National Assembly for Wales

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Yes, Minister, the target of 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050 is an ambitious one, I think it's fair to say. So, in that context, is the flat-cash budget sufficient to make the progress required, do you think?

Well, I think we're still in an age of austerity and every department has to understand the difficult constraints that we're working under. And the fact that we've got a cash-flat budget when there are other departments that have seen cuts, I think we should probably celebrate that. But I think that the misunderstanding constantly in relation to the Welsh language is that it's just this little pot of money that sits in my department. Actually, the Welsh language has got to be mainstreamed and is being mainstreamed. And if you look at the additional funding, for example, in relation to Welsh language education, there's been an extra £30 million of capital expenditure that's gone into helping Welsh language education. That doesn't appear in this budget, but that is an additional amount of money. 

So, what we're trying to do is to make sure that we build on the strategy that is very clear, I think. There are some very clear steps that we expect to be made in the next few years. We are trying to create the right infrastructure to build towards that 2050 target, but I think one of the key things that we have started on but we need to progress on is how we mainstream the Welsh language across the whole of Government, and that's something that's started. It's clearly started in education. It's the extent to which we can push that further across Government—that's where the big wins are going to be.  

Okay. If we move on to Cymraeg for Kids and the £0.7 million funding for that, are you content that that's a sufficient amount of money to ensure that that project delivers what you expect from it? 

So, language transfer, for me, is one of the key things that we absolutely need to address, and there are some key stages when people decide what language they speak with their children and when they make those decisions, where they send their children to school. So, this is absolutely key for us. What we've done is to give a grant to the Mudiad Meithrin, and what they've done is to target in particular those areas where we expect to see an increase in terms of new Welsh language education systems, especially meithrin. So, how do you develop the demand? And that's been done through working with, for example, midwives, and we've really got to get in at the very ground level.

What we've been keen to do is make sure that we assess how that's going as it goes along. They've had 16,000 conversations with people who've been involved with that project, to understand what it is that makes the difference—what are those key decision-making points at which you determine where you're going to send your child to education and in what language you speak to your child? So, what we've done is we've taken on board those conversations. We've assessed what was said, and we've tried to build that now into the Cymraeg i Blant strategy.

It's not a huge amount of money—it's not insignificant either—but I do think that getting in at the key point as early as you can is what will determine whether we ultimately hit that sending 40 per cent of children to Welsh-language education by 2050.

Okay. So, it's a little early to say much about how those many conversations have translated into the sort of development that you'd like to see, but you're trying to make sure that it is woven into that. Is that fair to say at the moment?  

Yes. We've taken on board what they've said. We've woven it into the programme. You know, rather than wait until everything's finished, we're trying to weave it in as we go along. And the fact that there is still an increased demand for Welsh language education we hope is proving that, actually, something is working here. It's still early days, but I think it's a very constructive approach. But also, you've got to remember the key thing here is that we've got to get in with the parents here. Those are the key people we need to influence, and working with Cymraeg i Blant, for example, to help give Welsh language lessons while they're in a play mode, that has also been something that has been quite constructive and people have responded to.  

Okay. If we move on, Minister, to capital expenditure and the £46 million that's available for 41 projects across 16 authorities, could you tell us a little about progress and the timelines involved? 

So, I think what was great was the incredible response we had from the different local authorities across Wales. I think we're now up to 20 local authorities who'll be receiving money from this capital allocation. We put £30 million on the table. We had £100 million-worth of requests and demands. One of the things that we used whilst determining the criteria for prioritising was: 'How quickly can you spend this money? Are you ready to run?', because, actually, when you've got that kind of demand, you can be a bit picky in terms of who's ready to run. So, already we've had five local authorities who have started to draw down that money. We have had two additional areas, which we had on a backup list, where they didn't seem to be ready at the time when we were determining the allocations. So, Blaenau Gwent and Newport have now been given the go-ahead to develop their projects, and we're waiting for a business case for a school in Pembrokeshire to determine whether they will also be able to access this funding. So, that is already being pulled down, and, as I say, five local authorities have already started pulling that money down. 

Okay. And—

Sorry, John, Mick Antoniw wanted to come in on this. 

Just on that, can you say a little bit more about the nature of some of the projects that have been approved, how it is they're going to contribute. Some of them I think are around the concept of hubs and so on. So, in terms of the criteria around that, just a little bit more on how that will work and what we're seeking to achieve.  

So, every local authority—. These have been absolutely connected to the Welsh in education strategic plans. And so where councils set out 'This is what our plan is', if we could help them along with their progress, then that capital—. What we've tried to link is their ambition with the capital expenditure. So, most of it is—. Most of it's primary education, so—

Can you give an example of some of the specific objectives of these?

So, it was ultimately to create more Welsh-language places in schools—

Well I know, but the nature of how that's being achieved—what sort of projects have you got that are being approved.

Oh, so, Monmouthshire, for example, is having the first Welsh language primary school. That's an example. There's a new school, Welsh language school, for Merthyr and Torfaen. We are expanding provision within the Port Talbot area, and there are new projects where, if people come to the area late, so if they move into the area, particularly in those kind of Welsh-speaking heartlands, in Gwynedd and in Carmarthenshire, for example, we have created centres where you can go in and you can be immersed in Welsh language education. So, those are the kinds of projects where that £30 million has been allocated. 

That's helpful. Thank you. 

Just one more, which I think is quite interesting, is the e-sgol digital programme in Ceredigion. So, that's quite an interesting proposal as well, which is new. We've looked at what they did in Scotland, and I think that's a model that we're looking at that could have implications beyond the Welsh language, because, if you want to do further maths in Ceredigion, you may not have the right teacher who can teach through the medium of Welsh. Some of that now can be done remotely. 

Did you say ESOL or e-school?

E-sgol. E-sgol.

Yes. It's quite interesting. And, again, it's under Kirsty Williams's area. 

If we move on then, Minister, the £150,000 that is available to encourage the take-up of A-level Welsh, could you tell us how that's being distributed and what you would expect its impact to be?

So, one of the reasons why we're keen to do this, is obviously—. One of the things that keeps me awake at night is how on earth are we going to get these Welsh language teachers to meet the demand that we will need in terms of reaching that million. And teachers in secondary schools is one of the areas that we really have had to try and focus on. We've seen a link between the number of people who take A-level Welsh and the number of people who go into teaching through the medium of Welsh. And so we thought, 'Right, let's try and encourage more people to take up A-level Welsh.' Again, this is Kirsty Williams's department, but I can let you know what I know about it. It's about £145,000 that's been allocated over two years.

Some of the way that that money has been distributed—about £50,000 is to create better links between the universities and the schools, to try and increase that connection to make sure that people have an understanding of what the opportunities are and the possibilities are. There's about £20,000 that is being spent to try and target children about 11 to 14 years old—both who are in Welsh-medium education schools and those who are in non-Welsh-medium education schools—to understand the advantages of learning Welsh at A-level and taking Welsh, and providing digital resources but also giving careers advice on how this may be helpful in future. And then there's about £25,000 to communicate why actually taking up the Welsh language as a subject would be a good idea. So, that's more or less how that has been targeted. But what we're hoping is that we'll—I think we have about 230 people taking Welsh A-level at the moment; there's a target to get up to about 320 in the next few years. But that's just the Welsh speakers in Welsh language schools. In terms of the secondaries, even more ambitious—about 216 do Welsh at A-level at the moment, and we're hoping to get that up to about 690. So, that's the really ambitious one.

So, it's pretty modest amounts of money at the moment.

It is. But, at the moment, every little bit counts. And we are—. We've put a lot of resources already into encouraging people to teach Welsh, to go into teaching Welsh. There's an extra £5,000 on the table to encourage people to undertake Welsh language teacher training. So, we're doing what we can, but we have to go the step before that—that's what we're doing here.

Okay.

And just on the A-levels, obviously, there will be change to the Welsh language and the English language set-up. So, you're giving money to promote in both schools. Will that change when the qualifications change?

What I'm keen to do is to make sure we don't lose a generation. So, there's time before the new curriculum comes in, and what we can't do is to lose—. So, that's why this funding is really critical, because it addresses the issue now. Obviously, I think we'll have to address what happens when the new curriculum comes in, and there may be different ways of approaching it at that point. But, at this point, we're trying to address the issue of how do we get people into studying Welsh at A-level now and in the next couple of years.

No, of course. Please.

No, just ask the question; we might not be able to carry—. It's really awkward, because there are a couple of minutes left, so just ask your question, and then we can stop.

Well, no, I don't have a question here—I'm okay.

Oh, sorry, it's David Melding. Okay. David.

Is it best that we pause before—?

Yes. I just feel—. We'll pause, and we'll wait until 10.00.

Minister, I wonder if I could start by focusing on an area where your clear executive responsibilities are not shared with other Ministers, other than in the general approach any Cabinet has to policy making. What have you done to re-establish the clarity of the policy position with the key stakeholders, particularly the new commissioner, given that the Government had indicated it did not think the 2011 Measure was fully fit for purpose, let me put it that way, and then quite abruptly—I don't think I'm being pejorative—then withdrew its intention to table a Welsh language Bill? So, where are we and how are you trying to give that sense of leadership and stability in an area that's been quite febrile, I think it's fair to say?

Well, in terms of the principles of where we were at and what we were trying to do with the Bill, one of the things was that we wanted to move away from it all being about standards to being about encouraging use of the Welsh language. So, that principle still applies. The question for us is to what extent you put all your effort into the Bill, and I think we listened to the stakeholders. You've had your discussions in this group, and you heard from them that, actually, there was a mixture in terms of responses—you know, is this the right way? We decided that it was better for us to focus attention on promoting the use of Welsh, and to stretch our ability and our discussions with the Welsh Language Commissioner in terms of how far could we stretch within the current systems.

So, we've got a new Commissioner, Welsh Language Commissioner. We've had very constructive conversations, whilst absolutely honouring the independence of the commissioner. But I think there's an understanding, actually, that use, language use, is something that he's also keen to see emphasised, and that, when developing standards in future, actually we need to build in what is going to happen in terms of use. So, that's one of the things that we've done. So, talking to the commissioner has been absolutely critical.

We're also obviously getting advice from our cyngor partneriaeth, our partnership council—you know, these are genuine experts who have been helping us every step of the way. I think there was—. The one area that I think people had a few concerns about, in terms of what was missing as a result of us not proceeding with the Bill, is language planning, in particular language planning across Government and whether we have the expertise and whether the drive is there. So, that's something that we're taking very seriously and we're considering seriously and we're taking soundings on that at the moment.

Dyfodol i'r Iaith—you'll be aware that actually they were quite keen to see a new Bill. We've had, again, very constructive discussions with them. I spoke at their conference a few weeks ago. I think they understand that what we're keen to do now is to move ahead, again in terms of the principle that use is what they were interested in. Cymdeithas yr Iaith as well, they were never terribly keen on the Bill, as you'll be aware. And then we've got a group that the officials meet, who advise us in terms of how we promote the use of the Welsh language, and the officials—they've been involved in terms of where we go next. So, I think what we've done is to listen, and I'm fairly confident that we're on the right path.

So, the current architecture in terms of the legal position then, and the Measure, that's what you're going to work with, but with an emphasis much more strongly on use. But, the current architecture is going to be the structure.

Yes.

You know, I must say, I much prefer a Government changing its mind in response to a very full consultation, and, obviously, we did a lot of work as well, so I think that's a perfectly reasonable position and one that I respect. I suppose one of the things that did, in this period, come up was how effective promotional work could be undertaken, because in the previous days of the Welsh Language Board it was very much a prime purpose of it. With the shift to standards and the commissioner, it still had a function, or at least a power, but there obviously was a shift with most day-to-day promotional work and the budget for it being with Welsh Government. So, where are we with that side of it? Do you envisage a rebalancing of that relationship, so it shifts back to the commissioner not just being the regulator, or at least not overwhelmingly being a regulator? Or, will it remain more or less where it is at the moment, in Government and then presumably with your partners as you commission them?

So, what's important for me is that actually the public knows where responsibility lies and whose responsibility it is to do what. I'm trying to make sure that we have absolute clarity on that. So, one of the things we've done is that we're just about to conclude a memorandum of understanding with the commissioner in terms of who is responsible for what, because actually, sometimes, it is a little bit confusing. So, for example, business—small business. We're in charge of promoting small business; it's the commissioner who is in charge of supermarkets and banks and things. So, that's quite confusing. What I want is absolute clarity.

When we have our new phone line, the key thing for me is that, actually, the architecture for the public shouldn't matter. The plumbing is something we should look after. One of the things that I'm keen to do is that when people phone up and say, 'I have a complaint,' that it is sent exactly to the right person and that there's no confusion about who is responsible for what. So, that list will be coming out in the next few weeks. We had a meeting this week just to kind of finalise that document in terms of who is responsible for what, and I think that's really important. I don't think we've had that absolute clarity in the past in the way that perhaps we will be setting it out in an annex to the memorandum of understanding.

We of course continue to be responsible for a lot of the promotional work around the Welsh language, but what we do is we pass it on straight out of Government to things like the mentrau iaith, because I think, actually, the place where the impact is is if you can put it out on the ground. So, the more we can send it out to communities close to the people, the better, and that's what we've done with the mentrau iaith, and you've seen what we've done with the business line, for example, we've set up now. We've got 12 people going and promoting the Welsh language in terms of business in the communities. That's where I want the action to be is in the communities.

As a result of the memo of understanding, where some functions shift to the commissioner, will there be a clear indication of the budgetary consequences of that, and the funds following?

The budget will remain the same, as it is at the moment. What we're doing is providing absolute clarity in terms of—. What we will be able to do, because I think it's important that this is not necessarily something that is fixed in stone for the future, which is why I've asked it to be provided in an annex—we can adapt the annex, possibly, as we go along, if we find that the function would be better placed somewhere else. So, I do think that we perhaps need to make sure that there is a degree of flexibility, but the internal plumbing work is something I think that has to be sorted.

So, these are reasonably minor adjustments, I think it's fair to say.

Yes.

I'll move to progress with 'Cymraeg 2050' and the work programme, which I think, from our point of view, usefully has quite clear targets, and I just wonder if you could indicate how confident you are that we are progressing towards them for 2021—an increase to 24 per cent of seven-year-olds in Welsh-medium education, 40 more meithrin groups and then targets for the increase in the number of teachers who can teach in Welsh, both at primary and secondary. Could you give us a progress report on that and an indication of your confidence that those targets are likely to be achieved?

I think we are on course for most of them. So, the early years in particular, we've got the meithrin schools. So, we've got a plan to open 40; we've opened 12 so far, so we're on course in terms of that provision. We have moved in terms of the Welsh in education strategic plans from responding to demand to creating demand. That £30 million of additional capital funding has helped with that, so we know now that there'll be an extra 2,900 or so places directly as a result of that, so that helps us towards that target. We've given this additional funding as well to Llangrannog, for example, and Glan-llyn, and I think that's really important in terms of it being—you know, Welsh has got to be fun and it's got to be social and it's got to be something that is used in an informal setting.

I think the area that I have most concern about is whether we can recruit enough secondary Welsh language teachers. We are pulling out all the stops. If you've got any ideas on what more we can do then please let us know. I think we're on course for the primary—I think we're confident on that. In terms of business, we have these 14—14 rather than 12, sorry—business advisers. So, that's something new that's happened in terms of use.

And I think we're probably on the right track. Now, we won't know until we have the results of the census, but what we do have is the annual population survey, and that gives us confidence that we're heading in the right direction. If you look at those results, there are about 896,000 people who say they speak Welsh already. We don't use that as our standard, but it gives us a little bit of confidence that we are heading in the right direction. The difficulty for us, then, is how we raise people's confidence to say, 'Actually, yes, I am a Welsh speaker'? That's a fairly fundamental problem for us.

It's encouraging to hear that you think you're on track to meet the target for primary school teachers who can teach through the medium of Welsh. If I look at secondary school teachers, I think, in fairness to the Government, you set quite an ambitious target to increase by 400 to 2,200. But if that's proving challenging, how are schemes like the Welsh language sabbatical scheme operating? Is that fully onstream now or what sort of numbers are availing of that? I know this is more education, but presumably you're closely informed and briefed about all of this. How effective is that appearing as a programme? Because it creates quite a lot of pressure. It's not just the person who goes for the training; you then need someone in to take their place in the classroom.

So, it's not a cheap scheme, the sabbatical, the one that's an annual scheme—. So, there are lots of different sabbatical schemes, so it's not necessarily a whole year for all of them. Some of them need a kind of big confidence boost and you can take them out for a few months and that will do the trick, but what we have done is to respond to the fact that, in the past, people loved that but then they needed to keep it up, so we've tried to respond to that ongoing need. I've actually visited the sabbatical scheme for teachers who have undertaken it for a year—absolutely incredible the progress that people have made. The problem is the numbers are actually quite small and the cost is not insignificant. So, we will be assessing that, and we will have to, I think, take a breath at that point and just see, 'Right. Is this the right thing for the resources?' But this will be a call for the Minister for Education, of course.

I should say, Chair, we saw some interesting evidence when we went to the Basque country about how they operated these schemes, and it did take quite a lot of determination. The results are good, but it's not an easy programme, I think it's resource intensive, obviously, with the need for supply teachers to fill in gaps and that whilst it's operational.

My final question is just—. I'm not being mean in saying that the Welsh Government got into a bit of a mess when it announced the new curriculum and then it suddenly appeared that there was a big shift in how we were going to fund nursery placements in particular, in ensuring or insisting that English is on the curriculum, and then for the Welsh language strategy, that's a huge issue because of the importance of nursery education through the medium of Welsh. And, at the very least, it caused disquiet in the community, so have we set things straight as far as all that is concerned, and have you learnt any lessons about how you have to co-operate with the education Minister? Again, I mean, this area is cross-cutting and it clearly involves other colleagues. I know the pace of life and what happens, it's quite a speed, and all of a sudden you can have a bit of a hiatus, but I mean, it wasn't helpful, I don't think. I would think it's fair to say that.

Well, I hope that the community has been reassured that there will be no need to be teaching English in Welsh language schools or nurseries, because of the immersion approach up until key stage 2. There's an understanding that immersion is a tried and tested technique that is actually something that should be respected. So, yes, I think people have now been reassured that that is something that will not happen.

Thank you. Diolch yn fawr.

I would simply add that we've put a lot of effort over the past couple of years into embedding the Welsh language standards into the organisation. It's been a big focus of activity. We internally now, within the Welsh Government, comply fully with the requirements, and we have, as the Minister said, different processes for monitoring that, both within the Welsh language unit and colleagues on the legislative side, so that there is a sort of separation in how we examine compliance with the standards internally. Would you like me to say a bit more about what we do inside the Welsh Government?

Actually, my other questions would be for you, and they would cover that, so yes, we will definitely get to that. Could you please tell me how you would characterise the civil service's vision for Welsh within the civil service?

The vision for Welsh within the civil service flows very directly from the Government's 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy. I think when—. Shall I say how it looks to me across the whole organisation? 

Yes, you're welcome to answer however you like.

I arrived here two and a half years ago, fresh to working in Wales, and I was obviously very much aware of the political commitment—the very strong political commitment—to promoting the use of Welsh, and I was really pleased to see, when I arrived, that there is a genuine culture within the organisation of pride in the Welsh language as an asset for Wales and something that helps make us very distinctively different. I think that is a very strong culture that's there. I hear Welsh very commonly in all of our offices that I go to, including Cardiff, and there are—. As I said, the standards are fully embedded. That was a big milestone for us. We all have—. I can see that there are others in the room wearing these. We have our lanyards, which set out very clearly if we're a Welsh learner or speaker. That's one of the things that helps build up confidence. So, the vision for the organisation is to be an examplar, as set out in the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy. I think we have a very good foundation already, and I'm in the process of drawing up a forward-looking strategy that will make sure that by 2050 we meet the terms of the Government's 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy. But I think there is a very good starting point.

Thank you. In terms of looking at setting up the principles of a bilingual workplace, I understand that a working group was set up by the previous Permanent Secretary in 2016 and that a working plan was prepared with recommendations in March 2017. We're now more than two years after that and those plans haven't been put into practice. Do you regret that delay?

That report was completed about a month after I arrived in the job. So, as I'm sure you can imagine, I felt I needed to take some time to reflect on it and to get to understand the organisation and reach my own views on how best to take forward our commitments under the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy. So, I have spent time doing that and talking to people about good practice.

Over that period, we did what I would think of as putting the building blocks in place—so, embedding the standards throughout the whole of the organisation, which really did raise awareness, I think, and get people to understand that we are genuinely committed to this. And also I looked very carefully at what we provide by way of training across the organisation, because we obviously need a range of training to suit different levels and different learning styles. So, the task and finish group that was set up by my predecessor didn't really have a very clear goal and, of course, later that year, in the summer, 'Cymraeg 2050' did set out a very clear goal for us and commits us to leading by example, which I take as the vision now for what we're trying to achieve in the Welsh Government. 

We've been doing a number of things, as I said, focusing on embedding the standards, and we set that out in the annual report as to the progress we've been making over the course of the year. I appointed a Welsh language champion on the board of the Welsh Government last year. I felt that was important, that somebody should be thinking constantly about the interests of the Welsh language. We've been doing an awful lot on the training side. The Welsh Language Commissioner gave a presentation to the board of the Welsh Government in May this year, and at that same meeting, the board discussed a follow-up paper that took the original task and finish report that you referred to and updated it with a lot more information about best practice and looking at the learning offer. It drew on best practice from a wide variety of organisations, including the Assembly, but some others as well. And I, in fact, met Carl Foulkes, the chief constable for north Wales, myself on a recent visit to talk to him about how they've so successfully approached the use of the Welsh language.

What we're doing next is I have a team looking at a draft strategy and milestones based on that best practice, and taking account of the assurance that I've now been given about the quality and range of the training that we have in the Welsh Government. This will be a strategy with milestones leading us to 2050, with a five-year review process, because I think that's probably about the right time to measure progress. So, when I launch the strategy, it will be accompanied by a five-year work programme setting out exactly what we're going to be doing over the next five years. The immediate next steps: I've got what I call a challenge session next week, which will talk about how to draw up that strategy and the programme, what the issues are, what the practicalities are, how best to take it forward, and to identify the work streams that need to be done in detail.

This is going to be an important and long-lasting strategy, so I really do want to get it right. We are co-producing it with the trade union side of the Welsh Government. That is obviously incredibly important, to make sure that we have buy-in right from the start. The Welsh Government board is going to discuss the strategy on 13 September, and they will advise us on how effective they think it looks and then I would aim, by the middle of October at the latest, to finalise a draft strategy, the milestones towards 2050 and a five-year work programme, so then I can submit that to the First Minister and to this Minister, and then I'll be able to hold formal consultations with the trade union side and, by mid-November at the absolute latest, we can agree formally the strategy and announce it to staff. That is in line with what was set out in the Cymraeg 2050 action plan for 2019-20, which says that 

'We will introduce recommendations to senior Welsh Government officials with the aim of agreeing upon an internal use policy to promote and facilitate the use of Welsh within the workforce. We will prepare an action plan for the policy and will begin to implement it in 2019-2020.'

So, we will be meeting that commitment. I'm conscious it has been quite a time since the first report. I really do believe that a great deal of work has been going on over that period to put in place the right building blocks so that, when the strategy's launched, I can be confident that it really will take off and that it will be based on a really effective range of learning and development provision. So, I think I'm confident we're going to meet that commitment. Just one thing I think I need to be very clear about: the new strategy doesn't mean that people will not get a job in the Welsh Government if they don't already speak Welsh, and it also doesn't mean that complete change is going to happen overnight. This will be a thorough and gradual process. I want it to be rigorous, with enough time and opportunities for people to learn Welsh. Overall, my aim is to generate enthusiasm and real opportunities for everybody to learn Welsh rather than to generate anxiety and any sense of exclusion. So, it's a lot of work in progress, building on, I think, a really strong culture of pride in the language across the organisation, and some excellent work over the last few years in getting all the building blocks in place.

Thank you. That was very comprehensive. But if I could just return for a minute to the delay, is it usual for there to be such a long delay on implementing the recommendations of a working group in the civil service?

The recommendations themselves didn't seem to me to take full account of what was happening in other organisations, which is why I asked for follow-up work to be done. I think it was a good starting point—

Sorry to interrupt you, but just comparing it with the timeline that is usual for implementing recommendations, does it stand out as a particularly long delay?

The point I was trying to make was that, although the second report came out later, in between there was a lot of follow-up to the first report, in terms of examining the training provision and embedding the standards. So you could see it as a long delay in formal terms, but in practical terms, I believe very strongly that we were taking action throughout that period to follow up the recommendations in that report.

Okay. Thank you. You mentioned a draft strategy that you're working on at the moment. Could you remind me what the timeline is for when that's going to be published?

Yes. The timeline starts with a formal session next week where I will pull together—

The challenge session. 

The challenge session. Then 13 September is the Welsh Government board discussion on progress in developing that strategy and the milestones, and that's a follow-up to the meeting that we had in May with the updated report. Then, middle of October I'd expect to be able to finalise a strategy, as I said, in co-production with the trade union side, and present it to the First Minister and the Minister for the Welsh language. I'll have to hold formal consultations, obviously, with the trade union side, and aim that, by mid November at the latest, the executive committee of the Welsh Government can agree that strategy as well as the milestones and a five-year work programme. So it's quite a wide-ranging strategy and work programme together.

Thank you. Would we as a committee be able to see a draft of it?

I think it will be an internal document during the process of co-production, particularly because I frankly wouldn't want to pre-empt any concerns or issues that the trade union side might have. So, during the process of development, it will, like other similar policy documents, be an internal document. But once we've agreed it, then it will become very public, because I shall give it a great deal of publicity within the Welsh Government at least.

Glad to hear it. Thank you very much.

We've made a commitment to increasing the number of documents that are laid in Welsh in the National Assembly, in order to be able to provide more opportunities for Members to work bilingually. How we're going to take that forward is by gradually increasing the number of explanatory memorandums for statutory instruments that we lay. Obviously, all explanatory memorandums for Bills are laid in Welsh as well. So, we will be increasing the scope for debate and preparation and scrutiny in Welsh. That's very much in line with 'Cymraeg 2050', obviously.

We do, of course, have a limited translation resource, so we will have to prioritise how we do that. We're planning from September to prioritise using three tests: the extent to which the statutory instrument would have a very wide-ranging and direct effect on the population—that would prioritise it—the subject matter—obviously different subjects will be of different interest—and thirdly, and I think very importantly, the expectations of the audience. So, that is how we will approach prioritisation of the number of explanatory memorandums for statutory instruments. 

Before you go on, it sounds to me that you start from the point of it being in English and translated. When you're going to be producing the strategy, are you going to be starting at the point at which some of these things will be in Welsh first and then translated to English, so that you won't potentially have the problem then of it not being in Welsh in the first instance?   

I agree, and Dylan and his team are already piloting that approach to drawing up legislation. So, we are indeed following that. 

If I can just finish off with a recognition that last year our annual accounts were laid in English first at the Assembly, for which I apologise very sincerely. That, I'm afraid, was a complete misunderstanding about how the process would work. I've given the Public Accounts Committee and give you as well, obviously, my absolute assurance that that won't happen again, and that this year the English and Welsh accounts will be laid at the same time.  

Thanks. Well, most of the points I wanted to ask have been very, very comprehensively answered already, so there are only just a few points by way of clarification. In terms of reporting compliance with the standards that the Government carries out, there are obviously over the course of that period of time a number of complaints that come in about non-compliance and so on. And I think the number of these was identified as around about 27 or so directly from members of the public. I'm just wondering what the relationship is between yourselves and the language commissioner over the handling of those—perhaps if you give an example of what the nature of some of those complaints from the public have been and how they've actually been resolved and how you've engaged with the language commissioner to ensure that there's a commonality of dealing with these.

Thank you. As you said, we publish an annual report on our compliance with Welsh language standards, and, in that report, we're required to record the number of complaints received every year in relation to the Welsh language. We differentiate between complaints received directly by members of the public and those that we receive through the commissioner's office, because there's a difference in the process, in the procedure, in how we deal with the different kinds of complaints. So, we treat complaints from members of the public to us about Welsh language standards, or about treating the Welsh language less favourably than English, under our own internal organisational complaints procedure. And I looked at the statistics and, during 2017-18, we dealt with all complaints received from members of the public under the first stage of that process, and that means that we have to examine the nature of the complaint and respond within 10 working days. And, in fact, of the 14 complaints that we received directly in that way, none of them needed to be escalated to the Welsh Language Commissioner's office nor indeed to stage 2, the more detailed stage of our own process. 

We would normally maintain these as matters for the Welsh Government, but I've got details of all the complaints that have been received from the public during 2017-18, and we'd be very happy to share those in written correspondence with committee members, if that would be helpful. And, obviously, we liaise very closely with the language commissioner and his office, and will continue to do so. 

I think that would be helpful. It's interesting to have an understanding as to how members of the public are responding. And I think the point that's come up in some of the evidence sessions here is that we understand, when you're resolving them internally et cetera, the extent then to which the language commissioner has an understanding of what's happening, so he actually would be aware of them, even though he wouldn't be engaged within that process, because a lot of this is about mutual confidence, mutual understanding of what is actually happening, and how we learn from practice and so on. 

I'm very keen, as part of our Welsh language strategy, to strengthen relationships with the language commissioner. The language commissioner has already come to make a presentation to the board of the Welsh Government, which I chair, which is an advisory board. I've invited him to come to talk to our senior leaders group, which is all the top officials of the organisation, at director level and above, to talk precisely about these kinds of issues, the importance of the standards, and the importance of working closely with the commissioner himself. 

Thank you. 

In the evidence that you've provided, you've said that there are two officers who work in the legislation department. Could you confirm if their only work is to prepare standards, please? Sorry, I'm not sure who would—.

Diolch yn fawr. 

David Melding. 

It's a plea, really, but as you're here, I may as well get my enthusiasms out and direct them towards you. In terms of the business sector, there's an awful lot of potential for some innovative promotional work, it seems to me, especially from the SMEs right down to the sole trader level—encouraging meet-and-greet schemes so that shopkeepers can use some Welsh signage. In my experience, it tends to be there very often in the heartland areas—it's in Cardiff's arcades and around Cowbridge and Penarth. I'm now referring to key areas in my region, but there are many other examples. In my experience, visitors love it, they want to go and hear the language that King Arthur spoke. They want to see it up there. Translation of menus, I think, is a great example. It can seem trivial when you first hear it, but it isn't; it's core to our cultural offer and what makes us the most distinctive place in Britain. I do think that we could do a lot more there. It advances towards those greater goals that we want in just thoroughly normalising us as a bilingual society. Anyway, comment, please. [Laughter.]

I'm with you all the way, David. That's exactly what these 14 officers do, and they're not just in west Wales; they're all over Wales. So, we do have officers in Cardiff and Merthyr and other places, so this is not something absolutely right. Obviously, you'd expect us to do that in some of our tourism areas, but this is not just about people coming from the outside; this is about normalising it for all of us. I think the other thing that we're really anxious to underline is actually this is good for their bottom line. Customers love it. The research that we've had back is that actually customers love it. So, if that's the response, the more we can evidence that, the more likely they are to take up the opportunities.

It ought to be part of our general marketing strategy to the world, from business attracting investors to high-level tourists that really enjoy cultural tourism.

I need a bit more volume in this actually—.

It's much better, thank you very much.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to do that. I will speak, in English, sadly, if I may. I'm still dysgu Cymraeg, but very much dysgu Cymraeg.

I think you've had the short paper that I prepared, which I had to do in something of a rush, actually, so I wouldn't say that it's comprehensive. It's a very personal appreciation of what I actually saw. The background to the report, as one of your colleagues will know very well, actually, started in 2013 with the then Minister, Huw Lewis, and it was a much more radical proposition than any of the other three UK countries had put forward. So, I was very glad to do it. What was significant about it, of course, was that it saw poverty and culture as being interrelated—access to one meaning a part of working towards a solution for the other. That hadn't been done before in that way. So, it was a privilege to do it.

I think the report speaks for itself, but what I was impressed with—and John Griffiths was Minister at that time—was the way that the report was taken up entirely and implemented from top to bottom. That was rare. There are many reports that I have been involved with over the years, some of which have seen some light of some days, as it were—but not to be treated as a strategic part of Government thinking and Government policy, and to involve every type of agency in Wales, from the voluntary sector, to local authorities to the national Government. So, I was deeply impressed by that.

What I think has happened, actually, has been enormously to the credit of everyone that was involved. What I said in the report, which I think has been proved, is that I spoke to the best ambitions of what people wanted to do. It's quite clear from the different sorts of evaluations and data-gathering exercises that have come forward, that people were absolutely ready for this and have tried to make the most of it under the constraints in which they operate.

So, the sorts of evidence that we've had from the second evaluation report on the Fusion partnerships, for example, were very clear that they were able—. They were given licence and a framework and a reporting structure to actually work with people who were doing much of the same things, with the same audiences, but had never had previous connections with them. So, what has come out, for example, in those evaluations for me most strongly is the effective partnerships that have been created—the more effective partnerships; the better ways of working; the deeper and wider reach into the communities, with the harder-to-reach families and children, particularly.

One line from one witness, particularly, struck home: local authorities have also realised that there are better ways, more innovative ways, of working. It's a very steep learning curve, of course, but that has been, for me, the most visible and positive outcome in the 10 projects. They have all done slightly different things, as they would, because it's very much a local community project.

My general thought about what might be done next, if I can go on to say that, if you would want me to do that—or, would you like me to wait for questions for that?  

Yes, we'll go into questions now. I just wanted to have an overview of your perception and then we will probe further, if that's okay.

Right. Sure. My perception is, actually, that people are doing their best with the resources available but that there are lots of other things that they might be able to do with longer timescales, for example, and more sustainable and clearer funding, and more extensive partnerships. I think that there are disconnects between what the culture board is doing, the information that's coming from the projects into Welsh Government, and the evaluations themselves, which I have spelled out in this paper and that are actually inhibiting both our understanding of what can be achieved and are frustrating some of the programmes themselves. So, I do think, actually, that there is something to be addressed there.

We'll come to that in questions.

Sure. Absolutely. But, overall, I think that I am very well pleased that this is something that set a national standard for the UK, especially the focus on place, which has been replicated, for example, by the DCMS in the Great Place Scheme and that we picked up in the Heritage Lottery Fund. It's shown and articulated that culture is a shared objective, and should be a shared objective, as well as a shared tool for social justice and economic prosperity. So I think there's lots more that now can be done, but I think, on balance, I've been well pleased.

Okay. Thank you very much. Just one initial question from me: obviously, we've had some concern from I think it was Allan Herbert from the South Riverside Community Development Centre, that he felt that the Welsh Government had focused too much on employment and had actually done a disservice to your report—his words, not mine. How do you feel about that? Do you think there's been too much focus on employment criteria, or is that something laudable?

Well, as I said in my paper to you, I could see exactly why those objectives were chosen at the time, because they were the frameworks that were in operation in Communities First areas. Given Wales's priorities, I would never diminish the importance of trying always to get people skilled up and into jobs. 

I think the time has come, and talking to some of the officials involved now and some of the people involved in evaluation, there is a genuine move to want to revisit those objectives, and it is timely, because of the end of the Communities First programmes, which I'm sad about, in a way, because I thought they were very, very useful and effective frameworks in some ways. It is time to revisit, so that we don't just collect a picture at the end of the year. We need to know, actually, what is the impact on people's lives, what's changed because they have been involved in Fusion, and that is very difficult to do, but it is really the thing that is worth doing. And my impression, talking to people, is that they are aware of that, that there needs to be more flexibility and a more dynamic approach than this notion of doing research with theory of change presumptions in it and methodologies.

Okay. That's interesting. Thank you. John Griffiths.

Okay. Kay, I wonder if you might say a little bit more about that process of change, then, that might take place to move on to the more rounded picture, as we move forward and, hopefully, take forward all the recommendations made in the original report. Would you see that through a process of co-production that, perhaps, moves beyond the collaborative approach?

Well, I think there are two issues there, John. I think the issue of co-production, and I would add in co-funding, is very much something I would like to see in the next phase, because while you've had some shared programmes, for example on family learning or Sure Start, as we call it, and the pupil deprivation grant has been used in very interesting ways and certainly very appropriate ways to co-fund and shape some of the activities that have happened, I think we haven't actually followed through the logic of that. Ultimately—and I didn't probably say it clearly enough—I thought the unique feature of this programme would be for departments to share their funding. So, some of the social policy and social action funding, to be able to actually directly fund some of the programmes in strategic ways. 

Now, coming on to how you measure change, how you reflect it both in the information you gather, say, as a co-ordinator, and how you interpret it if you're an evaluator, the first thing is you have to acknowledge the timescales are different for different sorts of outcomes and different sorts of projects, and be very sophisticated about that, actually. So, we can't expect to see direct causal relationships in education, for example, around motivation, which would manifest itself, possibly, as better attendance in the classroom and, eventually, possibly a wider choice of GCSEs and possibly better grades at GCSE. So we have to know exactly what it is, within the parameters, we could expect at best. So that has to be built into the evaluation programme from the beginning. That hasn't been done yet, for fairly obvious reasons. 

Health outcomes sometimes, with older people, are easier to spot, because you can see, for example, fewer attendances at accident and emergency departments or the GP surgery, for whatever reason—it may be for mental health reasons, or whatever. One of the parallels I could recommend, actually, is when we did the New Deal for Communities work in England, and I was Minister for communities then, we did massive evaluations on these sorts of outcomes, but they had been built in from the start and we were looking over a wide range of social indicators, including crime and justice, education, health and so on. And we were very aware of the variable timescales there. So, timescale and sophistication are important.

Now, when I read the arts council evidence, I can see that they are trying hard to actually find a methodology for mapping change, and some of it is bound to be anecdote. It's what people tell you they feel and what they feel now they can do that they couldn't do; where they can go, where they couldn't go. Some of it can be quantified, actually, but I think there are new methodologies coming out. And museum attendance, which can also be used, and I think the arts council referenced that as well. And then the Warwick commission also had something to say about it. So, yes, we can do it, but we will have to sit down around a table—all the people who are likely to be involved in doing it—and share knowledge of what we know is working already. But it certainly can.

Yes. And just to follow up briefly, you think that the National Museum Wales, in its development of St Fagans, provides some good examples of—

Very much so, and that takes me back to the co-production argument. It hasn't just been St Fagans, of course, although that's been rewarded in such an exemplary fashion. It's so wonderful for Wales to have that accolade for the ways in which the whole museum has embraced that methodology of—not methodology, it's a principle, it's a vision of involving people.

But, yes, that sort of influence that comes from people who might not otherwise ever be asked about why they don't go to museums, what they would like to see, what it is that excites them, what they can bring. We saw a bit of it when we co-produced, with the Wallich charity, a collection of paintings that people involved chose. That was incredibly powerful because we saw then, for the first time, people who actually wrote a description of what the painting meant to them, giving the power to choose that painting and to describe it and have it hang in their name was a very, very powerful thing, and I think that's an exemplary project. Every museum can do that sort of thing; they don't, but they could.

Diolch, John. Delyth Jewell.

It's fantastic to have you here giving this evidence. Thank you. You've referenced this point that I'm about to raise in the evidence that you've given us about the difficulty in measuring intangible outcomes in Fusion. I think I know what your answer to this is going to be, but do you think that Fusion, as it is, is driven too much by measuring tangible outcomes?

Well, I think it's inevitable, actually, in the state of the art, as we have it. I had a look at some of the co-ordinators' reports to the cultural inclusion board, and they do their best to give a real flavour of what the projects are actually doing. And the case studies that they've produced, which aren't published, actually, are also really very interesting because they do write the story of the experience of maybe one person or maybe a group of people. And in that, of course, there is a whole narrative of emotional change, confidence, trusting, people respecting you for doing whatever you've chosen to do. One of my arguments, Delyth—may I?

Yes, of course.

One of my arguments is to say that I think we should be less inhibited about releasing that sort of story, that sort of—anonymised, yes. But I think the stuff that goes to the Welsh Government, the operational team, is really, really interesting, and having access to more of that, whether it's some of the data itself or whether it's some of the stories—and I think it's the stories that go to the CIB, in fact—would be really, really good. I'm not sure, quite, why there would be a problem with that.

Because you said in your evidence that—you're talking now about narrative, and it's the same point that you'd made about that it's measuring the journey rather than a snapshot, and I think that's the—

Absolutely. You can't tell anything from an infographic. I mean, it's a useful map—

But context is everything.

Context is everything because some of these people—. For example, Newport Fusion project has done a fantastic piece of work putting Moby Dick on the transporter bridge, which is in itself, actually, quite a challenge if you know the transporter bridge as I do. The people coming out of that very mixed community that is served by Fusion—and it's a very diverse community down there, actually—for the first time, actually, would have had the experience not just of hearing their voice and performing, but doing some of the electrics, the stage craft or whatever it is. Now, if you had asked them before they did it could they do it, they wouldn't have known, but they were willing to give it a go. But knowing that they can do it and that everybody sees that for what it is—it's like the people who were hanging their paintings in the Wallace collection. We use the term 'transformational' far too often, but it does change people's perceptions of their self-worth, their dignity and their relationships with the rest of the community. It is really hard to actually capture that other than through the personal story. Let's not devalue the effect and the power of the story.

I agree with you entirely on that. Do you think, then, that there would be any specific steps that should be taken to communicate those stories, particularly with Fusion? You've spoken about the need to maybe look at whether those stories can be published, is there anything else that you think needs to be done more holistically?

Yes, maybe, Chair, this is a time when I should say something about what I think might be useful, actually, for the next stage, as it were, because it directly bears on what Delyth is saying here. It's five years since I did that report, actually, and I haven't been surveying, with any intensity, what's been going on; I've had other things to do since then. But, I'm really well aware that, after five years, most things need—you need to look at things. And I would like to see—and I don't know whether you'd agree with me, John—five years on, we need a review, actually, of the whole project, and to be asking, 'What is really working?'

We have a mass of information. The stuff that goes into the CIB from the national institutions, for example, against the objectives, or from the co-ordinators against the objectives, is pretty dense, and there are 33 recommendations, of which, yes, many have been implemented, but were they implemented in such a way that they have carried the effect that I intended? I don't know, because I can't tell, from reading, the way they've been reported. I would like somebody, for example, to take a five-year long look at that and ask the exam question: has it done what those recommendations were really asking for? I think it's done it on a local level, I think that's where the stories are generating and that's where the information is being generated that we can rely on. I think strategically at national level, it's less so. And I can develop that, if you want, in due course.

Okay, diolch.

Thank you, that's very useful, as a kick-start to that type of discussion, and we'll go on to talk about collaboration and Fusion—David Melding, Assembly Member.

Yes. Baroness Andrews, one area that seems to have worked very well is the operation of the Fusion co-ordinators, and I think you referred to Communities First and the fact that it's been wound down. It seems to have been quite an apposite time because it has allowed quite a lot of work, perhaps, that would've been done through Communities First, to be done. But I think we've all visited a Fusion co-ordinator—

I didn't realise that.

—and been really impressed by the work.

Some former Members of the committee. We have changed since, but every Member at the time did, yes.

Excellent.

So, is that your view, in terms of the recommendations of your report, that a key driver has been the work of the Fusion co-ordinators?

Absolutely. Totally. I've found, in all the work I've done across my rather bizarre career, when I have worked with communities and certainly when I worked in education and the voluntary sector, the crucial thing is leadership on the ground and the co-ordinators who are specifically charged with making things happen. With the best will in the world, you can have four or five fantastic people in different agencies, but they're all having to look after their own patch. The whole point of the co-ordinator is to facilitate, is to be the ambassador, is to go and make the argument, is to knock some heads together occasionally, is to introduce people to each other. And there was no way that it was going to happen without a strong leader, co-ordinator, in each of those projects.

It was perfectly obvious, when I was having those conversations—. And what was unique about the conversations in the course of the report—and there were lots of them—was that people, like, for example, the archaeology societies, the local authorities, the arts groups, the community residents associations and the housing associations, were all doing the same sort of thing with the same communities, but none of them had ever had a conversation together. So, we found around the table—. We had the most wonderful seminars, with people saying, 'Yes, but when we tried that, he didn't want to co-operate'. So, having the co-ordinator is absolutely fundamental. Sustaining the co-ordinator, giving the co-ordinator clear sets of responsibilities and a clear understanding about their relationships—it's absolutely crucial. I don't know that I've ever seen a job description for a co-ordinator, but I know what I think it ought to contain.

We do seem to have a proof of concept, though, in terms of the activities they've been doing. Would that draw you to—if we were to have a formal review of your report—the need to formalise a network of co-ordinators? Because at the minute there's no guarantee, their funding is very precarious—this was repeatedly made to us, this point. I was struck by how little they cost us for what we seem to be getting from the programme—

It's the cheapest programme you could possibly have.

But would you prioritise that—a modest guaranteed funding stream to facilitate a network?

Yes, I would. I think I would do it with a few caveats and a few aspirations as well. I think the caveat is that one has to be careful, when one formalises anything that works informally, not to drive out some of the spirit, because people like autonomy and they like to be creative, and sometimes, actually, when you formalise, you start adding in incentive points for career structures or whatever. You've got to be very careful. I wouldn't say that muddling through—. It always works—[Inaudible.]—working on Brexit. But I think, basically, actually, it needs some sort of formal structure and sustainable funding. Sustainable funding is the key. Predictable three-to-five-year funding, actually, would make all the difference. It would give people a real stake and a terrier-like ability to keep on chasing people who were being recalcitrant or whatever.

My aspirations would be—. I always saw the Fusion projects as a big learning team together, and I don't know whether that learning has been facilitative. They're all so busy, they're all doing the firefighting on a day-to-day basis. I would love to see a fellowship of Fusion projects and co-ordinators, where they really had a clear remit to share best practice. I don't know whether—. All their reports go into the CIB, and I may be wrong about this, because I'm ignorant about it, but I'm not sure, actually, that they are able to cross-fertilise. But that seems to me to be crucial.

That's very helpful. I think, when most people have looked at Fusion, or have heard about it, they've tended to hear about organisations like the national museum or big regional bodies and how they have stepped up their work, then, in terms of connecting with communities. And, of course, co-ordinators have been key in this. That seems to have been successful, but another aspect of your report is that community organisations need to be embedded in that work. I have to say, when we've had evidence from organisations who are deeply rooted in their communities, they're very passionate, and they remind us that we all do culture—to be human is to be cultural—and that we sometimes do not place the emphasis that we should on community culture and what they're doing. I think one of your examples there of the exhibition and the things that get drawn out, because people naturally want this expression—. So, do you think Fusion has connected enough to community organisations, or is that an area that we should be looking at to improve?

Well, I think it's laid the foundations, definitely, but there will be community organisations that are still a bit shy, or maybe not well-informed enough about what they might get out of it, and some of them are very fragile, of course. I think we've got an enormous gift in Wales in our housing associations, because they are much more creative. And I was thrilled—. I spent some time up in Rhondda Cynon Taf with their housing association, and the Merthyr housing associations as well, and I'm really, really impressed by the dimension of the work and their close relationship with the people they serve. I think they're one of the things that would be important to review, I think—what other sort of organisations in the community could benefit from this better menu, or these wider horizons?

For example, the National Trust is a large and powerful and rich organisation in Wales. It could do more at a local level, I think, to be identifying the local historic environment and why it’s important, for example. It could actually play a bigger role, I think, in our communities. I think, to an extent, actually, Cadw could, although Cadw is very strapped for cash and so on and so forth. These are small organisations—our civic organisations in Wales aren’t large—but there are civic societies in Wales as well that maybe actually—. And it’s ironic, isn’t it? We’re all complaining that the voluntary sector is getting older and that young people are not coming forward, but these are the potential successors, actually, in their communities. I think there are lots of educational organisations that do things like reading with children. It’s a question about mapping. We are incredibly rich in Wales with voluntary organisations. That’s another thing: I don’t think anyone has had the scope to stand back and say, 'Well, what are we missing out on?'

You've answered some of the points that I really wanted to ask about, but I'll just come back to the core one in terms of where Fusion goes in terms of the resource issue. Because it's all very well us talking about the excellent work that's been done and some of the really interesting examples et cetera, but it is, really, just scratching the surface, isn't it? And your thoughts that the capacity to expand the Fusion programme until it becomes a proper national programme—. And I understand the point you make about the problems and the dangers of formalisation, taking out the flexibility and spirit, but from what has been shown as to what can be done, how would you see it possibly expanding to be a more all-Wales-type programme, when obviously, funding is—? Funding is the elephant in the room that hits us on the head at every occasion. What can we do—[Inaudible.]—co-ordinators et cetera? How would you envisage potentially expanding that role? Is it purely money or—?

No, it's not purely money. I think I was quite careful in the repot to make it clear that, although money was going to be critical—money had to be found—it could be found from where it already was being used, by and large. I mean, the Fusion programme is incredibly cheap for the impact it has—it’s £250,000, roughly, a year; honestly. So, my answer to that—and it may be a bit of a long answer, actually—

That's okay.

And it comes back to what I was saying about—. The real challenge is to make Fusion strategic, and you do that, I think, in different ways. I always thought of it as an all-Wales programme, and indeed, I have friends in other parts of Wales who have modelled their activities in part—like in Penparcau in Aberystwyth, who've got a very Fusion-type model in what they’re doing, for example, in the local community.

So, it is spreading like osmosis—not osmosis, but like measles; slowly, like measles. But, to scale up, actually, you would have to have it driven not through the culture budget, because it really has to be an explicit part of every Government objective—to go back to where the Government was in 2013 about tackling poverty, and saying, basically, ‘This is our great, relatively modest, but powerful tool, which we haven’t yet used to the full. Let us fund some of this through economic regeneration; let’s fund some of it through the health budget; let’s fund some of it through the housing budget and the development budget; let’s look at the regional budget and how we can use some of that, and let’s look at it through the education budget—through the out-of-school work we fund, or whatever it is we’ve got happening in and around the school day.’ It needs someone to lead on that, to bring partners together. But, that is the sustainable way, that's the strategic way, and that is the radical way, frankly. That's the next step. That's implicit in this report, but I knew you couldn't actually take that step in one go.

But also, because the focus is on place—. If there's a genius in what these people have achieved, it's to actually show how, in places, things can change because everybody works together, because they know the place and they know the people. And if you have a place-based policy, you can bring all manner of things and partnerships in, as appropriate. So, it's about national strategy, but it's also about looking at these places themselves for what it is they want, they can achieve. I think we've got lots of new ways of judging place actually now. It's quite a fashionable concept, suddenly.

But one of the things that I noticed has come out of your evidence is about the expansion of partnerships. I think that is absolutely right, because one of the things I really regretted was that, at that point, I didn't put enough weight on health and mental well-being. Since then, I've done a lot more work on the arts and health, not least actually some of the work that Eluned has done in Wales, and we've had our own all-party group on arts and health in the Lords. That has been really instructive about the efficacy of investment, not just as a form of diagnosis or treatment, but as prevention. So, it's looking at the partnerships and their funding streams. I think HLF in Wales—and that's with my other hat on; the National Lottery Heritage Fund now—has been able to do some of its best work by working with Fusion, and we work increasingly strategically. We look to what's needed where, how can we help to lever more support, engagement, inclusion, around whatever sort of heritage it is we're celebrating. So, there are new strategic patterns and policies emerging.

If I may finally say on that point, the bits of the report that I think have just not been energised enough, not scaled up enough—and I know that they're ambitious, and they come back to where the Chair started, actually—are around skills and volunteering. We really need to be aggressive about this. If we're actually going to transform our working culture and give people a sense of where the careers of the future are, we've got to give them experience of where they might be now. I think getting careers advice in schools to recognise the culture and creative jobs and skills attached, getting the jobcentres—. This is something that hasn't happened—getting the jobcentres lined up behind the apprenticeships schemes, behind the volunteers, having that conversation at a political level so that people know that there is a progression that goes from the child in school who shows an aptitude for lighting, technology, whatever it is—electrics or whatever it is—going through the system, and then the jobcentre saying at the end, 'Yes, and there are jobs for people like you.' We need those sorts of strategies, really energised and wound up, I think.

John Griffiths, do you have—?

Yes, Chair. Just in terms of funding, then, I think what you set out in terms of what needs to happen in rightly ambitious, but before we get to that stage, where perhaps Welsh Government departments across the piece will see the value of the programme and want to play a greater part, there may be an interim period where more funding is made available than the very modest amount that you've rightly identified at the moment. If so, would you want that to be used to fund activities and projects? Might some of it go to those that take part and their incidental costs?

Yes, John. I think you've done quite a lot of work on transport, for example, haven't you, in the committee? Yes, absolutely. I think if you're asking the question, 'What stops people doing things?', then you come up with a variety of answers. Sometimes it is transport, definitely—most commonly, actually, especially if you're trying to get them to a cinema or a theatre or something. Sometimes, it's actually more than that. It's paying for access. That's why I was quite keen originally, as you remember, for every child in Wales to have a library card and a museum card, and a culture passport that would give them access to anything that required paying for. I think there are all sorts of perceptions of where the cost occurs for families, actually.

In terms of where could we spend the money most effectively—that's what you're asking me isn't it, actually—I think Mr Melding has identified co-ordinators, because I think if you invest in the co-ordinators, then they know what works. Then, if you invest in some of the national institutions—I heard Jason Thomas's evidence about how they were maxed out, and I can tell you as someone who sat on the museum board for four years, I can tell you that he's right—but what we do exceptionally well is almost against the odds in our outreach work and our learning programmes. I think we are absolutely fooling ourselves if we think we can get that sort of thing without investing in it. We really have to, because the outcomes are so important.

Working with schools, John, actually, I think is really, really important—giving schools the wherewithal to do more things out of school and in the holidays with their children. Actually, that always has an impact beyond the scale of the investment. So, I would look at that sort of thing as well.

I certainly want to take the advice of the co-ordinators about what it is they are desperate to do and they can't, what it is that they can only do in their patch or could they do with two or three clusters together sharing a budget. Are there talents they can share, or whatever? I think you need to look at it as a Venn diagram in a way, actually—where can the money separately go, but what is it that you get the overlap and the greatest impact with? And I think better people than I can give you that sort of advice, actually—people who really know what strands you have in the diagram. But, certainly, I think I would invest a bit more in doing a different sort of evaluation of the whole. 

Okay, and, obviously, you'd like to see funding coming from across Welsh Government departments. 

I really would. I think it would be such an investment, absolutely. 

Yes, and local authorities and the organisations themselves. 

I'm very, very loath to raise any expectations about what local authorities can fund these days. I think if they can hang on to what they've got, keep their libraries open, keep their local museum open, keep their park open, keep them maintained, keep on offering things, they're doing very well. As much as I would like to see every library in the country doing the sorts of things that Denbigh library did when I saw it a few years ago—it would be wonderful—. And libraries are doing—. I mean, they do things that are not expensive. They have story times, they have reading times, they have homework clubs. They do the things that they can do for cheap, but if you wanted them to actually be secure and really, really do the things that they might well want to do and can't do at the moment, yes, you would invest in libraries, absolutely. Invest in reading—always invest in reading. 

Just one final question from me. We heard from some of the national bodies that some were doing more than others—I don't want to name them; the national sponsored bodies—and sometimes it was just because they hadn't put the invest into this aspect of it, and the arts council said they would potentially be changing their remit letters to make this more of a mandate in that regard. What's your feeling on that? Because whether we like it or not, they are the bodies that are getting most of the money at the moment in a small field of money to the arts. And so, there's that expectation that they will be able to reach out better. What would you say to them that they would do in the first instance if they hadn't been embracing the poverty agenda before now? 

I would say, 'Go and talk to the people who are doing it well, and find out why they're managing to do it on probably the same size budget, what it is they're getting out of it, and where their partners are'. Because once you're starting these things, the funders come on board. Good funders want to see people getting the most out of the cultural institutions. That's been, for example, a principle of the Paul Hamlyn Foundation for many, many years. And once you've shown that you can do it, then you will find that there will be funding partnerships accessible to you. You may not get the money, but they're there for the asking, as it were.

Some people do it better because they've got more experienced people at the top who have done this before, shall we say. I think, in Wales we do really, really well, actually. I think Amgueddfa Cymru is a global leader in this, but I also think, actually, that some of the things the library has been doing in recent years has been remarkable. And when, of course, the library has their digital programme that the Heritage Lottery Fund has just funded, and we have the regional hubs with all those wonderful clips of life and times in Wales, that will be the place where a lot of other things can happen as well, I think.

We have to recognise that—. For example, in some of the—. If you take the archaeological societies, they haven't got much money, but some of the community archaeology work they've been doing, in places like Dyfed, is terrific. What we want to do in the Heritage Lottery Fund is make more of the conversations and the partnerships we have, so that while we can bring some funding in perhaps, they can bring more expertise and capacity. There is a real issue of capacity in Wales in these organisations. There is no doubt about it. And I think if you could arrive at a general statement about how most effectively you could raise capacity, that would be a marvellous gift, actually, for not just the institutions, but for articulating their social mission and getting them to do it. 

Okay. We don't have any more questions, but if there's anything additional that you feel that you would want to—

Well, that's very generous of you; I think I've probably talked non-stop actually. [Laughter.]

Well, you can write to us again. We know that you felt you wanted to come in to give this evidence, to speak through your thoughts, so that's been really useful to us. But don't hesitate to contact us on e-mail again if you need to. 

Well, thank you very much indeed. I was very reluctant to volunteer myself, as you may know, because I thought it's up to other people, not to me, to tell you what's happened. 

We wanted to square the circle, I think, because we've taken evidence from everybody else, and we wanted to see where your thoughts came into play. So, we do appreciate you coming in to give evidence to us today. 

Well, it's been a great pleasure and a privilege, and it's been interesting for me to know the homework that I've done on finding out exactly—not exactly, but finding out a little bit. And I've had the assistance of Martha, of course, who's been very helpful. 

Great. Thank you very much for your time. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

Thank you. Diolch yn fawr.