Y Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth, Cyfiawnder a’r Cyfansoddiad - Y Bumed Senedd

Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee - Fifth Senedd

30/11/2020

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Carwyn Jones
Dai Lloyd
David Melding
Mick Antoniw Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Aled Evans Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
Gareth Howells Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
Lucy Valsamidis Ymchwilydd
Researcher
P Gareth Williams Clerc
Clerk
Rhiannon Lewis Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
Sarah Sargent Ail Glerc
Second Clerk

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Cyfarfu'r pwyllgor drwy gynhadledd fideo.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:31.

The committee met by video-conference.

The meeting began at 09:31. 

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introduction, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

I welcome Members to this week's virtual meeting of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. In accordance with Standing Order 34.19, I've determined that the public be excluded from the meeting in order to protect public health. In accordance with Standing Order 34.21, notice of this decision was included in the published agenda for this meeting. The meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and a Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptation for conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements remain in place. We have full attendance at the committee today. The usual housekeeping rules apply to this meeting. Can I just ask if there are any declarations of interest? David Melding. 

Yes, Chair, can I remind everyone that I'm the chair of the ministerial advisory group on outcomes for children? This is of relevance under papers to note and the response from the Minister on the fostering regulations. 

Thank you for that, and that's duly noted. There are no other declarations, so we move straight on to item 2. 

2. Offerynnau a ystyriwyd yn flaenorol i’w sifftio ac sy’n awr yn destun craffu o dan Reolau Sefydlog 21.2 a 21.3
2. Instruments previously considered for sifting and now subject to scrutiny under Standing Orders 21.2 and 21.3

We move on to negative resolution instruments, on to the Nutrition (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020. Members have the report, the regulations and the explanatory memorandum before them. The regulations amend the Nutrition (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 to ensure a workable enforcement regime remains in Wales from the implementation period completion day. The amendments made to the 2019 regulations also reflect the protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland and removes or replaces references that, as a consequence of that protocol, are no longer applicable. I think there are some merits point that have been identified, and I refer now to Gareth. 

Diolch. The committee sifted these regulations and agreed that the negative resolution procedure was appropriate, and now here are the regulations following that negative resolution procedure. 

Okay, thank you for that, Gareth. Are there any comments or observations to be made by the Members? I don't see any, so we move on to item 3.

3. Offerynnau nad ydynt yn cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 na 21.3
3. Instruments that raise no reporting issues under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3

We move on to affirmative resolution instruments. We have the Plant Health (Forestry) (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020. These regulations amend the Plant Health (Forestry) (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, which in turn amend the Forest Reproductive Material (Great Britain) Regulations 2002 and the Plant Health (Fees) (Forestry) (Wales) Regulations 2019 in relation to Wales. The amendments made by the regulations implement Great Britain's decision on the equivalence of forest reproductive material produced in countries outside Great Britain, and set out the revised requirements that apply in Wales. The amendments are necessary because the 2002 and 2019 regulations preceded the withdrawal agreement between the UK and the EU, and amendments are also necessary to allow for the operability of the Ireland/Northern Ireland protocol in relation to the Forest Reproductive Material Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2002. I don't think there are any merits points there and so, in that case, any comments or observations from the Members? I don't see any.

09:35
4. Offerynnau sy’n cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt i’r senedd o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 a 21.3
4. Instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3

So, we move on to the next item, which is the Health Protection (Coronavirus, International Travel) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 20) Regulations 2020. Again, Members have the report, the regulations explanatory memorandum, and we have the letter from the Trefnydd, which is dated 20 November 2020, and, of course, we have the written statement, which is of 19 November. These regulations amend the Health Protection (Coronavirus, International Travel) (Wales) Regulations 2020 to add to the list of exempt countries and territories in the international travel regulations and to make transitional provisions. The regulations were made on 20 November and came into force on 21 November. There are some technical and merits points. Gareth.

There is one technical point and six merits points, starting on pack page 17. The regulations add people working on subsea fibre-optic telecommunications to the list of exempt people in Schedule 2 to the international travel regulations, meaning they do not have to isolate. But it's not just a case of dropping descriptions of people into Schedule 2; you also need to update an earlier bit of the regulations, and the Welsh Government hasn't done that, so it's raised as a technical point, and I see that the Welsh Government has now corrected that error in the No. 21 amendments that will come before the committee next week.

There are a few standard merits points, noting, for example, there's been no formal consultation, and breach of the 21-day rule. As regards the fourth merits point, there's no equality impact assessment for these No. 20 amendments. I suspect the reason is the same as the Welsh Government gave for the No. 18 and No. 19 amendments—see today's agenda, items 5.1 and 5.2—which is that the amendments are urgent and it has not been possible to prepare and publish an equality impact assessment. However, the Welsh Government says that an integrated impact assessment for the international travel rules as a whole will be published in due course.

As for the fifth merits point, the regulations previously said that essential Government work was work designated as such by the Welsh Ministers or the relevant UK department or employer. But the reference to the Welsh Ministers has now been removed, so the merits point asked the Welsh Government to explain why that is. And the final merits point asks the Welsh Government to clarify its statement in the explanatory memorandum. The explanatory memorandum says that the regulations broadened the exemption for Crown servants and Government contractors and their dependants, but, when you look at the regulations themselves, it isn't clear how they'd actually achieve that.

Thank you for those. Are there any comments or observations from Members? No, I don't see any. Thank you for that, Gareth.

5. Offerynnau sy’n cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 neu 21.3 - trafodwyd yn flaenorol
5. Instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3 - previously considered

We move on to item 5 of the agenda. We move on to the Health Protection (Coronavirus, International Travel) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 18) Regulations 2020, and we have the report and the Welsh Government response. We considered this instrument in our meeting on 16 November, two weeks ago, and we laid our report the same day. The Welsh Government's response to the reporting point in the committee's report has been received, so, really, it's just a matter of noting that response from Welsh Government. I don't know if there are any comments or observations. I don't see any.

In which case, we can go on to item 5.2, which is the Health Protection (Coronavirus, International Travel) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 19) Regulations 2020, and, as with the previous item, we considered this instrument on 16 November and we laid our report on the same day. Again, we note the Welsh Government's response. Any comments or observations? I don't see any on that.  

We move on to item 5.3, which are the Health Protection (Coronavirus, International Travel and Restrictions) (Amendment) (No. 2) (Wales) Regulations 2020. Again, we considered this instrument on 23 November. We laid our report on the same day and, as Members will know, the Plenary debate on this was held on 24 November. We've now received the Welsh Government's formal response. We can note that. I don't know if there are any comments or observations. I don't see any on that. Thank you for that.

09:40
6. Papurau i’w nodi
6. Papers to note

We have some papers to note before we go on to consider some of the draft reports that we'll be considering in private session in due course. We have a letter from the First Minister with regard to the accessibility and public understanding of the coronavirus regulations in Wales. This is a response to a letter this committee sent and it does, in fairness, talk about the considerable efforts that have been made to engage and communicate with regard to these regulations. Are there any comments or observations on that? David Melding. 

Thank you, Chair. Like you, I thought it was a very full and considered letter. I'm grateful for that. But I'm not sure it really got to some of the issues, like guidance giving better examples of real-life situations and where you stand, and I think we have to take note of how many small businesses in the hospitality sector have reacted over the weekend—it was all over the media, BBC Wales ran a piece as well with, I think, a couple of pub landladies and landlords. To announce an intention on Friday to bring in something from the following Friday that would actually be made clear on the Monday—today—I know it's a challenge, but it creates a terribly difficult situation over that weekend for people who have got to make judgments as to whether they're going to remain open at all in the next month coming up to Christmas, and these sorts of business decisions are key. In small businesses, it really can mean your whole resilience is affected for several months. So, it is what it is, and government is one hell of a challenge at the moment. But I have to say that what happened over the weekend, and Friday to Monday, and why he staggered this, I just don't know, and I don't think it's good communication.

My understanding is that, of course, there are a lot of discussions that are going on with the hospitality industry itself, and I think I heard the same comments on radio and so on that were being made. Of course, we still await the details—businesses will still await the details—of the packages and so on. But I think those comments are noted. Are there any other comments from Members? No. In which case, thank you for that, David.

We move on to item 6.2, and we have the letter from the Deputy Minister with regard to the Adoption and Fostering (Wales) (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Coronavirus) Regulations of 2020. Again, we have the letter from the Deputy Minister of 20 November and the letter to the Deputy Minister on 6 November. So, we're invited to note the letter from the Deputy Minister, which responds to some of the concerns that this committee raised in our consideration of the Adoption and Fostering (Wales) (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Coronavirus) Regulations of 2020. This mainly relates to the delay in publication of the children's rights impact assessment. Any comments or observations? Yes, David.

Yes, thank you, Chair. I think the response is reasonable, but I would say that, in this area, children's rights impact assessments are key, and that priority needs to be reflected in the administration that goes on in carrying out these regulations. I think that's important to state on the public record. 

Yes, and I think that's a point that I noted when I read the correspondence as well—the pre-eminence of that particular aspect. Any other comments or observations?

I don't see any, so we move on, then, to 6.3, the letter from the First Minister. This is on the Senedd Cymru (Disqualification) Order 2020, really just to note the letter from the First Minister, which confirms that the disqualification Order 2020 has been made now by the Privy Council. It was made on 11 November and has subsequently come into force. Any comments or observations on that? I don't see any.

In which case, on to item 6.4, which is a letter from the First Minister, again, and that relates to the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 2) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 5) Regulations 2020. We have, obviously, the letter to the Minister and the response, so we're invited to note the letter from the First Minister, which responds to a question previously raised by this committee following our consideration of the No. 5 regulations. If there are any issues on that, perhaps we could discuss those in private session, if Members are agreed. 

If we can, then, move on to item 6.5, which is the letter from the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip. This relates to the socioeconomic duty. We are invited to note the letter from the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip in relation to that, which was announced as one of the areas confirmed in the Welsh Government's legislative programme for delivery before the end of the Senedd term. We have been offered a technical briefing on this. We can discuss this in private session. This, of course, relates to the implementation by Welsh Government of section 1 of the Equality Act 2010. Are Members agreed we defer that to private session? I'm sure we will want to take up the briefing, but we'll discuss that then.

Okay, moving on to item 6.6, this is the letter from the First Minister on making justice work in Wales. We have the letter from the First Minister of 25 November, and, of course, this is a response to my letter of 22 October 2020. Again, the issues there, we can, I think, discuss in private session if that's agreed. Okay, thank you for that.

09:45
7. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod
7. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi) a (ix).

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi) and (ix).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

That bring us, then, to a motion to move into private session. So, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi) and (ix), I invite the committee to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are the Members in agreement? I see there is agreement. Thank you for that. We move into private session.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 09:46.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 09:46.