National Assembly for Wales

Good morning, everybody. Thank you for coming to this meeting of the Standards of Conduct Committee. This meeting is in public session. We have not had any apologies this morning. Do Members have any declarations of interest to make? Okay, no declarations of interest. Just before we begin, if anybody wants to speak, just raise your hand, and I will keep a look out for you. Just to clarify that there is simultaneous translation, and if you want to hear the interpreter, English is selected at the bottom with the globe. Attendees who do not require interpretation should ensure the 'off' is selected.

So, this morning we have the acting commissioner, Douglas Bain, with us here this morning. Obviously, we've had an interview and selection process for the position of the commissioner, and Douglas has been our chosen candidate, and he's here this morning in the pre-appointment part of the hearing. So, Douglas, would you like to outline some of the vision that you have for the standards commissioner over the next six years to the committee?

Yes. Thank you, Chair, and good morning to everyone. I think the next six years is a period of opportunity for the standards regime and indeed for the Senedd, to the extent it's been through a difficult past 18 months, and it may get more difficult over the next couple of months in the lead up to the election, but we have, or we're going to have a new code of conduct for Members, so I hope we're going to have a radically revised procedure. There will be new guidance that will follow on that, plus we'll have new Members, and I hope there will be a new commissioner. So, I think that's an opportunity to reinforce the importance of standards because the standards commissioner underpins, in many ways, the Senedd. If people don't have respect for the standards regime, it's unlikely that they will have respect for the Senedd, and there are a number of ways that I think that can be done. But it's going to have to be done against the background of a huge increase in the number of complaints being made. In January of this year, the figure was 140 compared with 106 in the whole of last year. In the last 20 days, it's risen by another 27. So, that's something that has to be addressed, and plainly that will take time for the new commissioner.

But I would like to see a reduction in the number of complaints by making the system more user friendly to eliminate the complaints that shouldn't ever come, and that would allow the commissioner—hopefully myself—more time to deal with the other aspects of the role. I think there's a need to reach out into the community to explain the standards system. I noted last night that, other than complaints from Mr McEvoy, I don't think we've had a single complaint from a member of an ethnic minority group, and it can't be that they don't feel aggrieved, so there is a problem there that needs to be addressed, and that would be one of the areas that I'd like to look at.

Also, there is, I think, something to be learned from some sort of standards network within Wales of people like the commissioner who are involved in standards. The standards commissioner at the Senedd should, I think, be taking a lead in setting standards in public office in Wales, and I'm not sure that that's the case at the moment. Thank you.

Thank you, acting commissioner. Do any Members have any questions? No Members have got any questions. Rhun.

Yes, certainly, and good morning. I think the new appointment provides a handle on which I could engage with the media, though not about particular complaints, but I think there's free publicity to be had at the time of appointment about that as a new commissioner and how I'm going to approach the work. Part of that is having new guidance on the complaints process, because, frankly, at the moment it isn't good and the process is unduly burdensome and, I think, daunting for some people.

I think another aspect is providing support to complainants, particularly where they are matters of dignity and respect, and I'd be keen to explore the possibility of having a HR person as an assessor to support people who might be reluctant to come forward. But I think it's also about getting out on the ground and, certainly, when I did the equivalent job in Northern Ireland, I used to speak to round-tables and similar organisations—at their request—and, hopefully, you recruit these people to spread the word on your behalf. And, of course, I'm not entirely clear about the position in Wales, but certainly in Northern Ireland there is a very extensive local newspaper network, and they will always cover any event like that, giving further publicity. So, it's making people aware that the system is there to help them and, if they feel aggrieved about something a Member has done, there is a way to deal with it. But equally it's about making sure the system is fair to Members and that they're not unduly burdened by frivolous complaints, because even if there's no substance to the complaint, it is still time-consuming for a Member and diverts them from the work they should be doing.

I think whoever is commissioner has to display their absolute integrity in the post, and that's why, for example, although there's no requirement for the acting commissioner to declare their private interests, one of the first things I did was display mine on my website. It's a little far-fetched, perhaps, to suggest that someone living in Northern Ireland is going to be hugely influenced by any particular political party, but I have never been a member of any political party and I certainly won't be whilst I'm holding any public office. But you also need to be seen to be fair to all complainants and Members. That includes making sure reports are dealt with within a reasonable time and making sure the public have a better understanding of the process. And, of course, if there is anything that could reasonably be perceived as being a conflict of interest—and I find it hard to imagine what that would be—then the process is there for the commissioner to recuse him or herself and for an acting commissioner to be appointed. And that was my first experience of being an acting commissioner, when Sir Roderick recused himself. And there was an occasion in Northern Ireland, when I was the commissioner, where there was a perceived conflict of interest between my role as a commissioner and a decision that I'd been involved in as a member of the Parades Commission for Northern Ireland. I recused myself and, in fact, Gerard Elias was fortunate, though you might say unfortunate, enough to be appointed as acting commissioner to deal with it.

Thank you. Diolch.

Okay. Thank you, Rhun. David.

My understanding, Douglas, is that you will be still based in Northern Ireland, and I feel that, perhaps, the public—. It's important for us to let the public know that you can operate from Northern Ireland as efficiently and with no real extra cost to the public purse. It's for whoever is on the standards committee to help explain that in general terms, but how do you feel that we ought to address that matter?

It's certainly true that you can do the job based solely in Northern Ireland, but not as effectively as I would like. Not being able to—. It is difficult, for example, to conduct an interview remotely, as you can't really observe the body language, which is often as important as what people are actually saying. So, it would be my intention to be in Cardiff approximately once a month, and more often if necessary. And I think it's important to make the personal contacts with the committee, with Members, and to be available for Members who want to just drop into the office to ask a question. And I would certainly see part of the role of the new commissioner as being involved in the induction process for new Members, but also making himself available to party groups or to individual Members, to explain my approach to the job and to answer any questions they might have about the new code.

David, did you want to come back?

Yes. I think that perhaps the public may have the perception that, obviously, there'll be extra costs involved to the public purse by you having to travel, even if it's once a month or whatever it is, to Cardiff. So, can you explain how we might be able to mitigate any journalistic attempts to point that factor out?

If anyone actually looks at the costs, they are not significant. Unfortunately, the flight from Belfast to Cardiff no longer exists, but last time I checked, the flight to Bristol booking in advance—that isn't always possible—is somewhere around £100 return, which, compared with the other costs of an investigation, is de minimis.

Okay. Thank you, David. Douglas, you were talking about presumably coming into it with a new Senedd and new Members, and, obviously, existing Members. How do you see that working to ensure that new Members and those Members who are returned are aware of the work that you're doing and your vision for the role as well over the next six years?

As regards new Members, first of all, Chair, I'm not sighted on exactly what's planned as the induction process, but I would wish to be involved in that, and if there is an opportunity to speak to the new Members, either individually or as a group, then that's something I would certainly like to take up.

As regards existing Members, or returning Members—and they're equally important in this—I would, as I did shortly after being appointed as acting commissioner, offer briefings to party groups, which were taken up by a number of the parties; other parties, I met with the party leader and he or she passed the information on to the group. But it's also about being available, whether by Zoom or telephone or during a visit to Cardiff, saying, 'I'm available during these hours. If you want to speak to me, don't hesitate to pick up the phone and we can discuss whatever it is you want to discuss.'

Thanks, Douglas. Just finally from me, you mentioned perhaps exploring the use of HR experts, or people that you think might be able to support in certain investigations. Can you say a little bit more about that?

Yes. One of the things I would like to see in the new procedure would be making it very clear that whenever anyone attends for interview, they can bring with them a friend or—it's unlikely to be a trade union representative—someone to help. But in dealing with sensitive issues—for example if someone was complaining that they'd become ill as a result of, perhaps, stress as a result of a Member's conduct—they might well be reluctant to speak to a man who is perhaps a lot older than they are and give all the details, and having, perhaps, often a female there with perhaps softer skills than I have may help. I certainly encountered this in my previous experience in Northern Ireland. There was a complaint that a Member had sexually harassed a large number of people, and I found that, after the first few interviews, there was a reluctance among some of the witnesses. I used a colleague who is experienced in HR to assist me at the interviews, and that seemed to put the witness at rest a little more. So, it's always going to be difficult for someone to give evidence about sensitive, personal matters.

But also, building on that—and it's something I would want to discuss with the committee—while the standards committee need to have the full details of anything of that nature, I'm by no means convinced that it's necessary for that to appear within the report that is published, and I would wish to discuss with the committee if I'm confirmed, whether it is necessary, ever, for the commissioner's report to be published and whether the committee's report to the Senedd is sufficient.

Okay, thank you, Douglas. Any further questions? No. Okay, that finishes that item. Thank you, Douglas.

Now I move on to item 3. I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of today's meeting. Is everybody happy with that? Yes. No objections. We'll move into private session.