Y Cyfarfod Llawn
Plenary
31/01/2024Cynnwys
Contents
Yn y fersiwn ddwyieithog, mae’r golofn chwith yn cynnwys yr iaith a lefarwyd yn y cyfarfod. Mae’r golofn dde yn cynnwys cyfieithiad o’r areithiau hynny.
In the bilingual version, the left-hand column includes the language used during the meeting. The right-hand column includes a translation of those speeches.
Cyfarfu'r Senedd yn y Siambr a thrwy gynhadledd fideo am 13:30 gyda'r Llywydd (Elin Jones) yn y Gadair.
The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.
Croeso, bawb, i'r Cyfarfod Llawn. Yr eitem gyntaf ar ein hagenda ni y prynhawn yma fydd y cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog Cyfiawnder Cymdeithasol a'r Prif Chwip, ac mae'r cwestiwn cyntaf gan Mark Isherwood.
Welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda this afternoon will be questions to the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip, and the first question is from Mark Isherwood.
1. Sut y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn sicrhau bod Deddf Cydraddoldeb 2010 yn cael ei rhoi ar waith er budd pobl anabl yng Nghymru? OQ60590
1. How does the Welsh Government ensure that the Equality Act 2010 is implemented to benefit disabled people in Wales? OQ60590
Thank you for your question. The Equality and Human Rights Commission is the UK-wide statutory body whose role it is to promote and enforce human rights and non-discrimination laws with a focus on the non-devolved Equality Act 2010. It works independently and operates across England, Scotland and Wales, where each administration is also subject to the Act.
Diolch am eich cwestiwn. Y Comisiwn Cydraddoldeb a Hawliau Dynol yw’r corff statudol ar gyfer y DU gyfan sydd â'r rôl o hyrwyddo a gorfodi deddfau gwrth-wahaniaethu a hawliau dynol, gyda ffocws ar Ddeddf Cydraddoldeb 2010, sydd heb ei datganoli. Mae’n gweithio’n annibynnol ac yn gweithredu ar draws Cymru, Lloegr, a'r Alban, lle mae pob gweinyddiaeth hefyd yn ddarostyngedig i'r Ddeddf.
Thank you. The Equality and Human Rights Commission has very limited resource to enforce or take legal action on individual cases. But the Equality Act states that direct discrimination occurs when people with protected characteristics, including disability, are treated less favourably than others.
The National Deaf Children's Society Cymru has warned that falling numbers of teachers of the deaf, and other issues with the Welsh Government's additional learning needs reforms, is hindering deaf pupils. I raised this with you in responding to your 5 December statement on the International Day of Disabled People, but your reply didn't address this.
When I raised this with the education Minister, he highlighted the investment over the past three years to support postgraduate training for local authority-based teachers of learners with sensory impairment. The National Deaf Children's Society therefore spoke to the services on the ground, which told them that this is being used to keep the level of teachers of the deaf workforce the same, as opposed to expanding it, although one in five have left the profession since 2011. They were also told that some of the funding was more targeted at additional learning needs co-ordinators and school staff to help build deaf awareness rather then extend provision, which has not provided the scope to fully grow the profession nor support deaf children in Wales.
So, what measurable action do you propose to address this, where deafness is not a learning difficulty, but deaf children are being disabled by the continuing inequity in outcome, and where the gap between deaf children and their hearing peers risks becoming even wider in breach of the Equality Act?
Diolch. Adnoddau cyfyngedig iawn sydd gan y Comisiwn Cydraddoldeb a Hawliau Dynol i orfodi neu gymryd camau cyfreithiol ar achosion unigol. Ond mae'r Ddeddf Cydraddoldeb yn datgan bod gwahaniaethu uniongyrchol yn digwydd pan fo pobl â nodweddion gwarchodedig, gan gynnwys anabledd, yn cael eu trin yn llai ffafriol nag eraill.
Mae Cymdeithas Genedlaethol Plant Byddar Cymru wedi rhybuddio bod niferoedd llai o athrawon plant byddar, a phroblemau eraill gyda diwygiadau Llywodraeth Cymru i anghenion dysgu ychwanegol, yn amharu ar ddisgyblion byddar. Codais hyn gyda chi wrth ymateb i’ch datganiad ar 5 Rhagfyr ar Ddiwrnod Rhyngwladol Pobl Anabl, ond ni chyfeirioch chi at hyn yn eich ymateb.
Pan godais hyn gyda’r Gweinidog addysg, tynnodd sylw at y buddsoddiad, dros y tair blynedd diwethaf, i gefnogi hyfforddiant ôl-raddedig ar gyfer athrawon yn yr awdurdodau lleol ar gyfer dysgwyr ag amhariad ar y synhwyrau. Siaradodd y Gymdeithas Genedlaethol i Blant Byddar, felly, â’r gwasanaethau ar lawr gwlad, a ddywedodd wrthynt fod hyn yn cael ei ddefnyddio i gadw nifer athrawon plant byddar ar yr un lefel, yn hytrach na’i ehangu, er bod un o bob pump wedi gadael y proffesiwn ers 2011. Dywedwyd wrthynt hefyd fod rhywfaint o'r cyllid wedi'i dargedu i raddau mwy at gydlynwyr anghenion dysgu ychwanegol a staff ysgolion i helpu i godi ymwybyddiaeth o fyddardod yn hytrach nag ymestyn y ddarpariaeth, ac nid yw hynny wedi darparu'r cwmpas i dyfu'r proffesiwn yn llawn na chefnogi plant byddar Cymru.
Felly, pa gamau mesuradwy a argymhellir gennych i fynd i'r afael â hyn, lle nad yw byddardod yn anhawster dysgu, ond lle mae plant byddar yn cael eu hanablu gan yr annhegwch parhaus o ran canlyniadau, a lle mae'r bwlch rhwng plant byddar a'u cyfoedion sy'n gallu clywed mewn perygl o dyfu'n ehangach fyth, yn groes i'r Ddeddf Cydraddoldeb?
Thank you, Mark Isherwood, and I do agree with you—it's universally recognised that the Equality and Human Rights Commission is heavily underfunded and that it doesn't have the resources to fully enforce the protections offered by the Equality Act.
But, clearly, we have our responsibilities, and this is very much across Government, as you would recognise, in terms of the role and responsibilities of the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, particularly in response to the important questions you've raised. There are ongoing discussions and scrutiny about the needs of deaf children in education and additional learning needs. So, I will make sure that I take this back to the disability rights taskforce's children and young people's work stream—this is under way. As you know, the disability rights taskforce, which I co-chair, is responding to 'Locked out: liberating disabled people's lives and rights in Wales beyond COVID-19' report, very much based on the understanding of the social model of disability and co-produced with disabled people, including children and young people. So, I will take this back to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, but also to that work stream.
Diolch, Mark Isherwood, ac rwy'n cytuno â chi—cydnabyddir gan bawb fod y Comisiwn Cydraddoldeb a Hawliau Dynol yn cael ei danariannu'n ddifrifol, ac nad oes ganddo'r adnoddau i orfodi'r amddiffyniadau a gynigir gan y Ddeddf Cydraddoldeb yn llawn.
Ond yn amlwg, mae gennym ein cyfrifoldebau, ac mae a wnelo hyn â'r Llywodraeth gyfan, fel y byddech yn cydnabod, o ran rôl a chyfrifoldebau Gweinidog y Gymraeg ac Addysg, yn enwedig mewn ymateb i'r cwestiynau pwysig a godwyd gennych. Ceir trafodaethau a chraffu parhaus ynghylch anghenion plant byddar mewn addysg ac anghenion dysgu ychwanegol. Felly, byddaf yn sicr o fynd â'r mater yn ôl at ffrwd waith plant a phobl ifanc y tasglu hawliau pobl anabl—mae hyn ar y gweill. Fel y gwyddoch, mae’r tasglu hawliau pobl anabl yr wyf yn ei gyd-gadeirio yn ymateb i adroddiad 'Drws ar Glo: Datgloi bywydau a hawliau pobl anabl yng Nghymru ar ôl COVID-19’, sy'n seiliedig ar ddealltwriaeth o’r model cymdeithasol o anabledd ac wedi ei gydgynhyrchu gyda phobl anabl, gan gynnwys plant a phobl ifanc. Felly, fe af â'r mater hwn yn ôl at Weinidog y Gymraeg ac Addysg, ond hefyd at y ffrwd waith honno.
2. Pa gamau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu cymryd i wella cynhwysiant digidol yng Ngorllewin Caerfyrddin a De Sir Benfro? OQ60612
2. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve digital inclusion in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire? OQ60612
Thank you for your question. Tackling digital exclusion is a social justice and equalities priority, and we are committed to ensuring citizens are digitally confident to make informed decisions on how they use and engage with digital means, and our latest roll-out has provided access to full fibre broadband to 1,409 premises in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire.
Diolch am eich cwestiwn. Mae mynd i’r afael ag allgáu digidol yn flaenoriaeth o ran cyfiawnder cymdeithasol a chydraddoldeb, ac rydym wedi ymrwymo i sicrhau bod dinasyddion yn ddigidol hyderus i wneud penderfyniadau gwybodus ynglŷn â sut maent yn defnyddio ac yn ymwneud â dulliau digidol, ac mae ein gwaith cyflwyno diweddaraf wedi darparu mynediad at fand eang ffeibr llawn i 1,409 o adeiladau yng Ngorllewin Caerfyrddin a De Sir Benfro.
Thank you, Minister, and I'm grateful for your commitment that digital inclusion is a social justice issue, because digital inclusion involves proficient and equitable access to, and use of, information and communication technologies that enable participation in modern, social and economic life—basically, the ability to use a computer for day-to-day tasks. Now, the digital world spans across virtually all industries and remits, including the likes of education, health and social services. Yet, one industry where digital inclusion is becoming more important, and possibly under the radar, is within the agricultural industry. Now, the sustainable farming scheme and future farm support will rely heavily on farmers collecting and inputting data into websites, including mapping. Now, the average age of a Welsh farmer is around 59 years of age, but, knowing age is no barrier to learning, what engagement have you had, as Minister, with the rural affairs Minister, and, most importantly, with the sector itself, to ensure that our farmers have access to training and skills so that they can use with ease the necessary digital agricultural platforms to run their business and maintain their livelihoods? Diolch, Llywydd.
Diolch, Weinidog, ac rwy’n ddiolchgar am eich ymrwymiad fod cynhwysiant digidol yn fater cyfiawnder cymdeithasol, gan fod cynhwysiant digidol yn ymwneud â mynediad hyfedr a theg at, a defnydd o, dechnoleg gwybodaeth a chyfathrebu sy’n galluogi cyfranogiad mewn bywyd modern, cymdeithasol ac economaidd—yn y bôn, y gallu i ddefnyddio cyfrifiadur ar gyfer tasgau o ddydd i ddydd. Nawr, mae'r byd digidol yn rhychwantu bron bob diwydiant a chylch gwaith, gan gynnwys meysydd addysg, iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Fodd bynnag, un diwydiant lle mae cynhwysiant digidol yn dod yn bwysicach, ac o dan y radar, o bosibl, yw yn y diwydiant amaethyddol. Nawr, bydd y cynllun ffermio cynaliadwy a chymorth i ffermydd yn y dyfodol yn dibynnu’n fawr ar ffermwyr yn casglu ac yn mewnbynnu data i wefannau, gan gynnwys mapio. Nawr, oedran cyfartalog ffermwr yng Nghymru yw oddeutu 59 mlwydd oed, ond gan wybod nad yw oedran yn rhwystr i ddysgu, pa ymgysylltiad a gawsoch, fel Gweinidog, â’r Gweinidog materion gwledig, ac yn bwysicaf oll, â’r sector ei hun, i sicrhau bod ein ffermwyr yn cael mynediad at hyfforddiant a sgiliau fel y gallant ddefnyddio'r platfformau amaethyddol digidol angenrheidiol yn rhwydd i redeg eu busnes a chynnal eu bywoliaeth? Diolch, Lywydd.
Thank you for raising that really important point about the needs of farmers in terms of digital inclusion in the agricultural industry, as you say, in terms of the profile. Just looking at the statistics, 93 per cent of adults in Wales are now using the internet, compared to just 66 per cent in 2010. But there is an age profile, and it is about skills, isn't it, and it's about access to skills as well. So, this is being addressed by the 'Digital strategy for Wales', and that's a programme for government commitment. It makes clear that, for people who can't, or decide not to, participate digitally, we have to find ways in which to access them, to increase their skills. And I just have to say that, since July 2019, our digital inclusion in health programme, for example, has supported 18,216 people in Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire with motivation and basic digital skills needed to use the internet effectively. And we now are developing a minimum digital living standard for Wales. But this has to ensure that we do reach out to business and industry—the agriculture industry. I will discuss this with the Minister for rural affairs, recognising of course that Farming Connect, and all those engaged in the sustainable farming scheme and the implementation and delivery of it, will be up to speed on all of this. And I know we can report back to you on the developments, particularly in relation to supporting the farming community with digital skills.
Diolch am godi’r pwynt gwirioneddol bwysig hwnnw am anghenion ffermwyr o ran cynhwysiant digidol yn y diwydiant amaethyddol, fel y dywedwch, o ran y proffil. O edrych ar yr ystadegau, mae 93 y cant o oedolion yng Nghymru bellach yn defnyddio’r rhyngrwyd, o gymharu â 66 y cant yn unig yn 2010. Ond mae proffil oedran yma, ac mae'n ymwneud â sgiliau, onid yw, ac mae a wnelo â mynediad at sgiliau hefyd. Felly, mae'r 'Strategaeth Ddigidol i Gymru' yn mynd i'r afael â hyn, ac mae hynny'n ymrwymiad yn y rhaglen lywodraethu. Mae’n nodi'n glir, i bobl na allant, neu sy’n penderfynu peidio â chymryd rhan yn ddigidol, fod rhaid inni ddod o hyd i ffyrdd o gael mynediad atynt, er mwyn cynyddu eu sgiliau. Ac mae'n rhaid imi ddweud, ers mis Gorffennaf 2019, fod ein rhaglen cynhwysiant digidol ym maes iechyd, er enghraifft, wedi cefnogi 18,216 o bobl yn sir Gaerfyrddin a sir Benfro gyda'r cymhelliant a'r sgiliau digidol sylfaenol sydd eu hangen i ddefnyddio'r rhyngrwyd yn effeithiol. Ac rydym bellach yn datblygu safon byw digidol gofynnol i Gymru. Ond mae'n rhaid i hyn sicrhau ein bod yn estyn allan at fusnesau a diwydiant—y diwydiant amaethyddol. Byddaf yn trafod hyn gyda’r Gweinidog materion gwledig, gan gydnabod wrth gwrs y bydd Cyswllt Ffermio, a phawb sy’n ymwneud â’r cynllun ffermio cynaliadwy a’r gwaith o'i redeg a'i roi ar waith yn ymwybodol o hyn oll. A gwn y gallwn adrodd yn ôl i chi ar y datblygiadau, yn enwedig mewn perthynas â chefnogi'r gymuned ffermio â sgiliau digidol.
Cwestiynau nawr gan lefarwyr y pleidiau. Llefarydd y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig, Mark Isherwood.
Questions now from party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservatives' spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.
Diolch, Llywydd. For many years, service providers and researchers across the sector have been calling for a coherent and integrated Welsh benefits system for all the means-tested benefits the Welsh Government is responsible for. Last week, you launched the Welsh Government's benefits charter, telling us it aims to increase take-up of Welsh benefits, enabling more people in Wales to take up their entitlement, and identify and remove the barriers that prevent people from claiming their entitlements. However, the Welsh Local Government Association then issued a press release that made clear that, far from being the launch of a Welsh benefits system, local authorities had only agreed to work with the Welsh Government to take action towards developing a consistent Welsh benefits system. So, just as the Children's Commissioner for Wales stated in the context of your child poverty strategy, the lack of detail on actions, timescales and deliverables again means that there is no way of holding the Welsh Government to account. Questioning you on the child poverty strategy here last week, I therefore asked what is your timescale for the introduction of a Welsh benefits system, and what targets will be in place to measure progress. You failed to answer. Will you do so now?
Diolch, Lywydd. Ers blynyddoedd lawer, mae darparwyr gwasanaethau ac ymchwilwyr ar draws y sector wedi bod yn galw am system fudd-daliadau gydlynol ac integredig i Gymru ar gyfer yr holl fudd-daliadau sy'n dibynnu ar brawf modd y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn gyfrifol amdanynt. Yr wythnos diwethaf, fe wnaethoch lansio siarter budd-daliadau Llywodraeth Cymru, a dweud wrthym mai ei nod yw cynyddu’r nifer sy’n hawlio budd-daliadau yng Nghymru, gan alluogi mwy o bobl yng Nghymru i fanteisio ar yr hyn y mae ganddynt hawl iddo, a nodi a chael gwared ar y rhwystrau sy’n atal pobl rhag hawlio'r hyn sy'n ddyledus iddynt. Fodd bynnag, cyhoeddodd Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru ddatganiad i’r wasg wedyn, a oedd yn nodi’n glir fod hyn ymhell o fod yn lansiad system fudd-daliadau Cymru, a bod awdurdodau lleol ond wedi cytuno i weithio gyda Llywodraeth Cymru er mwyn cymryd camau tuag at ddatblygu system fudd-daliadau gyson i Gymru. Felly, yn union fel y dywedodd Comisiynydd Plant Cymru yng nghyd-destun eich strategaeth tlodi plant, mae’r diffyg manylion am gamau gweithredu, amserlenni a’r hyn y gellir ei gyflawni unwaith eto'n golygu nad oes unrhyw ffordd o ddwyn Llywodraeth Cymru i gyfrif. Wrth eich holi ar y strategaeth tlodi plant yma yr wythnos diwethaf, gofynnais beth yw eich amserlen felly ar gyfer cyflwyno system fudd-daliadau Gymreig, a pha dargedau a fydd ar waith i fesur cynnydd. Ni wnaethoch ateb. A wnewch chi wneud hynny nawr?
Thank you very much. I'm really glad, Mark Isherwood, that you've drawn attention to our Welsh benefits charter, which I'm very proud that I launched last Monday. I launched it in Blaenavon resource centre. In fact, the designated Member, Siân Gwenllian, was alongside me, because this is all part of our work to explore the devolution of benefits. It's about developing a Welsh benefits system, and a Welsh benefits charter is part of that. I'm sure you will have seen the charter. All 22 local authorities signed up to this. I met with the partnership council, with the Minister for Finance and Local Government, and all the leaders, in November, and they all have signed up and endorsed it. But, as you say, it's about putting the charter into practice, so there's going to be an independent external reference group, which will be chaired by Fran Targett, who is a very significant figure in the third sector. But the charter outcomes are here in the document: to increase take-up of Welsh benefits; help maximise household incomes; contribute to tackling poverty in Wales; awareness of benefit entitlement, which is key, obviously, to the delivery of the child poverty strategy; commitments on income maximisation and welfare benefit take-up; reduction in the need for emergency aid; take-up measured by the number of people supported via Welsh Government benefit schemes. So, again, you will hear much more about this when I make an oral statement about this on 20 February.
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Rwy'n falch iawn, Mark Isherwood, eich bod wedi tynnu sylw at siarter budd-daliadau Cymru yr oeddwn yn falch iawn o'i lansio ddydd Llun diwethaf. Fe’i lansiais yng nghanolfan adnoddau Blaenafon. A dweud y gwir, roedd yr Aelod dynodedig, Siân Gwenllian, gyda mi, gan fod hyn oll yn rhan o’n gwaith i archwilio datganoli budd-daliadau. Mae'n ymwneud â datblygu system fudd-daliadau Gymreig, ac mae siarter budd-daliadau Cymru yn rhan o hynny. Rwy’n siŵr y byddwch wedi gweld y siarter. Mae pob un o'r 22 awdurdod lleol wedi ymrwymo i hyn. Cyfarfûm â’r cyngor partneriaeth, gyda’r Gweinidog Cyllid a Llywodraeth Leol, a’r holl arweinwyr, ym mis Tachwedd, ac mae pob un ohonynt wedi ymrwymo iddi ac wedi ei chymeradwyo. Ond fel y dywedwch, mae a wnelo â rhoi'r siarter ar waith, felly bydd gennym grŵp cyfeirio allanol annibynnol, a fydd yn cael ei gadeirio gan Fran Targett, sy'n unigolyn pwysig iawn yn y trydydd sector. Ond mae canlyniadau’r siarter yma yn y ddogfen: cynyddu nifer y bobl sy'n manteisio ar fudd-daliadau Cymreig; helpu i wneud y mwyaf o incwm aelwydydd; cyfrannu at fynd i'r afael â thlodi yng Nghymru; gwell ymwybyddiaeth o hawl i fudd-daliadau, sy’n allweddol, yn amlwg, i gyflawni’r strategaeth tlodi plant; cyflawni ymrwymiadau ar wneud y mwyaf o incwm a'r nifer sy'n manteisio ar fudd-daliadau lles; gostyngiad yn yr angen am gymorth brys; mesur y nifer sy’n manteisio yn ôl nifer y bobl a gefnogir drwy gynlluniau budd-daliadau Llywodraeth Cymru. Felly, unwaith eto, fe fyddwch yn clywed llawer mwy am hyn pan fyddaf yn gwneud datganiad llafar ar hyn ar 20 Chwefror.
Diolch. This was first raised with us almost a decade ago by the sector in committee, and in this Chamber by me and others. And you still haven't told me what timescale you're working to for the introduction of a Welsh benefits system, and whether you will have any targets in place to measure progress.
The Bevan Foundation states that it's eager to ensure that the Welsh Government delivers on its commitment to establish a Welsh benefits system in the round. How do you, therefore, respond to their statement that, although the current arrangements are based on collaboration and partnership, as participation is therefore voluntary, there's a risk that some bodies do not participate at all, while others do their own thing, and to their calls on the Welsh Government—including to put participation on a firmer footing by requiring local authorities to align their administration of a council tax reduction scheme with other devolved schemes that they administer—to set out a clear route-map to bring other means-tested grants and allowances into the system, beyond the original idea of seven different schemes brought into a common framework, and to reimburse local authorities and, potentially, others in due course, for additional costs, starting with the council tax reduction scheme, where there is expected to be the largest increase in take-up?
Diolch. Codwyd hyn gyda ni gyntaf bron i ddegawd yn ôl gan y sector yn y pwyllgor, ac yn y Siambr hon gennyf i ac eraill. Ac nid ydych wedi dweud wrthyf o hyd pa amserlen yr ydych yn gweithio iddi ar gyfer cyflwyno system fudd-daliadau Gymreig, ac a fydd gennych unrhyw dargedau ar waith i fesur cynnydd.
Mae Sefydliad Bevan yn nodi eu bod yn awyddus i sicrhau bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn cyflawni ei hymrwymiad i sefydlu system fudd-daliadau briodol i Gymru. Sut ydych chi'n ymateb, felly, i’w datganiad, er bod y trefniadau presennol yn seiliedig ar gydweithredu a phartneriaeth, a bod cyfranogiad o'r herwydd yn wirfoddol, fod yna risg na fydd rhai cyrff yn cymryd rhan o gwbl, tra bydd eraill yn gwneud fel y mynnant, ac i'w galwadau ar Lywodraeth Cymru—gan gynnwys rhoi sylfaen gadarnach i gyfranogiad drwy ei gwneud yn ofynnol i awdurdodau lleol alinio'r gwaith o weinyddu cynllun gostyngiadau’r dreth gyngor â chynlluniau datganoledig eraill y maent yn eu gweinyddu—i nodi llwybr clir ar gyfer cynnwys lwfansau a grantiau eraill sy'n dibynnu ar brawf modd yn y system, y tu hwnt i’r syniad gwreiddiol o gynnwys saith cynllun gwahanol mewn fframwaith cyffredin, ac i ad-dalu costau ychwanegol i awdurdodau lleol ac eraill, o bosibl, maes o law, gan ddechrau gyda chynllun gostyngiadau’r dreth gyngor, lle mae disgwyl y cynnydd mwyaf yn y nifer sy'n manteisio arno?
Well, I can say that you'll hear much more about this on 20 February, and I think, Llywydd, you will want me not to say much more today, because that will be the oral statement.
But can I just say that this Welsh benefits charter is very much based on not only the work of the Bevan Foundation, which produced a very good report, 'Making the case for a Welsh Benefits System—people’s experiences', and we've drawn directly from that report, but also—and John Griffiths, of course, chaired, and, I think, you sat on—the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee that did this important work that led us to develop the charter. One of the key points about the charter, which is reflected in the work of the Bevan Foundation, is that this is the development of a coherent Welsh benefits system to be at the heart of a compassionate, joined-up and person-centred system, where a person only has to tell their story once to access all their entitlements. And that is what the leader of Torfaen council, Councillor Anthony Hunt—on behalf of all leaders—said that they are committed to, that compassionate, joined-up, person-centred system, which we certainly do not have, I would say, in the UK social security system, which still turns to sanctions, causing great hardship and grief to the people who experience that.
But this charter is based on respect for fundamental human rights and equality. And one approach is the council tax reduction scheme—yes, we need a great deal more take-up of that scheme—but also, eligibility for free school meals, the schools essentials grant, education maintenance allowance. Those are all the benefits that we, with local government, will ensure can be taken up in one application, one contact, accessing their entitlements—one story.
Wel, gallaf ddweud y byddwch yn clywed llawer mwy am hyn ar 20 Chwefror, ac rwy'n credu, Lywydd, y byddwch am imi beidio â dweud llawer mwy heddiw, gan mai dyna fydd y datganiad llafar.
Ond a gaf i ddweud bod y siarter budd-daliadau Cymru yn seiliedig nid yn unig ar waith Sefydliad Bevan, a gynhyrchodd adroddiad da iawn, 'Making the case for a Welsh Benefits System—people’s experiences', ac rydym wedi gwneud defnydd uniongyrchol o'r adroddiad hwnnw, ond hefyd y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau—a gadeiriwyd gan John Griffiths, wrth gwrs, ac rwy'n credu eich bod chi'n aelod ohono—a wnaeth y gwaith pwysig hwn a’n harweiniodd i ddatblygu’r siarter. Un o’r pwyntiau allweddol am y siarter, a adlewyrchir yng ngwaith Sefydliad Bevan, yw bod hyn yn ymwneud â datblygu system fudd-daliadau gydlynol i Gymru i fod wrth wraidd system dosturiol a chydgysylltiedig sy’n canolbwyntio ar unigolion, lle mae'n rhaid i unigolyn adrodd eu stori unwaith yn unig i gael mynediad at eu holl hawliau. A dyna a ddywedodd arweinydd cyngor Torfaen, y Cynghorydd Anthony Hunt—ar ran yr holl arweinwyr—eu bod wedi ymrwymo i system dosturiol a chydgysylltiedig sy’n canolbwyntio ar unigolion, sy'n rhywbeth nad oes gennym, yn fy marn i, yn system nawdd cymdeithasol y DU, sy’n dal i droi at sancsiynau, gan achosi caledi a gofid aruthrol i’r bobl sy’n eu hwynebu.
Ond mae'r siarter hon yn seiliedig ar barch at hawliau dynol sylfaenol a chydraddoldeb. Ac un dull yw cynllun gostyngiadau'r dreth gyngor—oes, mae arnom angen i lawer mwy o bobl fanteisio ar y cynllun hwnnw—ond hefyd, cymhwysedd i gael prydau ysgol am ddim, y grant hanfodion ysgol, y lwfans cynhaliaeth addysg. Dyna'r holl fudd-daliadau y byddwn ni, gyda llywodraeth leol, yn sicrhau y gellir cael mynediad atynt drwy un cais, un cysylltiad, i allu manteisio ar eu hawliau—un stori.
Thank you. Well, I hope, although you've still failed to address the points, that you can at least confirm that there will be targets and timescales, even if you have to wait for your statement before you can share the detail with us. And, as you indicate, the Bevan Foundation have been raising this for years, as have multiple other organisations, and this was captured in the evidence to the committee in that inquiry that I was party to.
The Welsh benefits charter states that the Welsh Government and local authorities, and other delivery partners, key stakeholders and people accessing benefits will work in partnership to design an inclusive system. During evidence taking for the 2019 Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee inquiry into 'Benefits in Wales: options for better delivery', witnesses including Community Housing Cymru called for better integration between job centres and locally delivered services, including data sharing between the Department for Work and Pensions and local authorities. However, the Welsh benefits charter only refers to,
'continuing to work with the Department for Work and Pensions...to raise awareness and promote the take-up of non-devolved benefits in Wales',
without any reference to a collaborative role for local Jobcentre Plus offices, which are already established to administer non-devolved welfare benefits, and which, working with local authorities, can become a single point of contact for devolved benefits also. This is what the sector called for nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one years ago. So, what, if any, discussions have you had with the UK Department for Work and Pensions regarding the role that Jobcentre Plus can play in an integrated Welsh benefits system, working collaboratively with local authorities across Wales?
Diolch. Wel, er eich bod wedi methu ymateb i'r pwyntiau o hyd, rwy'n gobeithio y gallwch o leiaf gadarnhau y bydd targedau ac amserlenni, hyd yn oed os bydd yn rhaid ichi aros am eich datganiad cyn y gallwch rannu’r manylion â ni. Ac fel y dywedwch, mae Sefydliad Bevan wedi bod yn codi hyn ers blynyddoedd, yn ogystal â sawl sefydliad arall, ac roedd hyn yn rhan o'r dystiolaeth i'r pwyllgor yn yr ymchwiliad hwnnw y bûm yn rhan ohono.
Mae siarter budd-daliadau Cymru yn nodi y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru ac awdurdodau lleol, a phartneriaid cyflawni eraill, rhanddeiliaid allweddol a phobl sy’n cael budd-daliadau yn gweithio mewn partneriaeth i lunio system gynhwysol. Wrth gasglu tystiolaeth yn 2019 ar gyfer ymchwiliad y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau, 'Budd-daliadau yng Nghymru: opsiynau i'w cyflawni'n well', galwodd tystion, gan gynnwys Cartrefi Cymunedol Cymru, am well integreiddio rhwng canolfannau gwaith a gwasanaethau a ddarperir yn lleol, gan gynnwys rhannu data rhwng yr Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau ac awdurdodau lleol. Fodd bynnag, nid yw siarter budd-daliadau Cymru ond yn cyfeirio at:
'barhau i weithio gyda'r Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau...i godi ymwybyddiaeth ac annog pobl i fanteisio ar fudd-daliadau nad ydynt wedi'u datganoli yng Nghymru',
heb unrhyw gyfeiriad at rôl gydweithredol i swyddfeydd lleol y Ganolfan Byd Gwaith, sydd eisoes wedi’u sefydlu i weinyddu budd-daliadau lles nad ydynt wedi’u datganoli, ac a all, drwy weithio gydag awdurdodau lleol, ddod yn un pwynt cyswllt ar gyfer budd-daliadau datganoledig hefyd. Dyma oedd y sector yn galw amdano naw mlynedd, wyth mlynedd, saith mlynedd, chwe blynedd, bum mlynedd, bedair blynedd, dair blynedd, ddwy flynedd, un flwyddyn yn ôl. Felly, pa drafodaethau, os o gwbl, a gawsoch chi gydag Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau’r DU ynghylch y rôl y gall y Ganolfan Byd Gwaith ei chwarae mewn system fudd-daliadau integredig yng Nghymru, gan weithio ar y cyd gydag awdurdodau lleol ledled Cymru?
I think there clearly have been moves towards joining up a Welsh benefits system for many years, but they've tended to be fragmented and piecemeal, with no strategic lead. We are responding to this with the creation of a coherent Welsh benefits system. It would be good if you could actually welcome the launch by 22 local authorities and the Welsh Government for this Welsh benefits charter. I haven't heard that yet from you. And I have to say, I wonder if you will go back to your colleagues in Westminster and, indeed, make representations. When the Welsh Affairs Committee actually did a really important piece of work about what the impact of the social security system—UK social security system—had on people in Wales—.
We know that the benefit levels are too low—people are in poverty across the UK because of the low levels of UK benefits. The inequities and ill-advised use of sanctions, which are still being used, and the DWP obviously underlining and endorsing that—. So, let's just look at what we're trying to do in Wales. But of course we work, where we can, not just with Jobcentre Plus—and we all work with our local jobcentres—to ensure that there is a take-up not just of our benefits, but of very important benefits like pension credit. And that's where I am working closely with the DWP Minister to ensure that we can get that data sharing, so local authorities can encourage citizens to take up pension credit, which is an important, non-devolved benefit.
Yn amlwg, credaf fod ymdrechion wedi'u gwneud ers blynyddoedd lawer i greu system fudd-daliadau gydgysylltiedig i Gymru, ond maent wedi tueddu i fod yn fratiog ac yn dameidiog, heb unrhyw arweiniad strategol. Rydym yn ymateb i hyn drwy greu system fudd-daliadau gydlynol i Gymru. Byddai’n dda pe gallech groesawu lansiad siarter budd-daliadau Cymru gan 22 o awdurdodau lleol a Llywodraeth Cymru. Nid wyf wedi clywed hynny gennych eto. Ac mae'n rhaid imi ddweud, tybed a fyddwch chi'n mynd yn ôl at gyd-aelodau o'ch plaid yn San Steffan, ac yn gwneud sylwadau yn wir. Pan wnaeth y Pwyllgor Materion Cymreig waith pwysig iawn ar yr effaith y mae'r system nawdd cymdeithasol—system nawdd cymdeithasol y DU—yn ei chael ar bobl yng Nghymru—.
Gwyddom fod lefelau'r budd-daliadau’n rhy isel—mae pobl mewn tlodi ledled y DU o ganlyniad i lefelau isel budd-daliadau’r DU. Mae’r annhegwch a’r defnydd annoeth o sancsiynau, sy’n dal i gael eu defnyddio, a’r Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau yn amlwg yn tanlinellu ac yn cymeradwyo hynny—. Felly, gadewch inni edrych ar yr hyn y ceisiwn ei wneud yng Nghymru. Ond wrth gwrs, rydym yn gweithio, lle gallwn, nid yn unig gyda'r Ganolfan Byd Gwaith—ac mae pob un ohonom yn gweithio gyda'n canolfannau gwaith lleol—i sicrhau bod pobl nid yn unig yn manteisio ar ein budd-daliadau, ond hefyd ar fudd-daliadau pwysig iawn fel credyd pensiwn. A dyna lle rwy’n gweithio’n agos gyda Gweinidog yr Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau i sicrhau bod y data hwnnw'n cael ei rannu, fel y gall awdurdodau lleol annog dinasyddion i fanteisio ar gredyd pensiwn, budd-dal pwysig nad yw wedi'i ddatganoli.
Llefarydd Plaid Cymru nawr—Sioned Williams.
Plaid Cymru spokesperson now—Sioned Williams.
Diolch, Llywydd. Citizens Advice Cymru has just published their 2023 review dashboard highlights, which show that they are continuing to help unprecedented numbers of people in crisis. By the end of the year, they'd referred 21,000 people to foodbanks or other charitable support for the first time, almost double the number of 2021. And after another year of record high energy prices and decreasing levels of Government support, this winter they've helped more people with energy debt than ever before. They're seeing some of the highest numbers of people seeking help with arrears on council tax debt, water debt and rent arrears, and the level of that debt has increased.
One of the only recommendations of the Government's expert group on the cost-of-living crisis that has seen any action is that on bringing together Welsh financial support into that streamlined and automatic system we all want to see that would help alleviate poverty. And as we've heard, you launched last week the Welsh benefits charter, as that first step towards the Welsh benefits system, which Plaid Cymru has long backed and is actively working towards through the co-operation agreement. I share the concerns that it's not on a statutory footing.
But the report of the expert group also draws attention to the fact that simplifying the way Welsh benefits are delivered must go hand in hand with an increase in the eligibility thresholds and value of payments, stating that the eligibility thresholds for free school meals for older pupils, school essentials grants, education maintenance allowances have been frozen for several years, and that a household then has to be very much poorer to be eligible for these schemes than four years ago. So, does the Welsh Government accept the need to address this and review and align the different eligibility thresholds, as part of the implementation arrangements for the Welsh benefits charter?
Diolch, Lywydd. Mae Cyngor ar Bopeth Cymru newydd gyhoeddi dangosfwrdd eu hadolygiad ar gyfer 2023, sy’n dangos eu bod yn parhau i helpu niferoedd digynsail o bobl mewn argyfwng. Erbyn diwedd y flwyddyn, roeddent wedi cyfeirio 21,000 o bobl at fanciau bwyd neu gymorth elusennol arall am y tro cyntaf, bron i ddwbl y nifer yn 2021. Ac ar ôl blwyddyn arall o'r prisiau ynni uchaf erioed a lefelau llai a llai o gymorth gan y Llywodraeth, y gaeaf hwn, maent wedi helpu mwy o bobl sydd â dyledion ynni nag erioed o'r blaen. Maent yn gweld niferoedd uchel iawn o bobl yn ceisio cymorth gydag ôl-ddyledion y dreth gyngor, dyledion dŵr ac ôl-ddyledion rhent, ac mae lefel y ddyled honno wedi cynyddu.
Un o'r unig argymhellion gan grŵp arbenigol y Llywodraeth ar yr argyfwng costau byw sydd wedi arwain at unrhyw gamau gweithredu yw'r un ar ddod â chymorth ariannol Cymru ynghyd mewn system symlach ac awtomatig y mae pob un ohonom yn dymuno'i gweld ac a fyddai’n helpu i leihau tlodi. Ac fel y clywsom, yr wythnos diwethaf, fe wnaethoch lansio siarter budd-daliadau Cymru, fel cam cyntaf tuag at system fudd-daliadau Gymreig, y mae Plaid Cymru wedi'i chefnogi ers tro ac yr ydym yn gweithio tuag ati drwy'r cytundeb cydweithio. Rhannaf y pryderon nad yw honno ar sail statudol.
Ond mae adroddiad y grŵp arbenigol hefyd yn tynnu sylw at y ffaith bod yn rhaid i symleiddio’r ffordd y caiff budd-daliadau Cymreig eu darparu ddod law yn llaw â sicrhau cynnydd yn y trothwyon cymhwysedd a gwerth taliadau, gan nodi bod y trothwyon cymhwysedd ar gyfer prydau ysgol am ddim i ddisgyblion hŷn, grantiau hanfodion ysgol a'r lwfansau cynhaliaeth addysg wedi’u rhewi ers sawl blwyddyn, a bod yn rhaid i aelwyd wedyn fod yn llawer iawn tlotach i fod yn gymwys ar gyfer y cynlluniau hyn na phedair blynedd yn ôl. Felly, a yw Llywodraeth Cymru yn derbyn bod angen mynd i’r afael â hyn ac adolygu ac alinio’r gwahanol drothwyon cymhwysedd, fel rhan o’r trefniadau gweithredu ar gyfer siarter budd-daliadau Cymru?
Well, I'm very grateful again for the work that we've done together, as part of the co-operation agreement, to take us forward to the point where not only did we launch the Welsh benefits charter last week, and, in fact, in Torfaen, but my colleague the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership visited Ynys Môn, and saw the great work on the front line there. And the designated Member and I are also going west to meet other authorities, just to see ways in which they are delivering on the delivery of the charter and what that commitment actually means.
Now, clearly, in terms of our response to the cost-of-living crisis expert group, as I said in my written statement last week, we are taking immediate action in response to many of the recommendations—the Welsh benefits charter being just one response to that. But also, I think, continuing the roll-out of free school meals in all primary schools, as part of the co-operation agreement, is a clear indication of priorities. But this is, in terms of our draft budget—. The £1.3 billion hole in it, as a result of the UK Government's atrocious settlement for us—. We are in a very difficult place financially, as you know. I think it's really excellent that we've been able to increase the education maintenance allowance from £30 to £40. That's really important to the young people I met last week in Cardiff and Vale College in Dumballs Road, just down the road—young people who are actually now accessing hospitality, catering and building maintenance and doing their A-levels, and who are able to access the education maintenance allowance. But constrained finances, as a result of the UK Government and 13 years of austerity and £1.3 billion out of our budget means that this is about priorities. Now, I'm very proud of the fact that we have been able to safeguard our discretionary assistance fund, and that helps. We have safeguarded, also, the funding that we're putting into our Fuel Bank Foundation and into our single advice fund, so that people can take up those benefits.
Wel, rwy’n ddiolchgar iawn unwaith eto am y gwaith a wnaethom gyda’n gilydd fel rhan o’r cytundeb cydweithio, i sicrhau ein bod yn cyrraedd pwynt lle nid yn unig ein bod wedi lansio siarter budd-daliadau Cymru yr wythnos diwethaf, yn Nhorfaen yn wir, ond hefyd ymwelodd fy nghyd-Aelod, y Dirprwy Weinidog Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol ag Ynys Môn, a gweld y gwaith gwych ar y rheng flaen yno. Ac mae'r Aelod dynodedig a minnau hefyd yn mynd tua'r gorllewin i gyfarfod ag awdurdodau eraill er mwyn gweld y ffyrdd y maent yn cyflawni'r siarter a'r hyn y mae'r ymrwymiad hwnnw'n ei olygu mewn gwirionedd.
Nawr, yn amlwg, o ran ein hymateb i'r grŵp arbenigol ar yr argyfwng costau byw, fel y dywedais yn fy natganiad ysgrifenedig yr wythnos diwethaf, rydym yn cymryd camau ar unwaith mewn ymateb i lawer o'r argymhellion—dim ond un ymateb i hynny yw siarter budd-daliadau Cymru. Ond hefyd, credaf fod parhau i gyflwyno prydau ysgol am ddim ym mhob ysgol gynradd, fel rhan o’r cytundeb cydweithio, yn arwydd clir o'r blaenoriaethau. Ond mae hyn, o ran ein cyllideb ddrafft—. Mae’r twll o £1.3 biliwn ynddi, o ganlyniad i setliad erchyll Llywodraeth y DU i ni—. Rydym mewn lle anodd iawn yn ariannol, fel y gwyddoch. Credaf ei bod yn wych iawn ein bod wedi gallu cynyddu'r lwfans cynhaliaeth addysg o £30 i £40. Mae hynny'n bwysig iawn i'r bobl ifanc y cyfarfûm â hwy yr wythnos diwethaf yng Ngholeg Caerdydd a'r Fro ar Heol Dumballs, i lawr y ffordd—pobl ifanc sydd bellach yn cael mynediad at gyrsiau lletygarwch, arlwyo a chynnal a chadw adeiladau ac yn gwneud eu harholiadau Safon Uwch, ac sy'n gallu cael mynediad at y lwfans cynhaliaeth addysg. Ond mae cyllid cyfyngedig, o ganlyniad i Lywodraeth y DU a 13 mlynedd o gyni ac £1.3 biliwn allan o’n cyllideb yn golygu bod hyn yn ymwneud â blaenoriaethau. Nawr, rwy'n falch iawn o'r ffaith ein bod wedi gallu diogelu ein cronfa cymorth dewisol, ac mae hynny'n helpu. Rydym wedi diogelu, hefyd, y cyllid a roddwn i'n Sefydliad Banc Tanwydd ac i'n cronfa gynghori sengl, fel y gall pobl fanteisio ar y budd-daliadau hynny.
Diolch. The expert group also highlighted, of course, the effect of the cost-of-living crisis on older people in Wales. Around one in five older people in Wales live in poverty, and many more have been badly affected by the crisis. A report published yesterday by the Older People's Commissioner for Wales found that a significant number of older people in Wales, including a third of people aged 75 plus, find themselves digitally excluded and increasingly facing barriers when trying to access the information and support that is available. This is concerning, of course, not only because it affects access to support and entitlements, but it also increases costs for older people. Home insurance, for example, can cost up to 46 per cent more when purchased offline. The experience shared in the report paints a picture of a stark digital divide exacerbating the effect of the cost-of-living crisis on older people. The commissioner says that action must be taken to tackle this exclusion as a matter of urgency, and that's been echoed by Age Cymru. In light of this, it's therefore disappointing that there's a reduction of £500,000 in the draft budget for digital inclusion, compared to the indicative budget for 2024-25. This will mean reducing activity aimed at improving digital skills and access. So, could the Minister outline what assessment has been made of this cut and its effect on digital exclusion and poverty amongst older people?
Diolch. Tynnodd y grŵp arbenigol sylw hefyd, wrth gwrs, at effaith yr argyfwng costau byw ar bobl hŷn yng Nghymru. Mae oddeutu un o bob pump o bobl hŷn Cymru yn byw mewn tlodi, ac mae’r argyfwng wedi effeithio’n wael ar lawer mwy. Canfu adroddiad a gyhoeddwyd ddoe gan Gomisiynydd Pobl Hŷn Cymru fod nifer sylweddol o bobl hŷn yng Nghymru, gan gynnwys traean o bobl 75 oed a hŷn, wedi’u hallgáu’n ddigidol ac yn wynebu rhwystrau cynyddol wrth geisio cael mynediad at yr wybodaeth a’r cymorth sydd ar gael. Mae hyn yn peri pryder, wrth gwrs, nid yn unig am ei fod yn effeithio ar fynediad at gymorth a hawliau, ond mae hefyd yn cynyddu costau i bobl hŷn. Gall yswiriant cartref, er enghraifft, gostio hyd at 46 y cant yn fwy pan gaiff ei brynu all-lein. Mae’r profiad a rennir yn yr adroddiad yn cynnig darlun o hollt ddigidol amlwg sy’n gwaethygu effaith yr argyfwng costau byw ar bobl hŷn. Dywed y comisiynydd fod yn rhaid cymryd camau i fynd i’r afael â’r allgáu hwn fel mater o frys, ac mae hynny wedi’i adleisio gan Age Cymru. Yng ngoleuni hyn, mae’n siomedig felly fod gostyngiad o £500,000 yn y gyllideb ddrafft ar gyfer cynhwysiant digidol, o gymharu â’r gyllideb ddangosol ar gyfer 2024-25. Bydd hyn yn golygu lleihau gweithgarwch ar gyfer gwella sgiliau digidol a mynediad. Felly, a allai’r Gweinidog amlinellu pa asesiad a wnaed o’r toriad hwn a’i effaith ar allgáu digidol a thlodi ymhlith pobl hŷn?
Thank you very much. A really important question. It follows on from the question from Mark Isherwood in terms of the take-up of benefits and the take-up of those benefits that aren't devolved, like pension credit, and that is an area where the older people's commissioner has led a campaign, which we have engaged with, to increase the take-up. In fact, she was meeting with the First Minister only last week and, again, they were talking about ways in which we can reach out to older people to take up that campaign. And I think our Welsh benefits charter, the linking up of the system, the Welsh benefits system that we're developing, isn't going to be exclusively about our benefits, which of course we want to extend and increase when we get the budget to do so, but also about ensuring that people can take up pension credit. It makes such a significant difference to the lives of older people. So, we have a sub-group—as part of our Advicelink Cymru funding 'Claim what's yours' campaign, we've got a sub-group specifically tasked with increasing the take-up of pension credit.
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Cwestiwn gwirioneddol bwysig. Mae’n dilyn ymlaen o gwestiwn Mark Isherwood ar y nifer sy’n manteisio ar fudd-daliadau a’r nifer sy’n manteisio ar fudd-daliadau nad ydynt wedi’u datganoli, fel credyd pensiwn, ac mae hwnnw’n faes y mae’r comisiynydd pobl hŷn wedi arwain ymgyrch arno, ymgyrch yr ydym wedi ymgysylltu â hi, i gynyddu’r nifer sy’n manteisio ar y budd-dal. A dweud y gwir, cyfarfu â’r Prif Weinidog yr wythnos diwethaf, ac unwaith eto, buont yn siarad am ffyrdd y gallwn estyn allan at bobl hŷn i'w helpu i fanteisio ar yr ymgyrch honno. Ac ni chredaf y bydd siarter budd-daliadau Cymru, y gwaith o gydgysylltu'r system, y system fudd-daliadau Gymreig yr ydym yn ei datblygu, yn ymwneud yn unig â’n budd-daliadau ni, budd-daliadau yr ydym yn awyddus i'w hymestyn a’u cynyddu pan gawn y gyllideb i wneud hynny wrth gwrs, ond mae hefyd yn ymwneud â sicrhau y gall pobl hawlio credyd pensiwn. Mae’n gwneud gwahaniaeth mor bwysig i fywydau pobl hŷn. Felly, mae gennym is-grŵp—fel rhan o'n hymgyrch 'Hawliwch yr hyn sy’n ddyledus i chi' a ariennir drwy Advicelink Cymru, mae gennym is-grŵp sydd â'r dasg benodol o gynyddu'r nifer sy'n manteisio ar gredyd pensiwn.
3. Sut y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn cefnogi cyn-filwyr i gael mynediad at wasanaethau cyhoeddus? OQ60622
3. How is the Welsh Government supporting veterans to access public services? OQ60622
The Welsh Government is fully committed to the armed forces covenant and supporting servicepeople, veterans and their families in accessing public services. This includes the work of our armed forces liaison officers at the local level and through our support for veteran-specific NHS services.
Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi ymrwymo’n llwyr i gyfamod y lluoedd arfog ac i gefnogi milwyr, cyn-filwyr a’u teuluoedd i gael mynediad at wasanaethau cyhoeddus. Mae hyn yn cynnwys gwaith ein swyddogion cysylltu â'r lluoedd arfog ar lefel leol a thrwy ein cymorth i wasanaethau GIG sy’n benodol ar gyfer cyn-filwyr.
Thank you, Minister. I think we can all be very proud here that, across the UK, we have the Armed Forces Act 2006, and we know that this monumental piece of legislation enshrines many of the principles championed by the armed forces covenant, such as placing a legal duty on public bodies to take into account ex-service personnel status. This sort of legislation is necessary, as we know veterans are more likely to report health conditions that limit daily tasks when compared to the general public, as a result of their time in active service, and this is one among many of the reasons why the armed forces covenant lays out that veterans should be entitled to priority treatment for conditions related to their service.
However, Minister, a constituent reached out to me and this highlighted how there may be some serious discrepancies in how this Act is applied across public bodies. The constituent has been faced with a 100-week wait to receive necessary health treatment for an injury sustained during active service. It has put enormous strain on himself, his family and partner, who are undertaking caring duties for him. So, Minister, in light of this, how does the Government monitor that public bodies don't just pay lip service to the covenant, but deliver on its expectations?
Diolch, Weinidog. Credaf y gall pob un ohonom fod yn falch iawn yma fod gennym, ledled y DU, Ddeddf y Lluoedd Arfog 2006, a gwyddom fod y Ddeddf aruthrol hon yn ymgorffori llawer o’r egwyddorion a hyrwyddir gan gyfamod y lluoedd arfog, megis gosod dyletswydd gyfreithiol ar gyrff cyhoeddus i ystyried statws cyn-bersonél y lluoedd arfog. Mae angen deddfwriaeth o'r fath, am y gwyddom fod cyn-filwyr yn fwy tebygol o nodi cyflyrau iechyd sy’n cyfyngu ar dasgau o ddydd i ddydd o gymharu â’r cyhoedd yn gyffredinol, o ganlyniad i’w cyfnod ar wasanaeth gweithredol, a dyma un o lawer o resymau pam fod cyfamod y lluoedd arfog yn nodi y dylai fod gan gyn-filwyr hawl i driniaeth flaenoriaethol ar gyfer cyflyrau sy’n gysylltiedig â’u gwasanaeth.
Fodd bynnag, Weinidog, cysylltodd etholwr â mi gan nodi sut y gallai fod rhai anghysondebau difrifol yn y ffordd y caiff y Ddeddf hon ei rhoi ar waith ar draws cyrff cyhoeddus. Mae'r etholwr wedi wynebu arhosiad o 100 wythnos i gael triniaeth iechyd angenrheidiol ar gyfer anaf a gafodd ar wasanaeth gweithredol. Mae wedi rhoi straen aruthrol arno ef, ei deulu a’i bartner, sy'n gofalu amdano. Felly, Weinidog, yng ngoleuni hyn, sut mae'r Llywodraeth yn monitro nad rhoi canmoliaeth wag i'r cyfamod yn unig y mae cyrff cyhoeddus yn ei wneud, a'u bod yn cyflawni ei ddisgwyliadau?
I thank Peter Fox for his question. I know that you're a passionate and committed advocate in this area, not least because of your own personal connections to the armed forces community here in Wales. Whilst I can't comment on individual cases, but more broadly on the support that's there and the mechanisms in place and how we can make sure that they are being followed as effectively and as efficiently as they should be. So, you're right to point out the armed forces covenant has two principles at the core of that: those who have served should face no disadvantage compared with other citizens in the provision of public services, and also that special consideration is appropriate in some cases, especially those who have given the most, such as the injured.
The armed forces due regard duty has been a legal requirement since November 2022, and that applies in Wales to local authorities, health boards and schools, and that means to have due regard to that armed forces covenant as part of that, and the organisations need to consciously consider the unique responsibilities and sacrifices made by members of the armed forces. I'm aware there is work across Wales, where local health boards and authorities are implementing positive changes, such as how they identify the armed forces people in accessing services for veterans and in some of their policies to improve awareness of issues that those in the armed forces may encounter. Whilst I can't intervene in individual cases, it's something that I can take back, just to make sure that that due regard duty has been embedded as effectively as it can be in all those bodies that are subject to it now.
Diolch i Peter Fox am ei gwestiwn. Gwn eich bod yn dadlau'n angerddol ac yn ymroddedig yn y maes hwn, yn enwedig oherwydd eich cysylltiadau personol eich hun â chymuned y lluoedd arfog yma yng Nghymru. Er na allaf wneud sylwadau ar achosion unigol, ond yn fwy cyffredinol ar y cymorth sydd ar gael a'r mecanweithiau sydd ar waith a sut y gallwn sicrhau eu bod yn cael eu dilyn mor effeithiol ac mor effeithlon ag y dylid ei wneud. Felly, rydych yn llygad eich lle i nodi bod gan gyfamod y lluoedd arfog ddwy egwyddor ganolog: ni ddylai’r rhai sydd wedi gwasanaethu wynebu unrhyw anfantais o gymharu â dinasyddion eraill mewn perthynas â'r ddarpariaeth o wasanaethau cyhoeddus, a hefyd fod ystyriaeth arbennig yn briodol mewn rhai achosion, yn enwedig y rheini sydd wedi rhoi fwyaf, megis y rhai a glwyfwyd.
Mae dyletswydd sylw dyladwy'r lluoedd arfog wedi bod yn ofyniad cyfreithiol ers mis Tachwedd 2022, ac mae hynny’n berthnasol yng Nghymru i awdurdodau lleol, byrddau iechyd ac ysgolion, a golyga roi sylw dyledus i gyfamod y lluoedd arfog yn rhan o hynny, ac mae angen i’r sefydliadau roi ystyriaeth briodol i'r cyfrifoldebau a'r aberthau unigryw a wneir gan aelodau'r lluoedd arfog. Rwy’n ymwybodol fod gwaith yn mynd rhagddo ledled Cymru, lle mae byrddau iechyd ac awdurdodau lleol yn rhoi newidiadau cadarnhaol ar waith, megis y ffordd y maent yn adnabod pobl y lluoedd arfog ar gyfer cael mynediad at wasanaethau i gyn-filwyr ac yn rhai o’u polisïau i wella ymwybyddiaeth o faterion y gall aelodau o'r lluoedd arfog eu hwynebu. Er na allaf ymyrryd mewn achosion unigol, mae'n fater y gallaf fynd ag ef yn ôl, er mwyn sicrhau bod y ddyletswydd sylw dyladwy honno wedi'i hymgorffori mor effeithiol ag y gall fod yn yr holl gyrff sy'n ddarostyngedig iddi nawr.
4. Pa asesiad y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi'i wneud o effaith mesuryddion rhagdalu ar dlodi tanwydd? OQ60608
4. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of prepayment meters on fuel poverty? OQ60608
Thank you for the question. Many of the 200,000 Welsh householders on prepayment meters are on the lowest incomes and are at risk of self-disconnecting as they struggle to make ends meet. We're here to help with emergency funds, support on income maximisation and free energy efficiency measures.
Diolch am eich cwestiwn. Mae llawer o’r 200,000 o ddeiliaid tai yng Nghymru sydd ar fesuryddion rhagdalu ar yr incwm isaf ac mewn perygl o hunanddatgysylltu wrth iddynt frwydro i gael deupen llinyn ynghyd. Rydym yma i helpu gyda chronfeydd brys, cymorth ar weithredu pwyslais ar incwm a mesurau effeithlonrwydd ynni am ddim.
Diolch, Gweinidog. The forced installation of prepayment meters into the homes of people who are struggling to stay warm enough to live is a scandal. The fact that Ofgem is allowing energy companies to keep doing this is proof, I'm afraid, that we have a regulator that works for the benefit of companies and not customers. Last year Citizens Advice Cymru dealt with record numbers of people who couldn't afford to top up their prepayment meters and who were disconnected repeatedly. Let's not lose sight of the fact that when we talk about disconnecting a person, that means throwing them to the wolves, cutting off their heating, creating a situation, knowingly, that could lead to their death. So, what discussions have you had with Ofgem, with energy suppliers and the UK Government about ensuring better protections for people on low incomes so that they can afford to adequately heat their homes and keep the lights on? Do you agree with me that the fact that the forced installation of prepayment meters is still allowed shows that we have an energy market and a regulator that have failed?
Diolch, Weinidog. Mae gosod mesuryddion rhagdalu gorfodol yng nghartrefi pobl sy'n ei chael hi'n anodd cadw'n ddigon cynnes i fyw yn warthus. Mae arnaf ofn fod y ffaith bod Ofgem yn caniatáu i gwmnïau ynni barhau i wneud hyn yn brawf fod gennym reoleiddiwr sy’n gweithio er budd cwmnïau ac nid cwsmeriaid. Y llynedd, fe wnaeth Cyngor ar Bopeth Cymru ymdrin â’r niferoedd uchaf erioed o bobl na allent fforddio ychwanegu credyd at eu mesuryddion rhagdalu, ac a oedd yn cael eu datgysylltu dro ar ôl tro. Gadewch inni beidio â cholli golwg ar y ffaith, pan fyddwn yn sôn am ddatgysylltu unigolyn, fod hynny'n golygu eu taflu i'r bleiddiaid, torri eu cyflenwad gwres, gan greu sefyllfa, yn fwriadol, a allai arwain at eu marwolaeth. Felly, pa drafodaethau a gawsoch gydag Ofgem, gyda chyflenwyr ynni a Llywodraeth y DU ynghylch sicrhau gwell amddiffyniadau i bobl ar incwm isel fel y gallant fforddio gwresogi eu cartrefi’n ddigonol a chadw’r goleuadau ymlaen? A ydych yn cytuno â mi fod y ffaith bod gosod mesuryddion rhagdalu gorfodol yn dal i fod yn gyfreithlon yn dangos bod gennym farchnad ynni a rheoleiddiwr sydd wedi methu?
I agree wholeheartedly with those points that you've made, Delyth Jewell. I've repeatedly called for a ban on the involuntary installation of prepayment meters. It removes the ability of households to spread the cost of their energy needs evenly over a 12-month period and has led, as we know, to some householders self-disconnecting. I think, earlier on, your colleague Sioned Williams referred to a Citizens Advice report. Citizens Advice is suggesting that more than 2 million people will have their gas and electricity cut off this winter because they cannot afford to top up their prepayment meter, and 800,000 people went for more than 24 hours without gas and electricity last year because they couldn't afford that top-up.
But I have met with the new Ofgem chair in December, and made it clear that Welsh Government expect Ofgem to ensure rules are working. Now, these rules, again, from Ofgem—energy suppliers must follow new rules before a prepayment meter can be installed involuntarily. Those rules are intended to ensure that, when energy suppliers act in a fair and responsible way, they will only use them as a last resort, but we already hear that energy suppliers are planning to restart forced installation. Let's name them. Three suppliers, EDF, Octopus and Scottish Power, provided evidence, they say, and assurances that they've met Ofgem's conditions, but they're restarting involuntary installations. We remain very concerned about this, because we need to ensure that we support those households in energy debt, and we're certainly doing that with our support through the Fuel Bank Foundation voucher scheme.
Cytunaf yn llwyr â’r pwyntiau a wnaethoch, Delyth Jewell. Rwyf wedi galw dro ar ôl tro am waharddiad ar osod mesuryddion rhagdalu yn anwirfoddol. Mae’n dileu gallu aelwydydd i ledaenu cost eu hanghenion ynni dros gyfnod o 12 mis, ac mae wedi arwain, fel y gwyddom, at rai deiliaid tai yn hunanddatgysylltu. Rwy'n credu bod eich cyd-Aelod Sioned Williams wedi cyfeirio'n gynharach at adroddiad Cyngor ar Bopeth. Mae Cyngor ar Bopeth yn awgrymu y bydd cyflenwadau nwy a thrydan mwy na 2 filiwn o bobl yn cael eu datgysylltu y gaeaf hwn am na allant fforddio ychwanegu credyd at eu mesuryddion rhagdalu, ac aeth 800,000 o bobl am fwy na 24 awr heb nwy a thrydan y llynedd am na allent fforddio ychwanegu credyd.
Ond fe gyfarfûm â chadeirydd newydd Ofgem ym mis Rhagfyr, a dywedais yn glir fod Llywodraeth Cymru yn disgwyl i Ofgem sicrhau bod y rheolau’n gweithio. Nawr, mae'r rheolau hyn, unwaith eto, gan Ofgem—mae'n rhaid i gyflenwyr ynni ddilyn rheolau newydd cyn y gellir gosod mesurydd rhagdalu yn anwirfoddol. Bwriad y rheolau hynny yw sicrhau, pan fydd cyflenwyr ynni’n gweithredu mewn ffordd deg a chyfrifol, mai dim ond pan fetho popeth arall y byddant yn eu defnyddio, ond rydym eisoes yn clywed bod cyflenwyr ynni yn bwriadu ailddechrau gosod mesuryddion yn orfodol. Gadewch i ni eu henwi. Mae tri chyflenwr, EDF, Octopus a Scottish Power, wedi darparu tystiolaeth, meddent, a sicrwydd eu bod wedi bodloni amodau Ofgem, ond maent yn ailddechrau gosod mesuryddion yn anwirfoddol. Rydym yn parhau i fod yn bryderus iawn am hyn, gan fod angen inni sicrhau ein bod yn cefnogi’r aelwydydd sydd â dyledion ynni, ac rydym yn sicr yn gwneud hynny gyda’n cymorth drwy gynllun talebau’r Sefydliad Banc Tanwydd.
This is an important question that Delyth Jewell raises this afternoon, following the rather disgraceful behaviour of certain energy companies coming to public attention in 2022 with many prepayment meters being forcefully installed in people's homes, leaving them without heat and energy when credit runs out. Energy prices are still stratospheric, and, with the backdrop of the cost-of-living crisis, those struggling should not suffer the additional stress of a forced installation of prepayment meters. I welcome the UK Government's action to curb the behaviour of, predominantly, British Gas, Scottish Power and Ovo, who were responsible for 70 per cent of the forced installations taking place in 2022. The UK Government's action included a five-point plan to tackle bad behaviour by energy suppliers, and calling on suppliers to stop the practice of forced prepayment switching, and the UK Government removing the premium paid by those using PPMs.
We should also welcome the UK Government support, such as the £400 grant for energy bills, and the energy price guarantee and other specific funding for low-income households, which goes some way to alleviating fuel poverty. I do have some trepidation, however, in condemning prepayment meters entirely. There are 200,000 people in Wales with a prepayment meter; for some of those people, it may work for them and their needs. But I would like the Minister to outline what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure that those on the lowest income receive a level of support with regard to their energy costs and to ensure that energy companies in Wales abide by their voluntary commitment to the UK Government's code of conduct. Thank you.
Mae hwn yn gwestiwn pwysig gan Delyth Jewell y prynhawn yma, yn dilyn ymddygiad eithaf gwarthus gan rai cwmnïau ynni a ddaeth i sylw’r cyhoedd yn 2022 gyda llawer o fesuryddion rhagdalu gorfodol yn cael eu gosod yng nghartrefi pobl, gan eu gadael heb wres ac ynni pan ddôi eu credyd i ben. Mae prisiau ynni'n dal i fod yn stratosfferig, a chyda chefndir yr argyfwng costau byw, ni ddylai'r rheini sy'n ei chael hi'n anodd orfod dioddef y straen ychwanegol o gael mesuryddion rhagdalu gorfodol wedi'u gosod yn eu cartrefi. Rwy'n croesawu camau gweithredu Llywodraeth y DU i fynd i'r afael ag ymddygiad, yn bennaf, Nwy Prydain, Scottish Power ac Ovo, a oedd yn gyfrifol am 70 y cant o’r mesuryddion gorfodol a osodwyd yn 2022. Roedd camau gweithredu Llywodraeth y DU yn cynnwys cynllun pum pwynt i fynd i’r afael ag ymddygiad gwael gan gyflenwyr ynni, ac yn galw ar gyflenwyr i roi'r gorau i'r arfer o osod mesuryddion rhagdalu gorfodol, ac ar Lywodraeth y DU i gael gwared ar y premiwm a delir gan y rheini sy’n defnyddio mesuryddion rhagdalu.
Dylem hefyd groesawu cymorth Llywodraeth y DU, megis y grant o £400 ar gyfer biliau ynni, a’r warant pris ynni a chyllid penodol arall ar gyfer aelwydydd incwm isel, sy’n gwneud rhywfaint i liniaru tlodi tanwydd. Rwy'n gyndyn, fodd bynnag, o gondemnio mesuryddion rhagdalu yn gyfan gwbl. Mae gan 200,000 o bobl yng Nghymru fesurydd rhagdalu; i rai o'r bobl hynny, efallai y bydd yn gweithio iddynt hwy a'u hanghenion. Ond hoffwn pe bai’r Gweinidog yn amlinellu’r hyn y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud i sicrhau bod y bobl sydd ar yr incwm isaf yn cael lefel o gymorth tuag at eu costau ynni a sicrhau bod cwmnïau ynni yng Nghymru yn cadw at eu hymrwymiad gwirfoddol i god ymddygiad Llywodraeth y DU. Diolch.
Thank you for that question. I'm glad you recognise the desperately difficult situation that people on prepayment meters find themselves in. It is very important for households in energy debt to contact their energy suppliers, and I meet regularly with energy suppliers. If they can contact them as soon as possible, they can agree an affordable repayment plan, and, of course, that would avoid the point of involuntary prepayment—forced installation—meters being fitted.
But there are a great many issues for the reasons why people are in this position. I only have to go back to the Citizens Advice report that we've just been talking about, because the fact is that people have not got enough money to live on, and, last week, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation said that 6 million people in the UK are in poverty and would have to have their incomes doubled in order to get out of that hardship. So, I hope you would join us in saying to the UK Government that universal credit levels are too low—£35 per week short for a single person, £65 per week short for a couple—and recognise that half of those in debt to their energy suppliers are turning off heating, 3 million living in households where they have skipped meals, cut back on food spending, or sold or pawned possessions in the last year to save money. And we've seen those pawnshops in our high streets, haven't we? And we hope that they will turn to our credit unions, which we're funding, and also to our Fuel Bank Foundation. And I must say, we've allocated nearly £4.5 million since June 2022 to fund the Fuel Bank Foundation national fuel voucher and heat fund scheme. We've got 116 referral partners, and the number of fuel vouchers issued since the project began is 46,189. But isn't it terrible that now they're piloting people having heated throws, rather than heating their homes? This is a shocking situation, but it needs a wholescale reform of our UK social security levels of benefits.
Diolch am eich cwestiwn. Rwy'n falch eich bod yn cydnabod y sefyllfa hynod o anodd y mae pobl ar fesuryddion rhagdalu ynddi. Mae'n bwysig iawn i aelwydydd sydd mewn dyled ynni gysylltu â'u cyflenwyr ynni, ac rwy'n cyfarfod yn rheolaidd â chyflenwyr ynni. Os gallant gysylltu â hwy cyn gynted â phosibl, gallant gytuno ar gynllun ad-dalu fforddiadwy, ac wrth gwrs, byddai hynny'n osgoi mesuryddion rhagdalu anwirfoddol—mesuryddion gorfodol—rhag cael eu gosod.
Ond mae llawer iawn o faterion yn ymwneud â'r rhesymau pam fod pobl yn y sefyllfa hon. Nid oes ond angen imi fynd yn ôl at yr adroddiad yr ydym newydd fod yn sôn amdano gan Cyngor ar Bopeth, gan mai'r gwir amdani yw nad oes gan bobl ddigon o arian i fyw arno, a'r wythnos diwethaf, dywedodd Sefydliad Joseph Rowntree fod 6 miliwn o bobl yn y DU yn byw mewn tlodi ac y byddai’n rhaid i’w hincwm ddyblu er mwyn dod allan o’r caledi hwnnw. Felly, rwy'n gobeithio y gwnewch chi ymuno â ni i ddweud wrth Lywodraeth y DU fod lefelau credyd cynhwysol yn rhy isel—£35 yr wythnos yn rhy isel i unigolyn sengl, £65 yr wythnos yn rhy isel i gwpl—a chydnabod bod hanner y rheini sydd mewn dyled i'w cyflenwyr ynni yn diffodd y gwres, 3 miliwn yn byw mewn cartrefi lle maent wedi mynd heb brydau bwyd, wedi torri’n ôl ar wariant ar fwyd, neu wedi gwerthu neu bonio eiddo yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf i arbed arian. Ac rydym wedi gweld y siopau pôn ar y stryd fawr, onid ydym? Ac rydym yn gobeithio y byddant yn troi at ein hundebau credyd, a ariannir gennym, a hefyd at ein Sefydliad Banc Tanwydd. Ac mae'n rhaid imi ddweud, rydym wedi dyrannu bron i £4.5 miliwn ers mis Mehefin 2022 i ariannu cynllun talebau tanwydd a chynllun cronfa wres y Sefydliad Banc Tanwydd. Mae gennym 116 o bartneriaid atgyfeirio, a nifer y talebau tanwydd a roddwyd ers i'r prosiect ddechrau yw 46,189. Ond onid yw'n ofnadwy eu bod bellach yn treialu carthenni trydan i bobl, yn hytrach na gwresogi eu cartrefi? Mae hon yn sefyllfa frawychus, ond mae angen diwygio lefelau budd-daliadau nawdd cymdeithasol y DU yn gyfan gwbl.
The action from the UK Government last year was far too little, far too late, quite frankly, and the current protections from Ofgem do not go far enough. Llywydd, I look forward to Ofgem directly responding to the recommendations made by this Senedd's Petitions Committee and the inquiry we undertook last year. I endorse the comments from Delyth Jewell and the Minister's response, and I'm pleased to see Gareth Davies taking this important issue up as well. Minister, my team met with the Enforcement Conduct Board this morning. I know you've met them too. They discussed the need for—. Where the use of enforcement agents by energy suppliers is necessary, there is a need for more protection for the public. There's a need for an independent complaints mechanism and for proper standards. We all witnessed what happened when energy suppliers like British Gas used unregulated debt collectors and bailiffs when they forced their way illegally into people's homes last year. I wonder if you would use your office, Minister, to call on the suppliers that you've mentioned today and all energy suppliers in the United Kingdom to sign up to only using enforcement agencies that have been registered with the ECB, something that local authorities in Wales have already done.
Roedd y camau gweithredu gan Lywodraeth y DU y llynedd yn llawer rhy ychydig, yn llawer rhy hwyr, a dweud y gwir, ac nid yw’r amddiffyniadau presennol gan Ofgem yn mynd yn ddigon pell. Lywydd, edrychaf ymlaen at weld Ofgem yn ymateb yn uniongyrchol i’r argymhellion a wnaed gan Bwyllgor Deisebau’r Senedd hon a’r ymchwiliad a gynhaliwyd gennym y llynedd. Ategaf y sylwadau gan Delyth Jewell ac ymateb y Gweinidog, ac rwy’n falch o weld Gareth Davies yn codi’r mater pwysig hwn hefyd. Weinidog, cyfarfu fy nhîm â’r Bwrdd Ymddygiad Gorfodi y bore yma. Gwn eich bod chithau wedi cyfarfod â hwy hefyd. Buont yn trafod yr angen am—. Lle mae angen i gyflenwyr ynni ddefnyddio asiantau gorfodi, mae angen mwy o amddiffyniad i'r cyhoedd. Mae angen mecanwaith cwynion annibynnol a safonau priodol. Gwelodd bob un ohonom yr hyn a ddigwyddodd pan ddefnyddiodd cyflenwyr ynni fel Nwy Prydain gasglwyr dyledion a beilïaid heb eu rheoleiddio pan wnaethant orfodi eu ffordd yn anghyfreithlon i mewn i gartrefi pobl y llynedd. Tybed a wnewch chi ddefnyddio’ch swydd, Weinidog, i alw ar y cyflenwyr a grybwyllwyd gennych heddiw, a phob cyflenwr ynni yn y Deyrnas Unedig, i ymrwymo i ddefnyddio asiantaethau gorfodi sydd wedi’u cofrestru gyda’r Bwrdd Ymddygiad Gorfodi yn unig, rhywbeth y mae awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru eisoes wedi'i wneud.
Thank you very much, Jack Sargeant, and can we thank you again for the report that the Petitions Committee—a cross-party committee—produced on this issue and for the work that you've done in championing this cause, with the evidence that you have gathered together and presented to us on a regular basis? I am meeting with the Enforcement Conduct Board in a couple of weeks' time precisely to raise these issues. It's interesting, when the Enforcement Conduct Board—. Many colleagues here have actually met with them and they've had events in the Senedd. When we've engaged with them, with the Welsh Local Government Association, they have agreed—. In fact, there was a programme about this last week, about the appalling behaviour of bailiffs, actually, in England, in terms of people in arrears for council tax, and they were actually praising Wales, Welsh local authorities, for taking on board the accredited agency guide from the Enforcement Conduct Board. So, I will be raising this to find out. We know Welsh Water Dŵr Cymru has taken this on board in terms of that work.
But can I just say that, also, there are some issues that I would like to share today—one issue that I'll share, Llywydd. We remain very concerned that any prepayment customer clear of debt wishing to move off prepayment will be required to pass a credit check. I've raised this with the new chair of Ofgem. It's a barrier to the prepayment meter being replaced, and this must be changed and addressed. It's unfair, it's iniquitous, and it just, again, shows how they're driving prepayment meter customers into greater depths of poverty.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Jack Sargeant, ac a gawn ni ddiolch i chi eto am yr adroddiad a gynhyrchodd y Pwyllgor Deisebau—pwyllgor trawsbleidiol—ar y mater hwn, ac am y gwaith a wnaethoch i hyrwyddo’r achos hwn, gyda’r dystiolaeth y gwnaethoch ei chasglu a'i chyflwyno i ni yn rheolaidd? Byddaf yn cyfarfod â'r Bwrdd Ymddygiad Gorfodi ymhen ychydig wythnosau i godi'r union faterion hyn. Mae'n ddiddorol, pan fydd y Bwrdd Ymddygiad Gorfodi—. Mae llawer o'm cyd-Aelodau yma wedi cyfarfod â hwy mewn gwirionedd, ac maent wedi cael digwyddiadau yn y Senedd. Pan ydym wedi ymgysylltu â hwy, gyda Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, maent wedi cytuno—. A dweud y gwir, darlledwyd rhaglen am hyn yr wythnos diwethaf, am ymddygiad echrydus beilïaid yn Lloegr tuag at bobl ag ôl-ddyledion y dreth gyngor, ac roeddent yn canmol Cymru, awdurdodau lleol Cymru, am ystyried canllawiau asiantaethau achrededig gan y Bwrdd Ymddygiad Gorfodi. Felly, byddaf yn codi hyn i ddarganfod mwy. Gwyddom fod Dŵr Cymru wedi ystyried hyn ar gyfer y gwaith hwnnw.
Ond a gaf fi ddweud, hefyd, fod rhai materion yr hoffwn eu rhannu heddiw—un mater y byddaf yn ei rannu, Lywydd. Rydym yn parhau i fod yn bryderus iawn y bydd angen i unrhyw gwsmer rhagdalu heb ddyledion sy'n dymuno newid o fesurydd rhagdalu basio gwiriad credyd. Rwyf wedi codi hyn gyda chadeirydd newydd Ofgem. Mae'n rhwystr rhag newid o fesurydd rhagdalu, ac mae'n rhaid diwygio a mynd i'r afael â hyn. Mae'n annheg, mae'n anghyfiawn, ac mae'n dangos, unwaith eto, sut maent yn gwthio cwsmeriaid ar fesuryddion rhagdalu yn ddyfnach i mewn i dlodi.
5. Pa ystyriaeth y mae'r Gweinidog wedi'i rhoi i effaith argymhellion y Comisiwn Annibynnol ar Ddyfodol Cyfansoddiadol Cymru ar gyfiawnder cymdeithasol? OQ60594
5. What consideration has the Minister given to the impact of the recommendations of the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales on social justice? OQ60594
Diolch yn fawr, Huw Irranca. The constitution commission's report sets out a compelling cross-party assessment of the flaws in the current devolution settlement that deserves careful consideration. The First Minister yesterday made a statement about this important report to the Senedd.
Diolch yn fawr, Huw Irranca. Mae adroddiad comisiwn y cyfansoddiad yn gwneud asesiad trawsbleidiol cymhellol o’r diffygion yn y setliad datganoli presennol sy’n haeddu ystyriaeth ofalus. Gwnaeth y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad am yr adroddiad pwysig hwn i’r Senedd ddoe.
Indeed. Thank you for that response, Minister, and I noticed in their analysis of this, including the work with citizens in Wales, as well as experts, and building on the Thomas commission, of course, they not only concurred with what has previously been said about the devolution of youth justice and probation, as is laid out, indeed, in the Brown report, but they go further, and they say that there is a compelling case. In fact, there were only two pieces of evidence they saw against the case for the devolution of policing and criminal justice, and those were from the Secretary of State for Wales and Lord Bellamy. Those were the only two. They say it, but they don't say, 'Go at this hell for leather.' What they do say is that
'the England and Wales justice system faces major challenges of funding and leadership and in tackling these Wales will always be a relatively low priority for the UK Government. With devolution, there would be scope for innovation and reform, building on the expertise of the justice workforce and national and local stakeholders such as local authorities and health boards.'
And
'devolution could be achieved without major disruption, through a programme of work led jointly by the UK and Welsh governments'.
So, systematic, planned, considered, working its way through the devolution of these matters. Would she agree with that analysis, and would she undertake, whatever the results of the general election, to make those representations to the UK Government to work jointly on the devolution of these critical matters for social justice?
Yn wir. Diolch am eich ymateb, Weinidog, a sylwais, yn eu dadansoddiad o hyn, gan gynnwys y gwaith gyda dinasyddion yng Nghymru, yn ogystal ag arbenigwyr, a chan adeiladu ar gomisiwn Thomas, wrth gwrs, nid yn unig eu bod yn cytuno â’r hyn a ddywedwyd eisoes ynghylch datganoli cyfiawnder ieuenctid a’r gwasanaeth prawf, fel y nodir, yn wir, yn adroddiad Brown, ond maent yn mynd ymhellach, ac yn dweud bod achos cymhellol. Mewn gwirionedd, dim ond dau ddarn o dystiolaeth a welsant yn erbyn yr achos dros ddatganoli plismona a chyfiawnder troseddol, ac roedd y rheini gan Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru a’r Arglwydd Bellamy. Dyna oedd yr unig ddau. Maent yn dweud hynny, ond nid ydynt yn dweud, 'Ewch amdani fel cath i gythraul ar hyn.' Yr hyn y maent yn ei ddweud yw
'mae system gyfiawnder Cymru a Lloegr yn wynebu heriau mawr, o ran cyllid ac arweinyddiaeth, ac wrth fynd i’r afael â’r rhain bydd Cymru bob amser yn flaenoriaeth gymharol isel i Lywodraeth y DU. Gyda datganoli, byddai cyfle i arloesi ac i ddiwygio, gan adeiladu ar arbenigedd y gweithlu cyfiawnder a rhanddeiliaid cenedlaethol a lleol fel awdurdodau lleol a byrddau iechyd.'
Ac y
'gellid datganoli heb lawer o darfu, drwy raglen waith wedi’i harwain ar y cyd gan Lywodraeth y DU a Llywodraeth Cymru'.
Felly, dull systematig, wedi'i gynllunio, wedi'i ystyried, o weithio ein ffordd drwy ddatganoli'r materion hyn. A fyddai’n cytuno â’r dadansoddiad hwnnw, ac a fyddai’n ymrwymo, ni waeth beth fo canlyniadau’r etholiad cyffredinol, i wneud y sylwadau hynny i Lywodraeth y DU i weithio ar y cyd ar ddatganoli’r materion hollbwysig hyn ar gyfer cyfiawnder cymdeithasol?
Thank you very much, Huw Irranca-Davies. I agree with you and recognise that key recommendation on justice and policing by the independent commission. It takes me back to a written statement that I and the Counsel General produced on 14 November, and perhaps we could recirculate that and share it. It is about the work that we're doing to pursue the devolution of justice and policing because it's a commitment in the Welsh Government's programme for government for 2021-26. It follows the unanimous recommendation from the Commission on Justice in Wales, the Thomas commission, which reported in 2019, and devolution of policing specifically was a recommendation from the Commission on Devolution in Wales, the Silk commission—cross-party, established by the UK Government—which reported in 2014. As we said in that statement, our ultimate objective is to pursue devolution of justice and policing in its entirety. We do recognise the phased approach is preferable. So, that is where we do respond to and we welcome, as the First Minister did yesterday, very positively, the Gordon Brown commission. And, of course, the devolution of youth justice and probation, we're not making the case for it; we're preparing for it. We're preparing for it. And we're preparing for it, indeed, with our colleagues in the co-operation agreement. We see this as a step towards devolution of justice. But it is important that, on the record, again, we have shown in that written statement that we are undertaking the research to prepare for the devolution of policing in Wales as well.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Huw Irranca-Davies. Rwy’n cytuno â chi ac yn cydnabod yr argymhelliad allweddol hwnnw ar gyfiawnder a phlismona gan y comisiwn annibynnol. Mae’n mynd â mi yn ôl at ddatganiad ysgrifenedig a luniwyd gennyf i a’r Cwnsler Cyffredinol ar 14 Tachwedd, ac efallai y gallem ei ailgylchredeg a’i rannu. Mae a wnelo â'r gwaith a wnawn i fynd ar drywydd datganoli cyfiawnder a phlismona gan ei fod yn ymrwymiad yn rhaglen lywodraethu Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer 2021-26. Mae’n dilyn argymhelliad unfrydol y Comisiwn ar Gyfiawnder yng Nghymru, comisiwn Thomas, a adroddodd yn 2019, ac roedd datganoli plismona yn benodol yn argymhelliad gan y Comisiwn ar Ddatganoli yng Nghymru, comisiwn Silk—comisiwn trawsbleidiol, a sefydlwyd gan Lywodraeth y DU—a adroddodd yn 2014. Fel y dywedasom yn y datganiad hwnnw, ein hamcan yn y pen draw yw mynd ar drywydd datganoli cyfiawnder a phlismona yn gyfan gwbl. Rydym yn cydnabod y byddai'r dull gweithredu graddol yn well. Felly, dyna ble rydym yn ymateb i ac yn croesawu comisiwn Gordon Brown, fel y gwnaeth y Prif Weinidog ddoe yn gadarnhaol iawn. Ac wrth gwrs, o ran datganoli cyfiawnder ieuenctid a'r gwasanaeth prawf, nid ydym yn dadlau'r achos dros hynny; rydym yn paratoi ar ei gyfer. Rydym yn paratoi ar ei gyfer. Ac rydym yn paratoi ar ei gyfer, yn wir, gyda'n cyd-Aelodau yn y cytundeb cydweithio. Rydym yn ystyried hyn yn gam tuag at ddatganoli cyfiawnder. Ond mae’n bwysig cofnodi unwaith eto ein bod wedi dangos yn y datganiad ysgrifenedig hwnnw ein bod yn gwneud yr ymchwil i baratoi ar gyfer datganoli plismona yng Nghymru hefyd.
A very interesting answer there, considering the UK Labour Party doesn't agree with very much of what was said there at all about the devolution of justice and policing. Nevertheless, you can't promote social justice without dealing with child poverty. Earlier this month, the Centre for Cities looked at child poverty and found that the city with the biggest increase in child poverty in the United Kingdom was Swansea. If you didn't think that was damning enough of the work of the Welsh Government to tackle child poverty, it gets worse when you see that, of all the cities in the UK, not only was Swansea first, Newport was second and Cardiff was third. And now we've seen the Welsh Government launch a child poverty strategy without a single target or timeline to hold them accountable. This constitutional talking shop won't do a thing to tackle child poverty in Wales. Instead, it costs £1.5 million and counting—money that could have been spent on improving the life chances of young people in Wales. So, when can we expect firm action from this Welsh Labour Government to tackle child poverty, instead of wasting money on vanity projects like this?
Ateb diddorol iawn yno, o ystyried nad yw Plaid Lafur y DU yn cytuno â llawer iawn o'r hyn a ddywedwyd yno o gwbl ynglŷn â datganoli cyfiawnder a phlismona. Serch hynny, ni allwch hyrwyddo cyfiawnder cymdeithasol heb fynd i'r afael â thlodi plant. Yn gynharach y mis hwn, edrychodd y Centre for Cities ar dlodi plant, a chanfod mai Abertawe yw'r ddinas â’r cynnydd mwyaf mewn tlodi plant yn y Deyrnas Unedig. Os nad oeddech yn meddwl bod hynny’n ddigon damniol o waith Llywodraeth Cymru i fynd i’r afael â thlodi plant, mae’n gwaethygu pan welwch, o holl ddinasoedd y DU, nid yn unig fod Abertawe’n gyntaf, ond mae Casnewydd yn ail a Chaerdydd yn drydydd. A bellach, rydym wedi gweld Llywodraeth Cymru yn lansio strategaeth tlodi plant heb unrhyw darged nac amserlen i'w dwyn i gyfrif. Ni fydd y siop siarad gyfansoddiadol hon yn gwneud unrhyw beth i fynd i’r afael â thlodi plant yng Nghymru. Yn hytrach, mae’n costio £1.5 miliwn a mwy—arian y gellid bod wedi’i wario ar wella cyfleoedd bywyd pobl ifanc yng Nghymru. Felly, pryd y gallwn ddisgwyl camau gweithredu cadarn gan Lywodraeth Lafur Cymru i fynd i’r afael â thlodi plant, yn lle gwastraffu arian ar brosiectau porthi balchder fel hyn?
Well, I do wonder whether you would agree to devolve social security to Wales. Because, without the devolution of powers, the powers that actually impact on poverty, and social security is key to that—. And, in fact, it's not just the Equality and Human Rights Commission that shows that UK Government welfare reform since—[Interruption.] Are you listening? Llywydd? Shows that UK Government welfare reforms—. Since 2010, we've endured 13 years of austerity, but don't forget those horrendous welfare reforms since 2010 and increasing housing costs have had the most significant impact on levels of child poverty amongst working households. And it's not just—. I'm not saying that, the Equality and Human Rights Commission is saying it, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, UNICEF, are saying it is the cut in welfare benefits for children that is deepening and widening the poverty—not just, of course, in Wales, which we are tackling, with our child poverty strategy. So, yes, we have got to be held accountable for what we're responsible for, but please join us in recognising that it is the UK Government who are responsible for those key levers.
Wel, tybed a fyddech yn cytuno i ddatganoli nawdd cymdeithasol i Gymru. Oherwydd, heb ddatganoli pwerau, y pwerau sy'n cael gwir effaith ar dlodi, ac mae nawdd cymdeithasol yn allweddol i hynny—. Ac mewn gwirionedd, nid y Comisiwn Cydraddoldeb a Hawliau Dynol yn unig sy'n dangos bod diwygiadau lles Llywodraeth y DU ers—[Torri ar draws.] A ydych chi'n gwrando? Lywydd? Yn dangos bod diwygiadau lles Llywodraeth y DU—. Ers 2010, rydym wedi dioddef 13 mlynedd o gyni, ond peidiwch ag anghofio bod y diwygiadau lles erchyll hynny ers 2010 a chostau tai cynyddol wedi cael effaith sylweddol iawn ar lefelau tlodi plant ymhlith aelwydydd sy’n gweithio. Ac nid yn unig—. Nid fi sy'n dweud hynny, mae’r Comisiwn Cydraddoldeb a Hawliau Dynol yn dweud hynny, mae Sefydliad Joseph Rowntree, UNICEF, yn dweud mai’r toriad mewn budd-daliadau lles i blant sy’n dyfnhau ac yn ehangu’r tlodi—nid yng Nghymru'n unig, ac rydym yn mynd i’r afael â hynny gyda’n strategaeth tlodi plant. Felly, oes, mae'n rhaid inni fod yn atebol am yr hyn yr ydym yn gyfrifol amdano, ond ymunwch â ni i gydnabod mai Llywodraeth y DU sy'n gyfrifol am yr ysgogiadau allweddol hynny.
6. Sut y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn mynd i'r afael â thlodi plant yng Nghanolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru? OQ60599
6. How is the Welsh Government tackling child poverty in Mid and West Wales? OQ60599
Diolch yn fawr am eich cwestiwn.
Thank you very much for your question.
Just getting excited with my response to the last question—a serious response to the last question, and this follows on very well to your question, Cefin Campbell. Our child poverty strategy outlines our long-term ambition and vision for delivering for children living in poverty in Wales. I have mentioned the Welsh benefits charter; it confirms the collective commitment to improve access to financial support and has been endorsed by all 22 local authorities, including in Mid and West Wales.
Roeddwn wedi cynhyrfu gyda fy ymateb i'r cwestiwn olaf—ymateb difrifol i'r cwestiwn olaf, ac mae hyn yn dilyn ymlaen yn dda iawn o'ch cwestiwn chi, Cefin Campbell. Mae ein strategaeth tlodi plant yn amlinellu ein huchelgais a’n gweledigaeth hirdymor ar gyfer cyflawni ar ran plant sy’n byw mewn tlodi yng Nghymru. Rwyf wedi sôn am siarter budd-daliadau Cymru; mae'n cadarnhau'r ymrwymiad ar y cyd i wella mynediad at gymorth ariannol, ac mae wedi'i chymeradwyo gan bob un o'r 22 awdurdod lleol, gan gynnwys yng Nghanolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru.
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Minister, last week, you published your strategy on tackling child poverty, and I noted with particular interest this observation, and I quote:
'Rural communities can face particular challenges associated with distance from key services, limited job opportunities and low incomes, higher costs of living...public transport availability, social isolation, and restricted housing stock.'
Now, that's quite a list, and I wholeheartedly agree with this assessment, insofar as it goes, but I must admit that the rest of the strategy is unclear about what this means in terms of tackling child poverty in rural areas. The strategy, for example, doesn't offer any specific initiatives that could be used to tackle this particular policy challenge that rural poverty represents. As we know, and we've heard this already this afternoon, the strategy doesn't include targets at all, which we believe is a fundamental weakness. The old adage that what can't be measured cannot be improved is as true of child poverty as other Government policies. So, specifically, can I ask you, Minister, whether any rural-proofing was done during the period of developing the strategy, and can you commit to setting targets to tackle rural poverty?
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Weinidog, yr wythnos diwethaf, fe wnaethoch gyhoeddi eich strategaeth ar gyfer mynd i’r afael â thlodi plant, a nodais y sylw hwn gyda chryn ddiddordeb:
'Gall cymunedau gwledig wynebu heriau penodol sy'n gysylltiedig â phellter o wasanaethau allweddol, cyfleoedd cyfyngedig am swyddi ac incymau isel, costau byw uwch...argaeledd trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus, ynysigrwydd cymdeithasol a stoc dai gyfyngedig.'
Nawr, mae honno'n dipyn o restr, ac rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr â'r asesiad hwn ynddo'i hun, ond mae'n rhaid imi gyfaddef bod gweddill y strategaeth yn aneglur ynghylch beth mae hyn yn ei olygu o ran mynd i'r afael â thlodi plant mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Nid yw'r strategaeth, er enghraifft, yn cynnig unrhyw fentrau penodol y gellid eu defnyddio i fynd i'r afael â her bolisi benodol tlodi gwledig. Fel y gwyddom, ac rydym wedi clywed hyn eisoes y prynhawn yma, nid yw’r strategaeth yn cynnwys targedau o gwbl, sy’n wendid sylfaenol yn ein barn ni. Mae'r hen ddihareb na ellir gwella'r hyn na ellir ei fesur yr un mor wir am dlodi plant â pholisïau eraill y Llywodraeth. Felly, a gaf fi ofyn yn benodol i chi, Weinidog, a wnaed unrhyw brawfesur gwledig yn ystod cyfnod datblygu’r strategaeth, ac a wnewch chi ymrwymo i osod targedau i fynd i’r afael â thlodi gwledig?
Diolch yn fawr, Cefin Campbell. A really important point about how the child poverty strategy was developed in terms of consultation, a consultation that not only included the End Child Poverty Network players, the child poverty sector, but also Young Wales and the young people we engaged with across the whole of Wales, including those from rural communities, and young people with protected characteristics as well. I think all of the objectives, the five objectives, are relevant to rural communities: reducing costs, maximising the incomes of families, creating pathways out of poverty, child and family well-being. You've read the strategy. You can see that it is a strategy that covers all aspects of a child's life and their family well-being.
I think it is important, in terms of the delivery of the strategy, that we see this in the context of what we can do with our powers. It's very much a cross-Government document, as you can see, from education and employment to, obviously, social justice taking the lead, and health and social security. On those welfare benefits that we are responsible for, yes, clearly, we need to ensure that we do have that adequate take-up. I think, in terms of targets, it's useful to know, as you're aware, that we've committed to producing a framework to monitor and report on outcomes, and this is what we need. What is the impact of our work, what we're responsible for? We're not responsible for benefits, which is a key lever, or main tax powers.
We're engaging independent academic expertise from Professor Rod Hick of Cardiff University. I know he's going to come and meet with the committee, and he's certainly going to be meeting with our End Child Poverty Network reference group. He is taking into account the well-being of Wales national indicators, which we are all signed up to—those milestones in our well-being of future generations. Of course, we will share with him the importance of looking at this from a rural dimension. But I would say there's a difference when setting a target for the delivery of an individual service. An outcome, the impact, making this real change, depends on multiple services, and a whole range of economic and social factors, and the biggest impact is from benefits and social security, which are with the UK Government. So, yes, we have those targets for individual services and programmes, and, for example, advice services—a whole fleet of indicators—but it is actually the drive of the activity, and the impact of the activity that you see in that strategy, that you can monitor to see in terms of the positive impact we have, particularly in rural communities.
Diolch yn fawr, Cefin Campbell. Pwynt pwysig iawn ynglŷn â sut y datblygwyd y strategaeth tlodi plant o ran yr ymgynghoriad, ymgynghoriad a oedd nid yn unig yn cynnwys cynrychiolwyr o'r Rhwydwaith Dileu Tlodi Plant, y sector tlodi plant, ond hefyd Cymru Ifanc a’r bobl ifanc y buom yn ymgysylltu â hwy ledled Cymru, gan gynnwys y rheini o gymunedau gwledig, a phobl ifanc â nodweddion gwarchodedig hefyd. Credaf fod pob un o’r amcanion, y pum amcan, yn berthnasol i gymunedau gwledig: lleihau costau, gweithredu pwyslais ar incwm teuluoedd, creu llwybrau allan o dlodi, llesiant plant a theuluoedd. Rydych wedi darllen y strategaeth. Gallwch weld ei bod yn strategaeth sy’n cwmpasu pob agwedd ar fywyd plant a’u llesiant teuluol.
Credaf ei bod yn bwysig, o ran cyflawni’r strategaeth, ein bod yn ystyried hyn yng nghyd-destun yr hyn y gallwn ei wneud â’n pwerau. Mae'n ddogfen wirioneddol drawslywodraethol, fel y gwelwch, o addysg a chyflogaeth i gyfiawnder cymdeithasol yn arwain, ac iechyd a nawdd cymdeithasol. Ar y budd-daliadau lles yr ydym yn gyfrifol amdanynt, oes, yn amlwg, mae angen inni sicrhau bod gennym niferoedd digonol yn eu hawlio. Ar dargedau, rwy'n credu ei bod yn ddefnyddiol gwybod, fel y gwyddoch, ein bod wedi ymrwymo i lunio fframwaith i fonitro ac adrodd ar ganlyniadau, a dyma sydd ei angen arnom. Beth yw effaith ein gwaith, beth rydym yn gyfrifol amdano? Nid ydym yn gyfrifol am fudd-daliadau, sy'n ysgogiad allweddol, neu bwerau dros y prif drethi.
Rydym yn ymgysylltu ag arbenigedd academaidd annibynnol gan yr Athro Rod Hick o Brifysgol Caerdydd. Gwn y bydd yn dod i gyfarfod â'r pwyllgor, ac mae'n sicr yn mynd i fod yn cyfarfod â grŵp cyfeirio'r Rhwydwaith Dileu Tlodi Plant. Mae'n ystyried dangosyddion cenedlaethol llesiant Cymru, y mae pob un ohonom wedi ymrwymo iddynt—y cerrig milltir hynny yn neddfwriaeth llesiant cenedlaethau'r dyfodol. Wrth gwrs, byddwn yn rhannu pwysigrwydd edrych ar hyn o ddimensiwn gwledig gydag ef. Ond buaswn yn dweud bod gwahaniaeth wrth osod targed ar gyfer darparu gwasanaeth unigol. Mae sicrhau canlyniad, yr effaith, gwneud y newid gwirioneddol hwn, yn dibynnu ar sawl gwasanaeth, ac ystod gyfan o ffactorau economaidd a chymdeithasol, a daw’r effaith fwyaf drwy fudd-daliadau a nawdd cymdeithasol, a gedwir yn ôl gan Lywodraeth y DU. Felly, oes, mae gennym y targedau hynny ar gyfer gwasanaethau a rhaglenni unigol, ac er enghraifft, gwasanaethau cynghori—llu o ddangosyddion—ond mewn gwirionedd, gallwch fonitro grym y gweithgarwch hwnnw, ac effaith y gweithgarwch a welwch yn y strategaeth honno, i weld yr effaith gadarnhaol a gawn, yn enwedig mewn cymunedau gwledig.
Minister, in England, all working parents of two-year-olds will receive 15 hours per week of free childcare from April of this year. Minister, can you confirm that this will be the case in Wales, and if not, why not?
Weinidog, yn Lloegr, bydd pob rhiant sy’n gweithio a chanddynt blant dwy oed yn cael 15 awr yr wythnos o ofal plant am ddim o fis Ebrill eleni. Weinidog, a allwch gadarnhau y bydd hyn yn digwydd yng Nghymru, ac os na fydd, pam hynny?
We will see whether that is delivered. I can see that there are questions being raised in terms of the capacity of the workforce, a workforce that, of course, we are rebuilding as a result of our investment here in Wales. And of course it's the Deputy Minister for Social Services's responsibility, but it is important that we reflect on what we are doing in Wales in terms of childcare. So far, our childcare offer is the most ambitious across the UK, but I think our investment in Flying Start—and I think that again is a really important investment that we share in our co-operation agreement—that is the proof of what we are doing. Despite 13 years of austerity and the slashing of Sure Start years ago in England, we have continued to invest in Flying Start.
And can I just say that Flying Start actually reaches the most disadvantaged children, the very children that we are supporting through our child poverty strategy? And that's just revenue and capital. The expansion of that, I hope, you will have seen, Russell, in your constituency, as I know the Deputy Minister and, I think, the designated Member saw in Wrexham last week, the impact of our investment in Flying Start. And that provides free childcare, which, of course, in our agreement, is going to roll out to all two-year-olds in Wales.
Cawn weld a gaiff hynny ei gyflawni. Gallaf weld bod cwestiynau’n cael eu codi ynglŷn â chapasiti’r gweithlu, gweithlu yr ydym yn ei ailadeiladu, wrth gwrs, o ganlyniad i’n buddsoddiad yma yng Nghymru. Ac wrth gwrs, cyfrifoldeb y Dirprwy Weinidog Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yw hyn, ond mae'n bwysig inni fyfyrio ar yr hyn a wnawn yng Nghymru gyda gofal plant. Hyd yn hyn, ein cynnig gofal plant yw’r mwyaf uchelgeisiol yn y DU, ond credaf fod ein buddsoddiad yn Dechrau’n Deg—a chredaf, unwaith eto, fod hwnnw'n fuddsoddiad pwysig iawn a rannwn yn ein cytundeb cydweithio—yn brawf o’r hyn a wnawn. Er gwaethaf 13 mlynedd o gyni a thorri Cychwyn Cadarn yn Lloegr flynyddoedd yn ôl, rydym wedi parhau i fuddsoddi yn Dechrau’n Deg.
Ac a gaf i ddweud bod Dechrau'n Deg yn cyrraedd y plant mwyaf difreintiedig, yr union blant a gefnogir gennym drwy ein strategaeth tlodi plant? A dim ond refeniw a chyfalaf yw hynny. Rwy'n gobeithio y byddwch wedi gweld hynny'n cael ei ymestyn yn eich etholaeth chi, Russell, fel y gwn fod y Dirprwy Weinidog a'r Aelod dynodedig, rwy'n credu, wedi gweld effaith ein buddsoddiad yn Dechrau’n Deg yn Wrecsam yr wythnos diwethaf. Ac mae hynny'n darparu gofal plant am ddim, sydd, wrth gwrs, yn ein cytundeb, ac sy'n mynd i gael ei gyflwyno i bob plentyn dwy oed yng Nghymru.
Good afternoon, Minister. Last week, we also discussed our report, 'Calling time on child poverty', and indeed the week before, when we reported on it. And I'm grateful to you for your commitment to some of the key recommendations. But the one that you rejected outright, recommendation 6, is the one that I wanted to focus on, particularly with regard to Cefin Campbell's question around rural child poverty. We've called, and that's recommendation 6, for a dedicated Minister for babies, children and young people. Your response is that child poverty, and indeed poverty, is a responsibility across all the ministerial portfolios. So, could I ask you: to what level do you anticipate that the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales will be able to prioritise rural poverty? Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Prynhawn da, Weinidog. Yr wythnos diwethaf, buom hefyd yn trafod ein hadroddiad, 'Amser rhoi diwedd ar dlodi plant’, ac yn wir, yr wythnos cynt, pan wnaethom adrodd arno. Ac rwy'n ddiolchgar i chi am eich ymrwymiad i rai o'r argymhellion allweddol. Ond yr un y gwnaethoch ei wrthod yn llwyr, argymhelliad 6, yw’r un yr oeddwn am ganolbwyntio arno, yn enwedig mewn perthynas â chwestiwn Cefin Campbell ynghylch tlodi plant gwledig. Rydym wedi galw, yn argymhelliad 6, am Weinidog penodedig ar gyfer babanod, plant a phobl ifanc. Eich ymateb yw bod tlodi plant, a thlodi yn wir, yn gyfrifoldeb ar draws yr holl bortffolios gweinidogol. Felly, a gaf i ofyn i chi: i ba lefel y rhagwelwch y bydd y Gweinidog Materion Gwledig a Gogledd Cymru yn gallu blaenoriaethu tlodi gwledig? Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Diolch yn fawr. I did struggle over that recommendation, because I could understand where it came from; I could understand the evidence from my colleagues, not just on the Equality and Social Justice Committee, but the Children, Young People and Education Committee. Actually, it reminds me of the discussions that we had yesterday. Yes, if we had a big enough Senedd, with a Government that could actually meet all of the specific needs that we know need to be addressed, and I feel it's another big case in point for our Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill, which, of course, got through its general principles yesterday. But it is up to the next First Minister in terms of portfolio arrangements. I would say that the child poverty strategy went to the Cabinet at least twice. It went in its draft form, it went in its final form. The whole Cabinet had to sign up to it. And I think the points that have been made by you, Jane Dodds, and Cefin Campbell today about the rural dimension are really important, and I will be discussing those with the Minister for rural affairs as we implement now the child poverty strategy.
Diolch yn fawr. Cefais drafferth gyda'r argymhelliad hwnnw, gan y gallwn ddeall y rhesymeg y tu ôl iddo; gallwn ddeall y dystiolaeth gan fy nghyd-Aelodau, nid yn unig ar y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb a Chyfiawnder Cymdeithasol, ond y Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg. A dweud y gwir, mae’n fy atgoffa o’r trafodaethau a gawsom ddoe. Mae'n wir, pe bai gennym Senedd ddigon mawr, gyda Llywodraeth a allai ddiwallu’r holl anghenion penodol y gwyddom fod angen mynd i’r afael â hwy, ac rwy’n teimlo ei fod yn achos pwysig arall ar gyfer ein Bil Senedd Cymru (Aelodau ac Etholiadau), y derbyniwyd ei egwyddorion cyffredinol ddoe, wrth gwrs. Ond mater i’r Prif Weinidog nesaf yw trefniadau portffolio. Carwn ddweud bod y strategaeth tlodi plant wedi'i chyflwyno i'r Cabinet o leiaf ddwywaith. Daeth ar ei ffurf ddrafft, daeth ar ei ffurf derfynol. Roedd yn rhaid i'r Cabinet cyfan ymrwymo iddi. A chredaf fod y pwyntiau a wnaed gennych chi, Jane Dodds, a Cefin Campbell heddiw ynglŷn â'r dimensiwn gwledig yn wirioneddol bwysig, a byddaf yn trafod y rheini gyda’r Gweinidog materion gwledig wrth inni roi’r strategaeth tlodi plant ar waith yn awr.
7. Pa asesiad y mae'r Gweinidog wedi ei wneud o'r cysylltiad rhwng tlodi a'r lefel uchel o ysmygu ymysg merched beichiog yn Arfon? OQ60597
7. What assessment has the Minister made of the link between poverty and the high level of smoking amongst pregnant women in Arfon? OQ60597
Rydyn ni'n gwybod bod y bobl sy'n byw yn ein cymunedau lleiaf cyfoethog yn fwy tebygol o ysmygu nag yn yr ardaloedd mwyaf cyfoethog. Mae effaith y defnydd o dybaco, yn enwedig yn ystod beichiogrwydd, yn elfen allweddol o'r anghydraddoldebau iechyd dwfn y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn mynd i'r afael â nhw.
We know that people living in our least well-off communities are more likely to smoke than those living in the most affluent areas. The impact of tobacco use, particularly during pregnancy, is a key component of the deep-rooted health inequalities that the Welsh Government is tackling.
Diolch am yr ateb yna. Yng Ngwynedd, mae 16.5 y cant o'r boblogaeth yn ysmygu, un o'r canrannau uchaf yng Nghymru. Mae'r ffigwr hwn yn cynnwys mamau beichiog. Ar draws Cymru, mae un o bob 10 o famau beichiog yn ysmygu, gan beryglu eu hiechyd eu hunain ac iechyd eu babanod, wrth gwrs, ac mae yna dystiolaeth gynyddol ar gael sy'n dangos bod yna gysylltiad rhwng tlodi a lefelau uchel o ysmygu ymhlith mamau beichiog. Ydy'r cynllun peilot sy'n ceisio cefnogi merched beichiog i roi’r gorau i ysmygu, sydd ar waith yn sir Ddinbych yn ardal Bwrdd Iechyd Betsi Cadwaladr, yn cyfarch y cysylltiad rhwng tlodi ac ysmygu ymhlith mamau beichiog? A pha wersi sydd yna i'w dysgu cyn belled o'r peilot pwysig yma?
Thank you very much for that response. In Gwynedd, 16.5 per cent of the population are smokers, one of the highest percentages in Wales. This figure includes pregnant women. Across Wales, one in 10 pregnant women smokes, putting at risk their own health as well as the health of their babies, and there is increasing evidence available that shows that the link between poverty and high levels of smoking among pregnant women is a real factor. So, does the pilot scheme that seeks to support pregnant women to give up tobacco, which is operational in Denbighshire in the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board area, actually address the link between poverty and smoking among pregnant women? And what lessons can be learned so far from this important pilot?
Diolch am y cwestiwn pellach. Dwi'n cytuno ei fod yn bwysig i helpu pobl i roi'r gorau i ysmygu.
Thank you very much for your supplementary question. I agree that it's important to help people to cease smoking.
You referenced the Betsi Cadwaladr pilots—that's the targeted smoking cessation support offered to pregnant people in Wales. They've implemented the 'Help me quit for baby' service model, which I understand offers specialist, bespoke and flexible support for smokers, and has taken in the wider, perhaps living and environmental, concerns as well. It not only offers pregnant people, but others in the household, the chance to get help from their own personal stop-smoking adviser every week, plus free stop-smoking medicines worth up to £250, and home visits are also offered to help increase access to 'Help me quit' services.
I know you focused on the pilot in a particular area, but in the area of Arfon, I know that there are two specialist advisers who provide support for pregnant people and others in the household who smoke. The incentive schemes also have a pilot to target pregnant people from less affluent areas, and young, pregnant smokers who are less likely to quit. I'm more than happy to liaise with my colleague the Deputy Minister for health, and to provide a further update on the progress of that pilot and actually how those lessons can be applied elsewhere in the community, right across north Wales.
Fe gyfeirioch chi at gynlluniau peilot Betsi Cadwaladr—y cymorth wedi'i dargedu ar gyfer rhoi'r gorau i ysmygu a gynigir i bobl feichiog yng Nghymru. Maent wedi rhoi’r model gwasanaeth ‘Helpa fi i stopio i fy mabi’ ar waith, a deallaf ei fod yn cynnig cymorth arbenigol, pwrpasol a hyblyg i ysmygwyr, a hefyd wedi ystyried y pryderon byw ac amgylcheddol ehangach, o bosibl. Mae’n cynnig cyfle nid yn unig i bobl feichiog, ond i eraill yn y cartref gael cymorth gan eu cynghorydd rhoi’r gorau i ysmygu personol eu hunain bob wythnos, yn ogystal â meddyginiaethau rhoi’r gorau i ysmygu am ddim gwerth hyd at £250, a chynigir ymweliadau cartref hefyd i helpu i gynyddu mynediad at wasanaethau 'Helpa fi i stopio'.
Gwn ichi ganolbwyntio ar y cynllun peilot mewn ardal benodol, ond yn ardal Arfon, gwn fod dau gynghorydd arbenigol sy’n rhoi cymorth i bobl feichiog ac eraill ar yr aelwyd sy’n ysmygu. Mae gan y cynlluniau cymhelliant gynllun peilot hefyd i dargedu pobl feichiog o ardaloedd llai cefnog, ac ysmygwyr ifanc beichiog sy’n llai tebygol o roi’r gorau iddi. Rwy’n fwy na pharod i gysylltu â’m cyd-Aelod, y Dirprwy Weinidog iechyd, a rhoi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf ar gynnydd y cynllun peilot hwnnw a sut y gellir cyflwyno'r gwersi hynny mewn mannau eraill yn y gymuned, ar draws gogledd Cymru.
8. A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am weithredu Cynllun Gweithredu Cymru Wrth-hiliol? OQ60619
8. Will the Minister provide an update on the implementation of the Anti-racist Wales Action Plan? OQ60619
Thank you for that question. The 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' is vital for achieving our goal of becoming an anti-racist nation by 2030. We are committed to transparency and openly sharing progress against the plan, and our first annual report was published on 1 December 2023.
Diolch am eich cwestiwn. Mae ‘Cynllun Gweithredu Cymru Wrth-hiliol’ yn hanfodol ar gyfer cyflawni ein nod o ddod yn genedl wrth-hiliol erbyn 2030. Rydym wedi ymrwymo i dryloywder a rhannu cynnydd yn erbyn y cynllun yn agored, a chyhoeddwyd ein hadroddiad blynyddol cyntaf ar 1 Rhagfyr 2023.
Minister, I think we need to see a step change in Wales in terms of tackling racism, and in order to do that we need the delivery of public services to move on markedly in understanding the issues around racism and delivering for our diverse communities, and we need organisations to show a good example. I'd like to cite two that I'm aware of locally in Newport East, Minister, and one is Llanwern High School, which has been cited by Estyn as doing some really good work around refugees and asylum seekers, and has some very good policies and activities around diversity in general, and the other is Muslim Doctors Cymru, which did some really good work during the pandemic in reaching out to communities around vaccination and accessing healthcare services more generally, and is now continuing that work. Just the other week, they held a session with a number of health professionals in a mosque in Newport East, reaching out into the community to people who, perhaps, wouldn't otherwise access those important tests and services.
Weinidog, credaf fod angen inni weld newid sylweddol yng Nghymru ar fynd i’r afael â hiliaeth, ac er mwyn gwneud hynny, mae angen i ddarpariaeth gwasanaethau cyhoeddus wneud cryn dipyn o gynnydd ar ddeall y materion sy’n ymwneud â hiliaeth a chyflawni ar gyfer ein cymunedau amrywiol, ac mae arnom angen i sefydliadau ddangos esiampl dda. Hoffwn nodi dau y gwn amdanynt yn lleol yn Nwyrain Casnewydd, Weinidog, ac un yw Ysgol Uwchradd Llanwern, sydd wedi’i nodi gan Estyn fel un sy’n gwneud gwaith da iawn mewn perthynas â ffoaduriaid a cheiswyr lloches, ac mae ganddi bolisïau a gweithgareddau da iawn yn ymwneud ag amrywiaeth yn gyffredinol, a’r llall yw Muslim Doctors Cymru, a wnaeth waith da iawn yn ystod y pandemig wrth estyn allan i gymunedau mewn perthynas â brechu a mynediad at wasanaethau gofal iechyd yn fwy cyffredinol, ac sydd bellach yn parhau â’r gwaith hwnnw. Yr wythnos o'r blaen, fe wnaethant gynnal sesiwn gyda nifer o weithwyr iechyd proffesiynol mewn mosg yn Nwyrain Casnewydd, gan estyn allan i’r gymuned at bobl na fyddent fel arall, efallai, yn manteisio ar y profion a’r gwasanaethau pwysig hynny fel arall.
Diolch yn fawr, John Griffiths, for drawing attention again to those two examples of delivery of the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', in a school and in a community organisation in Newport, because as you say, we need a step change in the delivery of public services.
I think, just in terms of looking quickly at health, because every Minister, every department—. You'll see from the annual report what's being achieved. In the health sector, we've got the workforce race equality standard for Wales, and that's going to identify and measure progress in the NHS and social care workforce on race equality across primary, secondary and social care. And also, just in terms of education, I believe that the education Minister launched the new curriculum for the mandatory learning of anti-racist heritage and history in Wales at Llanwern school, and the pioneering work of the diversity and anti-racist professional learning project. So, I think it is now being embedded into public services and, although, clearly, we have a long way to go, it is as a result of those examples.
Can I just again praise that community for the work in the mosque, because it was Muslim Doctors Cymru who actually did a great deal of work during the pandemic in terms of raising awareness and tackling myths about vaccination? The Muslim doctors, I think, played a big part in Newport, as well as the rest of Wales.
Diolch yn fawr, John Griffiths, am dynnu sylw unwaith eto at y ddwy enghraifft hynny o roi 'Cynllun Gweithredu Cymru Wrth-hiliol' ar waith, mewn ysgol ac mewn sefydliad cymunedol yng Nghasnewydd, oherwydd fel y dywedwch, mae angen newid sylweddol arnom gyda'r ddarpariaeth o wasanaethau cyhoeddus.
O edrych yn gyflym ar iechyd, gan fod pob Gweinidog, pob adran—. Fe welwch yr hyn sy'n cael ei gyflawni o'r adroddiad blynyddol. Yn y sector iechyd, mae gennym safon cydraddoldeb hiliol y gweithlu ar gyfer Cymru, ac mae honno'n mynd i nodi a mesur cynnydd yng ngweithlu'r GIG a gofal cymdeithasol ar gydraddoldeb hiliol ar draws gofal sylfaenol, eilaidd a chymdeithasol. A hefyd, o ran addysg, credaf fod y Gweinidog addysg wedi lansio’r cwricwlwm newydd gorfodol ar gyfer dysgu treftadaeth a hanes gwrth-hiliaeth yng Nghymru yn Ysgol Llanwern, a gwaith arloesol y prosiect dysgu proffesiynol amrywiaeth a gwrth-hiliaeth. Felly, credaf ei fod bellach yn cael ei ymgorffori mewn gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, ac, er bod gennym lawer o ffordd i fynd, mae'n digwydd o ganlyniad i’r enghreifftiau hynny.
A gaf i ganmol y gymuned honno unwaith eto am y gwaith yn y mosg, gan fod Muslim Doctors Cymru wedi gwneud llawer iawn o waith yn ystod y pandemig ar godi ymwybyddiaeth a mynd i'r afael â mythau ynglŷn â brechu? Rwy'n credu bod y meddygon Mwslimaidd wedi chwarae rhan fawr yng Nghasnewydd, yn ogystal â gweddill Cymru.
Diolch i'r Gweinidog a'r Dirprwy Weinidog.
I thank the Minister and Deputy Minister.
Yr eitem nesaf, felly, yw'r cwestiynau i'r Cwnsler Cyffredinol a Gweinidog y Cyfansoddiad. Y cwestiwn cyntaf, Jack Sargeant.
The next item is questions to the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution. The first question is from Jack Sargeant.
1. Pa asesiad y mae'r Cwnsler Cyffredinol wedi'i wneud o nifer y trigolion yng Nghymru y mae sgandal Horizon Swyddfa'r Post wedi effeithio arnynt? OQ60616
1. What assessment has the Counsel General made of the number of Welsh residents impacted by the Post Office Horizon scandal? OQ60616
Thank you for the question. Not even the Post Office can identify the number of people impacted by the Horizon scandal. Across the entire United Kingdom, even beyond, some former sub-postmasters are only now realising that they may have been the victim of one of the most widespread miscarriages of justice and failures of the legal system that the United Kingdom has ever known.
Diolch am y cwestiwn. Ni all hyd yn oed Swyddfa'r Post nodi nifer y bobl y mae sgandal Horizon yn effeithio arnynt. Ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig gyfan, a'r tu hwnt i hynny hyd yn oed, nid yw rhai cyn is-bostfeistri ond yn sylweddoli nawr eu bod o bosibl wedi dioddef un o'r enghreifftiau mwyaf o gamweinyddu cyfiawnder a methiannau mwyaf eang y system gyfreithiol a welodd y Deyrnas Unedig erioed.
I thank the Counsel General for his answer. If the Llywydd will let me place on record an update from Neil Hudgell from Hudgell Solicitors. He's the solicitor who has supported a number of sub-postmasters in overturning their criminal convictions in the High Court in London. Presiding Officer, he says that close to 450 new requests for legal support have come forward since the ITV drama. These include 52 people with convictions and potentially hundreds who are undercompensated. As the Counsel General said in his first answer, the Post Office don’t know what the extent of this miscarriage of justice really is. We know that there are Welsh residents included in the figures I’ve just quoted from Hudgell Solicitors, and we know there are likely to be a lot more individuals and groups that have yet to come forward. Can I ask the Counsel General what conversations he’s had with ministerial colleagues in the Welsh Government about the importance of supporting Welsh residents who are victims of this deep, deep miscarriage of justice?
Diolch i'r Cwnsler Cyffredinol am ei ateb. Os gwnaiff y Llywydd adael imi roi diweddariad gan Neil Hudgell o Hudgell Solicitors. Ef yw'r cyfreithiwr sydd wedi cynorthwyo nifer o is-bostfeistri i wrthdroi eu heuogfarnau troseddol yn yr Uchel Lys yn Llundain. Lywydd, mae'n dweud bod bron i 450 o geisiadau newydd am gymorth cyfreithiol wedi'u cyflwyno ers drama ITV. Mae'r rhain yn cynnwys 52 o bobl gydag euogfarnau a channoedd o bosibl sydd heb gael iawndal priodol. Fel y dywedodd y Cwnsler Cyffredinol yn ei ateb cyntaf, nid yw Swyddfa'r Post yn gwybod beth yw hyd a lled yr enghraifft hon o gamweinyddu cyfiawnder mewn gwirionedd. Rydym yn gwybod bod trigolion Cymru wedi'u cynnwys yn y ffigurau a ddyfynnais yn awr gan Hudgell Solicitors, ac rydym yn gwybod ei bod yn debygol y bydd llawer mwy o unigolion a grwpiau nad ydynt wedi camu ymlaen eto. A gaf i ofyn i'r Cwnsler Cyffredinol pa sgyrsiau a gafodd gyda chyd-Weinidogion yn Llywodraeth Cymru am bwysigrwydd cefnogi trigolion o Gymru sydd wedi dioddef yn sgil y camweinyddu cyfiawnder enfawr hwn?
Can I thank you for the question and also thank you for continuing to monitor and raise this particular issue? It is, in many ways, not just about the Horizon issue; it is also about how this managed to happen within our legal system.
As the First Minister reported some time back, I actually wrote to the Lord Chancellor generally on this back in September 2021. About six months later, I received a reply from the Minister for small business, Paul Scully—that was in February 2022. I know that questions have also gone, on a number of occasions, to the Deputy Minister as well, and, indeed, to others. Can I say that this is a matter that we are all aware of? And can I say also that I raised it only last week when I was in Scotland at the second meeting of the justice inter-ministerial group, where there were reports on the situation in Scotland as well as in England from Lord Bellamy, the under-secretary for justice? That is something that is going to continue.
You've raised in the past on this the issue of the duty of candour, which I think is fundamental. There is the issue of compensation, which is fundamental. I do not understand why that cannot be dealt with by the inquiry, but it is being excluded from that. There is the issue of the revocation of the convictions, and, sadly, I think I recognise that there probably has to be legislation to revoke. It is really an incredibly difficult position to be in where Government has to legislate in respect of decisions of the courts and the justice system, and it is an intrusion that we need to be very, very wary of. I think the position that most of us have taken, and most of the law officers have taken as well, is that this is such an extraordinary and exceptional situation that it has to happen. There is also the issue of the use of private prosecutions, and we've seen other issues to do with the warrants of execution, which you've raised before.
Can I say one other thing that's really important as well? We are now becoming aware of certain Welsh citizens, and indeed people from around the UK, in respect of the system before Horizon. There was a Mr Lewis from Ebbw Vale, a former auditor within the Post Office. He pled guilty to five charges, including theft and false accounting, and had a 12-month probation order. Another individual, a Mrs Roberts from Wirral, who kept the books for her sub-postmaster husband, refused to plead guilty for something she said she hadn't done when losses of £46,000 were discovered. This is the Capture system that has emerged. And I think that it's very, very important that that is also dealt with, because this is a sort of Pandora's box that seems to go back further and raises all sorts of other issues—more modern issues in respect of artificial intelligence and the use of technology.
But can I also say that I have written to Kevin Hollinrake, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Enterprise, Markets and Small Business? I've raised the issue of the Welsh case and the Capture system. I've suggested that this is a matter that clearly links in with the issues that the inquiry is considering, and asked to ensure that the remit of that inquiry would also allow this to happen. But this is a further area that needs to be investigated.
A gaf i ddiolch i chi am y cwestiwn a diolch i chi hefyd am barhau i fonitro a chodi'r mater penodol hwn? Mewn sawl ffordd, mae'n ymwneud â mwy na mater Horizon yn unig; mae hefyd yn ymwneud â sut y bu i hyn ddigwydd o fewn ein system gyfreithiol.
Fel yr adroddodd y Prif Weinidog beth amser yn ôl, ysgrifennais at yr Arglwydd Ganghellor yn gyffredinol ar hyn yn ôl ym mis Medi 2021. Tua chwe mis yn ddiweddarach, cefais ateb gan y Gweinidog busnesau bach, Paul Scully—hynny ym mis Chwefror 2022. Gwn fod cwestiynau hefyd wedi mynd, ar sawl achlysur, at y Dirprwy Weinidog hefyd, ac i eraill yn wir. A gaf i ddweud bod hwn yn fater yr ydym i gyd yn ymwybodol ohono? Ac a gaf i ddweud hefyd imi ei godi yr wythnos diwethaf pan oeddwn yn yr Alban yn ail gyfarfod y grŵp rhyngweinidogol ar gyfiawnder, lle cafwyd adroddiadau ar y sefyllfa yn yr Alban yn ogystal ag yn Lloegr gan yr Arglwydd Bellamy, yr is-ysgrifennydd dros gyfiawnder? Mae hynny'n rhywbeth sy'n mynd i barhau.
Rydych chi wedi codi mater dyletswydd gonestrwydd yn y gorffennol yn y cyd-destun hwn, ac mae hynny'n hanfodol yn fy marn i. Mae mater iawndal yn hanfodol hefyd. Nid wyf yn deall pam na all yr ymchwiliad ymdrin â hyn, ond mae'n cael ei hepgor ohono. Mae mater yn codi gyda dirymu'r euogfarnau, ac yn anffodus, rwy'n credu fy mod yn cydnabod bod yn rhaid cael deddfwriaeth i'w dirymu mae'n debyg. Mae'n sefyllfa anodd iawn lle mae'n rhaid i'r Llywodraeth ddeddfu mewn perthynas â phenderfyniadau'r llysoedd a'r system gyfiawnder, ac mae'n ymyrraeth y mae angen inni fod yn wyliadwrus iawn ohoni. Rwy'n credu mai'r safbwynt y mae'r rhan fwyaf ohonom wedi'i gymryd, a'r rhan fwyaf o swyddogion y gyfraith hefyd, yw bod hon yn sefyllfa mor eithriadol ac anarferol fel bod yn rhaid iddo ddigwydd. Mae mater defnyddio erlyniadau preifat yn codi hefyd, ac rydym wedi gweld materion eraill yn ymwneud â'r gwarantau i weithredu a godwyd gennych o'r blaen.
A gaf i ddweud un peth arall sy'n bwysig hefyd? Rydym bellach yn dod yn ymwybodol o rai dinasyddion yng Nghymru, a phobl o bob cwr o'r DU yn wir, mewn perthynas â'r system cyn Horizon. Roedd yna Mr Lewis o Lyn Ebwy, cyn-archwilydd yn Swyddfa'r Post. Plediodd yn euog i bum cyhuddiad, gan gynnwys dwyn a chyfrifo ffug, a chafodd orchymyn prawf o 12 mis. Gwrthododd unigolyn arall, Mrs Roberts o Wirral, a gadwai'r llyfrau i'w gŵr a oedd yn is-bostfeistr, bledio'n euog am rywbeth y dywedodd nad oedd wedi'i wneud pan ddarganfuwyd colledion o £46,000. Dyma system Capture sydd wedi dod i'r amlwg. Ac rwy'n credu ei bod hi'n bwysig iawn fod hynny'n cael sylw hefyd, oherwydd mae hwn yn fath o flwch Pandora sy'n ymddangos fel pe bai'n mynd yn ôl ymhellach ac yn codi pob math o gwestiynau eraill—cwestiynau mwy modern mewn perthynas â deallusrwydd artiffisial a'r defnydd o dechnoleg.
Ond a gaf i ddweud hefyd fy mod i wedi ysgrifennu at Kevin Hollinrake, Is-ysgrifennydd Gwladol Seneddol dros Fenter, Marchnadoedd a Busnesau Bach? Rwyf wedi codi mater yr achos yng Nghymru a system Capture. Rwyf wedi awgrymu bod hwn yn fater sy'n cysylltu'n glir â'r materion y mae'r ymchwiliad yn eu hystyried, ac wedi gofyn am sicrwydd y byddai cylch gwaith yr ymchwiliad hwnnw hefyd yn caniatáu i hyn ddigwydd. Ond mae hwn yn faes arall y mae angen ymchwilio iddo.
2. Pa asesiad y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi'i wneud o effaith argymhellion y Comisiwn Annibynnol ar Ddyfodol Cyfansoddiadol Cymru ar ddatganoli polisi ynni? OQ60602
2. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales's recommendations on the devolution of energy policy? OQ60602
Thank you. The devolution settlement in relation to energy is indeed complex, and the conclusions and recommendations of the independent commission’s report demand thoughtful and considered attention. So, we will be considering the report in the coming weeks.
Diolch. Mae'r setliad datganoli mewn perthynas ag ynni yn gymhleth iawn, ac mae casgliadau ac argymhellion adroddiad y comisiwn annibynnol yn mynnu sylw meddylgar ac ystyriol. Felly, byddwn yn ystyried yr adroddiad yn ystod yr wythnosau nesaf.
Diolch yn fawr iawn am eich ymateb. Allaf i ofyn i chi yn benodol i amlinellu i ni gynlluniau Llywodraeth Cymru i weithredu'r hyn y mae'r comisiwn wedi ei awgrymu ar ddatganoli ynni? I fod yn glir, mae'r comisiwn wedi galw am sefydlu grŵp arbenigol i roi cyngor ar frys ar sut y gellir diwygio'r setliad datganoli a chreu gwell cysylltiad rhwng Llywodraethau a'i gilydd, i hwyluso ailstrwythuro'r sector ynni. Yn ôl y comisiwn, mae hyn yn angenrheidiol i baratoi ar gyfer arloesi ym myd technoleg, i sicrhau y gall Cymru gyrraedd ei thargedau sero net ac i hwyluso cynhyrchu ynni lleol. Hefyd, dwi'n sylwi bod y comisiwn wedi argymell datganoli Ystad y Goron, ac mae'r comisiwn wedi awgrymu y gallai'r grŵp ymgynghorol hwn ar ynni roi cyngor ar opsiynau ar gyfer cyflawni hyn. Gaf i ofyn felly pryd yn union y gallwn ni ddisgwyl gweld sefydlu'r grŵp ymgynghorol hwn, beth yw'r amserlen, beth fydd ei gylch gorchwyl, a phryd yn benodol y gallwn ni ddisgwyl gweld symud ar ddatganoli Ystad y Goron?
Thank you very much for your response. May I ask you specifically to outline for us the Welsh Government's plans to implement what the commission has suggested on the devolution of energy? To be clear, the commission has called for the establishment of an expert group to provide urgent advice on how the devolution settlement can be amended and to create a better connection between Governments, to facilitate the restructuring of the energy sector. According to the commission, this is vital to prepare for innovation in terms of technology, to ensure that Wales can reach its net-zero target and to facilitate the production of local energy. I also note that the commission has recommended devolving the Crown Estate, and the commission has suggested that this advisory group on energy could provide advice on options to achieve this. So, can I ask exactly when we can expect to see the establishment of this advisory group, what the timetable is, what its remit will be, and when, specifically, we can expect to see movement on the devolution of the Crown Estate?
Thank you for the question. You do raise a very important issue with regard to energy, and, indeed, legislation that has been going through the UK Parliament in respect of energy, which impacts on Wales, and of course you will have seen the legislative consent memoranda in respect of that. It is important to recognise that we've just had the commission report; it does need very careful thought and consideration. There will be a very detailed debate in the Senedd on a date in the not-too-distant future. I know that is being planned, in order to give people time to consider carefully that.
I note also that what the commission say in respect of energy, of course, is they recognise that they've only really been able to scratch the surface of it, but they make a number of important points. They say that energy generation and distribution is an area where the binary—devolved or reserved—nature does not sit easily with the practical realities of delivery, and I think that's something that we probably all agree with across all political parties. They also say that some of the current reservations seem outdated and lacking strategic rationale, such as local heating systems and energy efficiency. And I think that is something that is probably uncontroversial. They also say the role of the regulator in relation to energy is crucial, but that, in fact, we have no formal role within that. And again, I think that is particularly important.
What they do recommend is the establishment, as you say, of a review of the inter-governmental relations that exist, and also in relation to the Crown Estate, which is totally interlinked with this. And they ask for an expert group. Well, I'm sure the issue of expert advice, assistance, and so on, in the whole energy area is something that will be very, very carefully considered, and also considered by the Minister for Climate Change in how to take this forward. I'm not in a position to give you those specific answers, but those are clearly ones that will be considered by the Minister and by the Welsh Government, and will certainly feature, I think importantly, in future discussions.
Diolch am y cwestiwn. Rydych yn codi mater pwysig iawn ynglŷn ag ynni, ac yn wir, deddfwriaeth a aeth drwy Senedd y DU mewn perthynas ag ynni, sy'n effeithio ar Gymru, ac wrth gwrs fe fyddwch wedi gweld y memoranda cydsyniad deddfwriaethol mewn perthynas â hynny. Mae'n bwysig cydnabod ein bod newydd gael adroddiad y comisiwn; mae angen ei ystyried yn ofalus iawn. Bydd dadl fanwl iawn yn y Senedd ar ddyddiad yn y dyfodol agos. Rwy'n gwybod bod hynny'n cael ei gynllunio, er mwyn rhoi amser i bobl ystyried hynny'n ofalus.
Sylwaf hefyd mai'r hyn y mae'r comisiwn yn ei ddweud am ynni, wrth gwrs, yw eu bod yn cydnabod mai dim ond crafu'r wyneb y maent wedi gallu ei wneud mewn gwirionedd, ond maent yn gwneud nifer o bwyntiau pwysig. Maent yn dweud bod cynhyrchu a dosbarthu ynni yn faes lle nad yw'r elfen ddeuol—wedi'i ddatganoli neu heb ei ddatganoli—yn cyd-fynd yn hawdd â realiti ymarferol y ddarpariaeth, a chredaf fod hynny'n rhywbeth yr ydym i gyd yn cytuno ag ef mae'n debyg ar draws pob plaid wleidyddol. Maent hefyd yn dweud bod rhai o'r materion a gedwir yn ôl ar hyn o bryd yn ymddangos yn hen ffasiwn a heb resymeg strategol, megis systemau gwresogi lleol ac effeithlonrwydd ynni. Ac rwy'n credu bod hynny'n rhywbeth nad yw'n ddadleuol yn ôl pob tebyg. Maent hefyd yn dweud bod rôl y rheoleiddiwr mewn perthynas ag ynni yn hanfodol, ond nad oes gennym ni unrhyw rôl ffurfiol yn hynny. Unwaith eto, rwy'n credu bod hynny'n arbennig o bwysig.
Yr hyn y maent yn ei argymell yw sefydlu adolygiad, fel y dywedwch, o'r cysylltiadau rhynglywodraethol sy'n bodoli, a hefyd mewn perthynas ag Ystad y Goron, sy'n cydgysylltu'n llwyr â hyn. Ac maent yn gofyn am grŵp arbenigol. Wel, rwy'n siŵr fod cyngor arbenigol, cymorth, ac yn y blaen, yn yr holl faes ynni yn rhywbeth a fydd yn cael ei ystyried yn ofalus iawn, ac a fydd hefyd yn cael ei ystyried gan y Gweinidog Newid Hinsawdd o ran sut i fwrw ymlaen â hyn. Nid wyf mewn sefyllfa i roi'r atebion penodol hynny i chi, ond mae'r rheini'n amlwg yn rhai a fydd yn cael eu hystyried gan y Gweinidog a chan Lywodraeth Cymru, ac yn sicr yn cael eu cynnwys mewn trafodaethau yn y dyfodol, sy'n bwysig yn fy marn i.
Cwestiynau nawr gan lefarwyr y pleidiau. Llefarydd y Ceidwadwyr, Darren Millar.
Questions now from party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Darren Millar.
Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, the First Minister said in his statement yesterday to the Senedd on the report of the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, and I quote, that he wants to continue to:
'Work for a new and successful United Kingdom, based on a far-reaching federalism.'
He said that in his 2021 manifesto pledge. The report by the commission, of course, makes multiple references to federalism as an option for the future of Wales, and it talks openly about the challenges associated with federalism, noting that only 6 per cent of the people consulted supported that view as an option for the future. So, in light of the report, does the Welsh Government still consider that pushing for federalism within the UK is a viable option?
Diolch, Lywydd. Weinidog, dywedodd y Prif Weinidog yn ei ddatganiad ddoe wrth y Senedd ar adroddiad y Comisiwn Annibynnol ar Ddyfodol Cyfansoddiadol Cymru, ac rwy'n dyfynnu, ei fod am barhau i:
'Gweithio dros Deyrnas Unedig newydd a llwyddiannus, yn seiliedig ar ffederaliaeth bellgyrhaeddol.'
Dywedodd hynny yn ei addewid maniffesto yn 2021. Mae'r adroddiad gan y comisiwn, wrth gwrs, yn gwneud cyfeiriadau lluosog at ffederaliaeth fel opsiwn ar gyfer dyfodol Cymru, ac mae'n siarad yn agored am yr heriau sy'n gysylltiedig â ffederaliaeth, gan nodi mai dim ond 6 y cant o'r bobl yr ymgynghorwyd â hwy oedd yn cefnogi'r farn honno fel opsiwn ar gyfer y dyfodol. Felly, yng ngoleuni'r adroddiad, a yw Llywodraeth Cymru yn dal i ystyried bod gwthio am ffederaliaeth o fewn y DU yn opsiwn ymarferol?
One of the difficulties with the terms—whether it's devolution, whether it's independence, whether it's federalism—is that it's very much open to pejorative interpretation as to what they mean. Quite often, I find that, when different terms are used, people are quite often talking about the same thing. So, we do have a difficulty in these debates with what is a common language.
I actually believe that the long-term constitutional structure is going to be best served by a form of federalist structure. You have to interpret what that might actually mean. Gordon Brown, in his report, basically sets out a number of principles. He talks about subsidiarity, that is that decision making should be taken as close to people as possible, and it is only those areas where there is common dependency that are the subject of broad cross-governmental and parliamentary structures and so on. That is a form of federalism. Subsidiarity is probably something we would all agree with, but what does it mean in terms of what that democratic structure might actually mean?
What I think is important in what the report has done is that it's set a framework for discussion in terms of what we need—which I think we do genuinely need in Wales, and, of course, in England, where devolution is becoming more of an issue—which is a discussion, really, on how that future will develop, how those relationships should develop, and also, how power should be exercised across the UK, particularly within the global environment we're in. So, I think it is a very valid basis for discussion.
In terms of setting a silver-bullet blueprint, the commission doesn't do that, but it does set, I think, an evidential base and a framework within which discussion on reforms can take place.
Un o'r anawsterau gyda'r termau—boed yn ddatganoli, yn annibyniaeth, neu'n ffederaliaeth—yw ei fod yn agored iawn i ddehongliad difrïol o ran yr hyn a olygant. Yn eithaf aml, pan ddefnyddir termau gwahanol, gwelaf fod pobl yn eithaf aml yn siarad am yr un peth. Felly, fe gawn anhawster yn y dadleuon hyn o ran beth sy'n iaith gyffredin.
Credaf mewn gwirionedd mai'r ffordd orau o gynnal y strwythur cyfansoddiadol hirdymor yw drwy ffurf ar strwythur ffederal. Rhaid i chi ddehongli beth y gallai hynny ei olygu mewn gwirionedd. Mae Gordon Brown, yn ei adroddiad, yn nodi nifer o egwyddorion yn y bôn. Mae'n sôn am sybsidiaredd, hynny yw, y dylid gwneud penderfyniadau mor agos â phosibl at bobl, a dim ond y meysydd lle ceir dibyniaeth gyffredin sy'n destun strwythurau trawslywodraethol a seneddol eang ac yn y blaen. Mae hynny'n fath o ffederaliaeth. Mae'n debyg fod sybsidiaredd yn rhywbeth y byddem i gyd yn cytuno ag ef, ond beth mae'n ei olygu o ran yr hyn y gallai'r strwythur democrataidd hwnnw ei olygu mewn gwirionedd?
Rwy'n credu ei bod yn bwysig fod yr adroddiad wedi gosod fframwaith ar gyfer trafod yr hyn sydd ei angen arnom—ac rwy'n credu bod gwir angen hynny arnom yng Nghymru, ac yn Lloegr wrth gwrs, lle mae datganoli yn dod yn fwy o beth—sef trafodaeth, mewn gwirionedd, ar sut y bydd y dyfodol hwnnw'n datblygu, sut y dylai'r cysylltiadau hynny ddatblygu, a hefyd, sut y dylid arfer pŵer ledled y DU, yn enwedig o fewn yr amgylchedd byd-eang yr ydym ynddo. Felly, rwy'n credu ei fod yn sail ddilys iawn ar gyfer trafodaeth.
O ran gosod glasbrint sy'n ateb i bob dim, nid yw'r comisiwn yn gwneud hynny, ond mae'n gosod sylfaen dystiolaethol a fframwaith y gellir cynnal trafodaeth ar ddiwygiadau o'i fewn.
I'm grateful for the response. Of course, I can appreciate the attraction to federalism that many people in this Chamber have expressed, and that which has been expressed, of course, in the constitution commission's report. But it doesn't address the fact that it does appear to be a deeply unpopular suggestion and way forward for the future of the constitution of the United Kingdom.
Because we're talking about the constitution of the United Kingdom, as I said initially at the outset of this constitution commission, it did seem rather strange that Wales was going it alone in order to try to develop a conversation, within Wales, and across the UK, about the future of the UK. Because, of course, we had a unilateral report commissioned by the Welsh Government, rather than something commissioned by all the nations and constituent parts of the United Kingdom, which I feel would have been a much better and more appropriate way forward, particularly given that one of the criticisms in the report is the lack of joint working between the various Governments across the United Kingdom.
So, can I ask you this? What conversations does the Welsh Government now intend to take forward with other devolved Governments in the UK, and with the UK Government, regardless of which colour of rosette the Prime Minister might wear at the next general election? Because we're never going to achieve any progress on these matters unless there is a UK-wide conversation that now takes place. So, how are you trying to bring people to the table to have that conversation?
Diolch am yr ymateb. Wrth gwrs, gallaf ddeall yr atyniad at ffederaliaeth y mae llawer o bobl yn y Siambr hon wedi'i fynegi, a'r hyn a fynegwyd, wrth gwrs, yn adroddiad comisiwn y cyfansoddiad. Ond nid yw'n mynd i'r afael â'r ffaith ei fod yn ymddangos yn awgrym a ffordd ymlaen hynod o amhoblogaidd i ddyfodol cyfansoddiad y Deyrnas Unedig.
Oherwydd ein bod yn sôn am gyfansoddiad y Deyrnas Unedig, fel y dywedais ar y dechrau, pan ddechreuodd y comisiwn ar y cyfansoddiad, roedd yn ymddangos braidd yn rhyfedd fod Cymru'n gweithredu ar ei phen ei hun er mwyn ceisio datblygu sgwrs, yng Nghymru, ac ar draws y DU, am ddyfodol y DU. Oherwydd cawsom adroddiad unochrog a gomisiynwyd gan Lywodraeth Cymru wrth gwrs, yn hytrach na rhywbeth a gomisiynwyd gan yr holl genhedloedd a rhannau cyfansoddol y Deyrnas Unedig, y teimlaf y byddai wedi bod yn ffordd lawer gwell a mwy priodol ymlaen, yn enwedig o gofio mai un feirniadaeth yn yr adroddiad yw'r diffyg cydweithio rhwng y gwahanol Lywodraethau ledled y Deyrnas Unedig.
Felly, a gaf i ofyn hyn i chi? Pa sgyrsiau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru bellach yn bwriadu eu datblygu gyda Llywodraethau datganoledig eraill yn y DU, a chyda Llywodraeth y DU, beth bynnag fydd plaid y Prif Weinidog yn yr etholiad cyffredinol nesaf? Oherwydd ni fyddwn byth yn llwyddo i gyflawni unrhyw gynnydd ar y materion hyn oni bai bod yna sgwrs yn cael ei chynnal ledled y DU. Felly, sut rydych chi'n ceisio dod â phobl at y bwrdd i gael y sgwrs honno?
Can I thank you? I think you raise some very important issues, and I think you raise them in a very constructive way. It is an important part of this sort of debate to ask how you actually make change. There was, I think, a very well-known economist and philosopher who said that we know what we might want to change, but the question is how do you actually make change happen.
One of the ways forward, which I think is something that does need to happen—it had been on the agenda, it's been discussed, it's been around—is that there does need to be a UK-wide debate, a UK-wide convention. Some time back, when I was on the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, we pushed very hard and went back with evidence—through the Llywydd's Committee, and through the inter-parliamentary forum that existed—that there needs to be a UK convention. And I say that because, for example, when the 2014 Scottish independence referendum took place, one of the great difficulties was the question of what is the purpose of the UK.
It has come together historically through a whole series of reasons and historic events, but, as we are now, and as we are an entity that is outside of the European Union, the questions are, 'Well what is our purpose? What should be the structure? What should be the principles on which we are based?' And I think that is a very valid discussion that does need to happen, and I think it's a discussion that may well be recognised across political parties. When that 2014 independence referendum took place, I think there was a genuine struggle to actually say, 'Well, what is the purpose? What should the relationships be? What is it that people are going to buy into? What are the principles of equality?' We know there clearly many of them. One of them is—. The Barnett formula, for all its faults, is a redistributive mechanism. It is about redistribution of wealth and, to a certain degree, equality around the UK, the welfare state and aspects of that and tax raising, to that extent, are as well. So, those are matters that we get raised with the Interministerial Standing Committee through the inter-governmental forums that exist.
At the moment, we are in an environment where there is very little reluctance for there to be any movement, but I'm convinced that if there is a change of government in the near future, on the basis of Gordon Brown's report, that debate will increase. On the issue of England, because we talk about Wales and Scotland, and, of course, important events taking place in Northern Ireland now—very important events—it is equally important that the country that consists of 85 per cent of the population of the UK has largely been slightly extraneous from that debate. But, of course, you've seen it growing in places like Manchester, Liverpool, in terms of London, and it is very valid—how is power best exercised, how can it bring us as close as possible to people, what should be the governmental structures and inter-governmental structures, and, perhaps, coming to the very first point I made, how can we develop, actually, a common language that is not pejorative, that doesn't make all sorts of presumptions, but is based on things that we probably all agree on, and that is how we make our democracy work better and how we bring decision making closer to people.
Diolch i chi. Rwy'n credu eich bod yn codi materion pwysig iawn, ac rwy'n credu eich bod yn eu codi mewn ffordd adeiladol iawn. Rhan bwysig o drafodaeth fel hon yw gofyn sut rydych chi'n gwneud newid mewn gwirionedd. Roedd yna economegydd ac athronydd adnabyddus iawn a ddywedodd ein bod yn gwybod beth y gallem fod eisiau ei newid, ond y cwestiwn yw sut rydych chi'n gwneud i newid ddigwydd mewn gwirionedd.
Un o'r ffyrdd ymlaen, sydd, yn fy marn i, yn rhywbeth y mae angen iddo ddigwydd—roedd wedi bod ar yr agenda, mae wedi cael ei drafod, mae wedi ei wyntyllu—yw bod angen trafodaeth ar draws y DU, confensiwn ledled y DU. Beth amser yn ôl, pan oeddwn ar y Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth, Cyfiawnder a'r Cyfansoddiad, fe wnaethom wthio'n galed iawn ac fe wnaethom gasglu tystiolaeth—trwy Bwyllgor y Llywydd, a thrwy'r fforwm rhyngseneddol a oedd yn bodoli—fod angen confensiwn y DU. Ac rwy'n dweud hynny, oherwydd, er enghraifft, pan gynhaliwyd refferendwm annibyniaeth yr Alban yn 2014, un o'r anawsterau mawr oedd y cwestiwn ynglŷn â beth yw pwrpas y DU.
Daeth at ei gilydd yn hanesyddol drwy gyfres fawr o resymau a digwyddiadau hanesyddol, ond fel yr ydym nawr, a chan ein bod yn endid sydd y tu allan i'r Undeb Ewropeaidd, y cwestiynau yw, 'Wel, beth yw ein pwrpas? Beth y dylai'r strwythur fod? Beth y dylai'r egwyddorion yr ydym yn seiliedig arnynt fod?' Ac rwy'n credu bod honno'n drafodaeth ddilys iawn y mae angen iddi ddigwydd, ac rwy'n credu ei bod yn drafodaeth a allai gael ei chydnabod ar draws y pleidiau gwleidyddol. Pan gynhaliwyd refferendwm annibyniaeth 2014, rwy'n credu ei bod hi'n anodd iawn dweud mewn gwirionedd, 'Wel, beth yw'r pwrpas? Beth y dylai'r berthynas fod? Beth mae pobl yn mynd i'w gefnogi? Beth yw'r egwyddorion cydraddoldeb?' Yn amlwg, fe wyddom fod llawer ohonynt. Un ohonynt yw—. Mae fformiwla Barnett, er ei holl ddiffygion, yn fecanwaith ailddosbarthu. Mae'n ymwneud ag ailddosbarthu cyfoeth, ac i ryw raddau mae cydraddoldeb ledled y DU, y wladwriaeth les ac agweddau ar hynny a chodi trethi, i'r graddau hynny, yn ymwneud â hynny yn ogystal. Felly, mae'r rhain yn faterion a welwn yn cael eu codi gyda'r Pwyllgor Sefydlog Rhyngweinidogol drwy'r fforymau rhynglywodraethol sy'n bodoli.
Ar hyn o bryd, rydym mewn amgylchedd lle nad oes fawr o amharodrwydd i unrhyw symud ddigwydd, ond rwy'n argyhoeddedig y bydd y ddadl honno'n cynyddu os bydd newid llywodraeth yn y dyfodol agos, ar sail adroddiad Gordon Brown. Ar fater Lloegr, oherwydd rydym yn sôn am Gymru a'r Alban, a digwyddiadau pwysig sy'n digwydd yng Ngogledd Iwerddon nawr—digwyddiadau pwysig iawn—mae'r un mor bwysig fod y wlad sy'n cynnwys 85 y cant o boblogaeth y DU wedi bod ar y tu allan i'r ddadl honno i raddau helaeth. Ond wrth gwrs, rydych chi wedi'i weld yn tyfu mewn llefydd fel Manceinion, Lerpwl, o ran Llundain, ac mae'n ddilys iawn—beth yw'r ffordd orau o arfer pŵer, sut y gall ddod â ni mor agos â phosibl at bobl, beth ddylai fod yn strwythurau llywodraethol a strwythurau rhynglywodraethol, ac efallai, gan ddod at y pwynt cyntaf un a wneuthum, sut y gallwn ddatblygu iaith gyffredin nad yw'n ddifrïol, nad yw'n gwneud pob math o ragdybiaethau, ond sy'n seiliedig ar bethau yr ydym i gyd yn cytuno arnynt mae'n debyg, sef sut mae gwneud i'n democratiaeth weithio'n well a sut y down â'r broses o wneud penderfyniadau'n agosach at bobl.
Well, clearly, there are discussions that need to take place as soon as possible, particularly in relation to some of the immediate recommendations in the report, especially, for example, on issues of financial flexibility for the Welsh Government, which is something that we have expressed our support for on all sides of this Chamber in the past.
Can I just turn to the constitutional commission's budget? So, obviously, undertaking this exercise has cost the taxpayer about £1.5 million to the time of the report being published. That's not an insignificant sum when you consider the opportunity cost of investing that money, perhaps, in our public services at this particular time, given the struggles that many of them are facing. But I noticed, in the budget for the forthcoming financial year, there's another £1 million that has been allocated to the constitutional commission even though it's finished its work. I just wonder why the Welsh Government is allocating a further £1 million to the commission, given that its work has finished and given that that will be from April next year to April 2025. Why is that sum in your budget?
Wel, yn amlwg, mae yna drafodaethau y mae angen eu cynnal cyn gynted â phosibl, yn enwedig mewn perthynas â rhai o'r argymhellion uniongyrchol yn yr adroddiad, yn enwedig, er enghraifft, ar faterion hyblygrwydd ariannol i Lywodraeth Cymru, sy'n rhywbeth yr ydym wedi mynegi ein cefnogaeth iddo ar bob ochr i'r Siambr hon yn y gorffennol.
A gaf i droi at gyllideb y comisiwn cyfansoddiadol? Yn amlwg, mae cynnal yr ymarfer wedi costio tua £1.5 miliwn i'r trethdalwr hyd at adeg cyhoeddi'r adroddiad. Nid yw hwnnw'n swm dibwys pan ystyriwch gost cyfle buddsoddi'r arian hwnnw, efallai, yn ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus ar yr adeg benodol hon, o ystyried y trafferthion y mae llawer ohonynt yn eu hwynebu. Ond yn y gyllideb ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol sydd i ddod, nodais fod £1 filiwn arall wedi'i ddyrannu i'r comisiwn cyfansoddiadol er ei fod wedi gorffen ei waith. Tybed pam mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn dyrannu £1 filiwn arall i'r comisiwn, o gofio bod ei gwaith wedi dod i ben ac o gofio y bydd hynny o fis Ebrill y flwyddyn nesaf hyd fis Ebrill 2025. Pam mae'r swm hwnnw yn eich cyllideb?
Well, can I say that the budget for the commission, having given the commission independence and a fairly broad remit in terms of how it was to go about its work and engagement, had to be one that had provision to enable that to actually happen? Now we actually have the report, and we have the end scale of that particular budget, I think there is a very valid debate now in terms of—. What is really important in this debate is that the work that has taken place is not something that comes to an end, 'Here's the report', and so on; it is actually a living document that works in terms of a debate, and, of course, an important part of it—. One of the things that Gordon Brown's report said was that he was effectively deferring to the fact that we had this commission, but, then, when it had made its recommendation, there was an important and very constructive dialogue.
So, there may well be, and I would hope there is, certainly, in my view, a continuing engagement with elements of the commission, not in terms of the scale at which it is, but in terms of what the role will be in the development of that debate, how that debate might develop with the post-general-election government and so on. Whether all that £1 million is needed or not would be a matter first to consider as to what we think might be the way of carrying forward those recommendations and some of that work and that ongoing engagement. And I think this is really the start of a process. It provides a basis for that engagement and that particular debate. But it is past that particular milestone, so there will need to be a review in terms of what the remainder of that budget is, what of it is needed and what the precise terms and functions might be of how that is carried forward. I'm not in a position to say now, but I think that is some very important consideration that will need to take place, and I think the question you raised is a very valid one. It'll be very valid when, I think, within the weeks ahead, we have the full debate in this Chamber on that.
Wel, a gaf i ddweud bod yn rhaid i'r gyllideb ar gyfer y comisiwn, ar ôl rhoi annibyniaeth i'r comisiwn a chylch gwaith eithaf eang o ran sut yr oedd i fynd ati i gyflawni ei waith a'i ymgysylltiad, fod yn un a oedd â darpariaeth i alluogi hynny i ddigwydd mewn gwirionedd? Gan fod yr adroddiad gyda ni nawr, a bod gennym faint terfynol y gyllideb benodol honno, rwy'n credu bod dadl ddilys iawn nawr o ran—. Yr hyn sy'n bwysig iawn yn y ddadl hon yw nad yw'r gwaith sydd wedi digwydd yn rhywbeth sy'n dod i ben, 'Dyma'r adroddiad', ac yn y blaen; mae'n ddogfen fyw sy'n gweithio ar gyfer dadl, ac wrth gwrs, rhan bwysig ohoni—. Un o'r pethau a ddywedodd adroddiad Gordon Brown oedd ei fod i bob pwrpas yn ildio i'r ffaith bod gennym y comisiwn hwn, ond wedyn, pan oedd wedi gwneud ei argymhelliad, fod yna ddeialog bwysig ac adeiladol iawn.
Felly, mae'n ddigon posibl y bydd yna ymgysylltiad parhaus gydag elfennau o'r comisiwn, ac rwy'n gobeithio hynny, yn sicr, nid o ran ei faint, ond o ran beth fydd y rôl wrth ddatblygu'r ddadl honno, sut y gallai'r ddadl honno ddatblygu gyda'r llywodraeth a ddaw ar ôl etholiad cyffredinol ac yn y blaen. Byddai pa un a oes angen yr £1 filiwn i gyd ai peidio yn fater i'w ystyried yn gyntaf o ran yr hyn y credwn y gallai fod yn ffordd o gyflawni'r argymhellion hynny a rhywfaint o'r gwaith hwnnw a'r ymgysylltiad parhaus. Ac rwy'n credu mai dechrau proses yw hyn mewn gwirionedd. Mae'n darparu sail ar gyfer yr ymgysylltiad hwnnw a'r ddadl honno. Ond mae wedi mynd heibio i'r garreg filltir benodol honno, felly bydd angen adolygu beth yw gweddill y gyllideb honno, beth sydd ei angen a beth y gallai'r union delerau a swyddogaethau fod o ran sut y bwrir ymlaen â hynny. Nid wyf mewn sefyllfa i ddweud nawr, ond credaf fod honno'n ystyriaeth bwysig iawn, ac rwy'n credu bod y cwestiwn a godwyd gennych yn un dilys iawn. Bydd yn ddilys iawn o fewn yr wythnosau sydd i ddod pan gawn y ddadl lawn ar hynny yn y Siambr hon.
Llefarydd Plaid Cymru, Adam Price.
The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.
Thank you, Llywydd. Has the Counsel General seen the results of the survey of MSs and MPs by ITV Wales, which shows that, amongst those who responded, 76 per cent said they had felt unsafe as a result of the abuse that they have received, and 31 per cent have considered leaving public life altogether as a result. I was, this morning, at an event on abuse in politics, hosted by the Minister for Finance and Local Government, and what was clear, based on the discussion there, was that that picture is also reflected within local government in Wales. Two of the ideas that were proposed in order to respond to this terrible situation were that we gave someone the job centrally of monitoring the level of abuse that is being experienced across Wales, so we can benchmark it on an annual basis, and that we also have a central point of advice and support for elected representatives at all levels, in terms of how they can respond to abuse, given the current legal framework.
Diolch, Lywydd. A yw'r Cwnsler Cyffredinol wedi gweld canlyniadau'r arolwg o Aelodau o'r Senedd ac Aelodau Seneddol gan ITV Wales, sy'n dangos, ymhlith y rhai a ymatebodd, fod 76 y cant wedi dweud eu bod wedi teimlo'n anniogel o ganlyniad i gamdriniaeth y maent wedi'i dioddef, a bod 31 y cant wedi ystyried gadael bywyd cyhoeddus yn gyfan gwbl o ganlyniad i hynny. Y bore yma, roeddwn mewn digwyddiad ar gamdriniaeth yn y byd gwleidyddol a gynhaliwyd gan y Gweinidog Cyllid a Llywodraeth Leol, ac roedd hi'n glir, yn seiliedig ar y drafodaeth yno, fod y darlun hwnnw hefyd yn cael ei adlewyrchu mewn llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru. Dau o'r syniadau a gynigiwyd er mwyn ymateb i'r sefyllfa ofnadwy hon oedd ein bod yn rhoi swydd i rywun yn ganolog i fonitro lefel y gamdriniaeth a brofir ledled Cymru, fel y gallwn ei meincnodi'n flynyddol, a bod gennym hefyd bwynt canolog i roi cyngor a chefnogaeth i gynrychiolwyr etholedig ar bob lefel, er mwyn iddynt allu ymateb i gamdriniaeth, o ystyried y fframwaith cyfreithiol presennol.
I haven't seen the survey, but it's not something, in your talking about it, that causes me any surprise, because I doubt whether there's a single Member in here, and across all parties, who has not experienced severe abuse. I've had quite a bit of it recently—individuals telling me that, on the Senedd reform, I belong in a padded cell. That is probably the milder and more moderate form of some of the abuse that has taken place and the language that is experienced.
There are different aspects to it. The first thing is you're absolutely right—I think there's an awful lot of people who would like to serve in public office, at whatever level, who've chosen not to because they do not want to expose themselves and their families to the sort of abuse that comes particularly through social media. I think social media is a major challenge. Like all things, it has considerable benefits in terms of communication and exchanges of information, but also, certainly—and we've seen this within the political environment internationally as well, not just locally—the potential for threat and intimidation. There are laws, of course, that provide for criminality in certain aspects of that, but I do agree very much with what you say—I think there is a need for considerable thought within our democratic process about how we do, I suppose, maintain certain principles in terms of online abuse. Legislation, of course, has gone through the UK Parliament, but, of course, much of it is subject to how those who own and control the social media networks actually operate. And we know that, even within that, there are clear vested interests, and I put that as diplomatically as I can.
In the elections Bill, which is coming forward in this Senedd, we've strengthened the issue of undue influence, and so on, within that. But I do agree, when we talk about our democratic health in the round, that the issue of people's ability to participate and to protect people, and also to protect the civil rights of people to participate and to speak freely within that, is absolutely vital. I think what you are raising is something I can't give you an answer to, other than I think it is a fundamentally important issue for the future that we have to tackle, we have to address and we have to engage with across all governments.
Nid wyf wedi gweld yr arolwg, ond wrth siarad amdano, nid yw'n rhywbeth sy'n peri unrhyw syndod imi, oherwydd rwy'n amau a oes unrhyw Aelod yma, ac ar draws pob plaid, sydd heb brofi cam-drin difrifol. Cefais gryn dipyn ohono yn ddiweddar—unigolion yn dweud wrthyf, ar fater diwygio'r Senedd, mai cell dan glo yw fy lle. Mae'n debyg mai dyna'r ffurf ysgafnach a mwy cymedrol o beth o'r cam-drin sydd wedi digwydd a'r iaith sy'n cael ei dioddef.
Mae yna wahanol agweddau ar hynny. Y peth cyntaf yw eich bod chi'n hollol iawn—rwy'n credu bod llawer iawn o bobl a hoffai wasanaethu mewn swydd gyhoeddus, ar ba lefel bynnag, sydd wedi dewis peidio am nad ydynt eisiau gwneud eu hunain a'u teuluoedd yn agored i'r math o gamdriniaeth a ddaw yn sgil hynny, yn enwedig drwy'r cyfryngau cymdeithasol. Rwy'n credu bod cyfryngau cymdeithasol yn her fawr. Fel pob peth, mae iddynt fanteision sylweddol ar gyfer cyfathrebu a chyfnewid gwybodaeth, ond hefyd, yn sicr—ac rydym wedi gweld hyn yn yr amgylchedd gwleidyddol yn rhyngwladol hefyd, nid yn lleol yn unig—maent yn cynnig ffordd o fygwth a brawychu. Mae yna gyfreithiau, wrth gwrs, sy'n darparu ar gyfer troseddoli rhai agweddau ar hynny, ond rwy'n cytuno'n fawr â'r hyn a ddywedwch—rwy'n credu bod angen cryn feddwl o fewn ein proses ddemocrataidd, mae'n debyg, ynglŷn â sut y gallwn gynnal egwyddorion penodol mewn perthynas â cham-drin ar-lein. Mae deddfwriaeth wedi mynd drwy Senedd y DU, ond wrth gwrs, mae llawer ohoni'n ddarostyngedig i sut mae'r rhai sy'n berchen ar rwydweithiau cyfryngau cymdeithasol ac yn eu rheoli yn gweithredu mewn gwirionedd. Ac fe wyddom, hyd yn oed o fewn hynny, fod yna fudd clir i rai, ac rwy'n rhoi hynny mor ddiplomyddol ag y gallaf.
Yn y Bil etholiadau, sy'n cael ei gyflwyno yn y Senedd hon, rydym wedi cryfhau mater dylanwad amhriodol, ac yn y blaen, o'i fewn. Ond rwy'n cytuno, pan fyddwn yn siarad am ein hiechyd democrataidd yn gyffredinol, fod gallu pobl i gymryd rhan a diogelu pobl, a diogelu hawliau sifil pobl hefyd i gymryd rhan ac i siarad yn rhydd o fewn hynny, yn gwbl hanfodol. Rwy'n credu bod yr hyn a nodwch yn rhywbeth na allaf roi ateb i chi yn ei gylch, heblaw fy mod yn credu ei fod yn fater sylfaenol bwysig ar gyfer y dyfodol y mae'n rhaid inni roi sylw iddo, mae'n rhaid inni fynd i'r afael ag ef ac mae'n rhaid inni ymdrin ag ef ar draws pob llywodraeth.
Women in politics suffer this abuse disproportionately, and, 12 years ago, Bolivia became the first country in the world to create a specific offence of abuse against women in politics, and that's been copied in four Latin American countries. We couldn't introduce that law because of the reservation around equal opportunities, but we could strengthen general provisions to prevent abuse in politics, which would then benefit women and those other groups—ethnic minorities, LGBTQ+ and others—that suffer this abuse. We could, for example, take the new offence of intimidating elected representatives and apply it not just during election periods but permanently or continuously. We could add to that offence by not making the sanction limited to disqualification from standing in elections, but actually having a criminal sanction involving fines and imprisonment. We could take the long-standing offence of making a false statement about somebody's personal conduct or character, and also extend that beyond election periods and apply it to political conduct—for instance, claiming that somebody voted one way when, actually, they didn't. That's not illegal currently, and that is something that is the source of abuse. Would the Counsel General look at all these ideas, and also look across the world—the Oireachtas in Ireland is about to produce its own report on safe participation in public life—would he look at all of these ideas, give them consideration and report back to the Senedd if he saw merit in implementing any of these ideas here in Wales?
Mae menywod mewn gwleidyddiaeth yn dioddef cam-drin o'r fath i raddau anghymesur, a 12 mlynedd yn ôl, Bolivia oedd y wlad gyntaf yn y byd i greu trosedd benodol o gam-drin menywod mewn gwleidyddiaeth, ac mae hynny wedi'i efelychu mewn pedair o wledydd America Ladin. Ni allem gyflwyno'r gyfraith honno am fod cyfle cyfartal wedi'i gadw'n ôl, ond gallem gryfhau darpariaethau cyffredinol i atal camdriniaeth mewn gwleidyddiaeth, a fyddai wedyn o fudd i fenywod a grwpiau eraill—lleiafrifoedd ethnig, LGBTQ+ ac eraill—sy'n dioddef cam-drin o'r fath. Er enghraifft, gallem gymryd y drosedd newydd o fygwth cynrychiolwyr etholedig a'i chymhwyso nid yn unig yn ystod cyfnodau etholiad ond yn barhaol neu'n barhaus. Gallem ychwanegu at y drosedd honno drwy beidio â chyfyngu'r gosb i anghymhwyso rhag sefyll mewn etholiadau, ond cael cosb droseddol gyda dirwyon a charchariadau. Gallem gymryd y drosedd hirsefydlog o wneud datganiad ffug am ymddygiad neu gymeriad personol rhywun, ac ymestyn hynny hefyd y tu hwnt i gyfnodau etholiad a'i gymhwyso i ymddygiad gwleidyddol—er enghraifft, honni bod rhywun wedi pleidleisio un ffordd pan na wnaethant hynny mewn gwirionedd. Nid yw hynny'n anghyfreithlon ar hyn o bryd, ac mae'n rhywbeth sy'n ffynhonnell camdriniaeth. A wnaiff y Cwnsler Cyffredinol edrych ar yr holl syniadau hyn, ac edrych hefyd ar draws y byd—mae'r Oireachtas yn Iwerddon ar fin cynhyrchu ei adroddiad ei hun ar gyfranogiad diogel mewn bywyd cyhoeddus—a wnaiff edrych ar yr holl syniadau hyn, rhoi ystyriaeth iddynt ac adrodd yn ôl i'r Senedd os yw'n gweld rhinwedd mewn gweithredu unrhyw un o'r syniadau yma yng Nghymru?
Can I say I think the point you raise is fundamentally important? It is certainly something that goes to a trope that I've been continually mentioning, and that is democratic health. I think there is a need for an ongoing debate on our democratic health. Some of that comes with some of the legislation that we are bringing, but I am happy to look at exploring ways in which this can be developed within the Senedd and can be looked at within the Senedd—whether it is the most appropriate at a Senedd level, a Senedd committee, et cetera, that then actually seeks evidence from Ministers but other bodies, et cetera, that explores that. Maybe that would be the way in which we start that process.
I have to say, there are real concerns I have in terms of how we might be able to do things in terms of our competence, and I think our competence restrictions in terms of the online issue and other areas all begin to emerge and make this a very difficult area. Also, this is very much a cross-governmental issue and one of the issues—. Perhaps we can look forward to see how that might be raised. I think it has been raised at some of the inter-governmental meetings in a general way, and I'll happily look to explore that and perhaps come back to you—I'll happily write to you—about where we are on some of those issues, and perhaps explore what might be a way forward in terms of that. One of my portfolio responsibilities, obviously, is the constitution. I think that embraces the issue of democratic health within the confines of our devolved settlement, so I'll happily be prepared to look at that.
A gaf i ddweud bod y pwynt a godwch yn hanfodol bwysig? Mae'n sicr yn rhywbeth sy'n cysylltu â mater y bûm yn sôn amdano'n barhaus, sef iechyd democrataidd. Rwy'n credu bod angen dadl barhaus ar ein hiechyd democrataidd. Daw rhywfaint o hynny gyda pheth o'r ddeddfwriaeth yr ydym yn ei chyflwyno, ond rwy'n hapus i edrych ar ffyrdd y gellir datblygu hyn o fewn y Senedd ac y gellir edrych arnynt o fewn y Senedd—a yw'n fwyaf priodol ar lefel y Senedd, un o bwyllgorau'r Senedd, ac ati, sydd wedyn yn gofyn am dystiolaeth gan Weinidogion a chyrff eraill, ac yn y blaen, sy'n archwilio hynny. Efallai mai dyna'r ffordd y dechreuwn y broses honno.
Rhaid imi ddweud, mae pryderon gwirioneddol gennyf ynglŷn â sut y gallem wneud pethau o ran ein cymhwysedd, ac rwy'n credu bod ein cyfyngiadau cymhwysedd ynghylch materion ar-lein a meysydd eraill i gyd yn dechrau dod i'r amlwg ac yn gwneud hwn yn faes anodd iawn. Hefyd, mae hwn yn fater trawslywodraethol i raddau helaeth iawn ac un o'r materion—. Efallai y gallwn edrych ymlaen at weld sut y gellid codi hynny. Rwy'n credu ei fod wedi cael ei godi yn rhai o'r cyfarfodydd rhynglywodraethol mewn ffordd gyffredinol, ac rwy'n hapus i archwilio hynny ac efallai dod yn ôl atoch—rwy'n hapus i ysgrifennu atoch—ynglŷn â ble rydym arni gyda rhai o'r materion hynny, ac efallai archwilio beth allai fod yn ffordd ymlaen gyda hynny. Un o fy nghyfrifoldebau portffolio, wrth gwrs, yw'r cyfansoddiad. Credaf fod hynny'n cynnwys mater iechyd democrataidd o fewn cyfyngiadau ein setliad datganoledig, felly rwy'n barod i edrych ar hynny.
3. Pa drafodaethau y mae'r Cwnsler Cyffredinol wedi'u cael â Llywodraeth y DU ynglŷn ag ymgyrch Hillsborough Law Now? OQ60615
3. What discussions has the Counsel General had with the UK Government regarding the Hillsborough Law Now campaign? OQ60615
Again, can I thank you for raising this? I have raised the objectives of the Hillsborough Law Now campaign with the UK Government on many occasions, most recently at last week’s Inter-ministerial Group for Justice in the context of the case for a statutory duty of candour.
A gaf i ddiolch i chi unwaith eto am godi hyn? Rwyf wedi codi amcanion ymgyrch Hillsborough Law Now gyda Llywodraeth y DU ar sawl achlysur, yn fwyaf diweddar yn y Grŵp Cyfiawnder Rhyngweinidogol yr wythnos diwethaf yng nghyd-destun yr achos dros ddyletswydd gonestrwydd statudol.
I thank the Counsel General for his answer and also for his long-standing commitment to fighting for justice for ordinary working people, and I again thank him for supporting the premise of a Hillsborough law now and the campaign to achieve that. As you say, Counsel General, a Hillsborough law would place a new legal duty of candour on public authorities and officials to tell the truth and to proactively co-operate with official investigations and inquiries. With that in mind, can I ask the Counsel General what assessment he has made of how a Hillsborough law will not only end the familiar pattern of cover-ups and concealment, but will also save public money in doing so?
Diolch i'r Cwnsler Cyffredinol am ei ateb a hefyd am ei ymrwymiad hirsefydlog i frwydro dros gyfiawnder i bobl gyffredin, a diolch iddo unwaith eto am gefnogi cynsail cyfraith Hillsborough a'r ymgyrch i gyflawni hynny. Fel y dywedwch, Gwnsler Cyffredinol, byddai cyfraith Hillsborough yn gosod dyletswydd gonestrwydd gyfreithiol newydd ar awdurdodau cyhoeddus a swyddogion i ddweud y gwir ac i gydweithredu'n rhagweithiol ag ymchwiliadau ac ymholiadau swyddogol. Gyda hynny mewn golwg, a gaf i ofyn i'r Cwnsler Cyffredinol pa asesiad y mae wedi'i wneud o sut y bydd cyfraith Hillsborough nid yn unig yn dod â'r patrwm cyfarwydd o gelu a chuddio i ben, ond hefyd yn arbed arian cyhoeddus wrth wneud hynny?
Can I just thank you again for keeping this issue on the radar, because it's a very important one? It's an issue that features also in the UK Government's Victims and Prisoners Bill, and, of course, one of the ways that that Bill is seeking to address some of the Hillsborough issues is by the creation of independent advocates. There are issues around that that we have discussed at inter-ministerial level that caused concerns, particularly in terms of the devolution settlement. There are conversations that are ongoing with regard to that Bill and legislative consent. I think even what is contained within that does not actually deal with the Hillsborough law and the issues that are raised there. I think I said when this was raised before that one of the most straightforward ways of actually resolving this is actually by making legal aid available to victims.
Just to say, whilst I’m very pleased to see today the result of the Law Society’s judicial review of the UK Government in respect of legal aid, I’m just going to mention this part of the judgment, because although it relates to the rates of legal aid and the impact that has, this, I think, is pretty fundamental in terms of what is happening with our justice system, which is creaking and is basically beginning to crack and come into disrepute:
'The court observed that it had been presented with an "impressive, compelling body of evidence" which showed "the system is slowly coming apart at the seams". "Unless there are significant injections of funding in the relatively near future, any prediction along the lines that the system will arrive in due course at the point of collapse is not overly pessimistic." '
That is a pretty damning statement coming from a senior court. They went on to say that 1,400 duty solicitors have left since 2017, and
'We’re already seeing that there simply aren’t enough solicitors to represent suspects in police stations'..."The imbalance between the defence and the prosecution will continue to grow and public trust in the criminal justice system will continue to fail." '
That relates back to the earlier question of Horizon, but it also equally relates to the Hillsborough issue and the issue that I’ve raised a number of times, and that is about access to justice.
A gaf i ddiolch i chi eto am gadw'r mater hwn ar y radar, oherwydd mae'n un pwysig iawn? Mae'n fater sy'n ymddangos hefyd ym Mil Dioddefwyr a Charcharorion Llywodraeth y DU, ac wrth gwrs, un o'r ffyrdd y mae'r Bil hwnnw'n ceisio mynd i'r afael â rhai o faterion Hillsborough yw drwy greu eiriolwyr annibynnol. Mae materion yn codi mewn perthynas â hynny sy'n achosi pryder, ac rydym wedi eu trafod ar lefel ryngweinidogol, yn enwedig mewn perthynas â'r setliad datganoli. Mae sgyrsiau ar y gweill ynghylch y Bil hwnnw a chydsyniad deddfwriaethol. Rwy'n credu nad yw'r hyn sydd wedi'i gynnwys o fewn y Bil hwnnw hyd yn oed yn ymdrin â chyfraith Hillsborough mewn gwirionedd a'r materion sy'n cael eu codi yno. Rwy'n credu fy mod wedi dweud pan godwyd hyn yn flaenorol mai un o'r ffyrdd mwyaf syml o ddatrys hyn yw trwy sicrhau bod cymorth cyfreithiol ar gael i ddioddefwyr.
Hoffwn ddweud yn ogystal, er fy mod yn falch iawn o weld canlyniad adolygiad barnwrol Cymdeithas y Gyfraith heddiw o Lywodraeth y DU mewn perthynas â chymorth cyfreithiol, rwyf ond yn mynd i sôn am y rhan hon o'r dyfarniad, oherwydd er ei fod yn ymwneud â chyfraddau cymorth cyfreithiol a'r effaith y mae hynny'n ei chael, rwy'n credu bod hyn yn eithaf sylfaenol o ran yr hyn sy'n digwydd gyda'n system gyfiawnder, sy'n gwegian ac yn y bôn yn dechrau cracio ac yn dod yn destun anfri:
'Nododd y llys fod "corff o dystiolaeth drawiadol a chymhellol" wedi dod i law a oedd yn dangos "fod y system yn dechrau datgymalu'n araf bach". "Oni bai bod chwistrelliadau sylweddol o gyllid yn y dyfodol cymharol agos, nid yw unrhyw ddarogan y bydd y system yn cyrraedd pwynt lle bydd yn chwalu maes o law yn rhy besimistaidd."'
Mae hwnnw'n ddatganiad eithaf damniol gan uwch lys. Fe aethant ymlaen i ddweud bod 1,400 o gyfreithwyr ar ddyletswydd wedi gadael ers 2017, ac
'Rydym eisoes yn gweld nad oes digon o gyfreithwyr i gynrychioli pobl dan amheuaeth mewn gorsafoedd heddlu'..."Bydd yr anghydbwysedd rhwng yr amddiffyniad a'r erlyniad yn parhau i dyfu a bydd ymddiriedaeth y cyhoedd yn y system cyfiawnder troseddol yn parhau i wanhau."'
Mae hynny'n ymwneud â chwestiwn cynharach ynglŷn â Horizon, ond mae hefyd yn ymwneud i'r un graddau â mater Hillsborough a'r mater a godwyd gennyf sawl gwaith ynglŷn â mynediad at gyfiawnder.
Dwi wedi cytuno i gwestiynau 4, 5 a 6 gael eu grwpio. I ofyn cwestiwn 4, felly, John Griffiths.
I have agreed that questions 4, 5 and 6 should be grouped. To ask question 4, therefore, John Griffiths.
4. Beth yw safbwynt Llywodraeth Cymru ar hyn o bryd ar ddatganoli plismona i Gymru? OQ60614
4. What is the Welsh Government’s current position on the devolution of policing to Wales? OQ60614
5. Pa gyngor cyfreithiol y mae'r Cwnsler Cyffredinol wedi'i roi i Lywodraeth Cymru ar ddatganoli plismona a chyfiawnder? OQ60593
5. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government on the devolution of policing and justice? OQ60593
6. Pa gamau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu cymryd i sicrhau datganoli cyfiawnder a phlismona? OQ60588
6. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to ensure the devolution of justice and policing? OQ60588
Thank you for the question. As the Llywydd has outlined, questions 4, 5 and 6 are being grouped.
The Welsh Government’s position is clear. We continue to support the devolution of policing and justice to Wales, as supported recently by the constitutional commission. We will shortly be publishing our 'Delivering Justice for Wales' progress report with further details.
Diolch am y cwestiwn. Fel y mae'r Llywydd wedi amlinellu, mae cwestiynau 4, 5 a 6 yn cael eu grwpio.
Mae safbwynt Llywodraeth Cymru yn glir. Rydym yn parhau i gefnogi datganoli plismona a chyfiawnder i Gymru, fel y mae'r comisiwn cyfansoddiadol wedi'i gefnogi yn ddiweddar. Byddwn yn cyhoeddi ein hadroddiad cynnydd ar 'Sicrhau Cyfiawnder i Gymru' cyn bo hir gyda rhagor o fanylion.
Daeth Paul Davies i’r Gadair.
Paul Davies took the Chair.
Counsel General, we do not have a criminal justice system fit for purpose in England and Wales, and I think the case is very well made for devolution, and I know that you would agree with that. At the moment, people are unnecessarily criminalised. We have overcrowded prisons where rehabilitation is not possible to the extent that it should take place. This then leads to more reoffending than would otherwise happen. We know lots of people there have mental health issues, alcohol and drug addiction, poor literacy and numeracy skills and generally low skills. It’s regressive and it’s counter-productive, and we badly need a more enlightened approach along the lines of social justice and improving quality of life for our communities that Welsh Government is committed to.
The Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales has made the appropriate recommendation, so I just wonder what you could tell us in terms of your assessment of the preparedness in Wales for that devolution, and what are the most immediate next steps that need to take place?
Gwnsler Cyffredinol, nid oes gennym system cyfiawnder troseddol sy'n addas i'r diben yng Nghymru a Lloegr, ac rwy'n credu bod yr achos wedi'i wneud yn dda iawn dros ddatganoli, a gwn y byddech yn cytuno â hynny. Ar hyn o bryd, mae pobl yn cael eu troseddoli'n ddiangen. Mae gennym garchardai gorlawn lle nad yw'n bosibl adsefydlu i'r graddau y dylai hynny ddigwydd. Mae hyn wedyn yn arwain at fwy o aildroseddu nag a fyddai'n digwydd fel arall. Gwyddom fod gan lawer o bobl broblemau iechyd meddwl, dibyniaeth ar alcohol a chyffuriau, sgiliau llythrennedd a rhifedd gwael a lefel wael o sgiliau yn gyffredinol. Mae'n anflaengar ac mae'n wrthgynhyrchiol, ac mae gwir angen dull mwy goleuedig arnom o weithredu cyfiawnder cymdeithasol a gwella ansawdd bywyd i'n cymunedau fel y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi ymrwymo iddo.
Mae'r Comisiwn Annibynnol ar Ddyfodol Cyfansoddiadol Cymru wedi gwneud yr argymhelliad priodol, felly beth y gallwch ei ddweud wrthym yw eich asesiad o'r parodrwydd yng Nghymru ar gyfer datganoli o'r fath, a beth yw'r camau nesaf mwyaf uniongyrchol sydd angen eu cymryd?
I think one of the difficulties there has been when we talk about the devolution of policing is that we've got to understand the interrelationship between policing, how policing has changed over the years, its interaction with youth offending, with social communities, with socioeconomic issues, and so on. That development has actually been really, really important, and to devolve youth justice and to devolve probation also leads you to say there is an illogic in not then also devolving policing. Policing is devolved, of course, in Northern Ireland, as it is in Scotland. There are devolutions of policing in Manchester and again in London. So, I've never understood why it is that the logic of all the devolved functions we have aren't in keeping, or considered to be in keeping with the devolution of policing.
We, of course, do have in Wales four police and crime commissioners. They are a reserved matter. But when the four elected police and crime commissioners all come together and say that policing needs to be devolved, and recognise the importance of the interrelations and work that is going on with devolved functions, I think it's important that people sit up and listen to that very carefully, if you really want to see policing and the justice work more consistently and more effectively.
Can I just say that the step we have taken forward on this—? I was in Scotland for three days looking at the tribunal system, but also at the youth justice system, and there are some very interesting developments there, which I'll perhaps talk about on another occasion. But the relationship there with policing, and the understanding of how policing works, has led us, really, to the joint statement the Minister for Social Justice referred to a while back. That is in respect of the research that's being carried out, which we have commissioned with the retired Chief Constable Carl Foulkes, who's leading a review of policing, the opportunities from the devolution of policing, the practicalities of it. Because I think the onus is on us now to actually make the very, very clear case by showing, 'This is what would be different, this is what would be better.' Of course, there are inter-governmental issues across the UK in terms of specialist aspects of policing—none of those should change—but I think there is a very, very strong case there. We are working to actually present that, and there will be further debate on this when the conclusions of the research work that's being carried out are available and we can debate them in the Senedd.
Rwy'n credu mai un o'r anawsterau wrth siarad am ddatganoli plismona yw bod yn rhaid inni ddeall y gydberthynas rhwng plismona, sut mae plismona wedi newid dros y blynyddoedd, y ffordd y mae'n rhyngweithio â throseddu ieuenctid, â chymunedau cymdeithasol, â materion economaidd-gymdeithasol, ac yn y blaen. Mae'r datblygiad hwnnw wedi bod yn wirioneddol bwysig, ac mae datganoli cyfiawnder ieuenctid a datganoli prawf hefyd yn eich arwain i ddweud bod peidio â datganoli plismona hefyd yn afresymegol. Mae plismona wedi'i ddatganoli yng Ngogledd Iwerddon, fel y mae yn yr Alban wrth gwrs. Mae yna ddatganoli plismona ym Manceinion ac eto yn Llundain. Felly, nid wyf erioed wedi deall y rhesymeg pam mae'r holl swyddogaethau datganoledig sydd gennym yn anghydnaws, neu'n cael eu hystyried yn anghydnaws â datganoli plismona.
Mae gennym bedwar comisiynydd heddlu a throseddu yng Nghymru wrth gwrs. Maent yn fater a gadwyd yn ôl. Ond pan fydd y pedwar comisiynydd heddlu a throseddu etholedig yn dod at ei gilydd ac yn dweud bod angen datganoli plismona, ac yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd y gydberthynas a'r gwaith sy'n digwydd gyda swyddogaethau datganoledig, rwy'n credu ei bod yn bwysig fod pobl yn gwrando ar hynny'n ofalus iawn, os ydych chi o ddifrif eisiau gweld plismona a'r gwaith cyfiawnder yn gweithio'n fwy cyson ac yn fwy effeithiol.
A gaf i ddweud mai'r cam a gymerwyd gennym ar hyn—? Roeddwn yn yr Alban am dridiau yn edrych ar y system tribiwnlysoedd, ond hefyd ar y system cyfiawnder ieuenctid, ac mae datblygiadau diddorol iawn yno, y byddaf yn siarad amdanynt ar achlysur arall o bosibl. Ond mae'r berthynas yno â phlismona, a dealltwriaeth o sut mae plismona'n gweithio, wedi ein harwain at y datganiad ar y cyd y cyfeiriodd y Gweinidog Cyfiawnder Cymdeithasol ato ychydig yn ôl. Mae'n ymwneud â'r ymchwil sy'n cael ei wneud, ymchwil a gomisiynwyd gennym gyda'r cyn Brif Gwnstabl Carl Foulkes, sy'n arwain adolygiad o blismona, y cyfleoedd o ddatganoli plismona, ymarferoldeb hynny. Oherwydd rwy'n credu mai ein cyfrifoldeb ni yn awr yw gwneud yr achos yn glir iawn drwy ddangos, 'Dyma beth fyddai'n wahanol, dyma beth fyddai'n well.' Wrth gwrs, mae yna faterion rhynglywodraethol yn codi ar draws y DU mewn perthynas ag agweddau arbenigol ar blismona—ni ddylai unrhyw un o'r rheini newid—ond rwy'n credu bod achos cryf iawn yno. Rydym yn gweithio i gyflwyno'r achos hwnnw, a bydd trafodaeth bellach ar hyn pan fydd casgliadau'r gwaith ymchwil sy'n cael ei wneud ar gael a gallwn eu trafod yn y Senedd.
John Griffiths explained eloquently why we need to see the devolution of justice and policing just now. Ten days ago, on 21 January, the Counsel General posted a message on X saying:
'Those opposed to the devolution of justice have still not put forward any evidence based argument claiming merely "isnʼt it great, aren't we wonderful, the world thinks we are fantastic!» Delusional!'
End quote. And I agree completely with the Counsel General in his remarks. The next day, the most senior Labour MP in Wales, Jo Stevens, went on the BBC and said that an incoming Labour Government will not be looking at devolution of policing and justice. So, does the Counsel General believe that Keir Starmer's Labour Party is deluded?
Esboniodd John Griffiths yn huawdl pam mae angen inni weld datganoli cyfiawnder a phlismona nawr. Ddeng niwrnod yn ôl, ar 21 Ionawr, postiodd y Cwnsler Cyffredinol neges ar X yn dweud:
'Nid yw'r rhai sy'n gwrthwynebu datganoli cyfiawnder wedi cyflwyno unrhyw ddadl sy'n seiliedig ar dystiolaeth, gan honni'n unig "onid yw'n wych, onid ydym ni'n fendigedig, mae'r byd yn meddwl ein bod yn ardderchog!" Maent yn twyllo'u hunain!'
Diwedd y dyfyniad. Ac rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr â'r Cwnsler Cyffredinol yn ei sylwadau. Y diwrnod wedyn, aeth yr AS Llafur uchaf ei statws yng Nghymru, Jo Stevens, ar y BBC a dywedodd na fydd Llywodraeth Lafur newydd yn edrych ar ddatganoli plismona a chyfiawnder. Felly, a yw'r Cwnsler Cyffredinol yn credu bod plaid Lafur Keir Starmer yn twyllo'i hun?
Well, can I say, firstly, that the social media clip you refer to was very much in response to a clip that came from the Rt Hon Robert Buckland, former Lord Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Justice? The reason I did that was because the tone of what was being said was, 'Look at our justice system. We are so respected throughout the world. We are almost the cornerstone of justice et cetera. Who would really want to undermine that and then to devolve justice, because everything is as it is?' And my immediate response to that is, 'No, it isn't.' Our justice system is becoming a laughing stock around the world. Our legal aid system is far worse than in many other countries of the world. We are exposed to an onslaught of miscarriages of justice: senior individual cases, to the issues that we've discussed, with warrants of execution, to the issues we've had with the Horizon scandal, which goes on and on. We have a justice system with backlogs, and the legal aid system means that the majority of the population never have access to the justice system. We now have a Government that is passing unlawful legislation and that is talking about legislating to break international conventions. So, that's what I thought was actually delusional. Anyone who still believes that old mantra we had 20, 30 years ago of the mother of parliaments and the justice system we've given to the world—we have parts of the world that have now more effective justice systems than we have.
Can I say, in terms of policing—? Well, look, the first thing is that the Gordon Brown report was very clear that the starting point in terms of change was youth justice and probation. The issue of policing is one that we will continue to explore. We will continue to put evidence together. We will continue to engage for changes that I believe are inevitable. These are not things that will happen overnight, but I'm convinced that we will get there and that we will actually achieve the devolution of those areas—not because it's a battleground between whether Westminster controls it or whether we do, it's because it's better for the people of Wales. It's better for our communities, it's a better way. If I thought it would actually not work and it would be worse, then I'd say, 'No, leave it alone.' But I don't believe that, and the more I get involved in the youth justice system and in the justice aspects and in sentencing and so on, the more I actually realise that, the way that these are all integrated, it makes no sense, when you have so many devolved functions that really make up a big chunk of the justice system, to keep them separate.
Wel, a gaf i ddweud yn gyntaf fod y clip cyfryngau cymdeithasol y cyfeiriwch ato yn ymateb i glip a ddaeth gan y Gwir Anrhydeddus Robert Buckland, cyn Arglwydd Ganghellor a'r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Gyfiawnder? Y rheswm pam y gwneuthum hynny oedd oherwydd mai cywair yr hyn a oedd yn cael ei ddweud oedd, 'Edrychwch ar ein system gyfiawnder. Rydym yn cael ein parchu cymaint ledled y byd. Rydym bron yn gonglfaen i gyfiawnder ac ati. Pwy fyddai eisiau tanseilio hynny o ddifrif a datganoli cyfiawnder, gyda phopeth fel y mae?' A fy ymateb uniongyrchol i hynny yw, 'Na, nid yw hynny'n wir.' Mae ein system gyfiawnder yn destun gwawd ledled y byd bellach. Mae ein system cymorth cyfreithiol yn llawer gwaeth na mewn llawer o wledydd eraill yn y byd. Rydym yn agored i gamweinyddu cyfiawnder eang: llu o achosion unigol, gyda'r materion yr ydym wedi'u trafod, a gwarantau i weithredu, a'r materion a gawsom gyda sgandal Horizon, sy'n mynd ymlaen ac ymlaen. Mae gennym system gyfiawnder gydag ôl-groniadau, ac mae'r system cymorth cyfreithiol yn golygu nad yw'r mwyafrif o'r boblogaeth byth yn cael mynediad at y system gyfiawnder. Mae gennym Lywodraeth nawr sy'n pasio deddfwriaeth anghyfreithlon sy'n siarad am ddeddfu i dorri confensiynau rhyngwladol. Felly, dyna pam y credwn eu bod yn twyllo'u hunain. Mae unrhyw un sy'n dal i gredu'r hen fantra a oedd gennym 20, 30 mlynedd yn ôl am fam y seneddau a'r system gyfiawnder a roesom i'r byd—mae gennym rannau o'r byd sydd bellach yn meddu ar systemau cyfiawnder mwy effeithiol na'r hyn sydd gennym ni.
A gaf i ddweud, ar blismona—? Wel, edrychwch, y peth cyntaf yw bod adroddiad Gordon Brown yn glir iawn mai'r man cychwyn ar gyfer newid oedd cyfiawnder ieuenctid a phrawf. Mae mater plismona yn un y byddwn yn parhau i edrych arno. Byddwn yn parhau i roi tystiolaeth at ei gilydd. Byddwn yn parhau i ymgysylltu ar gyfer newidiadau y credaf eu bod yn anochel. Nid yw'r rhain yn bethau a fydd yn digwydd dros nos, ond rwy'n argyhoeddedig y byddwn yn cyrraedd yno ac y byddwn yn gweld y meysydd hynny'n cael eu datganoli—nid oherwydd ei bod yn frwydr rhwng pa un a yw San Steffan yn ei reoli neu a ydym ni'n ei reoli, ond oherwydd ei fod yn well i bobl Cymru. Mae'n well i'n cymunedau, mae'n ffordd well. Pe bawn i'n meddwl na fyddai'n gweithio ac y byddai'n waeth, buaswn yn dweud, 'Na, gadewch lonydd iddo.' Ond nid wyf yn credu hynny, a po fwyaf y byddaf yn ymwneud â'r system cyfiawnder ieuenctid a'r agweddau cyfiawnder a dedfrydu ac yn y blaen, y mwyaf y sylweddolaf, wrth ystyried y ffordd y mae'r rhain i gyd wedi'u hintegreiddio, a phan fo gennych gymaint o swyddogaethau datganoledig sy'n creu rhan fawr o'r system gyfiawnder, nad yw eu cadw ar wahân yn gwneud synnwyr.
Dwi'n cytuno gyda phopeth rŷch chi wedi dweud. A hefyd, dŷn ni'n anomaly yn y byd, onid ydyn ni, achos ni, siŵr o fod, yw'r unig wlad, dwi'n meddwl, sydd â deddfwrfa ein hunain, sy'n creu deddfwriaeth, ond sydd heb system o weinyddu ei chyfiawnder ei hunan a'i deddfwriaeth ei hunan. Dŷn ni wedi cael cymaint o adroddiadau nawr sydd wedi awgrymu y dylid datganoli cyfiawnder a phlismona. Pa drafodaethau brys ydych chi naill ai wedi eu cynnal gyda Llywodraeth San Steffan neu sydd yn eich dyddiadur ers cyhoeddi adroddiad y Comisiwn Annibynnol ar Ddyfodol Cyfansoddiadol Cymru, a phryd dŷch chi'n meddwl y bydd hi'n rhesymol i ddisgwyl i Gymru gael y pwerau hanfodol hyn?
Ac yn olaf, ydych chi'n cytuno gyda fi nad mater ar gyfer anoracs cyfansoddiadol ydy sôn am ddatganoli system cyfiawnder a gweinyddu cyfiawnder? Byddai'r pwerau hynny yn gallu gwella safonau bywyd cymaint o bobl a sicrhau mwy o degwch yn ein gwlad.
I agree with everything you've said. And, indeed, we are an anomaly in the world because we are, surely, the only nation that has our own legislature, that makes legislation, but doesn't have a system to administer its own justice system and its own legislation. We've had so many reports now that have suggested that policing should be devolved along with justice. What urgent discussions have you either had with the Westminster Government or are in your diary since the publication of the report of the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, and when do you think it would be reasonable to expect Wales to get these crucial powers?
And finally, do you agree with me that this isn't just an issue for constitutional anoraks when we talk about the devolution of justice and the administration of justice? Those powers could improve the life standards of so many people and ensure greater fairness in our nation.
Thank you for your question. Of course, I understand that when you head towards a general election, when you start looking at the major issues, you want to identify what are the most immediately important issues that are there. And, of course, there are priority, broad umbrella issues and so on. I do not think that it is the case that justice is something that is not vital. I think it is of vital importance. And it's of vital importance when we look at our current justice system, which in the last 14 years—. We have increased our prison population from 45,000 to 90,000 and we're now looking to invest another £400 million to put yet more people in prison. You ask where is the limit? If that isn't an indication that the justice system is failing and that something is massively wrong, then we really need to go back to basics to look at the facts.
We start raising these things in the Inter-ministerial Group for Justice and, of course, they will come about through other discussions. I will be chairing the Interministerial Standing Committee later in February. This is one of the issues that I will be reporting on there. It is a discussion that needs to take place, for all the reasons we had in that very long contribution I made earlier on, which I could see the Llywydd glaring at me over. [Laughter.]
Diolch am eich cwestiwn. Wrth gwrs, pan fyddwch chi'n wynebu etholiad cyffredinol, pan fyddwch chi'n dechrau edrych ar y prif faterion, rwy'n deall eich bod eisiau nodi beth yw'r materion pwysicaf a mwyaf uniongyrchol. Ac wrth gwrs, mae yna faterion blaenoriaethol, ymbarél eang ac yn y blaen. Nid wyf yn credu ei bod yn wir fod cyfiawnder yn rhywbeth nad yw'n hanfodol. Rwy'n credu ei fod yn hanfodol bwysig. Ac mae'n hanfodol bwysig wrth edrych ar ein system gyfiawnder bresennol, sydd yn ystod y 14 mlynedd diwethaf—. Rydym wedi cynyddu poblogaeth ein carchardai o 45,000 i 90,000 ac rydym bellach yn bwriadu buddsoddi £400 miliwn arall i roi mwy fyth o bobl yn y carchar. Rydych chi'n gofyn lle mae'r terfyn? Os nad yw hynny'n arwydd fod y system gyfiawnder yn methu a bod rhywbeth mawr o'i le, mae gwir angen inni fynd yn ôl at y pethau sylfaenol i edrych ar y ffeithiau.
Rydym yn dechrau codi'r pethau hyn yn y Grŵp Rhyngweinidogol dros Gyfiawnder ac wrth gwrs, byddant yn digwydd trwy drafodaethau eraill. Byddaf yn cadeirio'r Pwyllgor Sefydlog Rhyngweinidogol yn ddiweddarach ym mis Chwefror. Dyma un o'r materion y byddaf yn adrodd arnynt yno. Mae'n drafodaeth y mae angen ei chael, am yr holl resymau a gawsom yn y cyfraniad hir iawn a wneuthum yn gynharach, y gallwn weld y Llywydd yn rhythu arnaf o'i herwydd. [Chwerthin.]
7. Pa ystyriaeth y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi'i rhoi i ganfyddiad y Comisiwn Annibynnol ar Ddyfodol Cyfansoddiadol Cymru o ran egwyddor cydsyniad deddfwriaethol? OQ60627
7. What consideration has the Welsh Government given to the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales’s finding on the principle of legislative consent? OQ60627
The principle of legislative consent lies at the heart of the devolution settlements and the Welsh Government has long argued that the Sewel convention is in need of reform. We are considering the commission’s thoughtful recommendations on this.
Mae egwyddor cydsyniad deddfwriaethol yn ganolog i'r setliadau datganoli ac mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi dadlau ers tro byd fod angen diwygio confensiwn Sewel. Rydym yn ystyried argymhellion ystyrlon y comisiwn ar hyn.
The commission's report, of course, stresses the pressing need to reform the Sewel convention and put it on a statutory footing, so that Westminster is no longer able to ride roughshod over our devolution settlement and legislate in devolved areas against the express will of this Senedd. I'd ask, please, for a little more clarity on how the Welsh Government is pursuing implementation of this recommendation and for the Counsel General to outline a road map to delivering this with urgency. There is, of course, a further principle of consent dealt with in the report and here I'm quoting directly from it:
'The starting point for any consideration of constitutional options should be the principle that the UK is a voluntary union of nations.... Therefore, the people of Wales should have the right to determine the constitutional future of their nation.'
Does the Counsel General therefore agree with me that this means that the right to decide on the constitutional future of Wales—that is the right to hold a referendum on Wales's constitutional status—should be devolved to Wales, and if so, will he outline what steps he will take to secure this?
Mae adroddiad y comisiwn, wrth gwrs, yn pwysleisio'r angen dybryd i ddiwygio confensiwn Sewel a'i roi ar sail statudol, fel nad yw San Steffan bellach yn gallu chwalu ein setliad datganoli a deddfu mewn meysydd datganoledig yn erbyn ewyllys ddatganedig y Senedd hon. Hoffwn ofyn, os gwelwch yn dda, am ychydig mwy o eglurder ynglŷn â sut mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn mynd ati i weithredu'r argymhelliad hwn ac i'r Cwnsler Cyffredinol amlinellu cynllun i gyflawni hyn ar frys. Wrth gwrs, caiff egwyddor cydsyniad pellach ei thrafod yn yr adroddiad a dyma ddyfynnu'n uniongyrchol ohono:
'Dylai’r egwyddor mai undeb wirfoddol o genhedloedd yw’r DU fod yn fan cychwyn i unrhyw ystyriaeth o opsiynau cyfansoddiadol.... Felly, dylai pobl Cymru gael yr hawl i bennu dyfodol cyfansoddiadol eu cenedl.'
A yw'r Cwnsler Cyffredinol yn cytuno â mi felly fod hyn yn golygu y dylid datganoli'r hawl i benderfynu ar ddyfodol cyfansoddiadol Cymru—yr hawl i gynnal refferendwm ar statws cyfansoddiadol Cymru—i Gymru, ac os felly, a wnaiff amlinellu pa gamau y bydd yn eu cymryd i sicrhau hyn?
Well, can I say, just taking that last point first, I think that any party that obtains a mandate for those reforms and those changes is entitled to see them put to the people? That has always been the case, in terms of my opinion. I think it's also the position that the First Minister has presented, and that must be right, in terms of our democratic system.
Turning to Sewel, of course, Sewel I've always described as being almost like the engine oil in a car engine—all of the different components that make up the four nations, the oil that enables them all to work together. Of course, the breach of Sewel begins to cause that process to seize, and that's where we are heading towards at the moment, with all the breaches of Sewel that have taken place.
I have to say that I'm very impressed with the contribution that Gordon Brown made in his report. I'm very pleased at the references to it within the independent commission's report, which recognises, I think, things that we have been saying consistently all along—and not just us, actually: inter-parliamentary forums of all political parties have actually been saying the same thing.
Can I also say that I was very pleased, in that same interview that you referred to, with what Jo Stevens said about Sewel, in terms of when she talked about the strengthening of devolution? She said, that, 'Well, it means that, for example, the Sewel convention, which means that what we have seen from Conservative Governments, where they ride roughshod over the devolution settlement—the internal markets Act—legislating on things that are the responsibility of the Welsh Government and the Senedd, you won't see that from the UK Labour Government. You'll see better inter-governmental relations. You'll see professional working, collaboration, trust and respect—and respecting not just the situation now, but in the future.'
Now, I think that that is a very important statement. I think that it leads on to the fact that we need to look at how we consolidate Sewel, possibly in line with the recommendations from the Gordon Brown report, but in other ways. That is its status. Now, of course, we used to have the Ponsonby convention on treaties. I'm sorry to sound like a bit of a legal nerd now. But, of course, that was converted into legislation to ensure that Parliament had an opportunity to actually scrutinise, and I think that we do need to head in the longer term into something that puts it on a solid and justiciable constitutional basis.
Wel, a gaf i ddweud, gan gymryd y pwynt olaf hwnnw yn gyntaf, rwy'n credu bod gan unrhyw blaid sy'n cael mandad ar gyfer y diwygiadau hynny a'r newidiadau hynny hawl i'w gweld yn cael eu rhoi gerbron y bobl? Mae hynny bob amser wedi bod yn wir, yn fy marn i. Rwy'n credu mai dyna hefyd yw'r safbwynt y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi'i gyflwyno, a rhaid bod hynny'n iawn, o ran ein system ddemocrataidd.
Gan droi at Sewel, rwyf bob amser wedi disgrifio Sewel bron fel yr olew yn injan y car—yr holl elfennau gwahanol sy'n ffurfio'r pedair gwlad, yr olew sy'n eu galluogi oll i gydweithio. Wrth gwrs, mae torri amodau Sewel yn dechrau achosi i'r broses honno fethu, a dyna'r cyfeiriad yr ydym yn anelu tuag ato ar hyn o bryd, gyda'r holl achosion o dorri amodau Sewel sydd wedi digwydd.
Rhaid imi ddweud fy mod wedi fy mhlesio'n fawr gyda'r cyfraniad a wnaeth Gordon Brown yn ei adroddiad. Rwy'n falch iawn o'r cyfeiriadau ato yn adroddiad y comisiwn annibynnol, sy'n cydnabod, rwy'n credu, y pethau y buom yn eu dweud yn gyson ar hyd yr amser—ac nid ni'n unig: mae fforymau rhyngseneddol pob plaid wleidyddol wedi bod yn dweud yr un peth.
A gaf i ddweud hefyd, yn yr un cyfweliad ag y cyfeirioch chi ato, fy mod yn falch iawn ynghylch yr hyn a ddywedodd Jo Stevens am Sewel, pan siaradodd am gryfhau datganoli? Dywedodd, 'Wel, mae'n golygu, er enghraifft, gyda chonfensiwn Sewel, na fyddwch yn gweld gan Lywodraeth Lafur y DU yr hyn a welsom gan Lywodraethau Ceidwadol, lle maent yn chwalu'r setliad datganoli—y Ddeddf marchnad fewnol—gan ddeddfu ar bethau sy'n gyfrifoldeb Llywodraeth Cymru a'r Senedd. Fe welwch well cysylltiadau rhynglywodraethol. Fe welwch waith proffesiynol, cydweithio, ymddiriedaeth a pharch—a pharch nid yn unig at y sefyllfa nawr, ond yn y dyfodol.'
Nawr, rwy'n credu bod hwnnw'n ddatganiad pwysig iawn. Rwy'n credu ei fod yn arwain at y ffaith bod angen inni edrych ar sut yr atgyfnerthwn Sewel, yn unol ag argymhellion adroddiad Gordon Brown o bosibl, ond mewn ffyrdd eraill. Dyna yw ei statws. Nawr, wrth gwrs, o'r blaen roedd gennym gonfensiwn Ponsonby ar gytuniadau. Mae'n ddrwg gennyf swnio fel tipyn o 'nerd' cyfreithiol nawr. Ond wrth gwrs, cafodd hwnnw ei droi'n ddeddfwriaeth i sicrhau bod Senedd y DU yn cael cyfle i graffu mewn gwirionedd, ac rwy'n credu bod angen inni anelu yn fwy hirdymor tuag at rywbeth sy'n ei roi ar sail gadarn a chyfansoddiadol draddodadwy.
Ac yn olaf, cwestiwn 8—Gareth Davies.
And finally, question 8—Gareth Davies.
8. Pa gyngor cyfreithiol y mae'r Cwnsler Cyffredinol wedi'i roi i Lywodraeth Cymru ar effaith Deddf Iechyd Meddwl 1983 ar gleifion o Gymru sy'n defnyddio gwasanaethau yng ngwledydd eraill y DU? OQ60624
8. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government on the impact of the Mental Health Act 1983 on Welsh patients using services in other UK nations? OQ60624
Well, thank you very much for the question. The Mental Health Act 1983 is the key legislation relating to mental health care and treatment. High-quality mental health services for all in Wales is a priority. We aim to provide care close to home wherever possible and to reduce the need for in-patient care through continued investment and community services.
Wel, diolch yn fawr iawn am y cwestiwn. Deddf Iechyd Meddwl 1983 yw'r ddeddfwriaeth allweddol sy'n ymwneud â gofal a thriniaeth iechyd meddwl. Mae gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl o ansawdd uchel i bawb yng Nghymru yn flaenoriaeth. Ein nod yw darparu gofal yn agos at adref lle bynnag y bo'n bosibl a lleihau'r angen am ofal cleifion mewnol trwy fuddsoddiad parhaus a gwasanaethau cymunedol.
Thank you for that response, Counsel General. It has been brought to my attention that it is fairly common practice for patients, once sectioned under the Mental Health Act, to be transferred to a facility anywhere in the United Kingdom for clinical mental health treatment. This means that a patient from Anglesey, for example, could be transferred to a treatment facility in Cornwall, with no right to request a transfer somewhere closer to home.
As far as I'm aware, there is more leeway with regards to Scotland after amendments to the Mental Health Act in 2007, but Wales and England are treated almost as a single entity. This can, of course, cause further stress and anguish amongst patients who have been sectioned and transferred to England, potentially hundreds of miles away from friends and family. Some patients' families may not have the means or facility to travel these distances to see their loved ones, and the anguish caused by being in an alien environment so far away from family will not help attempts to remedy their mental illness.
A constituent of mine finds themselves in this exact predicament, where they are being housed in a treatment facility in England, and they wish to be repatriated to Wales. Can the Counsel General please outline what advice you have given or could give to the health Minister regarding how much discretion Welsh Ministers have under the Mental Health Act when taking into consideration the preferences of patients who have been sectioned, namely their preference to be placed into a treatment facility that is a reasonable distance from their home and in Wales?
Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw, Gwnsler Cyffredinol. Tynnwyd fy sylw at y ffaith ei bod yn arfer eithaf cyffredin i gleifion, a oedd ar un adeg yn cael eu cadw dan orchymyn y Ddeddf Iechyd Meddwl, gael eu trosglwyddo i gyfleuster yn unrhyw le yn y Deyrnas Unedig ar gyfer triniaeth iechyd meddwl glinigol. Mae hyn yn golygu y gallai claf o Ynys Môn, er enghraifft, gael ei drosglwyddo i gyfleuster triniaeth yng Nghernyw, heb unrhyw hawl i ofyn am gael ei drosglwyddo i rywle'n agosach at adref.
Hyd y gwn i, mae mwy o ryddid gan yr Alban ar ôl diwygiadau i'r Ddeddf Iechyd Meddwl yn 2007, ond mae Cymru a Lloegr yn cael eu trin bron fel un endid. Gall hyn achosi straen a gofid pellach ymhlith cleifion sydd wedi cael eu cadw dan orchymyn a'u trosglwyddo i Loegr, gannoedd o filltiroedd i ffwrdd o bosibl oddi wrth ffrindiau a theulu. Efallai na fydd gan deuluoedd rhai cleifion fodd o deithio'r pellteroedd hyn i weld eu hanwyliaid, ac ni fydd y gofid a achosir o fod mewn amgylchedd estron mor bell i ffwrdd oddi wrth eu teulu'n helpu ymdrechion i wella eu salwch meddwl.
Mae un o fy etholwyr yn y sefyllfa hon, lle cânt eu cadw mewn cyfleuster triniaeth yn Lloegr, ac maent yn dymuno dychwelyd i Gymru. A all y Cwnsler Cyffredinol amlinellu pa gyngor a roddwyd gennych neu y gallech ei roi i'r Gweinidog iechyd ynghylch faint o ddisgresiwn sydd gan Weinidogion Cymru o dan y Ddeddf Iechyd Meddwl wrth ystyried dewisiadau cleifion sydd wedi cael eu cadw dan orchymyn, pan fyddant yn dewis cael eu rhoi mewn cyfleuster triniaeth o fewn pellter rhesymol i'w cartref ac yng Nghymru?
Can I thank you for that supplementary question? Can I thank you also for the dedication and attention you've given to this issue of mental health? Of course, I'm aware that you have the ballot to introduce a Senedd Bill relating to mental health. You've been given leave to introduce that. So, it's very much welcome and we recognise that commitment that you've given in that.
Can I say that most of the points you raised probably do need to be addressed to the appropriate Minister? But what I can say is that our aim, as Welsh Government, is to ensure that patients receive care as close to home as possible and to reduce the need for in-patient care through continued investment in community mental health services. In the last two years, Welsh Government has allocated £26.5 million to health boards through service improvements and to improve the availability of mental health service provisions. There's also been the establishment of the '111 press 2' service in terms of urgent mental health support and so on. The issues you raised are clearly important. I will ensure that the points you raised are passed over to the appropriate Minister on that, because I think it's appropriate that she responds specifically to that.
A gaf i ddiolch i chi am y cwestiwn atodol hwnnw? A gaf i ddiolch i chi hefyd am yr ymroddiad a'r sylw yr ydych wedi'i roi i iechyd meddwl? Wrth gwrs, rwy'n ymwybodol fod gennych bleidlais i gyflwyno Bil Senedd sy'n ymwneud ag iechyd meddwl. Rydych chi wedi cael caniatâd i'w gyflwyno. Mae croeso mawr iddo ac rydym yn cydnabod yr ymrwymiad sydd gennych i hynny.
A gaf i ddweud bod angen cyfeirio'r rhan fwyaf o'r pwyntiau a godwyd gennych at y Gweinidog priodol? Ond gallaf ddweud mai ein nod, fel Llywodraeth Cymru, yw sicrhau bod cleifion yn derbyn gofal mor agos â phosibl at eu cartrefi a lleihau'r angen am ofal cleifion mewnol drwy barhau i fuddsoddi mewn gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl cymunedol. Yn ystod y ddwy flynedd ddiwethaf, mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi dyrannu £26.5 miliwn i fyrddau iechyd drwy welliannau i wasanaethau ac i wella argaeledd y ddarpariaeth o wasanaethau iechyd meddwl. Hefyd, sefydlwyd gwasanaeth '111 pwyso 2' ar gyfer cymorth iechyd meddwl brys ac yn y blaen. Mae'r materion a godwyd gennych yn amlwg yn bwysig. Byddaf yn sicrhau bod y pwyntiau a godwch yn cael eu trosglwyddo i'r Gweinidog priodol ar hynny, gan y credaf ei bod yn briodol ei bod hi'n ymateb yn benodol i hynny.
Diolch i'r Cwnsler Cyffredinol.
I thank the Counsel General.
Fe symudwn ni ymlaen nawr i eitem 3, sef cwestiynau i Gomisiwn y Senedd. Mae'r cwestiynau heddiw i'w hateb gan y Llywydd, ac mae'r cwestiwn cyntaf gan James Evans.
We'll move now to item 3, questions to the Senedd Commission. These questions are to be answered by the Llywydd, and the first question is from James Evans.
1. Pa gamau y mae'r Comisiwn yn eu cymryd i sicrhau bod y cyhoedd yn cael eu haddysgu am rôl y Senedd? OQ60606
1. What steps does the Commission take to ensure the public are educated about the role of the Senedd? OQ60606
Mae ein strategaeth gyfathrebu ac ymgysylltu'n gosod amcanion i godi ymwybyddiaeth a gwella dealltwriaeth o rôl y Senedd. Y llynedd, gwnaethom ymgysylltu â 22,000 o bobl ifanc mewn sesiynau addysg a digwyddiadau'r Senedd Ieuenctid. Gwnaethom hefyd groesawu dros 150,000 o ymwelwyr i'r Senedd ac ymgysylltu â dros 6,000 o bobl yn ystod ein rhaglen sioeau haf a digwyddiadau. Mae rhan fawr o'n strategaeth cyfryngau cymdeithasol yn ymwneud ag egluro ein gwaith i'r cyhoedd hefyd.
Our communications and engagement strategy sets objectives to raise awareness and increase understanding of the role of the Senedd. Last year, we engaged with 22,000 young people in education sessions and Welsh Youth Parliament events. We also welcomed over 150,000 visitors to the Senedd and engaged with over 6,000 people during our summer shows programme and other events. A major part of our social media strategy involves explaining our work to the public too.
Diolch, Llywydd. One thing that does strike me every time I go out canvassing is, actually, how, sometimes, ill-informed the electorate are about what the Senedd actually does. It's amazing the number of doors I actually knock on that still think the health service is a reserved matter back in Westminster. But it doesn't help when you've got political parties—. I was at a recent by-election in my constituency where they had an election candidate for the Liberal Democrats going around telling everybody in the council how he was going to fix the health service and how he was going to improve the economy of Wales. These things aren't devolved to local councils; I'm talking about national issues. So, I'd like to know what work do the Commission do to actually engage with political parties when they are spreading falsehoods on the doorstep, because that does actually affect what our electorate do understand about the role of what we do here as Members of the Senedd, standing up for our constituents on matters that affect Wales.
Diolch, Lywydd. Un peth sy'n fy nharo bob tro rwy'n mynd allan i ganfasio mewn gwirionedd, yw'r ffordd nad yw'r etholwyr yn ymwybodol weithiau o'r hyn y mae'r Senedd yn ei wneud mewn gwirionedd. Mae'n anhygoel faint o ddrysau yr wyf wedi curo arnynt sy'n dal i feddwl bod y gwasanaeth iechyd yn fater a gadwyd yn ôl yn San Steffan. Ond nid yw'n helpu pan fydd gennych bleidiau gwleidyddol—. Roeddwn mewn isetholiad yn fy etholaeth yn ddiweddar lle roedd ganddynt ymgeisydd etholiadol dros y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn mynd o gwmpas yn dweud wrth bawb yn y cyngor sut y byddai'n trwsio'r gwasanaeth iechyd a sut y byddai'n gwella economi Cymru. Nid yw'r pethau hyn wedi'u datganoli i gynghorau lleol; rwy'n siarad am faterion cenedlaethol. Felly, hoffwn wybod pa waith y mae'r Comisiwn yn ei wneud i ymgysylltu â phleidiau gwleidyddol pan fyddant yn lledaenu anwireddau ar garreg y drws, gan fod hynny'n effeithio ar yr hyn y mae ein hetholwyr yn ei ddeall am rôl yr hyn a wnawn yma fel Aelodau o'r Senedd ar ran ein hetholwyr ar faterion sy'n effeithio ar Gymru.
I think you raise a really interesting and challenging point there, requiring a great deal of self-discipline on behalf of all political parties and all politicians. How many MPs write to the Minister for Economy here on matters that are devolved to the Minister for Economy or the Minister for health? And equally, how many Senedd Members write to, possibly, a Secretary of State, or even their local council to fix a pothole in a street in Llanrwst, or anywhere? So, yes, I agree that we all need to be upfront, honest and clear with the electorate on who has responsibility for what, and political parties most definitely have a role to play in that. But I suspect that, on this one, more than anything, it starts at our very own doorsteps, at ourselves being really clear with our constituents that, on matters relating to the benefits system, they need to talk to their MP and that, on matters relating to the pothole, they need to speak to their local councillor.
Rwy'n credu eich bod yn codi pwynt diddorol a heriol iawn yno, sy'n galw am lawer iawn o hunanddisgyblaeth ar ran bob plaid wleidyddol a phob gwleidydd. Faint o Aelodau Seneddol sy'n ysgrifennu at Weinidog yr Economi yma ar faterion sydd wedi'u datganoli i Weinidog yr Economi neu'r Gweinidog iechyd? Ac yn yr un modd, faint o Aelodau'r Senedd sy'n ysgrifennu, o bosibl, at Ysgrifennydd Gwladol, neu hyd yn oed at eu cyngor lleol i drwsio twll yn y ffordd ar stryd yn Llanrwst, neu rywle? Felly, ydw, rwy'n cytuno bod angen inni fod yn blaen, yn onest ac yn glir gyda'r etholwyr ynglŷn â phwy sydd â chyfrifoldeb dros beth, ac yn bendant mae gan bleidiau gwleidyddol ran i'w chwarae yn hynny. Ond rwy'n tybio bod hyn yn dechrau, yn anad dim, ar garreg ein drws ein hunain, a'n bod ni ein hunain yn glir iawn gyda'n hetholwyr, ar faterion sy'n ymwneud â'r system fudd-daliadau, fod angen iddynt siarad â'u Haelod Seneddol ac ar faterion sy'n ymwneud â thyllau yn y ffordd, fod angen iddynt siarad â'u cynghorydd lleol.
2. Pa gamau y mae'r Comisiwn yn eu cymryd i annog ysgolion yn Nyffryn Clwyd i ymweld â'r Senedd? OQ60626
2. What steps is the Commission taking to encourage schools in Vale of Clwyd to visit the Senedd? OQ60626
Mae ymweliadau addysgol â'r Senedd ar gael i bob grŵp ysgol a choleg ledled Cymru. Mae archebion ar gyfer y flwyddyn academaidd ganlynol ar gael ym mis Mehefin ac yn cael eu dyrannu ar sail y cyntaf i'r felin. Mae ein cymhorthdal teithio yn darparu cymorth ariannol i'r rai sy'n cymryd rhan mewn ymweliadau addysgol sy'n teithio o'r tu allan i radiws o 10 milltir i'r Senedd. Rydym yn edrych ymlaen at groesawu Ysgol Tremeirchion, Ysgol Gynradd Esgob Morgan ac Ysgol Uwchradd Dinbych dros y misoedd nesaf i'r Senedd—tair o ysgolion o'ch etholaeth chi.
Educational visits to the Senedd are available to all school and college groups across Wales. Bookings for the following academic year are made available in June and allocated on a first-come, first-served basis. Our travel subsidy provides financial support to those taking part in educational visits who travel from outside a 10-mile radius of the Senedd. We're looking forward to welcoming Ysgol Tremeirchion, Esgob Morgan Primary School and Denbigh High School over the coming months to the Senedd—three schools from your constituency.
Diolch am yr ymateb, Llywydd.
Thank you for that response, Llywydd.
I welcome the Senedd Commission's engagement with schools across Wales to speak to Members and learn about the work of the Senedd and to learn, indeed, about devolution in Wales. I'm pleased that pupils from Ysgol Gynradd Pant Pastynog Primary School and Ysgol Tremeirchion from my constituency have today visited the Senedd, which, I'm sure, has been a memorable experience for the children, although, sadly, I wasn't able to meet them, as I'm in the Chamber most of the afternoon. There is a good deal of engagement between schools and Senedd Members virtually, but this, of course, doesn't compare to the real thing. It's much more engaging for school pupils to visit the Senedd in person, be given a tour of the building, watch First Minister's questions, take part in sessions that are put on for school pupils. All of this is a positive thing for the future of devolution, for children to learn and become engaged in Welsh democracy.
In my time here in the Senedd, however, there haven't been many school visits from my constituency. I have heard from schools who have said they have found arranging visits to the UK Parliament an easier process, and the opportunity to do so is better advertised. Of course, I would like pupils in the Vale of Clwyd to be as engaged in Welsh politics as much as UK politics more broadly, and their familiarity with the institution is essential for that. A visit to the Palace of Westminster is bound to leave more of a lasting impression on schoolchildren than a Zoom call with their Senedd Member. I would like to ask, then, Llywydd, what is the Commission doing to ensure that schools are aware of the opportunities available, such as the travel subsidy, that in-person Senedd visits are promoted to schools and the importance of pupils' education about Welsh democratic institutions is stressed. Thanks.
Rwy'n croesawu ymgysylltiad Comisiwn y Senedd ag ysgolion ledled Cymru i siarad ag Aelodau a dysgu am waith y Senedd ac i ddysgu, yn wir, am ddatganoli yng Nghymru. Rwy'n falch fod disgyblion Ysgol Gynradd Pant Pastynog ac Ysgol Tremeirchion yn fy etholaeth wedi ymweld â'r Senedd heddiw, sydd wedi bod yn brofiad cofiadwy i'r plant, rwy'n siŵr, er na allwn eu cyfarfod, yn anffodus, gan fy mod yn y Siambr am y rhan fwyaf o'r prynhawn. Mae cryn dipyn o ymgysylltu rhwng ysgolion ac Aelodau'r Senedd yn rhithiol, ond nid yw hynny'n cymharu â'r profiad go iawn wrth gwrs. Mae'n llawer mwy deniadol i ddisgyblion ysgol ymweld â'r Senedd yn bersonol, cael taith o amgylch yr adeilad, gwylio cwestiynau i'r Prif Weinidog, cymryd rhan mewn sesiynau sy'n cael eu cynnal ar gyfer disgyblion ysgol. Mae hyn i gyd yn gadarnhaol ar gyfer dyfodol datganoli, i blant ddysgu a chymryd rhan mewn democratiaeth yng Nghymru.
Yn fy nghyfnod yma yn y Senedd, fodd bynnag, ni fu llawer o ymweliadau ysgol o fy etholaeth. Rwyf wedi clywed gan ysgolion sydd wedi dweud bod trefnu ymweliadau â Senedd y DU yn broses haws, a bod y cyfle i wneud hynny yn cael ei hysbysebu'n well. Wrth gwrs, hoffwn i ddisgyblion Dyffryn Clwyd gymryd rhan lawn yng ngwleidyddiaeth Cymru lawn cymaint â gwleidyddiaeth y DU yn ehangach, ac mae eu cynefindra â'r sefydliad yn hanfodol ar gyfer hynny. Mae ymweliad â San Steffan yn sicr o adael mwy o argraff barhaol ar blant ysgol na galwad Zoom gyda'u Haelod o'r Senedd. Hoffwn ofyn, felly, Lywydd, beth mae'r Comisiwn yn ei wneud i sicrhau bod ysgolion yn ymwybodol o'r cyfleoedd sydd ar gael, fel y cymhorthdal teithio, fod ymweliadau personol â'r Senedd yn cael eu hyrwyddo i ysgolion, ac i bwysleisio pwysigrwydd addysgu disgyblion am sefydliadau democrataidd Cymru. Diolch.
Well, in my time, when schoolchildren from my constituency have visited here, they have been amazed to see such a modern, fantastic building that they are represented within in Wales, and I think that there's a responsibility both on the Commission, yes, to make sure that the ability to visit the Senedd is known to all schools in Wales, and we make every effort to ensure that, but I'd suggest also that you, as a local Member in your constituency, make sure that your schools are fully involved and engaged and are able to visit here as well. They are as welcome and, hopefully, as interested in their Senedd as any other place in Wales.
Wel, yn fy amser i, pan fydd plant ysgol o fy etholaeth i wedi ymweld â'r lle hwn, maent wedi rhyfeddu wrth weld adeilad mor fodern a gwych lle cânt eu cynrychioli ynddo yng Nghymru, ac rwy'n credu bod cyfrifoldeb ar y Comisiwn, oes, i sicrhau bod y gallu i ymweld â'r Senedd yn hysbys i bob ysgol yng Nghymru, a'n bod yn gwneud pob ymdrech i sicrhau hynny, ond hoffwn awgrymu hefyd eich bod chi, fel Aelod lleol yn eich etholaeth, yn sicrhau bod eich ysgolion yn cymryd rhan lawn ac yn ymgysylltu'n llawn ac yn gallu ymweld â'r lle hwn hefyd. Mae llawn cymaint o groeso iddynt yma ag yn unrhyw le arall yng Nghymru, a gobeithio bod ganddynt lawn cymaint o ddiddordeb yn eu Senedd ag yn unrhyw le arall yng Nghymru.
Diolch i'r Llywydd.
I thank the Llywydd.
Fe symudwn ni ymlaen nawr i eitem 4, sef cwestiynau amserol. Mae'r cwestiwn cyntaf i'w ateb gan Weinidog yr Economi, ac mae Joyce Watson i ofyn y cwestiwn. Joyce Watson.
We'll move on now to item 4, which is the topical questions. The first question is to be answered by the Minister for Economy, and is to be asked by Joyce Watson. Joyce Watson.
1. A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am ddatblygiadau mewn perthynas â Fferm Gilestone yn dilyn y Datganiad Ysgrifenedig a gyhoeddwyd ar 29 Ionawr 2024? TQ969
1. Will the Minister provide an update on developments regarding Gilestone Farm following the Written Statement issued on 29 January 2024? TQ969
Since the written statement of 29 January 2024, my officials have met with Talybont-on-Usk Community Council to discuss the findings of the osprey conservation report. The community council are supportive of engaging on future plans for the site, which we will ensure continue to align with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015.
Ers y datganiad ysgrifenedig ar 29 Ionawr 2024, mae fy swyddogion wedi cyfarfod â Chyngor Cymuned Tal-y-bont ar Wysg i drafod canfyddiadau'r adroddiad ar gadwraeth gweilch y pysgod. Mae'r cyngor cymuned yn gefnogol i ymgysylltu ar gynlluniau ar gyfer y safle yn y dyfodol, cynlluniau y byddwn yn sicrhau eu bod yn parhau i gyd-fynd â Deddf Llesiant Cenedlaethau'r Dyfodol (Cymru) 2015.
I thank you for that answer, Minister. I suppose I should start by declaring my registered interest as a member of the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, because I'm delighted about the ospreys. As a regular visitor of the Dyfi osprey project, I've watched it grow into a world-leading wildlife business, attracting huge numbers of visitors and international interest, so there are economic opportunities here that are worth exploring. The site itself remains a valuable asset, and I'd welcome an update on the next steps that you plan to pursue, particularly in terms of helping young people to build careers locally. Of course, Green Man remains the standout success, a great advert for Wales's cultural offer, and it should be championed by all MSs.
But, on the subject of registering interests, and following up a point I made here last year, I note that the leader of the Welsh Conservative group has now tabled 90 written questions on this matter, far more than he's tabled on issues like steel, or issues like manufacturing. Some of those questions included reference to a declared interest, but many didn't. He also declared an interest when submitting questions, while failing to do the same when raising the matter verbally over the same time period. So, I hope that the Member can clarify his interest and why he failed to declare it when challenging the First Minister on this issue in the Chamber. Do you agree with me, Minister, that, given the public interest and the debate around Gilestone Farm, it's vital that there is transparency on all these matters?
Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw, Weinidog. Mae'n debyg y dylwn ddechrau drwy ddatgan fy niddordeb cofrestredig fel aelod o'r Gymdeithas Frenhinol er Gwarchod Adar, oherwydd rwyf wrth fy modd ynghylch y gweilch. Fel ymwelydd rheolaidd â phrosiect gweilch Dyfi, rwyf wedi ei wylio'n tyfu'n fusnes bywyd gwyllt sy'n arwain y byd, gan ddenu nifer enfawr o ymwelwyr a diddordeb rhyngwladol, felly mae cyfleoedd economaidd yma sy'n werth eu harchwilio. Mae'r safle ei hun yn parhau i fod yn ased gwerthfawr, a buaswn yn croesawu diweddariad ar y camau nesaf y bwriadwch eu dilyn, yn enwedig helpu pobl ifanc i adeiladu gyrfaoedd yn lleol. Wrth gwrs, mae gŵyl y Dyn Gwyrdd yn llwyddiant nodedig, yn hysbyseb wych ar gyfer cynnig diwylliannol Cymru, a dylai gael ei hyrwyddo gan bob Aelod o'r Senedd.
Ond ar fater cofrestru buddiannau, ac i fynd ar drywydd pwynt a wneuthum yma y llynedd, nodaf fod arweinydd grŵp y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig bellach wedi cyflwyno 90 o gwestiynau ysgrifenedig ar y mater hwn, llawer mwy nag y mae wedi'u cyflwyno ar faterion fel dur, neu faterion fel gweithgynhyrchu. Roedd rhai o'r cwestiynau hynny'n cynnwys cyfeiriad at fuddiant a gafodd ei ddatgan, ond roedd yna lawer nad oedd yn gwneud hynny. Fe wnaeth ddatgan buddiant hefyd wrth gyflwyno cwestiynau, gan fethu gwneud yr un peth wrth godi'r mater ar lafar dros yr un cyfnod o amser. Felly, rwy'n gobeithio y gall yr Aelod egluro ei fuddiant a pham na lwyddodd i'w ddatgan wrth herio'r Prif Weinidog ar y mater yn y Siambr. A ydych chi'n cytuno, Weinidog, o ystyried budd y cyhoedd a'r ddadl ynghylch Fferm Gilestone, ei bod yn hanfodol sicrhau tryloywder ynghylch yr holl faterion hyn?
Thank you for the question. Ninety written questions is an extraordinary amount to devote to a single topic. I think it is important that all Members are clear about where they have an interest and, if they haven't done so, that they declare it promptly. It's a matter, of course, for the chair and the authorities responsible for the Senedd procedures, and I don't want to draw myself into acting as if I'm the person making that determination, but members of the public will have their own view, I'm sure, about the matter the Member has raised.
I think transparency is important and transparency is what we're trying to do around Gilestone Farm. And I'm really pleased you mentioned Green Man, and I hope that Members across this Chamber do take up the point that Joyce Watson made. Green Man is a tremendous advert for Wales. It's a highly successful brand. It sells out within hours. And I still want to see businesses like that succeed in mid Wales, to provide economic opportunities and an economic future for young people within Powys and mid Wales, and we will carry on working with them.
It's great of you to remind us, of course, that you're a member of the RSPB, and this is the first time for more than 200 years that the ospreys have nested this far south in Wales. When we became aware of the matter at the end of summer 2023, we immediately took steps to try and commission a report and that leads us to where we are now. But I'm sure that, whilst the leader of the opposition isn't here, he will have heard the points you will have made and will want to take his own steps to deal with the matter.
Diolch am y cwestiwn. Mae 90 cwestiwn ysgrifenedig yn nifer anhygoel i'w neilltuo i un pwnc. Rwy'n credu ei bod yn bwysig fod yr holl Aelodau'n glir pan fo ganddynt fuddiant, ac os nad ydynt wedi gwneud hynny, eu bod yn datgan hynny ar unwaith. Mae'n fater i'r cadeirydd a'r awdurdodau sy'n gyfrifol am weithdrefnau'r Senedd wrth gwrs, ac nid wyf am ymroi i weithredu fel pe bai'n benderfyniad a wneir gennyf i, ond bydd gan aelodau o'r cyhoedd eu barn eu hunain, rwy'n siŵr, am y mater y mae'r Aelod wedi'i godi.
Rwy'n credu bod tryloywder yn bwysig a thryloywder yw'r hyn y ceisiwn ei wneud mewn perthynas â Fferm Gilestone. Ac rwy'n falch iawn eich bod wedi sôn am ŵyl y Dyn Gwyrdd, ac rwy'n gobeithio y bydd Aelodau ar draws y Siambr yn derbyn y pwynt a wnaeth Joyce Watson. Mae gŵyl y Dyn Gwyrdd yn hysbyseb aruthrol i Gymru. Mae'n frand llwyddiannus iawn. Mae'n gwerthu ei holl docynnau o fewn oriau'n unig. Ac rwy'n dal i fod eisiau gweld busnesau o'r fath yn llwyddo yng nghanolbarth Cymru i ddarparu cyfleoedd economaidd a dyfodol economaidd i bobl ifanc ym Mhowys a'r canolbarth, a byddwn yn parhau i weithio gyda nhw.
Mae'n wych eich bod wedi ein hatgoffa, wrth gwrs, eich bod yn aelod o'r RSPB, a dyma'r tro cyntaf ers dros 200 mlynedd i weilch y pysgod nythu mor bell i'r de yng Nghymru. Pan ddaethom yn ymwybodol o'r mater ar ddiwedd haf 2023, fe wnaethom gymryd camau ar unwaith i geisio comisiynu adroddiad ac mae hynny'n ein harwain at ble rydym nawr. Ond er nad yw arweinydd yr wrthblaid yma, rwy'n siŵr y bydd wedi clywed y pwyntiau a wnaethoch ac y bydd am roi camau ar waith ei hun i ymdrin â'r mater.
Minister, I'd like to thank you for your statement that you made the other day, but I hate to say that there's a bit of, 'I told you so', about all of this. A lot of people in my community are very angry about the situation that we actually find ourselves in.
The basic due diligence of Welsh Government has to be questioned over this purchase. A basic desktop exercise on Gilestone Farm would have told Welsh Government officials all they needed to know. I don't lay all the blame at your door, Minister, because you are advised on what you have to do. Yes, you make the ultimate decision, but a basic search of that farm would have told you that there were issues with it from the start.
The community raised concerns from the start about biodiversity and species on the site. They were ignored. So, what I would like to know from you, Minister, is: how are we going to be in a situation where public money—£4.25 million of public money—is not going to be wasted again? I've talked to land agents locally who said that the site is worth considerably less now than what the Welsh Government paid for it, so I'd be interested to know your views on that and what you think the site is actually worth now.
You mentioned in your statement as well that you're going to be engaging with partners about the future of the site. I wonder if you can explain to us today who those partners are and what the Welsh Government intend to do with it, because I would like to know, as a local Member. And if you could keep me fully involved in this process going forward, I think it would help with the communication with the local community, it would help with the communication with me, and we can actually find a use for this farm other than what you wanted to use it for.
And I do want to share these points: the Green Man festival is a great asset for Wales; it is a great asset for Wales and it brings a lot of revenue into my constituency, but I would strongly advise the Welsh Government that, before you put your hand in your pocket again to look to secure a long-term site for its future, you should do some basic due diligence, like I mentioned earlier, so that you don't go wasting any more taxpayers' money.
Weinidog, hoffwn ddiolch i chi am y datganiad a wnaethoch y diwrnod o’r blaen, ond mae’n gas gennyf ddweud bod rhywfaint o, 'Fe ddywedais wrthych mai fel hyn y byddai hi’, am hyn oll. Mae llawer o bobl yn fy nghymuned yn ddig iawn am y sefyllfa yr ydym ynddi.
Mae’n rhaid cwestiynu diwydrwydd dyladwy sylfaenol Llywodraeth Cymru ynghylch y pryniant hwn. Byddai ymarfer bwrdd gwaith sylfaenol ar Fferm Gilestone wedi dweud popeth yr oeddent angen ei wybod wrth swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru. Nid wyf yn rhoi'r holl fai arnoch chi, Weinidog, gan eich bod yn cael eich cynghori ar yr hyn sy’n rhaid i chi ei wneud. Ie, chi sy’n gwneud y penderfyniad yn y pen draw, ond byddai archwiliad sylfaenol o’r fferm honno wedi dweud wrthych fod problemau gyda hi o’r dechrau.
Cododd y gymuned bryderon o'r cychwyn am fioamrywiaeth a rhywogaethau ar y safle. Cawsant eu hanwybyddu. Felly, yr hyn yr hoffwn ei wybod gennych, Weinidog, yw: sut rydym yn mynd i fod mewn sefyllfa lle nad yw arian cyhoeddus—£4.25 miliwn o arian cyhoeddus—yn mynd i gael ei wastraffu eto? Rwyf wedi siarad ag asiantau tir lleol sy'n dweud bod y safle’n werth llawer llai bellach na’r hyn a dalodd Llywodraeth Cymru amdano, felly byddai gennyf ddiddordeb yn eich barn ar hynny a beth y credwch yw gwerth y safle bellach.
Fe sonioch chi yn eich datganiad hefyd eich bod yn mynd i ymgysylltu â phartneriaid am ddyfodol y safle. Tybed a allwch egluro i ni heddiw pwy yw’r partneriaid hynny a beth mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn bwriadu ei wneud ag ef, gan yr hoffwn wybod, fel Aelod lleol. Ac os gallwch fy nghadw'n rhan lawn o'r broses wrth symud ymlaen, credaf y byddai'n helpu gyda chyfathrebu â'r gymuned leol, byddai'n helpu gyda chyfathrebu â mi, a gallwn ddod o hyd i ddefnydd i'r fferm sy'n wahanol i'r hyn yr oeddech chi am ei defnyddio ar ei gyfer.
A hoffwn rannu'r pwyntiau hyn: mae gŵyl y Dyn Gwyrdd yn gaffaeliad mawr i Gymru; mae’n ased gwych i Gymru ac mae’n dod â llawer o refeniw i’m hetholaeth, ond buaswn yn cynghori Llywodraeth Cymru yn gryf, cyn ichi roi eich llaw yn eich poced eto i geisio sicrhau safle hirdymor ar gyfer ei dyfodol, y dylech wneud rhywfaint o ddiwydrwydd dyladwy sylfaenol, fel y soniais yn gynharach, fel nad ydych yn gwastraffu mwy o arian trethdalwyr.
There are several points in response. The first is that public money hasn't been wasted. We acquired an asset at slightly under market value. We have a commercial tenancy—a commercial farm business tenancy on the site. So, the site is in use. And, indeed, we are looking at the longer term future for Green Man, which, as I say, is a fantastic cultural and economic asset for mid Wales. We need more businesses like Green Man, not fewer. And I think it is right that the mission of this Government, and indeed the mid Wales growth deal, is to create more economic opportunities by supporting businesses like Green Man to grow.
I take on board the point the Member raised about anger, and that's been one of my real concerns about the whole progress of this issue. Much of that anger has turned to abuse in a generally disgraceful way, and the Member himself has talked about abuse in politics in this Chamber. Some of that anger has enabled abuse with very little to hold it back, apart from members on the community council and some people within this Chamber trying to be on the right side of a robust, but decent debate. It has caused some people to take a pause from their life in public service. And I think the Member should reflect on how he looks to communicate with his own constituents and the way in which he stays on the right side of this. I have seen correspondence from the Member's constituents claiming that I have made statements that I have not, which have come from him. And I've had a conversation with him outside this Chamber. His conduct is a matter for him, but he should understand that I will not forget the way he has conducted himself, and I hope for better from him in the future. [Interruption.]
And when it comes to the suitability of the site, of course, the ospreys were not there in August. There was no issue about a lack of due diligence around the site. People are entitled to disagree, as of course they are, but there was no sight of the ospreys. As I say, it's the first time in more than 200 years that they have nested this far south—that in itself is a success story. And actually, that in itself also is part of the issue about the ospreys being seen as an asset. [Interruption.] The osprey conservation society themselves think that the nesting of the ospreys could increase the value of the land—[Interruption.]
Mae sawl pwynt i'w gwneud mewn ymateb. Y cyntaf yw nad oes arian cyhoeddus wedi'i wastraffu. Fe wnaethom gaffael ased am ychydig yn llai na'i werth ar y farchnad. Mae gennym denantiaeth fasnachol—tenantiaeth fasnachol busnes fferm ar y safle. Felly, mae'r safle'n cael ei defnyddio. Ac yn wir, rydym yn edrych ar y dyfodol mwy hirdymor ar gyfer gŵyl y Dyn Gwyrdd, sydd, fel y dywedaf, yn ased diwylliannol ac economaidd gwych i ganolbarth Cymru. Mae arnom angen mwy o fusnesau fel gŵyl y Dyn Gwyrdd, nid llai. A chredaf ei bod yn iawn mai cenhadaeth y Llywodraeth hon, a bargen twf canolbarth Cymru yn wir, yw creu mwy o gyfleoedd economaidd drwy gefnogi busnesau fel gŵyl y Dyn Gwyrdd i dyfu.
Rwy’n derbyn y pwynt a godwyd gan yr Aelod am ddicter, ac mae hynny wedi bod yn un o’m pryderon gwirioneddol ynghylch holl gynnydd y mater hwn. Mae llawer o’r dicter hwnnw wedi troi'n gamdriniaeth mewn ffordd eithaf gwarthus, ac mae’r Aelod ei hun wedi sôn am gamdriniaeth mewn gwleidyddiaeth yn y Siambr hon. Mae rhywfaint o’r dicter hwnnw wedi galluogi camdriniaeth gydag ychydig iawn i’w ddal yn ôl, ar wahân i aelodau ar y cyngor cymuned a rhai pobl yn y Siambr hon yn ceisio bod ar yr ochr iawn i ddadl gadarn ond gweddus. Mae wedi achosi i rai pobl gymryd saib o'u bywydau mewn gwasanaeth cyhoeddus. Ac rwy'n credu y dylai'r Aelod ystyried sut mae'n dymuno cyfathrebu â'i etholwyr ei hun a'r ffordd y mae'n aros ar yr ochr iawn i hyn. Rwyf wedi gweld gohebiaeth gan etholwyr yr Aelod yn honni fy mod wedi gwneud datganiadau nad wyf wedi’u gwneud, sydd wedi dod ganddo ef. Ac rwyf wedi cael sgwrs gydag ef y tu allan i'r Siambr hon. Mater iddo ef yw ei ymddygiad, ond dylai ddeall na fyddaf yn anghofio'r ffordd y mae wedi ymddwyn, ac rwy'n gobeithio am well ganddo yn y dyfodol. [Torri ar draws.]
Ac ar addasrwydd y safle, wrth gwrs, nid oedd gweilch y pysgod yno ym mis Awst. Nid oedd unrhyw broblem ynghylch diffyg diwydrwydd dyladwy mewn perthynas â'r safle. Mae gan bobl hawl i anghytuno, fel y gwnânt wrth gwrs, ond nid oedd unrhyw arwydd o weilch y pysgod yno. Fel y dywedaf, dyma’r tro cyntaf ers mwy na 200 mlynedd iddynt nythu mor bell â hyn i’r de—mae hynny ynddo’i hun yn llwyddiant. Ac mewn gwirionedd, mae hynny ynddo'i hun hefyd yn rhan o'r broblem ynghylch ystyried gweilch y pysgod yn ased. [Torri ar draws.] Mae'r gymdeithas cadwraeth gweilch y pysgod eu hunain yn meddwl y gallai'r ffaith bod gweilch y pysgod yn nythu yno gynyddu gwerth y tir—[Torri ar draws.]
I want to hear what the Minister has to say on this. Minister.
Hoffwn glywed yr hyn sydd gan y Gweinidog i’w ddweud ar hyn. Weinidog.
Thank you. With the potential for eco-tourism and conservation being a potential advantage, in addition to the farm business tenancy. So, we will carry on working with Talybont-on-Usk Community Council, with Powys County Council, who are wholly supportive of the objects of Green Man and want to see them carry on within Powys and expand within Powys. And I will deal with all Members, including the constituency Member, in a manner that is full of respect, and yet at the same time not being afraid to be robust where there is disagreement or conduct that I do not think should be allowed to pass without comment.
Diolch. Gyda'r potensial ar gyfer ecodwristiaeth a chadwraeth yn fantais bosibl, yn ogystal â'r denantiaeth busnes fferm. Felly, byddwn yn parhau i weithio gyda Chyngor Cymuned Tal-y-bont ar Wysg, gyda Chyngor Sir Powys, sy'n gwbl gefnogol i amcanion gŵyl y Dyn Gwyrdd ac sydd am eu gweld yn parhau ym Mhowys ac yn ehangu ym Mhowys. A byddaf yn trin yr holl Aelodau, gan gynnwys yr Aelod etholaeth, â pharch llawn, ac eto, ar yr un pryd, heb ofni bod yn gadarn lle ceir anghytundeb neu ymddygiad nad wyf yn credu y dylid ei ganiatáu'n ddiwrthwynebiad.
Can I just put on the record that I also welcome the historic discovery of the ospreys, which is something that is exciting and something to be welcomed? However, there's no hiding the fact that significant questions continue to be asked about the purchase of Gilestone Farm by Welsh Government. And long before any ospreys landed, this farm was mired in controversy.
To say it had a troubled history is an understatement. Indeed, as James Evans has already alluded to, any simple Google search on this farm would have shown that, in the last 15 years before its purchase by Welsh Government, it had been the subject of major planning rows, judicial reviews, appeal court action, planning inquiries, even leading to national park resignations, and the previous owners forced to leave the farm. Arguably, few farms in Wales have been the subject of such arduous and contentious local and legal disputes. Were I to buy a farm in rural Wales, given the chequered history of this farm, that would have rung alarm bells in my mind.
So, Minister, I just wanted to ask you one question, in two parts. Given the controversial nature of the history of this farm, what level of due diligence did you carry out before sanctioning the £4.25 million of public money? And was this based on a rigorous business case?
A gaf fi nodi ar y cofnod fy mod innau'n croesawu'r darganfyddiad hanesyddol o weilch y pysgod, sy’n rhywbeth cyffrous ac yn rhywbeth i’w groesawu? Fodd bynnag, nid oes unrhyw amheuaeth fod cwestiynau pwysig yn parhau i gael eu gofyn ynghylch pryniant Fferm Gilestone gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Ac ymhell cyn i unrhyw weilch y pysgod lanio, roedd y fferm hon yn destun dadlau.
Mae dweud bod ganddi hanes cythryblus yn danosodiad. Yn wir, fel y mae James Evans eisoes wedi nodi, byddai unrhyw chwiliad Google syml ar y fferm hon wedi dangos, yn y 15 mlynedd diwethaf cyn iddi gael ei phrynu gan Lywodraeth Cymru, ei bod wedi bod yn destun dadleuon cynllunio, adolygiadau barnwrol, achos yn y llys apêl, ymholiadau cynllunio, gan arwain hyd yn oed at ymddiswyddiadau yn y parc cenedlaethol, a’r perchnogion blaenorol yn cael eu gorfodi i adael y fferm. Gellir dadlau mai ychydig o ffermydd yng Nghymru sydd wedi bod yn destun anghydfodau lleol a chyfreithiol mor ffyrnig a dadleuol. Pe bawn yn prynu fferm yng nghefn gwlad Cymru, o ystyried hanes cymhleth y fferm hon, byddai hynny wedi canu larwm yn fy meddwl i.
Felly, Weinidog, roeddwn am ofyn un cwestiwn i chi, mewn dwy ran. O ystyried natur ddadleuol hanes y fferm hon, pa lefel o ddiwydrwydd dyladwy a gwblhawyd gennych cyn ichi gytuno i wario £4.25 miliwn o arian cyhoeddus? Ac a oedd hyn yn seiliedig ar achos busnes trwyadl?
So, we had an outline business case about the proposals from Green Man. It's in line with the objectives of the mid Wales growth deal. I looked at the opportunities at the end of that year, with the ability to use capital and whether it could further secure the Green Man business and its expansion. Audit Wales have been through this, and there's been no criticism of the propriety of the asset, or indeed about the fact that the Welsh Government had the powers to acquire the property, or indeed when we took on more professional independent advice to guide the purchase process, or indeed the value that went into it.
I'm very keen that we carry on supporting businesses, and that will require the Government to intervene in the market, and it will require the Government to take risk at various points in time. Otherwise, we have a future for mid Wales that I do not think any of us would want to sign up to. We need to use the assets that mid Wales has in a way that is genuinely sustainable, for our environment and for communities, which need work and an opportunity to access work, which is why we'll carry on working with businesses like Green Man for exactly that future.
Felly, cawsom achos busnes amlinellol am y cynigion gan ŵyl y Dyn Gwyrdd. Mae'n unol ag amcanion bargen twf canolbarth Cymru. Edrychais ar y cyfleoedd ar ddiwedd y flwyddyn honno, gyda’r gallu i ddefnyddio cyfalaf ac i weld a allai sicrhau ac ehangu busnes gŵyl y Dyn Gwyrdd ymhellach. Mae Archwilio Cymru wedi bod drwy hyn, ac ni fu unrhyw feirniadaeth o briodoldeb yr ased, nac yn wir o'r ffaith bod gan Lywodraeth Cymru bwerau i gaffael yr eiddo, nac yn wir pan gawsom gyngor annibynnol mwy proffesiynol i arwain y broses brynu, neu'n wir y gwerth a aeth i mewn iddo.
Rwy’n awyddus iawn ein bod yn parhau i gefnogi busnesau, a bydd hynny’n ei gwneud yn ofynnol i’r Llywodraeth ymyrryd yn y farchnad, a bydd yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i’r Llywodraeth gymryd risg ar wahanol adegau. Fel arall, mae gennym ddyfodol ar gyfer y canolbarth nad wyf yn credu y byddai unrhyw un ohonom yn dymuno'i weld. Mae angen inni ddefnyddio’r asedau sydd gan y canolbarth mewn ffordd sy’n wirioneddol gynaliadwy, ar gyfer ein hamgylchedd ac ar gyfer cymunedau, sydd angen gwaith a chyfle i gael mynediad at waith, a dyna pam y byddwn yn parhau i weithio gyda busnesau fel gŵyl y Dyn Gwyrdd er mwyn sicrhau'r union ddyfodol hwnnw.
Diolch i'r Gweinidog. Fe symudwn ni ymlaen nawr i'r cwestiwn nesaf, sydd i'w ateb gan y Cwnsler Cyffredinol a Gweinidog y Cyfansoddiad, ac mae Alun Davies i ofyn y cwestiwn. Alun Davies.
I thank the Minister. We'll move on now to the next topical question, which is to be answered by the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution, and is to be asked by Alun Davies. Alun Davies.
2. A wnaiff y Cwnsler Cyffredinol ddatganiad am y goblygiadau i Gymru o ran y cytundeb i adfer llywodraeth ddatganoledig yng Ngogledd Iwerddon? TQ974
2. Will the Counsel General make a statement on the implications for Wales of the agreement to restore devolved government in Northern Ireland? TQ974
Thank you for the question. Can I say that I'm sure we all welcome any restoration of devolution in Northern Ireland, if all parties agree? But the UK Government has only just provided the details of the agreement. We will need to ensure that the financial, operational and constitutional implications for Wales are properly considered and addressed by the UK Government.
Diolch am eich cwestiwn. A gaf fi ddweud fy mod yn siŵr fod pob un ohonom yn croesawu adfer unrhyw ddatganoli yng Ngogledd Iwerddon, os yw pob plaid yn cytuno? Ond dim ond newydd ddarparu manylion y cytundeb y mae Llywodraeth y DU. Bydd angen inni sicrhau bod y goblygiadau ariannol, gweithredol a chyfansoddiadol i Gymru yn cael eu cydnabod a'u hystyried yn briodol gan Lywodraeth y DU.
I think we will all, in all parts of the Chamber, welcome this week's agreement to restore devolved Government in Northern Ireland. I suspect that many of us will appreciate that the people of Northern Ireland have suffered enough as a consequence of the DUP campaigning against the consequences of a Brexit they themselves had argued for.
I don't expect that the Counsel General has had the opportunity to fully digest the command paper that was published about two hours ago, but in that paper, 'Safeguarding the Union', the UK Government outlines all the different provisions that have now been agreed with the DUP for the restoration of devolved Government. We all knew that Brexit would undermine the integrity and the union of the United Kingdom, and we recognised and welcomed the Windsor agreement, which was an important step in the United Kingdom Government recognising how it had misled the people of Northern Ireland, and had acted with bad faith towards our colleagues in the EU. And the Windsor agreement has enabled the UK Government to move away from the crisis that we've been in for the last number of years.
But there will be some significant consequences for Wales as a consequence of this agreement. We have already heard whispers of the financial arrangements that are being put in place for the new Northern Irish Government. We also know that the United Kingdom Government unilaterally changed the principles of funding under which they take decisions to fund the different parts of the United Kingdom. It was, prior to this change, essential for the United Kingdom Government to publicise and provide transparent rationale for the funding of all devolved administrations. They have recently changed that to enable themselves to make payments in addition to the Barnett formula to individual parts of the United Kingdom. We need to understand what the new needs-based formula is for Northern Ireland, and how it will affect the ongoing funding of Northern Ireland, because there are many of us here who have been arguing for a needs-based formula for the funding of Welsh public services as well. And it is not right that the Welsh public be short-changed again by a United Kingdom Government that doesn't give a damn about the people of this country.
We also need to understand how the divergence, or non-divergence from the EU, in goods and the single market provisions, will have an impact on trade within the Great Britain market, because there will be consequences if there is no divergence from EU rules for Northern Ireland, if we want to ensure streamlined trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, for rules and regulations in Great Britain. We also need to understand the operation of common frameworks from now on, because we have agreed a series of common frameworks with the United Kingdom Government and the Scottish Government. That will also need to be understood.
I don't want to try the patience of the acting Chair any further, so I would ask the Welsh Government, in answering this question, if they could undertake to make a statement, or hold a debate in Government time, when appropriate, so that we can all have an informed discussion and debate and understanding of the consequences for Wales of this agreement.
Credaf y bydd pob un ohonom, ym mhob rhan o’r Siambr, yn croesawu’r cytundeb yr wythnos hon i adfer Llywodraeth ddatganoledig yng Ngogledd Iwerddon. Rwy’n tybio y bydd llawer ohonom yn derbyn bod pobl Gogledd Iwerddon wedi dioddef digon o ganlyniad i’r DUP yn ymgyrchu yn erbyn canlyniadau Brexit y gwnaethant hwy eu hunain ddadlau drosto.
Nid wyf yn disgwyl bod y Cwnsler Cyffredinol wedi cael cyfle i dreulio'r papur gorchymyn a gyhoeddwyd oddeutu dwy awr yn ôl, ond yn y papur hwnnw, 'Safeguarding the Union’, mae Llywodraeth y DU yn amlinellu’r holl ddarpariaethau gwahanol sydd bellach wedi'u cytuno â'r DUP ar gyfer adfer y Llywodraeth ddatganoledig. Roedd pob un ohonom yn gwybod y byddai Brexit yn tanseilio uniondeb ac undeb y Deyrnas Unedig, ac roeddem yn cydnabod ac yn croesawu cytundeb Windsor, a oedd yn gam pwysig i Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig gydnabod ei bod wedi camarwain pobl Gogledd Iwerddon, ac wedi gweithredu'n anonest tuag at ein swyddogion cyfatebol yn yr UE. Ac mae cytundeb Windsor wedi galluogi Llywodraeth y DU i symud ymlaen o'r argyfwng y buom ynddo dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf.
Ond bydd rhywfaint o ganlyniadau sylweddol i Gymru o ganlyniad i'r cytundeb hwn. Rydym eisoes wedi clywed sibrydion am y trefniadau ariannol sy’n cael eu rhoi ar waith ar gyfer Llywodraeth newydd Gogledd Iwerddon. Gwyddom hefyd fod Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig wedi newid yn unochrog yr egwyddorion ariannu y maent yn gwneud penderfyniadau oddi tanynt i ariannu gwahanol rannau’r Deyrnas Unedig. Cyn y newid hwn, roedd yn hanfodol i Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig gyhoeddi a darparu rhesymeg dryloyw ar gyfer ariannu’r holl weinyddiaethau datganoledig. Maent wedi newid hynny’n ddiweddar er mwyn galluogi eu hunain i wneud taliadau yn ychwanegol at fformiwla Barnett i rannau unigol o’r Deyrnas Unedig. Mae angen inni ddeall beth yw’r fformiwla newydd sy’n seiliedig ar anghenion ar gyfer Gogledd Iwerddon, a sut y bydd yn effeithio ar gyllid parhaus Gogledd Iwerddon, gan fod llawer ohonom yma wedi bod yn dadlau dros fformiwla sy'n seiliedig ar anghenion ar gyfer ariannu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus Cymru hefyd. Ac nid yw'n iawn fod y cyhoedd yng Nghymru yn cael cam unwaith eto gan Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig nad yw'n malio dim am bobl y wlad hon.
Mae angen inni ddeall hefyd sut y bydd ymwahanu oddi wrth yr UE neu fel arall, mewn nwyddau a darpariaethau’r farchnad sengl, yn cael effaith ar fasnach yn y farchnad Brydeinig, gan y bydd canlyniadau os na cheir unrhyw ymwahanu oddi wrth reolau’r UE ar gyfer Gogledd Iwerddon, os ydym am sicrhau masnach hwylusach rhwng Prydain a Gogledd Iwerddon, ar gyfer rheolau a rheoliadau ym Mhrydain. Mae angen inni ddeall gweithrediad fframweithiau cyffredin o hyn ymlaen hefyd, gan ein bod wedi cytuno ar gyfres o fframweithiau cyffredin gyda Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig a Llywodraeth yr Alban. Bydd angen deall hynny hefyd.
Nid wyf am drethu amynedd y Cadeirydd dros dro ymhellach, felly hoffwn ofyn i Lywodraeth Cymru, wrth ateb y cwestiwn hwn, ymrwymo i wneud datganiad, neu gynnal dadl yn ystod amser y Llywodraeth, pan fo’n briodol, fel y gall pob un ohonom gael trafodaeth wybodus a dadl a dealltwriaeth o ganlyniadau’r cytundeb hwn i Gymru.
You're right. It is very disappointing that on something that clearly does have significant constitutional consequences for Wales there has been no engagement with us on that. We clearly have very specific interests in the matters that are being discussed. I listened to the debate on this on the radio this morning, and, of course, the devil is in the detail, and, of course, no-one knew what the detail was actually going to be.
But, clearly, there are significant issues in respect of the internal market. Can I say that, as the Minister for Economy's here, I have no doubt that he'll be paying very close attention to this? He will, no doubt, want to look at the implications that has, the implication it has for ports, the implications it has for the economy and internal market and so on.
But, in terms of what I can say on the constitutional situation, well, of course, the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 is something that undermines the common frameworks and the arrangements that are in place. It is clearly very important constitutionally—certainly, for inter-governmental relations—that there may well be elected representatives again in Northern Ireland that are participating in that inter-governmental structure. I notice, also, that one of the proposals is the creation of a UK east-west council, but I see it's described in terms of Northern Ireland and Great Britain. I wonder where the Welsh voice will be in that, because, clearly, that would be a matter that is of some considerable importance to us.
I think there are clearly going to be financial issues that are important. The Barnett formula is part of our constitutional make-up. I'm very pleased to see the talk about the establishment of a needs-based formula. How long have we been arguing for a needs-based formula for Wales? So, all I should really say, I think, at this stage, on those points that you have specifically raised, is that it is of important consequence to Wales, it is important for the constitutional relationship, the economic relationship. The devil will be in the detail and there will be a need to look very, very carefully at all the issues that you have quite rightly raised today.
Rydych yn llygad eich lle. Ar rywbeth y mae'n amlwg fod ganddo ganlyniadau cyfansoddiadol sylweddol i Gymru, mae'n siomedig iawn na fu unrhyw ymgysylltu â ni ar hynny. Mae’n amlwg fod gennym ddiddordebau penodol iawn yn y materion sy’n cael eu trafod. Gwrandewais ar y ddadl ar hyn ar y radio y bore yma, ac wrth gwrs, y manylion sy'n bwysig, ac nid oedd unrhyw un yn gwybod beth fyddai'r manylion mewn gwirionedd.
Ond yn amlwg, mae materion sylweddol yn codi ynghylch y farchnad fewnol. A gaf i ddweud, gan fod Gweinidog yr Economi yma, nad oes gennyf unrhyw amheuaeth y bydd yn rhoi sylw manwl iawn i hyn? Heb os, fe fydd yn awyddus i edrych ar y goblygiadau sydd gan hyn, goblygiadau hyn i borthladdoedd, goblygiadau hyn i'r economi a’r farchnad fewnol ac yn y blaen.
Ond o ran yr hyn y gallaf ei ddweud ar y sefyllfa gyfansoddiadol, wel, wrth gwrs, mae Deddf Marchnad Fewnol y Deyrnas Unedig 2020 yn rhywbeth sy’n tanseilio’r fframweithiau cyffredin a’r trefniadau sydd ar waith. Mae'n amlwg yn bwysig iawn o safbwynt cyfansoddiadol—yn sicr, ar gyfer cysylltiadau rhynglywodraethol—ei bod yn bosibl iawn y bydd cynrychiolwyr etholedig yng Ngogledd Iwerddon yn cymryd rhan unwaith eto yn y strwythur rhynglywodraethol hwnnw. Nodaf hefyd mai un o’r cynigion yw creu cyngor dwyrain-gorllewin y DU, ond gwelaf ei fod yn cael ei ddisgrifio yn nhermau Gogledd Iwerddon a Phrydain. Tybed ble fydd llais Cymru yn hynny, oherwydd yn amlwg, byddai hwnnw’n fater o gryn bwysigrwydd i ni.
Yn amlwg, rwy'n credu y bydd yna faterion ariannol pwysig yn codi. Mae fformiwla Barnett yn rhan o’n strwythur cyfansoddiadol. Rwy'n falch iawn o weld y sôn am sefydlu fformiwla sy'n seiliedig ar anghenion. Ers pryd y buom yn dadlau dros fformiwla sy’n seiliedig ar anghenion i Gymru? Felly, credaf mai'r cyfan y dylwn ei ddweud ar hyn o bryd, ar y pwyntiau penodol a godwyd gennych, yw bod hyn o bwys i Gymru, ei fod o bwys i’r berthynas gyfansoddiadol, y berthynas economaidd. Bydd y manylion yn bwysig iawn, a bydd angen edrych yn ofalus tu hwnt ar yr holl faterion a godwyd gennych, yn gwbl briodol, heddiw.
I think it is important that this question has been tabled today. But, I have to say, I'm disappointed by the tone of both the Counsel General and, indeed, the Member for Blaenau Gwent in referring to it. This is a good day; it's a good day for devolution, particularly for people in Northern Ireland, who have been crying out for the restoration of the devolved Government and, indeed, Stormont. I think we need to take our hats off, frankly, to Sir Jeffrey Donaldson for coming up with an agreement, against the will of many people in his own party and in the unionist community, and taking that brave and courageous decision in order to get this deal done. And, of course, we should pay tribute as well to Rishi Sunak for the work that he has personally invested in getting this deal arranged. We know that there was a huge leap forward with the Windsor framework. We know that the EU backs this deal as well.
I've taken a look at the command paper. Like you, Minister, I haven't had time to digest it in detail, but it is very clear that, within these new arrangements, Wales will have a voice. You mentioned, Counsel General, the east-west council. It talks about that being made up of representatives from all of the constituent parts and Governments of the UK. That is right and proper, and I hope that Wales will play its full part. The other important aspect of its work will be Intertrade UK, the new body that will be set up in order to protect our UK internal market. And we mustn't forget that there were never any complaints in this Chamber about the EU single market and us having to apply certain rules to our goods and services in order that they could get into the EU single market. So, I don't see why there's such a huge anti-internal market debate going on in here today. I appreciate that there will be implications for our ports, I appreciate there will be implications for trade, and that's why it is important that an east-west council is established with a Welsh voice in it, and that the Intertrade UK body also has key Welsh businesses participating in it.
There's one thing that it doesn't mention in the command paper, and I do think that this is a deficiency in it, which I hope the Counsel General would be able to take up with the UK Government. I think there's a need for an east-west assembly to hold that east-west council to account. In the same way that we have this apparatus with the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, which does the work of holding the British-Irish Council to account, we need a similar organisation and structure to do that work as well. So, can I ask you, Counsel General, what will you do to make sure that that is a feature of the new working arrangements, so that we can really support the work that has been done to bring this new development to the table today, which, as I say, is good news, especially for Northern Ireland, but also for the union of the United Kingdom?
Credaf ei bod yn bwysig fod y cwestiwn hwn wedi’i gyflwyno heddiw, ond mae'n rhaid imi ddweud fy mod wedi fy siomi gan iaith y Cwnsler Cyffredinol, ac yn wir, yr Aelod dros Flaenau Gwent wrth gyfeirio ato. Mae hwn yn ddiwrnod da; mae’n ddiwrnod da i ddatganoli, yn enwedig i bobl yng Ngogledd Iwerddon, sydd wedi bod yn crefu am adfer y Llywodraeth ddatganoledig, a Stormont yn wir. Credaf fod angen inni ganmol Syr Jeffrey Donaldson am lunio cytundeb, yn groes i ewyllys llawer o bobl yn ei blaid ei hun ac yn y gymuned unoliaethol, a gwneud y penderfyniad dewr a beiddgar hwnnw er mwyn cael y cytundeb hwn. Ac wrth gwrs, dylem dalu teyrnged hefyd i Rishi Sunak am y gwaith y mae ef yn bersonol wedi'i wneud er mwyn cael y cytundeb wedi'i drefnu. Gwyddom fod fframwaith Windsor wedi arwain at naid enfawr ymlaen. Gwyddom fod yr UE yn cefnogi’r cytundeb hwn hefyd.
Rwyf wedi edrych ar y papur gorchymyn. Fel chithau, Weinidog, nid wyf wedi cael amser i’w ystyried yn fanwl, ond mae’n amlwg iawn, yn y trefniadau newydd hyn, y bydd gan Gymru lais. Fe sonioch chi, Gwnsler Cyffredinol, am y cyngor dwyrain-gorllewin. Mae’n nodi y byddai hwnnw'n cynnwys cynrychiolwyr o bob un o rannau cyfansoddol a Llywodraethau’r DU. Mae hynny’n iawn ac yn briodol, ac rwy'n gobeithio y bydd Cymru’n chwarae ei rhan lawn. Yr agwedd bwysig arall ar ei waith fydd Intertrade UK, y corff newydd a fydd yn cael ei sefydlu er mwyn diogelu ein marchnad fewnol yn y DU. Ac mae'n rhaid inni beidio ag anghofio na fu erioed unrhyw gwynion yn y Siambr hon am farchnad sengl yr UE, a gorfod rhoi rheolau penodol ar waith ar gyfer ein nwyddau a’n gwasanaethau er mwyn iddynt allu mynd i mewn i farchnad sengl yr UE. Felly, nid wyf yn gweld pam fod dadl mor enfawr yn erbyn y farchnad fewnol yn mynd rhagddi yma heddiw. Rwy’n sylweddoli y bydd goblygiadau i’n porthladdoedd, rwy’n sylweddoli y bydd goblygiadau i fasnach, a dyna pam ei bod yn bwysig sefydlu cyngor dwyrain-gorllewin lle mae llais gan Gymru, a bod busnesau Cymreig allweddol yn rhan o gorff Intertrade UK.
Mae un peth nad oes sôn amdano yn y papur gorchymyn, a chredaf fod hwn yn ddiffyg ynddo y gobeithiaf y gallai'r Cwnsler Cyffredinol ei godi gyda Llywodraeth y DU. Credaf fod angen cynulliad dwyrain-gorllewin i ddwyn y cyngor dwyrain-gorllewin hwnnw i gyfrif. Yn yr un modd ag y mae gennym y cyfarpar hwn gyda'r Cynulliad Seneddol Prydeinig-Gwyddelig, sy'n gwneud y gwaith o ddwyn y Cyngor Prydeinig-Gwyddelig i gyfrif, mae arnom angen sefydliad a strwythur tebyg i wneud y gwaith hwnnw hefyd. Felly, a gaf i ofyn i chi, Gwnsler Cyffredinol, beth fyddwch chi'n ei wneud i sicrhau bod hynny'n nodwedd o'r trefniadau gweithio newydd, fel y gallwn roi cefnogaeth wirioneddol i'r gwaith a wnaed i ddod â'r datblygiad newydd hwn at y bwrdd heddiw, sydd, fel y dywedaf, yn newyddion da, yn enwedig i Ogledd Iwerddon, ond hefyd i undeb y Deyrnas Unedig?
Thank you for those comments. I'm sorry if it came over as though I was being a bit dour on it. I think it's always difficult when a very important step takes place that clearly has implications and there hasn't been that engagement, and some engagement that there clearly could have been. But you're right; it is a very good day.
I remember visiting Northern Ireland on a number of occasions in the 1970s, and, again, more recently. The transition and the importance of getting those democratic institutions back in place is important. It's important to the whole of the UK; it’s important to all the different peoples and nations of the UK. We notice the absence of being able to participate in the inter-governmental relations that we have, and, indeed, the conclusion to some of the issues with regard to the common frameworks.
You raised the point, exactly right, in terms of a Welsh voice, and of course, we have to be clear what a Welsh voice must be—a Welsh voice that is clearly related to those areas that are devolved, so it must have a proper respectful constitutional structure to that. But these are all matters that clearly need to be considered very, very carefully. I’ve started looking at the paper that came through literally two hours ago. It certainly has a lot of framework objectives within it, so, as I say, it is going to be in the precise details of that.
I do look forward very much, for example, to the next Inter-Ministerial Group for Justice that we will have Northern Ireland. We have, of course, the Northern Ireland legal representatives there, but they can only participate in actually indicating facts and consequences, not able in terms of the policies, the reform policies, and common arrangements and so on.
You raise an interesting point in terms of the issue of an east-west assembly, and I’m sure those are issues the Minister for Economy, and I’m sure other Ministers, will be looking into very closely and considering all the issues that are being raised today.
Diolch am y sylwadau hynny. Mae'n ddrwg gennyf os oeddwn yn swnio fel pe bawn braidd yn galed arno. Credaf ei bod bob amser yn anodd pan fydd cam pwysig iawn yn digwydd, ac yn amlwg, fod iddo oblygiadau, ac na chafwyd yr ymgysylltu hwnnw, ac ymgysylltu a allai fod wedi digwydd, yn amlwg. Ond rydych yn llygad eich lle; mae'n ddiwrnod da iawn.
Rwy’n cofio ymweld â Gogledd Iwerddon ar sawl achlysur yn y 1970au, ac eto, yn fwy diweddar. Mae'r pontio a phwysigrwydd cael y sefydliadau democrataidd hynny yn ôl ar waith yn bwysig. Mae'n bwysig i'r DU gyfan; mae'n bwysig i holl wahanol bobloedd a chenhedloedd y DU. Rydym yn sylwi ar y diffyg gallu i gymryd rhan yn y cysylltiadau rhynglywodraethol sydd gennym, ac yn wir, cwblhad rhai o’r materion sy’n ymwneud â’r fframweithiau cyffredin.
Fe godoch chi'r pwynt, yn gywir ddigon, ynglŷn â llais Cymru, ac wrth gwrs, mae'n rhaid inni fod yn glir ynghylch beth ddylai llais Cymru fod—llais Cymru sy'n amlwg yn gysylltiedig â'r meysydd sydd wedi'u datganoli, felly mae'n rhaid cael strwythur cyfansoddiadol parchus a phriodol i hynny. Ond mae'r rhain oll yn faterion y mae'n amlwg fod angen eu hystyried yn ofalus tu hwnt. Rwyf wedi dechrau edrych ar y papur a gyhoeddwyd ddwy awr yn ôl yn llythrennol. Yn sicr, mae'n cynnwys llawer o amcanion fframwaith, felly, fel y dywedaf, bydd yn ymwneud ag union fanylion hynny.
Edrychaf ymlaen yn fawr, er enghraifft, at bresenoldeb Gogledd Iwerddon yn y Grŵp Rhyngweinidogol nesaf dros Gyfiawnder. Mae gennym gynrychiolwyr cyfreithiol Gogledd Iwerddon yno wrth gwrs, ond nodi ffeithiau a chanlyniadau yw'r unig ffordd y gallant gymryd rhan mewn gwirionedd, gan na allant wneud unrhyw beth o ran y polisïau, y polisïau diwygio, a threfniadau cyffredin ac yn y blaen.
Rydych yn codi pwynt diddorol ynghylch cynulliad dwyrain-gorllewin, ac rwy’n siŵr fod y rheini’n faterion y bydd Gweinidog yr Economi, a Gweinidogion eraill, yn ymchwilio’n fanwl iawn iddynt, ac y byddant yn ystyried yr holl faterion sy'n cael eu codi heddiw.
I’m grateful to the Member for Blaenau Gwent for tabling this topical question today, as we did; it’s important that we have an opportunity to discuss this. Can I start by saying that I also welcome on behalf of Plaid Cymru the news that the Democratic Unionist Party did agree to a deal to restore power sharing in Northern Ireland? I would say, though, that its spurning of dual access to both the EU and UK markets has been a little hard to stomach over recent months, given that that’s the kind of position that we would give our right arm for here in Wales.
I do, nonetheless, though, of course, look forward to seeing the appointment of a new Northern Ireland Executive in due course, and I should add also that the imminent appointment of a Sinn Féin First Minister does mark an era-defining shift in the politics of these islands. The restoration of devolution in Northern Ireland is a moment to be celebrated, and I wish our friend Michelle O’Neill all the very best in her role.
But the terms of the deal by which the restoration has been secured do raise questions for us in Wales, and while we will need to scrutinise the deal further, there are some immediate questions that I do wish to put to the Minister this afternoon. Do we have any steer at this point in time on what the terms of the deal might actually mean in practice for the operation of the Windsor framework, and what will be the implications on key trade regulations and goods checks, for which the Welsh Government, of course, has responsibility?
The Minister has made it clear that he agrees with me that, given the possible impact on areas of devolved competence, the Welsh Government should really have had greater inputs around negotiating this deal, around engagement with the deal. I wonder if there are ideas on how we move forward from this to make sure that lessons are learnt from that.
And finally, does the Minister agree that the £3 billion financial package that underpins the deal clearly appears to offer Northern Ireland a more preferential funding settlement than we have here in Wales? When will we know what consequentials this package will have for Wales, and what is the Welsh Government doing in practical terms to try to secure that?
Rwy’n ddiolchgar i’r Aelod dros Flaenau Gwent am gyflwyno’r cwestiwn amserol hwn heddiw, fel y gwnaethom ninnau; mae’n bwysig inni gael cyfle i drafod hyn. A gaf i ddechrau drwy ddweud fy mod innau hefyd ar ran Plaid Cymru yn croesawu'r newyddion fod Plaid yr Unoliaethwyr Democrataidd wedi cytuno i gytundeb i adfer rhannu grym yng Ngogledd Iwerddon? Hoffwn ddweud, serch hynny, ei bod wedi bod braidd yn anodd dygymod dros y misoedd diwethaf â'r ffaith iddynt wrthod mynediad deuol at farchnadoedd yr UE a’r DU, o ystyried mai dyna’r math o sefyllfa y byddem yn rhoi ein braich dde i fod ynddi yma yng Nghymru.
Serch hynny, edrychaf ymlaen, wrth gwrs, at weld Gweithrediaeth Gogledd Iwerddon newydd yn cael ei phenodi maes o law, a dylwn ychwanegu hefyd fod penodi Prif Weinidog o Sinn Féin yn cynrychioli newid sylweddol yng ngwleidyddiaeth yr ynysoedd hyn. Mae adfer datganoli yng Ngogledd Iwerddon yn achlysur i’w ddathlu, ac rwy'n dymuno'r gorau i’n cyfaill Michelle O’Neill yn ei swydd.
Ond mae telerau’r cytundeb a arweiniodd at adfer yn codi cwestiynau i ni yng Nghymru, a thra bo angen inni graffu ymhellach ar y cytundeb, mae rhai cwestiynau uniongyrchol yr hoffwn eu gofyn i’r Gweinidog y prynhawn yma. A oes gennym unrhyw syniad ar hyn o bryd ynglŷn â beth y gallai telerau’r cytundeb ei olygu'n ymarferol i weithrediad fframwaith Windsor, a beth fydd y goblygiadau ar gyfer rheoliadau masnach allweddol a gwiriadau nwyddau, y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn gyfrifol amdanynt wrth gwrs?
Mae’r Gweinidog wedi nodi'n glir ei fod yn cytuno â mi, o ystyried yr effaith bosibl ar feysydd lle mae cymhwysedd wedi'i ddatganoli, y dylai Llywodraeth Cymru fod wedi cael mwy o fewnbwn gyda negodi’r cytundeb hwn, gydag ymgysylltu â’r cytundeb. Tybed a oes syniadau ar sut y symudwn ymlaen o hyn er mwyn sicrhau bod gwersi’n cael eu dysgu o hynny.
Ac yn olaf, a yw'r Gweinidog yn cytuno ei bod yn amlwg fod y pecyn ariannol o £3 biliwn sy'n sail i'r cytundeb yn cynnig setliad ariannu mwy ffafriol i Ogledd Iwerddon nag sydd gennym yma yng Nghymru? Pryd y cawn wybod pa gyllid canlyniadol a ddaw i Gymru yn sgil y pecyn hwn, a beth mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud yn ymarferol i geisio sicrhau hynny?
Thank you for those points. I suppose the reality is that we will know more about those financial consequences when we know more about the detail. I know there is already some work that has been going on. It’s very clear that some of that sum that is made up relates to past pay deals, past consequentials that have already been received around the UK, but were unable to be implemented within Northern Ireland. So, it’s not clear whether all that's really happening is the backlog of all those is being accumulated together in order to make up for the past couple of years.
On the internal market Act, of course, we want to know how that works. In actual fact, I think we want to see it abolished, and to return back to the common frameworks that have really been pushed to one side as a consequence of that particular Act.
In terms of what the implications are for the Windsor agreement—. Well, can I just say firstly that I think you're absolutely right? What Northern Ireland has now managed to negotiate is all the benefits of being in the EU, which we have lost, as well as having any benefits there are in terms of the UK internal market. In fact, it seems to me almost that what has happened is that Brexit has almost been dissolved for the purpose of the Northern Ireland arrangements, and it is obviously very, very good news economically for Northern Ireland on that. There will obviously be considerations that I know other Ministers will be considering in terms of the issues in terms of trade, cross-border arrangements, and so on, and I'm sure there will be statements from the Minister for Economy and, no doubt, from the First Minister in due course around this and the consequences.
Beyond that, I'm afraid there's probably very little more that I can say. As I say, this document here, which we've only just seen, is very much a framework document; the devil will be in the detail. But we do need to consider very carefully what that detail is and its implications for Wales. But just to repeat, perhaps, the starting point, this is a very, very good day and we should all welcome it for Northern Ireland.
Diolch am y pwyntiau hynny. Mae’n debyg mai’r gwir amdani yw y byddwn yn gwybod mwy am y canlyniadau ariannol hynny pan fyddwn yn gwybod mwy am y manylion. Gwn fod rhywfaint o waith eisoes wedi mynd rhagddo. Mae'n amlwg iawn fod rhywfaint o'r swm hwnnw'n ymwneud â dyfarniadau cyflog yn y gorffennol, cyllid canlyniadol a ddarparwyd yn y gorffennol ledled y DU, ond nad oedd modd ei weithredu o fewn Gogledd Iwerddon. Felly, nid yw'n glir ai'r cyfan sy'n digwydd mewn gwirionedd yw bod ôl-groniad yr holl bethau hynny yn cael ei ddarparu gyda'i gilydd er mwyn gwneud iawn am yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf.
Ar Ddeddf y farchnad fewnol wrth gwrs, rydym yn awyddus i wybod sut mae hynny'n gweithio. A dweud y gwir, credaf ein bod am ei gweld yn cael ei dileu, a newid yn ôl i'r fframweithiau cyffredin sydd wedi’u gwthio i'r naill ochr o ganlyniad i’r Ddeddf honno.
O ran beth yw'r goblygiadau i gytundeb Windsor—. Wel, a gaf i ddweud, yn gyntaf, fy mod yn credu eich bod yn llygad eich lle? Yr hyn y mae Gogledd Iwerddon bellach wedi llwyddo i’w negodi yw holl fanteision bod yn yr UE, manteision yr ydym ni wedi’u colli, yn ogystal ag unrhyw fanteision sydd i'w cael mewn perthynas â marchnad fewnol y DU. A dweud y gwir, bron nad ymddengys i mi mai’r hyn sydd wedi digwydd yw bod Brexit wedi’i ddiddymu bron at ddibenion trefniadau Gogledd Iwerddon, ac mae hynny’n amlwg yn newyddion da iawn yn economaidd i Ogledd Iwerddon. Yn amlwg, bydd ystyriaethau y gwn y bydd Gweinidogion eraill yn eu hystyried o ran y materion masnach, trefniadau trawsffiniol, ac yn y blaen, ac rwy’n siŵr y bydd datganiadau gan Weinidog yr Economi, a heb os, gan y Prif Weinidog maes o law ynghylch hyn a’r canlyniadau.
Y tu hwnt i hynny, mae arnaf ofn mai ychydig iawn y gallaf ei ddweud, mae'n debyg. Fel y dywedaf, dogfen fframwaith i raddau helaeth yw'r ddogfen hon, nad ydym ond newydd ei gweld; bydd y manylion yn hollbwysig. Ond mae angen inni ystyried yn ofalus iawn beth yw’r manylion hynny a’u goblygiadau i Gymru. Ond i ailadrodd y man cychwyn efallai, mae hwn yn ddiwrnod da iawn, a dylai pob un ohonom ei groesawu i Ogledd Iwerddon.
Diolch i'r Cwnsler Cyffredinol a Gweinidog y Cyfansoddiad.
I thank the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution.
Fe symudwn ni ymlaen, nawr, at eitem 5, sef datganiadau 90 eiliad. Jayne Bryant.
We'll move on, now, to item 5, which is the 90-second statements. Jayne Bryant.
We're in the middle of Independent Venue Week, and Newport is proud to be home to a thriving independent music scene. A real success story is Le Pub, showing how a co-operative approach can go from strength to strength, and it's an exciting time for the new women-led Corn Exchange venue. Yet too many grass-roots music venues across the UK have closed in recent years. More venues would have been lost without meaningful support and funding from organisations like the Music Venue Trust. Last week, I was glad to be able to host Music Venue Trust's annual report launch, their first ever event here in the Senedd. The report highlights that nearly 1.3 million people attended events at grass-roots music venues in Wales last year, contributing over £24 million to the Welsh economy. Bands, venues, sound engineers, photographers and record labels all rely on grass-roots venues, and our communities will thrive if we recognise their value to society. This week is a reminder that it's not too late to act to make sure our grass-roots music venues not only survive but thrive.
Mae hi'n Wythnos Lleoliadau Annibynnol, ac mae Casnewydd yn falch o fod yn gartref i sîn gerddoriaeth annibynnol ffyniannus. Mae Le Pub yn enghraifft o lwyddiant gan ei fod yn dangos sut y gall ymagwedd gydweithredol fynd o nerth i nerth, ac mae’n amser cyffrous i leoliad newydd y Corn Exchange, a arweinir gan fenywod. Ac eto, mae gormod o leoliadau cerddoriaeth llawr gwlad ledled y DU wedi cau yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf. Byddai mwy o leoliadau wedi cau heb gymorth a chyllid ystyrlon gan sefydliadau fel yr Ymddiriedolaeth Lleoliadau Cerddoriaeth. Yr wythnos diwethaf, roeddwn yn falch o allu cynnal lansiad adroddiad blynyddol yr Ymddiriedolaeth Lleoliadau Cerddoriaeth, eu digwyddiad cyntaf erioed yma yn y Senedd. Mae’r adroddiad yn nodi bod bron i 1.3 miliwn o bobl wedi mynychu digwyddiadau mewn lleoliadau cerddoriaeth llawr gwlad yng Nghymru y llynedd, gan gyfrannu dros £24 miliwn i economi Cymru. Mae bandiau, lleoliadau, peirianwyr sain, ffotograffwyr a labeli recordiau oll yn dibynnu ar leoliadau llawr gwlad, a bydd ein cymunedau yn ffynnu os ydym yn cydnabod eu gwerth i gymdeithas. Mae’r wythnos hon yn ein hatgoffa nad yw'n rhy hwyr i weithredu er mwyn sicrhau bod ein lleoliadau cerddoriaeth llawr gwlad nid yn unig yn goroesi ond yn ffynnu.
Diolch.
I thank the Member.
Fe symudwn ni ymlaen nawr at eitem 6, sef cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 26.17 mewn perthynas â Bil Senedd Cymru (Aelodau ac Etholiadau). Dwi'n galw ar aelod o'r Pwyllgor Busnes i wneud y cynnig. Heledd Fychan.
We'll move on now to item 6, which is a motion under Standing Order 26.17 in relation to the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill. I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion. Heledd Fychan.
Cynnig NDM8466 Elin Jones
Cynnig bod y Senedd, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 26.17(iii), yn cytuno y dylai trafodion Cyfnod 2 Bil Senedd Cymru (Aelodau ac Etholiadau) gael eu hystyried gan Bwyllgor o’r Senedd Gyfan.
Motion NDM8466 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 26.17(iii), agrees that Stage 2 proceedings of the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill be considered by a Committee of the Whole Senedd.
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
Yn ffurfiol.
Formally.
Diolch. Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Nac oes, does dim gwrthwynebiad. Felly, derbynnir y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.
Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.
Derbyniwyd y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.
Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.
Fe symudwn ni ymlaen, felly, at eitem 7, sef cynnig i ddiwygio Rheolau Sefydlog—adolygiad cyfyngedig o weithdrefnau Biliau cydgrynhoi. Dwi unwaith eto yn galw ar aelod o'r Pwyllgor Busnes i wneud y cynnig yn ffurfiol. Heledd Fychan.
We'll move on now to item 7, which is a motion to amend Standing Orders—limited review of consolidation Bill procedures. I once again call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion formally. Heledd Fychan.
Cynnig NDM8472 Elin Jones
Cynnig bod y Senedd, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 33.2:
1. Yn ystyried adroddiad y Pwyllgor Busnes, 'Diwygio Rheolau Sefydlog: Adolygiad cyfyngedig o weithdrefnau Biliau Cydgrynhoi', a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 24 Ionawr 2024.
2. Yn cymeradwyo'r cynnig i ddiwygio Rheol Sefydlog 26C, fel y nodir yn Atodiad A i adroddiad y Pwyllgor Busnes.
Motion NDM8472 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 33.2:
1. Considers the report of the Business Committee, ‘Amending Standing Orders: Limited review of Consolidation Bill procedures’, laid in the Table Office on 24 January 2024.
2. Approves the proposal to amend Standing Order 26C, as set out in Annex A of the Business Committee’s report.
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
Cynnig yn ffurfiol.
I formally move.
Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid diwygio'r Rheolau Sefydlog? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Nac oes. Felly, derbynnir y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.
The proposal is to amend Standing Orders. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.
Derbyniwyd y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.
Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.
Symudwn ni ymlaen at eitem 8 ar ein hagenda, sef dadl ar gynnig deddfwriaethol gan Aelod: Bil i sefydlu goruchwyliaeth strwythuredig o reolwyr y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Dwi'n galw ar Mabon ap Gwynfor i wneud y cynnig.
That takes us on to item 8 on our agenda, which is the debate on a Member's legislative proposal: a Bill to establish structured oversight of NHS managers. I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to move the motion.
Cynnig NDM8434 Mabon ap Gwynfor
Cynnig bod y Senedd:
1. Yn nodi cynnig ar gyfer Bil i sefydlu goruchwyliaeth strwythuredig o reolwyr y GIG, ar ffurf corff rheoleiddio.
2. Yn nodi mai diben y Bil fyddai:
a) sefydlu corff rheoleiddio proffesiynol ar gyfer GIG Cymru i ddiffinio'r safonau proffesiynol a ddisgwylir gan reolwyr GIG Cymru a bod yn lle i droi ar gyfer y rhai sy'n teimlo nad yw'r safonau hynny wedi cael eu bodloni gan unrhyw reolwr unigol GIG Cymru, a byddai ganddo'r pŵer i rybuddio, cosbi neu dynnu unrhyw reolwr GIG Cymru oddi ar ei gofrestr a gynhelir;
b) diffinio beth yw rheolwr GIG Cymru a chynnal cofrestr o reolwyr GIG Cymru; ac
c) ei gwneud yn ofynnol i holl reolwyr y GIG fod wedi'u cofrestru gyda'r corff rheoleiddio proffesiynol.
Motion NDM8434 Mabon ap Gwynfor
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes a proposal for a Bill to establish structured oversight of NHS managers, in the form of a regulatory body.
2. Notes that the purpose of the Bill would be to:
a) establish a professional regulatory body for NHS Wales to define the professional standards expected of NHS Wales managers and be a place of recourse for those who feel that those standards have not been met by any one individual NHS Wales manager, and which would have the power to warn, sanction or strike off any NHS Wales manager from its maintained register;
b) define what an NHS Wales manager is and maintain a register of NHS Wales managers; and
c) require all NHS managers to be registered with the professional regulatory body.
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
Dwi'n cynnig yn ffurfiol. Yr NHS ydy un o lwyddiannau mwyaf y ganrif ddiwethaf o ran gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Mae sicrhau gwasanaethau meddygol am ddim i bawb wedi gwneud ein bywydau ni i gyd yn well ac yn fwy diogel. Wrth reswm, mae'r NHS yn sefydliad anferth ac yn gofyn am weithwyr sydd â phob math o arbenigedd a galluoedd gwahanol. O lanhawyr i feddygon ymgynghorol, a phopeth arall rhwng y ddau, mae yna amrywiaeth eithriadol o bobl yn gweithio yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, ac maent yn cael eu dwyn i gyfrif i'r safonau uchaf, fel y dylen nhw. Fodd bynnag, ni ellir dweud yr un peth am y rheolwyr sy'n gwneud y penderfyniadau sy'n gallu cael effaith fawr ar drefniadau gweithredu'r gwasanaeth hwn sy'n achub bywydau o ddydd i ddydd.
Ers degawdau, rydyn ni wedi gweld ymroddiad gweithwyr gofal iechyd proffesiynol di-ri—meddygon, nyrsys, therapyddion, a llawer iawn o weithwyr eraill—sy'n ymroi'n llwyr i ddiogeli iechyd y cyhoedd. Ac eto, mae eu hymdrechion yn cael eu llesteirio’n aml gan system sydd ddim yn ddigon atebol ar lefel reoli. Mae'n hen bryd inni sicrhau newid dewr ac angenrheidiol, sef sefydlu corff rheoleiddiol i reolwyr yr NHS, yn debyg i'r Cyngor Meddygol Cyffredinol ar gyfer meddygon neu Gyngor y Gweithlu Addysg ar gyfer athrawon.
Mae gwahanol broffesiynau yn gweithredu o fewn fframwaith cyrff rheoleiddio cadarn. Mae'r Awdurdod Rheoleiddio Cyfreithwyr yn sicrhau ymddygiad moesegol a chymhwysedd ymysg cyfreithwyr, gan ddiogeli ymddiriedaeth y cyhoedd. Mae'r Cyngor Meddygol Cyffredinol yn cynnal y safonau ymarfer meddygol uchaf, gan flaenoriaethu diogelwch cleifion a phroffesiynoldeb. Yn yr un modd, mae Cyngor y Gweithlu Addysg yn hyrwyddo addysg o ansawdd, gan hyrwyddo llesiant myfyrwyr ac athrawon. Mae'r cyrff hyn yn gwella safonau proffesiynol, wedi rhoi hyder i'r cyhoedd ac wedi meithrin diwylliant o ymarfer moesegol o fewn eu meysydd perthnasol. Felly, gallwn weld bod yna ddolen hanfodol yn y gadwyn hon o atebolrwydd heb ei reoleiddio o gwbl, sef y rheolwyr sy'n goruchwylio'r gweithwyr proffesiynol hyn ac yn llywio diwylliant ein sefydliadau gofal iechyd.
I formally move the motion. The NHS is one of the great successes of the last century in terms of public services. Ensuring free medical services universally has made all of our lives better and safer. Naturally, the NHS is a huge organisation and requires staff with all sorts of expertise and different skills. From cleaners through to consultant doctors and everything in between, there is a huge variety of people working in our health service, and they are held to the highest standards, as they should be. However, the same cannot be said about the managers who make the decisions that can have a huge impact on the operation of this service that saves lives every day.
For decades, we have seen the commitment of professional healthcare workers—doctors, nurses, therapists and many other staff—who are fully committed to safeguarding public health. However, their efforts are often hampered by a system that isn't accountable enough at a management level. It's about time that we secured the needed change, namely the establishment of a regulatory body for NHS managers, similar to the General Medical Council for doctors or the Education Workforce Council for teachers.
Different professions work within robust regulatory frameworks. The Solicitors Regulation Authority ensures morality and competence among solicitors, gaining the public's trust. The General Medical Council maintains the highest standards of practice, safeguarding patients and professionalism. Likewise, the Education Workforce Council promotes quality education, promoting the well-being of pupils and teachers. These organisations improve professional standards, give the public confidence and have nurtured an ethical standard within the relevant areas. So, we can see that there is a crucial link in this accountability chain that isn't covered, namely managers overseeing these professionals and steering our healthcare organisations.
Consider the case of Betsi Cadwaladr, twice plunged into special measures due to systemic failings, or the tragic events at Cwm Taf, where warnings of inadequate maternity care went unheeded, leading to the avoidable loss of precious lives. These are not isolated incidents, they are stark reminders that our current system, lacking proper oversight of management, allows for a culture of silence and impunity to fester, ultimately compromising the safety and well-being of patients.
Why should teachers, lawyers and doctors be held to rigorous ethical codes and disciplinary processes, while those entrusted with the helm of our healthcare system operate in a regulatory vacuum? The answer is clear: it's simply unacceptable. We need a system that instils confidence in patients and the public, knowing that their concerns will be heard and acted upon. We need a system that ensures accountability and protects the whistleblowers who expose wrongdoing, preventing future tragedies.
This is why I propose the establishment of a dedicated regulatory body for NHS managers akin to the GMC or EWC. This body would not be a punitive arm, but a vital safeguard for patients, staff and the NHS itself. Imagine a framework that sets out clear ethical standards and a robust code of conduct for all NHS managers; establishes an independent, transparent system for handling complaints and investigations; empowers a board with the strength and independence to hold managers accountable for failures; provides fair and just disciplinary processes to ensure appropriate sanctions for misconduct; and promotes a culture of learning and improvement, fostering continuous professional development.
This isn't an attack on individual managers, but a call for stronger, more resilient NHS. By bringing management under the same rigorous standards as other healthcare professionals, we elevate the entire system, we protect patients from harm, empower staff to voice concerns and build a culture of trust and respect.
We need a dedicated independent body with the teeth to hold managers accountable and the sensitivity to foster a culture of improvement. This isn't about creating administrative burdens or stifling innovation, it's about ensuring that every decision, every action prioritises the safety and well-being of patients. It's about building an NHS where staff are empowered to speak up, where concerns are addressed swiftly and effectively, and where failures are met with accountability and learning. It's about creating a legacy of true accountability in the NHS. A legacy worthy of the trust we place in it. A legacy where every life, every story, every whisper of concern is heard and acted upon. A legacy where the health and well-being of our citizens is the paramount concern, not bureaucracy or personal gain.
Can you imagine a surgeon operating without oversight? A nurse dispensing medication unchecked or a therapist offering treatment unscrutinised? These scenarios are unthinkable. In the healthcare realm, rigorous professional regulation safeguards both patients and professionals, yet a crucial link remains missing—NHS managers. The individuals guiding these very professionals and shaping the culture of hospitals and clinics operate largely in a regulatory vacuum.
This discrepancy is stark and problematic. Doctors, nurses and allied health workers are held accountable, rightfully, to the highest standards, ensuring adherence to ethical codes and competencies. This safeguards patients, fosters professional development, and builds public confidence. But NHS managers, wielding immense influence over resource allocation, staffing decisions and service delivery, lack a similar regulatory framework. Now is the time for genuine, robust regulation of NHS managers. Let's show today that we are united in our commitment to patient safety, staff empowerment, and a truly healthy NHS for all, and build a system where every decision, every action, reflects the values of candour, honesty, integrity and, most importantly, the fundamental right to health and dignity. Diolch.
Ystyriwch achos bwrdd Betsi Cadwaladr, sydd wedi bod yn destun mesurau arbennig ddwywaith oherwydd methiannau systemig, neu’r digwyddiadau trasig yng Nghwm Taf, lle na roddwyd sylw i rybuddion am ofal mamolaeth annigonol, gan arwain at farwolaethau y gellid bod wedi’u hosgoi. Nid yw’r rhain yn ddigwyddiadau neilltuol, maent yn ein hatgoffa fod ein system bresennol, heb oruchwyliaeth briodol ar drefniadau rheoli, yn caniatáu i ddiwylliant o dawelwch ac anghosbedigaeth gronni, gan beryglu diogelwch a llesiant cleifion yn y pen draw.
Pam y dylai athrawon, cyfreithwyr a meddygon orfod cydymffurfio â chodau moesegol a phrosesau disgyblu trwyadl, tra bo'r rheini sydd wrth y llyw yn ein system gofal iechyd yn gweithredu mewn gwagle rheoleiddiol? Mae'r ateb yn glir: mae'n annerbyniol. Mae arnom angen system sy’n ennyn hyder cleifion a’r cyhoedd, gan wybod y bydd eu pryderon yn cael eu clywed ac yr eir i'r afael â hwy. Mae arnom angen system sy’n sicrhau atebolrwydd ac sy’n amddiffyn y chwythwyr chwiban sy’n tynnu sylw at gamweddau, gan atal trasiedïau yn y dyfodol.
Dyna pam fy mod yn cynnig sefydlu corff rheoleiddio penodedig tebyg i'r Cyngor Meddygol Cyffredinol neu Gyngor y Gweithlu Addysg ar gyfer rheolwyr y GIG. Ni fyddai’r corff hwn yn fraich gosbol, ond byddai'n amddiffyniad hanfodol i gleifion, staff a’r GIG ei hun. Dychmygwch fframwaith sy'n nodi safonau moesegol clir a chod ymddygiad cadarn ar gyfer holl reolwyr y GIG; sy'n sefydlu system annibynnol, dryloyw ar gyfer ymdrin â chwynion ac ymchwiliadau; sy'n grymuso bwrdd a chanddo gryfder ac annibyniaeth i ddwyn rheolwyr i gyfrif am fethiannau; sy'n darparu prosesau disgyblu teg a chyfiawn er mwyn sicrhau sancsiynau priodol am gamymddwyn; ac sy'n hyrwyddo diwylliant o ddysgu a gwella, gan feithrin datblygiad proffesiynol parhaus.
Nid ymosodiad ar reolwyr unigol mo hwn, ond galwad am GIG cryfach a mwy gwydn. Drwy ddod â rheolwyr o dan yr un safonau trwyadl â gweithwyr gofal iechyd proffesiynol eraill, rydym yn dyrchafu'r system gyfan, yn diogelu cleifion rhag niwed, yn grymuso staff i leisio pryderon ac yn adeiladu diwylliant o hyder a pharch.
Mae arnom angen corff annibynnol ymroddedig sydd â'r dannedd i ddwyn rheolwyr i gyfrif a'r sensitifrwydd i feithrin diwylliant o welliant. Nid yw hyn yn ymwneud â chreu beichiau gweinyddol neu fygu arloesedd, mae'n ymwneud â sicrhau bod pob penderfyniad, pob cam gweithredu yn blaenoriaethu diogelwch a lles cleifion. Mae'n ymwneud ag adeiladu GIG lle mae staff wedi'u grymuso i godi eu llais, lle eir i'r afael â phryderon yn gyflym ac yn effeithiol, a lle mae methiannau'n arwain at atebolrwydd a dysgu. Mae'n ymwneud â chreu gwaddol o atebolrwydd go iawn yn y GIG. Gwaddol sy'n deilwng o'r hyder sydd gennym ynddo. Gwaddol lle mae pob bywyd, pob stori, pob pryder yn cael ei glywed a chamau'n cael eu cymryd i'w unioni. Gwaddol lle mai'r hyn sy'n hollbwysig yw iechyd a lles ein dinasyddion, nid biwrocratiaeth neu fudd personol.
A allwch chi ddychmygu llawfeddyg yn rhoi llawdriniaeth heb oruchwyliaeth? Nyrs yn dosbarthu meddyginiaeth heb ei gwirio neu therapydd yn cynnig triniaeth heb unrhyw graffu? Mae'r senarios hyn y tu hwnt i amgyffred. Ym maes gofal iechyd, mae rheoleiddio proffesiynol trwyadl yn diogelu cleifion a gweithwyr proffesiynol, ac eto, mae dolen hanfodol ar goll o hyd—rheolwyr y GIG. Mae'r unigolion sy'n arwain yr union weithwyr proffesiynol hyn ac sy'n llywio diwylliant ysbytai a chlinigau yn gweithredu mewn gwagle rheoleiddiol i raddau helaeth.
Mae'r anghysondeb hwn yn amlwg ac yn broblemus. Mae meddygon, nyrsys a gweithwyr proffesiynol perthynol i iechyd yn cael eu dwyn i gyfrif, a hynny’n gwbl briodol, yn ôl y safonau uchaf, gan sicrhau y cedwir at godau moesegol a chymwyseddau. Mae hyn yn diogelu cleifion, yn meithrin datblygiad proffesiynol, ac yn adeiladu hyder y cyhoedd. Ond nid oes gan reolwyr y GIG, sydd â dylanwad enfawr dros ddyrannu adnoddau, penderfyniadau staffio a darparu gwasanaethau, fframwaith rheoleiddio tebyg. Nawr yw’r amser i gael trefn reoleiddio deilwng a chadarn i reolwyr y GIG. Gadewch inni ddangos heddiw ein bod yn unedig yn ein hymrwymiad i ddiogelwch cleifion, grymuso staff, a GIG gwirioneddol iach i bawb, ac adeiladu system lle mae pob penderfyniad, pob cam gweithredu, yn adlewyrchu gwerthoedd didwylledd, gonestrwydd, uniondeb, ac yn bwysicaf oll, yr hawl sylfaenol i iechyd ac urddas. Diolch.
I'd like to thank Mabon ap Gwynfor for bringing forward this Member's legislative proposal today. As a lifelong advocate for our beloved NHS in Wales, along with my Welsh Conservative colleagues on these benches, we are a firm believer in the NHS's boundless potential, but the potential thrives when only nurtured by accountability, excellence and a shared commitment to serving the people who depend on it the most. That's why I and my group fully support this proposal, as this was included in our Welsh Conservative manifesto, so it's lovely to see that the Member has been reading our manifesto and actually picking up the best bits from it and wanting to bring it into fruition.
To establish a dedicated regulatory body for NHS managers in Wales—this isn't a mere bureaucratic exercise, it's a transformative step towards a brighter, more accountable future for our healthcare system here in Wales. For too long, whispers of concern have lingered around NHS management, decisions have been made behind closed doors, and frustrations met with silence. Questions about competence sometimes remain unanswered. This isn't a system that inspires confidence, nor does it empower those who have the most at stake: patients, staff and the communities that they serve. We as Welsh Conservatives—and I know the Member does now—believe in a different path, one informed by clear standards, fair accountability, and a renewed trust, a path paved by the establishment of that dedicated regulatory body wielding the power to define and uphold professional excellence, not through nebulous expectations but through a concrete framework outlining what it really, truly means to be an NHS manager here in Wales, someone who champions patient care, fosters collaboration and embraces transparency and openness in the system. We believe it also will provide that platform, as I said earlier, for accountability, not through self-assessments and not through platitudes, but through a fair and independent body empowered to investigate grievances and issue sanctions and ensure that poor performance has no place in our NHS here in Wales.
We can rebuild trust brick by brick, not through blind faith, but through a system that empowers our patients and staff to participate, to have their voices heard, and to know that their concerns matter, and also the concerns of whistleblowers who work within our NHS who want to inform people of poor management practices. An independent body would allow that to happen and give whistleblowers the confidence to come forward and raise those concerns.
This proposal is about building a culture of improvement, a leadership landscape where every decision is actioned and held to the highest standards. But it's about equipping our managers with the framework they need to excel, knowing they have the support and the accountability to lead with confidence in our health boards and in our hospital settings. Some may argue: does this undermine trust in our managers in the NHS? I think absolutely not. It strengthens it. It shows that we have value in their role, that we believe in their potential, and that we are invested in their success. By establishing clear expectations and providing a fair system for feedback and accountability, we empower managers to lead with confidence, knowing they have the support and the framework around them to make those decisions that they need to do.
Hoffwn ddiolch i Mabon ap Gwynfor am gyflwyno'r cynnig deddfwriaethol gan Aelod heddiw. Fel eiriolwr gydol oes ar ran ein hannwyl GIG yng Nghymru, ynghyd â’m cyd-Aelodau o'r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig ar y meinciau hyn, rydym yn credu’n gryf ym mhotensial di-ben-draw'r GIG, ond nid yw'r potensial ond yn ffynnu pan gaiff ei feithrin gan atebolrwydd, rhagoriaeth ac ymrwymiad ar y cyd i wasanaethu’r bobl sy'n dibynnu fwyaf arno. Dyna pam fy mod i a fy ngrŵp yn cefnogi’r cynnig hwn yn llawn, gan fod hyn wedi’i gynnwys ym maniffesto'r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig, felly mae’n hyfryd gweld bod yr Aelod wedi bod yn darllen ein maniffesto ac yn nodi'r darnau gorau ohono ac yn awyddus i sicrhau ei fod yn dwyn ffrwyth.
I sefydlu corff rheoleiddio penodedig ar gyfer rheolwyr y GIG yng Nghymru—nid ymarfer biwrocrataidd mo hwn, mae'n gam trawsnewidiol tuag at ddyfodol mwy disglair, mwy atebol i'n system gofal iechyd yma yng Nghymru. Am lawer gormod o amser, mae pryderon wedi bod ynglŷn â rheolaeth y GIG, mae penderfyniadau wedi'u gwneud y tu ôl i ddrysau caeedig, a rhwystredigaeth pobl heb arwain at ddim heblaw tawelwch. Weithiau, ni chaiff cwestiynau ynghylch cymhwysedd mo'u hateb. Nid yw hon yn system sy’n ennyn hyder, ac nid yw ychwaith yn grymuso’r rheini sydd â'r mwyaf i'w golli: cleifion, staff a’r cymunedau y maent yn eu gwasanaethu. Rydym ni fel Ceidwadwyr Cymreig—a gwn, bellach, fod yr Aelod hefyd—yn credu mewn llwybr gwahanol, un sy’n cael ei lywio gan safonau clir, atebolrwydd teg, a hyder newydd, llwybr a grëwyd drwy sefydlu’r corff rheoleiddio penodedig hwnnw a chanddo rym i ddiffinio a chynnal rhagoriaeth broffesiynol, nid drwy ddisgwyliadau niwlog, ond drwy fframwaith cadarn sy’n amlinellu’r hyn y mae bod yn rheolwr GIG yma yng Nghymru yn ei olygu mewn gwirionedd, rhywun sy’n hyrwyddo gofal cleifion, yn meithrin cydweithio ac yn croesawu tryloywder a didwylledd yn y system. Credwn y bydd hefyd yn darparu llwyfan i atebolrwydd, fel y dywedais yn gynharach, nid drwy hunanasesiadau ac nid drwy ystrydebau, ond drwy gorff teg ac annibynnol wedi’i rymuso i ymchwilio i gwynion a chyhoeddi sancsiynau a sicrhau nad oes lle i berfformiad gwael yn ein GIG yma yng Nghymru.
Gallwn ailadeiladu hyder fricsen wrth fricsen, nid drwy ffydd ddall, ond drwy system sy’n grymuso ein cleifion a’n staff i gymryd rhan, i sicrhau bod eu lleisiau’n cael eu clywed, ac i wybod bod eu pryderon yn bwysig, yn ogystal â phryderon y chwythwyr chwiban sy’n gweithio yn ein GIG ac sydd am hysbysu pobl am arferion rheoli gwael. Byddai corff annibynnol yn caniatáu i hynny ddigwydd ac yn rhoi hyder i chwythwyr chwiban godi’r pryderon hynny.
Mae a wnelo'r cynnig hwn ag adeiladu diwylliant o welliant, tirlun arweinyddol lle caiff pob penderfyniad ei roi ar waith a'i ddal i'r safonau uchaf. Ond mae a wnelo ag arfogi ein rheolwyr â'r fframwaith sydd ei angen arnynt i ragori, gan wybod bod ganddynt y cymorth a'r atebolrwydd i arwain yn hyderus yn ein byrddau iechyd ac yn ein lleoliadau ysbyty. Efallai y bydd rhai'n dadlau: a yw hyn yn tanseilio hyder yn ein rheolwyr yn y GIG? Ni chredaf ei fod yn gwneud hynny o gwbl. Mae'n ei gryfhau. Mae’n dangos ein bod yn gwerthfawrogi eu rôl, ein bod yn credu yn eu potensial, a’n bod yn buddsoddi yn eu llwyddiant. Drwy sefydlu disgwyliadau clir a darparu system deg ar gyfer adborth ac atebolrwydd, rydym yn grymuso rheolwyr i arwain yn hyderus, gan wybod bod ganddynt y cymorth a’r fframwaith o’u cwmpas i wneud y penderfyniadau y mae angen iddynt eu gwneud.
The Member must conclude now.
Mae'n rhaid i’r Aelod ddirwyn i ben nawr.
I'm coming very close. This is not a political issue, I don't think—this is a human one. It's about ensuring that every patient in every corner of Wales receives the best possible care. It's about standing up for our dedicated staff who pour their hearts and souls into the NHS, and they deserve a system that values them in return. I know the Minister may—. I'm coming very close to finishing now, Deputy Presiding—
Rwy'n agos iawn. Nid mater gwleidyddol mo hwn—mae'n fater dynol. Mae a wnelo â sicrhau bod pob claf ym mhob cwr o Gymru yn cael y gofal gorau posibl. Mae a wnelo â sefyll dros ein staff ymroddedig sy'n rhoi eu calonnau a'u heneidiau i'r GIG, ac yn gyfnewid am hynny maent yn haeddu system sy'n eu gwerthfawrogi. Gwn y gall y Gweinidog—. Rwy’n agos iawn at y diwedd, Ddirprwy Lywydd—
You must conclude now.
Mae'n rhaid i chi ddirwyn i ben nawr.
Yes, I will. I know the Minister may worry about costs, but I know my group and I'm sure the Member in charge of this would like to sit down with the Minister to discuss how we can fund this, because I really do believe this can make a clear difference and improve the management levels within our NHS here in Wales.
Iawn. Gwn efallai y bydd y Gweinidog yn poeni am gostau, ond rwy’n adnabod fy ngrŵp, ac rwy’n siŵr yr hoffai’r Aelod sy’n gyfrifol am hyn eistedd gyda’r Gweinidog i drafod sut y gallwn ariannu hyn, gan fy mod yn credu o ddifrif y gall hyn wneud gwahaniaeth clir a gwella’r lefelau rheoli yn ein GIG yma yng Nghymru.
Dwi'n galw ar y Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, Eluned Morgan.
I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services, Eluned Morgan.
Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd dros dro.
Thank you very much, temporary Presiding Officer.
I welcome the opportunity to respond to this debate, and thank Mabon ap Gwynfor for tabling the motion. The overarching objective of professional regulation is to protect the public. It's a statutory system, independent of Government. Any framework that introduces new statutory regulation for NHS workers must first and foremost support and improve public protection. It must command the confidence of anyone raising concerns and, in particular, the public. At the heart of any consideration to regulate a new profession is ensuring that statutory regulation provides the most effective and proportionate means of delivering further public protection. Members will be aware that the regulation of health professionals is reserved to the United Kingdom Government, and the current regulatory system is broadly UK-wide. There are clear benefits to a UK framework, ensuring consistent education and professional standards and enabling the ongoing mobility of the health professional workforce between UK nations.
Now, the terrible events at the Countess of Chester and the conviction of Lucy Letby rightly shone a light on the governance and the safety systems within our NHS organisations, and we're going to consider, very carefully, the recommendations and findings of Lady Justice Thirlwall when these become available.
The regulation of NHS managers is an issue that has been raised and considered very seriously by the Welsh Government previously. We found that there would be significant practical barriers to regulating NHS managers in Wales only, and establishing a system for Wales alone would require a substantial mechanism and the creation of a Welsh regulatory body at significant cost. NHS managers come from a range of different professional backgrounds, and issues such as the balance of responsibility between the employer and any regulator would require careful consideration. Some NHS managers are already subject to professional regulation, through bodies such as the General Medical Council and the Nursing and Midwifery Council. So, any new system would need to take into account the issue of dual regulation and seek to avoid duplication of effort and purpose. An individual suspended or struck off the register of a Wales-only regulatory body for managers may not be prevented from working elsewhere in the United Kingdom. It's the Welsh Government's view that any new regulatory framework for NHS managers would be best taken forward on a four-country basis, consistent with the existing arrangements for doctors, nurses, allied health professions and other healthcare professionals.
Excellent and compassionate leadership, instilling the right culture within NHS Wales, is critical to delivering the best health outcomes for the people of Wales, and it was really good to have a really thorough conversation around this issue with the board of Betsi Cadwaladr this morning. NHS managers and leaders play a vital role in creating the right conditions to enable their organisations to thrive and deliver the most effective services.
Rwy'n croesawu'r cyfle i ymateb i’r ddadl hon, a diolch i Mabon ap Gwynfor am gyflwyno’r cynnig. Amcan trosfwaol rheoleiddio proffesiynol yw diogelu'r cyhoedd. Mae’n system statudol, sy’n annibynnol ar y Llywodraeth. Mae'n rhaid i unrhyw fframwaith sy’n cyflwyno trefniadau rheoleiddio statudol newydd ar gyfer gweithwyr y GIG, yn y lle cyntaf ac yn bennaf oll, gefnogi a gwella diogelwch y cyhoedd. Mae'n rhaid iddo ennyn hyder unrhyw un sy'n mynegi pryderon, a'r cyhoedd yn arbennig. Mae sicrhau bod rheoleiddio statudol yn darparu’r dull mwyaf effeithiol a chymesur o ddiogelu’r cyhoedd ymhellach yn ganolog i unrhyw ystyriaeth i reoleiddio proffesiwn newydd. Bydd yr Aelodau’n ymwybodol fod rheoleiddio gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol yn fater a gedwir yn ôl gan Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig, ac mae’r system reoleiddio bresennol at ei gilydd yn un ar gyfer y DU gyfan. Mae manteision clir i fframwaith ar gyfer y DU, gan ei fod yn sicrhau safonau addysg a phroffesiynol cyson ac yn galluogi symudedd parhaus y gweithlu iechyd proffesiynol rhwng gwledydd y DU.
Nawr, fe wnaeth y digwyddiadau ofnadwy yn ysbyty Iarlles Caer ac euogfarn Lucy Letby daflu goleuni yn gwbl briodol ar lywodraethiant a systemau diogelwch yn ein sefydliadau GIG, ac rydym yn mynd i ystyried argymhellion a chanfyddiadau’r Arglwyddes Ustus Thirlwall yn ofalus iawn pan fyddant ar gael.
Mae rheoleiddio rheolwyr y GIG yn fater sydd eisoes wedi’i godi a’i ystyried yn ddifrifol iawn gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Canfuwyd gennym y byddai rhwystrau ymarferol sylweddol rhag rheoleiddio rheolwyr y GIG yng Nghymru yn unig, ac y byddai sefydlu system ar gyfer Cymru yn unig yn galw am fecanwaith sylweddol a chreu corff rheoleiddio i Gymru ar gost sylweddol. Daw rheolwyr y GIG o amrywiaeth o gefndiroedd proffesiynol gwahanol, a byddai angen ystyried materion megis cydbwysedd cyfrifoldeb rhwng y cyflogwr ac unrhyw reoleiddiwr yn ofalus. Mae rhai o reolwyr y GIG eisoes yn destun rheoleiddio proffesiynol, drwy gyrff fel y Cyngor Meddygol Cyffredinol a'r Cyngor Nyrsio a Bydwreigiaeth. Felly, byddai angen i unrhyw system newydd ystyried mater rheoleiddio deuol a cheisio osgoi dyblygu ymdrech a phwrpas. Mae’n bosibl na fyddai unigolyn sy'n cael eu hatal neu eu tynnu oddi ar gofrestr corff rheoleiddio rheolwyr penodol i Gymru yn cael eu hatal rhag gweithio yn rhywle arall yn y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru o'r farn y byddai'n well bwrw ymlaen ag unrhyw fframwaith rheoleiddio newydd ar gyfer rheolwyr y GIG ar sail y pedair gwlad, yn gyson â'r trefniadau presennol ar gyfer meddygon, nyrsys, proffesiynau perthynol i iechyd a gweithwyr gofal iechyd proffesiynol eraill.
Mae arweinyddiaeth ragorol a thosturiol, sy’n meithrin y diwylliant cywir yn GIG Cymru, yn hollbwysig i sicrhau’r canlyniadau iechyd gorau i bobl Cymru, ac roedd yn dda iawn cael sgwrs wirioneddol drylwyr am y mater hwn gyda bwrdd Betsi Cadwaladr y bore yma. Mae rheolwyr ac arweinwyr y GIG yn chwarae rhan hanfodol yn creu’r amodau cywir i alluogi eu sefydliadau i ffynnu a darparu’r gwasanaethau mwyaf effeithiol.
Yn y gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru, rŷn ni wedi datblygu dull o ddethol a phenodi uwch-arweinwyr sy'n unol ag arferion da. Mae hyn yn sicrhau bod gyda ni brosesau recriwtio agored a thryloyw, a meini prawf dethol cadarn ar gyfer rolau uwch. Rhaid i ymgeiswyr gwblhau gwiriadau cyn-cyflogi yn llwyddiannus ac mae proses ar gyfer rheoli perfformiad ar ôl penodi. Cyfrifoldeb cyflogwyr yw sicrhau bod mesurau cadarn ar waith o ran y broses benodi. Yn ogystal, mae rheolwyr y gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru yn atebol i god ymddygiad sy'n nodi’r safonau craidd mae disgwyl i holl reolwyr y gwasanaeth eu cyrraedd. Rŷn ni'n dal i ganolbwyntio ar ddatblygu diwylliant o arweinyddiaeth ragorol ar draws y gwasanaeth iechyd, a hefyd, fel rhan o strategaeth y gweithlu ar gyfer iechyd a gofal, rŷn ni'n datblygu diwylliant o arweinyddiaeth dosturiol ac yn cefnogi talent a chynllunio ar gyfer olyniaeth. Fis Hydref diwethaf, fe wnaeth Llywodraeth Cymru gyhoeddi fframwaith 'Codi Llais Heb Ofn' ar gyfer y gwasanaeth iechyd.
In the health service in Wales, we have developed a method of selecting and appointing senior leaders in accordance with good practice. This ensures that we have open and transparent recruitment processes, and robust selection criteria for senior roles. Candidates must have to complete checks before appointment successfully, and there is a process for regulating and managing performance after appointment. It is the responsibility of employers to ensure that robust measures are in place in terms of appointment processes. In addition, managers in the NHS in Wales are accountable to a code of conduct that outlines the core standards that all managers in the service are meant to adhere to. We're still focusing on developing a culture of excellent leadership across the health service, and also, as part of the workforce strategy for health and care, we are developing a culture of compassionate leadership and supporting talent and succession planning. Last October, the Welsh Government published a whistleblowing framework for the health service.
I'm sure Members will be very pleased to hear that that framework about raising your voice set out very clearly the role and the system for whistleblowers in the NHS.
Rwy’n siŵr y bydd yr Aelodau’n falch iawn o glywed bod y fframwaith hwnnw ynglŷn â chodi eich llais yn nodi’n glir iawn beth yw'r rôl a’r system ar gyfer chwythwyr chwiban yn y GIG.
Mae hwn yn nodi cyfrifoldebau timau gweithredol ac uwch-arweinwyr, gan fynd ati ymhellach i feithrin diwylliant lle mae codi llais yn cael ei gefnogi mewn amgylchedd diogel. Fe fyddai angen ystyried ac adolygu yn ofalus unrhyw gynigion deddfwriaethol ar gyfer Bil gan y Senedd ar reoleiddio rheolwyr yn y gwasanaeth iechyd. Fe fyddai angen inni fod yn glir, o ran cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol y Senedd, nad yw hyn yn dod o dan y mater o reoleiddio gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol, sydd wedi'i gadw yn ôl. Fel sy'n arferol gyda chynnig deddfwriaethol gan Aelod, bydd y Llywodraeth yn ymatal yn y bleidlais ar y cynnig heddiw. Diolch.
This outlines the responsibilities of executive teams and senior leaders, further developing a culture where raising one's voice is supported in a safe environment. We will need to consider and review carefully any legislative proposals for a Bill of the Senedd on regulating managers within the NHS. We will have to be clear, in terms of the legislative competence of the Senedd, that this does not come under the matter of regulating professional healthcare workers, which has been reserved. As usual with a Member's legislative proposal, the Government will abstain in the vote on the proposal today. Thank you.
Dwi'n galw nawr ar Mabon ap Gwynfor i ymateb i'r ddadl.
I now call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to reply to the debate.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd dros dro, a diolch yn fawr iawn i bawb sydd wedi cymryd rhan yn y drafodaeth yma. Mae'n werth nodi, mae'n siŵr, cyfraniad gwerthfawr Helen Mary Jones, cyn Aelod o'r Senedd yma. Bydd nifer ohonoch chi yn ymwybodol o'r gwaith ddaru hi ei wneud ar y pwnc yma rhai blynyddoedd yn ôl. Dwi hefyd yn ddiolchgar iawn i James Evans am ei gyfraniad ar ran y Ceidwadwyr.
Thank you very much, acting Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to everyone who has participated in this debate. It's worth noting the valuable contribution of Helen Mary Jones, a former Member of this Senedd. Many of you will be aware of the work that she did on this issue some years ago. I'm also very grateful to James Evans for his contribution on behalf of the Conservatives.
You're quite right that it is something that you've been promoting, but it's something that a number of people have been promoting. I know the British Medical Association are in support of this motion as well. It has cross-party support, which is good to see and understand.
Now, the Minister did refer to that professional regulation is there in order to protect the public; that is exactly what we're looking to establish here. I understand that the Minister does have concerns around that it might be reserved to the UK Government, but there might be opportunities in Wales, albeit difficult, to set up a regulatory body. I'm ever the optimist, therefore, there's hope; there's no reason why we can't do this, so I would urge people to consider that, that it is not impossible, it is something that we could look at. There is an issue around funding; it's not going to happen overnight. So, let's look at the principle of establishing this initially, and Members here should consider supporting this in principle, if nothing else.
Finally, I'd like to just share with you a quote from Dr Bill Kirkup. Many of you will be aware of Dr Bill Kirkup. He said in a programme on Monday night, in Panorama, he said:
'There is a widespread culture in the NHS that if you're being criticised then the right thing to do is circle your wagons, manage your reputation.
'The first stage of that is usually to do with denial and deflection, and it's masking the problems.'
That's sadly true for too many people, and we've heard recently about issues in Abertawe Swansea Bay Health Board around maternity units there as well, with the Channon family saying that they were concerned that there was a cover-up. So, in order to avoid that, in order to strengthen and give managers the support that they need, that's why we need to see a regulatory body set up here in Wales, so that we can see an improvement not just in culture, but in raising the standards and fostering trust amongst the patients. So, I would ask everybody to consider supporting this motion today. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Rydych yn llygad eich lle ei fod yn rhywbeth y buoch yn ei hyrwyddo, ond mae'n rhywbeth y mae nifer o bobl wedi bod yn ei hyrwyddo. Gwn fod Cymdeithas Feddygol Prydain yn cefnogi’r cynnig hwn hefyd. Mae ganddo gefnogaeth drawsbleidiol, sy’n beth da i’w weld a’i ddeall.
Nawr, cyfeiriodd y Gweinidog at y ffaith bod y trefniadau rheoleiddio proffesiynol ar waith er mwyn diogelu'r cyhoedd; dyna'n union y bwriadwn ei sefydlu yma. Deallaf fod gan y Gweinidog bryderon ynghylch y ffaith ei fod yn fater a gedwir yn ôl gan Lywodraeth y DU, ond efallai y bydd cyfleoedd yng Nghymru, er ei bod yn anodd, i sefydlu corff rheoleiddio. Rwy'n optimist, felly mae gobaith; nid oes unrhyw reswm pam na allwn wneud hyn, felly buaswn yn annog pobl i ystyried hynny, nad yw'n amhosibl, ei fod yn rhywbeth y gallem ei ystyried. Mae problem mewn perthynas â chyllid; nid yw'n mynd i ddigwydd dros nos. Felly, gadewch inni edrych ar egwyddor sefydlu hyn i ddechrau, a dylai'r Aelodau yma ystyried cefnogi hyn mewn egwyddor, o leiaf.
Yn olaf, hoffwn rannu dyfyniad gan Dr Bill Kirkup. Bydd llawer ohonoch yn gwybod am Dr Bill Kirkup. Dywedodd mewn rhaglen nos Lun, ar Panorama:
'Mae diwylliant eang yn y GIG lle mai'r peth iawn i'w wneud os ydych yn cael eich beirniadu yw gweithio gyda'ch gilydd i ddiogelu eich hunain, i reoli eich enw da.'
'Y cam cyntaf er mwyn gwneud hynny, fel arfer, yw gwadu a dargyfeirio bai, ac mae hynny'n cuddio'r problemau.'
Yn anffodus, mae hynny'n wir am lawer gormod o bobl, a chlywsom yn ddiweddar am broblemau ym Mwrdd Iechyd Bae Abertawe gyda'r unedau mamolaeth yno, a theulu Channon yn dweud eu bod yn pryderu bod y gwir wedi'i gelu. Felly, er mwyn osgoi hynny, er mwyn cryfhau a rhoi’r cymorth sydd ei angen arnynt i reolwyr, dyna pam fod angen inni weld corff rheoleiddio'n cael ei sefydlu yma yng Nghymru, fel y gallwn weld gwelliant nid yn unig o ran diwylliant, ond wrth godi safonau a meithrin hyder ymhlith y cleifion. Felly, hoffwn ofyn i bawb ystyried cefnogi’r cynnig hwn heddiw. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid nodi'r cynnig? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthwynebiad. Felly, gohiriaf y bleidlais ar yr eitem hon tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.
The proposal is to note the proposal. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Therefore, I will defer voting under this item until voting time.
Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.
Voting deferred until voting time.
Symudwn ni ymlaen, felly, i eitem 9, sef dadl ar ddeiseb P-06-1359 a deiseb P-06-1362 ynghylch cymorth ar gyfer costau gofal plant. Dwi'n galw ar Gadeirydd y pwyllgor i wneud y cynnig—Jack Sargeant.
We'll move on now to item 9, which is a debate on petitions P-06-1359 and P-06-1362 concerning support for childcare costs. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Jack Sargeant.
Cynnig NDM8467 Jack Sargeant
Cynnig bod y Senedd:
Yn nodi'r deisebau canlynol ynghylch cymorth ar gyfer costau gofal plant:
a) deiseb P-06-1359 'Dylid cynnig yr un cymorth ariannol ar gyfer gofal plant i rieni sy'n gweithio yng Nghymru â'r hyn sydd ar gael yn Lloegr' a gasglodd 10,820 o lofnodion; a
b) deiseb P-06-1362 'Dylid darparu cynnig cyfatebol yng Nghymru i'r cynnig gofal plant newydd yn Lloegr, sef 15 awr, ar gyfer plant 2 flwydd oed o fis Ebrill 2024' a gasglodd 407 o lofnodion.
Motion NDM8467 Jack Sargeant
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the following the petitions concerning support for childcare costs:
a) petition P-06-1359 'Offer Welsh working parents the same financial support for childcare as England', which received 10,820 signatures; and
b) petition P-06-1362 'Match the new childcare offer in England of 15 hours for 2 year old's from April 2024', which received 407 signatures.
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd dros dro. Ar ran y Pwyllgor Deisebau, diolch am y cyfle i gyflwyno'r ddadl bwysig hon.
Thank you very much, acting Presiding Officer. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, thank you for the opportunity to submit this important debate.
Can I also extend my thanks to members of the Business Committee for enabling us to schedule this debate during the period when the Welsh Government is finalising their budget? I see the Minister for finance is with us here today. Presiding Officer, it's because, at their heart, the petitions that we are debating today are about the choices that we make here in Cymru on behalf of the people of Cymru about how we spend their money.
A gaf i ddiolch hefyd i aelodau’r Pwyllgor Busnes am ein galluogi i amserlennu’r ddadl hon yn ystod y cyfnod pan fydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn cwblhau ei chyllideb derfynol? Gwelaf fod y Gweinidog cyllid yma gyda ni heddiw. Lywydd, oherwydd, yn eu hanfod, mae’r deisebau yr ydym yn eu trafod heddiw yn ymwneud â’r dewisiadau a wnawn yma yng Nghymru ar ran pobl Cymru ynglŷn â sut y gwariwn eu harian.
Llywydd, we are debating two petitions today that touch on two very similar issues. Petition P-06-1359, 'Offer Welsh working parents the same financial support for childcare as England' reads, and I quote:
'In England from April 24 all working parents of 2 year olds get 15 hours free childcare. From September 24 this will be extended to parents of 9 months old +. From September 25 the free hours will be extended to 30.
'In comparison Wales will take until September 25 to provide 12.5 hours to all 2 year olds. With no plan in place for 9 months + or increasing the hours to 15 or 30.
'We’re in a cost of living crisis where the Welsh Gov have the ability to support working parents but aren’t.'
Presiding Officer, this petition was submitted by Jade Richards, with a total of 10,820 signatures, and Jade is here in the Senedd today.
The other petition, P-06-1362, 'Match the new childcare offer in England of 15 hours for 2 year old's from April 2024' was submitted by Madelaine Hallam, with 407 signatures, and I'm sure, Presiding Officer, you can see why we've joined both these petitions together for debate today. But these petitions alone aren't the only contributions to the debate around childcare in Wales. In November 2023, Oxfam published some work done on behalf of the Make Care Fair coalition. That work was clear: the current system does some things well but isn't the answer. They said, Presiding Officer, and I quote:
'While considerable strides have been made in childcare provision and early education in Wales, the persisting challenge of ensuring straightforward, equitable access to high-quality and affordable childcare remains a pressing concern.'
They say that childcare costs are, and, again, I quote,
'forcing Welsh parents into poverty and putting them off having more children.'
And that's why we're here today, Presiding Officer. It's also why the Equality and Social Justice Committee launched its follow-up inquiry into childcare at the beginning of the year. In their original report at the end of January 2022, the committee called for changes to the way the Welsh Government provided its childcare offer to working parents. The report, 'Minding the future: The childcare barrier facing working parents' analysed the current system, as it was then, and concluded that parents in Wales faced an array of barriers to accessing the care that they're entitled to. I'm pleased to see that work is being revisited to see what progress has been made and what barriers remain, and I see the Chair of the committee in front of us today, who perhaps may enlighten us some more.
Presiding Officer, this is an issue where the Welsh Government has been active. It's an area explicitly mentioned in the partnership agreement that sets out the priorities of this Welsh Government, and that document says, and I quote:
'We share an ambition to provide good quality early childhood education and care to all children in Wales. Significant capital and revenue resources will be devoted to this ambition during the period of this agreement, focusing on two year olds.'
But there's a lot of confusion, Presiding Officer, about what's on offer here in Wales and what's on offer in England. Parents need that clarity and they deserve it. Anyone who has followed the debate in England about childcare can see that there is scepticism that the UK Government's pronouncements can be delivered, but what is also clear, Presiding Officer, is that there's a significant number of people in Wales, people who signed these two petitions, who are unhappy with the current offer and roll-out here.
Many of us across the Chamber will have conversations with constituents who really need support and feel frustrated by the speed of change. This will include people who just live a street away from neighbours who are receiving support through Flying Start, yet they receive no support at all. And it could be perfectly plausible and possible that parents not receiving support could be under more financial pressure than those around the corner. And, Presiding Officer, the petitioners have said to me they are not against the premise of Flying Start and the idea of Flying Start, but they do question how it's delivered in practice.
And it's examples like these, and others, that have been raised directly by the petitioner to the Minister that need a response. I hope that the debate today provides the opportunity for the Minister to provide the clarity parents deserve and need, to see the progress that the Welsh Government has made on delivering their current promise in the partnership agreement and the next steps on that journey. I hope too it clarifies for parents what is and what isn't available to them, why the priorities of the Welsh Government are what the priorities are, and the spending choices that follow from that and if they are different to England, and, if so, why.
A direct question from the petitioner just some half an hour ago, Presiding Officer, to the Minister, if I may, was: 'The money that the Welsh Government have received from the UK Government's announcement and from that offer that they have made in England, can I ask you, Minister, what has that been spent on directly?' That was the question from the petitioner I've just met upstairs.
Presiding Officer, I look forward to this debate. I look forward to the Minister's response. This is a real issue of great concern for parents up and down the country of Wales. I hope we do provide some clarity in this debate today. Diolch.
Lywydd, rydym yn trafod dwy ddeiseb heddiw sy'n cyffwrdd â dau fater tebyg iawn. Mae deiseb P-06-1359, 'Dylid cynnig yr un cymorth ariannol ar gyfer gofal plant i rieni sy'n gweithio yng Nghymru â'r hyn sydd ar gael yn Lloegr' yn nodi, ac rwy'n dyfynnu:
'Yn Lloegr, o fis Ebrill 24, bydd pob rhiant sy'n gweithio â phlant 2 oed yn cael 15 awr o ofal plant am ddim. O fis Medi 24, bydd hyn yn cael ei estyn i rieni â phlant 9 mis oed a hŷn. O fis Medi 25, bydd nifer yr oriau o ofal plant am ddim yn cynyddu i 30.'
'Mewn cymhariaeth, yng Nghymru, bydd yn cymryd tan fis Medi 25 i ddarparu 12.5 awr o ofal plant am ddim i bob rhiant â phlant 2 oed. A hynny heb gynllun ar waith i rieni â phlant 9 mis oed a hŷn na chynyddu nifer yr oriau i 15 neu 30.'
'Rydym mewn argyfwng costau byw lle y mae gan Lywodraeth Cymru y gallu i gefnogi rhieni sy'n gweithio ond nid yw’n gwneud hynny.'
Lywydd, cyflwynwyd y ddeiseb hon gan Jade Richards, gyda chyfanswm o 10,820 o lofnodion, ac mae Jade yma yn y Senedd heddiw.
Cyflwynwyd y ddeiseb arall, P-06-1362, 'Dylid darparu cynnig cyfatebol yng Nghymru i’r cynnig gofal plant newydd yn Lloegr, sef 15 awr, ar gyfer plant 2 flwydd oed o fis Ebrill 2024' gan Madelaine Hallam, gyda 407 o lofnodion, ac rwy'n siŵr, Lywydd, y gallwch weld pam ein bod wedi uno’r ddwy ddeiseb ar gyfer eu trafod heddiw. Ond nid y deisebau hyn yw'r unig gyfraniadau i'r ddadl ynghylch gofal plant yng Nghymru. Ym mis Tachwedd 2023, cyhoeddodd Oxfam waith a wnaed ar ran y gynghrair Gwneud Gofal yn Deg. Roedd y gwaith hwnnw’n glir: mae’r system bresennol yn gwneud rhai pethau’n dda, ond nid y system bresennol yw'r ateb. Roeddent yn dweud:
'Er bod camau breision wedi’u cymryd o ran darpariaeth gofal plant ac addysg gynnar yng Nghymru, mae’r her barhaus o sicrhau mynediad syml, teg at ofal plant fforddiadwy o ansawdd uchel yn parhau i fod yn bryder difrifol.'
Maent yn dweud bod costau gofal plant,
'yn gorfodi rhieni Cymru i dlodi ac yn eu hatal rhag cael mwy o blant.'
A dyna pam ein bod yma heddiw, Lywydd. Dyna pam hefyd y lansiodd y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb a Chyfiawnder Cymdeithasol ei ymchwiliad dilynol i ofal plant ar ddechrau'r flwyddyn. Yn eu hadroddiad gwreiddiol ddiwedd mis Ionawr 2022, galwodd y pwyllgor am newidiadau i’r ffordd y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn darparu ei chynnig gofal plant i rieni sy’n gweithio. Roedd yr adroddiad, 'Gwarchod y dyfodol: y rhwystr gofal plant sy'n wynebu rhieni sy'n gweithio' yn dadansoddi'r system bresennol, fel yr oedd bryd hynny, a daeth i'r casgliad fod rhieni yng Nghymru yn wynebu amrywiaeth o rwystrau rhag cael mynediad at y gofal y mae ganddynt hawl iddo. Rwy'n falch o weld bod y gwaith hwnnw'n cael ei ailystyried i weld pa gynnydd a wnaed a pha rwystrau sy'n parhau i fodoli, a gwelaf Gadeirydd y pwyllgor o'n blaenau heddiw, a gallai roi mwy o fanylion i ni, efallai.
Lywydd, mae hwn yn fater y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi cymryd camau gweithredol arno. Mae'n faes a grybwyllir yn benodol yn y cytundeb partneriaeth sy'n nodi blaenoriaethau'r Llywodraeth hon yng Nghymru, ac mae'r ddogfen honno'n nodi:
'Mae gennym uchelgais cyffredin i ddarparu addysg a gofal o ansawdd da i bob plentyn yng Nghymru yn ystod ei blentyndod cynnar. Bydd adnoddau cyfalaf a refeniw sylweddol yn cael eu neilltuo er mwyn gwireddu’r uchelgais hwn yn ystod cyfnod y cytundeb hwn, gan ganolbwyntio ar blant dwy flwydd oed.'
Ond Lywydd, mae llawer o ddryswch ynglŷn â beth sy'n cael ei gynnig yma yng Nghymru a beth sy'n cael ei gynnig yn Lloegr. Mae angen eglurder ar rieni, ac maent yn ei haeddu. Gall unrhyw un sydd wedi dilyn y ddadl ynglŷn â gofal plant yn Lloegr weld bod amheuaeth a ellir cyflawni datganiadau Llywodraeth y DU, ond mae'n glir hefyd, Lywydd, fod nifer sylweddol o bobl yng Nghymru, pobl a lofnododd y ddwy ddeiseb hyn, yn anfodlon ynghylch y cynnig presennol a’r ffordd y caiff ei roi ar waith yma.
Bydd llawer ohonom ar draws y Siambr yn cael sgyrsiau ag etholwyr sydd angen cymorth yn fawr ac sy’n teimlo’n rhwystredig oherwydd arafwch y newid. Bydd hyn yn cynnwys pobl sy'n byw ar y stryd agosaf i gymdogion sy’n cael cymorth drwy Dechrau’n Deg, ond eto, nid ydynt hwy'n cael unrhyw gymorth o gwbl. A gallai fod yn berffaith debygol a phosibl y gallai rhieni nad ydynt yn cael cymorth fod o dan fwy o bwysau ariannol na'r rheini sy'n byw rownd y gornel. A Lywydd, mae'r deisebwyr wedi dweud wrthyf nad ydynt yn erbyn egwyddor Dechrau'n Deg a'r syniad o Dechrau'n Deg, ond maent yn cwestiynu'r ffordd y caiff ei roi ar waith yn ymarferol.
Ac mae angen i'r Gweinidog ymateb i enghreifftiau fel y rhain, ac eraill, sydd wedi'u codi'n uniongyrchol gan y deisebydd. Rwy'n gobeithio bod y ddadl heddiw yn rhoi cyfle i’r Gweinidog ddarparu’r eglurder y mae rhieni'n ei haeddu a’i angen, i weld y cynnydd y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi’i wneud ar gyflawni eu haddewid presennol yn y cytundeb partneriaeth a’r camau nesaf ar y daith honno. Rwy'n gobeithio hefyd y bydd y ddadl yn egluro i rieni beth sydd ar gael iddynt a beth nad yw ar gael, pam fod gan Lywodraeth Cymru y blaenoriaethau sydd ganddi, a’r dewisiadau gwariant yn sgil hynny ac os ydynt yn wahanol i Loegr, pam hynny.
Lywydd, os caf, cwestiwn uniongyrchol gan y deisebydd tua hanner awr yn ôl i’r Gweinidog oedd: 'A gaf i ofyn i chi, Weinidog, ynghylch yr arian y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi’i gael o gyhoeddiad Llywodraeth y DU ac o’r cynnig y maent wedi’i wneud yn Lloegr, ar beth y mae'r arian hwnnw wedi’i wario’n uniongyrchol?' Dyna oedd y cwestiwn gan y deisebydd yr wyf newydd gyfarfod â hwy i fyny'r grisiau.
Lywydd, edrychaf ymlaen at y ddadl hon. Edrychaf ymlaen at ymateb y Gweinidog. Mae hwn yn fater o gryn bryder i rieni ledled Cymru. Rwy'n gobeithio y gallwn roi rhywfaint o eglurder iddynt yn y ddadl hon heddiw. Diolch.
I would like to thank my committee Chair, Jack Sargeant, for opening and the petitioners for raising such an important petition topic. As we all know, childcare is one of the, if not the biggest financial drain on family and household budgets. Many families are ultimately faced with the prospect that childcare costs are not covered by the net income of one of the parents or guardians, and therefore they're economically forced to give up work to provide care for the children. Whilst this is sustainable for some families where one member is a high earner, for many families this will have long-term implications, particularly with the cost of living as it is, and this can so easily push a family into long-term poverty.
Moreover, we're ultimately losing trained and economically active people from the workforce, not only in the short term but potentially in the longer term as well. Those leaving their jobs to look after children because they cannot afford nursery fees can find it extremely difficult to re-enter the workforce several years later, and they face the prospect of returning to entry-level positions because of the gap in their employment history. This point is very important because it disproportionately affects women. I recognise that there are ever-increasing numbers of stay-at-home dads. However, women still take on the majority of childcare duties, and this has a big impact on their finances. Not only are they more dependent on the sole earner but they also lose out on pension contributions, and this has a big impact in retirement, more so if the couple are unmarried and split up; the rights to claim pension contributions and other finances are not clearly defined.
Families that cannot afford childcare or to lose an income from the household also face the prospect of juggling very complicated childcare arrangements, using family or friends to cover. This can be particularly hard during the school holidays, which, when you include five INSET days per year, amounts to almost 70 days' holiday, more than twice the average holiday entitlement of an average British worker. Meeting this demand without help from family or expensive childcare is impossible, and for single-parent families it must be a constant worry and concern. It is therefore imperative that the childcare provisions we have are the best that we can offer.
I fully support this petition because it is clear to me that having up to 30 hours of free childcare from the age of nine months available to all families is going to dramatically help them, not only with their finances, but also to manage the new responsibilities that they now have. It is going to help mums and dads stay in employment, and, for many women, after their maternity leave they will be able to afford to pick their careers back up and keep up with their pension contributions.
Acting Llywydd, in this Chamber we talk a lot about future generations and well-being, but what could be more helpful to the health and well-being of families than helping them to meet their childcare needs? Wales has around 30 per cent of children living in poverty and it's the only nation in the UK where child poverty rates are increasing. Surely it is common sense to help struggling families to stay in work and to help them to be able to afford not to rely on state aid. The UK Government proposals will trigger £180 million-worth of consequential funding in Wales for this, and I see no reason why we cannot offer the same system for up to 30 hours of free childcare for nine-month-olds and older here. We need to be a nation that shows that we support families and is tuned into their needs. For too long, we have had a system where having children is so detrimental to families that it either ends up pushing them into poverty or financial difficulty, or they decide to delay or not have any at all.
Finally, acting Llywydd, I want to highlight one last point. As I’ve previously expressed in this Chamber, the Welsh Government seems to have this compulsion of always doing things differently to England, regardless of whether or not the policy in England would actually be more beneficial for us. I acknowledge that this is a debate for another time, but I will say this: the Welsh Government are short-sighted in this approach, because if a family has the option available to receive a better system in England and be thousands of pounds better off, then they will move across the border and this will continue to contribute to the brain drain that we are experiencing in Wales. It is their skills and experiences that will be utilised within the English economy rather than the Welsh economy, and Members here may scoff at this, but if you are planning a family, the childcare offer you receive in England compared to Wales may well affect where you as a family decide to settle and call home. Thank you.
Hoffwn ddiolch i Gadeirydd fy mhwyllgor, Jack Sargeant, am agor y ddadl ac i’r deisebwyr am godi pwnc deiseb mor bwysig. Fel y gŵyr pob un ohonom, gofal plant yw un o’r pwysau ariannol mwyaf, os nad y mwyaf, ar gyllidebau teuluoedd ac aelwydydd. Mae llawer o deuluoedd yn wynebu'r posibilrwydd na all incwm net un o'r rhieni neu warcheidwaid dalu am gostau gofal plant, ac felly cânt eu gorfodi'n economaidd i roi'r gorau i weithio er mwyn darparu gofal i'r plant. Er bod hyn yn gynaliadwy i rai teuluoedd lle mae un aelod yn ennill cyflog uchel, i lawer o deuluoedd, bydd gan hyn oblygiadau hirdymor, yn enwedig gyda chostau byw fel y maent, a gall hyn wthio teulu i dlodi hirdymor yn hawdd.
Yn ychwanegol at hynny, yn y pen draw rydym yn colli pobl sydd wedi'u hyfforddi ac economaidd weithgar o'r gweithlu, nid yn unig yn y tymor byr, ond o bosibl yn y tymor hwy hefyd. Gall pobl sy’n gadael eu swyddi i ofalu am blant am na allant fforddio ffioedd meithrinfa ei chael hi’n anodd iawn ailymuno â’r gweithlu sawl blwyddyn yn ddiweddarach, ac maent yn wynebu’r posibilrwydd o ddychwelyd i swyddi lefel mynediad oherwydd y bwlch yn eu hanes cyflogaeth. Mae'r pwynt hwn yn bwysig iawn gan ei fod yn effeithio'n anghymesur ar fenywod. Rwy’n cydnabod bod niferoedd cynyddol o dadau’n aros gartref. Fodd bynnag, mae menywod yn dal i ysgwyddo'r rhan fwyaf o ddyletswyddau gofal plant, ac mae hyn yn cael effaith fawr ar eu harian. Nid yn unig eu bod yn fwy dibynnol ar yr unig enillydd, maent hefyd ar eu colled gyda chyfraniadau pensiwn, ac mae hyn yn cael effaith fawr pan fyddant yn ymddeol, yn fwy felly os yw'r cwpl yn ddibriod ac wedi gwahanu; nid yw'r hawliau i hawlio cyfraniadau pensiwn a chyllid arall wedi'u diffinio'n glir.
Mae teuluoedd na allant fforddio gofal plant neu sy'n colli incwm o'r cartref hefyd yn wynebu'r posibilrwydd o orfod dibynnu ar drefniadau gofal plant cymhleth iawn, gan ddefnyddio teulu neu ffrindiau i helpu. Gall hyn fod yn arbennig o anodd yn ystod gwyliau’r ysgol, sydd, o gynnwys pum diwrnod HMS y flwyddyn, bron yn 70 diwrnod o wyliau, mwy na dwywaith yr hawl gyfartalog i wyliau i weithiwr cyffredin ym Mhrydain. Mae ateb y galw hwn heb gymorth gan deulu neu ofal plant drud yn amhosibl, ac i deuluoedd un rhiant, mae’n rhaid ei fod yn bryder a gofid cyson. Mae’n hollbwysig, felly, ein bod yn cynnig y darpariaethau gofal plant gorau posibl.
Rwy’n cefnogi’r ddeiseb hon yn llwyr am ei bod yn amlwg i mi fod sicrhau bod hyd at 30 awr o ofal plant ar gyfer plant o naw mis oed ymlaen ar gael i bob teulu yn mynd i’w helpu’n ddramatig, nid yn unig gyda’u harian, ond hefyd i reoli’r cyfrifoldebau newydd sydd ganddynt bellach. Mae'n mynd i helpu mamau a thadau i aros mewn swyddi, ac i lawer o fenywod, ar ôl eu cyfnod mamolaeth, byddant yn gallu fforddio ailafael yn eu gyrfaoedd a pharhau â'u cyfraniadau pensiwn.
Lywydd Dros Dro, yn y Siambr hon, rydym yn sôn yn aml am genedlaethau’r dyfodol a llesiant, ond beth allai fod yn fwy defnyddiol i iechyd a llesiant teuluoedd na’u helpu i ddiwallu eu hanghenion gofal plant? Mae oddeutu 30 y cant o blant Cymru yn byw mewn tlodi, a dyma'r unig wlad yn y DU lle mae cyfraddau tlodi plant ar gynnydd. Synnwyr cyffredin yw helpu teuluoedd sy’n ei chael hi’n anodd i aros mewn gwaith a’u helpu i allu fforddio peidio â bod yn ddibynnol ar gymorth gwladwriaethol. Bydd cynigion Llywodraeth y DU yn sbarduno gwerth £180 miliwn o gyllid canlyniadol yng Nghymru ar gyfer hyn, ac ni welaf unrhyw reswm pam na allwn gynnig yr un system ar gyfer hyd at 30 awr o ofal plant am ddim i blant naw mis oed a hŷn yma. Mae angen inni fod yn genedl sy’n dangos ein bod yn cefnogi teuluoedd ac sy’n ymwybodol o’u hanghenion. Ers gormod o amser, mae gennym system lle mae cael plant mor niweidiol i deuluoedd fel eu bod naill ai’n eu gwthio i dlodi neu i drafferthion ariannol, neu maent yn penderfynu oedi neu beidio â chael plant o gwbl.
Yn olaf, Lywydd dros dro, hoffwn dynnu sylw at un pwynt olaf. Fel y nodais o’r blaen yn y Siambr hon, ymddengys bod gan Lywodraeth Cymru ysfa i wneud pethau’n wahanol i Loegr bob amser, pa un a fyddai’r polisi yn Lloegr yn fwy buddiol i ni ai peidio. Rwy’n cydnabod mai dadl ar gyfer rhyw dro eto yw hon, ond fe ddywedaf hyn: mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn gibddall yn hyn o beth, oherwydd os oes opsiwn ar gael i deulu gael system well yn Lloegr ac i fod filoedd o bunnoedd yn well eu byd, byddant yn symud dros y ffin, a bydd hyn yn parhau'r draen dawn a welwn yng Nghymru. Bydd eu sgiliau a’u profiadau'n cael eu defnyddio yn economi Lloegr yn hytrach nag yn economi Cymru, ac efallai y bydd yr Aelodau yma'n wfftio hyn, ond os ydych chi'n bwriadu cael teulu, gallai'r cynnig gofal plant a gewch yn Lloegr o gymharu â Chymru effeithio ar ble fyddwch chi fel teulu'n penderfynu byw a'i alw'n gartref. Diolch.
Mae gen i lawer o gydymdeimlad â'r rhai sydd wedi cyflwyno a llofnodi'r deisebau yma, a dwi'n cefnogi bwriad y deisebau yn llwyr, achos buddsoddi yn y blynyddoedd cynnar yw'r cam pwysicaf y gellid ei gymryd o ran sicrhau cydraddoldeb, yn ôl UNICEF. Mae'r angen ar gyfer darpariaeth well o ofal plant fforddiadwy yn alwad mae Plaid Cymru wedi bod yn ei wneud ers blynyddoedd, ac fel rydyn ni wedi clywed, mae adroddiad ar ôl adroddiad wedi dangos pam mae hyn yn allweddol o ran sicrhau bod gan ein plant y dechrau gorau mewn bywyd, ac i helpu teuluoedd i fedru manteisio ar gyfleoedd gwaith.
Roeddwn i'n falch o sefyll ar faniffesto Plaid Cymru, fel ymgeisydd yn yr etholiad Senedd diwethaf, a oedd yn pwysleisio pwysigrwydd creu gwasanaeth gofal plant cenedlaethol ar gyfer pob plentyn o 12 mis ar gyfer 48 wythnos y flwyddyn, ac rwy'n dal i gredu hynny. Ac ar ôl cael fy ethol, roeddwn i'n falch o gefnogi'r cam yn y cytundeb cydweithio â'r Llywodraeth i ymestyn gofal plant am ddim ar gyfer plant dwyflwydd. Ac o'r herwydd mae Cymru nawr ar y droed blaen o ran ehangu gofal plant, er yr addewidion polisi newydd yn Lloegr sydd heb eto dechrau cael eu gweithredu. Ni fydd y cynnig gofal plant yn Lloegr ar gael i bob plentyn a theulu, a bydd ond yn cwmpasu 38 wythnos o'r flwyddyn, gan adael 14 wythnos heb unrhyw gymorth gofal plant o gwbl. Byddai hyn yn dal i wneud gofal plant yn anfforddiadwy i lawer o deuluoedd, a gallai hefyd danseilio’r sector â’i hangen am sicrwydd y bydd teuluoedd yn defnyddio ei gwasanaethau am y mwyafrif helaeth o’r flwyddyn.
Ond mae Plaid Cymru hefyd wedi ategu'r galwadau ar Lywodraeth Cymru sydd wedi eu cynnwys yn y deisebau, ac a wnaed yn sgil datganiadau'r Canghellor, i sicrhau bod unrhyw gyllid a ddaw i Gymru yn sgil ariannu ehangu gofal plant yn Lloegr yn mynd tuag at yr un nod yng Nghymru. Achos mae hwn yn fater cwbl allweddol o ran taclo'r lefelau cywilyddus o dlodi plant ac anghydraddoldeb sy'n creithio ein cymunedau.
Roeddwn i'n siomedig nad oedd mwy o sylw wedi cael ei roi i bwysigrwydd allweddol ehangu gofal plant yn strategaeth tlodi plant newydd y Llywodraeth. Achos yr hyn a glywon ni, aelodau’r Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb a Chyfiawnder Cymdeithasol, gan yr arbenigwyr rhyngwladol a gyflwynodd dystiolaeth i ni oedd bod darpariaeth lawn o ofal plant fforddiadwy yn gwbl greiddiol i daclo tlodi. Dyna pam wnaethon ni fel pwyllgor argymell i'r Llywodraeth y dylid sicrhau darpariaeth gofal plant ddi-dor a fforddiadwy, drwy gyllid canlyniadol Barnett a fyddai ar gael pe bai cynnydd yn y gwariant yn Lloegr. Achos yr hyn ddywedodd ein tystion wrthym ni oedd, pan ofynnir i rieni incwm isel, 'Beth sydd ei angen arnoch chi?', dro ar ôl tro yr ateb yw, 'Gofal plant, gofal plant. Gofal plant hygyrch, gofal plant fforddiadwy.'
Gadewch i ni gofio mai menywod yw’r mwyafrif helaeth o’r rhai sydd wedi’u cloi mas o’r farchnad lafur ac sydd wedi’u cloi mewn i gyflog isel oherwydd bod gofal plant ddim yn fforddiadwy nac yn hygyrch. Dywedwyd wrthym ni gan yr arbenigwyr mai diffyg argaeledd gofal plant di-dor a fforddiadwy yw'r hyn sy'n creu ac yn gwreiddio anghydraddoldeb ac yn rhan o fagl tlodi.
Mae'r adroddiad gan Sefydliad Bevan i ofal plant sydd wedi ei gyhoeddi heddiw yn pwysleisio unwaith eto pam mae angen mwy o fuddsoddiad ar fyrder. Mae'n pwysleisio anfforddiadwyedd gofal plant yng Nghymru ac effaith andwyol hynny o ran anghydraddoldeb a thlodi. Yn ôl yr adroddiad, mae 70 y cant o rieni yng Nghymru y mae eu plentyn ieuengaf dan 10 oed yn dweud bod gofal plant yn anfforddiadwy. Saith deg y cant. Mae hyn yn ategu yr ymchwil a wnaed yn ddiweddar gan Oxfam Cymru a Make Care Fair, oedd wedi canfod bod 92 y cant o rieni yn dweud bod costau gofal plant yn rhy uchel mewn perthynas â'u hincwm, a 70 y cant yn dweud nad oedd ganddyn nhw unrhyw arian sbâr o'u hincwm ar ôl talu am ofal plant. Mae argaeledd cefnogaeth ar yr adeg iawn hefyd yn ffactor bwysig.
Mae'r adroddiad gan Sefydliad Bevan yn tynnu sylw eto at y patrwm cymhleth o gefnogaeth sy'n bodoli ar hyn o bryd, gyda chymysgedd o gymorth yn dod gan raglenni gwahanol drwy law'r Llywodraeth yn San Steffan a Llywodraeth Cymru, yn ddibynnol ar oedran y plant, lleoliad y teuluoedd a statws gwaith. Mae yna broblem gyda'r ffaith bod ein cynnig gofal plant a'n cynnig Dechrau'n Deg yn ddau gynnig ar wahân. Mae angen un cynnig, cyffredinol, hawdd ei ddeall, hawdd ei gyrchu.
Y peth arall hoffwn ei bwysleisio cyn cloi, yng nghyd-destun y deisebau yma sy'n cael eu trafod, yw'r hyn a ddywed yr adroddiad gan Sefydliad Bevan wrthym ni am y perygl posib i'r setliad datganoli os daw'r newidiadau yn Lloegr i rym. Mae'r deisebau eu hunain yn arwydd o hyn: y cynnydd mewn galwadau i gynnig yr un gefnogaeth yr ochr yma i'r ffin wrth i deuluoedd ddod yn fwy ymwybodol o'r gwahaniaethau rhwng Cymru a Lloegr. Ac mae adroddiad Sefydliad Bevan yn gwneud pwynt pwysig iawn am oblygiadau newidiadau yn Lloegr i gymhwysedd teuluoedd ar gyfer budd-daliadau, a allai arwain at wasgu ar incwm teuluoedd os nad oes diwygio tebyg yn digwydd i'r system gofal yng Nghymru.
Un sylw cyflym cyn cloi, Dirprwy Lywydd dros dro. Dwi eisiau gwneud pwynt cyffredinol ynglŷn â'r angen i ni gael trafodaeth go iawn am lefel y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus sydd eu hangen arnom ni. Rwyf o blaid ehangu gofal plant am ddim, ond dyw e ddim am ddim, yw e? Mae'n rhaid i ni gael sgwrs onest am sut y gallwn ni dalu am hyn. Mae'r sgyrsiau angen eu cael am lefel trethiant i gefnogi a chynnal mesurau blaengar sy'n mynd i ddileu tlodi a mynd i'r afael ag anghydraddoldeb. Roedd clywed y darpar Ganghellor Llafur, Rachel Reeves, yn sôn heddiw na fyddai Llafur am adfer y cap ar fonws bancwyr—
I have a great deal of sympathy with those who have submitted and signed these petitions, and I fully support the aims of the petitions, because investment in the early years is the most important step that can be taken to deliver equality, according to UNICEF. The need for better provision of affordable childcare is a call that Plaid Cymru has been making for years now, and as we've heard, report after report has shown how vital this is to ensure that our children have the best start in life, and to help families to be able to access employment opportunities.
I was pleased to stand on a Plaid Cymru manifesto, as a candidate in the last Senedd elections, that emphasised the importance of creating a national childcare service for every child from the age of 12 months for 48 weeks of the year, and I still believe in that aim. After being elected, I was pleased to support the inclusion in the co-operation agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Government of the extension of free childcare for two-year-olds, and as a result Wales is now in the vanguard in terms of the expansion of childcare, despite the new policy proposals in England, which are yet to be implemented. The childcare offer in England will not be available to every child and family, and it would only span 38 weeks of the year, leaving 14 weeks without any childcare support at all. This would continue to make childcare unaffordable to many families, and could undermine the sector and its need for certainty that families will use its services for most of the year.
However, Plaid Cymru has also echoed the calls on the Welsh Government, which have been included in the petitions, and made following the Chancellor’s statements, to ensure that any funding that comes to Wales as a result of funding the expansion of childcare in England is used for the same purposes in Wales. Because this is a crucial matter in terms of tackling the shameful levels of child poverty and inequality that scar our communities.
I was disappointed that greater attention was not given to the vital importance of expanding childcare in the Government’s new child poverty strategy. Because what we, as members of the Equality and Social Justice Committee, heard from the international experts who gave evidence to us was that full provision of affordable childcare is key to tackling poverty. That is why we, as a committee, recommended to the Government that uninterrupted and affordable childcare should be provided, via Barnett consequentials that would be available if there were an increase in expenditure in England. Because what our witnesses told us was that when parents on low incomes are asked, 'What do you need?', the answer time and time again is, 'Childcare, childcare. Accessible childcare, affordable childcare.'
Let us also remember that women make up the majority of those locked out of the workforce and locked into low wages because childcare is unaffordable and inaccessible. We were told by the experts that the lack of uninterrupted and affordable childcare is what causes inequality and allows it to take root, and is a key component of the poverty trap.
A report on childcare by the Bevan Foundation, published today, emphasises once again why additional investment in this area is urgently needed. It emphasises the unaffordability of childcare in Wales and its detrimental impact on inequality and poverty. According to the report, 70 per cent of parents in Wales whose youngest child is under 10 years of age say that childcare is unaffordable. Seventy per cent. This echoes research recently undertaken by Oxfam Cymru and Make Care Fair, which found that 92 per cent of parents said that childcare costs were too high in relation to their incomes, and 70 per cent of them said that they did not have any spare money left over from their incomes after paying for childcare. The availability of support at the right time is also an important factor.
The Bevan Foundation report draws attention once again to the complex pattern of support that currently exists, with a combination of different sources of support from different programmes from the Welsh Government and the UK Government, which depend on the child's age, the family's location and the family's employment status. There is an issue with the fact that our childcare offer and our Flying Start offer are two separate entities. We need one offer, a general offer that is easily understood and easily accessed.
The other thing I'd like to emphasise before concluding, in the context of these petitions, is what the Bevan Foundation's report tells us about the possible risk to the devolution settlement if these changes in England are implemented. The petitions themselves are a sign of this: the increase in calls to provide the same support on this side of the border as families become increasingly aware of the differences in support in Wales and England. And the Bevan Foundation report makes a very important point about the implications of changes in England to families' eligibility for benefits, which could lead to further pressure on families' incomes if similar reforms are not made to the childcare system in Wales.
One quick comment before concluding, Dirprwy Lywydd dros dro. I want to make a general point about the need for a real debate about the levels of public services that we need. I am in favour of expanding free childcare, but it isn't free of charge, is it? We have to have an honest discussion about how we can pay for this. There are conversations that need to be had about levels of taxation to support and sustain progressive measures that will eradicate poverty and tackle inequality. Hearing the prospective Labour Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, saying yesterday that Labour wouldn't restore the cap on bankers' bonuses—
Mae'n rhaid i chi ddod i ben nawr.
You'll have to conclude now.
—ar ben yr hyn ddywedodd yn Davos yn ddiweddar am beidio cynyddu trethi ar gyfoeth na chwmnïau mawr, yn warthus o ystyried neges y deisebau hyn. Mae'n rhaid i ni fuddsoddi yn ein hased mwyaf gwerthfawr, ein plant.
—on top of what she said in Davos recently about not increasing taxes on wealth or major corporations, was appalling in the context of the message in these petitions. We have to invest in our most precious asset, our children.
I want to start by saying 'thank you so much' to my colleague Jack Sargeant and all of the Petitions Committee for taking this so seriously. Thank you also to Jade and to Madelaine for putting forward these petitions. I've actually had many constituents who have asked me today specifically to speak, because what you wrote really resonates with them and what they're experiencing at the moment. Deputy Minister, I am really looking forward to hearing about the comparison that has been made with the Welsh and the English offer at the moment.
I will also make the point that it shouldn't always have to fall to women or parents to have to bring the childcare issue up, but it does disadvantage women most. They estimate that 1.7 million women are working fewer hours than they would like to, purely because they just don't have access to the childcare that they require.
I would like to also though point out that we have seen this introduction of a new offer in England, but it has been shambolic, to say the least. You can't put out an offer like this without the infrastructure being there, and that is something that, as a member of the Equality and Social Justice Committee, we found came through in our evidence. You need to have the workforce there, and you can see that that's really fallen flat on its face at the moment in England.
I'd also agree though that, to be honest, it's not good enough, really, in Wales or England, at the moment. The UK has the worst childcare offer in Europe as a whole. There are many, many more countries in Europe that have a more comprehensive offer, it is cheaper, there are more hours, there are more ages, and it works around people who are working maybe night shifts, such as NHS workers. If we look at Canada, for example, they've just invested £30 billion in rolling out what is going to be a universal and affordable childcare offer for $10 a day.
But I would like to come back to what Sioned Williams said: childcare is not cheap, and it shouldn't be. And I think that, really, we need to have a really honest conversation, not just in Wales, but in England as well—as you said, the Barnett consequentials for this would have to come from the UK Government and the Treasury—about where we are going, what are we aiming for with our childcare offer, and what are we prepared to do, to change, to fund it. All of those other countries in Europe will charge higher taxes in order to be able to do this. It's not a dissimilar conversation to the one we're also having around childcare. I would argue that childcare should be seen now as critical economic infrastructure.
We should be working for a childcare offer that is extremely affordable and universal, from when the baby is born up until they go to school. I know that at the moment that is impossible—I totally understand that—but I would at least like to believe that that is where we're aiming for. We took evidence from people in Sweden and they were saying, 'Look, we started this two decades ago and that's why we are where we are now.' We really do have to have this conversation and make this commitment.
Hoffwn ddechrau drwy ddweud 'diolch yn fawr' wrth fy nghyd-Aelod, Jack Sargeant, a'r Pwyllgor Deisebau i gyd am roi ystyriaeth ddifrifol i hyn. Diolch hefyd i Jade ac i Madelaine am gyflwyno'r deisebau hyn. Rwyf wedi cael llawer o etholwyr yn gofyn i mi siarad heddiw, oherwydd mae'r hyn a ysgrifennwyd gennych wedi creu cryn argraff arnynt a'r hyn y maent yn ei brofi ar hyn o bryd. Ddirprwy Weinidog, rwy'n edrych ymlaen yn fawr at glywed am y gymhariaeth a wnaed gyda'r cynnig yng Nghymru ac yn Lloegr ar hyn o bryd.
Rwyf hefyd am wneud y pwynt nad lle menywod neu rieni bob amser yw gorfod codi mater gofal plant, ond mae'n sicr yn rhoi menywod dan fwy o anfantais. Maent yn amcangyfrif bod 1.7 miliwn o fenywod yn gweithio llai o oriau nag yr hoffent ei wneud, a hynny oherwydd nad oes ganddynt fynediad at y gofal plant sydd ei angen arnynt.
Hoffwn nodi hefyd er hynny ein bod wedi gweld cynnig newydd yn cael ei gyflwyno yn Lloegr, ond mae wedi bod yn ddi-drefn a dweud y lleiaf. Ni allwch gyflwyno cynnig fel hwn heb gael seilwaith yn ei le, ac mae hynny'n rhywbeth y deuthum i'w weld yn ein tystiolaeth, fel aelod o'r Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb a Chyfiawnder Cymdeithasol. Mae angen i chi gael y gweithlu yn ei le, a gallwch weld bod hynny wedi methu ar hyn o bryd yn Lloegr.
Buaswn yn cytuno hefyd, i fod yn onest, nad yw'n ddigon da yng Nghymru nac yn Lloegr ar hyn o bryd. Gan y DU y mae'r cynnig gofal plant gwaethaf yn Ewrop gyfan. Mae yna lawer mwy o wledydd yn Ewrop sydd â chynnig mwy cynhwysfawr, rhatach, ar gyfer mwy o oriau, ar gyfer mwy o oedrannau, ac mae'n gweithio o gwmpas pobl sy'n gweithio shifftiau nos, efallai, fel gweithwyr GIG. Os edrychwn ar Ganada, er enghraifft, maent newydd fuddsoddi £30 biliwn i gyflwyno'r cynnig a fydd yn ofal plant fforddiadwy i bawb am $10 y dydd.
Ond hoffwn ddod yn ôl at yr hyn a ddywedodd Sioned Williams: nid yw gofal plant yn rhad, ac ni ddylai fod. Ac rwy'n credu bod angen inni gael sgwrs onest iawn, nid yn unig yng Nghymru, ond yn Lloegr hefyd—fel y dywedoch chi, byddai'n rhaid i symiau canlyniadol Barnett ar gyfer hyn ddod gan Lywodraeth y DU a'r Trysorlys—ynglŷn â ble rydym yn mynd, beth yr anelwn ato gyda'n cynnig gofal plant, a beth rydym yn barod i'w wneud, i'w newid, er mwyn ei ariannu. Bydd yr holl wledydd eraill hynny yn Ewrop yn codi trethi uwch er mwyn gallu ei wneud. Nid yw'n sgwrs annhebyg i'r un a gawn ni am ofal plant. Buaswn yn dadlau y dylid ystyried gofal plant bellach yn seilwaith economaidd hanfodol.
Dylem fod yn gweithio tuag at gynnig gofal plant sy'n hynod fforddiadwy a chyffredinol, o'r adeg pan gaiff babi ei eni hyd nes y bydd yn mynd i'r ysgol. Rwy'n gwybod bod hynny'n amhosibl ar hyn o bryd—rwy'n deall hynny'n llwyr—ond buaswn o leiaf yn hoffi credu mai dyna ble rydym yn anelu tuag ato. Fe gawsom dystiolaeth gan bobl yn Sweden ac roeddent yn dweud, 'Edrychwch, fe wnaethom ddechrau hyn ddau ddegawd yn ôl a dyna pam ein bod lle rydym arni nawr.' Mae'n rhaid inni gael y sgwrs hon a gwneud yr ymrwymiad hwn.
Will you take an intervention?
A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?
Of course.
Wrth gwrs.
Thanks, Sarah. You seem to be alluding to wanting a nationalised childcare service. Is that something that you're hoping for?
Diolch, Sarah. Mae'n ymddangos eich bod yn cyfeirio at fod eisiau gwasanaeth gofal plant wedi'i wladoli. A yw hyn yn rhywbeth yr ydych yn gobeithio amdano?
Not necessarily nationalised. But as I said, I would like to see—. It would have to be heavily subsidised. Childcare is not cheap. Whether that's done in the private sector or whether that's nationalised. So, that money does have to come from somewhere. So, no, if you look at countries like Germany, it's not nationalised, but it's still very, very cheap for families. I just think that we need to have some idea of where we are going with this.
Many people will tell you that if you poll issues and policies around childcare, it tends to come out very, very low, and I do believe that that does have an impact on the commitment that is made by all parties and politicians. Because what tends to happen is that the only people who seem to be really in favour of a really great childcare offer are usually people who are using it and going through it, or have people who they know who need it. So, this is also just a wider societal discussion that we have to have, really, around—. And Sioned Williams, you mentioned this as well, about how good it is for children when they have this access too.
But we do have to grasp the nettle. I do think that the campaigners out there are getting louder. I do think that it's not just people any more who are impacted by this who are talking about it. I think it's really fundamental to who we are as a society. Like I said, it would be great to hear the comparison between England and Wales at the moment, but I hope as well, Deputy Minister, that you agree with me that we will get somewhere in future that is the best that it could possible be. Diolch.
Nid ei wladoli o reidrwydd. Ond fel y dywedais, hoffwn weld—. Byddai'n rhaid iddo gael ei sybsideiddio'n sylweddol. Nid yw gofal plant yn rhad. Boed yn y sector preifat neu wedi'i wladoli. Mae'n rhaid i'r arian hwnnw ddod o rywle. Felly, na, os edrychwch ar wledydd fel yr Almaen, nid yw wedi'i wladoli, ond mae'n dal i fod yn rhad iawn i deuluoedd. Rwy'n credu bod angen inni gael rhyw syniad i ble rydym yn mynd gyda hyn.
Bydd llawer o bobl yn dweud wrthych, os gofynnwch am farn ar faterion a pholisïau'n ymwneud â gofal plant, mae'n tueddu i fod yn isel iawn ar y rhestr flaenoriaethau, ac rwy'n credu bod hynny'n cael effaith ar yr ymrwymiad a wneir gan bob plaid a gwleidydd. Oherwydd fel arfer, yr hyn sy'n tueddu i ddigwydd yw mai'r unig bobl sy'n ymddangos fel pe baent yn gryf o blaid cynnig gofal plant gwirioneddol wych yw'r bobl sy'n ei ddefnyddio ac yn mynd drwyddo, neu sydd â phobl y maent yn eu hadnabod sydd ei angen. Felly, mae hon hefyd yn drafodaeth gymdeithasol ehangach sy'n rhaid i ni ei chael am—. A Sioned Williams, roeddech chi'n sôn am hyn hefyd, am ba mor dda ydyw i'r plant sy'n ei gael hefyd.
Ond mae'n rhaid inni wynebu'r her. Rwy'n credu bod yr ymgyrchwyr allan yno'n gweiddi'n fwy croch. Rwy'n credu ei fod yn fwy erbyn hyn na'r bobl yr effeithir arnynt gan hyn ac sy'n siarad amdano. Rwy'n credu ei fod yn hanfodol i bwy ydym fel cymdeithas. Fel y dywedais, byddai'n wych clywed y gymhariaeth rhwng Cymru a Lloegr ar hyn o bryd, ond rwy'n gobeithio hefyd, Ddirprwy Weinidog, eich bod yn cytuno â mi y byddwn yn cyrraedd rhywle yn y dyfodol sydd cystal ag sy'n bosibl iddo fod. Diolch.
We should consider support for childcare costs not just as another state handout, but like business rate relief, this is something that the Welsh Government could do, not just to make people's lives easier, but to stimulate growth—something we have largely failed to do post COVID here in Wales, with the lowest productivity per capita of any UK nation.
But what can we do to stimulate growth? We can stop putting barriers between businesses and their customers. Some of these barriers are fiscal and some of them are regulatory. The provision of good-quality, cheap childcare allows both parents to work, thus stimulates growth. The evidence for this is very clear. We should recognise that, in the UK, we have the most expensive childcare in Europe, as the Member for Bridgend mentioned in the previous contribution. The effect of this is to place parents into hardship. Many cannot afford to make care arrangements for their children in order for them to work. If their childcare costs were cheaper, parents would be less stressed, their children could be placed into care whilst they work and they'd have more money to spend on other things. And there don't seem to be any downsides to this happening.
The UK Government is taking positive steps towards expanding the 30 hours of free childcare scheme for working parents from when their child turns nine months old until they start school. From April 2024, working parents of two-year-olds will be able to access 15 hours of childcare support. From September 2024, 15 hours of childcare support will be extended to working parents with a child from nine months old. From September 2025, 30 hours of childcare will be available for eligible working parents with a child from nine months up to school age. The UK Government is doubling the amount they expect to spend over the next few years from around £4 billion to around £8 billion each year.
So, when I hear contributions saying that the roll-out of it has been chaotic, I struggle to see how that is the case when there is a clear timeline and funds are in place to fund this scheme from the UK Government for parents in England. That's why I'm alluding to the fact that Wales should be doing the same.
The Welsh Government should be matching this commitment and it goes without saying that failure to do so puts Welsh parents at a significant disadvantage. A typical two-earner family spends around 30 per cent of its income on childcare, the highest of any developed country. Unaffordable childcare is also disastrous for equality because it drives mothers away from the workforce, as Sioned alluded to, making women in Wales less equal with regard to access to the workplace than women in England. That alludes also to the brain drain that Joel mentioned in his contribution—something that we need to stop here in Wales. As I have already mentioned, this is a huge drag on productivity. During a cost-of-living crisis, the Welsh Government should shoulder the burden of one of Welsh households' biggest expenditures, because the economic benefits are all so clear.
The same response that we hear on everything—and I'm sure that the Deputy Minister may say it in response to this debate—is that we don't get enough money from the UK Government. But the consequentials for Wales that have been mentioned in this debate are quite clear, and it's a case of priorities, sometimes. As I made clear earlier on in my contribution, the failure is fiscal. It's the Welsh Government's poor allocation of funds, removing investment in areas that will, in the long term, pay for themselves and pouring money into fiscal black holes and vanity schemes. There is no net economic gain to the universal basic income pilot. There is no net economic gain to 20 mph. In fact, it's the opposite: it's a net £9 billion loss. Yet every area of investment that hastens productivity and growth, such as business rate relief and support for childcare costs, the Welsh Government sees fit to cut and disinvest in.
To close, Llywydd dros dro, I urge all Members to consider these petitions carefully, and recognise what matching the UK Government's commitments to childcare will do for the financial situation of many families in Wales, the equality of women and mothers and the economy generally here in Wales. Thank you very much.
Dylem ystyried cymorth ar gyfer costau gofal plant nid yn unig fel budd-dal arall gan y wladwriaeth, ond fel rhyddhad ardrethi busnes, mae'n rhywbeth y gallai Llywodraeth Cymru ei wneud, nid yn unig i wneud bywydau pobl yn haws, ond i ysgogi twf—rhywbeth yr ydym wedi methu ei wneud i raddau helaeth ar ôl COVID yma yng Nghymru, gyda'r cynhyrchiant isaf y pen o blith unrhyw wlad yn y DU.
Ond beth y gallwn ei wneud i ysgogi twf? Gallwn roi'r gorau i osod rhwystrau rhwng busnesau a'u cwsmeriaid. Mae rhai o'r rhwystrau hyn yn ariannol ac mae rhai ohonynt yn rhai rheoleiddiol. Mae darparu gofal plant rhad o ansawdd da yn caniatáu i'r ddau riant weithio, gan ysgogi twf. Mae'r dystiolaeth am hyn yn glir iawn. Dylem gydnabod, yn y DU, fod gennym y gofal plant drutaf yn Ewrop, fel y soniodd yr Aelod dros Ben-y-bont ar Ogwr yn y cyfraniad blaenorol. Effaith hyn yw gorfodi caledi ar rieni. Mae llawer yn methu fforddio gwneud trefniadau gofal ar gyfer eu plant er mwyn iddynt allu gweithio. Pe bai eu costau gofal plant yn rhatach, byddai llai o straen ar rieni, gallai eu plant gael gofal tra byddant yn gweithio a byddai ganddynt fwy o arian i'w wario ar bethau eraill. Ac mae'n ymddangos nad oes unrhyw anfanteision i hyn.
Mae Llywodraeth y DU yn cymryd camau cadarnhaol tuag at ehangu'r cynllun gofal plant am ddim 30 awr ar gyfer rhieni sy'n gweithio o'r adeg pan fydd eu plentyn yn naw mis oed hyd nes y byddant yn dechrau yn yr ysgol. O fis Ebrill 2024, bydd rhieni plant dwy oed sy'n gweithio yn gallu cael mynediad at 15 awr o gymorth gofal plant. O fis Medi 2024, bydd 15 awr o gymorth gofal plant yn cael ei ymestyn i gynnwys rhieni plant naw mis oed sy'n gweithio. O fis Medi 2025, bydd 30 awr o ofal plant ar gael i rieni cymwys sy'n gweithio ac sydd â phlentyn rhwng naw mis oed ac oedran ysgol. Mae Llywodraeth y DU yn dyblu'r swm y maent yn disgwyl ei wario dros y blynyddoedd nesaf o tua £4 biliwn i oddeutu £8 biliwn bob blwyddyn.
Felly, pan glywaf gyfraniadau'n dweud bod ei gyflwyno wedi bod yn ddi-drefn, rwy'n cael trafferth gweld sut y gall hynny fod pan fo llinell amser glir ac arian ar gael i ariannu'r cynllun hwn gan Lywodraeth y DU ar gyfer rhieni yn Lloegr. Dyna pam y dywedaf y dylai Cymru fod yn gwneud yr un peth.
Dylai Llywodraeth Cymru wneud yr un ymrwymiad ac afraid dweud bod methu gwneud hynny'n rhoi rhieni Cymru dan anfantais sylweddol. Mae teulu nodweddiadol lle mae'r ddau riant yn ennill cyflog yn gwario tua 30 y cant o'i incwm ar ofal plant, yr uchaf mewn unrhyw wlad ddatblygedig. Mae gofal plant anfforddiadwy hefyd yn drychinebus o ran cydraddoldeb oherwydd ei fod yn gwthio mamau allan o'r gweithlu, fel y nododd Sioned, gan wneud menywod yng Nghymru yn llai cyfartal o ran mynediad at y gweithle na menywod yn Lloegr. Ceir cysylltiad rhwng hynny hefyd â'r draen dawn a nododd Joel yn ei gyfraniad—rhywbeth y mae angen inni roi diwedd arno yma yng Nghymru. Fel y crybwyllais eisoes, mae hyn yn llyffethair mawr ar gynhyrchiant. Yn ystod argyfwng costau byw, dylai Llywodraeth Cymru ysgwyddo baich un o'r elfennau gwariant mwyaf i aelwydydd Cymru, gan fod yr holl fanteision economaidd mor glir.
Yr ymateb a glywn ar bopeth—ac rwy'n siŵr y bydd y Dirprwy Weinidog yn ei ddweud mewn ymateb i'r ddadl hon—yw nad ydym yn cael digon o arian gan Lywodraeth y DU. Ond mae'r symiau canlyniadol i Gymru a grybwyllwyd yn y ddadl hon yn eithaf clir, ac weithiau, mae'n fater o flaenoriaethau. Fel y dywedais yn gynharach yn fy nghyfraniad, mae'r methiant yn gyllidol. Mae'n deillio o'r ffordd wael y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn dyrannu arian, gan ddileu buddsoddiad mewn meysydd a fydd, yn y tymor hir, yn talu amdanynt eu hunain ac yn hytrach, yn arllwys arian yn ôl i dyllau du cyllidol a chynlluniau porthi balchder. Nid oes unrhyw fudd economaidd net i'r peilot incwm sylfaenol cyffredinol. Nid oes unrhyw elw economaidd net i 20 mya. Y gwrthwyneb sy'n wir: mae'n golled net o £9 biliwn. Eto i gyd, mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn torri ac yn dadfuddsoddi ym mhob maes buddsoddi sy'n prysuro cynhyrchiant a thwf, fel rhyddhad ardrethi busnes a chymorth ar gyfer costau gofal plant.
I gloi, Lywydd dros dro, rwy'n annog pob Aelod i ystyried y deisebau hyn yn ofalus, a chydnabod beth fydd gwneud ymrwymiadau tebyg i rai Llywodraeth y DU ar ofal plant yn ei olygu i sefyllfa ariannol llawer o deuluoedd, cydraddoldeb menywod a mamau, a'r economi yn gyffredinol yma yng Nghymru. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Thank you so much to the petitioners for bringing our attention to this really important issue. It's a really vital concern for many of us here in the Siambr. Like Sarah Murphy and Sioned Williams, I also sit on the Equality and Social Justice Committee, where we have considered childcare, not only in relation to childcare per se, but also in relation to child poverty. It was one of the recommendations that we brought forward in our recent report, 'Calling time on child poverty'.
Having good-quality, accessible, affordable childcare in the language of choice of the parents is absolutely essential to tackling child poverty. It's a no-brainer. It is clear that having good-quality childcare helps the child and the parents. And this is normally, as we've heard, about women in our society, and it's about our economy.
I would like to encourage the Welsh Government to look at childcare in the same way that they have looked at benefits. One of the issues that we have heard is how complex and complicated accessing the childcare system is. If we had a Welsh childcare charter, where parents just told their story once, and on the basis of that were offered good-quality, accessible, affordable childcare in the language of their choice, that would be a game changer for Wales.
We need to make sure that we close the gap between those parents and carers who can afford good quality childcare and those who can't. We had a report—the Welsh Liberal Democrats—called, 'Closing the Gap'. We want a bold vision that is flexible, affordable childcare, for parents of children from nine months to school age to have access to 1,500 hours of funded childcare a year.
So, just to close, Llywydd dros dro, I'd like to hear from the Minister about whether these concerns can be taken forward, and whether there is really serious consideration of the impact that having high-quality, accessible and affordable childcare has in relation to child poverty. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Diolch yn fawr iawn i'r deisebwyr am dynnu ein sylw at y mater pwysig hwn. Mae'n bryder allweddol iawn i lawer ohonom yma yn y Siambr. Fel Sarah Murphy a Sioned Williams, rwyf innau hefyd yn aelod o'r Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb a Chyfiawnder Cymdeithasol, lle rydym wedi ystyried gofal plant, nid yn unig mewn perthynas â gofal plant fel y cyfryw, ond hefyd mewn perthynas â thlodi plant. Roedd yn un o'r argymhellion a gyflwynwyd gennym yn ein hadroddiad diweddar, 'Amser rhoi diwedd ar dlodi plant'.
Mae cael gofal plant fforddiadwy o ansawdd da yn iaith ddewisol y rhieni yn gwbl hanfodol i fynd i'r afael â thlodi plant. Mae hynny'n amlwg. Mae'n amlwg fod cael gofal plant o ansawdd da yn helpu'r plentyn a'r rhieni. Ac mae hyn fel arfer, fel y clywsom, yn ymwneud â menywod yn ein cymdeithas, ac mae'n ymwneud â'n heconomi.
Hoffwn annog Llywodraeth Cymru i edrych ar ofal plant yn yr un modd ag y maent wedi edrych ar fudd-daliadau. Un o'r pethau a glywsom yw pa mor gymhleth yw cael mynediad at y system gofal plant. Pe bai gennym siarter gofal plant yng Nghymru, lle byddai rhieni ond yn dweud eu stori unwaith, ac ar sail hynny'n cael cynnig gofal plant fforddiadwy o ansawdd da a hygyrch yn eu dewis iaith, byddai hynny'n gwneud gwahaniaeth mawr i Gymru.
Mae angen inni sicrhau ein bod yn cau'r bwlch rhwng rhieni a gofalwyr sy'n gallu fforddio gofal plant o ansawdd da a'r rhai na allant wneud hynny. Cawsom adroddiad—Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru—o'r enw 'Cau'r Bwlch'. Rydym eisiau gweledigaeth feiddgar o ofal plant hyblyg, fforddiadwy, i rieni plant o naw mis oed i oedran ysgol gael mynediad at 1,500 awr y flwyddyn o ofal plant wedi'i ariannu.
Felly, i gloi, Lywydd dros dro, hoffwn glywed gan y Gweinidog ynglŷn ag a ellir bwrw ymlaen â'r pethau hyn, ac a geir ystyriaeth ddifrifol o'r effaith y mae cael gofal plant hygyrch a fforddiadwy o ansawdd uchel yn ei chael ar dlodi plant. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
The petitioners need to realise that, from April, working parents in England will be entitled to 15 hours a week of free childcare, if they have a two-year-old. That does not mean that they will actually get that entitlement, because the provision isn't actually there. I mean, clearly, some of it is there, but the provision for all people to suddenly be able to walk into childcare is not there. So, I think we need to get realistic about the complexities of childcare and the importance of ensuring that it is good quality. We do not want lousy childcare for our children, and no parent would knowingly leave their child with someone unless it was good enough for their child.
The assumption from the petitioners is also that any families who are deprived or disadvantaged are already covered by Flying Start, and I'm afraid that that is absolutely not the case. As the Welsh Government knows, this is based on the super-output areas of deprivation, which themselves are blobs on maps, rather than actual communities, where, often, whole streets are divided in two. But clearly, because of the shortage of money, you've got to start from somewhere, so you might as well start with the communities that have been identified as the most deprived. I understand the Welsh Government's strategy is, quite rightly, to then move out from there and include more people, so that most of those who are the poorest will be getting those vital 12.5 hours of childcare at age two. It takes an awful long time, and even that won't cover all the children who are coming from poor families. So, this is a very complicated story.
We know from the report we've done in the Equality and Social Justice Committee, not just the childcare report we did last year, but the child poverty report, 'Calling time on child poverty' a couple of months ago—. The Children, Young People and Education Committee shared evidence with us of just how difficult it was to navigate any form of childcare entitlement if you had a disabled child or you were disabled yourself. That is part of their inquiry, 'Do disabled children have equal rights to education and childcare?' The answer is, 'Absolutely not'. It is really difficult for anybody to navigate where the childcare is, how to get it and what it will cost, but in the case of disabled families, the family information service really does have to step up to the plate and provide families with the information they actually need. If they've got a disabled child, then it should be the family information service that should be doing the research as to what is suitable for a child with a particular disability, not the hard-pressed family with the disabled child. So, I think we really do need to improve the quality of the family information service that is supposed to exist in every single local authority.
We know that work is the quickest route out of poverty, but once you have a child, unless you earn above average wages, you will have great difficulty returning to work, unless you have grandparents or other family living nearby who are prepared to look after your child because they love it. And that's great where that works, but clearly, that doesn't apply to many, many people. We know that inadequate childcare is the biggest cause of the persistent gender pay gap. Even if you have no intention of ever having a child, a woman will still be discriminated against in job selection interviews, as it is assumed that you will, one day, have a child and therefore the employer will have to accommodate your needs to discharge your duties as a parent. Clearly, there's an awful lot that needs to change in the way that society looks at children and the positives of bringing on the next generation. This is a seriously, seriously complicated issue; it involves lots of money and it will involve the UK Government insisting that the general taxpayer is making a much bigger contribution to bringing up the next generation and that it's not individual families, who are being crippled by childcare at the moment.
Mae angen i'r deisebwyr sylweddoli, o fis Ebrill, y bydd gan rieni sy'n gweithio yn Lloegr hawl i gael 15 awr yr wythnos o ofal plant am ddim, os oes ganddynt blentyn dwy flwydd oed. Nid yw hynny'n golygu y byddant yn cael yr hawl honno, oherwydd nid yw'r ddarpariaeth yno mewn gwirionedd. Hynny yw, mae peth ohono yno, yn amlwg, ond nid yw'r ddarpariaeth i bawb allu cerdded i mewn i ofal plant ar unwaith yno. Felly, rwy'n credu bod angen inni fod yn realistig ynglŷn â chymhlethdodau gofal plant a phwysigrwydd sicrhau ei fod o ansawdd da. Nid ydym eisiau gofal plant gwael i'n plant, ac ni fyddai unrhyw riant yn gadael eu plentyn yn fwriadol gyda rhywun oni bai bod y gofal yn ddigon da i'w plentyn.
Y rhagdybiaeth gan y deisebwyr hefyd yw bod unrhyw deuluoedd sy'n ddifreintiedig neu dan anfantais eisoes yn dod o dan Dechrau'n Deg, ac rwy'n ofni nad yw hynny'n wir. Fel y gŵyr Llywodraeth Cymru, mae hyn yn seiliedig ar yr ardaloedd cynnyrch ehangach o amddifadedd, sydd eu hunain yn farciau ar fapiau yn hytrach na chymunedau go iawn, lle bydd strydoedd cyfan, yn aml, wedi'u rhannu'n ddwy. Ond yn amlwg, oherwydd prinder arian, mae'n rhaid i chi ddechrau o rywle, felly waeth i chi ddechrau gyda'r cymunedau y nodwyd mai nhw yw'r rhai mwyaf difreintiedig. Rwy'n deall mai strategaeth Llywodraeth Cymru, yn gwbl briodol, yw symud allan o hynny a chynnwys mwy o bobl, fel y bydd y rhan fwyaf o'r bobl dlotaf yn cael y 12.5 awr allweddol o ofal plant yn ddwy oed. Mae'n cymryd amser hir iawn, ac ni fydd hyd yn oed hynny'n cynnwys yr holl blant sy'n dod o deuluoedd tlawd. Felly, mae hon yn stori gymhleth iawn.
Rydym yn gwybod o'r adroddiad a wnaethom yn y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb a Chyfiawnder Cymdeithasol, nid dim ond yr adroddiad gofal plant a wnaethom y llynedd, ond yr adroddiad ar dlodi plant, 'Amser rhoi diwedd ar dlodi plant' ychydig fisoedd yn ôl—. Rhannodd y Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg dystiolaeth gyda ni ynglŷn â pha mor anodd oedd dod o hyd i ffordd at unrhyw fath o hawl i ofal plant os oedd gennych blentyn anabl neu os oeddech chi'n anabl eich hun. Mae hynny'n rhan o'u hymchwiliad, 'A oes gan blant anabl hawliau cyfartal i addysg a gofal plant?' Yr ateb yw, 'Na, dim o gwbl'. Mae'n anodd iawn i unrhyw un ddod o hyd i ble mae'r gofal plant, sut i'w gael a beth fydd yn ei gostio, ond yn achos teuluoedd anabl, mae'n rhaid i'r gwasanaeth gwybodaeth i deuluoedd gamu i'r adwy a rhoi'r wybodaeth sydd ei hangen arnynt i deuluoedd. Os oes ganddynt blentyn anabl, y gwasanaeth gwybodaeth i deuluoedd a ddylai wneud yr ymchwil ynglŷn â'r hyn sy'n addas i blentyn ag anabledd penodol, nid y teulu sydd dan bwysau. Felly, rwy'n credu bod gwir angen inni wella ansawdd y gwasanaeth gwybodaeth i deuluoedd sydd i fod i fodoli ym mhob awdurdod lleol.
Rydym yn gwybod mai gwaith yw'r llwybr cyflymaf allan o dlodi, ond pan fydd gennych blentyn, oni bai eich bod yn ennill cyflog uwch na'r cyfartaledd, fe fyddwch yn cael anhawster mawr i ddychwelyd i'r gwaith, oni bai bod gennych neiniau a theidiau neu aelodau eraill o'r teulu sy'n byw gerllaw ac sy'n barod i ofalu am eich plentyn am eu bod wrth eu bodd yn gwneud hynny. Ac mae hynny'n wych lle mae'n gweithio, ond yn amlwg, nid yw'n berthnasol i lawer iawn o bobl. Gwyddom mai gofal plant annigonol yw prif achos y bwlch cyflog parhaus rhwng y rhywiau. Hyd yn oed os nad oes gennych unrhyw fwriad o gael plentyn, bydd menyw yn dal yn destun gwahaniaethu mewn cyfweliadau swyddi, gan y rhagdybir y bydd yn cael plentyn rhyw ddydd ac felly bydd yn rhaid i'r cyflogwr ddiwallu ei hangen i gyflawni ei dyletswyddau fel rhiant. Yn amlwg, mae yna lawer iawn sydd angen ei newid yn y ffordd y mae cymdeithas yn edrych ar blant a'r pethau cadarnhaol sy'n gysylltiedig â dod â'r genhedlaeth nesaf i'r byd. Mae hwn yn fater gwirioneddol gymhleth; mae'n galw am lawer iawn o arian a bydd yn golygu bod angen i Lywodraeth y DU fynnu bod y trethdalwr cyffredin yn gwneud cyfraniad llawer mwy tuag at fagu'r genhedlaeth nesaf ac nad teuluoedd unigol, sy'n cael eu llorio gan gost gofal plant ar hyn o bryd, fydd yn talu.
Daeth y Llywydd i’r Gadair.
The Llywydd took the Chair.
Can I also thank the committee for their work in bringing this forward? It's a much-needed petition debate, and thanks to the petitioners who presented it. It's a massive issue for many people, and I won't rehearse the differences between England and Wales, we've heard that enough today. But, unfortunately, the Welsh Government not deciding to follow suit with what is on offer in England places families here in an extremely difficult position.
I recently had the pleasure, it was only last week, of meeting some incredible mothers in my constituency, along with our MP, to hear about the their experiences accessing childcare. Many of these women were working professionals who are eager to get back to the workforce, but basing the childcare offer on the Flying Start areas has become a real postcode lottery as a result, and many are not able to access it, even though their neighbours could well access it. So, they're left in a situation where it is more financially viable to stay at home, rather than pay for childcare. One was a midwife, a profession we are desperate for, yet she has gone back into a non-clinical role because of the inadequate access to childcare. Others were simply just going to lose money, or were losing money, by going to work. This simply isn't sustainable.
On the other side of the coin, I visited, last week, a childcare provider who explained that the funding from the Welsh Government was barely covering the daily cost per child against a backdrop of inflation and salary increases. Indeed, I've been contacted by at least another 10 local settings only in the last few days echoing this same situation. However, it's not just anecdotal, because it is a reflection of a wider situation, with a recent survey showing that 70 per cent of settings did not believe they would have a future, a sustainable future, past 12 months, whilst data from Oxfam found that almost 90 per cent of parents listed affordable childcare as a top priority.
So, in the light of this, it was just absolutely astounding to me that the Welsh Government have reprioritised £11.2 million from the childcare offer funding due to a less-than-expected uptake when we are seeing both parents and providers crying out for more money to create a sustainable service and a service that is widely accessible to a lot more people. So, I support this petition, one that is simply asking for parity with our neighbours in England. It is clear that families in Wales are being let down, or will be let down, if we don't match the offer in England. We've seen what can be done and what is on offer in England, we're just simply asking on behalf of our many, many families in our constituencies for that same opportunity here. Thank you.
A gaf innau hefyd ddiolch i'r pwyllgor am eu gwaith yn cyflwyno hyn? Mae'n ddadl ddeiseb fawr ei hangen, a diolch i'r deisebwyr a'i cyflwynodd. Mae'n fater enfawr i lawer o bobl, ac nid wyf am ailadrodd y gwahaniaethau rhwng Cymru a Lloegr, rydym wedi clywed digon o hynny heddiw. Ond yn anffodus, mae'r ffaith bod Llywodraeth Cymru heb benderfynu dilyn yr hyn sydd ar gael yn Lloegr yn gosod teuluoedd yma mewn sefyllfa anodd dros ben.
Yn ddiweddar, cefais y pleser, yr wythnos diwethaf, o gyfarfod â mamau anhygoel yn fy etholaeth, gyda'n Haelod Seneddol, i glywed am eu profiadau o geisio cael gofal plant. Roedd llawer o'r menywod hyn yn weithwyr proffesiynol sy'n awyddus i fynd yn ôl i'r gweithlu, ond mae seilio'r cynnig gofal plant ar ardaloedd Dechrau'n Deg wedi dod yn loteri cod post go iawn o ganlyniad, ac mae llawer yn methu ei gael, er efallai y gallai eu cymdogion fod yn ei gael. Felly, cânt eu gadael mewn sefyllfa lle mae'n fwy ymarferol yn ariannol iddynt aros gartref, yn hytrach na thalu am ofal plant. Roedd un yn fydwraig, proffesiwn y mae ei angen arnom yn fawr, ac eto mae hi wedi mynd yn ôl i rôl anghlinigol oherwydd y mynediad annigonol at ofal plant. Roedd eraill yn mynd i golli arian, neu yn colli arian, drwy fynd i'r gwaith. Nid yw hyn yn gynaliadwy.
Ar ochr arall y geiniog, ymwelais â darparwr gofal plant yr wythnos diwethaf a esboniodd nad yw cyllid gan Lywodraeth Cymru prin yn talu'r gost ddyddiol y plentyn yn erbyn cefndir o chwyddiant a chyflogau uwch. Yn wir, mae o leiaf 10 lleoliad lleol arall wedi cysylltu â mi yn ystod y dyddiau diwethaf yn unig yn adleisio'r un sefyllfa. Fodd bynnag, nid tystiolaeth anecdotaidd yn unig a geir, oherwydd mae'n adlewyrchiad o sefyllfa ehangach, gydag arolwg diweddar yn dangos nad oedd 70 y cant o leoliadau yn credu y byddai ganddynt ddyfodol, dyfodol cynaliadwy, hwy na 12 mis, tra bod data gan Oxfam wedi canfod bod bron i 90 y cant o rieni wedi rhestru gofal plant fforddiadwy fel prif flaenoriaeth.
Felly, yng ngoleuni hyn, roedd yn syndod enfawr i mi fod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi ail-flaenoriaethu £11.2 miliwn o gyllid y cynnig gofal plant oherwydd bod nifer llai na'r disgwyl wedi manteisio arno a ninnau'n gweld rhieni a darparwyr yn crefu am fwy o arian i greu gwasanaeth cynaliadwy a gwasanaeth sy'n hygyrch i lawer mwy o bobl. Felly, rwy'n cefnogi'r ddeiseb hon, un sydd ond yn gofyn am gydraddoldeb â'n cymdogion yn Lloegr. Mae'n amlwg fod teuluoedd yng Nghymru yn cael cam, neu y byddant yn cael cam, os na chawn gynnig sy'n cymharu â'r cynnig yn Lloegr. Fe welsom beth y gellir ei wneud a'r hyn sydd ar gael yn Lloegr, gofynnwn ar ran ein teuluoedd niferus yn ein hetholaethau am yr un cyfle yma. Diolch.
Y Dirprwy Weinidog Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, nawr, i gyfrannu i'r ddadl. Julie Morgan.
The Deputy Minister for Social Services, now, to contribute to the debate. Julie Morgan.
Diolch. Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity here today to respond to this really important debate about childcare, and thanks to the Petitions Committee for taking this forward and to Jade and Madelaine for bringing these petitions, because it gives us the opportunity to really talk about what is an absolutely crucial matter. We all recognise that high-quality, accessible childcare can be transformational for children, especially those whose families are facing additional challenges. Childcare also brings opportunities for parents to work, which has been discussed a lot here today, particularly women, helping our economy, tackling poverty and reducing inequalities. So, I can't stress more strongly the importance of childcare to the Government.
'Taking Wales Forward' committed us to provide 30 hours a week of Government-funded early education and childcare for working parents of three and four-year-olds. The childcare offer for Wales is currently one of the best offers in the UK, because it covers 48 weeks of the year, compared with England's 38 weeks, which I think Sioned Williams mentioned. It also supports those who are trying to improve their career prospects. From September 2022, we expanded the childcare offer to include all parents in education and training. So, in Wales, it's not just working parents, it's parents who are in education and training as well, and it's for a longer period of the year.
In December 2023, over 15,900 children were accessing the childcare offer, and this includes approximately 650 children whose parents were in education or training, and during the academic year 2022-23, we estimate that around 1,140 additional individual parents were supported because of the expansion of the offer to include eligible parents in education and training, and I think that was a crucial move, to bring childcare to parents in education and training. And we continue to invest in our strategic communication plan to promote our childcare offer through a variety of channels to ensure that eligible parents are encouraged to take up the offer.
And in response to Jenny Rathbone's reference to disabled children, we do provide particular support for disabled children via the childcare offer, but we don't think that is actually enough support, so we are looking at providing more support for disabled children.
So, whilst the Chancellor announced in his spring budget last year an expansion to childcare for working parents in England, it's becoming increasingly clear—as many people have mentioned today—that these promises, which were due to come in from April, will fall well short of expectations, because it's all very well to say you're going to do something, but in order to do it, you have to have the places, you have to have the workforce and you have to work jointly with the workforce, with all the stakeholders, to prepare. And in Wales we have a strong, skilled and ambitious childcare workforce and we're committed to working with them to support the sector to grow. This support is about enabling providers to expand in a way that meets their ambitions. We're all committed to maintaining and developing a highly regarded, highly skilled and a well-rewarded workforce. And we don't intend to compromise our staffing ratios, we don't intend to reduce qualification requirements, or otherwise risk the quality of the experience we provide for children and their families. Again, I think that was a point that Jenny Rathbone made in her contribution, that we want high quality, and so we don't intend to take shortcuts to achieve that.
And the important thing, I think I have to say, is that in order to develop, you've got to work with the people who are actually in the field, because you've got to have the places in order to expand. And so that's why we've got very strong relationships and meet constantly with the bodies who are delivering childcare, and also work very closely with local authorities.
Then, in our programme for government, which is reinforced in our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, we are committed to deliver a phased expansion of early years provision to include all two-year-olds, with a particular emphasis on strengthening Welsh-medium provision. And that is very important, to develop the Welsh-medium provision, and we have seen significant developments. And we're taking this forward through our flagship Flying Start programme, and I think it's important to say that, as has already been said here today, Flying Start, where we've started that already, is where there is most need and most deprivation, and I thoroughly defend that way of developing our childcare provision. We will move outwards, as we are doing at the moment, until eventually we reach all two-year-olds. And I think that is absolutely the right thing to do.
Diolch. Diolch yn fawr iawn am roi'r cyfle i mi yma heddiw i ymateb i'r ddadl bwysig hon am ofal plant, a diolch i'r Pwyllgor Deisebau am fwrw ymlaen â hyn ac i Jade a Madelaine am gyflwyno'r deisebau, oherwydd mae'n rhoi cyfle inni siarad am fater cwbl allweddol. Rydym i gyd yn cydnabod y gall gofal plant hygyrch o ansawdd uchel fod yn drawsnewidiol i blant, yn enwedig plant y mae eu teuluoedd yn wynebu heriau ychwanegol. Mae gofal plant hefyd yn sicrhau cyfleoedd i rieni weithio, rhywbeth y trafodwyd llawer arno yma heddiw, yn enwedig menywod, gan helpu ein heconomi, mynd i'r afael â thlodi a lleihau anghydraddoldebau. Felly, rwy'n pwysleisio'n gryf iawn pa mor bwysig yw gofal plant i'r Llywodraeth.
Ymrwymodd 'Symud Cymru Ymlaen' i ddarparu 30 awr yr wythnos o addysg gynnar a gofal plant a ariennir gan y Llywodraeth i rieni plant tair a phedair oed sy'n gweithio. Ar hyn o bryd mae'r cynnig gofal plant i Gymru yn un o'r cynigion gorau yn y DU, oherwydd mae ar gael 48 wythnos y flwyddyn, o'i gymharu â 38 wythnos yn Lloegr, fel y nododd Sioned Williams, rwy'n credu. Mae hefyd yn cefnogi'r rhai sy'n ceisio gwella eu rhagolygon gyrfa. O fis Medi 2022, fe wnaethom ehangu'r cynnig gofal plant i gynnwys pob rhiant mewn addysg a hyfforddiant. Felly, yng Nghymru, mae'n cynnwys rhieni sydd mewn addysg a hyfforddiant hefyd, nid rhieni sy'n gweithio yn unig, a hynny am gyfnod hirach o'r flwyddyn.
Ym mis Rhagfyr 2023, roedd dros 15,900 o blant yn manteisio ar y cynnig gofal plant, ac mae hyn yn cynnwys tua 650 o blant yr oedd eu rhieni mewn addysg neu hyfforddiant, ac yn ystod blwyddyn academaidd 2022-23, rydym yn amcangyfrif bod tua 1,140 o rieni unigol ychwanegol wedi cael eu cefnogi oherwydd bod y cynnig wedi ei ymestyn i gynnwys rhieni cymwys mewn addysg a hyfforddiant, ac rwy'n credu bod hwnnw'n gam hanfodol, dod â gofal plant i rieni mewn addysg a hyfforddiant. Ac rydym yn parhau i fuddsoddi yn ein cynllun cyfathrebu strategol i hyrwyddo ein cynnig gofal plant drwy amrywiaeth o sianeli i sicrhau bod rhieni cymwys yn cael eu hannog i fanteisio ar y cynnig.
Ac mewn ymateb i gyfeiriad Jenny Rathbone at blant anabl, rydym yn darparu cymorth penodol i blant anabl drwy'r cynnig gofal plant, ond nid ydym yn credu bod hynny'n ddigon o gymorth mewn gwirionedd, felly rydym yn edrych ar ddarparu mwy o gymorth i blant anabl.
Felly, er i'r Canghellor gyhoeddi yng nghyllideb y gwanwyn y llynedd eu bod yn ehangu gofal plant i rieni sy'n gweithio yn Lloegr, mae'n dod yn fwyfwy amlwg—fel y nododd llawer o bobl heddiw—y bydd yr addewidion hyn, a oedd i ddigwydd o fis Ebrill ymlaen, ymhell islaw'r disgwyliadau, oherwydd mae'n ddigon hawdd dweud eich bod yn mynd i wneud rhywbeth, ond er mwyn ei wneud, rhaid ichi gael y lleoedd, rhaid ichi gael y gweithlu a rhaid ichi weithio ar y cyd gyda'r gweithlu, gyda'r holl randdeiliaid, i baratoi. Ac yng Nghymru mae gennym weithlu gofal plant cryf, medrus ac uchelgeisiol ac rydym wedi ymrwymo i weithio gyda nhw i gefnogi'r sector i dyfu. Mae'r cymorth hwn yn ymwneud â galluogi darparwyr i ehangu mewn ffordd sy'n cyflawni eu huchelgeisiau. Rydym i gyd wedi ymrwymo i gynnal a datblygu gweithlu uchel ei barch a medrus iawn ar gyflogau da. Ac nid ydym yn bwriadu cyfaddawdu ar ein cymarebau staffio, nid ydym yn bwriadu gostwng y gofynion cymwysterau, na pheryglu ansawdd y profiad a ddarparwn i blant a'u teuluoedd mewn unrhyw ffordd arall. Unwaith eto, rwy'n credu bod hwnnw'n bwynt a wnaeth Jenny Rathbone yn ei chyfraniad, ein bod eisiau ansawdd uchel, ac felly nid ydym yn bwriadu torri corneli er mwyn cyflawni hynny.
A'r peth pwysig sy'n rhaid imi ei ddweud, er mwyn datblygu, yw bod yn rhaid ichi weithio gyda'r bobl sydd yn y maes, oherwydd mae'n rhaid ichi gael y lleoedd er mwyn ehangu. A dyna pam mae gennym berthynas gref iawn â'r cyrff sy'n darparu gofal plant a pham ein bod yn cyfarfod yn gyson â hwy, a hefyd yn gweithio'n agos iawn gydag awdurdodau lleol.
Yn ein rhaglen lywodraethu, ac fel sy'n cael ei atgyfnerthu yn ein cytundeb cydweithio â Phlaid Cymru, rydym wedi ymrwymo i gyflwyno darpariaeth blynyddoedd cynnar ehangach fesul cam i gynnwys pob plentyn dwy flwydd oed, gyda phwyslais arbennig ar gryfhau'r ddarpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg. Ac mae datblygu'r ddarpariaeth Gymraeg yn bwysig iawn, ac rydym wedi gweld datblygiadau sylweddol. Ac rydym yn bwrw ymlaen â hyn drwy ein rhaglen Dechrau'n Deg flaenllaw, ac rwy'n credu ei bod yn bwysig dweud, fel y dywedwyd eisoes yma heddiw, Dechrau'n Deg, lle rydym wedi dechrau hynny eisoes, yw lle mae'r angen mwyaf a'r amddifadedd mwyaf, ac rwy'n amddiffyn yn llwyr y ffordd honno o ddatblygu ein darpariaeth gofal plant. Byddwn yn symud tuag allan, fel y gwnawn ar hyn o bryd, tan y byddwn yn y pen draw yn cyrraedd pob plentyn dwy flwydd oed. Ac rwy'n credu'n bendant mai dyna'r peth iawn i'w wneud.
Will you take an intervention?
A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?
Yes.
Gwnaf.
I just wanted to ask you, really, with the consequentials that the Welsh Government will be receiving from UK Government as part of the roll-out in England, it seems in your remarks that there is a continued reluctance from the Welsh Government to incorporate the proposed system for England. So, where will that money go from the consequentials, and where will that be spent, because it's a significant amount of money coming across from the UK Government, so where will that go, if it's not going to spent on its intended purpose?
Roeddwn am ofyn i chi, gyda'r symiau canlyniadol y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu derbyn gan Lywodraeth y DU fel rhan o'r broses gyflwyno yn Lloegr, mae'n ymddangos yn eich sylwadau fod yna amharodrwydd parhaus gan Lywodraeth Cymru i ymgorffori'r system arfaethedig ar gyfer Lloegr. Felly, i ble fydd yr arian yn mynd o'r symiau canlyniadol, a ble y caiff ei wario, oherwydd mae swm sylweddol o arian yn dod gan Lywodraeth y DU, felly i ble fydd hwnnw'n mynd, os na chaiff ei wario ar y diben y'i bwriadwyd ar ei gyfer?
Any consequentials that come from England come centrally to the Welsh Government, and it's decided by the Cabinet where that money goes. But I don't know why you have this obsession with us wanting to follow England. We are developing childcare here in Wales in a systematic way, and I see no reason for anything that is happening in England to change the way that we're developing, and we have a plan and we're working towards that plan. In any case, I'm very pleased to say that, through the co-operation agreement, we're making good progress and delivering on the commitments that we've given.
And, of course, Government-funded childcare provision can make an important contribution to mitigating the cost-of-living pressures that families are currently experiencing, and that has been raised in the debate. Childcare, which is an important element of the Flying Start programme, is not only an important means of promoting child development and attainment through high-quality provision, it can obviously be the key to work. And, as we all know, work is the route out of poverty, and I think Joel James and Sarah both mentioned the importance of women in that situation.
So, we're expanding Flying Start in phases. Phase 1, which offers all four elements of Flying Start, including speech and language, is now complete. We committed to provide 2,500 children with support through the phase 1 expansion of the Flying Start programme. As at the end of March 2023, 3,178 children were offered Flying Start provision—127 per cent of the target committed to. And this included 772 children who had been offered a childcare place.
We began the expansion of phase 2 in April last year, and this phase is focusing specifically on providing Flying Start childcare to more two-year-olds. So, during 2023-24 and 2024-25, we are investing £46 million in expanding Flying Start childcare to support long-term positive impacts on the lives of those children and families across Wales who are facing the greatest challenges. And we expect to support more than 9,500 extra two-year-olds during this phase, and we're absolutely well on track to deliver this. So, we are actually delivering more places here and now. You're talking about what's happening in England in the future, where there's a great deal of doubt about whether it will be able to happen because of the workforce pressures et cetera, but we are actually delivering this now.
And I just must say that, last week, with Siân Gwenllian, I had the privilege of visiting a nursery in a north Wales expansion area, and witnessed at first-hand the importance of high-quality early childhood play, learning and care, which was absolutely inspiring. We saw a pioneering childcare setting, which has adopted the Reggio Emilia approach to early years education. Putting children at the centre, it gives them power and potential to develop and learn from the environment, mostly outdoors, and by using the lessons learned from International Play Iceland, the setting is also committed to the positive development of children through play. And I just think it was one of the most inspiring visits I've had for a long time. And that is happening now in Wales, and Flying Start is being delivered from this setting.
I know the Llywydd is indicating that I have to wind up.
Daw unrhyw arian canlyniadol sy'n dod o Loegr yn ganolog i Lywodraeth Cymru, a bydd y Cabinet yn penderfynu i ble mae'r arian hwnnw'n mynd. Ond nid wyf yn gwybod pam fod gennych obsesiwn gyda'r ffaith nad ydym eisiau dilyn Lloegr. Rydym yn datblygu gofal plant yma yng Nghymru mewn ffordd systematig, ac ni welaf unrhyw reswm pam y dylai unrhyw beth sy'n digwydd yn Lloegr newid y ffordd yr ydym yn datblygu, ac mae gennym gynllun ac rydym yn gweithio tuag at y cynllun hwnnw. Beth bynnag, rwy'n falch iawn o ddweud, drwy'r cytundeb cydweithio, ein bod yn gwneud cynnydd da ac yn cyflawni'r ymrwymiadau a wnaethom.
Ac wrth gwrs, gall darpariaeth gofal plant a ariennir gan y Llywodraeth wneud cyfraniad pwysig at liniaru'r pwysau costau byw y mae teuluoedd yn ei brofi ar hyn o bryd, ac sydd wedi cael sylw yn y ddadl. Mae gofal plant, sy'n elfen bwysig o'r rhaglen Dechrau'n Deg, nid yn unig yn ffordd bwysig o hyrwyddo datblygiad a chyrhaeddiad plant drwy ddarpariaeth o ansawdd uchel, mae'n amlwg y gall fod yn allwedd i gael gwaith. Ac fel y gwyddom i gyd, gwaith yw'r llwybr allan o dlodi, a chredaf fod Joel James a Sarah ill dau wedi sôn am bwysigrwydd menywod yn y sefyllfa honno.
Felly, rydym yn ehangu Dechrau'n Deg mewn camau. Mae cam 1, sy'n cynnig pob un o'r pedair elfen o Dechrau'n Deg, gan gynnwys lleferydd ac iaith, bellach wedi'i gwblhau. Rydym wedi ymrwymo i roi cymorth i 2,500 o blant drwy ehangu cam 1 y rhaglen Dechrau'n Deg. Ar ddiwedd mis Mawrth 2023, cynigiwyd darpariaeth Dechrau'n Deg i 3,178 o blant—127 y cant o'r targed yr ymrwymwyd iddo. Ac roedd hyn yn cynnwys 772 o blant a oedd wedi cael cynnig lle gofal plant.
Dechreuwyd ehangu cam 2 ym mis Ebrill y llynedd, ac mae'r cam hwn yn canolbwyntio'n benodol ar ddarparu gofal plant Dechrau'n Deg i fwy o blant dwy oed. Felly, yn ystod 2023-24 a 2024-25, rydym yn buddsoddi £46 miliwn i ehangu gofal plant Dechrau'n Deg i gefnogi effeithiau cadarnhaol hirdymor ar fywydau plant a theuluoedd ledled Cymru sy'n wynebu'r heriau mwyaf. Ac rydym yn disgwyl cefnogi mwy na 9,500 ychwanegol o blant dwy oed yn ystod y cam hwn, ac rydym ar y trywydd iawn i gyflawni hyn. Felly, rydym yn darparu mwy o leoedd yma nawr. Rydych chi'n siarad am yr hyn sy'n digwydd yn Lloegr yn y dyfodol, lle mae llawer o amheuaeth ynglŷn ag a fydd hynny'n gallu digwydd oherwydd y pwysau ar y gweithlu ac ati, ond rydym ni'n cyflawni hyn nawr.
Ac mae'n rhaid imi ddweud, yr wythnos diwethaf, gyda Siân Gwenllian, cefais y fraint o ymweld â meithrinfa mewn ardal ehangu yng ngogledd Cymru, a gwelais drosof fy hun pa mor bwysig yw chwarae, dysgu a gofal plentyndod cynnar o ansawdd uchel, ac roedd yn gwbl ysbrydoledig. Gwelsom leoliad gofal plant arloesol, sydd wedi mabwysiadu dull Reggio Emilia o weithredu addysg blynyddoedd cynnar. Gan roi plant yn y canol, mae'n rhoi pŵer a photensial iddynt ddatblygu a dysgu o'r amgylchedd, yn yr awyr agored yn bennaf, a thrwy ddefnyddio'r gwersi a ddysgwyd gan International Play Iceland, mae'r lleoliad hefyd wedi ymrwymo i ddatblygiad cadarnhaol plant trwy chwarae. Ac rwy'n credu ei fod yn un o'r ymweliadau mwyaf ysbrydoledig i mi eu cael ers amser maith. Ac mae hynny'n digwydd nawr yng Nghymru, ac mae Dechrau'n Deg yn cael ei ddarparu o'r lleoliad hwn.
Rwy'n gwybod bod y Llywydd yn dynodi bod yn rhaid i mi ddirwyn i ben.
Yes. Even Ministers have the clock ticking against them.
Ydy. Mae'r cloc yn tician ar Weinidogion hyd yn oed.
In conclusion, I think what I was saying then is what I want to end with: that the Welsh Government is delivering this expansion, this high-quality expansion, now, and I don't think we should be thinking all the time, 'How does this compare with England?' What we should be thinking of is, 'How is this happening now?', and working out how we will develop ourselves in the future. Diolch.
I gloi, rwy'n credu mai'r hyn yr oeddwn yn ei ddweud yw'r hyn yr hoffwn orffen gydag ef: fod Llywodraeth Cymru yn cyflawni'r ehangu hwn, ehangu o ansawdd uchel, nawr, ac nid wyf yn credu y dylem fod yn meddwl drwy'r amser, 'Sut mae hyn yn cymharu â Lloegr?' Dylem feddwl, 'Sut mae hyn yn digwydd nawr?', a gweithio i weld sut y gallwn ddatblygu ein hunain yn y dyfodol. Diolch.
Jack Sargeant nawr i ymateb i'r ddadl.
Jack Sargeant now to reply to the debate.
I'm grateful, Presiding Officer. Can I thank the Minister for responding to today's debate and all of those who have contributed? I won't be able to get through them all, Presiding Officer, you'll be pleased to hear, but I'll comment on Joel James, my committee colleague, who started by offering his full support to the petition and also stating that childcare is the biggest single issue for parents with young children in Wales during this cost-of-living crisis. I think that was echoed through the contributions throughout today.
We heard a lot from members of the Equality and Social Justice Committee about their work, and their Chair also spoke. Jane Dodds discussed the link between childcare and child poverty and wanted a refocus on the economic value, and I think Gareth Davies mentioned the same. What this debate has done today, Presiding Officer, is that it has given a clear platform for the Minister and various Welsh Government Ministers to be able to understand the frustrations of parents in Wales. And I think we heard Sarah Murphy suggest that you've had a number of people come to you, not just parents. Peter Fox, you mentioned childcare providers coming to you about the differences and, perhaps, the perceived unfairness of two different offers: one in England, one in Wales. And that's the same for me, with a constituency right on the border region, but also with the Flying Start offer being around the corner on the street.
I know I'm pressed for time, Presiding Officer, but I should say that I'll make an offer to the Minister—. I think what the petitioners will feel is, come April—. And there has been lots of debate about the offer in Wales and England and delivering in Wales and perhaps not so delivering in England—. One of the downsides of politics is, often, that that doesn't reach people in the general public. So, perhaps, as an offer to the Minister, if we could have a detailed written note that we could share with the petitioners—over 11,000 who have signed this petition—we could send to them on that, because I think they will still have questions and they still deserve some clarity on that. The petitioner was quite clear to me—it's important that they get the clarity so that they can understand what's happening in their own democracy. So, if we could follow up on that, that would be great.
I know I am pressed for time, Presiding Officer. I'll just thank everyone again, but thank, more importantly, all the petitioners who signed. I don't think this is going away—I know the Equality and Social Justice Committee will be reviewing childcare and I think the Petitions Committee will have an avid interest in the end of it as well. Diolch.
Diolch, Lywydd. A gaf i ddiolch i'r Gweinidog am ymateb i'r ddadl heddiw a phawb sydd wedi cyfrannu? Lywydd, fe fyddwch yn falch o glywed na fyddaf yn gallu mynd drwyddynt i gyd, ond fe wnaf sylwadau ar Joel James, fy nghyd-aelod o'r pwyllgor, a ddechreuodd drwy gynnig ei gefnogaeth lawn i'r ddeiseb a nodi hefyd mai gofal plant yw'r broblem unigol fwyaf i rieni plant ifanc yng Nghymru yn ystod yr argyfwng costau byw. Rwy'n credu bod hynny wedi cael ei ategu gan y cyfraniadau i gyd heddiw.
Clywsom lawer gan aelodau o'r Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb a Chyfiawnder Cymdeithasol am eu gwaith, a siaradodd eu Cadeirydd hefyd. Trafododd Jane Dodds y cysylltiad rhwng gofal plant a thlodi plant ac roedd eisiau ailffocysu ar y gwerth economaidd, ac rwy'n meddwl bod Gareth Davies wedi sôn am yr un peth. Yr hyn y mae'r ddadl hon wedi'i wneud heddiw, Lywydd, yw rhoi llwyfan clir i'r Gweinidog ac amryw o Weinidogion Llywodraeth Cymru allu deall rhwystredigaethau rhieni yng Nghymru. Ac rwy'n credu inni glywed Sarah Murphy yn awgrymu eich bod chi wedi cael nifer o bobl yn dod atoch, nid rhieni yn unig. Peter Fox, fe sonioch chi am ddarparwyr gofal plant yn dod atoch ynglŷn â'r gwahaniaethau, ac efallai, annhegwch canfyddedig dau gynnig gwahanol: un yn Lloegr, un yng Nghymru. Ac mae hynny yr un fath i minnau, gydag etholaeth yn ardal y ffin, ond hefyd gyda'r cynnig Dechrau'n Deg rownd y gornel ar y stryd.
Rwy'n gwybod bod fy amser yn brin, Lywydd, ond carwn ddweud fy mod am wneud cynnig i'r Gweinidog—. Rwy'n credu mai'r hyn y bydd y deisebwyr yn ei deimlo fis Ebrill—. Ac mae llawer o drafod wedi bod am y cynnig yng Nghymru a Lloegr a’r cyflawni yng Nghymru ac efallai'r diffyg cyflawni yn Lloegr—. Un o anfanteision gwleidyddiaeth yn aml yw nad yw hynny'n cyrraedd y cyhoedd yn gyffredinol. Felly, efallai, fel cynnig i'r Gweinidog, pe gallem gael nodyn ysgrifenedig manwl y gallem ei rannu gyda'r deisebwyr—dros 11,000 sydd wedi llofnodi'r ddeiseb hon—gallem anfon atynt ar hynny, oherwydd rwy'n credu y bydd ganddynt gwestiynau o hyd ac maent yn dal i haeddu eglurder ar hynny. Roedd y deisebydd yn eithaf clir wrthyf—mae'n bwysig eu bod yn cael yr eglurder fel eu bod yn gallu deall beth sy'n digwydd yn eu democratiaeth eu hunain. Felly, os cawn fynd ar drywydd hynny, byddai hynny'n wych.
Rwy'n gwybod bod fy amser yn brin, Lywydd. Rwyf am ddiolch i bawb unwaith eto, ond diolch, yn bwysicach fyth, i'r holl ddeisebwyr a lofnododd. Nid wyf yn meddwl y bydd hyn yn diflannu—rwy'n gwybod y bydd y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb a Chyfiawnder Cymdeithasol yn adolygu gofal plant ac rwy'n credu y bydd gan y Pwyllgor Deisebau ddiddordeb brwd yn yr hyn a ddaw yn y pen draw hefyd. Diolch.
Diolch i Gadeirydd y pwyllgor. Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid nodi'r deisebau? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Nac oes. Felly, mae hynna wedi'i gymeradwyo.
I thank the committee Chair. The proposal is to note the petitions. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the proposal is agreed.
Derbyniwyd y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.
Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.
Mae eitem 10 wedi'i gohirio.
Item 10 is postponed.
Felly, eitem 11 sydd nesaf, sef dadl ar adroddiad y pwyllgor diwylliant ar 'Y tu ôl i'r llenni: Gweithlu'r diwydiannau creadigol'. Cadeirydd y pwyllgor i gyflwyno'r ddadl yma—Delyth Jewell.
So, we'll move to item 11: debate on the culture committee's report, 'Behind the scenes: The creative industries workforce'. The committee Chair to present the debate—Delyth Jewell.
Cynnig NDM8458 Delyth Jewell
Cynnig bod y Senedd:
Yn nodi adroddiad y Pwyllgor Diwylliant, Cyfathrebu, y Gymraeg, Chwaraeon, a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol ‘Y tu ôl i’r llenni: Gweithlu’r diwydiannau creadigol’, a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 18 Hydref 2023.
Motion NDM8458 Delyth Jewell
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the report of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee ‘Behind the scenes: The creative industries workforce’, which was laid in the Table Office on 18 October 2023.
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
Diolch, Llywydd. Diolch am y cyfle i gynnal y ddadl hon heddiw ar adroddiad y pwyllgor, 'Y tu ôl i'r llenni: Gweithlu'r diwydiannau creadigol'. Buaswn i'n hoffi diolch i'r tîm pwyllgor, fel arfer, am eu gwaith sydd mor bwysig i'r pwyllgor.
Mae Cymru wedi sefydlu ei hun fel canolfan flaenllaw ar gyfer y diwydiannau creadigol yn y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae’r sector yn darparu dros 80,000 o swyddi ac oddeutu £4 biliwn yw ei drosiant blynyddol. Mae hyn werth dros 5 y cant o GDP Cymreig. Mae’n wir yn un o bwerdai economi Cymru ac mae’n gyflawniad y dylai pob un ohonom ni ymfalchïo ynddo. Er gwaethaf y ffyniant yn y diwydiant yng Nghymru, mae wedi bod yn amlwg bod y diwydiannau creadigol, serch hynny, yn stori am ddau ddiwydiant creadigol, mewn gwirionedd.
Thank you, Llywydd. Thank you for the opportunity to hold this debate today on the committee's report, 'Behind the scenes: The creative industries workforce'. I'd like to thank the committee team, as usual, for its work, which is so important for the committee's own work.
Wales has established itself as a prominent centre for the creative industries in the United Kingdom. The sector sustains over 80,000 jobs and has an annual turnover of around £4 billion. This is worth over 5 per cent of Wales's GDP. It truly is one of the powerhouses of Wales's economy and it is an achievement in which all of us should take pride. Despite the vibrant nature of the industry in Wales, it has become clear that the story of the creative industries is a tale of two industries, if truth be told.
I'd like to place here my tribute to our researcher Robin Wilkinson, whose excellent blog on this issue puts this as 'a tale of two industries'. And as he says, it is, in many ways, you could say, both the best and worst of times for the sector.
Hoffwn dalu teyrnged yma i'n hymchwilydd Robin Wilkinson, y mae ei flog rhagorol ar y mater hwn yn ei ddisgrifio fel 'stori dau ddiwydiant'. Ac fel y mae'n dweud, mewn sawl ffordd, fe allech ddweud ei bod hi'r adeg orau a'r adeg waethaf ar y sector.
Mae rhan gyntaf y diwydiannau creadigol yn llwyddiant go iawn. Mae’r sector sgrin yng Nghymru, fel dywedodd yr Athro Justin Lewis o Brifysgol Caerdydd,
The first part of the tale of the creative industries is a real success story. The screen sector in Wales, as we were told by Professor Justin Lewis from Cardiff University,
'is a huge success story',
with Wales
'seen as a kind of global powerhouse in the UK'.
'mae'n stori lwyddiant enfawr',
gyda Chymru
'yn cael ei hystyried yn fath o bwerdy byd-eang yn y DU'.
Mae’r sector sgrin yng Nghymru, cyn ac ar ôl pandemig COVID-19, wedi tyfu’n sylweddol. Mae hyn yn darparu digon o gyfleoedd gwaith. Nawr, mewn gwrthgyferbyniad llwyr, mae rhannau eraill o’r diwydiannau creadigol yn ei chael hi’n anodd uffernol. Nid yw’r sectorau celfyddydau, diwylliant a cherddoriaeth wedi adfer yn llawn ers y pandemig.
Eto, dywedodd yr Athro Justin Lewis wrthym, er enghraifft:
The screen sector in Wales, pre and post the COVID-19 pandemic, has seen significant growth. This provides plenty of job opportunities. Now, by contrast, other parts of the creative industries are struggling a great deal. The arts, culture and music sectors still haven’t fully recovered from the pandemic.
Again, Professor Justin Lewis told us, for example:
'all the underlying trends in the music industry are bad.'
'mae'r holl dueddiadau gwaelodol yn y diwydiant cerddoriaeth yn wael.'
Mae wedi cael ei adrodd droeon, Llywydd, fod adferiad yn y sectorau celfyddydau, diwylliant a cherddoriaeth wedi cael ei rwystro gan gostau ynni a chynulleidfaoedd yn dychwelyd yn araf ers y pandemig. Nawr, yn anffodus, mae’r cymorth ychwanegol a ddarparwyd gan Lywodraeth Cymru i’r sectorau hyn, er ei fod i’w groesawu, wedi’i amsugno gan lefelau chwyddiant uwch nag erioed.
It has been said time and time again, Llywydd, that recovery in the arts, culture and music sectors has been prevented by high energy costs and the slow return of audiences following the pandemic. Now, unfortunately, the additional support provided by the Welsh Government for these sectors, although welcome, has been absorbed by higher than ever levels of inflation.
In our report, we set out a number of recommendations, including building on the positive interventions to date, like well-being facilitators to tackle bullying and inappropriate behaviour in the creative industries, a longer term approach to funding and planning skills development, and ensuring there's good-quality and timely data available to understand equality, diversity and inclusion within the creative industries workforce.
Now, we welcome the Welsh Government’s acceptance of a number of our recommendations, including how the Government is co-ordinating initiatives to ensure sufficient Welsh language skills in the creative industries, working with unions and production companies to identify best practice to ensure workers can work in environments that are free from discrimination, prejudice and bullying, and providing longer term funded support for skills development in the creative industries. We are confident that these actions will help tackle some of the issues we have identified in our inquiry.
The recommendations put forward, though, need to be implemented together if we are to ensure the creative industries in Wales can grow in a sustainable way that is fair to all who work in them. It is a disappointment, Llywydd, that the Welsh Government rejected outright our recommendation that the forthcoming culture strategy should set out support for developing and sustaining the workforce in the arts and music sectors. The arts and culture sectors are crying out for strategic direction. As far back as 2021, the Welsh Government committed to introducing a new culture strategy for Wales. Nearly three years later, some parts of the creative industries in Wales are in crisis—and I don't use that word lightly. We have repeatedly asked when that strategy will be ready. Only last week, during draft budget scrutiny, the Deputy Minister told the committee, and I'm quoting her words here:
'our initial projection of this taking about six months was wildly optimistic. And so that was the primary reason for that—the need to get this right and to consult all of the right people.'
Of course we need to get this right, and we do recognise that, certainly. The Welsh Government also rejected our calls for the culture strategy to include provisions on fair pay and working conditions. The Deputy Minister told us during our evidence session that:
'Within that cultural strategy I would expect very much that expectations will be set out very clearly about what cultural organisations look like in Wales and how they employ staff, and what their working conditions are like'.
So, we were disappointed that that recommendation was rejected. We accept the need to get this strategy right and to consult properly, as I've said, but it has been a number of years in the making, of course. In that time, the music, performing arts, theatres, museums and galleries, they are in a bad place. You only have to see the draft budget settlements to understand that. And things, we fear, are going to get worse for a number of organisations over the next year or two, given the financial climate. And yet there is still no strategy or policy direction on what support will be available for these sectors.
Now, the Welsh Government had also rejected our recommendation to review what additional resource is required by the arts, culture and music sectors to achieve equitable pay settlements and outline what additional support they can provide. We heard evidence that those working in the screen sector, like film and television, can earn good wages. But we also heard that the music, arts and culture sectors are struggling to retain staff because of pay. National Youth Arts Wales told us that trying to keep up with pay increases in the short term is requiring organisations to dip into reserves or funding allocated to long-term development. A number of interviewees also told us that live work, like live music or theatre, is underpaid and unstable compared with the screen sector. In response, the Welsh Government told us that, and again I'm quoting:
'We and our partners are aware of the issues we collectively face in seeking to improve pay, terms and conditions and the specific challenges in respect of freelancers. We do not believe that an additional review would add value or improve our understanding of the issues, barriers and opportunities.'
As I've outlined, the arts, culture and music sectors are in a real predicament. If they are unable to recruit and retain staff competitively, the next few years are going to be much more challenging for them. But it is not all doom and gloom, Llywydd. The Welsh Government did agree with the committee on the need to take measures to futureproof the growth in the creative industries. Stakeholders, including S4C and ITV Cymru, called for more training, while Tom Ware of the University of South Wales said the current problem was that training was 'short-termist' in approach. Ffilm Cymru told us that there need to be more 'people at all levels', while production company Bad Wolf said that shortages in the workforce mean that they are struggling to keep up with demand. In that regard, we welcome the Welsh Government's acceptance of a number of recommendations that will put in place measures to ensure that there is sufficient talent as a pipeline to keep the creative industries strong in Wales. That includes placing skills planning and funding on a longer term footing, as well as raising awareness of the job opportunities available to young people in the creative industries.
Yn ein hadroddiad, fe wnaethom nodi nifer o argymhellion, gan gynnwys adeiladu ar yr ymyriadau cadarnhaol hyd yn hyn, fel hwyluswyr llesiant i fynd i'r afael â bwlio ac ymddygiad amhriodol yn y diwydiannau creadigol, dull mwy hirdymor o ariannu a datblygu sgiliau cynllunio, a sicrhau bod data amserol o ansawdd da ar gael i ddeall cydraddoldeb, amrywiaeth a chynhwysiant yng ngweithlu'r diwydiannau creadigol.
Nawr, rydym yn croesawu'r ffaith bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi derbyn nifer o'n hargymhellion, gan gynnwys y ffordd y mae'r Llywodraeth yn cydlynu mentrau i sicrhau digon o sgiliau Cymraeg yn y diwydiannau creadigol, gan weithio gydag undebau a chwmnïau cynhyrchu i nodi arferion gorau er mwyn sicrhau y gall gweithwyr weithio mewn amgylcheddau sy'n rhydd o wahaniaethu, rhagfarn a bwlio, a darparu cymorth a ariennir yn fwy hirdymor ar gyfer datblygu sgiliau yn y diwydiannau creadigol. Rydym yn hyderus y bydd y camau hyn yn helpu i fynd i'r afael â rhai o'r materion a nodwyd gennym yn ein hymchwiliad.
Fodd bynnag, mae angen gweithredu'r argymhellion a gyflwynwyd gyda'i gilydd os ydym am sicrhau y gall y diwydiannau creadigol yng Nghymru dyfu mewn ffordd gynaliadwy sy'n deg i bawb sy'n gweithio ynddynt. Mae'n siomedig, Lywydd, fod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gwrthod yn llwyr ein hargymhelliad y dylai'r strategaeth ddiwylliant sydd ar y ffordd nodi cefnogaeth i ddatblygu a chynnal y gweithlu yn y sector celfyddydau a'r sector cerddoriaeth. Mae'r sector celfyddydau a'r sector diwylliant yn crefu am gyfeiriad strategol. Mor bell yn ôl â 2021, ymrwymodd Llywodraeth Cymru i gyflwyno strategaeth ddiwylliant newydd i Gymru. Bron i dair blynedd yn ddiweddarach, mae rhai rhannau o'r diwydiannau creadigol yng Nghymru mewn argyfwng—ac nid wyf yn defnyddio'r gair hwnnw'n ysgafn. Rydym wedi gofyn dro ar ôl tro pryd y bydd y strategaeth honno'n barod. Yr wythnos diwethaf, wrth graffu ar y gyllideb ddrafft, dywedodd y Dirprwy Weinidog wrth y pwyllgor, ac rwy'n dyfynnu ei geiriau yma:
'roedd ein rhagamcan cychwynnol y byddai hyn yn cymryd tua chwe mis yn hynod optimistaidd. Ac felly dyna oedd y prif reswm am hynny—yr angen i gael hyn yn iawn ac i ymgynghori â'r holl bobl iawn.'
Wrth gwrs bod angen inni wneud hyn yn iawn, ac rydym yn cydnabod hynny. Hefyd, gwrthododd Llywodraeth Cymru ein galwadau am i'r strategaeth ddiwylliant gynnwys darpariaethau ar gyflog ac amodau gwaith teg. Dywedodd y Dirprwy Weinidog wrthym yn ystod ein sesiwn dystiolaeth:
'O fewn y strategaeth ddiwylliannol buaswn yn disgwyl yn bendant iawn y bydd disgwyliadau'n cael eu gosod yn glir iawn ynglŷn â sut olwg sydd ar sefydliadau diwylliannol yng Nghymru a sut maent yn cyflogi staff, a beth yw eu hamodau gwaith'.
Felly, roeddem yn siomedig fod yr argymhelliad hwnnw wedi'i wrthod. Rydym yn derbyn yr angen i gael y strategaeth hon yn iawn ac i ymgynghori'n briodol, fel y dywedais, ond mae wedi cymryd nifer o flynyddoedd i'w llunio. Yn y cyfnod hwnnw, mae cerddoriaeth, y celfyddydau perfformio, theatrau, amgueddfeydd ac orielau mewn sefyllfa wael. Dim ond gweld setliadau'r gyllideb ddrafft sydd ei angen i ddeall hynny. Ac ofnwn fod pethau'n mynd i waethygu i nifer o sefydliadau dros y flwyddyn neu ddwy nesaf, o ystyried yr hinsawdd ariannol. Ac eto nid oes strategaeth na chyfeiriad pholisi o hyd ynglŷn â pha gymorth a fydd ar gael i'r sectorau hyn.
Nawr, roedd Llywodraeth Cymru hefyd wedi gwrthod ein hargymhelliad i adolygu pa adnodd ychwanegol sydd ei angen ar y sector celfyddydau, y sector diwylliant a'r sector cerddoriaeth i sicrhau setliadau cyflog teg ac amlinellu pa gymorth ychwanegol y gallant ei ddarparu. Clywsom dystiolaeth fod y rhai sy'n gweithio yn y sector sgrin, fel ffilm a theledu, yn gallu ennill cyflogau da. Ond clywsom hefyd fod y sector cerddoriaeth, y sector celfyddydau a'r sector diwylliant yn ei chael hi'n anodd cadw staff oherwydd cyflogau. Dywedodd Celfyddydau Cenedlaethol Ieuenctid Cymru wrthym fod ceisio cadw i fyny â chynnydd cyflogau yn y tymor byr yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i sefydliadau droi at gronfeydd wrth gefn neu gyllid a ddyrannwyd ar gyfer datblygu hirdymor. Dywedodd nifer o'r rhai a gyfwelwyd wrthym hefyd fod tâl am waith byw, fel cerddoriaeth fyw neu theatr, yn rhy isel ac yn ansefydlog o'i gymharu â'r sector sgrin. Wrth ymateb, dywedodd Llywodraeth Cymru wrthym:
'Rydym ni a'n partneriaid yn ymwybodol o'r problemau sy'n ein hwynebu gyda'n gilydd wrth geisio gwella cyflogau, telerau ac amodau a'r heriau penodol o ran gweithwyr llawrydd. Nid ydym yn credu y byddai adolygiad ychwanegol yn ychwanegu gwerth nac yn gwella ein dealltwriaeth o'r problemau, y rhwystrau a'r cyfleoedd.'
Fel y nodais, mae'r sector celfyddydau, y sector diwylliant a'r sector cerddoriaeth mewn sefyllfa wirioneddol anodd. Os na allant recriwtio a chadw staff yn gystadleuol, bydd y blynyddoedd nesaf yn llawer mwy heriol iddynt. Ond nid yw'r cyfan yn anobeithiol, Lywydd. Roedd Llywodraeth Cymru yn cytuno â'r pwyllgor ynghylch yr angen i roi mesurau ar waith i ddiogelu'r twf yn y diwydiannau creadigol ar gyfer y dyfodol. Galwodd rhanddeiliaid, gan gynnwys S4C ac ITV Cymru, am fwy o hyfforddiant, ac roedd Tom Ware o Brifysgol De Cymru yn dweud mai'r broblem ar hyn o bryd oedd bod y dull o weithredu hyfforddiant yn 'fyrdymor'. Dywedodd Ffilm Cymru wrthym fod angen mwy o 'bobl ar bob lefel', a nododd y cwmni cynhyrchu Bad Wolf fod prinder yn y gweithlu yn golygu eu bod yn cael trafferth cadw i fyny â'r galw. Yn hynny o beth, rydym yn croesawu'r ffaith bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi derbyn nifer o argymhellion a fydd yn rhoi mesurau ar waith i sicrhau bod digon o lif o dalent i gadw'r diwydiannau creadigol yn gryf yng Nghymru. Mae hynny'n cynnwys rhoi cynlluniau sgiliau a chyllid ar sail fwy hirdymor, yn ogystal â chodi ymwybyddiaeth o'r cyfleoedd gwaith sydd ar gael i bobl ifanc yn y diwydiannau creadigol.
Nawr, rwy'n edrych ymlaen at glywed beth sydd gan Aelodau eraill i'w ddweud yn y ddadl hon, ac eto rŷn ni'n ddiolchgar iawn am yr amser i drafod cynnwys ein hymchwiliad yn y Senedd. Diolch.
Now, I look forward to hearing what other Members have to say in this debate, and again we're very grateful for the time allocated to this discussion on the content of our inquiry. Thank you.
Can I thank the Chair of the committee, Delyth Jewell, for bringing this report to the floor of the Senedd and all members of the committee and the clerking team for their hard work during this process?
The creative industries in Wales are formed by a rich variety of individuals, organisations, companies and charities. Their combined work plays a vital role in enriching our Welsh culture, heritage and future development, and contributes massively to our Welsh economy, bringing in an annual turnover of £4 billion every year. It's important we recognise the importance of creative industries and the role they play in Wales, and their work is something to be celebrated. But there are difficulties in the sector, especially post pandemic, and it's worrying that the Welsh Government have decided not to incorporate in its culture strategy—and, by the way, as Delyth Jewell mentioned, that is delayed—ambitions for the development and sustainability of the arts and music sectors.
Whilst the Welsh Government have rejected three out of the 13 recommendations, I welcome the acceptance, or partial acceptance in some cases, of the remaining 10. It's positive to see commitments to ensuring sufficient Welsh language skills in the sector and to increase awareness of opportunities for younger people in the sector. It's important that young people wanting to get into the creative industries sector have the opportunity to break into these careers, with the option of both Welsh and English language skills. It's especially important given the findings of this committee's report into a lack of experience in the sector, which has been caused by serious concern for the sector. Some interviewees said, quote,
'it feels like we've gone back ten years'.
The sector suffered massively post pandemic through workforce issues, pay and working conditions, offers of work, opportunities for recruiting and upskilling, and many other issues. And that's especially true of freelance workers. Half of workers lost 80 per cent of their work in 2021, and 57 per cent stopped investing in new equipment.
Cost-of-living issues have also hit the sector hard. Music Venue Trust stated that costs rose 300 per cent across their membership, and this has left the music sector in an uncertain position; 56 per cent of organisations stated that they were very or extremely worried about the pressures that rising costs bring.
The Welsh Government noted unprecedented levels of growth for the sector, which is very promising post pandemic, but that has led to a shortage of staff in the sector, and is something that needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency. The Welsh Government, as stated in the report, must do more to increase the work and experience opportunities for those both in and looking to become a part of these sectors. These shortages are being felt right across the sector. Creative Wales, for example, is a small team, which, in the words of Nia Britton, does 'excellent work' whilst combating the difficult issues faced by the sector.
But difficulties faced by the sector are only exacerbated because of the sluggish development of the Welsh Government's cultural strategy. Industries are facing uncertainty in multiple domains and, still three years on, we're still waiting for the Welsh Government to publish that strategy. And those three years could have been spent helping the sectors that the Deputy Minister is responsible for. It's concerning to me that the Deputy Minister knew the delay in developing the strategy was, quote:
'Basically because of the amount of work that's been involved in it.'
Yet she's done very little, in my view, to expedite that process. It's concerning that the Welsh Government strategy was put on the backburner and, as such, the concerns and the needs of the sector were too.
Nevertheless, there's been some positive news, however, with Bad Wolf saying that they were the busiest that they have ever been. I also welcome the Welsh Government's gaming incubator programme to promote the commerciality of established companies, and look forward to the findings of that pilot. And it's also promising for the gaming industry that the Welsh Government is in talks with Esports Wales regarding an opportunity to host or develop an esports event here in Wales.
The work carried out by the sector and the projects they deliver are the ones that we should be proud of. Looking to the future then, we should be focusing on sustaining growth in some areas, securing growth in others, and, in particular, I think, staying up to date with technological advancements in the sector so that we capitalise on its potential so that we can be at its forefront. Training and upskilling must be chief amongst the things that we do, and not being reactive, as Delyth Jewell mentioned, to short-term needs, as we heard from various sectors. This is one of the most important considerations for future development of the sector, but it can't happen with the current proposed cuts in apprenticeship funding. To ensure the sustainable future of the Welsh creative industries, we need to work with those in the sector to achieve this and ensure that young people especially have opportunities for long and prosperous careers in a thriving sector. Diolch.
A gaf i ddiolch i Gadeirydd y pwyllgor, Delyth Jewell, am ddod â'r adroddiad hwn i lawr y Senedd a holl aelodau'r pwyllgor a'r tîm clercio am eu gwaith caled yn ystod y broses hon?
Mae'r diwydiannau creadigol yng Nghymru wedi eu ffurfio gan amrywiaeth gyfoethog o unigolion, sefydliadau, cwmnïau ac elusennau. Mae eu gwaith cyfunol yn chwarae rhan hanfodol yn cyfoethogi ein diwylliant, ein treftadaeth a datblygiad Cymru yn y dyfodol, ac yn cyfrannu'n aruthrol at economi Cymru, gan ddod â throsiant blynyddol o £4 biliwn i mewn bob blwyddyn. Mae'n bwysig ein bod yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd y diwydiannau creadigol a'r rôl y maent yn ei chwarae yng Nghymru, ac mae eu gwaith yn rhywbeth i'w ddathlu. Ond mae anawsterau yn y sector, yn enwedig ar ôl y pandemig, ac mae'n peri pryder fod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi penderfynu peidio ag ymgorffori yn ei strategaeth ddiwylliant—a chyda llaw, fel y soniodd Delyth Jewell, mae honno ar ei hôl hi—uchelgeisiau ar gyfer datblygiad a chynaliadwyedd y sector celfyddydau a'r sector cerddoriaeth.
Er bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gwrthod tri o'r 13 argymhelliad, rwy'n croesawu'r ffaith ei bod wedi derbyn, neu dderbyn yn rhannol mewn rhai achosion, y 10 sy'n weddill. Mae'n gadarnhaol gweld ymrwymiadau i sicrhau digon o sgiliau iaith Gymraeg yn y sector a chynyddu ymwybyddiaeth o gyfleoedd i bobl iau. Mae'n bwysig fod pobl ifanc sydd am ymuno â'r sector diwydiannau creadigol yn cael cyfle i dorri i mewn i'r gyrfaoedd hyn, gyda'r opsiwn o sgiliau Cymraeg a Saesneg fel ei gilydd. Mae'n arbennig o bwysig o ystyried canfyddiadau adroddiad y pwyllgor i ddiffyg profiad yn y sector, a achosodd bryder difrifol i'r sector. Dywedodd rhai o'r bobl a gyfwelwyd,
'mae'n teimlo fel pe baem wedi mynd yn ôl ddeng mlynedd'.
Dioddefodd y sector yn aruthrol ar ôl y pandemig yn sgil problemau'n gysylltiedig â'r gweithlu, cyflogau ac amodau gwaith, cynigion gwaith, cyfleoedd i recriwtio ac uwchsgilio, a llawer o bethau eraill. Ac mae hynny'n arbennig o wir am weithwyr llawrydd. Collodd hanner y gweithwyr 80 y cant o'u gwaith yn 2021, a rhoddodd 57 y cant y gorau i fuddsoddi mewn offer newydd.
Mae materion costau byw hefyd wedi taro'r sector yn galed. Dywedodd yr Ymddiriedolaeth Lleoliadau Cerddoriaeth fod costau wedi codi 300 y cant ar draws eu haelodau, ac mae hyn wedi gadael y sector cerddoriaeth mewn sefyllfa ansicr; dywedodd 56 y cant o sefydliadau eu bod yn bryderus iawn neu'n eithriadol o bryderus am y pwysau a ddaw yn sgil costau cynyddol.
Nododd Llywodraeth Cymru lefelau digynsail o dwf i'r sector, sy'n addawol iawn ar ôl y pandemig, ond mae hynny wedi arwain at brinder staff yn y sector, ac mae'n rhywbeth y mae angen mynd i'r afael ag ef ar frys. Rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru, fel y noda'r adroddiad, wneud mwy i gynyddu'r cyfleoedd gwaith a phrofiad i'r rhai yn y sectorau hyn a'r rhai sy'n ystyried dod yn rhan ohonynt. Mae'r prinder i'w deimlo ar draws y sector. Mae Cymru Greadigol, er enghraifft, yn dîm bach, sydd, yng ngeiriau Nia Britton, yn gwneud 'gwaith rhagorol' ar fynd i'r afael â'r materion anodd sy'n wynebu'r sector.
Ond gwaethygir yr anawsterau y mae'r sector yn eu hwynebu oherwydd arafwch y gwaith o ddatblygu strategaeth ddiwylliannol Llywodraeth Cymru. Mae diwydiannau'n wynebu ansicrwydd mewn sawl maes, a thair blynedd yn ddiweddarach, rydym yn dal i aros i Lywodraeth Cymru gyhoeddi'r strategaeth honno. A gallai'r tair blynedd hynny fod wedi cael eu treulio'n helpu'r sectorau y mae'r Dirprwy Weinidog yn gyfrifol amdanynt. Mae'n peri pryder i mi fod y Dirprwy Weinidog yn gwybod bod yr oedi wrth ddatblygu'r strategaeth:
'Oherwydd faint o waith sydd wedi bod ynghlwm wrthi yn y bôn.'
Eto i gyd, ychydig iawn y mae hi wedi'i wneud, yn fy marn i, i gyflymu'r broses honno. Mae'n destun pryder fod gwaith wedi arafu ar strategaeth Llywodraeth Cymru ac o'r herwydd, fod gwaith wedi arafu ar bryderon ac anghenion y sector hefyd.
Serch hynny, mae yna newyddion cadarnhaol wedi bod, fodd bynnag, gyda Bad Wolf yn dweud eu bod yn fwy prysur nag y buont erioed. Rwyf hefyd yn croesawu rhaglen hybu gemau cyfrifiadurol Llywodraeth Cymru i hyrwyddo masnachadwyedd cwmnïau sefydledig, ac edrychaf ymlaen at ganfyddiadau'r cynllun peilot hwnnw. Ac mae hefyd yn addawol i'r diwydiant gemau cyfrifiadurol fod Llywodraeth Cymru mewn trafodaethau gydag Esports Cymru ynglŷn â chyfle i gynnal neu ddatblygu digwyddiad e-chwaraeon yma yng Nghymru.
Dylem fod yn falch o'r gwaith a wneir gan y sector a'r prosiectau y maent yn eu cyflawni. Wrth edrych i'r dyfodol felly, dylem ganolbwyntio ar gynnal twf mewn rhai meysydd, sicrhau twf mewn meysydd eraill, ac yn fwyaf arbennig, rwy'n credu, dylem sicrhau ein bod yn cael yr wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am ddatblygiadau technolegol yn y sector fel y gallwn fanteisio ar ei botensial a bod ar y blaen. Rhaid i hyfforddiant ac uwchsgilio fod ymhlith y prif bethau a wnawn, a pheidio â bod yn adweithiol, fel y soniodd Delyth Jewell, i anghenion tymor byr, fel y clywsom gan wahanol sectorau. Dyma un o'r ystyriaethau pwysicaf ar gyfer datblygu'r sector yn y dyfodol, ond ni all ddigwydd gyda'r toriadau arfaethedig presennol yn y cyllid i brentisiaethau. Er mwyn sicrhau dyfodol cynaliadwy i ddiwydiannau creadigol Cymru, mae angen inni weithio gyda'r bobl yn y sector i gyflawni hyn a sicrhau bod pobl ifanc yn enwedig yn cael cyfleoedd ar gyfer gyrfaoedd hir a llewyrchus mewn sector ffyniannus. Diolch.
Gaf i ddechrau drwy ddiolch i'r Cadeirydd am amlinellu gwaith y pwyllgor yn wych ar y dechrau fan hyn? Mi oeddwn i'n ddigon lwcus i fod yn rhan o'r pwyllgor pan oedd y gwaith hwn yn mynd rhagddo, ac mi oedd o’n ymchwiliad oedd nid yn unig diddorol ond pwysig yn fy marn i, oherwydd, wedi’r cyfan, mae'r diwydiannau creadigol a'u twf yn eithriadol o bwysig o ran dyfodol economi Cymru. Wn i ddim faint o ddisgyblion ysgol dwi'n eu cyfarfod ar y funud—gamers, YouTubers, dyma’r math o ddiwydiannau maen nhw'n ysu i fynd iddyn nhw. Rydyn ni'n gweld ar y cyfryngau cymdeithasol bod plant yn ein hysgolion ni yn dysgu am godio, yr holl sgiliau pwysig yma. Dyma ydy'r dyfodol, ac mae o'n rhan annatod o'n dyfodol ni fel cenedl, a dwi'n meddwl mi oedd yna nifer o bethau, fel yr amlinellwyd eisoes, sydd yn gyffrous sy'n digwydd yma, ond hefyd rydym ni yn gweld rhwystrau sydd yn atal y twf yna, yn atal Cymru rhag cymryd mantais o'r holl gyfleoedd yma, sy'n golygu ein bod ni'n colli allan, a hefyd nad ydym ni yn sicrhau bod yr holl bobl a allai fod yn gweithio yn y maes yma yn gallu cael y cyfle i wneud hynny.
Roeddwn i'n falch iawn o weld y Llywodraeth yn derbyn argymhelliad 2 o ran datblygu'r Gymraeg ar draws y sector creadigol. Mi oedd y dystiolaeth glywsom ni gan S4C yn arbennig o bwysig yn y fan yna, a'r diffyg sydd yna o ran y sgiliau cyfrwng Cymraeg, oherwydd, wedi'r cyfan, rydym ni'n trafod yn aml rhai o'r problemau sydd o ran tlodi gwledig neu'r diffyg swyddi da ledled Cymru—wel, mae yna swyddi da iawn o ran y diwydiannau creadigol, ac mae'r ffaith eich bod chi'n gallu gwneud nifer o'r swyddi yma o unrhyw le yng Nghymru, dydy o ddim yn gorfod bod yma yng Nghaerdydd ac ati, ond gallu bod unrhyw le, yn eithriadol o bwysig.
Un o'r pethau dwi innau yn rhannu pryder amdano ydy'r diffyg gan y Llywodraeth i dderbyn yr argymhellion o ran y strategaeth ddiwylliant. Dwi'n pryderu'n fawr ein bod ni'n gweld y sector yma ar wahân i ddiwylliant, oherwydd mae'r cysylltiad yna yn gyfan gwbl ynghlwm, a dwi'n meddwl, os nad ydy o'n mynd i fod yn strategaeth ddiwylliant, lle mae'r strategaeth yn mynd i fod ar gyfer y sector yma?
Roeddwn i'n pryderu hefyd, o ran argymhelliad 11 yn cael ei wrthod, a oedd ynglŷn â rôl cyngor y celfyddydau ynglŷn â gwneud asesiad brys o iechyd ariannol lleoliadau celfyddydol, nad ydy'r Llywodraeth yn cymryd unrhyw fath o gyfrifoldeb o ran hynny ac yn dweud ei fod o'n fater i'r cyngor celfyddydau. Wel, mae'r cyngor celfyddydau yn derbyn arian gan Lywodraeth Cymru; mae yna remit letter blynyddol yn mynd i gyngor y celfyddydau, felly mae'r Llywodraeth yn gallu dweud wrth gyngor y celfyddydau yr hyn mae'n ei ddisgwyl er mwyn cefnogi'r gwaith mwy strategol yma, felly dwi ddim yn derbyn yr ymateb hwnnw a byddwn i'n hoffi deall gan y Gweinidog, efallai, pam mae yna wrthwynebiad i hynny, ynghyd, wrth gwrs, â'r ffaith lle bydd y strategaeth ar gyfer y sector hwn.
Mae eisoes wedi bod sôn mi glywsom ni nôl ym mis Hydref, wrth gymryd tystiolaeth, ynglŷn â'r sefyllfa argyfyngus ar lawr gwlad. Dwi'n siŵr bod chithau, nifer o Aelodau, fel finnau, yn derbyn gwaith achos gan nifer o leoliadau sydd yn pryderu'n aruthrol oherwydd y cynnydd sydd wedi bod mewn costau ynni, y diffyg sydd o ran gallu i recriwtio staff ac ati, ac mae hyn yn mynd i fod yn broblem ddybryd, oherwydd, nifer o'r lleoliadau yma, maen nhw'n bwysig iawn o ran ein cymunedau ni, o ran, yn sgil COVID, dod â phobl ynghyd, taclo'r holl unigrwydd sydd o fewn ein cymunedau ni hefyd, ac mae hyn ledled Cymru, heb sôn am yr effaith ar yr economi leol. Felly, dwi'n pryderu nad ydym ni, efallai, yn cysylltu hyn â'r pethau sydd eu hangen o ran datblygu'r economi, cefnogi cymunedau y tu hwnt i'r hyn rydym ni'n ei weld mewn rhai strategaethau neu ymyraethau.
Felly, diolch i bawb wnaeth roi o'u hamser i gyflwyno'r dystiolaeth i ni. Dwi'n siŵr y byddan nhw'n teimlo'n rhwystredig o weld dydy rhai o'r argymhellion yma ddim wedi cael eu derbyn rŵan, a dwi'n meddwl yr hyn y byddwn i'n hoffi'i glywed gan y Dirprwy Weinidog wrth iddi ymateb ydy: beth fydd y gefnogaeth i'r rhai sydd yn wynebu cau lawr ar y funud, neu ddim yn mynd i allu parhau, a sicrhau eu bod nhw'n gallu datblygu busnesau, oherwydd y sefyllfa argyfyngus sydd ohoni? Ac, fel roeddwn i'n dweud gynnau, lle fydd y strategaeth? Byddwn i'n annog y Llywodraeth i ailystyried datgysylltu'r diwydiannau creadigol o'r strategaeth ddiwylliant. Dwi'n meddwl bod yn rhaid iddyn nhw ddod ynghlwm, a gan ein bod ni'n gweld bod y strategaeth yna'n dal i fynd rhagddo, gawn ni weld y Llywodraeth efallai yn ailfeddwl yr approach yna ac yn sicrhau bod y diwydiannau creadigol yn greiddiol i ddyfodol strategaeth ddiwylliannol Cymru?
May I start by thanking the Chair for outlining the work of the committee superbly at the beginning of this debate? I was fortunate enough to be a member of the committee when this work was ongoing, and it was an inquiry that was not only interesting but also important in my view, because, after all, the creative industries and the growth in those industries are extremely important in terms of the Welsh economy. I don't know how many school pupils I meet—they're all gamers, YouTubers; these are the kinds of industries that they're itching to get into. We see on social media that children in our schools learn coding, all of these important skills. This is the future, and it's an integral part of our future as a nation. I do think that there were a number of things, as has already been highlighted, that are exciting happening in Wales, but we're also seeing barriers that are preventing that growth and preventing Wales from taking advantage of all of these opportunities, which means that we're missing out, and also that we're not ensuring that all the people who could be working in this field have the opportunity to do so.
I was very pleased to see the Government accepting recommendation 2 in terms of developing the Welsh language across the creative industries. The evidence that we heard from S4C was particularly important in that regard in terms of the absence of Welsh-medium skills, because, after all, we often discuss the problems in terms of rural poverty or the shortage of good jobs around Wales—well, there are excellent jobs in the creative industries, and the fact that you can do many of these roles from anywhere in Wales, and it doesn't have to be centred here in Cardiff, but can be anywhere in Wales, is extremely important.
One of the things that I have concerns about is the Government's unwillingness to accept the recommendations in terms of the culture strategy. I am very concerned that we're seeing this sector as being separate to culture, because that link is integral, and, if it isn't going to be in the culture strategy, where will the strategy sit for this sector?
I was also concerned, in terms of recommendation 11 being rejected, which covered the role of the Arts Council of Wales in carrying out an urgent assessment of the financial health of arts venues, that the Government isn't taking any sort of responsibility for that and saying that it is a matter for the arts council. Well, the arts council is funded by Welsh Government; they have an annual remit letter, so the Government can instruct the arts council in terms of what it expects in terms of this strategic work, so I don't accept that and I would like to understand from the Minister why they have not accepted that recommendation, and I would ask where the strategy for the sector will sit.
We heard back in October, when taking evidence, about the critical situation on the ground. Now, I'm sure that you and many Members, like me, are receiving casework from a number of venues who are hugely concerned because of the increases in energy costs and the problems in terms of staff recruitment and so on, and this is going to be a huge problem, because many of these venues are extremely important in terms of our communities, in terms of, as a result of COVID, bringing people together and tackling the loneliness and isolation within our communities, and this is the case across Wales, never mind the impact on the local economy. So, I am concerned that we are, perhaps, not connecting this in terms of what we need in developing our economy and supporting our communities beyond what we see in some interventions and some strategies.
So, thank you to everyone who gave of their time to present evidence to us. I'm sure that they will feel frustrated in seeing that some of these recommendations haven't been accepted, and I think what I would like to hear from the Deputy Minister as she responds to this debate is: what support will be available to those facing closure at the moment, or who won't be able to continue, and to ensure that they can develop their businesses for the future, because of the critical situation they are facing? And, as I said earlier, where is the strategy? I would encourage the Government to reconsider disconnecting the creative industries from the culture strategy. I think that they do have to be interconnected, and as we do see that that strategy is still being developed, can we see the Government perhaps rethinking that approach and ensuring that the creative industries are at the heart of the future of the Welsh culture strategy?
I very much agree with the final point that was made by Heledd Fychan. I, like others on the committee, am very much grateful to the Welsh Government for accepting most of the recommendations, but profoundly disappointed that the Welsh Government has not accepted and has, in fact, rejected, I think, recommendations 1 and 4 in particular.
Rwy'n cytuno'n gryf â'r pwynt olaf a wnaed gan Heledd Fychan. Rwyf i, fel eraill ar y pwyllgor, yn ddiolchgar iawn i Lywodraeth Cymru am dderbyn y rhan fwyaf o'r argymhellion, ond yn siomedig iawn nad yw Llywodraeth Cymru wedi derbyn, ac mewn gwirionedd wedi gwrthod, rwy'n credu, argymhellion 1 a 4 yn enwedig.
It is important and it is impossible, in my view, to pretend that we can have a culture strategy that doesn't involve the people who work in the sector. You simply cannot. Culture is about people. Culture is about who we are as a people. A strategy should be looking at the different elements within that whole ecosystem of that sector, bringing things together and looking at how we can maximise the value of that sector to this country, but also maximise the impact that this sector has on all of us. To believe that it is possible to achieve those ambitions without having a clear-sighted, thorough, deep and ambitious strategy for the workforce, for the people, beggars belief. It can't be done.
I would say to the Welsh Government, 'Think hard about these matters', because it's one thing to say—and I've probably said it myself at different times—that we have a high-level strategy that simply addresses some of the major issues, but you don't have a strategy at all if you haven't got the people to deliver it. That's the reality. And what I want to see from Government is far more ambition, far more objectives, far more accountability for these things. And I hope that the culture strategy, when we do see it, will not simply be a whole load of words and pictures, very well produced, very well designed, but that what it will have is vision and ambition pulsating through every page of it, and, at its heart, it must have people.
And, in the same way, on recommendation 4, I understand the devolution settlement. I can assure the Welsh Government that the Senedd understands the settlement. And I can assure the Welsh Government that the committee understands the settlement. We know what is devolved and what isn't devolved. But we also understand the nature of Government, and Government can act as a catalyst, Government can marshal change, Government can be ambitious, Government can be energetic, and Government can bring people together in order to achieve the objectives that I believe the Government shares with us. The Government should not, in my view, be rejecting a recommendation that seeks to ensure that, and I quote,
'the arts, culture and music sectors...achieve equitable pay settlements and outline...additional support'.
That is what Government, I believe, in Wales, should be doing. Because this was a really important inquiry, and it was undertaken, of course, against a backdrop of some quite significant issues. And it was quite a difficult inquiry, in some ways, for some participants and for some witnesses, and I think we should repeat the gratitude that the Chair outlined at the beginning of this debate, to all the witnesses and all those who participated in the inquiry.
I remember attending an event in the centre of the city in Cardiff, where we spoke to a whole range of different people who had tried to make their way in the industry, and what they shared was a fantastic ambition for Wales, for the sector, and for who we could all be. And it was inspiring to spend time with them. It was inspiring to spend time with them. But what we learnt was all the barriers that they were trying to overcome, all the barriers that had been placed in their way.
And let me say this—and it's not often said in this Chamber, but it needs to be said, possibly, more often—that we have to find a way of addressing the issue of class in Wales. The issue of class is sometimes overlooked and sometimes, in this Chamber, we feel almost embarrassed to speak about it. But there remains a widespread and persistent class imbalance in this sector. Somebody from a working-class background finding work in a creative occupation has remained unchanged, in terms of the likelihood, for too many years. In terms of the future, the barriers may well become insurmountable. And what I want to see is that people from Blaenau Gwent, people who I grew up with in Tredegar, have the same opportunity to succeed in the creative industries as others who grew up elsewhere. And that has to be the ambition. It has to be the ambition for this Government. It has to be the ambition of all of us. And it won't be achieved if the Welsh Government doesn't include people at the heart of all that it does.
So, I hope that this inquiry will succeed in placing people at the centre of all that we wish to achieve, and all that we envisage is possible in Wales and for the future. And that means a culture strategy. It means an activist Government investing in people to ensure that we can all invest in our futures. Thank you.
Mae'n bwysig ac mae'n amhosibl, yn fy marn i, esgus y gallwn gael strategaeth ddiwylliant nad yw'n cynnwys y bobl sy'n gweithio yn y sector. Ni allwch wneud hynny. Mae diwylliant yn ymwneud â phobl. Mae diwylliant yn ymwneud â phwy ydym ni fel pobl. Dylai strategaeth edrych ar y gwahanol elfennau yn ecosystem gyfan y sector hwnnw, gan ddod â phethau at ei gilydd ac edrych ar sut y gallwn gynyddu gwerth y sector i'r wlad hon, a sicrhau bod y sector yn cael yr effaith orau bosibl ar bob un ohonom. Mae'n anodd iawn credu ei bod yn bosibl cyflawni'r uchelgeisiau hynny heb fod â strategaeth sy'n glir, yn drylwyr, yn ddwfn ac yn uchelgeisiol ar gyfer y gweithlu, ar gyfer y bobl. Ni ellir ei wneud.
Carwn ddweud wrth Lywodraeth Cymru, 'Meddyliwch yn galed am y materion hyn', oherwydd un peth yw dweud—ac mae'n debyg fy mod wedi ei ddweud fy hun ar wahanol adegau—fod gennym strategaeth lefel uchel sy'n mynd i'r afael â rhai o'r prif faterion, ond nid oes gennych strategaeth o gwbl os nad oes gennych bobl i'w chyflawni. Dyna'r realiti. A'r hyn rwyf am ei weld gan y Llywodraeth yw llawer mwy o uchelgais, llawer mwy o amcanion, llawer mwy o atebolrwydd am y pethau hyn. Ac rwy'n gobeithio y bydd y strategaeth ddiwylliant, pan fyddwn yn ei gweld, yn fwy na llwyth o eiriau a lluniau, wedi'u cynhyrchu'n dda iawn, wedi'u llunio'n dda iawn, a bod ganddi weledigaeth ac uchelgais sy'n anadlu drwy bob tudalen ohoni, ac yn ganolog iddi, mae'n rhaid iddi gael pobl.
Ac yn yr un modd, ar argymhelliad 4, rwy'n deall y setliad datganoli. Gallaf sicrhau Llywodraeth Cymru fod y Senedd yn deall y setliad. A gallaf sicrhau Llywodraeth Cymru fod y pwyllgor yn deall y setliad. Rydym yn gwybod beth sydd wedi'i ddatganoli a beth sydd heb ei ddatganoli. Ond rydym hefyd yn deall natur y Llywodraeth, a gall y Llywodraeth weithredu fel catalydd, gall y Llywodraeth greu newid, gall y Llywodraeth fod yn uchelgeisiol, gall y Llywodraeth fod yn egnïol, a gall y Llywodraeth ddod â phobl ynghyd er mwyn cyflawni'r amcanion y credaf fod y Llywodraeth yn eu rhannu â ni. Yn fy marn i, ni ddylai'r Llywodraeth wrthod argymhelliad sy'n ceisio sicrhau bod
'sectorau’r celfyddydau, diwylliant a cherddoriaeth...[yn] sicrhau setliadau cyflog teg ac amlinellu...[c]ymorth ychwanegol.'
Dyna y credaf y dylai'r Llywodraeth yng Nghymru fod yn ei wneud. Oherwydd roedd hwn yn ymchwiliad pwysig iawn, ac fe'i cyflawnwyd yn erbyn cefndir o bethau go sylweddol. Ac roedd yn ymchwiliad eithaf anodd, mewn rhai ffyrdd, i rai cyfranogwyr ac i rai tystion, ac rwy'n credu y dylem ailadrodd y diolch a nododd y Cadeirydd ar ddechrau'r ddadl hon i'r holl dystion a phawb a gymerodd ran yn yr ymchwiliad.
Rwy'n cofio mynychu digwyddiad yng nghanol y ddinas yng Nghaerdydd, lle buom yn siarad ag ystod eang o wahanol bobl a oedd wedi ceisio gwneud eu ffordd yn y diwydiant, a'r hyn a rannent oedd uchelgais gwych ar gyfer Cymru, ar gyfer y sector, ac ar gyfer pwy y gallem i gyd fod. Ac roedd yn fraint treulio amser gyda nhw. Roedd yn bleser treulio amser gyda nhw. Ond yr hyn a ddysgwyd gennym oedd yr holl rwystrau y ceisient eu goresgyn, yr holl rwystrau a oedd wedi eu gosod yn eu ffordd.
A gadewch imi ddweud hyn—ac nid yw'n cael ei ddweud yn aml yn y Siambr hon, ond efallai fod angen ei ddweud yn amlach—rhaid inni ddod o hyd i ffordd o fynd i'r afael â mater dosbarth yng Nghymru. Weithiau mae mater dosbarth yn cael ei anwybyddu ac weithiau, yn y Siambr hon, rydym yn teimlo embaras bron wrth siarad amdano. Ond mae anghydbwysedd dosbarth eang a pharhaus yn y sector hwn o hyd. Mae'r tebygolrwydd y bydd rhywun o gefndir dosbarth gweithiol yn dod o hyd i waith mewn galwedigaeth greadigol wedi aros yr un fath ers gormod o flynyddoedd. O ran y dyfodol, mae'n ddigon posibl y bydd y rhwystrau yn anorchfygol. A'r hyn rwyf am ei weld yw bod pobl o Flaenau Gwent, pobl y cefais fy magu gyda nhw yn Nhredegar, yn cael yr un cyfle i lwyddo yn y diwydiannau creadigol ag eraill a fagwyd mewn mannau eraill. Ac mae'n rhaid mai dyna'r uchelgais. Mae'n rhaid mai dyma fydd yr uchelgais i'r Llywodraeth hon. Rhaid iddo fod yn uchelgais i bob un ohonom. Ac ni chaiff ei gyflawni os nad yw Llywodraeth Cymru yn cynnwys pobl yn y canol ym mhob dim y mae'n ei wneud.
Felly, rwy'n gobeithio y bydd yr ymchwiliad hwn yn llwyddo i osod pobl wrth wraidd popeth y dymunwn ei gyflawni, a phopeth y rhagwelwn ei fod yn bosibl yng Nghymru ac ar gyfer y dyfodol. Mae hynny'n golygu strategaeth ddiwylliant. Mae'n golygu bod Llywodraeth weithredol yn buddsoddi mewn pobl i sicrhau y gall pawb ohonom fuddsoddi yn ein dyfodol. Diolch.
Being a member of the culture committee has given me the opportunity to learn more about the successes and challenges our creative industries face in Wales, and I'd like to thank everyone involved. At the celebration of 60 years of Doctor Who at the Pierhead building in Cardiff, Russell T. Davies told us how he insisted that Doctor Who would be produced in Wales and how the owners of Bad Wolf studios made it happen, to help grow the economy of Wales—not London, but Wales. We've also seen the success of HBO's House of the Dragon, filmed in my region of North Wales, made possible with support from Creative Wales.
The creative industries, tv and film are rapidly growing in Wales, as referred to earlier, thanks to the hard work of all those involved. It's brought challenges, though. Gabriella Ricci from production company Bad Wolf explained that a shortage of workforce meant that we could not keep up with the demands our productions were seeing in south Wales and the south-west Wales region. I would like to see north Wales reach its potential as a place for the creative industries. We have the talent and we have great locations and educational facilities, and we will be having the Focus Wales music and film event in May, which brings 20,000 people to Wrexham. So, I'm hoping we've got the infrastructure as well.
Our committee agreed that more investment is needed in training and skills. We also need to ensure retention within the industry, and we heard how large numbers of workers are considering leaving due to poor working conditions, which is a serious concern. And as we heard earlier, our recommendation is that Welsh Government work with trade unions to develop best practice for the industry, protecting workers.
It can be tough starting out in the arts, and during a committee visit to Ireland, we heard about their basic income for artists trial, which is taking place over a three-year period. Nine thousand people applied and 2,000 have been randomly selected to take part. Given the precariousness of the arts, culture and music sectors at the moment, due to Brexit, COVID and the cost-of-living crisis, the basic income scheme would give some certainty and a safety net, especially for those just starting their careers.
It is a tale of two halves, though. The small grass-roots venues are struggling with inflationary pressures. People are not returning post COVID and are concerned about rising business rates. I heard on BBC Radio Wales last week a discussion about how the Welsh Rugby Union and the Football Association of Wales support small grass-roots clubs, and it would be great if the successful performers who perform now in stadiums, who started off at these grass-roots venues, could pay into a fund that could support small venues.
I later met representatives of Music Venue Trust in the Senedd and heard more of their proposals through Live Nation of adding £1 or £2 to stadium shows, which could raise hundreds of thousands of pounds for the small venues, and that would help keep them open. I'm not sure how that initiative could be carried forward, but it sounds pretty good to me.
We know that the creative industries are worth more than 5 per cent of gross domestic product and have grown fastest since the pandemic, and have improved the overall Welsh economy. But as the lyrical Philip King from Ireland said at the cross-border Other Voices festival,
'There is no metric for the priceless.'
How do we measure the sense of well-being that music, art and culture bring? I do not want us to underestimate the importance or the value of the creative industries to Wales. Diolch.
Mae bod yn aelod o'r pwyllgor diwylliant wedi rhoi cyfle i mi ddysgu mwy am lwyddiannau a heriau ein diwydiannau creadigol yng Nghymru, a hoffwn ddiolch i bawb a gymerodd ran. Wrth ddathlu 60 mlynedd o Doctor Who yn adeilad y Pierhead yng Nghaerdydd, dywedodd Russell T. Davies wrthym sut y mynnodd y byddai Doctor Who yn cael ei gynhyrchu yng Nghymru a sut y gwnaeth perchnogion stiwdios Bad Wolf wneud iddo ddigwydd, i helpu i dyfu economi Cymru—nid Llundain, ond Cymru. Rydym hefyd wedi gweld llwyddiant House of the Dragon HBO, a ffilmiwyd yn fy rhanbarth i yng Ngogledd Cymru, yn cael ei wneud yn bosibl gyda chefnogaeth gan Cymru Greadigol.
Mae'r diwydiannau creadigol, teledu a ffilm yn tyfu'n gyflym yng Nghymru, fel y nodwyd yn gynharach, diolch i waith caled pawb sy'n rhan ohonynt. Fodd bynnag, mae wedi dod â heriau yn ei sgil. Eglurodd Gabriella Ricci o'r cwmni cynhyrchu Bad Wolf fod prinder gweithlu wedi golygu na allem gadw i fyny â'r gofynion yr oedd ein cynyrchiadau yn eu gweld yn ne Cymru a rhanbarth de-orllewin Cymru. Hoffwn weld gogledd Cymru yn cyrraedd ei botensial fel lle i'r diwydiannau creadigol. Mae'r doniau gennym ac mae'r lleoliadau gennym, ynghyd â chyfleusterau addysgol gwych, a byddwn yn cael digwyddiad cerddoriaeth a ffilm Focus Cymru ym mis Mai, sy'n dod â 20,000 o bobl i Wrecsam. Felly, rwy'n gobeithio bod y seilwaith gennym hefyd.
Cytunodd ein pwyllgor fod angen mwy o fuddsoddiad mewn hyfforddiant a sgiliau. Mae angen inni hefyd sicrhau ein bod yn cadw pobl o fewn y diwydiant, a chlywsom sut mae nifer fawr o weithwyr yn ystyried gadael oherwydd amodau gwaith gwael, sy'n bryder difrifol. Ac fel y clywsom yn gynharach, ein hargymhelliad yw bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn gweithio gydag undebau llafur i ddatblygu arferion gorau ar gyfer y diwydiant, gan ddiogelu gweithwyr.
Gall fod yn anodd dechrau yn y celfyddydau, ac yn ystod ymweliad pwyllgor ag Iwerddon, clywsom am eu treial incwm sylfaenol i artistiaid, sy'n digwydd dros gyfnod o dair blynedd. Gwnaeth 9,000 o bobl gais a dewiswyd 2,000 ar hap i gymryd rhan. O ystyried ansicrwydd y sectorau celfyddydol, diwylliant a cherddoriaeth ar hyn o bryd, oherwydd Brexit, COVID a'r argyfwng costau byw, byddai'r cynllun incwm sylfaenol yn cynnig rhywfaint o sicrwydd a rhwyd ddiogelwch, yn enwedig i'r rhai sy'n dechrau ar eu gyrfaoedd.
Fodd bynnag, mae'n stori o ddau hanner. Mae'r lleoliadau bach llawr gwlad yn cael trafferth gyda phwysau chwyddiant. Nid yw pobl yn dychwelyd ar ôl COVID ac maent yn poeni am ardrethi busnes cynyddol. Clywais drafodaeth ar BBC Radio Wales yr wythnos diwethaf am y ffordd y mae Undeb Rygbi Cymru a Chymdeithas Bêl-droed Cymru yn cefnogi clybiau bach llawr gwlad, a byddai'n wych pe gallai'r perfformwyr llwyddiannus sy'n perfformio nawr mewn stadia ac a ddechreuodd yn y lleoliadau llawr gwlad hyn, dalu i mewn i gronfa a allai gefnogi lleoliadau bach.
Yn ddiweddarach, cyfarfûm â chynrychiolwyr yr Ymddiriedolaeth Lleoliadau Cerddoriaeth yn y Senedd a chlywais fwy am eu cynigion drwy Live Nation i ychwanegu £1 neu £2 at sioeau stadiwm, a allai godi cannoedd o filoedd o bunnoedd i'r lleoliadau bach, a byddai hynny'n helpu i'w cadw ar agor. Nid wyf yn siŵr sut y gellid bwrw ymlaen â'r fenter honno, ond mae'n swnio'n eithaf da i mi.
Gwyddom fod y diwydiannau creadigol yn werth mwy na 5 y cant o gynnyrch mewnwladol gros ac wedi tyfu gyflymaf ers y pandemig, ac wedi gwella economi Cymru yn gyffredinol. Ond fel y dywedodd Philip King o Iwerddon yng ngŵyl drawsffiniol Lleisiau Eraill,
'Nid oes ffordd o fesur yr amhrisiadwy.'
Sut mae mesur yr ymdeimlad o lesiant y mae cerddoriaeth, celfyddyd a diwylliant yn ei gynnig? Nid wyf am inni danbrisio pwysigrwydd a gwerth y diwydiannau creadigol i Gymru. Diolch.
Dirprwy Weinidog y Celfyddydau, Chwaraeon a Thwristiaeth nawr i gyfrannu i'r ddadl, Dawn Bowden.
The Deputy Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism to contribute to the debate, Dawn Bowden.
Diolch, Llywydd. First of all, can I just say that the Welsh Government absolutely welcomes the publication of the 'Behind the scenes: The creative industries workforce' report? I'd certainly like to thank the committee for its work in this important area.
There's absolutely no doubt as to the value of our creative industries. They are, as we've already heard from other contributors, a critical part of our economy, creating jobs and supporting investment across Wales. They're vital to our cultural identity. They contribute to our social landscape and to a strong national brand that helps to promote Wales and its talent to the world. They're essential to the ongoing sustainability and growth of the Welsh language, and furthering our ambitions as set out in 'Cymraeg 2050'.
Now, in January 2020, actually four years ago today, Creative Wales was launched as an internal agency of Welsh Government to champion the creative industries in Wales. Since then, almost two years was taken up with dealing almost exclusively with the COVID response, and supporting our creative industries through that unprecedented crisis. The pandemic was then immediately followed by the cost-of-energy-and-living crisis, which impacts the sector, as, again, we have heard in some detail today. Despite this, Creative Wales has continued to target support to the screen, digital, gaming, music and publishing sectors, and is making positive progress in what has effectively been only two years of relatively normal operation.
But it’s important to note that, across the wider creative industries, we are supporting the sector alongside key partners such as the Arts Council of Wales. And contrary to what we’ve heard today, we are of course developing a culture strategy, which it seems to me that Heledd Fychan has forgotten is actually part of the co-operation agreement, and that we’ve worked every step of the way along the culture strategy road with Members of Plaid Cymru to deliver where we are so far. As I explained to committee, we’re much further along than we would have wanted to be in terms of timings, because the oversight panel that is working on the culture strategy with us came back and said that they felt that they needed more time to do significant areas of work. I’ve made it very clear from the outset—
Diolch, Lywydd. Yn gyntaf oll, a gaf i ddweud bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn croesawu cyhoeddiad adroddiad 'Y tu ôl i'r llenni: gweithlu'r diwydiannau creadigol' yn fawr? Yn sicr, hoffwn ddiolch i'r pwyllgor am ei waith yn y maes pwysig hwn.
Nid oes unrhyw amheuaeth o gwbl ynglŷn â gwerth ein diwydiannau creadigol. Fel y clywsom eisoes gan gyfranwyr eraill, maent yn rhan hanfodol o'n heconomi, yn creu swyddi ac yn cefnogi buddsoddiad ledled Cymru. Maent yn hanfodol i'n hunaniaeth ddiwylliannol. Maent yn cyfrannu at ein tirwedd gymdeithasol ac at frand cenedlaethol cryf sy'n helpu i hyrwyddo Cymru a'i thalent i'r byd. Maent yn hanfodol i gynaliadwyedd a thwf parhaus y Gymraeg, ac yn hyrwyddo ein huchelgeisiau fel y'u nodir yn 'Cymraeg 2050'.
Nawr, ym mis Ionawr 2020, bedair blynedd yn ôl i heddiw mewn gwirionedd, lansiwyd Cymru Greadigol fel asiantaeth fewnol i Lywodraeth Cymru i hyrwyddo'r diwydiannau creadigol yng Nghymru. Ers hynny, aeth bron i ddwy flynedd ar ymdrin yn unig bron â'r ymateb i COVID, a chefnogi ein diwydiannau creadigol drwy'r argyfwng digynsail hwnnw. Yna dilynwyd y pandemig yn syth gan yr argyfwng costau ynni a byw, sy'n effeithio ar y sector, unwaith eto, fel y clywsom yn fanwl iawn heddiw. Er gwaethaf hyn, mae Cymru Greadigol wedi parhau i dargedu cefnogaeth i'r sectorau sgrin, digidol, gemau cyfrifiadurol, cerddoriaeth a chyhoeddi, ac mae'n gwneud cynnydd cadarnhaol yn yr hyn sydd wedi bod i bob pwrpas yn ddim ond dwy flynedd o weithredu cymharol normal.
Ond mae'n bwysig nodi, ar draws y diwydiannau creadigol ehangach, ein bod yn cefnogi'r sector ochr yn ochr â phartneriaid allweddol fel Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru. Ac yn groes i'r hyn a glywsom heddiw, rydym yn datblygu strategaeth ddiwylliant wrth gwrs, ac mae'n ymddangos i mi fod Heledd Fychan wedi anghofio mewn gwirionedd fod y strategaeth ddiwylliant yn rhan o'r cytundeb cydweithio, a'n bod wedi gweithio bob cam o'r ffordd arni gydag Aelodau o Blaid Cymru i gyrraedd lle rydym hyd yn hyn. Fel yr eglurais wrth y pwyllgor, rydym yn llawer pellach ymlaen nag y byddem wedi dymuno bod o ran amseru, oherwydd daeth y panel trosolwg sy'n gweithio gyda ni ar y strategaeth ddiwylliant yn ôl a dweud eu bod yn teimlo bod angen mwy o amser arnynt i wneud meysydd gwaith sylweddol. Rwyf wedi dweud yn glir iawn o'r cychwyn—
Is the Minister taking an intervention from the Chamber?
A yw'r Gweinidog yn derbyn ymyriad o'r Siambr?
I can't hear anything in the Chamber.
Ni allaf glywed unrhyw beth yn y Siambr.
Yes. Are you agreeing to the intervention, first? From Tom Giffard.
Iawn. A ydych chi'n cytuno i dderbyn yr ymyriad, yn gyntaf? Gan Tom Giffard.
From Tom Giffard? Okay.
Gan Tom Giffard? O'r gorau.
Thank you.
Diolch.
Thank you very much, Deputy Minister. You seemed excited to take my intervention. You mentioned you were much further along in the development of a cultural strategy, in your words there. That's not quite the case, is it? Because you mentioned initially that this would not take very long, and we're still three years down the line without a cultural strategy. I understand you mentioned at committee recently that that took some time, that process took longer than you thought, but we still actually haven't got a firm date as to when that's being published. Can you clarify that now?
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Ddirprwy Weinidog. Roeddech i'ch gweld yn gyffrous i dderbyn fy ymyriad. Roeddech chi'n sôn eich bod chi'n llawer pellach ymlaen gyda'r gwaith o ddatblygu strategaeth ddiwylliannol, yn eich geiriau chi yno. Go brin fod hynny'n wir. Oherwydd fe wnaethoch chi grybwyll i ddechrau na fyddai hyn yn cymryd llawer o amser, ac rydym yn dal i fod heb strategaeth ddiwylliannol dair blynedd wedyn. Rwy'n deall eich bod wedi crybwyll yn y pwyllgor yn ddiweddar ei fod wedi cymryd peth amser, fod y broses wedi cymryd mwy o amser nag a feddylioch chi, ond rydym yn dal i fod heb gael dyddiad pendant ar gyfer pryd y caiff ei chyhoeddi. A allwch chi egluro hynny nawr?
No, no, sorry, Tom, you've misunderstood what I was saying. We are not as far down the road with the culture strategy as I would have wanted to be because the overarching panel that is working on this with us has come back to us several times to say that they needed to do further work. There were areas, there were gaps, where further consultation and further work with stakeholders was needed. But each and every step that we've taken in the culture strategy has been done in conjunction with our co-operation agreement partners, who have agreed the way forward, and all of this was explained to you in committee recently. So, I’m not going to take any further time from my response or my contribution for that today.
It is also not true to say, of course, that the culture strategy is not a people strategy. It is, of course. The point that was made in my response is that Creative Wales actually sits outside the scope of the culture strategy, and that was agreed with our co-operation agreement partners at the outset, so that should have been readily understood.
The interconnectedness of the creative industries and the arts in Wales is an important consideration in our support for the sector. The recently launched memorandum of understanding between Creative Wales and the Arts Council of Wales recognises this interconnectedness and the need for a holistic approach to our joint work. The document sets out our shared priorities on areas such as skills, diversity and inclusion, and recognises the importance of the freelance community to the sector’s ongoing success. Indeed, the freelance community itself—. Wales was the only part of the UK that agreed a freelancer pledge to work with those people in the industry.
There are other areas in the committee report and its recommendations that call for actions across three sub-sectors where levers and responsibilities differ. Where this is the case, we have sought to separately explain the different positions in our responses to those, and, again, I don’t intend to repeat evidence that has already been provided on that.
But we should be proud of our achievements in the creative industries. As is the case for many things in Wales, the sector punches way above its weight, as is highlighted by the committee’s report. The screen sector in particular is one of our success stories, generating a turnover of £459 million in 2022—an increase of 37 per cent since 2017.
However, as the report also highlights, the creative industries are, of course, not without their challenges, not least the ongoing challenging economic conditions that all businesses are experiencing as the world continues to recover from the global pandemic and contend with rising energy and business costs. But if we are to protect our creative industries, these challenges cannot be ignored. We must meet them head on, and our response to the committee's report sets out some of the actions that we are taking to do this.
Recognising the challenges facing the music industry since its launch, Creative Wales has invested just under £9 million in the sector, and another round of significant funding for grass-roots venues will soon be announced. We're proud that not one music venue in Wales has been lost, unlike in other parts of the UK.
In response to the need for inclusive pathways into work, Creative Wales, alongside partners Careers Wales, are providing opportunities for learners to meet and interact with employers from all sectors, including the creative industries. These opportunities allow employers to provide real-world insight and inspiration to potential future employees, helping to inform, inspire and motivate young people about their future career. Targeted skills support is being made available through our creative skills fund, which, in its first round, saw 17 projects supported across priority sub-sectors, and I will shortly be able to report back on the wide range of outputs that have been achieved as a result of that funding.
In addition, every screen production that the Welsh Government supports via Creative Wales is mandated to provide entry-level and upskilling opportunities in order to provide vital on-the-job training for both the current and future screen workforce. This has, so far, supported over 350 paid training placements to date, with a further 36 placements under way on current productions.
We recognise, of course, that there's still much to be done to ensure that we are properly looking after the well-being of the creative workforce, and we are exploring targeted action in response to the Creative Industries Policy and Evidence Centre's 'Good Work' report to drive positive behaviours in the sector. This will complement existing action, including, as has been referred to by the Chair, the well-being facilitators project, and our focus on fair work in funding assessment criteria.
Of course, we are all well aware of the 2024-25 budget and how extremely challenging that is. And despite what Alun Davies said in his contribution, we are currently considering the potential implications for our creative industries and our cultural sectors, and this is reflected in our response to the recommendations. But given this context, it is even more important that we continue to work together with our partners and remain agile as we respond to the current and future challenges.
In the past, the sector has shown resilience and an openness to find innovative ways to move forward, and I'm confident that if we work collaboratively with the sector to respond to the ongoing challenges, we can retain Wales's position as the place for creativity, turning imagination into industry and delivering our ambitions for growth. Llywydd, may I thank all members of the committee and other contributors for the debate today, and for their continued support for the creative industries in Wales? Diolch yn fawr.
Na, na, mae'n ddrwg gennyf, Tom, rydych chi wedi camddeall yr hyn a ddywedais. Nid ydym wedi cyrraedd mor bell gyda'r strategaeth ddiwylliant ag y buaswn wedi dymuno oherwydd bod y panel trosfwaol sy'n gweithio ar hyn gyda ni wedi dod yn ôl atom sawl gwaith i ddweud bod angen iddynt wneud rhagor o waith. Roedd meysydd, roedd bylchau, lle roedd angen ymgynghori pellach a rhagor o waith gyda rhanddeiliaid. Ond mae pob cam a gymerwyd gennym yn y strategaeth ddiwylliant wedi'i wneud ar y cyd â'n partneriaid cytundeb cydweithio, sydd wedi cytuno ar y ffordd ymlaen, ac esboniwyd hyn i gyd i chi yn y pwyllgor yn ddiweddar. Felly, nid wyf am roi unrhyw amser pellach i hynny yn fy ymateb na fy nghyfraniad heddiw.
Nid yw'n wir dweud ychwaith, wrth gwrs, nad yw'r strategaeth ddiwylliant yn strategaeth pobl. Wrth gwrs ei bod. Y pwynt a wnaed yn fy ymateb yw bod Cymru Greadigol mewn gwirionedd y tu allan i gwmpas y strategaeth ddiwylliant, a chytunwyd ar hynny gyda'n partneriaid cytundeb cydweithio ar y dechrau, felly dylai hynny fod wedi bod yn gwbl ddealladwy.
Mae cydgysylltiad y diwydiannau creadigol a'r celfyddydau yng Nghymru yn ystyriaeth bwysig yn ein cefnogaeth i'r sector. Mae'r memorandwm cyd-ddealltwriaeth a lansiwyd yn ddiweddar rhwng Cymru Greadigol a Chyngor Celfyddydau Cymru yn cydnabod y cydgysylltiad hwn a'r angen am ddull cyfannol o wneud ein gwaith ar y cyd. Mae'r ddogfen yn nodi ein blaenoriaethau cyffredin mewn meysydd fel sgiliau, amrywiaeth a chynhwysiant, ac yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd y gymuned lawrydd i lwyddiant parhaus y sector. Yn wir, y gymuned lawrydd ei hun—. Cymru oedd yr unig ran o'r DU a gytunodd ar addewid llawrydd i weithio gyda'r bobl hynny yn y diwydiant.
Ceir meysydd eraill yn adroddiad y pwyllgor a'i argymhellion sy'n galw am gamau gweithredu ar draws tri is-sector lle mae ysgogiadau a chyfrifoldebau yn wahanol. Lle mae hyn yn wir, rydym wedi ceisio esbonio'r gwahanol safbwyntiau yn ein hymatebion i'r rheini ar wahân, ac unwaith eto, nid wyf yn bwriadu ailadrodd tystiolaeth sydd eisoes wedi'i darparu ar hynny.
Ond dylem fod yn falch o'n cyflawniadau yn y diwydiannau creadigol. Fel sy'n wir am lawer o bethau yng Nghymru, mae'r sector yn gwneud yn llawer gwell na'r disgwyl, fel sy'n cael ei amlygu gan adroddiad y pwyllgor. Mae'r sector sgrin yn arbennig yn un o'n llwyddiannau, a chynhyrchodd drosiant o £459 miliwn yn 2022—cynnydd o 37 y cant ers 2017.
Fodd bynnag, fel y mae'r adroddiad hefyd yn nodi, mae yna heriau'n wynebu'r diwydiannau creadigol, yn enwedig yr amodau economaidd heriol parhaus y mae pob busnes yn eu hwynebu wrth i'r byd barhau i wella o'r pandemig byd-eang ac ymdopi â chostau cynyddol ynni a busnes. Ond os ydym am ddiogelu ein diwydiannau creadigol, ni ellir anwybyddu'r heriau hyn. Mae'n rhaid inni fynd ben ben â hwy, ac mae ein hymateb i adroddiad y pwyllgor yn nodi rhai o'r camau a gymerwn i wneud hyn.
I gydnabod yr heriau sy'n wynebu'r diwydiant cerddoriaeth ers ei lansio, mae Cymru Greadigol wedi buddsoddi ychydig o dan £9 miliwn yn y sector, a bydd rownd arall o gyllid sylweddol ar gyfer lleoliadau llawr gwlad yn cael eu cyhoeddi'n fuan. Rydym yn falch nad oes un lleoliad cerddoriaeth yng Nghymru wedi ei golli, yn wahanol i rannau eraill o'r DU.
Mewn ymateb i'r angen am lwybrau cynhwysol i mewn i waith, mae Cymru Greadigol, ochr yn ochr â'i phartneriaid Gyrfa Cymru, yn darparu cyfleoedd i ddysgwyr gyfarfod â chyflogwyr o bob sector a rhyngweithio â hwy, gan gynnwys y diwydiannau creadigol. Mae'r cyfleoedd hyn yn caniatáu i gyflogwyr ddarparu mewnwelediad ac ysbrydoliaeth y byd go iawn i ddarpar weithwyr y dyfodol, gan helpu i hysbysu, ysbrydoli ac ysgogi pobl ifanc gyda'u gyrfa yn y dyfodol. Mae cymorth sgiliau wedi'i dargedu ar gael drwy ein cronfa sgiliau creadigol, a welodd 17 prosiect yn ei rownd gyntaf yn cael eu cefnogi ar draws is-sectorau blaenoriaethol, a chyn bo hir byddaf yn gallu adrodd yn ôl ar yr ystod eang o allbynnau a gyflawnwyd o ganlyniad i'r cyllid hwnnw.
Yn ogystal, mae pob cynhyrchiad sgrin y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei gefnogi drwy Cymru Greadigol yn gorfod darparu cyfleoedd lefel mynediad ac uwchsgilio er mwyn darparu hyfforddiant hanfodol yn y gwaith ar gyfer y gweithlu sgrin presennol ac yn y dyfodol. Hyd yn hyn, mae wedi cefnogi dros 350 o leoliadau hyfforddiant â thâl, gyda 36 o leoliadau eraill ar y gweill ar gynyrchiadau cyfredol.
Rydym yn cydnabod, wrth gwrs, fod llawer i'w wneud o hyd i sicrhau ein bod yn gofalu am les y gweithlu creadigol yn iawn, ac rydym yn edrych ar gamau wedi'u targedu mewn ymateb i adroddiad 'Gwaith Da' Canolfan Polisi a Thystiolaeth y Diwydiannau Creadigol i ysgogi ymddygiad cadarnhaol yn y sector. Bydd hyn yn ategu'r camau gweithredu presennol, gan gynnwys, fel y nododd y Cadeirydd, y prosiect hwyluswyr llesiant, a'n ffocws ar waith teg yn y meini prawf asesu cyllid.
Wrth gwrs, rydym i gyd yn ymwybodol iawn o gyllideb 2024-25 a pha mor heriol ydyw. Ac er gwaethaf yr hyn a ddywedodd Alun Davies yn ei gyfraniad, rydym ar hyn o bryd yn ystyried y goblygiadau posibl i'n diwydiannau creadigol a'n sectorau diwylliannol, a chaiff hyn ei adlewyrchu yn ein hymateb i'r argymhellion. Ond o ystyried y cyd-destun hwn, mae'n bwysicach fyth ein bod yn parhau i weithio gyda'n partneriaid ac yn parhau i fod yn ystwyth wrth inni ymateb i'r heriau presennol ac yn y dyfodol.
Yn y gorffennol, mae'r sector wedi dangos gwytnwch ac awydd i fod yn agored er mwyn dod o hyd i ffyrdd arloesol o symud ymlaen, ac rwy'n hyderus, os gweithiwn yn gydweithredol gyda'r sector i ymateb i'r heriau parhaus, y gallwn gadw safle Cymru fel lle ar gyfer creadigrwydd, gan droi dychymyg yn ddiwydiant a chyflawni ein huchelgeisiau ar gyfer twf. Lywydd, a gaf i ddiolch i holl aelodau'r pwyllgor a chyfranwyr eraill am y ddadl heddiw, ac am eu cefnogaeth barhaus i'r diwydiannau creadigol yng Nghymru? Diolch yn fawr.
Cadeirydd y pwyllgor diwylliant nawr i ymateb i'r ddadl—Delyth Jewell.
The Chair of the culture committee now to respond to the debate—Delyth Jewell.
Diolch, Llywydd. Diolch i bawb sydd wedi cymryd rhan yn y ddadl yma heddiw. Cyn inni gloi, hoffwn ymateb i sawl pwynt sydd wedi cael ei godi.
Gwnaeth Tom osod mas gwerth y diwydiannau creadigol. Mae wedi gosod mas rhai o'r problemau sy'n wynebu y gweithwyr freelance yn arbennig ac, o ran y worst of times, costau'n cynyddu 300 y cant ar gyfer rhai yn y sector cerddoriaeth. Ond soniodd hefyd lle mae pethau'n mynd yn dda, the best of times, gyda Bad Wolf, sy'n gwneud cymaint i'n gwneud ni i gyd ymfalchïo ynddo fe. Ond mae prinder staff, fel roedd Tom wedi sôn amdano, yn broblem fawr, a dyna pam bydd angen y strategaeth yma a pham bydd cymaint i'w groesawu pan fydd hi'n dod.
Diolch i Heledd, a oedd wedi sôn am y twf mewn diwydiannau sydd mor bwysig i'n dyfodol fel cenedl: y gamers, yr YouTubers—y sgiliau fydd mor ddefnyddiol i'n dyfodol ni. Dwi'n teimlo mor hen pan dwi'n sôn am bethau fel yna, fel coding, achos dwi mor ymwybodol fy mod i ddim yn deall sut mae pethau fel yna'n gweithio'n dda.
Ond, ie, mae'r ffyrdd newydd o weithio—bod pobl yn gallu gwneud pethau o bell—yn cynnig cymaint mwy o gyfleoedd, yn enwedig yn y sector yna, a dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna'n rhywbeth rili cyffrous. A phwy—. Lle dwi wedi gosod e mas—? O na, dwi wedi ffeindio fe nawr. Maddeuwch i fi, Llywydd. Yn sicr mae angen gweld y sectorau yma'n gweithio fel un, yn unedig, ddim mewn seilos. A diolch i Heledd am ei gwaith eto. Pan oedd hi'n rhan o'r pwyllgor roedd ei phrofiad hi wedi cyfoethogi'n gwaith ni, felly diolch, Heledd, am hynny.
Thank you, Llywydd. Thank you to everyone who has contributed to today's debate. Before we conclude, I'd like to respond to several of the points raised by Members today.
Tom set out the value of the creative industries. He set out some of the issues facing the freelance workforce in particular and, in terms of the worst of times, costs increasing 300 per cent for some in the music sector. But he also set out where things are going well, the best of times, with Bad Wolf, which is doing so much that we can take pride in in the sector. But there is a shortage of staff, as Tom said, and that's a major issue, and that's why we will need this strategy, which will be so much welcomed when it is received.
Heledd talked about the growth in the sectors that are so important for our nation's future: the gamers, the YouTubers—the skills that will be so important in the future. I feel so old when I talk about things such as coding and so on, because I'm aware that I don't understand how such things work.
But, yes, the new ways of working where people can do things remotely offer so many more opportunities, particularly in those sectors I mentioned, and I think that's something that's really exciting. And who—. Where have I set it out—? No, I've found it now. Forgive me, Llywydd. We do need to see these sectors working as one, not in silos. And thank you to Heledd for her work once again. When she was a member of the committee her experience enriched our work, so thank you, Heledd, for that.
Alun echoed Heledd's final concern that the Government hasn't accepted our recommendation, which has been rehearsed a number of times in the debate, on ensuring the cultural strategy looks at the strategy for the cultural workforce. I agree that culture is about people. It can't be separate from it, and I'm sure we'd all want to see, in Alun's words, vision and ambition pulsating through every page of the strategy. I welcome Alun's passion that was clear in the debate and I'd echo Alun's point that those who gave evidence to us inspired us. On a personal level, I agree with the point about class. It is such a huge barrier to participation in the arts. And I would thank again all those who came to that session at the University of South Wales and all who have given evidence to us. People like them are at the centre, and they need to be.
Carolyn reminded us about one of the major success stories of Bad Wolf and Doctor Who. It shows what's possible. And I'm glad that you quoted Gabriella, Carolyn. Her evidence has been so useful to us. As she said, it's important that all of Wales benefits, not just Cardiff. We need to see jobs being created across the nation. And diolch, Carolyn, for quoting once again the great Philip King. Indeed, there is no metric to measure the priceless value of arts to our nation. So, thank you for quoting his words again.
Ategodd Alun bryder olaf Heledd nad yw'r Llywodraeth wedi derbyn ein hargymhelliad, rhywbeth a ailadroddwyd nifer o weithiau yn y ddadl, ar sicrhau bod y strategaeth ddiwylliannol yn edrych ar y strategaeth ar gyfer y gweithlu diwylliannol. Rwy'n cytuno bod diwylliant yn ymwneud â phobl. Ni all fodoli ar wahân iddynt, ac rwy'n siŵr y byddem i gyd eisiau gweld, yng ngeiriau Alun, y weledigaeth ac uchelgais yn anadlu drwy bob tudalen o'r strategaeth. Rwy'n croesawu angerdd Alun a oedd yn glir yn y ddadl a hoffwn adleisio pwynt Alun fod y rhai a roddodd dystiolaeth i ni wedi ein hysbrydoli. Ar lefel bersonol, rwy'n cytuno â'r pwynt ynglŷn â dosbarth. Mae'n rhwystr enfawr i gyfranogiad yn y celfyddydau. A hoffwn ddiolch eto i bawb a ddaeth i'r sesiwn ym Mhrifysgol De Cymru a phawb sydd wedi rhoi tystiolaeth i ni. Mae pobl fel nhw yn y canol, ac mae angen iddynt fod.
Cawsom ein hatgoffa gan Carolyn am un o lwyddiannau mawr Bad Wolf a Doctor Who. Mae'n dangos beth sy'n bosibl. Ac rwy'n falch eich bod wedi dyfynnu Gabriella, Carolyn. Mae ei thystiolaeth wedi bod mor ddefnyddiol i ni. Fel y dywedodd, mae'n bwysig fod Cymru gyfan yn elwa, nid Caerdydd yn unig. Mae angen inni weld swyddi'n cael eu creu ar draws y wlad. A diolch, Carolyn, am ddyfynnu'r anfarwol Philip King unwaith eto. Yn wir, nid oes ffordd o fesur gwerth amhrisiadwy y celfyddydau i'n cenedl. Felly, diolch am ddyfynnu ei eiriau eto.
Diolch i'r Dirprwy Weinidog am osod mas pwysigrwydd y diwydiannau hyn.
I thank the Deputy Minister for setting out the importance of these industries.
There's so much for us to be proud of in Wales. These sectors provide immense benefit to us all. The concerns that were raised in evidence too were about shoring up those sectors, of course, and I know that you want to see that happen as well.
On the strategy, I would like to see the Government looking again at including pay and conditions more broadly as part of the strategy, including the arts, culture and music workforce. If that work could be part of it, I think that it would really enrich it. The work on well-being facilitators that the Minister was talking about towards the end there really is something to be welcomed and we're glad to see what the Welsh Government is doing on this. The evidence we received from so many about the effect of bullying on them and how isolated people can feel in this sector because of a lack of HR functions in some of the very small businesses is something really concerning. So, I think that learning from good examples, maybe seeing where HR functions can be shared across different small businesses, is something that will help, we hope, to open out these opportunities for work to so many different people.
Mae cymaint gennym i fod yn falch ohono yng Nghymru. Mae'r sectorau hyn yn darparu budd enfawr i bob un ohonom. Roedd y pryderon a godwyd mewn tystiolaeth hefyd yn ymwneud â chynnal y sectorau hynny, wrth gwrs, a gwn eich bod am weld hynny'n digwydd hefyd.
Ar y strategaeth, hoffwn weld y Llywodraeth yn edrych eto ar gynnwys cyflogau ac amodau yn ehangach fel rhan o'r strategaeth, gan gynnwys y gweithlu celfyddydau, diwylliant a cherddoriaeth. Pe gallai'r gwaith hwnnw fod yn rhan ohono, rwy'n credu y byddai'n ei gyfoethogi'n fawr. Mae'r gwaith ar hwyluswyr llesiant yr oedd y Gweinidog yn sôn amdano tuag at y diwedd yn rhywbeth i'w groesawu'n fawr ac rydym yn falch o weld beth mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud ar hyn. Mae'r dystiolaeth a gawsom gan gynifer am effaith bwlio arnynt a pha mor ynysig y gall pobl deimlo yn y sector hwn oherwydd diffyg swyddogaethau adnoddau dynol yn rhai o'r busnesau bach iawn yn rhywbeth sy'n peri pryder gwirioneddol. Felly, rwy'n credu bod dysgu o enghreifftiau da, a gweld efallai ble y gellir rhannu swyddogaethau adnoddau dynol ar draws gwahanol fusnesau bach, yn rhywbeth a fydd yn helpu, gobeithio, i agor y cyfleoedd gwaith hyn i gymaint o wahanol bobl.
Mae wedi codi nifer o weithiau yn ystod y ddadl yma y ffaith fod rhannau o'r sectorau yma yn gwneud yn dda, yn ffynnu, ond dyw rhannau ddim yn gwneud yn dda. Buaswn i jest eisiau dyfynnu beth ddywedodd Maya Angelou:
It's come up several times during this debate the fact that part of these sectors are doing well, they're flourishing, but others aren't doing as well. I'd just like to quote what Maya Angelou once said:
'You can't use up creativity. The more you use, the more you have.'
And maybe that gets to the heart of the passion that Alun was talking about that's so resonant in people working in the arts and creative sectors. They have so much to give and the more that they give the more that they want to give. But the barriers that are put in their place are heartbreaking, because all of that potential is being lost.
'Ni allwch ddihysbyddu creadigrwydd. Po fwyaf a ddefnyddiwch, y mwyaf a fydd gennych.'
Ac efallai fod hynny'n mynd at wraidd yr angerdd yr oedd Alun yn sôn amdano sydd mor amlwg mewn pobl sy'n gweithio yn y sectorau celfyddydol a chreadigol. Mae ganddynt gymaint i'w roi a po fwyaf a roddant y mwyaf y maent am ei roi. Ond mae'r rhwystrau a roddir yn eu ffordd yn dorcalonnus, oherwydd mae'r holl botensial hwnnw'n cael ei golli.
O ran geiriau Maya Angelou, dyna sut rydyn ni yn ystyried dyfodol y diwydiannau creadigol yng Nghymru. Gyda'r ymyriadau cywir rydym yn gobeithio y bydd mwy o weithwyr yn cymryd rhan ym mhob sector o’r diwydiannau creadigol—diwydiannau sydd o bwysigrwydd enfawr i'n diwylliant a'n henaid fel cenedl. Bydd hyn yn arwain at ei dwf parhaus yng Nghymru—twf sy’n gynaliadwy ac yn deg i bawb sy’n gweithio ar draws y diwydiannau creadigol.
Felly, mae yna nifer o bethau sydd wedi cael eu dweud y prynhawn yma. Rwy'n gobeithio nad dyma—. Wel, dŷn ni'n sicr fel pwyllgor nad dyma fydd y diwedd ar y drafodaeth yma; nid dyma fydd diwedd ar fel y byddwn ni'n edrych i helpu'r sectorau. Rwy'n gwybod bydd y Llywodraeth eisiau gwneud yr un peth, felly byddwn ni'n dychwelyd at nifer o'r pynciau yma'n fuan iawn. Ond diolch eto i'r tîm ffantastig sydd gyda ni yn y pwyllgor, diolch i bob un o'r aelodau, a diolch, unwaith eto, i'r bobl sydd wedi rhoi tystiolaeth i ni, sydd wedi bod mor agored, a diolch iddyn nhw am eu dyfalbarhad trwy gydol the best of times and the worst of times. Diolch.
In terms of Maya Angelou's words, that's how we perceive the future of the creative industries in Wales. With the right interventions we hope that more practitioners will be able to participate in all parts of the creative industries sector—industries that are so important to our culture and our soul as a nation. This will lead to the continuing growth of the sector in Wales—growth that is sustainable and fair to everyone who chooses to work in the creative industries.
So, there are a number of things that have been said this afternoon. I hope that this won't—. Well, we're sure as a committee that this won't be an end to this debate and discussion; this won't bring to an end our work on how to support the sectors. I know that the Government would also support that, so we will return to a number of these topics very soon. But thank you, once again, to the excellent team that we have in the committee, thank you to all of the members, and thanks again to all of those who gave evidence to us, who have been so open, and thanks to them for their perseverance throughout the best of times and the worst of times. Thank you.
Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid nodi adroddiad y pwyllgor? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Nac oes, does yna ddim gwrthwynebiad. Felly, mae'r cynnig yna wedi'i dderbyn.
The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No, there are no objections. Therefore, the motion is agreed.
Derbyniwyd y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.
Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.
Detholwyd y gwelliannau canlynol: gwelliant 1 yn enw Lesley Griffiths, a gwelliannau 2 a 3 yn enw Luke Fletcher. Os derbynnir gwelliant 1, caiff gwelliant 2 ei ddad-ddethol.
The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths, and amendments 2 and 3 in the name of Luke Fletcher. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.
Eitem 12 sydd nesaf, dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig ar ryddhad ardrethi busnes yw hon, a dwi'n galw ar Peter Fox i wneud y cynnig.
Item 12 is next, the Welsh Conservatives debate on business rates relief, and I call on Peter Fox to move the motion.
Cynnig NDM8469 Darren Millar
Cefnogwyd gan Joel James
Cynnig bod y Senedd:
1. Yn gresynu bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn torri’r gyfradd rhyddhad ardrethi busnes o 75 y cant i 40 y cant ar gyfer y sector manwerthu, lletygarwch a hamdden yn y gyllideb ddrafft ar gyfer 2024-2025.
2. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i adfer y gyfradd rhyddhad ardrethi busnes o 75 y cant ar gyfer y sector manwerthu, lletygarwch a hamdden er mwyn cefnogi busnesau a diogelu swyddi.
Motion NDM8469 Darren Millar
Supported by Joel James
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Regrets that the Welsh Government is slashing business rates relief from 75 per cent to 40 per cent for the retail, hospitality and leisure sector in the 2024-2025 draft budget.
2. Calls on the Welsh Government to reinstate business rates relief to 75 per cent for the retail, hospitality and leisure sector to support businesses and protect jobs.
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
Diolch, Llywydd. I'll start by moving the motion in the name of Darren Millar. I hope all in the Senedd recognise the importance of business, especially the retail, hospitality and leisure sectors, to Wales. The hospitality sector alone directly employs 165,000 people here in Wales and contributes an estimated £4 billion to the economy. Similarly, the retail sector is one of the largest private sector employers in Wales, employing a total of 139,000 people, according to the Welsh Government's own website. These businesses need more financial support, now more than ever, especially after the devastating impact of the pandemic and the ongoing increases in inflation as a result of the global pressures we've all seen. Llywydd, the hospitality sector in particular is crying out for support, with recent figures showing that 63 pubs were forced to close down last year—an average of more than one a week. And we know that that's double the rate we're seeing in England. But, as I have previously said, hospitality venues of all descriptions are not just businesses, they are the social hubs for many communities, as indeed are our shops, particularly in rural areas.
The UK Conservative Government has acknowledged the importance of these facts by providing NDR relief worth 75 per cent for businesses in retail, hospitality and the leisure sector—a move that will support businesses and protect jobs. And we know that the Welsh Government received moneys to offer that same support here. With that in mind, I simply cannot get my head around why the Welsh Government won't pass on the same support—they were given the money. Yes, the Welsh Government has provided some support for businesses in retail, hospitality and leisure, but this support is nowhere near the relief provided in England. As a result of the Welsh Government's decision not to provide the same support here in Wales, businesses will pay almost twice as much business rates than if they were based in England.
It is therefore vital that the Welsh Government extends the business rate relief for the retail, hospitality and leisure sectors, ensuring that Welsh businesses are not penalised and disadvantaged. For years, businesses in Wales have been disadvantaged by the highest business rates in Great Britain, with both small and large businesses paying the same rate, both of which are higher than the rate that small businesses pay in both England and Scotland. It's also a fact that support for small businesses in England and Scotland is more generous than we're led to believe it is in Wales, with England offering relief for properties with rateable values of £15,000 and Scotland providing relief for properties with rateable values of £20,000. Llywydd, it is clear that business and the economy are not priorities of Welsh Labour, sadly. They don't get the importance of the economy to this great country we live in. So, Llywydd, I close by asking you all to support our motion today. Our businesses need our support.
Diolch, Lywydd. Fe ddechreuaf drwy gyflwyno'r cynnig yn enw Darren Millar. Rwy'n gobeithio y bydd pob un yn y Senedd yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd busnes i Gymru, yn enwedig y sectorau manwerthu, lletygarwch a hamdden. Mae'r sector lletygarwch yn unig yn cyflogi 165,000 o bobl yn uniongyrchol yma yng Nghymru ac yn cyfrannu tua £4 biliwn i'r economi. Yn yr un modd, y sector manwerthu yw un o'r cyflogwyr sector preifat mwyaf yng Nghymru, gan gyflogi cyfanswm o 139,000 o bobl, yn ôl gwefan Llywodraeth Cymru ei hun. Mae angen mwy o gymorth ariannol ar y busnesau hyn, nawr yn fwy nag erioed, yn enwedig ar ôl effaith ddinistriol y pandemig a'r cynnydd parhaus mewn chwyddiant o ganlyniad i'r pwysau byd-eang y mae pawb ohonom wedi'i weld. Lywydd, mae'r sector lletygarwch yn arbennig yn gweiddi am gefnogaeth, gyda ffigurau diweddar yn dangos bod 63 o dafarndai wedi eu gorfodi i gau y llynedd—cyfartaledd o fwy nag un yr wythnos. Ac fe wyddom fod hynny'n ddwywaith y gyfradd a welwn yn Lloegr. Ond fel y dywedais o'r blaen, nid busnesau'n unig yw lleoliadau lletygarwch, maent yn ganolfannau cymdeithasol i lawer o gymunedau, fel y mae ein siopau, yn enwedig mewn ardaloedd gwledig.
Mae Llywodraeth Geidwadol y DU wedi cydnabod pwysigrwydd y ffeithiau hyn drwy ddarparu rhyddhad ardrethi annomestig gwerth 75 y cant i fusnesau'r sectorau manwerthu, lletygarwch a hamdden—cam a fydd yn cefnogi busnesau ac yn diogelu swyddi. Ac fe wyddom fod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi derbyn arian i gynnig yr un gefnogaeth yma. Gyda hynny mewn golwg, ni allaf ddirnad pam na fydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn trosglwyddo'r un cymorth ymlaen—rhoddwyd yr arian iddynt. Do, mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi darparu rhywfaint o gymorth i fusnesau manwerthu, lletygarwch a hamdden, ond nid yw'r gefnogaeth honno'n agos at y rhyddhad a ddarperir yn Lloegr. O ganlyniad i benderfyniad Llywodraeth Cymru i beidio â darparu'r un cymorth yma yng Nghymru, bydd busnesau'n talu bron ddwywaith cymaint o ardrethi busnes na phe baent wedi'u lleoli yn Lloegr.
Felly, mae'n hanfodol fod Llywodraeth Cymru yn ymestyn y rhyddhad ardrethi busnes ar gyfer y sectorau manwerthu, lletygarwch a hamdden, gan sicrhau nad yw busnesau Cymru'n cael eu cosbi a'u rhoi dan anfantais. Ers blynyddoedd, mae busnesau yng Nghymru wedi bod dan anfantais oherwydd yr ardrethi busnes uchaf ym Mhrydain, gyda busnesau bach a mawr yn talu'r un gyfradd, sy'n uwch na'r gyfradd y mae busnesau bach yn ei thalu yn Lloegr a'r Alban. Mae hefyd yn ffaith bod cefnogaeth i fusnesau bach yn Lloegr a'r Alban yn fwy hael nag y cawn ein harwain i gredu ei fod yng Nghymru, gyda Lloegr yn cynnig rhyddhad ar eiddo sydd â gwerth ardrethol o £15,000 a'r Alban yn darparu rhyddhad ar eiddo sydd â gwerth ardrethol o £20,000. Lywydd, mae'n amlwg nad yw busnes a'r economi yn flaenoriaeth i Lafur Cymru, yn anffodus. Nid ydynt yn deall pwysigrwydd yr economi i'r wlad wych hon yr ydym yn byw ynddi. Felly, Lywydd, rwy'n gorffen drwy ofyn i chi i gyd gefnogi ein cynnig heddiw. Mae ein busnesau angen ein cefnogaeth.
Rwyf wedi dethol y tri gwelliant i'r cynnig, ac os derbynnir gwelliant 1, bydd gwelliant 2 yn cael ei ddad-ddethol. Y Gweinidog cyllid i gynnig yn ffurfiol gwelliant 1.
I have selected the three amendments to the motion, and if amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. The Minister for finance to move formally amendment 1.
Gwelliant 1—Lesley Griffiths
Dileu popeth a rhoi yn ei le:
Cynnig bod y Senedd:
1. Yn croesawu’r ffaith bod Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer 2024-25, a hynny er gwaethaf y ffaith ei bod werth £1.3 biliwn yn llai mewn termau real nag ydoedd adeg ei gosod yn 2021:
a) yn darparu pecyn o gymorth ar gyfer ardrethi annomestig sydd werth £384 miliwn;
b) yn rhoi cap o 5 y cant ar y cynnydd yn sgil chwyddiant i'r lluosydd ardrethi annomestig; ac
c) yn darparu rhyddhad o ran ardrethi annomestig i fusnesau manwerthu, hamdden a lletygarwch am y pumed flwyddyn yn olynol, gan adeiladu ar y cymorth sydd werth bron i £1 biliwn a ddarparwyd ers 2020-21.
Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths
Delete all and replace with:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Welcomes that, despite its budget being worth £1.3 billion less in real terms than when it was set in 2021, the Welsh Government’s 2024-25 Draft Budget:
a) provides a package of support for non-domestic rates worth £384 million;
b) limits inflationary growth in the non-domestic rates multiplier to 5 per cent; and
c) provides a fifth successive year of non-domestic rates relief for retail, leisure and hospitality businesses, building on the almost £1 billion of support provided since 2020-21.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 1.
Amendment 1 moved.
Yes, formally.
Ie, yn ffurfiol.
Yn ffurfiol—wedi'i wneud. Luke Fletcher nawr i gynnig gwelliannau 2 a 3.
Moved formally. Luke Fletcher now to move amendments 2 and 3.
Gwelliant 2—Luke Fletcher
Ychwanegwch pwynt newydd ar ôl pwynt (1) ac ailrifo yn unol â hynny:
Yn gresynu ymhellach at setliad cyllid presennol Trysorlys y DU nad yw'n ystyried anghenion Cymru.
Amendment 2—Luke Fletcher
Add as new point after point (1) and renumber accordingly:
Further regrets the current UK Treasury funding settlement which takes no account of Wales's needs.
Gwelliant 3—Luke Fletcher
Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:
Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i symud oddi wrth ardrethi annomestig, cyhoeddi amserlen ar gyfer eu gwaith, a sicrhau bod map ffordd ar gyfer pontio allan o ardrethi annomestig yn cael ei ddarparu yn ogystal ag opsiynau ar gyfer system newydd.
Amendment 3—Luke Fletcher
Add as new point at end of motion:
Calls on the Welsh Government to move away from non-domestic rates, publish a timescale for their work, and ensure a roadmap to transition out of non-domestic rates is provided as well as options for a new system.
Cynigiwyd gwelliannau 2 a 3.
Amendments 2 and 3 moved.
Diolch, Llywydd. I move the amendments tabled by Plaid Cymru, which look to add to the original motion. Because there's no escaping the effect that this reduction to business rates relief will have, especially on the hospitality sector, a sector that is already operating in a difficult environment for a number of reasons.
To speak to our amendments, the key thing about NDR is that we are talking about a system that simply doesn't work, and that is what amendment 3 seeks to acknowledge. NDR hasn't moved with the times, and that's why we're now in a situation where we pay relief to businesses. I've mentioned the need for reform a number of times. The Government has said it's working on something, so I would be grateful if the Minister can explicitly outline today when we can expect to see anything on reform, because it is overdue.
One suggestion I would make, and I would appreciate some reflections from the Minister on this, is what I would like to see is the Government looking at the proportions that each sector pays into NDR and assess whether some are paying too little or too much. For example, we talk a lot about town-centre regeneration. That's always going to be a challenge while this system exists, but an added challenge comes from out-of-town shopping centres and supermarkets, to pick on just two examples. So, should we now be reviewing the rates that sectors pay, so that, for example, supermarkets pay more into the system in order to then lower the amount that a sector like hospitality would pay into the system? At the same time we do that, I would also argue that we need to also address the imbalance between brick-and-mortar businesses and those ones that operate online. So, some reflections on that would also be welcome.
Now, of course, we understand and hear from Ministers how there is no cash left. So, are these potential solutions that will have an initial administrative cost? Yes, but a huge impact on local SMEs in our communities.
Diolch, Lywydd. Rwy'n gwneud y gwelliannau a gyflwynwyd gan Blaid Cymru, sy'n ceisio ychwanegu at y cynnig gwreiddiol. Oherwydd nid oes dianc rhag yr effaith y bydd y gostyngiad hwn i ryddhad ardrethi busnes yn ei chael, yn enwedig ar y sector lletygarwch, sector sydd eisoes yn gweithredu mewn amgylchedd anodd am nifer o resymau.
Os caf siarad am ein gwelliannau, y peth allweddol am ardrethi annomestig yw ein bod yn siarad am system nad yw'n gweithio, a dyna mae gwelliant 3 yn ceisio ei gydnabod. Nid yw ardrethi annomestig wedi symud gyda'r oes, a dyna pam ein bod bellach mewn sefyllfa lle rydym yn talu rhyddhad i fusnesau. Rwyf wedi sôn am yr angen am ddiwygio nifer o weithiau. Mae'r Llywodraeth wedi dweud ei bod yn gweithio ar rywbeth, felly buaswn yn ddiolchgar pe gallai'r Gweinidog amlinellu'n bendant heddiw pryd y gallwn ddisgwyl gweld unrhyw beth ar ddiwygio, oherwydd mae'n hen bryd iddo ddigwydd.
Un awgrym yr hoffwn ei wneud, ac y buaswn yn gwerthfawrogi syniadau'r Gweinidog arno, yw i'r Llywodraeth edrych ar y cyfrannau y mae pob sector yn eu talu i mewn i ardrethi annomestig ac asesu a yw rhai yn talu rhy ychydig neu ormod. Er enghraifft, rydym yn siarad llawer am adfywio canol y dref. Mae hynny bob amser yn mynd i fod yn her tra bod y system hon yn bodoli, ond daw her ychwanegol gan ganolfannau siopa ac archfarchnadoedd y tu allan i'r dref, i ddewis dwy enghraifft yn unig. Felly, a ddylem fod yn adolygu'r ardrethi y mae sectorau'n eu talu nawr, fel bod archfarchnadoedd, er enghraifft, yn talu mwy i'r system er mwyn gostwng y swm y byddai sector fel lletygarwch yn ei dalu i mewn i'r system? Ar yr un pryd, buaswn yn dadlau hefyd fod angen inni fynd i'r afael â'r anghydbwysedd rhwng busnesau brics a morter a'r rhai sy'n gweithredu ar-lein. Felly, buaswn yn croesawu unrhyw sylwadau ar hynny hefyd.
Nawr, wrth gwrs, rydym yn deall ac yn clywed gan Weinidogion sut nad oes arian ar ôl. Felly, a fyddai'r atebion posibl hyn yn rhai y byddai cost weinyddol gychwynnol ynghlwm wrthynt? Byddent, ond byddent yn cael effaith enfawr ar fusnesau bach a chanolig lleol yn ein cymunedau.
Will you give way?
A wnewch chi ildio?
Yes, of course.
Gwnaf, wrth gwrs.
Can I say that online is the real danger to retail, and that’s got to be addressed? The other thing is: how about a rent freeze? As you know as well as I do, the pub companies' continued increase rents make pubs unviable. That’s why a lot of those pubs are closing, Peter Fox—it's because the people who own them are making them too expensive for the people who run them to run them.
A gaf i ddweud mai ar-lein yw'r perygl gwirioneddol i fanwerthu, ac mae'n rhaid mynd i'r afael â hynny? Y peth arall yw: beth am rewi rhent? Fel y gwyddoch gystal â minnau, mae rhenti cynyddol parhaus y cwmnïau tafarndai yn gwneud tafarndai yn anhyfyw. Dyna pam fod llawer o'r tafarndai hynny'n cau, Peter Fox—mae'n digwydd oherwydd bod y bobl sy'n berchen arnynt yn eu gwneud yn rhy ddrud i'r bobl sy'n eu rhedeg i'w rhedeg.
I think there is a point to consider there. I’ve talked before in the Chamber, and I know a number of Members will probably roll their eyes at this now, but when I used to work in the sector, one of the things that we would notice with pubs especially was that they'd be hammered essentially by the breweries that owned them simply because those breweries are in debt. So, there's a specific thing there that needs to be addressed around the debts that breweries hold and how that affects local pubs, specifically. But in terms of the suggestions that I’ve put to you, Minister, I would be grateful for some reflections on that in your response.
Rwy'n credu bod pwynt i'w ystyried yno. Rwyf wedi siarad o'r blaen yn y Siambr, ac rwy'n gwybod y bydd nifer o'r Aelodau yn debygol o rowlio eu llygaid ar hyn nawr, ond pan oeddwn i'n arfer gweithio yn y sector, un o'r pethau y byddem yn sylwi arnynt gyda thafarndai yn enwedig oedd y byddent yn cael eu taro i bob pwrpas gan y bragdai a oedd yn berchen arnynt a hynny oherwydd bod y bragdai hynny mewn dyled. Felly, mae rhywbeth penodol yno sy'n galw am sylw, yn ymwneud â'r dyledion sydd gan fragdai a sut mae hynny'n effeithio ar dafarndai lleol yn benodol. Ond o ran yr awgrymiadau a roddais i chi, Weinidog, buaswn yn ddiolchgar am eich syniadau ynglŷn â hynny yn eich ymateb.
Now, we know, and our businesses know, that Welsh Labour in Wales boasts the highest business rates in the UK. They are unfrozen and, unlike in Conservative England, rising frequently. Alongside this, the Welsh Government's physical negligence has forced them to look here, there and everywhere for coppers to spare as a result of their own massive overspends on vanity projects, 20 mph blanket bans to name but one. Tonight, as I'm stood up here, there will be Conservative councillors in Conwy County Borough Council trying to persuade the council to do a u-turn on some of these 20 mph bans.
Now, despite only yesterday my emphasising the crucial role of small businesses in Wales, especially with tourism employing 12 per cent of our workforce and contributing approximately £2.4 billion to our GDP, Welsh Labour persists in their determination to reduce business rate relief by almost half. Now, this comes at a time, Minister, when you and I both know a number of hospitality businesses have already closed since the start of the year. With more pubs and things closing—I think it was my colleague Peter Fox who said something like one a week—that tells you a lot about the economy of your nation and where you are failing. When you start to see these kinds of businesses close, it’s obvious that you need to come forward now with a support package, not actually roll the rug from under their feet.
Nawr, rydym yn gwybod, ac mae ein busnesau'n gwybod, mai Llafur Cymru yng Nghymru sydd â'r ardrethi busnes uchaf yn y DU. Ni chânt eu rhewi ac yn wahanol i Loegr Geidwadol, maent yn codi'n aml. Ochr yn ochr â hyn, mae esgeulustod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi eu gorfodi i edrych yma, acw ac ym mhobman am geiniogau sbâr o ganlyniad i'w gorwariant enfawr eu hunain ar brosiectau porthi balchder, gwaharddiadau 20 mya cyffredinol i enwi un yn unig. Heno, wrth imi sefyll yma, bydd cynghorwyr Ceidwadol yng Nghyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Conwy yn ceisio perswadio'r cyngor i wneud tro pedol ar rai o'r gwaharddiadau 20 mya hyn.
Nawr, er imi bwysleisio ddoe ddiwethaf rôl hanfodol busnesau bach yng Nghymru, yn enwedig gyda thwristiaeth yn cyflogi 12 y cant o'n gweithlu ac yn cyfrannu tua £2.4 biliwn i'n cynnyrch domestig gros, mae Llafur Cymru yn parhau gyda'u penderfyniad i leihau rhyddhad ardrethi busnes bron i hanner. Nawr, daw hyn ar adeg, Weinidog, pan ydych chi a minnau'n gwybod bod nifer o fusnesau lletygarwch eisoes wedi cau ers dechrau'r flwyddyn. Gyda mwy o dafarndai a phethau'n cau—rwy'n meddwl bod fy nghyd-Aelod Peter Fox wedi dweud ei fod yn rhywbeth tebyg i un yr wythnos—mae hynny'n dweud llawer wrthych am economi eich gwlad a lle rydych chi'n methu. Pan fyddwch chi'n dechrau gweld y mathau hyn o fusnesau'n cau, mae'n amlwg fod angen i chi gyflwyno pecyn cymorth, ac nid tynnu'r mat o dan eu traed.
Janet, will you take an intervention?
Janet, a wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?
Yes.
Gwnaf.
There are local businesses in my region, with one pub owner saying that, basically, this reduced discount is a hammer blow for the industry and for him particularly. Another, 57 Bridge Street in Usk, has also said the Welsh Government is crippling an already struggling industry. Don't you think it's wise for the Government, if they won't listen to us, to listen to the businesses in Wales?
Mae yna fusnesau lleol yn fy rhanbarth i, gydag un perchennog tafarn yn dweud, yn y bôn, fod y gostyngiad llai hwn yn ergyd drom i'r diwydiant ac iddo ef yn arbennig. Mae un arall, 57 Stryd y Bont ym Mrynbuga, wedi dweud hefyd fod Llywodraeth Cymru yn llyffetheirio diwydiant sydd eisoes yn ei chael hi'n anodd. Os nad ydynt am wrando arnom ni, onid ydych chi'n credu y byddai'n ddoeth i'r Llywodraeth wrando ar y busnesau yng Nghymru?
Thanks, Laura. The businesses actually need you now, Minister, more than ever. With increased inflation, food costs and energy costs, they are really in a desperate situation. Shocking figures show that, last year, Wales lost 63 pubs. It is estimated that around 770 jobs have been lost with these closures. At a time when businesses are looking for support, the Welsh Government are determined to double down on Welsh hospitality and tourism by cutting this relief. The often ask me, 'What more do they expect us to take?' As Kate Nicholls, UKHospitality chief executive, said, we're
'Already seeing 10% higher failure rate in Wales'
but with business rate support being slashed to less than half of what it was, that will just accelerate the decline. This represents nothing more than gross negligence, a shambles of a budget that is a death sentence to many businesses. Unlike the UK Government, rather than working on ways to cut national insurance, freeze business rates, maintaining relief, Welsh Labour and Plaid Cymru are busy brainstorming novel ways to bankrupt our businesses.
The rates multiplier for Wales has been set at 56.2p, and that's even an increase—when we used to moan about that figure, you've actually put it up an extra 2.7p. This means that Wales will continue to have these highest business rates. Wales is the only nation to have a flat business rates multiplier, where other nations do have different rates for small and larger businesses. There is no fairness in this current approach to our businesses by you as a Welsh Government. Remember, for every one of our businesses, they usually do employ other people. This is shortsighted, and, again, it takes me and my group to remind you that the Welsh Conservatives are on the side of our residents and, indeed, our business owners.
Diolch, Laura. Mae'r busnesau eich angen chi nawr yn fwy nag erioed, Weinidog. Gyda chwyddiant cynyddol, costau bwyd a chostau ynni, maent mewn sefyllfa enbyd. Mae ffigyrau brawychus yn dangos bod Cymru, y llynedd, wedi colli 63 o dafarndai. Amcangyfrifir bod tua 770 o swyddi wedi'u colli wrth iddynt gau. Ar adeg pan fo busnesau'n chwilio am gefnogaeth, mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn benderfynol o osod pwysau ar letygarwch a thwristiaeth Cymru drwy dorri'r rhyddhad hwn. Maent yn aml yn gofyn i mi, 'Beth arall maent yn disgwyl i ni ei gymryd?' Fel y dywedodd Kate Nicholls, prif weithredwr UKHospitality, rydym
'Eisoes yn gweld cyfradd methiant 10 y cant yn uwch yng Nghymru'
ond gyda chymorth ardrethi busnes yn cael ei dorri i lai na hanner yr hyn ydoedd, ni fydd hynny ond yn cyflymu'r dirywiad. Nid yw hyn yn ddim mwy nag esgeulustod difrifol, cyllideb sy'n draed moch ac yn ddedfryd marwolaeth i lawer o fusnesau. Yn wahanol i Lywodraeth y DU, yn hytrach na gweithio ar ffyrdd o dorri yswiriant gwladol, rhewi ardrethi busnes, cynnal rhyddhad, mae Llafur Cymru a Phlaid Cymru yn brysur yn taflu syniadau am ffyrdd newydd o wneud ein busnesau'n fethdalwyr.
Mae'r lluosydd ardrethi ar gyfer Cymru wedi'i osod ar 56.2c, ac mae hwnnw'n gynnydd hyd yn oed—pan arferem gwyno am y ffigur hwnnw, rydych wedi ei godi 2.7c ychwanegol. Mae hyn yn golygu mai gan Gymru fydd yr ardrethi busnes uchaf o hyd. Cymru yw'r unig wlad i gael lluosydd ardrethi busnes gwastad, lle mae gan wledydd eraill ardrethi gwahanol ar gyfer busnesau bach a mwy. Nid oes tegwch yn eich dull presennol chi fel Llywodraeth Cymru o ymdrin â'n busnesau. Cofiwch, am bob un o'n busnesau, maent fel arfer yn cyflogi pobl eraill. Mae hyn yn annoeth, ac unwaith eto, mae angen i mi a fy ngrŵp eich atgoffa bod y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig ar ochr ein trigolion, a'n perchnogion busnesau yn wir.
I have some sympathy with what Luke Fletcher said about the multiplier, and I followed closely the finance Minister's answers a few weeks ago—maybe even last week—when she said that there are plans to look at the multiplier. You can only change it once in a year, and the geographical spread needs to be considered, so I do look forward to hearing responses on that.
But we do need some context to this debate as well, and Peter Fox talked about global instability. It's more than that, isn't it? Let's be frank, it's been 14 years of endless austerity. Austerity began as a political choice when inflation was zero. There was no inflation—
Mae gennyf rywfaint o gydymdeimlad â'r hyn a ddywedodd Luke Fletcher am y lluosydd, a dilynais atebion y Gweinidog cyllid yn agos ychydig wythnosau'n ôl—yr wythnos diwethaf efallai—pan ddywedodd fod cynlluniau i edrych ar y lluosydd. Unwaith mewn blwyddyn yn unig y gallwch ei newid, ac mae angen ystyried y dosbarthiad daearyddol, felly rwy'n edrych ymlaen at glywed ymatebion ar hynny.
Ond mae angen rhywfaint o gyd-destun i'r ddadl hon hefyd, a siaradodd Peter Fox am ansefydlogrwydd byd-eang. Mae'n fwy na hynny, onid yw? Gadewch inni fod yn onest, mae wedi bod yn 14 mlynedd o gyni diddiwedd. Dechreuodd cyni fel dewis gwleidyddol pan oedd chwyddiant yn sero. Nid oedd chwyddiant—
Will you take an intervention?
A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?
Can you just give me two seconds? I've only got three minutes as it stands. Inflation was at zero and austerity happened. We've also had Brexit added to that, which were all political choices made by the UK Treasury. So, I'll give you an intervention, then.
A wnewch chi roi dwy eiliad i mi? Dim ond tair munud sydd gennyf fel y mae. Roedd chwyddiant yn sero a digwyddodd cyni. Gwelsom ychwanegu Brexit at hynny, ac roedd y rhain i gyd yn ddewisiadau gwleidyddol a wnaed gan Drysorlys y DU. Fe adawaf i chi wneud ymyriad.
Thank you. The waste separation Act now is also another burden for our businesses, because they've now got to separate, put it in different receptacles—another further cost, and you can understand why they ask. Do you actually agree with that—that they've been given this overburdensome bureaucracy and cost once again?
Diolch. Mae'r Ddeddf gwahanu gwastraff nawr hefyd yn faich arall ar ein busnesau, oherwydd mae'n rhaid iddynt ei wahanu erbyn hyn, ei roi mewn gwahanol gynwysyddion—cost arall eto, a gallwch ddeall pam eu bod yn gofyn. A ydych chi'n cytuno â hynny mewn gwirionedd—eu bod wedi cael y fiwrocratiaeth lethol hon a chostau unwaith eto?
I think local authorities will have a cost but the idea of waste separation is that it makes it easier at the point of recycling for that to happen, and that eventually reduces costs down the line. But I don't think that's about this; this is about the wider context. The International Monetary Fund, for example, has issued a strong warning to Jeremy Hunt against cutting these taxes in March. You mentioned cutting taxes, Janet Finch-Saunders, but what the International Monetary Fund has said is you need to boost spending instead. An IMF spokesman said,
'Preserving high-quality public services and undertaking critical public investments to boost growth and achieve the net zero targets, will imply higher spending needs over the medium term than are currently reflected in the government’s budget plans.'
So, therefore, if you approach a tax-cutting economic policy from the UK Treasury at a time when public services are on their knees, there is going to be a disaster, and that is why this Government is protecting the NHS, protecting social care, and local authorities' budgets in schools; those three areas are being protected as a result of this, but we should also add that the multiplier is being capped at 5 per cent, which otherwise would be 6.7 per cent cross this year. So, the Welsh Government has taken action. That's costing £18 million. You asked where did the differential come in from the Barnett formula. That's where the differential goes. It is happening, and that is a fairer way to do it.
I think it's incredibly difficult, and I think the finance Minister's actually making a very brave choice to protect our NHS. The only way you can have functioning public services—I don't even mean world-class or good public services, but functioning public services—is if those budgets are protected. In my constituency, I've spoken to businesses. They are of course disappointed, but they recognise that this was always a temporary measure and that the multiplier cap is a positive difference as well. So, it's difficult choices being made. I think that is the business of Government and it's very easy to criticise from the position of opposition.
Rwy'n credu y bydd gan awdurdodau lleol gost ond y syniad gyda gwahanu gwastraff yw ei fod yn ei gwneud hi'n haws i ailgylchu ddigwydd yn y man ailgylchu, ac yn y pen draw mae'n lleihau costau i lawr y lein. Ond nid wyf yn credu bod a wnelo hynny â hyn; mae hyn yn ymwneud â'r cyd-destun ehangach. Mae'r Gronfa Ariannol Ryngwladol, yr IMF, er enghraifft, wedi cyhoeddi rhybudd cryf i Jeremy Hunt yn erbyn torri'r trethi hyn ym mis Mawrth. Fe wnaethoch chi sôn am dorri trethi, Janet Finch-Saunders, ond yr hyn y mae'r Gronfa Ariannol Ryngwladol wedi'i ddweud yw bod angen i chi roi hwb i wariant yn lle hynny. Dywedodd llefarydd ar ran yr IMF:
'Bydd diogelu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus o ansawdd uchel ac ymgymryd â buddsoddiadau cyhoeddus hanfodol i hybu twf a chyflawni'r targedau sero net yn golygu bod anghenion gwariant yn uwch dros y tymor canolig nag sy'n cael ei adlewyrchu yng nghynlluniau cyllidebol y llywodraeth ar hyn o bryd.'
Felly, os dilynwch bolisi economaidd sy'n torri trethi gan Drysorlys y DU ar adeg pan fo gwasanaethau cyhoeddus ar eu gliniau, mae'n mynd i fod yn drychineb, a dyna pam mae'r Llywodraeth hon yn diogelu'r GIG, yn diogelu gofal cymdeithasol, a chyllidebau awdurdodau lleol mewn ysgolion; mae'r tri maes hynny'n cael eu diogelu o ganlyniad i hyn, ond dylem hefyd ychwanegu bod y lluosydd yn cael ei gapio ar 5 y cant, a fyddai fel arall yn 6.7 y cant eleni. Felly, mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gweithredu. Mae hynny'n costio £18 miliwn. Fe wnaethoch chi ofyn o ble y daeth y gwahaniaeth i mewn o fformiwla Barnett. Dyna lle mae'r gwahaniaeth yn mynd. Mae'n digwydd, ac mae honno'n ffordd decach o'i wneud.
Rwy'n credu ei bod yn anhygoel o anodd, ac rwy'n credu bod y Gweinidog cyllid yn gwneud dewis dewr iawn i ddiogelu ein GIG. Yr unig ffordd y gallwch gael gwasanaethau cyhoeddus sy'n gweithredu—nid wyf yn golygu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus o'r radd flaenaf neu dda hyd yn oed, ond gwasanaethau cyhoeddus gweithredol—yw os yw'r cyllidebau hynny'n cael eu diogelu. Yn fy etholaeth i, rwyf wedi siarad â busnesau. Maent yn siomedig wrth gwrs, ond maent yn cydnabod mai mesur dros dro oedd hwn bob amser a bod y cap ar y lluosydd yn wahaniaeth cadarnhaol hefyd. Felly, mae dewisiadau anodd yn cael eu gwneud. Rwy'n credu mai dyna yw gwaith y Llywodraeth ac mae'n hawdd iawn beirniadu o feinciau'r wrthblaid.
I'm grateful for the opportunity to voice my concerns on the part of small businesses, not just in the Vale of Clwyd, but across Wales. We should be clear that the cuts to business rates relief from 75 per cent to 40 per cent in the retail, leisure and hospitality sector is a punishment for small and medium-sized businesses—family-owned shops, cafes, pubs and restaurants—whereas large corporations registered overseas will be largely unaffected. This is an added burden to the smallest enterprises in Wales, which are the backbone of the Welsh economy. Small and medium enterprises constitute 99.3 per cent of all businesses in Wales. I'll just reiterate that—99.3 per cent.
I heard Members in the draft budget debate making the claim that rate relief is a handout to prop up businesses. We need to remind ourselves that rate relief is not a handout but rather a reduction in the amount that we already take from businesses. These are businesses that have been struggling through COVID and need the state to get off their back to give them room to breathe in order to recover to pre-COVID levels of productivity. A PwC report shows that productivity is lower per capita in Wales than the national post-COVID average. This should be a cause for concern for the Welsh Government, who should be pulling out all of the stops to shore up the Welsh economy. Instead, they are plundering their reserves for vanity schemes whilst the high street continues to perish. The 2021 PwC report also shows that productivity in Wales is buoyed by Cardiff. The figures for north Wales are particularly dire. The more that the Welsh Government asks ratepayers to pay, the less productive those same businesses will be, and more businesses will shut their doors, as we have seen over the last few years. Business rates revenue will inevitably go down. That is not just my opinion; we have heard from business leaders who tell us that the reduction in the business rates relief puts Welsh businesses at a significant disadvantage compared to their English counterparts, where the 75 per cent relief has been extended for a further year.
To close, there has been a growing appetite for an overhaul of business rates more generally, which the UK is rather unique in having. Most European countries do not have business rates. It is a tax on small high-street businesses, with large online vendors and the wealthiest corporations unaffected. But that is more of a debate for another day, I think. So, it almost beggars belief that the Welsh Government sees it as appropriate to cut business rate relief in order to claw back some cash, particularly when they are spending £33 million on the 20 mph roll-out and £25 million of a universal basic income pilot scheme that isn't going anywhere. That is why I will be voting with our motion tonight. Thank you.
Rwy'n ddiolchgar am y cyfle i leisio fy mhryderon ar ran busnesau bach, nid yn unig yn Nyffryn Clwyd, ond ledled Cymru. Dylem fod yn glir fod y toriadau i ryddhad ardrethi busnes o 75 y cant i 40 y cant yn y sector manwerthu, hamdden a lletygarwch yn gosb i fusnesau bach a chanolig eu maint—siopau teuluol, caffis, tafarndai a bwytai—lle na fydd corfforaethau mawr sydd wedi'u cofrestru dramor yn cael eu heffeithio i raddau helaeth. Mae hyn yn faich ychwanegol ar y mentrau lleiaf yng Nghymru, sef asgwrn cefn economi Cymru. Mentrau bach a chanolig yw 99.3 y cant o holl fusnesau Cymru. Fe wnaf ailadrodd hynny—99.3 y cant.
Clywais yr Aelodau yn y ddadl ar y gyllideb ddrafft yn gwneud yr honiad fod rhyddhad ardrethi yn rhodd i gynnal busnesau. Mae angen inni atgoffa ein hunain nad rhodd yw rhyddhad ardrethi ond yn hytrach, gostyngiad yn y swm yr ydym eisoes yn ei gymryd gan fusnesau. Mae'r rhain yn fusnesau sydd wedi bod yn cael trafferth trwy COVID ac sydd angen i'r wladwriaeth roi lle iddynt anadlu er mwyn ymadfer i lefelau cynhyrchiant cyn COVID. Mae adroddiad gan PwC yn dangos bod cynhyrchiant yn is y pen yng Nghymru na'r cyfartaledd cenedlaethol ar ôl COVID. Dylai hyn fod yn destun pryder i Lywodraeth Cymru, a ddylai fod yn gwneud popeth i wella economi Cymru. Yn hytrach, maent yn ysbeilio eu cronfeydd wrth gefn ar gynlluniau porthi balchder tra bod y stryd fawr yn parhau i ddirywio. Mae adroddiad PwC 2021 hefyd yn dangos bod cynhyrchiant Cymru yn cael ei chwyddo gan Gaerdydd. Mae'r ffigurau ar gyfer y gogledd yn arbennig o enbyd. Po fwyaf y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn gofyn i drethdalwyr ei dalu, y lleiaf cynhyrchiol fydd y busnesau hynny, a bydd mwy o fusnesau'n cau eu drysau, fel y gwelsom dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf. Mae'n anochel y bydd refeniw ardrethi busnes yn gostwng. Nid fy marn i yn unig yw hyn; rydym wedi clywed gan arweinwyr busnes sy'n dweud wrthym fod y gostyngiad yn y rhyddhad ardrethi busnes yn rhoi busnesau Cymru dan anfantais sylweddol o gymharu â'u cymheiriaid yn Lloegr, lle mae'r rhyddhad o 75 y cant wedi'i ymestyn am flwyddyn arall.
I orffen, gwelwyd awydd cynyddol i ailwampio ardrethi busnes yn fwy cyffredinol, ac mae'r DU yn eithaf unigryw yn yr ystyr nad oes gan y mwyafrif o wledydd Ewrop ardrethi busnes. Mae'n dreth ar fusnesau bach y stryd fawr, gyda gwerthwyr mawr ar-lein a'r corfforaethau cyfoethocaf heb eu heffeithio. Ond mae honno'n ddadl ar gyfer diwrnod arall, rwy'n credu. Felly, mae bron yn anghredadwy fod Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei hystyried yn briodol torri rhyddhad ardrethi busnes er mwyn adfachu rhywfaint o arian, yn enwedig pan fyddant yn gwario £33 miliwn ar y broses o gyflwyno 20 mya a £25 miliwn ar gynllun peilot incwm sylfaenol cyffredinol nad yw'n mynd i unman. Dyna pam y byddaf yn pleidleisio o blaid ein cynnig heno. Diolch.
Y Gweinidog cyllid nawr i gyfrannu i'r ddadl—Rebecca Evans.
The Minister for finance now to contribute to the debate—Rebecca Evans.
Diolch, Llywydd. The Welsh Government recognises the ongoing economic challenges faced by ratepayers, but I think we also have to recognise that all citizens and public services in Wales are also exposed to similar pressures. Non-domestic rates are a really vital part of the local government finance system, raising more than £1.1 billion annually, and that's not a trivial contribution to the funding required to sustain the services that we all rely on, nor indeed is it a trivial contribution to the Welsh Government's overall annual budget. I say to colleagues again: if we're looking to provide additional support in one area, it is really important now at this stage, as we move towards the final budget, to be identifying those areas where you would move funding from.
And as colleagues know, our budget for 2024-25 has been developed in the toughest financial situation that we've faced since devolution, with a settlement from the UK Government that simply isn't sufficient to address all of the pressures on our budget that our public services, our businesses and, of course, individuals are also facing. So, we have had to make some really difficult decisions to refocus our funding towards core front-line public services.
But, despite this context, we'll still provide non-domestic rates support worth £384 million—more than a third of a billion pounds from the Welsh Government in rates support. That is certainly a significant investment in businesses in Wales. Since 2018-19, we've prevented or limited multiplier increases every year, and that has saved ratepayers in Wales hundreds of millions of pounds compared to the revenue that we would otherwise be raising.
Our decision to cap inflation of the multiplier at 5 per cent for next year comes at an additional recurring cost of £18 million to the Welsh budget. That's £18 million next year and every year after that as a result of the support that we are providing through that 5 per cent cap.
We're also investing £78 million to provide that fifth successive year of rate relief for retail, leisure and hospitality businesses in 2024-25. And let's remember that that was always a temporary scheme and businesses would not have been factoring in any relief of that sort into their plans for the next financial year. This, of course, builds on what's been almost £1 billion of support provided to businesses since the onset of the pandemic. A new £20 million capital fund is also being developed to help these sectors futureproof their businesses, and we hope to be able to say more about that fund shortly.
So, through our generous package of reliefs, almost half of all ratepayers in Wales, including thousands of small businesses, benefit from full rates relief. When partial support is included as well, ratepayers for more than 80 per cent of properties will benefit from relief in 2024-25. That equates to 104,000 properties across Wales, or, to put it another way, less than 20 per cent of properties will attract full rates.
Looking forward, we are on track to deliver the programme of reforms that I set out for this Senedd term. The Local Government Finance (Wales) Bill has been introduced to deliver the range of specific proposals that we consulted on in 2022. And those include more frequent revaluations, which businesses have been asking us for; improved information flows between ratepayers and the Valuation Office Agency; reviewing the existing package of reliefs and exemptions; the potential to vary the multiplier, because, as we've heard, our ability to move in that area is very limited, so in future Ministers could bring forward proposals where they could change multipliers for particular types of business or in particular areas of Wales; and also to improve the accuracy of the ratings list and address issues of fraud and avoidance, and, of course, we've been undertaking quite a lot of work over recent years on fraud and avoidance and making some really good progress in that space as well.
It's also important to recognise that our plans also include further exploring a local land value tax as a possible replacement for non-domestic rates. That would be a major undertaking, requiring some really significant investment, so it is really important that we understand the costs, the risks and the impacts of that. And I have set out my intention to produce a road map in this Senedd term. It is too early at the moment to say whether this is a change that we should pursue in the longer term, but, you know, it would need to be demonstrably better than the system that we have at the moment, but we are exploring it.
So, whilst our interventions demonstrate that the non-domestic rates system is one tool available to support businesses, we must remember that the purpose of local taxes is to raise revenue for crucial local services. I am committed to reforming the system and it's important to recognise our £384 million package of support is fully funded by the Welsh Government. It's the result of difficult and carefully considered decisions in the context of a finite and challenging budget. So, I urge Members to vote for the Government amendment.
Diolch, Lywydd. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn cydnabod yr heriau economaidd parhaus sy'n wynebu trethdalwyr, ond rwy'n credu bod yn rhaid inni hefyd gydnabod bod pob dinesydd a gwasanaeth cyhoeddus yng Nghymru hefyd yn agored i bwysau tebyg. Mae ardrethi annomestig yn rhan wirioneddol hanfodol o system gyllid llywodraeth leol, gan godi mwy na £1.1 biliwn bob blwyddyn, ac nid yw hwnnw'n gyfraniad dibwys i'r cyllid sydd ei angen i gynnal y gwasanaethau y mae pawb ohonom yn dibynnu arnynt, ac nid yw ychwaith yn gyfraniad dibwys i gyllideb flynyddol gyffredinol Llywodraeth Cymru. Rwy'n dweud wrth ein cyd-Aelodau eto: os ydym eisiau darparu cymorth ychwanegol mewn un maes, mae'n bwysig iawn ar y cam hwn nawr, wrth inni symud tuag at y gyllideb derfynol, eich bod yn nodi'r meysydd y byddech yn symud cyllid ohonynt.
Ac fel y gŵyr fy nghyd-Aelodau, mae ein cyllideb ar gyfer 2024-25 wedi'i datblygu yn ystod y sefyllfa ariannol anoddaf i ni ei hwynebu ers datganoli, gyda setliad gan Lywodraeth y DU nad yw'n ddigonol i fynd i'r afael â'r holl bwysau ar ein cyllideb y mae ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, ein busnesau, ac unigolion wrth gwrs, yn eu hwynebu hefyd. Felly, bu'n rhaid i ni wneud penderfyniadau anodd iawn i ailffocysu ein cyllid ar wasanaethau cyhoeddus rheng flaen craidd.
Ond er y cyd-destun hwn, byddwn yn dal i ddarparu cymorth ardrethi annomestig gwerth £384 miliwn—mwy na thraean o biliwn o bunnoedd gan Lywodraeth Cymru mewn cymorth ardrethi. Mae hwnnw'n sicr yn fuddsoddiad sylweddol mewn busnesau yng Nghymru. Ers 2018-19, rydym wedi atal neu wedi cyfyngu ar gynnydd yn y lluosydd bob blwyddyn, ac mae hynny wedi arbed cannoedd o filiynau o bunnoedd i drethdalwyr yng Nghymru o'i gymharu â'r refeniw y byddem yn ei godi fel arall.
Daw ein penderfyniad i gapio cynnydd y lluosydd ar 5 y cant ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf ar gost reolaidd ychwanegol o £18 miliwn i gyllideb Cymru. Dyna £18 miliwn y flwyddyn nesaf a phob blwyddyn ar ôl hynny o ganlyniad i'r gefnogaeth yr ydym yn ei darparu drwy'r cap o 5 y cant.
Rydym hefyd yn buddsoddi £78 miliwn i ddarparu'r bumed flwyddyn olynol o ryddhad ardrethi i fusnesau manwerthu, hamdden a lletygarwch yn 2024-25. A gadewch inni gofio mai cynllun dros dro oedd hwnnw bob amser ac na fyddai busnesau wedi cynnwys unrhyw ryddhad o'r math hwnnw yn eu cynlluniau ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf. Mae hyn, wrth gwrs, yn adeiladu ar bron i £1 biliwn o gymorth a ddarparwyd i fusnesau ers dechrau'r pandemig. Hefyd, mae cronfa gyfalaf newydd gwerth £20 miliwn yn cael ei datblygu i helpu'r sectorau hyn i ddiogelu eu busnesau ar gyfer y dyfodol, ac rydym yn gobeithio gallu dweud mwy am y gronfa honno cyn bo hir.
Felly, drwy ein pecyn rhyddhad hael, mae bron i hanner yr holl drethdalwyr yng Nghymru, gan gynnwys miloedd o fusnesau bach, yn elwa o ryddhad ardrethi llawn. Pan gynhwysir cymorth rhannol hefyd, bydd trethdalwyr ar fwy nag 80 y cant o eiddo yn elwa o ryddhad yn 2024-25. Mae hynny'n 104,000 eiddo ledled Cymru, neu o'i roi mewn ffordd arall, bydd ardrethi llawn i'w talu ar lai nag 20 y cant o eiddo.
Wrth edrych ymlaen, rydym ar y trywydd iawn i gyflawni'r rhaglen ddiwygiadau a nodais ar gyfer tymor y Senedd hon. Mae'r Bil Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) wedi'i gyflwyno i gyflawni'r ystod o gynigion penodol y gwnaethom ymgynghori arnynt yn 2022. Ac mae'r rheini'n cynnwys ailbrisiadau amlach, y mae busnesau wedi bod yn gofyn i ni amdanynt; gwell llif gwybodaeth rhwng trethdalwyr ac Asiantaeth y Swyddfa Brisio; adolygu'r pecyn presennol o ryddhad ac esemptiadau; y potensial i amrywio'r lluosydd, oherwydd, fel y clywsom, mae ein gallu i symud yn hynny o beth yn gyfyngedig iawn, felly yn y dyfodol gallai Gweinidogion gyflwyno cynigion lle gallent newid lluosyddion ar gyfer mathau penodol o fusnesau neu mewn ardaloedd penodol yng Nghymru; a gwella cywirdeb y rhestr ardrethi a mynd i'r afael â materion twyll ac osgoi, ac wrth gwrs, rydym wedi bod yn gwneud cryn dipyn o waith dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf ar dwyll ac osgoi ac yn gwneud cynnydd da iawn yn y maes hwnnw hefyd.
Mae'n bwysig cydnabod hefyd fod ein cynlluniau'n cynnwys edrych ymhellach ar dreth leol ar werth tir yn lle ardrethi annomestig. Byddai hynny'n ymgymeriad mawr, a fyddai'n galw am fuddsoddiad sylweddol iawn, felly mae'n bwysig iawn ein bod yn deall costau, risgiau ac effeithiau hynny. Ac rwyf wedi nodi fy mwriad i lunio cynllun yn nhymor y Senedd hon. Mae'n rhy gynnar ar hyn o bryd i ddweud a yw hwn yn newid y dylem fynd ar ei drywydd yn fwy hirdymor, a byddai angen iddo fod yn amlwg yn well na'r system sydd gennym ar hyn o bryd, ond rydym yn edrych arno.
Felly, er bod ein hymyriadau'n dangos bod y system ardrethi annomestig yn un offeryn sydd ar gael i gefnogi busnesau, rhaid inni gofio mai pwrpas trethi lleol yw codi refeniw ar gyfer gwasanaethau lleol hanfodol. Rwyf wedi ymrwymo i ddiwygio'r system ac mae'n bwysig cydnabod bod ein pecyn cymorth gwerth £384 miliwn yn cael ei ariannu'n llawn gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Mae'n ganlyniad penderfyniadau anodd a ystyriwyd yn ofalus yng nghyd-destun cyllideb gyfyngedig a heriol. Felly, rwy'n annog yr Aelodau i bleidleisio dros welliant y Llywodraeth.
Sam Rowlands nawr i ymateb i'r ddadl.
Sam Rowlands now to reply to the debate.
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I'm pleased to be able to close this debate on a very important topic that we've discussed here this afternoon. I think all contributors have acknowledged that thriving businesses are the lifeblood of our communities and it should be an absolute priority for Welsh Government to support and enable businesses to flourish across Wales. Now, unfortunately, we're not seeing that at the moment from the Labour Government here in Cardiff Bay, because, as we've heard, slashing those business rate reliefs from 75 per cent to 40 per cent would sadly cause too many businesses to go under and put serious pressure on many others.
Now, in our debate this evening, Peter Fox opened by outlining, rightly, the numbers that make up the economy here in Wales on this particular issue, with the hospitality sector employing 165,000 people and contributing around £4 billion to the economy. I think Peter Fox also highlighted the retail sector employing around 139,000 people as well. These are big numbers and show how important these businesses are to Wales. And, of course, behind every statistic, as mentioned here today, is an individual, a family, a network that relies on the success of those businesses and the creation of jobs, whether it's a family-run greengrocers or a large pub chain, all making a difference in our communities and for people. Luke Fletcher moved the Plaid Cymru amendments and I thought brought some sensible contributions regarding the review of distribution and who pays the non-domestic rates and at what level and how that looks across Wales. The Minister responded to that point to a certain extent. Luke Fletcher did fail to speak to amendment 2, which talked about the level of funding from UK Government, and these benches will always remind Members in this Chamber that for every £1 spent on public services in England, Welsh Government receives £1.20. So, when there's talk of unfair levels of money, there's a 20 per cent uplift to acknowledge some of the challenges here in Wales.
Janet Finch-Saunders shared with us the figures showing Wales lost more than a pub a week in 2023. I thought some Members in this Chamber would have to declare an interest with losing a pub a week through the last year, with 63 shutting their doors. This was more than double the rate in England, costing 770 Welsh jobs. These job losses are damaging for communities, especially as pubs play such an important role in our local areas as social hubs that bring people together and have served communities for decades and centuries. Laura Anne Jones intervened on Janet Finch-Saunders to talk about some specific establishments in her own region, and I think you quoted—. Laura Anne Jones was saying that the Welsh Government are crippling an already struggling industry. It was a quote from perhaps an owner of a pub in your region. And that is, ironically, a sobering analysis from people actually running those businesses in Wales. They aren't the ones sat in their ivory towers. They are on the ground, creating jobs, risking their livelihoods, trying to improve the experience of people in our villages, towns and cities. I really hope that Welsh Government listen to them very, very carefully.
Hefin David spoke and was keen to highlight the wider challenges in the economy. I think that's a fair point. Productivity continues to be very sluggish here and across the UK. Hefin David also expressed a caution about tax cuts, because of the potential wider impact on public service expenditure. Of course, that's a constant balance, isn't it, and we have to be very careful not to kill the golden goose who lays the egg when it comes to our businesses, who are providing so much in terms of taxation, to ensure that we get these public services delivered in the right way.
Gareth Davies spoke in his contribution on the role, especially, of small and medium-sized businesses being such an important part of our ecosystem here in Wales. I think the percentage you quoted, Gareth, was that 99.3 per cent of all businesses in Wales fall into that category of small and medium-sized, and it's those who will feel some of the harshest brunt of the business rates cut from the Welsh Government. And he pointed to the PwC report in respect to lower productivity, which I think is a debate we probably should have another time in this Chamber, about how we increase productivity here in Wales to make sure we get the most out of our economy.
I'm conscious of time, Llywydd. Minister, you chose to respond by certainly acknowledging the difference that those non-domestic rate payers make to public services in Wales. I think it's good to acknowledge that point. And you wanted to reiterate that point that Hefin David made about balancing taxation with funding those public services, which is a challenging balance, from time to time. You were also keen, Minister, to remind Members of the support that is already in place for those businesses. But I would like to reiterate that point. We've got to get that balance right between that, yes, taxation is something that we pay to fund those public services, but we need to see businesses flourishing. We need people being able to get up in the morning and be confident going into their place of work, into their place of business, that it's going to be successful in the future for them and their families. At the moment, as Conservatives, we feel that that move from 75 per cent to 40 per cent relief is a step too far. Welsh Government has had the money passed to it to reinstate that business rates relief to 75 per cent, and we believe, on these benches, you should do that immediately. So, I hope the Senedd backs our motion here today and votes to back Welsh businesses as well.
Diolch, Lywydd. Rwy'n falch o allu cau'r ddadl hon ar bwnc pwysig iawn a drafodwyd gennym yma y prynhawn yma. Rwy'n credu bod yr holl gyfranwyr wedi cydnabod mai busnesau ffyniannus yw enaid ein cymunedau a dylai cefnogi a galluogi busnesau i dyfu a ffynnu ledled Cymru fod yn flaenoriaeth lwyr i Lywodraeth Cymru. Nawr, yn anffodus, nid ydym yn gweld hynny ar hyn o bryd gan y Llywodraeth Lafur yma ym Mae Caerdydd, oherwydd, fel y clywsom, byddai torri'r rhyddhad ardrethi busnes o 75 y cant i 40 y cant yn peri i ormod o fusnesau fethu ac yn rhoi pwysau difrifol ar lawer o fusnesau eraill.
Nawr, yn ein dadl heno, agorodd Peter Fox drwy amlinellu, yn gywir, y ffigurau sy'n ffurfio'r economi yma yng Nghymru ar y mater penodol hwn, gyda'r sector lletygarwch yn cyflogi 165,000 o bobl ac yn cyfrannu tua £4 biliwn i'r economi. Rwy'n credu bod Peter Fox hefyd wedi tynnu sylw at y sector manwerthu sy'n cyflogi tua 139,000 o bobl. Mae'r rhain yn niferoedd mawr ac yn dangos pa mor bwysig yw'r busnesau hyn i Gymru. Ac wrth gwrs, y tu ôl i bob ystadegyn, fel y crybwyllwyd yma heddiw, mae yna unigolyn, teulu, rhwydwaith sy'n dibynnu ar lwyddiant y busnesau hynny a chreu swyddi, boed yn siop groser deuluol neu'n gadwyn fawr o dafarndai, i gyd yn gwneud gwahaniaeth yn ein cymunedau ac i bobl. Cyflwynodd Luke Fletcher welliannau Plaid Cymru ac roeddwn yn credu iddo wneud cyfraniad synhwyrol ynglŷn â'r adolygiad o ddosbarthiad a phwy sy'n talu'r ardrethi annomestig ac ar ba lefel a sut mae hynny'n edrych ar draws Cymru. Ymatebodd y Gweinidog i'r pwynt hwnnw i ryw raddau. Methodd Luke Fletcher siarad am welliant 2, a soniai am lefel y cyllid gan Lywodraeth y DU, a bydd y meinciau hyn bob amser yn atgoffa'r Aelodau yn y Siambr hon fod Llywodraeth Cymru yn cael £1.20 am bob £1 a werir ar wasanaethau cyhoeddus yn Lloegr. Felly, pan glywn sôn am lefelau annheg o arian, ceir cynnydd o 20 y cant i gydnabod rhai o'r heriau yma yng Nghymru.
Rhannodd Janet Finch-Saunders y ffigurau sy'n dangos bod Cymru wedi colli mwy na thafarn yr wythnos yn 2023. Roeddwn yn meddwl y byddai'n rhaid i rai o'r Aelodau yn y Siambr ddatgan diddordeb yn y ffaith ein bod wedi colli tafarn yr wythnos drwy gydol y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, gyda 63 yn cau eu drysau. Roedd hyn dros ddwbl y gyfradd yn Lloegr, a chollwyd 770 o swyddi yng Nghymru. Mae'r colledion swyddi hyn yn niweidiol i gymunedau, yn enwedig gan fod tafarndai'n chwarae rhan mor bwysig yn ein hardaloedd lleol fel canolfannau cymdeithasol sy'n dod â phobl ynghyd ac maent wedi gwasanaethu cymunedau ers degawdau a chanrifoedd. Gwnaeth Laura Anne Jones ymyriad ar Janet Finch-Saunders i siarad am rai sefydliadau penodol yn ei rhanbarth ei hun, a chredaf eich bod wedi dyfynnu—. Roedd Laura Anne Jones yn dweud bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn llethu diwydiant sydd eisoes yn ei chael hi'n anodd. Roedd yn ddyfyniad efallai gan berchennog tafarn yn eich rhanbarth. Ac mae hwnnw'n ddadansoddiad sobreiddiol, yn ddigon eironig, gan y bobl sy'n rhedeg y busnesau hyn yng Nghymru mewn gwirionedd. Nid y rhai sy'n eistedd yn eu tyrau ifori, ond y rhai ar lawr gwlad, sy'n creu swyddi, yn peryglu eu bywoliaeth, yn ceisio gwella profiad pobl yn ein pentrefi, ein trefi a'n dinasoedd. Rwy'n mawr obeithio y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn gwrando'n ofalus iawn arnynt.
Siaradodd Hefin David ac roedd yn awyddus i dynnu sylw at yr heriau ehangach yn yr economi. Rwy'n credu bod hwnnw'n bwynt teg. Mae cynhyrchiant yn parhau i fod yn araf iawn yma ac ar draws y DU. Mynegodd Hefin David rybudd hefyd am doriadau treth, oherwydd yr effaith ehangach bosibl ar wariant gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Wrth gwrs, mae hynny'n galw am gydbwyso cyson, onid yw, ac mae'n rhaid inni fod yn ofalus iawn i beidio â lladd yr iâr a cholli'r cywion o ran ein busnesau, sy'n darparu cymaint mewn trethiant, i sicrhau ein bod yn cael gwasanaethau cyhoeddus wedi eu darparu yn y ffordd iawn.
Siaradodd Gareth Davies yn ei gyfraniad am rôl busnesau bach a chanolig yn enwedig, sy'n rhan mor bwysig o'n hecosystem yma yng Nghymru. Rwy'n credu mai'r ganran a ddyfynnwyd gennych, Gareth, oedd bod 99.3 y cant o holl fusnesau Cymru yn perthyn i'r categori bach a chanolig, a'r rheini fydd yn teimlo baich trymaf y toriad ardrethi busnes gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Ac fe gyfeiriodd at adroddiad PwC mewn perthynas â chynhyrchiant is, y credaf ei bod yn ddadl y dylem ei chael ar adeg arall yn y Siambr hon yn ôl pob tebyg, ynglŷn â sut y gallwn gynyddu cynhyrchiant yma yng Nghymru i sicrhau ein bod yn cael y gorau o'n heconomi.
Rwy'n ymwybodol o'r amser, Lywydd. Weinidog, fe wnaethoch ddewis ymateb drwy gydnabod y gwahaniaeth y mae talwyr ardrethi annomestig yn ei wneud i wasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru. Rwy'n credu ei bod yn dda cydnabod y pwynt hwnnw. Ac roeddech am ailadrodd y pwynt a wnaeth Hefin David ynglŷn â chydbwyso trethiant ag ariannu'r gwasanaethau cyhoeddus hynny, sy'n gydbwysedd heriol o bryd i'w gilydd. Roeddech hefyd yn awyddus, Weinidog, i atgoffa'r Aelodau o'r gefnogaeth sydd eisoes ar gael i'r busnesau hynny. Ond hoffwn ailadrodd y pwynt hwnnw. Mae'n rhaid inni gael y cydbwysedd hwnnw'n gywir, ac ydy, mae trethiant yn rhywbeth a dalwn er mwyn ariannu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, ond mae angen inni weld busnesau'n ffynnu. Mae angen i bobl allu codi yn y bore a bod yn hyderus wrth fynd i'w gweithle, i'w man busnes, y bydd yn llwyddiannus yn y dyfodol iddynt hwy a'u teuluoedd. Ar hyn o bryd, fel Ceidwadwyr, teimlwn fod symud o 75 y cant i 40 y cant o ryddhad yn gam yn rhy bell. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi cael arian wedi'i drosglwyddo iddi i adfer rhyddhad ardrethi busnes i 75 y cant, ac ar y meinciau hyn, credwn y dylech wneud hynny ar unwaith. Felly, rwy'n gobeithio y bydd y Senedd yn cefnogi ein cynnig yma heddiw ac yn pleidleisio o blaid cefnogi busnesau Cymru yn ogystal.
Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthwynebiad. Felly gwnawn ni adael y bleidlais tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.
The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. And therefore we will defer voting until voting time.
Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.
Voting deferred until voting time.
Eitem 13 sydd nesaf ar ddarlledu rygbi'r chwe gwlad. Tom Giffard i wneud y cynnig yma ar ran y Ceidwadwyr.
Item 13 is next on six nations rugby broadcasting. Tom Giffard to move the motion on behalf of the Conservatives.
Cynnig NDM8470 Darren Millar
Cynnig bod y Senedd:
1. Yn cydnabod y sylwadau a waned gan Syr John Whittingdale AS, Gweinidog Gwladol yr Adran dros Ddiwylliant, y Cyfryngau a Chwaraeon, y byddai Llywodraeth y DU yn edrych eto ar y digwyddiadau a rhestrir pe bai Senedd Cymru yn dadlau’n gryf iawn o blaid hynny.
2. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth y DU i gynnwys gemau rygbi’r chwe gwlad yn y categori am ddim at ddibenion darlledu.
Motion NDM8470 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Recognises the comments made by Sir John Whittingdale MP, Minister of State in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, that the UK Government would look at listed events again if the Welsh Parliament argued very strongly for that.
2. Calls on the UK Government to include Welsh six nations rugby games in the free-to-air category for broadcasting purposes.
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. So, what are you doing this weekend? I know, it's a stupid question. It sounds cliché, but every time our Wales team play in the six nations, it is a genuinely major national event. Whether you're in Cardiff with a ticket to watch the game with a daffodil on your head, or you're watching it from home with a cup of tea, it does genuinely feel like a rare occasion where the whole of the country comes to a stop. And you can't put a price on those moments. We live in a world where we have an unlimited number of tv channels, a massive selection of things we can watch on demand, and a massive number of distractions in our lives. The age of the monoculture, millions of us sitting in one place all at one time watching the same thing is over. But that's the case for all but the rarest of events. But it's clear the six nations is one of those. Those communal moments that we enjoy together as a nation, which bind us together as people, are literally priceless. That's why it would be a major mistake for Welsh rugby and for Wales to put the six nations tournament behind a paywall. I've heard some say that that wouldn't really have an impact on the sport, but it clearly would. Just look at another sport, cricket. Many of us remember that 2005 Ashes team that won the urn against Australia. That tournament peaked during the fourth test with an impressive 8.4 million viewers. But that momentum was never capitalised on. The tournament was put behind a paywall, and the final day of the 2009 Ashes only pulled in 467,000 viewers in the UK. Whilst Welsh rugby is clearly an institution, we can't be arrogant enough to think that putting the tournament behind a paywall wouldn't have a similar impact.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Lywydd. Felly, beth fyddwch chi'n ei wneud y penwythnos hwn? Rwy'n gwybod, mae'n gwestiwn ffôl. Mae'n swnio fel ystrydeb, ond bob tro mae tîm Cymru'n chwarae yn y chwe gwlad, mae'n ddigwyddiad cenedlaethol gwirioneddol fawr. Pa un a ydych chi yng Nghaerdydd gyda thocyn i wylio'r gêm gyda chennin Pedr ar eich pen, neu'n ei gwylio gartref gyda phaned o de, mae'n teimlo fel achlysur prin lle mae'r wlad gyfan yn dod i stop. Ac ni allwch roi pris ar yr eiliadau hynny. Rydym yn byw mewn byd lle mae gennym nifer diderfyn o sianeli teledu, detholiad enfawr o bethau y gallwn eu gwylio ar gais, a nifer enfawr o bethau i'n difyrru yn ein bywydau. Mae oes yr un diwylliant, gyda miliynau ohonom yn eistedd mewn un lle ar yr un pryd yn gwylio'r un peth ar ben. Mae hynny'n wir am bopeth heblaw'r digwyddiadau mwyaf prin. Ond mae'n amlwg fod y chwe gwlad yn un o'r rheini. Mae'r eiliadau cymunedol yr ydym yn eu mwynhau gyda'n gilydd fel cenedl, sy'n ein rhwymo gyda'n gilydd fel pobl, yn llythrennol amhrisiadwy. Dyna pam y byddai'n gamgymeriad mawr i rygbi Cymru ac i Gymru roi pencampwriaeth y chwe gwlad y tu ôl i wal dalu. Rwyf wedi clywed rhai yn dweud na fyddai hynny'n cael effaith ar y gamp mewn gwirionedd, ond mae'n amlwg y byddai. Edrychwch ar gamp arall, criced. Mae llawer ohonom yn cofio tîm y Lludw 2005 a enillodd yn erbyn Awstralia. Cyrhaeddodd y bencampwriaeth honno uchafbwynt yn ystod y pedwerydd prawf gydag 8.4 miliwn o wylwyr. Ond ni fanteisiwyd ar y momentwm hwnnw erioed. Rhoddwyd y bencampwriaeth y tu ôl i wal dalu, a dim ond 467,000 o wylwyr yn y DU a ddenwyd i wylio diwrnod olaf y Lludw yn 2009. Er bod rygbi Cymru yn amlwg yn sefydliad, ni allwn fod mor haerllug â meddwl na fyddai rhoi'r bencampwriaeth y tu ôl i wal dalu yn cael effaith debyg.
I fully agree with the thrust of what he's saying, but, of course, the culture committee's had a letter from Abi Tierney, who said,
'Put simply, the negative financial implications of moving international rugby matches in the Six Nations Rugby Championship to the protected list could have a devastating impact on the whole of the game in Wales in the medium and long term.'
We'll have a chance to question them tomorrow in committee, but what are your initial views on that view?
Rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr â phrif bwyslais yr hyn y mae'n ei ddweud, ond wrth gwrs, fe gafodd y pwyllgor diwylliant lythyr gan Abi Tierney, a ddywedai,
'Yn syml iawn, gallai goblygiadau ariannol negyddol symud gemau rygbi rhyngwladol ym Mhencampwriaeth Rygbi'r Chwe Gwlad i'r rhestr warchodedig gael effaith ddinistriol ar y gêm gyfan yng Nghymru yn y tymor canolig ac yn hirdymor.'
Cawn gyfle i'w holi yfory yn y pwyllgor, ond beth yw eich safbwyntiau cychwynnol chi ar y farn honno?
I think you'll be very pleased to know it's my very next line. [Laughter.] And for those concerned about the impact, like Hefin David, that keeping the tournament on free-to-air tv will have on Welsh rugby's finances, and somehow completely going behind a paywall is best for the game, I completely disagree. In fact, there's a lot more that Welsh Government could be doing on that front, by supporting the Welsh Rugby Union and its regions, in particular by the renegotiation of the terms of its COVID loan, which, as we heard recently, is crippling the regions in particular. But the only way we can make this Welsh Labour Government financially support the Ospreys is if they find them in a field in mid Wales.
It's worth remembering that over two thirds of people in the UK don't have access to a premium sports channel, and women and younger audiences are traditionally the hardest to reach behind a paywall. So, we're potentially excluding some of the very people that we need to reach. We know that there's a clear link between watching sports and being inspired to participate in them, so by reducing the audience watching, we're also reducing the potential pool of people to play them. Going back to cricket, participation fell by 32 per cent over the decade that followed the move behind the paywall. We can't risk doing that to rugby in Wales.
Whilst broadcasting is not a devolved matter, sport is. That's why the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Minister, John Whittingdale, came to this Senedd, to the culture committee just a few weeks back, and he said:
'if the Welsh Parliament argued very strongly that, for the good of sport in Wales, we needed to look again at the listed events, we would look at it, certainly.'
Then, clearly, colleagues, this is an opportunity to make that case, and I can think of nothing stronger than this Senedd, standing together as one united voice, saying that we believe the six nations in Wales should be designated as the class A event that we all know that it is and remain on free-to-air television in Wales.
Rwy'n credu y byddwch yn falch iawn o wybod mai dyna yw fy mrawddeg nesaf. [Chwerthin.] Ac i'r rhai sy'n poeni am yr effaith, fel Hefin David, y bydd cadw'r bencampwriaeth ar deledu am ddim yn ei chael ar gyllid rygbi Cymru, ac mai mynd y tu ôl i wal dalu'n llwyr sydd orau i'r gêm, rwy'n anghytuno'n llwyr. Mewn gwirionedd, mae llawer mwy y gallai Llywodraeth Cymru ei wneud ar hynny, trwy gefnogi Undeb Rygbi Cymru a'i ranbarthau, yn enwedig trwy aildrafod telerau ei fenthyciad COVID, sydd, fel y clywsom yn ddiweddar, yn llethu'r rhanbarthau yn enwedig. Ond yr unig ffordd y gallwn wneud i'r Llywodraeth Lafur hon gefnogi'r Gweilch yn ariannol yw os dônt o hyd iddynt mewn cae yng nghanolbarth Cymru.
Mae'n werth cofio nad oes gan dros ddwy ran o dair o bobl yn y DU fynediad at sianel chwaraeon premiwm, ac yn draddodiadol menywod a chynulleidfaoedd iau yw'r rhai anoddaf i'w cyrraedd y tu ôl i wal dalu. Felly, mae perygl o eithrio rhai o'r union bobl y mae angen inni eu cyrraedd. Rydym yn gwybod bod cysylltiad clir rhwng gwylio chwaraeon a chael ein hysbrydoli i gymryd rhan ynddynt, felly drwy leihau'r gynulleidfa sy'n gwylio, rydym hefyd yn lleihau'r nifer posibl o bobl a fydd yn eu chwarae. I fynd yn ôl at griced, gostyngodd lefelau cyfranogiad 32 y cant dros y degawd a ddilynodd y symud y tu ôl i'r wal dalu. Ni allwn fentro gwneud hynny i rygbi yng Nghymru.
Er nad yw darlledu yn fater datganoledig, mae chwaraeon wedi'i ddatganoli. Dyna pam y daeth y Gweinidog dros Dechnoleg Ddigidol, Diwylliant, y Cyfryngau a Chwaraeon, John Whittingdale, i'r Senedd hon, at y pwyllgor diwylliant, ychydig wythnosau yn ôl, ac fe ddywedodd:
'pe bai Senedd Cymru yn dadlau'n gryf iawn fod angen i ni, er lles chwaraeon yng Nghymru, edrych eto ar y digwyddiadau a restrir, byddem yn edrych arno, yn sicr.'
Felly, yn amlwg, gyd-Aelodau, dyma gyfle i gyflwyno'r achos hwnnw, ac ni allaf feddwl am ddim byd cryfach na bod y Senedd hon, drwy sefyll gyda'n gilydd fel un llais unedig, yn dweud ein bod yn credu y dylid dynodi bod y chwe gwlad yng Nghymru yn ddigwyddiad categori A fel y gwyddom i gyd ei fod, a'i fod yn parhau ar deledu am ddim yng Nghymru.
The irony is not lost on Plaid Cymru, and I'm surprised this wasn't mentioned, that on the eve of this debate, tabled by the Conservatives calling for the six nations broadcasting to remain free-to-air, every single one of their colleagues in Westminster voted against exactly that. So, we completely support this, that's why I raised a topical question last week, but how are we going to ensure that this happens? And how are you going to ensure that your colleagues in Westminster support these calls as well? Because, as you rightly said, we don't have the power to decide this here in Wales, but why aren't Tory MPs in Westminster standing up for Wales? It is hypocrisy if you're bringing forward this motion and yet Welsh MPs are not voting to support it—[Interruption.] You have your own views, but your role here is to also work with colleagues in Westminster to ensure—. Because our MPs will always stand up for Wales; it's a shame that yours won't.
The arguments were well rehearsed last week about why free-to-air is essential, and I was extremely disappointed by the WRU's letter, which was in contrast to Noel Mooney and the FAW's response, when they struck a deal with S4C to ensure that all of Wales's matches were available free to view. Because the other element here—.
Nid yw'r eironi yn cael ei golli ar Blaid Cymru, ac rwy'n synnu na soniwyd am hyn, ar drothwy'r ddadl hon a gyflwynwyd gan y Ceidwadwyr yn galw am i ddarlledu'r chwe gwlad barhau ar deledu am ddim, fod pob un o'u cymheiriaid yn San Steffan wedi pleidleisio yn erbyn hynny. Felly, rydym ni'n cefnogi hyn yn llwyr, dyna pam y gwneuthum godi cwestiwn amserol yr wythnos diwethaf, ond sut y gallwn sicrhau bod hyn yn digwydd? A sut ydych chi'n mynd i sicrhau bod eich cymheiriaid yn San Steffan yn cefnogi'r galwadau hyn hefyd? Oherwydd, fel y dywedoch chi'n gywir, nid oes gennym bŵer i benderfynu hyn yma yng Nghymru, ond pam nad yw ASau Torïaidd yn San Steffan yn sefyll dros Gymru? Mae'n rhagrith os ydych chi'n cyflwyno'r cynnig hwn ac eto nad yw Aelodau Seneddol Cymreig yn pleidleisio i'w gefnogi—[Torri ar draws.] Mae gennych eich safbwyntiau eich hun, ond eich rôl chi yma hefyd yw gweithio gyda chymheiriaid yn San Steffan i sicrhau—. Oherwydd bydd ein Haelodau Seneddol ni bob amser yn sefyll dros Gymru; mae'n drueni na wnaiff eich rhai chi.
Cafodd y dadleuon eu hailadrodd droeon yr wythnos diwethaf ynglŷn â pham mae teledu am ddim yn hanfodol, a chefais fy siomi'n fawr gan lythyr URC, a oedd yn wahanol i ymateb Noel Mooney a Chymdeithas Bêl-droed Cymru, pan wnaethant hwy daro bargen gydag S4C i sicrhau bod holl gemau Cymru ar gael i'w gweld am ddim. Oherwydd yr elfen arall yma—.
A byddaf i'n troi i'r Gymraeg o ran hyn. Yr elfen arall, wrth gwrs, ydy o ran y Gymraeg. Mae'r ffaith bod ein gemau rhyngwladol ni ar gael ar S4C yn eithriadol o bwysig. Mae'r ffaith bod clybiau rygbi ledled Cymru—bariau ac ati—yn dewis darlledu yn y Gymraeg a bod pobl yn clywed y Gymraeg fel iaith fyw a bod nifer o bobl yn eu cartrefi yn dewis gwylio ar S4C a gwylio gyda'r isdeitlau yn Saesneg yn golygu ein bod ni o ddifrif yn gweld y Gymraeg fel iaith berthnasol i fywyd bob dydd a hefyd fel iaith sy'n perthyn i bawb. Mae yna gymaint o ddysgwyr yn cael budd o wylio chwaraeon hefyd ar S4C.
Mi fyddwn i'n hoffi gwybod, pan fyddwch chi'n holi'r undeb rygbi yfory, pa ystyriaeth maen nhw'n ei rhoi o ran y Gymraeg ac a ydyn nhw'n fodlon rhoi'r un ymroddiad ag y mae Cymdeithas Bêl-droed Cymru. Oherwydd mi oedd y gymdeithas bêl-droed yn gadarn am bwysigrwydd galluogi'r wal goch a phawb yng Nghymru i ddilyn hynt a helynt y timau cenedlaethol. Mae o hefyd ynglŷn ag ysgogi'r genhedlaeth nesaf o chwaraewyr, ond hefyd pobl i fod yn gwneud pob math o chwaraeon. Mae yna rygbi dan gerdded, pêl-droed dan gerdded ac ati; dydy o ddim jest am chwarae i'ch gwlad, mae o am fod yn rhan o rywbeth. Ac rydym ni wedi gweld, efo cwpan y byd pêl-droed, beth ddigwyddodd o ran y niferoedd yn cynyddu o ran merched ac ati yn mynd ati. Felly, dwi'n llwyr gefnogi hwn, ond mae angen mwy na geiriau gwag. Mae angen gweld gweithredu ar lefel San Steffan a dwi yn annog y Torïaid i sicrhau nad geiriau gwag mo'r rhain; mae gennych chi gydweithwyr yn San Steffan sy'n gallu newid hyn—gwnewch yn siŵr eu bod nhw'n newid hynny.
And I will turn to Welsh at this point. The other element here is in relation to the Welsh language. The fact that our international matches are available on S4C is extremely important. The fact that rugby clubs throughout Wales—bars et cetera—choose to broadcast through the medium of Welsh and that people hear the Welsh language as a living language and that many people at home choose to view on S4C, with English subtitles, often, does mean that we truly see the Welsh language as one that is relevant to daily life and also as a language that belongs to us all. There are so many learners who benefit from watching sport on S4C.
I would like to know, when you do question the WRU tomorrow, what consideration they give to the Welsh language and are they willing to show the same commitment as the Football Association of Wales has shown. Because the FAW was robust in ensuring that the red wall and everyone in Wales could follow the trials of the Welsh football team. It also inspires the next generation of players, but also inspires people to get involved in all sorts of sports. There's walking football, walking rugby; it's not just about playing for your country, it's about being part of something. And we have seen, with the football world cup, what happened in terms of the participation numbers increasing among women and girls, for example. So, I fully support this, but we need more than empty words. We need action at Westminster and I urge the Tories to ensure that these aren't empty words; you have colleagues in Westminster who can change this—make sure they do so.
I stand before you today not as a Senedd Member, but as a proud son of Wales and a lifelong member of Gwernyfed RFC, and an unwavering rugby fan for many years, for all the highs and the lows that we've had in Welsh rugby.
But, today, we need to address a decision that strikes to the heart of our nation, as a rugby nation: the exclusion of the six nations from the free-to-air category. As a young boy myself, my introduction to rugby wasn't in grand stadiums but on the muddy fields of Trefeca Road in Talgarth, donning the green, white and black shirt for my club—the team spirit, the friends that I've made there, learning to pass off both hands, even though I still do struggle passing off the left, and the big collisions that we do have as well, and my bruised ribs from the weekend can attest to that as well. But it's wider than that; it's about actually watching rugby on telly that fuelled the passion. I can remember watching Neil Jenkins, Rob Howley, Stephen Jones and also the Quinell brothers when I first started watching rugby and that really fuelled my passion for the game. But these memories that I have could not exist if that sport was confined behind a paywall. The decision by the UK Government isn't just about access to elite sport, it's about an opportunity—an opportunity missed, I think. How can we inspire the next generations when the very passion that inspires our young people to take up sport is hidden behind a paywall? I think it would be an absolute disgrace and a real shame for the game in Wales. Just imagine a young boy in Brecon and Radnor or any part of Wales—or girl—imagine their eyes when the stars that they want to see and the dreams that they have are hidden behind a price tag. Sky Sports costs upwards of £50 a month to watch, Amazon costs a huge amount to watch, and a lot of families across Wales simply cannot afford to pay that. So, I think we owe it to those families in Wales to show our six nations on free-to-air.
But let us not forget the economic element of it. In 2015, a while ago now, 40,000 individuals—more of them have flocked to Cardiff in the years since—. That injects a staggering £2 million to £3 million a day into the local economy in Cardiff. A lot of those pubs in the town actually put it on free-to-air tv on the BBC; a lot of them don't have Sky Sports, because, as I said earlier in the week, of the sheer cost of it. But a lot of our pubs and our rugby clubs across Wales don't have access to Sky Sports, and they thrive when this sport is on their tellies.
I think it'd be a great shame if all that collective share of joy, that gasp in those pubs when we have those near misses, and the great—I can't get my words out now—how excited we all are when we actually win a game of rugby. It is a bit rare in this day and age, but we are going to, hopefully, get back this six nations. But can you just imagine a six nations rugby weekend in Wales without those crowds, with it just reduced to silence and people watching from home? I don't want to see that, I don't think the people of Wales want to see that, and I think the Welsh Rugby Union have made a big mistake in the letter that they've issued. The people of Wales want to see the six nations on free-to-air telly, and I think the Welsh Rugby Union should reconsider what they've told us all today. Thank you.
Rwy'n sefyll o'ch blaen chi heddiw nid fel Aelod o'r Senedd, ond fel Cymro balch ac aelod gydol oes o Glwb Rygbi Gwernyfed, a chefnogwr rygbi brwd ers blynyddoedd lawer, drwy'r holl uchafbwyntiau a'r isafbwyntiau a gawsom yn rygbi Cymru.
Ond heddiw, mae angen inni fynd i'r afael â phenderfyniad sy'n taro at galon ein cenedl, fel cenedl rygbi: gwahardd y chwe gwlad o'r categori teledu am ddim. Yn fachgen ifanc, nid mewn stadia mawreddog y cefais fy nghyflwyno i rygbi ond ar gaeau mwdlyd Ffordd Trefeca yn Nhalgarth, gan wisgo crys gwyrdd, gwyn a du fy nghlwb—yr ysbryd tîm, y ffrindiau a wneuthum yno, yn dysgu pasio oddi ar y ddwy law, er fy mod i'n dal i gael trafferth pasio oddi ar y llaw chwith, a'r gwrthdrawiadau mawr a gawn hefyd, a gall fy asennau cleisiog ers y penwythnos dystio i hynny hefyd. Ond mae'n ehangach na hynny; gwylio rygbi ar y teledu a daniodd yr angerdd. Gallaf gofio gwylio Neil Jenkins, Rob Howley, Stephen Jones a'r brodyr Quinell pan ddechreuais wylio rygbi am y tro cyntaf ac fe wnaeth hynny danio fy angerdd am y gêm. Ond ni allai'r atgofion hyn sydd gennyf fod wedi bodoli pe bai'r gamp wedi'i chyfyngu y tu ôl i wal dalu. Nid ymwneud â mynediad at chwaraeon elitaidd yn unig y mae penderfyniad Llywodraeth y DU, mae'n ymwneud â chyfle—cyfle a gollwyd yn fy marn i. Sut y gallwn ni ysbrydoli'r cenedlaethau nesaf pan fydd yr angerdd sy'n ysbrydoli ein pobl ifanc i gymryd rhan mewn chwaraeon yn cael ei guddio y tu ôl i wal dalu? Rwy'n credu y byddai'n warth llwyr ac yn drueni mawr i'r gêm yng Nghymru. Dychmygwch fachgen ifanc ym Mrycheiniog a Maesyfed neu unrhyw ran o Gymru—neu ferch—dychmygwch eu llygaid pan fo'r sêr y maent am eu gweld a'r breuddwydion sydd ganddynt wedi'u cuddio y tu ôl i label pris. Mae Sky Sports yn costio mwy na £50 y mis i'w wylio, mae Amazon yn costio llawer iawn i'w wylio, ac yn syml, mae llawer o deuluoedd ledled Cymru yn methu fforddio talu hynny. Felly, rwy'n credu mai ein cyfrifoldeb i'r teuluoedd hyn yng Nghymru yw dangos ein chwe gwlad ar deledu am ddim.
Ond gadewch inni beidio ag anghofio'r elfen economaidd yn hyn. Yn 2015, beth amser yn ôl erbyn hyn, aeth 40,000 o unigolion—mae mwy ohonynt wedi heidio i Gaerdydd yn y blynyddoedd ers hynny—. Mae hynny'n chwistrellu swm anhygoel o £2 filiwn i £3 miliwn y dydd i'r economi leol yng Nghaerdydd. Mae llawer o'r tafarndai yn y dref yn ei roi ar deledu am ddim ar y BBC; nid oes gan lawer ohonynt Sky Sports oherwydd ei gost enfawr, fel y dywedais yn gynharach yn yr wythnos. Ond nid oes gan lawer o'n tafarndai a'n clybiau rygbi ledled Cymru Sky Sports, ac maent yn ffynnu pan fydd y gamp hon ar eu setiau teledu.
Rwy'n credu y byddai'n drueni mawr pe bai'r holl lawenydd cyfunol hwnnw a rennir, yr ebychiad yn y tafarndai wrth i'r chwaraewyr ddod o fewn trwch blewyn i sgorio, a'n cyffro pan fyddwn yn ennill gêm o rygbi. Mae'n brin yn yr oes sydd ohoni, ond rydym yn mynd i gael y chwe gwlad yn ôl, gobeithio. Ond a allwch chi ddychmygu penwythnos rygbi'r chwe gwlad yng Nghymru heb y torfeydd, gyda dim byd ond tawelwch a phobl yn gwylio gartref? Nid wyf eisiau gweld hynny, nid wyf yn meddwl bod pobl Cymru eisiau gweld hynny, ac rwy'n meddwl bod Undeb Rygbi Cymru wedi gwneud camgymeriad mawr yn y llythyr a gyhoeddwyd ganddynt. Mae pobl Cymru eisiau gweld y chwe gwlad ar deledu am ddim, ac rwy'n credu y dylai Undeb Rygbi Cymru ailystyried yr hyn y maent wedi'i ddweud wrthym i gyd heddiw. Diolch.
I'm grateful to you, Presiding Officer. I think rugby's played a central part in Wales for over a century. In many ways, it defined us as a nation. Many of the images of Wales would have been associated with rugby, and it's something that we all remember, in the same way as has just been described. I remember my first five nations game. It was in January 1980, when I struggled on to the train from Rhymney, went down to Cardiff—I was very excited, of course—and went into the east terrace to watch Wales defeat France, 18-9; I remember the score. It was a part of who we are as a people, a part of who we are as a country, as a nation. I even remember bumping into the Presiding Officer in Dublin on more than occasion, but that's for another time.
Diolch i chi, Lywydd. Rwy'n meddwl bod rygbi wedi chwarae rhan ganolog yng Nghymru ers dros ganrif. Mewn sawl ffordd, roedd yn ein diffinio fel cenedl. Byddai llawer o'r lluniau o Gymru wedi bod yn gysylltiedig â rygbi, ac mae'n rhywbeth yr ydym i gyd yn ei gofio, yn yr un modd ag sydd newydd gael ei ddisgrifio. Rwy'n cofio fy ngêm pum gwlad gyntaf. Roedd honno ym mis Ionawr 1980, pan gefais drafferth i fynd ar y trên o Rymni, a mynd lawr i Gaerdydd—roeddwn i'n llawn cyffro wrth gwrs—ac euthum i mewn i'r teras dwyreiniol i wylio Cymru'n trechu Ffrainc, 18-9; rwy'n cofio'r canlyniad. Roedd yn rhan o bwy ydym fel pobl, yn rhan o bwy ydym fel gwlad, fel cenedl. Rwyf hyd yn oed yn cofio taro i mewn i'r Llywydd yn Nulyn ar fwy nag achlysur, ond gadawaf hynny at adeg arall.
You've only got three minutes. [Laughter.]
Dim ond 3 munud sydd gennych. [Chwerthin.]
Give me five, and we'll do a deal. The five nations, the six nations, is a part of who we are. It defines us. I remember people who wouldn't normally be watching rugby or sport would be tuning in because they'd want to see how Wales were doing, they'd want to see how the team was doing—a part of our culture, of who are, and I don't think you can avoid that.
Now, the arguments, and I've read the letter from Abi Tierney, and it's a good letter, let's not simply dismiss it—. I wouldn't dismiss it, because the arguments about the future are different to the memories of the past. But some things remain absolutely central: Westgate Street on match day is different to the west car park on match day. The fan in Wales is different, in many ways, to the fan elsewhere. The reach of rugby union in Wales is different to the reach of rugby union in other places, and we need to recognise that. We need to recognise it in how we approach these things.
I thought the argument put forward by Tom Giffard in opening this debate, using the example of cricket, is a really important part of this debate, because it is right, and Abi is right in her letter, the WRU need to get the revenue from the game, they need the revenue from tv rights in order to fund the community game. I don't think you can create the divisions between the national team and the community game in the way that some people seek to. It's the community game that needs the six nations available for all to watch freely wherever we happen to be, because it's the six nations and international rugby union that create the heroes of tomorrow, the role models of today. When we were cross-examining Ieuan Evans last year over WRU issues, I could still see him from the east terrace running towards us in that game against England, scoring just before half time, unbelievable scenes in the stadium. We kept the English out all through the second half and won the game.
Memories and who we are are made by these occasions. We talk about culture—we spoke about culture earlier—but culture is about us and defining us. The six nations is part of who we are; it's more important to us than many or most of the other sporting events that are covered by the crown jewels of sport. Six nations is more important to Wales, I would argue, than almost any other one of those sporting occasions. That's not to decry them, but it's to define us and our priorities, and I hope the WRU tomorrow will begin a conversation with us and with Wales, and will ensure that we don't sell tomorrow on the benefit of funding today.
Rhowch bump i mi, ac fe darwn fargen. Mae'r pum gwlad, y chwe gwlad, yn rhan o bwy ydym. Mae'n ein diffinio ni. Rwy'n cofio y byddai pobl na fyddai fel arfer yn gwylio rygbi neu chwaraeon yn gwylio am y byddent eisiau gweld sut oedd Cymru'n gwneud, byddent eisiau gweld sut oedd y tîm yn gwneud—rhan o'n diwylliant ni, o bwy ydym, ac nid wyf yn meddwl y gallwch chi osgoi hynny.
Nawr, y dadleuon, a darllenais y llythyr gan Abi Tierney, ac mae'n llythyr da, gadewch inni beidio â'i ddiystyru—. Ni fuaswn yn ei ddiystyru, oherwydd mae'r dadleuon am y dyfodol yn wahanol i atgofion am y gorffennol. Ond mae rhai pethau'n parhau'n gwbl ganolog: mae Heol y Porth ar ddiwrnod gêm yn wahanol i faes parcio'r gorllewin ar ddiwrnod gêm. Mae'r cefnogwr yng Nghymru yn wahanol, mewn sawl ffordd, i gefnogwyr mewn mannau eraill. Mae cyrhaeddiad rygbi'r undeb yng Nghymru yn wahanol i gyrhaeddiad rygbi'r undeb mewn llefydd eraill, ac mae angen inni gydnabod hynny. Mae angen inni ei gydnabod yn y ffordd yr awn i'r afael â'r pethau hyn.
Roeddwn yn meddwl bod y ddadl a gyflwynwyd gan Tom Giffard wrth agor y ddadl hon, a defnyddio enghraifft criced, yn rhan bwysig iawn o'r ddadl hon, oherwydd mae'n iawn, ac mae Abi yn iawn yn ei llythyr, mae angen i URC gael refeniw o'r gêm, mae angen y refeniw arnynt o hawliau teledu er mwyn ariannu'r gêm gymunedol. Nid wyf yn credu y gallwch chi greu rhaniadau rhwng y tîm cenedlaethol a'r gêm gymunedol yn y ffordd y mae rhai pobl yn ceisio ei wneud. Mae'r gêm gymunedol angen i'r chwe gwlad fod ar gael i bawb ei gwylio am ddim lle bynnag y byddwn, oherwydd y chwe gwlad a'r undeb rygbi rhyngwladol sy'n creu arwyr yfory, modelau rôl heddiw. Pan oeddem yn holi Ieuan Evans y llynedd ynglŷn â materion URC, roeddwn i'n dal i'w weld o'r teras dwyreiniol yn rhedeg tuag atom yn y gêm yn erbyn Lloegr, gan sgorio ychydig cyn hanner amser, golygfeydd anghredadwy yn y stadiwm. Fe wnaethom ni gadw'r Saeson allan drwy'r ail hanner ac ennill y gêm.
Mae atgofion a phwy ydym ni'n cael eu creu gan yr achlysuron hyn. Rydym yn siarad am ddiwylliant—fe wnaethom siarad am ddiwylliant yn gynharach—ond mae diwylliant yn ymwneud â ni a'r diffiniad ohonom. Mae'r chwe gwlad yn rhan o bwy ydym ni; mae'n bwysicach i ni na llawer neu'r rhan fwyaf o'r digwyddiadau chwaraeon eraill a gaiff eu darlledu gan y prif gwmnïau darlledu chwaraeon. Buaswn yn dadlau bod y chwe gwlad yn bwysicach i Gymru na bron unrhyw un arall o'r achlysuron chwaraeon hynny. Nid lladd arnynt yw hynny, ond ein diffinio ni a'n blaenoriaethau, ac rwy'n gobeithio y bydd URC yfory yn dechrau sgwrs gyda ni a Chymru, ac yn sicrhau na fyddwn yn gwerthu yfory er budd cyllid heddiw.
I'd like to start by thanking my colleagues for bringing this debate to the Chamber today. As we all know, rugby is synonymous with our great nation and something we all take great pride in. When the stadium sings and Wales wins, it lifts our nation. It's become a national event, watching our neighbours play rugby, in what I believe is one of the greatest tournaments in the world, drawing in all corners of our communities, bringing family and friends together to watch our Welsh heroes. And certainly some of my earliest childhood memories are watching our team at home, at the pub, at my local Usk rugby club, where my dad, own dad, played rugby. Crucially, with it being on free-to-air television, it has allowed the flame to be lit in Welsh children across our nation, inspiring that next generation, as has been said, to pick up a rugby ball. We could end up in a situation where low-income families who can't afford Sky or Amazon end up not being able to watch Wales live due to the high financial costs. If we put the free-to-air status of our national sport at risk, we also put at risk the future of the sport in Wales. We risk alienating the next generation of athletes, who may not even start playing the game. We risk a whole generation of young people missing out on seeing Wales win the six nations. We risk losing part of our national fabric and limit the enjoyment of watching our national team to just those who can afford to pay for it. This is something that cannot and should not be allowed to happen, especially at a time when we need more people than ever to be inspired to get active and fitter.
There is no better way to be inspired into sport or getting healthier than watching our national team succeed on the big stage. It's not just the next generation who will fail to be inspired, but it's also that this will hurt businesses at a time that they're already reeling from COVID or higher business rates, as we heard in the last debate. The six nations provides a much-needed boost to local businesses, particularly those in the hospitality industry. In 2015, it was reported that 40,000 people travelled to Cardiff to watch the game in the city's pubs, who spend on average £50 to £75 each. This means that these visitors will bring in £2 million to £3 million a day. It would be economic self-harm to allow this to be taken away from our businesses and only allow those with the deepest pockets to air the games. Rugby union is often stated to be central to Welsh culture, with the Encyclopaedia of Wales stating that the sport is seen by many as a symbol of Welsh identity and an expression of our national consciousness.
Quite simply, the six nations should be inclusive, and free for all to watch. There needs to be more investment in rugby and in sport in Wales by this Welsh Government but it should not be reliant on hiding behind a paywall. I hope that everyone will support our motion today.
Hoffwn ddechrau drwy ddiolch i fy nghyd-Aelodau am ddod â'r ddadl hon i'r Siambr heddiw. Fel y gwyddom i gyd, mae rygbi yn rhan annatod o'n cenedl wych ac yn rhywbeth y mae pawb ohonom yn ymfalchïo ynddo. Pan fydd y stadiwm yn canu a Chymru'n ennill, mae'n codi calon ein cenedl. Mae wedi dod yn ddigwyddiad cenedlaethol, gwylio ein cymdogion yn chwarae rygbi, yn yr hyn y credaf ei bod un o bencampwriaethau gwychaf y byd, sy'n denu pob cornel o'n cymunedau i mewn, gan ddod â theulu a ffrindiau at ei gilydd i wylio ein harwyr Cymreig. Ac yn sicr mae rhai o fy atgofion plentyndod cynharaf yn ymwneud â gwylio ein tîm gartref, yn y dafarn, yn fy nghlwb rygbi lleol ym Mrynbuga, lle roedd fy nhad, fy nhad fy hun, yn chwarae rygbi. Yn allweddol, oherwydd ei fod ar deledu am ddim, mae wedi caniatáu i'r fflam gael ei goleuo yng nghalonnau plant Cymru ar draws ein cenedl, gan ysbrydoli'r genhedlaeth nesaf, fel y dywedwyd, i gydio mewn pêl rygbi. Gallem gyrraedd sefyllfa lle na fydd teuluoedd incwm isel sy'n methu fforddio Sky neu Amazon yn gallu gwylio Cymru'n fyw oherwydd y costau ariannol uchel. Os ydym yn peryglu statws am ddim ein camp genedlaethol, rydym hefyd yn peryglu dyfodol y gamp yng Nghymru. Rydym mewn perygl o ddieithrio'r genhedlaeth nesaf o athletwyr, na fyddant yn dechrau chwarae'r gêm hyd yn oed. Rydym mewn perygl o weld cenhedlaeth gyfan o bobl ifanc yn colli gweld Cymru'n ennill y chwe gwlad. Rydym mewn perygl o golli rhan o'n gwead cenedlaethol a chyfyngu'r mwynhad o wylio ein tîm cenedlaethol i'r rhai sy'n gallu fforddio talu amdano yn unig. Mae hyn yn rhywbeth na ellir ac na ddylid caniatáu iddo ddigwydd, yn enwedig ar adeg pan fo angen i fwy o bobl nag erioed gael eu hysbrydoli i ddod yn egnïol ac yn fwy heini.
Nid oes ffordd well o gael eich ysbrydoli i gymryd rhan mewn chwaraeon neu i ddod yn iachach na gwylio ein tîm cenedlaethol yn llwyddo ar y llwyfan mawr. Nid y genhedlaeth nesaf yn unig fydd yn methu cael eu hysbrydoli, bydd hyn hefyd yn brifo busnesau ar adeg pan fônt eisoes yn gwegian yn sgil COVID neu ardrethi busnes uwch, fel y clywsom yn y ddadl ddiwethaf. Mae'r chwe gwlad yn rhoi hwb mawr ei angen i fusnesau lleol, yn enwedig y rhai yn y diwydiant lletygarwch. Yn 2015, adroddwyd bod 40,000 o bobl wedi teithio i Gaerdydd i wylio'r gêm yn nhafarndai'r ddinas, gan wario £50 i £75 yr un ar gyfartaledd. Golyga hynny y bydd yr ymwelwyr hyn yn dod â £2 filiwn i £3 miliwn y dydd i mewn. Hunan-niweidio economaidd fyddai caniatáu i'n busnesau gael eu hamddifadu o hyn a chaniatáu'n unig i'r rhai sydd â'r pocedi dyfnaf i ddarlledu'r gemau. Dywedir yn aml fod rygbi'r undeb yn ganolog i ddiwylliant Cymru, gyda Gwyddoniadur Cymru yn datgan bod y gamp yn cael ei gweld gan lawer fel symbol o hunaniaeth Gymreig ac yn fynegiant o'n hymwybyddiaeth genedlaethol.
Yn syml, dylai'r chwe gwlad fod yn gynhwysol, ac am ddim i bawb eu gwylio. Mae angen i Lywodraeth Cymru fuddsoddi mwy mewn rygbi ac mewn chwaraeon yng Nghymru ond ni ddylai hynny fod yn ddibynnol ar guddio y tu ôl i wal dalu. Rwy'n gobeithio y bydd pawb yn cefnogi ein cynnig heddiw.
Y Dirprwy Weinidog nawr i gyfrannu i'r ddadl. Dawn Bowden.
The Deputy Minister now to contribute to the debate. Dawn Bowden.
Diolch, Llywydd. Well, I think we can all agree from what we've heard this afternoon that, in Wales, rugby is a huge part of our cultural and national identity. It reaches areas far beyond the sport itself, doesn't it? It's in the nation's DNA, and the six nations, bringing our neighbouring countries together to fight for that grand slam, holds a special place in our hearts.
Now, the Welsh Government has always been clear that the six nations tournament on television must remain free-to-air, so that the majority of the Welsh population are able to view the games and savour the highs and lows of our national side together. The value of this really should not be underestimated. For the next six weeks, the six nations tournament will showcase the sport of rugby union and our talented players to the world.
Diolch, Lywydd. Wel, rwy'n credu y gallwn i gyd gytuno o'r hyn a glywsom y prynhawn yma fod rygbi, yng Nghymru, yn rhan enfawr o'n hunaniaeth ddiwylliannol a chenedlaethol. Mae'n cyrraedd mannau ymhell y tu hwnt i'r gamp ei hun, onid yw? Mae'n rhan o DNA y genedl, ac mae lle arbennig yn ein calonnau i'r chwe gwlad, sy'n dod â'n gwledydd cyfagos at ei gilydd i ymladd am y gamp lawn.
Nawr, mae Llywodraeth Cymru bob amser wedi bod yn glir fod yn rhaid i bencampwriaeth y chwe gwlad ar y teledu barhau i fod am ddim, fel y gall y mwyafrif o boblogaeth Cymru weld y gemau a sawru uchafbwyntiau ac isafbwyntiau ein tîm cenedlaethol gyda'n gilydd. Ni ddylid bychanu gwerth hyn mewn gwirionedd. Am y chwe wythnos nesaf, bydd pencampwriaeth y chwe gwlad yn arddangos camp rygbi'r undeb a'n chwaraewyr dawnus i'r byd.
Can I intervene on the Deputy Minister and ask if she is willing to accept an intervention from Hefin David?
A gaf i darfu ar y Dirprwy Weinidog a gofyn a yw'n fodlon derbyn ymyriad gan Hefin David?
Oh, indeed, yes.
O, gwnaf yn wir.
Thank you. I hope you can hear me, Deputy Minister.
Diolch. Rwy'n gobeithio y gallwch fy nghlywed, Ddirprwy Weinidog.
Fine, yes.
Gallaf.
The debate, which I think is going to, I suspect, have unanimous support today is about broadening the game to as many people as possible. Would she therefore be as critical as we should be unanimously about John Devereux's, the dual-code international, statement, who said:
'Every bloody game now of men’s football & rugby for that matter on BBC has a woman summariser in it. Any chance we can have a red button choice, with and without? Just asking for a few male friends of mine!'
I think that comment goes fully against the spirit of this debate today when we should be broadening audiences for everyone across Wales.
Mae'r ddadl, y tybiaf y caiff gefnogaeth unfrydol heddiw, yn ymwneud ag ehangu'r gêm i gymaint o bobl â phosibl. A fyddai hi felly mor feirniadol ag y dylem fod, a hynny'n unfrydol, o ddatganiad John Devereux, y chwaraewr rygbi cod deuol rhyngwladol, a ddywedodd:
'Mae gan bob blydi gêm o bêl-droed dynion a rygbi dynion pe bai'n dod i hynny ar y BBC sylwebydd benywaidd. A oes unrhyw obaith y gallwn gael dewis botwm coch, gyda a heb? Dim ond gofyn dros ambell un o fy ffrindiau gwrywaidd!'
Rwy'n credu bod y sylw hwnnw'n mynd yn gwbl groes i ysbryd y ddadl hon heddiw pan ddylem fod yn ehangu cynulleidfaoedd i bawb ledled Cymru.
Well, I'm shocked by that, Hefin. I think that is appalling, and I would suggest that John Devereux joins that very exclusive misogynist commentator club with Joey Barton. I mean, seriously, what is wrong with men that they just can't accept that women are also interested in sport, play sport, and are just as knowledgeable as them and can comment effectively on it, regardless of which sex or gender is playing? Those women's professionalism in sport speaks for itself. I think that John Devereux just speaks for John Devereux, doesn't he?
Wel, rwyf wedi fy syfrdanu gan hynny, Hefin. Rwy'n credu bod hynny'n warthus, a buaswn yn awgrymu bod John Devereux yn ymuno â'r clwb bychan iawn o sylwebyddion misogynistaidd hwnnw gyda Joey Barton. Hynny yw, o ddifrif, beth sydd o'i le ar ddynion na allant dderbyn bod gan fenywod ddiddordeb mewn chwaraeon hefyd, eu bod yn chwarae chwaraeon, a'r un mor wybodus â hwythau ac yn gallu sylwebu'n effeithiol arno, ni waeth pa ryw neu rywedd sy'n chwarae? Mae proffesiynoldeb y menywod hynny yn y byd chwaraeon yn siarad drosto'i hun. Rwy'n credu mai siarad dros John Devereux y mae John Devereux, onid e?
So, if I can go back to where we are in terms of the six nations tournament being that showcase that Hefin David has just talked about in terms of the spread and the reach that it will have, by accessing the games on our tvs or our laptops or our tablets, it just maximises the exposure for the sport in Wales and provides that very opportunity that Hefin was just talking about for players to be inspired by that experience.
Having said that, there are complexities associated with free-to-air coverage. Firstly, a list A grouping doesn't in itself guarantee free-to-air coverage, but it does enable it. And it's also important that we respect and recognise the difficult position of the Welsh Rugby Union, which can't make this decision unilaterally. And we should appreciate that, given the benefits of maximum exposure and the financial advantages of exclusive broadcasting contracts, there is a fine balance to strike, and so, it is important that the Senedd has this debate and that the Welsh Government continues its discussion with the Welsh Rugby Union to ensure that that balance is struck.
Because, as the Senedd knows, through our programme for government, we are committed to promoting equal access to sport, supporting young talented athletes, grass-roots clubs and investing in sporting facilities. And we know, from Sport Wales research, that our investment in sport delivers a huge social return and impacts positively on the health and well-being of our nation. And there's no doubt that the six nations will inspire some children and young people to take up the sport for the first time, and will encourage others to continue to develop those skills, hoping one day to emulate the players that they see on their screens.
Of course, access to broadcast rights is also hugely important to our broadcasters. These games attract large audiences, bringing people to channels and ensuring that broadcasters are able to programme content that remains relevant and appealing to audiences. And, as Heledd Fychan said, where content is available on S4C, for example, it increases access to the Welsh language, it brings Welsh into our homes, including homes that may not usually otherwise hear Welsh spoken. And, as Alun Davies quite rightly observed, because of our cultural attachment to rugby union, we recognise that the six nations means much more in Wales than it does in the other five nations.
Figures in the 'Media Nations: Wales 2023' report last year highlighted Wales's love of rugby, with Wales the only nation to have any rugby games appear in the top-10 sporting viewing figures. As the First Minister said in answer to a question about this yesterday, our cultural identity is reflected more in rugby union than it is, for instance, in Wimbledon or in the Epsom Derby, which, of course, are free-to-air. But this shouldn't matter, as the listed events should reflect the needs of the UK as a whole, and I'm pleased to see that this has been recognised by the Welsh Affairs Committee and should be recognised by the UK Government.
As Tom Giffard reminded us earlier, in his evidence session to the Senedd culture committee last year, John Whittingdale MP, the Minister of State for Media, Tourism and Creative Industries, said that if the Senedd argued very strongly that, for the good of sport in Wales, they needed to look at listed events again, the UK Government would certainly do so. Well, we have done that, and we have demonstrated cross-party support for this in our letter to the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport and again in this debate today.
And as the UK Government takes forward the Media Bill—an essential upgrade to the regulatory framework for broadcasters in the UK—now is absolutely the right time to review and amend the listed events regime to ensure that it is fit for purpose for us all. I was therefore disappointed that the amendments to facilitate free-to-air for the six nations and the establishment of a fund under the auspices of the Secretary of State, which could be paid to governing bodies that may experience financial detriment as a result of listing under group A, was defeated in the House of Commons yesterday.
I do think it was a shame that Tom Giffard couldn't help himself on a matter of cross-party consensus, in trying to make a cheap political shot about the WRU loan, which was answered very clearly by the First Minister yesterday—and particularly as Heledd Fychan had already reminded us that it was Tory MPs in Westminster yesterday who had opposed the very thing that we are arguing for today.
However, all Members who have contributed to this debate today have made the position of this Senedd very clear, and so I still hope that the UK Government will reconsider its position and will move to review the group A listed events to include the six nations tournament. Diolch yn fawr.
Felly, os caf fynd yn ôl at ble rydym ni, gyda phencampwriaeth y chwe gwlad yn arddangosiad, fel y nododd Hefin David nawr, o'r lledaeniad a'r cyrhaeddiad a fydd ganddi drwy allu gweld y gemau ar ein setiau teledu neu ein gliniaduron neu ein tabledi, mae'n sicrhau bod y gamp yn cael cymaint â phosibl o sylw yng Nghymru ac yn darparu'r cyfle yr oedd Hefin yn siarad amdano i chwaraewyr gael eu hysbrydoli gan y profiad hwnnw.
Wedi dweud hynny, mae cymhlethdodau ynghlwm wrth deledu am ddim. Yn gyntaf, nid yw rhestriad grŵp A ynddo'i hun yn gwarantu darlledu am ddim, ond mae'n ei alluogi. Ac mae hefyd yn bwysig ein bod yn parchu ac yn cydnabod sefyllfa anodd Undeb Rygbi Cymru, na all wneud y penderfyniad hwn ar ei ben ei hun. Ac o ystyried manteision sicrhau'r sylw mwyaf posibl a manteision ariannol contractau darlledu cyfyngol, dylem dderbyn bod cydbwysedd i'w daro, ac felly, mae'n bwysig fod y Senedd yn cael y ddadl hon a bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn parhau â'i thrafodaeth gydag Undeb Rygbi Cymru i sicrhau bod y cydbwysedd hwnnw'n cael ei daro.
Oherwydd, fel y gŵyr y Senedd, drwy ein rhaglen lywodraethu, rydym wedi ymrwymo i hyrwyddo mynediad cyfartal at chwaraeon, i gefnogi athletwyr ifanc talentog, clybiau llawr gwlad ac i fuddsoddi mewn cyfleusterau chwaraeon. Ac rydym yn gwybod, o ymchwil Chwaraeon Cymru, fod ein buddsoddiad mewn chwaraeon yn sicrhau elw cymdeithasol enfawr ac yn cael effaith gadarnhaol ar iechyd a lles ein cenedl. Ac nid oes amheuaeth y bydd y chwe gwlad yn ysbrydoli plant a phobl ifanc i ymgymryd â'r gamp am y tro cyntaf, a bydd yn annog eraill i barhau i ddatblygu'r sgiliau hynny, gan obeithio, rhyw ddydd, y byddant yn efelychu'r chwaraewyr a welant ar eu sgriniau.
Wrth gwrs, mae mynediad at hawliau darlledu hefyd yn hynod bwysig i'n darlledwyr. Mae'r gemau hyn yn denu cynulleidfaoedd mawr, gan ddod â phobl at sianeli a sicrhau bod darlledwyr yn gallu rhaglennu cynnwys sy'n parhau i fod yn berthnasol ac i apelio at gynulleidfaoedd. Ac fel y dywedodd Heledd Fychan, lle mae cynnwys ar gael ar S4C, er enghraifft, mae'n cynyddu mynediad at y Gymraeg, mae'n dod â'r Gymraeg i mewn i'n cartrefi, gan gynnwys cartrefi na fyddent fel arfer yn clywed Cymraeg yn cael ei siarad fel arall. Ac fel y nododd Alun Davies yn gwbl briodol, oherwydd ein hymlyniad diwylliannol wrth rygbi'r undeb, rydym yn cydnabod bod y chwe gwlad yn golygu llawer mwy yng Nghymru nag yn y pum gwlad arall.
Roedd ffigurau yn adroddiad 'Cyfryngau'r Genedl: Cymru 2023' y llynedd yn amlygu cariad Cymru tuag at rygbi, a Chymru oedd yr unig genedl i gael unrhyw gemau rygbi yn ymddangos yn 10 uchaf y ffigurau gwylio chwaraeon. Fel y dywedodd y Prif Weinidog wrth ateb cwestiwn am hyn ddoe, mae ein hunaniaeth ddiwylliannol yn cael ei hadlewyrchu fwy gan rygbi'r undeb na chan Wimbledon, er enghraifft, neu ras y Derby yn Epsom, sy'n cael eu dangos ar deledu am ddim, wrth gwrs. Ond ni ddylai hyn fod o bwys, gan y dylai'r digwyddiadau a restrir adlewyrchu anghenion y DU gyfan, ac rwy'n falch o weld bod hyn wedi'i gydnabod gan y Pwyllgor Materion Cymreig ac y dylai Llywodraeth y DU ei gydnabod.
Fel y cawsom ein hatgoffa gan Tom Giffard yn gynharach, yn ei sesiwn dystiolaeth i bwyllgor diwylliant y Senedd y llynedd, dywedodd John Whittingdale AS, y Gweinidog Gwladol dros y Cyfryngau, Twristiaeth a'r Diwydiannau Creadigol, pe bai'r Senedd yn dadlau'n gryf iawn fod angen iddynt edrych ar ddigwyddiadau a restrir eto er budd chwaraeon yng Nghymru, y byddai Llywodraeth y DU yn sicr o wneud hynny. Wel, rydym wedi gwneud hynny, ac rydym wedi dangos cefnogaeth drawsbleidiol i hyn yn ein llythyr at yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Ddiwylliant, y Cyfryngau a Chwaraeon ac eto yn y ddadl hon heddiw.
Ac wrth i Lywodraeth y DU fwrw ymlaen â'r Bil Cyfryngau—uwchraddiad hanfodol i'r fframwaith rheoleiddio ar gyfer darlledwyr yn y DU—nawr yw'r amser i adolygu a diwygio'r weithdrefn digwyddiadau a restrir er mwyn sicrhau ei bod yn addas i'r diben i bob un ohonom. Roeddwn yn siomedig felly fod y gwelliannau i hwyluso teledu am ddim ar gyfer y chwe gwlad a sefydlu cronfa dan oruchwyliaeth yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol, y gellid ei thalu i gyrff llywodraethu a allai brofi niwed ariannol o ganlyniad i restriad o dan grŵp A, wedi cael eu trechu yn Nhŷ'r Cyffredin ddoe.
Rwy'n credu ei bod yn drueni na allai Tom Giffard ymatal ar fater o gonsensws trawsbleidiol rhag ceisio gwneud sylw gwleidyddol sarhaus am fenthyciad URC, a gafodd ei ateb yn glir iawn gan y Prif Weinidog ddoe—ac yn enwedig gan fod Heledd Fychan eisoes wedi ein hatgoffa mai ASau Torïaidd yn San Steffan ddoe a wrthwynebodd yr union beth y dadleuwn drosto heddiw.
Fodd bynnag, mae'r holl Aelodau sydd wedi cyfrannu at y ddadl heddiw wedi gwneud safbwynt y Senedd hon yn glir iawn, ac felly rwy'n dal i obeithio y bydd Llywodraeth y DU yn ailystyried ei safbwynt ac yn symud i adolygu'r digwyddiadau grŵp A a restrir i gynnwys pencampwriaeth y chwe gwlad. Diolch yn fawr.
Samuel Kurtz nawr i ymateb i'r ddadl.
Samuel Kurtz now to reply to the debate.
Diolch, Llywydd. Mae'n bleser i gloi'r ddadl yma heno.
Thank you, Llywydd. It's a pleasure to conclude today's debate.
It's a pleasure for me as a proud Welshman, a proud rugby player—just about—to be able to close this debate this evening. In opening, Tom Giffard talked about the similarities between cricket and rugby in terms of participation once a sport moves behind a paywall. I remember vividly watching the 2005 Ashes with Michael Vaughan, Freddie Flintoff, Kevin Pietersen—people who I know now because of the ability to watch that test series on free-to-air television.
And Heledd Fychan, you see, this is the problem sometimes: we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't on this side of the Chamber. If we came out and said we wouldn't do anything with regard to this, then we'd be shot down for not having spoken up as a voice for Wales. We come out in favour of something that is pro-Welsh, underlining the 'Welsh' in 'Welsh Conservatives', and then we're called hypocrites. I'll take an intervention, wrth gwrs.
Mae'n bleser gennyf fel Cymro balch, chwaraewr rygbi balch—yn o agos—allu cau'r ddadl hon heno. Wrth agor, siaradodd Tom Giffard am y tebygrwydd rhwng criced a rygbi o ran lefelau cyfranogiad pan fydd camp yn symud y tu ôl i wal dalu. Rwy'n cofio'n fyw iawn gwylio'r Lludw 2005 gyda Michael Vaughan, Freddie Flintoff, Kevin Pietersen—pobl rwy'n eu hadnabod nawr oherwydd y gallu i wylio'r gemau prawf hynny ar deledu am ddim.
A Heledd Fychan, welwch chi, dyma'r broblem weithiau: cawn ein condemnio os gwnawn a chawn ein condemnio os na wnawn ar yr ochr hon i'r Siambr. Pe byddem yn dweud na fyddem yn gwneud unrhyw beth ynglŷn â hyn, byddem yn cael ein llabyddio am beidio â siarad ag un llais dros Gymru. Down allan o blaid rhywbeth sydd o blaid Cymru, gan danlinellu'r 'Cymreig' yn y 'Ceidwadwyr Cymreig', a chawn ein galw'n rhagrithwyr. Fe wnaf dderbyn ymyriad, wrth gwrs.
All I ask is that you make sure that those who have the powers actually deliver what you're calling for. Call out the Tory MPs from Wales who voted against this last night.
Y cyfan rwy'n ei ofyn yw eich bod yn sicrhau bod y rhai sydd â'r pwerau yn cyflawni'r hyn y galwch amdano. Beirniadwch yr ASau Torïaidd o Gymru a bleidleisiodd yn erbyn hyn neithiwr.
I think the fact we're holding this debate this evening is exactly the case in point.
Rwy'n credu bod y ffaith ein bod yn cynnal y ddadl hon heno yn gwneud hynny.
Before the vote.
Cyn y bleidlais.
We are clearly, as a party here in Wales on this side of the benches, calling for the UK Government to do something here for us in Wales, which I think should be welcomed by the Plaid Cymru Members of the Senedd opposing us this evening. But, Heledd did raise some very interesting points with regard to the link between the FAW and S4C—
Fel plaid yma yng Nghymru ar yr ochr hon i'r meinciau, rydym yn amlwg yn galw ar Lywodraeth y DU i wneud rhywbeth yma i ni yng Nghymru, a chredaf y dylai Aelodau Plaid Cymru o'r Senedd gyferbyn â ni heno groesawu hynny. Ond fe wnaeth Heledd godi rhai pwyntiau diddorol iawn am y cysylltiad rhwng Cymdeithas Bêl-droed Cymru ac S4C—
—a phwysigrwydd yr iaith Gymraeg ynglŷn â darlledu. Mae hwnnw'n hollbwysig.
—and the importance of the Welsh language in broadcasting. That's a vital point.
I think that's a really important point, and that could be something that has started from this debate this afternoon and the Welsh Affairs Select Committee's inquiry into this: is there an opportunity for us to have a bespoke model for the Welsh six nations games, similar to what happens in Scotland for the Scottish FA Cup final—free-to-air, just in Scotland? Is this an opportunity for us to start a discussion? Alun Davies is shaking his head, but I think this could be an opportunity to start the discussion, rather than coming to a final conclusion here this afternoon.
Now, if you follow James Evans on Instagram, and I'm sure every one of us here does with gusto. If you don't, you are missing out, because every Saturday, or every Thursday, when the team is announced for Gwernyfed, he shares it on his Instagram, and there is James Evans wearing the No. 7 shirt for his home side—[Interruption.] Lock forward. He's moved further forward; in a couple of years' time, he'll be in the front row. But he's right again, and this is the theme of the evening: the participation or lack thereof if this moves behind a paywall. And James talked quite eloquently about the cost of the subscriptions. If you've got some games going onto TNT Sports, Sky Sports, Netflix and Amazon as well, that's a really difficult balancing act for families to do, to try to bring all of these subscription services into one pay cheque, so that they can watch Wales play rugby.
Alun Davies, it shows, I'm sorry, the disparity in our ages here, where your first game was in the 1980s. [Laughter.] Only because he and I had a joke about our ages in committee earlier this morning, I felt safe in the knowledge that he wouldn't retaliate too brutally. But you're absolutely right that these early memories of rugby games are part of our DNA. That was the language used here again: 'DNA', 'identity', 'part of who we are'. And absolutely the community game needs role models. It might have shown my skill as a rugby player growing up that my role models weren't the players, but the commentators, more than anything else. And I mentioned it last week in terms of Eddie Butler—the late, great Eddie Butler. My favourite line of his in the 2005 six nations was, 'Shave away, Gavin, shave away', when Gavin Henson kicked that winning penalty against England. That's a line that has stuck with me because that game was free-to-air.
Laura Anne Jones talked, again, about the ability of rugby to bring family and friends together, inspiring that next generation. And I'm conscious that I'm really testing the Llywydd's patience, but it's a topic that I'm incredibly passionate about. And I'm not going to draw—. Hefin's intervention on the Deputy Minister, I'm not going to draw any more attention to the name that he mentioned or that the Deputy Minister mentioned. What I would draw attention to is Sarra Elgan, Gabby Logan, Sonja McLaughlan and Lauren Jenkins, four female commentators who are at the pinnacle of their career, at the pinnacle of commentary and presenting, and all credit to them for the role that they do.
So, for us, how can I sum up and close this? The six nations tournament is the greatest—it's one of the greatest—sporting fixtures annually and internationally, and here in Wales, rugby is a religion; the Principality Stadium, a church. And come Saturday and the start of the six nations, a congregation of over 3 million will be willing on the men in red. So, good luck to Gatland's men and I urge everyone to support the Welsh Conservative motion this evening. Diolch, Llywydd.
Rwy'n credu bod hwnnw'n bwynt pwysig iawn, a gallai hynny fod yn rhywbeth sydd wedi dechrau o'r ddadl hon y prynhawn yma ac ymchwiliad y Pwyllgor Dethol Materion Cymreig i hyn: a oes cyfle i ni gael model pwrpasol ar gyfer gemau chwe gwlad Cymru, yn debyg i'r hyn sy'n digwydd yn yr Alban ar gyfer rownd derfynol Cwpan FA yr Alban—ar deledu am ddim, yn yr Alban yn unig? A yw hwn yn gyfle i ni gychwyn sgwrs? Mae Alun Davies yn ysgwyd ei ben, ond rwy'n credu y gallai hyn fod yn gyfle i ddechrau'r drafodaeth, yn hytrach na dod i gasgliad terfynol yma y prynhawn yma.
Nawr, os ydych chi'n dilyn James Evans ar Instagram, ac rwy'n siŵr fod pob un ohonom ni yma yn gwneud hynny'n frwd. Os nad ydych chi, rydych chi ar eich colled, oherwydd bob dydd Sadwrn, neu bob dydd Iau, pan gyhoeddir y tîm ar gyfer Gwernyfed, mae'n ei rannu ar ei Instagram, ac mae James Evans yn gwisgo crys Rhif 7 ei dîm cartref—[Torri ar draws.] Clo. Mae wedi symud ymlaen ymhellach; mewn blwyddyn neu ddwy, fe fydd yn y rheng flaen. Ond mae'n iawn eto, a dyma thema'r noson: y cyfranogiad neu'r diffyg cyfranogiad os yw hyn yn symud y tu ôl i wal dalu. A siaradodd James yn eithaf huawdl am gost y tanysgrifiadau. Os oes gennych chi rai gemau'n mynd ar TNT Sports, Sky Sports, Netflix ac Amazon hefyd, mae'n anodd iawn i deuluoedd bwyso a mesur, a cheisio dod â'r holl wasanaethau tanysgrifio o fewn un taliad, fel y gallant wylio Cymru'n chwarae rygbi.
Alun Davies, mae'n ddrwg gennyf, ond mae'n dangos y gwahaniaeth yn ein hoedran yma, lle roedd eich gêm gyntaf yn yr 1980au. [Chwerthin.] Dim ond oherwydd iddo ef a minnau gael jôc am ein hoedrannau yn y pwyllgor yn gynharach y bore yma y teimlwn yn ddiogel gan wybod na fyddai'n dial yn rhy llym. Ond rydych chi'n hollol iawn fod yr atgofion cynnar hyn o gemau rygbi yn rhan o'n DNA. Dyna'r iaith a ddefnyddiwyd yma eto: 'DNA', 'hunaniaeth', 'rhan o bwy ydym'. Ac yn sicr, mae angen modelau rôl ar y gêm gymunedol. Efallai ei fod wedi dangos fy sgiliau fel chwaraewr rygbi wrth dyfu i fyny nad y chwaraewyr oedd fy modelau rôl, ond y sylwebyddion, yn fwy na dim arall. A soniais am hynny yr wythnos diwethaf wrth sôn am Eddie Butler—y diweddar anfarwol Eddie Butler. Fy hoff frawddeg ganddo yn y chwe gwlad yn 2005 oedd, 'Shave away, Gavin, shave away', pan giciodd Gavin Henson y gic gosb fuddugol yn erbyn Lloegr. Mae'n frawddeg sydd wedi aros gyda mi oherwydd bod y gêm honno ar deledu am ddim.
Siaradodd Laura Anne Jones, unwaith eto, am allu rygbi i ddod â theulu a ffrindiau ynghyd, gan ysbrydoli'r genhedlaeth nesaf. Ac rwy'n ymwybodol fy mod yn profi amynedd y Llywydd, ond mae'n bwnc yr wyf yn hynod angerddol yn ei gylch. Ac nid wyf am dynnu—. Ymyriad Hefin ar y Dirprwy Weinidog, nid wyf am dynnu mwy o sylw at yr enw a grybwyllodd neu a grybwyllwyd gan y Dirprwy Weinidog. Rwyf am dynnu sylw at Sarra Elgan, Gabby Logan, Sonja McLaughlan a Lauren Jenkins, y pedair yn sylwebyddion benywaidd ar anterth eu gyrfa, ar y brig yn y maes sylwebu a chyflwyno, a phob clod iddynt am y gwaith a wnânt.
Felly, i ni, sut y gallaf grynhoi a chloi hyn? Pencampwriaeth y chwe gwlad yw'r digwyddiad chwaraeon blynyddol a rhyngwladol mwyaf—mae'n un o'r mwyaf—ac yma yng Nghymru, mae rygbi'n grefydd; Stadiwm Principality, eglwys. A phan ddaw dydd Sadwrn a dechrau'r chwe gwlad, bydd cynulleidfa o dros 3 miliwn y tu cefn i'r dynion mewn coch. Felly, pob lwc i ddynion Gatland ac rwy'n annog pawb i gefnogi cynnig y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig heno. Diolch, Lywydd.
Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Na, does yna dim gwrthwynebiad. Fydd yna ddim pleidlais. Mae'r cynnig wedi'i dderbyn gan bawb.
The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? There are no objections. And therefore, there will be no vote. The motion is agreed.
Derbyniwyd y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.
Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.
Fe wnawn ni nawr gyrraedd y cyfnod pleidleisio. Oni bai bod tri Aelod eisiau i fi ganu'r gloch, fe awn ni'n syth i'r bleidlais. Felly, fe fydd y bleidlais gyntaf ar eitem 8, sef y ddadl ar gynnig deddfwriaethol gan Aelod, a Bil i sefydlu goruchwyliaeth strwythuredig o reolwyr y gwasanaeth iechyd yw hwn. Dwi'n galw am bleidlais ar y cynnig a gyflwynwyd yn enw Mabon ap Gwynfor. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid, 28, 22 yn ymatal, neb yn erbyn. Felly, mae'r cynnig wedi'i dderbyn.
We will now move to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will move immediately to the first vote. That first vote is on item 8, the debate on a Member's legislative proposal, a Bill to establish structured oversight of NHS managers. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Mabon ap Gwynfor. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour, 28, 22 abstentions, none against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.
Eitem 8. Dadl ar Gynnig Deddfwriaethol gan Aelod - Bil i sefydlu goruchwyliaeth strwythuredig o reolwyr y GIG: O blaid: 28, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 22
Derbyniwyd y cynnig
Item 8. Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal - A Bill to establish structured oversight of NHS managers: For: 28, Against: 0, Abstain: 22
Motion has been agreed
Mae'r pleidleisiau nesaf ar eitem 12, sef dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig ar ryddhad ardrethi busnes. Dwi'n galw am bleidlais ar y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio yn enw Darren Millar. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid, 14, neb yn ymatal, 36 yn erbyn. Felly, mae'r cynnig wedi'i wrthod.
The next votes are on item 12, the Welsh Conservatives debate on business rates relief. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour, 14, no abstentions, 36 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.
Eitem 12. Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Rhyddhad ardrethi busnes. Cynnig heb ei ddiwygio: O blaid: 14, Yn erbyn: 36, Ymatal: 0
Gwrthodwyd y cynnig
Item 12. Welsh Conservatives Debate - Business rates relief. Motion without amendment: For: 14, Against: 36, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejected
Gwelliant 1 nesaf. Dwi'n galw am bleidlais ar welliant 1 a gyflwynwyd yn enw Lesley Griffiths. Os derbynnir gwelliant 1, bydd gwelliant 2 yn cael ei ddad-ddethol. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid, 26, neb yn ymatal, 24 yn erbyn. Felly, mae gwelliant 1 wedi'i dderbyn, gwelliant 2 wedi'i ddad-ddethol.
Amendment 1 next. I now call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour, 26, no abstentions, 24 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed and amendment 2 is deselected.
Eitem 12. Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Rhyddhad ardrethi busnes. Gwelliant 1, cyflwynwyd yn enw Lesley Griffiths: O blaid: 26, Yn erbyn: 24, Ymatal: 0
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Item 12. Welsh Conservatives Debate - Business rates relief. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 26, Against: 24, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreed
Cafodd gwelliant 2 ei ddad-ddethol.
Amendment 2 deselected.
Felly, y bleidlais nesaf ar welliant 3 yn enw Luke Fletcher. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid, 26, neb yn ymatal, 24 yn erbyn, gwelliant 3 wedi'i dderbyn.
I therefore call for a vote on amendment 3, tabled in the name of Luke Fletcher. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour, 26, no abstentions, 24 against. Therefore, amendment 3 is agreed.
Eitem 12. Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Rhyddhad ardrethi busnes. Gwelliant 3, cyflwynwyd yn enw Luke Fletcher: O blaid: 26, Yn erbyn: 24, Ymatal: 0
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Item 12. Welsh Conservatives Debate - Business rates relief. Amendment 3, tabled in the name of Luke Fletcher: For: 26, Against: 24, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreed
Pleidlais, felly, yn olaf, ar y cynnig wedi'i ddiwygio.
We will finally vote on the motion as amended.
Cynnig NDM8469 fel y'i diwygiwyd:
Cynnig bod y Senedd:
1. Yn croesawu’r ffaith bod Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer 2024-25, a hynny er gwaethaf y ffaith ei bod werth £1.3 biliwn yn llai mewn termau real nag ydoedd adeg ei gosod yn 2021:
a) yn darparu pecyn o gymorth ar gyfer ardrethi annomestig sydd werth £384 miliwn;
b) yn rhoi cap o 5 y cant ar y cynnydd yn sgil chwyddiant i'r lluosydd ardrethi annomestig; ac
c) yn darparu rhyddhad o ran ardrethi annomestig i fusnesau manwerthu, hamdden a lletygarwch am y pumed flwyddyn yn olynol, gan adeiladu ar y cymorth sydd werth bron i £1 biliwn a ddarparwyd ers 2020-21.
2. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i symud oddi wrth ardrethi annomestig, cyhoeddi amserlen ar gyfer eu gwaith, a sicrhau bod map ffordd ar gyfer pontio allan o ardrethi annomestig yn cael ei ddarparu yn ogystal ag opsiynau ar gyfer system newydd.
Motion NDM8469 as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Welcomes that, despite its budget being worth £1.3 billion less in real terms than when it was set in 2021, the Welsh Government’s 2024-25 Draft Budget:
a) provides a package of support for non-domestic rates worth £384 million;
b) limits inflationary growth in the non-domestic rates multiplier to 5 per cent; and
c) provides a fifth successive year of non-domestic rates relief for retail, leisure and hospitality businesses, building on the almost £1 billion of support provided since 2020-21.
2. Calls on the Welsh Government to move away from non-domestic rates, publish a timescale for their work, and ensure a roadmap to transition out of non-domestic rates is provided as well as options for a new system.
Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid saith, neb yn ymatal, 43 yn erbyn, ac felly mae'r cynnig wedi ei ddiwygio wedi ei wrthod.
Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour seven, no abstentions, 43 against, and therefore the motion as amended is not agreed.
Eitem 12. Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Rhyddhad ardrethi busnes. Cynnig wedi'i ddiwygio: O blaid: 7, Yn erbyn: 43, Ymatal: 0
Gwrthodwyd y cynnig fel y'i diwygiwyd
Item 12. Welsh Conservatives Debate - Business rates relief. Motion as amended: For: 7, Against: 43, Abstain: 0
Motion as amended has been rejected
Ac felly, dyna ddiwedd ar y pleidleisio.
And so, that concludes voting.
Fe fyddwn ni'n symud yn syth i'r ddadl fer.
We will move immediately to the short debate.
If Members could leave quietly—. We still have one debate to hear, and that debate is to be introduced by Sarah Murphy. Sarah Murphy, you can start.
Os gall yr Aelodau adael yn dawel—. Mae gennym un ddadl i'w chlywed o hyd, ac mae'r ddadl honno i'w chyflwyno gan Sarah Murphy. Sarah Murphy, gallwch ddechrau.
Diolch, Llywydd. I'm really pleased to be able to do this short debate today. If I could have called it 'The rock stars of cardiology are in Bridgend', I would have, but I probably wouldn't have got that past the Table Office, so instead I've gone for 'Heart failure' and looking at the innovation that is happening in the Princess of Wales Hospital in Bridgend.
Just to give a bit of background, I was very, very pleased to go and meet with the cardiology team at Princess of Wales Hospital in Cwm Taf Morgannwg health board. Dr Wong, the consultant cardiologist, and Rhys Williams, who is a specialist clinical pharmacist in cardiology, both showed me around what they've created there, which I truly think is, and many consider, some of the best work that is actually happening in Europe. This is why I just really wanted to show it off tonight.
Just a little bit of background when it comes to how serious heart failure is, and I know this is something that touches many people's lives personally or through loved ones. The national heart failure audit said that the prevalence of heart failure is estimated at 2 per cent of the population, with the Welsh population estimated at 3.3 million by July 2024, and this equates to 66,000 people nationally. The prognosis of severe heart failure is worse than the majority of common cancers, with five-year mortality estimated for around 50 per cent of people. And heart failure hospital admissions account for roughly 2 per cent of the overall NHS budget.
The British Society for Heart Failure has launched the 25in25 campaign, with the aim to reduce heart failure mortality by 25 per cent in the next 25 years, through earlier detection of symptoms, improving population health, and timely access to therapies. I also wanted to point out here that there's a wonderful article on how we end women's health inequality in the Welsh Fabian Society booklet. This was written by Gemma Roberts of the British Heart Foundation. She said that women are also more likely to be diagnosed slowly or misdiagnosed, so women not being seen as at risk of heart attack can impact whether women presenting with heart attack symptoms receive a timely and correct diagnosis.
An incorrect initial diagnosis after a heart attack increases the risk of death after 30 days by 70 per cent. And research suggests that women are 50 per cent more likely than men to receive the wrong initial diagnosis for a heart attack. The British Heart Foundation-funded researchers at the University of Leeds also found that women are referred for diagnostic testing much more slowly than men, and the study found that women who had a type of heart attack usually caused by a partially blocked artery are 34 per cent less likely than men to receive a coronary angiography imaging test within 72 hours of their hospital admission. As you would have seen then, I did turn to my colleague Alun Davies, as I believe that you have had some experience with this, very sadly, and so I would like to take an intervention from you now, so that you may be able to talk to us a little bit about what this can be like for people.
Diolch, Lywydd. Rwy'n falch iawn o allu gwneud y ddadl fer hon heddiw. Pe bawn i wedi gallu ei galw'n 'Mae'r sêr roc cardioleg ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr', byddwn wedi gwneud hynny, ond mae'n debyg na fyddwn wedi llwyddo i ddod â hi heibio i'r Swyddfa Gyflwyno, felly yn lle hynny rwyf wedi dewis 'Methiant y galon' ac edrych ar yr arloesedd sy'n digwydd yn Ysbyty Tywysoges Cymru ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr.
I roi ychydig o gefndir, roeddwn yn falch iawn o gael mynd i gyfarfod â'r tîm cardioleg yn Ysbyty Tywysoges Cymru ym mwrdd iechyd Cwm Taf Morgannwg. Dangosodd Dr Wong, y cardiolegydd ymgynghorol, a Rhys Williams, sy'n fferyllydd clinigol arbenigol mewn cardioleg, yr hyn y maent wedi'i greu yno, a chredaf fod llawer yn ei ystyried yn rhywfaint o'r gwaith gorau sy'n digwydd yn Ewrop mewn gwirionedd. Dyna pam fy mod eisiau rhoi sylw iddo heno.
Dim ond ychydig bach o gefndir ar ba mor ddifrifol yw methiant y galon, ac rwy'n gwybod bod hyn yn rhywbeth sy'n cyffwrdd â bywydau llawer o bobl yn bersonol neu drwy anwyliaid. Yn ôl archwiliad cenedlaethol o fethiant y galon, amcangyfrifir bod nifer yr achosion o fethiant y galon yn 2 y cant o'r boblogaeth, gydag amcangyfrif bod poblogaeth Cymru yn 3.3 miliwn erbyn Gorffennaf 2024, ac mae hyn yn cyfateb i 66,000 o bobl yn genedlaethol. Mae prognosis methiant difrifol y galon yn waeth na'r mwyafrif o ganserau cyffredin, gydag amcangyfrif y bydd 50 y cant o bobl yn marw o fewn pum mlynedd. A derbyniadau i'r ysbyty oherwydd methiant y galon sydd i gyfrif am oddeutu 2 y cant o gyllideb gyffredinol y GIG.
Mae'r Gymdeithas Brydeinig ar gyfer Methiant y Galon wedi lansio ymgyrch 25in25, gyda'r nod o ostwng y nifer o farwolaethau o ganlyniad i fethiant y galon 25 y cant dros y 25 mlynedd nesaf, drwy ganfod symptomau yn gynharach, gwella iechyd y boblogaeth, a mynediad amserol at therapïau. Roeddwn eisiau tynnu sylw hefyd at y ffaith bod yna erthygl wych ar sut y gallwn roi diwedd ar anghydraddoldeb iechyd menywod yn llyfryn Cymdeithas Fabian Cymru. Fe'i hysgrifennwyd gan Gemma Roberts o Sefydliad Prydeinig y Galon. Dywedodd fod diagnosis menywod hefyd yn arafach a'u bod yn fwy tebygol o gael camddiagnosis, fel bod y canfyddiad nad yw menywod yn wynebu risg o drawiad ar y galon yn gallu effeithio ar i ba raddau y mae menywod â symptomau trawiad ar y galon yn cael diagnosis amserol a chywir.
Mae diagnosis cychwynnol anghywir ar ôl trawiad ar y galon yn creu cynnydd o 70 y cant yn y risg o farwolaeth ar ôl 30 diwrnod. Ac mae ymchwil yn awgrymu bod menywod 50 y cant yn fwy tebygol na dynion o gael diagnosis cychwynnol anghywir ar gyfer trawiad ar y galon. Canfu'r ymchwilwyr a ariennir gan Sefydliad Prydeinig y Galon ym Mhrifysgol Leeds hefyd fod menywod yn cael eu hatgyfeirio am brofion diagnostig yn arafach o lawer na dynion, a chanfu'r astudiaeth fod menywod a gafodd fath o drawiad ar y galon a achosir fel arfer gan rydweli wedi'i rhwystro'n rhannol 34 y cant yn llai tebygol na dynion o gael prawf delweddu angiograffeg coronaidd o fewn 72 awr i gael eu derbyn i'r ysbyty. Fel y byddech wedi gweld, fe wneuthum droi at fy nghyd-Aelod, Alun Davies, gan fy mod yn credu eich bod wedi cael rhywfaint o brofiad gyda hyn, yn anffodus iawn, ac felly hoffwn dderbyn ymyriad gennych chi nawr, i chi allu siarad ychydig bach gyda ni ynglŷn â sut brofiad yw hyn i bobl.
I'm grateful to the Member for Bridgend and Porthcawl for bringing this debate this evening. I think it's really important and essential that you've done this, because as one of the 3 per cent of people in Wales who survive an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest, my experience tells me that we need to have a far more holistic approach to heart health, and the ability to spot early, treat early, and, then, work with people to overcome the issues that they faced in their lives. And I hope the Minister, in replying to this debate, will pay tribute to the work that's being done in the Princess of Wales Hospital, but will also look towards a cardiology programme that is more holistic than we have at present, which brings together the prevention and the treatment, and, then, the rehabilitation, to ensure that we have that approach that takes care of people who do suffer these issues in their lifetimes.
Rwy'n ddiolchgar i'r Aelod dros Ben-y-bont ar Ogwr a Phorthcawl am gyflwyno'r ddadl hon heno. Rwy'n credu ei bod yn bwysig iawn ac yn hanfodol eich bod wedi gwneud hyn, oherwydd fel un o'r 3 y cant o bobl yng Nghymru sy'n goroesi ataliad y galon y tu allan i'r ysbyty, mae fy mhrofiad yn dweud wrthyf fod angen inni gael dull llawer mwy cyfannol o ymdrin ag iechyd y galon, a'r gallu i ganfod problemau'n gynnar, i drin yn gynnar a gweithio gyda phobl i oresgyn y problemau a wynebir ganddynt yn eu bywydau. Ac rwy'n gobeithio y bydd y Gweinidog, wrth ymateb i'r ddadl hon, yn talu teyrnged i'r gwaith sy'n cael ei wneud yn Ysbyty Tywysoges Cymru, ond y bydd hefyd yn edrych ar raglen cardioleg sy'n fwy cyfannol na'r hyn sydd gennym ar hyn o bryd, gan ddwyn ynghyd yr atal a'r driniaeth, ac, yna, yr adsefydlu, i sicrhau bod gennym ddull sy'n gofalu am bobl sy'n dioddef y pethau hyn yn ystod eu hoes.
Daeth Joyce Watson i’r Gadair.
Joyce Watson took the Chair.
Thank you very much, Alun Davies. It brings me on, really, to the next section I want to discuss, which is treatment. Guideline-directed medical therapies, known as the four pillars of treatment, can help to reduce mortality, improve quality of life, and reduce the risk of hospital admission due to breathlessness and fluid retention. And these benefits can be seen as early as 14 days after starting treatment. Better outcomes are associated with higher doses, so require repeated visits. Four-pillar therapy also further reduces the need for other potential costly interventions, including implantation of cardiac devices, ventricular assist devices, and cardiac transplantation. Delays, though, in access to these treatments can have significant consequences for patient outcomes, as mentioned above.
Looking at the Princess of Wales model, it's been led by Dr Aaron Wong and is a multidisciplinary approach. Heart failure specialist nurses are part of the team. There's a review of hospital in-patients, providing education to patients and carers, and optimising medicines prior to discharge, an ambulatory review of patients who call the heart failure helpline, or management of their symptoms, avoiding likely hospital admissions and emergency department visits. A multidisciplinary team, working with palliative care, provide advance care planning to patients who are within the last 12 months of their life.
And then it brings me on to what I think is quite unique about this programme, which is the collaboration with the pharmacy department. I had another visit where I got to go around the pharmacy department in the Princess of Wales Hospital. I think, up until that point, I didn't realise what a huge thing it is, really, what a huge department it is, how much they do there. And they work tremendously, and I do think to myself sometimes, if I ever stopped being a politician, I'd love to go back and retrain in pharmacy. I just find it absolutely fascinating, and I think that it's so much more than some people realise, and prescribing pharmacy especially. So, the way that we're boosting up those specialist pharmacists, Minister, I think is a tremendous help throughout our NHS.
What the heart failure pharmacists, like Rhys, are doing is they're providing timely optimisation of the four-pillar therapies—optimisation of cardiovascular risk factors, including diabetes, hypertension and cholesterol. And work from the Bridgend heart failure service has been presented on the European stage. So, again, I just want to say I think that the beauty of this is that Rhys will run his clinic, where people will come in and see him and check their medication and check that they're doing really well, and, then, you've got Dr Wong there who will catch people very quickly when they come in and they present with these issues. He's got the absolute best technology there to do those assessments so much more quickly. They've actually managed to reduce it, I believe, from 12 months down to three months in the Princess of Wales.
My understanding is, though, that this kind of pilot scheme has been funded—and they usually are, these kind of pilot schemes—by the pharmaceutical companies, and, now, they're in the process of making that business case to the health board, so that it will hopefully get picked up. But I would also like to see this rolled out everywhere.
So, just to summarise, these are some of the recommendations that are requested from the Welsh Government: for heart failure to become a national priority condition, and, also, for funding to allow the continuation of heart failure outpatient services to treat patients closer to home, preventing hospital admissions and reducing workload for primary care clinicians—I suppose that's much more in line with what you were saying, Alun Davies, that holistic approach—local enhanced services for community pharmacies to screen patients for common comorbidities, including hypertension, diabetes and high cholesterol, and, then, also, to promote and raise awareness of heart failure on a national level, with support from key stakeholders, including the British Society for Heart Failure, Pumping Marvellous—I hadn't actually heard of that one before, but they sound great—the British Heart Foundation, and Cardiomyopathy UK. Thank you very much. Thank you, Minister.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Alun Davies. Daw â mi at y rhan nesaf yr hoffwn ei thrafod, sef triniaeth. Gall therapïau meddygol a gyfeirir gan ganllawiau, a elwir yn bedair colofn triniaeth, helpu i leihau marwolaethau, gwella ansawdd bywyd, a lleihau'r risg o gael eich derbyn i'r ysbyty oherwydd diffyg anadl a hylif yn cronni. A gellir gweld y manteision hyn mor gynnar â 14 diwrnod ar ôl dechrau triniaeth. Mae canlyniadau gwell yn gysylltiedig â dosau uwch, felly mae angen ymweliadau mynych. Mae therapi pedair colofn hefyd yn lleihau'r angen am ymyriadau eraill a allai fod yn gostus, gan gynnwys mewnblannu dyfeisiau cardiaidd, dyfeisiau cymorth fentriglaidd, a thrawsblannu cardiaidd. Fodd bynnag, gall oedi cyn cael y triniaethau hyn arwain at ganlyniadau sylweddol i gleifion, fel y crybwyllwyd uchod.
Wrth edrych ar fodel Tywysoges Cymru, mae wedi ei arwain gan Dr Aaron Wong ac mae'n ddull amlddisgyblaethol. Mae nyrsys arbenigol methiant y galon yn rhan o'r tîm. Ceir adolygiad o gleifion mewnol ysbytai, darparu addysg i gleifion a gofalwyr, a gwneud y gorau o feddyginiaethau cyn eu rhyddhau, adolygiad o allu cleifion i gerdded pan fyddant yn ffonio'r llinell gymorth methiant y galon, neu reoli eu symptomau, gan osgoi derbyniadau tebygol i'r ysbyty ac ymweliadau ag adrannau brys. Mae tîm amlddisgyblaethol, sy'n gweithio gyda gofal lliniarol, yn darparu cynlluniau gofal ymlaen llaw i gleifion sydd yn 12 mis olaf eu bywyd.
Ac yna daw â mi at yr hyn y credaf ei fod yn eithaf unigryw am y rhaglen hon, sef y cydweithrediad â'r adran fferylliaeth. Cefais ymweliad arall lle cefais fynd o amgylch yr adran fferylliaeth yn Ysbyty Tywysoges Cymru. Hyd at y pwynt hwnnw, nid wyf yn credu fy mod yn sylweddoli pa mor enfawr ydyw mewn gwirionedd, pa mor enfawr yw'r adran, a faint maent yn ei wneud yno. Ac maent yn gweithio'n aruthrol, ac rwy'n meddwl weithiau, pe bawn i byth yn rhoi'r gorau i fod yn wleidydd, buaswn wrth fy modd yn mynd yn ôl i ailhyfforddi mewn fferylliaeth. Mae'n faes mor ddiddorol, ac rwy'n credu ei fod cymaint yn fwy nag y mae rhai pobl yn sylweddoli, a fferylliaeth sy'n presgripsiynu yn enwedig. Felly, rwy'n credu bod y ffordd y rhoddwn hwb i'r fferyllwyr arbenigol hynny, Weinidog, yn help aruthrol ledled ein GIG.
Yr hyn y mae fferyllwyr methiant y galon, fel Rhys, yn ei wneud yw darparu optimeiddiad amserol o'r therapïau pedair colofn—optimeiddio ffactorau risg cardiofasgwlaidd, gan gynnwys diabetes, pwysedd gwaed uchel a cholesterol. Ac mae gwaith o wasanaeth methiant y galon Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr wedi'i gyflwyno ar y llwyfan Ewropeaidd. Felly, unwaith eto, hoffwn ddweud fy mod yn credu mai'r hyn sy'n wych yw y bydd Rhys yn rhedeg ei glinig, lle bydd pobl yn dod i mewn i'w weld, ac yn archwilio eu meddyginiaeth a gwneud yn siŵr eu bod yn gwneud yn dda iawn, ac yna, mae gennych chi Dr Wong yno a fydd yn dal pobl yn gyflym iawn pan fyddant yn dod i mewn gyda'r problemau hyn. Mae ganddo'r dechnoleg orau i wneud yr asesiadau gymaint yn gyflymach. Maent wedi llwyddo i'w leihau, rwy'n credu, o 12 mis i dri mis yn Ysbyty Tywysoges Cymru.
Fy nealltwriaeth i, serch hynny, yw bod y math hwn o gynllun peilot wedi cael ei ariannu—fel y mae'r mathau hyn o gynlluniau peilot yn aml—gan y cwmnïau fferyllol, a nawr, maent yn y broses o gyflwyno'r achos busnes i'r bwrdd iechyd, lle caiff ei dderbyn gobeithio. Ond hoffwn weld hyn yn cael ei gyflwyno ym mhobman hefyd.
Felly, i grynhoi, dyma rai o'r argymhellion y gofynnir amdanynt gan Lywodraeth Cymru: i fethiant y galon ddod yn gyflwr â blaenoriaeth yn genedlaethol, a hefyd, i gyllid ganiatáu i wasanaethau cleifion allanol methiant y galon barhau i drin cleifion allanol yn agosach at eu cartrefi, gan atal derbyniadau i'r ysbyty a lleihau llwyth gwaith clinigwyr gofal sylfaenol—mae'n debyg fod hynny'n cyd-fynd yn llawer agosach â'r hyn yr oeddech chi'n ei ddweud, Alun Davies, y dull cyfannol hwnnw—gwasanaethau lleol estynedig i fferyllfeydd cymunedol allu sgrinio cleifion am gydafiacheddau cyffredin, gan gynnwys pwysedd gwaed uchel, diabetes a cholesterol uchel, a hefyd, hyrwyddo a chodi ymwybyddiaeth o fethiant y galon ar lefel genedlaethol, gyda chefnogaeth gan randdeiliaid allweddol, gan gynnwys y Gymdeithas Brydeinig ar gyfer Methiant y Galon, Pumping Marvellous—nid oeddwn wedi clywed am y rheini o'r blaen, ond maent yn swnio'n wych—Sefydliad Prydeinig y Galon, a Cardiomyopathy UK. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Diolch yn fawr, Weinidog.
I now call on the Minister for Health and Social Services to reply to the debate. Eluned Morgan.
Galwaf yn awr ar y Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol i ymateb i'r ddadl. Eluned Morgan.
Diolch yn fawr. Diolch yn fawr, Sarah. Thank you very much for bringing this debate forward. You talked about the rock stars of cardiology in the Princess of Wales Hospital. I was meeting today with the rock stars of orthopaedic day surgery, watching a rather gory knee replacement, but I've no doubt that the way you've described the cardiologists and their innovations is certainly something that would qualify them to be the rock stars of cardiology. So, thank you very much, and thank you for all the interest you're taking on behalf of your constituents. I think developing improvements and innovation in healthcare is a goal we constantly strive for, and I think it's vital to improving the lives of the people of Wales.
Diolch yn fawr. Diolch yn fawr, Sarah, am gyflwyno'r ddadl hon. Roeddech chi'n sôn am sêr roc cardioleg yn Ysbyty Tywysoges Cymru. Roeddwn i'n cyfarfod heddiw â sêr roc llawdriniaeth ddydd orthopedig, a gwylio llawdriniaeth waedlyd braidd i osod pen-glin newydd, ond nid oes gennyf unrhyw amheuaeth fod y ffordd y disgrifioch chi'r cardiolegwyr a'u harloesedd yn sicr yn rhywbeth a fyddai'n eu cymhwyso i fod yn sêr roc cardioleg. Felly, diolch yn fawr iawn, a diolch am yr holl ddiddordeb sydd gennych ar ran eich etholwyr. Rwy'n credu bod datblygu gwelliannau ac arloesedd mewn gofal iechyd yn nod yr ydym yn ymdrechu'n gyson i'w gyrraedd, ac rwy'n credu bod hynny'n hanfodol i wella bywydau pobl Cymru.
We know that heart diseases have a huge impact on the people of Wales, and one of the points I'm really keen to amplify today, as you noted in the book that you read from, is the fact that so many women in Wales suffer from heart disease. The British Heart Foundation estimate that at least 100,000 women are living with some form of heart disease in Wales today. The most common of these is coronary heart disease, with around 45,000 women in Wales living with this condition, and many will be shocked to hear that it causes twice as many deaths as breast cancer. I'll forever be grateful for the presentation made to me by the British Heart Foundation, which demonstrated that women have a 50 per cent higher chance than men of receiving the wrong initial diagnosis following a heart attack, and this was one of the key factors that made me pursue a new focus on women and health in Wales.
I think it's really important that women's health issues aren't all put into a gynaecological category. Women are so often treated differently when it comes to issues like diagnosing heart disease, and I really think this has to change. We've got a long way to go to correct that problem, but we're now at least on the right path with a new clinical lead for women's health appointed recently. There are multiple types of heart disease, which includes coronary heart disease, resulting in the heart's blood supply being blocked due to fatty substances. Worldwide, this the single biggest killer of women.
Another significant heart disease is heart failure, where the heart is not strong enough to pump blood around the body. Over 1 million people in the UK have heart failure. The number of new cases per year is now similar to the four most common causes of cancer combined. In Wales, there are 38,000 people with diagnosed heart failure, with potentially thousands of people living with it and not knowing that they're living with it. The incidence of heart failure is rising, and it's projected to rise significantly, in part due to our ageing population and as a consequence of improved survival rates for heart attacks. We're all very pleased that Alun is still with us to tell the tale, and he's quite right to point out that, actually, for an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest, the chance of survival is very slim. So, we're all very pleased that you're still with us, Alun. Currently, 80 percent of heart failure is diagnosed in hospital following an admission with symptoms, and reviews of this group have shown that 40 per cent of these people had symptoms in the months prior to admission that could have triggered an earlier assessment in primary care.
Whilst there's naturally a focus on technological advances, I think it's really important to remember the need for societal developments as well. That focus on prevention, on working collaboratively and consistently, I think, is really important to raise awareness, education, messaging to the public—all of that's going to aid people, I think, to deliver and live healthier lifestyles, whilst also being able to correctly and confidently recognise those symptoms on cardiac issues. To help in this prevention space, the Wales cardiovascular network is working with the British Society for Heart Failure on its 25in25 campaign, and that calls for a national quality improvement initiative to reduce deaths by 25 per cent in the next 25 years, and create a community-based approach to early detection of heart failure. Swansea Bay is the first 25in25 fast-track community in the whole of the United Kingdom, so it's not just the Princess of Wales that is doing good work in this space.
In addition to prevention, early, accurate diagnosis is key to improving the outcomes for those at risk of heart failure. It's important that reviews and diagnostics are achieved in a timely manner to support effective treatment. We see good practice of this across Wales, and Swansea Bay has recently won an NHS Wales award for their heart failure pathway in Gorseinon Hospital, providing rapid access for patients at their new heart failure clinic. Clinicians in Wales have also been considering how to optimise the interactions they have with patients as well as the treatments being provided. In recent years, reviews of drug treatment for those experiencing heart failure have resulted in evidence from within clinics of significant benefits, such as the reduction of admissions and signs that we're beginning to see—[Inaudible.]
Other examples of innovation and supportive treatment for patients include Aneurin Bevan, who are developing community heart failure hubs, where patients attend with family and friends for cardiac rehabilitation, and I think this offers really good opportunities for peer-to-peer support and signposting to supportive services, such as counselling and family support groups.
Gwyddom fod clefydau'r galon yn cael effaith enfawr ar bobl Cymru, ac un o'r pwyntiau rwy'n awyddus iawn i roi sylw iddo heddiw, fel y nodwyd gennych yn y llyfr y darllenoch chi ohono, yw'r ffaith bod cymaint o fenywod yng Nghymru yn dioddef o glefyd y galon. Mae Sefydliad Prydeinig y Galon yn amcangyfrif bod o leiaf 100,000 o fenywod yn byw gyda rhyw ffurf ar glefyd y galon yng Nghymru heddiw. Y mwyaf cyffredin o'r rhain yw clefyd coronaidd y galon, gyda thua 45,000 o fenywod yng Nghymru yn byw gyda'r cyflwr, a bydd llawer yn synnu clywed ei fod yn achosi ddwywaith cymaint o farwolaethau â chanser y fron. Byddaf yn fythol ddiolchgar am y cyflwyniad a wnaed ar fy nghyfer gan Sefydliad Prydeinig y Galon, a ddangosodd fod gan fenywod risg 50 y cant yn uwch na dynion o gael y diagnosis cychwynnol anghywir yn dilyn trawiad ar y galon, a dyna oedd un o'r ffactorau allweddol a wnaeth i mi ganolbwyntio o'r newydd ar fenywod ac iechyd yng Nghymru.
Rwy'n credu ei bod yn bwysig iawn nad yw problemau iechyd menywod i gyd yn cael eu rhoi mewn categori gynaecolegol. Mae menywod mor aml yn cael eu trin yn wahanol mewn perthynas â materion fel diagnosio clefyd y galon, ac rwy'n credu bod rhaid i hyn newid. Mae gennym ffordd bell i fynd i unioni'r broblem honno, ond rydym o leiaf ar y trywydd iawn nawr gyda phenodi arweinydd clinigol newydd ar gyfer iechyd menywod yn ddiweddar. Ceir sawl math o glefyd y galon, yn cynnwys clefyd coronaidd y galon, sy'n arwain at rwystro cyflenwad gwaed y galon gan sylweddau brasterog. Yn fyd-eang, dyma yw'r clefyd unigol sy'n lladd y nifer mwyaf o fenywod.
Clefyd y galon arall sy'n bwysig yw methiant y galon, lle nad yw'r galon yn ddigon cryf i bwmpio gwaed o amgylch y corff. Mae dros 1 filiwn o bobl yn y DU yn dioddef o fethiant y galon. Mae nifer yr achosion newydd bob blwyddyn bellach yn debyg i'r nifer ar gyfer y pedwar achos mwyaf cyffredin o ganser gyda'i gilydd. Yng Nghymru, mae 38,000 o bobl wedi cael diagnosis o fethiant y galon, gyda miloedd o bobl o bosibl yn byw gydag ef heb wybod eu bod yn byw gydag ef. Mae nifer yr achosion o fethiant y galon yn cynyddu, a rhagwelir y bydd yn codi'n sylweddol, yn rhannol oherwydd ein poblogaeth sy'n heneiddio ac o ganlyniad i gyfraddau goroesi gwell ar gyfer trawiad ar y galon. Rydym i gyd yn falch iawn fod Alun yn dal gyda ni i ddweud ei hanes, ac mae'n llygad ei le i dynnu sylw at y ffaith bod y gobaith o oroesi ar gyfer ataliad y galon y tu allan i'r ysbyty yn denau iawn. Felly, rydym i gyd yn falch iawn eich bod yn dal i fod gyda ni, Alun. Ar hyn o bryd, mae 80 y cant o'r achosion o fethiant y galon yn cael eu diagnosio yn yr ysbyty ar ôl i gleifion gael eu derbyn gyda symptomau, ac mae adolygiadau o'r grŵp hwn wedi dangos bod gan 40 y cant o'r bobl hyn symptomau yn y misoedd cyn eu derbyn a allai fod wedi sbarduno asesiad cynharach mewn gofal sylfaenol.
Er bod ffocws yn naturiol ar ddatblygiadau technolegol, rwy'n credu ei bod yn bwysig iawn cofio'r angen am ddatblygiadau cymdeithasol hefyd. Rwy'n credu bod y ffocws hwnnw ar atal, ar weithio'n gydweithredol ac yn gyson, yn bwysig iawn i godi ymwybyddiaeth, addysgu, a rhoi negeseuon i'r cyhoedd—mae hynny i gyd yn mynd i helpu pobl i gael a byw bywydau iachach, gan allu adnabod symptomau problemau cardiaidd yn gywir ac yn hyderus ar yr un pryd. I helpu gydag atal, mae rhwydwaith cardiofasgwlaidd Cymru yn gweithio gyda'r Gymdeithas Brydeinig ar gyfer Methiant y Galon ar ei hymgyrch 25in25, ac mae honno'n galw am fenter gwella ansawdd genedlaethol i leihau marwolaethau 25 y cant yn y 25 mlynedd nesaf, a chreu dull yn y gymuned o ganfod methiant y galon yn gynnar. Bae Abertawe yw'r gymuned llwybr cyflym 25in25 cyntaf yn y Deyrnas Unedig gyfan, felly nid Ysbyty Tywysoges Cymru yn unig sy'n gwneud gwaith da yn hyn o beth.
Yn ogystal ag atal, mae diagnosis cynnar, cywir yn allweddol i wella'r canlyniadau i'r rhai sydd â risg o fethiant y galon. Mae'n bwysig fod adolygiadau a diagnosteg yn cael eu cyflawni mewn modd amserol i gefnogi triniaeth effeithiol. Rydym yn gweld arferion da gyda hyn ar draws Cymru, ac yn ddiweddar enillodd Bae Abertawe wobr GIG Cymru am eu llwybr methiant y galon yn Ysbyty Gorseinon, sy'n darparu mynediad cyflym i gleifion yn eu clinig newydd ar gyfer methiant y galon. Mae clinigwyr yng Nghymru wedi bod yn ystyried hefyd sut i wneud y gorau o'r rhyngweithio y maent yn ei wneud â chleifion yn ogystal â'r triniaethau sy'n cael eu darparu. Yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf, mae adolygiadau o driniaeth cyffuriau i'r rhai sy'n profi methiant y galon wedi arwain at dystiolaeth mewn clinigau o fanteision sylweddol, megis lleihau derbyniadau ac arwyddion ein bod yn dechrau gweld—[Anghlywadwy.]
Mae enghreifftiau eraill o arloesi a thriniaeth gefnogol i gleifion yn cynnwys Aneurin Bevan, sy'n datblygu hybiau methiant y galon yn y gymuned, lle mae cleifion yn mynychu gyda theulu a ffrindiau ar gyfer adsefydlu cardiaidd, ac rwy'n credu bod hyn yn cynnig cyfleoedd da iawn ar gyfer cefnogaeth rhwng cymheiriaid ac atgyfeirio at wasanaethau cefnogol, megis cwnsela a grwpiau cymorth i deuluoedd.
Maes pwysig arall i'w ystyried yw gofal diwedd oes i bobl sydd â methiant y galon. Mae'r gwasanaeth gofal diwedd oes ar gyfer methiant y galon ym mwrdd iechyd Caerdydd a'r Fro yn un arall sydd wedi ennill gwobrau. Maen nhw'n defnyddio dull lle mae'r cardiolegydd a'r ymgynghorydd gofal lliniarol yn cydweithredu i reoli gofal cleifion sy'n wynebu eu blynyddoedd olaf, a dwi'n deall bod y gwasanaeth yma wedi gweld canlyniadau nodedig iawn i gleifion. Cyn y gwasanaeth yma, byddai cleifion yn aml yn cael eu derbyn ar frys i'r ysbyty o leiaf pump o weithiau ym mlwyddyn olaf eu bywyd, a byddai dros 80 y cant yn marw yn yr ysbyty. Nawr, wedi i'r gwasanaeth yma gael ei sefydlu, mae nifer y derbyniadau heb eu cynllunio yn mlynyddoedd olaf y claf wedi gostwng o bump i ddau, ar gyfartaledd, ac mae hyd yr arhosiad lawer yn llai oherwydd y gofal sydd ar gael gartref. Yn ogystal, erbyn hyn, mae mwy na 80 y cant o'r cleifion yn marw gartref yn unol â'u dewis, ac mae ymateb cleifion a theuluoedd wedi bod yn hynod o bositif. Mae Rhwydwaith Cardiaidd Cymru yn gweithio gyda byrddau iechyd i fabwysiadu'r gwasanaeth diwedd oes yma, ac mae gwaith wedi dechrau yng Nghwm Taf Morgannwg a Hywel Dda.
Mae bae Abertawe wedi datblygu safleoedd cryf ar gyfer methiant y galon, gan gynnwys safle CardioMEMS. Yma, mae technoleg arloesol yn cael ei defnyddio i osod synhwyrydd yn pulmonary artery y claf, sy'n gallu mesur y pwysau. Mae'r dechnoleg yma yn gallu dangos methiant y galon yn datblygu yn y claf, felly mae modd canfod hyn cyn i'r symptomau ddod yn amlwg, er mwyn gallu rhoi triniaeth briodol, gwella ansawdd bywyd cleifion ac atal derbyniadau i'r ysbyty sydd heb eu cynllunio. Mae bwrdd iechyd Caerdydd a'r Fro hefyd yn arwain yr ymchwil sy'n defnyddio dyfais therapi i drin cyflwr o'r enw HFPEF—severe heart failure with preserved ejection fraction. Cyflwr yw hyn lle nad yw cyhyr y galon yn ymlacio'n iawn, sy'n golygu bod llai o waed yn mynd i'r galon a'r cardiac output yn lleihau.
O ran ein hagwedd ehangach at arloesi, mae swyddogion polisi iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol wedi bod yn gweithio i ailgyfeirio polisi arloesi gofal iechyd. Cafodd strategaeth arloesi Cymru ei lansio fis Chwefror llynedd. Mae gwaith datblygu dan arweiniad Llywodraeth Cymru wedi bod ar y gweill ers hynny, yn cefnogi'r cynllun cyflawni, sy'n cynnwys adran benodol ar ymrwymiadau ein cenhadaeth iechyd a lles. Mae llawer i'w wneud, ond gallwn ni fod yn sicr bod yr NHS yng Nghymru yn deall pwysigrwydd arloesi a datblygu ym maes cardioleg. Dwi'n falch iawn o glywed yr hyn sy'n digwydd yn ysbyty y Princess of Wales. Rŷn ni am weld clinigwyr yn cael y cyfle i ddarparu offer sy'n achub bywydau, ac i'r cyhoedd gael y wybodaeth angenrheidiol i gefnogi pawb yn eu cymuned.
Felly, diolch eto i Sarah Murphy am gyflwyno'r ddadl bwysig yma, a dwi'n llongyfarch y bobl sydd yn gweithio yn y maes yma, yn arbennig y rheini yn y Princess of Wales Hospital, sy'n cefnogi pobl yng Nghymru. Diolch yn fawr.
Another important field to consider is end-of-life care for people who are facing heart failure. End-of-life care for heart failure in Cardiff and Vale board is another service that has won awards. They use a method where the cardiologist and the palliative care consultant work together to manage end-of-life care for patients, and I understand that this service has seen very notable results for patients. Before this service was in place, patients were often admitted as emergencies at least five times in their last year of life, and over 80 per cent would die at hospital. Now, since the establishment of this service, the number of unplanned admissions for patients in their final years of life has fallen from five to two, on average, and the length of stay is far shorter because of the care that is available in the home. As well as this, over 80 per cent of patients now pass away at home in accordance with their wishes, and the response of patients and families has been very positive. The Wales Cardiac Network is working with health boards to adopt this end-of-life service, and work has started at Cwm Taf Morgannwg and Hywel Dda on this.
Swansea bay has developed significant sites for heart failure, including a CardioMEMS site. Here, innovative technology is being applied to place a sensor in the pulmonary artery of the patient that can measure the pressure. This technology can demonstrate heart failure developing in the patient, so this can be detected before symptoms become evident, in order to provide appropriate treatment, improve the quality of life of patients and to prevent unplanned admissions to hospital. Cardiff and Vale health board is also leading research that uses a therapy device to treat a condition called HFPEF—severe heart failure with preserved ejection fraction. This is a condition where the heart's muscle doesn't relax fully, which means that less blood flows into the heart and the cardiac output decreases.
With regard to innovation more widely, health and social services policy officials have been working to redirect policy in terms of innovation in healthcare. The Wales innovation strategy was launched in February of last year, and development work led by the Welsh Government has been ongoing since then, supporting the delivery plan, which includes a specific section on our health and well-being mission commitments. There is a great deal to do, but we can be sure that the NHS in Wales understands the importance of innovation and development in cardiology. I'm very pleased to hear what is happening in the Princess of Wales Hospital. We do want to see clinicians having the opportunity to provide technology and devices that save lives, and for the public to receive the information they need to support everyone in the community.
So, thank you once again to Sarah Murphy for introducing this very important debate, and I congratulate all of those people who are working in this field, particularly those at the Princess of Wales Hospital, who are supporting people in Wales. Thank you very much.
And that brings today's proceedings to a close.
A daw hynny â'r trafodion i ben am heddiw.
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 19:19.
The meeting ended at 19:19.