National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda this afternoon will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government. The first question is from James Evans.

Diolch, James. Councils have duties under the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 to encourage participation in decision making. They are required to publish participation strategies, which must include how the council promotes and supports ways for local people to make representations about decisions, to ensure community views are fully considered.

I'd like to thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your answer. It's a shame that the Liberal Democrats, who control Powys County Council, couldn't listen to your answer, because they have gone against community views on a number of occasions—whether it's closing small schools, whether it's selling off county farms, or closing day centres and leisure centres. That's not listening to the community views, Cabinet Secretary, and it shows the Liberal Democrats yet again promise one thing and deliver another. So, do you agree with me, Cabinet Secretary, that, when people make promises on election manifestos, they should stick to them and actually listen then to the community views when they propose ideas for their areas?

Diolch, James. I hear a number of heckles from sedentary positions about that. I think it's really important that public participation happens with local authorities. We have the trust of the people who we represent, and local authorities do as well. They have really difficult decisions to make. But, when developing their plans, I do expect local authorities to consider carefully the decisions and accessibility to their communities, to make sure they are making the right decisions for the people that they seek to serve.

Following on from that question, I hope that all of us believe that the true test of democracy is that those in power respect the democratic will of our communities. Very similarly to James Evans, I've seen several examples just in Rhondda Cynon Taf, within my region, of comprehensive consultations, where there were high levels of public responses, with very clear messages that were totally ignored. For example: Rhigos Primary School in Hirwaun—94 per cent of respondents wanted to see that school continuing to be open—it was closed; 79 per cent of 2,800 respondents across the county opposed cuts to school bus services, but, again, they went ahead; 89 per cent of 650 respondents were opposed to the closure of Cae Glas care home, but they were ignored. So, what message does the Minister believe that this gives to our local communities and the nature of our democracy if these voices are totally ignored by those in power, and how will we ensure that consultation does mean listening, not just asking questions?

Diolch, Heledd. Public participation is all about councils, communities and partners working together to improve public services by ensuring that they do reflect the needs of everyone in their communities. So, under the 2021 Act, principal councils are expected to engage with communities about the content of their public participation strategies. This is really important in ensuring that participation in councils' democratic processes, maintaining that participation, the trust, as I mentioned, and interest in democracy in the years between the elections. Additionally, we do expect local authorities to consult on their budget proposals with residents and businesses. So, it is important that local authorities do consult with the people that they're elected to represent, and, as I say, they do work with all their communities as well to make sure that the decisions they take do reflect the needs of their communities.

Diolch, Joyce. We are focusing our delivery on social housing, where we have the most control and funding levers, providing record levels of over £2 billion over this Senedd term, including £466 million in 2025-26 alone. Since the start of this Senedd term, the Mid and West Wales region has received over £214 million of social housing grant alone, with over 1,500 units of housing already delivered.

I welcome that news, Cabinet Secretary. I also welcome the Government's £55 million additional funding announcement last month for the transitional accommodation capital programme. This builds on the previous funding, and will boost the programme budget for this year alone to £155 million, and it will be crucial in delivering much-needed quality housing for people right across Wales. I want to also welcome the £68.5 million that was allocated to the Welsh Government’s housing with care fund for 2025-26, and £600,000 of this has recently been allocated to enable the completion of a specialist housing scheme in Llanelli, and that’s obviously going to help adults with learning needs to live independently. Cabinet Secretary, will you agree with me that this demonstrates the Welsh Government’s commitment to delivering high-quality housing for people right across Wales?

Diolch, Joyce, and absolutely. With the transitional accommodation capital programme funding, we’ve seen £64 million provided to the mid and west Wales region this Senedd term alone, to bring forward 682 homes, which includes 178 void properties brought back into use. So, that’s really good investment there, bringing those homes for people in Mid and West Wales.

I was really fortunate myself to visit the scheme at Llanelli, and I saw for myself how Carmarthenshire County Council delivered on our programme for government commitment to support innovative housing developments to meet care needs. It’s soon going to be welcoming five new residents, who’ll be able to receive the care that they require in their community. It’s a great facility, and really, really exciting for those who will be finding that as their new home. So, it's about investing in people, making sure that we support people in the right accommodation, in the right place as well. I know that the scheme responds to, clearly, the evidence and growing need for supported living in Carmarthenshire, and particularly individuals with learning disabilities and mental health needs. So, I’m hoping they settle in well to that new scheme.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson first of all—Joel James. 

Thank you, Llywydd. In October last year, a report on South Wales Fire and Rescue Service’s response to domestic fires found many operational procedures to be outdated, contradictory and scientifically flawed, with some procedures dating back nearly 30 years, and that this has unnecessarily endangered firefighters. It also raised serious concerns that resulting safety incidents were going unrecognised and unreported. Cabinet Secretary, one year on, what action has the Welsh Government taken to ensure that these outdated tactics are replaced with evidence-based national standards across all Welsh fire and rescue services? Thank you.

Diolch, Joel, for that important question. I expect all FRAs to take all necessary action to ensure firefighters are safe and to ensure that they fully meet all of their employer obligations in this regard. I’ve constantly and consistently set out to all stakeholders that fire safety, and the safety of the public, is paramount. In that regard, I expect all of the chief fire and rescue adviser and inspector's recommendations to be taken forward, to ensure firefighter working practices are safe and productive.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Following the Morris review, the Welsh Government removed elected members from the South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority and appointed four commissioners. These commissioners now hold full governance responsibility, with no publicly announced end date to their tenure. As you’re aware, their role is to drive reform in the culture and leadership of the service, restructure the service, and ensure that south Wales fire and rescue meets its statutory functions, and this cannot be allowed to be an open-ended timeline. Therefore, what specific actions are the Welsh Government taking to measure the commissioners' progress in meeting these objectives in a timely fashion, and what steps are the Welsh Government taking to ensure that democratic accountability and transparency are restored to South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority as soon as possible? Thank you.

Thank you, Joel. And I'd just like to put on record again my thanks to the south Wales fire commissioners who are involved, for the work that they're doing at the moment. I accepted in principle all of the Senedd's Equality and Social Justice Committee's recommendations and Audit Wales's recommendations on that matter. I've previously committed to consulting on the governance changes that I can make through secondary legislation in this Senedd term. That consultation sets out options for change to fire and rescue authority membership, budget setting and an enhanced inspection process for Wales. You'll know that that consultation has recently closed, and responses are being carefully analysed.

Reform of the fire and rescue service governance will be complemented by a new national framework, strengthening performance monitoring and reporting arrangements by the fire and rescue services in Wales. And there'll be a new fire and rescue authority member training and development programme, which is already being developed, and that will include clarification on roles and responsibilities, the knowledge and skills required to undertake the role, a member performance assessment process, as well as a comprehensive package of induction and ongoing training and development. So, there is a lot of work that is going on at the moment. And we also have our regular social partnership forum meetings—we had one last week—which brings together everybody with an interest in this area, whether it's the FRAs, the chairs, the chiefs or unions. So, we work in social partnership together on all of these issues.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. In the inspection report, 'An inspection of South Wales Fire and Rescue Service: Effectiveness, efficiency and people', commissioned last year, it was found that the service's almost £100 million budget was not aligned with its strategic or departmental plans where they exist, such as those for fleet and IT services, meaning that the service allocates resources based on what it has rather than what it needs. Some areas were well resourced, such as operational whole-time staffing, but other areas, such as finance and training, weren't well resourced at all. This has direct implications for not only efficient public spending but for fire safety equity as well. Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, what steps have been taken by the Welsh Government to ensure that the commissioners are aligning future funding allocations to reflect strategic plans and that appropriate funding is provided to ensure that the commissioners' objectives are achievable? Thank you. 

Thank you very much, Joel. Again, this is something that we work with fire authorities on and we have our own social partnership forum where we work through issues together. So, we continue that dialogue constantly. And I think it's not just within the social partnership forum where I want to see that social partnership working well; it has to be outside of those meetings, which I've made really clear as well. So, we deal with any issues that come up. Obviously, they make the case around budget setting, and obviously, with my Cabinet colleague for finance sat here as well, he also hears what you say, but we make those cases as well. So, we discuss in partnership with all of the fire authorities in Wales any particular issues or budget issues that they want to see.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Siân Gwenllian. 

Thank you very much. In the spring, the Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, promised that households would be £500 better off as a result of the current Government's plans. One clear way of ensuring that for many people who rent their homes would be to actually unfreeze the local housing allowance in the next budget. Rents have increased more rapidly in Wales than anywhere else in the UK, at an average increase of 9 per cent, with rents having gone up almost 20 per cent in Newport, which is your constituency, as it happens. However, the level of assistance available for those renters on a low income has remained static. Do you agree that Rachel Reeves should restore the housing allowance levels to the fiftieth percentile?

Diolch, Siân. I was pleased that the local housing allowance was uplifted in April 2024, and that had been frozen for four years before. I am disappointed it was frozen again in 2025. Since 2020, low-income tenants have been struggling with the growing gap between benefits and market rates, and you make that point around the difference in my own constituency that I see. But the gap between housing-related benefits and the actual cost of renting has been of real grave concern to us for a number of years. It has pushed an increasing number of households into hardship and greater risk of homelessness. But we have been clear that if we are to tackle homelessness in all its forms, welfare benefits need to meet actual costs.

I'm pleased that you share my concerns. The Shelter Cymru report, for example, highlights the damaging impact on the increase in rent on the one hand and the lack of an increase in the allowance on the other. Even given the most affordable homes, the policy of not unfreezing leads to deficiencies on average of over £1,900 per annum to families, forcing households to cut back on essentials, go into debt or fall behind with their rent.

I was pleased to understand, through a freedom of information request, that you had written directly to a member of Keir Starmer's Cabinet, calling for the restoration of the housing allowance levels to that fiftieth percentile, but the response that came in April this year from the Minister of State for Social Security and Disability was very disappointing, I'm sure you agree. So, I would like to know what further discussions have taken place between you and your partners in Westminster since April, and how hard you have been pushing for this crucial change to the allowance.

Diolch, Siân. As market rents continue to increase, we will continue to call, and I'll continue to call, for LHA rates to be set at the fiftieth percentile rather than the thirtieth percentile, as they were when they were first introduced. It is important that the local housing allowance is adjusted on an annual basis, rather than being subject to long periods of stagnation.

You mentioned that I have written, along with the Welsh Local Government Association, a joint letter previously on this, and will continue to push UK Government on this issue. I think it was disappointing that there was no mention of LHA uplifts in either the autumn budget or as part of the comprehensive spending review. As I say, we will continue to push UK Government to address this with our local government colleagues as well.

Perhaps you would be content to provide me with some details, therefore, as to what further discussions you have had, since that letter in April, to push this agenda forward. Because a lack of action is pushing the poorest people in our society into even more vulnerable situations, such as homelessness. And of course, temporary accommodation costs local authorities in Wales £172 million per annum, and £1 of every £4 of the discretionary housing payment is used to fill the gaps caused by deficiencies in the housing allowance levels.

It is crucial, isn't it, that the UK Government takes action to unfreeze and upgrade housing allowance levels to reflect market reality? If this does not happen, what comfort can you, as Welsh Government, give to those people on low incomes who are paying rents that are increasing without any control? And what assurance can you give that there will not be far more people in Wales falling even deeper into poverty and facing homelessness?

Diolch, Sian. As I said, I continue to push this, because I do think, again, with local government, that it is one of the biggest issues that could actually really help people in the private rented sector. We know from the Bevan Foundation the impact that the frozen LHA rates have had on affordability. Back in February 2023, only 32 properties in Wales that were available to rent had a rental price that would be fully covered by the corresponding LHA rate at that time. And the research has also highlighted that, in some local authorities, the gap between the LHA and the lowest rent level could be as great as £851 a month. It is a really serious issue. As I said, we've been clear; we've consistently made the case over that time as well, and we will continue to do so.

Your point on temporary accommodation I think, again, is that we know that there are still too many people in temporary accommodation. Local authorities are working incredibly hard to bring that number down. It is really difficult—it's not always reflected in the numbers. When you see the numbers in temporary accommodation, there are people moving out of temporary accommodation every month into permanent homes. There is a lot of work going on in this area. I'm really conscious that when Members see the stats, it could look like it's the same people in temporary accommodation, but actually there's a huge amount of work going on to move people into permanent homes. So, I just want to put on record my thanks to all the local authorities and officials and housing officers within their teams doing that. As I say, this is something that's concerning to us on the LHA rates, and it is something that we are consistently pushing for.

Diolch, Llyr. There's no legislative requirement to prioritise ex-prisoners for social housing. Under the Housing Act 1996, local authorities are required to have an allocations scheme for determining priorities in allocating housing. Each local authority should have its own published allocations policy, available for local people to access.

Thank you for that answer. HMP Berwyn in Wrexham in my region is the largest prison in the UK, currently housing around 1,900 prisoners, and about a third of those are from Wales. At present, released prisoners have priority in terms of housing in their local authority area, but concerns have been raised with me that, under proposed new legislation, that will change so that all Welsh prisoners will be designated as local to Wales, regardless of where they're from. Can you clarify whether that's the case? If it is, could you ensure that councils such as Wrexham don't face an influx of ex-prisoners leaving Berwyn and claiming a local connection for housing priority there?

Diolch, Llyr. For people in custody, under the Bill, it will be possible for local authorities to make local connection referrals earlier in the process than they currently do. Earlier referrals will help reduce the stress and disruption for applicants and services, and provide all parties with clarity around responsibility. Earlier referral and communication between the HM Prison and Probation Service and local authorities will reduce the likelihood of a placement in a bed and breakfast upon release. The issue of appropriate accommodation for high-risk people leaving custody, we know, is complex. But in terms of the local connection, it's a different aspect to what was discussed in the White Paper earlier on. I'm happy to write to make sure that that's clarified to you, because I think there's a lot of confusion sometimes around certain terms with local connection as well. So, I'll make sure that we write to you on that specifically.

Although the Housing (Wales) Act 2014 removed priority need status for prisoners in Wales, prisoners who come out of prison and are sofa surfing or have nowhere to stay are classed as homeless and should still therefore go to their council for help. My own meetings in prison with prisoners from Wales have confirmed both their dependency upon devolved services and that their No. 1 priority on release is access to housing, particularly in new locations where they will not come into contact with their peer groups and pushers. What action are you therefore taking to promote the housing advice available in prison from the prison resettlement team and services like Prison Link Cymru? What update can you provide regarding the reciprocal arrangements for resettlement of ex-offenders between local authorities, referenced in previous Senedd committee inquiries, of which I was part?

Diolch, Mark. Thank you for your interest and work in this area. Release from prison can often lead to cycles of reoffending and repeat homelessness, which can have a significant negative impact on the individual and the wider community. We know that. As a result, Welsh Government has been working closely with HMPPS and local authorities to improve housing outcomes for those leaving custody and coming back to Wales. The recent early release scheme did demonstrate the importance of that genuine multi-agency working, to ensure that people leaving custody are signposted to relevant services, including health, ahead of release. The Homelessness and Social Housing Allocation (Wales) Bill also strengthens the duties to provide advice, co-ordinate services and prevent homelessness for people leaving custody. So, our goal is to make sure that no one leaves prison into homelessness, and the Bill will provide a legal framework to support this ambition. We'll work with others to make sure we do that in a practical and effective way.

We do have a working group at the moment as well with HMPPS, so we are working to do everything we can at the moment to put in place before the Bill, hopefully, comes into being the work that we can take, the good practice that's learned from the prisoner early release scheme as well. So, we are working and officials are working closely with HMPPS on all of that.

Care-experienced young people are estimated to represent 24 per cent to 27 per cent of the adult prison population in the UK, despite being less than 1 per cent of under-18s entering local authority care each year. So, as such, a lot of the ex-prisoners will have experienced care and, as such, we do have a special responsibility towards them. So, I’d like to ask how the Government approaches this in terms of supporting care leavers who would be coming out of prison.

Diolch, Julie. Thank you for that question. The support requirements of every person leaving custody are taken very seriously, and for young people, the local authorities’ leaving care service must remain a presence in the young person's life during the period of supervision by the youth offending team and probation service. For those who may historically have been in care, the new Homelessness and Social Housing Allocation (Wales) Bill will abolish, as you know, both priority need and intentionality tests, which we know are barriers for those leaving prison. It will also ensure that each local authority has a multi-agency case co-ordination approach for those who need the most support, and anyone leaving custody, regardless of care status, who is experiencing multiple support needs will benefit from this approach. And as you know, the Bill does deliver a package of measures collectively designed to end the use of the homelessness system as a route out of care.

Diolch, Heledd. Since 2022, our optimised retrofit programme has invested £12 million in retrofitting social homes in South Wales Central. Warm Homes Nest offers free retrofits for eligible low-income households, and Green Homes Wales offers free assessments and interest-free loans to people who want to upgrade their own homes.

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. As you’ll be well aware, we know that 98 per cent of people on low incomes are in fuel poverty. Households are being pushed into record levels of debt, with over £3.7 billion in energy debt and arrears. In fact, the recent Citizens Advice Cymru report, 'Delivering warmer homes for private renters in Wales', highlights that nearly half of Welsh renters are struggling to pay their energy bills, with almost two thirds of rented homes in Wales rated EPC D or below, paying an average of £317 more a year than those in EPC C homes. This means that, for yet another winter, many of our residents and constituents will face a hard choice of either being able to afford to heat their homes or to eat. So, can I ask, what is the Welsh Government doing to address the immediate challenges facing people living in inadequate homes in my region, as well as the longer term opportunities linked to retrofitting homes that will, of course, benefit our economy as well?

Absolutely. Thank you, Heledd, for that. I certainly recognise the level of fuel poverty that you mentioned. Recently published data shows that 25 per cent of our households are living in fuel poverty and a further 16 per cent are at risk of falling into fuel poverty. So, they are really concerning numbers. We are investing more than £35 million this financial year through our Warm Homes Nest scheme to reduce the number of low-income households living in cold, damp homes. As you'll know, Nest takes a low carbon-first approach to improve the long-term energy efficiency of the least thermally efficient low-income households in Wales. And this method, really, is a two-pronged approach, so the provision of independent advice, which is really important, and, for eligible households, free installations to improve fuel-poor homes.

So, our free advice service, which is available to all households in Wales—and I would urge all Members to make sure that they are promoting that—plays an important role in understanding each household's individual circumstances, advises on steps people can take themselves, and is supporting them to access the most appropriate scheme for their needs. There are a number of schemes that are going—a number of Welsh Government schemes, but also other schemes that are operating across the UK and funded by energy suppliers. We work with the Welsh Local Government Association and are leveraging as much funding as possible into Wales from UK-wide schemes to ensure that support is available to those most in need. For example, the ECO Flex scheme is available in every local authority in Wales, and I'm also meeting tomorrow the UK Minister with responsibility in this area, and I'll make sure that I raise this issue directly with him as well when I meet him tomorrow.

Diolch, Sioned. We have invested almost £132 million in town centres across South Wales West through our Transforming Towns programme since January 2020. This investment is reinvigorating high streets, supporting local businesses, creating jobs and strengthening communities.

Diolch. Last month, during a debate on town centres brought forward by my colleague Luke Fletcher, Members highlighted the untapped potential of our town centres. During the recent Neath Arts Festival, I visited a pop-up museum in Neath, curated by local historian Jordan Brinkworth, and, over three days, almost 800 people visited. Neath has a history stretching back thousands of years, and reminders of the past exist to this day. Despite this, since Cefn Coed Colliery Museum was forced to close its doors on safety grounds several years ago, Neath Port Talbot is one of the few county boroughs in Wales without a council-managed museum, though I'm pleased the current administration is committed to addressing this. With heritage tourism being linked to the development of distinctive, vibrant town centres and footfall, what steps is the Welsh Government taking to help local authorities harness heritage as a driver for town-centre regeneration?

Diolch, Sioned. I think that's such an important aspect, isn't it? Heritage is so crucial to our communities, and I probably should declare an interest at this moment that my mum was born in Neath, so I do have a certain affection for Neath. It sounds like a wonderful festival that was put on locally. To attract that many people, I think is really, really good to see. I think the aspects of Transforming Towns and the importance of our town centres just highlights the cross-Government nature of all of this. You know, it's not just about the responsibility on myself; I think it's a responsibility for my Cabinet colleague Jack Sargeant, who has responsibility for heritage and culture. Also, whether it's education settings—. It's really important that we work across Government, and I've made that point to my Cabinet colleagues and will continue to do so to make sure that we do invest as much as possible where people care the most about in their own communities.

But our town centres face multiple threats, from the out-of-town developments with ample free parking to the unfair competition from large multinational chains able to absorb huge rent and rates increases. However, the latest threat is the most sinister, and that is the rise of organised crime gangs running shops and services, often utilising illegal immigrants. Undercover investigation by the BBC and raids by the National Crime Agency have found mini-marts selling illegal tobacco products and barber shops employing failed asylum seekers earning as little as £4 per hour. Cabinet Secretary, what is the Welsh Government doing to ensure these so-called businesses are not allowed to operate on our high streets, and how are you enabling local authorities to crack down on the sale of illegal tobacco and vapes?

Diolch, Altaf, and thank you for that question. There's a lot of money that has gone into your region. We've delivered a number of regeneration projects and we've got a really healthy pipeline. So, I think, on the positives, there's a lot of really good news for town centres in your region.

The aspect of people feeling safe on our high streets and going into our town centres, it is really important. It's important that people are safe and it's important that they feel safe, because otherwise that prevents them from going in altogether. So, I think safety is a really important issue. I would say also that trading standards do an incredible job. Each local authority, the officers there, when they have notice about things, they do take that up and they do incredible work, I know, and we see that in some of the prosecutions that they've been able to bring forward as well. So, the issue we take very seriously, but I think trading standards do that job and we know that policing, which you'll know isn't devolved, is something that we work with our UK Government colleagues on.

Diolch, Mike. The latest estimate from the WLGA indicates that local authorities are facing increased costs of £560 million in 2026-27.

Diolch. Local government is facing increased costs, as you just said, but, notably, in children's social services, social care and homelessness. In England, council spending on adult and children's social care is due to rise by 10 per cent in real terms this year for the second consecutive year, Westminster Government data show. Increases in budget and costs have been even steeper for children's social care, with a second consecutive rise of 11 per cent in real terms. Homelessness costs in England have increased by 29 per cent in the last year and by 97 per cent in the last five years. Are the Welsh figures substantially different, and have you raised these financial pressures with the Cabinet Secretary for finance?

Diolch, Mike. I understand that over £200 million of the cost pressures identified by the WLGA do relate to social services, and my fellow Ministers with responsibility for this area are arranging a meeting with local government representatives to discuss this issue further. Since 2022, we have provided additional targeted grants to local authorities, which total over £77 million, to support their statutory duties to provide temporary accommodation, discretionary prevention support and strategic co-ordination. From 2025-26, the homelessness-related funding has been transferred to the revenue support grant, giving councils that flexibility to meet those needs.

It's the Government's firm ambition to secure a final budget—and I can see my Cabinet colleague sat here, nodding away—and that the final budget would use all the resources available for 2026-27 to support front-line public services. And I hope all parties will take the opportunity to have discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for finance as soon as possible to play their part in finalising a budget.

As we've heard, local authorities are under immense pressure—we all recognise that—but also our taxpayers and working families are overburdened with increasing costs as well and becoming more frustrated. In Monmouthshire, for instance, we've seen council tax increases of 21 per cent over the past three years—that's something that would not have happened if I was still a leader there.

We understand that the demographic pressures and ageing population, and, as Mike pointed out, the costs of children's services, are creating real problems and pressures. But, without firm limits, councils risk setting budgets based on what they can get away with rather than what is fair and affordable—I know that very few would do that, though. Cabinet Secretary, will the Welsh Government reconsider introducing a mandate requiring local authorities to hold a referendum on council tax increases by 5 per cent? If it's right for England and 57 million people, why isn't right for us in Wales also?

Thank you, Peter. I think it's wrong, because it's not the right policy for Wales. It is costly and we know that that is something that residents would not want to see. I think we have to remember that local authorities, as you know, Peter, work really hard—they have really difficult decisions in tough times. We've been through 14 years of austerity, and local authorities have had a really, really tough time. The setting of their budgets and council tax is the responsibility, as you know, of them, each individual local authority. It really isn't appropriate for the Welsh Government to set an arbitrary level of council tax increase.

I think, every time that decision is made, each local authority is really, really, I think, struggling, and knows that every percentage point, decimal point, is a real issue for their residents. But they have to balance that, and they have to take account of the full range of sources of funding available to them, as well as the pressures that they face. I do encourage councils to continue to carefully balance the impact of increases on household finances with the loss of support and services. I know that, as I said, across Wales, leaders, elected members and officers alike will be finding, hoping to find, ways to make the best use of their resources to make the most difference to the communities that they serve.

But I would put that offer out again. The First Minister and the Cabinet Secretary for finance have been clear that it's our collective responsibility here to pass a Welsh budget. We're committed to working with all parties to do that.

Question 7—Peter Fox. Oh, once again.

I didn't spot that. I might not have called you for your supplementary if I had spotted that. 

Well, I was wondering. I was wondering. [Laughter.]

Diolch, Peter. The Welsh Government works closely with local government and the wider emergency responder community to identify and manage a wide range of risks and threats, and to adapt and learn to improve Wales's resilience. We work collaboratively to minimise impacts and to respond and recover effectively when disruptive challenges arise.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Local authorities serve as the first point of contact between residents and government, and they tend to have good insight into what is going on. Through the publication of risk registers, the public and the Welsh Government are able to see what issues are of concern and on the horizon.

Torfaen County Borough Council, for example, have noticed there is a critical risk that funding shortfalls will prevent investment in their schools, which could severely impact education infrastructure. Monmouthshire County Council have reported ongoing risk of significant harm to children and adults due to failures in safeguarding arrangements, and similar risks with adult social care.

These are, certainly, some very concerning trends being identified, and they will likely require input and support from Welsh Government to circumvent. Cabinet Secretary, do you and your officials monitor local authority risk registers, and, if so, what steps will the Welsh Government take to mitigate risks such as these relating to social care and education investment in Monmouthshire and Torfaen?

Thank you, Peter. In May this year, the First Minister announced Wales's first resilience framework. That framework provides a clear vision and a set of priorities that ensure that Wales is resilient to disruptive challenge, and also highlights the importance of risk assessments and preparedness to build resilience.

Wales's four local resilience forums each produce a community risk register as part of their statutory duties under the Civil Contingencies Act 2004. Community risk registers help to inform emergency planning through the local resilience forums, and are kept under continual review. Through the forums and the plan, the Welsh Government is committed to working with the forum partners to enhance the production and maintenance of the risk registers. That includes developing clear standards for register updates and review cycles, and strengthening requirements for the register to consider demographics and vulnerable people.

So, we are committed to supporting those local resilience forums to tailor their communications of the registers to meet community needs—so, still work going on in that area about the structures, but I certainly can report back to you in the coming months.

And finally, question 8—Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Janet. I meet regularly with One Voice Wales as the representative body for the sector. We discuss a range of issues, including audit experiences. My officials have a constructive relationship with sector bodies and Audit Wales. Among other work, they are scoping a review of the community council audit regime.

Thank you. You will know, Cabinet Secretary, that I've written to you about this. I have some real concerns about—. I suppose the question has to be asked, 'Who guards the guards?' Because you confirmed to me in writing last month that—[Inaudible.]—have to be dealt with none other than Audit Wales. So, should an individual have a complaint, the decision as to whether their complaint is valid or not comes down to the director of corporate services in Audit Wales. Basically, Audit Wales are being asked to mark their own homework, even where serious complaints are raised about their own work involving councils and the wasting of public money. And I have so many experiences of this. 

They do not appear to be handling complaints fairly, and that's been raised with me by community councils and, indeed, individuals. Of all the complaints made to Audit Wales about Audit Wales, the body only found in favour of 18 per cent in 2024-25, 0 per cent 2022-23 and 11 per cent in 2021-22. So, over a 10-year period, they've only actually agreed with six complaints. That can't be right. The figures just do not stack up. Do you think it's reasonable, Cabinet Secretary, that Audit Wales are expected to investigate and come to a conclusion, basically playing poacher and gamekeeper, about complaints made about themselves, and if not—if you agree with me—would you work with me going forward to perhaps look at how a more independent process can be set up to go forward? Because it can't be right. That's the top of the tree—

I've been really generous with you, Janet Finch-Saunders, but I'm going to ask the Minister to answer the questions that have been posed.

Okay, if you could answer the question, Cab Sec, please.

Diolch, Janet, and thank you for your correspondence as well. It is the responsibility of every council to carry out its statutory duties and follow proper practices to account for the public money entrusted to them. That audit regime for community and town councils is a matter for the Auditor General for Wales, however, we do continue to work with Audit Wales on what further support could be provided to smaller community councils to help them fulfil audit requirements.

There is a governance issue for the sector. So, for the 2023-24 audits, around 30 per cent of councils submitted accounts that did not add up, and there are around 40 per cent of councils that received qualified audits. So, from the 2021-22 financial year, Audit Wales changed its audit arrangements for community and town councils to provide a significantly higher level of assurance to cover councils' accounts. Any significant changes to the audit system would likely require primary legislation, which isn't feasible in this Senedd term. Starting in spring/summer gives us time to properly explore options thoroughly for the next Senedd.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 2 is next, the questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education. The first question is from Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'll just give some time for the Cabinet Secretary to get her file in place. [Laughter.] Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

Earlier this year we published a suite of guidance and resources to support schools with key considerations in their safe, ethical and responsible use of artificial intelligence. We've published bespoke advice on the use of generative AI tools available through Hwb, including Microsoft 365 Copilot Chat, Google Gemini and NotebookLM.

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary.

Reading Estyn's report into AI use in schools, it's clear that there's plenty of potential. What I'm particularly interested in is how the Welsh Government intends to stem over-reliance on AI, particularly among learners. There are a lot of unknowns here and a lot of gaps in the evidence, but a report commissioned by Oxford University Press, published last month, found that just 2 per cent of students aged between 13 and 18 said they did not use AI for their schoolwork, while 80 per cent said they regularly use it for their schoolwork. Of that same cohort, 62 per cent said they believe AI is having a negative impact on their skills and development, effectively eroding their ability to research independently, study effectively and think creatively.

So, can the Cabinet Secretary outline how the Welsh Government intends to issue guidance and enact policy in a way that accounts for this, and fundamentally looks to preserve learners' critical thinking, creativity and intellectual independence? Surely that is the core principle of our education system.

Thank you very much, Luke, and you make very important points there. Obviously, there’s a balance, isn’t there? There are benefits and there are risks, and we’re navigating new territory with all of these things. I commissioned the review of AI by Estyn, and I think it has given us a much clearer picture of how this fast-evolving technology is being used. We welcome the recommendations from Estyn and we’ve accepted them all, and work to deliver these is under way. We have taken a sector-led approach in developing our 'Generative artificial intelligence in education: Opportunities and considerations for schools and settings relating to the use of Gen AI.' We’ll build on that by co-developing a national framework to support schools with strategic planning. Estyn asked us to develop that national framework.

The Estyn report found that generative AI offers real benefits for schools and workforce. It shared examples of schools using AI to boost engagement and improve efficiency. We’ve seen examples of schools using these tools in creative ways to personalise learning and support learners with complex needs. You will probably have seen that there are some case studies in the report, and I’ve asked to visit some of those schools to have a look at what they’re doing.

But, obviously, we also have to make sure that young people are able to think critically, that they don’t over-depend on this technology. Also, I am very keen to protect the role of teachers. The role of teachers and support staff in supporting our young people is absolutely key, and teaching is basically a relational activity, really. We can’t be over-dependent on AI. How I’d like to see things develop is by supporting teachers with things that we know are causing massive problems at the moment. We know workload is a really big issue and is leading to staff leaving the profession. That’s why I think it is vital that, where we are using AI, we do that in a really discerning way.

That goes for learners as well. There are lots and lots of risks out there. There’ve been highly publicised cases recently of serious damage to young people through the use of things like chatbots. We’re encouraging young people to be aware of the risks through things like our 'Keeping safe online' work on Hwb, and also our work with parents.

This is a fast-evolving area, and I think it’s important that we approach it with confidence and caution, really, and make sure that we get the balance right.

I fully agree with the comments you make about staving off the threat of over-dependency on AI. I’m fully on board with that. But one of the criticisms of AI has been the seeping of Americanisms into the English language, which obviously we have to be aware of—just basic things like Zs instead of Ss, and things like that. They’re just basic examples. What we’ve seen with AI technology, with things like ChatGPT, is you put a simple search in and it will come up with a lot of Americanisms, and sometimes a biased approach in that regard.

What direct instructions can you give to the likes of Estyn, local authorities and indeed education providers across Wales to make sure that the integrity of the English language, the learned English language, is given throughout the education system, with that over-reliance, but then also making sure that we maintain those high standards within the English language as well?

Thank you, Gareth. That's not something that's been raised with me, but I can certainly see where you're coming from in terms of the Americanisms. I will certainly pick that up with officials and in my discussions with Estyn. I think Estyn have been really helpful in this space with the review that they've done for us, which has been really useful. As I said, we've already issued guidance. I think there's also a really important role for professional learning and how we upskill our schools' workforce to navigate some of these issues.

Without wishing to trivialise the matter of Americanisms, I think there are some really major threats that I've just referred to in answer to Luke around things like chatbots and keeping children safe, but I will certainly follow up on what you've just raised. Personally, I don't use it a lot, so maybe I need to use it a bit more so that I have a better understanding of the detail.

It's a very easy way to check whether something's been produced by AI or not, to work out how they spell 'programme' in the way that something has been written—the American way or the English language way. It's a good way to spot it. 

The Welsh Government is committed to working with partners across the outdoor education sector to ensure learners benefit from meaningful engagement with the outdoor environment. We encourage practitioners to embed outdoor experiences into their curriculum, making full use of Wales’s wonderfully diverse environment to support well-being, creativity and engagement.

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary, and thank you also for your engagement with me, whether it's through face-to-face meetings or through correspondence with you and your officials off the back of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill, which I tried to pursue here in this place, but sadly didn't quite get the support that I was hoping for, eventually.

You recognised in your initial response the importance of outdoor education, and one of the benefits of working through that legislative process that I went through just over a year ago now was that it showed there are some non-legislative items of work that can be done to further promote the good work that outdoor education provides to young people up and down Wales—as you say, supporting their well-being, their personal development and just an appreciation of the natural environment as well.

One of those areas is the work undertaken by the Outdoor Partnership, a north Wales-based organisation, on their adventure learning framework, which is a vehicle to provide educational rationale, aligned with the Curriculum for Wales. That framework is taking off in England across many, many schools and local authorities over there, but it's not happening here in Wales at the rate it should do, in my view. I wonder whether you would be, again, willing to engage with the Outdoor Partnership, whether it is yourself directly or your officials, to see where that work can be pursued further here in Wales.

Thank you, Sam, and just to recognise again your commitment to this important area of work. When we met in April, I agreed that my officials would facilitate introductions for the partnership with Adnodd and Qualifications Wales to support their development of their adventure learning framework in Wales. Adnodd is committed to working with the partnership to explore the further development of resources and supporting materials for schools and settings. I understand that they will be meeting shortly. Qualifications Wales has met with the Outdoor Partnership and since provided further advice on the various routes for accreditation, helping the partnership clarify their next steps. But I'm very happy to have further discussions on this.

I think we are very lucky in Wales to have such a great outdoors in terms of our land and water. Getting schoolchildren to experience that great outdoors is very important. It will hopefully encourage a lifelong interest in the outdoors and nature, and produce more active lifestyles. I wonder, Cabinet Secretary, whether there's much engagement with organisations that could bring resource to our ambitions, such as Welsh Water, Dŵr Cymru. I'm familiar—I'm sure you are—with Llandegfedd reservoir. They have an open day there annually. For a very small amount, members of the public can try out kayaking, canoeing, paddleboarding, dinghy sailing, and a host of other activities, with equipment provided, and knowledge and expertise. I wonder if we're engaging with players like Dŵr Cymru to take our policies forward.

Thank you, John. I haven't personally had any engagement with Dŵr Cymru, but I know that we've worked across Government in this space. Something called the Tirlun educational outdoor learning portal has been developed, which aims to embed outdoor learning in an authentic and purposeful way. It's designed to be used wherever teachers are, and can be easily adapted to their local areas. My officials have worked with colleagues in climate change and rural affairs to ensure strong alignment with the Curriculum for Wales. That's obviously key to making sure that the portal meaningfully supports practitioners in developing high-quality teaching and learning.

I'm very happy to pick this up with the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, who has the responsibility for Welsh Water. I'm familiar with Llandegfedd reservoir; I think it's a fantastic resource. We've also got the new reservoir now in Cardiff that Welsh Water has worked on, which is absolutely stunning. So, I'm very happy to have that conversation. Obviously, Welsh Water—I know, because of the discussions I've had with them around the canal in my MS capacity—have got the same sorts of financial pressures that we're all facing at the moment. But I definitely think it would be very worthwhile to have that conversation, and I'll pick that up with Huw Irranca-Davies.

Spokespeople questions are next. The Conservatives' spokesperson, Natasha Asghar.

Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, I feel like we're here again, talking about the Welsh Government's failures when it comes to literacy in our schools. It's been an ongoing fiasco for quite some time, and it shows no signs of letting up. All the while, it's our children who are paying the price for this. It's widely accepted that systematic synthetic phonics is one of the best ways to teach our children how to read, yet we know that some children in Wales are still being taught to read via the discredited cueing method, even though it has been widely rejected by experts and totally avoided in England, with the country seeing big improvements in their reading standards.

Only recently, we saw Elizabeth Nonweiler quit the Government's expert literacy panel. Cabinet Secretary, Elizabeth is an expert in her field, and, from my understanding, she's one of the two members of the panel with experience of actually teaching children how to read. She has walked away because the panel has achieved nothing in nearly a year, and she says the panel's failings are now being built into the Government's new national literacy programme. So, Cabinet Secretary, do you accept Elizabeth's damning verdict on the current state of the panel?

Thank you, Natasha. I think the reason we're here again is because you clearly seem incapable of listening to the explanations that I give repeatedly on this, including in some considerable detail in the committee last week. As I told the committee, we have an expert literacy panel that is undertaking a complex piece of work and will provide a report to me in December. The panel agree with me that systematic synthetic phonics is the vital approach to effective reading instruction, and that should be used with a range of additional approaches to developing wider literacy skills, including fluency, vocabulary and comprehension, especially for learners with additional learning needs.

Since the curriculum was first developed, we've always said that a systematic approach to phonics is an integral part of learning to read, and we've clarified the guidance to make this clear. All children should be explicitly taught the sounds letters represent and how to blend them into words. As I said last week in the committee, for the avoidance of doubt, I expect the principles that we are developing to be clear about picture cueing. The Curriculum for Wales does not endorse picture cueing, and learners should not be encouraged to guess words as opposed to decoding them.

I very much regret the fact that Elizabeth took that decision to resign, and I'm meeting with her tomorrow to discuss our concerns. But I have full confidence in our literacy panel, on which we are very lucky to have a range of worldwide experts. I myself am not an educator. I'm not an expert in reading, which is why we have established the literacy panel to give us that advice. As I committed last week, we will share that information with the committee.

Thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary, and I appreciate your honesty. Equally, I'm not an educator, but I know that we're trying to do our best in the circumstances that we're in right now. For Members in the room, as well as people beyond, I will just give a bit of background, and I appreciate you're meeting with Elizabeth tomorrow. Elizabeth has trained teachers and advised Governments around the world on evidence-based methods of teaching reading, and she's also got first-hand experience of teaching children how to read. So, she's very highly qualified in that area. But her evidence-backed suggestions were totally ignored, and it has been alleged that civil servants have not been listening to anyone on the panel, and, instead, writing their own statements. 

What is the point of having an expert panel if you're not going to be listening to what they say, Cabinet Secretary? Despite you repeatedly saying—and I appreciate you've said it here, and in the committee previously—that synthetic phonics is the method you expect schools to use to teach children to read, the panel has failed to agree clear principles, despite being in existence for a year. And now the Government's £8.2 million national school programme for literacy is going to take into account the panel's work, and will be led by several members of the panel, including those who've been publicly critical of synthetic phonics. Elizabeth has warned, and I quote:

'The overlap in personnel and philosophy means the weaknesses of the panel are now embedded in this new project. None of those leading it has ever taught young children to read.'

This new project is clearly doomed to fail, Cabinet Secretary, and the panel doesn't seem fit for purpose if this is the viewpoint. And it has now been warned that the new £8.2 million literacy project will not improve reading standards; if anything, it will make things worse. Cabinet Secretary, will you disband the panel and abandon the literacy project before it's too late, or at least ensure that there's an equilibrium of panellists on there who are going to make reading better for children in Wales?

Thank you, Natasha. Thank you for highlighting Elizabeth's qualifications. I'm looking forward to meeting her tomorrow. But we have a range of very highly qualified literacy experts on the panel, and they are all working hard to advise us as a Government. I think the diverse views of the panel are its strength. It ensures our work is tested robustly and makes sure that our support is firmly based on clear research evidence on how learners develop reading and wider literacy skills. 

It has been a long process, but I think that the time it has taken will reflect our efforts to make sure that all the evidence has been taken on board. This has, at times, provided debate and challenge, but I'm confident that the consensus the panel has reached over that time will help us to provide the correct support for all learners. The role of Government officials throughout the process has been to support the panel in their work, ensuring that all the comments made by its members have been considered during the collaborative drafting process. 

In terms of the funding that you referred to, we have announced £8.2 million for the CAL:ON project. That is to improve bilingual literacy—and I think that's a very important point; this isn't just about English reading—for all learners through national professional learning through the project. It's underpinned by three evidence-based work packages, to provide a comprehensive package of support for all teachers of literacy. That includes early years, screening assessment tools, and national professional learning and guidance on early reading and teaching. But it also covers providing support for learners who are older than early years. As we know, that is one of the areas where Estyn has identified weaknesses. 

In addition to this, we're providing over £200,000 to develop a national training programme in Welsh language phonics, over £800,000 to promote a love of reading and to equip schools with strategies and support to select texts for children, and then £3.75 million in initiatives related to literacy and oracy. We know that oracy is vital if children are to learn to read.

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. I'm glad you mentioned Estyn, because, in my view, they have a lot of questions to answer over this situation. Officials at the school inspectorate appear to have defended the discredited cueing techniques, and have even invited Professor Dominic Wyse, a phonics critic, to address inspectors, whilst initially rejecting a request from phonics expert Elizabeth. In fact, a dismissive and condescending e-mail has been leaked, in which Estyn staff are discussing Elizabeth's request to brief them on phonics. The e-mail, which was accidentally sent to Elizabeth, which I'm sure you can discuss with her tomorrow, describes her as being 'evangelical' about a single approach, and said that by meeting her they would have at least given her airtime. Cabinet Secretary, we're talking about following an evidence-backed method to teach children how to read, yet Estyn clearly have a very flippant attitude, and it seems to me as though the Welsh Government is not really interested in raising standards.

Time and time again, we hear about needing to adopt a balanced model of teaching reading, which would involve mixing phonics with other decoding strategies. But the scientific consensus is that this can only, in fact, slow down a child's progress. Cabinet Secretary, you have had plenty of time to take action to get things right when it comes to teaching our children how to read, yet it looks as though the Welsh Government is continuing to fail miserably, unfortunately, in this area. Will you now please finally admit that a mistake has been made, go back to the drawing board and come forward with a set of measures to boost reading that has systematic synthetic phonics at the heart of it? Because the evidence is clear: systematic phonics works, and it's time to put evidence before ideology here in Wales.

Everything that I am doing is about raising standards, and I am not in any way ideological about anything that I do in education. I am only interested in what will benefit our children and young people, and that is the lens through which I look at absolutely everything.

In terms of Estyn, I understand they've apologised for recent e-mails sent in error regarding the conversations with Elizabeth Nonweiler. I don't agree with the comments made by Estyn about Elizabeth. As a Government, we value Elizabeth's views and the contribution she made to the panel. As I said, I'm discussing it with her tomorrow. I will also be meeting the other members of the literacy panel to hear from them as well. I think it's vital that, as we seek to do our utmost for children and young people, we are following the evidence throughout.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Cefin Campbell. 

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, for 2024-25, the Welsh Government's target for the number of new secondary teachers to be trained through initial teacher education programmes to ensure that they enter the profession was 1,056. Can the Cabinet Secretary confirm how many were trained in reality last year?

Thank you, Cefin. I'm sure you wouldn't expect me to have that figure to hand today. I've been very open with the committee about the challenges that we're facing in recruitment in secondary. That's why we're developing a strategic education workforce plan. That's why we have things like our incentives to ensure that the profession is attractive to new teachers. But, as we discussed in the committee, it is much more complex than things to do with money: it's about workload, it's about the pressure schools are facing. We are very actively involved in tackling those issues. We're discussing the workforce plan at the moment with stakeholders and we plan to publish a final version in the spring.

Well, Cabinet Secretary, I can give you the figure. It's 335, and the statistics are available from the Educational Workforce Council, and that is 700 fewer than the target that you set as a Government. In priority subjects, such as science through the medium of Welsh, for example, only two physics teachers qualified, one biology teacher, and none at all in chemistry. It is clear that you as a Government have failed to resolve the recruitment crisis facing the education sector in Wales.

In England, prospective teachers can receive around £30,000 in incentive grants for priority subjects. You may say that up to £25,000 is available to prospective teachers in Wales, through the three different incentive schemes here, one for priority areas, the second for teaching through the medium of Welsh, and the third for candidates from black and minority ethnic backgrounds. However, the truth is that no student followed those three incentive schemes combined last year. So, with this in mind, as we continue to see shockingly low numbers in key subjects, can you at least admit that the current incentive schemes are failing and must be reformed as a matter of urgency?

Thank you, Cefin. I think it's important to note that challenges with secondary recruitment are something that we're seeing across the UK, despite the fact that, in England, they have more generous incentives than we are able to offer in Wales. And the reason we aren't able to offer higher incentives is because it's about prioritising resources, isn't it? And I've spoken in the committee about the financial pressures faced in education.

We also discussed in the committee the evidence around whether incentives are effective, and that is currently mixed evidence, but it is still something that I'm actively looking at, following the evidence that the committee took, where I heard academics talk about the difference between us and England, and I have been proactively looking at that. But it has been very challenging with the current budget—with the roll-over budget. I've had to make difficult decisions and I've had to prioritise resources. It is something that we're still looking at but is subject to final settlements.

We know that if we can't recruit teachers, then the whole education system is going to collapse. So, that's why Plaid Cymru agrees with Estyn's recommendation that we need to create more attractive incentives. And we also support the view of experts at Cardiff Metropolitan University that no-cost or low-cost incentive offers must be considered. And that's why, if Plaid Cymru forms the next Government, we would close the gap with England to ensure that trainee teachers are not disadvantaged for choosing to study and work here.

So, recruiting teachers through incentives is one thing, but ensuring that they remain in the profession and that taxpayers see value for their investment is another. And that's why anyone, in my opinion, receiving a bursary for teacher training should be required to teach in Wales for a set number of years. Now, it's frankly shocking that such a basic safeguard is not already in place. And even more concerning is that the Welsh Government still doesn't track how many bursary recipients remain teaching in Wales. So, will the Cabinet Secretary confirm that what you promised in terms of the data on the number of individuals receiving the priority subject incentives who are currently teaching in Wales, that those data are published before the end of November, which you promised, or is the Welsh Government once again failing to follow through on its own commitments?

Thanks, Cefin. I'm very keen to be as transparent as possible with the data. As I said earlier, obviously incentives are a key part of the picture, but the evidence around incentives is mixed. But it is something I'm actively looking at. There is currently not the resource within my budget, within the education main expenditure group, to do that at the moment because of the roll-over budget. Obviously, the budget will now be subject to further discussions and, like other members of the Cabinet, I am hopeful that more money might become available.

I do think, though, that it is important to note that it isn't just about incentives or salary—it's about the image of the profession, and it's about the pressures and difficulties practitioners are facing when they're in the profession. We know that there are challenges with workload, they're dealing with increasing complexity with children and young people, and they're dealing with worries about school budgets. And as I told the committee when you had that session on recruitment and retention, we're actually doing better than England on retention. But I am keen to do much more by tackling the issues around workload, the other pressures around well-being and what they're dealing with. It's also about things like early career support for new teachers—making sure that it's not just that one year that they have the support for, but a longer run-in, because we know that that first five years of being a teacher is where there's most risk of them leaving the profession. I think incentives are part of the picture, but they are not the only answer. This is wider and more complex than that.

The Curriculum for Wales has led the way by ensuring essential life skills such as literacy, numeracy, digital competence, healthy eating, financial literacy, and more, are firmly embedded throughout learning. This ensures learners gain the knowledge, skills and experiences needed to thrive in education, employment and everyday life.

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. For me, personally, equipping young people with the right skills that set them up for the future is something I am truly passionate about. That is why the Welsh Conservatives have committed to introducing essential life skills in Welsh classrooms, something that I believe has been pinched by London counterparts now. These lessons would teach our young children about things like budgeting, how a mortgage works, how to open a bank account, how to apply for a passport, as well as nutrition, healthy eating and financial management. These are just a few things we would like to have included in ours. Every time I've mentioned this concept to teachers, parents or students that I've met, it's gone down really, really well. The Welsh Government claims life skills are taught within its new curriculum, but, given the autonomy that's given to schools, there's no guarantee that it's actually happening in practice. Even the Youth Parliament, based here in Wales, has highlighted inconsistencies, with some pupils getting a once-a-year session of life skills. Cabinet Secretary, will you commit to reviewing the current life skills offer within the curriculum, and adopt the Welsh Conservatives' way of thinking, to ensure that we are putting our younger generation on the best possible foothold for adulthood? Thank you.

Thank you, Natasha. This isn't about copying the Welsh Conservatives; I've just been very clear that these things are already fully embedded in our Curriculum for Wales. The four purposes set out a clear vision for learners to develop as ambitious and capable, enterprising and creative, ethical and informed, and healthy, confident citizens. The mandatory health and well-being area of learning empowers learners with essential life skills, from understanding mental health and emotional resilience to developing healthy eating habits, active lifestyles and practical cooking skills. Financial literacy is another key life skill that is mandatory in the curriculum, with learners developing an understanding of money and using concepts like expenditure and interest to allow them to make effective financial decisions. Our key integral skills—creativity and innovation, critical thinking and problem solving, personal effectiveness and planning and organising, time management, goal setting, making decisions, et cetera—run throughout the curriculum. We've also got the development of essential life skills through our digital competence framework, which is currently under review to reflect the growing importance of AI, data literacy and online safety. So, we are doing all these things. In fact, I very much welcome the Welsh Conservatives' conversion to the cause.

I'm committed to working in partnership with Powys County Council to improve educational standards for the benefit of all learners in Powys. Delivering sustained improvement in educational attainment in literacy and numeracy and improving attendance are my key priorities.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your answer. Of course, you'll be aware of Estyn's report in regard to Powys County Council's education services, which stated that there was cause for significant concern. When I look at the data, pupils in Powys achieve slightly higher attainment results when it comes to GCSE, but lower attainment results when it comes to A-level. So, A-level attainment seems to be the real issue for Powys. I appreciate these are matters for Powys County Council, but how is the Welsh Government supporting those improvements to be made, and how are you, as the education Secretary, scrutinising Powys and monitoring their performance in this area?

Thank you very much, Russell. Obviously, the Estyn report into Powys was very concerning. Independent inspection plays a key role in raising standards. Unfortunately, they did identify some concerns about the situation in Powys, and I'm really worried about that. Estyn made strong and clear recommendations to drive higher standards, and I want to see quick and sustainable improvement in Powys. I've met with the local education authority, and I know that Jayne Bryant has also met the LEA, and officials are in very regular contact with the LEA as well. The LEA has submitted a plan to tackle those issues. Estyn are monitoring the progress of the local authority against the recommendations set out in the original inspection, and they are keeping me informed of progress on that.

We have also been in discussion with Powys about additional support that we can provide to help them in tackling the issues highlighted in the inspection. We have already provided additional financial support as part of the 'schools causing concern' money that we provided last year. Powys now has an education expert peer panel, which we discussed a little in the committee last week. That will enable some people from other authorities to give them that additional support, and they've also set up and internal accelerated improvement board that is convening regularly to monitor progress and evaluate objectives and ensure accountability. But we are monitoring the situation very closely, discussing it with Estyn regularly. They'll re-inspect probably in the next few months, and I will have an update on that, and I would like to see Powys come out of category as soon as possible.

Our strategic education workforce plan will set out our future priorities for addressing recruitment challenges in schools, including the Welsh-medium sector. Meanwhile, this year, we are investing over £8 million in a range of programmes to increase the number of Welsh-medium teachers and develop the language skills of all our practitioners.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that. We have seen a moderate decline in the amount of registered teachers in Wales over the past year, roughly about a 1.7 per cent drop, I believe, with 33.4 per cent of those able to speak Welsh, and 26.9 per cent able to teach through the medium of Welsh. I believe fewer than 25 trainees have enrolled to teach the Welsh language for the past four years, which is less than a third of the Welsh Government's own target. There are also some quite major regional disparities in Wales, with counties like Gwynedd boasting the best Welsh capability of teachers, with 93 per cent holding the standard of intermediate plus, whereas Monmouthshire and Torfaen in my area sit in the lowest band nationally for the same standard. Given the current trends and regional disparities, does the Welsh Government believe its 2030 target is still realistic? If so, how will you ensure that areas with the lowest Welsh language teaching capacity, such as Monmouthshire and Torfaen, aren't left behind?

Thank you, Peter. The picture is challenging and there's no getting away from that. That's why tackling this is a priority for us. This year, we're investing over £4 million to address recruitment challenges in Welsh-medium schools. In addition, over £4 million has been allocated to the National Centre for Learning Welsh to support practitioners to develop their language skills. There isn't a quick fix, unfortunately, with this, and this is why we're taking a range of different steps to tackle this. As you've highlighted, the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Act 2025 will require us to set out the steps needed to be taken to ensure there is a sufficient workforce to deliver against the targets that will be set on local authorities through the national framework on Welsh language education and learning Welsh. We've already begun work to review the Welsh in education workforce plan as a basis for this framework, and we'll consult and collaborate closely with stakeholders over the coming months to put bespoke plans in place.

We've also got the Cynllun Pontio programme, which is a further £1.5 million investment that has introduced nearly 100 primary teachers into Welsh-medium secondary settings—and that's helping some schools in key subject areas where we've got shortages such as science, technology, engineering and mathematics. We're also continuing to fund the retention bursary for Welsh-medium and Welsh-subject teachers in English-medium schools, and we've discussed that already today.

There is focused work going on to respond to the demands of the new legislation. So, alongside the National Centre for Learning Welsh, we're already working with schools and local authorities that have approached us to support understanding of what 10 per cent of learning through the medium of Welsh looks like. As you've highlighted, there are different geographical challenges with that. And as set out in the legislation, the national centre's remit will expand and transition into the athrofa by August 2027, and that will enable us to target support at those schools who need to make the most progress in that area.

Financial literacy is a mandatory part of the Curriculum for Wales for learners aged three to 16, through the mathematics and numeracy area of learning. This ensures our learners develop the knowledge and skills needed to manage their own finances, understand financial information and make sensible financial decisions.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. As you're aware, financial literacy connects directly to everyday life, from shopping, planning trips, understanding taxes and even starting a business. Learning as children how to budget, save and spend wisely helps them make responsible choices as adults, avoiding debt and building financial security. Therefore, early understanding of money reduces the risks of poor financial habits like overspending, pay-day loans and even credit card debt later in life. Financial education in schools has been shown to encourage critical thinking, and by comparing prices, understanding value and recognising financial risks, children can develop good transferable skills that will help them in many walks of life.

With this in mind, do you believe that a financial education policy can be used to help reduce regional and socioeconomic inequalities in Wales? And if so, do you think financial literacy should be a statutory part of the Welsh national curriculum? Thank you.

Thank you, Joel. You've explained very clearly why this is important. It's a lifelong skill, isn't it, if we can equip children with the ability to learn about these things? Financial literacy is already a mandatory part of the curriculum, as I said in response to Natasha. This ensures our learners develop the skills and experience needed to manage their own finances, interpret information, make informed decisions, assess risks and become critical consumers, and we've collaborated with the Money and Pensions Service to provide financial education resources for schools in Wales to support this important area of learning. And the mandatory statements of what matters in this space explicitly include financial calculation and decision making, and that starts with learners using money and the language of money.

Towards the end of primary school, they should develop an understanding of income and expenditure and calculating profit and loss. By the end of secondary school, they should be familiar with annual equivalent rates to evaluate financial products and understand income tax rates. I have seen this in action when I visited Ysgol Gymraeg Nant Caerau in Cardiff earlier this year, where all the children were engrossed in a lesson where they had been given an allocation of money—not real money, obviously—to plan a day out for themselves and their families in Cardiff, including booking the tickets and planning to have meals et cetera. They were all absolutely engrossed in this. So, this work is happening, and I think that is a very positive thing to upskill our young people in.

Question 7 is to be answered by the Minister for Further and Higher Education. The question is to be asked by Cefin Campbell.

Veterinary services enable the animal health, animal welfare and public health standards we want to achieve for Wales. Welsh Government continues to work with Aberystwyth University and other stakeholders to ensure the provision of veterinary training meets the needs of Wales both now and in the future.

Thank you very much, Minister. Well, Wales remains without an accredited veterinary school that can award its own degrees. Although the partnership between Aberystwyth University and the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, as you've noted, has offered a short-term solution that is to be welcomed, it's becoming increasingly clear that this model is not adequate to meet the veterinary and agricultural needs of Wales in the long term, and to ensure the welfare and health of animals. 

Minister, the demand for qualified vets is rising across Wales, and while England and Scotland are investing in full veterinary training pathways, Wales is falling behind. Now, without a full veterinary school in Wales, the pipeline of locally trained vets remains constrained, leaving our agricultural sector under-served and our rural communities disadvantaged once again. So, given the situation, will you commit to providing the necessary funding and support to allow Aberystwyth University to establish a degree-awarding vet school so that Wales can train and retain its own vets and not fall further behind England and Scotland?

Thank you, Cefin Campbell, for that supplementary question. Can I just start by placing on record how proud the Welsh Government is to support the veterinary degree at Aberystwyth University? It was actually one of my first visits back in the autumn of last year, and I was absolutely blown away by the offer up there, with that innovative course backed by £3 million of European regional development fund funding through Welsh Government.

It is an innovative model that allows students to undertake the first two years of their training in Wales, with opportunities to return for clinical placements, helping build that long-term veterinary capacity in Wales. That is essential for the capacity and resilience of the sector, as you noted, and it is also vital to Wales's rural economy and communities as well. It is a key strategic investment for Wales, and we remain committed to supporting its growth and success. We are working to help build capacity in the veterinary profession there by supporting home-grown talent and reducing reliance on overseas recruitment. Collaboration is key, and we do continue to work closely with Aberystwyth and other stakeholders to ensure that the vet school meets the needs of Wales, both now and in the future. On my visit, I was really struck by the fact that this is a school that supports the rural economy by training vets with a really strong understanding of Welsh agriculture, animal health and public priorities.

Now, as autonomous organisations, universities are responsible for decisions about the provision that they offer, but I will say that we are in regular contact with Aberystwyth University. We understand that the university is currently exploring the feasibility of delivering a veterinary course based entirely in Wales, and with the option of training through the medium of Welsh as well. On my visit, it was really clear to me how valued that Welsh-medium provision was, not just by the students themselves but also particularly by farmers in the communities to be able to discuss their animal welfare needs, often at times of stress, through their mother tongue. So, it is something that we are very committed to supporting and there are conversations ongoing about that. The first students to enrol on the programme will be due to complete their degrees this academic year. Can I just end by saying as well that this investment has also provided opportunity for Aberystwyth University itself to extend its research and innovation activity in this area, and that’s another really important way that it supports the regional economy.

Prynhawn da, Gweinidog. I should put on record my declaration of interest: I am an honorary associate of the British Veterinary Association, and my father used to be the president of the overseas veterinary association. Minister, I’m very pleased to talk about the veterinary profession and the fantastic opportunities that exist in the veterinary profession. I'm interested in how the department is currently working, both with Aberystwyth and indeed the profession itself, to open up opportunities to have a career in this area. There's been a lot of change in the area since my father was a vet, particularly the number of women in the veterinary workforce, significantly different, but it is still something where increased access would also open up what is a genuinely rewarding career in working with people and animals. If the department is not currently having those conversations, will she undertake to persuade the department to have that conversation with both Aberystwyth and indeed the profession itself?

I'd like to thank Vaughan Gething for that supplementary question. It just goes to show how cross-cutting these issues are across the economy department as well. I think you're right there, Vaughan, to point out the change in the profession over the years, and particularly since Brexit, when we know there's been a real shortage, both in the recruitment and retention of vets, not just in Wales but across the UK as well.

So, the Member raises a really important question, and one that I'm keen to explore through the economic lens that I think our higher education and further education sectors need to be seeing. So, this is something that I will take away and discuss with officials.

Schools must be safe places, where everyone is treated with respect and feels valued. Building on our behaviour summit, we are driving a social partnership approach to tackle behaviour and ensure the safety and well-being of everyone in our school communities.

I'm very grateful to you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. You'll probably be aware that, last month, Sea View Community Primary School in Swansea was at the centre of a media storm, when Swansea's only Reform UK councillor teamed up and chaired a public meeting, seemingly organised by conspiracy theorist groups with links to the English Defence League, to tell parents and others that their children were being taught Islamic prayer in their school, that they would pray on mats and recite Koranic verses, and that they would all be Muslim by year 6. The problem is that none of that is true, and I understand that staff and others associated with the school have been subject to verbal threats and abuse, and have feared for their safety as a result of those false claims. Facts matter, Cabinet Secretary, and those in public life have a responsibility to the facts. Misinformation like this absolutely needs to be called out, wherever it is perpetuated, because it puts staff and others at risk. So, will you join me today in condemning that action and the consequences that has caused?

Thank you, Tom. I wholeheartedly agree with what you've said. I was really sorry and dismayed to hear of the reactions to the actions of the school, who were teaching children about different faiths. And I know that a number of staff at the school were very upset by the reaction and by comments made about the school. There is no place for this in our education system. Teachers and pupils should not be made to feel unsafe in their place of work for just doing their job.

Religion, values and ethics is a mandatory part of the curriculum and is legally required to be factual and objective. It must also take into account different major religions and non-religious worldviews in Wales, and reflect also that religious traditions in Wales are mainly Christian. We could provide extensive guidance around the curriculum, ensuring schools are clear about the requirement for teaching to be objective and pluralistic, and we are continuing to work with our faith leaders and community representatives to ensure Wales remains a place where diversity is valued and protected.

So, I very much regret the fact that Sea View was subjected to that politically motivated behaviour. We are looking, as a Government, at what more we can do to support schools who get targeted in that way—a sad reflection of the society we live in. But I wholly agree with you: facts matter, and schools and children should not be targeted by misinformation or feel threatened in this way, ever.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 3 is the topical questions. The first topical question will be from Luke Fletcher.

This is a deeply worrying time for employees, their families and the local community. The Welsh Government continues to work closely with the company, and, subject to the outcome of the consultation, stands ready to support affected employees through our proven partnership approach and support network, including the Department for Work and Pensions, Careers Wales and ReAct+.

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary.

Of course, this Senedd term has been a tough one for workers across Wales when it comes to job losses. We've had Tata Steel, 2 Sisters in Llangefni, Avara Foods in Abergavenny, Tillery Valley Foods in Abertillery, Biomet in Bridgend, university staff at risk and job losses on the high streets. Figures from September show 6,000 fewer people on company payrolls in Wales compared to previous months. I could go on on this. But, as Heledd Fychan rightly pointed out yesterday, the skills at St Athan and the workforce at St Athan are incredibly and absolutely crucially important to the future of the Welsh economy. So, what I'm interested in understanding from the Cabinet Secretary today is what conversations she has had with the company around securing that workforce, and, if large-scale redundancies actually do happen, what support is available for the workforce and those workers at the St Athan site. Heledd Fychan asked that question yesterday and we didn't get a clear answer.

I'm really grateful for the question, and this is very much a really worrying time for the workforce. I did visit the site at St Athan recently, and I was just really impressed by the skilled workforce who were there, and I also had the opportunity to meet some really, really impressive apprentices as well. Something that really struck me on that visit really was the amount of pride that people take in terms of making what are really iconic Welsh-made vehicles. Welsh Government has a long-standing relationship with Aston Martin. We have close contact with them at this time. Equally, we're in contact with the union, which is making strong representations on behalf of the workforce as well.

I'm not sure at this point I have an awful lot that I can add in terms of detail, because the company hasn't yet publicly said how many workers might be affected, for example. I know that the Trefnydd, Jane Hutt, answered a question on this yesterday. She is, as the local Member, in close contact both with the company and with the union. So, there isn't really much more detail I can share today, other than to say that, as you've set out in the opening question, there have been a number of situations where there have been redundancies and job losses in Wales. When those situations do arrive, the Welsh Government does have a tried-and-tested approach to that, working with the partners I referred to in my original answer—DWP, Careers Wales, ReAct+ and so on. So, we do stand ready to support the workforce. It is early days at the moment. As I said, we haven't heard publicly how many workers might be affected. There's a consultation process that now has to take place. But we do have those constant discussions with the company, with the union, and, through them, the workforce, to seek to provide all the support that we possibly can for them.

I joined in the business statement yesterday in making the point to the leader of the house that it was bitterly regrettable that the Government hadn't issued an in-depth statement to capture all the points that the Welsh Government are, I hope, engaging with the company on over these job losses or potential job losses. We do know, back in the spring, that, obviously, 170 jobs were lost across the Aston Martin group in an earlier round of redundancies. As I understand it, there are three pressure points. The first is the tariffs in the American market and the concern the company has that they might be excluded from getting their fair share of the first 100,000 car units at 10 per cent tariff, as opposed to 27 per cent tariff, because of the size of operation they have. Is the business Minister able to enlighten us as to what discussion she is having with her UK colleagues to highlight the importance that Aston Martin gets its fair share of the quota of tariff reduction at 10 per cent, so that they can continue to export their cars to the American market?

And what market intelligence is the Welsh Government's office in the Chinese market and across Asia feeding back about pressures within that market and consumer choice about the way that they're buying cars? Because, again, market penetration by Aston Martin in the Chinese and Asian market, sadly, is shrinking, and, if that demand is shrinking, obviously that requires fewer units to be built at St Athan. So, can you enlighten the Chamber today as to what market intelligence has been fed back to you as the Minister to give some comfort that that maybe is a short-term issue that will be corrected in the medium to long term, thus guaranteeing the future of the plant?

And can you also confirm: have Aston Martin requested from the economy Minister and the Welsh Government any financial assistance to secure the long-term operations at St Athan, given the pressures they're under? Because, like many big companies, when these twin pressure points are hitting the balance sheet, they end up burning through cash, and obviously the consolidation of cash, sadly, is leading to these potential job losses. So, is the Welsh Government in a position, along with the UK Government, if that request comes in, to step in and assist in market initiatives to increase the share and capacity at the St Athan plant?

I’m grateful for those questions. I do think some of those are slightly premature, as is the request for the in-depth statement, because at the moment, as I've said, Aston Martin hasn't said publicly how many workers might be affected, and they are entering into the consultation period. So, we are still early on, I think, in this particular situation.

The point about US quotas, though, is a really important one, and, although we did welcome the tariff reduction that has been secured for our automotive trade with the US, we've always said that the quota arrangements might be difficult for companies such as Aston Martin, in terms of their ability to grow and export, particularly because they are high-end, low-volume cars, and obviously the concern is that that 100,000 quota will get eaten up, if you like, by the high-volume car producers. So, my officials and I are in discussion with the UK Government as to what mechanisms might be available to ensure that there is a more level playing field for all automotive companies in the UK, as well as seeking clarity on whether the UK can negotiate improved conditions with the US that are similar to those that they have agreed with the EU and with Japan. So, those discussions are ongoing at the moment. I can confirm that I did have a discussion with a UK Minister this week on this particular issue, and those discussions will continue.

In a written question response back in December of last year, Cabinet Secretary, you confirmed that:

'Between 2016 and 2021 the Welsh Government provided Aston Martin and its site in St Athan £18.8m. These were'—

in the words of the written question—

'staged payments related to the completion of targets related to job creation, skills training, and Research & Development.'

Now, that £18.8 million could potentially be wasted money if these jobs are lost at that St Athan site. So, what key performance indicators, what markers, are being used by the Welsh Government when determining whether to support businesses like Aston Martin with taxpayers' money, ensuring that you, the taxpayer, and everybody in Wales gets value for money and that these companies are able to create those jobs that are there for the long term? Because, if the reports are right, if we do see job losses at St Athan, then what was this money used for?

Welsh Government has financially supported Aston Martin to establish itself in Wales and to support its ambitions for Bro Tathan. The Welsh Government awarded Aston Martin grants, as we've heard, of £18.8 million. They were linked to job creation, skills training and research and development targets. And we have also, actually, provided them with funding to support them through COVID, through a COVID-19 large business fund payment. As is the case with all Welsh Government support, there are clear conditions relating to the assistance that Aston Martin has received, and we will consider whether any repayment is appropriate. But, of course, we can't do that until the outcome of the consultation is known.

The second topical question will be asked by Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Whilst the Welsh Government has long been a strong champion of new nuclear at Wylfa, it would be inappropriate to comment on speculation.

The Cabinet Secretary, however, will understand why I am raising this question now, because there is a very real expectation that there will be an announcement, perhaps within the next 24 hours, and already there is some discussion as to the opportunities that could arise from this for Ynys Môn. For over a decade, I have been involved in discussions on Wylfa in order to ensure that we can make the most of opportunities and protect our interests as a community, and I think it's testament, the fact that we are close to a statement now, to the work and the effective partnership that has existed locally, with the council of the heart of that, and, since being elected last year, Llinos Medi has also been able to build on the key role that she played as leader of that council. We have learnt from past experience that we now need assurances that this project will progress. There have been a number of retrograde steps over the years, and we can't afford to see that happen again. But I do believe that, if this statement is made tomorrow, as we're expecting, there are a number of things that we need to raise immediately. One is to ensure that we have a voice in steering this development. I will explain what I mean by 'us'—it's us on Ynys Môn. I've always taken the view that we should ensure that the opportunities are taken advantage of, and ensure that steps are taken to mitigate any challenges that will certainly arise in any development of this nature and scale.

But the 'us' also means us here in Wales, and what I would want to see is that Welsh strategies are dovetailed into these plans for the future of Wylfa. So, can I have an assurance that the Welsh Government will work immediately from tomorrow onwards to ensure a voice for us as a nation and as communities in order to ensure that this is a scheme that works for us?

And one further appeal: in terms of developing the necessary local infrastructure, the Government said in cancelling the third Menai crossing a few years back that it was the fact that Wylfa wasn't progressing that was the driver behind that. I think the Government made a mistake in that regard, because there were a number of other reasons why we needed to proceed with the third crossing. But now, if this is back on the table, we need immediate action on strengthening the road infrastructure, including the Menai crossings, and, indeed, railways in order to reach the Wylfa site and also the port of Holyhead and so on. So, I'm asking for that assurance even before this announcement is confirmed by the UK Government.

I'm very grateful for the question. I do understand why it's been raised today, given the speculation, but, of course, the powers surrounding the deployment and decisions on timing of any new nuclear technology or technologies aren't devolved, so they are a matter for the UK Government. But, of course, a positive outcome would be huge news for Wales, and we would absolutely be working to maximise the opportunities in terms of skills, but also the supply chain.

We've had some really good progress recently in terms of our support for Boccard in Deeside. That was able through the Welsh Government to create one of the UK's largest supply chain hubs for the nuclear industry, and that really is large investment for north Wales in terms of developing skills and the nuclear talent pool, whilst also contributing to decarbonisation. It does keep more of the work for Hinkley Point C and Sizewell C in the UK, and certainly provides a pipeline of skilled workers for the future as well.

Tempting as it is to enter into the speculation in terms of any announcements, I won't do that, but I will say that Welsh Government has been pressing strongly for a positive result for Wylfa.

It would be absolutely fantastic if the news that comes through tomorrow from the UK Government does give the go-ahead for a small modular reactor at Wylfa. At a time when unemployment is increasing, 900 full-time jobs and several thousand more during construction would be fantastic for Ynys Môn, and indeed Wales. Of course this follows the amazing work undertaken by the previous MP for Ynys Môn, Virginia Crosbie, and the previous UK Conservative Government over many years. In 2022, the UK Government's British energy security strategy named Wylfa as a key site, and the Nuclear Energy (Financing) Act 2022 put in place new legislation to address the financing of new nuclear. In 2023, the UK-wide future nuclear enabling fund was launched from Wylfa, and Great British Nuclear was established. In 2024, the Wylfa site was purchased, enabling this amazing opportunity in 2025. Cabinet Secretary, if all our hopes and wishes come true tomorrow and it's a positive announcement, will you clarify what steps you will take to ensure that we have the skills in place so that as many jobs go locally, to our local employment force, as possible? Diolch.

Again, I'm really grateful for the question this afternoon. I agree that Wylfa is particularly well-placed to attract investment in new nuclear because of its nuclear legacy and the highly skilled local workforce. We'll be continuing to work with the UK Government to ensure that Wales's potential in the nuclear sector is fully realised.

I've given the example of my recent visit to Boccard, and I know that Jack Sargeant has also visited, to meet some of the apprentices there who are benefiting from the opportunities for new employment and new careers in this particular sector. So, Wales, I think, is already well-placed to make the most of any opportunities that might come. We continue to work hard to secure a positive announcement for Wylfa. I've had the opportunity to speak directly to the UK Government Secretary, Ed Miliband, to make the case for Wylfa. Like, I think, everybody, we hope for a positive outcome to those discussions.

I very much welcome the question from Rhun ap Iorwerth on this matter, and welcome the response from the Welsh Government. We all recognise that powers on this matter do rest in Westminster, but it will only be delivered as a project, of course, with the proactive and active support of this Government here. That means that this Government needs to be prepared for an announcement from London and needs to be able to move with agility and some speed to ensure that it is able to bring together partners, both within local government and elsewhere around sir Fôn, but also to ensure that it has the resources in place to maximise the benefit of this investment to Wylfa, to sir Fôn, to north Wales, to north-west Wales, but also to ensure that the supply chains are in place to benefit the whole of the country. I remember visiting Hinkley Point some time ago, and the number of Wales-based workers there who were desperate to come home to Wales to work in Wales again, in the industry, was shocking. What we need to do is to ensure that we have the channels in place to enable them to work again in Wales and to deliver this project in Wylfa.

I'm grateful for those comments. It does remind us how important partnership working is in terms of the delivery of major energy projects. We talked recently in the Chamber about floating offshore wind and how important it is that, when there's investment in that sector, we make sure that we retain as much of the value as we possibly can here in Wales, both in terms of manufacturing and the supply chain, but also the skills agenda. If there is to be a positive announcement in relation to Wylfa, it's absolutely true that it will only be delivered successfully in partnership with the Welsh Government because of our responsibilities around skills, housing, infrastructure, transport, and so on. But then it also reminds us how important partnership with local government is as well. So, again, I think that we all hope for a positive outcome in terms of Wylfa; I know that many of us have been pressing very hard for that positive outcome. Should we have that positive outcome, I know that it will take partnership working on all sides to make the most of it and make sure that we retain as much value as we can in Wales.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 4 today is the 90-second statements. The first is from Rhys ab Owen.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Innovator of Welsh language education, educator of the language to a host of children and adults, and one of the saviours of the language in Patagonia—all descriptions of Gwilym Roberts who passed away last week. Gwilym was a native of Rhiwbina here in Cardiff, but he kept his parents' north Wales accent throughout the nine decades that he lived in the capital city.

He established cylch meithrin Rhiwbina back in 1959, and many, many children have been taught there, including people who've gone on to make a huge contribution to the Welsh language and to Wales. Gwilym taught Welsh to thousands of children in English-medium schools in deprived areas in Wales. Then, in the evenings, he was part of the team that started the Wlpan course, and he taught Welsh to hundreds of adults, completely voluntarily.

In 1991, having taken early retirement, he was the first Welsh teacher from Wales to go to Patagonia, and I’ve had the privilege of meeting many of the linchpins of Y Wladfa, and many of them say that they're fluent in Welsh thanks to Gwilym Roberts.

He was delighted when Welsh language services restarted in his beloved Rhiwbina, and it will be strange going to Bethel without seeing Gwilym at the organ.

'Ar Daf yr iaith a dyfodd'—'By the Taff the language grew'—was the motto of Ysgol Bryntaf here in Cardiff. And one could say the same thing about the River Chubut too: 'On the banks of the Chubut river the language grew'. Welsh is to be heard on the banks of the River Taff, and on the banks of the Chubut, and we have Gwilym Roberts to thank for that. Thank you very much.

On Saturday, the Royal Town Planning Institute celebrated World Town Planning Day. This year marks the seventy-sixth anniversary of the event, and it began in Buenos Aires in 1949, two years after the Town and Country Planning Act 1947 was passed at Westminster by the Labour Government of 1945 to 1951. This seventy-sixth anniversary also coincided with being 25 years since the establishment of the RTPI in Wales. This year’s theme, 'With Planning We Can', celebrated planners and brought them together to show how planning is a key lever of positive change for people and communities.

World Town Planning Day is a day to unite and acknowledge how crucial planning is to deliver the homes and infrastructure we need for places to be healthy, well-connected, inclusive and sustainable. It’s all about recognising the vital role that planners play, as towns, cities and communities continue to evolve, especially as changes come about with the work of the Planning (Wales) Bill.

To mark World Town Planning Day, the RTPI held a number of events for planning professionals and its members, ranging from online seminars to a lecture held by Cardiff University school of geography and planning. Similarly, the RTPI are soon publishing a state of the profession report for Wales, which details the trends in the planning profession this year. As well as this, the RTPI recently published research on digital planning in Wales, and how it can not only improve planning’s reputation in Wales, but work to ease resource pressures and improve planning outcomes. RTPI Cymru believe that ensuring that the Welsh planning system is fully resourced, plan-led, responsive, effective and accessible is key to delivering a positive impact to Welsh places.

I'd like to take a moment today to pay tribute to a truly remarkable group of young men from my region in north Wales, known locally as the Westheads. They’ve taken on an extraordinary challenge, cycling all the way from Llangollen to Thailand. Yes, you heard right: from the banks of the River Dee to south-east Asia on two wheels. They’re doing it not for fame, not for glory, but for a cause that’s close to their hearts, raising money for the British Heart Foundation, in memory of a friend’s father. So far, they’ve managed to raise over £5,000, which is halfway to their target of £10,000. They have a JustGiving page, by the way, and I’m sure all donations would be gratefully received.

They set off 100 days ago, and have already pedalled thousands of miles, through Europe, across the Balkans, and now into Turkey, and their next stops will be Georgia and Kazakhstan, as they continue their journey eastwards. They hope to reach their destination in October of next year; an incredible two-year odyssey, powered by determination, friendship and a sense of purpose. Along the way, they’ve shown what the best of our communities can produce: resilience, good humour and a spirit of adventure that inspires us all.

I know that everyone here will join me in wishing the Westheads safe travels, fair weather and strong legs for the journey ahead, and indeed in congratulating them on flying the flag for Llangollen, for Wales, and for the very best of human spirit.

On Monday, Wales celebrated the hundredth anniversary of the birth of a man who became a trailblazer for up and coming actors; someone who was an inspiration to many people across Wales, showing them that being Welsh was not a barrier to their ambitions, and who became a global icon.

On 10 November 1925, Richard Walter Jenkins Jr was born in his family home in Pontrhydyfen. His father was a miner. His mother worked in the local pub, the Miners Arms. As the twelfth of 13 siblings, he grew up in a Welsh-speaking household until his mother, Edith, died tragically when he was just two. Richard was then raised by his older sister, Cis, or Cecilia, which was her proper name, and her husband at their home in Taibach. It was a close-knit family, shaped by coal, steel and the chapel.

While attending Port Talbot Secondary School, teacher Philip Burton recognised Richard’s talents, and opened doors to enrich them. Richard later took his mentor’s surname and the world came to know him as Richard Burton. Richard's two passions were acting and rugby, and it was the former that he truly excelled at. Performing in local plays and eisteddfodau, he developed his acting skills, built on a good reputation. And following his time at Oxford University, he began a professional career, initially on stage across the UK, but also having a few roles in films. He moved on to more film work, when the world became aware of his talent and when he became an international star, nominated for an Oscar seven times.

There is no doubt that Richard had a colourful career, but he retained strong links with Port Talbot, proudly promoting his Welsh identity internationally and returning regularly to Pontrhydyfen—the one place where he felt that he really belonged. Thus it's fitting that, here in the Senedd, we are commemorating Richard, an actor of international stature and acclaim, a man who showed to others who followed that being Welsh was not a barrier to their ambitions, and a man who was proud of his Welsh heritage. Richard would have been 100 this week, but he sadly died well before his time at the age of just 58. A short life, but a great legacy. We will never forget that talent nor that voice, and what a memorable voice.

Thank you for everything, Richard.

We'll move on now to item 5 on our agenda, a debate on the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee report, 'The response to recent storms'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion, Llyr Gruffydd.

Thank you very much. I'm pleased to open today's debate on the committee's report on the response to the recent storms. I'd also like to thank everyone who contributed to our inquiry, particularly, if I may say, those members of the public whose lives were so severely affected by storms Bert and Darragh over a three-week period in November and December of 2024.

Wales was battered by those two storms, wasn't it? From Pontypridd to Holyhead, there was severe damage. Homes were flooded, infrastructure was overwhelmed, and tens of thousands of people were left without power. The purpose of our inquiry was to see what lessons were to be learned from that, as we face a future where we'll see more frequent and more severe storms.

Our report made 25 recommendations to strengthen Wales's resilience in the face of such storms, and I'm pleased to say that the Welsh Government has accepted the majority of the committee's recommendations.

I'm sure that most of us will have checked the weather forecast this morning. For many of us, it's become a part of our daily routine—perhaps to help us decide what to wear, what to do over the weekend, or whether we should risk walking or driving to work. But, of course, there is a far more important purpose to weather forecasting: to predict extreme weather and to alert us of potential disruption.

However, many respondents to our inquiry felt that the forecasts and warnings ahead of storm Bert had been inadequate. The Met Office issued a yellow rain warning, namely the lowest tier of warning, prior to storm Bert, but Pontypridd received no flood warning until floodwater was already over a foot deep in the streets. So, it's not surprising that some residents felt let down by the flood alert systems, after being promised that things had improved since storm Dennis in 2020, after being informed that 'fantastic things had been put in place'—that's what they were told at that time.

We heard that technical limitations might be affecting the accuracy of flood forecasting in Wales, which is very concerning to us as a committee. We're currently seeing divergence from England, where there's greater focus and investment on computational modelling in forecasting and longer lead times, and piloting forecasts for surface water flooding. The Welsh Government needs to ensure that Natural Resources Wales has access to the latest forecasting technologies, and, of course, that adequate funding is provided so that it can influence research and development priorities. We need to ensure that Wales doesn't fall behind in this regard.

The level of public engagement with weather and flood warnings remains worryingly low in Wales. We're particularly concerned about disparities in engagement among lower income households and those who are digitally excluded—communities that are often most vulnerable, if I may say, to flooding. In 2024, the British Red Cross found that only 9 per cent of the lowest income households across the UK were signed up for warnings, which compares to 31 per cent in the highest income areas. We asked for an update on what the Welsh Government and Natural Resources Wales are doing to promote awareness of warning systems among more vulnerable groups in our report.

We're also concerned about the inadequacy of data held on vulnerable people. Utilities companies maintain priority service registers, which are meant to help them identify and deploy resources to vulnerable residents following service outages. However, we heard that these are often inaccurate and are often out of date. There is an urgent need for a unified, integrated system, shared between key responders.

We heard that the Welsh Government has developed the JIGSO project, which can provide up-to-date information on at-risk households to responders in emergency situations. However, not a single other contributor to our inquiry referred to this project. This could be due to a lack of awareness. We did ask the Welsh Government for clarity on the use and effectiveness of JIGSO, and whether it could replace the priority service registers.

Community resilience emerged as one of the most positive elements of the response to recent storms. We heard that neighbours and local groups and businesses played a crucial role in helping each other, from using tractors to get people out of their homes, to clearing debris and providing lamps and torches. However, formal engagement between local authorities and community or voluntary organisations varied considerably. We believe that the Welsh Government should facilitate community-led resilience planning through the establishment of co-designed local flood plans, and community resilience groups.

We heard compelling evidence of the wide-ranging impacts that severe weather events have had on residents, businesses and communities. Although financial support has been made available following recent storms, emergency payments to affected households often do not reflect the true cost of flood damage or the long-term disruption this damage causes. This is particularly true for uninsured households and those who are affected time and time again. We did recommend that the Welsh Government should review the adequacy of current emergency funding. We are very disappointed that this recommendation, as well as our recommendation that the Welsh Government should introduce grant funding to enable individual homes and businesses to put in place preventative resilience measures, such as floodgates, have both been rejected.

This is particularly concerning given the evidence we heard about the impact of flooding events on mental health. Contributors to our inquiry described the emotional toll of coping with the aftermath of the damage, and the persistent uncertainty surrounding extreme weather events, especially for those who face these disruptions time and time again. We're concerned that mental health support is not routinely integrated into flood response and recovery. The same priority must be given to the well-being of residents as is given to physical infrastructure repair. We did recommend in our report that mental health support should be embedded in local flood response strategies and made accessible through community-based services and partnerships. It's disappointing that this was only accepted in principle by the Government.

As we all know, a wide range of infrastructure across Wales was damaged during storms Bert and Darragh. Much of our infrastructure was not designed for today’s climate, and in some cases it's reached or exceeded even its intended design life. One contributor told us that their street was flooded from within the flood barrier due to an ineffective storm drainage system, which is very concerning. The upgrading of drainage systems, culverts and flood defences must be a priority for those areas that are at risk.

Local authorities spoke of the limitations of the Welsh Government’s emergency financial assistance scheme. This scheme partly refunds local authorities for repairs, above a certain threshold. Some storm-related damage fell outside the scheme’s scope, and some local authorities felt the thresholds were set too high. We recommended reviewing these thresholds to ensure that they reflect the financial capacity of local authorities to respond to repeated severe weather events.

Traditionally, flood defence has focused on solid, grey infrastructure, as it's called, such as drains, culverts and floodwalls. Witnesses supported shifting towards longer term, catchment-scale and nature-based approaches to flood mitigation. The Welsh Government currently publishes a 10-year strategy for flood and coastal erosion. We're not convinced that a 10-year strategy provides the appropriate level of long-term planning that's needed these days. Long-term planning and investment is needed now, of course, more than ever, but is 10 years a sufficient period to look ahead?

Climate change is clearly affecting the severity and frequency of extreme weather events in Wales. The intensity of storms Bert and Darragh, and the impact that both storms had on communities across Wales, reinforce the need for a strategic long-term approach to both planning and investment in resilience. That's the core message of the committee in our report. I look forward to hearing the comments of Members and particularly the response of the Government.

Thank you to Llyr, our Chairman, for giving a really good outline of the work we've been doing on the climate change committee. It is widely known now that we need to increase our preparedness for extreme weather events. This was on the back of many other storms previously, but storms Bert and Darragh really did impact a lot of people in Wales. They affected our flood defences, our infrastructure, our constituents and our business owners. Just in storm Bert, more than 700 properties were flooded and 95,000 homes were without power on 7 December. Around one in eight properties in Wales are now classed as at risk of flooding. With these events becoming increasingly frequent, we need more urgent action and lessons do need to be learned going forward.

The Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee set out 25 recommendations in our report. Of these, the Welsh Government fully accepted 21, accepted two in principle, and rejected two, which baffles me still. The first recommendation rejected was recommendation 14, which calls for the Cabinet Secretary to review the adequacy of the current emergency funding provided by the Welsh Government for households affected by flooding. Too often, these properties have been flooded and insurance companies just do not want to know them. So, we have to have some kind of contingency fund in place. This was rejected on the grounds that the emergency finance assistance scheme is designed to respond to these specific events. It's intended to cover immediate costs, and though not a replacement for insurance, it does help these householders who find themselves in absolute disarray and practically homeless.

However, the inquiry found that residents and businesses reported that the emergency support and funding was not anywhere near sufficient to cover the damage. This is an issue throughout the UK. A British Red Cross survey found that only 5 per cent of those affected by flooding across the UK received enough financial support from their local council, and only 24 per cent felt that the support provided was adequate. I appreciate that the emergency finance assistance scheme does provide some support, but in light of the severity and increasing frequency of recent storms, I do encourage the Welsh Government to reconsider this recommendation and to undertake a review of the adequacy of the current funding. This would certainly help ensure that support is sufficient for those who need it.

The second recommendation that the Welsh Government rejected was to introduce grant funding to enable individual homes and businesses to put in place preventative resilience measures, such as floodgates and other flood prevention. This was rejected on the basis that funding already exists, and that the Welsh Government and risk management authorities are working with local communities to identify the best combination of measures to address specific threats. I like the point that Llyr Gruffydd made earlier, the fact that we tend to think of flood defence works as being all grey and concrete, and about culverts and drains, and what have you, but the nature-based approach is certainly seeing a difference in my own constituency, where we've got the work going on between partner organisations on the Migneint, to do with the peat. It's fair to say that we are seeing results from that kind of nature-based flood prevention. More needs to be done to promote those kinds of schemes, especially for those living in high-risk flood areas, as prevention is always the best way to reduce the impact of extreme weather events.

We recognise the financial and physical pressures that extreme weather events place on communities. An area that is often overlooked, though, is the impact on those residents and business owners in terms of their own mental health. People experience damage to their homes and businesses, the loss of valuable items—in many cases, sentimental: photographs, things that might not mean a lot to some people. Not everybody has photos online. People still have boxes of photographs, and this is people's lives gone in a flash.

In written evidence to the committee, the British Red Cross identified that 40 per cent of those who had experienced flooding reported mental health needs, yet 26 per cent said that the support provided was nowhere near adequate. So, we need to factor this into our extreme weather preparedness plans and funding. 

The inquiry into recent storms also highlighted issues with the alert system, with some residents feeling let down by flood alerts. I have to say at this point that, very recently, we have had two instances of heavy rain and flooding—

Janet, you will have to conclude after this, okay?

Okay. The new alerts coming through now have been amazing. Let's all work together, so that we can provide adequate funding and support for those stricken by by floods on far too many occasions. Diolch.

Thank you to the committee Chair and the committee's team for assisting us in this important work. I would like to echo the Chair's particular thanks to the residents who provided us with evidence, who have been involved with this consultation, and who have been affected themselves by flooding. As we've heard, it is something that has such an impact on people's quality of life.

Storms, or bad weather, are becoming more common. The kinds of storms that used to be considered a once-in-a-century event are now happening on an almost annual basis. As we say, the goalposts have changed so much. The floods in Carmarthenshire last week were terrible, and towns and streets in my own region see problems time and time again.

That is having an increasing impact, because it is a topic that many of us raise regularly. It's not just the physical scars that are left by flooding. It's not just damage to landscape. The impacts of storms on mental health are intense—those hidden scars.

I know families where children fear going to bed when it's raining heavily because they fear that they will lose everything that's downstairs. They fear whether their pets will be safe overnight because they have suffered flooding in the past.

Our report makes it clear how crucial it is to put communities at the heart of our response to these storms. The infrastructure commission has looked at this too—the need to co-ordinate and work with communities. They, like the committee, have found an issue of social equality here. We need to ensure that we empower every community.

An example: we heard of the inequalities or the inequities in terms of which communities had signed up to flood warning systems. The Chair has already quoted the statistic where the British Red Cross had found that only 9 per cent of the lowest income households across the UK were signed up for these warnings, compared with 31 per cent in higher income areas.

Too often, lower income households are described as harder to reach. I think that that's the wrong focus, because it implies a judgment on them, instead of a failure from the centre. The Government and NRW, in this instance, must do more to provide these systems and to promote these systems to groups who would be considered more vulnerable. Yes, there are problems too with priority service registers. They are not consistent. People are not automatically signed up. The information is not shared, and improvements have to be seen there. 

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, we've raised concerns about our ageing infrastructure. Now, the 14m deep sinkhole that opened on someone's driveway in Merthyr Tydfil was caused because of a culvert underneath it that had failed, and it was a culvert from the Victorian era. Blaenau Gwent council told us a lot of its own infrastructure is at the end of its designed life, which is an ominous phrase indeed. There are idiosyncrasies in the topography of some areas too, like those Valleys communities, where hilly terrain, houses built on top of ageing culverts, increased rainfall, not to mention the coal tips above them—well, these start to leave some communities even more at risk than others, even more exposed. A perfect storm indeed. Quiet catastrophes waiting to happen. 

Now, so many Valleys towns and terraced streets were built quickly by mining companies looking to maximise how many homes could be built. They gave no thought to tomorrow, to the resilience of those towns teetering on the top of the hillsides. We have to find answers for their failings. We have to ensure that those communities feel safe in their homes, and that will take a nation to accomplish. 

Usually at the end of a committee inquiry, and at the end of a debate like this, I would say that I hope that the recommendations will be implemented. In this case, Dirprwy Lywydd, hope simply isn't enough. There is a duty on the Government and this place to ensure that this happens, and I'd like to thank the people of Wales for their resilience.

Can I just firstly thank the committee for the report, which builds on, I think, a whole series of reports that contribute to our learning and understanding of what's happening with climate change and flooding? In fact, it builds on some of the work and some of the conclusions we had from storm Dennis and the recommendations that we made in this report in the local Pontypridd constituency at that particular time. Can I also say that, at this moment, with the weather warnings that we have, our thoughts obviously go out to those people who live in those areas where there has been flooding? Because the impact, the concerns people have, the stress and the pressures that it creates on whole families as to whether they'll be impacted again, and the points made about the mental health—they're ones I think we recognised at the time of storm Dennis, but obviously are ones that actually continue on. 

I have a constituency, of course, that's flooded in many areas. When I first was selected to stand for the constituency of Pontypridd, Ilan was the area that regularly flooded. And I remember then the local councillor, who is now the deputy leader of Rhondda Cynon Taf, Maureen Webber, being up to her waist in water with a child in her hand carrying that through. And it was my predecessor, Jane Davidson, who, with the help of European money, was able to develop the area, which has now more or less resolved most of the flooding problems in the area of Ilan above Rhydyfelin. It is no longer the issue that every year now, whenever it rains, there are concerns. Of course, there are things that have to be done to make sure culverts are clear and so on.

In February 2020, of course, we had storm Dennis, and 1,800 homes in my constituency were impacted. Three hundred and twenty-one of them were flooded in various parts of the constituency from Pontypridd, Trehafod, Nantgarw, Treforest and Trallwn. We learnt a lot from that particular experience about the flood defences, the warnings failure, the lack of floodgates and the issues around drainage. And it has to be said, of course, a lot of money has now since been invested—about £100 million in Rhondda Cynon Taf.

A lesson that we learnt from that period is also an understanding of how the flooding was coming about, because of the concentrated rainfall in certain areas, particularly in our areas where we have the Valleys. But it also helped us to understand some of the mythology that was also emerging—that maybe it was due to Brecon releasing water that flooded down, or whether it was Cardiff Bay barrage holding back water, all of which, I think, have effectively now been disproved, and we have an understanding now as to the impact. Because with climate change, we're going to have more and more of these very adverse events, which were meant to be one in 100 years, but clearly are now every several years.

Storms Bert and Darragh showed us in November 2024 that a lot of the work that had been done was successful—the clearing of culverts, some of the new defences, some of the reconstruction—and some of the work that is still ongoing, but, of course, areas like Sion Street, Egypt Street, Pontypridd's centre were still impacted, and it's no consolation to an area that's been flooded to say, ‘Well, lots of other areas were actually really quite successful’, and we have to address those, particularly streets like Sion Street.

Egypt Street—I can say I was at a meeting only last week with the residents there with NRW and with Rhondda Cynon Taf. I'm very pleased with some of the lessons learnt there. We now understand why that had been consistently flooding, and it's partly because it is actually water from the highways going into the drainage system but not being able to egress into the river because the river was rising and of course the conflict of pressures. I’m really pleased that Rhondda Cynon Taf is now authorising the funding of a mini pumping station there, which hopefully I think will resolve that.

Can I say that, of the issues that still remain that really emerged from the report and that we need to focus on, there are two particular things? Obviously, there's the issue with regard to forecasting, but there are still big issues with regard to insurance, the insurance in respect of businesses and the insurance in respect of homes, and recognising the issue also of landlords, because many homes have quite a transient population, and the obligation of the landlords and tenants coming in who don't know the history of areas is something that we really need to address.

I thank the committee for that report, and obviously this is something that we are going to have to continue to pay considerable attention to in coming years.

I thank the committee for this report. Thank you for such a positive response to the request from Members for you to hold this inquiry, and thank you for the opportunity to be part of the inquiry and to present evidence.

My thoughts, like everyone, go out to those residents that contributed to this report, and who didn't sleep last night because they were concerned that they were going to flood again. I saw their messages, received e-mails, and it was the same thing happening again: drains not being cleared, and not knowing when they would be cleared, being worried what that would mean for their homes; ringing, asking for sandbags and being told that none were available, or, ‘Don't worry, you won't flood’ or, ‘Ring back if it looks more likely that you will flood.’ That's no consolation if you're looking at that river getting higher and you're receiving an alert on your phone.

Similarly, the committee refers to people who are vulnerable in our communities. When I rang last year to make the council aware of a resident that was unable to move at all—she was downstairs, immobile, relied on carers—I was told to ring back if the water started coming in to get support for her. This is the reality that's still going on in our communities. Five years on from storm Dennis some lessons have been learnt, a number haven't, and that's why I am pleased that the committee has looked into this issue. But to hear last night of residents being told yet again to ring back if the water starts coming—it's not good enough. Every community—and this is in Pontypridd, somewhere that’s been referenced this week, or last week, at COP30. If we can't get it right in a community that we know will flood, that unfortunately has suffered flooding, then what hope do we have?

Therefore, I would like to focus my contribution today specifically on recommendations 12 and 13, which have been accepted by Government. But I would like to challenge if what's been accepted and what's been implemented are the right steps, and specifically around not progressing the idea of a Welsh flood forum, but funding the National Flood Forum.

In Scotland there is a Scottish Flood Forum, established since 2009. I've had a number of discussions over the years with both the Scottish Flood Forum and the National Flood Forum, which, despite its name, is England only, but is sometimes funded to work in Wales. I think it's high time that we saw a Welsh solution, because the way the Scottish Flood Forum works with the National Flood Forum in England is that they have members on one another's boards, they co-ordinate. There is something lacking here in Wales, and I would like to understand what assessment has the Welsh Government made about whether there is a need for a Welsh flood forum here in Wales. Do you see the funding of the National Flood Forum from England to work here in Wales as a temporary solution whilst you still explore the options? Therefore, is the establishment of a Welsh flood forum still very much on the table? If so, when can we see movement on this? When can it be progressed? Five years on from storm Dennis, I believe we need firmer solutions for our communities. 

If I may also focus on recommendation 15 that relates to property flood resilience, something that is rejected by Welsh Government. I would ask if this is reconsidered, and I would ask also if the Cabinet Secretary has discussed this with the Association of British Insurers, in particular. You may be aware that they've looked at work by JBA, commissioned by Flood Re, that uses Pontypridd as a case study, that demonstrates the return on investment of PFR. You spend so much money as a Government supporting communities when they are flooded. A number of the measures with PFR—they're still uncertain if those are the right measures being recommended to people. It's a relatively new industry, and there is a feeling that's coming through in a number of reports now that we need Government to be part of that—that people who want to protect their homes are able to trust that the solutions they're putting in are the right ones. So, I would ask if you would reconsider in terms of recommendation 15, in particular, and have those further discussions.

What's clear is that, yes, there has been investment, but communities such as those that I represent—we're not just talking about properties being destroyed, but potentially people dying in their homes, or people dying trying to help those in their homes. So, we need to find solutions. There are more recommendations here that could be progressed. Urgency is needed, because I fear for the communities that I represent. We can't protect them all, but there's so much more we can do and should be doing.

I'm grateful to the committee for the work that they've done on this matter, and the way in which the report has analysed and shone a light on lots of these different matters, because many of us will have experienced trauma and the distress caused by flooding in the communities we represent. In Blaenau Gwent, we have experienced significant flooding events in Cwm and in Llanhilleth, and the same homes have been flooded on numerous occasions. The Deputy First Minister is also keenly aware of the coal tip in Cwmtillery, which he visited and has driven a strong response on this issue. And as we approach the anniversary of that, I should say how grateful I am to the Deputy First Minister for the leadership that he's shown in responding to those issues.

But the challenge facing us today is bigger than has faced us in the past. The committee is quite right in making the point that the issues we face in the future are going to be greater. Climate change is already having an impact on our communities, and we need to plan for a future where significant and disruptive weather events are a more regular occurrence. That means everything we've assumed about the past has to change as we plan for the future.

For many people affected by these storms, we do need to have the forecasts that are described in the report, and I recognise that both the Welsh Government and NRW are seeking to ensure that forecasts are not only accurate, but are acted upon and the warnings effectively communicated. But I also hope that Welsh Government and NRW are working closely with local government to share best practice, but also to ensure that all councils have access to sufficient resource to respond quickly and effectively to any escalating issue.

I will say this directly to the Deputy First Minister: I was astonished to discover that NRW do not regard the removal of trees growing into a river course as a priority in my constituency. Let me tell you, Deputy First Minister, the people of that community in Blaenau Gwent do regard this as a priority, and so would anyone else whose homes are at risk again from flooding this winter. This is exactly the sort of preparation and planning that all communities at risk have an absolute right to expect, and all public authorities to work together to deliver the sort of preparation that they require. At present in Blaenau Gwent, it appears clear to me that NRW is not treating this work as a sufficient priority, and I would hope that NRW would reflect on this and that the Deputy First Minister, if necessary, would intervene with NRW to ensure that this work is completed.

Where we've experienced flooding in the past, Blaenau Gwent has responded quickly to flooding, but they also need to have the resources that they're able to deploy when needed. I hope that the Welsh Government will be ensuring that all local authorities have the resources they require to respond urgently when needed. I would like to see the Welsh Government playing an active role as a catalyst and as a convenor, bringing the relevant agencies and authorities together, learning the lessons and ensuring that resources are always available whenever they're needed. The point that was made earlier in the debate about homes insurance, I think, is one of the really crucial things that we are learning at the moment. I remember the UK Government bringing in the Flood Re scheme, and, at the time, I thought it was a good scheme that delivered for people. But the evidence I think we are seeing growing at the moment, and what I've heard and seen from people within the borough of Blaenau Gwent, is that there is not sufficient capacity within Flood Re to deliver the sorts of insurance schemes that we need.

But we also need to understand that people's homes are now being impacted by weather events outside of simply flooding, and I'm thinking again, Deputy First Minister, of Cwmtillery. And the extent and nature of flood events has increased to such a scale and to such an extent that I believe we now need a renewed scheme that is able to provide the security and insurances that everybody has a right to expect.

We also need to look to renew the infrastructure that we have available to us. Again, in Cwmtillery and Llanhilleth and in Cwm, we need to renew the basic water management infrastructure. Culverts that were put in place over a century ago are no longer fit for purpose. This needs to continue to be a priority for Welsh Government moving forward. I recognise the scale of the investment that Welsh Government has made in this area over recent years, but what we are hearing and what we are seeing is telling us that we need to increase this scale again, and then we need to ensure that we have the maintenance regime in place as well.

So, there is a very powerful message coming from the committee. I recognise the Government has responded positively to most, if not all, of the recommendations from the committee. What I hope we will see from the response of the Deputy First Minister is not only that response, but the sense of urgency of the people we represent, and the people who, last night in Cwm, were watching the rain falling and the water rising and were hoping and praying that their homes wouldn't be flooded again. I think there is a responsibility here with the Welsh Government to ensure that all is done to ensure that those people, wherever they may be, either in Blaenau Gwent or elsewhere—

And that's a good point to finish on, Alun.

—are able to sleep in peace at night.

I call the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to start by thanking the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, and all the groups and individuals that provided evidence, for their work over recent months to assess and strengthen the effectiveness of our response to storms here in Wales. Getting this right in the face of an increasingly changeable climate is more important than ever before. I welcome the committee's report and the recommendations made within it. I have accepted many recommendations, and I have already started to seek ways of delivering those.

Now, the recent storms have shown the importance of robust emergency response and resilience and, I have to say, of constantly learning and improving our preparation and our response and our recovery as well. In our response, as the Chair noted, we accepted the majority of recommendations. I don't have time to repeat the detailed response to every one now, but I will try and cover some important matters that have been raised.

Let me start by saying that, in recognition of the burgeoning threat from such storms, this year, the Welsh Government invested £77 million in flood resilience activities right across Wales. It's a record allocation for a single year, and it builds on previous years, as well, of high funding. It reflects our unyielding commitment to safeguarding the people of Wales. This does translate, by the way, into the lessons-learned aspect that I referred to. We've not stood still since we saw, in 2021, severe storms that hit the south Wales Valleys. Since 2021, for example, we funded Rhondda Cynon Taf to complete seven schemes in the local authority worth about £3.9 million, benefiting over 1,000 properties, and this doesn't include the £2.7 million we've already invested in small-scale schemes in RCT since 2021—the sort of ones that are never easily seen, but they're very important ones. Now, this work has benefited over 2,300 properties. But, as Members have said, it's not just in RCT and South Wales Central; we need to do more, and in partnership—the point made by Alun Davies there—with our local authorities and with our risk management authorities as well. We all have an important part to play.

We continue to work very closely with the Met Office and the Flood Forecasting Centre to ensure the most up-to-date information is used to inform our response to floods and storms. So, Natural Resources Wales operates now a 24/7 flood warning information system tailored to the needs of communities in Wales. This new system, with significant multimillion-pound funding from Welsh Government, delivers clearer, more timely warnings—and Janet Finch-Saunders remarked on how she's seen the improvement in this, which I really welcome, because it's constantly being refined in light of the lessons learned with each storm incident in different areas and the way they behave in different areas. But this new system delivers clearer, more timely warnings and allows duty officers to focus on the highest risks.

We're also very committed to improving public engagement with flood warnings, a point picked up by several Members speaking today, including through NRW's annual BeFloodReady campaign. This aims to raise awareness and encourage sign-up to warning services, especially among the most vulnerable and those who are digitally excluded. But, as many Members have said, Dirprwy Lywydd, it’s that these extreme weather events are getting stronger and they're happening more often. And we can take some comfort, at least, in that our resilience is increasing as we learn the lessons and build that resilience in. An effective response actually requires seamless co-operation between Government, risk management authorities, our tireless emergency services, who at this time of year and forward, and even through the summer, are constantly on standby to take action, and also our communities, all coming together, united in a cause. And Heledd, you rightly say that we need all of those actors to be working together and responding in the right way at the right time.

Our local resilience forums have strengthened winter preparedness and they've been supported by increased Welsh Government funding for multi-agency training and severe weather plans. Part of this is what we put in place before it happens, and we do an extensive amount of planning. These plans ensure that all partners are ready to respond quickly and effectively to flooding and to other emergencies. The JIGSO platform—and we're doing a lot of work; I'd refer people to the committee's report, but also our response, because it goes into quite some detail on a number of these issues—the JIGSO platform developed by Welsh Government provides the emergency responders with real-time mapping of vulnerable individuals, helping to target support where it is needed most. But we're doing a lot more in that space as well, based on the committee and based on what we've learned, because you'll have seen over the past year that we tend to dive deep into what we learn from each instance and say, 'Right, where now can we deal with issues of data protection of individuals and so on, but actually drive forward the data capture for those vulnerable individuals?'

We also encourage households to take steps to support personal resilience ahead of storms. So, I really would urge everyone to take out flood insurance. The point has been made about Flood Re as well, and I was also there, Alun, when John Prescott was putting that together, and it was a welcome innovation. But Flood Re, of course, comes with caveats. It does, without a doubt. But it's a provision by the insurance industry to try and provide for those who otherwise would not be able to find insurance. But we recognise it's not perfect. But, just to say, NRW provide a flood-risk assessment by postcode for anyone who's not sure of what their flood risk is. And for anyone worried about cost, look at the Flood Re scheme first of all, because this was designed to increase access to affordable flood insurance, whatever your risk levels may be. Get insured, please, before we step into the winter months.

Communities, as Members have said, have got to be at the heart of everything we do. I've seen first hand on many occasions now the destructive power of flooding and the devastation it causes to homes and businesses, and the mental health impacts as well. So, we do believe in working in very close partnership with our communities and with representative organisations to ensure their voices are heard and their needs are met. Let me turn to some of the ways we do this. One of these is community flood plans. Community flood plans have now been drawn up under the ownership and the delivery of community members right across the breadth of Wales. And it empowers them to understand, to prepare for, and to take action against potential flood risks—because we're going to see more of this as the years go by—in their own areas.

And we will also continue to work along with organisations like the National Flood Forum, because they're instrumental in supporting communities after being afflicted by devastating bouts of flooding. And Heledd, I'll refer you to my detailed response in recommendations 12 and 13—I can't go into all the detail now—but also all Members to the reasons why we've rejected 14 and 15 and the explanation accompanying that as well. But can I just say that we have, Heledd, commissioned the National Flood Forum to work with us on developing proposals for a Wales flood forum. The work has already begun and it's due to complete next year.

Natural flood management, as has been mentioned, is another vital component in building resilience against flooding in Wales. We're committed to working with the risk management authorities and with landowners and with farmers to deliver nature-based solutions—and I've seen some of these first-hand—that not only reduce flood risk, but also enhance our natural environment as well. So, this means supporting projects that restore wetlands, plant trees, reconnect rivers with their floodplains, wiggling rivers—re-wiggling rivers as well—actions that slow the flow of water and provide those wider benefits for biodiversity and communities.

And we've made £2 million available for natural flood management projects in 2025-26, and I'm pleased to share with the Senedd that the expression of interest window for the 2026-27 NFM fund is currently open. I'm moving to a close rapidly. Our national strategy, Dirprwy Lywydd—

Very rapidly.

—very rapidly—for flood and coastal erosion risk management sets out a clear direction. We have got to move from reactive flood defence to proactive, long-term resilience planning so that we're embedding catchment-based approaches within the broader land-use frameworks, ensuring that our decisions contribute positively to flood resilience, water quality and community well-being. The sustainable farming scheme also has a part to play in this.

To conclude, I would like to thank everyone who's contributed to our joint response to the recent storms: our risk management authorities, emergency responders, community groups and volunteers too. Together, we are building a more resilient Wales that is better prepared for the challenges of a changing climate. We will continue to listen, to learn and to invest in the solutions that safeguard our communities and our natural environment. Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd.

I call on the Chair of the committee to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you to everyone who has contributed.

I'll just refer to some of the contributions. Janet mentioned the emergency funding, you know, the sufficiency. Well, there's not enough, is there? And, of course, it's inevitable, isn't it, that more extreme weather happening more often means more damage happening more often, meaning the need for more support, but also meaning a need for that definite pivot, which the Deputy First Minister alluded to there, to nature-based solutions. I think that's the only sustainable, long-term answer and best value for money investment, I think, that we can get. And the reference to the Migneint; it's one that I've visited as well and it's a great example, and the Cabinet Secretary mentioned a few others that have been supported as well, and it's more of that kind of thing that we want.

Social fairness was a point that Delyth raised, and we need to empower every community to benefit from the support out there—low-income communities as well as those higher income communities. And we're not just talking about flooding, of course; she reminded us about sinkholes and coal tips and so on. It's a far more complex picture than just where there is flooding.

Mick, I recognise, and the committee has recognised, the level of investment that's gone in, particularly into RCT, but, of course, we still see issues, and that underlines, I think, how this is very much a bottomless pit, potentially. But it requires a mix of both tackling climate change and nipping as much as we can in the bud—you know, stopping the weather getting worse, and, in doing so, hopefully stopping these kinds of incidents becoming worse—and dealing, then, with the consequences through hard infrastructure, soft infrastructure, whole-community answers, street-based answers, but also individual property-level interventions as well.

Heledd, in fairness, has been a big advocate of a Wales flood forum. You've championed this for many years and it's good to hear now that work is ongoing to investigate that possibility. And we all, as a committee, and others in this Chamber, I'm sure, look forward to seeing the outcome of that when it comes next year.

Alun, the challenge is bigger than ever. It's getting worse. Everything we've assumed in the past has to change, and I think that probably describes much of the sentiment that's been expressed here. But I have to say, the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales published a report on this last year, in October, telling us much of what we've been repeating here today. They've asked for a 30-year vision for flood resilience, they've asked for nature as a stakeholder, for better land-use planning, for a stronger community role, for funding and capacity issues.

So, many of the answers have already been highlighted, and I would refer back to a previous report of the committee on the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales: it's time the Government really focused on what they are for. If they are producing these reports, then they should really be driving action from Government. But as the Deputy First Minister said, a lot is happening. Resilience is increasing, but the question is: is that resilience increasing at a rate that meets the increased threat that we're facing from climate change? More is required, and that isn't a criticism, that is a fact. That's the reality of climate change here.

And in concluding, can I thank as well all of those people who respond when these incidents happen—the council staff, staff from Natural Resources Wales, the emergency services, all those who kick into action when most of us are quite oblivious, very often, to these incidents, until we wake up the next morning? Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 6 today is a debate on the Local Government and Housing Committee report, 'The role of local authorities in supporting hospital discharges'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. John Griffiths. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I am pleased to open today's debate on the Local Government and Housing Committee's report on the role of local authorities in supporting hospital discharges. I would like to thank everyone who contributed to our inquiry, particularly those directly impacted by delays.

Our inquiry built on the work undertaken by the Health and Social Care Committee in its inquiry into hospital discharge and the impact on patient flow through hospital. We, of course, focused on the role of local authorities. However, we fully appreciate that delayed discharges are a complex problem and other partners, including housing, the third sector, unpaid carers and independent care providers also play a key role. In fact, collaboration and partnership working are key to improving discharge.

However, we found that there are very different approaches across regions and even neighbouring local authorities when it comes to that vital partnership working. While there are pockets of good practice, there is difficulty in streamlining and rolling out that good practice more widely. We want to see a shift in the approach to hospital discharge, with Welsh Government identifying best practice and requiring local authorities and health boards to adopt it, rather than expecting them, perhaps, to opt in.

There also needs to be a shift towards prevention and early intervention, with more focus on preventing avoidable admissions to hospital. We heard that local authorities have felt forced to reduce spend on early intervention and preventative services due to budgetary pressures. There is clearly a lack of funding for prevention, despite repeated calls for the Welsh Government to introduce, across all its departments, a preventative category of spend. Preventative measures are not currently measured, which in turn does not create a lever for change. Tracking and measuring local authority outputs in relation to prevention could encourage more planning and investment in this area. We are therefore pleased that the Welsh Government has agreed to develop further performance metrics, and to identify and share best practice that will support preventative practices.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the lack of digital information sharing between partners is also a significant barrier to hospital discharge. It is difficult to believe that in 2025 fax machines and paper-based systems are still being used in some places. Patient information is typically held on different IT systems, which are not connected to or viewable by all staff involved in the care and discharge planning. We heard of an effective electronic referral system being used in one area, but that neighbouring local authorities will not accept those referrals.

The lack of standardisation and progress in this area is extremely frustrating. Digital needs to be embedded as a fundamental way of improving hospital discharge. We need stronger leadership as we take these matters forward. And, again, the committee sets out some of the factors involved in achieving that necessary progress. We need more accountability to drive this forward as a matter of urgency.

Improving intermediate or step-down care is another area that requires urgent attention. We heard that the push to free up hospital beds is often driving older people into residential care prematurely, with no focus on rehabilitation and access to therapy. We all know that hospital is not an appropriate environment for people to recover, but neither is a residential home without a focus on recovery. We are therefore very concerned about the practice of routinely discharging older people into care homes. What may initially be seen as a temporary measure often becomes permanent as they lose independence. People shouldn't be removed from acute hospitals into care homes just to free up hospital beds, important though that is. They need appropriate intermediate care with therapeutic and nursing input. We need to focus on patient outcomes, not just patient flow.

We are pleased that Welsh Government accepted our recommendations relating to intermediate care placements. However, its response doesn't suggest that any new action will be taken as a result, or a rapid review of current intermediate care practices, as we suggested. I would therefore be grateful if the Minister could clarify what steps the Welsh Government will take to ensure more recovery-focused intermediate care with therapeutic and nursing input.

The evidence we heard about prematurely writing people off by inappropriately placing them in care homes was alarming, and needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency. There should be a focus on patient needs and outcomes from the outset. We need to include social workers, as well as housing and the third sector, early in the discharge process, not just at the point when a patient is ready to leave hospital. There are some positive examples of multidisciplinary discharge teams, but, unfortunately, these are not replicated across Wales.

Social care services are facing significant challenges, including high levels of staff vacancies, making it difficult to meet demand, which leads to waiting lists and delays. However, there is currently a gap in transparency in terms of the challenges facing social care, because data on delays, waiting times and staff vacancies is not published. We were therefore pleased that the Welsh Government is working towards publishing this data in the spring. We hope that publishing such data will encourage accountability and hopefully, in turn, improve hospital discharge.

Carers, of course, families and unpaid carers, are vital in all of the improvement that we wish to see. Currently, families and unpaid carers have to fill the gaps in care provision due to the lack of social care capacity, but there is a lack of support available for them. Local authorities have statutory duties to ensure that carers are willing and able to provide care and to support those with eligible needs, but we heard that there is a significant implementation gap with the legislation. Without unpaid carers, the cost to the public purse would be immense. It's therefore vital that, as a nation, we recognise their role and needs. As part of this, we need to improve respite care provision across Wales.

I am pleased that there will be a strategic objective in the Welsh Government's new national strategy for unpaid carers, expected in the spring. Our health and care systems are at risk of collapse without unpaid carers. So, we must ensure that they are given all necessary recognition and support.

To see any real change in hospital discharge, we urgently need better partnership working across health and social care, and greater parity between these important sectors. Dirprwy Lywydd, I am pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted all of the recommendations in our report. I therefore sincerely hope that we see progress, because getting hospital discharge right matters. Diolch yn fawr.

Can I begin by thanking the Chair for opening the debate, and the committee for the thorough report, and to recognise the considerable work that has gone into it?

Dirprwy Lywydd, we can all agree that getting hospital discharge right is a vital step in improving our healthcare system. Too many patients remain in hospital long after they're ready to leave, and this bedblocking inevitably places additional pressure on A&E and ambulance services. And, truth be told, it is also deeply frustrating and stressful for those patients who know they are well enough to go home, yet are kept waiting because the bureaucracy can't keep pace with demand.

This report makes clear that while the right policies exist to manage hospital discharges, they're not being applied consistently, and I believe that at the heart of the problem lies the Welsh Government's failure to communicate its policies and objectives simply, clearly and without ambiguity. The lack of effective policy implementation has become endemic in Wales, and I have highlighted this in many areas previously. From my personal perspective, this is an area that must be prioritised.

It's important to note that in the evidence sessions it was pointed out that different interpretations of the same guidance have led to variations across local authorities within a single health board area, and that this creates real challenges for co-ordination and delivery. Thus, there is strong evidence that consistent policy interpretation must be at the forefront of improving services. Whilst I acknowledge the need for local flexibility, I am convinced that tighter control and greater standardisation are required to ensure national consistency in care quality and equality across regions. It is simply not acceptable that people in Wales face a postcode lottery in the care they receive. We must be able to monitor performance and ensure accountability, and this is best achieved through clear national standards that all regions are required to meet. I would also urge the Welsh Government to consider whether targeted financial incentives are a viable way to support health boards and local authorities in reducing delayed discharges.

Addressing the issue of unpaid carers, which is an issue close to my heart, I have many constituents contacting me about the lack of support they receive, and without unpaid carers stepping in to fill the gaps in provision, our entire system would struggle to cope. The report rightly raises concerns that unpaid carers are increasingly carrying this burden because of a lack of capacity within the social care system. It is simply wrong that so many go without proper assessments or the support they deserve.

With both these issues, Dirprwy Lywydd, we see a familiar pattern: the policy exists, but the implementation falls short. The Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 was considered by many as ambitious and well-intentioned, setting out a clear framework to support unpaid carers, yet without consistent delivery, those ambitions have been lost. As with hospital discharge, practice varies widely across health boards and local authorities. This inconsistency is a problem in itself. Again, what is needed is greater standardisation to ensure that every unpaid carer in Wales receives the same level of recognition and support. We should also consider whether unpaid carers should be granted stronger statutory rights and financial support under the Welsh carer framework.

Beyond this inconsistency, lies an even deeper challenge: the persistent lack of reliable data needed to drive real improvement. Without accurate information, neither the Welsh Government nor health boards nor local authorities can identify where problems exist, where they are beginning to emerge or where improvements have been made. Instead, issues only come to light once they have escalated into full-blown crisis. Frankly, given the lack of data in so many areas across all aspects of Government, it often feels like the Welsh Government deliberately avoids gathering detailed information to escape scrutiny. However, the truth is this: you cannot fix what you cannot measure. 

Until we properly record delays, waiting times and staff vacancies, we will never have a full understanding of the system, and we will never make the progress that patients, carers and staff deserve. I therefore fully support recommendation 15 that the Welsh Government should publish data on waiting times for care assessments and services, as well as data on current staff vacancy levels. While I welcome the Government's acceptance of this recommendation, it is the disappointing that such a basic measure is only now being realised. This should have been in place years ago, not introduced at the tail end of a parliamentary term.

Finally, I want to address the pay and conditions parity between NHS and social care staff. I've met with agencies providing care workers who support people in their own homes, and pay remains their greatest concern. The reality is that many care workers can earn more in a local supermarket than in a vital front-line care role. As a result, too few see social care as a long-term career. This creates a serious problem. Staff are trained, often at significant cost, only to leave for better-paid work elsewhere.

It is deeply disappointing to read in the report that according to Care Forum Wales, the real living wage for care staff has now become aspirational as commissioners lack the funds to sustain it. This is particularly disheartening given the Welsh Government's pledge to provide the resources needed to ensure all social care workers received at least the real living wage from April 2022. I know that the Welsh Government has accepted the report's recommendation on this matter, but it's nonetheless troubling that fair pay agreements are not expected to be implemented until at least 2028.

You need to conclude now, please, Joel.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. That is three years away, far too long to wait when the sector is already in crisis. The Welsh Government desperately needs to get a grip on policy implementation, which seems to be at the heart of many of these issues. Thank you.

I want to start by thanking the committee for holding this inquiry. It shows that this Senedd, if not the Government, does consider its duty to consider the well-being of the population as a cross-departmental issue, and that it's not the responsibility of one department or one Minister. It's a thorough report with a number of strong recommendations, so thank you for your work.

There are strong reasons as to why the committee decided to carry out this inquiry, because I'm sure that we all deal with casework where patients can't return home, can't get a care package, or with the health board and the local authority arguing about who should take responsibility for the patient whilst that individual deteriorates and suffers. That's why Plaid Cymru has been arguing so strongly for a national care service for Wales, one that removes that gap between the different authorities, and would ensure that it is the patient that is the priority always.

The report highlights one core element, namely the need for stronger partnerships. Regional partnership boards look different in one part of Wales compared to another, and operate inconsistently across the nation, something that is contrary to the rhetoric of fairness and dignity in care that the Government is so keen to highlight. People question the effectiveness of these boards, and in reality they have good reason for doing so. The lack of political will behind this has led to a nation that is divided with a postcode lottery.

We need a forum for feedback and accountability for these regional partnership boards, as well as greater transparency to show exactly where the system is failing. This is nothing new, of course. A report back in 2020 called for transparency in the activity and expenditure of these boards, five years ago, and here we are five years on, reading the same recommendations. It raises a major question about the Government's willingness to listen to advice or constructive criticism.

Integration has been a pledge from the Government for decades, but when we hear about pilot projects and examples of good practice in certain areas of effective partnership, there is no sign of that being shared or rolled out across the country. We have a significant gap in action here. In its evidence to the inquiry, the Cabinet Secretary said that RPBs should be sharing good practice from one area to another. The wording was that they 'should'. Leadership isn't about good will only, hoping that others agree with you. It relates to making decisions to drive that change. It relates to political will. That's why Plaid Cymru will commit to doing exactly that by incorporating these efforts into legislation and guidance.

Finally, I'd like to highlight recommendations 6 and 7 that talk about digital integration. We must put the person first and the truth is that the people of Wales expect these systems to have been integrated. Local government and health boards should be able to see this need and to proactively find solutions rather than waiting for guidance in doing so. But, in the absence of that, we must have that political leadership in order to ensure that this does happen. Because, as we are in the twenty-first century, it's unforgivable that it's not already happening, and it has a direct impact on the recovery of our loved ones.

Digital connectivity is a tool to improve efficiency, it is not a medicine or a medical intervention, but leadership would lead to better outcomes, if done properly. So, I'm pleased that the Government has accepted these recommendations and I thank the committee once again for its thorough work.

I think it's a useful piece of evidence gathering that forms this report, and I want to focus on one particular area, which is this idea of how we disseminate good practice, because this is an incredibly complex system and we have identified that there are some examples right across the system where good things are happening and are having an effect, but as ever, the diffusion of this innovation is poor.

One of the things we struck on in this report, as we have on the recent report on homelessness, which didn't get the same response from the Government as this has, I'm disappointed to say, is on the idea of where there is good practice, it's simply not good enough to identify it or promote it, tell local authorities or health boards, 'Isn't this great? Why don't you do this?' That doesn't work. What instead we need is an expectation that, where good practice works, it should be hardwired in, it should be the expectation that this is taken up, unless there's a good reason why that wouldn't work locally.

It's what's called the 'adopt or justify' approach. There are three recommendations in this report that hit upon that, and three encouraging responses from the Government. As I say, in local government, the ministerial direction there is, 'We're not going to hardwire this in; we're not going to say adopt or justify; we'll simply let local authorities reach their own conclusion'. I think that's the wrong approach, I think this is a much better approach, but it does touch on the lack of connect between health on the one hand and local government on the other.

I'll just briefly touch on the three recommendations that are relevant. Recommendation 2 says that the Welsh Government should identify best practices for improving hospital discharge, and should require all local authorities and health boards to adopt these practices or justify why not. The response from the Government is to accept, and it sets out in some detail how this is now beginning to happen on the issue of hospital discharge, how it is the expectation that good practice is identified, scaled and adopted, and this will be set out in action plans and reviewed at monthly meetings and driven. It says that where adoption is not possible, regions will be expected to provide a clear rationale. This approach ensures that best practice is not only identified and shared, but actively embedded across Wales with appropriate flexibility to reflect local context. Bravo. We should see more of that. Of course, it's only as good as the implementation, but it is absolutely the right approach.

Similarly, recommendation 4 is that the Welsh Government should review any current joint discharge policies and identify its chosen model for partnership working, and it should then require authorities and health boards to adopt this approach, or justify why not. I hope you're spotting the theme. The Government again accepts the recommendation, explains how its guidance and policy initiatives, like the 50-day winter challenge, do just that, and says that it's now reviewing policies to ensure consistent compliance and adoption, and that regions are going to be expected to act on the findings and demonstrate progress within six months or justify why not. Again, spot on, that's exactly what we should be doing. It'll be down, now, to the implementation.

Recommendation 7 says that the Welsh Government should identify best practice in digital use, such as electronic referrals, and require health boards and hospitals and local authorities to adopt the chosen model or justify why not. And again, the response from the Government is to accept. So far, so good. However, when you read the detail of the response, that's not quite what they are saying in this one.

As John Griffiths rightly pointed out in his speech introducing this debate, the performance on digital is woeful. Digital Health and Care Wales is behind on progress on all of its major programmes, and is in special measures, and is in complete denial. This response, I'm afraid, doesn't give me much encouragement that the positive tone in the previous responses to the recommendations that I have just set out is being replicated here, even though the Government has accepted the recommendations.

It says that, while the Welsh Government has promoted the adoption of national digital standards, mandating specific tools remains complex. It simply points to best practice sharing. It says that the Welsh Government continues to work with health boards and local authorities to encourage adoption of these tools, where appropriate—weasel words—while recognising the importance of local flexibility and the need to avoid placing unfunded burdens on partners.

The Kremlinologist in me decodes that as, 'We are not going to do anything different from what we are currently doing. So, we are not going to adopt or justify'. So, I don't know why the Government has accepted that recommendation. There is clearly, yet again, a problem in the way that the digital delivery system is being scaled up and is being mainstreamed. There is a major problem here. We have seen it time and time again, and we know that, in the Connecting Care project in particular, the red on the dashboard is flashing.

I would like to commend the Government on the 'adopt or justify' approach that it has taken on two of our recommendations. I wish that the local government policy area took a similar view. I'm alarmed at the disconnect between the two. But I want to highlight the ongoing worry about the failure to do this in the area of digital. Diolch.     

Diolch to the committee for bringing this report forward and for the work that went into it. We're all aware of the crisis facing our health service in Wales and the key role that local authorities play in supporting the sector. It is evident that work needs to be done across local authorities and health boards to ensure that best practice is adopted in improving hospital discharges to ease pressure on our hospitals, as recommended in the committee's report. As we heard from Lee Waters, 'adopt and justify' is a way of ensuring that best practice is adopted, and I'd like to hear from the Government what their reaction is to that and how they are going to take that forward in all aspects.

When it comes to regional partnership boards, we heard from the Minister for Children and Social Care last week that the Government consulted on extending the corporate legal responsibilities of the RPBs, but that partners in both local government and health boards rejected those proposals. Improved collaboration between these authorities is key, from discharge to intermediate care. As Professor Bolton makes clear in the report, by getting domiciliary care—mostly run by local authorities—right, with a therapy-led service, outcomes can drastically improve. He goes on to highlight that intermediate care is best done when people collaborate, and that health boards need to work with the local authorities.

Getting this right will help ameliorate the cycle of people going straight back into hospital after being discharged, ensuring that the healthy remain healthy. It's evident that collaboration is key. Local authorities and health boards must work together to share and adopt best practice, supporting both of their operations, easing pressure and leading to better health outcomes. The question for the Government is what work are they doing to ensure that this co-operation is happening and that regional partnership boards are working to their full potential. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Minister for Children and Social Care—Dawn Bowden.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I say at the outset that I very much welcome the report of the Local Government and Housing Committee and appreciate its findings? I think that safeguarding and patient flow and supporting recovery is not just a system challenge; it's about supporting better outcomes for people, families and communities. I'm really pleased, actually, that we've had the opportunity to explore this in a number of debates and statements over the last couple of weeks. This report shines a further light on what matters most: ensuring that when someone leaves hospital, they do so with dignity, safety and the right support. So, we welcome the report and its findings, and I thank the committee very much for its thorough work.

Local authorities are at the heart of our communities. They provide vital support, not only for those who are the most vulnerable, but also for people who need a helping hand to regain independence. Whether that's enabling someone to return home safely after hospital, or offering practical support in the community to help promote independence, their role is essential in keeping people well and connected.

The committee's report set out 18 recommendations, and we have accepted all of them. We will be undertaking the necessary steps to respond and to deliver on these. However, it is important to note that we have already progressed activity across several of those recommendations.

The report highlights important themes of partnership working and discharge practices and the need to address variations and standardised integrated approaches. Through the important work led by the care action committee, and the regional leadership provided by the regional partnership boards, which we have strengthened by recent legislative changes to Part 9 of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, we've seen powerful collaboration growing between health and social care delivery partners. As the Welsh Government, we remain committed to working with our partners, promoting and enabling a culture of partnership working and collaboration. 

I've provided a detailed response to the committee on all the recommendations, but I am pleased that we have already taken forward actions that align closely with the themes and recommendations of this report, and I'm going to set out a few of those areas this afternoon: co-producing our vision for an integrated community care system for Wales and embedding new national and regional governance arrangements to provide cross-sector leadership and direction to support delivery and integration; a programme to embed best practice to discharge, recover then assess, and the trusted assessor model; continued engagement with our regional partnership boards to strengthen joint working and integrated approaches that help build community capacity. This includes £87 million funding to support this work during 2024-25, and we are embedding good practice and learning from last winter's 50-day challenge, providing targeted initiatives to improve patient flow and discharge planning across health and social care. Lee Waters presented a fair challenge. We have made very clear that these best practice areas must happen, and we are holding regions to account for delivering this. Over the next few weeks, I will be meeting all of our partners in those regions to embed that further in the discussions that we will have with them taking this work forward.

The report rightly highlights that better information sharing is essential to improving the system. This is a cornerstone of efficient and effective delivery, and while we've been collecting data for some considerable time, I'm pleased to confirm that, since August, the pathways of care delays data has been published on the StatsWales website alongside the monthly data. We recognise that improved data handling and sharing will be key to driving improvements, and we're looking into actions around progressing the Connecting Care programme and the digital social care framework, which will support the integration, availability and sharing of information between partners to allow for more open and transparent discussions to tackle the challenges in our system, which Lee Waters quite rightly highlighted.

Helping people recover safely at home and protecting vulnerable individuals can, of course, reduce hospital admissions, improve patient flow and reduce demand for longer term care packages. To support this, we have invested £5 million annually in health boards to expand allied health professional capacity and enhance preventative services. This year, we've also introduced a further investment of £30 million for local authorities to boost those services that support hospital discharge, as well as those community services that support individuals to remain healthy at home. This funding will help underpin delivery against those committee recommendations that seek to further expand our professional capacity and improve patient flow.

We also have in place our 'Looking Forward Together' framework, which sets out the actions that we need to realise the full value of allied health professionals within our communities, as well as their positive impacts on patient flow. We will undertake a rapid review of intermediate care practices to understand and develop best practice frameworks. Alongside this, we will drive improvements, through enhanced community care programmes and the use of deconditioning toolkits, which will strengthen our reablement and prevention efforts.

The report also highlights challenges around workforce and social care capacity, which have been areas of great importance for us. The findings and recommendations reflected back to us through the report further emphasise the need to ensure that we're working to develop and grow our workforce to meet the rising needs. Our commitment to the real living wage and support for the fair pay agreement helps to address pay parity and improve recruitment and retention. And contrary to the comments represented this afternoon by Joel James, 84 per cent of our social care workforce are receiving the real living wage. I think that is slightly more than just ‘aspirational’.

With strengthened decision making we plan to expand data publication on assessments, waiting times and vacancies for better sector oversight. The report rightly draws attention to the wider functions of local government, including housing. Housing services are vital to ensuring that we can support people to live well at home, including recovery after time in hospital. And we want to strengthen the role that housing plays within the work of our regional partnership boards, and maximise the investment being made through initiatives such as the £60.5 million housing-with-care fund to support independent living and to help people leave hospital and move into safe environments that aid recovery. We will review and strengthen discharge planning links between hospital teams and housing partners, improving connections with strategic hospital-to-home services, which will be another key action that we've taken from this report.

The scope of recommendations from this inquiry touches on a wide range of areas, and we will review and act on these accordingly. As outlined, it’s encouraging that we have already begun work in several areas that aligned with the committee's findings, but we know that there is more to do. So, we thank the committee again for its work and its constructive recommendations. Together we can make sure that leaving hospital is not the end of care, but the start of recovery, independence and a healthier Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Chair of the committee to reply to the debate—John Griffiths. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Let me begin by thanking Members who contributed to the debate today. This is an area that's had a lot of concern, isn't it—delayed discharges from hospital—for very good reason, because it's so important to that flow through hospitals that allow people to have timely care when they attend at accident and emergency departments, and allow ambulance response times to be shorter, because ambulances are not tied up at hospitals waiting to discharge patients if that flow through hospitals is improved. So, it's had a great deal of concentration over a number of years, and various Members have referred to that, including the Minister. But I think it's absolutely right that, in terms of the Local Government and Housing Committee, we look at what we can bring to the table in terms of the further improvement that's needed and further focus that's needed.

It was really good to see, I think, a great deal of agreement in the debate today and in our committee report, and recommendations on ways forward. I think that Joel James was absolutely right to emphasise the importance of pay and conditions, and the value of the role of the social care workforce, and the importance of ensuring that as many as possible receive that real living wage. Then it was very good to hear the Minister's response that 84 per cent of the social care workforce are receiving just that, and obviously we need to make sure that even more receive it as we move forward.

I was very grateful for Mabon's contribution, talking about the cross-departmental imperatives in addressing this agenda and how the committee has been part of ensuring that, in the scrutiny that the Senedd exercises, we do take that cross-departmental approach. It is absolutely important that we make these connections, both in scrutiny and in ministerial action, and I’m very grateful for Mabon putting that on the table here in our debate today, and also talking about the importance of data and digital connectivity. And then Lee, I think very fairly, recognised the value of the Welsh Government's responses to our requests for the adoption or justification approach to identified good practice—Lee recognising the value of the responses from Welsh Government, but then pointing out that in terms of the digital agenda, we also need to carry through that approach there, because that also is a vital part of the necessary improvement that we need to see.

I'm very grateful for the Minister's response and the acceptance of the 18 recommendations—it's really good to see—and the welcome for our report, again recognising that it builds on work that's already been done, but has that necessary focus on the local government element. And setting out the funding that's being provided to try and ensure that that intermediate care issue that we've identified—the need for proper therapeutic and nursing input to be factored in will be taken forward through that increased funding, and also that tool to recognise the importance of deconditioning and to guard against it. So, I'm very grateful for all of that.

I just think, in conclusion, as we so often say, it's really good to see the approach that the Welsh Government has taken, the Minister has taken, in responding to the report, but now, as ever, the acid test being whether we see the implementation and the progress that needs to follow on from that. So, as ever, the committee will be taking an ongoing interest to try and ensure that we do see the improvement, the progress, the quality right across Wales, and consistency right across Wales, that this report identifies as vital. Diolch yn fawr. 

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 7 today is the Welsh Conservatives' debate: remembrance and the armed forces community. I call on James Evans to move the motion.

Diolch. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the motion tabled in the name of my colleague Paul Davies. This motion today sets out a clear, credible and compassionate plan to honour our commitment to the armed forces here in Wales. Over the past few days, like other Senedd Members, I attended moving remembrance services right the way across my constituency, and like so many others, I was very touched by all the parts of our communities coming together to pay their respects.

The period of remembrance is always a solemn and powerful time, and it reminds us of the immense courage, sacrifice and selflessness of those who served, not just from here in the United Kingdom, but from all over the empire at the time, to defend our freedoms and the values that all of us share today. But remembrance must never just be about looking back. It must be about looking after those who have served, and those who still serve today. It must be about renewing our promise to provide care and support throughout the year, not just in November, and too often that promise is not being fulfilled.

Our motion begins, as it should, with recognition—recognition of the enduring importance of remembrance to families and communities across Wales. We remember and honour all those who lost their lives, and those who continue to bear the scars, both seen and unseen, of the service to our country. We also pay tribute to the many organisations, volunteers and individuals who work tirelessly to support our armed forces community. Their compassion and dedication fill the gaps that statutory services often leave behind or cannot fill, and they deserve our deepest thanks.

We recognise, of course, the significant and continuing contribution that the military makes to Wales, not just through its global service, but through the economic and social value of our bases and the vital role of our reservists and veterans in our communities across the country.

However, Deputy Presiding Officer, gratitude must not remain just words on a page, or gestures on a single day. The heart of this motion, and the focus of our efforts on these benches to fix Wales, lies in action. It is simply unacceptable that veterans who have given so much are still struggling to access housing, healthcare and mental health support. No-one who has worn our nation's uniform should ever be left behind, let alone left sleeping on the streets.

That is why our motion calls for five clear, practical steps, actions that this Welsh Government could take right now to make a real difference. First, we call for an end to veterans' homelessness. It is a national disgrace that men and women who wore the country's uniform, who stood ready to risk everything for our freedoms and protections, are sleeping rough or are stuck in insecure accommodation. So, we are calling on the Welsh Government to go further, to require every local authority and social landlord to give homeless veterans the highest priority for housing. That is not a radical demand; it is simple decency. If, in Wales, we can find emergency accommodation and support for others, then surely we can guarantee a roof for someone who has served under our flag. Providing a home for a veteran should be a matter of principle, not paperwork, and we should put that principle into practice now.

Secondly, we call for greater support for our service children. These young people face unique challenges: moving school repeatedly as parents are posted, coping with long absences as parents are away, and carrying worries that most children will never have to shoulder in Wales. The Government's own programme reports that over 2,000 service children are currently supported, backed by £270,000 of funding. We know that service families live in all our 22 local authorities, with census data identifying at least 2,486 children in armed forces households. That tells us that need is real, widespread and measurable. So, we should strengthen engagement with Supporting Service Children in Education Cymru's armed forces friendly schools framework, so that every school right the way across Wales knows who its service children are and how best to support them through their challenges.

Thirdly, we must invest properly in Veterans' NHS Wales. This service has been a Welsh Government-funded programme since 2010, expanded from a successful programme in south Wales, with additional recurrent funding from 2018 to increase capacity. It does vital work in providing assessments and National Institute for Health and Care Excellence approved therapy. But across Wales it is stretched, and some local health boards do not have the officers in place. We should be guaranteeing a permanent peer mentor in every health board, because peer support works, because veterans do trust veterans.

And fourth, we should extend free bus travel to all veterans all year round. Right now, free travel is offered by Transport for Wales and TrawsCymru on remembrance dates—a welcome gesture, but only on a few days each year. Making it permanent would fight isolation, improve access to work, health and community services, and it shows practical respect every day, not just in November. Wales has already consulted on ensuring concessionary bus travel for injured service veterans. The next step simply would be for a national scheme for all our veterans.

And finally, we should create that national military museum for Wales, which I would of course like to see in Brecon and Radnorshire. Our nation's military history is rich, it's distinguished, yet there is no single national museum to tell it. Evidence heard in all the Senedd committees has noted that many important pieces aren't on public display, because there simply is no place to display them. A national museum would honour service, preserve heritage and educate our future generations—a permanent place for families and schools, and our visitors to Wales, to learn, reflect and remember together.

Now, Deputy Presiding Officer, I want to turn to the amendments tabled by Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Government, especially Plaid Cymru's amendment, which seeks to delete our entire motion and replace it with vague platitudes or political point scoring.

Let me start with the amendment from Plaid Cymru. Frankly, I find it nothing short of insulting to our armed forces personnel across Wales. The amendment begins not with action, not with gratitude, but an attempt to score political points, referring to the work of Plaid Cymru MPs in supporting the armed forces covenant, forgetting all the other MPs, Senedd Members and councillors from all across Wales, from all political parties, who have worked very, very hard to ensure that councils, the Senedd and the Welsh Government have all signed the armed forces covenant. I think it's an absolute disgrace.

And let me be clear to Plaid Cymru, who obviously couldn't be seen to bother—I know Lindsay's here, but the rest couldn't come—who have stood up for our armed forces. It's not just Plaid Cymru. The armed forces covenant itself was enshrined in law by a UK Conservative Government. That was brought in under David Cameron, and that made sure that we enshrined a duty to treat veterans and their families fairly, with respect, in society. And I think that's something that every Member in this Chamber should recognise and be very proud to uphold.

But, to me, the most unacceptable part of Plaid Cymru's amendment is that it seeks to delete a section of our motion that recognises the significant ongoing contribution that the military makes to Wales. How disrespectful is that? To strike out recognition of the vital role that our service personnel play in our economy, in our communities and in our country's life is deeply, deeply offensive. To all those who serve and have served, we tell you—and I'm sure other parties will as well—that we stand with you and we recognise your ongoing contribution to Wales, even if the Plaid Cymru separatists cannot.

And I say that our motion stands proudly with our veterans and our service personnel, and especially with their families. It sets out clear, concrete, achievable steps that the Welsh Government could put in to deliver real change. [Interruption.] I will take an intervention, yes.

Thank you to the Member for—. I can't see you past the pillar, but thank you very much.

That's probably a good thing.

Thank you to the Member for taking the intervention. I just wanted to say that I concur with everything that you've said so far and I want to thank the Welsh Conservatives for bringing forward this important debate today.

I know we had a debate yesterday, and, in that speech that I made, I said about the importance—and agreed with other Members that spoke of the same—of looking after our veterans' mental health. So, on that specific point, do you agree with me that, as I said to the Cabinet Secretary yesterday, in NHS Wales, there needs to be specific help for female veterans, who have specific needs that differ from those who are male? There was some talk from the Government that they would be supportive of that, but, unfortunately, they've said there's no money to go ahead with that now. But, as the Cabinet Secretary raised it yesterday, don't you agree with me that that, hopefully, will be agreed?

Well, my overriding principle is that mental health support should be provided to everybody, whether that's males or females. No-one should be denied support. And I can reaffirm my party's commitment that the NHS will always remain free and people can have access to free mental health support, and I hope that you might do the same if you're making a contribution later.

But I will say, Deputy Presiding Officer—I know I'm taking up a lot of time from the person who's closing this debate—let us remember that remembrance cannot be confined to one weekend. It must live in our policies, in our budgets and in our priorities every single day of the year. We owe our veterans and their families a debt that can never truly be repaid, but we should do as much as we can to honour what they have done for our country.

The Welsh Conservatives motion before us turns remembrance from a moment into a movement—a year-round commitment to those who have served and sacrificed for us all. I urge Members to reject all other amendments today and support the Welsh Conservatives motion to make sure that we can actually start now to support our serving personnel and their families right the way across Wales.

I have selected the amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on Peredur Owen Griffiths to move amendment 1, in the name of Heledd Fychan.

I move the amendment. Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd.

I welcome the chance to contribute in this debate during this period of remembrance. It's right that we honour the Welsh men and women who have served our nation with dedication and courage.

On 23 November 1918, just days after the end of the great war, David Lloyd George promised to build a land fit for heroes. More than a century later, that promise remains unfulfilled. Too many veterans still face poverty, homelessness and poor mental and physical health—a damning indictment of successive UK Governments.

The independent review of UK Government welfare services for veterans could not have been clearer: funding cuts have hollowed out support. The Trussell Trust reports that over a quarter of veterans now struggle to afford food. Pension entitlement is another failure. Age Cymru estimates that one in five Welsh veterans could be eligible for an armed forces pension but are not claiming it, often due to confusion or complexity. Veterans should receive what they are owed automatically and not be left to navigate a bureaucratic maze.

We can also make the system kinder and simpler. My Westminster colleague Ben Lake has long argued that veterans should be exempt from repeated disability assessments, an ordeal that worsens anxiety and forces people through a benefits system already stacked against them. That is where welfare reform should begin, not by cutting lifelines, as the UK Government attempted last year.

The Welsh Government too can do more. At a recent Welsh Affairs Committee hearing, the Veterans' Commissioner for Wales, Colonel James Phillips, highlighted how peer mentoring transforms veterans' mental health, yet the provision of such support remains patchy. We need a consistent, 'once for Wales' approach, not just in principle, but in practice. In that spirit, I ask the Cabinet Secretary to update us on the work of the armed forces expert group, whose minutes seemingly have not been published since September 2023. I'm also keen to hear about how the Government is advancing the armed forces covenant, a measure my party helped bring to life.

But the hardship faced by so many in our armed forces communities points to a deeper truth: the need to end war and build lasting peace. Despite the lessons of history, humanity's appetite for conflict remains undiminished. The appalling Hamas attacks of 7 October were followed by Israel's devastating campaign of bombardment and starvation in Gaza, now recognised by the United Nations as a genocide. The so-called ceasefire has brought little relief, with civilians still being killed daily. In Sudan, Western complacency has enabled Gulf-backed militias to commit fresh atrocities in Darfur—another genocide added to this century's grim list. And in Ukraine, Putin's unprovoked war grinds into a fourth year, emboldened by the shameful apologism of right-wing populists across Europe. Disturbingly, that same rhetoric has crept into Wales, fuelling smears against the nation of sanctuary programme, a scheme whose purpose is to help victims of Putin's war.

Whilst political opportunists may turn their backs on Ukraine, Plaid Cymru, and, as we saw in Caerphilly, the people of Wales, will not. We will stand with Ukraine as long as it takes. As we mark another year of remembrance, we must honour not only those who served, but also Wales's proud tradition of standing with the oppressed and the victims of war. Our duty is to ensure that the land fit for heroes finally becomes a reality, and to remember that the only true antidote to the poison of war is peace. Diolch.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales to move amendment 2 formally, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Moved formally.

In an interview last week, the Reverend Clive Foster, the Windrush commissioner, spoke about the Windrush scandal survivors, who he has met since he took office 100 days ago. He said that the people he met were proud of being British, and that he was humbled to see black veterans coming out wearing their medals in Wales. He said:

'We don't want to be defined by a scandal. That's why the gentleman comes out in his medals, proudly and says, "look, this is the contribution that I have made."'

I know that the Cabinet Secretary met with the Windrush commissioner when he came down to Wales, and I met him as well. We've been talking in this debate about how we will look after and support our veterans, and the message, really, I think, is that it is our duty to look after people who have done so much for us by not making them feel uncertain about their position in this country. I think we have to remember that the Windrush generation came to this country legally, were asked to come, and have served this country. So, creating an atmosphere such as threatening to end the indefinite leave to remain, saying immigrants should go back, threatening the nation of sanctuary, is causing huge uncertainty and despair amongst the Windrush generation. I just think that those are as important as all the other things that we've said today in the way that we should support veterans, that we must make people feel safe in this country. Coming together in remembrance is an opportunity for communities to unite and to remember the different communities that have contributed over many, many years. It's not to glorify war, but to recognise the contributions and to work for peace. And I see this time of remembrance as what we should do.

Also, I think it's important to remember the wider consequences of war and the displacement of so many people. Peredur has referred to Gaza, which immediately comes to mind, thinking of those long trails of people being displaced, and then going back to rubble, and I think we have to remember the consequences of war are so wide.

I was very pleased to attend the launch of the exhibition in the Senedd yesterday, sponsored by the Llywydd, which is an exhibition by the Centre for the Movement of People at Aberystwyth University. We heard some very powerful testimonies, including by two women from Ukraine. And as part of the exhibition, there are photographs relating to the Royal Indian Army Service Corps in Wales. And this is a heritage research project delivered by KIRAN Cymru, supported by the British army, the National Library of Wales and the Glamorgan Archives, and funded by the Welsh Government. And the Indian army provided over 2.5 million soldiers to fight alongside the Allies during the second world war. And the exhibition shows photos of the Royal Indian Army Service Corps' animal transport company, which transported 2,700 mules from Mumbai to Marseille.

The fall of France in May 1940 meant that the company had to be evacuated to Britain and was stationed in Wales, and others were deployed and fought for Britain in areas across the globe. There are calls for a memorial to the Indians who served in this country, and there's a call from the Indian community, locally, that there should be something to recognise them. Of course, there is, I think, as the Cabinet Secretary did highlight yesterday, the plaque at the national war memorial in Cardiff, which honours the contributions made by the diverse ethnic and Commonwealth women and men who've served our country from 1914 to date, and I know the Cabinet Secretary was instrumental in helping that to be established there.

So, I really just want to end by saying that the words we use as politicians, the atmosphere we create, are so crucially important. And I think that those are the things we should think about when we respect all those people who did so much to keep us safe in so many different ways. Diolch.

I'm really honoured to contribute to today's debate, especially in the year when we commemorate the eightieth anniversaries of VE and VJ Day. It's so important that we continue to remember and honour the sacrifices our forebears made for the freedom of our country, as well as the freedom His Majesty's armed forces services continue to protect all across the world.

I am hugely proud that it was a Conservative UK Government that introduced the armed forces covenant, and we must continue to respect the commitments made in that covenant right here in Wales. In my region of south-east Wales, we have nearly 23,500 veterans of both the armed forces and reservists, and I'm proud of the service each and every single one of them has given to our country. And I really wish that, in today's debate, Plaid Cymru had acknowledged that as well.

However, we are still seeing many challenges ahead for them because of a lack of consistent policy delivery, including difficulties, as my colleague James Evans mentioned, in housing, support for their health, as well as many other areas. Deputy Presiding Officer, according to the Royal British Legion, serving members and their families are not getting the support that they so desperately need from Welsh public services, including dentistry and access to education. It's also really disappointing that we are still seeing Welsh veterans without the support they need to adjust to civvy street, nor are we utilising the many skills that they can indeed offer us.

Close to my heart is very much the need for us to focus on lifelong learning for veterans, which will help to change their careers and also enable us to harness their skills. They are hugely valuable members of society, and we must never forget that. However, sadly, Deputy Presiding Officer, we're seeing a lacklustre approach to lifelong learning by the Welsh Government, which would support many veterans who have come out of service for our country. Deputy Presiding Officer, according to CollegesWales, we are seeing a drop in lifelong learning participation in Wales, primarily because of a large cut in funding by the Welsh Government from 2013. This 37.5 per cent cut in 2013, coupled with a 33 per cent cut in part-time education, means that the adult community learning sector is still playing catch-up in order to bring people back into education.

Deputy Presiding Officer, these pressures are not limited to lifelong learning. In our further education sector, where many of these vital courses are delivered, they are feeling the pinch due to record increases in learners and inflationary costs in terms of course delivery, as noted by CollegesWales. On top of this, we have the UK Labour Government's ill-thought-out increase in employer national insurance contributions, which has hit our education sectors hard. Veterans are also really missing out on a wide range of degree apprenticeships, available over the border, which would enable them to earn as they learn. We only have a very limited set of options for degree apprenticeships here in Wales. Therefore, Deputy Presiding Officer, I believe that we're missing out on some key skills that veterans can bring to the table. We do not ensure that they can be part of key jobs such as teaching. These skills are being left unused and sadly forgotten. The brilliant Troops to Teachers scheme in England, while underused, is an example of where Wales can also thank veterans for their service by ensuring they have meaningful employment after they leave the armed forces. We often say in remembrance, 'Gone, but not forgotten.' But, Deputy Presiding Officer, this is exactly what we are doing with our ex-service personnel.

It deeply distressed me last week to hear a veteran of world war two, Alec Penstone, say on Good Morning Britain that he felt winning a war was not worth how the country is today. And, Deputy Presiding Officer, when I see Reform standing up and praising the armed forces, when Reform-led Lancashire council are consulting on closing down care homes, it leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth. For a party that screams 'patriotism' from the rooftops, it is disgraceful to see that their patriotism ends when it comes to looking after the elderly. Our veterans across the UK deserve better than this.

Finally, Deputy Presiding Officer, I, on behalf of my entire group, want to say a huge 'thank you' to the veterans and armed forces personnel across the country and abroad who have made so many sacrifices for our freedom. Lest we forget. Thank you.

I am the only Welsh politician to have visited our troops in Afghanistan, and we came under attack in one convoy—it was pretty hair raising, I may add—and following the five-day tour, prior to the flight home, the troops were made to watch a video about stress and the reality of the hardships they were likely to face on their return. It was about 15 minutes long—500 men and women packed into a very large hangar. If a 15-minute video is meant to mean rehabilitation, then it's simply not good enough. Even before they had boarded the plane, they were being told to expect the worst. It typifies, as Peredur has already alluded to, the failure of society to provide the necessary security and support for those who have bravely served our nation.

This weekend, we have all bowed our heads down in respect for the fallen, but we should also hold our heads down in shame for the many thousands—or, well, hundreds, certainly—of men and women who tragically fall through the net after completing their service. And we owe them a little bit more. We must do much better than we have done. The Ministry of Defence are the people I want to attack, not any political party. They need to increase their portion of their budget to ensure that no military personnel are sleeping on our streets. It's to the shame of everyone in this country that we still see that. It doesn't necessarily have to be a case of moving heaven and earth. There are relatively straightforward, practical steps that could make a huge difference in making our public services more receptive to the particular circumstances of the military personnel. I hear people say, 'Oh, they've got free swimming.' Well, that's fine, but if you have nowhere to live, free swimming and free bus and train transport are absolutely futile. We know that the life of military households can be nomadic, with all of the upheaval that that entails, so the very least we can do is to minimise this disruption through a guarantee of consistency in the provision of services, regardless of where they are based.

A constituent of mine—I have his permission to say his name—Geraint Evans from Caerphilly, served seven years in the armed forces, and he has highlighted to me a particular issue with dentistry. By coincidence, another person, a gentleman from Bargoed, has today contacted me with the same issue. I do not have his permission to mention his name, because it was only this morning and he hasn't replied yet to my e-mail. But accessing dental services, a simple thing like that through the NHS, is becoming a scarce luxury in Wales in general. But there are added complications for military personnel, due to their periodical relocation. Geraint has mentioned to me that despite being registered as an NHS dental patient before entering the service, he's lost his access now upon being discharged and he's been told to expect a waiting list of several years to re-enter the system. Regrettably, he is far from unique in this respect. The person from Bargoed has actually paid to have dental treatment for his daughter and himself.

Now, that runs completely contrary to the spirit of the principles of the armed forces covenant that we all worked so hard—every party here in Wales—to introduce. So, I would be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could mention in his response whether the Welsh Government has considered introducing a service pause policy for NHS dental registration, so that veterans and their families don't lose access simply because of a change of address.

It was mentioned by the mover of the motion—I understand it's the American troops' motto as well—'no-one should be left behind'. Well, they are words that all Governments and certainly Westminster, the Welsh Government and the Ministry of Defence could do well to remember when it comes to dealing with the needs of our community of veterans. I would like to think that we are all united; despite the attacks earlier, I think we are all united in supporting the veterans of this country. I really believe that. Thank you for listening, thank you.

It gives me great pleasure to take part in today's debate on remembrance and supporting the armed forces community. My own constituency is home to Cawdor barracks—or Brawdy, as it's also known—the Pembrokeshire home of the 14th Signal Regiment. The soldiers and their families at those barracks are a valued part of the local community, and we in Pembrokeshire are very proud of their presence.

Our motion acknowledges the tireless work of organisations, individuals and volunteers who support Wales's armed forces community and veterans. Pembrokeshire is no exception; there are some excellent organisations working with veterans and the armed forces community across the county. The Cabinet Secretary may be aware of the excellent VC Gallery in Haverfordwest, run by Barry John, who was a serving member of the Royal Welsh Regiment for 24 years. The VC Gallery—'VC' meaning veterans and community—is a wonderful example of a small independent charity bringing together veterans and the community through art, as well as helping veterans who are struggling to adapt to civilian life.

I've been to the VC Gallery on several occasions and I'm always blown away by the incredible community spirit and commitment from the volunteers there. They run a series of amazing projects, including peer mentorships, who offer dedicated guidance and assistance to veterans and their families. In my view, delivering peer-led support is a great way of developing trust and creating a safe and welcoming environment for veterans to reconnect with their community and rediscover a sense of belonging. The VC Gallery also runs a garden-to-plate project, which connects people with the greater outdoors and teaches them valuable gardening and cooking skills. This is another project that fosters active citizenship and promotes healthy living, and I believe it's this kind of activity that the Welsh Government needs to identify, support and roll out across Wales. Where good work is being done in our communities, we have to promote it and share best practice across the country.

Our motion rightly calls on the Welsh Government to better support the armed forces community in a number of ways, including promoting engagement in the armed forces friendly schools programme to support service children, and I believe there's more that can be done to support service children in Welsh schools. Here in Wales, as mentioned earlier, funding for armed forces pupils is administered through Supporting Service Children in Education Cymru, and schools bid for funding rather than receiving direct financial support per pupil. Service pupils are of course entitled to support via the pupil development grant, provided they meet the eligibility criteria, but this does not compensate for the disparity in direct funding, because due to the financial situation of service personnel, service children are unlikely to qualify for free school meals or pupil development grant support. Therefore, because of the different ways of administering support, I know there are some concerns that schools receive less funding per service pupil than schools in England, and that of course limits the interventions and support available to these children. Therefore, I believe the Welsh Government should consider increasing the funding for SSCE Cymru to match the per-pupil rate provided in England, and commit to looking at this issue further with a view to reviewing the current funding set-up.

Now, of course, it would be remiss of me to speak in this debate without mentioning the campaign to protect war memorials in Wales. We come together in front of war memorials in our communities every year to pay tribute to our brave servicemen and servicewomen and I believe that more priority should be given to how war memorials are protected here in Wales. I've advocated for conservation custodians or war memorial officers, which could be incorporated into the responsibilities of existing local authority officers, and their role would serve as a point of contact for the public on any war memorial-related matters. They could also develop partnerships with local community groups and organisations that have already established responsibility for some memorials in the area. And they could also forge links with local schools to educate children and young people about the importance of war memorials and to tell the stories of the great sacrifices made for us. Therefore, I hope the Cabinet Secretary will genuinely commit to looking at this proposal further and whether there is scope for this sort of role to be created.

So, in closing, Deputy Presiding Officer, our armed forces do an incredible job protecting us, and it's only right that we honour all those who have lost their lives and have made sacrifices in the service of our country. We also need to promote local community activities and partnerships and we need to ensure that service children in Wales are funded at the same level as elsewhere across the UK. I urge Members to support our motion.

I want to thank the Welsh Conservatives for tabling this really important debate today. This year, with the commemoration of the VE Day and VJ Day eightieth anniversary, it really has been moving to see people across all generations join together to reflect on sacrifices past and present. As the daughter of a veteran of the second world war, it is a poignant reminder that this day remains personal and hugely important to many of us.

The UK and Welsh Governments are committed to supporting veterans in Wales. The First Minister yesterday highlighted some of the ways that our Labour Governments are delivering for veterans in mid and west Wales, with funding going to places like Woody's Lodge in Ceredigion,  the VC Gallery that Paul Davies mentioned in Haverfordwest, and Adferiad in Llandrindod Wells.

Could I also give a special mention to Military Veterans Club Cymru's breakfast club? Based in the Amman valley with members across Wales, it runs every Monday, putting on activities like bowling and shooting. It has become a hugely successful and popular event, with attendees numbering into the hundreds. Last month, I was honoured to attend a session. It was wonderful to see the work that the club is doing to promote health and well-being, to reduce loneliness and to bolster a sense of camaraderie for military veterans and their families, and also the intergenerational respect that was present by Ysgol y Bedol's fantastic school choir. It was quite interesting sitting next to a veteran who told me that their grandchild was one of those people on the stage singing, so it really does build up that intergenerational respect, and, more importantly, understanding and education about peace and the dignity bestowed upon those older people by the younger people and vice versa.

I was at a poppy stall in Haverfordwest—I'm sure most of us were at poppy stalls last week—and I was chatting to a veteran and they were particularly interested in the breakfast club, and maybe we could roll that out a little bit more widely. I know there's one in Llanelli and there are ones elsewhere. It is really an opportunity to thank everyone involved in all those organising and supporting schemes that take place right across the country. All they ask for is to see that people are enjoying themselves, that people are involved, that people aren't at home being lonely. I've met quite a few people who've told me that that would be their story if it was not for these organisations. Those organisations are a real embodiment of the armed forces covenant—the moral obligations between the nation and the members of the naval services, the army, the Royal Air Force and their families.

The Welsh Government does this through programmes like Veterans' NHS Wales, funding for which has risen by more than 35 per cent. Every local authority now employs armed forces liaison officers, ensuring that veterans can access housing, education and healthcare without barriers, and has appointed armed forces champions to represent their interests locally. Veterans who have health conditions linked to their service receive priority access to NHS Wales care, while the national housing pathway for veterans helps ex-services personnel find and obtain secure homes, including tailored advice for those at risk of homelessness. We know, from today, that some of those things need further nurturing and improvement.

We do have schemes that do matter to people: the free swimming and the defence privilege card, which promotes well-being and recognition of their service, their sacrifice and their contributions to our way of life. We must never, ever underestimate the importance of that well-being. Thank you. 

It's a real honour to speak in this debate tonight, in this week of remembrance, as we reflect on the immense debt of gratitude that we owe to those who have served, and those who made the ultimate sacrifice for the freedoms that we hold today. 

On Sunday, I had the privilege of attending the remembrance service at St Thomas's Church in Rhyl, followed by the parade along to the memorial gardens on the promenade, where a two-minute silence was observed and wreaths were laid. It was a truly special and moving service, as it always is—one that brought together people of all ages and backgrounds, united in silent reflection and remembrance.

In towns and villages across Wales, we see the same quiet, heartfelt gratitude and the same sense of shared pride. Wales has given so much in the defence of our nation, from the battlefields of the Somme and Passchendaele, to the more recent conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, as Lindsay Whittle has already mentioned.

Countless men and women from Welsh towns and villages have served with courage, honour and selflessness, fighting with their communities in their hearts, and with a love of their nation—every field and hedgerow and its people. Their names are etched in our war memorials—including those in Rhyl, Prestatyn and Denbigh, in my constituency, to name a few—but their legacy lives on in our freedom and in our shared British values.

As has already been mentioned, there is barely anyone in Wales who does not have a family connection to someone who served in the first or second world war. Remembrance is not just about looking back. It is about recognising our continuing duty to those who laid down their lives, those who serve today, and to the veterans and their families. That is why our motion is so important. It calls for practical steps to be taken to support our armed forces community.

We must ensure that no veteran ever faces homelessness. Giving veterans top priority in housing allocations is the right thing to do. No one should ever face homelessness. It is important to recognise that it is a complex issue, with those facing homelessness almost always presenting with very complex issues, from health issues to substance abuse, and they require a lot of help that goes far beyond providing accommodation. So, given their service to this country, providing priority housing to homeless veterans is quite literally the very least that we can do.

We should also help our service children by encouraging every school in Wales to become part of the armed forces friendly schools programme, so that children who move frequently because of their parents' service receive some stability and support. Our veterans' mental health services and charities, such as Change Step Wales, are doing excellent work, but we can and should go further.

A much higher share of veterans report long-term physical or mental health conditions that limit day-to-day activity, with 32 per cent of veterans classified as disabled, compared with 19 per cent of non-veterans. A study by King's College London found that just under 28 per cent of serving and former armed service personnel had a common mental health disorder. Extending free bus travel to all veterans would be another practical step to helping tackle loneliness and maintain that vital link with their communities.

And finally, creating a national military museum for Wales, as James Evans has already mentioned. I would love it to be within the Vale of Clwyd constituency, but that might be a decision that's unfortunately out of my hands. But, nonetheless, a national military museum for Wales would be very much welcome and would give our country a lasting place of remembrance and education, so the enormity of their sacrifice is recognised and commemorated by the next generation and those to come.

It's important that every year we stand in silence to remember their sacrifice. It's important that we do continue to remember, and it's important that we match our words and sentiments with action. So, let us stand together in this Senedd today to honour their memory and to reaffirm our duty to those who have served and continue to serve our country with pride, which should always go beyond political lines. I'd encourage all Members to support our motion without amendment this evening. Thank you very much.

The Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales to contribute now—Ken Skates.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. I am very grateful indeed to Members for their contributions today. I, like many here, was pleased to join local remembrance events last weekend. Of course, we held our Government remembrance debate yesterday, which rightly focused on remembrance. It was a rare but very welcome occasion when we all left party politics outside the Chamber.

I covered points 1 to 3 of the motion yesterday, in a motion that was, after all, agreed by everybody. Point 4 rightly highlights the contribution of the military and of defence right across Wales. We've been funding armed forces jobs fairs since 2021, and I would urge Members to visit one and see the incredible attendance and also the incredible opportunities available. I was very pleased that the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice attended the armed forces jobs fair and employer conference just last week in Cardiff. That event, and the armed forces jobs fair coming up in Wrexham next month, demonstrate our commitment to our military, along with our support for a Wales armed forces day.

Of course, we also enable our armed forces liaison officers, our AFLOs, to provide support in the community. We provide free swimming for the armed forces, we provide funding to help service children in our schools and we support veterans living with mental health issues through the Veterans' NHS Wales.

The recent armed forces jobs fair and conference in Cardiff, supported by this Government, was on the same day as Ministers were alongside the UK Minister for defence and industrial readiness at the Fields of Remembrance and later at General Dynamics in Merthyr, exploring opportunities for defence investment in Wales. Our First Minister recently spent time with the army and representatives from the defence industry at Cambrian Patrol, the military Olympics of patrolling skills, which puts Wales right on the world map. We fully recognise the importance of the military and defence and its contribution to Wales, to the economy, but also culturally and socially.

Point 5 raises a number of well-intentioned asks, which in their totality present challenges in our ability to support them. Our Homelessness and Social Housing Allocation (Wales) Bill was introduced in May and is currently going through Senedd scrutiny. It sets out how we'll systematically transform our approach to homelessness to help us achieve our long-term ambition to end homelessness in Wales. The Bill seeks to create a person-centred homelessness system that responds to the support needs of all applicants experiencing or at risk of homelessness, including, crucially, members of the armed forces community. Alongside the Bill, we plan to review the national housing pathway for ex-service personnel, a process that has already been initiated with partners and seeks to ensure that it is consistently applied across all of our local authorities.

The Armed Forces Friendly Schools scheme in Wales is a fantastic initiative, and it is SSCE Cymru, a Welsh Government funded project, that is pushing it out across Wales. Already 60 schools have achieved armed forces friendly school status. Gareth Davies said this is something we should encourage and, as a Government, we absolutely do, but it is not something that I believe could be mandated.

Veterans' NHS Wales continues to deliver quality mental health support for veterans in need. On peer group mentors, I know that this is a subject both the First Minister and my colleague, the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, are keen to see support for, including, crucially, as has been highlighted, female veterans. The Welsh Government supports the provision of peer mentoring and recognises the important role of lived experience as part of a holistic and person-centred offer of support. This does indeed form part of the transformation of mental health services being delivered by the strategic programme for mental health. This will seek to build on and embed work on lived experience and peer mentoring already funded by the Welsh Government. Veterans’ NHS continues to deliver quality mental health support for veterans in need.

Turning to free travel for veterans, we should of course remember that the covenant is about addressing disadvantage and special consideration for those who have given the most. This is an offer that I am pleased to see many transport operators, including TfW, make each year for remembrance. Many veterans, of course, will already benefit from the universal benefits on offer here to those over 60, and others have access to discounted fares through the veterans’ railcard. For those who have given the most, again, there are concessionary fares available for those who are injured and in receipt of compensation. So, I do appreciate the idea, but free transport for all veterans would be a considerable challenge, and it would likely lead to similar calls for emergency workers, who also face life and death scenarios, to receive the same entitlement.

Now, I know a national military museum is a long-standing aspiration of the Welsh Conservatives, and I had the pleasure of attending RWF Fest at Hightown barracks recently, in which the Royal Welch Fusiliers regimental museum held a fabulous pop-up event in Wrexham. We have some incredible museums across Wales celebrating history and educating people in the process, including the Firing Line at Cardiff Castle alongside the Royal Welsh Museum in Brecon and the Royal Welch Fusiliers Museum in Caernarfon. I suspect the best place for a national museum right now is in our respective manifestos.

Now, turning to Plaid's call on the Welsh Government, due regard is something that we already have been doing in many areas. Initiatives such as Veterans' NHS Wales and the housing pathway demonstrate that. But, going forward, we look positively towards the principle that the legal duty should be extended through the armed forces covenant to the UK and devolved Governments. I've covered our approach to peer mentoring in response to the Conservative amendment. Local health boards, I do believe, are best placed to consider local health needs.

We look forward to Alabaré producing their scoping study on veterans' homelessness. We're not the client for this piece of work, but we will be very interested to see what it says and look forward to it as a prompt for possible policy consideration here in Wales. We'll update the website with the minutes of our armed forces expert group, which is incredibly valuable and something both I and Sarah Murphy have been attending. And I know that my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice has been consistent in seeking to make sure people in Wales are able to claim what is rightfully theirs.

In conclusion, as outlined yesterday, we come together during this period and reflect on the contribution of our armed forces community in Wales. As a Government, we take our commitments seriously and demonstrate that in the support we provide to our armed forces.

Finally, Lindsay Whittle mentioned that he visited our armed forces in Afghanistan. The Minister for Veterans and People served in Afghanistan. Her colleague, the Minister for Armed Forces, is the most decorated Member of Parliament in recent times. They know better than any of us what serving in the armed forces entails, and what our serving personnel, our veterans, reservists and cadets need. And that's why we will see a broadening of the covenant, a record increase in spending on defence and an unprecedented investment in military accommodation. We now have a UK Government that speaks louder with positive action for our armed forces than simply with words. Diolch.

Sam Rowlands now to reply to the debate. 

Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you to all Members, including the Cabinet Secretary, for what's been a thoughtful and heartfelt debate this afternoon. I'm particularly grateful to those Members, like Gareth Davies, who shared local examples of how communities across Wales continue to honour, rightfully, our armed forces not just during the remembrance period but all year round. And I thought Paul Davies, in particular, highlighted the all-year-round nature of that support through organisations like the VC Gallery in Pembrokeshire.

As we've heard, remembrance is not only about reflection, but about respect and responsibility. In Wales, we see that, every year, veterans, cadets and families come together, standing side by side in quiet tribute. It's something that binds our community together, and I think Julie Morgan was absolutely right to point to the contribution of those fighting for our peace from around the world over the years. Joyce Watson pointed to the many voluntary groups who make a big difference in our communities, bringing them together at times like these. But remembrance, as we've heard, must also mean action and that's what our motion is all about today, because while it's right that we wear the poppy with pride, it's equally right that we ensure those who served have a home, have support and have opportunities when they return to civilian life. And I think the Member for Caerphilly powerfully shared this point from his experience in Afghanistan. It pains us all when we see veterans unable to access the support they need. As many have mentioned, no veteran who served our country should ever be homeless here in Wales. Giving veterans that top priority in housing allocations would be a simple but a powerful step to recognise this.

And why is it that support for our veterans is so important? It is because we recognise the prize for which their service is rendered, the most precious commodity known to humanity: freedom. Remembrance compels us to stop and appreciate the liberties we often take for granted—the freedom to speak, to vote, to gather, to live our lives without fear of tyranny, every right we exercise today paid for by the sacrifices of those we remember. Their courage protected our democracy and our way of life from those who sought to extinguish it. When we stand silent, we're not just mourning loss, we are celebrating the successful defence of liberty itself, understanding that freedom is never free.

Equally, we must remember that the peace we enjoy, provided by veterans of old, is not self-sustaining. It is actively maintained by serving personnel today, personnel who are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice at the drop of a hat. And that's why James Evans was rightly outraged and disappointed to see Plaid Cymru deleting our motion to recognise the significant ongoing contribution that the military makes to Wales today. The peace and prosperity enjoyed on these islands is actively underwritten by our commitment to security and our armed forces today. This requires us to recognise our military's ongoing contribution to our nation, commit to supporting and investing in defence, because when we neglect the support required to maintain readiness, the secure peace we cherish starts to degrade. I thought it was a point that the Cabinet Secretary acknowledged fully in his response here today.

I'm not going to be able to address every point that Members have raised this afternoon, but what I will say in closing, Llywydd, is this: remembrance isn't about one weekend in November. It's about the choices we make every day to support those who have given and continue to give so much for our freedom. As Welsh Conservatives, we have a clear plan to make sure our veterans are supported in a country they fought so bravely to protect. I'd like to thank all Members once again for contributing to this important debate. I hope the Welsh Government will listen, act and ensure that Wales remains not only a nation that remembers, but one that actively and truly supports its armed forces. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will, therefore, defer voting until voting time, which will take place now.

Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will move immediately to the vote. This afternoon's votes are on item 7, the Welsh Conservatives' debate on remembrance and the armed forces community. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, no abstentions, 35 against. The motion is, therefore, not agreed.

The next vote is on amendment 1, and if amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, one abstention, 35 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is not agreed.

Amendment 2 is next, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 36, one abstention, 11 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is agreed.

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 47, one abstention, none against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

That concludes voting for this afternoon, but we do have a remaining item of business, which is the short debate.

This evening's short debate is in the name of Sioned Williams.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I'll be giving a minute of my time to Adam Price.

I want to highlight in this debate the importance of strengthening human rights protections for the people of Wales. It's a matter that strikes at the very heart of our collective future. The cross-party group on human rights, which I chair, has today published a report following our short but powerful inquiry into the state of human rights in Wales. The findings are both sobering and galvanising. They reveal a Wales where human rights are too often promises rather than protections, aspirations rather than guarantees. Rights that cannot be claimed are not rights at all. They are hopes. They are dependent on political goodwill, on policy discretion, and on the priorities of the day. I want to set out why this isn't acceptable.

I first want to thank the secretary of the cross-party group, Professor Simon Hoffman of Swansea University, and Glenn Page of Amnesty Cymru, for their work on producing this report and their long-standing dedication to the work of strengthening human rights in Wales. We are fortunate to have experts and advocates such as these, many of whom I have the privilege of working with on the cross-party group on human rights, who inform and interrogate policy makers through their research and campaigning.

I thank you all.

The cross-party group's inquiry asks a simple question: is the Welsh Government delivering on its commitment to strengthen human rights? The answer we received from people across Wales, academics, campaigners, organisations and individuals, was a clear and consistent 'no'. People across Wales continue to face poverty, inadequate support and barriers to accessing healthcare, housing, education and justice. Discrimination, both direct and systemic, continues to deny the rights of disabled people, women, black and minority ethnic people, and children. However, despite a decade of recommendations from the UN, Senedd committees, independent research and civil society, the Welsh Government has not delivered its programme for government commitments to incorporate key UN treaties into Welsh law.

This isn't so much a failure of aspiration; it's been a source of pride that Wales has led the way in recognising the importance of human rights. Human rights are central to devolved Government in Wales. The Government of Wales Act 2006 prohibits Welsh Ministers from exercising their functions in a way that is incompatible with the European convention on human rights or the UK's international obligations, which include human rights obligations. We were the first country in the UK to partially incorporate the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.

The 'Strengthening and advancing equality and human rights in Wales' research, commissioned by the Welsh Government and published in 2021, examined how effectively equality and human rights are currently protected and promoted in Wales and what further steps are required to strengthen delivery. The research found that Wales has developed a strong policy and legislative foundation, including the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, due regard duties for children's rights and the socioeconomic duty.

However, despite this ambition, the study identified a persistent gap between commitments and implementation. A key conclusion was that the existing landscape is fragmented and complex, with overlapping duties that are not always well understood or consistently applied by public bodies. And crucially, the research found that enforcement mechanisms are weak and routes to remedy are limited, meaning rights often rely on policy rather than legal guarantee. Awareness of human rights among the public and front-line staff is low and lived-experience contributors reported that current protections have limited impact on their day-to-day lives. 

The report crucially recommended a more coherent and enforceable approach, including introducing a human rights (Wales) Act to incorporate key international treaties into Welsh law. The research emphasised that to realise Wales's stated ambitions, rights must be embedded in law to ensure that the rights are real in people's everyday lives.

Following this research, this Welsh Government's programme for government committed to incorporating the United Nations convention on the elimination of discrimination against women and the United Nations convention on the rights of disabled people. However, little progress has been made towards this aim, and with only a few months left before the election, it's now clear that these commitments will, disappointingly, not be delivered during this Senedd term.

The cross-party group on human rights launched its inquiry in the summer of this year following growing concern across civil society, academia and grass-roots groups that, despite rhetoric and policy intention, many people in Wales cannot rely on their human rights being recognised. It sought to understand lived experience of human rights in Wales. Over 20 organisations and individuals submitted evidence, including national charities, expert bodies, academics and campaigner groups. The cross-party group heard consistently that rights in Wales often remain aspirational rather than enforceable. Many reported that without legal enforceability and strong accountability mechanisms, policy commitments alone have been insufficient to prevent discrimination, poverty, exclusion and harm.

The inquiry echoed themes identified in previous Senedd committee reports and the Welsh Government-commissioned research, reinforcing the view that Wales must now move from ambition and 'due regard' duties to enforceable rights backed by legislation, oversight and clear remedies. The report demonstrates the harms caused when rights are not protected and underscores the urgency, therefore, of delivering on promises to strengthen human rights. The inquiry heard, for example, that disabled people in Wales continue to experience significant and systemic barriers to their rights under the UNCRPD. Evidence showed that educational settings frequently exclude disabled children, both formally and in more subtle ways that deny them equal participation.

Learning Disability Wales described the continued use of restraint and restrictive practices as a major concern. Disability Wales stressed that without direct incorporation into law, disabled people are left dependent on policy commitments that can be inconsistently applied and easily overlooked. Learning Disability Wales starkly warned that despite commitments to equitable health and social care in Wales, people with a learning disability are still facing significant barriers, resulting in earlier mortality rates, poor mental and physical health and preventable illnesses becoming severe. The inquiry received powerful evidence from the Stolen Lives group, which is made up of families who have loved ones with a learning disability or who are autistic and who are detained in long-stay institutions and hospitals, denying them their rights in so many ways.

So, what difference would incorporation of the UNCRPD into Welsh law make? Well, the treaty establishes a human rights framework that recognises that disabled people have the same human rights as everyone else, but often face social barriers. The treaty sets out what Governments and societies must do to remove these barriers, and covers rights such as inclusive education, independent living and non-discrimination. Incorporation would mean that these rights would be enforceable in our courts and enable people to hold Governments and public bodies to account. 

The report also shows that women in Wales continue to face unequal outcomes in safety, health and economic participation. Economic inequality compounds this picture. Single mothers and women in low-paid work remain at high risk of poverty. Poverty and inadequate housing undermine fundamental rights for people across Wales. Evidence from Tai Pawb and Shelter Cymru highlighted the urgent need to protect people's rights to adequate housing. We heard evidence that people fleeing domestic abuse are often left in precarious and traumatising situations, with one survivor explaining that a clear right to housing would have transformed her experience of homelessness. We heard about individuals with serious health conditions living in B&B accommodation without cooking facilities, reliant on relatives for meals and stability. These accounts remind us that poverty is not an abstract economic condition, but a persistent violation of dignity, security and health.

The report also makes clear that structural racism remains embedded across public services. Black and minority ethnic people face poorer outcomes in housing, healthcare, education and employment. Race Equality First expressed concerns that tackling racial inequality has not been given equal priority, stating that it's

'deeply concerning, especially considering Welsh Government’s Anti-racist Wales Action Plan and the consistent feedback from respondents to the draft plan highlighting the need to integrate and embed existing strategies, policies, and legislation into the Anti Racist Wales Action Plan, including UNCERD.'

They also expressed concern that ending racial discrimination has not been given equal priority, with the Welsh Government committing to incorporating CEDAW and UNCRDP, but not CERD. Could the Cabinet Secretary provide a response to that point specifically?

The children's commissioner explained that gaps in the current model mean children's rights do not have adequate protections. This was exposed during a judicial review to challenge a Welsh Government decision on free school meals during school holidays. Whilst the Government acknowledged it had acted unlawfully due to not carrying out a children's rights impact assessment, this did not result in a different outcome for children and families due to the limitations of the 'due regard' model we currently have in Wales under the 2011 Measure.

Testimony from young people moving from child and adolescent mental health services to adult mental health services described the experience as 'falling off a cliff', reflecting systemic gaps in continuity of care. The evidence we heard about one family of 13 living with mould, structural damage and repeated damp, illustrated the everyday consequences of a system that too often fails to guarantee children safe and adequate living conditions.

There was also stark evidence about the collapse of immigration and asylum legal aid in Wales, which has created an advice desert impacting the rights of asylum-seekers and refugees within Welsh communities. Whilst the Welsh Government is not directly responsible for these policy levers, they can impact on the rights of refugees and asylum seekers to access their rights in areas that are devolved, including housing. So, what conversations are the Welsh Government having with their partners in Westminster on this issue specifically?

With the Senedd election approaching, the responsibility now falls to the next Welsh Government to ensure rights are made real for the people of Wales, because this report is not just a record of concerns, it's a mandate for action. The cross-party group's report reiterates the urgent need for a human rights (Wales) Act, which should be introduced at the earliest opportunity, alongside a clear plan and timeline to take forward the wider recommendations of the strengthening and advancing equality and human rights research.

And the timing, Llywydd, is crucial. A powerful, co-ordinated anti-human-rights movement is growing across the world and here in Wales, threatening to roll back hard-won freedoms and rewrite the rules on whose rights, bodies and lives deserve protection. It is no longer enough to say we support human rights, we must protect them in law to ensure that now, and in the future, the Welsh Government will be bound by this Senedd to uphold human rights.

Wales has an opportunity to lead the way on human rights within the UK. We can ensure that every person in Wales, regardless of background, ability, gender, race or circumstance can live with dignity, freedom and equality. When we defend one group’s human rights, we defend everyone's human rights. I look forward to hearing the Government's response on this imperative matter. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Llywydd. I'm very grateful to Sioned Williams for the opportunity to affirm that Plaid Cymru supports a human rights Act for Wales. We will incorporate the five core agreements of the United Nations in Welsh law, in Government, if we have the opportunity to form a Government. That process should be inclusive and innovative, and we should be open to considering new rights, even, in addition to those being incorporated internationally, from the right to the truth, for example, to rights to nature, thereby giving teeth to the future generations Act.

We have to ensure access to justice through creating the right for any citizen or group to challenge a breach of rights, not just those that impact on them directly, very similarly to the rights that exists under the constitution of India, for example. And we should create an independent rights commission for Wales—there's been one in Scotland for almost 20 years now—with independent powers to investigate, placing a duty, through the legislation, on public bodies to comply. As Sioned said, let us make Wales a nation of human rights in action, not just in words.

The Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice to reply to the debate—Jane Hutt.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd, and thank you, diolch yn fawr, Sioned. Thank you for securing this short debate on the importance of strengthening human rights for the people of Wales.

Thank you for your report too, 'Progress on Human Rights in Wales'.

Human rights are universal, and the real test for any Government is simple: do people feel those rights in the services they use every day, at school, at the health centre, with their GP, in safe homes and communities, and in workplaces that treat them with dignity? And human rights, of course, as you have identified very clearly, are embedded in the founding legislation of Welsh devolution. They form part of our core values, which reflect how we want to be as a nation. The Human Rights Act 1998, the Government of Wales Act 2006 and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 set the constitutional spine for how Ministers and public bodies must act, aligning Wales with the European convention on human rights. And I am pleased that we are able to have this debate today, and I welcome it, and the scrutiny, and your report that’s been published today.

But taken together, in terms of these legislative instruments, they do require lawful, transparent and rights-aware decision making, and create duties that apply across public services. But important as this legislation is, this Government doesn't view human rights as something we are simply required to do. We are absolutely committed to building a fairer Wales where diversity is valued and respected, where no-one faces discrimination and prejudice, and where everyone can participate, flourish and fulfil their potential. And the language of rights belongs in the everyday. That's why our focus is on delivery in devolved services and on the decisions that shape people's day-to-day lives.

And we want to protect the dignity and human rights of all people in Wales, and as the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, of course, human rights is a key part of my portfolio. I'm strongly driven to progress our commitment to human rights by embedding those rights into our policies and principles. And I'm proud to serve in a Government for which equality and human rights are a bedrock. I'm proud that we've turned the language of honouring, protecting, advancing and strengthening into practical action across portfolios, and our commitment to upholding, strengthening and advancing human rights in Wales is one that does run right across this Government. It's a shared duty that guides how we set priorities, use evidence, spend public money and report on results. And it is also an obligation we share with the public bodies, commissioners, regulators and inspectorates.

Human rights don't exist solely within the confines of my portfolio, which I will focus on particularly today; they're a moral imperative that defines and drives this Government. I just want to reflect for a moment on our commitment to human rights in our national equality objectives, which we renewed last year. They're also stated in our 'Strategic Equality and Human Rights Plan 2025 to 2029'. In 2020, recognising the stark inequality highlighted by the pandemic, the Welsh Government commissioned Professor Simon Hoffman, who's already been mentioned as supporting, of course, the cross-party group so ably and effectively—Simon Hoffman from Swansea University—we commissioned him and his colleagues to explore how best we could move forward in Wales with human rights—not just how the Welsh Government might move forward, but also public authorities, Welsh commissioners and Equality and Human Rights Commission regulators and inspectorates. This piece of work led to the 'Strengthening and advancing equality and human rights in Wales' research report. To progress the recommendations coming out of that report, we set up the human rights advisory group, which I chair. Many of the stakeholders you've mentioned today who've been engaged in giving evidence and also to the cross-party group, and we engage with through our forums, sit on that advisory group.

We launched the Welsh Government's 'Strategic Equality and Human Rights Plan 2025 to 2029' by pulling together a promise to deliver the national equality objectives and our long-term vision of Wales, where fairness, anti-discrimination and inclusion are at the heart of everything we do. Essentially, this plan is about making equality and human rights stronger and more prominent. It's also about ensuring that everyone understands what their rights are and feels confident using them. What this plan really does is bring together all our existing commitments into one straightforward, joined-up framework, and, just as importantly, gives us the flexibility we need, with targeted action plans that focus on the needs of specific groups with protected characteristics. We've placed this commitment at the heart of the plan for 2025 to 2029, and, through our annual reports on equality and human rights, you can see clearly how we're keeping that commitment and making progress.

I'll start by focusing on the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', which is a bold example. Our vision is for a truly anti-racist Wales by 2030, and our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' is the driver for this. The plan was co-produced with black, Asian and minority ethnic people and organisations. They were clear that they wanted us to work towards the ambitious goal of an anti-racist Wales by 2030. We're committed to making it a reality through measurable, targeted actions. It was really important, back when we were co-creating this, how they wanted and clearly guided us to move from a racial equality plan to an anti-racist Wales action plan. That's been so important in terms of driving our ambitions forward.

The 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' is a dynamic document. It's updated to ensure we're constantly learning, we're adapting our approach, and responding to new opportunities and to new threats. We have a relentless focus on that. Achieving an anti-racist Wales by 2030, of course, requires the joint effort of Government, communities, public and third sector institutions and the private sector. We are building a model for change by engaging directly with communities, empowering them to help shape policies through engagement with regional forums and fora.

We have to then see that monitoring and impact frameworks are crucial to the plan. Our external advisory group, our external accountability group, is unique in the way that it comes together, with the Permanent Secretary as co-chair with Professor Ogbonna, and the members recruited from Wales and further afield. They've emphasised the importance of visible anti-racist leadership from Cabinet Secretaries and Ministers. That group has been pivotal in driving cultural change within the civil service, within our public services here in Wales.

I think it's important, in terms of making progress, that we're mindful that deep societal change takes time, and our policies and interventions are designed to create generational impact, building on the refreshed plan and setting up a foundation for a fairer, more inclusive Wales in 2030 and beyond. The 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan’ includes a full chapter on our nation of sanctuary vision, and this replaces the 2019 nation of sanctuary plan. The actions included in the new chapter set out how we, together with our partners, aim to deliver support in a number of areas that support migrant integration and community cohesion. I was glad to join, which I'm sure many of you did as well, the Sanctuary Coalition Cymru event today, 'Protecting our nation of sanctuary', their Senedd manifesto launch. Of course, I'm proud to wear their badge, 'Stability for people, strength for Wales'. That's so important. I'm proud that our nation of sanctuary work is ongoing and that we continue to support refugees and sanctuary seekers who come to Wales. But we're also proud of our many communities, towns, schools and universities who wish to become places of sanctuary. We met some of them today.

Can you just take a brief intervention on that? One of the things highlighted in the report, and I touched on it in my contribution, was that people can't retain or exercise their legal rights, those who are refugees and asylum seekers, because, as the Bevan Foundation says, there's almost no representation for immigration appeals in Wales. In a recent study, 40 per cent of people with a current legal case can't find representatives. Could you respond to that, because we know that's been a long-standing problem highlighted to us, hasn't it?

Absolutely. I met with the Bevan Foundation earlier this week. I met them to discuss the report. They did an excellent report. It is a desert in terms of immigration advice. This is something that I've raised with the UK Government, but also the Counsel General as well. Of course, it's a desert in terms of legal aid and legal advice. We do fund, as a Welsh Government, Asylum Justice. We are funding some legal advice. I also will take the opportunity to say that, on Thursday, I met with 30 law students from Cardiff University who are actually taking an option on immigration legal advice, learning about how they could take this forward to their profession. But obviously we need to then ensure that they have the jobs that can enable them to deliver that, because they were passionate. We fund that course. We also fund Asylum Justice. They are actually taking up cases and also being successful in terms of resolution. I was very pleased that Welsh Government could do that, but the UK Government has to take responsibility, and I'm working with them. So, thank you for raising that point as well.

I'm conscious of time, but I would like to say that I also today met There and Back Again, some Gypsies in Wales who wanted to tell us about their lived experience. That's really important in terms of human rights and our commitment in the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan’. I'll quickly say that we are shortly going to publish our disabled people's rights plan. It is a rights plan, again, co-produced with disabled people, guided by our principles and obligations of the United Nations convention on the rights of disabled people. That will be very much reflected in the plan, and I look forward to sharing that with you.

Again, Llywydd, it's really important that we look at the recommendations of the Equality and Social Justice Committee's report into social cohesion, which is also about enhancing and strengthening human rights. I'm very pleased that we've established an expert group on cohesion, to be chaired by Gaynor Legall CBE. Also, just to recognise that I recall, in fact, giving a lecture in Swansea University referring to the fact that the greatest violation of human rights, you could argue, is violence against women, and I will be making a statement. I know that we will all be taking part in White Ribbon Day and the vigil shortly.

I just want to finally say, Llywydd, in terms of the incorporation and legislative options working group, it is important to say that we're acting now to strengthen rights in Wales. I'm taking forward that work to give effect to the principles set out in the UN convention on the rights of disabled people, the UNCRPD, and CEDAW, the convention for the elimination of discrimination against women, within devolved competence, and that’s through legislative and non-legislative routes that could stand up and legally work in practice. Just on CEDAW, I look forward to the Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women coming to Cardiff in March 2026. It is hosted by Cardiff Council and supported by Cardiff University and the Wales Governance Centre. Cardiff Council is the first city for CEDAW in Europe, and I think we should be proud of that. I know you will all be invited to that event.

But we have commissioned independent expert analysis. Our legislative options working group, a bespoke sub-group of the human rights advisory group, is doing an assessment to identify workable options for Wales. We are, of course, very conscious of work that is going on in Scotland as well. We're learning from each other. It is careful, thorough, bespoke work for Wales. Indeed, very shortly, you are going to be able to get an update, because we have arranged for this with the lead researcher in that work.

So, can I just say, finally, that the importance of strengthening human rights can be measured only in the difference people feel in their daily lives? Let’s end where we began, with people. Rights must be secure in law, felt in the places people live their lives, and durable beyond any one Minister. Diolch yn fawr.

That brings today's proceedings to a close.