National Assembly for Wales

Good afternoon, and welcome, all, to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda today is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government. The first question is from Llyr Gruffydd.

In 2025-26, local authorities will receive £6.1 billion from the Welsh Government in core revenue funding and non-domestic rates to spend on delivering key services. This equates to an increase of an average of 4.3 per cent or £253 million on a like-for-like basis compared to the current year.

Councils, of course, are facing an increase in costs because of the increase in national insurance contributions. Now, I know that, in my region, somewhere like Wrexham is facing an increase of £5 million, and Flintshire over £4 million. And these councils will now have to set their budgets without knowing how much support they will receive from the Welsh Government to meet that additional cost. Now, that in itself creates great uncertainty for councils the length and breadth of Wales. But in addition to that, councils and other public bodies do contract many of their services from external companies and enterprises, and these too will face an increase in their national insurance contributions and are likely to pass that additional cost on to these councils. So, can I ask you what steps the Government is taking to ensure that this increase in national insurance contributions won't have a negative impact, directly on local authorities, but also on the services that they provide through third parties, because, at the end of the day, it's local residents who will suffer if these services have to be cut?

Diolch, Llyr. Thank you for that question. I took into account the pressures that local authorities were reporting in my budget decisions. I've been around and spoken to local authority leaders across Wales, and they are still, I understand, having to make difficult decisions. We have said this is a good budget. We do recognise that 14 years of constrained funding can't be turned around just in one budget; it will take time for the public finances to recover. You do raise an important point around the pressures that local authorities face, and the issue around national insurance. The UK Government has confirmed it will provide funding to public sector employees to cover the increased costs of employer national insurance contributions. And it's confirmed that the Welsh Government will be provided with our share of the funding to support the cost to the devolved public sector. That funding will be over and above the money that came to Wales on 30 October in the UK budget. We're continuing to work with HM Treasury to clarify the details and the level of support that will be provided, and you'd expect us to do no less.

On the issue of the third sector—and you pointed out—we have a proposed £21 million uplift in our housing support grant funding for 2025-26. That is to help support commissioners to pay the sector the real living wage, and to help build capacity in the system, to respond to that increased demand. Now, none of that proposed £21 million uplift to funding for the HSG is intended for increased national insurance contributions, obviously, because national insurance is not devolved. But, obviously, we're working collaboratively with HM Treasury to clarify levels of additional support to inform the budget planning process. But I do recognise that third sector organisations, commissioned by the public sector, such as those through the HSG, are concerned about the impact of the changes, and, as I said, those discussions will continue.

I'm grateful to Llyr Gruffydd for raising this important point today. As Llyr rightly pointed out, the impact of the national insurance increase on councils up and down Wales is significant. And whilst you pointed out, Cabinet Secretary, the additional funding that may come down the track to support directly employed employees, you know full well, in particular areas like social care, that councils commission those services out either to the third sector or the independent sector. I'm not hearing, I don't think, strong enough words from you or the Welsh Government in this place, and we haven't heard those strong enough words for months on this issue. We know that social care services are on the brink, and they need that funding to support that national insurance increase sooner rather than later, and it needs to be guaranteed as well. So, will you commit today, Cabinet Secretary, to going back to your counterparts in the UK Government and demanding that funding comes through to support that policy change that's happened at the UK level so that our social care services can continue to deliver those vital services that people up and down Wales need?

Diolch, Sam, and, as I said, I do understand the points that you're raising. I've been very clear about the employer national insurance contributions in terms of the contracted services, and I've also said that discussions are ongoing. I, my Cabinet colleagues and, I'm sure, the third sector organisations make those points clearly. But we're having those discussions. We have put in—. For things that we’re able to do, which is why we've put money into the housing support grant, and why I was pleased to put that money into the housing support grant—. As I say, it's not intended for the increased national insurance contributions, because, obviously, that is not devolved. So, we'll continue working with colleagues in Westminster on this, and we'll continue to keep Members in touch with discussions on that.

Cabinet Secretary, I welcome the approach that the Welsh Government is taking in rightly prioritising public services, and I recognise that this year’s draft budget is that step towards a brighter future, but that it’ll take time to undo the damage done by austerity. However, you’ll be aware that I and others in my constituency are concerned that Flintshire County Council are again in the lower end of the aggregate external finance table. And I really want to pay tribute to the work that has been done over the years to balance the books, and on the back of very difficult decisions and at the same time maintaining and developing things like in-house adult social care provision.

So, today, Cabinet Secretary, I would like to, again, urge the Welsh Government to build on the settlement, as set out in the draft budget, and provide a funding floor so that those local authorities, like my own in Flintshire, are best supported to enable the ongoing provision of services that our people and places very much depend upon. In doing so, can I also ask how the Welsh Government can perhaps further consider how grant funding can potentially better help bridge some of the financial gaps that authorities, such as Flintshire County Council, are facing? Diolch.

Diolch, Hannah. Thank you. Absolutely, and I’ve spoken to the leader of Flintshire, as I have with all local authority leaders over the last few months, and you rightly say that there have been some really difficult decisions that all local authorities have had to make over a number of years now. And with the increased investment that we’re putting in for next year, that doesn’t take away what’s happened over the last 14 years. So, I think this is really the start, and I do very much hear what you and other colleagues say around those who are finding themselves with their authorities at the lower end of the table with the funding formula.

Just to say that, every year, a funding floor is looked at and thought about, but, given the range of increases next year, I just want to say again that I and the Government are very open to considering providing additional floor funding at final budget. So, that is also something that I just want to be clear with the Senedd on.

Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary.

Thank you very much to Llyr also for raising this issue, and also to Sam.

I’m following on the theme here around local authorities, particularly around their social care budgets and particularly about the services that they commission from outside. The Welsh Local Government Association is estimating that local authorities here in Wales will have a £106 million funding gap, and, on top of that, they are required to consider how the national insurance increase will impact their services. We raise this continuously and, for those of us on the opposition, it’s really hard to understand why a Labour Government in Wales isn’t able to influence a Labour Government in London. You are our voice with that Labour Government and with the Prime Minister, and I would like a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer, please: will you take back from this Senedd that we want the national insurance increase scrapped? That’s a ‘yes’ or a ‘no’. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch, Jane. Thank you for the question. I think what I would say to you, and as I’ve said to colleagues, is that my Cabinet colleague the Cabinet Secretary for finance has those discussions with his colleagues in the Treasury. They’re direct conversations, and at official level as well. And I know that this is an issue raised by the third sector to Members here in the Senedd, to Government members here, but also, where national insurance sits, which is with the UK Government, and those discussions are being had there as well.

We have not yet had confirmation of how much additional funding Wales received to support the additional cost to the devolved public sector employers—which I’ll mention as well—so we’re continuing to work with HM Treasury to clarify the details and the level of support that will be provided. And just to say on that issue, when we know that level of funding, we’ll work with local government through our distribution and finance sub-group, just to determine how to distribute that amount fairly as well.

Diolch, Heledd. I'm committed to ensuring everyone in Wales has access to a safe and secure home. Legislation and Welsh Government guidance outlines how local authorities and registered social landlords should co-ordinate activity to ensure allocations of social housing balance the needs of communities and individual households.

Thank you for that response. Unfortunately, that doesn’t seem to be the case in terms of how it’s applied, because I’ve been helping constituents who live at Llys Tylcha Fawr in Tonyrefail, who’ve been affected by a letting policy that opens up the flats to any residents regardless of background. Indeed, there are several such housing developments in Tonyrefail that were initially developed specifically for elderly residents but now house residents with drug misuse problems, resulting in an increase in anti-social behaviour. One resident of Llys Tylcha Fawr has had a nervous breakdown and had to be moved, and others have moved to private rental properties to escape the situation there. Nobody elderly wants to live there anymore. So, the local councillor has secured a sensitive let policy to ensure that no more people with a history of anti-social behaviour are allowed to move there, but this is having to be looked at annually, and vulnerable residents want to live without fear and feel safe and secure for the future, permanently, not just year by year. So, can I ask the Cabinet Secretary, can you commit to revisiting that guidance, and seeing how we ensure that councils do filter out people with a history of drug misuse or anti-social behaviour in properties that were initially supposed to be for elderly residents? They deserve to be able to live in peace in their homes.

Diolch, Heledd, and I’m really sorry to hear about the example that you’ve given, and the example of your constituent as well. It must be horrendous to live with anti-social behaviour on that level day in, day out, so I do have huge sympathies with that and with your constituents.

Unfortunately, as you know, incidents of anti-social behaviour occur in a range of communities, and are not particular to a particular type of tenure for example. Local authorities set out how they allocate homes in published allocations frameworks, in line with their relevant legislation code of guidance. Local authorities must ensure that the accommodation that they allocate is suitable to the needs of the household, taking into account the needs of the local community when doing so. The Welsh Government is committed to the development of social housing as part of building mixed tenures and balanced communities. But, as I say, there are, certainly, avenues where people facing anti-social behaviour, and I’d encourage the local authority to explore them as well for residents, but I am very sympathetic to the issue of your constituents.

Party spokespeople's questions now. The Conservative spokesperson, Laura Anne Jones. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, prynhawn da. Do you think that it’s acceptable that, with inflation at 2.5 per cent, above inflation council tax rises have been suggested across Wales? In Caerphilly, we have a 7.9 per cent rise being suggested, in Ynys Môn 9.5 per cent, in Carmarthenshire almost 10 per cent. Monmouthshire council, which has received the smallest uplift of any Welsh council, has a 7.8 per cent rise. Plans to increase council tax bills in Newport have come under fire from critics, and residents say they can ill afford to pay more for reduced services. The reality is that that will be an extra £100 a year on a standard band D property, which residents call ill afford, as I’m sure you’ll understand. These council tax rises are coming at the worst possible time, when people are still grappling with the cost-of-living crisis, when homelessness is out of control in places like Newport and winter fuel payments are being cut. What is the Welsh Government doing to stand on the side of hard-pressed taxpayers in Wales who are facing eye-watering tax rises whilst council fat cats rake in the cash?

Diolch, Laura. As you know, councils will be considering a range of council tax and spending options in their budget discussions and consultations. It’s obviously right, as democratically elected bodies, that they do that. I don’t think it’s appropriate for Welsh Government to set arbitrary levels. As I’ve said in response to questions earlier, councils are having to set and make really tough decisions this year, but we’re a bit further ahead than we would have been if we’d had the UK Tory Government that we did only a year ago in power. So, while one budget can’t change everything, I think that 14 years of austerity has really hit.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that answer, but it’s a bit rich, because it affects us all, doesn’t it? Vital services are at risk. Preventative services will be cut. These are the sort of preventative measures that we all praise on this floor and wish to see enacted, yet these are exactly the preventative measures that are being proposed across Wales to be cut. Let’s talk about in our own region, Cabinet Secretary, where three well-loved leisure centres in Caerphilly, funding to rural youth clubs—a proposed cut of £40,000—in Monmouthshire, and even libraries in your own city of Newport are proposed to be cut by Labour councils. All preventative tools. If the preventative agenda is the true aim of this Welsh Government, don’t you agree, Cabinet Secretary, that without ensuring money gets to the delivery end of policy making, then all that Government is doing here is merely talking hot air?

Well, I think it’s a bit rich from the party opposite, actually. Because under a UK Labour Government our overall settlement for 2025-26 is more than £1 billion higher than it would have been under the previous Conservative Government. So, I think that’s something that we need to be aware of. As I said, authorities are going to be making difficult decisions. I do understand that. As I said, one budget isn’t going to change 14 years of what they faced. It’s been very difficult. I do appreciate that. That’s for the local authority cabinet members, councillors and officers who have to carry out these decisions. I know that, across Wales, those leaders, elected members and officers will strive to find ways to make best use of those resources to make a difference to their communities. I just want to say also, to jointly support households, we maintain full entitlement to support through our council tax reduction scheme. We provide £244 million through the settlement in recognition of that for those really vulnerable people.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Let’s talk about fairness, let’s talk about something that’s in your direct control: the funding formula. It’s outrageously unfair and punishes rural parts of Wales for being, well, rural. Not only that—thanks to councils being hit by eye-watering national insurance contributions to the tune of millions, which has already been discussed—Monmouthshire council in my own region faces a £3.5 million extra cost to pay their national insurance contributions, on top of everything else. If you refuse today to stand up for residents in Wales, wouldn’t you agree with me that we need an independent review of this unfair funding formula in Wales? I know it’s like turkeys voting for Christmas, but sometimes we have to do what is right. Also, can you ensure and reassure councils that NI costs will be fully covered?

Diolch, Laura. As I said again in response to a question from Hannah Blythyn, this year we do understand that there is a range of increases within the funding formula. We are, as a Government, very open to considering providing additional floor funding at the final budget, so that is something that we are looking at. We’re committed to continuing to use and maintain a fair and transparent funding formula for the local government settlement, which is agreed with local government. The funding formula is kept under review annually by the distribution sub-group. Work that is under way includes updating the sparsity and that deprivation data and how it's used in the formula. We've got relevant statistical techniques, such as regression and multilevel modelling, which were used to determine the indicators with the biggest relationship to cost when the formula was established. This is now being reviewed, using the same techniques to see if they're still the strongest relationships.

So, again, over three quarters of the funding distributed through the local government settlement funding formula relies on data that is annually updated. But, as I say, I do recognise that there are larger distributions this year, it's a range of increases, so, as I said, we are open to considering providing an additional floor funding at our final budget.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to begin by thanking all local authority staff across Wales—our carers, our road repair crews, our bin collectors, the back-office staff and many, many others. These workers are under growing pressure, delivering essential services despite reduced funding and limited resources. On behalf of Plaid Cymru, I thank them all for their dedication and hard work. Last week we learned that the Welsh Government has no understanding of how much funding Wales will eventually receive to cover the £109 million cost to Labour's national insurance tax increases in the public sector. With local authorities having to begin budget planning, this uncertainty is unsustainable. I hear that conversations are ongoing, but budgets are being set now. Does this actually mean that the decision by the Treasury has caught you all on the hop of the unintended consequences of not thinking things through? So, Cabinet Secretary, when will we know how much funding you will receive from the UK Government to cover the costs of these tax increases?

Diolch, Peredur. Thank you for that question. I would like to start by agreeing with you on all the work that local authorities' staff do up and down the country, day in, day out. It is quite incredible the amount of services that they deliver on our behalf, and I'd like put on record my thanks to them as well.

Again, just to say in terms of the national insurance issue, which I know all Members are concerned about, our initial estimate of the additional national insurance costs to devolved public sector employers in Wales for directly employed staff is £253 million. Of this, £33 million relates to teachers, £77 million to other local government staff. On that front, we have not yet had confirmation of how much additional funding Wales will receive to support the additional cost to devolved public sector employers. As I said, we are continuing to work closely with HM Treasury to clarify the details and the level of support that will be provided.

Again, when we know the level of funding, we'll work with local government through our distribution and finance sub-groups to determine how best to distribute this fairly, because I'm aware that authorities have a different proportion of directly employed staff and commissioned services or contracted-out services. So, that will be done with local government.

We do recognise that organisations and businesses commissioned by the public sector to provide services and third sector organisations are concerned about the impact of the changes to the employer national insurance contributions. The UK Government analysis shows that more than half of employers with NI contribution liabilities will either see no change or gain overall in 2025. But the third sector in Wales provides crucial services to our communities and people in most need of support. In the draft budget, we have committed to a three-year funding agreement for the third sector to support Wales, comprising of £25.8 million.

Thank you for that reply.

On that question—Jane Dodds asked the question earlier of whether you would rather see the NI increase scrapped. I didn't hear a 'yes' or 'no' answer, but you might want to address that as well. While I'm sure you hope the full cost of Welsh local authorities will be covered, my colleagues in local government are less optimistic. Last month the finance Cabinet Secretary noted that national insurance reimbursements for the public sector will be distributed through the Barnett formula. He warned this would be fundamentally unfair, with Welsh local authorities receiving a lower percentage of reimbursement than their English counterparts. The nature of each council, as you just explained to us, when it comes to in-house services and those contracted out, is different. A promise had been made that the national insurance contributions for public sector workers would be fully funded by the Treasury. So, how are you going to allocate the Barnett consequentials when they eventually get here? Are you confident that you will have enough funds in the Welsh budget to make up the difference between the reality and the formula allocation, when it comes to fully funding the consequences of the Chancellor's decision?

Diolch, Peredur. As I say, this is an issue that is ongoing with my Cabinet colleagues, and the Cabinet Secretary for finance is leading on those discussions with his counterparts in Westminster, as you'd expect. Obviously, I very much understand that this is what local authorities are concerned about, as is the third sector. I think we have to be clear that when we have those discussions and when we're able to provide something further, we will share that with local authorities and the Senedd as well.

Diolch. That would be welcome. And if you could write to us immediately when you know that, then that would be excellent to find out exactly what the situation is.

You described this budget as a good budget earlier; the First Minister has boasted the claim that the UK Government has provided the best ever funding settlement for Wales. Our local governments are, nevertheless, facing a very difficult settlement, with an approximate £0.5 billion shortfall in funding. While Labour in Westminster boasts that they are not raising taxes on working people, Labour in Wales fails to properly fund local services. What this does is effectively shift where the tax is being raised and the burden being put on working people, through one of the most regressive taxes, which is council tax. Councils have asked you for a substantial funding floor, but once again, the Welsh Government has left them in the dark about its level and its timing, but you are open to a floor, as you explained earlier, in the final budget.

We know the pressure on local government budgets is approximately 7 per cent, coupled with an average settlement of 4.3 per cent, with some getting as little as 2.8 per cent—well short of what's needed. As councils set their budgets and balance between what they get from the Welsh Government with how much they need to fund essential services and, effectively, how much they then need to raise in council tax to balance the books, it's a real live issue across the country, and they are now trying to balance their books in the dark. So, how much have you asked the Cabinet Secretary for finance to find from other departments and reserves to fund a floor, and at what level will you set it and when will you know?

Diolch, Peredur. As I said, I do understand that local authorities are having to make difficult decisions as they go through their budget process as well. But, again, I think it's really important to remind everybody that, under a UK Labour Government, our overall settlement for 2025-26 is more than £1 billion higher than it would’ve been under the previous Conservative Government. And this is testament to the Labour Government in Westminster's commitment to delivering on the priorities in Wales and working with us here. And that's exactly what we're focused on. I know how important local authorities are in delivering our priorities. That's why I've increased the core revenue funding and non-domestic rates for local authorities.

As I've said, those decisions that local authorities have to make are very real, but, again, we have our council tax reduction scheme, we've provided £244 million through our settlement to recognise that. I do understand that local authorities are going to make sure that they do the best for their communities, as they always try hard to do. We know that they've been under pressure for many years, and I know, particularly with social care pressures and pressures within education in particular, with additional learning needs, that that has been very much at the forefront of their minds. As I said, we have had to manage and do what we can here in Wales. I think we've done well to listen to local government. We've got that extra money going in, but, as I said, after 14 years of Tory austerity, one budget isn't going to be able to change all of that.

Diolch, Mark. Welsh Government is undertaking long-term transformation, including legislative reform, to address the challenges associated with homelessness. Our immediate focus is on homelessness prevention and delivery of more homes, with the draft budget providing an additional £21 million for the housing support grant and £81 million for social housing in support of this.

Thank you. Well, in 88 per cent of their cases, Shelter Cymru managed to prevent homelessness, and, in 59 per cent, to keep individuals and families in their original home. However, they're concerned by the detail in the homelessness support and prevention budget line in the Welsh Government draft budget you referred to. They provide significant advice and support in Wales via the homelessness prevention grant, which is contained within the same overall budget line as the housing support grant, HSG, and state that the indications are that non-HSG grants will face real-terms cuts.

A cash-flat grant would mean reduced support for homelessness prevention for two consecutive years, which, combined with the cost of meeting the national insurance rise, would require an overall cost-saving equivalent to two full-time advisers and a reduced advice capacity of around 360 households. Although the Welsh Government states that it is committed to ending homelessness, it's, therefore, proposing to reduce its support for preventative services. How do you, therefore, respond to their call for the Welsh Government to increase all grants within the homelessness support and prevention budget line? 

Diolch, Mark, and thank you for the question. We don't underestimate the scale of the challenge. The number of people experiencing homelessness does remain worryingly high. We have protected and increased funding for homelessness support and prevention in 2025-26, which now stands at over £240 million; that is a deliberate choice. The £240 million includes a £21 million increase to the HSG, which now stands at £204.3 million, which is an increase of 11.45 per cent.

The funding uplift is intended to assist commissioners in supporting providers to deliver on the Welsh Government's broader commitment to fair work and the real living wage and to respond to the increased demand for services and those complexities of need. The £21 million increase to the HSG does demonstrate our commitment to preventative services and really does lay strong foundations for our forthcoming legislative reform. So, I think there's a lot that we're doing here. Obviously, we're having to balance as much as we can, but we do not underestimate the challenge. I think we're really finding that local authorities are facing that as well, so I do understand the complexity of the budget, but very much we're doing what we can, putting prevention first here and supporting preventative services.

Diolch, Mick. Help to Buy—Wales has supported more than 14,000 households to purchase a home since its launch in January 2014. In December, I announced an 18-month extension of the scheme, allocating £57 million in 2025-26.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that answer. Can I very much welcome the extension by 18 months? This is a very important initiative in respect of, particularly, young people who want to get onto the housing ladder. As I understand it, this is a scheme that is applicable in Wales; I understand that it is probably not applicable in England. Can you perhaps explain exactly how this is going to be promoted so that people are aware of it, and how they'll be assisted in all of the other things that go together with the Help to Buy scheme, because it does require obtaining mortgages and other financial advice to obtain, I think, the 20 per cent equity that Welsh Government would put up to enable this to happen?

Diolch, Mick, and thank you for welcoming this scheme. I recently made the decision to extend our Help to Buy scheme here in Wales. It is, indeed—. The previous UK Government ended the Help to Buy scheme in England in March 2023. We're continuing the Welsh Government's support for thousands of people to realise their dreams of home ownership, somewhere they can start to build their future, the future they want to see here in Wales. And that's why I'm really proud that we've been able to support over 11,000 first-time buyers to purchase a home here in Wales. Just to say as well that the proportion of first-time buyers has increased in recent years as well. It was 77 per cent of purchasers that were first-time buyers. It's gone up: 84 per cent of purchasers since the start of April 2022 have been first-time buyers. I think that is testament to the scheme. 

Help to Buy—Wales has already got a promotion tool. Many people know about it already. But it's important that we build on that and make sure that we all, here in the Chamber as well, spread the word about the Help to Buy scheme, which has been extended now, and I'm pleased to have done that.

Diolch, Cefin. The Warm Homes programme considers the needs of home owners living in both rural and urban areas. Householders who meet the eligibility criteria will receive a whole-house assessment, and will receive a bespoke range of measures suitable for their individual property.

Well, Cabinet Secretary, last week, in responding to your statement on the Warm Homes programme, my colleague Siân Gwenllian raised a number of concerns, which I share, including a lack of clarity on its policy objectives, and also issues around evaluation and monitoring. My specific question today is about the impact of the scheme in rural Wales, where we know that fuel poverty is a particular issue.

In its 2022 report on fuel poverty and the Warm Homes programme, the Equality and Social Justice Committee recommended that the Government create an energy efficiency scheme targeted specifically at reducing rural fuel poverty—a recommendation that the Government accepted. However, upon reading the integrated impact assessment, I can't find any evidence that a tailored rural-proofing exercise was undertaken on this programme. So, can you confirm, therefore, whether a rural impact assessment was conducted on the design of the Warm Homes scheme, and, if not, why not? And do you agree with me that it is absolutely essential that programmes like the Warm Homes scheme make relevant adjustments for the specific needs of rural communities? 

Diolch, Cefin. We are investing more than £30 million this year in the new Warm Homes Nest scheme to reduce the number of low-income households living in cold, damp homes, including those in rural areas. Absolutely, we understand rural households are more likely to be in fuel poverty than urban households. The programme is designed to have a positive impact on the lives of rural people by delivering energy efficiency upgrades to households at risk of fuel poverty. For people living in geographic isolation, who may find it harder to access help in person, Warm Homes offers advice services and information online and over the phone, as a minimum, so as not to exclude any rural households. Our free advice service, which is available to all householders across Wales, does play an important part in understanding each household's individual circumstances, and supporting them to access the most appropriate scheme for their needs. Rural properties are more likely to be off grid and reliant on more expensive forms of heating. Our Warm Homes programme can support them to reduce their bills through a range of measures, including installation of air-source heat pumps. But perhaps you'd like to write to me on that particular point, so that I can address that specifically.

Cabinet Secretary, fuel poverty is much higher in rural parts of Wales than in densely populated urban areas. Not only do rural households pay more for fuel due to being off grid, as you pointed out, their homes are harder to decarbonise. Also, many rural homes are reliant upon wood burners for heating, and even cooking. Cabinet Secretary, how are you adapting the Welsh Government's Warm Homes programme and decarbonisation efforts to ensure that those living in rural areas are not disadvantaged, and will your programme allow for cleaner, more efficient wood burners to be installed?

Thank you, Altaf. As I said, we very much understand that rural households are more likely to be in fuel poverty than urban households. Low-carbon technologies will be prioritised when it makes sense to do so. Some rural off-grid householders have requested a new oil boiler, which is outside the scope of the scheme, but officials are currently exploring options with our contractors to be able to provide further support to off-grid customers where it's not possible to install low-carbon technology in off-grid properties. But our independent advice service can advise householders that they may be eligible for support through other schemes, such as the energy company obligation. I think our Warm Homes Nest scheme—I would recommend everybody encouraging constituents to take up that offer of the free impartial advice. I think the impartial advice is important within this as well. So, perhaps, if your constituents would like to contact that, I think that would be really helpful.

Diolch, Gareth. In 2025-26, north Wales local authorities will receive £1.3 billion from the Welsh Government in core revenue funding and non-domestic rates to spend on delivering key services, an increase of £48 million compared to the prior year on a like-for-like basis.

The local government settlement announced in the draft budget prioritised the Labour Party's cash-reserve-rich heartlands in south Wales and the Valleys, thus ignoring the needs of other councils such as Flintshire, which has only seen a 3.3 per cent change. Denbighshire County Council is now raising council tax for residents in my constituency, with the planned rise set to be higher than the Welsh average of 4.3 per cent. This follows a higher than average council tax rise last year, and my constituents are sick of their council tax going up and up and up and their services going down and down and down. Library opening times cut, public toilet services cut, grass verges overgrown, the bin roll-out in the last 12 months chaotic. We've been let down by Denbighshire council, with the lowest care-home fees putting pressure on the most vulnerable, and the SeaQuarium centre in Rhyl demolished with nothing to replace it in terms of tourism. This is a typical Labour administration: tax more, get less. So, what work is the Cabinet Secretary doing to ensure fairer funding for local authorities so that the burden isn't placed on our residents and the most vulnerable, such as those in our care and our elderly? Thank you.

Again, I think I'd just like to remind the Member opposite that, if your Government had been in power, we would have received £1 billion less than we have this time, with a Labour Government in power.

The Member mentions reserves and council tax, and, just to say again, I very much understand the difficult decisions that local authorities are having to make at the moment. After 14 years of Tory austerity, one budget isn't going to be able to change everything over those years. In terms of the level of reserves, the level of local authority reserves are obviously a matter for local elected members, and they'll also reflect longer term plans, as well as managing shorter term pressures. Obviously, it's good practice to review earmarked reserves on a regular basis. Full data is not yet available for the 2023-24 financial year, but most authorities are reporting decreases in reserves from March 2023 to March 2024, and this follows a decrease in usable reserves of around £170 million in the previous year. The biggest falls are in school reserves and earmarked reserves.

Local authorities have reported that they're drawing on reserves during this current financial year to respond to the pressure of inflation. Many are also planning to use reserves in the next financial year as part of their medium term financial planning, but there is no link between councils with higher level of settlement increases and the level of usable reserves as per the definition used by Audit Wales, which is general, plus earmarked, plus schools.

Diolch, Peter. The Welsh Local Government Association have estimated a cost of £109 million for directly employed staff. We are continuing to work with HM Treasury to clarify the details and the level of support that will be provided.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I'm conscious that this question has been asked a few times today, but I think that shows the level of concern that we all have, and our councils have as well, because very clearly this was a manifesto commitment broken not to see national insurance rises.

Local councils, as we know, are still extremely concerned because they don't really know what they're going to have. We know there's going to be some support for them and we know their assessed need is around £109 million, as you pointed out, but the reality is that if only £80 million comes down the tracks to cover it, they're going to have to absorb some £20-odd million then and that will come directly off service provision, or it will find its way to council tax payers' pockets. 

And as we've heard earlier, many councils do commission services, as does Wrexham County Borough Council, where, I believe, 80 per cent of their social care is provided by private contractors who will, no doubt, pass the cost on. So, clearly, Cabinet Secretary, the additional costs could end up eroding all of the extra you're hoping to achieve with the budget this year. So, with this in mind, Cabinet Secretary, what assessment have you made of the implications to councils of Labour's national insurance hike?

Diolch, Peter, and as you say, this has come up, understandably, a number of times today. In the short term, I'd expect local authorities to make assumptions on the reasonable level of funding they expect to receive specifically for this. My letter to leaders on the level of the provisional settlement was clear that funding for this would be in addition to the funding set out in the settlement. I believe, therefore, that authorities have a reasonable level of assurance from us to make sensible assumptions.

The figures that we've provided to HM Treasury, and which underpin the figure of £109 million in my letter, came from the data from local government. So, they have a basis on which to make their budget assumptions. Obviously, this is just one factor amongst a range that local authorities must consider in setting their budget, and I know you'll know that very well. Explicitly setting a minimum level of funding could mean that local authorities feel obliged to work on that conservative assumption, when it might not be appropriate. But we are working with local government and we will continue to work with local government through our distribution and finance sub-groups to determine how to distribute that money fairly. Again, as I said, I am aware of the different authorities having different proportions of directly employed staff, commissioned services or services contracted out, but my officials also regularly meet with local authorities' directors of finance and they'll continue to discuss this with them.

And finally, question 8, Luke Fletcher. 

Diolch, Luke. We have considered the evidence received from the Green Paper consultation undertaken in 2023, as well as examining the available evidence from Scotland, all of which indicates that there is not a sufficient evidence base to take forward rent control measures at this time.

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. 

The evidence on rent controls is much more nuanced than is often acknowledged. Many critics, yourself included, have cited the Scottish experience as evidence that they don't work. However, Scotland's rent cap was a nominal freeze that had significant loopholes, such as only applying to in-tenancy rent freezes. Now, of course, this meant that landlords hiked rents between tenancies, which ultimately lead then to faster increases in rents in Scotland, compared to the rest of the UK in the same period, but this is by no means an excuse to say that they don't work. 

I'm concerned that the Welsh Government has placed undue stock in the views of stakeholders within the landlord lobby, in particular, who are obviously going to oppose any impact on their own profits. So, Cabinet Secretary, do you believe that the evidence that Welsh Government has relied upon fully accounts for the nuance required in designing effective rent control policies, and has there been a tendency to dismiss the idea too quickly?

Diolch, Luke. So, the evidence we received did identify that, fundamentally, we do need to obtain better data, and I think that's really important. So, better data on private rents across the whole sector, rather than just looking at the asking prices published, say, by Rightmove and Zoopla. The White Paper consultation does close at the end of this month and, as a Government, we have set out our proposals around rent and rent data. We need to consider the submission made, and it would not be appropriate for me to comment on specific suggestions raised today.

Evidence received, though, to the Green Paper, including from Crisis, the homelessness charity, identified that rent controls could lead to a reduction in the supply of properties, declining standards of maintenance and repair, and an increase in homelessness presentations. But, as I say, we still have our consultation open until 31 January, so there is still time to contribute to that consultation.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

The next item is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education. The first question is from Delyth Jewell.

I have had numerous discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales about learner travel. We will jointly lead a learner travel summit in the spring. This important issue will benefit from our combined efforts, and those of our partners, to ensure learner transport is as effective as possible.

Thank you for that response. As you've mentioned, local authorities are now adapting the distances in their free transport policies that were more generous than the statutory position. This will have a greater impact on areas like the Valleys, where children have to travel greater distances to get to Welsh-medium schools. Very often, they have to travel past a number of English-medium schools before they get to a Welsh-medium school, and this change of policy, therefore, could have a disproportionate impact on families who would prefer to send their children to Welsh-medium schools. They will now be facing an additional barrier of having to pay to go to a Welsh-medium school whilst the English provision, which is geographically closer, would be available free of charge. So, I'd ask how this does not equate to inequality. Because we all talk about the fact that the Welsh language belongs to all of us—and that's a principle that I think is 100 per cent important—but I would ask how that aligns with the situation that is now facing children in the Valleys.

Diolch, Delyth, and can I acknowledge you've been raising long-standing concerns about this? As I said in my initial answer, we are having this joint summit with stakeholders, to look at some of the really thorny issues about this. I'm sure you're also aware that the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales has committed to a debate in Government time on learner travel, and that will take place in the coming months.

I know that you're well aware of the parameters of the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 and the boundaries involved: 2 miles at primary, 3 miles at secondary. Local authorities are responsible for assessing the needs of learners in their areas, and they do have discretionary powers to provide transport according to these needs. That includes the discretion to provide learner transport below the legal mileage thresholds to Welsh-medium education or for post-16 learners, and it's up to a local authority to decide on their discretionary transport provision. Funding for school transport is through the revenue support grant, so local authorities can prioritise their spend according to local need. I do of course recognise the financial pressures faced by local authorities in relation to learner transport, and that's one reason why, in our work on the learner travel Measure, we decided not to reduce the mileage threshold.

I'm sure you're pleased to know that work is nearly completed now on updating the statutory guidance document that accompanies the learner travel Measure, setting out legal duties and best practice for the provision of transport to schools. That work has been done collaboratively with the Association of Transport Co-ordinating Officers, and that consultation will begin in the coming weeks, with the intention of the new guidance being published by September 2025. That will give local authorities sufficient time to update their own policies to come into force by summer 2026, and obviously all the issues that you've raised around Welsh-medium education and inequalities can be fed into that consultation.

Llywydd, I understand that you've given permission for question 2 and question 8 to be grouped today.

The additional learning needs statutory framework secures additional learning provision for ALN learners, underpinned by a whole-school approach to mental health and well-being. The Curriculum for Wales is designed to break down barriers for all learners, giving teachers more flexibility to best meet the individual needs of each child.

Well, thanks for your response. As you know, the Labour UK Government added value added tax to private school fees on 1 January, with no known opposition from Labour Welsh Government. Even if the ability for local authorities to reclaim this VAT for pupils who have a local authority-funded education, health and care plan in England also applies to individual development plans in Wales, and perhaps the Cabinet Secretary can confirm this—I see you're nodding your head—many parents of pupils with additional learning needs, ALN, but without this, will be forced to move their children to state schools or to home school them. These pupils, many of whom are autistic or have other neurodiverse conditions, have been placed in independent schools precisely because they need the specialised curriculum, smaller classes, a diverse range of educational approaches, and tailored environments that many independent schools provide. It's particularly concerning given the already stretched capacity of the state sector to support ALN students, the disruption that can be expected to harm the progress of these children. I've personally witnessed how important this is. So, what, if any, action are you therefore taking to protect those children?

Can I thank Mark Isherwood for that supplementary question? As he's highlighted, the UK Government has made the decision it has on levying VAT on private schools. That's to generate investment in our schools in the state sector. I'm happy to confirm to the Member that local authorities will be able to reclaim VAT for children and young people who have an individual development plan or a statutory plan, and also to say that money has been protected for the Welsh Government as well, for us to reclaim VAT for those post-16 learners that we are responsible for funding in independent schools.

I recognise the point that you're making about learners whose families have opted to take their children to private school for reasons that you have described. That's something that we are mindful of and we are monitoring, and I think it is important that if families are worried that they have a discussion with their local authority about whether they could qualify for an IDP. We're not overly worried at the moment about capacity within the state sector in general terms. We have more than enough places to accommodate children moving from the private sector to the state sector. Obviously, the ALN system is under significant pressure in Wales, and we have recognised that with additional funding and the other work that we're taking forward to implement our ALN reforms. 

I listened very carefully to your response about the resources for children with additional learning needs. One of the concerns that's been raised with me in north Wales is, of course, the waiting times for neurodevelopmental assessments. We know from evidence that was given by the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being to committee that, currently, more than 20,000 children are on a waiting list in Wales; that's set to increase to 61,000 if no action is taken to get to grips with this challenge.

I appreciate that further investment is being made available by the Welsh Government to try and get those waiting lists down, but the current waiting time in north Wales is five years. Five years. That is a huge impact on a child if they're not getting the support while they're waiting for that assessment to be undertaken. So, can I ask, you're not ring-fencing the money that you're giving to local education authorities for spending on schools; you're not ring-fencing the money that's going to education authorities for additional learning needs, but is that something that you might consider in the future, in order to make sure that these children do benefit from it?

Thank you very much, Darren. Obviously, the numbers of children and young people on ND waiting lists are a cause of major concern for us across the Government. As you've highlighted, additional money was announced by the Cabinet Secretary for health to really focus on those waiting times, and my colleague Sarah Murphy had also announced that there was a design event, where we worked with the NHS executive before Christmas to look at what we can do about those waiting times for ND services. Because the numbers are so large, I think there is an acknowledgement that we can't keep doing the same thing—we need to take a different approach to that situation. I think it is really important to be clear that children don't need a diagnosis to have support in school for their additional learning needs, and we are very clear with schools about that. That support should be provided based on the needs of a child in that situation, and we do re-emphasise that all the time to schools. We're also taking other steps to upskill schools in the way they support children who are neurodiverse. We're currently developing a new training programme for teachers and school staff, which is focused on neurodiversity, mental health and child development, to really upskill the workforce.

You've highlighted that the funding isn't ring-fenced. There was a very significant uplift to the RSG of £253 million extra. It was made clear in the letter that was issued to local authorities that that was to recognise the pressures that they had highlighted around education, ALN, as well as social care. But some of the money that is going to the sector on ALN is in fact earmarked for ALN. There's additional funding via the local authority education grant—that's a considerable amount this year, and I can write to you with the full details, if that would be helpful. That money will be earmarked for local authorities to address the pressures in the ALN system. It does mean that a substantial amount—I think, from memory, that it's around £35 million—will be going in to address those pressures. It's a balance, isn't it? Local authorities need to be able to fund things that they recognise are priorities locally, and they have all, without exception, raised concerns with me about the pressures in ALN. But we also need to make sure that the funding goes to do that strategic work with local authorities, to meet the pressures in the system.

Cabinet Secretary, a constituent contacted me before Christmas, and it appears that she's fought tirelessly over the years to ensure her daughter gets the education and the support she needs. She has additional learning needs. She's now 19 and wants to learn skills that will help her to secure employment in the future. Whilst looking at various options, my constituent was unable to find any outcome data in the performance measures of the courses they were looking at—basic and crucial information, such as the employment rate, both paid and unpaid, of learners who have undertaken those courses. As you know, this is so important, because people are struggling financially, and my constituent wanted to make sure that the course will be of real practical support and value for her daughter. Therefore, how will you, Cabinet Secretary, with the Minister for further education, and others, ensure that ALN provision represents good value for money and the best outcomes for learners? Diolch yn fawr.

Thanks very much, Rhys. As you know, our ALN system is a nought-to-25 system, and we have legal obligations under the Learning and Skills Act 2000 to provide provision for post-16 learners; there's a process that families go through with Careers Wales. In terms of the outcomes data that you are referring to, I just wanted to acknowledge that it is really important that families are making choices based on the best information. I will certainly take that point away and have a look at that and discuss it with Careers Wales.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Natasha Asghar.

Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, can I just begin by saying that I'm really delighted to be taking up this new role? I know that we're not going to see eye to eye every single time, but I hope that we can indeed have a constructive relationship going forward.

It's no secret to us, or anyone outside of this Chamber, that the education sector is indeed under immense pressure, and our children aren't always getting the education that they deserve. Unfortunately, it's sad, but true, this is down to decades of Labour mismanagement. Indeed, a recent Institute for Fiscal Studies report confirmed that lower educational outcomes were not down to poverty, a varied ethnic mix of pupils, or indeed statistical biases or differences in resources; they’re more likely, according to this report, to reflect difference in policy and approach—in a nutshell, successive Labour Governments here in Cardiff.

It’s deeply shocking to me, having taken on this role, that 20 per cent of pupils are leaving schools functionally illiterate. And the reason for that worrying figure is that pupils are being taught to read via the cueing method—a discredited method outlawed in England over a decade ago. It’s clear this defunct method must be banned here in Wales, yet unfortunately, the Welsh Government doesn’t seem to be going down that route. So, Cabinet Secretary, can you please explain to me why the Welsh Government here feels that this deeply flawed method is the best way forward here?

Can I thank Natasha Asghar for her questions and welcome her to her new portfolio and wish her well with it? Like her, I hope that we can continue to have constructive engagement. We all want the best for our children and young people in Wales.

You referred to the IFS report, which we’ve had a lot of discussion about in this Chamber, and I took the IFS report very seriously. That doesn’t mean that I agreed with everything in it. I certainly don’t think it was pinning it on political differences; it was highlighting some different approaches with policy. One of the things that it highlighted was concerns about the Curriculum for Wales, when the learners that the report was talking about, who underwent the PISA tests, haven’t actually been through the Curriculum for Wales. I don’t think that the report is infallible, but I’m always keen to look at research. We want our policy to be evidence based, and Luke Sibieta, who wrote the report, is a member of my expert advisory group.

I’ve been really clear since coming into post that a sustained improvement in educational attainment is my top priority, and that means an absolute focus on literacy and numeracy. I have to say that the report that she’s referred to, which talks about functional illiteracy, is more than 12 years old now and we don’t describe it in those terms; Estyn doesn’t use those terms either. I’ve set out a full range of measures to really drive literacy and numeracy, which has been underpinned with substantial additional funding. I’ve been really clear with the sector as well that this is a priority for us. And we have also clarified the expectations of schools around the teaching of phonics.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I appreciate you saying that it’s an important issue for you; it’s an important issue for me too, and is one that my predecessor, Tom Giffard, quite rightly frequented and challenged you on in this Chamber. Cueing has indeed been found to damage the ability of many young children to read. Wales’s curriculum might include the systematic teaching of phonics, but it also mandates cueing strategies alongside it. In response to a debate last October, you said that the Government would be publishing changes to curriculum guidance that clarifies the definitions and expectations around phonics and cues in January. We're approaching the end of January, Cabinet Secretary, so when is the guidance coming out?

We’re doing this work in phases: we've clarified expectations with schools that we expect all schools to be teaching phonics; we are putting in place enhanced professional learning to assist schools with the teaching of literacy and numeracy; and we have a national support programme that we are developing to support the teaching of literacy and numeracy. We’re also revising our literacy and numeracy framework, and that will be put on a statutory footing. We’re hoping that that will go out to full consultation in the spring.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I do appreciate that timeline that you’ve just shared with us. Without a doubt, the effects of illiteracy are enormous and profound, with studies showing that those who are unable to read are more likely to go to prison, suffer from mental health issues, and even die younger. Since banning the cueing method in England, reading test scores have risen, taking them to nearly the top of international rankings. The right thing, in my opinion, Cabinet Secretary, would be to scrap it completely. So, Cabinet Secretary, my final question: instead of pushing ahead with this method, which is hampering our children’s future in every corner of Wales, will the Government commit to abolishing the cueing method?

I’m not aware that anybody has abolished cueing completely in England, actually. If you can point me to where they have actually outlawed cueing—. We have been really clear that we expect the teaching of phonics to be the key part of teaching literacy in Wales. Teachers are professionals, and Estyn has said that there needs to be a balanced approach to the teaching of reading. Estyn has also been clear that they are seeing good work across schools in Wales in terms of teaching reading in those earlier years. It’s the later years when it becomes more of a concern to Estyn, and those transition periods. And that’s why we are focusing funding on that.

We have also established a literacy expert panel—I don’t know if we’ve published the details of that yet, but if not, I’m happy to give you the details—which is a very balanced panel. But we have been really clear, and, to be honest, it is a bit disappointing that we’re going back to this knockabout over phonics, because I’ve been really clear how important phonics is, and I think the sector are clear, and we’re all just getting on with the job, and that will be clarified in a statutory literacy and numeracy framework.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Cefin Campbell. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, last week you published a written statement outlining the Government’s intention to begin working on a strategic education workforce plan. That is despite the First Minister saying just a few days prior to that that she didn’t want to see any more fancy strategies. Plaid Cymru leader, Rhun ap Iorwerth, made clear then to the First Minister that strategies are, in fact, needed to get to grips with the whole host of issues facing Wales at the moment, not least, of course, in education.

I welcome her commitment to developing a strategy, because, as we all know, the teaching profession is, of course, facing a recruitment and retention crisis—a crisis that hasn’t appeared out of nowhere overnight, but has been exacerbated by Labour in Wales’s failure to meet their own recruitment targets for secondary school teachers over the past eight years.

Cabinet Secretary, would you agree with me that last week’s written statement was an admission of failure, really, on behalf of the Welsh Government, and that you’ve failed to get to grips with recruiting and retaining sufficient numbers into the teaching profession in Wales?

Thank you very much, Cefin. You won’t be surprised to find that I don’t agree with you that the statement was an admission of failure. The statement was the result of my reflections since coming into post on the range of workforce issues I’ve been dealing with.

Our workforce is our most precious resource in terms of meeting the needs of our children and young people, and I’ve been really struck since coming into post by the range of issues that I’m dealing with that relate to workforce—we’re talking about well-being, reducing workload. We want to improve the situation for support staff in Wales, and, of course, we want to tackle issues with recruitment and retention of teachers. And we are not alone in facing challenges in that space. Our recruitment at primary school level is very healthy; it is more of a challenge at secondary school. And that is a challenge in other countries as well.

The workforce plan that I announced was an attempt to bring together all those issues, so that we can work on them as a coherent whole with the sector. I’ve already had initial discussions with the Welsh Local Government Association, who are, of course, the employers in lots of cases, but also, we will work in partnership with trade union colleagues to deliver this workforce plan, which is in its early days.

Of course, some of the issues you’ve outlined we've known about for many years. But I still welcome the fact that you’ve got a plan, because it is a serious matter that does affect how we recruit and retain teachers.

It’s clear that the statement came far too late for many teachers who have now left the sector. But the statement was very light indeed on detail and there was no reference, much to my disappointment—no paragraph, no sentence, not even a single word—to the creation of a bilingual workforce. Now, we cannot take any workforce plan seriously in Wales unless it clearly sets out how the Welsh Government will go about increasing the number of teachers who can teach through the medium of Welsh. This is particularly pertinent as the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill goes through the Senedd. So, as things stand, the Government says that there's no need for a statutory bilingual workforce plan that would compel firm and clear action in this area. What we're being offered is a non-statutory plan, and the Cabinet Secretary says that this gives Ministers flexibility, but it also gives flexibility to future Ministers—and this is the risk—to backslide, to cease plans to create a bilingual workforce. So, what assurance can you give me, Cabinet Secretary, of your commitment to creating a bilingual education workforce, considering the fact that you didn't mention it at all in your statement?

Thank you, Cefin. I’m very happy to give you that assurance that I am very committed to creating a bilingual workforce. It’s early days for the new workforce plan. I can assure you that the Welsh language will be a key part of that, just as it was a key part of the strategic mental health plan when I was in my previous portfolio. I don’t think it needs to be a statutory plan. I think this is about action and us all working together to deliver. Obviously, we’ve got to make sure that we can plan the workforce to meet the ambitions in the new legislation, but also I think we have to recognise that people teaching Welsh or teaching through the medium of Welsh have the same issues around well-being, workload and other issues that we have to address in a holistic way. So, my commitment is clear that it’s there to deliver for the whole of our workforce, to meet the needs of all children and young people in Wales.

Diolch. My fear is that if it’s not statutory, then we could well see a rowing back on that in the future by whoever might be in your role.

On recruitment, one way to ensure an increase in the number of Welsh-medium teachers, as well as reducing the shortage of teachers in priority subject areas, is through teacher training incentive schemes. Whilst the Welsh Government does have various different incentive schemes to support recruitment into the profession, the effectiveness of these schemes is, of course, another matter, especially when the Welsh Government is failing to collect even the most basic data to help them in this regard, something I’ve raised with you many times in the past. That’s why, when reading your evidence paper to the education committee’s budget scrutiny session last week, I was glad to see that the Welsh Government have again heeded Plaid Cymru’s call for a rethink in this area. The evidence paper stated, and I quote:

‘An evaluation of the policy to support ITE in Wales will be conducted in 2025 and report in 2026; this will include research into the efficacy of incentivisation.’

So, I’d be grateful if you could tell me who will be conducting the review on this? Will the terms of reference be published? And will the completed review be published publicly in full before the end of this Senedd term?

Thank you, Cefin. As you’ve highlighted, we’ve got a whole range of incentives designed to tackle shortages in key subjects, and we’re investing a substantial amount of money in those. For some teachers, that could mean an incentive of £15,000 each. I’ve acknowledged that we need to do more in relation to the data. I think it is also important to recognise that these incentives do need some time to work their way through the system as well. So, if you look at the incentives for ethnic minority teachers, we haven’t had sufficient people yet go through that system to really judge the efficacy of it.

Thank you for welcoming the review. I’m not aware whether the contract for that has been let, but I am very happy to commit to publishing further details on the review. We always publish the evaluations that we do as a Government, so I would expect that to happen as well, as a matter of course.

Question 3 is next. Sioned Williams.  

Thank you, Llywydd. And I declare an interest before I ask my question, Llywydd, namely that my husband is employed by Swansea University and a member of the University and College Union.   

The Welsh Government has increased tuition fees next year, providing up to £21.9 million in additional income to universities. We have also provided an additional £10 million to the sector, bringing total grant funding to over £200 million in the current financial year.

Diolch. The University and College Union has written to each of us who represent areas with universities in them, urging us to raise the funding crisis in Welsh universities. I was glad to hear the Cabinet Secretary say that the education workforce is our most precious resource. Well, the higher education workforce are facing severe conditions as a result of restructuring, voluntary severance, pay freezes and the very real risk of compulsory redundancy, all of which, of course, is impacting our students. While the additional £10 million uplift in the in-year budget is welcome, it’s only served to reverse cuts to the original budget, and the increase in fees you mentioned won’t be sufficient to offset the higher costs facing our universities, such as national insurance contributions as a result of the UK Government’s autumn budget, the cuts to foundation year fees in light of the cap introduced for English students, as well as the fact that the slowness of the announcement on fees from the Welsh Government coming late in the recruitment cycle means universities are having to grapple with consumer law implications—some students paying £9,000, others £9,250 in this academic year—and you still haven’t laid the relevant regulations in the Senedd. Medr hasn’t yet issued formal guidance to universities. So, with no real rise for higher education in this year’s draft budget, what is your plan to support and safeguard the vital contribution our universities make to our communities, our society and our economy?

Well, thank you, Sioned for that supplementary question. I’ll start by saying that, by increasing the tuition fee limits for undergraduate students in Wales by 3.1 per cent for the 2025-26 academic year, that’s up from £9,250 to £9,535 a student, we will enable universities to generate up to £21.9 million in additional income. And, of course, this follows on from the increase in fees agreed by the previous education Minister for 2024-25, and, together, this has enable universities to maintain their tuition fee income in real terms, which accounts for more than half of their income. Of course, I do recognise the financial pressures that our higher education institutions here in Wales and across the UK are under, and I continue to meet regularly with university and college leaders to understand the pressures that they are facing. Universities are undergoing a significant period of painful readjustment following the recent sudden decrease in international postgraduate enrolments. Some are undertaking a fundamental re-examination of their institutional business models and seeking greater efficiency and opportunities for collaboration between institutions, and, of course, those type of decisions will never be easy. But, in terms of the Welsh Government’s role, it’s really important to state that higher education funding in Wales compares favourably to other UK nations. According to London Economics research, published in 2024, net higher education funding per full-time student in Wales in 2023-24 was 18 per cent higher than in Scotland, 22 per cent higher than in Northern Ireland, and we expect that our funding will be at a comparable level to England now that tuition fees are the same in both England and Wales in 2024-25, and again in 2025-26.

I would also like to stress that I do meet regularly with sector representatives, and not just vice-chancellors of universities, but trade union representatives as well, and I’m keen to continue that dialogue and to work within social partnership principles to support university staff, students and everyone who works in the higher education sector through these difficult times. 

The decision, of course, by the Welsh Government to increase the tuition fee cap for Welsh universities for full-time undergraduate degrees does raise significant concerns about the sustainability of higher education in Wales. Whilst the Government claims this rise will help ensure universities remain viable and competitive, it does highlight the mounting financial pressures that our wonderful institutions face. These challenges were made very evident yesterday when I joined Adam Price and other campaigners on the steps of the Senedd to support the University of Wales Trinity Saint David's Lampeter campus. And you may wonder why. I'll tell you. I have numerous constituents in Aberconwy who have actually graduated from this wonderful institution. Now, the proposed closure of up to 30 courses, ending undergraduate teaching, would not only devastate this historic campus, but have far-reaching consequences for the local economy of Lampeter and west Wales, and will deprive people who want to go there. So, how does the Welsh Government plan to balance fee increases with preserving regional access to higher education and support these struggling but wonderful campuses, like Lampeter, in rural Wales? Diolch.

Thank you, Janet, for that supplementary question and, of course, I am aware of the concerns that have been raised by students at Lampeter university regarding the potential closure of that campus there, which, obviously I should say, comes under the University of Wales Trinity Saint David. It's a very unique campus because it is so small and intimate. I believe there are only 92 full-time undergraduate students, which means that it is smaller than your average primary school in Wales. And, of course, the kind of students who would opt for that kind of environment would see it as being very different to other institutions. So, I do understand their concerns. But, really, you know, as universities in Wales are autonomous institutions, it wouldn't be appropriate for Welsh Ministers to intervene in their academic matters, whether that's course delivery, campus location, or both. But, of course, I recognise, as I've said, that the proposal may have an impact on students and staff, and I would urge those affected to raise their concerns directly with the university itself. I note also that the proposal is intended to safeguard the study of humanities in the university by enabling the humanities departments to be co-located with other disciplines and, therefore, offer a more vibrant student experience. The aim is, definitely, to reinvigorate the study of humanities at that university.

Just to close, and reiterate what I said to Sioned in her initial question, I do recognise the financial pressure that our higher education institutions in Wales are under, and I intend to continue, both me and my officials, that regular, constructive engagement with sector leaders on this.

On 13 January, I published a written statement setting out my intention to work with the sector to develop a strategic education workforce plan to address a wide range of issues and improve recruitment and retention in the education workforce.

Thank you so much for your response, Cabinet Secretary. Teacher numbers in Wales are still in decline. In 2019, we had more than 31,300 teachers, yet, fast forward to 2024, and there are 29,988. However, the number of qualified teachers in Wales stands at 35,865, meaning that there are 5,877 qualified teachers who aren't teaching in our schools. As well as boosting teacher numbers, it's clear that more needs to be done when it comes to retention. I know my colleague Cefin Campbell raised this earlier. The Welsh Government announced its desire for a strategic education workforce plan last week and, I must say, I was a bit disappointed that it wasn't brought to the Chamber, Cabinet Secretary, but I hope, in future, that you will be able to do so. And I do feel this is, unfortunately, too little too late when it comes to teacher retention, and it's really vital that we all get to grips with how to deal with this, going forward. Unfortunately, I didn't feel that we've got anything concrete in place, as a plan, as a strategy, and, in your written statement, you admitted that you'd merely begun discussions. Now, the workloads of already overstretched teachers will continue to pile up and, Cabinet Secretary, I am concerned that this may become one of those listening exercises that we've heard many Ministers taking upon themselves in the past, but the time for action is now, Cabinet Secretary. You were kind enough to provide me with a detailed timeline in your previous responses to me—

You need to ask your question now, please.

I will now. So, I'd like to know what action will the Government be taking to tackle teacher recruitment and retention in the interim, because I'm fearful that without a detailed, impactful, influential plan, soon no-one is going to know what exactly they are doing in relation to this ticking time bomb within our education system. So, I'd like a detailed timeline, please.

Thank you very much, Natasha. And I want to be clear, as I hope I was with Cefin, that this isn't a question of just doing new work. This is about looking at what we're doing already, and we are doing lots and lots and lots of work around recruiting and retaining teachers. I mentioned our incentive schemes that we have for shortage subjects to Cefin. Teachers can have, if they fulfil each of the areas of category, £15,000 each to train in Wales. We've got incentives for the priority subjects, recognising where we're having the challenges and obviously the incentives on teaching through the medium of Welsh and for people from a minority ethnic community.

We've also got a range of other activities that we're doing, and that's not just about promoting teaching as a career through TeachWales. We fund the Education Workforce Council's educators.wales website as well. We've also got initiatives like cynllun pontio. Those are for teachers who have been away from the profession, maybe like some of the ones you've just referred to, to return to teaching in Welsh. We've got opportunities for primary teachers to cross over to the secondary sector, and for teachers from the English-medium sector to cross over to the Welsh-medium sector. But I think it's important—. Oh, and I should mention as well that we've got employment-based teaching pathways now, salaried PGCEs, which are delivered by the Open University. So, those enable people to work in schools at the same time as gaining their teaching qualification.

But I think the reasons for challenges with recruitment and retention are really complex, and it is also about workload issues, and we have done lots of work around decreasing workload, which I've previously made a statement on. It's about well-being, and we are committed as a Government to a whole-school approach, not just for our children, but for our workforce as well. But another issue that has been really prominent in recent months is the issue of behaviour and how that is impacting on people working within the profession, and, indeed, I've spoken to teachers who have been worried about staying in the profession because of the stresses of the behaviour that they're dealing with. So, again, we've been working with our trade union partners. We have a summit on behaviour coming up in the spring, as well as research on behaviour, an Estyn review on behaviour, and we're publishing a toolkit on behaviour. So, I wouldn't want to give the impression about the workforce plan that this is a 'starting from scratch' thing. This is very much about bringing what we're doing together and trying to do that in a more coherent way so that we can see what's happening right across the system.

Improving attendance continues to be a top priority. Whilst we have seen improvements, returning attendance rates to pre-pandemic levels is an ambitious task. To support this, I have announced £8.8 million, across this year and next, to increase capacity across the educational support network, focusing specifically on improving engagement and attendance.

Thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary. Monmouthshire County Council report attendance at primary schools in the Severnside area of Newport East almost back to pre-pandemic levels. This includes Castle Park, Durand, Y Ffin, Rogerstone, Magor and Undy schools, all of which are a pleasure to visit, with their welcoming and nurturing environment for pupils and their families. The local education authority emphasises schools following up absence on the first day if the parent doesn't contact the school very early to explain; early identification of any dip in attendance, together with positive relationships with the education welfare service, especially in more complex cases; and positive links between parents, teachers and the school using social media, newsletters and awards for good attendance. Cabinet Secretary, will you join me in congratulating the schools, their staff and the local authority on their effort and work to improve attendance?

Well, can I thank John Griffiths for that supplementary and say that I'm delighted to congratulate and commend both the local authority and all of the schools in question? It's really great to hear of the progress that they're making. And I think that what it shows is how you do need to have that granular approach to tackling issues with attendance, and we are making progress. It's going to take time. But it is vital, then, that as a Government we are doing what we can to share good practice between local authorities. And it was interesting to hear you note the role of the education welfare officers. A significant amount of the new funding that I've announced—so that's £1.5 million this year and £3 million next year—is for family engagement officers, and their role is to work with some of those families with the most complex needs to really tackle those barriers that are preventing the children and young people coming to school. And that, of course, is a key part of our community-focused schools programme as well, which I know you're really enthusiastic about. And we've also announced additional funding for community-focused schools, because as you highlight, that relationship between the school and the family is absolutely critical. So, the school is a key part of that community and it's about everybody working together. 

The 2025-26 draft budget includes a £200,000 increase in the budget for junior apprenticeships. This 50 per cent increase will ensure that current provision is fully funded and supports further growth in the next academic year, so that more learners can benefit from this successful programme.

Thank you very much for that response. Last week, I was very fortunate to visit Cardiff and Vale College to hear more about the innovative junior apprenticeship programme that they offer to young people between the ages of 14 and 16, with the intention of increasing the number of young people in education, employment and training. I was very pleased to see that the success rates were high, with most learners gaining vocational qualifications and GCSEs, and the majority then progressing to further education or employment.

Very interestingly, research has shown that programmes such as these could save around £0.75 million per capita over the long term, when considering the social and economic benefits of this kind of early intervention. However, there are a number of obstacles in expanding this provision, as you know, particularly financial costs and transport costs. And unfortunately, not all colleges across Wales are able to run similar programmes. So, the question is: do you expect adequate funding—and you've touched on this already—to be available in the future not only to increase provision in the colleges where it already exists, but to extend it to those colleges where that provision isn't currently available?

Thank you, Cefin. I'm really glad that you got the opportunity to see what they're doing in Cardiff and the Vale. I've been, and I know that my colleague Vikki Howells has been, and it's absolutely inspirational. And there's a high level of rigour as well with the vocational qualifications they're getting, with the GCSEs. And you touched on the money that initiatives like that save. I actually think that that's unquantifiable it's so big. If you think about what the risks are of young people becoming NEET, it is such a well-spent investment.

You've highlighted that there are obstacles, and obviously we've made the funding available, but it isn’t just about funding. As you’re aware, only some colleges offer this at the moment. There’s a bit of a geographical divide with it not being available in north Wales, so we are going to work with Medr and our colleges and schools to make sure that it is a consistent offer right across Wales. And obviously, I'll keep the funding under review as we do that. I think it’s important that we tackle those obstacles, so that it is something that is available to learners right across Wales. And I’m also conscious that at the moment it’s not available through the medium of Welsh, and that’s something that I also want to see tackled.

And finally, question 7, Joyce Watson. 

The sustainable communities for learning capital programme has invested over £2 billion of Welsh Government funding since 2014. In addition to this, I recently approved strategic outline plans for a further £3.5 billion of Welsh Government investment for the education estate in Wales under the programme’s nine-year rolling programme.

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. Thanks to this programme, of course a collaboration between the Welsh Government and local authorities, there have been millions of pounds invested in improving existing schools and also new buildings across my constituency of Mid and West Wales. And, of course, we all understand that school buildings play a key role in educational standards, in the pupils’ learning environment, but also for the teachers delivering that education from within those. And also it raises the expectation for the pupils that they are worthy of a good space, and therefore worthy participants in that educational environment. So, the sum, as you said, is over £3 billion in school and college buildings in Wales since 2014; that is a massive investment by this Government.

So, do you agree with me that that recent announcement that you have just outlined of additional funding shows that the Welsh Government are committed to improving even further the school buildings in Wales?

Thank you very much, Joyce. And it’s £2 billion since 2014 and a further £3.5 billion that we are doing under the programme’s nine-year rolling programme. And I’m really glad as well that you highlighted that what this shows is a really positive partnership with local government as well. That’s absolutely vital to recognise, and I completely agree with you: having top-quality buildings is absolutely crucial and it does send a message to children and young people that they’re valued, but it also helps with the kind of issues around recruitment and retention that we have talked about, and I think probably the favourite part of my job is when I get to go and see these buildings and to talk to the learners and the staff who are enjoying them. And I absolutely agree with you: I’m really proud of the commitment we’ve made as a Government to making sure that our education is delivered in absolutely top-class facilities.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

We'll move now to the topical questions, and there is just one today, and I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to ask the question.

Diolch yn fawr. Before Christmas we were pleased to donate £100,000 to the Disasters Emergency Committee's appeal for the middle east. Earlier today I announced that the Welsh Government would be donating a further £100,000. 

May I start, Dirprwy Lywydd, by welcoming the written statement issued by the Government today saying that there will be a further financial contribution of £100,000 to the DEC humanitarian campaign in the middle east, and bringing the total since October last year to £200,000? The DEC brings 15 charities together in order to do incredible work in very, very challenging circumstances. And on behalf of Plaid Cymru, I would like to pay tribute to their tireless work.

The ceasefire in Gaza, whilst long overdue, offers hope after the darkest of days. The humanitarian response from the international community must not repeat the inaction of Governments around the world since Hamas's shocking and horrific attacks of 7 October. Yes, the international community rightly condemned and was appalled by those acts of terror, but had the international community stood firmer against the immoral and illegal actions of the Israeli Government, fewer Palestinian lives would have been lost, and the scale of devastation would not have been on the scale that we have witnessed. With over 30,000 people facing life-changing injuries, rehabilitation services largely unavailable, rising transmission of infectious diseases, malnutrition and the risk of famine exacerbating the crisis, we need an unprecedented humanitarian response, with everyone who can playing their part. Reopening aid corridors blocked illegally by the Israeli Government in the first place does at least allow some respite for Palestinians, who have endured so much already.

Wales has a proud tradition of advocating for peace and supporting aid efforts in war-torn countries. We have done so with significant support to Ukraine following Russia's invasion. So, can the Cabinet Secretary give assurances that the Welsh Government will explore further and continued financial support for the rebuilding efforts in line with its recent commitments to other conflicts?

Secondly, can I press upon the Cabinet Secretary the need to support Welsh families affected in the region, and can I ask her to speak about the Government's ability to co-ordinate Welsh expertise that can contribute to the long-term rebuilding of Gaza's essential infrastructure, including the housing, healthcare and education sectors? Can I ask her to commit to Welsh Government pressing always on UK Government to consider how its actions in terms of political positioning, international advocacy, aid funding, arms sales and so on act in the interests of peace and justice? Above all else, will she commit the Welsh Government to increasing its advocacy on the international stage for a just and lasting peace for the people of both Israel and Palestine?

Diolch yn fawr, Rhun ap Iorwerth. Diolch yn fawr. Thank you for welcoming the statement today, welcoming the donation that we made today, following the donation of £100,000 in October. Also, it provides us with an opportunity, your question this afternoon, to recognise how much money has been raised. The Disasters Emergency Committee middle east humanitarian appeal has so far raised more than £2.4 million in Wales and £39 million in the UK. I think this shows an expression of Welsh people's support, who are coming forward to contribute to that appeal.

As you say, this gives us an opportunity to thank the charities, thank the DEC charities, who have supported and support people in so many ways, and specifically now as we focus on this appeal. To give you some examples, Oxfam and their local partners are providing families in the Deir al Balah and Khan Yunis areas of Gaza with cash assistance to cope with spiralling prices at local markets. The British Red Cross and their partners are providing vital medical care to the many sick and injured in Gaza, as well as supplying desperately needed medicine as well. It is important that DEC charities are hopeful that the ceasefire in Gaza will provide them and their local partners with a critical opportunity to scale up their work, delivering urgently needed food, shelter, water and medical care. This is why the Welsh Government has made a further donation to support this vital work and why we do respond. In relation to your final point, where we can, we will respond in terms of helping this humanitarian aid, in this instance, in Gaza.

But also, just to say, I think it's important that the ceasefire agreement does actually help DEC charities scale up the aid that they're delivering in Gaza, and also some respite from the enormous challenges and risks they have faced every day in their work. And you've acknowledged the risks that those aid workers face and the loss of life, of course, as we've heard as well. So, new access routes, opportunities to use existing routes more widely, allowing them to increase the amount of urgent aid being delivered to the people of Gaza, many of whom have endured an unimaginably harsh winter, after more than a year of devastating conflict.

And, of course, we continue, where we can, with that advocacy at an international level, looking also, as you raised the question, at those affected here in Wales—families in the region joining the international community—and, of course, this includes hoping that all hostages, including of the family living here in Wales, are released quickly and unharmed, but engaging, of course, with the UK Government, who lead on foreign policy on these matters.

Trefnydd, I'm very grateful for your statement this morning confirming the Welsh Government support to the Disasters Emergency Committee, and I very much welcome this announcement. We've all watched in horror the growing humanitarian crisis that has unfolded in Gaza in recent years, and it's absolutely vital that the entire international community does everything it can to provide effective humanitarian support to those in need.

Your statement this morning told us that, in Gaza, around 1.8 million people are facing shortages of food, as supplies have become increasingly scarce. And we also know that there are many people in need of acute medical treatment and care. Therefore, I share the Welsh Government's hope that the ceasefire will provide the Disasters Emergency Committee charities with an opportunity to do more in terms of delivering vital supplies and care, and I look forward to hearing more about the progress made in delivering that support.

Dirprwy Lywydd, we are all united in this Chamber in calling for peace; we all want to see a permanent end to the hostilities in Gaza, and I believe that a two-state solution is the best way to establish a lasting peace in the area. Therefore, the international community, in my view, must do much more to engage with Israeli and Palestinian leaders and ensure that discussions between both sides continue to take place in the future.

So, Trefnydd, following on from the Member for Ynys Môn's questions, can you tell us a bit more about the work that is being undertaken with partners and agencies across Wales to deliver humanitarian support in Gaza? And can you also tell us how the Welsh Government will be monitoring this situation and the support it can provide to charities undertaking this important work?

Thank you very much indeed, Paul Davies. And thank you, again, for acknowledging that we are united, I think, in the Chamber today in our response and in responding to the question, but those questions that you are also raising on behalf of the people we represent in Wales.

It is important that we must see a concerted effort by the international community to deliver into Gaza, and it is the international community—we are one small part of that international community. We need to deliver the humanitarian aid, which is so desperately needed. Also, we're very aware of health and humanitarian professionals from Wales who've travelled to the middle east to work in very challenging circumstances. And we continue to consider what support and co-ordination we can offer, and we want the ceasefire to hold and the reconstruction of Gaza to begin. We will work with the UK Government to ensure that any such support is properly co-ordinated, with our engagement, with the international effort.

It's very good to hear the chief whip of the Welsh Conservatives saying that we want a two-state solution, and it's good that we all agree on that. Obviously, this is a very fragile situation, and the latest military activity by the Israeli military in Jenin is very worrying in terms of the impact that that might have in provoking other people to do something that disrupts the fragile ceasefire that we currently have.

I was very impressed to listen to Dr Clare Frost on the BBC on Sunday. She is a general practitioner from Cardigan who has been working in central Gaza since September, seeing up to 400 patients a day, having bullets swinging by the hospital and all sorts of other huge complications; one of them may have been mitigated now that we are seeing equipment being allowed into Gaza, because she was talking about the lack of basic equipment to treat children with respiratory infections and with skin infections. But she was also talking very clearly about the number of malnourished children and traumatised children—the numbers are going to be absolutely huge.

Now, the Welsh NHS has got a proud history, as you said, of giving leave of absence to enable them to attend disaster zones. I just wondered if, in your further considerations, the Government would consider a donation to UK-Med, which is sponsoring Clare Frost in Gaza, because they will know exactly what's needed in specific areas and it short circuits the lines of communications when you're dealing with one organisation specifically dealing with medical problems. So, we could consider, hopefully, giving either money or equipment in kind, because, obviously, the demands are massive, but I just wanted to add that and, also, to publicly give a shout out for her work and that of other medics working in these conditions.

Thank you very much, Jenny Rathbone, and thank you for drawing attention to the courageous work of Dr Clare Frost, a doctor from Ceredigion. We applaud her and, as I've mentioned, the many others who have gone to—health and humanitarian professionals from Wales who've travelled to—the middle east and to Gaza in particular, in terms of Clare Frost's role, and also drawing attention, as she did, to the needs there. Now, I'll just say that—. And the needs of the children, and, of course, these are children who are sick and ill and injured. But also we must recognise the needs that are not just health needs; I'll give you one example: Concern Worldwide and local partners aim to distribute around 5,000 litres of clean water every two days in Gaza, distributing hygiene supplies and building sanitation facilities. The work that is being undertaken already, and now in the reconstruction, by these organisations—and, of course, you've drawn attention to the organisation supporting Dr Clare Frost—we need to look at every way in which we can support, as we have done in Wales. As we speak, help is being provided in Ukraine—ongoing help—and in kind, through facilities, through equipment, and I think today, importantly, through the fund, the grant, that we've made to the Disasters Emergency Committee, DEC Cymru. But let's, yes, hear more about that humanitarian support and aid, and what is needed as we support this really fragile, but so important, peace process.

I also welcome, following the calls I made on the Government yesterday to increase its support to the immense humanitarian efforts needed to rebuild homes, hospitals, businesses, communities and lives, that there is now a further £100,000 being contributed in the name of the people of Wales to the DEC middle east appeal. I would just want to draw your attention to the disparity, though, and the message that that sends. The Welsh Government contributed £4 million to the DEC humanitarian appeal for the people of Ukraine in March 2022. When we consider the scale of the obliteration of Gaza, I just think we should be mindful of the message that that could send.

The chief executive of Oxfam, Halima Begum, has stated in her response to the newly begun first phase of this ceasefire that over 2 million people in Gaza

'have been systematically deprived of the essentials to live, with food and water being used as weapons of war, schools, hospitals and entire communities being razed to the ground and deliveries of aid constantly withheld.'

We must remember that this humanitarian suffering was not caused by a natural disaster, but by the flouting by Israel of international law and human rights conventions, and by the fact that the UK Government has continued to sell arms to the Israeli Government. So, will you now call on the UK Government to stop doing so? How are you ensuring Wales has ensured that it's taking every measure possible, within its competence, to make sure it's not contributing to potential war crimes, through direct or indirect connections, partnerships or funding? Israeli politicians and military commanders openly stated that the people of Gaza must have no future. Will the Welsh Government add Wales's voice to those of other sub-state Governments in calling for the Israeli Government to be held to account for war crimes? We must do this if we want the people of Gaza to have the future they deserve.

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. It is important that we look at this in terms of the widest context of how this has come about and where we want to move to in terms of a solution, so that we turn what has been a war zone into not just a ceasefire, but a solution for a better future for Israeli and Palestinian people, and—as I said yesterday, in response to questions—grounded in a two-state solution, guaranteeing that security and stability for Israel, alongside a sovereign and viable Palestine state.

It is the UK and its allies who will be at the forefront of these crucial efforts to break the cycle of violence and secure long-term peace in the middle east. And I think we have to do what we can in terms of our powers, our voices, and the voices now are heard today—and your voice will be heard today, of course, on the record—in terms of the situation, and what we would hope for, and what will happen now in terms of the world stage.

I think it is now important to recognise that the ceasefire is now in place in Gaza, and indeed in Lebanon—we haven't mentioned that as well. DEC Cymru is supporting need in Lebanon as well as Gaza. We need to make sure that our contribution today, and in October, does mean that DEC charities can do more to reach people, with food, shelter and medical support. Because millions of people are in urgent need, and that support is needed, and we will do everything we can to ensure that that support is given, and that we respond in the ways that I've said in answer to questions today. Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd.

And finally, John Griffiths.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement today. And thank you to other Members, from across the Chamber, for their contributions as well.

The scale of suffering in Gaza is unimaginable, isn't it? Tens of thousands of people killed, including so many women and children, many bodies beneath the rubble yet to be discovered, and so many injured, including an appalling number of children, having amputations, many of which were carried out without anaesthetic following the decimation of medical facilities and services. And other public services, of course, and so much property destroyed, and the restrictions on humanitarian aid and the basic essentials for life. It's obviously going to take a gargantuan effort to try and alleviate that suffering, and many, many countries will have to come to the table and contribute. It's good to see Welsh Government making donations to the Disasters Emergency Committee appeal that we've discussed. I think it's also very important to recognise the donations, as you have, Cabinet Secretary, from the people of Wales, demonstrating their concern and commitment to doing something about this situation. It's a very fragile ceasefire, as we know, isn't it, and any advocacy to sustain and build on that ceasefire, I think, is very, very important, and I'm sure Welsh Government, in conjunction with the UK Government, will want to do that.

Could I just ask, Cabinet Secretary, whether you could say a little bit more about how Welsh Government might structure and facilitate professionals in Wales being part of the effort, the gargantuan effort, to alleviate the suffering in Gaza, and also in terms of, more generally, the provision of goods and services? It would be good for Welsh Government just to think, in the round, how it can create some sort of framework and structure for that effort, which I think many in Wales will want to make. And we’ve already heard examples from Jenny Rathbone of medical professionals, for example, being part of that. But I think that Welsh Government could have a very important role, working with agencies, in providing some structure and framework for that as we go forward.

Diolch yn fawr, John Griffiths. Thank you for adding your voice to this statement today and your questions. You will be aware of DEC Cymru—the emergency committee—of the charities and leading organisations. We’re raising funds for them to do that work—those who are at the front line, who are already there, who know that there’s so much more that can be done. We’ve mentioned Oxfam, British Red Cross, Concern Worldwide, ActionAid—ActionAid’s partner in Gaza providing people with fresh vegetables; there’s a very limited supply across Gaza with 1.8 million people facing food shortages—CAFOD, Care, Christian Aid, Plan International, Save the Children, Tearfund, World Vision, Islamic Relief, the International Rescue Committee; there are 15 members of the DEC.

I would want to now say, Dirprwy Lywydd, that I would like to commit to meeting DEC on behalf of the Senedd, to ask more about how we can assist and help. Finance is what they need. I know they always say that. Each time we’ve made a donation, they have said, 'We want money. We need money, because we know how it’s going to be spent.' But there are ways in which we can look at other ways of support, and we will look at that further.

So, I think it is those member charities and their local partners, working on the ground, that we must turn to for that advice and guidance, and think of them as they are now providing winter support, including warm bedding, clean drinking water, and hygiene supplies, and how they are helping to reconstruct Gaza after a year of devastating conflict. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary and Trefnydd.

Item 4 this afternoon is the 90-second statements. There is just one this afternoon, and this will be from Elin Jones.

Geraint Jenkins recently passed away. He was a boy from Penparcau, who became a distinguished academic and university professor. His subject was Welsh history, and he was a history lecturer at Aberystwyth University from 1968 until 1993, and served as head of department there as well. Then, he became director of the Centre for Advanced Welsh and Celtic Studies at the University of Wales until 2008.

He inspired generations of students about Welsh history. One of his early students was the current King, and the experience of teaching a member of the royal family was a challenging one for a republican by instinct. But history didn't just belong within the walls of the university for Geraint Jenkins, and his work in editing the 24 volumes of the Cof Cenedl series of historical writings was a special combination of the popular with authoritative scholarship.

When dealing with the history of our country, he was innovative and diverse. For him, despite the importance of the political, economic and social history of Wales, the history of football was also important. His love for the game and for the Swans led, of course, to Proud to be a Swan, a book that charts a century of that important club’s history.

His contribution to promoting other areas of our history was also evident, particularly the study and recognition of our visual art, and in promoting recognition of the rich contribution made by Iolo Morgannwg to our culture. And despite his work on national concerns, his roots remained important in his writing on the history of Ceredigion, in his work for the community shop in Blaenplwyf, and in his interest in the history of Pendinas hillfort in Penparcau.

Geraint Jenkins was a patriot who contributed to his nation by enabling us to understand it more deeply in order to better steer its future. Thanks to him.

Item 5 is the debate on Natural Resources Wales's 'Case for Change'. I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to move the motion.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'd like to begin by thanking the Business Committee for giving the time to debate this issue today. Also, could I wish the Deputy First Minister a 'happy birthday'?

The motion before us today is quite simple in essence. All it calls for is for Natural Resources Wales to proactively engage with communities and local organisations in order to speed up the process of ensuring the preservation of the centres in Coed y Brenin, Nant yr Arian and Ynyslas, and to avoid permanent damage to the reputation of those centres, which would be inevitable if they were to close, and also the damage that would occur to the economy of mid Wales in the wake of that.

About 13 years ago, the Welsh Co-operative and Mutuals Commission recommended that the Welsh Government should legislate to allow communities to have first refusal when community assets come on the market. It is nine years now since the Labour Party promised to legislate to enable a community right to buy. I really don't know why the Co-operative Party continues to tie itself to the Labour Party, because even the Conservatives in England have put more measures in place to empower communities than Welsh Labour. And it’s three years since I co-submitted a motion to create a right of community ownership, but the Government continues to drag its feet, and the truth is that a Plaid Cymru Government will need to make this a reality following the next election because Labour obviously doesn't want to do it. If we had a law in place here in Wales today that empowered communities and gave them the right to own or run local public resources, then we wouldn't be having this discussion today.

Rather than seeing these resources as assets, Natural Resources Wales and, it seems, the Government, see them as liabilities, of no value, completely disregarding the importance of the visitor centres in making these destinations attractive, and their importance to the businesses and communities that have grown in their wake. They are, after all, part of our national and community wealth.

In order to justify closing the centres, Natural Resources Wales, and the Government therefore, choose to hide behind criticism of a Conservative bogeyman, blaming austerity for the decision and rejecting any accountability for their own failures to administer the centres properly. But austerity has nothing to do with the motion before us today. The Government can talk about austerity until the end of time, but that’s a diversion, in truth, and it avoids the central point of today’s debate.

While local organisations have declared their desire to run the Coed y Brenin and Nant yr Arian visitor centres—and, of course, there’s enough capacity locally to run the Ynyslas centre as well—Natural Resources Wales has hidden behind tendering and competition rules, which shows a lack of judgment, a lack of flexibility, and a lack of desire to find a solution. It all reminds one, in fact, of a support organisation, and as someone walks through the door to ask for help, the officer says, 'The answer is "no". Now, what's the question?' That seems to be the attitude of Natural Resources Wales here.

There is a reason why local residents are so keen to take control of these centres, namely because they see their value. Furthermore, they have seen the way that the centres have been run down over the years. Consider Coed y Brenin. Coed y Brenin is a gem. When the centre opened, it was immediately recognised as the best mountain biking centre in Europe—indeed, one of the best in the world. It received glowing reports, with people coming from far and wide to try the trails, to jog, or simply to go for a walk there. And who could blame them? Not only is it a great place for these outdoor activities, but it’s also a wonderful location. It developed a strong brand, and Coed y Brenin was the gateway to enable the sector to grow in the United Kingdom and in Europe. But, over time, and since the Government got rid of the environmental bodies and united them all under the Natural Resources Wales banner, less and less investment has been made in the trails, and there has been no desire to renew them and create new ones.

And today, as Natural Resources Wales is looking to close the visitor centres at Coed y Brenin, Nant yr Arian and Ynyslas due to financial problems, visitors continue to travel there for free, with the parking barrier not even working in Coed y Brenin, and nobody collecting parking charges in Ynyslas either, meaning that hundreds of thousands of pounds go uncollected annually. It’s little surprise that the body is facing financial challenges.

And what is Natural Resources Wales's latest plan to solve the parking issue in Coed y Brenin? According to what I’ve heard, it's to put automatic number plate recognition cameras in place, with the agreement to operate the system going to an external body, leading to even more wealth being extracted from the area. It sounds like an episode of the comedy series The Thick of It, but this is not a comedy, but rather decisions that have implications for the lives of people in our communities.

These centres are extremely important to the economy of the region, a region that, let's be honest, hasn't had its share of Government capital spending here, let alone the United Kingdom Government, and is indeed seeing services and support shrink. Consider the situation of the Cambrian railway line and the Heart of Wales line, which have both seen services cut and people and local communities pay the price. But I digress.

These centres attract a large number of visitors. In fact, according to Mid Wales Tourism research, these three centres attract around half a million people a year and contribute almost £40 million to the local economy annually. This is a significant amount for a rural area such as mid Wales, and it supports a number of small businesses locally in Meirionnydd, Ceredigion and Montgomeryshire. The sadness of the situation is that there are existing local enterprises ready to take over—enterprises full of experts in the field, who have the ability to add value to the work of Natural Resources Wales.

There is therefore a risk that the mid Wales economy will lose out on millions of pounds, all so that Natural Resources Wales saves just £1.2 million, a figure that can be said to be an accounting error against the Government's budget.

You will also know that Elin Jones, Member of the Senedd for Ceredigion, has also been working hard on this issue. As Elin says, we need recognition that the staff of these centres are doing a lot more than just administering shops and cafes. They're another pair of hands and another pair of eyes for Natural Resources Wales in important nature locations, safeguarding those sites, particularly if you look at Ynyslas. Then, if you look at Nant yr Arian, the biggest risk at the centre there is the mothballing that is in the offing, the mothballing of hospitality resources that are so important, and doing that when there is definite local interest in running those centres.

Natural Resources Wales needs to facilitate that so that local companies can take over as smoothly and as quickly as possible, so that these services are run on an unbroken basis for the public, which is the purpose of the motion here today.

So, don't hide behind austerity. I am here discussing this on behalf of the people of Meirionnydd, Ceredigion and Montgomeryshire, who are begging you to show your confidence in them, and to show that you support these areas, and to enable them to have a fair chance to run the centres that are so close to their hearts. Give them that chance, and you will be pleasantly surprised. Thank you.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Formally.

The decision by Natural Resources Wales—we are on this debate, yes? I thought we were—to reduce services and staffing is deeply worrying for both the Welsh environment and the goal of achieving net zero. How many times have we stood up here and discussed NRW in this Siambr? We’ve had quite firm views on how to take this forward, but what we need is a fully functioning regulatory body.

The 2023 ‘State of Nature’ report shows that one in six species in Wales, including plants and animals, are at risk of extinction, and 380 species since 1994 have declined by an average of 20 per cent, reflecting a global crisis where around 1 million species face threats, as outlined in the 2025 ‘State of Natural Resources Report’. NRW here in Wales plays a vital role in addressing this decline, yet they are under severe pressures. Their resources are very stretched, and by their own admission they have numerous vacant posts that they now cannot fill, but also they’re just so underresourced and understaffed.

The loss of over 200 jobs hardly helps; it just adds pressure to Wales’s environmental sector, making it much harder to meet those nature recovery and sustainability targets, when one in six species are already at risk. And I have to thank all the stakeholders who attended my climate change round-table this morning. We had a fantastic discussion, but there was joined-up thinking across the board that we’ve got to do something. Despite the promise of groundbreaking legislation, such as the Environment (Wales) Act 2016, the lack of staffing and resources has hindered meaningful progress.

And only yesterday, in this Chamber, I had to raise the fact that during a time of crisis for our farmers, when they couldn’t obtain any water extraction from the River Conwy to water their livestock, we had mixed messaging from NRW, and that shouldn’t be the case. When members of the public, our community, farmers in particular, residents, approached NRW for what is solid and firm advice they needed at a time of crisis, the answers were just not there.

The sustainable management of natural resources framework, while conceptually innovative, suffers from weak implementation and outdated policies, such as the natural resources policy. Similarly, key initiatives, like the nature recovery action plan, which is essential for halting biodiversity loss by 2030, remain incomplete, have no actual ambition and are massively underfunded. These setbacks highlight the broader issue of chronic underinvestment in nature recovery, a challenge that will clearly be further intensified by NRW's case for change.

Estimates suggest that £5 billion to £7 billion will be needed by the early 2030s to address the biodiversity crisis in Wales. However, the Welsh Government has yet to develop any clear financial strategy or secure adequate private sector investment to bridge this funding gap. NRW’s own financial difficulties impact Wales’s ability to meet international biodiversity commitments, such as the 30x30 target; it’s just impossible to achieve now.

Many organisations have raised concerns that the proposed cuts to NRW will hit implementation and further hinder protected site improvements. Even NRW themselves have acknowledged that a lack of external capacity has placed additional pressure on NRW in order to enable progress to be made through the work of these groups. Currently, only 10.5 per cent of terrestrial and inland waters in Wales are designated as protected. To meet the 2030 target, Wales must protect and effectively manage an additional 20 per cent of its land. However, progress is slow, and the absence of a clear and detailed plan casts significant doubt on the likelihood of achieving this goal, or, in fact, any goal.

According to NRW’s 2020 condition assessment, only 20 per cent of assessed features were considered to be in favourable condition. In contrast, approximately 30 per cent were in unfavourable condition and around 50 per cent were not in the desired state. NRW plays a critical role in monitoring the condition of protected site features through the UK’s common standards monitoring framework. This framework requires that sites of special scientific interest must be assessed at least once every six years. And I have to say—

You need to conclude now, please, Janet.

I will do. The last scrutiny of NRW in our committee was poor, to say the least. All the officers had come online, saying they couldn’t afford the petrol to attend an in-person meeting. Telephones were going off in the background, there was a dog barking on another one. It was just a very bad example of an organisation that is funded as much as NRW are that they couldn’t be bothered—

Thank you, Janet.

—to attend the meeting here in person. Diolch yn fawr.

We know that NRW hasn't been adequately funded for the huge number of tasks it has. Guess what? We've had 14 years of austerity and, basically, decisions to underfund bodies such as NRW by the UK Government in order to drive down the quality of public services. So, we need to fix this problem, and I'm sure that the Welsh Government is on the case. I think that NRW does a fantastic job overall, with a huge level of responsibilities as the regulator and enforcer of our land, rivers and seas in the face of both the climate and nature emergencies.

I think it's an entirely sensible decision to only do what they can do and to allow other people to run the catering operations at these three visitor centres. That seems entirely rational. But I'm struggling to understand why it's taken so long to get this sorted out, because it was certainly on the agenda when the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee visited mid Wales in October, because a lot of the tourism businesses raised it as a concern then. So, why are we still having this discussion? I appreciate they've got to engage with the local community, to find out who's interested in running these retail services, so that we have a really good service that really complements the other tourism activities in the area, but I'm struggling to understand why it's taken as long as this, because it's now four months since we knew about this. 

Obviously, I expect them to be supporting the foundational economy in any of the areas where NRW is operating, and I'm hoping that they will have offered to share with potential new operators basic key facts, like the likely footfall at different times of the new, and the type of food that is currently being sold. But I'm sure that there is potential for running an even better service based on local food, local food customs, because nobody is going to cross Wales in order to get the same old, same old motorway service station services, which are absolutely nothing to write home about.

I understand that NRW has agreed to keep these three sites open until the end of March, but is that going to be sufficient time to both award a contract in early February, in maybe a couple of weeks' time, and then give them the time to mobilise the number of staff and the facilities they're going to need to take on these services? That's something I'd like to hear from the Cabinet Secretary, to find out whether there's any wriggle room on that, because what we want to do is to ensure that, as far as the tourist is concerned, this is a seamless service; it's under new management, but it's a service that hasn't closed at any point. 

I was pleased to co-submit this motion from Mabon ap Gwynfor here today, with Jane Dodds, as a debate, and I'm grateful to the Business Committee for selecting this. As Members have already outlined, NRW is often debated and discussed in this Chamber, and I think it's right there is a particular focus today on the 'Case for Change' report. I'm also grateful, Cabinet Secretary, for the time you've spent with me, as chair of the cross-party group on outdoor activities, and for your response to a letter that the cross-party group sent you on this particular matter.

As has already been outlined by others here today, there are concerns about the knock-on effects in particular of the closure of these sites on the economy—local economy in particular—of those areas, and jobs. We must remember that the sector that it's most likely to impact is the outdoor activity sector, and it's really significant. It contributes around £1.6 billion a year to the economy here in Wales, supporting around 31,000 jobs.

By no means are those three centres completely responsible for all of that, but it certainly sends a message to the sector as to the value with which it's held here in Wales. And we know—and you know this, Deputy First Minister—that the value of the outdoors to all of our lives, and our health in particular—mental health value in particular—is significantly important. Indeed, I was just reading a recent report that showed that, if there was a 10 per cent increase in people accessing these types of spaces, it would save the NHS £200 million a year alone on physical and mental health needs. So, it is really significant.

Jenny Rathbone pointed out the impact to the tourism industry and to visitors here in Wales, but there's a very real impact to local people in those communities around those areas who like to access those spaces, and we need to make sure that they are properly supported. So, as chair of the Senedd's cross-party group on outdoor activity, I do regularly hear about the great work that the sector provides in Wales, and the sector wants to be the best in the world. Let's make no bones about it. Outdoor activity in Wales is highly sought after and must remain such, and the centres that are going to be closed are an important part of outdoor activity attractions here in Wales.

I'll be grateful to hear from the Deputy First Minister on the points that colleagues have already raised around the transition of these assets to those local community groups, so we don't see that closure of them for that period of time. Mabon rightly outlined the broader issue of asset transfer, and that is something we do need to continue debating and pursuing, but there's a very immediate issue here. We'd all want to see a seamless, smooth, quick transfer of those assets to those interested parties, removing unnecessary bureaucracy that is holding up any sort of transfer, so that those centres can be used very quickly once again.

And the other point I just want to raise in terms of the case for change is the proposed removal of the education team within NRW. They do provide a unique resource and training for teachers and school staff, equipping them with skills to pass on to the children that they support. They also have a role in helping schools in our outdoor trips and expeditions. The removal of that team to me does not align with the warm words I heard from Ministers when I was pursuing my outdoor education Bill here in the Senedd. There were lots of words about the importance of outdoor education. This to me smacks in the face, the complete opposite, of those warm words, and I feel that there's a piece of work that needs to be done to ensure that expertise is not permanently lost from the education team in NRW.

So, I want to align myself with the comments of colleagues in this Chamber so far. We do need to see the quick transition of those assets, and Cabinet Secretary, I’d be grateful to hear your views on how the expertise from the education team will not be permanently lost either. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

As Chair of the Petitions Committee I want to highlight the views of petitioners who have been raising concerns with us about the closure of these visitor centres. We've given significant attention to two petitions calling for the visitor centres at Bwlch Nant yr Arian, Coed y Brenin and Ynyslas not to be closed. Between them, the petitions gathered over 15,000 signatures, showing that strength of feeling, and this is why we fast-tracked a petitions debate last October.

I visited Ynyslas as committee Chair myself to see the work that the staff and volunteers do there, both in terms of conservation and environmental education, and also the safety of visitors to the reserve. It is also an exceptional education and resource centre that contributes significantly to the local economy as an attraction, with 250,000 visitors every year, connecting them to nature.

As NRW's response to the Petitions Committee highlighted, the approach taken at each of the visitor centres will need to be different, with different considerations about the commercial aspects of their operation. The Save our Ynyslas Visitor Centre campaign group in particular are passionate about protecting this asset, which is primarily focused on conservation and environmental education. They've shared a long list of jobs that they're involved with on that site, including protecting the bird nesting area from dangerous and illegal activity. They told me how they chased away poachers on the site. They help visitors to the dunes and the beach, they help keep them safe from the tides, which are really dangerous in that area. They might not know otherwise. Staff felt very frustrated at NRW's reference to catering and retail, which isn't really there. It's just a little machine and a little bench, really. It's more, like I said, an educational facility. Their roles there, in fact, were so much more; they're not catering and retail.

One letter to the committee from an employee said: ‘I can categorically, 100 per cent confirm that the centre staff are the ones who look after the land. They put the protected species lines out and take in daily, and on their estuary and beach-side areas they cut the overgrown vegetation away, they take them away from the boardwalks to make them safe, as and when needed, and they keep the many steps free of sand, keeping them safe. They pick up masses of litter on their rounds, maintaining and repairing as necessary any damage to the boardwalks as well, and they check for and report any illegal camp fires and barbecues.'

Natural Resources Wales has said it is engaging with the consultation process locally, but it feels like there's a difference of opinion with the campaigners about site management at Ynyslas. They do not feel the process is significantly open and transparent, and they found it really hard to communicate with them. And they've been really frustrated. They seem to question NRW's understanding of the staffing needs at the site; they've not been able to get it across to them. And the site needs to remain open for management continuity, particularly through the important spring and summer months, which are busy seasons both in terms of visitor numbers and conservation needs. I'm really concerned that they're looking to close it at the end of March.

I've been told also that NRW are looking to use an outside company for operating their car parks, but new organisations, they need that money to help get them going and keep them sustainable. I'm really concerned that an outside company will be using and taking the profit from those facilities. 

These, of course, are operational matters for NRW, which the Deputy First Minister has recognised in his response to our committee, and we need to be mindful that these are people's jobs and livelihoods that the 'Case for Change' is impacting on. And I welcome that the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, of which I'm a member, will be scrutinising and holding NRW to account, but that's not until March, and these are looking to close at the end of March, or the change is going to happen then. 

So, my questions, really—. The important thing going forward is that they're not mothballed, that there is continuity and also that car parking charges will be able to be kept for the visitor centres to be able to run to be sustainable, and not be taken away and removed by an outside company for NRW. Thank you.  

I call on the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, Huw Irranca-Davies. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm pleased to respond to this debate, and thanks to all Members who've raised their points eloquently, either on behalf of their constituents or on behalf of relevant matters to these important facilities and sites in some of our most beautiful and precious parts of Wales. And can I just begin by thanking everybody at Natural Resources Wales for their continuing work to safeguard nature, our climate and our natural ecosystems as well?

But it is right, as Jenny has pointed out, like all public sector organisations not just in Wales but right across the UK, this has been a very challenging time indeed, including for NRW and its staff. There is no public sector body that's been immune to the impacts of the economic challenges the UK has faced in recent years. It is the inconvenient truth that some choose to ignore, but it is the hard reality that Jenny rightly highlighted. This has meant that there have been very tough and real decisions that NRW has had to make and these are not decisions, I think, that anybody wants to make, but it has been faced with them. 

I'd also like to say that there is significant admiration—we've heard some of it here today—for the professionalism, the dedication and the resilience demonstrated by NRW staff through the process so far; this is taxing. Now, the 'Case for Change' proposals were introduced to support a reshaping of the organisation to address what was a quite substantial funding gap for the coming financial year. And Jenny, you rightly asked why the process has taken this long. Part of this has been engagement with the trade unions and doing this right, the whole case. That needed to be the first part and now there needs to be the right process in terms of the engagement with possible community groups or external stakeholders who have an interest in the sites themselves.

So, upon its board approval of the change proposals, NRW established a change implementation group and it consisted of human resources and business leadership, accompanied by trade union representatives to oversee the restructuring and the associated staff changes. Now, that was important and that was done by NRW engaging with its staff in that process.

I understand there was engagement with trade unions who represent their staff, but would staff who were already working in these visitor centres not be TUPE-ed over to a new organisation? Is that one of the things that's been holding things up?

It's not to do with specifically the staff working in the centres, bearing in mind that I'll come to the point that we're not getting rid of everything that's happening on these sites; it's the retail and the catering. Actually, there's a process going on to transfer staff into other roles, but I'll come to some of the detail of that, and it was important to work through that. And in saying that, NRW has been offering, and continues to offer, dedicated support to the staff who are impacted, and their managers, throughout the process. So, that implementation group has undertaken an and intensive process of matching the impacted staff to vacancies in NRW's new structure, which is set out in the 'Case for Change'. So, this means that staff will be provisionally matched to vacancies in the new structure, ensuring, actually, that the talent and skills we've talked about are retained for the benefit of the organisation.

Now, the next phase is due to start in early February. It'll involve a competitive selection process for roles against which multiple staff have been matched. Staff who've not secured a role by the end of this stage will be offered priority access to express interest in any remaining vacancies, and NRW has made clear that there will be no planned compulsory redundancies. It's important to start with this, because staff were the starting point of this as well in going through it.

As NRW moves through the implementation phase, the restructure may indeed result in impacts on NRW's services. But I just want to reassure Members that the Welsh Government is continuing to work very closely with NRW to ensure it is supported continually, allowing it to focus on delivery of its statutory duties and core duties. And, indeed, we've had previous debates on this, and I emphasise that: this is not something we want to do at all, but the focus has to be on the statutory and core duties. So, to allow me to gain a better understanding and to gain additional assurance, as this goes forward, of how NRW is managing the implementation of its 'Case for Change', alongside other business-critical activities, I have scheduled regular progress discussions with Sir David Henshaw, chair of NRW's board.

That brings me on to where the focus of much of this debate has been: on the decision to cease NRW's delivery of catering and retail operations at the three visitor centres—Coed y Brenin, Nant yr Arian and Ynyslas. My thanks, by the way, to Sam, Mabon, Carolyn and other Members, who've taken the time to meet with me and raise their suggestions and their ideas for the future of these very important sites with new partners, including, by the way, the interest that's been shown from the outdoor sector as well.

Now, NRW's made it very clear throughout its 'Case for Change' that it is seeking partners that are better placed to provide these services at these centres. And it is interesting, and some of those partners are saying, 'Well, we might provide not just the catering and the retail, but we might want to do even more'—community groups and others. That's quite exciting. It's difficult at the moment, but to get there, I think, is quite exciting. The sites will—and I keep emphasising this—remain open, Sam, for those important aspects. I've used every one of these areas for walking and cycling and so on, and will continue to. They'll remain open for the walking, the biking, the play areas for families, the car parking and the toilet provision. Both I and my officials are in regular contact with NRW over the future of the centres, and NRW have assured me, just to be categoric again, that it is the retail and the catering parts of these that are the ones that will change. But I'm passionate about the retention of these visitor centres and the access to these areas for everyone to enjoy for many years to come.

The other part of the process that has been raised and why this has taken some time is because NRW has also had a series of engagement events with local communities. They've been quite well attended as well, and it's currently holding drop-in sessions for those who want to explore the opportunities for the retail and catering functions further, and there has been real interest. So, NRW has launched also an engagement hub to gather comments and expressions of interest for the local community. The hub also, by the way, has a particular useful set of frequently asked questions to demystify the process of this. NRW is very thankful to everyone who attended the events, who've contributed their thoughts and ideas on the hub as well, including how to further enhance visitors' experience—to do more as well.

Now, NRW has responded rapidly to concerns raised regarding timescales and issues that have been raised about, 'Does this mean mothballing?' Well, it doesn't; they've extended, in fact, the current retail and catering functions to 31 March, after which interim arrangements will be in place until alternative providers are appointed. Members have raised issues specifically around Coed y Brenin and Nant yr Arian, and just to say for clarity, for Coed y Brenin and Nant yr Arian, once the offer is fully in place, it'll be advertised—it's expected to be in this financial year coming. And then the other thing that has frustrated some—there is a process NRW has to go through, because it is a sponsored public body and needs to do this in full transparency and full propriety, so it'll be following competitive dialogue as the preferred method, but it is bound by strict procurement regulations—which is frustrating some—for those two sites, but will do. I can see that the time has gone, but I've tried to answer some of the points.

I'll try and draw my comments to a close very rapidly. We have put additional funding, by the way, separate from the 'Case for Change', into NRW because of the way we've been able to work the budget this year. This is not to do with the 'Case for Change'; this will be used to do additional work streams, some of which we touched on yesterday. So, for example, NRW's determination of infrastructure and planning decisions, improving water quality, developing nature-based solutions, and core functions like monitoring, data, evidence, and digital infrastructure to support its transformation. But let me be clear, Dirprwy Lywydd: we remain as a Government utterly committed to providing those opportunities for people to enjoy our countryside, take advantage of the health and well-being benefits that getting outside can bring, and connecting people with nature, as we showed yesterday when we were actually celebrating the successes that we have done. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you very much to everyone for their contributions to this important debate this afternoon. A particular thanks to Sam for co-sponsoring the motion and for speaking so eloquently. We're all aware of the work that Sam does as the chair of the cross-party group that has been raising its voice on this issue, and he reminded us of the importance of the sector to the economy: £1.6 billion, which reminds me of a paper that I recently read, saying that around 10 per cent of all the visitors coming to Wales come because they want to go mountain biking, and that is as a result of the success of Coed y Brenin originally. That's the success of the place, and, unfortunately, that's the failure of the current Government, in letting the place and the community down, but also the importance that Sam mentioned, which is often forgotten in these discussions, of the role of these outdoor pursuit centres, as we look not only at physical health and well-being, but also mental health and well-being too.

I did want to refer to Carolyn Thomas's contribution, who emphasised that there was broad-ranging support for these centres because of the tens of thousands of people who have signed the different petitions, and I was grateful to Carolyn for emphasising the role of the workforce in these centres, particularly at Ynyslas, where we have heard that Ynyslas is reliant on the workforce, which does a great deal more than what's expected of them, and contribute and add additional value to that work.

Now, I want to express great disappointment in the Government's amendment to the motion. First of all, the motion was drafted and was agreed jointly, cross party, very deliberately, in order to reach out to the Government. There is no criticism of the Government implicit in the motion, although I could easily have criticised them. What the motion does is to call on bodies to take positive action for the benefit of communities. The Government time and time again tells us that they have nothing to do with the decisions of NRW, that it's an arm's-length body, but then the Government is determined to defend NRW. We can only come to one conclusion, therefore: that the Government is aware that the responsibility for NRW's decisions falls on your shoulders, and that, ultimately, you're responsible for these changes.

What makes no sense at all in the context of this debate is that you're hiding behind criticism of austerity. Now, you won't get a harsher critic of austerity policies than myself—policies, by the way, that the Labour Government insists on continuing in Westminster—but this motion has nothing at all to do with austerity.

And that brings me to Jenny's contribution. Now, Jenny started by stating and trying to justify the financial position, but the motion isn't about austerity. We're calling on NRW to work, just as Jenny said, with local initiatives who have expertise, who work with local producers, who have an understanding of the area, to work with them in order to ensure the continuity of these centres and that the financial and economic value is locked in to the local economy. And Jenny was absolutely right in what she said, and I can only echo the second half of her contribution on the importance of ensuring that local produce is used and that local people benefit from that. So, I do hope that you will support the motion, because we are looking to do exactly what you proposed—that's what this motion before us today does. I do regret that you werem't stronger on the Government on this, because, after all, the Government scrapped the various environmental bodies in Wales and brought them all under the NRW banner. It’s the Government here that passed the regulations and laws and placed innumerable statutory requirements on NRW, but is failing to properly fund NRW to deal with all of this. There's a term I hear very often across Wales, and that's 'set up to fail'. That's what I hear people say about NRW.

And then NRW hides behind tendering rules, as we heard from the Deputy First Minister. But there is no point hiding behind these rules, first of all, because NRW doesn't have a clear vision of what they expect. The Deputy First Minister mentioned that he was excited by the various different options before those people who want to bid to run these visitor centres. And that's the problem—there is no single vision of what's expected. The companies that want to tender don't know what to tender for. There is no clarity if they are going for the visitor centre, maintaining the routes, or something else. They simply don't know what to tender for, so how can they bid unless there is clarity, never mind the fact that it's very difficult for a new local initiative or enterprise, despite having skills and experience, to find itself on a system like Sell2Wales and to reach the necessary threshold to tender for public contracts? The system is inaccessible and militates against enabling those communities to even have an opportunity to bid. So that is something that needs to be addressed.

There are local companies that already exist that are willing to take that step to run these centres. Look at Caru Coed y Brenin, as an example. They are chock-full of all sorts of skills and what is needed in order to run such a centre; they have a lifetime of experience in this area of outdoor pursuits and hospitality. So, bodies like Caru Coed y Brenin and others need the opportunity. NRW is already working in partnership with a number of external bodies, so there is precedent already, and that’s why I urge you here today to support the motion in order to give local enterprises the ability to make profits from these centres. Thank you.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. I will therefore defer voting on this item until voting time.

Item 6 today is the Welsh Conservatives' debate on cancer services. And I call on James Evans to move the motion.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I move the motion tabled in the name of my colleague, Paul Davies. Cancer doesn't wait, and neither should we. Yet, for far too long, Wales has failed to deliver timely, life-saving cancer care that our constituents expect and deserve. The Audit Wales report laid bare the truth. The 62-day target for treatment has not been met, not once. Despite a 54 per cent increase in spending on cancer services since 2009, failures remain. Workforce shortages, outdated diagnostic equipment and chaotic leadership have created a postcode lottery of care. This is simply not good enough.

The Welsh Government's written statement today, whilst acknowledging these issues, fails to address the scale of the crisis. It speaks of progress, but stabilising a system at failure is no success. Let me be clear: Cardiff and the Vale achieving 70 per cent of patients treated within 62 days in October is better, but the national target of 75 per cent remains unmet. Other health boards lag far behind, with inconsistent performance creating deep inequalities in cancer care. Workforce shortages are crippling. Wales is lacking clinical oncologists, dermatologists, pathologists and key surgical specialists. Our diagnostic capacity is similarly inadequate, with outdated equipment, prone to breakdowns. This is a fundamental failure of planning and leadership. Meanwhile, the Welsh Labour Government's cancer improvement plan is poorly co-ordinated and lacks funding. Even NHS leaders from across Wales admit confusion about how it interacts with other initiatives. This muddled approach is letting patients down.

The Audit Wales report makes 10 clear recommendations, and they must be implemented in full, but that is just the start. Here's what the Welsh Conservatives would implement to fix cancer care and fix our NHS. We would have a long-term cancer strategy. The current three-year cancer improvement plan is a sticking plaster, not a solution. We need long-term cancer strategies that consolidate initiatives, provide clear governance and ensure accountability. Evidence from other countries shows that long-term planning delivers better outcomes for patients.

We would have immediate action on workforce and equipment. The NHS cannot deliver timely care without the right people and tools. Recruitment in critical care areas must be prioritised, alongside investment in new diagnostic equipment. We cannot expect patients to wait because machines are broken or there are simply not enough staff to treat them.

We would implement targeted lung cancer screening. Lung cancer is Wales's biggest killer, and 72 per cent of patients that are diagnosed are at a late stage of treatment, and their options for life expectancy are limited. So, we would implement that targeted lung cancer screening across Wales, to make sure our worst cancers and our less survivable cancers get sorted.

We would put a strong priority on prevention efforts. Four in 10 cancers are preventable, yet the Government's prevention efforts here are far too limited. Tackling smoking, obesity and other risk factors will ease the burden on cancer services tomorrow. We need bold, focused public health initiatives to save lives.

And we will have clear leadership and accountability. While the establishment of a national cancer leadership board is welcome, it must deliver tangible results. Patients and staff are tired of empty promises and endless summits. Leadership must mean action and accountability when targets are missed. A Welsh Conservative Government would make boards directly accountable to the Ministers and chief executive officers of health boards to increase oversight and ministerial accountability.

The Audit Wales report highlights Wales's poor performance compared to other nations. For less survivable cancers, like pancreatic and lung cancers, as I've mentioned, we are near the bottom of international rankings. This is unacceptable for a nation like Wales. Our constituents deserve better, and it is our duty to make sure we get it right. And I give my promise to the people of Wales: if I am Cabinet Secretary for health and social care after the next election, there will be no more excuses and no more empty promises. I will tell you: I will turn it around.

The Welsh Government's written statement today outlined some positive steps, but the pace of change is far too slow. Setting up meetings, producing reports and establishing boards will not save lives unless they deliver real results. The Cabinet Secretary claims progress, but let's be clear: we're still far, far away from meeting the basic standards of care that people expect, and, as I have said, stabilising at failure is not progress.

Cancer services remain fragmented and unequal, with some patients in certain parts of Wales receiving far worse care than others. That cannot continue. Cancer doesn't wait. It doesn't wait for the next board meeting, or the next report, or the next political promise. It is relentless. And our response must be just as urgent. I can say that prioritising cancer care will be a top priority from the Welsh Conservative Government after the next election from day one.

We need a Government that prioritises patients and delivers timely care, not excuses, and a Government that holds itself accountable to the people it serves and does not hide behind bureaucratic structures created by the NHS.

Colleagues, we owe it to the patients waiting anxiously for a diagnosis, we owe it to the families praying for better outcomes, and we owe it to the NHS staff who are working tirelessly, despite being let down by poor leadership and a Welsh Labour Government out of ideas and on its way out of office. Let's demand more today, not just for the people of Wales, but for every person whose life could be saved by better cancer care.

Cancer doesn't wait, nor should we, and I give my commitment and promise to the Welsh people that, on this side of the Chamber, we have a plan to fix cancer care, we have a plan to fix our NHS and we have a plan to fix Wales. The time for change is coming and it cannot come soon enough.

I have selected the four amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. 

Formally.

I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to move amendments 2, 3 and 4, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. As I’ve mentioned many times, like many of you here today, any debate about cancer is one that's very close to my heart. 'I have skin in the game', as the proverb says, because my father continues to live with cancer today. So, when I read reports such as the one by Audit Wales on cancer services, the findings are things that I can relate to and have often experienced.

And the sad truth is that the findings were not surprising at all, as they reflect the experiences of far too many people and their families. And the statistics support them too, with almost half of cancer patients not receiving the treatment that they need within the appropriate 62 days, and no sign that the goal of reaching 80 per cent by 2026 is on track. Targets are important, of course, but it is even more important to avoid giving false hope to patients who are very ill, and unfortunately, that is exactly what they are currently facing due to the Government's failure to convert ambition into positive outcomes.

Wales also has some of the worst cancer survival rates in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, with a recent study showing that, out of 33 comparative countries, Wales is twenty-first for liver and oesophageal cancer, thirty-first for pancreatic and lung cancer, and thirty-second for stomach cancer.      

We also know that there are serious shortcomings in the workforce that undermine the availability and speed of treatment. And while every country in the UK is suffering from a workforce shortage, the situation is particularly fragile here in Wales. According to the latest workforce survey by the Royal College of Radiographers, Wales has a 12 per cent shortage of clinical oncologists, and it is expected that this shortage will increase to 28 per cent by 2028, which is the largest figure in the UK. In addition to this, Wales is much more dependent on locum staff compared to the rest of the UK, with 19 per cent of the workforce—nearly one in five—considered locum staff. So, it's absolutely vital that there is an urgent emphasis on investment in cancer services, especially given the forthcoming pressures resulting from demographic trends and lifestyle patterns. According to Tenovus Cymru, around 230,000 people in Wales will be living with cancer by 2030.  

But what the Audit Wales report also clearly emphasises is the need to marry investment with solid and effective governance foundations—something that has been very apparent as the Government throws money at the front line of the health system, at the expense of almost every other policy area, with any gains from such a policy shrinking from year to year. And, as I mentioned last week, the Audit Wales findings on these issues reflected, almost word for word, the Plaid Cymru report published in November last year, namely the need to define more clearly the responsibilities of the NHS Wales Executive and the Welsh Government in the context of strategic leadership; the need to simplify and better explain the objectives of plans, including the cancer improvement plan, which has already been mentioned today; the need to bolster the practices, transparency and reliability of data-collection systems, including regular data publications by the Welsh cancer registry; and the need for a purposeful move away from short-term solutions towards permanent and consistent investment in the preventative agenda, to reflect the fact that 40 per cent of cancer cases result from life choices in the population.

These objectives are not ideological party-political objectives. Instead, they are practical, pragmatic measures that we heard directly from people who work in the sector. It's high time that the Government accepted its failures and showed the maturity to work constructively on a cross-party basis, in order to improve the results of cancer patients who are let down far too often by the current situation, and showed respect by listening to the specialists and the health leaders who deserve the most attention when they state plainly and clearly that things need to change. So, I'm pleading with Members across the Chamber to support our amendments and to act on the recommendations of our report, because it is perfectly clear that we have no time to lose.

This debate today addresses a subject that affects every community in Wales. Cancer touches us all, family members, friends, colleagues, and neighbours. Ensuring timely, effective care for those facing this devastating disease is not just important; it's essential. Yet despite increased investment and repeated promises, Wales continues to fail its cancer patients.

The recent Audit Wales report highlights this stark reality. Our nation is falling short of its cancer performance targets—a failure that is unacceptable. The human cost of this failure is devastating. Wales ranks among the worst in Europe for survival rates of some of the deadliest cancers. For stomach cancer, we are thirty-second out of 33. For pancreatic and lung cancers, thirty-first. These are not just statistics, these represent lives lost and families grieving. Worse still, the gap in outcomes between the most and least deprived communities continues to widen.

The Welsh Government has pledged to improve cancer outcomes, yet confusion persists. The cancer improvement plan, the national cancer recovery programme, and the cancer improving outcomes initiative: three overlapping strategies that have created uncertainty instead of clarity. Leadership and accountability are fragmented, leaving the NHS and the third sector organisations struggling to deliver meaningful change. Systemic barriers further compound this problem. One of my constituents was referred for further investigation after her dentist identified a suspicious abnormality. However, because her case was classified as 'suspected' rather than 'diagnosed' cancer, she was excluded from the target time pathway. She waited a year, an agonising year, for her appointment, and such delays are not just failures of the system, they are life-threatening.

I recognise that funding for cancer care has risen over the past 13 years, yet workforce shortages, diagnostic capacity and equipment gaps remain unaddressed. Meanwhile, vital charities like Tenovus, which provide front-line support to patients and their families, are struggling due to increased employer national insurance contributions, leaving them £250,000—a quarter of a million pounds—out of pocket.

Barriers to care extend beyond delays. Certain cancer drugs, approved by NICE for some conditions, remain inaccessible for others where they could save lives. One of my constituents found herself in this position. In other European countries, these drugs are available due to larger patient populations providing robust trial data. So, why can't we use international evidence to expedite approvals here in Wales? Life should not hang in the balance because of this bureaucratic hurdle.

Early detection is critical, yet on screening programmes, they are failing. Only 500 individuals in Wales have received lung health checks, compared to hundreds of thousands in England. A targeted lung screening programme for smokers and ex-smokers over 55 could save 200 lives annually. Think of that, 200 people, lives saved by doing this, and especially in those disadvantaged communities. Why aren't we acting upon this?

And finally, the workforce crisis must be addressed. Oncology services in Wales are critically understaffed, with only three oncologists per 100,000 older people in north and west Wales, compared to 10 in London. Pathology services face a looming crisis, with up to 30 per cent of clinical pathologists set to retire within five years. We know they're going to retire, let's now start planning ahead. Investment in AI and automation could help ease these pressures, but this requires commitment to modernisation, not just holding up a poster during an election.

Dirprwy Lywydd, this debate is not just about missed targets or policy failures, it's about saving lives, giving hope to patients and their families. We need stronger leadership, clearer accountability and urgent action. The Welsh Government must set a clear time frame for meeting its failing targets, clarify the status of its cancer improvement plans and implement the Audit Wales recommendations. Above all, patients must be at the heart of our cancer services. This is not just a call for change, it's a demand for justice, compassion and the lives of those who we serve. And unlike what some may have us believe, the blame doesn't rest with our local health boards, the blame rests squarely at the feet of this Labour Government.

I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate today. My constituency of Cardiff North includes the Velindre Cancer Centre and the University Hospital of Wales, so a large percentage of the population of Wales come to the constituency for diagnosis, treatment and, of course, operations for cancer. Throughout my time representing Cardiff North, both here at the Senedd and in Westminster, I have heard nothing but praise for the treatment that people have received at Velindre, and I think this is a true testament to the dedicated workforce there. It's very important that we take note of the report by Audit Wales about cancer services in Wales, and I know that the Government will do that.

But, today, I'd like, briefly, to bring to the Senedd's attention one way that cancer services will be improving, and that is by the services that will be provided by the new Velindre Cancer Centre. It's been a long journey to get to where we are, but last Friday, we had a site visit to the construction site of the new hospital, which is well under way, arising out of the ground, because, of course, the existing Velindre hospital is 60 years old and urgently needs replacing. The new Velindre Cancer Centre presents an opportunity, a huge opportunity, to create a new centre of excellence for cancer services in south-east Wales at a green hospital. I'm so excited for the day that the first patient steps through those doors—[Interruption.] Yes, of course.

I appreciate the work that's been going on with the new Velindre, and it is important for us to have a world-class centre, but with it being a stand-alone hospital, do you not think that this is a missed opportunity to have a co-located new cancer centre? Wouldn't that be better, because that's what the experts say is needed?

There's been a lot of debate about that, as you know, Mabon. There is nowhere it's possible to co-locate and provide the service that we urgently need, and that has been looked into.

The new Velindre Cancer Centre will have eight linear accelerator machines, in addition to the two at the satellite radiotherapy centre that is going to be in Abergavenny, plus one research and development bunker. These LINAC machines are the best in Europe, so the service that patients will be receiving here in Wales will be with the best radiotherapy machines in Europe. They are part of a broader Velindre programme that includes a number of benefits, including using a single provider with a fully integrated system, the LINAC replacement programme to have modern, cutting-edge machines that are fast and efficient, allow for adaptive radiotherapy, automated patient identification, positioning and motion management solutions.

The two LINACs in Abergavenny were delivered to that satellite radiotherapy centre, which is being created in partnership between Velindre and Aneurin Bevan University Health Board. They were delivered in November 2024, which was obviously a huge operation for those of you who have seen these LINAC machines. The additional capacity created by the radiotherapy satellite unit will benefit patients by helping to reduce waiting times for patients who are awaiting radiotherapy treatment, also reducing travelling time for some patients living in Gwent, who would otherwise have to travel to Velindre. The radiotherapy satellite unit will be staffed by a specialist workforce that has been recruited to deliver these new services.

The satellite unit will open in two phases. Phase 1 will see some breast, prostate and palliative patients treated at the unit, and other types of cancers will start to be treated at the unit in phase 2. So, there is great progress going on in this area, and I think it's important that that is acknowledged here in the Senedd today. Velindre Cancer Centre has also become the first healthcare provider in the UK to implement the IDENTIFY version 3.0 solution, specifically for the Halcyon radiotherapy treatment system. This marks a new milestone in advancing cancer care through cutting-edge technology. That is happening in Wales today; people will be getting the most up-to-date treatment available.

At lunch time today, Sacyr, the company building the new Velindre Cancer Centre, launched its innovative community platform in the Pierhead. This will bring huge benefits to the local community around the new centre. The evidence of this was shown by the large number of voluntary organisations that were there celebrating this development in the centre today. But it will also provide a platform to allow more people to get into STEM and into the construction industry. They're taking on apprentices, they're going into schools, and they're teaching STEM subjects. During the event, Sacyr reaffirmed that it's committed to building a cancer centre of excellence. So, I was very keen that, while we're having this debate here in the Senedd, Members are made aware of the new cutting-edge technology, with huge investment that will be available to people in Wales.

It's interesting to come off the back of the contribution from Julie Morgan; it does start to sound like the difference between the haves and the have-nots here in Wales. Hearing the words from Julie Morgan there, you'd think that everything's all hunky-dory, which is clearly not the case for far too many people up and down Wales. And that's despite the hard work of doctors, nurses and other health professionals. It's clear that the mismanagement from Labour here in Cardiff Bay is making their jobs more difficult than they should be. And I'm not denigrating the good work that it sounds like is taking place, as Julie Morgan has pointed out, but it's a very different picture up and down Wales, and that's part of the disparity and the issue that we're debating here today.

It's clear that Welsh Labour have broken the system, where targets are consistently missed and patients are left to suffer unnecessarily. And that's not just us saying that, we're well aware of the Audit Wales report pointing to these failures as well. The Welsh Labour Government have consistently failed to hit their 75 per cent target for cancer patients starting treatment within 62 days. I believe a colleague of mine just said a moment ago that that's never been hit—it's never been hit since that target has been in place. What is the Welsh Government doing about this? What's the point of having these targets in place if they're never going to hit them?

Audit Wales said that there's a continuing failure in meeting national performance targets for cancer here in Wales. We do need to see, Cabinet Secretary, a clear time frame for when those targets are going to be met. Surely that would be part of the fix to this broken system that we are seeing here in Wales. Time frames and accountability, though, it seems, are not something that Labour like to have in place. We do need to see much bolder and more ambitious ways of dealing with these targets that need to be met for the good of people up and down Wales.

Audit Wales, as we know, have provided 10 recommendations in their 'Cancer Services in Wales' report, and some of those recommendations include publicly clarifying the status of the cancer improvement plan. I was interested in hearing colleagues describe all the various different plans and strategies that are in place at the moment, and clearly none of them properly working. But Audit Wales have also pointed to the need for closer working with the NHS executive, Digital Health and Care Wales, Public Health Wales and NHS trusts to see a more comprehensive set of publicly available data on cancer services. I'm sure, Cabinet Secretary, you'd acknowledge that there is a need for that data to be clearer, so that people like you can hold others to account for the performance of cancer services.

It's those recommendations from the Audit Wales report and others that form part of the fix to a functioning healthcare system that can effectively treat cancer in Wales. Sadly, we know it's the leading cause of death in our country, when four in 10 annual cancer cases in Wales are preventable. That's a shocking statistic. Out of every 10 cancer cases, four of those are completely preventable, and it's something that we should have a laser-like focus on dealing with.

We've already heard from colleagues, Dirprwy Lywydd, that the big part of fixing the system is staff recruitment and retention. In my part of Wales, in north Wales, we have around three oncologists serving every 100,000 older people. It's no wonder they're at breaking point. We also know, down the track, that around 30 per cent of clinical pathologists are set to retire in the next five years, which shows, again, the need for recruitment.

Another fix that the Government should be looking to implement is the way that it commissions and engages with cross-sector and cross-border services. We know that Wales is brimming with academics and entrepreneurs who want to introduce their research and who want to introduce their products, their ideas and their services, but I've experienced, time and time again, that far too many of those ideas, that research, those products and those services have been held up by the bureaucratic systems and procedures that are in place. That's a great shame, because there are some brilliant ideas out there and some great products that could be implemented very quickly if there were the real will and desire to do so.

That needs to change. We need to see the system fixed, we need to see recruitment and retention improved, and we need to see an end to Labour's chronic mismanagement to turn this thing around and to fix cancer services here in Wales. To that end, I call on colleagues across the Chamber to support our motion this evening. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

As I mentioned during the Plaid Cymru debate on waiting lists last week, one of the consequences of the current state of our health system is the deepening of health inequalities, which costs our NHS more than £300 million a year and continues to seriously undermine other policy efforts to create a fairer and more equal society. 

Given that it is now such a common condition across Wales, it's no surprise that cancer, in particular, underlines these inequalities, as shown by the striking differences in your likelihood of getting cancer and of surviving cancer. For example, while cancer rates are increasing across the whole of Wales as a result of the demographic trends and life patterns that you mentioned, Mabon, economic circumstances dictate that there is a disproportionate distribution of the impact of these things. 

An individual who comes from one of our nation's most deprived communities will be almost 20 per cent more likely to develop cancer, on average, compared to someone who comes from one of our less deprived communities, and 17 percentage points less likely to survive cancer five years after receiving a diagnosis. More damning still is the fact that mortality rates from cancer are 55 per cent higher in our most deprived areas. The clear message that emerges from these alarming statistics is that poverty literally kills you; it puts its thumb on the scale that decides the length of your life in this world.

When we hear the Government blaming people, at times, for not taking responsibility for their health, I have to say that that strikes a very discordant note with me. Of course, we need to try to keep ourselves healthy, but report after report shows that our health is determined largely by the conditions that we are born into, not our personal choices—the conditions that we grow up in, and live and work in, and grow old in.

Our socioeconomic situation determines the nature of these conditions. The poorer you are, the worse the area that you live in; you are less likely to have a stable job and control over your working pattern and conditions; you are less likely to have access to fresh, good, affordable food; and you are more likely to be living in a home that adversely affects your health. And, of course, all of these circumstances make you more likely to behave in a way that is harmful to your health, by smoking or abusing alcohol.

The two unionist parties have responsibility for decisions that deepen poverty. That's why any effort to improve cancer rates is directly undermined by the 'partnership in power' choices on poverty measures, which includes the failure of this Government to set statutory targets on reducing child poverty in order to drive progress and deliver on the policies that can make a difference, and Labour's inexcusable decision in Westminster not to get rid of the two-child cap and the restrictions on benefits that drive families into poverty.

Inequalities in terms of cancer services also emerge when we look at gender. On average, women in Wales are less likely to receive cancer treatment within the ideal clinical window than men. And in respect of gynaecological cancers, only 33.6 per cent of patients receive treatment within that window. The inevitable result is that mortality rates from gynaecological cancer are higher in Wales compared to the rest of the United Kingdom. But in line with a pattern that is disappointingly common across women's health issues, this issue does not receive the attention it deserves. It's a disgrace that we were the last nation in the United Kingdom to introduce a women's health plan.    

The public health messages on the importance of checking symptoms are being heard by constituents, but the subsequent battle to get an appointment, referral and treatment, and the long delays that occur in that process, too often lead to anxiety, and, in some cases, to consequences that could have been prevented in human and financial terms. My inbox is full of these cases.

Cancer will strike one in two of us during our lives, but your economic situation and your gender tip the scales against you excessively. We have to see a significant shift of gear by Labour to prevent poverty and accelerate the work on eliminating gender inequalities in the area of health. It is inevitable that there will be an increase in these harmful inequalities within cancer care and in people's chances to survive cancer if we don't see action.

It's a pleasure to take part in this debate this afternoon. I think it’s important to be quite frank and honest in saying that the findings of this report are scandalous, and also to be quite frank and honest and put it into context about what we’re debating here. I’ve heard from the Member for Cardiff North about the fantastic things through Velindre that are going on, and that’s great, but what we don’t seem to have is the synergy around Wales, and that investment in the technology in Wales as a whole. I think that’s really important in going forward in terms of tackling these problems and making those improvements reflect across the country, because behind these statistics are real people and real families waiting in anguish, unfortunately. It’s been said a few times that Wales ranks thirty-second for stomach cancer and thirty-first for pancreatic and lung cancer. These are the less survivable cancers. We had the drop-in in the Senedd last week and I met with the groups who were talking about these harrowing situations.

A lot of what I originally wanted to say in this debate has already been said, and I’m not somebody who will just repeat things for the sake of repeating, because it’s been said many times before, but I just want to address something at a Government level. Everything we hear from this Government is about appearance and looking like work is under way to improve these things, but then nothing is ever delivered on. Why are we in this mess? We have a Minister for delivery, but no-one can actually tell us what her job is. It’s ridiculous and it’s emblematic. This is the end of a failing Government. This is 26 years of failures across our NHS systems.

One of my family members, for example, had early stages of liver cancer last year, and do you know what she said to me? She said, ‘I’m glad my treatment was not in Wales.’ She has not got a political bone in her body, and she said, ‘I was glad that my treatment was in Liverpool, and I had some treatment as well in Birmingham.’ She would love to be treated in Wales, she would love to be treated at home, she doesn’t travel very far, but she was actually pleased that her treatment was in England, unfortunately. I shared something this morning about Mike Peters, who’s going through CART therapy—again, that’s in England. It’s in the Christie in Manchester. Why aren’t we at the forefront of some of these innovative technologies? This should be at the forefront of the Government’s ambitions, but yet we’re here again debating another failure of this Government. [Interruption.] Sorry. We’ve got a choice in the next 12 to 18 months about the future of this country. The NHS is broken, Wales is broken, and it’s only the Welsh Conservatives who are prepared to stand up and fix the biggest problems facing Wales. Thank you very much.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, Jeremy Miles.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Following the publication of the Audit Wales report last week and the written statement, I welcome the opportunity to put on record how the Welsh Government is working with the health service to improve cancer services.

The conclusion of the Audit Wales report was that results were improving but that there is a need for better leadership to encourage greater change. I want to be clear that Ministers are setting expectations for cancer services within the NHS, and for the budgets, and Audit Wales has also recognised that the funding has increased. The expectations and standards are set out in the quality statement of 2021 for cancer. NHS bodies are responsible for planning and providing services in accordance with the expectations of the national pathways and the service specifications set out in the quality statement. The NHS executive supports the work of implementing the clinical pathways and the cancer statement, by working with health services in Wales.

We have conducted our own internal audit of these arrangements, and have decided that we need to establish a national leadership group for cancer. This will co-ordinate a host of various activities and functions that relate to improving cancer services across Wales. As I said in my statement, this group will be established immediately, led by the deputy chief medical officer, and it will report to me on progress. As I also said, as three years have now passed since the publication of the quality statement for cancer, now is the time to review its content and to ensure that it properly describes how all the important work that's developed since then relates with each other. We will update it to ensure that it properly describes the role of the cancer improvement plan, the cancer recovery programme and the national workstreams in place related to innovation and research.

There has been some confusion about the cancer improvement plan. It is the NHS's response to the Welsh Government's quality statement. It reflects their planning intentions and we are monitoring how it's being implemented. Dirprwy Lywydd, improving cancer services has been and continues to be a priority, and I was grateful to Julie Morgan for reminding us of our investment in cutting-edge new facilities at Velindre, for example. Every year we hold a national summit on cancer, bringing together all NHS senior leaders to focus on improving performance to meet the target of 75 per cent of people starting first definitive treatment within 62 days, reducing the backlog of people waiting more than 62 days, and, crucially, implementing consistently across Wales the national cancer pathways.

Every month, senior Welsh Government officials, supported by the NHS executive, meet every health board to focus on cancer performance and the actions they're taking to improve it. This is in addition to the architecture of half-yearly accountability for all other services. We also bring together NHS cancer managers and senior clinicians to share service intelligence, good practice and learning.

Performance against the 62-day target has stabilised and there are examples of real progress in some parts of Wales. We know, for example, that one-stop service approaches for certain cancers can drive performance to well above the target percentage, as it does in Wales. Cardiff and Vale University Health Board has achieved more than 70 per cent, as Members have indicated in the debate already today, and record numbers of people receive the good news that they do not have cancer every month, but there is still much more work to do. There is far too much variation between health boards against the 62-day target, and between cancer types.

We fund the NHS executive to provide a package of cancer recovery support, delivered by expert clinicians and programme managers working with health boards to change how cancer pathways and service models work. The initial phase of the work has focused on the cancer types where service improvements are expected to see the biggest impact on performance, in breast, skin, gynaecological, lower gastrointestinal and neurological cancers. The programme aims to improve productivity and efficiency by driving change in how health boards deliver care consistently, and this includes sending people with suspected cancer straight to test without a need for an out-patient appointment. We've invested hundreds of millions of pounds, as we've heard today already, in facilities, in diagnostic and in treatment equipment.

But improving cancer outcomes and survival rates goes beyond cancer services, as we've heard in the debate today; Sioned Williams spoke very powerfully on this issue. We have to focus on prevention too. We have been successful in reducing smoking rates in Wales and the introduction of the human papillomavirus vaccination, for example, will play an important role in reducing and, hopefully, eliminating over time cases of cervical cancer. But we're at a point, Dirprwy Lywydd, where obesity is poised to overtake smoking as the No. 1 cause of preventable ill health. Being overweight and obesity has been linked with 13 different types of cancer.   

On the screening we want to see, in addition to the progression that we've seen for bowel cancer screening, I've asked for advice from Public Health Wales on the implementation of a national lung cancer screening programme to be brought forward by six months, enabling me to take an earlier decision.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I want to close my contribution to the debate by actually welcoming the Audit Wales report. It's unequivocal in its conclusion that we are committed to improving cancer services but that there is more to do, and it has very useful recommendations. I also want to pay tribute to everyone across the NHS delivering high-quality care for the people of Wales. As our population ages, as we've heard today, and the capability of what the NHS can do continues to evolve, it's important to recognise that the sustainability of services will depend on how we can create the capacity to diagnose and treat people within the time frames that we need. This is a challenge being faced across the UK, but I will continue to focus our NHS on improving access to high-quality care so we can achieve the best possible outcomes for everyone facing a cancer diagnosis.  

I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to reply to the debate. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The diagnosis of cancer is the most devastating news ever, and I should know—and I'll declare an interest because I've just recently witnessed with one of my own nearest and dearest having received that horrendous news—and I would like to put on record my thanks to everybody who works, right from our front line staff, in any department of any hospital. The criticism that we have, let's make no mistake, is against this Welsh Labour Government. Despite increased funding, the Welsh Government continues to struggle with treatment delays, limited capacity, a lack of accountability, leaving many patients at risk, and outcomes way below the UK standards.

A constituent referred under the urgent two-week cancer pathway, a critical lifeline for early diagnosis, was told—face to face they were told—that it would be a 20-week delay due to staffing shortages. So, do you get it, Cabinet Secretary? You're told you've got cancer, you think, 'Well, if I read up here it says this long I have to wait', and then you're told it's gone from two weeks to 20 weeks. That is devastating. Worse still, no specific date was ever provided. Those kinds of delays undermine the referral system and places the patient at significant risk. They remain without clarity about when their biopsy or their treatment will even begin. 

James Evans, in opening this debate, eloquently explained about how long-term planning and the need for better and more diagnostic equipment is needed. Too often, we hear of patients attending and presenting with symptoms not once, not twice, not three, not four—sometimes as many as five times before cancer is diagnosed. A rare cancer was eventually identified with another constituent of mine only after intervention after they paid to go and see a private doctor, and the patient referred urgently to Liverpool for specialist care.

Gareth Davies highlighted the scandalous reports we are debating and how treatment in England is seen as far superior to Wales, but people want to have that kind of treatment here in Wales. What is the point of devolution if you can't treat your own patients from Wales in Wales? Twenty-six years you've had to do this, and you've failed.

Delays and reliance on private care are very appreciated, but they're just unacceptable. You spent a 54 per cent increase, in real terms, on cancer spending over 13 years. Much of this funding has been absorbed by rising drug costs and advanced treatments, leaving insufficient resources to expand any capacity. Additionally, automated diagnostic systems essential for efficiency remain underdeveloped. No health board yet has met the target of starting treatment for 75 per cent of cancer patients within 62 days of referral, since August 2020. You're going backwards. Within the Betsi Cadwaladr health board, only 51 per cent of patients are seen within such a time frame.

Wales's cancer mortality rate is the second highest in the UK, trailing only Scotland. Alarmingly, less survivable cancers such as pancreatic, lung and gall bladder cancers are frequently diagnosed at stage 4, where survival rates are the lowest. In January 2024, the less survivable cancers taskforce revealed Wales ranks among the worst globally for survival rates in stomach, pancreatic, lung and brain cancers. Other Members have mentioned lifestyle—oh, Mabon—and the demographic trends, and the work that Tenovus Wales does. The absence of national lung checks for high-risk populations—you know, for smokers over 55—impedes early detection. Under-reporting of cancer patients' ethnicity compounds these challenges, with data captured for only 15 per cent to 50 per cent of patients, despite mandates under the single cancer pathway.

I must thank those who are working in our hospices, but they're doing it against a backdrop of reduced funding. And I have to ask you, it is a well-known fact that, for every £1 you put in hospice funding, by God you get a really good outcome at the end of it. And it does make me wonder, if those people weren't in those hospices that are struggling to provide the best-quality care, you would be picking up the tab for those patients also.

Sam Kurtz on how Wales is failing its cancer targets: thirty-second out of 33 for stomach cancer. He talked about lung cancer as well. Two hundred lives could be saved—prevention being more important. Julie Morgan—thanks, Julie, for highlighting just how wonderful Velindre is, and I would agree with you. They've got not some of the, but they've got the best diagnostic technology treatments and care that we in the north could only dream about. Sadly, not anyone, even my constituents, can access the quality of service that you've been talking about. 'The best in Europe'; it should be the best in Wales. We should be the best in Europe as a country, with our health service. Radiotherapy machines—basically telling us, Julie, if you don't mind me saying, if you live in Cardiff, you'll have a better life chance if diagnosed with cancer. There is an obvious postcode lottery here in Wales in terms of geographic—[Interruption.] Yes.

Are you aware that the Velindre contract is currently being investigated by two Senedd committees?

Well, I wasn't, but thank you.

Janet.

Yes. Oh, okay, Julie.

Are you aware that Velindre doesn't just cover Cardiff, it covers the whole of south Wales, all the Valleys; it covers very deprived areas?

And that really helps me in the north. Thank you, Julie. Best not to compound that one. There is an obvious postcode lottery here in Wales in terms of the geographic spread. It is unkind, it's unfair and flies well in the face of equality. We always keep talking about equality and diversity and things like that in this place. What about true health inequality? Sioned Williams pointed out these inequalities between cancer services, particularly against women. Again, it just, you know—. Sam Rowlands—right to call out the facts about the haves and the have-nots in terms of cancer provision, and talked about cross-border working.

This has been a very honest debate, highlighting the shocking failures of the Welsh Government on its cancer outcomes. You've had 26 years now of a Welsh Labour Government. It is only the Welsh Conservatives who can actually fix the cancer system in Wales. I hope that in May 2026 the people of Wales will trust us, and let Darren Millar be the First Minister of Wales, and let us fix Wales and let us fix our treatment for cancer so that all people in Wales stand a fair chance of beating such a horrendous disease. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time. 

Item 7 is next, the second Welsh Conservatives debate this afternoon, on speech and language therapists. I call on Mark Isherwood to move the motion.

Diolch. Well, I congratulate the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists on their eightieth anniversary this month. Our motion recognises that, although the role carried out by speech and language therapists is crucial, there are fewer speech and language therapists per head of population in Wales than in any other part of the UK, and supports the royal college's call to increase the number of speech and language therapists in Wales and improve workforce planning for the profession.

Having personally battled 24 years ago to secure speech and language therapy for one of my children, I know how critical it is for young lives and life chances. It is now 15 years since the Communities and Culture Committee report into 'Youth Justice: The experience of Welsh children in the Secure Estate', which I was part of. We reported that both the Prison Reform Trust and the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists had told us that at least 60 per cent of children and young people in contact with youth justice services have speech, language and communication difficulties—15 years ago—and recommended that the Welsh Government enabled pilot work to be done in Wales on the potential benefits of speech and language therapy for juvenile offenders, both in custody and on release.

Speech therapy can be used to treat language disorders, speech disorders and swallowing problems. A childhood language disorder can affect a child's ability to learn to speak, to name objects and build complete sentences. Language disorder, or aphasia, can also be caused by brain damage, often after a stroke, with people having trouble forming sentences or remembering words. People with speech disorders have difficulty producing the sounds of speech, saying words clearly, or talking fluently. Children often have trouble with pronunciation, and may have a lisp, or swap certain sounds for others. Speech disorders may be the result of developmental conditions, but psychological factors can also play a role.

Speech therapy also supports people with swallowing problems, where the movements of the muscles involved in swallowing are affected. This leads to problems transporting food through the mouth and throat. The cause is often a disease or disorder of the nervous system, such as Parkinson's disease, multiple sclerosis, dementia, an infection like Lyme disease or tetanus, or a head injury. If food gets into the lungs because of a swallowing disorder, it can lead to life-threatening complications.

There is strong international evidence that the incidence of speech, language and communication needs is much more prevalent in the offending population than in the general population, and, as our motion notes, the most recent statistics from the Youth Justice Board show that 71 per cent of children sentenced in the youth justice system in England and Wales have speech, language and communication needs. This compares to an estimated 10 per cent for children and young people as a whole.

According to the royal college, the most established speech and language therapy youth justice team in Wales is in Neath Port Talbot and Swansea. Worryingly, their 2023-24 annual service report stated that 89 per cent of young people within the service have been identified with speech and language communication needs.

Those who enter the youth justice system often do so from settings where their communication needs have not been previously identified. Only 5 per cent had their communication needs identified prior to their entry to the youth justice system. The implications for a young person with speech, language and communication needs within the youth justice system can be profound. They need to be able to understand the processes they're subject to, and to communicate and interact proficiently with a wide range of individuals. Not only do the speech, language and communication needs of young people contribute to their entry into the criminal justice system, but also, once there, they can experience difficulties with many situations in which they require the ability to understand and retain complex information in stressful circumstances, and often struggle to provide narrative information in a logical and sequential manner. This is important in police interviews and court processes, where misunderstanding can lead to young people making uninformed choices, which may lead to inappropriate admission or sentencing. This is significant, with 80 per cent of magistrates surveyed saying that the attitude and demeanour of a young person influences their sentencing decision to some or a great extent.

In December 2022, the Senedd Equality and Social Justice Committee held a spotlight inquiry on the speech and language communication needs of young people within the criminal justice system. Their subsequent '60%—Giving them a voice' report, published in April 2023, recommended that the Welsh Government should work with local authorities to develop plans for embedding speech and language therapists within every youth offending team in Wales. The Welsh Government, guess what, rejected this, arguing there are insufficient speech and language therapists in Wales—whose fault is that—to embed the profession within youth justice teams.

The Welsh Government subsequently held a summit on this issue a year ago, but the royal college has seen few outcomes since. Only half of youth justice services in Wales have speech and language therapists embedded within teams, with many posts subject to short-term funding from the Ministry of Justice, and there are no speech and language therapists embedded in services within mid and north Wales. Having reviewed recent youth justice inspection reports and youth justice plans in Wales, the royal college states:

'It is clear that HMIP actively considers speech, language and communication provision as part of the inspections regime despite it being a non-statutory requirement for youth justice teams.'

Access to speech, language and communication support for children was a theme across recent inspection reports from Conwy and Denbighshire, Gwynedd and Ynys Môn, and Flintshire. All three youth justice partnerships received direct recommendations to address the gap identified in this provision and ensure that services are provided that assess and respond to children's communication needs. This requires urgent investment and long-term workforce planning, which we should have had 20 years ago, to end the postcode lottery of services across Wales for some of our most vulnerable young people.

As the royal college’s recent 'State of the Nation Report' on the speech and language therapy workforce in Wales revealed, demand for speech and language therapy for children and adults is growing significantly. The average number of people on waiting lists for speech and language therapy has grown by 33 per cent since April 2019. The Welsh Government's amendment to this motion is deceptive and cannot be supported. The royal college has confirmed that the student intake for speech and language therapists in Wales increased for the first time since 2020 in the 2024-25 student intake, and only from 49 to 55, and that, although the Welsh Government's amendment also mentions a new bilingual programme in Wrexham, which is positive, the course has few student places and is the smallest in the UK.

Further, StatsWales data shows that speech and language therapy is not keeping up with the growth of the other allied health professionals, and Wales is not keeping pace with developments across the border in England, where royal college membership data shows that the number of speech and language therapists has doubled over the last decade. To be clear, as I said, Wales is only training 55 speech and language therapists a year across two higher education institutions. However, the profession wants to offer innovative approaches to placements to support the expansion of student places to meet growing demand, and is acutely aware that the lack of availability of other routes into the profession, beyond the full-time undergraduate course, is affecting the diversity of the profession and the ability to meet population need. Last summer, the royal college undertook a survey with speech and language therapy assistants across Wales to understand the degree of interest in undertaking training to become a registered speech and language therapist, and on views on current routes into the profession, with a strong response rate. Forty-seven per cent would consider training as a speech and language therapist. Ninety-five per cent of these said that their preference for completing training would be via an apprenticeship or an earn-as-you-learn model—an option currently unavailable. And 98 per cent said that, if they undertook this training, they would want to work in Wales once qualified.

So, the royal college are calling for the Welsh Government and UK Government to work together to ensure that speech and language therapists are embedded within every youth offending team across Wales; a clear focus on identifying and supporting speech, language and communication needs amongst agencies most in contact with those at risk of offending; sustained increases to speech and language therapy training places, taking account of the need to grow the number of Welsh speakers and the introduction of earn-as-you-learn opportunities for speech and language therapy, to maximise the potential to grow our own workforce; sustainable funding for speech and language therapy services to meet growing demand; and better, more sophisticated workforce planning for the profession as part of the preventative agenda, taking account of the need to meet standards and demand from sectors, including justice.

I move this motion accordingly. It's time to fix speech and language therapy in Wales.

I have selected the amendment to the motion and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for health to formally move that amendment.

Formally.

The amendment is moved; Mabon ap Gwynfor next.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. I'd like to thank Mark Isherwood for bringing forward this debate today, and I commend him for his passionate advocacy for this particular cause over the years. As we've already heard over the course of this debate, demand for SLT services soared during the pandemic and has remained on an upward trajectory ever since, but capacity and resourcing in this vital but often overlooked sector continues to lag behind. This has been especially pronounced in the youth justice system, which the motion rightly draws attention to.

Members will recall that, back in April 2023, the Equality and Social Justice Committee published its report on SLT needs within the youth justice system, which estimated that at least 60 per cent of individuals going through the system had a speech, language or communication difficulty, compared to approximately 10 per cent in the wider population. The latest 'State of the Nation Report' by the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists has since confirmed the total is as high as 71 per cent. We also know that insufficient or delayed diagnostic and therapeutic attention to SLT needs can be associated with mental health issues, as well as being a barrier to equitable access to justice. As was highlighted at the stakeholder summit convened by the all-Wales justice board in the aftermath of the ESJ committee report, a lack of certainty over funding and inconsistencies in commissioning access to services are recurring issues in this respect. And given the strong possibility of further cuts to non-ring-fenced reserved departmental funding, which includes justice, and the fact that the partnership of power has consistently underwhelmed as a conduit for Wales's voice, I am sceptical that these issues will be resolved any time soon in conjunction with the UK Government.

What is interesting about the calls in this motion, therefore, especially considering the identity of the party making them, is that they make a rather compelling implicit case for Wales to take matters into its own hands. Unfortunately, when it came to addressing the glaring shortcomings of Wales's devolved powers, which more often than not leaves us as the poor relation of the devolved nations, the so-called party of devolution had very little to offer in its general election campaign. Indeed, Labour's constitutional vision for Wales has so far largely consisted of disavowing long-standing pledges to reform, most notably, of course, the full devolution of justice and policing powers to Wales. But, however diluted and unambitious Labour's offer to Wales may be, the proposed transfer of powers over youth justice is something that, at least on paper, represents an opportunity to reshape the current failing model so that it is more responsive to individuals with SLT needs.

Now, I completely acknowledge that we are poles apart on the broader question of the devolution of justice, and this isn't likely to change any time soon, but assuming the Labour Party actually intends to deliver on its manifesto commitments—and I concede that there are no guarantees on that front either—we have already crossed the rubicon on the initial question of whether youth justice should be devolved, and we'll shortly be entering the territory of practical implementation. So, on this basis, I hope that the Member will agree with me that the calls in this motion could be more quickly realised once the Senedd does have these new powers over Wales's youth justice system, and that having cross-party support on what should be included within this devolved model, such as statutory requirements to mandate the presence of SLTs in all Welsh youth justice teams, would be a positive first step in this direction.

Let me begin by echoing the comments of the previous speakers and expressing my sincere thanks to each and every single speech and language therapist from every single corner of Wales and across the country. They literally help give a voice to those people who are struggling to be heard, and the work that they undertake day in, day out, has a significant positive impact on many individuals' futures.

I was delighted to join the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists to celebrate their eightieth anniversary earlier this month here in the Senedd. While science has, indeed, improved over the past 80 years, the fundamental issues surrounding the support of those with communication and swallowing difficulties remains sadly unchanged. It is therefore crucial that we properly resource this provision and address the fact that we have fewer speech and language therapists per head here in Wales than any other part of the United Kingdom.

It is imperative to recognise that speech and language therapy benefits people of all ages and from all backgrounds, whether it's premature babies at risk of feeding and early communication difficulties, to pre-school children, of whom one in 10 have long-term communication needs, or the school-age children cohort, who we traditionally associate with the work of SLTs. However, it's not just children who benefit from the service. Sixty four per cent of in-patient stroke survivors experience some level of communication difficulty, and 50 to 60 per cent of head and neck cancer survivors are affected by dysphagia, difficulties in swallowing. 

These findings highlight the importance of providing speech and language therapy for all generations in society. StatsWales shows that the average number of people on waiting lists for speech and language therapy has grown to 33 per cent since April 2019. Whilst the First Minister acknowledged this problem in October, she did not outline any concrete plans for addressing it, by stating, and I quote

'So, there's more to do in that space, but we're very aware that there is a need.'

Cabinet Secretary, I'd really be interested personally to learn what plans are in place to address this issue as the First Minister remained suitably vague about the Welsh Government's approach on this, going forward. Whilst I accept that the number of speech and language therapist jobs here in Wales has increased by 21 per cent since 2019, it still lags significantly behind England, where there has been a 50 per cent increase, and even other allied health professionals in Wales whose numbers have grown by 30.8 per cent. 

Turning to specific aspects of the workforce provision of services in languages other than English, the Welsh Government wishes to see an increase in the number of people able to speak and receive services in Welsh, yet current workforce figures suggest that we are not on track in any way, shape or form to achieve this. RCSLT's 'State of the Nation Report: The Speech and Language Therapy Workforce in Wales' specifically calls for

'Support to improve our understanding of the Welsh language skills of our existing workforce and requirements for the future.'

We need to ensure that the drive to increase Welsh language skills does not hinder recruitment or restrict suitable candidates to only one or two universities here in Wales. Cabinet Secretary, I'd like to know what exactly are you going to do to recruit, retain and grow this segment of the SLT workforce, ensuring that a diverse cohort is recruited, going forward. 

Finally, I'd like to address the provision of SLT services for those who require services in languages other than English or Welsh. As a proud multicultural nation, Wales has a clear need for staff who can provide services in patients' languages of choice. I have spoken about this before, and at the recent event in the Senedd, I spoke with a therapist who works with many south Asian communities. She was one of the very few able to provide services in alternative languages, and her services were indeed in very, very high demand. So, if she leaves her role, it will indeed be very difficult to find a replacement, leaving ultimately her patients suffering in silence. So, Cabinet Secretary, I believe that there is a strong desire to address this workforce shortfall across the entire political divide here in the Chamber today.

If we can address the issues highlighted by both today's debate and the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists' 'State of the Nation Report', we can indeed change the lives and futures of an entire generation of people. Everyone deserves a voice and everyone deserves to be understood and listened to. It is essential that the Welsh Government today backs our motion here and provides the speech and language therapy community with the support that it has been crying out for so long to have. Thank you.

Thank you, Mabon, for mentioning the equality and social justice report on this subject, which was roughly two years ago. There is lack of certainty over future funding, and it’s clearly something I think it would be useful to explore in this discussion.

First of all, just looking at prevention, we know that children acquire speech, language and communication skills, which underpin their ability to speak, read and write and problem solve. Positive cognitive development is strongly associated with a child's success in school and entry into the workforce, so this is a really, really significant issue. Unfortunately, the invention of devices like this phone is a really significant part of the problem, because if nobody is speaking to the baby, this baby is not going to communicate; because if nobody’s responding to the signals that the baby is making, in the end the baby thinks, 'Well, I’ll do something else. There’s no point me giving signals of why I’m happy, unhappy, how I’m feeling, if nobody’s actually listening to me and talking to me.' Talking is something we all acquire and we acquire it through repetition, and that is why it is so tragic that so many children turn up in primary school without the language skills that they need to start to really engage with the education system.

So, on the prevention front, we absolutely need to improve people’s understanding of what a baby needs. If you’ve never had a baby and you’ve never had a sister or a brother who’s had a baby that you’ve been able to play with, you are not necessarily going to have these skills. And if you weren’t talked to in this way, you are likely to have language delay yourself. So, we’ve got to break that cycle of deprivation and ensure that every new parent understands the importance of talking to their baby from the minute that they are born.

Just going on now to the heart of the motion around the jagged edge of the criminal justice system, I think we need to have some clarity on who is responsible for what, and at the moment, that is completely unclear. I share your desire, Mabon, for the devolution of the criminal justice system, but unfortunately, we can’t just say, 'We’ll have it today, and then we’ll sort—.' We need to know what the funding is to go with it and we need to ensure that we are not getting the second-class service that I think we are getting in Wales. We’ve heard in the evidence that we took, there are some parts of England—

Will you take an intervention on that?

Okay.

I think you make a fair point on assurances over funding. Your party's in Government in the UK now, so they can give those assurances, and they can make sure that we get the proper funding. So, will you be making the overtures to Keir Starmer in that regard?

Well, we’ll wait to hear from the Cabinet Secretary. But if Natasha Asghar doesn’t think we have a good enough service here in Wales, then what were they doing, asking the previous UK Government for 14 years to devolve these services to Wales?

England is doing better.

England is doing better, yes. They have dedicated NHS speech and language therapists working in custody suites at police stations, because it can be no surprise that if you can’t speak to the level of your emotional development, you get frustrated. Look at any baby, toddler, who just can’t hack it because they simply aren’t able to articulate what it is they want, and as the child gets older, the problem gets worse. So, there really is no surprise that a child whose language ability is not commensurate with their cognitive ability will become extremely frustrated, and will fail to thrive in the education system because nobody’s intervened sufficiently to sort that out.

So, we know that there are huge overrepresentations, as Mark Isherwood has acknowledged, of people with speech and language difficulties in the criminal justice system, but the question is: why is it that in Swansea and Neath Port Talbot, they think it’s really important to have three and half full-time equivalent days of speech and language therapy in the youth offending teams, and in nearly all the other youth offending teams across Wales, there is either one day, two days, or, in the case of Cardiff, for example, none at all? So, who is supposed to pay for this? And if it's not a devolved responsibility, why is the Welsh Government being asked to fund it? If it's not devolved, then we should be having the same service that they have in England, and we should be having it across Wales, commensurate with the number of people that need serving.

I'm afraid that the amendment fudges who's going to do what in terms of exactly what we need to do to—. How can we mandate the presence of a speech and language therapist in all youth justice teams unless we can get the buy-in of the UK Government? We've got good relationships with the current Minister, Lord Timpson, but it's a very complicated situation that we face because youth justice is not devolved. We want to see much more clarity about the pace of devolution, but, in the meantime, we need to have a better understanding about who's paying for these better services in Neath Port Talbot and Swansea, and why other local authorities—I think it is the local authorities—are not stepping up to the plate for their populations.

Can I thank my colleague Mark Isherwood for bringing forward this important debate? I too would like to wish the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists a happy eightieth anniversary and place on record my thanks to all the SLTs and SLTAs who are working in Wales. As Mark pointed out, we don't have enough SLTs and SLTAs to go around, far fewer per head than any other part of the UK. The Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists' 'State of the Nation Report' pointed to a number of areas of unmet need.

I'll focus the remainder of my contribution on just one of those, the speech, language and communication needs among those entering the youth justice system, which Mabon and Jenny rightly pointed out. It was truly shocking to hear from the youth offending teams in my region that four fifths of the young people who come into contact with the criminal justice system had some level of speech, language and communication needs.

When the Equality and Social Justice Committee conducted its one-day inquiry into speech, language and communication needs in the youth justice system, it uncovered large pockets of unmet need. We knew that there was a high level of speech, language and communication needs among young people coming into contact with youth offending teams, but I was surprised at how high the level actually was. When we undertook the work nearly two years ago, it was 60 per cent of young people in the youth justice system. However, the royal college report puts the figure now at around 71 per cent. We do know that in some areas it is as high as nine in every 10 young people in the youth justice system have some form of speech and language need.

Sadly, the Welsh Government did not accept all the equality committee's recommendations, and despite similar calls being made a decade earlier, there have been little to no improvements in meeting the speech and language needs of young offenders. It was therefore extremely disappointing to see the Welsh Government's amendment to our motion. The Welsh Government have to accept that they've failed to plan for the speech, language and communication needs of the Welsh population over the past 26 years. The fact that the number of SLTs and SLTAs is increasing now is too little too late. The number might have increased slightly, but the need for services has increased massively.

With regard to the unmet need in youth justice, it's not simply a case of passing the buck onto the UK Government, who have competence over youth justice. If the speech, language and communication needs of young people were met, who knows how many would avoid entering the youth justice system altogether. The Welsh Government's youth justice blueprint focuses heavily on prevention and I would suggest that putting resources into speech and language therapy fits the bill. Several longitudinal studies have found that early identification and treatment of SLCN leads to change in the offending risk trajectory, resulting in a lower rate of youth anti-social behaviour and, consequently, lower rates of crime. If we are serious about prevention, we have to improve the provision of speech and language therapy in Wales. I urge you to support our motion and reject the Government's amendment. Diolch yn fawr.

I rise to support the motion before us today, and also to support the recognition of the key role that speech and language therapists play. I had the privilege of visiting the team at Wrexham Maelor Hospital last year on Swallowing Awareness Day, and I realised and understood, as many of us have done, that speech and language therapists do far more than just that, and that the range of services that they provide means they do far more than it says on the tin.

But I'm also excited by the provision at Wrexham University; I know a number of people have referred to that and I am disappointed with how little provision there is, and I do acknowledge and support that. But since 2022, of course, there is a graduate course for speech and language therapy, which has been provided.  

And that's important, of course, as we've heard, because speech and language therapy is a recognised in-need profession, and this does offer us in north Wales an opportunity to grow our own speech and language therapists. Back in 2022, when the course began, there were 10 commissioned places. It grew to 11 in 2023, but last year, it was up to 16 commissioned places. But significantly, the number of applicants has been very high, as well—80 applicants for 10 places in the first year and over 130 applicants last year for those 16 places, and that in itself, I think, tells us a lot about the appetite out there for people to work in the sector. In fact, that degree course has the highest applicant-to-place ratio, making it the most popular degree programme at Wrexham. And not only is there a high number of applicants, but with 70 per cent achieving the score required in interview to be accepted onto the course, they're also of a very high calibre.

And with 44 per cent of those who were accepted onto the course last year being Welsh speakers, well, as we've heard, that will strengthen the provision, which is very scarce across Wales at the moment, not just in north Wales. And that's important, because as we know, the outputs and outcomes in terms of health are much improved when service users receive the care they need in their mother tongue. And this graduate course is recognised as a bilingual, Welsh and English course, and that corresponds to the provision at the other university that offers the same degree, which is Cardiff Metropolitan University. This is all good news for the sector, it's positive for north Wales, but before the Cabinet Secretary gets too excited, there is a 'but' on the way.

We know that demand for services, as we've heard, is growing hugely, and we also recognise that the numbers being trained in Wales are much too small. We need to see, therefore, a sustained increase in the number of training places in Wrexham and elsewhere. There are 16 commissioned places at the moment, as I said, and that is still small compared to other commissioned degree programmes—[Interruption.] Yes, okay, briefly.

Diolch yn fawr. One issue that I've come across with speech and language therapists in west Wales is that private speech and language therapists aren't being allowed into schools to be able to assist with children who require them, because they're not registered to the health board as an employee of the health board. So, if we've got a shortage of staff, as we do, shouldn't we be accessing those private speech and language therapists, allowing them access into schools, if they've got the relevant checks, of course, to assist those children?

Well, I'm sure you can raise that with the Cabinet Secretary. I would much prefer, as I said earlier, that we grow our own and that we retain this service in the public sector so that everyone has equal access and there's not an element of profit being creamed out of the system.

As I said, I would like to see an increase up to 20 places—let's continue on the trajectory—at Wrexham, and a share at Powys health board, as well, as their placement provider, because one individual health board alone probably couldn't sustain such large numbers across three years. But we also need to see investment in other routes into the profession, as outlined, as we've heard, in the 'State of the Nation' report from the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists. It says that nearly half the speech and language therapy assistants said they would consider training as a speech and language therapist, so what can we do to recognise their experiences and their skills, and accelerate their route into the profession?

May I also say that I would join with Wrexham University in encouraging more investment in the bilingual provision that goes around these degree courses? Let's be more ambitious in terms of growing the number of lecturers who can lecture through the medium of Welsh in the sector, and the bilingual teaching materials available too. We will then be contributing to growing the profession, which, unfortunately, has missed out on the necessary resources in recent years, and, perhaps, as a result, has missed out on the recognition and status that this sector deserves. Thank you.

As we've heard today in the debate, speech and language therapists provide invaluable support to people across Wales for a whole range of reasons, from babies to the elderly, and, of course, the young people in the justice system that we're talking about today. We know that demand is growing year on year. The 800 speech and language therapists in Wales are not enough to meet demand, although the point has been made that the number is growing.

Jenny said in her contribution how important it is that this help is given at a very young age. I think it's important to remember that the Welsh Government has prioritised access to speech and language therapists in Flying Start provision, because it's very important that children have that support at a very young age. In the Flying Start provision, not only do the speech and language therapists provide support directly to the children, but they ensure that all members of the Flying Start team are able to identify and support children's speech, language and communication difficulties. Many of you, I'm sure, have been to Flying Start provision and have seen groups of, usually, mothers with small babies with speech and language therapists and other members. You can really see how effective it is. 

Yes, Jenny.

As I've realised that you have expert insight into the achievements of Flying Start, I wonder whether you are able to tell us what the differential outcome has been for families who've benefitted from this additional speech and language intervention, compared with the general population that doesn't have this service.

There's absolutely no doubt that Flying Start as a whole has narrowed the gap and has tackled the inequalities. The speech and language part is absolutely invaluable, because I think it is recognised that this is a very concrete way that you can improve children's life chances, and that is why it is so important. So, I think it is important to remember the investment that has already been put into speech and language provision in Flying Start.

There's been some discussion already about provision through the medium of Welsh, and, of course, the Welsh Government's plan, 'More than just words', includes speech and language therapists. According to the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists, the percentage of Welsh-speaking speech and language therapists is 19 per cent. But, obviously, there is a need to increase the number of Welsh speakers, and I support the points that Llyr Gruffydd made about the Wrexham provision and how important it is to encourage that. I was pleased to visit the Wrexham provision when I was doing the ministerial job, and was very impressed with the way that that was beginning.

To move on to the youth justice system, the important report from the Equality and Social Justice Committee revealed the huge need for therapists in Wales. I know that the Government is absolutely committed to working closely with the UK Government in order to improve this provision in youth justice. I share the words that have been expressed here today that it would be, on a practical level, much easier to do this if youth justice was devolved. That is something that I am very hopeful that will happen—that youth justice will be devolved, and that it will be much easier to deal with these issues. I think this is a feeling, from the conversations that I've had with them, that is shared by people who are working in the field. 

And just briefly to talk about the Cardiff provision, in November last year, I visited the John Kane Centre in Cardiff North, which is the base for the Cardiff youth justice service, to speak to the speech and language therapist based there, because the Cardiff team actually has a speech and language therapist based in the team. Of the 164 children known to the Cardiff youth justice service, 34 were previously known to the paediatric speech and language service, but many of the young people there had not been identified as having speech and language provision, and that's where having a therapist there as part of the team made it so much easier to identify and to give help. The evidence does show that there is significant correlation between the severity of an offence and the presence of an oral language impairment.

We know that young people's life chances are being blighted by not having as much access as they should, but I do think progress is being made. I was told of some of the examples of the work that had been done with young people in the team in Cardiff, and they were deeply moving. I don't have time to go into those situations now, but I think the evidence is there of the huge benefit that this specialist provision gives. Thank you.

The Cabinet Secretary for health to reply—Jeremy Miles.

Thank you, Llywydd. Last week, I had the pleasure of helping the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists to celebrate their eightieth birthday here at the Senedd. I had the opportunity to hear for myself about the positive and significant impact the therapists have had on the lives of individuals. As we’re all very aware, the ability to communicate enhances the relationships between people and helps us to collaborate and co-operate. It’s key to who we are and to our daily lives, and that’s why therapists play such an important role in helping to develop language skills, speech skills and the communication skills of so many adults and children across Wales. But what’s less familiar, perhaps, is their work in ensuring, as we heard during the debate, that people can swallow, eat and drink safely.

Since the establishment of the college 80 years ago, and the health service a few years later, we’ve learnt a great deal. We now know far more about the complex way the brains of those who can speak more than one language work, for example, in creating and understanding language, as we heard in the debate. This was the basis for the decision to fund a speech and language therapy programme at Wrexham University, as Llyr Gruffydd and Julie Morgan have mentioned already, and to keep placements for Welsh speakers particularly. The new graduates from this programme, in addition to those who graduate from the Cardiff Met programme, assist us to deliver the objectives of ‘More than just words’, the framework for promoting the Welsh language in health and social care. Cardiff Met University has been providing education training through the medium of Welsh for many years.

Llywydd, speech, language and communication skills are important, as we heard, in terms of general well-being. Good skills can help to improve the outcomes for individuals throughout their lives. It includes things like academic attainment, access to employment, strong mental health and positive social relationships. Helping children to develop language, speech and communication skills during the early years reduces inequalities for those who are most disadvantaged, and that is why speech and language therapists are part of all Flying Start services, as we heard, and this has been a deliberate decision, as Julie Morgan mentioned.

Our 'Talk With Me' speech, language and communication plan seeks to drive improvement in the way young children are supported to develop their skills. It was developed in close partnership with the royal college and other stakeholders across Wales, and it's enabled us to target investment to what matters most, raising awareness of the importance of speech, language and communication in the early years specifically, ensuring an evidence base and evidence-based methods for identifying and supporting children, and upskilling the workforce, which we've heard today is so important.

We've invested £1.5 million in a bespoke bilingual speech, language and communication surveillance package for Wales. Prosiect Pengwin includes universal screening for speech, language and communication needs at 15, 27 and 42 months, along with evidence-based interventions appropriate to a child's level of need. We've demonstrated our ongoing commitment to ‘Talk with me’ through the permanent appointment of a national speech, language and communication co-ordinator for babies, children and young people, the first role of its kind in the UK.

Our plan is helping to identify young people with speech and language communication needs earlier in their lives. This early, preventative approach will help young people to cope better with the social challenges they may face and deal with any triggers that might spark anti-social behaviour.

This debate calls on the Welsh Government to work with the UK Government to increase access to speech and language therapy in youth justice teams. Young people in the justice system who have speech, language and communication needs can be, of course, referred into NHS speech and language therapy services. The royal college actually has taken the lead in supporting this by producing a helpful toolkit called The Box training, which is designed to give professionals in the justice system the ability to identify communication needs, the skills then to work successfully with individuals who have needs, and know when further referral is needed.

Health boards, of course, are responsible for determining their population's health needs and how best to meet them. Their responsibilities do not extend to funding speech and language therapists within the youth justice teams, and we've heard today, I think very eloquently, the case for a more rational devolution settlement that would align some of these functions in a way that enables better integration of these services with our justice system. But the pilots that we heard referred to in the debate, and services where NHS speech and language therapists are currently working in youth justice teams, have typically been funded through a service level agreement where the NHS is funded specifically to provide additional staff to meet the needs of youth justice services. The model ensures that speech and language therapists have good professional support and training from experienced professional leaders.

Llywydd, the NHS is working hard to reduce waiting times for therapies. Fourteen-week waits for children to access speech and language therapy in Wales have actually halved in the last 12 months, which is encouraging progress. We've heard that the NHS speech and language therapy workforce has grown by about 18 per cent over the last five years, and we've heard about the increase in the number of speech and language therapist training places, and we will look to see what more we can do in the years ahead.

Finally, I'd like to use today, if I may, as an opportunity, Llywydd, to thank everyone working in speech and language therapy services for bringing their expertise and their dedication in providing what is very often life-changing treatment, support and care. Diolch yn fawr.

Tom Giffard to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and could I start by thanking everyone who has taken part in our debate tonight in the Senedd, and to everyone who has spoken on what we have brought forward? And I'd like to wish 'a happy birthday' to the royal college of speech and language in Wales, and also thank them for the important work they're doing to change the lives of people across all of Wales.

As we've heard this evening in our debate, 1.5 million people in the UK have a learning disability, and that number is predicted to grow up to 34 per cent by 2027, and despite 89 per cent of people with learning disabilities needing the support of a speech and language therapist, the workforce is in decline across Wales, with fewer speech and language therapists in Wales, as we heard from Mark Isherwood and Altaf Hussain, per head of the population than any other part of the United Kingdom. We know, from hearing today's contributions, there is a clear consensus, I think, cross-party that an increase in the number of speech and language therapists in Wales is needed, and we need to address those workforce shortages and improve access to that service for those who need it the most. That's why it's important, I think, that the Welsh Government listens, and listens to the calls made here today, but also the calls from the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists, and recognises the importance of our motion to implement that proficient workforce plan in order to alleviate those waiting lists, and open up access to those services to people across Wales.

Mark Isherwood told us that Wales had the lowest number of speech and language therapists in the UK, and went on to explain the further needs and consequences for those with speech and language needs later on in their lives if it's not properly dealt with.

Natasha Asghar thanked individual speech and language therapists for their work and I'd like to join her in doing that, because we know that the investment in those individuals can have transformational effects on the life chances of those with speech and language needs.

I think Llyr made a very important point about the importance not only of having more speech and language therapists, but also those that can do that work bilingually as well, and made a very important point about the number of speech and language assistants who want to go on to be speech and language therapists as well, and how we can improve routes and access.

The problem with Mark Isherwood's very comprehensive opening to this debate is that it doesn't give me a lot of time to close this debate, so I won't be able to mention everybody in closing. But can I just end by reflecting on the Minister's comments, who seemed to think that speech and language therapy services in Wales were kind of hunky-dory, but that comment, I think, was undermined by the Labour Member sat behind him, Jenny Rathbone, who said, and I quote, that 'England is doing better' in this area.

So, in conclusion, Llywydd, and for the sake of our children, young people and adults who have waited for access to speech and language therapists that they so vitally need, I urge all Members to support the work of the royal college and our motion by backing it today.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection, therefore we will defer voting until voting time. 

That brings us to voting time, and unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to the first vote. And the first vote tonight is on item 5, the debate on NRW's 'Case for Change'. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Mabon ap Gwynfor. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 22, no abstentions, 24 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed. 

The next vote is on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, 22 against. That amendment is agreed. 

The final vote on this item is on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, 22 against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.  

Item 6 is next, the Welsh Conservatives' debates on cancer services. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, no abstentions, 34 against. The motion is not agreed. 

Amendment 1 is next, and if amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. Amendment 1, therefore, in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, 22 against. Therefore, the amendment is agreed. Amendments 2 and 3 are deselected. 

Amendment 4 is next tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 10, 12 abstentions, 24 against. Therefore, amendment 4 is not agreed.

The motion as amended is the last vote.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 33, no abstentions, 13 against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

The next vote is on item 7, the Welsh Conservatives' debate on speech and language therapists. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 22, no abstentions, 24 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Amendment 1 is next, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, 22 against. Amendment 1 is agreed.

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, 10 abstentions, 12 against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

And that brings us to the end of voting for today.

We will move on next to the short debate. The short debate is in the name of Mick Antoniw.

Llywydd, after many years of gradual progress, many Welsh communities are now experiencing a resurgence in littering and fly-tipping. Councils are struggling to cope. Residents complain of rubbish dumped in back alleys and street corners, and some of our best beauty spots and hillsides are often plagued with illegal dumping, often on a commercial scale.

The problem escalated during COVID, but, from what data is available, littering levels and fly-tipping have not only remained high, but appear to be increasing. During COVID, I would regularly walk from Tonyrefail, through Coed-Ely, through the beautiful Smilog woods, and despite regular attempts by the local council to clear rubbish, each day I saw new deposits—household rubbish, DIY materials, builders' rubble and ordinary household waste. And one day, to its credit, I remember the council had cleared the entire route. But, within days, it was back to its previous state. As cars drove past, I would also see the window open and rubbish just thrown out. And I could barely walk more than a few metres without coming across beer cans, bottles, fast-food containers, and all sorts of other rubbish. In back alleys of streets near where I live, rubbish regularly appears. I report them to the council, the council clear them, but, within days, the rubbish is back again. And it makes me and it makes all of us angry. This is another form of anti-social behaviour that is plaguing many of our communities, and something needs to be done. So, in the Welsh Senedd, with support from Members of all political parties, we have established a cross-party group on littering and fly-tipping, and we've now held our inaugural meeting with Keep Wales Tidy, Fly-tipping Action Wales, the Marine Conservation Society and other environmental groups, to press for action.

In 2023-24 in Wales, there were 42,171 incidents reported—a 20 per cent increase on pre-pandemic levels. But there were only 102 prosecutions, amounting to less than a quarter of 1 per cent of incidents. The average fine for each of the successful prosecutions amounted to, on average, merely £516. There was a higher level of issue of penalty notices, but even these only amounted to 1,086, a fall of 8 per cent on the previous year and with penalties capped at just £400. Limited council resources are understandably focused on clearance, rather than enforcement. However, it is clear that clearance itself costs councils millions of pounds each year. One interesting piece of data: there's been a 48 per cent increase in sewage-related litter items from 2023 in Wales.

Now, there is, of course, a very valiant fightback in many of our communities by the 20,000 or so volunteers who go out into our woods, parks and streets to litter-pick some 250 tonnes of litter each year. Volunteer groups such as Litter-free Beddau and Tynant, Llantwit Fardre Litter Pickers in my constituency, and those in neighbouring constituencies such as the Rhondda Litter Pickers are out on the streets day in, day out, dealing with the rubbish so many casually discard. It says so much about these volunteers that they keep going. It must be demoralising to see an area that you've cleared one day covered in litter again the very next, but they keep going, and these volunteers need and deserve our help.

Street littering is a growing anti-social behaviour: 83 per cent of litter is pedestrian dropped, mainly smoking, drink and fast-food waste. Fly-tipping is increasingly organised, with the dumping of rubbish by rogue collectors who have been paid to safely and legally dispose of waste.

It should be recognised that some local authorities are indeed taking a proactive approach, such as the excellent use of covert surveillance undertaken by my own local authority of Rhondda Cynon Taf, but overall the figures suggest that, in Wales, the fly-tippers are winning, and we need to change our culture and increase our enforcement. Public education needs to be increased. We need to make it easier for households to dispose of waste. We need to take steps to reduce unnecessary packaging, and, to this extent, the Welsh Government laws prohibiting items of single-use plastic, soon to be extended to disposable vapes, is indeed very welcome. Recycling and moves to create a deposit-return scheme, which would include glass bottles, is also welcome.

However, enforcement needs to be stepped up. The penalties imposed are too low, and we need more imaginative tools in the toolbox of penalties. Those who throw rubbish from vehicles should have penalty points imposed on them; perhaps, after a first chance, an environmental awareness course, similar to the speed awareness courses that you have. Commercial fly-tippers should be at risk of not just penalty points on their vehicles, but they should also be at the risk of a potential driving ban and also vehicle confiscation. It must become commercially unaffordable to be caught dumping rubbish, and catching people dumping rubbish becomes a priority.

The health, environmental and safety impacts of littering and fly-tipping isn't confined to human residents. This is anti-social behaviour, and it takes a heavy toll on wildlife too. Animals get trapped in plastic can holders, suffocate in plastic bags, fatally injure themselves on sharp objects, such as cans and glass bottles, and these are just some of the perils wildlife faces from littering.

In Wales we are planting more hedgerows and woodlands. We are doing more to protect our green spaces, but can we really claim to be pro-wildlife if we do not protect animals from the rubbish too many humans habitually discard? The last Welsh Government plan was in 2015. I think that we do need a new and a more robust plan, and there is no silver bullet, but it is a mixture of all the measures that I have mentioned, and others, which I hope the cross-party group will explore, that offer solutions to this blight on our communities.

The fact of the matter is that we cannot go on as we are. We are drowning in an epidemic of litter and fly-tipping, and it is not fair on our communities, it is not fair on wildlife, and it's certainly not fair on the thousands of volunteers, without whom we would be buried beneath a small mountain of rubbish. We must call it out for what it is: it is anti-social behaviour, and we have to expose the culprits, but we also have to change our own culture in society. Diolch, Llywydd.

I'd like to thank Mick for bringing forward this short debate today. Litter is an invasive species harming our countryside. I don't understand, if people brought it for a walk, why don't they just take it home with them? Why throw it out of a car? Who do they expect is going to pick it up—the litter fairy? I agree they need to be deterred with stronger punishments, such as the removal of licences or vehicles. Litter harms wildlife, poisons our rivers and oceans and, in turn, ourselves with microplastics. An increasing amount of takeaways and on-the-go food has made it worse, with an increasing amount of on-the-go dumping. Habits need to be changed and stopped.

The Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice to reply to the debate. Jane Hutt.

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I thank Mick Antoniw for tabling this important debate today, and to Carolyn Thomas for your contribution as well? I'm responding on behalf of the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, who is unable to be with us this afternoon, but I would say this is very much a cross-Government issue, and I certainly am pleased to be responding as Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, because I do think this is social justice as well as environmental and economic. It covers all our Government responsibilities.

And I think, also, can we start by congratulating you for establishing this cross-party group? I understand that you held your first meeting on 14 January, and it is a cross-party group, and you've got Keep Wales Tidy as your secretariat, and I'm sure it will have a very big impact, and also the fact that you've got organisations like the Welsh Local Government Association and Fly-tipping Action Wales engaging with you. So, we look forward to seeing the impact of that cross-party group. I think the debate will help build on the profile of that group and that work.

But it is also, as has been said by the Member—. There's no doubt that littering and fly-tipping are completely unacceptable, and there is no excuse for these types of behaviours. It harms our wildlife—as you said, Carolyn—damages our environment, and blights our communities. Litter and fly-tipping impact local economies, with neglected areas deterring inward investment, discouraging tourism, and when products are thrown away like this, as you've said, valuable materials are not then recycled or reused, and we need to acknowledge that. They're lost from the waste stream. And there's the cost of removing the waste itself—a huge cost. It's an unnecessary and completely avoidable financial burden on local authorities and others. And you've given the examples of how local authorities reach out and they take action, and it's costly action, and then, of course, again the litter is thrown away and they have to repeat that action.

No-one benefits from rubbish in our streets and countryside, but everyone stands to gain from a clean and safe environment, and that's why tackling the problem is not just for Government. We all have a role to play in ending a throwaway culture. So, it is collectively that we need to act. We're brilliant in the way that we act collectively as citizens of Wales in terms of our recycling, making us a global leader. I always think it's so good when you drive along the streets and you see everyone getting their things ready to put out. This is the collective action that we need. But it's a collective action that does involve Government and also producers. We need to ensure that we look at unnecessary packaging and single-use products, and we need to see how we as a society can use and dispose of these products. So, a more circular economy is a key goal for the Welsh Government, and it's why we continue to focus on the three Rs—reduce, reuse, recycle—as integral elements. And we do believe this can be done.

Initial evidence of our successes to date and Wales-wide momentum is here and is increasing. Since devolution, Wales has transferred from a nation that recycled less than 5 per cent of our municipal waste, as I've said already, to the world leaders we are today. We're the second-best nation in the world at recycling, and that's due to the contributions of people and businesses right across Wales. It shows change is entirely possible when everyone comes together to achieve a common goal for the benefit of the environment. And, of course, as a Government, we want to make it easier for people to make the right decisions and come on this journey with us. To help achieve this, we have already introduced regulations to remove environmentally damaging single-use products off the market, with bans on several commonly littered single-use plastic products and single-use vapes, and we are committed to taking action to prevent litter at the source. We will be establishing a new extended producer responsibility scheme for packaging, and that means that, in line with the principle that the polluter pays, manufacturers will now be responsible for paying for the management of their packaging when it's littered, and we'll support litter prevention campaigns.

Will you take an intervention? I wonder when you think that the ban on single-use vapes is going to come in, because not only are they a horrendous eyesore, but they also cause fires when they're put into the incineration system.

Yes, well, we await that. Just in terms of when it's likely to come in, I'll just see whether I can give you that answer now. We laid the Environmental Protection (Single-use Vapes) (Wales) Regulations 2024 on 19 November, which was agreed by the Senedd on 10 December. The bans will begin on 1 June 2025 and will align with bans elsewhere in the world. So, I'm glad that I've managed to get that on the record today. 

I've mentioned the extended producer responsibility scheme for packaging and we're also rolling out a nationwide deposit-return scheme for beverage containers, which will help to drive recycling rates even higher and encourage responsible disposal. But we can't just have legislation in isolation. We do need to harness the energy and enthusiasm of people across Wales who are taking action. You've mentioned the environmental groups, the local communities, the volunteers. So, a further £1.2 million in grant funding has gone to Keep Wales Tidy to help with this work, because they work so closely with our communities, tirelessly working to improve their local environment. Last year our funding enabled Keep Wales Tidy to support over 2,500 people working selflessly every month as volunteers to improve their local environment. And as the Minister responsible for the voluntary sector and volunteers, I really applaud the efforts of our volunteers. You mentioned the 20,000, and I'm sure that that's a minimum across Wales. There was a ceremony in November to give thanks to Keep Wales Tidy—it was an awards ceremony. And apparently, at this ceremony, there was an award for a gentleman who, at the age of 90, still enjoyed the difference that he could make to his community by regularly litter picking. That, certainly, I'm sure we would want to praise and acknowledge today. 

But, of course, that volunteers' support is not a substitute for local authority services. It's a means of achieving longer-lasting results, that cultural change that we need where people are encouraged to develop a sense of ownership and pride in their local communities. But we do need to recognise that more needs to be done to tackle litter from our food-on-the-go culture, blighting roadsides and streets, and we're working with Keep Wales Tidy and fast-food businesses to develop and introduce a voluntary code of practice for the fast-food and takeaway sector. But other initiatives include the ongoing UK-wide voluntary extended producer scheme for chewing gum. This brings the Governments of all four nations together, and the major chewing gum producers, to provide grant funding for local authorities to clean up gum litter. And it's now entering its fourth year, with local authorities benefiting from over £350,000 in funding to remove chewing gum staining and litter from Welsh high streets. 

Just turning to fly-tipping, Llywydd, over the past three years, we've doubled the level of funding to Natural Resources Wales for the Fly-tipping Action Wales programme. And it does mean that the team is able to use its expertise, share best practice, provide valuable training and guidance for local authorities and local communities. There are two new enforcement officer posts in the team and direct support to local authorities investigating fly-tipping incidents throughout Wales. And there have been some very positive results from this approach, helping local authorities tackle those fly-tipping hotspots that we know in Wales—a recent successful prosecution of a notorious fly-tipping offender who tipped multiple times across various sites in Newport, Monmouthshire and Torfaen. So, again, Natural Resources Wales is playing its part as well. 

But finally to say that raising awareness is the key tool that we are using to help to change attitudes and ensure that these activities become socially unacceptable. We continue to provide support for Fly-tipping Action Wales's award winning, It's your Duty to Care campaign, which highlights the responsibilities of householders when passing their waste to others for disposal. It is with combined support—volunteers, work with local authorities, backing for local authorities, Fly-tipping Action Wales and Keep Wales Tidy—that we can continue to make a difference. Our ambition has always been for a litter and fly-tipping-free Wales. I'm sure that's going to be the goal of your cross-party group: a litter and fly-tipping-free Wales. We can achieve this. It won't be resolved overnight, but we do need to take responsibility for disposing of our waste responsibly, and, as a Government, we will work closely with our partners, give support to our volunteers, community groups, and also recognise that this is responding to our climate and nature emergencies.

So, can we finish by reaffirming our thanks to the thousands of volunteers across the country who give up their time to make their communities a better place to live, work and visit, and thank our key partners for their support in delivering and progressing this work, especially our local authorities, and thank the Member, Mick Antoniw MS, for bringing forward and setting up this cross-party group? Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much to the Cabinet Secretary, and thank you for that short debate. That brings today's proceedings to a close.