16235 7 2026-09-17T09:30:50 770246 0 Cy 2026-09-17T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16235?startPos=-34243&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16235?startPos=-34243&l=en 260917-0 C 16235 7 2026-09-17T09:30:50 770248 1 Cy 2026-09-17T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16235?startPos=-34243&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16235?startPos=-34243&l=en 260917-0 C 16235 7 2026-09-17T09:30:50 770338 2 Cy 260917-0 I Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad. The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript. 16235 7 2026-09-17T09:30:50 770253 3 Cy 260917-0 I Cyfarfu’r pwyllgor yn y Senedd a thrwy gynhadledd fideo. Dechreuodd rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod am 09:30. The committee met in the Senedd and by video-conference. The public part of the meeting began at 09:30. 16235 7 2026-09-17T09:30:50 770270 4 Cy 2026-09-17T09:30:50 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16235?startPos=7&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16235?startPos=7&l=en 260917-1 1. Cyflwyniadau, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau. 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest C 278 278 Carrie Harper AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 Harper, Carrie Bore da, bawb. Croeso. Good morning and welcome. 16235 7 2026-09-17T09:30:50 770271 5 En 2026-09-17T09:30:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16235?startPos=9&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16235?startPos=9&l=cy 260917-1 1. Cyflwyniadau, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau. 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest C 278 278 Carrie Harper AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 Harper, Carrie Can I welcome everybody back to the Constitution, Justice and External Affairs Committee? The public items of the meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and a Record of Proceedings will be published in due course. This is a bilingual meeting, so simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Before we proceed, can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest that they wish to put on the record? No. Okay. 16235 7 2026-09-17T09:30:50 770273 6 En 2026-09-17T09:31:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16235?startPos=35&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16235?startPos=35&l=cy 260917-2 2. Papurau i'w nodi 2. Papers to note C 278 278 Carrie Harper AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 Harper, Carrie We'll move on to item 2, which is correspondence. You'll see from the pack that we've got quite a bit of correspondence from over recess. I'm not going to suggest that we take those one by one, but there are a couple of items that I would like to highlight, starting with paper 6, which is a letter to the Secretary of State for Wales. So, if I can bring the clerk in just to update on that item? 16235 7 2026-09-17T09:30:50 770277 7 En 2026-09-17T09:31:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16235?startPos=61&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16235?startPos=61&l=cy 260917-2 2. Papurau i'w nodi 2. Papers to note C 8057 Gerallt Roberts Roberts, Gerallt Yes. So, as you can see in the papers, the committee has written to the Secretary of State to invite him to give evidence to the committee. As an update, we've had confirmation from his officials that he's pleased to give evidence, but they have asked if the session could take place after his first appearance before the Welsh Affairs Committee, which is scheduled to take place in early December. So, if Members are content, as clerks we can make the relevant arrangements for him to appear before the committee following that—perhaps in early January. 16235 7 2026-09-17T09:30:50 770278 8 En 2026-09-17T09:32:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16235?startPos=92&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16235?startPos=92&l=cy 260917-2 2. Papurau i'w nodi 2. Papers to note C 278 278 Carrie Harper AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 Harper, Carrie Okay. That's positive. The other paper I'd like to highlight is paper 10, which is 'Rewiring the State'. So, you can find that on page 16 in your pack. The Cabinet statement paper sets out plans for devolution within England, but says the UK Government will work with the Welsh Government and Welsh stakeholders to explore how the benefits of greater local empowerment could apply here in Wales. And, according to the Prime Minister, he and UK Ministers will work with the First Ministers and Governments of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and with local leaders, to explore how local empowerment could benefit the whole of the UK. Now, if Members have had a chance to read that, there isn't a great deal of detail in there relating to Wales. I was going to suggest that we write to the new UK Prime Minister and ask if he's willing to come in and discuss what those priorities might look like in a Welsh context. We will see if we get a positive response, but I think that would be beneficial for committee. Does anybody have any comments on that item? 16235 7 2026-09-17T09:30:50 770279 9 En 2026-09-17T09:33:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16235?startPos=159&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16235?startPos=159&l=cy 260917-2 2. Papurau i'w nodi 2. Papers to note C 171 171 Darren Millar AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=171 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=171 Millar, Darren Just one. First of all, apologies for being slightly late, Chair. I thought it was an interesting document. You're quite right, it didn't appear to fully appreciate the devolved nations' aspect of things, in my view, but there were some interesting points that I think we could pick up with the Welsh Government about devolution within Wales to communities. I was particularly taken with the business rates suggestion, that local areas should be able to keep more of their own business rates. And I think there should be an opportunity for us to discuss and test the Welsh Government's thinking on some of those things, personally. 16235 7 2026-09-17T09:30:50 770280 10 En 2026-09-17T09:33:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16235?startPos=196&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16235?startPos=196&l=cy 260917-2 2. Papurau i'w nodi 2. Papers to note C 278 278 Carrie Harper AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 Harper, Carrie Okay. That will be a separate— 16235 7 2026-09-17T09:30:50 770282 11 En 2026-09-17T09:34:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16235?startPos=198&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16235?startPos=198&l=cy 260917-2 2. Papurau i'w nodi 2. Papers to note C 171 171 Darren Millar AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=171 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=171 Millar, Darren A separate piece of action, yes. 16235 7 2026-09-17T09:30:50 770283 12 En 2026-09-17T09:34:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16235?startPos=199&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16235?startPos=199&l=cy 260917-2 2. Papurau i'w nodi 2. Papers to note C 278 278 Carrie Harper AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 Harper, Carrie —letter.  But if Members are happy, then, we can pick up both of those points going forward and I can bring the draft back or we can circulate via e-mail before that's sent off. Any other points on that item? 16235 7 2026-09-17T09:30:50 770284 13 En 2026-09-17T09:34:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16235?startPos=216&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16235?startPos=216&l=cy 260917-2 2. Papurau i'w nodi 2. Papers to note C 5196 5196 Sarah Rees https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5196 Rees, Sarah I have a number of question on this, starting with: what is the definition of 'good growth'? I think that's setting out quite a statement of intent without being clear on what that is. So, yes, there were a number of other points. A lot of it is really around how this fits in a local perspective for Wales. But, particularly, I think, if we're looking at devolving to local government, it's the impact of how that will be effective when we already have lots of data on how unequal local government is. So, I think we need to look at it from that perspective. Is there a gendered lens to some of this work? Because if local government is mostly a particular type of person, how will that be reflective? One particular element was looking to the technical route for 16-year-olds, and control of the budget for 16 to 19-year-olds, but are there many younger people in local authorities who can help to make and scrutinise those decisions? If they're all going to be made by a lot of older people who are on local authorities, then that's not really going to reflect the real needs of young people. So, it's that kind of engagement, really, would be something I'd like to look at. 16235 7 2026-09-17T09:30:50 770287 14 En 2026-09-17T09:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16235?startPos=257&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16235?startPos=257&l=cy 260917-2 2. Papurau i'w nodi 2. Papers to note C 16235 7 2026-09-17T09:30:50 770314 15 En 2026-09-17T09:36:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16235?startPos=331&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16235?startPos=331&l=cy 260917-2 2. Papurau i'w nodi 2. Papers to note C 16235 7 2026-09-17T09:30:50 770315 16 En 2026-09-17T09:36:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16235?startPos=332&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16235?startPos=332&l=cy 260917-2 2. Papurau i'w nodi 2. Papers to note C 16235 7 2026-09-17T09:30:50 770301 17 En 2026-09-17T09:35:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16235?startPos=298&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16235?startPos=298&l=cy 260917-2 2. Papurau i'w nodi 2. Papers to note C 278 278 Carrie Harper AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 Harper, Carrie Diolch, Sarah. Yes, I think, certainly, more questions than answers at the moment, so something we'd want to explore further. If Members are happy with that, are there any other comments people would like to make on correspondence? No. Members are happy.  16235 7 2026-09-17T09:30:50 770302 18 Cy 260917-3 3. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod 3. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting I Cynnig: bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(ix). Motion: that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix). 16235 7 2026-09-17T09:30:50 770303 19 Cy 260917-3 3. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod 3. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting I Cynigiwyd y cynnig. Motion moved. 16235 7 2026-09-17T09:30:50 770304 20 En 2026-09-17T09:35:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16235?startPos=316&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16235?startPos=316&l=cy 260917-3 3. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod 3. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting C 278 278 Carrie Harper AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 Harper, Carrie We'll move to item 3, and I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix), that committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in order to discuss matters relating to the internal business of the committee. Are Members content? Okay. Members are content. Diolch yn fawr. 16235 7 2026-09-17T09:30:50 770305 21 Cy 260917-3 3. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod 3. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting I Derbyniwyd y cynnig. Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 09:36. Motion agreed. The public part of the meeting ended at 09:36.