save assets, and you certainly have as well, certainly like the Mon and Brecon canal. We now need to ensure that these assets are looked after. Now, while individuals must take responsibility for their actions, how can the Welsh Government work with local authorities and all other agencies to keep these areas tidy and, importantly, ensure that littering regulations are properly enforced?

Thank you, Peter. I think this shows once again that there is good cross-party support and there is no monopoly here on good ideas. I think some of the ideas coming forward from individual Members, from the cross-party group, are worth considering as we try and build that toolkit of ways that we deal with it. But we have to start from the point of individual responsibility, okay. Let's make it clear from the Senedd, as we repeatedly do, that people have to take responsibility for their own actions. There should not be littering and there should not be fly-tipping, including in beautiful places like the Mon and Brec canal. This is a huge community asset. We were delighted to be able to convene that group to look at how we could make sure that there is water in the canal. I made the somewhat obvious but, I think, important point when we brought forward the up to £400,000 a year, alongside the Canal and River Trust themselves, to make sure that there is water in the canal. The canal is nothing without the water, but it's also the banks, the pathways, the biodiversity and the beautiful environment.

But we will certainly continue to work not only with local authorities directly on this—including, by the way, through the EPR that I mentioned in my response to Mick Antoniw, and in taking forward the DRS as well—but also in the funding of things like Keep Wales Tidy, which we have stood steadfastly by, because they then work with those local groups in the local communities, empowering others to go out and deal with the issues of litter. First and foremost, let us just remind all of our constituents: don't litter. It's irresponsible. It's an absolutely pernicious activity to do. For goodness sake, let us take pride in our own local environment.

Diolch, Llywydd. Deputy First Minister, you'll be aware that I've previously pressed you on whether you agree with the UK Climate Change Committee's recommendation to reduce livestock numbers in order to meet climate targets. To date, I've not had a clear answer. So, in the spirit of Christmas, Deputy First Minister, will you give a clear and unambiguous answer today? Do you agree with the UK Climate Change Committee's call to de-stock Welsh agriculture? 

So, in the spirit of Christmas, merry Christmas in advance to you as well, Sam. We recognise there has been a declining trend in domestic beef and sheep populations across the UK over the last 20 years. You will be aware of this. Whilst beef and sheep population numbers have declined, production has actually remained stable since 2008. Now, livestock numbers, as you know, are driven not by Government, but actually by the market. They can be attributed to a wide variety of factors, including changes to agricultural support schemes, wider economic policy, efficiency gains and incomes from beef and sheep farms remaining relatively low compared to other farm sectors. The Welsh Government agriculture and horticulture June survey was released on 9 December. Headline figures show a slight increase in the total number of sheep and lambs in Wales, whilst there was a small fall in the total number of cattle and calves in Wales—no significant changes from 2024. What I would say to you, Sam, is there is nothing within our sustainable farming scheme that says that the numbers of livestock will be driven down. This actually gives the ability and the autonomy to Welsh farmers to grow grass and forage and make the most of the land that we have.

Well, that was a very long-winded answer to not give an answer. But we do know where you stand, Deputy First Minister, and we know where your Labour colleagues stand, and we know where Plaid Cymru stands and the Liberal Democrats stand, because all of you voted in favour of the climate change carbon budget regulations just two weeks ago. Those regulations explicitly support the UK Climate Change Committee's fourth carbon budget, which clearly states that achieving net zero by 2050, quote,

'requires reductions in livestock numbers.'

You supported that, they supported that, the Liberals, Plaid, all of you supported that. So, why does the Welsh Government want Welsh livestock farmers, producers of some of the highest quality, most traceable and sustainable food in the world, to produce less?

It seems you're labouring under some misapprehension here, Sam, because the pathway set out by the Climate Change Committee is not Welsh Government policy. The ambition and the target is not only Welsh Government policy, but this Senedd's desired intent as well. And that's because this Senedd has voted, Sam, not to walk away from our climate change ambitions, unlike the Conservative Party, who are now washing their hands of it and seem to be saying, 'Well, this is all too difficult.' Well, I'm sorry, but some of the predecessors in the Conservative Party were much more resolute in sticking to the plate. So, it's for us to determine, Sam, through the support through the SFS, through what we do with Hybu Cig Cymru, through what we do with investment in the red meat and livestock sector, through our investment in good, green pastureland, to make sure that we sustain that sector and also have the throughput that we need as well. But it is noticeable that the Conservatives—and thank you for reminding us—voted against that climate change budget. I mean, that's a notable moment in time, I have to say, when you have turned 180 degrees and you are washing your hands now of the need to give farmers the ability to resist the ravages of climate change.

Voting records never lie, and our voting record voted against the sustainable farming scheme, it voted against the climate change regulations, because we voted against the UK Climate Change Committee's recommendations to de-stock. We do not believe that Welsh agriculture needs to lose livestock numbers to continue to be the very best in the world. Let's also remember that there are expectations for livestock numbers to be cut within the sustainable farming scheme. Your own analysis says so. The scheme is due to start in only two weeks' time, and only today we've had further details on the universal tiers be published. This isn't last-minute Christmas shopping by the Government, it's last-minute decision making that farmers are expected to adapt to. So, Deputy First Minister, are you genuinely confident that, from 1 January, two weeks' time, everything will be fully in place, from RPW systems, data mapping, guidance, administration, everything will be ready for those farmers who wish to sign up to the SFS? And how many farmers do you expect to sign up to the SFS?

'Yes' is the answer to that. All the work we've done over the last 12 to 18 months—in partnership, I have to say, with all those stakeholders, including the farming unions, the TFA, the environmental NGOs, whatever—plus all the work of my officials, has made sure that we are ready to go. But I recognise that the Conservatives have done everything in their power to try and undermine this way forward, a way forward that is good for the vitality of Welsh farming and gives them certainty and security going forward. All the Conservatives can do, time after time again, is try and undermine this position, and put forward—I'm trying to remember the right initials now—the FSF instead of the SFS—[Interruption.] It is ludicrous, Sam; it is ludicrous. So, everything will be in place.

And simply to say, just to counter once again, if I haven't said it often enough, when you say, within the sustainable farming scheme, that it's actually going to lead to livestock numbers reduction, can I repeat once again, for crystal clarity, before we get to the Christmas break: it is modelling and scenarios? What the SFS does is it puts in the power of farmers, with the lush green pastureland that we have, which lends itself to good rearing and good soil health and good production of red meat—. It is their ability then to actually stock according to what they think is appropriate. So, you are, let me say—how do I say this charitably, in the run-up to Christmas—peddling misinformation around the SFS, and trying to undermine it. It will be ready for delivery, and we will continue to work with all of the stakeholders to bring this forward.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llyr. Thank you very much as well for the seasonal greetings; I reciprocate with that as well.

We've discussed this with the farming unions in the past week, two weeks, specifically with this on the agenda as we met. As you rightly point out, it is a real concern. Now, Welsh Government is committed to supporting the Welsh dairy industry to ensure it has a strong future. I'm pleased that the milk regulations will now be in place to give more certainty for business purchases and qualifying sellers in the milk sector. But these are worrying times at the moment.

Now, I'm pleased to note that the UK Government are listening to the concerns raised regarding the tiered pricing provisions within the regulations to secure more certainty for both business purchases and the qualifying sellers in the milk sector. Now, we haven't looked yet at using powers within the Agriculture (Wales) Act, but that has been raised with me by the unions, as to whether and when that might be an option to look at. So, we haven't discounted it, but we haven't thought it right at this moment to actually use it. But we're keen to work with the UK Government as well. We're also very keen to work with the supply chain and speak directly to them. I'm going to meet representatives from the Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board as well to discuss falling milk prices very early in January as well. We need to keep a very close eye on this and make sure that we can give that certainty to our dairy producers that they can get through this and get to, hopefully, when the prices rise again.

Thank you for that response. I'm sure you'll also be aware that alarming amounts of meat and dairy products are now being illegally imported to Great Britain, for both personal consumption and sale. You'll be aware, I'm sure, of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee's report on this, which highlighted poor enforcement of personal import rules at the border and the exploitation of this vulnerability by smugglers, bringing in significant volumes of meat with relative impunity, and bringing with it, of course, a threat of importing animal diseases, such as, heaven forbid, foot and mouth disease, but also the risk of harm to human health, clearly, as well.

Now, the UK Government of course has said in its response that many of the committee's core recommendations to tackle the issue will only be considered once the sanitary and phytosanitary negotiations with the EU have been concluded and implemented. Now, that's, effectively, putting real action off until 2027 at the earliest. So, can I ask what discussions have you had with the UK Government to urge them to ramp up action on this front now, sooner rather than later, and what role is the Welsh Government playing to protect both animal and human health in the face of this risk?

Llyr, thank you very much for raising this really important issue. I can confirm to you that we have raised in inter-ministerial group meetings, quad meetings between the four nations, on this very issue, and we're not satisfied simply to wait until when the SPS agreement—. Even though that seems to be progressing well, there's still time to go on that. We need, actually, to be working together right here, right now, on those risks to biosecurity, but also food being brought in that could, indeed, have real challenges for our wider food industry. So, we have been not only articulating those views within the IMG, but we are working now with colleagues in Scotland, Northern Ireland and elsewhere to make sure that we have a co-ordinated approach in things such as spot checks—increasing the spot checks—on the different points of entry around the country to make sure that we can do everything in this transition period, not simply waiting for when we have the SPS in place.

I know you're aware of the considerable distress that continues to engulf our farming communities as a result of the UK Government's short-sighted changes to inheritance tax rules, which, obviously, are due to take effect next April. Now, I still believe strongly that the best course of action would be to completely reverse the policy, but at this stage, at least, that doesn't look as likely as some of us would wish. But it doesn't mean that we give up, does it? And it doesn't mean either that options to refine and improve what is currently an incredibly blunt policy instrument shouldn't be explored in earnest over the time that we have left to do so. And there are alternatives, which I've highlighted to you before: the clawback approach, of course, ensuring that genuine farm succession isn't penalised, while more effectively targeting inheritance tax loopholes, is one option. The second is to introduce a minimum share rule, which is something that the Centre for the Analysis of Taxation has highlighted as being less damaging when it comes to our family farms here in Wales.

Now, you've spoken a lot about the improvements in intergovernmental relations in your earlier answers today and previously. Well, maybe now's the time to show that that can deliver positive results for Wales. So, will you consider putting Wales forward to the UK Government as somewhere they can pilot or trial some of these alternative approaches instead of introducing what is currently being proposed, something that would not only be less damaging to farms and businesses here in Wales, but also ultimately could well raise more money for the Treasury?

So, I think the challenge here is that—. We've repeatedly raised the need to make sure that we protect the sustainability of our characteristic Welsh farming here in Wales, and we've done it in every instance we can, both in writing and face-to-face with DEFRA Ministers. But, ultimately, of course, this is a decision—I hate to state the, you know, blindingly obvious here—for UK Treasury as well. But we've repeatedly urged the UK Government to engage with ideas out there in the Welsh farming unions about practical alternatives. And I do, by the way, actually welcome the announcement that was made in the autumn budget that, from 6 April 2026, the £1 million allowance for agricultural and business property relief will be transferable between spouses and civil partners, even if the deceased spouse or civil partner passed away before that date.

But I think the question of whether there would be a concession to allow any part of the UK to actually proceed in a different way, when it's a Treasury-based decision, I think is unlikely, to be quite frank with you. But, meanwhile, what we will continue to do is support farmers through our own initiatives that we have devolved competence in, and that includes, through Farming Connect, the support that's available there, including inheritance tax implications, but also succession review, but also subsidised business and legal advice as well. So, in all of our devolved powers, we'll do everything that we can.

I note that when we talk about this, often the focus is on upland areas. But, as you know, most of the region that I represent, South Wales Central, comprises heavily populated urban environments. The WWF's recently published report, 'Urban Nature Based Solutions', for flood risk mitigation shows that such solutions can also be used in urban areas. So, can I therefore ask how you are progressing this work? When you look at areas that I represent, like Pontypridd, Taff's Well and so on, how can we ensure that we're also investing in those kinds of solutions, not just the traditional defences model?

You are absolutely right, and we are starting to see initiatives come forward now in the urban settings as well, and it's not just to do with SuDS and SABs, but wider initiatives. In fact, I was at one of Dŵr Cymru's first-funded use of natural flood management in a town environment only very recently. But we need to do more on this. I think we're in the foothills, in some ways. So, it isn't just an upland catchment, as important as that is, I have to say, and there's an immense amount of scope we can do, not just through the £2 million investment we're doing, but actually through what we can do in the, as was mentioned earlier, things like the collaborative part of the sustainable farming scheme as well, to bring farmers together in the uplands, but equally within urban environments as well, so that we use natural processes in order to alleviate flood risk. So, there is more to do, but we are leading the way in some ways. We've had people come here to Cardiff to actually see work that we're doing here, which is leading the way. But, yes, we do have more to do, and we have to focus on not just the upland upstream interventions, but down in the towns as well.

Despite technical advice note 15's aim to restrict development on floodplains, a significant policy contradiction has emerged in Wales. The Welsh Government's repeated failure to meet housing targets places substantial pressure on local authorities like Bridgend and Swansea to approve developments on marginal or flood-prone land. Up the road in Penyborfa, Powys, planning permission was recently given for 29 homes on flood-prone land by the local council, despite significant community and environmental concerns. The Welsh Government chose not to intervene on the planning decision. This short-term emphasis on housing delivery is undermining sustainable flood resilience in Bridgend and Porthcawl, reducing space for nature-based solutions such as floodplain reconnections and wetland creation. What measure is the Welsh Government implementing to balance house building with support for local authorities in protecting floodplains and promoting nature-based flood management?

Thank you, Altaf, and I refer to my earlier answer in terms of promoting flood-risk management schemes that are based on nature within urban areas. But you were right in saying that if there is housing development—and we have very high and ambitious housing targets, which we are striving and succeeding, I have to say, particularly in terms of social and affordable housing, to meet there—if these are within areas that are at flood risk, there is clear policy guidance, then, on the mitigations that are needed to enable any development to go forward. It is right that local authorities are in the prime position to actually make these decisions, but with advice from NRW and from other agencies as well, to make sure that they are designed in the right way, in the right place, with sufficient mitigations against the risk of flooding. But, as I said to Heledd earlier, I think it's right as well that we—as you said, actually—enable enough space within these developments, so that we can actually enable natural flood-risk approaches to be built into these schemes as well.

Global warming is affecting the weather and we're now having regular heavy rain and flooding. We cannot stop the rain; what we can do is reduce the volume of water downstream. Trees play a crucial role in reducing flooding through various natural processes that manage water flow and improve soil absorption. Trees act as a natural umbrella, accepting rainfall with their canopies. This slows down the rain before it hits the ground, allowing for gradual absorption rather than immediate run-off. Tree roots create channels in the soil that allow water to penetrate deeper and more quickly. This reduces surface run-off and increases water storage in the soil. By anchoring the soil, trees prevent erosion and landslide, which can lead to increased run-off. Their presence helps to slow down water flow across the landscape, mitigating flash floods during heavy rains. What are the Government's plans to increase tree coverage to reduce flooding as we see the effect of global warming?

Mike, thank you for raising this and for regularly championing the role of tree planting within flood risk alleviation. Now, we do have funding priorities. We have a dedicated natural flood management grant and woodland creation grants that support woodland creation as a key measure to slow down run-off and to store water within catchments, as you describe. There's also an integrated approach with wider policies, such as encouraging riparian planting—planting alongside rivers—floodplain woodlands and buffer strips to reduce flood peaks. And wider nature-based solutions promote tree planting alongside other natural flood management interventions. So, within the sustainable farming scheme, for example, there's an ambition of planting 17,000 hectares by 2030 to support active farmers in creating woodland as well. So, there's much we can do in this area, Mike, and we're lining up the funding and the incentives to do it.

Diolch, Julie. The Welsh Government supports a number of initiatives to improve access to nature. This includes the well supported Local Places for Nature, the Community Land Advisory Service and the access improvement grant. We are committed to creating green spaces that enhance our health and well-being and provide those places that the people of Wales can really enjoy.

In September, I met with my constituent who lives half of the year on a canal boat, and we had a wonderful journey along the Mon and Brec Canal, which has already been mentioned here this afternoon. And I'm absolutely delighted that the Welsh Government has committed up to £400,000 a year to maintain the water supply to the canal, because I saw the industry that was dependent on it in terms of the river trips, and was so impressed by the beauty of the area, and I really commend the Welsh Government for making this decision. So, how will the Welsh Government ensure that people will continue to have access to fantastic spots like this canal?

Well, thank you very much for that. I'm pleased that this is being raised on the floor today because it was a signal moment that the Welsh Government—alongside the Canal and River Trust—was able to step up and actually commit to sustaining that canal network with up to £400,000 a year funding over the next few years, but also with the investment—the capital money—that we'd put in last year to make sure that water was still flowing into the canal, because the canal, yes, is about the boating and the businesses and everything else, and it's also about the place that people go to enjoy the natural environment as well—walking, cycling along the towpath, paddling along the canal as well, which I've done myself on several occasions.

But it's bigger than that. So, during the year 2025-26, we'll be providing £19 million for the Local Places for Nature programme. And that means that we get many, many more of those green spaces for communities that we see now in every constituency. I mean, this is really putting people at the heart of that access to green spaces in their communities and the spaces that they love—and the ones that they want to turn around into beautiful spaces to enjoy. The Local Places for Nature programme now has delivered over 3,000 pollinator sites, over 100 food growing sites, over 1,000 community orchards and 110 therapeutic gardens. So, there's much more we can do. Our allotment support grants, the Green Flag Awards, which are promoting the enjoyment and awareness of those green spaces as well, and the investment in the Sustainable Landscapes, Sustainable Places programme as well. So, in many, many ways, this Government is actually committing, in words and in actions and in funds, to promoting access for everyone to green spaces in their local neighbourhoods, as well as along the canal.

Cabinet Secretary, access to open and green spaces is very important—I see you've disappeared behind the lectern—especially to do with the mental health agenda and the obesity agenda. But what we do see is that a lot of our rights-of-way network is currently not accessible for many people. It's either overgrown or the paths are simply not available for people to walk on. So, I'd just like to know what work the Welsh Government is doing to make sure that we can open up the rights-of-way network so we can get those people out of their homes, out of their chairs and enjoying our open countryside across Wales.

James, thank you. It's a really important point. The rights-of-way network is so critically important because, for many people, it's the one where they walk out of their own homes and then access the wider areas, before they get up on the hills and so on and so forth. So, during 2025-27, we're funding a two-year capital access improvement grant totalling £4 million to local authorities and to national park authorities, indeed, that have public rights of way. So, it will enable those authorities to improve the recreational access to green and blue spaces, both for the access principle but also, as you say, for mental and physical health and well-being as well there. But, just to say as well, in the sustainable farming scheme, there's a capital project that also includes improving accessibility and the visitor experience. So, there are different ways of improving that as well. But, certainly, in terms of rights of way, our access improvement grant, totalling £4 million, is going to be a substantial investment in our basic rights of way.

Thank you, Janet. We work with Natural Resources Wales through the emerging threats to water Wales group to assess risks and potential harms from plastics and microplastics in rivers. This partnership drives research, it monitors innovation and evidence-based policy development to assess and reduce plastic pollution in rivers, safeguarding ecosystems, biodiversity and public health right across Wales.

Thank you. I attended a cross-party group the other day with my colleague Delyth, over there, and we were quite disturbed, really, to realise that there is no actual surveying of the water in rivers as there is the sea and things. Now, six of the 20 most polluted rivers in the UK are in Wales. Microplastics were found in 50 per cent of invertebrate samples. Microplastics were found in a wide range of fish organs, from gills to the brain. But it is not just our rivers where we see plastic pollution. There are also instances of plastic discs from water treatment facilities leaking into our seas and rivers. Now, whilst NRW, backed by the Welsh Government, has schemes that focus on farm pollution in rivers, this continues the narrative of the agricultural sector being seen as the main culprit, and by no means are our farmers to blame on this. We see far too much pollution from our water companies. However, NRW, I understand, does not have a routine monitoring programme to measure plastic or microplastics actually in the water in the rivers, rather than the fish and the invertebrates. So, given that this is a really important issue now, will you work with NRW to bring in these routine surveys? Diolch.

Janet, thank you for that. It is a really important issue, and I think there is a way forward on this. So, you are right in saying that at present there is limited data to quantify the contribution of microplastics from each potential source, and the current evidence indicates that some microplastics, notably those found in drinking water, may come from treatment and distribution systems for tap water and/or bottling of bottled water. But, currently, as you point out, there is no regulatory requirement to monitor microplastics in freshwater and drinking water. Therefore, NRW do not routinely monitor for plastics in water. However, the Welsh Government and NRW jointly convened an emerging threats to water quality working group to look at this very issue, to look at microplastics as part of the group's remit in addition to other chemical threats, because it is not the only one.

So, the most recent UK report on microplastics in drinking water was published by the UK water industry research group in 2019, and they found that more than 99.9 per cent of microplastics were removed from drinking water and waste water through the water company treatment processes. Nevertheless, we recognise that more research is needed to understand the full impact of plastic pollution on human health and the environment. So, the work that we are now doing will support the appropriate regulatory standards and monitoring requirements, going forward. So, more work to be done, but we are getting on with it.

I'm really glad that Janet has raised this issue, and it was a great event that we were at recently. Plastics are found everywhere in our rivers, particularly from car tyres, clothing and paint. Animals can mistake those plastics for food. Birds try to eat plastic packaging, and fish can ingest microplastics. Professor Steve Ormerod's research has found that microplastics are ingested by one in every two insects in the Taf, the Usk and the Wye rivers. Chicks can be fed 8,000 fragments of microplastic before fledging. Songbirds and those living near riverbanks eat hundreds of pieces of plastic a day, mainly from those insects. Research that was sent to me by the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds shows dippers ingest around 200 particles of plastic every day. Now, clearly, this plastic litter is infecting our wild world. What can be done to raise awareness of these alarming statistics, please, to start to stem that tide? Young people, in particular, are looking to us for answers.

Yes, and in fact I agree. Young people, in fact, are some of the most fantastic advocates now of the need to tackle plastic pollution. But there's much that can be done. And, in fact, I've got to say, credit to devolution, it's in this place, in this amphitheatre of democracy, that we've led the way on this, whether it's been through the plastic bags levy many years ago, whether it's through the legislation we took through on single-use plastic products. I have to say as well that it's the investment that we're putting in to pioneering schemes within the UK such as the recycled fisheries products as well, where we are, by the van load, gathering fishing nets and plastics from the fishing industry. There is much that we can do. And much of the motivation for this is coming from when we go out to schools, and eco councils and so on, and they tell us. I have schools write to me in their dozens, saying, 'Will you, please, do more on this?' So we're keen to do it.

It also ties into, I have to say, what we do with our waste management and recycling and reuse of plastics, and where we can also go next with the circular economy, so we have less of it ending up in the environment, and more of it being reused for useful products that create jobs here in Wales. So, again, this is an area that we're leading in, but there's much to do. But young people, I have to say, are the ones who keep our feet to the fire on this.

Thank you very much to Janet Finch-Saunders for raising this important question. I listened carefully to your answer, and I think it's shocking that this isn't being measured at the moment and, from your answers, I think there isn't any plan to measure plastic pollution in rivers. Because, as Delyth Jewell has said, clearly plastics do pollute our rivers. It's very hard to set a target if you don't know what the current state of affairs is. As an analogy, if you are helping a friend to run a marathon in three months' time, you cannot plan for that effectively if you don't know how far they can run right now. So, bearing in mind the environmental targets, how can we possibly do that and set targets without monitoring at the moment? Are you worried that this isn't possible without current or future monitoring? Diolch yn fawr.

So, Rhys, first of all, thanks for championing this repeatedly here within the Senedd. But just to counter what you're saying, it's not simply that there isn't monitoring, there's a lack of data on the analysis of what the impact of microplastics is within the various systems that we have. So, that's one of the areas that we're working on. We need to actually ascertain that in order to know what the scale of the issue is, alongside, by the way, other pollutants within the environment that are being looked at as well, and then decide what measures we can take.

So, colleagues in the UK Government, in DEFRA, are currently working with the Environment Agency and the water industry to establish those methods to detect, to characterise and to quantify microplastics entering waste water treatment works, and to evaluate the efficiency of treatment processes for the removal from domestic waste waters. And my officials are working with DEFRA colleagues to understand the outcomes from that research.

But I referred in my earlier answer to the additional work that's being done to try and quantify the extent of the threat of microplastics as well. We need to be able to evaluate that, and then decide how we deal with it. It's not the only pollutant out there, but it's very important that we focus on this and we gather the data.

The examiner's report for the Alaw Môn project clearly states that there is a fundamental policy conflict because it contains so much BMV land. But this Government has given it the go-ahead regardless. There are other ways of doing solar, of course, on rooftops, and, yes, on smaller packets of less productive agricultural land. But is the Cabinet Secretary ready today to be honest and say that his Government no longer cares about protecting productive BMV land, or, if that's not the case, how on earth can he justify permission being given for the Alaw Môn project?

Diolch, Rhun. Well, first of all, you'll understand that I'm not able to comment on specific cases and, as I understand it, the Alaw Môn decision, Llywydd, is facing judicial review, so you wouldn't expect me or anybody else to comment on the specifics of the Alaw Môn decision.

However, just to say, we have the highest level of protection for high-quality agricultural land here in Wales in the UK, and let me explain a little bit more. We do have indeed—you are right to point out—ambitious targets for renewable energy, requiring a diverse range of generation types, but each case must be taken on its merits, and it has to balance the agricultural interest against other considerations. Now, the best and most versatile classification of land is not a ban on the use of land. The planning system cannot do that. It does, however, set a very high bar, and as I say, we've got the highest level of protection for high-quality agricultural land in the UK. So, we believe the existing measures are strong. They're the strongest in the UK. It's supported, by the way, by the recent Soil Security paper in 2022, describing Wales as, and I quote, set 'apart from its neighbours' and where,

'the primacy of ALC and BMV land has been maintained'.

That's a quote directly from them. Now, my officials routinely—. Just to make clear from my department, my officials routinely make representations in national interest cases, to ensure our best and most versatile agricultural land is given significant weight in the planning process. But, as I say, I'm not able to comment on specific cases.

Diolch, Jenny. Growing in Wales is promoted through commitments in the community food strategy, better access for small-scale horticulture to the upcoming sustainable farming scheme, and through initiatives such as the Welsh Veg in Schools programme. Comprehensive ongoing support includes Farming Connect and the horticulture cluster, together with dedicated capital grant schemes.

Thank you. All those streams of work are very important, and I acknowledge a lot of the progress that's been made, both by Castell Howell in south Wales and the north Wales education consortium, to do good work on procuring more Welsh ingredients for school meals. But growing 10 tonnes of carrots in Carmarthenshire isn't going to feed all our primary school pupils. The work done by Lantra on behalf of Farming Connect in the last 12 months to increase horticultural production has been excellent, but eight full-time equivalent staff doesn't even meet the demand, never mind proactively promote diversification into horticulture under the sustainable farming scheme.

Our biggest horticulturalist, Puffin Produce, could easily double its output if local authorities were being clearer about what they needed from local growers. I'm concerned that the Farming Connect contract for the next three years is being procured behind closed doors, so stakeholders are unable to see how much resource is targeting strengthening the foundational economy to produce sustainable fruit and veg in Wales, rather than on unpredictable foreign imports. It's both a food security and a sustainability issue. So, what targets have you set for Farming Connect to massively expand Welsh fruit and veg production?

Jenny, where I'd absolutely agree with you is on the importance of not only the procurement policy, but also Farming Connect in taking forward the many ways in which we're supporting growing the fruit and veg sector here in Wales, and Farming Connect is key to this. It has now supported 447 businesses in the edible horticulture sector who are currently registered with the programme. That's significant, from where we were a few years ago. Since April 2023, the programme has successfully delivered 335 fully funded one-to-one horticultural business support sessions to Welsh growers. And that is tailored support, by the way, in key areas such as crop planning, diversification, integrated pest management and much more. And there have been 841 training courses on a range of events specifically within this edible horticulture sector delivered through Farming Connect.

The Farming Connect procurement process is, as you mentioned, ongoing and we expect to announce the successful supplier in the new year. We want to build on the success we have had. We want to keep on growing this sector substantially. It'll continue, that process, to uphold our commitment to supporting all of the various sectors, including edible horticulture, as they transition forward to the sustainable farming scheme. It will, of course, also be aligned with the sustainable land management framework as we go forward as well.

So, we're committed to this, Jenny, in taking this forward. I think we've come a long way over the last couple of years, but we do agree with you that we've got a lot further to go. So, lining up that alongside the horticultural grant support and the range of other support that we have, including working with distributors like Harlech and through the Welsh Veg in Schools programme, we will keep on pushing at all of the areas to grow and grow our edible horticulture sector. 

Minister, successive storms have brought heavy rainfall to already saturated river catchments, with river systems unable to recover between events. Now, in addition, we see that unstable trees and accumulated debris have entered watercourses and become lodged, resulting in blockage. This debris acts as a dam, contributing to upstream flooding and unnecessary damage to properties. So, in light of these events, will you work with NRW to commit to a more preventative programme of river maintenance to avoid unnecessary and repeated flooding?

You raise a very good point, because the sheer frequency now with which we're having deluges of rain—we can see it starting again here today—means that our front-line agencies are constantly being stretched to respond. Even in the 18 months or more that I've been in post, we are having more of these, not simply heavy precipitation but actually storm incidents, being reported this year than last year, more last year than the year before. Something significant is happening. I simply say to those who would deny that there is something going on with the climate: something is happening here. And that means that there is a big stretch. 

Part of our response to that needs not only to be the massive investment that we are doing in flood and coastal protection, and so on—including those things that are often unseen, by the way, which are things such as culvert monitoring, the cleaning of culverts, and so on. That is vitally important as well, and we work with local authorities on that basis. So, it's not only with NRW, it's actually with local authorities who are the flood risk authorities within their own areas. So, yes, I can absolutely commit. And if you want to contact me with detail of particular rivers or river catchments in your area, I'm more than happy to ask my officials to explore that. But we need to maintain our flood resilience, not just keep on investing more and more. We need to maintain what it is when we're faced with more frequent heavy precipitation week after week after week.

Diolch yn fawr, Adam Price. Recent reports in the media on potential future changes in England and Wales are unconfirmed, but we continue to engage with the UK Government policing Minister, who will be attending the policing partnership board for Wales, which I chair, tomorrow.

These changes that have been reported across several media, and presumably on the basis of a briefing, would represent the biggest upheaval and reform of police forces since the 1960s. I'm not clear—maybe if the Cabinet Secretary could help us in this regard—if there have been any discussions to date in relation to the proposal to create integrated forces and the creation, for example, of a single Welsh police force. When the announcements on police and crime commissioners were made, effectively, if I can paraphrase, you told us that you were told but you weren't consulted. Would you expect to be consulted before the White Paper is published on a proposal that is as significant as this?

On the principle, would you state whether, in your view—certainly, this is our position—no change should happen, a merger for example, without full Senedd scrutiny and a Welsh democratic mandate? Will you particularly call on the Home Secretary to rule out any cross-border structure that would involve, for example, a Welsh force being absorbed into an English megaforce, or indeed Welsh services being effectively operated from a national operations centre in England?

And finally, I think that we would accept that there are some arguments for structural reform—an all-Wales model could have benefits, as has been the case in Scotland—but governance is going to be critical. If an all-Wales force is being proposed, would you agree that the accountability of that national force would have to be national to the Senedd here, to the Welsh Government, through Welsh democratic structures? Will you ask the policing partnership board for Wales, which you chair, to take evidence, set out the options for Wales, and report back to the Senedd so that we can debate and decide the best way forward for Wales?

Diolch yn fawr, Adam. Thank you for that question. As I said, unconfirmed reports and speculation are unhelpful, so tomorrow it's really important that we will address this in the policing partnership board. I was really encouraged by the fact that when we had the announcement made by the Home Office to abolish police and crime commissioners, we raised this immediately to say that we need different governance arrangements for Wales. We need governance arrangements that actually reflect Wales, Welsh circumstances, the Wales partnership that we've built up over the years.

The policing partnership board for Wales, which I chair, meets every quarter. It's an excellent example of how we work together, all the police and crime commissioners, our chief constables and the Welsh Local Government Association—key partners. One of the interesting things about that announcement, about the police landscape reform, is that it has provided us with the opportunity to say that this gives us more opportunity to ensure that the policing partnership board can have a real place in Wales in terms of accountability. I share that view in terms of governance.

Also, we have received assurance from the Home Office that there are different governance arrangements between England and Wales, and they're committed to work with the Welsh Government and policing in Wales. I'm sure this will come up tomorrow in our policing partnership board. There will be plans for collaborative working and the upcoming White Paper that is being developed and, subsequently, will be published in the new year.

Cabinet Secretary, do you not agree that this is the perfect opportunity for a reset for you all to abandon your calls for devolving policing and justice to Wales? There is merit in having a single unified police force for England and Wales, if only to tackle dysfunctional forces like Gwent Police, who have allowed a culture of misogyny to persist amongst their officers and leaders. Cabinet Secretary, when you next discuss policing with the Home Secretary, will you be pushing for better policing for Wales, rather than Wales in charge of policing?

I actually think this provides the perfect opportunity to discuss the devolution of policing and justice to Wales. Let's go back to the fact that this was advocated not just by the Thomas commission, the largest ever examination of the justice system in Wales, but also, more recently, by the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, chaired by Rowan Williams and Laura McAllister. I was here in the days of the Silk commission, where your party also, with all the parties, agreed that we should devolve policing to Wales. So, I think this has given us the perfect opportunity to progress these discussions. Of course, this would be a phased approach. At present, we're focusing on the devolution of youth justice and probation, but the change of governance arrangements for policing is a natural opportunity, raised by this question this afternoon, to consider the role of the Welsh Government and the Senedd in terms of accountability for policing in Wales.

You mentioned the word 'partnership' in your responses to Adam Price, and you'll forgive us for feeling a little bit left out when the word 'partnership' hasn't really occurred when it comes to the Westminster announcements and what we know in Wales on this really important issue. This was something that was talked about in the media at the beginning of this week, and indeed was a surprise, certainly to me and presumably to others. Really, the mechanism through which this should come is the Senedd. The idea of partnership is something that we need raised really seriously between the Welsh Parliament and the UK Parliament. So, to echo what Adam has said there, I'd just like to hear a timetable for this process, how the Senedd will be involved in it.

Also, you've mentioned the devolution of youth justice and probation, and I disagree profoundly with my Conservative colleague. We need more devolved powers here, but that timetable is slipping as well. So, could we have a commitment from you for next year that there is going to be a clear statement on both this development and the timetable for the devolution of youth justice and probation, and also looking forward, so that we can feel confident that that work in partnership is happening? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. I can assure you that I do meet regularly with the UK Government Minister for Policing and Crime Prevention, Sarah Jones, and she is attending our policing partnership board for Wales. I'm very proud, as I've said, of the partnership board for Wales. It brings together all of those interests that are crucial to justice and the policing landscape in Wales.

I raised this issue in terms of the Welsh landscape in terms of policing, because, of course, there's been police landscape reform discussed since the new UK Government came into power last year. I wrote to Sarah Jones in November to say that they must recognise the unique Welsh landscape. It is a unique Welsh landscape that we've developed together. It's not devolved, but it's a unique Welsh landscape. I've urged that both sets of our officials should work together.

As I've mentioned, there's a White Paper being developed and it'll be published in the new year. I look forward to discussions emerging tomorrow. A change of governance arrangements, as I said, and I'll repeat, is a natural opportunity to consider the role not just of the Welsh Government but of the Senedd in terms of accountability for policing.

Of course, if there was any real partnership, Cabinet Secretary, you wouldn't have been placed in this invidious position this afternoon. This is the second time in two months where you've had to field questions from Members where this Parliament has been placed in a situation whereby it's discussing hearsay on one of the fundamental public services. This simply isn't good enough. Policing should be devolved to Wales in the same way as it's been described, as the Cabinet Secretary outlined, in the number of commissions and reports that have been published over many years, over decades, on this matter. It is time that the UK Government didn't simply recognise a distinct pattern in Wales—which clearly they don't, because if they did recognise that, you wouldn't be in this position—and actually bit the bullet and devolved policing. That needs to happen. It needs to happen as soon as possible. It needs to happen in a structured way and it needs to ensure that people in this Chamber and across this country can decide the sort of policing they want. I think when we do have that debate, we will want to see more local influence and more local control. We certainly don't want to see the  nationalisation of policing that's just been proposed by the Conservatives. We've never had a national police force in the United Kingdom. We don’t want one today. What we want is a devolved Welsh police force responsible to Welsh communities, and the sooner the better.

Thank you very much. I think that was a statement, rather than a question. But I think, actually, it has been helpful to have this question, and I thank Adam Price for raising it this afternoon, because it has enabled people to express their views across this Chamber. I will say that I was encouraged that the Home Office has recognised the different governance arrangements between England and Wales. They've seen all of the reports over the years—I won't repeat them all—that have called for the devolution of policing. They have committed to working with the Welsh Government and policing in Wales. It is important that we listen to the views not just in this Chamber but of all the relevant partners in Wales. This is about us influencing the best and most appropriate form of local policing governance and scrutiny in Wales. So, it has been helpful to air and share today, before my policing partnership board tomorrow, with the policing Minister.

I haven't quite finished yet. There are two more views to share. Mark Isherwood, then Rhys ab Owen.

Diolch, Llywydd. I was actually a member of the sub-committee of the Assembly's Social Justice and Regeneration Committee, which reviewed the structure of policing in 2005, when mergers were proposed then. We carried this out at the request of the then UK Home Secretary via your predecessor and colleague at the time, Edwina Hart.

Our report noted that criminal activity does not recognise national or regional boundaries and that cross-border partnerships must reflect operational reality. Our detailed scrutiny work on behalf of the UK Home Secretary considering the then proposed Welsh police merger led to police mergers being aborted across England and Wales.

The Welsh Local Government Association, police authorities and chief constables all agreed that the issue was fundamentally about finance. They identified a £79 million deficit by 2012-13, adding that this was by no means a worst-case scenario, which would see the deficit rising to £100 million. In order to recognise the regional cultural and geographical differences that exist within Wales, all agreed that Wales must be policed in regions. North Wales Police Authority at the time in particular supported a strong regional element, with real delegated powers.

This is very much groundhog day, déjà vu, all over again. I'd be grateful if you could confirm whether you will ensure that the UK Government considers the reports that we then produced, the work that we then carried out on behalf of the UK Home Secretary, and the decision he then took on the basis of the detailed work that we carried out here.

Thanks very much, Mark Isherwood. I have mentioned a number of reports that have been undertaken that we have commissioned, which have been commissioned in partnership, as well, with the UK Government, the former UK Government, and the Silk commission, I would say particularly. But, of course, we will be looking at all of the reports, and thank you for reminding us of the work you did. But I do think that we have got an opportunity here. We've seized the opportunity, I think, to consider the best arrangements for Wales, following that announcement earlier on regarding the abolition of police and crime commissioners. I think what is essential is that we have to, and I will say today and tomorrow—we must ensure that powers that are currently exercised by our police and crime commissioners in Wales should remain within Wales.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I am amazed weekly here by the mental filofax that is Mark Isherwood, often taking us back and reminding us. It's like groundhog day sometimes here, because this conversation has been ongoing for even longer than 2005, at least 30 years. I don't know if Adam Price remembers where he was on 2 November 2005, but, Adam, you were in the same room as the current Deputy First Minister and the current chief of staff of the Welsh Conservative Party, meeting Westminster Ministers to discuss, as Mark Isherwood has said already, the merger of the Welsh police forces. Nothing happens quickly at all in Wales, and probably, maybe, that's part of the problem.

The current police forces in Wales make no sense at all. The four police forces, with Gwent being such a small force, make no sense at all. Police Scotland has shown us that a unified force can succeed and can flourish, Mark. The evidence shows that Police Scotland is flourishing—[Interruption.] No, I can't take an intervention in a question. It's not failing at all. What the early days of Police Scotland did give us was warnings of how to do it properly. Any restructure or reduction in forces cannot be undertaken just as a cost-saving exercise. Financial investment in policing needs to be put in. It needs to put community first, and make sure that policing is accessible for all of the communities of Wales.

Back in 2005, the figure was put at £12 million, and all of the reserves of the four police authorities back then. As Alun said, this is a bit like déjà vu—money and resources that this Government spends in justice, but yet again it's highlighted that there is no accountability to this place and that you are standing here floundering, finding these things out through the media, rather than through the proper sources. Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with me that it's worth looking at a single unified Welsh police force, but that anything like that needs to be accountable to you or your successor and accountable to this place? Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you again. I know you have, Rhys ab Owen, had a long history of engagement in this, including of course the Thomas commission. What I would say to you today is that I absolutely agree with you that all of these discussions about the governance of policing and accountability in Wales must put community first. I'm very proud that it's a Welsh Labour Government that actually committed itself to funding police community support officers, because they are at the heart of our neighbourhood policing teams. We feel that the positive impact they make within their communities has been beneficial.

Cabinet Secretary, you will recall that, a few weeks ago, I raised questions regarding data gaps on waiting lists at the north Wales health board, and I subsequently wrote to you for further clarification on the circumstances that led to such a serious failure in health data sources. While I appreciate the response that you provided, as well as the explanation of the chief statistician on what went wrong, they raise a number of further questions. It is also unacceptable, I believe, that such an important update was published hidden away on a Government blog page.

First, what are the expected timescales for concluding the investigation, and what will be the consequences for the health board in terms of accountability? One of the reasons for the data gap was the fact that some pathways for patients referred for treatment in the independent sector, or in England, were wrongly removed from the official statistics. Does this suggest that figures were being manipulated? It's concerning that I've had a number of cases in my office, for instance, raising questions exactly along these lines. For instance, a constituent explains how they were on the list for a cataract surgery, which was due to be carried out by SpaMedica. Eleven weeks later, the patient was told that they would no longer be referred to the private provider, and was placed back on the waiting list, to the back of the queue. The constituent believes that this happened in order to make the waiting list figures look good. Is that the type of thing that we're looking at here?

Do you have a figure on the number of affected pathways, and how confident are you that this manipulation of the data isn't happening elsewhere in Wales? The chief statistician's blog also mentioned a misalignment between waiting list trends and operational management information. Is someone providing false information here? On a wider level, this raises serious concerns as to organisational culture and governance at the health board. Finally, will we have reliable data to be able to assess whether the promise to eliminate two-year waits at Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board by the end of 2025 has been achieved, and if so, will it be available before the election?

Well, the Member has taken the opportunity of his question to make allegations of manipulation and misconduct, which are on the record, but which have no basis whatsoever. I think it is important that we let the review be completed. I answered his point about the timescale in my initial answer. I expect that the data in January will be able to be published in the usual way, including Betsi Cadwaladr's data as well.

One of the reasons we were able to identify that there was a challenge in the data was that, by the recent introduction of provisional RTT figures—which the Member objected to, despite being supported by independent statisticians—because it gave us the opportunity of identifying trends early, played an important role in identifying the anomalies that are currently being investigated. Essentially, the provisional data didn't follow the expected trends, based on what we knew was happening in terms of operational intelligence, and that prompted further checks.

He's right to say that the issue arose in the context of data sets that were not aligned, if you like, to what we could see happening in terms of pathways for patients treated by independent providers. It was by marrying our understanding of the operational activity on the one hand with the monthly data that was being reported on the other that we were able to identify the issues that are currently being investigated. But it's important for us to have that review and for that to be completed. We will then have some of the detailed questions that he put to me answered. But, as I say, my expectation is that we will have that information in time for the reporting in January, which I'm sure he'll welcome.

Cabinet Secretary, I don't think my colleague Mabon ap Gwynfor was insinuating anything; it's actually what was in the blog. I'll read it out to you. It said:

'reported waiting list trends did not align with...operational management information'.

So, something is going wrong, and information is being inaccurately reported somewhere, or somebody, or part of the organisation, is providing the wrong information. So, Cabinet Secretary, you've talked an awful lot—and we all have, over these last couple of months—about openness and transparency in the NHS. This organisation in Betsi Cadwaladr has had these issues before, with management saying one thing, doing another, and things being covered up. So, I would think you should take this extremely seriously. I'm interested: are the Welsh Government going to look into this properly, to make sure there is no manipulation of the waiting list figures in Betsi Cadwaladr to make them look better than what they're actually doing? Because I think it's very important that, if people are to trust that this Welsh Government is honest and open about increasing transparency in our NHS, it needs to act when things like this are raised, instead of accusing Members across the Chamber of basically peddling misinformation.

Well, that was not the point I made. The point I made was that the use of the language 'manipulation' suggested a course of action for which there is no evidence. But the point I am making more importantly, I think, is that the commitment that this Government has to transparency is what has unearthed this issue. I took a decision to publish provisional referral-to-treatment data, which the Member also objected to my doing. And it's the collection of that data and the making available of it on a provisional basis, which has been supported by statisticians, which has unearthed this issue that is being reviewed.

He asked what action the Welsh Government has taken. He will recall that when I last stood here discussing this issue, I said that I was giving the health board 24 hours in which to resolve it to my satisfaction and that of the statisticians, otherwise I would instigate an immediate review. They failed to do that and I instigated the immediate review. I have issued a written statement that has set out what that review entails. I did that within days of having made that statement in the Senedd. It is because of this Government's commitment to transparency and to openness that we are having this discussion today. And I share with him the importance of making sure that data is reliable in the interests of improving services, but also in the interests of you scrutinising me and me scrutinising the health board.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Today, we honour with deep gratitude the life and service of the Honourable Dame Shân Legge-Bourke, who died peacefully at her home at the age of 82. She was one of Wales's most respected figures, known for her steadfast dedication to rural life, community services, charity and public duty. Dame Shân was Lord Lieutenant of Powys from 1998 to 2018, the monarch's representative in our largest county, carrying out official duties with dignity and warmth, while always championing the people and heritage of Powys. Her service extended far beyond ceremonial roles.

She gave her time and leadership to a remarkable range of charitable, agricultural and voluntary organisations, serving as president of the Powys branch of the Royal British Legion, president of Save the Children Wales, president of the Royal Welsh Agricultural Society and president of the Brecknock federation and national federation of young farmers clubs. She was also the High Sheriff of Powys, honorary colonel of the Infantry Battle School in Brecon, along with a number of other patronages that she served throughout our communities.

Dame Shân's deep connection with community was matched by her compassion, raising funds and awareness for good causes across Wales. Many can remember her unique 'hat talks', where she would don colourful hats, which she wore as lady in waiting to the Princess Royal on their many visits, turning those fun talks into joyful fundraising moments that helped raise thousands of pounds for local charities and good causes. She was a pioneering landowner, a custodian of Glanusk estate, where she supported local employment, cultural events and community initiatives, promoting Wales's rich rural economy and heritage. She was a star of tv in the Lady of Glanusk tv documentary, and she could often be seen on a mower or strimming grass around the estate. Dame Shân's remarkable contribution was recognised in her appointment as Dame Commander of the Royal Victorian Order, reflecting her many years of personal service to the Crown.

On a personal note, she was always very generous to me, and was always on hand with some advice as to how I should handle my role in public life. Her advice was simple and to the point, and highly effective. She told me, 'Don't do anything silly, keep out of trouble, turn up on time, do your homework and leave on time, and you won't go far wrong.'

On behalf of the people of Brecon and Radnorshire and Powys, we express our deep condolences to her children, grandchildren and her extended family, and all whose lives she touched. Her legacy of service, charity and community leadership will inspire us all for generations to come. Diolch yn fawr, Shân, and may you rest in peace.

I would like to place on record my thanks and congratulations to Dyfed-Powys Police on winning the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence category at the Wales Safer Communities Awards. Last year 1.6 million adults across England and Wales experienced stalking. Stalking can lead to death. It is stage 5 in the eight-step timeline leading to domestic homicide, so this programme is literally life-saving. An award such as this recognises a genuinely collaborative, compassionate and victim-centred approach.

This pioneering pilot, the only one of its kind in Wales, brings together specialist risk assessments, safety planning and practical support. Through their partnership with the Paladin National Stalking Advocacy Service, Dyfed-Powys Police have introduced independent stalking casework advocates and trained stalking champions, so that victims are listened to, believed and supported earlier. I pay tribute to Dyfed-Powys Police, but, more than that, I pay tribute to the victims and survivors of stalking who have taken part in this pilot. Your courage and bravery deserves recognition. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Prynhawn da. I'm pleased and grateful to be able to move this motion today to agree the general principles of the British Sign Language (Wales) Bill. If the motion is agreed today, which I urge all Members to do, it will be another huge step ahead in bringing forward what is vital legislation for Wales. I thank all three committees—the Equality and Social Justice Committee, the Finance Committee, and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee—for their Stage 1 scrutiny of the Bill, for their respective reports and for recommending that the Senedd agrees the general principles of the Bill, for welcoming the Bill's intentions, and for noting the evidence in relation to matters of legislative competence respectively.

I've been able to accept the vast majority of their recommendations, and I propose to table appropriate amendments during the ongoing stages of the Bill, if it passes today's stage. It has not been possible for me to accept all of the three committees' recommendations, and I've provided reasons for this in my responses to them. I will also touch on this later. I also thank the Cabinet Secretary and her officials for their collaborative-working approach to the Bill, and I look forward to working with her further as the Bill progresses. In my statement on introduction of the Bill, I outlined in detail what the Bill seeks to do and why this Bill is badly needed. Given the time available today, I don't intend to cover that in great detail again, but it is worth outlining some of the main points about the Bill.

The Bill recognises that BSL is a language in its own right, not a communication support need. It has been important to recognise that throughout this process. If we don't legislate on this now, Wales would be the only UK nation without sign language legislation. This Bill will also address the current anomaly created by the UK Act, which places a duty on the UK Government to prepare and publish BSL reports describing what Government departments have done to promote the use of BSL, but specifically excludes reporting on matters devolved to Scotland and Wales.

The BSL (Wales) Bill places legal duties on the Welsh Government and public bodies to actively promote and facilitate the use of British Sign Language, aiming to remove barriers faced by deaf BSL signers in accessing services in their first language. The Bill requires Welsh Ministers to publish a national BSL strategy within 18 months of the Act coming into force, setting out how BSL will be promoted and facilitated. Progress reports on the strategy must be published at least every three years, ensuring transparency and accountability. The strategy must be reviewed at least every six years, with any revisions also published. Public bodies listed in the Bill must develop and publish their own BSL plans within 12 months of the national strategy, followed by reports on their implementation and any unmet actions. To ensure consistency and flexibility, Welsh Ministers are required to issue guidance to public bodies on how they should be promoting and facilitating BSL. Public bodies must also review their plans if directed by Welsh Ministers or if the national strategy is revised. The Bill also establishes the role of a BSL adviser, which will be the first statutory BSL adviser role in the UK, and a BSL panel. The importance of this cannot be overstated.

My response to the Equality and Social Justice Committee's Stage 1 report on the Bill reaffirms the Bill's core purpose: to deliver real, measurable improvements for the deaf community in Wales. I welcome the committee's scrutiny and agree with the need for clear, time-bound targets in the national BSL strategy, ensuring that the Bill leads to meaningful change. The ESJ report addresses concerns about making it a statutory requirement for the BSL adviser to be deaf, explaining that such a provision could risk the Bill's passage due to potential legal challenges. As my response to them stated, a successful legal challenge to a single provision requiring the BSL adviser to be deaf would mean that the whole Bill would fall. That would be unacceptable and would let the entire deaf community down. The ESJ committee response also highlights the urgent need to expand the BSL interpreter workforce, and acknowledges the importance of updating cost estimates to reflect inflation.

In response to the committee's recommendations, I've made several commitments to strengthen the Bill. These include reviewing and clarifying the description of BSL in the explanatory memorandum, aligning the publication of BSL guidance with the national strategy, and placing a formal duty on Welsh Ministers to consult deaf BSL signers on both the strategy and guidance.

The committee has recommended that I review the description of BSL in the explanatory memorandum to address stakeholder concerns and consider whether a clear definition should be included on the face of the Bill. I accept this recommendation and will work with the Cabinet Secretary to revise the explanatory memorandum accordingly. I also intend to bring forward an amendment at Stage 2 to add a provision to the face of the Bill clarifying that BSL, for the purpose of the Bill, refers to both the visual and tactile forms. This is in line with the provisions of the British Sign Language (Scotland) Act of 2015.

I agree with the ESJ committee that it is vital that the BSL interpreter workforce is expanded. BSL interpreters provide an absolutely essential service, and I thank those interpreting today. It acts as a vital link for deaf BSL signers both to those providing key services and to the general non-BSL-speaking public. The expansion of the BSL interpreter workforce will be necessary even without the additional duties that will be put in place should the Bill become law, although these additional duties would clearly strengthen this. This also links back to the need for the strategy to specify that targets will be required. While it would be impossible for a framework Bill to pre-specify measurable targets for BSL translators and interpreters in Wales within the BSL strategy, I propose to bring forward an amendment at Stage 2 requiring the strategy to specify that such targets will be required.

The ESJ committee has recommended that to ensure engagement and co-production the Bill should place a formal requirement on Welsh Ministers to consult deaf BSL signers on the national BSL strategy and guidance. I accept this recommendation and will bring forward the necessary amendments. However, co-production and consultation are very different things. Consultation itself is only one element of the wider engagement, and it is not the co-production that will be necessary for the development of the strategy, guidance and plans. I expect the BSL adviser and BSL panel to have a role to play in the development of the strategy and guidance and to help ensure the engagement and co-production needed.

I have sympathy with the committee's recommendation 10, which recommends an amendment that will place duties on Welsh Ministers to prepare and issue guidance on the appropriate route for BSL signers to make complaints about access to services. As I and many of us have seen in our casework load, many constituents do not find current public service complaints procedures satisfactory. Some might say that's an understatement. However, my intention is to update the explanatory memorandum that accompanies the Bill to clarify the options available to complainants requiring recourse in instances where public services are failing to meet their duties under the Bill.

I welcome the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee's report, the LJC report, and three recommendations and accept two of these. I will consider specifying a minimum and maximum number of members for the panel and, if appropriate, bring forward an amendment at Stage 2. Additionally, while I believe the current wording of section 8(1) regarding listed public bodies is clear, I will table amendments at Stage 2 to include the full names of the Welsh NHS trusts as set out in their establishment Orders.

However, I have rejected recommendation 1, which recommends an amendment to the Bill to require that the statutory guidance is laid before the Senedd. I've considered this recommendation carefully and discussed the issue with the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice. On balance, and on the basis of the need to secure and maintain consensus, I'm rejecting the recommendation. As the committee itself has set out, the laying of Welsh Government guidance of this nature would be unusual, and guidance of this sort would not normally be directly scrutinised by the Senedd. Whilst this is the case, as I outlined in my evidence to the committee, I do expect that Senedd Members and Senedd committees will keep a close eye on the guidance and on how the legislation in its entirety is implemented. I believe that would be the case whether the guidance is laid or not.

I welcome the Finance Committee's conclusions on the financial implications of the Bill, and their statement that the collaborative approach taken with this Welsh Government has been invaluable throughout the Bill's development. Although I'm confident that the costs set out in the regulatory impact assessment are robust and complete, I accept the recommendations to work with the Cabinet Secretary to analyse cost-benefits and clarify interaction with existing BSL policies. However, this will depend upon the detail of the national BSL strategy and the plans, which can only be developed after enactment of the legislation.

I'm also content that the costs for listed public bodies in developing BSL plans are accurate, although implementation costs cannot yet be quantified. The statutory reporting provisions in the Bill will ensure that progress is monitored and a separate post-implementation review should not, therefore, be necessary, although Members may have a view on this themselves at Stage 2. I'll leave that with you.

Finally, I thank my team, the Commission's Bill team and external partners for their hard work, support and guidance. If passed, this BSL (Wales) Bill will be the most progressive piece of BSL legislation in the UK. So, let's make this happen together and be proud of it together on behalf of deaf people across Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much. It was a great privilege to scrutinise this measure to deliver equality and social justice for a group of largely unseen citizens whose needs are not being properly heard. We found the Stage 1 scrutiny stimulating, thought-provoking and challenging. We have needed to do things differently, particularly when it comes to simultaneous translation not just from Welsh to English, but from Welsh and English into British Sign Language. This experience has only served to underline why this legislation is needed.

We received compelling testimony from deaf BSL signers, their representative organisations, service providers, as well as those who uphold standards in public services, of the overdue need for this legislation. I thank everyone who took part in this Stage 1 scrutiny, particularly the BSL community. We have raised their expectations and we now need to deliver.

The vision of this Bill is to give more status and standing to British Sign Language as a distinct language and culture, and empower citizens who use BSL to have their voices heard and their needs better met. You may well ask why this Bill should be necessary when the rights of all deaf people, particularly those whose first language is BSL, should have been protected by the Equality Act 2010. A member of one of the committee's focus groups summed it up,

'The current levers are not working',

'The Equality Act isn’t working for us, the accessible standards in health are not working—so pretty much every sector in Wales isn’t working. So, we want improvements everywhere'.

The Bill's central aim is simple: to promote and facilitate more BSL in public services, so ensuring deaf BSL signers can access information and support on equal terms with other citizens. We had considerable discussion on which public bodies should be listed on the face of the Bill and whether or not others should be added. But we came down in support of the approach adopted by Mark Isherwood to prioritise the initial focus on those parts of the public sector where the need is most pressing, namely health and local government, particularly education. These are the universal services that all citizens will have to use at some stage in their lives. We deal with the process for future inclusion of other bodies in recommendation 6.

The committee was unanimous in favour of agreeing the general principles of the Bill, and five of our 12 recommendations require amendments at Stage 2. The Member in charge has confirmed his intention to bring forward amendments in four of the five, and I will turn to recommendation 10, which the Member in charge has rejected, in a moment. The other recommendations are to both the Welsh Government and to the Member in charge to clarify or relating to the process for successful implementation.

The success of this law will depend on three things: (1) adequate funding; (2) clear guidance; and (3) strong engagement with the deaf community. It is vital that the Bill leads to tangible change and avoids tokenism. The legislation won't deliver the change we need without adequate resourcing. We know that resources are scarce in all public bodies, and the needs of BSL speakers are at risk of being lost in competition with other funding pressures. So, we're apprehensive about the capacity of the public sector to collaborate across local and public service boundaries, which we think is essential to ensure that these services are delivered cost-effectively and are front and centre of all these local bodies' delivery plans.

The biggest barrier to implementation, by quite some margin, was the availability of interpreters and the long-term sustainability of that workforce. That is why work to train and retain more BSL interpreters and translators, and to secure the long-term success of the profession in Wales, must begin immediately. We disagree with the BSL stakeholder task and finish group that this is a medium-term concern. We think it's an immediate one.

In relation to the role of the BSL adviser, this important public appointment will not attract the considerable powers enjoyed by the Welsh Language Commissioner, but it is going to be just as important and influential as the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence adviser. The appropriate committee in the next Senedd should be offered the opportunity to conduct a pre-appointment hearing with the preferred candidate for BSL adviser, so that we can be satisfying ourselves that this candidate is fit for purpose for this important job.

In terms of deaf-led engagement, it is essential that the legislation must prioritise engagement with deaf communities, so that they feel that this is the opportunity that will take forward their ability to be shaping their own future as more centrally involved in the services and their rights as a community. The Welsh Government has made a good start with empowering a leadership cohort made up of deaf BSL signers through the creation of the stakeholder task and finish group. It's a good work in progress, but it needs to continue, making sure this community across Wales is equipped with the skills and experiences necessary to lead on planning and delivery of the Bill.

One of the gaps in the legislation is a lack of clarity around the routes available to complainants in situations where they have exhausted internal complaints procedures. To be clear, we are not suggesting a parallel pathway for complaints, but the committee is keen to clarify how exactly we are going to inform citizens who may or may not be involved centrally in the delivery of this legislation about what their rights are and how they do it. So, we are not suggesting in any way regarding the Children's Commissioner for Wales, the Older People's Commissioner for Wales, and other commissioners, that this will in any way diminish their roles, but it does need to be more explicit about how a BSL user can complain, and where an organisation is simply not listening or acting on their complaint—. People need to know under what circumstances they can avail themselves of the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales.

So, the committee notes that this has been rejected by the Member in charge, who nevertheless is going to—. We want to look at this with the greater clarity we hope will be provided in the explanatory memorandum, and it remains to be seen whether this will be sufficient. For example, I would expect every public body to have a video available in BSL to enable the citizen who wants to complain about x organisation to be able to get the fundamental information about exactly how they would go about it in that particular body.

Jenny, you need to conclude now, please.

Finally, I will say what one of the BSL signers told us:

'The Bill would make us feel respected and valued. But without proper funding, planning, and Deaf-led leadership, it won't go far enough.'

Peredur, can you stop a minute because Mark hasn't got his translation in place?

Sorry.

We'll just wait for Mark to go back to his seat and get his translation.

No problem.

And I'll let you start again.

Okay.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Once more with feeling, I suppose. There we are.

As we highlighted in our report, this is a framework Bill setting out areas of action and expectation. However, it does not quantify the costs of implementing key provisions such as the BSL strategy and individual BSL plans. While we understand why these costs cannot be modelled at this stage, greater transparency on the potential financial benefits and savings would be helpful. We therefore ask the Member in charge to work with the Welsh Government to assess these benefits as the Bill progresses, and we welcome his positive response.

The committee agrees that the costs should be viewed as an investment. Improving access for deaf BSL users will deliver long-term value for money and reduce inefficiencies caused by communication barriers. The proposed BSL adviser and assisting panel will also be central to effective implementation and stakeholder engagement.

We welcome the Welsh Government's decision to allocate funding for this Bill in its 2026-27 budget, while recognising that decisions beyond that point will rest with any future Government. We also note the work already under way on BSL policy within the Welsh Government, which complements the aims of the Bill. However, we found it challenging to separate the costs outlined in the RIA from those already committed, suggesting that costs could be overstated. That is why we have asked the Member in charge to continue working with the Welsh Government to clarify how these policies interact and whether anticipated costs remain accurate, and we welcome his acceptance of that recommendation.

The committee welcomes the methods used by the Member in charge as a basis for the cost estimate, including using existing legislation to calculate financial impact. This is a sensible approach, and makes best use of available data, producing a clear and credible overview of the Bill's financial implications.

We also note that substantial costs will fall on listed public bodies as they implement their individual BSL plans. While we recognise why these costs are not included in the RIA, it remains difficult to understand how public bodies will absorb these costs within existing budgets. This is why we asked for further clarification, and it is disappointing that the Member in charge has rejected this recommendation, as greater transparency would have been beneficial for the bodies impacted.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee reported on the Member in charge's Bill on 4 December. We heard evidence from the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip, and the Member in charge. We note that this is a Member's Bill and that the Member in charge has collaborated with the Welsh Government in bringing it forward. We also note the case made by the Member in charge as to why there is a need for this legislation, namely to ensure that there is at least parity with the statutory duties in other UK jurisdictions in relation to BSL provision, and to address the demonstrable challenges faced by BSL signers in accessing public services.

Our report also commented on the Member in charge's reference to this Bill as a 'framework Bill'. We recognise, however, that the Bill is seeking to promote the use of BSL in Wales and, as such, its policy focus is narrow, with the duty placed on the Welsh Ministers to prepare a national BSL strategy and issue guidance for BSL plans to be published by listed public bodies. Therefore, we do not consider this to be wholly a framework Bill, given that significant policy and law will not be delivered through subordinate legislation. We’re content with the approach adopted in this Bill.

Section 3 of the Bill requires Welsh Ministers to issue guidance to ‘listed public bodies’, which is defined at section 8 of the Bill, on how they may promote and facilitate the use of BSL in exercising their functions. We acknowledge it would be atypical for the Senedd to have a formal role in scrutinising guidance. However, we felt that attention must be afforded to the guidance in this instance, given it will be a significant factor in delivering the policy objectives underpinning the Bill.

Whilst it's not standard practice, we consider that it would be beneficial for the guidance to be laid before the Senedd in order to draw it to the attention of Members of the Senedd formally. This is particularly important given that the implementation of the Bill, if passed by this Senedd, would be the responsibility of a future Welsh Government, and any scrutiny of that implementation would fall to the next Senedd. As a result, the committee recommended that the Member in charge should table an amendment to the Bill to require that the statutory guidance issued under section 3, and any future revisions of it, are laid before the Senedd. The Member in charge rejected this recommendation, and we note his reasons for doing so.

Section 5 of the Bill requires the Welsh Government to appoint a person to serve as BSL adviser, along with a panel to assist them. The Bill does not specify the size of the supporting panel. However, the explanatory memorandum notes that a typical public appointed advisory board, to which the panel will be closely aligned, has six to eight members, with a final decision on the panel size resting with the Welsh Government and the BSL adviser. We understand the desire for flexibility around the number of panel members, but there's a danger that, without specifying a number, the panel could become unwieldy and incur unexpected costs, or could be left with insufficient numbers to deliver the support required. We believe that flexibility could be provided by specifying a minimum and maximum number of panel members on the face of the Bill. We recommend that the Member in charge should consider the merits of specifying a minimum and maximum number of members that should sit on the panel.

Section 8(1) sets out the meaning of 'a listed public body' for the purpose of the Bill. Section 8(1)(c) defines some NHS trusts using their full official titles whilst others have been abbreviated. We recommend, for clarity, that the Member in charge should table an amendment to section 8(1)(c) to reflect the full names of specified Welsh NHS trusts by reference to their corresponding establishment Orders. We are pleased to note that these final two recommendations have been accepted by the Member in charge.

Can I just, very briefly, raise my personal views? My sister is profoundly deaf and is a BSL user, so that will count as me declaring an interest. I fully support this Bill. I've been with Mark from the very beginning of this Bill, and I think it's really important for the deaf community in Wales that this Bill is successful. I urge all Members, in my personal capacity, to support it. If I hadn't been speaking on behalf of the committee, I'd be speaking in favour of it as an individual Member. Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to Members of the Senedd, to you all, for giving me the opportunity to speak in this debate on the general principles of the British Sign Language (Wales) Bill.

The Welsh Government welcomes the comprehensive scrutiny provided by the committees during Stage 1. I'd like to express my gratitude to the committees, to their members, and all of those who have participated so thoughtfully in scrutinising the Bill at Stage 1. Their diligence and collective expertise have been invaluable, as we've heard this afternoon from the Chairs. You will all be aware that I continue to champion advancing social justice, promoting equality and enhancing well-being across Wales.

As the Member who has led and promoted this Bill, Mark Isherwood, has said and made clear, BSL is a language, a culture and an identity. By working to enshrine support for BSL in law, we send a clear message that Wales values and respects its deaf BSL signing community. This Bill does go further than the other UK nations. The example has already been given of the creation of a dedicated BSL adviser role, a unique feature of this Bill that will ensure expert guidance and accountability in delivering its aims.

The Bill is, of course, as I said, a Member Bill led by Mark Isherwood. I want to acknowledge Mark's unwavering commitment to the deaf BSL signing community in Wales. Members will recall that we've contributed to the drafting of Mark Isherwood's Bill. This collaborative working between Mark Isherwood and myself throughout this process has been constructive and positive, demonstrating our shared commitment to improving outcomes for the deaf BSL signing community in Wales.

I'm pleased that the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee and the Equality and Social Justice Committee both support the general principles of this Bill. The Equality and Social Justice Committee recommended that the Senedd agrees the general principles of the British Sign Language (Wales) Bill at Stage 1. I hope, as has been said already, that all Members here today will support this.

The reports produced by the committees have highlighted the importance of deaf leadership, and I support the recommendations in the reports that strengthen engagement with the deaf community. I agree that BSL signers must be engaged in the development of the national BSL strategy and BSL guidance, and also that we must make sure that the appointments process for the BSL adviser meets the needs of the deaf community.

Would the Member give way? Thank you. I think it's hugely commendable that the Government has worked with a backbencher to bring forward a Bill like this. It's simply not possible for a backbencher to be able to draft and understand the technical implications of a Bill, so I think it's hugely to the Welsh Government's credit. This Bill would not be happening without the help and co-operation of the Welsh Government.

Thinking in terms of future Senedds, will there be an opportunity to offer lessons through the Senedd Commission for future parliamentarians on how they could do this in future, drawing on the leadership the Welsh Government has shown and the co-operation that Mark Isherwood has shown, to make sure that this isn't a one-off?

Diolch yn fawr, Lee Waters. I think this was also mentioned earlier on by the Chair of the Finance Committee—that this is a model for us to look at, working together. Indeed, Members from all parties are engaged, through the Business Committee, following the seventh Senedd committee report, in looking at these ways of working and how we can learn from them in terms of the future, so I hope it will be something that can be a model and an example.

Just going back to the Bill, I recognise the vital role that the listed public bodies will play in implementing the aims of the Bill. I agree that the BSL guidance should be published at the same time as the national BSL strategy, to ensure that timely support is available to bodies to develop their plans. It will be important that listed public bodies collaborate and are equipped with the right expertise to prepare and execute their plans effectively. I also agree that the list of listed public bodies included within section 8 of the Bill must be kept under review as capacity to promote and facilitate BSL grows.

The Welsh Government is committed to strengthening the BSL workforce and recognises the importance of BSL interpreters available in Wales. It's vital that we work in collaboration with deaf BSL signers to ensure that their needs and priorities are met. We've already begun this work with the Welsh Government BSL stakeholder task and finish group, which has produced both short-term and long-term recommendations in relation to the BSL workforce. This must be the foundation of any future activity. I recognise the ESJ Committee's recommendation to be more ambitious in our approach, and I accept the need to include clear targets as part of the BSL strategy.

Members will recall that, in response to Mark Isherwood's legislative oral statement on the introduction of the BSL (Wales) Bill on 16 July, I confirmed that the Welsh Government will provide the costs for the first year in full, for 2026-27, of £214,300. This was based on the figures in the Member's RIA, and I'm pleased that the Finance Committee was content with the financial implications of the Bill. In my response to their report, I outlined my acceptance of their recommendations and a financial resolution for the Bill. I recognise the support of the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language in enabling us to have that very clearly identified in terms of those costs.

I would also like to refer to the recommendation by the Finance Committee to conduct a post-implementation review. It will be essential that the implementation of the national BSL strategy and guidance will be monitored as the Act progresses, to ensure that its aims and purposes are being realised. Having reflected on the evidence presented during Stage 1, the Welsh Government is satisfied that the general principles of the Bill should be supported. The Bill provides a necessary framework to address gaps in current provision, offers a proportionate and focused approach, and aligns with our commitment to fairness and inclusion. 

In closing, I reiterate the Welsh Government's appreciation for the thorough work undertaken by the committees and all contributors to Stage 1. The Bill represents a significant opportunity to ensure the full participation of BSL signers in Wales. While there is more work to do, the Welsh Government believes that the general principles and financial resolution merit support. I will continue to offer my support to Mark Isherwood and stand ready to work collaboratively with Members to refine and strengthen the Bill as it progresses. We have an opportunity to build on the constructive and collaborative approach that has characterised discussions so far, ensuring that this spirit continues as the Bill progresses. Diolch yn fawr.

I would like to take this opportunity to welcome, once again, the British Sign Language Bill and to thank Mark for his exceptional work on this piece of vital legislation. As a member of the Equality and Social Justice Committee, I had the pleasure of taking evidence from Mark and a whole host of witnesses who have a keen interest in this Bill. What was abundantly clear from our evidence sessions was the widespread support for Mark and his Bill. It was also clear that a BSL Bill is long overdue. To quote the British Deaf Association, the Bill provides a clear foundation to drive progress for deaf signers across Wales. It gives a new focus on information being available in BSL and it presents deaf signers as full citizens of Wales, making a substantive contribution to our country rather than being a burden. For deaf signers across Wales, this respect and recognition of ourselves as a distinct language minority is critical. End quote.

The last point in particular hits home to me. Prior to taking evidence on this Bill, I saw BSL as a communication tool rather than a language with all of its cultural implications. We owe it to the deaf signing community to put as much effort into protecting this language as we do the other languages of Wales, if not more. After all, we can choose whether to siarad Cymraeg; for deaf signers, it is not a choice. Our committee made a number of recommendations to improve the legislation, but above all, we recommended that the Senedd agrees to the general principles of the BSL Bill. I hope that every Member will support our recommendations and agree to support Wales's deaf signing community by getting behind Mark's Bill, helping to make it better at Stages 2 and 3, and ensuring that it becomes law in 2026. Diolch yn fawr. 

Sioned—

I'd like to also thank Mark Isherwood for all his tireless work on this Bill, and I'm very pleased to speak in this very important debate. I do hope the Senedd will agree with the general principles. I was a member of the committee that looked at the Bill, and I think I agree with what Jenny Rathbone said at the beginning when she made her contribution, that it was a privilege to take part in that process. I think it clearly brought home to the committee the importance of recognising BSL as a language. As the briefing that we've had from the British Deaf Association says, the Bill presents deaf signers as full citizens of Wales, making a substantial contribution to our country, rather than being a burden. I think that is a key part of what this Bill is going to do—it's going to mean that signers are full citizens and fully part of an inclusive society.

I think this point is reflected in our discussion on the role of the BSL adviser, which Sioned has already mentioned, because this is an absolutely crucial post, and as has already been said, it is a unique post and the other countries in the UK don't have such a post. So, it really is an absolutely great opportunity to make sure that we get somebody who can lead this strongly from the front. Our recommendation 7 calls for consideration of how the needs of the deaf community are reflected appropriately in the appointment process. Obviously, if a deaf adviser were to be appointed, this would be so important to the deaf community and would serve as a role model. So, I do hope that the Government will consider that carefully, but I do note what the Member taking the Bill through said, about how he couldn't risk losing the Bill by requiring the adviser to be deaf. But I think that has got to be looked at very carefully.

The other important point I wanted to highlight is recommendation 12, urging the Welsh Government to ramp up efforts to expand the BSL interpreter workforce. We all know how difficult it is to get interpreters when needed. It's also been reiterated to me how important it is for professionals who are trying to get interpreters to be aware of how the system works, because a request for an interpreter does not mean you automatically have one, and that is absolutely crucial, particularly in the health field. It's been mentioned already here this afternoon how health is one of the key areas where we need BSL interpreters urgently, where a patient or carer's understanding of the situation can actually be a matter of life or death.

This was brought home to me very strongly by one of my constituents, a deaf constituent with two very small children who had to spend long periods of time in the children's hospital at the University Hospital of Wales because of the complex medical condition of one of her children. She was able to have three hours of interpretation a day, which was all that was available, which didn't always coincide with when interpretation was needed. She described a very difficult situation where consent was needed for an operation, but an interpreter wasn't available. It's for those really difficult situations that we have to make sure that interpreters are available. So, I think that's a very important part of the Bill, so that parents, carers and patients can have information.

The importance of BSL, finally, was brought home to me when Dorothy Miles was honoured by having Wales's sixteenth purple plaque in Rhyl, when people came from all parts of the UK to see this purple plaque unveiled, because this was an opportunity to celebrate the BSL culture. Dorothy Miles became the first woman to write and perform deaf poetry, and teaching deaf and hearing people of the importance of sign language, and of it as a true and potent language. So, I think the cultural issue is also so important. This is a very important bit of legislation today, and I'm very pleased to have taken part in the committee process. I do hope it will be accepted unanimously by the Senedd today.

I want to join the long queue of people who are thanking Mark Isherwood for bringing this Bill forward here today. I'm very proud to speak on it and to have been part of the committee that scrutinised it at Stage 1. I'd also like to welcome and pay tribute to people who are with us this afternoon as well, many stakeholders, I can see, who gave evidence to us. Thank you to you. I learnt a lot in terms of the language, in terms of the culture and in terms of what we need to scrutinise, so I'm very grateful to you specifically.

This speaks to me of what we should all care deeply about—fairness, dignity and making sure that everyone in Wales can take part fully in public life. For too long, deaf BSL signers have had to fight to be seen and heard. This Bill is an opportunity to say clearly that deaf people are a valued, linguistic and cultural community with enormous contributions to make in Wales. We are the ones who need to adjust our arrangements. If this legislation is to make a real difference in people's lives, we have to be honest about what still needs to change and what actions need to be taken.

The clearest and most practical challenge we face to this Bill is the crisis in interpretation. We were absolutely right, in our report in the Equality and Social Justice Committee, to identify the shortage of BSL interpreters and translators as the single biggest threat to effective implementation of this Bill. As of July of this year, there were just 54 registered sign language interpreters based in Wales—54. Many of those trained through the BSL Futures programme nearly 20 years ago, and are now, respectfully, approaching the end of their working lives. But without action now, as we've heard, the risk is obvious: longer waits, poorer access to services and deaf people still struggling to attend medical appointments, as we've heard, engage with public bodies or participate fully in civic life.

We had our own experience, because I know that our committee clerks, who are seated here today, and I do thank them, struggled to book interpreters for the sessions of our committee. We cannot—we must not—allow this Bill to fail because we didn't have the foresight to address this crisis now. As Mark has acknowledged in his response, the expansion of the BSL interpreter workforce would be necessary even without this Bill. I welcome, therefore, the Welsh Government's acceptance of the committee's recommendation to expand the workforce and look forward to seeing the publishing of the BSL route-map in early 2026.

I just want to touch on one other issue and that is the importance of deaf leadership in this field. The British Deaf Association have been crystal clear on this point. They put it:

'We do not believe that it is appropriate, possible or efficient for non-signers to lead on determining the path for our future lives'.

Deaf BSL signers bring a lifetime of lived experience and expertise. They understand the barriers, the frustrations and the missed opportunities. They know what works and what doesn't. It is hard to justify asking them to wait while hearing people, however well intentioned, attempt to work this out through interpreters and consultation exercises. Like Plaid Cymru, the Welsh Liberal Democrats believe that the BSL adviser should come from the deaf BSL community. However, we do acknowledge the risks that that might lead to this Bill, but it is important to state on record that there should be careful consideration of how the appointments process for both the BSL adviser and the advisory panel is designed. This cannot be a standard public appointments process; it must be shaped explicitly with deaf leadership in mind.

I finish, Dirprwy Lywydd, by saying that this framework legislation is incredibly important, but frameworks need foundations. Foundations require investment and they must be built by the people whose lives this Bill is meant to change. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Today we have the opportunity to discuss a piece of legislation that can transform lives across Wales—the British Sign Language (Wales) Bill, introduced by Mark Isherwood. I and Reform warmly welcome this Bill and I extend my sincere thanks to the Member in charge, Mark, for his unwavering persistence in bringing it forward. It has been long overdue, hasn't it? For years Mark has championed the rights of deaf people, chairing the cross-party group on deaf issues and listening to the lived experience of the deaf community. As Mark rightly stated, consultation and engagement have revealed strong support for the Bill throughout Wales. The Bill is the culmination of dedication, and it deserves our full support. British Sign Language is not a means of communication; as has been said, it's a rich, vibrant language in its own right. It's a first, preferred language for thousands of deaf people across Wales, yet, too often, they face barriers when accessing public services, education, healthcare and employment, and, without proper support, they are denied equality and the chance to participate fully in society. This Bill seeks to change that by placing duties on Welsh Ministers and public bodies to actively promote and facilitate the use of BSL. It aims to make Wales the strongest nation in the UK for BSL users, going further in legislation than in Scotland, in England and in Northern Ireland.

A key area where this matters most is education. In Wales, there is no dedicated specialist school solely for deaf pupils. Instead, deaf children are supported in mainstream schools or through specialist resource spaces, supported by teachers of the deaf, who are in declining numbers. This approach can work when the right adaptations are in place, but, too often, schools lack the resources, training or interpreters needed to make it effective. And in Wales, we face challenges providing sufficient specialist support as teachers retire. This is something that I have grave concerns about: whether we can train and recruit to achieve the aims of this Bill. The Bill gives us a chance to move that from good will to consistency, so that access to BSL support does not depend on postcode, budget pressure or the determination of individual staff. 

Let me share a few positive examples that clearly demonstrate what is possible in my own constituency region. At Ysgol Gymraeg Gwynllyw in Trevethin, a Welsh-medium school, a pupil with special educational needs, including deafness, is thriving. Thanks to the tailored support, dedicated staff and appropriate adaptations, this young person is fully engaged, achieving their potential and enjoying mainstream school life. This is the kind of success that we should see everywhere.

Only this morning I was able to attend a Church in Wales primary school's carol service for the community in their school, where I was delighted to hear a beautiful rendition of 'We Wish You a Merry Christmas'. As well as singing, the children were also signing along to the music, and it was just wonderful to see that sort of inclusivity. These instances give me real hope that the passing of this Bill will make a positive contribution to people's lives in Wales, and that there is an appetite for it.

Will you take an intervention?

Of course.

I'm rather puzzled by your support for this Bill, because I note that every Reform—. When we do hear about their policies, which isn't that often, one of the things we do hear about very often is that they want to scrap diversity, inclusion and equality roles in our local authorities across the country. So, why are you in support of this Bill? How can you be in support of this Bill while also defending and proposing that diversity, inclusion and equality roles should be scrapped?

I find it deeply regrettable that you're making something so important party political. I do not think this—[Interruption.] No, I don't think this is appropriate. I'm actually saying—[Interruption.] In this Chamber now, I am committing us to this. I think it's very important, and I know that I have the backing of my party on it.

This Bill will drive exactly the improvements—better access to BSL in classrooms, more teacher training and guidance—to ensure schools make the necessary adaptations. It will help remove barriers so that every deaf child in Wales can flourish, regardless of where they live.

Deputy Presiding Officer, this is a moment for unity, but unity must be matched by delivery. The success of this Bill will depend on proper guidance, realistic funding and meaningful engagement with deaf organisations as it's implemented. The Welsh Government has already signalled its support, which is welcome, and we have seen cross-party backing in previous stages. I hope and I believe that this Bill will receive unanimous cross-party support as it progresses. Together, we can send a powerful message that Wales values BSL as a language, respects the deaf community and is committed to true equality. So, thank you to the committees for their work, and I echo much of what has already been said. Let us accept the general principles laid before us today, take forward this Bill and let's build a more inclusive Wales for generations to come. Diolch.

Good afternoon, everyone. Diolch, Polly. Diolch, Martin. Diolch, Mark. Polly from RNID, Martin from BDA, diolch for their engagement with me for this speech. But, more importantly, a big diolch to Cedric Moon, a constituent who has contacted me over the last few years, a tireless deaf campaigner, and has taught me so much about the deaf community. Before receiving correspondence from Cedric Moon, I was totally ignorant about BSL. I did not realise that BSL was a language. I imagine that is true, that ignorance is true, of many people out in our community, but BSL is a language. And we all know, especially those of us who speak more than one language, how powerful language is. It's more than just words. It connects us. It shapes our identity. Speaking more than one language opens opportunities, opens cultures. It's how we learn, how we work, how we contribute and how we participate in society. But, for the deaf community here in Wales, British Sign Language or BSL is not just an important tool, is not something nice to have, it's a lifeline. And I've received similar e-mails as Julie Morgan has received about parents being in hospital and struggling, not having that interpreter present when a loved one is ill. It's a lifeline. It shouldn't be seen as an afterthought or a niche matter, but a language that is integral to our society. We need to normalise BSL in the same way that we've normalised the Welsh language. I hope that this BSL Act will take us on the same route that the Welsh language has gone in Wales, by putting BSL on an equal footing.

Laura Anne Jones mentioned about going to her children's nativity play recently. Last week, I went to Ysgol Treganna’s nativity play, and they signed to every song. Every song was signed. And my five-year-old now is teaching me how to sign. She loves it; she loves to be able to sign. But we have to admit, despite positive steps, that BSL faces incredible challenges. We've heard this afternoon about shortages of BSL interpreters and also shortages of BSL teachers, that there is no deaf school in Wales anymore. The stakeholder group had made recommendations that the Welsh Government should act now to try and sort out the gaps, so that a lack of BSL interpreters does not block the ambitions of this fantastic Bill.

There also needs to be better data on the BSL workforce here in Wales. We know that we only have 54 interpreters in Wales now, but we don't know how many more are needed to plug the gap. We also need to make sure that there’s better co-operation between various bodies, between local authorities, between health boards, between education services. They all should be sharing resources rather than them being kept in silos. They all should be sharing the resource they have. Of course, as with everything—we heard this quite clearly yesterday—plugging the gap will cost money, but I'm confident that short-term cost will lead to long-term gain. A RAND report suggested that every £1 invested in BSL teaching for families and children aged zero to five yields about £14 in return.

In Wales, we currently support interpretation and translation of 140 plus community languages. One of these is BSL, and it is the third most requested language in Wales to be translated and interpreted. With this in mind, BSL should be a priority group, as their beautiful visual language is rightly recognised as one of the four indigenous languages of the UK, and a vital form of communicating for so many people. It’s a language that should empower people. It should frame deaf signers as assets, and BSL as a solution and not as a burden or an inconvenience. I mentioned yesterday in my question to the FM that Welsh and English are equal in law here in Wales. May I suggest that we should become a trilingual nation, with a place for Welsh, English, but also for BSL in our society? Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch. I'm aware that time is very, very short. Thanks very much to Jenny Rathbone as Chair of the ESJ committee, and for unanimously agreeing the general principles of the Bill. As you've said, success will depend upon adequate funding, clear guidance and real engagement with the deaf community. As you rightly said, the biggest barrier to implementation is the availability of interpreters and translators. I agree it's an immediate concern. You referred to the need for a pre-appointment hearing for the BSL adviser—clearly, that would normally be the case with public appointments, so I would expect that to apply—and the need to be more explicit about how a BSL user can complain.

I thank Peredur Owen Griffiths, as Chair of the Finance Committee, for your contribution and for sharing the committee's conclusions regarding a number of matters, particularly around the cost of implementing future provisions, the cost to public bodies and a post-implementation review. And then the Cabinet Secretary responded to the point you made to her regarding that.

I thank Mike Hedges, as Chair of the LJC committee, for his comments, again drawing attention to the need for attention to the guidance issued by the Welsh Government, pointing out that implementation responsibility will be for the next Welsh Government, the need to specify a minimum and maximum number of panel members, which I addressed, and to add full names of NHS trusts, which I addressed, and I endorse his comment that he's been with me from the beginning on this.

Cabinet Secretary, thank you for your comments. As you said, and reinforced, BSL is a language, culture and identity, and we need to send a clear message that we value and recognise Wales's BSL signing community.

I thank the positive and supportive comments from Altaf Hussain, Sioned Williams, Julie Morgan, Jane Dodds, Laura Anne Jones and Rhys ab Owen. Sioned, you put a particular question to me about having a panel of deaf signers involved in the appointment of the BSL adviser. I see huge merit in that. In fact, I'd be very concerned if that wasn't the case.

The bottom line is that this is a framework Bill, and it will be the next Welsh Government and the next Senedd who will have to decide to resource the delivery needed, to monitor and evaluate the implementation of the Bill. I think it was you also, Sioned, who said, rightly, that this Bill is just the start of making the change needed. But it's a vital start. We've turned the engine on. We now need the feet on the accelerator to take it forward. If you feel more amendments are needed at Stage 2, that's down to you at Stage 2 in the ESJ committee. I won't comment at this stage. You've heard what I'm going to be doing.

I'll conclude by saying this isn't just my Bill. This is the Bill of the BSL community. It was they who raised it with me, as I've indicated in speeches before, initially in north Wales seven years ago following the Scottish legislation, and very strongly here in south Wales also since. Thank you for being consistent in expressing your need to me, but also consistent in your support and ensuring that colleagues and I better understand why you need this and what this actually involves. So, diolch yn fawr, and Nadolig llawen to all of you—i chi i gyd.

Move. 

I'm concerned that the motion talks almost exclusively about play areas and play equipment, but we know most children want to play outdoors, they want to play in their streets, they want to play on pavements, so the provision of play areas, not just cordoned-off areas with play equipment, is critical. So, things like quality paths for walking and cycling, lower speed so people can play in the streets are a key part of this agenda, but your motion seems to ignore that.

No. That's a very good point, Lee Waters, and, of course, you could have given an amendment to my motion, I imagine. Of course, maybe next term now, you could make a similar motion on that point. No, I agree with what you're saying, but of course the motion was just concentrating on parks from my own experience, but I accept the point you make; it's a point well made.

Of course I will, Carolyn.

Just on that point: I think communities should have a play provision, but when I was on the planning committee, if so many houses were built—I can't remember how many, but it wasn't many—they should provide a green space for play. And at the time, it was with a commuted sum of money, £20,000 for 10 years' play to cover maintenance. But as things developed, developers used to push back on that. But do you believe that that is something that we should reintroduce and try and legislate for, so that it should happen?

Certainly. That's a very good point, Carolyn. I think we will all know, and especially those representing more urban areas will be able to give you examples of developments—large developments—where that has not happened. Where even the money that was given to a green space or a play area has not been used for that effect.

Can I please take this opportunity to thank Rhys ab Owen for bringing this important debate forward in the Chamber today? Without a doubt, ensuring children have access to play is of paramount importance. It is so much more than just messing around with friends. Playgrounds are the springboard for our future generations, where they can develop their social and emotional skills, build their confidence, and, of course, improve physical and mental well-being.

Yet, despite their importance, play areas and playgrounds are often overlooked and forgotten about, with repairs and maintenance kicked into the long grass. One 13-year-old girl from Caerphilly said, and I quote,

'Due to anti-social behaviour our equipment gets broken, burnt and vandalised and is then not replaced. Lot of rubbish, glass, spray cans are around the village and play areas—regular cleans are needed.'

So, it's clear more needs to be done when it comes to ensuring that playgrounds are there, and that they are indeed usable by the community at large. I also read what children said about play in the Wales report with great interest, and I was quite taken aback to discover that 28 per cent of children and teenagers have hardly ever played outside in a park.

Issues with outdated and broken play equipment were identified in the report, as were safety concerns, with smashed glass and damaged play structures being a common feature. Another apparent reason children do not play outdoors is because they are simply not allowed to go outside on their own. There's a myriad of factors behind why they can't go out alone, but parents often feel too fearful to let them go out because of safety concerns.

A 12-year-old from Newport told the 'What children say about play in Wales: 2025' report that she was not allowed to go outside without an adult because the area is not safe. Another child from the city, this one aged 14, cited drug dealing in the immediate area as a reason why she wasn't allowed out, adding that they're too afraid to play outside. That's a really sad reflection of how society is today, and I believe that the Government, as well as a range of key stakeholders, should look into this going further, as it should not be preventing our young people from accessing play.

I just want to touch on asks for play for disabled children. I know Rhys ab Owen touched upon this in his introduction, but I was truly stunned, Deputy Presiding Officer, to hear that only 11 per cent of playgrounds are classed as 'green', meaning accessible and inclusive, with 47 per cent rated 'red', meaning poor accessibility. Deputy Presiding Officer, 30 per cent of playgrounds have no accessible paths leading to them, and 18 per cent of playground gates are not wide enough for a wheelchair. Those are just two of the barriers preventing disabled children from accessing play, and I really do welcome any additional funding from the Welsh Government to refurbish playgrounds and purchase inclusive equipment. I really hope that this cash boost will go a long way in transforming play for disabled children, but I would really like to know from the Minister today how the Government is going to ensure local authorities actually deliver this.

Deputy Presiding Officer, access to play is so much more than just playgrounds in a local community. It is about giving children a chance to get outside and literally run wild. In my region, we are very lucky to have some truly amazing places for children to get outdoors and explore, including Tredegar House, Caerphilly mountain, the woods surrounding Ruperra castle, Belle Vue Park, and, not without its challenges, Newport splash park as well. These are just some of the areas where I spent many of my childhood days, and I’m sure many Members in this Chamber this afternoon have memories of similar places that they frequented when they were younger.

Getting out and about in the fresh air can be a real tonic, and that’s why I think the Government's decision to shoot down my colleague Sam Rowlands's Bill on outdoor education is a particularly bitter pill to swallow. Sam’s Bill would have ensured that young people have access to a week-long outdoor residential education experience, which would have led to improved physical health and well-being, alongside better personal and social learning as well. It’s a great shame that this Bill was spiked, and I feel that the Government certainly has missed a trick there.

In closing, Deputy Presiding Officer, there’s a lot more to do when it comes to ensuring that our children and young people have access to play, and I’m really pleased to say that I will be supporting Rhys ab Owen's motion today. Thank you so much.

I was one of the co-authors, and I certainly will be supporting it. Play is important for children, both for their education and well-being. Wales can be proud to be the first country in the world to legislate for children's right to play. Wales is seen, internationally, as a leading nation in play. Play has featured in recent UK Parliament debates, with rising awareness and support for play sufficiency legislation in England as they try to catch up with us. The Welsh Government has continued to invest in playgrounds, play spaces, and the Playworks holiday project. Local authorities have a play sufficiency duty, a statutory duty to assess and, as far as would be reasonably practicable, secure sufficient opportunities for children to play in their areas.

Swansea's play sufficiency assessment outlines the work they have done in helping those who may need support to access play, providing adequate spaces for children to play, providing sufficient supervised provision, providing access to sufficient play free of charge, securing and developing the play workforce, and engaging with the public on play. A large number of new playgrounds and equipment, suitable for children of all ages, have either been created or refurbished in Swansea, some funded by Swansea Council, some partly or fully funded by community councils, and some funded by community organisations such as Clase for All, who've had lottery funding.

Thousands of youngsters in communities across Swansea are benefiting from the major investment in the city's play infrastructure, as Swansea Council has committed to upgrading more than 60 community play areas. The upgrades are part of the council's ongoing commitment to investing in free play areas, which has seen the council agree to a further £1 million for them in the coming year, bringing the total investment so far to £8 million.

Just look at one of the developments in Brynmelyn Park in Waun Wen, where the upgrades have been designed to cater for both teenagers and infants, which is very important, because sometimes you have a very young children's play area or you have an older children's play area, but not a play area for both of them. The teenage area now boasts a combination basket and flat-seat swing, a junior multiplay unit with high and low play features, and an above-ground carousel. The infant area includes an infant multiplay unit, two bay swings with a disabled seat, a 'you and me' seat and two cradle seats, a four-person see-saw, a trampoline with drainage incorporated, and a springer.

We always need to make sure that play equipment is available for those who have disabilities, making sure they can get in, making sure that the equipment is capable for them to use. Will the Minister congratulate Swansea Council on the importance it attaches to play and its investment in new play equipment? Can I ask the Minister to come and visit some of them in the new year? I'd ask her to visit all of them, but it would probably take her the best part of two weeks.

Other investments that have been taking place are in multi-use games areas, more commonly known as MUGAs, which have been created or updated in several parks and are incredibly popular with older children. In Morriston park, something as simple as a set of goalposts and basketball hoops have been set up and made the park much more attractive to children, and they get used. We have seen the development of 3G and 4G sports pitches, allowing children to play after heavy rain. We need more of them, but the developments that have been created are very welcome. Short zip wires in parks have proven very popular with children, and have not led to any accidents.

Finally, we need to get children to realise that play outside with others is both enjoyable and good for them, and reduce their use of electronic equipment for play. Play is not a solitary activity. It is not something you do in your bedroom. It is something you do outside with others. I very much support this being put forward by Rhys ab Owen.

I was a co-sponsor of the motion, and I'm grateful to Rhys for bringing this to the Senedd. We know that play is not a luxury for children—it is fundamental to their happiness, their health and their development. Over the past year, I've been lucky enough to work with colleagues from across the Siambr and with passionate organisations, through the cross-party groups on children and young people, to develop Bil pob plentyn, every child's Bill. Within that Bill, we call for a strengthened statutory right to play, with a statutory duty on public authorities to secure those services in line with national best practice.

There are thousands of children and young people losing safe spaces to play, to socialise, to simply be children. Like others who've spoken, I'd like to hear specifically from the Minister on the issue around access for disabled children to be able to play. To hear that 37 per cent of disabled children in Wales say they never or hardly ever play outside should be a figure to stop us all in our tracks. We need to ensure that all of our facilities are planned with them and are focused on them. It is essential that we are an inclusive Senedd.

I also want us to consider teenagers and older children, as sometimes we act as though play provision stops at age 12. Older children and young people don't just need spaces where they can hang out; they need places where they can actually play, be active, socialise and develop. The devastating evidence speaks for itself. We lost 62 per cent of our youth centres between 2010 and 2024. The number of children accessing youth clubs has fallen from 10 per cent in 2019 to 7 per cent. No wonder young people feel like they don't have a place in their own communities. A fenced playground built for younger children does not meet the needs of a 15-year-old, a disabled child or a mixed-age community. We need to plan better with children and young people, and specifically with disabled children too.

I want to finally mention the importance of strengthening the right to play, as we've heard. When section 11 of the Children and Families (Wales) Measure 2010 was introduced, with the play sufficiency duty, it was genuinely groundbreaking. But over a decade on, we must ask whether it is still fit for purpose. Play does not only happen in council parks; it is shaped by town and community councils, by our national parks, by public health decisions and by planning and transport policy, as we've heard. If play cuts across all of these areas—and it does—then responsibility for securing it cannot just rest with local authorities.

That is why Bil pob plentyn proposes broadening the play sufficiency duty, so that all public bodies whose decisions shape children's environments share that responsibility. This is about strategic planning, not blame, and about designing communities that work for children, with children, from the outset. It is also a reason why the Bill calls for a Cabinet Secretary for babies, children and young people, with real cross-cutting authority. The ministerial review acknowledges the need for collaboration across Government, but acknowledgement without structural change is not enough.

To finish, we were the first to legislate for children's right to play. Let's now be the first to truly deliver on that promise. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I'm very pleased to contribute to this debate, and I thank Rhys for bringing this forward. I'm very pleased to support his motion.

As Jane said, play is not a luxury; it is a fundamental right. It's how children learn, build confidence, form friendships and understand the world around them. The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child makes this clear, and Wales has been proud to lead the way in recognising children's rights.

I'm also very pleased that Cardiff is recognised as a UNICEF child-friendly city, as I represent a bit of Cardiff, as Rhys does. I think that this is a very important recognition, because you do actually have to reach certain standards to be recognised as a child-friendly city, and one of them, of course, is the involvement of children in decision making and in seeing that the provision that we have is what they want. 

Jane mentioned youth provision. It has been devastating, the way that, over many years, youth provision has been decimated. But now it's coming back, thanks to the Welsh Government putting money in to local authorities for this reason. Certainly in Cardiff, we've got a number of youth clubs that have now started, which are absolutely crucial, I think, for open access, places for children and young people to go, and to have adults they can talk to. I think it's great that that is happening here in Cardiff. 

The fact that we're the first nation in the world to pass a law about opportunities to play has already been mentioned. I think that that was a bold thing to do. That does put the obligation on us to create places where children can play, where they can play freely and safely, and that they can play close to home. I'd like to pay tribute to the great organisations that are involved in play. Play Wales, I think, has pioneered play, and I think it's so important that we do support them as a Government and that we continue to support them. Because we know that children do face barriers to play, with a lack of green spaces. We've already talked about inequality of access.

I think that, if we're serious about children's rights, we've got to make sure that it is embedded in every bit of policy. Those are the policies like planning and housing. We've already heard today about new houses being built and the spaces are not there. They don't have to be particular designed play areas for children, but there should be open space where children can be free to use their own imagination and create their own places. Those are all decisions that are made when we're planning. Obviously, the transport system is crucial, and also the decisions that are made in the community are crucial. 

We've already heard about disabled children. I think that there has got to be an initiative there to create inclusive play areas. Good design must take into account the views of children, but also the views of the community, because we know that many play areas and much of the play provision is developed by the community. I also commend play streets. I know that we've got a number of those in Cardiff, where the traffic is restricted so that children can play in those streets. I'd like to pay tribute to a community group in the Heath area in my constituency of Cardiff North who are campaigning to redevelop and redesign an area in Heath park that is particularly for children. I think that having the community involved is going to make sure that those areas are what children and families want. 

Investing in play is investing in children, it's investing in communities, and it shows children that they are valued in our community. They are most important people in our society, and we must work to ensure that they've got facilities to develop themselves, which is what play gives them. Diolch.

First, I declare an interest—I'm not sure if I have to—as a trustee for Usk park and Usk Pump Track Club.

Thank you, first—diolch—to the Member, Rhys ab Owen, for bringing this forward to the Senedd today. This debate matters, because play is not just about leisure, it's where physical activity starts, where confidence is built and where many children first discover that love for sport and physical exercise. As the chair of the cross-party group on sport, I and the CPG have seen very clearly the link between access to play when children are young and participation in sport in later life. If children are not moving, climbing, running and playing outdoors, they are far less likely to join teams, use facilities or stay active as teenagers or adults.

That is why the findings in the Play Wales report should concern us all, but it certainly doesn't surprise me. Parks and sporting facilities in general have been at the bottom of the Government's list of priorities for decades. Falling satisfaction, outdated and broken equipment and a lack of provision for older children point to a system that is not keeping up with children's needs. The report also shows that overall satisfaction with opportunities to play has fallen from 84 per cent in 2019 to just 71 per cent today, which should be a wake-up call for us all. Too often, we talk about new strategies and rights, but families tell us a much simpler story: the playground is there, but it is closed; the equipment is there, but it is broken; the space exists, but it is not suitable for older children, disabled children or those who simply want to be somewhere safe to be active. This is particularly acute in rural and semi-rural areas. Space alone does not equal access. Distance, transports, poor maintenance and lack of inclusive design can make facilities effectively unsuitable, especially for disabled children and families without cars. This is also a wider inequality issue. Some communities benefit from modern multi-use games areas, school sports facilities and 3G pitches that are available beyond school hours. Many, sadly, do not, particularly in rural areas where an investment in all-weather facilities in particular is vital.

That uneven access directly affects children's chances to be active and engaged with sport. This is exactly the issue that has come up time and time again with the cross-party group on sport, where we hear about facilities ageing, access shrinking and communities being asked to do more with less.

When Reform are in Government next May, we will be far more ambitious with opening up school facilities, investing in durable multi-use spaces and supporting community groups who are trying to keep local play areas alive with limited resources. Our teenagers are crying out for outdoor gyms in parks and pump tracks. We need to work with children for children, as has already been said—it's very important. Something that we certainly did was engage with the community and the children in that community when developing a local park in my community.

Nearly one in three children in Wales are now overweight or obese. The Welsh Government promised prevention through investment in physical activity and sports facilities, but instead we've seen closures, decay, shrinking access, leaving children with fewer chances to be active, not more, and more chance of being obese. If we are serious about prevention, about tackling obesity, about mental health and about giving every child a fair start, then access to play must be treated as essential infrastructure, not an optional extra when budgets allow.

I will support any approach that focuses on practical delivery, proper maintenance and fair access for all children, wherever they live. I fully support what the Member, Rhys ap Owen, is proposing today. Diolch.

First of all, I'd like to thank Rhys ab Owen for bringing the motion forward.

Every child has a right to play and access to green spaces and play areas. They should be able to walk there as well and not have to be taken by a car. That way, they learn independence. They are also great places for families. It means that families can get to know each other, and it builds strong communities and combats social isolation as well for young mums and parents.

In my area, we also had summer play schemes in the play parks, and it meant that the children would meet up in the park at a certain time and they'd be led by play leaders who would then go on to possibly have a career in education, working with young people, or as youth leaders. It meant that once they were out in the play area, they would stay out, then, and carry on playing together, which was really great. And some young people who didn't have holidays, that would be their holiday for the year, actually meeting up in the local play area at a certain time, led by a play leader, and playing out all day. That was their holiday for a few weeks, it felt like. I know we had to plan our holidays camping, so it didn't clash with the play scheme.

As I said earlier, my journey into politics began because the roundabout from the play area across the road got removed and my children were really disappointed, so I asked the community council if they would fund a new one, and they said they couldn't afford it. It cost about £7,000, which is quite a shocking amount, really, even then, but to replace it and install it did cost a lot of money. So, when I became a county councillor, I set up a match-funding scheme so that the county council would match-fund a piece of equipment with the community council, to make it more affordable.

We set up a task and finish group and marked play areas or scored them red, amber, green, and the ones that were scored red had funding first, if that was available. Then, over the following 12 years, all 172 play areas in Flintshire were renovated. Originally, they wanted to rationalise them, because they said they couldn't afford that many, but, at least by doing that, they were saved. We also used 106 money from planning—I think it was if there were more than two or three houses, they had to pay a committed sum for an existing play area, but over I think it was 15, they had to have a green space within that development, which worked really well.

All play areas were designed in consultation with young people. That was really important, because in some areas we actually put pods in as well. So, when the parents complained about pods and teenagers hanging around in the parks, we'd say, 'Well, actually, this was in consultation with your child.'

They were also really important places for grass-roots sports. So, we talked about the multi-use games areas for people to go and play basketball, to go out and shoot a few hoops, and then more come along, football as well, and in the play area by me, we built a BMX pump track as well, which has been really popular, to develop cycling skills in a safe place.

Wales was the first country to legislate the right to play, and local authorities have a play sufficiency duty. I like the idea that was being proposed by Jane Dodds and the group that you've been working with about involving all public authorities. I think that's a really good suggestion, going forward.

Welsh Government has supported Play Wales, which has been really good in driving play for young people, working with local authorities. We have the well-being of future generations Act in Wales, and our children are our future. We have to invest in them, give them a voice, and I support this proposal put forward.

I'm pleased to speak in this debate today as a co-submitter of this debate and motion, and can I thank Rhys ab Owen for bringing forward this debate today and working on this as he has? From my perspective, we know how important it is to tackle health inequalities, but also we know that out of the four UK nations, Wales has the greatest obesity levels, sadly. We also know that across Europe, the UK is amongst the highest countries when it comes to childhood obesity. So, if there's any reason for the Government today and the next Government to support any strengthening of legislation in regards to local authorities, ensuring that every community has access to play areas, then this should be it, because we know, so importantly, how childhood obesity and play and physical activity are linked together.

I was struck by Carolyn Thomas as well, who mentioned in an earlier intervention—I think others have mentioned as well—planning gain, and this is important, because, so often, as part of those planning applications, planning gain is put in, and there's a requirement on the developer, then, to bring forward an open space or a play area. But we know so often—and I know from my own experience through casework—that the developer doesn't then put into practice what has been required through the planning permission. Sometimes, 10 years go by, and I've got constituents who are still chasing the local authority to ensure that the developer commits to what they agreed when the planning permission was agreed. Sometimes, of course, the developer goes into administration as well.

So, I think in any kind of strengthening of legislation or regulation, this also has to be considered to ensure that that money is set aside, if you like, to ensure that local communities are not forgotten about due to planning gain through planning applications.

Also, another plea I have as well in this debate is so often any grant funding is often linked to new play areas. But so often we look around and we see play areas that are just in disrepair. They just look shabby. I like to think they're safe, but they don't look good at all. They don't look appealing. Sometimes, new grant funding isn't necessarily needed for a new play area, it just needs to have an uplift of an existing play area. So, I think this is something also to be considered as well, when we think about any requirements needed for supporting new play areas. Let's look at increasing what we've already got and making sure that they're good and safe areas as well, and appealing for children to go and play as well. Diolch, Llywydd.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thanks to all those Members who tabled this motion today and to those who contributed to the debate.

As we head referred to in the motion and by many Members in the debate today, Wales was, of course, the first country in the world to legislate for the children's right to play, under section 11 of the Children and Families (Wales) Measure 2010, and we should be rightly proud that Wales continues to lead the way in championing children's right to play.

Our play sufficiency duty makes it a legal requirement for every local authority in Wales to assess and secure sufficient opportunities to play. It was good to hear from Mike Hedges about the positive provisions in Swansea, and I certainly do congratulate Swansea, Mike, on that. And I'd be delighted to visit at some point. And there are many other similar examples of excellent facilities across Wales. Julie Morgan mentioned Heath park in her constituency, and I can point to several fantastic play areas and parks in my own constituency as well.

But since legislating in support of children's play, we've continued to work closely with local authorities and Play Wales to support the implementation of the duties. In 2019 we began an in-depth and collaborative view of our play vision and aims. The ministerial review of play steering group report, published in 2023, made key recommendations for Welsh Government and we published a progress report earlier this year on actions being taken forward and our continued ambition to improve opportunities for play for all children in Wales. We've published an animation and child-friendly version of the progress report, which highlights the importance of the powerful impact that playing has on children's well-being and development, which was noted by a number of contributors to the debate today.

Now, Wales has many wonderful play opportunities for children across the country and we continue to build on the progress made and focus on working collaboratively to reach the aims of the review of play. As was also noted in the debate, Cardiff Council's status as the UK's first UNICEF accredited child-friendly city is a testament to that local authority's commitment to children's rights and well-being, and it shouldn't be dismissed or trivialised. It is not easy to achieve, as Julie Morgan pointed out—there are rigorous standards that have to be met. But children are absolutely at the heart of our legislation, our policies and our guidance for local authorities to promote children's right to play and support our shared vision for the whole of Wales to be play friendly.

And while I welcome the motion before us and the cross-party support that it has attracted, as Members rightly pointed out, play is vital to children's health, happiness and development. And can I say, in relation to points 2, 3 and 4 of the motion, how much I value hearing children's voices mentioned within the Play Wales report? We also recognise the importance of accessible and inclusive play, and for many children, play areas with swings, slides and equipment are important places, but are by no means the only types of play areas that children like to play in.

Like other Members who've contributed today, I was also disappointed to learn that there has been a decline in the percentage of children who are satisfied with their opportunities to play and the percentage of children noting that they are not permitted to play independently, and we will look at this further, alongside the 'State of Play' report 2025 that is going to be published early next year to help identify the trends and the key issues that have been noted by local authorities within their play sufficiency plans.

Now, Welsh Government commissioned the Play Wales report to capture those children's views gathered by local authorities as part of their play sufficiency assessments, and I've been encouraged by some of the rich conversations held with children and young people. As always, there are some positive and negative views for us to consider, but we should note that that £5 million that was invested in this financial year to improve the quality of play spaces and playgrounds has been vitally important to local authorities in both providing new and improving the existing facilities. It will address some of the concerns for children about the spaces that they play in. But this capital funding is in addition to the ongoing investment to support local authorities to action their play sufficiency duties. This year, we've supported local authorities in addressing gaps in sufficiency and taking forward action plans, and, as Lee Waters and Mike Hedges both pointed out, this also includes open spaces not necessarily designated as parks or play areas. We're also increasing opportunities to play during the school holidays, with £1 million per annum to deliver the Playworks holiday project, providing children with free to low-cost play activities.

With regard to point 5 of the motion, we have refreshed statutory guidance and provided a toolkit to local authorities, ensuring a holistic outcome-focused approach, one that is intentionally broad, not limited to playgrounds alone, and can respond to the feedback from children and young people. But, to address the concerns about access for disabled children, the toolkit contains resources to support local authorities in creating inclusive and accessible play opportunities for them.

The play sufficiency duty requires local authorities to secure sufficient play opportunities for all children within their local areas, with time, available spaces and permission to play being pivotal factors in creating play-friendly communities. So, we ask local authorities to publicise comprehensive information about all play opportunities and events for children in their areas. In addition, the Welsh Government website for parents, Teulu Cymru, has supported Play Wales to promote the Playful Childhoods Wales campaign.

Importantly, with the support of Play Wales, we've established play representatives on all regional partnership boards to ensure that play is considered in the wider local authority strategic planning. To support a play-friendly society that offers a wide range of play and recreational opportunities, our statutory guidance asks local authorities to work collaboratively with all its relevant partners in the planning and delivery of play opportunities. The local authority must offer play opportunities that are inclusive and accessible and encourage all children to play and meet together if they wish.

As I said earlier, we await the publication of the state of play report by Play Wales in the new year, on their analysis of play sufficiency assessments, which will include a focus on neighbourhood planning and inclusive play opportunities. The report will help us to consider how we can continue to make progress and lead the way in championing children's play and pick up many of the points raised in contributions today, especially from Members like Jane Dodds, who have championed this for so long.

In closing, I'd just like to thank Members for their commitment to children's play. Together, we can ensure that every child in Wales has the time, the space and the permission to play now and for generations to come. Diolch yn fawr.

Mike gave examples of excellent work in Swansea—the upgrade of 60 playgrounds. And I'm pleased that you've managed to achieve a visit from the Minister to some of the Swansea playgrounds; I'm sure she'll look forward to that in the new year.

Jane mentioned that play is not a luxury, but it's a fundamental right, and Julie went on to mention and to highlight again that Wales has led the way with children's rights. Both Julie and Jane mentioned the cuts in the past years to youth provision, but Julie mentioned some excellent examples of new centres opening. And it's good that you mentioned Play Streets—a point that Lee Waters made in his intervention.

Laura mentioned that space does not equal access, and that's certainly my experience. I remember my grandparents living in a rural area, but all the fields were fenced off. So, if you wanted to go and play in a field, you had to climb over a hedge or a fence.

Carolyn, you mentioned, and it struck me, the importance of independence and communities when it comes to parks, and that is true. I think probably the first place I went alone to was to the park, and then, in later life, I've met many families through our children playing in the park and then we'd go off somewhere together afterwards. So, it's very important. Parks are very important for independence and communities.

Russ, you mentioned health struggles, and I think this is something I tried to mention at the end of my contribution. We hear on a weekly basis in this place about the health inequalities, the health problems, Wales faces. I know Jenny Rathbone is a huge advocate of prevention when it comes to health problems, and playing, and playing at a young age, is crucial for that, because, if you play sport and if you're active at a young age, you're likely to continue in later years.

Minister, thank you. You highlighted successes, but you also admitted the challenges and said that you would give serious consideration to the challenges raised. And of course the debate wouldn't have happened if the Welsh Government hadn't commissioned the report in the first place and actually asked for the voices of the young people, and so I’m grateful for that, and we've heard the experiences of young people.

I will begin with a quote.

'Devolution is a process. It is not an event and neither is it a journey with a fixed end-point. The devolution process is enabling us to make our own decisions and set our own priorities, that is the important point.'

Now, we know who said those words, of course; they've been repeated many, many times. And it would be reasonable, would it not, for those words by Ron Davies, published in a pamphlet ahead of the first elections to the new National Assembly for Wales in 1999, to hold true today. They were spoken by a Labour Secretary of State for Wales. It is a post that Labour have now inherited once again. And from executive devolution to primary law-making powers and now a reserved powers model of devolution, we have indeed seen the process play out. It has lilted along through the best part of three decades now, dancing incrementally, sometimes awkwardly, to the beat of considered opinion, from the Richard commission to the Silk commission to the more recent Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales. And at every turn, the people of Wales have decided the next move, either through referenda or mandating a Government to act on their behalf. They have been milestones of constitutional consequence, yes, but, crucially, they've had practical effect each time: powers for a purpose, supported by the people of Wales so they can benefit our communities.

And now that will of the electorate is being flagrantly ignored, at best—and I'm being kind here—by inertia in Gwydyr House, the Wales Office on Whitehall, and, at worst, a conscious and concerted attempt by the UK Labour Government, just like the Tories before them, to deny Wales its constitutional rights. Or, as a third of the Labour benches in this Senedd put in that letter to Keir Starmer last week, a 'rolling back' on the existing devolution settlement.

In its final report,

In its final report, the independent commission on the constitutional future of Wales also said what is now being implied by signatories to that Labour letter. This is what the commission said:

'The effective conduct of relations between the four governments of the UK is too important to be left to the discretion of individual ministers. The only basis for successful relations is parity of esteem...At times the UK government seems to see good relations as an optional extra; they are not.' 

That's what the commission said.

Now, for balance—and we should always seek that—this isn't a new phenomenon. As I said, the Tories also did what Labour are doing now and the irony isn't lost on me that the previous Conservative Secretary of State for Wales now heads up Darren Millar's back office here in the Senedd, and, no doubt, played a part in writing the Tory amendment today that defends the contemptuous attitude of successive UK Governments, red and blue, towards Wales.

But his successor, Jo Stevens, I think displays a particular dislike towards standing up for what is rightfully ours. In opposition, we remember, don't we, she stood at the dispatch box in the House of Commons and told the world that £4 billion of HS2 consequentials were ours. But in office, tumbleweed, nothing. She sits at the Cabinet table which signs off on pretty preposterous decisions, like designating a train line between Oxford and Cambridge as an England and Wales project, saying nothing, doing nothing, standing for nothing.

Now as a member of Labour in Wales, we can presume, or should be able to presume, that she, in the name of collective duty, would also be signed up to the party's policy in Wales on something like devolving the Crown Estate. Yet she is actively speaking out and campaigning against it. And now we learn that the UK Government is bypassing devolution altogether with its Pride in Place funding, withholding the same pot of money, the exact same to Wales, which is within the control of the Northern Ireland Executive, all in the name of expediency, say Welsh Ministers, a way to get things done quicker. Either because Jo Stevens and Keir Starmer don't trust the Labour Welsh Government to get things done any more, or because they don't believe things should be done here in Wales. Either way, it is all done, say these benches, to undermine devolution. And that is the end result.

The list of examples is endless. I could go on. I can sense that the Tories will be losing interest at this point, because what gets them excited and what's in Wales's interests have rarely overlapped. But I know Labour Members will recognise that what I am saying is true, as difficult as it is for some of them to say it publicly. But I say to them: search deeply within yourselves and ask whether Ron Davies's promise of process, not an event, rings true today. And you couldn't, with a straight face, I don't think, answer in the affirmative.

Indeed, it appears as if the much-vaunted respect agenda between the Welsh and UK Governments only works one way. Westminster will do what it wants. Wales will do as it is told. The First Minister loves reminding us 

The First Minister loves reminding us of how she has a direct line to No. 10. Although Keir Starmer's abject lack of delivery for Wales or interest in Wales suggests she spends most of her time on hold. But worse still, she seems to think that a UK Labour Prime Minister will only pick up the phone to a Labour First Minister in Wales. Isn't it the case that any UK Prime Minister of any political party should be willing to engage respectfully and constructively with a Welsh First Minister of any party and, indeed, vice versa? I want to have that constructive relationship. To suggest otherwise, that a Labour Prime Minister will only speak to a Labour First Minister here, smacks of a deep disrespect towards Wales, unless it is a Wales of the same political colour. A Government has to be very, very aware of appearing arrogant or entitled, because those kinds of attributes are almost certain to be harmful to the health of our democracy.

The Sewel convention is just that—a convention—a loose agreement of considerable limitations. Isn't it time we had a Sewel constitution, if you like, a legally binding, new statutory formulation of the Sewel convention, which should apply both to legislation in relation to devolved matters, and explicitly to legislation affecting the status or powers of the devolved legislatures and Executives? As recommended by Gordon Brown's commission on the UK's future, as pledged in the 2024 Labour manifesto, which spoke of strengthening the Sewel convention, but seemingly gathering dust in Labour's bookcase of broken promises.

I will end, Llywydd, by returning to the motion and reminding us of that letter reflected in our motion today—the letter from Labour backbenchers here to the UK Labour Prime Minister. And I'll say this: we didn't fight for a Senedd of our own so that we could articulate views by letter alone. We didn't fight for a Senedd of our own to say one thing on paper, only to recoil from those very sentiments in our nation's democratic Chamber. We didn't fight for a Senedd of our own to create a Chamber as a platform to display a lack of moral courage. We fought for this Senedd for the opportunity to put words into effect. Party loyalty of course runs deep in all of us, but our loyalty to Wales must always come first, and we can all demonstrate that today by backing Plaid Cymru's motion.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm pleased to move the amendment, tabled in the name of my colleague Paul Davies. And here we are again, isn't it? Another Wednesday afternoon, another Plaid Cymru motion where they're outraged about something else. And let me be absolutely clear from the outset: consistent arguments about the devolution settlement are not only tiring, they are actively distracting us from the serious challenges that the people of Wales face. While politicians in this Chamber argue over powers, structures and the constitution, hard-working people across Wales are asking a fair and simple question: what has the devolution of powers here actually delivered for me? After more than two decades of devolution, the Welsh Government already has extensive powers. The problem is not a lack of powers, the problem is a lack of results from the Labour Government in Cathays Park. People are losing faith in devolution because they see a tired Welsh Labour Government, propped up by the separatists in Plaid Cymru, that is pushing their left-wing extreme socialist agenda onto our communities. And people in Wales are getting more and more frustrated, and that frustration is turning to disillusionment with this Senedd, with Welsh politics, and with the entire devolution settlement itself.

Today's motion follows a letter sent to the Prime Minister earlier from Members of the Labour group. In that letter, Labour Members criticise their Westminster colleagues for directly funding Welsh councils, presenting this as some sort of constitutional offence. But the truth—[Interruption.] I'll finish this point, Jenny, and I will. But the truth is this: there is nothing wrong with funding going directly to those who can do the most. Local authorities know their community far better than Ministers do

far better than Ministers do in Cathays Park.

I agree, there's absolutely nothing wrong with money going directly to local authorities. That isn't—

There you are; thank you for agreeing with my point.

No, no, not at all. Let me finish. But what is not right is that the money that is being sent through Pride in Place, they're being told it can only be spent on one community, pitting one deprived area from another. Instead, the Welsh Government—. Had the money that was originally supposed to have come in the local growth fund—. It was top-sliced from that. That would have led to dialogue with local authorities to identify the best way of spending that money across the communities it represented. So, that is why this is so devastating, and it is absolutely about the everyday affairs of the people I represent.

Well, Jenny, I don't agree with you. Because when the Welsh Government had shares of European Union funding, they actually sent it into their Welsh Labour heartlands, it didn't benefit most of the people I represent. So, I don't trust this Welsh Labour Government not to do the same again.

But during the COVID-19 pandemic, it was councils, not Ministers here, who proved just how quickly and effectively they could respond when empowered to act and deliver. And I've said it many times before—and Plaid Cymru need to listen to this—Wales has two Governments; one here and one in Westminster. That's a fact. I know some of you won't like it, but that is the fact of the matter.

And for Senedd Members to dress this situation up as some sort of constitutional outrage may suit well for those who are obsessed with their socialist ideology of taking powers away from local people to centralise it, because in their view, the state always knows best, doesn't it? But we, on these benches, know that that approach does nothing to improve the outcomes for the people we represent. It increases bureaucracy at the centre of Government and delivers nothing for the people.

You actually pinpointed the biggest anomaly in your own contribution there. You say that Wales has two Governments, and that's exactly the problem. That is not normal for an ordinary country, is it?

The mask has slipped. 'We want separatism.' This is the party here—

Says the Brexiteer.

—that wants independence that would pull our country into the gutter. I'll take no lectures from the party who took money from Colonel Gaddafi.

But what matters now is not who controls the money, but whether that money actually delivers results on the ground. And when two Governments work together pragmatically, communities will benefit. Growth deals, city regions, free ports. These are not abstract concepts, they're practical examples of how co-operation produces real results and economic outcomes. And that's where the real focus of our time should be—in delivery for the people and providing value for money for the taxpayers of this country who pay their bills and expect a service in return.

Because when I knock the doors in Brecon and Radnorshire, no-one talks to me about devolving more powers. [Interruption.] You can make an intervention if you want, Alun; I'd love to take one. No-one talks to me about—[Interruption.] I've already taken one from you, Jenny. [Interruption.] Go on, then. Why not? I'm enjoying this.

Of course they knock the doors. They want to have resolved the issues that are facing them, whether it's schools, the roads, the lighting, the litter, the crime—all these things are really important. And what this Pride in Place is doing is ensuring that the money has to go to one community rather than the four or five most deprived communities.

But, Jenny, you've just highlighted, haven't you, 27 years of failure? Because what they tell me is that Wales is broken—a broken health service, broken education, broken farmers who feel neglected and a broken economy. But the biggest issue they tell me on a day-to-day basis is that they're fed up with this Labour Government and their old bedfellows Plaid Cymru, who are presenting themselves as something different, but I can assure the people of Wales, they are nothing different, they're Labour, but worse.

So, as I've said, Llywydd, today's debate offers no solutions to the real problems—. [Interruption.] You can make an intervention, Rhun, if you want to. The debate offers no real solutions to the problems facing Welsh communities. Instead, it reinforces the growing perception of politicians in this place talking about politics when ordinary, hard-working people are left to pick up the pieces day in, day out. Labour have failed and, as I've said, soon enough, the mask of the separatists over there will slip as well. Wales deserves better than this. It deserves a change of Government; it deserves a Conservative Government. And for that reason, I urge Members to support our motion.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. This is a debate we've needed for some time. What is interesting is that Reform do not appear to have any interest in it,

to have any interest in it, though they seem very keen on being the next Government. Where does devolution end? Well, I don't agree with Ron Davies, who became a member of Plaid Cymru, that it was a process, because Plaid Cymru's policy is one of salami-slicing to independence. Summed up by, 'devolve, devolve and devolve' until there's nothing left to devolve. Please ignore that Wales is financially a net beneficiary of the union. Wales is a net beneficiary of the union. David Phillips of the IFS has estimated that it is a net beneficiary of the union of between £12 billion and £15 billion a year. If Wales keeps its revenue, funds its own public spending, and then makes a population-based contribution to the UK-wide situation, at least as it stands, that would lead to a large fiscal deficit for Wales. Also according to David Phillips of the IFS, the most recent estimates from ONS suggest public expenditure in Wales is about 10 per cent higher than it is across the UK as a whole. This, despite raising substantially less money.

We also know small countries do not have the economic strengths to weather financial storms. The Icelandic financial crisis was a major economic and political event in Iceland between 2008 and 2010. It involved the default of all three of the country's major privately owned commercial banks in late 2008, following problems in refinancing their short-term debt and a run on deposits in the Netherlands and the UK. Relative to the size of the economy, Iceland's systemic banking collapse was the largest in any country in economic history. This crisis led to a severe recession and the 2009 Icelandic financial crisis. We also know that Britain survived the banking crisis.

The Conservative policy, that's fairly straightforward: this is the end of the devolution journey. Even opposing the devolution of policing, although it had already been devolved to some English mayors, as well as Scotland and Northern Ireland.

We have had several devolution settlements of Wales, and we are no closer to a long-term settlement than we were before the first. In the UK, we've seen different devolution settlements for Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland, as well as different responsibilities devolved to London and some of the larger English cities. We have what is meant to be a reserved-powers model in Wales following the most recent settlement, but the host of reservations within the supposed devolved areas makes a mockery of such a definition.

On leaving the European Union, it is now a battle to get devolved to Wales those powers being repatriated to Britain, which are in wholly devolved areas. If the settlement had been a comprehensive reserved-powers model, then this would—[Interruption.]

Would you allow me to intervene?

Please.

Would you allow me to intervene?

Yes, certainly. Sorry.

I'm following your speech with interest, as ever. [Laughter.] In relation to your point about small nations, given what you've said, why do you think that Iceland has the fifth highest GDP per capita in the world, considerably higher than the UK, or indeed Wales?

Well, I think that we could have a long debate on small countries and larger countries. I think most people accept that the most powerful and economically strong country in the world is the United States of America, which certainly isn't a small country, but I'd be happy to discuss this in a future debate, and if you'd like to bring along a debate in that, I'd be more than happy to take part in it.

Will you take an intervention?

Yes.

Are you aware the United States is spending more money on prisons than it is on education? That's a broken country.

I'm discussing the United States' wealth rather than how they spend the money. I think the United States is not a good example of how money is spent, but in terms of wealth, the United States is primary in terms of wealth. If somebody can name another country that is wealthier than the United States of America, let me know, because everything I ever read shows it well ahead of China and the European Union on total.

It's called Imperialism.

We have what is meant to be a reserved-powers model, but we've got a problem with where we are with the reservation.

On leaving the European Union, there's now a new battle to get devolved to Wales those powers being repatriated to Britain, which are in wholly devolved areas. If the settlement had been a comprehensive reserved-powers model, then this would not have arisen and nothing would have been repatriated beyond the current reserve list. Hence why I signed the letter.

There are obvious areas that need to be held centrally, such as defence; foreign affairs; national security; currency; interest rates; overseas aid; immigration; driver and car licensing; the central bank; and national insurance, just to name some. It's all the areas that are devolved. It's called 'independence' rather than 'devolution'. I'm just amazed that Plaid Cymru didn't put forward a resolution for independence. Please—. Were you going to do that, Rhun?

Will you take an intervention?

Yes.

I just wanted to provide the information that you were seeking on which countries are richer than America. I went for GDP per capita: Monaco; Liechtenstein; Luxembourg; Bermuda; Ireland; Switzerland; Iceland—still coming to the United States pretty soon—Cayman Islands; Singapore; Norway; the United States—eighth. There you go.