National Assembly for Wales

Prynhawn da. Dyma ni yn cychwyn ar y cyfarfod y prynhawn yma. Yr eitem gyntaf heddiw fydd y cwestiynau i'r Gweinidog Cyllid a Llywodraeth Leol, ac mae'r cwestiwn cyntaf gan Vikki Howells.

The Welsh Government sees the elimination of fuel poverty as a distinct priority, particularly in the context of the ongoing fuel crisis. To reflect this, in our draft budget, we have allocated more than £190 million, over the next two financial years, to interventions aimed at reducing fuel poverty across Wales.

Thank you, Minister. Even before the recent increase in the fuel price cap, we know that nearly half of all households are at risk of fuel poverty, and I'm sure that colleagues, like me, will have experienced an increase in constituents contacting them in desperate need of advice and support. Welsh Government interventions have made a real difference in supporting communities such as Cynon Valley, but, in the face of UK Government failure to reform the broken energy market, what reassurances can you give that protecting families and children most at risk of fuel poverty will remain a priority despite wider budgetary pressures?

We have a wide range of schemes available to support people who are facing fuel poverty. I mentioned, for example, the £90 million that we've allocated to run a second Welsh Government fuel support scheme in 2022-23, and that's supporting people on low incomes with non-repayable £200 payments towards their energy bills. That scheme launched on 26 September, and now it's been extended to make sure that we encompass more eligible households. We've also provided around £4 million for the Fuel Bank Foundation so that it can introduce a national fuel voucher, and also a heat fund scheme in Wales—again, this is bespoke to us here in Wales—to ensure that households that have to prepay for their fuel, including people on a prepayment meter, who are at risk of self-disconnection, and off-grid households, who have to buy bulk fuel but can't afford to top up their tank, can both benefit from this particular scheme. Since August, the Fuel Bank Foundation has brought on board 69 partners, who can now refer people to vouchers. That includes eight national partners, alongside partners in every single local authority across Wales. And we know that fuel vouchers have already benefited more than 14,000 people living in struggling households. So, it's important that people do find out what support is available to them. And I would also recommend the discretionary assistance fund, which, again, is there to support people with energy bills if they are absolutely, really struggling, and I know that all colleagues will be signposting their vulnerable constituents to that fund.

Good afternoon, Minister. I've looked at the Bevan Foundation's evidence to the Finance Committee. I'm struck by the point, and I quote,

'that short-term measures to ease cost-of-living pressures are not a substitute for action to reduce poverty'.

And they noted that there had been limits to investment in social housing and energy efficiency. Now, aside from the need to bring forward a new Warm Homes programme, there should be a focus on ensuring new properties are available that are energy efficient and warm. In Swansea, however, just 91 homes were completed by registered social landlords, and 18 by Swansea Council, in 2021-22. And we know already that Swansea Council is a council that's failing to meet its housing targets more generally. So, what immediate efforts are you therefore making, Minister, to close the gap in Swansea's housing, to ensure that more of my constituents are safe and warm this winter?

Well, I'd first start off, of course, by commending the work that Swansea Council is doing in terms of building council houses. They've really invested significantly in social housing and have a really strong vision for council housing across the city and county of Swansea. So, I would certainly begin by recognising that. And, of course, if the Minister for housing was here this afternoon, answering this question about the housing portfolio, I'm sure that she would be keen to point you in the direction of the optimised retrofit programme, which is there to ensure that existing housing is able to be upgraded to meet the standards required to ensure that the residents therein are not experiencing fuel poverty, and would also point to the ongoing significant funding that we do provide to support the building of social housing here in Wales. And she'd also point, I'm sure, to the commitment that we have to have 20,000 more low-energy social homes across the term of this Senedd also. So, clearly, there's a huge amount of work going on in terms of delivering on those pledges. Those pledges have become more difficult, of course, because of the ongoing cost-of-living crisis, which impacts on contractors, it impacts on the supply chain. So, evidently, there will be some challenges in that regard also. 

I hold regular meetings with local authority leaders and discuss the impacts of the cost-of-living crisis, including in regard to the funding the Welsh Government is providing to enable authorities to continue their crucial support for residents.

Can I thank the Minister for her answer? She will be aware that, over the last two months, I've been raising the issue of the installation of prepayment meters and calling for an immediate ban on their installation. These meters mean the poorest residents in our society pay more for their energy, and, Llywydd, I have spoken to a number of charities who've given me evidence that court orders are being passed hundreds at a time. Now, this means that due diligence isn't being shown, so that the installation of prepayment meters is the suitable option for customers. This isn't happening. What is happening is extremely vulnerable residents in our society are being inappropriately switched. I was pleased, Minister, to see that Ed Miliband this week joined my calls for a ban on the installation of prepayment meters, but the crux of the point is we shouldn't be switching people in the middle of winter and during a cost-of-living crisis. Can I thank you for the support that you're offering to our local government partners, but can I ask you what more the Welsh Government can do to support local government partners when they're advising residents who have already been switched to prepayment meters?

I'm very grateful to Jack Sargeant for raising this this afternoon, and I do want to recognise the incredible work that Jack Sargeant is doing in terms of leading the campaign in respect of prepayment meters. Colleagues within Welsh Government are absolutely taking up that campaign on your behalf. So, the Minister for Social Justice is having a further meeting with energy suppliers on 23 January, and, again, she will be raising these concerns over reports of people, including vulnerable customers, being moved onto prepayment meters. And I know that she's made those same points in previous meetings that she's had with energy suppliers. The Minister also wrote to Grant Shapps on 23 December, outlining our concerns around prepayment meters, and we are taking opportunities, when we have them, with the UK Government again to make those cases. And officials are continuing to liaise with Ofgem to understand if customers who are moved onto prepayment meters are able to appeal the decision, because, as yet, we don't have clarity on that.

As Jack Sargeant says, this is an issue that particularly affects the most vulnerable households. It's a real concern that almost half of social housing tenants are on prepayment meters at the moment, and, obviously, that means that many of those will be paying above what other customers will be paying for their energy. So, it is quite right for us to focus our efforts in this particular space. And, obviously, I'll take opportunities in my regular discussions with local government to ensure that they're also making the right moves in this space. 

Minister, surely the best way for local government to support their residents is for them to avoid hikes in council taxes. Rising energy costs due to Putin's illegal war and rising food costs as a result of the pandemic and climate change are impacting households hard. The last thing they need are excessive tax hikes. Minister, will you urge restrain among your local authority colleagues, and will you be prepared to cap council tax in the coming financial year?

Well, I'd begin by saying that we absolutely don't underestimate the challenge that our colleagues in local government are facing from the inflationary pressures that they're experiencing at the moment. Because, of course, just as the Welsh Government's budget has been eroded in value, so too has local government's budget been eroded in value. But, nonetheless, we've really focused our efforts within our budget for the next financial year on public services, which is why, next year, we'll be providing unhypothecated revenue funding of over £5.5 billion, and over £1 billion of specific grants to support local authorities in their statutory and non-statutory services. That means that core funding for local government for 2023-24 has increased by 7.9 per cent, or £403 million, on a like-for-like basis compared to this financial year. So, we're doing absolutely everything that we can to put local authorities in the best possible position, but, of course, we know that the additional funding that we're able to provide doesn't meet that gap caused largely by inflation, and, as a result, local authorities will be needing to make some difficult decisions.

Now, it is the case, of course, that local authorities set their own council tax levels. I know that many are consulting at the moment. The Welsh Government, as you say, does have the power to cap those, but I don't think that we're at the point yet at which we could make a decision on that, and it's certainly something that we wouldn't do lightly; it's something that we would do only in cases where those rises were palpably excessive. So, just to set out, we really do think it's for local authorities to be setting their council tax levels; it's an important part of local democracy.  

We know the economic issues we're facing were made in Downing Street—[Interruption.]—and the incompetence of economic management in London, together with Brexit, has led to one of the biggest cost-of-living crises that many of us have ever seen. Now, this makes the Conservative Party laugh, of course, because when people are hungry, when people are cold, they really don't give a damn what's happening to those people, but, on this side of the Chamber, of course, we do. And what I would like you to do, Minister, is to use your power as a catalyst to bring people together. The two crises facing people in Wales of hunger and of heating are crises, as I said, that are not being resolved by the United Kingdom Government, and what we need to do is to step into this vacuum to bring people together, so that we can share best practice and share resources to address the real crisis facing some of the most vulnerable people in Blaenau Gwent, in Gower and across the whole country. 

I would absolutely agree that one of the most important things the Welsh Government can do is to bring together parties with responsibilities for serving our citizens to ensure that our efforts are combined and that we're all focused on those things that matter most to people, and that's one of the reasons why, over the course of the autumn, we did have fortnightly meetings with our colleagues in local government. One of the standing items on those fortnightly meetings was the cost-of-living crisis, alongside another standing item, which was Ukraine. We've moved those meetings now to monthly, because the situation, at the start, did require us to come up with some new interventions, but those new interventions are now in place. But, of course, it's also a standing item now on the partnership council for Wales, which will be next meeting on 2 March, and, of course, that's a much wider public services forum, to ensure that all public and voluntary sector bodies are working in the same direction, all putting their shoulders to the wheel to support our citizens through the cost-of-living crisis. And, then, I'd also mention the cost-of-living Cabinet sub-committee that the First Minister has set up. Now, to every other meeting of that committee we invite partners from outside of the Cabinet. So, we've had the Federation of Small Businesses, for example, and the Confederation of Business Industry joining us, and we've had representatives from the voluntary sector, to ensure that all of our efforts are there together in terms of supporting our residents through the cost-of-living crisis.

Cwestiynau nawr gan lefarwyr y pleidiau. Llefarydd y Ceidwadwyr, Sam Rowlands. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Before I go into my question, I'm sure, Llywydd, you'd like to join me in welcoming members of the Canadian Parliament who've joined us today through the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, and have the pleasure of observing our proceedings this afternoon. I'm sure they'll enjoy it as much as we do.

Good afternoon, Minister. You touched, in response to one of your questions earlier, on the provisional local government settlement, and, indeed, the 7.9 per cent increase to local authorities has been broadly welcomed by those authorities, but there are concerns a number of leaders have expressed. The Labour leader of the Welsh Local Government Association, Andrew Morgan, who, I'm sure, you know well, has said there are some tough decisions ahead for councils. The Plaid Cymru leader of Isle of Anglesey County Council, Llinos Medi, says hard cuts to local services are ahead, as a result of this settlement. Lib Dem-run Powys County Council are looking to close rural schools, and Labour-run Monmouthshire County Council consulted on cuts to leisure centre hours as well. All of this whilst our council tax payers are likely to face a further hike in their taxes. So, in light of this, Minister, like the comments from those council leaders, and as a result of your funding decisions, what further difficult decisions do you think our local councils will have to make? And what services do you think our residents will have to face being cut? 

I think it is important to recognise that, overall, our settlement for local government, at a 7.9 per cent increase on this financial year, has been broadly welcomed across local government. I do think that we have provided the absolute best possible settlement that we could have. We gave to local government in excess of the funding that we received in consequential funding from measures that the UK Government had outlined in its autumn statement in the fields of social care and education. We were able to do that by undertaking a very painful exercise ourselves across Government in terms of identifying areas where we could reprioritise funding towards local government and towards our health service. You'll see all of those details, of course, in the draft budget that was laid. So, I don't underestimate that local government will have to make a series of difficult decisions locally. Those decisions now should be locally led; I know that they'll be consulting with their residents as to what their residents' priorities are. But, under the circumstances, we have provided the best possible settlement. It is, of course, for the Welsh Conservatives to provide their alternative budget, which I know we were promised last year, but have yet to see materialise.

Thank you, Minister, for your response then. A key issue in regard to that funding for those local authorities is the way in which that funding is dished out. As you'll know, a significant part of funding for those councils comes in the form of grants. I believe around £1.4 billion of the funding that those councils receive comes in grants. Of course, the money itself is welcome, but perhaps the direction from Welsh Government as to where and when those grants should be spent can be both restrictive and cause an administrative burden, which holds back the work of our councils. So, in light of this, Minister, how are you working with those councils to ensure there can be further flexibility on grant allocation? How are you working to see that grants go into an unhypothecated section of their funding so they can spend that money on what is best for them and best for their local residents?

I think this is an area probably where we have more common ground, because this is a piece of work that we have been undertaking with local authorities over the past few months, at their request, to explore which areas of grant funding could potentially be moved into the revenue support grant on a short-term or permanent basis. So, that piece of work is ongoing at the moment, but we've absolutely committed to looking at that. Timescales, of course, will be important for that piece of work. But, I just want to reassure you and other colleagues who have an interest in this that our Welsh Government officials are working with officers in the WLGA and talking to treasurers across Wales to explore what might be possible.

Thank you, Minister. If I may, I just want to focus my last question on virtual council meetings. It's an issue that I've raised a number of times here in the Chamber and an issue that I raised with you last week as well. Also, we saw yesterday another media story showing a shambolic situation where it looks as though an alleged sex act took place over a Zoom meeting during a meeting of Flintshire council's cabinet—completely inappropriate, but again highlights some of the issues that we see in meetings of local government taking place virtually. Whilst virtual meetings, of course, do have positives, I raised with you last week my concerns about how these are being managed. I raised with you the concerns about a councillor allegedly driving whilst voting, we've seen evidence of proceedings being edited before they're published online, and now the latest news reports of this awful act that took place up in Flintishire council. It shows how virtual meetings can be abused in a way that can't happen in face to face, in-person meetings. So, last week, when we met, Minister, you said that you'd be looking to issue further guidance to councils. I wonder whether you would look to accelerate the issuing of that guidance and have those discussions with councils to ensure they're offering hybrid meetings and not just virtual meetings, because face-to-face meetings are so important for our residents and in the working of councils.

Thank you for raising that point this afternoon. I'd begin by recognising that hybrid working and virtual working can be a really important way in which to increase diversity in democracy, as we were discussing last week, in terms of making those meetings more accessible to people in full-time work, people with family commitments, caring commitments, people who are self-employed, and for others. But, absolutely, we would expect that the same behaviour is expected of people attending those meetings as you would expect in a council chamber. So, I will explore with the local government chief digital officer what more we can be doing in this space to ensure that everybody is clear about what's expected of them in those meetings, and perhaps we can have a further conversation about some more of your ideas in this space outside the Chamber.

Before I call the spokesperson for Plaid Cymru, can I reiterate the welcome to the parliamentarians from Canada to our Senedd, our Parliament, today? And I hope you have a fruitful visit to Wales and to our Parliament, and thank you for bringing just a tiny little bit of your winter weather to us as well. 

Felly, croeso i chi i gyd. Llefarydd Plaid Cymru nawr, Llyr Gruffydd.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. And it was very good to share an hour of our time as well to compare notes in relation to the work that we do as the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee as well. 

So, diolch am hynny.

Minister, we've heard about concerns about contracting public services, particularly in relation to local government, as a result of the financial situation that our councils find themselves in. Now, one graphic demonstration of that of course was the fact that Newport are actually considering switching off alternate street lights between midnight and 6 a.m. to cut down on energy costs. Colleagues of mine on these benches have already raised concerns about the impact that might have and the consequences particularly in terms of compromising the safety of night-time pedestrians, especially women and those who maybe aren't confident and stable on their feet maybe—older people et cetera—and potential consequences in terms then of deteriorating health, mental and physical. There is a strong correlation of course between improved street lighting and reduced crime rates as well. So, one simple decision—I say 'simple' in a qualified manner, but one decision—can obviously have much wider implications and impacts.

So, my question to you is: what advice are you giving to local councils, or what discussions are you having with local authorities? Because, obviously, at the end of the day, these isolated decisions—. And you could scale these decisions up if they're collective decisions—collective impacts of similar decisions made elsewhere. But what advice are you giving to local councils about the risk that some of these decisions, made today to save money, may well cost the public purse more money in the longer term?

I think the example that you give really serves to highlight the difficult decisions that local authorities are considering at the moment, and they span a really wide range of matters that are of importance to their residents. So, decisions must be taken, of course, through the lens of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, so, they'll be needing to consider what the decisions that they're taking mean in terms of sustainable communities. And of course, the equality impact assessments will be important as well in terms of understanding the impact on people with particular protected characteristics: on women, older people, which you've given as examples. 

So, I know that councils will be diligent in that work, but I know that councils will have to make some decisions that are difficult, because they do speak to me about the gaps that still remain in the funding that they have for next year. And I know that they're setting out some of those proposals in their consultations with local residents. So, clearly, they will have to listen very carefully to what local residents are telling them are their priorities for their communities as they move forward. But, as I say, we've provided local authorities with the best possible settlement. I think that you probably would have to go a long way to find a local government leader who'd rather be in England than in Wales and you'd probably find a fair few in England who would also prefer to be here as well. That's because, over those long years of austerity, we still protected local government as far as we possibly could. So, that remains the case, that we're protecting them in the next financial year as far as we can. And I described earlier in this session the difficult work that we did to repurpose money towards local government and health from other areas of Government. 

Well, my concern is Wales of course; I have no jurisdiction for England. But certainly I think we need to be mindful that these individual decisions will consequently lead to, maybe, pressures coming from other directions. 

Now, linked to this, really, the Welsh Government is introducing legislation and regulation, much of which we support, and they are very worthy in terms of what we want to achieve and are well intentioned, but much of this is introducing additional duties and responsibilities to local government. We've seen it happen with organisations such as Natural Resources Wales, where, a few years ago, the Planning (Wales) Act 2015, the future generations Act, the Environment (Wales) Act 2016, all stacked up additional duties on that particular organisation at the same time of course as reducing budgets, to put it on quite an unsustainable trajectory in terms of delivering on those services. I'd ask you how mindful you are of those pressures in terms of local government. I've touched on this with you before: what consideration has the Government given to re-profiling the introduction of some of these duties? The 20 mph zones are obviously bringing with them a hefty burden of work that needs to be completed. Is that something that the Government would be open-minded to maybe delaying or looking at re-profiling in terms of its expectation around local government to introduce that? Even the single-use plastic ban—there will be an enforcement responsibility on local government. Now, we would all want to see that coming into being as soon as possible, but I think we do need a pragmatism and a practical approach to some of this. So, my question is: to what extent are you actively looking at this agenda, and to what extent are you actually discussing this with local government? And if you are, maybe you could give us a few examples of some things that you are actively considering in that respect. 

So, just to return briefly to the first part of your question, I would just like to say that this is one of the reasons why the strategic impact assessments are so important, because they do look at the cumulative impact upon people of various decisions and, of course, upon people who have more than one protected characteristic as well. So, those types of impact assessments are really helpful in terms of helping us understand the impact of decisions.

But, then, in terms of local government, the things that they asked us to look at, and we were pleased to do so, included the point about moving grants into the revenue support grant, either for a time-limited period or permanently. So, that's something that we are actively looking at at the moment. We're looking at all of our different grants and exploring what might be possible. That's an ongoing discussion, as I said, with the WLGA and with treasurers across Wales.

Another thing that they asked us to look at was the impact of regulatory burdens. So, obviously, this is a programme for government commitment, that we would look at the administrative burdens on local authorities, and that's a piece of work that, again, is actively under way with local authorities. But I think some of them had a particular concern about some of the regulatory systems, so we are looking at some of those specific concerns that they had as well, because we are really open to having all of these discussions with local authorities to try and ensure that we treat them with trust to get on with the jobs that they are required to do.

And then, on the point about re-profiling or looking again at some of our commitments, again, this is something that we are exploring with local government. I think that there are different views on some of these things. For example, the 20 mph zones, clearly, that's a programme for government commitment. I know there are strong views out there about that particular commitment. But we are engaging openly in all of these discussions with local government. 

The resource for core public health promotion sits with local health boards. Local authorities have responsibility for other areas of public health, such as health protection and environmental public health. Local authorities work closely with partners, including local health boards, on some areas of health promotion, such as the national exercise referral scheme.

Ie, diolch ichi am yr ateb. Wrth gwrs, mi wnaeth y Gweinidog iechyd bwyntio bys ychydig ar y cyhoedd ynglŷn â chyfrifoldeb y cyhoedd i fod yn fwy gofalus am eu hiechyd ac i wneud mwy o ran ymarfer corff ac i fwyta'n iachach ac yn y blaen. Roeddwn i'n teimlo bod hynny efallai—bod pwyntio bys at y cyhoedd ynglŷn â thrafferthion yr NHS braidd yn hallt, ond dwi'n deall y pwynt yr oedd hi'n ei wneud. Ond, wrth gwrs, dyw'r Llywodraeth ei hunan ddim yn helpu yn hynny o beth, oherwydd rŷn ni wedi sôn am y toriadau y mae awdurdodau lleol yn eu hwynebu, wrth gwrs—mae canolfannau hamdden yn cau, mae rhaglenni iechyd cyhoeddus yn cael eu torri. Felly, ydych chi'n cytuno â fi bod yna wrth-ddweud, bod yna contradiction mawr yn fan hyn, lle ar un llaw mae'r Llywodraeth yn dweud, 'Gwnewch fwy i fyw yn iach', ac, ar y llaw arall, mae diffyg ariannu o gyfeiriad y Llywodraeth yn golygu bod y canolfannau hamdden, bod y rhaglenni iechyd cyhoeddus, bod y gefnogaeth sydd yna i helpu pobl i wneud hynny yn cael eu torri?

Well, first of all, I would just reassure you that we are acutely aware of and equally concerned about the pressures that the current energy crisis and the cost-of-living crisis are having on the sport and leisure sector. Of course, the provisional local government settlement means that some local authorities have now reversed their plans to close some of their facilities, which I think is really important, demonstrating that they're prioritising those facilities with the additional funding that we've been able to provide. I know, for example, that there are areas such as swimming pools, where authorities and their swimming pool operators are concerned because they haven't been offered protection under the UK Government's new energy bills discount scheme, so we're supporting those efforts for those kinds of facilities to be categorised as intensive energy users. It's also worth recognising as well that as part of their capital funding investments, Sport Wales is looking into ways in which they can support the sector regarding green energy, and they've made links with the Welsh Government's energy service to discuss the practicalities there. So, there is obviously a financial outlook that is very challenging at the moment, but I know that authorities are trying to prioritise these non-statutory services and we've got several questions on those this afternoon as well, as part of their response to the cost-of-living crisis, and to support people.

Given that the over-65 population is likely to significantly increase over the next five years, it is essential that our local authorities receive adequate funding to support our older population, and we know that our social care in Wales is in a mess. We've heard the concerns about the hypothecation and how money is afforded to local authorities. We've heard our colleague Llyr Gruffydd outline the responsibilities that have fallen on local authorities as a result of some bad legislation going from here, and then being picked up by local authorities.

The World Health Organization describes age-friendly communities as being places in which older people, communities, policies, services, settings and structures work together in partnership to support and enable us all to age well. In April 2022, the Welsh Government announced that £1.1 million was being made available to local authorities to support their work to become age friendly, and to ensure older people are involved in the design and planning of local services. This is something I've worked on with the Older People's Commissioner for Wales, and she has emphasised the need for such investment to continue. Minister, what progress has the £1.1 million investment achieved during the current financial year, and is it your intention, and indeed that of the Deputy Minister for Social Services, to continue to invest in creating age-friendly communities in 2023-24? Diolch.

I'm grateful for that question and I've also had a really good meeting with the older people's commissioner, who talked very passionately about the potential for age-friendly communities. I can confirm that, for 2023-24, the Welsh Government via the social care reform fund will provide a grant of £50,000 to each local authority, so that they are able to appoint a lead officer to support their working towards becoming part of the WHO network of age-friendly communities and cities. I know that the Deputy Minister would be more than happy to provide more detailed information about the activities that are taking place on a local basis.

Climate change is a cross-government priority and I work closely with the Minister for Climate Change and with my other Cabinet colleagues to support delivery of Net Zero Wales, and to support local authorities in delivering their commitments.

Thank you, Minister, for that answer and we've had many discussions in this Chamber about making sure there's enough capital to decarbonise, for local government to decarbonise and invest in their green projects. But it's not all about money, either. There is also a need to make sure that there is sufficient human capital with the right skills and knowledge that they need to fulfil those roles, and I know that the Welsh Local Government Association, in their evidence on the Government's draft budget, have shared their concerns about the shortage of staff with green skills, as well as the difficulties experienced by public bodies in retaining staff with the required skills due to wage differentials with the private sector.

I'm just wondering, Minister, what discussions you've had with local government colleagues about developing and funding a recruitment, retention and upskilling strategy, so that staff have the required knowledge and skills in green issues. And what consideration have you given to, perhaps, enhancing the role of corporate joint committees, so that pooled budgets and pooled efforts can achieve some of these commitments?

I'm very grateful for that question this afternoon, and I'm really pleased with the work that the decarbonisation panel for Wales is undertaking in terms of ensuring that all local authorities have plans in place in order to help move them towards that goal of net zero in the public sector by 2030.

I think one of the areas where we need to put a great deal of focus, of course, is on procurement, because over 60 per cent of councils' emissions arise through the procurement of goods and services. I mention that because that's one of the areas where the Welsh Government is investing in skills for that particular sector. So, we've been investing in the professional qualifications, and supporting people to achieve those professional qualifications within the public sector, so that they have that skills base and the knowledge that they need, but particularly so with a focus now on decarbonisation. Just yesterday, I had the opportunity to meet the individuals through Curshaw who were driving forward our alpha phase on the centre for excellence for procurement. That was a really interesting meeting, talking to them about what they'd heard from talking to procurement professionals within the public sector, and also, particularly, in local government. I think skills and recognition are part of that, a concern that there must be that continuous opportunity to develop those skills within the very modern context and within the context of that journey towards net zero by 2030. So, that is a field of work where there's a lot of work going on at the moment, but particularly with that eye on procurement.

Of course, the best way to achieve this, as we all know, on every side of the Chamber, would be to go back to the old eight counties where you've got local government with sufficient capacity and clout to be able to deliver those schemes. You know that, they all know that, but there we go. I won't go after it this afternoon, everybody will be pleased to hear. But what I would like to—[Interruption.]

What I would like to challenge the Minister on is this: local government can act as a catalyst within its particular area to enable far more community-based renewable energy schemes. We do see that in some places, but we don't see anything like the number and the quantity that we require in order to deliver on our net-zero ambitions, but also to address some of the social issues that we debated in an earlier question. So, what can the Welsh Government do, Minister, to bring local government together to ensure that local government has the tools—the financial tools as well as the expertise that Peter Fox described—in order to provide local communities with the means to deliver renewable schemes that will address all the issues that we've been debating earlier?

I agree that local authorities have an important role and an important potential in that particular space, which is why I know that the Minister for Climate Change is engaging with them in respect of the development of the Unnos work, and I hope that she'll be making more information available to colleagues on the development of that work before too long. So, perhaps that would be an opportunity to explore that in greater detail.

I won't be tempted to bite either on the point that you made about the formulations of local government, and I realise that I neglected also to respond to the finance spokesperson's point on CJCs, but there'll be other opportunities.

I meet regularly with all local authority leaders to discuss key issues that affect us all, including the current financial challenges. It's the responsibility of each local authority to determine how they deliver their non-statutory services, based on local priorities.

Diolch yn fawr iawn am hwnna, a dŷch chi'n rhoi'r cyfrifoldeb ar awdurdodau lleol, wrth gwrs, ond chi sy'n gwneud y toriadau. Pa gyngor, felly, sydd gennych chi i awdurdodau sydd rŵan yn gorfod penderfynu rhwng cau canolfannau dydd i'r henoed, torri gwasanaethau datblygu'r economi, cau canolfannau hamdden a llyfrgelloedd, lleihau trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus, gwneud llai i ddelio â'r argyfwng hinsawdd, peidio â gwario ar hybu'r iaith Gymraeg a llu o bethau eraill hanfodol mae llywodraeth leol yn eu gwneud ar ran pobl Cymru? Sut mae cynghorau i fod i ddewis rhwng y pethau annerbyniol yma, a pha gyngor sydd gan y Gweinidog i bobl Cymru fydd ddim yn derbyn y gwasanaethau hanfodol yma o hyn allan?

I'll make the point again that the Welsh Government has provided the absolute best possible settlement to local government, and I know that was recognised by local government leaders and members of local government across Wales. As I've mentioned, we're providing revenue funding of over £5.1 billion and over £1 billion of specific grants to local authorities next year, and that's a rise of 7.9 per cent. Now, that's a significant rise in the context that we're facing, with our own budget reducing in its value over the course of this Senedd term, and as I've mentioned previously this afternoon, we allocated local government in excess of the funding that we received in consequential funding from the UK Government as a result of the autumn statement, and that has come at a cost to colleagues, who have had to divert funding away from treasured programmes in their own portfolios. So, I would say that we've done the absolute best that we could for local government. We're scrutinising the budget at the moment. What I'm not hearing from colleagues on other benches are examples of areas where they would have funding diverted away from in order to provide additional funding to local government or to other priorities that they might have. But I look forward to those ideas coming forward.

Building on our previous budget, the 2023-24 draft budget continues to focus on preventing harm to the most disadvantaged. Alongside the £165 million to protect our NHS, actions include protecting the £90 million funding for free school meals, investing a further £10 million in homelessness prevention and providing £2.2 million for our basic income pilot.

Diolch am yr ymateb yna, ond yr un bregeth eto gen i, mae gen i ofn. Mae angen gwneud llawer, llawer mwy ar yr ataliol os ydyn ni am wneud Cymru yn genedl fwy iach, a hynny reit ar draws y Llywodraeth. Yn Ynys Môn mae yna bryderon go iawn am ddyfodol y cynllun atgyfeirio cleifion i wneud ymarfer corff, neu NERS, oherwydd diffyg buddsoddiad. Rŵan, £145,530 mae'r cyngor sir wedi'u derbyn eleni i ariannu NERS; yr un swm ag y sydd wedi'i dderbyn ers 2015. Mae'r cyngor sir wedi ysgrifennu at y Gweinidog iechyd am hyn. Mae ganddyn nhw rhestr aros o bobl ond diffyg adnoddau, ac mae'n rhaid i ni wneud mwy o'r math yma o beth os ydyn ni'n wirioneddol am ffocysu ar fesurau ataliol.

Dwi hefyd wedi bod yn siarad â'r Nifty Sixties yng Nghaergybi, corff sydd eisiau ymestyn ei waith ar draws yr ynys i roi gwell iechyd i bobl hŷn. Mae angen iddyn nhw allu cael pobl wedi'u cyfeirio atyn nhw. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ymrwymo i drafod â'r Gweinidog iechyd sut i gynyddu'r swm yma? Oherwydd oni bai bod y buddsoddiad byrdymor yma, cymharol fach, yn cael ei wneud, yna mi fydd y pwysau'n mynd yn fwy ac yn fwy yn y hirdymor ar y gyllideb gyfan.

I will commit to reflecting the concerns that you raised this afternoon to the Minister for Health and Social Services. Obviously, this is a matter for her to decide within the confines of the MEG that she has, but I will be more than happy to make her aware of the contribution this afternoon.

Two hundred and sixty million pounds has been committed to implement the universal free school meal provision programme over the next three years. I anticipate that this funding will be sufficient for the majority of local authorities, but have committed that any additional requirements will be assessed on a case-by-case basis.

Thank you very much for that reply, which is extremely useful to clarify that. I just wondered if I could probe you on what financial assessment you may have done on the different models that local authorities are using, as the rise in food prices is far higher than the 1.65 uplift local authority budgets are getting in total, and there's also a world shortage of chefs, not just in schools, but in restaurants and cafes across the UK.

There seem to be three main models of delivery. Ynys Môn, maybe among others, have outsourced their catering provision to private contractors. Most local authorities rely on in-house caterers and cooking our expanding primary school meal service in school kitchens, which often involves capital to refurbish kitchens that are no longer fit for purpose for our expanding meal service. The third model, in Flintshire, is exploring advanced discussions with a social enterprise about a third option, of cooking the main meal centrally, sometimes known as cook-chill, with final preparation of food that doesn't need to be cooked, like fruit and salad, done in individual schools, prepared by the kitchen assistants who are going to dish out the meals anyway. How much of this presupposes the individual kitchen model, and how much of it is looking at the cost of having meals prepared centrally, at least while we have such a crisis in the provision of chefs?

Thank you very much for that question. I can say that Welsh Treasury officials are part of the working group that has been established to take forward the review of the unit rate. Obviously, it's not straightforward, and they will be looking at the impacts of those different models in terms of agreeing the rate. At the moment, the current free school meal unit rate across local authorities is being looked at alongside the evidence of the rising costs and the expectation that we're putting on local authorities in respect of sourcing local ingredients. Obviously, they're exploring the sustainability of the offer. I'm sure that part of that work will include exploring the different models of delivery, looking to see which delivers best value for money, and looking to see which delivers on those wider socioeconomic and environmental goals that we have. Perhaps I'll ask the education Minister to provide a letter to the Member with more detail on that. 

Ac yn olaf, cwestiwn 8—Heledd Fychan. 

I meet regularly with all local authorities to discuss key issues that affect us all, including the current financial challenges. It is the responsibility of each local authority to determine how they deliver their non-statutory services based on local priorities.

Thank you, Minister. I understand that it is a matter for them to prioritise, but as we've heard from a number of Members, there is concern about that non-statutory. We are seeing budget consultations currently in my region where you have questions around, 'Do you want a museum or a library, or do you want social care?' Of course people are going to choose those services, but it also discredits the important and valuable role of both libraries and museums. We're seeing the Museum of Cardiff, formerly known as Cardiff Story Museum, under threat. We are thinking also about the economic benefit of such institutions. So, please can I ask—? I know it's a matter for local authorities, but surely it's a matter of national concern if we want to deliver on the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, if we want to go and ensure that people have the benefits from culture and sport, which we know in terms of health and well-being are so, so valuable in order to protect our NHS. What is the role of Government other than saying it is a matter for local authorities? Surely there is a role in terms of non-statutory as well if we are to deliver on the future generations Act.

The Welsh Government's culture division does support the delivery of local cultural services, including museums, which are non-statutory services, as you say. Funding is available to enable museums to meet and maintain the museum accreditation, including providing access to the annual capital transformation grant scheme. The culture division also provides a programme of training and workforce development for museum, archive and library staff, and also supports services with advice and funding to enable them to engage with and deliver on our priorities, such as the anti-racist Wales action plan. So, there are other sources of funding available through the culture department. 

Of course, local authorities do have a responsibility to provide a comprehensive and efficient library service that is open to all, and that is set in legislation under the provisions of the Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964. Obviously, local authorities will be mindful of that when setting their budget. Of course, we monitor the provision of local library services through the Welsh public library standards, and we support the development of library provision through initiatives such as our national digital library service.

I can also say that the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport and Chief Whip has discussed the specific examples with local authorities where there have been proposals relating to cultural offers in the budget consultations, and officials have also liaised with staff in those institutions to provide relevant advice. I know that the Deputy Minister is taking an active interest in proposals that fall within her portfolio. 

Diolch i'r Gweinidog.

Yr eitem nesaf, felly, fydd y cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog materion gwledig a'r gogledd, ac mae'r cwestiwn cyntaf gan Altaf Hussain.

Our nature network programme is funding projects that will support pollinators, including the Wildlife Trust of South and West Wales healthy and resilient grasslands project, which aims to create a network of high-quality grasslands across 11 protected sites. This builds on our action plan for pollinators and the Bee Friendly scheme.

Thank you, Minister. Without bees and other pollinators, we would starve. And if we are to avoid the fate of farmers in the US, who have to rely upon bees being transported by lorries over large distances, we have to ensure bee-friendly corridors across all of Wales. Next week I'll be planting a blossom tree as part of the National Trust's blossom project. Minister, will you encourage farmers to plant blossom trees, and will you urge gardeners across the nation to plant blossom trees and wildflowers to provide corridors for our vital pollinators? Thank you.

Thank you. You're quite right; bee health is absolutely essential for our existence. It's very good to hear about the action that you're taking. As you know, the Welsh Government is giving a free tree to everyone right across Wales, so that's one way we're encouraging people to plant more trees. Certainly, we've worked with local authorities about planting wildflowers on verges and roundabouts; I've seen some very good examples up in north Wales in relation to that. But I think if we can all do just a little bit, that will help in the future.

A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am ymdrechion i frwydro yn erbyn lledaeniad clefydau mewn da byw—hynny yw, livestock—yng Nghanolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru?

Cyn i'r Gweinidog ateb, does dim angen cyfieithu 'da byw'. Rŷn ni i gyd yn ymwybodol o beth yw'r ystyr. Sticiwch at y cwestiwn fel mae e wedi cael ei gyflwyno. Y Gweinidog i ymateb.

Control of endemic and exotic diseases in livestock in Wales is central to our animal health and welfare framework for 2014 to 2024. We have robust surveillance, control strategies and ongoing animal disease eradication programmes and projects in place to control and prevent their spread, in collaboration with keepers and vets. Biosecurity, of course, is of the utmost importance.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Fel ŷn ni i gyd yn gwybod, mae'r clafr, sef sheep scab, yn bryder mawr i ffermwyr defaid yng Nghymru, ac mae'r clefyd yn cael effaith sylweddol iawn ar iechyd a lles anifeiliaid. Ar draws y Deyrnas Gyfunol, mae'n cyfrannu at golledion o ryw £8 miliwn yn y sector bob blwyddyn. Fel ŷch chi eisoes wedi esbonio, mae'r Llywodraeth wedi ymrwymo i gael gwared ar y clafr yng Nghymru, a dwi'n croesawu'n arbennig y cynllun sydd wedi cael ei wneud gyda Choleg Sir Gâr i fynd i'r afael â'r clefyd hwn.

Fodd bynnag, yn debyg iawn i nifer o ffermwyr ledled Cymru, ces i fy nychryn gan y ffioedd arfaethedig sydd wedi cael eu nodi fel rhan o'r ymgynghoriad diweddar gyda Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru, a'r swm ar gyfer gwaredu dip defaid yn codi rhyw 10 gwaith mwy na'r swm presennol, i gyfanswm o ryw £3,700. Mae'n debyg bod ychydig iawn o esboniad wedi cael ei roi am pam mae hyn wedi digwydd. Felly, ydy'r Gweinidog yn rhannu fy mhryder i, a'r sector, y gallai cyflwyno'r math hwn o ffioedd afresymol o uchel yn ystod argyfwng costau byw gael goblygiadau difrifol ar ymdrechion y Llywodraeth i waredu'r clafr yng Nghymru?

Thank you. As you pointed out, sheep scab is a disease that we've had a particular focus on. We've provided, for the last couple of years, free year-round sheep scab skin-scrape testing through our Carmarthen veterinary investigation centre for our Welsh flocks, and we've just brought forward a three-year contract worth £4.5 million for the all-Wales sheep scab eradication programme.

You mention the ongoing Natural Resources Wales consultation regarding their regulatory fees and charges for the next financial year. What that review intends is to ensure that NRW do achieve full cost recovery, with some of the current charges not having been reviewed for a number of years. But I appreciate what you're saying, and it is a particularly challenging time for everyone, and of course for our farmers too. NRW do expect the increased cost of licences to impact on a very small number of farms in Wales, because obviously spent sheep dip needs to be disposed of in a particularly environmentally friendly way because of the chemicals it contains. There is a push for—you know yourself—the mobile units that go around farms as well. However, I think with some of the figures that we've seen, I can quite understand why that has brought forward some fears with our farmers. I am due to meet the Minister for Climate Change, who obviously has responsibility for NRW, to discuss this. I have been told that NRW have been talking to stakeholders—and that, of course, includes our farmers—around this. I was asked was it for NRW to make a profit. Well, it isn't; it's about that full cost recovery. But it is really important that we do go ahead with our sheep scab eradication project, and I wouldn't want anything to divert attention from that.

Minister, I share the concerns of my colleague Cefin Campbell around this, and obviously the rising costs for the disposal of sheep dip. I do recognise your comments about sheep dip being disposed of in a safe and environmentally friendly way. Your sheep scab eradication policy includes sheep dipping as a way of eradicating sheep scab. It has proven to be the best way of getting rid of the disease. Have you had conversations with the chief vet around these increasing charges around any potential impact this is going to have on the Welsh Government's sheep scab eradication strategy?

Thank you. Yes, I've had conversations. You'll be aware that we've got an interim chief veterinary officer at the moment, and I've had several conversations with him around this. He's obviously had conversations, and the fact that, as I mentioned, NRW do expect the increased costs to impact on a relatively small number of farms has come out of those discussions. It is right that it's only one of the ways, as you say, to dispose of spent sheep dip, but if it is the way that's most effective, then you would hope that that would be the one that farmers would use, because it is highly toxic to our aquatic plants, for instance, and animals, and it's really important that it is disposed of in a correct way. So, as I say, I will be meeting with the Minister for Climate Change, because NRW will obviously put their proposals to her at the end of the consultation.

Cwestiynau gan lefarwyr y pleidiau nawr. Llefarydd y Ceidwadwyr, Samuel Kurtz.

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, in September 2021, you announced that the basic payment scheme and Glastir funding for advanced, common and organic would continue until December of this year, 2023. Rightly, you've always stressed that Welsh farmers won't face a funding cliff edge ahead of the new sustainable farming scheme in 2025. The Welsh Government currently has over 5,500 Glastir-based area contracts, most of which have been involved in this subsidy arrangement for a number of years, with their business models reflecting that involvement. So, given that you've already extended the Glastir programme once, what consideration have you given to extending it once more so that farmers have certainty ahead of the SFS transition in 2025?

That is something that we're looking at over the next couple of months, because, as you say, I have announced that it's extended until December 2023, and then we'll obviously have 2024, and I do hope then that we'll be able to transition to the sustainable farming scheme in 2025.

Thank you. I know that the farmers in Wales who are signed up to the Glastir scheme will welcome that call.

During lockdown, we saw the rise of the farmer influencer on social media platforms. With a new ITV Wales series, Born to Farm, and the presence of TikTok star Farmer Will—I'm sure you all know him—in the Love Island villa, farming and farmers are being seen in a new and more positive light, attracting a new audience and maybe even new entrants into the industry. If farming in Wales is to survive, it will always need these new entrants, and one of the best routes into farming is through the young farmers club. I know that first-hand as a former member. There's a few former members in this very Chamber. Wales YFC now only receives Government funding via the Welsh language grant, having missed out on funding from the Welsh Government's national voluntary youth organisations grant. Given the role that the young farmers movement plays in educating young people about the agricultural industry and the environment, not to mention the host of other skills learnt, will the Minister look at other ways her department can support financially Wales YFC, so that the charity can continue its good work in Wales?

Yes, I'd be very happy to. I think the young farmers is a very, very impressive organisation. It's very clear from just looking around this Chamber that the skills it teaches its members are transferable life skills, if you like. So, I'll be certainly very happy to look at it, but that comes with a health warning, because there is very little spare money around. But I'll be certainly very happy to look at any requests that should come forward.

Excellent. I'll pass that information on to the new chief executive of Wales YFC, who starts very shortly.

But if we are to bring new entrants into the industry, Minister, then we must ensure that safety and welfare is enshrined within the sector's work. Statistics from the Health and Safety Executive show that agriculture, with forestry and fishing, has the highest rate of self-reported non-fatal workplace injuries, with 92 per cent of farmers under the age of 40 suggesting that poor mental health is the biggest hidden problem facing farmers today. Sadly, it's not just injuries that occur; the community of Carreglefn in Ynys Môn was rocked following the death of 26-year-old Macauley Owen following an on-farm incident in January this year. How is the Welsh Government working with not just the stakeholders but with the farmers on the ground, feeding the nation, to improve the health and safety within this industry?

Thank you. I think, unfortunately, we've seen too many farmers' deaths over the past few months. And it's not just about mental health and well-being, it's about safety on the farm as well. And I was very pleased to launch a specific leaflet aimed at schools at the Royal Welsh Agricultural Show, back in November. But in relation specifically to your question around mental health and well-being, improving mental health and well-being, right across Government, is a priority for us—for me, for our farmers, it absolutely is. Because I know that they face a great deal of uncertainty, which can only add to the issues around mental health, wellness, and obviously well-being as well. You'll be aware that we support several important activities to aid mental health in our rural communities. We've got the farming support group. I meet with the farming charities on a regular basis, and, every time I meet them, the number of people who've contacted them increases.

Certainly, we saw a real peak during COVID, and, unfortunately, it hasn't gone down over the past year or so. I think the work of the farming charities is more important than ever in these very uncertain times—it really is vital. And I think it's good that you've raised this in the Chamber, because it's really vital that people know where to go for help. You'll be aware of FarmWell Wales, which is available to farmers throughout Wales. That information hub is there for business questions, and also for their own personal questions as well, to see what resilience can be built up, both in their business and their own well-being as well. And I think, to date, we've sent out a hard copy directory of FarmWell Wales to about 16,500—so, probably the majority—of farm businesses in Wales. And it does really provide the most up-to-date information for our farmers.

Llefarydd Plaid Cymru, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Diolch, Llywydd. Mae gan y Llywodraeth dargedau plannu coed uchelgeisiol, sy'n cael eu hadlewyrchu yn y Bil Amaeth newydd. Mae'r Dirprwy Weinidog dros yr amgylchedd wedi bod yn llafar yn sôn am fuddiannau posib economaidd plannu coed i ffermydd a chymunedau Cymru. Ond mae'r gwaith o blannu coed ar ffermydd eisoes yn mynd rhagddo ers blynyddoedd, drwy gynllun creu coetir Glastir. Felly, pa fudd cymdeithasol ac economaidd y mae'r Gweinidog yn ei deimlo y mae'r cynllun creu coetir Glastir wedi ei roi i ffermydd a chymunedau Cymru dros y blynyddoedd?

Thank you. Well, I believe that it's brought forward a great deal of benefits. Sam Kurtz asked in his first question around Glastir contracts and our plans for that, so I was very pleased to be able to announce that extension. I've just actually met with National Farmers Union Cymru this morning to discuss that. I know how much our farmers do involve themselves in Glastir—some of them have had Glastir scheme contracts since they first started, for many, many years. So, I think it is really important that we continue to do that. I work very closely with the Deputy Minister for Climate Change around tree planting, and you'll be aware of the tree-planting targets we have as a Government.

Diolch yn fawr iawn i'r Gweinidog am yr ateb. Felly, yn ôl y Gweinidog, mae yna lawer o fudd wedi bod i gymunedau Cymru, ac mi rydych chi am barhau efo hyn. Sut felly y mae'r Gweinidog yn esbonio bod bron i hanner y ceisiadau llwyddiannus o dan gynllun creu coetir yn ffenestr ymgeisio rhif 10 wedi mynd i ymgeiswyr a chyfeiriadau y tu allan i Gymru? Yn ôl ateb gefais i i gwestiwn ysgrifenedig yn ddiweddar, o'r 385 hectar o dir a dderbyniwyd ar gyfer y cynllun yn ffenestr 10, aeth 45 y cant i gwmnïau wedi eu cofrestru y tu allan i Gymru. Ydy'r Gweinidog yn credu bod hyn yn iawn, bod cwmnïau mawr o'r tu allan i Gymru yn manteisio ar raglenni Llywodraeth a phres trethdalwyr Cymru er mwyn 'offset-o' eu carbon ar draul ein cymunedau ni yma? Ac a ydyw'n gydnaws ag amcanion y Llywodraeth, fel dŷn ni wedi'i glywed, i ffermwyr a chymunedau gwledig Cymru?

Well, obviously, I would prefer all the money to go to Welsh farmers, but, obviously, the criteria is that trees have to be planted here in Wales. So, I'm afraid, at the moment, with that criteria, if the address is outside of Wales, they can apply for that money. 

I think the issue of large companies buying up farmland—which, I think, is what you're obviously getting at—is something that I am told is happening on a big scale. I haven't personally seen it myself; I know that there are pockets. And I also know that there have been companies who have been cold calling our farmers to see if they can sell their farm to them. It's not for me to tell farmers who to sell their land to, but it's certainly not something I want to encourage. 

Thank you. We've provided funding to improve management of common land through our support schemes, and are working collaboratively with stakeholders to ensure that commons are integral in future support. In the South Wales East region, our sustainable management scheme has funded three projects on common land, totalling over £1 million.

Diolch am yr ateb yna. 

I raise this matter as there have been problems occurring on common land within my region. The current relaxed model of ownership and accountability means that all it takes is a rogue landowner to expose the inherent flaws within the system. 

Without going into too much detail about a local case that springs to mind, there is a glaring example in my region of how a landowner can get away with a multitude of crimes against the environment without significant repercussions from the authorities. I recently met with Caerphilly County Borough Council, and they told me how they are frustrated by the current arrangements. There need to be clear lines of accountability, and swift enforcement action where needed, if we are to protect and preserve our precious common land for future generations to enjoy. Can this Government provide clear direction and guidance, so that bad practice is tackled robustly and deterred from happening again? And can the Welsh Government also provide direction, guidance and support for any remedial action that needs to happen?

Thank you. I'm probably very well aware of the case that you refer to; it's something that has been very prominent. Hefin David and I have met a few times over the past few years around issues in relation to common land.

As you referred to, common land is managed by a range of organisations through a collaborative approach. You mentioned local authorities. Obviously, enforcement and strategic support is provided from Natural Resources Wales, and, of course, the police. And, unfortunately, sometimes, I don't think it's as collaborative as it should be, but, certainly, as a Government, we work closely to make sure that any issues around the management of common land are addressed. As I say, we provide strategic support to those organisations who have the responsibility for the day-to-day running of our common land. 

We have provided significant funding to improve the management of common land. A huge amount of land in Wales is actually common land, and I mentioned, in my opening remarks to you, that the sustainable management scheme has funded three projects for over £1 million. As we bring forward the sustainable farming scheme, we have a specific working group that's looking at common land, because I think it is such an important part of our land here in Wales. And we've got a number of stakeholders who sit on that working group for us. And that is really to ensure that farmers on common land will be able to access the future support that they need. 

Minister, RWE Renewables has given notice that they intend to apply to the Welsh Government for planning permission in respect of a development of national significance. They wish to construct and operate a wind farm, a battery energy storage system and associated infrastructure on common land at—pardon my pronunciation—Pen March, Gelligaer. I've also been contacted by my constituents who are concerned by the development. If approved, they feel that it will damage small wetland areas that are home to rare plants, as well as birds and bats. Also, we already know—and I've spoken on this many times on the importance of wetlands, here in the Chamber, as they are important in relation to carbon storage. Wetlands are, in fact, some of the most effective carbon sinks on the planet—even more so than rain forests or coastal seagrass.

So, Minister, how will the Welsh Government, going forward, balance the environmental benefits of generating energy through wind power with the potential damage to the environment caused by this development on common land? Thank you. 

Thank you. Well, I am aware of the proposed Pen March wind farm on Merthyr common. I think it is really important to state, now, that the application is still in the preliminary stages, and obviously will need to be fully assessed to determine its potential impact. 

I have not had any specific discussions with the Minister for Climate Change regarding genetic modification. Use of technology is an important means by which we will reach net zero. Welsh Government actively funds a range of research. At the current time, we do not see an important role for GMO in carbon sequestration. 

Thank you, Minister. Whilst I acknowledge this Government's cautionary approach to genetic engineering, I believe that it is shortsighted to ignore the fact that this technology has the potential to solve many of the problems that we are currently facing. I also believe that there is considerable potential for the genetic modification of certain plants, that will not enter the food chain, to help Wales meet its climate change target.

There's been considerable scientific study into the genetic engineering of plants, which has shown that gene editing can be used in native tree species to allow them to grow faster, to become more drought-resistant, more tolerant to temperature extremes and become disease-resistant, and I believe that this would not only help with sequestration of carbon in Wales, particularly in carbon sinking, but also help the Welsh Government combat plant diseases, and speed up the growth of trees using the Welsh timber trade for construction. Moreover, it has been shown that microalgae cultivation uses CO2 from industrial settings, such as power stations and factories, and can provide an environmentally friendly approach to reducing CO2, and the use of strains that have been genetically modified by biomass productivity could provide enormous benefits to these. With this in mind, I would, therefore, like to know, Minister, what evidence would this Government need to see in order to allow the use of genetically modified plants that will not enter the food chain to be used in Wales for carbon sequestration? Thank you.  

Thank you. Well, you are quite right: we do have a precautionary principle, absolutely, at the heart of our policy in relation to genetic modification and gene editing, and, obviously, I don't think you were in the Chamber yesterday, but we had a debate on the LCM on the UK Government's Genetic Technology (Precision Breeding) Bill.

New genetic techniques are powerful tools, but that power must be used very responsibly, and I think that it's really important that, as law makers, we carefully consider the evidence for change, and the potential ramifications that any change could have, or would have. We need to understand the scientific basis and the risks and benefits for Wales, and, as I say, we do put significant funding into that sort of research. I think we also need to consider the public's view, the consumer choice and their view on that, and the ethics that are associated with these technologies. I think, only then can we really decide what role gene-edited plants could have in tackling the climate emergency. 

Thank you. Through our Transforming Towns regeneration programme, local authorities are encouraged to bring forward integrated green infrastructure solutions, as part of place-making plans for our towns. Green infrastructure projects across Gwent are enhancing the biodiversity of our town centres and improving the well-being of residents and visitors.

Thank you, Minister. Tory austerity is now a teenager; it's almost 13 years of age, and it continues to decimate local government budgets—this is despite the heroic efforts of Welsh Government. Caerphilly County Borough Council has just unveiled its draft budget proposals for 2023-24, along with the detail of how it plans to plug the projected £48 million gap in finances over the following two years. Minister, in Islwyn, urban green infrastructure, such as the beautiful Waunfawr park, sits at the heart of community life in Cross Keys. The park covers over 22 acres of land and comprises of a children's playground, rugby, football and cricket pitches, and it also includes a bowling green and tennis courts. When local governments must fund statutory services, what support and assurances can the Welsh Government give the communities of Islwyn that green urban infrastructure can be protected from Tory funding attacks? 

I think you raise a very important point, and certainly in the Minister for Finance and Local Government's questions, we heard lots of questions around different non-statutory functions and services that we value greatly, and I think you've just obviously given a very good example there.

I mentioned that we have several schemes. We've got the Transforming Towns placemaking scheme, we have our green infrastructure projects within that in your area, with significant—about £0.75 million—Welsh Government funding being awarded to four dedicated green infrastructure projects. I think it's really important that we continue to have those discussions with local government, because, at the risk of repeating myself, there is no more money. There is no money hidden away. So, I think those conversations need to be undertaken with local authorities.

I thank the Member for raising the question. I will remind her that local government is devolved to Wales and has been for 23 years. But, green infrastructure is of course an important tool to help communities to mitigate the effects of climate change, as well as to help us meet our climate change commitments. Access to green space is also obviously beneficial to people's well-being. However, it's important that we don't just enhance the accessibility and quality of existing urban green infrastructure, but increase the coverage as well. As such, Minister, what consideration have you and your Cabinet colleagues given to encouraging local authorities to better map out existing green spaces and to assess whether communities have access to enough of the right kinds of green infrastructure in the right places? Using such data, how are you working with councils to identify suitable areas of land for new green infrastructure projects and then providing additional financial support and guidance to help them get these projects off the ground? Thank you.

You raise a really important point. It is important that there is integration in a town centre or a specific area with other investments in that particular town centre or that particular area. I think only that way will you achieve better outcomes. We provide a great deal of support for developments that form part of wider placemaking plans and green infrastructure projects, so those conversations will go on. I haven't had any specific—this has only recently come back into my portfolio—discussions with local authorities, but I know my officials do work closely to ensure that the cumulative impact, if you like, of a variety of schemes shows good integration.

I'm aware of the discrete catfish population present in the Brickfield pond in Rhyl. NRW have been working with Brickfield angling club, who have been actively removing catfish. They are aware it is an offence to return any catfish caught to the water or move them to any other water.

Thank you for that answer, Minister. Do not worry, I'm pleased to inform you that I won't be asking about online dating apps today. I've been contacted by constituents in the Rhyl area who are concerned about the amount of catfish in local waters, particularly around the Brickfield pond, as you mentioned, Minister, off Cefndy Road in Rhyl, and the Rivers Clwyd and Dee. To provide a brief background, large amounts of catfish were introduced to local waters in the 1990s and 2000s for the purpose of trophy catches, so that people could pose with their successful catch for photos and then return them to the water. But, in reality, and as the years have gone on, catfish numbers have increased and they are dangerous aquatic predators with teeth that kill many other species and birds in the water and are vastly reducing small fish populations in Denbighshire waters. 

In a recent meeting with NRW, they told me that culling all of the fish in the Brickfield pond and Rivers Dee and Clwyd, or using nets to catch them, would be unethical and using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, which I quite agree with. So, how do we solve this problem, Minister, practically, and what action can the Welsh Government take to rectify this problem and ensure the long-term sustainability of small fish in local waters? Thank you.

As you were told by NRW, if we eradicated all the catfish in that pond, you wouldn't be able to do that without eradicating all the other fish. So, I absolutely understand the information you were given from NRW. My understanding is that Brickfield pond is part of a former quarry and is a self-contained water body. It's not connected to any other sources of freshwater, so that means it's not possible for the catfish to spread to other areas, reducing wider risk.

Diolch. There are a number of monitoring and reporting provisions contained in the Agriculture (Wales) Bill designed to measure success. Alongside an annual finance report, Welsh Ministers will be required to report on the impact of the support provided against the sustainable land management objectives.

Ie, un peth sydd ddim ymhlyg yn yr hyn rŷch chi wedi cyfeirio ato fe fanna wrth gwrs yw mai un mesur pwysig, yn ôl llawer o'r dystiolaeth a dderbyniwyd gan Bwyllgor yr Economi, Masnach a Materion Gwledig sydd wedi bod yn craffu ar y Bil yma, yw i ba raddau y mae'r Bil yn helpu i amddiffyn ffermydd teuluol. Pan fo gyda chi rwydwaith o ffermydd teuluol, ŷch chi'n llwyddo i wrthsefyll y symudiad tuag at ffermio ar sgêl fwy—mae'n dueddol o fod yn ffermio mwy dwys—felly, mae hynny'n well i'r amgylchedd. Rŷch chi'n fwy tebygol o gadw'r bunt yn lleol drwy ffermydd teuluol. Mae e hefyd, wrth gwrs, yn fesur pwysig o safbwynt hyfywedd y Gymraeg yn yr ardaloedd gwledig hynny. Ydych chi, felly, yn cytuno bod nifer y ffermydd yng Nghymru yn faromedr pwysig ac y byddai gweld gostyngiad yn y nifer hynny yn arwydd o fethiant?

Everything I do is to protect family farms. You're quite right, we have a significant number of family farms. They're very, very important to our rural communities and, of course, they protect the Welsh language. The agricultural sector uses the Welsh language more than any other sector here in Wales. Absolutely everything we do is under that focus, if you like, going forward. And so, we’re looking at this as we bring forward the design scheme for a sustainable farming scheme, and we will have an impact report. That will be required to be completed periodically to assess the impact of all support provided and that will, of course, include the family farm.

James Evans.

Diolch, Llywydd. I didn't think I had a question today. [Laughter.]

Well, if you didn't think you had a question, then you don't have a question.

No, that's fine. I've already been called once. I'm thinking of others.

Question 8 [OQ58959] has been withdrawn. Question 9 by Vikki Howells. She appears just as I call her name. So, the next question will be question 9 by Vikki Howells. Your microphone was closed for a bit longer than usual. Vikki Howells.

The Agriculture (Wales) Bill establishes four sustainable land management objectives as the legislative framework for future agricultural policy. The objectives are designed to be complementary, reflecting our approach to supporting the economic, environmental, social and cultural sustainability of the agricultural sector in Wales.

Thank you, Minister. As a Member of the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee, I visited the Agriculture Research Centre at Gelli Aur last year to find out more about their farm-nutrient partnership. What conclusions have the Welsh Government drawn from this project in terms of the ways in which slurry treatment can be used to support the agricultural sector, but also to protect the environment in Wales?

Thank you. I visited the Agriculture Research Centre at Gelli Aur twice myself to hear about the amazing work that's under way, and it was good to see so much progress had been made between my two visits. I very much welcome the research that's been undertaken there. I can see great promise to enable our farms to utilise the nutrients from manures much more efficiently. Slurry separation and the management of the separated nutrients really do provide an opportunity, I think, particularly in light of high fertiliser prices, which we've certainly seen over the last year or so, and that really ensures that valuable nutrients are able to be added to nutrient-deficient areas so that they can increase their resilience and reduce the reliance on manufactured fertilisers. The work being done on the nutrient management plans with the precision spreading of the separated materials I think will also help ensure the right nutrient application at the right time, and, of course, that's essential if we want to reduce the risk of pollution.

A team Wales approach is taken to protect threatened wildlife. On 10 January, my colleague the Minister for Climate Change announced measures to support a wide range of wildlife species, including many that are threatened. These measures include direct stewardship and enhancements to the habitats and ecosystems that support our wildlife.

Thank you. Trees provide numerous environmental, social and economic benefits, and tree planting is widely considered to be one of the most important ways to combat climate change and poor air quality. However, the decline in the curlew is strongly associated with increased amounts of woodland near breeding sites. Although the iconic curlew is our most pressing bird conservation priority, it will be extinct as a breeding population within a decade without intervention. However, woodland continues to be seen as a public good, even when it provides an ideal habitat for the apex predators whose predation of nests and chicks is a primary cause of curlew breeding failure. As the Welsh Government Minister responsible for the protection of management of wildlife, what specific action are you taking to ensure that the Welsh Government's target for woodland planting in Wales takes account of this, and that, although the snares of yesteryear are not acceptable, modern humane cable restraints are recognised as holding devices not killing devices, with a key ole to play amongst the range of urgent intervention measures needed to prevent imminent curlew extinction and to reverse biodiversity loss?

Thank you. You're quite right, the curlew is an iconic farmland and moorland bird. I am pleased that you continue to champion it. I was due to meet Curlew Wales and, unfortunately, I had to postpone the meeting. I can't remember quite why, but I will make sure that I reschedule that meeting, because I'm certainly very interested to hear what they have to say.

You're quite right about trees and, certainly, if we're going to meet our net-zero commitments, we have been told in very clear terms by the UK Committee for Climate Change we need to significantly increase our woodland planting targets.

You refer to humane cable restraints and, as you know, we're looking to ban snare and humane cable restraints in the Agriculture (Wales) Bill 2022, and that really is about preventing inhumane methods being used, and it doesn't prevent other more humane methods of control.

Diolch. I have regular engagement with the Minister for Climate Change on a range of portfolio issues. Regarding farmers improving energy efficiency, our sustainable farming scheme will offer future support to help farmers decarbonise and, currently, we offer farmers energy efficiency support through our small grants efficiency scheme, which opened two days ago.

Yn ddiweddar, mi ges i gyfle i ymweld â chanolfan newydd sbon ar safle hen ffatri yn nyffryn Nantlle yn fy etholaeth i. Canolfan neu hwb datgarboneiddio ydy Tŷ Gwyrddfai ym Mhenygroes, sy'n dod â nifer o bartneriaid ynghyd efo'r nod ganolog o wella effeithlonrwydd ynni cartrefi pobl nid yn unig yn Arfon, ond ar draws y gogledd a thu hwnt. Un agwedd bwysig o'r gwaith yma fydd arloesi efo dulliau newydd o wella'r stoc tai, ac mae Prifysgol Bangor yn rhan o'r gwaith yma. Dwi'n credu bod gan y gymuned amaethyddol gyfraniad pwysig i'w wneud i'r agenda yma, ac un enghraifft ydy defnyddio gwlân i inswleiddio cartrefi. Felly, beth mae'r Llywodraeth yn ei wneud i harneisio potensial arloesol y gymuned amaethol ar gyfer gwella effeithlonrwydd ynni yng Nghymru?

Thank you. You make a very important point about the role that our agriculture sector and our farmers can make in relation to energy efficiency. I met with the British Wool Council—it's probably 18 months ago now—where we discussed the use of Welsh wool, obviously, particularly from my point of view, in relation to insulation, for instance. They believe that there are more—probably 'worth while' is the wrong term—more efficient uses of British wool than just insulation, but I think what we need to look at is all the technology that's available, all the innovation that's available to help us with energy efficiency. I mentioned that we just open the window for the small grants efficiency scheme. I really want that scheme to be able to offer direct support to our farmers so that they can invest in new technology and equipment to really enhance the technical and financial and environmental performance of their business.

Thank you. The egg industry has been impacted by cost inflation rising through 2021 and latterly by avian influenza. These are common factors across the UK, with Welsh egg producers and packers integrated into UK-wide supply chains. We anticipate UK-level Government-industry discussion to consider means to bring stability to producer contracts.

Thank you for that response, Minister. I'm very pleased that you do recognise the pressures that are out there in the egg industry. As you will know, Wales is the biggest producer of free-range eggs in Europe, and that is something that means that this is a particularly important issue for Wales, perhaps more so than any other part of the United Kingdom. But those pressures on producers are becoming all the more acute. We've seen shortages of eggs in our supermarkets, with some supermarkets actually rationing them in recent months. And we've seen significant rises, of course, for consumers. In terms of the retail price, they've gone up by about £1 a dozen, and yet the producer costs have gone up by 40p a dozen, and, unfortunately, the increase in the payments by the supermarkets per dozen is just 25p. So, lots of egg producers are actually now facing losses as a result of those shifting prices. Can I ask you, Minister, will you convene a summit between the supermarkets and egg producers in order that we can get fair prices for our egg farmers here in Wales, in order to protect this industry for the future?

Thank you. I think you make a very important point, and I think it's really important to highlight that it's not just avian influenza that's impacting on our egg producers. There is a series of issues that have brought together a bit of a perfect storm. I think any such summit would need to be at a UK level, for the reasons I outlined in my original answer. I have written to Mark Spencer, the Minister for farming, fisheries and food, and we've got an inter-ministerial group on Monday, and certainly egg production will be on the agenda. If it's not, I'll bring it up under 'any other business'. He brought forward a round-table, which unfortunately other Ministers weren't invited to. My officials were there, so I'm not saying we weren't involved. But I think it would be good for Ministers to be able to meet with the egg supply chain, with producers, with retailers, with packers, with all the trade bodies, which is what he did with officials there. So, I have written to him, asking for an update. I only wrote on 15 December, so, obviously, with Christmas, I haven't had a response as yet. But I do think it does need a UK-wide—. I could certainly meet with the supermarkets, and I do meet with the supermarkets regularly, where we do have discussions, but I think if we're going to have a summit of the type I think you're referring to, it would be better to do that on a UK-wide level.

Thank you to the Minister. All tabled questions answered well within allocated time—it's making me think we should go back to 15 questions being allowed to be tabled, with that record. Thank you to the Minister.

Eitem 3 sydd nesaf, a'r cwestiwn amserol yw hwnnw. Mae'r cwestiwn i'w ofyn gan James Evans, and to be answered, i'w ateb, gan y Gweinidog addysg. James Evans.

I'll be meeting with teacher and head unions tomorrow, along with local authorities, who are the employers, to discuss the outcome of ballots and discuss next steps. I am committed to working with partners to secure a resolution to the dispute, and this tripartite meeting will help explore ways of addressing teachers' concerns.

I'd like to thank you for that answer, Minister. The Welsh Government do hold all the levers here to prevent the strikes, and it's time that the Welsh Government did take some responsibility for this, by, for example, not cutting the education budget in real terms and rising it in line with inflation. Under Welsh Labour, children in Wales are being left behind. Not only did they miss more school days than anyone else in the UK due to lockdowns, not only are they getting less money spent on them than their counterparts in England, but now they have to deal with these strikes and potentially missing more lesson time, when I'm sure, Minister, you should agree with me that it's better that our teachers are in the classroom, educating our young people for the future.

I do have a suggestion that perhaps the Minister goes back to his Cabinet colleagues and asks them to free up more hundreds of millions of pounds earmarked for vanity projects that aren't in his portfolio, like the expansion of this Senedd, the owning of Gilestone Farm, owning an airport that is losing money. And if the Government gets its priorities in order, I'm sure you, Minister, would have more money to spend on our teachers. So, Minister, given my suggestion, will you stop passing the buck, as you did on tv, and stop using the same old Welsh Government line of blaming Westminster? And what constructive options will you be taking to the table this week for preventing school closures, because this one is surely your responsibility?

Well, these are serious matters that deserve better than political knock-about in this Chamber. His mischaracterisation of the education system in Wales is consistent with that of his colleagues on those benches. Unlike the Conservative Government in Westminster, we are not responding to strikes by bringing forward draconian laws that undermine people's fundamental rights. In Wales, we believe, as a Welsh Government, that the best way to resolve disputes of this sort is through discussion, respectful discussion, with our partners, with goodwill and an in attempt to reach a constructive solution, and that is very much the spirit in which we will have the discussions with unions and local authorities in Wales. 

Diolch, Weinidog. Dwi'n falch iawn o glywed eich ymrwymiad o ran trafod yr wythnos yma. Yn amlwg, dydy hwn ddim yn sefyllfa hawdd i unrhyw un, dewis streicio, a gresyn ein bod ni wedi cyrraedd y pwynt hwn. Ond dydy hi ddim yn annisgwyl, chwaith, ein bod ni wedi cyrraedd y pwynt yma; mi wnaeth yr undebau'n glir nad oedd y cynnig gan y Llywodraeth yn mynd i fod yn dderbyniol. Felly, a fyddwch chi yn gallu ymrwymo i wneud cynnig gwell iddyn nhw? Oherwydd yn amlwg dydy hyn ddim jest ynglŷn ag athrawon ond y rheini sydd hefyd yn gweithio yn ein hysgolion o ran cefnogi ein hathrawon ni a gwneud gwaith pwysig dros ben, felly. Ac o ran eich ymrwymiad personol chi er mwyn trio sicrhau dydy ein disgyblion ni ddim yn colli allan ar addysg hollbwysig yn sgil COVID ac ati, pam ydyn ni wedi cyrraedd y pwynt yma, a beth fydd yn wahanol yn y trafodaethau hyn er mwyn rhoi'r gobaith hwnnw na fyddwn ni'n cyrraedd y sefyllfa o orfod gweld athrawon yn gorfod bod ar streic?

Wel, rwy'n credu bod pawb yn cytuno y dylai ein plant ni fod yn yr ysgol yn cael eu haddysg, ond does neb yn cymryd y penderfyniad yma i streicio ar chwarae bach. Mae pedair undeb gyda ni, a dwy wedi pleidleisio o blaid gweithredu, ond beth bynnag yw'r trothwy sydd gan yr undebau, rŷn ni'n parchu ac yn clywed y negeseuon rŷn ni'n eu cael wrth athrawon yn y pleidleisiau hynny. Dwi ddim yn mynd i drafod yn y Senedd heddiw beth fydd natur y trafodaethau rŷn ni'n bwriadu eu cael. Bydd y cynnig ac unrhyw drafodaethau ar gyfer setlo hyn yn cael eu gwneud yng nghyd-destun cyfarfodydd gyda'n partneriaid cymdeithasol, yn y ffordd rŷn ni wastad yn gweithredu, ac rwy'n gwybod bod yr Aelod yn derbyn ac yn cefnogi'r safbwynt hwnnw. Ond, fel rwyf wedi dweud, gwnawn ni bopeth o fewn y cyfyngiadau real sydd arnon ni fel Llywodraeth i gael y setliad gorau posib.

Diolch i'r Gweinidog. 

Dwi wedi cytuno i bwynt o drefn, ac, i gyflwyno'r pwynt o drefn yna, Heledd Fychan. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Gaf i ofyn ichi, os gwelwch yn dda, adolygu eich canllawiau o ran gweithio'n hybrid yn sgil sefyllfa anffodus a gododd yn y Pwyllgor Diwylliant, Cyfathrebu, y Gymraeg, Chwaraeon a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol y bore yma? Fe fu'n rhaid gohirio dechrau ar y gwaith pwysig o graffu ar y gyllideb ddrafft gan nad oedd y Dirprwy Weinidog, yn annisgwyl, yn bresennol yn yr ystafell bwyllgor, ond yn yr adeilad. Yn sgil eich cyfathrebiad diweddar, ein dealltwriaeth ni oedd bod disgwyl i bawb, yn Weinidogion ac aelodau'r pwyllgor, fod yn bresennol o ran y sesiynau craffu hyn, ac, yn bwysig, os ydyn ni yn yr adeilad, fod disgwyl i ni fod yn y Siambr hon. Ac roeddwn ni'n disgwyl bod hynny hefyd yn wir o ran pwyllgorau. Fel y Cadeirydd dros dro heddiw, mi ofynnais i'r swyddogion ofyn i'r Dirprwy Weinidog fynychu, gan ei bod yn yr adeilad, ond daeth yn amlwg, i osgoi oedi pellach, fod yn rhaid inni wedyn fynd ymlaen yn hybrid, ond mi gollwyd tri chwarter awr. Felly, i osgoi oedi o'r fath byth eto, mi fyddai canllawiau pellach yn fuddiol, os gwelwch yn dda. 

Alun Davies, ymhellach i'r pwynt yna o drefn. 

I'm grateful to the Presiding Officer for allowing me to contribute to this point of order. It was certainly unfortunate what happened this morning, and we accept that. However, the Deputy Minister herself was put into a difficult situation and I attach no blame to the Deputy Minister for the circumstances of what happened this morning. I think the lessons we need to learn in terms of Standing Orders, Presiding Officer, are to enable other committee members to take the chair when necessary and not simply when the Chair is absent. I think that would be a useful thing to do, to look at again, but also then to ensure that the Government is in a position to fully give evidence when it is required to do so. And the point I would make to Ministers—there's one Minister in the Chamber this afternoon—is that we took evidence subsequently from the education Minister, Jeremy Miles, and the evidence we received from Jeremy was first class, and one of the reasons for that was that he was in the room with us and he was able to provide a far greater explanation for his policies and his approach as a consequence of that. So, I attach no blame to the Deputy Minister for the circumstances this morning; it was outside of her control. But I hope that the lesson that Ministers will learn from this is, from their own point of view, they're better off here than there.

And the Deputy Minister herself is intending to, or wanting to, contribute to the point of order. Dawn Bowden.

Diolch, Llywydd. I just think perhaps a fuller explanation of the circumstances would help the Senedd, and I'm not necessarily opposing Heledd Fychan's point of order in terms of getting some clarity around this and the way that the committee scrutiny takes place, but, just to put on record what actually happened, the weather, as you know, was very, very bad this morning and I nearly never made it from Merthyr Tydfil. So, had that happened, I would have had to have joined remotely in any case, but I did come in to Tŷ Hywel. It took me somewhere in the region of an hour and a half or more to get from Merthyr Tydfil to Cardiff, so I only arrived in Tŷ Hywel literally just before the meeting was due to start, and it wasn't until I arrived, just before 9:30, that I was advised by my private office that none of my officials would be attending committee in person; they would all be joining online. I'd been completely unaware of that until that point, and, in those circumstances, I didn't feel it was reasonable for me to attend committee in person on my own, when I would be unable to have direct access to officials, as I'd be able to do if they were there in person. However, if I joined remotely, I would be able to communicate with them electronically if I needed to, and, on that basis, I advised the committee that I would join online to give my evidence.

It took the committee some 45 minutes of discussion to conclude that they were prepared to allow me to do that, so the only issue I would take on that is that the delay of 45 minutes was not of my making; I was ready to give evidence online at 9:30 as scheduled. I would have preferred to give my evidence in person, and I think the point that Alun Davies has made is a point well-made; I do believe that evidence sessions are better in person. The last time I gave evidence to the committee was in person, and I had officials with me in person as well. I'm unaware of what discussions took place between committee clerks and my officials before the meeting that agreed to their online participation, but I was unaware of that, as I thought that the entire meeting was being held in person. So, it was about ensuring that I had the appropriate official support in the appropriate way to be able to present my evidence effectively.

Thank you to the Deputy Minister. Unusually, I've allowed a point of order on a piece of committee business for this session. I've heard all the perspectives of the Members involved, and, as Members know, we're in a new way of working: this is uncharted territory to a certain extent. Guidance, as Heledd Fychan has said, has been issued to Members. We have new experience as of this morning. Regrettably, a committee was delayed by 45 minutes in its ministerial scrutiny. If it is the case that guidance needs to be strengthened as a result of this morning's experience and the experience of committees generally over the past weeks, then I'll ask the Chairs' forum in its very next meeting to reflect on all of that and what has been shared with us from today's experience and to see whether there is a need to strengthen the guidance to all Members, including Ministers, on attendance in committee virtually or in person. So, yes, we'll move on to Plenary business now. Thank you to all concerned for sharing your views on that.

Datganiadau 90 eiliad sydd nesaf. Mae'r unig ddatganiad heddiw gan Sioned Williams.

Diolch, Llywydd. This month marks 200 years since the birth of Alfred Russel Wallace, a naturalist whose ideas helped change the world. Born near Usk, he spent much of his early life in England and moved back to Wales to work as a surveyor in Neath. During his spare time, he furthered his scientific pursuits, and, in his autobiography, he referred to the impact his time in Neath had on him, developing his interest in the natural world, saying,

'I cannot call to mind a single valley that in the same extent of country comprises so much beautiful and picturesque scenery, and so many interesting special features, as the Vale of Neath.'

Following his time in Neath, he travelled the world, and upon his return published some of his findings. He wrote to one of his heroes, Charles Darwin, and they jointly published articles on their studies. A year later, and likely prompted by Wallace, Darwin would publish On the Origin of Species. Though his work on evolution is what many remember him for, Wallace wrote on many other subjects, including workers' rights, women's suffrage, land ownership and poverty.

Today, he continues to be remembered and celebrated. The Alfred Russel Wallace trail in Neath Port Talbot includes many of the places he lived, visited or worked at during his time there, including places like Bryncoch farm, Neath abbey, the Vale of Neath Railway, Melincourt waterfall and Neath mechanics' institute. Recently, Theatr na nÓg, a Neath-based company, commemorated Alfred Russel Wallace by putting on special performances of their award-winning production of Geinor Styles's play You Should Ask Wallace. More than two centuries after his birth, Wallace is rightfully regarded as one of the most influential thinkers who ever lived. Neath and all of Wales are rightfully proud of him.

Diolch.

Eitem 5 y prynhawn yma yw dadl ar adroddiad y Pwyllgor Newid Hinsawdd, yr Amgylchedd a Seilwaith, 'Dyfodol bysiau a threnau yng Nghymru'. Galwaf ar Gadeirydd y pwyllgor i wneud y cynnig. Llyr Gruffydd.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. Rwy'n falch iawn o allu agor y ddadl yma y prynhawn yma. Liciwn i ddechrau drwy ddiolch i’r holl randdeiliaid a’r holl aelodau o’r cyhoedd hefyd sydd wedi cyfrannu at waith y pwyllgor. Dwi'n falch hefyd, wrth gwrs, fod y Gweinidog wedi derbyn ein holl argymhellion ac eithrio un, ond efallai y down ni at hynny nes ymlaen.

Mae dwy ran i'r adroddiad yma. Mae rhan 1 yn ymdrin â sesiwn graffu flynyddol y pwyllgor gyda Thrafnidiaeth Cymru, ac mae rhan 2 yn ymdrin â materion ehangach yn ymwneud ag adfer gwasanaethau bysiau a threnau yng Nghymru ar ôl pandemig COVID-19. Mae e, felly, yn adroddiad eang ei gwmpas, a bydd dim amser i wneud mwy na chyffwrdd â rhai o’r materion mwyaf pwysig wrth i fi agor y drafodaeth yma heddiw.

Yn gyntaf, felly, hoffwn i sôn am ein gwaith craffu ni yng nghyd-destun gwaith Trafnidiaeth Cymru. Roedd y pwyllgor yn pryderu am nifer o agweddau ar drefniadau llywodraethu Trafnidiaeth Cymru. Roedd hyn yn ymwneud yn bennaf â chyhoeddi cynlluniau busnes ac ariannol ac, o ganlyniad, yn ymwneud â thryloywder y sefydliad. I fod yn deg, roedd cyfnod y pandemig yn gyfnod anodd i Drafnidiaeth Cymru. Fe glywson ni fod cyllideb y sefydliad yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw yn amrywio’n arw a bron iawn yn newid o un wythnos i'r llall. Mae i’w gweld braidd yn annheg inni feirniadu’r sefydliad am beidio â chyhoeddi cynlluniau busnes a chynlluniau ariannol yn y cyd-destun hwn efallai. Ond wedi dweud hynny, maen nhw’n arfau hanfodol ar gyfer asesu i ba raddau mae Trafnidiaeth Cymru yn llwyddo i fodloni gofynion ei gylch gwaith ac a yw’n sicrhau gwerth am arian. Un o’n hargymhellion ni, felly, oedd y dylai Trafnidiaeth Cymru gael trefn ar ei gynlluniau. O eleni ymlaen, dylai gyhoeddi cynlluniau busnes a chynlluniau ariannol cyn dechrau pob blwyddyn ariannol.

Mae yna broblemau hanesyddol yn ymwneud â chyflwyno dyraniadau cyllideb Trafnidiaeth Cymru sy’n ei gwneud hi bron yn amhosibl craffu ar faint o arian sy’n cael ei ddyrannu ac at ba ddiben. Unwaith eto, roedd gennym ni rywfaint o gydymdeimlad â Thrafnidiaeth Cymru. Fe ddywedodd y prif weithredwr y gallai’r broses o bennu’r gyllideb olygu cynifer â 25 o sgyrsiau dwyochrog gyda gwahanol ddeiliaid cyllideb Llywodraeth Cymru. Nawr, mae hyn i’w weld yn ofnadwy o fiwrocrataidd i ni fel pwyllgor. Dylai bod yn agored ac yn dryloyw fod yn egwyddorion sylfaenol i sefydliad cyhoeddus fel Trafnidiaeth Cymru, a byddai symleiddio’r broses hon yn ein barn ni yn helpu yn hynny o beth.

Rwy’n falch bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi derbyn yr holl argymhellion yn rhan 1 yr adroddiad, a bod Trafnidiaeth Cymru felly am eu rhoi ar waith. Ers cyhoeddi’r adroddiad, fe welwyd cynnydd da eisoes ym maes llywodraethu a thryloywder. Mi fyddwn ni'n cynnal ein sesiwn graffu flynyddol gyda Thrafnidiaeth Cymru yn ddiweddarach eleni, a byddwn ni, wrth gwrs, yn ailedrych ar y materion yma i weld a yw’r sefyllfa wedi gwella bryd hynny.

Mae ail ran ein hadroddiad ni yn ymdrin â’r mater ehangach, fel roeddwn ni’n dweud, o adfer gwasanaethau bysiau a threnau ar ôl pandemig COVID. Hoffwn ddiolch yn arbennig ar ran y pwyllgor i’r aelodau o’r cyhoedd a gyfrannodd at ein gwaith drwy gymryd rhan yn y grwpiau ffocws a’r cyfweliadau amrywiol a gynhaliwyd gennym ni ar hyd a lled Cymru ar y mater yma. Fe gafodd y pandemig effaith enfawr ar y nifer a oedd yn defnyddio trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus. Roedd gan nifer o bobl ofn mynd ar y bws neu’r trên. Roedd llawer llai o wasanaethau, a phobl yn yr ardaloedd tlotaf, gyda llaw, a gafodd eu taro galetaf yn hynny o beth. Ond roedd llawer o’r newidiadau sylfaenol a welon ni yn digwydd yn ystod y pandemig, pethau fel siopa ar-lein ac efallai’r tueddiad fwyfwy i weithio o gartref, mi oedd y rheini yn dod yn fwyfwy cyffredin yn ein cymdeithas ni cyn y pandemig. Ond wrth gwrs mae wedi dod llawer mwy arferol nawr i bobl, fel dwi’n dweud, i weithio gartref, ac yn y blaen.

Mae bysiau a threnau’n hanfodol nid yn unig er mwyn ein helpu ni i gyrraedd ein targedau newid hinsawdd yma yng Nghymru, ond hefyd i greu cymdeithas lle mae’n hawdd i bobl gael at y gwasanaethau, i gael at yr addysg a’r gwaith sydd eu hangen arnyn nhw i fyw bywyd llawn. Felly, y cwestiwn i ni fel pwyllgor, wrth gwrs, oedd: beth mae angen ei wneud i annog mwy o bobl i ddefnyddio trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus? Ac mae ein hadroddiad ni, fel y byddech chi’n disgwyl, yn ystyried nifer o’r materion hyn.

Mae’n rhaid i newid moddol, modal shift, fod yn ganolog i’r gwaith hwn. Yn gyntaf, mae angen i ni ddeall sut fath o drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus y mae pobl am ei chael a sut maen nhw am ei defnyddio. Pa mor barhaol yw’r newidiadau a welon ni yn ystod y pandemig, ac ers hynny, a beth fydd y patrwm yn y dyfodol? Dwi’n falch bod y Dirprwy Weinidog wedi derbyn ein holl argymhellion ni yn y maes hwn. Roeddwn yn falch hefyd o weld bod y Dirprwy Weinidog wedi cyfeirio at arolwg teithio cenedlaethol i Gymru yn ei ymateb. Mi fyddwn i’n ddiolchgar pe gallai fe ddweud mwy wrthyn ni, efallai, am yr arolwg a sut y bydd hwnnw yn cael ei ddefnyddio i ddylanwadu ar benderfyniadau ynghylch polisi a’r gyllideb yn y dyfodol, pan fydd e’n ymateb i’r ddadl.

Yn ail, mae angen seilio polisïau ar dargedau priodol. Mae strategaeth drafnidiaeth a chynllun sero net Llywodraeth Cymru yn gosod targedau ar gyfer newid moddol. Er enghraifft, dylai 7 y cant o deithiau gael eu gwneud ar drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus erbyn 2030, a dylai hynny godi i 13 y cant erbyn 2040. Mae’r rhain yn dargedau uchelgeisiol ac, yn sicr, dwi ddim yn mynd i feirniadu’r Dirprwy Weinidog am ddangos uchelgais yn hynny o beth, ond roedd gormod o’n rhanddeiliaid ni yn amau a yw’r math o drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus sy’n cael ei gynnig ar hyn o bryd yn ddigon da i’n rhoi ni ar y trywydd iawn i gyrraedd targed 2030.

Mae angen i ni ei gwneud hi'n hawdd ac yn haws i bobl adael y car gartref a theithio ar y bws neu'r trên. Rŷn ni’n gwybod o'n gwaith gyda rhanddeiliaid mai cost, hwylustod a mynediad at wasanaethau yw'r tri maes pwysicaf i ddefnyddwyr. Gallwn ni drafod cymhlethdodau newid ymddygiad gymaint ag y mynnwn ni, ond byddai ymdrin â’r tri phwynt yna yn sicr yn fan cychwyn da.

Mi ges i'r pleser yn gynharach heddiw o siarad mewn digwyddiad i lansio adroddiad newydd gan Gydffederasiwn Trafnidiaeth Teithwyr Cymru ynghylch annog pobl i deithio ar fws neu ar goets, ar coach, yn lle defnyddio’u ceir. Mae’n werth nodi, gyda llaw, fod materion tebyg iawn yn cael eu codi yn ein hadroddiad ni a’r adroddiad a oedd yn cael ei gyhoeddi’r prynhawn yma.

O ran cost trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus, mi oedd tlodi trafnidiaeth yn peri pryder arbennig i ni fel pwyllgor. Mae tlodi trafnidiaeth yn effeithio’n anghymesur ar rai grwpiau demograffig yn fwy na’i gilydd, yn cynnwys grwpiau megis pobl anabl, pobl hŷn a menywod. Un o’n hargymhellion ni oedd y dylai Llywodraeth Cymru gynnig cymhorthdal i ostwng pris tocynnau a mathau eraill o gymorth ariannol. Hoffwn i glywed mwy gan y Dirprwy Weinidog am y sefyllfa ddiweddaraf mewn perthynas â’r cynigion hyn.

Fydd hi ddim yn hawdd datblygu rhwydwaith trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus integredig y bydd yn hawdd i bobl ei ddefnyddio pan fydd ei angen ac sy’n fforddiadwy. I ddechrau, rŷn ni’n gwybod i wneud hynny y bydd angen buddsoddiad sylweddol. Mi fydd yr Aelodau i gyd yn gwybod nad yw’r seilwaith rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru wedi’i ariannu’n ddigonol yn hanesyddol. Sut allwn ni ddatblygu system drafnidiaeth integredig heb fuddsoddiad priodol yn y seilwaith rheilffyrdd? Dwi’n falch bod y Dirprwy Weinidog yn cydnabod y ddadl dros ddatganoli’r cyfrifoldebau dros reilffyrdd yn llawn, a dros sicrhau bod Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig yn dyrannu cyllid teg. Yn wyneb penderfyniadau tebyg i’r rhai a wnaed yng nghyd-destun HS2 a’r ffaith bod Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig, i bob golwg, wedi gwrthod hyd yn oed ystyried dyrannu cyllid priodol i Gymru, mae’n anodd anghytuno â’r ddadl dros ddatganoli.

O ran cyllid ar gyfer bysiau, polisi presennol Llywodraeth Cymru yw i 50 y cant o’r bysiau gwasanaeth sy’n llygru fwyaf gael eu disodli gan fysiau heb allyriadau pibellau mwg erbyn 2028, ac i bob tacsi a cherbyd hurio preifat hefyd beidio bod yn cynhyrchu unrhyw allyriadau erbyn 2028—yr un flwyddyn. Nawr, mi fydd y gost o ddatgarboneiddio’r sector bysiau yn uchel, ac mi fydd angen cymorth ariannol ar y sector i gyflawni hynny. Mae’r Dirprwy Weinidog wedi dweud bod cynlluniau cyflawni’n cael eu paratoi i gyrraedd y targedau a nodir yn Sero Net Cymru, ac mi fyddwn i'n ddiolchgar iawn pe bai o’n dweud mwy wrthym ni am hynny yn ei ymateb.

Dirprwy Lywydd, fel y dywedais i ar y dechrau, mae hwn yn adroddiad eang ei gwmpas, a dwi ddim wedi gallu mynd ar ôl pob sgwarnog ac ymdrin â phob dim yn fy nghyfraniad i. Mae'n bosibl y bydd Aelodau eraill, yn amlwg, yn cael cyfle i dynnu sylw at rai ohonyn nhw. Ond hoffwn i gloi drwy ddweud y bydd y blynyddoedd nesaf yn rhai cyffrous iawn i fysiau a threnau. Mae’r Bil diwygio bysiau, wrth gwrs, yn gyfle da i wella gwasanaethau bysiau yng Nghymru ac, yn bwysicaf oll, i sicrhau eu bod nhw'n canolbwyntio mwy ar y cwsmer. Mae cynnydd i’w weld hefyd o ran cynlluniau’r metro, ac mae yna ddarn mawr o waith i ni fel pwyllgor yn cadw llygad ar y datblygiadau yn y maes yna. Ond er ein bod ni yn gweld cynnydd, mae angen gofyn yr un hen gwestiwn: a yw’r cynnydd yma yn digwydd yn ddigon cyflym? Ydy, mae'r sefyllfa ariannol ehangach wedi'i gwneud hi'n anoddach fyth i gyrraedd targedau trafnidiaeth sero net Llywodraeth Cymru, ond y cyfan ddywedaf i wrth gloi'r cyfraniad cyntaf i'r ddadl yma yw, fel pwyllgor, mi fyddwn ni'n sicr yn parhau i asesu cynnydd ac yn parhau, yn sgil hynny, i adrodd yn ôl i’r Senedd yma. Diolch.

First off, I'd like to thank the Chairman, my fellow committee members, as well as all the panelists and staff who supported us in our work on this report. Now, between the pandemic, strike action and the cost-of-living crisis, public transport in Wales and across the UK is facing a wide variety of challenges. This means it's even more important than ever for the Welsh Government to deliver a joined-up sustainable plan for bus and rail companies. It's also important to look ahead to the future. Recommendation 6 of the report states that 

'The Welsh Government should provide an update on the work it is undertaking with other partners to understand future travel patterns...and their impact'.

I know that my colleague Natasha Asghar will have more to say on the scrutiny of Transport for Wales, but as shadow Minister for climate change, I'd like to reiterate how important public transport by rail and bus is to meeting our environmental targets. If the Welsh Government wants to meet Wales's net-zero obligations, people need access to travel that is both reliable and affordable. Only this morning we were talking about the road scheme having been stopped by the Deputy Minister. That's all well and good if you've got the public transport infrastructure in place, and sadly we don't have that in Wales.

Access to public transport, particularly bus travel, is essential to address social deprivation and mobility. University of South Wales research found that the most deprived areas saw the greatest decline in access to services due to the pandemic. Evidence from Transport for Wales shows that 13 per cent of Welsh households don't even have access to a car, and 25 per cent of bus users have a disability or a long-term illness. So, the Welsh Government, Minister and Deputy Minister, need to consider what can be done to help our most vulnerable, often living in quite socially isolated areas. The current cost-of-living crisis cannot result in those who are struggling losing their access to public transport. 

Recommendation 15 states that 

'The Welsh Government should set out what assessment it has made of the impact of energy costs and the cost-of-living crisis on its modal shift targets.'

As we mentioned in the report, the UK Government has already moved to cap bus fares outside of London at £2. Silviya Barrett confirmed that bus services in Wales declined by 45 per cent in the 10 years between 2011-12 and 2020-21, but in that last year, between March 2020 and March 2021, which was the first year of the pandemic, the cuts were 36 per cent. According to Joe Rossiter, the reduction of rail and bus services has had a significant impact on our rural communities and—this is the crux of the issue—not everyone is being affected equally by the reduction in services. People in remote and rural communities will disproportionately feel the impacts of reductions in service. And as we note in the report, there are risks that the proposed franchising system outlined in the bus reform Bill could actually close out smaller operators. These operators, particularly in rural Wales, are well placed to understand the needs of their local communities and respond to changes in demand. Certainly in my constituency, we have Llew Jones, who's a small bus operator, and he really works with the community and the passengers. We've also got now the introduction of the Fflecsi bus service, and that's proving to be a really worthwhile scheme.

We agree with the suggestion that the Bill should include provision to ensure that smaller companies can participate in the franchising process. We're pleased that the White Paper acknowledges this and includes proposals for addressing it. However, we do need to emphasise that the process should be designed in such a way as to minimise the cost of submitting bids for those smaller operators. Whilst I appreciate the financial constraints, there is more that could be done with the organisations that are already in place. In particular, we've seen clear evidence of a lack of co-ordination in delivering transport between different local authorities. Josh Miles believed that ‘Bws Cymru’ has lots of the right areas in it, but his main concern was that some of the underpinning elements of the strategy were simply not being delivered. He said there needs to be a focus on delivery, and that

'Local authorities don't have much by way of staff or resources to be able to put into the process at the moment.... So, there are just a lot of things going on and we haven't quite got the coherence or the investment to deliver things yet'.

Comments made by our witnesses such as these highlight that a lack of joined-up thinking can impact transport policy. It’s something that the report's already identified and we need to seek to address. I appreciate that some of these views have been taken on board. The reputation, consistency and reliability of public transport—

Janet, can you conclude now, please?

—all need to improve if we are to return to public transport, as per recommendation 7. Diolch.