National Assembly for Wales

Welcome, everyone, to the Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in a hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting. These are noted on the agenda.

The first item this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Climate Change, and the first question is from Samuel Kurtz.

Investment, legislative drivers and a robust regulatory framework has led to 42 per cent of our inland waters achieving good ecological status. We are committed to improving water quality but we cannot do this alone. We need to take an integrated catchment approach, focusing on multisector co-operation and nature-based solutions.

Diolch yn fawr, Weinidog, and good afternoon. I'm sure you'll join me in welcoming the recent improvements that were adopted in the UK Environment Bill to improve inland water quality in England, in particular the legal duty that is placed on water companies to progressively reduce the impact of permitted and non-permitted discharges from combined sewage overflows, known more commonly as CSOs. Had I been fortunate enough to have been drawn in the Member's legislative proposal ballot, I was intending to bring forward an inland waterways Bill—a draft piece of legislation that strives for cleaner rivers, seas and lakes here in Wales. With that in mind, what action is the Welsh Government taking to place a duty on water companies to take all reasonable steps to ensure that sewage is not being discharged into our streams and rivers and to also increase the number of Welsh inland bathing waters classified as 'good' or 'excellent'?

Well, I think there are a couple of misconceptions there. The first is confusing England for Wales, which is a very common problem on the benches opposite. The UK Government has legislated to set targets for water companies in England to reduce sewage discharges and water quality. The assumption and the widespread perception on the opposite benches that that's the main cause of poor water quality in Wales is just not borne out by the evidence. 

We've done a series of pieces of work, including the phosphates compliance assessments, which I notice the Member opposed and, indeed, accused Plaid Cymru of betraying Welsh farmers by dropping their opposition to them. So, his sudden interest in inland water quality is quite an interesting one. I think he would be better off having a seriously good look at what we are doing to improve the entire catchment area water quality to make sure that we understand the causes of the pollution and that we are able to stop them at source rather than making the kind of generalised remarks that are very unhelpful.

One of the major problems regarding inland water quality is discharge into rivers, which then goes into lakes. A serious concern raised with me by my constituents is Welsh water discharge into the River Tawe at the Trebanos treatment works in the Neath constituency, which affects water in my constituency, because the water from Trebanos comes down until it hits the sea in your constituency, Minister. What discussions has the Minister had with Welsh water regarding discharge into rivers?

Yes, thank you, Mike Hedges. As Mike Hedges will know, we've got a very good overflow scheme, which is a natural solution in his constituency, I think it is, at the top, which benefits my constituency. And that's a very good example of catchment area approaches, because obviously the river flows through a large number of different areas of Wales. It's very important therefore to make sure that we have sustainable nature-based solutions to divert, as he says, as much surface water as possible away from the sewerage systems in the first place to avoid the overflow that he speaks of.

We've taken a number of steps to tackle discharges from overflows. This includes making sustainable drainage systems, or SuDS, mandatory on almost all new building developments. The purpose of this is to relieve pressure on the network by redirecting and slowing down the speed at which such surface water enters the sewage system and it will help ensure that our storm overflows are used only as a very last resort.

As we speak, the water companies are preparing drainage and waste water management plans, which will be published for public consultation at the beginning of next year. The plans will provide a mechanism for water companies, local authorities and landowners to work together to develop a resilient and affordable waste water network to identify evidence-based priorities for investment.

I have had a number of meetings with Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water. I understand that they have investigated high-spilling combined overflows in the River Tawe as part of their storm overflow assessment framework investigations. Natural Resources Wales is working with the water companies to ensure investment is targeted appropriately. They also ensure that using nature-based solutions, which will reduce discharges from overflows and deliver wider environmental and social benefits, are taken into account when planning the network.

'Future Wales' identifies 10 pre-assessed areas for wind energy developments of national significance. There are currently 10 developments of national significance in progress within or partly within the pre-assessed areas. Eight are at the pre-application stage, one is at the notification stage, and one is at the report stage.

Thank you, Minister. A RenewableUK Cymru analysis report has recently highlighted that, when spatial limitations are applied, such as proximity to housing, Ministry of Defence training areas, main river corridors, and even proximity to other windfarm developments, which would be applied during any planning application process, then the actual usable land that's available for windfarm developments within these pre-assessed areas drastically decreases to only 5 per cent, reducing the capacity to generate electricity from wind to only 20 per cent of what is predicted. This is, in effect, a major shortcoming of your renewable generation strategy, and, given that the Welsh Government's target is to generate 70 per cent renewable energy by 2030, it will no doubt seriously hinder the ability of that target to be met. With this in mind, can the Minister confirm whether or not she knows of these limitations, and whether or not the pre-assessed areas will need to be re-evaluated as a result? Thank you.

Well, I set out in my initial response to you that we have 10 developments of national significance in progress, which is very good news, considering the length of time that 'Future Wales' has been in place. So, I appreciate the point you're making, but it's not borne out by the number of applications we currently have inside the system. I'd just like to also point out that the pre-assessed areas are not necessarily the only place you can build a windfarm or any other renewable in Wales; there are just slightly different planning assumptions made in those areas. So, there's nothing at all to stop anyone bringing forward a solution elsewhere in Wales, but they will of course have to go through the process.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson first, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Good afternoon, Minister. Now, in a recent virtual round-table I held with Propertymark, it was predicted that there's going to be a huge increase in people looking for rental properties. And I would like to refer Members and members of the public to my own register of interests. This is causing immense pressure for front-line staff in the sales and letting sector, because there are very few properties to rent or buy. Holmans recommend that up to 12,000 homes a year need to be built in Wales by 2031, yet the figures for dwellings completed in 2018-19 was 30.6 per cent less than at the start of devolution. Now, this is a downward decline. Yet, in your letter to the leaders and chief executives, to local authorities, on 17 November, you stated,

'It appears that we are already building the number of market homes we need'.

So, how can this be the case, when only 5,138 new homes were started in 2019? And with this in mind, Minister, do you accept that the appropriate way to respond to the property crisis in Wales would be through empowering existing businesses to build new market homes, rather than wasting time and resources on creating your own national construction company?

Well, the juxtaposition of the two things at the end is quite startling, so I'll deal with that first. The idea that a national construction company would somehow get in the way of building new homes is quite extraordinary. We have yet, as part of the co-operation agreement, to explore with our Plaid Cymru partners exactly how we're going to use the construction company. But we have had a large number of conversations with our registered social landlords and our councils about the shortage of skilled labour, the difficulty of getting good apprentices in place, and the paucity of very good advice about bringing forward developments in good time. So, we will have a very productive conversation with Plaid Cymru about how to fill in gaps where there has been market failure, and other issues where we can bring forward housing in an appropriate way.

The evidence is really interesting, actually, from the Labour Government after the second world war, elected by the returning troops, that an enormous increase in social house building actually stimulated the private market and didn't depress it in any way. The graphs are very interesting, and we are absolutely certain that we will be doing the same thing with our ambitious 20,000 social homes programme. 

Thank you. Minister, on the one hand, you see yourself capable of going into competition with some of our finest builders using taxpayers' money, but, on the other hand, you are actually holding back on the number of homes that we are able to build due to your own or NRW's phosphate guidance. Attendees at the phosphate stakeholders group that I chair made clear that NRW are essentially blocking as many as 10,000 new homes across Wales, including 1,700 of those affordable homes. The cabinet member for planning in Pembrokeshire County Council has reported that the number of applications refused due to NRW guidance will rise sharply in the next few months. Last month, you told this Senedd, and I quote,

'I've got absolutely no problem with NRW's'—

[Interruption.] I'm talking to the Minister, not the Deputy. 

—'with NRW's guidance on the subject.' 

So, will you now retract that statement, and block, or unblock the block, unlock the block—[Laughter.]—of thousands of new homes by authorising exceptions to this guidance, and empower planning authorities to accept phosphate stripping technology in waste water treatment assets as reasonable solutions? 

Well, Janet, I just don't know where to start. First of all, you started with an assessment of the national construction company, which clearly indicated you weren't listening to the answer I had just given you. Quite clearly, I did not say anything about setting up in competition with any of our SME builders, who we have an extremely good relationship with, and who I have a consultative forum with, which I attended extremely recently to discuss it with them. So, let me just put that one to bed. There is absolutely no suggestion of any sort that any public company will be set up as a competitor in the construction market for our SMEs. So, I think you should have listened to that, and be very assured that that's not the case. What I did say very vehemently was that there are a number of market failures, gaps in skills, and things that have been brought to our attention by both council and RSL house builders and by the SME building forum, where it is profitable to have a conversation about a national construction company filling in the gaps. It's a conversation we have yet to have with Plaid Cymru, following the co-operation agreement, and I'll be sure, Deputy Presiding Officer, to bring it forward to the Senedd when we are able to bring the Senedd up to speed on that. 

On the other point, Janet Finch-Saunders has often said that she is in favour of the climate emergency and the solutions that come forward to it, and yet she blocks at every turn every single solution put forward. I will just leave the Welsh public to reach their own conclusions about her sincerity on this point. 

Minister, it is abundantly clear from your responses that, alongside failing to facilitate a much needed house building boom in Wales, you are actively supporting guidance that is holding the sector back. The urgent need to see more new homes delivered is clear when considering the financial black hole that is the temporary home crisis facing our local authorities. I've written to 22 local authorities—FOIs. And the figures—I've yet more to come out on this—are a scandal, and they're startling. For example, Caerphilly County Borough Council have seen their spend on temporary accommodation increase from £174,000 in 2018-19 to just over £1.2 million in 2020-21, and that is not an isolated incident. Gwynedd's spend on temporary accommodation has similarly increased by 265 per cent from 2018-19 to 2020-21, hitting almost £1.7 million. Minister, given that your statement on homelessness last week said you wish to strengthen links between local authorities and the private sector, will you commit to undertaking a deep-dive with local authorities to review how to more effectively provide long-term homes for our much needed residents? Diolch. 

So, again, Janet, I almost admire your ability to put two facts together and make three completely different ones with no relation to the original two. So, we have an ambitious social home building programme of 20,000 low-carbon social homes in the next Senedd term. This is now possible because, after 40 years of preventing councils from building houses, the Tory Government eventually saw sense and took off the caps from the housing revenue accounts. So, I applaud you for having seen sense after only 40 years of ploughing the same furrow.

The next bit of sense you need to see is that the social homes programme and the zero-carbon homes programme is the thing that stimulates the housing market, and that we need to build the right houses of the right standard in the right place, and not just put up any old nonsense all across the countryside, as is proposed across the border. I absolutely applaud all of the agencies working here, including our SME builders, who have been working very hard with us to bring forward that programme. My colleague the Deputy Minister has launched a pipeline for construction across Wales, which has allowed them to fill in the cash flow problems that they have, and we have a very good relationship with them.

On the homelessness point, we provide £1.8 million a month to councils in Wales to combat homelessness brought on by the COVID pandemic. I would that her Government across the border would do anything of the sort and solve the appalling scandal of rough-sleeping that you get under a Conservative Government. 

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Last week, the head of Transport for Wales said that travelling on their trains was fundamentally safe. Welsh Government guidance states that the following measures need to be followed to ensure COVID safety: keeping distance from other people, avoiding crowded spaces, good ventilation when in close proximity to others, and wearing face coverings. So, are these measures being followed on trains? I asked commuters for their experiences over social media, and these are some of the phrases from the responses I received: 'Crammed carriages, nobody wearing masks'; 'People crammed like sardines'; 'Impossible to ensure COVID safety'; 'Like a cattle cart and little mask wearing'; '90 per cent not wearing masks on the Rhymney line'; and 'Windows shut with no ventilation'. One person said they thought they'd caught COVID on an overcrowded TfW train between Chester and Bangor a few weeks ago. Another said she had a panic attack on the train during the last rugby game day because so many people were stood and crammed on the train. I was also sent pictures, Minister, of crammed carriages with little or no mask wearing. So, Minister, do you agree with the head of Transport for Wales that travelling on trains in Wales is fundamentally safe?

Thank you. I think the full quote, to give him fairness, was to acknowledge that there were considerable challenges of overcrowding, and some passengers were refusing to wear masks despite the very clear guidelines, but fundamentally, the trains are safe, given the cleaning regimes put in place, and given all the other things that Transport for Wales are doing to follow the guidelines. They're making extraordinary efforts, but there is no doubt that there are challenges, and there are a number of reasons for that.

You quoted the issue of the rugby matches that were held by the Welsh Rugby Union late in the evening when they knew full well that there would be limited train services following the game, which would create, clearly, a pressure on the system. There are also other problems hitting the rail industry at the moment, where trains are being cancelled and carriages being damaged because of the storms and because of the weather. In fact, on the train I caught up to Glasgow, one was taken out of service because it hit a pheasant on the line. Now, that is not TfW's fault. There's also a challenge around staff absences because of self-isolation, so there's no doubt that the public transport system is under great pressure at the moment. 

The issue of mask wearing is ultimately one of personal responsibility. There are people claiming to be exempt from mask wearing when, clearly, that is not the case. But it is almost impossible to prove that. We have, working with British Transport Police, measures in place to enforce mask wearing, and a number of people have been removed from services when challenged and not able to provide a valid excuse. I think there are a confluence of conditions all converging to make things very challenging, but public transport remains a safe mode of transport. But there's no doubt that, sometimes in the day, services are crowded.  

Minister, I fully agree that we need to be cognisant of the various challenges that the transport sector is facing. Regardless of whose fault these risks are, I struggle to see how it can be said that trains are fundamentally safe, but, maybe, at some times of the day, they're not. I saw last night that someone was quoting George Orwell on Twitter, but it was in relation to No. 10's insistence that the now infamous COVID party didn't happen. Orwell said:

'The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.'

I know we need to move on, Minister, but if the health Minister is in the Chamber, I'd urge her to look at this as well, because I really think there is a mountain of evidence that taking a train in Wales can mean taking a significant COVID risk. 

But to move on, Minister, clearly the root cause of this terrible state of our train services is the continual underfunding of Welsh rail. The Wales Governance Centre has calculated that we've been underfunded to the tune of around £500 million over the past 10 years. But it does also seem that the Welsh Government has underdelivered on its promises, or perhaps previous Welsh Governments. When the franchise was awarded to KeolisAmey in 2018, it said that the railway would be unrecognisable in five years, thanks to the vision of the Welsh Government. So, Minister, could you give us an update on how the railway will look in two years' time, now that it's in public ownership? Are we really going to see transformative improvements? And could you give us your view on how much agency the Government truly has over rail and how much is simply out of its hands because it doesn't control the funding?

There certainly are significant changes taking place for the better. Last week, we unveiled a new fleet of trains to replace the Pacers, and once you have the chance to go on them yourself, you'll see that it is a transformative passenger experience. We're also developing the south Wales metro programme, which is a huge civil engineering project—the largest infrastructure project that south Wales will have seen for many decades. So, there is no doubt that there is significant change at the agency of the Welsh Government. But also, we must acknowledge that COVID has disrupted plans in terms of collapsing the franchise—and certainly, the Welsh franchise wasn't the only franchise to fall apart under the strain of the disappearing farebox and the increasing cost pressures—and that has knocked back the delivery schedule that we had for increasing the timetable and for bringing new services forward. So, that is an inevitable fact for which we are deeply sorry, but that is out of our hands.

In terms of the underinvestment, the Member makes an absolutely bang-on point. The UK Government has consistently underinvested, and in the next programme of funding we are some £5 billion short of where we ought to be. As the First Minister touched upon in First Minister's questions again yesterday, the refusal of the UK Government to class high speed 2 as an England-only project, despite the fact that not a single mile of track is in Wales, is clearly having a massive effect on our ability to invest in the rail infrastructure. And I would say to Conservative Members in the Chamber that I remember full well the alliance that was forged in this Chamber on electrification some 10 years ago, when there was a genuine cross-party effort to bang the drum for Wales. I took part in the delegation before becoming a Senedd Member with Members of the Conservative Party to make that case to UK Ministers. It was effective, and we are strongest when we are united. I'd like to see a similar alliance to make the case, on fairness grounds, that Wales needs to be treated differently when it comes to the categorisation of high-speed rail. Otherwise, we're not going to be able to fulfil our joint ambitions to achieve net zero by 2050.

Minister, taking up that exact point, Wales could lose out on £5 billion due to being excluded from Barnett consequentials for HS2 spending. This, as you'll obviously know, represents around 5 per cent of the total expended expenditure of the project. It could, of course, be much higher if the cost spirals, which is likely. In the words of the Western Mail's Will Hayward, 

'The decision to count HS2, a once in a century investment, as England and Wales spend has condemned Wales to another century of a second class rail network.'

Even though the decision to exclude Wales from this funding, as you've been setting out, Minister, was made by a Conservative UK Government, past Labour Welsh Governments have also contributed to this mess. There was a decision in 2005 to refuse the devolution of rail, described as the worst decision in the history of devolution. And there was the inability, in the past, to understand Plaid Cymru's argument on HS2 a decade later, with Carwyn Jones insisting that Wales was receiving its HS2 consequential, even though setting the HS2 comparability factor for Wales at 0 per cent would see our comparability factor for Department for Transport spending plummet in the future, which is what we're seeing now. I'm sure that the current Labour Welsh Government is keen to—

You need to ask your question now.

Could you confirm, Minister, that the Welsh Government has received confirmation from Keir Starmer that a future Labour UK Government would provide Wales with the full Barnett share of HS2 expenditure, backdated to the first pound spent?

I've certainly, personally, consistently made the argument for the Barnett formula to reflect the spending in England and in Wales. In fact, I led a coalition of organisations to have the Holtham commission set up, using this as one of the examples. And when I was director of the Institute of Welsh Affairs, I consistently made the case, so I'll take no lectures from the Member on that. But she is absolutely right that Westminster Governments of different parties have not recognised that Wales deserves more investment, and that's why I repeat my call to the Conservatives for all in this Chamber to come together to see if we can agree a cross-party call to the UK Government to think again on the way Wales is treated when it comes to rail investment.

The Welsh Government funds local authorities to reduce the risk posed to communities by coastal erosion. However, addressing the consequences of river erosion is the responsibility of the riparian landowners whose property adjoins or contains the watercourse. This is a principle that has been long established in common law. 

I wrote to you, Minister, on 7 October asking for a meeting to discuss a problem faced by residents in Caerphilly who face potential damage to their homes due to the problem of river erosion. Notwithstanding your answer, I'd just like to go through the scenario with you and ask for a response. One group of residents at Celyn Avenue in Caerphilly have experienced an increase in incidents of erosion and subsequent flooding in their gardens, which back on to the banks of the Nant yr Aber river. Natural Resources Wales have advised the residents that they can't access any funding or support for flooding because it's their gardens, as opposed to their homes, that are affected, so these properties are not accorded a high priority according to the flood risk management model. However, residents are concerned that their homes will be flooded eventually, because Nant yr Aber is rising and its banks are wearing away, not just on their property but below their property, which isn't part of their property, due to climate change and increased rainfall. Natural Resources Wales say they cannot legally spend public money on mitigating and preventing river erosion, only on flooding, and they don't have statutory powers to do so and can only work within the remit set for them by the Welsh Government. A key issue here is that the cost of repairing and putting this right for those properties in Celyn Avenue goes beyond the means—way beyond the means—of those residents who live there; they simply cannot afford it. They're elderly residents, they haven't got the money—

You need to ask the question.

—to pay for it. So, I'd really welcome a meeting with you, Minister, to discuss this issue, particularly that of long-term erosion and consequences for properties. It's an issue we didn't have some time ago.

Well, Hefin David, I'm really sorry to hear of the impact that river erosion is having on your constituents. I understand that Natural Resources Wales has met with you and the affected residents, and you've just outlined the advice. Unfortunately, you are absolutely right; the riparian landowner is responsible. The riparian landowner is somebody whose property contains the watercourse or whose property is adjacent to or above the watercourse. That's been an established common law principle in England and Wales for over 200 years, so this isn't new law by any means. There is a guide published by Natural Resources Wales, titled 'A guide to your rights and responsibilities of riverside ownership in Wales'. We do invest money in alleviation of flood risk from rivers, but flood risk to properties—you're right—and not to gardens. So, you're quite right. I'm quite happy to meet with you to go through it, but I fear that you're correct in your assumption. Your constituents will have to take advice on whether their insurances or their lenders can help them. Otherwise, I really am afraid that we're at a bit of a loss as to how to help them, but I'm more than happy to meet with you and explore whether there is something that could be done.

I'd like to start by declaring an interest, as I'm a Denbighshire councillor until May 2022. I'm afraid I'm going to keep banging on about this and sound a bit like a broken record, because, you know, I've mentioned this question a couple of times in the past. The communities of Trefnant and Tremeirchion are still dealing with the consequences of the terrible flooding that resulted from storm Christoph at the start of the year. The vital link between these two communities in my constituency was eroded and washed away. It will be years before the historic Llanerch bridge is replaced, and only if Denbighshire County Council can secure the millions of pounds needed to fund the rebuilding efforts. So, Minister, will you commit your Government to providing the funding and work with the council in replacing this vital community link and essential active travel route as soon as possible?

I'm not entirely certain what that's got to do with erosion in riparian watercourses, but if the Member wants to write to me again and ask for a meeting, I'm happy to do so.

A number of communities on the shores of Llŷn have seen significant landslides over the past weeks and months. The most obvious was a landslide in Nefyn back in April, but there have been other cases across the region. Indeed, the British Geological Survey has allocated Nefyn as a landslide danger zone. These landslides are a threat to property and life, and cause real anxiety to residents of seaside communities. So, what assurances can you give the residents of Nefyn and the surrounding areas that are at threat of landslide that the Government and relevant bodies are undertaking the necessary work to safeguard life and property in the areas that are under threat such as Nefyn and other communities in Llŷn? Thank you.

Thank you for the question.

This is a really complicated area of law. So, sometimes, the river course is owned by someone, so sometimes the whole river course is owned by it. It's a fact of common law, though, that the edges of the river are owned by the properties adjacent to and containing the watercourse, unless there is an ability to show that the whole of the watercourse is owned by someone. So, it rather depends on how those ownerships pan out and what the infrastructure looks like above them. So, we have flood protection risks for properties and for infrastructure, but not unfortunately for gardens and for others types of land. So, I'm afraid it's a more complex question than that. I'd be happy to explore with the Member exactly what we're looking at.

Unfortunately, this is a consequence of the climate change emergency that we're all looking at. We're all experiencing greater amounts of rainfall, higher winds, really big problems with storms. So, again, my sympathies go out to the people who are suffering this. Our current system of flood protection extends, as I say, to flooding on properties and infrastructure of the sort, but not to the kind of erosion that Hefin David's constituencies are experiencing. I'd be very happy to explore further with you what can be done in certain circumstances, but I'm afraid it's very dependent on ownership patterns and other issues around the area.FootnoteLink

Thank you for the question.

Our Transforming Towns programme is supporting the long-term sustainability of our town and city centres by increasing footfall and making them attractive places to be. Town and city centres across the South Wales Central region have benefited from £13.8 million worth of Transforming Towns funding since January 2020.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Last Saturday, I met with two of Wales's youth climate ambassadors, Leo and Alfred, who live in the Pontypridd area. Amongst the issues we discussed were town centres and how some current and planned developments seem to be missing opportunities to make our town centres greener and play a greater role in being part of our response to the climate and nature emergency, as well as improving air quality. They cited some innovative international examples such as vertical gardens, which go beyond tree planting and flower pots, and asked why Wales isn't doing more in this regard. They cited not only the benefits but also how communities can shape and take ownership of such projects to inspire residents and activism. I'm aware that you launched the ministerial town centre action group and sub-groups, which of course is welcomed to address the challenges faced by our town centres, but how will you ensure that responding to the climate and nature emergency is central to this group's work and that local authorities are supported and actively encouraged to be innovative and green in their own town centre developments?

I certainly agree with the challenge—and I thought the Member dealt brilliantly well with the heckling that she was getting from behind her and deserves points for that. [Laughter.]

I certainly think there are examples in regeneration projects of biophilic houses, there's certainly one in Swansea that looks very promising, and I certainly think that the youth climate ambassadors she's met with have a very strong argument, and I'd be keen to discuss with them and with her what more can be done. We have set up a ministerial town centre taskforce that I've asked to take forward the report by Professor Karel Williams and by Audit Wales into regenerating town centres, and I'd be very happy to ask them to look in particular at the points she makes and how they can build that into their work and recommendations. 

Deputy Minister, what assistance are you giving to partners to try and get energy charging points in town centres? Because if you go to out-of-town shopping centres, many of the private companies that occupy those shopping centres are installing charging points for electric vehicles. We know that Wales sadly lags behind in the installation of these charging points to other parts of the United Kingdom. It will require a joined-up approach; so, Government working with either local authorities or other business partners to see that town centres have these charging points so that they are attractive to people who have electric cars, as we know they're going to be increasingly used in the future. What actions are you taking to engage with partners to make sure there are more charging points in town centres across South Wales Central?

Well, I think we already are doing that. We’ve recently launched our action plan on electric charging, and we currently have a programme, this financial year, of investing in town centre charging points. And far from lagging behind England, as you suggest, in terms of the proportion of the electric cars we have in Wales, we have a roughly similar proportion of chargers available for the cars there are. Though, clearly, as the number of electric cars increases, as we all wish to see, then we need to keep pace with that and increase the investment. I agree with the point he makes, but I do think we are making reasonable progress.

Diolch. Transport for Wales monitor on a monthly basis the customer satisfaction with their services along with all other train operators. TfW are currently mid table and are continually striving to improve services for passengers during what has been a challenging time with COVID and adverse weather events.

Thank you for that response. I'm a very regular user of train services. In my 10 years here in the Senedd, I've driven down some twice a year. I use the train almost without exception, but I have used the train three times in the last three weeks. Three weeks ago, I was two hours late getting back to north Wales. A fortnight ago, I was caught up in the difficulty and shambles of train services on a rugby weekend—I was over an hour late getting home. And last week, I was an hour late in getting to Cardiff. Now, I am one who wants to use trains, but I have to say that I am losing faith in the service and in the ability of Transport for Wales to run the service. So, you've promised improvements over years, as we've heard this afternoon, but how patient do you expect passengers to be, because by the time you get the service up and running to where we want it, most people will have already given up?

I'm sorry to hear what Llyr Gruffydd said about his own experience travelling on the train, and how it is shaking his confidence. Clearly, if that starts to happen, then we do have significant problems. I think we do need to be understanding about the range of pressures facing the train system in Wales, and across the UK at the moment. I don’t think Transport for Wales is particularly different in some of the things it has to cope with. There has been damage to a number of trains, which has reduced the rolling stock available, and the fact that Avanti West Coast are not reinstating services across north Wales has also had an impact and created some overcrowding. I think TfW are acutely conscious of it and are working hard on it. We can’t, as Llyr Gruffydd fairly mentioned in his question, run away from the long-term impact of underinvestment that we have had, and that is now showing itself. But there's no doubt that there are, in some services, particularly acute pressures at the moment, and TfW are working hard to resolve them.

Minister, will you join me in welcoming the news of the reintroduction of direct rail services from Crosskeys to Newport, from this Sunday, 12 December, in time for Christmas? This is no mean achievement, and will be the first direct passenger rail service from the communities of Islwyn to Newport in almost 60 years. I’ve campaigned since my election to reconnect rail services in Islwyn to Newport—the proud city of Gwent—and I’m delighted that the Welsh Labour Government is delivering on that promise it made to the people of Islwyn. Minister, what actions will Welsh Labour take to deliver on our promise of the new passenger rail service from Ebbw Vale to Newport, to ensure that citizens of Newbridge can directly be reconnected to Newport, our roads decongested, our valleys further greened, and our air cleaned?

Well, not only will I join you in welcoming the Crosskeys service, but, in fact, I am getting up at 6 o'clock on Monday morning in order to catch the Crosskeys railway service and to see it come into Newport, so I don’t think my commitment can be questioned by anyone in the Chamber. It is a perfect example of what we’ve been able to do, even though rail infrastructure is not devolved to Wales—to step in where the UK Government has failed to make sure that the people of our communities are given the service they deserve.

We were able to make a significant amount of money available this year to put investment forward into the extension towards Ebbw Vale. It does require action from the UK Government and Network Rail, and we are talking to them about speeding that up. I was very pleased to read in the report by Sir Peter Hendy in the 'Union Connectivity Review' the other week his recommendation: the UK Government do more to improve rail services into Wales and within Wales. He also significantly embraced the recommendations of the Burns review, to deal with congestion around Newport, and part of that involves investing in the Ebbw Vale rail link, and comprehensively rejected the suggestion of the Prime Minister that the UK Government should build an M4 over and above the heads of devolution, completely ignoring the democratic will of the people, and explicitly said that the public transport solution set out by the Welsh Government, through the South East Wales Transport Commission, was the right way ahead. So, I think the Welsh Conservatives should show a little humility in recognising that their own Government's report has rejected a call they've been loudly making in this Chamber, and I hope, together, we can move on and focus on public transport investment and looking at the UK Government playing its part in that.

At the weekend, I was contacted by a constituent who said, 'I took the train from Cardiff about 3.23 and arrived in Chester after midnight on a train that should've arrived at 6.23 p.m. Passengers and I think Transport for Wales were aware of the problem before we left Cardiff Central. This was 17 November.'

Last Monday, like Llyr, on the twenty-ninth, I pre-booked my ticket from Wrexham General down here, but I knew there were problems. I rang Transport for Wales, they confirmed my train had been cancelled but the next one was running as scheduled. When I arrived, myself and other passengers saw, on the overhead signage, right up until the time of arrival, that the train was on time. But, bang on the minute when the train was due, tannoy said, 'train cancelled'. We had to wait until another hour and a half for the next train in freezing cold weather, with the waiting room locked, because now Transport for Wales locks Wrexham waiting room from 6 p.m. The issue here is—I clearly understand that problems occur with track, and that has to be dealt with, but there was a failure of passenger care, a failure of passenger information, which could have prevented people having to stay on the platform for so long in such inclement circumstances. So, how can you propose to address that information issue, so that passengers are protected from similar situations occurring?

Well, I really am sorry to hear about that experience that the Member and his fellow passengers had, and that clearly isn't good enough. There are acute operational challenges being faced by Transport for Wales at the moment, and I think they need to reflect on his experience, and I will ask them to look into the circumstances in particular and take the point on board that he made, and the understanding he showed that when difficulties do occur, the communication is more important than at any other time. So, I think there are lessons to be learned from that, and I will speak to them and write to him about it.

Thank you. Our Transforming Towns programme continues to deliver our priorities for town centres, which include repurposing empty buildings, improving the diversity of services, increasing flexible living and work spaces, and creating more community green space. The programme has provided £136 million across Wales specifically for town centre regeneration. 

Deputy Minister, you may be aware that I recently joined the Minister for Climate Change for the official opening of the new Cynon Linc in Aberdare. Managed by Age Connects Morgannwg, and funded through the Welsh Government's integrated care fund, this has turned a tired community building into a modern, fit-for-purpose facility at the heart of the community, and in a prominent town-centre location. So, how else is the Welsh Government working with the public sector, specifically, and other stakeholders, to deliver schemes to regenerate our town centres?

Thank you. Yes, and I know the Minister enjoyed a visit to the Cynon Linc and was very impressed by the project and the work they'd done there to bring services together. And I think that does give us an example of the way we need to rethink town centres—not simply as shopping spaces, because the nature of retail has changed beyond recognition in the last 30 years, with out-of-town developments, with the growth of supermarkets and with the shift online. We need to think of town centres afresh as spaces where people meet and where services are provided.

We do have a 'town centre first' policy now for the provision of public services, and we encourage all service providers to look first as to whether or not a town-centre location can be provided, and I think that is the way forward. As I mentioned earlier, we've published reports in July this year, from Professor Karel Williams, into the future of town centres, and in September, Audit Wales published their own report that echoed many of the recommendations, and we have specifically asked the ministerial town centre taskforce to look at both of those. And involving the public sector and service providers to see town centres as a place where they do their business is one of the things that I'm asking them to look at.

We are actively working with all local authorities across Wales to improve green spaces through a number of initiatives, such as our Transforming Towns placemaking grant, supporting the Valleys regional park, funding local nature partnerships and our 'Building Better Places', which further encourages the creation of accessible green spaces.

I want to thank the Ministers for their commitment to enhancing green spaces across Wales. In Bridgend and Porthcawl, constituents from all ages and backgrounds express the need for more green spaces within their communities and to protect and enhance existing spaces. I recently received ideas from students at West Park Primary School, Porthcawl Primary School and Nottage Primary School for their dream park. A combination of nature and well-being were the overwhelming themes for so many of the pupils, with ideas including wild flowers for biodiversity, therapy gardens and tree planting. So, I also really welcome the £580,000 Welsh Government grant secured by Bridgend County Borough Council for the Cwm Taf nature network project, which will see so many spaces undergo improvement. And in light of the students' ideas, could I ask the Minister to ensure that both mental and physical well-being will be part of the ongoing strategies to enhance our green spaces?

Yes, indeed. The principles of sustainable management of natural resources puts multiple benefits, particularly mental and physical well-being, at the heart of any strategic plan to create or improve Wales's green spaces. In fact, as I think you know, Sarah, the Cwm Taf network project you mentioned is developing new practices for managing green spaces in the Cwm Taf health board region, in line with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, using the public services board's well-being plan—so, a really integrated plan that nicely matches the dream park that I hope will be a reality as a result. The plan identifies a connected network of 20 green spaces to be managed as a nature-based solution for improving the health and well-being of local residents. Highlights of the project include increasing access for parents with early years children, increasing access for older people, increasing access for partially sighted people and providing spaces for mindfulness. 

We're also delivering similar health and well-being objectives through the enabling natural resources and well-being scheme under way or about to start across Wales, and I'm really just delighted to hear about the enthusiasm and resource of the pupils there. One of the real pleasures of these jobs—there are many downsides, but one of the real pleasures—is meeting young people, listening to their hopes and dreams and actually knowing that you've got the ability to put some of those, at least, into practice. So, I very much welcome it, and I'm delighted that we'll be able to turn that dream park into a reality really soon.

Thank you. I have regular discussions with the economy Minister on how Business Wales can reflect the need to tackle the climate and nature emergencies. This morning, I met with him to discuss the results of the deep dive, which we published earlier this afternoon, into how we can deploy more renewable energy and the economic opportunities that flow from that, both for the supply chain, but also in capturing more wealth in Wales so that prosperity from our natural resources can be kept here in our communities.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. The Association of Chartered Certified Accountants recently surveyed small and medium enterprises in Wales on their plans to make themselves more environmentally sustainable. Small business owners said that the No. 1 issue holding businesses back from making their operations more sustainable was the lack of time and resources to implement environmental strategies. Company bosses also highlighted their own lack of expertise on where to start with sustainability plans, whilst reporting challenges in obtaining the right financial backing from traditional outlets. Deputy Minister, in light of these findings, will you undertake to discuss, with the Minister for Economy, ways to give SMEs in Wales the practical guidance and funding that they need to address this important issue? Thank you.

Well, I certainly recognise the challenges that small and medium-sized enterprises face to look beyond the short-term pressures of running a busy business in challenging times, and, of course, they've had particularly acute challenging times over the last two years. Of course, dealing with environmental sustainability is not even only the right thing to do, it is of short-term self-interest for businesses as well in terms of reducing costs from their energy output, as well as being in tune with their customers and the growing concern there is around climate change. Over the coming months, Business Wales will strengthen their outreach work with the micro and the SME community to help realise the benefits of operating differently, and they will focus on the key actions of the green growth pledge to ensure that they are aware of regulatory changes, good practice in product and service design and are connected with the support that is available to drive forward their green ambitions.

Finally, question 9, Sioned Williams.

Builders are responsible for ensuring that new homes comply with the building regulations. The Building Safety Bill will set out clear responsibilities for compliance and provide a means of redress where things go wrong.

Thank you, Minister. It's become apparent to me that there aren't adequate measures in place to tackle the huge problem that exists as some builders fail to complete housing estates to a satisfactory standard. In a number of cases, where someone buys a house under the mistaken impression that infrastructure such as pavements, streetlights and roads will be completed once all the houses in the estate have been built, they are being left to live in dangerous living conditions for years, if not forever. Local authorities say that they don't have the power to take action in this area, whilst the Welsh Government claims that it's a matter for local planning authorities, and this injustice is even worse in cases where management for building is outsourced to private companies. In these cases, the local planning authorities don't do any research or enforcement work when clearly deficient work is done. So, will the Welsh Government hold an inquiry into this issue in order to ensure that nobody has to live in unsafe conditions? Thank you.

Thank you, That's a mix of a couple of things. My colleague Hefin David has been talking about the issue of connecting estates and the estate management charges that sometimes are left with home owners as a result for quite some time. This continues to be a real problem, because it's something that's negotiated between the developer and the local authority, through either a highways agreement, a section—I forget; 328, I think it is, but don't quote me—one of the sections of the Highways Act 1980 that connects the highway together, or indeed a section 106 planning agreement, which puts obligations on the developers. Local authorities then often adopt those roads and take them over as part of their statutory network, but they don't have to do that, and it's a matter of negotiation between the local authority and the developer as to what, if any, connection is made to that estate.

We've already held a number of task and finish groups into both the issue about unadopted roads and uncompleted estates, and we've had a look at some of the outcomes of those. They are incredibly complex. Unadopted roads come in all shapes and sizes across Wales. Many house owners live on an unadopted road. I should declare an interest, Deputy Presiding Officer, and say I live on one myself and am very happy to do so. I don't want the road to be adopted by anybody and it's not causing a problem. Other householders live on unadopted roads and estates where they have to pay a management fee for that and there are very draconic terms and conditions when they buy those houses for what happens if you don't pay the fees. As I say, Hefin David has brought this to my attention on a number of occasions.

We are working very hard as part of our Building Safety Bill to put a series of very specific obligations on both constructors, developers and management companies for who will have responsibility for what going forward. That doesn't solve the problem of right now. We've been working very hard with local authorities to ensure that they do negotiate the 106 agreements so that the responsibility transfers and that the developer puts the right sort of what's called a commuted sum into the pot to pay for the ongoing maintenance of that, but there's no doubt that it's a problem, and it's an ongoing one. We are working very hard, and I'm very happy to discuss with any Member the problems with this. As I say, I've discussed them many times with Hefin David. We are working very hard with the UK Government at the moment on the leasehold reform Bill, but these houses fall between, so they are freehold houses, but they have almost leasehold-like provisions on the estate management. So, we hope that that will be part of the reform that we bring forward; if it isn't, then we will legislate here in Wales to do it.

Thank you, Minister and Deputy Minister.

The next item is the questions to the Minister for Education and Welsh Language, and the first question is from Sam Rowlands.

I have introduced the local infection control framework and supporting toolkit to support schools to introduce additional measures based on local community transmission; for example, in Gwynedd, we have recently increased the offer of testing for a limited period of time in response to local need. We're in constant dialogue with directors of education across Wales around a range of issues, including, at the moment, end-of-term arrangements. Because of our commitment to maintaining children's ability to learn in school, all local authorities across Wales are prioritising keeping their schools open until the end of term and planning on that basis. 

Thank you, Minister. It's pleasing to hear the engagement you're having with schools and with those directors of education in local authorities as well because, of course, pupils in Wales have, sadly, had less face-to-face time in schools than counterparts across the United Kingdom during the pandemic. And I'm sure you'd acknowledge that online learning—whilst it has its place, there is nothing quite like pupils coming together and the benefits that come from face-to-face learning, allowing teachers to provide proper observation and support. And, of course, this face-to-face interaction allows schools to support many of our, especially, younger learners with important developments, one of those being speech. And I noted your statement in the Chamber last month on children's oracy and reading, and your comments that, of course, speaking, listening and reading skills are fundamental to every aspect of our lives, and it's really welcome to hear those things being said. But I would like to just push a little further on this—and perhaps I do need to declare an interest, with having three children in primary school. But, Minister, what assessment have you made of the effects to children's speech that lost school time has caused? What conversations are you having with the Minister for Health and Social Services to improve the situation and make sure that access is available to those who may need that additional support?

Well, I thank the Member for that supplementary question. He is, of course, right to say that children learn best when they're in a classroom setting with their peers and with their teachers learning face to face. Of course, there have been times when that hasn't been possible and, of course, in certain part of Wales that remains challenging on a week-to-week basis at the moment. But it's everybody's intention across the entire education system in Wales to maximise the opportunities for children to be safely learning in classrooms with their peers, as I say. I think it is true to say that we have made significant progress in the difficult circumstances over the last 18 months to develop the remote learning and blended learning offer very substantially from where we were able to be at the start of the pandemic, naturally, but I think it probably goes without saying that that is not as satisfactory as being in school. 

He mentioned the statement that I made a number of weeks ago. I am in regular discussions with the health Minister in relation to that matter. It was based on our understanding that there had been challenges for younger pupils in particular around oracy and the early developmental stages, which motivated that statement being made. And you will see, over the course of the coming weeks, further developments in that area, which, hopefully, you'll be able to welcome. 

Everything, of course, should be done to prevent the loss of more school time, but, with the number of cases so high, there are practical problems in schools in ensuring that there are adequate numbers of staff available to keep classrooms open, and there is real concern, and very understandable concern, about transmission within schools. Staff and parents have been in touch with me expressing concerns about the effect of that on the ability of families to come together safely over Christmas. So, bearing in mind that the risk of the omicron variant is still being assessed, what is the Minister's message to those people who are very concerned and would favour moving to online learning, perhaps just for a few days, in the period in the run-up to Christmas?

The Member is right to say, of course, that the omicron situation means that we have to keep a very close watching brief on developments, and the Cabinet has met today and it will meet again tomorrow. We're looking at this daily, because the picture is changing and more data is being presented and evidence is emerging every day. So, it is very important during this period that we do everything that we can to ensure that we stick to the regulations that have been so important in terms of keeping us safe. I made a statement at the start of the month to ensure that we have a national approach in terms of wearing face masks in classrooms, as well as in other parts of the school premises, because we don't know the exact impact of omicron, so we want to ensure that we are taking great care in this period.

In terms of calls by some to look at the last few days of the term, some authorities do finish at the end of next week, and about nine or 10 finish closer to Christmas. And we've been discussing this with officials internally and authorities across Wales, including those that close later, closer to Christmas. And as I say, everyone is very eager to ensure that children can be in their classrooms. We'll see what comes in the wake of omicron, as I say. The situation isn't quite as straightforward as just saying that if children are not in the classroom, then that safeguards against transmission. There can be an impact on other public services and more broadly than that. And, of course, there is an impact on learning and it possibly doesn't take into consideration the fact that there is an opportunity for children to mix outside the classroom in any case. So, children have lost so much learning over the last year to 18 months, we want to ensure that they have every possible opportunity, including in those days. That's the situation at present, but, as I said, we're keeping this under a watching brief.

It is important that we have a comprehensive understanding of what is happening on the ground across all cohorts of learners. A review of attendance patterns is under way and I expect interim findings shortly, with the report in February of next year, and the findings of that review will help us inform the development of targeted policy interventions.

Thank you, Minister. I found one of the most significant statements in Estyn’s annual report was that nearly all school leaders have prioritised the well-being of their staff and pupils over their own. And I fully understand that headteachers and staff with safeguarding responsibilities are carrying a very heavy burden about the well-being of pupils, particularly those who have yet to return to school following the lockdown. And in some respects, schools feel they’re like the fourth emergency service, because while they have vulnerable children in front of them or at the front of their minds, most of the other support services that schools can normally draw on are actually still operating online and from home. So, they really are challenging situations that teachers are having to deal with. I think this is particularly true of those students who have yet to return to school. These are not children who are self-isolating, quite rightly; these are children who simply have not turned up in school and despite the best endeavours of schools, they are still absent. And we know—

Can you ask a question now, please?

—from the police that there's been a huge rise in domestic violence, a huge rise in the number of children being pulled into county lines or other forms of exploitation, which were exacerbated by lockdown. So, do you agree with me that, whilst numerically small, every unexplained absence from school, particularly if they've not been in school since lockdown, constitutes a major cause for concern for every pupil's well-being, and getting them back into school has to be a priority for all the agencies involved?

Well, I couldn't agree more with the Member on the first point that she made, which is that teaching and school staff have put the well-being of their learners very often ahead of their own. And I think I just want to put on the record again today my gratitude to the entire education workforce for the incredible efforts they’ve made over the last 18 months, but with, I think, particular recognition of how challenging the last term has been in our schools.

And the other point that she made that I want to underscore is that these are individuals and not just, as you acknowledged in your question, a question of numbers—each individual case is important. That’s why, actually, as well as looking at the patterns of attendance and non-attendance, I wanted to commission a piece of work to understand what's actually happening on the ground in terms of school leaders' views about why this is happening in particular.

And so, I’m hoping to be able to announce some particular support, before the end of this term, for pupils who have had a pattern of non-attendance and to support schools to engage more with those families. There is a particular issue in terms of those who are eligible for free school meals. There’s been a tendency for there to be lower attendance rates amongst those pupils. And there’s also an issue in relation to year 11 pupils, who have tended to be less likely to attend as well. So, those are two of the cohorts, but also the ones that she mentioned in her question. It is very important for us to understand individual circumstances and work with those families and learners.

Minister, my constituency is home to one of the most deprived communities in Wales and maybe even in the whole of the UK. Sadly, poverty is so often linked to poor educational achievement, and it can be a really vicious cycle, with children of poorly educated parents less likely to achieve a good education. As the Estyn report highlights, this will have been exacerbated by the pandemic, as home schooling will have been very challenging for those households. While Rhyl, thankfully, has good broadband coverage, poorer households may be unable to afford broadband or the devices needed to access online learning. Minister, will you join me in welcoming the Vodafone Great British Tech Appeal, which is asking us to donate our old devices, such as smartphones, tablets and laptops, which they can refurbish and supply to needy families, along with free data, calls and texts? Minister, will you commit to working with the likes of Vodafone to ensure that the scheme benefits families in the Vale of Clwyd and across Wales?

I certainly agree with him that we need to ensure that those families who are least able to afford access to broadband and the kind of computer equipment that many of us will take for granted are able to access that in order for those opportunities to be available to learners, regardless of their circumstances. In the last year, the Welsh Government has funded around £150 million-worth of both equipment and also connectivity to support exactly that kind of learner, to take full advantage of the blended learning and remote learning opportunities, which, unfortunately, we've had to be able to provide over the course of the last 18 months. I think that provides a very good platform for us, actually, in the future to enable that technology to become perhaps more mainstream in how we take forward learning in our schools, including in the new curriculum, to the advantage of all our learners, regardless of their circumstances.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Laura Anne Jones.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. Minister, you'll be aware of the awful case that occurred in Solihull in the west midlands, where six-year-old Arthur Hughes lost his life after a cruel and callous series of abuse. Despite concerns being raised, young Arthur's life was cut short, due to significant failings across the board. From an educational perspective, Minister, we are now acutely aware from the experience that we've had during the pandemic that school is for children far more than just education—it provides a very important, wider social role, with a safe place for children, ensuring that they get food and support. It's also somewhere that behaviours and physical abuse can be picked up. And as we've seen from Arthur's harrowing case, if he had been in school, potentially, this abuse could have been picked up sooner.

Parents are understandably concerned, Minister, about this harrowing case, and are looking to you and the Government now for reassurance that the robustness of safeguarding procedures in schools, and the standards for safeguarding for vulnerable children across Wales, are now being met. Minister, we also need to ensure that we have—

Can you ask the question now, please?

—additional training for teachers to identify potential signs of abuse. So, can you reassure us, Minister, today that lessons will be learnt from this case, including the severe impact that lockdowns and no school have on our children, particularly vulnerable children?

Well, can I first associate myself with her comments in relation to the tragic case of Arthur Labinjo-Hughes, which she started her question with, which is, I think, a very, very sad and very sobering lesson for all parts of the UK? All education settings in Wales have a legal duty to ensure that children have access to a safe learning environment, and I expect and understand, of course, across the system, that these responsibilities are taken seriously. The Welsh Government has issued statutory guidance, 'Keeping learners safe', to support schools in creating and maintaining a safe learning environment for children. Each school must identify a designated safeguarding person, who will ensure that staff, learners and parents feel confident that they can raise issues or concerns about the safety or well-being of learners, and that they will be taken seriously. And anyone in an education setting, employed by the local authority, must report to the authority where there is a reasonable cause to believe that a child is at risk of abuse, neglect or any other kind of harm. All authorities in Wales have a designated lead officer for safeguarding in education, and the Hwb hosts a series of e-learning modules, which have been developed by the Welsh Government, to support staff in education settings to understand those safeguarding responsibilities and how best to deploy them.

Thank you, Minister. Minister, the Estyn report released earlier this week is quite damning, I'm sure you'll agree. It was hard enough when we were at school, socially, but now for young people they have far more to cope with, with the added pressures of phones and social media, and it makes me glad not to be in school anymore, but, as a parent, it does worry me daily.

The Estyn report that has just been released is hugely distressing and has highlighted the tragic situation that students find themselves in with a prevalence of peer-on-peer sexual harassment in schools. With it being reported that children as young as 11 are being pressurised for explicit pictures, with the incidence of sexual harassment in schools going up, and the increase in the number of people not reporting it going up, serious questions have to be asked, Minister, and of this Government's abject failure to tackle this. These findings are nothing new, but they are getting worse. So, why don't young people feel that they can report it? We need proactive measures in place, Minister, across all schools in Wales to ensure that instances such as these are dealt with with respect, and that our young people can feel that they've been listened to, as well as to drive out these behaviours in schools through our new curriculum in the future. What urgent action are you taking now, Minister, to address this, so that young people who experience abuse of this kind right now are getting the help that they need?

I agree with the Member about how serious the matter is, and I agree with her that the Estyn report makes very distressing reading indeed, and I want to thank all children and young people who took part in that report. It will not have been an easy thing for them to do, but their doing so is brave, and they've, in those honest conversations, enabled us to understand better the situation in many of our schools. The report makes a number of recommendations of which three fall to the Welsh Government, and we will be accepting each of the recommendations. I was pleased to have commissioned this report, because I recognised that we needed to understand better the situation on the ground. I wouldn't agree with her characterisation of the Government's position; I think the Government has acted throughout expeditiously and in a very full way. And she will recall the discussion we had at the point when I commissioned the report, which listed the work already under way at that point, both in working with our schools, working with our local education authorities, and providing additional resources to support our schools. 

One of the key findings in the Estyn report in relation to the Welsh Government's responsibilities relates to the new relationships and sexuality education code, and encourages the Government to take full account of the Estyn report in designing and devising that code, which I can confirm that we have. The Chamber will have an opportunity to consider this, of course, next week. But one of the points I want to make absolutely clear is that we can't, as it were, simply rely on the new curriculum, which will be rolled out over many years, to be the solution here. I want to make sure that the thinking and the learning and the resources, which are available as part of the RSE code in the new curriculum, also help us in the existing curriculum, as that will be with us for some time. So, there is already work under way in that space. 

Finally, in relation to the recommendation around capturing data about bullying and harassment in schools, we're already looking at what we can do to amend our anti-bullying and harassment guidelines to take account of what Estyn recommends today. 

Thank you, Minister. Questions have already been asked on this today, but I would like to press you further, if I may, on whether schools are going to close early for the Christmas break. Some schools are preparing by having their Christmas activities this week rather than next week; some schools have said they're going to close; some schools have said they're definitely not going to close. It's different all over Wales. Surely there needs to be an all-Wales approach to this, Minister? And we need some sort of clarity today, because parents need to prepare childcare, teachers need to prepare lessons. It's absolutely urgent that you give a line on this as soon as possible on what is happening. I understand that these are fine margins, and it's a difficult decision to make, but this has to come to a head now, Minister. We need to know today or by Friday what's happening so that people can prepare. Please, can you outline what you're doing today?

Well, I don't think that the Member asserting a lack of clarity when I've spelled out the position a few moments ago is especially helpful, if I can put it like that. As I've said—[Interruption.] As I've said, as a consequence of the variant, we are all looking across Government at what actions need to be taken on a daily basis. I know that she shares with me the importance of making sure that children can remain in school as far as possible, as long as possible and as safely as possible. I know that she shares that view. The consequence of that is that right across the 10 authorities that will be going beyond the end of next week, that is time that has been planned in for teaching to take account of the lost teaching time so far. So, those authorities, authorities right across Wales, and the Welsh Government, share that ambition of making sure that young people can remain in class doing that. And that is the basis upon which we are planning now. 

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Cefin Campbell. 

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Yesterday, I met with the committee of Cardiff University Welsh Students' Union, which have been campaigning for many years to have a full-time sabbatical Welsh language officer within the union. Swansea, Bangor and Aberystwyth universities have had similar positions in place for many years, but here in Cardiff, where there are over 3,000 Welsh speakers and Welsh learners—the highest number of Welsh speakers in any of our universities—there is no sabbatical position. According to the president of the Welsh student union, such an officer could provide important services to students through the medium of Welsh, arrange events to raise awareness of the language, ensure that the voice of Welsh speakers could be heard within the union, and also provide a space for young people to come together to use the language on a social level. It also ensures that democracy is respected because the students had voted more than once in the past in favour of having this kind of sabbatical officer. So, does the Minister agree with me that it is about time that Welsh students were given fair play here in the university of our capital city, and would he be willing to write to the board of trustees, who will meet next Thursday apparently, in order to support the Welsh students' campaign?

I thank the Member for that important question. In a university that has the highest number of Welsh speakers of all the Welsh universities, it is appropriate that students have employed representation in the union, and that would correspond to the representation that we see in other universities in Wales, as the Member mentioned in his contribution. This is a matter for the union's board of trustees. However, if the motion to establish a full-time post for the Welsh language is passed unanimously, as I understand it has been, it would be reasonable to expect that that decision is realised. 

Thank you very much. With the new curriculum in the pipeline, and the target to reach a million Welsh speakers by 2050 and the Welsh education Bill on the horizon, it's clear that there are major changes afoot in the education sector in terms of Welsh-medium provision. As we've already heard you mention in the Chamber, Minister, children have lost out on a great deal of their education during the pandemic, and parents have had to play a more central role in their education as a result of that. In order to promote the use of the Welsh language during the pandemic, which, unfortunately, is ongoing, and through then until 2050, we will need to ensure that parents have the right skills to ensure that children are able to make the best use of the Welsh language at home. So, I would like to ask you what specific support will be provided to parents to enable them to play their part in supporting Welsh-medium education and in promoting the use of the Welsh language at home?

This is a very important question, and, in a variety of ways, the Government is already providing support. One of the priorities that we have is ensuring that Welsh language transmission happens at home. And that is more of a challenge than we'd hoped and expected. So, specific support is available in that context. Also, as you know, in terms of the early years, we have a variety of schemes supporting parents to speak Welsh with their children and, when we have non-Welsh speaking parents, to ensure that they have access and opportunities to be involved and have experience of cylchoedd meithrin and so forth through the medium of Welsh. So, a variety of things are already in the pipeline. 

But what we've also seen is access across Wales to online courses from the National Centre for Learning Welsh. Those figures have increased significantly, and the provision has been broadened as well in the wake of that. So, as the question suggests, we have lessons that we can learn for the future in terms of what we've seen over the last year to 18 months, to see how we can expand the provision further. 

Thank you very much. Over the summer, the culture committee, which is responsible for the Welsh language, among other things, consulted on what its priorities should be for the sixth Senedd. One of those priorities was to recognise that schoolchildren during the pandemic had faced extended periods away from school, as I mentioned in my previous question, and, as a result of that, their education has suffered. Because of the problem in terms of the Welsh language specifically, there was little interaction between children and their parents in terms of the use of the Welsh language, particularly those children from non-Welsh-speaking households. So, following calls for further investment in the late immersion provision in Welsh, there was an announcement made by the Government on a proposal of £2.2 million to expand that provision and that was warmly welcomed, certainly by us here in Plaid Cymru. So, I would like to ask the Minister how this funding has been used, and what impact it has had on education recovery, particularly Welsh-medium education. Also, in looking to the future, what further plans does the Minister have to support the Welsh language through education recovery programmes?

In terms of investing to support those who had missed opportunities to use the Welsh language, perhaps where Welsh is not used in the home, an element of the recovery funding announced for next year has been prioritised for learners and Welsh speakers in order to ensure that further support is available to them to start speaking Welsh again. So, that funding stream is already in place to ensure further support for pupils.

In terms of the immersion funding, we had bids from all parts of Wales for that funding, and it's being used in new areas to expand and create provision that hasn't existed previously, or hasn't been there for many years. In other parts of Wales, it is being used to extend what is already provided, and in authorities where they haven't quite reached the point on their linguistic journey where providing immersion works for them, they intend to use that funding to develop skills and expertise to move further along that journey. I'm very passionate about what we can do to ensure access for all children across Wales who require it, and I hope to be able to persuade the finance Minister as regards ensuring that the investment can continue in the years to come.

I have mandated net-zero carbon under the new banner of 'sustainable communities for learning' for the twenty-first century schools and colleges investment programme from 1 January next year. All new–build, major refurbishment and extension projects will need to demonstrate delivery of net-zero carbon in operation plus a 20 per cent reduction on the amount of embodied carbon.

Diolch, and I want to say a huge thank you to the Minister for his commitment to ensuring that net zero is a priority for our twenty-first century schools. It's an absolutely fantastic development commitment. As our climate change Minister said earlier, it is a wonderful part of our roles to be able to speak to pupils of all ages across our constituencies, and I'm constantly inspired by how much they care about protecting our environment and are just so committed to doing so. A great example of this is that, in my constituency of Bridgend, as of this year, Litchard Primary School have had solar panels installed to become more efficient and consume less energy, and pupils and staff on their eco-committee have been at the forefront of managing the energy-saving measures. So, therefore, could I ask you, Minister, whether you would be able to visit Litchard Primary School and the eco-committee so that they can ask you about other ideas that they have, and show you what they've been doing and talking about how Welsh Government can further support them in their efforts to meet their ambitious environmental leader ambitions?

I would certainly be happy to do that and I thank the Member for bringing that important point to the Chamber. I was listening to her exchange with the climate change Minister earlier, and I think it is really inspiring, looking at the kind of scale of some of the challenges that lie ahead of us, to see how far ahead many of our younger pupils are, maybe than even some of us who've reflected for longer periods of time on these questions from a policy point of view, if I can put it like that.

I think there's an opportunity for us here as well to make sure that, in the new curriculum, with its emphasis on making sure our children and young people are ethically informed citizens, with that focus on sustainability, we do everything we can to listen to their voices in how we design both the curriculum and also the education infrastructure through which the curriculum is delivered. I remember as well the fantastic visit I made with her to Nottage primary in her constituency, and seeing the excitement of the young children there about these issues was very inspiring as well.

Minister, since you will be in Bridgend, I would recommend you also to see a school in my ward, Pen-y-fai. Minister, it is relatively straightforward to set targets for our new school and college buildings, and ensuring that they contribute to our net-zero carbon target is not something that ought to cause many problems. The bigger challenge is that many of our school buildings were built in the late Victorian and early Edwardian period—impressive, solid, red-brick buildings that are likely to be more problematic as we move away from gas heating. What assessment has he undertaken of the budget that will need to be allocated for these schools to meet our obligation? Thank you. 

I thank the Member for the question. I think the scale of the challenge that lies ahead of us, and which I think we're all aware of, means that we need to make every contribution we can. So, I do think that the sustainable communities for learning programme in the future will make a significant contribution, certainly in the area of new build and major refurbishment and extension projects, and the criteria for the first wave will become progressively more taxing, if I can put it like that, as the Welsh Government's own targets become more stringent in the years ahead, taking us on our path to a net-zero Wales. But he is right to say, of course, that we need to make sure that all our public estate makes a contribution to that target as well. He will probably have noted, when the First Minister and the Minister for Climate Change made their announcements in the week before COP, that part of the objective there is to understand better the state of play and the state of condition for the education stock across Wales, and to understand in detail what needs to be done in order to make sure, as far as we can, that they make their contribution as well to our net-zero targets. It is not straightforward, it is certainly not short term, and it will have a significant funding challenge attached to it, because many of the new technologies require not simply the installation of an air-source heat pump, for example, but significant insulation challenges, and also distribution challenges. So, that work will be commencing with our partners, and then we will have a better understanding of what we need to do in order to take forward our ambition right across the education stock.

The local infection control decision framework sets out actions schools should take to reduce transmission of COVID-19. While we learn more about omicron, staff in all education settings and secondary-aged learners and above should now wear face coverings in classrooms and in communal areas.

Minister, with so many teaching staff self-isolating, it has become a real struggle to maintain even the status quo in schools, let alone providing the enhanced provision for those who fell behind during the pandemic. With PISA results as low as they are—the lowest in the UK, and on a par with ex-Soviet bloc countries—it has become very apparent that our children can't miss out on any more education. So, a ready supply of teachers and teaching assistants is absolutely necessary to address the pressures that COVID presents. Minister, what are you doing to help schools mitigate the shortage of supply teachers in Wales, and do you think there needs to be an overhaul of the supply teacher system? How are you encouraging more people into the profession, and utilising the teaching assistants to ease pressures? 

The Member knows very well that we think there needs to be reform of the supply teacher system, because it was a programme for government commitment on which we were elected, and also it features in the agreement that we have with Plaid Cymru, to look again at the supply model in order to bring fair work and sustainability to the heart of it. That work has been progressing and will now progress further with Plaid Cymru. I'm very excited to see what we can deliver together in relation to that. 

In relation to the other challenges, she is right to say that it's not simply a funding question; it is an availability of supply staff question. That has been a significant challenge in a number of our schools. It's a variable picture across Wales, but it is absolutely a challenge in many schools. One of the sources of supply teachers each year is newly qualified teachers. This year, because of the fact that we have ensured that, I think, 400 newly qualified teachers have placements in schools, that has meant that those aren't available to the pool of potential supply teachers. But, what it has meant is that they are in fact teaching in our schools. So, I think it's a slightly more complex picture than perhaps her question presents.

Certainly, where it is a funding challenge, and that is obviously still a question for schools, we have committed as a Government that schools are able to claim against the local government hardship fund until the need expires, if I can put it like that, so that they can be supported to access supply whenever they need it and can find it. And we have also been working with local education authorities to see what we can do in terms of longer term planning to give us a slightly better understanding of needs ahead, which might help as well in making sure there's enough supply teachers available. And in certain parts of Wales, incentives have been provided where there's a particular acute shortage to encourage people back into supply teaching, to see if we can address some of the needs through that route as well.

Powys has benefited from a £79.5 million investment during the first wave of the twenty-first century schools and colleges programme, and a further £113.5 million is planned during the current wave of investment.

Thank you for your answer, Minister. Of course, in rural areas of Wales such as Powys, whilst the twenty-first century schools funding has been used for new school builds, many older school buildings are being retained due to their geography or for rurality reasons. I heard the responses, Minister, to the earlier questions today, but can I ask you how you envisage twenty-first century schools funding particularly supporting school extensions or refurbishment of existing school buildings to support schools becoming carbon neutral, particularly in the context of the challenges of meeting the Building Research Establishment's environmental assessment method standards? You do seem to be in a generous mood today, Minister, so you also have an invite from me to visit a school in Powys with the cabinet member and officials to discuss this particular matter in more detail.

One of the joys of the role is the opportunity to visit schools in all parts of Wales, so I'm obviously very happy to do that. The Member makes a point about the availability of the existing twenty-first century schools and colleges programme for non-new build, if I can put it like that. It is of course available for major refurbishment and extension projects, and in fact those projects will themselves need to be net zero from 1 January 2022. But it's also the case that that programme isn't the only means by which school buildings are refurbished and capital invested in our school estate; it's also available through local government funding more directly for smaller scale work. I'm sure he'll be interested to know that over 450 schools have benefited from the small and rural schools grant to date, and in addition, a number of small and rural schools have received capital funding from the reducing infant class sizes grant, and indeed also from the twenty-first century schools and colleges programme. 

The pupil level annual school census as well as the Welsh in education strategic plans provide us with a comprehensive picture of Welsh-medium provision across Wales. Together, they contribute to policy and funding decisions that move us closer to our 'Cymraeg 2050' target. 

Thank you, Minister. The co-operation agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Government commits to ensure that the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol and the National Centre for Learning Welsh are given additional funding in order to increase the number of apprenticeships and FE education available through the medium of Welsh, and to provide free Welsh lessons for young people between 16 and 25 years of age. This commitment is something that Plaid Cymru, along with Cymdeithas yr Iaith and other language campaigners, have been calling for for some time, and, if implemented effectively, it'll be an important step forward towards providing a fundamental right for everyone in Wales, including our children and young people, to receive Welsh-medium education and to have the ability to speak the language confidently and fluently. Can the Minister reveal how much additional funding is to be provided, and will the Minister also outline the steps that the Government will take to implement this policy, and also provide a timetable in terms of delivery? Thank you.

I agree entirely about how important it is to provide free lessons for those up to the age of 25, and expand the role of the coleg Cymraeg and the national centre. Those were also part of the work programme for 'Cymraeg 2050' that I stated over the summer, and so we do agree about how important that is. In terms of further funding, of course, the coleg Cymraeg has had an increase in its budget to expand the exact kind of provision that the Member talks about in her question. It is genuinely important that we increase the provision post 16 through the medium of Welsh. The Bill that's going through the Senedd at present does create the context for that, but we also need the investment to ensure that that does happen on the ground. So, we do agree on that. What the exact sums will be, we'll have to wait for the statement by the Minister for finance in about a week to 10 days' time.  

Through Welsh Government grant support, Mudiad Meithrin maintains and supports Ti a Fi provision across Wales. In addition, through our programme of extending provision, cylchoedd Ti a Fi are being established to support the development of new cylchoedd meithrin.

Can I thank the Minister for that response? If the intention to reach a million Welsh speakers is going to be met, then getting more children being educated through the medium of Welsh is the best and easiest way of doing so. Does the Minister accept that Ti a Fi is the first step to learning Welsh for many children, especially those who come from English-speaking backgrounds? What further support can the Welsh Government provide to Ti a Fi and Mudiad Meithrin? And as everybody else is throwing out invitations, can I invite you to visit a Ti a Fi and Mudiad Meithrin within Swansea East?  

I will be delighted to do that. I'm going to struggle to find time for anything else, I think, at the end of this session today, but I certainly will.

I agree with the Member. The cylchoedd Ti a Fi are a very important step on the journey to Welsh-medium education. They do provide an opportunity for young children to socialise and play through the medium of Welsh, and also an opportunity for parents to meet to share experiences and socialise in a Welsh environment. In Swansea, at the start of the last academic year, 208 children had been registered in cylchoedd meithrin, and nearly half of those had been in cylchoedd Ti a Fi before that, and about 77 per cent of children moved from those cylchoedd meithrin into Welsh-medium education. So, it's evident that this is a very important part of increasing provision and increasing demand, which is an important element of that. It's more than just meeting demand; it's about driving more demand. Ti a Fi provision has been affected seriously by COVID-19, but, this year, Mudiad Meithrin is putting a particular emphasis on restarting Ti a Fi provision, employing more officials to facilitate this. And through the Welsh Government's support, Mudiad Meithrin has set a target to reopen more than 300 cylchoedd Ti a Fi in order to reach the provision levels that existed before the pandemic. 

Over 460 schools have benefited from the small and rural schools grant, with funding of over £10 million in the previous Senedd term and £2.5 million in this financial year. In addition, a number of small and rural schools have received capital funding from the reducing infant class sizes grant and the twenty-first century schools and colleges programme.

Diolch, Weinidog. Minister, the UK Government has given Wales vast sums of extra funding over the past 20 months throughout the COVID pandemic. Recently, the UK Government announced a further £2.5 billion, down the M4 from Westminster to Cardiff Bay. At the same time, my council in Powys is restructuring and closing rural schools due to the fact that they can't afford to keep them open. So, Minister, will you ensure in the budget that rural schools have additional moneys to ensure that the rural schools in my constituency of Brecon and Radnorshire can stay open? Diolch.  

I thank the Member for that question. I don't accept the premise of the question that Wales has been given this money by the UK Government. There are taxpayers in Wales who've contributed to that resource as well, and we're perfectly entitled to our share of the overall UK-wide fund. On the point that he makes about small and rural schools' funds in particular, he will know, of course, that the funding of individual schools is ultimately allocated by local authorities, but he will have my assurance that I'm doing all that I can, as I always have, to make sure that schools in Wales have all the funds that they need in order to continue to provide the excellent education that they do to our learners.

And finally, question 9, Peter Fox. 

The Curriculum for Wales will be rolled out from September 2022. Schools and settings across Wales continue to progress in line with national expectations, drawing on national and regional support and professional learning. This is backed up by £7.24 million to support schools' curriculum development in this financial year.

Thank you, Minister, for that response. Minister, as I'm sure you are aware, I am very passionate about the need to strengthen the food system in Wales and to unlock socioeconomic benefits that being able to access good diet can bring. An important part of this campaign is to ensure that people are equipped with the skills and knowledge that they need to reduce the reliance on things like fast food and to help people use good-quality local produce. The old curriculum did introduce some of these issues to learners, and previous Welsh Governments did provide guidance on how food and health should be taught, but there was also the perception that food education in our schools could be strengthened and integrated throughout different areas of learning. Therefore, Minister, what consideration has the Government given to ensuring that food education is firmly part of the new curriculum, in particular through the health and well-being area of learning and experience, and how will you support schools to implement this? Diolch.

He is right that the new curriculum does have this at its heart, and I'm sure that he, in visiting his local schools, as I do in schools right across Wales, sees the potential that learning about food—where it comes from, how to prepare it, how to eat healthily—meets a number of the objectives of the new curriculum. I am often struck, in going to schools where food is a significant part of the life of the school, how creatively that is used for all aspects of the curriculum. We will be continuing to support that into the new curriculum and taking advantage of the extended and expanded opportunities to make sure that our learners have an understanding of the importance of healthy eating and the contribution that food makes to that. We will be including that in the resources that we help develop over the course of the next year and beyond.

Thank you, Minister.

The next item this afternoon is topical questions. I call on Jane Dodds.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Thank you for allowing me to ask this question today.

I raised yesterday the deeply upsetting case of Arthur Labinjo-Hughes, who died in Solihull—[Interruption.] I'm sorry.

You need to ask the topical question on the paper first.

I do apologise. Sorry. 

Could I ask the Deputy Minister what steps are being taken to address recruitment challenges in child protection services and to ensure that partner agencies are properly equipped to identify possible safeguarding issues? Can I then give the background—

No. The Minister will answer that bit and then you can come back to it. 

I do apologise.

Thank you very much. In terms of the workforce, I'm sure that the Member is aware that there is extensive training for the social care workforce in Wales. The Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 introduced strengthened and robust safeguarding arrangements for Wales. It established a national independent safeguarding board, and regional safeguarding children boards, to support evidence-based safeguarding practice across agencies and across Wales. These arrangements are now well established. Statutory guidance has been issued under the Act, and we do have consistent evidence-based safeguarding practice across agencies and across Wales, with opportunities for practitioners to update their skills.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I raised, yesterday, the very upsetting case of Arthur Labinjo-Hughes, an eight-year-old boy in Solihull, who was subjected to months of physical abuse by his father and his partner. As I said yesterday, we must not forget that they were the people who killed him. And services, as we know, are being reviewed and we're unclear of any outcomes from that.

But child protection and safeguarding has been particularly challenging during COVID-19, especially during the early lockdown period. As you'll know, Deputy Minister, the number of children in receipt of edge-of-care support on the child protection register and looked-after children has increased in recent years, at a time when local authorities are facing significant staffing challenges. I'm aware that the Government issued new all-Wales practice guidelines in July 2020 for all practitioners working with children under the age of 18.

So, may I also just finish—just thinking about any potential future COVID restrictions and some current ones on entering people's homes, what steps will you be taking to ensure that greater face-to-face contact can be maintained with those children and families who require that additional support? And may I also ask whether the Welsh Government is knowledgeable about the number of child protection vacancies in front-line posts across Wales? Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch. Thank you very much for those very important questions. We will do all that we can to ensure that there is face-to-face contact with children and with families in another potential lockdown. During the previous lockdown period, we are aware that there was not face-to-face contact with many families, although it did continue with some families. Sadly, the position, really, is that we can never be sure about—. It's unlikely that we will ever end the abuse of children by those who care for them and keep them safe, but we can do everything possible to ensure that practitioners can identify children at risk of abuse and understand their duty to report children at risk and that they're equipped with the skills and knowledge to investigate and to respond to concerns that a child is at risk of harm. And I think we do depend, in periods such as lockdown periods, even more on the ears and voices of people in the community, because, inevitably, some of the safeguards such as going to school are not there.

So, it has been a very difficult period for children and their families. The Government has done all it possibly can to help; we have certainly put additional money into the local authorities. In addition to the revenue support grant, we've given generous funding from the hardship fund to local government to help support social care, and we've also recently put in £40 million of recovery funding and an additional £42 million for the winter system and other pressures, again for the social care workforce. We've also put in money for a family intervention fund to support child and family well-being through a mixture of practical and direct support. So, we are putting funding in and the support to social workers continues. But obviously, in any lockdown period, this is a very difficult time for all families.

I'm grateful to the Minister for her answers. One of the issues that has been troubling me for some time, as we've come through this pandemic, has been the disappearance of children from education, and the significant increase in the number of children being educated from home. We know from tragic history that, when children are taken into the home to be educated, we can lose contact with those children and that some terrible things can and have happened to children in those circumstances. Would the Government, both the social services department and the education department, consider an investigation into the growth of elective home education, and consider how contact can be maintained with children who are being educated at home, and also review the law governing home education? I have very, very significant concerns that the growth of home education is going to lead to a growth of abuse and the potential for further tragedies in future. 

I thank Alun Davies for that very important question, and this is an issue that I have worked on closely—and am working on closely—with the Minister for education, because, obviously, it's an issue that concerns both departments. We are developing proposals that will further strengthen the existing framework around elective home education to help ensure that children who are educated at home do get a suitable education to begin with and that their well-being needs are met. So, we are developing a framework, and the proposals that we have include new statutory guidance for local authorities and a wider package of support for home-educated children to enhance the learning experience and development opportunities, and, also, a handbook that will help and give information to home educators. 

This year, we've made £1.7 million of funding available to support local authorities with administrative costs relating to home education, as well as to fund education resources and activities for home-educated learners. This is a unique fund to Wales, and I think that does answer his questions about having contact with children who are educated at home and who wish to make wider contact outside of the home. So, the Minister for education will be taking forward the proposals for the new statutory guidance in due course, but it is an issue that I'm working on very closely with him.

I note in Estyn's annual report that Ceredigion had very interesting outreach work with home-educated students, which enabled a lot of those children to be reintegrated into schools.

I'm very pleased that you're giving additional money to family support services for this really, really difficult subject, but I also just wanted to highlight the fact that Arthur Labinjo-Hughes was not in school at all, and that on the day before he was killed he was taken to the hairdressers by the woman who killed him, where he was made to stand with his face to the wall for up to seven hours. Therefore, I agree with you: it is up to the ears and eyes of the community to identify and speak out when child cruelty is obviously taking place, such as in that situation, because, at the end of the day, family support services, would you agree, cannot be everywhere all of the time? It is everybody's duty to speak up for children's rights.

Absolutely right, the community have to be the eyes and ears, because it is not possible for social services officers and departments to be there and to see everything. So, it is incumbent on all of us, if we see something we're concerned about, to act on it.

Obviously, the review that has been set up by the UK Government will come forward with proposals, I'm sure, and we will look very closely at what those proposals are and see how they will help us in Wales. It is a very wide-ranging review, and for the Member's information it's led jointly by the Office for Standards in Education, Children's Services and Skills; the Care Quality Commission; Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue Services; and HM Inspectorate of Probation. So, it's looking at all of this wide range of agencies. We will look very closely at the result, but, yes, it's all of our duties to look out for any concerns and to follow up on any concerns that we may have.  

Thank you, Deputy Minister.

The next item is the 90-second statements, and I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I would like to pay tribute this afternoon to all of the staff in general practices in Dwyfor Meirionnydd and beyond for their tireless work in delivering the vaccine to thousands and thousands of people in Wales. These dedicated medical workers are the ones keeping us all safe, and our debt to them is a great one.

I would like to congratulate specifically one of the local surgeries in Dwyfor Meirionnydd for its heroic exploits over the last weekend, namely Tŷ Doctor in Nefyn. Tŷ Doctor in Nefyn was the first to deliver the Pfizer vaccine, which meant that people in rural communities could have this special vaccine. And the Tŷ Doctor surgery managed to deliver nearly 4,000 vaccines in a single weekend, which means that they have now vaccinated up to 20,000 people since the start of the year. This surgery on the Llŷn peninsula has taken a leading role in vaccinating local people since the very beginning. The doctors, nurses, staff, and the army of volunteers—everyone took a full part in this.

According to Dr Eilir Hughes, people from all over north Wales came to be vaccinated in Tŷ Doctor in Nefyn. Some came for the first time, some came for the second dose, and several came to get their booster. But the encouraging thing is that many of those who came to the surgery over the weekend were young people.

The vaccine is the best tool that we have to tackle this terrible infection that has killed so many people. I give my sincere thanks, therefore, to the doctors of Dwyfor Meirionnydd and doctors across Wales for their peerless efforts in distributing the vaccine effectively in our communities and keeping us all safe.

We will now suspend proceedings to allow changeovers in the Chamber. If you're leaving the Chamber, please do so promptly. The bell will be rung two minutes before proceedings restart. Any Members arriving after the changeover should wait until then before entering the Chamber.

Item 5 is the next item, and it's the debate on the petition on new laws to protect rare red squirrels from habitat loss, which causes population decline. I call on the Chair of the Petitions Committee, Jack Sargeant.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, thank you for the opportunity to introduce this important debate.

This petition was introduced by Craig Shuttleworth in June and reached 10,000 signatures before the end of July. Llywydd, that tells me that a lot of people in Wales, and across the world, love red squirrels. And while it isn't the focus of today’s debate, I do wish to mention petition P-06-1225, 'Make Natural Resources Wales undertake and publish annual wildlife surveys before felling woodland'. This raises wider issues about how we can protect woodland habitats for all the creatures that live there.

The red squirrel was once common throughout the UK, but they have disappeared from many areas. You can however still see them in three main areas of Wales: on Anglesey, in the Clocaenog Forest in north Wales, and in Clywedog in mid Wales. According to the Wildlife Trusts, in about 150 years red squirrels have declined from around 3.5 million to 140,000 in the UK. The main threat to the species has come from the introduction of the grey squirrel, brought over from North America in the 1870s. A larger, faster-breeding squirrel, it competes for sources of food, making life harder for the red squirrel. It can also carry squirrel pox virus, also known as parapox, which is harmless to grey squirrels, but fatal to red squirrels. Llywydd, red squirrels are also threatened by domestic cats and dogs, roads and habitat losses and fragmentation. In 2020, the Mammal Society released an official red list for British mammals, highlighting the species most at risk. The red squirrel is classified as 'endangered' and is one of the 19 species considered at risk of extinction in Britain. At an international level, it is on the International Union for Conservation of Nature's red list of threatened species.

Red squirrels are a priority species under the UK post-2010 biodiversity framework. They are protected under Schedules 5 and 6 to the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, as amended. Under the Act, it is an offence to kill, injure or take a red squirrel, or to damage, destroy or obstruct access to a drey or any other structure or place that a red squirrel uses for shelter or protection. It is also an offence to disturb a red squirrel when it is occupying a structure or place for protection. This protection does not apply to areas where red squirrels only feed. Activities for social, economic and environmental reasons that might affect red squirrels can be licensed.

The petition we are debating today is calling on the Government to go further than the protections that already exist. It is asking this Senedd to do more to protect red squirrels. Specifically, it is asking that habitat loss be included in the consideration of felling licences, and that state-owned forests, which don’t require a licence, should have to annually assess the cumulative impact of felling on the red squirrel population. We know that this Government puts climate change and nature at the heart of its decision making. Earlier this year, in June 2021, this Senedd declared a nature emergency. So the question is, today. about that nature emergency: how can we protect the populations of red squirrels we have? But even further, how can we reverse the historic decline?

Llywydd, I very much look forward to the Minister's response this afternoon. I look forward to Members' contributions across the Chamber, and I'm very much looking forward to the contribution from the Senedd's own very red squirrel—the bright and bushy-tailed Darren Millar. Diolch yn fawr.

I couldn't have called him better. Darren Millar. [Laughter.]

Diolch, Llywydd. And as the red squirrel species champion in the Senedd, I'm absolutely delighted to see that this debate has been brought forward by the Petitions Committee. And before I go any further, I must declare an interest in this debate as the honorary member of the Red Squirrels Trust Wales and indeed a member of the Clocaenog Red Squirrels Trust as well. And I want to pay tribute to the incredible work of the lead petitioner, Dr Craig Shuttleworth, for organising the petition, and the incredible work that he does, day in, day out, in leading red squirrel conservation efforts across the country. He's not alone, of course—there are the Red Squirrels Trust, the Clocaenog Red Squirrels Trust, the Welsh Mountain Zoo and a whole army of others, including many volunteers, who give their time, effort and resources fighting for these super furry animals.

Since being appointed as the red squirrel champion back in 2016, it's been an absolute thrill to get to know more about this unique and iconic species and to visit many of the projects across Wales and to learn about the efforts being made to boost the fortunes of the red squirrel population and to revive it. For over 10,000 years, the red squirrel population was the dominant population here in Wales of squirrels. And not only that, it populated the vast majority of the British Isles. But we know from what has already been shared today that that population dwindled significantly, and as late as the 1990s there were just a few hundred red squirrels scattered across Wales in small population pockets, which were at risk. But it was at that time, before the turn of the millennium, that heroic conservation efforts to revive the species began. And thanks to these efforts, I'm proud to say that in my own constituency the Clocaenog forest now has a sustainable small, but growing red squirrel population. In mid Wales, the Vincent Wildlife Trust released pine martens, a predator to grey squirrels, and that project has, so far, also proved successful in boosting the population numbers there.

But the biggest triumph, in my opinion, for any conservation effort of any animal in Wales, has been on the island of Anglesey. Because, thanks to its status as an island, an ambitious plan to remove grey squirrels was hatched, and, by 2015, it was announced that Anglesey was a grey squirrel-free zone. But all these efforts, they've been undermined, and they've been undermined due to outdated forestry legislation, which pays no regard to at-risk wildlife populations. How can it be that while it's illegal to kill or injure a red squirrel or disturb a red squirrel in its drey or nest—how can it be that a forest containing them is not protected and can be chopped down? Yet that, unfortunately, is the current state of affairs, as far as the law is concerned, here in Wales. Because while a felling licence is required to harvest timber or fell trees in private woodland in Wales, it's a scandal that such licences cannot be refused if they cause habitat loss and red squirrel population decline. And, of course, Government-owned forests, they do not require a licence, but they are managed under 10-year plans. Regrettably, there is no obligation whatsoever to update or refresh those plans to take note of the actual squirrel population on an annual basis and where it's nesting within those forests. And as a result of that, we now face an incredible challenge of seeing in parts of Wales trees being felled, or planned to be felled, which could result in the setting back of these enormous conservation efforts that we've seen.

And let's give you an example of how the current arrangements are failing in that regard: Pentraeth forest on Ynys Môn. And I know that Rhun ap Iorwerth will be familiar with this challenge. It is a red squirrel stronghold—one of the few strongholds in Wales. Yet Natural Resources Wales has given permission for a felling operation that is going to be based on the outdated data on the local squirrel population, which is over 10 years old, and, worse still, it's going to allow the felling operation to take place during the red squirrel breeding season. So, while a new generation of this endangered species are settling down into their nests, the trees, which hold those nests, will be chopped down. And this is not a small area of woodland being torn down; it's 17 acres—6,500 tonnes of timber—worth of prime red squirrel habitat that is going to be destroyed. And we must remember that this is at a time when, quite rightly, the Welsh Government is decrying global deforestation and encouraging every household in Wales to plant a tree. So, we can't allow this situation to persist. We've got to take action now if we're going to see this species continue to rebound.

Yes, we need to address the shortcomings of the Forestry Act 1967. That work has already been done in Scotland, so we have a template that we can pick up and apply here in Wales. We need a clear timescale for that work to be achieved. And I'm pleased very much that the Welsh Government has started the work on planning for that legislation to change. But we also need some work to be done on ensuring that these 10-year plans are updated on a much more frequent basis so that we can protect the wildlife populations—not just the red squirrel, but other important wildlife species as well—in forests that are state-owned and state-run across the country.

So, on behalf of this small, but incredibly super furry animal, I want to encourage everybody to back the petition that's called for these changes to be made today, and I look forward to hearing further contributions. 

The only red squirrel I've ever seen was on Ynys Môn, and therefore I call Rhun ap Iorwerth. 

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I will also declare that I am an honorary member of the Red Squirrels Trust Wales, and I am very proud to be a Member representing an island who are, as a whole, champions for this particular creature. It was around a year ago when I was out running with my wife less than a mile from my home and a red squirrel jumped from the hedge and sped down the road ahead of us—this flash of a red tail bounding down the road. And it ran ahead of us for some good 50 yards, running with us indeed before disappearing back into the hedge. And we were enchanted, because although I've seen a number of squirrels over the years, this was the first time that I'd seen the red squirrel on my own doorstep. And I recall as a young boy growing up on the island, the great pride that this wonderful creature had chosen to make its home on Ynys Môn. 

But it was under threat, under threat from grey squirrels, as we've heard, and by the mid-1990s it was almost entirely extinct. And when the recovery work started in growing the red squirrel population again, then our pride just grew even further. It brings economic benefits now too, of course. I know of colleagues from this Senedd who have travelled to Anglesey with the sole purpose of seeing a red squirrel. But the greatest value, of course, and I'm sure we could all agree on this, is in the conservation itself, as we heard from the Chair of the Petitions Committee, and the contribution of a healthy red squirrel population to the biodiversity of the island and the biodiversity of the whole of Wales. And now, two thirds of all Welsh red squirrels are on Anglesey once again. 

But that didn't happen by accident, and it's very, very important to bear that in mind, and we should give real thanks for the tireless work of conservationists and volunteers on a local level. We've heard the name of Craig Shuttleworth; I could name Raj Jones, and all the work that she has done over the years in ensuring that signs appeared over the island—the red squirrel forest signs—which was a literal sign that the creature was back. And thank goodness, the red squirrel is safeguarded by legislation. It's an offence to destroy dreys, but there is no safeguard for the woodland that they occupy. The squirrel is protected, but its habitat is not. And that's what this petition seeks to remedy.

And I welcome the petition and what the petitioners are calling for—over 10,000 of them; 1,700 of them from my own constituency. They want to change the licensing system, which would enable us to place conditions before allowing tree felling, so, conditions not to fell during breeding seasons, for example. At the moment, tree felling can happen even without a survey of how many squirrel nests there are. And we see that happening far too often in my own constituency. Why, after all of the work in helping the population to recover, would we want the habitat to be under threat? I've had constituents contact me about plans by Natural Resources Wales to clear fell forestry, or to allow the clear felling of forestry, on several sites on Ynys Môn—Newborough, Pentraeth, as we've heard, Mynydd Bodafon, habitats we know are treasures in terms of the red squirrel population. People are concerned about Penrhos in Holyhead, concerned that not enough coverage is given to safeguarding that habitat. 

Scotland's already changed legislation. The Nature Conservation (Scotland) Act 2004 placed a clause in the Forestry Act 1967 that specifically allows the rejection of tree felling permits or attaches conditions to them—

'for the purpose of conserving or enhancing the flora, fauna or geological or physiographical features, or the natural beauty or amenity, of any land.'

There is no such clause added to Welsh legislation, and it is time for us to remedy that. And beyond legislation, I have to say that it's a real concern of mine that there is a lack of robust dialogue between Natural Resources Wales and conservation organisations. It's something that I've raised time and time again. Partnership has to be part of the solution in safeguarding the squirrel. 

To conclude, I look forward to hearing from the Minister in her response to this debate. I am still awaiting a response to correspondence to the Minister for Climate Change on this issue from July and October of this year. I and the 10,000 and more people who have signed this petition would be grateful to hear whether she is as enthusiastic as we are in terms of safeguarding this rare and wonderful creature.

Thank you to the Petitions Committee for bringing forward this important petition today, and thank you to Jack Sargeant for opening the debate. The petition has highlighted an important opportunity for us here in Wales to progress action to protect our wildlife. We are facing a nature crisis as well as a climate emergency, and we must take seriously the loss of biodiversity that will occur if actions to protect nature species, like the red squirrel, isn't taken.

As Jack has highlighted, one of the biggest threats to red squirrels is habitat loss and fragmentation, and it is here that the Welsh Government can act. In Scotland, felling licences can be refused or granted to enhance or conserve wildlife, thanks to a change in the law, demonstrating a commitment to species protection. Unfortunately, no such protections currently exist here in Wales.

I have also been contacted by residents in Anglesey concerned about the planned development at Penrhos. The nature reserve is an important habitat for red squirrels, as well as an oasis for local residents to enjoy. The development will see 27 acres of trees felled, which will have a serious impact on the squirrels' habitat, removing much of their dreys and runs. I firmly believe that the impact a project will have on local wildlife should be considered when receiving approval, whether this be the felling of trees as part of woodland management or redevelopment like that in Penrhos. So, I welcome this petition that was put forward by Craig Shuttleworth, and hope that, going forward, regulations will be put in place so that biodiversity and species protection will be treated as a priority throughout Wales.

I'd like to thank those who've brought this petition forward, and I want to put on record my thanks, really, to my colleague Darren Millar who has been a sterling champion of the red squirrels. It's important that we, as champions—I know Mark Isherwood recently has been acknowledged for the work he does on curlews—it's important that we take our role seriously and, for the record, I am the champion of the harbour porpoise in Wales.

According to 'The State of Mammals in Wales' report, although there has been a marked decline in the distribution of red squirrels since the 1995 review, the population in Wales currently appears to be stable, and may even be locally expanding. However, it can remain the case that the prospects could be poor. The population of 9,200 is on a downtrend trend. There are four distinct areas in Wales where these adorable characters can be found: Ynys Môn, between Powys and Ceredigion, and Clocaenog forest. Constituents in the Conwy valley in my constituency recall seeing red squirrels there some decades ago; today, they would have to travel over 20 miles for a chance to witness another in the wild. So, wouldn't it be fantastic if the Welsh Government could develop an action plan to link the populations between Clocaenog and Ynys Môn? 

I would be pleased to learn whether the periodic reviews of focal sites have been undertaken since the commitment in the 2018 'Red Squirrel Conservation Plan for Wales', but it remains the case that greys number around 300,000—over 30 times more than the reds. And I have to confess, as an avid bird feeder, that I have three naughty squirrels that come and they do really quite well at my home on my bird tables. With the estimated cost of greys' eradication in Wales being as much as £76 million, the task could appear to be unachievable. However, the 'Grey Squirrel Management Action Plan for Wales' does refer to humane lethal management options. I would be pleased if the Minister could actually update us on that. 

The petition is also right to focus our attention on forest management. In fact, the 'Red Squirrel Conservation Plan for Wales' states that

'Conservation action to protect red squirrels on mainland sites needs to focus on ensuring suitable habitat is present'.

In 2018, Natural Resources Wales's forest planning system was noted as a constraint. Three years on, NRW continue to be a barrier to progress. This organisation must explain why it has spent nothing on monitoring red squirrels in 10 years. This Senedd could undertake a review of the requirements for a felling licence, so to ensure that fair consideration is given to biodiversity and habitat loss. And, Minister, you could immediately rectify the fact that annual assessments of the cumulative impact of felling are not undertaken for state-owned forests. Thank you. Diolch.

From the Gruffalo's friend to Beatrix Potter's Squirrel Nutkin, the red squirrel, the UK's only native squirrel species, has been a much loved part of the UK countryside for thousands of years. The number of them has sadly dwindled over the last decades for many reasons, the main being the introduction of the non-native grey squirrel. Unfortunately, grey squirrels far outnumber red squirrels in Rhondda and the wider south Wales area. I actually have some problems of my own with grey squirrels in my garden, who seem to think it's funny to steal not just the birdseed, but the actual birdfeeders too. But, in all seriousness, I know just how important it is that we not only maintain the number of red squirrels in mid and north Wales, but we ensure we see numbers begin to rise again. The Welsh Government are taking action with the red squirrel conservation plan and the grey squirrel management action plan, but these could prove futile if changes are not made to felling licence criteria, as rightly pointed out by the petitioner.

For me, today's debate highlights two very important issues, with the first being unintentional consequences as a result of tree felling. We experienced devastating flooding in Rhondda last year, following the tree felling above Pentre. The trees had to be felled as they were diseased, but hundreds of homes and businesses were flooded as a consequence. Much like the petition states,

'Although a felling licence is required to fell woodland, these licences cannot be refused even if they cause habitat loss and red squirrel population decline.'

We must ensure that, in future, no unintended consequences occur as a result of tree felling, and this must mean consideration of habitat and biodiversity loss leading to population decline.

The second issue is the loss of endangered and threatened species. I know that many argue we should just let nature take its course, but I respectfully disagree, especially those with a great public image like the red squirrel. Bringing attention to their struggle will lead to wider interest and an understanding of how biodiversity and population loss affect us all. Where we can step into protect these species, we should. Thank you to the petitioner for raising this extremely important issue.

I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I too am very grateful to the petitioner and also to Jack Sargeant, the Chair of the Petitions Committee, for bringing forward this important issue, which, as he and many others said, relates not only to the protection for red squirrels, but also for other wildlife during felling operations. And it is indeed very important that we take steps to maintain and enhance species of principal importance, and this is just one of a number of actions set out in 'The Nature Recovery Action Plan for Wales 2020-21' to help address the nature emergency in Wales. 

I am all too acutely aware of the limitations of the Forestry Act and the nature of conditions that Natural Resources Wales can apply under a felling licence. These limitations, as many Members have pointed out, can result in a disjoint between the Forestry Act and other environmental legislation, leading to gaps in the protection of wildlife. While NRW have taken steps to address this through advisory letters or long-term forestry management plans for landowners, these absolutely do not fully address the issue, as a number of Members have pointed out.

That's why we've committed to including provisions in the agriculture Bill amending the Forestry Act to allow conditions to be added to felling licences. We will also include provisions to amend, suspend or revoke felling licences after they have been granted. These amendments will help provide better protection for wildlife, for example, in relation to the exemption under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, and provide better join-up between forestry and other environmental regulations. The relevant legislation to amend the Forestry Act will be brought forward very shortly.

'The UK Forestry Standard' states that

'woodlands should be managed in a way that conserves or enhances biodiversity'

and reflected in forest management plans. Each part of our Welsh Government woodland estate has a 10-year forest resource plan, which is a requirement for forest certification, and plans do include details of any protected species or habitats that could be affected by management operations, and site surveys are undertaken by NRW in the development of the plans, and measures to mitigate impacts are included, for example, in retaining areas of habitat. Consideration is also given to the habitat needs of species at a landscape scale. That process involves consultation with external stakeholders, such as the red squirrel groups. Plans are also placed on NRW's public register to enable further comments—

Will the Minister take an intervention?

Yes, certainly.

I'm very grateful to you for outlining how the plans are arrived at, and you have said that there's consultation and engagement with stakeholders on the development of those plans, but, because that's every 10 years, it doesn't take account of the change in the population and the impact elsewhere. I noticed also you referred to the fact that you're going to bring forward legislative change, which obviously I very much welcome, but you didn't specify a timescale, you just said 'shortly'. How long is 'shortly'?

I'm just coming on to the 10 year point. I'm not going to be drawn on 'shortly', because we're in negotiation about Plenary time for it, but very shortly—we are aware of the urgency of it.

So, as I was saying, although not legally required, NRW seek approval from their felling licence team to ensure their plans conform to the UK forestry standard. Further site surveys are undertaken before felling operations commence and, if necessary, further mitigation measures can be given to the contractor. 

At this point in time, I wanted to say that we've had a number of conversations with NRW since we took office in May, myself and my colleague Lee Waters. I'm not aware, Rhun, of letters outstanding to yourself, so if you'd like to draw my attention back to them I'd be grateful, because as far as I'm aware I don't have a backlog. Something's gone wrong there, so if you could draw my attention to them I'd be grateful. 

One of the considerations that we are discussing is how close to the actual felling operation a resurvey of the site for differing habitat conditions from the original survey should be, and what factors they have to take into account in order to trigger that. You wouldn't want to do that for every one, but there will be factors to take into account. So, just to say that we're having conversations along those lines.

One of the take-homes from COP26 for us was a conversation with other what are called subnational UN states such as Quebec on changes to forestry practice where clear felling no longer takes place and canopy cover is maintained at all times, even in productive sustainable timber forests. We're very keen that NRW shift to that method of production as fast as we can. That can't be done overnight. I can't make that happen tomorrow morning. And there are lots of other conditions that pertain across Welsh woodlands, including needing to take measures to stop the spread of disease. We still have monocultural pine forests and so on. So, it won't be overnight, but we're very aware of the need to do that. Indeed, we're very plugged in to the global effort to have continuous canopy cover for habitat protection, whilst having a productive timber industry. So, we're very definitely on the case of doing that. 

We also have a consideration of the cumulative impact of felling on habitat as part of the felling licence regime. This is where we don't just consider what happens if we fell this stand of trees without considering what will happen to pressure on that stand of trees over there, which may still be there but will have dislocated wildlife arriving at it. I was very keen, during the curlew conservation plan launch, to engage with people looking to protect grassland areas about what happens to edge-of-grassland areas with forest in them if felling takes place elsewhere in the habitat and the kinds of predators that are moved across that then predate on the grassland.

We all know this, Deputy Presiding Officer, but this is a very complex ecosystem we're talking about. It's not just this bit, it all interacts. So, we're very keen that NRW takes account of those cumulative impacts and account of the needs of species in relation to existing and new applications for felling licenses, as well as their own internal forest resource plans. To assist in that process, we've now got a formal data-sharing agreement with local records centres across Wales to update their own GIS database with new survey data. We've also issued a contract to monitor and assess red squirrel populations on Anglesey, which is due to complete in spring 2022. Red squirrels are already monitored at the other two focal sites that Members have mentioned, in Clocaenog and in mid Wales.

If we are to fully benefit from the contribution our woodlands can make to both the nature and climate emergencies, we do need to plant and manage more trees. We will need to strike the right balance in doing this to enable effective woodland management and planting that meets our needs for habitat improvement and biodiversity, as well as providing timber for low-carbon housing, for example. 

Deputy Presiding Officer, in closing, we absolutely recognise the need for clear guidance on how and when the new powers arising from amendments to the Forestry Act will be used. NRW will be publishing draft guidance ahead of the legislation very shortly. Diolch.

I call on Jack Sargeant to reply to the debate.

Diolch yn fawr, Deputy Presiding Officer. I want to thank Craig Shuttleworth and all the signatories of this petition for putting this topic on the agenda today. I think it was clear from the contributions made by all Members that there is a clear cross-party consensus, and from the Minister's response, not only to why we do need to act to protect red squirrels, but also what action needs to be taken. We heard from Members across the Chamber, including my colleague Carolyn Thomas, my colleague Rhun ap Iorwerth, and also my colleague and super furry animal from Clwyd West, about legislation and changes to legislation. I welcome the Minister's response to those point and the sense of urgency and recognition of urgency, and that the time to act is now. So, we will be keeping a close eye on those amendments to legislation and what is being brought forward by the Welsh Government. But, as many people have said as well, we do want to thank all the volunteers that are out there across Wales working to protect the species already—the Mid Wales Red Squirrel Partnership and the Red Squirrels Trust Wales to name a few. But thanks to all those others out there as well. 

Deputy Presiding Officer, as Wales embarks on a plan to plant more trees and to create a national forest for Wales, there are reasons to be hopeful, I think, for the future. This Parliament will soon be closing its doors for its short winter hibernation, so I do hope today this debate has stoked up a sufficient supply of ideas and showcased the passion of Members right across the Senedd Chamber, of all political colours, so that we can return in the new year committed to making Wales a place where the red squirrel can not only survive but strengthen their numbers so that we no longer consider the red squirrel an endangered species in Wales. And, again, I'd like to thank the Minister, in finally closing this debate, for her sense of urgency and recognition of the work that needs to be done. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

The proposal is to note the petition. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The Welsh Conservatives debate is next: mental health services. I call on Mark Isherwood to move the motion.

My recent call for a Senedd debate in Welsh Government time on the Holden report published last month, documenting failings on the Hergest mental health unit in Bangor, was rejected. We have therefore brought forward this opposition debate on a matter that has long-standing Welsh Government involvement. 

In 2012, the deputy coroner wrote to the health board outlining her concern after a woman died in the Hergest unit. After Professor David Healy from the department of psychiatry in the Hergest unit raised concerns over developments in the provision of mental health services in north Wales, Lesley Griffiths, then health Minister, replied to Darren Millar in 2012, stating that an independent review would commence shortly. After I raised the same concerns with the health board's then chief executive, she replied to me in 2012 that she had initiated an investigation. But, the board was not put into special measures until June 2015, after an external investigation revealed that patients had suffered institutional abuse in Glan Clwyd Hospital's Ablett acute mental health unit. The health board stated that it was alerted to serious concerns regarding patient care on the Tawel Fan ward in the Ablett unit in December 2013, but concerns about this ward went back a lot further. For example, in 2009, I raised with the Welsh Government and health board the concerns of a constituent who said that the treatment received by her husband in the Ablett unit nearly killed him, that three other patients admitted around the same time as her husband had similar experiences, and that she was now worried about the treatment others may receive in this unit. 

Ahead of the Holden report's publication, I was one of five Members to receive correspondence from a retired NHS executive after he had seen the report and appendix. He stated that, up until then, the health board had protested that the main text of the Holden report and its appendix, completed in December 2013 and containing extracts from the damning statements of 40 whistleblowers, must remain hidden from public view in order to safeguard the confidentiality of the whistleblowers, and that the decision to withhold evidence of neglect on such spurious grounds was deliberate and wilful. The health board, he said, had finally given up this pretence by now accepting the information commissioner's ruling, first made over 16 months ago, that the report should be published in full. It is now crystal clear that the main body of evidence provided by the whistleblowers—all of them key members of staff on the Hergest unit—was deliberately kept hidden from view. This was done not to protect the identity of the whistleblowers but to conceal the acts and omissions of their senior managers that were causing staff to be bullied and patients to be neglected.

The health board, he said, made a brief summary of the report available to the Public Accounts Committee in November 2015, but publication of the full report now reveals just how much detail was concealed from the Public Accounts Committee at the time. As he asked, how, then, was it possible that in 2014, the most senior of these managers was allowed to make reports to the health board and its quality committee that concealed his own part in the Holden process, and has the health board now satisfied itself that the senior officials responsible for this mess and for keeping it under wraps for so long have now all been removed from any responsibility for the care of vulnerable mental health patients?

Speaking here in September, the health Minister said it was important to note that a summary report was published in 2015, including the Holden recommendations. But this is the very brief summary report referred to above, which did not describe the 31 concerns listed by staff. Throughout my time as a Member of the Senedd, since 2003, I have supported a succession of principled whistleblowers who have been threatened, bullied, denigrated or damaged for daring to tell the truth in Wales. An event that led directly to Holden involved two senior nursing staff who had raised safety concerns being summarily marched out of the building on a trumped-up basis. In the case of Tawel Fan, two members of the medical staff were put on restricted duties and referred to the General Medical Council. One of them had raised safety concerns with management, but was told that doing so indicated he was not a team player.

A letter I received from Professor Healy in 2019 stated, 'Several of my patients have died, in part because of difficulties in getting them input. I wrote to the health board about one patient—now dead—who was getting more care co-ordination from the north Wales police than from the mental health services, but I do not get even acknowledgement or receipt of letters.' False allegations were made against him; he was exonerated each time, and finally accepted a job offer in Canada. However, a letter received from him this week states, 'A merger of health boards across north Wales put Wrexham-based staff in charge of the entire service. Bullying, thuggery, summary dismissals based on trumped-up charges, invented sexual abuse allegations became par for the course; staff who raised safety concerns were told they were not team players and were dismissed. Some politicians at least acknowledge the receipt of letters from senior staff drawing their attention to these issues. Mr Drakeford never did. His recent comments on what happened have been jaw-droppingly wrong.'

Responding here to the 2018 statement by the then health Secretary Vaughan Gething on the Health and Social Care Advisory Service report on the Tawel Fan ward, I stated:

'in 2015, Welsh Government, the health board and Healthcare Inspectorate Wales all accepted the findings of Donna Ockenden's 2015 report.'

So, why now, when many serious allegations are peppered throughout the HASCAS report, has it come to the bizarre conclusion that care was good and that institutional abuse didn't happen? The 2018 Ockenden review found that the systems, structures and processes of governance, management and leadership introduced by the health board from 2009 were wholly inappropriate and significantly flawed. In January 2019, Donna Ockenden revealed that staff had told her services were going backwards. Two patients in north Wales mental health units have died from hanging and attempted hanging over the last year. Last month, a Public Services Ombudsman for Wales report revealed that the health board had made a fulsome apology to the son of a lady who had received treatment on the Hergest ward, David Graves, for the failings identified and injustice caused to him and his family. In a letter to the Older People's Commissioner for Wales, the health board's executive director of nursing and midwifery stated that Mr Graves had at times been verbally aggressive and made expressions that have forced the health board to consider the safety of the individual. In response, Donna Ockenden wrote, 'I have always found you, Mr Graves, polite and courteous.'

Yesterday, North Wales Community Health Council's chief officer wrote to me ahead of this debate, stating that when it comes to implementing recommendations of challenging reports, Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board have been slow to act, some may say reluctant. Our motion therefore calls on the Welsh Government to apologise to staff, patients and the families of those adversely affected and to undertake a fundamental review of mental health services across Wales with patients, families, professionals and other stakeholders. This whole episode has been a disgrace, and a stain on the reputation of this establishment and the Government of Wales.

I have selected the amendment to the motion. I call on the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, Lynne Neagle, to formally move the amendment tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Formally.

Thank you. Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. I very much welcome the opportunity today to debate the Holden report and build on the discussion we had as part of the short debate led by Llyr Gruffydd a few weeks ago. It's notable that, despite a few weeks passing now since the release, finally, of this damning report, the Government still hasn't used its own Senedd time to allow the Senedd to debate the report and scrutinise the Government's response.

Now that the report is out in the open at long last, work has to begin on restoring the trust of the people of the north of Wales, and that starts with the health board and Welsh Government acknowledging the enormity of what that report reveals, recognising the erosion of trust, the deep, deep erosion of trust in the system, and committing to learning each and every difficult lesson that will come out of this. We mustn't forget that this report was one of the factors in placing Betsi Cadwaladr health board in special measures in the first place, and the Welsh Government had direct responsibility for the health board up until last year, and even after it came out of special measures, patients continued to die, and questions persist in my mind and in the minds of many others about how that decision could have been made, to remove the board out of special measures when so many questions remained unanswered.

But this now is about far more than releasing a desperately overdue report; it's about accountability from all in charge of the health board, directly and indirectly, now and in recent years, during this most terrible episode. We will support the motion as it stands and reject the Government's amendment, the Government refusing to recognise the need for more transparency and the need for better resourcing to tackle the issues raised here. It will be of deep, deep concern, I know, and disappointment to many staff members and patients and their families that Welsh Government here is choosing to remove from the original motion the need for everybody involved to regret that lack of accountability, and to regret the devastating impact of the failings that we saw on staff and patients and their loved ones. They will be angered by the rejection of Welsh Government to calls for an apology, for timely production of reports in future, for the delivery of radical improvements in services, for that fundamental review of mental health services. For the establishment of a network of mental health walk-in centres—Plaid Cymru has asked for four years for such measures. I've discussed with the Deputy Minister plans that she also has to put measures in place, but we need to see those measures, of course, being put in place as part of wide-ranging changes to mental health provision throughout the whole of Wales.

But here with Hergest and what happened there, we have catastrophic events that led to the loss of life and to enduring pain for many, many family members who have grieved the loss of loved ones. Patients, families and many staff, many of whom I've had deep and distressing conversations with over the years, they will be listening intently to what the Deputy Minister is saying today, because the publication of the report itself mustn't be seen as the end of a campaign for the publication of the report. It must be seen and it must be evidenced that it is, in fact, the beginning of a new chapter after the sorry, sorry story that we have seen in Hergest and in mental health in the north of Wales in recent years. 

Thanks to my colleague Darren Millar for submitting this extremely important debate here today. As outlined by my colleague Mark Isherwood in opening today's debate, the findings of the Holden report are deeply concerning. In fact, they're absolutely shocking and make for very difficult reading for the residents that I represent in north Wales. As Mr Isherwood outlined, the long-awaited report, that was prevented from being published for years, revealed a culture of bullying and of low morale amongst staff in the Hergest ward, which is said to have been in serious trouble, according to the report. And relationships between staff and managers at matron level and above had broken to such an extent that patient care was undoubtedly affected. And it is devastating to hear that patients have come to harm and been neglected because of these issues. With these extreme failures, of course, are staff, patients and families who've had to endure these devastating events.

As we all know—it has already been pointed out—Welsh Labour Government have had oversight of this failing health board, and leading this oversight for much of this time was the First Minister, Mr Drakeford, who was then health Minister. As the First Minister outlined to me in questions last week, and I quote,  

'I agree that it is important to make sure that there is proper trust between people who use services and the provision of those services in north Wales'.

And this Government, Deputy Presiding Officer, has a huge amount of work to do, as currently many of my residents across north Wales simply don't feel that trust when it comes to mental health services in my region. 

As our motion states, staff, patients and families affected first of all need a simple apology from the Welsh Government. I don't think that's a difficult thing to ask for. Aside from words, what my residents also want are radical improvements in the provision of mental health services across the region of North Wales, including the establishment of a 24-hour mental health walk-in centre, and meaningful information on the performance and quality of mental health services across Wales that they use being published. Yet, despite this, the board is still experiencing difficulties with mental health provision. The latest figures show that the health board in north Wales has some of the worst waiting times in Wales, and what have we seen the Labour Government here do? Taking this failing health board out of special measures just months before May's Senedd elections, which I'm sure some would say was simply a political decision.

So, aside from some of the action or inaction we are experiencing from Government at the moment in this regard, we've seen today, in this motion we've put forward, Welsh Government's amendments to delete parts of our motion that point to the regret of the tragedies, and remove our proposals for practical and robust solutions to fix some of the issues that are in place, ensuring patients receive the best possible treatment and, as I said earlier, looking to, really importantly, regain their trust.

I was really pleased to hear Plaid Cymru's contribution supporting our motion unamended. It's really important that we send the right message to all those who have suffered. So, to conclude, Deputy Presiding Officer, the Holden report and its findings are truly disturbing, a very sad state of affairs, and it's just another failure in two decades of poor decisions and management from the Labour-run health service in north Wales, and behind these failures are sadly people suffering unnecessarily. It's time for the Welsh Government to learn from their mistakes and put patients first. I urge all Members to support this important motion. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

I wanted to speak in this debate as a Member from south Wales who doesn't have a detailed knowledge of the workings of the Betsi Cadwaladr health board, but has had constituents contacting me with mental health problems in my constituency who are looking for support from the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board and associated health boards in my community. So, I take at face value some of the reassurances that we've had from the health Minister, and I'd like to hear more from the Deputy Minister today about how the Holden report has been responded to, and those issues that will be noted by the Welsh Government as a series of improvements that are being made as a result. So, I think that's important to have my support for the Welsh Government's amendment—for the Minister to make that clear in her response. But the clear point of part 3(d) onwards of the motion identifies things that can be done across Wales. Now, I can't see directly where—. It's quite a great leap from the Holden report to the whole of Wales, is the point I'm trying to make here, and I can't see where that leap can be made. So, I would say that from point (d) onwards, to undertake a fundamental review of mental health services, publish meaningful information on the performance and quality of health services across Wales, establish the walk-in centres, and deliver a new mental health Act, I think that is a deeper piece of work that needs to be undertaken by a committee investigation rather than simply be voted through in this Chamber today, because it seems to be quite an extrapolation from the Holden report itself.

That said, the First Minister did respond yesterday—I was listening to First Minister's questions—about mental health services, and he said care navigation is really important in reducing the pressure on mental health services. The problem with care navigation is that it creates a bottleneck, and the bottleneck happens at the point you approach primary care. And when you approach primary care, it can be very difficult to get to the right mental health service. I've actually written—. So, I do have a lot of sympathy for some of the reforms that are suggested, including a fundamental review of mental health services, because I've written to the health Minister to ask for an expert-led review into care navigation. I didn't get a response in the affirmative, but I did get an explanation of the work that's been done with GP services to improve access to care navigation, which has been introduced, which should see a reduction in the 8 a.m. type queues that happen on the phone, first thing on a Monday or Tuesday morning. The Welsh Government has taken steps in that regard. Nonetheless, the proof on that will be in the evidence that occurs after those measures are introduced. So, bottlenecks to care are important, and what often happens with people who are seeking mental health support is that, rather than going for talking therapy, the waiting list for such services is so long that they go for medication. And medication should not be the first option when it comes to mental health support. It should be talking therapy, exercise, lifestyle change. All of these things can support better than an immediate option to drugs and that kind of solution. So, those bottlenecks don't help, and I think the Welsh Government are taking steps to address that.

Finally, I'd like to identify specific issues that have been raised by me in my constituency. A constituent of mine who has attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and Tourette's syndrome has contacted me. She came as part of a campaign organised by a south Wales Tourette's society, and specifically there is no clinical pathway for Tourette's in Wales, which means difficulties in terms of securing a diagnosis and accessing further support. Those of you who've been in this Chamber for some time will know I have a daughter who is severely autistic, and I can see a pathway for her, and the treatment she needs. But those with Tourette's and ADHD don't have the same pathway and don't have the same access to mental health services. And I know the Deputy Minister knows this in depth and is working on this. In response to a BBC Wales story on this issue, the Welsh Government said,

'Regional Partnership Boards are rolling out a new framework to improve access to the right support'

and that it was,

'reviewing all children's and adults neurodevelopmental services, to identify where there are gaps in provision and the demand, capacity and design of services for children, young people and adults'

can be improved. Can the Minister therefore confirm whether or not those regional partnership boards have completed their roll-out of this new framework? And can she confirm if the Welsh Government is still on track to complete its review of children's and adults' neurodevelopmental services by March as intended, which would go some way to answering some of the questions in the motion?

Finally, it would be remiss of me, when we're talking about mental health, not to welcome back Andrew R.T. Davies to the Chamber. I thought, yesterday, his contribution yesterday was the contribution of someone who's taken some time out of politics, because he was very reasonable, very measured, and I think there's a lesson for us now over Christmas to take that step back, and probably come back in the new year with a spirit of kindness and mutual support.

The harrowing testimony of overworked front-line staff in this report and some of the scandalous content should give all officials and Government Ministers pause for thought. It is plainly unacceptable that a report of this importance, formed from 700 pages of testimony, provided by 45 members of staff, was kept out of the public domain for so long. 

Now, during a meeting with the chairman and chief executive of the health board last week, I raised my concerns in relation to this particular report, and I was reassured that future reports where things have been found to go intensely wrong will now be written with publication in mind. I think, to be fair, the health board have acknowledged that this is not the way that reports like this should be just left lingering, and families in agonising waits. However, given that the Betsi Cadwaladr health board now is currently at the second stage of an important report into vascular services, and the urology department, these too will also be subject to review. Minister, I hope that you will use your reply to confirm that the Welsh Government will look to require all health boards to publish reports routinely and in a timely manner so as to improve transparency and patient trust.

The findings of the Holden report, which include expansive notes on the understaffing of wards to the point that basic physical care and attention to personal hygiene were neglected, as well as concerns over fractured management structures, are merely reflective of enshrined issues at the health board. Indeed, the Ockenden review found that, from early 2013, Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board was being told that their management and investigation of concerns, including serious incidents and never events, were not fit for purpose. Moreover, front-line staff within older people's mental health services have consistently reported significant concerns around staffing levels and lack of engagement with the senior management teams within mental health. Taken together, these findings only support the justification for a further inquiry into the workings and management of the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board.

Despite the fifth Senedd's Public Accounts Committee report in May 2019 noting that there were doubts as to whether the board would be able to get out of special measures within 12 months, after nearly five and a half years languishing in special measures, in November 2020, the former health Minister made a surprise move to lift the board out of special measures, and, as Sam Rowlands, my colleague, said, this was just before a Senedd election. So, it is vital that any inquiries examine whether this political decision has had a negative impact on the health board, particularly as it is still suffering from a lack of staff, spending £180 million on agency staff in the last five years, and the fact that around 40,242 patients are waiting longer than a year for their treatment.

Returning to the issue of mental health services, the latest figures show that this board has the second worst waiting times in Wales, with just 56.3 per cent waiting less than 28 days for an assessment in September 2021. Constructively, alongside a refreshed 10-year mental health strategy, I am standing with my Welsh Conservative colleagues to call for a new mental health Act, which would update legislation and include the latest thinking around mental health provision in Wales. My hope is that such an Act will help to establish a network of 24-hour mental health walk-in centres for those experiencing a mental health crisis, as well as support the return of trained nurses to GP surgeries. 

So, Minister, I trust that your reply will commit to working on a cross-party basis to deliver a new mental health Act so that we can urgently develop radical improvements in the provision of mental health services in the Betsi board and across Wales. And never again do I ever want to rise to speak in this Senedd to debate such serious findings as this report found. And I really do—. The points that my colleague Mark Isherwood said today: as Members who've been here more than one term, this really is probably the saddest day that I've even had to stand up in this Senedd. Diolch.

Thank you for the opportunity to once again discuss this issue. We've had a number of opportunities over recent weeks and months, and indeed recent years, to discuss the scandal of the Hergest unit and the scandal of not publishing the Holden report in full. And every time I get up to speak about this issue, I still can't believe that the board tried to evade accountability in the way that they did—they tried to avoid transparency on this issue—and, of course, how we have still not seen people held to account for the serious failings in relation to this case.

If you're a nurse or a doctor and you fail in your duties, then you're struck off the register; you are excluded from operating within your profession. If you're a manager in the health service who fails, then you get to carry on and, very often, you just move on to a different role, a similar role, somewhere else. That has to change, and there is a responsibility on the Government to ensure that that can't continue to happen in the future.

The culture of resistance to scrutiny, to change and challenge led, of course, to Betsi's hierarchy refusing to release this report, despite, even, the requests of the information commissioner. Grieving relatives had to wait unnecessarily due to a bureaucracy that didn't put people first—it put its own interests and its own reputation first, and, of course, in doing so, tarnished that reputation even further. And it's not just grieving relatives of victims at Hergest, of course—think of the Tawel Fan scandal and the many, many families affected there. The alarm was raised in Hergest, and had it been heeded across the health board with the timely publication of the Holden report, then we might not have had Tawel Fan. 

Now, I'm heartened by the acceptance at the very top of Betsi Cadwaladr health board in recent months that things must change—that's a very positive step and, of course, it's to be welcomed. But I'm not naïve. We've been here before; we've had these false dawns in the past—promises made to learn lessons and to be more open. But Betsi Cadwaladr can't afford to make any more promises and not deliver. So, the proof will be in the pudding, because we all accept that running the largest health board in Wales with such challenging demographics is difficult, and mental health care particularly is an ongoing challenge across all health boards, as we heard earlier, and I'm afraid that those challenges are, of course, only increasing.

I can't accept the amendment proposed by the Government. This Government has a direct responsibility for the failings at Betsi Cadwaladr due to the time it spent, as we heard, in special measures. It would be better for the Government to reflect on its complicity in the problems that blighted the health board during the past decade. Where was the leadership from Government when it was under its direct control? Why didn't you get rid of that cover-up culture and drag the health board out of this mess? So, we now move forward and we need far more transparency and accountability from those charged with running our public services.

Now, I want to touch on children and adolescent mental health services particularly. We know of the completely unacceptable backlogs in dealing with acute cases of child mental illnesses and I know that the Deputy Minister is painfully aware of that, and they are problems that have had traumatic impacts on youngsters, their families and the wider community. And the pandemic, as we know, has intensified these issues, so we have to look at intensifying the support as well. And that's why I am glad that the Plaid Cymru co-operation agreement with the Government commits to looking at how we can test community facilities, involving the third sector particularly, to try and develop the clear referral pathways into NHS services that can help support young people in crisis, or those with urgent mental health or emotional well-being issues.

The failings at Hergest should never have happened, and, of course, the whole farce around the initial non-full publication of the Holden report should certainly never have happened. So, let's hope now that Betsi Cadwaladr health board has finally learned its lesson and will finally start getting to grips with the serious failings in mental health services in north Wales. Now, that would at least be a belated but a positive and hopefully lasting legacy for all those who were so tragically failed.

It's a pleasure to take part in this debate this afternoon, as I worked in Betsi Cadwaladr for 11 years and I worked for four years in mental health as a support worker, so I'd like to consider this topic of debate fairly close to my heart. Although the Holden report is focused on the failings of the Hergest unit at Ysbyty Gwynedd, it has implications for patients right across north Wales, and it serves as a chilling reminder for many of my constituents of the failings at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd in Bodelwyddan and the Royal Alexandra in Rhyl.

It has been 11 years since the first inspections at the Glan Traeth ward at the Royal Alex and seven years since the publication of the Ockenden review, which was triggered as a result of serious failings on the Ablett unit at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, yet many of my constituents feel that, despite a string of reviews and years in special measures, Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board management are failing patients and staff who work for the health board.

Just before the pandemic, the Senedd's Public Accounts Committee highlighted staffing issues at the health board. They flagged the lack of progress on implementing the recommendations of both the Health and Social Care Advisory Service review and the Ockenden review. The committee also cast doubt on the ability to get the health board out of special measures. However, at the height of the pandemic, and months before the Senedd elections, the health board was taken out of special measures, as Janet Finch-Saunders and Sam Rowlands alluded to, much to the surprise of patients and staff across north Wales—so, read between the lines on that one.

There continue to be grave concerns about mental health provision across the health board. Three quarters of children and young people across the region wait longer than the recommended 28 days for an assessment. We know only too well that the pandemic has had a shocking impact on the mental health of young people across Wales, yet those living in my constituency continue to be served by a failing service, one that has been talked about for decades but continues to fail those it serves despite the best efforts of our amazing NHS staff, who go above and beyond their duties on a daily basis—staff who continue to be overworked and undervalued by senior management, and, sadly, it's not just mental health services in north Wales that are suffering. Staff shortages continue to put patient safety at risk—so much so that doctors at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd were forced to write to the health board warning about overcrowding and day-long waits for patients to be seen. Doctors warned that emergency departments were so crowded that time-critical interventions in sepsis, stroke, cardiac care, major trauma and resuscitation are compromised.

My constituents are rightly concerned about how the NHS is being run in north Wales. The serious failures at the mental health unit are just the tip of the iceberg, unfortunately. We need urgent reform of mental health care across Betsi Cadwaladr, and I urge Members to support our motion, but I also ask the Welsh Government this afternoon to get to grips with the growing crisis in our accident and emergency departments. Thank you. 

Samuel Kurtz.

Sorry, Dirprwy Lywydd, I was under the impression that I wasn't in this debate; apologies.

That's okay. Your name is here. If you don't want to speak, that's no problem.

No, sorry, it was my understanding that it was withdrawn.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, Lynne Neagle.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, for the opportunity to respond to this debate and to place on my record my recognition of the commitment of Betsi Cadwaladr health board to continue to improve mental health services. I'd like to acknowledge the dedication of the staff on the ground in north Wales, who work hard to deliver high-quality and compassionate care for patients who need mental health support. 

Members will recall that we debated this subject on 29 September, before the legal process around the freedom of information request for the full Holden report was completed. It was also the subject of a number of questions to the First Minister in recent weeks, following the release of the full report by the health board. But here we are again, debating a motion that seeks to apportion blame for events from eight years ago and does little to acknowledge that, whilst there is no doubt that significant challenges remain, the health board has taken steps to address the issues highlighted in the Holden report and, indeed, other failings in their mental health services.

On Holden itself, it is important to remember that the summary report that was published by the health board in 2015 included all of the recommendations made by Robin Holden. The health board took action at that time to address the issues raised, and commissioned work to ensure that the Holden recommendations had been implemented. This piece of work was reported to the health board’s quality, safety and experience committee in January this year, and is publicly available. This provided assurance that action was taken against each of the recommendations in the report. The chief executive has acknowledged that certain issues, including having older people with functional mental illness cared for in the same environment as acute adult mental health, have proved complex to resolve due to the design and layout of the Hergest unit and the staffing resources involved. This does not mean these issues are not being addressed. The needs of each patient are considered, and they are managed according to need. We are working with the health board around options for a longer term solution.

Some suggest there was some sort of delay between the report being produced and the health board being placed in special measures. However, as we know, the Holden report was one of a number of independent reviews commissioned by the health board in response to concerns about the quality of mental health care in north Wales, which led to its placement in special measures in 2015. There was no delay. In fact, the then health Minister asked the tripartite group of Welsh Government officials, Wales Audit Office and Healthcare Inspectorate Wales to review Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board’s escalation status in June 2015. On being advised that the health board had not made sufficient progress in addressing long-standing concerns about governance, leadership and progress, he made the immediate decision to place the board in special measures, and that was announced in this Chamber less than 24 hours later.

Since the time of the Holden report, the health board has made considerable progress. Feedback from Audit Wales, HIW, and Welsh Government officials following the latest mental health round-table, held as recently as 22 September, found that there has been significant improvement in the openness and transparency shown by the health board about its mental health services. A new chief executive has been appointed to steer the health board on its improvement journey. Governance arrangements have been strengthened to provide greater oversight and scrutiny of mental health services at board level, as well as systematic ways of identifying and reporting issues as they arise. There is far more stability at a management level within mental health services, and increased confidence in the service to deliver.

Whilst we know that, as with a number of health boards across Wales at the moment, there are some performance issues that have been exasperated by COVID, Betsi's CAMHS and adult services have been better aligned to provide a more integrated service. The way that the health board works with local authority and third sector partners to support the preventative and early intervention part of the mental health agenda has also seen major improvements. It is clear from my own meetings with the health board, and those of my officials, that it is using the significant Welsh Government oversight and challenge in a positive way, and in line with its desire to be a learning organisation.

The targeted intervention framework is being used by the health board, and four maturity matrices have been developed with staff to drive improvements. The matrices are owned by the health board, developed with the staff on the ground, who’ve shown real insight into the difficulties they face and the challenges ahead. A key element of the matrices is that they are explicit about the need for the health board to demonstrate that it is responding to the recommendations from external reviews, and implementing new ways of working in response to these recommendations. Officials are meeting regularly with the health board to review progress against the matrices, and I welcome the transparency and openness demonstrated by the health board as part of this process. I myself have had the opportunity to discuss the mental heath matrix directly with the chair and chief executive, as well as the person in charge of mental health services. In its own self-assessment, the board has recognised there is much work to do. Whilst I acknowledge the baseline scores are low, they reflect an honest appraisal of the position the health board is in. It is important to note that these scores are not reflective of the whole area, but of those areas that are in targeted intervention, and they set a baseline against which we can track progress through the matrices.

Recovery and transformation will take time, but we have consistently made it clear to the health board that being able to evidence service improvement is key to progressing across the matrices with a view to further de-escalation. I do not shy away from the fact that there is much more work to be done to ensure mental health services in Wales reach a standard people expect and deserve. From my discussions with the chair and chief executive of Betsi, this is something that is abundantly clear to staff at the health board. We need to recognise, though, that progress has been made and continues to be made. There's a growing sense of confidence, that the building blocks are in place to enable the health board to push on from here and address the outstanding issues. Importantly, we are getting the sense that the staff themselves believe the organisation is committed to learning and growing. This sense of an organisation that they can be proud to be part of is crucial for attracting and retaining staff at all levels, and it's vital we support the health board in measures to raise staff morale rather than constantly attacking them.

Turning to the asks in the motion, I would like to point out that the health board have already apologised. We regret that people have had these bad experiences, and they have already apologised. The health board has already committed to making public every report it commissions. Staff had been informed they could speak to Holden in confidence, and the health board was concerned the identities of individuals would be revealed without appropriate redactions, and that doing so would undermine staff confidence in raising concerns in future. The health board, though, has learned from this process and now has a policy in place for significant reports that will be commissioned with a view to them being made public to prevent such issues arising in the future. We are asked to deliver radical improvements to the provision of mental health services in north Wales. We are already doing this.

Turning to the 24-hour crisis mental health centres, as I have said many times in this Senedd, our approach to improve the mental health and well-being of children and young people is to ensure that mental health support is embedded across settings where they live their lives, including schools, colleges and communities. The roll-out of our NEST framework will be a key part of this approach, and our learning will inform our work to develop a NEST framework for adults. I hope that our prevention work will stop issues from escalating to crisis point, but we know that there is a need to improve access to crisis support for children and adults. This includes our implementation of all-age single points of contact for mental health via 111, and further development of alternatives to admission. As part of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, we are also committed to testing sanctuary-type provision for young people as part of this broader pathway to improve—

Deputy Minister, you need to conclude now.

—the response to crisis. However, most people presenting with emotional distress do not need specialist mental health support. Often it is support for wider social and welfare needs that is required, and I am committed to driving a multi-agency and cross-Government approach to this.

This motion asks us to deliver a new mental health Act for Wales. We have signed up to the reforms of the Mental Health Act 1983 being taken forward by the UK Government, and I would remind Members that these stem from an extensive in-depth review by Sir Simon Wessely, which was well received by professionals and stakeholders alike. We are working closely with the UK Government on these reforms and it has promised to ensure the reforms work for Wales. I have no reason to doubt that promise, even if others clearly have.

Minister, you do need to conclude.

This motion fails to acknowledge any of the work over the last few years, but instead looks to assign blame. It fails to support the organisation. It fails to support the hard-working and determined staff on the ground—the same staff we clapped on our doorsteps not so long ago. It fails to recognise improvements in services made in the years since Holden. Most of all, it fails to recognise the huge efforts made by the countless staff who go the extra mile to deliver their best day in, day out. For those reasons, we cannot support it, and I urge Members to support the Government amendment.

The hard-working and caring staff in BCU deserve support from us in this Chamber, and we do the people of north Wales no favours by continually seeking some sort of respective trawl to see who can be blamed for past events. We all owe it to the people of north Wales to support the health board and its new management as it moves forward, and help it to deliver for them.

I call on Darren Millar to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I very much regret the tone of the Deputy Minister's response to this debate today. These are serious issues before the Senedd. It is not right that we are being critical of staff. In fact, we've called upon the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, and indeed the Welsh Government, to apologise to staff for not addressing the failings. I think that indicates a great deal of support and sympathy for the front-line staff who've been working hard trying to deliver improvements.

But there is no doubt whatsoever that the Holden report exposed, as far back as 2013, serious failings in mental health care in north Wales: a culture of bullying and intimidation, staff shortages, patients being neglected, some coming to harm. And it's just a matter of fact that it then took a further period, until June 2015, in spite of the Minister's assertions that swift action was taken, for the health board to be placed in special measures, when another report was effectively saying the same things were happening in the Tawel Fan ward, further down the road at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, that were also problematic and there were serious failings and institutional neglect.

I don't think that that was sufficiently rapid action. And in that intervening period, I'm afraid to say, Deputy Minister, that your Government allowed further patients to come to harm, to be neglected and to be subjected to that institutional abuse. That is a matter or fact, whether you like it or not. And for that, I would have thought it would have been decent enough of the Government today to offer an apology to the patients affected, some of whom have now passed away, their loved ones and, indeed, the staff, who were severely let down by the leadership of the Betsi Cadwaladr health board, and indeed the Welsh Government and the decision making of the Welsh Government at that particular time.

When the health board was placed into special measures, we were told, with great fanfare, that within 100 days there would be significant improvements in that health board in terms of the mental health care in the region. But that was not the case. Five and a half years later, that health board was removed from special measures, in spite of the fact that there were still huge challenges waiting to be addressed in terms of mental health care, and many of the failings that had been identified in Holden, identified in Ockenden, identified in HASCAS—in spite of their atrocious conclusion in their report that there'd been no institutional abuse—had not been addressed. These are just statements and matters of fact.

So, to bury your head in the sand and say that everything is improving—there have been some 'major improvements' is what you said—when we've had two deaths in the Betsi Cadwaladr health board on these mental health units over the past 12 months, which could have been prevented if some of the action that was promised had actually been taken, I think, is frankly disgusting. Frankly, it's disgusting. And to not be able to wake up and smell the coffee and recognise when a service is failing and needs to improve is unacceptable.

When are we going to see these promised improvements? It's still got these huge challenges six years later after it was placed in special measures for its mental health services. You're letting down the people of north Wales. You're letting down the mental health patients. You're letting down these vulnerable people who desperately need our support. And for you to simply suggest that everything's hunky-dory, that everything has been significantly improved, I think, is a disgrace. There was a significant delay in the action being taken by the Welsh Government.

You talked about discussions with stakeholders. What about the feedback from patients? What about the feedback from families? I didn't hear you refer to them at all in your response. Because I can tell you from my own casework that people aren't happy. The situation isn't good. The situation still needs to improve significantly, and unless we have a Minister who can recognise that, we won't have anybody getting to grips with these challenges.

Now I will say this: I do have a lot of faith in the new chief executive and in the chair of the health board, and I believe that they really are determined to want to get to grips with this issue once and for all. I very much hope that you will be part of that team to turn this situation around, but I'm afraid that with the attitude and the unnecessarily politically hostile response that you've given today—and I'm not being political here; I'm simply making the point that we need a Government that recognises that these are challenges—and unless you're prepared to get alongside them, to invest, to make sure that this situation is turned around, we're going to have more deaths, more neglect and more people who are harmed as a result of the situation. I'll happily take the intervention.

I'm very pleased to hear that you have faith in the new chief executive and the chair, but I just wondered if you would reflect on whether or not it is helpful to them, to improve the services that need to be improved in north Wales, by your shouting about things that occurred somewhere between six to eight years ago, when I have no doubt that the Welsh Government is working very closely with the health board to rectify these matters. But every time you stand up and go over the distressing things that took place in the past, you make it more difficult for them to attract new recruits into these services.

I'm afraid, Jenny Rathbone, we welcomed the fact that the Betsi Cadwaladr health board was placed into special measures back in June 2015. You can check the record. I was the shadow health Minister at the time and I was cheering on Mark Drakeford for taking that brave decision, because I believed, with all sincerity, that it was going to make the difference on the ground that we needed to see. It didn't. It didn't make the difference. That's why it's still got huge challenges, the Betsi Cadwaladr health board, in terms of the delivery of mental health care, even today.

I'm simply making statements of fact here. There has been no apology from the Welsh Government for its failure to respond to the Holden report back in 2013 when it was initially made available. There has been no explanation whatsoever as to why there was such a significant delay between that report being published and then the health board being placed in special measures. Essentially, the same things were happening on Hergest as happened at Tawel Fan. If the health board had been placed into special measures at the time that the Holden report was available to the Welsh Government back in 2013, then some of those things that happened on Tawel Fan could have been prevented. That is something that I believe that the Welsh Government ought to apologise for, because I think that if we could have avoided people coming to harm, then it's unacceptable simply to walk on by and to say that things have improved and not to acknowledge the harm that has been caused. And I'm afraid that's the situation we're in today in this Chamber.

I very much hope—[Interruption.] I very much hope, Deputy Minister, that you will be able to reflect on that position, on your inability to apologise to those patients and their loved ones for what's happened, and that you will continue, hopefully, to work with the health board's leadership to be able to turn this unacceptable situation, which has prevailed for far too long, around so that we can have a healthcare service for mental health patients in north Wales that we can be proud of. I want to be proud of it. I want it to be the best in the world, but the fact of the matter is it isn't.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. I will therefore defer voting on this motion until voting time.

The next item this afternoon is the Plaid Cymru debate on food poverty. I call on Luke Fletcher to move the motion.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Yet again, we have another debate tabled around poverty, a long-standing issue for this Senedd, and there are known and undeniable links between poverty and food insecurity. Given that almost a quarter of people in Wales are in poverty, it is no surprise that food insecurity is a prominent issue facing many households in Wales. There are, of course, positive actions on the horizon: free school meals for all primary school children, for example, something that, as a former recipient of free school meals, I'm immensely proud of. Knowing that, soon enough, every primary school pupil will be in receipt of free school meals and that my party and the Government came together, despite our differences, is very much something that truly moves me. And when it happens, it will no doubt be one of the proudest moments of my political career.

But I'm sure it won't surprise Members to learn that I think we still need to go further. Free school meals didn't end for me in primary school, but we have taken the first step in enshrining food and access to food as vital parts of the education experience, and that, of course, at its base level, is what we are trying to achieve with our motion. The right to food should be an inalienable right for all citizens, not just in Wales, but globally. We can't survive or thrive without it. That's why the right to food should be embedded in all policies relating to poverty.

Poverty is one of the clearest and largest factors contributing to food insecurity, and poverty has only been increasing in Wales following years of austerity, stilted economic growth following COVID-19 and Brexit, and increasing prices. We are seeing a crisis of food poverty born out of the political choices and systemic failings created over the past four decades that have brought us to a tipping point in so many of our communities. This, of course, when Wales finds itself part of the UK, one of the richest countries in the world.

In 2017 and 2018, nearly one in 10 people in Wales experienced low food security, and 14 per cent of people ran out of food before they could afford to buy more. The south Wales food poverty alliance found that households with incomes in the bottom 20 per cent in Wales would need to spend 36 per cent of their income to meet the UK Government's Eatwell guide. More people in Wales have to change their eating and buying habits for financial reasons than the UK average, and marginal food insecurity is also higher in Wales than in any other UK country. Our welfare system, our social protection system, is clearly failing to protect the most vulnerable in society by not providing enough for the necessity of food to those who need it. To truly tackle food poverty, there must be systemic change. Increasing welfare payments or support for food banks does not tackle the root cause of the issue or provide people with the dignity they're entitled to. 

If I could turn briefly to the Conservative amendments for one moment, simply getting more people into work will not solve the issue if this employment is not good or fair. More than a fifth of workers in Wales are earning less than the real living wage, and in some areas in south Wales this rises to a quarter or even a third. The majority of people living in poverty in Wales currently are in work, and one in six people referred to the Trussell Trust foodbanks in the UK were in work, which demonstrates that employment is not a guarantee out of poverty. The amendment also mentions the UK Government's Kickstart scheme for 16 to 24-year-olds who are on universal credit. It provides funding to employers to cover the national minimum wage for six months, but the national minimum wage for 18 to 20-year-olds is £6.56 an hour. How is this supposed to help a care leaver, for example, set themselves up on their own and not be worried about where their next meal will come from? It's nowhere near enough. 

On the topic of children and young people, I wanted to raise the issue of child poverty and the impact of food poverty on children. Households in Wales with children will experience more financial pressures from rising food costs and poverty than those without children. The Food Foundation estimated that there are roughly 160,000 children in Wales for whom a healthy diet is increasingly unaffordable. Three weeks ago, on 17 November, I raised the issue of Welsh child poverty in this Chamber, where I noted that, over the last financial year, 54,000 foodbank parcels went to children in Wales, compared to only 35,000 during 2017 and 2018. At that same rate, as of today, more than 3,000 food parcels would have gone to children in Wales since I made that statement. And this, of course, assuming the situation hasn't worsened, which many indicators suggest it will continue to do. 

Dirprwy Lywydd, I hope that my comments have been taken by the Conservative benches as constructive and not party political, and I say this because I think this is an issue that transcends party politics. Indeed, it is a cross-party issue. Everyone should have secure access to quality, nutritious food. I think that's something all of us can agree on, no matter our political persuasions. It's very much the philosophy of Baobab Bach in Bridgend, for example, it's the philosophy of Bridgend College, who provide free school breakfasts to their students, and it's the philosophy of other community organisations working on food poverty across Wales, many of whom we have all visited and previously mentioned in this very Chamber. 

In my closing remarks, I want to illustrate the importance of the Right to Food campaign and its cross-party nature, and pay tribute to the work already under way in Westminster by both Beth Winter MP and Ian Byrne MP, who I first met virtually at a People's Assembly panel on this very issue. Both have been working across parties to get this on the agenda in Westminster, gaining the support of Plaid MPs, SNP MPs, Labour MPs, Conservative MPs, Lib Dem MPs—and I'll stop at that point, because I think Members will get the picture there. I hope this, of course, can be replicated here in the Senedd. The fact is, we owe it to all of our constituents who live in food poverty every day of their lives to come together here and solve this issue. Diolch. 

I have selected the three amendments to the motion, and I call on Mark Isherwood to move amendments 1, 2 and 3, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. 

I move amendments 1, 2 and 3. As our amendment 1 states, every human being has a right to a nutritious and adequate food supply. Every day, people in Wales go hungry because they're in crisis. There are many reasons for this, including low income, debt, access to benefits, substance misuse and mental health.

As foodbank network the Trussell Trust state, statutory organisations are often not able to respond quickly enough to these needs, yet a short-term crisis can easily escalate into difficult and costly long-term problems such as housing loss or criminal activity. Having been made aware of the problem of hidden hunger by a local mother, the trust founders, Paddy and Carol Henderson, launched the first Trussell Trust foodbank from their garden shed in 2000. They went on to develop the principles that still hold firm today: all food should be donated, and volunteers should be entitled to administer the food and provide non-judgmental emotional support. The first associated foodbank was launched in Gloucester in 2004.

When I first met the Trussell Trust, well over a decade ago, they told me that their goal was to open new foodbanks in every UK town. I attended the opening of the Flintshire foodbank in Mold, the first Trussell Trust foodbank in Wales, nearly a decade ago. In 2014, the Trussell Trust launched an essential new programme, More Than Food, which brings other support services into foodbanks, partnering with other charities and services to offer advice on benefits, housing, budgeting, even legal advice. Alongside the Trussell Trust, the Independent Food Aid Network includes over 500 UK independent foodbanks, committed to a future in which good food is accessible to all. Bringing together the charitable, public and business sectors with communities, foodbanks provide a co-productive solution to an enduring issue.

In five months' time, Labour will have been running Wales for a quarter of a century. The Joseph Rowntree report on UK poverty published in December 2018 stated that of the four countries of the UK, Wales has consistently had the highest poverty rate for the past 20 years. Last November, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation's 'Poverty in Wales' report stated that

'Wales has lower pay for people in every sector than the rest of the UK'

and that

'Even before coronavirus, almost a quarter of people in Wales were in poverty.'

Research carried out for the UK End Child Poverty coalition published this May found that Wales has the worst child poverty rate of all the UK nations. Successive Labour Welsh Governments have failed to close the gap between the richest and poorest parts of Wales and between Wales and the rest of UK, despite having spent billions entrusted to them to tackle this on top-down programmes that did not do so. Had they done so, of course, they would have disqualified themselves from further funding.

In 2014, after another meeting with the Trussell Trust, I stated here that the trust

'told me that foodbanks are an expression of something that has been going on in the churches forever, namely feeding the hungry.'

But food poverty has been with us forever. It asked that we all worked together, putting aside whatever party political differences we may have, to focus on those in need. They told me that they would be putting this message to all parties and all agents. I pledged my support and I said to the Minister then, 'I urge you to do the same.'

UK Government measures, of course, include increasing the living wage, spending over £111 billion on welfare support for people of working age this financial year and delivering its plan for jobs, including the Kickstart programme aiming to create full-time jobs to reduce the risk of poverty. Our amendment 3 calls on the Welsh Government to work with the UK Government to deliver this in Wales. In addition, UK Research and Innovation, sponsored by the UK Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, has commissioned a research project on co-production of healthy, sustainable food systems for disadvantaged communities, led by Reading university. Working together with disadvantaged communities, this will establish effective methods for co-creation of policy, products and supply chains that can be implemented across the UK nations. As a result, every citizen will have the potential to make decisions about their food and will have access to a diet that is affordable, attractive, healthy and environmentally sustainable. We therefore call on the Welsh Government to ensure that the right to food is embedded in cross-governmental approaches to poverty. Diolch.

This is a terribly timely debate as we are in the grips of what is already a difficult winter. Citizens Advice figures show that one in five people have already cut back on their food shop in the last three months to save money. One in 10 anticipate having to access crisis support this winter, like foodbanks or fuel vouchers. Crisis support, that is, to help them have things that they need to stay alive, because food isn't a luxury, it's a fundamental necessity.

I'd like to focus a little on the mental health toll taken by hunger, because hunger doesn't just mark people physically, it isn't only measured in stunted growth or empty bellies; hunger starves people of happiness, it warps their self-esteem and it eats away at their potential. Hunger traps people in panic and distress as the constant worry about where the next meal is going to come from weighs down on a person's state of mind. It scars people psychologically and it can trigger exhaustion, embarrassment, guilt and shame.

This is a reality faced by frightening numbers of people in Wales. The 'Food Security in Wales' report showed that a fifth of our population worried about running out of food. In the past 12 months, 14 per cent of our population had run out of food before they could afford to buy more. Now, this debate focuses on the right to food, and along with food I'd package in the right to dignity and a life free from the worry about food. As the Trussell Trust's Susan Lloyd-Selby has said, no-one should face the indignity of needing emergency food. But too often in our society, poverty is instead paraded almost as a punishment.

Let's cast our minds back to last year, when the societal debate around free school meals in England made headlines, and pictures of the measly portions afforded to children in some local authorities were shared on social media. We saw halved peppers in clingfilm, handfuls of tuna or pasta in paltry little plastic bags. It seemed for all the world as though the people putting the packages together must have been instructed to limit any chance that other people in the child's family could benefit from those packages. Why else put in part of a vegetable, or open a tin of tuna and scoop out only half? It would have taken an effort to be that cruel. It would have taken time to methodically measure the exact amount of compassion and support that was afforded to each child with those parcels, limiting everything, keeping a cap on that kindness. And what message did it send? Because free school meals and food generally isn't just about nutrition. As important as that is, it should also be about a sense of plenty, of not scraping through and getting just enough to just about manage. It should be about delighting in food—not gorging or gluttony, but having enough, feeling complete.

Our relationships with food are complicated. It can be a comfort when there's enough, but it can be a menace and a torment when there isn't. The children's future food inquiry quotes Siobhan Clifford, a headteacher, in saying that children tell you about

'pains in their stomach…about going to bed hungry...headaches…tiredness…and the distorted relationship with food that that creates'.

Some children end up stealing food from the bins that other children have thrown away. There shouldn't be that dividing line that sets out that some people can have more food than they need whilst others struggle to be sustained. Environmentally, economically, socially and morally it makes no sense. It results perversely in both food waste and wanton food scarcity. Those children stealing from bins.

Dirprwy Lywydd, we need to look at our supply chains, create an affordable, sustainable food system fit for future generations, supporting local markets, co-operatives, community retailers, processors, distributors that work together to ensure high quality food standards. But whilst we're developing those supply chains, let's look as well at the links that bind us, the stock we keep of decency. No-one should go to bed hungry or driven to despair through worrying about where their meals come from. In twenty-first century Wales or in any country, it's a blight that shouldn't exist.

Food poverty exists. It certainly exists in east Swansea. What has surprised me has been foodbanks starting up in what I always thought of as the rich suburbs of west Swansea. Of the eight wards in Swansea East, six of them have foodbanks. The two that do not are very close to foodbanks in the neighbouring areas. The use of foodbanks was increasing before the COVID-19 pandemic, has effectively doubled during the pandemic, and all indications are that this situation will continue to get worse. Foodbanks in Swansea are recent; that is, mainly post 2010. Most are run by religious organisations—churches, chapels and the mosque—and others are run by people in the community who care for those around them. They have no other need than to try and help those less fortunate than themselves.

Since 2010, there's been a huge growth in foodbanks and the numbers attending. Part of this is driven by the gig economy and irregular hours. When you're working 30 and 40 hours a week and you're just about managing, when you go down to seven hours a week you're just about not managing. Of course, being ill is not allowed. That's why so many people have been unwilling to isolate during COVID. Their children would go hungry if they isolated, and that's been a problem that has not been addressed. 

If I had, 40 years ago, told my 21-year-old self that people would be going hungry in Wales, and that foodbanks were coming as the new soup kitchens, I would not have believed that could happen. I'd have said, 'Really, you don't mean 2021—you mean 1821'. People going hungry; remember those on the right who said, 'We didn't have poverty in this country, everything was okay, no-one is going hungry'. Well, that's changed, hasn't it? People are now food hungry. The cruel cut in universal benefit has made matters a lot worse for many families. I'll record a few examples of food poverty. The mother who had not eaten for three days so that her children could eat, who on being given food at a foodbank immediately opened and ate a tin of beans. The woman who told me that a way to keep your stomach full was to eat toilet paper, or other paper, which would then fill you up. Or someone asking at the foodbank for no food that needs heating because they cannot afford to heat it up. Welcome to twenty-first century Wales. 

It could have been different if the Lib Dems had decided to side with Labour and not the Conservatives in 2010, bringing in a decade of austerity. And 'austerity' is such a neutral word. What is has meant is many going cold and hungry. That's why many of us have been asking for free school meals to be expanded into the summer holiday. That's why many of us have been asking for the expansion of free school meals to primary school pupils, except those in fee-paying schools.

Finally, I donate and collect for the local foodbanks, and I thank the South Wales Evening Post for publishing my requests, and can I also thank all those people who give to help others? However, I look forward to a society where foodbanks are not needed, where no-one goes hungry. I've been told that this is a bizarre new utopia. I have said it isn't—it was what the 1960s and 1970s Wales that I grew up in was like, and I hope that we move back to that as soon as possible. 

It's a desperate situation where access to food is out of reach for many people in one of the wealthiest countries in the world. I welcome the commitment to free school meals in the co-operation agreement. I also welcome the commitment of the Government to universal basic income. A report published by the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales found that universal basic income would decrease overall poverty rates in Wales by 50 per cent, and child poverty would decrease by 64 per cent, bringing it to a rate of under 10 per cent. That's down from its current position at 28 per cent.

In preparing for this debate, I learned about food deserts, which actually describe one in five communities in Wales. If you live in a food desert, you will find it difficult to access affordable, fresh food. That could be because you're reliant on smaller shops which are local, which are obviously known to charge more for the same products. That's because you can't access reliable public transport. And that's the same in rural areas like Pembrokeshire or Ceredigion as it is in urban Cardiff.

And food poverty and food insecurity will be all the worse because of Brexit. Our farmers and our food producers are committed to producing good quality food, but they need support, not deals with Australia, which will deliver poor quality food. The situation is not just about food poverty. It's also a combination of Brexit, COVID and also climate change, and deep social inequalities, regional insecurities, and economic austerity and recession. This all means that those families already facing huge financial pressures, reliant on foodbanks, without access to fresh food, paying more in small local shops, will be hit hardest by the Conservatives' bad Brexit deal. It's going to spell trouble for families facing a cost-of-living crisis already; and for our food systems, it means that they are being undermined; for our retailers, who have had to have their calls to building greater stability ignored by Westminster. So, like last week, I'm going to urge the Welsh Government to go further and faster on ideas like universal basic income and a debt bonfire, to ease immediate pressures on families, as well as looking at what can be done to build food security and access to food into policies and planning in the longer term. I welcome the cross-governmental policy approach, in this motion, to food poverty, and I would also welcome a cross-party approach. The Trussell Trust's phrase is,

'We will create a UK without the need for food banks'.

And that's what we should all aim for. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Hear hear, Jane Dodds. I completely agree with your final sentiment there. As we are all too aware from our own constituencies and regions, foodbank usage had been increasing for years prior to the pandemic, with the Trussell Trust reporting that the demand for foodbanks in their network increased 128 per cent between 2015 and 2020. During the pandemic, this has rapidly and significantly increased, with the Trussell Trust reporting an increase of 11 per cent in demand between 1 April 2021 and 30 September 2021, compared to the same period in 2019. In Wales, the Trussell Trust distributed over 145,828 emergency three-day food parcels to households in Wales over the past financial year. Let that figure sink in: 145,828 emergency three-day food parcels over the course of one year here in Wales.

In my own region of South Wales Central, I'd like to give just a few examples. Taff-Ely foodbank recently shared that from April to September, they gave out 1,163 foodbank parcels, and that 397 of these were for children. In October, the Vale foodbank noted that it had been open for 10 years, and during that time had provided 36,000 food parcels to local people in crisis. And please note the word 'noted', rather than 'celebrated' reaching this milestone, as there is nothing to celebrate in the fact that foodbanks have had to become so commonplace throughout Wales. I would hope that we are all united in the view that under no circumstances should foodbanks become an institutionalised fixture of Welsh society. 

These figures alone do not fully explain the scale of foodbank use in Wales, as the figures only relate to foodbanks in the Trussell Trust network, and not the hundreds of independent food aid providers and community groups also providing support, such as Rhondda Foodshare and the community pantry in Cilfynydd. And isn't is cruelly ironic that whilst 200,000 children and their families go hungry in Wales, we simultaneously have a huge issue with food waste, with approximately 500,000 tonnes of food wasted here in Wales annually? Globally, it is estimated that this is 1.3 billion tonnes of food wasted or lost each year—a third of all the total food produced for humans. I was horrified to read in a recent article in The National by Leanne Wood that at a recent meeting held between UK Government Ministers and major supermarkets, Tesco admitted that 50 tonnes of edible food was being binned every week due to driver shortages.

Whilst previous Welsh Government initiatives have successfully helped to reduce food waste, I'm sure we all agree that there is more to do, and measures the Welsh Government could explore to tackle the issue include encouraging all Welsh businesses to commit to target, measure and act on food waste; urging businesses in Wales to demonstrate their social responsibility by signing the Courtauld 2024 commitment to tackle food waste and support redistribution; and also, we could include food waste as a factor in the Welsh Government's economic contract.

I'd like to conclude my contribution this afternoon with a reflection on why I'm supporting today's motion. Whilst dropping off a few donations to a foodbank—something all of us have undoubtedly done—can be a visible demonstration of support to tackle food insecurity and hunger, as politicians, this isn't enough. Today's motion commits all of us to do all that is in our power to ensure that everyone has access to nutritious food to eat. No-one should be going hungry in Wales in 2021. Neither should food aid be replacing the dignity and choice afforded to those on higher incomes, such as ourselves. Whilst thanking foodbanks and their volunteers for all that they do, let us also commit today to working to ensure that they do not need to exist. That will be a time to celebrate.

I speak in support of the main motion, backing the right to food. The right to food was set out in the United Nations international covenant on economic, social and cultural rights, which the UK Government ratified way back in 1976, and it says: 

'The right to adequate food is realized when every man, woman and child, alone or in community with others, has physical and economic access at all times to adequate food or means for its procurement'.

It goes on to say that achieving food security for all is therefore a prerequisite for the realisation of this human right. On this definition—this legal definition—we are failing in the duties under the UN covenant on the right to food, as the growth in foodbanks is testament.

Back in 2010, when I was an MP, when Labour was then in Government, there was one foodbank operating in my constituency of Ogmore—one. It was in Bethel Baptist Church in Pontyclun. We now have foodbanks in every single community. Statistics from the Trussell Trust network highlight the growing demand for foodbanks since 2010 and the age of austerity. And over the past couple of years, it has deepened further by the impact of the pandemic. Some will say, as we've heard here today, that the growth in foodbanks in Ogmore and across the UK is, indeed, testimony to the generosity of volunteers and donations from the public. It undoubtedly is. But let's not hide from the fact that this is also a terrible, terrible, terrible indictment of a decade of punishing, punitive austerity and welfare policies that force the vulnerable, including working families, to rely on foodbanks. And it's a continuing failure, which has been made worse during the pandemic. Anyone who volunteers in a foodbank will say, 'This is a signal of failure by political leaders that they exist at all.' They have to be there; they do not want to be there.

Last year, the Trussell Trust provided its latest report, as has been referred to. It showed the deepening impact of the pandemic on those already devastated by a decade of austerity and social security cuts and diminished support for the low paid. It was bad enough through the 2010s, but foodbanks are now providing 130 per cent more emergency food parcels than they were five years ago. Distribution of emergency food parcels increased by a third on the previous year alone, with 2.5 million emergency food parcels in the twenty-first century distributed to people in crisis over the year. In Wales, the increase is up from nearly 88,000 five years ago to 146,000 emergency food parcels in Wales this year. It's an average of two parcels per minute distributed to families with children—a year-on-year increase of 36 per cent. In Wales, one parcel was given to a family every 10 minutes. This is a disgrace. And this is a tiny part of the whole sorry picture. Not included, as has been mentioned, are the additional over 500 independent food aid providers supported through the Independent Food Aid Network, as well as a range of community food providers also seeing similar patterns. Now, we don't have all the levers at our disposal in Welsh Government to solve this deepening problem, but we do have powerful tools that can help fill the hunger gap left by UK-wide policies. 

The additional £52 million funding from Welsh Government to ensure that eligible pupils receive provision in lieu of their usual free school meals whilst not able to attend school during the pandemic—that really helped, and I saw it on the ground in my own constituency. The additional £5 million for the school holiday enrichment programme too—I've visited those schemes in my own patch; I've seen them work and I've seen the good they do. I recently visited Big Bocs Bwyd—the BBB project—which covers the Valleys taskforce area. It's helping children develop an early understanding of healthy food choices, whilst providing affordably priced food to families in communities in need of support. We can see this in places like Garth school in the Llynfi valley in my constituency; it's making a positive difference already.

Of course, as has been mentioned, we welcome the announcement in the co-operation agreement between the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru to put in place arrangements over the next few years to provide a nutritious free school meal to all primary school pupils in Wales—all of them—so that no child should ever be at school hungry, and the Welsh Government's support in my own patch for the incredible food pantry initiative in my area and other parts of the Valleys, delivering thousands of bags of affordable food to residents in Bridgend.

We need the UK Government to play their part; otherwise, we are always swimming against a tide that sweeps away the vulnerable and the low paid. But there is no doubt that we can also do much ourselves through an active Welsh Government, focused on food poverty as well as overall poverty, and the support of this Senedd. Let's make the right to food real for all.

Thank you to Plaid Cymru and Luke Fletcher for introducing the debate today. If I may, I'd like to use my contribution to expand the scope of the original motion away from just the impact of the cost of living on food poverty. It's important that we consider the wide range of socioeconomic factors that can influence whether a person can access food and what food they can access, and it's the very last point I made that I'd like to focus on in particular. It's something that has been discussed as part of my food Bill proposal, discussed in here not too long ago, which I'm pleased Members supported.

I know we all agree that food poverty is totally unacceptable and it doesn't need to be. We need to see action by all Governments to deliver a more prosperous future for all people, not just here in Wales but the UK as a whole. But in Wales we can do more. We need to do more—and I'm not going to try to find lots of people to blame—because these things are in our gift. As people in this place, it's in our gift to make a difference and to do things. Fine words are fine, but actions are what makes a real difference, and we have the power to do these things.

It was back in 2016 that a report from the Public Policy Institute for Wales argued that, and I quote:

'The rise in food poverty, perhaps more than any other arena of food policy, demonstrates the multidimensional nature of food and the challenges this creates for policy makers.'

I think this is why we need an overarching, holistic food strategy for Wales—one that brings together the various approaches. There are many third sector organisations across the country doing some fantastic work, but we could bring them together into a unified approach that deals with the structural issues as well as the socioeconomic ones. Because food poverty takes many forms; it's not just about the ability to buy food, but what food a person can access. There's a stark difference between the ability to buy fast food and ready meals, for instance, and the ability to buy and use good quality, nutritious food. This is where we need to consider how things like schools and colleges can improve food education, so that people know how to use food in a beneficial way, as I raised earlier this afternoon with the Minister for education.

We also need to consider how food producers can take more responsibility to ensure that their produce meets the well-being goals, as well as how we get this local, healthy produce to market stalls and supermarket shelves. This is where things like local food plans can play a role. And, yes, we do need to consider how we make this food more affordable and attractive to people, as well as ensuring that people can buy the food in the first place.

To conclude, Llywydd, I welcome the opportunity to take part in this debate today, and I hope Members have found my comments to be constructive. Ultimately, every human being has a right to a nutritious and adequate food supply, as Mark Isherwood pointed out in starting, but the causes of food poverty are complex and inextricably linked to the form and function of the food industry itself. If we are finally to tackle food poverty, that's where I think we need to start. Diolch.

As we approach Christmas, this debate is particularly timely, and we've heard those words a lot this evening. But it reminds us of those who will go with nothing over the festive period. For these people, there will be no gifts, no feasting—there won't even be hidden parties that they can deny they attended. The best that most can hope for is a roof over their heads, enough heat to keep them warm, and enough food in their stomachs to alleviate some of the pain of hunger. As this debate notes, almost a quarter of the people of Wales live in poverty. That is a frightening indictment of the status quo in this nation in the twenty-first century. It's also a strong motivation for us to call for change, and ultimately independence, because we can do so much better than this. The people of Wales deserve better than this.

The grim and meteoric rise of foodbanks has a Dickensian feel about it. It pains me that so many people in Wales are in poverty, and so many are unable to do anything about it. This is true of older people who are on a fixed income and have no opportunity to increase it. Foodbanks have been an important safety net for people on or under the breadline, but older people find it harder to access foodbanks due to mobility and accessibility issues. Hunger among our pensioner population is of particular concern to our health service, because undernutrition is one of the leading causes of functional decline and mortality among older people. Undernutrition in older people can lead to poorer health outcomes, falls and fractures, delays in recovery from illness, and longer periods in hospital to name but a few.

It's no surprise, therefore, that those entering hospital with undernutrition more than doubled in the seven years to 2017, with high rates among older people between 60 and 69 years of age. Since the publication of those figures, we've had another four years of a Tory Government in Westminster. Their reforms in the welfare state have led to significant cuts in public expenditure, social care for older people and in community services. This is having a direct impact on spending here in Wales. Once again, this is an example of the Tories in Westminster showing that they know the price of everything, but do nothing. As we saw over the past few days, they don't even know the value of being open and transparent.

To return to foodbanks, one of the most upsetting aspects of this operation are the food parcels that are ready to eat straight away. Why, you might ask, is this upsetting or even necessary? It’s because some people do not have access to cooking facilities, or are unable to afford to turn the electric or gas on to cook the food. How many pensioners will be facing this problem this winter due exorbitant fuel costs that are set to increase yet again this year? We should do better than this. We can do better than this. We must do better than this. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much. Thank you very much for mentioning these people who are unable to turn on the cooker, because that’s something that I was told about when I visited the Building Communities Trust project up in Trowbridge and St Mellons recently—that some people are having to spend so much money on heating their damp homes that they don’t have enough money to pay for the cooker. I’m really worried about that, but also wanting to know a great deal more, because I think, whilst the oven is very expensive, turning on a cooker really isn’t using up that much gas or electric, and I really want to unpick this problem, because, really, people are not feeding themselves properly in the winter months if they can’t cook and eat a hot meal.

It really is a very, very significant issue, and one that I feel we really do need to unpick, because fast food is very expensive when you actually consider its poor nutritional value. And you have to compare—. It gives instant gratification, but it doesn’t nourish people. So, I think there is a lot of complexity to this problem, which I think was very much recognised by Peter Fox. This isn't just the appalling cut in benefits and the deliberate policies of the UK Government to keep benefits at a much lower rate than the increase in the cost of living, but I think it really is about changing our relationship with food.

I have a constituent who works tirelessly with young people, and has done for about 30 years, on getting them to do sports. He's one of a family of 12, and he said, 'Well, we were always poor, but we were happy at Christmas so long as we had some apples and some tangerines.' And in those days, tangerines were a rarity, not a year-round thing; they were a treat. One of the problems here is that we live in a society where there's so much plenty all over the place, and it's described to us on our television screens every single night and everybody can see it. Everybody watches television, even if they can't afford to turn the cooker on. That is part of the problem.

One third of all our food in this country is wasted. We cannot say that we live in the same sort of food desert as they live in in Eritrea or other places that are affected by climate change; this problem is much more complicated than that. That doesn't mean to say that the benefits aren't set deliberately too low, and that people are in these short-term contracts, zero-hours contracts that make it really, really difficult for people to budget, and they inevitably get into debt. That is one of the reasons why they have to resort to foodbanks, because they genuinely have had to use whatever wages they've had that week in order to pay back the debts that they've acquired when they weren't in work. That's one of the problems with universal credit: it goes up and down like a yo-yo, and there's so little certainty to it.

I just want to home in a little bit on the amendment by the Conservatives, because you've asked to delete the second paragraph of the motion, which talks about the rise and rise of foodbanks. I just wonder why you're not prepared to accept that there has been this rise and rise of foodbanks, because we can all produce huge amounts of evidence to say that there has been. I also think it goes back to something that I challenged Gareth about yesterday, which is about does the UK Government do child rights impact assessments. I'm sure they don't, simply because you only have to look at the way in which they've reduced absolutely the value of child benefit, which is the final thing that all mothers can rely on, even when everything else has gone out the window, when their relationships have broken down and they've had to flee a violent household. In April 2010, it was £20.30 for the first child and £13.40 for any subsequent child; now, it's £21.15 for the first child and £14 for subsequent children. So, that's an 85p increase in 11 years for the first child, and 60p for any subsequent children. And anybody who goes shopping will know that food prices have gone up hugely—hugely—just in the last few months as a result of us leaving the European Union, mainly, and yet—. That is one of the main sources of poverty.

You'll need to bring your contribution to a close now, please.

I will bring my contribution to a close. This is a complex problem and there's a great deal more that we need to do, but at least feeding children in schools—all children—is going to at least ensure all children are properly fed.

A few weeks ago, I had the honour to meet the volunteers at the Kings Storehouse foodbank in Rhyl. The Kings Storehouse in an independent foodbank run by volunteers from the Wellspring Christian Centre. It was founded in 2012 when the church saw people locally who had fallen on hard times, many through no fault of their own, and the church members rose to the challenge to try and assist. It was initially supported just by the members of the Wellspring church, who, every time they went shopping, would buy extra items of food or essentials and bring them to church each Sunday. They also have a trolley at Sainsbury's in Rhyl, where shoppers can have the opportunity to fill up the trolley and then proceeds are duly donated to the foodbank. It's also getting great support from local businesses, organisations and members of the public.

The implications of Plaid's motion and the perception amongst the wider public are that foodbanks shouldn't exist, or that they are a new phenomenon. This ignores the history, because churches and charities have always supported those in need within their communities. From the very founding of the Christian faith on these shores, helping those in need was at the core of the faith. Valle Crucis abbey in Denbighshire was established by Cistercian monks who grew food to give to the poor. Those entering monastic life gave up their worldly goods to pursue an oath of poverty, and any riches collected were used to help those in need. These principles have survived down the ages—

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, certainly.

Thank you. Do you think it is only the job of churches and voluntary organisations to provide the safety net, as you say, for those in most need?

Well, if the Member listens to the duration of my contribution, you'll see how it'll naturally come around to answer your query. [Laughter.] So, one must be patient, as they say. [Laughter.]

Today's foodbanks come in many shapes and sizes. In an ideal world, we would have no poverty, but we don't live in an ideal world. Sadly, families find themselves in hardship through no fault of their own, and, thankfully, foodbanks exist for these times. But the fact that these organisations exist has been weaponised for political gain. There is a public perception that foodbanks shouldn't be needed in today's society and that their existence is a result of political failings. This perception and stigma diminish the hard work of foodbanks like the Kings Storehouse and prevent—[Interruption.] I'm coming, I'm coming around. And prevents those in need from using the services. And foodbanks shouldn't be demonised.

Even if a quarter of our population weren't living in poverty, there would be still times that people needed a helping hand. This is what Pastor Mark Jones of the Wellspring church taught me on my visit to the facility in Rhyl, he said, 'The foodbank's motto is "A hand up, not a handout," as we understand that anyone can go through a time of crisis that requires short-term intervention, and no-one should be ashamed of receiving the help they need.'

Would you give way on that?

Yes, certainly. Certainly.

Could you simply explain to me, who has seen the rise in foodbanks—? And I commend the volunteers and the people who donate, I really do. But could you just explain to me and my constituents why those crisis moments have exponentially exploded since 2010?

Well—[Laughter.]

Just tell us. Just tell us why.

Well, I—

Population growth.

Population growth? [Members of the Senedd: 'Oh.'] Unbelievable. 

I'm trying to add to the debate. I'm adding to the debate, and—

Okay. Allow the Member to continue.

I can obviously see the Member's passion and the cases in his constituency, and I have exactly the same in mine. Rhyl is one of the most deprived areas in the country, in Wales and most of the UK, so I'm not going to take any lectures from Members from south Wales on issues in my constituency. So, the Member's very rich to be saying to me, 'Oh, well'—preaching about issues in Rhyl from Members in the Valleys. So—[Members of the Senedd: 'Oh.']

Foodbanks exist to help those in times of crisis, and I repeat they are not the enemy. Poverty is—poverty is the enemy—and, sadly, the Welsh Government, supported by Plaid on those benches, for the last two decades, have done nothing to tackle poverty in Wales. EU anti-poverty funds were squandered, cheap foreign labour was prioritised over creating high-paid jobs for those living in Wales, and if they spent less time on constitutional issues and pet projects and more and more transforming our economy, then maybe one in four of our citizens in Wales wouldn't be below the poverty line that they're in today. Thank you very much.

The Minister for Social Justice to contribute. Jane Hutt.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to start by thanking Plaid Cymru for tabling this very important debate today, which, of course, is a motion we will support, as we do face a serious situation when charities like the Trussell Trust have warned that many low-income households will face very stark choices for themselves and their families this winter. And that's been very much reflected in this powerful debate.

I have to say that, when the UK Government announced its plan to remove the £20 uplift for universal credit, it was the Trussell Trust that provided research, surveying people who would be affected by that proposed cut, which then went ahead. One in four people said they would very likely need to skip meals if the cut to universal credit went ahead, and that cut did go ahead, despite strong representations made in this Chamber by this Welsh Labour Government, across the UK, cross-party Tory voices as well, and from those charities that work at the forefront of tackling child poverty. And demand for emergency food provision has increased significantly and continues to grow as vulnerable households experience the economic fallout from the pandemic—we recognise that across the Chamber—rising levels of debt, increases in the cost of living, all of which have had an adverse impact. But, in this powerful debate on tackling food poverty, we do need to consider the causes as well as the responsibilities for taking appropriate action. 

The key levers for reducing levels of poverty in Wales, powers over the tax and welfare system, sit with the UK Government. Nevertheless, there is much we can do as a Welsh Government to prevent poverty, reduce its impact and tackle the inequalities that arise from living in poverty. And our programme for government sets out our commitment to protect, rebuild and develop our services for vulnerable people and improve outcomes for low-income households. Our support for the social wage, through initiatives such as the childcare offer, our council tax reduction scheme, the provision of free school meals—and I'll go on to that—have had the effect of leaving more money in the pockets of Welsh citizens.

And I do join Luke Fletcher, who opened this debate so powerfully, and Members across the Chamber, on this side, in welcoming the co-operation agreement between the Labour Government and Plaid Cymru, with Jane Dodds's support for that commitment to extend free school meals to all primary school pupils over the lifetime of the agreement. And this is transformational action. It will ensure no child in primary school is left hungry. It will be key to tackling child poverty, reducing the inequalities of outcome linked to socioeconomic disadvantage. The provision of a healthy meal as part of the school day will help to encourage healthy eating habits and attitudes, and it's practical learning that will be reinforced by the new curriculum for Wales, the health and well-being area of learning and experience, helping learners understand the factors that affect physical health and well-being, including health-promoting behaviours, such as nutrition and a balanced diet.

During the summer, I met with those running the Wrexham holiday play scheme at Caia Park and visited, in Mike Hedges's constituency, the Faith in Families project at the family centre in Bonymaen. And what was important was speaking to the parents who were fully engaged in that project and had self-esteem and encouragement that they were able to support their families and look to opportunities for their own training, further education and employment. I was able to understand the vital work done in those communities, and many of you have highlighted them from projects you're supporting across this Chamber.

There's no doubt that the universal roll-out of free school meals to primary pupils will relieve some of those financial pressures being experienced by many of the families they support. But also, importantly, that free school meals commitment will enable us to use our levers to drive public procurement and to increase local food production—I'm sure Peter Fox will be encouraged by that—and distribution. It will, in turn, benefit local economies, ecologies and communities. And it will take place alongside the development of the community food strategy, with food as the common factor. It has the potential to improve the mental and physical health of Welsh citizens, and Delyth Jewell raised this important point. It can also bring about those benefits to society—economic, environmental, sustainable benefits to help regenerate our communities.

And we have, for the third year running, allocated £2 million to community food organisations to help tackle food poverty and address food insecurity. We've increased our funding to FareShare to £500,000 this year and, over the last decade, they've distributed the equivalent of 11 million meals to those in need, and currently provide quality surplus food to around 180 community organisations and charities in Wales, and many of those are very positive in the way that they are engaging with their communities to provide accessible food. I'm very pleased that Huw Irranca-Davies mentioned Big Bocs Bwyd, which actually has made an award-winning start in Barry primary schools, rolling out the project to more than 20 schools in the Valleys regional park area. And of course, also understanding that FareShare food and imaginative engagement, which is what they use, provides affordable food to families, but it builds a wider appreciation of the connections between food, nature and the economy. But also, as part of the £51 million household support fund last month, £1.1 million will go to tackle food poverty, helping those food banks that you all support across Wales with those immediate pressures that they're facing.

We know that having insufficient money is the root cause of food poverty, so this is important if we link it to the national benefits take-up campaign, raising people's awareness of the financial support they're entitled to, and encouraging them to phone Advicelink Cymru for free help and advice, maximising incomes, and our winter fuel support scheme will see £38 million go to support households in receipt of working-age, means-tested welfare benefits to meet the immediate pressures on living costs this winter. In fact, we discussed that last week in the debate on fuel poverty. And we have our discretionary assistance fund. These are all the levers, the ways in which the Welsh Government can both choose to prioritise the way we spend our resource. Our discretionary assistance fund is crucial in helping people in financial crisis to meet some of those financial challenges they face, including meeting the cost of food and fuel. And in March, we announced a further £10.5 million to continue the unprecedented support for those who need the discretionary assistance fund and need those flexibilities, which we are continuing as a result of the adverse impact of the pandemic.

We're also taking steps to increase the take-up of Healthy Start vouchers—and I am, in fact, meeting with Lynne Neagle, the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being—knowing that these can also provide young families on low incomes with £4.25 each week to buy milk, vitamins and foods that improve the nutritional intake of children. We're clear on our commitment to tackle poverty. It is a cross-cutting theme in our budget planning process. It will help ensure poverty is at the heart of policy and service delivery, but I have to say that this is a time today when we do have to look at who is responsible, what are the causes, and there have been damaging decisions made by the UK Government, such as cuts to welfare support and more than 11 years of austerity that have plunged more vulnerable households in Wales into poverty.

We will take our responsibility as a Welsh Government, and I hope the UK Government and the party, and the Welsh Conservatives, will take their responsibilities as well. We have the evidence: Trussell Trust, Children in Wales, the Bevan Foundation, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation. If we play our part with our powers and resources, the UK Government must play their much bigger part. I welcome and support this motion and debate. Diolch.

Sioned Williams to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Llywydd, and I'd like to thank everyone who's contributed to this afternoon's debate and encourage you to support the motion. It's good to hear from the Minister that the Government will be supporting our motion, because the essence of this motion is that we should aim not only towards creating a more sustainable and fairer food system for our people, but that this should be established as a basic human right and incorporated into policies and activities of Government. After all, what could be more of a fundamental duty of Government to its people than to ensure a right not only to a sustainable food supply which is nutritious and adequate, but also the right to health, and there is nothing more fundamental to health than an adequate supply of healthy food. We heard from Luke Fletcher about the importance of ensuring that the right to food should be an integral part of the education system and that poverty and food poverty impacts children particularly. Heledd Fychan mentioned how the Welsh Government could do more to tackle food waste through, for example, including conditions in economic contracts. And we were reminded very powerfully by Delyth Jewell that this is a very timely debate. It is a time of crisis, as we've heard from many Members here this afternoon, and going without food affects you not only physically, but mentally and spiritually.

Heledd Fychan and Mike Hedges mentioned the use of foodbanks, and Mike Hedges mentioned that this was happening in areas that are considered to be relatively prosperous now. There were some heartbreaking examples of people going without essential food. I was extremely concerned to hear Gareth Davies missing the point of this debate entirely in his contribution by saying that he wants to see foodbanks, and therefore the poverty and the need that makes foodbanks a necessity, continue. He said,

'In an ideal world', we wouldn't need foodbanks. It's a lack of political will that we don't live in an ideal world.

Jane Dodds mentioned those areas that are food deserts, where it is impossible to access nutritious, affordable food. This is important, and things like public transport policy do contribute to this picture and the problems faced by these communities. I was very pleased—. Sorry, Mike.

You said 'an ideal world'. Some of us know it as the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s.

Not always for women, but there we are.

Peter Fox spoke very powerfully on this need for local food plans, and I welcome that idea very warmly. Peredur Owen Griffiths and Jenny Rathbone highlighted this problem of people not being able to afford the fuel to cook their food, and the importance of changing our relationship with food. It's difficult to believe, isn't it, that, with the UK being one of the most wealthy nations in the world, many people have difficulty in affording food, and their health suffers as a result of that.

I'm the granddaughter of a miner, and they were on strike in 1926, and I've heard the stories about the hardship and food shortages at that time from my grandmother. It's difficult to believe that, almost a century later—many people mentioned this—we are talking about a level of need that requires that community collaboration that kept the families of workers from starvation in the 1920s and 1930s.

I volunteer with my local foodbank, The Pantry, in Pontardawe, and the way the community comes together to try and ensure that people have enough to eat is inspiring. We're not criticising foodbanks in any way whatsoever, but in reality their existence in this day and age is repulsive.

Our motion talks about the right to food, and Huw Irranca-Davies spoke powerfully about this, and the importance of the fact that it is a right and how governments and political leaders have failed in their duty to support that right. Since devolution, Wales has often taken pride in the bold steps that it has taken in terms of rights, such as children's rights, which we heard mentioned in this Chamber yesterday. One of the United Nations' global sustainable development goals is to eradicate famine by 2030, an aim that is acknowledged by this Government in its supplementary report to the UK's voluntary national review of progress towards the sustainable development goals and the statement that we in Wales are doing things differently is lauded in that report. The foreword, in the name of Mark Drakeford and Jane Hutt, notes that the UN's sustainable development goals set out an ambitious agenda for transforming the world for people, the planet and prosperity.

'We share this ambition in Wales and we are committed to making our contribution to the goals',

states our First Minister and our Minister for Social Justice and equalities. Bearing in mind that commitment, the Welsh Government needs to ensure that the right to food is an integral part of policies across Government that tackle poverty and economic deprivation.

I want to remind you once again why this is so crucial, by repeating what we note in our motion, namely that a quarter of the people of Wales are living in poverty and the use of foodbanks is increasing, and food insecurity is having a detrimental impact on the health and well-being of our people. And yes, food insecurity is a matter of public health protection. We've heard from Peredur Owen Griffiths how this can have a detrimental impact on the health of older people, and that those who experience food insecurity are more likely to keep food for longer and eat food where it's gone beyond the date where it's safe to eat. This, along with going without food or eating an unbalanced diet, can, of course, emerge from poverty and puts people at risk of malnutrition, food poisoning and ill health. How many times over the past few months have we heard references in this Chamber to the perfect storm of diminishing income and increasing living costs, to the tsunami of need that is gradually emerging and is about to hit too many of our households? The link between food prices increasing as people's income declines is clear for all to see, and the way in which food is part of this worrying equation is central to our debate this afternoon. It is known that nutrition in diet reduces as these factors emerge, and as that happens, the likelihood of ill health increases, as well as the negative impact on existing medical conditions, as Peredur mentioned.

In conclusion, therefore, I urge you to support our demands on the UK Government and the Welsh Government to commit to deliver their most fundamental duty: to feed their people and to put tackling poverty at the top of every agenda. One can't deny that there is something very wrong with our society. We must ensure that there is no barrier to people enjoying the most fundamental of their human rights—the right to food. Thank you.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will therefore defer voting on the motion until voting time. 

We now reach voting time, and we'll take a short break to prepare for the vote.

That brings us to voting time for today. The first vote is on the Welsh Conservatives debate on mental health services, and I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 28, no abstentions, 28 against. As is required under Standing Order 6.20, I exercise my casting vote to vote against the motion. So, the result of the vote is that there were 28 in favour, no abstentions, 29 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

I now call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 28, no abstentions, 28 against. And therefore, I will use my casting vote to vote against the amendment. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

I now call for a vote on the motion—. But we don't need a further vote on the motion, as the amendment was not agreed. Okay. Right.

We'll move on to the vote on the Plaid Cymru debate on food poverty, and I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 41, no abstentions and 15 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed, so we will not vote on the amendments, and that's the final vote for today.

The short debate is next. I will allow some time for those Members who are leaving the Chamber if they choose to do so, and please do so quietly. Today's debate is to be moved by Rhys ab Owen.

Would you like me to begin now? Thank you very much, Llywydd. I have agreed to give a minute to my colleague Mabon ap Gwynfor. 

The Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 was passed in this Chamber six years ago. Its aim was to embed in our law, our public bodies and our culture, seven well-being goals and five sustainable development principles. These five principles were to be put at the heart of every decision by a public body in Wales—every goal and every activity as well. The principles of long-term thinking, integration, preventing harm, collaboration and participation were there to help us as a nation to achieve sustainable goals.

It's no wonder that this ambitious and wide-reaching Act was credited as the envy of the world by the Government and many others at the time and subsequently. That's why our future generations commissioner, Sophie Howe, was called by the United Nations to help them in their planning for a similar commissioner role modelled on Wales. That's why, when Lord John Bird, the co-founder of The Big Issue, brought forth a Bill in the House of Lords, he praised the Welsh model for leading the way. That's why, when the Irish foreign Minister visited us last month, he said that the Act was inspirational. It's evident, Llywydd, that Wales isn't just making ripples, it's making waves in the world.

The Act coincides with a real need for long-term thinking, which has, rightly and about time, come to the forefront recently. The COVID pandemic and the climate emergency have highlighted the need for long-term thinking to mitigate our destructive short-termism—the need to forward plan our environmental strategy to fit future needs, to forward plan on housing policies to protect our communities and to support our young people and to forward plan to make sure that we here in Wales have a democracy that is strong, robust and reflective of Welsh society. All of these and more are things that the future generations of Wales should inherit from us—a prosperous Wales, a resilient Wales, a Wales of cohesive communities and of vibrant cultures.

This is what the future generations Act was supposed to accomplish. But, after six years, and many court cases later, we see that the Act does not have the necessary powers to achieve its laudable objectives. I will concede that the Act, to an extent, has changed the way that we think. Some Welsh councils have declared a nature emergency and some other public bodies have taken some positive steps to be greener. But, this doesn't go far enough. It is meaningless to have declarations and the best intentions if specific actions do not follow. It is meaningless to acknowledge objectives if they can be avoided when they are inconvenient. It is meaningless to have even the most ambitious Act if it cannot be used to hold public bodies to account when they breach that Act.

In the auditor general's study into the future generations Act, he concluded that public bodies overwhelmingly focus on improving economic and social well-being over environmental and cultural objectives. We shouldn't need reminding, Llywydd, that COP26 again stressed the importance of enshrining environmental sustainability into everyday thinking and everyday planning. There is little point to plan and to strategise about anything else unless we tackle the climate emergency, and I'm so pleased that the co-operation agreement between the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru is looking to the possibility of reaching net zero by 2035. Yet, for that to happen, environmental sustainability needs to be at the very heart of every aspect of our lives, from Government to civil society, and seeing where we can do better. 

These principles were the roots of the Act, but the Act is yet to blossom, and that is because the Act has not had the opportunity to deliver its true potential.

I fear the Act has become some sort of a tick-box exercise. Local government and public bodies will say that they've considered it, that they've considered the future, and then move on regardless with their present plans. If asked, they will be able to show that they considered the Act whilst making decisions, but I'm unconvinced that they would be able to show that the Act influenced their decision. There seems to be no clear understanding by public bodies of what the Act requires them to do. Plainly, there hasn't been a real cultural shift, a shift of thinking, a shift of doing. I was happy to hear in a recent Welsh Government statement that they were redoubling their efforts to correct this and to accelerate the change needed to help refocus public bodies. However, this shift into real change within our communities needs to strengthen communities. One way to do that would be to give enforceability powers to the Act. What's the point of an Act if we cannot penalise anyone for breaching it? Public bodies can have wanton disregard to this Act and yet face no real consequences. Acts of Parliament ought to be enforceable and not merely aspirational.

Unlike the Welsh Language Commissioner, the future generations commissioner has no powers to punish public bodies that have breached their duties. The future generations commissioner has no powers to stop things from happening or to make them happen. On many occasions, and I'm sure this is true for other Members, local campaigners have approached me and have been very critical of the commissioner—for not doing enough, and that she hasn't supported them—but the truth is that the commissioner is blameless, she doesn't have the power to make the difference that's needed.

Many people, both inside this Chamber and outside it, have criticised this Act for its lack of enforceability. When a Labour backbencher, our own Counsel General, argued that the Act was far too loose and too woolly when he was debating it in its first reading, can we really tell ourselves here now, can we really tell the people of Wales, that it has become less woolly since? We simply can't. It was true then and subsequent court hearings have shown it to be true now. It was hoped that the Act could be used by local communities within judicial review hearings, yet that has not been the case.

Can we tell the students of Cymer Afan Comprehensive that the future generations Act is watertight and protects their cohesive community? When parents of students at the school tried to implement the Act against the closure of their school back in March 2019, it failed; it failed at the first hurdle. The High Court judge Mrs Justice Lambert argued that the Act could not trigger a judicial review. She went further, and said in her decision that the Act was

'deliberately vague, general and aspirational and which applies to a class rather than individuals.'

As such, she said:

'judicial review is not the appropriate means of enforcing such duties.'

Now, I’m not commenting whether these cases would have succeeded in the judicial review applications, but they should have had the opportunity to put that argument forward, to use the Act to put their argument further. But they couldn’t—it was thrown out at the first hurdle on each and every occasion. This Act has more bark than bite, more rhetoric than reality, and is more aspirational than enforceable.

How then can we sit here—and I've heard this in the six months that I've been in the Chamber—how can we sit here and praise the Act for being radical and saying that it's the envy of the world, when it doesn't even give our citizens the rights to protect their local assets and to hold their public bodies and local government to account? The fact that people use phrases such as 'the envy of the world' routinely does not mean that it's true, and it doesn't mean that the law is perfect. We should, as a Senedd, be mature enough to recognise when a law is not good enough, and then be prepared to change it.

When the former Lord Chief Justice, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, said of the Act that it wasn’t specific and it wasn't tight enough; when one of Wales’s leading silks, Rhodri Williams Queen's Counsel, described it as 'virtually useless'; when the eminent public law academic, Dr Sarah Nason from Bangor University, said it didn’t endow individuals with legal, enforceable rights, they were all highlighting the same problem—the Act’s inability to properly hold public bodies to account, and the Act’s inability to properly empower local people and communities.

How can we hope to change the way that we think in Wales and embed sustainable development into our lives when citizens can't even rely on the Act to do what the Act was intended to do? It's only when the people of Wales can use this Act to protect their local assets and to hold public bodies to account that this Act will fulfil its true potential.

If the intention of this Act was to be a series of weak principles, let's be honest about that. And if that's true, then I will say that we have over-sold this Act in this Chamber. Without having the necessary powers, this Act is powerless and, more importantly, on the whole, it is useless.

That’s why this Chamber needs post-legislative scrutiny of this Act. We need to reform it. We need to give it some teeth. We need to give it some enforceability. Give it a chance to make a real change for the people of Wales, so that we can use this Act to better ourselves, to better our communities, and to better our environment.

This must become the focal point of how to fix the future generations Act and make it worthy of the lavish praise it has received. This is a chance, a real chance for us here in Wales to influence our future, and the future of our world. We can lead the way. We can show other nations how to protect our communities, our environment, and how to make sustainable development the cornerstone of our governance. And I hope that there is appetite to do this, to give the Act some teeth, to enable it to flower to its full potential.

When I questioned the Counsel General, Mick Antoniw, recently here in Plenary on the Act, he said these words:

'I think, with all legislation, once it has been in force for a while, it does need to be reviewed.'

Well, this is certainly true about the future generations Act, and that review needs to happen sooner rather than later. It needs to empower the Act. It needs to ensure that we can not only enshrine future thinking into every decision by public bodies, but that we can also hold public bodies to account when they fail to do so. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much, Rhys, for bringing this debate forward. This legislation is held up as being very bold, that breaks new ground, and, to a certain extent, that is quite correct. If I could start by recognising the success of the legislation. When I was a county councillor, the council did have to include an impact assessment as a result of the future generations Bill, and that in itself is a positive development; it's another issue as to how officials came to those conclusions. Some of them were very doubtful, to say the least, but at least consideration was given to future generations on paper. But my concern is that, although the ideas are good on paper, that it's not possible to implement them properly, as Rhys has explained very well.

Consider the housing crisis—there are campaigners who have sought legal advice on the housing crisis and the failure of people to access the housing market in their communities, to buy or rent. They sought legal advice, and the advice was that this legislation was aspirational but didn't have teeth, and, therefore, there was no purpose in using it in a court of law. So, although the legislation makes us feel warm inside, and it looks good, the action is letting us down. I would like to hear from the Minister, therefore, what real impact she thinks this legislation has had and how our communities can benefit from this legislation. Thank you very much.

The Minister for Social Justice to reply to the debate—Jane Hutt.

Diolch, Llywydd, and I'd like to thank Rhys for bringing this debate today on the well-being of future generations Act, and I very much welcome the continuation of the conversation we've been having in the Senedd about the Act at the start of this term.

And I just wanted to recall, during the opening ceremony of the sixth Senedd, we had a reading of a specially commissioned poem, 'Ein Llais - Our Voice', a poem created with the help of the future generations commissioner's poet in residence. And the final words of that poem—and I know we were all very moved by it:

'We want to set an example for the rest of the world.'

So, I do think we can be proud that other countries and international organisations are looking to Wales for inspiration on how to legislate for the future, and I know you've acknowledged that, Rhys, in your contribution tonight. But we can't underestimate the fact that the well-being of future generations Act is showing a uniquely Welsh way of tackling the long-term challenges we face, with its focus on empowering and transforming how Government and public bodies work. And it does this by enabling bodies to work in that preventative, collaborative and integrated way, one which involves citizens and looks to the long term. You know, it has been recognised internationally, as you've identified. It is inspiring organisations and governments across the world. And we did take a bold decision to legislate in this way—those of us who were here at the time, taking that legislation through. It is different, and there are many views on what the Act is and what it should be in the future. It's been described as 'remarkable' in terms of its breadth, its coverage and its ambition, and, internationally, we have seen example upon example of where the Welsh approach has been adopted or has influenced thinking.

In Scotland, they are committed to future generations legislation. In the UK Parliament, as you've already mentioned, Lord John Bird and Simon Fell MP are co-sponsoring a well-being of future generations Bill, modelled on our legislation. In November, the Irish foreign Minister, Simon Coveney, told the Welsh Ministers that the Act was inspirational and that the Irish Government would be keen to replicate it. New Zealand amended their public finance Act, so that their Government has set out the well-being objectives that will guide the Government's budget decisions and support long-term well-being.

In 2019, the Government of Jersey legislated to require their Council of Ministers to take into account the sustainable well-being of current and future generations. And, earlier this year, the United Nations made substantial commitments to bring in a future-generations approach into the UN system. The WHO, the World Health Organization Regional Office for Europe, recognises the value of the Act for health, stating that

'the Act truly resonates with the SDGs and with the values and principles of Health 2020, the WHO European policy framework for health and well-being.'

And next week, I'm speaking at the tenth global conference on health promotion, focusing on well-being equity and sustainable development. We as Wales are attracting international interest because our approach is distinctive.

Let's look at those key features of that Act: the establishment of an independent future generations commissioner for Wales, powerfully independent and such a strong voice, showing and demonstrating the leadership that that Act needed in our future generations commissioner to take us forward into the first years of the Act, specifically tasked with promoting the sustainable development principle and acting as a guardian of the ability of future generations to meet their needs. The commissioner and her team have led the message to spread the Welsh approach across the world, and supported and advised bodies in Wales on how to work in a sustainable way. One of the commissioner's initiatives, which they've been very pleased to engage with, is the development of the Future Generations Leadership Academy. That's supporting our diverse range of young people to develop their leadership on the well-being of future generations agenda. I know all 35 members of the new cohort met together last month. They're going to be a beacon of change, not just in terms of Government, public sector, business and the community sectors—that's where they're drawn from, and members of the Welsh Government civil service are part of that.

Culture is also one of the distinctive characteristics to the Welsh approach. That's a strong feeling that we needed to ensure that cultural well-being became the fourth defining feature of sustainable development, alongside the economy, environment and society. Looking ahead, our co-operation agreement includes a commitment to develop a new culture strategy and ensure that each Government department works strategically towards that sixth well-being goal: a Wales of vibrant culture and thriving Welsh language.

I think the citizen engagement and involvement way of working is particularly distinctive. It does look to transform how public bodies involve people in the decisions that affect them, and the role of citizens in shaping Wales's future is essential if we're going to achieve the well-being goals. So, the Act requiring public bodies to ensure the involvement of people is at the heart of how they work. Public bodies are not all used to—. They don't all have the tradition and understanding of how that happens, but it has been making a difference—that approach.

And I just want to mention the race equality action plan for an anti-racist Wales, which was co-constructed with black, Asian and ethnic minority communities. It's grounded in that recognition of a need for fundamental change, reflects our commitment to listen to our ethnic minority people, communities and networks, and to take action to make changes in ways that are tangible to their communities, based on their lived experience, them coming into the Welsh Government, mentoring the civil servants, then funding groups in communities to influence the plan. But I do agree with the sentiment behind the Member's views about involving citizens in the decisions that affect them. It's very clear that that has to be about the diversity of Wales—a core of the sustainable development principle.

Now, we go on to the crux of your debate today about the fact that the Act doesn't—the points that you wanted to raise in this debate—confer individual rights onto citizens. It wasn't designed to do this, and we do caution against placing expectations on the Act that it's not designed to do. But we can and must have the debate about whether the Act needs to change, and I'll work with the Equality and Social Justice Committee and Members on matters relating to any post-legislative review. I'm sure that's what you wanted to hear tonight.

We do have to recognise, just in terms of those kinds of so-called individual decisions—I won't go into all of them that you've raised—that a public body's duty to act in accordance with the sustainable development principle doesn't dictate the decision they must reach in any given situation. The Act wasn't designed to provide the right answers. It doesn't remove the difficult decisions that public bodies must take, but it does set out factors that they must conscientiously consider before making a decision to which the well-being duty applies, and Mabon actually drew attention to how, as a local authority councillor, it was brought into the considerations in terms of difficult decisions that were being made.

I can give you many examples of how we feel the Act is remaining up to date, is relevant for Wales now and in the future, and I do hope that that is what you feel, because it's such a powerful tool.

Next week, I will be making a statement on the national milestones and updated national indicators—we're laying it next week—further explanation of what the well-being goals mean in practice, updating our indicators as well, and particularly looking at those issues that are crucial in terms of how the Act can keep pace with the Wales of today.

I think it's also important that we recognise that the future generations report and the evidence presented to the Public Accounts Committee showed that the Act was changing conversations and the ways in which public bodies work, and the commissioner said that the Act is bringing about some excellent innovation and she's observing a growing movement of change, with people daring to deliver differently—Public Health Wales, our health sustainability hub; Rhondda Cynon Taf, an involvement platform in terms of getting involved in information on climate change; the Co-production Network for Wales; the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service, Natural Resources Wales, looking at collaboration, integration; and Amgueddfa Cymru, looking at a well-being objective on developing skills for employing young people. I can go on, but we're out of time, I can see, Llywydd.

So, I just want to say finally that our co-operation agreement does give us opportunities, doesn't it, particularly, as you've said, in relation to the climate and nature emergencies, the greatest threats facing our world, but we can work together to tackle these twin emergencies. We are taking those bold steps towards a net-zero Wales and addressing nature loss, improving diversity and planting more trees, and our shared policy area on sustainable public services will help us understand the future needs of Welsh public services. So, these commitments build on our shared values of social solidarity, a sustainable planet and a vibrant democracy. So, where we go forward, it must be on the strength of belief in this Act, belief in it and in the way it's delivered. We're at the start of a journey—I was very conscious of the words that are in this little book, which you will, I'm sure, be aware of, 'futuregen: Lessons from a small country', which was co-authored by Jane Davidson, who helped set us off as a former Minister, about the recognition:

'What Wales is doing today, the world will do tomorrow'

by the UN Assistant Secretary General. So, let's be proud of the Act, and let's make it work. Diolch yn fawr.

That brings today's proceedings to a close.