National Assembly for Wales

I call Members to order.

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Leanne Wood.

Well, the Institute for Fiscal Studies predicts that poverty in Wales will grow significantly as a result of the UK Government's savage benefit cuts. We are investing to grow our economy, to create jobs and support children, through Flying Start, through Families First, through our childcare offer and the pupil development grant.

I'd like to return to the matter of free school dinners, First Minister. Last month, you may remember crowing about the generous offer that you were making, but it is a fact that Wales lags behind the north of Ireland when it comes to school meal provision. There, they've put in place a far more generous earnings limit of £14,000 for families, which is almost double the limit proposed by the Welsh Government. Now, this isn't just a concern for me; the Children's Society are actively campaigning against the harsh limit that you plan to introduce. So, can you tell us how the earnings limit is determined in Wales? Have you examined other earnings limits and, if so, what were they? And, as we move closer to 2020—a year in which Labour in Wales had once promised to eliminate child poverty—why is your Government introducing a policy that is going to make it worse?

Well, there's no evidence at all that it will make it worse. It is a more generous offer than is the case in England. We're providing additional funding of £4 million to local authorities for free school meals via a grant scheme. We're also making an additional £7 million available to local authorities for free school meals in 2019-20. Our most up-to-date analysis suggests that more children will be eligible for free school meals throughout the universal credit roll-out period because of this policy than otherwise would have been the case under the old legacy system. And our transitional protection proposals mean that no child would lose their entitlement to free school meals during the universal credit roll-out period, and beyond, as any existing claimants will continue to be protected until the end of their school phase. And, bear in mind, we have done this despite having no additional funding to manage the impact of the UK Government's welfare reform agenda on free school meals.

First Minister, back in February I raised, under the business statement, the pioneering work of North Lanarkshire Council in Scotland, which looks to provide free school meals for those eligible 365 days a year. Now, there are proven benefits there to pupils not just in terms of health and well-being, but also in academic attainment too. The leader of the house said the Welsh Government would be following this initiative with keen interest. What lessons have you drawn from it to date?

Well, these are issues that are still being examined. Of course, whatever we do is tempered by the funds that are available. And we know that the situation is not going to get better, although I do notice that, having come into this job as austerity started, as I'm about to leave it the Prime Minister's announced that it's over. I won't take it personally. But if it is genuinely the case that austerity is over, then that will mean that more resources will be available in order to provide the kind of services that we would like to provide and that we have, by and large, succeeded in providing despite the iron grip of austerity.

First Minister, the economic action plan states that,

'Good quality jobs and regions that are attractive places in which to live, work and invest, will provide people with a reason to remain or return to work and live in communities where the Welsh language thrives'.

Good education, of course, underpins this ambition, and, while these statements seem aimed at young people who are already in Welsh-speaking communities, being bilingual is an advantage in the workplace and a tool of social mobility as well. So, what success is your Government having in raising the level of Welsh skills in young people who live in communities where Welsh is not a community language?

Well, one of the lessons we've learned is that, despite the fact that Welsh has been compulsory up to the age of 16 in schools since the early 1990s, we cannot say that we have created confident Welsh speakers in English-medium schools as a result, which is why, of course, the curriculum is being reformed, showing that Welsh is a skill—which it is for most people—rather than an academic qualification, and ensuring that people are better able to measure their fluency in the language. For too long we've had an artificial divide between first and second languages, rather than actually measuring the level of someone's fluency. And that is something that will be very much part of the curriculum, to ensure that Welsh teaching is effective and also that Welsh is seen as a subject that is there to be studied as a skill, which I think will enthuse many more young people.

The road safety framework for Wales sets out the actions we and our partners are currently taking to improve road safety in Wales. We are making good progress to achieve the targets set out in the framework and to ensure that all our roads and streets are safe and accessible for all. 

Nonetheless, First Minister, there are still far too many deaths and injuries on our roads, and one important response, which is developing at pace internationally and within the UK, is to increase the amount of 20 mph maximum speed limits in inner urban areas. This makes it easier to avoid accidents, reduces the injury if an accident occurs and allows the streets to be reclaimed from the motor car, which very often is king in our communities at the moment. If we want more children playing, more elderly people feeling at ease in walking around their communities, more walking and cycling with the health and environmental benefits that they bring, then I believe we need to roll out these 20 mph maximum speed limit areas in Wales. One way of doing that would be to have a Wales-wide default 20 mph limit in our inner urban areas, which would allow local authorities then to take forward traffic orders for 30 mph when it was appropriate, in effect reversing the current position, making it easier and less costly for local authorities to have these areas in place, which are so important to community life. First Minister, would you support such a policy to allow communities to reclaim their streets?  

Could I give the Member for Newport East an indication of where we are with 20 mph speed limits? We are working closely with Public Health Wales to review the evidence available as to the benefits of introducing 20 mph speed limits. That will then inform whether we require a refreshment to the current road safety framework. A comprehensive review of speed limits near schools on or near trunk roads has been carried out. There is a multi-year programme to introduce part-time 20 mph limits in those locations. Funding has been provided for local authorities to implement 20 mph zones and limits through the road safety and Safe Routes in Communities grants, and I can also inform him that Dr Adrian Davies has been commissioned to carry out an evidence review on 20 mph limits, which will then be used to inform any future policy development alongside our work with Public Health Wales. So, a great deal of work is being done. We await now, of course, the results of that work. 

First Minister, a few weeks ago, during the business statement, I raised the case of a driver in Newport who defied his optician's advice to stay off the road due to his poor eyesight. He was subsequently the cause of a fatal road accident on the M4. At the moment, it is the responsibility of the driver to advise the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency that they are no longer able to drive. Can I ask the First Minister to look into this issue, with a view to making it mandatory for opticians in Wales to advise the DVLA when a driver's eyesight has deteriorated to such an extent that they are a danger to themselves and other motorists on the road in Wales, please? 

Firstly, the issue isn't devolved. Secondly, I suspect there are some quite serious data protection issues that would need to be overcome if optometrists were told they had to report somebody if their eyesight was not sufficient to enable them to drive. It is the responsibility of an individual to make sure that they are fit to drive. It's the same with their eyesight. It's the same, of course, if somebody has an illness that affects their driving—they are obliged to inform the DVLA. Their insurance might be voided as a result and, of course, they will face charges if they cause an accident in certain circumstances. So, while I understand the need to ensure that people have sufficient eyesight to be able to drive, I think it is a matter of personal responsibility, and not a matter anyway, of course, that's devolved to this Assembly. 

Questions now from the party leaders. The Plaid Cymru leader, Adam Price. 

Thank you, Llywydd. First of all, on behalf of Plaid Cymru, I’d like to extend my sincerest sympathies to the families and friends of those who have lost their lives as a result of the flooding over the weekend, including a constituent of mine, Corey Sharpling from Newcastle Emlyn, and I would welcome a personal commitment from the First Minister that the Government will look in earnest at any lessons that can be learned as a result of these tragic events.

First Minister, can you explain why, when the Labour group voted here a week ago against Plaid Cymru's motion calling for a people's vote on Brexit, two of your Ministers have been pressing the case for such a vote in recent days? Your health Secretary says the 'leave' campaign could have committed fraud. Your skills Minister says Brexit would be a tragedy and seriously damage Wales. Both say they would vote 'remain' in a referendum that should be held on the Brexit deal. Now, I agree with them. The question is: do you, or do you agree with your finance Secretary who declared that a people's vote isn't a policy but a slogan?

May I start by echoing his comments on the tragic news that we heard over the weekend and also extend our deepest condolences on these benches to the family of Corey Sharpling? It happened in his constituency, of course, and it is something that is dreadful for the family and the whole community too. I join with him in those comments.

First of all, our policy is very clear with regard to a second referendum. We have said that a second referendum could only come about in certain circumstances. The first is whether or not there is an agreement at the Westminster Parliament and here and the Scottish Parliament. If there is no such agreement, to my mind there should then be a general election. If the results of that general election are inconclusive, how then do you resolve the issue, other than of course by having another referendum?

I think the Labour Party could be accused of creative ambiguity in relation to its Brexit policy, but I don't think it could be accused of clarity. No more is that ambiguity on show than in the Labour leadership hustings. Reports from the first hustings held last week in the battle to replace you certainly made for interesting reading. Your skills Minister complained about the cuts to adult education. The finance Secretary described your attempts at reorganising local government as having been, as he put it, flawed and a distraction. And your health Secretary admitted that healthcare could have been better reorganised over the nine years that you've been at the helm. It's difficult to disagree with him when he says more of the same is not enough, but, when Vaughan Gething says that what Wales needs is a leader not a manager, is it the finance Minister or you that he has in mind?

Having been here for more than nine years, the people of Wales have shown their confidence in me and my party, and I leave in the knowledge of that confidence. I have no difficulty with candidates bringing ideas forward. That's what they're meant to do. As long as, of course, they don't conflict with established Government policy, then it's absolutely right in a leadership contest that candidates should be free to come forward with ideas of their own. They're not going to say, 'Let's do things exactly as they have been'. They are of course in a position where they need to bring forward fresh ideas, and that's something that I very much welcome. I do welcome the fact that he is following the hustings and the leadership contest within my party with very great interest. I'm sure he will be able to ask questions of my successor when my successor takes over as First Minister. 

Perhaps the biggest criticism made of your Government is that you don't like criticism. It's not just me saying that, but your Cabinet Secretary for local government, Alun Davies—I knew your time would come, Alun—who said this in a lecture to Public Affairs Cymru a few weeks ago:

'All too often I have seen people pull punches and bite lips whilst giving evidence to committees because criticism of Welsh Government or ministers is too difficult for organisations whose funding depends upon the largesse of that same government and those ministers.'

This culture of silence, the Welsh omertà, seems also to extend to the senior civil service. We saw only yesterday the Permanent Secretary refusing to answer questions about public accounts at the Public Accounts Committee. Was this because she was afraid of embarrassing you and your Ministers?

Far from it. I don't know what he's referring to there. I know there was an issue with the accounts not being available in Welsh, which is unfortunate and will need to be rectified and I think has been rectified by now. We are very confident in what we have done in order to provide the support needed to bring jobs into Wales, and today we celebrate the fact that unemployment is 3.3 per cent. It is below the UK average. We celebrate the fact that we have record employment, higher than Scotland—record employment—and economic inactivity is down. These are figures we would have dreamt of not so long ago, and that shows how important it is to have a Welsh Labour-led Government that provides the support to business and ensures that unemployment comes down below the UK average. That's the devolution dividend.

The leader of the opposition, Paul Davies.

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I also associate myself with the remarks made by the leader of Plaid Cymru and send my sympathies and my party's condolences to Corey Sharpling's family? 

First Minister, in light of this weekend's devastating floods, do you consider your decision to cut capital spending on flood defences by almost 50 per cent in 2016-17 wise?

We have invested a great deal of money—£350 million—over this Government term to reduce the risk of flooding and coastal erosion. That's a substantial investment, far in excess of what's been done by his party in England, I have to say, where flood defence money has been cut very, very sharply indeed.

Now, what we will do, of course, is wait for NRW to conduct an analysis of whether there is more that can be done, or a reprioritising of some schemes, in the light of the evidence that we have seen from the flooding over the course of the past weekend. That is the sensible thing to do, that is the responsible thing to do, but I can say that there is already evidence that the schemes that have been put in place have helped to mitigate and prevent flooding across Wales where flooding would have occurred in the past.

Well, First Minister, it's about time that you take responsibility for what you are actually responsible for here in Wales, instead of talking about England. Let me give you some of the figures. [Interruption.] Let me give you—[Interruption.] Let me give you some of the figures. Between 2015-16 and 2016-17, capital spending on flood defences was cut from £18 million to £9.5 million, and it's therefore true to say that spending on flood-risk management and flood defences is not your Government's priority. Once again, your Government has failed to understand and address the needs of communities across Wales. Will you now apologise to those homes and businesses for the devastation and havoc that have been caused because of the cuts we've seen to NRW's budget over the years?

Does he know how many flooding events there have been in England over the years? There are some things that are very difficult to prevent. We are not in a position where we can prevent every single flood, despite the weather, and what we saw over the weekend was an extreme weather event. Despite that, we will work with NRW to understand what more may need to be done in order to mitigate the impacts of flooding in the future. 

But he simply cannot say, 'Well, you know, this is Wales—forget about what's happening in Whitehall.' The money, in the main—all of it, almost—comes from his Government in London, and yet he sits there and says, 'Well, it's all your fault that spending has been cut', when, in fact, as the finance Secretary has already said, if spending had kept pace—if public spending had kept pace and our block grant had kept pace—with growth in the economy since 2010, we would have £4 billion more. Why doesn't he make the case for Wales? We know Northern Ireland had £1 billion-worth of bung money. Why doesn't he make the case for Wales?

Yes, of course, we take responsibility in devolved areas, but perhaps he might want to take some responsibility and say to his colleagues in London, 'Enough is enough—let's end austerity; give Wales the money that it deserves.'

The reason we've had to cut spending, as a UK Government, over the last few years is because of the shambles—the shambles—that you left, as a party, in 2010. And we're still paying—[Interruption.] We're still paying the price for that. Now, First Minister—[Interruption.] First Minister, clearly—[Interruption.] Clearly—

Okay. Okay, allow the leader of the opposition to be heard.

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, clearly, flooding is not a priority for your Government, because the remit letter from the environment Minister, which sets the priorities for Natural Resources Wales each year, does not prioritise flooding, flood-risk management or water management at all. This is the latest in a long line of failures at Natural Resources Wales, and a weakness of your Government to properly manage this organisation. First Minister, how will you and your Minister now get a grip of this issue and ensure that flooding and flood-risk management will be a priority for you and your Government in the future?

Well, from a representative of the party that created the omnishambles—I don't think we can take any lessons from them. As I said to him earlier on, we will have provided over £350 million of investment across Wales to local authorities and NRW to reduce the risk of flooding and coastal erosion. 

But he cannot escape the fact that we have seen year after year after year of cuts to our budget here in Wales, even as the Democratic Unionist Party's votes were bought by his party—£1 billion; silence from the Conservative benches. Did they stand up for Wales? Of course they didn't. Did they complain to their colleagues in London? Of course they didn't. Far easier to try and pin the blame on us, when our budget is being cut year after year after year, than actually try and influence their colleagues in London, over whom they say they have a great deal of influence, and provide Wales with the fair play that Wales deserves—that extra £4 billion—and, of course, ensuring that Northern Ireland doesn't get £1 billion, with nothing for Scotland and Wales in the future. That's responsibility—perhaps he'd like to apologise to the people of Wales for his failure in that regard.

Leader of the UKIP group, Gareth Bennett.

Diolch, Llywydd. I add my condolences to the families of people who were affected by the tragic events at the weekend. Now, First Minister, you will be well aware of the environmental effects of wood burning. Wood burning is seen by some environmentalists as a source of air pollution. Burning wood from trees also releases concentrated toxins back into the air, increasing our carbon footprint. So, I would like to ask you, First Minister, what is the Welsh Government's policy regarding the burning of wood? 

We are supportive of biomass but, of course, we want to make sure that the energy mix is as broad as possible, whilst taking into account our commitments in terms of reducing our carbon footprint. That's why, of course, we've seen biomass plants around Wales. Of course, biomass is renewable in the sense that you can replant trees in a way, for example, that isn't possible with coal. 

Thank you for that answer. There are some contentious arguments going on about wood burning and biomass, as to whether that really is renewable, so I will ask you on that, if I may. Now, a few weeks ago at First Minister's questions, you were telling us how EU regulations and guidance were helping Wales and the UK to protect the environment. And yet I now see that the EU has recently promoted the burning of wood as an environmentally-friendly and renewable fuel, as you just referred to the practice yourself. However, in adopting this position, the EU has drawn quite pointed criticism from many respected environmental scientists. For example, Eric Lambin of Stanford University said:

'Treating wood as a carbon-neutral fuel is a simple policy decision with complex cascading effects on forest use, energy systems, wood trade and biodiversity worldwide.' 

End of quote. The worry is that by treating wood burning as a virtuous renewable fuel, we can end up desecrating forests, increasing the harvesting of global woodland, and, ultimately, producing increased emissions of greenhouse gas. Bearing all that in mind, First Minister, is your Government still confident that the EU is delivering the environmental protections that you have been telling us about? 

Yes, because—. Well, let me see if I can explain it. Wood comes from trees, and trees grow. [Laughter.] And trees—. You can plant trees, they will grow, and they are replaceable in the way that coal, for example, as a fossil fuel, isn't. And I come back to the point I made earlier on—well, a few weeks ago in this Chamber: it's because of the EU that the UK cleaned up its act. The UK was one of the worst polluters in Europe. There was a river—I believe it was the River Irwell in Salford—that would catch alight if a lit match was thrown into it. Air quality was bad. We contributed hugely to acid rain. Our beaches were filthy. All those things have changed because European regulations have cleaned up Britain, and the last thing I'd want to see is us going back to those dark days in the 1980s where, for example, the River Ogmore in Bridgend used to run different colours according to what had been put into it upriver. I saw it run green, red, black—take your pick, really. The level of pollution was horrendous. Those days can never return. 

Yes, you're using your well-worn anecdote about the River Irwell in Salford again. Well, we don't have to go as far away as the River Irwell—you also cite the River Ogmore. We had two rivers in Cardiff that would also change colour, so I'm not disagreeing with you on that—the Taff would turn black with coal dust; the Ely would change into various bright colours as it passed Ely papermill, depending on which colour dye had just been flushed into the river. But, going back to the River Irwell, I'd quote from a recent Cardiff University paper that referenced the recent addition of the journal Nature Geoscience. I quote, 'But a recent analysis of the Irwell system in the north-west of England found the highest concentration of plastic recorded in any river in the world.' End quote. So, even with all of these wonderful EU regulations, the river is still apparently suffering from some fairly major pollution. 

Now, I think there are a couple of points to be made here. One is that you talk about my party, UKIP, wanting the UK to leave the EU as though we don't want any environmental regulations. And you speak as if, the moment the UK does leave the EU, all of the environmental regulations will disappear overnight. Clearly, this is nonsense and you're merely scaremongering. There is a continuity Bill that will ensure that all of the environmental regulations—every single one of them— will be preserved in UK law until such time as the UK Parliament has had time to assess that regulation and determine whether or not to keep it, to amend it, or to dispose of it. That process will take some time, obviously, because the legislators will have thousands of EU regulations to examine. 

But another point I would like to make is this—[Interruption.]  

You do need to get to a question. 

I will. You seem to have a blind faith in EU directives and regulations, and yet—[Interruption.] 

And now I can't hear whether he is getting to a question. 

I am, Llywydd. 

Yes. Thank you, Gareth. 

And yet the EU supports wood burning, and we have people in Wales facing potential health risks as a result of that wood burning. There were at least three fires in south Wales at a wood recycling plant last year alone. Natural Resources Wales, which you oversee, gave a licence to a biomass incinerator neighbouring residential properties near Barry Dock. There's black, acrid smoke—[Interruption.]

Okay. I do need a question now. 

How do you respond to the acrid, black smoke being suffered by residents near that wood-burning incinerator? 

Well, his party, as far as I'm aware, is in favour of more coal, which means more opencast, actually, because that's the only way to really get at coal in Wales now. It would be very difficult to sink any deep mines, even if we wanted to, to access that coal, and hugely expensive because of the geological faults, particularly in south Wales. I'm not sure whether he's saying that somehow the EU is polluting Britain with biomass. And he cites the River Irwell—there's work to be done there, clearly, with plastic. But the point is this: I don't make the point that somehow all environmental regulations will fall away as soon as we leave the EU; I make the point that it was the EU that forced Britain to clean up its act. The UK had an awful record when it came to pollution. It was forced to clean up beaches, clean up rivers, clean up the sea, because of European regulation. I would not want to see a situation in the future where we went backwards because of some crazed free-market ideology that said that environmental regulation is something that should be light touch. Absolutely not; we pride ourselves on our environment in Wales, we pride ourselves on the fact that it's been cleaned up so much over the past 30 years, and it will not go backwards. 

The effectiveness of its spending is, in the first instance, a matter for each authority and its elected members, including through scrutiny.

'An easy and lazy option when it comes to local government is to blame austerity and the Tories.' Gosh, First Minister, it sounds a bit like you and your Government. Let me read it again: 'an easy and lazy option when it comes to local government is to blame austerity and the Tories. It too often ignores other factors, such as poor decision making, when it comes to both budgets and service delivery.'

First Minister, these are the words of the former Labour leader of your local council, Jeff Jones. [Interruption.] The latest figures available for useable reserves over the last financial year show that four Welsh councils hold over £100 million each in reserves, and three of these are Labour-led. First Minister, is it poor decision making to cut so many services when sitting on millions and millions of pounds?

Well, there's very little upon which I'd agree with Jeff Jones, and that has not changed. The point is this: is she saying that all local authorities, regardless of which party runs them, are in some way operating badly? Because that's what she's suggesting, that somehow it's all poor decision making in all parts of Wales and that local government, in effect, is crying wolf, that, somehow, local government has lots of money and, if only for the fact that they delivered services in a different way, they would be able to access far more money. Well, no. We know how difficult it is on local authorities. We know that it is tight. We look forward to the ending of austerity and look forward to the Chancellor providing us with more resources before Christmas, which we can then help local government with. I just don't accept that the problem in local government in Wales is the fact that every local council is taking bad decisions. That clearly can't be right and we want to make sure that, if the Prime Minister is true to her word and the brakes are coming off austerity, we see further resources coming to Wales and further resources that we can then provide for our local authorities. 

Gwynedd Council is among the councils that will suffer most as a result of cuts following the local government settlement: a cut of up to £11 million, and that’s on top of years of dreadful cuts. On the other hand, the north Wales health board is operating on an annual financial deficit of around £26 million last year, despite the fact that the health board is in special measures and under your direct management as a Government. Is it fair to punish Gwynedd Council, an authority that has been praised for being robust in its financial arrangements, while rewarding a health board that is performing consistently poorly and is clearly failing at financial planning and to operate effectively for the benefit of the people of north Wales?

Well, one of the arguments that some councils put forward is that money should be transferred from health to local government because of the fact that they say more and more money is going into health. The balance is very difficult, because health does attract more and more of a demand each year. But, as I said earlier, we wish to see the Chancellor giving Wales more resources and, by doing that, we hope that there'll be more funding available for local government, because I know that they're under pressure, and I'm not saying anything different, but, of course, the root of this lies in the fact that the money that we get from London has been squeezed. And so we could help local authorities in the same way as we did last year.

First Minister, as a result of this year's local government settlement, local authorities across my region are warning that cuts to essential services are inevitable. Bridgend County Borough Council are proposing to close public toilets in Porthcawl, Swansea are closing care homes, and Neath Port Talbot are at breaking point because of the cuts. First Minister, how is your Government ensuring that local authorities eliminate wasteful spending before cutting essential services?

Well, I think local authorities take very seriously their obligations, and I know that, through contact with my own local authority, there are some very, very painful decisions that they're having to consider at the moment, which is not what people go into politics for, I understand that, which is why I have said to them and to others that any extra resources that come from the Chancellor as a result of the autumn statement—that local government will be first in the queue, given, of course, the pressures that we know will be placed on local government both this year and in the future.

Well, delivering our ambitious vision for public transport is at an exciting stage, as we proceed to reshape rail services via the new Wales and borders franchise, the south Wales metro, of course, the north Wales metro as well, and our plans for active travel, local bus services and investments in the strategic road network.

I thank the First Minister for that response. Yesterday, it was reported that the number of local bus journeys made in Britain had reached a 12-year low, and during the same period Wales bus passenger journeys have dropped by 5 million a year. The bus is such a hugely important form of transport for so many people, so what more can the Welsh Government do to encourage people to take the bus and improve the environment and improve things generally?

Well, I believe this will take legislation, because we know—and many of us will have had constituents come to us complaining about a bus service being cut, but of course there's nothing we can do about it because it's a privately run service, it's not subsidised, there is no leverage. So, in the next few years, the Government will be looking at introducing legislation to ensure greater consistency of supply in services, to ensure we don't see a situation where services suddenly stop because an operator has gone bankrupt or decided not to run the service any more. And I think creating that certainty for passengers will create better numbers for the buses, because people won't be thinking, 'Well, I might take the bus, but will it turn up? Will the service still be there next year?' It's absolutely crucial, because in most parts of Wales we have what's, in effect, a private monopoly. There is no real competition along most routes. This is not what bus privatisation, even if you agreed with it in the 1980s, was meant to do, so we must now look at a new model that looks upon bus services as just that, services rather than something delivered entirely through competition that doesn't really exist.

First Minister, I'd like to focus on disabled access to public transport, and specifically the ongoing lack of access at Abergavenny station. You mentioned the rail network and the importance of that and the new franchise. We didn't get very far under the old Arriva south Wales border franchise in dealing with problems of the lack of disabled access, much to the frustration of local people in my constituency, including prominent disabled access campaigner Dan Biddle. I wonder if you can give us an assurance that, under the new Transport for Wales structure and under the new franchise, as we move forward, the necessary improvements will now be made so that rail passengers across Wales will be able to benefit from unfettered access, whether or not they're able-bodied or disabled.

Yes, £15 million has been allocated for that purpose. Abergavenny station is one of the stations that will be upgraded to ensure—well, 'upgraded' is the wrong word, really. It will ensure that what should be normal, i.e. disabled access, will be there. There are other stations as well. I was at  Cathays station yesterday. It's not possible for people to cross to the other side of the tracks in Cathays—there's a bridge, but there's no other way of doing it; that will need to be resolved as well. But I can assure him that Abergavenny, as an important station, will see that work done.

The Welsh transport appraisal guidance report that proposes the closure of junction 41 westbound states there is a goal to try to ease congestion in that particular area, and they're trying to say that people need to get out of their cars, something that I would agree with. But in that particular area, we've seen downgrading of bus times through the Afan valley, and a new Transport for Wales franchise does not benefit the south-west of Wales as we would like it to. We are seeing huge proposals in finances to be put into a stretch of the M4 that we disagree with. So, how are you going to realise the intentions of that report when community transport is far from perfect here in Wales, and that's the record of your Government? 

First of all, what she's talking about is a capital project, the M4, and what will be revenue funding with regard to bus services; they're two different pots to begin with. But it's not right to say that south-west Wales will not benefit, because the metro is not just about trains, it's not just about light rail, it's also about bus services. Now, of course, bus services have recently been devolved to this institution; there's an opportunity now for us to make sure that bus services are properly integrated into the train services. But, of necessity, because we have control of the train services now, that will be taken forward over the next five years and beyond, and then, of course, subject to the legislation, bus services, including those in the Afan valley, will be brought into a proper metro network.

We are developing our tax policies to meet the specific needs of Wales, in line with the principles set out in our tax policy framework. This includes our approach to the taxation of second homes.

I'm sure you'd agree that the fact that 5 million people in Britain now own two or more homes, whilst almost 700,000 people are reliant on food packs from the Trussell Trust charity is one of the clearest signals that our society is increasingly inequitable and unfair.

There are 5,000 second homes in Gwynedd, whilst almost 2,000 are on the waiting list for social housing in the county. I am pleased to see that you, at last, following pressure from Plaid Cymru, are now starting to tackle the anomaly that means that some second home owners don't pay council tax or business rates, which is a huge loss to the public purse. But far more needs to be done to help families who are priced out of the market by the existence of an increasing number of second homes in their communities. One simple thing that could be done in Wales is to make a minor change to the planning system and make it a requirement for any property to have planning permission before it can become a second home, which would then allow councils to get better control of the situation. Do you agree that this change is required as a matter of urgency?

We've looked at this, and it isn't as easy as that because what happens then, for example, in Cardiff. where many flats are erected and some are second homes? Does that mean that you have to have, for example, planning permission for each one of those, and, in particular, with second homes, what constitutes a second home? If a person lives in it for half the time, but in another for half the time, which is the second home? If it is in England, you could say, 'Well, this is my main home, and my second home is in England.' I understand the point that the Member makes, but it's not quite that simple.

What is the solution? We have ensured that councils can charge more council tax on second homes, and we've ensured that people who purchase second homes have to pay the land purchase tax; that is also true. But, also, we must have a planning system that is sensitive to the linguistic background of the area, particularly, but, ultimately, we need more housing to ensure that local people don't have to compete with incomers and also that there can be a mix of housing so that people can ensure that they have a choice in the area. So, we need more housing and more affordable housing in order to ensure that people can live within their communities. I understand that it's very difficult to do so in some parts of Wales.

First Minister, I do agree that housing is an asset like no other, really, and has to be treated with its social dimension very much in mind. For this reason, I do agree that Government can look at policies like a premium on the council tax. Where you do that, however, shouldn't it also be, at the very least, the guidance that any extra revenue so generated is then reinvested in affordable and social housing?

Well, I would hope that local councils do that anyway. We know that there are many local authorities in Wales who are building council houses. We know that in rural Wales particularly—I think Powys is the example I always use, it has probably sold half of its social housing stock from the end of the 1970s onwards. So many houses were sold and they never found their way back into the hands of people who could afford to buy them because the prices had gone up so far. So, yes, it is hugely important that there is more affordable housing—some will be rented, some not. I was with a building company last week, for example, who said to me that 70 per cent of the houses they sell are sold through Help to Buy, without which, they probably would find it difficult to sustain their current level of activity.

But it is hugely important that we're able to provide more houses across Wales, but particularly in rural Wales, where there is not as much choice in terms of house size and in terms of price. How will we do that? Well, of course, we are on target to deliver 20,000 affordable homes by the end of this Assembly term, which will make a significant contribution.

We're committed to maximising the social, economic and environmental value of our procurement.

Thank you. I have recently acquired a list of transactions on Welsh Government procurement cards for the 2017-18 financial year. I was, however, very shocked to see that nearly £1.6 million was spent on these credit cards over the 12 months, with many of the transactions remaining worryingly vague. One example is the £13,255 spent through PayPal—no information about what was bought and from what companies. Another is £460 spent at yachtshop.co.uk, or the £8,300 spent in one transaction on a British Airways flight. There are also countless instances of these cards paying for Amazon Prime or iTunes subscriptions with no details. What steps are you taking, as First Minister, to improve transparency and financial probity whilst monitoring the spend of hard-earned taxpayers' money on these Welsh Government procurement credit cards?

We regularly publish our spend over £25,000 to improve the transparency of how public funds are used. I will call on the examples that the Member has used and look to provide her with a detailed answer to her questions.

Obviously, we have the Wales Audit Office to monitor the detail of these things. I just wanted to ask you about the wider picture in terms of the procurement power that we have. We have a public sector that spends over £4 billion each year on procurement, and I'm very interested in how we might be able to procure more of our spend in Wales so that we're generating local jobs rather than in multinationals that then export the profits.

I'm particularly interested in work that's been done by the National Procurement Service around procuring food. I'm concerned to see from the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee's report last May that there is no public source of accurate and up-to-date figures on public sector procurement of Welsh food, so I'd be keen to learn how we can improve the procurement of local food in Wales, because, obviously, that would be good for our businesses and also good for our health.

Well, what I can say is that we, of course, encourage Welsh public bodies to increase the visibility of contracts via Sell2Wales. Of the 22,000 contracts awarded so far through Sell2Wales, approximately two thirds have been to Welsh suppliers and 75 per cent of these have been to Welsh small and medium-sized enterprises. I know the Member asked about the National Procurement Service, I can say that the proportion of public procurement expenditure won by Welsh-based firms now stands at 50 per cent. From 1 April 2017 to 30 June of this year, the spend through NPS agreements was £7,000,700, and of that, 57 per cent was Welsh-based suppliers. When our community benefits policy is applied, the figures are even higher. For example, 82 per cent of the money has been retained in Wales when that is applied. She asked, of course, how we increase this. We want to do that through the importance of regional and local priorities within local authorities, and we are exploring the adoption of different approaches where regional collaborative procurement is undertaken, which strengthens the economy and communities within those regions.

Welsh Government is a living wage employer, and I'm proud that this Government has taken action to support and encourage take-up of the real living wage by employers in both the public and private sectors.  

Of course, First Minister, the real living wage makes a real difference to people's lives, benefiting wage earners, their households, communities and local economies. And I know, ahead of Living Wage Week, you've always actively supported events during early November. What further action can be taken to promote the real living wage across, particularly, the public sector, the health service and local government, but also in further and higher education?

Well, we've got a strong push on this across the public sector: in Government, of course; our sponsored bodies; the NHS; national parks; HEIs; some local authorities, for example, they all pay the real living wage to their own staff. Of course, we need to make sure that applies across local authorities. It needs to be seen as something that is normal, not exceptional, within the public sector, and we want now to move on to use the buying power that we have in the public sector to ensure the wider adoption of the real living wage as part of fair work across the economy.

And finally, question 8. Bethan Sayed.

Well, I am pleased that, following the exit from the housing revenue account subsidy system, all affected authorities have a council house building strategy in place. They're all at different stages and we are working with them to increase the pace and scale of their plans. 

As you've mentioned, as part of the exit from this scheme in 2015, a borrowing cap of £1.85 billion was placed on councils that retained housing stock. Given that Theresa May has announced that English councils will no longer have a cap on their ability to borrow to build new homes, will the Welsh Government look into renegotiating the current deal with the Treasury? After all, it makes more sense to borrow to build homes when there is no right to buy, as is the case in Wales, than in England, where homes can be built and then sold for less than the market value. In Wales, that investment will continue to be returned over the long term.

That's correct. At the moment the borrowing cap is £1,927 million. I saw the Prime Minister's announcement. Officials have been in touch with representatives in the UK Government to see how that will work, and I think it's fair to say that no-one seems to know at the moment. The announcement was made. There doesn't seem to be any detail. But I can assure the Member that what applies in England in terms of flexibility, we would expect to apply in Wales.

Thank you, First Minister.

The next item, therefore, is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the leader of the house to make the statement. Julie James.

Diolch, Llywydd. There are several changes to this week's business. Later today, the Minister for environment will make a statement on the flood impact of storm Callum; I will make a statement on 'Action on Disability: The Right to Independent Living'; and the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care will make a statement on National Adoption Week. These replace statements on a broadband update—which I will deliver next week—and the findings of the independent accelerated programme for amber review, which has been postponed until 6 November. Additionally, the statement on the update on year 2 of the innovative housing programme has been reduced to 30 minutes. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out in the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting paper available to Members electronically.

Leader of the house, can I call for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Education on the process by which she determines school closure proposals that have been referred to her by various organisations that are able to do that? She will be aware that there is an outstanding school closure proposal that has been on the Cabinet Secretary's desk—or, certainly, a desk in the Welsh Government—for the past 31 months. It's now five years that there has been uncertainty around this particular school closure proposal for Ysgol Llanbedr in my own constituency in Denbighshire. The first application was forwarded to Ministers and the application was rejected. A second application was then made by Denbighshire to close the school, and it was referred by the Church in Wales back in 2015, and the uncertainty is hanging around this school. Yet in spite of that, the numbers at the school are buoyant, it's entered into a federation arrangement with another local school, and appears to be going from strength to strength and having a great deal of success. But I'm sure that you would agree with me that such uncertainty for such a long time is completely unacceptable, and that this now needs to be determined as a matter of urgency. So, I would appreciate a statement just clarifying the process, and the appropriate timescales, from the Cabinet Secretary for Education.

Can I also call for a statement on access to modern medicines? I met this morning with the Cystic Fibrosis Trust regarding access to some of the more modern medicines, including Orkambi, which has been proven to be significantly effective in alleviating the symptoms and slowing down the progress of cystic fibrosis in as many as 47 per cent of cases. This could benefit around 200 people who are suffering from cystic fibrosis here in Wales, and yet at the moment this drug isn't available, in spite of it being available in Austria, Denmark, Germany, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Italy, Ireland, Greece, the United States and Sweden. Clearly this is a modern drug, it's expensive, and I know that we have to safeguard the public purse, but it is making a difference for those people who have access to it, and I think it would be helpful if we could have an update from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services on this particular situation, and in particular to give us some light on whether there have been any discussions with Vertex, the manufacturer of this particular drug, the Welsh Government and NHS Wales in terms of making some sort of access available for patients. So, I'd be grateful if I could have those two statements, please.

The second one is already the subject of a question for one of your Conservative colleagues at questions tomorrow, so I'm sure there'll be an opportunity to discuss it with the Cabinet Secretary there. On the school closure issue that you mentioned, the Cabinet Secretary is indicating that she's happy to write to you about it.

Leader of the house, back in May I raised under the business statement the fact that I had received representations from trainee doctors in Wales in the field of histopathology who, for some time now, have faced a pay gap of some £40,000 over the course of their training when compared to their English counterparts. The Welsh Government is aware of the pay gap due to correspondence between myself and the Cabinet Secretary for health on this matter. Indeed, I first raised the matter in a written question back in November 2016, yet two years on the gap persists.

As I've stated previously, pay, among other factors, is clearly important to trainee doctors when deciding on where to train and study. Doctors who decide to train in Wales deserve parity with their counterparts across the border. Trainees have told me that they feel that, by deciding to work in Wales, they are being financially punished for the decision. The situation is not fair, it does nothing for morale and in the long run it undermines the Welsh Government's own attempts to attract doctors to train and work in NHS Wales.

In answering our written question from myself in July of this year, the Cabinet Secretary referred to discussions with BMA Cymru and the Wales Deanery, and that he expected a report on this issue to be ready in September. Could I therefore ask the Cabinet Secretary to bring forward a statement, be it oral or written, setting out clearly the Welsh Government's position on closing this pay gap in histopathology training between Wales and England with a view to bringing this inequity to an end as soon as possible?

The Cabinet Secretary's indicating to me that he's very happy to bring forward a statement on that matter.

Thank you. I wanted to raise the continuing issue of the Windrush scandal. As the leader of the house is probably aware, since the Windrush scandal became public earlier this year, two taskforces have been launched by the Home Office to engage with people affected by the scandal and to help them resolve their status. However, I understand that, despite visiting 52 places in the UK, the taskforce is now finally coming to Wales and, I understand, only after Hilary Brown, the lawyer who has fought many of these immigration cases, protested, and it will only come to two places, Cardiff and Newport. A second compensation taskforce is only coming for one day, so I think there is a great deal of anger, really, that Welsh victims of Windrush are being discarded and treated as a second afterthought. Of course, it does affect us here in the Assembly because it links to some of the services that we provide in this Assembly.

So, I don't know whether the leader of the house has been able to raise this with Home Office officials, or whether she will raise it with Home Office officials. Perhaps we could have a statement from the Government about what is happening with the victims of Windrush here in Wales.

Yes, as it happens, I had the opportunity to meet with the UK Government Minister for Immigration, Caroline Nokes, only yesterday, and this was on the agenda for discussion. She confirmed that the taskforce is coming to Wales, and we had some discussion about what the situation was here in Wales. Only 62 people from Wales, she has confirmed back to me, have accessed the helpline, and whilst we don't know the true scale of the affected community, I personally think, from conversations in the community—and I know Julie Morgan has had similar conversations—that that's only a small fraction of those who are actually affected.

I had quite a robust discussion with the Minister and with my counterpart from Scotland about the situation, and about what information people are expected to produce and how reasonable that is, and what they were testing that against in terms of transparency and reasonableness and all those sorts of things. She assured me that the taskforce was very interested in supporting individuals throughout the whole process, and we had an exchange of views around the fact that the community needed to be thoroughly reassured that the process was there, both to protect their interests and to compensate them for any difficulties that they might have encountered. So, the Minister did assure me of those things, and I look forward to seeing how the taskforce progresses. 

Leader of the house, may I ask for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for health on the availability of microprocessor knees on the NHS in Wales? Microprocessor knees, or MPKs, are designed for people who have an amputation above the knee and thus lack the knee joint and lower leg. I was contacted recently by a constituent who had his right leg amputated up to the hip after the lorry he was driving overturned in high winds on the Severn bridge. MPKs have been available on the NHS in England since 2016 and are also provided to eligible amputees in Northern Ireland and Scotland. However, my constituent has been told by his amputation clinic that they are not available in Wales. Leader of the house, can I ask the Cabinet Secretary for his statement on why the life-changing benefits of MPKs are not available to amputees in Wales, please?

I understand that you are already in correspondence with the health Secretary on this matter, and that he's already answered your query.

It has been announced that the public front desk at Caerphilly police station will once again close, meaning that, effectively, Caerphilly town will be left without a police station. That's just a little over a year after it was reopened. The cost of purchasing and refurbishing the station has amounted to £315,000 of public money. And whilst, of course, I accept that policing isn't a devolved matter to the Welsh Government, the Welsh Government does fund police community support officers—nearly 150 in the Gwent force area alone. So, can we have a statement from Welsh Government expressing a view, and even a concern, on the effective loss of a station in a major town, but, crucially, the fact that it will be more difficult for people in Caerphilly to access services that are partly funded by the Welsh Government itself?

I wasn't aware of that. I don't know if he's written to my Cabinet Secretary colleague for local government and public services. If he hasn't, I'd suggest he does so, and I can assist with getting a response to that. 

With regard to the Barry incinerator, has the Minister reached a decision as to whether an EIA—an environmental impact assessment—will be required to accompany the most recent planning application for a water tower and car park? And is the Minister aware that the Barry Docks Incinerator Action Group is of the opinion that the entire project required an EIA to accompany the planning application in 2015?

The Minister for Environment has not yet made the decision about the need for an environmental impact assessment to accompany the planning application currently before the Vale of Glamorgan Council, relating to the water tank and to car parking. I do expect, though, that when the Minister issues a decision letter, that it will address the issue of an EIA in respect of the application for outline planning permission in 2015.

Could I call for two statements? The first one is on post-polio syndrome ahead of Post-polio Syndrome Day next Monday, 22 October. It was launched in 2013 to raise awareness of post-polio syndrome amongst the general public, and the date chosen, 22 October, to be close to the official World Polio Day, marked on 24 October, by Rotary's End Polio Now campaign.

People in remote regions with the syndrome can be particularly hard to reach. There have been outreach initiates in Scotland and south-west England and, clearly, there will be people with the syndrome in remote parts of Wales, who are also living isolated lives, who need to be reached. This is recognised as a neurological condition. Up to 80 per cent of those who've had polio will go on to develop the syndrome after several years, with increasing weakness, fatigue, pain, swallowing problems, cold intolerance and much else. There's no specific cure, but properly managed, it can be stabilised, progress slowed, cost on the NHS reduced and the quality of life of the individuals affected improved. In a survey by YouGov a couple of years ago, 86 per cent of people recognised Parkinson's, Alzheimer’s and epilepsy, but only 7 per cent recognised the syndrome. The British Polio Fellowship is calling on parliamentarians across the UK to help develop that awareness across the population, but also in Wales, particularly in the context of the needs of the population affected. I call for a statement on that.

My final call is for a statement on modern slavery. Last Saturday, I attended the north Wales modern slavery forum, ahead of modern slavery week this week, and Anti-slavery Day across the UK on 18 October. It was organised by a third sector organisation, Haven of Light, but we had representatives from public, private, business sectors, we had the Wales anti-slavery co-ordinator, Jeff Cuthbert as the anti-slavery lead for the police and crime commissioners, and many more. We heard that, now, the biggest affected population are actually Britons who are trafficking victims. We heard that modern slavery was alive in business, agriculture, hospitality, crime and sexual exploitation across north Wales, and Wales's rural communities, towns and every single county, and much more besides. Clearly, this is topical because of the week, but clearly it's also an ongoing issue, where the number of people reported last year of being trafficked increased by 56 per cent, and the first six months of this year showed a multiple again of figures being reported, just in Wales.

On modern slavery, I am very pleased to say that we're the first nation, of course, to have appointed the modern slavery champion and co-ordinator, and he's been working very hard across Wales to raise awareness and to ensure that people recognise it when they see it. We're very pleased indeed with the number of reports coming forward, which we see as recognition rather than an indication of increasing numbers, and it's obvious that the reporting is getting better with that awareness. And he's been working very hard indeed on that.

I'm very happy to bring forward a statement about how we're getting on, but I don't think it will be in the next few weeks, because there are a number of things that he's doing that I would like to report on. But, Llywydd, I'm very happy to schedule in a statement in due course, when we've got to the end of that particular programme of events. I think the Member makes a very good point about the awareness raising around that, and how important it is. And I was very pleased to be able to raise the issue with Caroline Nokes MP, when I met with her yesterday, in the context of very vulnerable people who have come to the end of the asylum and refugee system, who then disappear into the black market. We had a very constructive conversation about what we can do, in combination with the two Governments, to make sure that very vulnerable people don't become the victims of modern slavery, in an unintended consequence of two particular policies coming together. So, I was very pleased with that discussion.

In terms of the post-polio syndrome, the Member does always a very good job of highlighting the efforts that he makes to sponsor such events around Wales. I think you did an excellent job today of doing that. I for one will look forward to attending his event.

I was wondering if we could please have a debate regarding general traffic and pollution control measures on major roads here in Wales? This is in the context of the fact that, last night, I arranged a packed public meeting about the proposed closure of junction 41 westbound. Now, this will affect the people of Port Talbot detrimentally. But there are other roads in Wales where I think that we need to be talking about pollution levels, and how we can better engage the public in these types of consultations. For example, we've got the report out at the moment on the changes proposed for the M4 near Port Talbot, but it's quite a long and hefty report, and it's quite detailed, and it's quite hard to read on occasion. And I think that—. When the consultation ends on 2 November, how are we going to get people engaged and enthused on trying to alleviate some of these problems, if we don't have enough time, or enough respect, potentially, from Welsh Government, to come out and talk to the community about that? Now, we fought this campaign already in 2013-14. We stopped the closure from happening; now, it's reared its head yet again, so the public are rightly annoyed at this proposal. So, I'm keen to try and engage them in a positive way, to look at alternatives to the closure, to look at environmentally friendly alternatives to the closure, so that we can be informed in the debate, as opposed to being bystanders to a decision that has already been made.

Actually, that's not quite the case. Of course, the consultation is out at the moment, and we certainly do recognise the support felt locally to keep open junction 41 of the M4. We do have a legal duty to present options as part of the consultation process, which is under way as we speak. The consultation is the next stage in the process, and in seeking views on proposed measures, we're considering how to lower harmful levels of nitrogen dioxide along five locations in Wales, one of which, as the Member rightly points out, is the Port Talbot flyover section and junction 41. We've got to consider the measures against the set criteria and objectives, and take into consideration that exposure to heightened air pollution does pose a threat to life. And our primary concern cannot be the road user alone, but also the people who live and work near the roads under scrutiny. And although it certainly isn't one of the preferred measures, it can't be ruled out at this stage. It is part of the consultation, and we do recommend that views are provided as part of the consultation on the proposed measures. The consultation, Llywydd, for the information of all Members who are interested and for members of the public, is open until 2 November 2018. 

Leader of the house, last week it was World Homeless Day, an international day to raise awareness and encourage local communities to help those who are homeless, rough-sleeping or vulnerably housed. I was very pleased, last week, to join colleague and friend Bethan Sayed AM in selling The Big Issue in Cardiff city centre, something that my dad and Bethan did last year. I was able to sell five magazines, which I think was quite good going—[Interruption.]—and even Bethan beat her record as well. So, well done to her. 

He beat me. [Laughter.]

The experience showed me the importance of stopping and having a conversation, because that really can help someone, not just buying the magazine itself. I've said many times before that even a smile on the street can save a life. So, this week I'm also looking forward to joining a constituent of mine, Adam Dandy, of SHARE shop, on the streets for an evening on Thursday in order to raise awareness and sleeping out.

I think it's always important to look at the best practice when it comes to ending the epidemic of homelessness, because 300,000 people are homeless across the UK—that's one in every 200 homeless—and there has been an increase of 169 per cent since 2009. Now, to our shame, an average of three people in the UK die on the streets of the UK every single week. If we contrast that to Finland, leader of the house, where they adopted a housing first model in 2008—since then, they've seen a decrease of 18 per cent in homelessness, thanks to this initiative. I perhaps wonder if the Government would be able to bring forward a statement on this type of model, the housing first approach, and whether that might work here in Wales, and if so, when we will see it. Thank you. 

Yes, well, Jack Sargeant, did very well by selling that many. I have to say, that beats my own record as well. But it does give you a really good insight, doesn't it, into actually what it's like to stand there as a street seller and to have people just ignore you as if you're not there? I think I can't emphasise enough, in conjunction with himself and with Bethan, who I know has long taken part in these as well, how much difference it can make to actually talk to somebody and say, if you can't buy one, why you can't buy one and all the rest of it. I buy my Big Issue always off the same person, so I always have to explain to others that I feel that I want to give my custom to the woman I've been supporting for some little while.

But I would also like to draw Members' attention to the fact that there are apps available in most council areas in Wales now—StreetLink or street sleep apps; you can Google them—and they give you information about what you can do if you see somebody who's very vulnerable, who you think needs to be assisted by homeless options or housing options, or whatever it is your local council—. And I do recommend that people get hold of these, because they can be very helpful and also tell you the best thing to be able to do if you don't want to give money—to buy food or clothing or whatever, or something that the person might be able to use immediately just to tide them over, and then also to signpost them right. So, I do commend all of those things.

Also, Llywydd, I'm going to indulge myself, if you'll permit me, by saying I'm delighted that the homelessness football is coming to Wales as well—street football—and I'm really delighted about that. I very much support that initiative in my own constituency and I know that Wales will be very proud to host it here. 

Leader of the house, winter is approaching and as sure as night follows day, the A4042—I'll watch my turn of phrase in future—a key north-south strategic route through my constituency, has once again been closed at Llanellen, due to flooding—a common problem. Could I ask for an update from the Welsh Government as to where we are with improving this stretch of road? I know there have been discussions in the past between Welsh Government and local landowners in terms of providing a solution to this road. It has once again caused massive problems for commuters and local people alike, and with the fast-developing critical care centre at Llanfrechfa Grange in Cwmbran, it's going to become even more important that this road is fully open all the time, so that ambulances, which previously had been taking people to Nevill Hall Hospital, can now get to the specialist critical care centre at Llanfrechfa. So, it's becoming a more important route, not less, and local people are looking to the Welsh Government to provide a solution, both in the short term and the longer term, so that local people don't have the sort of disruption they've had over the last few years.

Flooding, of course, has been a serious issue across Wales for roads and for other areas. The Minister is actually about to make a statement on the outcome of the flooding, including the review about the efficacy of the measures in place and what can be done about it. So, I'm sure the Member will have most of the questions he raised there answered. 

May I ask for two statements from the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs, please? The first relating to the UK Government’s announcement today that they are to hold an independent review on how agricultural funding will be distributed among the nations within the UK post Brexit, because it is crucial that this is done properly in terms of the interests of the agricultural sector in Wales, where, of course, we represent 4.7 per cent of the population but receive 9.4 per cent of the CAP funding coming to the UK. That, of course, reflects the rural nature of Wales and the importance of agriculture to the Welsh economy.

There’s been some discussion on the importance of Barnett and not using Barnett as the foundation for this, and we’ve heard some positive noises in that regard, but there was a significant sentence in some of the reports, stating:

'the Barnett formula alone will not be used as a basis for distributing funds to farmers after 2022.'

Does that suggest that, perhaps, Barnett will be part of the equation? And if it is, then, clearly, that could cause major problems for us here in Wales. So, I would like to know, for example, what the Welsh Government’s input was to the remit of the review that’s been put in place, what involvement will the Welsh Government have in choosing the Welsh representative on the panel, and, of course, what will the model that the was Government would wish to promote be as part of that review?

May I also ask for an oral statement? We’ve heard in an announcement today from the Cabinet Secretary the name of the interim chair of Natural Resources Wales. From that written statement, which was relatively brief, there is one sentence mentioning the background of this individual, mainly in the health sector. It appears that the individual has no experience of the environmental and agricultural sectors, which, of course, are the main focus of NRW, or any experience of working in Wales or any knowledge of the structures. That’s one thing, but more seriously, I have to say that in looking at the individual’s background it appears that in 2006 he left Liverpool council under a cloud with accusations that he had passed sensitive documents on to Government. In the same year, 22 MPs wrote an open letter saying that they couldn’t work with him following his appointment as chief executive of the regional health board. In 2010, he was appointed chief executive of Alder Hey hospital, encouraging the gentleman who was going to rebuild the hospital to resign in protest. And the person who is now commissioner for Merseyside police describes him as, and I quote,

'A man in whom I have no confidence and for whom I have no respect'. 

Now, I think we should at least have a full oral statement in this Parliament rather than one brief sentence in a written statement, so that we can understand why the Cabinet Secretary and the Welsh Government have confidence in this individual, when it’s clear that so many other people don’t share that confidence.

On the land consultation, the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs, in an open letter in September, provided clarity on the proposals for reform that, which are set out in the 'Brexit and our land' consultation. The proposals are exactly those proposals. The consultation closes on 30 October. We are receiving responses at quite a rate. It's too early to offer an analysis of the responses we've seen so far. I don't believe we've had any input into the UK Government consultation announced to that question. Obviously, once the consultation closes, there will be an analysis of the results from the consultation on the proposals. 

On the NRW interim chair, there has been a written statement. The Member has a number of ways that he can ask questions on a written statement; I suggest that those are utilised. 

Leader of the house, could I join in the calls that have come from the Plaid Cymru benches in relation to a Cabinet statement from the Cabinet Secretary for rural affairs in relation to the nominee she's likely to put forward, if indeed she will put a nominee forward, to the review group that Michael Gove has set up to look into funding options around the whole of the UK? It was welcome news last week that any future funding will not be Barnettised and there will be a greater redistribution of the money should the need require. But the review group obviously will give the recommendations into the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs set-up and also Treasury, so it would be good to understand how Welsh Government will engage with that review, and, indeed, they have been asked to put a nominee forward for that. So, the understanding of who that nominee might be is critically important in influencing, obviously, the outcome of the review.

Secondly, in your role as leader of the house, could I enquire of you how the M4 relief road announcement proposal might be taken forward? The First Minister has indicated that he will take that decision—the current First Minister, I might add. As the clock is now ticking and there are only seven weeks left before the current First Minister does stand down, I did put this question to the Cabinet Secretary in the short debate last week, and I was unable to elicit much of a response. But this is Government business. You are the leader of the house, who tables Government business, so I'd be grateful to understand whether you have an understanding of when that announcement might come from the First Minister, and, indeed, how it might be tabled, because I think that it is critical that that announcement is delivered on the floor of the Senedd rather than through the press. Can you give us that assurance that that'll be the case and that that's the timeline that the Government is working to? As I said, we know what the timeline has to be—it has to be within seven weeks—so, hopefully, you can give us some clarity on that.

Could I also seek a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport in relation to the procurement of the new trains that were announced in July 2017—five new class 769 trains were announced as being acquired for the Welsh rail network. We welcome the announcements around the positive investment in the train service here in Wales, but this announcement made in July 2017 for these trains to arrive on the Welsh network by May 2018 has not happened to date. Those trains have not arrived on the Welsh network, yet we are now some six months past the delivery date. It is important that people have confidence that the new announcements that are coming forward will be delivered upon. If you look at this announcement, which was made, as I said, in July 2017, to date those trains have not arrived on the rail network here in Wales, despite them being made available, or supposed to be made available, by May 2018. Can we have a statement from the Cabinet Secretary as to when this rolling stock will be available for the Welsh rail network, in particular as we go into the peak winter months now, when we know there are challenges from the elements on the network. More rolling stock would alleviate some of the pressures that the travelling public have.

Thanks. On that last one, I'll get the Cabinet Secretary to write to the Member, setting out where we are with that timescale.FootnoteLink

On the M4 timescale, the current schedule for Government business shows that there's a debate scheduled for the week commencing 4 December, I think it is—the penultimate week of the winter term, anyway, is the week that's currently scheduled for the M4 debate, with the timetable going backwards from there.

I think the two other things the Member asked I'd largely answered in response to Llyr.

Thank you, leader of the house.

That brings us to the statement by the Minister for Environment, which is an update on the flood impacts of storm Callum. I call on the Minister to make the statement—Hannah Blythyn.

Diolch, Llywydd. I’m grateful for the opportunity to provide an update on the flooding experienced across Wales over the past weekend as a result of storm Callum. I would like to start by sending my sympathies to all those who have been flooded over this weekend and in particular to the family of Corey Sharpling, who lost his life as a result of a landslide.

I’d like to place on record this Government’s gratitude to the emergency services, local authorities, Natural Resources Wales and Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water, who worked tirelessly around the clock this weekend to support those who have been flooded, close roads and evacuate properties, and who are now working with communities to support their recovery.

I recognise how devastating and distressing flooding can be to those communities affected. This morning, I saw at first hand some of the impacts when I visited Llandysul, where I met with residents and the teams who responded over the weekend and who continue to work on the recovery.

Storm Callum brought large amounts of rainfall in Wales, with up to 160mm being recorded in a 24-hour period—more than the monthly average for this time of the year. During the peak period of this event, NRW had issued 40 flood warnings. This had a massive impact on our rivers, with some recording their highest levels on record, and, in many places, drainage systems were overwhelmed. Unfortunately, this has led to flooding of properties, roads, railways and agricultural land around the country.

Local authorities and NRW are continuing to work to assess the full extent of the damage and impacts. However, we are aware of flooding to properties in the local authorities of Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion, Neath Port Talbot, Powys, Bridgend, Caerphilly, Rhondda Cynon Taf, Swansea and the Isle of Anglesey. Our current estimates are that 218 properties across Wales suffered internal flooding, of which 195 were homes, the majority of these being across the southern half of the country. Local authorities and NRW are continuing to pull together information about flooded properties and, over the coming few days, this figure is likely to change. In addition, Dŵr Cymru have also reported at least 29 properties flooded internally.

Storm Callum had a significant impact on the rail services across the entire Wales and borders network, with flooding and high winds resulting in the cancellation of a number of services, as well as impacting on general performance. Flood damage was particularly severe on the Heart of Wales line, where the wash-out of a significant section of track near Llandeilo means that the line will remain partially closed for a number of days yet. In addition to the impact on rail infrastructure, a significant number of trains were also damaged during storm Callum through hitting trees and branches, as well as having to run through flood waters.

A number of roads and bridges around the country were impacted over the weekend, with some remaining closed. The road closures as a result of flooding were not due to failing infrastructure, but the sheer volume of run-off onto the network or from rivers breaking out of their banks. Most trunk roads reopened on Sunday and all are now fully open.

Power utilities reported that over 38,000 customers were affected by the severe weather. However, all customers were restored within 24 hours.

There were a number of reported cases of animals being caught up in the flash floods over the weekend. Various agencies in Wales, including emergency, third sector and enforcement, responded to reports of animals in danger. Whilst they were able to help in many cases, unfortunately the conditions and risk to human life meant it was not always possible to intervene.

Whilst we have seen flooding to many areas across the country, we have also received reports of assets working effectively to reduce the risk in many places. Two examples are reports from Ystradgynlais and Usk, where defences did their job and prevented flooding to the towns. This helps to show how our sustained investment in flood risk management, awareness raising and warning systems has had a positive impact.

We now need to understand the full extent of impacts associated with storm Callum to inform discussions with local authorities and to see what we can do to support those communities affected. Following a major flood event, local authorities have a statutory requirement to investigate its cause and impacts, and provide recommendations going forward. This may include input from NRW, and Welsh Water where required, as well as what lessons can be learnt for the future. I know that some local authorities are considering a hardship scheme and are already discussing with finance officials whether Welsh Government can assist with emergency financial assistance. This Government would like to give that our full consideration.

I recognise the importance of adapting to our changing and challenging climate, which is why flood risk management remains one of my priorities. We are committed to continuing investment in flood and coastal risk management and over the lifetime of this Government will invest over £350 million across Wales. Our investment is not focused solely on building and maintaining defences, but also about community resilience and prevention, through better information, raising awareness of flooding and preparing flood plans to reduce the impacts on lives and property.

We cannot prevent all flooding occurring, so rebuilding resilience and learning from these events is vital. As I started by saying, we cannot do this alone, and I would like to conclude by reiterating my thanks to all those involved in the response to these flooding events and who continue to work hard to assist in the recovery.

Storm Callum did, indeed, wreck homes, businesses and stole lives, and my deepest sympathies go to the family and friends of the young man, Corey Sharpling, who lost his life. But I also have to say that the landslide that took this young man's life also saw some truly heroic efforts, and I would like to publicly pay tribute to two Carmarthenshire County Council workers, because, on that road when the landslide came down with gallons and gallons of water, it swept the lorry off the road, over the bank and into the river, because it's a river road that goes through Cwmduad. The lorry went in head first, the driver was under water and those two Carmarthenshire County Council workers leapt into that boiling inferno, smashed the windows and grabbed him out. I'm sure that throughout Wales there are other tales of people who've done some truly heroic actions, and I'd like to pay tribute to them.

I'd like to thank Carmarthenshire County Council, Dyfed Powys Police, Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Service and Natural Resources Wales, but I also particularly want to pay tribute to Carmarthenshire County Council—to Mark James, Ruth Mullen and the staff, who've all been amazing. Already, the housing teams have been out, the regeneration teams have been out, next week a mobile hub will be set up to help people with benefits, with signposting, with rate rebates, and their positive action and decision to put £100,000 today on the table today for individuals, and £200,000 for businesses, makes, I'm afraid, Minister, the Welsh Government's statement today look as wet as the storm. Minister, will you be able to offer any hard money to councils throughout Wales to assist in a hardship fund? Are you able to commit to matching people like Carmarthenshire County Council, who've already put £300,000? You do say in your statement that you'd like to give it your full consideration—but it's today; they need the money today. There are lives destroyed; they need to start rebuilding today. I worry that the Government will spend ages considering everything before it takes action. Will you please clarify that for me?

Councils might be able to support the smaller businesses, but, of course, funds will be needed for the big, mid and large businesses, especially those that were unable to get flood risk insurance—a number of businesses, again in Carmarthen. There's the big company who have all the pick-up trucks and the rescue trucks—every single one has gone—they can't get insurance because they're by the river. This is an issue, Llywydd, that the environment and sustainability committee have looked at in various iterations of this Assembly and we're still no further forward in helping businesses and homes that are inadvertently affected by what are now major flood risks to get that insurance. So, these people—their livelihoods have been wiped out. So, I'd like to know what you might be able to do to help them.

Minister, will you also waive the trigger point that councils need to reach before they can access any of the Welsh Government hardship fund moneys? That trigger point is set quite high and I think, in a case like this flood, it would be useful if that could be set aside. Minister, it's also the small things—so, for example, the councils are out cleaning houses, dealing with ruined goods—which in turn will affect their municipal waste recycling targets. Are you able to consider setting aside the detritus that comes from the storm so that it's not part of those recycling targets, because that will harm the councils in the long run in meeting Welsh Government targets?

Above all, Minister, this was awful, and in my constituency of Carmarthen West and, in fact, in the whole of Carmarthen, there's been a massive impact, from the cafe that employed 12 people that is going to struggle to ever open again to the large companies that have lost so much. So, I wonder, Minister, if you will agree to update us all in a month's time via an oral statement because we need to let everyone know that Wales is still open despite storm Callum, and on my behalf and as a direct response for the businesses of Carmarthen, can we please let everyone know that Carmarthen is still open despite storm Callum?

Can I thank the Member for her contribution? You made it quite clear yourself that Carmarthen is still open for business despite storm Callum. You're absolutely right, as you opened your remarks today, to talk about those amazing examples of bravery and people just going above and beyond to help their fellow citizens in a time of crisis. One thing that struck me when I visited this morning is that, despite looking at how devastated and distressed people were by what has happened, was that absolute sense of community spirit, and the stories I heard about people helping one another—the paddling centre, where people come from all over the country—. They were still smiling. For me, it was very important, as the Minister, to go there and speak to people but also to hear from them, so it gives you that extra passion you need to really know that we really need to make a difference to support these people.

I think Carmarthenshire council's action is to be commended. I met with representatives of the council this morning. They were talking about their emergency fund and what they're giving per household as well. I'm acutely aware of time pressures and the need to respond and the need to support people at their time of need now. So, we're just getting that information in. As soon as we have that—talking with local authorities, and they already are in touch with my officials today to look at what has been and what the impacts are and what needs to be done—I'm sure we'll be able to respond as promptly as possible.

In terms of the detritus you mentioned from the storm and the clean-up operation, I'm sure that's something we'd be willing to consider to set aside as well. 

I would like to begin by thanking the Minister for her timely statement. I'd like to associate myself with the comments that she and Angela Burns have made, extending my sympathies to—and those of Plaid Cymru—to all those affected, as already expressed earlier by Adam Price, and particularly to the family and friends of Adam's constituent, Corey Sharpling, who tragically lost his life. I was very touched by the comments that Angela made about how many brave people have really stuck their necks out to protect themselves, their friends and their neighbours across the Mid and West Wales region at this difficult time. I'd like to concur with the comments that the Minister has made and that Angela Burns has made—the gratitude they've expressed to the emergency services, to all public services, and to local authority staff across Mid and West Wales who worked so hard over the weekend to assist those affected. I had, for example, particularly positive feedback from constituents with regard to how useful the emergency helplines run by Ceredigion and Carmarthen councils have proved to be at this very difficult time. It's very pleasant to be able to report back on an emergency situation and a response to that that really does seem to be working for people. I'm very glad that the Minister has been able to visit one of the communities affected, and I know that my colleagues Ben Lake MP, Jonathan Edwards MP and Adam Price AM will be visiting more of the areas affected on Friday. My colleague Elin Jones AM, ein Llywydd ni, for Ceredigion has particularly asked me to mention the efforts that communities themselves have made and that volunteers from the third sector have made to help with the clear-up after this devastating storm. 

This was, of course, the worst flooding faced by many of the communities in my region for 30 years, but I'm sure that the Minister will agree with me that the effects of climate change mean that these extreme events are going to become more common. Does the Minister agree with me that it is now time—? And she has mentioned co-ordination, but I think we need to take this further. Does she agree with me that it's now time for the Welsh Government to develop a climate change adaptation plan to ensure that we are fully prepared and that our communities are adequately protected? And will she undertake today to discuss the development of such a plan with colleagues across Government and to report back to the Chamber on progress? I don't mean to suggest, Llywydd, that the Welsh Government is not taking any action in this area, but I think that it is now time for us to really consider co-ordinating that action even more effectively across portfolios.

In her statement, the Minister mentions that there were communities that were successfully protected by existing flood defences, and I think we'd all join her in being very pleased about that, but she will be aware that there were situations where existing defences were breached, and not all of them long-standing defences. Will the Minister undertake today to review the Welsh Government's priorities with regard to investment in flood protection, and indeed the nature of the flood defences that we're using, in the light of these breaches?

In her statement, the Minister states that road closures were not due to failing infrastructure. I hope that she would agree with me that we need to be adapting our infrastructure to meet the needs of very changing times. I'm sure she will be aware, for example, that most of the bridges across the Teifi were closed for long periods, creating significant problems for emergency services, for example, accessing Glangwili hospital from Ceredigion. Will she commit today to reviewing with the appropriate local authorities and public bodies the resilience of infrastructure in the affected areas, particularly addressing the strength of bridges across the Tawe and the Teifi? Some of them, as she will be aware, are of a considerable age and will have been potentially adversely affected by the strength of this event.

With regard to resources, can the Minister tell us whether the Welsh Government has approached the Westminster Government, or whether you will do so, with a view to taking advantage potentially of the financial support available from the EU solidarity fund? I think this could prove to be a valuable source of additional resources at this difficult time. Can she—? And she has mentioned this, but I'd like to press her further on this—. She mentioned this in response to Angela Burns, but can she provide assurances that the Welsh Government will be assisting affected local authorities by the emergency financial assistance scheme? Llywydd, nobody would expect the Minister to put a price on that today, but I do feel that we need to seek her assurance that there will be support available, even if she can't tell us exactly how much at present.

And, finally, can the Minister tell us what support the Welsh Government will be able to offer the farming community, many of whom will face devastating losses of equipment and livestock? Diolch yn fawr. 

I thank the Member for her comprehensive contribution, and I'll do my best to address the questions that you've raised. I think you're also right again to pay tribute to and recognise the efforts put in by volunteers, by the local community, as well as the emergency services, to whom not only the local communities but I think all of us owe a debt of gratitude. And it is good to hear the positive stories too of emergency helplines working well, that prevention that's been put in place. One of the things I heard back this morning too was how some of the Natural Resources Wales alerts helped to notify people so that when they were in a flood-risk area they were able to take action to move their cars or to take certain steps to actually prevent the impact on their home and their area as well.

In terms of looking at a review of our priorities, after any event like this, when our capability and our resilience have been tested, it is only right and proper that we look at what's worked and also look at what hasn't worked and see the things that do need to be changed in future. So, we do expect that we will work now with local authorities, Natural Resources Wales, and all other stakeholders to look at what has happened and where we may need to change things for the future, because it's always right that we learn lessons and we build on the work we are doing while maintaining that commitment to flood prevention across the whole of Wales as well.

In terms of a climate change adaptation plan and flood prevention, of course, climate change is one of the factors that is considered in terms of how we map flood risk and address those priorities in our prevention within Wales as it stands, but, certainly, as the threats of climate change grow ever greater—the challenges that brings—it's only right that we consider that as a whole. I'm sure I and the Cabinet Secretary for energy will be working together closely, with other colleagues across Cabinet, on our approach to climate change adaptation going forward, which will obviously consider all things holistically, including flood prevention and mitigation as well.

In terms of emergency funding available to help, I'm sure this is something that—like I said to my colleague Angela Burns, there are already conversations taking place on that with officials and it's something that, as a Welsh Government, we are open to and sympathetic to. And whilst you're right that I can't put a figure on a number right now, right here in this Chamber, certainly we're aware of the need to press ahead with this and also to look at, actually, do we need to consider the trigger as well as part of that.

Finally, just on the point of the EU solidarity funding, my understanding at present is that this is only available when the cost of flood damage exceeds £1 billion. Obviously, all things on the table, all things need to be considered, and, obviously, you're right that any funding allocation would need to be handled through discussion by both Welsh Government and UK Government officers and Ministers. To my awareness, no discussions have yet taken place, but, obviously, that would depend on the outcome of the reviews that are taking place in Wales at the moment in all the communities affected.

Thank you for your statement, Minister. Along with Angela Burns, my heartfelt sympathies go to the family and friends of Corey Sharpling, who sadly died in a landslip. And also my sympathies go to other people in the UK who died or who have suffered injury in the recent storm. I'm sure that all Members in this place will do our utmost to assist them and those people whose homes and businesses have been damaged by the high winds and flooding caused by storm Callum. I'd also like to echo the thanks and appreciation to the emergency services and others and members of the public who worked to help their friends, neighbours and other people through the difficulties caused by the storm.

I appreciate that some communities will have benefited greatly from flood defences that have already been put in place, but, in some places, those defences have clearly been overwhelmed, and, understandably, residents will be concerned. So, can you confirm what steps you will take to review flood defences, both in communities that already have them and where residents and businesses may feel they're missing out?

You've acknowledged in your statement that animals were caught up in the flooding, and there have been occasions of sheep having been washed away and other animals being stranded. I'd like to ask you what support the Welsh Government can offer those farmers who've lost livestock and now have injured livestock because of the flooding. There are also reports of horses having to be rescued from the flooding itself. So, are you satisfied that the correct level of resources and adequate information are there to help horse owners and owners of similar animals and farmers as well to plan for, and deal with, the consequences of flooding? What conversations are you having with farmers regarding their role in preventing and mitigating the risk of flooding, and what support will you offer them so that they can actually fulfil that role?

Llandysul Paddlers Canoe Club is a community-based enterprise and has already started fundraising to address the damage caused, which they estimate at some £200,000. Can the Welsh Government consider offering some level of support for community initiatives affected by severe weather? And the effective provision of utilities is a life-and-death measure for some people—in particular, hospitals. So, what discussions have you had with utility companies about their response to the storm and any challenges they faced that Welsh Government can address for the future? Thank you.

I thank the Member for her contribution and her questions.

In terms of looking at—. You referred to how flood defences have been in place and have worked and to assess whether things have worked as well as we would have liked them to do. As I said previously, it's our duty, when anything like this happens, that we should review and assess what has happened when we get all the information in from local authorities and Natural Resources Wales and all the stakeholders and communities involved, and make sure that we're able to learn from that and revise accordingly, and that is something that I will take very seriously, as the Minister for environment, working alongside my relevant Government and Cabinet colleagues. So, that is something we will look at and will feed into our future plans in terms of when we look at where our priorities are for prevention. 

You're right to point out, and I mentioned in my statement, the impact on landowners and the incidents of some sheep, and farmers. In terms of how our—. I think it's important for us to work with farmers and landowners, who understand flood risk and understand land management in their areas, which is why, when we're looking at updating our natural strategy for flood prevention, which is ongoing at the moment, landowners and farmers will be part of that as well, to make sure that we can take into account and learn from all the points that you've raised in terms of land management, and animal and horse owners as well.

You mentioned the paddlers club and I actually met them today in Llandysul and saw what they were doing in terms of the clean-up operation and how people have come from all over the country and their crowdfunding. In terms of this—you know, we need to work with all the stakeholders in the community and work, as a Welsh Government, to see how we're best placed to give support going forward.

Thank you, Minister, for your statement. As I'm sure you will know, my constituency was especially affected by storm Callum, with Aberdare being widely described as the town hardest hit by flooding. In Rhondda Cynon Taf, around 40 homes and 29 businesses have been flooded, many of which are in my constituency. And, in Penrhiwceiber, over 30 people who were trapped on a train in rising flood water had to be rescued by South Wales Fire and Rescue Service using an inflatable walkway.

I want to repeat the comments of other Members earlier in offering their thanks to the emergency services, to council workers, volunteers and others for their prompt actions, and also to pass on my sympathies to all those who have been affected. I welcome your comments regarding giving full consideration to granting emergency financial assistance to local authorities, but I want to make the point that it's not just about the short-term immediate expenditure. In RCT, for example, £100,000 has already been spent on that and there's another £100,000 earmarked for investigative and clearance work. So, will you ensure that you give consideration to long-term measures such as that which can help to mitigate the effects of flooding and save money in the long term?

Secondly, we know, Minister, that afforestation of upland areas is one of the most effective and environmentally sustainable ways to mitigate flooding in our Valleys communities. Indeed, if you look to the Lake District, following storm Desmond in 2015, the National Trust planted 1,400 trees there, which are already helping to prevent run-off and reduce flooding. So, with NRW having cleared much land in the past few years, such as at Glenboi in my constituency, due to ash dieback and larch disease, and replanting in some key areas not having yet taken place, what more can be done to accelerate the crucial process of afforestation?

I thank the Member for her questions and contribution, especially on behalf of your constituents who've also been impacted by the flood at the weekend. My every sympathy for anybody who has been impacted by it, because we see how distressing it is to see your home or your business and your community impacted in that way, and then the aftermath of the clear-up as well.

You make a very good point in terms of afforestation. Natural flood-risk management is definitely something to be considered when it comes to reducing flood risk, and that will form part of our natural strategy, which we're compiling and updating at the moment. That will include things such as flood storage areas, tree planting, use of woody debris and leaky dams and reintroducing meanders, so it's of course something that—. I fully agree with the Member that this is an important way in terms of how we tackle flood management in the future.

Because of the support now with the clear-up operation and the immediate costs that need to be covered—. There's obviously work that needs to be done immediately, but you're absolutely right to talk about long-term measures, because that's the whole point of having—that's why we look at flood prevention and flood-risk management, because we want to be in the best position we can be in the future, not just to prevent flooding to protect properties and businesses and homes, but for people's peace of mind, too. Because, when you've been impacted once by a flood, it's always going to be there on your mind every time there's heavy rainfall. Every time there's something like that, that is always going to be playing on your mind, and that's something that really hit home to me from the people I visited today. So, it's something that we really need to do. That's why it's so important that we don't think just short term; it is a long-term strategy in terms of how we protect people in Wales.

Minister, thank you for your statement today, and I also join in other Members' comments and condolences to the families and those affected by the—I think that 'horrific events' isn't too strong, really, when you see some of the images that have come out from across Wales. When death is obviously one of the effects of those events, then they are horrific, to say the least. 

I'd like to just press you on two issues, if I may, Minister. In your statement you talk about how flood risk management remains one of your priorities, and I fully endorse that. But yet, in your remit letter, which the leader of the opposition did touch on during First Minister's questions, of the five points for you as a Minister—not the Cabinet Secretary, but for you specifically as a Minister—flood prevention is not one of those five points that is in your remit letter for this year. Recycling is, woodlands are, and tackling poor air quality, improving the understanding of the value of nature, and reversing the decline in biodiversity. So, it's not unreasonable to ask: why was it missing from your remit letter to NRW, given that they're the body who obviously oversee the planning and implementation of flood defences around Wales?

Yesterday, the First Minister did indicate that money would be available. Again, I appreciate that you're not in a position to put a figure to that, and it would be wrong, in fact, such a short time after, for you to actually say, 'This is x amount available.' It would be worth reflecting on how much will be available. But can you confirm that the money that the First Minister was talking of will be new money to your department, or will it have to be money that will have to be found from within your current resources? Because, as I said, the First Minister clearly did identify money would be made available, so that's the most senior person in Government saying that, giving that commitment, but I think it's important to understand—and the finance Secretary is in his chair—whether he is making new money available to you, and, in which case, that would be a very welcome addition to your budget.

Can I thank the Member for his contribution and his words of sympathy and support for all those impacted? You raise, in terms of questioning, whether this is a priority for this Government, I can categorically make clear and say this is a priority, not just for myself, but for this Government. And you raised the remit letter. When I came into post and announced the statement, I outlined a number of priorities, five of which you listed there. I also made clear in that statement that flood prevention was a key priority that interlinked and interwove a lot of that. So, it is absolutely 100 per cent a priority for this Government, which is why we're investing £350 million in this Assembly term, and £54 million in this financial year alone, and that will not change.

In terms of how we go forward, the First Minister said yesterday that funding would be made available in these circumstances of flooding. Well, it goes back to what I've said already. We need to look at what's happened, review as quickly as we possibly can, working with all stakeholders and local authorities, with NRW, to look at what works and what we need to prioritise and change. Potentially, it's perhaps—. I'm of the view that this is absolutely a priority, and we need to make sure that, despite the backdrop of austerity, money is coming in to flooding as well. Theresa May says austerity is over, so if you want to pick up the phone and tell her to give us a call and give us some more money so that we can get some money towards flooding—

Is it new money? Is it new money?

But—.

Carry on, Minister, you don't need to listen to anybody if you choose not to.

Diolch, Llywydd. It certainly is a priority for this Government to ensure that we have the funding and the priority needed available to make sure that we address flood prevention and mitigation in Wales, and that we can reassure and provide peace of mind to all communities that have been impacted by flooding.

We've seen storm Callum and the dreadful destruction, floods everywhere, and tragedy, as mentioned earlier. The bay was flooded. Yet, the disputed area around Roath brook remains perfectly well and not flooded at all, so my question to you would be: do you think that you can spend the £0.5 million earmarked for the Roath brook area better elsewhere, and will you reconsider?

I was banking on the Member bringing up this within this statement. Look, the Member will be well aware of the situation now in terms of Roath brook, where NRW are working with the residents group there, and the work has been paused following the residents doing some modelling work of their own. That remains the case. I, in fact, visited the site just a few weeks ago to see the work that's been done to date, and Roath Mill Gardens, where there hasn't been work done. That is something that's a separate matter. That's where it is. It's paused. That's being considered, and I expect NRW to come back with some proposals on that.

But whilst I recognise the emotion and the concerns around the proposals for Roath park, and particularly the impact in terms of the tree removal, I think, for me, and for many communities across Wales—and we've seen the impact of flooding over the past weekend—it's absolutely right that we should consider and we should invest, and I think people need flood protection and prevention. We shouldn't shy away from—. There are people who have seen their homes wrecked and their businesses wrecked this weekend.

Not where Roath brook is. It's not flooded in decades.

I'm speaking now. Tell that to the people who—. Flood prevention is so important, and it's an investment in these communities. Roath brook is a separate matter. Today, we are talking about those communities that have been affected by storm Callum and how this Government will stand up and invest in those communities to prevent further floods and to give peace of mind.

Thank you, Minister.

The next item is item 4, which has been postponed until 6 November.

Which brings us to item 5, a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance: an update on regional investment after Brexit. I call on the Cabinet Secretary to make the statement, Mark Drakeford.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Since the 2016 referendum, the Welsh Government has been engaged in a public debate about replacing European Union regional investment once the UK exists the EU. I’m grateful to the Chairs of the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee and the Finance Committee for their work in informing this debate.

Last month, the Finance Committee published its inquiry report into preparations for replacing EU funding for Wales, and we will respond formally to that shortly. I welcome the committee’s support for a made-in-Wales approach. It reinforces our clearly expressed message that the UK Government has no mandate to extend the proposed and ill-defined shared prosperity fund to Wales.

Llywydd, in July of this year, the Welsh Government published an independent report analysing the responses to our policy paper 'Regional Investment in Wales after Brexit'. That paper set out principles and a direction of travel to guide the replacement of European structural and investment funds in Wales, and received widespread support. I believe there is an emerging consensus here in Wales on how we want to see replacement funding work, and an appetite to get on with it. Amongst the key characteristics of that future is that it requires a made-in-Wales policy framework focused on outcomes, one that addresses regional inequalities and is guided by the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and the regionalisation set out in our economic action plan.

We need a system that focuses on functional Welsh regions, providing them and local areas with the authority to make more decisions; a system that is less bureaucratic, but still rooted in the partnership model that has served us well; a system that is based on an open rulebook, but with less rigidity in geography and in purpose; a system that provides a full return on public investment but that is proportionate in arrangements for access, monitoring and audit.

I've held detailed discussions with my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport to develop our thinking, so that we can be confident, for example, that opportunities in rural Wales are not missed, and can ensure that this vital investment in Wales is central to the approach contained in the economic action plan, where public investment is predicated on delivering public goods.

So, Llywydd, we continue to press the UK Government for the £370 million annually we'd receive for our European structural and investment funds to be replaced in full so Wales will not be a penny worse off, as promised so often during the referendum campaign. We also expect decisions on how and where replacement funding in Wales is deployed to remain here in Wales—as has been the case for the last 18 years and which is clearly set out in the devolution settlement. There is simply no support in Wales for a centralised or UK-administered replacement fund. It is wrong in principle, it is undeliverable in practice and it is time that UK Ministers understood just that.

Llywydd, it's not my main purpose to focus primarily on what has been achieved in those areas that have benefited from EU funds, but nor is it in Wales’s interests to undermine or under-represent what has been put in place with the aid of that investment: a sharp fall in economic inactivity and rise in employment rates; a dramatic improvement in the skills of our people, with a major decline in the proportion of the working-age population with no qualifications; and a narrowing of the gap between different parts of Wales, and a narrowing of the gap between the Welsh economy and the rest of the United Kingdom.

The £370 million we receive annually from the European Union matters to Wales because the livelihoods of our people, communities and businesses are at stake. During this programme period alone, EU projects have already helped to create 8,400 jobs, helped 11,000 people into work, and supported people to achieve over 68,000 qualifications. People’s lives are being altered for the better, families are growing up in homes with work, and people are being supported to take up education and training.

And this is happening, in part, through the 970 new enterprises created and the 5,400 businesses supported by EU-funded projects. Those will generate tax revenue and jobs well into the future, helping us to deliver a more prosperous Wales. 

Now, Llywydd, as we look to that future, Welsh partners have highlighted two key concerns around future arrangements: that replacement funding could be directed away from regional development, and that the loss of a multi-annual approach will prevent effective long-term planning. To address those concerns, I would like to reaffirm commitments I have made in evidence to the Finance Committee and in this Chamber. 

Firstly, any replacement funding will be invested to support regional development and to reduce inequality. It will not be subsumed into other core Welsh Government budgets. The economic action plan sets the focus for this approach, and I continue to work together with the economy Secretary on this.

Secondly, I can give an assurance that we will continue to adopt a multi-annual approach towards investing replacement funding to maintain a long-term focus on the structural challenges in our economy and labour market.

In all of this, we will draw on the significant expertise of our partners across Wales in designing and delivering a new made-in-Wales approach. Our approach to date has been collaborative and outward looking, and today I can announce two developments to strengthen this further.

Firstly, we will establish a regional investment steering group, which will draw on the wealth of knowledge and experience in our businesses, local authorities, our academic institutions, the third sector and the wider public services across Wales. The group will work closely with existing regional partnerships, including drawing on the leadership of the chief regional officers established under the economic action plan. This will ensure that our new approach aligns with wider economic development planning.

Secondly, Llywydd, I can announce this afternoon £350,000-worth of funding from the European transition fund to establish a new partnership with the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development to inform both our future regional investment approach and the implementation of the economic action plan. We may be leaving the European Union, but that makes the obligation to remain an open and connected nation all the more vital. Working with the OECD will reinforce our ability to sustain vital relationships with other European countries and regions and will ensure that international best practice is built into our future arrangements. The economy Secretary and I will announce further details of this new investment shortly. 

In the meantime, Llywydd, we cannot wait for meaningful discussions on successor funding arrangements to commence with the UK Government. These may not take place, we now learn, until the 2019 spending review. We must act now to develop, in genuine partnership, a new approach that ensures investment aligns with the wider economic development interventions of this Government. The Welsh Government is strategically best positioned to administer these funds, and to achieve this outcome.

Llywydd, the coming year will define our future relationship with the European Union. It will also see us develop arrangements to deliver economic growth, and challenge regional inequalities. I am grateful for the opportunity to have updated Members this afternoon, and I look forward to sharing further information on progress in future.

Can I thank the Minister for his statement this afternoon? Although, I have to say, I find it bizarre that he's making this statement when the UK Government has already committed to consulting on the shape of the new UK shared prosperity fund in the future, and has also given a commitment to making sure that it respects the devolution settlement in terms of the way that that fund is going to be administered. I find it very strange that we have the Cabinet Secretary for Finance coming here today, telling us that he's going to spend yet more precious taxpayers' money setting up a parallel universe, as far as the distribution of regional funds is concerned, through the establishment of the regional investment steering group—yet another quango, frankly, with more jobs for the boys and girls that the crony Government that we've got wants to be able to distribute.

Let me put on record right now that I have absolutely no faith whatsoever in the ability of the Welsh Labour-led Government to distribute any funds across Wales in a fair and just manner to those parts of the country that need them. Just look at the local government settlement—just look at the local government settlement that we had last week: it's very clear that you like to distribute cash to certain places in Wales, to the detriment of others, including north Wales, mid Wales, and west Wales. In fact, what you like to do as a Government is to distribute the cash to your friends in the Labour Party, in other parts, in terms of local authorities that are run. So, I would be grateful if you could give us more clarity on what the precise costs of this body—this regional investment steering group—are going to be, and why you are jumping the gun in terms of making these statements now, when you are yet to receive any kind of consultation document from the UK Government.

We all know that the Welsh Government wants to try to crow about the success of European structural funds to date. But the reality is that they've been far from a success. In fact, we've gone backwards in terms of our relative gross value added in the UK, as a proportion of UK GVA. That's an embarrassment. The only reason that the jobless totals have been coming down in these areas is because we've got a Tory Government over the border, in London, that has been bringing the jobless total down, creating thousands of jobs each and every week since we got into power back in 2010. So, I'm very disappointed that you're jumping the gun, that you're making this statement today, that you're going to be spending yet more hard-earned cash that belongs to taxpayers in a wasteful way, setting up this parallel system, when it's absolutely likely to be completely unnecessary.

Will you accept that there has been a failure over the past two decades in terms of the way that you've invested—as a Government, taken the lead in investing these European structural funds? We know that there's been this failure to lift Wales out of poverty. We're still the poorest part of the UK as far as the figures demonstrate, in terms of the European regions within the United Kingdom. That is diabolical. It's an embarrassment. It's a shame that Wales is in this situation, but that's where we're at as a result of your Government's decisions in terms of the management of EU structural funds so far.

Can I also ask how you will ensure that the different regions within Wales have as local decision making as possible in the future? You've already heard from the UK Government that they're going to respect the devolution settlement in terms of these arrangements. But how are you going to ensure that any cash that becomes yours to distribute, under any future UK prosperity fund, is actually going to reach all parts of Wales and will deal with the poverty that there is across the country? We do know, of course, that we have a new opportunity with the UK shared prosperity fund to reach out into poorer communities that are not in west Wales and the Valleys. At the moment, we have this geographical straitjacket, which we are in as a result of EU decision making, which forces us to spend the money in certain places to the detriment of those places in east Wales.

So, I wonder whether you can tell us: is the removal of that straitjacket something that you feel that Wales can benefit from? How do you intend to make sure that those poorer communities in other parts of Wales are going to get the cash that they need in order to raise prosperity levels? And do you accept that simply having more of the same, which I think is sort of what you're proposing, is not going to work and is going to fail again in the future? 

Well, Llywydd, I'll do my best to answer some of those questions. I'm afraid it wasn't the Member's finest hour—that contribution. He's completely wrong in relation to the shared prosperity fund. We couldn't possibly wait for it: we have no timetable for it, we have no details about it. I do not for a moment believe that we have received sufficient assurances that it will respect the devolution settlement. My fear remains that his Government's idea of a shared prosperity fund is to take money that comes to Wales today and to share it out to other parts of the United Kingdom. I await to see what happens, and I look forward to discussing this with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury tomorrow.  

He is quite wrong, of course, in relation to the impact of European funds here in Wales: they have allowed us to do so many things that have been to the benefit of Welsh communities. And his Government's stewardship of the UK economy, far from being the reason why jobs and economic inactivity are moving in the right direction in Wales, if you look at their record elsewhere, had we remained in the European Union, three new English regions would now have qualified for European assistance as a result of his Government's stewardship of the United Kingdom economy as a whole. 

As far as the regional investment group is concerned, it will draw on those individuals in businesses, in local authorities, in those parts of the Welsh economy, which regularly Members of his party urge us to make sure that we hear their voices and act on their advice. This is far from being a parallel universe: this will be an opportunity for people beyond the Assembly, who have relevant experience and expertise, to make sure that the things that we do in the Welsh Government are informed by their direct, everyday experience of making the Welsh economy a success, and I look forward to receiving their advice. 

I'll ignore, for the moment, Llywydd, the shameful remarks that the Member made about the local government settlement. He knows perfectly well— 

Cronyism. 

He knows perfectly well that the formula for the distribution of funds—. I hear the Member shouting at me, Llywydd, 'cronyism' and I'm keen to read that into the Record, because it is a shameful accusation that he makes and he needs to substantiate the sorts of accusations that he makes. It is absolutely not sufficient for him to sit there and smear words across the floor of the Assembly when he knows perfectly well—and we know that he knows perfectly well—that the funding formula through which funds to local authorities are distributed is not made up by the Welsh Government; it is the formula agreed— 

Repeating an accusation, Darren Millar, doesn't make it true. I think you've made your point and the Minister is responding. 

Llywydd, it is certainly utterly bereft of truth on this occasion, because that funding formula is not a formula of the Welsh Government: it is a formula signed off every year by an expert group and then by Welsh local authorities themselves, including leaders of north Wales authorities, who were round the table in the meeting where that formula was agreed. 

Let me try and rescue a small number of points from what the Member had to say. Indeed, had he been listening he would have found that they were answered already, because one of the things that we will be able to do with funding the other side of the European Union is to make better, more flexible use of it. The geographical constraints that inevitably come with European funding will not be there to that extent in the future, and it is one of the advantages we will be able to put to work.

I agree with what he said about local decision making featuring as much as possible in the future deployment of European funds. I believe there will still be some national priorities that we will wish to set, but there will be regional working very importantly at the heart of the way we use these funds, and there will be more room for decisions to be made at a very local level, often drawing on the experience of the LEADER programme, for example, which the European Union has helped us to develop here in Wales. Far from being more of the same, Llywydd, the whole exercise is designed to learn the positive lessons from the programme so far and then to take advantage of new possibilities that we will have for regional investment, provided the money comes to Wales and the decisions are made here in Wales. 

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement today. Can I say I find it quite amusing—that's probably not the right word—when Conservatives squawk and croak about funding formulas, when Wales has been shafted by the Barnett formula for many, many years with very little protest from the benches opposite?

Clearly, there's an agreement between Plaid Cymru and Welsh Government on the fundamental principle in terms of regional policy, that leaving the European Union should not mean that Wales is left short, either financially or in terms of responsibilities. As the Cabinet Secretary has said, Wales receives an annual amount of £370 million in European structural and investment funds and we should not lose a single penny of that money. That was the promise made by the separatists during the referendum and they should keep their promises. 

It is however worth remembering that Wales qualifies for so much regional aid from the EU because of its historic economic neglect at the hands of Westminster Governments of all shades, who have never fully addressed our economic needs. They have some cheek in Westminster now if they're showing an interest in stealing powers back over regional policy, when they have repeatedly shown no interest in regional policy, not just in Wales but in deprived parts of England as well and Scotland, over decades, particularly since they intentionally deindustrialised our communities. 

Llywydd, the stakes could not be higher when it comes to regional aid and the Welsh economy. It was sober reading recently to pick up the report by the Financial Inclusion Centre. In it, they list Wales as being one of the most vulnerable regions and nations in the UK to leaving the European Union when it comes to regional policy and wider economic policy. They said, and I quote:

'In the worst case scenario, some of the most vulnerable regions'—

including Wales

—'could face a "triple whammy"...a very significant loss of potential economic output...the loss of EU funding. Third, unless fiscal transfers from stronger parts of the UK economy can be maintained at the same level to mitigate these impacts, the combined economic shock could be severe.' 

Those are the words of the Financial Inclusion Centre report.

In terms of today's statement, I welcome the announcement that steps will be taken to create the infrastructure for a new Welsh regional policy post separation. I cannot however help but be concerned that all of this preparation will be done only to have the rug pulled from under its feet when the Westminster Government announced that regional policy will be centralised in London. I will be interested to know what the Cabinet Secretary makes of the comments expressed by the Prime Minister during the Tory Party conference to the media. As far as I could understand from what she was saying, she was insinuating that far from simply providing the money promised to Wales, new regional policy through the so-called shared prosperity fund would include a UK rulebook, decided in Westminster, enforced by Westminster, and spending will be decided upon in Whitehall as well. I found that very alarming. Far from being—. If we want to talk about parallel universes, talking about guaranteeing every single penny and power we have now goes completely contrary to what the Prime Minister said in statements to the media, as far as I could read in any case. 

In his statement, the Cabinet Secretary says that he does not expect meaningful discussions on successor funding arrangements to take place until the 2019 spending review. Can he clarify, does he believe that there won't be any discussions about the policy itself, or does he mean how that policy would be financed? I.e. is he expecting there to be meaningful discussion on the policy, i.e. that it is devolved and shall remain devolved, and then we will have a better idea for the precise nature of the funding at around the time of the 2019 spending review? Because we need to know fairly swiftly exactly the policy intentions of the UK Government. It's not acceptable to kick this can down the end of the road, pushing devolved Governments, as they are, into making preparations based on the best-case scenario, when I unfortunately fear that the worst-case scenario might come to pass. So, are formal discussions under way? Are more scheduled? Is there a clear timetable for deciding the shape of future regional policy as soon as possible?

Also, in terms of the wider political debate that will happen now in the UK as this becomes an issue of increasing importance, can I ask the Cabinet Secretary: what is the policy of the UK Labour Party? Are they going to be batting in the same team as the Welsh Labour Government here when it comes to regional policy on the Labour front benches in Westminster? Will they vote down any attempts in the House of Commons to take regional policy powers away from Wales? What discussions has he had with party counterparts at the UK level in that respect?

Crucially to all of this, if there are discussions under way, or if discussions will take place soon, can the Cabinet Secretary make a cast-iron promise to Members here today that, in any discussions on negotiations with the UK Government, he will not give our money away in the way he gave away some of our powers the last time he struck a deal with Westminster?

Llywydd, can I begin by thanking Steffan Lewis for the way he welcomed the fundamental principles that I've outlined this afternoon? I agree entirely with what he said about the way in which Wales is doubly vulnerable to the impact of particularly a hardline Brexit on our economy, and then to the potential loss of funding.

I heard the Prime Minister's comments on the shared prosperity fund. To be truthful, I thought she sounded as though she was as much in the dark about what that fund might be about as the rest of us. Her answers seemed to me more designed to cover up the fact that she wasn't quite sure what was going on than to offer us any real clarity on it.

Steffan Lewis is right to say that I was making a distinction between policy matters, which we may hear something about during the rest of this calendar year, and funding arrangements, on which I think we will have to wait until the comprehensive spending review to have any clarity.

The Member asked if there are any formal discussions going on. I can tell him that I have raised our concerns previously with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and with the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, and that this was raised again last week at the Joint Ministerial Committee on Europe by my Scottish colleague Ben Macpherson, where I was able to, again, express the Welsh Government's disquiet at proposals for a shared prosperity fund. And it is on the agenda again tomorrow morning, when I will be in discussions with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, both on Wales-only matters and in the finance Ministers' quadrilateral. I go from that meeting to a meeting with members of Keir Starmer's team, and to discuss matters of Brexit at the House of Commons. The Member can be sure that I will be raising the shared prosperity fund there as well.

Llywydd, no powers have gone away from Wales—let us be completely clear about that. All the powers that reside in Wales as a result of the 1999 devolution settlement remain here today. The Member could not name a single power that, as he said, was given away, because none were. They all remain here in this National Assembly, and none can move from here without our prior agreement. However, I give him the assurance that he is looking for that, of course, this Welsh Labour Government will not agree to any proposals that result in fewer funds coming to Wales as a result of our membership of the United Kingdom than we have benefited from as a result of our membership of the European Union.

Can I extend my support for the finance Secretary in much of what he says in his statement? I don't think it's at all unreasonable for him to say that it would be unacceptable for Wales to be a penny worse off as a result of the Brexit settlement, whatever that might be, although I disagree with him saying 'as promised during the referendum campaign'. The only people who could promise that during the referendum campaign were the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, both of whom, of course, were remainers. But I do not think it unreasonable that, as a result of Brexit, Wales should be not a penny worse off; in fact, we should better off, because for every £1 that we get back of British taxpayers' money from Brussels, we have to send out £2 in the first place. So, it's not EU money, it's British taxpayers' money, albeit funnelled back to us through the aegis of EU institutions. 

I would like to raise the question of the effect of the way much of this money has been spent over the years. As Darren Millar pointed out, in fact in Wales we've gone backwards in the last 20 years in terms of relative prosperity. In 1998, the average gross value added in Wales was 74.8 per cent of the UK average, and in 2016 it was 72.7 per cent, so we've actually, relatively speaking, gone backwards. And, of course, we do have two of the poorest parts of Europe within our country. The Gwent Valleys is second from bottom with an average income of £14,700-odd, 56 per cent of the UK average; Anglesey is even worse, with an average income of only £13,600-odd, 52 per cent of the UK average. We've had significant sums of money spent on regional policy over the years, but they don't seem to have done a great deal to disturb the relativities.

Therefore, I'm not sure that it's the correct approach to ring-fence this money  that we will have the right to administer after Brexit, and I'm not an admirer, generally, of hypothecation of revenues, because priorities change from year to year and new needs appear, and the relativities between different needs also change. So, I think if the Welsh Government was to commit for a significant period to maintaining the importance of the regional aid budget within Wales, then it might be closing its eyes to other opportunities as to how it might spend the money in a more productive way to achieve the social objectives and economic objectives that the Government has.

The statement goes on to say towards the end that  

'It will also see us develop arrangements to deliver economic growth and reduce regional inequalities.'

We can all support that objective, but there are other ways in which, perhaps, that can be achieved, and I would like the Government to be more imaginative than it has been able to be in the past.

I'm fully in sympathy with the Cabinet Secretary in wanting to get on with the job, and not waiting for the UK Government in its wisdom to hand down tablets of stone whenever it feels convenient to do so. Theresa May has given a whole new meaning to the word 'torpidity', I think, since she has been Prime Minister, and the conduct of the Brexit negotiations, if we can exalt them with that description, is proof positive of that, as she persists in her unthinking, Sisyphean relentlessness in pushing boulders to the tops of hills, only to have them rolled down back on top of her and ultimately, I believe, to flatten her. But I think it is right that the Welsh Government should take the lead and put more pressure by taking positive action to force, if they can, the UK Government to get on with taking rational decisions as to how the future for Wales might be best administered. It's a mystery to me that the UK Government cannot simply say, 'Yes, you will get your £370 million a year', because the money is there—we will be getting it back from Brussels, and the United Kingdom Government, I think, has no moral right to say that there is some doubt about this. It's creating uncertainty not just for Wales, but also an unnecessary uncertainty, I think, in the minds even of Conservative Members elsewhere in the United Kingdom. The Government cannot simply remove levels of uncertainty that could be removed without any damage whatever to the Government's overall objective, whatever that might be, in the course of the Brexit negotiations.     

One of the ways in which we could perhaps spend some of the money that is currently allocated to regional policy better is on energy prices, reducing the impact on specific industries of energy prices. We know that, for example, the steel industry, in effect, has got 85 per cent of the burden of the extra charges imposed as a result of climate change policies on its back, and without that rebate, then the steel industry in the whole of the United Kingdom would be flat on its back. So, there are unintended consequences of some policies that could be addressed as a result of considering other ways of spending this money. I can't go into it in any more detail now, but I wonder if the Cabinet Secretary, bearing in mind that we all have the same ultimate objectives here—that we share the desire for Wales to be much more prosperous than it has been in the past and, even within Wales, for inequalities to be addressed—. But that I think requires us to be as flexible as possible in funding arrangements post Brexit, when we have the levers of power in our own hands. 

I thank the Member for those remarks. By and large, I think he was endorsing some key aspects of the policy I set out this afternoon. I understand the point he made about the word 'promise', but when the leader of the Conservative Party in Wales says to people in Wales that there is an absolute guarantee that Wales would not lose out by a penny, I wonder what more has to be said to make that a promise. It sounded like a promise to many people in Wales and many people in Wales voted on the basis of what they regarded as a promise. 

I thank the Member for what he said about a sensible proposition that the Welsh Government should take the lead in making decisions about the way such funding should come to Wales in the future, and I share what he said—it is a mystery to me as well why a Government that has enough quarrels on its hands, surely, and enough difficult issues to sort out, cannot make a straightforward decision that would be simple to make and simple to execute, and simply say, as people in Wales were promised, that the money that came to Wales under the European Union would come to us the other side of it. 

I listened carefully to what the Member said about hypothecation, because as a finance Minister I tend to start from a point of view of being uneasy at hypothecation as well. We took a very conscious decision in the Welsh Government to say in advance that money that came to Wales today for regional economic development purposes would be retained for that purpose the other side of the European Union. We did so because there is a real confidence issue out there in the sector, amongst people who are running projects, bringing forward plans, that the things that they have been able to rely on in the past may not be there for them in the future. The commitment I made in today's statement, to say that that money would be retained for regional economic development purposes, and we would guarantee it over a multi-annual period, is designed to sustain confidence in the sector that the long-term plans that they have put in place will be honoured through this Government.

Where I think the Member made an important point is that we will have some additional flexibilities in the way that money can be used in the future. Whether it stretches all the way to using the same money to sustain or to create lower energy prices, I probably doubt, but I do think that there will be opportunities to use that money in a way that avoids some of the rigidities of the previous set of arrangements. In that sense, we might get the benefits both of hypothecation in terms of its confidence building but also to be able to use that money more flexibly, as Neil Hamilton said in his closing remarks.   

I welcome this very important statement and I welcome the fact that the Cabinet Secretary is setting out the principles that he sees will be used in future regional investment in Wales. I just think it's very important to set up these principles now because we've been waiting far too long to hear the details of this shared prosperity fund. And, again, I think that would be something quite simple for the Government in Westminster to do, to make real efforts to consult and find out exactly what's going on and end this uncertainty. I think it's very important that, as the Cabinet Secretary says, confidence is given to those people who are running projects and are making long-term plans, that they know that there is certainty from what the Government here plans to do. I'm very glad, too, that the Cabinet Secretary has pointed out the huge benefits we have had from European structural funds. Of course, we have had benefits from other European funds, such as Erasmus+ exchanges, Horizon 2020 and of course the European Investment Bank, which has brought huge benefits to Wales. So, I'm sure that the Cabinet Secretary would comment on the benefits of those other European benefits.

Before going into other details from the statement, would he agree that it's absolutely crucial that we maximise the use of the current EU funds before we actually do leave the EU? Because those funds are still being distributed up to the point that we actually leave the EU, and they will be continuing beyond the date, well beyond the date, that we leave the EU—probably up until 2023.

I know that the Cabinet Secretary agrees that we do have the history and the expertise here in Wales. We have the expertise of having been involved in structural funds for so many years, and of course our knowledge and the way we've operated the structural funds have changed over those years, moving from a multiplicity of smaller projects to fewer, larger projects. And I think it is really important that this experience that we've got is maximised to ensure that we get the maximum benefit post leaving the EU. So, I do welcome the steering group, and I think it's crucial that we use all the expertise that is here in Wales. I also welcome the £350,000 from the European transition fund. I think that the Cabinet Secretary is thinking creatively ahead, trying to see what we can do to minimise the damage that will be done by leaving Europe.

Finally, I would particularly welcome his commitment to multi-annual funding. I think we've all had experience of the problems of short-term funding, which so many people have suffered from—so many different projects. And that has been one of the great benefits of the European funding, that it has been multi-annual. So, I particularly welcome that commitment from the Cabinet Secretary.

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, I thank Julie Morgan very much for those remarks. They reflect the experience that she has chairing the programme monitoring committee under the current round of European funding, where the benefits of partnership working and the ability to call on the advice of experts in the field are very much part of the way that we have done things here in Wales. And, in that sense, Julie Morgan is absolutely right that we need to maximise the lessons that we can learn from our experience so far to make sure that we go on doing things in ways that have proved successful, while taking opportunities to do things better still. I want to thank her and all those who sit on the PMC for what they are doing to make maximum use of current funding.

Here let me say, as I try to every time, that we have always welcomed the decision that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made to guarantee those funds and the more recent announcement he has made about extending that guarantee to the very end of the current round. In the sense of what I said earlier about confidence in the sector, that has been a helpful announcement, and I'm happy to recognise that this afternoon. We will be using European funding up until 2023 under the current round, and we'll be accounting for it up until 2025, so making good use of that is really important.

And Julie Morgan is absolutely right: we cannot wait for the UK Government to move on all of this. We have pressed them time after time to make sure that we have an ongoing relationship with the European Investment Bank the other side of our membership of the European Union; we have contributed some expert advice from officials here who have real understanding of the way in which that could be brought about, and we're still waiting to hear anything about the way in which that relationship can be formed for the future.

Part of the reason why I am pleased to be able to announce today funding to draw on the advice of the OECD is that that will give us here in Wales a new set of avenues into those European union networks that Julie Morgan mentioned, so that we are able to sustain the benefits that we have had from regional working, from learning from other parts of Europe, and for making sure that the way we do things here in Wales is informed by the very best practice from elsewhere.

Cabinet Secretary, thank you for your statement on regional investment after Brexit, and thank you for acknowledging the work of the Finance Committee in its report, 'Preparations for replacing EU funding for Wales'—key recommendations, which, of course, will be of no surprise, leading with the priority of negotiations with the UK Government to secure the best possible funding deal to ensure Wales is not a penny worse off post Brexit, as laid out in 'Securing Wales' Future', which has stood the test of time over the past two years.

I also want to raise questions on funding prospects post Brexit in relation to the UK shared prosperity fund, particularly focusing on the frustration that we've had, both in the Finance Committee and, indeed, in the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee, about the lack of engagement in shaping, as you say, an opportunity to help shape—the Welsh Government, the National Assembly—this fund. The Finance Committee did receive a letter from the Secretary of State for Wales last week that comments on our inquiry's report. In his letter, the Secretary of State refers to the UK shared prosperity fund, and he says 'we intend to consult' on this 'publicly...before the end of 2018'.

Well, when the Secretary of State was invited earlier this year to attend the committee on this inquiry, he declined that invitation, saying he didn't think it necessary for him to attend in person, but telling us that this was a priority for Government and that 'they will engage with you at the earliest opportunity'. Well, that was back in May; we're now in October with this letter drawing our intention, indeed, to a written statement on 24 July by none other than our former colleague Assembly Member Lord Nick Bourne, who made a statement on 24 July. And he did, in his statement, refer to the UK shared prosperity fund in the devolved nations, saying that the UK Government will:

'respect the devolution settlements...and will engage the devolved administrations to ensure the fund works for places across the UK.'

Unusual terminology in terms of the relations that we would—in terms of respect and negotiations between Welsh Government and UK Government. So, I would be grateful if the Finance Secretary could comment on this, comment on what has happened since that written statement was made,  and how and if the Welsh Government has been involved.

Now, I have brought together women's organisations to form the Women in Wales for Europe network, and one of the major concerns raised by a diverse range of organisations has been the future impact of funding decisions post Brexit, especially in relation to the UK shared prosperity fund. There are a lot of organisations in the third, public and private sectors who want to engage in this discussion about this new fund.

Would you accept the views and recommendations of the cross-party Finance Committee that EU structural funds have had a clear focus on promoting equality, addressing poverty, supporting human rights, with a significant amount of EU-supported projects focused on supporting women?

Are you winding up, please, for a question?

So, we do have opportunities and challenges, and I hope that you will be able to make the case for us all to be engaged, because, as you said, there is an emerging consensus, and this Assembly can back you in these negotiations.

I thank Jane Hutt for what she said, particularly that last remark; it is very helpful, always, when you are discussing things with UK Ministers, to be able to refer not simply to the views of the Welsh Government, but, for example, to the Finance Committee's report, which I've read. I thought it was characteristically well informed and constructive in its conclusions. And being able to refer to that report and the cross-party consensus that it has established in relation to these matters is always helpful when you are discussing these matters with UK Ministers.

It is a shame that the Secretary of State for Wales, once again, declines invitations to come and defend his Government's policies in front of this Assembly. I hear, Dirprwy Lywydd, that the UK Government has held a consultation event in Scotland on the shared prosperity fund, and that it has held a consultation event in Northern Ireland on the shared prosperity fund. I hear that it did not inform either the Northern Ireland—well, the devolved arrangements there—until the day before that consultation took place, and that the Scottish Government was not informed of the consultation exercise until the day before that happened either. What sort of UK Government is this, Dirprwy Lywydd, that moves around the United Kingdom like some sort of thief in the night, refusing to tell devolved administrations of its presence in their localities? Maybe we will see them here in Wales, and, if we do, I look forward to hearing of their arrival from the same Secretary of State.

Finally, just to agree with what Jane Hutt said about equality, equality matters have been a key strand in European funding here in Wales and in the work of the programme monitoring committee. Many organisations of the sort that Jane Hutt referred to have benefited from it. What guarantees could we possibly have that that focus would be sustained in any shared prosperity fund decided upon elsewhere, the rules set elsewhere, the funding decisions made elsewhere, and, here in Wales, simply left to deal with the consequences?

Finally, Mick Antoniw.

Cabinet Secretary, I always get disappointed when I hear the Tories dissing the way in which some of the European funding has actually been used to regenerate parts of Wales. If they want to come to Pontypridd, they can see what I think is a model example of the way a town that suffered so grimly out of the mining industry and the industrialisation—the regeneration that is actually taking place, where European funding has been such a fundamentally important catalyst. You can see it— whether it be the Taff precinct, the pedestrianisation, the lido, the Church Village bypass, the station. Pontypridd and parts of Taff Ely—and of course the metro extending all the way to Taff's Well—are a hub of regeneration at the moment. There is a buzz in the town, and, without that European funding, that would not have happened. So, it's very disappointing to hear those examples being totally rejected by the Conservatives.

The shared prosperity fund has already been commented on in detail. There were promises, just like there were promises that we wouldn't lose any money—promises of engagement. Steffan Lewis referred very clearly to some of the promises, statements being made about centralisation, and it is very clear that there isn't proper engagement; no-one knows what the shared prosperity fund actually is. And, when you read Western Mail today and you see an article in there—and you hear Darren Millar, who was shouting so loudly earlier—saying, 'Darren Millar looked forward to a new development funding system once the UK has left the EU', 'Brexit provides Wales with an opportunity for a fresh approach to regional investment and economic development through a new UK shared prosperity fund', which he isn't able to describe or to identify either, there's only one conclusion, Deputy Presiding Officer, that you can come to. And maybe the name 'Tory' is very appropriate in these examples, because it has its roots in the Irish language and means 'robber'. Because the only conclusion I can come to is that there is a Tory conspiracy to rob Wales of £370 million a year—rob Wales of £370 million a year. Because not once have you heard the Tories stand up and say, 'Yes, we will demand that Wales gets every penny that it had before.' Not once have they dared to stand up and do that, and that is because they are basically a London Tory party fifth column in Wales. That's the role they play.

And do you agree with me, Cabinet Secretary, that the Tory party in Wales now only represents one thing and that is economic betrayal—betrayal over the promises over electrification, betrayal over the Swansea tidal lagoon, and now a total betrayal over EU funding?

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, I thank the Member for that and thank him for reminding us that the reason why Wales has qualified for European funds over these years is because we have had to deal with the consequences of the Conservative Party's handling of the Welsh economy during the 1980s—their shameful record of de-industrialisation, their shameful record of an assault on the manufacturing industry. Of course they don't know the benefits that European funding has brought because they never go there—they never go to those parts of Wales where their policies laid such waste and where economies and communities are still having to recover from the way in which they discharged their responsibilities, and, indeed, the policies that they continue to pursue here today, the policies of austerity on the one hand and their refusal to live up to the guarantee that was offered to people in Wales that we would not lose a penny from European funding.

The shared prosperity fund, Dirprwy Lywydd, it's a unicorn fund, isn't it? Everybody has heard of it, nobody has ever seen it, and we certainly don't want to see it here in Wales.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

Item 6 on the agenda is postponed until 23 October.