National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. And may I take this opportunity, as this will be the last meeting before the Welsh women play in the 2025 women's Euros, on behalf of the Senedd, to wish our national time every success as they undertake the task of competing at the Euros, representing us on the international stage, as the national football team, for the very first time. So, we wish them every success, and we're all very proud of what they have already achieved on our behalf. [Applause.]

We will now move to questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, and the first question is from Natasha Asghar.

Yes, of course. I was delighted to open the final improvement sections of the Heads of Valleys road on 12 June. This development will support economic growth by generating jobs, fostering prosperity, providing opportunities, and enhancing connectivity and benefits for communities throughout the region.

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. I've been helping a couple living close to the A465 in relation to damage caused to their house during the construction process. In one instance, many of the double-glazed windows at my constituents' property had indeed been blown, which have now been replaced by Future Valleys Construction. Prior to the construction work, a survey was carried out of the property, which, as far as I can see, did not show any cracks in the building. But if we fast forward a year, my constituents started noticing significant cracks in the property. The couple commissioned a private survey, which highlighted many C1 cracks and, more worryingly, a crack in their garage elevation, which posed a danger to the structural integrity of the garage's front wall.

My constituents have suffered immeasurably, Cabinet Secretary. The worry and stress as a result of the noise, dust and disruption have indeed taken a toll on them. They understand the need for a new road, but I'm afraid to say that they have been treated appallingly. All my constituents are asking for is that the damage due to this work, which has indeed been caused to their property, is fixed. FVC have received a copy of my constituents' privately commissioned survey and FVC have confirmed that they will be carrying out a post-construction survey to the property. So, Cabinet Secretary, given the road is now open, can you please put pressure on FVC to carry out this survey and urgently carry out the work that my constituents need to have done to their property to resolve this matter once and for all?

Yes, absolutely, and my thanks to the Member and, indeed, also to ITV Wales, which recently highlighted the challenge that many people have faced. As Natasha Asghar has identified, people do recognise the value of this road, but it has caused disruption, and I do apologise for any disruption caused to home owners.

The Member is absolutely right that Future Valleys Construction are undertaking assessments of individual properties and the entire stretch of the upgraded route, and any claims should, obviously, be sent to their claims department. It's not for Ministers to get individually involved in any claims that are forthcoming. But there will be a post-construction noise assessment undertaken, and that will be completed in full, with results available later this summer—in September I believe it will be. And in terms of compensation claims, they can be made for up to a year and a day after the completion of the works.

We're already taking action to make walking, wheeling and cycling safer and more inclusive, particularly for women and girls. And we'll continue to prioritise investment, local empowerment and evidence-led interventions that remove the barriers and help ensure everyone can feel safer on our streets when walking, wheeling and cycling.

Thank you for that respone.

The Cabinet Secretary may be aware of Cycling UK's latest campaign, My ride. Our right, which seeks to highlight the particular issues that women face when cycling. I think the Cabinet Secretary will be aware that women are 50 per cent less likely to cycle than men and that the main reason is because women don't feel safe. They suffer from a lack of lighting, intimidation, sometimes by drivers, and the infrastructure isn't up to what it should be, and half of women say that their cycle journeys are limited by safety concerns. So, I think it's great what the Welsh Government has done on active travel, taking things forward, but could he ensure that any future developments and existing developments take into account the fact that women do not, on the whole, feel safe when cycling and in other forms of active travel?

Absolutely, and I think Julie Morgan made a valuable point right at the end of her contribution then, to say that safety applies to all modes of movement. The fear of travel by cycling applies equally to walking and wheeling, as well, in many areas. This is something that Delyth Jewell has raised with me on a number of occasions, and we've had very good, constructive discussions about how we can improve safety right across all modes of transport. We don't just want safer streets; we want people to feel safer in their streets as well.

I do fully recognise the barriers that many women face when it comes to walking, wheeling and cycling, particularly, of course, around safety and infrastructure, and confidence as well. I don't think it's just a transport issue that we face; it's an equalities issue, it's a fairness issue. That's why we're working together to strengthen how we and local authorities embed equality considerations much earlier in the design process when it comes to investment in walking, wheeling and cycling schemes. We also have the access and inclusion panel as well, right at the heart of Transport for Wales. That is proving to be an incredibly valuable voice for people who are often the most vulnerable and who often express the deepest fear of leaving their homes and accessing public transport or engaging in active travel.

So, we're also building the skills, I should say, Llywydd, and providing support to local authorities and other delivery partners on equality impact assessments, inclusive designs and meaningful community engagement, because women's voices have to be heard from the outset, at the planning and prioritisation stage. This is something that we are insisting on at a local level. We're working with Transport for Wales. We're working with their access and inclusion panel, and, through the agenda that we have described as 'travel for all', we are ensuring that the most vulnerable, including women, are at the forefront of our considerations whenever investment in transport infrastructure is made.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your answer to Julie Morgan.

I want to talk about the visually impaired, if that's OK, Cabinet Secretary, because, in my constituency, in Llandrindod Wells, you're well aware of the active travel scheme that was designed by the Welsh Government. That scheme now is so wide it's actually forcing HGVs to mount the pavement, which is actually creating a real safety hazard for people who are visually impaired, parents pushing prams, and also people who are cycling. I would say that whoever designed the scheme doesn't really have an ounce of common sense, because, if you go there and actually see it, you would actually understand the problems that it is causing pedestrians and HGV drivers, and the risks that it is posing. So, will you commit today to reviewing that scheme, to make sure it is safe for pedestrians, and, if we are going to have any future active travel schemes, that, actually, consideration is taken to the movement of HGVs around narrow roads?

It's a very timely question that James Evans asks because I actually met with haulage companies and representative bodies on Monday, where this concern was raised. At the weekend, I also met with the Royal National Institute of Blind People, where similar concerns were raised as well. So, of course, we will audit that particular project as we move forward with revising the design guidance for active travel, which a number of organisations have now said is urgently needed, to protect the most vulnerable on our streets.

I'd like to thank Julie Morgan for raising this very important issue. You'll be aware, Cabinet Secretary, that changes are in the pipeline in terms of the Rhondda Cynon Taf school transport policy to offer the statutory level of provision, namely a distance of 3 miles for secondary schools, rather than the current 2 miles. Safety is a matter that a number of parents and pupils have raised with me as a cause of great concern, particularly girls, and particularly in winter, when it's dark, when they set off for school on foot or by bike, and on the way home. It's also a matter that comes through clearly in this document, which is a report by parents in Rhondda Cynon Taf, based on comments from the community. What expectations do you have as a Government in terms of what local authorities should do to ensure that school transport policies ensure the safety of learners and that their voices are heard when there are consultations on these issues? Everyone should be able to feel safe as they travel to school.

Can I thank Heledd Fychan for her question and say that, as far as my experience informs me, every local authority is concerned with the welfare and the safety of young people whenever they make decisions around transport matters? We, of course, held recently the learner transport summit, which was a very successful event in discussing the challenges that we face. There are many challenges in regard to learner travel and learner transport, and also some practical solutions. Of course, we're taking forward some in the immediate term, including the £1 fare cap for young people on buses. And, of course, the bus Bill, as well, will enable us to take back control of the network and better integrate bus services—scheduled bus services—with learner travel. But this is a major problem that we are working very closely with all local authorities on.

And when it comes to the mileage threshold, that is a matter for local authorities. We do recognise that, after 14 years of austerity, finances are stretched, but the taps have been turned on. And I hope that, in the future, as a result of the numerous interventions that we’re going to be making, the situation in regard to learner travel will improve considerably.

Questions from spokespeople will be next, but, before I call on Gareth Davies to ask his question, it's my pleasure to welcome the President of the New South Wales Legislative Council, who is in the public gallery. 

It's a real pleasure to welcome to our oriel, and to our Senedd, the President of the New South Wales Legislative Council, Ben Franklin, and your delegation. And as we had the opportunity to discuss this morning, we are in our temporary home here, not in our permanent home, which is being refurbished for the purposes of the next Senedd. But we have taken with us our Senedd mace, which is placed in front of us here, and was given as a very generous gift to us by the Parliament of New South Wales to the new Parliament of Wales, over 20 years ago. So, we're very grateful for that gift, and we treasure it well, and we move it with us wherever we may roam. 

So, thank you very much, and a very warm welcome to Wales. [Applause.]

Welcome to Wales. [Applause.]

So, Gareth Davies—spokespeople's questions. 

Diolch, Llywydd. North Wales is at the heart of our nation’s tourism economy. We welcome millions of visitors each year, and it’s vital to sustain our regional economy, directly contributing £1.8 billion to the north Wales economy each year. The visitor levy will undoubtedly have a big impact on our regional economy. This, with the Welsh Government’s own estimates projecting up to £576 million in economic damage, risks undermining one of our most successful industries. This tax sends the wrong signal at the worst possible time for the industry, with overnight stays in Wales down 29 per cent on 2022, and the latest world economic forum travel and tourism index ranking Britain one hundred and thirteenth out of 119 countries for price competitiveness. Making it even more expensive will deter visitors and, thus, revenue for our region.

But given the tax will be coming into force, I’m interested to know how the Cabinet Secretary will be supporting small businesses in the north Wales tourism sector who will be battling this additional tax on their industry, on top of the rise in national insurance, business rates and the second home council tax rate. So, can the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales tell us what discussions he has had with the Cabinet Secretary for the economy about the potential economic impact of this tax on the north Wales economy and how this will be mitigated by the Welsh Government?

Well, can I thank Gareth Davies for his question? At the weekend, I and many others from the Labour Party were over in Llandudno, a fabulous tourist destination—a magnificent place. We are very fortunate to represent north Wales constituencies, are we not? And, at the end of the conference, rather than rush back to Ruabon, I thought I’d just spend a little more time in the area, investing a little more time in the area. And I actually went over to Conwy as well, which is a fabulous place too. And you’ll be aware that it has the smallest house in the world on the seafront there. And I was told that your party is going to be holding your post-election conference in the porchway, in that particular tourist attraction next year. [Laughter.]

In direct answer to your question, I think it’s really essential—and I’ll be discussing this matter with the north Wales business council on Friday—absolutely essential that we see the visitor levy, I believe, as an opportunity, which is what many other places, like Greater Manchester, have seen it as. It was business led there, and the businesses have embraced it. Why? Because businesses realise that if you were to draw in more tourists, if you are going to add value to the sector, you have to make a place worth coming to. That means getting more investment into events, new installations, new attractions, new experiences, new cultural icons, and you can only do that if you’ve got the investment. So, I would say to the tourist sector, 'Please, please, work with your local authorities, work with us, as much as possible, to develop ideas, to ensure that we can draw in more visitors in the future, through better infrastructure for tourism, through better investment in businesses, through better investment in promotional activity, and, crucially as well, more investment in major events. Major events are a major pull, obviously. We've got the Tour de France, which I think will demonstrate huge value in having major events come to Wales. We can only get them if we have the money to invest in them. I think the tourism levy can do just that. It can provide us with the additional resource to draw in more major events.

I appreciate the sharpness and the wit of the Cabinet Secretary this afternoon. But if you take that small cottage in Conwy, for example, and quote the figure I gave you of a 29 per cent decrease in overnight stays in Wales, how is that going to help that cottage and the staff and the owners of that property and give them confidence for the future?

I'd like to also raise how this levy has been received by local authorities. Wrexham, Pembrokeshire, Rhondda Cynon Taf and Caerphilly councils have already come forward to rule themselves out of imposing the visitor levy, with only Cardiff Council so far indicating they would impose the tax. We don't know, as of yet, whether the local authorities in north Wales plan on imposing the visitor levy.

Local authorities have been lumbered with more and more responsibilities by the Welsh Government, with council tax rises significantly higher in Wales than in England, with north Wales suffering with some of the highest rises. Conwy, which you quoted, Minister, had the highest at a whopping 10 per cent. So, can the Cabinet Secretary outline what discussions he has had with north Wales local authorities regarding their views on this tax and whether they plan to introduce it? And will he receive confirmation from them that, if they do introduce it, the money raised will be ring-fenced and spent only on maintaining infrastructure?

This is a matter primarily for the Minister with responsibility for the economy, and the finance Minister as well. But I do speak regularly with local authorities in north Wales about this particular initiative, and I will support the decisions that local authorities make across the region, whether it is to implement the levy, or, if they choose not to, to refuse to.

That's the beauty of devolving responsibilities to the regions of Wales and to local authorities. I think it's absolutely right that it's the councils themselves that make this decision, because in some parts of north Wales tourism is far greater in terms of the proportion that contributes to the economy than in other areas, so there's greater potential to raise revenue from the levy, and in so doing there's greater potential to be able to invest in places that attract tourists.

And just talking again about the smallest house in the world, the way that we get more people to visit that is to promote it more, is to make sure that the streets are clean and attractive around it, and we can do that by utilising the resource available through the levy, if local authorities so choose to introduce it.

The tourism tax, whilst having the potential to deter visitors, does nothing to help the housing crisis, which is particularly severe in north Wales. This tax will not help solve north Wales's housing crisis. In Gwynedd alone, 3,800 people are on a social housing waiting list, of course. Yet, council tax premiums on second homes, up to 300 per cent, have not translated into affordable homes for young people in the region, with the premiums in Pembrokeshire largely failing to deliver local housing. So, while this Government is piling new burdens on tourists, who are doing us a favour by visiting and spending more money here, we achieve nothing for north Wales's families locked out of the market. We need affordable homes, built at lightning speed, incentives for year-round rentals, and support for local landlords, not symbolic taxes that bite the very businesses and jobs our communities depend on.

Wales needs 12,000 new homes every year. Yet, over the last decade, that has never been met. We have called to establish a dedicated taskforce of planners to tackle the backlog in the slowest performing councils, and create a planning apprentice for every council. So, can the Cabinet Secretary outline, given the tourism tax won't help the housing crisis, what concrete action is the Welsh Government taking today in north Wales to focus house-building efforts in the areas most affected by the housing shortage, to ensure the next generation are able to continue residing within their own communities?

I think it's a really important question the Member raises. It goes to the heart of what a Government needs to do to provide security for the people that it serves, and providing the security of a roof over one's head is fundamental to that. But you can't see one policy in isolation from other complementary policy areas. Yes, we've got huge targets, really ambitious targets for building new affordable homes, but you can't do that unless you actually resolve the planning challenge that we face, and Gareth Davies actually highlighted it, the need for more planners. With 14 years of austerity, when the Tories were calling it savings, actually, what it was was job cuts. And we need to recruit, train and secure more planners, if we are to build more affordable homes for people.

I'd also say that a huge part of the solution to the challenge that is faced right across communities, rural and urban, is the need to ensure that we get better jobs for people, that we free people to be able to acquire the home that they wish. And then we'll be able to deal with not just homelessness, but we'll be able to deal with a lack of churn within the housing chain as well, which is often so important to a prosperous economy.  

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Peredur Owen Griffiths. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Back in 2020, the Welsh Government published its assessment of UK historical investment in rail infrastructure enhancements. This confirmed what we had long suspected, that Wales has suffered chronic and systemic underinvestment in this area over several decades. It estimated a shortfall in funding of at least £2.4 billion to £5.1 billion over the period of 2001-29, which is in addition to the £4.6 billion-worth of HS2 consequential funding that has been unjustly withheld from Wales by successive UK Governments. Unfortunately, based on independent analysis of the recent spending review, it appears that this issue shows no sign of abating, and, if anything, the gulf that already exists is growing into a chasm. 

Professor Mark Barry has estimated that to place Wales on an even footing with England, we would need at least £250 million per annum for enhancements on both the core Valleys lines and the Network Rail network over the next 15 years, a figure that dwarfs the £445 million that has been committed over the next decade by your party in Westminster. It comes as little surprise, therefore, that the Wales Governance Centre has deemed the Chancellor's plans as underwhelming, leaving the systemic problems with how Welsh rail infrastructure spending is funded in place. So, will you commit to publishing a revised assessment of the historical investment in rail infrastructure enhancements in Wales, and do you believe it will show a reduction in the shortfall that you originally estimated by 2029? 

Well, can I thank the Member for his question? There's nothing really new in anything that's been raised today on this matter. The UK Labour Government, however, has, for the first time, acknowledged that there is significant underinvestment—historic underinvestment—in our railway network, and the £445 million extra was a down payment on that. Now, the reason that the Government was able to assign that level of funding to Welsh rail infrastructure was because over the years, in spite of austerity, we were able to fund and take forward numerous schemes around what Lord Burns had recommended, to ensure that they were shovel ready, to ensure that we could proceed with the planning consents, that we could proceed with the detailed plans, and then get them either delivered within a single spending period, or enable them to draw down additional funds through future spending periods. And that's what we've been hearing from the Chancellor, that's what we've heard from the Secretary of State for Wales, from our own First Minister, that this is only the beginning in addressing that historic underfunding.

Why do I say it's only the beginning? Because the projects that are contained within the agreed pipeline, an agreed pipeline between us and the Department for Transport, amount to, in the short term, £1 billion, and the £445 million will unlock the first major components of that investment, and then the longer term pipeline amounts to more than £4 billion at today's prices. I should just add, though, that when it comes to HS2, essentially you get Barnett consequentials once the money has been spent or allocated, and so the consequential that we should have expected to date is in the region of £350 million. By the end of this financial year, the Welsh Treasury estimates it to be around £431 million. So, it is very clear that the new UK Government is investing where other Governments refused to, making good the promise to address that historic underinvestment in the Welsh rail network.

Thank you for that response. 

But I would urge you to re-look and revise that plan to get us the clarity that we need, and to see if that underinvestment is continuing, or, as you explained there, that you believe that it will narrow. But being able to get that information in the public domain, that would be really useful.

The arbitrary nature of rail funding arrangements have, of course, been brought into sharp relief by the East West Rail fiasco. During Plaid Cymru's debate last week, the Cabinet Secretary for finance suggested that even though the comparability factor on the project had been altered, apparently without the prior knowledge of the Welsh Government, Wales would nevertheless receive some consequential funding through the spending review. Could you confirm the date on which you were made aware of the change of the comparability factor? Can you also say what is the precise amount of consequential funding, above the £1.2 million that the Welsh Government had already received prior to the change, that Wales has now received as a direct result of this project? And finally, can you confirm what the likely full amount of the consequential funding will be for this project over its lifespan?

This is an incredibly complicated area and, through rail reform, we wish to see it simplified and for greater transparency to emerge. Effectively, what happens with England and Wales is a lot of projects are taken forward through utilising local transport grants. That happens in Wales, it happens in England. In England, for the city regions, those grants are called 'the city region sustainable transport settlements'. So, when Members have been describing the £2.5 billion for greater Manchester over five years, that is, effectively, the city region sustainable transport settlement for that particular region. Here, it's devolved. So, we class our allocations as regional transport grants. They're going to be devolved from the start of the next financial year.

But as a result of the very positive news from UK Government—they've turned on the taps on investment in infrastructure for the first time in goodness knows how long—Wales will receive, as a direct result of those allocations, an additional £202 million. Now, of course, it will go into the block grant, but that consequential is enormous, and that's as a result of having a UK Government that is, once again, investing in infrastructure, and Wales is getting the benefit from it too in the form of those consequentials.

Thank you for that clarification. I'd like to turn now to the planned roll-out of the £1 bus fare for 16 to 21-year-olds. While we welcome the underlying principle of this scheme, there is a flaw with the current design in so far that it currently makes no provision for under-16-year-olds, who would be facing disproportionately higher fares compared to their peers. When I raised this with you a few weeks ago, you agreed to undertake a review of this matter ahead of the implementation of the scheme in September. Could you confirm whether this remains the case? And can you provide a guarantee that, as a result of the review, the scheme will be extended to under-16-year-olds in time for that roll-out? And can you also shed any light on why under-16s weren't considered within the original scope?

Well, can I thank the Member for his question? A lot of work has taken place in the past few weeks since this issue was last discussed, but I'd like to put on record my thanks to the Liberal Democrat Member of the Senedd, Jane Dodds, for bringing forward this proposal. I think it will make an enormous difference to young people across Wales. I was at Ysgol Dinas Brân recently, in Llangollen, and I was chatting with sixth formers there about their main concerns and their challenges in life, and one of them said, 'You know, effectively, our life chances could be locked into this valley unless we can gain affordable access to public transport, and unless we can have frequent and reliable and safe services.' Well, as a result of the £1 fare cap, we are going to provide that affordable public transport. And as a result of the bus Bill, we're going to provide reliable, safe and frequent services. So, we are addressing one of the major inhibitors for young people when they strive to reach their potential.

Now, in terms of the discussions with the bus operators, they have been pretty intense. There are many, many operators. The challenge around young people aged under 16 has been confined though to a comparatively small number of operators that we've been in discussions with. I'm pleased to say that the First Minister herself will be making an announcement about the fare-cap scheme later this month, and I'm hoping that all Members will welcome it.

Yes. We've invested £800 million in rolling stock, with brand-new and newly refurbished trains benefiting passengers across mid and west Wales, as the whole of Wales. And our investment has enabled Transport for Wales to operate more services, boost capacity, and deliver sustained performance improvements for passengers.

Cabinet Secretary, following the spending review, Rachel Reeves said that the Welsh Government had got everything it asked for, including when it comes to rail investment. My question to you today is simple: is this true? And if it is true, why did you ask for nothing, literally nothing at all, to invest in the railways west of Cardiff? Because the truth is that not only did the spending review deliver painfully little for Welsh rail, it delivered literally nothing for the railways in the region that I represent. Nothing to fix chronic delays and cancellations on the Heart of Wales line, which has some of the worst customer satisfaction ratings across the whole of Wales; nothing to improve the Cambrian line; nothing for a new station in St Clears, something that this Welsh Government has committed to but has shown no intention of ever delivering. I could go on, but we'd be here for a very long time. Are you of the view, Cabinet Secretary, that the people of mid and west Wales deserve less, and if not, why did the Welsh Government not even ask, never mind fight, for the kind of investment our railways so desperately need?

I think the question is wholly unfair. First of all, it's a comprehensive spending review that covers a three-year period. If you can't deliver within that time, you can't build within that time, then it's a struggle to get the money to build something that you're going to have to send the money back for because you won't complete it. Instead, we have now, for the first time, development money. For years, we haven't been able to progress schemes, not just in south-west Wales, mid Wales, but also across the whole of Wales. We haven't been able to pursue them unless we have funded them. But funding rail development when it's not devolved is extremely difficult when you're comparing that sort of investment against the need to invest in hospitals.

Investment in seven new stations will be taken forward once we are able to get them to that detailed design space with the full business case available, and we will be seeking to draw down funding in future spending rounds. But the most advanced projects were agreed between DfT and the Welsh Government because they are the projects that can be taken forward within this spending period. And I'm not going to play regions off against each other. It's absolutely right that we take forward the projects that are most advanced, that we can draw down the funding for. Otherwise we could be promised the money, but it would never be spent. We will spend that money. We will deliver the relief lines in south Wales. We will be building five stations along those relief lines in the years to come. We will be resolving capacity constraints on the Wrexham to Liverpool line. And I know you don't like that line, but we're going to be doing the job in the next three years. We're going to be resolving difficulties on the north Wales main line, which is holding back frequencies.

As a result of all of this investment, we're going to be seeing a 50 per cent increase in rail services across north Wales from next May. We will double rail services between Wrexham and Chester. We will see improved services. We will have two trains an hour on the Wrexham to Liverpool line in the next three years as a result of this funding. We'll see additional services in south Wales as well as a result of being able to deal with the Cardiff west junction. We want to make sure that investment takes place across Wales, but you have to make sure that you build up an investment pipeline. That's what we've done. In total it's valued at over £4 billion for the longer term, and that includes huge projects in your region.

Can I thank Cefin Campbell for this question? It's quite disingenuous when you're saying that you're not pitting regions of Wales off against each other when there was a project ready to go at St Clears, I'd met with TfW and DfT officials on the site, there was a project ready to go, yet five stations within 13 miles of each other in Cardiff and Newport get the green light before a project in west Wales that is ready to be delivered. So, tell me, Cabinet Secretary, if that's not playing off areas of Wales against each other, what is? Because I've got a community that supports this railway station being reopened at St Clears, it supports the investment that should be coming, that was guaranteed by the previous Government, but your predecessor had said could not be delivered. So, why has St Clears fallen foul, when five stations get built in the east of Wales?

Again, I don't think it's a fair question to ask. We are actually working with the region on this particular proposal. We've been working with the UK Government as well to develop plans for a station there. That's all part of the pipeline of longer term enhancements that I've just outlined to Cefin Campbell.

We're working as well with the local authority and the corporate joint committee as they put together their regional transport plan. It will be for the region to be able to advise the Welsh Government on what it thinks is a priority in that area, not just in terms of responsibilities that the region holds itself, but also responsibilities that Welsh Ministers and UK Government Ministers have. We will work collectively to deliver this scheme. We'll work with Transport for Wales as well to deliver detailed designs for that scheme. 

The problem with rail, as Lord Hendy himself has identified, is it often takes longer to deliver, costs more than one would hope, but once you've built it, no-one regrets doing it.

Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. Just to follow through on some of those issues, I'd like to specifically ask you about two of the lines that are in mid and west Wales. There's the Heart of Wales line, and there's the Cambrian line as well. On the Heart of Wales line, we had a promise for the restoration of the fifth service, which was taken away. I'd like to ask you for a progress update on that, and on the new trains that were promised for that line. It's absolutely essential for tourism and hospitality in that region, but people rely on it too. 

On the Cambrian line, we were promised an hourly service, and we still have a two-hourly service. You talked about north Wales having two trains an hour; we dream of that. It's important to us to look at those specific lines. We'd like the Cambrian line to be hourly throughout the year, not just in the summer months. Throughout the year, we want multiple carriages and we want them to be hourly. Could you please outline what your plans are, your commitment, and the absolute timelines that we want to see for the restoration of those services? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Can I thank Jane Dodds for her question, and, again, for the help that she gave in securing the new fifth service on the Heart of Wales line? That's planned to be delivered by Transport for Wales this year in the December timetable change. That service is planned to be better than the service that it replaces, the one that was removed due to low passenger usage.

Low passenger usage is a major issue to contend with. If we're going to put on more services across the network, we have to drive up the farebox. To drive up the farebox, we have to ensure that capacity is where demand is highest. That secures the maximum amount of resource to then cross-subsidise those services that have a higher cost-per-passenger price. So, getting more people onto rail services in other parts of Wales will be of benefit to the rail network in mid Wales as well.

In terms of the rolling stock, Transport for Wales is operating its active travel trains on the route, and it's my understanding that they are proving very popular with the travelling public. On the Cambrian line, Transport for Wales are now operating more services following the May timetable change: a new 16:30 service from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth has now been initiated, along with more Sunday services.

I just want to say something about performance, because we've heard claims that performance is abysmal on the network. Actually, performance of services on both the Heart of Wales line and the Cambrian line has improved. There have been more services on time, with fewer cancellations compared with last year. I'm pleased to say that the very latest statistics for rail performance for the whole of the UK place Transport for Wales firmly in the top half of the league table.

It wasn't long ago that we did have problems, we were struggling, but they're now well into the top half of the of the table. I'm pleased to say that they are still the best operator in and out of Wales, with 85 per cent of their trains on time to within three minutes, compared with 60 per cent for Avanti West Coast, 67 per cent for CrossCountry and 81 per cent for Great Western.

In terms of on-the-day cancellations, again, I'm pleased to say that Transport for Wales is the best operator in and out of Wales again for the latest period, with just 3.8 per cent cancelled on the day, compared to 3.9 per cent for Great Western, 4.2 per cent for Avanti West Coast, and more than double Transport for Wales's rate for CrossCountry—they're on 8.7 per cent. So, I think it's worth just reflecting and recognising the fact that Transport for Wales is the best operator in and out of Wales.

Across the Cabinet, we are committed to maximising the economic and decarbonisation opportunities available through deploying renewable and low-carbon energy generation in north Wales. We are working across all industries to ensure we attract the investment to create thousands of green jobs and growth across Wales.

Thank you. A new report by Oxford Economics evaluating the economic contributions of the civil nuclear sector across the UK, commissioned by the Nuclear Industry Association, highlights the sector's continued growth and the significant benefits it delivers, particularly where support is needed the most. The Welsh civil nuclear sector generated £850 million in gross value added in 2024, up 20 per cent since 2021, largely driven by Hinkley Point C and Sizewell C developments in England, with 830 direct jobs in the civil nuclear sector in Wales and 13,400 jobs in Wales supported by the sector. The report highlights that if a new nuclear power station is built at Wylfa, north Wales could see an economic contribution comparable to that experienced in the south-west of England, where Hinkley Point C is located. Nuclear GVA reached £4 billion in 2024, up 50 per cent since 2021. Given this potential, what specific steps is the Welsh Government taking to secure the development of a new nuclear facility at Wylfa and how is it working with the UK Government and industry stakeholders to ensure that north Wales benefits from the economic and employment opportunities that this could bring?

Can I thank Mark Isherwood for his question? It’s an excellent question. There is no doubt that the opportunities are immense in terms of the civil nuclear sector for north Wales. It’s part of that nuclear arc, which is one of the most vibrant arcs with regard to civil nuclear anywhere in Europe. I know that the Minister for Economy, Energy and Planning, who is leading in this area, is engaged with the sector, with representative bodies, with individual organisations and companies. There is excitement that I’ve rarely felt in terms of opportunities for the nuclear sector in Wales. Rolls-Royce have announced their intention to invest huge sums in the Welsh workforce and in the supply chain, and I know that the Minister for economy is incredibly keen to secure every penny of investment that this great initiative could bring.

The Cabinet Secretary will be aware that the use of electricity is increasing hugely at the moment. We are seeing more people being encouraged to generate electricity themselves, and people buying more electric vehicles and charging them at home. But, at the same time, the capacity of the grid in north Wales is very limited, particularly in the Llŷn and Eifionydd areas, where people are concerned that there isn't going to be capacity there for electricity generation or huge use of electricity, moving forward into the near future. So, what discussions is the Government having with the national grid to increase the capacity in that area and ensure that it is appropriate for the future?

Can I thank Mabon ap Gwynfor for his question? This is something, again, that the Minister for Economy, Energy and Planning is leading on. But there is huge potential for off-the-grid generation, as the Member has identified, both in terms of smaller scale generation programmes, and also, potentially, the roll-out of small modular reactors. The Member is absolutely right that the grid is stretched to capacity. A lot of discussion is taking place with the UK Government over this particular challenge, which isn’t just facing householders, as the Member rightly identifies, it’s affecting many business ambitions as well. It needs to be resolved and I know that the Minister is well on top of her brief when it comes to this particular challenge.

The Cabinet Secretary and I, along with our respective teams, have worked hand in glove since the port’s closure to align our respective portfolio responsibilities. Ynys Môn county council, with their local intelligence, play an integral part in those discussions and informing proposals relating to support for businesses affected.

Thanks for the response. The Cabinet Secretary will be aware of the deep economic impact that the closing of Holyhead port had, and continues to have, of course, on the town. We're talking about a fall of almost £0.5 billion pounds in trade through the port in December last year, compared with the year previously—footfall down 36 per cent, businesses reporting a 90 per cent drop in trade, some of them, and one hotel operator alone losing out on almost £15,000-worth of bookings overnight. And that's in one of the busiest trading months of the year.

The impact assessment was carried out by Ynys Môn county council back in January, and in April the council formally outlined to the Welsh Government their proposed package for business support. But now, we're many months on from the port's closure and from the submission of that report by the council, and both local businesses and the local authority are being left in the dark still about the support that might be made available. So, can the Cabinet Secretary confirm whether he is making the case to his Cabinet colleagues for an urgent support package, and whether businesses can expect that support to come sooner rather than later?

Can I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for his question? I do agree that the closure had a significant impact on Holyhead in particular, and communities further away as well. I'd also like to thank the Member for attending last week's taskforce meeting. I can say that the local authority last week submitted a funding request for a package of support for Holyhead. This is being appraised as swiftly as possible by the Cabinet Secretary for economy, who is considering the proposals and will respond very soon. That package contains two elements. I'm not sure whether I am yet allowed to disclose what they are. I can say, I think, that they regard the potential of the cruise sector to benefit Holyhead. There is also another element that regards business support, such as partnering with Business Wales, expanding the Smart Towns Cymru initiative, various initiatives around marketing, communications, placemaking and capacity funding for the council. But I don't wish to give too much detail that is really in the hands of the Cabinet Secretary for economy to provide. 

Bus grants to local authorities have increased in 2025-26, stabilising services and supporting the transition to franchising. We are increasing capacity on the busiest rail services, and when all the new trains are delivered, Transport for Wales will have 485 carriages, compared to the 270 that we inherited back in 2018.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary. Some Members in the Chamber may think that public transport in Cardiff is excellent, but it isn't. The UK Government's statistics show that trains in Cardiff are the second most crowded in Wales and England, and the same is true for buses, truth be told. I've told you before that I often can't get on a bus because I have a pram with my child, who is 22 months old. Then, the next bus that comes—. I have to wait for a very long time for that next bus. Indeed, it's far easier to use the car on occasion.

But there is a genuine opportunity now that the demand for public transport in Cardiff will increase significantly. We saw, with the invasion of Russia in Ukraine, that prices of fuel are increasing hugely to the highest ever levels. We've seen with the instability in the middle east recently, crude oil prices increasing significantly in the past month.

Of course, you have no control over energy and fuel, but you do have levers over public transport that is affordable and dependable for the people of Wales. How do you intend to respond to what is happening on the international stage, as a matter of urgency, and does this change any plans that you currently have? Thank you very much.

Well, can I thank the Member for his questions? This relates, in part, to questions raised already by Cefin Campbell and Jane Dodds, in that there are capacity issues in some parts of Wales, and we do need to meet that demand in order to ensure that the travelling public are not left stranded, but also to make sure that we're maximising the farebox, which, in turn, can be reinvested in areas of Wales that do not have the sort of frequent services that more urban areas often benefit from. So, we are trying our utmost, through the acquisition of new trains, to deal with capacity issues on the rail network, and in so doing, drive up the amount of revenue that we're raising through rail.

With regard to bus services, the bus Bill will address some of the concerns around capacity. It will also address concerns around networks not meeting the public's needs. Also, we have schemes such as the £1 fare cap that will come in soon, which I think will be of significant benefit for those who are often furthest from the workplace—literally the furthest from the workplace, and furthest in terms of being able to access decent job interviews, never mind the jobs themselves.

The mantra of the new chair of Transport for Wales is to offer safe, reliable and regular services, whether that be by bus or by rail. I know that he will be working with the board and with the executive to ensure that we provide that, not just on our rail services, but also on our bus services.

In terms of energy, the Member is absolutely right. Geopolitical instability has contributed to rising costs. That's having to be absorbed by operators at this moment in time. It's why the £600 million that the Welsh Government is investing over this Senedd term in bus services is so vitally important, because it provides a degree of protection against those fluctuations in energy prices and fuel prices.

The move towards electrification is an exciting move because it has the potential to decarbonise, quite considerably, the transport fleet. But it also means that we have to embrace the most advanced technology. And there are huge technological strides that are taking place at the moment. I think that it's important that we take stock of which are most futureproofed. But Transport for Wales is looking at being a purchaser of new electric buses, and it can then act as the organisation that will lease them to operators across Wales under the new legislation.

We're continuing to invest in a range of improvements to public transport services across south-west Wales. This includes the deployment of new trains, improvements to the accessibility of stations, and our plans for bus franchising, which will begin first in south-west Wales.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that answer. You'll be aware that I've written and corresponded with you with regard to the South Pembrokeshire Rail Action Group—SPRAG, as they're known—who are campaigning for hourly services between Pembroke Dock, the end of the line, and Whitland, where the line splits, to increase the capacity on the rail line, but to improve the facilities there as well, making it more attractive for people to use the rail network across south Pembrokeshire. Now, I've met with them a number of times and support them in their calls. Would you join me in meeting with South Pembrokeshire Rail Action Group, in south Pembrokeshire, to discuss through their plans and how we can work collaboratively to develop a better strategic plan for rail users in south Pembrokeshire?

Yes, absolutely. It would be a delight to meet with the members of SPRAG to discuss the opportunities that could come through further investment. I think, if I may, would it be possible also to invite whoever is the lead official for transport within the corporate joint committee, because I think it's really important that we capture this proposal within the regional transport plan, and I think it's worth the region actually considering where it should sit in that list of priorities?

And finally, question—

Eight.

Question 8. Thank you. Carolyn Thomas.

North Wales metro is go, thanks to the exciting vision and the proposals of network north Wales. We're doubling rail services between Wrexham and Chester, delivering 50 per cent more services on the north Wales main line, and piloting a new T13 bus service connecting Rhyl, Ruthin and Denbigh.

I am pleased that the focus is now on north Wales. Reliable, accessible and affordable public transport is a huge priority for young, old and disabled people in north Wales. Public bus transport is also an important employee in north Wales.

At the weekend, I met with representatives from Guide Dogs for the Blind Association, and can I just welcome—? We've got Cathy here, who's here watching the proceedings today, along with her guide dog, Spencer. So, I'd just like to welcome her to the gallery and to this session.

I met with the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association, who have raised issues regarding accessibility, such as new bus stops being moved to a more difficult area, so they have to cross a car park, the dangers of cycle lanes as well, dividing pavements from bus stops. Do you agree that consultation with operators and disability organisations is really important when putting in these bus stops, shelters and other highway infrastructure, to ensure that passenger safety is taken care of and accounted for? And will you include this in the face of the Bill or under guidance going forward?

Can I thank Carolyn Thomas for her question, and also welcome Cathy and Spencer to the Senedd? I met with representatives of the RNIB at the weekend who conveyed similar concerns, and I've asked Transport for Wales to ensure that the access and inclusion panel are able to feed in their views, concerns and ideas at an early stage when it comes to the new standards that we're going to be introducing for bus stops.

The national bus stop standards work is already under way. The framework will guide the design, the installation, the maintenance of bus stop infrastructure across the country—a huge piece of work to ensure that we have a consistently high standard of bus stop provision across Wales. Transport for Wales is also currently auditing all bus stops on a regional basis across Wales. I believe we have in excess of 24,000 bus stops at this moment in time. TfW are auditing the entire lot as they're developing a forward work programme to prioritise bus stops for improvement, and we've asked them to ensure—to ensure—that they involve user groups in the location and the design of these improved facilities, particularly that they engage with people who have lived experience of accessibility barriers.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

The next item will be the questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip. The first question is from Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch yn fawr, Janet Finch-Saunders. The 'Youth Justice Blueprint for Wales' sets out our vision for youth justice in Wales, taking a children-first rights approach, working in a child-centred rather than service-focused way, and meeting the individual needs of children in the justice system or those who are at risk of coming into contact with it. 

Diolch. Across England and Wales, in the year ending March 2024, the number of proven offences committed by children saw a year-on-year increase, rising to around 35,600, with the number of custodial sentences increasing by 21 per cent to 660. Now, this was the first year-on-year increase in over a decade. Many areas across Wales, to include my own constituency of Aberconwy, have experienced a huge increase in anti-social behaviour by young people and criminal activity. This can affect our residents, our business owners and their customers, and it's an issue that needs to be urgently addressed.

Now, at a time when there has been an increase in violence in schools and shocking abuse directed at teachers, it is obvious that tougher action isn't just needed, it is now well overdue. So, will you, Cabinet Secretary, liaise with your colleagues in the UK Government, the youth justice system and probation services in Wales to ensure that those youths who are committing serious anti-social behaviour and criminal activity on a regular basis are apprehended and dealt with accordingly?

Thank you very much, Janet Finch-Saunders. You will recall that I made a statement last week about an update on the youth justice blueprint, and that's a blueprint which has a main aim, a single prevention framework for youth justice activity, which was published on 17 June. And we have such a wide range of evidence about what works to prevent children and young people coming into contact with the justice system, and a wide range of activity being delivered now in areas like youth work, education, substance misuse, health and support for families. It's good to see our youth service and youth work now restarting with support from Welsh Government.

But I just want to give you the facts, actually, Janet Finch-Saunders. Over the last 15 years, there's been a dramatic and sustained decline in the number of children offending and being brought into the formal criminal justice system in Wales. There's also been a significant reduction in the number of children receiving custodial outcomes, and I think that's a testament to the preventative and diversionary approaches well established by the youth justice services, and that growing adoption of what I described in answer to your question of child-first, evidence-based, effective partnership work.

Yes, of course, youth justice is not devolved, although we were seeking for its devolution, but only on Monday, I was able to meet the UK Government Minister for youth justice, Sir Nic Dakin, and talk about ways in which we can progress with the devolution of youth justice and learning from each other. Indeed, he is going to engage in the next meeting of our youth justice advisory board.

Cabinet Secretary, in that meeting with Sir Nic Dakin, did you seek the commitment, or was the commitment given, that youth justice would be delivered in this current Westminster term? Are you planning, as a Government, on that basis? Should political parties who are preparing their manifestos for the next Senedd election be doing so on the basis that youth justice and probation are going to be devolved by 2030, during the next Senedd term? 

Thank you very much, Adam Price. Of course, you will know that it was in the UK Government's manifesto. Now, we're a year on from the new Government coming into force in terms of youth justice. We've had several positive conversations with the UK Government on taking forward their manifesto commitments. It clearly was in our manifesto commitment as a Welsh Labour Government.

Our Deputy First Minister met the Lord Chancellor only last month. I met Sir Nic Dakin yesterday, and I discussed the devolution of youth justice, and we agreed that I would now engage with him—we're going to meet shortly—about the way forward. Because so much work has been done, it's not about making the case, it's preparing for the devolution of youth justice. We've now got a youth justice research programme, building on what we already know in terms of youth justice, the devolution of youth justice. So, I'm confident that we're going to see that this is going to be taken forward by the UK Government.

I'm grateful to you, and grateful for that response. It is, of course, a matter of absolute social justice that we move ahead quickly with the devolution of youth justice and other aspects of the criminal justice system and policing. This has been a part of the Welsh Government's programme for government for many years now. In fact, even as far back as my time in Government, we supported this.

Is it now time, Cabinet Secretary, that we set out clearly a programme for work that delivers the devolution of these matters and also, crucially, the programme for work where Welsh Government will deliver social justice for some of the most vulnerable people in Wales, and also justice for people who are suffering as a consequence of the failures of the current system? That now must be a priority, both for this Government and the UK Government: to move quickly to deliver on the ambitions that we have for Wales.

Thank you very much, Alun Davies, and thank you for your consistent support, based on evidence, and that's where it started—based on evidence that we know that devolving youth justice makes sense operationally, as well as the fact that we know it is powers for a purpose, isn't it? Because it will prove to be the best way in which we can deliver justice, and it is justice for our communities as well as for our young people. And I think that's where we return to the work that's been very well laid out in our youth justice blueprint, which was, actually, working with the Ministry of Justice and Welsh Government, a distinct approach in Wales to justice services, recognised by UK Government already, but actually UK Government can learn from the way that we've worked in Wales. So, it's not a matter of exploring; it's a matter of preparing for that devolution of youth justice.

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much, Vaughan Gething. This is a dreadful miscarriage of justice, and we've got every sympathy—I have every sympathy—with those wrongly accused. The 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', launched in 2022, calls for zero tolerance of all racial inequality and describes how we are working together with partners to tackle racism across the justice system.

Thank you. The 'Cardiff five' miscarriage of justice is a notorious case. It saw three innocent men convicted of the horrific murder of Lynette White in 1988, whilst two other men also had their lives blighted, despite not being convicted. Two women and one man, who were coerced by the police into lying to help secure the convictions, were later convicted of perjury. No police officer has ever been disciplined, and the trial of former officers collapsed in 2011. All five men who were charged were black, but the real killer, Jeffrey Gafoor, is white.

The case still has meaning, especially within Butetown, which I was privileged to represent as a councillor before being elected to serve Butetown in this Senedd. This, though, has been re-highlighted by the not-too-distant decision of the Parole Board to release the convicted murderer without briefing the 'Cardiff five' families or the local community in Butetown in advance.

Next Thursday, I'll host a book signing event in the Senedd for the book The Boy from Tiger Bay with the author Ceri Jackson and John Actie, one of the 'Cardiff five'. The book largely describes events through John's eyes. I will write to you, but my question is whether you'd support the call for a judge-led process to review the events leading up to, and the continuing impact beyond, this miscarriage of justice, including the lasting impact upon the community that I represent.

Thank you very much, Vaughan Gething, and thank you for reminding us again today of this dreadful miscarriage of justice, and I'm sure and I hope that Members from across the Senedd will be able to attend and join in and support that book launch next week, The Boy from Tiger Bay, and also just recognising, I think, as the falsely accused, the wrongly accused, those five black men who were wrongly accused and falsely accused, despite, as you say, that, in fact, the real killer, Jeffrey Gafoor, was caught. I also, just to say, pay tribute to John Actie for the way that he has come forward and said this is something that's still living with him. And you've mentioned the still very strong meaning in Butetown, in the community that you've represented for so many years, as a councillor and Senedd Member. So, I look forward to receiving your letter.

I think it's really important, the fact that we need to look at the criminal justice system now, and recognise that we have a criminal justice anti-racism action plan for Wales. Criminal justice isn't devolved—it's reserved—although we have a case for devolution of criminal justice clearly made. I look forward to receiving your letter, and, of course, again, adding my support to the launch of that book next week.

I'm grateful for Vaughan Gething's very important question. It's important we hear this in the Senedd—something that happened not far from this very building. Unfortunately, this wasn't the only miscarriage of justice involving people of colour in Cardiff. Mahmood Mattan lost his life. In another case, known as the 'Cardiff newsagent three', Michael O'Brien spent 11 years and 43 days behind bars for a murder he never committed—nine years longer even than the 'Cardiff five'. Following his release, the Ministry of Justice deducted £37,500 from his compensation for bed and board. During his time in prison, Trefnydd, his father died, his daughter died; he went to their funerals with a police armed escort and wearing double handcuffs. That's what happened to him. A Labour Government at Westminster, headed by Michael O'Brien's former barrister, is still refusing to return that money. A man who used to fight for justice is now refusing to deliver justice once he's gained power. Will you agree with me, Trefnydd, that the refusal to return money rightfully owed to people like Michael O'Brien is a real disgrace, and what representation will you give to your partners in power in Westminster for the return of that money? Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you again. It is important that, here, we have aired further, and you've also brought to our attention and well understood, other miscarriages of justice. Again, I would urge you to write to me, particularly in relation to Michael O'Brien. I do—. As I said, it's not devolved, but we do have a Criminal Justice Board for Wales, which does provide oversight of the delivery, for example, of our criminal justice anti-racism action plan, and we need to see that progress is being made and outcomes improve. But this has to be about historical injustices as well, so thank you for raising that, and please draw that further, in writing, to my attention.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservatives spokesperson, Altaf Hussain.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, last week, the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children reported that they had received a record level of calls about children at risk of domestic abuse. The NSPCC said around a third of child welfare contacts about domestic abuse ended in a referral to authorities, such as police and children's social services. I welcome the work of the NSPCC. However, it is concerning that a charity is doing more to protect children from domestic abuse than the statutory services whose job it is. Cabinet Secretary, how will the Welsh Government ensure that children's social services are protecting children from domestic abuse?

Thank you very much for that question, Altaf Hussain. In fact, last week, we had a meeting of the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence national partnership board, and, indeed, the main subject, the main theme, of that meeting was children at risk of domestic abuse, or the impact of violence on children in relation to domestic abuse. It was very fortunate on that occasion that we had Jess Phillips, the Minister from the UK Government, who joined us, and indeed, the domestic abuse commissioner, Nicole Jacobs, for England and Wales, joined us as well.

But the work stream—. We have a work stream on children and young people as part of the national strategy. We had feedback on the work that’s been undertaken. So, it’s been driven by the Welsh Government, at a national level, to ensure delivery at a local level as well. And that is done regionally, locally, and with our specialist services, not just NSPCC, which plays a vital role, but alongside specialist services from Welsh Women’s Aid, the Black Association of Women Step Out, Llamau and other organisations.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Of course, it's not just local authorities who are failing domestic abuse victims. Last week, we also saw the release of a police effectiveness, efficiency and legitimacy inspection report on Gwent Police. His Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue Services found that the force needs to improve how promptly it attends 999 calls, in particular those involving domestic abuse victims, and make sure it updates callers on delays to officers attending. The inspectorate stated that Gwent Police do not have a clear understanding of why it takes the force longer to attend domestic abuse-related incidents than other incidents. Cabinet Secretary, I'm sure you're as concerned as I am over the force's failings. Therefore, what discussions have you had with the police and crime commissioner, and the Home Secretary, about the steps needed to ensure Gwent Police can protect domestic abuse victims?

Diolch yn fawr, Altaf Hussain. You raise a really important point in terms of the partnership, the partnership to tackle violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. It has to be a partnership of emergency services. I co-chair the national partnership board with PCC Emma Wools, but also the Gwent PCC, Jane Mudd, and indeed her deputy, Eleri Thomas, who is actually the senior responsible officer for delivering on our partnership strategy—all part of our national drive to tackle these issues. So, yes, concern about the inspector’s report. This is where I work cross-Government with Jayne Bryant, who is responsible for fire and rescue services particularly. But this is something that I’m grateful you’ve brought attention to today, to air and share that public concern that we have for making sure that all our emergency services respond as they have to do in terms of statutory duty, as well as clear responsibilities.

Thank you again, Cabinet Secretary. While sticking to the topic of domestic abuse, I want to pivot slightly to focus on male adults fleeing domestic violence. I have spoken to you previously about Jonathan’s House Ministries, and the work they’re doing with male victims. They raised with me concerns about the rail to refuge and road to rescue schemes. Currently, the schemes require a referral from a domestic abuse helpline. Cabinet Secretary, will you look at ways of ensuring that everyone who needs it has access to free public transport to a refuge, and allow the refuge to refer victims to the schemes, rather than relying on national helplines?

Thank you for raising that important point, and I have answered questions before. I’ve also responded to queries about the support we give to services like the Dyn helpline, for example. But Jonathan’s House is something where we need to look at the evidence and understand barriers to providing support. So, thank you again, and I will follow that up.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams. 

The disrespect shown for disabled people in Wales throughout the UK Labour Government's shambolic, incoherent, chaotic, immoral approach to welfare reform has been breathtaking and unforgivable. Does the Welsh Government agree with Disability Rights UK that the UK Government passing this disastrous Bill shows deep disdain for disabled people, and also with Disability Wales's view that this Bill is unsafe?

Thank you very much for raising that question, Sioned Williams. You know and you will have seen the letter that I wrote last week to the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, to Liz Kendall, outlining our concerns, concerns based on the evidence of how disabled people in Wales would be affected—nearly 200,000 would be affected by those PIP changes that had been proposed. I think one of the most important points I made in that letter was that there should be no changes made before a review of the personal independence payment regime, including the criteria for access to personal independence payments. That came about as a result of our engagement with disabled people in Wales, as a result of meeting with the disability equality forum, the chairs of the disability rights taskforce, which helped give evidence in terms of case studies that came forward on the concerns and adverse impacts of the proposals as they were shaped at that time by the UK Government. So, I welcome the fact now that we have concessions, which were reflected in the Bill that finally went through last night. They did reflect on our call in my letter last Tuesday for the PIP review to take place before any changes were made. That's now laid down in statute, and a commitment to co-production with disabled people. I met with Stephen Timms on Sunday and invited him to Wales to meet our disabled people, to meet our disability equality forum representatives, and taskforce representatives, to engage with us here in Wales, with disabled people, to work on the co-production of this review.

Yes, you said in that letter to Liz Kendall that you believed a review of PIP should take place, co-produced, as you say, with disabled people, before any changes to support are introduced. So, do you support the cuts for new claimants of the universal credit health payment, which are still included in the Bill passed last night and have not been consulted on? For new claims from next April, the rate of the universal credit health element will be reduced by more than £2,400 a year, with nearly all new claimants hit, and new claimants under the age of 22 also may not be eligible. An estimated 0.75 million people are expected to be impacted by these changes to the health element of universal credit. You've repeatedly insisted the UK Government has listened to your concerns, which included the lack of an impact assessment on these reforms. So, what assessment have you received or carried out on the impact of the universal credit cuts on Wales?

I think one of the main points that I raised not only in my letter, but also when I met with Sir Stephen Timms on Sunday, who is the Minister who is taking forward the PIP review, was the fact that we didn't have an impact assessment for Wales. We were dependent on—. Yes, we did have evidence of data, but we didn't have a Wales-focused impact assessment. I called for that, and asked again when I met with him that we should move towards Wales-focused impact assessments, because then, of course, we can look clearly, with that evidence, at what the impacts of all the changes would be. I hope now, because of the changes that were made by the UK Government, that this is an opportunity to look at all of the impacts of the changes proposed and that are now being taken forward in legislation.

Of course, there were some important new developments as a result of the Green Paper that really got lost—for example, the further funding that's been made available to help with return to work, the fact that that's going to be for disabled people, if that is what they wish and are able to do, to return to employment, but also, tackling things like the delays to Access to Work, and to have the opportunity for a right to try, which, of course, is something that we've been calling for for a long time—a right to try to return to work. Then, if it isn't going to work out, they will not be reassessed or not be disadvantaged, which is actually what came through as an important reassurance yesterday as a result of the change. So, I think now we have to make sure that we get that Wales focus and that we also get disabled people in Wales to take the lead, because co-production has been promised by the UK Government.

It's good to hear that you asked again—yet again—for that Wales impact assessment. So, did you get a commitment on that? I didn't hear you say whether you got a commitment on it or not. And there's still confusion, isn't there, about what the promise to remove that tighter PIP eligibility from the Bill really means in practice, whether MPs would get a say over any changes resulting from the Timms review, as there's been no guarantee to put the review's recommendations in primary legislation. So, can you confirm what information Stephen Timms shared with you on Sunday about the new plan for the review, which was revealed in such a chaotic and last-minute way yesterday with no consultation? Will you be seeking guarantees, for instance, that disabled people in Wales, now and in the future, won't be worse off as a result of the review?

We've got a real opportunity, haven't we, now for disabled people in Wales to influence the way forward. Clause 5 was removed, withdrawn from the Bill. It was recognised by the Minister for Social Security and Disability, Sir Stephen Timms, that MPs from all parties raised significant concerns about the proposed changes to the PIP eligibility criteria. We now have an opportunity to influence the way forward with disabled people. I hope that's something where we can grasp that opportunity. We have that influence, in terms of Government-to-Government working, and I'm looking forward—. I've invited Sir Stephen Timms to come to Wales and to meet with disabled people, and for us to move forward in a constructive way.

Thank you for that question. We're committed to tackling rural crime effectively, and a key part of our co-ordinated approach is the new, revised Wales wildlife and rural crime strategy, which will be launched in July. This strategy aims to further enhance collaboration between the police, partner agencies and farmers to reduce rural crime.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. You say that strategy will be launched in July. We are now in July, so an update on that would be helpful. But you'll be aware that I raised this with you in your role as Trefnydd a couple of weeks ago because of the damning statistics that show that, while rural crime has fallen in Scotland and England, here in Wales we've seen a rise. And in constituencies like mine, we've seen more than 60 stolen quad bikes through the Dyfed-Powys Police area in 2024, and one Carmarthenshire farmer lost 75 sheep in a single raid. We've seen an 18 per cent cost increase, at a cost of £2.8 million. So, some more information on the strategy that you outlined, some information as to when in this month it will be launched—. And what further work are you doing with Rob Taylor, the rural crime commissioner, to ensure that there's long-term funding for him to maintain his role in co-ordinating as the co-ordinator? Thank you very much. 

Thank you very much, Sam Kurtz, for that supplementary question. You'll know that this responsibility for tackling rural crime lies within the portfolio of Huw Irranca-Davies, the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs. We welcome the NFU Mutual report, and I can assure you that the Government will continue to fund the Wales wildlife and rural crime co-ordinator until the summer of 2028, and it's actually that extended support that I am sure you will welcome. The strategy is going to be launched jointly with the police on Thursday 10 July.

Thank you for the question. We continue to support foodbanks across Wales. The local authorities in South Wales East have received £311,410 of funding this year to support community food organisations in overcoming barriers to accessing, storing and distributing increased quantities of food, including good food surplus, to those who need it most.

Thank you for that. This is an issue that's so important to so many families in the area and across Wales. Foodbanks in our area are struggling. Donations have decreased in recent months because of the cost of living and, leading up to the school holidays especially, many families are worried. Risca foodbank have told me that because there are no free school meals during the holidays, lots of families in the area don't know how they're going to manage. Not all children look forward without qualification to the holidays. Not all families can cope. Now, this particular foodbank is having to purchase extra food in anticipation of those pressures. Often, foodbanks have phone calls from local schools asking for help, because children already are coming in on a Monday morning not having eaten properly all weekend. That's before the holidays start. Can more Government support be given to these foodbanks to make sure that, all through the summer, hungry children are fed?

Thank you for that important question. I've recently met with the Trussell Trust and I know Members are closely in touch with them. I share their vision for a Wales where foodbanks are no longer needed, and I know that's been shared across the Senedd. Of course, that links to our child poverty strategy and how we can target those in most need, and make sure that this targeting particularly supports children in or at risk of poverty. This is something where our funding going directly to local authorities and foodbanks is important in terms of supporting emergency food provision.

I just want to draw attention, in the summer holidays, to the expanded funding for our food and fitness strategy through local authorities. We make this available and it is expanded this summer. Also, I would again continue to encourage you, in terms of your contact with constituents, to point them to the 'Claim what's yours' single advice fund. We've helped, in South Wales East, more than 124,000 people from disadvantaged communities to claim an additional income of £64.5 million. We must make sure that our families across Wales, particularly families with children and families at risk, can claim every penny and pound that they're entitled to, and reach out to the food and fitness programme in the school holidays.

Thank you very much, Paul Davies. Third Sector Support Wales will receive core funding of £8.6 million in 2025-26 to provide an infrastructure of support to the third sector across Wales. Two hundred and eighteen thousand pounds of this will go to Pembrokeshire Association of Voluntary Services to help local voluntary organisations with fundraising, good governance, safeguarding and volunteering.

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. Later this week, I'll be attending an open day at the Hope MS Therapy Centre in Neyland in my constituency. The centre offers oxygen therapy, physical rehabilitation and vital social support for people with long-term conditions like cancer, motor neurone disease and long COVID. I'm sure you can appreciate just how much of a lifeline the centre is to so many people in Pembrokeshire and, indeed, beyond. Now, the centre has been providing support and services for almost 40 years, and I want to put on record my thanks to everyone involved with the centre for the important work that they've done over the years, and still do to support service users. Therefore, will you join me, Cabinet Secretary, in recognising the exceptional work of the Hope MS Therapy Centre in Neyland, which has been transforming lives for almost 40 years? And will you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to support charities like this, so that they can continue to provide much needed therapies and services in the community in the future?

Thank you very much, and can you give my good wishes to the Hope MS Therapy Centre in Neyland on Friday and thank them for their continued dedication, support and services they provide to so many in your community? And I just wanted to refer to the fact that, this morning, I was pleased to attend the gofod3 third sector conference. It was the biggest they've ever had. There were over 1,000 people there, and I was pleased to launch the new vision for volunteering in Wales, because many of those who support the Hope centre will be volunteers as well as paid workers, and to look also to reflect on our new code of practice for funding, which, of course, draws in not just Welsh Government funding for longer term three-year funding, but also local authorities, health bodies and other public bodies who support these valuable organisations.

Diolch yn fawr, Alun Davies. Tackling child poverty is a top priority for the Welsh Government. We're using all the levers available to us to do this. Since 2022, we have invested over £7 billion to support families across Wales, including Blaenau Gwent, to help maximise household income and develop pathways out of poverty.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Why is it always the poorest and the most vulnerable people who have to suffer and are targeted when the Treasury needs to save money? Why is it always people who should be receiving the support of Government who are the subject of these cuts? I welcome the work that you've done, Cabinet Secretary, and I welcome the stance that's been taken by the Welsh Government in making it absolutely clear that the Welsh Government will always stand with and support people who are in poverty and people with disabilities who need the support of our whole community, and I very much welcome the statements you've made in recent days on this matter.

But it appears to me that it is time now that the Welsh Government looked at bringing together many of the programmes that we do have to address issues of poverty amongst different people in our society to provide a more comprehensive approach to dealing with poverty in some of our most fragile communities. Is it not time that the Welsh Government took control of the wider welfare agenda to ensure that we don't have the unseemly discussions that we've witnessed over recent days, but what we do have is a clear-sighted determination that, in Wales, we will always protect the poorest people, and that this Government and this Parliament will always seek to ensure that poor and vulnerable people are at the heart of what we seek to achieve?

Thank you very much for that very powerful question, Alun Davies. I say thank you for acknowledging the stance of Welsh Government in terms of standing up for and representing some of the poorest people in Wales. But I do think we stand a better chance of developing a compassionate social security system by influencing, working with and influencing, the UK Government. I think this is where I would say we're now exploring, for example, the devolution of the administration of welfare, because obviously this could enable us to align some of our non-devolved social security services and payments to people in Wales with more person-centred commitments, such as we have with the Welsh benefits charter.

But can I just make one point here to say again that I continue to call for a commitment to end the two-child benefit rule? This is something where I have consistently made this point, that we can bring more children out of poverty in Wales if that two-child benefit rule was stopped, and I think this is something that we continuously need to say, and I'm glad to have the chance to say it again this afternoon as a result of your question.

Cabinet Secretary, three constituencies in my region of South Wales East have some of the highest rates of child poverty in the country. They are Blaenau Gwent, Newport East, Merthyr Tydfil and Aberdare. According to research by Loughborough University, 36 per cent of children in Blaenau Gwent, 35 per cent of children in Newport East, and 34 per cent of children in Merthyr Tydfil and Aberdare are living in poverty. These are shocking figures by my standards and come after the Joseph Rowntree Foundation warned that child poverty in Wales is set to hit and reach its highest rate in 30 years by the end of the decade. The study also claims that there has been little progress in reducing poverty in Wales over the last two decades. Dr Victoria Winckler, director of the Bevan Foundation said, and I quote,

'The steps taken by the Welsh Government to alleviate poverty are welcome, but there is much more to do.'

So, Cabinet Secretary, do you accept that the steps taken by the Welsh Government so far have indeed failed? I appreciate what you said previously to the Member for Blaenau Gwent in your answer to him, however, those did indeed relate to issues concerning the UK Government. So, it's clear the Welsh Government here needs to change tack, so how will you be doing that exactly? Thank you.

Well, I do find it very hard to respond to that question when the people of Wales, and particularly the most disadvantaged, have suffered 14 years of austerity. I find it very hard—

And 26 years of you. That has nothing to do with that.

And if you speak to any organisation, any research and academic evidence, 14 years of austerity, the cuts to welfare reform—. The two-child limit came in from the Conservative Government. And actually I have heard, over the last 24 hours and previously, Conservative politicians in London saying that they're concerned about the changes that have happened, as a result of representations, on evidence, because not enough money is being saved from welfare and that they would move further to cut welfare, if they were in power. And I've heard that said by UK Government Ministers.

Now, I appreciate your concern here today to raise these issues, and I think that we're doing, as I said to Alun Davies, everything we can within our powers, but we're looking at our powers and whether we need further powers. But I do say that the child poverty strategy did set out our ambitions for the longer term and to maximise the impact of those levers that we have available. Now, I will be doing a progress report on our child poverty strategy in the autumn.

But can I finally say, 'Yes, please encourage all your constituents to claim what's theirs'? Please look at the Welsh benefits charter and see whether your local authorities are managing to bring all those routes together, simplifying access to free school meals, the council tax reduction scheme and the school essentials grant. That's what we're expecting of them. That helps our families to access the benefits they're entitled to. Also, can I again welcome the fact—and thanks to our co-operation agreement as well, with Plaid Cymru—that we're the first UK nation to offer free school meals to all primary school learners? There are 174,500 primary school children benefiting. So, we are making progress. We best make progress when we work together on these issues.

Thank you, Darren Millar. The Welsh Government works closely with our faith communities through the faith communities forum. We are committed to promoting mutual understanding, supporting interfaith dialogue and fostering community cohesion as part of our broader efforts to strengthen the social fabric of Wales.

I don't doubt your personal commitment to our faith communities, Cabinet Secretary, but our Jewish community at the moment in Wales is feeling very, very let down by the Welsh Government. Yesterday, I asked the First Minister whether she supported the UK Government's decision to proscribe the Palestine Action group under anti-terror laws. She failed to answer the question. I asked her whether she would condemn the artists responsible for the vile hate-filled chants and antisemitism at Glastonbury. She failed to answer that too. I asked for assurances that no further taxpayers' money would be given to the Green Man Festival unless they withdrew their invitation to the violence-inciting rap group Kneecap. She failed to answer that question too.

And yesterday, just outside this building, we saw a protest at which hate-filled chants were repeated by protesters after they were shouted and screamed down a megaphone by a speaker. And that, of course, was a protest attended by Plaid Cymru and Labour Members of this Senedd. [Interruption.] They are rightfully—[Interruption.] They are rightfully being investigated by the police.

Will you, on behalf of the Welsh Government today, Cabinet Secretary, answer the questions that the First Minister failed to answer yesterday? And what assurances can you provide to the Jewish community in Wales that you are determined to stamp out antisemitism in every part of our country?

Before you answer, Cabinet Secretary, I just want to clarify: from what I understand, there are no Members of this Senedd being investigated by the police. Thank you.

No. They're investigating the chants.

Thank you.

May I make a point of order?

After the Cabinet Secretary's finished her comments, okay?

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I mean, it's quite clear that the Welsh Government stands with Jewish and Muslim communities, and we condemn any vile hatred expressed by individuals who seek to create a climate of fear and aim to fragment our communities. That's why we have a faith communities forum, so that we can come together, and we do come together. And I think, across this Chamber, I do believe, in terms of us, you know, addressing this issue, we know that hate is divisive and it's not acceptable in any way that it is expressed. So, it is important that we're careful in the way that we speak and learn from each other on this issue.

I think it's important that we recognise that both antisemitism and Islamophobia—and I want to just bring that into the discourse as well—both are forms of unacceptable, prejudice-related bullying and have no place in any part of our society. And this is really important for our children and young people, isn't it? Because we provide guidance and support to schools.

Now, I'm very conscious of the fact that we're implementing an 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', we're a nation of sanctuary and there is a great deal of, sadly, racism still in our society that we have to address. So, let's please move on from this, enable people to express their concerns and their opinions and look to the positives of the faith communities forum and the statements that I've made over the last few days about the plight of people in the middle east, particularly those in terms of the Palestinians and what they've been suffering and experiencing. But our commitment to antisemitism is absolutely clear.

Jenny Rathbone, point of order.

Thank you. On a point of order, I just want to point out to the Conservative leader that Members of all three parties of more than one Member went to talk to the demonstrators yesterday and it's absolutely right that they do so. We cannot simply exclude ourselves from talking to people because we may or may not disagree with them, and we have to recognise the appalling situation that we have in the middle east, particularly in Gaza.

I'm not convinced that's a point of order, but it does express a view you hold. And can I just highlight something before I take any more—? I'm aware that the matter has been referred to the police for investigation and it would therefore be inappropriate for me to comment any further on this, and I would urge all Members to exercise caution in this matter.

May I make a point of order? Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I would ask the leader of the opposition to correct the Record in the fact that no Member of this Senedd is being investigated by the police. We need that clarity. If you look back at the Record, it is not clear, and I would appreciate if he could retract that comment, apologise and correct the Record.

I'm sure the Member for—well, actually, the leader of the Conservatives—will actually openly confirm that there is no reference to any Member of the Senedd being investigated.

Absolutely.

And you confirm that?

Absolutely.

Why did you say it, then?

Why did you say it?

I said that the events yesterday were being investigated.

Yes, you knew exactly what you were doing.

No, that's not what you said.

The Member has made it clear that he is not referring to any Member of the Senedd being investigated.

The insinuation was clear.

Finally, question 8, Julie Morgan.

Thank you, Julie Morgan. We continue to work with disabled people to make Wales a better place to live. The draft disabled people's rights plan seeks to create lasting positive change, putting the social model of disability at the heart of our ambition for Wales.

Thank you for that response.

I'm very pleased that the Welsh Government are consulting on the disabled people's rights plan to create a society that is fully accessible, but to achieve that, I think it's also very important to engage with private businesses.

I've heard from one constituent, a university student, who has a hidden disability and has experienced significant problems accessing disabled toilets, especially when he's out with his friends in the city centre at night. He's had particular problems with McDonald's in Cardiff city centre, despite him showing staff a proof of disability card on his phone, and I think that this is completely unacceptable. He has also said that he's been refused access to toilets in other bars and restaurants, despite him explaining to staff that he has a disability. So, this means that my constituent is now reluctant to go out into town with his friends and enjoy himself just like any other young person as he doesn't know if he'll have access to a toilet.

So, what engagement has the Cabinet Secretary had with businesses in Wales to ensure that disabled people's needs are being met?

Thank you very much, Julie Morgan. You drew attention to the disabled people's rights plan, as I did. I thank the disabled people who were actively involved in co-producing that plan and who are now consulting on the plan so that we can get it right, and I thank the Members who attended the consultation event last week. What you've drawn to our attention is totally unacceptable, and it just shows that the social model of disability, which is about the disabling barriers of society, it has to be said, can be in the public realm, it can be from public services, it can be statutory services, but also in the private sector. The appalling treatment at McDonald's and the lack of understanding and provision of toilets for use should be shown up, as you have done today.

Just to say, of course, that local authorities are legally required to produce local toilet strategies. McDonald's functions not just in Cardiff but across Wales and the world, so they need to take notice of what you have brought to our attention today. We need to ensure that there are accessible local toilet facilities and that disabled people, of course, are engaged, as they have been so positively and constructively, for example, in the development of Cardiff bus station. I went recently to Cardiff bus station with Guide Dogs Cymru and saw the influence they've had on the design of a new bus station with accessible toilets, and to show what can be done in terms of building regulations and changing places if they're properly implemented.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

Item 3 is questions to the Senedd Commission. Both questions will be answered by the Llywydd.

Our communications and engagement strategy aims to increase awareness and understanding of the Senedd and to encourage people to participate in our work. Ensuring that information is clear and easily accessible online is a key part of this. We offer online tours of the Senedd, as well as virtual education sessions, and Senedd committees establish online focus groups to discuss their inquiries and to inform their work. We are reviewing our website in preparation for the seventh Senedd, and this includes making it more user-friendly and more accessible for the public.

Thank you for that response, Llywydd.

That's welcome news about reviewing it ahead of the seventh Senedd, because I raised this point after it had been raised with me by a constituent about making it more accessible. I think, sometimes, with the current site, you probably need to know how to navigate the system to get to where you need to be to see votes and things like that. So, I think there's a real opportunity ahead of the seventh Senedd to redevelop and enhance our online platform, whether that's around voting, what devolution is about, or how people can get more involved. Can you share any more information today about actually how that can be done in time for the seventh Senedd? Thank you.

I can share no more information other than to say it's happening and we're committed to undertaking that review and putting in place improvements that quite clearly need to be there for the seventh Senedd, and to give all Members here the opportunity to share any views that they have on how they would like to see changes, and what they think in particular should be the priorities for change, so that our democracy online can be more accessible and more user-friendly for all concerned. I struggle myself, sometimes, to find exactly what I think I'm looking for online. That may be me, but sometimes we need to make sure that it's as accessible as possible. So, it's an invitation to all to contribute to that process where you identify improvements that can be made. Make sure that you let me know, and I'll let the IT people know, who are the experts, to make these things happen.

A record of all votes held during Senedd proceedings is published in line with requirements set out in Standing Orders and relevant legislation. For both Plenary and committee proceedings, a detailed record of all votes, including details of how each Member has voted, is published as part of the Record of Proceedings. In addition, a vote summary is published on the public website for each Plenary meeting, usually within 30 minutes of the conclusion of each meeting. This details how each Member voted and their political affiliation, as well as any proxy vote in operation. 

Thank you for that response, Llywydd. 

I've become increasingly aware that the voting record of Senedd Members is particularly hard to find navigating the Senedd website, and I've heard from constituents who weren't even aware that voting records could be accessed. To access Senedd voting records, you have to find the particular Plenary agenda for that day's proceedings, which isn't easy to find for somebody not already acquainted with the Senedd website, and there's a tiny button that allows you to download the voting summary as a rather antiquated spreadsheet, which shows how Members voted on each item. The UK Parliament, however, has a dedicated page for voting records, which allows users to search by title and date to find a particular item, whether a debate or an amendment to a Bill. They can see which Members voted 'aye' or 'no' and who abstained, and the site is very user-friendly and easy to use. 

Of course, in the interests of transparency, everyone has a right to see how their elected representative votes on a particular matter, and currently the Senedd website makes this somewhat inaccessible to the public and could potentially impact the transparency of the Senedd as a legislative body. So, what discussions have the Commission had regarding the accessibility of voting records through the Senedd's website, and are there any plans to improve transparency by enhancing the accessibility of these records, similar to the UK Parliament?

I think that we have a common theme appearing in these two questions, and that's around accessibility to our website and to information that's held there. The information is there, it's published, but it is about the accessibility and user-friendliness of that website.

As I said in my response to Hannah Blythyn, we are doing work in preparing for the seventh Senedd to make the website more user-friendly. One of the concerns that has been raised, and it was highlighted by your contribution there, Gareth, is that the search facility on our voting record is one that doesn't bear comparison with some other Parliaments, and we need to think through how we are able to allow more forensic searching of voting records of Members here. And now that Members have asked for it, I'll make sure that I ask for that in the work that is being undertaken to improve the accessibility.

I'd say, of course, Members, beware what you wish for. The search facility on voting records is a very good thing for democracy, but you might not always like what that search facility will throw up in the future on any Member's individual voting records. But that's for the people to own that information. We need, as I've said and agreed to, to make that information more readily accessible to the people of Wales and more user-friendly. So, thank you for the questions.

Thank you, Llywydd.

No topical questions were received today. 

We move immediately to item 5, the 90-second statements. There's only one today, and I call on Heledd Fychan. 

Saturday was a wonderful day in Pontypridd as more than 300 people converged there to compete in the town’s first ever local eisteddfod. I was delighted to be a member of the audience listening to a host of performances throughout the day, and this is also an opportunity to share with you how special the day was, and also to thank everyone who helped to organise the event.

We all, I’m sure, will remember the huge success of last year’s Rhondda Cynon Taf National Eisteddfod in Pontypridd last year, and it's good to see this local eisteddfod building on that success, as the local community came together to celebrate the wealth of talent and culture in the area. From the choirs to the soloists, from the literary submissions to the battle of the bands, it was wonderful that the eisteddfod gave a platform for so many to share their talents. It was also great to see so many Welsh learners competing and so many non-Welsh speakers coming to enjoy the event.

Of course, such an event would not have been possible were it not for the hard work and dedication of the organisers, the volunteers and sponsors. Heartfelt thanks to everyone who contributed to the event, including Capel y Bont and Clwb y Bont for the excellent venues they provided. It was also wonderful to see all of their hard work paying dividends, with full venues all day. Many of the competitors and supporters also enjoyed the cafes, the market, restaurants and pubs in the town, giving an important boost to local businesses. 

Local eisteddfods across Wales are so important for the future of Welsh as a living language in our communities, and as a language for everyone to enjoy, and I very much hope, therefore, that we see Eisteddfod Pontypridd continuing in future. There can be no doubt that there is a place and a welcome for the eisteddfod in the annual calendar of eisteddfods in Wales, and there's an appetite for more in Pontypridd.

Diolch, Heledd.

Item 6 is a debate on on the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee report, 'Holyhead Port storm damage and closure: Initial findings'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Andrew R.T. Davies.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I move the motion in my name on the order paper this afternoon. As Members would be aware, on 6 and 7 December, two berthing incidents occurred at Holyhead port terminal 3, involving Irish Ferries. The damage from these incidents led to the port's full closure over the busy and important Christmas period. On 16 January, the port reopened, with both Stena and Irish Ferries sailing an amended timetable from terminal 5. However, terminal 3 is yet to open. The fact, Deputy Presiding Officer, I requested to hold this debate today was to coincide with the full reopening of the port. However, last week, we heard the full reopening had been delayed until at least 15 July.

On 6 March, the committee held a session looking at the port's closure. Specifically, we focused on the cause, communications, remediation and impact. We took evidence from a number of key witnesses, including the port operator, representatives of the port users, and the Welsh Government. The report made six recommendations and drew five conclusions. We are disappointed to say that the Welsh Government did not fully accept any of our recommendations, rejecting three and only partially accepting the other three.

Deputy Presiding Officer, we are also disappointed by the Welsh Government's immediate statement released in response to our report. As a long-standing Member of this institution, I have seen many committee reports and responses. I do not recall seeing another response that was so strongly critical of a committee in the way the Welsh Government did. I would like to remind the Cabinet Secretary that committees do not work in a vacuum. We did not sit in a dark room and consider what we should come up with. No, we took the inquiry seriously. We based our report on robust evidence. We spoke to key people from the port, people who represented the haulage industry, local businesses, the local authority, an independent expert witness, and, of course, Welsh Ministers themselves. We listened to what they had to say. We heard their experience and used this information to make important recommendations and conclusions, so that if something like this happened again Wales can be better prepared.

One of the things that surprised us whilst we were gathering evidence was that none of the witnesses asked could clearly identify who in the Welsh Government, ultimately, was leading the Welsh Government's response. A strong command-and-control structure, with clear leadership, is important when responding to an incident. This is why we recommended that, in any future instances of this scale and complexity, the Welsh Government should agree a ministerial lead who will oversee and be held accountable for the management response. We were surprised to see this recommendation rejected and the reasoning for this rejection. Welsh Government said:

'We believe very strongly that the Welsh Government response benefitted from the capabilities and sector expertise of both Cabinet Secretaries.'

Having a specific individual take a lead on and responsibility for managing an incident doesn't mean that no-one else can be involved or that they have to lose the expertise or talent of other Cabinet members. It just means that one clear individual holding the reins takes accountability. All that said, we were pleased to see the updated ministerial responsibilities document published last month did clarify each Cabinet Secretary's responsibility with regard to ports. This will help us and stakeholders better understand where responsibilities lie.

Deputy Presiding Officer, we have now discussed the leadership. I would like to move on to the detail of the Welsh Government response in itself. The report described it as highly sluggish. The Road Haulage Association told us the first contact they had had with the Welsh Government was an email on Christmas Eve. The road haulage representatives went on to say:

'By that time, not only had the issue been live for nearly two weeks, but we had also secured the relaxation of drivers' hours, and that had run out'.

We had assumed that the Road Haulage Association would have been one of the first the Welsh Government should have contacted. They can disseminate information to their members and ensure lorry drivers don't make the long journey to Holyhead just to be turned round. This is in sharp contrast to the evidence that we've heard about the Scottish Government response. The Road Haulage Association were contacted by Transport Scotland on 11 December to inform them that Holyhead was shut, and about the contingencies that the Scottish Government were putting in place at Castle Kennedy. Following this, the Road Haulage Association said that they were invited to almost daily calls with the Scottish authorities.

The Irish Road Haulage Association also criticised communications from both the port and authorities. They told us:

'There was a build-up of over 1,000 trailers in the Holyhead area, and they kept pouring in, because we weren't told to stop'.

That was their direct quote from committee evidence. We understand from the Welsh Government's response to our report that it looks like Stena were over-optimistic in their assessment around the ability to reopen the port, and that the Welsh Government encouraged Stena to issue a notice stating that the port would be closed indefinitely. However, we still feel that there was more of a role for the Welsh Government at this point. We think that had there been regular communications with the likes of the Road Haulage Association, this would have been clear to the Welsh Government as well.

We accept the Welsh Government's point that the port is a commercial operator, and that that limits the Welsh Government's role and responsibilities. However, the port is also a piece of critical infrastructure, and the closure has a large knock-on effect on other businesses and lorry drivers and members of the public. We would suggest, at a minimum, that Welsh Government has a duty to support and inform all these groups during a period of critical national infrastructure failure. As such, we think earlier action and better communication with the Welsh Government would have been most welcome.

We also found that a sluggish approach to the long-term transport policy had exacerbated the issues faced by hauliers and other users of the port. Welsh Government had previously committed to developing a Welsh ports and maritime strategy, and a Welsh national freight and logistics plan by 2024. Neither of these were in place at the time of the port's closure. Professor Andrew Potter expressed disappointment about the lack of action from the Welsh Government on a new freight plan, telling us that, given that the last one was in 2008, that seems quite remiss.

Although it was before my time as Chair of the committee, one of the first pieces of work that the committee undertook was on HGV driver shortages and supply- chain issues. That report made several recommendations, including a recommendation to expedite the development of a freight plan, incorporating the recommendations from the said report to urgently work with partners to improve HGV driver rest provision. Welsh Government accepted all those recommendations in the report. I can't help but think that if they had not just accepted but enacted those recommendations, then the impact of the port closures on lorry drivers may have been mitigated. All of this leaves me wondering where the Government was on this issue: why were such key drivers of our economy left relying on public policy that was developed in the same year as the first iPhone was released? And how did the Scottish Government seemingly respond to port closures in Wales more effectively than the Welsh Government?

However, despite the seemingly negative response to our report, we are pleased to see that many of the concerns we raised are reflected in the terms of reference for the taskforce on sea connectivity between Wales and Ireland. We note the terms of reference state that the taskforce will ascertain what Holyhead and other Welsh ports need from all stakeholders over the longer term to not just survive, but to thrive. We hope that the taskforce can meet that aspiration, as thriving ports are vital to our economy.

Whilst talking about thriving ports, we would also like to quickly mention trade diversion. This is an issue that the committee has concerns around and has been monitoring. The Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning told the committee that the value of trade through Holyhead in December 2024 was almost £0.5 billion less than the year before. At the time, she noted that these figures would require unpicking. We were wondering if the Welsh Government has done the unpicking and if it might have a firmer figure of the impact of the closure now.

And finally, Deputy Presiding Officer, I would like to briefly return to delays in reopening the port. Whilst the port has been coping so far, I am concerned that further delays weaken the port's resilience while the work is ongoing. I am sure that users, and particularly hauliers, will have much more confidence in the port once the two berths are up and running. I would like to ask the Cabinet Secretary what discussions he has had with Stena on the new reopening date and how confident is he that it will be met?

Before I give way, I would like to thank everyone who gave evidence to this inquiry. Their testimony and their experience allowed us to make important recommendations, which we are disappointed to say that the Government has largely rejected. However, I would like to also underline one further element of disappointment: despite considerable efforts, we were unable to take evidence from Irish Ferries. They decided not to engage with the inquiry. This is frustrating as they could have been one of the key witnesses, not just as one of the two ferry companies who use the port, but also considering their involvement in the incident.

I look forward to hearing what other Members have to say and the Cabinet Secretary’s response to our debate. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Firstly, can I thank the Chair of the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee, Andrew R.T. Davies, and those witnesses who gave evidence to the inquiry? I hold the report in my hand. I think it's a very strong report, on what was a big disturbance at Holyhead port, not caused by storm Darragh. I think there was a perception in the press and in the general public that storm Darragh had caused the closure, but we were given the evidence by those that that wasn't the case. There were berthing incidents that predated storm Darragh's wildest impact on the seas around Holyhead.

It's a light report, because it focuses quite timely on the key issues. There are six recommendations. It is sorry that recommendation 1 is rejected; recommendation 2 is rejected; recommendation 3 only has a partial acceptance; recommendation 4, rejected; recommendation 5, partial acceptance; and recommendation 6, partial acceptance. That's quite disappointing, because, if we take recommendation 1, that's only asking for the Welsh Government to undertake a lessons-learned review. Surely that must be a priority. [Interruption.] So, why not accept? I can understand that the Cabinet Secretary there is saying that that's the taskforce, so accept the recommendation and outline what you're doing through the taskforce.

I will come on to the taskforce—[Interruption.] I will come on to the taskforce, because it was mentioned in a question by Rhun ap Iorwerth earlier today, and you thanked Rhun ap Iorwerth for taking part in the taskforce. I do remind the Cabinet Secretary that there are other ports servicing Ireland, in Pembrokeshire. There is Pembroke port in my constituency, and Fishguard port in Paul Davies's constituency—two ports that picked up the slack when Holyhead was shut, and we've not been afforded the opportunity to contribute to that Irish sea taskforce. I understand that might be an oversight, but I just wanted to put that on the record—that Holyhead isn't the only port in Wales servicing Ireland.

But what was evident through the inquiry was the importance of Holyhead port to Ireland. I think sometimes here in Wales we under-appreciate the value of that port. I think its closure has highlighted the need for us to have a long-term strategy. I've hosted the British Ports Association in the Pierhead a number of times since I've been elected. I myself am a former Stena Line employee, working on the ferry between Fishguard and Rosslare, Deputy Llywydd, when I was a student. I thoroughly enjoyed the job, but I don't really have the sea legs to do it full-time. But what I do understand is the value that it brings to the area. And I think the evidence we took from the local authority and the business community in Holyhead is the impact of the closure on that wider community, something that I'm sure the Member for Ynys Môn will touch upon in his contribution.

But when we're looking at where we're going—. We're a maritime nation. We are a maritime nation, we should understand the value of these things, not rely on its closure to re-highlight the importance of this facility, this key facility. It's the shortest crossing between the United Kingdom, or between Great Britain, and the Republic of Ireland. It's really well used. It's got the accessibility of the A55. Gosh, I know Paul Davies and I would love to have dual carriage roads on the A40 down to service our ports in south Wales. But let's understand that there are other ports that have picked up the slack. There's the importance of Holyhead—tick, yes, how important it is to our wider economy and to the local economy on the island of Ynys Môn—but also the importance of other ports that we have in Wales as well. I think that's something—. If we're looking at a more long-term strategy—and I note the Cabinet Secretary's viewpoints on the Irish sea taskforce—then I really think that we need to take into consideration the investment that's been announced by Stena Line into Fishguard harbour, in Paul Davies's constituency, and the focus around renewable energies at the port in Pembroke. I think there's a real opportunity for us to have a real dedicated focus, policy focus, policy renewal, really, on our ports and our port infrastructure in Wales. And it's just sad that it takes a closure of the magnitude that we saw at Holyhead for us to readdress this. I think what is very evident as well from this report was the strength of feeling amongst those who took part in it around the importance, the catalyst element that ports and harbours provide to their communities, not just employment, but through visitors and all the other economic interventions that ports and harbours bring to their areas.

So, Deputy Presiding Officer, I'm really pleased that I, as a committee member, was able to sit in on this, with my own personal interest in ports and harbours. I'll reiterate my disappointment as to the Government’s responses to some of the recommendations, but I do hope that this is an opportunity for us to relaunch, reaffirm and renew Welsh Government’s commitments to ports and port infrastructure in Wales.

May I thank the committee for doing this work, and for doing it so soon after this incident, which was so damaging in terms of trade through Holyhead port, and in terms of the town itself and the wider community? I mentioned earlier today the major impact of the drop in trade, the drop in the number of people passing through the town and the money that was spent in the town during that period.

So, this was a very serious issue, and the first recommendation of the committee tells us that the key thing is that lessons should be learnt from this. The report, in and of itself, is useful in that regard, but what it does tell us is that the Welsh Government must now continue to keep a very close eye on the resilience of this port, in order to ensure that it’s fit for the rest of this century, and beyond.

I'll turn to recommendation 3 briefly, and the communication that happened at the time, immediately after the incident. I am grateful to the Cabinet Secretary himself for the contact that I had during that period. I found that to be very useful indeed. But it is clear, isn't it, that there was a great lack of clarity as to where the haulage companies should divert their vehicles. The Road Haulage Association said that it was Christmas Eve when the Welsh Government first contacted them. And on the ground, businesses and travellers were hearing from the Welsh Government that the port would be back in operation within days, and then, from the Irish Government, warnings that the port wouldn’t reopen before Christmas. And here we are with the port still not fully reopened. But that third recommendation on communications, following this kind of incident in the future, is hugely important.

Recommendation 4—this echoes the question that I had an opportunity to ask of the Cabinet Secretary earlier today, in terms of the level of support that needs to be provided, still, to the community and the businesses who did lose out because of this incident. And I note, from the response of the Cabinet Secretary, that the final case has been presented by the local authority in Anglesey to the Welsh Government, and that consideration is being given to steps that could be put in place. But, certainly, we need decisions to be taken very soon, because the help is needed now by some of those businesses to make up the losses that they have suffered in recent months.

I'll turn, finally, to recommendation 6. The committee states that it will monitor the work of the taskforce that's been established. So, a few words on this taskforce: for me, my concern after the incident was the port of Holyhead, and the resilience of that port. Samuel Kurtz is entirely right in noting that there are other ports in Wales, and this opportunity was used to expand horizons, through the taskforce, in terms of looking at the resilience of crossings across the Irish sea more generally.

I will make the counterpoint to the point made by Samuel Kurtz. I was invited to one meeting that was meant to specifically focus on what was happening in the port of Holyhead. What I heard was the discussion there turning to the other ports in Wales. So, please, please, at those important times where we are supposed to be focused on Holyhead, can we ensure that the focus remains on Holyhead?

And I will make a broader point that talking about the port of Holyhead means more than just what happens on the seafront itself. Yes, we need to ensure that lessons are being learnt as to why there was a weakness in the dock itself. We need to please finally address the routes in and out of the port. The A55 was built to the port of Holyhead, but not into the port. Surely we’ve now learnt that we need to make that investment.

A little further from the port, you have the Menai crossing, of course. And there’s been a grave lack of action from the Welsh Government in relation to the Menai crossing. Yes, the decision was taken—the wrong decision, I believe—not to proceed with the work of building a third crossing. Not only was that cancelled, there has been nothing done to change things for travellers across the Menai since then. We have to see action. We have to see greater resilience in all of those elements that create a port, which is so very important. And I also have to mention the lorry parks and so on that were lost as a result of Brexit. There are so many questions that need to be addressed. We must use the focus that's been placed on this in light of the incident last December to ensure that we do build a resilient port for the future.

I welcome this opportunity to take part in this debate this afternoon.

As a member of the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee, I'd like to start by thanking everyone who contributed to this short committee inquiry, which came at the request of Members and was generated by what was occurring at that time. It was both topical and timely. In fact, I think I recall that events were evolving in real time on the very morning of the evidence session.

As well as contributing as a member of the committee, I'm also contributing as a Member of the Senedd from north Wales who is very much alive to the significance of the port of Holyhead to the economy and communities of north Wales and beyond. Indeed, we know that Holyhead is Wales's busiest ferry port and the second busiest roll-on, roll-off port in the UK after Dover, directly supporting over 700 jobs on Ynys Môn and thousands more across north Wales.

I'm going to focus today on a couple of specific aspects of the report and evidence given to the committee, particularly around recommendation 6, as well as the welfare and well-being of the workforce and the potential of moving forward in meaningful partnership.

Before I do, I just want to make a broader observation that the Chair touched on in his opening remarks, and that's around the clarity around ministerial responsibility and accountability, because it really wasn't clear, even in the committee evidence session. I do recognise, note, that you rejected recommendation 1, but do note too that those ministerial changes have now been made—. I'll take an intervention.

I'm grateful to you for taking the intervention. You're absolutely right. Wasn't it evident when the Chair opened the questioning and both Ministers looked to answer at the same time on the point of who was responsible, visually showing that there was this unclarity, this unfamiliarity as to who took the control in this situation?

Thanks. I don't think it helped that, basically, we weren't all in the same room for that committee inquiry, and two people were on different screens as well. But I very much welcome that update that's now there in the updated ministerial responsibilities, as of last month.

Turning, more substantially, to recommendation 6 and the work of the Irish sea taskforce and the committee's view that its objective should be inclusive of ensuring the future safety of the port alongside supporting the long-term viability, I believe this is fundamental both to the future of the service and infrastructure, but also to the individuals that are central to enabling this crucial service. In respect of those individuals, the taskforce's terms of reference includes things like adequate provisions for staff and workforce welfare, considerations of port workers, drivers and supply-chain workforce welfare.

After pressing the need to involve representatives of the workforce in the taskforce, I'm pleased to see the RMT are on there. They represent both workers and seafarers, as the Cabinet Secretary will be familiar with. I'd ask the Welsh Government to build on their work with the trade unions, and the committee too, in the longer term, including on the introduction of the measures of the UK Government's Employment Rights Bill for workers in Wales.

In response to conclusion 3 of the committee's report, the Welsh Government acknowledges gaps in knowledge regarding employment and supply-side issues at Holyhead. Whilst the RMT is the recognised trade union at Stena Line in Holyhead, Irish Ferries currently operate P&O-style seafarer contracts. In the inquiry session, I raised potential concerns around the impact of some of the working practices, specifically as Irish Ferries uses a low-cost employment model with no permanent employees and instead awards temporary contracts. This is not just me as a proud trade unionist, and I've raised this with colleagues in the committee too, this is about the health and well-being of that workforce and the implications it might have more broadly.

I do believe that that piece of legislation, the Employment Rights Bill, could offer an opportunity to plug the gap, as outlined in that response to conclusion 3, but also secure sector sustainability with training, more secure jobs, and support for Welsh seafarers on Irish ships' services from Holyhead, and ports right across Wales. So, can I ask the Cabinet Secretary: is this something that the Welsh Government agrees with and will pursue in proper partnership?

As Sam Kurtz said, whilst it had been reported that the Holyhead port closure was due to storm weather, the committee heard in our evidence that, on Friday 6 and Saturday 7 December, two Irish Ferries vessels were involved in incidents at berth 3 of the port ahead of the conditions worsening as part of storm Darragh, and the Chair said too Irish Ferries did not provide evidence to the committee, nor did they actually respond to any correspondence from the Chair. This is, if I put it diplomatically, a matter of regret. I think, for me, that reluctance to engage raises concerns around accountability, particularly as we're trying to look at lessons learned, and also I think we should recognise that the Welsh Government's provided significant amounts of public funding, to the tune of £40 million, towards the refurbishment of the breakwater of Holyhead. Stena Line Ports may own the port, but Irish Ferries will also benefit from this important public investment.

As a committee, we also questioned who determined the regulatory activity of the port, and recognise that's a reserved responsibility. I believe Welsh Ministers have a duty to use the powers at their devolved disposal to bring about broader benefits and drive outcomes that are in the interests of people and places in Wales. So, again, can I ask, Cabinet Secretary: how does Welsh Government intend to use the power of the public purse and procurement to do just that as part of its ports strategy?

I will reach a conclusion now, Llywydd, I'm conscious I took a small intervention, but I will—

I accept that small intervention, as you know, but you have now reached beyond that time.

Okay, just finally then, there is work on a seafarers' charter to enhance the terms and conditions of those seafarers and help with welfare needs. So, can I ask the Cabinet Secretary, along with colleagues in Government, to press the UK Government on that and to ensure there's sustainability and support for this important workforce that supports our infrastructure moving forward? Diolch.

Thank you to Andrew R.T. Davies for introducing this report in the manner that he did, and there have been some really good contributions since. I thank the committee for the work on this matter of national importance. The Welsh Government response, I believe, isn't good enough. It's astounding that they rejected recommendations 1 and 2. You believe that the incident was well managed, despite contact with key trade bodies representing road freight not taking place for almost a month. You believe there was strong leadership by the two Cabinet Secretaries involved, yet the BPA, Stena Line Ports and Milford Haven port did not know who was ultimately responsible.

According to the timeline of Welsh Government actions, on 12 December, the port of Holyhead closure was no longer considered a civil contingencies matter, so was moved to being under the remit of the transport divisions. So, one question: a berth wasn't reopened until 15 January, businesses across north Wales, including my own here, and, of course, in Ynys Môn, were suffering trade slumps of up to 90 per cent on some days, so why was this crisis downgraded by the Welsh Government a month earlier, on 12 December? Why was it that the Road Haulage Association members were contacted and updated by Transport Scotland every day in the run-up to Christmas, but only on Christmas Eve by the Welsh civil service? There was Scottish leadership here, rather than Welsh, and those questions are fundamental and need answering. Diolch.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, Ken Skates.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I welcome this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the initial findings of the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee's inquiry into the storm damage at Holyhead port. As Members will recall, the closure of the port required a cross-Government effort. I'm here today responding on behalf of all Ministers who worked collectively to respond to the impact of the port's closure, and I'd like to thank the committee for their work. As has been noted, we have submitted our response to the committee's report, and I do firmly believe that the committee delivered its work at pace. Had it had more time, it may have considered a wider range of viewpoints from all stakeholders, and its findings may have reflected the views we are hearing during taskforce meetings.

Now, the closure of Holyhead port made clear its importance as a strategic asset that we need to look after, as many Members have identified today. It's a key transport hub and a route for people, a route for freight and logistics sector operators, for all supply chains transferring essential goods in both directions across the Irish sea. Having worked closely with the Irish Minister of State for transport during the closure, I visited Dublin back in March to meet with the Irish Government and Irish exporters and hauliers. Both Governments were and remain committed to working together on our strategic access points to the Irish sea.

As Senedd Members will recall, I reiterate that ports in Wales handling Irish sea traffic are commercial entities, either privately owned and operated, or they operate on a trust basis. The actions that we took throughout the closure allowed for continuity as we worked together to find collective solutions. We got vessels diverted into different Welsh ports, we worked alongside the UK Government departments to open additional routes, we ensured that no roadworks were taking place around the key Welsh roads leading up to the ports, and we ensured that there was plenty of train capacity into our port towns.

The Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning, the Irish Government and I worked closely to ensure that people and goods were able to cross the Irish sea ahead of the Christmas holidays. We recognise that the port is privately owned and privately operated and that the two private ferry companies that were operating from the port had to be the single point of truth when it came to communicating ferry schedules and service patterns.

Now, we have responded directly to recommendation 3 with 23 points. I believe, in combination, that they demonstrate very clearly how Welsh Government’s response to the incident and port closure unfolded. The formation of the Irish sea taskforce was a direct action that I took following the closure of the port. We’ve just concluded the third of six meetings and the number of members, who represent a plethora of stakeholders with a vested interest in Welsh ports and in travel across the Irish sea, have demonstrated their continued commitment, and I’d like to put on record my thanks for their time in sharing their expertise to date—

Will the Minister give way?

Yes, of course.

Thank you. You mentioned there the stakeholders that are involved. Given the evidence, or the lack of evidence, from Irish Ferries—a point raised by Hannah Blythyn—are Irish Ferries an active contributor to the Irish sea taskforce, given that they’re a constituent business of mine, sailing from Pembroke Dock as well?

Yes, indeed, they are. I can confirm that. They’re a very active participant in the work of the taskforce.

As a taskforce and as a Government, we realise that there are always lessons to be learned and things we could do to improve situations in the future. With the benefit of hindsight and shared learning, we’re in the process of identifying elements that we could do differently should we ever find ourselves in a similar port closure scenario again. The taskforce discussions that we have held to date have enabled us to recognise the people and organisations that we would need to convene in such a scenario. Within the taskforce meetings, stakeholders have shared their own lessons learned, future challenges and opportunities they may face. We've collectively discussed how collaboration between industry and Governments could lead to further improvements in any similar future incident. However, stakeholders have also emphasised that they do not want Governments telling them what to do, and we agree. We believe in subsidiarity, that decisions should be made by the most appropriate bodies, and that we, as a Welsh Government, have a convening role in bringing stakeholders together and demonstrating and helping to find solutions to problems, as we did in December, and have continued to do so since the closure.

In response to the point raised by Samuel Kurtz regarding the attendance of Rhun ap Iorwerth at the last taskforce meeting, I would again confirm that the last meeting was specific to how the closure impacted on the people and the businesses of Holyhead, and I'm pleased to say that I understand that Members from south-west Wales have been invited to the next taskforce meeting, which is a broader meeting about ports elsewhere in Wales. That meeting is on 7 July; if you haven't received details yet, I will send them again, but you have been invited, I believe.

Stena Line Ports have committed to Holyhead port's long-term future as a vital connection between Wales and Ireland, and are putting in place an investment strategy. This will ensure the resilience of the infrastructure and will safeguard the port's future. Stena Line Ports will work collaboratively with the ferry operators to ensure that future planned maintenance work on both berths can be carried out to protect the resilience of the structures, whilst also maintaining full operations and capacity at the port.

The taskforce will produce a set of recommendations setting out actions that need to be taken forward by members of the taskforce, and I'll make a written statement to the Senedd once the taskforce has concluded its work at the end of October, setting out those recommendations. We will then consider the recommendations in more depth as we work to publish a strategy for ports, freight and logistics before next May. Diolch.

I call now on Andrew R.T. Davies, Chair of the committee, to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you to all Members who contributed, and the Cabinet Secretary for his response. Sam Kurtz highlighted a very important part about what we were investigating, which was under the assumption that the newsreels were telling us about storm Darragh; it wasn't actually in the time of storm Darragh hitting Holyhead that the incident took place, it was prior to storm Darragh, and so there were other issues, obviously, to be considered about seamanship et cetera, and that was a very important consideration to reflect on, and he also introduced the other key ports of Pembroke Dock and obviously Fishguard to be considered in the overall strategy that the Welsh Government is adopting.

Rhun obviously brought in the points, as a constituency Member, about the chaos that ensued on the island. As we heard from the Irish Road Haulage Association, 1,000 trucks and 1,000 vehicles on the island of Anglesey at one given moment. For any place to cope with that, that's a huge ask, but when such limited infrastructure is in place, that's even a bigger ask, that is. The point that you made as well about the bridges onto the island of Anglesey and the general engineering that serves the port, I think, are things that any future Welsh Government needs to consider, especially when we hear about it being the second largest port in the UK. This isn't some backwater we're talking about. We're talking about the second largest port in the UK, which was announced several times in news media reports, and I think that informed people of the scale of the operation that was going on there.

Hannah Blythyn introduced the point about seamanship, and obviously the concerns that we had about temporary crews and obviously the ability for ships to be able to be managed and engineered in a safe way, and this is something I'm sure the committee will want to keep a watching brief on. I did note that the Cabinet Secretary didn't respond to that request from Hannah Blythyn about what more consideration the Welsh Government might be giving to what it might be able to do to look into this matter, and maybe he could write to our committee to inform us of what his ministry is doing on this particular point.

Janet Finch-Saunders touched on the impact on businesses, which is a key consideration. Some businesses reported a 90 per cent drop in their turnover. And I heard what the Minister said that there is still consideration ongoing about potential support for businesses, but we're now into July, some eight months on from their busiest period, and businesses are looking for some sort of certainty, some sort of clarity on this particular issue. So, the sooner the Minister can come forward with proposals on that, I'm sure that would be greatly received.

And then the Minister replied, and he didn't address the facts about communications that the Road Haulage Association highlighted to us, that they weren't contacted by Welsh Government until Christmas Eve, whereas the Scottish Government contacted them some four days later. He didn't highlight how the Scottish Government were able to respond in what the Road Haulage Association saw as an exemplary response, and the Welsh Government were slow to communicate with trade bodies. And, obviously, there is this confusion around responsibilities, which again I didn't think he addressed in his response to myself as Chair or other members of the committee, although I do understand that the First Minister has obviously rearranged the responsibilities within the Government with her announcements some two weeks ago.

And, as I say, I reiterate the point about support for businesses. It is vital that that support is made available, so that businesses can have confidence that they can seek some sort of redress for the losses that they experienced. But the report stands testimony to the evidence we took. It's not something we took in isolation or in a darkened room, as I said in my opening remarks: these are witness statements given, and they're all there for people to see. I very much hope that the Cabinet Secretary, along with his colleagues in the Welsh Government, will now listen and adopt the approach accordingly, and we look forward to the taskforce recommendations coming forward in October, so that we can build on that positivity and build a more sustainable and resilient port infrastructure here in Wales. I commend the report to the Senedd.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 7 today is a debate on a Member's legislative proposal: a Bill for Owain's law. I call on Hefin David to move the motion.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I want to thank you for the opportunity to debate this Member's legislative proposal today. I'm grateful to those Members from across the different parties represented in this Senedd who have registered their support for this motion. It really does mean a lot. We've just finished an interview with the BBC, who are going to carry this debate on Politics Wales on Sunday.

Members may have seen the motion on the order paper today and wondered why I'd tabled it. They may have wondered what it was about, being unsure of the subject matter, or curious to see what it seeks to achieve. I would like now to give Members a little bit of background, and explain why this motion calls for the establishment of Owain's law.

Owain's law is named after my constituent, Owain James of Caerphilly, who sadly passed away last year. Owain was only 34 years old when he was diagnosed with a 14 cm, malignant, grade 4 brain tumour in his right frontal lobe. His neurosurgeon said it was one of the biggest tumours she'd ever come across in her professional career. It was an absolutely devastating blow to Owain, his wife Ellie, who is in the public gallery today, and his daughter Amelia, who at the time was only 18 months old. Until then, Owain had always been a fit and healthy young man.

From the outset, Owain's prognosis was not good. He was told that if he did nothing, he would have just weeks to live. He underwent surgery at Cardiff's University Hospital of Wales, and 50 per cent of the tumour, 7 cm in size, was removed. He was told by his oncologist that radiotherapy and chemotherapy were the only options available to him on the NHS—that remains the case—and that this would not reduce the remaining tumour in size. He was advised that his best hope was that the treatment would hold back the tumour for a period of time before it started growing again.

Owain's family could not accept this, and so looked for private treatment outside the NHS. They found a personalised vaccine that used the patient's tumour tissue to educate the immune system to recognise the cancerous cells. The problem here, however, was that Owain needed fresh frozen tumour tissue to develop a sufficient dose of the vaccine. Owen had had 7 cm of tissue surgically removed but, unfortunately, only 1 cm of this was fresh frozen and could be used. The remaining tumour tissue was wrapped in a chemical—some used for histology and the remaining tissue of no use to anyone. Owain's family have since been told by an external pathologist that there was no need to use this amount of tissue for diagnosis, and that more could have been saved.

This meant that Owain only had three doses of a vaccine, when it should have been more like 30 doses. However, he went ahead with his treatment, as this was still his best chance. Owain had a scan six months following his surgery. He completed radiotherapy, three cycles of chemotherapy, three doses of vaccine and a small number of other immune-boosting natural therapies. This produced a clear scan. The remaining 7 cm tumour had completely regressed in size, to the extent that it could not be detected.

His recovery was so remarkable that his case was later the focus of a study published by a peer-reviewed scientific journal, the Journal of Neuroscience. Owain continued to have clear scans for nine whole months, and a very normal quality of life. I remember taking a call from Ellie, telling me that the tumour had completely disappeared, and how happy she and the family were, and how delighted I and my team were that this had happened.

Unfortunately, metastasis caused his tumour to recur elsewhere. This time, the tumour was too aggressive and Owain sadly passed away in June 2024. Ellie, 35 years of age, now lives with the regret that they were only able to develop and obtain enough doses for those three vaccines. Had there been more, we feel that Owain would still be alive today.

So, that is the very sad background to why we're here today, debating my proposal for Owain's law. The use of fresh frozen tissue is not just for the vaccine with which Owain was treated. It can be used for other vaccines, therapies, research and full genome sequencing. It's regarded as the gold standard approach to preserving human tissue—a view that is shared by many of those familiar with the field, such as medical professionals, pathologists and respected charities, like the Brain Tumour Charity and Brain Tumour Research.

This kind of use, though, can only be done when the tumour is fresh frozen, which, as we've already heard, it wasn't in Owain's case. Owain's law seeks to address this. It seeks to make this the default process for storing surgically removed tissue in Wales—fresh freezing—along with improving histological and pathological processes, so that less tissue is required, and all with the patient's explicit consent.

In February 2023, the all-party parliamentary group on brain tumours published a report on breaking down the barriers to finding a cure for brain tumours. They said that we must ensure that robust tissue collection storage infrastructure is in place across the United Kingdom. In addition, the British Neuro-oncology Society published a position statement entitled 'Guideline for Tissue Sampling of Brain Tumours'. It was signed by eight respected medics with extensive clinical expertise, and it recognises the need to have tissue fresh frozen.

In Wales, we can lead the way, and if we're not going to, why are we not going to? That is my question to the Cabinet Secretary. I wrote to you, Cabinet Secretary, on 25 April and asked if it was something that you could support. While you didn't commit to that, I am grateful for your response. In your letter, you said that the proposal for Owain's law raises important issues regarding tissue preservation and the volume of tissue required for diagnostic purposes.

But you went on to say that a universal mandate to freeze all brain tumour tissue may not take sufficient account of the fact that the tissue volume required to secure an accurate diagnosis can vary significantly in each individual patient's case. You said that, while the submission of fresh unfixed tissue may be preferable to enable fresh freezing, this must be balanced with the need to achieve an accurate and timely diagnosis. But, as I've said, Ellie James sought advice from an external pathologist who said that it was an unnecessary amount of tissue. We could have kept more tissue for the purposes of saving Owain's life, or at least prolonging it.

Owain's family sent over a couple of slides of his tissue—probably about 5 mm—to scientists in Germany. They were able to analyse and confirm Owain's diagnosis, and test for thousands of mutations, just with that small amount of minimal tissue. Your letter to me did not comment on the need to fresh freeze tissue following histology. Owain's grandfather was diagnosed with a grade 4 brain tumour in the early 1990s. He was offered the identical treatment pathway as Owain had 30 years later. We should recognise that with the discovery of glioblastoma, a grade 4 brain tumour, in 1926, the medium length of survival was 12 months. Today, a century later, it's 12 months.

So, what I'd like to do with my Member's legislative proposal today, Llywydd, is I'd like the Cabinet Secretary to answer some questions that I addressed in the letter. Is there any prospect—? Would the chief deputy medical officer for Wales be willing to meet with me and Ellie James to discuss how we can work together to find a way forward?

This is a very human story of my constituent who passed away from a brain tumour far too young. Ellie is the person who came up with the idea of Owain's law, and she asked me to bring it to the Senedd Chamber today. I look forward to the debate. I look forward to the Cabinet Secretary's response. But, most of all, I look forward to progress in this matter.

I thank Hefin for bringing forward his legislative proposal, one I fully support. I do, however, have some suggestions of things that need to be considered when drafting Owain's law. My concern surrounds how tissues belonging to those with deeply held religious beliefs are dealt with. For example, it is Islamic belief that the entire body, including all organs, limbs, body parts and tissues, are considered sacred and should be treated with respect. Islam honours human beings, alive or dead. This applies to their body parts as well as to their persons. Therefore, if a body part is cut from a human being, or tissue removed, they are to be buried and not to be thrown away as waste or incinerated. The organ cut off is not to be washed before burial and no funeral prayer is to be offered for it. It is just to be wrapped in a piece of cloth and buried. I would like to see Owain's law consider these facts and make accommodations within the legislation—

Will you take an intervention?

Yes.

Just to say, we've considered that to be an item in section 2(a)(ii) of the law. So, what we've asked for is consent that will outline that all remaining tissue will be owned by the patient, and only consent from the patient or next of kin, where appropriate, can determine its use. So, the idea of the law is to actually give that. That right currently does not exist because, at the moment, if a piece of tissue is taken, its destination is not decided by the patient. So, this law actually helps with that and helps address that concern.

Absolutely, yes. Thank you very much, and let me finish this all.

I would like to see Owain's law consider these facts, as you suggested, and make accommodations within the legislation that should include, as a bare minimum, a means for capturing religious preferences as part of the consent form. I hope that Hefin will agree with these, as he has already changed as necessary, and I look forward to his legislation proposal becoming a reality. Diolch yn fawr.

I want to start by thanking Hefin for introducing this legislative proposal today. I can confirm that we as a party will be supporting it in full. It's appropriate that we start by extending our sincere and heartfelt condolences to the family of Owain James. It's difficult to imagine the pain and the loss that they have had to face. It's clear that he battled bravely, and it's entirely appropriate, therefore, that we demonstrate all due respect by thinking about how we can improve the situation for others here in Wales.

This proposal does reflect two core principles at the heart of our national health service. The first is that the NHS belongs to the public. It's the service that belongs to all of us, and its primary objective is to serve the people. Second, it's the voice of the patient, their concerns, their views, that should be at the heart of every decision made. That should be true in every case, without exception, without excuse. 

This debate today provides an opportunity for us to note some of the challenges that face patients with brain tumours in Wales, specifically the painful long process before receiving a diagnosis and the problems in receiving that diagnosis, as well as the lack of diagnostic machines such as scanners. Even after receiving a diagnosis, we have a lack of specialist treatment centres, with far too many of our patients having to travel very long distances at times of weakness to receive their treatment.

Last week, I introduced a motion to include workforce planning for allied health professionals, and the context of today's debate crystallises why this is needed, because so many of these therapists are vital to support the journey for brain tumour patients.  

Brain cancer kills more young people and children than any other cancer, but again, it suffers from the fact that there isn't a great deal of research funding allocated to the specific kind of cancer.

It's important that we take this opportunity to remind ourselves of the contexts facing patients and their families as they battle this cruel disease. This proposed Bill in front of us today raises a specific issue around the consent and use of tumour tissues, matters that we don't normally have the opportunity to discuss in this Chamber, but matters of huge significance, which must be considered and worked through. So once again, I thank Hefin for this debate. But it raises some questions, and in the spirit of compassion I'd like to raise a few questions around the practicalities of the proposed legislation in the hope of supporting its aims as strongly and sensitively as possible.

Firstly, Hefin outlined situations in which obtaining consent prior to surgery may not be feasible, and you propose a 48-hour period post operation to ensure that consent can be confirmed. Could I ask how you arrived at that 48-hour figure? Do you feel confident that this allows for a fair balance between confirming consent as soon as possible while also ensuring that patients are given sufficient time to recover enough to meaningfully participate in that consent? Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

I offer my deepest condolences to Owain's family, and diolch to Hefin for bringing this forward and to Owain's family for this legislative proposal and bringing it to this Senedd today. I support the motion on this proposed Bill in the memory of Owain James and inspired by the urgent need for change to how brain tumour tissue is handled. My mother also died from a brain tumour, so it's an issue that is deeply personal for me.

Brain tumours remain the biggest cancer killer of children and adults under 40, yet they receive just 1 per cent of national cancer research funding. Families like mine and Owain's are let down not only by research, but also by how precious tumour tissue is managed. Owain's law will enshrine a vital principle that patients and families must be fully informed and able to consent before any tumour tissue is stored or used. It guarantees that tumour samples are preserved without damaging chemicals, frozen at -80 degrees centigrade in multiple samples, ensuring the viability for future life-saving research. This is more than a technical protocol. This is a matter of dignity, respect and hope for families facing devastating diagnoses.

By supporting this motion we honour those who we have lost and commit to building a better future for those still fighting. I stand firmly behind Owain's law and urge Members to do the same. Diolch.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, Jeremy Miles. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I want to start my response, if I may, by extending my condolences to Mrs Ellie James and my gratitude to her for her determination to improve outcomes for other people who face similar circumstances.

My commitment, Dirprwy Lywydd, is to be guided in all that we do by clinical evidence and best practice for all patients when considering changes to legislation or policy. NHS pathology practices are efficient in using the smallest amounts of tissue possible to establish diagnosis and full molecular profile. Fresh frozen tissue is indeed valuable for certain research applications and emerging molecular technologies, but currently it cannot replace formalin-fixed paraffin-embedded tissue for a timely and accurate diagnosis.

The neuropathology department at the University Hospital of Wales routinely stores fresh frozen diagnostic tissue, and Wales was an early adopter of the collection and freezing of fresh tumour tissue—in fact, well ahead of many neuropathology departments in the UK, leading the way, in the words of the Member. This was made possible through close collaboration with the all-Wales medical genomics laboratory, which expanded its molecular testing capabilities for solid tumours, including brain tumours, following increased funding that we made available in 2019. As a result, Mr James's fresh tumour sample was retained at the time of diagnosis, which was in advance of the Royal College of Pathologists' guidelines issued in October 2024.

The infrastructure and standard operating procedures for collecting and freezing CNS tumour tissue were established specifically to support emerging molecular technologies, as well as research, particularly within the context of clinical trials. And clinical trials play an important role in the management of aggressive brain tumours, offering access to experimental therapies where prognosis can otherwise be poor. Most trials require a confirmed tissue diagnosis, and patients are often ineligible without that.

Under current legal and ethical frameworks, including the Human Tissue Act 2004, everyone undergoing surgery in Wales or the rest of the UK must provide valid consent, including permission to retain tissue for diagnostic purposes. While the Act does not define tissue as, so to speak, the legal property of the patient, it places consent at the heart of all decisions beyond diagnosis, ensuring that patients retain full control over its use. This would have been the case when Mr James was undergoing treatment.

For reasons that I'm sure Members will appreciate, initial consent is necessarily broad, as it is not possible to predict entirely in advance which diagnostic molecular tests or clinical trials a patient may require or benefit from. This approach is robust and it is also, importantly, patient centred. It protects patients from potentially being overwhelmed at the time of surgery, whilst acknowledging the evolving use of tissue in modern medicine, which we've heard about in today's debate. Where research or external testing is considered, further consent is always sought after diagnosis, and patients may, of course, withdraw or withhold consent at any time.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I am committed to supporting national efforts to enhance tissue archiving and equitable access to genomic testing. My officials are working in partnership with the all-Wales medical genomics service, Genomics England and other stakeholders to ensure our practices remain future facing, and in the best interests of our patients. The Welsh neuro-oncology network comprises a highly motivated and highly specialised group of clinicians committed to work together to improve outcomes for people with brain tumours. Their dedication was recognised recently with the award of the Tessa Jowell centre of excellence status for the management of brain tumour patients. I think this achievement reflects the exceptional commitment of that team. The neuropathology service has also recently achieved UCAS accreditation, further demonstrating the high standards maintained in diagnostic care. These are, as I'm sure Members will want to acknowledge, significant accomplishments for Wales.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I recognise that advances in cancer treatment depend on continuous learning and development. It is precisely because of that commitment to evidence and best practice that we must proceed with care. The introduction of a statutory requirement to fresh freeze all brain tumour tissue, in the Government's view, risks unintended consequences. Clinical teams already use their expert judgment to balance diagnostic needs with the potential for research and novel therapies. Overriding that clinical discretion through legislation could compromise timely diagnosis or create conflict where tissue volume is limited, which is why the Government does not believe that the case is made for legislation.

The Member asked me to confirm the advice on which the Welsh Government's position is based. I can confirm that, following receiving the letter from him, I sought further advice from the Welsh scientific advisory committee, which is the relevant statutory advisory committee, and it is their advice that informs the position that I'm setting out in this response today.

Dirprwy Lywydd, it is absolutely correct that on such an important matter, people, in particular those directly affected, have the opportunity to challenge the rationale for policy, to test perspectives and, indeed, argue for change where they feel it is needed. And I want to reiterate my thanks to Mrs James for her advocacy on these important issues, both through the Member and his proposal for a Bill today and more broadly.

I call on Hefin David to conclude the debate.

I'll just go through three key points, first of all, in response to Mabon and Altaf. The tissue will be owned by the patient. The national health service is owned by the public. The tissue remains owned by patient, which answers Altaf's question. Regarding the decision on 48 hours that Mabon raised, you could extend to 72 hours, but the longer you leave consent, the harder it is to get it. And also, consent belongs to the patient. The critical point is you can't do this without the patient giving that consent. You could get consent from next of kin if the patient delegates that, but it's an issue. Forty-eight hours is considered to be an optimal time to make those decisions. Brain tumour patients are often up and about after that period of time, generally.

With regard to the Cabinet Secretary's answer, I do take the point that expert clinical judgment is required, of course. That was our golden rule during COVID. I'm just highlighting that, in Owain's case, that expert clinical judgment was later proven to be wrong, and therefore we must find a way to be able to challenge and appeal that. We believe that as the cost of vaccines starts to fall, the availability of vaccines starts to fall, and immunotherapy treatments become more widely available, turning cancer from a terminal illness to a life-limiting one, then the availability of tissue will become key, and I think, eventually, the UK and other countries will start moving down the route towards this kind of law anyway. I just want to say one last thing: let's remember Owain for everything he's done today. Even in his passing, he's contributed to the debate on keeping patients alive for longer.

The proposal is to note the motion. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 8 today is the Welsh Conservatives debate on health emergency. I call on James Evans to move the motion.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I move the motion tabled in the name of my colleague Paul Davies. I open this debate today with a simple but urgent truth: Wales is facing a health emergency, and it is time that the Welsh Labour Government finally admitted it.

The NHS in Wales is in the worst state it has ever been. Today, nearly one in five people in Wales are waiting for treatment. Almost 800,000 patient pathways are open, and over a quarter of a million people have been waiting for more than nine months for care. Thousands are still waiting over two years, something that has been almost eradicated in England. And if that's not an emergency, I do not know what is. Labour will tell us about their £120 million fund to cut waiting lists. They will tell us about Wales becoming a Marmot nation. But patients in Brecon, Bridgend and Blaenau Gwent don't need hashtags or slogans; they need treatment and they need it now.

We have the worst A&E waiting times in the United Kingdom. In April, just 67 per cent of patients in A&E were seen within four hours here in Wales, while in England, the figures, despite challenges, are consistently better across the board. Every month, over 100,000 people in Wales wait more than 12 hours in A&E. While they wait, ambulances queue outside, unable to offload patients, tying up paramedics who should be on the road saving lives. The Welsh ambulance service has not hit its target for eight-minute response times for life-threatening calls for four years straight. And it is reaching fewer than half of those calls within the time.

Deputy Presiding Officer, let us remember the human reality. In Bridgend, an 84-year-old grandmother waited 30 hours for an ambulance after breaking her hip. In another case, a patient lay on the floor for 46 hours waiting for help. And a coroner in Wales has said that patients are dying because of ambulance delays. If that's not an emergency, Cabinet Secretary, I don't know what is.

But the crisis does not stop at the hospital doors. GP services in Wales are overwhelmed. We have nearly lost 20 per cent of our GP practices in a decade and we now have over 2,200 patients per GP in Wales—double the European average. Is it no wonder why people give up trying to get a GP appointment and end up in an accident and emergency department, just adding to the pressure in our emergency departments? 

NHS dentistry in Wales is collapsing. One in three people cannot find an NHS dentist and many parents are forced to drive their children to England for dental care. I've heard from constituents in my own part who are using, you know, the shop-bought filling kits for their teeth because they live in pain daily and they just cannot get a dentist appointment. One of my constituents even decided to rip out their tooth with a pliers because they couldn't get an NHS appointment. It is absolutely shocking.

Mental health services are also in crisis. Children in Wales have waited up to 99 weeks for a follow-up appointment with child and adolescent mental health services. One young person from Cardiff waited 14 months for just an initial assessment. These are not just delays, they're not just numbers, they are the lives of people that are being put at risk.

Labour will say that they are tackling health inequalities, but how can you tackle inequalities if you cannot get people the treatment that they need in time? Yes, I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary will point to the Marmot nation plan, but I think this has become a distraction from the immediate crisis facing our health service here in Wales. As I said, they'll point to the £122 million waiting list fund, but none of that money has been allocated to cross-border care. Spending of £1.5 billion on health since 2021 by the Welsh Government and waiting lists are still at record highs. That money is not delivering for patients and we don't have a clear plan of how it's going to get any better.

And while this demand for care has risen, the Labour Government has cut more than 4,000 hospital beds since devolution and it's also closed community hospitals right the way across Wales. And if you listen to the previous First Minister, he believes we need to go further, cutting more beds and cutting more hospitals, removing that local capacity that communities really rely upon. Now we see the consequences, don't we? Hospitals running at full, elective surgeries cancelled, ambulances unable to offload and patients waiting in corridors with a crisis in corridor care that's becoming the norm.

Deputy Presiding Officer, we cannot fix this if we will not face it. Our NHS needs a clear recovery plan with accountability, not slogans. It needs a proper workforce plan to recruit and retain staff across Wales, and that needs to happen in every community. But it also needs investment in social care so that patients can be discharged safely, freeing up hospital beds and reducing ambulance delays. And it needs the political will, the political will in here, to cut waste across our NHS and focus every single pound on delivering for patients.

Declaring a health emergency is not about headlines, it's about honesty and it's about urgency and it's about doing what is right. It's about telling that mother who has waited three years for surgery that we see you and we'll act. It's about telling the paramedic that spent 12 hours outside A&E with a patient that help is coming. And it's about telling that young person who's waiting for mental health support that they will not be forgotten by the system.

Labour has been in charge of our NHS in Wales for 26 years. They've had every opportunity to plan, to deliver and protect our health service, yet what we see today is a system on its knees, patients suffering and staff exhausted. Many people say, 'Let's try something different. Let's look to other political parties to solve the problem.' But that isn't going to work either because, under them, the NHS simply will not exist. Replaced by a French-style, insurance-based system that will mean people paying upfront, having higher costs and some people not even getting insurance altogether, suffering in pain while our NHS gets dismembered. And that is not something I want and not something the Conservative Party will ever subscribe to.

If it is not time today, then, to declare a health emergency, when is? Deputy Presiding Officer, we owe it to the people of Wales to be honest about the state of our health service. We owe it to them to act. We owe it to them to protect our NHS, protect lives. Because if we cannot do that and if we deny the scale of the crisis, people will die and suffer unnecessarily. So, that's why I urge all Members across this Chamber today to support this motion. Let us declare a health emergency in Wales and let us begin the hard and necessary work of putting our NHS back on the right foot, to deliver for taxpayers who pay for it and to deliver for the patients who need it. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Formally.

I want to thank the Conservatives for bringing forward this debate today. We in Plaid Cymru will be supporting the motion. After all, Plaid Cymru was the first Government to call a health emergency, back in February 2024, so it's encouraging to see the other opposition parties following suit.

At the time of our debate at that point, waiting lists in the NHS included over 762,000 care pathways, affecting 582,000 individuals. Almost 58,000 of those were waiting over a year for the first out-patient appointment. The waiting lists were getting longer and longer, creating new records four times in a year.

Since then, 15 months later, the situation has deteriorated even more. The figures now stand at 789,929 care pathways and 611,100 individuals awaiting treatment. This equates to an average increase of 56 people every day since our debate back in February 2024.

Over the same period, waiting lists have broken records another nine times, and every one of the seven regional health boards has stayed in special measures of one kind or another. Even worse, the number waiting over a year for their first appointment has increased to 73,200 people, despite the reformed target to remove all of these cases by the spring of this year.

So, despite the fact that we're on our third First Minister and third health Minister, and targets that change on a whim, the record of failure of the Labour Government here is consistent, ongoing and unacceptable.

And what makes it worse? Their utter refusal to admit failure, let alone change course. Take this: back in our original debate in February 2024, the then health Minister, now First Minister, dismissed the idea of a health emergency altogether. She couldn't see the point of it, even while over the border, her soon-to-be political bedfellows in England were pushing for the same declaration. That wasn't leadership. That was denial. That was spin. That was the tired, broken routine of a party that's been in charge of the NHS in Wales for a quarter of a century and run it into the ground. And if the First Minister truly believes that the Welsh public are only now losing patience with waiting lists, then I'd suggest that she starts a new listening exercise.

Eleven months ago, it was nothing but a public relations exercise, with no real listening taking place. Now she should spend the summer really listening to the stories of those still waiting in pain, in fear and in despair, because claiming that this Government is making progress in the very same week that waiting lists rose and two-year waits topped 9,000 is not just misleading, it's insulting. Her Government set a target of 8,000 by spring and missed it. That was already a back-pedal from the original goal to eliminate these waits by March 2023. This isn't progress, this is abdication.

So, who's going to step up where Labour have fallen short? It won't be the Tories, too busy finding new ways of being on the wrong side of history while their austerity legacy continues to haunt our services. And it certainly won't be the populist vultures of the far right, who don't even hide their ambition to sell our NHS to their mates and flog expensive insurance covers to the most vulnerable and those least able to afford it. It's Plaid Cymru, with real plans, real ambition and a real vision to tackle the backlog, to rebuild primary care, to shift towards prevention, to reform governance and to finally deliver a national care service. This is what leadership looks like, and it can't come soon enough.

I don't think we have a health emergency. We do definitely have a public health emergency, but I think that we should be proud of the work that our consultants in the hospitals are doing to become more efficient and to deal with the backlogs that have been accumulated as a result of COVID. But neither the Conservative nor the Plaid spokesperson seemed to want to talk about anything other than the waiting lists and the suffering. I absolutely accept some people are having to wait—

Jenny, will you take an intervention?

Yes.

I think it's a bit of a misrepresentation there, because I talked about dentistry, I talked about mental health, I talked about a number of different elements in my opening, so I hope you'll just acknowledge that on the record, please.

Okay. I'm about to get on to some of these other issues, I just think that you both are very, very comfortable talking about waiting lists and the problems it causes for individual patients, and I absolutely acknowledge that, we have to deal with that, but we also have to look at the underlying causes that are much more troubling—long-term issues that we need to start dealing with and that you guys just don't seem to want to talk about.

Thanks for giving way. I accept that the waiting list scandal is a symptom of a deeper problem in the health service, and that's to do with looking at the preventative agenda, looking at social care, looking at primary care. All of these things, we've put debates forward about them. You haven't supported all of them; we accept that, but your Government isn't getting to grips with that. Do you accept that?

I accept that, so far, nobody has wanted to debate in the long-form debates the prevention and early intervention issues that I want to debate in the long term. But it's good to hear that you do accept that there is a problem there, too.

So, we have to acknowledge that both the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales and the Auditor General for Wales are highlighting really clearly that we need to do more about prevention. We're never going to arrive—and nor do we want to sit on our laurels and say, 'Oh, we'll deal with the waiting lists', we have to have a much healthier nation. And that means that we need to start at the beginning. 

Yesterday, we heard about the progress that we've made on children's oral health. It is a really clear example of how early intervention has led to a massive reduction in the percentage of primary school children who have decayed, missing or filled teeth. This is a really important statistic. This is one of the most accurate ways in which we understand where the deprivation is and also where we need to put in extra support. But it is really significant if we are reducing by one third the number of pupils overall who no longer have decay.

Janet Finch-Saunders has her hand up wishing to make an intervention. Do you wish to accept it?

Yes, I accept the intervention. I didn't see you.

Janet, the intervention.

Yes, sorry, my mike hadn't come on. Just if I could ask the Member, Jenny Rathbone, that considering that she represents all of her constituents how she cannot see, just in her own constituency, the fact that we do have a health emergency. And also, she has cited the future generations commissioner. Only last week, I think it was, or the week before, I cited my concerns regarding his role. Does she not agree with me that the money that is spent on the future generations commissioner and the office—that money actually might help us better if that was actually going into the health service, instead of funding a future generations commissioner?

Thank you for putting forward that proposition. I fundamentally disagree with that. Fundamentally. 

But we can't just wait until children get into school, we have to intervene a lot earlier, and that does involve the health service. We need to support people better antenatally, we need to support people better postnatally, and as I mentioned yesterday in my intervention, it's not just about measuring children's teeth once they've got teeth, what are we doing to protect children's teeth before they emerge from the gums? So, I hope that the health Secretary in his response will be able to tell us what the role of health visitors is in advising parents to put only water or milk into a bottle and to never put these fizzy drinks into a bottle, because that is guaranteed to give a child tooth decay.

I also want to talk about the fact that the reason that we are so sick is a deliberate attempt—well, a deliberate action, by the food industry, who are acting just like the tobacco industry, to constantly be flogging food that is killing us. Wes Streeting, I'm glad to say, has started to talk about the cost that this is burdening the health service with, and if we don't take firm action to not just ask nicely of the food industry to change the way in which they are promoting foods that are killing us, but to—. Also, I think there should be some fiscal incentives on them to change.

People in all our communities, particularly our poorest communities, need access to clean, fresh food, unadulterated by additives, because we know that this is rapidly becoming the main cause of early death, as it presents itself in diabetes, it presents itself in heart disease and it presents itself in other conditions—chronic obstructive pulmonary disease—as well. We absolutely have to grip this one, and we need to start having to ensure that every community has access to fresh food—

Jenny, I've given you additional time.

—and a healthy diet. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Health is one of the top issues that constituents get in touch with me about, and I'm afraid to say it's for all the wrong reasons. It is clear that successive Labour Governments have failed to address the challenges within our health service over the years. If anything, things continue to go from bad to worse under Labour's watch, and, perhaps more worryingly, failure within the Welsh Government to turn things around seems to end in promotion. Mark Drakeford, Vaughan Gething and Eluned Morgan all presided over the health brief, failed to deliver successful results, and ended up being First Minister, albeit as a brief stint for one of them. Perhaps that's why the current postholder might have jumped at the chance to be health Minister. Second time lucky, eh, Cabinet Secretary?

NHS treatment lists remain shamefully high, with just shy of 780,000 patient pathways open, and that's the equivalent of nearly one in four people. In my view, the Welsh Government should hang its head in shame over that statistic. The latest figures show that two-year waits for treatments are up in Wales again to 9,600, whereas across the board in England it's just 171.

Just 50 per cent of red calls, the most serious, received an emergency ambulance response within the eight-minute target time, down from the previous month, and we are still nowhere near hitting the target of 95 per cent of patients waiting fewer than four hours in Welsh A&E departments.

That's the grim picture nationally, and, locally, I'm afraid it's no better. In my region of south-east Wales, we have more than 141,000 patient pathways within the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board, with 14,716 patients waiting over a year for the first appointment. A staggering 24,666 patients have been waiting longer than a year for treatment in April 2025, and nearly one in five patients are waiting longer than a year. Not only that, 374 patients were waiting more than two years for treatment in April 2025.

The Grange hospital has 57.5 per cent of patients waiting fewer than four hours in its emergency department, the fourth worst in Wales. Shockingly, 1,115 patients were waiting more than 12 hours at the Grange in May this year, which works out to be 15 per cent of the total patients seen at the department. These aren't just statistics. These are my constituents languishing in pain in the waiting room, on the waiting list, for treatment, and this is utterly unacceptable.

As I said, issues relating to our health service—and I must stress, they are not at all aimed in any way, shape or form at the dedicated staff who work under immense pressure and in challenging conditions—are indeed the most common topic of discussions that constituents get in touch with me about. I want to share some examples of the abhorrent situations real people are facing here in Wales. This is just a simple snapshot of some of the cases I've come across since becoming an MS in 2021.

A constituent forced to wait eight hours at the back of an ambulance after having a stroke. An 86-year-old constituent having to wait eight hours in the cold and rain, having suffered a nasty fall in a retail park. A 65-year-old constituent forced to wait for 37 hours at the Grange A&E department with a suspected bleed on the brain. Twice, the Grange hospital has released the wrong body to families. One family had to hold a second funeral after cremating the body of a different person. A constituent suffering a heart attack facing a five-hour wait for an ambulance.

Constituents being treated in unacceptable locations within hospitals, such as armchairs, corridors and cupboards, are increasingly common in my inbox. Perhaps one of the most upsetting cases I have dealt with is one that I mentioned here in this Chamber before, and I feel that I should mention it again, that of a 98-year-old constituent who faced a 14-hour wait for an ambulance after falling at home. Two days after initial contact, her condition deteriorated, an ambulance arrived at her home and took her to the Grange, where she faced a nine and a half hour wait in an ambulance before being admitted to hospital. She was transferred then to the Royal Gwent, where a doctor phoned my constituent’s son, who happened to be just outside in the car park, to tell him to hurry to the hospital because his mother didn’t have much time to live. After entering the hospital a short while after the call, he was informed that, in actual fact, his mother had died four hours prior to making the call.

If horrifying and tragic accounts like these aren’t enough for the Welsh Government to realise that something is horribly wrong and declare a health emergency, then I really don’t know what else it’s going to take. I sincerely hope that the Cabinet Secretary takes on board all of the contributions made here today in the debate and acts accordingly. Thank you.

I’ll be supporting the motion that calls on the Welsh Government to declare a health emergency. Our health services have been in crisis for many years, and recognising the position that we’re in is the first step to addressing the situation. Of course, each time that we see the waiting list statistics published, the Welsh Government, each time, attempts to put a positive spin on those figures. But the reality is that the Welsh Government continue to miss their own targets each time they are published and there is no prospect, sadly, of them hitting their own targets.

Further frustrating is when the Welsh Government publish misleading information about Powys patients' waiting times. The Welsh Government, only in May, declared that Powys Teaching Health Board have no patients waiting more than two years for treatment. That is untrue and the Government know it’s untrue, yet they continue to peddle that misinformation. The Welsh Government, when talking about Powys patients, should do so reporting the situation correctly. Of course the Welsh Government know that most patients in Powys receive their treatment over the border in England, or in other hospitals in other parts of Wales. Of course it’s true that no patient in Powys is waiting for treatment in a district general hospital in the county, because there aren’t any. So, this shows—this shows—the fundamental misunderstanding of how health services are commissioned and patients receive healthcare services in Powys.

I want to talk to the Labour Government’s amendment today. The Government claim that they are addressing the issue of improving waiting times. If the Government were serious about cutting waiting times in Wales, they would be making use of the available spare capacity in England—spare capacity just over the border. There is spare capacity in Hereford, in Oswestry, in Shrewsbury and Telford—[Interruption.] Do you want to make an intervention?

Thank you. It's just, from my experience—. I've got family and relatives and friends that live across the border and they've been telling me stories there about corridor care, which I've heard previously from Mabon, and issues about waiting in ambulances as well. So, I just know that it's not perfect across the border, to compare it. 

So, I didn't say it was perfect across the border. I think what you're talking about is emergency care, which I accept, but we're talking about treatment, planned treatment. That's what I'm talking about. And we know that what I've just said is correct, because Powys Teaching Health Board have asked providers in England, in those hospitals I just mentioned, to deliberately slow down treatment despite there being capacity to treat them. And we're talking about planned care, not emergency care. So, I understand why you make the point.

But why did Powys Teaching Health Board make that decision? They made that decision, according to them, as they needed to undertake this action to respond to the financial expectations set out by the Welsh Government. This is not about a lack of capacity in health services across the UK, it is purely a financial decision. And of course, I know that the Petitions Committee debated this very issue about Powys waiting times earlier this week, following a petition submitted by Joy Jones. It is indefensible, I think, to ask providers in England to slow down the delivery of care for Powys patients, despite there being sufficient capacity. It is completely unacceptable to treat Powys patients as second-class citizens. Of course, when I've raised this with the First Minister, with the health Cabinet Secretary, at times, both of them have said to me that this is not acceptable. The First Minister has said—in committees, in this Chamber and in statements to the press—that what I have just outlined is unacceptable. Yet the reality is that the Government are accepting that position. They are accepting that Powys patients will wait longer than English patients when being treated in the same hospitals and when being seen by the same health professionals, simply because they live in Powys.

Last month, the health Secretary made an announcement that £120 million will be provided to help cut waiting times. I thought, 'This is good news. This must be good news for Powys patients.' This is mentioned, of course, also in the Government's amendment today. In a written response to my written question this week, the Cabinet Secretary confirmed that, of the 200,000 appointments mentioned to reduce the overall size of the waiting list, none—none of these—would help Powys patients waiting for treatment in English hospitals. Zero.

The unique geography of Powys means that more of its residents are closer to hospitals in England than they are to hospitals in Wales. Indeed, the only hospital in mid Wales, of course, is Aberystwyth, which of course is threatened at the moment with the downgrading of vital stroke services. Twelve thousand Powys patients are currently waiting for treatment in English hospitals. Those patients will, quite rightly, feel short-changed by the Government's announcement, which the Government has admitted themselves will not include any help for them.

As I come to a close, I want to, in one sentence, say what I think the Government should do. I'll put this in a question to the Cabinet Secretary. Will he use part of that £120 million fund that he announced just 13 days ago to ensure that Powys Teaching Health Board is funded to a point where it is able to buy healthcare capacity in England, based on English waiting times targets?

I want to start by thanking James Evans and, obviously, my group for putting forward this motion for debate today. This motion put forward by the Welsh Conservatives is simple for a reason. All it is asking us to do, really, is to call a spade a spade. We only have to look at the NHS waiting lists, our A&E waiting times, our ambulance wait times, our dentistry wait times, our mental health wait times, to know that Wales is in a health emergency. Everyone in Wales can see that, other than, it seems, our Welsh Labour Senedd Ministers.

Anyone who has interacted with our health service knows that it is stretched to breaking point, with patients and staff at their wits' end. The staff work incredibly hard in very difficult circumstances, and they deserve as much credit as we can give them. We know that, once you get that treatment, the treatment is excellent. It is just getting in the system for that treatment that's the struggle.

We've heard from our health spokesperson, James Evans, about the shocking state that our health service is in in Wales. Specifically, in my region, one in five Aneurin Bevan health board patients wait over four hours in A&E departments. I, myself, have been in that A&E department and witnessed 18-hour plus waits a few times in the last couple of years. There have been critical incidents declared at the Aneurin Bevan health board, following sustained pressure and demand. There are also still hundreds of two-year waits at the health board, and the waiting list for community paediatrics has increased 117 per cent from 2015 to 2024. Natasha Asghar has, eloquently, already put and laid out the stark statistics and examples from our region, so I won't repeat. But I will reiterate just how appalling things have gotten in our region and across Wales.

What is genuinely concerning, Cabinet Secretary, is that this Welsh Government don't recognise the scale of the problem, and they don't even seem to think that they're responsible for it. Yesterday, I heard the First Minister say that the health Minister was breathing down the necks of the people responsible for two-year waits in Betsi Cadwaladr health board. The people responsible for our health service, and those extremely long waits across Wales, are sitting in this room or in Cathays Park. It is the Labour Welsh Government that is responsible for our chronic A&E waits, and our ambulance waits, and waits where, as James Evans said earlier, people are dying while waiting for an ambulance, or lying on the floor for unacceptable hours—the elderly waiting for an ambulance. This Government doesn't even blink when it wants to spend £120 million on more Senedd Members, when what Wales really needs is more doctors and nurses.

There are positives across Wales. I was delighted to recently visit the Velindre@Nevill Hall radiotherapy unit back in March, in Abergavenny in my region, which is much needed and very welcome, but it's taken an awful long time for people in my region to receive that cancer care that they deserve. We face huge—

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, of course.

I just want to bring us back to the over-medicalisation of issues, because we could have lots more doctors and lots more nurses, and we would still have this problem if we don't deal with some of the causes. One of the most shocking facts I learnt today is that, as a result of all the enthusiasm for injections to resolve obesity, which are being flogged on the internet without any checks on people's suitability or the long-term impact on their health, we now in Cardiff have three to four admissions every single day of people who have taken these injections that they've bought on the internet, and these are people who are going to be preventing somebody having the planned operation that they may need. I'm glad to see Altaf Hussain is nodding and recognises that this is a problem. We have social issues that we have to deal with. We're not going to deal with it by just having more doctors and nurses.

Yes, thank you for your intervention, Jenny. On that specific issue, I think those injections were to try and help with different health reasons, weren't they? People are using them for obesity, but that's not what they were intended for. There does need to be greater information out there about them, and that is something that I don't think any of us would deny is needed.

But you also talk about prevention, which is extremely important. I don't think anyone in here would deny the fact and wouldn't recognise the fact that we need to focus on prevention, but where is this prevention agenda that we hear so much about? I haven't seen anything of it, and it certainly doesn't translate into good statistics, does it? And those statistics are important, that we're all talking about today. They are very important and they paint a very stark picture about how your Government has failed over the past two decades at putting health on top of the agenda. It's an embarrassment compared to the rest of the UK, how we're dealing with things in Wales.

We need to get people out of hospital and into the community quicker. We need to free up those beds, and we need to get people in that community. That will help with that pressure on A&E. We can do that by putting more cash in the right places. It's all very well putting your fingers in your ears, Cabinet Secretary, but that won't get the waiting lists down or make ambulances arrive faster, or A&E waits shorter. Not using the English NHS, as we've just heard, which has been offered, just because they're English and you don't want to ask for help is just appalling when we are in dire need of help.

Declaring a health emergency will go some way to showing that this Welsh Government understands the magnitude of the issue that we're facing in Wales. Maybe then you'll drop your vanity projects and the distractions and focus on the efforts of our ailing health service for the good of patients and staff alike across Wales. The people of Wales have suffered for far too long. Your record on health is nothing short of an embarrassment. So, please, I urge everyone in this Chamber to support our Conservative motion today.

The UK national health service has often been ranked the best healthcare system in developed countries, and we must value it. Prior to 2010, there was an uplift of about 6 per cent from the Labour Government, and this reflects data from 2010 to 2013, which is before the underfunding had made a significant impact, but continued Tory austerity over many years tore at the fabric of our society. Health funding did not rise with inflation or need, pay rises were low, at 1 per cent, and workers were stretched. The service was fragile when COVID attacked, sending waiting lists into a seven-year high, which we are still recovering from.

Those austerity cuts also weakened and stretched public services, including social care, housing and preventative services, such as public protection and leisure, to breaking point. Health isn't just about the NHS; it's about access to fair employment, good work, a healthy standard of living, healthy and sustainable communities, good food—Jenny—tackling racism and discrimination and their outcomes, as well as pursuing environmental sustainability and health equity together. These are the Marmot principles from Sir Michael Marmot, the public health expert, which are being taken on board as Wales becomes a Marmot nation.

There are increasing demands from demographic changes. Many people choose to retire in north Wales, for example, and there are consequences arising from obesity, long-term chronic health problems, rurality and people living longer, and investment being needed in new technology and buildings. But this does not mean this is a health emergency.

Thank goodness, a year ago we had a change of UK Government that has turned the taps on. Waiting lists are coming down. We have a new orthopaedic hub being built in north Wales, which will transform elective orthopaedic services and provide benefits for patients, staff and the wider north Wales community by delivering a planned 1,900 procedures a year. We also have discharge, recover and access beds opening at a new facility in Flint, new community facilities in Denbigh and Bangor, and hopefully this year, investment in the Royal Alexandra Hospital at Rhyl.

Over the last couple of years, we've seen real, positive change at Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, with a promised stabilisation under new leadership. It's going to take a while to get to where we need to be. The health board is a big, complex umbrella organisation and change takes time to embed. But thanks to the Welsh Labour Government, we have seen significant investment to increase recruitment into the health board, as well as the north Wales medical school at Bangor University, and nursing and allied health professional training at the new medical facilities at Wrexham Glyndŵr. [Interruption.] However, retention remains an issue as morale continues to be affected. 

Thank you. I hear your impassioned plea there for more investment in our NHS, and I wouldn't disagree with that, but why is it that Wales, under this Welsh Labour Government, was the only part of the United Kingdom ever to cut an NHS budget, if funding our NHS is so important?

Okay. Can I just say, I was a councillor at the time? And one year, okay, money went into social healthcare because it was on its knees. Now, health isn't just the national health service, the NHS; it is also social healthcare. It was on its knees because of austerity and cuts from the Conservatives into public services. Thank you very much.

We need to also look at working conditions, provide more family-friendly hours and job shares, rather than the 12-hour rolling shifts. We also need to look at accommodation for staff, so we can employ people and so that they can actually live in the area as well. It's difficult to recruit when there is no available housing. A whole-system approach is needed.

I refuse to talk down our wonderful NHS. I am really pleased we've got it here. If politicians continue to talk down the health board, it will continue to struggle to recruit people. The NHS is its staff. It is terribly demoralising. We must celebrate their efforts and successes and not forget the many people who receive excellent care day in, day out. I never hear about the great work that goes on. I know we all get casework of when situations get really bad for people, but we never hear about the positives. We need to speak about them. We must protect healthcare free at the point of use and put in the necessary investment to ensure our NHS is sustainable.

I'm really concerned that both the Conservatives and Reform believe there are further efficiencies to be made in our public services. There aren't. Attempting to run it into the ground so that privatisation is the only option is not the right way. The health board does face ongoing challenges, and it recognises that people are frustrated and concerned by waiting times, but Betsi has made real inroads in reducing some of the waiting times for the longest waiters, and will continue to prioritise reduced waiting times as we move forward. It is also a Welsh Government priority, and £120 million has been allocated to cut waiting times and the overall size of waiting lists. Thank you. 

It's a pleasure to take part in this debate this afternoon and to join my colleagues in calling for the declaration of a health emergency. I'm keen to make the case for why the situation in our health service is an emergency and should be the Welsh Government's No. 1 priority. I'd like to speak up for my constituents, for patients and, as a former NHS worker, for our healthcare workers, who are not just facing challenges.

The Welsh NHS is in crisis, and in my constituency, that crisis couldn't be any clearer than in Glan Clwyd Hospital. Glan Clwyd now has the worst waiting times across the whole of Wales, and patients in my constituency are waiting hours in A&E and sometimes years for routine operations. Just this morning, patients at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd A&E were waiting over six hours, and that's on a good day. Behind each of these statistics is a real person, and I hear harrowing stories in my constituency surgeries from patients at Glan Clwyd Hospital.

There are 790,000 pathways in Wales, with an eye-watering 200,000 of them being within the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. The situation for children is equally dire, with 481 under-18s in Betsi now waiting over two years for care, part of the 1,016 per cent increase in community paediatric waiting lists since 2018.

We just cannot go on like this. The Welsh Government have declared a nature and climate emergency; we now need to declare a health emergency in Wales. Unlike the trendy nature and climate emergencies championed by the establishment, this crisis lacks glamour but demands urgent action, and means more preventable deaths, prolonged suffering and eroded trust in the NHS: real consequences for real people unfolding every day in our communities. Declaring a health emergency is an honest admission that the system is failing and that extraordinary measures are needed.

This is about maintaining a level of dignity people expect of us. No-one in a first-world country should have to put up with the waiting times Welsh people have had to endure under the Welsh NHS. And if we were moving in that direction I may feel differently, but we’re not, with two-year waits up to 9,600 across Betsi Cadwaladr and an almost 15 per cent rise from the previous month.

Declaring a health emergency is a sign that the Welsh Government cares enough to act to put the health of the people before political convenience. People are told time and time again that things will improve. The Welsh Conservatives have called for a maximum one-year wait, fast-track surgeries, a seven-day GP service, new surgical hubs and a real recovery team reporting directly to the Cabinet Secretary. These are tangible steps that go beyond targets and more money. The chief executive of the Welsh NHS has called for a response on par with the COVID-19 pandemic, and I agree, because there is a crisis that needs a similar response.

As I do have time, I will respond to the comment made by the Member for North Wales on the North Denbighshire Community Hospital, in that it's an absolute watering down of what the people of Rhyl and Prestatyn were initially promised over 10 years ago. The Member herself has been relatively silent over this matter for a long period of time, since it's been raised many times in this Senedd Chamber—[Interruption.] I will just finish my sentence. But then progress is being made, and now the Labour Party are trying to come up smelling of roses—

Will you take an intervention?

The reality is the fact that what the people of Rhyl and Prestatyn were promised over 10 years ago has not actually been delivered, and the delay in actually building the thing itself. Yes, I will give way.

Okay. The reason why it wasn't able to progress was because of inflationary costs caused by your UK Conservative Government. There was no capital funding coming forward until the UK Labour Government took power, and some capital funding has come across now to the Welsh Labour Government, making capital funding available. So, I'm hoping that this window of opportunity is available to now push forward with the Alexandra hospital.

When it was initially planned it was a fraction of the cost, and if that hospital had been delivered as promised at the time, it would have remained a fraction of the current cost. Yes, inflation of course, and price rises will always increase, of course they will. That's the nature of the economy. But if that had been delivered in 2013, 2014 as initially promised, they would have had that hospital as promised for a fraction of its current price. That's the reality, and the Labour Party have failed my constituents in the Vale of Clwyd, and that's probably why you lost the seat in 2021.

The Cabinet Secretary now to contribute to the debate. Jeremy Miles.

Diolch, Llywydd. This afternoon we find ourselves indulging once again in the opposition's favourite sport, kicking the NHS from pillar to post. This time, their game of political football with the NHS is wrapped up not in the well-worn call for a public inquiry, but in demands today for a declaration of a health emergency. But, Llywydd, it amounts to the same thing: an opposition that can only see the worst in the NHS and can't bring itself to praise anything, picking away at the fabric of this treasured institution on which we all rely, where hard-working, dedicated staff all over Wales provide fantastic care every day, care that makes a real difference to all our lives. Every accusation, every insult loosely dressed up as scrutiny, is a hammer blow to staff morale.

So let's take a moment from this unrelenting negativity to acknowledge some of that hard work today. It's thanks to the hard work—

Will the Minister take an intervention?

—and dedication of NHS staff that record numbers of people—

Will you take an intervention? 

Are you taking an intervention, Minister? 

I'm not. 

The Minister is not taking an intervention.

It's thanks to the hard work and dedication of NHS staff that record numbers of people are told they don't have cancer every year. One-year cancer survival rates are improving. Heart disease survival rates are improving. Long waits are at their lowest levels in the Senedd term, with more to come. There are more people with faster access to mental health care, and some genuinely leading examples of care—the first country in the UK to offer a confidential online sexual health testing service, to change the law on organ donations, to introduce '111 press 2'. Primary care reforms are transforming care so more people are being seen closer to home without the need for a hospital referral. And the South Wales burns and plastics centre in Swansea is providing truly life-changing care for people all over Wales, and large parts of southern England.

I heard the Conservative health spokesman say on at least two occasions, 'If that's not an emergency, I don't know what is'. So, let me tell him what a health emergency is: it's COVID, it's mpox, it's war, it's terrorism. And the public will look at this debate and see that in it—shamefully, on a matter of such importance—it's driven by a slogan and not by substance.

I'm acutely aware that there are issues in the NHS that need to be resolved. There are many instances where care has fallen short of the high standards that we've set. Coroners, Healthcare Inspectorate Wales and others have highlighted where this has happened and we've had feedback and complaints from individuals as well. And I'm committed to addressing these issues, together with NHS leaders, to ensure that people get better care and outcomes. But Llywydd, this does not constitute a health emergency. I've announced an ambitious £120 million to continue to cut waiting times and the waiting list this year—plans for Wales to tackle the root causes of ill health, to close the health inequality gap that robs so many people of a longer and healthy life, what the Tories regard as a divisive distraction.

And what do you think they say about our plans to help tackle and manage obesity, which, if left unchecked, could cause a tidal wave of demand and overtake smoking as the No. 1 cause of preventable ill health in Wales? Well, yes, you've guessed it, they don't like that much either. In fact, they tried to vote down vital regulations that will start to tackle the unchecked promotion and availability of foods high in fat, salt and sugar, just like they tried to vote down our budget, opposing an uplift to front-line NHS funding, including a pay rise for NHS staff. It's clear that this is an opposition intent on living up to its name and railing against every step that we take to support our NHS, to stand with our NHS staff, to improve access to NHS services, and to improve outcomes for people in Wales.

Darren Millar to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I was absolutely astonished by the response of the Cabinet Secretary, which I felt was very complacent and ignored the crisis engulfing the NHS that we all see every single day of the year. Frankly, this is a Labour Government that has run out of ideas, is running out of steam, is letting patients down and is letting the staff down in our national health service as well.

Let's look at the facts. We've rehearsed some of them today and heard them already, but it's worth reminding us of them before we press our buttons to vote. If you live in Wales, you've got a 50:50 chance of an ambulance turning up in time during a life-and-death situation. Patients are dying whilst waiting for hours for paramedics to turn up. And if they are fortunate enough to get an ambulance, they're then dying outside the hospital's front doors, waiting in the back of an ambulance in an undignified way for many hours. Some people that do get into the front door of the emergency department are sat on hard, plastic, uncomfortable seats languishing in pain for hours before they are properly seen in order to determine their situation and given the treatment that they need.

On top of this, we have a dental service in Wales that is failing many of our patients, too. People are having to pull out their own teeth with pliers because they cannot register with an NHS dentist, or travel all the way to Scotland from Wales because that's the only place that they can still register with an NHS dentist, too. There are one in four people in Wales on an NHS waiting list, and if you're on an NHS waiting list, you're more than 500 times more likely than over the border in England to be waiting for two years or more. [Interruption.] Cancer targets are routinely missed. Our waiting time targets are routinely missed. Our emergency performance targets are routinely missed. Our ambulance targets are routinely missed. We have critical incidents being declared by our ambulance service on a reasonably frequent basis. We have critical incidents being declared in our hospitals on a frequent basis. We have health professionals telling us we don't have enough beds, that we don't have enough staff because of the recruitment crisis that this Government is entirely responsible for.

So, the question is not, 'Do we have a crisis?', because we do; the question is why on earth this failing Labour Government refuses to accept that there is a crisis. Because if you don't accept that there's a crisis, you're never going to get around to actually fixing it once and for all. And that is the tragedy for us here in Wales. We have a Welsh Government that refuses to acknowledge the crisis engulfing our NHS and therefore will never be in a position to actually get to grips with it and fix it. Well, that's what we will do, given the opportunity next May. And your party, Cabinet Secretary, deserves the kicking that it is going to get in those elections next year. Because we are not kicking our NHS, we are kicking this Welsh Labour Government that is letting down our NHS and letting down those members of staff.

I'm going to come to some of the comments. Isn't it extraordinary—[Interruption.] Isn't it extraordinary that we have a former Cabinet Secretary for health, now the Cabinet Secretary for finance, who really gave away the truth about the Welsh Government's position on our NHS when he said that there are too many beds and too many hospitals here in Wales? While we have that frame of mind in our Welsh Government, again, we're never going to fix—[Interruption.] Did you say that you're right, Cabinet Secretary? I'm happy to take an intervention from you, if you want to repeat your assertion.

You've had many requests for interventions.

I have, but I'll happily take that. I'll come to others later. Cabinet Secretary for finance, no?

You can carry on, Darren Millar.

I thought I heard him say that he was right on that, and I was very interested to hear what he would say to defend it. But what I will say is this: if you're not going to listen to us, at least listen to the patients that write to each one of you as Members of the Senedd every single day. Listen to them about their experiences, because if you listen to them, there's no doubt our NHS is in crisis. Listen to the professionals, including your own chief executive of the NHS here in Wales, who told the First Minister, when she was the Cabinet Secretary for health, that we needed a health and social care response on a par to the COVID-19 response. She wanted a crisis to be declared in order that we could get to grips with the problems in our ambulance service. She didn't declare it; she ignored those particular calls. So, while you're putting your fingers in your ears and your hands over your eyes, people are dying, they're going blind, because they're not getting access to the tests and treatment, and we're in a situation where things can only look set to get worse. I've had two requests for interventions. I'll take one from Carolyn Thomas first and then Jenny Rathbone.

Do you not think that this rhetoric might put people off from calling an ambulance or going to see the dentist because of this scaremongering? That's how far you're going. And please take it back: the language of taking a kicking, that is not acceptable in this Chamber.

I've always been of the view that we need to be honest about the state of our public services, so that we can get to grips with the challenges in them and fix them, not deny that there are problems, which seems to be the approach of the Labour Party. 

I get plenty of correspondence from my constituents about health services, and I reply to them and I take action that enables them to get the service that they need. I absolutely never get people saying, 'I didn't get any joy out of the action that you took'.

Well, I'm very pleased to hear that that is the case for you. Sadly, it's not the case for everybody. A lot of people in this Chamber, when they write to their local health boards, do not get satisfactory answers, and that's why many of our health boards, I'm afraid, are in high levels of intervention or special measures as a result of the crisis that is engulfing our health service.

We need to be honest about the scale of the challenges. We need to be honest about the fact that not focusing on this issue whilst focusing on other issues, which, frankly, are not the priority of the people of Wales, is meaning that funds that should be going to our NHS are being diverted to other things. That's why we believe—and I'm pleased to see that Plaid Cymru agree with us—that we do need to declare this crisis in our national health service so that we can focus all of the resources of the Government on fixing this problem. Because if we do not have our health, then our country does not have anything. I urge people to support this motion today.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. 

We will therefore move to a vote, unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung.

I will therefore proceed directly to our first vote on item 8, the Welsh Conservatives debate, a health emergency. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no absentions, 26 against. And therefore, the motion is not agreed. 

So, we will now vote on the amendment to the motion. Amendment 1 tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, no abstentions, 24 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed.

The final vote is on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, no abstentions, 24 against. And therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

That concludes voting for this afternoon.

We will move on to our next item, which is the short debate. If Members could leave the Chamber quietly, if they are leaving.

If Members can leave the Chamber quietly, then the short debate today is to be introduced by Julie Morgan. You can start.

Diolch, Llywydd. I would like to start my debate today by telling you about my constituent Zach Stubbings, who sadly passed away in January of this year at the young age of 46. Zach was born in Cardiff, and after his GCSEs, he went on to do an apprenticeship with the Royal Air Force. He excelled and was the first in his class. He then went on to dedicate his life to serve in the RAF for 15 years.

Zach wasn't a pilot, he was dual trained as a winchman and a winch operator, and flew more than 2,000 hours on Sea King helicopters carrying out search and rescue missions. The work that he did was incredibly specialised. Zach absolutely loved what he did and he was very well respected by his peers and colleagues. He spent time stationed around the world, including in Cyprus, Hong Kong and the Falklands, and he spent the end of his career based at RAF Valley in Anglesey.

Zach was involved in dangerous rescue missions to floods in Eryri and over the Irish sea. He was also part of the crew called to help during the Morecambe bay disaster in 2004, when 21 cockle pickers were drowned by a fast incoming tide. He was also part of the team that trained Prince William when he was stationed at RAF Valley, and took part in Sea King search and rescue missions.

In 2013, while stationed in north Wales, Zach developed a rash. He'd just had a new flying suit issued to him, so he thought it was a reaction to that new suit. Blood tests were done, and Zach received the dreadful news that he had multiple myeloma—a type of blood cancer. Apart from the rash, Zach had no other symptoms. He was extremely fit and healthy and working as normal, so the diagnosis was a huge shock to him and his family. Zach chose to deal with his diagnosis in his usual positive way, and was adamant that he was going to get the best out of life.

Zach moved to Lincoln and received his cancer treatment in Nottingham. Zach received a stem cell transplant from himself, a process where they take out stem cells and then put them back in. He slowly started to recover and was medically discharged from the RAF, but then went on to work for the civilian search and rescue in north Wales. After a while, he decided to transfer back home to Cardiff, and this is where he met Anna-Louise Bates, who would become his wife in 2020.

Many of you will know Anna-Louise. Following the tragic death of her first husband, Stuart, and young son, Fraser, in a car accident, Anna-Louise donated their organs and many lives have been saved as a result. Anna-Louise set up the charity Believe in their honour, and this aims to spread awareness of organ donation and provide support for all those affected by organ donation. With her usual courage and strength, Anna-Louise is carrying on the fight for Zach. I felt it was important that we knew all about Zach and his life in the RAF, and with Anna-Louise, before I move on to the next part.

In June last year, Zach came to see me as his MS, because he discovered what he thought was a causal link between his cancer diagnosis and the fumes that he breathed in while working on the RAF helicopters for 15 years. He wanted my help with his campaign to spread awareness about this link and to help get an acknowledgement from the Ministry of Defence that these cancers were caused by the toxic fumes coming from RAF helicopters.

Zach set up his campaign in 2013 and he found that he was not alone. Many other veterans who'd worked on RAF helicopters like the Sea King and others like Westland Wessex, Puma and CH-47 Chinook helicopters had also developed different types of cancers. The group was called Fly Hard, Fight Hard, and had the motto 'shoulder to shoulder', and was set up with three other colleagues who were suffering from cancer to provide support and spread awareness.

Zach's health progressively started to deteriorate from about autumn 2022, but his determination and fight to get justice never waned. He wasn't just fighting for himself, he was fighting for other people who had been affected too. In fact, last year he was willing to meet with me and an officer from the armed forces department of the Welsh Government in his hospital bed. Unfortunately, just before the meeting, Zach's health rapidly declined, so it never took place, and then he sadly passed away in January.

The message about the supposed causal link between the toxic fumes from RAF helicopters and veterans being diagnosed with cancer is now spreading. There are claims that the MOD knew about the dangers of the toxic fumes from as far back as 1999, but this is yet to be proven for certain. There are more than 180 cases being dealt with by solicitors across the UK of people who are progressing action against the MOD. So far, six cases have been settled by the MOD out of court, and one of those cases was Zach's, but he still continued to campaign for others.

Sea King helicopters were taken out of service in 2018. The Westland Wessex retired in 2003, but the Puma and CH-47 Chinook helicopters are still in use. The MOD have referred to previous helicopter tests carried out on behalf of the RAF, which did not show indication that the air crew were being exposed to dangerous levels of contaminants, and I'm also aware of the independent medical expert group's seventh report on medical armed forces compensation, published last July, which concludes that the existing data does not meet the threshold for causation. However, the law firm that is representing the majority of the military personnel said that a report recommended modification to the aircraft to divert the exhaust fumes, but claimed that the MOD failed to act on these recommendations. 

Zach said to Anna-Louise that he would constantly be in the direct line of the exhaust fumes from the helicopters during his job, and that was the nature of the job. He said that his helmet would often be completely covered in soot, which he would also be breathing in. It was only in February of this year that the MOD started testing the exhaust emissions of in-service helicopters to ensure that they were meeting their duty of care for personnel.

So, what can we do here in the Senedd to help Zach's campaign? We need to spread awareness of the possible link between toxic helicopter fumes and veterans being diagnosed with cancer. We need to educate GPs to be aware of a person's military record and that this could lead to complications later in life. This would enable screening to take place much sooner. There needs to be clear signposting for veterans of what to do if they are diagnosed with cancer. Our new recruits need to be educated about the possible dangers. The Welsh Government needs to work closely with the MOD and press them to reveal the number of veterans who flew in helicopters, were exposed to toxic fumes and have consequently developed cancer. This is data that is urgently needed. The MOD has already started this process, but it needs to act quickly because people are dying. I ask the Cabinet Secretary to take this forward with his counterpart in Westminster to make an analysis of how many people are affected in this way. It is also very important that the personal protective equipment that is used in the helicopters by present serving personnel is sufficient. 

Unfortunately, Zach is no longer here to carry on his campaign for justice, so we owe it to him to carry on his legacy. I'm pleased that I've been able to air Zach's concerns here today and put them on the record here in the Senedd, in the Parliament of Wales. Diolch. 

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales to reply to the debate. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. And Julie, thank you for raising this matter and for sharing the tragic story of Zach and also Anna-Louise. Last week, we did celebrate Armed Forces Week, which was an opportunity for us to thank all of those who are serving, our veterans and their families for their service. The Prime Minister visited RAF Valley with the First Minister, the Secretary of State for Wales and myself to announce plans to strengthen the armed forces covenant. We welcome this and we look forward to receiving further detail. We are absolutely committed to the principles of the covenant, and we recognise that service places unique demands on people and, in return, it should not disadvantage people.

Now, last week, Members will recall my statement in the Siambr about the support that the Welsh Government provides to the armed forces community in Wales. This short debate is a further opportunity to acknowledge the contribution of our armed forces community, and particularly all of those who have flown on RAF search and rescue missions. We thank you for your service. Through RAF Valley and its training for search and rescue operators, and previously when crews were stationed in other parts of Wales, the Sea King was an iconic presence in our skies. 

Julie, this short debate relates to issues that you have recently written to me about, and it has also received—rightly—media attention. I'm pleased to see that the matter has been reviewed by the Ministry of Defence by its independent medical expert group and that it is being taken with the utmost seriousness. Now, its findings may not be what those who are campaigning are seeking in terms of immediate next steps. At this time, the expert group has not found a link and has not made a recommendation for occupational screening within the Royal Air Force. However, the language of the report allows for the possibility of a body of evidence to be developed. The US military has conducted reviews in this area and has reached a similar position, recommending further study. 

Now, medical care and occupational health for those who serve is very much a Ministry of Defence responsibility, with treatment provided through the Defence Medical Services and via the NHS as well. The settlement of all claims, compensation for injuries or conditions acquired as a result of service is also their responsibility, but we can and do add our voices from Wales, reflecting what we hear and see, and we rightly raise concerns and press for reassurance when responsibility for these matters lies elsewhere. This debate itself is an opportunity to raise concerns, and I am happy to raise this voice from Wales again with the Minister for Veterans and People. We meet very regularly, and I'm confident that we have someone in post with veterans and their families' interests very much at heart. Minister Al Carns is, remember, the most decorated Member of Parliament in living memory, someone who I know has a genuine passion for veterans' support and justice.

I'd like to turn to veterans and the health service. We have a responsibility to show due regard for the armed forces community in relation to healthcare. We want our NHS to provide excellent services for all, and, within that, we recognise that there may be particular challenges faced by the armed forces community. Our veteran-friendly GP scheme is an important part of that, developing their awareness of veterans and identifying former service as a code on NHS records.

In closing, I'd like to acknowledge the courage of all those who are campaigning on behalf of others, especially when dealing with their own health issues and, in some cases, their own losses. Courage and tenacity are qualities that I think we would all wish for ourselves, and it's humbling to see others display such attributes. Julie, thank you for tabling this short debate and showing your support for the armed forces community in Wales, who give so much to keep our country secure in a deeply uncertain world. Diolch.

Thank you both for the contributions.

That brings today's proceedings to a close.