National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item today is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language, and the first question is from Sam Rowlands.

I thank the Member, Llywydd, for the question. The memorandum of understanding between Creative Wales and S4C is just one practical example of the support that the Welsh Government provides to Welsh language media. The result has been the promotion of the language nationally and internationally.

Diolch yn fawr, Cabinet Secretary. You'll be aware that Global are closing their studio in Wrexham, including the Capital Cymru station, which will mean 12 jobs are lost at the site. Global, of course, will have their commercial reasons for this decision, but that will mean less Welsh language broadcasting, which, of course, is a blow for Welsh speakers and learners alike. So, Cabinet Secretary, what do you think the Welsh Government could do to make the media landscape in Wales more attractive for operators of Welsh-medium radio and television, not necessarily direct intervention or direct support, but making that landscape more attractive for them, both on a commercial and, perhaps, at times, on a non-commercial basis? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I thank Sam Rowlands for the supplementary question.

I, too, regret the decision that has been made by commercial radio broadcasters to withdraw from the provision of local content, including content through the medium of the Welsh language. Their ability to do that was created in the 2024 Media Act, which removed the obligations that were previously there to provide such content, and removed the role of the regulator, Ofcom, in overseeing any changes to the plans that those companies had submitted prior to winning licences. So, it is very much a matter of regret. The companies will say, as Sam Rowlands said, that it's a reflection of the rapidly changing nature of broadcasting, where fewer people are listening to conventional radio, and more people are getting their information and their entertainment from a wider range of outlets.

I think it probably is important to put it in the wider context of the success of Welsh language media in Wales—and it's been a very strong success as well—with Welsh language content heard on Netflix, where S4C has successfully sold series for which they've been responsible for broadcast in the Welsh language in America, in Canada, in Japan, in parts of Europe. And the memorandum of understanding to which I referred has been a really important part of that, between Creative Wales and S4C. At a much more local level, the Government has invested in hyperlocal media, following advice from Senedd committees, and through my budget, in my Welsh language responsibilities, we continue to provide and, indeed, to extend next year, I hope, support for papurau bro, which means that there is Welsh language content available through people's doors in those parts of Wales where Welsh is most often spoken. So, while I regret and regard as a backward step the decisions that have been made to which Sam Rowlands referred, I also think that there is very strong and successful activity in this area, which the Welsh Government continues to support.

I thank Llyr Gruffydd, Llywydd. The media is a big part of the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy and broadcasting has an important role in ensuring the Welsh language is visible in order to help us achieve our vision. It’s vital that we protect and develop the language in broadcasting and the media.

You're right—it is important that we develop the Welsh language in that context. But, as you mentioned earlier, the new Media Act, which came into force through the Westminster Government, has undermined those efforts, because, previously, commercial radio stations, under Ofcom rules, had to provide content that reflected the cultural nature of the area receiving that service. That was, therefore, the backbone of Welsh-medium broadcasting, particularly in areas such as the north-west of Wales. And now we see that Global radio is bringing the Capital Cymru service to an end. That station will disappear and, therefore, put an end to Welsh language commercial broadcasting in Wales, and that, of course, will undermine the efforts to reach a million speakers.

Now, you have listed a number of examples of what needs to happen, but would you agree with me that the best way now for us to restore the situation in this specific context, in terms of the new Media Act, is to devolve broadcasting fully to Wales so that we can safeguard those elements in the Welsh legislative context?

I thank Llyr Gruffydd for that supplementary question, Llywydd. We're very disappointed about the decision by Global to bring Capital Cymru's Welsh programming to an end. The Welsh Government recognises fully how essential Welsh programmes on the radio are to maintain the Welsh language by encouraging new learners, and their importance to audiences across Wales. When the Bill was going through Westminster, committees here and the Government—Dawn Bowden at the time—wrote to the Cabinet Secretary in Westminster to draw specific attention to the risk that the Bill posed to radio broadcasting in the area where we have just seen problems arise.

Of course, I'm aware of what is in the programme for government in terms of devolution in this area. I'm aware of what was in the agreement between the Government and Plaid Cymru at the time, and I did hear what Jack Sargeant said on the floor of the Senedd last week. He is still gathering information, looking at the evidence, and, as he said, he is open to a number of pathways to the future where we could better protect these things here in Wales than we could under the Act that has just been passed in Westminster.

Reports that the six nations championship will not be shown on free-to-air television from next year are a cause of concern. On this side of the Chamber, we have been clear that the six nations should continue to be a protected event, staying on free-to-air television because of its importance to our culture, our language and also to the ambition for a million Welsh speakers by 2050.

One of the greatest pleasures of the six nations is its ability to bring people together. Given the pressures facing the pub sector in Wales, perhaps there might be a very, very small silver lining to this news. The number of subscriptions needed by pubs to show live sport is staggering, and the costs are high. If the six nations truly is to move away from free-to-air television, will the Welsh Government consider what it can do to mitigate the financial burden on pubs in Wales that do show these games? Support would help towards the ambition of a million Welsh speakers by 2050. Thank you.

I thank Sam for the question, Llywydd. But the first thing for us is to protect the situation that we have at present, where people can view the games on tv. The problem is when we open things up to the market and think that the market is the best way to provide services for people. We can see that that is not true in the areas that are very important to the people of Wales. And the policy of the Government is to protect the current system, and that's what the work that we're doing will focus on. And, Llywydd, I think you've agreed to have a specific question on this subject later this afternoon, and the Minister will be able to, I'm sure, respond to the points that Sam Kurtz has raised.

I visited Ysgol Glan y Môr recently, and I spoke to one new Welsh speaker—a pupil there—who said that what would encourage him to speak more Welsh would be to play EA Sports FIFA through the medium of Welsh. Now, I contacted EA Sports, and they responded by saying:

'Unfortunately, it will not be possible for us to include the Welsh language in EA Sports FC 24. Although we publish the game in 85 countries, EA Sports FC 24 is translated into 19 languages’—

—adding that it would take two years for them to prepare a Welsh-medium version. There was a group of children from schools at the far end of the Llŷn peninsula here on Tuesday, and they said that they would be keen to see Roblox, Fortnite and Minecraft available through the medium of Welsh. So, there are plenty of things, through this new media, that we could promote. Would you join with me in putting pressure on these organisations—FIFA, EA Sports, Fortnite and Roblox—and try to get at least one of them to provide their game through the medium of Welsh for children who want to use those services?

Of course, Llywydd, I'm content to raise the points that have been raised by the Member. Having gaming available through the medium of Welsh is vital for people. As Mabon ap Gwynfor said, when the sector is changing so quickly, it's important for young people to have the things that they enjoy and which are available to them in English available in Welsh as well.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Sam Rowlands.

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, as the person holding the levers around taxation here in Wales, do you think we’ll ever see people pay less tax under a Welsh Labour Government?

Well, Llywydd, there are examples in the current very limited tools that we have in Wales where people in Wales do pay less tax than they do elsewhere in the United Kingdom. People in Wales pay less income tax than they would were they to live in Scotland. They pay less in land transaction tax than they would if they were living in England. So, there are examples already there of exactly the point that the Member raises. However, let me make the point to him: I don’t share what I imagine is behind his question, this idea that low taxes are by themselves a sign of a healthy society. We pay taxes, as people say, as the entrance price to a civilised society, because it’s the taxes that we pay that provide the services that the people that the Member represents, and we all represent, rely on day in, day out. In some ways, we have to rehabilitate that notion with people. The reason people are asked to pay taxes is that that creates the collective resource from which we are all able to benefit.

Thank you for the open response, Cabinet Secretary. Another notion that taxation could represent is the ability to trust people with spending their money in a way that they see best. I wonder what it is, if you could describe, that makes you think that people in Wales can’t be trusted to spend their money in the best way possible for them and that makes you think the Welsh Government can spend it better on their behalf.

I think that would be a real parody of what has happened in Wales in the period of devolution, Llywydd, because what successive Welsh Governments have done is to act in ways that leaves money in people’s pockets for them to be able to decide how to use it. If you live across the border, you now pay nearly £10 for every single prescription that a doctor writes for you. Here in Wales, we leave that money in people’s pockets. We leave it with them so they are able to make decisions about their priorities in their own lives. In fact, if you look at the record across the quarter of a century of devolution, what you will see is successive Welsh Governments acting to do exactly what the questioner has put to me.

Thank you again, Cabinet Secretary. Clearly, we’re going to be disagreeing on these things, and it’s part of the reason why we’re on opposite sides of this Chamber. We would argue that people should be trusted to spend money in the way that they believe is best for them, and the Government should provide the public services that are absolutely necessary to support them with that, not on pet projects and frivolous ideas. This last week, Cabinet Secretary, you recently shared that you believe that Wales has too many hospitals and too many beds. As the person responsible for the finances of the Government here in Wales, is that, therefore, an indication of the direction of travel that you’re going to persuade your colleagues to go down, to spend less money on hospitals and less money on beds here in Wales?

Well, the answer to that question is very obvious in the draft budget, Llywydd, because the department in the Welsh Government that gets the largest increase of any is, of course, as you would expect from a Labour Government, the health service. And that will be no surprise, because, over the period of devolution, that has always been the case. In the latest figures—figures published by a Conservative UK Government—Welsh health spending was higher than in England, grew faster than in England, and spending on social services in Wales was 37 per cent higher than in England. The facts speak for themselves. Here in Wales, we have always placed the highest priority on investment in our health and social care system. That is continued in the draft budget that will be before the Senedd for final determination on 4 March.

Llefarydd Plaid Cymru, Heledd Fychan.

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, when you were before the Finance Committee last week, you described the UK Treasury’s plans to distribute reimbursement on national insurance increases in the public sector as 'fundamentally unfair', as it could lead to Welsh public sector employers not being covered to the same extent as those in England. You also stated that the application of the Barnett formula, with respect to NI reimbursement, was not 'a commonsense reading' of the Chancellor’s intentions.

So, what’s been the response of the UK Government to date when you’ve raised these matters with them? And have you made an assessment of how this potential shortfall will impact on the Welsh Government’s draft budget?

We continue to be in dialogue with the UK Government on these matters, Llywydd. I stand by what I said in the Finance Committee, that if the help for public services is distributed through the Barnett formula, rather than actual expenditure being reimbursed, that would not be in the interests of Wales. I’ve made that point very directly to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, and will continue to make it to him.

Thank you for that response. Like everyone else, I'm sure, I want to know what they’ve said so far, and how hopeful you are, or are you genuinely concerned that they’re not listening? Because another concern that you’ve heard many times from me, and from a number of the other Senedd Members, is the concern regarding the impact of the national insurance changes on organisations in the third sector and charities. Of course, they’re coming to us talking about the cuts that they will have to make. So, I just want to know how you are working with charities and the third sector to understand the real impact of this on them. And what assessment have you made in terms of what the cost of a reduction in their services would be to our public services and Welsh Government targets in a variety of areas?

Well, Llywydd, what the UK Government are still saying is that they are working on the funding that will be provided to mitigate the impact of the increase in national insurance in the public sector. So, we will receive support from the Government in Westminster; the debate is how that support will be provided to us, and we are still negotiating that with them.

Of course, we’ve heard what people in the third sector, and others, are saying about the impact of the planned changes by the Westminster Government on them. That is why we are increasing the third sector support grant in Wales by 7 per cent over the ensuing period, and that is contained within the draft budget that is before the Senedd. But, just to be clear—and I was trying to be clear in front of the Finance Committee—I can’t find the money to help every department and every agency where the impact of the Westminster Government's changes will be felt. 

Thank you for that. Evidently, we want fair funding for Wales, and a reform of the way in which we are funded.

If I could pursue another element of your portfolio responsibilities, namely the Welsh language, last week, the results of the annual survey by the Office for National Statistics were published, which indicated that only 27.7 per cent of people aged three or older could speak Welsh—the lowest percentage that has been recorded for over eight years. This, of course, follows the decline seen in the last census. In light of the Government’s target in terms of 'Cymraeg 2050', this must be of concern to you. Of course, we’ve seen the response from the Government and the Welsh Language Commissioner, talking about the need for better data, and we heard that following the census as well. So, when will the data issue be resolved, because how can we measure progress, and scrutinise the progress of the Government, in terms of the 'Cymraeg 2050' target if we can't even trust the data?

Well, Llywydd, on that first point that Heledd Fychan made, there will be an opportunity for Plaid Cymru to demonstrate the importance that they place on investment in public services in Wales when the final budget comes before the Senedd, where £1.5 billion of additional investment will be available to public services here in Wales. I look forward to seeing Plaid Cymru supporting the budget on that basis.

I agree with what Heledd Fychan said about the importance of data. We continue to talk to the ONS, and work is progressing between those people working within Government and those working in the ONS to try to get behind the data that we have at present. Members here will be aware of the fact that the ONS has faced a number of problems recently in terms of data, and that is having an impact on the annual population survey, which was published last week. 

The chief statistician officer has recently published a blog setting out what she and the ONS have done and are doing, and setting out the work that will be done in future. I look forward to seeing that work, because I do agree with what Heledd Fychan said: without the data, it's very difficult to see what's happening on the ground and what we, as a Government and as a Senedd, can do to help to increase the number of people who can speak Welsh and, as I always say, who use the Welsh language on a day-to-day basis.

The invest-to-save programme has supported approximately 200 projects with an aggregate value of around £200 million. Funds are being used to support projects related to green growth and care-experienced children. Ministers are currently considering a large-scale invest-to-save scheme to help decarbonise our strategic road networks.

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his reply? I've been a long-time supporter of invest-to-save. I support the provision of interest-free loans with flexible payback periods to public services, with the aim of helping them to transform the way they work through supporting the direction of new and proven ways of working, increasing efficiency and effectiveness and lowering costs. Whilst large sums of money were spent using invest-to-save to fund the creation of Natural Resources Wales, most has been used to increase efficiency and reduce costs, such as light-emitting diode lighting. Can the Cabinet Secretary outline how the successes that have been achieved, especially in health, are being shared and replicated across Wales?

I thank Mike Hedges for that question and for his consistent support of the invest-to-save programme. He's absolutely right, Llywydd, of course, that the investments we are making in the public sector cover a very wide range of individual schemes in the green-growth area: solar photovoltaics, wind turbines, upgrades to insulation and to glazing. In the health sector, as Mike Hedges mentioned and will know very well, we have a solar farm at Morriston Hospital in Swansea, which was funded through the invest-to-save scheme because it will save the hospital £1 million every year in its electricity bills, and that's only one example of work that's going on in the health service this year. There are two decarbonisation programmes in Cardiff and Vale and in Powys Teaching Health Board, both of them using invest-to-save funding.

Just to say, lastly, Llywydd, that Mike Hedges made a really important point: the reason why the invest-to-save scheme is a success is that it's a circulating fund; the money comes back into the fund and then can be reinvested. So, while the fund has been topped up at various points, what it really relies upon is the success of schemes in releasing revenue, where that fund can be topped up and reinvested in future activity.

Cabinet Secretary, you'll always get Members on this side of the Chamber celebrating thrift and efficiency, and we welcome the invest-to-save scheme, and always have. You gave an indication as to the total investments that have been made, but what you haven't been able to share today, other than the saving at that one particular hospital, is the total savings that might have been generated as a result of the scheme. Is that something you're able to share with us?

I probably can't do that accurately enough this afternoon. I’m very happy that those figures can be made available to Members. The leader of the opposition won’t be surprised to learn that, during the COVID period, there was less of an ability on behalf of public authorities to come forward with invest-to-save schemes, and the money was targeted, therefore, at services for children. The advocacy service for parents, which is designed to make sure that the voice of parents is heard at the point when children might be on the edge of being received into public care, is an example of that. I have talked with my officials recently about, in the post-COVID era, beginning to build the fund back up again and to invite new suggestions from public sector partners as to how we could use this way, as the Member said, of making sure that public money is being used as efficiently as possible.

I thank Alun Davies for that, Llywydd. We have long argued that resources should be allocated across the United Kingdom on the basis of relative need. Our priority in the near term is to ensure that the current funding formula delivers for Wales, by focusing on budget flexibilities and fair funding for rail.

I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for that response. I think many of us, having watched the Chancellor speaking this morning on growth, will have noticed her focus on the south-east of England, and that’s likely to lead to more and not less equality across the United Kingdom. But we’re also aware that the UK Government has announced a review of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020, and, in announcing that review, has excluded financial assistance powers from it. That is likely to lead to more confusion and less coherence in the way that funding is allocated across the United Kingdom. And, at the same time, we saw the announcement last year on changes to the funding formula for Northern Ireland. I am aware, Cabinet Secretary, that the Northern Ireland Executive has just appointed Gerry Holtham to undertake a review of their own funding arrangements. Given all of those different matters, is it now the time for a more fundamental review of how we fund different parts of the United Kingdom, with an objective of fairness and reducing inequality across the whole of the United Kingdom for the future?

I thank Alun Davies. I too saw that Gerry Holtham had accepted an invitation from the Northern Ireland Executive to help them in conducting an independent review of the level of funding needed in Northern Ireland. I agree with what Alun Davies has said, Llywydd, that there could be merit in exploring a similar piece of work, and seeing the extent to which Professor Holtham might be able to assist in that, given the success of the work that he carried out here in Wales over a decade ago.

I believe there’s a question on the order paper later this afternoon from my colleague on UKIMA. I’ll give you a small preview in saying that the Welsh Government argued for the inclusion of financial assistance powers within the review of UKIMA. Of course, we’re very glad to see that review being brought forward, because it’s a piece of legislation that we have long argued does not operate in the best interests of Wales.

But to go to the fundamental point that Alun Davies has made, the purpose of funding flows across the United Kingdom surely has to be to ensure that spending power is fair across the different parts of the United Kingdom, and that an equivalent level and quality of public goods can be delivered in all parts of the United Kingdom. And that’s why differential funding is needed, because it needs to match need. The idea of that funding then is to make sure that a citizen in any part of the United Kingdom is able to expect an equivalent level of public service. And those of us who believe in the United Kingdom know that that is one of the fundamental building blocks of a successful United Kingdom to which citizens would choose to belong.

I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary will be aware that I've stood up in this Chamber on several occasions calling for the Barnett formula to be reviewed. It's quite clear that the Barnett formula has been a contentious issue for UK Governments of all colours, because any changes to that formula would see other parts of the UK lose out on funding, and understandably that is a difficult situation for any UK Government. Cabinet Secretary, given that there still appears to be no appetite to reform the Barnett formula from the UK Government, can you tell me how you believe this issue can be addressed once and for all so that there is some fairness in the way devolved governments in the UK are funded?

Llywydd, I remember the many occasions on which Paul Davies has made that case. Of course, in calling for reform of the Barnett formula he was echoing what Lord Joel Barnett himself called for many times later in his career.

We set out in ‘Reforming our Union’ our case for replacing the Barnett formula with a new rules-based funding system overseen through a new fiscal agreement. The key thing is—and this is the dilemma to which Paul Davies pointed—that such an agreement would have to be approved by all four governments in the United Kingdom, and there are different interests at stake between the four governments, so it is not an easy matter to see how fundamental reform of Barnett could be brought about.

What we've always done in Wales is to use the power of argument. We don't have some of the things that other parts of the United Kingdom can use to draw attention to their views. Scotland has always had the possibility that it might choose to leave the United Kingdom, which means that the UK Government will want to listen to what they have to say. We don't always have the same tools in our armoury, but what we've always had is the quality of the arguments that we're able to make. [Interruption.] Well, I believe you've tried that several times now at successive elections, with results that are plain to see.

What we have to rely on is the quality of our argument. To be ecumenical across the Chamber for a moment, I will say that it was the power of that argument that led to the agreement in 2016 of the fiscal framework with a Conservative Government in London. The block grant has benefited from that agreement by around £2 billion pounds over the period that has followed, and will be £400 million pounds higher in Wales's favour next year than had that agreement not been struck. That agreement mitigates the difficulties of the Barnett formula for Wales, but it doesn't resolve them. But it does show that you can make progress when the quality of the argument you advance convinces others.

I should just say that we'll happily put the tool of independence in the armoury of the Welsh Government after the next election, when the Government is led by Plaid Cymru. But in the interim, and when we're looking, of course, at the spending review the UK Government is going to be producing soon, the relative needs assessment that forms part of the way the Barnett formula operates for Wales now was set out 10 years ago, based on a report by Gerry Holtham from 15 years ago, using data from 24 years ago. Would the Cabinet Secretary accept that that assessment is now out of date, and would he convince his colleagues in Westminster that we need to update it? And if they're not convinced, can we produce it ourselves, so that the needs assessment reflects the Wales of today, not the Wales of a quarter of a century ago?

Llywydd, I'll set aside the hubristic start to the Member's question to agree with him that there is a strong case for updating the figures that lie behind the fiscal framework. The UK Labour manifesto at last July's election commits the Government to do that, and I look forward to seeing that being achieved. In the meantime, as I said in my original answer to Alun Davies, I think there is a case for us doing some work of our own, and, to the extent that he will be willing to be involved, to involve Gerry Holtham in that, particularly given the fact that he is going to be engaged in work for one of the other four governments of the United Kingdom.

I thank the Member for that question. The setting of budgets and council tax levels every year is a matter for democratically accountable local councils. I ask those local authorities to consider carefully the balance between maintaining services and the financial pressures on households, and to engage directly with communities on the decisions they make.

Thank you. For 26 years, you have held the financial levers here in Wales, and over that time, you did not, for three years, hand over the council tax freeze money that came from the UK Conservative Government. Conwy residents now are facing the alarming prospect of a third year of a 10 per cent council tax increase. They can't afford this. It's going to place an unbearable strain on pensioners, families and hard-working individuals already struggling with the cost-of-living crisis.

We're seeing public services in decline, public toilets closed, other essential services withdrawn. Quite frankly, Cabinet Secretary, my residents are fed up, and so am I. Some of them are having to choose between food and heating because of your withdrawal of the fuel premium they could claim. When will you look at funding our local authorities? When will you look at the funding formula, and will you consider going back and introducing a cap on how much local authorities can charge in terms of percentage increases on an annual basis? Diolch. 

Thank you for those questions. Let me assure the Member that had there been a council tax freeze in Wales, then the increases in precepts that local authorities would need to make now in order to make up for that would well exceed those that councils in Wales are reporting as under consideration for next year. Even the council to which she referred is proposing an increase of between 6.7 per cent and 8.7 per cent, not 10 per cent at all. The draft budget includes an uplift for local authorities in Wales of 4.3 per cent, more or less double the current rate of inflation. As the Government here has always said, we will always be willing to listen to local authorities' proposals for reform of the funding formula when local authorities themselves are willing to agree on what those changes would be. Until the day that local authorities in Wales are able to come forward with a coherent and agreed position, there is nothing with which the Welsh Government is able to have that negotiation. If they're in a position to do it, I look forward to hearing it.

I know that councils are facing sleepless nights trying to balance their books. They have had over 14 years of cuts to public service funding. It was a decision made by the Tory UK Government. I know that previously, Conwy council's leader wanted to use the reserves rather than raise council tax, and cut education funding, and those were decisions that were made that really impacted that council. But thank goodness now we do have a forward-thinking council that's looking to build up the services. It shows how important it is, because last week, when we had no mains water, they had no reserves left for resilience to help local people, and that really impacts. I would like to ask you, Cabinet Secretary, whether you would agree with me that if we're going to protect public services that are vital to our communities and to bring a decent life to our residents, we need to support councils and make sure that they're not chastised for everything they do. Because they're trying to do everything they can within a limited amount of budget. Thank you.

I began my political experience as a locally elected member of South Glamorgan County Council, as a number of colleagues on these benches did too, and I've always had an enormous admiration for the work that local authorities do—and that's local authorities of different political persuasions. Local councils really are the welfare state of last resort, and the services that they provide are hugely important to people who often are facing real difficulties in their lives. It's why successive Welsh Governments have invested in local government far, far in excess of the investment that has been made by Conservative Governments in England. Tough as it is—and it is tough, as Carolyn Thomas has said—our local authorities at least have the knowledge that they have a Welsh Government that is on their side rather than regarding them somehow as the enemy.

I was very pleased to be able to agree a 4.3 per cent increase in the RSG for next year, but since the draft budget was laid, I've continued in conversations with the Cabinet Secretary responsible for local government, and with others, to see whether there is more that we might be able to do as we come towards the final budget, particularly for those local authorities who are furthest away in their own uplift from that 4.3 per cent average. I'm hopeful that it will be possible to provide that further assistance by the time we come to the final budget.

As I explained to Heledd Fychan this afternoon, I'm not in a position to divert funding intended for devolved responsibilities to supplement non-devolved budgets. Next year, the third sector support grant in Wales will rise by 7 per cent, at a time when inflation hovers around 2.5 per cent. In that way, we continue to support the sector in challenging times.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response. I've attended meetings with a number of providers in my constituency and across Wales. There was a care home in my constituency that was facing an increase of £250,000 in their contributions. They provide services to the health board. We've already heard from Tenovus and Marie Curie in Wales that they are looking at an increase of around £0.25 million each because of this increase in national insurance contributions. The truth is that these bodies provide key services. If they didn't provide them, then the health boards would have to step in and provide them themselves, so that cost would fall to the public purse in any case. So, according to your response today, is what you're saying, in reality, because you can't compensate them, that we are looking to see these services either shrinking or disappearing and people suffering, as a result of a decision taken by a Labour Government in Westminster?

What I'm saying is that there are decisions are to be made. Every week we hear Plaid Cymru calling for more money for everything: the arts last week, local authorities, the health service, free school meals. At the end of the day, we have decisions to make. As I explained to the Finance Committee, I can't prioritise non-devolved budgets. The only way to do that is to use the funding that we have for the responsibilities that we have here on the floor of the Senedd. We've provided more funding, as I said, to the third sector and to the other sectors, to help them in respect of the general things that they're facing at present. I can't find funding for things that have come from Westminster where we don't have funding to do that.

Cabinet Secretary, as Mabon has pointed out, the increase in national insurance contributions is one of the biggest challenges facing the third sector in Wales. With already squeezed budgets, many organisations are struggling to make ends meet and are considering cutting services, staff, or both. Just this morning, I was informed that one of my local credit unions will be closing its branch in Port Talbot as a result of the increased costs of employing staff, adding further job losses to a town already struggling to cope. The Chancellor's decisions are having a devastating impact on employment and employers. Cabinet Secretary, what discussions have you had with the UK Treasury about ways to support charities and organisations who provide a public service not necessarily using public funds and are struggling to cope with the additional burdens placed on them by the recent UK budget?

Well, Llywydd, I understand the points that the Member has raised, and it is why, indeed, those points and others have been drawn to the attention of Treasury Ministers in London. I've raised them orally and I've written to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury setting out those concerns, the concerns raised by different organisations in Wales with us a Government. The Finance: Interministerial Standing Committee, the meeting of finance Ministers from the four UK Governments, will take place in Cardiff next month, and that will be a further opportunity for Ministers from Northern Ireland, Scotland and certainly here in Wales to raise these issues again with UK colleagues.

I thank Lee Waters for that, Llywydd. The draft budget aligns the revenue support and the capital investment available next year against the four priorities of the Government, funding a healthier Wales, jobs and green growth, opportunity for every family and connecting communities.

Thank you. Bearing in mind we had a £1 million settlement in capital spending from the last Government, the £175 million of capital funding delivered in this draft budget is 10 times the average growth in capital funding that's been made available over the last 14 years. That will allow investment in the maintenance of the NHS estate in new building and, of course, in crucial new scanners, equipment and digital technology. But, of course, every success brings its challenge, and you've said yourself that you're going to push the envelope further by maximising the borrowing capacity to add as much as possible to make up for that long drought in investment that we've had. So, what steps can be taken to make sure that the supply chains are able to deliver on time, that the skills are available to do that work, and that health boards are able to manage that expenditure on this fantastic investment bonanza that you've provided?

Well, I thank Lee Waters for that. He is right, Llywydd, there were two budgets in the last financial year. In the autumn statement, Wales received an additional £7 million for all our capital needs, and in the spring budget we received an additional £1 million for all our capital needs. The amount of capital we received in the October budget from the new Government outstripped all of that and, indeed, outstripped the increases in capital expenditure that we'd had from the UK Government over many years prior to that accumulatively—not just in one year, but if you added them all up, it was less than we received in October.

You do have to be careful as you turn the tap on on capital expenditure. We rehearsed this, I thought very usefully, in front of the Finance Committee last week, because there are other constraints, and supply blockages certainly are one of them—having skilled people on the ground able to develop plans and make sure that they're implemented. If you're not careful, what you do is you inject extra money into a constrained market and you don't get any more for your money; all you do is you drive up prices because the market is inevitably tipped towards the suppliers that are there. Now, we have over £3 billion for the first time to invest in capital projects in Wales in the next financial year. I have done my best to push that envelope to the further end of what I think can be successfully and efficiently spent in the Welsh public service, but it will need careful monitoring. It will need monitoring from the centre, as well as at local health board level in the case of the health service, to make sure that that extra money does result in the advantages to which Lee Waters pointed in his supplementary question.

I thank Hannah Blythyn for the question. Llywydd, £15.5 million is being invested in the national centre this year to provide opportunities for adults and young people to learn Welsh. The draft budget includes an investment of £16.7 million for the next financial year. This will allow the centre to expand its delivery in key sectors, such as education and health.

Thank you for that answer. I started learning Welsh again as an adult when I was living in London. My taid was a first-language Welsh speaker, but my nanna was from Liverpool, and they didn't speak Welsh at home, therefore my dad never learned Welsh. I learned Welsh at school in my constituency in north Wales, but I wasn't able to take an exam. However, last summer I passed my first ever Welsh exam. I took the exam at Coleg Cambria in Wrexham, and the year before I did a summer course there. I also have lessons every week through the Senedd, but it can be difficult to fit learning around life and work. Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, can I ask what is the Welsh Government doing to support more flexible learning for adults, from regular lessons to revision courses and online resources to conversations in the community? Thank you.

Well, many congratulations to Hannah Blythyn on her use of Welsh on the floor of the Senedd and, of course, for her success over the summer months. And thank you for the opportunity to highlight the fact that the National Centre for Learning Welsh does provide online, face-to-face or hybrid provision on all levels for learners. Providing a variety of opportunities ensures that there are opportunities available for everyone to learn Welsh in the way that suits them best. And in doing that, creating opportunities for learners to practise and use the Welsh language in their daily lives is crucially important if we are to create confident new Welsh speakers. Welsh teaching providers offer a range of activities to support learners, including Sadyrnau Siarad, coffee mornings and study sessions that are appropriate for people who are learning.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that session.

The next item will be questions to the Deputy First Minister and the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs. The first question this afternoon is from Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Diolch, Peredur. I attended our annual responsible dog ownership and breeding summit on 24 October. This collaborative work involves multiple stakeholders, including enforcers and campaigners for dog welfare and for public safety. Can I say I'm very grateful to you, Peredur, for agreeing to sponsor our partnership event in the Senedd in April where the achievements to date will be shared?

Thank you very much, and it's good to have that co-operation with you on this, and to see the work going forward. As you know, Minister, the issue of dangerous dogs has been something I have constantly raised in this Chamber. In recent years my region has suffered some appalling tragedies in connection with irresponsible dog ownership that has led to fatalities and jail time for offenders.

I was hopeful that the Government could introduce legislation in this Senedd that would compel responsible dog ownership, and I have previously outlined how that could happen within existing powers. With a packed legislative programme and the next Senedd election fast approaching, it looks like that ship may have sailed. In light of that, the next best thing your Government could do is run a targeted awareness campaign within the next 15 months, with support from organisations such as the RSPCA, who have long called for such action to promote responsible dog ownership across the country. This could have a big impact on increasing community safety, which should be a priority, along with protecting and improving animal welfare. It would also go some way to ensuring that there is a consistent approach and set of outcomes throughout the country, because, at present, it seems there are pockets of good practice but not uniform. Could you please give me an idea of what you're planning to do?

Thank you, Peredur, and also thanks to you and other MSs for your engagement and for championing this, because of the too many eventualities that we have had that have been terrible incidents, and they still happen, so we do need to address this. And you are right, we need to raise awareness, and in fact the RSPCA is one of the many stakeholders in that quite powerful partnership collaboration we have on responsible ownership. We have some excellent examples out there and we need to showcase more of these and then get them to be adopted, not as best practice but as common practice, and we've seen that within the meetings and the summits that I have attended. So, for example, I know we've discussed the local environmental awareness on dogs initiative within the Gwent police force area, and how we can extend that application across all forces within Wales, although some are doing a version of it but slightly different—that collaboration space and then share the best practice and learn from each other. The uptake of the responsible dog ownership courses, which, all credit to Blue Cross, are now working across all of our four police areas, are really powerful again, because they actually work with owners to identify early warning signals of irresponsible ownership and then to get into that space and work with them to actually develop responsible ownership approaches.

There's the influential work that is done by an organisation many of us know, Hope Rescue, in my own patch, in fact, near to Llanharan, in the community, and the support they give as well to mental health charities but also to dog owners, working with dog owners as well. And, of course, the key to this, actually, this collaboration as well, is also going to be bringing forward the Welsh Government-funded animal licensing Wales project, because that delivers a website, a new portal, that organisations and individuals can access—local authority, breeders and members of the public as well. And this also deals not just with responsible ownership, but also things such as illegal dog breeding, which is linked to this, and the raising of standards and conditions for breeding. So, there is much that we're doing. We need to sing that out louder and then make sure that this good practice is replicated right across the whole of Wales. But there's a tremendous amount of good work going on, and I'm looking forward to that event because we can showcase some of this.

I think we can all agree that responsible dog ownership means prioritising the welfare of the animal as well, and over the last few years, however, this Senedd has heard repeatedly how the greyhound racing industry fails to meet even basic welfare standards, and I have written to the Cabinet Secretary with the latest statistics regarding deaths and injuries on the Valley track. The Welsh Government's animal welfare licensing consultation saw two thirds of respondents in favour of a phased or imminent ban on greyhound racing in Wales. This provides new and irrefutable evidence of the strength of support for an end to this activity, with more people in favour of a ban than the licensing of greyhound trainers, owners and keepers, as proposed elsewhere in the consultation. So, Cabinet Secretary, please could you provide reassurances that the views of the vast majority of respondents will be your focus, while making a decision on the future of greyhound racing in Wales?

Carolyn, thank you very much indeed, and also for writing to me, and also for relentlessly championing this important matter. And there are others in this Chamber as well who have also been very outspoken on this issue as well. As you know, we fairly recently, actually, published the summary of the responses to the consultation we did on the licensing of animal welfare establishments, activities and exhibits, and we are looking forward to sharing the next steps as soon as possible. I can give you that assurance. You point to some of the evidence and the views that were put forward. Look, we firmly acknowledge the strength of feeling around the questions being asked, including specifically on greyhound welfare. It is important that we now take the time to consider all the evidence that has been put forward—including, as you say, you wrote to me the other day—and then we can actually bring forward our next steps as soon as possible. So, Carolyn, thanks for the way that you and others have championed this issue and have put forward evidence. You continue to do so as well. I am looking forward to sharing the next steps as soon as possible, having published that summary of responses quite recently, and then considering all the evidence and the views expressed within that consultation.

Thank you, Mark. The Welsh Government has now invested over £150 million in programmes like Nature Networks and Natur am Byth to restore our most precious habitats and our species at local and landscape scales. Indeed, Curlew Connections is one project that I know is close to your heart that’s received around £1 million to help reverse the decline of this very iconic species.

Yes, absolutely, and I was at the launch at the Royal Welsh Show. But the curlew you mentioned, embedded in the culture of Wales, is forecast to be extinct as a breeding population in Wales by 2033 without interventions. Due to the severity of breeding curlew declines in the UK and Ireland, there's growing widespread interest in the potential for headstarting as a conservation intervention to aid curlew recovery, with the release into the wild of birds that have been hatched and reared from eggs harvested from the wild. What consideration have you therefore given, or will you give, to the Gylfinir Cymru Curlew Wales paper, a framework for headstarting Eurasian curlew in Wales? Further, noting your meeting last month with a delegation representing the Gylfinir Cymru agricultural and environment scheme sub-group—after which they told me that you seemed to grasp well the multiple benefits that managing beneficially the curlew could bring to both the environment and people—what action have you taken following your recognition at that meeting that Gylfinir Cymru is an essential group with which to liaise, and your agreement to nudge the policy makers with whom they need to liaise?

Mark, thank you very much, and for the work that you're doing in championing this iconic species. We can sometimes be really pessimistic that we can do nothing on species like this, but I mentioned, I think it was last week, in a debate here, that I was out with the First Minister on the downs above Ogmore-by-Sea, and we were looking at one of the species that's also highly endangered, which is the high brown fritillary butterfly—a completely different species, but equally important because it's also linked to a type of habitat. There are three locations in the whole of the UK where this is critically endangered. There's only one where it's recovering—it's here in Wales, and it's because of long-term investment that we've done to turn this around. So, we can have hope.

Thank you for flagging the meeting that I recently had with Gylfinir Cymru Curlew Wales. I was delighted to do that, because I believe in working with people out there and looking at the evidence of what can actually restore and turn around the decline in curlews, as with our other species. There are significant challenges facing curlews. So, I'm actually going to be visiting later this year one of the most important curlew areas in Wales, to see myself upfront the excellent work that's actually going on on the ground now to benefit curlews, and, hopefully, I've got to say, to see and hear the curlew myself. I was at the event that you, and Alun Davies and others, sponsored last year; to hear it on the tape is not the same as hearing it in person, and too few people now are hearing this. The farmers don't hear it any more. We need to get back to that. So, I'm keen to work with the evidence. It was a good meeting. I'm very pleased to see new and innovative ways also that we are using technology to understand some of the challenges the species face. Mark, I'll keep that engagement going, and I'm more than happy to meet with you as well to discuss what we're doing in this space.

Cabinet Secretary, as we've discussed many times before, the Gwent levels are a very precious area within Wales, and partly within my constituency. They support a variety of species, as you know, one of which is the water vole. They were reintroduced at Magor marsh, and have since spread across the levels, and there is ambition to spread them further on the levels, perhaps accessing some of the Nature Networks funding. But, given that they're in decline in terms of the areas that have water voles in the UK, I think it makes it even more important that we have this reintroduction and thriving of water voles on the Gwent levels. It's but one example of their value for different species and biodiversity. So, would you agree with me, Cabinet Secretary, that it's very, very important that we protect, nurture and enhance areas such as the Gwent levels, and, particularly, protect them from the threats of unwanted and inappropriate development?

John, thank you so much indeed, and for the work you're doing in championing the water vole, and the importance of focusing on species is because from that species runs that protection of landscape scale and habitats as well. It really works. I think probably one of the most powerful innovations that the WEL—the Wales Environment Link—have done is to actually identify individual Members and say, 'That's your species—champion and protect them', and then the habitat flows from that.

And the Gwent levels are critical, as we know—they're vital to us; they're vital for the species and habitat, but they are also vital for our own health and well-being as well. And you mentioned there the Nature Networks programme, which I think has been a tremendous success in actually helping the protection and the recovery of sites, and actually building ecological connectivity between sites as well: there is the Gwent levels writ large—it’s not just individual patches, but the landscape scale. It’s had an enormous impact. It’s developed more than 90 projects, with over £54 million awarded since 2021. So, we are putting our money where our mouth is. When we declared very early on that there was a nature crisis as well as a climate crisis, we backed this to the hilt as well. And that works in partnership with Natural Resources Wales and the National Lottery Heritage Fund as well.

So, I think we need to keep on investing, keep the way that we do it under review as well so that we get the best outcomes. But, yes, I think we should be deeply proud of the work that’s gone on on the Gwent levels.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Llywydd. I note the Chancellor's comments about economic growth being more important than achieving net zero. I feel that seems a bit rich coming from a party that clearly cares very little for economic growth and yet claims to be the party for tackling climate change. However, whilst striving for economic growth, it's crucial that it must go hand in hand with our journey to net zero and not come at its expense; growth and climate action are not mutually exclusive—we can and must do both.

Rachel Reeves's, the right honourable's, remarks at Davos, where she dismissed concerns about expanding Heathrow and other airports, whilst prioritising growth, suggest a dangerous shift away from the UK's climate commitments. With the economy stagnating, the Government cannot resort to short-sighted, pro-business policies that do come at the expense of our environment.

Climate policy cannot be confined to a single department or treated as a secondary issue—it must be embedded across Government. Achieving net zero by 2050 requires seamless co-ordination across transport, energy, agriculture, housing, education, health. So, what are your views on the Chancellor's comments about prioritising growth, and do you agree with me that the UK simply cannot afford to treat net zero as an afterthought?

Janet, thank you very much for that question. I can speak for Welsh Government and the pioneering work that we’ve done here in Wales, preceding my time here in fact, in the establishment of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. That’s the paradigm; those are the pillars, those are the principles, by which we view all growth.

We’re also very keen, by the way, on growth, economic growth, but it’s sustainable economic growth that does the right thing for nature, biodiversity and the climate as well—it’s not trading off one thing against another; it’s doing all things. We want to see more pounds in people’s pockets; we want to see more businesses expanding. And in fact, the opportunities there within, for example, the circular economy and what we can do in Wales, or in the future of renewables, including things like offshore and so on, all of these have great potential. So, rather than seeing it as a trade-off of one thing against the other, I think, Janet, the gist of your question is right, which is they all go together and they’re unpinned in Wales by the well-being of future generations Act.

Thank you. One key area for collaboration that could drive economic growth and progress towards net zero is Wales's energy infrastructure. Wales's grid is simply not fit for purpose to meet the 2050 net zero target, with limited capacity causing delays to really good renewable energy projects. Despite initiatives like the renewable energy infrastructure plan, progress does remain slow, and critical transmission upgrades are uncertain.

The independent advisory group on future electricity grid for Wales met three times last year, yet there is little clarity on what tangible progress they have made. Can the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on actions you are taking, working with the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero, to implement the 23 National Infrastructure Commission recommendations?

Thank you, again, for that question, Janet. There’s good cross-Government work in this space, both with the current Cabinet but also with predecessors in this role as well. We’ve long maintained—. Sorry, I should say as well that this is work that is primarily within the space of my colleague Rebecca Evans, with the economy brief, et cetera, but I have a direct interest in this because of my role in driving forward the carbon agenda right across Government and the carbon budget agenda as well. So, all of us, as you rightly say—transport, energy, everybody—has to play their part.

We’ve been very clear consistently over many years that we need that connectivity to all parts of Wales, including the offshore potential that we’ve talked about, but also to parts of Wales that have not been able to benefit from that connection to renewables to date. We also need to look at those aspects, as Rebecca Evans has made clear, about local connectivity, local grid connectivity as well, so it doesn’t all rely on, if you like, the image of 80, 90, 100 years ago of one big network around the UK. There are some great innovations going on in that space.

One of the things that is clear and compelling is, as we strive to actually achieve carbon budget 2, itself very challenging, the acceleration that we will then need to do to carbon budget 3 will require significant expansion of our renewable energy and our decarbonised energy base in many different ways, and that will require that grid connectivity you’ve talked about.

Thank you. Planning, of course, does remain a significant obstacle. Recently, I held a round-table of all the climate change and environment stakeholders, and planning was mentioned by everybody, with bureaucratic constraints stalling both major infrastructure projects and smaller scale developments such as the ongoing 3m limitation for heat pumps. Additionally, essential minerals like copper are critical for renewable technologies. I’ve already highlighted this previously, that Wales has an unique opportunity to lead in the mining and processing of these vital resources, strengthening both our economy and energy transition. How do you intend to work with the energy and planning portfolio to remove these barriers, position Wales as a technological leader, and accelerate that shift to clean energy? Diolch.

Thank you very much, and it is a truly great question, because I’m really pleased to say the cross-Cabinet approach to delivering exactly the outcomes you’ve said has resulted—and my thanks to my colleague sitting to my right, as well as to Rebecca as well, and to Jayne in local government—in increased investment in the planning function. Because we’ve recognised that this is an obstacle, it’s a barrier to that sustainable growth that we were talking about, including within energy but also a wider range of planning issues.

I also made clear and had support from Cabinet colleagues in arguing the case that the other thing we need to unblock is the capacity issues with NRW over consenting and licensing as well. And I’m pleased to say that, both in revenue and in capital spending, we’ve been able to put significant amounts of money specifically into those functions—so, planning, licensing, consenting.

I think this is quite an exciting space, because if you can identify the obstacle and then decide you want to unblock it, and will in the means to do that as well, then you can significantly expedite the right decisions being made for sustainable growth—coming back to your first question—sustainable growth that also has the proper planning and environmental protections wrapped around it, but done in a way that will allow that growth to happen, particularly within our energy sector, which we know is a critical part of our path towards decarbonisation.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Diolch, Llywydd. Prynhawn da. I want to ask some questions, please, about forever chemicals—the contamination, that is, that’s been left on landscapes across Wales by what’s known as PFAS, these substances. These chemicals have been linked to severe health conditions like cancers, immune system disruption, even infertility. The extent, though, of the contamination in Wales is unknown. We know from research that the worryingly prevalent amount of this contamination in drinking water and in surface water could be particularly a problem, particularly maybe in hotspots like landfill sites, former industrial sites as well, sewage outfalls. What assessment, please, has the Welsh Government made of the extent and scale of this contamination in Wales, including in drinking water and surface waters, especially in those sites like former industrial sites and landfills, where they’re most likely to be prevalent?

Delyth, thank you so much. And this really is something that we do need to address, and we need to address it in Wales, but also as a UK and wider global issue. The increasing awareness of this means we have to act. We know that PFASs, the forever chemicals, are linked, as you say, to a variety of health concerns because of the accumulation in the body over time. It’s not one exposure; it’s that constant exposure that we have, especially at low levels. However, the toxicity of those various substances is not actually well understood, as you know, because you’ve been delving deeply into this. So, the UK Committee on Toxicity of Chemicals in Food is currently conducting an extensive review of the available evidence on the PFASs, and undertaking that very important health risk assessment as well.

Now, perfluorooctane sulfonic acid and PFASs—and I’m looking to my left here as well because I’ve got colleagues as well who are joined with you, like Jenny and others who’ve been pushing hard at this—have been identified as highly bioaccumulative. So, those two are listed as persistent organic pollutants under the Stockholm convention, to which the UK is a party. So, the use of these is prohibited in the UK, subject to certain time limit exemptions set out in legislation.

But to answer you directly on what work we’re currently doing, back in 2022, the Welsh Government's water policy team commissioned a PFAS literature review to understand the context and the risks that these chemicals pose here in Wales, and the report emphasised, not surprisingly, the need for additional further research. It provided a number of recommendations. It also identified a limited number of areas that present a higher risk of PFAS contamination in Wales, some of which have provided jobs over the years in urban areas and so on, and now we’ve identified there’s a risk there. So, in April 2023, the Health and Safety Executive published its regulatory management option analysis for PFASs. It is the most comprehensive UK analysis of these chemicals. It identifies the most common, most harmful uses of PFASs, and the measures we can put in place to control and manage them. And it does make a number of recommendations, one of these you’ll have come across before—so, for example, practical things such as limiting the use of PFAS-containing foams used by firefighters, but also things like textiles, furniture, cleaning products. So, we’ve got more to do in this space, and some of it is the evidence and the research, and some of it is the practical implementation of the recommendations.

Thank you. That’s incredibly useful. Staying with the same topic, if I could ask about accountability, please. Because these substances have a nature that is indestructible, the clean-up is going to have to be robust. There will surely be a part to play for NRW, but also for local authorities and the private sector, presumably. I’d like to know where you think the ultimate responsibility and accountability will lie, because the polluter-pays principle, of course, is important, but many of the companies that created the waste have disappeared, and, sometimes, the contamination can’t be traced because either the paperwork doesn’t exist anymore or it’s been destroyed, or it’s been lost. So, what measures will the Government put in place, please, to tackle the contamination in Wales in terms of holding the ultimate responsibility? Who do you think would hold that ultimate responsibility for monitoring, for regulating and, ultimately, remediating these sites?

Well, you raise the right questions, because, ultimately, yes, NRW have a key role to play in this. So do our local authorities within the powers that they have. But if those companies are still in existence, then they clearly carry a responsibility for helping deliver any clean-up of areas that are identified. But, fundamentally, we’ve got to make clear, as I’ve said here before in the Senedd, that local authorities have that duty now to identify contaminated land within their areas. It’s under the Environmental Protection Act 1990, Part IIA. Sometimes, if a site is proven to have a significant impact—so, for example, to controlled waters—regulatory responsibility can pass from the local authority to Natural Resources Wales. Now, we have in the past actually established funds. In the absence of somebody else to do the clean-up, we have established funds to assist with the remediation of land that is contaminated. This is slightly different from the wider piece of that sort of cumulative effect within the environment, within things that are around us every single day. Now, we don’t have that fund currently in place, but neither do we have a draw on it. We do not have people coming forward and saying, ‘We need contributions towards this’, but, in the future, who knows? If sites are identified by the local authorities, and that burden becomes clear, and the companies do not exist, we’re going to have to consider that. But I would say first of all, from an ethical and moral point of view, if the companies are still in existence, they should be contributing towards clearing up.

I agree 100 per cent with you on that. If the companies are still in existence, they have a duty to take on that responsibility. I would like to talk more about that fund and the possibility of reopening that particular source. But to return to the cost of remediating these sites, research suggests that, if we look across Europe—because, as you’ve mentioned, this is an international problem—clearing up this pollution over Europe over a period of 20 years would mean an annual bill of around £84 billion, and that is across the whole of Europe. Now, these isles alone could face huge costs in clearing these sites too. In Wales, as you’ve said, NRW would have a role to play in those examples where the companies no longer exist or where we can’t prove where the pollution came from. But NRW is facing substantial budgetary challenges. So, what do you think the costs could be? And do you think that NRW would have sufficient funding to face that challenge or do you think that we would need to turn to the source that you mentioned earlier?

Well, I’m pleased, when we appeared in front of the budget analysis for NRW, we were able to identify specific lines of funding that are going into NRW for particular purposes. This isn’t one of them, because, as I say, there isn’t currently the demand to draw on it. I maintain this position on the polluter-pays principle, that where you can identify the legal person that has polluted an area, they are responsible. They were under European legislation, and that is the maintained position now. But, too often, we have seen that the public purse has had to step in, not just NRW with their regulatory function but, actually, the establishment of funds, such as the contaminated land capital grant programme, which ran for six years after 2005. Then, we identified another draw on it, so it was re-established. We don’t have that current identified need for it now, but who knows in future. So, rather than speculate, if you like—and I’m not trying to be difficult or obtuse on this—if we identify there is a need for this funding, we have to do it, but the first point of call should be on the polluter. And then, after that, we need to look at it, because then it falls on the landowner, and often the landowner will say, ‘Well, I can’t do this either. I didn’t know anything about this’. And then the public purse steps in, as I look to my right there.

The other aspect on this is we do have to work, as you rightly say, with the UK Government and across the European Union and others, because we believe firmly in the polluter-pays principle and we hold to that, and I think we can do that by working collaboratively across borders.

Diolch, Sam. [Interruption.]—not personally. The Welsh Government is pleased to continue to support the Welsh wine industry through the Food and Drink Wales drinks cluster, together with the promotion of the protected geographical indication status for Welsh wines. And, in addition, we also provide business investment through the food business accelerator scheme.

Thank you, Deputy First Minister. Now, the award-winning Velfrey Vineyard in my constituency is a real gem, with PGI status sparkling brut and sparkling brut rosé. I'm also delighted to share with the Chamber that the vineyard is shortlisted in the Countryside Alliance awards’ best local food and drink category and I urge everyone here to vote for Velfrey Vineyard. The owner, Andy Mounsey, is also chair of the Welsh Vineyards Association. But not everything is as sparkling as it may seem, as your proposed deposit-return scheme is leaving a bitter taste in the mouth of Welsh vineyards. [Interruption.] There’s more, there’s more. Andy said, 'All of the customers responding to our survey said that they already return their bottles for recycling or reuse, so the cost complexity and concern caused by the inclusion of glass can have no upside as it’s impossible to improve on 100 per cent'. He added that, 'We would urge the Welsh Government to consider removing glass altogether from the DRS or, at least, ensuring that all Welsh wine production is exempted'. So, Deputy First Minister, will you toast the success of Welsh vineyards by heeding the advice of Andy, or will you tell them to put a cork in it and ignore their concerns?

Fair play. Fair play. Llywydd, I imbibed his words and I am drunk on his rhetoric. Well, well, well. Look, let me just begin by indeed congratulating Velfrey Vineyard in Pembrokeshire on once again being shortlisted for the Countryside Alliance awards. And I would encourage people to vote for their favourites. I have many favourites, personally, amongst our Welsh vineyards and regularly do my best to support them in my own little way. 

Just to say, back in December 2022, the Food and Drink Wales wine special interest group launched a strategy for the industry, and a lot has happened since that launch. The strategy is unique, because it has been developed by industry, rather than led by the Government, although it has our support. And, as such, I have to say, it sets a real example for other sectors of what can be done. It's a real fine example of clustering, and very encouraging to see Welsh vineyards now working together to drive the growth within the industry. And just to say, Llywydd, the drinks strategy target to increase that sector's value tenfold, to reach £100 million by 2035, is looking more and more achievable—not least to do with my contribution, and yours probably as well. There are now more new vineyards in Wales. We've got over 40 individual vineyards, and many existing vineyards are expanding their vineyards as well. And we also, of course, co-ordinate, as you know, Welsh Wine Week every year through the Food and Drink Wales drinks cluster, and that really boosts buyers and consumers, and it attracts considerable press coverage. Our wine is excellent, it really is, and it's got a growing market out there. 

You touched on DRS; it's an important thing. I've made it very, very clear that the reason we are proceeding in the way that we are is that we are already ranked second in the world for recycling. We need to go further with DRS with reuse, not just recycling. But, we want to work with the producers to support them, to make the most of these opportunities for resilient supply chains and, by the way, to decrease material costs, because if we can land this right and we're reusing rather than purchasing new all the time, with new bottles and so on, you can actually drive down costs, as shown in other countries where they've gone this way. But, look, as we bring forward a consultation on the scheme in Wales later this year, we will be continuing our very close engagement with industry to ensure that DRS works for Wales and to support producers to take advantage of the opportunities that this can bring, while addressing any concerns. We can make this work for Wales and for all of our producers as well.

Thank you, Joyce. We continue to fund Keep Wales Tidy, who support communities and local authorities right across Wales. This includes conducting litter prevention trials and interventions, co-ordinating volunteer clean-up activities as well, working with children and young people, and encouraging positive environmental behaviours through our behaviour change campaigns.

Of course, we all know, Cabinet Secretary, that everyone has a part to play in keeping our communities clean and tidy, and a lot of people do just that. They actually manage to take their litter home or put it in the bin—amazing, I'm sure. So, I'm delighted that the Welsh Government has boosted its support for Keep Wales Tidy, with £1.2 million extra announced just this month. That money will help more than 2,500 dedicated volunteers go even further to make cleaner, greener spaces for everyone. And I'm sure you'll join with me in thanking those volunteers for picking up the rubbish that other people can't be bothered to put in the bins or take home with them. But, we do need prevention, too, and the incoming ban on single-use vapes is a huge win for the environment against plastic waste. Could you update us on how well businesses in Wales are preparing and adapting ahead of that 1 June deadline?

Thanks, Joyce, and, yes, I join you in paying tribute to all of those volunteers—some of whom will be in this Chamber, I'm sure, who join those gangs of volunteers—who work with Keep Wales Tidy to do local clean-ups. It's really important, and it sets a behavioural norm, and it sends the message, as we know, as people pass by in their cars and go, 'Well done', they say, 'Yes, great; just don't throw this stuff away, please. Don't dump it; do what we are doing, so we don't have to tidy up so much in future.' 

But, look, the £1.2 million of funding that we've put forward, I think, has been really welcomed. It will enable, by the way, in Mid and West Wales, project officer roles in several local authorities in the area to continue their work with volunteers and community groups and local authorities on litter and dog fouling and so on. There are over 35 litter hubs now in Mid and West Wales, allowing those volunteers to get on with it themselves. That behavioural change is not just relying on Keep Wales Tidy officers, but volunteers themselves going, 'Hey, we'll sort it out now. You go. Go and do somewhere else.' And that works really well.

On the single-use vapes, this is one of a range of measures that we've brought forward to tackle it at point source, to get ahead of it, and I can confirm that from 1 June 2025, it will be an offence to supply or offer to supply—including for free—single-use vape products to consumers in Wales. It aligns with bans elsewhere in the UK. We've worked together across the UK, but we've also worked and continue to work with those in the supply chain, because we don't have to rely on these single-use vapes, and there are some benefits that people will point to in vapes for those who are weaning themselves off, for example, nicotine and cigarettes and so on, but actually doing it in a way that doesn't destroy the environment and also doesn't attract some of these disposable vapes targeted specifically at young people. So, we have health benefits and we have environmental benefits, and we'll keep on looking for those interventions where we can do more, Joyce.

Cabinet Secretary, a common issue that I come across is overflowing bins, and when I walk to my office in Newtown, there's a particular location where the bin's always overflowing. I even witness people putting rubbish next to the bin, so this, of course, is an issue that we can all raise with our local authorities. Sometimes I get responsive answers, such as more frequent collections or larger  bins; sometimes I don't, because of those financial constraints. But I wonder whether there are other examples across Europe or the world that you could look at to overcome this issue. I notice in continental Europe that waste often drops down into an underground container. That would resolve the issue of overflowing bins, but it would also possibly be a cost reduction for local authorities with less frequent collections. I wonder if there are other examples that you could look at and consider piloting such schemes in communities across Wales.

Thank you, Russell. There are some really interesting ideas out there, but I'm going to hesitate from doing anything that looks like micromanaging bins across the whole of Wales. I can take responsibility for some things, but not for every bin. But there are some interesting alternative technologies out there. I think it's not just a role for Welsh Government, but actually the Welsh Local Government Association and the very strong partnership that exists within the sub-committees of the WLGA, looking at recycling, litter, et cetera, to explore some of these options, and to see then whether there is value in adopting alternative ways forward.

You are right: it's a right pain, I've got to say, quite frankly, when you see overflowing bins, and people with the best intentions then put it next to the bin, which then gets pulled open by the passing scavenging dog or whatever. Not that dogs should be out without a lead, by the way; that's another area of my portfolio. Peredur, yes. But it's an interesting approach and I think we should encourage the WLGA to look at this in their sub-committees as well.

Thanks, Sioned. Canals contribute to the economic, social, environmental and cultural well-being of Wales. Whilst canals are non-devolved, of course, the Welsh Government has funded projects to enhance the network, and these have included improvements to infrastructure and active travel routes along Swansea canal.

Diolch. Last October, I attended the opening of the phase 2 of the Clydach buried lock restoration scheme and the Swansea Canal Centre. The Swansea Canal Society does amazing work to bring this community asset to life. Canals run through many communities in my region, and I've also supported the Tennant Canal Association in their efforts to safeguard the Tennant canal, which is crucial to biodiversity, as part of this canal is a breeding ground for the fen raft spider, the largest spider in the UK and one of the rarest, and I am its species champion. Additionally, I've engaged with St Modwen, who own the Neath canal, which runs between Glyn Neath and Briton Ferry, and also Tŷ Banc Canal Group, a volunteer group based in Resolven that undertakes many duties to help maintain this stretch of the Neath canal.

The previous climate change Minister highlighted the risks associated with the reductions in funding made to the Canal & River Trust by the then Tory UK Government, such as the loss of sections of the canal network and the negative impact on biodiversity. For canals not owned by the Canal & River Trust, such as both the Neath and Tennant canals, the risk of losing access to and benefit from these canals is even greater. The benefits of canals touch on almost every portfolio within Welsh Government, so what conversations are being had across Government, including with the UK Government, to ensure our canal network is preserved, protected, supported and celebrated? Diolch.

Thank you very much for that supplementary. Can I just begin by joining you in praising the work of those many volunteers across our whole canal network in Wales, and across the UK, who do so much? I remember that the inception of the Canal & River Trust model was very much predicated on that idea that, if I recall correctly, the UK Government could draw on some real estate capitalisation, because they own some massive Treasury houses like parts of the Docklands in London and so on, and use that to drive investment, but also draw on volunteers and the goodwill that exists from volunteers who are interested in the archaeology of the canals, as well as wildlife, biodiversity, access, fitness, well-being and all that sort of thing. People have a real stake in this.

But you are right: my understanding is that a decision has been taken. I've got to stress that this is not a devolved matter, but the decision has been taken to review the funding model for the Canal & River Trust, so moving it from a 15-year period of tapering to a 10-year period, so that it's accelerated. We need, in Wales, to continue to monitor what we can do in our contribution to the canals, and that does, by the way, involve not insubstantial investment in things like the active travel network, but also, specifically, in places like the Montgomery canal, camlas Maldwyn, in biodiversity projects running into the hundreds of thousands of pounds. So, we do recognise the importance of these and we'll keep doing what we can here, but, meanwhile, I think it's vitally important that the UK Government work with the Canal & River Trust to make sure that that goodwill is translated into continuing investment, maintenance and, as some volunteers want to do, the expansion of the canal network as well.

Cabinet Secretary, I would firstly thank Sioned for raising this important issue, really. I would like to pay tribute to the army of volunteers working to restore canals across South Wales West, including but not limited to the Tennant canal and the Swansea canal. These historical waterways are not only part of our industrial heritage, but are also a key part of our future actions to improve biodiversity. Canals offer a variety of habitats that attract different species of flora and fauna all year round. Due to their linear structure, canals can also provide connecting corridors that create a link through urban and rural environments. Cabinet Secretary, what more can the Welsh Government do to support those seeking to restore our historical canals and waterways?

Thank you, Altaf, and I can feel the love here at the moment in this Chamber, for the volunteers as well as for the fen raft spider, from the species champion. There is investment that we can enable,  but it's also giving—. As I've outlined, there's the £100,000 that we've provided to the Swansea Canal Society via the brilliant basics fund to make infrastructure improvements at Clydach lock. I've seen it myself up close, it's fantastic to see and the work of volunteers there. There's the £128,000 that we've put into that stretch as well, of active travel funding to upgrade the towpaths alongside the Swansea canal. It's great to see that Neath Port Talbot have secured funding themselves for restoring and regenerating the Neath and Tennant canals. This is very positive, and I know they'll be keen to work with volunteers as well.

I suspect there'll be more that we can do in future around biodiversity, active travel and so on, so even though it is indeed a non-devolved aspect here, we recognise the value of the canals and rivers network to our wider well-being and the environmental gains, and the economic gains as well, because you walk up and down these canals from Clydach and elsewhere and you'll find the cafes, you'll find the pubs thriving on the back of them and so on. We're back to the wine again, the Welsh wine. So, they have multiple benefits.

I also want to outline the good work being done by the Swansea Canal Society. The canal was constructed between 1794 and 1798, running for 16 and a half miles from Swansea to Abercraf. Today, only 5 miles of Swansea canal is fully navigable, from Clydach to Pontardawe and from Pontardawe to Ynysmeudwy. The canal society, with its volunteers, has been involved in extending the canal and getting one of the locks reopened. I, along with many other Senedd Members, including Cabinet Members, was at the official opening earlier this year. Will the Minister join me in congratulating the canal society and their many volunteers? How can this good practice be shared out? I mean, far too often in Wales, we have great things happening and then they only happen in one place. How can we share it around the other canal societies?

Mike, you're absolutely right. I'm glad that you and so many Members were there for that opening of it. I've just got to point out that I do have a vested interest, as I've sailed every inch of that navigable canal, and others within south Wales, in my 17-footer, and I'm regularly out on expeditions exploring it. This is the best time of year, actually, in terms of seeing the wildlife, so I'd encourage anybody to walk, cycle and enjoy it and so on.

And we can spread it more. There's much work going on beyond Swansea and the Tennant canal, and so on, and all those volunteers. We can actually do that investment, as I've mentioned, in places like the Mongomery canal, camlas Maldwyn, using, for example, the Nature Networks fund for biodiversity there, so, into the hundreds of thousands of pounds in that area. So, we can definitely spread this, and I think one of the best ways of propagating this, I have to say, is through volunteer to volunteer, because what's impressive in this and the original conception of the Canal & River Trust is building on the goodwill, the energy and the knowledge and enthusiasm of volunteers. They were the ones who had driven the restoration of all of the canal network, from the moment they would have disappeared in this country. They were the ones who actually started it; they're the ones who are continuing to drive it and we need to support them.

Thanks, Natasha. Fly-tipping Action Wales, a Welsh Government-funded programme, continues to work with local authorities in south-east Wales targeting fly-tipping hotspots. Successful surveillance exercises have led to prosecutions and other enforcement action. This includes supporting Newport City Council in successfully dealing with the notorious, I think it's fair to say, 'road to nowhere' site in Coedkernew.

Thank you so much, Cabinet Secretary, for your answer. Mounds of rubbish, as you mentioned, rightfully, are piling up in Newport and are becoming an increasingly regular occurrence for residents. Not too long ago at a council scrutiny meeting, it was revealed that the city reclaims the unwanted crown of Wales's fly-tipping capital. A report found that more than 8,000 of the 42,171 fly-tipping incidents reported by all local authorities over the last year were, indeed, in the Newport council area.

One example of the ever-growing problem in our city was the mammoth mound of rubbish made up of nappies, bags, household waste and other discarded waste that was left on Factory Road to pile up. One local described the smell coming from the site as disgusting, with rats spotted scurrying around the site and a swarm of flies hovering over the pile of waste. After being reported numerous times and being raised by my Welsh Conservative colleague and Newport city councillor David Fairweather, I'm pleased to see that it's now being cleared. However, Cabinet Secretary, it should never have got to this stage. So, I'd like to know how the Welsh Government is specifically working with local authorities to combat this issue, which blights our communities, and if any extra support will, indeed, be given to Newport City Council, as it's clear that this particular area is a hotbed for fly-tipping. Thank you.

Thanks, Natasha. And, look, I think that headline for a local authority is deeply unwanted. I saw some of the coverage on that and I've seen some of the responses from some of the officers and councillors, that they've issued now more than 200—200—fixed-penalty notices for fly-tipping and waste offences this year, compared with only a few dozen in the years before. So, they're now going at it, which is really great to see.

What we can do as Welsh Government is continue the investment. So, the £1.2 million that we've put into the Fly-tipping Action Wales programme over the past three years really boosts that, and that does include strengthening enforcement action across Wales, as I've just described, employing new enforcement officers to target those well-known fly-tipping hotspots and building those robust relationships with local authority enforcement teams, so we have best practice, front-foot practice everywhere, and that includes delivering the enforcement outcomes, delivering prosecutions and other enforcements that, sometimes, are quite laborious, because it is like forensic analysis, but to pursue those fly-tippers as well. We've got to acknowledge that a majority of what we're seeing is linked to the disposal of domestic waste in fly-tipping. So, people have to take responsibility as well, themselves, individually. Who are they giving their waste to? Are they a licensed contractor? Do they know it's going to a dump, and that they're paying for that, not that it'll be dumped at the end of their lane? So, we'll continue to support this.

In your own area, there’s some stuff that we're doing in south-east Wales. In the Gwent levels, we're developing a future project working with communities, building on the success of the previous Living Levels fly-tipping project. We're working directly with Newport council as well. Fly-tipping Action Wales are working on doing more with signage and increasing surveillance activities. In the wider south-east area, we're doing work with Rhondda Cynon Taf and Merthyr Tydfil on common land sites, working with NRW on that, at targeted locations where we know there's a problem in south Wales. And with Monmouthshire and Torfaen we're doing a similar targeting of hotspots as well.

Thank you, Delyth. Local authorities have a clear duty to ensure that the air environment is considered with any planning application made. Local authorities also have duties to improve air quality in their areas, using mechanisms including planning permission and enforcement, environmental permitting, statutory nuisance and compliance.

Thank you for that. Living near a quarry can have harmful effects on your health. The Bryn quarry in Gelligaer has, reportedly, continued blasting operations, although its planning consent ran out at the end of last year. Residents living nearby have long complained about noise pollution from the blasts, vibrations in their homes and the dust, and it's the dust I wanted to focus on. Exposure to quarry dust can have hugely detrimental effects on our health; it's particularly harmful to children's lungs—it can lead to asthma—and in adults long-term exposure can be associated with heart attacks and strokes.

It is near impossible to get an accurate picture of how badly air quality is being affected by quarries. It doesn't help that quarry companies like that in Gelligaer self-monitor the air quality data. Surely we need independent monitoring in these sites across Wales, since some quarry companies have been accused in the past of underreporting emissions. Cabinet Secretary, this should, surely, be an early test case for the clean air Act. Would you look at this, please, and introduce changes to protect the health of everyone living near these quarry sites across Wales?

Thanks, Delyth. One of the things that may be of interest to you and to others, rather than rehearse the protections that are currently in place and our expectation as the Welsh Government that those are used, is that, since the 2024 Act, we've opened a consultation to update the local air quality guidance for local authorities to support them further in meeting their air quality obligations. We'd welcome anyone and everyone to input into this consultation; it's on our website.

But I would say as well that it's very clear that the potential impact on health must always be considered in relation to any proposal for aggregates extraction, and health impact assessments have to be carried out for such proposals where they're within 1 km of an existing community. Of course, something that we passed fairly recently in 2024, the Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Act, requires local authorities to monitor and manage air quality within their area.

So, those are in place; we need to make sure that they're being used properly. But if there are other proposals coming forward, as I've said in response to previous questions, I'm always interested in hearing good suggestions and evidence of a better way forward.

Thank you very much, Mabon. We have invested £300,000 to support the recovery of seagrass along the coastline of Wales. This includes recent funding for the development of Seagrass Network Cymru’s national seagrass action plan, which sets out a vision for the restoration of 266 hectares of seagrass across Wales by 2030.

Thank you very much to the Cabinet Secretary for that response. I welcome the recent announcement of more funding for Seagrass Network Cymru. The network does great work; I had the pleasure last year of planting seagrass seeds in Penychain with members of the network. Of course, seagrass not only helps nature and ensures that there are healthy fisheries along our shores, but they also absorb carbon dioxide at a huge quantity. But in addition to this funding, and the support that I appreciate has already been given, beyond that, what are you doing in terms of setting an ambition? What is the Welsh Government's ambition when it comes to seagrass, and what targets have you put in place in order to deliver that ambition?

Not only seagrass, but also salt marsh is important within this context as well. You rightly point out that this isn't the only funding that we've done. We've awarded, since 2021, nearly £852,000 of funding towards salt marsh restoration through the Nature Networks fund. These will contribute to our 30x30 conservation targets, without a doubt. As you know—and there's great support here in this Chamber for the seagrass network and seagrass project—we were delighted to put that additional £100,000 forward, but part of that will support the development of the national seagrass action plan. Within that, we can have ideas coming of forward about the level of ambition that can be done within Wales, rather than me arbitrarily saying, 'Here's the hectarage'. But even this funding on its own now will develop that 266 hectares more.

I visited, only a month or so ago, one of the sites that's crucial to this, which is in the industrial estate in Bridgend, where they're developing those little nubs that will be planted out—again, a theme today—by volunteers, many of them, right across Wales. So, this will contribute to our nature restoration. It will contribute to that marine environment. It will contribute to carbon sequestration as well. It has those multiple benefits. That's why we're pleased to put the investment in, and we're looking forward to them developing not only the national seagrass action plan, but part of this funding is to encourage others to be part of this, to bring other funders in. Because there's a great deal of excitement around seagrass, and salt marsh as well, and we hope that other people will say, 'Well, we want to be in this space, helping to fund the development of this'. Then we can lift the ambition significantly.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

The next item will be the topical questions. The first of those today will be answered by the Minister for Further and Higher Education, and will be asked by Julie Morgan.

The Welsh Government has discussed the proposals with Cardiff University and we expect the concerns of staff, students and trade unions to be heard during the consultation. Universities across Wales make vital contributions to our communities, economy and public services. We need sustainable solutions to ensure that continues, including training healthcare workers.

Thank you for the answer.

I’d like to, first of all, declare an interest as my son-in-law works for Cardiff University. I think I’ve been—and I think we’ve all been—in a state of shock following the announcement from Cardiff University yesterday that it’s proposing to cut 400 jobs, leading to the closures of the departments of ancient history, modern languages and translation, music, nursing and religious theology. These are fundamental, essential courses that will just disappear. Four hundred jobs account for 7 per cent of the university’s workforce, and to lose that many high-skilled jobs will have a devastating and lasting impact not only on the individuals involved, but on the city and on Wales. It will result in thousands of students not coming to Cardiff to study, and this will have a knock-on effect on other industries that are reliant on students for their income.

I’m particularly concerned that nursing is to be one of the main departments that will be affected. The nursing course at Cardiff University is ranked first in Wales and fifth across the whole of the UK. According to the Royal College of Nursing, there are 800 to 1,000 students in the nursing school. To cut this number of nursing students, when it’s estimated that we are short of 2,000 nurses in Wales, I can only say is astonishing, and the impact of this will be felt right across Wales. Could the Minister ask the university to consider the Wales-wide impact of such proposals, particularly when the Welsh Government here is making such an effort to recruit nurses, and also has retained the bursary in order to keep nurses in the field? And also, does the Minister know if any other allied professionals will also be affected if this closure goes ahead at the school of nursing?

And then, of course, to lose the music department will be a huge blow that, again, will not just affect Cardiff. The loss of roughly 275 music students in the school will affect the whole of Wales and will affect the Welsh music culture. Last year in Cardiff we've already had the closure of the junior department of the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama, and this is a further blow to the arts in Wales. The head of the school has described this proposal as a dereliction of duty and a betrayal of Welsh cultural heritage. I've spoken to the union representatives and they feel they are at a loss as to how the university has come to this decision so drastically, with such essential courses being proposed to be cut. 

One of the reasons given for this money crisis is the drop in international students because of the change in visa requirements, and I wondered if the Minister had any more details of the numbers related to this and what percentage has it dropped in Cardiff University. I'm also very fearful that these cuts would just be the tip of the iceberg. These are the academic jobs that are going. I think the university have said that there would be professional jobs that will follow that. Those will be jobs in the administration sections and in estates. I wondered if the Minister had any indication, or would be able to find out, what the university has planned for next.

And finally, what about the students? Could the Minister confirm that the students, who may be in the middle of their courses, will be supported in this very difficult period? Because you can imagine how devastated you might be if you're in the middle of a course and then you're told this course might be axed. I think the welfare of the students is something the university must consider.

In conclusion, our universities in Wales are absolutely vital. They're a part of the fabric of our society and they mean so much more than just thinking of teaching of students. I urge the Minister to do all she possibly can to see what the Welsh Government can do in order to prevent these proposals coming into effect.

I'd like to thank Julie Morgan for that question. We are aware of Cardiff University's recent announcement on plans to consult with staff and trade unions on compulsory job losses, and the potential closure of course provision. We understand that the university has entered a statutory consultation period with the recognised trade unions concerned, including the University and College Union, and this follows a period of dialogue across university departments.

I'd like to stress that, at challenging times such as this, I would expect institutions to adhere to the principles of social partnership, and that the trade unions and the affected workforce are involved and engaged in the proposed restructuring process, and that students affected by the proposed changes, which I believe include the teaching out of those courses, are fully supported.

I do recognise that the uncertainty is going to cause anxiety for many staff and students. It's essential that proper support for mental health and well-being is available to all those affected, and I know that trade unions and student unions will be making every effort to put that support in place.

The most important point, Llywydd, that I'd like to place on record in this Chamber this afternoon is that we need to see a review of how the HE sector is funded across the UK as a whole. That needs to take into account factors such as the impact of Brexit, changes to visa requirements, the importance of international partnerships and those UK Treasury rules that govern the student finance system, all of which are not in our hands in Wales.

I understand that some work is ongoing in the UK Government, and I expect the Welsh Government to have the opportunity to contribute to this review so that any findings are relevant to the needs of Wales, which will of course always be my primary concern. In fact, I spoke with the UK Government Minister for higher education earlier today to make these points, and we have further meetings arranged early next week to discuss this in more detail.

Sustainable higher education institutions of course are vitally important for the future of Wales. That's why we've taken the difficult decision to maintain the real-terms value of tuition fees in the last two years. That's why Welsh universities continue to be relatively well funded per student compared to other parts of the UK, and indeed internationally, and that's why we provide the most generous student support package to our students, to enable them to access HE whatever their background. That's also why we want to prioritise improving participation and attainment in our schools and colleges over the long term, so that we can increase the numbers of our young people who might aspire to go to university.

I do recognise, of course, the financial pressures that HEIs in Wales are under. Welsh Ministers, officials and Medr will continue regular constructive engagement with sector leaders on this. And to support universities, as well as increasing our tuition fees, we have provided up to £21.9 million in additional income to them, an additional £10 million also to the sector, bringing total grant funding to over £200 million in the current financial year.

We know that our universities are undergoing a significant period of, frankly, painful adjustment following the sudden recent decrease in international postgraduate enrolments. But higher education funding in Wales compares favourably to other UK nations. According to the London Economics research published in 2024, net higher education funding per full-time student home in Wales in 2023-24 was 18 per cent higher than in Scotland, and 22 per cent higher than in Northern Ireland. We expect our funding will be at a comparable level to England now that tuition fees are the same in both nations. So, we must work closely with the UK Government on developing a funding system for higher education that's sustainable, and works for universities, for students and for staff.

If I can turn, then, also to the issue of nursing that you raised there, Julie. Cardiff University has played an important role in our ambition for a sustainable NHS workforce for the future, and we are disappointed that nursing courses form part of these proposals. The Cabinet Secretary for health is working urgently with Health Education and Improvement Wales to ensure that we can train the same number of nurses in Wales.

And then, finally, just turning to the three specific questions that you raised with me, I can confirm that the university is proposing to keep midwifery, allied health professionals and other medical courses in place, and say that they would work to improve their other medical provision. And then, on your question on international student numbers, the data that we have on student numbers in the current and last academic year hasn't yet been published, but we do know from Home Office data that, across the UK, there's been a 14 per cent fall in student visa applications in 2024, compared to 2023. And a survey of 70 UK universities found that 80 per cent reported a decrease in international postgraduate enrolments in September 2024, and overall international postgraduate enrolments declining by 20 per cent. That data really does concur with what universities in Wales have been telling us, and their staff, about declining international enrolments this year.

In terms of your question about what other plans the university might have, the university hasn't advised us of any further restructuring plans. But I do want to re-emphasise that universities are autonomous of Government in making any such decisions.

And finally you asked about the wider impact of the proposals on Cardiff and the region. I've no doubt that responses to the consultation will focus on seeing these changes in terms of their impact on Cardiff and on Wales as a whole, which will of course then be for the university to take into account in their final decisions.

Minister, these colossal cuts are devastating, not just for the affected staff and students—my phone has been bombarded by parents, who are concerned about the future of their children at Cardiff University. It's also going to have a tremendous impact on the local community, our economy and, ultimately, future generations. Financial problems and a drop in international students have been blamed for the drastic cuts—I can hear it, I can understand it, to a point. But it was really, really disappointing to hear a Welsh Government spokesperson shrug off any responsibility yesterday, by saying that universities are independent institutions. Whilst that's true, and I think we can all accept that to another point, is the Government genuinely comfortable sitting on their hands and allowing this act of educational vandalism to be taking place here in Wales? Because, quite frankly, I'm not comfortable with it.

In my view, the Government must act, particularly as this university is well known, and it's apparent to all of us it's going to be axing the nursing college, as our colleague mentioned a little while ago. It's going to be enduring a huge shortfall in the number of nurses that we're going to be bringing to the forefront here in the Welsh health service. In light of the nursing school's potential closure, what discussions has the Government had with the health boards in the immediate area in regard to their capacity to pick up some of the slack? Given that any benefit to a tuition fee uplift to universities has been cancelled out by an increase in national insurance contributions, what steps are being taken to ensure increased support for our universities through the budget happening here for 2025-26?

And in terms of the drop in international students, can the Minister explain the reasons behind this and outline—and you mentioned these in your previous answer, and I appreciate that—what role this specific Welsh Government is playing to market Welsh universities, both here at home and across the world, in a bid to boost student numbers? Of course, this is a developing issue—I can't deny that—with major ramifications, so an urgent statement I do hope will be brought to the Chamber next week so that we can properly debate this issue in more depth and detail. Thank you.

I'd like to thank Natasha Asghar for those questions. And you began by talking about the well-being of students, and I share your concern for the well-being of students. I know that the National Union of Students branch in Cardiff is very active and will be supporting students through this time. But I reiterate the point that I made to Julie Morgan: I think it is very important that all of us share the responsibility to ensure that the correct facts are available here and that the consultation proposes the teaching out of courses so that no students who are currently enrolled in Cardiff will be affected there.

And in terms of your question about discussions with health boards, the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care is working with Health Education and Improvement Wales, and they, in turn, have those discussions with health boards so that we can ensure that our workforce planning models for nursing and other allied health professions are fulfilled.

But it is really important that we recognise that this is not an issue just for one university here in Wales or for Welsh universities. The issues that we’re facing are issues that have been brought upon us, I’m sorry to say, by the previous UK Conservative Government. So, if we look at the lasting impact of Brexit, the inability that that has given to our HEIs to access research funding—that’s been absolutely catastrophic; the hostile environment for those coming into our country from overseas—that’s a direct result of the previous UK Government's visa changes; and then, of course, we have the rampant inflation that every vice-chancellor has raised with me—the effects of the rampant inflation caused by Liz Truss. [Interruption.] So, those are very important points for us to consider to ensure that we have the full context.

The news from Cardiff University yesterday was absolutely devastating. And thanks to Labour in Wales, our universities are on the brink. Minister, what happened to education, education, education? I can tell you what: it’s been replaced by stagnation, obfuscation and deterioration. I am meeting union representatives and senior management from the university later on today, and I’m looking forward to hearing directly from them about the impact on jobs, announcements on staff, students and the wider community.

Now, that Wales’s biggest university is set to lose 400 staff is a shocking symptom of Labour’s chronic failure over 25 years to put our universities on a sustainable financial footing. Now, Wales, as has been mentioned already, has a proud record of being a learning nation. And whilst the university must rethink its plans, obviously, it must also be provided with the means to support its staff now and in the future.

So, what and when, Minister, did you know about this announcement? Despite the countless warnings about the financial sustainability of the sector, rather than providing crucial support, you are waving the white flag in the face of hundreds of redundancies, leaving the university sector to wither on the vine. You prematurely announced a transformation fund, only for that to turn out to be just smoke and mirrors. And after three successive years of cuts to the HE budget—three successive years of cuts—the draft budget for 2025-26 does not appear to offer any further investment to support the sector. Dare I ask where the money for this transformation fund is in this budget? Now, during budget scrutiny the week before last, the Cabinet Secretary for Education said:

'In tertiary education, the Minister...decided...to prioritise, ensuring further education and sixth forms can meet the needs of learners.'

Is that the official position of the Welsh Government, that you are content to abandon our universities in Wales? Just a few weeks ago, Welsh Government let the flames go out, alongside thousands of jobs lost at Tata in Port Talbot. We can’t let the same happen again to our universities. Welsh Government failed to act then. Minister, will you act now?

Thank you, Cefin, for those series of comments. I will try to extract some questions from them so that I can answer. [Interruption.] As you know, we have—

Can we have some—? Can we listen to the Minister's response? She's being heckled by her own backbenches at the moment.

I was heckling Cefin. [Laughter.]

But you were interrupting the Minister. The Minister, please.

Diolch, Llywydd. As you will know, Cefin, we’ve provided over £200 million to the higher education sector in the current financial year, with an additional £10 million being awarded in the supplementary budget, and also other funding such as the Digarbon scheme, which I’m really proud of. I went on a lovely visit with the Deputy First Minister to Cardiff University to see how they’ve used the £12 million that they were awarded through that as well. So, I’m confident that the Welsh Government is supporting the sector as much as we possibly can.

You’ll be aware, of course, that higher education institutions are autonomous and that 90 per cent of their funding comes from outside of Government. You referred there to trade unions. I was pleased to be able to speak with representatives from the higher education trade union sector just this morning, and I will continue to have those conversations, which are really important to be having.

In terms of you going back to the issue of funding, as I’ve told the Senedd previously, discussion of a transformation fund for the sector was very much in early stages and it was one of a range of options that was considered for supporting the higher education sector. And we did conclude through the budget discussions that a transformation fund is not required for the sector at this stage. Instead, what we sought to do was to increase core funding for universities through the uplifts to tuition fees, in order that we could direct our core budget to support the priorities identified by the First Minister last summer.

But I bring you back to what I’ve already said is the most important point that I want to make in the Chamber today, that the answers to these problems, which are significant problems—these answers are found in a review of the higher education sector across the UK. And I’m really pleased that I’ve been able to discuss that with my UK counterpart, Jacqui Smith, this morning, and that she has agreed that the Welsh Government can work with the UK Government on that review, so that any findings are relevant to the needs of Wales, which will always be my primary concern.

These are indeed radical plans, but they can’t spend money they haven’t got, and we are not responsible for the attitude of the previous Government that people were not welcome to come and study in this country. The issues involved are multiple, though. Particularly I want to know what the impact of the abolition of the nursing courses would have on the culture and appropriateness of the medical school’s training of the doctors of the future. I don’t know whether any conversation’s been had in advance with the Cabinet Secretary for health on this matter, because it really is a strategic issue, not just a numbers issue. Equally, if modern languages were no longer at Cardiff University, what impact is this going to have on our ambition to strengthen our trading partnership with the rest of the world, as well as strengthen our relationships with the rest of Europe, in light of the hostile culture emanating from the United States?

I think these are really significant issues, because we cannot simply arrogantly expect everybody to speak English. If we want to strengthen our relationships with these foreign countries, we absolutely have to have people who can communicate with them in their language, and, therefore, the Cabinet Secretary for economy is also somebody I’d like to see involved in these conversations.

Thank you, Jenny, for your questions and your comments there, and I align myself completely with the comments that you’ve made about the value of international students. And that’s not just, obviously, the monetary value that they bring to our HEIs, but the cultural enrichment value that they bring as well.

With regard to your question about nursing, I understand that the Cabinet Secretary has written to the university regarding the points that you raised, and I’m sure that he would be willing to share that response with you once received. And you make an important point about the value of modern foreign language courses as well, and I’d like to stress to the Chamber that the Welsh Government remains committed to ensuring effective support on international languages across Wales.

Our curriculum officials are in touch with the university regarding the new Curriculum for Wales grant support programme and the proposals for delivery of that. And also I’d like to say that, although Cardiff University are not an accredited provider of initial teacher education, any loss of modern foreign language undergraduate provision could of course affect the potential number of prospective future MFL postgraduate certificate in education students across Wales. So, we will continue to assess any potential impacts on student teacher recruitment to MFL programmes as well.

I must say I’m hugely disappointed by your response, Minister, and, in particular, it seemed, listening to your initial response, that there is no problem—Welsh Government has done everything possible. Well, can I ask, therefore, why has the sector been asking the Welsh Government for years now to do more? You say they’re autonomous, but they’ve been asking for greater support. So, why hasn’t that been the case? And what are you going to do now that there is a UK Labour Government? We’ve heard about the partnership in power, but what Julie Morgan didn’t mention was the impact of the national insurance contributions adding to that bill by millions—a UK Labour decision.

So, you must take some accountability in terms of decisions, and also an acknowledgement that Labour has been in charge of education for nearly 26 years. So, we don’t want excuses. We want to know what the plan is. And as my colleague Cefin Campbell asked: what did you know, and when? Because this hasn’t happened overnight. We knew, in the opposition, that this was an issue that needed to be dealt with. We’ve been calling on Welsh Government to do so. So, why haven’t you done so? Why have you let it get to this point?

And as Plaid Cymru spokesperson for the Welsh language and culture, I’m also hugely concerned about the cuts to music courses, and merging the school of Welsh with other schools, and the impact that this will have on our national language and culture. The university’s Welsh language strategy—'Yr Alwad'—commits the university to providing a Welsh language offer, in the community and culturally, that adds to and improves research, teaching and the general international ambitions of the university.

So, Minister, can you commit to working with the university and the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol in order to ensure that the provision of Welsh as a subject and a medium of education isn’t negatively impacted by these proposed cuts?

Well, thank you, Heledd, for your questions there, but I’m sure, if you look back and read the transcript, you will see that I’ve said at various intervals during this exchange that this is a serious problem for the HE sector here, not just in Wales, but across the UK. And I am sure that I have placed on record as well how important the sector is to us here in Wales, and my intention to work as closely with them as possible to support them. And I'm confident that we are doing all we can as a Welsh Government here to support that sector. Yes, we’ve just had the best funding settlement that we’ve had since devolution from the UK Labour Government, and that, of course, is fantastic news, but, after 14 years of austerity, what we’ve received can only just begin to scrape the surface of the problems that we are facing. And you can shake your head, but I know that you know that that is absolutely factually correct. You asked about when we knew about these proposals—and apologies, Cefin, I forgot to answer that question when you asked it yourself—I can confirm that both myself and the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care were told about these proposals last week.

Finally, on the point you raise regarding the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, I can absolutely commit to working with them in the future to safeguard the future of Welsh language provision.

I’m grateful to Julie Morgan for raising these matters and to you, Minister, for your response. Higher education is fundamentally important to our wider economy, of course, and the contribution of higher education institutions is important to all of us, wherever we happen to represent. The news yesterday from Cardiff, of course, follows on from the news we had in west Wales, with the Lampeter campus losing its undergraduate teaching. And we’re seeing disruption and a weakening of the higher education sector as a consequence both of difficulties in funding and UK decisions on immigration—you’ve addressed that already—and it is important, I think, that we now consider that wider context. And my question to you, Minister, this afternoon, is: will you look at how we fund the fundamentals of university education and higher education, because I’ve never been a believer in the tuition fee system, I’ll tell you that now from the start. I’ve always felt that tuition fees are the wrong way to fund a fundamental part of our education system. For me, I would much prefer to see some sort of graduate tax approach to providing security for higher education into the future, but also ensuring that the taxpayer is able to demonstrate that we can invest not simply in the institutions, but in the people, in our society and our economy, so that we invest in higher education as part of our investment in the people and places and the future of this country.

Well, thank you, and I think Alun Davies is absolutely right in saying that we need to see this issue in its widest possible context, and that’s both in terms of the funding issues that we face across the UK, but also in terms of the economic, educational and cultural benefits that our higher education institutions bring to not just the areas they’re located in but the wider regions as well. So, obviously, Alun, your community of Blaenau Gwent and my community in Cynon Valley, we all benefit from the richness of the tapestry of higher education institutions that are on our doorstep and accessible to those constituents that we represent. I am open to any and all discussions on the wider context of higher education, how the sector is funded and how we can ensure that there is a sustainable system moving forward. So, I am really keen, anxious and looking forward to those discussions that myself and my officials will be having with the UK Labour Government.  

I thank the Minister. The next question is to be answered by the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership and to be asked by Heledd Fychan. 

Diolch yn fawr. We continue to stress to the UK Government the importance of the tournament to Welsh audiences and the need for continued free-to-air coverage. We have written to the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport to reiterate this point and will continue to make the case. 

Thank you for your response, Minister. Once again, we find ourselves here in the Senedd, just before the six nations tournament kicks off, raising concerns about future broadcasting agreements and the impact they'll have on the people of Wales. The then UK Government, last year, made the decision not to include the six nations in the free-to-air category, despite the significance of the tournament to Wales and the clear demand from fans to keep it accessible. And yet, here we are, again, facing the prospect of TNT Sports bidding for the six nations tv rights, once again putting the interests of Welsh rugby fans at risk. I hope we can all agree that watching our national teams should not be a privilege that only those who can afford subscriptions are able to do. It's more than just a sport; it's about our national identity, our culture, and the ability of every person in Wales, no matter their background, to be part of something bigger. 

Samuel Kurtz mentioned earlier the economic impact such tournaments have as well of bringing communities together, but also boosting business. We know that when our national side takes to the field, both men's and women's, our whole nation gets behind them. We celebrate their victories. We share in their struggles; we've had to share in too many struggles with rugby recently. But, most importantly, we do inspire future generations to take up sport, and, if we want to inspire young people to dream of putting on that red jersey one day, we have to make sure that they can actually watch the players who wear it now. 

So, Minister, you say that you've written to the UK Government. Your predecessor did the same. The UK Labour Government is now in 10 Downing Street, so I would hope those discussions could be more fruitful. So, can I press you: when will we get a response and when will we see progress on this, so we don't have to keep having these conversations every year?  

Diolch yn fawr, Heledd, for raising the question in the first place and, indeed, your supplementary question. Llywydd, I think rugby, particularly at the national level, is one of those topics that does bring the Senedd together. Rugby is of cultural significance to the nation and I do agree with the Member when she says it's more than just a sport. It is there to inspire the next generation, but, as you pointed to Sam Kurtz and his contribution earlier in the day, we also recognise the wider benefits that the sport brings particularly at the national level, but right the way through the game.

And I think the debate brought forward by the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee in July of last year really did show that consensus from the Senedd from all parties around the six nations and that it should remain free to air—our position as a Welsh Government remains the same—including to Welsh-language audiences.

The Member points to areas of actions that we have taken. Well, I've taken the opportunity to raise this in a number of different forums—indeed, at the BBC in October and again with the director general—to play their role and do all they can to ensure a commitment to free-to-air coverage in the future, and, as I referred to in my first answer, Presiding Officer, around the letter that myself and the First Minister wrote to Lisa Nandy, the Secretary of State at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, just yesterday, setting out our position, outlining our position, as did the former First Minister back in 2023. I haven't got an answer, Presiding Officer, to when we'll have a response to that, but I do look forward to the response from Lisa Nandy and I do hope that it is more forthcoming than the previous UK Government.

I think we're all united in this Chamber in the belief that the six nations must remain free to air, and we're a rugby nation, and the bid expressed by TNT broadcasting rights does not mean that the six nations being behind a paywall is a dead cert. It was the Welsh Conservatives 12 months ago who tabled a debate on this very topic this time last year, and the motion called on the Welsh Government to call on the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, DCMS, to ensure that the broadcasting rights remain with a broadcaster committed to free-to-air broadcast, and Welsh Labour Members voted with our motion, as did the whole Chamber. So, can the Minister outline what representations you specifically will make to the DCMS, whether that's in writing, a meeting? Can you please describe that to this Chamber and what particular representations you'll make on behalf of the people and the viewers of Wales to really make that case, and also with the BBC as well? Because I think we've got to all be heading in the same direction and be collegiate on this matter. And the willingness to maintain free-to-air broadcasting must be felt across the board in order to make that happen, and stop a paywall coming into place further down the line in the future. Thank you.

Diolch, Gareth, and I'm grateful for your questions on this particular matter. We often have disagreements in this Senedd Chamber, Presiding Officer, and Gareth and I have had many over the years that we've been here. On this occasion, we do stand shoulder to shoulder, with the view that the six nations should be free to air on television, for viewers across Wales to participate in and to view and celebrate, hopefully, future rugby in Wales. Credit where credit is due, where it should be, his party did produce the motion in the Senedd last year, which was supported. I'm grateful for the work of the culture committee and their inquiry and interest in this matter, and it is, as the Member points out, an interesting topic for the Chamber, one that we are all united on, and I'm sure that consensus remains the same today.

The Member points to the representations that we have made directly. As I said in response to Heledd earlier, the former First Minister, back in 2023, wrote to the then UK Government outlining his position and the position of the Welsh Government. I've taken the opportunity with BBC Wales, and the opportunity with the director general of the BBC, to reiterate our position, that they should do all they can in the role that they can play in response to this. And, as I said earlier, the First Minister and I set out yesterday to Lisa Nandy, the Secretary of State for the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, our views, that we remain of the view and our position remains that the six nations should be free to air. We'll continue those discussions with DCMS colleagues in due course.

I'm grateful for the question this afternoon. I think it's important that we do debate and discuss these things. It's 45 years, Deputy Presiding Officer, since I first made my way down on the train from Rhymney to watch Wales taking on France in January 1980, and the six nations are a part of all of our stories and all of our communities, and all of us, whoever we happen to be, and wherever we sit in this Chamber. The six nations does bring us together as a country and as a community, and everybody should have the right to be a part of that community. Everybody should have the right to go through the joy and the sorrow of supporting Welsh rugby union. The terror that we've felt at different times, and the utter joy that we've felt. I can still remember watching Ieuan Evans break the English line and run towards the east terrace, scoring to beat England 10-9. I could keep us here all afternoon, Deputy Presiding Officer. [Laughter.] But the importance—. And we also will remember the way in which Welsh rugby supporters follow the team, as some of us will be in Murrayfield later this season.

Minister, this is a part of us, a part of our national story, a part of our national life. It cannot be taken away by anyone. It is a matter for this Parliament and this Government to ensure that the culture and sport of this country are available to each and every one of us, no matter where we sit, no matter where we live and no matter what our individual teams happen to be. We come together to support Wales, and we want to continue coming together to support Wales.

I'm grateful to Alun Davies for that, Llywydd. My history doesn't stretch as far back as Alun's, but I think the passion, no doubt, is the same, as Alun represents the country in that passion. And I agree with him: it is a matter of national identity, isn't it, the game of rugby in Wales? As I said earlier, it's of cultural significance to us all, as both a Government and a Parliament, but as a nation as well. The competition of the six nations has been free since its inception. It is my view, and the view of this Government, that it should remain as free-to-air coverage and, indeed, as it is this weekend. I'll take the opportunity, Deputy Presiding Officer, to repeat, as I've said, that we've set out to the DCMS our position, and I look forward to the response to that. But I'll just take Alun's passion in his contribution and wish the squad all the very best in their first game on Friday in France.

Just to let you know, my history stretches a bit further back than his. [Laughter.] Delyth Jewell.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The culture committee did report on this last year, as you've alluded to, and we recommended that the games should be contained and that they should be protected as free to air, to protect against this exact eventuality, and that was for all of the reasons that have been rehearsed so well this afternoon in the Chamber: the unique place that the six nations have in our psyche as a nation, the fact that they bring us together, the audiences, being so much more overwhelmingly the case in Wales than in the other nations.

Now, as a committee, we had stated very clearly that these games should remain free to air, but we had recommended that if there were to be a change, that it was so important that this Government should take steps to ensure that the Westminster Government also did everything it could to safeguard Welsh-language commentary. We also argued, again, if this change were to come—and we didn't want to see this change, but if the tournament moved to a pay-per-view system—that we need to protect hospitality settings, perhaps by pushing for contractual clauses to enable pubs and clubs to get reduced subscription fees. Now, I very much hope it doesn't come to that, but can I have an assurance from you that that is something that you too are discussing with the Westminster Government, if we do reach that point that nobody in this Chamber wants us to reach?

Diolch, Delyth, for the question. Again, I'm grateful for the committee's work on this topic, as I said earlier. It is of national significance, isn't it, and we will do all we can to make the case for the coverage of the six nations to be free to air, Presiding Officer. I hope, as well as the Member, that it doesn't get to that position, and no decision has been made yet on the future of broadcasting, but I do hope that it does remain free to air, and I can't be clearer on this Government's position. I won't go into hypotheticals of what may or may not happen, but of course, we will keep a watching brief of this situation, and we'll want to respond appropriately with our partners in the UK Government. 

As I say, Presiding Officer, this does bring the Senedd together, and I'm grateful for the opportunity that Members have recommitted. All political parties, of all colours, support the cause of free-to-air coverage of the six nations, as does this Welsh Government, and we send that consensus, collaboration and spirit to the team in France on Friday, and wish them all the best for the tournament in the next few weeks.

Thank you, Minister.

To reiterate, on behalf of the whole Senedd, we wish the Welsh team all the best for Friday night, and the remainder of the six nations.

Item 4 today is the 90-second statements. The first statement will be made by Mike Hedges.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Stroke Prevention Day is Thursday 30 January. Strokes happen suddenly, usually without warning. I attend two local stroke groups, one in Morriston and one in Trallwn, with people from their early 30s who have had a stroke attending. When a stroke strikes, part of your brain shuts down, and so does part of you. It happens every five minutes in the UK, and changes lives instantly. Recovery is tough, but with the right specialist support, courage and determination, brains can adapt.

Most stroke prevention strategies are the same as the strategies to prevent heart disease. Preventative tips include: diet and healthy eating, decreasing the amount of cholesterol and saturated fat in your diet, controlling diabetes, monitoring blood pressure, making sure you avoid having high blood pressure, avoiding illicit drugs, exercising, and quitting smoking and alcohol. The Stroke Association is dedicated to the prevention of stroke, and offers extensive support to those impacted by them.

There are currently around 70,000 stroke survivors living in Wales, and a further 7,400 people are expected to have a stroke this year. Using thrombectomy, which involves removing a clot from a blood vessel, most commonly from the brain, heart or lung for eligible patients, represents a saving of £47,000 per patient over a five-year period, but more importantly, it improves someone's life and someone's life chances. We need to raise public awareness of the symptoms of a stroke and the need for timely treatment, and most importantly of all, we need to prevent people having strokes. 

The best orator he had ever heard. That was Vaughan Roderick's opinion about Emrys Roberts. He was born in Leamington Spa, but at the age of 10 the family moved to Cardiff. Through Minny Street Chapel, Cathays school and his aunt Bet, Emrys learned Welsh. In Cathays, he was one of a group of boys who became fluent in Welsh, including Bobi Jones and Tedi Millward.

A conscientious objector, he refused to do military service after the second world war, and he was sentenced to a term in Cardiff prison. While he was there, Mahmood Mattan was hanged. Emrys Roberts saw the racism against Mahmood, and saw his fellow prisoners, those of Somali descent having to dig the grave, and covering it with quicklime.

Emrys had an international mindset. He was a leader in the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, and had enormous an respect for Castro and Cuba. His great aspiration was to see Wales sitting next to Cuba at the United Nations.

He stood for Plaid Cymru in several prominent by-elections, and he led Merthyr council at the end of the 1970s. He was also responsible for the unlawful broadcasts that happened when the BBC banned political broadcasts by Plaid.

Although he held leading roles within Plaid Cymru, it's fair to say that he did not see eye to eye with the leadership of the party on all occasions. He was a socialist by instinct, and he worked hard to push the party in that direction. Everything that Emrys did was rooted in what was best for Wales and the peoples of the world. He was a kind man, and I experienced that kindness over the years.

It's a privilege to pay tribute to Emrys here in the Senedd. He was part of a small group that insisted that Wales was a nation, and this Senedd is the fruit of their labours. Thank you very much.

We'll move on now to item 5, a motion to amend Standing Orders: Standing Order 12.19 (Open Debates). I call on a member of the Business Committee to formally move the motion. Heledd Fychan.

I formally move.

The proposal is to agree to amend Standing Orders. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 6 today is a debate on the Finance Committee report, 'Financial Transactions Capital'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. Before I begin, I would like to thank all those who gave evidence to the committee as part of our short inquiry into financial transactions capital, or FTC. I’m also grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for engaging with the inquiry and for providing his response to our report ahead of this debate. Thank you very much. I’m particularly pleased to see that all 15 of our recommendations have been accepted, with one accepted in principle, and another accepted in part.

In conducting this inquiry into FTC, our aim was to look at how its use could be improved and better utilised. In particular we looked at: the rules governing the use of FTC; the purposes for which it has been used; its strengths and weaknesses; how it is repaid; and how it is presented in the draft and final budgets.

Dirprwy Lywydd, FTC comprises a significant part of the Welsh Government’s budget, amounting to a portfolio of about £2.2 billion in the budget for 2024-25. However, we found that its practical use is constrained by its uncertain nature, which causes difficulties for the Welsh Government when planning in the medium to long term. We also found that the Welsh Government is often using FTC within a straitjacket of rules over which it has no control, given that they are set centrally by the UK Government.

That said, the evidence received from stakeholders demonstrates that FTC has the potential to support significant policy outcomes. The organisations we heard from saw FTC as a crucial part of the jigsaw to enable them to access financial capital that would lead to tangible results with clear social benefits. We found this to be somewhat at odds with the Cabinet Secretary’s own view that there is no great appetite in Wales for FTC funding.

Our inquiry also looked at the role played by the Development Bank of Wales in administering FTC. Although we found it plays an essential function, we are concerned that the recent reclassification of the bank by HMRC as a central Government body, rather than as a public corporation, will limit the way in which it can effectively support FTC. As a result, we have recommended that the Government assess how this change will impact on the services and products the bank can provide, and I'm glad that the Cabinet Secretary has already confirmed in his response that this work is well under way.

The committee also notes that the Welsh Government is currently reforming the way it manages FTC. We are supportive of the areas of reform mooted by the Cabinet Secretary, especially around enabling more flexibility by removing the ring fence around the use of FTC; providing greater stability and predictability to the flow of money that could be shared through FTC; and ensuring less bureaucracy in the way that the money is used. We believe that these are solid principles and ask the Cabinet Secretary to provide an update on progress in discussions with the Treasury in this area. We welcome that early informal discussion between officials has already taken place.

As mentioned, the experiences of businesses and organisations in using FTC have been generally positive. However, we believe that improvements can be made. We have called on the Welsh Government to publish its criteria for success in using FTC so that expected outcomes for businesses are known at the outset prior to an application, and for them to share more details regarding ongoing attempts to streamline the FTC application process, which stakeholders told us was often lengthy and difficult. 

Dirprwy Lywydd, I would now like to turn to other recommendations in our report. During the sixth Senedd, the committee has regularly called for further clarity in the Welsh Government's budget documentation to explain how FTC allocations are made and for what purpose. This lack of clarity was evident during our inquiry, given we received differing figures from the Welsh Government in its evidence regarding the amount of FTC received to date. However, it is pleasing to see that positive steps have been taken in this area already in response to the committee's work. I'm glad that the draft budget narrative for 2025-26 includes a greater level of detail on FTC, including the provision of disaggregated data. 

In terms of using FTC, I have already mentioned that it comprises a substantial amount of the Welsh Government's spending firepower. However, whilst this funding already benefits some areas, there are certain areas within the Government's responsibilities where it could be used more effectively. To tackle this issue, the committee has called on the Welsh Government to gain a better understanding of where FTC can be used. We have called for a sectoral analysis to be conducted to identify this, and we look forward to further engagement with Government officials on this point.

We also believe that steps are needed to raise awareness of FTC across the Welsh Government, including better knowledge sharing and training, and again it is heartening that progress on reviewing guidance in this area has begun. We also made a range of other recommendations to open up the FTC process, with a view to enhancing its use.

To close, Dirprwy Lywydd, taken together, our recommendations aim to ensure a more open process in terms of FTC and to ensure that it is used in the most practical way possible across the Welsh Government. I'm pleased that the Cabinet Secretary has responded positively to our recommendations, and I look forward to hearing the views of other Members during the debate. Thank you.

I'm glad, following my suggestion, that the Finance Committee agreed to undertake a short inquiry into financial transactions capital. Too often here, financial transactions capital has been something that's happening over which we have very little discussion and very few people have any knowledge.

The UK Government provides financial transactions capital as part of the Welsh Government's block grant. It is a ring-fenced element of capital funding and includes loans or equity investment by the Welsh Government into the private sector. It was an invention of one of the previous Conservative Governments, who created a device to allow the Treasury to avoid declaring capital expenditure in a way that scored against the public sector borrowing requirement, because it appeared both in the debit and credit column, and could be netted off. The discretion afforded to the Welsh Government in operating it means that it can decide on its own programme within the allocation. And can I just say, it's highly unfortunate that a similar scheme does not exist to fund the building of council houses? Because it would do exactly the same thing. It would exist on both the debit and credit side and would be netted off.

As repayable public finance, it is required that it is properly utilised in line with requirements set both at the UK and Welsh Government levels for the effective use of public money. Every year is uncertain, because the Welsh Government does not hear until the autumn statement how much financial transactions capital is coming and then have the short gap between the autumn statement and the draft and final budget in order to show how the Government are going to use the money. In the main, the funding must be repaid to His Majesty's Treasury. In contrast to grants, it is only to be given to entities outside the accounting budgetary boundaries of the Welsh Government and is expected to generate a financial return. 

I am pleased that the Welsh Government accepted the committee's recommendations, although one in principle and one partly. Whilst the reply from the Welsh Government that no formal engagement has taken place with the Treasury in recent years regarding the potential reform of financial transactions capital is disappointing, some early informal discussion between officials has taken place in anticipation of reforms to financial transactions capital being considered through the UK Government's spending review that is currently under way. I look forward to the update to the committee following that process. 

In the 2025 budget, the Welsh Government published data on the new financial transactions capital funding allocation and recycled financial transactions capital repayments. The recycling is very useful, because you actually get more money being spent in a year than you get being allocated during the year. The total quantum of available funding has been allocated, with an element of overprogramming to manage potential underspends. The development bank is currently recycling financial transactions capital within the Wales property fund and the Wales stalled sites fund. I was pleased to see that, in 2023-24, the bank reinvested a total of £32 million. This was split £19 million to the Wales property fund and £13 million for the Wales stalled sites fund. This illustrates the significant value that the recycling of funds can have compared to new in-year funding.

I'm pleased that the Cabinet Secretary has asked his officials to undertake an analysis of where financial transactions capital has been allocated to date and provide this information to the committee. To facilitate this work, he has asked them to engage further with the committee to better understand the nature of the information that would be most useful to the committee. I look forward to this further discussion. Financial transactions capital is one of the tools that the Welsh Government has to support the Welsh economy. It may not survive the new Government, but whilst we have it in Wales, we must make the best use of it.

I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak on this report briefly this afternoon. I wasn't a member of the committee whilst the hard work on this was done. My colleague Peter Fox was our Conservative member on there. I'm not saying that the reason he left that committee was because of the excitement of this report, but it is a strange link, isn't it, that that has now happened. I'm pleased that the committee was able to do this report. It's not often that they're able to carry out an inquiry, because of the size of the agenda within the Finance Committee, but clearly, as Mike Hedges pointed out, it was important that the committee was able to take a moment to look a little deeper into a specific area of finance. 

As a Member looking at it whilst not being within the process of the committee's work, there are a few things that jumped out at me, and I hope that the Cabinet Secretary will respond to these points. Ironically, it's clear that there are a number of recommendations in here that speak to the point of transparency and clarity as to the way in which FTC functions and the way it's understood. It's not, I'm sure, purposely murky, but I guess it is a technical financial vehicle where the simpler that it can be explained, the better, because it helps to provide better transparency. There's a theme of that through all of the recommendations. I appreciate that the Government's response to this is a positive one in terms of the recommendations, but I'd be interested to hear whether the Cabinet Secretary in particular feels as though there is, even with the recommendations, enough transparency around FTC.

The second point, which has already been mentioned by the Chair in particular, is in relation to the constraints that sit around FTC. I'd be interested to hear whether the Cabinet Secretary believes that, within the existing constraints, we are maximising its effectiveness, or maximising its use. And then secondly the likelihood of those constraints being adjusted to allow for further effectiveness in the future and how useful, or not, that might be. Of course, there are very good reasons why those constraints are in place, and there are much more qualified people than myself to comment on that, but of course, we want to see the effectiveness and use of this spend in Wales to be the best possible. 

And a final point, briefly, in relation to recommendation 7, which again has been highlighted as a recommendation for analysis on the FTC by sector. I wonder whether the Cabinet Secretary would be willing to also consider an analysis of FTC by risk as well, because of course what we want to do is minimise any defaults on these types of loans, and understanding the risk profile by who is making use of FTC would be helpful in that as well. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you. I'd like to thank the committee for its report, which was extremely interesting, regarding a quite esoteric element of the budget, but one that has significant implications in relation to the Government's ability to manage its resources.

What comes across clearly in the report is that the rules surrounding the use of FTC as well as the timing of its distribution are more of a hindrance than a help in the context of devolved fiscal arrangements. And this is, of course, a reflection of the significantly wider limitations on the flexibility of the Senedd's fiscal framework, decided directly by Westminster without any input from Wales and often on what appears to be an arbitrary basis.

To give one example, we are still waiting for the Senedd's borrowing powers and the drawdown limits of the Wales reserve to be aligned with inflation, something that is already happening in Scotland. And in this respect, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language was right to say during his recent appearance before the Finance Committee that this is extremely frustrating, bearing in mind how simple such a change would be. And the same frustrations emerge as we consider the evidence of the Government and stakeholders who have had experience of dealing with the complex rules relating to FTC. It is also worth noting, as the Cabinet Secretary did when giving evidence to this inquiry, that FTC effectively exists to give the UK Government more flexibility when it comes to recording a deficit in terms of public funding. Therefore, Wales must carry the practical burden of Westminster's creative calculations. 

I acknowledge that discussions regarding possible amendments of the FTC regime are taking place and I would appreciate updates from the Government as these progress. However, is there not, in looking at the findings of this inquiry, a strong case for getting rid of FTC altogether, and moving to a system where there are no restrictions or excessively bureaucratic rules on the Senedd's use of our financial resources? And isn't creating this freedom necessary when considering the lack of capital investment in Wales over the last decade?

The nature of politics, of course, is that we all have different priorities as to where and how public money should be spent, but I'm sure that we all—regardless of which party we're in—want to see a situation where there are no unnecessary barriers on how the money is used. After all, there is cross-party support in this Senedd to getting rid of the existing Barnett funding system and moving towards fairer financial arrangements that reflect the needs of our population.

All parties have also spoken from time to time about the need to create more flexibility in the structures of the budget process. I therefore believe that there is an opportunity for us as a result of this report to build cross-party consensus on the issue of FTC and the current devolved financial framework as a whole, and to unite as a Senedd to make a strong case to Westminster in terms of the need for much more suitable arrangements for our modern, mature Senedd in order to fully realise its potential.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and the Welsh Language, Mark Drakeford.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. May I start by welcoming the Finance Committee's report and thanking the Chair and members of the committee for the work that they have done?

The report will undoubtedly help us to continue to develop this relatively new financial instrument, making sure that we are able to deploy it effectively in the future. As you’ve heard, I’ve already responded formally to the report and to each of its recommendations. I was very pleased to be able to accept all the recommendations. The limitation on the acceptance of recommendation 7, for example, was simply in order to allow further discussions to refine the information that the committee would find useful. I’m very happy to ask my officials to pick up the point that Sam Rowlands made about the issue of risk in the way in which financial transactions capital is deployed here in Wales.

I am very committed to being able to provide the committee and the wider community here in Wales with as much transparency as possible about its use. There is some limitation on the extent to which you can provide simplified information, given the inherently complex nature of FTCs and the rulebooks that we have to operate within, as the Chair pointed out in his opening. But I hope that Members will recognise that the draft budget already reflects some of the committee's proposals in that regard.

Sam Rowlands asked questions about maximising the use of financial transaction capital. Well, I can say that we deploy every penny of it, and Mike Hedges, I think, made the important points about the extent to which the recyclable nature of this funding means that it comes back in, particularly through the Development Bank of Wales, and then is used again for the purposes to which it has been dedicated by the Welsh Government.

I think it is important to recall that FTCs were only introduced as part of the 2013 budget process. They were a device then, as Mike said, to allow George Osborne to invest without it being on the balance sheet and therefore to meet whatever artificial rule he was claiming to meet at the time. I think, by now, we can't hope that we will simply revert to traditional capital to fund all areas of Government spend, and therefore we have to maximise the ability that FTCs offer us to boost our investment in private and third sector organisations, while remembering that the key difference between conventional capital and FTCs is that FTCs have to be repaid. Therefore, in thinking of that other recommendation of the committee about the criteria for success in this area, and I set them out in my response: that use of the funds has to be feasible, visible, desirable, but it also, in this case—this is why it's different to conventional capital—has to be repayable. That has undoubtedly had an impact on the appetite of organisations in Wales to use FTCs, and while that appetite may be greater a decade into FTCs, it certainly was an appetite that had to be stimulated in those early days.

Now, as we evolve our approach to the use of FTCs and take incremental steps to improve the process and increase transparency, I am very keen to continue to work with the committee to continue to review the usefulness of this tool and how it might be refined in terms of reporting in future budgets. Progress has been made to address some of the other recommendations in the report. We anticipate that the reclassification of DBW will be considered by both Governments through the current spending review, and I will certainly report on the outcome of that to the Senedd. I've also committed to publishing revised guidance. We'll be offering training sessions to staff in policy areas across the Welsh Government to see if there is an appetite for use of FTCs more broadly than the relatively limited set of purposes in which it has been successively used up until now—[Interruption.]

Of course.

Just on that point, therefore, do you think that there is a fair bit more potential for the use of this particular mechanism in terms of funding capital projects, particularly in housing? Is housing an area that is crying out for the use of this kind of funding mechanism because one can recoup rent in order to pay back that loan?

I thank Siân Gwenllian, Dirprwy Lywydd. The area of housing is the area where we do use the majority of these FTCs, but if there's more that we can do and we can be more flexible in the way that we use FTCs in the area of housing, then, of course, I want to consider any suggestions to that end. What I think, after nearly a decade of using FTCs, is it is possible that there will be more demand for their use because people are more aware of them and we have experiences. We can show people in practice how the FTCs are used and how we can use them here in Wales, and the work done by the committee is very useful in terms of doing that.

So, let me just end, Dirprwy Lywydd, by thanking the committee once again for their work on the report. I look forward to continuing to work alongside them as we develop our thinking in this policy area.

I call on the Chair of the committee to respond to the debate.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'd like to thank everyone who has taken part in today's debate and has read the report. Given that we don't get an opportunity, very often, to undertake inquiries, it's excellent to have an opportunity to do a short inquiry like this.

I'll start with Mike Hedges, who talked about FTCs—

—and the history and some of the timescale issues and some of those things that we grappled with when we were talking about this. As Sam mentioned, Peter Fox was on the committee when we did this and it was great to have Peter there, and I do hope it wasn't the reason you left the committee. It's actually quite a good report, I think, so surely it wasn't that. [Laughter.] But he alluded to something that I think the Cabinet Secretary said, talking about that straitjacket that we're working within, and I'm hoping that the Cabinet Secretary will go to the Treasury and try and find the key to it, because that would be very, very useful.

I thank Heledd, who talked about how we could use this, because it's not the best way, perhaps, but it is available to us now, and the need to look at reform and at how we use this, but how we also have a better settlement and move things forward with the Treasury in order to have a fairer budget for Wales and something that is beneficial for the new Senedd that we'll be moving into after the next election. And thank you very much for your responses to the report, and I also thank you for your comments this evening.

It is an interesting but complex—you know, it's simple but complex, and that's the aspect that came through in this: how do you present very complicated things in a simple enough way for people to understand how they're used? And how do you do that linking with businesses, with arm's-length bodies to understand what that is? And how do you explain to your Cabinet colleagues how it could be used in more interesting ways within that?

And I thank Siân for the intervention on housing—that's extremely important.

So, just to conclude, Dirprwy Lywydd, Members will be more than aware that capital funding has been in short supply over recent years, so this is one way of doing it. And as a committee, we are also firm believers in good scrutiny and the ability to bring about positive change, and I think this is one of the ways that we try and push the agenda forward, as a committee, to go into some of these more obscure, maybe, mechanisms that we have of raising capital and using capital. That is why we have focused our recommendations on increasing the transparency and finding ways to maximise the use of FTC within the Welsh Government's budgets.

Again, I thank the Cabinet Secretary and everybody who's taken part and I recommend people read the report, because it is not that long, but it makes for interesting reading. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. 

Item 7 today is the Welsh Conservatives debate on employment, and I call on Samuel Kurtz to move the motion.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the motion on the order paper in the name of Paul Davies. I open this debate today on a topic of growing concern for us all: the state of the Welsh economy. Last week the Office for National Statistics published its latest labour market overview and the figures should serve as a wake-up call. These statistics do not merely represent abstract data points, they reveal the very real struggles faced by Welsh communities, Welsh businesses and Welsh families.

Let us start with unemployment. The unemployment rate in Wales has now risen for the seventh consecutive month, reaching 5.6 per cent. That is an increase of 0.7 percentage points in just the last quarter, making it the highest in the United Kingdom. Compared to the UK average of 4.4 per cent, it is clear that Wales is falling behind. Employment figures paint an equally troubling picture. Wales's employment rate has dropped to 70 per cent, the lowest across the United Kingdom, and nearly 5 per cent behind the UK average. Perhaps most concerning is economic inactivity. In November Wales's economic inactivity rate stood at a staggering 25.6 per cent—far above the UK average of 21.6 per cent. Behind these numbers are real people—young people struggling to find opportunities, workers unable to re-enter the job market and families facing financial insecurity. These are not just statistics, they are a stark reflection of the failures of this Welsh Labour Government. For seven months running, unemployment has climbed. For far too long, economic growth has stalled. This is not a sudden development, but the cumulative result of poor policy choices, missed opportunities and a severe lack of ambition.

Now, let us talk about why this matters. A strong economy is not just a 'nice to have', it's essential. It is the engine that drives everything else: jobs, public services, investment and opportunity. But here in Wales, our economic engine is sputtering. Like a neglected car engine, Labour has failed to maintain it. They skipped the oil change, ignored the warning lights and left it running on empty, and as a result, it's now slow, sluggish and struggling to get out of first gear. We've all seen the consequences of this neglect: small businesses, the lifeblood of our communities, are being squeezed by rising costs, inadequate support and excessive bureaucracy; investment in infrastructure and innovation, both essential to fuelling economic growth, has been patchy, if it's been present at all.

The consequences are clear: fewer jobs, lower wages and stalled growth, which leaves Wales lagging behind every other part of the United Kingdom. But it doesn't have to be this way. With the right leadership, the Welsh economy can move from sluggish to dynamic, from lagging to leading. What Wales needs is a Government that understands the importance of a strong economy and is willing to take action to deliver it. The Welsh Conservatives have that vision. Our plan for the economy is bold, practical and focused on delivering real change. A Welsh Conservative Wales would be a Wales that is open for business.

First, we would reinstate business rates relief at 75 per cent for the retail, hospitality and leisure sectors. These sectors have been hit hardest by rising costs and need urgent support to protect jobs and livelihoods. Second, we would abolish business rates for small businesses. This would provide a lifeline to thousands of entrepreneurs, giving them the breathing space they need to grow, invest and create jobs. Third, we would commit to raise up the whole of Wales. Talent is equally spread across our nation, but opportunity is not. It is unacceptable that some parts of our country still feel forgotten. We would ensure that investment is distributed fairly so that every community has the opportunity to thrive.

Why else would the Welsh economy be better nurtured under the Welsh Conservatives? Because of our values: we are pro-wealth creation, pro-tourism, pro-farming, pro-enterprise, pro-infrastructure and pro-business. It's clear that there are two options facing the Wales of today: a future of continued, managed decline under a Labour Party out of ideas, out of energy, out of their depth and, soon enough, out of office, content with their foot on the windpipe of the Welsh economy; or a future where the Welsh economic dragon is allowed to roar, soaring high as it is unleashes the pent-up potential of the Welsh people, of Welsh businesses and of Welsh industry, setting Wales onto a path of prosperity for all. That's why I urge Members to back business, to boost our economy and to undo the barriers to growth by supporting our motion today. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

I have selected the three amendments to the motion, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Yes, moved.

Formally—thank you.

I call on Luke Fletcher to move amendments 2 and 3, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I move the amendments in the name of Heledd Fychan. I can't promise to use as many puns as the Conservative spokesperson, but the figures do tell a story, and that's a story that isn't just told by members of the opposition but is told by many economists outside of this building, and the story isn't a good one. Wales does have some of the worst employment opportunities in the UK, the lowest wages, stagnating growth and poor productivity, and this isn't just an isolated issue, it's a damning trend. But what’s equally concerning is the Government’s constant attempts to brush it under the carpet and the refusal to accept that the current strategy isn’t working. Instead of addressing these issues head on, blame is shifted elsewhere. Before the general election, it was the Tories’ fault; a Cabinet Secretary recently said it’s the global economic conditions—those were present, to be fair, under the previous UK Government—and, in this specific debate, it’s not policy that is at fault, but the data available. Now, though data is not the primary issue here, I will concede that there is an issue with the availability and quality of data to measure the success of economic policy. We’ve known this for a long time. It was a point of discussion long before I was elected to this place, and it seemingly will be an issue past the next election, by the looks of things. So, on that point of data, I would welcome, from the Cabinet Secretary, a road map as to how we improve that data available to us. It's highlighted in the Government’s amendment, the Cabinet Secretary for finance has before raised the issues in relation to data, but there is nothing in the amendment outlining the next step forward, and it’s an important step.

Now, I think it’s also worth pointing out that, while the Conservatives have brought forward today’s motion, we shouldn’t forget their own track record on the UK economy. They want to talk about employment, and that’s fine, but that should also be discussed alongside wages. And the record of the previous Tory Government was that of the lowest wage growth—wage stagnation for 14 years, 900,000 children pushed into poverty, average wages just £16 a week higher in real terms than in 2010. That on its own isn’t a record to be proud of.

Now, where there is agreement on the original motion is how we support Welsh business. There needs to be a resolution on business rates, and there needs to be cross-party discussions on how we get to a place where the system is fair, because it clearly isn’t fair at this current moment in time. Yes, there needs to be investment in all parts of Wales, which will be helped by the reforming of the funding model and the return of decision-making powers over post-Brexit funding to the Senedd, which is what our amendment 2 seeks to address.

And finally, I draw Members’ attention to amendment 3. We would follow the OECD’s recommendation to establish an economic development agency—a return of the Welsh Development Agency—that would focus on growing Welsh business and creating a funding and advice landscape that is easy to understand, navigate and set economic development targets to reflect what is important to Government when it comes to economic growth. Growth for growth’s sake is of no use, but growth to resolve a specific problem, like eradicating child poverty, for example, does make sense.

It’s great to be able to contribute to this debate today, which highlights the unfortunate and devastating decline we’ve witnessed in our economic outputs since Labour gained power in Wales. Twenty-five years of this tired Government. They refer to themselves as progressive, but yet are seemingly regressive when it comes to the economy. We’ve been left in a situation by Labour where we have the highest economic inactivity, the highest unemployment rate and the smallest pay packets of any UK nation. They’re, quite frankly, shocking statistics that represent a continued failure from the Welsh Labour Government to kick-start growth, opportunity and investment into the Welsh economy, and, as a result, the people of Wales are, and continue to be, let down.

But they’re not just a list of statistics being complacently thrown around the Chamber today; they represent the job opportunities of people right across Wales, in every constituency, the job opportunities of the next generation, and the ability for young people to grow up, study and gain employment in Wales in the industries of today and the industries of tomorrow. To put it simply, Dirprwy Lywydd, the entire economic prosperity of our nation rests upon these frightening figures, which, at present, represent an extremely scary trajectory, should our direction not change as a matter of urgency.

If there’s anything the economic track record of consecutive Welsh Labour Governments have proven it’s that too much bureaucracy stifles growth, and that businesses should be given the tools and the climate they need to invest and grow, not micromanaged and supertaxed by this Government, which, as we’ve heard before from Labour benches, doesn’t even know what it’s doing on the economy.

Now, just today, Dirprwy Lywydd, Welsh Labour’s friends down the M4 proved yet again that it was a party-wide trait not to be able to manage the economy, when the Chancellor had to virtually start from scratch when setting out some refreshed plans just six months in, as she’s already talked the economy down so far that it has already flatlined, and even shrunk in September and October, following Labour’s acquisition of power in Westminster just last year. And in addition, Dirprwy Lywydd, we'll have already another statement from the Chancellor now in March on kick-starting growth yet again. It seems that this Chancellor is so desperate to see growth, but is actively putting policies in place that prevent it.

Basic economics tells you that higher taxes take away from people's disposable incomes, naturally reducing spending, which in turn slows economic growth, and, if the Chancellor hadn't put those growth-stifling policies in place in the first instance, we wouldn't be in the position we are today, where Governments are making statements about their plan to restart and refresh and re-kick-start growth six months in. They'd have the confidence of the public and the economy and businesses just to get on with it.

As I said before, job opportunities and incomes and all those opportunities linked to these factors continue to hang in the balance, with the Welsh Labour Government doing very little to help. That's why our motion today calls on this Welsh Labour Government to take four simple steps that would have a hugely beneficial economic impact for the people of Wales: reinstating business rates relief up to 75 per cent from the current 40 per cent for the hospitality, retail and leisure sectors; abolishing the business rates tax for small businesses; levelling up the whole of Wales with a fairly distributed, adequate level of investment across the country; and step 4 is, if they can't do it, Llywydd, we will.

These are steps with the ability to open up Wales for investment, drive growth and provide job security for people across Wales, keeping home-grown talent here. We're living in unstable times. People understandably are nervous about the cost of living and rising bills, and now business owners are having further tax hikes to contend with, following national insurance increases by the UK Labour Party. So, I encourage you, everybody in this Chamber, and those watching I'm sure, to support small businesses by giving them the opportunity for the investment injection that they so deserve, supporting people across Wales with subsequent job creation, supporting people's pay packets, supporting hospitality, supporting our leisure, supporting our retail sectors. And if UK Labour cannot be anything other than negative, when it comes to talking down our economy, let's step away from that pessimistic rhetoric and make Wales a positive place for investment and prosperity, and let's open up business in Wales. That's why we've put this motion forward today, and that's why I urge all Members to support it.

Well, this is marching to the sound of gunfire, isn't it? The Chamber is packed with Tories who are talking—. They're the ones talking down the economy. Everything that was said was entirely negative. In spite of Tom Giffard saying that it's Labour talking down the economy, it's the Conservatives who are doing so for political advantage. Let's just remember this: 2010—[Interruption.]—. If you're all going to heckle me at once I can't hear you.

I want to hear the contribution from the Member, so if you'll allow me to do so without any heckling, please, I'll be very grateful.

I don't mind a bit of heckling, Dirprwy Lywydd. I don't mind. It was David Cameron and George Osborne in 2010—. And Tom Giffard mentions basic economics; well, you've got to pick a side in this, because, for every problem, there's a different policy solution. My side is basic Keynesian economics, and in 2010 the Keynesian lesson was you invest when the economy's underperforming, you invest to build and grow, which is where we are now with the UK Labour Government. What David Cameron and George Osborne did in 2010, with the support of the Liberal Democrats, was the opposite. That's when austerity began and that's when our continual decline, that led through Brexit, led through Theresa May to Liz Truss and all those disasters—. That was followed through from those early days of David Cameron.

Would you not acknowledge that Alistair Darling, who has, unfortunately, now passed away, stated before his last budget that austerity had already arrived? That was inherited, and the Keynesian model you refer to requires Governments to reduce spending as a proportion of GDP when an economy is growing in order to increase spending as a proportion of GDP when an economy is slowing. They broke that rule, and the consequence was the austerity that Mr Darling had already acknowledged.

This reminds me of my university days: I'd say something, and then, 'No, actually, Hefin, you’re wrong.' Well, the point was the economic investment that happened during the later stages of the UK Labour Government was exactly that, and there weren't, under any circumstances, the same level of plans to introduce austerity in the way that it was done by David Cameron and George Osborne. It was introduced in a way that was devastating to communities in Wales, and let's not forget the public sector—[Interruption.]—the public sector in Wales is by far the biggest employer in Wales than in the rest of the UK, and that's where the devastating impact happened. I remember I was first elected to Caerphilly County Borough Council in 2007. By 2010, under the Conservative Government, that's when we first started talking about cuts and we've been talking about cuts ever since. But I think what the Welsh Labour Government's amendment does is address some of those misconceptions in the Conservative motion, so I'm really pleased to vote for it. I actually liked some of the things that Luke Fletcher said as well, although perhaps different solutions to the ones that the Cabinet Secretary is going to take.

Let me give you an example of an optimistic view from my constituency. Transcend Packaging at Dyffryn Business Park produce straws for global chains such as McDonalds and Starbucks, and they've just reached an agreement with Tokyo-based paper producer Itochu Corporation, and the two companies will develop a range of paper- and fibre-based packing products, enabling Transcend Packaging to expand into new markets in North America and in Asia. That's a Caerphilly success story and the Welsh Government has issued a press release today identifying that small and medium-sized businesses in Wales have secured export deals worth over £320 million as a direct result of Welsh Government support since the launch of the export action plan in December 2020. 

That is small business success and the trick with identifying which small businesses to work with is through those that can export, and those that can export are those that have been supported well by the Welsh Labour Government. And it's not just Japanese companies. In Tir-y-Berth in my constituency, we've got another growing company, Norgine, who make pharmaceutical products, and I visited them with Chris Evans MP a few weeks ago. And we can see the success that they're having as a growing business and employer in my constituency.

And it's not just foreign investment and small businesses that are looking successful in my constituency. The core Valleys lines are connecting communities, getting people to work in Cardiff and beyond in ways that we hadn't seen in the years leading up to the 2020s. The bus Bill, too, will start to develop those opportunities for employment. 

Finally, I just want to say one thing that is very close to my heart. If we're talking about employment, we can't forget those people with additional learning needs. You talk about economic inactivity; well, I look at my little girl and think, 'One day, I'd like you to be able to have a meaningful job.' In my 'Transitions to Employment' report I said:

'The Welsh Government should review support for job coaching for those...with Additional Learning Needs who request it. With reference to the good practice developed by Engage to Change and Learning Disability Wales, an ALN job coaching strategy should be prepared, expanding the provision of specialist coaches'.

I think we need to remember that it's not just about the kind of economic growth with exports and small businesses and successful firms; it's also about looking at those employees who need the most support, and I think job coaching for those with additional learning needs is really important. So, I'd like to take that opportunity to advocate for that as well. 

I could say more but I see I'm out of time, Dirprwy Lywydd, so I won't test your patience and I'll stop there.

It's very clear that the new Labour Government's damaging tax and spending policies, as well as the heavy-handed policies such as we see in the agricultural sector, will have a massive effect and are already having a massive effect on the economy in the United Kingdom, and that we're seeing the economy slipping further and further as a consequence of these. We're already seeing large businesses disinvesting and moving from the UK, and that's a very sad state of affairs.

Rachel Reeves's national insurance tax rise is a case in point. It was not just the breaking of a manifesto pledge, but it is a direct tax on business growth. This tax makes it more expensive to hire staff and will disproportionately affect small businesses across a wide range of sectors. And I'm not surprised to see businesses and their representative bodies from all sectors coming out so strongly against this, including the Road Haulage Association, farming unions, the Federation of Small Businesses, the hospitality sectors, to name a few, all of whom have raised concerns that it will suppress growth, wages and employment opportunities. 

It is clear that businesses across the United Kingdom are in for a rough few years thanks to Labour's anti-business mindset, or just plain incompetence in relation to the economy more generally. For over 25 years, the successive Labour-led Governments here in Wales have been at the helm of the Welsh economy, yet time and time again we see Wales languishing at the bottom of a series of tables. As we've already heard, Wales's unemployment rate has increased for the seventh consecutive month to 5.6 per cent, the highest rate in the United Kingdom, whilst the employment rate has fallen to the lowest rate in the United Kingdom, at only 70 per cent. This is all whilst Welsh Labour wage packets continue to remain at the lowest in Great Britain.

Dirprwy Lywydd, we know that Wales is a nation of small family-run businesses, full of aspirations of growth, but the truth is that they are being held back by Labour policy at both ends of the M4, like a drag anchor around their necks. Wales currently has the highest level of business rates for small businesses in Great Britain, who have historically faced lower amounts of support than their counterparts in England. Under the UK Conservative Government, businesses in the hospitality, retail and leisure sector paid half the business rates in England than the same businesses were paying here. Now, I know that businesses operating close to the border, such as in my constituency of Monmouth, feel especially let down and feel as if they're fighting an uphill battle, while their counterparts in England receive more support.

But all is not lost, as we've already heard from Sam Kurtz, as he eloquently described, under the Welsh Conservatives, Wales would be open for business. We have a plan—several plans—to kickstart the economy and reverse a trend that successive Welsh Labour Governments have set for the last 25 years. And, as we've heard, we would strengthen business rate relief for the retail, hospitality and leisure sector, support and protect jobs, and abolish business rates for small businesses, taking practical steps to increase growth.

We also want Welsh Government to level up all of Wales, ensuring fair levels of investment for all of the country, so the whole country can thrive. Welsh Conservatives in control would be a Welsh Government that stands up for workers and businesses in Wales and ensures that we stand up to the UK Labour Government's anti-growth taxation policies, in a way that this Welsh Labour Government simply doesn't want to do. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Low wages, slow growth, and high unemployment, three things that, sadly, epitomise the last 26 years of Labour Government in Wales. People in Wales have been held back by an underperforming Welsh economy and by an underperforming Labour Welsh Government, a Government that has strangled our businesses with high business rates, preventing them from being able to flourish and for our economy, therefore, to reap the benefits.

Unemployment in Wales has risen by 50 per cent since Labour took power, and these latest figures show no sign of improvement. The Office for Budget Responsibility has predicted that Labour's tax increases will cost the UK 50,000 jobs and will reduce productivity and seriously hurt working people. Unemployment will not improve until both Labour Governments take bold, immediate action, and ensure that we reinstate the 75 per cent business rate relief. We need a plan, and we need to cover the costs of the national insurance increases for employers.

Not only that, but this Government is not thinking ahead, it's not planning for the future; it's failing to ensure that our future generations are being skilled for future jobs. The Government is failing to provide an array of apprenticeship opportunities, like they have over the border, often resulting in a lot of talent here moving out of Wales. This Government has failed to support our universities, as we've just seen very recently, and failed to realise the importance of them to our economy. We've not only seen 400 jobs being lost now at Cardiff University, but key courses being axed that will have an effect on the economy and jobs in Wales.

There is just no joined-up thinking. And talking about a joined-up approach, does this Government really think it's future-proofing the economy by not encouraging enough people to go into science, technology, engineering and mathematics? Is dumbing down sciences in our schools this side of the border to double science, and limiting the opportunities to take single separate sciences, really sending the right message to our young people and pushing them in the direction of future jobs? Shouldn't we even be looking at teaching coding in our schools? This Government needs to think ahead. Over 14,000 young people are currently unemployed in Wales, waiting for an opportunity, waiting for a career. We need to prepare. Are we really preparing our workforce? Do we have an industrial strategy? Do we have a good business strategy that will produce these opportunities that we are crying out for? We need to be competitive, not just within the UK, which we are failing at miserably, but we need to be competitive with the rest of the world.

And talking of the rest of the world, the Welsh Government have satellite offices now, from North America to the middle east, and 21 international offices, I believe. At what cost? Whatever it is, it's wasted money if we don't have a coherent, ambitious strategy to go alongside them. We need to be attracting inward investment, making Wales open for business, as has been said, and the place to do business. This will in turn create much-needed jobs. Unfortunately, I know many big businessmen and women who are put off investing in Wales due to the atrocious infrastructure that we have in Wales, particularly as you enter Wales via the M4, where the decision to not go ahead with the M4 relief road effectively put up 'closed for business' signs across our border, signs to the international business community and for inward investment, which was crushed.

We have to manage to attract some good industry into Wales, and we have managed some. The compound semiconductor industry, for one, is brilliant, which I had more information on recently on a visit to Compound Semiconductor Applications Catapult in Newport. There is so much potential and opportunity there about what's happening in this industry, and how we are leaders in some areas in the world, but are we really making the most of that, not just for my region, but for the whole of Wales?

Free ports: another success story for Wales, but sadly, again, not of your doing. This Government's lacklustre approach to this $1 billion opportunity just sums up your approach more generally to jumping on these fantastic opportunities that will boost the whole economy of Wales, and again provide those much-needed job opportunities. Anglesey free port is now up and running, along with the Celtic free port. Seventeen thousand jobs have been created, and billions of pounds of inward investment will follow, and we need more of this: an initiative achieved thanks to the last UK Conservative Government.

And now, Labour have landed us with the increases in national insurance contributions for employers, which are crippling for many. This will inevitably result in more job losses, and already has, and businesses closing. An economic survey conducted by Chambers Wales has shown that 24 per cent of businesses are predicted to cut staff because of recent Labour policies. It's a sad state of affairs. And rather than helping, Labour Governments at both ends of the M4 keep exacerbating the problem due a team of economic illiteracy between Rachel from accounts at one end of the M4, and an equally incompetent devolved Government closer to home. Wales has the worst economic inactivity rate of British nations, sitting at 25 per cent compared to the rest of the UK.

You need to conclude now, please.

The unemployment rate for disabled people in Wales is double that of an able-bodied person. I just want to say to the Member for Caerphilly, I completely concur with what you said, that we need to look into opening up those opportunities, making them more accessible, making interviews fairer et cetera for disabled people, so that we bring them into the economy.

It's time to face facts, Deputy Presiding Officer: Labour's socialist policies are keeping Wales poor. Wales has the talent. It's time for a Welsh Conservative Government to get Wales moving again, to fix Wales, provide those job opportunities—

You need to conclude.

—and the Welsh Conservative Government would make us, once again, open for business. I urge you to support our motion today.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning, Rebecca Evans.

Well, I thank the Welsh Conservatives for the opportunity this afternoon to remind the Senedd of the absolutely dire situation that the UK Labour Government faced on coming into power: the highest level of debt since the 1960s, and a £22 billion black hole in public finances, all covered up by the Conservative Party, and all of which contributed to the destabilisation of our economy here in Wales.

I also want to take this opportunity to remind colleagues of the importance of using data and statistics responsibly. The issues with the reliability of the Labour force survey data in relation to rates of employment, unemployment and economic inactivity aren't a secret. Our chief statistician has blogged about them; I've spoken about them in this Chamber before; and I even issued a statement on 14 November. But you don't have to take it from the Welsh Government: the Office for National Statistics themselves have made statements being crystal clear that the ONS no longer designates the data referred to by the Conservatives this afternoon as accredited official statistics. They're now official statistics in development until further review, with caution recommended when interpreting the data.

But, other LFS users, including the Bank of England and the Office for Budget Responsibility, they've also expressed concerns about the quality of the UK level estimates, and a recent Resolution Foundation report highlighted the fact that we currently don't actually know what the UK employment rate is due to the problems with the Labour force survey, and they estimate that the national inactivity rate is likely to be materially overestimated.

So, I'm not sure how much clearer the Welsh Conservatives would like the Welsh Government to be, or the ONS, or the Bank of England, or the Resolution Foundation, because I think that we've recognised now that the Welsh Conservatives either aren't paying attention, or they're deliberately misleading people, and either way it's not good, but perhaps they can let us know which it is when they sum up in this debate.

The best way of understanding the performance of the Welsh labour market is to consider the longer term trends across a basket of indicators, and these include sources such as HMRC real-time information on paid employees, data on workforce jobs, the claimant count, and the annual population survey, which the Welsh Government pays to boost, so that we have more accurate Welsh data.

So, evidence from these data sources does suggest that the labour market in Wales has followed similar trends to the UK as a whole since the pandemic. In fact, this wider basket of data shows that Welsh workers have more money in their pay packets than many of their equivalents in the rest of the UK. In 2024, median gross weekly earnings for full-time adults working in Wales were higher than the north-east of England, the east midlands, Northern Ireland, and Yorkshire and the Humber. And in December, the proportion of the workforce claiming benefits, mainly for reasons of unemployment, was lower in Wales than the UK rate.

So, given the challenges that I've described, and in answer to Luke Fletcher’s question, the ONS is introducing a new transformed labour force survey, which they plan to become the main data source for information on the labour market in the UK and Wales in the future. And the ONS is continuing to test and design improvements for that, and they've indicated that they will say more on progress in the spring. I have met with the UK chief statistician on this point, and our statisticians here in the Welsh Government are fully engaged in that work.

So, I'm focusing on delivering the First Minister's priority area of delivering good jobs for the people of Wales, and I'm busy securing inward investment to increase the number of quality jobs here in Wales, which will, in turn, create strong regional economies with greater opportunities for small businesses to thrive and to grow. Already, thanks to Welsh Government action, we've secured a £1 billion investment into the Eren group’s Shotton paper mill in Deeside, £45 million into Jayplas in Swansea, and £50 million into Vishay’s semiconductor plant in Newport.

We're providing support to businesses and employers through our non-domestic rates relief. We're providing £134 million of extra support this year, and £85 million additional next year. That, of course, is an addition to our permanent reliefs, which are worth more than £250 million annually. So, that's more than £0.33 billion each year being spent by the Welsh Government on helping businesses with their bills.

We're also actively collaborating with the UK Labour Government via the Department for Work and Pensions on one of their inactivity trailblazers. Our officials are already working with their opposite numbers in the DWP and the Wales Office to develop options for the scheme's implementation here in Wales. And with my colleague the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership, we're also ensuring that our workforce has the right skills to meet the needs of businesses and to provide people with quality, rewarding jobs.

Will you take an intervention on that point?

I will do.

Thank you for taking an intervention. At a recent Finance Committee, both the Institute for Fiscal Studies and the Office for Budget Responsibility acknowledged that the recent national insurance increase for employers is both going to supress wages and reduce job growth. Do you regret the UK Government's implementation of that policy then?

I've said before, and again we're repeating ourselves over and over in this Chamber, but I've said before that the UK Government—even at the start of my speech today—was set a really incredibly difficult task, and they've had to take choices that they wouldn't have wanted to have to take in order to balance the books and to deal with the black hole that they were presented with when they came into power. But also I think it is the OBR that has said that, actually, more than half of all businesses will either benefit or not be impacted by the changes as well. So, I think that's important to recognise.

But, just to return to that point on apprenticeships, I would just remind colleagues that we're spending over £143 million on providing people with apprenticeships in Wales, and that's the most that we've ever spent.

On regeneration and the replacement of EU structural funds, the previous UK Government's chaotic mish-mash of levelling-up programmes saw it trample over devolution. We now have a UK Government that is committed to working in partnership on our shared ambition to deliver jobs and growth in Wales. I'm also working closely with the UK Government on the industrial strategy to maximise our opportunities to accelerate economic growth and to bring good-quality jobs to Wales. And we're working together to unlock the strength and ambitions of Wales with a national wealth fund that will make investments right across Wales, so our industry leads the world—

Would the Cabinet Secretary give way?

Just a second—leads the world through investment in clean hydrogen, tidal energy, and carbon capture and storage, for example.

This close working relationship with the UK Government is something that this Labour Government here in Wales has championed as a benefit. Why, then, do you not sit, as the Cabinet Secretary for the economy, on the Welsh economic growth advisory group that the UK Government set up?

Because we're a Government—we're not stakeholders—so we work in partnership Government to Government, rather than sitting as stakeholders on groups.

Just to finish, then, in parallel, we're working with the UK Government on the AI opportunities plan, where Wales is well placed to secure the lion's share of a multibillion-pound investment. What we do have now, as I've said, is two Governments working in partnership with our local government colleagues to unleash Wales's potential after 14 long years of Tory neglect and stagnation.

It's a pleasure to close this debate this evening. I've been scribbling away for the past hour or so and I think it's fair to come to the conclusion that Labour have failed the economy, Labour have failed Welsh workers, and Labour have failed in all of these departments, many of which have been devolved to Cardiff for the last 25 years.

In Samuel Kurtz's opening remarks, he said that unemployment is up every month, it's higher in Wales than in England, with high rates of economic inactivity and people struggling to find employment. That's the reality people are facing here in Wales.

Luke Fletcher seemed to agree with what Samuel Kurtz was saying in many ways, and was equally critical of the Welsh Government's record on this matter. He was critical of the previous UK Conservative Government on wages, but it was the Conservative Government that increased the personal allowance, putting more money into people's pockets. That's the difference with the Conservative Party: we tax less and put more money in people's pockets.

Tom Giffard said we're in a regressive economy under Labour in Wales and highlighted the potential for economic opportunities with a Welsh Conservative Government, with lower business rates, hospitality and tourism opportunities.

Despite the predicted negativity from the Labour benches, Hefin David very positively put his ambition for expanding employment opportunities for people with disabilities, which is fantastic and something I think that everyone can support.

The remarks made by the Conservative Members were also echoed by Peter Fox and Laura Anne Jones very well, particularly on STEM subjects. It's shocking that the R&D spend in Wales is significantly lower than other UK nations. We can really do a lot more in terms of that department.

As I said last week in my remarks in the previous debate, the people of Wales have got a choice in this next 12 to 18 months in terms of navigating the direction of the future of this country. Do we want more status quo after 26 years of Labour, or do we want a party in charge who is ambitious about the economy in Wales and can really see the potential? That's the difference, and that's why people need to vote Welsh Conservative in the next 12 months. Thank you very much.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections, and I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Item 8, the Plaid Cymru debate, Brexit and the future relationship with the European Union. I call on Adam Price to move the motion.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. This debate is clearly called to mark a particular anniversary that we're facing on Friday—the fifth anniversary of Wales leaving the European Union. But we're here to debate not the past but Wales's future. People, I fully expect and anticipate, will express different views in relation to Brexit, and there's a difference of opinion that is held throughout the nation. But it's important that we look at the question of what we do now as objectively and as pragmatically as possible, because a lot is riding on that. I think it would be magical thinking, wouldn't it, it would be stretching credulity, to say that Brexit has been a triumph, the kind of step change that was promised to us at the time of the referendum. Nor has it been the complete cataclysm in totality that some had feared. The real picture is mixed. The problem lies in the make-up of that mixture. 

London has lost a few thousand jobs, according to most estimates, in financial services, but it remains Europe's largest financial hub and a global centre. Large companies, particularly those in the service sector, based in the south-east, have often weathered Brexit quite well, certainly compared to some of the most dire predictions for those sectors. That's because those large companies have the resources to navigate new rules, to offset higher costs more easily. It's small and medium-sized firms in small and medium-sized towns and cities and the villages and valleys that surround them that have suffered the most, because they have struggled to cope with the additional paperwork, with the supply chain disruptions, and they have less financial capacity to absorb or pass on additional costs. And it's unfortunate for us in Wales, isn't it, that what I've just described is our economic geography. And by the way, what I've said about small and medium-sized firms also applies to small and medium-sized farms in particular in terms of the crisis that they've had to face. 

Brexit has not worked for us. I think that we have to be honest and objective about that. And it's reflected, I think, in the estimates of the billions of pounds of losses to the Welsh economy that we've set out in our motion. You can argue about the precise figures, maybe, but I think that the general picture that they paint is difficult to disagree with. The problem is this: in the world we're living in now, it's likely to get worse. In a world in which global trade is disrupted by tariffs, regional wars, climate change, and supply chains are becoming shorter, proximity matters. And so that European market is the shock absorber for us in an increasingly uncertain world. 

If that's the analysis, what is Wales's European strategy? Well, the problem is this: nobody knows. We don't know, the UK doesn't know, Europe doesn't know. That's what the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee said in its report, essentially, on UK-EU governance. We don't have a strategy at the moment. Some people might summarise our European strategy in two words: Derek Vaughan. He does deserve an honourable mention, I think, in the amendment, and he is very effective in his role. But you can't build an international strategy around a single individual, no matter how charming or well networked, unless maybe it's Benjamin Franklin in Paris. We need a strategy and we lack one at the moment, and this is mission critical for the future of our economy. 

The top line of any strategy has to be the goal, and, for us, it's clear what that goal should be in the near term: it's to rejoin the single market and the customs union. To achieve that goal, there should be two broad elements to the strategy, if you like, the political and the practical; what we say and what we do. In terms of the political, the most powerful thing that the Welsh Government could do is simply, explicitly to say that we are in favour of membership of the single market and the customs union. The Scottish Government say so; the mayor of London has essentially said so—he's said that we shouldn't be scared of rejoining the single market. More voices within these islands saying that in relation to the single market de-risks the idea for the Westminster Government that, at the moment, are haunted by the ghost of Brexit past. 

I'm not engaging in magical thinking, either. I don't think that Keir Starmer is going to be converted to joining the single market tomorrow. But in our taking here a more radical position, it will speed the pace in their taking the intermediate steps that are beneficial to us: a youth mobility agreement, a veterinary agreement, a qualifications agreement, dynamic alignment on goods, a rules of origin trade agreement as part of the pan-Euro-Mediterranean convention. The Treaty of Rome will not be rebuilt in a day, but we can rebuild bridges faster if we in Wales find our voice. If that’s what we say, then what should we do? Well, if we’re really sincere about placing Wales at the heart of Europe, let’s demonstrate that by committing to maintaining minimum European standards in the areas of law for which we are responsible, and keeping pace with new European law in those areas. Northern Ireland does that automatically through the Windsor framework. Scotland does it voluntarily through its continuity Act, an idea that it adopted from us before we repealed it. We could pass a new European alignment Act to give Welsh Ministers—subject to Senedd approval—a route to align with new EU law via secondary legislation where that was in Wales’s best interest.

A policy of alignment would have three benefits: it would mean we kept up with world-leading standards in areas like environmental protection; it would directly help Welsh businesses in accessing European markets as seamlessly as possible in those areas of product regulation where we have competence; and it would send a positive pro-European message, which will help us market Wales to investors, customers and partners in Europe. As part of a wider strategy, of course, we can look at other actions as well. We can build on the excellent experience of the Taith programme, expand it to other areas in scale and in scope. We could review our presence on the ground, much more important now than it was when we were in the European Union. Twenty years ago, Wales had an office in Italy, an important market for us still, through the WDA, and we might have something to say about that as well in other debates. We need to look at our presence on the ground because we need people there, selling Wales as effectively as possible. We should look to work with partners across Europe, but particularly our nearest European neighbour, Ireland, working together with Ireland—north and south—and Scotland as European-facing nations, if you like, sending a clear message that we see Wales at the heart of Europe.

In a world that is changing, and it is an uncertain world, standing still is not an option. The status quo is not an option. We do need to reset, but reset, in my mind, is best thought of as an active verb than an abstract noun. Let’s lead the way, and hopefully, that way, Westminster will follow.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on Darren Millar to move amendment 1.

Diolch, Llywydd. I move the amendment on the order paper in the name of Paul Davies. Can I begin by saying that this Friday for me is a celebration of democracy? Because in leaving the European Union, the previous UK Conservative Government honoured the wishes of the British people who voted in a historic referendum to leave the European Union. It resulted in a huge repatriation of powers to the United Kingdom and extra powers here in Cardiff Bay in our Senedd. People voted to leave in spite of the fearmongering and, frankly, outright lies about what would happen if we left. We were told—[Interruption.] I’ll give way in a moment. We were told that Brexit would lead to rising unemployment, a collapse in house prices and shortages of every imaginable commodity, from fresh fruit and vegetables to Viagra. Yet what happened? Well, the prophets of doom were completely wrong.

Would you agree that at no point in the campaign did anyone in the ‘vote leave’ campaign advocate for leaving the single market and customs union? In fact, there were a number of prominent members of that campaign who said of course we would never have to leave the single market and customs union. So, surely you’d want to support our motion.

I made it clear that I wanted to leave the single market, and it was said by the detractors of Brexit that if you do that, you’ll leave the single market. So, frankly, I’m not sure what you’re going on about. I’m amazed that Plaid Cymru have the audacity to hold this debate today, because in doing so, they’ve reminded us about the contradiction at the heart of their own political thinking. They claim that they want to break away from the most successful union that the world has ever seen, the union of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The UK is a union that provides Wales with national security and economic security. We're defended by one of the finest armed forces in the world and we're part of the sixth largest economy in the world.

Will you take an intervention?

Yet you want to dismantle that successful union that works for Wales and has worked for many centuries for Wales, and not to achieve an independent Wales, as you often claim—I'll take your intervention in a moment—but to shackle Wales instead to a far more restrictive union, the European Union, with its barmy and bloated bureaucracy a burden on Welsh and British taxpayers and the lack of democracy and direct accountability of its decision makers. I'll take it.

Thank you for taking the intervention. Describe to me how the economic stagnation that Wales has been suffering as part of the United Kingdom or the entrenched child poverty that we have in Wales as part of the United Kingdom makes this a successful union for us. And remember, of course, that Brexit is the opposite of the pursuit of Welsh independence and that Brexit was turning our backs on the world, when seeking Welsh independence is wanting to take our place in the world—direct opposites.

Look, I'm pro European, but I'm not pro European Union, and I have to say you've identified two failures—the economic failure that we've seen in Wales and the child poverty progress that we haven't made in Wales. They're failures of this clapped-out Welsh Labour Government and, in fact, the coalition that your party formed part of for a number of years, propping this Government up for such a long time.

Now, there's an inconvenient truth that Plaid and Labour would like us to ignore, and it is this: the people of Wales spoke very clearly on this issue. They voted to leave the European Union. Plaid Cymru, so-called party of Wales, wanted to ignore their voices. You did all you could as a party to block the decision of the people of Wales, and you ignored them. You claim to be a party of the people of Wales and you're not. You don't like it, but it's an inconvenient truth that that is the case and the fact of the matter.

Now, Llywydd, the benefits of Brexit became apparent almost immediately. Let's take one of them. It was very, very visible right at the start, just after the situation of our leaving the European Union: the COVID-19 vaccine roll-out. Now, people here in Wales and across the UK benefited from a faster vaccine deployment programme than any other part of the world, and that speedier roll-out literally saved thousands of lives here in Wales and across the rest of UK. It was only possible, Llywydd—only possible—because we had left the European Union and the European Medicines Agency, and how did the EU react? How did the EU react? They tried to prevent us from having the vaccines that we had ordered from the Netherlands for the British market. Now, imagine that. The European Union and its supporters were willing to risk lives here in Wales because they couldn't stomach the fact that we were saving lives faster than they were. Thank God we had a Prime Minister who stood firm, got those vaccines, saved lives and we demonstrated the value of standing on our own two feet.

We've also heard this week about the fact that we've got a new free port operating on Anglesey, Ynys Môn, in the Plaid leader's own constituency. Thousands of jobs, billions of investment coming into Wales as a result of these free ports, which would not have been possible if we were members of the European Union.

So, in closing, I want to say this: the greatest benefit of Brexit is the return of democracy to the United Kingdom. For decades, the EU showed contempt for the democratic will of its member states. In 1992 the Danes voted against the Maastricht treaty, they were told to vote again. In 2001 the Irish voted against the Nice treaty, they were told to vote again. In 2008 the Irish voted against the Lisbon treaty, and once more they were told to vote again. In 2005 the French and Dutch voted against the EU constitution, they weren't even given the chance to vote again, it was simply repackaged as the Lisbon treaty and imposed by their national Governments. The UK was the first country to hold a referendum on the EU and actually respect the result. That's something I'm proud of, and I support the people of Wales in their decision to leave.

The Cabinet Secretary for economy now to move formally amendment 2.

Formally—I was stunned, sorry. 

Julie Morgan.

Diolch, Llywydd. It's a pleasure to speak in this debate today. If you ask anyone in the street how they've benefited from Brexit, I think most people find it very hard to answer, and opinion polls do confirm this. I'm sure that many Members will have seen the YouGov poll that was published today: 55 per cent of Britons say it was wrong to leave the EU and it's the lowest proportion saying it was right to leave since the referendum—

Will you take an intervention just on polling?

I've only just started. And a multilevel regression with post-stratification survey by YouGov last week showed that more people in every constituency in Wales, Scotland and England backed a closer arrangement with the EU than with the US. Of course, as has been said today, I absolutely accept that Wales voted to leave the EU and that has dictated the way that we've had to respond to policy since. But I've no doubt that public opinion has changed, and I find that in my daily work in the constituency; I do believe that people no longer think it was a good thing to leave the EU. And I am glad that the UK Government plans to reset its relationship with the EU. I mean, I hope, eventually, that we will rejoin the single market and the customs union, but I do think that will take time, bearing in mind that there was a democratic vote to leave the EU.

I now want to just say a few words about the impact that Brexit has had on young people and the loss of opportunities for them, and how much harder it is for young people to have the opportunities that many of us have had to live, work and travel freely in the EU. Certainly, after the Brexit result was announced, I had so many young people coming to me in my constituency saying how bitter they felt that they had lost all these opportunities, and at that time, we didn't have votes for 16 or 17-year-olds and they couldn't vote in that referendum, and they felt that older people had shut off their future. And I'm very keen that we do as much as we possibly can to ensure that young people have as many opportunities as they possibly can.

And I'm very pleased that Adam Price mentioned the Taith programme. I think it is great that the Welsh Government has invested £65 million into the Taith programme and has expanded it beyond and further afield than the EU. I think it does show that Welsh Government is committed to keeping our international links in Europe and across the world. And, of course, we do want our young people to be internationalists; we want them to have as many experiences and as many wide experiences as possible.

One of my constituents runs an organisation, Schools into Europe, and I'm sure that you can imagine the difficult, logistical challenges that he's had since we left the European Union. And there are many things that are arising all the time that make it increasingly difficult for young people to go to Europe. For example, the Home Office is pursuing a drive towards a one-document-per-traveller policy, a part of which will involve the withdrawal of the collective passport. This is something that was decided on by the previous Government in the UK, a Conservative Government, in 2022. And at the moment, a school group can travel member states without individual party members requiring their own passports, which for schools in areas of deprivation is really the difference between being able to travel abroad or not being able to travel abroad, because a collective passport costs £39 and covers the entire group, whereas individual child passports cost £57.50. And so, despite repeated lobbying, the Home Office is continuing to pursue this policy, citing border security. So, I wondered if the Minister, when she makes her contribution, or the Cabinet Secretary, could perhaps comment on whether there are any discussions with the Home Office to try to perhaps not introduce this decision that was made during the previous Government.

Secondly, before Brexit, the list of travellers scheme enabled any pupil of a British education establishment to travel to the EU without the need to apply for a visa, and that has now changed. The other examples of difficulties that are arising are that there are currently two incoming schemes that will radically impact travel to Europe: the entry/exit system, EES, which will require schoolchildren to undergo biometric scanning at the port, and which the Port of Dover has categorically said will cause extreme delays, again decided by the previous Government; and then ETIAS, the European travel information and authorisation system, under which travellers will be required to obtain pre-authorisation to travel before travelling to the Schengen area. These two things are coming in; they're going to make it even more difficult for children to travel, and I just make a plea, really, for us to do all we can, as a Government here in Wales, working with the Home Office, to try to remove these restrictions that have come about as a result of Brexit, and try to open up more opportunities to our young people so we don't become inward looking in Wales, but that we're able to act and function on an international scale.

As Adam has already outlined, you can't credibly argue that Brexit has been a success, no matter how hard the Conservative leader tries. Brexit never needed to mean leaving the single market or the customs union. Delyth is right: throughout the Brexit campaign, a number of prominent leavers advocated for staying within the single market and customs union. Remember the Norway model that was something that was touted so many times in television debates and in articles across the board. Where's that now? It's completely forgotten.

Almost 10 years after that referendum, and five years after those promises were broken, and here we are, £4 billion poorer as a nation than we should be—now, there's one figure that we didn't see on the side of the Brexit battle bus. According to research conducted by Cambridge Econometrics for the Greater London Authority, gross value added in the UK as a whole in 2023 was approximately £140 billion less than it would have been had the UK not opted to leave the EU single market and customs union. Here in Wales, leaving the single market and customs union has gutted entire industries, almost wiping them out overnight. The Welsh shellfish sector, for example, has been dealt an absolute hammer blow by Brexit. Farmed finfish and shellfish saw an 82 per cent fall in value between 2019 and 2021, and a staggering 93 per cent decline in total tonnage produced.

Welsh manufacturers and services have all suffered as a result of the particular Brexit negotiated. In addition to the £1.1 billion it has cost them and us in exports, leaving the single market and customs union has also left us with a bill for the installation of border control posts at our ports—infrastructure we didn't need. Here we come to another broken promise: 'not a penny less'. It was promised that the UK shared prosperity fund would replace, pound for pound, funding that previously flowed to Wales through the European regional development fund and European social fund. It never did, and now we remain none the wiser as to when and what to expect in terms of a replacement. The reality is that Wales is being short-changed to the tune of £1 billion when it comes to structural funds, and now the future of regional development funding is subject to the changing whims of Westminster, rather than the previous needs-based criteria.

Now, while this is our situation, we have a case study in how it doesn't have to be this way in the form of Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland functionally remains in the single market and customs union, and is the only part of the UK where the Cost of Brexit project has not found a negative Brexit effect on economic output. The National Institute of Economic and Social Research found that Northern Ireland's preferential access to the EU market has brought significant economic benefits. So, the case for rejoining the single market and customs union is there to be seen in the example of Northern Ireland, and it is time that we accepted this most basic of economic realities.

I was reading today's The Times earlier to discover that the European Surfing Federation is moving their headquarters from Cornwall to France. In many ways, it sums up the disaster of Brexit, doesn't it? It's a decision that's driven by business, by people, by culture and by reality. So, when we talk about Brexit, what we talk about is something that has diminished Britain, that has diminished the United Kingdom. It has marginalised us in business, it has marginalised us in diplomacy and it has marginalised us in culture. There isn't a single aspect of British life that is better as a consequence of Brexit than had we stayed in the European Union. [Interruption.] I'm being heckled by an European citizen, of course, because the leader—[Interruption.] I will give way. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, of course, thinks that Brexit is so good he's retained his European citizenship.

I'm proud to be an Irish citizen, as well as a British citizen, and I'm proud to be Welsh as well. You made reference to not one benefit coming. Don't you accept that there are people alive in Wales today—including in your constituency, which, by the way, voted by the largest margin to leave the European Union in the whole of Wales—do you accept that there are people alive today, because of that faster vaccine roll-out and deployment here in Wales, which would not have been possible had we been a part of the European Union?

And that, you see—. And that, you see—. The European citizen in our midst tells a direct lie, because—. It is direct lie, and you know it is—and you know it is. I wouldn't use the word otherwise. Because the European structures and the European frameworks, the EU frameworks, were in place throughout the whole of that procurement process, and that is a fact. And, of course, the fastest vaccine roll-out actually didn't happen in England under the Conservatives, but it happened in Wales under a Welsh Labour Government. So, you need to remember the whole of your facts.

One of the more diminishing aspects of Brexit—one of the more diminishing aspects of Brexit—is how it has diminished our cultural output. We heard, and the culture committee—and the Conservatives didn't challenge this at the time, during that committee—about the way that British musicians and British cultural performers are unable to tour in Europe in the way that they were able to beforehand. So, Britain is diminished—our cultural output, who we are as a people, is diminished. I give way.

Diolch, Alun. Would you agree with me that there are so many ways in which we can actually measure the catastrophic harm that has been done economically to us as a result of Brexit, but that—exactly what you've just been talking about—is one of the ways in which we can't actually measure the harm? Because now artists have to go through different visa requirements for each of the 27 member states it means that only established artists get to embark on European tours. So, we never hear the new voices. That is something you can't measure. We never get to hear that talent emerge.

And we've lost it as a consequence. And when the committee start work on the review of the TCA, we will also hear that all respondents—all respondents—to the consultation report increased bureaucracy, costs, time and disruption to supply chains. Ninety per cent of businesses in Wales reported more and additional challenges, and the Conservatives regard this as a triumph of diplomacy and a triumph of democracy. I will give way, and I hope the Presiding Officer will be generous with me for doing so.

I would just ask the Member: does it not surprise you that so many of the leading Brexiteers now happen to have European passports?

No, it doesn't surprise me at all, because hypocrisy is hard-wired into the Conservatives. They worship Winston Churchill, of course, and his international legacy is the European convention on human rights. Now, he recognised, in the years after the Holocaust, that to prevent that happening again, you didn't just have to make law, but you had to make human rights a part of the culture and society across the whole of our continent, and they diminish it. And of course, another one of their heroes is Margaret Thatcher. Now, I remember Margaret Thatcher fighting tooth and nail for the single market that they no longer want to be a part of. So, they diminish their own heritage by doing so. But I have to, Presiding Officer, make progress and speak about the future of where we are.

I fully agree with what Plaid Cymru are saying in their motion this afternoon, and I'm disappointed with much of what has come out of the United Kingdom Government in London. I believe that we should be making the case to rejoin the European Union, and I believe that, in our politics, we should always be honest with people. We should always be honest with people. The Conservatives haven't been honest this afternoon, and I think there are many times when I hear UK Ministers today not being honest with people. The Chancellor of the Exchequer made a speech on growth this morning. She would be better off recognising that membership of the single market would do more to hard-wire growth in the UK economy than any number of runways she wishes to build, and that growth would be more equally shared across the United Kingdom in places like Wales as well. Because Wales has suffered as a consequence of Brexit, and I want the UK Government to recognise that, to say that, and to be honest with the people of Wales and the United Kingdom, and be absolutely clear that our economic and national future has to be as Europeans, and not simply following some sort of fantasy Ruritania. And I hope, Presiding Officer, that in the future there will be a proper role and recognition for this Parliament and the Government the people of Wales elect. We did have that before we left the European Union, as it happened. Myself, the Presiding Officer and others attended meetings of European councils to represent Wales. Nowadays, we're not even allowed to debate or discuss things like the shared prosperity fund, which apparently replaces European funding, but £1 billion less in funding for communities in Wales.

I will close on this, Presiding Officer. I'm grateful to you. We need, as a Parliament and as politicians, to be honest with people and to speak clearly about what we want to see. Brexit has diminished Wales. It has damaged Wales. For those of us who believe in Wales and believe in the future of the United Kingdom we need to say very, very clearly: we will campaign, we will argue, for rejoining the European Union and taking our place not just in the councils of Europe, but in the councils of the world.

Diolch, Llywydd. I’d like to start with the point you were ending on, Alun Davies, in terms of honesty, because that's the one thing that was lacking from those that were advocating for Brexit, and it is important, because it did damage politicians. It has damaged trust in institutions such as the Senedd, and we've got to reflect on that. And there is a hypocrisy, when you do have a European passport, to be—

Can I—? I'd like to put this straight, if I may make an intervention. I'm an Irish citizen. My mother is Irish. Three of my grandparents are Irish. I know you seem to be wanting to discriminate against me on the basis of my Irishness, but I have held an Irish passport for decades, long before the Brexit referendum, and I find it contemptuous, frankly, that I am being told to give up my citizenship of a country that I'm proud to be a citizen of.

There is no discrimination there, but when I talk about being a proud Welsh European—[Interruption.] When I talk being a proud Welsh European, that—

You've made your point, clearly, and I thank you for enabling us all to understand your situation, Darren Millar. That's useful.

Heledd Fychan to continue.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. I would say there is a slight hypocrisy when you do enjoy the whole benefits of EU citizenship, whereas we have had those denied, and we're seeing the impact of that on people in our communities. And the people of Wales have had their say on the Brexit deal that was negotiated by the Conservatives. They voted to have no Conservatives representing them from Wales in the UK Parliament. So why not reflect on that and listen to our communities? Because it's very, very clear that Brexit has not benefited our communities, and, if we want people to trust us as politicians, we need to reflect when bad decisions are made because of misinformation, and there were lies told. There were lies told continuously during that campaign.

So, we want to focus on the facts. According to analysis from the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, Brexit was responsible for a 2 per cent to 3 per cent real-terms decline in UK GDP during the first three years after the transition period, which equates to a loss of £850 per capita. The negative effects are likely to escalate in the coming years, with a real-terms hit of 5 per cent to 6 per cent. The Centre for European Reform estimates that Brexit was responsible for a £40 billion shortfall in tax revenues during 2020-21 alone, and, based on population share, that's £2 billion-worth of potential funding to Wales that was lost in a single year.

Now, proponents of Brexit used to argue that the resultant savings from not having to contribute to the EU budget could be reinvested into public services. Luke Fletcher mentioned that infamous bus, but, as the OBR concluded in March 2024, these savings have already been entirely incorporated into UK Government departmental expenditure lines. So, whatever the precise total of these savings, they haven't been anywhere near enough to arrest relentless public spending squeezes, which include a £559 million funding gap for Welsh local authorities over the coming financial year alone. Meanwhile, the need to navigate the reams of extra red tape after Brexit has generated new costs, such as the £87.6 million outlay on new border infrastructure at Holyhead, of which only £53.5 million has so far been committed by the UK Government. This means that, from 2026-27, the remaining £34.1 million might need to be found from the Welsh budget, an outlay we can ill afford, especially at a time when maintenance backlogs in the NHS, in our education sector, as well as our cultural institutions, have grown substantially.

When we consider the scale of this damage inflicted on the public purse, it’s difficult to know what’s more infuriating. There’s the knowledge that the principal cheerleaders of Brexit—that disreputable crew of multi-millionaires, tax dodgers, those that were willing to lie—aren’t the ones feeling the pinch; rather, it is our public services and hard-pressed working households that are having to carry the can. But then there’s the fact that, despite correctly identifying the need to address the UK’s anaemic record on economic growth and productivity as a route to restoring public finances, the UK Labour Government steadfastly refuses to pull the most obvious policy lever that could actually make an immediate positive difference, namely rejoining the EU single market and customs union. So, for the sake of our struggling public services, let’s hope that the powers that be at Westminster wake up to this inescapable necessity sooner rather than later. 

We have to be honest about the impact of Brexit on Wales and put in place a strategy to mitigate that. We are not going to restore faith in this Senedd or in any politician if we're not honest about the impact on Wales, and that we do insist that the UK Labour Government takes action. 

As my colleague Darren Millar said earlier, this is a good day for me. I love coming here to talk about Brexit and the benefits that it has brought to Wales and the United Kingdom, and I will say that some of the contributions from the opposite side of the Chamber here I think just show how out of touch opposition parties here are to what real people are saying out across Wales, because here we are again—another day, another debate where Plaid Cymru dusts off the old playbook. It clings to the past and peddles their tired old narrative of breaking up the United Kingdom while simultaneously hitching their wagon to the European Union. And let us call it what it is—a desperate, unworkable ideology that ignores the will of the people. 

But let's not forget in 2016 that the people of Wales decisively voted to leave the European Union by 52 per cent to 47 per cent. That's a clear majority. Plaid Cymru, however, refuse—[Interruption.] You refuse to respect that decision. Instead— 

Will you take an intervention? 

Not yet; I'm going to make some progress. Instead, they campaign tirelessly to drag us back into a system that we chose to leave, a system that ignored Wales for years. This is not democracy. It's a refusal to listen. Plaid Cymru is stuck in the past, while the people of Wales have moved on. Brexit gave us something the EU could never give us—control over our own destiny. It allowed us to take back control of our laws, our borders and our trade. That's what sovereignty means. Yet Plaid Cymru would happily surrender all that sovereignty back to Brussels. 

And what is Plaid Cymru's solution? They want Wales to rejoin the single market, the customs union and a back route to rejoining the European Union entirely. But let's just say what that means. Rejoining the single market means surrendering control of our laws to Brussels. Rejoining the customs union means we can't strike our own trade deals and, worst of all, we'd have no say over EU rules yet we'd be forced to follow them. 

And let's talk about one of the biggest concerns that people across Wales and the whole of the United Kingdom have. Let's talk about it. Plaid Cymru and Labour don't want to talk about it, but let's talk about controlling our borders. One of the clear benefits of Brexit is the ability to create our own immigration system. Under Conservative leadership, we introduced the Rwanda plan, a bold and clear, effective policy designed to deter illegal immigration, dismantle the business models of people smugglers who exploit vulnerable people. But what has Labour done? They scrapped the Rwanda plan, opening the floodgates for illegal immigration to increase. And only our party knows that a nation without secure borders cannot secure its own citizens, and that is the truth.

Plaid Cymru talks endlessly about breaking up the United Kingdom as if it's a source of all our problems. But let's not forget the strength we draw from being part of a union that has stood the test of time. The UK is more than an economic agreement; it's a bond of shared culture, shared history, shared opportunity, and breaking it apart would leave Wales weaker, more isolated, and not stronger—[Interruption.] Yes, I'll take an intervention, Heledd.

Do you not accept that, because of our proximity, we've always enjoyed having strong connections? Many of us feel European because of those connections. You look back at the connection between Wales going back with Ireland, other European nations, your argument makes no sense. You're talking about being completely cut off from those connections that we've enjoyed for centuries that form part of our identity. Can't you see the irony in your argument? You have made these connections disappear overnight.

Heledd, they've not disappeared overnight. I'm an internationalist. I want to be a part of a country that can strike trade agreements with any part of the world, not shackled to an institution that wants to do those deals for us. And here's the long irony: Plaid Cymru want to leave the United Kingdom and jump straight back into another union. Wales would have less influence than what it does today. That's not independence; it's total hypocrisy.

Brexit has brought us great opportunities. We have freedoms to strike our own trade deals tailored to our own unique strengths. We can create a system that supports our farmers, free of EU red tape and diktat. We can prioritise industries that matter most to Wales—[Interruption.]—matter most to Wales, through technology, through emerging markets—[Interruption.] That's what we can do.

I do want to hear James Evans. I will call Plaid Cymru. If you've put your name down, I may call you in the next few minutes to express your views. I know some of you haven't been called yet, so if you're quiet, I may call you. James Evans.

Diolch, Llywydd. I want to say to those people who are out there listening to this debate today: those of you who supported Brexit and believe in a strong United Kingdom, we hear you. You voted for sovereignty, secure borders, for a Government that puts its people first, not unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. Plaid Cymru doesn't understand that. Labour doesn't understand that. But we do. If you believe in the principles of Brexit, believe in protecting our borders in a strong, independent United Kingdom, then the Conservative vision is your vision. Plaid Cymru's vision is not a solution; it's a backward-looking muddled fantasy that would leave Wales isolated, weaker and controlled by unelected bureaucrats. You can laugh all you like, Rhun ap Iorwerth, but you're on the wrong side of history on this. I'm afraid to say you're finished. If Labour stick to this task as well, they are finished. We support those people who supported Brexit. We always will and always have.

Well, that's the best episode of Tory Jackanory I've heard in a long time, I have to say. Honestly. Honestly. The brass neck of Conservatives telling the rest of us that we're out of touch. Really? Really? Look, increased red tape, a worsening economic situation, damaging free trade deals, a trail of broken promise. Those are just some of the issues raised by farmers—raised by farmers—and those working in ancillary industries who are far from satisfied with Brexit. And that's not my list—[Interruption.] Hang on, I've been on my feet 25 seconds; you've been on your feet for about six minutes, you've just sat down. Give me a second to develop—. I know it's hurting, right, but it's your turn to listen this time, okay? It's your turn to listen this time.

Llyr Gruffydd.

Now, those were all highlighted in a recent Farmers Weekly survey—that's not me making this up—where they asked farmers—[Interruption.] Look, do you—?

You did have your six minutes; I was generous with you. You did have a lot of heckling, and I did stop them.

If you want me to heckle, I will.

No, no. Llyr, just carry on with your speech, okay? You're doing a very—

I can heckle myself. I'm very good at it.

And stop the pointing as well. Stop the pointing as well. Okay. Carry on, Llyr.

Right. Okay. In that survey, farmers believed that Brexit had had a negative effect. They overwhelmingly felt so: 75 per cent said it was negative for the economy; nearly 70 per cent said it was negative for their business. Now, one immediate effect that we felt in the industry in Wales, of course, is the loss of funding stability and security, because it stripped rural Wales of the stability provided by the EU's seven-year multi-annual financial framework. We're literally going from one 12 months to another, not knowing what's coming. That's undermined the sector's ability to plan for its future. It's undermined confidence. It's impacted the ability to invest in infrastructure, in innovation, and, of course, that means that we're falling behind our competitors who are moving ahead. The whole sustainable farming scheme debacle, if you like, the concern, the friction, the upheaval, it's only happening because of Brexit. It's only happening because we need to replace the common agricultural policy here in Wales.

Now, we've had broken promises, as we've heard, about the 'not a penny less' promise in the 2019 manifesto, and, of course, we know that Wales is around a £0.25 billion worse off since Brexit, and that equates, by the way, to about £15,000 per basic payment scheme claimant in Wales since 2019. In fact, agricultural funding in Wales is now £90 million less annually than under the common agricultural policy. And there are huge concerns, by the way, about that being eroded further by the Barnettisation of agricultural support.

It was interesting, wasn't it, because, earlier this afternoon, the Cabinet Secretary for finance was telling us that he was angry that the money coming from Westminster to cover the cost of the increase in national insurance contributions for the public sector in Wales is Barnettised instead of being based on the size of the sector in Wales, and he's right, of course, because the public sector in Wales is relatively larger than the rest of the UK, and it should be recognised in the way that funding is allocated rather than using the blunt, population-based Barnett formula. He's right to oppose it, but, of course, this Government is much more accepting of the same injustice when it comes to agricultural funding, and that needs to change. [Interruption.] Very briefly.

Thank you. Do you agree with me that, far from the comfort blanket that the UK was, as described by the leader of the Conservatives, Brexit opened the door to the UK Government undermining Wales through the Barnettisation of the funding for agriculture?

Well, absolutely, and it's being undermined in other ways as well, because we only have to look at the impact of some of the post-Brexit trade deals on Welsh farmers, which is causing huge concern. The Australia and New Zealand deal: the UK Government's own impact analysis predicts that hundreds of millions of pounds in losses will be experienced by the UK farming sector under some of these trade agreements. They expose Welsh farmers to unfair competition, again, from countries with significantly lower production costs and lower regulatory standards, and that's why we want the UK Government to revise its trade policy to prioritise domestic food security, high standards and fair competition for Welsh farmers.

Now, farmers have lost out on a level playing field as a consequence of Brexit. Abi Reader, the deputy president of NFU Cymru, was on Radio Wales earlier this week, and she said, 'All we want is a level playing field', and that's been lost since Brexit. Being part of the single market and the customs union would at least repair some of that damage. It's accepted that Brexit has made trading a lot more complicated for farmers in this country. There are issues now with veterinary certifications, increased border checks and controls. We've never had them before: plant health certification, and all of the chilled chain requirements for our perishable products. They're all added burdens, they're causing a lot of friction and, with that, of course, comes increased costs for the sector. [Interruption.] I'm afraid I'm out of time. 

We need closer alignment with our nearest neighbours and our biggest export market, and being part of the single market and the customs union would at least be a positive step for Welsh farmers and for the Welsh agricultural sector.

Llywydd, right at the start of this, I perhaps ought to say that we will be forming a cross-party group on Wales and Europe to rejoin the European Union, and I look forward to Members opposite supporting that.

Michael Heseltine was on television the other day, and he was angry because he was saying that Brexit has wrecked the greatest achievement of Margaret Thatcher, which was the creation of the single market. He went on to say that Brexit was won on a lie and it was a deception. That, of course, makes Farage the architect of that lie and that deception, and I suppose, in biblical terms, you'd describe him as the arch deceiver. When I looked at that term, I thought I'd look at what it actually meant. Well, of course, the arch deceiver is one who orchestrates deception, especially the devil—especially, but not exclusively, the devil. And if you go on to 'deceiver', it's someone who leads you to believe something that is not true, and that is what Brexit was, because we are now worse off, and we are getting worse, and it will get worse. Brexit is a political, economic and social cancer.

The clear economic statistics, agreed by nearly all the main economic monitors, with no political agenda: the average Briton is nearly £2,000 per annum worse off. Loss to the UK economy is assessed at £140 billion, and it's estimated that, by 2035, we will be £300 billion worse off than if we had not left the EU, and we currently have an estimated 1.8 million fewer jobs as a consequence.

And at a time when globalisation is taking place throughout the world, we see the great political blocs being formed already—China, India, Russia, USA, the EU—and we're not in any of these blocs at all. We are outside all of them. Now, Nigel Farage and, of course, the Reform party, talk a lot about the US special relationship. In fact, rather than being in his constituency, Farage virtually lives in the US, trying to get close to the White House. Well, I have to say, in my view, I don't think there is any longer a US special relationship. What the US wants, and certainly under Trump, is they want the UK health market. That's why Farage is supportive of the privatisation of the health service. That is why he is speaking about that now. Now, Lenin had a term for people like that and it was 'useful idiots'. Farage is Trump's useful idiot, and he’s working to see the break-up of the national health service, and that is a consequence of that politics.

The benefit to being in the EU, particularly at this moment in time, after Russia's invasion of Ukraine, a war in Europe, is that there was an interdependence and a common support that we are rapidly trying to keep going and to recreate. And we see the risks of what is happening as a result of that war—the threat, were Russia to succeed, in terms of Moldova, Georgia, the Baltic countries, Serbia, Poland, and the political consequences of that are significant.

The other thing that membership of the EU gave us was a common and an independent governance in terms of international law and the rule of law. So, things like the International Criminal Court, the European Court of Human Rights, the European Court of Justice—all those things are important because it was recognised that you cannot be the marker of your own homework, you cannot be the determinant of certain standards that you have signed up to agreeing. And yet we have a Conservative Party that wants to actually eliminate those, that wants to actually pull out of those, and that would be an actual disaster for the common governance, for international law, and for the rule of law as we know it.

Wales has lost out as a result of being out of the EU, and the consequence of that is that we've had UK centralisation. One of the things we should be doing now is looking at abolishing the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020, which was a consequence of that. But we've seen the centralisation of funding, and we've not seen the proper replacement of EU funding, and I share all those particular views with regard to the shared prosperity fund and the others that need to be resolved. But what we did have as part of the EU was that Wales had a sub-national status and the ability in devolved areas of engaging on a European front at the highest level of politics. We don't have that any more.

So, what are the steps forward? Well, the one thing I do welcome very much that's happening now, and the more positive messages that are coming out, is moving towards joining the single market and a customs union. And it's interesting, isn't it, to see Lord Frost—that Brexiteer who so berated unelected politicians, becoming an unelected politician himself—actually saying he has no objection. He doesn't think it matters. He doesn't think that's an issue or that it undermines Brexit. So, the first step, really, has to be rejoining the single market.

And I think there is a second step, and I will be working with this when we have this cross-party group formed—and, again, there's a conference this weekend where I hope that will be announced—and that is that we have to join the EU again. And if that means a referendum, well, with a decision that's been taken on a lie that you now recognise was a lie, there is no reason why the people should not have that choice again, and that is democracy also. Diolch.

Brexit has reshaped our relationship with Europe, and it is essential that we understand the particular impact of this on our young people and our universities. Before Brexit, our young people could travel Europe and have opportunities to work, to enrich their lives and expand their horizons, however, that has been significantly curtailed since Brexit. The National Union of Students has said that Brexit has created significant barriers for students wishing to study abroad, limiting their opportunities for personal and academic growth.

The end of the Erasmus+ programme has also been a significant blow. The Welsh Government's Taith scheme, although it's a step in the right direction, cannot fully replace the breadth of opportunities that were available before Erasmus+ came to an end. Funding for Taith has been reduced as well, of course, and a decision on its continuation beyond 2026 has not yet been made. The Erasmus scheme will come to an end next year, and I encourage the Welsh Government to work closely with the UK Government to evaluate the case for ensuring Wales's participation in the next Erasmus programme.

Beyond study opportunities, freedom of movement across Europe has been curtailed for our young people, and that they could come back with those experiences in order to promote the Welsh economy and culture. And as we have already heard this afternoon, our university sector faces significant challenges at present. Between 2014 and 2020, a sum of £366 million was awarded to Welsh universities by EU structures. That funding has disappeared, and that means that our universities are losing out and now face staffing cuts, and that is why—it's one of the factors why—our higher education sector faces very, very significant challenges. These projects supported businesses in the public sector, and also created about 1,000 high-skilled jobs outside our universities, and also 60 research, skills and innovation projects.

Finally, we can't undervalue the impact of Brexit on the recruitment of international students—again, a factor that has a direct influence on the situation that our universities face at present. UCAS, for example, has identified a reduction of between 30 per cent and 40 per cent in the number of student applications from the EU to Wales since Brexit. That is a shocking figure. Alongside this are the recent changes to the immigration system that were implemented by the Tories in Westminster, particularly the restrictions on dependents who could accompany the students to study, and that has been a major financial hit for our universities. So, these factors combined have made it very challenging for the higher education sector, which has seen a reduction of 40 to 50 per cent in international registrations this year alone, and this will mean a loss of between £70 million and £80 million in income for the higher education sector.

To conclude, therefore, Llywydd, we must advocate policies that support our young people and ensure that our higher education institutions continue to thrive in a post-Brexit world. Thank you.

The Cabinet Secretary for the economy, Rebecca Evans.

Diolch. Wales is an outward looking, European nation, and we place great value on our relationships with our European partners, and we want to continue our constructive, positive and successful relationships for years to come. It's this principle of mutual co-operation that is fundamental to how we tackle the global challenges that we face both now and in the future.

Despite a hard, chaotic, Tory Brexit, Wales has remained committed to maintaining a strong relationship with the European Union—a relationship that's based on the shared fundamental values of democracy, freedom, equality, the rule of law, and human rights. And despite all of the negatives of Brexit, which are clear for everyone to see and which colleagues have spoken about so clearly this afternoon, I really want to focus my remarks on the positive way in which we are trying to engage with the challenges and overcome them.

We want to work closely with our friends and our neighbours to address those global challenges, including economic challenges, geopolitical, competition, irregular migration, climate change and energy prices, which pose fundamental challenges to the shared values of Wales and the European Union and provide the strategic driver for stronger co-operation. We made a clear commitment in our programme for government to retain a presence in Brussels, so that Welsh interests in policy and trade are represented. Our Brussels team engages with the EU and ensures that the message about Wales being open for business is heard. After all, the EU countries want to continue to be Wales’s most significant trading partner and the largest source of inward investment.

Our Government’s manifesto also contained a commitment to strengthen our links with the EU through the appointment of a Welsh Government representative on Europe—so there is that honourable mention that we heard about in Adam Price’s contribution at the start. And this unique role has been a visible demonstration of our commitment to Europe, and it has received really positive feedback from the EU and also from UK and Welsh stakeholders alike, saying how that role has helped open doors to the highest levels within EU organisations and also enabled Ministers to directly address committees, highlighting initiatives such as our Taith programme.

Our role in the political bureau of the Conference of Peripheral Maritime Regions has also strengthened Wales’s standing in this network. Wales led a group of non-EU regions in an €800,000 EU-funded project that promotes research and industry collaboration in the blue economy. As a result, in 2023, Wales hosted the CPMR Atlantic Arc Commission general assembly, bringing together Ministers from EU regions plus Quebec to discuss inter-regional co-operation in the Atlantic sea. This was the first time that the general assembly had been held in the UK after Brexit, and it did provide an important opportunity to demonstrate that we can co-operate on shared interests despite EU withdrawal.

Reduced freedom of movement within the EU, however, is leading to significant challenges for businesses, the creative sector and individuals. The previous UK Conservative Government’s decision not to associate with Erasmus was deeply regrettable and it impacted significantly on our young people. In response, we established Taith, our international learning exchange programme, helping thousands of learners to experience enriching educational mobility activities. And through its many positive experiences, Taith is continually referenced by senior EU officials as a strong example of co-operation between Wales and Europe.

Going forward, a holistic approach is needed to restore mobility opportunities for young people to ensure that they’re not overlooked, and we do see this as a vital part of our global responsibility commitment in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. Last week, the future generations commissioner and our team in Brussels met with the EU’s first-ever commissioner for intergenerational fairness, Glenn Micallef, to share 10 years of learning in Wales since our groundbreaking well-being of future generations Act became law. Even outside the EU, we are having influence and we are showing leadership.

The trade and co-operation agreement now governs aspects of our relationship with the EU, including trade. In 2024, we published the Welsh Government’s approach to trade policy, and we said that trade policy needs to consider the long-term impacts of how we trade with other countries and the effects on our economy, our communities and the environment. The UK’s manifesto commitment to reset its relationships with the EU is welcome and it should be considered in that context. The TCA is not a like-for-like replacement of the market access that we had as EU members. Instead, it has created new barriers for Welsh businesses. However, it does create a comprehensive governance structure for UK-EU engagement, and we’ve used that structure to engage with the EU through the UK Government, and I hope that some of those trade barriers can be resolved. The implementation of the TCA will be reviewed, and whilst this might lead to small changes, it's the broader reset sought by the UK Government that could present more significant opportunities to make progress and remove some of Brexit’s negative consequences.

There are a number of areas that the UK Government should consider, including business and youth mobility, barriers to trade, access to programmes and a phytosanitary agreement, and we’re working closely with the UK Government to make these priorities clear. We make those cases through bilateral meetings and also I represent the Welsh Government on the inter-governmental committee on trade, which met earlier this month. I just want to reassure colleagues that those important points about youth mobility in particular are front and centre of the things that I am trying to raise in those fora.

So, for a number of years, the Welsh Government has prioritised closer ties with Europe and we've strengthened our bilateral agreements with countries and regions across Europe, and signed new ones, including with Silesia, Flanders and Baden-Württemberg in recent years. These partnerships reflect our approach to tackling shared challenges such as the climate crisis and to sharing economic opportunities to enable Welsh businesses to grow and compete on the European stage, and they also of course strengthen our cultural ties and build lasting relationships and friendships.

As we navigate the post-Brexit landscape, this engagement with our European neighbours continues to demonstrate that Wales is at its strongest when we're working collaboratively on the international stage.

Adam Price to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Llywydd. Well, how to summarise that? I think I'll start with the Tory contributions. There was a marked contrast with the amendment, which didn't say much at all, because quite frankly, what can you say? It simply notes. But what we heard was this kind of ferociously zealous kind of defence of all the benefits, and we were back in the sunlit uplands again, weren't we, which never arrived.

I have to say, in relation to the vaccines point, because I think it is important that we as politicians—as you know, Darren, this is a particular issue that's close to my heart—we have to be accurate, so the UK approved the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine through the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency on 2 December 2020, before the Brexit transition period ended on 31 December 2020. At that time, the UK was still subject to EU rules, but EU law, which we were subject to, allowed national regulations to grant emergency-use authorisation independently in exceptional circumstances. The UK decided to do that; other countries didn't. The MHRA used an emergency approval process that was permitted under EU law, and so Brexit did not influence whatsoever the speed of that decision. So, the Member may want to, when he has an opportunity, to look at this, and may want to correct the record in that regard.

I and Julie Morgan mentioned the Taith programme, as did my colleague Cefin Campbell, and indeed the Minister. I think we're big supporters of the principles of the Taith programme. It's important to note, sadly, that in the draft budget, the Welsh Government are cutting the budget for Taith. They are cutting it by £1.6 million.

I do want to hear Adam Price's closing of this debate. If we can hear it in some silence, please. Thank you.

And that was on the back of a further reduction that had happened previously, so I think if we're all agreed that Taith is good, then we're going in the wrong direction in terms of the financial support that's provided to it.

Luke Fletcher mentioned Northern Ireland, and the signs of the success of the model that they have, which is membership of the single market, which we should have here in Wales. It's reflected in the vote that they had, of course, just before Christmas, where the Northern Ireland Assembly used their political sovereignty to vote 48-36 to remain within the single market. If only we had that power to make that decision here in Wales.

Alun Davies referenced some of the—what was it—21 infrastructure investments announced today by the Chancellor. One for Wales would be great. Therein lies the problem, isn't it, because most of those, with the exception of Old Trafford, are in the already most affluent corner of the United Kingdom, the bit that doesn't need, quite frankly, much more infrastructure investment. And rather than creating an European silicon valley, maybe the Chancellor should be supporting the south Wales Valleys and all the other valleys in Wales, by actually investing in regional development policy and infrastructure investment, and getting us back in the heart of the single market, which is essential to our economy because we are a more export-intensive economy in Wales.

Mick Antoniw referred to the deceptive tactics that were undoubtedly used by some unscrupulous politicians in the Brexit referendum. It’s fitting that you were the Counsel General, Mick, that I think, partly as a result of that experience, said, ‘We are committed here in Wales, in the Welsh Government, we’re going to be the first democracy to outlaw and prohibit deliberate deception by politicians.’ Those who lead us should not be able to mislead us with impunity, because that has consequences. There are consequences for people’s lives. The kind of economic devastation that we’ve heard about in this debate is wreaking havoc in our communities and we need to do something about that. That’s why moving to the single market is essential. I agree with Mick about moving to the next stage. That’s the thing in a democracy, and I’ll say this to James Evans: public opinion never stays in one position.

We had a referendum in 1979 where people voted 8:1 against devolution. A few years later, after the closures of steelworks and the miners' strike, public opinion was shifting, because they thought, ‘If only we had our own parliament to protect us now.’ Public opinion moves when it sees the reality on the ground, and that’s reflected in all the opinion polls that I’ve seen in Wales and the UK. They’re showing public opinion on the move massively towards certainly getting a closer relationship through the single market, but eventually as well joining the European Union. Democracy never stays in one place.

We’ll abstain on the Government motion. There’s not much to disagree with there, but the frustration that we have is, 'Use your voice on behalf of all of us', because we need to inspire a bit of boldness at that other Parliament the other end of the M4. They are being timid at the moment, when they need to be audacious. We in Wales, working with Scotland and Northern Ireland, can actually provide the lead that is so lacking there at the moment.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. Therefore, we will defer voting under that item until voting time.

That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will move immediately to voting.

The first votes today are on item 7, the Welsh Conservatives debate on employment. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

We will now vote on amendment 1. I call for a vote on amendment 1, in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, no abstentions, 25 against. Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

We'll now move to amendment 2, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 11, 13 abstentions, 28 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is not agreed.

Amendment 3 is next, in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, no abstentions, 27 against. And therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

The final vote on this item is on the motion as amended. 

Open the vote. Close the vote. This vote is tied: 26 in favour, 26 against. I will, therefore, exercise my casting vote against the motion. And therefore, the result of the vote is that there were 26 in favour, 27 against, and the motion as amended is not agreed.

Item 8 is next, the Plaid Cymru debate on Brexit and the future relationship with the EU. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 11, one abstention and 40 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Amendment 1 is next. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, 11 abstentions and 27 against. And therefore, amendment 1 is not agreed.

We will next vote on amendment 2 in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, 11 abstentions and 14 against. Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

The final vote is on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, 11 abstentions and 14 against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

That concludes voting for this evening.

We will, therefore, move to item 10, the short debate. The short debate this week is in the name of Delyth Jewell, and when Members have quietened down, Delyth Jewell may begin.

Thank you, Llywydd. I have promised to give Peredur Owen Griffiths a minute of my time.

What is a community? Are the towns and villages where we live just places where we happen to have houses, or are there corners of congregation there still—spaces and sites that belong to us all? In the Valleys, we have a proud history of such buildings: the miners’ halls, libraries, community centres—places built to feed our minds and nourish our souls. So many of them were paid for from miners' wages—the funds collected from the wage packets of men who spent their days digging in the darkness. They wanted to ensure their children had something better to live for—places of light and hope and splendour. Yes, splendour. Because what a bounty was bought by their benevolence. The miners’ welfare building in Ystrad Mynach alone housed a library, reading rooms, a snooker room, a community hall for public meetings, whilst in Caerphilly a general hospital was constructed with contributions from miners too—a place for miners to be taken for surgery when accidents befell them. A place to ensure they would not have to be carried over the mountain to Cardiff to get life-saving treatment.

In Blackwood, 100 years ago, a miners' institute was opened for concerts and galas, to which was later added a library, auditorium, dancefloor and rooms for local societies. For a century, that building has stood as a cornerstone of the community, until the wickedness of austerity, the baseness of budget cuts, came close to closing its doors. Blackwood Miners’ Institute was saved by the dedication of local campaigners and outpouring of support from a community long used to having things taken away. Thank heavens its future now looks more secure.

But alas, the same cannot be said for Llancaiach Fawr, a gem of the Rhymney valley that, since the year's beginning, has remained closed, its heavy doors shut against the towns and villages that used to send their children there for school trips, whose local societies congregated in its cafe for meetings or visited its barn for fairs and concerts. Until such time as a private buyer is found, the stories held in its walls will stay silent. Indeed, I wonder whether the non-commercial side of the business, the manor house where children went back in time, will ever reopen again.

And that is not the only community asset at risk of closure. In Merthyr, the iconic Redhouse building and arts centre closed its doors last year. Questions were raised over the future of the Aberfan community centre, a place paid for by funds sent to grieving families after the disaster that killed their children. If we do not protect these sites that have served our communities in the darkest hours of our history, we could be at risk of forgetting the lessons of that history.

Community centres the Valleys over face closure or reduced hours, the swimming pools where so many of us learned that life skill being a special casualty of rising energy costs. And in this time of cuts to local authority budgets, libraries seem considered an easy target. In Caerphilly, the council is proposing to close 10 libraries across the borough, including in Nelson, Llanbradach, Bedwas, Deri and Pengam. Residents who rely on their services have expressed anger and sadness, but I fear it will be to no avail.

What a thing it is to close a library. It is much meaner an act than merely closing the doors to a building. Because a library is more than brickwork and pipes. Within its walls are mansions of memory, immeasurable worlds to which we can be transported. And they are hubs, too, for the weary and lonely; places to meet, stay warm, to learn and wonder. That was the dream bought for us by our grandparents. Places of comfort and knowledge and friendship. And that is the legacy so at risk of being lost.

In the Valleys, we are rightly proud of that son of Tredegar, Nye Bevan, and his masterwork, the national health service. But Bevan's favourite role came earlier in his career. He said the job that gave him the most joy was the role he played as buyer for the miners' libraries, the years he spent as chairman of the book selection committee. His legacy to our Valleys was thus not only found in hospital wards, but in the hordes of children and adults learning, taking delight in the books bought for them.

I wonder what he would say if he could visit our streets today. So many shuttered windows, majestic buildings, now either demolished, let out for commercial rent, or being left vacant as spectres to haunt and mock our present. The miners' halls and institutes fighting for survival, empty chapels, run-down theatres; the memories they evoke of a time when community was an experience we shared.

It's the empty buildings that are most ruinous. In the years and centuries that followed the departure of the Romans from these shores, how people must have felt when they saw the imposing structures that had been left behind; memories of a time much crueller, but a time when places of majesty had been built—monuments, amphitheatres. 

In the twelfth century, Geraldus Cambrensis travelled through Caerleon and we can tell from his writings that the roofs of the Roman baths were there still. He spoke of the remains of temples and immense palaces, which once rivalled the magnificence of ancient Rome. How it must have felt to look at those structures and realise that their time had faded, that no such building would be built again. Sic transit gloria mundi. How the glory of the earth vanishes.

And yet—. And yet—we would not go back to the time of coal mining, a time of bitterness, exploitation, injury and death. But something of value was forged in those cruel years, a sense of defiance and splendour—I come back to that word. A greatness we demanded for our people, a grandeur we projected to the world and to God. Places of congregation where our communities came together. Places where we could learn and find joy and beauty. Those places deserve to be more than remembered. They deserve to be centres of community again.

We need legislation to protect these assets, ways to make it easier to bring them back into public ownership. Indeed, we need legislation that would ensure  community ownership rights. That is what Cwmpas is campaigning for. And yes, a commission has been established on community assets, but there is an urgent need here. We are already lagging behind compared to Scotland and England,  and if we lose more community assets while waiting for the legislation to come before us, our communities will all lose out.

Now, there are examples of places where assets have been saved in these communities. In Caerphilly, the miners' hospital that I mentioned earlier is now a centre for the community, with a coffee shop and a climate change garden, and it is a hub for yoga lessons, sewing classes, groups such as Men's Sheds, and activities such as computer skills, arts and crafts—all kinds of things under one roof. All over the valley, old chapels that have been closed have now been turned into community centres, such as Nazareth in Abertridwr and Beulah in Rhymney.  These are all encouraging examples of new life in the old stones, and they must be celebrated.

But we need to make it easier for groups and volunteers to do these things. We need specialist support, access to finance and community empowerment. These are also centres for the Welsh language in so many communities—after all, they would help the Government achieve more than one target or priority.

These assets are spectacular places. It's high time that we celebrated and appreciated them before they become mere monuments to a lost world, and values and people who have long since left our world.

Thank you very much, Delyth, for this short debate. 

It's a subject that's very close to my heart and I've supported groups that have sought to hold on to such cherished community assets, but have had the odds stacked against them. The private market usually has much deeper pockets than resident co-operatives. It's a big anomaly that people in Wales don't enjoy the same rights as counterparts in Scotland and England when it comes to the right to buy those community assets. No adequate explanation has ever been given for this. It's led to the Institute of Welsh Affairs producing a report in 2022 that found Welsh communities to be the least empowered in Britain. Successive Labour Governments have dropped the ball on this. In the meantime, how many of our community assets have we lost? How many will we continue to lose until this anomaly is corrected? How many of our communities will be deprived of the opportunities that we all have had? Those groups I've supported would have found it much easier to keep community assets for community use with such protections in place. I urge the Government to act swiftly on this, to protect our community assets and to give our communities hope.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government to reply to the debate. Jayne Bryant.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to start first by thanking Delyth Jewell for bringing this important debate forward today, and to Peredur Owen Griffiths for contributing.

I think we can all agree today that protecting community assets is of paramount importance to people across Wales. As the Minister responsible for community assets, I know how valuable these spaces can be in bringing people together and championing local identities, and not just remembering the history. That's why the Welsh Government is fully committed to safeguarding our community assets, which in turn supports local activities, heritage and culture. They're spaces where we share experience, support each other and build stronger, more resilient communities.

To echo the Idris Davies poem, and the question posed by the brown bells of Merthyr, there is hope for the future. Community assets underpin many of the priorities of the First Minister, in particular ensuring opportunities for every family. And as Delyth said, often these are hubs for our communities, places that offer friendship, essential support, services and a sense of connection and meaning. Such spaces offer opportunity for us to consider how we relate to one another and to our communities. I know how important they are for people across the Valleys and beyond.

The Welsh Government is proud to support community-led projects through various funding programmes, including the community facilities programme, and the community asset loan fund. These programmes have provided vital assistance, financial assistance, to help communities purchase or improve essential local facilities, such as buildings and green spaces. These programmes are designed to empower communities, providing them with the financial resources necessary to maintain and enhance their community assets.

Our community facilities programme has provided over £63 million in capital grants to around 450 projects across Wales since 2015. Each of these projects represents a well-used and much-needed community facility. They include all types of assets, including sporting venues, community centres and facilities run by faith groups, churches, chapels and mosques. Not all of these assets are community owned, but they are all run by the community, for the community. The community facilities programme has funded small projects like the repair of the Hirwaun Men's Shed, and the installation of solar panels at the Port Talbot Gas Welfare Club. Larger projects include the refurbishment of the Ponthir and district sports club in Torfaen, and the creation of a Welsh-Jewish cultural centre in the heart of Merthyr Tydfil.

Our Transforming Towns programme has also supported a range of community projects across Wales. One notable example is the Trinity Chapel in Abertillery, which I'm very much looking forward to visiting in the coming weeks. This project has brought a long-term vacant town-centre building back into use, to provide a flagship library service, as well as adult education and training, which includes a digital learning space and lettable space for community-focused activities. Because these are more than just spaces for learning. These are spaces that allow communities to come together, and that's why supporting them is so important.

One way in which we can do this is through the community asset commission, which was established in March last year, and is a partnership between Welsh Government and Ystadau Cymru. The commission consists of a task and finish group, made up of 18 members, representing key stakeholder groups. These groups include the Plunkett Foundation, One Voice Wales, the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, the Development Trusts Association Wales and the Barcud housing association. The primary focus of the commission is buildings, land and natural assets. These include local facilities that bring people together and provide essential resources, assets such as libraries, museums, art centres, green spaces and leisure centres. We are considering assets in the public, private and voluntary sectors, as well as those under community ownership. The commission aims to understand the challenges that facilities may face, explore options for ownership and management, and develop proposals to advance the community asset agenda.

I'm aware of the proposals in England to consult on the community right to buy, and my team is fully engaged with UK Government officials on this matter. Any future decision will be shaped by the recommendations of our own community asset commission, and we will be reflective of the needs of the communities in Wales. Part of the commission's remit is to review the legislative landscape and how well it has worked and whether it has genuinely empowered communities.

One of the key tools that we have developed to support this work is the community asset transfer best practice guide, published by Ystadau Cymru. This guide provides valuable insight and practical advice for communities to look to take ownership of local assets. It's scheduled for review in 2025, ensuring that it remains relevant and up to date, in line with the recommendations from the community asset commission. Cardiff University are conducting independent academic research and are hosting a series of stakeholder workshops that started in September to understand first-hand experiences of community groups across Wales. I'm confident that our approach will provide invaluable evidence-based insights that will shape the way forward.

The commission's terms of reference are published on the Ystadau Cymru's website, allowing anyone interested to understand the scope and objectives of our efforts. We believe that open communication and collaboration with all stakeholders are essential to the success of our initiatives. It's expected that recommendations made by the commission's task and finish group will be presented by autumn 2025. Community facilities like this offer so much more than an inviting space for local people; they offer local jobs and volunteering opportunities, and enhanced access to learning. They cater for families, offering childcare, parent and toddler groups, youth clubs, and Welsh lessons. Their potential to bring people together and foster community cohesion is invaluable. Whether through providing electric charging points or serving as bases for community transport projects, community assets are integral to connecting and strengthening our communities. We have made a firm commitment to supporting community-led developments and have provided a framework that includes advice, guidance and financial support.

Community assets serve as a valuable purpose for people across Wales. Whether we're talking about libraries, education facilities, cultural centres, sports clubs or green spaces, these are hubs for our community that foster a sense of belonging and pride, and I look forward to seeing the recommendations of the community asset commission later this year. Diolch yn fawr.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary, and thank you, Delyth. That brings today's proceedings to a close.