National Assembly for Wales

Prynhawn da. Good afternoon. I'm Dr Kelly Mackintosh. I'm an associate professor at Swansea University, and also the director of the Welsh Institute of Physical Activity, Health and Sport.

You're most welcome. Brian Davies.

I'm going to start with the first questions, and obviously, as you all know, you're welcome to answer in English or in Welsh. Just a kind of general point from me to begin with: how would you each characterise the way the Welsh Government has related to the sector and communicated with the sector concerning lockdown rules at this time? I don't know who wants to go first.

Perhaps I could go first, Cadeirydd, if that's okay. We have a great deal of engagement with Welsh Government generally, but I think it's fair to say that, during this period, that engagement has increased significantly. I have to give credit to Welsh Government officials who have increased the number of meetings, both formal and ad hoc, irregular correspondence and meetings. It's been a good example, from my perspective, of the increased collaboration that's been required during this period, and I do commend the officials for that. In fact, I've just come off a meeting with our Ministers and their officials this morning, and we've been having regular formal meetings like that as well. So, from my perspective, the engagement with Welsh Government has been good.

Huw or Kelly, how would you—?

I would echo that. Not exclusively from the perspective of sports, but the engagement between Welsh Government and local government throughout this pandemic period has been exemplary, I would argue, and particularly through the local government Minister. And I think that has made a significant difference, not least into this area in particular, because one of the areas where sports, sporting activities, from a local government perspective has been affected is in terms of the loss of income experienced from income coming into leisure centres and the use of other sports facilities, so the move by Welsh Government to fund that loss of income, which, to a significant amount, comes from leisure activities, is of huge help to local government in response to this. 

Kelly.

To echo and concur with both those comments, it's been absolutely fantastic in terms of how they've taken on board, as you say, ad hoc interactions. It's also been very easy access in terms of academics and other institutes being able to feed in and provide information, and I've personally felt that that information has actually been acted on. There have been very quick responses. I had some feed in from the larger UK CMO surveillance group on physical activity and sport, and forwarded on our key recommendations directly to Frank Atherton and had a response within a couple of hours. So, from my perspective, it's actually been a really nice and almost a kind of Welsh perspective on it, which has been fantastic.

Thank you. That's useful to know. How effective do you think that communication has been, when we look at how those messages perhaps you've been receiving have been getting through to grass-roots clubs and individuals? We heard in this committee, for example, on 12 May, that golf courses actually didn't need to close during the pandemic, so long as social distancing was observed and local travel rules were observed. Certainly from my own postbag I don't think the golf clubs knew that, but that's obviously only one example; I wouldn't want to make a mountain out of that. But, how effective do you think—? As organisations—perhaps this doesn't exactly apply to Kelly—how easy has it been to keep those communications open with local organisations, and how well has the Government done in getting those messages across?

I think, given the complexity of both the regulations and the scenarios for all sorts of different types of sports, and sports that are structured very differently as well—from a professional perspective, we're going down to one person running a sport from their living room, so to speak—I think it's been okay. There are significant challenges in communicating some of these complex messages, and, given that, I think people have done their best. What has become evident to me is the importance of digital, and we as an organisation managed to start working remotely within 72 hours—the entire workforce were capable of doing so, and sports have had the same challenge without the same level of resource available to them. We're well funded as an organisation by Welsh Government from that perspective. A lot of sports have very different resource capability to do that. It's improved as it's moved on in the situation. I think clarity has been provided, but it would be fair to say that, at the outset, there might have been some confusing messages, but it is a confusing situation. So, I think we need to be fair on that. The key for me is how people have reacted where the situations haven't been great, and whether they've reacted quickly, promptly and effectively and, to my mind, in most cases that has been the case.

Thank you. Huw.

Picking up on your example there, Chair, I think there is a slight differential depending on the sport involved. Certainly from our perspective here in Cardiff, and I think this goes across local government, our experience of how some of the larger national governing bodies have acted is that they've communicated well, both with local authorities and with their members, but, for maybe some smaller sports that has not necessarily been the case, and we have fielded a number of queries from sports clubs in sports such as bowls, tennis, skateboarding, asking questions related to the recovery. In the main, we've tried to field those through to Welsh Government guidance and the WSA stakeholder group.

I stand by the point that, in the main, the communication has been very good, both from Welsh Government and major national governing bodies. If I was to highlight, perhaps, an example where clarity could have been better, it would have been around the specific access to financial support out there. So, to give an example, often sports clubs wouldn't qualify for business rate relief or the grant available because their rateable value was over £50,000, but there wasn't necessarily clarity in what alternative was available and when it became available. Some of these points we were able to raise with Ministers through regular meetings we've been having as local government, but, from the queries we were fielding from clubs, I got the impression perhaps that there was detail that was missing coming down from elsewhere. 

Kelly, have you got anything to add? No. Thank you. Brian, you're welcome to come back in, of course.

It was just something I forgot to mention, which is some of the governing bodies did face the challenge of having furloughed a lot of their staff, which meant that their capacity to communicate as efficiently as they normally would was also compromised, and I think people ought to bear that in mind—significant numbers of staff. Because governing bodies aren't fully reliant on public funding, they were able to furlough some staff, and that did have an impact for them.

Thank you. We'll move on now, then, and John Griffiths has got some questions, I think, on the impact of the crisis on sport.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Yes, I think we've all become quite familiar with seeing, perhaps, more people jogging, walking, speed walking and cycling past our houses during the lockdown. But, of course, lots of other sporting activity has stopped because of the restrictions. So, I'd be interested in how you think the lockdown has impacted on participation and how that differs, really, by gender, by previous levels of activity, in terms of socioeconomic factors—how well off people are or not—and also by age. Could you give us a thumbnail sketch of the situation as you see it?

Sure. Thank you, John. As you'd expect, it does differ by different categories and demographics. One of the first things that the situation presented us with was a need to find out more information and gather some insight on how the situation was having such an impact. For adults, it's broadly similar to pre lockdown. However, for children, there is a downturn. There's a suggested downturn from our ComRes survey. It also would appear that there are slight differences at the moment in gender, with female participation slightly up.

However, more worrying, and the area that we've definitely taken note of, is that the survey does suggest that the inequalities gaps, the intersectional issues that we faced before the pandemic, are actually widening, and that is a concern. We need to do more research in that area, but it's probably the area that has presented most concern at the moment.

I would echo that concern, certainly. The data we had for Cardiff in terms of health outcomes pre crisis were showing a 12-year life expectancy gap and an over 20-year healthy life expectancy gap between certain parts of south Cardiff and north Cardiff. So, when there's research emerging that participation in sports during this pandemic is breaking down along those lines, I think that gives us further cause for concern.

Just to give you an example in Cardiff, within the first quarter of the year, we would expect in a normal year around 650,000 individual instances of participation in sport, leisure centres and sport centres. Instinctively, it is clear that that kind of level of sporting activity hasn't been taking place, even though we are seeing more people walking, cycling and running. I know councils across Wales are trying to support that by various road closures to make it safer.

The other point I would just make is that, in some cases, for example in Aberystwyth and in Denbighshire, I think there are examples of leisure centres that have become treatment centres for COVID-19, which may well continue beyond the point where leisure centres are otherwise able to open. So, that is something that needs to be factored in and considered as part of any recovery plan in those locations.

Kelly.

Thank you. I fully agree in terms of—. As adults, we tend to become much more structured with the sporting activities; it's easy to transfer into structured exercise. But, as Brian highlights, it's children that are the fundamental issue on this. So, for them, the interactions in a sporting context, building up those key fundamental movement skills that give them the life skills to transfer in terms of physical literacy as well, and how that feeds forward into lifelong activity—that's the primary issue. And, again, the inequalities have just widened—they haven't got the garden space, for example. It's perhaps, in some cases, where there's more children per household, a lot harder in terms of managing home schooling, but also integrating not just the activity associated, but the specific skills moving forward in that. So, I suppose what has been a problem, in terms of the Welsh Government and feeding forward, is this clear idea that, actually, this is important, and it's so important that we're allowing this to be the time that you leave your houses for, and I think the positive of that has actually translated well.

From my perspective, usually with children you find a significant difference in that girls are much less active than boys and there's less participation in sport, especially around that age of maturation. So, the positive thing coming out of this is that girl participation increasing. That is a real positive that we should cling on to and also to use as a positive to transfer beyond, post lockdown. My personal thought on that is the case that perhaps that's how we're actually approaching it now. There's not the issue of that social interaction with them and feelings of insecurity with them. So, I think there are ways that we can take this forward in terms of sport, but there are certain differences, both across the age span, but also sex differences and inequalities.

Chair, if I could make one final point, prompted by what Kelly was saying around children's participation. In terms of parks, there have been differences across Wales with some authorities closing more of their parks and others not. But I think, across the country, the picture is the same in terms of playgrounds, where playgrounds are shut everywhere. So, that opportunity for informal physical activity is certainly much reduced. You know, there's good health and hygiene reasons for the reasons why those playgrounds were shut and remain shut, but that nevertheless has deprived, I think, a significant number of young people from that opportunity for informal physical activity as well.

In terms of the positives, Kelly, you mentioned one or two, and we hear the phrase 'building back better' very often now, and we know that Jeremy Miles, as the Counsel General, is looking at aspects of building back better as we get through this virus—with those issues around children and around the inequalities that we have in our society that are reflected in physical activity and participation in sport, are there any major messages you want to give in terms of how we build back better and how you engaged with Welsh Government and Jeremy Miles in terms of that exercise?

Kelly.

I think the key messages, really, are that it's building on emphasis that has been put on in terms of the importance of it. But building on Huw's point as well around the access and the play and allowing those interactions to take place, it's trying to ensure that when we initially come out of a lockdown, there is that social interaction with children, the natural environment, where they're building up those key skills. And when we go further forward into it, it's a case of, 'What was it—?' We need to use time now, in terms of what it is that is widening the gap. We can probably make intuitive guesses, but what is it that actually meant that females increased their participation, for example? And if we can allude to that, then that's something that we take forward and try and implement into future strategies.

If I could add to that as well, Chair. Our chair has been in touch with Jeremy Miles, and I think met with him last Friday—some time last week, anyway—to discuss the issues. We're also, as part of our response to the issue, launching a fund, the sport resilience fund. We've made direct contact with specific agencies in that intersectional community to find out how we can support them now, not just when we come out of the pandemic. Those groups are an important part of our long-term strategy going forward anyway, but they need the support now, and so they are forming a priority area for our sport resilience fund.

John.

Cadeirydd, if we move on to the impact of the lockdown on sports clubs and businesses, how would you characterise that in terms of the particular sport, the level of the club, whether it's elite or grass roots, and geographical aspects?

Brian, do you want to come in on that? 

Yes, thanks, Chair. All sport has been incredibly negatively impacted. What is clear is that the seasonality of sport has meant that some sports have really felt it immediately. They're in the middle of their season, or their season was about to start, so, clearly, for some sports, the impact has been immediate and significant. But all sports have been impacted.

In terms of geography, we've not seen a differential across Wales, it is pan Wales, although some sports are geographically specific, so watersports and outdoor activities depend on the natural environment. So, they will be geographically impacted, just by their pure nature.

And in terms of the levels of sports, it is all levels, grass roots through to the very top. It has been difficult for everybody, but what has been heartening is the collaboration between sports to explore what the issues are—can they help each other, can they work as a unit, as a sector? We've been really pleased with the collaboration shown by the Welsh Sports Association to help in this situation, not just from a clubs' perspective, but a sector-wide perspective—you know, the leisure providers, the community trusts. It's a very complex environment and arena, and it has all been impacted, but they are gathering together to try and help the whole sector come out of it.

Just in terms of those leisure trusts, they are major deliverers of leisure services in many different ways and there are a variety of models across Wales as well. How confident can we be that those leisure trusts are going to be in reasonable shape to continue to deliver those services?

Huw, do you want to come in on this?

Yes, thanks, Chair. John, I don't think we can have a great deal of confidence, I have to say—not that I'm aware of any one organisation that is raising the flag that things are teetering, but, clearly, they are all hugely income-dependent businesses whose entire income stream has currently dried up. I know that, in the main, they've taken advantage of the furloughing scheme, and I know there are a number of authorities, my own included, that have topped up that furloughing, so that employees who are on furlough receive 100 per cent of their salaries so that they're not differentially impacted from if the service had been delivered in-house.

But these are organisations that rely on income, and I think the real fear is—and there are other industries in the same boat—even after the lockdown eases, people won't immediately return in the numbers they once did to these kinds of indoor sporting activities. From a local government perspective, therefore, we are certainly looking very closely at a position where leisure centres have been placed into trusts or other arrangements, with an anticipation that there will be some calls for these services to return back to the authority, with the incumbent costs that come with that. Likewise, if the authority is still delivering services in-house, those authorities will be taking direct financial hits. So, it is a challenge that, whatever your position is in the 22 authorities—it's something that will impact us all, I think.

Thank you. I'm going to have to bring John in. Just for Members and witnesses to be aware, we've got another 30 minutes left in this session, and we've got quite a lot that we want to get through, so—. There's never enough time. There's never enough time on any Assembly committee, so, if we can try and be as succinct as we can in our questions and answers, that would be helpful. John.

Yes. Okay, then, Chair. Perhaps we could move on, then, to survival, really. Has an assessment been made of the number of sports clubs whose very survival is threatened? And that sort of financial hardship in the sector, how might that impact on longer term investment? If you could also mention sporting professionals, such as instructors, and their position, I'd be grateful. I know it's quite a lot to put together, but, as the Chair said, we've got limited time. 

I'll do my best, Chair and John. 

[Inaudible.]—There's a lot there.

Yes. The simple answer to the first part is we haven't done a specific assessment on those clubs whose survival is threatened currently. However, the emergency fund that we launched early on, we've had around 600 plus—630-odd—applications to that fund, which gives some sort of idea of the situation that clubs are facing in terms of volume. But the evidence that they're providing varies as to their degree of threat, how much they are threatened. But that support has been provided to those who were deemed to be at threat immediately, so, hopefully, that will help. 

We've repurposed £9 million of our current budgets to try and help the situation, over £0.5 million in the first, emergency phase, and the rest now as part of our resilience. The truth is that will have an impact, if we spend all that on recovery out of this situation, for when we have recovered out of it, because it will no longer be available to us, because we'll have spent it. Again, in terms of sporting professionals and instructors, everybody has been impacted, but different parts of our sector have had access to the really helpful support that is available, but some more than others. 

Now, the instructor area—I know you've got someone on the session this afternoon who can probably give you more detail on that area, but some of these self-employed areas will potentially have fallen through the gap. But they'll give you more detail on that later on.

If I could just say one thing about the leisure trusts bit from your previous question, if we're going to be brutally honest, it's an area that Sport Wales wasn't heavily involved with. It was a—. We were more heavily involved with local authorities. It's become evident that these are key to provision for participation in sport in Wales, and our rescue funds can only help; they're not going to solve the issue for these trusts. They're embryonic, they're low in levels of reserves, they are very vulnerable. It's a particularly important area that we look at during this crisis, for how we address it when we come out of it. 

Thank you. Huw, Kelly, do you want to add to some of what Brian has said?

Just very briefly, Chair, just on instructors, obviously, if instructors are employed by local authorities they're covered by direct salaried payments, but it's going to be a very differential picture for those who are privately employed and are working for themselves, and I'm sure you'll hear more about that. The only other point I'd make is just to draw the committee's attention to the fact that a lot of the income for sports clubs doesn't come directly from the sporting activity, it comes from the social activity, i.e. the clubhouse being open, the income taken through the bar. The easing of sporting lockdown doesn't necessarily solve the financial challenges that may be governed by a different set of lockdown guidance. 

That makes a lot of sense. Do you have anything to add, Kelly?

No. I suppose the only positive for us that the grass-roots level is those that are often done by the parents, people who are doing it in kind. So, in that respect, then that may be one of the less affected, other than those that are associated with the clubhouses, for example.  

Thank you. John. 

Okay. I think, unless time allows, Chair, that's probably enough on that. 

Thank you. Carwyn, over to you. 

Yes, thank you, Chair. Really, three questions, first of all, for Brian, if I may. Brian, you mentioned the emergency relief fund, and you mentioned, I think, that about £0.5 million has been committed under that fund. Just three quick questions from me on that. Do you know how many clubs have been supported under that fund? Secondly, do you know how many applications have been turned down, whether it's a number or a percentage? And then, thirdly, how does demand compare to the amount of money available through the budget?

Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Carwyn. Yes, I've got those figures. We've supported 280 clubs up to now. There's still a further panel to be held, but it's 280 up to now, and 280 have been rejected as well, so it's exactly the same. The total number of applications to date is 633, and the differential is accounted for by the fact that we've asked for more information, more clarification, or we're waiting on some information from other schemes that the clubs might have applied to as well, such as the business rates relief or the economic response fund.

So, those are the figures. The reasons for some of the rejections are probably important to point out as well. Some were that they were asking for things that were ineligible for an emergency; there was a list of criteria that was put forward at the outset. But that doesn't mean to say they cannot submit the same application for the sport resilience fund, because they might be eligible for that. It's just that it was deemed that they weren't in an emergency situation, and that's what the fund was specifically for. It was quite a low level, really, in total—about £0.5 million. It doesn't go very far when you're trying to cater for the whole of the Wales, but those are the statistics. 

Okay. Thanks. You mentioned the sport resilience fund there. I think two questions on that: firstly, how is it different from the emergency relief fund and—? Well, has it started? It was announced, wasn't it, on 1 April, so how is that looking at the moment? What I'm trying to understand here is what that adds to the emergency relief fund. 

Yes. So, purely by definition, the emergency fund was, 'Are you about to go under? Do you need to pay your rates, your rents, your immediate bills? Can we help you with that?' The sport resilience fund is looking further into the future, trying to help you come out of the situation in a good shape: 'Are you in a good position? Can we protect you for the future?'

In terms of timelines, yes, it is live. It's in three elements. The first two elements are live, and those elements are for bigger partners, national governing bodies, organisations, national partners. The second element is for the community leisure trusts specifically, to try and help them at the minute. And the third one is an open fund similar to the emergency fund—open for grass-roots clubs, smaller organisations, et cetera. That isn't live yet. That will go live beginning of July, as soon as the ERF comes to an end, but the other two elements are live now and our staff are talking to the partners about their plans, what the challenges are and how we can help them be resilient through this situation.  

Thanks. When we look at the coronavirus funds in total, how much money is extra money from Government and how much, as a proportion, is money that you are being asked to find in-house? 

Good question, and it gives me the opportunity to also mention that some of these funds are National Lottery, and it's important we recognise that as well. But, in terms of additional funds from Government, that total is £200,000. The amount of money for the ERF and the sport resilience fund that we've repurposed from existing budgets, both Welsh Government and lottery, is £9 million. So, the extra funds are £200,000, but the permission from Welsh Government to allow us to continue to invest in national partners, as we would normally do, has been an important decision by Welsh Government as well and very welcome. And, without it, the sector would struggle massively. 

Thanks. Final question from me. You've answered quite a lot of questions about engagement, you and Huw, but this is a question, I suppose, for all three, and, really, it's quite simply this: are there any gaps that still exist, and, if there are, how might those gaps in funding or support, or both, be addressed? If I can ask you first, Brian, then if Kelly might want to come in then. 

It's a difficult question to answer. It's an evolving picture. I think what we've learnt through the emergency relief fund indicates certain lessons for us. What we're learning now through the consultation and communication with partners on the sport resilience fund will give us even more information. The surveys we've done have been important, but they've been very high level or very urgent. We need to get more insight on what that picture is in more detail. So, I can't give specifics other than the one I've already given, which is the leisure trusts. We're aware that there's a significant issue there, and we currently don't have the level of resource to resolve it, only help it. But, as we gain information through the SRF and do more insight, more research, with places like Sheffield Hallam University and Savanta ComRes, I'm sure we'll be able to give you a more detailed picture in writing.

We'd appreciate that. Huw, do you want to come in on this?

Yes. Well, I would say that the gap, or the unknown, at least, is in the medium to long term. I think, between the support that Sport Wales have made available and then the support income that is coming from Welsh Government to local authorities, in the short term, the position is stable. But, because of the uncertainty—the inevitable uncertainty; I understand why that is—about what the support available will be in the medium-to-long term, I think that is when we'll start to see—you know, as greater details and knowledge emerge, what Brian was saying, then we'll understand exactly where gaps are going to be and what our ability to match those gaps then is—[Inaudible.]

Kelly, have you got something to add?

Thank you, Chair. Yes, exactly, it's building on, moving forward from those high-level data that we have, and trying to dig into more detail in depth. So, once we've identified what the key strategies are, it's within those—. Can we then use key personnel across Wales to dive deeper to really get a clear picture as to what that is, to then address, as Huw said, those medium- and long-term implications? Because, at the moment, and rightly so, we've had to look at that emergency stage, and we've looked at it and we've put health, rightly so, ahead of economy, but there are the long-term implications and, unfortunately, in time, they start to overlap, because you need both to align. So, it's trying to use what we have in terms of the current infrastructure to address those gaps and then have a more strategic way forward.

Just in terms of—. To abuse my Chair's position for a minute, in terms of when we might get—. Do you have a sense about when we might get a picture of that longer term, and what longer term support might need to be in place? I guess it's very difficult to answer.

I guess that's a question for Welsh Government, and I think it's a question that they can answer with an understanding of, ultimately, what the Treasury's spending plans will be, coming out of the recovery. I think the figure allocated for lost income for local authorities, for example, is £78 million for the first period. To give you a sense of how far that goes, in Cardiff alone, so, about 10 per cent of the Welsh population, we have spent—we've incurred lost income, I should say, of—around £12 million in the first three months. So, although different authorities will rely to different degrees on income generation, you can see that £78 million will not go very far. So, yes, then we're into that uncertainty.

Chair, if I could just add to that, we've just had the first release of the two-phase research we've commissioned with Sheffield Hallam on the economic impact for sport of COVID, and it's pretty significant. The first phase results, we're talking about an 18 per cent reduction in the level of economic activity for sport and an additional 17 per cent reduction in the gross value added impact on sport as well. When you're talking about a £1.1 billion economic impact in the first place, that's a significant sum.

Absolutely. If and when you have any additional information to share, the committee would really appreciate you sharing that with us in writing. That would be very useful. 

Can I turn to David Melding now, please?

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. I just want to talk a bit about the return to sporting activity, and I think my questions will have more relevance for some than others, but, anyway, I'll put them to you all. The first thing really: I'd like to know how you have worked with Welsh Government to plan a safe return to sport—how you are approaching that in terms of those that can come on faster than others, I suppose.

Yes, I think that's probably one for me, in the main. This is, as I mentioned earlier, a good example of how the collaboration during this pandemic has come to the fore. And with the assistance of the Welsh Sports Association, several groups were established across the sector to look at the return to sport, and I was really pleased that Welsh Government officials agreed to put an official on each of those groups to listen and to answer questions as the groups were debating the issues they were facing. The groups were split into, effectively, indoor sports, outdoor sports, facilities, and elite and professional. In some calls you've got 200 people on the call—all with an opinion and all with an issue or issues. So, it's definitely been a challenge, Chair, to organise, but with the support of the WSA, as I said, it's been a really good programme of debate and deliberation. The first recommendations of some of those groups have already gone into Government for the next review period.

So, at the outset, it looks like it's a good process, but, of course, it's an ongoing process, and it depends on what happens from now on as to whether those groups have been successful or not, and how they feel they are being listened to. So, it's a watching brief at the moment on the outcome.

Huw and Kelly, do you have anything to add to that?

Nothing from me, Chair.

No. David.

If we look at the sorts of sports that are going to come back in the fairly near future—as long as COVID continues to be controlled and to decline—what sort of advice are you giving Government? Perhaps Huw would reflect on the availability of these facilities and many of them being directly managed by the local authorities, presumably. But you know, at the minute, I think we were told that golf courses never were required to close, but outdoor tennis and outdoor bowls are still not permitted, as far as I can work out. I just wonder, what's the methodology behind some of this, because in terms of mobility, the availability of bowling greens for older people can be quite a key thing in keeping physical activity up. Presumably, if you cut by a third or a half the numbers that have access to these facilities at any one time, there is quite considerable potential for social distancing. So, how are these things being approached? Because, obviously, with the lockdown, we just, it seems, closed everything, but perhaps not golf courses.

I think that golf courses example is a particularly interesting one, because, obviously, there was a statement made by the governing body in relation to golf clubs being open, and I have to say, I think that blindsided us in local government, as to the fact that they were open.

In terms of those other sports you've referenced there, David, it wouldn't be for me to comment on the specifics of why some sports are open, or potentially open, and why some others aren't. I can certainly think of bowls, for example—whilst there would be many positive benefits, there is more than one person going to be touching the various equipment involved there. So, maybe that is the logic. I think the other factor, as far as local authorities are concerned in the reopening of various sporting facilities, is the level of ongoing maintenance that has occurred during the crisis. So, in Cardiff, for example, the mowing regime across parks, pitches and other sporting facilities vary enormously. We try, in fact, to prioritise fine grasses like bowling greens, because if you leave them to deteriorate beyond a certain point, there's a significant and costly piece of work to recover them. But there are other areas of parks and playing fields that haven't been mowed, for example, as often as they normally would.

And then, in terms of the reopening of sport changing rooms and sport clubs, there will be health and safety concerns, for example around legionella, that need to be assessed. If the council is in charge of that building, it will be a responsibility on the council itself. If it's just acting as a landlord, there will be still some expectation on the landlord, but there will certainly be some additional expectation on the clubs that may or may not have the wherewithal currently to be able to do everything that's needed from a health and safety perspective. So, it is not an overnight flick of the switch, I would suggest, to bring any particular sport back on-line.

Before coming on to Brian in response to that, if you wish to, can I just bring John Griffiths in, please? He's got an additional question.

Yes, I was going to just ask two, if I could, very quickly, Chair. One is to Huw, really, which is that—. Because Huw was talking about earlier the local authorities have been inconsistent in terms of opening up parks, I just wonder about tennis and tennis courts—what resistance we might find in local authorities to open up those parks' tennis courts if the change is made. And I just wonder if it's possible to say anything about cricket. I think cricket is a difficult one, isn't it, again, because the cricket ball is thrown from one player to another and administered to in strange ways? I just wonder if you've got any thoughts on that. 

Huw or Brian—whoever.

Maybe I can come in on some specifics there. I think in terms of tennis courts at a local authority level, Tennis Wales and the LTA as well have done quite a lot of work on protocols to help local authorities in that respect, but it does require a level of resource, and if a lot of staff have been furloughed, you need to make sure that the staff are back. So, a notice period is quite important there for facility providers.

I fully understand the frustration of some summer sports, as I mentioned earlier. However, the overall message that we're getting from sports is that they understand the public health messaging; they don't want to impact negatively on2 the current good work that's been done on public health, but they do need to see a pathway to some level of return. And my final point would be: that level of return is going to be different to the norm for the short term and that's what these return-to-play protocols that the groups are looking at are considering. So, in cricket terms, John, nets might be able to open but competitions, matches, are probably unlikely. But training, children taking part—those kind of things may be able to return in some form. It's just this idea of sport returning as it was in the short term is a falsehood, really, because we can't under social distancing guidelines.

I think, to the element of the difference between local authorities, John, I think that's a fair question, but I think that will reflect both the situation on the ground in those various authorities and factors like population density. So, for example, in Cardiff, when it comes to tennis courts, basketball courts, I think, in the main, we would look—when the guidance allows it—to take a very permissive approach in terms of reopening those, certainly for family groups. As a layperson, not a scientific person, I can't see the issue, why you wouldn't be able to play tennis. But then I guess there is then the psychological aspect of what you're encouraging if people are seeing other people taking part in such activities, and I know there will be council leaders in other parts of Wales who may wish to take a more defensive strategy. But I think that just reflects the different conditions that we have in various parts of Wales and that's the nature of local government, I think.

Kelly, have you got anything to add?

No, thank you, Chair. 

Thank you. David. Can we unmute David, please?

There it is. Thank you, Cadeirydd. I'd just like to ask Huw a further question: if there are resource implications about opening up facilities, especially if social distancing and more regular cleaning or whatever is going to be required—. We've heard about the inequality aspect of COVID-19—is there going to be any way of prioritising the relatively poorer communities, frankly, in terms of ensuring that facilities in those areas come on-stream a little earlier than in areas where most of the population may have recourse to a large garden or open spaces fairly near, on the edge of the city, so, perhaps, the ability just to go out a bit further out into the countryside? So, I mean, how will you approach this?

I think, David, that's a question for each local authority in turn. I can only speak for Cardiff on that question, but if I were to say—if it is a question of resources, then, understandably and naturally, we would look to target the resources where the need is greatest, so exactly in line with what you're suggesting, notwithstanding the fact that there is a geographical aspect to where these facilities are as well.

I do think it's worth the committee reflecting on the point—I'll take this moment to make the point—that everything we've discussed thus far from a local government perspective, or virtually everything, is discretionary spend in terms of our responsibility, under various Acts, and you can imagine a scenario in a future austerity programme, where council budgets are squeezed such that we are unable to continue the support that's currently there for all sporting activities. But I would make the link about the intrinsic link that exists between sport and physical activity with health outcomes, and how important the sustaining of that agenda is going forward as we come out of this pandemic. And, to me, it underlines the argument that the WLGA have made for many years now, to bring back public health functions to sit underneath local authorities, as they used to historically, and as they do now in England. I think you see through local government involvement in the testing and tracing process now emerging how it is local government that has the wherewithal on the ground to undertake health intervention programmes and sporting intervention programmes going forward. So, that's an argument, I think, for some changes in the new normal.

That's a very interesting point and and it leads us into the question that Mick has got to ask. Mick Antoniw. Have we unmuted Mick?

The last point that Huw raised, actually, leads me into just a very short question, probably for Kelly Mackintosh, and it's really this: we know all about the links between health and fitness and so on in general—of course, COVID is a very new experience and type of virus and so on, and the lockdown is a very new experience as well and, of course, some people—. We have a lot of people who are taking more exercise now that they might not have done before, and many others are set at home baking; I'm making no reference to anyone in particular. But I just wonder whether there is any evidence that's beginning to come to the fore in respect of morbidity and the link between coronavirus and the impact on exercise and sport and so on. Are there any sort of concerns that are beginning to emerge, or patterns that are beginning to develop in that area?

Thanks, Mick. As you'd imagine, it's a very under-researched area. There's been some incredible publications already, with people and key researchers really picking up on it. At the moment, it's very much a case of scientific researchers' hypotheses and opinions on it. In terms of as much as we know at the moment, there are links, when you're responding to a respiratory virus, that, hypothetically, if you were starting off with a greater baseline of fitness level, greater capacity to respond to the body's demands, you are going to be more likely to respond better to something that then affects that particular—your lung function, for example. Obviously, what we'd usually rely on would be large-scale, long-term randomised clinical trials, which aren't necessarily feasible at the moment. What we can probably safely say is, certainly, having a higher fitness and a more healthy weight status wouldn't have any detrimental effects.

So, the key thing there is that maintaining a healthy lifestyle as far as possible is important. Again, as you allude to, Mick, there are big differences in terms of how people have responded to it. We have some people who have increased their activity levels, their exercise, and I think this is a very positive response of the Government, because it's really pushed that key message that that's important enough to allow you out of the house for that. The negative side is: how long has that been sustained; has the novelty effect within that changed; when lockdown laws and laws around it change, does that mean that actually the emphasis is taken away from going outside to be active, and therefore it starts to change? But I guess this is the key thing that we're trying to look at pushing forward: how do you take those positives and translate that into our new behaviours? Because if we can maintain that, then it's the long-term impacts as well. If we can decrease any impact on the NHS and Public Health Wales then that's a positive.

I think this is just a matter that is obviously going to be dependent on a lot more data and research for the future, but obviously I just reiterate that I think that was a very interesting comment about public health and the link with local government. I think that's a matter for further discussion in the future. 

Thank you. John Griffiths. Can we unmute John?

I thought Huw's comment was very interesting as well, because I know it's long been an ambition, and I think rightly an ambition of the sports and physical activity, leisure sectors, to make closer ties with health, because it's so obvious, isn't it, that if you do have a fitter population then they will be healthier, and you'll be preventing ill health. And yet it's been difficult, I think, really to engage the health sector to the extent necessary to really make the most of the possibilities through joint working, co-operation and even maybe some pooling of budgets. And, I think what you said would be useful in terms of furthering that agenda, but it's also a wider agenda and we need short-term improvements, and I hope that might be part of building back better.

Yes, and to be clear, I don't want to disparage colleagues in health, and the collaboration in general and specifically with this crisis between councils and health boards has been really strong in my experience. But, I think it's the difference between a clinical model and a societal model, and I've spoken to many petitioners in England who speak very positively about how there is a much greater societal understanding that is therefore reflected in policies and spend priorities now that public health sits with local government.

Thank you for that, Huw. We just have literally two minutes left in this scheduled session. I just want to say to the witnesses: is there anything that you think that we should consider in terms of making representations to Welsh Government that you haven't had an opportunity to make yet? Brian.

Yes, if possible, Chair, diolch. Thank you. I think it's really important that public bodies and Government show some optimism for the future of the sector as we come out of this crisis, because one of the few positives that was immediately evident as we went into lockdown was the importance that was placed by the public, but also Government, on physical activity and staying healthy through physical activity. So, we really need to build on that; there's an opportunity here to build on that directive effectively given by Government, and we shouldn't just expect it to continue in those areas where it has increased. Clearly, as we mentioned earlier, there are some groups where it hasn't increased and has probably gone backwards, and those gaps are in danger of widening. So, the sooner we can get some financial security for the future, so that we can help those who've rediscovered activity continue it, and help those who've yet to find it to find it, then the better for our nation. So, that would be my concluding message, if I may, on behalf of Sport Wales.

I can see Kelly agreeing with that. Anything else that you'd like to add, Kelly, that you haven't had a chance to mention yet?

No, I fully agree with that. The only other way to link it in is the work that we're doing with the chief medical officers across the home four nations around the communication of physical activity and also the surveillance of physical activity. I sit on that group and it's really positive to link that back in with the institute that I'm also sitting on as part of Sport Wales. So, I think the positive there is to make sure that we actually have this holistic opinion, and try and make sure that we can use this in a positive way and ensure that what we can do—and building on Brian's point—is that we use those messages in the right way to get the right way forward. 

Thank you. And, Huw, in addition to that key point that you've made about public health, is there anything else you'd like to add?

No, only to absolutely endorse Brian's points. I think there is a societal mindset change happening at the moment and there are certainly opportunities for increased participation if there is the resource to deliver it.

Well, thank you very much.

Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch.

And so, Members, we're now in a position to take a short break for 10 minutes. If I can ask Members to be back at your desks by 20 to three, 2.40 p.m.. Carwyn, you look confused. Is that all right? Good. [Laughter.]

Good afternoon. My name is Marcus Kingwell. I'm the chief executive of EMD UK, which is the national governing body for group exercise. EMD stands for exercise, move, dance.

Good afternoon. My name is Jonathan Ford, chief executive of the football association here in Wales.

Who'd like to start with that? Gareth, did you get that? I think Gareth may be having some difficulties. Is everybody hearing me? Yes. Well, Jonathan, do you want to make a start perhaps while we—. So, how has the Welsh Government been working with you all and engaging with you during this time?

Well, thank you very much for the opportunity, firstly. Yes, I was of course—and I was listening to the previous session. Very much, the leadership has been here by the Welsh Sports Association, which as you're aware is the governing body for all sports in Wales. We're obviously a member of that association, same as the WRU. I happen to be a director of that association too. Very much, they've taken a lead for the sector on liaising, in co-operation with Sport Wales, with the Government directly. The groups that were established have been working very well over the past few weeks, and I understand that representation will be made to the Welsh Government ahead of their announcement next week.

I think that some of the concerns that we did have originally were the fact that, of course, it's a Cabinet meeting that makes most of the decisions, and of course sport isn't necessarily represented directly in that Cabinet with a sports Minister. So, there were one or two concerns that not necessarily has somebody has got, let's say, the back of football or sport at those Cabinet meetings. But we've been reassured that those briefings do happen beforehand. But, the co-ordination and co-operation has been very much led by Sport Wales and also by the WSA, not by the Government directly.

Thank you. Gareth.

Yes, just to support Jonathan's comments, and indeed the earlier contributors. I think a silver lining, I suppose, of the pandemic has been much improved communication and very, very good collaboration between the Welsh Government, Sport Wales, WSA and the local authorities through the various resilience funds that have been established. So, in general, it's been good.

I think, along the way, especially in the early days, there were slight concerns, I know, from the clubs—who you can appreciate are generally run by volunteers—in terms of maybe, on occasion, a lack of clarity as to who to go to, who to speak to. So, I think colleagues within the union have worked very, very hard in conjunction with local authorities, and indeed with Government, in terms of supporting that.

There were issues, again early on, in that some of the funds appeared to be rather discretionary in terms of distribution. Various local authorities responded differently and that led, again, to some confusion between some of our district representatives having success on the one hand and others not. But, a lot of those issues have been ironed out. And back to the earlier comment, the relationship and the co-operation have been first class.

Good. Marcus.

Yes, I echo those points. I would say that communication has been clear, it's been timely, easy to find, and those are all very positive points.

In some areas, I think the feedback we've had from our members, who are mainly fitness instructors and group exercise instructors, is that they really want to be told what to do. They want as little grey area as possible, and that the lessons from going into a lockdown situation were just that: let's be directive and absolutely clear. The challenge we've now got, as we start to ease those restrictions—again, it's still one of clarity—but there becomes a greater divergence of what people can possibly do. You know, it's easier to say, 'Stop doing things' than, 'Start doing things by degrees'. So, I think that's a new challenge that we're facing.

Thank you. That's very helpful. And Gareth has already touched on what I wanted to ask next, which was: how easy has it been for you to communicate with your member organisations, with the clubs—in your case, Marcus, with the individual fitness instructors and others—to get the messages across to them? I don't know who wants to start on this. Marcus, we'll start with you, then.

Thank you, Chair. It's been relatively straightforward in that we use social media and digital communications extensively, and that's been well received, both by people within our membership and the wider community across the UK, as we are a UK-based body. So, getting that information out has been relatively straightforward. The problem is then knowing to what extent it's properly understood and to what extent it sticks. We've kept that messaging up and we've responded, as best we can, to incoming queries as well, which we've had to put a lot of resource into. But I feel that's been quite a good route that has been moving through to the group exercise instructors.

That's helpful. Gareth, do you want to add anything to what you've already said about communication with clubs? You've mentioned some issues around the funding and that sort of thing.

Yes. Just in general, just to give you a full picture, what we tried to do early on, every Wednesday, we send a communication out to all our clubs. Basically, the chief executive and myself put in, contribute something that we think is of interest and of use, of course. And then there are a raft of helpful suggestions, plus some news items that kind of liven up and make life more interesting for our club members. Then, every Friday, our operations department send out, again, information, mainly concerning what Government can provide and who to call, who to contact, which websites to access, et cetera, et cetera. So, those two have been very, very well received; we've even had some lovely complimentary comments from some of the national newspapers, who are basically very impressed with what we're doing. So, that's proved to be very successful and very popular.

That's great. Jonathan.

Yes. Not to repeat anything, but we're doing exactly the same. We're using, of course, all of the communication methods we have available to us, and we've maintained communication with, I certainly hope, a lot of our players, a lot of our volunteers, a lot of our officials, as well as our clubs, and also, the organs of administration. In the same way that the Welsh Government's having to do it, we're working remotely. Our board still meets on a monthly basis, our committee still meet on a monthly basis, and it's been successful as far as a communication vehicle.

You've got to balance it, of course. You know, there's almost been too much information available, and sometimes contradictory information, and so we've got to sift through that. One of the things we're finding now is, of course, the information that's needed, at an international level, and the professionalism you have at that stage of the game versus what you need, of course, for Cardiff and Swansea, who, of course, are playing in an English system, versus what you need for the Welsh Premier League. As you come down the pyramid, you've got a different communication that you need to communicate to those guys, and especially when it comes around to talking about returning-to-play protocols. You know, there are different levels for different audiences. So,we've just got to try and act as that filtration system to ensure that the right message gets to the right people at the right time.

Thank you. That's very helpful. If I can bring in Mick now—Mick Antoniw.

I have a few questions, really, about the impact on sport, which is obviously inevitable from the measures that have been taken with regard to the pandemic. Perhaps if you could just outline how you see the economic impact on your respective areas of sport and responsibility, perhaps with any views you have upon any geographical variations and the effect at different levels of club and so on, just so we can get an understanding of the scale of the financial and economic impact.

Let's start with Jonathan because he hasn't gone first yet.

Yes. Thank you very much. It's massive and, of course, we haven't done the full calculations. I mean, I'll start, if I may, delineating between the three of them. The first to come back, clearly, will be high-level domestic football. So, you will see the Premier League coming back, of course, in England. The Bundesliga have been a successful reintroduction, and La Liga and others will come back. And I think, at that top level, the economics work. The money from the tv markets in football, as we all are aware, is quite substantial, and the economics will allow that to survive. 

When we come down, of course, to more domestic football, especially domestic football in this country, and we're very much more reliant on match-day income, so gate receipts and also clubhouse incomes, so the income that they would take by using their clubhouses, the bar, the facilities that they have—that is fundamental to the success of those clubs. Without that income, there will be some definite economic impacts that they will have to reassess their business models to understand how it works.

Of course, to the grass-roots level, there is going to be a massive impact on the grass-roots level. The number of people who are willing to participate in sports, especially in our particular case, myself and the WRU, where we're talking about a team sport, a contact sport and an international sport—those are the three hardest barriers to get over. So, as you can imagine, it's pretty tough. Even at a grass-roots level, you're still a team sport and a contact sport. With those two alone, we've got to wait and hope we can get over the back of this pandemic before we can build it back up. So, there are massive financial difficulties ahead; there are definitely conversations we're having with regard to how we're going to budget and make our way through it.

The key difference that I'd also like to explore isn't just about the different levels of football; it's also about the difference between male and female football and other football that is played. I think we just need to be really careful of the growth that we've all made, for example, in the women's game. That could be completely torn up on the back of this pandemic, and I think we must look differently and through different lenses at the different aspects of the sport that we all love and are responsible for. 

That's helpful. Gareth, and then I'll bring in Marcus.

I suppose the word to describe it all is 'catastrophic', really. So, just to give you an insight, the first impact upon us was obviously—well, hopefully, the postponement of the Wales-Scotland game. If you think that we took a £10 million hit on that, and bearing in mind the turnover is just over £90 million, so you can see the impact of one match. So, it's going to be a tough one to recover from, obviously.

I would explain ours not in terms of—I think Mick [Inaudible.] geographical maybe, but I think our split would probably be the community game and the stadium, I suppose, would probably be the three buckets, if you like. The community game, obviously, is really feeling the pinch. We have just over 300 clubs. They're very often—to my mind, they're more than just sporting hubs, they're very much societal hubs if you like. In terms of whatever else happened in various communities around Wales, they're very often the only surviving hub, if you like. So, they play a greater role than just playing rugby, so that's quite important.

We took the opportunity, actually, to safeguard everybody's funding, including Government share-outs as well, I think, in the sense that we wanted to try and find out what the actual situation was in all our 300 clubs. So, we carried out a survey, and a lot of the clubs have obviously been successful in accessing the various Governments' support funds. We've obviously distributed some moneys to them as well. In the short term, if you're looking over the next six months, then a very, very high percentage of our community clubs have reserves to survive that period. The concern then, of course, becomes if we go further into 2021.

The professional game is obviously taking and will take a huge hit. The sad thing about it all from our perspective is that we were in a reasonably, or very good position, actually, looking at the financial year this year, where we could—[Inaudible.]—support to the professional game next year, moving forward. That has got challenges that we are addressing currently. We had a board meeting yesterday, quite a lengthy board meeting, to look at all the options and all the various funds we can look to access, be it World Rugby or, indeed, any other channels.

And the third element that, again, is proving difficult is the stadium. Obviously, it hosts all the major rugby tests within the calendar. The Scotland game we lost. We have the four autumn tests against the southern hemisphere countries still in the diary, and, hopefully, they will take place, and England and Ireland next year—the two big six nations matches. So, you can just do the maths on the one game I mentioned earlier on and see what's ahead of us in the next 12 months if the six test matches don't take place. We've obviously lost as well four or five quite significant summer events, which, again, plays a huge part in our revenues, which are all distributed at year end. We're not a profit-making organisation, so all our moneys go out to sustain the community clubs, the professional game and the capital expenditure in maintaining the stadium. So that's an issue as well, and the concern, of course, moving forward, is once we've lost events this year, will we be successful in ensuring that they come back, and indeed that we're successful in ensuring other events come as well? But that's in line with obviously all other stadiums as well. There are some huge challenges. 

Thank you. Marcus.

Yes, well the fitness industry in the UK is worth over £5 billion per annum. In Wales, sport and physical activity is something like £1.1 billion, and effectively it was turned off overnight on 20 March when venues were forced to close. That's not just the gyms and leisure centres—that's the community centres, the village halls, the smaller school facilities, none of which could take the exercise, the fitness classes that they had been doing in the past. So it's an immediate turning off of that income stream to a variety of different settings. For many of the people we represent, they are self-employed group exercise instructors, so they've had to either put their classes online and find a way of charging for them, which is not straightforward, or apply for the self-employed income support scheme, which is very welcome, but actually, a lot of people have found that difficult to access for various reasons. Group exercise might be a part-time employment for them rather than full time. They might have come into it in the last 12 months, in which case they don't have the financial records to prove the case of their previous earnings and profits, or they might be running it through a microbusiness, in other words, a limited company, and are therefore not allowed. So there are a great many self-employed people here of various types who have not been able to claim anything, and have basically been living off either their partner's income or their savings to get them through, because they're not entitled to any financial support, and you have to wonder whether they will still be here again when they're allowed to start teaching classes in their community settings.

To pick up on a point that Gareth made, we must remember the community and social impact of sport and physical activity. Being active is a great thing in its own right, but it's being around other people, and how physical activity is a social glue that enables people to make contact and combat loneliness and build community connections, and that has also been dismantled. That has a social value that you can interpret into pounds, and in fact, there's a recent study that reckons that the lockdown in the fitness sector is going to cost the UK a social value of £2.1 billion. So there are massive implications in a range of different directions here, not to be underestimated.

Thank you. Mick.

There are a number of very specific long-term difficulties that all sport is going to face up to. Where sponsorship is concerned, obviously, it's dependent on businesses being viable enough to actually put sponsorship. That creates issues, as well as the holding of events. People putting money into sports, attending events and so on—with higher unemployment it means that money is short, so there's a shortage of that as well. So, all round, you're being hit from virtually every angle.

Perhaps one of the immediate things I'd like to ask about is the viability and the survival of clubs and of sporting organisations and so on. Is any work going on in terms of trying to identify where those are that are most at risk, whether they be in rugby, in sport generally, whether it be in football or in the fitness area? What work is being done to actually try and identify that and to develop, I suppose, what would be the survival plan to get us through the next couple of years?

I'll start with you, Marcus.

Yes, certainly. In the gym sector, UK Active, which is the national body that looks after the gyms, is doing a full economic impact assessment, and the economic case to help gyms get back up and running, but I know that that's been full of challenges. One of the prime ones is that the guidance at the moment is that when activity is allowed to take place indoors again, it will probably be at 50 per cent capacity.

Now, when you start to do the mathematics on that, a lot of classes and sessions won't break even, so then you start to need to have bigger spaces in which to run those kinds of classes—looking at sports halls and so forth. So, there are a lot of problems there. I must say, it has driven ingenuity and creativity within the sector, that operators are looking at different models, which will be introducing classes and sessions that are timetabled throughout the day, recognising that many people will continue to work from home and may have flexibility in their working patterns and therefore can go to their gyms and so forth in the daytime hours rather than the typical peak periods, which are first thing in the morning, lunchtime and 5 p.m. to 7 p.m. in the evening. The same problem faces the self-employed instructors, who are hiring church halls, community centres and so forth, which is: do they have the physical space to put people with 2m social distancing between them and enough room to move around as well, which is effectively probably 3.5m to 4m to provide a safe environment and run a class that is sustainable. The other aspect to this, of course, is that the consumer themselves need to feel safe coming back into that environment and, at the moment, we've got a mixed picture on consumer confidence. 

Thank you. Gareth. 

I think I've partly answered the question in terms of the review that we've already carried out, which is probably a short-term analysis, if you like. I think, Mick, you asked about the longer term, and that's obviously going to be a difficult one, it's going to be a challenge, it'll need greater creativity, as Marcus mentioned, in terms of being more entrepreneurial, which, to be fair, a lot of the clubs are already doing, in that some clubs will concentrate on improving their kitchen facilities—they do Sunday lunches, or whatever. Those sorts of processes have already started. 

Apart from the financial role, I think the other concern that I have is that, whilst the game is already under pressure in terms of maintaining a place, which is the backbone of every club, I suppose, the longer this goes on—people are generally creatures of habit, and the habit of turning up for training twice a week, which, again, feeds into the healthy lifestyle—do they find other things to do that are possibly more passive, more dormant? So, I think there are other concerns that we are storing up. I was just reading an article in, I think, The Daily Telegraph this morning, about the concern about schoolchildren missing out on physical activity, and that again is storing up—. So, I think there's a financial challenge in terms of keeping 320 clubs going, but I think there's also the playing, the volunteers. A lot of the guys and girls that run our clubs and contribute towards our clubs are volunteers, many are going on in age, like I am, but do they then say, 'Well, look, I've done my bit'? So, we could have voids in many places as well, apart from the financial losses.  

Thank you, Gareth. Jonathan. 

Thank you. Yes, again, not wanting to repeat people, but in football in Wales, we've got well in excess of 1,000 clubs here. Clearly, there are going to be, probably, fewer clubs at the end of it. At the top end of the pyramid, there are clubs that have got major club houses, major infrastructure and are businesses in their own right, of course. We have been making sure that there's communication flow with them with regard to the Government schemes that are available, whether that's the sport resilience fund, whether that's the furlough opportunity—that they've been communicated appropriately—and hopefully there are steps that they've been taking to protect their business for the longer term viability. So, those kinds of things, as you would expect, have been happening. 

The bit that Gareth just mentioned that I was going to mention, of course, is the volunteer piece. We've got the biggest volunteer workforce in this country. And, as Gareth mentioned, ours are slightly elderly—people who are stewarding on the terraces, people who are helping out at the clubs. The vast majority of people are unpaid, and a lot of those are probably in at-risk groups, and I think we will see a great loss there. That is a major concern. I think we're all aware within the public sector we do rely on people and people's goodwill, and I just worry that we need to continue to try to have a succession plan in place to ensure that we've got the next generation of volunteers coming through. Without those, I think sport is struggling for the future. 

This leads me on to, really, the final point. You've answered a number of things, and I'm glad you raised the issue about the volunteers and the impact there, because that goes to the core of it. But in terms of what we could do collectively, what Government could do, it seems to me that sport goes to the heart of our communities, our society, our health, our fitness, our well-being, education, health, and so on—is there a need for almost a preparation of a sporting Marshall plan, a sporting relaunch, really, to completely put the issue of sport—and I know we'll go to culture and arts as well—at the core of coming out of coronavirus? Because one of the dangers you highlight is the cultural change—that people become more dormant, they get out of the habit, volunteers decide they're happier sat in the sofa watching et cetera, and that all would be an enormous cultural and social loss to us. How do you think, working collectively, Government, with all those areas, could move forward, or basically overcome, what is really a catastrophic hit to the sector? 

Who'd like to start? Marcus, and then I'll bring you all in. 

Thank you, Chair. I'll say, primarily, it's on a health message—there are certainly other aspects too—but not to forget that being physically active gives you a better immune response to infections, and improvements to cardiovascular health as well. I think in the previous panel session, the witness from Swansea University was telling us about the benefits that that can have for people's resilience. We know also of the problems with coronavirus and people with obesity, those overweight and with diabetes, who suffer more than most. These are all situations that can be aided by increases in physical activity. The problem we have around physical inactivity across the UK and in Wales is significant; it's costing the economy billions of pounds a year. So, I think if we can get the sport Marshall plan to be focused on the health benefits to make the country more resilient to future infections and other public health crises, I think that will be a very significant outcome.

Thank you. Before I bring Gareth and Jonathan in, David Melding, were you indicating then? 

I just wanted to ask—I think something of the reverse, sociologically, might happen. After the second world war, there was an absolute surge in sporting activity, and spectator sports as well, and a huge growth in clubs, and all the rest of it. It seems to me that something similar might happen, actually, and part of the problem we will have is that, at the community level, where there'll be quite a lot of enthusiasm and people wanting to come in, but the kind of model doesn't work any more, because the one thing we won't be able to have is the spectator attendance, certainly at the regional and perhaps the lower leagues in terms of football. And that's where the disjoint might be. I don't share your gloom about people suddenly becoming coach potatoes; I think people are just desperate to get out there and do things again in sport.

Thank you, David. If I can ask first Gareth and then Jonathan to respond to Mick's original point, and perhaps I'll bring Marcus back in if you want to respond to David as well. So, Gareth and Jonathan, you can respond to both points and then I'll bring Marcus back for David specifically.

I think David's point is interesting; it's something that we've discussed as well. We shouldn't be too gloomy about it, but I think we have to be realistic because of the age profile of a lot of our volunteers. There will be concern, I think, about people re-entering the sport, if you like, because of the nature of the socialising et cetera. 

But to answer Mick's earlier point on what can we do together—I think probably 'together' is the important word there. Obviously, we'd like to feel that we can continue the really positive relationship that's been developed and nurtured over the last 13 or 14 weeks or so with Welsh Government, the sports association, Sport Wales; I think that's been a real—[Inaudible.] Obviously, we talk about revenue and funding—that's an obvious ask, I suppose, from everybody, so the—[Inaudible.]—getting together—[Inaudible]. It's important, I think, that it's possible, because of the other benefits of that. And in our—[Inaudible.]—we would earmark the stadium, which, as I say, is important not just for rugby, as the primary user, but I think it is an iconic statement that, wherever you go in the world, everybody knows what was the Millennium Stadium and is now the Principality Stadium, so it's just about how we maintain that as a beacon, if you like, in attracting major events, and as a major attraction in Wales, it obviously has the other—[Inaudible.]—for economic benefits.

Thank you. Jonathan.

Thank you very much. First and foremost, I think the trust has got to be there. I think you're not wrong. I think the latent demand will come back and people will want to re-engage. I heard on the previous session—I mean, there's probably a slightly more active nation because people are using the opportunity, if they're furloughed or working from home, to get out on their bike or to go running or to maintain some level of fitness. But ultimately, the trust needs to be there, especially when you're talking about team sports and contact sports, and we've got to obviously build that trust up. But in order to do that, obviously, we're working with the Welsh Government—we all are individually—with regard to the umbrella guidelines that have been put in place, to interpret those, to ensure that all of our sports can resume and safely resume.

But going forward, whilst I think there is a restart needed, as Gareth mentioned, working together across the sector, I think, is very important, but also not just sport, it should be sport and health. We've long campaigned Government departments to ensue that we do work together, and I do wonder whether or not this is the time—the catalystic opportunity—that we can really get the health sector working with the sports sector, because if you bring those together, that is where we can have great power. And if the health service and the health sector turn around and say, 'Right, we want everybody to be active now, because of the benefits and because of the help with future pandemics and the spread of this disease and tackling this disease'—that could be a massive message that could hit home with a lot of people. 

Thank you. Marcus, did you just want to come back quickly on David's point—that we might see the opposite effect?

Yes, indeed, thanks Chair. I've been looking at the research that Sport Wales have commissioned through Savanta ComRes that said that the lockdown has worsened the gap between active and inactive people in Wales, with those from more deprived backgrounds suffering the most. So, while the, if you like, middle classes—the ABC 1s—have been doing more physical activity, developing and engraining that as a habit, those from the poorest backgrounds are doing less, and I'm worried that they will then be making that into a habit as well. So, we have quite a divided picture. Now, this is about participation rather than spectating, but I think we need to be careful not to have, if you like, single answers—it's more nuanced than that, and it is worrying that the social inequalities might be increased through this particular situation. 

Thank you. That's very helpful. Carwyn Jones has indicated that he feels that the questions he was planning to ask at this point have been asked and answered in the discussion so far. So, if I can go straight to David Melding with some questions around easing lockdown. Can we unmute David, please?

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. We heard earlier that the communication from the Welsh Government has worked very well. I think you all said that—most positive, actually—the open channel. I wonder what your assessment is of how you have influenced Welsh Government policy and do you think that they've listened to you in those terms? And, obviously, this is quite important for the next few months, assuming that the COVID infection continues to be controlled and we see something of a return to a more standard practice.

Gareth, do you want to come in on that?

Yes, obviously, we've, again, been working quite closely, heeding the advice, working collectively. I think a report went in yesterday, I think, in terms of sport's contribution to the eventual announcement from the First Minister next week. So, that, again, is a positive—that we're all contributing collectively towards that. We discussed it at the board yesterday: whilst there's a great push, funnily enough, especially from the—[Inaudible.]—game to get back playing, and, obviously, we're trying to keep positive, if you like, and there was even a—[Inaudible.]—from World Rugby, about two or three weeks ago, about how we should—[Inaudible.]—the laws of the game that would reduce the risk of the infection by 30 or 40 per cent. I spoke against that, because reducing your risk by 30 per cent—[Inaudible.]—especially in certain positions. So, we're trying to keep people on—[Inaudible.] It's quite good in the sense that sports are leading the way in returning, I suppose. Football, obviously, has come back in Europe, will come back in—[Inaudible.]—and cricket has got three test matches lined up shortly with the West Indies. So, we can actually look and learn, I think, from what they've done.

Obviously, our game in particular—rugby is, obviously, one of the most difficult ones, because of the direct contact, especially for some of the players. That is a tough one to come back. And, obviously, the commercial end—we are so dependent on mass gatherings for our business. That, again, is going to be last in the queue, I suppose, in terms of a full easing of lockdown. 

So, some tough times, but opportunities as well to learn from other sports who will probably emerge a little bit sooner than ourselves.

Thank you. Jonathan.

Yes, I just want to mention, on the notion of communication—it's not a criticism, but, of course, when this all started, sport very much took matters into their own hands. At the time, the UK Government was not advising major events to shut down, but we very much recognised the situation, understood the public sentiment, and made the decisions ourselves, and football, of course, was the first major sport to make the decision to suspend football. We did that in collaboration with our colleagues at the Football Association and the Scottish Football Association, so we pretty much did it in unison. And, likewise, on the return to football, the sector very much has led the way.

Now, I'm pleased to say we're working very collaboratively and closely with your colleagues and your advisers. But it's not been direct from the Welsh Government. As I said, it's not a criticism—I can pick up the phone any time myself. But I haven't been in direct dialogue, for example, with the sport Minister or other members of the Welsh Government. It's been very much the industry that has got together and realised that we need to work together in order to bring ourselves back to protect the future of our respective sports and the industry.

Thank you. Marcus.

It's a slightly different perspective from us, as we are a UK-wide body. So, our prime engagement has been through the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport in Westminster, through the Sport and Recreation Alliance and Sport England. So, it's a slightly different route. But what I would say as an observation, really— similar lines to Jonathan—is the importance of collaboration across home nations, and then also recognising the differences. Obviously, there are different sets of guidance that are in place. In England now, a group exercise instructor could run a class outside in the open air with a small group of people, whereas that isn't permitted within Wales. The law is clear on that in both nations, but sometimes that isn't always understood by the people that are outside. So, I think there's a requirement to keep reinforcing those messages and get as much clarification and joined-up thinking in advance.

Thank you. David.

I wonder do any of the witnesses have wider frustrations with Government—it'll be interesting to see if it's with the UK Government as well, in terms of Marcus's insight—about, perhaps, they've not been responsive as you would like, in terms of the policy influence you'd like to have.

Anybody want to pick that up?

Are you asking for an industry point of view, as the chief executive, or as a member of the public? I think—

Well, I don't think your personal views would be excluded, but perhaps more from the sporting—

I think Marcus mentioned it. I think, if I may, there is a slightly inconsistent approach across all devolved Governments, and I think that probably—especially in sports—plays a bit hard on the basis that we, of course, have exiled clubs, so we've had to work closely with the Welsh Government. I'm pleased to say they're very responsive, because we have responsibilities to member clubs, including, of course, Cardiff City and Swansea City, and they play in an English league, and, as a result of that, we need to ensure there's a level playing field. Of course, rugby have the same, because they work, of course, internationally too. So, it was very important to ensure that there was no disadvantage because we have clubs based in Wales versus clubs that they're playing against in another country.

But, as I said, I'm pleased to say that that was picked up very quickly, and we work very closely. But, yes, there is an inconsistent approach at the moment, and it does cause some concerns as to when we can resume sport—hopefully, at the same time across the whole of the United Kingdom.  

Thank you. Gareth.

We haven't really encountered any—[Inaudible.]—yet. The only issue that could arise, of course, is that there is a world body that oversees the game, and then you have different—[Inaudible.]—bodies, if you like, like the six nations or the respective leagues that actually play across borders. So, for example, the Pro14, which is the competition the Welsh regions play as their domestic competition—Ireland are attempting to restart those fixtures in the third week in August. They're starting full training, whereas we can't. So, there could be some variances down the track with those, in terms of what the Welsh Government decides in terms of return to playing, contact, et cetera, and then again further down the road in terms of mass gatherings and just the issue of distance or what have you. Do we in Wales have something different to the Irish, for example, when we want to play a test match against Ireland? So, there could be variances yet. 

Thank you, Gareth. Marcus. 

Yes, just very briefly, I think, looking back, probably the lessons I would say that will be taken from this are that, sometimes, the public announcements that are made by Government, it takes a little while for the official publications to back them up. So, there has been a vacuum of a number of days where we have been faced with questions from our instructors and we've not been able to give a definitive answer, because you go to the website and it's still the previous set of guidance that is up there for two or three days, and it's just that kind of joined up and speed of response from Government that has frustrated some people sometimes. So, yes, that's probably been our main issue. 

Thank you. David, anything further from you?

Yes. Finally, is there any way of phasing some return, or is it pretty much that we would permit team sports and the training for them, or not, or could we—? Is there a middle ground, at least for a little while, as we are testing things, for saying that the five-a-side and seven-a-side games are permitted and possibly training, but not with the full team, or, you know, having two sessions? How should we be approaching these things? 

Jonathan, I can see you indicated from the start on this.

Yes. Thank you very much. It's a good question. As you would imagine, there's a massive phased approach. We've got guidelines from the very top of the game, which is—you know, we've been looking at what the Bundesliga or the English Premiere League have been doing. Of course, you've got, as I mentioned, the international set-up, Cardiff City set-up, the Welsh Premiere League and then the lower leagues, and they've all got slightly different criteria. The higher up you go, clearly, the money is there, the more testing regime you'd expect to be put in place, and, as you come down, of course, the economics don't work for that testing. So, we are very much talking about a phased return.

No surprises—Bundesliga, English Premier League, et cetera, et cetera, returning first. We certainly have to get going. We've got clubs participating in European competitions pretty soon. So, pre-season training, of course, followed by friendly matches. All of our testing regimes—a lot of our individuals are able to train now, the professional players are, they're training individually, then it will be training in pairs, then it'll be training in higher numbers. An awful lot of our junior scheme—of course, here in this country, we don't necessary play the 11-a-side anyway. You're aware that we start, of course, at low levels, three on three, four on four, five on five, all the way through the different age groups. So, we already have the small-sided game that's available to us, and we'll continue to do that, but it is absolutely a phased approach and we have to be honest with ourselves. We need to overcome an awful lot more in this pandemic before we can return fully at a grass-roots level.

Thank you. Gareth.

Yes. We've got, in terms of return to play, a road map, which is following the—[Inaudible.]—I suppose, in terms of the traffic lights. We've got a—. There will be a red phase of just individual training, moving to the next phase, which will be amber, where we'll reintroduce the groups, and then you're into green. The start of green—light green, I suppose—would be matches without spectators, moving into cross-border, then, ultimately, whenever that will be, the competitions. So, that's the sort of phased return to play. Just to take up Jonathan's point in terms of—. Something we've been trying to encourage in rugby, anyway, is that it doesn't have to be and shouldn't be, and thankfully isn't anymore, just a club's team, men's rugby on a Saturday. We've already introduced, obviously, great emphasis on the women's game, but also we're looking at touch rugby, playing beach rugby. Playing doesn't have to be 15 players. In the past, if teams turned up with only 13 men or 13 women, the game would be cancelled. Now we're saying, 'Well, let's share. If we've only got 28 players, let's have a match with 14 a side and we'll loan a player.' So, those things have already started, that sort of psychology—[Inaudible.] It's difficult to break down, especially for the traditionalists, but this, again, could accelerate that, I think, in terms of the differing forms of the game, and differing forms of the game that will bring more fun as well.

Thank you. Just before I bring Marcus in, just to check with witnesses—. We may overrun a little bit, if we want to get through everything we need. Are you, if necessary—I don't know if it will be necessary, but are you—able to stay with us up to perhaps 4 o'clock? Is that possible? Perfectly fine if you can't. Yes. That's great. We may not, but it just gives us a bit more flexibility. Marcus, if you want to come in on this.

Thank you, Chair. Yes, to David's point, actually—totally recommend a phased return. We have our own return-to-play plans. We have a group exercise instructor pack, support pack, that shows it in two main phases. One is when venues are closed, as they are currently— so, in other words, how to run your classes in an online format and prepare for the opening. Tomorrow, we are expecting guidance to come out relating to England for the return to indoor venues, which will be a major change, and we're also preparing our instructors for that as well so they can start to consider the social distancing that's required indoors, the cleanliness regimes, the signage, the use of changing, toilets, et cetera, et cetera.

I think we've got to be prepared also for the scenario of infection rates increasing again and what we might do about that: so, what measures we could do to maybe reduce the usage of certain sports venues for a period of time—it might be in particular towns or cities— and how that might work. So, it's a horrible big piece of contingency planning but an important one, because we are in uncharted territory currently, but certainly advocating a phased approach.

I'm working with a number of other national governing bodies, both English and UK wide, and we're all going down a similar pathway of producing guidance for our own sports but also sharing that guidance, so we can see—to be as consistent as we possibly can be, and, for example, for ball sports, they're sharing information on hygiene of the ball, where it's handled, and equipment and these sorts of matters, so there's a great deal to be learned from collaboration too.

Thank you, that's very helpful. Anything further from you, David?

No, thank you, Chair. Thank you.

Thank you. Well, in that case, I'll move on to John Griffiths, looking in a bit more detail about return of sport, and I know Carwyn Jones has got some questions he wants to bring in on this as well. So, over to you, John.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. I wonder, first of all, Jonathan, if I could ask you about your comments about making sure that Welsh clubs playing in English pyramids are not disadvantaged, because I know we've got—Cardiff and Swansea will be returning to action soon and, of course, league 2 and my beloved Newport County are in a different position. And obviously, they're very reliant on gate receipts at that level of football, and they're keen that there is a good joining up between Wales and England to make sure that, at that level, they're not disadvantaged in terms of a return to competition. What would you say on those anxieties?

Yes, I mean, obviously, we saw the news with the National Football League, the English Football League, of course, and league 1 and league 2 doing exactly the same thing that we did, of course, and, unfortunately, we had to curtail our season. We used the points-per-game system. The reality of the testing regime that was recommended at a senior level—I mean, if you look at Cardiff and Swansea, bearing in mind they're doing arguably the minimal amount of tests, two tests per week, the costs for Cardiff City alone are £10,500 a week to do that testing. The Bundesliga budget—you'll probably be not at all surprised have finished the league this summer, and their bill is about €4 million on that testing regime alone. They're doing a little bit more testing than the Premier League or the football league, but, even so, it's pretty cost prohibitive to get going again. And that is just the testing; you've got the rest to do, of course, with regard to the stadium environment, you've got the rest to do with regard to the training environment, so it's a very costly thing to do, and that's why we've always said, as we, hopefully, get over this pandemic, the requirements will come down.

But you're not wrong, John: the needs of those clubs—as you come to the middle leagues, they are, of course, reliant on that match day income. And yes, there is a little bit of money at tv level, but primarily, those clubs are afforded their profit and loss through that match day income, and without that, it's going to be a little bit more difficult. Now the good news is, and one of the things we are campaigning to the Welsh Government is exactly what is the definition of a large crowd? Because, as you know, at Rodney Parade, the capacity was filled many times; they could probably safely put a good number of people through the turnstiles there. We're asking exactly the same for our Premier League; if you take Barry Town United as a good example, they play at Jenner Park, which is a 2,500-seat capacity stadium, but they're likely to get probably about 500 people. In fact, they'd probably really like 500 people there; they'd be delighted with 500 paying punters coming through the door. So, how can we work with the Welsh Government to ensure that we don't have a one-brush approach of, okay, a large gathering—yes, 500 people is a large gathering in a confined space, but in a larger space with social distancing, it arguably could be and should be permitted. So, hopefully there are some solutions that we can find together, John.

Thank you. John.

I wonder if we could come on to some of the practicalities that you've already touched on in terms of the return of sport and, firstly, the different tiers of clubs and when they might be able to start full training again, and how much practice do players need before they're able to resume playing? 

If I can bring Gareth in first on this—a big question.

Yes. Times have changed since I played, John. [Laughter.] There are differing opinions on this in terms of, obviously in rugby nowadays, the danger for the players, especially the forwards, is if they're not lifting weights three times a week et cetera, they do lose bulk. If you look at some of the retired players, you probably wouldn't recognise half of them now because of the weight they lose. So, that's a danger.

We meet, again, regularly with our fitness guys, strength and conditioning guys; we've done sessions with some of the staff as well to try and keep everybody fit in terms of mentally as well physically. And I think the suggestion was that, after two weeks of not doing weights you start losing weight, and you lose it quite quickly, and then it takes you twice as long to get that weight back. So, there are a couple of issues there. I suppose—and it mainly relates to the forwards—but if they come back and they're not at their fighting weight, as it were, which then can lead to injuries because they will still want to play as they played at their fighting weight. So, I think that needs to be fairly— [Inaudible.]—really. And I understand that the thought is that it's probably a six to eight-week training regime to get back to being able to play.

So, there are a few issues. The players could be exposed to injury; they then can be exposed to poor performance. So, if the return to play means finishing the season, for example, by playing some very important matches that lead to where are you going to be playing next year—are you going to be playing in the top competitions next year in Europe, or does it lead to how do Wales finish the international season, and does that impact on our seeding for the next Rugby World Cup? So, there are quite a number of issues attached to ensuring the appropriate lead-in time to get back to full fitness.

Thank you. Jonathan.

Yes, thank you. Not dissimilar, slightly less in time—six weeks is our ideal term in accordance with our doctors and strength and conditioning coaches. That's ideally what we would like to work on with our clubs that are going to be playing in Europe. Clearly, we don't as yet quite know our return-to-play date. I've got a meeting with all of the national associations of UEFA next week, next Wednesday, and that will probably, hopefully, allow us to understand what those dates are. There is a difference of course, John, between the professional players and the amateur players. And, of course, as you know, the professional players, in definition terms, are those where it is their place of work and their primary income; they are allowed to resume training now. And so, in your particular case, in Newport's case, they will be able to get back to pre-season training pretty quickly.

But then you've got the complication of the registration windows and the transfer windows and, of course, we need to ensure here in Wales that we're aligned with the English system, which might cause us some problems if we want to start playing football sooner in Wales, because of course, they're finishing their season, still, at the Premier League and the Championship level. So, there are some complications. The running time ideally is six weeks to get not just fit but match fit; you can bring that down just slightly by a couple of weeks—that's the minimum period.

Before I bring Marcus in, I can see Gareth wants to come back in on this.

Yes, just one other point that's quite important in [Inaudible.], which, again, we were taken through yesterday in terms of both the professional game and the community games, is the insurance aspect. So, we've been working very closely with insurance brokers as well. It's proving a challenge. I mentioned earlier on that the community games are really keen to get back into training and what have you, and getting player registration done, looking at transfers et cetera. So, we've actually put a hold on that. So, we're not encouraging them to start transferring players, starting full-contact training, because it wouldn't be insured. So, that's quite critical, really.

A very important point. Marcus, do you want to come in on this?

Yes, just very briefly, because obviously, we don't have a club structure. Effectively, we've been encouraging instructors to stay fit and active, they're all keen professionals, so that's fairly straightforward, and they'll be modifying their classes to recognise that many of their returning people—participants may be out of shape. That's something you would expect a professional instructor to do anyway.

Thank you. I know that John Griffiths has got some more questions, but if I can bring Carwyn Jones in here and then I'll come back to you, John, if that's okay. Carwyn. [Inaudible.] Sorry, I'm not hearing you, Carwyn. 

I can hear you.

Okay, let's try.

Hello, can you hear me now?

We're not hearing you very well.

Can you hear me now?

That's better.

Okay, thank you. It's to do with playing professional sport in empty stadiums, to Gareth, really, to take their view on it. We saw the NRL go back last week in Australia and the AFL is going back this week. Is it worth playing professional sport in an empty stadium? Clearly, you're not going to make much money out of it. So, I just wanted your view on it. Is it worth doing? It is for the spectators on tv, obviously. And is there a case for saying that, actually, even if it's a pretty small empty stadium it's actually going to whet the appetite of the sports fan? We're seeing super league go back in New Zealand on Saturday in front of almost full stadiums and there seems to be demand there for people to watch the game. So, might it help to increase demand for watching professional sports in the longer term, even if the stadiums are empty in the short term?

It's a good point. It's funny, I had a debate with BBC this morning. I think it is probably worth doing. It's not going to be a huge commercial advantage. Rugby is still very reliant on money coming in at the gate, if you like, money coming through sponsorship on the day, the hospitality, et cetera. Whereas football—[Inaudible.]—is significantly more, but it would still be worth doing it. I think it would send out that good news message to people. Even if New Zealand this weekend weren't playing in front of crowds, I'd be quite keen to tune in, because I think we all want to see sport coming back; ideally, yes, with full crowds, but I think that would be a more-than-acceptable first step. That's a personal view, more than a rugby administrator point of view, but I think it's got more positives than negatives. 

Jonathan.

Yes, thank you. At the top of the game, of course, the economics are there, with the tv revenue, the sponsorship revenue and other things, it does make it absolutely recommended. But I pick on the point that Gareth mentioned, sport really is a bit of a social barometer. And of course, when the difficult decision was made to curtail our league and not play international sports, and the same that the WRU had to do, of course, with the Scotland match, that's when the panic really set it. Everybody was, of course, hearing it on the news, but when sport turned around and said, 'Okay, no more sport', the panic buying set in and people realised, 'Oh my gosh, if they're not playing any sport, it means it's really serious.'

I'd like to think that sport has got a role within society to help see that, hopefully, we are overcoming a little bit of the pandemic and there is light at the end of the tunnel. And if sport is coming back, that hopefully means that we will resume a new normal soon. And we're very keen to play our role within society, as you know, and if we can assist in society's ambition and generate a greater level of confidence in society, I think we'd be very willing to stand up and make sure that we do play our part.

Thank you. Do you want to comment on that, Marcus, at all? Not directly addressed at you. Okay. Carwyn you have a second question.

A second and last question from me, again, directed to Jonathan and Gareth, if I may. I agree with what you both said about the morale issue, people wanting to see sport—absolutely right. I was watching national rugby league last week, in an empty stadium, but it was live sport.

But the second point is this, and it comes back to this issue of demand: anything that can be done, surely, to increase that demand in the short term, to release that pent-up demand must be useful commercially. I'm just thinking in this way, that, if I was a broadcaster, I'd be thinking, 'Well, sporting bodies are cash-strapped, we can actually drive down the kind of money that we'd be willing to pay as part of a broadcasting contract.' We've seen it in Australia, of course, with Rugby Australia—an existential problem there with the union. They've just recently, yesterday, signed a contract with Sky—no, Fox, I think—which is far, far less than I suspect they would have had otherwise. So, what I'm trying to do is to bring these two things together and say, 'Does having professional sport in an empty stadium create that demand that would help to balance any negotiations in the future when it comes to broadcasting rights or when it comes to any organisation wanting to invest in sport?' Because one of the things that have been said to me a few times in the past week is, 'Will there be a temptation for some broadcasters to say, "It's a biased market, and so we're going to drive down the amount we have to pay for broadcasting rights"?'

Who'd like to start on that? Jonathan.

Gareth's got a future negotiation coming up pretty soon, so he's probably best placed.

Okay, we'll start with Gareth.

I think we were probably in an interesting position, anyway, and that sort of play, Carwyn, that you mentioned from broadcasters, we were in a very delicate position, really, because the market had actually—I wouldn't say collapsed, it was muted somewhat. I think this now possibly gives us a fresh start. I think there are differing views on it, particularly now, we're at the stage where most of the products that are available, if you like—the autumn tests are available, because all the old contracts are exhausted. We've got private equity that's come into the sport latterly, the Pro14 are already signed up and we should hear the week after next of any arrangements with—[Inaudible.]—moving forward. So, that coming—[Inaudible.]—way as well.

So, I think our dynamic, and then there's this—[Inaudible.]—issue, I suppose. Our dynamic has actually been, I'd say, somewhat precarious over the last 12 months or so, but that's actually changed for the positive, despite the pandemic, and I think it almost gives—I'd like to think, with a positive hat on, that it could be a launchpad; we almost start afresh. That links in as well, obviously, in view of the discussions that are going on over the terms of the home of World Rugby.

Now, professional rugby has had three basic issues over the last 25 years. There's been an issue between the northern hemisphere and the southern hemisphere, there's been an issue between club and country, there's been an issue in terms of how do we encourage and nurture the development of the countries outside the top 10 to make it an even better, wider world game. We have a chance now to recalibrate all that, as long as people are prepared to compromise. Everybody will have to compromise, whether it's the unions, the clubs, whether it's north or south, or whatever. We've got an opportunity, this is what the pandemic has created; out of every cloud, I suppose, there's a positive lining. So, this could give us a fresh start, if you like, so that's the positive that could come out of it down the track in terms of broadcasting and sponsorship.

Thank you. Is that all from you, Carwyn? Thank you. Back to you then, John. Can we unmute John Griffiths, please?

Diolch. Gareth, I wonder if there's any more that you could say about the autumn Wales internationals and what's likely to happen.

I wish I could. Obviously, we're working out the scenarios. The ideal scenario is that we progress with playing New Zealand, Fiji, Argentina and South Africa. Those are the scheduled matches. It's very encouraging to see what's happening in New Zealand; the fact that they're playing in front of full crowds is significant. But obviously, the prospect of the four southern hemisphere countries travelling north, we're going to be guided, governed, by Governments in terms of what the regulations are going to be in terms of travel. So that would be our preferred option.

If, for whatever reason, that becomes impossible, again, there are scenarios that the various unions would look at: possibly a second six nations tournament. It would happen before Christmas, so they would take the place of the usual autumn internationals against the southern hemisphere, and we'd play the six nations as per usual, which isn't ideal, because the beauty of the six nations, I think, is the relative scarcity, once a year. But I think that needs must in some cases. That could be the alternative. So that's what we're obviously hoping for. Either of those could be in play.

The other variable, of course, is whether mass gatherings will be allowed in November, and obviously we have to hear the scientific evidence, and that is possibly not that positive at the moment, but I think we're all living in hope in that respect that things will improve over the ensuing few weeks, and things can improve. But, again, it is quite a unique situation, isn't it? Most problems that sport has faced in the past, you can almost say they're time-limited—[Inaudible.]—and you can solve the financial problem or whatever, but there are so many unknowns at play here, it's difficult. So all we can do at the moment is put various scenarios in place and hopefully the best scenario will come to fruition.

I'll come back to John in a minute, but Carwyn, I think you've got another question. We need to unmute Carwyn Jones, please.

I'm unmuted, hopefully. Can you hear me? 

Yes.

A very quick question, Jonathan. Sorry, Jonathan. Obviously the Euros have been postponed to next year. What kind of effect has that had on the FAW?

Interestingly, there are always pros and cons. Similar to Gareth, we're concertina-ing the international calendar, so, the league of nations, which was due to be played in September, October, November, will hopefully still go ahead, and we will play, and play catch-up with some of the matches that we missed in March and April. Going forward, we then have, obviously, warm-up matches in March and then the Euros almost exactly as it is scheduled at the moment. I'll know the finer details, but almost, if you just look at the calendar, it just literally moves back one day, and from what I understand with UEFA, the majority of countries that were going to host last year will be hosting again. So, from what I understand, Azerbaijan and Rome are still very likely; so, Baku and Rome are still very likely to be staged, and we will be back one year later playing Euro 2020 in 2021.

The good news for us is we have a longer lead time. So, if you think about it from a commercial perspective, from a players' perspective, we've had several players that are injured at the moment, so we're hoping that they will come back to play and they'll be fit and ready for the team. But yes, of course, the whole calendar—not just the men's team, but all our intermediate teams, all our women's teams—have been concertina-ed, so there are going to be some problems ahead, clearly, in making sure that those schedules can be realised. If they can be realised in the way that they're planned then we hope to come out of this okay. Yes, of course, as Gareth mentioned, as others mentioned, there is a major financial impact upon us, but we hope that we can resume playing football, and we hope that this country will be back supporting our national teams across all of our sports as soon as possible.

Thank you. So, if I turn back to John Griffiths, then. John.

Diolch. Yes, just a further question for Gareth, really, which is: the Principality Stadium is set aside as a field hospital, Gareth. We're not quite sure, I don't think, how long that will remain the case for. So, are there contingency plans in terms of using other stadia for Wales international matches?

Just to make the statement, I suppose, at the start, that we've been quite proud, really, of the role we've played. I think it's important to say that. Whilst it could cause inconveniences down the track, when you look at the severity of the issue as a nation, then we've been more than happy to do that. At the moment the stadium as a hospital is on standby, as you're probably aware, and obviously our support for that will stand by until the NHS decides otherwise. So, as a result of that, obviously, to go back to your earlier question, the autumn tests, we obviously want those to go ahead, so we've started discussions with, I suppose, the obvious venues in terms of Cardiff City Stadium, the Liberty Stadium and Parc y Scarlets. Those would be the obvious ones to use. So those discussions have started, yes, John.

Thank you very much. I think we're going to have to draw this session to a close now, if Members are content. 

Thank you to the three witnesses very much indeed for your contributions. I think it's been a very informative session for us all. You will, of course, be sent a transcript of the meeting for you to check for its accuracy. And, obviously, if you have emerging evidence, if there are new matters that you feel that the committee needs to know about, do feel free to write to us at any time so that we can make the representations that we need to make to Welsh Government. 

Bye, all three of you. Thank you very much.

If you can let us know when we are in private session then, please, I'd be grateful.