National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item this afternoon will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, and the first question is from Hannah Blythyn.

Well, through the economic contract, the Welsh Government is helping to ensure that businesses that we support are adopting socially responsible practices. Since 2022, more than 70 businesses have signed up to an economic contract in north Wales, including some major employers with very strong trade union liaison relationships.

I welcome the Welsh Government's commitment to using the levers that we have in Wales to ensure that we do have a just transition and whilst—. I see that the economy Secretary has just come in and whilst I tabled this to the economy Secretary, I recognise that, you don’t have a budget for north Wales, but a keen interest in north Wales matters, as you are the Minister, and obviously, tackling a just transition is a cross-Government action anyway.

We all, of course, very much agree that this is the right thing to be done and in the right way, but it’s important that this is done in the right way, particularly with the workforce and not to it, in order to mitigate negative and potentially distressing consequences. Sadly, we know that’s not always the case, as I’ve witnessed very recently in my own constituency with the announcement that Kimberly-Clark will close two of its mills in Flint, affecting not only 230 Kimberly-Clark employees, but 100 GXO employees too. I know that the Welsh Government did raise concerns with the previous UK Government, prior to the general election, regarding the phasing out of plastic in wet wipes during the consultation period and also that the company’s extremely disappointing decision has pre-empted any regulations actually being enacted. However, I think it does demonstrate that there’s more that we can always do to build on work towards that just transition in practice as well as in principle, and, of course, involving the voice of the workforce through the trade union. So, Cabinet Secretary, can I ask you to update us on any contact perhaps you had during the summer with both the company and the recognised trade union, Unite? And also, can you commit today that the Welsh Government will do all that it can to offer support to all those impacted, including the GXO employees, working closely with the trade union? Diolch.

Yes, absolutely. I’d like to thank the Member for the broad points made about just transitions and also for the specific query regarding Kimberly-Clark. I held a number of meetings over the summer months with various individuals and organisations where the future of the site was discussed. With thanks to our parliamentary friend, the Member of Parliament for Alyn and Deeside, Mark Tami, we have been able to establish direct contact between Kimberly-Clark and a number of other businesses that may be interested in the future of the site. And now that the consultation period has ended, Kimberly-Clark will be able to engage with those interested parties. And my understanding is that they’ll provide further clarity on the future of the site at the end of this year.

I think it’s essential to say that we stand ready to help all workers affected by the announcement, and the Department for Work and Pensions and Careers Wales have been on site. We will be working with the local authority as well to identify opportunities for reskilling the workforce and for directing those affected to alternative jobs. I’m particularly pleased to be heading to Deeside next week with the Secretary of State for Wales and the Secretary of State for Business and Trade, where we'll be making a major announcement regarding jobs.

My thoughts go out to the workers of Kimberly-Clark in Flint as well, as, obviously, you know that my constituency doesn't lie too far from the Flint area and, no doubt, this will have an impact on people locally in the Vale of Clwyd as well in more ways than just in economic senses. But it’s important that, whilst transitioning to a greener economy, we keep people in mind as much as we do the planet. The Institute for Welsh Affairs published a report in July that warned that the transition could exacerbate existing inequalities unless the Welsh Government takes decisive action. Decarbonisation can lead to higher prices for consumers, so it’s important that Government accounts for this, and the report highlights and takes into consideration other metrics of well-being, aside from GDP.

Rhyl West in my constituency is the most deprived part of Wales and people have to choose between heating and eating, and decarbonisation is not at the forefront of their minds. The just transition, therefore, must carry communities within the most deprived sections of our society and not exacerbate existing inequalities. And I’m particularly anxious about this given the alienation of the farming community with the development of the sustainable farming scheme. So, how does the Cabinet Secretary plan to implement a just transition for people in north Wales, ensuring that the cost of decarbonisation will not be the burden of the poorest in society to carry and will not exacerbate existing economic inequalities in the future in north Wales? Thank you.

I think the Member makes a number of important points. If we look back over history, Wales has had a very painful experience of unjust economic transitions, and so we do recognise the threats as we move towards net zero. It's crucial that we understand the threats but also the opportunities that lie in wait for us, and we embrace them as much as possible. I've been very, very heartened during my discussions with UK Government Ministers over the summer by their determination to have us contribute to the writing of the forthcoming industrial strategy, and to work in partnership on delivering the artificial intelligence action plan, because there are enormous opportunities as we transition towards greater use of technology and towards net zero. That transition, though, provides Wales with huge opportunities around green industries in the future. I know that my friend and colleague Jack Sargeant, as he looks to the future of the skills landscape, is acutely aware of those opportunities and the need to make sure that we are upskilling and reskilling workers who may be affected by the transition to net zero. Of course, many of the main levers rest in the hands of the UK Government, and that's why I'm so keen to work with new Ministers at Westminster to ensure that we get the best possible deal not just in terms of investment in Wales, in the new technologies, new industries, but also in terms of devising the strategy for how we will protect as many workers as possible and exploit as many opportunities in the future.

We closely analyse the performance of the tourism sector, but official statistics for this summer have not yet been published; I believe they're due to be published very shortly. Visit Wales continually engages with stakeholders, and industry feedback from north Wales has shown performance has been variable, with poor weather impacting demand in some sub-sectors.

Thank you. Well, first off, I'd like to thank everybody working in this very difficult sector currently. I have been liaising over the past eight weeks with representatives of the hospitality industry, and the picture is most concerning, Minister. One of our country's leading attractions has informed me that their year-to-year visitation to date is lower than last year, reflecting a sharp decline in visitors to Wales over the past 12 months. They are experiencing a trading down-trend in ticket value, mirroring the impacts of the cost-of-living crisis on consumer behaviour. And there has been a shift from short stays to day visits, likely due to economic pressures on their households. This pattern has been identified by others in the sector, who also report lower spending by visitors, reduced occupancy levels, international guests down, shorter stays, heavier discounting and offers. Now, Minister, you have announced some sensible measures, coming forward—we just want that to happen—as regards 20 mph. And, by the way, that is having an effect. But, as regards the tourism tax, could you perhaps look at this again? I and many in the industry believe that now is not the time to be introducing a tourism tax. Will you take a commonsense approach to that, and make an announcement very soon about perhaps withdrawing the tourism tax implications, going forward? Thank you.

Can I thank Janet Finch-Saunders for her question and her assessment of the visitor economy? It has been a difficult year, there's no doubt about it, not just in Wales, but across the United Kingdom and further afield. Tourism has been passed to my good friend and colleague Rebecca Evans now, as economy Minister, and Jack Sargeant is also keenly looking at the future of the visitor economy. Indeed, I think Jack will be attending next week's visitor economy forum with business leaders. And one of us, between the three of us, I'm sure will be in attendance at the next North Wales Tourism forum as well, with business leaders to further explore the issues that you've raised today.

I mentioned that this year has been difficult beyond Wales. I've been looking at trends in Europe as well, and it does appear that short-term bookings for holiday lets are down in many, many key areas of Europe that rely on visitors. And that trend of late bookings as well appears to be impacting on profitability. Discounts are being applied at very late notice, and that's when people are realising and they are booking. So, there are trends that are emerging within the visitor economy across Europe that we need to be very, very, very aware of, and this is why I think it’s essential that we work with business leaders to address the threat that those trends pose to the industry.

Now, our ambition is, obviously, to grow tourism for the benefit of businesses and the people of Wales, and we want to develop more all-year round and, crucially, all-weather attractions. We want to make sure that the visitor offer is continually refreshed. I did see Jim Jones’s letter recently from North Wales Tourism, and I thought Jim made a good number of very, very valid points about associated issues impacting on the visitor economy, including the need to invest in town centres to attract visitors in, the need to make sure that services like Avanti West Coast actually operate with fewer cancellations and more punctually. So, I’m looking forward to engaging with businesses in the role of north Wales Minister, but I know that the Cabinet Secretary and the Minister in the economy department are determined to grow the visitor economy.

I was pleased to be invited by Cruise Wales, along with other north Wales Members, recently to visit their Regent Seven Seas Navigator cruise ship in Holyhead during recess, alongside the Minister responsible for tourism, Jack Sargeant. It was really interesting. I arrived by train as well, using the north Wales line direct there to the port, which was really good. I just think we could do with promoting it a little bit more as well, about how accessible that it is without changing.

It was really clear to see why the cruise industry is so buoyant, with a potential 77,000 passengers visiting Wales this year, which is great news for our local economy and tourism industry. I know the port has received funding from the Welsh Government towards breakwater refurbishment to boost job opportunities, which has been very welcome. But, Cabinet Secretary, may I ask how else the Welsh Government can promote the wide variety of tourism opportunities that this sector brings, and linking it also with rail as well, which is really important?

Absolutely. I really must pay tribute to one of our former colleagues in regard to the cruise industry, and that’s Edwina Hart. When she was economy Minister, she did so much to attract the industry to Wales, to grow the sector in Wales. And I’m delighted that Visit Wales have been keenly pursuing all opportunities possible to grow that particular sector. It benefits many parts of Wales that are more remote, and it provides valuable opportunities in terms of employment for many, many people. So, you're guaranteed that the Welsh Government is committed to working with the sector, to grow it, to expand opportunities, and the economy Minister, and the Minister, will, I am sure, be responding to those opportunities with enthusiasm.

Like my colleagues who have spoken before me, Janet Finch-Saunders and Carolyn Thomas, I was keen to champion the tourism offer in north Wales, whether that’s in my role as a Senedd Member or personally. Those who know me well will know that I’ve spent most of my holidays since the age of eight at a family caravan on Ynys Môn. Much of that part of north Wales is amazing, with Eryri and with Ynys Môn and all around the Llŷn peninsula, but we have so much to offer on our doorstep in north-east Wales as well, and I’m very keen to use my role to facilitate and grow that area and grow support for tourism there. I recently met, during the summer, with the Clwydian Range Tourism Group at the beautiful Maes Mynan park, with epic views out over the Clwydian range. And they were keen—. Obviously, they raised a number of issues that they’re facing, and challenges in the tourism industry in particular. Some related to Welsh Government policies, such as the 182 days, but also in terms of, actually, how we can proactively better champion tourism in that area, and I’m keen to use my role to facilitate things within Flintshire and across the border. So, will the Ministers, perhaps, commit today on how we can work together to see how best we can not only support tourism in north-east Wales, but also shine a spotlight on all that we have to offer?

Well, can I thank the Member and very much agree that north Wales has a huge amount to offer visitors? And, in particular, in north-east Wales, we have the area of outstanding natural beauty—an incredible asset. I was surprised and delighted recently when I arrived into Liverpool international airport, and the first poster I saw stated 'Welcome to John Lennon International: the gateway to north Wales’, with a fabulous image of our region. So, clearly, interactions between the north-west of England and north Wales can bring economic benefits, but also, in terms of bringing overseas travellers into Wales, the role of Liverpool and Manchester airports, and indeed Birmingham international, cannot be overstated.

In response to the point that Janet Finch-Saunders made about the visitor levy, I do hope that that will generate new revenue to develop and enhance local services, and provide an opportunity for the visitor economy to be turbo-charged, and to grow through improving facilities, through improving infrastructure, which will make tourism a success, and in north Wales, that will be particularly important. We do need to improve some of the infrastructure that we have as part of the visitor economy, and we also need to make sure that in some tourism hotspots the growth in the visitor economy doesn't have an adverse impact on the day-to-day operations of communities in those areas. So, the levy does provide an opportunity to pump investment into the visitor economy, into tourism hotspots, as well as those unique and, to some extent, undiscovered gems of Wales. 

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Natasha Asghar.  

Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, welcome back after the summer. Yesterday, I am sure that you are well aware, marked one year since the Welsh Government introduced its extremely controversial 20 mph speed limit scheme. Over the past year, we've seen countless protests, including one on the steps of the Welsh Parliament yesterday, and a record-breaking petition calling for the policy to be axed gaining just under 0.5 million signatures. Over the summer, we saw the Junior Tour of Wales cycling race shortened and re-routed as a result of the 20 mph policy, and, in August, it was revealed by a YouGov poll that Wales still overwhelmingly rejects this 20 mph policy. According to the poll—for anyone who's missed it—seven out of 10 people, or 72 per cent, are opposed to the Welsh Government's flawed policy, with a mere 24 per cent of people in support. More time may have passed, but it's clear that opposition to this policy still very much remains.

And I appreciate that you did a listening programme, Cabinet Secretary, and the new First Minister did a summer listening programme as well, but people are still feeling ignored. They are fed up and they are angry. It was recently revealed that the Welsh councils have received more than 10,500 requests from residents calling for roads to revert back to 30 mph. So, Cabinet Secretary, will this new administration finally have the courage to admit that this policy was indeed a mistake, back-pedal and apply a real commonsense approach? Or were these listening programmes just a cynical attempt to curry favour amongst the public? Thank you. 

Can I thank Natasha Asghar and welcome her back after the summer recess? Welcome back into the role as well. I don't think that we're too far apart on this issue, to be honest. I think that the consensus is that we have to have the right speeds in the right places. That means 20 mph in those heavily built-up areas: areas where you have schools and parks and so forth. I think the difference is that we have a different route to ensure that we have the right speeds in the right places. Whereas we are trying to take a very swift and cost-effective means of reverting back those routes that should never have been changed to 20 mph, the only alternative route, which has been proposed, is to repeal the law and then go through a process that could take many, many years and cost a fortune, which would be to revert back then 30 mph routes to 20 mph. I am absolutely certain that the approach that we are taking will result in a more cost-effective and more timely way of dealing with the frustrations that have been expressed across Wales.

There is something else that needs to be said in regard to this policy. There is an emerging trend that shows that the number of fatalities and serious injuries through a reduction in collisions is going down. Now, I recognise—. Going down. The number of collisions has reduced by 20 per cent. Now, we need to wait for the full trend to emerge. But I am hopeful, and I think everybody in this Chamber should be hopeful, that the trend is downward, that we do see fewer people—. And I know that the Member for North Wales is making objections to this, but, surely, it is important that we all support a policy that is designed to save lives and, at the same time—[Interruption.]—and at the same time—[Interruption.] But that's on all roads. Let's not cherry-pick the statistics here. [Interruption.] All roads, exactly, which includes those that are unrestricted. It includes those roads where people can drive legally at 70 mph. It does not just apply—. Those statistics that you are quoting do not just apply to 20 mph. I am conscious about responding to the Member that hasn't asked the question. Sorry, Natasha.

Thank you so much, Cabinet Secretary. It's all fine; all fair in love and politics, as they say. So, it's hardly surprising, unfortunately, the way things—as you've probably just heard—are experienced that there is genuinely a feeling that this Welsh Labour Government is anti-motorist. Just a quick glance at some of the Government's back catalogue of policies can, indeed, back that up, but it appears as though the Welsh Labour Government's disdain for drivers has spread down the M4 to your colleagues sitting in Westminster now. I just thought politically, previously, that it was pensioners that the London colleagues were indeed punishing, but it seems to be that talk is rife that Keir Starmer’s Government is looking at introducing the pay-per-mile system as part of next month’s budget, which we’ve already been told will be painfully difficult for many people across the United Kingdom. There are legitimate fears amongst many people that introducing a pay-per-mile scheme will have a major impact on those on lower incomes and will punish hard-working families.

I have indeed written to both the UK Government’s Secretary of State for Transport and yourself as well, Cabinet Secretary, seeking answers, and I must put on the record I haven’t had answers from both, not being disrespectful in any way. So, will you please kindly today, Cabinet Secretary, outline what discussions you’ve had with your London counterparts about pay-per-mile being introduced here in Wales, and what assessments you’ve made of the impact that a pay-per-mile scheme will have, indeed, on Welsh motorists?

Can I thank Natasha Asghar for her questions regarding the potential for an alternative means of revenue to be raised from motoring? We know that the internal combustion engine will come to an end, and, as a consequence of that, road tax will have to change. Before the UK Labour Government was formed, already in the Department for Transport there was recognition that, unless we want to take a huge hit in terms of revenue at a UK level, there’ll have to be an alternative to road tax. That’s specifically because the internal combustion engine is being phased out and we’re seeing more electric cars with zero road tax being driven. So, the officials were already, in the Department for Transport, looking at alternative means of raising revenue. I have had no discussions with counterparts in Westminster regarding this. It is a reserved matter. But I would welcome from opposition Members any ideas on how that vital revenue that will otherwise be lost could be raised.

Okay, thank you so much, Cabinet Secretary. In the midst of summer recess, it was revealed the Welsh Government will be giving another £206 million to Cardiff Airport. This extra cash from the public purse comes on top of the hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers’ cash that’s already been pumped into the airport to date. It appears as though Labour Ministers once again are indeed fleecing the Welsh public to prop up an airport. All the while, I’m sure you can appreciate, Cabinet Secretary, our health service is under immense pressure with all of the health boards in some form of escalated status, our education system is struggling with the worst PISA results in the UK, yet instead of tackling these issues, which really do matter to the people of Wales, the Welsh Government would much rather focus on its never-ending list of vanity projects. That’s how it’s coming across, Cabinet Secretary.

So, today I’m asking you, can you see why this is an extremely bitter pill for the Welsh public to have to bear? And will you today here in this Chamber commit to giving the public a full breakdown of what exactly this £206 million is actually going to be paying for? Thank you.

I should state that I’m no longer responsible for the airport. This is a responsibility that’s been handed to my friend and colleague Rebecca Evans, and I know that she is keen to answer questions regarding the future of Cardiff Airport. It is a matter—

I think, Minister, you have an advantage over the rest of us in this Senedd, because ministerial responsibilities have not been clarified to the Senedd as yet. So, if you can—

Okay. Well, it may yet have come back then.

It may be changing, but, for now, our understanding is that, as requested by Natasha and asked, it needs to be answered by you.

Yes, thank you, Llywydd. This is a matter that is with the Competition and Markets Authority at the moment. It’s being considered by those experts. But I have to say that Cardiff Airport sustains thousands upon thousands of jobs. It makes a huge contribution to the economy of south Wales. Its loss would undoubtedly impact in terms of employment and in terms of the economy. I hear Members objecting to it. Is the position of opposition Members then to close the airport?

Privatise it.

Privatise the airport? We saw what happened when it was privatised, it was being driven into the ground. Precious few passenger airports around the world are purely, purely privately owned. Most passenger airports have a public stake, most passenger airports around the world. And a huge number of airports in their own right do not operate at a profit; they are considered economic magnets that generate work and opportunities for people in those regions.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Diolch, Llywydd. Unlike the Tories, who have u-turned on the issue of 20 mph in a desperate attempt to remain relevant, Plaid Cymru's commonsense approach has always been consistent. I'm sure we'll all agree that we all want safer roads for our communities, and speed restrictions should be imposed logically and proportionally. That's why we called for a review of the policy from the outset to better reflect local conditions. We also called for the Welsh Government to engage more closely with councils, so that changes could be communicated to drivers and pedestrians effectively. Now that the Government is in a new listening mode, do you regret, as your predecessor clearly does, that your party did not listen sooner to Plaid Cymru's calls on this matter, and can you tell me how much money would have been saved if you had listened sooner? 

Well, I'm on record as having spoken about the need to bring people with you on such a policy, such a huge change. So, I have to say that in order to implement change of this nature, you have to comply with three factors. One, you have to make sure that people support it locally within their communities. To do that, you have to listen to people. They have to be part of the process. And the other two factors concern the speed at which traffic is already moving. It has to be nearer the proposed speed limit in order to get full compliance. And then, the third one is that, ideally, you need physical and environmental installation of infrastructure in place to drive down speed limits. 

Now, in regard to listening to people, bringing people with us, the former transport Minister has accepted that the implementation was not as good as it should have been, and that's why we conducted the exercise that we've been on, where more than 10,000 people have shared their views on which routes should revert back to 30 mph. And in the coming months, we will see roads revert back, which takes account of what people have said to us. 

I didn't hear a figure there of how much it would have saved if we'd done it sooner, but we'll move on. The reality is that the Government's record of delivery has been at its best when it does listen to Plaid Cymru. The clear benefits of listening to Plaid were demonstrated when Transport for Wales listened to a number of calls by my colleague Heledd Fychan on the provision of public transport during the National Eisteddfod. The response to the train service was overwhelmingly positive, so I commend Transport for Wales for their organisation.

But smooth and efficient running of public transport should not be the exception; it should be the norm. Unfortunately, this remains frustratingly elusive over large parts of our rail network, where cancellations, delays and overcrowding are an all-too-familiar experience for passengers. But instead of seeking to improve the accessibility of their services, in line with Government's ambition to encourage greater use of public transport, Transport for Wales has introduced measures that will achieve the complete opposite. They include fining individuals who reasonably expected to have an option of buying tickets from a ticket inspector, in imminent cuts to the service on the Heart of Wales line, and proposals to scrap compensation for delays of between 15 and 30 minutes. 

Do you agree that rather than penalising passengers who already have had to contend with yet another sizeable fare increase this year, Transport for Wales should concentrate on getting its house in order to provide a more accessible and punctual service?  

I actually think it's absolutely right that people who deliberately dodge fares are fined. In many parts of the network now, we do have tap on, tap off functions for paying for travel; there are ticket machines; and in many instances, there are still ticket booths as well. Where people have no valid reason for dodging a fare, I think it's absolutely right that they should be fined. I would imagine all Members in this Chamber would agree. And we are conscious of the need to make sure that everybody has the opportunity to purchase a ticket, whether it be online, whether it be through tap on, tap off, whether it be through a machine or whether it be direct through a TfW official. There's no excuse for committing fraud. They're effectively stealing from the public purse. We know that public finances are stretched, and I believe it's absolutely right that we drive up the farebox, that we increase the amount of revenue that we raise from passengers who are deliberately dodging fares. I make no apology for that. 

And in terms of what the Member said about TfW performance during the Eisteddfod, I am truly grateful for those kind comments. The feedback that I've received has been very positive as well, and it does show, I think, part of a broader trend for TfW train services, a trend that is upward. Eighty per cent of TfW trains arrive within three minutes of scheduled time. That's to be welcomed. It now means that TfW is outperforming Avanti, Great Western Railway, CrossCountry, moving up the UK performance table, and we're determined to make sure that that trend continues.   

Thank you very much for that response. 

The problem with accessibility and reliability are, of course, a recurring theme with the bus network, which remains in a precarious position after years of uncertainty and long-term funding arrangements. In the meantime, threats of further closures to routes, which could leave some of our most isolated communities even more disconnected, continue to grow.

We've long been told that the new bus Bill will be the cure to these ills, but the relevant details, especially related to the legislative timetable, are vague to say the least. Given the fact that the Government is now defined more by what it isn't doing than by what it is doing, there are entirely justified fears that this Bill could fall victim to a cull, like the legislation already consumed—the council tax reform and the gender reform Bill. 

We've heard a lot over the past few days from Ministers about the Government having a grand plan for the remainder of this Senedd term, but we're still none the wiser as to what that plan actually entails. So, could you confirm once and for all what the plan is for the bus Bill? Will it be delivered before 2026, and if so, will it be introduced before the Senedd for scrutiny?

Yes, it will. We'll be introducing it in the spring. It's a huge piece of legislation. We're seeing at the moment the UK Government intervene in regard to bus services with the better buses Bill. That's looking at empowering local authorities in England. What we'll be doing with our Bill is on a national basis bringing about the opportunity to franchise services and to better plan and integrate bus services with rail services, and to integrate ticketing as well. So, it's a very significant piece of legislation, but we'll be introducing it in the spring. Once it's passed by the Senedd, the hard work begins of actually putting into motion those new contracts that will meet the needs of passengers rather than drive profit motive.

Our policy emphasises the importance of local and community energy generation ownership. We have guidance in place that includes a toolkit to further support this policy, illustrating the steps energy companies should make to ensure community contribution is considered.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response. I understand that this portfolio will be handed to someone else in future, but for today, the Welsh Government, through various documents such as 'Future Wales: the national plan 2040' and others has designated large parts of Welsh land for the development of energy projects, but it's large multinationals who are being given the contracts to develop these more often than not, such as RWE and Bute, and in turn they can be commercialised and sold on to other companies. But it's our natural resources that are being used to enrich the shareholders of these companies. It appears to me, at least, that we're seeing the continuation of the extractive economic system at the expense of our communities, meaning that Wales continues to live in comparative poverty. What steps is the Government taking in order to ensure that any development here will benefit our communities here in Wales, not shareholders of wealthy companies?

Can I thank Mabon for his question? He's right, this is a responsibility that has been handed to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning. However, I can say that in terms of the development work on the energy sector deal, we're working with industry and organisations right across Wales to ensure that community voices are heard throughout the process of putting that deal together. The engagement is being developed further over the coming year. I'm hoping that the concerns that you've raised today will feature very heavily in the work that is being done on the energy sector deal. Capacity within our communities in Wales is an issue that needs to be addressed. I was reading an item, I think it was from Cardiff Business School, recently on the very subject that you were talking about with the extractive nature of energy generation and the use of our land. It is something that the Minister is acutely conscious of, and I'm sure that she'll be responding to those concerns in the not-too-distant future.

Cabinet Secretary, the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee have not long concluded an inquiry into the green future that is available to us here in Wales and has specifically focused around the community benefit that these opportunities bring. I would urge you and the Cabinet Secretary for economy and energy, who's in her place, to really pay close attention to the recommendations that will be forthcoming in that, because there needs to be a strategy in terms of community benefit. Community benefit can be valued in terms of the skills and jobs and employment opportunities that come, all the way through to the opportunities for cheaper energy bills for those in the locality. But one of the key criticisms brought forward during the inquiry was that the Welsh Government works in silos when it comes to developing strategy for this very opportunity. So, a plea, really, for you and your Cabinet colleagues to park the silos, work across Government departments, because the opportunities that are here in Wales are so great that we really need to maximise those opportunities and turn them into realities for the benefit of all of Wales’s communities.

I thank the Member and I believe he's right—it's absolutely essential. That was one of the First Minister’s top priorities outlined yesterday. The development of green jobs using new technologies and opportunities with renewable energy means that we have to break down those silos at political and at official level and work across Government. I think it's safe to say that we are doing a huge amount in terms of local ownership and community benefits concerning energy projects. But, of course, more can be done, and that's why we've been allocating funding to some schemes, such as Ynni Cymru, to evolve smart, local energy systems. As part of this work, what we need to do is evaluate its success so that it can then inform broader policy across Government in years to come.

I think there are many reasons why the Cabinet Secretary for north Wales would wish to join me and the community in opposing two enormous solar farms planned for Ynys Môn. Not only is the so-called community benefit negligible, there is the negative impact on tourism. Three thousand six hundred acres is some 15 times the size of the current largest solar farm in the UK. There's the detrimental impact on agriculture and food production in Môn, Mam Cymru—the mother of Wales. The sheer scale of the solar capacity needed—only 10 per cent of it used, though—will have a detrimental impact on grid capacity. I would invite the Cabinet Secretary to join me to see the sheer scale of this plan on Ynys Môn. And can I ask him if he would join me in calling for a moratorium on such enormous solar farms until such time as Government can put together a strategy, which could include smaller pockets of solar, solar on buildings and so on, instead of this extractive and exploitative model of solar farm development?

It's very difficult for me to comment on a specific application or a specific proposal. What I would say is that development must be sensitive to the natural environment and to communities, and that people must be engaged at the earliest possibility. I know from my own representations on schemes in my constituency that the value of having early engagement with developers is hugely important. Sam Rowlands and I, and Mark Isherwood, actually visited a community in Coedpoeth last year where, to be fair to the developer there, they engaged proactively and were very responsive to the community, and I think the outcome was quite positive as a result of that. And that shows why, in developing these schemes, which are hugely important in driving down our reliance on other forms of energy, they have to be developed in a sensitive way, with community buy-in as well, community support.

In addition to our significant financial support for the industry, we wish to improve bus services by introducing franchising. This will support our aspirations for an integrated public transport system across Wales, including in Islwyn, designed around the people who rely on it.

Thank you. Until the 1980s, most bus services throughout the United Kingdom were delivered through publicly owned companies, often run by local and accountable councils. And then Margaret Thatcher’s Government deregulated and dismantled the bus industry and privatised services for profit, leading to the mass sale of bus companies and the collapse of non-profit routes. And in the 20 years that followed the Tory Transport Act 1985, bus ridership outside of London fell by almost 40 per cent, despite an increase in population. So, Cabinet Secretary, as Labour's mayor of greater Manchester, Andy Burnham, has successfully brought back bus services into public control with his aptly named Bee Network, what progress is the Welsh Government making with our bus Bill? And what lessons can be learnt from this very successful example that will ensure that the communities of Islwyn get the bus services they both need and deserve?

We're very keen to learn from all parts of the UK and to learn from other areas of Europe as well in regard how to manage bus services. I would agree that deregulation has been a disaster for communities across Wales, and we are seeking to rectify this with our bus Bill. In terms of the Bee Network, it's an intriguing and creative initiative that we've been looking at as we develop the T network here in Wales, integrating rail and bus services, integrating the timetables, integrating the ticketing. In regard to Islwyn, obviously Islwyn has benefited from the financial support that we've given to the bus industry in a deregulated environment, but we are determined to make sure that, as we pursue through legislation the opportunities that franchising provides, we plan bus services in the interests of the population and the interests of the people that we serve. It's an incredibly complicated piece of legislation, but it's an incredibly exciting one for the people that you serve in Islwyn.

Cabinet Secretary, the First Minister has stated, of course, that better bus services will be one of her priorities, and as the Welsh Conservatives of course we fully support that. Cabinet Secretary, perhaps more adults would use public transport if the Welsh Government did follow some parts of England's example and put a £2 cap on single bus journeys for working adults. Or, follow the suggestion of my colleague Natasha Asghar and introduce an all-Wales travel card. Cabinet Secretary, will we see these sorts of initiatives in the bus Bill, and do you agree with me that if we want to improve bus services in Wales, we need the service to be everything that a Welsh Labour Government is not—efficient, reliable, and good value for money?

The Member makes a valuable point in that it's vital that we do look to best practice elsewhere. Once the Bill has been passed, it will be far easier and more cost effective to introduce some novel schemes such as capped fares. I recently met with the Member for North Wales, Carolyn Thomas, to discuss various ideas and how they could be piloted. The key barrier for us at the moment is twofold. First, we have that deregulated market, which means that operators can cherry-pick the profitable services and leave to councils the responsibility and the financial responsibility to provide services where the market has failed. And then the second challenge we have, obviously, in no small part because of Trussonomics and the disaster that happened under that former Prime Minister, is that public finances are stretched to the limit. I will pursue any pilot scheme, any novel scheme, that is affordable and will drive up patronage. And in passing the piece of legislation that we'll be introducing to this Senedd in the spring of next year, we'll be able to do it in a far more cost-effective way.

We are currently upgrading the A40 between Llanddewi Velfrey and Redstone Cross, and our current list of strategic network improvements is contained in the national transport delivery plan. We will continue to monitor sections of the network that experience congestion and identify solutions aligning with the Wales transport strategy where required.

Cabinet Secretary, you're very much aware of the Newgale coastal adaptation scheme in my constituency, given that we have met to discuss it. As you know, I have concerns regarding Pembrokeshire County Council's proposals, as they would cost millions and millions of pounds to the taxpayer. In the meantime, the local community has put together an alternative plan that could save a lot of money, and it's important that their plan is now properly considered. However, I understand that a recent briefing sent to council members makes a number of inaccurate statements about the community's plans, which is very worrying. I know that your officials were liaising with Pembrokeshire County Council, so can you tell us what the outcomes of those discussions were, and can you also tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure that this process is transparent, and that all information about the proposals is right and accurate?

It is absolutely correct that transparency should prevail in consideration of schemes of this nature. I was grateful for the opportunity to meet with Paul Davies and to learn more about the suggestion from the community. As a result of that meeting, my officials then liaised with the council, who provided assurance that the suggested community alternative should be appropriately considered and is appropriately considered before their final decision on the preferred scheme. It will be, obviously, for Pembrokeshire County Council to make the final decision on the appropriate viable solution, but I think it's absolutely essential that the suggestion put forward by the community is given full consideration and that accurate data, accurate information, is provided to elected members.

Well, I do recognise the frustration of Members across the Senedd and of passengers regarding the poor reliability of Avanti West Coast services. The services need to improve, given how vital the connection is between north Wales and London.

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. I would agree absolutely that the current service from north Wales down to London is a complete mess. You'll be aware that, only a couple of years ago, there were 14 trains a day moving between London and north Wales; that's now down to five. And on top of that, of the five that exist, one in five of those are cancelled. It's the worst-performing route in the UK by a long stretch, and it's having a massive impact, of course, on local businesses and people's livelihoods as well. So, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on what possible action you may be able to take to support improvements on that particular line. But, in addition, you'll also be aware of proposals for a route from Wrexham to London, with five trains a day at least proposed for that route. I think that's an excellent idea for the largest conurbation in north Wales to have that direct link down to London, so I'd be interested to know whether that's something you'd be likely to support in the future.

Well, can I thank Sam Rowlands for his question? We've had numerous discussions since he was elected to the Senedd about rail services, not just across north Wales, but from north Wales to London, and we are in agreement that the performance of Avanti West Coast is unacceptable. I've met with Avanti and expressed that view. I've also met with the new UK rail Minister, Lord Hendy, and impressed upon him the need to make sure that we have a role as a Welsh Government in overseeing the future public operator of this important link between north Wales and London, because as things stand, Welsh Government does not have any formal role in specifying or managing or holding to account the operator.

Now, Sam Rowlands is also right when he talks about the reduction in the services that has taken place since COVID. There has been a huge reduction in the number of services, performance has declined and, unfortunately, where they used to operate eight-coach trains before COVID, that number has now fallen to five coaches. And as a consequence of that, overcrowding is a regular occurrence on the service. So, there have to be improvements. And I am very pleased indeed that the new UK Government are holding very regular performance meetings with Avanti West Coast and holding them to account to deliver improvements. I think the model that's been operating in Britain for far too long has failed passengers day in, day out, and that's why I very much welcome the UK Government's approach to publicly owned passenger rail, and I look forward to working in the future with Ministers at Westminster to pursue all opportunities, including, potentially, open access.

Open access is an interesting model, and I'd very much welcome improved opportunities for increased connectivity for the people of north Wales with a Wrexham to London service. But, crucially, there has to be the capacity on the rail lines and existing services cannot be impacted adversely as a result of introducing an open access service. But it is a very interesting proposition from Alstom. I think this would be the first rail operation from Alstom, who are used to just building trains, not actually running them. So, I'm looking forward to seeing more information on what they propose.

Yes. Positive and early engagement has taken place with the Prime Minister, with the Secretary of State for Wales and Secretaries of State for business and trade, and also energy. We're all committed to working together on our shared ambitions to deliver growth and jobs in Wales.

Yes, Cabinet Secretary, after some 14 years of wasted opportunity with a lack of true partnership between UK Government and Welsh Government, we are now into a new era, which I'm sure will, and already has, I think, deliver transformed relationships between our new UK Labour Government and our Labour Government here in Wales. One aspect of delivering on that new reality, Cabinet Secretary, is around our transport infrastructure. I think we have a very good piece of work by Gordon Brown and others looking at the regional disparities in the UK and the need for Wales, Scotland and the north of England to have a lot more investment in all sorts of areas, including transport infrastructure. So, now, Cabinet Secretary, will you work very closely with our UK Labour Government to ensure that we see delivery? We’ve been grossly underfunded for so many years in terms of rail infrastructure. We need to move to an integrated transport system, so I look forward—I’m sure you do—to seeing the results of that new partnership, and a truly integrated transport system in Wales.

I thank John Griffiths and I agree entirely with him. The work of Gordon Brown is fabulous—fabulous. I had an opportunity to take part in one of the sessions that he hosted. It was a virtual session. He mistook me—because my initials popped up as 'KS' for somebody that resides in Downing Street—at first, but it was a valuable exchange of views on how we can address regional inequalities in the United Kingdom, and, of course, transport infrastructure is hugely important in enabling people to access employment opportunities.

Now, I found it remarkable that, since the UK general election, I’ve met now with the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Wales, on numerous occasions, the Secretary of State for Business and Trade—I’ll meet with him and with the Secretary of State for Wales again next week—I’ve met with the Secretary of State for Transport, the Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology, the rail Minister, the energy Minister, and the Wales Office Minister, and so far, I can point to a number of valuable outcomes as a result of two Governments working as one. We had the announcement over the summer that we will be increasing the number of services across north Wales by 50 per cent—by 50 per cent—from 2026, as a result of a decision by UK Government over rail infrastructure in north Wales. That’s a huge outcome in a very short space of time. Next week we’ll have an announcement in north Wales regarding job opportunities. We’ve had a commitment to co-create the industrial strategy, to play a full part in implementing the artificial intelligence action plan. We’re going to have a joint Wales rail board later this year, before Christmas—a rail board meeting that will bring together myself and the rail Minister from Westminster. And it won’t take place in London, it’s going to take place in Wrexham. We will then be forming our priorities for rail investment in infrastructure in the coming years. So, already we are seeing huge benefits of two Labour Governments working as one.

Finally, question 8, Darren Millar.

Yes. The poor reliability of public transport operated by Avanti West Coast is letting down passengers in north Wales. In contrast, the Welsh Government is investing in public transport, improving performance, reliability and quality of our rail services and also continuing to grow the TrawsCymru network.

Thank you for that response, and it is the TrawsCymru network, actually, that I want to refer to. There were some changes implemented on the network from November last year, following a review by consultants commissioned by Transport for Wales. Many of the timetables were changed as a result of that review. Some buses were taken off certain routes and new artificial intelligence systems were installed on buses in order to monitor the focus of drivers on the road. I am being contacted, though, by passengers who are telling me that the timetables are unrealistic, there is insufficient margin for congestion, or the new 20 mph speed limits in some areas, and that, as a result, many people are missing their connections and often passengers, unfortunately, are being left stranded on some routes.

Now, clearly, there does need to be a reliable bus transport system connecting parts of rural Wales to some urban conurbations, but we do need, I think, to review the arrangements on the TrawsCymru network to make sure that passengers are getting the services that they deserve, but also that there is not undue pressure on drivers who are facing the challenges of having to meet these unrealistic timetables. I am told that the AI system—parts of it have been turned off because it’s been a dangerous distraction for some drivers on these routes. So, can you tell me, Cabinet Secretary, what work you will now do in order to make sure that there’s a review of this as soon as possible?

Well, can I thank Darren Millar for his question? TfW, of course, are developing solutions right now to operational issues with specific TrawsCymru routes, including TrawsCymru T3, which operates—. That’s the service that Darren Millar was identifying just now; it’s the route that operates between Wrexham and Barmouth. And what they’re doing is developing solutions that will drive reliability up. We’ve also recently seen the introduction of service improvements to the T2 route linking Bangor to Aberystwyth, and that’s included more evening and Sunday journeys. But if I may, Llywydd, I’ll ask Transport for Wales to examine the concerns raised today by Darren Millar and respond accordingly.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

The next item will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for social justice, and the first question is from Sam Rowlands.

Thank you for the question. In accordance with the UK Cabinet Office single procurement document, due diligence checks are undertaken before awarding our contracts.

Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary. It was revealed over the summer that the Welsh Government had given a research contract to a firm whose sole director is a sex offender who admitted taking part in sexual activity with a child, and this firm, as you will know, is called Laurel Research Consulting, who were awarded a contract last year for a research topic on conversion therapies. But Laurel Research has no clear links in this subject area whatsoever. In recent days, you have cancelled this contract. But it turns out that Laurel Research have other work being undertaken for Welsh Government, including being commissioned for a £135,000 multi-year grant to produce the anti-racist library collections guide. To me, it's deeply concerning that taxpayers' money is being funnelled to a company being run by a sex offender under the auspices of the LGBTQ+ and the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. So, I'd like to ask, Cabinet Secretary, why this company has been given such sensitive multiple contracts through the Welsh Government, what you're doing to ensure this type of thing does not happen again, and can you confirm that you've instructed institutions to ignore publications provided by this now-discredited organisation?

Thank you for those questions. I was very concerned when I learnt of the development regarding Laurel Research Consulting, and that's why my officials acted promptly to review contracts with the organisation and took immediate, necessary actions. We were made aware of the issues with Laurel Research Consulting on Monday, 2 September. This research contract was terminated, as you've acknowledged, on 6 September 2024. And also, we are co-ordinating, which I think is crucially important, immediate action for new procurement exercises, whilst a review of existing contracts is already under way.

Thank you very much for that important question.

We want to make Wales the safest place to be a woman. Our Sound campaign addresses behaviours and attitudes directly with men and boys in Wales. Our vision is that it's not for women to change their behaviours, but for abusers to change theirs.

Thank you for that response, and I agree entirely with it. In 2015 an offence was brought into law making coercive and controlling behaviour a crime. Coercive control is a pattern of behaviour in which an abuser controls their victim's life, systematically removing their independence and support network, and coerces their victim through verbal intimidation, threats and/or physical abuse. We know of two high-profile victims of coercive control, Ruth Dodsworth and Anna McMorrin. Anna McMorrin told BBC Wales that 'people shouldn't feel stigmatised' and that 'anyone' can be in such a situation and become a victim. Does the Government accept that there is a need for additional support for victims of coercive control?

Thank you very much for that important question, Mike Hedges, and I think it is important to recognise the courage of women, of survivors who come out and speak in this way about their experience of coercive control. Yes, we have a law, but, actually, are we implementing it in terms of our criminal justice system? I think it's also important to recognise that it's about raising awareness, about reporting and our Live Fear Free campaigns, raising awareness of not just coercive control, importantly, but stalking, harassment, abuse and violence against women in all aspects of life.

I just want to extend my congratulations today, the first chance, to Emma Wools. Now, Emma Wools was successfully appointed as Police and Crime Commissioner for South Wales Police recently, and she now joins me as co-chair of the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence national partnership board. She has a leadership role in policing in Wales, and she's already launched the 'What matters to you—tell Emma' community grant scheme.

So, I absolutely endorse everything that you've said, but I would say I hope some of you saw the interesting feedback about Sound—WalesOnline on 8 September—about our Sound ambassadors reflecting on their own behaviours, recognising the impact they have on their partners and encouraging men to do better, to be a Sound man, a Sound partner, and I quote:

'"I've smashed my phone, I've been suspicious and paranoid." The men who have changed their ways as a national emergency is declared.'

And the Sound campaign—our Welsh Government Sound campaign—has won a UK national award as the best community engagement campaign. So, I urge everyone as well to take forward this important responsibility in terms of raising awareness.

As a self-confessed fan of Emmerdale, I was pleased to see that this was recently highlighted in the soap in terms of highlighting the story of Belle Dingle and her partner Tom; Belle was unfortunately the victim of coercive behaviour. So, I’m glad that that was raised on a national scale, and I thank the producers of Emmerdale and ITV for, obviously, highlighting that on a national scale, and I think that that can, obviously, go leaps and bounds in terms of raising that awareness and getting that on the agenda. But I’m interested to know what work the Welsh Government has done on perpetrator-focused interventions and how the Cabinet Secretary is working with the Cabinet Secretary for Education to ensure that young people understand the signs of coercive behaviour, either in themselves or with a partner, and how is the Welsh Government working on perpetrator-focused interventions specifically? Thank you.

Thank you very much, Gareth, and also thank you for drawing attention to Emmerdale. I confess that I don't watch Emmerdale, but, actually, it is important. On a serious level, the media has to take a responsibility. It is through many of our so-called soaps, radio and television, that these stories have been told and they’re powerful in that way, as they are when well-known, important people in public life, as Mike Hedges has said, also reveal that they have been survivors of coercive control.

But I think it’s important that we—just in terms of acknowledging your recognition of this importance—look at how we are acting, not just in terms of this overall campaign, Live Fear Free, our VAWDASV strategy, but that we have a strand of work in our VAWDASV strategy. Indeed the Equality and Social Justice Committee will be aware of this, about how we’re tackling perpetrator behaviour, and I’m very grateful to the committee, actually, for the work that we’ve done. And also I’ve mentioned our new Police and Crime Commissioner for South Wales; I have to pay tribute to the north Wales chief constable, Amanda Blakeman, who is absolutely at the forefront. We need women in these leadership positions, I have to say, as well, operationally as well as in political positions, and we have a workstream on tackling perpetrator behaviour and taking action.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Joel James.

Thank you, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, why does the Labour Party think that scrapping the winter fuel payment for struggling pensioners is a good idea?

Well, it’s very interesting that we’ve had quite a lot of discussion about this, of course, yesterday with the First Minister, and I’m delighted that we’ve got questions and also a debate this afternoon. I think it is important that we debate this in this Chamber, because what we have to do in terms of this difficult decision that was made by the UK Government because of the fact that your last Government had wrecked our economy, leaving that £22 billion black hole in the public finances—[Interruption.] I said yesterday that I’m going to say this quite a few times, as other Ministers and Cabinet Secretaries will. But the important point, Joel, is that we have to ensure that people in Wales, including pensioners, claim every £1 that they’re entitled to, and, importantly—and this is where I’m working closely with the UK Government—increase the take-up of pension credit, because that will unlock not only access to the winter fuel payment this winter, for many pensioners who aren’t taking it up in Wales, but will also unlock other benefits to them as well.

I believe that it’s clear to everyone that the scrapping of the winter fuel payment for so many vulnerable old people is not only exceptionally short-sighted but utterly callous. We know that there is a considerable amount of pensioners who live just above the threshold to qualify for pension credit. We know that many people are not claiming pension credit who are entitled to it. We know that fuel prices are predicted to go up by around 10 per cent in October this year. And so, Cabinet Secretary, we know that this policy will undoubtedly cause a large number of pensioners to likely switch off their heating this winter. The fact that Wales has 15 per cent more pensioners as a proportion of the population, compared to England, also means that Welsh pensioners will be disproportionately affected. Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, since the Labour-run UK Government hasn't, what assessment have you made of the impact of winter fuel allowance cuts in Wales, and what additional resources do you now expect to have to find to support Welsh pensioners?

An important follow-up question indeed. I was very pleased to receive a letter from the Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP—she's the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions—only this week, in response to my correspondence, my letter, to her earlier in the summer, to ask the questions about how can we address this in terms of meeting the needs, particularly, of our poorest pensioners in Wales, who are not claiming pension credit. And many of you will be aware that our former Older People's Commissioner, Heléna Herklots, took this as a very strong pension credit campaign. We were involved as a Welsh Government in that. So, we are engaging very closely with the UK Government campaign. We've shared with stakeholders across Wales the pension credit social media messages, we've got our Welsh Government 'Claim what's yours' campaign, encouraging people to contact Advicelink Cymru for help to claim with pension credit. We're putting posters in our doctors' surgeries. It's across the whole of Welsh Government that we're looking to help get this message across.

But I do think also that this is about prevention, about how we support our pensioner households in Wales. And the investment of £30 million this year into our Warm Homes Nest scheme to tackle fuel poverty for homeowners and households renting with private landlords is crucially important. Now, can I just say one other point? Not enough pensioners are taking up our discretionary assistance fund to provide emergency support for households. So, I do urge you to take up, with your constituents, and particularly pensioners, and give them the information, particularly via our 'Claim what's yours' campaign, of discretionary assistance payments, which is something that we in Wales have of course supported and made a priority in our budget.

Cabinet Secretary, you have said, and I quote:

'The decision that the Winter Fuel Payment will no longer be universal risks pushing some pensioners into fuel poverty.'

and it does risk hurting vulnerable older people. Yet the reality, as we have seen last week, Cabinet Secretary, is that UK Labour couldn't care less what this Welsh Government thinks. The fact that no Welsh Labour MPs voted to scrap this policy shows that the Labour Party is not interested in Wales. Will you now publicly condemn those Welsh MPs that failed to vote to scrap this policy, which will directly hurt so many vulnerable people in Wales? Thank you.

I can't believe the cheek, I would say, that's coming over. Yes, you're now in opposition in Westminster, but you were in power for 14 years of austerity, where you stripped so many of the benefits of pensioners. [Interruption.] Actually, I'm quite happy to quote from Liz Kendall's letter, because she says in her letter, 'As the first step to rebuilding Britain we must fix the foundations of our economy to make the changes our country desperately needs, given our dire inheritance'—dire inheritance—'including the £22 billion black hole in the public finances this year. We've had to make hard choices.'

But also she has accepted in terms of what the Welsh Government is doing to reach out and work with them to raise awareness of pension credit: 'I'm pleased to say that the Department for Work and Pensions'—obviously, it's the UK Government's responsibility, in terms of benefits—'will be directly contacting approximately 120,000 pensioner households, including in Wales, who are in receipt of housing benefit and who have been identified as eligible but not currently claiming pension credit.'

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Diolch, Llywydd. You berate the Tories, rightly, for 14 years of austerity, but the Labour Government are continuing with that flawed and damaging fiscal approach. Two worrying statistics for you as we head into the winter months: the last available excess winter deaths statistics, which were for 2021-22, showed 240 people in Wales died due to living in a poor home. Age Cymru’s latest report, published before the announcement of this cut to the winter fuel payment, shows that only 7 per cent—7 per cent—of those they surveyed currently receive pension credit, while nearly half said they were finding living costs a real challenge. Older people, as we know, are more vulnerable to the cold, are more likely to have conditions and disabilities that mean they need to use more energy to keep warm, and they live in Wales in less fuel-efficient houses, and pay some of the highest rates for their energy. A constituent of mine from the Neath valley got in touch. Her husband has a serious heart condition, which means they have to keep the heating on all day. She described to me how absolutely worried she is about this cut. She’s a former nurse, who worked all her life, and this is how we repay that service. She is not eligible for pension credit. She is claiming everything she can; she’s still not going to be able to keep that house as warm as she wants to. So, what conversations have you had with the Cabinet Secretary for health on how our health and care services will cope with the inevitable increased demand?

Thank you for that question, and it is important that we look at our Warm Homes Nest scheme, as I’ve already mentioned—£30 million a year to tackle fuel poverty for home owners and households renting from private landlords. Because this is where eligibility, again—. And I think it’s important that we do recognise that there are many people who are not eligible for pension credit, and that’s where we need to reach out to those people. But these eligible households, to access that Warm Homes funding, they can get a bespoke measure of packages to insulate, decarbonise their homes, leading to a reduction, because this is about reducing energy bills, moving people out of fuel poverty.

And also—and I know the First Minister mentioned this yesterday— something not happening in England, we provide funding to the Fuel Bank Foundation, and that’s a fuel voucher and heat fund scheme for those in fuel crisis, for people, not just people who are on prepayment meters, but people who are off grid. So, we have a responsibility—and I hope it’s shared across this Chamber—to actually promote access to these other benefits. And I look forward to actually meeting with the cross-party group—the fuel poverty cross-party group—very soon, and I’m sure the chair, Mark Isherwood, will be pleased about that.

But we have to look again at all the other benefits. We must reach out to ensure that, in our Welsh benefits charter—which is our way of actually developing a compassionate, person-centred delivery of benefits that we’ve got some control of—we can maximise household incomes.

I’m glad you mentioned the Warm Homes programme, because many of the thousands of people across Wales who provide essential, unpaid care to loved ones, saving the NHS and social services millions of pounds, are going to be amongst the hardest hit by this decision by Labour to cut the winter fuel payment. Those aged 65 plus make up the largest proportion of unpaid carers. A Carers Wales report, published in the last few days, shows an estimated 100,000 unpaid carers live in poverty, and nearly one in 10 unpaid carers live in deep poverty, and the rate of deep poverty amongst unpaid carers is 50 per cent higher than amongst the rest of the population. Carers, of course, face increased costs, such as higher energy bills, which further exacerbate their financial difficulties, with many struggling to afford basic necessities, such as heating and food.

Given the cut to the winter fuel programme, and the stark findings of this Carers Wales report, will the Welsh Government make carers allowance a qualifying benefit for the home-efficiency improvements provided by Welsh Government-funded energy efficiency schemes, and will Government ensure that carer-related benefits are not counted as income when assessing eligibility for the Warm Homes Nest programme?

Well, thank you for that also very important question in terms of this cross-Government responsibility that we’ve got. Obviously, this is something on which I’m working very closely with all my colleagues in Welsh Government from health and social care. And carers, obviously, are crucial to this, and I acknowledge that really important report from Carers Wales.

Can I just say one other point that came from the letter from Liz Kendall, which I think is encouraging to us here in Wales? She says, ‘In the longer term, the only way to guarantee greater uptake is to make the whole process'—this is in terms of claiming pension credit particularly, but other credit benefits—'more automatic.' So, the UK Government is going to bring forward the administration of housing benefit and pension credit into more of an automatic process. But, also, from a UK Government perspective, the Warm Homes discount of £150 is also available, but it's not just to those on pension credit, it's to those on housing benefit with high energy costs too. But we will look at the recommendations of the Carers Wales report.   

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. The decision to limit the winter fuel payment to pensioners receiving pension credit has, of course, raised wide concerns. The older people's commissioner, Age Cymru, Carers Wales and National Energy Action are among those who have warned about its impact on the ability of older people to keep warm and well at home, and that it would leave many pensioners in need without support this winter. Energy prices remain far above pre-crisis levels and are set to rise further, as you know, by 10 per cent on 1 October, just as people need to be turning their heating on or up. National Energy Action Cymru has also warned that vulnerable households across Wales are weighed down by over £3.3 billion of energy debt, largely built up over the last two years. This is double what it was before the energy crisis and, beyond this winter, analysts suggest that energy prices will not return to pre-pandemic levels this decade. Both the south and north of Wales remain in the top three most expensive regions across the UK. So, what conversations have you had with the UK Government and Ofgem around the introduction of a mandated social energy tariff, along with targeted support to reduce energy debt levels in order to alleviate fuel poverty in Wales?

I absolutely agree that we have to move forward in terms of tackling that unacceptable level of debt. As you will know, and across this Chamber, I've called for a social tariff to be implemented. I'm also very concerned about the price rise cap that Ofgem announced in the summer as well. I'm meeting Ofgem to discuss that. I'm also very concerned about standing charges, which you know are now being reviewed at the moment. So, yes, thank you again for putting that on the agenda as part of the way in which we can tackle this. But I think, also, I have engaged—. I want to say that I have engaged with Ed Miliband, the Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero on this. And I would just say, in terms of sharing his letter, he does say, 'Reducing fuel poverty is a crucial part of our clean power mission. Through our Warm Homes plan, the Government will invest an extra £6.6 billion in energy efficiency funding over this parliament to upgrade 5 million homes and cut bills for families'. Well, I will be meeting with him and his team to see how we can benefit from that in Wales.

Thank you for the question. We welcome the decisive action the UK Government is taking to address the capacity issues in prisons. We will continue to work with the UK Government to support people in custody and assist with their rehabilitation.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. HMP Parc, in my region, is one of the most overcrowded prisons in the country. There have been a string of deaths at the prison in recent months, avoidable deaths at that. The latest official figures show there have been 12 deaths in Parc since the beginning of the year, and many of them self-inflicted. With the prison running at 160 per cent of capacity, the mental health and welfare of the inmates is suffering. However, overcrowding alone cannot be blamed. In recent weeks, the prisons ombudsman released the report into the death of Aaron Nunes. Mr Nunes died of a dental abscess. The ombudsman found that the inexperienced healthcare staff 

'failed to identify the seriousness of Mr Nunes' condition and mistakenly considered that he was to blame for his frequent hospital admissions',

with the prison staff

'taking their lead from healthcare staff'.

It was described that his dental care was

'unsafe and subject to a catalogue of failings'.

Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, what discussions have you had with the Cabinet Secretary for health and your UK Government colleagues about the action the Welsh Government can take to improve healthcare at HMP Parc to ensure we have no more unnecessary deaths at the prison?

Thank you very much, Altaf Hussain. I know you have taken this up on many occasions and have been part of the Equality and Social Justice Committee’s inquiry on women’s experiences in the criminal justice system as part of your role. The deaths in custody at Parc earlier this year are deeply concerning, and our thoughts must remain with staff and family members affected by deaths. I just want to report that I met Ian Barrow, the head of HM Prison and Probation Service Wales, on 14 August. Ian provided reassurances on the progress made at Parc since the deaths in custody earlier this year, and the appointment of a new director. And I hope you will be able to visit and meet the new director, as other local and regional Members will, I’m sure. My understanding from that meeting is that Parc has made considerable progress since the spring. It’s now much more stable. Also, I’m sure you’ll be pleased to hear that I met with Lord James Timpson this morning, the new prisons Minister and the Minister responsible for probation and rehabilitation, and we’re visiting together—it’s a joint visit—HMP Parc on 30 September.

Thank you, Altaf Hussain, for raising this issue. One of the reasons we want to have devolved criminal justice is in order to prevent more people going into prisons, when there must be alternatives if they break the law. I want to ask you two questions about your conversations with the prisons and probation service head for Wales. One, have you had any discussions about how they could increase the provision of speech and language therapists in youth offending teams following the best practice of Neath Port Talbot, because it’s really important that young people who come into the criminal justice system understand what is going on? And if they genuinely cannot understand it, as they have a learning disability or a particular communication difficulty, we really need to question whether or not they are appropriately placed within youth offending. Equally, they need to be able to understand what the courts have said they must not do. So, that's one issue, and those professionals are really badly needed across Wales. Secondly, what discussions have you had about the release from prison of a lot of prisoners because of the gross overcrowding? What efforts have been made by the Ministry of Justice, working with local authorities, to ensure every prisoner has accommodation to go to because, otherwise, they will simply end up back in prison?

Thank you for that supplementary question, Jenny Rathbone. In fact, the very words that you said, that we need to prevent more people going into prison, were the opening words of James Timpson today. I hope many other Members across this Chamber will meet him. It was an inspiring and really hopeful meeting in terms of his mission and our shared mission to prevent more people going into prison. But, your point about the work you did particularly in terms of speech, language and communication in youth offending teams is very important. We thank your committee for the work you’ve done, because children need that support to thrive and live fulfilling lives away from crime. I hope my letter to you on 30 August actually helped you see the progress that has been made, and we do expect action as a result of the summit that was held. Also, your second point I raised with the Minister for prisons today, about ensuring there is accommodation for prisoners being released in the early release scheme. The 10 September, last week, was the first phase, and in October will be the second phase. I was reassured it had gone well in Wales. There’s been a good cross-Government effort, with Welsh Government housing officials working closely with local government. That’s a responsibility led by the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government.

Diolch, Alun. The Welsh Government will continue to work closely with the arts and culture sectors in Wales to ensure that they receive sufficient funding.

I'm grateful to you for that, Cabinet Secretary. We've seen over recent weeks and months the issues with the national opera and the royal college, who have both been forced by funding cuts to take decisions that are going to have a significant impact on the availability of arts and culture for people across Wales. But we've also seen since 2009 significant cuts in Wales that go beyond that which has been seen in either England or Scotland. The arts council's budget, for example, has been cut by 25 per cent in real terms in that period of time—bigger cuts than have been seen in England and Scotland. In terms of local government funding for the arts and culture sector, we've seen a decline from something over 4 per cent of spending to a little over 2 per cent of spending. So, we've seen cuts from the Welsh Government and from local government that are over and above cuts to other sectors in the last decade or so. This has created the crisis in the arts and culture sector, and I hope that the new Cabinet Secretary will be able to ensure that we reverse these cuts and we ensure that the arts and culture sector is funded properly and on the same basis as other parts of our responsibilities.

Diolch yn fawr, Alun Davies. Wales's arts and culture sectors are absolutely critical—they're an integral part of our society and nation's well-being. As you know, the mechanism for funding is direct funding to support the arts and culture sector, the arts council and the arm's-length bodies that we fund particularly, but the responsibility that we take in terms of the arts and culture budget. I think you will have been pleased that I did announce on 5 September an additional £5 million in revenue this financial year, and that was in addition to the £3.7 million additional capital funding package announced in July by my predecessor, Lesley Griffiths, to protect and preserve Wales's national treasures, which is crucial for the national library and for our national museum. But I'm confident now that the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership will be taking forward the very constructive discussions I've had throughout the summer to address this issue.

Cabinet Secretary, over the summer, Caerphilly County Borough Council a raft of potential money-saving measures, including withdrawing funding for Blackwood Miners' Institute and Llancaiach Fawr. This move has sparked complete uproar and protest, as well as a petition calling for a rethink, which has gained more than 10,000 signatures to date. Blackwood Miners' Institute is a vital community asset and has become renowned for being a thriving arts and entertainment venue for a range of events staged there. Indeed, in the past, the miners' institute has hosted the likes of the Stereophonics, Black Sabbath and Coldplay, as well as the place where the Manic Street Preachers held one of their first-ever concerts. And Llancaiach Fawr is an extremely popular Tudor manor house tourist attraction, enticing hoards of visitors every year. Now, both of these sites, Cabinet Secretary, are indeed an integral part of the community's history, and the council cannot be allowed to get away with this. I have raised my concerns directly with the leader of the council, and I sincerely hope that they do reflect on the public outcry and drop these plans. But, Cabinet Secretary, in case they decide to push ahead regardless, is there any scope for the Welsh Government to intervene and save these important sites? Thank you.

The situation that has arisen in terms of Blackwood Miners' Institute has been raised with me, and I've discussed it with many Members over the past few weeks—I think Delyth Jewell, Hefin David, Rhianon Passmore, all Members in the region and in their own constituencies. So, it is important it's on the agenda today in terms of questions. It is, obviously, as you know, an issue for Caerphilly county council, and they've just concluded their consultation. Obviously, the local authority has had their representations as well. It's a multi-funded organisation, one of the Arts Council of Wales's multi-funded organisations. They're also, of course—Arts Council of Wales—very engaged with the team at Blackwood Miners' Institute to offer support.

Diolch, Rhianon Passmore. All Welsh Government funding for the arts is channelled through the Arts Council of Wales, under the arm’s-length funding principle. To date, in 2024-25, the Arts Council of Wales has allocated £148,568 of funding to individuals and organisations based in Islwyn.

Thank you. Diolch. Blackwood Miners' Institute is a very much loved and used community venue in Islwyn. Islwyn's proud mining and industrial heritage is represented by the Blackwood Miners' Institute, an arts success story, one of Wales's most vibrant small arts venues, according to many arts organisations, with a 33 per cent increase in box office this year. The heritage of such a facility also can be seen in similar institutions that have been saved for the nation—my office in the restored Newbridge Memo; at St Fagan's National Museum of History, the Oakdale Workmen's Institute—preserved for the nation to celebrate the importance of 'stutes', as they were known throughout south Wales. But this 'stute' is also the beating heart of arts access for all across not just Blackwood, but far beyond across the Valleys and communities of south Wales.

So, Cabinet Secretary, you can understand the concern in Islwyn when Caerphilly County Borough Council began consultation to mothball the Blackwood Miners' Institute at the end of December. We all know that 14 years of Tory austerity cuts to Wales have left our public services and communities at critical breaking point and our local authority finances are very stretched, thus endangering Wales's cultural assets. But there is a national and local consequence to losing arts venues of significant importance not just in the Valleys, but across Wales. What proactive measures, Cabinet Secretary, will the Welsh Government's cultural department consider taking to audit such significant cultural facilities and to instigate conversations with local authorities across Wales about those cultural assets and safeguard Wales's culture for future generations?

Well, thank you very much, Rhianon Passmore, for raising this beyond the particular concerns that you have got, which are expressed across this Chamber, about Blackwood Miners' Institute, to that more strategic question about the future of our arts and culture in Wales. Because we have to make sure that it is not only sustainable, but resilient for the benefit of future generations and current generations.

So, I would just draw Members' attention again to our draft priorities for culture. There was full consultation on the priorities. It closed on 4 September, and importantly, it included local authorities and they also responded to it. It has a very clear focus on access to culture, its role in placemaking, community well-being and care of historic assets—those are the key principles. So, I hope—and I know the local authorities have responded—that they will also see this in the context of their own cultural assets, like Blackwood Miners' Institute, and prioritise support accordingly.

Of course, we know, I have to say, that local authorities are under incredibly difficult budgetary pressure, and if the Cabinet Secretary for local government was here with me now, she would be nodding, I'm sure, and saying, 'They are under huge pressures and it is about priorities.' It's important that that consultation has taken place and that does help express what local priorities are.

Cabinet Secretary, it's clear today that Members across the region have raised the same issue and I'm really glad that we've all used our questions to highlight what's going on at the Blackwood Miners' Institute; it is an important institution in the Valleys. Each year, the Blackwood Miners' Institute, as has been said, hosts hundreds of events and classes, gigs, drama, opera, music—everything you can think of is hosted there—as well as, of course, the Manics back in the day, as was pointed out by my colleague.

So, what steps are you going to take as a Welsh Government to work with stakeholders, including the Labour county council, who want to close the institute to save money? This important community asset must be saved. There has been a petition and there are already over 6,000 signatures on it. Do you agree with me that this is not the place, as Alun Davies rightly pointed out earlier, this is not the place to make cuts? These provide a vital service and a lifeline for many.

Well, views have now been expressed across the Chamber in terms of the situation with Blackwood Miners' Institute. I think the only thing I would want to add, acting Presiding Officer, is that officers at the Arts Council of Wales are monitoring the situation and keeping the Welsh Government updated on developments.

As we've heard from colleagues, there is a real danger to arts and culture within Islwyn and it's been called 'cultural vandalism' by some, being proposed by the Labour local authority. The Labour cabinet have gone about this cost-cutting exercise in such a ham-fisted way, it beggars belief. The vastly experienced trade union representatives I've spoken with are incredulous as to how the exercise has been conducted. It's clear that the public disagree with the council's plans. I was privileged to take part in a march of many hundreds of people in Blackwood town centre a couple of weeks ago, and was able to address the campaigners afterwards. In the right hands, Blackwood Miners’ Institute and Llancaiach Fawr are not burdens; they are assets.

What guidance does the Welsh Government give to local authorities on how to conduct appropriate and thorough public consultations? And what guidance, expertise and support can you give to local authorities to ensure that these cultural institutions are not lost forever?  

Diolch yn fawr, Peredur. Again, additional points of view from across the Chamber on the record today in terms of concerns raised. I think that it is for the Arts Council of Wales, particularly, as our arm’s-length body, to engage with local authorities. I have already mentioned our priorities for the culture draft strategy, which focuses on the role that local authorities can play. I think that the only final point that I would make is that the Arts Council of Wales itself, which has invested significant funding in arts activity in Caerphilly, including Blackwood Miners’ Institute, has provided a detailed response to Caerphilly council’s consultation.

Thank you for the question. We are ensuring that people in Wales, including pensioners, claim every pound to which they are entitled. Our 'Claim what's yours' Advicelink Cymru helpline is helping pensioners to find out and access financial support, including pension credit.

Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary. Putting political differences aside, I think no-one in this Chamber can question your commitment to improving social justice in Wales. However, the callous act by the UK Labour Government to remove winter fuel support for an estimated 500,000 pensioners is nothing short of shameful. You have said yourself that it will push people into fuel poverty, and your own party stated that 4,000 pensioners could die because of this decision.

You may blame the previous UK Government, but this is a political choice made by the UK Labour Government. This policy is the single biggest attack on our pensioners in a generation. So, Cabinet Secretary, will the Welsh Government look to implement its own version of the winter fuel support, to make sure that those people who helped build the communities that we all live in are supported this winter?

Well, thank you, James Evans. I'm sorry, but we can't put politics aside, can we, in terms of why we are in this situation and why the new Labour Government in Westminster is in this situation—this regrettable situation?

Political choices.

No, we can't put politics aside after 14 years of austerity. I remember that 2010 austerity budget—I was actually the finance Minister—and the shock that it was going to have. Cutting benefits, that was one of the main ways that they were going to recoup the money that they wanted to address through their austerity measures.

So, you can’t put politics aside, except that I would say again that I give my commitment today to ensure that we do everything that we can. We have had some good exchanges already about ways in which we can provide emergency support to households, particularly our pensioners. I will refer again to our Welsh benefits charter. We launched it in January. It does actually tell us how we can deliver benefits, governed by the Welsh Government, as a key part of our work to help people. All 22 local authorities have signed up to this, and I believe that we are working towards a coherent and simplified Welsh benefits system as a result of the launch of that charter.

Question 7, Darren Millar.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding—. I can't remember. 'Acting Presiding Officer', I think, is the correct term, isn't it? [Laughter.]

Diolch yn fawr, Darren Millar. I have written to the Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero and the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. Receiving pension credit is the key to unlocking winter fuel payments, and we are working with the UK Government to increase its uptake.

Cabinet Secretary, I am not impressed with that response, and neither are people in my constituency up in Clwyd West. Thirty-thousand pensioners in Conwy and Denbighshire are set to lose the winter fuel payment this winter. This is not the change that the Labour Party promised at the last UK general election. It is a cruel cut that will impact many vulnerable people across Wales, including many in my constituency. You've already been asked why the Welsh Government isn't stepping in to establish its own winter fuel allowance payment; you've got the ability to be able to do that. You seem to have plenty of cash for other things that people don't regard as a priority, so why can't you invest funds in this in order to protect the most vulnerable people?

And can you tell us also why you're not sticking up for Wales? You say that you've written to Ministers. Why haven't you been on the phone, demanding a meeting with these Ministers, in order to make sure that there are finances available to protect these vulnerable people in our constituencies this winter? Because, frankly, you're beginning to look more and more like Scrooge at the moment, because of the way that you're treating this situation.

Well, we do have an opposition debate very shortly—and, rightly—on this issue. It is important that you also, hopefully, will take responsibility for ensuring that we do promote the take-up of pension credit. Can I just be very constructive? I'm not going into the politics for one moment. We all have an opportunity in our constituencies, in our surgeries, to encourage people to take up pension credit, because it will unlock access to the winter fuel allowance. And I think what's important is, because there's been a real push for uptake by the UK Government—just to say, finally, acting Presiding Officer, I hope—on 9 September there were statistics that showed there's been a 115 per cent increase in pension credit claims received in the past five weeks, compared to the five weeks before 29 July. So, that is working, but we've got to get that message out this afternoon about the take-up of pension credit, and help people to access it.

And finally, question 8, John Griffiths.

Thank you for the question. Through our continued support for Sport Wales, who, in turn, fund national governing bodies and organisations such as Disability Sport Wales, we're delivering on our programme for government commitments to support and develop participation in sport, from the grass roots to elite level.

Thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary. It's very important that we have a more physically active population in Wales for health and well-being and general quality of life. And we know that our more deprived communities are less active than other people here in Wales, and the toll that takes on health and well-being is very marked. In fact, exercise is often referred to now as the miracle pill by those trying to be more preventative in our health sector in Wales. We know from Sport Wales and their activity tracker that our more deprived communities are far less active. So, there is quite a lot of work to be done, and there is an evidence base there to reinforce the need to get our more deprived communities more physically active and enjoying exercise and sport, Cabinet Secretary.

So, with that sort of background, could I ask that Welsh Government redoubles its efforts to work with key partners, national and local, to make sure that everything that can be done is done to address this widening disparity, which is having such a toll on our more deprived communities?

Can I thank John Griffiths for raising this and for demonstrating this throughout his term of serving Newport East, indeed, to promote the opportunities and the benefits of sport, and the outreach of sport, particularly in our most disadvantaged communities, and recognise that the Be Active Wales fund directly supports grass-roots sports? It offers grants from £300 to £50,000 to sports clubs and community organisations, and I know that some of that has reached some communities in your constituency. It's really also good to see—. I visited, with John Griffiths, Dragons Rugby Football Club in the summer, to learn about the community outreach work. And when we were there, it was actually a Barnardo's families day at Dragons outreach, and it actually was bringing young people in. We talked about the links to our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' and ways in which girls are getting more involved. I was really impressed. And also, I understand that you're organising a conference on this very subject later this month, to be an active Newport.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

We'll move on now to item 3, questions to the Senedd Commission. And the first question is to be answered by Hefin David and to be asked by Laura Anne Jones.

No. Not here? Right.

We'll move on, therefore, to question 2, which is to be answered by the Llywydd. 

We have established a communications project group on Senedd reform. The group consists of communication leads from public bodies with a role in communicating the changes to the Senedd in 2026. This includes the Welsh Government, the Electoral Commission and the boundary commission, and other relevant bodies are anticipated to join in due course. The purpose of the group is to ensure coherence of engagement activity between partner organisations. This provides assurances that resources are being used effectively, providing value for money and avoiding duplication.

Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you very much for your answer. A lot of constituents who I speak to since the boundary proposals came out are very unsure about what this means for the Senedd election. It's very good that group has been pulled together, but I think it would be far more effective if the Commission went out to speak to schools and those younger people who can actually vote now as well, because you need to engage with 16-year-olds, and also into women’s institutes and different groups to inform them of how the voting system is changing, and how the boundaries are going to change and affect them going forward with their representatives. I’d just be interested to know what wider work within actual communities you are doing. And how can the Commission support Members like myself and others in the Chamber to keep our constituents informed of all the changes that are happening here to our Senedd?

You're right to draw attention to the fact that much of the outreach work that the Senedd Commission does involves young people and schools and 16-year-old voters who will have the vote for the first time in 2026. It's important, therefore, that we use what we do currently, use those relationships that we have, to make sure that there is an understanding amongst groups in Wales and young people in Wales about the changes that are about to happen. I suspect that the Members here in the Chamber, many of whom will be putting their names forward for those elections in 2026, will have a leading role in making sure that everybody in Wales is as informed as early as can be of the major significant changes to the electoral system in Wales in 2026. We need to start early to do this, but I'm definitely sure that it will be ramping up as we approach nearer the election. All evidence shows that people become very aware of elections and any changes and voting processes very close to that election day itself. But that doesn't stop us from preparing the way and starting the work early.

Question 3 is also to be answered by the Llywydd and to be asked by Rhianon Passmore. 

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. The Senedd Cymru Welsh Parliament has been celebrating 25 years of existence this year. The next Senedd election in 2026, as voted by this place, will expand with the addition of 36 additional Members—

Rhianon, can you ask your question, please?

I'll go straight to the question. That's what we need to do. So, in that regard—

No, sorry, Rhianon—can you just ask the question on the order paper?

Oh, right, okay. Sorry. I don't seem to have that in front of me.

I have it.

Can you read it for me, Llywydd?

I can, in your best Welsh.

What assessment has the Commission made of the current levels of live broadcasting of Senedd proceedings on publicly funded television channels? That was the question, if I could now move on to answering that question.

Thank you, Llywydd. If you could answer the question, thank you.

As a Commission we have an agreement that publicly funded broadcasters can access our Senedd.tv feeds, which live broadcast Senedd proceedings. You’ll be aware that BBC Parliament provide live coverage of FMQs and highlights of Plenary proceedings every week. BBC Wales also broadcasts coverage of First Minister’s questions on Tuesday nights.

Diolch. Yesterday, BBC Two Wales carried live coverage of FMQs at 3.45 p.m., an hour and a quarter after. Although Senedd.tv rightly seeks to offer an accessible place where our proceedings can be viewed, it is very important for Wales that one of the world’s most prominent public service broadcasters, the BBC, funded by the taxpayer, supplemented in Wales by S4C, our Welsh language broadcaster, is able to work. So, it’s important that our proceedings are covered on key media platforms, and Wales’s citizens are able to access live coverage of proceedings, where possible. Every single Prime Minister's questions has been broadcast live on the main BBC channels, either BBC One or BBC Two, since 1990. What assessment and what dialogue is the Senedd Commission having with partners to ensure that our Welsh Parliament, central to Welsh democracy, sees questions to the Welsh First Minister broadcast live on one of the BBC's two main channels? Diolch.

Thank you for the supplementary. Before I move on, I do need to draw Members' attention to my register of interests in relation to the BBC.

Generally, you make a very important point, of course, that the accessibility and the interest of the people of Wales in their representatives questioning the First Minister is very important. As I said in my original answer, BBC Parliament does show First Minister's questions as live, and it's broadcast after the event, later on, by BBC Wales. We have an ongoing discussion with all our broadcast partners about the potential increase that can be there for our proceedings here in the Senedd. Very often, maybe our timings don't coincide with their timings as broadcasters. But you make an important point, that we need to continue to press our broadcast partners to be adequately reflecting the importance of the questions that are posed here and the answers given, because we are the democratic voice and the platform for the articulation of the views of the people of Wales, and they need to see and hear us. They can see and hear us directly, of course, via Senedd.tv, but as we know—and research does show us this—the vast majority of people in Wales consume any news about us as a Parliament directly through media, and public media outlets in particular. So, we need to redouble our efforts to persuade more of our partners to be broadcasting our work here.

Question 4 is to be answered by Joyce Watson and to be asked by Hannah Blythyn.

Thank you for your question. The Senedd Commission is committed to ensuring that the Senedd is an inclusive organisation free from intimidation and harassment. That also includes sexual harassment. This is underpinned by our dignity and respect policy, staff code of conduct and our grievance procedures. The last annual dignity and respect survey was conducted in December 2023. Following a review of the dignity and respect framework, further work has been undertaken to actively tackle sexual harassment in the workplace, including awareness raising, including a review of internet and intranet pages, posters across the Senedd estate and internal news articles and communications. Additional officials have been trained as dignity and respect contact officers and they've been actively promoted with staff as a way to raise any dignity and respect concerns, including sexual harassment. And mandatory dignity and respect training and awareness raising has been delivered to over 96 per cent of Commission staff, including a specific focus on sexual harassment and reinforcing the organisation’s approach to a zero-tolerance approach to sexual harassment at work.

Thank you for that comprehensive update. I think we recognise that policies are important, but, ultimately, it's about action and outcomes as well. I know we're all agreed in here that there can be no place for sexual harassment in any workplace.

I want to start by recognising the work that is done by other organisations, such as the Wales TUC, and in particular their excellent toolkit on tackling sexual harassment in the workplace. That helps make clear that sexual harassment at work can take many forms: it can be the physical, the verbal, even virtual and informal, such as WhatsApp messages and groups. We need to educate, but, ultimately, our goal should be zero tolerance and, obviously, an end to such behaviours. For me, it's not just about having the right and proper processes in place when it comes to individual accountability, but organisational accountability too.

Can I ask if the Commission will give consideration to adopting things like the Wales TUC toolkit? In addition, what work has the Commission undertaken to improve our processes here in the Senedd? I think you've already covered some of that, but if there's any more you can tell us, I'd be grateful for that. I think we do very much pride ourselves here on being a progressive Parliament, but there is a risk that we could fall behind on this compared to even, for example, the Houses of Parliament and their independent processes. Do you agree with me that in this place we should not trail, we should be trailblazers?

I launched that toolkit, so I'm fully aware of it. There are two things here. First of all, as an organisation, you have to be compliant. The Worker Protection (Amendment of Equality Act 2010) Act 2023 establishes a new duty on employers to take reasonable steps to prevent sexual harassment of their employees. Officials have reviewed the legislation to ensure the Commission's compliance, and we're confident that the policies and the processes that we have already in place ensure compliance against that new duty. A paper providing evidence and assurance of this is being prepared for the Commission leadership team ahead of the introduction of the Act, which comes into force on 26 October. And then, of course, from that, a plan will be developed to ensure appropriate changes to policy and procedures necessary to enable Members themselves to demonstrate that they are compliant with their duties as employers as well. There is mandatory training for Commission staff, but it's not mandatory for Members and their staff. Nonetheless, I note that a very high number of Members have received that training, and I note that further training for Members and their staff will be offered by the Commission. I would urge all Members of all parties to take advantage of that training.

Thank you very much.

No topical questions were accepted. 

We will move on to item 5, the 90-second statements. The first is from Lesley Griffiths. 

Thank you, Chair. On Sunday 22 September, the people of Wrexham and beyond will remember the fateful night 90 years ago when 266 men and boys failed to return home from their shift at Gresford colliery. At 2.08 a.m., a massive explosion in the Dennis section of the colliery caused what is one of the worst mining disasters in our history. 

This weekend, there will be a number of events to remember the ninetieth anniversary of the tragic loss of life. On Sunday, a service of remembrance will take place, as it has done for the last 42 years, at the Gresford colliery disaster memorial. I wish to pay tribute to the friends of the memorial, past and present, who have ensured through their considerable efforts that we have this poignant focal point for the families of the miners to remember their loved ones.

We're also fortunate to have the Wrexham Miners Project, led by George Powell, who, in restoring the Wrexham miners rescue station, is securing our mining history. At the rescue station, there is a wall bearing the names of the 266 men and boys who tragically lost their lives, and at 6 p.m. on Saturday, 266 candles will be lit in remembrance, and extinguished at 2.08 a.m.

Sadly, the loss of life 90 years ago was much higher due to a number of miners doubling their shift so they could go and watch Wrexham AFC play Tranmere Rovers the following afternoon. Since 2021, Wrexham players have had '1934' embroidered on the back of their shirts, ensuring the memory is kept alive. It is right that 90 years on we come together to remember the significant impact on so many families of that dreadful night.

At the end of August, Wales lost one the most versatile talents of his generation: the funny, the witty, the peerless entertainer, Dewi Pws. Born in Treboeth near Swansea, he qualified as a teacher, but achieved national fame through his music with Tebot Piws and Edward H. Dafis.

He was a wonderful actor, achieving further renown by playing the part of Glyn in the film Grand Slam, as well as several television programmes broadcast on S4C—Pobol y Cwm, Teulu’r Mans, Rownd a Rownd and many more. He became Welsh language children’s laureate in 2010, and his talent as a wordsmith was clear in some of his most famous songs, such as 'Nwy yn y Nen' won Cân i Gymru in 1971, 'Lleucu Llwyd' and 'Ysbrydion'. Indeed, the lyrics of 'Ysbrydion' are now engraved on the Maen Llog gorsedd stone of the National Eisteddfod, and Pws was received as a member of the Gorsedd with the bardic name Dewi’n y Niwl also in 2010.

He was also a talented athlete, playing as a winger for several rugby clubs, including Pontypool. But despite his many talents, he will be remembered by most for his mischievous humour and his unparalleled ability to make people laugh. Everyone was equal in Dewi Pws’s eyes, and he had that ability to forge relationships with people of all backgrounds and to bring a smile to their faces, or to inspire uncontrolled laughter among people, young and old.

Pws’s priceless contribution is a golden thread running through Wales’s popular culture over the past three generations, and his influence will continue to resonate for generations to come, and our thoughts are with Rhiannon and family.

'You are the salt of the earth, you are the bread of the world, darkness will not come to worry you, you are all light'.

Thank you, Dewi Pws, for bringing light and colour to this small nation you loved so much. [Applause.]

September is Childhood Cancer Awareness Month. Every year in Wales around 80 children and 180 young people under 25 will receive a cancer diagnosis, and many more live with significant long-term impacts. Cancer remains the biggest killer by disease of children and young people, having a profound impact on the families, devastated by losing a loved one.

Last Friday I was invited by LATCH, the Welsh children’s cancer charity, to witness first-hand the incredible work they do at Wales’s children’s hospital in the Heath. LATCH was established in 1983 by a small group of parents and families, whose children were undergoing treatment for cancer. They wanted to provide mutual support and to raise money to improve the lives of patients.

Over the years, the charity has grown and grown, and today LATCH provides practical, emotional and financial support to around 140 families each year, including free family accommodation on the same premises as the paediatric oncology in-patients; financial grants to support families with the unexpected costs they face when caring for a child with cancer, including mortgage payments when they’re unable to work; as well as clinical research focused on cancers affecting children and funding towards the children’s oncology unit, such as capital projects and training for staff. All of this is in partnership with the health board and it was clear from my visit how well the partnership worked in practice.

So, today I’d like to recognise and give thanks to the fantastic work of everyone working to ensure that children and young people diagnosed with cancer in Wales receive the best possible treatment and support.

Thank you for your work and for being there when families receive the worst possible news.

Thank you.

Before we move on to the next item, we have a motion to elect a Member to a committee, and I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion formally.

I move.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No, there is no objection from Members. So, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

So, we'll move on to item 6, which is a debate on petition P-06-1455, 'Protect the junior departments of the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama from closure'. I call on a member of the committee to move the motion—Rhianon Passmore.

Diolch, temporary Presiding Officer. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, thank you for this opportunity today to introduce the debate. This petition was submitted by Rebecca Totterdell, and closed on 19 June, with 10,560 signatures. The petition reads:

'Protect the junior departments of the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama from closure. The Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama has provided a junior music and acting programme to students aged from 4 to 18 for the past 25 years. The school currently sees around 300 talented young people through its doors each weekend, and many of those are on bursaries. It is the only such provision in Wales.

Due to financial difficulties the RWCMD is being forced to consult on closing the Young Acting and Young Music programmes at the end of this term. If the closure goes ahead, the RWCMD will be the only Royal School of Music without a junior department.'

The committee is extremely concerned about the impact of funding cuts on the pipeline for progression of talented musicians in Wales, and on our nation's cultural heritage as the land of song. The committee considered this petition on 24 June, and following a staff consultation, the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama confirmed on 19 July that it had taken the difficult decision to stop its regular weekend youth provision for musicians and actors due to significant financial challenges—the junior department. The petitioner said that a full closure of the junior department would mean Wales was the only UK conservatoire without a junior department, and, extensively, the only conservatoire in the world teaching to post-18 conservatoire entry level for our talented students to not exist. This would leave Welsh children at a profound disadvantage to their English and Scottish counterparts. There is also no parity of funding for the college’s junior department in comparison to England and Scotland, and no parity in terms of the Royal Academy of Music, the Royal College of Music, the Guildhall School of Music and Drama, and the Royal Northern College of Music. Wales must not offer less.

The college says its decision to stop weekend specialist provision does not mean full closure or complete withdrawal from its work with under 18s. It states that it remains fully committed to providing further opportunities for young people and creating pathways into professional training. Currently, these junior artists who are receiving bursaries from north, mid and west Wales cannot access specialist elite pathways of study in Wales. This scaling back of provision is a blow, and hugely significant for the college’s ability to support learners from poor backgrounds, as they cannot afford to travel to England. The petitioners told us that the royal college students had fought hard against this proposed closure, even while taking their GCSE and A-level exams, and have even demonstrated outside this place. We as a committee commend their commitment to protecting provision for those who follow after them.

This autumn, Senedd Members will be scrutinising the Welsh Government’s draft budget for 2025-26. How we minimise the impact of funding cuts on our cultural institutions in the current economic climate is a critical issue for Wales and for our young people. Last term we debated a similar petition, calling on Welsh Government to increase spending on other important cultural institutions. It is encouraging that, on 5 September, Welsh Government announced a £5 million uplift in revenue funding for culture and other arm's-length bodies, including the Arts Council of Wales. But the royal college of music relies on a different range of funding streams for its financial resilience. Our cultural institutions are vital to our nation’s historical and cultural legacy. And those earlier petitioners argued that every £1 invested in the sector leads to £5-worth of economic growth. And not counting the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama's commercial youth programmes, the junior specialist department youth arts itself was almost 50 per cent bursary students this year.

The economic impact of stifling music development and the nurturing of our young people’s musical talent is of grave concern, as is access to advanced pathways, the very top of the national music plan. As a committee, we wrote to the Finance Committee to highlight this. From the Finance Committee’s July debate on priorities for next year’s budget, we know that the impact of cuts on Welsh culture is actively high on the list for the Welsh public. And as I have said before, unless the Welsh Government steps in to safeguard institutions like the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama, then we are at a watershed moment in the regression of Welsh cultural life. This is without the devastating reduction of Welsh National Opera to a part-time outfit.

Our Welsh national cultural institutions and their education programmes are at the heart of our international reputation as a land of song, of poetry and culture. It is reassuring that a full closure of the junior department has been averted. The royal college has pledged that a period of review in 2024-25 will enable collective thinking with young people, staff, stakeholders and external UK advisers, as they explore an ambition to develop a national talent programme for Wales that identifies and nurtures top talent, develops their skills and builds pathways through to professional training. There is strong merit under the national music plan, that missing tier, that there is an independent external review to understand what is the best way forward, and within that, a complementary way with other Welsh cultural organisations to seek support for our young talent. That student voice needs to be heard and listened to. So, I thank the petitioners for bringing a very important issue to Members’ attention, to this place, and I do look forward to today’s debate. Thank you.

I’m pleased, as a member of the Petitions Committee, to say a few words in support of this petition as it’s an extremely important debate. And I don’t confess to be a musician of any kind. However, I have seen the value of music and drama and acting, and how they enrich the lives of so many young people, and we should value that immensely, so I’m happy to speak on this. The Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama is absolutely vital in attracting a wide range of talented musicians from across the United Kingdon, and the young Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama sees nearly 100 per cent of its students moving into higher education, all of whom will become great promoters of Welsh culture and art. And as we’ve heard, the closure of the junior department will result in 112 staff suffering redundancy and a loss of 400 students.

If the junior departments close, this will be an incredibly damaging blow to the arts scene here in Wales and threatens the future of an important part of our future cultural offer. It is a jewel in the crown we should be proud of and we should look to preserve. Sometimes things aren’t always about money, they’re about social value and the importance that these things bring. Approximately 50 per cent, as we’ve heard, of these students receive bursaries, with many of them paying minimal or no fee. If the department is to close, then these bursaries will no longer be available. Many of these young and talented young musicians will find that accessing music and drama training will become unaffordable, and this in turn has led to many of these children experiencing anxiety and stress over the future of their aspiring musical careers; it means that much to them.

Music and art are currently already under threat, as we know, in Wales, following severe cuts to the Welsh National Opera, and this further loss will have an incredibly detrimental impact on Welsh art and culture, and I support the petitioners for bringing this forward.

May I echo my thanks to those who brought this petition before us, and to the Petitions Committee, of course, for proposing a debate on this? And I would like to express my concern that we are, once again, having to discuss the impacts of cuts in culture, and their impact on young people too. After all, the ability to access cultural life, to participate and contribute to it, is considered to be a human right within the general declaration of human rights. But time and time again, we see opportunities to participate in culture being limited because of a shortage of funding. We gravely need a debate as a Senedd on the impact of these cuts, not only on the well-being of the people of Wales, but also the economy and reputation of Wales on the international stage.

Without doubt, the Welsh college of music and drama is under huge financial pressure at the moment, facing a cut of 6 per cent in public funding in this financial year. They need to make 10 per cent spending savings this year, which corresponds to £1.5 million, and closing the provision that we’re addressing today contributes 16 per cent of the 10 per cent needed. Now, this was something that the culture committee recognised following a discussion on this earlier this year. And the Chair, Delyth Jewell, who’s away on official Senedd business this afternoon, was eager for me to share the disappointment of the committee having realised that the sudden closure of the provision left a gap that isn’t easily filled. In light of this, the committee is also of the view that the Welsh Government must use its cultural strategy to address the issue. It is crucial that we create and support sustainable pathways for young people to excel in music and drama, and I’d be grateful if the Minister were to reflect on this in his response.

But back now to my view as a regional Member and Plaid’s spokesperson’s on culture, rather than the committee’s view, and there’s no doubt that the closure of the junior departments has been a grave blow to the young people who had opportunities and acting and music lessons there. I have met, or corresponded over e-mail, with many staff and pupils who were part of the programme, and I’ve heard directly what the impact of this will be, not only on them, but on those who are employed by the college. Indeed, we saw glorious performances from many of the students outside the Senedd earlier this year, and we heard from them how important the provision was for their own futures. Because we must bear in mind that this provision by the college of music and drama was the only junior conservatoire in Wales. Through its closure, this means that this will be the only music school in the UK without a junior department. I’d like to share with you, therefore, some of the comments I’ve received from many people, which summarise the impact.

Some children have now stopped playing. Some have struggled to find teachers. Some of the staff have formed a co-operative, with Cardiff music service administrating, but so many have fallen away that the chamber work in the afternoon may take a while to build up. Whilst children have also lost the opportunity to use world-class facilities and to interact with Royal Welsh College Music and Drama students and teachers, the loss of such a clear pathway to higher music education cannot be replaced by tutors working with the national music service or teaching the children privately. Our children are also at a massive disadvantage when it comes to auditioning for orchestras like the NCO or the NYO that really help secure places at music college. They even ask on the forms if the children are at a junior conservatoire, as it’s seen as an alternative to private music school. Some families have moved to England, auditioning for specialist music schools like Wells and seeking out scholarships. Another parent said that the consequences of the closure are drastic and the effects will be deeply seen in the future, as a whole generation of the most talented young Welsh artists have been disenfranchised and reduced to the elite few who can afford private tuition. This in turn will further impact on the diversity and cultural richness of emerging art. The Musicians’ Union has also written to us as Senedd Members expressing their concerns about the future of music in Wales, citing some of the other detrimental decisions that have been taken. Cymru gwlad y gân, the land of song, but, unfortunately, this will have an impact.

We must find solutions for culture. We have been saying for years now that the Welsh Government needs to take culture seriously. We are seeing the impact of the cuts. We are seeing the impact of this on young people’s mental health who are affected by this too. So, we don’t need excuses; we need solutions from us as a Senedd. This is a symptom of a broader problem; that’s what the closure of this provision is. I’d like to hear how the Welsh Government will tackle the issue and find the solutions to ensure that music and drama aren’t just for those who can afford it here in Wales.

I’m really pleased we’re having the opportunity to debate this petition here today, albeit it’s a bit after the event, because the provision has virtually closed and has gone. It’s a matter of deep regret, I think, that such a valuable, such a jewel in the crown, has actually been closed here in Wales.

I visited the Saturday sessions twice during the period that they were under consultation for being closed and met a lot of the children and parents, who came from a wide variety of backgrounds, very culturally diverse, and, as we know, a large percentage receiving bursaries to actually attend. It was actually heartbreaking, particularly on the last day, because I was there the last Saturday, and people didn’t know what other opportunities there would be. They didn’t have anywhere to go. So, they were saying goodbye to their tutors, who also didn’t really know where they were going to earn their money either. It just seemed so awful that this was happening here in Wales and that this was happening to something that was so important for the hopes and the future of our young people.

So, it’s good that we’re voicing all this here today, and I hope it will be possible for the Ministers to find some way forward to block this gap that has occurred. Because I do think that the consultation period was very short. There wasn’t much time for us to consider it. There were alternatives put forward, and people who worked there, members of the staff, I had quite a few come to see me in my constituency office. We had a little meeting and they had proposals for taking things forward, but it did look as if those alternatives were not really seriously considered. So, I hope that the Minister will be able to say what proposals there are to try to ensure that children can have these opportunities.

The other issue that they were very concerned about, and I was concerned about as well, was what would happen to all the musical instruments there, because they're absolutely fantastic musical instruments—a Steinway piano in every room, virtually, and other musical instruments that had cost thousands and thousands of pounds, mostly by donations from foundations that they'd been brought from. And some of the children had these in their care, and they were learning at home with them because they were not able themselves to afford to buy musical instruments at such a cost. In fact, very few people would be able to do that. So, I wondered whether the Minister would cast any light on how they're being used and what is actually happening to them.

So, I think the other points, really, have all been raised today about the only place that there isn't a junior conservatoire is here in Wales. And also, the other point is that the children were taught in Welsh and in English, which was the only facility that offered this. So, it just makes you think: why on earth did this happen? And I think that we should, as a Senedd, do all we can to highlight the loss that there is, in the hope that we can get some sort of progression and that the Government will do all it can to help.

Can I start by thanking the petitioners and those that signed the petition that meant that this petition debate came to the floor of the Senedd here today?

For most of this Senedd term I've served as the shadow Minister for culture under Andrew R.T. Davies’s leadership, and I've been very grateful for that because, genuinely, I feel very passionate about our Welsh cultural institutions. It's something that I personally, over the last three and half years, have become very personally invested in, despite the fact, to be blunt, it wasn't really something that I'd had a lot of experience or interfaced with before, because these are genuinely world-class institutions that make a huge difference in communities and in the lives of the people of Wales. But, too often, I've also found the job a little bit depressing, because we’ve often come here, talking about a service closing its doors or a service being downgraded, and this is just, unfortunately, another example of that. We've heard already of the massive impact that the royal college of music and drama was having every day on the lives of young people, transformational differences. I spoke to one parent in the last couple of months who felt that their child could only express and convey themselves and learn social skills through the work that the college had done. So, it's about far more than just the direct work that the royal college of music and drama would do through the junior academy, but, actually, the life skills as well that people pick up along the way.

Unfortunately, we know in last year’s budget that the culture budget was the one that was cut the most by the Welsh Government, and I think that is a shame, because in Wales I think culture is something that matters more. I don't think you quite get it if you live in other parts of the United Kingdom. It is something to be cherished, something to nurtured, and it is a real shame, as Julie Morgan has already said, that we're having this debate almost after the fact, after the time that this has already closed, and therefore it makes it difficult to be able to do much about it at this stage.

I did reach out to the college, knowing that this debate was coming up, to just get a different perspective on things, and I am sympathetic to the position that the college is in. We're talking about 10 years, essentially, of tuition-fee freezes, and, however well intentioned that policy is, and I'm not going to stand here and disagree with the intention of that policy, in any industry, in any business, if your incomes are frozen, that is a real-terms cut then in your ability to be able to provide the same level of service without having to change things internally. And, unfortunately, that leads to the difficult decision that we've seen the royal college take today. And whilst we've seen the royal college themselves come out and talk about some of the other work that is going on—I've got lists here of weekend immersive workshops, national open youth orchestra ensemble residency, holiday courses in production arts—these are all fantastic, but we all know they're not the same as the provision that we're losing by the closing of the junior department, and that's why I think that if we as a Senedd and the Welsh Government feel that this is important, then we need to make sure that this provision is funded. We can talk all the warm words we like about the importance of the junior academy, but, without putting the funding in place to support it, unfortunately the Welsh Government has practically condemned it to close. So, if there are still options at the thirteenth hour to save this, or to put alternative provisions in place in the future, I'd encourage the Welsh Government to look, as Heledd Fychan said, not just at the cultural impact that this would have but at the wider benefit that this brings to society, the pressure it takes off other Welsh Government services, and the good it does in our communities as well. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you to the petitioners for putting forward this petition, and thank you to Rhianon Passmore for opening the debate. There can be no doubting Rhianon Passmore's commitment to music in Wales.

To stretch the musical analogy right to its limit, you are a one-man band promoting music here in the Senedd and across Wales. You've even made me sing in a choir here.

Wales: the land of song, the land of poets and singers. Wales resounds with music. Music is part of our DNA. Gerallt Gymro wrote in the twelfth century about the talent of the Welsh people to sing in harmony, and I see it in my own children. My two daughters, both, before they could talk, they sang. Greta was singing 'Clap, Clap, Un, Dau, Tri' whilst Esther sang 'Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star', despite all of our best efforts to get her to sing Welsh lullabies. This morning, at five o'clock in the morning, Esther was singing loudly, 'Hei, Mistar Urdd'. Perhaps she will never be a musician, but it demonstrates that music is important to that three-year-old.

Wales's musical tradition is an important part of our lives in Wales, and we have taken that worldwide, internationally. Our musicians, our performers, have been on the world's most prestigious stages. But this didn't happen by accident; this has come about through effort and hard work—and, most importantly, through financial investment.

We can boast as much as we like that Wales is the land of song, but it doesn't happen in a vacuum. The accolade is meaningless if we just rely on the glory of the past, because that's what will happen, if schools like this and musical services are continuing to be depleted within our communities. Wales will be less musical, not more musical, than other nations, if we continue down this road.

We can mourn as much as we like today the loss of this junior school, but let's be very clear: this junior school is closing because of austerity, because of Tory austerity, which has been continued by this Labour Westminster Government. We will not be filled with any hope by Sir Keir Starmer's latest speech that

'things will get worse before they get better'—

darker tones than the 1997 theme tune. And whilst I was researching this debate today, it surprised me that Sir Keir Starmer himself was a junior exhibitioner at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama. He was there until he was 11 years old and benefited from learning to play the flute, piano, recorder and violin. He benefited from these services, but his very own policies are taking these services away from the children of Wales. They won't be given the same chance.  

Over the last few months, like Heledd Fychan and many others here, I've had countless letters and communications from constituents who work in this sector. The Welsh National Opera, the royal colleges—organisations that promote Wales across the world being forced to cut their services. 

The closure of the royal college's junior department will deprive our young people of the benefits of music and performance.

It's good for mental health, and, according to recent studies, music making has a variety of other benefits. It improves resting heart rate, motor skills, brain stimulation, and even immune system enhancement. If we want the best for our children in Wales, we should surround their lives with music and music making.

Since 2018, according to the charity Youth Music, the proportion of young people who consider themselves to be musical in Wales has declined to only 9 per cent. And only 11 per cent of parents of children under five believe that their children will receive sufficient music education at school. And in Wales, the land of song, remember, the majority of young people no longer feel that they are musical: 46 per cent, as compared to 57 per cent in England. 

The experience of the past should show each and every one of us here that austerity is a failed project. The loss of the junior department at the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama is proof of this. We need to stop believing in the fantasy economics of austerity. We need to properly fund our arts sector. We need to raise a new generation of musicians and performers in Wales. And when we do that, things will only get better. Diolch yn fawr.

It is a tragedy that we are having this debate after the royal Welsh college has already made the decision to close the junior department. And, in a sense, it's an affront to all the people who bothered to sign the petition that the royal Welsh college wasn't prepared to wait and see what solutions could be arrived at. I've no doubt that change was needed and was inevitable because of the financial circumstances, but I feel hugely disappointed that this decision was rushed ahead despite alternative proposals being made.

The abrupt closure is neither in line with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, with its commitment to collaboration, partnership and focus on future generations, nor the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023, which I appreciate the royal Welsh college is not subject to, but nevertheless, in the spirit of collaboration, it's not clever of them to be just marching ahead as if they were the only game in town, particularly as the tutors who put so much of themselves into teaching these young people were making so much effort to come up with alternative solutions, recognising that there was a financial problem and making concrete proposals to reduce the number of weeks of activity by up to half, in order to enable a reformulation of the funding to make it a sustainable proposition in the future. The senior management refused even to engage with their efforts to safeguard the interests of the current junior department and the future prospects of children who have yet to be born.

Rhys ab Owen is absolutely right that music and song are a fundamental part of all human beings' well-being, and it's particularly important that we sing to our children. That's one of the first things we can do. Even before they have the language to communicate in language to us, they, as you said, can sing.

So, two things, really. First of all, I want to absolutely reiterate the contribution that Rhianon Passmore is making to ensure that music remains a fundamental part of the new curriculum in our schools, so that all children get to learn about music and musical instruments, but we have to be realistic that not all schools are going to be able to provide the level of support and expertise that was on offer from the junior department. And it means that there is no pathway for those who really want to take their music seriously as an extracurricular activity and a possible career. So, this is an absolute tragedy.

So, Minister, in your response, I wondered if you could tell us a little bit more about the proposed Saturday academy, to be run by Cardiff and Vale Music Service, which I'm told by the royal Welsh college is going to be run in partnership with teachers who already have experience of the royal Welsh college junior conservatoire. Because, as a local sustainable initiative—. So, is this going to be able to embrace any of these young people who have already worked so hard on their music and their singing, and how will people be able to sign up for it? What is it going to cost? This is something that is not in the paper that has been provided by the royal Welsh college.

And secondly, the royal Welsh college put quite a lot of emphasis on the fact that, in England, there is this national music and dance scheme, which offers Government funding of means-tested bursaries of up to £3,000, as well as in Scotland, which obviously had not been provided by the Welsh Government in the past; this has been funded exclusively by the royal Welsh college. Can the Minister clarify whether the Welsh Government is considering adopting such a scheme in Wales, and if so, what would be the timetable?

I now call on the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Vikki Howells.

Thank you, acting Presiding Officer, and thank you to everyone who has contributed to the debate, and of course also to the petitioners. The number of signatures on the petition is a clear indication of the strength of feeling about this issue, and I know that the decision by the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama to stop its regular weekend youth provision for musicians and actors has caused concern and apprehension among parents and learners, and has also impacted on staff.

Culture, the arts and music enrich all of our lives, shape society and provide an insight into our history. The Welsh Government remains committed to ensuring these activities are accessible to children and young people in Wales and, to this end, one of my first meetings has been with the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership, to discuss the importance of culture and opportunities for engaging young people. And in addition, I will continue the dialogue between Welsh Government and the college as it shapes its own proposals for the future provision of music and drama.

I understand that previous discussions have been positive, with a focus on inclusive and sustainable provision in Wales. If I can turn now to the two specific questions asked by my colleague Julie Morgan: what is being done to engage with these young people? Well, I will say that as part of the wide programme of work set out in the national plan for music education, the national music service is working with key partners, including the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama and National Youth Arts Wales, to identify and provide support and signposting for our talented young musicians. This work is focused on ensuring that they have opportunities to experience performing to their best ability, with equal importance and support given to a broad and diverse range of genres of music.

And in relation to the question on the instruments themselves, I note that in its consultation response, the college notes that those learners currently borrowing an instrument will be entitled to apply for an extended loan until the end of August next year, with no hire fee for this extended period. And the college itself states that it remains committed to retaining its instrument collection and making these available for young learners in any future provision. However, I really must state that universities in Wales are autonomous institutions, with responsibility for their own academic and financial affairs, and that does include the decision by the college to close its weekend programme.

Funding for higher education in Wales is allocated from the Welsh Government to the sector via Medr, the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research, and each institution is responsible for managing its own budget, which includes funding from Welsh Government along with other sources of income. The college has not made a request for further funding from Welsh Ministers and nor would it be appropriate for them to do so. It really is not the role of Ministers to be involved in the operational detail of activity delivery, nor the routine financial management of an institution. These decisions are clearly a matter for the college, which is run by a team of professionals, overseen by a board of governors with whom accountability lies, and who support this decision. I appreciate that the college, like many other higher education institutions, is facing financial challenges due to a range of external factors, and this is something that I will be engaging constructively about with senior leaders across the sector.

Looking to the future, the college is considering how sustainable provision can be shaped to meet the changing needs of contemporary Wales, to invest in talent from all backgrounds, and provide national and inclusive services that do create those pathways that Members have spoken about so passionately—pathways into professional training. A number of Members raised the issue of the need for alternative provision, and I will say here that I am encouraged by the news of new provision launched by CF Music Education—it’s called Academi—and it covers Cardiff and the Vale from the end of this month. I won't have time to go into further detail, but if Members want to write to me, I'd be happy to share with you what I have there.

But the Welsh Government is, of course, fully committed to supporting music education, and it's funding the national music service with a significant investment, totalling £13 million from 2022 to 2025. This national music service is enabling every child and young person from the age of three to 16 to benefit from opportunities to play a musical instrument, including through schools programmes such as First experiences and Music pathways.

I understand that everyone involved will be keen to hear further detail on future plans. The college intends to undertake a period of review in 2024-25, and this will involve working with young people, staff, stakeholders and external UK advisers to develop a national talent programme for Wales that identifies and nurtures top talent. The college will consider limitations in music and drama education provision where social inequality creates barriers for the young people of Wales.

Finally, I will close by saying that I really do understand the frustration and concerns of learners, parents and staff, but I do also feel assured that genuine consideration is being given to future sustainable and equitable activity, and I intend to maintain communication with the college. I look forward to hearing more detail on these plans. Diolch.

I call on Rhianon Passmore to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd, and I'd like to thank Peter Fox in terms of his comments around the well-being of students; Heledd Fychan in terms of her comments around the cultural strategy and also in terms of the impact on Wales and individuals; Julie Morgan in terms of her very practical points in regard to the instruments, which has been answered, and in terms of the future of these pupils and sustainable teaching; and Tom Giffard on the need for cultural budgetary fairness. Rhys ab Owen, we cannot rely on glories of the past, I like that phraseology in terms of the land of song. And finally Jenny Rathbone, referencing the rights of the child and that ability to deliver for the children of Wales.

I also want to thank the Cabinet Secretary for her response and the green shoots that have been placed in front of us today, but I would actually say, in detail, that that review has to be holistic, and it must take in those external organisations that are involved in terms of that national pathway, in terms of a conservatoire model for Wales. I'd also like to thank the Business Committee for granting time for this important debate, and also Rebecca Totterdell, the petitioner, and all those other campaigners for their efforts, including Elizabeth Atherton, who have raised awareness of this hugely culturally important issue for Wales.

I hope the debate today has been useful in highlighting once again that we must do all that we can to ensure our cultural institutions have the tools that they need to survive and thrive in an uncertain future. We are rightly renowned for the work that we do here in Wales, including the birth of our new national music service, and it is up to all of us now to honour the national music plan in terms of a national framework and plan for our most talented youth across Wales. Diolch yn fawr. 

The proposal is to note the petition. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

We'll move on now to item 7, which is the Welsh Conservatives' debate on the winter fuel payment. I call on Joel James to move the motion.

Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. The decision to remove universal winter fuel payments has blindsided millions of pensioners who have now been put into a state of fear over the affordability of their winter fuel bills, which are predicted to go up by 10 per cent in October. But what is completely perplexing about this situation is that no explanation whatsoever has been offered by our new Labour Westminster Government as to why it is necessary, or why it is so urgent—indeed, so urgent that they have had to invoke special emergency provision measures and bypass parliamentary scrutiny of it. They have claimed rather ludicrously, and without evidence, I should add, that it was to stop a run on the pound.

They've also claimed that there is a £22 billion black hole in public finances, but this has been repeatedly shown to be disingenuous and manufactured by the Labour Party in self-imposing restrictions on UK public spending and backdating inflation-busting public sector pay rises to keep their trade union donors happy. Just 10 weeks before the election was called, the Office for Budget Responsibility audited UK public finances and there was no indication of a £22 billion shortfall. In fact, it would've been a breach of the civil service code if officials had knowingly signed off incorrect public finance estimates.

Quite frankly, it is clear to just about everyone here, including the Cabinet Secretary, that cutting the universal winter fuel scheme in this way is not only exceptionally short-sighted and callous, but it will risk pushing thousands of pensioners into fuel poverty. Over 100,000 will see it cut in my region alone. It creates a sharp cliff edge for those whose income is just above pension credit levels. Those who have 35 years of national insurance contributions and the full state pension are not eligible for pension credit, and now the winter fuel allowance, yet someone with 34 years of contributions is, meaning that those just over the threshold are most likely in danger of fuel poverty. We also know that there are almost 900,000 people who are entitled to but are not claiming pension credit. The reality is that this Labour Government will be taking a vital income away from those who most need it.

However, what is most alarming, as we have discovered, is that the new Labour Government has commissioned no impact assessment whatsoever on the impact of this cut. The Labour Party's own research has estimated that, by scrapping the universal winter fuel payments, excess deaths will increase by almost 4,000 people. So, the real question here is why the UK Government wants to do such a thing. Why would they want to cause such fear in pensioners, many of whom are vulnerable, disabled or suffering from health issues? And why would they want to take a decision that, by their own research, would cause the deaths of thousands? The truth is, acting Presiding Officer, that by cutting winter fuel payments and punishing vulnerable pensioners, they're ultimately paving the way for extremely painful fiscal policies and further tax rises, as we are, in all fairness, being continually warned about by the new Government. They will argue that if vulnerable pensioners have to pay, then so does everyone else.

They have manufactured this financial situation and are punishing pensioners so that they can turn around and squeeze every last penny out of the UK taxpayer, out of businesses and out of entrepreneurs. But as we have seen repeatedly throughout history, they won't use this money for good government, but to swell the state and most probably bung this place another £100 million for the extra 36 politicians that you so want but nobody else does. The fact that, without exception, no Labour MP supported the scrapping of this cut last week clearly shows the contempt and cowardice that they have for our country and our most vulnerable, and with all due respect, Cabinet Secretary, the contempt that they have for you and this Government. I'm sure that many people who voted for them in July are now thoroughly ashamed.

Acting Presiding Officer, there is no logical reason as to why scrapping universal winter fuel allowance should be done. Making older people, some disabled, some suffering from chronic and terminal illnesses who feel the cold more deeply, afraid to turn on their heating in case they get a bill they cannot afford neither makes moral nor financial sense. During this debate, we will undoubtedly hear about the human cost and possibly the increased financial cost of such a policy. I would like to remind Members across this Chamber to take a step back and look at the real reasons as to why the Labour Party have chosen to do this and are choosing to punish vulnerable pensioners. It is but the start of the pain that the Labour Party has in store for us and the Welsh people, and I would urge everyone here to support our motion. Thank you.

The Llywydd has selected the two amendments to the motion, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip to move formally amendment 1, tabled in her name.

Formally.

I call on Sioned Williams to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Thank you, Llywydd dros dro. Plaid Cymru agrees with the contents of the Conservatives' motion today and we will be supporting it. We share the concerns that around 400,000 households in Wales will lose hundreds of pounds' worth of support, following the decision made by the Westminster Labour Government to enable them to pay energy bills—. I'll start again. 

Plaid Cymru agrees with the contents of the Conservative’s motion today and we will be supporting it. We share the concerns that around 400,000 households in Wales will lose hundreds of pounds of support, following the decision made by the Westminster Labour Government, and we know that those bills are going to increase even further. But we also call on that Government to overturn that decision.

But our amendment, which adds to the motion, is crucial to this debate today, which is that we regret the fact that this cut is a continuation of the austerity agenda of the previous Conservative Government at Westminster. And I have to say that I disagree too with the way that Joel James has just rewritten the history of the past 14 years.  

That is a crucial point, in our view, because we are a party that totally rejects the ideology and policies of austerity. Austerity measures deepen inequality by exacerbating the hardship faced and felt by people on low incomes, while enabling the wealthiest to shoulder the lightest burden.

Life expectancy at birth, which is a key indicator of a nation’s health, has declined since 2010 as a result of austerity, according to the London School of Economics. It’s an entirely ineffective and unfair economic policy. It is about saving money, yes, but the UK debt increased every year under the Conservative Governments. So, it hadn’t achieved what the politicians such as George Osborne had said it was going to achieve.

What it did was it transferred money from the poorest to the richest. As we live with high levels of child poverty, with food banks now a part of everyday life for millions, the billionaires of these isles have seen their wealth go up and up. And it was your party on the Conservative benches that was the architect of austerity, and you must be held to account for that.

Yes, it’s true that you didn’t withdraw this payment from pensioners, although you did consider doing so in 2017. But you did cause pensioners to make difficult—impossible, indeed—decisions, such as between eating or heating. Conservative Governments since 2010 made the wrong decisions—decisions that weakened the economy and damaged public services, and led to so many other cuts that impacted the most vulnerable members of our society.

It is hugely disappointing and hugely concerning to see Members of Parliament from Wales, who were elected on a promise of change, voting in favour of cutting the winter fuel payment, or choosing not to oppose the cut by abstaining. How spineless, how shameless, how unprincipled. Reports by Age Cymru, the older people’s commissioner and Carers Wales have shown that poverty is rife among the older members of our society. Those who are disabled, or who live with a chronic health condition, are even more likely to be impacted by this cut, according to the organisations that campaign for their welfare and rights.

Up to £300 goes a long way to help with energy costs over the winter, especially as the average annual energy bill is expected to rise by almost £150 next month. Withdrawing this support at short notice like this will drive many pensioners into fuel poverty and much further into debt. Being unable to keep your home warm can have serious consequences. A warm home isn’t just a comfortable thing to have; it’s vital to health, particularly for older people. A cold home increases the risk of stroke, of respiratory disease and of suffering a fall or other injury. And it can kill. 

The most recent statistics available noted that there were 800 excess winter deaths, as they are called, in Wales in 2021-22, 240 of which can be attributed to cold homes. The United Kingdom is the sixth largest economy in the world, and it has 165 billionaires living in it. Cutting fuel support for pensioners isn’t the solution to economic problems, nor should it ever be. More austerity is not the answer if we want to see fairness and prosperity for the people of Wales, and the Welsh Government needs to stand up for them in the face of this. So, my question to the Government is this: haven’t you had enough of having to make up for policy mistakes made in Westminster? Show the people of Wales that you are putting your nation before your party.

Can I remind Members of the time that the Conservatives called for the end of free prescriptions for all? To quote Darren Millar, it's providing free prescriptions for paracetamol to millionaires. He was completely opposed to universal provision, saying it should be targeted to those who need it.

I have a personal interest. I started to receive my state pension in July. I have never received a winter fuel allowance payment, and now I will not. Do I need it? No. Do Paul McCartney, Andrew Lloyd Webber, Elton John, Sting or Mick Jagger need it? I could go on for the next four minutes naming people who are very wealthy who don't need—[Interruption.] Yes.

What about the guy who works in our local ironmonger who's going to find himself £13 over the threshold? He's going to lose that £300. I agree that there's a debating point about people who pay 40 per cent and 45 per cent tax, but with what your Government is proposing, there's no impact assessment, your own figures are saying 4,000 premature deaths, and there's a cliff edge to take this benefit away from pensioners through the coming winter.

I'll answer the last bit, because I can, and the rest of it's coming up in the speech. We don't know how many people are going to die this winter. You can't know how many people are going to die this winter, because you don't know what the weather's going to be like this winter. If the weather goes down to -20 degrees C—[Interruption.] If the weather goes down to -20 degrees C, or stays above freezing point, it will have a huge difference.

Will you take an intervention?

Certainly, Darren. I did give you a mention.

You're the chair of the cross-party group on older people. Don't you think you ought to reflect on the views of those organisations representing older people, who are absolutely livid about this cruel decision by the new UK Labour Government?

Certainly, I will reflect on what they say.

What do people use their winter payment for? Some donate it very kindly to a foodbank; others use it for winter breaks. Data the ONS collected between 2016 and 2018 shows that more than one in five households in Britain where the main householder defined as the person responsible for household finances is over 65 have household wealth of over £1 million. It also shows that one in four people aged over 65—that is, 25 per cent—lived in a household with a total wealth of over £1 million. To people like me, £1 million is a lot of money. I can understand why people on the Conservative benches don't think £1 million is a lot of money. What is £1 million? For many farmers, it's 10 years of basic farm payments. I consider it a substantial amount.

A cut-off point at receipt of pension credit is wrong. That's answering you, Andrew, on this. It would be wrong if everyone eligible for pension credit claimed it. We know many eligible do not. A fairer measure would be the one the Conservatives use for child benefit. All families get child benefit, but dependant on earnings, a child benefit charge is collected via the taxation system. I will again call for all income to be taxed in the same way. We have income tax, we have dividend and we have capital gains, and if you get anything apart from income tax, you pay an awful lot less. 

Compare the treatment of pensioners to younger people. Young people have been penalised since the Conservatives came into Government in 2010. Tuition fees have been increased and are currently £9,250 a year, and there's a call for them to be increased. How much interest you're charged depends on which plan you're on: 4.3 per cent on plan 1 or plan 5, 7.3 per cent on plan 2, 4.3 per cent on plan 4, 7.3 per cent if you're on a postgraduate loan plan. You'll pay 9 per cent of your income over the lowest threshold out of the plan types you have. You'll only have a single repayment taken each time you get paid, even if you're on more than one type of plan. For a number of young graduates, the actual tax rate is 29 per cent, not 20 per cent. For postgraduates, it's 6 per cent over the postgraduate loan threshold of £21,000 a year, and becomes 9 per cent when you get paid more. 

There's a discussion to be had over the universality of support. There's a balance between ensuring no-one misses out and the cost of provision. Can I just talk about Plaid Cymru's policy on state pensions in an independent Wales? It is not to fund them, in the bizarre belief that England would fund them. I find no country in the world, created following a split up into different countries, where one of the countries funds the state pension of the other country created by the split. Ukrainians do not have their state pensions paid by Russia. Not even the SNP, whose grasp of economics is tenuous, have suggested that this would occur. 

Peter Fox.

What on earth was that about?

I can explain it to you, if you can't understand.

Peter Fox.

Diolch, acting Llywydd. We know that leadership requires making difficult decisions, but sometimes those decisions will be wrong. And when we know wrong decisions have been made, it takes courage to stand up for your constituents and stand up against decisions that will, ultimately, harm those constituents. Sadly, we did not see any courage from the Labour MPs here in Wales last week when it came to standing up to Keir Starmer and his political decision to remove the winter fuel payments from up to 400,000 households in Wales. Now, in Monmouthshire an estimated 21,000 pensioners are set to lose out on the winter fuel payment. That payment, brought in by Rishi Sunak, was incredibly important to supporting pensioners through harsh winters, and now we are seeing this vital support being ripped from them in order to help fund things like the massive pay rises to train drivers who already have a great wage. I must say I'm incredibly disappointed by the u-turns that have occurred on either side of the election from Labour MPs. Before the election, the current Prime Minister released a video with the caption ‘Pensioners deserve security in retirement and that is what my Labour government will deliver’. This simply isn't the case, and we can see that now.

Sadly, every Labour MP, including the new MP for Monmouthshire, voted against the interests of Welsh pensioners or abstained, abdicating their responsibility to their constituents. I wonder how many people would have voted for these new MPs if they knew they were having their heating support cut to go toward Labour's pay plans. The decision to scrap the winter fuel payment will do nothing but harm pensioners across Wales. It was a clear political choice. There were many, many other ways that Keir Starmer could have found money before he and the Chancellor decided to make our pensioners pay.

Now, I respect the First Minister's recent remarks where she suggested she is happy to be unpopular with her colleagues in Westminster when needs be. However, words are cheap. We now need to see action. It is only by voting with our motion today that this Senedd can send a message to Westminster that Labour MPs were not able to do: that we believe in supporting our pensioners through difficult winters, and that we will not idly stand by and let Keir Starmer make political decisions to remove support from the most vulnerable.

I do regret some of the comments that we've heard this afternoon, particularly, if I may say so, Mike Hedges's contribution. Imagine if a Conservative government had done this. What would your comments as a Labour Party have been then?

And I want to return to those people we all represent, and the fear in our communities at the moment, because people will die as a result of this decision. We know that because of the austerity policies of the Conservatives, people did die as a result of those policies, and to continue with those austerity policies—. And a political agenda—that's what it is. Sioned Williams was absolutely right in that regard. That's what that means to people in our communities.

So, fine, we can all finger point, we can play political games, but our role here in the Senedd is to find solutions, and to ensure that the people of Wales do receive what they deserve. I've been reminding myself recently of the universal declaration of human rights. I mentioned it when I talked about culture, but I think it's important that we do remind ourselves of what it means in terms of people's rights to adequate quality of life, to their health and prosperity, and also the right to certainty in old age. That certainty and right to an adequate standard of living. It's not a choice, because it's not a choice between heating and eating any longer.

We are talking about the basics of human life. One in six older people in Wales is living in comparative income poverty. Wales has a higher percentage of older people than other parts of the UK. I do note that the Cabinet Secretary has shared with us recently the Welsh Government's support for households, and there's a lengthy list of the kinds of support available there. But I return to Sioned's point, who asked: surely you must be angry that the Welsh Government has to spend what little money it has filling gaps left by the Westminster Government—what the Westminster Government should be providing to the people of Wales.

I'm also gravely concerned—Sioned mentioned the normalisation of foodbanks. This is something that we should not be normalising. It is a scandal that there are more and more people, more and more families, more older people and so on, having to rely on foodbanks in order to get something as basic as food to eat. In the list of household support from Welsh Government, there is reference to the fuel bank. We are normalising another bank. It's wonderful that the provision is available, but can we just question, once again, why we need a fuel bank in order to tackle one of the essentials of human life? Why can't we do something radical like just ensuring that people have that what they need, so they can have food and a warm home?

There is an ideological problem here. It is easy to point the finger at certain decisions, but it's something that we in Wales have to start finding solutions to, and we need the Labour Government in Westminster now not to continue with these damaging policies, which will impact people in our communities, which will mean that more people will die in their homes, which means that they are afraid to warm their homes this winter. So, let's have a reality check, please, and some action from the Government here and the Government in Westminster.

Today we've come here to show our support for some of the most vulnerable people in our society, our pensioners. The UK Labour Government's decision to remove the winter fuel payments has placed an additional and unacceptable burden on the elderly here in Wales. For pensioners in Brecon and Radnorshire, the removal will mean 23,898 people will lose their support. That support is not just a nice thing to have; for many, it's a matter of survival. Winter fuel payments have long been a vital lifeline for our older people, helping them to heat their homes during the cold winter months. Without it, pensioners face the harsh reality of rising fuel costs. Across the UK, energy bills have increased due to the war in Ukraine, and the cost of everything is rising, and at that time, the Labour Party, who said it's there to support people, has decided to punish pensioners by taking away most of the support they have.

Many pensioners live on fixed incomes, often relying on modest pensions that barely cover the essentials. In Wales nearly one in five pensioners live in poverty, with many already struggling to get the basic needs. They are not all well-off, as some Members think they are; most are struggling and are living week to week. In rural Wales, where rural isolation is already a significant issue, the impact, I think, is even more profound. Rural fuel poverty in Wales is significantly higher than in urban areas. Many elderly residents live off-grid and far from support networks, and it makes it even harder for them to access the support when they need it. Without these payments, our pensioners are at risk of fuel poverty, forced to live in freezing conditions that jeopardise their health and well-being. As has already been said, 4,000 pensioners could potentially die because of this decision, and I think most of them will be in rural areas.

These people are our parents, they're our grandparents, they're our neighbours and our friends. We owe them more than a cold winter at home and empty promises. They built and fought for the communities that we all call home. They deserve to live out their retirement in comfort and security, supported by a country that they have supported their whole lives. What they don't deserve from this Labour Government in Westminster is to live in fear of hypothermia and crippling debt at home.

Today I implore this Welsh Labour Government to take decisive action. We cannot in the Senedd sit idly by while the most vulnerable members of our community in Wales are left to fend for themselves. The Welsh Government must step in where the Labour Government in Westminster has failed. Whether it's through a Welsh version of the winter fuel payments, expanding existing support schemes, or working with local councils to provide direct assistance, we must quickly act to support our pensioners this winter.

The First Minister has said on a number of occasions since taking post she will put Wales first and her party second. This is the time to walk the walk and not talk the talk. I say to Labour Member's today: back our pensioners, back Wales and vote for this motion before you today. Diolch.

Can I firstly say how disappointing it is to see such empty Labour benches today, when we're talking about the winter fuel payment? For many pensioners, cold weather isn't just uncomfortable, it's dangerous. For pensioners, particularly those on low incomes, winter fuel support has been a lifeline. The Labour Government decision to remove the vital benefit will force millions of pensioners to choose between heating and eating; it could kill, as has been said before, 4,000 people, and that figure comes from Labour's own research in 2017.

Ministers say it's about filling a black hole, but the only black hole that we have seen filled recently is the black hole in Keir Starmer's wardrobe filled by a Labour donor. The Government's sums just simply don't add up. Cutting winter fuel support will save around £1.5 billion. Responding to the outcry, the UK Government has said that it will ensure every person entitled to pension credit will get it, but if every person eligible for pension credit got it, it would cost the Government an additional £3.43 billion—more than twice the amount they will save by cutting winter fuel support, so is this really about saving money, or is it about making decisions that hurt those who are least able to fight back? This is not a cost-saving measure that benefits the economy, and it doesn't take into account the hardship it will cause, especially for those on a low income that are just above that threshold for receiving pension credit. 

The economic facts are clear, but what we should be talking about today is the human cost. I heard from a pensioner in the Monmouth constituency, a woman in her 70s, who was so worried about paying her heating bills that she was forced to take a part-time job. It is appalling that this lady felt that she had no other option than to do this. One point six million disabled pensioners will be stripped of their payment according to the Government's own figures, so that's seven in 10 disabled people over pension age that will lose their winter fuel payment. More than eight in 10 of those are aged 80 and over.

Only back in May, Monmouthshire's new MP, Catherine Fookes, said that pensioners should not choose between heating and eating, yet, once elected, was happy to sell out our pensioners and strip them of this vital lifeline, putting party before pensioners. 

The Welsh Conservative group today are calling for the UK Government to reconsider. We call on Labour's Senedd Members to unite behind us and send a strong message to Westminster that these cuts are wrong, and if they go ahead, a staggering number of pensioners will face a winter of fear, anxiety, and cold days and nights, and, in some cases, death. We need a Government that understands that supporting pensioners is not just an economic responsibility, but a moral one. I urge you all to support our motion today.

I am conscious that we have had a lot of speakers and I have limited time, but I did want to say a few words, particularly on this really important subject. We all know that politics is about choices. We are all here in a very privileged position, as elected officials, particularly those in Government, who have levers at their disposal to create better lives and surroundings for the people of Wales. And in the world that we are all living in today where uncertainty and unrest seem to be the norm, creating a stable, secure environment for absolutely everybody should be our main priority, particularly for the elderly, who have worked and contributed to our taxation system their whole lives, and must be supported in their retirement and old age, which, let's be honest, is not exactly the most easy period of one's life.

As many Members may be aware, we have been contacted by organisations such as the Motor Neurone Disease Association who have had considerable concerns about the impact that this payment cut will have on people living with the disease, as it's a cruel condition that sees a gradual breakdown of muscles in the body, and extra heating and comfort is key in helping maintain quality of life at an extraordinarily difficult time. Many diseases are, indeed, not means tested, so when someone on £13,000 who also has M&D, who would have put their heating on for longer, can no longer afford to do so, I really hope the Labour Party cease to try and claim that they are indeed the compassionate ones.

I hear a lot here in this Chamber about the £22 billion black hole. Well, it's interesting that UK Ministers forgot to mention that £9 billion of this is indeed from your Labour Government's decisions down the M4. But then again, it's hardly surprising that Keir Starmer's head is all over the place as his mind is clearly preoccupied with trying to justify why his Lord pals are paying for his work clothes and his wife's dresses. But these are just some of the most recent revelations in a line-up of £76,000-worth of donor goodies since 2019. How very socialist.

For 14 years, the Welsh Conservatives in this Chamber have been blamed and held to account by the Welsh Government for things the Conservative UK Government did down the road, yet during the first opportunity for scrutiny yesterday, the First Minister distanced herself immediately from Keir Starmer and abdicated responsibility. The public are already getting sick of hearing, 'Fourteen years of Tory chaos' as a tagline for the Government who promised change, but I guess you need someone to blame if you're going to be so cruel in Government decision making. I would defy any Member in this Chamber to honestly say that they support pensioners being cold this winter. It's a nasty, unnecessary policy, and, if this is just the start, then I dread what is yet to follow in the next four years. This Welsh Parliament was literally created to make a change for the people of Wales and allow decision making to be closer to home, so I really hope your Government will show some dignity and respect towards the elderly, and step away from party lines by doing something that will actually benefit the lives of 400,000 people across Wales. Thank you.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Thank you. I welcome this opportunity to discuss the issues related to the winter fuel payment, and I thank the Conservatives for putting forward this motion.

It is important, colleagues, to remember the context within which the changes to the winter fuel payment were made. There is a £22 billion black hole in the public purse, and difficult decisions are now being taken by the new UK Government as a result, as has been said across this Chamber, of 14 years of Tory austerity and economic mismanagement. Energy prices remain significantly higher than they were at pre-crisis level, and it is disappointing that Ofgem have announced an increase to the price cap from October to December, and I shall be meeting them shortly. But, Llywydd, we do need to use all the levers and powers that we have in Welsh Government to support older people across Wales affected by these changes.

I can see that Janet Finch-Saunders wishes to intervene on the Cabinet Secretary. Are you accepting the intervention?

Happy to.

Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I did try to intervene when another Member spoke before, but I don't think I was noticed. Anyway, just on the point the Minister's just made, this £22 billion black hole. Where's the evidence of that? Nobody, and I mean nobody—any Minister in the UK Labour Government or the Welsh Labour Government—can actually inform us as Members where this black hole is present. What we do know is that, previously, the Conservative Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, the right honourable at the time, still is actually—he actually maintained that he would support the fuel payment. And, in fact, our economy was, on growth, the fastest growing economy in the G7 and also inflation brought right down. Green shoots were well and truly shooting up. Then people wanted change, and this is what you've got with the Welsh Labour Government. Can I ask you, Minister: will you provide all Members of the Welsh Parliament with a copy of the notes you must have had from the UK Labour Government saying that this £22 billion black hole exists? Because, frankly, my dear, I don’t believe it.

Well, you can believe what you like, Janet Finch-Saunders, but I hope will listen to and believe the next point I'm going to make. This £22 billion hole, which has been revealed—. Also, we recognise that we found out—the Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, found out—that the former Chancellor, Jeremy Hunt, failed to account for the public sector pay rises that were recommended by the independent pay review bodies. Well, only yesterday we were pleased to have a statement from our Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language where we have made that choice, that choice for 190,000 people to get above-inflation pay rises. Well, Jeremy Hunt, if your Government had won—thank goodness they didn't—where would that money be? That £22 billion hole is there and it's growing. When you look at the—. And also, your Government oversaw deficits in Home Office and defence budgets. But I do also encourage Members on the Conservative side to read the Office for Budget Responsibility report, because last week they gave a very good account of the bleak outlook on public finances that we'll see ahead of us.

There would be more credibility in this black-hole argument if, actually, the Labour Party had the power of their conviction and put this commitment to maintain the winter fuel allowance in their manifesto. They did it in 2010, they did it in 2015, they did it in 2017, 2019, but mysteriously not in 2024. Why was that?

Of course, until you get in office, as you know, you don't know the situation in terms of your public finances. It was revealed, and indeed the UK Government has been very open about the situation, the financial circumstances. Yes, we await a budget, don't we? We await a budget and of course the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language will be, as we will be as the Cabinet, putting forward what we feel Welsh Government needs, what Wales needs, standing up for Wales in terms of that budget. But I want to go on, Llywydd, to the point about what should we be doing: what levers and powers should we use to support older people across Wales anyway, as well as those who are affected by these changes? Because it is true that receiving pension credit unlocks older people's entitlement to a winter fuel payment.

And we are supporting the UK Government's campaign. I mentioned in response to questions earlier on that actually the UK Government campaign has resulted in a 115 per cent increase in pension credit claims received across the UK in the past five weeks, compared with the five weeks before 29 July. So, we must improve on that take-up. Of course, pension credit is a passport to a range of other support; cold weather payments, in addition to the winter fuel payment.

But there are other routes to help older people, and I'm very grateful that my letter to all of you, MSs and MPs, was mentioned earlier on by Heledd. It outlines all of the benefits that people can access, and I hope you are using that to reach out in your surgeries. Older people may receive help, for example, to pay their council tax, and there are almost 102,000 pensioners who are now in receipt of the council tax reduction scheme, with over 75,000 pensioners paying no council tax at all. [Interruption.] But there are still more who could claim that council tax reduction scheme. So, please, I call on you to help get that access to that entitlement. Also, pensioners can also get housing benefit to help pay their rent; over-75-year-olds may be eligible for a free tv licence. We've got to get money into more people's pockets, and pensioners' pockets, so please just encourage people throughout Wales—not just older people—to contact Advicelink Cymru's 'Claim what's yours' helpline. And it is important to recognise the impact of that helpline, because last year that helpline helped over 36,800 people to claim more than £10.4 million in additional income.

I mentioned earlier on in answers to questions that we're investing £30 million a year into our Warm Homes Nest scheme to tackle fuel poverty. The crucial point about that is also that the Nest scheme provides free energy advice to all householders in Wales, including older people, through that Nest helpline. Energy debt is a big concern for many householders. [Interruption.] I'm going to continue, because I've had two questions already and I'm going to continue with my comments now.

It's a matter for the Minister whether she's accepting an intervention and she has taken two already.

It is a matter for me. I might indulge you later on. I'm anxious, Llywydd, not to overstep the mark in terms of my time to respond. [Interruption.] I think it's very important—

You have more time, Minister.

It's very important that our Nest advisers can direct households through Citizens Advice for debt management support, and I think it's also important that we reach out to energy suppliers. They have to support their customers through this difficult time with fair and affordable payment plans and emergency support, where required. And there's more we can do, and we touched on this earlier on this afternoon, to reform energy supply services. We call on Ofgem to introduce a social tariff to protect the most vulnerable householders, and we welcome the UK Government's willingness to consider this. We also look, as I said earlier on, at the unfair issue of standing charges—profoundly unfair on customers on low incomes—and we repeatedly called for urgent reform and a lower standing charge for customers on prepayment meters in October last year. And I was pleased to see Ofgem's discussion paper on this.

Of course, also, the emergency funding for vulnerable people—again, the discretionary assistance fund. Not enough pensioners are taking up this discretionary assistance fund. That's why my letter to you was so important, so that they can reach out and get that emergency help to help with fuel and fuel costs as well. But I do feel that the Fuel Bank Foundation—£5.6 million we've put into this—does actually help pensioners and all people who buy off-grid fuel, which was mentioned this afternoon as well. It has helped almost 155,000 people. So, yes, I'll take your intervention now, because I'm just about to wind up my—.

Oh, that's very generous of you, Minister. You're clearly proud of a number of schemes you've outlined to the Senedd here today. Are you proud of the policy to remove from 400,000 pensioners the winter fuel payment?

Well, this is my statement regarding support for people in Wales. 

It's important that I account for what we are doing as a Welsh Government. I look forward to attending—and I know Mark will welcome me—the cross-party group on fuel poverty next week. It's our colleagues and partners who we need to engage with. I look forward to meeting the new older people's commissioner, Rhian Bowen-Davies, to discuss progress on the pension credit take-up campaign, which was so ably developed by her predecessor. I'll be working with Cabinet colleagues for health, social care, local government and housing to spread the pension credit and Welsh benefit charter campaign. And finally, most importantly, Llywydd, I will be chairing the next inter-governmental meeting on work and pensions with the UK Government. 

And we have got to work together at every level of government to support older people and households of all ages. We have to take this action. We have to support those—and I will finally finish on this point—people who have been most affected by 14 years of austerity and Tory economic mismanagement. We've a duty to turn this around at all levels of government and reach out to those most affected by this shameful legacy of the £22 billion black hole. Diolch.

Mark Isherwood to reply to the debate. Mark Isherwood.

Diolch, Llywydd. Thanks. I'll start by thanking Joel James for opening this essential and key debate by referring to this short-sighted and callous decision, which has blindsided millions of pensioners, causing fear about their ability to pay fuel bills this winter and pushing thousands more pensioners into fuel poverty. As he said, Labour is paving the way for extremely painful fiscal policies and tax rises. 

I'm grateful to Sioned Williams for confirming that Plaid Cymru will be supporting the motion against the decision taken, calling for this place to call for that decision to be changed. She, of course, pointed out that that decision was a Westminster Labour Government decision and, as she said, warm homes are vital to health. I have to disagree on one point: she described austerity as an ideology, although my dictionary describes austerity as 'not having enough money', and as such it was an inheritance from Blair, Brown and Balls back in 2010.

Yes.

Perhaps I could just clarify that what I meant when I was talking about austerity is an approach to fiscal policy. That's the shorthand, isn't it? It's austerity fiscal policy. It's about the pretence of saying that you can cut and therefore try and somehow put money back into the economy. Many academics have shown that that's a fallacy. It doesn't work, it takes services away, it decimates services from the people who most need them. And what it does is transfer money from the poorest to the richest.

Keynesian economics is a two-sided coin, and, when the economy slows down, you increase spending to stimulate demand and the economy. The reverse of that is that, when an economy is growing, you're supposed to reduce the spending so that, when there's a rainy day, you can ramp up again. That's Keynesian economics. And the failure to do that and the failure to have addressed the atrocious economic state inherited in 2010 would have generated bigger imposed cuts, as happened in those other countries that didn't heed that. 

Mike Hedges referred to a policy we abandoned years ago and to the impact of this Labour decision on the wealthy minority but not the vulnerable majority of pensioners. 

Peter Fox said that, when wrong decisions are made, it takes courage to stand up for constituents and challenge these, but none of this courage was shown by any Welsh Labour MPs when they voted on this in the UK Parliament. We now need Welsh Labour MSs to show the courage missing then. And as he said, the decision was a clear political choice.

Heledd Fychan rightly says that our role in the Senedd is to find solutions, and we're talking here about the basics of human life. We need Westminster to not continue with this damaging policy.

James Evans pointed out that we have to support some of the most vulnerable people in our society, and that's what we're talking about, because, for many pensioners, this is a matter of survival, with one in five in Wales already living in poverty, and fuel poverty higher in rural areas. As he said, we cannot stand idly by.

Laura Anne Jones rightly said how disappointing it is to see so many empty Labour benches on this key issue. And as she said, the only black hole we've seen recently is the black hole in Keir Starmer's wardrobe. She pointed out that 1.6 million disabled pensioners would be stripped of their winter fuel payments, and that supporting pensioners is not just an economic responsibility, but also a moral one.

Natasha Asghar said that politics is about choices, and it is, and securing a safe environment for our pensioners should be a priority for everyone. She said, rightly, that this is a nasty policy, and we need dignity and respect shown to our pensioners.

The Cabinet Secretary, Jane Hutt, sadly delivered a politicised point-scoring response, which was frankly heartless. She said that difficult decisions were caused by a £22 billion black hole in the public purse, showing that—dare I say it—this regressive Labour Welsh Government’s only real policy remains to blame everything on others, and particularly the former Conservative Government in the UK. She then sought to divert attention from this uncaring decision by self-praising Welsh Government schemes. Of course we support policies to help people in fuel poverty, but this debate is about a decision that does the opposite. I do, however, thank her very much for agreeing to attend the cross-party group on fuel poverty and energy efficiency, as she's done willingly in the past, and contributed to those meetings, but I will have to point out to her that many of the organisations attending those meetings have expressed deep concerns about the decision, and called for it to be changed.

Earlier this year, Cabinet Secretary, you said you did not believe that the UK benefits system was a compassionate, coherent, person-centred benefit system. A system—dare I say—that did then pay the winter fuel payment to all pensioners who'd reached the state pension age. However, today, she didn't tell us how she would describe the UK benefits system, now she's stated that the Labour UK Government's decision to end the winter fuel payment will risk pushing some pensioners into fuel poverty.

The Labour Prime Minister and Chancellor have justified their decision to scrap winter payments for millions of pensioners on the grounds of a £22 billion black hole left by the Conservatives, so you're clearly doing as you're told and following the Westminster script. However, the UK Treasury has refused to provide key details of this fiscal black hole that Labour claims to have discovered. In reality, when Labour left office in 2010, the UK deficit stood at 10.3 per cent of GDP, but when the Conservatives left office in 2024, this stood at 4.4 per cent of GDP, despite having had to borrow billions to support people and the economy through the pandemic and the global cost-of-living crisis.

Further, a chunk of the claimed black hole is down to political decisions by the UK Labour Government, a point rehearsed by many of my colleagues. Even worse, they now admit that no impact assessment was carried out on a policy that will affect an estimated 500,000 pensioners in Wales alone. No impact assessment: that's not good government under any party.

They're urging pensioners to check if they could be eligible for pension credit to secure the winter fuel payment. They therefore undermine their argument that this is somehow a fiscal decision, with the think tank Policy in Practice stating that if all 880,000 eligible pensioners applied for pension credit, the Treasury could face a bill of £3.8 billion—a point made again by one of my colleagues—and dwarfing the £1.4 billion saving from scrapping non-means-tested winter fuel payments.

Additionally, an estimated 130,000 older people in the UK will miss out because they're just £500 over the income threshold to claim pensions credit, reinforcing the call for action by the Older People's Commissioner for Wales to resolve the issue of the cliff edge, whereby older people who are ineligible for pension credit because of incomes just above the threshold miss out on support entirely. Age UK estimates that 2.5 million pensioners on low incomes, but not low enough to get pension credit, will struggle to pay their bills this winter. Age Cymru have stated that 

'cutting the winter fuel payment this winter, with virtually no notice and no compensatory measures to protect poor and vulnerable pensioners, is the wrong decision.'

The lack of foresight is also highlighted by the Motor Neurone Disease Association, who have said:

'Means-testing the Winter Fuel Payment will take no account of the unavoidable costs of living with a highly disabling condition like MND. People coping with this devastating condition do not deserve to lose the support they rely on this winter.'

That also applies to hundreds of thousands of other people with other serious conditions. As National Energy Action Cymru have stated, the decision to limit the winter fuel payment to pensioners receiving pensions credit has raised wide concerns about the impact on the ability of older people to keep warm and well at home, leaving many pensioners in need without support this winter.

That is what our motion is about today. I therefore urge all Members to send this message, the message articulated by NEA, Age Cymru, Age UK, MND Association and so many others, to the UK Government by supporting our motion today. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Therefore, we will defer voting until voting time at the end of the afternoon.

The next item will be the Plaid Cymru debate on NHS waiting lists. I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to move the motion.

Thank you, Llywydd. It's interesting to note, isn't it, that there are six Members on the Labour benches who have held the health portfolio at some point over the past 25 years, including two former First Ministers and the current First Minister. It's one whirlwind of ministerial change, which includes the brightest, they say, from the Labour Party ranks, and has whirled wildly recently. But although we have seen different faces coming and going over the summer, it's the same old story when it comes to the health service: standards going down, waiting times getting longer, staff being pushed to the extreme, and from the Government, nothing but repeated empty promises. 

For example, the First Minister's predecessor made the following announcement back in April:

'It's clear that the NHS, and reducing waiting times, is a top priority for the people of Wales, and the same is true for us as a Government.'

Similarly, upon taking office over the summer, the current First Minister pledged a refresh in office, with a relentless focus on addressing the backlog, and yet, since February of this year, NHS waiting lists have hit record highs for five consecutive months, which now account for almost 20 per cent of our entire population. A record-breaking Government for all the wrong reasons.

We all understand the scale of the challenges facing our health service: an ageing population, high rates of long-term sickness and the continued fall-out from the pandemic, to name but a few. They have been well rehearsed by several of the health Minister's predecessors, and I'm sure we'll hear more of the same in his response. But the Government would have far more sympathy from the Welsh public if it was not for their stubborn refusal to learn from their mistakes and for missing so many opportunities to show the necessary vision, dynamism and drive to chart a better future for our NHS.

This was on full display last week, as the First Minister asserted that cutting waiting lists could be achieved in lieu of structural reform. It typifies this Government's habit of placing the horse firmly before the cart, of fixating on the outcomes without actually plotting a credible path to get there. By suggesting that health board executives are at fault for high waiting lists, the First Minister has yet again demonstrated this Government's aptitude for apportioning blame to everyone but themselves.

It is for this reason that we have brought this motion before the Senedd today, to urge the new health Minister to finally break the cycle of failure and ducked responsibilities, by revising the Government's strategy for tackling NHS waiting lists, because anything less would represent a continuation of the tired policies and empty platitudes that have led us to this point.

Plaid Cymru is clear about the bold action required to put the NHS back on its feet. So, if this Government is serious about driving lasting improvements in our health system, it needs to listen up to what a refreshed approach truly looks like. It means investing properly in the preventative agenda to keep people out of hospital, rather than stripping away funding from public health programmes to prop up the false economy on which our overburdened front-line services currently teeter. It means working constructively with the royal colleges to tackle deep-rooted issues of staff retention, rather than castigating them as part of the problem, as the previous health Minister did in a recent committee hearing. It means harnessing technological innovations to bring care closer to home, rather than allowing hospital beds to be overloaded by patients who are fit enough to be discharged. It means developing a strategy to fix the foundations of the NHS estate through more ambitious use of the Senedd's borrowing powers, rather than letting our crumbling health infrastructure fall into further disrepair. And it means demanding a fair funding deal for Wales from Westminster, rather than timidly acquiescing to the outdated Barnett formula that falls well short of the needs of our population.

The people of Wales are crying out for this Government to show that it is capable of a change of direction from the current trajectory of chronic decline in our health system. Give them a reason to believe by supporting this motion.

The four amendments to the motion have been selected. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Formally.

I now call on Sam Rowlands to move amendments 2, 3 and 4, tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

Well, diolch yn fawr iawn, acting Presiding Officer. I move the Welsh Conservative amendments in the name of Darren Millar.

It's incredible, isn't it? Wales has a new First Minister and apparently a new Cabinet in place, but we have the same old problems with the NHS waiting lists in Wales. And, of course, this new Cabinet's only been here a matter of weeks, but there's not a great deal of light at the end of the tunnel when we look at waiting lists at the moment. And I think there's a lot to say about Welsh Labour that they reward the person who's given us the longest NHS waiting lists on record by making that person the First Minister of Wales. But it's not just about the First Minister and her role in this place. As Mabon ap Gwynfor pointed out, there is a plethora of health Ministers sat amongst the Labour benches and 25 years of Labour mismanagement have led us to this point that we're at today: consistently missed targets and seemingly zero plan for fixing the state of the health service here in Wales.

We heard some lovely warm words from the First Minister yesterday, and I'm sure they were reassuring to us all in this place, but those are words we've heard repeated time and time again by a bevy of Ministers and Cabinet Secretaries who, seemingly, have only made the situation worse. And what I find saddest of all is that we've kind of got used to this being the way it is; this is just the way it is in Wales, we have long waiting lists and we have a health service that, unfortunately, isn't always there when we need it, and that makes me saddest of all. And that is not acceptable, that is not how the health service has to be or should be here in Wales.

Again, we've heard, as already outlined, a First Minister who seems happy to pass the buck onto NHS managers and chief executives of health boards, and clearly, they have a significant role to play—health boards have a big job to do to work through these waiting lists—but a First Minister and a Government must not abdicate its responsibility, first and foremost, in this place, elected by the people of Wales to see these services delivered well, and currently, they don't seem to be taking that responsibility. I do hope that we hear a different tone from the new Cabinet Secretary and I hope he'll be willing to take on that responsibility for the performance of our health service, rather than passing the blame elsewhere. Because we know that, as always, sadly, it's patients and hardworking staff who are left at the sharp end; they're the ones languishing in pain on waiting lists or working under serious pressure without the full support that they need. As our amendments point out in front of us here today, let’s not forget that the Welsh Government is the only Government in Great Britain to have ever cut the health budget. It’s this Welsh Government that refuses to spend the full 20 per cent Barnett consequential uplift that it has on health.

Talking of British Governments, of course, it seems like we should be in a land of flowing milk and honey with a new British Labour Government at the other end of the M4. This doesn’t seem apparent just yet. But it’s interesting, isn’t it? One of the first things that Keir Starmer instigated when he came in as Prime Minister was a review of the NHS in England, with the recently released Darzi report. Unfortunately, there is no sign of a similar report being instigated here in Wales, and that’s despite every major metric being worse in the Welsh health service than it is in England.

We have heard already about the number of people on a waiting list in Wales—at least one in five people. And we know that over 23,000 people in Wales are waiting on those waiting lists for more than two years. We on these benches would certainly have welcomed Lord Darzi casting an eye over the Welsh NHS and making a judgment on the failures of Labour’s last quarter of a century in charge. I would be interested to understand from the Cabinet Secretary whether this is something that he is seeking, as Sir Keir Starmer has sought for the NHS in England—an independent report by someone like Lord Darzi to outline where those failings have been taking place.

We have only just finished a debate in this place, to compound issues, on the impact of the winter fuel payments being slashed. That is going to provide no help whatsoever to the health of our older people here in Wales, and will certainly compound the issues when it comes to waiting lists. We know that, according to the Department for Work and Pensions, the equality analysis of this policy of slashing this means that 1.6 million disabled people across the UK will lose their payments—71 per cent of those who were entitled to it. That’s going to make a significant impact across the UK, but certainly here in Wales as well.

So, in terms of the motion here today laid by Plaid Cymru—and, of course, we are grateful to them for bringing this debate forward—we are happy to support their motion. But we are also seeking support for our amendments in this place today, so I call on all Members to support our amendments as well. Diolch yn fawr iawn.  

We saw last week—and we’ve heard reference to this already—Lord Darzi publishing his damning report on the health service in England, a report that set out clearly how long years of neglect and ignoring the fundamental problems—and let’s remember that that happened under both parties in Westminster—had led to a service and workforce in England that is on its knees. But what is concerning for us in Wales, of course, is the fact that so many of the key problems that Lord Darzi shed light on, such as clear signs of the failures of Labour and the Conservatives, one after the other, in dealing with the NHS in England, also shine a very bright light on the situation in our own health service too.

Yes, Keir Starmer is right to say that the situation in England is disastrous—11 per cent, more than 10 per cent, of the population of England on waiting lists. But in Wales, of course, the figure is 20 per cent. In England, there are major challenges in terms of cancer treatment, with 34 per cent failing to receive treatment within 62 days. But here, the figure is 43 per cent who don’t get that treatment in the same timescale. So, the health service in England is far from being a model of what we should be emulating here in Wales. There have been great problems in the service over the border, and that is as a result of underinvestment over a number of years. But there is a major difference in the attitude of Keir Starmer and Eluned Morgan. We haven’t heard from the new health Minister in Wales, but there is a major difference between what we hear in Keir Starmer’s words and those expressed by Eluned Morgan.

Keir Starmer, through commissioning this work and in responding in the way that he has to the work of Lord Darzi, is trying to put a focus on what can be done in the ensuing period to resolve some of the problems in England. Of course, there is a political motive in blaming previous Governments for those failings; one would be very naive not to recognise that. But I also hope that there is a sincere effort to try and get to the heart of these issues now. But whilst Keir Starmer can blame his Conservative predecessors, the truth of the matter is that Eluned Morgan can't blame anyone other than her predecessors and herself, as health Ministers in Wales. And if the truth is too difficult to stomach after 25 years in power, it does raise serious questions about the desire of this Government to improve the situation for patients. 

Members will remember that Plaid Cymru had called on the Welsh Government to call a health crisis here in Wales, and that was for a very good reason: in order to raise the level of gravity. And that was echoed by staff within the health service, and certainly by patients, but, again, there was no willingness from the Government at that point to recognise the gravity of the situation. If it's not an emergency, then how can the situation be described? And how can Labour describe a situation in England as a crisis when the situation in Wales in so many ways is so much worse? Ministers surely must see that change is necessary. In the heat of the electoral campaign, we had that incredible sight of the then health Minister—the now First Minister—holding a placard calling for the modernisation of our health service, and Labour Members here praising Keir Starmer's plans to transform the health service in England, whilst simultaneously insisting that everything is fine here in Wales, but that someone will actually carry out a miracle of modernisation—someone other than the Minister herself, apparently.

I'm going to close with a statistic that will be sobering for us all. Do you know how many people were waiting over a year for their first appointment in 2012? Three hundred and sixteen. The corresponding figure for Wales now is 74,000. Behind each of those statistics, there is an individual in pain, or someone who's concerned about the state of his or her health, or is concerned about the health of loved ones, or who sees their health deteriorating further whilst they wait. There is a real duty on Government for everyone waiting longer than the target times, and a responsibility on the new health Minister, quite simply, to work differently to his predecessors.

I'd like to welcome the new health Secretary to his post; I'm sure he'll do a great job. This is difficult work. I'm glad that we are having this debate. But the idea that we can simply get away with saying, 'Bold action is required', without saying what that bold action is, is really not advancing human knowledge. Of course, I completely agree with you, we need to have much more effort on the preventative agenda, but that's not going to resolve the current situation. That is a very long burn. That is going to be seen in a healthier nation in 10, 15, 20 years. And, obviously, it is a major challenge to try and ensure that there is more money going into the preventative agenda, but that has to then come from the secondary sector, which is what this motion is about. So, I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here. 

I think, Sam Rowlands, you are being unfair to Eluned Morgan. You are not giving her her due for the heavy lifting that she has done on this issue, whilst she was health Minister—turning up on unannounced visits in the emergency departments, turning up in the dedicated surgical units supposed to be doing the elective work on a production-line basis. And that is why, in the Labour motion, it acknowledges that the waiting lists have gone down by two thirds. That's very significant. But, obviously, that is no consolation to the individual who's waiting in discomfort for a bed to have an operation.

Thank you, Jenny, for taking the intervention. I mentioned the First Minister in my contribution because, under her watch, we had the highest ever level of people on waiting lists in Wales. That, for me, is not success. If you define that as a success, we have very different measures of success.

Nobody’s saying we have arrived, but what we're saying is we have made progress.

This is a really, really difficult issue, for several reasons. As is demonstrated in Saving Lives in Cardiff, you cannot be admitted to hospital for an operation unless there is a bed for you to recuperate in. That simply wouldn't be ethical. And the Darzi report highlights that 13 per cent of people in English hospitals are there long after their secondary care has been completed, and the need for them to move back into the community. There's absolutely no reason to doubt that there isn't a similar figure happening in Welsh hospitals. I happen to know that there are several hundred people in the Heath hospital in Cardiff who don't medically need to be there, but it is extremely difficult to move them on, for ethical reasons. That's in a health board that has the lowest ambulance waiting times because of its whole-system approach to bed management. They are freeing up space on the wards in the hospital as soon as possible so that another patient can be admitted, either from the emergency department or from the waiting list.

The reason this is so difficult is because we don't have the community health and social care services that we need, and that is the challenge that we absolutely have to crack. But it is not something that we're going to be able to do easily. I recently had a meeting with the the person in charge of the community nursing service—something that I'm absolutely passionate about—that I visited in Cwm Taf just before the lockdown. I've seen just how amazing it is and how efficient it is, using the latest technology to allocate people according to the needs of the individual. But we have hugely expanded the number of community nursing teams, hugely—particularly in North Wales, you'll be interested to know—but it is not nearly enough, and we still have lots and lots of people who don't need to be in hospital, some of whom are admitted because the services don't exist in the community to prevent them having to come into hospital. This is something I am personally dealing with at the moment, and I can tell you just how complicated it is.

One of the reasons it's so complicated, and one that's going to be really difficult to resolve, is you have the health service, who are focusing on getting people out of hospital as soon as they no longer need to be there, and you have the local authority, who is having to assess every single individual case to work out whether they really need to be paying for the social care that that individual may need. This is really complicated stuff, because most of the people who are stuck in hospital are over 80, and even in a young population like Cardiff I can recall the previous chief executive saying the average age of people in hospital is 85. And that's in Cardiff; it would be more than that in other parts of Wales. So that is the dilemma we face. How we're going to do that without the extra money to double-run services, setting up new ones and having to maintain the existing ones, is really, really complicated, and anybody who thinks this is just easy and it's just a failure of will is for the birds.

I’d like to speak specifically to the part of our motion that regrets the decision made by the Labour UK Government to continue to apply austerity policies, and the impact that this has on our national health service. Austerity is damaging to people’s health and poverty makes people ill. Read any number of studies on the long-term impact of the previous Conservative Government’s austerity policies and you're bound to come to the same conclusion. Austerity measures are directly responsible for exacerbating health inequalities that cost the NHS in Wales £322 million every year, and most damaging of all, for causing 190,000 additional deaths between 2010 and 2019.

One might expect that the priority of any party that is interested in rebuilding the foundations of our stricken health service, that believes in social justice, that takes pride in its socialist beliefs as the party of Aneurin Bevan, would be to ensure that this disastrous dogma is immediately consigned to the dustbin of history. But what we had all feared throughout the general election campaign has now come to pass, because it appears that Keir Starmer’s party is as enamoured of austerity policies as their Conservative predecessors. After all, one of their first actions on gaining power was to reconfirm their commitment to the two-child benefit cap and the cap on benefits, the main cause of high levels of child poverty in Wales, according to the former First Minister, Mark Drakeford, and harshly reprimanding those few voices brave enough to stand up against this betrayal of some of the most vulnerable in our society. 

Even George Osborne, the architect of austerity, hadn’t taken the winter fuel payment away from pensioners, and they're expected to live on almost half the level of the minimum income. It's a measure that will, as correctly assessed by the Cabinet Secretary for social justice, drive even more pensioners in Wales deeper into fuel poverty and, of course, will intensify the pressure on our health and care service. The fact that this decision was made without an impact assessment underlines that it's clear that austerity, far from being driven by an unwilling pragmatism, is the guiding principle of Keir Starmer’s agenda in Government. It's a political choice; this was true in Cameron, Clegg and Osborne’s day, and it's true now. 

Given Keir Starmer's continued refusal to scrap the outdated Barnett formula and replace it with a funding arrangement that truly reflects the needs of our population—and the First Minister's refusal to speak up for the people of Wales when the Labour Prime Minister makes decisions that harm our citizens; she told us very clearly yesterday that wasn't her job, although Barnett reform commands cross-party support across this Senedd—it’s clear that Labour's choice in Westminster to pursue austerity will have dire implications for Wales and our ability to properly fund and fix our NHS.

Even if the meagre consequentials that will derive from Labour’s plans for the ring-fenced NHS services are passed on in full by the Welsh Government, they'll still be insufficient to meet the £1.5 billion of additional spending required from 2024-25 to 2027-28 to simply meet current demand. So, I'd like to hear from the Cabinet Secretary what he plans to do about that. Meanwhile, non-ring-fenced areas of the Welsh budget, which include social care, vital to getting waiting lists down, as you rightly pointed out, Jenny, are now facing a real-terms reduction of £683 million over the next five years. The First Minister shows no appetite to challenge her Labour counterpart in Westminster on austerity measures, which worsen health inequalities, which literally kill—no inclination to insulate Wales from the worst excesses of Westminster—we are tired of this—or to push, for example, for social care reform, which would result in crucial funding to do the same in Wales. Indeed, the much vaunted special relationship of two Labour Governments on both sides of the M4 simply seems to mean an entrenchment of the failing status quo for Wales of underinvestment in our vital health and social care services and an entrenchment of the health inequalities and ill health caused by austerity measures, which however Labour want to spin it, duck it or deny it, is a political choice.

As we've heard very eloquently already from a number of speakers, all parts of Wales are suffering as a result of this Government's persistent inability to reduce waiting lists, which have now reached unsustainable levels. But unfortunately, it's our children and young people who are losing out and suffering the most. The latest statistics paint a very sorry picture in this respect. At present, there are 8,241 young people under the age of 18 who have been on a waiting list for over a year, and a further 1,278 who have been on a waiting list for over two years. The situation is particularly severe in Betsi Cadwaladr, where 62 per cent of people under the age of 18 are having to wait longer than two years. Sixty-two per cent—it's shameful.

A recent survey by the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health has corroborated the detrimental implications of these delays on this particular age group. The majority of paediatricians in Wales reported seeing children negatively impacted by longer waiting times for treatment, and that they felt frustrated that they don't have the appropriate level of capacity to meet demand. For far too many of our young people, what should be the happiest and healthiest period of their lives is being blighted by the debilitating uncertainty of prolonged waits for treatment.

And mental health, of course, is a particular area of concern. There can be no doubt that there are low levels of public confidence in our mental health services, and this is entirely unsurprising when we consider the extent to which young people are being let down in this area. And as we all know, young people experienced the largest average deterioration in their mental well-being as a result of the COVID pandemic, and yet waiting times for local primary mental health support services are disproportionately longer for Welsh children as compared to adults. Also, only 57 per cent of Welsh children and young people are able to start therapeutic interventions within 28 days following an assessment. Furthermore, the recent perinatal mental health project in Wales has found that 61 per cent of health professionals had not received any training on infant mental health. Consider that fact.

I'm sure that you will agree that ensuring effective and timely provision of healthcare early in life is instrumental to the preventative agenda. And truth be told, the future sustainability of the health service as a whole is entirely dependent on this agenda as we look to the future.

The unacceptably long waiting lists that we see for young people and children therefore demonstrate to us how unstable the foundations of this Government’s approach to early intervention are, and why a revision of this strategy for tackling waiting lists is so urgently needed, and it should be a matter of priority to safeguard the prospects of our future generations.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, Jeremy Miles.

Thank you, acting Dirprwy Lywydd. I welcome the opportunity to reply to this debate in the name of Plaid Cymru on one of the most important issues for us and for the public, namely cutting waiting times. I look forward, after a week in post, to work with the health service to ensure that it continues to provide excellent and timely care for the people of Wales.

There are more staff than ever working in our health service. They are working hard every day, changing lives and saving lives, and that is done very often in very difficult circumstances. They are the beating heart of the health service. I was pleased to see the First Minister last week announcing a pay settlement that is above inflation for all 'Agenda for Change' staff, and for doctors and dentists. It shows how much we trust and appreciate the service of the staff and the value we place on those staff.

The majority of people seen by the health service will receive good-quality care in a timely manner. For the majority, that means primary care from their GP, a nurse, a pharmacist, physiotherapist, a dentist, or even an optician, perhaps. Some will need further treatment in hospital. At the moment, the average waiting time is 22 weeks for planned treatment. Unfortunately, many people wait longer than this, mainly as a result of the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic. So soon after a decade of austerity, it's cast a long shadow over our health service.

Although services have been restored, to a great extent, to pre-pandemic levels, we still have lengthy waiting times and an increasing waiting list, which reflects the general health of our population. Our work to reduce waiting times is having an impact. Long waits of over two years have reduced by 67 per cent since the high point in March 2022, and long waits for diagnostic tests have reduced by almost a third. Now, around 3 per cent of people on waiting lists are waiting longer than two years, compared with almost 10 per cent in March 2022, over two years ago. This has happened in difficult circumstances. New referrals for treatment have increased significantly. We are in the most difficult financial situation since the beginning of devolution, and we still see waves of COVID infection, and delayed transfers of care are at a very high level. These are very difficult circumstances for any health service, but the truth of the matter is that we must go further and more swiftly.

Over the summer, as part of the First Minister's listening exercise, the public told us clearly how much they value the NHS, but they were clear they wanted to see waiting times come down. We heard first-hand from them about a friend, about a family member, or about their own experience of waiting for a bed in a hospital, about having an operation cancelled at short notice, about trying to live a normal life while in pain. These stories are difficult to hear because this is not the level of care that we want from our NHS.

Our planned care recovery plan has driven the reduction in waiting lists to date. We've provided almost £900 million extra for the NHS this year and last. Some of this is being used to increase capacity, to reduce the backlog. But my view is that, whilst short-term measures are essential, they will not be enough on their own. In parallel, we need to change the way we deliver services to ensure we have a sustainable health service for the future. We will support the NHS to adapt to the pressures it faces. That means digital transformation, it means looking at the way out-patient departments work, it means continuing our programme of reforms to move care out of hospitals and into local communities, closer to people's homes.

While services have, as I said, returned to their pre-pandemic operating level, there is still too much variation across Wales in terms of productivity and performance. As part of our work to reduce waiting times, we are targeting that variation specifically, whether that's in theatre productivity, day-case activity, or procedure times, so that we can increase activity levels to those recommended by the royal colleges, which Members have referred to today. In May the national planned care programme set out objectives to improve productivity and efficiency, using best practice, technology and a move towards longer working days. This recognised that many of our pathways are overcomplicated, they are difficult for people to understand, and can result in multiple appointments in different hospitals. So, pathways will be streamlined to remove unnecessary steps and, wherever possible, the NHS will introduce a one-stop approach to reduce the number of appointments needed.

Tomorrow we will publish a new waiting times bulletin that provides data about how individual health boards are performing in a format that is accessible. It will help us identify good performance and where health boards need to do more to learn from those that are making the best progress. But we also need to maintain our focus on prevention, a principle that we've already heard referred to in the Darzi report, which has featured in this debate, in order to improve the underlying health of our country. The UK Government's ban on paid-for junk food advertising online and before the watershed is an important step in the work to tackle the obesity epidemic, and I look forward to the introduction of a strengthened UK tobacco and vapes Bill that will support our ambitions of a nicotine-and-smoke-free Wales.

More than 6,000 procedures were cancelled at the last minute last year, many because of ill health. Empowering and supporting people to make meaningful changes to their lifestyle, such as giving up smoking, losing weight and taking gentle exercise means they're often fitter and better prepared for the planned treatment and more likely to recover faster.

Llywydd, this is my first week in my new job as health Secretary, and cutting waiting times is at the top of my to-do list. This morning I met with NHS chairs. I attended a ministerial cancer summit, experiencing the commitment of our clinical teams to improving cancer outcomes specifically. They were both an opportunity for me to set out our priorities as a Government, to ensure faster access to care and treatment. I want to build upon the good work that is already under way. I will highlight good practice, but be clear in my expectation that all parts of the system must learn from those parts making the best progress. And I will work with my colleagues across the Government and across the NHS to achieve that.

I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to reply to the debate.

Well, thank you very much, Llywydd dros dro, and thank you to everyone who has responded in this debate. I want to begin my closing comments by welcoming the new Cabinet Secretary for health to his post, and wishing him the very best. I'm looking forward to working with him in that role. But I'm afraid to say that the response we've received today wasn't a shock but it was also disappointing, because we haven't seen any kind of vision being set out.

If I refer to some of the comments that the Cabinet Secretary made before I continue, you started your contribution by saying that one of the good things that the NHS does is providing timely care, but that's the exact point: it isn't providing timely care to hundreds of thousands—over 0.5 million—of people in Wales who are on waiting lists for months and years. That's the exact point that we're making in the motion in front of us. You also spoke about the important steps that have been taken over the summer, namely that there has been a decision made on a pay award for workers in the health sector. But, of course, that has been entirely dependent on Westminster. Now, if you agreed with this motion, with Plaid Cymru, and were to demand a change to the funding system in Wales, and a change to Barnett, then you wouldn't have had to wait until the summer for this pay award. You would have been able to do it much sooner. But, for some reason, you wait for Westminster to take action.

You mentioned that Wales has been suffering under the long shadow of austerity over the past few years, and that's entirely correct. Fourteen years of austerity have had a detrimental impact on our ability to provide quality health services in Wales. But, unfortunately, your Government in London, under Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves, are continuing with that austerity policy, and Sioned made it clear, so that everyone understands, it is clear to everyone, that austerity policies that have been implemented, and will continue under the Labour Government, will be harmful to the health of people and will make those waiting lists longer. And once again, you mentioned the difficult financial situation that Wales finds itself in, but once again you're refusing to stand up to your masters in London and demand a fair settlement for Wales.

And finally, you mentioned at the end the importance of the preventive element, and we all, of course, agree that that is what the priority should be, but it's this Government, your Government, that has cut preventive programmes within the health service and local government, which leads to this crisis. So, you can't have it both ways. Of course, it's no surprise to hear what the Cabinet Secretary has said, trying to paint a picture that our waiting lists are being cut in some elements, and trying to paint some picture that all is rosy. That's what we get from this Government, time and time again. Rather than taking responsibility, this Government points the finger towards everyone else and blames other people. We've heard the First Minister blaming managers in the health service, we've heard Ministers in this Government blaming the people of Wales, blaming the people of Wales for having the wrong diet, blaming the people of Wales for being obese, for not looking after themselves, blaming the people of Wales for attending A&E for different reasons, rather than taking responsibility for your own failings.

I'm not sure, from hearing the Cabinet Secretary or the previous Cabinet Secretaries, whether you understand truly the impact of these waiting lists. If I give you one example—a neighbour of mine who is a constituent—he was a patient waiting for a knee replacement. He was on the waiting list for two years. Because of that, he was putting weight on. He couldn't walk, he was putting weight on, he became obese, which meant that he had to go and see his doctor more often. Because he couldn't walk, because he was becoming obese, his mental health was impacted detrimentally, too, which meant that he had to again go into the health service. One patient having to turn to the health service several times because you had failed to ensure that he received timely treatment. 

You said in your contribution, Cabinet Secretary, that—I quote—

'we need to change the way we deliver services'.

Yes, you're doing that. The result for that patient, my neighbour, was that he had to go privately to access a service for a knee replacement. And that's the legacy of 25 years of Labour Government, that we're seeing privatisation in our health service—a two-tier health service; one for those people who can afford it and another tier for those people who can't. That's the Labour record in Wales. That's why we need to tackle these waiting lists. We need to see a programme being set out by you, a clear programme that does demonstrate the steps in terms of how you will tackle these waiting lists. That's why we've put forward this motion, and I hope and we ask everyone to support it. Thank you very much. 

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore defer voting. 

Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will move immediately to voting time. The first vote is on item 7, the Welsh Conservatives debate on the winter fuel payment. [Interruption.]

Yes, I think I'm having—. Lesley Griffiths wants to intervene.

Yes. I'm having difficulty registering to vote. I'm still trying.

Okay. I'll pause a few seconds. 

It's fine. I've done it now. Thank you. 

Yes. [Interruption.] Prif Weinidog. I think we're all a bit rusty after a few weeks away.

Can I just check that everybody other than one person is now ready to vote? 

Okay. We will move to the vote, and I will call for an oral vote if problems persist for Jenny Rathbone. We will now vote on the motion under item 7. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 23, no abstentions, 24 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed. 

We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, 23 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed. 

A vote on amendment 2 next, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour nine, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is not agreed.

We'll now vote on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, 23 against. And therefore the motion as amended is agreed.

The next vote will be on item 8, the Plaid Cymru debate on NHS waiting lists. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 23, no abstentions, 24 against. Therefore, the motion without amendment is not agreed.

The next vote is on amendment 1. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. Amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, 23 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed. And amendments 2 and 3 are deselected.

I call now for a vote on amendment 4, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 32 against. Therefore, amendment 4 is not agreed.

The final vote is on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, 23 against. The motion as amended is agreed.

That concludes voting for this afternoon, and we will shortly move to the short debate. If those leaving the Chamber could do so quietly.

I will invite Heledd Fychan to speak to the topic she's chosen. Heledd Fychan.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I'd like to start by saying that I'll give a minute of my time to Peredur Owen Griffiths, Tom Giffard and Sioned Williams, and thank you for being willing to contribute. I will express my concern that we don't have the Cabinet Secretary for the Welsh language nor the Minister with responsibility for culture present for this debate, but I hope that they will be listening back to it, because these are points that I hope that the Government will listen to.

So, the title of this short debate is 'The 2024 Eisteddfod Genedlaethol in Rhondda Cynon Taf: Securing a Legacy for the Welsh Language in the Valleys'. And there is a question to begin with: 'The best Eisteddfod ever?' That was the question posed by Tudur Owen, that was the question on the front page of Golwg, and that was the question on the lips of many of those who attended the National Eisteddfod in Pontypridd in Rhondda Cynon Taf last month. Perhaps you will have noticed how little complaint there was, and how few negative headlines there were. That says it all in terms of how successful it was. And without a doubt, as someone who attends the Eisteddfod every year and as someone who now lives in Pontypridd, and attended this year's Eisteddfod everyday in all weathers, it was a hugely successful Eisteddfod. The town of Pontypridd and Ynysangharad park were a hive of activity, with a warm welcome for the thousands who came to support, and the purpose of my short debate today is to reflect on and celebrate their success, as well as consider how we as a Senedd can support the legacy in terms of the Welsh language in the Valleys, and, more widely, support the role of the National Eisteddfod and Urdd Eisteddfod more widely as part of the target of achieving a million Welsh speakers by 2050 and also increase use of the language.  

First of all, I’d like to thank everyone responsible for the event’s success: the Eisteddfod staff, staff and officials at Rhondda Cynon Taf council, the local working group under the leadership of the legendary Helen Prosser, the army of volunteers who raised funds and prepared the site, not to mention all of the other vital tasks to put on a successful Eisteddfod—also, of course, the many instructors, competitors, stallholders and everyone who attended, as well as the businesses in the area, which worked so hard to ensure a warm welcome to everyone. Everyone played their part effectively.

And no-one should underestimate the scale of the task. After all, the National Eisteddfod hadn’t been held in the Rhondda Cynon Taf area since 1956, and it was last held in the Pontypridd area in 1893. This meant that the majority of people in the area had never experienced an eisteddfod other than a school eisteddfod, and they had no idea what to expect. Therefore, naturally, although there was excitement amongst many, there was also nervousness among some, and, to be entirely honest, some negativity too, with a number of local people concerned at seeing their local park closing for a period during the summer holiday. They were also worried about traffic and, more than anything, they had the opinion that the Eisteddfod wasn’t relevant to them as they didn't speak Welsh.

More than once in the months leading up to the Eisteddfod, I was tempted to put some Facebook groups on mute because of this. One can only do so much to reason with some of the most prominent voices on such platforms that enjoy stirring the pot. But I’m glad that I refrained, because it was wonderful to see, as the Eisteddfod approached, the tide starting to turn, as people saw the park being transformed into an Eisteddfod maes and as more details about the Eisteddfod were shared. And you should have seen the comments during the Eisteddfod itself, and afterwards, on these very same websites, with some of the greatest sceptics amongst those praising the event to the skies, and even expressing hopes that the Eisteddfod would return to the area very soon. Indeed, after all of the concerns about traffic, the truth is that the messaging on using public transport, together with the effective provision of trains and shuttle buses, worked wonderfully well, and traffic flow was actually better than during an usual week. 'Bring back the Eisteddfod' was the plea amongst many as traffic returned the following week. 

And, to be fair, it wasn’t just those who were unfamiliar with the Eisteddfod who were concerned. I don’t know how many regular attendees told me of their concerns as to whether the Eisteddfod would fit in Ynysangharad park. Indeed, I was one of them. And I’m very pleased to state that our concerns were baseless, with many amazed to see how much space there was and how well the Eisteddfod filled Ynysangharad park. It also worked well that some of the park’s resources were incorporated into the Eisteddfod, such as the lido, the play area and the Calon Taf centre. Has any other Eisteddfod ever had a real swimming pool there—I'm not talking about large puddles or mud baths—as part of the provision? Of course, there were challenges: Maes B and the caravan park weren’t located in the park itself, but the solutions put in place worked, and all praise to the organisers that this was the case

With the majority of previous years’ Eisteddfods held on sites on the outskirts of towns or far from everywhere, this year’s Eisteddfod felt different, with the town of Pontypridd part of the maes. Using the library as a welcome centre, and using the Muni and YMa, worked excellently, and we must also praise the efforts of the business improvement district in Pontypridd, led by James Payne, for promoting the town’s businesses, as well as the efforts of those businesses themselves. It was great to see venues such as Zucco’s, Café Royale, Cortile Coffee, Janet's and Prince's packed with people—so much so that some of them ran out of food during the week and they had to close their doors—and the town’s pubs and bars. I saw some Ministers in Clwb y Bont during the week, and youll be aware that Clwb y Bont has faced a host of challenges over the past few years following the devastating floods of 2020 and then the COVID pandemic. But, as demonstrated by the thousands who came to support it during the Eisteddfod, Clwb is yma o hyd—still here.

Following the Eisteddfod, the council confirmed how many people had visited Pontypridd town centre during the eight days of the Eisteddfod. The total number of visitors recorded in the town was 186,012, which represents a huge increase of 119,747 compared to the previous week, and an increase of 115,554 as compared to the same week last year. And the busiest day was Friday 9 August, with 39,155 people visiting the town. So, these are figures that demonstrate that people came to Pontypridd in their droves.

And what has been wonderful for me since the Eisteddfod is that a number of those who attended have returned to Pontypridd after the event, as if they had discovered or rediscovered the cultural wealth available there, as well as all of the restaurants, shops and the market. That is the legacy for local businesses. I hope, therefore, that more towns across Wales, as well as the Eisteddfod, will see that that other models can succeed, and that the Pontypridd Eisteddfod will be a possible model for the future. 

Perhaps some Members will remember that I called for free entry to the Eisteddfod in Pontypridd. Although that call was not successful, I was pleased that the Government funded free tickets for thousands of local families, which included travel costs and a contribution towards food costs, and it was wonderful to see so many taking up that offer. This is something that has happened in a number of National Eisteddfods and Urdd Eisteddfods by now, and I’d like to see a commitment by this Government to continue to fund this provision. Why? Well, because, from what I have seen, it is a policy that works, if we want to ensure that people who have never been to an Eisteddfod attend when the Eisteddfod comes to their area so that they have an opportunity to experience the wealth of provision.

In contrast with other free or discounted ticket schemes, some of those who received such a ticket this year could have afforded to buy a ticket. There was an opportunity for anyone with a child at a school in Rhondda Cynon Taf to access tickets. Very sensibly, the majority of those tickets were allocated for the first weekend, which meant that many people then returned and bought their own tickets a number of times during the week. Some of them were parents who had themselves attended Welsh-medium schools but perhaps hadn’t used the language since then, and many were also new Welsh speakers or had no Welsh at all. And what impressed them was the welcome, whether they spoke the language or not. I was delighted to see my son’s friends, at 11 years of age, desperate to go to the maes every day and delighting in the chance to wander around. They're already looking forward, although they are 11 years of age, to going to Maes B in a few years' time. So, I think that's been a success too. 

But we also have to mention what such a legacy means and the Senedd's role in this regard. We must ensure that, when the Eisteddfod goes to a particular area, there are then opportunities for people to learn Welsh, to use their Welsh or to access Welsh language education. So, the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill will be significant, because there have been decisions made that have been damaging to the Welsh language by Rhondda Cynon Taff council in recent years: decreasing the number of Welsh-medium schools in the Pontypridd area from two and a half to two, with the closure of Ysgol Pont Sion Norton and the rejection of parents’ calls to make a new school in the Glyncoch area a Welsh-medium school, which means that children in the Ynysybwl and Glyncoch areas will have to travel past a number of English-medium schools to access Welsh-medium education. This isn’t a viable or genuine option for parents who don’t have a car, which means that some parents have already taken the decision to move their children from Welsh-medium education to English provision because of the distance that they would have to travel to get to a Welsh-medium school.

Secondly, we must look once again at how the mentrau iaith are funded and ensure that they have the resources to continue with the important work that they do in areas across Wales in terms of promoting the language and creating opportunities to use it. They work wonders in supporting the Welsh in education strategic plans across Wales, but their role is wider than that, and it is often difficult for them to retain and recruit staff because the wages that they are able to offer are low, while costs have simultaneously increased. And this is something that we, as a Senedd, can look at as part of expenditure on supporting the 2050 targets. 

Thirdly, I think that we, as a Senedd, have to look at the role played by the Eisteddfod Genedlaethol and Urdd Eisteddfod in terms of supporting 'Cymraeg 2050', and ensure what we collaborate more closely with both bodies and recognise the contribution that their work makes in terms of the Welsh language’s future. And not just that; we must also recognise the economic value of both organisations, as well as their role in promoting Wales on the international stage. And this, therefore, should influence the level of investment they receive from the Government.

To conclude, therefore, my hope is that today’s short debate, and the Eisteddfod itself, provides an opportunity to spark a wider discussion on the potential of our touring eisteddfods in ensuring the survival of the Welsh language as a living language, beyond the classroom or workplace, and also to spark a debate on what we, as a Senedd, can do to support this work. I look forward to hearing Members’ views, as well as those of the Cabinet Secretary.

Thank you very much, Heledd, for this debate. It’s extremely important that we do consider the legacy of the Eisteddfod, and I want to just talk a little about the cultural legacy, and particularly the choral legacy, because I am a member of a choir. I’ve probably bored people by going on about that, but I do enjoy my activities with the choir, and it is one of the things that gives me pause during the week, so it can help with mental health and all sort of other things that stem from being involved in singing and singing alongside others.

During the week, of course, there were dozens of choirs that competed. It was fantastic in terms of the Eisteddfod's choral activity. One of the most wonderful competitions in this Eisteddfod was the competition for choirs that had never competed before. There were 13 or 14 choirs involved in that competition. It was fantastic.

Choral singing, of course, does give people so much pleasure, but it’s also of assistance with mental health and it brings communities together. I do think it’s fair to say 'thank you very much' to the Eisteddfod for creating that choral legacy. Thank you to all the conductors, the singers and the accompanists for coming together and preparing thoroughly for the Eisteddfod.

The challenge for the Minister, really, today is how the Government is going to support grass-roots culture, particularly after what we heard in today’s debates about losing facilities such as the Blackwood Miners’ Institute and the other things that are happening on the ground. So, the challenge for the Minister and for the Cabinet is how they can support our grass-roots culture, particularly our choirs. Diolch.

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and thank you also to Heledd Fychan for bringing forward this debate at the Senedd. It’s a very timely debate, I think, not just because of the fact that we’ve had a very successful Eisteddfod in Rhondda Cynon Taf over the summer, but we saw major events throughout the summer. I watched the Olympics and the Paralympics, and that made me think that when a city or a town or a nation wants to host the Paralympics or Olympics in their country, they always talk about the legacy: what will the legacy of the Olympics be? I think that we can do the same about the Eisteddfod. Of course, the scale is different, but the point is the same.

If we’re going to hit those targets of 'Cymraeg 2050', the way that we’re going to do that is not just in Carmarthenshire or in Ynys Môn, but in places such as Rhondda Cynon Taf and Bridgend and Swansea, and so on. So, it’s important, every time the Eisteddfod goes to those places where people don’t perhaps usually speak Welsh, that we ask ourselves what the impact of this Eisteddfod will be, not just during the week that the Eisteddfod is held, but the impact that the Eisteddfod is going to have in the long term, after the event leaves town and for the years to come. It's about the impact on the Welsh language, the people who attend the Eisteddfod and the community itself. That's something that I hope the Minister will mention in response. Diolch.

Thank you, Heledd. It was a week to remember. I’m certainly of the view that that was the best Eisteddfod that there’s ever been, apart from a few others, such as the one held in Neath, perhaps. But what’s wonderful is that I do think it proved just how beneficial and how important, particularly in terms of the Welsh language, the travelling model is. We know that the National Eisteddfod and the Urdd Eisteddfod have recently had to consider whether they can continue to travel around the country because of costs, because they perhaps don’t receive sufficient funding to provide the necessary infrastructure to travel around the country. I think it’s crucially important. In Neath Port Talbot, we’re looking forward, of course, to welcoming the Urdd Eisteddfod next year—the steel and sea Eisteddfod, which will be held in Margam park. There’ll be a wonderful programme of community events, as I remember you mentioning, bringing people together to raise funds. But I must also praise the Urdd. They have now advertised for two posts—officials who will reach out beyond the Welsh-medium schools that might be, and, of course the Welsh-speaking communities that would be familiar with the Eisteddfod, to work intensively with second language and English-medium schools in order to draw them in too. So, I think it is important, yes, to ensure that feeling of belonging—that the Welsh language belongs to everyone—but that everyone understands that the language is something beyond the classroom, something to be enjoyed, and also that it opens all kinds of doors to opportunities. So, yes, it's important to continue with that travelling model.

The Cabinet Secretary now to contribute to the debate. The Trefnydd, Jane Hutt.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. May I thank the Member, Heledd Fychan, for introducing this short debate in the Senedd today? It's an opportunity to discuss and put a focus on the legacy of the National Eisteddfod in Rhondda Cynon Taf, which was held in Pontypridd this year, and its long-term impact on the Welsh language. But it's also an opportunity for me to formally thank, on the record, everyone who was involved in organising the festival. I'd like to thank the Eisteddfod staff, the leader of RCT council, Andrew Morgan, the hundreds of volunteers, the executive committee, Transport for Wales, the menter iaith and all the local partners for an excellent Eisteddfod this year. This is the result of years of collaboration, and I am very grateful to them all.

As we look back on this year's Eisteddfod, I think it's important that we also look forward, as you have done in your contributions. And I think, Heledd, you've made these points very clearly, and Sioned and others. We must do this looking forward, to make sure we use every opportunity possible to ensure that the Eisteddfod stamp is on Rhondda Cynon Taf for years to come. But also that the enthusiasm that was evident during the Eisteddfod week helps us to give the Welsh language a renewed energy in the area. 

Welsh Government and Eisteddfod officials had been discussing the legacy of the 2024 Eisteddfod months before the Eisteddfod arrived at Parc Ynysangharad, and it was good to hear from the Eisteddfod last week that work in the area was continuing. The executive committee is now focusing on how to maximise on the goodwill shown towards the Welsh language. And before I respond to all the Member's points about the legacy and the Welsh language, I want to share with you a few additional highlights about the Rhondda Cynon Taf Eisteddfod, because this year's Eisteddfod offered an opportunity to show Pontypridd and the Valleys at their best, and what is possible by working together. The people of Ponty and the whole county have made Wales proud. Raising the energy and spirits of our towns can be a challenge since the pandemic, but Pontypridd's welcome was warm and enthusiastic, from the stall holders at the market, to staff at Clwb y Bont and the local bus drivers. Can I say that I absolutely enjoyed this Eisteddfod? And as I got on the train and stepped off at the station and walked across the bridge, there was a protest going on, which was great, in the town centre—it was all part of the hwyl and the business of the Eisteddfod. 

The 2024 Eisteddfod broke several records: the greenest Eisteddfod ever, with over 100,000 train journeys taking place, with Transport for Wales's, as has been acknowledged, faultless service to thank for this; the largest number of tickets sold since pre COVID; the highest number of volunteers registered; and also the highest number of members in the Eisteddfod choir. Da iawn, Peredur. And I hope Rhondda Cynon Taf all realise what they've managed to do, because hosting the Eisteddfod in Rhondda Cynon Taf has given confidence to Rhondda Cynon Taf to embrace Wales's culture and language.

The Eisteddfod delivered an unforgettable cultural experience for thousands of people in the county, with the Welsh language at the heart of it. And through Welsh Government funding, almost 15,000 people received free tickets and food vouchers to attend. I think the inclusivity of that was something quite remarkable, and I felt it and experienced it with the people all around us when we were there. Fifteen thousand people, many of whom now have experienced, and will experience, Welsh as a living, dynamic, fun language for the first time. It’s very difficult to know the long-term difference that this positive experience will have on local people, but I'm almost certain that more and more people will want to be involved in Welsh activities in the county in the future, and that also makes a difference as we think about Welsh language education in the area. I hope more families will consider sending their children to Welsh-medium schools, building on the county's progress already, because they've seen Welsh as a contemporary and living language. I know that officials are currently looking at the second-year annual reports of the Welsh in education strategic plans, and the local authority is making significant progress.

It was great to see hundreds of children and young people taking part in the Eisteddfod, and those from all schools, regardless of their linguistic background and the language category of their schools. I also know that the number of council staff who've decided to learn Welsh has increased dramatically. Another small but tangible example of a positive impact on Welsh is that many businesses in the area continue to use Welsh signs on their doors and windows. An example that I'm sure the Member will be aware of already, and which you know, is at Zucco’s café, which has added 'Ni’n siarad Cymraeg tipyn bach' under the sign on the door, and that shows more and more people willing to try to use however much Welsh they have, but that's because of the Eisteddfod. Small things, of course, but precious little things. It means we're changing attitudes and encouraging more and more people to come with us on our Cymraeg 2050 journey.

I’m also pleased that the Eisteddfod has forged strong partnerships this year with a large number of local organisations. One of these partnerships was the Bryncynon strategy. The partnership was special for many reasons, both for introducing the Welsh language to new audiences and also for including all parts of the Rhondda Cynon Taf community in the Eisteddfod. The Bryncynon strategy is responsible for foodbanks in the area. As part of their work with the Eisteddfod, local people and the foodbank users wrote a recipe book featuring Welsh recipes, and this is the kind of collaboration that's important. It's the collaboration that goes beyond what's likely to happen anyway. It's important that the Eisteddfod collaborates with traditional and new partners, so that everyone sees and hears the Welsh language around them.

And as I talk about Welsh as a community language, it is timely that I highlight the report of the Welsh communities commission, which was published on the Eisteddfod maes. But the commission also announced the second phase of their work, which is to look closely at the situation of the Welsh language across the rest of Wales and beyond. While this work goes beyond the work of the Eisteddfod, the commission's work will help us to strengthen the Welsh language in areas such as Rhondda Cynon Taf, and the Welsh language, of course, belongs to everyone, wherever they live.

Llywydd, to conclude, I want to finish by acknowledging that we do have work to do, but it has been wonderful to look back at the buzz of the 2024 Eisteddfod and to discuss all of the positives that came from it. Ensuring the legacy of the Eisteddfod is crucially important, and it's true to say that the people of Rhondda Cynon Taf welcomed the festival with open arms, and it's wonderful to see that that work hasn't come to an end. The buzz of the festival has created great interest.

I'm very proud of this good working relationship we've got with the Eisteddfod. I wish all staff and volunteers well as we move towards the 2025 Eisteddfod in Wrexham. 

Good luck to everyone in Wrexham with the preparatory work.

Thank you very much, and thank you to everyone who contributed to that short debate. That  brings our work today to an end.