National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Luke Fletcher. 

I thank the Member for that question, Llywydd. The Welsh Government's commitment to ending homelessness remains unwavering at all times of the year. Our total investment in homelessness prevention and housing support is over £197 million this year, helping ensure no-one is left without the support or the accommodation they need. 

Dioch, Prif Weinidog. It hasn't been that long since homelessness services were confronted by a nightmare scenario during the pandemic, and here they are again confronting another one. I'd like to highlight the case of Keith, a constituent in Maesteg, who recently got in touch for help as he and his wife are in crisis situation after recently receiving a section 21 notice, the deadline of which passed in November. They now face the prospect of a winter looking for accommodation that has disability access, whilst dealing with multiple and complex needs. But given the magnitude of the current situation, and given that there are roughly 25,000 empty properties here in Wales, is it now time for a Government national action plan on empty properties to help prevent distressing cases like Keith's in the future?

Well, Llywydd, to be threatened with homelessness at any time of the year is enormously stressful, as anybody in this Chamber who does casework regularly will know. But to be faced with that over the Christmas period, when you're fearful that services may not be available, is even more challenging, I'm sure, for anybody. There are two aspects to this, Llywydd, of course. There is the demand on the one side, and demand in the system has risen inexorably over this calendar year. In January, 1,100 people presented themselves to local authorities as threatened with or actually being homeless. It rose to 1,200 in February, to 1,300 in March. It was 1,400 by August, 1,500 in September, and I believe that the next set of figures will see it rise to over 1,600. These are huge surges in demand that make it even more difficult for local authorities to discharge their responsibilities, and part of the answer to that has to be to increase the supply of affordable housing. We have a commitment of 20,000 low-carbon homes for social rent during this Senedd term. We are acting to invest £65 million in transitional accommodation, by including £30 million of that in the area of Wales represented by Luke Fletcher, as a £30 million investment in a leasing scheme for Wales, but, also—and it's an important point the Member makes—the investment we are making in assisting local authorities to bring empty homes back into use. And there are some very significant examples of that around Wales—an outstanding one in Pembrokeshire and the area represented by our colleague Paul Davies, where the local authority, with support from the Welsh Government, was able to bring a large number of Ministry of Defence properties back into use for the general population. And the work done in Valleys communities, led my colleague Lee Waters, is another example of how we can, alongside our local authorities, invest in making sure that houses that otherwise stand empty can be brought back into beneficial use. 

Can I first of all join you, First Minister, in giving credit to those local authorities for the work they do already in looking to prevent homelessness, but recognise the challenge that they have at the moment, particularly over this Christmas period? As we know, there are around 14,000 people in Wales currently in temporary accommodation, and in evidence-taking through the Local Government and Housing Committee recently, councils and council leaders, whilst recognising that funding is part of that challenge—as you've pointed out already—talked about the lack of housing supply that they're finding particularly challenging at the moment. And you mentioned the ambition to deliver those 20,000 low-carbon social homes, but there are barriers at the moment that developers are facing to deliver on those homes, and one of those is around the phosphate regulations. And there's an example in my region of north Wales where, in a field on the English side of the border, new social houses are being built, and in a field on the Welsh side of the border, those houses aren't able to be built because of the phosphate regulations that are there. So, people in Wales are not having the houses built that are required for them. So, I wonder, First Minister, what action you will be taking to accelerate this ambition to deliver on those homes, rather than us standing here again, in two and three years' time, talking about the homelessness challenge that faces us.

Well, the phosphates issue is a genuine one, Llywydd. I was able to meet the major players in this area at the Royal Welsh Show earlier this year, and there's a follow-up meeting with all of those players planned for early in the new year. That is to make sure that all those organisations that have a part to play in resolving the phosphates issue are able to do that, and that nobody spends their time pointing the finger at somebody else and saying, 'If only they did something, then this problem could be solved'. Now, the spirit at the meeting in Llanelwedd was much better than that; I thought people did come genuinely looking to advance the things that lay within their own responsibility. What the answer cannot be, Llywydd, is to allow house building to happen in places without a plan to make sure that that house building does not add to the already excessive levels of pollution in rivers in Wales. The pollution crisis that we face in some parts of Wales is absolutely real, and we can't make that worse in order to make something else better. But we know that if every organisation makes its contribution, it is possible to go on developing new houses on land that otherwise would not be available for that purpose, but it does depend, as I say, on collecting together all those different contributions and unlocking the current barriers that exist to developments that we would like to see go ahead.

First Minister, I was wondering whether you'd made an assessment of the half-year results of the Development Bank of Wales, and, in particular, its investment in housing projects, including the leasehold support scheme, which will secure new long-term properties for rent by local authorities, in turn helping to prevent homelessness.

Llywydd, I thank Ken Skates for that question. I remember very vividly a visit that he and I made to the headquarters of the Development Bank of Wales in Wrexham, and it has been one of the outstanding success stories of the last decade. The half-year results, as Ken Skates says, were published in the last week or so. They show a continuing strong trend in direct investment that the bank is able to make, but also the way in which the bank is able to mobilise alongside it other investments from private sources. One of the areas in which the bank has been able to use financial transaction capital, for example, has, as Ken Skates said, been in the leasing scheme. Now, the leasing scheme is a very important part of increasing that supply of housing for rent that other colleagues here have mentioned this afternoon. It allows local authorities to take on properties that are otherwise in the private rented sector, and to invest in the conditions of those homes so that they can be let not just for the short run, but to the medium and long-term run, adding to the supply of affordable social rented homes in those areas. And the role that the Development Bank of Wales has played in allowing that to happen has been an additional string to the bow that it exercises in any case through Help to Buy and other parts of the housing landscape, where the bank's actions have been very important in sustaining that sector during challenging times.

I thank the Member for that. Llywydd, results from the 2021 census have started to be released, but key information, such as that on housing tenure, is yet to be published. The full picture will be used, for example, into strengthening the next 'Future Trends' report, which is a key requirement of the Well-being of Future Generations Act (Wales) 2015.

Thank you. Now, according to the latest census results we've seen, 55.2 per cent of people selected a Welsh-only identity in Wales in 2021, and that's a decrease from 57.5 per cent in 2011. Meanwhile, 18.5 per cent of people selected a British-only identity, which saw an increase from 16.9 per cent in 2011. However, the number of people selecting both Welsh and British identities also rose to 8.1 per cent in 2021, which was an increase from 7.1 per cent in 2011. Now, this does stand directly in contrast to your comments at the Welsh Affairs Committee, where you seemed to suggest that, somehow, British identity was on the decline and Welsh-only identity was increasing. The increase in people holding both Welsh and British national identity, recorded by the latest census over the past decade, actually now shows the strength and affection that people have for our centuries old union. People are clearly proud to be both Welsh and British, and they want to see— 

Can we address the question to the First Minister, rather than to your colleagues on your own benches? So, can we have the question, please, Janet Finch-Saunders? 

—and we want to see a strong Wales in a strong United Kingdom. First Minister, will you make clear to your governing comrades over in Plaid Cymru that people have had enough of their divisive push for independence and that they want us to focus on the issues that really matter to the people of Wales? 

Look, I'm sorry—

Will you stand up for our United Kingdom? [Interruption.]

Well drafted by whoever drafted it. 

Well, Llywydd, the identity question in the census is a very interesting one, and the results that it shows, I think, are definitely worth proper exploration. Now, why do we see some of the changes that the Member referred to? Well, we know that the number of deaths over the last decade exceeded the number of births that took place in Wales. So, the growth in the population in Wales comes exclusively from people who have not been living in Wales moving into Wales. Twenty-three thousand more people born in England were recorded as living in Wales in the 2021 census than as in 2011. They're very, very heavily concentrated in two local authorities in Wales: they live in Flintshire and they live in Newport. In other words, they live right by the border, and they're people whose lives are fluid, living in one place, working in another, and it's no surprise, therefore, that they bring that sense of their identity with them. I think those figures are worth serious debate. I would say that they reinforce what this party—my party—has always believed, that what people in Wales benefit from is strong devolution, with the capacity of this Senedd to make decisions on the things that affect only people in Wales, but benefit as well from being in the United Kingdom. That's always been the policy of my party, and I'm very happy to reinforce it again this afternoon. 

The Welsh language belongs to all of us, but the recent census results have given us cause for concern. The example of the Welsh language has long been a beacon of hope for minority languages across the world for many years. It's the subject of hope, and, amongst the clamours of dismay about these figures, I want to understand how the Welsh Government will succeed in offering new hope and acting on it. Raymond Williams said that, 

'to be truly radical is to make hope possible, rather than despair convincing'.

This turning point must be a light in the dark and turn goodwill into determination. Our old language must survive. How will you make the language’s survival not only possible, but inevitable?

Of course, I agree with the comments made by Raymond Williams, and that's why, having seen the figures in the census, we are still confident about the future of the language here in Wales, and that's important. I acknowledge what Delyth Jewell said about people losing confidence when they initially saw the figures. But, having had time to consider the census results and to see that comparison between what's in the census and what's in the figures that we gather annually, then I think there's something important to pursue there. That's why I've taken the opportunity to speak with those responsible for statistics within the Welsh Government, and, having done that, I will write to Sir Ian Diamond, who chairs the ONS, which is responsible for the census, to ask them to carry out a piece of work alongside us in order to see what's behind those figures that we saw published last week and the figures that the ONS has published year on year now, which identify a growth in the use of the Welsh language. In doing that, then I do think that we can learn some lessons to see what more we can do to give people confidence here in Wales to use the Welsh language and to develop the use of the Welsh language and the numbers who are able to speak Welsh in future.

Questions now from the party leaders. Leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Could I, Presiding Officer, wish you and the First Minister and all Members a very merry Christmas and hopefully a peaceful and happy new year?

Yesterday, First Minister, the health Minister met with the Royal College of Nursing and other unions in relation to the pending strike action that is proposed for Thursday of this week and next week. As I understand it, no offer was made at that meeting to try and resolve the pending strike action so that hospitals could function and people could get the appointments that they require. Why was no offer submitted to try and resolve this dispute?

There is no money in the Welsh Government budget from his Government in London to allow us to make a better offer than funding in full, as we have, the pay award proposed by the independent pay award body.

First Minister, you have the levers to actually generate more money if you choose to pull those levers. You have additional money coming in the announcement that the Chancellor made in his recent announcement of £1.2 billion coming forward over the next two years. You have taken a political choice not to resolve or at least enter meaningful discussions by not tabling any offer whatsoever yesterday, as the general secretary of the Royal College of Nursing highlighted in her statement this morning. 

I can hear your backbenchers whingeing and moaning; they are the ones who pressed the button in a debate only two weeks ago to deny the nurses a pay increase to meet the cost of living. You have the means to do it, will you re-engage in those negotiations and use those levers to put a meaningful proposal to the Royal College of Nursing and other medical professions to avoid the strike action?

The leader of the opposition, Llywydd, is utterly shameless—utterly without shame. He comes to the floor of the Senedd here when his Government in Westminster ended a meeting in acrimony with the Royal College of Nursing only last night, because they refused to put, as the leader of the RCN said, a single penny on the table to increase the pay of nurses in England, which would have led to, as they all know, a Barnett consequential that we could have used for pay here in Wales. That is the only way in which we are able to make a better offer here. We are tied entirely by the decisions that are made on pay by his colleagues in Westminster. That is the place that he should be lobbying. The minute that his Ministers are prepared to make a better offer for nurses in England, we will be able to make that offer here in Wales. If he is serious—I can't imagine for a minute that he would be— that we should divert all the money that we have received from the UK Government not for pay but to invest in the service of the NHS, that we should divert all of that away from sustaining the service and into pay, he should say that explicitly this afternoon, because people in Wales would be interested to hear that.

What is shameless, First Minister, is that people across Wales are in the worst waiting situation of any NHS. Only this week, we had to hear about the issue in Cwmbran where a grandfather was put on a plank in the back of a van, because the ambulance service could not respond to the cry of help from that family to convey him to hospital. What is a serious Government is a serious Government dealing with these issues, and putting something meaningful on the table to get those negotiations off the ground. The point I made to you in my first remarks was why was no offer coming forward from your Government. I understand that it is a difficult situation, I understand that money is tight, but you constantly talk about wanting more powers; you have the powers over terms and conditions within the NHS. You have the levers financially to raise more revenue if you choose to do that. You have, by this budget today that you've laid, chosen not to do that, but you've had £1.2 billion-worth of extra money. You also have an uplift in the finance from Wales for every £1 that is spent in England to £1.20 in Wales. You have taken a political decision to have this fight here in Wales, rather than use the tools available to you to resolve it. It's at your door that this is lying and no-one else's, and I implore you to get back to the negotiating table and resolve this issue as a matter of urgency, so that we don't see the despair and despondency that people are facing week in, week out, with increased waiting times and stories like I've just told you about the people in Cwmbran who had to rely on a plank and a van to convey their grandfather to hospital.  

Well, I'm afraid, Llywydd, that shouting at me does not disguise for a moment the emptiness of the points that the leader of the opposition has made this afternoon. He urges me on the one hand to use the money we've had from the UK Government to pay staff in the NHS, without for a second recognising that, if we were to do that, the service pressures that led to the sorts of difficulties that the ambulance service had to experience this weekend could only possibly get worse. So, his proposals would lead to more Cwmbrans, because we would have taken that money under his suggestion away from that service, and, instead, put it into pay. 

The offer that we have made is the offer that was recommended by the independent pay review body. We've paid that in full, and we have negotiated with our colleagues in the trade union movement to shape that offer in a way that actually means that nurses on bands 1 to 4 of 'Agenda for Change', which is almost half the nurses in Wales, will receive 7.5 per cent uplift in their pay. Nurses on band 1, the lowest paid, will get an uplift of 10.8 per cent in their pay; they will be paid more than any other nurse in that position in any other part of the United Kingdom. And the discussions that my colleague, Eluned Morgan, had with the RCN and others yesterday were all about looking to see whether there are things beyond pay that we can do to make those jobs more attractive to people here in Wales.

The leader of the opposition says to me that we could raise money through raising taxes here in Wales. He's made that suggestion to me in the past. It's an astonishing suggestion for him to make. As a result of the decisions made in the autumn statement, taxes levied on people in Wales are higher than they have been for the last 70 years. Now, his proposal is that we should tax people in Wales even more than his Government's record levels have already imposed upon them. Does he think for a moment that that is a serious proposition to put to a Government here in a Wales—that, at a time when people cannot buy food and they cannot afford to pay for energy, that we should take even more money out of their pockets than his Government is taking already? That is not a choice that a serious Government would make here in Wales. And even if we did so, how does he imagine that that would allow us to make an offer to public service workers in Wales that would go anywhere near matching the level of inflation in the economy? It costs £100 million to raise 1 per cent more on public sector pay here in Wales. 

Llywydd, this Government is clear: front-line workers in the NHS and elsewhere in the public service deserve to have their pay protected and not to see it being undermined by levels of inflation of the sort we see today. The only way that that can happen—he knows it; quite certainly people outside in Wales know it—is by the UK Government being prepared to fund those settlements in England and allowing the Barnett formula to allow us to do that in Wales. That will be a serious conversation, and a very different conversation to the one that he has offered us this afternoon.

Plaid Cymru leader, Adam Price.

Diolch, Llywydd. Over the last few days, Labour's shadow health Secretary in Westminster, Wes Streeting, has referred to the RCN and Unison's offer to suspend strike action, if the UK health Secretary was prepared to discuss pay. That is an offer that is too good to refuse, but that is what the Tories are doing at Westminster, and that's what you are doing in Wales. Steve Barclay met with the unions and refused to negotiate over pay; Eluned Morgan met the unions and refused to negotiate over pay. For Wales: see England. And you say your hands are tied, but how, then, has the Scottish Government been able to get to a position where two health unions have called off their strike action, and others have paused it pending a new ballot, because they have negotiated a better agreement for those workers? You yourselves as a Government, through Transport for Wales, have averted strike action in Transport for Wales. Why? Because you were prepared to negotiate a better agreement than was offered to those workers than in England. If you can do it in Transport for Wales, why not in the NHS?

Well, let me just make two points: we know how the Scottish Government has been able to make that offer, and it's a decision for the Scottish Government to make. They have made it by taking £400 million out of the NHS and transferring that money into pay. That is not a decision that we have felt able to make here in Wales. And, as for the deal struck by Transport for Wales, it is self-financing. They have been able to agree changes to working practices with their workers that mean that they are able to afford to make a different pay offer, and no such opportunities exist in the NHS.

They haven't taken £400 million out of the NHS, they've invested it in the NHS workforce and have recognised that, without actually sustaining the morale of that workforce, then there wouldn't be an NHS, because, actually, who is there to deliver it? Now, Rishi Sunak has said that an inflationary pay increase for all public sector workers would cost £28 billion; the Institute for Fiscal Studies points out that that's an inflated figure, because it doesn't include the pay deals already offered. Now, last week Eluned Morgan said that an inflationary pay increase would cost £900 million in Wales. But again, that's across the entire public sector, it doesn't acknowledge the over-£200 million that you've already committed as part of your current offer to NHS staff. So what, First Minister, would it take to top up what you've already offered to the 7.5 per cent pay award that has averted the strikes in Scotland? It's around £120 million. Are you seriously saying that you don't have any money left in the Welsh reserve; there is no unallocated funding left, that you could not use some of the £200 million you spend annually on private sector services in the NHS, that you couldn't better spend that on public sector staff?

Well, I'm afraid that's a deeply confused question, Llywydd. It is the Scottish Government itself that published figures that showed that it had taken £400 million out of plans that it otherwise had to spend on NHS services and had transferred that into pay. Now, that is a perfectly legitimate decision for them to make. But they didn't find £400 million of new money; they took it out of things, and that's what he's got to recognise. They took it out of things that they had planned for the NHS to do: more operations, more ambulance capacity, more in primary care investment—all the things that Plaid Cymru Members advocate on the floor of this Chamber, week after week. And in Scotland, there will be less of that, as a result of the decisions that the Scottish Government has made. And, he says to me that we should follow them and that we should take £120 million out of the service of the NHS and use it to top up the pay of workers. Well, that's fine, he can make that case; we have stared at that case as well, and we have decided that, given the stresses and the strains that we see in the NHS every single day, where we see the need still to recover from COVID, with people waiting for treatments that they otherwise would have received, to take £120 million out of that effort and to put it in pay would not be the choice that we would make. I agree with what the shadow health spokesperson said in England; it was an offer too good to refuse. It's a matter of great disappointment, I think, that, when Steven Barclay had an opportunity to meet the RCN, he didn't find a way of making an improved offer to them, because we would then have had the opportunity to have made that improved offer here in Wales. 

I think it's astonishing that you're attacking the Tories in Westminster when you're doing exactly the same in Wales in refusing to talk about pay to the unions. I just disagree philosophically with the First Minister: I do not see that actually investing in better pay and conditions for the workforce is actually diverting money out of the NHS; it's investing in the long-term, sustainable future of the NHS, because, without those nurses, those doctors and NHS staff, what future is there for the service at all? 

You referred to the independent pay review body. Why not, as the unions are calling for you to do—? If you're not prepared to have face-to-face negotiations over pay, why not actually turn to the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service and have independent arbitration? This is what we've heard from the Labour Party in other trade union disputes, and yet you're not prepared to actually practice what you preach in terms of your own values. You yourself have said that any dispute, ultimately, has to be ended through negotiation. Why not have the negotiation to avert the strikes rather than actually have the strikes continue right through the winter, adding pain upon pain in the crisis that we're already facing? Surely there's a better way forward, First Minister.

The difference between us, Llywydd, is not philosophical at all; it's simply practical. He wants to take £120 million out of activity that the NHS in Wales is committed to undertake, and would use that money to pay people. That's a practical choice; our choice has had to be different because we see the enormous pressures that the NHS faces every single day. Now, I repeat what I said: all disputes in the end end by negotiation. I urge the Westminster Government to negotiate in a way that allows us in Wales to be able to do what we would wish to do, and that is to make sure that the people who carry out those front-line services, the things we rely on all the time, are properly rewarded for their service. But, without the funding that we need to be able to do that, the idea that you can dream up—and we've had it dreamed up on both sides of the Chamber this afternoon—magical solutions that say that somehow we are in a position in Wales to do something uniquely that isn't available across the border—. By raising taxes, according to the Tories—astonishing, absolutely astonishing. 'Use the powers you've got', I keep hearing from the leader of the opposition, and the powers we've got, that he points to, are to take more money in taxes from people in Wales. So, it's 'raise taxes' on one side of the Chamber, and it's 'take money away from services in the NHS' on the other. This Government has made its decision. We support all those people whose working lives have been so badly affected by a decade of austerity and the profound economic mismanagement that has led us to the position of the economy in the UK today. And when fair pay is available through the UK Government, then we will make sure that we use any of that money to advance the cause of fair pay here in Wales.

Question 3, Joel James.

Sorry about that—

That's okay.

—just a wardrobe malfunction there, sorry.

I thank the Member for the question, Llywydd. Welsh Government presence at Qatar allowed us to amplify knowledge of Wales across the World and to speak up for the values that matter to us. Cultural—[Interruption.]

Sorry, First Minister, I think we have an issue with the tech for Joel. If it's okay, Joel, I'll postpone your question for now, and perhaps somebody can look at your tech issue. I'll come back to your question. I'll move to cwestiwn 4, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Llywydd, citizens in Wales, including South Wales East, have benefitted from initiatives such as the £150 cost-of-living payment, the fuel support scheme and our Wales-only discretionary assistance fund. The Welsh Government will continue to support the most vulnerable households through this difficult period.

Diolch, Prif Weinidog. Yesterday marked four years since you took office as First Minister. In that time, we've seen an upturn in fortunes for some of our poorest—. We haven't seen an upturn—. Not even able to read my question, sorry. I'll start again. [Laughter.] Yes. In that time, we haven't seen an upturn in fortunes for some of our poorest communities. In fact, it has got a lot worse for many, and it will probably deteriorate even further. Visiting people in my region, I see this deterioration first-hand in many communities, some of which are the poorest communities in the country. Granted, much of the blame for this lies at the door of Westminster and a system that never recognises or prioritises Wales, but you cling on to it regardless. But there are things that we can do here in Wales. An anti-poverty strategy would be a great start. First Minister, why have you not implemented one in the last four years of your leadership to replace the anti-poverty strategy your Government axed in 2017?

Well, Llywydd, I agree with what the Member says about the very tough time that faces so many communities here in Wales, particularly over this winter. The general background is not as bleak as he would portray it. I answered a question earlier this afternoon about the census, and, if you look at some of the figures in the latest releases from the census, it shows that household deprivation has fallen significantly in Wales over that decade. The census analyses deprivation against four areas. It looks at employment, education, health and disability, and housing. In 2011, 61 per cent of all Welsh households experienced at least one of those four dimensions of deprivation. By 2021, that had fallen to 54 per cent, and the biggest falls were in parts of the Member's own region. The biggest falls were in Blaenau Gwent, for example. So, while I'm agreeing with him about the challenges that are faced in the here and now and over this winter, I don't think it is fair to portray the whole of what has happened, either since I became First Minister or previously, as not having had a positive effect, because that is exactly what the census figures demonstrate.

And as to his point about a strategy, I'll repeat what I've said many times now, Llywydd, that what I want our civil service colleagues and those we work with to be focused on are those practical actions that make a difference in the lives of Welsh citizens. Writing strategies is not something that is going to put food on anybody's table or help anybody to meet their fuel bills this winter. We will publish a refreshed child poverty strategy next year, but, for me, in a cost-of-living crisis, what do I think the Welsh Government should be doing: writing more strategy documents or delivering the fuel bank to every community in Wales; delivering the winter fuel payment, uniquely here in Wales; making sure that we can invest in the discretionary assistance fund, available only here in Wales? For me, the focus of people's actions, the energy we have, the money we have, the time we have available, is better focused on those practical things that make a difference, and we will come to a renewed strategy when the immediate difficulties of this winter have begun to recede.

First Minister, firstly, happy four-year anniversary, and I'd like to also ask: it's estimated that up to 80,000 people are actually poorer pensioners in Wales and missing out on pension credit, which is worth up to £65 a week on average, compared to those who claim, and that over £200 million goes unclaimed each year. In south-east Wales, nearly 17,500 people already claim pension credit, but it's estimated that around a quarter of people who could claim the extra help do not do so. Research has shown that many people don't claim because they don't think they're either eligible, as well as being reluctant to do so because of the embarrassment and stigma that's associated with it. The UK Conservative Government has launched a new campaign to boost the take-up of pension credit, as part of their package of measures to support people with the cost of living. So, First Minister, will you join me in welcoming this campaign by the UK Conservative Government? And what action are you taking, alongside the Ministers here, to make older people in Wales aware of their rights to claim this extra support to which they may be entitled, specifically those whose first language is not either English or Welsh? Thank you.

I thank the Member for that important question. As many Members of the Senedd will know, we created a new Cabinet committee back in September, which has met every week during this autumn, to look at cost-of-living measures. We were joined yesterday by the UK Minister for social mobility, and there was an opportunity there to discuss the need to improve the uptake of pension credit for all the reasons that Natasha Asghar has mentioned. We were able to talk about the actions we are taking as a Government, with our take-up campaigns and our 'make every contact count' campaign over this autumn, and how we can bring the actions we are taking, together with the new publicity that the UK Government is providing around the take-up of pension credit, together, so that we can have the maximum impact here in Wales. Pension credit is such an important benefit, Llywydd, because it's a gateway benefit. It opens the door to so many other things that people can get, and for that reason I agree with what the Member says. Anything we can do, across the Chamber, to improve the take-up of that benefit here in Wales will be time and investment well spent.

We'll return now to question 3, by Joel James.

Thank you, Llywydd—really sorry about that.

Llywydd, the Welsh Government's presence at Qatar allowed us to amplify knowledge of Wales across the world and to speak up for the values that matter to us. Cultural and economic benefits will be among the products of that engagement.

Thank you, First Minister. The world cup has undoubtedly brought benefits through increasing the profile of Welsh football on the international stage, and I think we can all congratulate the Welsh team on their performance and look forward to one day seeing them—hopefully—in the world cup final. Despite our success, and I'm sure you will agree, it is with sadness that the competition took place in a country that has an appalling human rights record, particularly concerning the treatment of migrant workers and laws on homosexuality. You have received criticism for attending the world cup, and I do not wish to address that now, but I do fear that, if there is no follow-up action, then the opportunity will be forever lost to show how protecting workers' rights and having an inclusive culture can actually help improve everyone's life. I was delighted to hear that you have had those conversations already, but, with this in mind, and given what you have experienced—the conversations you've had and the contacts you have made in Qatar—what follow-up action are you now going to take with Qatari officials to promote the values and rights that we believe and hold dear in Wales? Thank you.

Well, Llywydd, I thank the Member for that further question. Let me give him two examples of ways in which we will want to follow up our presence at the world cup in the areas that he mentions. So, I said in my original answer that there would be cultural follow-up to the visit. I was able to visit the Museum of Islamic Art while I was in Qatar. It's a most fantastic museum, and one of the most striking things about it is that it is run, at a senior level, almost exclusively by women, and that is undoubtedly unusual in Qatar. But the director general of the museum is a woman. Her two deputies were both women. And we want to do anything we can to encourage that sort of development. So, we will invite a group of young women educators involved in the museum service in Qatar to come to Wales in the summer of next year, and then we will have an exchange in return of young women from Wales visiting the museum service in Qatar. And that is a practical example of the way in which we can use the contacts that we've made and the platform that there is there now in order to advance some of the desirable outcomes that Joel James mentioned. 

As far as workers' rights are concerned, before going to Qatar I met with the International Trade Union Confederation and, while in Qatar, my colleague Vaughan Gething met with the International Labour Organization. Those are the two organisations that have come together on the ground to try to improve the rights of workers in that part of the world. They both said to us that progress had been made—not enough, not quickly enough and with anxieties about that progress being entrenched when the eyes of the world are no longer on Qatar.

One of the ways, the practical ways, in which we can help to make that happen is through the migrant worker centre that the FAW and others are trying to make sure is guaranteed to be in Qatar after the world cup moves away. We will support them in that because while new rights have been established, those rights are not relevant if people don't know about them or know how to make sure that they are realised in their own places of work. A migrant workers centre would be somewhere where incoming workers could go, could be sure they are fully armed with all the new rights that exist, would know what means of redress exist if those new rights are not realised, and somewhere to go back to if they need further help in the future. They are just two practical actions, Llywydd, that follow on from the decision to attend the world cup in Qatar, in what was always a difficult and closely balanced decision, that show that there will be genuine advances that we will continue to be able to assist with when the world cup itself is over.

Can I thank Joel James for bringing this question forward, and for his important supplementary? As Joel has said, we are all proud, aren't we, of our national team, both the men's and the women's, and the last six years of supporting Cymru have certainly been the very best of my lifetime, and I'm sure that's the same for many others here, albeit that mine might be a little shorter than others. [Laughter.] But that success doesn't happen by accident, Llywydd. It started with my childhood hero, Gary Speed, and, of course, in the Welsh women's team, Jayne Ludlow, and it continues with the current management now and the governance of Noel Mooney. But one of the legacies from this world cup, First Minister, has to be improved facilities.

I declare an interest, Llywydd: my local team, Connah's Quay Nomads Football Club, which I'm an ambassador for, had their game called off this weekend at Cymru Premier level. Just think how many games at grass-roots and children's level were the same. But, as we face the impact of austerity 2.0 from the United Kingdom Government, First Minister, do you agree with me that this will have an impact on football, and will you take every opportunity to remind the UK Tory Government that austerity does limit ambition and talent development in all walks of life, including pêl-droed?

Well, Llywydd, I absolutely agree with Jack Sargeant. One of the legacies of Wales's success in getting to the world cup final has to be in inspiring that new generation of young people to take part in sports of all kind, and if they're to do that, then investment in facilities is necessary. We work alongside the FAW, with significant investment through Sport Wales, both to invest in grass-roots football, but also to invest in other sports that we know are succeeding here in Wales.

Jack Sargeant can look forward to another year ahead, Llywydd, where Wales will be on that world stage. We will be in India for the Men's FIH Hockey World Cup final, and that's a huge thing. Hockey is an enormous sport in India—millions and millions of people across the world will see Wales again at a world cup final. Our women will be at the Netball World Cup final in South Africa later next year, and of course next year will be a year of the Rugby World Cup in France. So, Jack has been luckier than some of us in the time that he has been following Welsh sport, but the good news is that there's plenty more to come, and that should—as he said—be an inspiration to those young people across Wales to invest their time and their energy in pastimes in which we have seen such phenomenal success for Wales in recent times.

Investment in infrastructure, skills and start-ups are the essential ingredients in Government action to develop our economy. The Swansea bay city deal digital district programme, part-funded by Welsh Government, is an example of how we are working together to support economic development and growth.

On 1 December, I, alongside the First Minister, was at Veeqo's official office opening at Technium 2, following their being taken over by Amazon—a success story of bringing highly paid employment into Swansea. This happened at least in part due to the graduates being produced and the support of the local universities. What further support can the Welsh Government give to the university sector to develop more highly paid jobs in Swansea, and has the First Minister got any comment on Swansea University's warning about the impact of the UK Government's failure to secure participation in Horizon Europe? What impact is this having on Welsh universities being able to contribute to local economic development?

Llywydd, I thank Mike Hedges. It was very good to be in Swansea with him at the start of this month, and a chance to put on record once again: congratulations to Matt Warren, who founded Veeqo less than 10 years ago, and has made it such an outstanding success. In his contribution at that ceremony, he focused on the quality-of-life advantages that come with living in the Swansea area, the quality of the workforce that he had been able to recruit—particularly the level of skills that had been developed from young people in universities here in Wales—and he focused on the quality of infrastructure now available in that part of Swansea. And it is a genuine boost to the region's growing tech sector that we've seen such a success in a company that now operates on that global scale.

In terms of the second part of Mike Hedges's question, our universities undoubtedly face a series of headwinds when it comes to being able to invest in the sorts of new initiatives and skill development that led to Veeqo's success in Swansea. We know that we will not be able to replace for Swansea University the £135 million, which is the most conservative estimate of the benefits that they have derived from European funding in the last seven-year multi-annual framework. The UK Government has comprehensively failed to deliver the absolute guarantee that we were offered, that Wales would not be a penny worse off, and not only is the amount of money not available to Wales, but the people who benefited from it aren't able to benefit from it either. So, whereas, in Wales, the Welsh Government was able to benefit from that—that's how Business Wales has been developed; that's how the Development Bank of Wales has had some of its success—neither our universities, neither our private businesses, neither is the third sector able to take any advantage from the reduced funding that is available to us.

And at the same time, Swansea University particularly has drawn attention to the failure of the UK Government to reach an agreement over participation in the next iteration of the Horizon programme. Wales drew down a far greater proportion of funding out of Horizon than we would have been entitled to on a population-share basis, and Swansea University itself secured €18 million of EU funding with 51 different Horizon projects over the 2014 to 2020 period. Now there's nothing. We don't have association with Horizon and we don't have certainty from the UK Government about any plan B successor programme, and it is no wonder that the university has issued the warning it has about redundancies and retrenchment in those very areas where the Veeqo development shows how success can be created.

I thank Siân Gwenllian, Llywydd. Intake numbers have been agreed and funding approved for 140 students per year, once the school reaches optimum capacity. A letter of assurance was sent to General Medical Council colleagues in November to allow Bangor University to continue their forward momentum through the accreditation process.

As we are about to discuss the draft budget for the next year, it's good to remember that establishing a medical school in Bangor emanated from a budget agreement between Plaid Cymru and your Government several years ago now, long before the co-operation agreement, truth be told. So, it is good to see this commitment continuing to be supported and the plan going from strength to strength. Bangor is quickly developing as a centre of medical training and health training. A new dental academy has just opened there, leading to possibilities for the teaching of dentistry in Bangor. There is discussion ongoing about studying pharmacy in the city. Do you, as a Government, support the creation of a health training centre in Bangor that would contain not just the new medical school, but dentistry and pharmacy too?

I thank Siân Gwenllian, Llywydd. I do agree that it is good to see everything that we've done together to establish a medical school in Bangor coming to fruition in a successful manner. And, of course, as the local Member, Siân Gwenllian has ambition about drawing on the success in the context of the medical school to do more for the future. I have seen the responses that Eluned Morgan has given to the written questions tabled by Siân Gwenllian. This demonstrates that the university in Bangor has now started to provide degrees in pharmacology, and, after that, there are possibilities in terms of developing degrees in pharmacy too.

In terms of dentistry, it is good to see the academy opening and providing services to local people. The facilities are already there to help those who are training as dental hygienists in Bangor, and indeed, as I've explained more than once on the floor of the Chamber, in my view, the priority in dentistry is not focusing only on training dentists, but also looking at the team around dentists that can provide services in that area. In future, the hope is that there will be opportunities for people in Bangor to do more to help us to expand the number of people who can provide services to people in that area.

Llywydd, the Welsh Government's review of hospice care has led to an uplift in hospice funding of £2.2 million from this financial year and onwards. That includes the fantastic St David’s Foundation Hospice Care that serves the Newport area. Phase 2 of the review considers broader end-of-life care services, including those provided by health, social care and the third sector.

Diolch, Brif Weinidog. Palliative care can represent a huge spectrum of different emotions. It's an incredibly sensitive time for all involved, individuals, families and friends. For many, the decision to move to palliative care comes far, far too soon. For others, it can be an accepted relief. What we must ensure is that, when those difficult conversations are being made when the time comes for those decisions, all respect is given to the individual and, most importantly, that their wishes and preferences are listened to and, as much as possible, accommodated. Good palliative care can make a huge difference to a person's quality of life, as well as for those who care for them, helping them to live as well as possible and to die with dignity. I fully welcome the Welsh Government's new vision for palliative care in Wales. How will these plans help to develop greater resilience and co-production within end-of-life care to ensure patient choice is at the forefront?

I thank Jayne Bryant for what she said about the palliative care quality statement, which my colleague Eluned Morgan publicised recently. It picks up many of the points that the Member has just made, Llywydd. We're not good at talking about these things in our culture. In many ways, those conversations need to start far earlier than when people are faced with those incredibly difficult end-of-life decisions.

I worked closely at one point with the Byw Nawr programme, led as it was by our former colleague Hywel Francis. That was all about encouraging people to have those conversations before you reach the point of needing to have them, to make advanced decisions, as you're able to make here in Wales, letting the system know how you would wish to be cared for should you find yourself in those circumstances. That sense of that being a genuine conversation between the individual, with rights, with ambitions for their own life, with decisions that they themselves can exercise, and the system that will help to care for them, was absolutely at the centre of that initiative. I'm sure that, as we move forward with that wider end-of-life development that I talked about, those qualities will be captured again in those conversations. 

Thank you, First Minister. 

The next item is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement—Lesley Griffiths. 

There is one change to this week's business. The Non-Domestic Rating (Chargeable Amounts) (Wales) Regulations 2022 will be debated immediately after the debate on the draft budget statement. Draft business for the next three weeks of the spring term is set out in the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically. 

Minister, can I ask for a statement please from the Deputy Minister for Climate Change on further delays in completing the south Wales metro project? One of the main aims of the south Wales metro project is to encourage people off the roads and, naturally, to use public transport. In February 2021, the chief executive of Transport for Wales said the completion of the south Wales metro project would be delayed by months, not years, as a result of the pandemic, with the completion date remaining as 2023. In May this year, TfW said the cost of the metro project was likely to be significantly over its £734 million budget, with the overspend likely to run into tens of billions of pounds. Completion of the project will be put back now to 2024. Last month, further delays have been confirmed to upgrades, with the 'majority' of the work being finished in 2024, with no date for full completion of the project being given. One of the reasons given for this further delay was COVID, which TfW had earlier said would not cause any more delays beyond 2023. Can I please have a statement from the Deputy Minister to advise when the work on the south Wales metro will finally be completed and what is the latest estimate of the total cost of the Welsh Government's flagship project to get people off the roads and to finally use public transport? Thanks.

The Deputy Minister for Climate Change will be happy to do a written statement. 

I'd like to ask for a statement, please, relating to the support that's given to mothers and families who lose their babies before 24 weeks in Wales. At present, women who lose babies before that time don't receive a certificate of birth. Since July, in England, women who suffer miscarriage or ectopic or molar pregnancy before that date can receive a certificate, and many women have spoken publicly about how that can help with the grieving process. 

Certificates alone aren't enough, of course. As I've raised before, I'd like further support given to mothers and families in Wales, like maternity and compassionate leave for those who lose babies earlier in their little lives. But introducing this change relating to birth certificates would truly help so many women come to terms with the loss they've suffered, and help them record and commemorate the lives of their children. I'd welcome a statement on this, please. 

Thank you. I was reading a very interesting article on this issue yesterday. I know the Minister for Health and Social Services is aware, obviously, of what's happened in England, and is considering further action that might be necessary here in Wales. I'm sure she will do a statement when she's done that consideration.

Will the Welsh Government make a statement on the effect of Airbnb on the rental housing market? Whilst there are some controls—I would argue not enough—on the development of houses in multiple occupation, there are no controls on Airbnb. What analysis of the effect of Airbnb on the housing market has been made, and is the Government considering curbs on the number of Airbnbs in any area, similar to HMO controls?

Secondly, will the Government make a statement on the relationship between housing and health, something the Attlee Government was well aware of? We have known for several years that there is a large discrepancy in healthy life expectancy depending on individual wealth, based upon the area where people live. Is it any surprise that those who live in dry, warm homes, eat a balanced diet, and do not spend their days worrying about heating their homes and feeding their families live longer and healthier lives?

Absolutely, I agree with Mike Hedges. We obviously believe everyone should have access to a decent, affordable home. This is fundamental to people's mental and physical health, and of course their well-being as well. The Member will be aware that we're funding numerous programmes to increase access to those homes, including record funding for building low-carbon social houses for rent.

You'll be aware also that the First Minister and the leader of Plaid Cymru have previously confirmed their commitment, as part of the co-operation agreement, to introduce a statutory licence scheme for all visitor accommodation, and a consultation on proposals will be launched later this week. What that scheme will do is make it a requirement to obtain a licence to operate visitor accommodation. That includes short-term holiday lets, and will obviously help raise standards across the tourism industry and improve data supporting future planning decisions.

I'd like to ask for a Welsh Government statement on the announcement that Vivarail Ltd have gone bust. As you know, plans to increase rail services in the north Wales border area are now on hold, after the company, Vivarail Ltd, who were supplying these trains, went into administration. You'll recall that it was back in 2018 that Transport for Wales made the deal with Vivarail for refurbished trains to serve residents on the border, and this was supposed to be delivered in mid 2019. We're now three years down the line since that promise was made, and residents that I serve in Denbighshire, Flintshire and Wrexham still do not have that new rail service that they were promised. I'm sure you would agree, Trefnydd, that for your residents, as an MS in north Wales, it's not a good position to be in. As we know, Transport for Wales is wholly owned by the Welsh Government to deliver on the policies of this Government. I think it's time that a statement is brought to the Chamber explaining the situation and when those trains will be introduced into north Wales.

It is true that there have been a number of disappointing delays with bringing these new trains into service. They do include the need for Transport for Wales to rigorously ensure they're safe and they're reliable for passenger use, following some incidents during their testing. It's very unfortunate that Vivarail have entered administration, but that's obviously not the fault of Transport for Wales. They've invested significantly in the class 230 trains from Vivarail, and they have planned the additional services on the Wrexham to Bidston line on the use of these trains. I am aware that Transport for Wales are in liaison with the small number of other operators of Vivarail trains, and they're going to be discussing with them a longer term strategy on spares. I think one of the most significant challenges Transport for Wales have had, though, is the chaos caused by the UK Government's failure to resolve the industrial dispute with the rail unions. If Transport for Wales are unable to access the tracks, they can't test the trains or train their drivers on the new fleet. So, I really would urge the UK Government to step up and resolve these disputes now.

May I ask for an update, please, with regard to the independent review of floods, and, in particular, how Members will be able to submit evidence? Obviously, this is part of the co-operation agreement, and I know that work is ongoing, but there is an important element in terms of us as elected Members being able to submit evidence. Having clarity on that through a written or oral statement would be very beneficial. Thank you.

Thank you. I assume the process is still the same for Members to be able to give that evidence, but I will check with the Minister for Climate Change in relation to that.

May I ask for a statement regarding progress made over the last 12 months on delivery of the north Wales metro, and suggest that an annual statement would be very helpful for Members? I also ask for a statement regarding funding for bus services, given bus services are going to be so prominent in terms of delivery of the north Wales metro. Diolch. 

Thank you. As I've committed the Deputy Minister for Climate Change to publish a written statement on the south Wales metro, I think it's only fair that he does one on the north Wales metro as well. 

I call for a statement on sports participation for school-aged children in Wales, and particularly north Wales. One of the three north Wales-based junior parkruns is called Prestatyn Prom, and it's suffering from a low take-up of participants and is at risk of closing. Junior parkruns, which are run by volunteers, are free, fun and friendly weekly 2 km events for children aged 4 to 14, to jog, run or walk every Sunday morning. Parkrun Cymru is very keen to help promote and grow this event to be as successful as other junior parkruns across Wales. Parkrun has already been identified as a model that fits the Welsh Government's proposed social prescribing framework through participation and volunteering. The Sport Wales 2022 school sport survey stated that only 39 per cent of pupils took part in organised sport outside of the curriculum three or more times a week, but that 93 per cent of pupils in Wales had a demand to do more sport. It is therefore vital that we grow free, accessible and enjoyable activities for children, such as junior parkrun, and I call for a Welsh Government statement outlining how this could be achieved. Thank you. 

Thank you. I'm very aware of junior parkruns. I have one in my own constituency, which my daughter, who does parkrun, has commandeered me into volunteering on. I think it is a good way of getting young people active, and certainly the ones that I have seen in Wrexham have been very well supported. You will be aware that in our schools both the Minister for Education and Welsh Language and the Deputy Minister with responsibility for sport fund a significant variety of sports to encourage young people. Obviously, Parkrun, as you say, is an organisation that really is run by volunteers, and I'm not aware of anything in the pipeline to support them. 

Minister, I'd like to ask for a statement on support for veterans of atomic bomb testing, please, as 2022 marks the plutonium jubilee, 70 years since the first UK atomic bomb tests. Since then, scores of the people that participated in those tests—military veterans, scientists, indigenous peoples and their families—have suffered immeasurably. Not one of those people have been given the correct recognition for their sacrifices. Many of them were from Wales. LABRATS International are calling for a national apology, a medal to recognise the service and sacrifice of these veterans, financial support for veterans and families, an education programme on the tests and their impacts, and research for descendants. Some of these things are within the competence of this Senedd. So, will you work with LABRATS and other organisations to help achieve these aims? Can we have a statement from the Government on what steps you're taking to assist these people? Thank you. Diolch. 

Thank you. I am aware the Deputy Minister for Social Justice works very closely with veterans services right across Wales on a variety of issues around health and housing, for instance. I'm not aware of anything specific about the group of people that you refer to, but I will certainly ask if there is anything specific that can be done, and, if so, there will be a statement. 

Across Wales there are approximately 90 residential park home sites, which are home to over 3,000 households. Research undertaken in 2016 on behalf of the Welsh Government showed that there was evidence of fuel poverty on these sites. This situation will have no doubt worsened in the current cost-of-living crisis. The majority of park home residents are elderly and disproportionately likely to be less well-off. Park home owners are allowed to increase pitch fees on an annual basis by the rate of the consumer prices index, and, in light of the disastrous premiership of Liz Truss, which saw inflation rates roaring, it's currently at 11 per cent. An 11 per cent increase in pitch fees will push even more park home residents into poverty this winter. So, could I have a statement from the Minister for Climate Change regarding the Welsh Government's plans to protect park home residents from an 11 per cent increase in pitch fees, if that's possible? Thank you.

Thank you. We haven't been made aware or informed that park home occupiers have seen significant increases in pitch fees here in Wales, but obviously it's really important that we monitor the situation. Unlike in England, pitch fees here are based on the consumer price index and not the retail price index, so I think that is the significant difference. But, of course, we recognise the points that you raise around the cost of living and the inflationary increases—both the indices have increased. The regulations do identify there is a presumption, not an absolute requirement, that the pitch fee is to increase or decrease by a percentage that is no more than any percentage increase or decrease in the consumer price index.

Trefnydd, I'm asking for a ministerial statement from the Deputy Minister for sport on the proposals by the Liberal Democrat administration in Powys County Council to close leisure centres and pools across my constituency over Christmas and the new year, and potentially up to April and beyond, without any consultation with local residents. This will be devastating for people in my constituency and across Powys who rely on leisure centres to support their physical and mental health and also to keep our young children active. So, I'd welcome a statement from the Government outlining the benefits of leisure centres to our communities and what support the Welsh Government could give to keep them open, and also to remind local authorities about their obligations to consult with residents around any changes to leisure facilities in our communities.

Thank you. We recognise all our local authorities, just the same as Welsh Government, are under severe budgetary difficulties, but the issue you raise is a matter for Powys County Council.

Can we have a Government statement on the fire service please, Trefnydd? Like many who saw the ITN report on South Wales Fire and Rescue Service yesterday evening, I was horrified. There should not be any place for misogyny within the workplace, but this is especially the case with a public service like the fire brigade. I was extremely disappointed to discover that this behaviour has been found in the fire service and has not been dealt with. I am pleased that South Wales Fire and Rescue Service chief fire officer, Huw Jakeway, has announced a review into their culture, disciplinary processes and historic cases. I'm keen now to know, through a statement, what the Welsh Government makes of the situation and how they plan to act to support the processes to make the south Wales fire service a place that's a safe and welcoming place for women.

Thank you very much. Obviously, we strongly condemn behaviours like these. They have no place in the fire and rescue service, or anywhere else for that matter. It's really important that they are met with the absolute sternest possible sanctions from management. I was very pleased to see Huw Jakeway announce the independent inquiry. I am aware the Deputy Minister for Social Justice this morning met with the chair of South Wales Fire and Rescue Service.

And finally, Mark Isherwood.

Diolch. I call for a statement on support for people with eating disorders in Wales. Research has found that using menu labels to limit calories has been shown to be related to binge eating amongst women and to be associated with more weight-related concerns, dieting and unhealthy weight-control behaviours amongst both women and men. Beat, the UK's eating disorder charity, met with Lynne Neagle MS, the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, last week to deliver an open letter signed by almost 700 people living in Wales who are urging the Welsh Government to reconsider introducing mandatory calorie labelling on menus. This follows a survey they conducted that asked those in Wales living with or affected by eating disorders to give their thoughts on the proposal, and 98 per cent of respondents felt that calorie labelling on menus would have a negative impact on those living with eating disorders. One said,

'I've already witnessed the fear she feels at the thought of being faced with calories on menus and slipping back into the grips of anorexia. This terrifies me too. The detrimental effect that this could have on people with eating disorders is huge.'

We therefore need to know if and how the Deputy Minister can justify implementing legislation that would cause harm to those suffering with eating disorders and risk isolating those who may already feel isolated from society even further. I call for a statement accordingly.

Thank you. I think it is about a balance. I am aware the Deputy Minister had the meeting to which the Member alluded and is currently considering a way forward.

I thank the Trefnydd.

Item 3 this afternoon is a statement by the Minister for Economy on the young person's guarantee. I call on the Minister, Vaughan Gething.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Last month saw the one-year anniversary of the launch of the young person's guarantee here in Wales. This key programme for government commitment provides under-25s in Wales with the offer of support to gain a place in education or training, support to find a job, or support to become self-employed. I recognise the importance of work for our young people, and I want all young people in Wales to be able to benefit from the rewards that good work brings—not just the financial rewards, but the sense of purpose and pride that comes from having a job. The weight of evidence also tells us that the interventions we make now will help young people maintain better paid work over the course of their working life.

Dirprwy Lywydd, we know that the pandemic has meant that many young people have lost out on valuable work experience and training opportunities very early on in their careers. Employers have lost out on recruiting prospective employees and opportunities to create a new, more dynamic workforce. The impact of the pandemic on our labour market is still unfolding, but we're clear about the need to learn lessons as we move forward. 

In the wake of the disastrous UK Government mini budget mark 1, a bleak economic outlook from the Office for Budget Responsibility and Bank of England, and the loss of replacement EU funds, I am more concerned than ever about the employment prospects of our young people. And the recession is likely to cause higher unemployment. The loss of over £1 billion of EU replacement funds means that the Welsh Government is less able to prevent job losses or provide the same level of support for those impacted. Many businesses continue to face weakened trading conditions caused by significant problems with the trade and co-operation agreement with the European Union. Against this backdrop, and a smaller real-terms Welsh Government budget, I have worked to prioritise the young person's guarantee as far as possible to help protect the prospects of young people most at risk in the uncertain times that we face. The young person's guarantee draws on all programmes and provision across the training, education and employability sector to match the complex and diverse needs of young people across Wales. Since we launched the young person's guarantee, we have seen over 20,000 interventions delivered through our employability services alone, and 11,000 young people have started on Welsh Government-funded employability programmes. By April this year, there had already been over 18,600 all-age apprenticeship starts following the beginning of this Senedd term.

Young people have faced extraordinary circumstances and deep uncertainty in recent years. Rites of passage that many of us take for granted have been upended. We should pay tribute to the way that so many young people have adapted to plan for their future, support their peers, families and communities. That lived experience is something many of us would struggle to comprehend. It reinforces why we must listen to the voices of young people to ensure that the decisions that we take support their next steps. Those experiences and next steps will shape business operations, culture, health, education and our society in the years to come. 

The Prince's Trust have reported that more than 60 per cent of people aged 16 to 25 have said they're scared about their generation's future, with one in three concerned that their job prospects will never recover from the pandemic and the cost-of-living crisis. To help overcome these fears, we continue to run our Feed Your Positivity campaign, which aims to provide young people with positive messages and support to enable them to begin or change their life story. The campaign was a response to the impact of the COVID pandemic and has been designed to counter the negativity the economic backdrop injects into discussions around job prospects and challenges to mental health that young people are exposed to. Part of that campaign saw the Welsh Government sponsor October's Skills Cymru event—the first since the pandemic. I had the pleasure of seeing first hand the positive response from young people as they met local and national employers and high-quality education providers face to face, to gain expert career advice and to have a helping hand in planning their careers. This year saw over 5,000 young people and 45 exhibitors participate in Wales's largest free in-person careers, training and apprenticeship event.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the national conversation has been at the heart of the young person's guarantee, developing our ability to better understand the issues that young people face. At the beginning of last year, we set ourselves the challenge to address how to better reach young people, how to communicate in a way that wins and maintains trust.

We have found that generation Z, as some call them, are more prudent, serious and climate conscious than their predecessors, and that education, employment and their future prospects are top priorities. They are more likely to celebrate diversity, and are balancing their desire for constant connection and the latest technology with concerns about privacy and security. Unfortunately, it is also a generation that is facing significant mental health and confidence barriers. We are seeing more young people than ever who are economically inactive due to health reasons, not just here in Wales, but across the UK. What we can be sure of is that the scarring effect of the pandemic is beginning to take effect. That is why we have a continued focus on those who are most vulnerable. Focusing on those not in employment, education or training is crucial if we are to address the threat of a long tail of unemployment or economic inactivity in years to come. We have already acted decisively on ways to improve how we identify those young people who might need additional support the most. The refreshed youth engagement and progression framework, which Jeremy Miles, Lynne Neagle, Julie Morgan and I co-published in September, will play a key part in putting appropriate support or provision in place to ensure that young people are identified and supported before they reach a crisis point.

Jobs Growth Wales is already supporting over 3,000 young people—Jobs Growth Wales+, I should say, Dirprwy Lywydd—aiding their transition into the labour market and delivering catch-up activities for learners as a result of the impact of COVID. We've also linked up access to the basic income pilot and are looking at further collaboration to increase the package of support for those facing complex disadvantage. Over 2,700 young people have been supported by our front-line local authority-led service, Communities for Work+. That's up from 1,700 since my last statement. It is encouraging to see more young people come forward to receive one-to-one intensive employment support and training within their local community.

For those who have entrepreneurial ambitions, in a little over three months our young person's start-up grant already has 120 participants, working with business advisers to review their business ideas and help develop their business plans to apply for the grant. Seventy-five young people, in the brief period of time that the grant has been available, who were previously unemployed, have since been awarded a grant to help start their business. Every further education college in Wales now has a dedicated employment and enterprise bureau. They will be called different things in different colleges, but they are providing a breadth of employment support and opportunities to streamline the transition from learning to working.

We will continue to celebrate our success and promote Wales as a great place to live and work. That's why I was so pleased to see Wales's achievements at the World Skills UK finals in Cardiff last month, where, once again, Wales topped the leader board within the UK, with a total of 59 individuals winning awards. As shown in today's draft budget, the Welsh Government will continue to stand by, and stand up for, our young people. In the face of the worst financial outlook since devolution, I call again on the UK Government to do the same. The strength of our economy depends on acting with the right support now. Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Can I thank the Minister for his update on the young person's guarantee this afternoon? There has been some progress in securing opportunities for young people, either through education, training, employment or self-employment, and the Minister has highlighted some of the good practice that has taken place since the scheme was launched in November last year. When the Minister last gave a statement on the young person's guarantee, he was very frank about some of the practical barriers in getting people to engage in the service, and today's statement tells us a bit more about the work of Jobs Growth Wales+ in this area. The Minister also talks about further collaboration to increase the package of support for those facing complex disadvantage, so perhaps he could expand on the statement and tell us a bit more about the work that is being done here. Of course, as the young person's guarantee continues to deliver, it's vital that the views of young people across Wales are heard so that the Welsh Government can capture valued feedback about the delivery of the scheme and how it's supporting young people in practice. 

Now, today's statement says that, at the beginning of last year, the Welsh Government set itself the challenge to address how to better reach young people and communicate in a way that wins and maintains trust. However, the statement doesn't tell us how the Welsh Government is addressing that challenge, and so, I hope that the Minister will tell us how the Welsh Government is better reaching young people and communicating with them so that the young person's guarantee can adapt, learn lessons and roll out good practice. Earlier this year, the Minister told us that the young person's guarantee is not a static offer, and I'm pleased to see that, from today's statement, it's evolving and exploring new ways of offering opportunities to young people. The education offer is, of course, a crucial part of the young person's guarantee, and today's statement tells us that every further education college in Wales now has a dedicated employment and enterprise bureau. Whilst I welcome that action, FE colleges and work-based learning providers ultimately remain concerned about future finance, particularly as many are facing increased costs in terms of delivery. Given the importance of the sector to the success of the young person's guarantee, perhaps he could give us some more information regarding the level of resources for the FE sector from the Welsh Government's upcoming budget. 

Working with businesses is a critical part of the programme, and it's important that we see more and more employers buying into the scheme, so perhaps the Minister can tell us whether the number of businesses engaging has increased since the launch of the young person's guarantee last year. 

Now, the young person's start-up grant offers up to £2,000 to help young people to start their own business, and I'm pleased to see investment being made, because as the Minister knows, issues like accessing finance and developing business knowledge and confidence are often barriers to young people starting a business. I'd be grateful if the Minister could provide some more information on the take-up of that grant, and whether the grant is reaching people across Wales. For example, is there any more that can be done to reach young entrepreneurs in rural areas, for example? And how is the Welsh Government ensuring that schools and education providers are promoting the grant so that young people are aware of it?

Now, the success of the young person's guarantee can be measured not just by the number of young people that are now in education, employment and training, but also in its diversity and scope, and with that in mind, it's important that opportunities are being made available to young people with additional learning needs, for example. So perhaps the Minister could tell us a bit more about how the Welsh Government is working to ensure that young adults with additional needs and disabilities are not being left behind. 

Dirprwy Lywydd, it's vital that the resources supporting the young person's guarantee are sufficient, and today's statement makes it clear that the Welsh Government is prioritising the young person's guarantee as far as possible, but fails to tell us how. Therefore, perhaps the Minister can explain exactly how the Welsh Government's budget prioritises the young person's guarantee. Does this mean, then, that the budget for the young person's guarantee is actually being increased?

Finally, I just want to touch on green skills development and the need to ensure the development of apprenticeship frameworks and pathways so that young people can take advantage of the future green skills economy. Developing relationships with engineering businesses, the energy sector and industry is vital to develop a pipeline of talent for the future, so perhaps the Minister could also tell us how the Welsh Government is prioritising green skills development within the young person's guarantee umbrella so that we can learn more about how the Welsh Government is providing opportunities to young people in this area. 

So, in closing, can I thank the Minister for his update? It's clear that the young person's guarantee is providing young people with much-needed opportunities, and it's vital that work is done to ensure that the programme remains effective and supports as many people as possible. Diolch. 

Thank you for the series of questions and comments. Let me just go to some of the starting points he made. When it comes to how we're actually understanding who the young person's guarantee is reaching, and how we're actually dealing with a diverse range of young people, and the complexity, it's because of a number of things. So, some young people have a successful route already into work, education or training. High numbers of people go into post-16 education without the need for additional intervention—some of our challenge there is how we can help with the quality of what they choose, and making sure that the choices are appropriate for them, and they have a more open mind to the range of their career choices. That work actually takes place earlier on in education. When I had the pleasure of being before you in committee recently, we were talking about the need to go earlier into people's educational journey to make sure that people have a wider range of choices. There are still far too many professions where men and women—young boys and girls—make very different choices about what they can do. And actually, there's plenty of talent that isn't being taken advantage of. So, we think that we could do more in terms of getting to people earlier. 

When it comes to those people who we are concerned may not take, if you like, the traditional route that is—[Inaudible.]—by many people, that's why the work we're doing on the youth engagement and progression framework is really important; the earlier you can identify people who are at risk of not being in education, employment or training, the better to support them. That's multi-agency, often, as well. And then to make sure that, when we go into the guarantee itself, to understand the experiences they are having. So, in the national conversation, that's a really important part of understanding that you have traditional survey-based work, people who are more likely to fill in surveys, but also a specific focus group, not just to get into more detail, but some of those groups that are less likely to fill in those traditional surveys. So, for example, care-experienced young people, young parents, people with mental health and people with neurodiversity—dealing with your point again about people with different abilities and disabilities.

So, we've been doing that deliberately to understand who we're reaching and what we can do to improve the offer. That's both the offer itself and your point about communication, because with perhaps the exception of one person we might hear from later on, most of us can't claim to be young anymore, objectively. And actually, the way that people think and see the world is entirely different, and so for us to able to ask them and to listen to them about what makes a difference, where they're getting their information from, and that they're aware of what the guarantee offers and then how they're taking it up. So, the work and employment bureau is for people in further education who might not come out with a further training or education employment outcome out of that, and basing those bureaux, opportunities to bring employers and young people together in a setting that they're familiar with, is really important to be able to do that. 

So, it's one of the examples of how I want to communicate, as well as understanding where people get news, views and information from. I have to say, when I had the campaign entitled 'Feed your positivity', I wasn't sure whether I was talking about someone who was 50 and trying to pretend that I was really 15 again, but, actually, it came from direct evidence and feedback from young people themselves. So, I was reassured about that—that this was something that would be able to actually fit the people we're trying to reach as well, which is part of the point. It does require you to be, every now and again, a little uncomfortable, but that's the whole point of doing this. 

And then, on your point around business engagement, it's hard to say exactly the numbers of businesses, because through the whole guarantee, you've got business engaging at different points in school and further education—for example, the employment bureaux—as well as those that are providing opportunities through Jobs Growth Wales+, for example. I will try to find, in our annual report, if there's a better way to try to highlight the number of businesses that are being engaged; rather than saying it's difficult, to find a way to give you something meaningful, because I do intend to publish an annual report in the new year. And when it comes to the nature of the offer, we have listened to what young people have said, and we've changed our Jobs Growth Wales+ programme. It's now targeted at 16 to 18-year-olds, based on the former traineeship model and what previously happened in Jobs Growth Wales. So, we are deliberately changing the offer itself. 

On the barriers grant, I don't have information yet, but I will look to it to think about protected characteristics, background and geography for people who are taking that up, but it is—. Well, the figures I've told you about are within the first few months, so I wouldn't expect to have, necessarily, a wholly representative view at present, but I'll certainly look to how we can make that information available. 

And when it comes to budget choices—I see the Minister for Finance and Local Government is sat next to me—I won't go through all of the choices as she'll be setting them out in more detail, but in prioritisng within my department the young person's guarantee and various parts of it, it's meant that I had to make painful choices in other parts of the budget. And every Minister could stand up and talk about the priorities they've made and the fact that we've had to pay for that by making different choices somewhere else. That doesn't mean that those things aren't of value, it's just that if you choose things that are your bigger priorities, you've got to make other choices, too, because sadly, there isn't a spare £0.5 billion that the finance Minister has kept somewhere to throw around to keep us all happy. So, we've got really big, difficult choices, and you'll see those in the detail in what the finance Minister says when get to more detailed committee scrutiny in the new year as well. 

And on green skills, I expect to be publishing a net-zero action plan that will deal broadly with your points, and how that plays a part in the young person's guarantee early in 2023. 

Thank you to the Minister for his statement. 

Of course, the young person's guarantee is an important programme for Wales; I think it's fair to say that we all want to see this succeed. After all, we won't reach our targets around net zero, for example, unless we ensure that young people have the skills that they need in the future economy. Much, of course, has changed since it was first announced, however, there are always consistencies when there are economic downturns. One of those is the effect that it has on young people.

Now, much like the Prince's Trust, the End Child Poverty coalition found that 97 per cent of young people who they spoke to, aged 16 to 25, thought that the rising costs of living were a problem for young people today. Concerningly, 77 per cent of respondents said that thinking about the future and the cost-of-living crisis worries them a lot. I'm sure that a number of Members would have had first-hand testimony from NUS students on the steps of the Senedd today, calling for better support for students. One telling me that she couldn't afford to turn on the shower; another telling me that, after being on the steps of the Senedd, she'll only be returning to a cold house. Further figures, of course, 90 per cent of learners say that the cost of living has impacted their mental health; 42 per cent of learners are living on less than £100 per month after bills; but only 7 per cent agree that the Government has done enough.

Further, CollegesWales have voiced concerns regarding the Jobs Growth Wales+ scheme, as the allowance has not increased in line with the cost of living. They're worried that young people may be inclined to look for work in lower skilled areas instead, where the pay offer would be substantially more and therefore won't receive the support or education that their peers may be able to access. In a similar vein, we see the same issue with a reluctance from Welsh Government to increase the education maintenance allowance for those who need it most during this crisis. This, of course, is all interlinked with the young person's guarantee. So, would the Government consider increasing education allowances, to ensure that our young people are able to access education and training, and that we are maximising their skills and talents, not only for themselves but for wider society and the economy?

Now, the Social Mobility Foundation recently found that there is a £6,700 class pay gap in the UK. This means that working-class professionals are effectively working for free nearly one day a week in every seven, compared to their middle-class peers. This only further increases when working-class professionals are women, or from an ethnic minority background. Working-class people have to work significantly harder to achieve what is gifted to others. Meanwhile, the cost-of-living crisis and the pandemic have only further restricted social mobility. Young people from working-class backgrounds are much more likely to be needing this guarantee than their middle-class peers and, as CollegesWales have outlined, may be more inclined to take up employment offers due to stagnation in education allowances. Therefore, how is the Minister ensuring that the employment offered within the scheme is offering fair pay, helping to close the class pay gap, and ensure that those already at a disadvantage are not being funnelled into low-paid and precarious work?

And finally, it was important, of course, that young people's voices are heard within the impact assessment. The impact assessment also notes that an independent evaluation will be carried out at key points in the development and roll-out of the guarantee, including a gender budgeting review, and given that Oxfam Cymru and the Women's Equality Network Cymru found that the gender pay gap in Wales had increased between 2020 and 2022, and that women still face financial inequality in occupation segregation in the Welsh economy, when can this gender budgeting review of the young person's guarantee be expected? Has monitoring of the guarantee so far provided any interim data on gender differences within the scheme or revealed any trends regarding gendered occupational segregation? As I said when I opened my contribution, we all want to see this scheme succeed. The important thing is that it is reaching the people who need that extra bit of help and that people who are struggling as a result of the cost-of-living crisis are not being left at a disadvantage.

Thank you. On your point about the take-up of opportunities between different genders, I'll look again at that, but I want to be clear about the budget review that we've got and actually starting off the guarantee and understanding where we go, because in some parts of it, it'll be clear. We already collect data, for example, on who goes into further education, it's an easy thing to collect, as well as collecting the data on, for example, those people accessing different opportunities—Jobs Growth Wales+, ReAct+ and other employability programmes—we'll have the data on that. We'll also have some data that will understand a number of other programmes.

But I want to see if we're then reaching people, because it's part of the point about the young person's conversation. You know, there are young parents who are mums and dads, but, actually, we know that there's often a differential when it comes to things like childcare costs and what that does to people's practical ability to access opportunities. So, we'll look not just at who's accessing them, but what we're then doing to try and make sure that opportunities are opened up as well, to try to make sure that there's a meaningful response to the point that I understand that the Member is making. 

On your points about the cost-of-living crisis and young people, we've heard very directly from young people, both through the national conversation that we've had about the young person's guarantee, but also through the Cabinet sub-committee on the cost-of-living crisis. We heard just a few weeks ago from young people—and I made this point, I think, in committee, when you were there as well. They were speaking very directly about their own experiences, about the realities of changes to benefit rules, the reality of the cost-of-living crisis for themselves, and the choices that we hear far too often—the choice between heating, eating, and what that does for their physical well-being as well as their mental health and more general well-being as well. It's what is borne out in every survey of young people across Wales and the wider UK: there is a significant challenge being built up in young people's mental health and well-being post the pandemic, and reinforced by the challenges in the cost-of-living crisis. That is certainly one of the things that we're trying to take account of in what we're doing, because having employment, education or training is a protective characteristic to help support good mental health and well-being for young people. That goes then to your point about fair pay as well.

And, look, when it comes to Jobs Growth Wales+, we're not suggesting that the money we're providing is the only money that should be available; it is a wage subsidy to help make it more attractive for young people to gain an opportunity into the world of work, and over half the people who go into Jobs Growth Wales+ have a positive outcome at the end of it, whether that's going into further work or training, or, indeed, considering the opportunities for self employment themselves. The good news is that, in the initial review from Estyn, they're positive about the impact of that programme.

On your point about the class divide between professional pay, between working-class professionals and others, it would be helpful, I think, if you perhaps sent me a note that I can respond to properly, because I want to understand whether the point you're making is about access to opportunities, where we do know that, for lots of professions, who you know really matters—not just the grades you get, but who you know to practically get an opportunity, whether it's the work experience or whether it's the practical opportunities for starting jobs as well—or whether you're talking about starting pay depending on your own family background, or if you're talking about progression through work as well, because I know, again, from a previous life as well as this one, that all of those things matter. So, I'd want to understand the point you're making before responding properly.

And finally, Jenny Rathbone.

Thank you very much, and congratulations to the 59 people from Wales who won the WorldSkills award—that's really fantastic. I'll look them up, and see what it is they won for. 

It's also good to know that young people are more prudent, serious and climate conscious than their predecessors, but they also are struggling with, as you say, significant mental health and confidence barriers. On the work that you're doing to prioritise the young person's guarantee to protect the prospects of young people most at risk, those with disabilities often face the greatest challenges in finding suitable employment. Can the Minister tell us about the work of Engage to Change to match the more complex needs of young people so that all young people have the dignity of work? Because I think that they're the ones who are most likely to be struggling in the middle of a recession.

Yes. We've done some direct work with Engage to Change; I've met them directly myself as well to understand what more we can do. Part of the point is that, when you look at economic access for disabled people in every age sphere, it's significantly less than the rest of the population, so it's again one of the strands I was trying to respond to in some of Paul Davies's questions, about understanding who we need to work with and who we need to listen to to understand what we can do more successfully and to make sure that both employers, education and training providers—make sure that their provision is available and that they're proactively looking for it, as well as matching people with the opportunities that exist. You'll see that running through the different parts of what we're trying to do in the guarantee. I'd encourage the Member and anyone else, particularly if they have constituents who are coming through it, if they have a good or an indifferent experience of some of these programmes, to let me know, because the feedback directly is often helpful about understanding what works, as well as the organisations that we directly work with to try to make sure that lived experience informs what we do in communication and the design and delivery of our programmes. 

And on your starting point, which I'll finish with, the 59 Welsh winners in the WorldSkills finals, co-hosted around the UK; the sessions in Cardiff were part of that. And if the Member has difficulty finding out who the winners are—I'm sure she’ll have some constituents who are winners as well—then I'll be happy to help her find the information to make sure they receive congratulations from across the Chamber as well as the Member herself.

I thank the Minister.

Item 4 is the debate on a statement: the draft budget for 2023-24, and I call on the Minister for Finance and Local Government, Rebecca Evans.

I'm pleased to make a statement on the Welsh Government's draft budget for 2023-24, which has been laid this afternoon. This is a draft budget unlike any other that we've laid since the start of devolution. It's been one of the toughest that we've ever made, reflecting the perfect storm of economic and budgetary pressures faced in Wales, none of which are of our making.

A decade of austerity has been compounded by the ongoing and long-term impacts of Brexit, the pandemic and our recovery from it, the economic and humanitarian consequences of the war in Ukraine, and now an unprecedented cost-of-living crisis, which affects every aspect of daily life and business. The UK is in recession, inflation is at a 40-year high, and energy prices are soaring at the same time as standards of living are falling. Our economy and public services are very fragile and are not able to withstand further shocks. People and communities across Wales are grappling every day with the challenge of just getting by.

Our funding settlement is not sufficient to meet all of these extraordinary pressures, let alone our priorities in 2023-24. Even after the additional funding that we received in the autumn statement—£1.2 billion over two years—our settlement is still worth up to £3 billion less in real terms, and up to £1 billion less in 2023-24. And just as the UK was falling into recession, the UK Government took the incredible decision not to make any more capital funding available to stimulate our economy. The UK enters recession in the worst shape of any of the G7 economies, and our capital budget will be 8.1 per cent lower in real terms, falling far short of what we need to meet our ambitious plans.

Llywydd, in this budget process, Welsh Ministers have made some very difficult decisions to ensure every pound that we have invested makes the greatest positive impact. The 2023-24 draft budget builds on the indicative spending plans that we set out in last year's three-year Welsh spending review. In this budget process, all Ministers have worked hard to refocus funding from within existing plans to reprioritise it towards where it will have the greatest impact. Together with additional revenue funding provided through the autumn statement, we have made some additional allocations, focused on three main priorities: protecting front-line public services and our ambitions for the future as far as we possibly can; continuing to provide help to those most affected by the cost-of-living crisis; and supporting our economy through recessionary times.

Recognising our commitment to protecting front-line public services, this includes an extra £165 million for NHS Wales to help protect front-line services. An additional £227 million is being provided to local government through the settlement to help local authorities safeguard the important and wide range of services that they provide, including directly funding schools. As a result of the spending decisions made in relation to education in England, Wales received a consequential of £117 million a year in the autumn statement. Through the choices we have taken, this is being provided in full to local government. We will also provide funding, through the local government settlement and the health budget, to continue to deliver the real living wage in social care—an important investment in the people who work in social care and the wider health and care system. More detail about the provisional local government settlement will be available tomorrow.

Wales is proud to be a nation of sanctuary and has welcomed thousands of people fleeing the conflict in Ukraine. Over the last year, we have created and funded our own supersponsor route, which has helped almost 3,000 people come to Wales. In the absence of any firm funding from the UK Government for the second year of its Homes for Ukraine scheme, we will continue to provide funding to support our humanitarian response, making sure people from Ukraine in Wales receive a warm welcome and the support that they need while they're here. The draft budget includes an allocation of £40 million in 2023-24 and a further £20 million in 2024-25.

Of all the challenges facing Wales today, the cost-of-living crisis is the one that bites hardest for most people. The draft budget provides an additional £18.8 million for the discretionary assistance fund, which provides a lifeline for many tens of thousands of people facing financial hardship. An extra £10 million is invested in homelessness prevention and relief interventions across Wales.

The crisis facing our economy is also at the forefront of our minds. This draft budget contains £319 million for a package of non-domestic rates support for businesses in 2023-24, and a further £145 million for 2024-25. We're also investing £18 million for employability programmes to support people in work and help those who are without employment with the skills that they need to enter and to remain in work.

This is a budget that seeks to balance the short-term need to protect people in the face of the immediate cost-of-living crisis whilst also ensuring our public services remain sustainable in the longer term. We're today making an extra £40 million available to support public transport, helping create a sustainable and greener transport system. A £20 million capital grant will help local authorities decarbonise their buildings, building on the success of similar public sector schemes, such as the solar farm at Morriston Hospital in Swansea, which is now supplying a quarter of the hospital's power needs.

In addition to our funding allocations, details of the proposed rates for Welsh taxes for 2023-24 are published as part of this draft budget. There will be no change to any of the current rates for Welsh rates of income tax for 2023-24. This means that the three rates—the basic, higher and additional—will remain at 10p in the pound. Landfill disposal tax rates will be increased in line with retail price index forecast inflation, with effect from 1 April 2023. There will be no further changes to the rates and bands for main residential land transaction tax rates following those changes that were introduced on 10 October. Similarly, no changes are proposed to the higher residential or non-residential land transaction tax rates introduced on 22 December 2020. I am issuing a separate written statement today setting out further details about our tax plans.

We continue to publish an extensive suite of documentation as part of our draft budget package, enabling a high level of transparency for Senedd members, our public service partners, social partners, the third sector, and indeed the people of Wales. Our chief economist's report and the Wales infrastructure investment strategy project pipeline are part of this package, all of which are published today on the Welsh Government's website and shared with the Senedd. I am particularly proud that our budget improvement plan, created with the budget impact and improvement advisory group, maintains our commitment to provide transparency around improving budget and tax processes.

I'm very grateful to my Cabinet colleagues for their commitment and hard work during this process, and I also want to thank Siân Gwenllian, lead designated Member for the co-operation agreement, for the ongoing engagement and close working relationship during this process.

Llywydd, this is a draft budget made in hard times for hard times. It reflects the constraints of our funding settlement but not a lack of ambition. It maintains our commitment to prioritise the most vulnerable, and public services, whilst continuing to create a stronger, fairer and greener Wales for all.

Can I thank you, Minister, for your statement, as well as thanking you and your officials for meeting with me earlier to discuss the budget proposals? I thought it was very helpful, and I hope that the Minister and I can continue to work together through the budget process, particularly to consider some of the additional things that we on this side may wish to see included in the final budget next year.

Presiding Officer, I don't doubt that this is a difficult time for the Welsh Government as it seeks to plan its budget, and this is something that was referred to by the Minister in her statement. I know that these challenges will have budgetary impacts in the medium term at the very least, and that this means that there are difficult decisions ahead.

But what we need to see from the Welsh Government is a budget of delivery, because the current difficulties cannot be used as an excuse for not addressing the structural issues that we face here in Wales. What people's priorities are, and what my priorities are, include unblocking the social care system, tackling waiting times within the Welsh NHS, investing in councils and public services and boosting our economy, supporting our schools and young people, and, importantly, helping families with the cost-of-living crisis. I'm not for a moment suggesting that any of these challenges are easy; they are all things that we need to tackle over the longer term. But many of them existed before the current economic issues, and prior to the pandemic as well. They've just been exacerbated by the challenges that we've faced in recent years. 

Presiding Officer, I would now like to turn my attention to some of those priorities that I mentioned earlier. The package of support for businesses announced in the budget is much needed, and comes at a time of significant pressure as a result of things like inflation and energy costs. I particularly welcome the increase in the relief scheme for eligible businesses in the retail, leisure and hospitality sectors to 75 per cent. This now matches the support offered to such businesses in England, which was announced in the recent autumn statement. But whilst I welcome these announcements, they must also not detract from the debate that we need to be having, and that is how we more effectively balance the need for business taxation to help fund public services whilst providing an environment that encourages growth.  

Minister, are you confident that your planned reform of non-domestic rates, as previously announced, will actually encourage business creation and growth, or is there a risk of it just tinkering with the edges? And should we not be looking at more fundamental reforms whilst the NDR freeze is in place, such as reducing the multiplier for small businesses in the longer term, or taking a tapered approach to NDR for start-ups, so that we can encourage innovation and entrepreneurship as a way to stimulate the Welsh economy further?

Turning to local government and public services, the increased funding for councils over the next two years is much needed, but what is important is that we don't see additional moneys finding their way into council reserves, but that they use them to support services and residents, as well as unlocking the useable reserves they currently do have to help those most in need. We know that councils are facing cost pressures. Now is the time for them to use all of the levers at their disposal, because what is clear is that taxpayers do not have the capacity to pay more in council tax than they currently do. Yet, you already have, for example, Newport City Council suggesting that they may increase council tax by 9.5 per cent next year. And I'm sure others are looking at similar figures, which is completely unfair given the current financial climate. 

Minister, what assessment have you made of the adequacy of the funding in meeting the pressures faced by councils? And what discussions have you had with our local government colleagues about the importance of supporting families by keeping council tax as low as possible? Also, your statement made no reference to budgetary pressures as a result of public sector pay increases. So, could you outline whether councils will be expected to pay for this through the money that you have announced today, meaning less support will be available for public services?

Turning to social care, I think we all welcome the uplifting of funding to ensure that social care workers continue to receive the increased real living wage, but I note that workers will not receive this until June 2023. So, in light of the current cost-of-living pressures, as well as recruitment and retention issues within the sector, I wonder whether this could be brought forward to fill vacancies more quickly, as well as ensuring that social care staff and members receive the support that they deserve.

However, despite welcoming this announcement, it does seem as if it will be funded through the local government settlement and existing health and social care budgets. So, it's all still a little bit of smoke and mirrors. Despite the headline £70 million figure, it's not actually new money, meaning less will be available for front-line services. And, so, I would be interested to know how this will actually be funded. Will the local government and health portfolios share the burden equally, or will one portfolio fund a larger proportion?

On the subject of healthcare, the NHS in Wales is clearly facing a number of challenges at the current time. It is imperative that it receives the support that it needs. So, whilst the additional £165 million for front-line services is a positive step, there is a disappointing level of detail about how this will be allocated. For example, what transformational changes would you expect to see so that more people can be moved from much-needed hospital beds and into more appropriate care facilities, and how will staff shortages in our hospitals be met to ensure that hospitals meet safe staffing levels, so that we can better spend the millions of pounds that are currently spent on agency staff? And so, Minister, I think we would all appreciate more information in your response about the Welsh Government plans for the NHS and social care sectors.

The Welsh Government also allocates £3 million to the UK COVID-19 inquiry. Does the Minister not think that this funding would have been better spent on a Wales-specific inquiry instead, so that we can learn more about what we did well here in Wales, and what we could do better?

Finally, Presiding Officer, I would like to mention the cost-of-living crisis. I appreciate that more money has been allocated to the discretionary assistance fund, but I would like to ask whether this means that the eligibility criteria will be expanded, so that more people can access the scheme, particularly those who are not in receipt of benefits but find themselves in difficulties. And in these difficult times, many people across Wales will wonder whether the £800,000 allocated to Senedd reform could be better spent on providing additional cost-of-living help. And around that point, there needs to be some clarity, because there seems to be a commitment in the budget expenditure line table of £2.2 million, which is different to what's said in this narrative of £800,000.

In summary, I welcome the opportunity to debate the budget statement today, and I reaffirm what I said earlier: this has to be and it needs to be a budget of delivery. The Welsh Government needs to show that it has a plan to spend the money in a way that financially tackles the long-standing issues that we face in Wales, as well as responding to the issues we currently face. Thank you.

There can be few more difficult jobs at the moment in politics than being a finance Minister, in any Government in the world, so I do think that Rebecca Evans deserves our understanding in that regard. Because she, like every finance Minister, is facing complex, difficult challenges, trade-offs, which are really at the heart of any budget-setting process, made more difficult of course at the current time because of the global context. We face the horrendous trinity, don't we, of the war in Ukraine and its impact, the energy crisis, and, of course, the aftermath of the pandemic. And that comes, in the UK and in the Welsh context, of course, on the back of the lost decade, and more, of austerity. And as a result of that, our society, our public services, every part of our nation, really, are dealing with a situation where we have the opposite of resilience—we have fragility, we have brittleness. There's a sense in which things are breaking apart—systems, services, et cetera—because of the sustained and cumulative pressure on people who work in those services and on the people who rely on them.

And of course, there is a global context there as well, but politicians can make difficult situations better by the choices that they make, or they can make difficult situations even worse, and, unfortunately, we've had the latter time after time after time from the Conservative Government—most graphically of all recently in the mini-budget from hell, which drove an already parlous situation in terms of public finances almost through the floor, or literally through the floor at one point. There is the legacy that we have and that we have to deal with, and the crisis that we're facing, in many ways, is a crisis of Westminster's making—it is a Westminster crisis. I think that is absolutely true, and we should hold them to account for that.

We are to a great extent, of course, boxed in, aren't we, in this financial and political straightjacket that we are as a devolved institution within this very unequal state. It's almost ironically called the 'United Kingdom' because it's certainly not united or equal in any political or economic sense. And we face an inability—constraints—in terms of our sphere of autonomy in the financial realm as well: the ability to borrow flexibly. We don't even have the same powers as Scotland, do we, in terms of the ability to set bands and thresholds in terms of the income tax powers. So, there are many, many reasons why we should hold Westminster to account for the terrible situation that we find ourselves in, but the fact that we are limited in our power doesn't mean that we are completely powerless, of course. We do now have this institution—the Senedd, as our elected parliament—and we have a Government of our own, and we have to be as creative and agile as we can be within the constraints I've referred to.

In terms of the position that we are facing, of course, many of the pressures that the Welsh Government faces are also the same pressures that local government themselves are going to be facing, as has already been referred to. And it would be useful, I think, if we had a sense from the Government as to what you believe now—. We will obviously see the local government settlement detail in due course. What is the quantum of the funding gap that local government is facing following the publication of the draft budget? We've seen different local authorities quoting different figures, haven't we, in the last few days. Rhondda Cynon Taf—. The head of the WLGA—the leader of the WLGA—referring, I think, only this morning to a £47 million budget gap, and that's repeated authority by authority across Wales, and you tot up the sums and you come up to a very, very considerable figure indeed. So, it would be useful to get, certainly, acknowledgement from the Welsh Government that there will remain a funding gap. And those local authorities are going to face a very difficult financial decision-making challenge themselves, aren't they, between cutting services or hiking council tax, possibly by double figures, as Peter Fox referred to in some cases, or probably doing both in many cases as well.

To what extent has the Government, in that context, looked at things it can do to help local government, for example, lifting some of the expenditure pressures that they might be facing? Some local authorities have raised with me, for example, the money that they have to pass on to the new corporate joint committees. Obviously, we're not massive fans of the corporate joint committees on this side, but it's not the reason that I'm raising it in this context. Postponing some of these necessary financial commitments in order to give greater flexibility—. A constant theme from local government is, if only they could be given greater flexibility in some of the grants that they're offered. Even to the extent that you could bundle them all together in a global grant and allow them greater flexibility over time to deliver the same commitments, in terms of the national policy goals, but allow local government to flex a little bit while they're under the financial pressure that they are facing.

We have made the case that we believe that the Welsh Government itself needs to look at using the income tax powers that it has available to it. We realise this isn't a cost-free or a pain-free option; it has its own difficulties. But we are in a time of crisis, and we campaigned for those income tax powers for a reason, didn't we, so that we could avail ourselves of them at times precisely like these. And it strikes me, when we're talking about council tax, for example, it is certainly the case that the income tax powers, even given the constraints that we're under—we're not allowed to create new bands and change the thresholds—even then they are much more progressive than the council tax, which is the most regressive tax of all. We're obviously working together through the co-operation agreement to reform council tax, in order to make it fairer and to replace it possibly with a much fairer system of taxation overall, but, while we're here, isn't there an argument that rather than using council tax as one of the main mechanisms whereby new additional revenue is going to be raised in Wales, we should actually be looking at a progressive use of the income tax power?

Business rates: obviously huge pressure as well on small and medium-sized enterprises right throughout Wales, and it's absolutely the right thing to do, to provide additional support there. I just raise the question that the Wales Governance Centre has raised, which is: is this the only way or the best way that that help could be provided? Could it be provided in a more flexible, targeted way, rather than simply using a business rate subsidy?

In terms of your draft budget for next year, it would be very useful, going back to the theme of First Minister's questions today, if you could let us know what the assumption is that you've made in terms of public sector pay. The UK Government has made an assumption of 3 per cent, I believe, for the next financial year. What is the Welsh Government's assumption in terms of public sector pay? Because if it is as low as that, that will lead to a situation where we will almost inevitably be facing disputes next year again because it'll be below the projected inflation level.

I notice the additional money for public transport, which is very welcome. I'm wondering if you are able to share with us at this stage—and apologies if I've missed this already—what is the decision in terms of rail fare increases next year and whether part of that additional money is going to be used in order to limit the increase in rail fare below the current level of CPI, which is I think what it would normally rise by. 

In the context of the co-operation agreement, we're glad to see that the commitments have been protected as part of that. We look forward now, between the draft budget and the final budget, as set out in the co-operation agreement, to bringing wider influence to bear on the Welsh budget, and we will seek to be continuing the conversation in relation to the many themes that I've raised in my speech this afternoon.

It's obvious that the UK Government has not provided Wales with adequate funding to meet the current pressures. I appreciate that Welsh Ministers have had to make some very difficult decisions during the budgetary process. There was initial funding for Wales of £1.2 billion over two years in the autumn statement. Over half of this came from a decision made about a non-domestic rates policy in England, which has been replicated in Wales. Even after the additional funding in the autumn statement, our settlement is still worth up to £1 billion less next year in real terms. I agree with the Minister; the key priorities must be protecting front-line public services, continuing to provide help to those most affected by the cost-of-living crisis, and supporting our economy through recessionary times.

I welcome the commitment made previously by Peter Fox to produce a Conservative budget. Just a reminder, Peter, that the reduction in tax that your party has suggested needs to be shown on the expenditure line. I normally ask Plaid Cymru at this stage to produce an indicative independent Wales budget. Whilst we have not had that, we have had two suggestions from Plaid Cymru. One is to stop funding the state retirement pension, and the other is to not pay Wales's share of national debt. If breaking away absolved countries of their share of a national debt, we would have a world of microcountries.

Looking at the budget, on taxation, I ideologically would like to see an increase from 45 per cent to 50 per cent for higher income individuals. Those who have got the most money ought to be paying the most—45 per cent is very low for very rich people. But it would only take just over 11 per cent to become taxpayers in England rather than Wales for the increase to raise no money at all. If that went up to 15 per cent, we'd actually take less money. The problem we've got is our border with England. Lots of people who are very rich have houses both sides of the border, and sometimes they make a decision as to where their main residence will be. If we add 5 per cent, not many of them are going to choose their main residence in Wales.

I welcome the additional money for local government. Important as education and social services are, local government is an awful lot more than that. Education is a key economic driver. The more educated the workforce, the better paid they are. If you look at successful economies around the world, they do not pay subsidies; what they do is provide good-quality education, meaning there's a highly educated and skilled workforce. Social care is usually discussed in terms of delayed transfers out of hospital. Good-quality social care can also prevent people needing to go into hospital. I welcome the Welsh Government's commitment to paying social care workers the real living wage. I would go further and bring social care back to being staffed by directly employed local authority staff. 

We have, of course, the Brexit dividend. We no longer have to make farm basic payments. The basic payment scheme, which was a European Union scheme, no longer has to be followed. They were being paid per hectare of eligible land used for farming. The Welsh Government no longer needs to pay it, and that will release money to fund pay increases for those in the health service. Whilst I would abolish it, I am asking the Welsh Government to cap it. While I would cap it at the level of universal credit, because that's what the Government at Westminster and the Conservatives are saying is enough for people to live on, I do not expect the Government to go that far, but I am asking for a cap. For those people who have very large farms, we should stop stuffing their pockets with gold. 

These debates normally revolve around increasing and decreasing expenditure and are not about outcomes. We've got structural problems in Wales, and they need addressing. There is a belief held right the way across the Chamber that bigger organisations provide better services, despite the examples of the Welsh ambulance service, Natural Resources Wales, Digital Health and Care Wales and Betsi Cadwaladr health board. Instead of producing bigger and bigger organisations, we need to restructure organisations to the right size. An area that could be cut to provide the money is Help to Buy; effectively, all it does is help to inflate house prices. I don't believe enterprise zones are cost-effective and they should be reconsidered. Using money to bring branch factories into Wales has not worked. We've seen a number of them come, and we've seen most of them go. If we are using money for economic development, then a better use would be to support start-up companies.

Governments like to legislate, and the opposition would like to legislate. I am asking that priority is given to areas such as animal welfare, action on greyhound racing—legislation that costs little money.  

Finally, on capital expenditure, unused land could be sold off to generate capital receipts, as councils across Wales do. Every person who has led a council in this room will know that they've got land they didn't need, didn't use, and they then sold it on and used that money for the betterment of where they lived. What we have is land banking by the Welsh Government, and by the health service especially, in areas where selling that land could certainly do the Welsh economy a lot of good. Finally, I think the Government are moving in the right direction, but I'd like to see more things done. 

The Welsh budget should, of course, be about how the Welsh Government cuts its cloth, about its spending priorities, but listening to the exchange between the First Minister and the leader of the opposition this morning, I have to wonder why we're having this debate. Too often, I wonder why constantly the Welsh Government points its finger at Westminster rather than making this about the Welsh Government's priorities. This should be about the Welsh Government's priorities, and that's what this budget debate should be about. I couldn't follow the First Minister's logic earlier toda. He seems to want the UK Government to raise taxes so Wales can have more funding, but then makes the argument that he won't raise taxes in Wales because they're too high. We can't have it both ways, and it seems to me that what the First Minister is effectively saying is that he's not prepared to make decisions within his competence. 

The subject of the exchange this morning between Andrew R.T. Davies and the First Minister was about nurses' pay. Well, £133 million was spent on agency nurses in the 2021-22 financial year. If successive Labour-led Welsh Governments managed the workforce better, that funding could, if the Welsh Government chose, be spent on raising nurses' pay. Andrew R.T. Davies was making the point this morning about the tools that the Welsh Government has got to raise nurses' pay, the ability it's got to do that, but I would also point to the past 20 years as well. There are decisions that have been made here, due to the poor workforce within the Welsh NHS, that mean that the Welsh health budget does not have the capacity that it could have to raise nurses' pay, had it made decisions better. You can't possibly point the finger to Westminster when it comes to the management of the Welsh NHS workforce.

The health Minister also often makes the point about capital funding—a lack of capital funding for hospitals or regional surgical hubs. It's a lack of capital funding, when I've raised those questions previously. But we have to address the backlog within the Welsh NHS with some urgency. This has got to be a priority for the Welsh Government in its budget this year. We've got tens of thousands of people suffering in pain across Wales, waiting for more than two years for treatment, and that figure has virtually been wiped out in England. When it comes to capital spending, I'd ask the Minister for finance: are other Cabinet Ministers making better cases than the health Minister for capital spending within their portfolio? Surely health has to be priority for the Welsh Government, to reduce the backlog times. Tell us what's in the budget to deliver regional surgical hubs. And again, no finger-pointing to the Westminster Government here: we know that, for every £1 spent in England on health, there's a Barnett consequential of £1.20. England have 91 surgical hubs with more en route, and you have none.

I would ask the Welsh Government and the finance Minister to set out in this budget: what are you going to do to support reducing the waiting times in Wales, in terms of those who are waiting in pain for more than two years? What are you doing to reduce the backlog and support our Welsh NHS in this budget?

Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I'm losing my voice, I think. I can't overemphasise the significance of this statement. Announcing the budget is one of the highlights of the year in parliamentary terms every year, but the significance is even greater this year, as the Welsh Government has to budget in a difficult economic situation. I agree with the Minister about the economic mess that has been such a characteristic of the UK Conservative Government. It's left us poorer, hasn't it, in so many ways, with the poorest shouldering the greatest burden, and it’s left public coffers far emptier than they should be.

But despite that clear responsibility on Whitehall, the Welsh Government can't hide behind that entirely, either. This is the situation that we are facing; the cards have been dealt in this way, and it's the work of a Government that doesn't have its own sovereign Treasury, unfortunately, to prioritise within the spending envelope that it has. When that envelope has been set out so tightly, the work of setting the budget gets harder, and I acknowledge that, because, but that is the challenge.

I could spend some time painting another scenario where an independent Wales would have its own fiscal abilities, but that's for another day. What we do have to depend on now is innovation, fresh thinking, doing things differently. When we do face a strike from nurses, a strike by ambulance workers, both having reached their limit—not just now, but after years of a lack of financial support and otherwise—we do need to push the boundaries in terms of what's possible. We have to look at that bill of £133 million for agency nurses and think how can we bring that down, so that the budget today only has to find a few tens of millions to make a better wage offer to nurses, yes, to avoid a strike, something that we all and every nurse wants to avoid, but more than that, to show the appreciation that needs to be shown to nurses and that invests in the morale of the workforce.

That lack of morale, the numbers leaving nursing far too early, is a major part of what makes the NHS unsustainable, and it will be unsustainable if we continue to see the levels of sickness and sickness inequalities that we see in Wales year after year, decade after decade. Yes, the context of this budget is very, very difficult, but it hasn't always been so. The Minister paints a picture that specifically this year is an unprecedented budget, a crisis budget, where safeguarding front-line services is the priority. Of course, there is an inevitable element of that, but time and time again, the Labour Welsh Government has failed to change direction, has failed to innovate, specifically on something that means a great deal to me—it’s failed to invest in the transformation of services, genuine investment—genuine investment—in the preventative agenda, keeping us well, tackling inequalities genuinely. Without doing that, we will be in this situation again. We'll be facing this situation time and time again. And when the financial situation is tight, as it currently is, that cost of failing to transform the health of the nation is going to become an increasing burden, as it currently is. 

Of course hospitals are full, of course there are long queues of ambulances outside those hospitals. Of course social services are struggling. Perhaps one day we will have a budget that does try to cut that vicious cycle, rather than having to deal with the acute cases. This isn't that budget, I'm afraid. Yes, there is an economic mess, and yes, that mess, made by the Conservatives, is the basis for this difficult context, and the wider global context too, but that's why innovation by the Welsh Government is more important than ever before.

I do concur with Adam Price's assessment of your job, Minister. It is certainly the last job in the world that I would want to do, and I do thank you so much for your work and the engagement by you and your officials as well, certainly with me: thank you so much.

It feels like in these debates, it's always tempting to make a long list of things that we want, and I do also think it's important to look back on what has been funded—in my view, very progressive policies: universal basic income for care leavers, and an ongoing commitment to a UBI for transition; a publicly owned energy company; a review of our roads, with a focus possibly on that moving to increasing our public transport; a ban on single-use plastics. These are really important, progressive policies that do need to be funded, and there are others, I know. And I'll just slip in that I'm also hoping for a ban on greyhound racing, which, hopefully, won't cost us much.

But I think it's so important that we also use this time to think how we can look at the future in this time of crisis, as we've heard. These are absolutely exceptional times, and we need to think how we can focus in on the most needy in our society. I'm interested to hear from Mike Hedges that he knows of farmers with pockets full of gold. I'd love to be introduced to them, please. [Laughter.] In all seriousness, I would like to make a point that, actually, most of the farmers I know are struggling—they are really struggling—and it's really important that we make sure that we continue to support them.

The budget that I've seen so far, and I know there's more detail to come, for me—and I disagree here totally with Peter Fox—does focus on delivery. We've got funding for homelessness services increased; we've got a welcome funding for Ukrainian refugees, which should be funded by the UK Government; business rates support; an increase in the discretionary assistance fund for our poorest; and funding for our local authorities—they do need more, they are really facing severe cuts and really difficult choices—and there's the increase in funding for our care workers.

But you won't be surprised to know that I'm just going to finish with the absolute challenge in our health services. We've heard a lot about the strike that nurses will be undertaking. I understand that midwives have now made a decision to strike as well. These are really, really difficult times, and so, I would join with Plaid Cymru here in urging you to look at our tax-raising powers. I would like to see, for example, some modelling on how we can look at the upper bands of tax and what that could deliver to your budget in Wales. It's very easy for us to say, 'Spend the money,' but we need to be sure that that is funded. So, going ahead, I look forward to continuing to meet with you, Minister. I do hope that we're able to continue the really healthy discussions, and I look forward to the detail that I know will be coming soon in relation to some of those key areas. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Interesting contributions across the Chamber. I agree with Jane Dodds that we also need to look back at some of the achievements we've made, and I'd like to inform Lee Waters that the well-being of future generations commissioner was particularly praiseworthy of the radical roads review in the session we had yesterday in the Equality and Social Justice Committee. We absolutely do need to be thinking outside the box if we're going to deliver on the challenges that we have with less money.

I just wanted to pick up on what Rebecca Evans said—that we've got £3 billion less overall, and that's £1 billion less for the upcoming year in 2023-24. Does that mean that we'll have £2 billion less in our budget for 2024-25, under the current circumstances as known, because, obviously, that makes it even more challenging to look forward to the following year? And it's certainly the way in which Cardiff Council is approaching its challenges in that this year is very difficult, but I'm sure they'll be mightily relieved to hear about the additional millions that are going to be put into the local government settlement. But what they're saying is that the situation financially next year, the following year, 2024-25, is really, really frightening. So, we all need to think about how we're going to get through the next couple of years and, hopefully, have a change of tack after that. 

I agree with some of what Mike Hedges says, and not about the not-really very many millionaire farmers. I'm hoping that the sustainable farming scheme is going to deal with farmers who pollute the landscape—we can't have that; we can't be paying people to pollute our rivers. But I'm confident the sustainable farming scheme will deliver on our food security, which is absolutely essential.

I want to pick up on this point about 'no to land banking' by health boards—absolutely right—or by any other public bodies, except that we have to be precautionary that we're not going to need to buy that land back at a much higher price because of some future needs. So, I think what we need to do is, in line with 'Future Wales', we really do need to think very, very hard about what we're going to need, certainly over the next five years, in terms of future development of services, to ensure that the land that we currently control is not being given away when we may need it, for example, for affordable housing. 

I really welcome the nearly £19 million increase in the discretionary assistance fund, because that is absolutely crucial for anybody who has their washing machine break down. If they haven't got any resources, if they're struggling to even buy the food and pay their bills, they're never going to have the money to buy a new washing machine, and, without it, if you've got young children, it's a total disaster. But it could be something just as basic as having a bed for a child to sleep on as opposed to sleeping on the floor, or an electric blanket to keep an elderly person warm. These are really, really important things. I also applaud the £10 million more for the homeless. The First Minister had already told us about the rise and rise every single month in the numbers who are finding themselves chucked out of their homes. I visited Cardiff Council's self-contained bedsit accommodation, which is being developed in Adamstown to provide over 100 units for people who've previously been homeless. And, in this weather, it is completely terrifying to think of anybody sleeping outside. But, sadly, this is an increasing problem, and therefore we need to build more council housing, frankly, because otherwise, we're never going to deal with the numbers who desperately need new homes.

I welcome the £20 million capital grant for local authorities to decarbonise, because they're supposed to be—our aim is that they're all decarbonising their buildings by 2030. So, more projects like the solar farms at Morriston Hospital need to be headlined so that others are working out how they're going to invest in order to save on their energy bills. What resources, therefore, will be deployed to spread that word, and what reward can we also offer to home owners? Forty per cent of houses are owned by people who own them outright. What consideration has the Minister given to varying the amount of the land value transaction tax to reward those who decarbonise their homes, which will benefit future generations when they move on? 

Thank you for your draft budget statement, Minister. My focus, given my shadow portfolio, of course, will be on education, and I can only go on what’s in front of me.

Last month, we saw the UK Government’s autumn statement put young people at the forefront of their agenda, with an increase in funding for education. I called for this to be matched in Wales the week after the autumn statement was announced, so, initially, I was delighted to hear that, apparently, it would be matched in Wales. However, upon further reading, it wasn’t clear to me, Minister, if the £117 million figure that you received from the UK Government as a consequential of the English education budget increase, has been lumped in with the local government budget and is part of the £227 million figure in your statement, or, if the £117 million was a stand-alone figure, which is actually in addition to the £227 million announced for local government. So, some clarity on that would be greatly appreciated.

If the £117 million figure in the budget is falling in with the £227 million for local government, and the extra £117 million isn’t being ring-fenced specifically for education, then obviously, this raises some concerns. The money—the £117 million—intended for education won’t necessarily go into education, given all the extra pressures on our local authorities. As moneys potentially could be spent elsewhere, of course, and not go to where they are desperately needed in front-line education, and at a time when school budgets are stretched to the max and there are a lot of extra pressures on education in Wales, you have only announced, actually, £20 million to directly go to education in your draft budget statement. Also, does the £227 million or the £117 million announced today include money for the teachers’ pay increases, or will that come out of another pot of money?

Finally, Minister, would you be able to give a breakdown of those £227 million and £117 million figures, announced today, because I’m hoping that that will go some way to alleviating the concerns that are obviously raised by this statement today? But it is crucially important that the funding in education gets to where it’s most needed on the front line, so that it can help to relieve those severe pressures that schools are facing at the moment, and, of course, to fund the many directives put upon them by the Welsh Government.

The UK Government managed to react to the current pressures and announced extra money for education, which is going directly to education. In Wales, you have only managed to announce, as I have said, £20 million to directly go into education. The rest is not guaranteed to go into education. It seems that, once again, this draft budget statement is failing Welsh education in Wales.       

I want to start my contribution by mentioning housing. Saturday was world Human Rights Day, and we must ensure that everyone in Wales has a roof above their heads. I was pleased, therefore, to hear the Minister for Climate Change, in response to a question from me some weeks ago, saying unambiguously:

‘I would like the right to adequate housing to be more than just an idea, but to be an enforceable individual right’.

This is recognition that we need an increase in the housing stock. So, we must see real investment in public housing.

Research commissioned by Tai Pawb, Shelter Cymru and the Chartered Institute of Housing Cymru found that introducing the right to adequate housing would generate significant savings for the public purse. Indeed, the independent analysis identified benefits to the public purse worth £11.5 billion, against overall costs of £5 billion over a 30-year period. It's projected that those benefits could start to outweigh costs after just six years. It would save £5.5 billion in improving well-being, £2 billion from local council budgets, £1 billion for the NHS, £1 billion for the criminal justice system, and it would generate £1 billion in additional economic activity.

By investing in adequate housing for all, through spending on social and affordable housing in Wales, you could make vital and significant savings in the long run. So, today, I'd like to urge the Welsh Government to think differently about spending decisions. A slight increase in the social housing grant is welcomed, but we need to see much more going into this pot if we're to achieve our ambitions. It's also disappointing to see funding to achieve quality housing decrease by some 7.5 per cent from the original February indicative budget, on top of the squeeze brought about by huge inflation in the housing sector. How can you hope to achieve your ambitions across the board if you don't properly fund the most basic of essentials, housing? In the short term, it's also disappointing that we've seen no increase in the housing support grant. We've heard this Government rightly make a lot of noise about the UK Government's failure to increase the local housing allowance, but these complaints ring very hollow when we see that this Government is giving a flat settlement, a real-terms cut, for the housing support grant here. This is something we can do here in Wales, and we should be doing.

I note that the budget for building safety has been slashed by a third, from £9.5 million to £6 million, and I question whether that's a wise decision, and whether it's worth the risk and reputational damage for what is, in the grand scheme of things, a small amount.

I also want to make a plea in terms of our sea fishers and the industry in general. There was a presentation to the cross-party group on fisheries and aquaculture that gave us a disastrous picture of the sector, with the number of fish landed falling, income falling and jobs reducing. There is huge potential in the sector, but it’s about to be destroyed without significant support from our Government, and I urge you to make real investment in order to secure the survival of industries in this sector.

Finally, if I could talk about agriculture, I note that almost £9 million less will spent on the sustainable economic programme. In a period of uncertainty, as farmers have to adapt to the new agriculture Act, what they need is assurance and support in order to adapt successfully. So, can we have that assurance that there will be investment in the sector to enable Welsh farmers to adapt in good time? Thank you very much.

Huw Irranca-Davies.

No thanks.

It’s unlike you to turn down an opportunity like this.

I’m speaking this afternoon, but later on.

Okay. Apologies. Gareth Davies.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. I’d like to thank the Welsh Government, firstly, for listening to Welsh Conservative calls to increase pay for our hard-working social carers throughout Wales. It’s been a long time coming, but we’ve finally got there, so da iawn ti. And it’s high time they are rewarded for their commitment and dedication to supporting others. However, the industry is struggling from a series of problems that an increase in pay is unable to solve, unfortunately. Although further support to social care workers is a right move forward, the Government must focus on the retention of care workers.

A care home owner contacted me recently to express her frustration with how staff who have given dedicated service to residents over a sustained period of time are leaving to seek new employment due to no longer wanting to work in the care sector—and working conditions, hours required to work, and pay have all been factors in why they are leaving. Equally, the continued use of agency staff, as mentioned earlier in the debate, has left the industry unable to function as professionally as it should, and, as we have seen recently, has proven to show significant flaws in the care provided. Increased pay will begin to soften some of the problems, but it falls on the Welsh Government to encourage carers not to work for an agency, but to seek care as a fulfilling and rewarding career.

I firmly believe that not enough is being done to encourage young people that care is a vocation for life, and not just a job that follows on from A-level or BTEC qualifications at school. Therefore, this budget shows that one problem has been addressed, but the roots of the issue start at schools, and I call on the Welsh Government to ensure that care is not just seen as a job. Equally, it should be pushed that it is a career that has multiple routes for progression and further training opportunities if staff so wish to pursue those options. You hear me a lot banging on about the fact that I worked in the NHS for 11 years, and that’s true; prior to that I worked in social care, and that was a big concern among a lot of staff, particularly ones who aspired to have promotion in their field of work, and career progression, and they felt that they were hitting a glass ceiling because the training opportunities weren’t available on an internal basis. So, I'd like the Minister please to address that in responding to the debate: what aspect of this budget in regard to social care will incorporate some of those training needs that are needed in the sector, so that we're indeed giving the most vulnerable people in our society the best care and treatment they deserve by people who feel rewarded in those careers? Thank you very much. 

The draft budget is being set in some of the most challenging of times in recent memory for Welsh Government, and I welcome the way in which Welsh Government has continued to provide support throughout the cost-of-living crisis to those most in need, in spite of too often being handcuffed by Westminster. To be consistent, I'm going to make a plea for highway resilience funding to be put back in place for councils to be able to maintain our network. We cannot continue to fund new designated routes or roads when we need to maintain our existing network of roads, pavements and bridges that are deteriorating rapidly. They're also used for active travel, for walking, cycling, buses, as well as motor vehicles.

We must be honest about the reality the Senedd is facing, the reality our local authorities are facing, and the reality our residents are facing. Twelve years of austerity has withered the fabric of this country, making Wales and the UK poorer, impacting on public services, health, transport, housing, welfare, local authority budgets, arts and culture. All were led like lambs to the slaughter, all to be sacrificed on the altar of austerity. This, we were told by Westminster, was a price worth paying in order to restore economic credibility. The Tory Government waxed lyrical about how their scorched earth policy to the building blocks of our society would succeed in bringing down the debt, except it catastrophically failed, even by their own measures. Debt as a percentage of gross domestic product is now at its highest rate for more than 60 years.

The results of the last 12 years are impossible to escape: the worst fall in living standards since records began; real-term wage cuts for workers, the NHS on the brink, and a demoralised public sector workforce; a housing market completely out of control; and more food banks than branches of McDonalds. It is truly worthy of eternal shame and one only sustained by divide-and-rule tactics, designed to put worker against worker, industry against industry, and person against person. But, in the face of that, we must take hope from the rising unity of workers and unions across this country, forced into strike action to defend their pay and working conditions. 

The UK Government completely and utterly squandered its years of low interest rates. Instead of cutting, they could and should have invested in those building blocks—in a nationalised public transport network, in new social housing, in properly funded public services, and in a green new deal. It is economically illiterate to do otherwise. Many forms of public spending end up returning far more economic value than they initially cost. Metaphorically speaking, the UK Government had the chance to fix the roof while the sun was shining. Instead, they simply ripped up even more tiles. 

We have to be honest here in Wales about too often being unable to have made those investments ourselves. Comparatively speaking, we essentially have no substantial ability to borrow to invest because of Westminster-imposed borrowing restrictions. From refusing to provide Wales with a penny of HS2 funding to threatening to overrule the Welsh Government on trade union legislation, in this Chamber we have first-hand experience of the way in which Wales is shortchanged by a UK Government who seem to have no problem whatsoever with undermining the union.

Unlike the UK Government, who made a choice not to borrow to invest, the Welsh Government is all too often restricted from even having that choice. The fact is that without prudential borrowing powers Wales will continue to fall behind, and we will continue to be hamstrung in our own ability to invest in the future of our nation. So, it's no good us simply hoping for a change of Government in Westminster; we must embrace every opportunity we have here in Wales to lead, but we need the tools to be able to lead properly, and that is why prudential borrowing is so important. 

In that regard, I hope that, moving forward, we can use the budget-setting process as a platform on which to build a cross-party Senedd campaign for Welsh prudential borrowing powers, alongside an updated Welsh Government case for those powers. And I want Wales to maximise its ability to craft our own unique future, led by a Government with the financial power to make transformational change that improves living standards for all, and let's build a greener, fairer Wales that is fit for the challenges of our future. Diolch. 

Diolch, Weinidog. I would like to echo many of the comments. It's not an easy decision, and, in very many ways, it's a very sad budget. You look at it and think of the difficult decisions that are having to be made, but also knowing that, for many people, it's not going to make a huge difference to their lives.

Someone wrote to me this week: 'Nothing is getting better; everything is getting worse day by day. Even some of the handouts that I have received are just not making any difference. What will change for me and what promises can you make?' Well, it's extremely difficult, because, even looking at this budget, the questions that we are being asked are not going to be solved or addressed. There are some things, of course, that will be beneficial, but, overall, our hands are still tied. And I do hope that, whilst we are emphasising the problems because of the UK Government's prioritisations—and the wrong priorities, I would say, in terms of the UK Government—I hope those representations are being made now to the shadow Labour UK Government, because, obviously, they, if they are successful in the next general election, will be that UK Government, and we would need to see that being re-addressed here in Wales, so that we are able to take account here and be properly funded for some of the things that we are not at the moment. All those lies—and they were lies—during the Brexit campaign of how much funding would come to Wales—well, where is that money now, because certainly our communities are not benefiting from those promises that were made?

I would like to echo just some of the comments in terms of teachers' pay. Crucially, we know that teachers' pay is a contentious issue and that they are still not happy and are balloting at present. Well, there is money in the budget in terms of retention, with the recruit, recover and raise standards programme, which is of course welcome. But we know that we are losing teachers in the first five years in the profession. We know, and have been told consistently, that pay is a real issue, so how is this budget going to address that?

I also welcome the announcement around public transport. Is this going to be specifically for young people? We've seen that a barrier to getting to schools or extracurricular activities has been the cost of transport, so will some of this be allocated specifically to support our young people?

I am looking forward to looking in greater detail at the budget, but from glancing at those that have been released now, I see, in terms of culture and sport specifically, that there are some cuts to those budgets. I just wondered—. In terms of looking specifically there, that's quite a small proportion of the budget but makes a huge difference in terms of what those organisations are able to do. And following on from the theme of my colleague Rhun ap Iorwerth in terms of prevention, many of the sports and cultural facilities do have that well-being. So, tackling obesity, for instance, it's really crucial in terms of participation. For mental health, a number of other programmes—we've seen the waiting list for CAMHS and so on—but the benefit of some of the sports and cultural activities are equally felt. And I do worry to see those cuts, especially when we know, looking at the Arts Council of Wales's budget as well, we've been told consistently, as a culture committee, of that increase of costs in terms of maintaining the services that are currently there.

So, I would just like to see how have the decisions been measured against the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and the well-being goals, all of those, because it's still very much, in my mind, a budget that is in silos rather than one that actually brings the future generations Act to life in terms of thinking, cross-Government, what impact certain cuts would then have on consequences, for instance, for health.

The other key thing to emphasise is obviously to welcome the free school meals roll-out and the continuation of that as part of our co-operation agreement. I mentioned that the budget is a sad one in many ways, because we are talking about helping people just be able to have their basic needs met—to be able to have a warm meal at least once a day; to be able to have a warm home. So, I think the fact that so much money has to be allocated with the discretionary assistance fund—yes, it's welcome, but, again, it's a very tragic reflection of our society. It shows that difficult decisions will be required, but, in terms of the money that is there, I do hope that we will be able to work together, so that it's not just responding to urgent need, but also investing in the future and prevention, because I believe that a more equal and fairer Wales is possible. I think this budget does have some element of that, but there is so much more that we need to be doing together and not just blame Westminster; there are decisions that can be taken here in Wales that need to be taken.

Because I'm going to be talking about properties, I'll declare my own interest in terms of property ownership.

I think it's probably one of the most difficult budgets for us all that we, as Members here, have faced. I've not heard too much about the awful two years plus that we went through of the pandemic. When everybody's slating the UK Government, we cannot forget that I think it was about £8.5 billion that came into Wales. When people talk about austerity, when you think and consider the number of businesses that were supported by the UK Government with furlough schemes, and then who would have thought, just as we were coming out of that dark period—and, in some ways, the pandemic still affects members of our staff, and, in turn, affects our economy—but, who would have thought that then the war in Ukraine, a war that we thought we'd seen the end of after the second world war, that we wouldn't see war in Europe again? So, put this together with the fact of our energy crisis and the food price pressures and everything, and I don't know how anyone could ever have estimated that this would be an easy budget, either for the UK Government or indeed the Welsh Government, but we have to put this in perspective, and to just keeping knocking the UK Government doesn't really sort it, in my opinion.

We've got to also remember that this is taxpayers' money—hard-working taxpayers. This isn't Welsh Government money; it belongs to the taxpayers, and yet, in this time of crisis and this cost-of-living crisis and homelessness like nothing I've ever known before in Wales, we see the Wales state energy company, Ynni Cymru, and we talk about £814,000 on setting up a company and then another—[Interruption.]

Will the Member take an intervention?

Yes, sorry, Jack.

Thank you, Janet. Just referring back to your statement on taxpayers' money, I just wondered if you agree with me that the PPE scandal in Westminster, where they wasted taxpayers' money and just gave it to their friends in the Lords, do you agree with me that that is an actual disgrace, and that that could have been spent better in the UK and in Wales?

At the end of the day, Jack, we had a massive emergency on our hands. We had to protect—[Interruption.] Jack, we had to protect—. It's fair to say that the UK Government just wanted to protect the most vulnerable in dealing with the pandemic. How would you have done it any differently? [Interruption.] Yes, but you didn't—[Interruption.] You did not—[Interruption.]

Allow Janet Finch-Saunders to carry on. Can we allow Janet Finch-Saunders to carry on?

Thank you, Llywydd. I know it's Christmas nearly, and I know it's pantomime season, but this budget is actually a very serious issue.

Now, if we want to be encouraging renewable energy production in Wales, we should be empowering local businesses to achieve it. The Welsh Government could do this by reintroducing the business rate relief that you took away from our privately owned hydro power schemes. That means that private hydro schemes would not have to consider closing down; it would make Wales a far more appealing location for renewable power generation.

We need a marine development plan for Wales, which has already been endorsed by the Senedd through my own legislative proposal. Clearly, more needs to be done here. Again, from the Finance Committee's report, some stakeholders noted the lack of progress in marine recovery, and want to see this implemented and escalated.

We also need to be providing leadership on creating low-carbon homes. Scotland have a hydrogen neighbourhood by 2023, and England a hydrogen village by 2025. We have no such commitment here. Already, Gateshead, in north-east England, has hydrogen homes. We are so behind, and these are the kinds of initiatives we need. We need to see a clear pledge to back hydrogen in this budget, otherwise Wales will fall even further behind Great Britain. 

Now, remaining on the topic of housing, the scale of homelessness in Wales, reflected in the huge number of people in emergency or temporary accommodation, is putting acute pressure on all our services and our staff responsible for delivering them. Now, this was a consistent theme of the Finance Committee's report on the draft budget. They noted that, according to one stakeholder, homelessness has been a huge challenge, identifying a £1 million funding gap. They're also contending with implementation of the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016, and trying to engage in the planned transition to rapid rehousing. We've said it so many times on these benches; it's just leading to a major increase in eviction notices and demand for temporary accommodation, resulting in local authority budgets for homelessness, such as those in my own local authority, increasing rapidly.

If housing support providers are unable to maintain their service provision, the negative impact will not be limited to homelessness, but will also be felt by health, social care, and criminal justice services. Community Housing Cymru have said that they need more resources to retrain and recruit more staff, expand provision, and maintain the delivery of these critical services. Research conducted by Cardiff Metropolitan University has demonstrated that homelessness and housing support services deliver significant benefits to other public services, with a net saving of £1.40 for every £1 invested in the housing support grant. However, financial pressures on emergency housing services are being made worse by the Welsh Labour Government's Renting Homes (Wales) Act. It's just making everybody's job more arduous. This Act should be suspended immediately, and this would ultimately reduce the pressure on housing, local authority and health budgets.

Clearly, the Welsh Government needs to assess its priorities. With a need to be fiscally responsible, it would be better for the state to do a few things well than do many things badly. This budget is going to be another test as to whether you do really tackle the housing and climate crisis effectively. I feel that you will fail, but let me just say on behalf of all those people who come to my office for help—and hopefully we try and help them, but we cannot conjure houses up—please, Welsh Government, every single one of you as Cabinet Ministers, you have a duty to the people of Wales to build the houses and bring back the empty houses that are in stock. Stop concentrating on second homes and things like that. You really, really now need to start putting together a plan, and what's more, what is needed here in this Government is a strategic rented social housing plan, because I've never ever in my lifetime witnessed the lack of ambition in providing those much needed homes for those requiring social housing. Thank you.

I thank the Minister for bringing forward today's statement on the draft budget. I gather I'm probably towards the end of this debate today, and there's been quite a range of contributions, and listening to a number of the contributions, you'd think we'd be living in a time and a place that is pretty dire. But I just want to remind us all that we are probably living in one of the greatest times in the human race to be alive, and in one of the greatest countries on earth. At the moment, we're living in a time when people are living longer and healthier lives than ever before. We have a freedom of democracy and rule of law in this country that allow us to have this kind of robust debate, to disagree, but also to get along as well. We live in a country of great opportunity, of enterprise, of business, of near full employment at the moment across the United Kingdom—

Will you take an intervention?

Certainly, I'd love to hear the intervention.

I would ask you which country you're talking about actually—[Interruption.] But do you recognise that life expectancy has been falling for the first time in many, many generations?

We're living in a place and a time where it's better to be alive than ever before, and we've heard contributions today that seem so negative about this country. It's pretty depressing. We have a welfare system that is one of the most supportive in the world, and we're making great strides towards a sustainable and green country across the United Kingdom and here in Wales. And of course, there are parts of this budget statement here today that I completely disagree with, and I would want to see things completely different, but I'm optimistic about the future of the United Kingdom and Wales's place within the United Kingdom as well. I just wanted to make that point, Llywydd, because I was getting pretty depressed listening to contributions from across the Chamber this afternoon.

But, Llywydd, you won't be surprised and the Minister won't be surprised that the meat of my contribution today is going to be in relation to local government and our fantastic councils that are at the forefront of delivering these really important local services that our communities rely on. Minister, I appreciate that it's a budget made during challenging times, as has been expressed, and you've made a welcome announcement of an additional £227 million to be provided to local government through the settlement. You've also stated today that funding will be provided to deliver the real living wage in social care. I just wanted to be clear as to whether that £227 million is the money you're talking about to deliver that real living wage or whether there is additional money to enable local authorities to do that.

There are a couple of other points where I'd like clarity, if you don't mind, as well. Clearly, there's a big proportion of this local government settlement increase that will be used for those staffing cost increases. So, I just wonder, in your mind, what proportion of that £227 million you expect to enable local authorities to survive and deliver business as usual versus what proportion of that money you think councils will be able to use to deliver additional services in our communities.  

Would you take an intervention?

I'd welcome an intervention. Yes, no problem at all. 

Thank you very much. You mentioned £227 million for local government, but of course there is the £31 billion Government loans scheme that was just handed back. They didn't pursue it, they just threw our money away. They're just completely careless with public money. And that's on top of the £200 million PPE scandal. So, that makes a total of £31.2 billion on those two items alone, where you've actually failed as a Tory Government to be custodians of the public purse.

I'm sure that's a very helpful contribution, Llywydd. We're here to scrutinise and talk about the Welsh Government budget and statement made here today. I'm sure the Member would like to get elected to Westminster if she wants to scrutinise the Westminster budget in the future. 

Secondly, Minister, there are some serious questions to ask here about your consideration of council reserves, in terms of the settlement that's going to be announced tomorrow and what part that has played in your decision-making process.

And finally, Minister, in terms of the provision for local government settlement announcement to be made tomorrow, I wonder how discussions with local government colleagues have influenced so far any changes to the funding formula. I know it's something you've looked at with the WLGA and will continue to look at, I'm sure, but I was reminded again earlier this week that, for example, Denbighshire County Council receives on average 17 per cent more per head than a neighbouring local authority in north Wales with a seemingly very similar demographic. How is work progressing in terms of the funding formula? How has that influenced your intended settlement announcement that you're going to make tomorrow? Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. 

The Minister for finance now to reply to the debate. Rebecca Evans.

Diolch, Llywydd, and thank you to all colleagues for what I think has been a really constructive set of comments and representations this afternoon. And I know that, once colleagues have had the chance to digest the full suite of budget information, there will inevitably be lots more questions and comments, so I'm more than happy to continue that dialogue as we move forward towards the publication of the final budget next year.

So, as I said in my opening statement, this is very much a draft budget that is unlike any other that we've laid since the start of devolution, and I think that colleagues have recognised the difficult choices that we've faced in delivering it. But we haven't shied away from difficult decisions and, despite the difficult times that we are in, we have delivered a budget for Wales that is grounded in our Welsh values of social, economic and environmental justice. And we've also sought to maximise every penny available to support the Wales of today whilst also laying the foundations for the Wales of tomorrow.

There were lots of detailed questions about some of my colleagues' portfolio areas, which I know committees will want to get into in more detail, around housing, energy, social care, transport and health, for example, so I'll just try to respond to as much as I can within the time available to me this afternoon, but there will be lots more opportunities for scrutiny and discussion. 

The overall context was set out, and I know a number of colleagues have referred to it and how difficult it is. And even with the additional funding made available through the autumn statement of £1.2 billion over two years, it still doesn't begin, really, to fill the gap that there is in terms of public services, so there have been some really difficult choices made. Our focus really has been on protecting front-line services and, of course, our ambitions for the future in our programme for government, continuing to provide help to those who are in need most as a result of the crises that we're facing, and also supporting our economy through recessionary times.

One of the things that I am disappointed not to be able to do is make further significant capital allocations. That was a matter of deep regret, that there was no further capital as a result of the autumn statement. Our capital budget will be 8.1 per cent lower in 2024-25 than in the current year. And, of course, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, the London School of Economics Growth Commission and the UK Government's own National Infrastructure Commission have all said that investment in infrastructure and investment in skills absolutely is the way in which we should be growing the economy and investing at this point. So, that is particularly of concern.

Some interesting points were made about releasing land, so just to confirm that the Welsh Government does release land from time to time. For example, within this financial year, there's been a release of land from within the economy portfolio; you'll see details of that within the supplementary budget, which will be published in February. We do acquire and release land from time to time. In terms of Welsh Government land, though, we are taking a different approach following the setting up of the land division, and that's very much about looking at the land that Welsh Government holds and first and foremost asking ourselves is this land that could be used for housing, is this land that could be used to help develop our social housing in Wales. We are making some progress on that as well.

Turning to the reprioritisation exercise that we undertook, colleagues will have heard me say that that released £87.4 million from our existing plans. That was really about refocusing to those areas where we think the need is greatest. That's been a really painful exercise for all colleagues, and I know that committees will get into that in more detail. But I just thought I'd share with you how we undertook that exercise. Certain areas were given a degree of protection from reprioritisation. They included the revenue support grant for local authorities in the finance and local government main expenditure group, NHS and social care funding under the health and social services MEG, and part of the education MEG as well. That was important to us because those are the areas where you see the front-line service delivery, which is exactly what we're trying to support through the reprioritisation.

Some Ministers have gone to areas that are demand led and had the potential to have surplus funding, and released funding, depending on what they understand uptake to be. Other options have been about reviewing contracts; some could be terminated or relet. Our e-procurement contract, for example, was coming to an end, and we were able to reprocure that at a cheaper cost. Other approaches by Ministers have been about looking to issue a kind of blanket reduction across other parts of the MEG as well. So, there have been different approaches to get us to where we are today. But inevitably, I think that that leads us then to some real difficulties in terms of looking at how we will deliver things.

You will see in the budget, and in our Wales infrastructure investment strategies pipeline, which sits underneath it, that there are areas where we will have to deliver potentially over a longer period, or not deliver as much. Sustainable communities for learning, for example, could be affected by the current economic conditions, including high inflation and, of course, delays in the supply chains affecting the building sector. We do remain committed to investing more than £1.5 billion in the next phase of delivery, but of course, the economic conditions may mean that we end up delivering less for that money. So, those are just to give a little bit of flavour, really, to the difficult choices that we've had to make and what the implications might be.

Thinking ahead now to the final budget, I can't see any scope for allocating further funding based on the way in which we've taken our approach to reserves for next year. What we can do, of course, is to make changes between the draft budget and the final budget, thinking of the recommendations that will come forward from committees and the representations that we will have from colleagues within the Senedd, and, of course, organisations outside it. Because our approach, as colleagues will remember, which we set out at the start of the three-year spending review, was not to hold unallocated DEL in the next financial year, but to manage the pressures within the year from within the Wales reserve. You'll see from the plans published today that plans for next year already draw down £38 million of the potential £125 million annual drawdown, so things are extremely tight, and, of course, we maintain our capital overprogramme. Next year, that will be £98.5 million, so no general capital will be available to allocate. I do intend to make allocations in respect of financial transactions capital between the draft and the final budget, however. So, again, that will be an area for some further discussion.

Thinking about the local government settlement in particular, there were some particular questions there. I just want to make the point that the £227 million for next year is obviously additional funding, but that does include the £117 million that we received in consequential funding in the autumn statement in respect of education. It also includes local government's share of the £70 million in respect of the real living wage for social care workers. Not all of it goes through local government, of course, some goes through the health MEG as well. That said, I think the overall settlement might be a little bit more generous than local government was expecting, or certainly not as bad as local government was fearing, but, of course, the details of that will be published tomorrow.

Local government has been very clear all along that its big pressures are education and social care, so we expect local government to want to put additional funding in those particular areas. One of the reasons why things are different here is because, of course, we continue to fund schools through local government, rather than funding schools directly as they do across the border. But even with that, we have provided additional funding through the education MEG for the work that they're doing on the recruit and raise standards side of things, additional funding for the pupil deprivation grant, recognising how important that is for families who may be struggling, and also additional funding in respect of delivering our additional learning needs work as well, which is really important.

On the health side of things, the £165 million uplift will be targeted to protecting core NHS services. It does mean that there will be some refocusing of spending in other areas, for example, such as establishing the NHS executive. The impact there would be a reduction in scope and capacity over the short to medium term. That's another example of the decisions that have been taken by colleagues, but it's very much about recognising the impact of inflation on the NHS.

I was really pleased to make the announcement in respect of non-domestic rates to support businesses across Wales. Obviously, we've frozen the multiplier, we've provided transitional relief to support businesses across the tax base that have been affected by the revaluation in April 2023. I won't talk too much about that, because I can see my time is running out, and we have the next item of business this afternoon to debate that, but we're also extending and enhancing the existing relief for retail, leisure and hospitality. What I will say there is it cost us more to do the same thing in Wales because of the nature of our tax base, but we were able to provide what is a very, very good package, and that is drawing on some funding that we'd already allocated within the non-domestic rates space.

And then, just finally, I can confirm that the funding that we had in consequentials from the UK Government in respect of social care and education has all been passed on in full and, actually, has gone over and above the funding that we received in consequentials, because I know that's of particular interest to many colleagues. I could go on forever, but my time is up. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister, for your statement on the budget.

The next item, therefor, is item 5: the Non-Domestic Rating (Chargeable Amounts) (Wales) Regulations 2022, and I call on the Minister for finance once again to move the motion. Rebecca Evans.

Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion to approve the Non-Domestic Rating (Chargeable Amounts) (Wales) Regulations 2022. The regulations provide transitional relief to ratepayers with increased liabilities as a result of the non-domestic rating revaluation taking effect on 1 April 2023. Relief will be provided in a similar way to the scheme we applied following the 2017 revaluation, but with eligibility extended across the whole of the tax base. This universal approach will provide greater clarity to ratepayers in Wales. Alongside our permanent reliefs and the other interventions I've announced as part of the draft budget, the regulations mean that we'll be providing over £550 million of fully funded rate support in 2023-24. I'm grateful to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for its consideration of the regulations. No issues have been raised. I therefore ask Members to approve the regulations today.

Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you, Llywydd. We considered these regulations yesterday afternoon and our report has also been laid to inform Membesr this afternoon.

These regulations prescribe rules to be used to calculate the chargeable amount for hereditaments with increased non-domestic rates liability of over £300, as a result of the increase in rateable value of their hereditament, following the compilation of the new NDR rating list on 1 April 2023. Following a request from the Minister, we expedited our scrutiny of the regulations so the debate could happen this afternoon and the Senedd could be asked to approve the regulations so that they may be in force prior to 1 January of the year of a revaluation. Our report contains one merits reporting point. We've noted the phased introduction of the increase in NDR liability from 1 April 2023 onwards, and the cost of this to the Welsh Government as set out in the regulatory impact assessment, which totals £112.8 million over a two-year period.

Minister, we've received several requests from Welsh Ministers in the past few weeks to expedite scrutiny of regulations so that debates may happen before the Senedd breaks for its Christmas recess. We understand that, on this occasion, the delay was caused because the Welsh Government needed further information from the UK Government's autumn statement, and that's understandable. We try to respond positively to every request from the Welsh Government to expedite our scrutiny, but, in my remarks today, if I might take the opportunity just to gently remind the Welsh Government that really good scrutiny is really, really important, as this afternoon's discussions on subsequent regulations will illustrate. Llywydd, we'll endeavour to expedite our consideration of regulations whenever we can and wherever it is appropriate to do so, but we're going to have to make these decisions on a case-by-case basis, being mindful of the need to have sufficient time to undertake our scrutiny function and to ensure that the people we serve here are not being placed at a disadvantage. We may not always, therefore, be in a position to assist in the way we've been trying to do so recently. Diolch.

The Minister to respond.

I'd just like to thank the Chair very much for those comments, and also thank the Chair and the committee for looking so quickly at the regulations and dealing with them so speedily. I'm grateful to him for his recognition of the particular context within which these regulations were laid. Thank you.

The proposal, therefore, is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? Any objection? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed under item 5.

Item 6 is next, and this is the Trade in Animals and Related Products (Amendment and Legislative Functions) and Animal Health (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) (EU Exit) Regulations 2022. I call on the Minister for rural affairs to move the motion—Lesley Griffiths.

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss the background to today's debate on the Trade in Animals and Related Products (Amendment and Legislative Functions) and Animal Health (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) (EU Exit) Regulations 2022. Trade in animals and animal products is regulated by a suite of domestic legislation and retained EU law, and import controls are implemented and enforced at our border by the Trade in Animals and Related Products (Wales) Regulations 2011. These regulations relate to the continuation of the existing trade rules. Imported goods will continue to meet current import health requirements, such as those relating to the health status of the country of origin, appropriate testing and veterinary certification, among others.

While the withdrawal Act retained a good deal of EU law in domestic law, the law in this area was, in part, governed at an EU level by directives that were not retained by that Act. These regulations are the final piece in a long series of statutory instruments that have been made to ensure that all outstanding EU exit-related corrections in the animal health and welfare space are captured in the domestic statute book.

These regulations deal with those parts of the 11 EU directives that we want to retain in the Welsh statute book; specifically, animal health import standards and administrative and legislative powers. These regulations are drafted by reference to the EU directives, as modified by the regulations, and contain new Welsh Ministers’ administrative and regulation-making powers, equivalent to the functions previously held at EU level under these directives. They also make more minor operability amendments.

These regulations are made using the affirmative procedure, utilising powers conferred on the Welsh Ministers by the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, and in relation to a small number of amendments to domestic legislation, Regulation (EU) 2017/625 on official controls, the official control regulation. They were laid before the Senedd on 22 November and are due to come into force on 16 December should they be approved.

The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee has scrutinised the draft regulations and prepared a report, and I recognise the number of scrutiny points raised by the LJC committee in its report, and welcome its valuable feedback and scrutiny. My officials provided a full response to the LJCC report. This has been an extremely long and technically complex 100-page instrument for my officials to draft, which is a consequence of the already complex legislative context that the regulations will operate in, namely 11 EU directives, nine retained EU regulations and two domestic sets of regulations, totalling several hundred pages of legislation.

The Welsh Government has carefully considered the points raised by the LJCC, and understands the committee’s concerns. However, I am confident that they can be resolved, because they do not have a substantial impact upon the operation of the regulations, and on balance, should not prevent the regulations from being made. The Welsh Government has considered the urgent powers under the withdrawal Act as a means of correcting the defective drafting. However, it was not deemed to be a workable solution, and this is explained in the response to the LJCC’s letter of 12 December.

Of the 34 reporting points, it is proposed that a short amending instrument will resolve two of the reporting points. The amending instrument will be made as soon as is practicable. In the short intervening period before the amendment is made, these discrepancies can be managed operationally, and there will be no adverse impact on traders nor any risk of compromising animal health and welfare. Twelve reporting points are minor errors that can be corrected on publication. In relation to 18 points, officials are content that they can provide a rationale for the drafting that should resolve the LJCC’s concerns. The final three reporting points do not require a Government response or action.

I am asking Senedd Members to support the draft regulations because they contain new administrative and legislative powers for the Welsh Ministers, which will be lost if these regulations cannot be made. The enabling powers in the withdrawal Act cease to be available after 31 December 2022. Similar regulations have been made by the Secretary of State that will apply in relation to England and Scotland. If the regulations are not made, Welsh Ministers will not have the same suite of powers as the other UK administrations, which are needed to respond swiftly to dynamic animal disease risks that can affect trade.

These regulations will ensure that the collective legal framework, side by side with the common UK animal health and welfare framework governing imports, is consistent across Great Britain and provides stability and reassurance to traders and authorities throughout Wales.

The Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee now—Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you again, Llywydd.

Thank you again. We considered these regulations yesterday afternoon in our committee, and again, our report has been laid to inform Members this afternoon. I would also like to draw Members' attention to a letter that we wrote to the Minister yesterday afternoon, which is of great significance to this afternoon's discussion as well.

The Minister has explained today the purpose of these regulations—and her view on the importance of these, and of course, the cut-off date of 31 December—that they seek to address failures of retained EU law to operate effectively, and to address other deficiencies arising from the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union. The regulations seek to do this by modifying retained EU law and by amending regulations made in 2011 and 2018, and the Minister has also made clear the complexity of this, and the detail that her team of advisers and legal advisers and drafters have entailed in working through this. We understand that complexity because we've been going through that as well. But I do have to say, as Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, I am in a slightly unusual and difficult and challenging position this afternoon, because our report, released last week and sent to the Minister last week, highlights 27 technical points. Five of those relate to defective drafting, 10 relate to inconsistencies between the English and Welsh versions, 12 have asked for further explanation, and our report also contains seven merits points. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the Welsh Government did not respond to our report in time for our meeting yesterday afternoon, so we were not able to take into account its views before we proceeded with that as a committee and made a final report for the Senedd.

The Welsh Government response was issued late this morning. Having only had the time to briefly read what we’ve been sent, it looks like, as the Minister has said, there's agreement with roughly half of our reporting points, but we've not had time, I have to say, to fully analyse the response in detail. Now, based on past experience, Llywydd, we would normally expect regulations of this type now to be withdrawn, to be re-laid, and for this debate to have been rescheduled. But as the Minister has said, there is an issue here because there is a relevant enabling power in the EU Withdrawal Act 2018 switching off at the end of this month.

So, as a committee, we have concerns that the Senedd is being asked to approve regulations that contain multiple identified known errors and deficiencies and which, in the committee’s view, in many respects make it inaccessible. We don't have the time to engage in detailed debate on this because we have not been able to consider the Minister's repose as a committee. My committee will need time to fully assess the response but, Minister, my initial reaction is that, in some of these matters, we still don't have an adequate response to explain the concerns that we have raised. Let me give you an example: in reporting points 2 and 5, or point 30. In points 2 and 5, we have highlighted that the regulations do not contain a definition of 'the appropriate authority' for the purpose of these regulations. You’ve told us that regulations 5(1) and (2) confer the role of appropriate authority on Welsh Ministers, but it is not clear how you can arrive at that view. It may be helpful if you can expand on that in your answer. On point 30, we noted the creation of a new Henry VIII power that will allow regulations that amend primary legislation—and those regulations will be subject to the negative procedure. Now, this goes against a principle that my committee and its predecessor committees have long advocated—that regulations amending primary legislation should be subject to the affirmative procedure.

Minister, you state that the regulation-making power is limited, and that may be the case in mind of what you intend to do with this, but, Minister, such regulations can do things for supplementary reasons. As the Chair of the committee that looks at regulations regularly, and the use of executive powers on a weekly basis, I can say that ‘supplementary’ can be used as a way of doing many, many things. I wonder if, assuming the Welsh Government does have the powers, the Minister would be content to give a commitment today to bring forward regulations early in the new year to change the procedure for this from negative to affirmative.

Minister, we took the decision to write to you urgently after our meeting yesterday afternoon because of our continuing concerns with these regulations, and we asked you to address a number of questions, so that Members of the Senedd could make an informed decision today. We received your response this afternoon, just after 3 p.m., so again, it has not been possible to fully assess what we have been told. But I do note, Minister, that you believe that it is appropriate to proceed with submitting the regulations to the Senedd, and to a vote if necessary this afternoon, and that you are confident that the issues we have raised can be resolved because they do not, in your view, have a substantial impact upon the operation of the regulations.

You have also said—Llywydd, I'm conscious that I'm slightly over, but I have a couple of points—

It's okay. You carry on. 

Minister, you've also said that you've decided against the use of the urgent made affirmative procedure, which is an option that's open under the EU (Withdrawal) Act 2018 as a means of correcting the defective drafting highlighted by the committee, because you did not consider it to be a workable solution. We have not, of course, had the time to consider this response fully either.

You have confirmed that a correcting instrument, which you propose to make in early January using powers in the Animal Health Act 1981, will be needed to address two errors, while you will be asking for 12 others to be corrected before the regulations are published by the National Archives. It is, I would say on behalf of the committee, regrettable having to rely on such an approach in relation to what are important regulations. 

So, to my fellow Senedd Members in conclusion, I would simply highlight my committee’s view that there are still remaining many issues with these regulations, albeit with the Minister signalling to us that the axe drops on midnight 31 December. So, should Members of the Senedd accept the Welsh Government’s arguments today, there are a number of questions and important matters that remain, not least the issues I have highlighted this afternoon. The Senedd is being asked to pass a defective instrument, and from my committee's standing, that is strange. So, Minister, I'd welcome your assurance that such a request will not be put in front of the Senedd again on behalf of Welsh Government, and that the Welsh Government will provide detail to my committee and to the Senedd on how it can avoid this happening in future. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. 

Before I start, I want to put on record that my group have no objection to the regulations, but we do have objections to the way that the Welsh Government has presented these to the Senedd today. Is it right that we as Senedd Members have to vote on poorly worded regulations that are, in fact, defective? The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, which I sit on, identified 34 technical and merits points. In addition, I'm led to believe that there are also 70 other issues with grammar that have been noted in these regulations. I've sat on that committee for a short time, but having this amount of errors in regulations is unprecedented. 

My group are disappointed that the vote on this is even happening today, considering the large amounts of defective elements in these regulations, and it has given the committee a lack of time to scrutinise this legislation and regulations properly. A letter arrived in my inbox at 15:18 today. I don't think that that's enough time for me, as a member of that committee, to sit down to scrutinise it properly, while having to do other commitments here in this Chamber today. 

My group also want to know, Minister, how we've ended up in this situation. If these regulations have been in train for a long time, why is the lateness of laying these regulations coming today, and why are we forcing the Senedd to vote on defective legislation? I don't think it's right. What I'd like to know is what process are you going to use if we pass this today to amend these regulations, what timescale you will be working to, and what procedure you'll be using to amend these regulations. My group today will be voting against these regulations, as I've said earlier, not because we disagree with the regs, but due to the Welsh Government using Senedd Members to pass defective legislation and regulations that we don't know the consequences of doing. And in my view, if we vote for these today, we could be putting this Parliament at risk.

Secondly, the Government is wasting Senedd time doing this, it's wasting Government time, and it's also going to be wasting committee time to go back to amend these regulations, which the Government should have got right in the first instance and not have to put this through today. As a Parliament, we have a duty to ensure that the best legislation and regulations are put through this Senedd, and putting this through today, I and my group believe sets a very dangerous precedent of putting poorly worded, defective legislation through, putting it on the statute book, which we don't believe is appropriate for a modern, effective Parliament. And I would just like to ask the Minister, in closing: have you had any discussions with your officials about whether there's any potential risk with us putting this through today, and about any reputational damage that this could cause for the Senedd? Diolch, Llywydd. 

These regulations in front of us today are a real cause for concern. Huw Irranca-Davies, Chair of the LJC committee, has eloquently and powerfully explained the details of the concerns regarding what is an extraordinarily defective piece of work. I understand that you will be concerned that this has to be passed before the end of this year, and I would echo the LJC's question: what are the implications if this was not passed? I look forward to hearing the Minister's response to this vital question. Also, did the Minister think about this before presenting the defective set of regulations so late in the day? I'd further ask the Minister and the Government to consider carefully how we reached this point in the first place. There are numerous flaws in the definitions, which is no small matter. There are differences between the Welsh and the English versions. It includes incorrect references. If this were course work submitted for grading, then it would have failed miserably. But it's not; it's far more serious than that. This isn't a case of arguing on policy; it's nothing to do with policy. We support the general thrust of the policy, which is sound, but we cannot in good conscience allow a flawed piece of work to become law. Someone somewhere would have to pay a heavy price for this mess, were it to be on the statute book. The Government really shouldn't be presenting this to us today. Not only is it shoddy in the extreme, but, by having poor legislation like this, with mistakes that renders the whole document useless, it potentially undermines trust in devolution and our ability to legislate properly.

I understand full well that, if this is not passed, that regulations will not be in place, and that sits uneasily with me. But, at the end of the day, that's not our fault; that responsibility sits entirely on the shoulders of the Government. It's not a case of 'better to have poor legislation than no legislation at all'—that's completely the wrong attitude. We need legislation that a court of law can uphold; we need correct legislation. This is not it. I understand that you've given assurances and that some corrections will be made as soon as is practicable, but the fact remains that we will therefore be voting on the wording in front of us today to become law—a flawed piece of work. We can't allow that and we are therefore minded to vote against these regulations. I'd finally urge this Government not to put us in this situation again.

The Minister for rural affairs, Lesley Griffiths, to reply.

Thank you very much, and I'd like to thank Members for their contributions to this debate, particularly Huw Irranca-Davies as Chair of the LJCC, and other members of that committee as well, and I absolutely understand and appreciate the concerns that have been raised by all Members who contributed in this debate. I will certainly endeavour to ensure this does not happen again, and certainly those discussions I will be continuing to have with officials. And I'm grateful to the Chair of the LJCC for the two meetings we held over the last 24 hours. So, thank you very much for that.

I've already committed to bringing forward amendments to the regulations in the new year, and I will do that as soon as is practicable, and I commit to changing the negative to affirmative procedure, which the Chair requested I do. As I said, the changes made by these regulations are required to ensure that the vast programme of previous corrective SIs operate within the correct reference to the EU directives that aid their function, and they will help traders by providing a consistent set of controls across Great Britain, whilst also safeguarding Welsh Ministers' ability to diverge in future, if they should wish to do so. The changes are important to ensure that we have minimal disruption to imports, when the transitional staging period ends at the end of the year and new import controls apply fully to EU imports, once phasing in of the import checks is complete, in line with the UK Government's future borders target operating model. The regulations have been designed following an extensive review by officials of EU law that was, until now, not part of our statute book—laws that are really essential for the proper functioning of our border controls, which in turn protect both public and animal health and welfare here in Wales, and I would ask Members to support. Diolch.

A question was asked during the debate, of me, on whether there would be any reputational risk of passing these regulations today for the Senedd: I would say that that is a matter for all of you to consider, when casting your vote, on deciding whether the regulations should be passed today or not.

The proposal therefore is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There will be a vote on these regulations during voting time.

Item 7 is next, the Food and Feed (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) (EU Exit) Regulations 2022, and I call now on the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being to move the motion. Lynne Neagle.

Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion. The regulations that we are debating today make amendments to domestic legislation applying in relation to Wales on food and feed safety and hygiene. These amendments are required to improve the clarity and accessibility of Welsh domestic food and feed safety and hygiene legislation following the withdrawal of the UK from the EU, and to correct references defining enforcement authorities in relation to animal feed. 

The Welsh Government's priority is to maintain the high standards of food safety and consumer protection we have established. Therefore, this instrument does not introduce any relaxation of the robust legal regime we have in Wales now. This instrument does not introduce any changes that will impact the day-to-day operation of food businesses, nor does it introduce any new regulatory burden. The essence of legislation is unchanged. 

At this point, I would like to thank the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their detailed report on the proposed instrument. I acknowledge and accept the five technical scrutiny points that have been identified. I will seek that these are rectified at the earliest opportunity. Of the points identified by the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, we will seek that two are rectified as correction slips, with the remaining three being rectified within another statutory instrument that is due to be laid during the first half of 2023.

As the scrutiny points do not have a substantive impact on the operability of this instrument, I would therefore ask that the proposed amendments in this instrument are supported, to avoid losing the powers in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 required to make the majority of the amendments. These powers will expire on 31 December 2022.

Alternative powers are available for most provisions, with the exception that there are no alternative powers available to make regulation 4(8). This provision is a new regulation-making power for the Welsh Ministers to amend the lists of undesirable substances in relation to animal feed. Not proceeding with these proposed changes would create a period of divergence in terms of accessibility for the relevant legislation within Wales compared to England and Scotland until such time as it might be possible to bring the Welsh regulations into alignment with the other GB regulations. If approved, this instrument will come into force on 31 December 2022. Diolch.

Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee—Huw Irranca-Davies. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you. 

In opening our remarks, I note that two of the arguments put forward by the Deputy Minister and also the Minister, in terms of the previous instrument in front of us, are, if not identical, very similar. One is that, in passing these instruments today, even with the defective aspects that we've identified, it wouldn't have an impact on the operability of this instrument on the ground, in effect, but secondly that failure to do so would result in a period of divergence from the rest of the UK in both this and the previous one.

However, we did consider these regulations on 5 December and we've had a chance to review the Government’s response to our report yesterday. We thank the Deputy Minister and her officials for providing your response to it. So, our report and the Welsh Government response are available via today’s Plenary agenda.

So, as the Deputy Minister has said, these regulations make amendments to subordinate legislation in the fields of food and feed safety and hygiene. Our report contained five technical reporting points, two of which relate to defective drafting and three of which highlight inconsistencies between the English and Welsh texts. And as the Deputy Minister has said, the Welsh Government has accepted all of the five points we've raised, and we recognise that, and that, we think, is a good way forward. But this means that the regulations we're now voting on this afternoon will need correcting in the future.

The Deputy Minister has confirmed to my committee that three of the points we have raised will need to be addressed via a further statutory instrument in the new year, and, Deputy Minister, you touched on that.

Llywydd, in the previous debate I mentioned that we'd written to the Minister for rural affairs in a fairly rapid and urgent fashion following our meeting yesterday in respect of the regulations we have only just debated. That letter was also addressed to the Deputy Minister, because there are similar issues, although not on the same scale, existing within these regulations. Now, I mentioned that the letter we received in response only arrived late this afternoon, so we're not fully able to asses what we've been told and explore it.

Deputy Minister, one of the things we asked you to confirm was which powers the Welsh Government has available to it to make the appropriate correcting statutory instruments you spoke of in the response we received to our report. You've told us that you can use powers in the Food Safety Act 1990 and the Agriculture Act 1970, so you have identified a way forward to make the correction. But, Deputy Minister, you'll understand for our committee it's of concern that you are unlikely to make these corrections until the first or the second quarter of 2023.

Deputy Minister, I also note that you have confirmed that only one provision in the regulations could not be made using alternative powers, if this instrument was withdrawn. I wonder if you can say a little bit more about that in your closing remarks, and also what thought you gave to using powers contained in—and I mentioned this before, this afternoon—the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 to permit the use of the urgent made affirmative procedure as a means of correcting the five points highlighted by the committee.

Llywydd, the Deputy Minister will also be seeking to make the adjustments needed to address the other two points in our report via correction slips. We will be writing to the Welsh Government, but, to give some advance notice, several Government responses to our reports in recent months have stated that correction slips will be sought from the registrar to address errors in regulation. So, we will be pushing on what guidance is used by Welsh Government and the registrar to determine what can and what cannot or should not be fixed in this way.

So, as I said in the previous debate, should Senedd Members accept the Welsh Government's arguments, the fact remains that the Senedd is being asked to pass a defective instrument, albeit the scale is somewhat different. So, Deputy Minister, I would also welcome any assurances from yourself that you, also, along with the Minister in the previous debate, will do all you can to ensure that a request to pass a defective instrument will not be put in front of the Senedd again. Thank you.

I'd just like to take this opportunity to ask the Deputy Minister, when you're reviewing this legislation in line with the request by the legislative and constitutional committee, to have a look at the labelling on baby food, because this has long been something that concerns me, because in the past it has certainly been raised with me that sugar is put into baby food, and salt. Both of these items should be absent from baby food, because neither of them are necessary if the food that's being presented as suitable for babies is decent food that doesn't need the addition of either sugar or salt. Very small children shouldn't eat either of them. So, I wondered if you could look at that as a specific, as to whether we need to tighten up the legislation on baby food, (a) so that we endeavour to ensure that the industry does not add either of these harmful items to products that they are marketing as suitable for infants, once they're ready to move on from milk—hopefully, breast milk. This is an opportunity to do that, so I'd be very grateful if you could confirm that in your response.

The Deputy Minister to reply. Lynne Neagle.

Diolch, Llywydd, and can I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for his contribution and also Jenny Rathbone for her contribution to the debate today? I'm also very happy to give the assurance that I will take what you've said away and do whatever I can to make sure that we aren't in this position again. So, you have my very firm commitment on that. As I've already highlighted, the instrument makes no changes to policy or how food and feed businesses are regulated, but I do accept that it's not ideal that you should have to highlight these points in the way that you have, and I will certainly take that forward.

Jenny, in relation to your points, I would have to follow up with you by letter on that as to whether this would be the appropriate vehicle to pursue the issues that you've raised, but I'm very happy to do that. Can I just reiterate my thanks to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for the report and reiterate my commitment to rectify the five technical scrutiny points at the earliest opportunity? As the errors are of a minor nature and do not substantively affect the operability of the proposed regulation or the operability of the legislation as amended, I would therefore ask that the proposed amendments in this instrument be supported. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection to this motion, and therefore we will defer voting on that motion under item 7 to voting time.

That brings us to voting time, and unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung I will proceed directly to voting time. I don't see that there's a request to ring the bell, so we will move to our first vote, and that first vote is on the Trade in Animals and Related Products (Amendment and Legislative Functions) and Animal Health (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) (EU Exit) Regulations 2022. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, no abstentions, 24 against. Therefore the motion is agreed.

The next item is the Food and Feed (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) (EU Exit) Regulations 2022. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 34, no abstentions, 15 against. Therefore, that motion is also agreed.

That concludes voting time for today and concludes our business for today, too.