National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon, and welcome, all, to this Plenary meeting. At the outset, I wish to inform the Senedd that, in accordance with Standing Order 26.75, the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill was given Royal Assent earlier today.

The first item, therefore, this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government, and the first question is from Joel James.

Thank you. Academi Wales delivers a range of leadership interventions to public service leaders across Wales. In 2022, total delegates numbered 2,502, of whom 1,057 were NHS staff. For the first quarter of 2023, a total of 946 delegates have participated so far, with 292 of those delegates being from the NHS.

Thank you, Minister, for your response. As you know, Academi Wales is designed to transform this country through excellence in leadership, but, due to the COVID pandemic, our public sector leaders are now faced with challenges that they've never experienced before. I'm specifically thinking about our NHS leaders and how they have to deal with an ever-increasing complexity of health needs, a shortage of healthcare professionals in many sectors and geographical areas, and an ageing population, many of whom have chronic health conditions, to name just a few. Academi Wales lists a range of leadership training focusing on health boards, coaching and management training, which are standard skill sets that leaders need. But there doesn't seem to be any specific training on dealing with the challenges to the NHS in a post-COVID era. Minister, have you challenged Academi Wales to design this type of training, and what are the Welsh Government's aspirations for training the next generation of NHS leaders? Thank you.

I'm very grateful to Joel James for this question this afternoon, and also for recognising Academi Wales as the centre of excellence that it is in terms of leadership development in Wales. So, Academi Wales does have a range of leadership interventions, including coaching, master classes, programmes and residential schools, and I'm really looking forward to the summer school in Lampeter later on this year. But I will say that NHS staff are one of the key target audiences for Academi Wales, and it does work directly with the NHS for some of its programmes, including, for example, independent members' induction training, and that's part of Academi Wales's efforts to improve and strengthen board level leadership across public services in Wales.

Academi Wales is, of course, not the only place in which NHS staff will receive training. There is a wide range of training available through the NHS itself, including professional development across a range of routes, including everything from work-based training to specialist courses. So, I think it's important to recognise that leadership within that one Welsh public service ethos is very much supported and catered for through Academi Wales, but, absolutely, the NHS has an important role to play. And, for me, it's important that those two ways of learning and ways of supporting leadership development complement each other. Thank you for the question—it's not often we get to talk about Academi Wales on the floor of the Senedd. It is one of the more joyous areas of my portfolio and a really exciting agenda.

Yes. The former Welsh Government office building in North Penrallt is the only empty building owned by the Welsh Government in Caernarfon. The Minister for Climate Change has already written to Gwynedd county council on this matter, and officials are in active discussions with the council to ensure that the building is put back into beneficial use at the earliest opportunity.

Thank you very much. The Government offices in Penrallt have been empty for two years, and the council and a local housing association are eager to use the building to provide temporary accommodation to people who present themselves as homeless. In May, 107 people presented as homeless in Gwynedd. The county spends £6 million on unsuitable accommodation, because there are insufficient temporary places. There would be room for more than 30 people in Penrallt, a site that is in the middle of the town of Caernarfon. Doesn't it make sense, in terms of making effective use of public resources—which is part of your portfolio, to ensure that efficient use of public resources—as well as a whole host of other reasons, to move forward with this scheme? Will you commit today to doing everything within your power to accelerate this scheme?

I'm very grateful for this question this afternoon as well, and I just want to reassure Siân Gwenllian that we are very much seeking to ensure that any redevelopment of the site does deliver new and affordable housing to alleviate the current housing pressures in the area. We are very aware of the significant negative impacts that empty buildings do have on the local environment, and especially so in our town centres. 

I can say that there is a meeting now scheduled between senior Welsh Government officials and the chief executive of Gwynedd county council, and his officers, on Monday of next week. I hope that's an opportunity for us to make some progress and agree a way forward. We've been unable to receive any recommendations from officials at this point in respect of disposal of the building to Gwynedd county council because we do need a more detailed proposal than that which has been forthcoming so far, and that's because I think that any proposals will require some significant grant support. So, any applications for such funding have to undergo a very rigorous process, and very much so to determine value for money. 

But we are, I think, in the same space in terms of wanting the building to be used as soon as possible, and recognising that residential use is a really good use for that site, and there's very much a need for it. So, I do hope that the meeting, now, on Monday of next week will be productive. 

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Sam Rowlands. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, I've spoken before about the issues around abuse of politicians, in particular councillors serving in local government. Minister, you will be aware that yesterday it was reported that the deputy leader of Anglesey council has said that, and I quote,

'All Tories should be shot.'

We'll all be aware, of course, that, in the UK over the last seven years, two MPs have been murdered in their role as parliamentarians—one Labour and one Conservative. This is real, literal violence, and any attempt to insight violence like that, in my view, should be met with the strongest condemnation. The language that Ieuan Williams used, I would say, is obscene and creates a foul atmosphere around our politics, especially from somebody in a leadership position, who has now stood down, as I say, as deputy leader of Anglesey council. Of course, this isn't the first time in recent months that a councillor has done this. We heard earlier this year of a Caerphilly Plaid Cymru councillor posing with a gun and posting about shooting English people. So, Minister, can you share your thoughts on this particular issue in Anglesey and the wider issue of abuse in politics?

Yes, I'm very grateful to Sam Rowlands for raising this, and, actually, it's a topic he returns to frequently in spokesperson's questions, which I think is really, really important, because it is one that I think transcends those party political lines, and one where we have to all stand shoulder to shoulder against any form of abuse. Healthy debate is wonderful; it's really important to be able to challenge each other, but also to do so in a way that is respectful.

And I think that it is the case now that the individual concerned has asked the standards committee of the local authority to look at what happened. I think that is definitely the appropriate way forward, because processes are in place to investigate potential breaches of codes of conduct, and I think that it's important now that that process takes place. But there are sanctions for breaching the code of conduct, and they can range from censure to suspension or disqualification from being a councillor for up to a period of five years. So, it is a serious matter. 

It does give me an opportunity to say that we are currently consulting on a revised code of conduct, to ensure that it does remain fit for purpose in engendering trust in the highest standards of conduct for councillors. And I would obviously encourage colleagues to have their say in that consultation, and particularly to make sure that it is fit for purpose with all of the different things that we have to deal with nowadays, for example, threats online and social media abuse. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Minister. Thank you for that response. Just to expand on the issue slightly further, because, from that particular incident, it also appears that the chief executive of the council was at the meeting where those comments were made, and the chief executive seems to have asked for those comments not to be minuted. I would say that this is staggering, to say the least, because, of course, we'd all advocate and want people to stand up and speak out when things like this happen, not shy away in an attempt to cover it up. You just mentioned there some of the consultation on a revised code of conduct, but, I wonder, can I ask what resources and what support are Welsh Government giving to local authorities in order to support staff and councillors when they're dealing with aggression and hostility, especially in light of the events that we heard about yesterday?

We're working really closely with the Welsh Local Government Association, but also with One Voice Wales, because we know that levels of abuse are increasingly concerning to members of town and community councils as well as principal councils. And we are now working to develop some training on the code of conduct, so that local authorities and those who are elected to serve on councils are aware of the responsibilities of the various partners who operate roles on those bodies, but also ways in which they can find support, in terms of the WLGA, the resources from the local council and also those support mechanisms that lie outside the formal council as well. So, I think that it is something that now has a very strong focus and is a very important part of the work of my officials in the local government department.

Thank you for that response, again, Minister. Certainly, we're supporting efforts to make sure our staff and councillors in local authorities are properly equipped.

I just want to touch, in my last question, on local development plans. I'm sure the First Minister was disappointed yesterday that my question was too far down the order paper to be able to raise a question on it with him yesterday. But, Minister, you will be aware of Wrexham council's recent decision to not support the local development plan that was placed in front of the council. I did note the First Minister made comments on this a few weeks ago here in the Chamber, and I did note that those comments seemed to be mocking the decision of the council. In my view, it's completely disrespectful of local democracy and the mandate that councillors received only last year in those local authority elections. My view is that democracy works best at a local level, and if a local authority does not want to support something, they should be well within their right to not support something. So, in your view, Minister, would you not agree with me that local councils and councillors deserve respect as the people on the ground who know best for their local communities? And what approach will you be taking to build bridges not just with Wrexham council, but with all councils to ensure that they are properly supported in the development of local development plans?

Well, Wrexham is the only local authority in Wales not to have an adopted local development plan in place, and obviously that is a really disappointing position for them to be in. In not adopting a plan, it does remove certainty for communities, for businesses and for investors in Wrexham. We considered the positive report from planning inspectors following the statutory scrutiny process. We consider, as a Welsh Government, that that does enable now the LDP in Wrexham to be adopted, and let's remember we've had 11 years of preparation in Wrexham for this plan, and it was a plan that the council itself considered to be sound and able to be adopted, but yet it hasn't been. I do know that a judicial review was launched by third parties against the decision by the local authority not to adopt the plan, but Wrexham have conceded this judicial review in full. I understand that the authority is now scheduled to consider this again on 14 June. I'm checking my watch—that's today or tomorrow.

I was going to provide clarity, and then I worked out I couldn't work out whether it was 13 or 14 June. 

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Well, Llywydd, I'm hearing incredibly concerning things from local government and the homelessness sector about their ability to deliver homeless prevention measures. Representatives from the sector have told me that many support providers and commissioners have spent the last two months discussing how to reduce and remodel homelessness and housing support services because they don't have the funds to continue delivering services at the same level as they did last year. The lack of any increase to the housing support grant is forcing the sector to cut services in order to pay minimum wage, and the figures published by the Government last week show that over 10,000 people are now in temporary accommodation, causing huge challenges for local government and the sector at large. The sector is now under mor pressure than ever before. The likely reduction in support hours and service delivery is incredibly concerning, and the impact will be felt by the most vulnerable in our society. So, what is the Minister’s message to them and the brilliant front-line workers in local government and third sector who are struggling at the moment? What consideration did the Minister give to providing additional funds from the UK Government spring statement to increase the housing support grant? And what priority will the Minister give to the housing support grant, should the additional funds or in-year savings become available?

I'm very grateful for the question and also to take this opportunity, as you have, to recognise the important work that people in local authorities and those delivering these schemes provide. I will say that the question really is a policy and budget question for the Minister for Climate Change. I’ll make her aware of these concerns. But from my perspective, I will certainly say that, in the three-year spending review that we undertook last year, we did increase the housing support grant by 30 per cent at the start of that three-year spending review period, and that was, I think, a significant uplift.

It wasn’t possible, of course, to do a similar thing in the second year of the three-year spending review just because of the fact that the way in which the money that came from Westminster to Wales was profiled means that we had the majority of it in year 1; years 2 and 3 will inevitably be much more difficult.

The amount of funding that was provided to Wales through the spring statement was absolutely paltry. And let’s remember that this year, our budget is worth £900 million less than it was when we set our budgets, and that is largely the impact of inflation. So, at the moment, we’re really not in the space of being able to allocate additional funding to new things. It is very much about getting a clear sight, really, of the pressures across Government and the impact that inflation is having on our existing plans. So, I don’t want to mislead anybody as to our ability, really, to be providing large amounts of additional funding for new things, much as we would obviously want to be able to.

Thank you for the response. Of course, you didn't mention the increase—[Inaudible.]—the budget was £139 million back in 2012 and, in today's money, that is the equivalent of £186 million. So, in real terms, that's a £20 million cut that they've received over 10 years to the housing support grant. So, any in-year savings would be appreciated.

I want to turn the next question to the European Union and the funding that comes from the EU. And I understand that a total of around £500 million is still remaining to Wales from European funding. We have until the end of this year to ensure that this funding is spent in full. A recent report by Audit Wales on the issue has confirmed that this funding has been allocated, but that the expenditure rate needs to be accelerated significantly. The Minister will also be aware that the beneficiaries of this funding will have to make their final claims by 7 July to the Government.

So, may I ask the Minister where we are with this funding? Is there assurance that this funding will be allocated and spent? And finally, in the context of what I said earlier in terms of the EU membership programmes and in the context of housing, what's the Minister's assessment of the impact of the deficiencies of Westminster's proposals for Wales in terms of post-EU funding and the support available to provide for social housing in Wales?

Thank you very much for that question. The Member will be aware that Audit Wales concluded that the Welsh European Funding Office and the Welsh Government, despite some challenges including delays caused by the COVID-19 pandemic, have managed to commit all of the EU grant funding and more to projects and beneficiaries. 

The report did recognise that we still have some significant funds available to spend during 2023, whilst managing some significant risks to maximising the draw-down of the funding. I can say, though, since the publication of that report, we have made some further progress and seen more improvement in that position: now with only £320 million spend of the structural funds—the European Regional Development Fund and the European Social Fund programmes—remaining. That was the data as of the first week of June, so, I would expect the position to have improved still since then.

The Minister for rural affairs and the Minister for Economy, who are responsible for these schemes, are obviously very actively keeping a close watch on this and driving forward the spend in those places. Obviously, the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee might take some interest in this as well. It's important that we respect the role of PAPAC in that. But, as I say, the position is improving and it's something that the two particular Ministers are very actively involved in.

It is the case, of course, that the funding that will come to Wales following our exit from the EU is just absolutely paltry compared to that which we would have received had we remained in the European Union. I think that's now accepted by more or less everybody. But, I think it's beyond that, part of the problems, really, are about the way in which the UK Government is going about allocating this funding. Going through local government, in some cases, puts some parts of the partnership landscape that we have in Wales against each other. It means that the third sector now, I think, feels that it is not having such a direct impact as it has had in the past. Obviously, the kind of funding cuts out, I suppose, the natural way in which we've previously engaged with further education and higher education. So, it has caused significant problems in terms of the way in which we would have envisaged our post-EU funding to be allocated. That said, of course we will work constructively where we can to maximise the benefit of that funding, and I will have some further discussions with the Minister for Climate Change on that particular point you raised about social housing. 

Question 3, Rhys ab Owen. I'm waiting for Rhys ab Owen's microphone to be unmuted.

If somebody can—. Yes, there we go. Diolch, Rhys.

I unmuted myself, Llywydd. [Laughter.]

I discuss a range of financial issues with local authorities across Wales through regular standing and other meetings. Decisions on the use of their borrowing powers to invest in local priorities are a matter for local elected members. 

Diolch yn fawr, Gweinidog. In a recent meeting of St Fagans Community Council, the First Minister, attending there as the Senedd Member for Cardiff West, highlighted the fact that local government has more borrowing powers than the Welsh Government. The First Minister then went on to say that the Welsh Government were exploring whether local government could use that borrowing power and then the Welsh Government pay back the interest on that borrowed money. That seemed to me an interesting way forward to deal with the current lack of fair funding to Wales from Westminster. Are you in a position, Gweinidog, to update the Senedd on any of these discussions? Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you for the question. So, we have used supported borrowing in the past in terms of supporting local authorities with some of their road maintenance programmes in particular, and that was very much along the model that you described, where the Welsh Government would then provide revenue support to service the debts of that borrowing. It is something that we can continue to have some discussions about. We have talked to local authorities as to whether or not we could use this, for example, in the space of health and social care centres, but because of the rules that surround these matters, it would have to be a project that was very much more in the space of social care than health, so there are some things that we would have to get around to be able to deliver that. Of course, our lack of revenue budget is a challenge in and of itself.

So, we do continue to have these particular discussions with local authorities. We don't have any firm proposals on the table at the moment, but the broad point that you raise is also a really important one in terms of local authorities having more power to borrow. So, the amount of affordable borrowing that a local authority might undertake is determined by a professional assessment of what's affordable, prudent and sustainable for the circumstances of that authority, and then it's referred to the full council to endorse. Now, I think that is very much a model that would be appropriate for us in the Senedd. It would be a case of the Welsh Government coming forward with plans for prudential borrowing and for the Senedd then to scrutinise those plans and agree or otherwise. That is the model that I would prefer to see, especially since our current situation in terms of our annual borrowing limits and the aggregate just aren't really appropriate, and they haven't changed since 2016 and take no account of inflation in that period.

Minister, borrowing powers are a useful tool when deployed correctly to, obviously, improve infrastructure. In the Vale of Glamorgan, the village of Dinas Powys has had great difficulty with its transport infrastructure because of the main arterial route from Barry, which is the largest town in Wales, to Cardiff, which is a big employment centre. Is there scope within the borrowing powers for the local authority to look at major transport infrastructure projects unilaterally, and use those borrowing powers to fund such infrastructure developments in this key bottleneck that is causing so much blight to the villagers of Dinas Powys?

So, the local authority would need to undertake the borrowing fully within the prudential borrowing framework. It does allow local authorities to typically borrow for capital investment purposes, also to refinance existing debt, and then temporary borrowing for any purpose, should there be short-term need, such as if they’re expecting a large capital receipt. They would also then have to have full regard to the proper practices set out in the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy prudential code for capital finance in local authorities, when they are determining their borrowing limit. The overarching requirement of that code, as I was saying to the former Member, is that it would have to be prudent, sustainable and affordable, so I think it would be really for the local authority to be considering its borrowing within those particular confines.

We have provided over £3 billion of support to those most affected by the cost-of-living crisis, including support channelled through local authorities. I continue to engage closely with the Minister for Social Justice on this issue, including through our work as members on the cost-of-living Cabinet sub-committee.

Thank you very much for that response, Minister.

The upcoming refresh to the child poverty strategy scheduled for autumn this year presents an opportunity to really think ambitiously about the ways that this long-standing issue can be tackled. It is, of course, a responsibility that will cut across Government budgets and a variety of portfolios. Now, with local government settlements stretched, charities such as Barnardo’s Cymru are calling for the Welsh Government to ring-fence funding for local authorities directed at supporting children in poverty, as well as further investment in local government-administered services such as Flying Start and Families First. So, with the renewed strategy around the corner, have you discussed with the Minister for Social Justice whether additional resources will be allocated and ring-fenced for measures such as these?

Thank you for the question. So, we are working with partners, and with over 3,000 children, actually, to deliver that strategy, and also working with the organisations in the sector. The strategy that we will consult on sets out what we’ve heard, what we’re doing about it, and where we’ll be focusing our efforts in future. The aim then is to produce that final strategy by the end of this year and work with partners to deliver that strategy.

What I would say in terms of ring-fencing funding, actually that moves in a different direction to that which we’re taking at the moment, so we have a programme for government commitment to reduce the administrative burden on local authorities. So, Welsh Government officials held a number of important meetings with local authorities. I’ve spoken to leaders, they’ve spoken to the Society of Welsh Treasurers, and have concluded that one of the biggest burdens administratively on local authorities was the way in which we deal with grants. So, we’re actually going through a process at the moment of reviewing our grants in Wales along the lines of considering whether these grants can be moved into the RSG without having an impact on delivery, because some of the grants that we deal with are very small and probably disproportionate, I think, in terms of the industry of work that is created to administer those grants. So, we are moving in a different direction; it’s more about that trusting relationship that we have with local government. But that said, when we do consider individual grants, we do so having a full impact assessment, because obviously, we don’t want to be doing anything that causes harm to those people who we’re trying to support. So, this is a piece of work that is just starting at the moment, but just to say, really, our broad direction is about the dehypothecation rather than ring fencing.

Minister, last week, the older people’s commissioner said that the cost-of-living crisis meant that activities that help prevent loneliness are no longer affordable for older people. The commissioner said that support for community groups and volunteers working to combat loneliness is so important as we face the cost-of-living crisis. Minister, what considerations have you given to providing ring-fenced funding to local authorities to enable them to support community groups tackling loneliness and isolation, especially as many councils continue to cut back on services such as day centres and libraries?

I would refer the Member to the previous question in terms of our approach to ring fencing of funding and that we're moving in a different direction, really, about having that relationship of trust with local authorities, understanding that they know their communities best and that we don't want to be taking officer time up with filling forms in when it's disproportionate to do so. So, we are moving away from that ring fencing where possible and where it is appropriate to do so—it won't be in all cases.

But the point that you make really is about how we support older people through the cost-of-living crisis. I think one of the important things that we did was introduce the grant funding to local authorities to set up warm hubs. I know they've been absolutely invaluable for older people in particular across the winter, but actually some of those hubs are now continuing as welcome spaces, and they're continuing right through the summer and potentially beyond, to provide that place for people to go—older people, of course, but others too, to try and alleviate some of that loneliness and isolation that people are feeling. Again, it's something that I know is a real priority for the Minister.

I am grateful to local authority partners for their work and progress in establishing corporate joint committees. These were provided for by the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 to support regional working where it makes sense to do so.

Thank you for that, Minister. There are different configurations at play, aren't there, in different parts of Wales, with regard to joint working between local authorities, and it can get quite complicated. In south-east Wales and in Newport East, Minister, we have the Burns commission with its proposals for better integrated transport, which is really important for the future of the area, and in Newport East that involves Newport City Council and Monmouthshire County Council. We also, of course, have the corporate joint committee and the city deal. I just wonder, with an agenda as important as the Burns commission, what is the Welsh Government's role in assessing the effectiveness of the joint working between the different organisational structures, and whether that's going forward at the pace and making the progress that Welsh Government would like to see.

I'm very grateful to John Griffiths for the question. On this occasion, Llywydd, I might ask the Minister with responsibility for transport to provide a more detailed response to that, because my role in respect of corporate joint committees is more around the governance of those partnerships. I did meet recently with the Minister for Climate Change, the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, and also the Minister for Economy, with all of the CJCs and we talked about their important role in terms of planning, transport and economic development, making sure that those things are properly joined up and dealt with in a collaborative and strategic way. I should say, at this point, thank you to the Local Government and Housing Committee for the interest that you've taken in CJCs in particular. I'm very much looking forward to hearing more about what the committee's conclusions are.

The Minister will be aware that prior to my colleague, Sam Rowlands, I actually held the portfolio for local government for nine years here, and over that time we saw off three whole-scale plans for merging local authorities. At the time, it was talked up that local authorities would actually start working more closely together. As a member of Conwy County Borough Council in 2004, in cabinet, I remember talks at that time about having a north Wales payroll system. Now, only recently, we've lost a bus service in my area, the T19, and all we needed to support that bus service running was co-operation from Gwynedd county council, but we had no representation whatsoever from them on that aspect, and as a result of that we have lost a very valuable bus service. So, what actual plans are in place to continue the theory going forwards of more joint working between local authorities, and one that is meaningful? Thank you.

I think there is a great deal of joint working going forward now and CJCs, I think, are now really starting to work very well together. We have managed to work with the UK Government, actually, to deal with some of the key operational issues that were facing CJCs, including in relation to VAT and wider taxation issues. UK Government did introduce legislation to deal with those matters, because CJCs themselves felt that not having those taxation matters dealt with was preventing them, really, from moving forward together. So, I'm pleased that those issues have now been dealt with.

I think that I will also mention a piece of work that I've been doing with Cefin Campbell through our co-operation agreement, which is a review of the partnership landscape across Wales to make sure that the landscape that we have at the moment is fit for purpose. And as part of that work—and it didn't include CJCs, but it did include regional partnership boards, substance misuse boards, and also violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence and a whole range of other boards—we met with all of the chairs of those over a period of time and heard about their experiences in terms of the barriers to better collaboration. So, now we're pulling together everything that we've heard from those conversations, and we'll be presenting a paper to the partnership council for Wales in July. We'll make sure that the Senedd is fully updated on our findings and our recommendations for the way forward as well.

Continuing with this theme—

Yes. Public services boards are an effective vehicle for cross-public-service collaboration. Each has its own strengths and priorities. PSBs are now publishing their updated local well-being plans, and I'm working with the future generations commissioner to consider how best to support PSBs to deliver these.

Thank you. Clearly, PSBs play a crucial role in delivering on the seven well-being goals and the ways of working of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. What role, in your view, are PSBs playing in tackling food security, whether it's nurturing local farming and food businesses, procuring food locally for schools, hospitals and homes, or ensuring affordable food is available locally to all households in the midst of this cost-of-living crisis?

I'm really grateful to Jenny Rathbone for raising this and, in anticipation of her question this afternoon, because I know how passionate Jenny is in terms of ensuring food security and the availability of good quality food, I have asked officials to look at all nine of the 13 public services boards' well-being plans that have been published so far. And I'm really pleased that all of those plans have prioritised food in at least one of their objectives, and the priorities relate to sustainable food, food security, food poverty and also supply chains, depending on the particular focus of the PSB. PSBs have learned, from experience, that having too many objectives, I think, was difficult in the past. So, they have narrowed down those number of objectives, but to have food as part of those objectives in all of those plans I think really speaks to the important role that PSBs themselves recognise that they can play in this particular space.

We are expecting all of the remaining plans to be submitted very shortly, and it's the intention then to publish those as a suite together. But, yes, PSBs, I think, have a really important role to play. And I did have the opportunity to speak to the future generations commissioner earlier this week. I know that Jenny met with him last week to discuss some of these issues as well. So, we're, I think, all very much on the same page.

Yes, I will. Since its introduction in 2009, the invest-to-save programme has supported approximately 200 projects, with an aggregate value in the region of £200 million. Most recently, it has provided funding for three new projects, helping us to deliver our programme for government commitment in respect of looked-after children. 

Can I thank the Minister for that response? Invest-to-save is a project I've consistently supported. Using investment to produce long-term savings by greater efficiency will increase productivity. This is the way forward for the public sector, assuming we're not going to have infinite sums of money in the future. Will the Minister comment on the success of invest-to-save and how the learning from projects is being copied by other organisations? As we've seen far too often, in Wales, everyone has to discover the benefits themselves as if it was for the first time.

Absolutely, and I share Mike Hedges's passion, if you like, for invest-to-save and everything that that means for the future way in which we fund various things across Wales. And at this point, I just really recognise the work that Jane Dodds has done in this space as well, because the work that we're funding at the moment comes very much as part of the discussions that Jane and I had during the budget negotiations and discussions the year before last. So, as a result of that now, we have projects funding advocacy services to prevent families from breaking up; £1 million is now with the National Adoption Service to continue their Fostering Wellbeing programme; and also £4.4 million to support Foster Wales and enable them to expand their provision so that they can improve the ability of local authority fostering services to retain and support foster carers. So, I think all of that is really important, and I think the learning will spread probably more easily in the space of looked-after children and foster carers than it has in some other places. I know one of Mike Hedges's real concerns, and mine too, has been about how it's been difficult to move the success from the projects that have been supported through invest-to-save to making it kind of business as usual, making it the natural choice for businesses—sorry, for organisations—across Wales.

We did have some work done with Cardiff University, Nesta, that looked at why good practice was struggling to be spread across Wales through the invest-to-save scheme, and I think that we've been able to use that learning to find better ways to support some of the work that has taken place.

Currently, we have the invest-to-save funds ring-fenced within the health and social services group, and also within the looked-after children's team. I'll perhaps write to Mike Hedges with a bit more information about those things. 

The Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 put in place a new sector-led performance regime to drive improvement in local authorities across Wales. To support implementation, I have agreed £800,000 of funding for the Welsh Local Government Association improvement programme to provide for shared learning and corporate improvement across councils.

Thank you, Minister, that's excellent news. There seems to be a theme today on sharing of best practice and information between our councils, and it's something that I'm finding is lacking in policy areas across the board. Despite the sharing of best practice and information between councils being primarily the responsibility of the WLGA, as you've just said, and PSBs, as has already been outlined, surely it falls upon each Minister to ensure that delivery of policy is happening across the board and is happening to the very best standard across our country. The very best way to share this, of course, just from some examples of this, of what's not happening and what should be happening, is the Raglan Project in Monmouthshire County Council, for example, or perhaps a council that's excelling in recycling or delivering healthy food in our schools or having a mental health strategy in our schools that's really working. This sort of information, this sort of sharing of good practice, is not being shared, and it seems to be remiss of the Government to not ensure that their policies are being delivered properly on the ground. To that end, Minister, what action is the Welsh Government taking, and each Minister taking, to work alongside the WLGA to ensure that best practice is shared to each corner of Wales? Thank you.

Well, Ministers and officials regularly engage with a wide range of local authority-led networks in relation to the breadth of the sector's functions. So, those will include Cabinet members, it will include spokespeople for the WLGA and also officers will meet with our officials across the whole range of functions, and those really are invaluable opportunities for us to share opportunities and to hear the challenges, of course, that local authorities are experiencing in terms of delivering their functions as well.

I would say that our relationship with local government is a very open and honest one. I think that the level of engagement that we have is quite extraordinary in terms of the amount of meetings that take place both between Ministers and local authorities, but also between officials and officers. But, if there's more that we need to do, or if there are particular gaps where those networks are not in place, I would obviously look to close those. So, perhaps, if Laura Anne Jones wants to share with me some of the more detailed concerns, I'd be more than happy to look into those.

Finally, cwestiwn 9, Natasha Asghar. 

The Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 requires principal councils to put in place a participation strategy. This must set out how the council intends to encourage and enable local people to participate in decision making and scrutiny processes.

Thank you for your answer, Minister. As you'll be well aware, constituents often turn to us for help in their darkest hour, and usually, after they've been passed from pillar to post by local authorities and other agencies, they come to us with their woes and issues. Now, in fact, a lot of constituents I help aren't actually getting responses to the letters and e-mails they've been sending to their local authorities, and one council in south-east Wales in particular has been particularly poor with their responses. I can say that I know exactly how they're feeling, having written to this particular council, raising my constituents' issues on countless occasions. Sometimes I'll get a reply, albeit not very useful, but a reply nonetheless. Sometimes you may be redirected elsewhere or, as is often the case, the letters will get ignored. In one instance, I'm still waiting for a reply to a letter I sent on behalf of a constituent several months ago, despite chasing the local authority for the response. Minister, do you agree with me that this is simply unacceptable? And will you please write to all local authority leaders in south-east Wales, calling upon each and every single one of them to urgently review these processes, to ensure that constituents are responded to within a reasonable time frame and, if it is the case, that no party politics are at play?

Well, there are local protocols in place for dealing with issues when the council hasn't acted as it should when carrying out its duties. But, perhaps if the Member could could either have a conversation with me or write to me outside of this meeting, I'll look at the particular issue that is being discussed this afternoon.

 I thank the Minister.

The next item is the questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd, and the first question is from Rhys ab Owen.

A team Wales approach is taken to protect and manage wildlife. Welsh Government has recently provided over £1 million for projects in the Vale of Glamorgan, to deliver nature-based projects, enable partnership working and improve connections between nature habitats in the Vale of Glamorgan.

Diolch, Weinidog. I've raised with you before the Model Farm issue, in Rhoose, in the Vale of Glamorgan, which grows and sells wildflowers, and it's under threat due to plans to build an industrial park on its land. The Jenkins family have been tenants on the farm for nearly 100 years, and the improvements to the rights of tenant farmers contained in the Agriculture (Wales) Bill will come too late for them, if they are turfed out of their land. This is not just their place of work; it's their home, their home for generations, destroyed. And what makes this story even more tragic is that this family also lost a previous farm in the 1940s in the Epynt, when their family were forced to leave when the British army seized their land. That family in the Epynt have yet to return, and the fear now for the Jenkins family is that they will lose their livelihood and their home yet again, but this time through an international developer rather than the British state. What can the Welsh Government do to protect the farm, to protect farmers like the Jenkins family, and the wildlife it sustains?

Thank you. I'm very sorry to hear about the experience of the Jenkins family. Clearly, tenant farmers are very important to us in Wales. A significant percentage of our farmers here in Wales are tenant farmers. There is obviously protection for tenants; they should obviously take the matter up with their landlords, and I would also urge them to contact the Tenant Farmers Association, to see if there's anything they can do to help. And, if you'd like to write to me, whilst I can't obviously interfere in an individual case, I will see if there's anything that we can do to help as well.

I've raised the issue of Model Farm with various Ministers in the Senedd here. The quality of land being protected is a component of the planning system. I appreciate it's not in your portfolio, Minister, but, obviously, that assessment of the quality of the land, and the protection of the wildlife on that land, should be a critical consideration within the planning system. It clearly isn't, when an example like Model Farm, where the local authority itself is promoting a business park that isn't required—and is proven not to be required, even by the developers themselves, who say it's a speculative development—and yet, over 100 acres of quality agricultural land that is habitat to many natural species that can be found in the Vale of Glamorgan is to be lost. So, what dialogue is undertaken between your officials and the planning Minister's officials to make sure that there are robust checks and balances within the planning system, that good-quality agricultural land that is of quality natural habitat as well is not sacrificed to unwanted developments such as the Model Farm business park?

[Inaudible.]—a significant amount of work and certainly, within my own portfolio, we've looked at land classification of agricultural land, because, as you say, it's very important that, as far as possible, it's protected for sustainable food production and also for our important habitats. I'm not aware of any specific conversations between my officials and the Minister for Climate Change's officials, particularly around the Model Farm that you've just raised with me. As I said in my answer to Rhys ab Owen, if he wants to write to me about it, I'll certainly be happy to look it up.

The Welsh food and drink industry continues to go from strength to strength, growing in both scale and reputation. Welsh Government is promoting food in north Wales through our food festivals, which include Gŵyl Fwyd Caernarfon, Wrexham Food Festival, Menai Food Festival, Denbigh Plum Festival and Llangollen Food Festival, to name but a few, as well as at our agricultural shows. 

Thank you very much, Minister. As I'm sure you'd agree, north Wales has some of the best food and drink, which is enjoyed around the world, and certainly will be enjoyed by a greater range of people, thanks to the trade deals being struck by the UK Government now being released from the shackles of the European Union.

One of the things, though, Minister, that breweries and other similar businesses in north Wales are concerned about is the possibility of glass being included in a deposit-return scheme. In my view, there's a commonsense DRS that excludes glass, and would see the scheme and its requirements aligned across the United Kingdom. You'll be aware that brewers are certainly very concerned, and potentially seeing breweries going out of business if this continues. So, Minister, can you expand on what you're doing to help reach this sensible UK-wide outcome, instead of doing things perhaps differently just for the sake of it? Thank you.  

Well, I see you're copying your leader. I noticed his tweet about doing things differently. It's not in my portfolio—it's in the portfolio of the Minister for Climate Change—but it previously was in my portfolio when we first went out to consultation about a DRS. And I have to say that I think it's England doing things differently for the sake of it. Certainly, when I was the Minister with responsibility, I remember having conversations with Thérèse Coffey in her previous ministerial position, along with our Scottish counterparts, and glass was absolutely part of that scheme. So, if anybody is doing things differently for the sake of it, I think it's England. 

I agree with what you say about north Wales hosting some of the best food and drink producers we have here in Wales. I disagree profoundly with you about the shackles of the EU being removed now, and, certainly, I haven't seen anything in the trade agreements that are currently being negotiated between the UK Government and other countries that demonstrate any clear benefits. But I do accept that there are concerns from some of the brewers, and I have had discussions, actually not with the Minister for Climate Change, but with the Minister for Economy. We met with some of the drink sector to discuss those concerns.

Questions now from party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, the recent Audit Wales report highlighted that, at the end of March, £58 million remained unspent from the rural development programme, with the deadline for spending this money being the end of this year. How confident are you that all this money will be spent, and not a penny will be returned to the EU? 

I'm just as confident as the last time I was asked this question. It seems a lot of opposition Members are constantly asking me how confident I am about it. You mentioned a figure. Over £765 million of the total programme spend has now been spent; there's about 10 per cent still to go. And as you said yourself, we have until the end of this year to make sure all that money is spent. So, I can only be confident about what I've done, so what I've done is try to make sure that we've over-committed, because I think you have to learn lessons from previous programmes. Clearly, over-committing, I think, is okay to do, because there's quite often an underspend, because of challenges that beneficiaries face—I'm not criticising—and obviously COVID came along and there have been even more challenges. So, what I've been very clear about with my officials is they must work closely with the beneficiaries. It's really important that the beneficiaries, who tell us they can spend that money, do that. I've done what I can do; I want them to do what they can do, but also if they have any concerns, to highlight them with my officials as soon as possible. 

Thank you for those reassurances, Minister, but if we are being honest, the Welsh Government has a bit of a chequered history when delivering the rural development plan. In June 2020, Audit Wales identified that key aspects of the design, operation and oversight of the rural development fund were not effective enough to ensure that grant awards would deliver value for money. That's a damning indictment of the Welsh Government's performance. And that's without touching on the fact that your Government moved the absolute maximum amount of money away from direct support for Welsh farmers via pillar 1, over to pillar 2 and the RDP—the highest anywhere in the European Union. You've refused multiple requests from me and the unions to hold an independent review into the RDP delivery, and that ship has now sailed. But given the importance of future schemes, can you outline what lessons—and you mentioned lessons learnt—but what lessons have been learned from those experiences, so that Audit Wales aren't repeating the same criticisms in the near future?

Well, again, I will repeat what I’ve said many times in the Chamber, what lessons were learned, and it’s really important lessons are learned; I’m not dismissing that at all. The findings of the 2020 Audit Wales report have already been addressed, so we’ve had enhanced selection rules implemented to ensure that projects are selected openly and fairly. Projects were selected in merit order in accordance with the published scoring procedure, and value for money is a criteria for all project awards. And those principles are absolutely embedded within the RDP grant appraisal model, and are in place for any current and future rural investment schemes. We didn’t need an independent inquiry, because this programme is scrutinised within an inch of its life. There is a huge amount of scrutiny in relation to this programme.

Thank you, Minister, and yes, you mentioned that it was scrutinised, and we’re grateful for the work that Audit Wales did back in 2020 to bring that to light.

But, finally, you recently made a joint announcement with the Minister for Climate Change regarding tree planting in Wales, which states:

'payment rates will be uplifted to pay 100% of 2023's actual costs'.

Can I ask from where this money has been found to pay for this uplift? And as next month I believe you’re due to make a statement on the sustainable farming scheme ahead of the summer agricultural shows, was this joint statement by the climate change Minister and yourself just a sign of things to come: trees over everything else? Because I attended the Royal Welsh Agricultural Society’s Regen event at Sealands Farm in the Vale of Glamorgan last week, to see the good work that farmers are already doing through regenerative farming, and that’s what should be supported. I note that the Minister was unable to attend, but some of your officials were there. So, what guarantees can you give that the SFS will actually be tailored to support those farmers who are producing environmentally friendly food, be they tenants, upland farmers or lowland farmers? Diolch, Llywydd.

I’m very pleased you were able to attend the Regen '23 event at Sealands Farm. I’m looking forward to visiting Sealands Farm, I hope before summer recess, or certainly as we just go into summer recess, because I’ve heard of the excellent work that’s being undertaken there; as you say, some officials were able to attend.

Obviously, we’re still in the co-design phase of SFS. I will be bringing forward a statement before we go into summer recess. You’ll know from our many discussions that sustainable food production is absolutely at the heart of the sustainable farming scheme, but we need to plant more trees. We know that. I’m sure you’ve had the opportunity to read the latest UK Climate Change Committee report that if we are going to meet our carbon emission targets, particularly around agriculture, those trees need to be there.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Thank you, Llywydd. Well, it’s another sunny and hot day with the sun shining as it has been for around six weeks now. It’s early in the year to be talking about drought, but the truth is that the grass is already parched and the rivers are running dry, whilst a number of farmers have got their first cut in early in the year. The lack of rain means that the growth of grass for the second cut will be difficult, which will lead to difficulties with feed, not only with a shortage of grass on grazing land over the summer, but also with hay being in short supply as we look to the winter too. The price of buying in hay will increase, and drinking water will become scarce.

So, will the Minister give us an assessment of the impact of the higher temperatures and the decline in rainfall on agriculture, particularly with regard to crops and feed? Also, what steps is the Government taking to support farmers and to ensure the resilience of Welsh farms during these dry months, and those that are to come?

Well, we are certainly seeing the impacts of climate change, aren’t we? I was reflecting, because I remember a Royal Welsh Show—it’s probably about five years ago now—where we were in a very similar position. We all know what the temperatures at last year’s Royal Welsh Show were, and the fact is that this is now becoming much more the norm than what we were facing probably a decade ago, even.

I haven’t had any specific discussions about support for the agricultural sector. I’m sure it will come, and as we approach the Royal Welsh Show and the other agricultural shows in particular, I’m sure it will be a topic of conversation. I remember having a drought summit at one Royal Welsh Show because things had indeed got that bad. But as you know, everything we’re doing through the Agriculture (Wales) Bill and through the sustainable farming scheme that we will be bringing forward is to help our farmers become more competitive and more resilient as we certainly face the impact of climate change.

I thank the Minister for that response. I want to turn now to Glastir. Glastir, of course, is vital for a number of farmers in Wales—indeed, it's equivalent to between 10 per cent and 20 per cent of the turnover of a number of our farms. It's an important programme, which gives financial security to a number of farmers as they deliver steps to safeguard the environment and help the restoration of nature, such as improving water quality, protecting biodiversity, tree planting, developing habitats of importance, amongst other steps. But farmers have been in touch concerned about the stability of these payments in looking forward to next year. So, in the face of these concerns and the importance of Glastir to a number of our farmers, I wonder whether the Minister can give assurance to those farms today with regard to the Glastir payments for next year, and ensure that farmers hear what the financial plans are for 2024. 

Unfortunately, I can't give that assurance today. As we know, I extended Glastir contracts for a further year, which will take us up to the end of this year. I'm awaiting advice on what we do in relation to next year. Obviously, we're looking at the sustainable farming scheme, and that will be that transition, which, obviously, isn't until 2025, so we do have that gap in 2024. But I'm afraid I can't give any detail today.

Thank you. Welsh Government works closely with the Royal Welsh Agricultural Society and the Association of Show and Agricultural Organisations to support the development of the agricultural show sector across the whole of Wales.

Thank you, Minister. Our summer and agricultural shows truly embody the best of what Wales has to offer, and I thoroughly enjoy supporting them across my region of South Wales East, and beyond, and enjoy the world-class produce that my region boasts. We need to promote that more on a world stage. Sadly, the chairman of the Association of Show and Agricultural Organisations, Emlyn Jones, recently spoke about the challenges faced by agricultural shows this year. He said that there are a lot of things to fight against, such as sponsorship withdrawal. He also said that costs have increased for those keeping livestock, which has caused a 20 per cent to 30 per cent decrease in sheep, cattle and horse entries. Aled Rhys Jones, chief exec of the Royal Welsh Agricultural Society, also explained that many aspects of the infrastructure involved in enacting shows are costing a huge amount more than in 2019. I saw this in my own region, with the 150-year-old Monmouthshire Show, of course, being cancelled due to financial restraints last year. To me, this just sums up how fragile and vulnerable our shows actually are, and how much they need our support, encouragement, promotion and financial backing where possible in the coming summers. So, Minister, what support and moneys is the Welsh Government offering to our agricultural shows, to ensure that they can continue to show off the best Wales has to offer, for years to come?

Thank you. I don't disagree with anything you say about our agricultural shows—they are absolutely part of the fabric Wales, and I too enjoy attending many of them across Wales. The significant amount of funding, obviously, goes to the Royal Welsh Show, which is obviously a massive showcase for the sector here in Wales, and we support other shows as well. I know there are a few of the agricultural shows in your own region that benefited from money when we had the innovation fund during COVID, where, unfortunately, shows couldn't go ahead. I think you make a really important point about public support; it's really important that we all ask ourselves what we can do as members of the public to support the shows. I saw what Emlyn Jones said, and I certainly have had several discussions with Aled Jones, as he approaches his first Royal Welsh Show as chief executive. I know, for instance, they're not going forward with the horticultural marquee, which I think is a real shame—they've got some other ideas, which are very exciting and innovative, and we certainly support them. What I would say is that I don't have much money, there's no point pretending I do, but if there's any show—. There was one show in your constituency—I think it was Machen—that had just over £200, which really helped them. That's a very small amount of money on the scale of things. So, if there is a show that feels we can help in some small way—and it would be a small amount of money—please get them to write to me, and I'll certainly look at it.

The Welsh Government is committed to restoring freshwater habitats. We have put in place new regulations, supported with funding and advice, to ensure we reduce losses of pollutants from agriculture to the environment. We are building nature networks, protecting wildlife, working in partnership with Natural Resources Wales, and others, and delivering our sustainable farming scheme. 

Thank you, Minister. I was delighted to hear that otters have been spotted around stretches of the River Cynon following a clean-up project. Otter numbers had declined due to pollution levels on the rivers, but their return is a welcome sight, and it's thanks to the River for All  project, which aims to improve biodiversity with volunteers restoring and monitoring the rivers. Of course, the River Cynon is lucky to have received private funding and a team of volunteers to carry out the clean-up operations. Rivers in my region are not that lucky. Minister, what action will the Welsh Government take to replicate the fantastic work by the River for All project across South Wales West, to ensure that otters and other river wildlife are a common sight once again?

I saw the article on the BBC that I think the Member is referring to, where otters were returning to the River Cynon following that clean-up that you referred to. Certainly, in north Wales, I've been invited to go and view an area where otters have returned as well. Clearly, it is something that I think we should absolutely encourage, and if there's anything we can do—. We have a few pots of money, different schemes, where we can help ensure that that continues to happen, and I'd be very happy to look at them. The majority of the schemes are within the Minister for Climate Change's portfolio, but I'll be happy to have that discussion with her. 

Thank you. I am extremely frustrated and disappointed with the UK Government’s decision to dismantle the Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill, and I've written to the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs expressing my frustration. My officials are currently considering Wales’s options and are working at pace to determine the next steps.

Thank you for that answer, Minister. I, like you, am very disappointed to see the UK Government's latest u-turn. It could have driven forward improvements in the lives of millions of animals in the UK. I appreciate several elements of the Bill relate to reserved matters, but note that the Welsh Government had previously indicated that it would be minded to introduce a legislative consent memorandum, so that its provisions applied to Wales. With that in mind, do you have any intention of bringing forward your own proposals over the areas that are devolved, such as the keeping of primates as pets, as part of the Welsh Government's wider work to improve animal welfare in Wales?

Thank you. As I say, we've done an incredible amount of work in relation to this Bill, because, contrary to what Sam Rowlands has just mentioned, and Andrew RT Davies tweets about, we don't have to do things differently. [Interruption.] About being different—I'm very happy to work with the UK Government if I think it's for the benefit of Wales; I'm not happy to work with them if I think they're being disrespectful or not doing the things that we would want.

I was very happy to work with the UK Government on this Bill, because I really felt it would deliver significant benefits for animal welfare here in Wales, which, as you know, Vikki, the same as you, is a priority for me. I could see this coming. I'd had numerous conversations with the Secretary of State, and with the Minister of State in our regular inter-ministerial group meetings. I'd even written—because I could see this was coming—to try and encourage them that, after such a significant amount of work, they would not just throw this Bill away.

I understand from my officials now that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs do intend to advance some of the provisions in the Bill, and one of them is around primates, as a statutory instrument under the Animal Welfare Act 2006. So, I will certainly look to see if there's anything we can do to work with them on that. My understanding is that they would look to introduce legislation by the end of this year, but again, apparently, it came with a caveat that this was an ambitious timetable. So, frankly, I don't trust them on it. It's really important that my officials now do look to see what we can do with the provisions—you mentioned the one about primates—and I know officials are currently working with lawyers to determine how we can progress. 

The Welsh Government offers a range of support to assist agricultural businesses to diversify. The subsidised advice, mentoring and training provided by Farming Connect complements our grant schemes. Alongside our dedicated diversification grant, our horticulture and food business investment grants offer opportunities and support for farm businesses to branch out.

Thank you for your answer, Minister. One area I'm particularly concerned about, and I know the farming community are concerned about, is when Welsh Government encourage, rightly so, farming businesses to diversify, they then feel like they're being ultimately punished by particular policy decisions of the Welsh Government—the tourism tax being one, for example—when those farm businesses have been asked to diversify into those types of areas.

But the particular issue I wanted to raise with you, Minister, is NRW's consultation on game birds. The farming community certainly hopes, and so do colleagues on this side, that this won't morph into a ban on the shooting of game, because aside from the environmental benefits, the economic importance to the sector is considerable. Several shooting businesses exist because agricultural businesses have diversified. So, can I ask the Minister to make representations in Cabinet to persuade her colleagues, in order that we don't see a policy position that ends up in the banning of shooting game that would have a real devastating impact on many rural farming businesses and communities?

I certainly haven't had complaints from the agricultural sector that if they diversify they would then feel they were being punished. I think it's nearly 50 per cent now of non-micro farms across Wales that have had some diversification action, so I think you can see how important it is for our farming businesses to build that resilience that we were talking about before and is needed. It really does provide an opportunity, I think, for farmers to protect their businesses from the impact of price fluctuations, for instance.

You refer to a consultation that's currently going ahead. You wouldn't expect me to pre-empt it. It's not in my portfolio. But these things come along, as you say, as policy. Obviously I make representations, if needed, but looking at the consultation that's going ahead, I think we need to await the responses. 

The Welsh Government has until 31 December 2023 to fully spend all of its EU funding, which I remain fully committed to achieving. I was pleased to see Audit Wales recognise the steps we have taken to overcommit our available funding in order to maximise spending in Wales. 

Thank you for that response. Of course, it's a great disappointment that the Minister and I will share that we are discussing the final expenditure from the rural development programme, which has been so important to areas such as my constituency, and not being part of the next cycle of funding will be a major blow. I appreciate the challenges that have faced the Government recently, inflation being one of them, but I do welcome the news in the report that the Government has been able to spend a fair amount of the remaining budget for 2023. But there is still £58 million remaining. I represent a rural area. I want to help the Minister to spend this money. Last week, I visited Food Works in Weston-super-Mare, which is a model of the kind of food production park that I've raised with the Minister on a number of occasions. Give us an opportunity. We will help you to spend that money on Anglesey on such a scheme. 

This isn't money that's just slopping around. All this money has been committed, plus I have overcommitted, as you referred to. I don't think you were in the Chamber when I answered three questions from Sam Kurtz on the RDP and the Audit Wales report that you referred to. What I said to Sam Kurtz, and I will repeat for your benefit, is I've overcommitted because we've learnt lessons. We know that quite often there are underspends because sometimes it's difficult for beneficiaries to be able to spend the money, due to a variety of challenges. I've done everything I can to make sure we get as much money out as quickly as possible. You referred to the £58 million. That represents less than 10 per cent of the entire programme. They've still got until the end of December to spend that money. What's really important is that if there are any difficulties with spending that money, my officials are told about them quickly, so that we can look to see what we can do to help, because it's really important that we maximise the spend in response to all the challenges that we've had. We do need to work together, but I'm afraid there isn't any money that I can now allocate to anybody else, because that money has long been allocated and we've overcommitted. But I do agree with you that it's really disappointing that we're not going to have that funding anymore.

I'd just like to press the Minister on this further. It's very good to hear that you said this money has been overcommitted and you're confident that this money will be spent, but, for the benefit of all Members in this Chamber, if you could just outline what some of those projects are, and if you'd be willing to share a list of those projects around to Members, so that we can all see that Welsh Government is spending this money and that none of this money is going to be returned back to the UK.

Okay, I'll repeat it again: I cannot spend the money; I have allocated the money. I have overallocated the money, and I've done everything I can—[Interruption.] It's now up to the—[Interruption.] Do you want to listen? Good. It's up to the beneficiaries, who've told us that they can absolutely spend that money, that they spend that money. It's really important that they give us a heads-up if there are any difficulties so that officials can work with them to make sure. So, whilst I say I am confident, obviously I'm not spending that money. If I was spending that money, I would be more confident, wouldn't I? But I'm confident that what we've done, by learning lessons from previous RDP schemes, where we know there is always an underspend, by overcommitting the funding, I hope that we will absolutely maximise that spending. I don't want to send any money back to the UK Government, I can absolutely assure you, or to the European Union prior to that. It's really important that that money is spent here in Wales. Certainly, from a commercial point of view, if I am able to allow Members to have access to information around the schemes, I'd be very happy to do that, but I will have to check that.

Good afternoon, Minister. I just want to focus on small businesses and microbusinesses, particularly in rural areas. Many of those will be Welsh speaking microbusinesses and small family firms. The RDP has helped some of those small businesses and microbusinesses, particularly in Welsh-speaking communities. I just really want to just seek your assurances that the scheme going forward—the RDP replacement or whatever it will be—will actually look at ensuring that the support continues to those small businesses and microbusinesses, and how you will also be measuring that and ensuring that there's a good impact, particularly on our Welsh-speaking rural communities as well. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you. We're not having a replacement RDP programme, because I'm not sure what funding I'm going to get from the UK Government, and, as you know, our big scheme will be the sustainable farming scheme, and it's really important that every farm is able to access that. But, obviously, you're talking about rural economy, and I think again it is very important that we do as much as we can to recognise the importance of community-led approaches, if you like, to the challenges that our rural economy does face. So, I will have to look at the budget. There are really significant limitations being placed on us as a Government on funding by the UK Government. If you look at their approach to the shared prosperity fund, for instance, and the limited budget that's available to us, I've had to prioritise my core commitments. So, if you look at the LEADER programme, for instance, I think that's an excellent scheme that we've had in our rural communities, but I simply don't have the funding available to continue with this programme. But what we are doing—and it's not just in my portfolio, but right across Government with my Cabinet colleagues—is looking at what wider rural issues we can support through the delivery of the programme for government.

Thank you. The UK Government's Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill proposed prohibiting the keeping, breeding, sale and transfer of primates without specific licence. I supported its provisions in full and I'm extremely frustrated it's been dismantled.

I just want to say very unequivocally that primates are not suitable to be kept as pets, and certainly homes are not suitable for keeping primates. The Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals has needed to rescue monkeys whose welfare has been compromised by owners in Wales and has directly encountered how private primate ownership can lead to suffering. The Welsh Government has a very good record on animal welfare, which I hope will continue. Following on from Vikki Howells earlier, will the Minister consider taking action to outlaw the private ownership of primates and save countless monkeys from a life of misery in inappropriate settings?

Thank you. As I said in my original answer to you, what the Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill was doing was to better regulate and license. It wasn't looking at a complete ban; it was just looking at the regulations. I hope that would have been a significant step to where we would be, following the Bill.

I mentioned to Vikki Howells that I'd asked officials to work with lawyers to have a look to see what we can do in relation to that, and I will certainly be very interested, if it's correct what officials have been told, that DEFRA are looking to do this through a statutory instrument, and I'd be very happy to work with them to do that, because I think they would go out to consultation, and we could look then to legislation. And maybe that would be the opportunity also to see if we could strengthen it to look at a ban. I honestly don't know the answer to that, but I think it is something that we could look at.

I've also requested data under the Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976 from our local authorities to see exactly what the extent of private ownership is here in Wales, because I think it would be good to see how significant, or not, the problem is.

The Welsh Government is committed to supporting the food and drink industry in Wales in respect of environmental and economic sustainability, and to ensure the industry continues to deliver to address the needs of the people of Wales.

Thank you, Minister, for that answer. As you're aware, sustainable food production will be fundamental in our quest for food security here in Wales. Sadly, I believe the benefits for future generations of anchoring food security in legislation were not recognised recently. However, the fact remains that there is huge demand for Government to take action that spans wider than the agricultural Bill or the sustainable farming scheme or any community food strategy, and I welcome the commitments you've made to date.

Last month, the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee made several recommendations to the Government. One was the publication of a document setting out all of the Government's food policies across departments, showing how these align against the Government's key overarching objectives in relation to food. Minister, can the Senedd expect such a document to be published and, if so, when would you envisage it being available for scrutiny?

Thank you. Yes, the Senedd can expect it. I'm going to say 'autumn this year'. I'll say 'autumn this year', but, you know, it might extend into the winter. But, just to let you know, there's a significant amount of work already going on across Government. And you will have heard me say in response to the debate on your food Bill—I think it was in answer to Jenny Rathbone—that the First Minister was going to convene all Ministers, along with our officials, to look at the significant food policy work that was going on across Government to try and link it up. The First Minister chaired that meeting yesterday, and it was fascinating. Even I learned things that were going on within food. Food sits within my portfolio, but to hear of the significant work going on right across Government, from nearly every Minister, in relation to food policy—. So, what I've asked officials to do now is to bring all that work together in a single document. Some of it will absolutely fit into the work of the community food strategy, which, as you know, we're working on with Plaid Cymru as part of the co-operation agreement to bring forward that community food strategy. Others won't fit into the community food strategy, but I think it will be important to bring all that work together in the document that you've just referred to. So, the first stage of the work will be to bring the work together. I've asked for that be done by the end of this term, so in just over four weeks' time. That can be then looked at over the summer, looking forward then to bringing forward the document that you've just questioned me about. So, as I say, I hope it will be the autumn, but if I say before Christmas, I think I'll cover myself.

I've consulted on proposals and published a summary of responses last month. Officials are now developing regulations to deliver on our commitment to require CCTV in all slaughterhouses. I plan to introduce these by spring 2024.

It's very good to hear that, Minister. I'm sure you would agree that animals slaughtered in Wales should be the subject of the highest possible standards and regulations. And would you agree with me that the consultation showed quite clearly the strength of public opinion in favour of the highest possible standards? As a Member of this Senedd, animal welfare is one of the most prominent aspects of the postbag that I receive, and I'm sure that's reflected across the Chamber. So, with that background, Minister, I'm very pleased to hear that you'll be pressing ahead with these new standards, and I hope you can do so effectively from the first day of implementation.

Yes, thank you. I absolutely agree with you. Whenever there is any issue or consultation in relation to animal welfare, my postbag certainly, as an MS, always increases; I definitely think people prefer animals to people, and it's always a matter of great importance, I think, to our constituents. And, of course, animal welfare is absolutely a priority for me as Minister and for the Welsh Government, and one of the reasons I brought the five-year animal welfare plan in when we first came back after the election two years ago was to show the scope of work that we intend to do in the animal welfare space.

There were over 16,000 responses to the consultation, and overwhelmingly they were in support of having CCTV in our slaughterhouses, and, I have to say, all the large slaughterhouses here in Wales do already have CCTV. And, I should say, CCTV cannot replace direct oversight by a slaughterhouse manager, or even the official vets that have to be there. So, I think we should be reassured that there are very, very high standards in our slaughterhouses across Wales.

Janet Finch-Saunders is not in the Chamber to ask question 11, so question 12, Tom Giffard.

I have regular discussions with all of my Cabinet colleagues on a range of topics, including tourism in rural communities. Our strategy, 'Welcome to Wales: Priorities for the Visitor Economy 2020-2025', sets our vision and ambition for the sector across Wales.

Thank you, Minister, for your answer, and for getting to question 12—I didn't think I'd be called today. [Laughter.]

You have Janet Finch-Saunders to thank for that. [Laughter.]

I regularly have Janet Finch-Saunders to thank, Llywydd. [Laughter.]

Can I raise with you the issue of the 182-day rule that's been brought in by the Welsh Government? Obviously, the predominant form, if you like, of visitor accommodation in rural communities will be the self-catering holiday let properties, so we know that any potential tax changes would disproportionately have an impact on those rural communities. So, I'm just wondering, from your perspective, as the rural communities' voice, if you like, around the Cabinet table, whether there's been a specific rural impact assessment done on the impact that these changes could have not only on the self-catering holiday let properties themselves, but the wider infrastructure—that local pub, the local shop and so on—that visitors can often keep viable. So, can you confirm whether or not that work has been done, please, and what specific representations have you made about this policy on behalf of rural communities?

Well, obviously, when any policy is discussed around the Cabinet table, every Minister has a view and brings forward significant points on policy to test it. The economic impact will have been done. I don't know if it will have specifically looked at rural communities, but I will certainly ask that question and write to the Member.FootnoteLink

I thank the Minister.

The next item is the topical questions. There are two topical questions today, and both will be answered by the Minister for Economy, and the first of those is to be asked by Jayne Bryant. 

Thank you. It is sad news that Tuffnells parcels has entered into administration. This took place yesterday, and I know this will be devastating for management and staff. Our focus now will be on supporting those affected workers here in Wales.

Thank you for that answer, Minister. As you mentioned, one of those depots is situated in Rogerstone, in my constituency of Newport West, and it has been confirmed that all of the 75 workers there have been made redundant. This is devastating news to all those workers and their families, who are in this situation due to no fault of their own. In what is already an extremely difficult year for many, the suddenness of this announcement seems particularly cruel.

The workers are obviously the priority, and they have been let down, but there are also other businesses and subcontractors who will be affected by this, with one local business having several outstanding invoices. Minister, I know the Welsh Government and your officials always act swiftly in these situations, but can you assure me that support will be mobilised for the workforce so that they're given the best advice in terms of possible connections to other employers and opportunities for training? I've already been contacted by a number of local businesses offering their support and help. And do you have any advice to give the other local businesses affected about how they can contact the administrators for the services that they are owed?

Thank you for the question. There's a number of really important practical points there, and I recognise that one of the Tuffnells depots is indeed in her constituency in Rogerstone. The difficulty we have in the Welsh Government is that there was no contact from the company to us, at any point, to indicate it was in distress, so we found out when the announcement was actually made that administrators were appointed yesterday. It's part of a much larger group, with over 2,000 people directly employed by Tuffnells, so it'll be a shock to workers as well. Now, the challenge is about what they are able to do and how they get those forms of support. The administrators have provided their details on the Tuffnells website—they've got contact details. If you're an individual, people can contact the Welsh Government. If people contact through your office, we can take forward that advice. But we're looking to work with the administrators to make sure that there's clear advice and understanding of the support that the Welsh Government can provide, for example, through our ReAct Plus programme or our Communities for Work Plus programme and, potentially, links through Careers Wales, to help people find alternative work. We also have a constructive relationship with the Department for Work and Pensions as well and about the sort of support they may be able to provide.

For any businesses that are affected, they should definitely contact Business Wales, to understand what we can do to try to direct them in terms of their rights. But they also should have direct contact with the administrators and about where they are in the line of credit and what they can do, if they do have outstanding invoices that have not been paid.

Part of the challenge of dealing with the workforce is that we don't believe, we don't understand there to be a recognised union on either the site in the Member's constituency or across the wider business. That then means that workers are needing to be organised after the event. I think it makes it even more important that there's direct contact with both the administrators' office and, indeed, as I say, through co-ordinating local officials. So, I'd be very happy to meet the Member to have a practical conversation with her and/or her UK parliamentary colleague to understand the sort of calls for advice that you're getting from the 70-odd people who are permanently employed, or were permanently employed on the site, and to make sure that they do have easy access to support that's available from Welsh Government or, indeed, as I say, the DWP.

I'd like to thank Jayne for asking this question; I'd echo the comments that have been made about the loss of these jobs. It's another bitter blow for the region I represent, which comes on the back of hundreds of job losses at Tillery Valley Foods Ltd in Cwmtillery and Avara Foods in Abergavenny.

Minister, you've expressed real concern about the latest rise in unemployment for Wales because, at 4.8 per cent, it's a full percentage point higher than the UK average. I note and I welcome the points you've made about the package of support that's being made available to those made redundant by Tuffnells. Could you talk us through, please, whether you think the site could be repurposed for alternative employment? And could you please give the Senedd an idea of what the Welsh Government is doing to address these really concerning figures about the national increase in unemployment? Thank you.

Well, with respect, I won't answer the last part of that, because I there's a further topical question from one of your colleagues on the figures that came out yesterday.

When it comes to the potential to support and challenge that is available here, part of the good news is that, for workers with skills and in logistics and related areas, there is still a need for people in that sector. So, I'm cautiously optimistic that we'll be able to provide people with alternative opportunities for work. When it comes to the site, I don't physically have knowledge of the site itself, but on the more general point around employment sites, all of our local authorities and, indeed, the Welsh Government, are looking at sites for employment. It's probably the better side of the equation to have about demand for employment sites, so I'm very keen that this site continues to be an employment site. We have regular enquiries from businesses that are looking to expand that are already here in Wales, as well as potential investors into Wales, and ones who are having significant employment sites available is actually something that we are looking to do to expand and to maintain those sites.

The Member mentioned Tillery Valley Foods—I met again with the task force, attended by the constituency Member for Blaenau Gwent, Alun Davies, this morning, and again, we're clear that we want that significant site for employment to remain an employment site, and not just to help the current workforce who are looking to find alternative work. There's still a significant number of people who are looking for alternative work, following the demise of Tillery Valley Foods, as well as making sure that there are future employment opportunities on that site. And it's a real point of intent that we've worked very constructively with the local authority, with constituency Members and more than one party on. And in the same way, we're also looking at Avara Foods in Monmouthshire, and, at the same, as I say, there is a practical and constructive relationship with the Department for Work and Pensions to find alternative work for the directly affected workforce.  

I thank the Minister for the response to the first question. Luke Fletcher to ask the second question. 

Thank you for the question. Labour market data should be interpreted in the round and draw on a range of sources, including those looking at longer term trends. The labour force survey results that the Office for National Statistics published are in themselves relatively volatile, as the sample size is small for Wales. Our statisticians advise that a single month's set of results should not be relied on as a definitive representation of labour market conditions in Wales, albeit we are concerned about a number of areas in the economy in Wales, and it remains part of the discussions we have both internally with business, trade union stakeholders, and, indeed, with the UK Government. 

Thank you for that response, Minister. 

Regardless of whether this is a blip or a trend, surely the Government would be preparing for the worst outcome, rather than potentially sitting on its hands and carrying on as if it's business as usual. Last month when we raised concerns regarding recent increases in the rate of unemployment and economic inactivity, both you and the First Minister dismissed the figures as a snapshot. Since then, of course, we've had another release of data from the ONS. We now have the lowest rate of employment across the whole of the UK, and the joint highest rate of unemployment, higher than anywhere else in the UK since last year. We've seen further rises in the rate of economic inactivity, which have also increased to a greater extent in Wales over the past year than anywhere else in the UK.

And, as I mentioned last month, this is against the long-term underperformance of the Welsh economy on productivity, which has shown no discernible improvements since 1998. On practically every metric for employment and economic performance, the picture in Wales is one of stagnation and managed decline. Considering these latest figures, considering the number of closures of workplaces we're hearing about—we had a question on the closure of Tuffnells just five minutes ago—and considering the concerns within multiple sectors of the economy, does the Minister agree that we need a far franker assessment of the state of the Welsh economy than the one he provided last month? 

No, I think that is not a fair reflection on the action of the Government or on the series of statements that I've made about the current position of the economy and the prospects for the future. We are certainly not sitting on our hands and acting complacently. The honest difficulty that we have is that labour force survey figures are relatively volatile, and ONS are looking to revise the labour force survey during the rest of this year to provide more certainty. The more certain picture we have is less timely—it's the annual population survey, and that shows quite a different picture. It still continues to show Welsh unemployment levels below the UK level, it continues to show that there has been, over the period of devolution—and I completely reject his points around productivity—we have seen real improvements in productivity, as well as in employment. And until the post-pandemic period, we'd also seen improvements in economic inactivity rates as well. 

And it's worth pointing out that the pay-as-you-earn figures, which cover employees not self-employment, actually show an improvement over the last year, and they show an improvement over the last month of figures available. So, that evidence suggests that employment is growing in Wales, and that's not subject to a small survey sample, and so it's a confounding picture. It is possible that something entirely different is happening in the self-employed sector of the economy, and I think it's honest to say that we do still have an ongoing challenge with economic inactivity. That's taking place also in large parts of the rest of the UK. The headline figures I think do provide a challenge for economic inactivity in itself, because it still covers full-time students. And obviously, we expect most of those full-time students to go on to secure employment. 

I think the wider point is—. And I just want to remind the Member and others in the Chamber that when I've spoken about the future of the economy, I've been really clear about some of the risks that we are facing, about some of the unevenness in the economy as well. Whilst the UK may avoid a recession, there'll be some sectors where there are significant unemployment events through this year, and other areas where there is real growth and employment. And we still face a challenge in having the available labour and the match-up of the jobs that are available. Some of that really is about the work that we're already trying to do to help people back into the world of work when they are generally economically inactive, and that's work that, actually, we could do with a constructive approach together with the UK Government.

So, there are risks and challenges, yes, and I think I've been very frank about those. I think we could see another blip in the wrong direction when it comes to the withdrawal of what's left of the energy support scheme for businesses, but there will continue to be opportunities, some of which I have seen for myself today in meeting the Port of Milford Haven to look at current opportunities and near-side opportunities to significantly increase growth in that part of Wales, and there are others too, as well. I look forward to being frank and honest about where we are, but I certainly won't apologise for being upbeat about those sectors of our economy where there is real potential for growth that should benefit all of us.

Minister, regardless of what you might say, these latest figures are very worrying. As the economic picture has improved elsewhere across the UK, the Welsh Government must address why there is a pattern of decline here in Wales, and we must better understand the Government's plans to address and improve this situation. Now, earlier this year, the National Institute of Economic and Social Research argued that since devolution Welsh economic policies, 

'have lacked coherence and consistency, and ambitions have not been matched by effective implementation.'

Let me remind you, Minister, that that report was in fact co-authored by a former Welsh Labour Government Minister. Therefore, can you tell us exactly how the Welsh Government will prioritise job creation in this Senedd term to ensure that this decline is now addressed? Can you also tell us what new measures will be introduced to support and nurture more entrepreneurship here in Wales? Finally, can you also confirm that you will urgently review the Government's employability and skills action plan in light of this pattern of decline, given that your current plan seems not to be working?

Well, again, I understand the point that the Member makes given that he's a Conservative Member and the avoidance of some of the facts. When you look at the period of devolution, productivity has increased in Wales over the period of devolution. We started with a significant period of unemployment in Wales being higher than the UK average. The long-term trend has been lower; that's why these figures are particularly concerning and the confounder of, as I say, the PAYE data, which shows that the number of people in paid, direct employment has increased in Wales over the last year, and increased in Wales over the last quarter and the last month. Those are facts, not opinions.

When it comes to job creation, we've regularly talked about what we're doing to support entrepreneurship through a range of our programmes. We also have the challenges over investing in skills for the future, as well, and, again, that's been part of today's conversation with businesses. In all of these areas, there is a Welsh Government plan and approach that businesses themselves welcome. Our challenge is whether we're able to meet the scale of that challenge, and whether, actually, we have a UK Government that works alongside us or not. There are times when the UK Government is relatively constructive, and free ports is just one example. There are others where they are not so constructive: the conversations we are still not having properly around the future of the steel sector, the deliberate and wasteful competition on intervening in skills policy. These are areas where we could always have a better ask and a better deal for the people of Wales, if only Conservative Ministers were prepared to act in a constructive way and to invest in the future of our economy, as, indeed, we will continue to do for and on behalf of the people of Wales.

I have to say I've rarely heard such nonsense from Conservatives in this Chamber, but Paul Davies has clearly not been watching or listening in the last 12 months where we've had a masterclass in economic incompetence and mismanagement from Elizabeth Truss, from Boris Johnson and now from the current Prime Minister. The only thing they have in common is that they don't give a damn about this place and they don't give a damn about the people who pay their wages.

Minister, what we have seen over the last few years has been slow economic growth, slow GDP growth across the United Kingdom—that's been slower than all of our major competitors. And in the last two years, GDP growth has almost come to an end. Since a hard Brexit was imposed on this country, we have seen GDP growth come to an end for the first time in decades, as a consequence of decisions taken in London. Do you agree with me, Minister, that the only way that Wales will benefit from the investments that you are making is if we return to the single market, we return to the customs union and we have a UK Government that believes in redistribution of wealth across the United Kingdom, and has the eradication of inequality as a core objective of economic policy.

I thank the Member for his question, but also for his engagement this morning around the future of members of his community in Abertillery and the work we’re doing, both with Avara, where lots of the workforce are indeed from Blaenau Gwent, as well as Tillery Valley Foods.

When businesses describe the challenges that they have, the new trading conditions of Brexit are one of the issues they raise regularly, together with energy prices, which are still a significant problem, which is why I’m so concerned about the withdrawal of the last vestiges of support from the energy support the UK Government has provided. Inflation remains a continued concern, as indeed does the availability of a workforce and investment in skills. On each of those areas, there is much scope for improvement.

We, here in the Welsh Government, are doing all that we can to support people to trade with the current realities post Brexit, and to actually try and support those businesses with the levers we have available to us. I absolutely agree that improved trading conditions with our closest trading block, our European partners, who will always be our physical neighbours, would be a significant positive for the UK economy and the economy here in Wales. Trade with the EU is a bigger chunk of our economy than other parts of the UK, and I do look forward to a more grown-up conversation around our relationship with the European Union if there is a change in Government. That also, I think, would make a big difference when it comes to investing in the future of our economy, when it comes to recognising regional inequalities, and looking to do something deliberately with the power of the UK Government to work with us to address those issues here in Wales. It’s part of the reason I’m continuing to engage with the current UK Government, as well as those who may appear in a future UK Government, to make sure that the needs of Wales are recognised when future investments do come into Wales, to transform the lives of the communities that we are privileged to represent here in the Welsh Parliament.

We have a point of order now from Darren Millar.

Diolch, Llywydd. I’d like to raise a point of order in relation to a comment made by the Minister for Health and Social Services last week in the debate in which my party called for the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board to publish the Ernst & Young report, which there’s been a lot of speculation about and a lot of public interest in in north Wales. In the debate on that report, the Minister said, and I quote:

'The audit committee of the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, on advice from the Welsh Government, commissioned Ernst & Young to undertake a forensic review of accounting management after Audit Wales qualified the health board's accounts for 2021-22 and identified internal control failures.'

That assertion has been disputed by the former chair of the health board, who said the statement was 'misleading and inaccurate'. He also said that it was certainly not commissioned—the report—on the advice of the Welsh Government, and, in addition to that, the former vice-chair of the audit committee of the health board, the former independent member Richard Micklewright, said that

'the Welsh government was not involved in the decision in any way nor was its input sought.'

Clearly, there’s a dispute about whether that statement is accurate or not. If it is not accurate, the statement which the Minister made, then she may have inadvertently misled this Senedd. So, I would be very grateful—given the public interest in this matter, it’s essential that we get to the truth—I’d be very grateful if the Minister could address these concerns as soon as possible.

I thank you for giving me warning of that point of order, so, further to that point of order, the Minister for health, Eluned Morgan.

Thanks very much. I’d like to thank Darren Millar for the opportunity to set out the situation. The director general of the NHS in Wales, Judith Paget, spoke directly to the then chief executive of Betsi, Jo Whitehead, following the Audit Wales report that found allegations of financial misstatements, and recommended that the health board should undertake a full investigation to understand how the misstatements had occurred. The Welsh Government did not commission the report, and I’ve never suggested that the Welsh Government commissioned the report, but it is probably fair to say that there was not a direct conversation, to my knowledge, between the Welsh Government and the audit committee of the Betsi board, but there was a conversation, as I have noted, which took place between the CEO of the NHS in Wales and the CEO of Betsi, and I’m happy to correct the record on that score.

The audit committee of Betsi then commissioned the Ernst & Young report. The former board of Betsi must take full responsibility for that, and for all the terms and conditions associated with the report.

Thank you to both Darren Millar for the point of order and to the Minister for the clarification.

We'll move on, therefore, to the 90-second statements, and the first statement from Jack Sargeant.

Diolch, Llywydd. Llywydd, I recently met with James Hunt of Nanny Biscuit in my constituency, who are the organisers of the Grand Week in Wales, and the Grand Week in Wales aims to celebrate the rich cultural history of our country whilst also supporting a variety of local and national charities. The name, the Grand Week in Wales, is given in recognition of Wales's 1,000-mile circumference, Llywydd, and the organisers are asking people to join in and raise money by taking part in one of their creative 1,000-themed challenges, whether this be doing 1,000 good deeds, 1,000 Welsh kindness acts, or indeed making 1,000 Welsh cakes. The Grand Week in Wales will bring people together right across our nation, whilst raising money for some amazing charities and social enterprises. It launches next week, Llywydd, on 19 June, and I want to wish everyone taking part across Cymru the very best of luck, and I urge you all as Members to find out more and consider taking part in one of those 1,000-themed challenges.

This week we mark the death of Princess Gwenllian. She was born in 1282, a very important year in the history of Wales. When she was only a few months old, her father, Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, the last Prince of Wales, was killed by the army of Edward I of England. Her mother, Eleanor de Montfort, had died soon after Gwenllian was born. She was captured as a young baby from her home in Arfon, and she spent the rest of her life in a nunnery in Sempringham in England, until her death at the age of 54.

Did she know who she was? We don't really know. She was exiled far from her nation and her family so she wouldn't inspire revolt by the Welsh. Thanks to the Princess Gwenllian Society for keeping her name alive. Thanks to my parents for giving me her name. In 2009, Carnedd Uchaf in Eryri was renamed 'Carnedd Gwenllian'. The town of Bethesda is nearby, and last weekend a very special festival was held in the Ogwen valley to remember Princess Gwenllian, organised by Partneriaeth Ogwen.

Roger Griffin, the poet, has summarised this very sad story, but with a note of hope at the end:

'You were our last, but not our lost princess. / Your footprints on our rocky path remain. / Survival is our nation's special skill, / And time has merely honed our stubborn pride.'

This week is Men's Health Week, and it's an international event that takes place every year in June. The goal of Men's Health Week is to encourage men to take proactive steps to improving their physical and mental well-being. During Men's Health Week, various organisations, health professionals and community groups organise events, workshops and health screenings—an educational programme specifically targeted towards men. These activities aim to provide information and resources on topics such as prevention, exercise, nutrition, mental health, and the important of getting regular check-ups and screenings. Men's Health Week serves as a reminder for men to prioritise their health and well-being, to engage in a healthy lifestyle, and to seek timely medical advice when needed. It also encourages an open discussion about men's health issues, which may often be overlooked or stigmatised. By promoting awareness, Men's Health Week aims to improve the overall health outcomes for men and encourage them to lead a healthier and happier life. Diolch.

Thank you very much, everyone.

Item 5 this afternoon is a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21, the Warm This Winter campaign. I call on Hefin David to move the motion.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. As I look up through the funnel at the sky, I can see the sky is blue, and this is possibly one of the warmest days, if not the warmest day, of the year. You might think it's an unusual time to start thinking about winter, but, actually, this is absolutely the right time to start thinking about winter and how we protect our most vulnerable and lowest income households as we approach, with climate change, what could be a cold and could be a wet winter.

Therefore, I'm very pleased to be able to bring this debate forward today, and I want to say a 'thank you', of course, to co-submitters Jack Sargeant and Jane Dodds, who will have things to say in this debate, and also everyone else who has signed up to it. But also I think I should mention someone much missed from this Chamber, who is Bethan Sayed. I'm sure she's missed by Plaid Cymru—she's certainly missed by us. [Interruption.] Yes, you've got to nod. You've got to nod. Bethan has demonstrated the maxim that Tony Benn first came up with that, by leaving Parliament, you have more time for politics. And that's certainly the case with her. She's helped us develop this motion. She's helped us identify some of the key areas of campaigning through her work with Climate Cymru and, across the UK, the Warm This Winter campaign, which is an excellent campaign, which is designed to effect change in the UK, but also, through Climate Cymru, here in Wales.

And what I'm going to do today is identify some of the things we'd like to see Welsh Government doing, some of the things they've done well so far and maybe have started to discontinue and we'd like to see a bit more next year, and also some of the things the UK Government is doing. But Conservatives can rest easy—I'm not going to go on the attack; I'm not going to do an Alun Davies and upset you. My plan is certainly to try and find my—[Interruption.] Shh. My plan is certainly to try and find some ways of finding cross-party agreement on this and, hopefully, have full support across this Chamber for the motion. I understand Welsh Government will be supporting the motion. I've got something to say about that in a minute.

So, we are living through a climate crisis, a cost-of-living crisis and an environmental crisis. All of these things together are combining towards hurting those people who are most vulnerable in our communities. But, of course, they are combined, they are connected, these issues, and I think there is certainly a way, through some of the recommendations we'll have today, of addressing these issues.

So, the Warm This Winter campaign across the UK calls for energy support to help people struggling with energy bills, a coherent plan to end gas and oil dependency and the upscaling of renewable projects. Here in Wales, Climate Cymru have adapted the Warm This Winter campaign to ask the Welsh Government to support vulnerable people in Wales with home-efficiency grants and investment in community renewables. What I wanted to do was just look at what the Welsh Government have done so far first of all, and also raise some concerns about that, for the future, and then look at what we want to see.

So, so far, we've seen a £150 cost-of-living payment from the Welsh Government. Caerphilly council distributed that in my constituency, and they also added to it. We've seen a £200 Welsh fuel support scheme. We've seen additional funding to the discretionary assistance fund, a £4 million national fuel voucher scheme and a £1 million warm banks fund. These were all helpful things last winter that made a difference for the people in our communities. We would like to see a winter 2023 winter fuel campaign similar to the one that was run in 2022. So far, we haven't heard from Welsh Government as to whether this will happen. With the Minister—. I think the Minister's on the screen. I'd like to say it would be helpful to know whether Welsh Government intend to run either a similar campaign or something very similar to it.

What next from Welsh Government? Well, we'd like to credit the Welsh Government for the Nest scheme. I think it has made a difference in guiding the most vulnerable people to the activities that they can undertake and places they can go to gain support. But we would like the Welsh Government to adjust that scheme for people on the lowest incomes in order to help them insulate their homes. There is a route to that. I think you need some support from the UK Government too to do it, but there is certainly the opportunity to extend that scheme.

We want the Welsh Government to support the living wage campaign and to think about, particularly, that promise we made for those workers in social care, that their wages—. The lower they go, the harder that service is to deliver. And we'd like to think about the ability to go beyond the living wage, even, for social care workers. We'd like to give all unpaid carers cost-of-living financial support, not just those in receipt of carers allowance—my little daughter is five years old, and she's a carer for her older sister; there are many forms of caring that go on in the communities, and I think we need to think about that—and also bring together the additional support that exists, the free school meals, council tax reduction schemes and other schemes the Welsh Government deliver, under one umbrella, one cohesive system, so that it's easy for people to understand and to access. And of course we would like to see, further down the line, a more cohesive benefits system, but this is a step towards that that the Welsh Government can introduce.

And I know what Jack Sargeant is going to talk about in his speech—it's going to be prepayment meters. Is that right, Jack? I think it is. Give me a nod if it is; it is. And I think prepayment meters, and the forced introduction of prepayment meters in this country, is an evil, and I think Jack Sargeant is going to tell us why that's the case, and he's going to tell us later what can be done about it.

We also want the Welsh Government to lobby the UK Government to make up for the shortfall that low and vulnerable households will have as a result of inflation and the increasing difficulties that the economy is having. And again, I'm not going to get into a party political battering of the Conservatives. What I'd say to the Conservatives is: join the Welsh Government in calling for the UK Government to fill the gaps in the social security system that is being created by this out-of-control inflation that we are seeing at this point in time. Work together, get the UK Government to fill in those gaps; it can happen, and it can be done.

We'd also—and this is, of course, Labour Party policy, but I would imagine Plaid Cymru would support it as well—want to impose a genuine windfall tax on energy companies, and also scrap incentives to scale up the extraction of fossil fuels. I think that is something that we would support; at least two thirds of this Chamber, I think, would support that.

What can the UK Government do to help the Welsh Government deliver secure homes and insulated homes? Well, the devolved budget can be increased to enable delivery of a scaled up home insulation programme. And the fact is that, as you deliver home insulation in this country, it delivers savings in the medium term back to the Treasury. This is an invest-to-save activity that the UK Government could be engaging in, but isn't, and we feel that that could happen. We could see a rapid scale-up also of low-cost renewables.

And finally, now, this is a live one, the next one: Warm Homes. I've been in touch with Welsh Government special advisers, and I'm told we're expecting a Warm Homes statement from the Welsh Government today. So, I'd say to the Minister: perhaps she could make that statement as part of her response to this debate—it would be really helpful. I've asked Alex in my office to send me a message should the Warm Homes statement be released. Is it out?

No. I'm waiting for it.

We're waiting for it. Sioned's waiting for it as well. So, we're waiting with bated breath, Minister, for the Warm Homes statement. If you've got it, let us have it—let's do it now. What would we like to see in that statement? We'd like to see an ambitious Warm Homes programme for Wales, at scale and pace. This should target the most impacted households first, prioritise improving the fabric of the house with energy-efficient measures, and combine a street-by-street approach and on-demand support for vulnerable households wherever they are. That is what we're asking for in the Warm Homes scheme; we really are looking forward to that statement and what is coming next.

And I just wanted to say something about Arbed as well, which is now of course discontinued. Caerphilly council managed the investment in Lansbury Park in my constituency, which saw a transformation of many homes on the estate. But not every home was covered; some felt the scheme didn't go far enough for some of the homes on the estate. And I'd like to ask the Welsh Government what lessons can be learned from the delivery of that scheme, because we knew that there were opportunities to link some of the Arbed work into existing homes, and we were told that it wasn't cost-effective to do so as the programme then existed. So, if Warm Homes is coming forward, can that perhaps fill some of the gaps that Arbed didn't?

As with all these debates, individual Member's debates, this is for the Chamber—this is for people in this Chamber, Members in this Chamber, to tell us what's happening in their communities and what they would like to see in terms of policy. I'm really looking forward to hearing those responses. I really hope that Conservatives will take part in the debate—that would be really helpful to us all. I know Plaid Cymru are intending to take part, and Labour, and Liberal Democrats. And I'd like to hear collectively what more we can do, collectively what more we can do, to make this winter warmer for those people who are most vulnerable and are on the lowest incomes in our society. So, right now, it's over to you.

I have many speakers, and well over the limit. I'll try and call everyone, but you can help me by keeping to your time, please. Jane Dodds.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. There's throwing down the gauntlet there, so I will do my best to keep within my time.

Every winter, people die in Wales due to cold homes. Rural communities, such as my own region of Mid and West Wales, suffer from fuel and energy poverty far above the national average. The problems of last year, as we've heard, have not gone away, and I would like to thank Hefin for bringing this forward at this point. It is critical that we plan for winter from now on. We cannot leave people waiting and wanting, and wanting to know what's happening around having warm homes. Rising costs this winter may mean that many of all of our residents are forced to make the difficult decision between heating and eating.

Wales has the oldest housing stock in the United Kingdom, and the lowest proportion of dwellings in the country with an energy performance certificate rating of C and above. Welsh housing is some of the least energy efficient in Europe. According to a committee report last year, the Warm Homes programme failed to match Wales's level of need, and undermined its own goals due to its poor design and delivery. As I've previously highlighted in the Siambr, at the current rate, the Nest programme would take 134 years to insulate every fuel-poor home. 

The Warm This Winter campaign is calling for emergency support for vulnerable households, whether that be by automatically referring the needy to energy-efficient schemes, or through expanding financial support to cover those who have fallen through the cracks. We cannot wait. This Government must act now.

Beyond immediate relief, we in Wales need solutions at scale and at pace, to end fuel poverty and create a more energy-secure renewable future. The Welsh Government must do more to support community renewable projects, end our reliance upon expensive fossil fuels, and help upskill our workforce to a green transition. That's why I've been calling, and others have been as well, to make sure that we have a 'bonanza tax', as I call it, on energy executive bonuses, or by campaigning for a transition to a universal basic income. We must stop Aberpergwm coal mine right now, and ensure that there is action to close Ffos-y-fran, as is supposed to be happening on 28 July.

By helping our most impacted houses today, and by investing in a renewable tomorrow, Wales can help make fuel poverty a thing of the past. On top of what we've heard already from Hefin, and the idea of this umbrella approach to helping people understand what's available, I just want to talk very quickly about debt bonfires. Debt bonfires was a recommendation in the Equality and Social Justice Committee's report, and it makes it clear that this is one tool that can help those households that are suffering under burdensome debts, but will also take away the stress and the mental health things that go with it as well. 

I look forward to the debate and the discussion, and I thank, once again, Hefin, for bringing this forward. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd.

I'm very pleased to be able to co-submit this motion of Hefin David's today, alongside Jane Dodds as well. It was a pleasure to welcome Climate Cymru and the Warm This Winter campaign to the Senedd a few weeks ago, for Members to be able to sign up and pledge to their campaign. And if Members haven't done so yet, then I urge them to consider doing just that. And Hefin David is absolutely right. The sun is beating down outside today; it's sweltering out there. But last winter, we should not forget how long and how miserable and how difficult it was for so many. And so many of those are already worried about how they will manage next winter. And I completely support the motion in front of us today, and the calls for emergency support for our most vulnerable.

Deputy Presiding Officer, Hefin David hasn't read my mind too cleverly; I am going to talk about prepayment meters, but I'm not going to ask him for the lottery numbers. It should be no surprise that I'm going to talk about the issues of vulnerable individuals and families, and how they were being treated last winter by energy suppliers. The prepayment meter scandal that developed last year demonstrated the sheer failings of the UK Government, Ofgem and the suppliers—these suppliers who are meant to protect vulnerable consumers and ensure that their energy is not disconnected. But that's not what we saw. We saw thousands of court warrants passed at once for forced installation, without checks being done on whether the individual was vulnerable or not and how that would impact them. We saw the sickening footage, didn't we, in The Times, of agents contracted by British Gas forcing prepayment meters onto extremely vulnerable customers. And I'm aware of other examples, from a survey my office has done, where people who need constant electricity for their medical devices for them to survive being forcibly switched with the prospect of having their energy cut off. 

The whole experience reinforced to me just how broken our energy market is and how it is completely organised to protect the interest of the suppliers, their shareholders and their executives. Deputy Presiding Officer, as Chair, I recently had the chance to grill some of these top executives from the most common energy suppliers in the UK, when they came to give evidence to the Petitions Committee. And I must say that I was (a) frustrated, (b) annoyed at times with their responses, and I've even found myself, with the agreement of the committee—and I see some members of the committee here in front of me—as Chair, writing to one executive to suggest to him that it was not appropriate for him to come to a committee of the Welsh Parliament and suggest that if people didn't have prepayment meters they would stop paying their energy bills and they would go on holiday. I'm waiting for the response from the executive. I would be grateful for his clarification and evidence on that matter, because—.  

Will you take an intervention?

Of course. 

Would you be willing to tell us who that was, what company that was? Or, I understand if you wouldn't like to. 

I'm very happy to name the individual. The individual was Andrew Ward, from Scottish Power. It's on the public record; it's there for those to see on Senedd.tv, if they need to. My letter will be public as well, and so will his response to the committee. Because it's the view of people like that, and the sort of view of individuals like that, who are really struggling to support the most vulnerable people, isn't it? And that's the problem that we're here to discuss, about supporting the most vulnerable, living and surviving in an energy crisis that has no place in society at all, and what Hefin David rightly said towards the end of his contribution, that we have a collective responsibility to do something about.

I am grateful to the Minister for her leadership on this very matter. I'd be grateful if she, once again, could reaffirm the Welsh Government's position on banning the forced installation of prepayment meters.

This debate, Dirprwy Lywydd—and I see time is winding up slowly—this debate is part of the solution needed to protect the residents of Cymru next winter. I do, again, want to thank Hefin David and Members who have supported this motion. I hope the whole Senedd can come together in agreement with this motion. It is a very important one. I also want to thank Bethan Sayed and Climate Cymru for everything they've done to support vulnerable residents. And, as I said at the start, if Members haven't signed the pledge, then they should do. Diolch.

I'd like to thank Hefin for bringing forward this Member's debate and also Bethan Sayed for all her work—of course, our former colleague, here on the Plaid Cymru benches. And I'm glad to be one of the motion's supporters, and Plaid Cymru wholeheartedly supports the motion, as it encompasses the actions, as has been said, that are needed now during the warmth of summer to help households in Wales during what will be an upcoming cold and difficult winter. Because although our energy bills may be slightly less high at the moment, as the sun dries our clothes and warms our houses, they're still not normal. This really needs to be underlined: 80 per cent higher than at the start of the energy crisis, and still completely unaffordable for far too many families.

From July, when the Ofgem price cap comes into effect, the typical annual energy bill will be £2,074. That means there will be 6.6 million households in fuel poverty across the UK. That's up from 4.5 million in October 2021. And we know, from many reports that have been published so far this year, that there is a great concern that next winter will be difficult—even, in some cases, more difficult than the last. As the motion states, we're facing multiple crises, and, as with so many crises, it's the poorest in our communities and those that have intersecting inequalities that feel the impact the most. 

Barnardo's Cymru stated in their recent report that the most common concern for households in Wales is meeting heating and food costs due to rising prices. Targeted support must be provided to get these families through this deeply difficult winter ahead. Figures from Citizens Advice Cymru show us people are already struggling with debt, and energy debt advice is the most common issue they're dealing with. We've heard report after report quoted in debates in this Chamber about that need for better targeting, co-ordination and delivery of the support that is available.

The Senedd supported my call for a Bill to ensure that every £1 of Welsh support goes to the right pocket at the right time, as easily and quickly as possible. Support must be effective, and its delivery streamlined, and yet we still don't have that Welsh benefits system in place that Plaid Cymru has long advocated for, with a statutory element to local authority delivery of these support payments. This could ensure the support schemes that must be instituted next winter are made even more efficient, getting that support to the people who need it. We need to learn the lessons of last winter to know how much support is needed and where. So, what evaluation has been done, Minister, of, for example, the Welsh fuel support programme? What new proposals does the Government have to help families through this year's hard winter? And what progress has been made to ensure the way we do that is improved?

The Warm Homes programme encapsulates the aims of the Warm This Winter Wales campaign like no other single measure, in my opinion, and is therefore absolutely key to this debate. It's deeply and truly concerning that the next iteration of the programme has been so delayed. Actually, it's more than concerning; I think it's scandalous, and I think it's irresponsible.

We on the Equality and Social Justice Committee received the same answer for over a year to the questions we raised in our work regarding the new proposals, although the consultation on those new proposals closed in April 2022. I'd like to share an example of how worrying the Government's response has been on this: when we received unclear answers on the Government's plans from the Minister for Social Justice during a scrutiny session on debt and the cost of living, we wrote to her to ask for more clarity on proposals and timescales, and, in response, we were sent the answer from the Minister for Climate Change to a written question from me. We had to write again before we were given the answer many of us have now been receiving for months, which didn't shed much light.

Dirprwy Lywydd, this is absolutely urgent work that meets a desperate need to improve the energy efficiency of fuel-poor homes in Wales, to make them warmer, greener, healthier places to live, with energy bills that are permanently lower. And yet it seems this has not been given the focus it deserves. So, I hope, in response to the debate, we will receive the answer, that that e-mail pops into our inboxes, that the fuel-poor households of Wales get a clear answer, the answer they deserve, the answer that will give us faith that the Government has a coherent and deliverable plan, and that the timetable for this work is beyond vague indications.

So, Minister, what is the timeline for the new iteration of the Warm Homes programme? When will it be operational? Not what month, not 'by the winter', or 'the end of the winter' answers, please, which could actually mean it's the beginning of next spring. Can you tell us more about any change in eligibility criteria? What will be the threshold of any cap on support? And, crucially, how are you ensuring that this work will not slip any further? Diolch.

More than 80 per cent of fuel-poor households in Wales live in inefficient homes, higher than in any other UK nation, highlighting National Energy Action Cymru's concerns that current schemes are insufficient to deal with the scale of fuel poverty in Wales, and their call for guaranteed support for the worst first. There is an urgent need to upgrade the energy efficiency of fuel-poor homes in Wales, including owner-occupied and private rented sector homes, to make them much warmer, greener, healthier places to live, with energy bills that are permanently low.

In a letter in response to me as chair of the cross-party group on fuel poverty and energy efficiency in April, the Minister for Climate Change stated that she expects to procure a new demand-led scheme to replace Nest by the end of the calendar year, adding this will enable the new scheme to be awarded late autumn and mobilised over the winter, with delivery expected from late winter. The cross-party group believes it is imperative that the Welsh Government now implement the new Warm Homes programme with urgency, ensuring that the replacement demand-led scheme for NEST is operational this winter with eligibility and scale confirmed.

The Senedd’s Equality and Social Justice Committee report on fuel poverty and the Warm Homes programme makes several welcome recommendations regarding the next iteration of the Warm Homes programme, including for the Welsh Government to ensure the programme embeds the fabric and worst-first approach to retrofitting, targeting the poorest households in the least efficient homes; is bigger in scale, with smarter, less restrictive eligibility criteria, and greener in its interventions; looks to cover the cost of enabling works; removes the single application cap to help accommodate multiple measures and designs a more intelligent means of limiting costs; and is backed by a robust data collection, monitoring and evaluation framework with a fit-for-purpose quality assurance regime. This remains the best lasting way of tackling fuel poverty, reducing the amount of energy fuel-poor households need to use to heat their homes in the first place and providing a permanent reduction in energy bills.

In the years to come, the next scheme and programme will need to be backed by sufficient increased funding if the Welsh Government is to meet its 2035 fuel poverty targets and contribute to its efforts to reach net zero. And if, as we heard from Hefin David, the Welsh Government is issuing a policy statement on its Warm Homes programme today, it is imperative that the scheme is operational as soon as possible. Further important detail, including eligibility and scale, must be confirmed.

Unprecedented steps were taken by the UK Government to support people with the cost of living following Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine and its massive impacts on global food and fuel prices and the pressures on the economy caused by the pandemic. Amongst other things, this enabled the Welsh Government to double the winter fuel support scheme payment to £200 for eligible households to help with fuel prices.

Speaking here as Chair of the cross-party group on fuel poverty and energy efficiency last year, I called for the scheme’s eligibility criteria to be extended and was grateful when the Minister subsequently did this. However, questioning the Social Justice Minister here in January, and again last month following the Welsh Government’s announcement that it was not continuing the winter fuel scheme beyond 2022-23, I asked her whether this would be scrapped entirely, replaced by the original £100 payment or replaced by something else. I’d be grateful if the Minister could answer this now.

Further questioning her here last month, I noted her confirmation to my office that, although the Welsh Government had made up to £90 million available for payments to eligible low-income households under the 2022-23 winter fuel support scheme, and estimated that approximately 427,000 households will be eligible, less than £65 million had been spent by 28 February this year when applications closed, with local authorities across Wales reporting that just 316,000 households had applied and that only 341,468 had received a payment. I asked the Minister whether this underspend would therefore be carried forward, and if not, why not. However, it was not confirmed if this underspend will be carried forward to help the most vulnerable in fuel poverty. Again, I would be grateful if the Minister could answer this now. 

Lessons also need to be learnt on how benefit take-up is maximised in the future. As the Bevan Foundation reiterated in April, the Welsh Government should establish a coherent and integrated Welsh benefits system for all the means-tested benefits it is responsible for.

Mark, conclude now please.

We will be supporting this motion.

The sun is indeed beating down, but it really isn't that hot. I'm absolutely shocked that National Grid has recommissioned a coal-fired power station in order to meet demand to enable people to run air conditioning. You couldn't make it up, could you? It's not 40 degrees, but it will be if we don't change our ways. National Grid absolutely hasn't got it, and nor indeed has the population of the UK, because people are not explaining this to them. And if we don't have better-insulated houses, we're going to simply go on like this. It's total madness, and it's as if we didn't have a climate emergency.

We have 600,000 households living in fuel-poor homes who are absolutely between a rock and a hard place: they don't have the money to insulate their homes and they don't have the option to move to renewable energy. A majority of them are living in private rented homes. If that's what people who own their own home want to do, that's their problem, but our problem is those who are living in private rented housing who have no options, because if they start kicking up a row with their landlord, they'll just be kicked out. We're bottom of the European league table, and Wales has the coldest of all the homes that we have across our nations and regions.

It's over a year since the Equality and Social Justice Committee's report on fuel poverty, and we still don't have a refreshed Warm Homes programme. This is really, really serious. Because it simply isn't there to address the criticism of the previous programme, which was identified in detail by Audit Wales in November 2021, and here we are, being told we won't even have one by November 2023. As Jane Dodds has pointed out, it would take 134 years to rectify the insulation of people's homes. So I am really fearful for next winter, because we won't even have the additional support that was given to households by either the UK Government or the Welsh Government. It is really going to be a disaster. So, we really do have to look at solutions—I agree with you, Hefin David, and thank you very much for organising this debate.

I was looking up a report that I was involved in in the fourth Senedd with some of my colleagues, including John Griffiths and Julie Morgan, as well as Llyr Huws Gruffydd. It was published in March 2016. We needed 'A Smarter Energy Future for Wales', and our recommendations were that we aim to meet all of our energy needs from renewable sources, in the context of the need to reduce carbon emissions by, at that time, 80 per cent by 2050, and we need to set a target date for achieving this.

When you look at what we've actually achieved, it is pretty pathetic. That is the alternative that people need to be offered: you don't need to have the expensive gas and electricity that is determined by the magic price of the gas that day, which is just a guarantee for the energy companies who just want to go on doing the same old same old that's causing all the problems.

The other thing that we recommended was that we urgently need to revise the building regulations to ensure that all new houses are built to 'near zero' energy standards. If Lord Deben can be calling for a levy on all house builders who build more than 100 homes to reimburse all these homeowners who've just been dumped on, having to retrofit their homes because they'd been so inadequately built, surely the Welsh Labour Government can come up with something as fierce as that.

And equally, I'm just looking at what Ukraine has achieved since Russia invaded in February last year: they built enough renewable energy generation to power 200,000 homes 60 miles from the front line, generating 114 MW of electricity. England produced 1 MW of electricity with two offshore wind turbines. And Wales, which has—I've got a list of all the publicly owned energy programmes, whether they're community or individual households, local authorities, other public sector—

You need to conclude now, Jenny, please.

The total is 581 MW for all these organisations throughout all the years that we've ever done this. We absolutely need to have an ambitious renewable energy programme, and it's an emergency; not a nice-to-have—an emergency.

I'd also like to thank Hefin for staging this debate, and to Climate Cymru and Bethan Sayed for their work with this campaign. It is so very important. Many Members have already mentioned the cost-of-living crisis, and as we've heard, it is a crisis—the fact that simply staying alive now for so many people is a critical matter. And as we've already heard, it's not a matter of keeping warm for the coming winter alone. The campaign is focused on the need to find more sustainable solutions to tackle the climate and nature emergencies that we've heard so much about, to help people who are vulnerable now, but also to assist future generations.

Because these crises overlap. There's a social justice driver here in helping people who are struggling now, and in preventing climate catastrophe from condemning future generations to a life of cold, misery and darkness. This campaign is calling for significant radical increase in investment in renewables like solar and wind energy, focusing on empowering community schemes and protecting our natural world. Now, I join them—and I certainly, again, am very grateful that this debate is happening—in calling on the Welsh Government to redouble efforts to set up Ynni Cymru, and to explore what further devolved powers are necessary so that Wales can benefit from our natural resources. We are a country that is so rich in those resources, but we are at present locked out of benefiting from their potential. Devolving further powers over water and over the Crown Estate are two of the major changes that need to be seen urgently. 

And again, from a social justice perspective, it's of utmost importance that we support workers who are currently working in carbon-heavy industries so that they can gain new skills. We cannot stand by and allow another generation of workers in Wales to be disempowered by large-scale changes to their industry. The lessons from Thatcherism are still being felt, so this is a revolution, a change, a radical shift in how we sustain our lives, and that needs to happen with the people by empowering people, not by taking things away from people. 

Will you take an intervention? 

Certainly. 

You're talking there about moving workers from carbon-heavy industries to green industries, and we've suggested a transitional universal basic income would be one way of doing that. I don't know if you'd agree with that approach. Diolch yn fawr iawn.  

Diolch, Jane. I think that that is certainly—. It's exactly these kinds of radical—well, it shouldn't be radical, but radical ideas, thinking outside the box—bold—that need to be thought of, because as has been—. Jenny's made this point; other people have made the point too that if we keep on doing what we are doing now, well, there won't be a planet left for us to save, and it's the people in those most vulnerable positions who are going to be most at risk. So, certainly, if we can do anything to empower people in those situations, I fully agree with that sentiment—

Thank you for that. 

—because we have to change the way that we live. The days of market forces deciding who should be able to stay alive comfortably, frankly, they must be confined to history. The changes that are being proposed here are long overdue and they are simultaneously urgent, so I really urge Members to support this motion. Diolch yn fawr. 

Thank you to the Members for Caerphilly, Mid and West Wales and Alyn and Deeside for tabling this motion today. I was pleased to sign up in support of the motion, and I'm grateful to have the chance to speak in support of it today. As the motion sets out, people in the communities that we represent are facing a relentless succession of interrelated crises and challenges. All of us are affected by these combined pressures. However, and as the motion also reminds us, it's the most vulnerable groups in our society who are most affected. For example, the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health notes that energy increases are likely to affect the most vulnerable households more severely. We know that fuel-poor households live in less energy-efficient properties, so their energy cost increases are likely to be far higher than average. And that's without exploring the sheer criminality of the prepayment meters, which penalise the most vulnerable. 

I endorse the call from the Warm This Winter campaign, as it's clear that we must take action to support the most vulnerable. The Welsh Government has proactively brought forward a range of successful initiatives that have made a real difference to the people around us: the winter fuel support scheme, the cost-of-living payment, extra funding for the discretionary assistance fund, the fuel voucher scheme and funding for warm hubs. Regarding these, I'd just like to take a few moments to pay tribute to the volunteers in my constituency of Cynon Valley who have risen to the challenge. A robust network of winter welcome centres has been developed throughout Rhondda Cynon Taf, supported by the council, and offer local people somewhere warm and safe to go.

To use just three examples that I've visited over the course of the last winter, I went along to Abercwmboi community group to see the weekly warm hub that they provide at the Cap Coch Inn; the Cornerstone Church in Cwmbach offers a twice-weekly warm hub to people in the community; and the award-winning volunteers at Lee Gardens Pool run a weekly winter welcome service in the Penrhiwceiber old age centre. Now, all these projects offer local people somewhere to stay warm, to not have to worry about energy costs, but they do far more than that as well. The centres provide food for people who need it, offer somewhere for people to have a chat, some company, to tackle social isolation. This was something that really came across and was really appreciated when I spoke to people accessing these schemes. So, I want to place on record my sincere thanks for all of the volunteers across Cynon Valley and across Wales who make schemes like these happen.

However, as the motion reminds us, these initiatives, as important as they are, do not offer a permanent solution to the trials that our communities face. I support the motion's call for the Welsh Government to work to implement a solution that meets this challenge head on, using the levers that it controls and the powers that we do possess. I look forward to the Minister setting out her response to this point. But, perhaps, most of all, we need the UK Government to take action to fix the broken energy market, to fix the cost of energy. Whereas residential gas prices we pay are only just above the European average, we actually pay the third highest residential electricity prices in Europe. The support provided by the UK Government to households and businesses to meet the costs of energy are only around half of those provided by the German Government. Ministers in Westminster can and must do more. So, I hope that we can all support this motion today to send the strongest possible message. Diolch.

Before I call the next speaker, since it's been referenced several times this afternoon already, the Government has published its written statement on the Warm Home programme, so you can all have a quick look at it on e-mail if you want. Heledd Fychan.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I would like to thank Hefin David for bringing forward today's debate, one that's very important, as has already been outlined by so many Members in the Chamber already, and one I'm very pleased to support. There's no doubt that the Climate Cymru Warm This Winter campaign is one that a number of us have been pleased to support from the beginning, and I'd like to thank everyone related to the campaign and the excellent promotional work by Bethan Sayed. It's certainly ensured that people on the ground too are part of this campaign, that people in communities can see that there is something practical that they can do and be part of that wider campaign, and that's why so many are supporting it, of course.

I represent South Wales Central, so I know how important this campaign is. After all, this is the region that has been impacted by the climate crisis and nature crisis in a very real way in the past few years, as we saw with the damaging floods in 2020 and the ongoing threat to areas as we face extreme weather. This is also the region with some of the most deprived communities in Wales, where child poverty and the use of foodbanks are increasing. Indeed, it breaks my heart seeing on a daily basis the impact of political choices on people's lives, and they are political choices, we have to be honest about that, policies such as austerity, not continuing with the universal credit uplift, and, as we've already heard, allowing energy companies to charge a fortune whilst continuing to make a huge profit. This is immoral.

Jane Dodds spoke about people making the choice between having a warm home or food on the table, well, now, a number of our families can't afford to do either of those things. It is a very serious situation. We heard what Jack Sargeant said about the kind of offensive comments that people are going to go on holiday. Well, people don't have the money for the fundamentals and the basics. That's the reality in our constituencies and regions.

I think we also need to be honest in terms of how it is people living in poverty who are having the least impact on the environment in terms of the climate crisis. They don't have cars, because they can't afford them. They don't waste energy, because they watch every penny. They don't travel abroad by aeroplane; they use public transport where it is available to them. So, when we talk about people making changes, we need to ensure that we are targeting the people who are having that impact on the environment. And I don't think it's fair when we're preaching to people about the need to save energy, and so on—. Most people are doing everything possible, and that's why things like the Warm Homes schemes and ensuring that retrofitting is absolutely essential, because people aren't being wasteful with their energy.

And people are struggling to pay their bills. We've just received in our inboxes the Citizens Advice decarbonisation dashboard, and I would like to draw attention to that, because it does show that in Wales, almost one in two constituencies requires an average spend of over £15,000, compared to north-east England, where fewer than one in five homes require this level. If you look further into the statistics, they show that one in 10 customers in February of this year were behind on their energy bills, and this was an increase of 175 per cent from April 2020. I was really interested to see the figures then in terms of the region I represent. In Rhondda, 65 per cent homes require high investment, an average of £15,000, and in Cardiff Central, 63 per cent of homes. Every constituency in the region I represent is way over that 50 per cent. So, this is significant. The analysis by Citizens Advice is also interesting in terms of the number of jobs that this potentially could create. In just South Wales Central, 10,095 jobs—very significant when we've been hearing of job losses.

I was also interested in the analysis that a minimum that could be saved to the NHS by investing in homes in South Wales Central alone is between £25 million and £33 million—that’s a significant saving. So, it's trying to look at this issue—they are interconnected; we've obviously connected in terms of the climate emergency, heating, but in terms of savings with the NHS and so on, we have a future generations Act here in Wales. Every policy should be working together, but they are not. We talk about pitting budget against budget. We need to do this properly. We have an opportunity, and it’s people in our constituencies and regions who are suffering if we get it wrong.

I’m grateful to Hefin David for bringing this forward and to the work of Climate Cymru in bringing this to national attention. It's an absolute tragedy. It's a real tragedy that, on the warmest days of the year through the summer, there are many people who we represent in all parts of the country who are terrified about what's ahead of them. Terrified of the winter, terrified of the cold that they know that they will feel when the winter bites. Terrified of the impact of that. Children who can't sleep in bed at night because they're cold and are then unable to learn the following morning, because they're cold. Older people who are afraid to turn on the heating because they know they can't afford to pay the bills, and this in the twenty-first century. We should be ashamed of ourselves, all of us.

I recognise the work that the Welsh Government has done. I recognise, as well, the work of the United Kingdom Government in responding to the emergency that we have faced over recent months. But it is wrong. It is wrong for Ministers, either here or in London, to simply blame the situation in Ukraine for the situation we're facing today. This is not an accident of history; this is a lack of planning and a lack of foresight, and a lack of courage to take difficult decisions ahead of us. Because the climate crisis is not new, the crisis in energy production and energy distribution is not new. It's a failure of planning that has created the situation we face today. In that way, the situation in Ukraine is the catalyst and not the cause of the crisis that is facing people in all parts of the United Kingdom. We have to learn the lessons of this crisis, and for me, these lessons are twofold. First of all, whilst the help and support from the Welsh and UK Governments has been appreciated by those people who are suffering from fuel poverty today, we can't continually rely on what will always be temporary measures to support the poorest and most vulnerable people in our society. We have to change the way that we do energy in the United Kingdom, and that is the second point that I wish to make.

We need to plan for energy for the future. We need effective regulation. From my point of view and my analysis, Ofgem has failed completely over the last few decades to deliver the regulation that will deliver the prices and energy security that this country has the right to expect from its regulators. It has been a failure of the regulated market to deliver the investment that that market needs to deliver energy at an affordable price for people up and down the country, and we need to be able to say that. But we also need Governments to invest in future energy security and sustainability as well. We need the Welsh Government—and I hope the Minister will address this—to be supportive of the investments in distributed generation and in nuclear over the coming months and years. We need to know that the Welsh Government will support the small-scale modular reactors that could deliver baseload supply up and down the country. We need the Welsh Government to be a partner there. I know the Welsh Government worked hard with the Member for Sir Fôn to support the investment in Wylfa, and we appreciate that, but we need to plan this as well.

Minister, what I want to see from you, in terms of your response, is also what is the Welsh Government going to do to deliver distributed generation, small-scale local generation of energy, to bring together the climate policy with social policy, with economic policy. This is not rocket science; it's the basics. It's being delivered in other countries and it needs to be delivered in this country as well.

I'd like to thank Hefin David and Climate Cymru for bringing forward this debate. The Chancellor stated today that there is much still to do to grow the economy and that we must stick to the plan to halve inflation. This comes off the back of no intervention to stop rising food prices and increasing interest rates, which means an increase in mortgages and other loans, and crippling energy and food bills. Together, these bills prove an impossible mountain to climb each month for families in my constituency. Working families and children are falling into poverty.

Soaring food costs have led to a demand at our food banks unlike anything we have previously seen. Churches, chapels, charities and community groups have opened their doors to provide dedicated warm spaces, community pantries and top-up shops, where residents can access food free of charge or at a discount price. We shouldn't need this provision. With less money in our pockets, we're forced to make cheaper, unhealthier options, leading to a potential costly health crisis in the very near future.

While energy companies take advantage, handing out more to shareholders than the existing windfall tax has raised, the Government's energy price guarantee only guaranteed energy bills landing on doormats at more than double the charge compared to the beginning of last year. More worrying than that, the new energy price cap will still mean residents in Rhondda pay the same or very similar amounts to last winter, which is still more than double that of the previous year. I'd like to thank the Minister for Social Justice for her answer to my written questions regarding an energy social tariff, and I understand constructive discussions with the UK Government are ongoing. Off the back of this, I'd just like to ask the Minister, once more, to continue her great work and to continue to raise the importance of this with her UK Government counterparts, to ensure our constituents, like mine in Rhondda, are warm this winter.

I now call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Diolch yn fawr i chi i gyd. I'm really pleased. I'm really pleased that the Senedd is taking time to debate this important issue, highlighted by the Warm This Winter campaign and Climate Cymru. It gives me the opportunity to respond and update on Welsh Government's action and our position. Of course, this is very much cross-Government; with my colleague, the Minister for Climate Change, I'll be addressing the issues that you've raised in this debate and indeed have raised in this campaign. But yes, we all recognise, as you said, that the economic pressures and the nature and climate emergencies faced in Wales have come together in Wales in ways we've not seen before, exacerbating the issues many people face, resulting in the biggest fall in living standards since records began. And the World Meteorological Organization set out just last month how the likelihood of the world reaching 1.5 degrees of warming in the next five years is now 66 per cent. Just three years ago, it was less than 20 per cent. And just as the cost-of-living crisis most affects those who are already struggling, the climate crisis will also hit the most vulnerable the hardest. And thank you for all of those contributions today from speakers who've outlined and highlighted this. The Welsh Government recognises this, and we recently concluded, as you know, a call for evidence on how we can best secure a just transition to avoid these issues, to seize the opportunities of change. My colleague Julie James will be saying more on that in due course.

In these difficult times, the Welsh Government has used the full means at our disposal to help those most in need, through programmes that provide targeted support to alleviate financial pressures, taking action to maximise incomes, and initiatives that help deliver the social wage into Wales, keeping money in people's pockets. And to give just a few examples, our council tax reduction scheme provides £244 million of financial assistance to almost 270,000 low-income and vulnerable households. And, of these, almost 214,000 pay no council tax at all. The latest data shows that our commitment to the provision of free school meals has ensured that over 73,000 children received at least one nutritious meal as part of the school day. As part of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, an additional 45,000 reception class pupils have benefited from the roll-out of the universal primary free school meals programme.

Now, it's also important and good to hear from Members today about the initiatives that we've taken. It is important to recognise the fact that we provided £244 million of financial assistance to the most low-income and vulnerable households, as I said. But also we provided that support in term of the winter fuel support scheme, which assisted so many households, in fact, 340,000 households in the last financial year—the Welsh Government fuel support scheme.

But we are not able to continue with that scheme. As you know, this year, our funding allocation from the UK Government was insufficient to enable us to repeat many of these schemes, but I am pleased that the Fuel Bank Foundation partnership continues into this year to provide fuel vouchers and the heat fund to support people on prepayment meters, and that our warm hubs—the £1 million we've put in—has made a difference in terms of those welcome centres, and Vikki Howells drew attention to that.

So, we did focus on our discretionary assistance fund this year, and that received an additional £18.8 million—

Minister, will you take an intervention?

Yes, certainly.

Hefin David.

Thank you for that, and I really appreciate the fleshing out of the debate that you're doing today. We've had the warm homes statement, and I think it's safe to say it provides some information, but is very broad brush, and I think we need the chance to interrogate it here in this Chamber. Would you be able to give us the guarantee that—? As you said earlier in your statement that Julie James will be providing further advice, will you give us the guarantee that this will then be able to be discussed in this Chamber at a date before the recess?

Yes, and Hefin, I was going to go on to that as I realise the statement, a written statement, has just come up, so I'll get to that very quickly. And of course, this is the statement today made by the Minister for Climate Change, and, quite clearly, you’ll need to have the opportunity to address and raise questions about that.

So, I just wanted to make the point about the discretionary assistance fund being a really important priority for us, because it does help urgent assistance to households facing those unprecedented costs for the most basic of things, such as food and fuel. You know about the work that we're doing with community food organisations. And can I also congratulate and thank not only all those who've spoken and have continued to speak about the scandal of prepayment meter forced installations, but particularly to Jack Sargeant and for the petition he's taking forward? Also, we have to recognise that, despite repeated representation to the UK Government, the energy bill support scheme—I think that's also been mentioned—of £400, a lifeline, ended in April.

So, going on to those wider issues within our devolved competence, we're breaking down the barriers to the roll-out of renewables to secure local benefit. Our programme for government commits us to expanding renewable energy generation by public bodies and community enterprises in Wales by over 100 MW between 2021 and 2026. We grant fund Community Energy Wales, that not-for-profit membership organisation supporting and representing community groups developing energy projects in Wales, and they received significantly increased support for their current three-year business plan, and that scaling up support for community and local energy in Wales. That point, of course, Alun Davies made as well. 

We've recontracted recently the Welsh Government energy service to support communities in the public sector to invest in renewable energy, reducing their bills and raising revenue to deliver local services. That funding does enable community groups to employ staff, fund projects and explore opportunities for investing in shared-ownership projects—again, a key point made in this debate and in the campaign.

So, in October, as you know, last year, Julie James announced that we will be setting up a company to develop large-scale renewable energy developments on public land, increasing the value to Wales of renewable energy projects developed on the Welsh Government estate. We've already seen communities benefit during COVID and the cost-of-living crisis from the community funds from existing windfarms on the estate, and we want to build on this and deliver the real and long-term differences to local communities.

So, yes, Hefin, thank you for bringing this motion forward. It's really important that now the Minister for Climate Change has announced the policy details to the new Warm Homes scheme with her written statement, and we expect to procure that scheme this year. It will continue to focus on energy efficiency, building on the success of previous schemes, in which we've invested £420 million, helping over 73,000 households since 2010. And of course, it is important that it's not only measures in homes in terms of energy efficiency, it's also free energy efficiency advice.

I just want to go on to the point about the optimised retrofit scheme, because, obviously, the Warm Homes scheme is within the private sector, owner-occupied homes, but the optimised retrofit scheme will continue to improve energy efficiency in the social sector, alongside the system changes being run through by the revised Welsh housing quality standard. So, consultation, finalising—as many of you know on the committees, the new standard is to be published later this year. It's going to be a bold ambition to bring our social housing stock up to the highest possible levels of energy efficiency. It will keep anti-poverty requirements at its heart, and it will improve energy efficiency. That's got the aim of supporting tenants and well-being, and all new social housing must achieve EPC A or an equivalent standard now; existing social housing must have a targeted energy pathway in place to achieve EPC A by 2033, or by a date after 2033 that—

Minister, you need to conclude now, please.

So, I will conclude. Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Welsh Government is fully committed to tackling the current crises. We can't tackle these alone; the UK Government has a significant part to play. And I would say, finally—and this is, again, responding to Jack Sargeant and others—that my call is to mandate the removal of prepayment meters installed by force by the current process over the course of the last six months. I have in my hand a letter from Ofgem telling me that 5,647 PPM installations under warrant were installed last year, and we have over 460,000 people in Wales, households, with PPM. So, I will publish that letter. I'm grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this, and to Climate Cymru for their campaign. We will be supporting this motion. The written statement has been made by the Minister for Climate Change. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on Hefin David to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, a diolch, Gweinidog. I can see that the statement has been made. If anybody ever wonders why we've got computers in this Chamber, it's really helpful to have the statement straight to the screen.

I do want to make just a point about the statement. It is very broad brush. I think we still need information on the timeline for the procurement of a new service. We need a statement on the budget—we need information on the budget—and we need information on eligibility. I'll come back to that in a second. Jenny. 

Do you agree with me that actually what it is is a list of the different recommendations that have come from both Audit Wales and from the climate change and the social justice committees, which is not a policy?

Yes. So, I was coming on to that. I was looking through the link that links to the collective statement, and in there it says:

'The significant number of fossil fuel boiler replacements is not sustainable.'

And then it leads that,

'By restricting eligibility to the most energy inefficient homes, the Welsh Government aimed to ensure that the Nest scheme focused its limited resources'.

And, therefore, the Welsh Government needs to be clear about what the core aim of Nest would be, and future eligibility criteria. So, then you switch to the statement, and the statement says—just bear with me a second. The statement says:

'The new scheme will tackle both the climate emergency and fuel poverty. In line with the Government’s commitment to ensure a just transition to net zero, it will focus on supporting the worst-off households in the poorest condition buildings in the owner occupied, private rented and housing co-operative sectors.'

All of that seems very broad, and I think we have legitimate questions now about how you focus in on solving those problems that we have all identified today in the debate. And I think the statement needs interrogation, it needs detail.

I think we should welcome the fact that the Nest scheme is going to be extended until the new programme is procured. That is very welcome, because it certainly gives us that window, but I think we do need that discussion, that debate. And I think we can collectively say in this Chamber that we welcome the Minister for Social Justice's view that this will be debated, and I think we'd be concerned if that didn't happen. That's the general view I'm getting from the Chamber today. So, I think that's really important. We welcome the statement, but I think what it does is, it raises more questions than it answers, and that is a key point, a fundamental part of this debate.

So, I was going to do the traditional summing up. I suppose I haven't really got much time—I've got two and a half minutes—but Jane Dodds, you said you wanted a bonanza tax. A bonanza tax—I like that rather than a windfall tax. The issue is that any kind of tax like that is a one-off, and I think you've got to have the sustainability built in as well. And I think we could talk about windfall taxes, but I think, sometimes, the public get a little bit sceptical and say, 'Okay, well, what do you do afterwards?', and I think that is certainly the case. A universal basic income might be the answer, but, again, that needs funding as well.

Jack—prepayment meters. I actually think the Minister gave you a really supportive answer there, but still more needs to be done, and I know your committee is working on this. Sioned, you identified that bills are not normal. They're not normal at this time, and debt advice needs to be better, and I think that echoes the issue I raised, that the Warm This Winter campaign would like to see more detail from Welsh Government on how they're going to support people this winter, 2023, as well.

And Delyth, I thought that your view, to sum up, in my view, was that invest-to-save isn't just about investing to save money; it's investing to save lives, and that's what we're talking about here. I thought I'd put it as you might put it, and I think that's certainly, absolutely, what we're talking about and why we say, in this Chamber, that we are looking for specific spending commitments. Those spending commitments, actually, over a period of time, will run themselves to savings and, in consequence, save lives.

Vikki Howells emphasised the role of the UK Government, but also then went local, talking about warm hubs and Welsh Government support for warm hubs being really important. Buffy, next to me, did the same thing and talked about how the cost-of-living and inflation are impacting on foodbanks in her constituency as well.

Heledd Fychan, this was another one that I really thought cut to the heart of this: people living in poverty have the least impact on climate change, but are suffering the most because of it, and I think that's a significant lesson that we need to raise. If the statement from the Welsh Government is about social justice, if the aim is social justice, then it has to be targeted at those people who are suffering most because of the actions of people who earn the most.

And finally, I do want to come back to Jack Sargeant's really powerful overall point that it's not just about prepayment meters; it's about the fact that the wealthiest people, the suppliers, the stakeholders and executives, are so far removed from reality that they do not understand the plight of people in the communities that we represent here in Wales, and that cuts to the heart of this debate.

I just want to thank everyone for—. And Mark Isherwood's point too. I wanted to pay tribute to him as chair of the cross-party group on fuel poverty and the long service he's had there, and the valuable contribution that he's made from the perspective of experience and service in this Chamber, and I think we should all respect that, and we are grateful for it. But I'm grateful to everyone for this debate today. I think we've made our point, and we look forward to the next debate on this in this Chamber.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 6 this afternoon is the debate on the Children, Young People and Education Committee's report on 'Mental Health support in Higher Education'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Jayne Bryant.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. Before I start, I would like to say that throughout this debate we will be talking about issues around mental health. Talking and being open about mental health is important to break down stigma, but I know and understand that it can be upsetting for some.

I’m pleased that today’s debate is, I believe, a first in the Chamber: two Government Members responding to a single committee report. Due to the cross-cutting nature of the report and our recommendations, we felt it was important to hear both from the Minister for Education and Welsh Language and the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being. I’m incredibly grateful that they were both willing to take up our invitation for this innovative step, and that the Llywydd was also supportive. So, diolch yn fawr. As committees often look at issues broadly and holistically, resulting in cross-cutting recommendations, I hope today’s joint response is the first of many.

Finally, before I talk about the report itself, I'd like to thank all those who have engaged with the committee, in particular, the students who responded to our survey or who we met during our visits to higher education institutions. We know that it can be difficult to share some of those experiences, but we hope that you can see the issues you've raised reflected in the report and its recommendations. I'd also like to thank all those who provided written and oral evidence to the committee, and the university staff who helped facilitate our engagement. We had such high-quality written and oral evidence, which certainly made it easier for the committee to identify and draw upon robust recommendations. And it's also important that I put on record, on behalf of the committee, our thanks to the clerking team, led by Naomi Stocks. Naomi and the team have really been excellent. And I’d also like to thank my fellow committee members for working together collegiately and sensitively on an issue that I know is important to us all.

Like many other committees, we use our strategic plan to help us prioritise the work we do. There are two particular priorities that shaped our decision to do this work: the emotional and mental well-being of children and young people; and ensuring our scrutiny is timely and constructive. Issues around student well-being and welfare were raised during our scrutiny of the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill, and we stated that we would be likely to revisit these issues at some point during this Senedd. We decided to do this work now because it provided us with an opportunity to help inform development of the new regulatory framework for higher education. The establishment of the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research is a big change for post-16 education, and we want to play a constructive role in the commission’s future, and felt that doing this work at this point could shape both the Welsh Government’s and the future commission’s thinking.

Now is the time for a step change in support for students' mental health. We were given examples of good practice in the evidence we gathered, and of attempts to work across sectors and across geographical boundaries to improve student mental health support. But supporting students with their mental health is complex for many reasons. We made 33 recommendations, which we strongly believe, if fully implemented, would bring about that step change to deliver timely and comprehensive support for students.

One of the clear themes from the evidence was the need for a common framework that sets out a baseline of what a student can expect in terms of seamless support for their mental health, regardless of where they are studying in Wales. This does not mean that all institutions must provide the same type of support, because another clear theme of the evidence was the need to tailor support to the context of the institutions, different student groups and to individual student need. Such a framework would balance the need for a consistent offer against the need for tailored support to meet individual needs. It was clear from the evidence we received from institutions that they believed such a common framework was both necessary and deliverable.

This is exactly what recommendation 15 calls for, and I'm really pleased that it has been accepted. In responding, the Welsh Government highlights that the new registration and funding conditions will enable the commission to set out clear expectations, and that the commission will take account of our recommendations in developing these conditions. In doing this, the commission will build on the existing Stepchange framework and the work already being done by the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales. This, they say, will effectively constitute the common framework the committee has called for.

However, I would like to know how this package of work will be communicated to students. Will all this work be pulled together into a single place that clearly sets out exactly what the framework is? Will it be easily available to students, and set out in ways that helps them understand exactly what they can expect? Will it provide them with the ways and means to challenge if their institution is not providing this?

Closely linked to this recommendation is recommendation 25, which calls for the recently piloted mental health university liaison service in Cardiff and the Vale to be rolled out across Wales. The evidence from the sector was that this pilot has been a real game changer. We also heard from others across Wales who would love to see similar projects in their own areas.

Early evaluation seems to suggest that this approach really does fill a much-needed gap, and addresses some of the other issues raised throughout our report. These issues include the need for close working between the NHS and higher education sector; development of shared language, thresholds and definitions; and development of clear information and data-sharing protocols.

It is again promising to see that this recommendation has been accepted in principle, and that HEFCW has begun to plan for a wider roll-out, pending the evaluation of the pilot. The Government has said that rolling out this pilot nationally will require longer term funding, which will ultimately be a decision for the commission. I'd urge the Minister to do everything to help support the roll-out of this approach across Wales. And I imagine this is an issue that the committee will continue to monitor closely as the commission is established.

While these two recommendations were at the heart of our report, other recommendations covered issues such as the need for improved data and intelligence, so that we can better understand the extent of the issues faced by students and what interventions work. This need for improved publicly available data continues to be a theme in much of our work.

We also recommended specific support to be developed for international students and healthcare and social care students, who may face particular challenges as well as specific barriers to accessing support. And I'm pleased, again, that both these recommendations have been accepted.

Other recommendations covered the impact of the pandemic and the cost-of-living crisis; the need for more mental health training and awareness for both staff and students; and the need for sustainable funding that matches the level of need. We also reflected on the Health and Social Care Committee’s work on mental health inequalities, and the Welsh Youth Parliament's mental health and well-being committee report, 'Young Minds Matter'.

Before I conclude, I also want to reflect on another report that informed our considerations: Mind Cymru’s 'Sort the Switch' report. It looked at the transitions between child and adolescent mental health services and adult mental health services. And this report, and the incredibly powerful evidence session with some of the young people who were involved in the report, led to recommendation 33. And this calls for full implementation of the recommendations in 'Sort the Switch'.

I know that that evidence session will remain with me and the rest of the committee for a long time. The young people spoke with great power about their experiences and how they wanted to improve things for young people who follow in their footsteps. Clearly, not all students are 18-years-old and not all students will face transition to adult support services at the same time as going to higher education. But this is the reality for a number of young people, and managing both transitions effectively will play a vital role in ensuring they have a successful time in higher education.

I would like to thank the Deputy Minister for her engagement with us on this issue, including coming to give evidence to the committee and her recent correspondence. And while, as a committee, we're disappointed that the recommendation has been rejected, I'd like to ask the Deputy Minister if she would be willing to commit to provide a further update to the committee, outlining which recommendations from 'Sort the Switch' don’t align with the programme of work already under way to improve transition services. And I appreciate there's a very small amount of time today in which to do that, so, after this debate would be helpful too.

I would like to once again to thank everyone who contributed to this work. It’s clear that there is a commitment from all in the sector and the Welsh Government, but we need to ensure that this work is delivered at pace and results in real change on the ground so that students, no matter where they are studying or what their own personal background is, get the right support at the right time, when they need it. I look forward to listening to the other speakers today, and to hearing from both the Minister and Deputy Minister, who are so critical to delivery of our suite of recommendations. Diolch yn fawr.

I'd first like to start by thanking and paying tribute to our fabulous committee Chair, Jayne Bryant, our brilliant committee clerk I see up there, and the whole of our CYP team, as well, of course, as my fellow committee members for enabling this report, as well as, of course, those who provided evidence, particularly our young people who added such value to our report. I agree with our Chair; it is really, really positive that both Ministers are going to respond to this debate today, so thank you to them.

The mental health of our young people is something that we all, as a committee, share concerns about, so we are all thankful, I know, to have carried out this review. Our committee broadly found that the extent of the mental health issues among students in higher education has been increasing in recent years, which is worrying, not just for educational outcomes, but, more importantly, the well-being, of course, of our young people. One in four students reported having diagnosed mental health issues, and a further one in four reported undiagnosed mental health issues. Most concerningly, UCAS statistics have shown a 450 per cent increase in applicants disclosing a mental health condition as part of the application process, a trend echoed by Cardiff University, who have seen an 89 per cent increase in students declaring a mental health condition during the application process.

The report identified a widespread concern from stakeholders that there were significant data gaps in Wales, as they often have to use UK-wide data to identify what issues students are facing. It is crucial that we have a Wales-wide data set, not just UK-extracted data, so we can get a better understanding of the picture here in Wales.

When it comes to the pandemic effect, it is clear that mental health issues, of course, predate the pandemic, but they have definitely being exacerbated by it, for example impacting the ability to socialise, to work and afford university. We have seen Universities Wales and the Royal College of Occupational Therapists highlight concerns about social development. This is something I believe we need far more research into, as we found in committee, so we can truly grasp the full severity of it, and it was clear from our evidence gathering that it has been significant. The pandemic, of course, has not just affected students, but also staff. The impact is unquantifiable, and there needs to be an all-encompassing approach when addressing this issue.

When it comes to transitioning to higher education, as our Chair has just outlined, our report has highlighted the need for more to be done earlier in the application and admissions process to support these transitions. There needs to be better flagging of mental health support on open days, along with higher education institutions providing programmes for students prior to starting that promote health and well-being. So, I'm pleased to see the Welsh Government's commitment to providing twice yearly regular information and any available data on the roll-out of the whole-system approach in pre-16 education, and that they will take forward the recommendation from the post-16 education sector to consider ways universities can work with the local post-16 colleges and schools to support learner mental health in advance of the transition to higher education.

Our report found that the increasing volume and complexity of cases are placing a strain on the ability to support students and that there are significant issues with training for those practitioners who, either directly or indirectly, deal with student mental health. They expressed the importance of appropriate, timely training being made available to staff within a provider. There is a need for national framework to improve mental health across the board, and it's imperative that the Welsh Government publish universal guidance on how to address the mental health deficit. It is clear that this is missing, or at least currently lacking.

Finally, overall, there is a lot of work to be done on ensuring we address the current mental health crisis in Wales. We need an all-encompassing approach that is copied and used across the board so we don't see that variation of provision across Wales. I'm pleased to see the Welsh Government agree with most of our proposals, but I'd like to see this Senedd regularly updated on the process of implementation. There is a lot of work that needs to be done, but there are also a lot of quick wins that Government can make now to contribute towards more positive mental health, because our young people's well-being matters.

I'd like to declare an interest, namely that my husband is employed by Swansea University and a member of UCU. I'd also like to echo the thanks already given. This was very timely and revealed the unique challenges faced by students in terms of their mental health and well-being, which of course have intensified because of the pandemic, and also the difficult economic climate.

The evidence was very clear. According to NUS Wales, we are in the midst of a mental health crisis for students here in Wales. In all universities, the data and the anecdotal evidence was consistent in terms of the significant increase in the number of students who need support, and also an increase in the number of students who were in crisis when they needed to access support.

Our main finding, I think, was that there wasn't a consistent level of mental health support for students in all parts of Wales, and therefore, that every student couldn't make the most of their education in university. Most of our recommendations relate to how we can tackle that issue. It is disappointing that the Government hasn't accepted in full those recommendations, particularly given the increase in the numbers and percentages of students registered in the nine universities and three HE institutions regulated by HEFCW that declared that they had a mental health issue.

I’d like to thank the students that shared their experiences in such an honest way with us. Some of those experiences were entirely heartbreaking and caused real concern about how the potential of these students is undermined and limited. It is heartbreaking on a personal level, of course, but also something that will make us poorer as a nation.

But it was encouraging, despite the frightening statistics, to hear about effective solutions that did make a difference, such as the mental health university liaison service pilot scheme, which was being implemented in the Cardiff area, which showed clearly how we could close those damaging gaps that too often exist between the provision of support services and support in the health sector. This recommendation is one of many that are accepted in part rather than fully, because there are funding implications that will, in time, become a responsibility for the new tertiary education and research body. I encourage the Government to prioritise this work in terms of planning and funding, and I'd like to hear a commitment today from the education Minister on that.

In terms of solutions, working more effectively and closely between health and education across boundaries is crucial. Some of the recommendations that we make call for systemic changes, but there were some issues that appeared simpler to resolve; for example, we heard from a student who said that she needed three different letters from her GP, all of them costing £15, because the wording wasn't in accordance with what was needed by the education provider in accordance with their policies. So, I would like to know from the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being whether she'll tackle these practical issues within the health service that just add to the mental health burden, and also the economic burdens faced by students

One of the sessions, as we heard from the Chair, that had the greatest impact on me was to hear from young people who are part of the 'Sort the Switch' Mind Cymru campaign. Their experiences were varied, but they spoke with one voice in feeling that the system was being imposed upon them and that their voices weren't being heard. It was very disappointing, therefore, to see that the Government had rejected our recommendation to accept the 'Sort the Switch' report’s recommendations, and I would like to understand better, Deputy Minister, the rationale for this. The response to the report says that all of these requirements are not consistent with current work programmes. So, my question is: well, why is that the case? I wonder whether you need to look at those work programmes as a result of this.

And finally, I was pleased to see that the Government accepted our recommendation that the Government and the new tertiary commission should work in social partnership with HE institutions to ensure that working conditions don't undermine staff and their ability to provide effective support for their students, because Orla Tarn, the president of NUS Wales, told us very powerfully that you couldn't pour from an empty jug. That is to say that staff in our universities, who are already facing stress and anxiety because of unfair working conditions and salary, aren't best placed to provide the support that their students need. The dispute, as we know, is continuing and indeed is intensifying, with HE institutions reducing salaries for staff who are taking part in the perfectly legal boycott of marking and assessment, which is disproportionate and unjust. So, education Minister, how are you working as a Government to resolve this dispute, which is likely to break that jug into a thousand pieces? Thank you.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd also like to echo the thanks given. Not to duplicate what my committee colleagues and other Members have contributed, I'd like to raise two points during today's debate that have really worried me since our work of compiling and publishing the report.

The first is the universities' perception of how easy it is for students and young people to find mental health support provided by universities. I was fortunate to meet with a number of university mental health staff and students. I'd like to thank them for their time. We discussed their experience providing and accessing mental health support in university. The picture painted by the staff proved vastly different to the experience of the students, especially for those students with disabilities and additional learning needs.

The staff were upbeat and positive, outlining the numerous adverts pointing towards channels students can use to access support, which was in complete contrast to the students, who felt it was unclear to whom and where they could turn to access support—so much so, they set up their own support group off campus.

To ensure students who need mental health support don’t miss out in future, it would be beneficial for the Minister to have constructive conversations with our further education sector regarding how they reach students and young people. An annual or biannual health and well-being survey that includes mental health may prove fruitful.

The second point I’d like to raise is regarding international students. In Rhondda alone, dozens of international students tell me they find themselves in desperate situations as a result of deception and neglect by their universities. Students are being recruited on a lie, and are left to fend for themselves on arrival. Can you imagine leaving your home to study in the UK with the promise of accommodation for you and your dependents only to find you’re left with a one-bedroom flat, having to rent a house in this current climate or pay for an Airbnb, with no support from the university?

These students have no recourse to public funds. If it wasn’t for volunteers like Natalie and students like Esther, who have been volunteering their time day and night to support these students and their families with accommodation and food, they would be left with nothing.

These people only find themselves in this situation as a result of empty promises from the university. This inevitably takes its toll on their mental health. But trying to access further support from the universities has proved futile—so much so that I was told by one of the students they wouldn’t think twice about finding the nearest beach, walking into the sea and never returning.

People cannot live like this, and I’m ashamed that their Welsh university has led them to feel this way. I would urge the Minister to demand change from our universities, demand that support is stepped up for the students who have arrived following their lies, and demand that students arriving in the future are fully informed of what awaits them on arrival. Diolch.

I'd like to also share the comments of my other committee members in thanking our clerking team and also our Chair, Jayne Bryant, for excellently chairing the committee, and also to all those young people who fed into this inquiry as well. Before I start my main contribution, I just wanted to mention the 'Sort the Switch' evidence session that we had here in the Senedd. I think that's probably one of the most powerful evidence sessions I have taken since I've been a Member of this place and even when I was a councillor. I felt so compelled that day to apologise on behalf of Welsh politicians for the way those young people had been treated. I did feel ashamed to be a Member of this Senedd in the way that we had been letting those young people down.

But what I thought was also important about this debate was—. It was highlighted by stakeholders and a number of young people that this was an issue that we needed to look at, and I know from the Deputy Minister for Mental Health, who was here when she was the committee Chair of the children and young people's committee, that this was something that was clear in the 'Mind over matter' report that came forward, and I'm pleased that the Deputy Minister is going to be responding to this debate today.

What was clear during the evidence session was that data is lacking across our Welsh universities, and I think if we are going to deliver that change that we need, universities and the Welsh Government need to have that data to hand, so that we understand how many young people are struggling across our universities to make sure we can put that support and help in place, and that was one of our recommendations in the report.

What also became apparent were the issues facing our international students. I went on a visit with committee member Sioned Williams to Swansea Glyndŵr university, and we heard directly from international students there about the challenges they were facing, mainly because of cultural issues and not being able to feel supported to come forward to disclose an issue, because if they disclosed something, they weren't quite sure how that would be treated by their families back home or other students there. So, there is a massive piece of work that needs to be done to support our international students right across Wales to make sure they are supported and get the help that we need.

Another issue that I thought came through the report was the transition from students going into higher education and those students not feeling that they were supported as they were coming through. A lot of those students who currently had mental health conditions were not disclosing that to the university, mainly because they didn't feel there was the opportunity to do that, and actually that the mental health element of the induction was a five-minute conversation at the end. That was one conversation that we did have, and it was, 'If you've got a problem come and see me at the bottom at the end,' and that student didn't feel they could actually go there, because half the class, who were there, would think that they had a problem, and that's just not the way the do that. So, we do need to make sure that we are supporting our young people through the transition into HE, and I know that was another recommendation in our report.

What I thought was clear from the whole inquiry was the need for cross-departmental working between the education Minister here and the Deputy Minister for Mental Health. I'm pleased that recommendation 11 was accepted by the Government, and it would be very good to learn what work the Deputy Minister has started in that working group and to see how you're going to improve the actual mental health support that our young people are getting in our higher education institutions in Wales. I was disappointed that the Government did not fully accept recommendation 13, where we did call for that whole-system approach in HE, because if you bring everything together, it would actually help deliver a better service for those young people in our institutions, and I'd like to know a bit more from the Government of why they actually don't think that is actually needed across our institution in Wales.

Another thing that stood out for me was actually the understanding between higher education institutions and our health boards about how they work collectively together to help people, because another piece of evidence that we heard was that the different thresholds of level of intervention and support were different between higher education institutions and the health boards, and I think that really does need to be ironed out, because we cannot be expecting our lecturers and teachers in universities to actually become counsellors and social workers for students when actually the support they need is through our health boards and professionals trained there to deliver that support. So, I would like to know what the Welsh Government is doing to make sure there is more synergy between those two areas.

So, overall, I think it was clear that doing nothing is simply not an option. We have a duty to support young people in our higher education institutions across Wales, because their mental health is very, very important to their educational attainment, but we need to support them to become fully rounded individuals to get that good-quality education they need and the support they need in higher education, and also to our teaching staff as well, to make sure that they are also supported and trained properly to help people who come forward to manage those young people who need the help they need. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd.

I'd like to begin by also thanking our superb Chair, Jayne Bryant, and also the clerking team and my colleagues on the committee. I think that we all worked incredibly closely together and with genuine individual and collective passion for the subject matter during this inquiry. I'd also like to thank every single person and individual that contributed during the course of the inquiry. In particular, I'd like to thank those young people, who, as Jayne Bryant has already said, spoke with us with such clarity and purpose, and with such insight and power. Their contribution was enormous, and we are very, very grateful for the candid discussion that took place during the course of the inquiry.

I'm just going to make a few points, if I may, Dirprwy Lywydd. Firstly, preparedness for transitions—transitions of any type—are absolutely vital. And I say this as somebody who experienced mental ill-health as a consequence of a lack of preparedness for higher education more than 20 years ago. Now, our report outlines how to improve and enhance learner preparedness, informed again by the voices of young people who contributed to the inquiry. And I hope that, if the Welsh Government embraces and really implements what we have presented, preparedness will soon reach the point that is required for seamless transition into higher education.

Now, I do share the disappointment of others concerning the Welsh Government's rejection of recommendation 33, which was formed, shaped and informed very clearly by young people themselves. I'm sure Ministers would agree that the voice of young people should be at the heart of policy making, wherever and however policy affects them. So, I would like further reasoning, as Jayne Bryant has requested, for rejecting recommendation 33. And I'd also urge Ministers to meet with those young people who gave evidence as part of 'Sort the Switch'.

Now, finally, I don't think that any committee member really expected Ministers to agree to our suggestion that both Ministers respond today. That you are responding together I think shows how the Welsh Government is genuinely working on a cross-portfolio basis, and I hope that your initiative sets a very healthy precedent for others in Government to follow. Diolch. 

Thank you to the Children, Young People and Education Committee for bringing forward this very, very important debate to the Senedd this afternoon. As the health spokesperson for Plaid Cymru, as part of the Health and Social Care Committee, I, like so many of you, have spent a great deal of time discussing mental health in so many different contexts. And I'm very eager to extend that discussion to different contexts too. But mental health in this context today is one that strikes a particular chord with me, not because of my own personal experiences, but because of the appalling experience of a family in my constituency. 

Mared Foulkes was a student in her second year studying pharmacy in Cardiff University when she received an automated e-mail by the university telling her that she had failed her examinations and that she wouldn't proceed to her third year. The news was so disappointing to this young, intelligent, bright woman, the way that the news was shared in such a cold way, the feeling that the support was so insufficient, that Mared saw no other option but to take her own life. I remember Mared as a very young girl, the same age as my eldest daughter. This event didn't just shatter a family and a friendship group; it was news that broke hearts across the community on Anglesey. Everyone was affected by the sadness of losing a young woman who was so talented, so full of potential, under such terrible circumstances, and so many remember her. 

It then became clear that the automated message was incorrect and that she had, truth be told, passed her examinations, and that the original e-mail was sent in error, which makes this story even more heartbreaking. But Mared's case, as with similar cases, is testimony to the failure to fulfil a duty of care. When universities accept young people into their institutions, they have to ensure that they understand that they are very, very young people—not even 18 years of age very often, as we've heard this afternoon—several of them are moving away from home for the first time, and many of them learning how to live independently for the first time. And the universities have to be there to support them through those changes. 

Mared's case, and how the news was shared, without anyone from the university there to support her at the time, how the news that's so important to the lives of our young people was released without being checked, are all examples of a failure to hold that duty of care at a sufficiently resilient level. The feelings run as high for Mared's family as they always have done, and always will. Whilst I welcome the fact that universities are now discussing these issues more openly—and the committee's work has driven that openness—there is still so much to do. I know that Mared's family is determined that the recommendations made as a result of events at Bristol university will be implemented, so if there are concerns about the well-being and welfare of a student, they will be acted upon and families informed. I know that there are different views on how that model should be adopted, but parents and carers have to be as sure as possible that they send their children off to a caring environment when they go to university.

I'll mention very quickly some of  the elements related to health in the report. I'm very pleased that the Government is open to the idea of passports, to share information with regard to mental health without having to go through many barriers. I'm also pleased that the Government has made produced a report on CAMHS waiting times for every health board and that development plans are being drawn up. These are positive developments that I think are to be welcomed. But, for us to see the changes that we do want to see, we have to take action in every area within universities, and place the welfare and mental health of students at the heart of every single decision, so that cases such as Mared's aren't repeated here in Wales again.

I call on the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, Jeremy Miles.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'd like to thank the committee for bringing forward this important debate and for the contribution of the young people to the inquiry. The committee is entirely right that we must ensure that students have the support that they need, to maintain good mental health. That's why we will be working to ensure that every university has the necessary resources to support student mental health, including counselling services and psychological support services.

We welcome the work of HEFCW, in partnership with the sector, to develop a strategic approach and to incorporate health and well-being, including mental health and safeguards from suicide in their policies and practices. We've just heard from Rhun ap Iorwerth just how important that work is.

The committee's report expressed concerns that students were not accessing everything they are entitled to financially. Earlier this year, we announced an additional £2.3 million to support universities' health and well-being strategies. We all know how financial pressures impact on mental health, so HEFCW were asked to prioritise developing and promoting financial services and advice, and to work together with student unions in reviewing the support provided. We are committed to supporting day-to-day living costs for students, and I'm sure Members will all have seen, and been pleased to have seen, that we were able to increase maintenance support by 9.4 per cent for the next academic year.

The committee report highlighted the importance of support for transition to higher education, and both James Evans and Ken Skates have raised that again in today's debate. We recognise the challenges faced during transitions between stages of education, which is why we've funded all universities, including the Open University, to work collaboratively to develop University Ready, a unique set of resources on making the transition into higher education. As the committee recommended, we also commissioned evaluation effectiveness of previously allocated COVID-19-related funding for post-16 education, and we await the outcomes of this report.

The establishment of the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research gives us an opportunity to confront the challenges facing student mental health across both further and higher education. Addressing the point that Sioned Williams made, expressing her disappointment that we haven't accepted all recommendations in full, we've been mindful, in our response to the recommendations, that the opportunity to take further action will fall, in part, to the commission when it's fully operational next year. We're also conscious that, during the passage of the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Act 2022, the committee itself stressed the importance of ensuring that the commission operates at an arm's length from Welsh Government, which obviously we agree with as a Government. But I'm sure that the task of addressing the questions that Jayne Bryant raised, and also some of the points that Sioned Williams asked about, will be important considerations for the commission.

Nonetheless, it's because of the challenges identified by the sector and campaigners regarding student mental health that, last year, we were the first nation in the UK to legislate to ensure that tertiary education providers have proper processes, services and policies in place to support the welfare, well-being and safety of students and staff. The new registration and funding condition will be developed by the commission, and we anticipate that, in doing so, it will implement a number of the recommendations in the report, including sharing best practice, encouraging the delivery of appropriate training, and improving processes for disclosure and recording of student mental health conditions, all of which have been touched on in various ways today.

Regarding the point that Jayne Bryant raised in connection with recommendation 15, we expect that this will create a common framework for mental health support across tertiary education, making it clear to students the baseline that they can expect from providers in this area. I should say as well that the commission will also play an important part in ensuring greater co-ordination in service provision between providers in education and healthcare services. Buffy Williams and James Evans made an important point in relation to international students. Universities have a responsibility to ensure that information and advice provided by contracted agents is clear and up to date, so that prospective students can make fully informed decisions. This is a matter that I've met with the vice-chancellors to discuss. We are also working with HEFCW to ensure that international students are aware both of their rights and their responsibilities before accepting a university place, so that those decisions can be made in an informed way.

Over the coming months, we will look forward to taking forward the majority of the committee's recommendations, to ensure that students receive all the support that they need.

And now, I call on the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, Lynne Neagle.

Thank you, Deputy Llywydd. Can I thank you for the opportunity to speak in this debate, and can I also take this opportunity to thank the committee for their work on this important inquiry? The Minister for education and I have been taking a joint-ministerial approach to this. We have our joint oversight board, which is focused on delivering a whole-system approach to emotional mental health and well-being in schools, and I also recently convened and chair our ministerial higher education, further education mental health advisory group, to explore opportunities to enhance the offer within higher education and further education settings, and to inform the development of our successor mental health strategy for Wales.

I was pleased to see the recommendations from the committee that recognise the role of this group, and also the recommendation that post-16 students are an integral part of our new mental health strategy, and I'm happy to reaffirm that commitment today. I'm committed to continuing to strengthen our policy in this area and sustaining our investment in mental health to ensure that everyone, including students, can access support when it is needed. Next week, I will be making a statement on the implementation of our 111 press 2 service for urgent mental health advice and support. This new service is transformational, and I've asked officials to ensure that information is provided to the higher education and FE sectors, so that they can raise awareness of this and other mental health support with their students. This is one important development in relation to improving access, but I do, however, recognise that, for students, more work is needed. We have accepted in principle a range of recommendations to help students access primary care and to share health information, and several Members have made reference to that today.

Given the shortage of time that I've got, I'd like to use my remaining time to just respond to a few of the points that were made directly in the debate. Several Members raised the mental health university liaison service, and that recommendation was accepted in principle because of the work with the commission going on. But just to assure the Chamber that I have visited the service; I think it is an excellent service. I think there is something there about holding on to those young people, and we know that the transition to university is a time of vulnerability for young people, and we've both restated in our response our commitment to seeing that service rolled out. I think it is important to recognise that the success of the service in Cardiff also depends on the partnerships that exist with the local health board. So, that's something that we're going to have to actively work to replicate. 

Laura, you referred to the reporting on the whole-school approach work. Just to clarify for the record that what we've committed to do is give annual updates to the committee on that, in line with the academic year. I would reiterate that we offered the committee the opportunity to send the Chair to be part of our new whole-school approach and whole-system approach delivery board, which will receive detailed updates on all these areas of work, and that option is very much open to the committee. 

James, you asked for an update on the working group. It's early days for the working group; we've met twice. The focus is on trying to establish some quick wins around the issues that we've highlighted, but also, vitally, to identify issues in the new strategy. 

If I can just turn now to 'Sort the Switch', Ken said that there's nothing more important than the voices of young people, and I absolutely agree, and that's why I came so quickly to the committee to listen to what you had heard from those young people. We also commissioned our own work from Tros Gynnal Plant with young people, which gave us the same messages. And I was absolutely clear with the committee that we know that there is more work to be done on transitions, and I am 100 per cent committed to doing that work. We've had the workshops with the health boards. I am going to be meeting young people to talk about the young person's passport, and I give you my commitment that we will improve transitions from children to adult mental health services.

Just to say on the rejection of that recommendation that 'Sort the Switch' is a very important report, aligned with the other reports that I referred to, but the recommendations were much broader than our current work plan, which is being prioritised to focus on those areas that will have the most impact. And an example of that is the recommendation around extending statutory advocacy, which is something we want to do but we can't do as an immediate priority.

I also wanted to let the committee know that officials are working closely with Mind Cymru, and they, in fact, support our current work programme. And, in fact, since the publication of their report, has refocused this ask of Welsh Government into four key asks: to listen to and act on the voices of young people in specialist CAMHS, and we are doing that; to make sure national guidance is delivered, and I was clear to the committee that this is about implementation and driving that implementation now; to support young people when they leave specialist CAMHS; and to change the way services are run to better involve young people's voices. And I believe the work that we're doing and the assurances I've given the committee about monitoring and a new framework  to monitor delivery in this area will make sure that these things are delivered.

And just to assure the committee and Members in this Chamber, we are absolutely determined to get this right, and I would have taken the committee's hand off if they had made a different kind of recommendation, but hopefully that has clarified our position on that. Diolch.  

I call on the Chair of the committee, Jayne Bryant, to reply to the debate. 

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd, and thank you, once again, to everybody who's taken part today in this debate. It's really very much appreciated, and I know that, for so many Members—or, I think, all Members—in this Chamber, it's something that we all very much care about. I realise that I don't have a lot of time to go through all of the points that have been made today, but we have heard from—. We started off hearing from Laura who talked about the importance of the number of undiagnosed and diagnosed students who are presenting at universities with mental health conditions, and the importance of the data sets to get that better understanding of where we are as well. So, thank you for that contribution, Laura. 

Sioned mentioned the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research and some of the opportunities there, as well as mentioning the positive examples that we have heard about, and as we highlighted so strongly in our committee report and our recommendation on the mental health university liaison service. We thought incredibly well of that and we look forward to seeing how that progresses—very closely we’ll be following that.

We also heard then from Buffy, who talked about international students, and Buffy spoke very passionately about some of the experiences that international students have shared with her. This is something that, as a committee, we also heard from others on as well, and I was glad to hear the Minister touching on that in his response as well.

James mentioned 'Sort the Switch' and the powerful voices of those young people who we all heard, and also the visits that all Members went on to speak to young people across Wales. I think that was something that we took very seriously, and we’re very grateful to those young people who spoke to us at their place of study as well. James also talked about the cross-departmental working as well.

Rhun—very grateful for your contribution, and also for sharing the tragic circumstances of Mared’s death. I really appreciate you bringing that to us today, and our condolences to Mared’s family and her friends. Also, the importance that universities are out there to care and support, and I think that’s something that universities must remember—to put the mental health and well-being of their students at the heart of everything as well.

Thank you, then, to our Ministers, who both responded. As I say, they were very grateful for today, and this is a first—we don’t often have firsts, I feel, in the Chamber, but today was one of those. Thank you for your detailed responses in the short time that you both had, so we do appreciate that. The Minister for education talked about a strategic approach, and also how the commission provides an opportunity now, and also about the baseline that students will come to expect in terms of mental health and well-being, and what universities offer. Thank you for the words you said around international students as well, because I think that is really important.

Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, again, thank you for talking about the joint ministerial approach. I think that nothing shows that more than today’s response. And the importance, again, that everyone, including students, needs to know what support is available, and that they get that support when they need that support. We look forward to following that mental health university liaison service, and we will be keeping a close eye on this. I can’t say enough how much we feel as passionately as you about how good it is, and we look forward to that rolling out, hopefully. We hear what you’ve said about the work that needs to be done on transitions. We feel that and share your commitment on that, so diolch yn fawr, and thank you to everybody for contributing today. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 7 this afternoon is the Welsh Conservatives debate on additional learning needs, and I call on Laura Anne Jones to move the motion. 

Diolch yn fawr, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’m honoured to open this both vital and timely debate this afternoon and move our motion tabled in the name of my colleague, Darren Millar.

I’m glad that the Welsh Conservatives have been able to use their time to host this debate today. I’ve stated my concerns to the Minister both in committee and on the floor of this Senedd several times in relation to what is happening on the ground in our schools with the implementation of the new—and, we agree, much needed—ALN reforms, and the lack of ALN provision. This isn’t a debate on whether reform was necessary—I think we can all agree that it was—but this is a debate to highlight the ever increasingly urgent situation we have in our schools, and that those children in urgent need of specialist, one-to-one ALN support within our classrooms in Wales just aren’t receiving it.

Llywydd, it’s not just the odd school affected by this. It’s not just the odd child. It’s every school and hundreds of children. As a Senedd, we can’t be okay that parental choice to have their children in mainstream education is being taken away due to the lack of provision and lack of ALN support for those who need it. Home schooling is a parental choice that many children flourish in, but being forced to home school due to resources not being there in mainstream education to help our children and young people where it's needed is not okay.

Members from your own benches, Minister, share these concerns of seeing a rise in coming out of mainstream education because of these reasons. Every school that I've visited the length and breadth of Wales, without exception, have stated to me their concerns of not having sufficient moneys available to deliver the ALN support needed in their schools, both primary and secondary.

Teachers and school leaders were noticeably upset that they weren't able to supply their children with the support they need due to the massively overstretched budgets. This is, in part, due to directive after directive from this Welsh Government without the money to follow them to ensure delivery for things, in the most part, that are much needed in our schools and in education in Wales. The lack of money in schools to fulfil AL needs impacts not only those needing the specialised support, but everyone—all teachers, all pupils in that classroom.

Whilst waiting extraordinarily long waits for statements for children to come back, teachers are having to stretch themselves to teach a full class of pupils as well as having to attend to the very specific needs of one, two, three children in that classroom. That is an almost impossible situation, which means all pupils will miss out somehow through no fault of that teacher. Deputy Presiding Officer, children and young people in Wales have already missed enough schooling due to the pandemic and suffered enough from inadequate mental health support in our schools. This situation with ALN is causing unnecessary stress on our teachers, affecting their mental health, increasing their workload pressures, which must be considered by the Minister.

The Minister states that equity is important in the Government amendment—it is to all of us, but equality of opportunity to have the best education possible surely underpins all aspirations when making decisions in education in Wales. We need to absolutely ensure all schools have the tools they need to deliver the best education possible. It is not sustainable to have a situation where continuous directives are put on schools where the money doesn't follow. School budgets should not be at crisis point, where the fundamentals to ensuring the best education cannot be delivered because vital ALN staff cannot be afforded. I also think that the Welsh Government should seriously look at incorporating ALN training into all teacher training as a fundamental going forward, so we are able to utilise our workforce better.

I would now like to move to the Plaid Cymru amendments, which we will, of course, be supporting, and I thank you for raising such an important point as the need for bilingual support with ALN. We too recognise the urgent need to have this addressed, and, Deputy Presiding Officer, I hope that the Labour benches will join us both in supporting these amendments, supporting the Welsh language provision in this regard.

Moving to Labour's amendment, we unfortunately won't be supporting the Labour amendment today, not because we don't welcome the new reforms—as I said, this is not what this debate is about—but due to the Welsh Government's failure to recognise that extraordinary and rising delays and the challenges in the roll-out of ALN reforms, coupled with increased demands for ALN, are causing a postcode lottery in access to ALN support for learners across Wales. I must note our disappointment that your amendment to point 1 of our motion fails to recognise this concerning reality in schools across Wales. In fact, I would challenge the Minister to visit any school across Wales and for ALN provision to not be one of their top priorities and their top concerns.

By not amending point 2 of our motion, I'm assuming that the education Minister and the Welsh Government do recognise the urgency and will, therefore, be supporting our calls to increase direct funding to Welsh schools to plug this gap in provision that is clearly there right now. The extension of the implementation of the Act and the extra funding to education partners for ALN implementation until 2025 is welcome, but could the Minister in his response make it clear who these education partners are and where exactly this money is going? Thank you.

Deputy Presiding Officer, the major problem and reasons for this debate are that money, resources and expertise need to go to the front line now to ensure children are identified and statemented quickly enough and get the support that they need. That means to schools, who can identify these kids quicker than anyone else; they know their children, they know their needs, they know how to help, before any official diagnosis is made. We all recognise new ALN reforms are making steady progress, and, of course, there is naturally going to be a difficult period of transition, but, Minister, what about those learners slipping through the net right now? What about all the children and young people not getting the education they deserve right now? What about all the disruption caused to all pupils' education and the impact on teachers' well-being and their ability to teach? The current situation in our schools is worrying, and therefore it's disappointing that it's taken our opposition debate to get some real action and movement on this. But at least, if the Government are saying that they recognise the need, we will hopefully now see real action on this going forward.

As set out in our motion, without significant increase in funding on top of what's already been promised, directly to schools, more and more of our children's education will be negatively impacted. Surely this is the last thing we want to happen in Wales. Alongside the all-important funding and training, we need an urgent review of the current implementation of the ALN reforms, and I'm glad that the Minister, in a letter dated yesterday, has said that this review will happen. I look forward to the Estyn thematic review in September 2023, which will also indicate whether the needs of ALN are being met, but the Government also need to recognise that urgent action needs to be taken now. We cannot wait to hear the findings of that review, so that we can truly get to the bottom of these issues that schools are facing with the implementation, and plug the gaps to ensure that we are giving our children in Wales the very best opportunities to succeed. So, I look forward to hearing speeches from across the Chamber today and to the Minister's response, and I would ask you all to support our motion today. Diolch.

I have selected the three amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Formally.

And I call on Heledd Fychan to move amendments 2 and 3, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'm very pleased to hear that the Conservatives will be supporting those amendments. I'm also very grateful that you have put forward this debate. It is an exceptionally important issue for a number of our constituents. Indeed, I had two families yesterday contacting me, and they didn't know that this debate was happening today in the Senedd. It is a very live issue. And speaking to many of my fellow Members, I know that we all have casework related to these issues and the deficiencies that there are within the current system. And as Laura Anne Jones outlined, we, too, support the reforms by the Welsh Government. They're very much needed and we do understand that there are major challenges in terms of achieving the ambition; we know that the workforce is a huge challenge, but we also believe that there is room for improvement in the provision, to be honest, about some of the failings that there are at present.

Without a doubt, despite these reforms, there are major concerns by a number of families, unions, teachers and the wider sector about the provision in terms of additional learning needs in Wales. I hear very often about deficiencies in the support available, problems that schools have with receiving sufficient funding to provide the support needed, as already outlined, and, in some cases, that parents have made the decision to educate at home because the education system can't meet the needs of a child or young person. It's something that we have been discussing in seeing absences from school increasing. When we discussed education at home, just last week in the Siambr, this is an issue, and it does have an impact mostly on women, who have to give up their jobs to educate at home. It is a matter of equality too, and I think that we do need to look at that aspect of it too.

As already mentioned, the provision at present is one that happens at random, almost—it depends on your postcode—and that's particularly true when it comes to Welsh-medium provision, with access to suitable additional learning needs provision and support varying widely even within the region that I represent in South Wales Central.

As outlined in the paper published jointly by the Welsh Language Commissioner and the Children's Commissioner for Wales on 1 June—I hope that the Minister perhaps will be able to respond to that paper; I'm sure that you have seen it since it was published at the Urdd Eisteddfod—under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, children have the right to receive education in their own language, and they go on to say in the report that evidence shows that there is a long way to go to ensure an education system through the medium of Welsh with regard to ALN, and they say that there are major challenges. But I think that what was frightening, but wasn't a shock perhaps to any of us, because it is something we have already heard in the report, is, if I may quote:

'Either Welsh-medium learners must receive support through the medium of English, do not receive the support required, or, as in the case of some learners with more complex needs, choose English medium education from the outset, as they are already aware of the lack of Welsh-medium ALN support.'

Well, in the past six months, three different families have come to me as a regional Member to raise these exact issues. One family has moved school and has received English-medium education against their wishes because they believe that the English-medium service is more appropriate for their child; others have had to change the language spoken at home or have had to move to another local authority area. This is not acceptable. We also know that there is evidence that children with communication needs in other languages, including BSL, are also suffering from a lack of adequate provision.

As I said at the beginning, we know that there are challenges in terms of the workforce and so on, but one of the issues that we also hear about—and I still hear about it when I get responses from some local authorities—is that there is no demand for this provision through the medium of Welsh. I refuse to accept that that is the case, because the casework that reaches my office doesn't reflect that. I think that there are geographical challenges and so on, but the truth is if we don't provide equal opportunities for everyone—and the Minister frequently says that the Welsh language belongs to everyone, and it does, but if we do want to ensure that every child and young person can access the Welsh language, then meeting these needs in terms of language choice is particularly important. And I think when we're talking about people having to move to another local authority area or to change the household language, in a modern Wales, where we have a target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050, that is something that we do have to find solutions for.

So, I thank you for bringing this issue forward. There is work to be done, but, more than anything, I want to know exactly what the solutions are and how we will ensure that every child and young person can receive the support that they need.

I was motivated to join this debate because I absolutely think that the Welsh Conservatives are framing it in the wrong way. Of course the number of children and young people receiving ALN support has decreased, because the system by which we evaluate it has changed. There isn't any longer a perverse incentive to spend huge amounts of time and resources pursuing financial support, filling in forms and getting assessment after assessment, because that is no longer the way in which we're doing this. So, schools have to own the pupils that they have with them and there's absolutely no justification for continuing to chase the money, rather than getting on with making reasonable adjustments to pupils' individual needs.

You argue in your motion that there's a postcode lottery for support for learners. I haven't heard the evidence yet, and I'd like to see it, because, obviously, were that to be the case, we'd need to be very worried. You quote a report that's nearly two years old that 94 per cent of school leaders report that there's not enough money for this, but I would remind you that the Welsh Government's budget is £1 billion short this year, and therefore there isn't a huge amount of new money going around.

I have yet to understand the need for an urgent review so soon after the ALN system has been established. It is, after all, only 18 months and five terms that this new system has been in place, and, certainly, school governors are still getting their heads around their new responsibilities. Yes, some staff, particularly in secondary schools, we learn from Estyn, are unclear about their individual responsibilities, and that's obviously a concern if teaching and learning is not appropriately shaped to meet the needs of the pupils in front of them.

So, I absolutely—. It isn't the way I'm experiencing it as a school governor of many years standing—25 years, I think. It seems to me that where—. Some staff do not realise that provision for ALN—this is Estyn—is everyone's responsibility. If teachers are not differentiating their classes and their teaching to ensure that different pupils' needs and different learning styles are taken into account, then clearly there are some learning and training issues there that need to be resolved.

But I can assure you that in the school where I'm a governor, out of 1,500 pupils we have 120 young people following a bespoke pathway. Nine pupils are receiving individual tuition only, because their mental health or other trauma does not enable them to be taking part in a classroom situation. We already have identified 10 pupils in the next year 7 who are going to have IDPs in place. We have five pupils who have never been back to school as a result of the trauma they've suffered during COVID, and that is despite the best efforts of the school to try and encourage them to come into school in whatever way they can, and we have at least one pupil who has opted for home-school learning because they're actually going out to work to supplement the family income in the middle of the cost-of-living crisis.

These things are really important, really serious, but I think the evidence that the additional learning needs reforms are not working at this stage is not presented here this afternoon, or not so far, and I wait to hear from other people were that to be the case.

I'm delighted to take part in this debate and highlight the need to ensure that children with additional learning needs are sufficiently supported through the education system. According to the Welsh Government, the additional learning needs reforms affect around one in five pupils, and we know that educational outcomes are poorer for those learners compared to the rest of the pupil population, and so reforms were very much needed, and to be fair the Welsh Government's ALN reforms made some very positive changes that have been welcomed by stakeholders and the education profession. However, there are also some very serious concerns too—concerns about resources and concerns about implementation, particularly given that these reforms have coincided with the COVID pandemic, a new curriculum, and post-16 reforms too.

Every teacher in Wales, at some point in their career, will work with a child who will need additional support, and it's vital that they have the skills and training to ensure they can provide the best possible support in the classroom. Members may be aware of the petition started by Clare-Anna Mitchell that calls for all teachers and teaching assistants to have compulsory training in additional learning needs, and I believe that Ms Mitchell is absolutely right. We know that the first step in improving the educational experiences and outcomes for children with additional learning needs is to improve the training that teachers receive, so I do hope the Welsh Government is genuinely listening to the concerns raised by parents like Ms Mitchell, and I hope action is forthcoming to better support their children.

I appreciate that the Welsh Government has provided £12 million in funding to increase the resources for schools to implement the new ALN system and lead whole-school strategies to embed inclusive education. That funding is key to ensuring schools have the tools that they need to better support individual learners, and so it is absolutely essential that that funding reaches as many schools as possible. For example, Welsh language support for children with additional learning needs is desperately lacking, as we've heard from Heledd Fychan, and for some parents there just aren't the resources in place for their child to receive support through a Welsh-medium mainstream school.

So, I do hope that the Welsh Government will redouble its efforts to ensure resources are available in both English and Welsh, so that parents are able to send their child to a school of their choice in their local area. Indeed, perhaps the Minister will take the opportunity to tell us what steps the Welsh Government is taking to ensure that children are able to access the support they need in both Welsh-medium and English-medium schools.

Our motion recognises that the number of children and young people receiving additional learning needs support has decreased since the introduction of the reforms made last year, and we on this side of the Chamber have some concerns. We believe that there needs to be an urgent review of the implementation of ALN reforms to ensure that they are effective and that learners are getting the help that they need. There is a genuine fear that there are children in Wales who need additional support but they are just not receiving it. There is still inconsistency across Wales in the amount of support available to neurodiverse children in schools, as well as variations in the quality of provisions provided, and that is simply not good enough.

And so, I want to voice my support for the calls to review the ALN reforms, and I hope the Welsh Government will seriously consider the points in our motion this afternoon. We must strive for better, and ensure that learners who have additional needs are able to be properly supported in schools, and indeed, in college settings. And we must ensure that children are able to access that support in English and in Welsh.

And finally, Llywydd, I'd like to remind Members that it was six years ago today that I introduced the Autism (Wales) Bill, with a clear purpose to improve services for people with autism in Wales. We know that some children with autism have additional learning needs, and an autism Bill could have gone some way to supporting them through the education system. But that legislation was blocked, and yet the problems that these children and their families are facing are still there six years on. So, I urge Members to support this motion, and send a statement today that this Senedd is willing to prioritise this issue and ensure that learners with additional needs are able to get the support that they need. Thank you. 

I declare an interest as a parent of a child who's severely autistic and is benefiting from this legislation. We actually had, as parents, a meeting with the teachers a few weeks ago, and the preparation for the IDP is incredible. It's inclusive, it involves more than one teacher, it involves the additional learning needs co-ordinator, and, I have to say, it made a huge difference to me as a parent being able to plan for my daughter's future—planning some three, four, five years ahead. I think the nature of my daughter's condition is so clear that it does make it slightly easier to see her future direction. She's in a specialist resource space at the moment and has come on incredibly well, and her future is starting to take shape, and I'm starting to understand it. And just from a speech I made a few years ago, I asked, 'Will she ever be able to tell me that she loves me?' Well, she tells me that she loves me, and I tell her that I love her back now, so I'm really pleased that she's able to do that.

One thing I wanted to say is: in order to know where we're going, it's helpful to know where we've been. And I often reflect upon what kind of support would I have had if I had my daughter's condition when I was born. And I've got a sample of Hansard from 13 July 1970, which was the Second Reading of the Education (Handicapped Children) Act 1970,  and the Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science, Mr William van Straubenzee, a Tory MP, was introducing the Second Reading, and he said,

'The Government's reintroduction of the provisions of Clause 1 at the earliest possible moment will, I know, reassure many people who have the interests of mentally handicapped children at heart, and not least their parents and those who have the important duty of teaching them in junior training centres and in hospitals for the mentally handicapped.' 

'After the transfer enacted by the Bill, the junior training centres will be run by local education authorities as part of the special education provision. The L.E.A.s will also be responsible for the provision of education for children in hospitals for the mentally handicapped, in the same way as they now provide education for children who are in hospitals for reasons other than mental handicap. In assuming this responsibility, local education authorities will be able to build upon the splendid foundation of teaching work among mentally handicapped children which has already been laid by the hospital authorities.'

So, you can see very clearly that the direction that the Government has gone with this is to move the responsibility very much to schools, away from the health service. Imagine what it would have been like then to have had your child educated in a hospital setting because there was nowhere else for them to go.

There was a tv documentary that looked at the Mental Health Act 1959 and the impact it was having in 1973, three years after the introduction of this Bill, and many children we would today identify as autistic were being held in hospital and being classified, following the Mental Health Act 1959, as 'severely sub-normal'. Now, my concern is, if my daughter was born then, she would be in hospital, with not much chance of getting out, being educated in that setting. 

So, to understand where we are now, it is helpful to understand the progress we've made. And it was a paediatrician called Dr Derek Ricks, who sadly died very young in 1988, who started to make the changes that were necessary. And I think the Government is standing on the shoulders of giants here in moving towards this provision. I was on the committee that introduced the ALN Act, and I'm very pleased to see it in operation. The challenge for it is where there is a grey area. So, I've said my daughter is clearly autistic and has very clear needs. Some parents feel that their children have needs in that grey area: do they need to be in a resource space, should they be in a mainstream class, should they be in a special school? And this is where things get particularly difficult and where the system becomes stretched.

Martin and Sarah Humphreys are parents in my constituency, and they've mentioned their son, Luke, and what they've said to me was that, 'Every time we ask for Luke to experience a more varied curriculum, we've been met with resistance and obstacles, time delays and refusal. Luke spent his primary education in mainstream school with a one-to-one assistant and met his targets like the rest of the class.' He's now in discussion, through the IDP system, as to where his next destination will be. Unlike my daughter, it isn't as clear, and that is where the challenge is. But I'd say the Government are addressing that, and I agree with everything Jenny Rathbone said.

As a parent of a child with additional learning needs, and supporting those in my constituency, this system is working, and there will always be challenges that it will face, but I think we need to give it time to work and to follow that through. I think the Government is doing the right thing, and I will be supporting the Government's amendment to the motion today.

I'll also have to declare an interest, as I've got a nephew who is waiting for an autism diagnosis.

I agree with some of the points that Laura Anne Jones made, and Hefin David, that reforms were necessary, because the old system was not fit for purpose, it was too complicated and it wasn't user friendly, and I'm pleased that reforms are taking place. However, recent findings show concerning developments in the Welsh Government's approach to delivering the new transition to a new framework, which puts some of the most vulnerable people at risk in Wales. I won't go into it all; Paul Davies mentioned a lot of the points I want to make.

But I go round a lot of schools in my constituency, and from the personal experience that my family have seen, there are a number of young people with additional learning needs in classrooms in Wales who simply cannot get support, because they do not have a diagnosis to access the levels of support they need. I've got a headteacher in one of my schools in Brecon and Radnor who spends 90 per cent of her time caring for a child with ALN. They know that child has got ALN, but they cannot access the support because that child has not yet got a diagnosis. And, if they have got a diagnosis, a lot of the schools are saying that the funding isn't coming through the system. They're having to make radical changes to their school by either not filling places or not doing developments and refurbishment on the school, to actually fund the additional learning needs that is required.

I know the Deputy Minister for Social Services is here, and I know the ALN part of getting diagnosis is in her portfolio, and I think it's very, very important now that we actually focus on getting those young people who are in our schools, who need diagnosis, to get the support they need through the system. There are thousands of young people stuck, waiting for a diagnosis for autism or a neurodiverse condition. They are young people who are in our schools, who need the support and they're not getting it. I'm being told of other—. Yes, I'll take an intervention, Jenny. I see you getting on your feet.

Diagnosis is important, but, at the end of the day, the school has to devise some provision that meets the needs of the child, and the diagnosis will only be an indication. Schools have got to own the pupils that they've got, and ensure that they're making necessary adjustments to meet the needs of individual children. Clearly, there's a debate to be had between parents and the child, as to whether a mainstream school is appropriate or a specialist unit, but, at the end of the day, it's the provision, not the diagnosis that's the most important.

I agree with everything you're saying, Jenny: it's very important that schools do own the pupils that they have, and those schools want those pupils to be owned by their school. But, unfortunately, to get the support they need, they need a diagnosis, because the funding follows a diagnosis. And schools who are cash strapped, because they've had years of underfunding from the Government—this is the only Government that has cut the education budget across the UK—they don't have the money in their resources to actually fund that, so they need the diagnosis to get there.

So, what I would like to know from the Government is: what are you doing to make sure that those young people get the support they need, by getting the diagnosis in place, so that they can receive the support that they need in schools? Because that is the way you will solve a lot of these problems. There are too many people being pulled out of school because they cannot get the support they need, and too many teachers sat—I'm going to finish, Hefin; it's okay—and too many teachers sat actually doing caring jobs, when they should be actually helping our young people develop their education.

The purpose of the legislation, of course, was to move away from the situation that James Evans has just described. Every child needs and deserves the same opportunity to reach their full potential, whatever their particular needs are in terms of their education. Every child has the same right to an education that meets those needs and helps and enables them to flourish and enjoy school or college—not simply to be educated, but to enjoy that education. And for too long, parents have had to struggle, to fight, to campaign—year after year after year—without getting the help and the support that their children require. It was a real privilege to guide this legislation through as a Minister, and I remain grateful to Darren Millar, the Conservative spokesperson at the time, who shared, I think, the same vision and the same ambition for children who do have additional learning needs. We disagreed on certain things, but we agreed on far more. I think it's important to recognise that agreement across the Chamber on what we want to see.

But I want to be reassured, Minister, that we are delivering on that ambition. Because the one thing that I've learnt over these past years is that there is inconsistency in the delivery of the policy. My experience is different to that of others. My experience is that parents still do have to struggle too hard to get the support that their child requires. I want reassurance that the implementation of the policy delivers on the vision. I recognise that we are reforming the curriculum, and that is an urgent priority. I recognise also that the pandemic has had an enormously disruptive impact on where we were and what our timescales were prior to that. I recognise all of that. But I want the reassurance from Government that the commitment to a consistency of approach remains as strong as it was when the legislation was being put in place. Kirsty Williams, of course, was the education Minister at the time. I remember her determination, and I remember the way in which she spoke about this legislation, and the determination that every child matters, and that the needs of every child must be met in a holistic way. And that remains, I hope, the driving force—and I know, with the current education Minister, it will remain as the driving force of policy.

But that consistency is important. It's consistency through the journey, through school, into college, and into adulthood. Does the support be delivered over time? Is it delivered over geography? It is far easier to receive the specialisms needed in a city like Cardiff than it is in other parts of the country. Do all our communities have the same level of support that they require to deliver the same holistic education? [Interruption.] I'll take an intervention.

Thank you for taking the intervention. I agree wholeheartedly with the point that you're making, Alun, about the fact that we need a consistent approach across the whole country—that certainly isn't the case. In fact, one of the problems that I've had constituents bring to my door is that, when people relocate from one local authority area to another, they then, very often, have to unpick the support that was previously in place, and start from scratch, having a battle with the new local authority into which they have relocated. Is that something that you've experienced in your constituency?

The IDP, of course, should be a portable document, and should be able to follow the individual through different schools and different opportunities and different places. And so, that was certainly one of the objectives of the legislation. If it isn't being delivered, then we need to understand why that is true.

And the other point about consistency is that about the Welsh language. Again, my experience is that support in the Welsh language is not available in the way that it is in the English language. And that means that there are children in school today who are missing out on the sort of educational support they need because they speak Welsh. That is not good enough, and we need to address that.

We need to ensure that teachers have the training available to them to ensure that they're able to deliver the teaching that they require. And we need to ensure that the funding is available. The opening speaker was—. I should say, Laura, you were on your sabbatical from this place when this legislation went through this place, and we did put a great deal of funding in place. Those people who were members of the Finance Committee will remember the trouble I got into when we didn't put the funding in place originally. And the funding was put in place. I want to see where that funding has gone and how it's being delivered. So, I hope that we will be able to ensure that we do have this person-centred approach and a holistic approach to education, one that's rooted in a determination to achieve equality for all young people and children, wherever and however they're being educated. 

I will conclude on this point, Presiding Officer. I know the Children, Young People and Education Committee is consulting on these matters at the moment, and I think it would be a very good example of how committees in this place can review legislation after it's been passed by this place, after it's become law, to ensure the post-legislative scrutiny examines not just the ambitions of the legislation, but how that legislation is being delivered in practice.  

I wholeheartedly agree with Alun, really. Access to learning opportunities is a fundamental right that no-one should be excluded from. Research from NAHT Cymru has suggested that 94 per cent of school leaders in Wales believe the funding they are in receipt of is insufficient for the requirements of the ALN legislation. On top of that, a third said that they had to fund additional support, as help was not available or accessible from health and social services care. These young people deserve the freedom to learn and seize the same opportunities as their peers.

It is incredibly concerning that even though approximately one in five learners in Wales have ALN, Wales has seen a drastic reduction in ALN support. This includes the reduction of staff as well as investment into schools, delays to repairs or refurbishment, and the cutting of the maintenance budget. These significant reductions saw 18,000 fewer young people being identified as requiring ALN in the last year, creating a postcode lottery for young people seeking ALN support. These figures are even more alarming in Welsh-medium schools. This continued lack of support has meant families feel that they struggle at every stage of the process of getting the required support, leading to them not knowing where to go for help and advice, leading to young people struggling at the first hurdle.

Unfortunately, behind these statistics are the very real stories of people who have been let down by the lack of support. We have all heard from constituents outlining the need for additional support, especially surrounding those with Down's syndrome on their progression through education. Constituents have highlighted the lack of specialised residential support available to students with Down's syndrome who are looking to leave home and live with their friends. This lack of support seriously limits options for students looking to access the same opportunities that many of us take for granted.

Currently, there is a Senedd petition under way on the matter with over 4,500 signatures, calling for a review of additional learning needs in schools and a substantial increase in support for the children struggling with such needs. The demand for the support is out there, and we as elected representatives must listen. It is therefore vital that the Labour Government undertakes an urgent review of this implementation of ALN reforms, take urgent action to identify and provide access to support for children with ALN, and provide additional financial support directly to Welsh schools to ensure that learners with ALN can access the support they need. Diolch yn fawr.    

I'll keep my contribution brief during this debate, knowing that the Children, Young People and Education Committee are currently in the process of evidence gathering for our inquiry into equal access to education and childcare for disabled children and young people.

During my time in education, I worked with children and young people with additional learning needs. I understand how difficult it has been in the past not only for the children and young people, but for their families and for their schools, whether it be trying to obtain a statement or a lengthy process of trying to put together the best possible package of learning and care, which, as we all know, can be extremely difficult.

I really am hoping the new ALN Act will help alleviate some of these frustrations for parents, teachers and our young people. From the ground, I’m told individual development plans are a huge step in the right direction. But we know there’s work still to do and communication still to be had for consistency.

I have close links with the schools in my constituency and I’m going to ensure I am regularly updated on the progress of the new ALN first-hand. I have a survey open for Rhondda residents who wish to share their experience to date, and I’d like to say an enormous thank you to the 60 plus parents and guardians who’ve completed the survey so far. Your voices will be heard, and your experience will help create future positive experiences. I know the Minister is prepared to listen and work with you to get this right. Diolch.

The Minister for Education now to contribute to the debate. Jeremy Miles. 

Thank you, Llywydd. Alongside the Curriculum for Wales, the intention of our ALN system is to ensure that every learner that needs additional learning provision has support that is planned appropriately, and that this is consistent across Wales. I can give that commitment to Alun Davies—I share his passion on the need to ensure that, and also to ensure that every child and young person has access to the best possible education, and is inspired, encouraged and supported to achieve his or her full potential. 

I welcome the opportunity today to inform you about the significant progress that's been made in implementing the additional learning needs legislation despite the pressures—that is the reality of the situation. The Estyn annual report demonstrates that providers welcome the changes. There is a good understanding of additional learning needs among the staff that lead on it. Professional learning and the work of establishing new statutory roles has been welcomed. Practices that focus on the individual are put in place across education.

Recent research on the Curriculum for Wales demonstrates that it allows senior leaders to promote and to focus on inclusion for learners with additional learning needs as well as vulnerable learners to a greater extent than the previous curriculum, at a time when that, of course, is crucially important. In order to respond to the pressures of work facing schools and settings, and particularly additional learning needs co-ordinators, I recently extended the timetable for the implementation of the ALN reforms for a year in order to allow further flexibility—[Interruption.]

Yes. 

Thank you. This whole journey started 20 years ago, when I was a member of the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee, and I'd just, with my wife, fought a battle to get a statement for one of my children. So I've been there, done it, and know exactly what this is about. But last week, at their request, I met a teaching union. I haven't got the authority to identify them—I'll just say it's a major teaching union. And one of the things they said—I'd ask you how you respond to this statement by them; it's only a very brief quote—was, 'It's imperative that the Welsh Government conduct an urgent review of the impact of increased workload on all educational staff. Additional learning needs co-ordinators, classroom teachers and teaching assistants are all impacted by the failure to invest appropriately in the ALN reforms'. 

I thank Mark Isherwood for that intervention. We are currently looking at that particular issue of teacher workload, particularly among ALN co-ordinators. I don't know which union made these comments, but I'm certain that they will be involved with that work, and that will report back to us at the end of this year so that we can see whether we need to respond in alternative ways to what we hear as a result of that important review. 

The Conservative motion actually quotes the NAHT, the National Association of Head Teachers Cymru, on funding. If the Conservatives have had recent discussions with that union, they will know full well that the Westminster Government, unfortunately, continue to underfund public services significantly, and this, of course, has a detrimental impact on schools in all parts of the UK and on broader services too. The motion calls for more funding specifically to support ALN reforms. This is exactly what we've delivered by increasing the ALN implementation grant this year from £6.6 million to £12 million, and, over the past three years, over £62 million of revenue funding alone has been made available to help schools to create more capacity and time to deliver across whole-school settings. Over £12 million is being used to help schools to deliver well-being interventions, to give training to staff—we've heard of the importance of that today—and to ensure that child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, are available within schools. And £9.1 million of funding has also been maintained to respond to social and emotional issues facing learners with additional learning needs.

I am entirely convinced that the quality of an education system depends entirely on the quality of its workforce. I am very proud of the committed workforce that we have here in Wales and its commitment to continue to learn and improve. We've developed a professional learning pathway on additional learning needs so that teachers and other practitioners can develop their skills to support learners with additional learning needs. Eighty-four teachers are developing ALN skills further through a national Master's degree programme in education. School leaders and ALN co-ordinators share experiences and effective practice through the National Academy for Educational Leadership's reforms programme. Introducing an additional in-service education and training day will be an opportunity for the profession to develop its skills further.

The motion also calls for a review of how the Act has been implemented, and many Members have mentioned this. I agree that there is value to this. That is why Estyn is holding a thematic review of the implementation of the ALN reforms this year, with a report to come in September 2023. This is in addition to the information arising from Estyn's regular cycle of inspection and review.

A formative evaluation of the additional learning needs system is taking place, and it will assess the effectiveness of the implementation process, identify barriers or elements that are effective, and note any expected results of the new system. We expect to publish the early findings by the end of November of this year.

We are listening to the views of parents of learners with additional learning needs or disabilities by funding events for parents and carers through SNAP Cymru across the country. Over 300 people, from all parts of Wales, have attended these events to date, and it provides a means of raising awareness about the reforms and to get feedback.

The motion mentions a reduction in the numbers receiving support. I don't accept that. The annual pupil census data is an important source of monitoring information, and recent analysis shows that the total number of children who are present recognised as having additional learning needs or special educational needs is reducing. But the reduction in numbers does not mean that the learners aren't getting the right support. After all, these are not just numbers on a page; they relate to individual pupils with specific needs.

During the autumn of last year, at our request, Estyn held a brief thematic review of the implementation process, which noted a significant reduction in the number of pupils who were recorded as having additional learning needs. Generally speaking, Estyn noted that the ongoing progress of pupils was monitored appropriately in many schools and that they continue to receive targeted support that was appropriate. We expect this trend to continue, perhaps, as children with special educational needs at the operational, schools level, are supported by differentiated methods of teaching and inclusive approaches. The number of learners with ALN could then start to rise to reflect the increasing number of learners who have complex needs.

Heledd Fychan and others mentioned a bilingual system, and we do need to ensure that this is available in all parts of Wales. I have ensured that the planning provision for Welsh-medium ALN is a key part of the WESPs. By the autumn, we will have our national ALN Welsh language lead in place, and we will continue, through Adnodd, to create Welsh-medium resources to help with teaching and learning the curriculum, and to identify and commission resources that will provide better support for learners with additional learning needs. I am confident, Llywydd, that our reforms to the curriculum and additional learning needs continue to redefine and to deliver our ambition for an inclusive education system.

Tom Giffard to reply to the debate.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd, and can I thank all Members of the Senedd that have participated in this debate today and for the interesting range of perspectives that we've heard from across the Chamber? I think the fact that so many individual Members wanted to speak in this debate does show that this is an issue that touches all of us, and something that a lot of us will come across either from personal experience or in terms of acting on behalf of our constituents. As somebody who has worked in this sector before—I was, as many of you will know, a one-to-one learning support assistant for a young child with ALN—I know the difference that that particular provision can make. Laura Anne Jones started by saying that ALN provision benefits everyone in the classroom, not just those that require that specific ALN support, which is all the more reason why we need to get this right. And I thank the Minister for his response, and I think there was praise from across the Chamber for the ALN provision that has been taken so far, the changes that have been made so far. And, as Hefin David reminded us, we've come a long way, I think, in our understanding of learning support needs and so on over the years. I think it was 1970 you gave the reference from, and I'm very thankful we're not there today.

Paul Davies made reference to a petition, which is live at the moment, by Clare-Anna Mitchell. Many, I think, of my Labour colleagues will know Clare-Anna Mitchell, who was a Labour candidate in the last council elections in Swansea, which shows that this is not a party political message we're trying to get across here; this is something that really matters and is very important to people, and that petition, which was gathering signatures as I was sitting here watching this debate, kind of shows, hopefully, that we've made some convincing arguments that have got more people to sign that particular petition. But a lot of what we're calling for in our motion today—reviewing those additional learning needs policies, and making understanding, in terms of our teachers and our teaching assistants, in terms of what to look for, what to spot, and how to help people with ALN—.

Alun Davies said that the purpose of the legislation was to move away from that specific need for a diagnosis, and I think that's a point he made well, but James Evans stated that that wasn't something that's uniformly the case across the country. Jenny Rathbone suggested that the onus needs to be moved onto schools, that they need to be responsible for their pupils. I agree; they are absolutely responsible, and I think that's a responsibility they take very seriously. But, obviously, these schools exist within the framework set for them by the Welsh Government, where, as James Evans said, the funding follows the diagnosis, and with thousands waiting for diagnosis—and Buffy Williams mentioned that that can take a lot of time—schools then need to find that in the interim from existing budgets, which can create tensions for schools as well.

Alun Davies, Altaf Hussain and Darren Millar all mentioned the inconsistency of approach, I think, from local authority to local authority, sometimes even from school to school, in terms of the implementation of some of these things. That will not, again, have been the intention of the legislation, hence the need for our motion today. And action needs to be taken now to ensure that no child misses out, particularly no child misses out regardless of the language that they want to be taught in, as Heledd Fychan, I think, put really well at the beginning of her contribution introducing the Plaid Cymru amendment, which we'll be supporting. Because if Welsh language is something that belongs to all of us, we need to truly mean that, and that goes for everybody, whether you require that ALN support or not. So, I really hope that what our motion today is calling for is not something, as I say, that's hugely party political; it's something that I think encompasses a lot of the concerns we've heard across the Chamber today—that there's a lot of praise for what's happened already, but it is not consistent and it needs another look at to, hopefully, get it right, because if we get this truly right, it'll make a transformational change. So, I hope you'll back our motion today.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is an objection, therefore, we'll defer the vote until voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will proceed directly to voting time.

The vote this afternoon is on item 7, which is the debate that we've just had—[Interruption.] Yes, okay, I'll come to that in a moment. Item 7 is the Welsh Conservative debate on additional learning needs. We will call for a vote on the motion without amendment first of all. So, I open the vote on the motion without amendment, in the name of Darren Millar.

I'll take an oral vote from Mabon ap Gwynfor. How do you vote, Mabon, on the motion without amendment? Mabon ap Gwynfor's vote has been submitted. I'll close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 34 against. Therefore, the motion without amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 1 is next, and if amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. So, a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, no abstentions, 23 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed, and amendment 2 is deselected.

So, a vote finally on the motion—. No, I apologise, there is an amendment 3. The next vote is on amendment 3. Open the vote on amendment 3, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Close the vote. In favour 49, no abstentions, none against. Therefore, amendment 3 is agreed.

The final vote, therefore, is on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 49, no abstentions, none against. The motion as amended is therefore agreed. That brings us to the end of voting time.

We will move on to the short debate. Today's short debate is from Delyth Jewell and I call on Delyth Jewell to speak on the topic she has chosen for the short debate.

And if Members who are leaving could do so quietly. 

Diolch, Llywydd. My debate this evening is about the inequalities relating to cancer diagnoses, treatment and outcomes in Wales. And I'm pleased to be giving John Griffiths, Joel James, Heledd Fychan, Mark Isherwood, Rhun ap Iorwerth and Jack Sargeant a minute each of my time.

I'm indebted to Cancer Research UK and the cross-party group on cancer, and their 'All Things Being Equal?' report.

Poverty is a driving force in determining whether you get cancer, how quickly you'll receive treatment, and your chances around survival. I wanted to bring this debate to the Senedd because of the brutal inequalities that so many of the areas I represent in the Valleys have always had to grapple with. These are inequalities visited on people, which are the legacy of a lack of investment in our communities over decades, which have complex, often unpredictable effects. When the mines closed, they left behind a trail of injustice, which can be traced right through to the increased prevalence of respiratory disease affecting people today, the mental health burdens and lack of faith in public systems that can deter people from seeking help, and an absence of investment in jobs and support services, which leave residents more likely to fall through the gaps. So, let's start with the incidence of cancer in these areas.

As the CPG report makes clear, if you live in an area that is more deprived of economic and social resources, you are more likely to get cancer. Some of the reasons for this are social, including higher rates of smoking and obesity. Then there are barriers that stand in between residents and support services. Research suggests that people who live in the areas I've mentioned will be less likely to get time off to go to medical appointments. They will be less likely to have private transport, leaving them at the mercy of often unreliable bus services. Where someone is from shouldn't limit their life in such a literal way as this. I am so proud, Dirprwy Lywydd, to be from the Valleys, and it makes me deeply angry that so many unfairnesses are faced by the communities I'm from through no fault of their own.

Data gleaned by Cancer Research UK from 2020-21 shows a deprivation gap in the uptake for cancer screening, a 19 percentage point gap for breast screening, a 15 percentage point gap for bowel screening, a 12 percentage point gap for cervical screening—and again, that is the gap between the most and least deprived groups in Wales. Now, that word 'deprived', I know that it has a very specific socio-scientific meaning. It has connotations I don't like very much, but I'm using it because it's the word that the data relates to, and I would remind anyone who has a similar discomfort about those connotations to reflect with me on the fact that 'deprivation' means taking something away from a person. People living in our areas have been prevented from living safer lives, and I find that monstrously unfair.

I know from Cancer Research UK about the variation in performance between health boards, and I want to make clear here that my remarks are not meant as a criticism of members of staff, who I know care deeply and work incredibly hard to look after people when they're at their most vulnerable. But for all the reasons that we will be discussing in this debate, people living in some communities in Wales face these increased risks. For Cwm Taf, the incidence rate for all cancers combined is 8 per cent higher than the rest of Wales. Lung cancer rates are 20 per cent higher than the Wales average. So many factors will feed into why this picture is so stark. Again, this isn't a question of laying blame at anyone's door. It's about understanding why the different pieces come together to make up that picture.

Barriers to services, like whether people can get to appointments, can be affected by travel and work issues, as I've already talked about. And some cancer treatment regimes are demanding. The Welsh cancer patient experience survey found that people living in some areas are more concerned about the distance they need to travel to get to a hospital. And what about when you've had the diagnosis? Waiting times for treatment can also be worse if you happen to live in one of these areas. In March 2023, NHS cancer waiting times showed that only 55.3 per cent of patients started their first treatment within 62 days of first being suspected of having cancer. That is the highest performance since the beginning of 2023. It is still far below the performance target for suspected cancer pathways, which aims for 75 per cent. It's a target that hasn't been met.

NHS diagnostic and therapy service waiting times show that, again in March this year, roughly 91,400 patients were waiting for one of seven key diagnostic tests in Wales. Nearly 40 per cent of those patients had been waiting for more than eight weeks. With cancer, possibly more than almost any other diagnosis, I think it's important for us to remember what those waiting times will mean. We're brought up to dread that diagnosis—a lot of the time because we don't understand enough about survival rates, and things are improving with research all the time. But the shorthand we have is that cancer is something that will get you, which is why so many people are too scared to ask for help. And if people, after making that leap and asking for help, which is so important—and people, please, should always ask for help if they've got any symptoms that they're not sure about; it's always best to ask for help—but, if after making that leap, if they have to wait for eight weeks to get an answer, then, they're in this kind of hellish limbo where they'll be expecting the worst, because that's human nature, before they can get any answers, before they can start on the journey to start to get better. Now, these waiting times prolong people's pain. The human cost of waiting times is, I think, incalculable, because you can't quantify the hurt that's made.

None of what I'm saying is meant as a criticism of either front-line staff or Government; it's meant as a plea, because I've lost people I love through cancer; everyone who sits in this Chamber will have done. This is a subject that nobody will look on coldly—I know that. 

Some of the questions I'd like to ask the Minister, please, to consider are whether the Government can commit to an annual report to the Senedd on the Welsh Government's efforts to tackle cancer inequalities in Wales. I'd ask whether, in implementing the cancer improvement plan, the Wales Cancer Network can set out how new initiatives can either help reduce these inequalities, or set out what needs to happen to make sure that these inequalities certainly don't get worse. I'd ask whether the Government and Public Health Wales will commit to awareness-raising campaigns, perhaps particularly targeted at these groups that need that exposure most of all, which would seek to tackle the risk factors that make people more exposed to risk of cancer, and campaigns that also address the barriers that prevent so many people from making that leap, either to go into a screening or go into an appointment. 

When it comes to the transport issues I've raised, I'd be grateful to know if an urgent review into patient transport options for cancer tests and treatment could be conducted. There are wonderful initiatives already like that, run by Cancer Aid Merthyr Tydfil Ltd, that provide a free, door-to-door transport service to attend cancer appointments. It's a long way from Merthyr Tydfil to Velindre, for example, and they provide this service, which is a godsend. Could a review look into how initiatives like that could be enhanced or supported, please, and would you commit to expanding existing targets for cancer screening, so that they include targets for improving uptake in the groups that are less likely to take part?

I'm grateful to the Minister, I'm grateful to everyone who's going to be speaking, and indeed, everyone who's going to be part of this debate. And, in my remaining few minutes, before I wait to hear what everyone else says in this debate, I would just emphasise again that I know that this is an issue that affects—. Each one of us will have at least one story that will have affected us deeply. Some of us will have had personal experience of this. I know that it is something that everyone wants to get right. So, this is, really, a plea, in a very cross-party way, and I welcome hearing more in the debate. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

I'd like to thank Delyth Jewell very much for allowing me to contribute to this very important short debate today, and to congratulate Delyth on the way that she presented the case so effectively and powerfully. I'd like, as Chair of the cross-party group on smoking and health, Dirprwy Lywydd, to concentrate on smoking, which Delyth mentioned, because we know it's a very significant factor in terms of more deprived communities smoking at a greater rate. In fact, I think the last statistics show that smoking rates are four times higher in the most deprived communities compared to the least deprived. And over 2,000 cancer cases annually in Wales are attributed to deprivation, with almost half of them being linked to lung cancer. So, it's pretty clear just how important smoking, lung cancer and other diseases from smoking are to health inequalities. 

And what we need to do, I think, as well as addressing the multidimensional factors that Delyth mentioned, which are very complex—and, obviously, anything that is done across Welsh Government to tackle deprivation will help tackle these health inequalities, including lung cancer—we also need to improve services and target them more effectively at our more deprived communities. Anything that drives down smoking rates, generally, will help, but anything that particularly targets our more deprived communities and smoking rates will be particularly helpful. And I think we all know about that inverse law that means that, in general—as Delyth again touched upon—those communities with the greatest health needs tend to receive lesser services, and that's something that we must tackle, if we're going to make the sort of progress that we must in tackling these matters.

I'd like to start by thanking my colleague Delyth Jewell for giving me a minute of her time to talk about such a vital topic. In the few moments that I have, I would like to address one specific recommendation of the CPG report, and that is the increasing need for Welsh Government to work with Public Health Wales and the Wales Cancer Network, to commit to the collection and publication of data on cancer inequalities, including ethnicity, age, gender, sexual orientation and disability.

The CPG's report was limited to socioeconomic deprivation, because this was the only data available. This is not good enough. We need more thorough data collection, because it is the only way we can really improve the understanding of the needs of cancer sufferers and the impact it has on their lives. Moreover, we need to improve our understanding of the factors that influence cancer outcomes. I truly believe that relatively small interventions can be made at key points on a cancer sufferer's journey that will have significant improvements in their outcomes and welfare. But these will remain out of reach until we properly understand all aspects of cancer sufferers' lives. As such, for the Welsh Government, the NHS Wales Executive, Wales Cancer Network and health boards to continue tackling cancer inequalities, I ask that the Welsh Government takes seriously this recommendation and commits to working with Public Health Wales and the Wales Cancer Network on better collection of data on cancer inequalities in Wales. It is only with more comprehensive data that we'll be able to properly address cancer inequalities and ensure that the experiences of the most marginalised groups are equal. Thank you.

May I sincerely thank Delyth Jewell? As Delyth mentioned, we have all known people who were too late in getting their diagnosis, unfortunately. The inequality—there are so many people who don't want to be a nuisance, they ignore the symptoms. And it can be very difficult, as you outlined, if you don't have access to public transport— you're reliant on a family member to take you just because something doesn't feel quite right. Or, many of those people in our communities who live alone, they don't have money to pay for a taxi where there is no public transport available. This is an equalities issue—that equality of access to medical services, if you can get through to the surgery, and then that you do get that necessary diagnosis. In the area that I represent—you mentioned Cwm Taf Morgannwg—there are so many inequalities in that area; people dying needlessly at the moment. The science continues to improve, but we must send a clear message: people aren't being a nuisance if they go to their GP; don't ignore the symptoms; and everyone has a right to go to their GP. Hopefully, we can make it clear that you do need to go to your GP, if you have symptoms.

I also thank Delyth Jewell for allowing me to contribute to this short debate. It was concerning to learn further about the barriers that those from deprived communities may face during their cancer journey, most importantly, when identifying the signs and symptoms of cancer. Recognising these is critical to seeking help from a GP, getting an early diagnosis and starting treatment, where any delays can have a detrimental impact on health outcomes. In light of this, I urge the health Minister to consider the report's recommendation to expand existing cancer awareness campaigns, specifically target the most deprived communities in Wales. Can Welsh Government commit to investing in regular cancer awareness campaigns to address the barriers to diagnosis that those from most deprived communities face? And will Welsh Government work with Public Health Wales to ensure a roll-out of targeted symptom awareness campaigns, to ensure that those from the most deprived communities in Wales are not left behind?

May I thank Delyth for giving a little of her time in this short debate? I'll take just a few seconds, and I want to thank the cross-party group on cancer for their report on the inequalities within diagnosis and cancer treatment. 

Reading the report brings the scandal alive, doesn't it—that profound inequality that exists between life chances and the chances of survival of people from privileged communities and backgrounds as opposed to those from deprived backgrounds. The mortality rate in deprived areas is 55 per cent higher than in wealthier areas—55 per cent higher. We need to talk about this. We need to shout about this. We need to implement a policy that ensures that that awful truth becomes part of our history, rather than our present in Wales in the twenty-first century.

I'm extremely grateful to Delyth for allowing me to do this. I just wanted to take the time to raise the gynaecological cancers inquiry the Health and Social Care Committee are currently undertaking, in particular, the evidence we heard from cancer patient Claire O'Shea—so brave, so powerful, so inspirational. And I keep coming back—and Rhun will be aware of this—to this word of 'medical gaslighting', and it's an issue that we have to address. I would urge Members to go and look at Claire's Instagram—she's documenting her journey. And we as a committee must listen to those patients' experiences, make recommendations on the back of them, and I do hope—. I know the Minister can't answer this now, but, when we do report our committee report, and lay that down to the Government, I hope they listen and implement those actions and experiences, because the experience of Claire O'Shea and patients like her is simply incredible, and it's so brave of her to come forward like that.

I now call on the Health and Social Services Minister to respond to the debate—Eluned Morgan.

Diolch yn fawr. I'd like to thank Delyth Jewell for tabling this short debate on cancer and inequality, and, in particular, thanks to the cross-party group for its work on the 'All Things Being Equal?' report. I know that the deputy chief medical officer attended the launch of the report on 8 June, and we're really giving careful considerations to its recommendations.

I think it's really important that we focus on the issue, and it doesn't sit comfortably with me that where people live, their circumstances, their age, their race, their gender, that that can all have a significant impact on their chances of getting cancer and surviving cancer. Now, in 2015, the chief medical officer wrote extensively in his annual report, 'Rebalancing Healthcare', about how we must work in partnership to reduce social inequality and, in particular, its effect on health outcomes. I've spent a lot of time talking to Sir Michael Marmot about his views on health inequalities. I think we also recognise the importance of this in our policy that already has been developed, in terms of the quality statement for cancer, which includes as its first domain the issue of equity in cancer care and, importantly, outcome.

So, we expect NHS services to be planned and delivered in a way that mitigates these inequalities. The NHS response to the quality statement, the cancer improvement plan, is framed throughout by a focus on inequality. Now, a newly established NHS health inequalities group will focus on a small number of areas that aim to maximise the contribution of the NHS and seek to make the NHS an exemplar. The group is tasked to oversee, co-ordinate and drive work at the national level to tackle health inequalities. It will include identifying and scaling up best practice to maximise impact. Priority areas include reviewing data sets and taking action to respond to gaps, along with mainstreaming. So, the point that was brought up by Joel James about data, I absolutely concur with—data, data, data. We need to know what's going on, and I'm very much of the view that data is absolutely crucial in this space.

Health boards have also got a responsibility for their populations, and, under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, have duties to address the determinants of health over the long term. So, lots of people talked about smoking. Obesity, actually, is also a real issue when it comes to increasing the risks of cancer. Health boards work with local authorities through regional partnership boards to tackle these cross-sectoral issues. Now, the socioeconomic duty also requires specified public bodies to consider how their decisions might help to reduce the inequalities associated with socioeconomic disadvantage when making strategic decisions, such as deciding priorities and setting objectives. The Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 also embeds health in all policy approach across Welsh Government, and there is work already under way to develop regulations under the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017, which will require specified public bodies to carry out a health impact assessment in certain circumstances. This is truly innovative. It's something I know that the World Health Organization is really interested in, in seeing how that changes things in Wales, how that focus that we're anxious to see across Government and outside of Government actually works in practice. 

We are taking a number of steps at a national level to cover the factors that have an influence on people's health: for example, Flying Start; the steps to tackle poor housing and air pollution; our employability programme; and our plans to tackle tobacco use and obesity. We've published an anti-racism and an LGBTQ+ action plan, which aim to tackle the inequalities faced by these groups. This is a comprehensive set of programmes across our public services and health services, and that is over the long term, to give attention to the factors that can cause disease and illness such as cancer. It's important that we do everything we can to prevent cancer among our most deprived communities, and that is what will have the greatest impact in tackling the inequalities within health. 

Smoking and obesity, as many have mentioned, are the main factors that cause cancer and are preventable. So, clearly, many people develop cancer and they don't smoke and they're not obese, so there are a range of reasons as to why people are affected by cancer, but we know that rates increase where those are factors. 

Part of the reason that we're seeing more cases of cancer and fewer people surviving in some of our deprived communities is the link between being deprived and harmful behaviour, such as smoking. So, smoking cessation is the most positive step that people can take to improve their health, and we have seen significant progress in reducing smoking rates across Wales. But we know that more needs to be done if we are to deliver our ambitions here in Wales. We have taken steps to make being smoke-free the norm in all parts of society, and we are focused on reducing smoking among mothers, because we do want to see more children and young people enjoying a smoke-free childhood. We're also targeting groups where the highest numbers of people are smokers in order to encourage them to take advantage of the NHS services that are there to support and help them. 

There will also be a need for us to support people to reach a healthy weight. Tackling inequalities in health will continue to be a crucial focus for us. And just to touch upon some of the points that people have raised during the debate—

Delyth, thank you for being so passionate and so powerful in your presentation. I think this report is something that we're going to have to take very seriously, and I'm very aware that it is important to have awareness-raising campaigns. Very interesting, the work that organisations like the Moondance Cancer Initiative is doing, targeting those deprived areas. I hear what you're saying in terms of transport. So, what we're going to see is a concentration. Because of the issues around things like workforce and the fact that kit is expensive, we're going to see a concentration in particular areas, and people will have to travel to those areas. But what I do recognise is that we have to make sure, in particular for those people from poorer areas, that they've got a means of getting there. As you say, there are some really good initiatives; we just need to make sure that those initiatives are available across the country.

John, I know you're very passionate about the issue of smoking, and thank you for your points that you've put forward in relation to that. Lung cancer—interestingly, we've started on this project targeting lung cancer, because lung cancer, the problem with it is that very often you don't see it until quite late, and, when you see it, it's very difficult to tackle. Now we've got this liquid biopsy approach that we're trying to look at, and I'm just really interested to see what that pilot is going to come up with, to see if there's more we can do in that space.

Heledd, you talked also about the trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus. I just think we've got to be absolutely aware that this is something, as I tried to set out, that is very much on our agenda. And Jack, thank you very much for your reference, again, to Claire O'Shea. I recognise that it's really important for us to really focus on this area. There is a real issue with women's cancer. I've asked my officials to really focus on that. I'm aware you're doing a report on it, I'm looking forward to seeing the recommendations of that report, but I'm not waiting for the report, because, for every day that people wait, that is a problem for somebody who's suffering. So, we're on it, we're trying to work with it. We are challenged at the moment; there's no question that the NHS in Wales is massively challenged, but there is a particular problem with women's cancer, and I'm very, very keen to make sure that we do something to address that. Diolch.

I thank the Minister. And, as the chair of the cross-party group on cancer, I'd like to thank you, Delyth, for sharing this very important report and debate.

And that brings today's proceedings to a close.