National Assembly for Wales

I call Members to order. 

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Huw Irranca-Davies. 

I thank the Member for the question. I am aware from my discussions with him that the Minister for Economy and Transport met with Assembly Members, councillors and Members of Parliament on Monday to discuss road and rail capacity in relation to Pencoed.

I thank the First Minister for that answer, and could I, through him, just convey my thanks to the Minister for Economy and Transport? He has been endlessly lobbied by me, and I've brought delegations of the council leader, town councillors from Pencoed town council and others, and he's engaged very constructively, I have to say, with us. 

The two sides of this town are separated now by a level crossing that can be shut in peak times for up to 40 minutes in an hour and a narrow Victorian road bridge that allows only for one-way traffic determined by a three-way traffic light system. This can lead to utter gridlock in the town, immense frustration for residents and businesses, air pollution and congestion, and a dead hand on housing and wider economic development. It's also notorious, by the way—the level crossing—for its accidents and its close shaves with pedestrians and traffic, and, of course, the stretch is unfortunately also infamous for fatalities through suicide. 

So, the recently announced £60,000 grant from the Welsh Government transport grant to take forward a feasibility study into resolving these issues is an important step forward, and we truly thank the Welsh Government for this. First Minister, we've spent several years to get to a point where we now have all the right players at the table: Network Rail, Bridgend County Borough Council, Pencoed town council, local councillors, a Member of Parliament, and even an observer present—[Interruption.]

I'm sure the Member is coming to his question. 

I am. And even an observer presence from the Wales Office as well. But would he agree with me that if public support, and only after proper consultation, a significant multimillion pound scheme were to proceed, this would need all those players to play their part? And I wonder what the Welsh Government could do to encourage Westminster and the Department for Transport to step up to the mark as well. 

I thank the Member for that supplementary question. And, Llywydd, returning early this morning from Tata Steel, where the Minister and I had been with David Rees celebrating the refit of the new blast furnace 5, and discussing that matter, we took the opportunity to go off the road and to see the sight of the level crossing. And once you see it for yourself, you absolutely understand the points that Huw Irranca-Davies is making, and I wanted to pay tribute to the indefatigable way in which I know that he has pursued this issue, not just in this Assembly, but when he was a Member of Parliament as well, attempting to get a solution to what is, as Members have heard, a very real blight on the need to bring about improvement in that area. 

I am very glad that the Welsh Government has been able to put some money on the table to break the deadlock that otherwise was there, but the Member is completely right in saying that our money—the £60,000 we have put forward for the feasibility study—will only really bear fruit when the results of a feasibility study are funded, and, for that, we will need the help of the Department for Transport in London, as well as our own resources. 

Well, I'll have to check my e-mail because I don't think I was invited to that meeting as a regional Assembly Member. We all know there's a dire lack of investment in south Wales west train lines. A report received by the Economy and Infrastructure Committee, by Rowland Pittard, noted that there was, and I quote,

'a long history of promises'

of a half-hourly service from Maesteg, and it suggests that bus routes to the area are pretty shambolic as well. What is your Government going to do to increase public transport accessibility to people in my region who have been waiting for quite some time for progress in this area?

Well, Llywydd, I'm sure the Member will have welcomed the plans that have already been published for a Sunday service from Maesteg to Cardiff, stopping at Pencoed, which will begin this year. She will have welcomed the fact that, from the autumn of this year, there will be upgraded rolling stock, producing a 45 per cent increase in capacity on morning journeys from Maesteg, and I know that she will have welcomed the fact that, by December 2023, the running time between Cardiff and Maesteg will have been reduced from 55 minutes to 46 minutes, as a result of decisions made by this Welsh Labour Government. 

I thank the Member for that question. A new control framework has enabled a reduction of £30 million in agency working costs in the Welsh NHS over the last financial year. A set of priority actions from that work has been identified for the second phase of our action in this area.

Thank you very much, First Minister. Clearly, we have to replace people if members of staff become sick, particularly at very short notice. But it seems that there is an issue with the use of agencies that don't passport on what the health board is paying for those staff, as opposed to having bank workers who are able to come in at short notice. So, I think there's a particular issue here around the cost of agency working, which some health boards are managing much less efficiently than others. I'm glad to hear about the new strategic plan that the Government has, because I'm sure this money could be better spent on patients.

Llywydd, I thank the Member for that supplementary question. She's quite right to point to the fact that there are different sorts of agency spending. Some agency spending, where staff are brought in to cover parental leave, or study leave, for example, is planned agency spending and is necessary in any large organisation such as the NHS. The plan has been drawn up to bear down on the costs of non-planned use of agency staff, and there, as Jenny Rathbone has said, some health boards have already made greater progress than others. Cardiff and Vale University Local Health Board, in the area that she represents, spends on agency 1.8 per cent of its pay costs as a whole, and that is the lowest percentage of any local health board in Wales. The second phase of the work that I mentioned in my opening answer will involve all health boards in Wales learning from one another, but it will also, in the way the Member said, consider the benefits of an all-Wales staff bank, so that we can use the staff that we have more directly under our employment in order to bring down costs but also to provide a better service.

First Minister, I'm sure you'll want to commend the work of the Auditor General for Wales, who has pointed out that 82 per cent of this spend is to cover for vacancies. And he also says there's a real issue of skills shortages and poor data, especially the lack of consistent and comparable data, which is impeding the leadership that we need from the health boards. What are you going to do with his observations there, and how soon might we see better performance in this important area?

I thank David Melding for that. I do, of course, welcome the report of the Wales Audit Office. It was that report that highlighted the fact that there had been a reduction of £30 million in the cost of agency working staff in the last year in the NHS. And it was a balanced account of the achievements that have been made in Wales, but also pointing to new ways in which we can address skills shortages and costs in the future. In the second phase, which I've mentioned already, there will be further development of data collection, to provide standardised national data, to enable benchmarking and monitoring of improvement in spend, directly in response to some of the work that the auditor general summed up in his report.

I'm sure that the First Minister will be aware that one of the issues leading to the problems with agency staffing is problems with retention in the nursing workforce. One of the reasons for these problems of retention, in some cases, is a lack of flexibility. I'm aware of a number of cases where nurses have asked for flexible working patterns on the wards where they're employed, and the local health boards have been unable to provide, or unwilling to provide, those flexible working patterns. Those nurses have then left their positions, gone to work for agencies and ended up in exactly the same wards, doing exactly the same work, costing the national health service more money, but receiving the flexibility that they've asked for, to enable them, for example, to balance their family responsibilities with working in the NHS. If there is one case of this, this is too many, I'm sure the First Minister would agree with me. A number of such cases have been drawn to my attention. What more can the First Minister do, working with the Minister for Health and Social Services, to ensure that local health boards take a more flexible and pragmatic approach to providing nursing staff with flexible working opportunities and to promote the retention of these highly skilled members of staff directly in our national health, rather than employing them through agencies?

Well, Llywydd, I do agree directly with the main point that Helen Mary Jones has made. If you think of staffing in the NHS, there are three consecutive issues that you have to think about. First of all, there is training of new staff to come into the NHS, and, for the fifth year in a row, we have record spend in supporting health professional education and training in Wales, with record numbers of people being trained to come into the nursing profession in Wales. The second issue is recruitment. Having trained people, you have to recruit them, and the number of nurses, midwives and health visitors in Wales was up by 134 again last year. We have a record high number of people recruited into the health service, but then we have to retain them in the way that the Member said. And the message I always gave to the health service, and I know it's repeated by Vaughan Gething, is that they must show maximum flexibility in order to retain the skilled and dedicated staff that they have. And the question should not be, 'How does this person fit into the health board's patterns?' but, 'What can the health board do to enable that person's needs to be responded to flexibly?' in order that we can retain that person who has been often expensively trained, where investment has been made in them while they work for the health service, and where there is every reason why a local health board should do everything they can, in as flexible a way as they can, to go on retaining the service of that person for as long as they possibly can. 

Questions now from the party leaders. The Plaid Cymru leader, Adam Price. 

Thank you, Llywydd. First Minister, during your first winter in charge as health Minister, 80 per cent of those attending accident and emergency departments were accepted, transferred or released within 24 hours. That is, of course, lower than the target of 95 per cent. Last month, only 77.8 per cent of people were seen within four hours. This is the worst record for any December to date. Can you explain why the performance of A&E departments during your tenure as health Minister, and then as finance Minister, and now as First Minister, has gone from bad to worse?

Wel, Llywydd, that is a very partial and unfair description of the work that emergency departments in Wales have done over this winter. It is certainly true that the number of people entering A&E departments on an emergency basis was the highest ever on record in the month of December, and, despite that, the system has been more resilient in this winter than the year before. We have seen reductions in delayed transfers of care; we have seen reductions in delays in ambulance handovers; we have seen improvements in the resilience of the system, with fewer hospitals declaring themselves to be under the greatest level of pressure.

The Member is true in picking one example where the system has been under greatest strain, and that is seeing people within the four-hour target. In fact, the majority of health boards in Wales have improved their performance there. The all-Wales figure is brought down by the fact that, in two health boards, the performance has deteriorated.

Llywydd, the median time that people who go to A&E departments in Wales in December had to wait, despite the pressures that the system is under, was two hours and 25 minutes, from the time they arrived, not to the time they were seen, but to the time that they had been seen, treated and either admitted to the hospital or discharged home. I think that is a tremendous tribute to the work that goes on by the dedicated staff who work under such pressures of numbers and conditions, and that's where I would put my focus this afternoon. 

I have to say that I regret the First Minister’s answer. The performance in England, which is already ahead of Wales, has continued to improve over the last 12 months, whilst the performance figures for Scotland are consistently over 90 per cent in terms of people being seen within the target time. Now, in looking under the surface and looking underneath that national figure, then we see even more complex examples in terms of performance. Wrexham Maelor Hospital has the A&E department that is performing worst across the UK. There, almost 50 per cent of people had to wait over four hours to be seen. Glan Clwyd Hospital in St Asaph is the third worst in the UK, and almost 700 people last month had to wait over 12 hours there. To put this in some perspective, only 210 people had to wait over 12 hours to be seen in all Scottish hospitals in November. And when we turn to patients being held in ambulances, almost two thirds of patients wait more than a quarter of an hour in an ambulance outside Maelor and Glan Clwyd hospitals. Are these failings so grave now that they endanger life?

Well, Llywydd, it is unacceptable that people are kept waiting in some places in the way that the Member described, and the performance at the Wrexham Maelor Hospital is not acceptable to the Welsh NHS, it's not acceptable to the Minister and not acceptable to the board of Betsi Cadwaladr either. Huge efforts are going on to make sure that the position there is improved for the future.

The Member chooses to point today to England as his preferred comparison for Wales. Let me tell him what the Royal College of Emergency Medicine said in January, this January, about the performance in England, where the college said

'bed occupancy remains close to 95 per cent'

and

'conditions for patients and staff in Emergency Departments'

—in England 'are very tough indeed.'

And they are very tough in Wales too, but there is no easy answer to point to somewhere that has everything right. We know that isn't the case. On the whole, the performance across Wales in this winter has been an improvement on where we were last year, and where there are problems, we will tackle them.

Well, I asked you, First Minister, whether this situation puts lives at risk. Well, over the—you didn’t answer that point, and over the last year, the coroner in north Wales has presented a notice to the NHS in Wales in order to prevent deaths in the future on four different occasions. In these reports, the coroner draws specific attention to concerns about ambulances being held back, a shortage of staff and delays in providing treatment in A&E departments. And in his most recent report, in the case of Gladys May Williams, John Gittins, the chief coroner for north Wales, said that there is no sign that progress is being made, despite the fact that he voiced concerns time and time again. He also said that he’s extremely concerned that the lives of patients are being put at risk as a result of this.

Yesterday, before the Public Accounts Committee, Andrew Goodall, the chief executive of NHS Wales, admitted that the performance of A&E departments in Betsi Cadwaladr was unacceptable, and had deteriorated since you put the board under special measures in June 2015, three and a half years ago. And that was partly as a result of losing sight on the performance of A&E because it wasn’t an area that you prioritised for intervention from the outset.

Do you regret that now? Do you accept that the scale of this problem is so grave that we must have an independent review as a matter of urgency to look at the condition of emergency care across the whole of Wales, starting in north Wales? Or, as happened in the case of Tawel Fan, do we have to wait for further pain and unnecessary suffering before you will be willing to take responsibility and to take action?

Llywydd, I've already said that we accept that. Performance in some parts of the NHS has not been acceptable. We are aware of that because the checks and balances in the NHS, the reports we get from people such as coroners, such as Health Inspectorate Wales, from within the system itself, give us the information that we need in order to be able to focus on those places, where the general improvement we have seen in the NHS in Wales over this winter has not been apparent.

Llywydd, I absolutely do not agree that what we need is another report into the Welsh NHS. We know the things that need to be done. We know where the pinch points are to be found. The job is to get on and make sure that the general improvements are shared elsewhere and everywhere, and we don't need months and months taken up in another inquiry of the sort the Member suggests to give us that information.

Leader of the Welsh Conservatives—Paul Davies.

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, a recent survey by the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust brought to light the disturbing fact that one in 20 people in the UK do not believe that the Holocaust really happened. In light of this, what is the Welsh Government doing to ensure that this denial and the prevalence of anti-Semitism are addressed, and that we work to keep the devastating memory of the Holocaust relevant so that future generations can learn from history?

Llywydd, can I begin by agreeing with what the Member has said? It is shocking to read that figure, and very hard indeed to credit how it can be true that that number of people would have been captured by that sense of denial of one of the most awful occurrences of the whole of the twentieth century. The job of addressing it falls partly to Government, of course, and this Government will want to do everything we can. I was very pleased to be able to join other Members of this Assembly at the Holocaust memorial service here in Cardiff at the end of last week—an immensely dignified occasion where we heard directly from some people who are still alive who were caught up in those shocking events.

We will want to do what we can, but the problem, as I'm sure the leader of the opposition would acknowledge, is wider than Government; it is a cultural issue more broadly in our society. There is a need to mobilise a whole range of different actions that can be taken to make sure that we never—we never—accept that people who were the victims of those dreadful events are either forgotten or, at the worst, are blamed themselves for what took place.

I agree with you, First Minister; we all have a responsibility. Now, the figures released by the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust demonstrate just how far we need to go to ensure that, as a society, we have a solid understanding of what happened during the Holocaust. We are all bound by responsibility to ensure that happens. Research from the Antisemitism Policy Trust found that online searches looking for information on the Holocaust being a hoax rise about 30 per cent every year on Holocaust Memorial Day, and anti-Semitic searches in Wales are higher than in any other part of the United Kingdom. We've also seen the number of racially motivated hate crimes increase here in Wales as well. I'm sure you'll agree with me that awareness and education are the best means of addressing this. Therefore, are you confident that learning about the Holocaust and the consequences of religious or ethnic genocide are given enough emphasis in Wales's new curriculum?

I do believe that those points are well understood amongst those people who are responsible for designing the new curriculum. In that service held in Cardiff City Hall on Friday, amongst the most moving parts of a moving service were the two young people from Wales who had visited Auschwitz as part of a programme run by the Welsh Government and who came back to reflect to the rest of us the lessons that they felt that they had learnt, and to say to us as well how they were using those lessons to talk to other young people in their own age range and in their own institutions about the effect that that experience had had on them.

There'll be other people, I know, around the Chamber, who've made the same visit; I did myself some years ago. It was an overwhelming experience in many ways; it was very hard just to take in the nature of what you saw in front of you and to try to make sense of what you were seeing and to think of what lessons we all need to draw from it. Making sure that we have young people in Wales who continue to do that and to help the rest of us to draw those lessons, I think, is a demonstration of the way that these things are taken seriously in the education system in Wales and of our determination that they will continue to be so.

Of course, with few remaining survivors of the Holocaust alive today, it is our duty to continue to educate our younger generations to have even the most basic understanding of those events and to support the commemorations taking place across Wales to promote awareness. And as politicians, we have a responsibility to show leadership on this issue, we must ensure that anti-Semitic rhetoric is not normalised in society and we must do what we can to end Holocaust revisionism. We must also collectively consider the context of how we discuss anti-Semitism in order to avoid further exacerbating this issue, and I'm sure you agree with these sentiments, First Minister. Can you therefore outline what work the Welsh Government is doing to support commemorations taking place across Wales now and in the future and commit to ensure that appropriate resources will be available in order for these to continue to take place?

Well, Llywydd, can I thank the leader of the opposition for choosing to use his questions this afternoon for this really important matter and to do so just at the point where those commemorations across Wales have happened over this last weekend? We do have resources that the Welsh Government devotes to assist in that. We will certainly want to go on doing so into the future. I'll think carefully about the points that he's made in his final contribution in this part of our proceedings this afternoon, and some of the things that Paul Davies has said are echoes of the contribution we heard on Friday from a survivor of that Holocaust experience, when she challenged everybody who was in that service to do the things that individuals need to do to make sure that those memories are kept alive, that the ceremonies that we have put in place do continue and that we are able to return year on year, explaining to those who were directly affected by these things how we go on bearing witness to their suffering.

The leader of the UKIP group—Gareth Bennett. 

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, planning is an issue that is often contentious. One of the things that you've done in forming your Government is that you've moved planning to the department for local government and housing. I think that move is theoretically a good thing: to have the same Minister responsible for housing, for local government and for planning. This could, hopefully, lead to a more joined-up approach. Now, I wonder, does this move signify that your Government believes that the planning process in Wales has to be more responsive to the wishes of local people?

Well, Llywydd, Gareth Bennett is right in saying that the purpose of putting local government planning and housing in the same portfolio is to do everything that we can to make those things more joined together and to make the planning system more effective in delivering on some of our major policy ambitions here in Wales, including the provision of new and affordable housing, and that, indeed, does lie behind the decision to bring those matters together in the one portfolio.

I see that you need to make things more effective in terms of your objectives as a Government. Sometimes, that may cause conflict with the need to be responsive to public opinion. So, to look at a case in point that arose recently—one of many that I could raise—we have the Hendy windfarm development proposed for an area of mid Wales near Llandrindod Wells, a windfarm of some size that was rejected by local people who submitted hundreds of objections to the plan. It was also rejected by Powys County Council, which also voted against the scheme, and, additionally, the planning inspector declared against the scheme when he made his report. It does seem odd, therefore, given this opposition from almost all quarters, that your Welsh Government has been trying to railroad this development through. Now, I'm not asking you to comment on this particular case, but do you think it is wise in future for your Government to take decisions that can have a huge environmental impact on a local area and which seem to totally fly in the face of local democracy?

Well, the Member is right, I'm not going to comment on the individual case. There is an important point behind what he is saying, which is that any of these matters is a balance between many different factors at play. The planning process is designed to try and achieve that balance, but any person or interest group taking part in any particular example will have strong views. In the end, these things have to be reconciled and they end up being reconciled in a particular decision. Not everybody will agree with that, it's impossible to imagine that they would, but I think that the planning policy we have in Wales and the policies that were recently refreshed by my colleague Lesley Griffiths, when she was responsible for this matter, offer us the best opportunity to make sure that the process is able to hear from all of those who have an interest in a matter, to weigh up the different outcomes that are being pursued, and then in the end to make a decision to allow a matter to be moved forward.

I think, First Minister, of course, theoretically, you're right, there is a need for balance, but I'm not sure how much balance there has been in this particular case. Of course, we're not necessarily just looking at that case. But I do think there is an issue with local democracy at stake here, and I do feel that the people who live near Hendy do need more than warm words; they actually need to feel that the Welsh Government is likely to listen to them and to listen to their concerns. Of course, UKIP's position is that we support local referenda for major planning decisions so that local residents do have the final say.

Do you think, if the Welsh Government proceeds with this turbine plan, that the residents in Hendy, and in other theoretical cases where there are similar planning issues—do you really think they're going to believe that the Welsh Government is listening to them? Do you think that people anywhere else in Wales facing planning problems would feel that the Welsh Government was listening to them?

Any constituency Member of this Assembly will be very familiar with instances in their own consistencies where people with strongly held views and differing views about particular planning applications will come to put those views to you. People whose views prevail go away feeling that the system has worked very well and that their voices were heard. People whose views are not on the winning side tend to go away feeling that the system hasn't delivered what they were hoping from it. That's just inevitable when you have matters on which people have strongly held but differing points of view.

The system we have is one with proper checks and balances in it that aims to provide all those people with strong views an opportunity to have those views heard, that takes into account expert advice alongside all of those things. I would much rather that we went about these matters in that careful and considered way, than to have a series of referendums around Wales in which a winner-takes-all result will leave even more people disillusioned with the process than the system that we've explored so far this afternoon.

Task and finish groups do not generally have a role in the development of ministerial responsibilities, but play an important part in informing the discharge of those responsibilities. 

Thank you for that answer, First Minister. In the recent scrutiny of the international relations Minister, she indicated she'd set up a task and finish group to advise her on her ministerial responsibilities. The Member for Blaenau Gwent, in questioning the Minister at that time, said that the paper she'd submitted was some kind of narrative, lacking any ambition or vision. In particular, under cross-examination from my colleague David Melding, the Minister conceded that actually the steer that you had given as First Minister on the expectation for that role was not the clearest and the role was a little uncertain. Can you clarify today, First Minister, what your ambition is for this role, or is your Government constrained by the ambition of setting up task and finish groups?

We are very ambitious for the role that my colleague Eluned Morgan is fulfilling, and she is absolutely right to say to you that it is a developmental role. I said to her when I was in a position to invite her to take up this responsibility that I thought it was the most exciting offer that I would be making to any Member of the Government that afternoon, because I was asking her to take on a job where part of her job would be to create the terms on which she would discharge the remit that I gave her. And the remit that I gave her I think is a really important one, designed deliberately, Llywydd, to make sure that in the Brexit context—the context that the questioner has been so keen to create—Wales's profile in the world, that our standing in those parts of Europe where we have worked so hard over 40 years to form relationships with other regional Governments—that that standing and stature of Wales is sustained under the pressures that Brexit will bring.

I'm very glad that my colleague Eluned Morgan has had the opportunity to explore these things in front of the committee, because that will strengthen our ability to make sure that that vitally important job is being discharged in the most effective way, and I've every confidence that the Member is exploring these matters with the committee and others, and with her task and finish group, with exactly that in mind.

I thank the Member for that question. Amongst my priorities is the production and implementation of a strengthened nature recovery action plan demonstrating the practical action needed to reverse the decline in biodiversity in Wales.

First Minister, most people in Wales live in urban areas, and many of our inner urban areas lack sufficient green space. If they were greener, I believe quality of life would be improved, air pollution would be lessened, people would be encouraged to have more of an outdoor life, taking more exercise and enjoying better health, and they would also, I think, feel more strongly linked with nature, so that would increase their appreciation of nature, their understanding of nature and their valuing of it, which I think would feed through into many desirable environmental behaviours, such as not littering as much, less fly-tipping, more participation in recycling schemes, and enjoying nature further afield, outside their immediate areas. So, with those benefits in mind, I wonder what early action Welsh Government will take to make our inner urban areas greener and more enjoyable for our local communities.

Llywydd, I'm sure that John Griffiths is right when he points to the many different benefits that would come from a renewed focus on making the very most of the opportunities that there are in our urban areas to contribute to reversing the decline in our basic ecosystem and to make it resilient again. Those of us who live in the inner city of Cardiff are very well aware of actions that are already happening where local people are recolonising bits of green space that had otherwise been neglected, turning them into places where a greater diversity of natural species are to be found, making them more attractive to local residents to visit, planting fruit and vegetables in there as well, and doing all the things that John Griffiths said in answer to the question.

I know that he will be interested to know that on Monday of this week my colleague Lesley Griffiths was able to announce the first set of projects to benefit from the new funding stream that a number of us around this Chamber debated during the passage of the landfill disposals tax in Wales when we set up a new community scheme. Twenty-seven projects worth £1 million were announced by my colleague on Monday, and that included the Wastesavers Charitable Trust in Newport, which will benefit from £42,000 for a scheme that will increase awareness of reusing matters in the local community, contributing to a better environment in a different way. All of these things have an important part to play in achieving the sort of inner urban revival, as far as the environment is concerned, that John Griffiths has often championed in this Chamber.

First Minister, Natural Resources Wales is key to delivering the Welsh Government's policy priorities for the environment. Last month, the results of staff consultation on plans by NRW to reorganise the agency were leaked to the BBC. The BBC reported that 62 per cent of staff were strongly opposed to the reorganisation plans and were highly critical of the process. A week ago, 10 timber firms said they had, in their words, no confidence in the ability of Natural Resources Wales to manage forestry following a damning report by the Public Accounts Committee into timber sales. First Minister, why is it that your Government still has confidence in Natural Resources Wales to deliver your environmental priorities when it is clear that Assembly Members, timber companies and NRW staff themselves do not? Thank you.

The confidence that we have in NRW comes from the new chief executive that we have in place, the very distinguished interim chair that is now in charge of the board of the organisation, and the renewal of the board that my colleague Lesley Griffiths carried out towards the end of last year. NRW does enormously important work in all parts of Wales. It has a very dedicated staff group who carry out things that matter every day to people in Wales, let alone at times when there are emergencies, such as flood protection work.

As far as the specific matter that the Member raised in relation to a letter from a group of timber organisations—NRW met that group earlier this week. Officials of the Welsh Government will meet them on Thursday of this week—that is in advance of a meeting that we hope will be possible between the Minister and that group before 11 February, when the Public Accounts Committee will return to this matter, and there's to be a debate on the floor of this Assembly in this area in February as well. There will be ample opportunity there for us to be able to share with Members the steps that NRW are taking, with help from the Welsh Government, to put itself in an even stronger position to discharge the very significant responsibilities it has.

Llywydd, there are 23 historic private finance initiative contracts with Welsh public bodies currently operational in Wales. The annual service payment for these schemes totals around £105 million. These schemes must be the subject of regular review, and arrangements for that review will be set out shortly.

This is an issue I've raised regularly with the First Minister when he was Cabinet Secretary for Finance. I believe PFI schemes are expensive and a waste of public money, and are taking money out of revenue. Will the First Minister undertake a cost-benefit analysis for all of the schemes currently paid for by Assembly-funded public bodies in Wales, and then consider using invest-to-save to buy out those where it would be beneficial to do so, which I believe would probably be most of them?

I thank Mike Hedges for that question and for the regular advice that he has provided on this matter—advice that, as he knows, is consistent with the approach that successive Welsh Governments have taken since devolution. In Wales, citizens pay about £40 per head each year as a result of PFI schemes, and that's about a fifth of what citizens in other parts of the United Kingdom have to pay.

I agree with what Mike Hedges has said, Llywydd—that there should be a review of historic PFI schemes. The Welsh Government will shortly be writing out to all contracting authorities in Wales to make sure that that happens, and that it happens every year. In the first instance, it is for those contracting authorities to review the contracts and to see where there may be potential scope to make savings on their annual service payments. In order to incentivise that practice, the policy we will pursue will be that that authority will be able to retain any savings that it generates in that way.

In cases where an authority is considering early termination of the contract, then there will need to be a dialogue between that authority and the Welsh Government. We may be able to look at measures such as our invest-to-save fund to assist them in doing just that.

First Minister, I'm more than happy to support Mike Hedges in his call for that review of spending on PFI projects within Wales. We do know that some of the early PFIs particularly were very costly, and you've quoted the £100 million a year—£105 million a year—cost figure that the Wales Governance Centre have also provided.

Whilst I appreciate that your Government is certainly sceptical of PFI, you are supportive of the mutual investment model. Can you tell us what lessons have been learnt from some of those problems with the early PFI projects to make sure that the way that the Welsh Government works with the private sector to deliver initiatives using the MIM model doesn't encounter, over the longer term, some of the problems that PFI faced in the past?

I thank the Member for that question and for the interest that he has taken in the mutual investment model, which is indeed designed to make sure that we learn the lessons from the past. It incorporates the best of the Scottish non-distributing model, and I noted with interest, Llywydd, that the First Minister of Scotland referred to developing their ideas on the basis of our model as they look to invest further in infrastructure projects in Scotland.

So, the mutual investment model will not, for example, be used to finance soft services, such as cleaning and catering, and they were often at the heart of the inexpensive and inflexible contracts in the historic PFI model, nor will MIM be used to finance capital equipment. A public interest director will be appointed by the Welsh Government to manage a public shareholding, which we intend to take in each MIM scheme, ensuring that the public sector participates in any return on the investment that we are making. As well as being of interest to the First Minister of Scotland, Llywydd, the United Nations, which has recently produced a compendium of innovative finance schemes—people-first schemes, it's called—highlights the MIM as a model of a way of doing things that promotes well-being, value for money and transparency in the way that the scheme has been structured. 

I thank the Member. An updated version of the national transport finance plan will be published in February 2019. It will set out the Welsh Government's priorities across the range of transport modalities. 

I'm very grateful for that answer, First Minister. One of the priorities that I think your Government should adopt is to protect the existing transport infrastructure. We had some very stormy weather over the weekend and this was particularly visible on the Old Colwyn sea defences and the promenade in my own constituency, which were further undermined by those storms this weekend and indeed were washing cars towards the danger of the open sea. I would be very grateful if you could bring forward some investment in order to address the problems with those sea defences. As you will be aware, they protect vital railway infrastructure and the A55 trunk road. These are not considered to be sufficiently high in terms of priority by your Government at the moment. Will you review this as soon as you can, because we're on borrowed time and we've been warned time and time again by engineers that these are looking at catastrophic failure and they're beyond their shelf life? We need action now before lives are lost.  

I thank the Member for drawing attention to that again. I'm familiar from previous occasions when he's highlighted this matter about the Old Colwyn sea defences and of course I'm concerned to hear what he said about further undermining of them over the weekend. The issue, as the Member knows, is this: we are committed to doing something in that area, working with the local authority, but the greatest beneficiaries from the work that needs to be carried out will not be individual residents, of whom there are relatively few that will be protected by improved sea defences. The major beneficiaries will be Network Rail and Dŵr Cymru, and they have to come to the table to provide a contribution as well. If the public purse is to be invested in this—and the Member always makes a strong case for why that should be so—then other organisations that will benefit from the money that the Welsh public will put up will also have to be at the table. Anything that we can do and that he can do to persuade them to come to the table in that way will help to advance the timing of the case that he makes again today. 

The First Minister will be aware that I am very supportive of dualling the Britannia crossing between the mainland and Anglesey, and I’m grateful for the support that the Welsh Government has shown for that proposal. Does the First Minister agree with me that the most recent announcement on the suspension of the Wylfa Newydd project strengthens rather than weakens the argument for dualling that crossing, because the resilience of the crossing is crucial for promoting economic development on Anglesey as well as being important for the safety and security of that crossing between the island and the mainland more generally?

May I thank the Member for the question? I agree that the delay or the pause in the Wylfa scheme does create a new context for the bridge too. As Rhun ap Iorwerth knows, the Minister, before Christmas, announced the way forward that he favoured, or the preferred way forward, and I have heard from the Minister that the work that’s already ongoing will continue.

I thank the Member. Legislation to remove the defence of reasonable punishment will be published this year. The legislation will help achieve our aim of supporting children’s rights in Wales.

I'm grateful to the First Minister for his statement, but I'm sure that he will understand that some of us are a little frustrated with the timetable, bearing in mind that it is a good 15 years since this legislature first in principle expressed its wish to remove this unjustifiable defence. Can the First Minister provide us with reassurances that there will be sufficient time in the lifetime of this Assembly for this crucial legislation for the children of Wales to finally be passed?

Llywydd, I recognise the point the Member makes about the long gestation of this Bill. That's why we are determined that it will indeed reach the statute book during this Assembly term. We are working hard. We've been discussing it again this week to make sure that we are in a position to introduce the Bill as early as we are able to, and certainly in good time to make sure that it completes its passage through this Assembly. 

And, finally, question 8, Suzy Davies.

I thank the Member for that. Despite increased demand, waiting times for orthopaedic procedures in South Wales West are falling. The median waiting time for orthopaedic surgery in Hywel Dda, for example, is less than 14 weeks from referral to treatment. Nevertheless, where long waits exist, it is a priority for this Government that they too should be reduced.

Thank you for that last remark, First Minister, because my 87-year-old constituent was placed on the emergency list for knee surgery 16 months ago, with a promise of treatment in nine months—so, nine months is an emergency, apparently—but the target for surgery is six months. She's just been told that she has another year to wait, and she's 87. Otherwise very fit at that time, she's fallen several times since then because of her knee and is now physically and mentally frail. Because of that, she is no longer able to take up the offer of being able to travel to the European Union for private surgery at a cost that is, of course, much, much lower than it is here in the UK. Now, this isn't a Brexit question; the point I'm making is, because of her wait, she's become frail, she can't take up that offer to go to the EU, and she has to pay three times as much here in Wales now, using her own and her husband's funeral funds in order to do that. At 87, you can understand why she is desperate. So, on equality grounds, should there be reimbursement of the difference between the private money she's paying here and the private money she would have been paying had she gone to the EU? The only reason she didn't go is because she was made promises by the local NHS about when she would be treated that were not met. She would have gone sooner if she'd been told how long she'd have to wait. 

Llywydd, I'm not in a position to announce new policy in answer to a question, of course. But the case that the Member raised is concerning, and I'm sure that, if she were to write directly to the health Minister, he will certainly be willing to consider the details of the specific case and any policy issues that arise from it.

I thank the First Minister. 

The next item is the business statement and announcement. I call on the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd, Rebecca Evans.

Diolch, Llywydd. There are two changes to this week's business. Tomorrow, the Government seeks to schedule a debate on the prospects for a Brexit deal following the House of Commons vote. To enable this to happen, I will propose a motion to suspend the necessary Standing Orders as the final item of business this evening. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.  

Can I call for two statement today, please? It may not have escaped Members' notice that today is Safer Internet Day, and, as we all know, there are dangers lurking online, particularly for our young people. I'd be grateful if we can have an update on the work that's been done by the Minister for Education and any other Ministers in Government regarding internet safety for young people, and will you join me by putting on the record your recognition of the good work that's being done by Childnet, the Internet Watch Foundation and others in bringing this matter to our attention yet again this year?

Can I also call for an update from the Minister for Health and Social Services in relation to perinatal mental health? It's been reported to me that the number of individuals working within the perinatal mental health team in north Wales has fallen in recent months, and that, as a result of that, access to the perinatal mental health team has been restricted so that only women with babies up to six weeks old are currently getting access to that team. Clearly, that is not an acceptable situation, and I know that that's not the Government's intention either. So, I'd be very grateful if we could have an update either by written statement or oral statement in this Chamber from the health Minister just to tell us what is being done to improve the capacity of that team so that mothers can get access at what is a very desperate time, very often, in their lives.

Thank you for raising both of these important issues this afternoon. Certainly, on the issue of internet safety, I know the Minister for Education would be pleased to provide a statement, and I would certainly put on record the Government's thanks to organisations such as Childnet and the Internet Watch Foundation for the important work that they do in this area, and of course we have the short debate at the end of Plenary tomorrow, which has been tabled by Bethan Sayed, and we'll have the opportunity to look at issues relating to internet safety there as well.

On the matter of perinatal mental health, it's clearly a hugely important issue, and I know that the health Minister will be pleased to write to you with the update that you require.

Trefnydd, I've had to raise the issue of pay inequality for medical histopathology trainees in Wales on a number of occasions in this Chamber. You will recall I first raised this issue in a written question back in November 2016, yet the issue remains unresolved. Over the course of the five years of training as doctors between ST1 and ST5, histopathology doctor trainees in England will earn £60,000 more than their Welsh equivalents. Now, I'm sure that we all agree that doctors who decide to train in Wales deserve parity with their counterparts across the border doing the same training, doing the same work. Trainees have told me that they feel that, by deciding to work in Wales, they are being financially punished for that decision. The workforce are disillusioned and demoralised because of the way that they're being treated and ignored by this Welsh Government.

We hear so often of the need to attract medics to Wales due to shortages, yet this is how we treat those who actually choose to study here. Despite being aware of the gap, the Welsh Government has done absolutely nothing about the situation. It is disgraceful. Back in October 2018, when I last raised this issue, the then leader of the house said that the health Minister would be prepared to bring forward a statement on the matter. The frustration among the trainees is palpable, and, having had to wait more than two and a half years for action, I would respectfully suggest that action needs to be taken sooner rather than later. Could I therefore ask the Minister for health to bring forward a statement, be it written or oral, on this issue, and take action on this matter by putting Welsh medical trainees on an equal footing to those in England?

This issue is very much tied up with the doctors contract negotiations that are currently under way, and I know that the health Minister is meeting with the British Medical Association in the next few weeks and would certainly expect this issue to be discussed at that meeting.

Very good news on the announcement on the first round of funds with the new Welsh success of the landfill tax, but could we have a statement on what could be done to actively encourage those areas that are within those five-mile circles around landfill areas that have not yet applied for funding, including places in my own patch such as Llanharan, Llanharry, Cefn Cribwr and Coytrahen and others? And, on that matter, it's good to see that the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, who administer the fund on behalf of Welsh Government, are, in fact, taking part in Chris Elmore and I's fundraising event in Maesteg Celtic on 15 March, so people can come there.

Could we also have a debate on how we can encourage people to use public transport to actually leave Cardiff to go back to the Valleys after seeing events late at night? Because, at the moment, anybody living in Pencoed who's been to the Welsh National Opera, or me having been to see Stiff Little Fingers in Tramshed or whatever, we have to catch the train at 10:30, or sometimes earlier, to get back. Well, that means the choice is, frankly, leave the concert early or it's a taxi or get a friend to run you back. It's not good enough, when you can go to Bristol at 01:30 in the morning, or Swansea at 01:20 in the morning, or Pontypridd at 11:30, but at 10:30 you have to leave to go anywhere on the line to Maesteg. So, could we have a debate on that? Because the Welsh Government's drive to get people out of their cars into public transport is laudable; we need to make it happen with timetabling. 

Thank you for raising these issues and, certainly, it is exciting now that we're being able to see the fruits of the landfill disposal tax benefiting community schemes in the areas that are eligible. The first window, as you know, has been announced this last week, but the application now for the second round of funding has just closed, so we will be looking to make some announcements on that in due course. And the number of applications that we had in that second round has increased, and I would certainly hope that there will be in increases in future rounds as well. The WCVA is monitoring the applications that are made and they're certainly targeting those eligible areas where there have been smaller numbers of applications received in each of those funding cycles, in conjunction with the local county voluntary councils. So, there will be certainly communications going out to those areas, to ensure that communities that can be making the most of this scheme are benefiting. And I know that the Minister with responsibility for transport will be bringing forward a statement on railways very shortly, so there will be opportunity to explore some of the issues that you've described. 

Trefnydd, I'd like to request two statements today. Firstly, I'd like to thank the Minister for health for his written statement updating AMs on maternity services in Cwm Taf. I'm also grateful to the Minister for meeting with me and other AMs to discuss this, and I've also had frank and useful conversations with the chair of the health board. However, could we have an oral statement in Government time so that AMs can really scrutinise what is, after all, such an important issue for my constituents, who should be able to expect safe, good-quality maternity services?

Secondly, at lunchtime today, I attended the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers campaign event for better pay, and I was horrified to find out there that people on universal credit could lose out on a week's rent during 2019-20. This is due to the way that the Department for Work and Pensions and social landlords calculate in different ways the number of weeks in that year, due to the financial year having 53 Mondays. Now, the net effect could be that, if you are on UC, you could lose a week's rent, and this could have serious repercussions, for example, for tenants of Trivallis, a social landlord in my constituency, who pay their rent weekly. Could we have a statement from Welsh Government on its response to this and how it's working with social landlords to make sure that people on universal credit don't lose out?

Thank you for raising both of these issues. With regard to the first, on Cwm Taf maternity services, I know that we're now currently awaiting the full recommendations within the full report, which are due in the spring, and the health Minister has committed to updating Members with more information on receipt of that report and those recommendations. 

On the second issue, of universal credit, as you know, Welsh Government has time and time again raised our concerns with regard to the fundamental flaws of universal credit, and this is another example of how it is failing people within our communities in Wales. The Deputy Minister for Housing and Local Government has committed to raising this issue with the Minister for employment in the UK Government. 

Minister, may I ask for a statement from the Welsh Government on proposals to relax planning laws to allow taller mobile phone masts to be built in Wales. Restrictions on mast heights were relaxed in England and Scotland in 2016 so that masts up to 25m do not have to go through the full planning process. The Welsh Government promised more than two years ago to look at the evidence before deciding whether to increase the limit in Wales from its current 15m. The lack of mobile coverage is causing great frustration and annoyance to people in many areas in Wales. May we have a statement from the Welsh Government on when they are likely to come to a decision on this important issue to improve mobile coverage in Wales, please?

Thank you for raising this issue. Changes to permitted development rights, as you recognised in your question, certainly does require an evidence-based approach, which is why we published 'Planning for Mobile Telecommunications: An Assessment of Permitted Development Rights In Wales' in January of last year, to inform work on revising permitted development rights for telecommunications. Amendments to permitted development rights on telecommunications are expected to take effect towards the end of spring this year. However, it's important, I think, to recognise that taller masts do not provide a single solution to the issue of improving mobile service and coverage across Wales, because, of course, our topography and our population distribution does make complete mobile coverage very challenging, and I'm sure that we all recognise that on our travels around the country. 

I concur with the points made earlier about the maternity services at the Royal Glamorgan Hospital and I would support the calls for a statement. I also agree with the point made earlier about the late night trains to the Valleys, and I'd like to add my weight behind that statement as well.

But I'd like to bring another matter in relation to public transport to your attention, and that's an incident that occurred last Friday evening at Pontypridd railway station. A group of women were waiting on the platform for their train home to the Rhondda, when they were approached by a gang of around 30 or more young people. The gang are purported to have intimidated, harassed, and insulted this small group of women on the platform, and, at one stage, they are said to have surrounded one woman and moved to push her towards the track as the train approached. Now, the intimidation and abusive behaviour is said to have continued on the train and it culminated with rubbish being thrown at the women, and it only stopped when the people got off the train. Now, I was alarmed to hear about this account, which I discussed at length yesterday with a concerned employee of Transport for Wales. I've written to Transport for Wales about this, but I'd be grateful if we could receive a statement from the transport Minister to let us know what measures can be taken to improve passenger, as well as train employee, safety during late-night services.

I'd also like to raise the issue of homelessness with you once again. Following my raising of this issue with you in Plenary last week, a Tory councillor in Cardiff has come under considerable criticism—and rightly so, in my view—for posing next to some tents in the city centre and calling for them to be torn down by Cardiff Council. Now, this view found some support from the Labour cabinet member for housing, Lynda Thorne, who said,

'The charities giving out tents need to understand they are putting rough sleepers at risk.'

What Councillor Kelloway and Councillor Thorne fail to realise is that hostels, for various reasons, are not always suitable for everyone, and that these tents, especially in weather like this, can mean the difference between life and death when someone has nowhere else to turn. So, I would urge you to condemn criticism of anyone who is giving out tents to homeless people, and I would be grateful if you could clarify Labour's position on this.

And lastly, it has been brought to my attention that UKIP has apparently been distributing a leaflet on the Tory withdrawal agreement in England that is beyond the pale even for their usually extremely low standards. At the foot of this leaflet, there is the inflammatory paragraph that says,

'We would classify anyone prepared to vote for this agreement as a national traitor, or state enemy—and we're watching you.'

It seems that lessons are still to be learned from the tragic death of Jo Cox MP. Now, this may be a matter that has occurred in England, and I have asked Sussex Police to look into this matter, but there are members of this party sitting in this Chamber. So I would urge you to send a strong message that language of this kind will not be tolerated. And, further, can we have a statement from a Government representative to encourage people that, if they do receive a leaflet from UKIP, containing these threats, to report it to the police because this kind of threat-based politics should not be tolerated?

Thank you very much. I hear the former leader of UKIP shouting 'pathetic' from his seat in the Chamber, which I think doesn't come as a surprise, but I completely condemn what was written in that leaflet. Leanne Wood is entirely correct to remind us all of the tragedy that happened not very long ago. And the language of 'traitors' and the language that is threatening and inflammatory just has no place in politics at all. And so I would certainly commend the Member for taking the matter forward with Sussex Police.

And, of course, compassionate Conservatism is alive and well in Cardiff as well, because, again, we think that it's an entirely inappropriate response to call for these tents to be torn down—I think that was the phrase. Again, it doesn't reflect the fact that we are talking about human people who have had, in many cases, the most difficult lives imaginable, which have found them in that place. The Welsh Government is keen to support in any way we possibly can. We recognise that different types of hostels and different types of accommodation are needed because there is no one type that is suitable for everyone. And the Minister, I know, answered your questions on this last week, but she will be bringing forward a statement on homelessness and rough sleeping in Government time to the Assembly next week.

And, again, I'm very alarmed to hear what you say about the issues in Pontypridd on the railway station. I mentioned in response to a previous request for a statement that the Minister with responsibility for transport would bring forward a statement on railways, so this might be an appropriate time to have that discussion with him. 

Trefnydd, or leader of the house, last week, I'm sure you were as appalled as I was about the reports in the media about children being refused school dinners simply because the dinner payment card hadn't been topped up in time. In fact, there was a report about one child who had acquired their school dinner, gone to the till to find out that there was no money available for that individual child to have a dinner, and that dinner was removed from that child. Now, that is the most appalling treatment of any child in school, and I'm sure it will live with that individual for some time, should that be the case. 

Now, I've raised this before—cashless payment systems—and I have to be fair, in that Powys County Council have now taken some action to alert parents when their money is diminished or running extremely low. But we cannot repeatedly hear stories like this. So, I would ask, leader of the house, whether you could have further discussion with the Minister for Education, who I know has worked on this, to do some further work and provide some further education to both parents and also school staff so that these situations do not keep repeating themselves. 

Thank you for raising this important issue, and I have already had some discussions with the education Minister on this issue, and officials will investigate with the WLGA and the local association for catering in education just how widespread this issue is and consider whether we need to be providing additional advice and guidance to local authorities and schools on how to work with families, should these circumstances arise.

I think there are two different circumstances that families might find themselves in. For example, they just forget to top up the money, because life is busy and people forget things, or there could be families who are really, really struggling and unable to pay. So, I think there is a role for schools to understand where this family is in terms of that situation and be able to signpost on to advice, or certainly offer up contact to somebody within the local authority should they know that a family is struggling, and there is support available for them.

But you're point really about not holding children publicly accountable is an important one, because by stigmatising children in any way for unpaid school bills, well, that's completely unacceptable. 

I call for two formal Welsh Government statements on interrelated matters. The British Polio Fellowship marks its eightieth anniversary this month—January 2019—and I call for a Welsh Government statement on its support for the estimated 12,000 people in Wales who had polio, and the many more who perhaps never knew that they had it.

I'll take this opportunity to thank the British Polio Fellowship also for having asked me to become their Welsh Assembly patron. Three months ago, I called for a Welsh Government statement on post-polio syndrome, highlighting the need for improved awareness, with only 7 per cent of people surveyed recognising the syndrome at all. The fellowship wants to raise awareness amongst parliamentarians of all parties and develop this awareness in this National Assembly, as do their group leader in north Wales, Joan Deverell, and their group leader in south Wales, Coral Williams. They say, 

'The end game is now tantalisingly within our grasp, but that we are still here supporting 120,000 living with Post Polio Syndrome...in the UK'—

including those in Wales—

'shows we will not truly have consigned Polio to the history books until every last survivor with PPS is no more. British Polio has invaluable world leading knowledge of how to treat PPS; with careful self-management and defined care pathways, independent living is possible.'

As their national UK chair states, 

'what a wonderful present it would be if the charity’s 80th anniversary in 2019 is finally the year the world sees the global eradication of Polio, with the end game now seemingly within reach.'

And I call for a statement accordingly.

Now, when I recently met the group leader for the British Polio Fellowship in north Wales, she also raised with me concerns about a cluster of cases of a new virus, flaccid myelitis, in Glasgow and the need for Wales to prepare for this, because parents are already asking them about this and raising their concerns. Now, acute flaccid paralysis and acute flaccid myelitis cause weakness of the arms, legs or face. In the past, the acute flaccid paralysis was commonly due to poliovirus infection. Public Health England has seen an increase in reports of acute neurological conditions linked to this, with the majority of cases in children. Increases have also been reported in Europe and the USA. Public Health England declared a national incident last November—November 2018—to investigate this apparent increase in cases, but all cases had been investigated to exclude polio and also identify other potential causes, including non-polio enterovirus infections. But we've been unable to find any reference to any discussion of this issue in Wales. Given the rising concern in England, in Scotland, in Europe and the USA, I call for a Welsh Government statement accordingly.

Thank you very much for raising this issue, and we would certainly share that aspiration that, in the eightieth year of the British Polio Fellowship, we could see the endgame being in reach, as you described it. I know that you will do sterling work in terms of raising this issue amongst Assembly Members right across the Chamber, as you are doing this afternoon.

With regard to the cluster of cases of a new virus that you've talked about, can I suggest that the health Minister has some discussion with Public Health Wales to explore the issue as to how it might be best addressed in Wales and then to write to you with the conclusions of that discussion?

May I ask the Trefnydd to discuss with the Minister for the economy whether it's possible to issue a further statement, preferably an oral statement, to this Assembly, following the announcement made that the Schaeffler plant in Llanelli is in fact going to close? I'm grateful to the Minister for his written statement yesterday, but we'd appreciate an oral statement, because I and, I'm sure, other Members, particularly those who represent that area, would like to be able to ask more about the specifics of the support that's going to be provided to the 220 workers and their families who are facing redundancies. I'm sure that the Welsh Government is very well aware that these are not the kinds of jobs that we can afford to lose from Llanelli, or indeed from anywhere in Wales. So, we'd appreciate the opportunity to ask more about the specifics of support and of what work the Welsh Government will be doing with the local authority and with others to try and find suitable replacement employment, both for individuals, but employment opportunities.

I'd also appreciate the opportunity to ask the Minister what lessons may have been learnt from this process. Was there anything more that the Welsh Government could have done to work with this company, perhaps at an early stage, to persuade them to stay and to explore further what may need to be done in a post-Brexit environment to work with international companies to make sure that jobs of this quality are not lost?

Thank you very much, and obviously the news that the Schaeffler plant in Llanelli will now, it seems, definitely close is extremely upsetting for the workforce and their families and, indeed, the wider communities in the area, and our thoughts, of course, are very much with those who have been affected by what is a really big blow to the area and to individuals.

As a Welsh Government, we are committed to doing all that we can to retain good-quality jobs in the area, so we, as you say, have specially convened a taskforce, which will continue to work closely with the local authority and with the other partners you describe to explore every possible avenue to secure the future manufacturing potential of the site and also to ensure that Schaeffler workers can readily access a competitive package of advice and skills and training support. I appreciate that you'd like some more detail on that, so I will have a conversation with the Minister with responsibility for the economy to find out what would be the best way to provide that.

I'd like to ask for two statements, Minister. Firstly, I was glad to sponsor the launch of Usdaw's Time For Better Pay campaign at lunchtime to end in-work poverty. Usdaw surveyed over 10,500 members to understand the issues that they face as a result of low pay, shorter hour contracts and insecure work. Some of the results in this report are quite shocking. For example, two thirds of workers feel worse off now than they did five years ago. Three quarters of workers are relying on loans and borrowing to pay essential bills. Two thirds of workers say financial worries are impacting their mental health, and six in 10 workers have been unable to go away on holiday in the past year. Would you be able to meet with me, Minister, to discuss this report? And I'd be grateful for an update on the work that Welsh Government is doing to tackle in-work poverty.

Secondly, this week is Independent Venue Week, and these venues give artists their first experience of playing to live audiences and they're the backbone of the live music scene. Newport's Le Public Space is a music and arts centre based in the heart of the city centre and it's the largest independent space in the city for creative arts. Le Public Space is proudly born from Le Pub, which was a small but brilliant music venue in Newport that went for 25 years. Since it opened in 2017, Le Public Space has put on a full programme of live music, arts, comedy and is currently developing plans to expand. It's run by the inspirational Sam Dabb, and with the support of a dedicated board, the venue is a not-for-profit community benefit society run by the community for the community. Their mission is to provide a vibrant arts space that is open to all and everyone involved works to encourage diversity and to connect existing and new audiences with outstanding live music, art and cinema. So, could we have a statement on what Welsh Government can do to support local independent venues across Wales? And could the Minister suggest that the culture Minister, who I note is here, looks at Le Public Space as a fantastic example of an independent venue?

Thank you very much for raising both of these issues and, certainly, grass-roots music venues are a crucial part of our talent pipeline here in Wales in terms of the music industry. I think Le Public Space is a perfect example of how these businesses can not only adapt but also thrive as well in quite challenging circumstances. But also, it really contributes to the cultural life of our urban areas as well in giving Welsh talent their first opportunity to access their first audiences. So, we've really identified the value of grass-roots music venues to the cultural life of Wales.

Creative industries officials are commissioning a mapping exercise of grass-roots music venues across Wales, and that research study will provide a geographical map of these venues across the whole of the country, identifying clusters, for example. They'll consider their viability in terms of transport, access and audience, and consider the role in the night-time economy in the areas as well, and make some recommendations for potential interventions or improvements that Welsh Government can make. I know that Le Public Space will be one of those venues that will be looked at.

With regard to the report that has been launched today by Usdaw, and thank you very much for allowing this to happen here in the Assembly through your sponsorship of it, I'd like to pay tribute to the work that Usdaw does in terms of being a really strong voice for its members. I think that this report is particularly hard hitting. It tells us the impact that low pay has on people, unsteady jobs have on people and unfair contracts have on people. So, in terms of what we can do to it to respond to it, I would very much look to our commitment to making Wales a fair work nation and the work that we're doing through the Fair Work Commission to make recommendations to us on how we can improve what we're already doing, how we can use the levers that we have, but also to explore what other additional steps might be needed, for example, including legislation in future. So, this report will certainly be an important consideration for that commission that is due to come forward with recommendations in March of this year.

Could I request that in light of today's publication of the Health Inspectorate Wales report into how ABMU health board handled the Kris Wade investigation and review, the health Minister initiates a debate in Government time on this issue and not only a written statement, which we were given today? After all, we were told that it would be ready in December, and it wasn't, so, I, if nobody else, have waited a long while for this report to come out. In it, it shows that there were clear governance failures that have not been addressed in several other reviews and reports. And this review has repercussions, not only for ABMU, but for other health boards. So, I would like to see a debate on the floor of this Chamber so that we can scrutinise the leadership of ABMU under its current chairmanship and also understand what exactly the Welsh Government is going to do differently that it hasn't done to date in all the other reviews that have happened in relation to this case and also to very serious cases in ABMU.

I'd also like to request a second statement from the health Minister on the independence of Healthcare Inspectorate Wales. Yesterday, a member of staff at Healthcare Inspectorate Wales told my office that a copy of the review would be made available under embargo from 6.00 p.m. yesterday, which it was. My staff asked HIW why the report was not being given to us until 6.00 p.m. and we were told that it was out of respect for families so that they could see the report first. However, today, I've been shown an e-mail from a journalist that showed that they were sent the report at 9 o'clock yesterday, before Assembly Members in this national institution, using the families and those suffering as a ruse not to show it to AMs to evade scrutiny. I find that shocking. I find that totally unacceptable. Therefore, I would like to have a statement from the Welsh Government to show how this happened and why AMs are not being respected when these reports are coming out.

Thank you very much. You'll be aware that the Minister has made that written statement to which you refer today. The report does make 24 recommendations, three of which fall to Welsh Government to implement on an all-Wales basis and the Minister has accepted all three of those recommendations for Welsh Government in their entirety. He also expects all health boards to take full account of the findings and the specific health board to take full account of the recommendations for it, ensuring that they are addressed and that those changes are embedded in the policies and procedures.

He's also asked the National Independent Safeguarding Board to work with the NHS to further improve the mechanisms for sharing safeguarding learning, and work is well progressed with the safeguarding boards in Wales, supported by the Welsh Government, to deliver safeguarding procedures that do build on the existing statutory guidance. And he will be asking those safeguarding boards to take account of the findings of the reports as well. He expects all of the health boards at this stage to consider these findings.

Clearly, this is a very difficult day for the women involved in the case and for their families, and our thoughts are with them, and I'm grateful to the Member for raising this. Of course, probably the earliest opportunity that she would have to raise it on the floor with the Minister would be through topical questions and the Minister would be happy to take one should it be agreed.

And I will decide if it is agreed. 

And finally, Alun Davies.

Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. Minister, I'd like to ask for three statements from the Government, please. I'd like to ask for a statement from the Government on urban traffic management. I attended a public meeting in my constituency in Beaufort on Friday evening, and I was astonished to hear people talking there about the dangers they face in their daily lives along the roads through the community. I heard about children being knocked over, about people being unable to walk on pavements and about people being afraid to cross the road. Clearly, people can't be expected to live in these circumstances. And so, I would like to understand from the Welsh Government: what policies and what processes does the Government have in place to prioritise and manage traffic in urban environments? The people of Beaufort can't be expected to live the lives they are living and it's important the Government is able to create the structures and frameworks within which decisions can be taken to enable them to live their lives.

I'd like to ask for a statement from the Government on the future of buses and bus policy, as well. I heard the news on the weekend about the cuts to services in Cardiff. This is something we've seen a number of times in Blaenau Gwent, and bus services serving the communities of Blaenau Gwent and linking Blaenau Gwent with communities elsewhere and with social, shopping and work opportunities are simply falling to pieces. Now, it appears to me that if we're unable to run a bus service serving the capital of Wales in an urban, densely populated area, then the crisis facing bus services elsewhere must be so much greater. I would like to see a statement from the Government on what it intends to do to solve, to react and to respond to this crisis. I'm aware that there is a consultation being undertaken at the moment and I'm aware that the Government intends to legislate on this matter before the end of this Assembly. But that's going to be three, or possibly four years before we have a resolution of this matter. I don't believe that we can wait that long. I believe that we need a response from the Government early and within the next few weeks or months to respond to what I believe is a real crisis facing bus services up and down Wales.

I would also ask for a statement from the Government on the designation of sites of special scientific interest and other special places. I attended a public inquiry on Friday morning in Blaenavon alongside the Member for Torfaen, my good friend Lynne Neagle, and we both spoke at that public inquiry about the potentially disastrous and destructive application to quarry in an area called the 'canyon', which borders both our constituencies. Now, whilst I wouldn't expect the Government to comment upon any live planning inquiry, what I would expect the Government to be able to do is to give an estimation of its policy and approach to the designation of areas in general. It isn't so long ago that I was standing here launching the Valleys regional park and talking about the Government's ambitions and wishes to see us being able to enjoy the landscape and the heritage of the Valleys of south Wales, and now we see a business that wants to destroy that heritage and that landscape. The two are completely incompatible. So, I hope that the Government will be able to make a statement on this matter as well.

Thank you for raising these issues. On the last issue you raised regarding the designation of SSSIs and other special areas, I'll certainly ask the Minister to write to you with the clarity that you're asking for in terms of the explanation on the policy and the approach to designated areas.FootnoteLink

Again, on the issue of bus services, I had a conversation with the Minister for transport to explore when he might seek to bring forward a statement that would answer the questions that you've raised and also point you to some of the answers that, I think, the First Minister gave during First Minister's questions today, which did address some of those issues about urban traffic management. But if you wanted to write to the transport Minister directly with the specific area where you have concerns, I'm sure that he'd be keen to explore them further.

I thank the Trefnydd.

The next item is a statement by the Minister for Education: curriculum and assessment reform, a White Paper on proposals for legislative change. I call on the Minister for Education, Kirsty Williams. 

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. The publication of our curriculum and assessment White Paper marks an important milestone in Wales’s current education reform journey. It is also a significant moment in our history as a people who believe in education as an individual, community and national endeavour. For the first time ever, we are bringing forward our own 'made in Wales' legislative proposals for the school curriculum. Yes, made in Wales, but shaped by the best from around the world. It is fundamental to achieving our national mission to raise standards, reduce the attainment gap and deliver an education system that is a source of national pride and public confidence.

This is the realisation of the call made in the nineteenth century by the great educationalist and progressive, Elizabeth Phillips Hughes. She was the first principal of the Cambridge Teaching College for Women, and returned home to be the only woman on the committee that drafted the charter of the University of Wales. In arguing for co-education, the promotion of women’s education and the importance of a Welsh dimension to our education system, she said that

'Education must be national, and must be in our own hands'.

And today, we are moving forward on that promise.

The essential features of the current curriculum, devised in 1988 by the then Westminster Government, is out of time with recent and future shifts in technology and the development of our society and economy. The high degree of prescription in the national curriculum has tended to create a culture where creativity has been diminished. There has been a narrowing of teaching and learning, with the professional contribution of the workforce underdeveloped.

I am absolutely clear that to raise standards for all and expand opportunities, we need to empower schools and teachers by moving away from a narrow, inflexible and crowded curriculum. Our new curriculum will support young people to develop higher standards of literacy and numeracy, to become more digitally and bilingually competent, and evolve into enterprising, creative and critical thinkers. It will help to develop our young people as confident, capable and caring citizens of Wales—indeed, of the world.

Since 2016, we have been working with a network of pioneer schools, experts and a wide range of stakeholders to develop a new curriculum. I consider this to be a key strength of our reforms—reforms for the people of Wales, shaped by the people of Wales. This approach has allowed us to keep schools and learners at the very centre and heart of our developments. It has promoted ownership of the reforms, which is key in ensuring the changes we are making are right and are sustainable.

You will already be aware of the majority of the proposed legislative changes, as they reflect and stay true to the recommendations set out in 'Successful Futures', the cornerstone of our curriculum reform. We are proposing to legislate to ensure the four purposes set out in 'Successful Futures' will be at the core of the new curriculum, with learners benefiting from a broad spectrum of learning. We're returning to the fundamentals of education by introducing areas of learning and experience, covering the humanities, health and well-being, science and technology, languages, literacy and communication, expressive arts and maths. This means that we're moving away from the days of a narrow curriculum and on to a different approach of teaching and learning, a curriculum where we break down traditional subject boundaries and give teachers the flexibility to approach different issues from different angles. By using this approach, practitioners will be able to use their professionalism and expert knowledge to create and design lessons that stretch our learners—stretch their learning, stretch their abilities and, crucially, stretch their horizons.

The White Paper proposes that the new curriculum be organised as a continuum of learning from the ages of three to 16. The emphasis is on seamless transition, with references to key stages removed. Instead, progression will be signalled through progression steps at five points in the learning continuum, relating broadly to expectations at the ages of five, eight, 11, 14 and 16. They will act as a road map for each learner's development, allowing for individual abilities, experiences and rates of learning and understanding. I intend to legislate to define these steps.

As a proud bilingual country, English and Welsh will of course remain statutory, as will religious studies and relationships and sexuality education. Alongside this, the cross-curriculum responsibilities of literacy, numeracy and digital competency will be statutory up until the age of 16.

Presiding Officer, this is an exciting time for education in Wales. Not only are we developing a curriculum that ensures our learners are equipped to meet the needs of the future, we are also developing a curriculum through genuine collaboration with our schools and key stakeholders. We need to ensure that our legislation, as set out in the White Paper, enables us to realise and not to stifle our ambitions.

I'm asking for Members in the Chamber today, and for people across Wales, to contribute over the coming weeks and months. The White Paper is ambitious and far reaching, but we will only reach those high standards through a genuine national mission and conversation. The content and detail of the new curriculum will of course be published in draft in April of this year. Today is about laying the foundations, consulting on the legislation that paves the way for the new curriculum, its principles, its freedoms, and the structures that will support it. Thank you.

Can I thank you, Minister? You're quite right, this is going to be a sea change for Wales, but there's always a risk with a sea change that people might end up drowning. And while, of course, you have the full general principle policy support of everybody in this Chamber, I hope, the big test of all this is going to be what is deliverable practically, and will it deliver the results that we want to see. 

We're actually talking about a piece of legislation here, so I'm going to mention that very much in this context. I was pleased to see that the overarching principles—and have been for a while—are clearer than what we have in existing legislation at the moment. You want to move away from a prescriptive system. I believe you when you say that, and we as Welsh Conservatives of course have always said that we want teachers to be free to teach and that we shouldn't have over-prescription here, but, of course, that comes then with a greater responsibility on visible accountability. The quality of teachers and teaching, which I think is probably the greatest factor—I probably won't talk too much about that today, though—and an improvement of standards in attainment, in achievement, that young people themselves believe to be valuable, as well as what Wales as a society believes will be valuable for us as a nation, and particularly for our economy.

So, we're talking now about what will be effective to deliver this in a way that helps us raise rounded citizens who can achieve for themselves and their country, which is why I wanted to ask, really, why the word 'responsibility' has only appeared once in what our young people will achieve through the six areas of learning, because I think it's great to see words like 'confidence' and 'resilience', and the ability to be participants, I think, or to participate in decisions, but if our education is not helping people to move on from just respecting the needs of other people, which is a stated aim, to actually thinking they might have a responsibility in helping people meet those needs, then I think we might struggle with truly co-productive policy making in future. Actually, I think that's where we need a sea change, a game changer, if you like, in public policy in the future—amongst other changes.

Now, I'm sure that you'll say that my point is covered by the AoLEs, and it would be great if you could actually pinpoint how you actually think that will be the case, but what's not clear to me either at the moment is how these good citizen parts of the curriculum, if you like, will be weighted against the examinable areas of work. Because I welcome absolutely this need to reduce gaming that can go on in the current system, but I think we also need to keep an eye as well on avoiding new areas of gaming where decision makers can either swing in favour of exam results or avoid difficult questions about exam results by focusing on the non-examinable activity. Because when we talk about teacher freedom—and, as I say, I agree with you on this—it's just trying to establish quite how free they will be. Will they be free enough to actually avoid the stated policy objectives of what you're trying to do here? So, perhaps we can discuss that a little bit.

I mentioned the issue of what young people themselves think is valuable, and I'd be grateful if you could just give some indication as to how children and young people themselves have been involved so far. The White Paper talks about the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development observation that Welsh Government and the education sector have been working closely together, but it would be quite helpful to get an idea about how those who will be receiving this new-look education feel about it.

I'm sure this comes as a huge shock to you, Minister, but I do want to talk about cardiopulmonary resuscitation and first-aid skills—their place in the curriculum. I know you've heard all the evidence—evidence that has persuaded other Governments, not just the UK, that this is so worth while that they actually haven't left it to teacher discretion. The health and well-being AoLE speaks to individuals looking after themselves, but not really very much about looking after other people, which goes back to my initial point about mutual responsibility. So, I'd be quite curious to know why, at the moment, it looks like Welsh children might be disadvantaged compared to their peers in other parts of the world, actually, regarding a skill that they will now be taking for granted.

I'm conscious of leaving some questions for others, but I have got some more. Oh, yes—accountability. Now, I accept that how accountability is going to be measured from now on is still very much something that will be discussed with this Assembly, but what I'd like some steer on today, because we are talking about legislation, is what action you would take and refer to in legislation if this poor link in Wales, as it was described by the OECD, between accountability and improvement is not replaced, and pretty swiftly, by a link that works, particularly as the White Paper says that some of the existing accountability measures will be retained?

Just briefly on Welsh language and the wording to teach Welsh in various places in the White Paper—I think we need to explore that on another day. We haven't got much time today. I particularly wanted to ask, though, about the introduction of teaching English in Welsh-medium settings for very young children, and I can understand perhaps on grounds of fairness, when we're introducing so much Welsh now into English-medium settings, that this could be an attempt to not treat one language more favourably than the other. But I think these are not like-for-like situations, and I think it would help if you could bring us some evidence that suggests that those very young children learning through the medium of Welsh, through a continuum or otherwise, are in some way disadvantaged in a way that introducing English into their lives at that stage would overcome. As I say, these are not like-for-like situations and I don't think you can treat them in quite the same way. Tangentially, I'm just wondering what consideration was given to bringing modern foreign languages into the AoLEs much more visibly before key stage 3. I know it's not the same as Welsh language, but I am really worried about the future of modern foreign languages, even under this curriculum.

And then, finally—as I say, I'll leave teachers' training for another day. I'm pleased to see that you'll be putting some duties for Welsh Government on the face of the Bill. I wonder if I could ask you to consider a duty rather than a power to introduce statutory guidance assisting local government, governors and school leaders about how they can evidence fulfilling those duties around the four purposes. Because I know you will say, 'Well, of course, the Welsh Government will do this, and it's actually mentioned in the White Paper', but by committing through a duty to introduce guidance—and I'm not suggesting what should be in that guidance—I think that gives some comfort to those who are looking for certainty from this legislation. I think I need to give you fair warning that we'll be looking at making those duties in amendments at some point to introduce and review statutory guidance, to have some powers to vary that guidance after scrutiny from the Welsh Parliament, and also, as I mentioned earlier, to see what powers you would be looking for in order to take action in the event of duties by others not being met.

So, you're already aware of expressions of uncertainty about the delivery of the policy—we've discussed it in committee and a little bit in the Chamber. So, you have work to do on that, and, actually, as a legislature, we want to help you meet some of those concerns. I think it'll help both of us—meaning us as a Parliament and you as a Government—if your Bill looks to create certainty for those who will be responsible for implementing the Bill in due course and just doesn't join the list of Swiss cheeses that have been rolling out from Welsh Government lately. Thank you very much.

Can I thank Suzy Davies for that long list of questions? I will try and cover them as best I can and as quickly as I can. I'm glad that the Member recognises that there is greater clarity around the purposes of the curriculum. Of course, this was a finding by Graham Donaldson in his 'Successful Futures' report, which said that we needed to have that clarity, and I believe that we have achieved that.

Understandably, as always in these discussions, the focus tends to go onto qualifications and actually what happens at the end of this process. Obviously, the qualifications in Wales will need to be aligned to the new curriculum. One of the things that we have been very careful to do during this entire process is to engage Qualifications Wales so that there is early sight from our qualifications body about what they will need to do to make sure that that alignment is real. That's also one of the reasons why I took the decision to delay the roll-out of the curriculum.

Originally, it had been conceived that there would be a big-bang approach and the entire system would move to the new curriculum overnight. Clearly, that, potentially, was particularly full of jeopardy for those students who were reaching the end of their compulsory education, working towards those high-stakes examinations. And that's why we've made the decision to roll it out. So, of course, qualifications related to this new curriculum will actually not be sat until 2026. It does seem like a long way away, but we're already in the planning process for what this new curriculum change will mean for qualifications.

I am anticipating, Presiding Officer, that Suzy Davies and I will have long debates about duties and statutory guidance. Of course, as the legislation is actually drafted and comes forward, I look forward to engaging in those. We have been quite clear about the duties that will be on the face of the Bill—duties to the Welsh Government and duties to schools and individual headteachers and governing bodies, and what will be required of them. But I'm keen to consider views that will come forward during the consultation paper here, first of all, and then when we move forward to the legislation. I will enter those discussions with an open mind.

The Member asked what role children have had in the process to date. Let me give you a very clear example: you will be aware from my statement, and previous statements that I've made, that we will be placing relationship and sexuality education on the face of the Bill. That is in response to the recommendation by the specialist group that reported and the weight of evidence that young people themselves gave to that process about how important this was. Actually, this is an example of the departure away from 'Successful Futures'—this is a new addition—but we're doing it because the weight of evidence from young people themselves who fed into that process said that they wanted to see this change and we've listened to that. And that's just one example.

Clearly, there have been other examples where young people have been engaged, but, crucially, we will be doing a specific body of work when the AoLEs are published at Easter, when there is something tangible to go out and discuss with children and young people. Of course, it's tempting at this stage to want to talk about what goes into the legislation and actually what is appropriate for the individual AoLEs. Suzy Davies will have to wait just a little bit longer until those AoLEs are published at Easter. That will, hopefully, give some insight into some of the other questions that she has raised. At that same time, we will publish further information about assessment and evaluation to go alongside the content of the AoLEs. The White Paper does set out some duties regarding assessment and how assessment for learning will take place under this process. And we always have to make the distinction between assessment and evaluation—they are two different things, designed for two different purposes in our education system, and further details will be published on the evaluation and the accountability measures later on in the spring. 

Can I come to the issue of language? Clearly, there is nothing in these proposals that will undermine the issue, which I think the Member was referring to, with regard to immersion, especially for our youngest children in Welsh-medium. I'm sure the Member, who I believe is a supporter of the foundation phase, will be aware of the current guidance that is available to foundation phase practitioners. It says that children

'should be helped to develop an awareness of Wales as a country with two languages'

and

'Language skills learned in one language should support the development of knowledge and skills in another language.'

That's already in our foundation phase guidance, which all foundation phase settings are expected to deliver upon. There is nothing in this paper that I believe will undermine that.

My commitment to the language as an important part of our education system is a personal one, through the choices that I have made—positive choices I've made for my own children. I've got three towards the Government's target for 2050 who will be bilingual because of the opportunities of Welsh-medium education. It's a professional commitment and it is a policy commitment.

I am very proud that we are reforming the education system so that every child—every single child—is going to have a more equal chance to be a bilingual citizen of this nation and to learn even more languages at an early age. Because, like you, I share your concerns about MFL. I'm sorry if we haven't made it clear in the statement. Of course, key stage 3 will go; there will be no key stages in the new process. Actually, what we're hoping to do is to bring other languages earlier into a child's educational journey, whilst they are in primary school. That means modern foreign languages, that means ancient civilisation languages—the previous Minister, I know, had a particular passion for Latin. We are also looking at community languages—so, those are languages that are spoken in different parts of our community—and also British Sign Language. Schools will have the opportunity, and indeed they will be required to be able to bring those experiences into the primary sector. Because I think leaving it to secondary school to expose children to other communication, other languages, is too late and has led to some of the problems that we've seen in terms of take-up. 

I think that just about covers the points that the Member has raised but I'm grateful for the spirit of co-operation and the willingness to engage in this process. As I said, it's a national mission and we are a National Assembly, and I'm sure all Members will want to contribute. 

I would like to pursue three important aspects today: workforce training, assessment arrangements, and the impact of these changes on qualifications. These don't directly relate to the White Paper, of course, but they are part of the bigger picture in terms of the huge change that’s occurring. And the new curriculum will mean a transformational change to teaching methods, so what are the Government’s proposals for re-educating the workforce? I'm using the word 're-educating' or 'retraining' in order to convey the level of the task and the change, and I think that does so more effectively than the term 'professional development'.

Schools are calling out for concrete information about when this will happen—that is to say, when this major retraining will occur. Will it happen during school hours, outwith school hours, on additional inset days? How will it be done? We do need an idea about the financial investment that will be allocated to this—more detail, if you like. You've allocated £100,000, I think, for ongoing development or continuous development, but is this sufficient? Releasing teachers is expensive. It all needs to be planned very carefully beforehand, and we need to recognise the scale of the task facing us, and we need to emphasise that this includes classroom teachers, classroom assistants, and the school leaders. I am aware that CPD won't be part of the White Paper, but I do think that the questions raised by teachers and unions are very pertinent indeed.

My second question is on assessment arrangements, and you have mentioned that you will publish further detail on that in the spring. At the moment, before we have that information, teachers are concerned that they don't have a clear idea of the nature of the assessment methods that will run alongside the curriculum. We know about the annual adaptive tests, and we know about significant changes in terms of the broader accountability issues, but, in terms of the progress steps and the attainment outcomes, it would be good to have more clarity on all of this, and I assume that the intention is to move away from teacher assessment as it currently stands at the moment.

Now, another huge question, which nobody seems to be able to tackle at the moment, is: what will the impact of the changes to the curriculum be on qualifications, as Suzy alluded to? You did start to answer the question, but we do need clarity very soon on this issue. You said that 2026 is a long way off, but no, it isn’t, because the first cohort of pupils that will have followed the new curriculum—those in year 7 in September 2022—will reach year 10 and they will start GCSE courses in September 2025. Working back from that point, the schedules for those courses will have to have been published by 2024 so that teachers have time for preparation. There is huge work to be done, first of all, by Qualifications Wales, in terms of setting the criteria, and then by the WJEC, and any other awarding bodies who may be interested in qualifications, in terms of drawing up those qualifications and going through Qualification Wales's validation processes. Now, I know that, quite understandably, you’ve sought to avoid having the nature of the qualifications having too much of an influence on the curriculum, but the time has now come to actually make some robust decisions in this area.

Turning now to an issue that is a cause for concern for me, namely the Welsh aspects of this curriculum, and the Welsh identity of the curriculum, I would like to know how much emphasis there will be on Welsh history, for example. You talk about a Welsh dimension, but I am talking about a curriculum that is rooted in the Welsh experience, and I do think that there is a difference there, and I would like some clarity on that issue. There are questions that arise about the framework for the Welsh language, and what the assessment arrangements will be there, and there is a major question, which isn’t being answered at the moment, about what the nature of the qualification or qualifications will be in terms of the Welsh language. There is a lack of clarity about that, and that is a cause for concern; there is a vacuum there, and I would appreciate a little more meat on the bones, as it were.

Finally, I turn to an issue that Suzy started to address, which is on page 35 of the consultation document, and here it says that there will be

‘Duty on all schools and Funded Nursery Settings to teach English as a compulsory element of the new curriculum for Wales.’

Now, that strikes me as being very strange, in these days where the cylchoedd meithrin run by Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin do provide their provision through the medium of Welsh. And every expert opinion in this area has emphasised that the immersion of children in the Welsh language, at that very early age, is the best way of producing children who are fluent Welsh speakers. And a statement such as that one does raise a number of questions, I believe, and it has frightened Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin without doubt, and it appears to me to run contrary to the aim of a million Welsh speakers. So, I would like to know whether that is an error if truth be told, It’s such a strange and unexpected statement in the current context in Wales. It strikes me that it may be a mistake.

So—

Allow the Minister to respond to some of the questions then. I think that you have asked plenty of questions there. 

There are a number of questions that need to be asked, certainly.

To be asked and answered. The Minister, Kirsty Williams. 

Thank you very much to the Member for the questions. She is quite right, of course, that the professional learning requirements to implement the curriculum are not a matter for the White Paper, but just to reassure the Member that no education system can exceed the quality of those people who stand in front of our children day in and day out, and, therefore, having a professional workforce that is in a position to make good on the vision of the curriculum is absolutely crucial. That's why we have undergone a reformed initial teacher education process. It hasn't been without its pain, and we are confident that the new ITE provision centres that have been selected through that rigorous process will be in a position to ensure that those newly going into the profession will have the skills needed. 

We are currently working on groundbreaking alternative routes to qualification for teaching, which will put us at the vanguard of teacher education, and I hope to make statements on that shortly. But, clearly, we also have to attend to the needs of those who are already in the workforce, who, hopefully, will continue to be in the workforce for many years to come. I have previously announced to this Chamber the largest ever financial package of professional learning support in the history of devolution. Some significant resources are going in now and in the new financial year. Those resources will be made available directly to schools, where headteachers who are best placed to understand the professional learning needs of their colleagues in their school will be able to make individual plans for the use of those resources. 

I'm looking for a new approach, a new, innovative approach to professional learning. Gone are the days, I think, where we rely on sending people, usually to Cardiff, to spend the day listening to the sage on the stage, only then to go back and have little idea of how that could be properly implemented in individual classrooms. We need to be smarter than that. 

The Member does raise the important issue—and I know in having spoken to headteacher conferences before Christmas, that the issue of inset day, an extra inset day, is one that is high on people's agenda. Those Members who are au fait with the subordinate legislation processes will know that, actually, I do not have the power to simply announce an extra inset day. I am actively considering whether that should be made available, but it will have to go out to public consultation and will be subject to processes here within the Assembly itself. But I hope to make an announcement shortly about whether that process will be undertaken. But I understand that teachers will need the opportunity to prepare themselves for this new challenge, as will our school leaders, which is why I have been quite clear to our National Academy of Educational Leadership that, in commissioning programmes to support existing and aspiring headteachers, their ability to be able to support curriculum reform in their own schools should be an important part of that.

I wasn't being flippant when I said 2026 was a long way away. What I was actually trying to say—obviously not clearly enough—was that that will be here with us before we know it. And that's why it's been absolutely crucial to me that we have had Qualifications Wales engaged from the very start of the process. Work is already under way on understanding the consequences for qualifications as a result of these curriculum changes. And if the Member would like further details, I'm happy to facilitate a meeting between herself and Qualifications Wales, so she can hear, in more time than I'm able to give here this afternoon, and talk about the nature of that work, remembering, of course, that qualifications is now arm's length from Ministers.

That brings me on to the issue of assessment. The detail and emphasis of our assessment arrangements will need to change, to best support the new curriculum. The central focus of assessment in the future will be to ensure that all children and young people understand how they are performing, and, crucially, what they need to do next to make progress and move on. So there will be greater emphasis on formative assessment, to inform next steps for both teaching and learning. To strengthen the relationship between the curriculum and assessment, and to give a focus on each child's progress, there will no longer be levels. Instead, assessment will be based on the achievement outcomes, which will be published alongside the contents of the AoLEs. And they will expressly set out what achievement looks like in each of those six areas of learning and experience. And what I do propose—and is included in the White Paper—is that headteachers will have a duty to set achievement outcomes to support all children and young people at their school, to progress along the continuum of learning. And to ensure that there will be consistency between schools, we propose that they have to have regard to the achievement outcomes, which, as I said, will be published later on this year.

So, there will be a continued focus on teacher assessment, and assessment for learning, alongside our other assessment regimes, such as the online adaptive testing. With regard to evaluation, which, as I said earlier, is different—and that is how we hold the system to account, both individual schools and the system as a whole—details of that will be published later on.

With regard to the Welsh language, I was very grateful to receive the support of Cymdeithas yr Iaith yesterday, who have welcomed very much what we're doing with regard to the continuum of Welsh language learning. And we will be getting away from this distinction between what is classed as a 'first language', and what is a 'second language'. That is long overdue in our system, and I am very glad that we have got to the position of establishing a continuum. That continuum will also exist, of course, for the English language, and we would expect children to move along either continuum, at a rate and in a way that is commensurate with the nature of the language of tuition in their school. So, understandably, we would expect a child who is in Welsh-medium education, where the language of tuition is Welsh medium—that child would probably progress along the progression steps more quickly. But our intention is to continually review the progression steps so we can add added rigour into the system as the years go on.

I will be absolutely clear, as I was to Suzy Davies: it is already a requirement in the foundation phase that children have to develop an awareness of both of our languages, and language skills learned in one language support the development and knowledge and skills in another language. There is nothing in here that will undermine the issue of immersion. And actually—certainly in the 'cylch-s' I know best, in areas of Wales where we need more people to make a positive choice, to choose cylch, and to chose Welsh medium for their children—those 'cylch-s' work in a bilingual way, especially for children such as my own, who came from a family with no Welsh at all, to be able to settle in, and to be able to enjoy their time there, and to develop their Welsh language skills. And there is nothing in these proposals that would undermine that.

In fact, I would even go as far as to say that it's just not credible to say any proposal in this paper will damage our ambition for a million Welsh speakers, and what I should also say is that you should see my ministerial inbox. I try to stick to my principles on ensuring that the quality of Welsh learning is as good as it could be. But that results in some pretty horrible e-mails into my inbox, and it shows me we still have a long way to go—a long way to go—to win the argument about why having bilingual children is the best possible gift that we can give our children and young people.

And we have to be very careful about some of the language we ourselves use when discussing these issues, because I've been surprised in my inbox on a regular basis that we have parents who write to me who don't believe that their children should be taught Welsh at all—at all—in our system. As we're introducing a system that—. As I said, I want to ensure that all of our children have an equal chance to be bilingual speakers—. Then, we need to move forward carefully, and ensure that we don't scaremonger or feel that the issue of the language is being undermined one way or the other. 

Thank you for your statement, Minister. Your statement paints a very grand description of a very grand plan for a new curriculum, and I can't say that I disagree with the objectives of that curriculum. But, as you know, the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, along with the Welsh Local Government Association, have said that pupils' learning could be left to chance, because the plans are so vague. You have said, with no teaching experience at all—. You've had the audacity to say they don't understand the proposals or that they're working on out-of-date information. Well, if they don't understand the new curriculum or they're working on out-of-date information, the fault lies with the process that has been put in place for explaining that new curriculum and providing information on it. If essential people are out of date or don't understand the curriculum, then it's the Minister's responsibility to rectify it. So, I'd ask what the Minister's plans are to do that.

I'd suggest that the real problem here is that the WLGA and the association of directors of education do understand the new curriculum, but they seem concerned about whether that curriculum is clear enough to enable teachers to deliver it, and do so consistently across Wales. They've said that in the area of language and literacy learning 

'There are many high-level & grandiose themes at the expense of the nuts & bolts of language development – speaking, reading & writing'

and that science and technology appear to be the 'least developed' area. This should be of concern to everybody. It would also appear that the 'nuts and bolts'—as they put it—of education are taking the second place to ambition for grandiose themes. 

My question is whether the Minister will take these criticisms on board or simply continue to deny that there may be a problem. I understand that the Minister wants more autonomy for teachers and schools, but does that not clash with the decision to force schools to adopt her vision of personalised assessments and sex and relationship education? So, Minister, how much more genuine autonomy do you want schools to have? And what areas would you not be happy to see them have more autonomy in? 

Qualifications are only as valuable as their reputation. The new curriculum will have to aim for a qualification at the end of it. But those qualifications are only as valuable as their reputation, as I've just said. And in recent years, we've seen employers lose a certain amount of faith in some university degrees, and some universities questioning the value of some exams taken at school. So, to what extent have you tested how the new curriculum is being received and regarded by universities and employers inside and outside Wales?

Young people today are having to establish themselves in a job market that's far more globalised than anyone here has had to cope with. So, to what extent have you looked at the curriculums of countries such as India and China that are producing more and more young people with exceptional skills? It's all very well looking at other European countries, but it's the developing countries that are increasingly dominating the global jobs market. [Laughter.] You can laugh as much as you like, but it's the truth. So, I wonder if you agree with me that we should be looking at how our youngsters can cope with the competition from there, rather than countries that are already having difficulty competing globally. 

And on the employability subject, although we clearly do need to develop that side of things, the Minister ought not to lose site of the fact that Wales still needs an education system that encourages young people to become innovators, pioneers, experimenters and groundbreakers. So, whilst I agree that numeracy, literacy and digital skills are all important areas, because they equip people with the skills they need to cope with day-to-day living and employment, can you tell me, if anything, what you've done to make sure our future curriculum won't be just about training people to have employability skills, but also give them the encouragement and skills needed to become the out-of-the-box thinkers and entrepreneurs of tomorrow? What leadership have you given on that particular matter, Minister? 

And lastly, the introduction of a new curriculum gives the Minister ample opportunity in future years to say that poor performance could be just down to schools getting to grips with the curriculum rather than the curriculum itself being flawed. So, what measures will the Minister put in place so that we will be able to measure its successes and failures, and the reasons from them, from its start, rather than years later, when the Minister is no longer in place to be held accountable for her management of the creation of the new curriculum? Thank you.

The Member began by asking about how do I respond to issues raised by the WLGA and ADEW. Well, of course, we rehearsed these at length at the recent meeting of the Children, Young People and Education committee, and my views haven't changed. Indeed, they've only been reinforced. The following Monday, I was at an event where I sat next to two of our directors of local education authorities and both denied that they had any sight of that paper and were unaware as to whom had written it. But, clearly, I do take on board that if there is a lack of clarity from the association of directors or the WLGA, then we must redouble our efforts to work alongside them, and I hope that is happening today. There is a change board being chaired by the Welsh Government's director of education and I hope both ADEW and the WLGA are in attendance as the change board finally signs off on all the AoLEs. 

The Member asks whether I have considered globalisation. Globalisation is one of the driving factors about why we need to reform the curriculum. This is one of the reasons why we are having to do what we are doing, to ensure that we have equipped our children to be those competitors in a global world. The Member asks about whether issues around creativity and critical thinking are part of this process. I would refer the Member to the four purposes, the duty of which the Welsh Government and our schools will have at the forefront of our minds when developing individual curricula. 

Now, the Member does make a very important point about the ability of Welsh qualifications to be a passport to opportunities anywhere in the world and I am absolutely confident that by working alongside Qualifications Wales, who have the legal responsibility to create and to police those qualifications, we'll in no way be disadvantaging Welsh children and young people. Their ability to use these qualifications as a passport, as I said, to universities, work experiences, employment opportunities anywhere on the globe—they will not be stopped because of these qualifications. There may lots of other reasons why they can't go to places to work and study, but it won't be as a result of these curriculum reforms.

No change is not an option—the jobs haven't been invented yet for our primary school children to do, so we absolutely have to change the curriculum. It's pointless learning facts by rote when everybody can look up facts on their mobile phone. So, I completely support the philosophy and the approach of the Government on this matter. I just wanted to confine my remarks to a few questions. First of all, the statutory roll-out in September 2022 is really not very far off. So, I wonder how we are minimising anxiety for staff facing change, which always causes—. I'm not interested in the Welsh Local Government Association and the directors of education; I'm interested in the grass roots. Because we have to be aware that, in England, there is a serious problem of staff retention in schools and because the job is just so all-encompassing if you're a full-time teacher. So, will the more creative curriculum for pupils also offer more creative and flexible career paths for teachers? That is one question.

My second question relates to the rather depressing document, 'Language Trends Wales 2018', which I think hit our desks last week. Relatively few schools—. This is about the massive reduction in the learning of modern foreign languages and the impact of Brexit, which this report touches on. More than a third of schools report that the Brexit process is having a negative effect on attitudes towards the study of modern foreign languages. Of course we should celebrate our bilingualism in Wales, but we can't just be learners of Welsh and English; we have to be learners of other foreign languages so that we are going to continue to be able to deal with the global environment. So, whilst we are embedding the new curriculum—and I wish you well with all of that—how are we going to stop the drain in modern foreign languages, because I haven't yet been able to find anything on that in the White Paper?

Can I thank the Member for the questions? Sometimes, in debates about the future of education policy, there is an artificial and a false choice, I think, made between having a curriculum that focuses on skills and having a curriculum that focuses on knowledge. Now, despite the fact that we can all Google when the battle of Hastings was or what happened on a certain date, that does not replace the fact that, actually, we still need some knowledge in our curriculum. We can't get away from that. This is not an 'either/or'. This is a curriculum that will have both in it.

The Member is absolutely right that teaching is a challenging, challenging profession, and there are two things that we need to do. First of all—and there is a work stream in Welsh Government to do this—regardless of the new curriculum, we have to look at workload issues for teachers in the current curriculum as well as the future curriculum. Simply offering people extra money if they stay in the profession isn't going to cut it. I have never met a teacher who entered a classroom because they thought it was going to make them rich. They do so because they are motivated by either a love of their subject and the desire to impart knowledge about that subject to other people or because they see the intrinsic value of contributing to their society, to their community, to their country by taking on this most important of jobs, and we need to make that a manageable job for them to do.

So, it's not about chucking money at them, like we have seen this week. It is actually about understanding and tackling those workload issues. But I do believe that the curriculum changes that we're working on here will make Wales an attractive place to be a teacher, because we will acknowledge their skills, their creativity and their ability to shape lessons to truly fit the children in front of them and not simply to have to work from a tick list that a politician somewhere said they had to teach. We also do know from looking at international studies by the OECD that one of the ways in which you can remove stress from those working in the profession is to up the levels of autonomy. Those practitioners who have higher levels of autonomy in systems, such as in Finland where there is high autonomy for individual teachers—that's where you have higher levels of satisfaction with the profession and you have better retention rates and fewer people moving away. And this is part of the process that we're in—giving greater autonomy and flexibility for teachers in their individual classrooms.

Now, with regard to MFL, I don't think that there is a dissenting voice—well, I don't know what UKIP think—but there is not a dissenting voice, I feel, on behalf of the Conservative Party or Plaid Cymru or on these benches here about the importance of MFL. We all share that. Of course, the issue is that, if you're a bilingual person, once you've learnt two languages, the third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh actually are easier to learn. So, actually, as a system as a whole, having a bilingual system, we put our children in a better cognitive place to actually acquire other languages. But you are absolutely right: we do see a continuing challenge in persuading young people to take those languages on when they become optional subjects—usually, in most schools, at the age of 14. I've seen that in my own family; I've seen that challenge in my own family. What we're doing here, in our new curriculum, is actually bringing exposure to other languages—community languages here in Cardiff, recognition for those children who speak different languages at home, recognising community languages, modern foreign languages, the classical languages and British Sign Language—and the expectation in the new curriculum is that it will be brought down into what we would call the primary ages. And, actually, that early exposure rather than leaving it to 11, which is where most children, not all children—. Because we have some fantastic primary schools who are doing wonderful work with French, Spanish, German, Chinese. By bringing that down so that all children in the primary age have exposure to that language, I hope that will make a real difference in changing attitudes towards, and passion for, and an understanding that acquiring multiple languages is actually a personally growing thing to do, but, actually, has huge economic opportunities arise out of it if you are able to do that.

Can I thank the Minister very much for her statement? I welcome lots of the comments and, obviously, the tenure of the contributions this afternoon. Obviously, concentrating on the historical connotations in the first place, it was the Rev Griffith Jones of Llanddowror in Carmarthenshire who established circulating Sunday schools in the eighteenth century as a template for all modern schools. And such was the success of those circulating schools, it made Wales one of the most literate of European countries of all, at that time, in the mid-eighteenth century, such that Catherine the Great, the Empress of Russia, sent an envoy here to little old Wales to discover how those schools operated. You might not find that on your Google search, which is why we do need to teach Welsh history in our Welsh schools. So, I would make that plea, but, obviously, I've made that before.

In terms of time, I'm just going to concentrate on one point in your White Paper, and it is a point already alluded to by Suzy and by Siân Gwenllian. It's with regard to the duty on all schools—I see under section 3.79 here, bullet point 4:

'Duty on all schools and Funded Nursery Settings to teach English as a compulsory element of the new curriculum for Wales.'

I can understand where that comes from from an equality point of view, but it actually does not happen at the moment. I think it would be a backward step if our Welsh-medium nurseries, playgroups and early years in schools actually started introducing English now because this is about immersion of language. It is an unequal situation at the moment. I speak as a chair of governors of a Welsh-medium primary school in Swansea, where 92 per cent of the children come from a non-Welsh-speaking background. They depend for their Welsh learning on the school. So, only 8 per cent of them have some Welsh at home, and, in fact, only half of those have one parent. So, in other words, 4 per cent have one parent speaking Welsh. So, 92 per cent have a totally non-Welsh background. It is an unequal situation then, because it's about early language learning and immersion in that language.

The school that I'm now the chair of governors—previously, over 20 years ago, it was a bilingual school. It wasn't a Welsh-medium school, it was bilingual—English and Welsh. What we discovered was that some of the children did not always end up fluent in Welsh by the age of 11. Now they do. They start off, everything is in Welsh, English is introduced at seven—by 11, everybody is bilingual, coming from the 92 per cent non-Welsh-speaking background or not. And, obviously, it is easier to learn another language like French, Spanish and German, especially introduced at primary level. So, I would implore you—all international experience about learning language in a minority situation that we are in now, it is not equal, and we have to redress that inequality by making sure it's Welsh-only up until the age of seven, and then you also introduce other languages after that, because they have the overwhelming English influence at home, all around them, on television. They depend on the school for that Welsh. Look again, please, Minister, at section 3.79. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Dai. The experience that you've just described in the school of which you are a chairman is the experience I have in my own family. My children are bilingual children. I took the time to ask my 14-year-old last night whether she had any regrets, because, for a parent to make that choice, it's sometimes not an easy choice. It has not been without its pitfalls when I have sat alongside them and, gosh, their Welsh far exceeded mine very, very, very quickly. It's sometimes not a comfortable place to be and it's not without its pitfalls. But I asked her last night whether she had any regrets and she said, 'I am proud. I am really proud that I can speak two languages' and, as she reminded me, 'That's something that you can't do', and, when they want to gang up on me and when they want me to not understand what they are saying about me—well, you can imagine how they address one another. Let me be absolutely clear here. I in no way want to undermine the principle of immersion, which is an important way in which we can assure that children can be bilingual children.

Can I just make the point about a Welsh dimension to this curriculum? Can I just say that a Welsh dimension has to be more than just Welsh history, Dai? There seems to be a debate where we always talk about the Welsh dimension only in the confines of Welsh history lessons. I don't want children just to learn about Welsh history—which, of course, I want them to do—I want them to understand about Wales's contribution to the wider world, I want them to understand about Welsh writers, actors, musicians, those people that have excelled in the expressive arts; the fact that it is a Welshman in Geneva who is running the hadron collider. So, I don't want the Welsh dimension simply to be the preserve of Welsh history lessons. I want the Welsh dimension of our curriculum to stretch right across every single area of experience and learning, because there is no area of learning and experience where Wales hasn't got a proud story to tell about its contribution to all those very, very important aspects. And we cannot confine it just to learning about our history.

Thank you. I have two more speakers and, as you can see, we are going over, but I will call those two speakers, but I would ask them to be brief and just to cover additional points that may not have already been raised. Dawn Bowden.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I will cut my preamble to the question. I briefly wanted, therefore, Minister, if I could, to focus on one of the four purposes that are set out in the proposed structural changes to the curriculum—that of ensuring that our children are ethical, informed citizens and, particularly, that they're knowledgeable about their culture, community and society in the world now and in the past. The objectives of this purpose are clearly laudable, but I'd like to follow on, I think, from the point that Paul Davies made earlier in his contribution, when he was asking the First Minister questions, regarding the lack of knowledge, or even denial, actually, about the Holocaust.

Having just spent the last week reflecting on the Holocaust and genocide and how the conditions for that can be created through ignorance and prejudice, and knowing, as we all do, that populism and intolerance is on the rise, I'd be interested to know what specifically we're likely to see in the new curriculum that will ensure that we do see more tolerant, inclusive and respectful individuals coming out of school, who have a greater understanding of the impact of their words and their actions. I'm sure you'll probably say that this is probably more appropriate for discussion or question once we're talking about the draft curriculum, but I'd still welcome your thoughts at this stage in terms of what specifically we can do within the curriculum to make sure that our children do come out of school with that much more rounded view and values and approach towards their place in society.

Can I thank Dawn Bowden for that question? When designing the curriculum and the individual content of AoLEs in schools, schools will be placed on a duty to be able to judge that content against whether that achieves those purposes. So, the fact that that purpose is there at the very centre of our curriculum—and the expectations of what kind of people we expect to leave our compulsory education system I believe are quite clear. 

I know that, over the weekend, the Member has been deeply involved with issues around remembrance of the Holocaust and I was very pleased last week to use my official communications channel to promote and highlight the fantastic resources that the Holocaust Education Trust have and to promote the use of those resources in Welsh schools. Can I give you a very practical example of how this is already happening with regards to our DCF, our digital competence framework? Sometimes people think, when we talk about the DCF, we only talk about how you use a computer, but it goes way beyond that. One of the things that we're working on on the DCF is the ability to spot fake news: to be able to go online, see a piece of information and to be able to ask yourselves those critical questions about whether this is true or false or how you can go and find out other information so you can corroborate what you've just read. And that ability to interrogate information that is made available on social media networks I think is now more important than it has ever been and that's, for instance, a crucial point of what we're currently working on with the digital competence framework, and, of course, that will be a statutory part of the curriculum going forward.

Finally, Rhianon Passmore.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. Thank you, Minister. There is, indeed, great potential and opportunity within this new curriculum, and, I believe, great prizes: I do welcome very much the strategic intention around early and pre-linguistic development across Wales. We need that linguistic development. We can be a bilingual nation to a greater extent, but we need to be a multilingual nation to take our true place in the world—and I won't talk about the areas of experience and learning about music and the arts today. Can you outline for me how you believe the role of the education improvement consortia will play out in delivery and potentially helping to implement the new curriculum in Wales?

Thank you, Rhianon, for that. Clearly, the middle tier, which includes our local education authorities, Estyn and the regional school improvement services, will have a critical role to play in ensuring that the curriculum is adopted and delivered to a very high standard. What I would like to do is to reassure schools that we will be using this period of time between the publication of the AoLEs, the passage of this legislation, and the statutory roll-out in 2022 to make sure that all aspects of our education system are up to speed and that any judgments that the school improvement service may or may not make as regards the effectiveness of the school—the personnel that they deploy to that school will be well-versed in the pedagogical principles and the ethos of this curriculum.

Thank you very much, Minister. 

Item 4 on the agenda this afternoon is a statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services, 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales—Our national ambitions to prevent and reduce obesity in Wales'. I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services to deliver the statement—Vaughan Gething.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm happy to update Members today on the launch of 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales'. I had the pleasure of launching a consultation with stakeholders on 17 January. This set out our national ambitions to prevent and reduce obesity across Wales. The consultation begins a period of engagement, challenge and reflection as we develop our priorities for action.

Obesity is one of the greatest public health challenges of our generation, and the Assembly, of course, agreed to make the production of this strategy a statutory requirement through the passage of our Public Health Act 2017. We know that the UK has one of the highest levels of obesity in Western Europe. The challenge of tackling obesity is one that faces countries across the world. So, we are no exception here in Wales. Twenty seven per cent of our four to five-year-olds and 60 per cent of our adults are either overweight or obese.

High rates of overweight or obese four and five-year-olds are a matter of national concern. This Government is not prepared to stand by and do nothing. That could let a poor diet or physical inactivity be defining features in the lives of our children and young people. We know that being overweight increases our risk of developing major health conditions such as coronary heart disease, type 2 diabetes and some cancers. We also know that this is a risk to our mental health that can lead to low self esteem, depression and anxiety.

The long-term sustainability of our NHS will require us to improve public and population health, encouraging people to manage their own health and wellbeing, to lose weight and to be active. Last year, I launched ‘A Healthier Wales’, the Welsh Government’s long-term plan for health and social care in Wales. The plan sets the scene for how all healthcare issues will be approached in Wales from now on. In that plan, I outlined a vision for the people of Wales to live longer, healthier and happier lives.  Being a healthy weight is a key component to achieving that vision. To develop the consultation, Public Health Wales has undertaken extensive research to develop a strong case for change, and that has been published in parallel. This has led to the development of four key themes.

Leadership and enabling is our first theme. We recognise that a coherent systems approach at both a national and a local level will be essential. Too often in the past, great plans have failed to deliver their intended outcomes because of a lack of understanding of how the policy will be implemented. I look forward to hearing from partners about how we can ensure that we deliver measures that are co-produced with communities and that are scalable, evidenced based and evaluated on an ongoing basis to drive the continuous improvement we know we need to see.

The healthy environment theme considers how we can provide greater opportunities in a person's everyday life to enable them to make healthier choices. We want to ensure that our lived environments, from our daily shop, eating choices, daily commutes or leisure time can be geared to support us to move more and to eat healthier. Our proposals here include bringing forward legislation for the first time to help tackle obesity—this includes on price promotions, calorie labelling on foods eaten out of the home, and banning the sale of energy drinks to children. I also want us to work proactively with industry to drive change through reformulation and to limit the advertising of unhealthy foods. Developing healthy weight environments through our planning and infrastructure could help us to create real opportunities to encourage healthier options on our high streets and to increase opportunities for daily physical activity.

Where we spend our time can often dictate the food and activity choices we make, and politicians will know that themselves. In the healthy settings theme, we consider how changes in our education, work and leisure could help us to maintain a healthy weight. We spend a large amount of our time in education, work or in public settings, all of which can play a key role to nudge us towards making unhealthy choices. In particular, we are proposing strengthened support for early years and schools settings to enable healthy eating and daily physical activity opportunities.

However, I am also clear that schools in particular cannot pick up the sole burden of tackling childhood obesity. They are an important part of the solution, however, through our third, healthy people theme of the consultation, we want to consider how we can motivate and support communities and individuals to attain and maintain a healthy body weight. That includes considering key points in our lives where we know additional support could be best placed. Crucially, we want to embed healthy eating and activity habits from the beginning, for example, helping women to manage their weight in pregnancy, through the first 1,000 days of their child's life, and providing the support that people need. We will work with health boards to ensure that we have a consistent clinical pathway in place as well.

There are strong links to levels of obesity within areas of higher deprivation and we want to consider how we close the health inequalities gap. Our proposals set out how we want to work with communities to increase support. In particular, we want to think about how interventions with children and families can be targeted and facilitated in a way that helps to achieve positive and sustainable lifestyle choices.

During the consultation, we will hold a number of consultation events across Wales, including discussions with members of the public in town centres, colleges and places of work. We're committed to publishing a final strategy in October of this year. I welcome your views today across the Chamber and I look forward to working proactively across the Chamber to ensure that we develop a set of proposals and actions that should put Wales at the forefront of efforts to prevent and then to reduce obesity.

Can I thank the Minister for his statement today and for giving us an advance copy of it? Obesity, as we know, is a major public health challenge in Wales, and you've referred to a number of important statistics today and the impact that obesity can have on people's health, including, very importantly, their mental health and well-being.

We know that, back in 2017, Minister, the Welsh obesity alliance made 18 recommendations on their views of how to tackle obesity and to address the assumption that, and I quote, 'being overweight has become normal in Wales'. That, of course, is something that you repeat in your consultation document. A number of issues have been incorporated into your strategy from the recommendations that the Welsh obesity alliance made, and I'm very pleased to see those referred to and I'm very pleased to see that the Government is consulting on taking action to address them.

One of the points that they have quite rightly raised is the need for increased regulation in the media around advertising of unhealthy food products, and I know that that is something that we as a National Assembly do not yet have devolved responsibility for. But I wonder whether you can tell us what discussions you've had with the health Secretary over the border in the UK Government regarding the opportunities that there may be to be able to work with them, so that we can actually get some UK-wide approach to resolving this issue of media advertising, because I know it's a matter of great concern to many people.

We, of course, all want people to eat healthier meals. We want people to reduce their reliance on ready meals, with very often high salt content and a high proportion of processed foods, and the obesity alliance have suggested that providing cooking lessons, not only in schools, but also to adults, to teach them how to maximise the benefits of self-prepared food, is one way to help shift people's behaviour. Obviously, this is quite a complicated problem, but I would be grateful if you could advise as to what sort of strategy the Government might have to reach those people who are already adults, but we haven't got them as a captive audience in our schools, so that we can equip them to make those lifestyle choices to prepare more food themselves in an affordable way, particularly in those areas where poverty can sometimes be a problem, and the affordability of food in shops and supermarkets is higher than some people can afford.

The 'State of Maternity Services Report' back in 2018, which was launched in November by the Royal College of Midwives, also highlighted the problems associated with obesity rates and pregnancy, and, again, I was pleased to hear reference to that in your statement today. I wonder what you can tell Members today is in place, as it were, or what proposals you're putting forward, to help to address the high rate of obesity. We know that there are many more caesareans in some parts of Wales in our hospitals than might be necessary, and some of that is linked to obesity. So, what action are you taking to address that problem, particularly in those areas where we've got a cluster of obesity problems in relation to pregnancy?

Another issue that was raised by the obesity alliance was that we need to publish data on obesity rates to ensure that there's transparency so that we can measure some progress and inform future policy decisions. I wonder whether you can tell us what the key performance indicators might be in order that we in this Chamber can hold the Government to account for making some progress on what is an extremely important issue.

Can I also ask that you'll look at the whole issue of social prescribing and whether it's proving to be effective? I know that many GPs these days are using social prescribing in terms of prescribing exercise or participation in local gyms. But I don’t think, frankly, that it's promoted as widely as it could be. We know that social prescribing can have a huge impact on people's mental health as well as helping them with their weight, and I'd be grateful to know what the prevalence of the use of social prescribing actually is in Wales, and whether you can give us any information on how we as Assembly Members can hold our own local health boards and GP services in our own areas to account for the delivery against that.

A couple of years ago, as well, there were two health boards in Wales that were flouting some of the Government advice that had been given to them in relation to banning sugary and fatty foods from being sold in vending machines, particularly on the hospital estate. There was data at that time that showed that Abertawe Bro Morgannwg's Morriston Hospital had 18 vending machines that were selling soft drinks, sweets, et cetera, and Singleton and the Princess of Wales hospitals, also operating in that health board area, had 16 soft drinks machines between them. Cwm Taf said that six of its hospitals also offered canned drinks, chocolates and sweets via 37 vending machines. You made reference in your statement to the need for leadership to be shown, and I'm not sure that that represents the sort of leadership that either you or I want to see the NHS actually having. So, can you confirm that sugary drinks, chocolate, other unhealthy snacks in vending machines and hospitals, will be obliterated by your Government in the future?

But I just want to—

And finally.

I just want to put on record we do welcome the publication of this statement. We want to engage positively with you to address what is a problem in Wales, and you have our full support with the consultation that is under way.

Thank you for the series of questions. You are right that advertising regulation is not devolved, although there is regular contact between officials and the UK Department of Health and Social Care. They're due to be consulting on extra measures around advertising and the potential to have, in particular, high-fat and high-salt-content foods—essentially, to have a watershed in advertising. We're in favour, broadly, of having restrictions on what can be advertised at what time, and, in particular, how that's targeted. Then, we're also considering whether there are things that we might be able to do in the way in which different products are advertised at events we ourselves sponsor and promote.

On your point about cooking for adults, if you look through the consultation document, we do recognise that, actually, helping people to prepare healthier food is a key factor. Actually, almost all of our anti-poverty programmes have looked at helping people to prepare healthier food as well. It's a standard part of the conversation—it's also part of what we look to do in promoting a healthy eating message through schools. It isn't just about educating children—it's actually about the whole school community. Part of what we'll be doing in the consultation is, in addition to the groups that I outlined, we're going to make sure that we talk to parents engaged in Flying Start. We're also going to have some conversations around school communities as well to talk to pupils and to parents, rather than just being one end or the other of the conversation.

On obesity and pregnancy, this comes back to the general challenge that we have on having a healthy weight through life. If you just want to have that conversation immediately before pregnancy or when someone is already pregnant, then there are still things you can do to help people to manage their weight. But, actually, we want to get ahead of that to try and make sure we're having a broader conversation rather than loading this into antenatal education.

But, of course, the reality is that we've increased our midwifery numbers to make sure we're Birthrate Plus compliant, and that is largely driven by the additional complexity in delivery of birth. That's partly because women tend to be older now when they give birth, but also because of the challenges of obesity too. So, there is a challenge about making sure that babies are safely delivered, and we have responded to that by increasing substantially and then sustaining the investment in midwifery training numbers.

But, like I said, in this, I think we're more interested in how we make every contact count, when people have contact with health professionals, and the more general cultural change that we want to see develop. That is about working with people, and it's why we're not referring to this as an obesity strategy, because, actually, the language and the framing in the conversation really matter. If people feel they're being judged, they're unlikely to engage, including those people who do want help to make a difference.

In terms of the measures that we want to adopt, that's part of the point of having the consultation—to see what works, and then, when we have that and when we deliver a strategy, we're clear about how we will have milestones and benchmarks to understand if we are genuinely making progress and what it is apt that the Government should be measured on and what it is apt that we want to set ambitions for the country on. That's a broader question here, because the Government on its own can't resolve this issue—if we could, then we certainly would have done by now.

On your point about social prescribing, I've made a number of statements in the Chamber about social prescribing, about its use not just in, for example, the national exercise referral scheme, but the additional investments we've made, together with the third sector, primarily targeted at mental health. I will update the Chamber again, when we have evaluation on the projects that I've already announced.

On your broader point about obliterating vending machines, there is always a challenge about the balance in what we do. I expect to come from the consultation some measures that will be challenging about how we take that forward. There will be very strong views on either side. If we simply say, 'Hospitals may not sell chocolate', for example, we know that people will simply buy it in other places as well.

So, it's part of the cultural change, but if you look at the way that health boards have moved over the last few years, actually, the food that you will see being made available within our hospital sites has markedly improved, and there's a much greater awareness of the offer and that it is a healthier offer as well. I expect that movement to continue, but I look forward, genuinely, to what Members here and outside have to say during the consultation. 

I'm very pleased to welcome the Minister's statement today and the progress that is being made on this very important piece of work, which, of course, arises out of a Plaid Cymru amendment to the original legislation. I'd associate myself with everything that the Minister has said himself and that Darren Millar has said about the importance of this issue to the health and well-being of our community.

This is such a wide-ranging potential agenda, and I can only touch on a small number of issues today, but, as Darren Millar has said, I would like to assure the Minister that Plaid Cymru will be keen to support him in the progress of this work and to co-operate in any way that is appropriate.

The first question I want to raise with the Minister is the issue of pace on this work. Now, I think it's very important to take time to do it right, but I'm sure that the Minister will agree with me that every day that we are not taking the actions we need to take is a day too long. So, I'd seek the Minister's assurance today that the October timetable will not be allowed to slip and that he will take personal responsibility for ensuring that it doesn't, given the importance of the issues.

Again, in terms of evaluating the progress on the strategy once it's in place, I would put it to the Minister that we will need specific targets. We will need a national target about how we're going to reduce the percentages the Minister's rightly highlighted of our fellow citizens who are either obese or overweight, but we'll also need specific targets for specific organisations to act on, because as the Minister has rightly said himself, we don't need any more warm words on these issues and we do know that what gets measured gets done. 

With regard to the Minister's healthy environment heading and the suggestions for legislation, I wonder if the Minister would give further consideration to how the planning system might be used to ensure, for example, that we no longer have so many fast food outlets really, really close to schools. As I understand it at the moment, there is no capacity for local authorities to limit these on health grounds and I really think that many of us would very strongly support a limit. The Minister will be aware that this is actually particularly an issue in poorer communities where young people may choose to buy chips rather than pay for a healthier school dinner, so that they have a little bit more money in their pockets. 

With regard to healthier settings, I seek the Minister's reassurance that while there's a lot of emphasis here on physical activity in schools, he'll be aware of the Health, Social Services and Sport Committee's report with regard to physical activity. Will he ensure—working with the Minister for Education, who's here—that this will be built into the new curriculum? I'm particularly keen to see that we take steps to ensure that teachers, especially in primary schools, have the skills and the confidence to build physical confidence and physical activity into what they do with children at that very early age. 

Also, with regard to healthier settings, I seek the Minister's assurance that we will ensure that further education colleges are included in this. We know that there's a big drop-off of physical activity, particularly amongst women and girls, between the ages of 16 and 25, and it seems to me that ensuring that further education settings are providing opportunities for young people at that age range can be really, really important in helping to develop and maintain healthy habits, particularly for women and girls.

The Minister's statement rightly highlights that levels of obesity are linked to areas of higher deprivation, and I hope that the Minister will take on board that the strategy should look at access to healthy foods. I would submit, Deputy Presiding Officer, that there are not very many mothers and fathers in Wales who do not know that an apple is better for their child than chips, but the truth is that potatoes are cheaper than apples. So, will he consider exploring, as the strategy's developed, access to healthier foods? I'm thinking particularly of food co-operatives. Some innovative work I saw in the Llanelli area where you've got local farmers coming together with local communities—picking up on Darren Millar's point about needing cooking skills, of course—but using the surplus produce that would otherwise be thrown away to provide at very low cost to local communities. 

Just two very brief further points. With regard to healthier people, I'm very pleased to see the Minister's reference to the First 1000 Days. The Minister will, I'm sure, be very well aware of the importance of breastfeeding in ensuring early child health and reducing the risks of obesity. I believe it's very important that we promote that positively to women, but also that we don't put pressure on them. I think it would be a crucial part of this strategy to ensure that there is support for women, going forward—not pressure, because we know that's unhelpful—but support for women, going forward. 

Finally, I'd like to pick up on the Minister's own point about the tone of the way in which we discuss these issues with our fellow citizens. The Minister is very right to say that if people feel judged, they will not co-operate, they won't participate—in fact, those at high risk turn to comfort eating. But I'd also add to what the Minister has said—that it's very important that there's nothing in the tone of these discussions that can contribute to the kind of anxiety about weight and body image that we know has such a terrible effect, particularly on young women, but increasingly also on young men, and that, if it's not properly managed, can lead to eating disorders. The Minister's referred himself to the impact of obesity and weight issues on mental health. That is, of course, true for people who carry too much weight, but it can also go the other way. So, I'm seeking the Minister's assurance today that when we look at the language we use, we don't put ourselves in a position where we risk worsening that agenda. 

I'm happy to confirm the commitment I've already given to an October date for the strategy to be published, and I expect it to have milestones and measures, but for there to be smart milestones, measures and targets, not aspirational ones. I'm really keen to actually have something that is achievable, as well as measures where we can track our progress, so people can see the progress that we are making not just as a Government and public services, but actually how we're influencing and helping to change behaviours, because much of what we're talking about, really, is how we help to change people's behaviour, as well as one of the point you made about how we make healthier choices easier choices. That's really important for us as well. 

And on one of those points, of course, unfortunately, it is not at all clear—in fact, the majority view is that we don't have the powers to have public health considerations as a legitimate planning construct, so we can't restrict the number of fast food outlets around schools, leisure centres or other areas. I think that is a problem. It is an area that the Welsh Government argued with the UK Government over with the passage of the last Wales Act, about powers deliberately retained by the UK Government. I think we would be able to make much more progress if we could take that into account as a legitimate planning consideration, and I think that we would all be much the better off for. But that still does not mean that when we consider planning healthy environments taking advantage of what we have, that there isn't more that we can do already in the way that we deliver services and the way we plan new developments.

On your broader point about healthy settings and the activity in schools, there's a point here about health literacy as part of the new curriculum. We've just had a statement lasting over an hour with questions about the development of the new curriculum. We're very clear about the role of health and health literacy within that new curriculum. To be clear about activity in schools, we're not just talking about the daily mile and we're not just talking about sport in schools as well, because people like me who loved and enjoyed sport are one group of people, but, actually, there are others who never liked it at all. But we still need to understand that activity is an important part of getting around and getting on, and that doesn't mean to say we're going to say that everyone has to get up and be brutalised by wearing far too little clothing on a cold day and having someone shout at you; that is not a great way to make people fall in love with a sport or any other form of particular activity. It's how to normalise activity that I think matters.

And on your point about cultural change—of course, that is exactly what I said we're looking to achieve, and I'm sure that the Member for Llanelli will be taking forward his continuing interest in active travel, for example. I mentioned that in the statement about how we get around and move around. That will really matter too. But also, I'm sure you'll recall, of course, the healthy and active fund, with £5 million, that I was very happy to launch with my colleague the Deputy Minister for culture—. It's a slightly updated title now—Deputy Minister for Welsh language and international Affairs. No? That's the Minister. Lord Elis-Thomas anyway—[Laughter.]—and I launched the £5 million healthy and active fund. That's about making use of all the assets that we have and, again, it's looking to promote cultural change, as well as to make the best use of all the opportunities for greater physical activity. 

Finally, on your point about breastfeeding, it's a regular topic we return to in the Chamber, and so we should do. There's a challenge with the move from breast is best to breast is normal, and to normalise breastfeeding and to make sure that it is accepted and supported, and, equally, that women who make different choices about feeding their children are not judged either. And that's your final point about not judging people, about wanting to support people to make healthier choices, and not wanting to tip people into a place where they have eating disorders either by overeating or undereating, but actually about how we say, 'What is a healthy weight and a healthy mind to be able to maintain and sustain a healthy weight?', and that is the focus of our attention. That is the way I want the conversation to carry on. 

I disagree with you one thing, where I think you were saying that poor diet shouldn't be a defining feature. Unfortunately, it is a defining feature of Wales. We are the most obese nation in Europe, and that is a pretty shocking statistic. So, we have to stop talking about it and we actually have to do things about it.

I absolutely agree with the focus on the first 1,000 days; I agree that's a very good place to start. But, as you do acknowledge, we can't leave it to schools to pick up the burden of tackling childhood obesity on their own; we have to work with them. But we absolutely have to tackle food in schools. My predecessor as the Member for Cardiff Central, Jenny Randerson, fought long and hard to introduce the Healthy Eating in Schools (Wales) Measure 2009 and she had this vision of instituting freshly made, fresh food in schools. It simply hasn't happened. We still have the large multiple catering companies bringing in food from goodness knows where and, frankly, there is next to no monitoring going on. I was devastated to learn that Flintshire had abandoned the Food for Life programme they had instituted with the Soil Association because that included elements of monitoring as to where the food was coming from. In none of the catering organisations now serving our local authorities is there any monitoring going on. Since 2013, Estyn has an obligation to report on food and drink, but does not inspect it. And there isn't anybody else doing it unless you've got particularly vigilant governors or school councils. So, we need legislation.

We cannot have catering companies flogging bottles of water in school because they simply don't provide it in a jug. This is outrageous. And we have to remember that people like Gareth Wyn Jones struggled to make meals from fresh food when he tried to do that in Canton in west Cardiff, simply because there isn't enough fresh vegetables available within a 50-mile radius. We already have the hallmarks of what needs to be done in Kevin Morgan's report, 'Good Food For All', published by Institute of Welsh Affairs in 2015, and that is public procurement in schools, hospitals, care homes, prisons and government buildings. That is something that the Government already has powers over, and we need to start instituting healthy food being served up in all of those intuitions as one of the ways in which we need to start changing the conversation. 

Lastly, I do hope that the Minister will support Veg Power's latest approach to making vegetables fun for children, because it's no use simply telling children they've got to eat five a day—that isn't going to work, particularly if their parents are simply unaware of the five-a-day message. So, 'eating veg is fun' is the way forward in my view. I think there's an excellent little advert that went out on ITV last week, and I hope that the Minister will associate himself with that sort of creative way of getting children engaged in what they're eating is what they are going to turn into. 

Thank you for the comments and points. I do want to make clear that the Government does not accept that we should allow poor diet to continue to be a defining feature of the way people live their lives and that must be the ambition of the Government to set out. And I recognise what you've had to say about healthy eating within schools and the challenges of procurement, about having healthy meals and adherence to the current regulations we have when considering further legislative change. It's not just about the curriculum, but whether there is legislative change needed as well. And of course, we're having a conversation to flesh out what the most appropriate steps are to make the biggest difference. That will require us to work together with local authorities in thinking about what is guidance, what is required to actually achieve the right outcome.

But I should say that, when you go into primary schools in particular, I'm regularly struck by how consistent the message is about healthy eating. Messages about high sugar, high fat, high salt, and the way that your final point is about the normalisation of making healthy food, and that it's fun to eat healthy food as opposed to something that is an act of penance, rather than something that you should actually enjoy. And I know this from my own child in the school system and the term's current project is 'scrumptious', so they're looking to try out new and different tastes and flavours and to make them interesting and to normalise it at an early age. And I'm delighted to say he is in particular enjoying this theme of his learning journey, and I wish that other children have the same opportunity. So, again, we look at what we do, how we do it, and how we make it more consistent to make the real cultural change we're all looking to achieve.

Thanks, Minister, for your statement today. Obesity is an important issue, as all of the speakers have made clear, and it's going to become more and more of a problem, financially, unless we can get to grips with it. I think I don't disagree with anything that anyone else has said in the Chamber today, but different people are coming from different angles, and it's going to be a difficult job to bring all of these approaches together in a coherent programme. So, there are difficulties ahead. Jenny Rathbone was just talking about the importance of the school diet, and she also mentioned public procurement, which is something that has cropped up recently on the environment committee, which is chaired by Mike Hedges, who's also a very keen proponent of using the lever of public procurement. So, this is something that we could do, and it could also link in to food producers in a post-Brexit environment finding a market for their produce. So, I hope that there is some way in which that idea of public procurement can feed into your programme of tackling obesity. Of course, that's only one angle. Physical activity is certainly another major issue and the need to increase physical activity among the young, and I think it needs to be brought into schools as much as it can be done. But you've actually yourself raised some of the issues that other people have also touched on, in that we can't just limit physical activity to people who are good at it, because the problem, actually, is getting people who are not that great at physical activity, who may not think that they've got a physically very attractive body or a sporty body, into meaningful physical activity. Angela Burns has raised this issue before when she's spoken about it from the Conservative benches. So, this is one of the problems.

Darren Millar was talking about social prescribing, which of course is another thing that we can meaningfully use. But again the problem of social prescribing is that, if you're going to get people to go to gyms, if people think that they're fat, they're probably, a lot of them—it's going to be difficult to get them to go to the gym because they will probably have certain anxieties about their body shape. So, these are massive difficulties, and how we are going to overcome them, I don't know. We do need a joined-up approach.

Active travel is also certainly part of it, and I'm slightly concerned about the way that active travel has kind of been bounced around the Government in the past. It's gone between different portfolios and different departments and different Ministers. So, I hope it's something that is going to be taken seriously. Seemingly, Lee Waters, I think you suggested, or someone suggested, may now be responsible for it. Now, we don't have any real evidence that, since the active travel Act was introduced, levels of participation have improved much. So, I think we do need to use that Act, get a grip of it, implement it properly and use it as part of your programme. So, it's a wide-ranging issue and I'd be glad to hear your thoughts on it today.

Thank you for the range of areas you've covered. On body image, active travel and procurement, for example, I think I've covered those in the statement and been clear that they're areas that we need to cover. They're part of the consultation and I'm looking forward to hearing what people have to say about the proposals that we are consulting upon. I'm genuinely interested in what people have to say and about evidence of what has the best prospect of working, because we're not alone in having this challenge. Every other western nation has a similar challenge, and doing nothing isn't really an option. That will mean that we'll need to learn as we do as well, because there isn't a western European country you can point to where they've got it right on a national level. There is some evidence about parts of Holland on a city basis where leadership has made a real difference, though.

I just politely disagree with you on your point about physical activity in the young. Of course it's important that we try to encourage patterns for life in young people, but, actually, physical activity matters for all of us, whether you're young, whether you see yourself as middle-aged or older, and I won't ask people in this Chamber to put themselves into categories like that, but we know that there are benefits for all of us in remaining physically active through all points in our lives, and it's about what form of activity and how we then make that an easier thing to do and, again, a normal thing to do and, again, not a form of penance or punishment.

Thank you, Minister. I've got a couple of questions today around the issue of childhood obesity, which is an issue that I am very concerned about. Of course, we know that there can be specific geographical problems in terms of tackling that issue, and a statistic that has always shocked me is the fact that a quarter of children in the Cwm Taf health board area are obese—not just overweight, but clinically obese. I know your statement talks about tackling health inequalities, but would you be able to provide any further information on this, or, indeed, examples of best practice that you would look to promote?

Childhood obesity can also be made worse by not giving our young people the confidence to get out and about in the natural world, which, again, is a cause that I have championed since I've come to this place. In the south Wales Valleys, there's a natural world that is quite often on their very doorsteps. With just 13 per cent of Welsh children considering themselves to have a strong connection to the outdoors, how are you working with colleagues across Government to see how that perception can be tackled? I’ve spoken previously about the role more formal outdoors education can play within that. So, I'd be interested in hearing what discussions you may have had about how that could fit into the strategy to tackle childhood obesity.

Thank you for the comments. You're right to point out the differential scale of the challenge that we face. And it's part of the re-normalisation of activity and thinking about the choices that we make as parents, because we make choices for our children, and, in doing so, we're actually helping to set their patterns for life, and that is part of our challenge. Again, it goes back to not judging people. If you say to parents, 'You're bad parents because your child is overweight', that is never going to—well, for the great majority of people, that will send them further away and it won't engage the level of trust and the conversation we need to have about how we make those healthier choices much easier for people. And there are micro-community examples of things that have worked. The challenge is to do this at scale, and that's our big challenge: to have significant cultural change and community changes in behaviour.

There is always a greater opportunity to be had when children are younger and parents are, frankly, more likely to share stories with each other. You're more likely to have interaction with parents when the children are younger, with the different activities they undertake pre primary school and after as well. So, there is a real point of opportunity within those early years in life. We're actually seeing some helpful changes with, for example, the First 1000 Days programme, but we're looking to have a greater scale in consistency and activity.

On the broader point about how we're working across Government, on the healthy and active theme, we initially actually had two different strategies: one on activity and one on healthy weight. We've deliberately brought them together because there are clear links and we want to make them deliberate. In fact, last week, I and the Deputy Minister were attending the cross-Government group looking at how we take forward greater activity, to look at the different levers of Government from active travel to a healthier environment to people in Lesley Griffiths's team, and to look at how we deal with this across Government and not just say, 'This is about health and education'. And that's also part of the reason why we had the healthy and active fund working with not just Sport Wales but also, for example, with Natural Resources Wales as well to make use of the assets we already have, and, again, to normalise the use of those assets that exist within easy reach of every community to make sure people know that they're there and actually take up the opportunity to use them.

And, finally, Caroline Jones.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you for your statement, Minister. Obesity is one of the greatest challenges facing our nation, and I welcome the fact that the Welsh Government has unveiled this strategy, because we are the most obese nation in Europe. So, a strategy is very welcome. Minister, there is much about your plan that I support and I welcome the focus on prevention, particularly in the early years. But, whatever age, if change is needed, it is to be welcomed and encouraged.

Minister, in addition to the strategy, will you be working with the Minister for Education to ensure the new curriculum makes provision to teach children and young people about healthy eating? In our communities and towns, we must also ensure that mums, young mums, feel confident about the facilities available for breastfeeding. I welcome the ban on energy drinks for the under 16s. Thankfully, the number of young people consuming sugary drinks has fallen by a quarter over the past decade, and those who consume them drink far less than 10 years ago. School playing fields, or lack of them due to these areas being built on, are also a major concern to me because physical activity is extremely important and it's becoming less and less.

Employers offering assistance to purchase bicycles to cycle to work is also to be welcomed and needs to be highlighted more. However, according to the national diet and nutrition survey, fibre intake is down, as is vitamin and mineral consumption, and many people still consume much less than five a day. Minister, over the past year or so, we have seen the increasing popularity of veganism, and, while a vegan diet can be really healthy, care has to be taken to ensure the right balance of vitamins and minerals. Minister, will you be considering improvements to food labelling to help people ensure that, in addition to reducing fat, salt and sugar, they consume sufficient vitamins and minerals to maintain a healthy body?

On the subject of food labelling, I have concerns about mandating calorie labelling for food purchased and eaten outside the home. While this is relatively easy for large outlets, such as McDonalds or Greggs, the little local cafe may not be able to cope with the additional demands and costs. So, Minister, what consideration have you given to incentivising moves such as this by offering, for example, a reduction of business rates to help those small businesses take this further step?

Finally, Minister, while I welcome the focus on prevention, more must be done to help those who are already overweight or obese. What discussions have you had with the Royal College of General Practitioners about ensuring that GPs have the difficult conversations with their patients regarding weight? And how do you plan to address the concerns of the Royal College of Physicians that little or no progress has been made in improving specialist services for people who are already obese? Tackling health inequalities is also extremely important, as Vikki Howells has already mentioned.

So, thank you once again, Minister. I look forward to seeing your final strategy and I also look forward to working with you to achieve a healthier Wales.

Thank you for your comments and questions and the broad welcome for the consultation. To try and take them in reverse order, we're clear that we'll be looking at the clinical pathway for dealing with obesity; we recognise that there's more that we need to do, and, again, greater consistency and learning from where that's most successful in the country. 

I think your point about GPs having difficult conversations is actually about how contact is regular with different parts of our health and care system. So, it's not just an issue for general practitioners, but, again, how sensitively the conversation takes place and whether the offer of help and support is available. Most people actually want to be a broadly more healthy weight and shape, and they're aware of that, and the challenge is how we help people to do so in a way that is empowering and not judgmental, as I've said many times before.

On your broader point about food labelling, that's the point behind the consultation—to understand that there are different views, but many food businesses already provide the average calories in a serving, whether you're in a large multiple or even in smaller outlets as well. So, we're looking to consult to try and understand what that might look like. On your broader point about changing diet, that is exactly one of the reasons why we're here—not just about more fat, more sugar and more salt, but actually a lack other points within our diets as well. 

And the points about energy drinks, breastfeeding, and, indeed, the curriculum, I think have been made in previous contributions so I won't test the patience of the Deputy Presiding Officer by repeating answers I've already given.

Thank you very much.

Item 5 is a statement by the Deputy Minister and the Chief Whip, 'Making Wales a Nation of Sanctuary', and I call on the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip, Jane Hutt.

Today, the Welsh Government is publishing the ‘Nation of Sanctuary—Refugee and Asylum Seeker Plan'. The plan captures a range of actions to improve the lives of people seeking sanctuary in Wales, and these actions span across Welsh Government and beyond. They reflect the joined-up approach needed to improve and enhance the experience of refugees and asylum seekers in Wales.

The plan represents a significant step towards our ambition of making Wales a nation of sanctuary. The name we've given this plan is a clear statement of our intent. Wales has a long and proud history of welcoming refugees, but we want to move beyond welcoming individuals, by harnessing their skills and enriching our communities.

Our previous refugee and asylum seeker delivery plan was published in March 2016. Since then, the humanitarian concern prompted by the Syrian refugee crisis led to the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee undertaking an inquiry in this area. They recommended that Welsh Government revise its plan to better suit the needs of refugees and asylum seekers in Wales. As a Welsh Government, we also wanted to show stronger leadership and direction in this area, and we agreed to develop and consult on a revised version of the plan.

The nation of sanctuary plan has been developed through co-production. We met and listened to people seeking sanctuary and engaged with the organisations that represent them, both before and during the consultation. Their participation and views were crucial in the creation of the revised plan and I'd like to thank all of them for dedicating their time and to supporting this process. This engagement helped us to better understand the current challenges that these individuals face on a daily basis, which is crucial if we are to provide effective support to address these problems. I would also like to thank the members of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee for their excellent report, 'I used to be someone', and its recommendations, which created a strong basis for our discussions with those seeking sanctuary.

As always, we must acknowledge that asylum and immigration policy is not devolved to the Welsh Government. We do not control many of the key levers to make a difference. The plan reflects our efforts to implement positive change in those areas where we have responsibility. It outlines our commitment to continue to work with the UK Government, local authorities, the Welsh Refugee Coalition—who I'll be meeting shortly—and people seeking sanctuary to deliver better outcomes.

It is a very challenging climate for refugees and asylum seekers in the UK. The political discourse and media reporting around immigration over the last few years has heightened tensions between communities. Welsh communities have now welcomed close to 1,000 resettled Syrian refugees, with much positivity and very few negative incidents. In that time, Welsh communities have also welcomed many more refugees from across the world who arrived through the spontaneous asylum route. The Welsh Government is opposed to the two-tier system, which penalises those who arrive through the asylum route. In addition, we're also opposed to the closure of the Dubs scheme, which was providing a legal route to safety for refugee children in Europe.  Moreover, we continue to oppose the compliant or hostile environment policies, which counter our international obligations to refugees and asylum seekers. We fundamentally believe in putting people first and not using immigration status as a barrier to support. We celebrate the support that has been given to refugees and asylum seekers regardless of their country of origin, and we aim to help them contribute to Welsh society in a variety of ways.

Refugees and asylum seekers possess experience and skills that are of value to Wales. If we provide these individuals with the right support, we can unlock their potential, with great benefit to this country. One of the key ways to improve support over the coming two years will be via our ReStart: Refugee Integration project, which will deliver an ambitious integration support programme for refugees, primarily in Wales's four asylum dispersal clusters. The project will improve access to language tuition, employability support and local cultural knowledge to aid integration. At least 520 refugees will receive a holistic assessment of their needs and be given targeted support to help their efforts to integrate into society.

The nation of sanctuary plan takes a holistic approach to help the integration of people seeking sanctuary. It will be supported by our soon-to-be launched sanctuary website. The site will provide a wealth of relevant information in one accessible location for refugees and asylum seekers. Ensuring that people seeking sanctuary can develop their knowledge of life in Wales and understand their rights and opportunities is vital to help their integration and settlement. The site includes sections on health, education and employment, as well as language and general information on the culture and history of Wales.

The plan I'm launching today highlights a range of targeted and culturally appropriate support to best suit the needs of refugees and asylum seekers. We recognise the importance of designing and delivering services that take these needs into account: mental health services that address the difficult and individual experiences of people seeking sanctuary; interventions to mitigate the risk of refugees and asylum seekers from falling into destitution and actions to prevent these vulnerable individuals from being exploited; and support to ensure that refugees and asylum seekers are safeguarded, in particular unaccompanied asylum-seeking children. For example, we've provided funding to local authority social services that aims to establish an evidence base for a guardianship service for unaccompanied asylum-seeking children. This would include any demand for such a service and what it could look like. The funding is also available for social worker training in age assessment, immigration law and cultural awareness.

We believe the plan is another step in the right direction and will be monitored rigorously to deliver on the objectives and actions. We recognise there is more to be done. I will continue to explore new ways to provide more inclusive services for people seeking sanctuary, and we intend to maintain momentum following the publication of the plan.

It is in nobody’s interest to prevent individuals from seeking to take up opportunities and adding to the diversity of our communities. Eligible refugees and their family members are able to access statutory student support. The Minister for Education has confirmed that our officials are also exploring possible changes to the eligibility criteria for statutory student funding to enable asylum seekers to benefit from the support available.

We recognise that asylum seekers are often isolated and their mental health can deteriorate through no right to work and very little money to access the wider community. The Minister for Economy and Transport has confirmed that officials are exploring the potential for asylum seekers to become a specific group of persons to benefit from discounted bus travel. Persons aged 60 and over or who are disabled and reside in Wales are already eligible to apply to the relevant local authority for a bus pass, which should entitle them to free bus travel throughout Wales.

We are delighted that the UNHCR—the UN high commissioner for refugees—representative to the UK has provided a wholehearted endorsement of the plan. The UNHCR is the UN's refugee agency and is dedicated to saving lives and protecting the rights of people seeking sanctuary. We value the words of support and encouragement from the UNHCR and we appreciate this acknowledgement of our efforts to improve the lives of refugees and asylum seekers in Wales.

Over the next few years, we intend to build upon this plan to ensure Wales is truly a nation of sanctuary for refugees and asylum seekers, for the improvement of everybody in society.

Thanks, again, Deputy Minister, for meeting me this morning to pre-brief me on this, and no doubt other colleagues from across the Chamber, and for your statement. We've long provided a safe haven for victims of persecution, violence, ethnic cleansing and genocide from across the world, and long may that remain the case, because if we ever lose that, we'll have lost our humanity and true identity.

In your plan, you provide definitions of asylum seekers and refugees, showing that an asylum seeker is a person fleeing persecution in his or her homeland. A refugee is a person who, owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted on grounds of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is unsafe at home. You also state the term 'refugee' includes individuals not recognised as refugees but who have been granted indefinite leave to remain. 

As I warned you this morning, I will therefore question you on the basis of concerns raised with me by a failed asylum seeker at last Friday's Holocaust memorial event in Wrexham, currently going through the appeals process. Would such persons be therefore covered by this or would they not? If not, would you consider that further to see whether they might be incorporated?

Some months ago, in June, responding to a statement by the then leader of the house on Wales—a nation of sanctuary, I noted figures from the previous year that had showed a very mixed picture for resettlement of refugees across Wales. It showed at that point that Merthyr Tydfil and Neath Port Talbot had accepted no refugees, Carmarthenshire was the highest at 51 and Swansea with 33. In north Wales, Denbighshire had 21 but only five in Flintshire and two in Conwy. The then leader of the house replied,

'The Member did raise why there is patchy take-up...but, of course, they're not the ongoing stats.'

Are you able to provide now or subsequently to Members an up-to-date picture, or as up to date as possible, of the stats so we can establish whether the situation is improving in the areas where at that point there appeared to be greater barriers?

You refer in your statement to a commitment to work with UK Government, local authorities, Welsh refugee coalition and people seeking sanctuary to deliver better outcomes, and of course you used the word co-production. You also referred to your ReStart: Refugee Integration project to deliver an ambitious integration support programme for refugees primarily in Wales for asylum dispersal clusters and state that ensuring that people seeking sanctuary can develop their knowledge of life in Wales and understand rights and opportunities as being vital to help their integration and settlement.

How do you also propose to engage with the broader population, because it's clearly a two-way process? Unless we can break down barriers to understanding at home, then no matter how well we seek to integrate our new neighbours, those barriers will persist. So, it is very much a two-way process. 

Much of the heavy lifting across Wales is already being done, often on a shoestring, by a myriad of third sector bodies and partnerships between the third sector and others. So, how do you propose to engage with such projects? I'll give you a few examples. I think I mentioned to you this morning I'm honorary president of the North Wales Association for Multicultural Integration, which has been delivering on this very agenda for a number of years. Last May, I hosted in the Assembly the Let Us Integrate through Music and Art event put on by the North Wales Association for Multicultural Integration and Cwmbran-based KIRAN, the Knowledge based Inter-community Relationship and Awareness Network, aimed at removing barriers that keep people apart and promoting the mutual understanding that brings them together. Last May, I had a meeting in the Assembly with the Welsh Refugee Council, the North Wales Association for Multicultural Integration and the personal support service CAIS to talk about how we can work in partnership to break down barriers and increase understanding of each other's cultures.

Last October, both I and Julie James spoke at NWAMI's annual Celebration of Integration Day event at the Temple of Peace in Cardiff. I closed the event by again emphasising the importance of integration by celebrating our glorious diversity together, building community cohesion and a tolerant society through cultural engagement. So, I hope you will outline further how your plan will engage and embrace those projects already operating across the nation of Wales, doing this heavy lifting to build bridges from both ends.

Finally, if I may, just a question on how we can support within this agenda the local city and town initiatives that are also taking off. You'll recall well how Wales became a fair-trade nation because of the jigsaw pieces starting separately and coming together, with Wrexham as the first fair-trade town and others coming together before Wales could become a whole fair-trade nation. Now, in this case, last summer for example, Synergy in Flintshire, working together to make Flintshire a place of sanctuary for refugees and those fleeing violence and persecution, united not only Synergy members, but the Wales Cities of Sanctuary, Ethnic Minorities and Youth Support Team Wales, church, charity and action group representatives, Theatr Clwyd and Aura libraries and leisure—again, work on the ground that can further benefit from working with your plan.

And finally—

No, you've had 'finally'. This is the second 'finally'. Come on, move on. Quick.

This Friday in Wrexham is the launch of Wrexham's town of sanctuary, a campaign to make Wrexham a town of sanctuary and an invitation to local groups and individuals to get involved—a prime example of great work that you can benefit from by joining up the dots, I hope you'll agree.

Thank you very much, Mark Isherwood, and thank you for your opening words and for the opportunity to have a discussion prior to this statement this afternoon. You do make a very important point about the way in which we support our refugees and asylum seekers, and I think in the plan, as you highlight, in our recognition of asylum seekers and refugees, we use the phrase 'people seeking sanctuary' in our plan, and we're using that as a term to refer to refugees or asylum seekers from any background and in any circumstances. We need to recognise these members, as we say in the plan, as people first and foremost, and, of course, their immigration status is key to this in terms of their rights, their opportunities and obligations. So, we have to recognise this in terms of well-being and protection.

You did ask that first question about the situation where there are refused asylum seekers who maybe in the position I think you mentioned, where they may be under appeal, but there are obviously situations we've raised in this Chamber, across this Chamber, about people in those circumstances, and people have made representations. We can only make representations, as we do as elected Members, and indeed as a Welsh Government, on behalf of those people. But what we need to do is say that we will provide within our powers essential support to refused asylum seekers, and I think that's where all of the services and all of the agencies, as you say, come together in order to provide that kind of support, because there is a danger of trafficking, exploitation, destitution or even serious health conditions arising from people who can't claim public funds, which of course is often the circumstance. We continue to ensure that refused asylum seekers are not denied healthcare; they're entitled to the same services as any other citizen. The plan does contain the action to work towards preventing people seeking sanctuary, including those with no recourse to public funds, becoming human trafficking or modern slavery victims. So, this is a point where we have to look at the holistic approach, within our powers, to the circumstances of refugees in terms of their needs, particularly if they have been refused in terms of their situation.

Now, we do need to move forward, and this plan does, in terms of the ways in which we can help with integration. The ReStart: Refugee Integration project, which, of course, I highlight in the statement, is going to be a very ambitious integration support programme for refugees, and primarily, of course, in the four asylum dispersal clusters—Cardiff, Swansea, Newport and Wrexham. That's going to provide particular support for, as I've said, at least 520 refugees. The total cost is £2 million, and that is going to include match funding from the Welsh Government as well.

It is about also ensuring that we can focus on some of those key areas, such as housing needs. You mentioned that, of course, access to appropriate accommodation is a key issue for people seeking sanctuary. We're seeking to work more closely with the UK Government in terms of the new asylum accommodation and support contracts, but, obviously, that's something where we're very dependent on UK Government co-operation. But, we can work, particularly in our Refugee Well Housing project, in terms of supporting and funding the Move-On project after refugees receive recognition of their status.

You make a very important point, Mark, about the organisations, civic society and communities that are playing their part. You described that yourself, in terms of the events you've attended and the organisation that you're already a patron of—a president of. I think, also, we need to recognise that, in terms of the Welsh Refugee Coalition, there are over 30 organisations. Many of those are all-Wales organisations, and some are more local.

You also ask the question about the statistics, and updating those statistics that you asked the former leader of the house about, in terms of the interim statement she made on the plan. I certainly will provide the update on those statistics for you,FootnoteLink but I think it is very welcome that we see that we are reaching nearly 1,000 refugees, in terms of the Syrian displacement scheme. That's something that is a result of local authorities agreeing to support and resettle Syrian refugees. Across this Chamber, we will all know where our local authorities are in terms of that support, but I will give you the update on that.

I'm also very keen to support—it goes back to the community—the community sponsorship schemes that are taking place across Wales. I think we saw Wales highlighted in terms of the Refugees Welcome campaign—the growth of community sponsorship organisations was actually started in west Wales, in the town of Narberth, and has spread. Certainly, Penarth and, in my own constituency, Croeso Llantwit are progressing the same community sponsorship. So, clearly, we have a lot to develop as a result of the plan, and I thank you for your questions.

Thank you. We are halfway through the statement and we've had one set of questions. I've got a number of speakers. So, Helen Mary Jones.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to thank the Minister very much for her statement today. There is a great deal to be welcomed both in the actual plan and in the statement. I'd like to apologise to the Minister and to the Chamber for the fact that I've stepped in at the last minute to respond to this statement because my colleague Leanne Wood has had to go home due to climatic conditions beyond her control. So, if I'm asking questions of the Minister that she's already explored—that the Deputy Minister has already explored—separately with Leanne Wood, I hope that she will forgive me and simply tell me to go and ask Leanne. [Laughter.]

First of all, I think, in all seriousness, we have to acknowledge that there are some serious barriers remaining to creating the nation of sanctuary that we all aspire to, I hope, in this Chamber—or most of us at least. These barriers stem from the fact that the UK has had a deeply dysfunctional public debate on migration, including on immigration and asylum, for many, many years. I would slightly disagree with the Minister here, because this is not just in recent years. To my knowledge, this goes back 20 years at least. I can think of some very unhelpful columns written in The Sun newspaper by the then Cabinet Minister David Blunkett, for example, raising questions about civil rights lawyers and the decision to restrict the civil liberties of asylum seekers.

I do think we have to acknowledge that this is a profoundly political issue. And while nobody in this Chamber could ever doubt the personal commitment of Mark Isherwood to the issues that he's just been raising with the Minister, it is incumbent upon us to point out that he sits in this Chamber in the name of the party that is responsible for the hostile environment and responsible, for example, for the dreadful conditions faced by people seeking sanctuary in some of the Home Office provided accommodation, for example. I know it's traditional in this Chamber, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I support that, to seek to be consensual when we can, but we cannot, I would put to the Minister, address these profoundly difficult issues unless we acknowledge the hostile environment—and I don't just mean the particular hostile environment, but the generally very difficult environment.

So, I'd ask the Minister, in terms of my first question: what can we all do to try and correct some of these misconceptions and some of the prejudices that have led directly to some of the challenges that people seeking sanctuary in Wales face? The Minister's statement mentions that co-production has been key to the formation of this plan, and I'd be interested to hear a little more about how asylum seekers themselves have been involved in the development of the plan and what, if anything, has changed in terms of the proposals as a result of their input. I'm sure the Minister would agree with me that this is crucially important.

The Minister mentioned in her response to Mark Isherwood some of the problems faced around accommodation for asylum seekers. We know that some of that is of very, very poor quality. I was encouraged to hear the Minister say that she is still seeking to be able to participate in the letting of that new contract, and I wonder if she can tell us a little bit more today about what the Welsh Government has been doing about that because it seems to me that it is in no-one's interests, not even the interests of the Home Office, that the Welsh Government should not be allowed to participate in the setting of that contract and ensuring that the accommodation provided is of the standard that we would aspire to, as set out in the plan the Minister is announcing today.

Linked to this issue, the Minister's statement also refers to the big issue of homelessness amongst refugees and asylum seekers and the Minister will be very well aware of the ambitious plans launched by Crisis last year to end homelessness across the whole of the UK. I know that my colleagues have raised this with your predecessor and I wonder to what extent the ambitions and actions suggested by Crisis have informed the accommodation issues that you raise in the report. I think it's very important that we do commit ourselves to ultimately ending homelessness, and particularly for this very, very vulnerable group of people who I am happy, and I'm sure the Minister would be happy, to call our fellow citizens, because they're our fellow citizens if they're here as far as I'm concerned. 

May I turn briefly to two education issues? Under the 'Ambitious and Learning' heading in the action plan, action 8 refers to tackling bullying, obviously in schools, and that must be very, very welcome. I'm sure the Minister would agree with me that this bullying often arises from the ignorance and prejudice that I referred to earlier on and that is that very damaging culture that we have to seek to address. Has the Minister had the opportunity to discuss with the Minister for Education how the new curriculum—the commitment in the new curriculum to helping our young people to grow up to be good citizens—how we can address some of this prejudice and discrimination through that new curriculum and indeed through other measures before the new curriculum comes in, and what measures the Welsh Government can take, particularly to help challenge the rise of the far right? I'm thinking particularly here of young people being vulnerable to those messages when they hear them on social media.

There's much emphasis very rightly in the plan on integration and encouraging people to participate in the community. Of course, essential to that is asylum seekers being able to have access to learning English and Welsh. Of course, the decision has been made to remove the mega grant, which was a crucial tool to enable schools to teach languages to people who have very recently come. How are we going to ensure that the resources are there, particularly for schools, and also for adult learners, to ensure that people can get access to learning the two languages of this country? Because without that no attempt at integration will be possible. 

I've pressed the Minister to work closely with the Minister for Education around the statutory student support. I think it's absolutely crucial that those changes that she mentions in her statement are made, and that asylum seekers and refugees are able to access higher education in Wales. Apart from anything else, it's not in our own interest not to use those skills.

And finally, we know that over 2,000 doctors have been refused visas by the UK Government in what I regard as, frankly, a stupid and self-defeating immigration policy. We know how much we need those highly qualified professionals here in Wales. So far, your party has resisted our calls for Welsh Government to seek to issue its own visas based on our workforce needs, and I wonder, in the light of what you said today, Minister, whether you would consider looking at this again. Thank you.  

Thank you. A large number of questions that I very much welcome from Helen Mary Jones on behalf of Plaid Cymru. I just want to say, in terms of the engagement and co-production and extensive consultation, that 150 people seeking sanctuary engaged with us during the development of the plan. But obviously, I've mentioned that the coalition of organisations on the Wales Strategic Migration Partnership, the Welsh Refugee Coalition and local authorities are very much engaged following the committee's report. Because in 'I used to be someone' the committee said we must seek the views of refugees and asylum seekers, and that's what we've sought to do.

Your points about issues around housing are very important, particularly because that is where the UK Government has clear responsibility. And we have sought to work closely with the UK Government in terms of new asylum accommodation and support contracts but, unfortunately, I have to say many of our recommendations appear to have been rejected. And you will know, I'm sure, that there's been a recent report by the independent chief inspector of borders and immigration identifying that 18.6 per cent of inspected asylum properties in Wales and the south-west were uninhabitable or unsafe. So, in terms of your call to scrutinise on those points—which, of course, I will take back and raise with the UK Government, because, too often, people are forced to occupy substandard housing, or aren't permitted to access accommodation at all. That is totally counter to our aims in terms of the nation of sanctuary.

But I have mentioned already that we are doing more to support the Refugee Well Housing project, and we're repeatedly asking—and thank you again for your support for this—the UK Government to extend the move-on period to 56 days, because that aligns it with other homelessness support, both in England and Wales. But so far, the UK Government has refused to adopt our recommendations. These do not help in terms of the fact that there is a feeling of negativity, even though there are many ways in which we are gaining respect, as you've seen from the UN high commissioner in terms of the way that we're using the powers and skills that we have, recognising the assets of people who come and how they will enhance our Welsh communities, and how we've welcomed them, and counteracting the negative perceptions that, of course, are so unhelpful.

I said in my statement that it's a very challenging climate for refugees and asylum seekers. Indeed, because of the political discourse, the media has a role to play as well as Government policies. I think we have to go back again, I'm afraid, to some of the statements and legislative changes that have led to the hostile environment policies, which, unfortunately, are being implemented, and they are contained, of course, in the Immigration Act 2014. It's now referred to as 'compliant environment policy', but this was about measures to identify and reduce the number of immigrants in the UK. I know that the House of Commons Home Affairs Committee has addressed this.  

Finally, I will make the point about bullying, because this is an issue where, again, with the education Minister, our vision, obviously, is to tackle bullying holistically, addressing the root causes, including those from asylum seeking and refugee families. What's great about the Cardiff City of Sanctuary is that I believe that, now, organisations are getting accreditation. I think even Lisvane comprehensive school—my colleague from Cardiff North. Others are getting that kind of recognition. Schools need to be part of it.

And just on your final point about doctors and refusals of visas, I'm very proud of the fact that, in Wales, we have overcome many obstacles for refugee doctors—and I said that in my statement—to come and work, since I was health Minister, to ensure that we now have a large number of refugee doctors who, actually, have been accepted by the General Medical Council and are now practicing throughout the UK.

I'll try and be really rapid here. First of all, can I just welcome the ambition and also the spirit of this statement, and also the work of the committee, which I've now become a member of, and their previous report, 'I used to be someone', which has provided a foundation for some of this? I welcome this because it recognises those who are seeking sanctuary, those who are refugees, as an asset, as a gift, not a burden. Not as people as individuals that we have to begrudgingly or reluctantly take under our wing, but actually that we see their capabilities and what they can give to us as well. Would she agree with me that, actually, some of the best examples of what we're doing in Wales, in individual communities, can show us the way?

I spoke last year, in June, in Ystradgynlais, in the miners' welfare hall there, as part of the Josef Herman Foundation and a collaboration with a film unit there where they'd worked to tell the life story of Josef Herman, who fled the persecution of Nazi occupation of Poland in the second world war to that Welsh Valley community, knowing nobody. He settled there, he was invited there, he is now one of the most renowned Welsh-Polish artists with his artistry on display in the national gallery and elsewhere as well, and the foundation. But it was told by Syrian refugee children—they were the ones who told the story. And that community had once again opened its arms. The south Wales Valleys community had opened its arms to say, 'We not only welcome you, we welcome you and the gifts that you bring and what you contribute to us as well.' And that's what I like about this statement; it's the spirit as well as the practical implementation as well.

Would she agree with me that, as well as taking forward working with the UK Government, which I think we need to do—would she commit to actually highlighting where they need to do signally better as well? Not only in terms of accommodation standards and the hostile environment that we've talked about, but things like the Dubs amendment for children refugees and asylum seekers. We need to point out as well where they're failing if we are to be a welcoming UK as well as a welcoming Wales.

The sanctuary website has been mentioned. Could I just ask for clarity on when that will be up and running? Because that will be very useful indeed. And can I just finally say, then, Dirprwy Llywydd, that I also welcome it because it's not complacent? It recognises that this a big step forward but there is more work to be done. It's not complacent. In which case, where are our next steps, where could she guide us to say, both at a Wales level, but also in local communities, local authorities, third sector, and other partners—where should we be looking to do more to become this welcoming nation that recognises these people for the gift that they bring to Wales and the gift they bring to our communities?

I'd like to thank Huw Irranca-Davies for his questions and for reporting on his experience, and particularly that experience with the Joseph Herman Foundation. I think the miners' welfare hall in Ystradgynlais and the fact that all over Wales, as you know, there are communities welcoming Syrian refugees—it's transforming communities as well as transforming lives for those refugees.

I just want to say, on the Dubs amendment, that our latest statistics show that Welsh local authorities are supporting 105 unaccompanied children seeking sanctuary, including a small number that have been resettled via the Dubs amendment. But we have called on the UK Government—. We've objected to the fact that the UK Government closed the Dubs scheme in 2017 because we know that legal routes to safety are crucial for these children and we'd like to do more. Again, it goes back to the UK Government to provide us with the funding for local authorities, because they also would like to do more in terms of ensuring those placements and support.

And we have a guardianship scheme, which is developing. That's a new development, which, of course, again, we're supporting across Wales for unaccompanied children. The sanctuary website will be launched early this year. It's a new site. It's separate from the Welsh Government website. It's English and Welsh, but we will have text-to-speech software in terms of accessibility in many different languages. This is a really important point. Sanctuary is an online resource to support refugees and asylum seekers.

When I met with the Chair of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee, John Griffiths, he challenged me, he said, 'You can say all these things, and you can agree that you'll support recommendations, but you've actually got to deliver on them.' I think he's going to be asking me that now. It's absolutely clear what we're up against, but we have to recognise this, as you say, as an opportunity and recognise the assets and the gifts that we have from those we welcome into Wales, which must truly be a nation of sanctuary.

Thank you for your statement, Deputy Minister. I welcome the statement and completely agree that we should make sure that Wales is indeed a nation of sanctuary for those who need it. As a comparatively prosperous nation, we have a moral obligation to offer sanctuary to those fleeing persecution or war, and we must do all we can to increase our capability to do so and to offer everyone here, whether citizen, migrant, asylum seeker or refugee, a high quality of life. We cannot and should not turn our backs on our fellow citizens and human beings when they need us, and I'm sure everyone here agrees with that.

In March last year, the then leader of the house said

'I'm proud of the response that Welsh communities and public authorities have made since our last refugee and asylum seeker plan was published in 2016.' 

But how can your Government have been proud of the fact that two of the local authorities didn't accept a single refugee, not a single one, for resettlement in the previous year? Is that really something your Government should be proud of, Deputy Minister? That same year, as a contrast, the then UKIP-controlled Thanet council committed to resettling eight refugee families, more than almost every local authority in Labour-controlled Wales. So, my question to you, Deputy Minister, would be: what does Welsh Government intend to do to redress this imbalance, apart from publishing another plan?

As I said, I believe we have a moral obligation to assist those fleeing persecution and war, but resources are finite, and everyone needs to remember that, for every economic migrant who takes a place in housing, school, hospital and so on, that is one fewer place for a person with nothing, who is fleeing persecution or war, perhaps in fear for their life. This Welsh Government can claim until the cows come home that it wants immigration for reasons of fairness, but in truth it is for cynical economic reasons. It wants freedom of movement because it helps compress wages, meaning that, for many, the minimum wage has become the maximum available wage. Well, I happen to think that when it comes to who should be able to come into Wales, it should be about more than what is good for the profits of big business. We cannot have open-door economic migration and fulfil the ambitions, the very, very, very good ambitions, set out in the Deputy Minister's statement. You can't have both, Deputy Minister.

If we were to limit the number of economic migrants, we could accept more refugees and asylum seekers, without causing a strain on our already breaking NHS, long housing lists and school place shortages. In short, we could help more asylum seekers and refugees if we could control economic migration. For all the talk of what a caring nation we are, in 2017, the last year I have been able to find figures for, Wales only took in 325 refugees, compared with the thousands of EU economic migrants we had to house who use our NHS and other public services. Were we not forced to take EU migrants, all coming from safe countries, I should add, who decide they want to turn up here, we could take in more refugees who need a safe place for themselves and their families.

It doesn't appear to me that Welsh Labour care much at all, when Labour-controlled Wales has only settled such a small number of refugees but continues to campaign for the freedom of movement that leads to councils only being able to take in very limited numbers of refugees and asylum seekers. You cannot expect to be believed when you say you care about asylum seekers whilst all the time being in favour of total freedom of movement from the EU, simply because you think it benefits our economy, when that is causing us to control the number of refugees we accept. As I have already said, we have finite resources, and so the question arises: who do we prioritise? Asylum seekers or economic migrants? Minister, I would prioritise—well, Deputy Minister, sorry—I would prioritise asylum seekers and refugees over economic migrants any day of the week. And that is why I'm asking you to admit that if we want to maintain public services that perform for everyone in Wales, whether citizens or migrants, we have to agree to control economic migration so we can prioritise the refugees and asylum seekers who need us to offer sanctuary and so that we can ensure that that sanctuary's stable and well resourced.

So, my last question is, Deputy Minister: would you be prepared to control immigration by those who simply want to come here so that we can increase and give a better life than we do at the moment to those who need to come here? Thank you. Just answer the question.

Well, I think, you know, you started in a promising way but I'm afraid that didn't last very long. And I just want to say something about the kind of remarks that you make and what it means in terms of response in our communities. In the month following the EU referendum, there was a 72 per cent increase in referrals to the Welsh Government-funded National Hate Crime Report and Support Centre precisely because of the kind of ill-founded views that were coming from those who espouse those views. That spike included a rise across all types of hate crime, and if we look, then, at the opportunities that we have to drive out that kind of hate crime, it has to look towards the spirit of the 'Nation of Sanctuary' plan, which, of course, is a plan for all of those who work and make a contribution in this country: for the doctors, for the nurses, for those who work in our care homes, those who work in agriculture; those are the people who we support and they are part of our community and our nation. And it's very disappointing that you choose to bring these ill-informed views that can then lead to that spike in hate crime that we so abhor in this Chamber.

I want to tell you a very short story about my father who was born and brought up in Llanbrynmair and who was called up to fight in the second world war and found himself imprisoned in Stalag 22 for four years and managed to escape from Poland to Scotland. He only was able to do that because he had the help and kindness of strangers in a strange land. He continued all his life and was out there to fight and help retain peace and understanding rather than the promotion of hate and ignorance. And as a consequence of that, he also remained a huge supporter of the European Union that was founded on those very principles of peace and understanding.

We have heard today that there are many, many Syrian refugees in this country, and they are here, equally, because of the consequences of war. We, rightly, make those people welcome. But the issue that I would like to raise here today is that in welcoming those individuals, we do recognise, and we have, in this statement today, the unaccompanied minors. I'm really, really pleased that we in Wales are giving some guardianship support and service to those individuals, because I don't know how many people here in this room would understand how very difficult it is to tell and retell your story about how you've ended up in a country completely traumatised.

I know that my father would understand that, because he couldn't talk about it. So, we need to keep those people, those children safe. The closure of the Dubs scheme is absolutely scandalous because it was, particularly, to keep identified children at the source, where they were identified as being in danger, to travel to safety. I cannot understand how anybody could close a scheme that he himself has identified as being alive today as a consequence of. That only leaves the gates open to human traffickers, and to those young people ending up in slavery. And there's plenty of evidence to support that that is exactly what happens. There's also plenty of evidence to support the fact that unaccompanied minors who end up in the care system are actually going missing. And there's plenty of evidence, also, that supports the fact that, of the young females who find themselves going missing, 86 per cent of them end up in the sex trade.

I want to thank Joyce Watson for that very moving and personal account. It's an account I haven't heard before and I don't think, possibly, those in this Chamber have heard it. It's an account that is on the record about your father's experience. It says everything that we want to do to address and to enable us, in tribute to the memory of what he himself has stood up for—. And you are the product, Joyce, and you're here, I'm sure, because of him. 

It's important that you mentioned the Dubs scheme, because it did actually offer a very small but very crucially important signal that, actually, in the UK, we care deeply about the plight of these children, and there was such a strength of feeling when the decision was made by the UK Government to close the scheme. We need to go back to reopening that scheme, to calling for that scheme to be reopened, but we can do things in Wales, and that's why we have responded to the committee inquiry recommendation, as I said, to develop this guardianship service for unaccompanied asylum seeking children.

And the 'Nation of Sanctuary' plan does innclude this action. It's going to fund local authorities this year, it's going to support a pilot measure in respect of guardianship and it does aim to establish the legal needs of those unaccompanied asylum seeking children and explore the demand for a guardianship service and what such a service should look like. And we have already agreed funding; we've provided £550 million over the past two years to assist local authority social services, funding placements, social work training and foster care training. So, this is a very important outcome of the committee's work and of our consultation with those in the Welsh Refugee Coalition to lead us to this point.

Thank you. I will call the Chair of the committee, John Griffiths, seeing as his report has been mentioned several times, but, John, can you just ask a couple of questions, or a question, really? Thank you.

Yes, certainly, Dirprwy Lywydd. I very much welcome your statement today and the action plan, Deputy Minister, and I think the 'Nation of Sanctuary' is very welcome as a title, because I think it's indicative of the ambition of Welsh Government to drive progress in providing a welcome and the support and services that asylum seekers and refugees need.

Just to pick up on what you said earlier, I would ask that the sort of detail around monitoring and evaluation, indicators, time frames for delivery of actions, identified funding and lead responsibility is set out in as much detail as possible for all of the actions, because I think that's an essential discipline in ensuring delivery. I'd also like to know what sort of update you might be able to provide, Deputy Minister, in terms of the refresh of the community cohesion plan, the way that we can develop adequate relationships with the media to address those issues that have been identified, and whether the assessment of the impact of right-to-rent checks has been done. And finally, whether funding for the guardianship pilot will be available to all local authorities in Wales.

I thank you very much for those questions, John Griffiths. It's thanks to you and your committee that we are here with a refreshed plan on sanctuary in Wales. I hope you will agree with the way we've laid out the plan—the actions and who is responsible, and that includes the divisions of the Welsh Government and other partners that are clearly laid out in the plan. I expect to be rigorously monitored on this plan, as will I expect the Welsh Refugee Coalition to monitor me on it, as well. But it is across the Government that delivery has to be made by, of course, Ministers, and it will be clearly monitored, I know, by your committee. You raise an issue about the community cohesion programme: we're working to a national community cohesion programme. It's already been developed, as I'm sure you're aware. We're putting it out for consultation for a refresh, and we've continued to fund our network of community cohesion co-ordinators across Wales. And, of course, that's crucial in terms of some of the issues that have been raised in the response to this statement today: the very real threat to people in terms of cohesion and also the key issues that have come out of this very challenging climate that we have for refugees and asylum seekers. We can't be complacent about the fact that although we may, in this Chamber, the majority of us, be espousing and supporting and driving actions, the challenge to this is real and deep, as we have already heard today.

I think the funding that's available for the guardianship scheme and unaccompanied asylum-seeker children scheme is going to be made available to all of the local authorities, but, obviously, we need their co-operation in terms of housing.

And your final point: we are particularly looking at what we can do within our powers in terms of housing, and looking at issues, particularly, for example, around the Rent Smart Wales code of practice. I mean, that's crucial in terms of how we can protect many asylum seekers and refugees and to make sure that where people are rehoused, they're with fit and proper people to be granted a licence. And that's particularly key in terms of exploitation, but we will continue to press with the UK Government in terms of better contracts and for them to accept our recommendations in terms of those contracts in terms of asylum accommodation.

Thank you very much, Deputy Minister. The Adult Placement (Service Providers and Responsible Individuals) (Wales) Regulations 2019, the Regulated Advocacy Services (Service Providers and Responsible Individuals) (Wales) Regulations 2019, and the Regulated Fostering Services (Service Providers and Responsible Individuals) (Wales) Regulations 2019—in accordance with Standing Order 12.24, I propose that the following three motions under the items 6, 7 and 8 on our agenda are grouped for debate. Does any Member object? No. 

Therefore, I call on the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services to move the motions. Julie Morgan. 

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I move the motions.

The Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Bill was passed unanimously three years ago. Through phased implementation of the Act, we're establishing a new system of regulation and inspection of social care providers that is robust, streamlined and citizen-focused. The new system better enables Care Inspectorate Wales to take an overview of the whole service, makes registration with the inspectorate easier, and supports citizens to access key information when choosing their care and support. Furthermore, it seeks to ensure that regulated services provided in Wales will be registered and inspected in Wales.

Ensuring consistency in the requirements on regulated services under the Act has been one of our main policy objectives. Therefore, where possible, the requirements on providers and responsible individuals of adult placement, advocacy and fostering services through these regulations before us today equate with those approved by this Assembly and brought into force at phase 2.

But we have been mindful that each service has its own distinct attributes and should be regulated accordingly. Therefore, we have worked extensively with stakeholders to tailor certain requirements to ensure best fit with how each service is delivered in practice without compromising the overall standards expected. Each of these regulations include core requirements in relation to the governance of the service, the way it is carried out, its staffing, and how it safeguards and supports people. They also secure a focus on outcomes and the well-being of individuals and include matters underpinning quality, safety and improvement. Where providers or responsible individuals fall short, the regulations clearly specify which breaches will or may be treated as an offence. The regulations are supported by statutory guidance, which sets out in greater detail how providers and responsible individuals may comply with the requirements.

The 2016 Act sees the regulation and inspection of advocacy services for the first time. Following consultation at phase 1 and with the support of the sector, we are currently focusing on advocacy arranged by local authorities under their duties to assist children, including looked-after children, and certain care leavers who wish to make representations in relation to their need for care and support. I do believe this is a proportionate first step, presenting an opportunity to learn before considering extension to the wider sector. 

Officials have engaged with key stakeholders from an early stage in the development of these regulations. This has helped identify crucial adjustments to the phase 2 blueprint to make it work in particular services' context. With post-consultation changes and further clarification within the guidance, I believe we have achieved this. An example of this includes changes to the wording of the adult placement regulations to reflect the importance of matching individuals with compatible families, rather than simply arranging a placement. These regulations also now build in the need for providers to require adult placement carers to notify them within 24 hours of any exercise of control and restraint methods. The service provider is then required to make a record of the incident immediately, minimising risk of delay. A similar amendment has been made in respect of fostering services. 

Responding to feedback, the exemption from regulation for a person who provides advocacy to four or fewer persons in a year has been amended so that sibling groups can be considered as a single instance. This now applies whether the provider is an individual or an organisation. The consultation also promoted a change to the duty of candour, removing the requirement to act in an open and transparent way with service commissioners, which consultees felt could be at odds with the primary purpose of advocacy, which is to consider and help represent the views of individuals while ensuring their right to confidentiality. 

There have been a number of key alterations prompted by stakeholders to enhance requirements on providers of regulated fostering services, and these include: expanding requirement to notify relevant parties of any incident of child sexual exploitation to cover criminal exploitation too; requiring providers to include information from their policies and procedures that is relevant to children's needs within the young people's written guide to the service; expanding requirements regarding health and development of children to encompass their physical, mental and emotional health and development; and including express reference to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child's article 31, a right to play, and to pathway plans for young people over 16.

A requirement has also been added for a provider's policy and procedures to ensure adequate oversight of savings that are made on behalf of children, including passing on records at the end of their placement, and this addresses issues that were raised by a recent ombudsman case in Bridgend. Finally, transitional provision has been included within the regulations in respect of service managers registration with social care Wales. For adult placements and fostering, this requirement has been deferred until April 2022 and advocacy until September 2022 in order to provide time for new and existing managers to gain the qualifications to register where these have not already been attained. Thank you very much.

I'd like to thank the Deputy Minister very much for her statement and to ensure her that Plaid Cymru will be supporting, obviously, these regulations today. I just wish to raise with the Deputy Minister one particular use of language in the regulated fostering services regulations. We refer in the regulations to 'foster parents'. The Deputy Minister will be very aware that that is no longer the term that is routinely used in the sector and there are very good reasons for that. Using the term 'foster carer' recognises the professionalism of foster carers, which I know the Deputy Minister is very well aware of. Also, using the term 'foster parents' can also create difficulties particularly for older children, who may still have very strong feelings for their own biological parents—they may be hoping to return, many of them will return—and using the term 'foster parent' can actually put a barrier between the foster carer and the child or young person they're taking care of. It can also be a term that can be confusing for children who eventually end up being adopted, because their foster carer is not actually going to be, very often, their long-term parent. So, I would just like to ask the Deputy Minister to clarify why we are still using a term that I think the sector on the whole, and particularly young people who are care experienced, are not enamoured of, not particularly keen on, and whether it would be possible—it's not a reason, certainly, to oppose these regulations today, but whether it would be possible, going forward, to consider a more appropriate and more contemporary use of language. I suspect that it may be that this is the right language to use in these regulations because it may fall out of the primary legislation, but I do think that it is something that we should be very careful of. Foster carers are not, and are not seeking to be, parents, though they do offer, of course, very often, the kind of love and support that the best parents do.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services to reply.

Thank you very much. And thank you very much to Helen Mary Jones for her contribution to the debate. She's absolutely right—the reason we use the words 'foster parent' is because that is the wording used in the legislation, and so that's why we have to use it in these regulations. But she makes a very important point, and, of course, for young people in particular, they do not see their foster carers as parents, as they have their own parents, and it's often very difficult for them to come to terms with that sort of language. So, I absolutely accept the point that she makes, and I think that is something that the Welsh Government would want to support at other times, when you use that expression. But here we can't do it because it is the legislation. So, with those comments I move the motions.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion under item 6. Does any Member object? Therefore, the motion under item 6 is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The proposal is to agree the motion under item 7. Does any Member object? Therefore, the motion under item 7 is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The proposal is to agree the motion under item 8. Does any Member object? The motion under item 8 is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 9 on the agenda is the debate on the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee's report on Brexit preparedness, and I call on the Chair of that committee to move the motion—David Rees.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Our motion today asks the National Assembly to note our three reports on the Brexit preparedness of three sectors: ports, healthcare and medicines, and food and drink. They follow on from our report last February, which sought clarification on the Welsh Government's preparations for when the UK left the EU.

Last week we received a series of statements from Ministers on the preparations the Welsh Government are making within their portfolios, specifically in relation to a 'no deal' Brexit. This was unprecedented, and reflects the concerns that exist in our communities and public sector bodies regarding how there would be business and service continuity upon exiting the EU. It is our committee's hope that today will offer an opportunity to debate some of those issues.

These reports lay out, in no uncertain terms, the risk to these three sectors of various Brexit scenarios. And before anyone gets up and says, 'Here we go, project fear again', the committee's reports are based upon evidence received from experts and stakeholders, and that is the basis for our conclusions.

After the rejection of the withdrawal agreement and the political declaration a fortnight ago, it is not alarmist to actually say that we are now facing the real possibility of leaving the European Union without a deal. Now, I appreciate that we are still awaiting the outcome of today's votes in Westminster, which may lead to a deal being agreed together with a political declaration that works for the Welsh economy and Welsh citizens, but we cannot fail to repeat that now-infamous saying, 'The clock is ticking', and we are fast approaching the midnight hour. In fact, if you read the front of our report, the opening lines say:

'With less than five months until the UK leaves the European Union'—

today, it is two months before we leave the European Union. Time is moving on.

Now, leaving without a deal is something that our committee has consistently warned against. it is neither necessary nor desirable to sever the ties with Europe in such a disorderly and potentially chaotic way. So, before turning to the content of the reports in detail, it might be worth reminding this Chamber of what we mean by a 'no deal' Brexit, and I'll try and simplify it as much as possible.

Leaving with no deal would see decades of co-operation with the European Union come to an abrupt end. It would have far-reaching consequences for many aspects of life in Wales. In trade terms, it would mean that we erect a myriad of new barriers to trade where none currently exist—everything from new taxes on imports and exports to new checks and barriers at the border. We could lose access to EU agencies and programmes, something that we have been benefiting from for a long time. The clear and overwhelming message that we have received from stakeholders during our time considering these issues has been that 'no deal' should be avoided.

Llywydd, I will now turn to our three reports in a little bit more detail. The reports being debated today look in depth at some of the issues faced by three sectors—three sectors that are important to the Welsh economy. They also build upon previous reports of the committee. Whilst it would not be possible to consider all of the issues in the time available to me today, I would encourage Members from across the Chamber to study them carefully if you haven't already done so.

Our follow-up report on the implications of Brexit for ports revisits some of the issues we first brought to the attention of the National Assembly in August 2017. We took evidence from stakeholders involved in running Welsh ports, from hauliers, together with representatives from the aviation and tourism sectors. It's worth noting that not only do Welsh ports perform an important function in our modern economy, they actually also support over 18,000 jobs in Wales.

The fundamental issue at Wales's major roll-on, roll-off ports is this: they lack the physical capacity and infrastructure to accommodate new customs and border checks, together with the parking requirements that would be entailed in all of that. That's why we call upon the Welsh Government to publish its contingency plans for managing traffic at Welsh ports should new delays and checks become necessary after 29 March 2019.

While I appreciate that the Welsh Government believes that there may be some aspects of commercial sensitivity in doing this, I welcome subsequent assurances given to me by the Minister for Economy and Transport on this matter. However, it would be helpful if the Government could share this information with us on a confidential basis.

On 'no deal', we heard from port operators and hauliers that a transition period was essential as we leave the EU. In particular, the Road Haulage Association told us that

'UK and EU road hauliers, the majority of their customers and officialdom are not, and will not be, ready for a "no deal", "no transition" scenario.'

They also told us that

'current preparations are insufficient to avoid catastrophic disruption to supply chains'

in such a scenario.

We noted this in our report about the proposals for future customs arrangements if we have an orderly Brexit. Widely-held concerns remain about the timescales for transitioning to any new system. We also note the difficulties that may be faced by exporters if they have to operate two complicated sets of systems after Brexit. It is helpful in that regard that the Welsh Government is working with key sectors of the economy to build that resilience.

I also welcome the contribution by the Minister for Economy and Transport last week, which reminded us all of the challenges in gaining heavy goods vehicle permits for Welsh businesses and the impact that might have on our indigenous companies. A simple matter that we all take for granted—that we can transport our goods across Europe without any difficulty—is now one that 'no deal' could severely damage.

Llywydd, our report on the healthcare and medicines sector heard wide-ranging concerns from health sector organisations. These included the implications of Brexit for the continued supply of medicines, access to clinical trials and maintenance of the health and social care workforce. One of the concerns raised with us was around the lack of communication and continuing uncertainty with regard to Brexit. Although much uncertainty remains, the increase in communication with front-line staff, as outlined in the Welsh Government's response to the committee's report, is welcomed, and I thank the Minister for Health and Social Services for his contribution last week.

In terms of the supply of medicines, the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry told us that

‘the number one ask is for a deal with regulatory co-operation and frictionless trade and movement across borders.'

We heard that 45 million patient packs of medicine move from the UK to the EU every month, with 37 million packs moving in the other direction. Before someone says that they need us more than we need them, they are different medicines and they have different needs, so it's not as easy or straightforward as people think.

In our recommendation 2, we called for the Welsh Government to share details with us of work under way to ensure continuity of supply. It is reassuring to see in the Minister's response a level of detail in terms of progressing with these arrangements.

Llywydd, when looking at the implications of Brexit for healthcare and medicines, it has been the well-being of patients that has been at the forefront of our minds. In particular, our membership of the EU currently gives Wales access to the very cutting edge in medical research and clinical trials. If the steady progress that we have made in improving the lives and health of our people is to continue after Brexit, it is vital that we secure close regulatory co-operation in the field of healthcare and medicines.

I welcome the steps being taken by the Welsh Government to work with counterparts in the Department of Health and Social Care in Westminster, as outlined in the Minister’s response. However, we do need more certainty from Government at both ends of the M4, and perhaps the Minister can address this in his contribution to the debate today, and I do refer to the Minister for Brexit in that scenario. 

A final issue in relation to the impact of Brexit on healthcare in Wales relates to the health and social care workforce. It's been discussed in many committees, that issue. In its evidence the British Medical Association Cymru told us that approximately 6.5 per cent of doctors currently working in Wales are from the European Economic Area. However, in terms of the wider workforce, we heard that a lack of robust data, particularly in relation to the social care and allied health professionals, is hampering efforts to prepare for Brexit. I am aware that there's been a briefing from the NHS Confederation that gives a bit more figures but the actual robust data is not there as such yet. As a committee we welcome the research work currently under way to assess the scale of the challenge and look forward to its publication in the coming weeks.

Our third and final report looked at the potential implications of Brexit on the food and drink sector in Wales, something which was brought to the fore yesterday by several major companies highlighting the concerns they had if we left without a deal. The key message to us in our inquiry was that to leave the EU without a deal that secures frictionless access to the single market could be potentially disastrous for the sector in Wales. We heard that around two thirds of Welsh food and drink exports currently go to the European Union and that, in 2016, the total value of exports was around £335 million.

Trading on World Trade Organization terms in the event of a 'no deal' would be particularly damaging for the red meat industry in Wales. It would see considerable new taxes placed on the export of red meat to our nearest neighbours, who currently account for about 90 per cent of all our red meat exports. Furthermore, we heard that it would be very difficult to replace the European market with trade to the rest of the world in the short term. It will take a concerted effort over a number of years for rest of the world markets to mature, and the committee welcomes the work currently being undertaken by the Welsh Government in that regard, but it is a longer term solution.

Finally, in terms of the food and drinks sector in Wales, we heard about the EU’s protected food names scheme, which currently gives 15 Welsh products legal protections against imitation. They include Welsh lamb, beef, Anglesey sea salt and Pembrokeshire earlies, just to name a few. It's vitally important that protected status for Welsh food and drink products is secured after Brexit and I welcome the way in which all Governments of the UK are working collaboratively on a successor scheme.

It is vital, with the level of change that we're about to see in the agriculture and food sectors as a result of Brexit, that this Assembly also has ample opportunity to scrutinise policy proposals in detail. I'm sure all Ministers will reflect upon this going forward, so that we are able as a legislature to actually scrutinise the policies that come forward to us.

Llywydd, it's important that we raise this awareness today in our national forum. As you will be aware, Brexit is a complicated issue that affects many aspects of our national life. I commend these reports to the National Assembly for Wales and look forward to other Members' contributions today and will respond accordingly.

Can I start by thanking our Chairman, David Rees, for the way he's led the committee? I think he's done so with great alacrity. This is very pressing and serious work and I do appreciate the way you've chaired our meetings and sought to draw out a consensus amongst committee members. But the first thing to emphasise is that, if we leave the EU without a transitionary period, then the disruption is likely to be severe, at least in the areas we are identifying, and potentially we run considerable risks, and indeed it appears that some of those risks are heavier in Wales than they are in other parts of the UK. So, this is very, very serious work indeed and I'm really, really—one thing that gives me encouragement is that we've been so led in it and backed by a wonderful secretariat in terms of producing and helping us produce these reports. 

I also want to commend broadly the Welsh Government for taking, I think, quite a responsible attitude in trying to seek out all the practical ways that it can liaise with the UK Government to ensure that a range of contingencies are prepared. I do welcome this. I think it is a mature approach.

I want to refer just to some of the concerns that have already been raised by our Chair, but let me amplify a couple of them. In terms of the ports, we do need to know more about Welsh Government planning to cope with traffic-related issues, particularly at Holyhead. Now, the UK Government has started to do this in terms of the channel ports in particular. So, the commercial sensitivities, I'm not so sure that they are that pressing, and, anyway, the biggest need is for us to get some information and communication out there. So, I do hope this can be readdressed. An issue for the UK Government that the Welsh Government can put pressure on is the capacity at the moment at our ports to deal with the changes in the regulatory regimes that may apply very, very quickly. This is a great worry for the stakeholders and I think, again, we need some reassurance. 

In terms of healthcare, as has been mentioned, the issue of the number of medicines that come into Britain and the number that go across to Europe is really quite substantial. And this, again, requires very careful co-ordination, particularly around those that perish quickly, like insulin. This was emphasised to us. I know there's an ongoing challenge about warehousing. We were already quite close to capacity in some respects as far as I understand, especially over the ones that require careful storage. These medicines are often required by the most vulnerable in society, so there's an issue there.

The staffing implications are really important. I won't repeat them, other than to say I think the Welsh Government is hoping to report on this specifically about staffing in social and healthcare, and expecting to report sometime in March. I do hope it's able to report as early as possible. I do realise you don't yet know the actual situation we'll be facing, but it's very important that we get some clear information and, again, that that is communicated.

Finally, on food and drink, if we could have some update on the food supply issue of Tesco's announcement that they were concerned. I think this just emphasises the whole issue of leaving the European Community after 40 years, whatever your views are about it. Trading and economic patterns are very set. We've been Europeanised substantially. We have globalisation over this. The supply chains are incredibly intricate, and we do need to bear that in mind, and it will be inevitably disruptive if those are broken without a deal and a transitionary period.

Finally, I do think we now have to spell out what is likely to happen to lamb if we don't have a deal. We will face a 43 per cent tariff. That's the best scenario. We could be in a worse situation than that. We will lose our markets overnight in Europe. Many of the countries there will start to produce more lamb. Now, that will take them a little while, but New Zealand only uses half its quota at the moment in the European market. There's every chance that the slack created by Welsh lamb becoming too expensive could then go to a competitor, and this could devastate our industry. I think it's time that everyone in this Chamber really stood up and addressed these home truths and recognised them, because to see the backbone of our livestock industry devastated would be astonishing. Many of us in the Chamber remember the Chernobyl episode and what that did to much of our lamb production, particularly in north Wales. To see that redoubled and magnified is really quite a shocking prospect, and that's why we need a deal.

I lose count of how many times warnings have been sounded in this Chamber about the real uncertainties that face us from any kind of Brexit, and the huge risks that are in front of us should there be a very hard or even a 'no deal' departure from the European Union. It's important that we remember the context in which this debate takes place today and what is happening down the M4 in the Houses of Parliament, and we should always strive, however unlikely it feels at times, to hope that our message and our concerns here in this national Parliament of ours are heard by those making decisions in Westminster and in Whitehall.

It's no secret that I was among the half of the population that wished to remain in the European Union. It is no secret that I am a proud supporter of the value of membership of the European Union to Wales—the value to a small nation of being a part of European networks. I want Wales, as you know, to be an independent nation within wider networks: the European Union a new British union, perhaps, a Celtic union—who knows? So, any departure to me was against the Welsh national interest. And we, I regret—and I take my part of the blame for it—failed to emphasise that enough in what was, in effect, a very English referendum, rather than a British one. Scotland and Northern Ireland, I think, tell us that, and I have little doubt that now we would have a different result in Wales now that we have had time to discuss the specifically Welsh implications. But the referendum took place nearly three years ago. 

But now to be in a position where we are facing the most damaging Brexit possible is to be in a position where everyone will bear the brunt, wherever they are in the UK, although I fear that Wales would be amongst the hardest hit. Pseudo-British imperialists will revel no doubt in a perverse pursuit of splendid isolation, where real isolation is one which can only limit opportunities for the impoverished, for the enterprising, for the young, for business, for agriculture, for our public services, for tolerance, for international co-operation—the list is far longer than the Llywydd would allow me to run through comprehensively time wise. 

But today we note three reports sounding more warnings—three reports by the external affairs committee. The Chair has already eloquently reminded us of some of the warnings that committee sounded on the effects of Brexit on ports, on health, and on the food and drink sector in Wales. The Government has accepted the many recommendations made for preparatory work needed, and I'm pleased they have been accepted. But, of course, preparation simply cannot be done adequately, not even given all the time in the world, let along the eight weeks that we have left, to put us in a position where we could look forward, realistically, to being on an equal footing post hard or 'no deal' Brexit as we are on now.

We are dealing today, of course, with the legacy of decisions taken following that referendum in 2016, namely the decision to trigger article 50 so quickly, setting a date for departing from the European Union—a date with destiny without a clue about what destiny we were really even seeking. And I'm very proud that my Plaid Cymru colleagues in Westminster voted against the triggering of article 50 then, and perhaps history can judge if Labour and the Conservatives were right to hurry, as happened, to trigger that. But, it's clear to me and my colleagues—we want that date put back. I want article 50 delayed, to buy time, perhaps to seek a less damaging Brexit, perhaps taking into account some of the warnings that have been sounded again in these three reports by this Assembly committee. But it would be time even better spent, in our opinion, to ask the people again if this is what they, and people like my eldest daughter—a passionate European who has become eligible to vote since that referendum—still really want.  

I'm going to focus on one of the three reports, but before I do, as somebody who's recently joined the committee, can I just commend the work that the committee has done on these three reports and the thoroughness of them, and the fact that they deal with facts very directly? It isn't unnecessary scare stories or fear; it's purely what the scenarios look like, particularly with no deal, but even on a managed Brexit withdrawal, and what we need to do. But it is a stark reminder of what we are facing.

Just to pick up on David's point about sheep and lamb within Wales, we often think of those pastoral idylls in mid Wales or north Wales—light lamb and so on—but, of course, colleagues here who sit on these benches who represent the south Wales Valleys, like my own—. They wouldn't be massively dissimilar to my own. Forty per cent of the territorial area of my constituency is upland hill farm. Those farmers traditionally actually survived by not simply doing hill farming but by being the haulage company, being the scaffolder or running the bakery. That's the only way they've been able to do it. They know very much what the risks are now of cutting off the ties of non-tariff access into Europe, regardless, I have to say, of the wider potential that there is, because we have links now out into middle eastern countries, out into Dubai, Qatar and so on. And just one point on that: it's based on the gold standard of our produce—the high animal welfare standards, the high slaughter standards that we have. So, one thing that we do need to do in preparing for Brexit is to make sure that in no way do we compromise those standards, because, curiously, what has been previously criticised as the gold standard, gold-plating our regulations and the way we do it, is actually that very standard why our export markets do have the potential to grow even after Brexit and withdrawal. But we cannot lose that European market because then we'll end up back in the situation where, in the south Wales Valleys, you will have farmers on their uppers. You will have abandoned upland hill farming in south Wales, and that is not only economically important, it is culturally important as well.

But I want to turn to this very good report on the preparedness of the food and drink sector in Wales. It opens by making the point that we cannot repeat too often: every one of us, in our constituencies, one of the biggest employers, both in manufacturing and primary food production is food, whether they are doing tinfoil plates and packaging for aeroplanes or whether they are farmers or whatever—it's food production and manufacturing.

But I want to pick up a couple of specific points in here, and I welcome the fact that the Government accepted all the recommendations that came through in this report on food. First of all, do we have, Minister, any confidence that we will have trade deals signed off by the time we get to 31 March? We're still waiting to see. We hope that we will have trade deals in place. We are told that pens are poised and that lots of preparation has gone on, but we haven't seen anything yet. Does he know that we have any deals ready to go?

Can I ask about the role of the Wales offices overseas and the presence in consulates and embassies? Because those potential export markets are going to rely on some very good, fast-footed work out there and the soft diplomacy as well as the deals that might be negotiated. So, what will be the roles of our Welsh Government personnel but also working alongside UK colleagues as well?

I mentioned the threat of lower standards for imports, but there's also the threat, as David mentioned as well, of dumping. This has long been a threat that we would suddenly find ourselves forced into a compromise situation where we had to, in order to keep food on the shelves, basically accept whatever was available. We cannot do that; we simply cannot do that. But it is a hard reality of something that is now facing us.

Can I also turn to the issue of protected status foods? I welcome very much the work that has been done around UK geographical indication schemes after Brexit, the collaboration that's being done to look at that and the reciprocity with the EU. So, that is being done on the basis of: if we bring forward our protected food names then we will of course welcome EU food names, some of which we have already. But my question on that, Minister, would be: what are our thoughts on whether we can actually accelerate now the number of food products that are from Wales that come under the new or existing protected foods names? Because we have had some good successes, but we have been very slow in getting the volume of products actually up there. So, perhaps we might be able to do more of that and faster.

A couple of points then in terms of the work that's being done to mitigate the effects of a 'no deal' Brexit on the security and continuity of food supplies in Wales. One of those is to do with the food safety and food security issue. It isn't picked up, I don't think, in the report. I'm turning to my colleague on the left, and David's shaking his head. We learnt to our failure within the UK after the horse meat scandal—I'm running out of time. We learnt to our failure about, actually, the importance of multinational security. Horse meat, contaminated horse meat, non-horse meat went through 20 different countries. As we go through Brexit, particularly with a hard deal, are we going to compromise that?

And my final point—final, final, final point; I promise I'll skim through all the rest there—is a recommendation that isn't in there at all. It's been understandably very outward-focusing on what would we do in the case of stepping out from the EU. I would say that one of our recommendations going forward is that we need to build local food networks. When we talk about food security and imports and exports, I get it and it's where we are with Brexit. But part of the resilience, going forward, has got to be to build that local food network where we produce and we sell within our own areas, within our own regions, going forward, as well. Thank you.

Sometimes when I sit here, I don't actually notice that the time has lapsed for the speaker, but it's always useful, then, for the speaker to notice it himself and draw my attention to the fact that he was out of time [Laughter.].

The Counsel General and Brexit Minister to respond to this debate—Jeremy Miles.

Thank you, Llywydd. Before I start, I'd like to thank members of the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee for the three reports looking at the Welsh Government's preparedness for exiting the European Union. I'd also like to thank you for the opportunity to reply to this debate. I'm pleased to say that the Welsh Government, in our formal response, have accepted all of the recommendations in each of the reports.

Of course, the situation in terms of each of these issues changes swiftly, as David Rees mentioned, and I welcome the additional questions and comments that we have heard today. I do not wish to spend time today discussing the appalling way that the UK Government has dealt with the Brexit negotiations and the crisis facing our nation as a result of that; there will be another opportunity to look at that situation tomorrow. But, I do have to say, once again, as I and other Cabinet Members have emphasised time and again, exiting the European Union without a deal will be disastrous, as Rhun ap Iorwerth and others have already mentioned. And at this eleventh hour, we encourage the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom to secure a deal that would benefit Wales and the UK as a whole.

Last week in the Assembly, a whole day of Plenary proceedings was allocated to outline the impacts of a 'no deal' Brexit on various sectors. This shows how significant the dangers for Wales are, in our view, if we do leave the European Union without a deal, and how grave the message is for the UK Government that they must secure a deal. The statements highlighted some of the most grave impacts that could arise from a 'no deal' exit and these can be seen, too, in the reports laid by the committee. I can't lay out the Welsh Government's response to all of the recommendations in the time available, but I can tell you what our response is to the most important issues. Many of the possible impacts of a 'no deal' Brexit stem from delays at borders, and I want to emphasise that the UK Government is entirely responsible for managing the UK's borders. We are working with them to understand and mitigate the impacts on our transport infrastructure, our business and on our people, but we, ourselves, can't decide on customs arrangements.

The UK Government has decided not to put additional checks in place on goods from European Union nations, temporarily at least, if we were to leave without a deal. But this does not guarantee that goods will flow as freely as they currently do. If we do leave without a deal, then Ireland will have to treat goods from the UK as goods from a third country, including all the necessary checks, and that could lead to delays at Welsh ports.

In most of our ports, we would be able to manage the impact of the delays within the space available in the ports themselves, but Holyhead would find it more difficult to cope with this. As the Minister for Economy and Transport said last Tuesday—and I refer Members to his statement on this issue, which could outline matters in more detail than the Government's response to the committee's recommendations, because it could refer to some of the confidentiality issues that applied at the time—although modelling work suggested that it was likely that we could keep the traffic delayed at Holyhead within the port itself, we have developed contingencies in order to have as little effect as possible on the locality. This includes looking at a number of sites that could be used as contingency spaces for lorries if there is delay at the border.

I'm pleased, therefore, to be able to report that we are taking substantive action in this area, and that we are reasonably confident that disruption at our ports will not lead to severe problems on our road network. This does not, however, reduce the risk of border disruption adversely affecting our businesses and our citizens, with potential chaos at Dover a much more serious threat from this perspective. In particular, the potential difficulties at the ports could have an impact on the ability to bring sufficient supply of medicines and medical devices into the country, as the committee has identified in its report on the preparedness of the healthcare and medicines sector in Wales.

The Welsh Government has been clear that a 'no deal' Brexit would cause serious and unavoidable harm to our health and care services. As the Minister for Health and Social Services outlined in Plenary, we have been working closely with the NHS, local authorities and professional and representative bodies to plan and prepare wherever possible, and we've worked with them to understand the risks and how they can be reduced. We've been focusing on ensuring the availability of a supply of medicines, medical devices and clinical consumables in the event of a 'no deal' Brexit. For medicines, again, the principal responsibility lies squarely with the UK Government. But in acknowledgement of the point that David Rees raised, we have been doing, and continue to do, everything we can to ensure that the assurances that UK Ministers are giving about the ability of the buffer requirements placed on pharmaceutical companies, the additional warehousing and alternative transport routes, including air routes for radioisotopes, are well founded. On medical devices and consumables, as the health Minister outlined, we will use UK arrangements where that is the right thing to do, but we are already taking additional steps, including with regard to storage capacity, where we have areas of concern or where we feel we can provide additional certainty in Wales.

Turning to the food and drinks sector, which, as Huw Irranca-Davies noted, is a crucial part of the Welsh economy, and one that could face significant upheaval in the event of leaving without a deal, as the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs indicated in her statement in the Chamber last week, where she addressed the risk to what David Melding referred to very powerfully as 'the backbone of our agricultural sector'. We are supporting food and drink businesses on how to check their readiness and understand the implications for their supply chains for 'no deal' through our Brexit portal and through the business resilience and red meat project, funded through our EU transition fund. Regardless of our strong differences of opinion with the UK Government, we are working closely with them and the other devolved administrations on issues such as the geographical indicators about which Huw Irranca-Davies asked, and, in this context, to ensure there is a UK-wide contingency plan with a view to maintaining food supply to the public in the event even of the worst-case scenarios. And we see how vital this is, given the contents of the letter this week to Members of Parliament from the British Retail Consortium, which David Melding and others referred to. We are in an ongoing process of assurance about the actions under way.

Finally, I would like to acknowledge that the committee's reports all flag the importance of effective communications with the public, businesses and partners. The Welsh Government shares the committee's view, and our website, Paratoi Cymru, is a single, comprehensive source of information for the people of Wales about the actions we are taking to prepare for the significant impact of a 'no deal' Brexit. It sets out guidance and advice for citizens, organisations, and a breadth of sectors across Wales, about the steps that need to be taken to prepare for this outcome, and I would seek your support in this Chamber in ensuring the people of Wales make full use of this resource.

David Rees to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Llywydd. I thank Members for their contributions today and the Counsel General for responding on behalf of the Welsh Government's position. 

David Melding, once again, provided a very thoughtful and sincere contribution, seeking to ensure that we are ready for any outcome, as he has always been within the committee. He's been a very strong voice for the sheep farming industry and Welsh lamb, and he highlighted the concerns about the damage that could do to the Welsh economy as a consequence if we don't get that sorted out. He also pointed out, very clearly, that 'Voids are there to be filled' if we're not careful. He also mentioned one thing that perhaps hasn't else been reflected: warehousing and storage capacity for the medicines. Now, I understand a lot of fridges have been bought up by various companies for storage of those medicines. Now, just as an example—nothing to do with Brexit—but not too long ago, we had a problem with EpiPens, simply because of production faults—nothing to do with Brexit, but production faults—and we could see the consequences on the supply chain and the damages to patients and the difficulties presented to Welsh patients simply because of a shortage of Epi-Pens. Now, if we're not careful, this is going to be expanded beyond just one particular product. So, we need to ensure we address these matters and we prepare for them.

Rhun reminded us of the value of EU membership to Wales—that he presented and he believes in. Many in this Chamber will probably agree with him and there will be others who do not agree with him. That is the nature of our democracy. He also reminded us that we're now facing an unknown destiny and we're not in a position by now—we should actually be better placed now to know what's coming down the road, and we don't. His argument on another referendum, I'm sure, will be discussed tomorrow in another debate, because I'm trying to focus on our reports and to keep to that.

Huw reminded us of the reports, actually, affecting a lot more people than—. People talk about lamb and sheep farming; it isn't just mid Wales, north Wales or west Wales. It's actually upland Valleys communities as well. It's all over Wales: rural, urban, the whole lot. And he also reminded us of the opportunities that we're actually going to have by building resilience in our local food networks and developing those very strongly.

Counsel General, thank you for your responses. You highlighted what was very much said last week and you reminded everyone again that, in fact, the deal is critical and the UK Government also has to address these matters, but we still have to address who would pay the additional cost if we use air routes; who will pay the additional cost of storage and medicines? That's something that needs to be resolved with the UK Government. And there's still much to be resolved in a very, very short space of time, and I really want you to take that message back to the next meeting of the JMC(EN) whenever they do decide to meet again in the future.

Can I also put on record my thanks to the clerking team and the witnesses who gave evidence to the committee? Because without both those groups we wouldn't be able to produce our reports and present Members with the consideration of some of the concerns that we need to address to ensure that Wales and its people are served to the best we can serve them. Brexit has been compared by some to the task of delivering the Olympics. The Institute for Government, however, has gone further and suggested that the continuing uncertainty makes it like delivering an Olympics without knowing the year, the location, or whether it's the summer or winter games. Now, all the governments of the UK, and the EU, therefore, have a difficult task in preparing the whole plethora of organisations and sectors that will, potentially, be affected by Brexit. We hope that by focusing on our work and some of those key sectors that are important to Wales we will be able to raise the issues in the eyes of the Welsh Government and ask the Welsh Government, 'Make sure you prepare for situations—all situations'. We do not know what the outcomes will be. I still don't think we will know tomorrow morning what the outcomes will be, because if the Brady amendment is accepted, we've already been told by the EU and the European Parliament that it doesn't matter because they're not going to change the deal. So, there are deep concerns where we will end up and, therefore, we have to make sure our preparations are solid. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to note the committee's reports. Does any Member object? The motion is, therefore, agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The next item is the motion to suspend Standing Orders 12.20 and 12.22, and that part of Standing Order 11.16 that requires the weekly announcement under Standing Order 11.11, to constitute the timetable for business in Plenary for the following week in order to enable the Government debate on the prospects of a Brexit deal following the House of Commons vote to be held tomorrow. I call on the Trefnydd to move the motion formally. 

Formally moved. 

The proposal is to suspend Standing Orders. Does any Member object? No. The motion is, therefore, agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. 

And that brings today's proceedings to a close.