Y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau Y Bumed Senedd

Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee - Fifth Senedd

09/10/2020

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Caroline Jones
Dawn Bowden
Delyth Jewell
Huw Irranca-Davies
John Griffiths Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Mark Isherwood

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Cath Wyatt Rheolwr y Bil, Llywodraeth Cymru
Bill Manager, Welsh Government
Julie James Y Gweinidog Tai a Llywodraeth Leol
Minister for Housing and Local Government

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Catherine Hunt Ail Glerc
Second Clerk
Naomi Stocks Clerc
Clerk
Stephen Davies Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
Yan Thomas Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk

Cynnwys

Contents

1. Cyflwyniadau, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau 1. Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest
2. Bil Llywodraeth Leol ac Etholiadau (Cymru): Trafodion Cyfnod 2 2. Local Government and Elections (Wales) Bill: Stage 2 Proceedings
3. Grŵp 20: Perfformiad prif gynghorau a’u llywodraethu (Gwelliannau 288, 289, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 215, 44, 45, 46, 47, 146, 147) 3. Group 20: Performance and Governance of principal councils (Amendments 288, 289, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 215, 44, 45, 46, 47, 146, 147)
4. Grŵp 21: Rhan 7 (Gwelliannau 290, 48, 216, 291, 50, 239, 292, 240, 241, 294, 51, 242, 52, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 243, 54) 4. Group 21: Part 7 (Amendments 290, 48, 216, 291, 50, 239, 292, 240, 241, 294, 51, 242, 52, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 243, 54)
5. Grŵp 22: Rhan 8 (Gwelliannau 56, 57, 58) 5. Group 22: Part 8 (Amendments 56, 57, 58)
6. Grŵp 23: Awdurdodau tân ac achub cyfunol: ymchwiliadau (Gwelliant 217) 6. Group 23: Combined fire and rescue authorities: inquiries (Amendment 217)
7. Grŵp 24: Iawndal i brif gynghorau (Gwelliant 218) 7. Group 24: Compensation for principal councils (Amendment 218)
8. Grŵp 25: Rhan 10—Dod i rym (Gwelliannau 64, 148, 149, 65, 66, 245, 246, 247, 67, 248, 68, 69, 249, 219, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 150, 76, 151, 77, 220, 250) 8. Group 25: Part 10—Coming into force (Amendments 64, 148, 149, 65, 66, 245, 246, 247, 67, 248, 68, 69, 249, 219, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 150, 76, 151, 77, 220, 250)
9. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(ix) i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o Weddill y Cyfarfod 9. Motion under Standing Order 17.42(ix) to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Remainder of the Meeting

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Cyfarfu'r pwyllgor drwy gynhadledd fideo.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 10:00.

The committee met by video-conference.

The meeting began at 10:00. 

1. Cyflwyniadau, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau
1. Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest

Welcome, Members, to this virtual meeting of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee. In accordance with Standing Order 34.19, I have determined that the public are excluded from the committee's meeting in order to protect public health. In accordance with Standing Order 34.21, notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting published on Tuesday of this week. This meeting is, however, being broadcast live on Senedd.tv with all participants joining via video-conference. A Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. 

Aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place. The meeting is bilingual and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. I remind all participants that microphones will be controlled centrally, so you do not need to turn them on or off individually, but you should accept the prompt to unmute from the sound engineer each time you are called to speak. Are there any declarations of interest? No. 

2. Bil Llywodraeth Leol ac Etholiadau (Cymru): Trafodion Cyfnod 2
2. Local Government and Elections (Wales) Bill: Stage 2 Proceedings

Then, item 2 on our agenda today is the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Bill—Stage 2 proceedings. I'm very pleased that we are joined again by Julie James MS, Minister for Housing and Local Government. Welcome, Minister. The purpose of this meeting is to continue to undertake Stage 2 proceedings on the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Bill. Stage 2 consideration began in committee on 2 October. At that meeting, sections 1 to 87 and Schedules 2 to 8 were deemed to be agreed. 

In relation to this item, Members should have before them the updated marshalled list of amendments and the updated groupings of the amendments for debate. The marshalled list of amendments is the list of all remaining amendments marshalled into the order agreed by the committee at its meeting on 16 July. The order in which we will consider amendments is outlined on the agenda. You will see from the groupings list that amendments have been grouped to facilitate debate. Amendments that were disposed of on 2 October have been struck through on the updated list. The order in which amendments are called and moved for a decision is dictated by the marshalled list. I will advise Members when I call them whether they are being called to speak in the debate or to move their amendments for a decision. There will be one debate on each group of amendments.

The first group of amendments to be debated today will be group 20. Members who wish to speak in a particular group should indicate this in the usual way. I will call the Minister to speak on each group. For the record, in accordance with the convention agreed by the Business Committee, as Chair I will move amendments in the name of the Minister. For expediency, I will assume that the Minister wishes to me to move all her amendments, and I will do so at the appropriate place in the marshalled list. Minister, if you do not want a particular amendment to be moved, please indicate this at the relevant point in proceedings. 

In line with our usual practice, legal advisers to the committee and the Minister are not expected to provide advice on the record. If Members wish to seek legal advice during proceedings, please do so by sending a direct message to the legal adviser through Zoom. If necessary, I will call an adjournment or the legal adviser will reply to you directly. As this is a virtual meeting, all votes will be undertaken through a roll-call, as agreed by the committee on 21 September. I will call each Member in alphabetical order and invite you to state whether you wish to vote in favour or against the amendment, or to abstain. I will state my own vote and declare the result. 

3. Grŵp 20: Perfformiad prif gynghorau a’u llywodraethu (Gwelliannau 288, 289, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 215, 44, 45, 46, 47, 146, 147)
3. Group 20: Performance and Governance of principal councils (Amendments 288, 289, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 215, 44, 45, 46, 47, 146, 147)

Group 20, then, relates to performance and governance of principal councils. The lead amendment is amendment 288, in the name of Delyth Jewell. I call on Delyth Jewell to move amendment 288 and speak to this amendment and other amendments in this group. Delyth. 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 288 (Delyth Jewell).

Amendment 288 (Delyth Jewell) moved.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. We have a couple of amendments in this group, but they are probing. So, to first talk about amendment 288, performance targets of local authorities have regularly been raised with us as having unintended consequences or harming in some cases vital scrutiny. So, this probing amendment covers that. An example of a specific target that does this is one that measures the amount of decisions made by planning officers that are overturned by a planning committee. We feel this target creates unintended consequences in that planning officers are too defensive sometimes about the recommendations and have the incentive to ignore concerns raised by a committee. We don't feel that this type of target helps the scrutiny process, hence why we've tabled this amendment. I'm sure there are other targets that might not be measuring the right things, so a duty to review seems the best way of dealing with this problem. We do appreciate this might not be the specific piece of legislation for this or even whether the legislation is necessary, and we'd be happy if further discussions could occur on performance targets, how they're set and kept under review.

Amendment 289 is again a probing amendment for officers to engage with all political groups. It's an amendment to clarify that officers should be engaging with all groups to help them, including in developing and proposing alternatives. It links with our previous amendment, which we discussed in our last session, about establishing a research service for councils—that is, we feel backbench members need more formal mechanisms of support in fulfilling their roles, and we're interested in hearing the Government's view on this. Diolch.

10:05

Diolch, thank you. Good morning. First of all, we support Delyth Jewell's amendment 288 because we consider it important that Welsh Ministers do not interfere in local decision-making processes, which is what this amendment also seeks to prevent. But it's also important that Ministers provide leadership by working with local councils to ensure that they're achieving positive outcomes for the people they represent. We believe Welsh Ministers must also ensure that they involve local councils as well as local people and community-based organisations throughout the reviewing of performance indicators and targets.

We also support Delyth Jewell's amendment 289 and believe it's vital that all elected Members are involved in the decision-making process of an executive, regardless of political differences. Executive senior officers must create opportunities for meaningful involvement within the decision-making process, through deliberative processes, using involvement to help co-produce services. Involvement approaches include working with people at earlier stages, helping to identify issues and potential solutions, and supporting them to remain involved right throughout design, implementation and evaluation processes.

We will also be supporting all other amendments in this group. And I will be moving amendment 215, which seeks to introduce a new provision to allow local town and community councils to be invited to be party to panel performance assessments—in other words, to be involved. The Bill as drafted requires each principal council to appoint a panel at least once during each electoral cycle to assess its performance. In written evidence to the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee, One Voice Wales, representing town and community councils, stated that they would welcome further discussions on the role that community and town councillors could play regarding membership of the panel assessment process. It added that it advocates the potential for community and town councils to support the scrutiny endeavours of principal councils. As principal councils and town and community councils frequently collaborate and work together on issues, this would allow town and community councils to provide feedback on their experiences of working with the principal council through formal mechanisms, as well as providing recommendations to improve local involvement within the decision-making process. I will be moving, as I say, accordingly.

Okay. Thank you, Mark. Are there other Members who wish to speak? No, then I call on the Minister to speak.

Thank you, Chair. This group deals with amendments to Part 6 of the Bill, which provides for a new performance and governance regime for principal councils. I'm unable to support amendment 288 as presented. Whilst I have an enormous amount of sympathy with the principle, it may have unintended consequences in practice, and as Delyth has acknowledged, it's not in keeping with the purpose of this Part of the Bill, really, quite. The new performance regime introduced in Part 6 is not about setting targets or indicators; it's about a broader, sector-led, council-wide assessment of how a council is organised and the strategic decisions it makes to achieve all of its objectives, goals and targets. It's about their ability to remain capable to respond to the changing environment in which they operate, and the approach aims to support and promote good decision making within principal councils within a regime that they can own and fit to their own individual processes. 

The Welsh Government is, however, committed to keeping under review any performance measures that are in place for principal councils and ensuring that any measures support and promote good decision making. But I think this is best achieved as part of the process of agreeing those measures within those specific areas as opposed to this broader, sector-led regime. The vast majority of those performance indicators are set out in specific statutory instruments and we're very happy to look at reviewing specifics, as Delyth has said, but that's the best place to do it rather than on the face of this particular Bill.

And again, I have a lot of sympathy with the sentiment expressed in amendment 289, but I'm not supporting it, I'm afraid. Effective, respectful relationships between members and officers go to the heart of good governance. However, as drafted, there are a number of potential unintended consequences arising from this proposed amendment. For example, what would happen about independent members not in political groups? What is meant by 'budgets and policies'? Primary legislation has got to be precise about those matters and not a statement of good intentions. I don't think that primary legislation is the place to address those concerns. So, what we'll do is look for other ways to ensure members of the opposition are fully supported by officers who, of course, legally serve the council as a whole and not just the executive. So, it's not split in the way that governments are: the officers serve the entire council. So, for example, we could consider whether guidance could be issued in relation to what constitutes effective support for scrutiny from all officers of the council. It's perfectly possible to do that.

Again, I recognise the intention behind amendment 215, although unfortunately I'm not able to support the amendment, because section 93 already allows for regulations to be made about the appointment of panels, which may include provisions about the appointment of members of a panel. Any such regulations would be subject to formal consultation and, subject to amendment 63 being supported by the committee, further scrutiny through the affirmative procedure of the Welsh Parliament. Before specifying particular membership of panels in legislation, it would be important to work through the purpose of the involvement of all specified members, including the examples that Mark Isherwood has given of community and town councils. It's also important to note that while the provisions in the Bill will give the Welsh Ministers powers to make regulations in relation to the appointment of panel members, our intention is actually to cover this through guidance in the first instance.

Turning to the amendments I've tabled, section 90 of the Bill places a duty on principal councils to report on their performance through a self-assessment report in respect of each financial year. Amendment 40 responds to the recommendation 26 of this committee and clarifies when the self-assessment report in respect of a financial year must be made. I'm happy to accept the committee's recommendation, but I don't think it's appropriate to specify a deadline for when the self-assessment report should be made. The amendment, therefore, specifies that the self-assessment report should be prepared as soon as reasonably practical following the end of the financial year to which the report relates. This is consistent with other requirements in respect of annual reports, such as the annual reports on progress and meeting well-being objectives under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. The Bill allows for the self-assessment report and the report on the progress in meeting well-being objectives to be published in the same document.

Amendment 41 is a technical amendment that seeks to ensure that the reference to the frequency of panel performance assessments using—. I'll start that again, Chair; that's a real tongue twister. It's a technical amendment that seeks to ensure that the reference to the frequency of panel performance assessments uses drafting consistent with Part 1 of the Bill, which the committee has already looked at. The policy intent remains the same and the period of time within which a principal council must make arrangements for a panel performance assessment is unchanged. Amendment 43 is then consequential on this amendment.

A number of minor technical amendments have also been made to refine the provisions in Part 6. Amendments 39, 42, 45, 46 and 47 make technical changes in relation to definitions contained within the Part. They remove duplicated definitions and confirm which sections the definitions apply to. Amendment 44 is a technical amendment to ensure consistency of drafting throughout section 102 and amendments 146 and 147 relate to the repeal of the Local Government (Wales) Measure 2009. Amendment 147 partially repeals section 33 of the Measure, retaining the provisions relating to information shared in connection with the Auditor General for Wales as relevant functions under section 17 and 19 of the Measure. Amendment 146 provides for the full repeal of section 33 when appropriate. Diolch, Chair.

10:15

Thank you very much, Minister. I call on Delyth Jewell to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I thank everyone for taking part in this debate. I was gratified to hear Mark Isherwood indicating support of the principle behind the amendments that we've placed in this group. Although I won't be moving them formally, I'm gratified to hear that we do have that support and if amendment 215 is moved, we will be supporting that, because of supporting the principle.

I do acknowledge the points that the Minister made in terms of possible unintended consequences of the drafting of amendments 288 and 289. I'd indicated in my opening remarks we'd intended these probing amendments in order to facilitate a debate, and I do welcome the assurance that the Minister's given that the Government will look at other ways of pursuing these principles, possibly through guidance. So, I'm grateful that we've had this debate and that it's on the record. Diolch yn fawr.

Okay. Delyth, do you then wish to move amendment 288?

All right. It's already been moved, so you would need—

You're happy to withdraw it, Delyth. Okay, thanks very much. So, amendment 288, then, is withdrawn.

Tynnwyd gwelliant 288 yn ôl gyda chaniatâd y pwyllgor.

Amendment 288 withdrawn by leave of the committee.

Amendment 289, Delyth; do you wish to move amendment 289?

No. I'm happy with what we've discussed in the debate. Diolch.

Okay. Does any other Member wish to move amendment 289? No. Then amendment 289 is not moved.

Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 289 (Delyth Jewell). 

Amendment 289 (Delyth Jewell) not moved.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 39 (Julie James).

Amendment 39 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 39 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 39 be agreed.

Sorry, I'm just aware at this stage that we seem to have lost Caroline Jones. I understand our ICT people are attempting to make contact with Caroline now to restore her link. Perhaps we'll take a short break at this stage of just hopefully five minutes, until 10:25, and hopefully we'll have Caroline restored at that stage. Okay. Short break till 10.25 a.m.

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:17 a 10:24.

The meeting adjourned between 10:17 and 10:24.

10:20

After a technological difficulty, we resume our public broadcast. We have reached amendment 39 in our proceedings, and I move amendment 39 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 39 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. Then I will take a vote. The question is that amendment 39 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote.

10:25

And I vote for. Therefore, in relation to amendment 39, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is agreed.

Gwelliant 39: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 39: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 40 (Julie James).

Amendment 40 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 40 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 40 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. The question then is that amendment 40 be agreed. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 40, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is agreed.

Gwelliant 40: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 40: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 41 (Julie James).

Amendment 41 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 41 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 41 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, so we will move to a vote. The question is that amendment 41 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote.

Therefore, in relation to amendment 41, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is agreed.

Gwelliant 41: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 41: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 42 (Julie James).

Amendment 42 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 42 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 42 be agreed, does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, so we will move to a vote. The question is that amendment be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 42, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is agreed.

Gwelliant 42: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 42: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 43 (Julie James).

Amendment 43 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 43 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 43 be agreed, does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and amendment 43 is agreed.

Gwelliant 43: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 43: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 215 (Mark Isherwood).

Amendment 215 (Mark Isherwood) moved.

Amendment 215 is moved. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. Therefore, we will move to a vote. So, the question is then that amendment 215 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, how do you vote?

And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 215, there voted two in favour, three against, with one abstention, and it is not agreed.

Gwelliant 215: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 215: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 44 (Julie James).

Amendment 44 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 44 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 44 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and amendment 44 is therefore agreed.

Gwelliant 44: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 44: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 45 (Julie James).

Amendment 45 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 45 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 45 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and amendment 45 is therefore agreed.

Gwelliant 45: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 45: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 46 (Julie James).

Amendment 46 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 46 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 46 be agreed, does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 46, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is agreed.

10:30

Gwelliant 46: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 46: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 47 (Julie James).

Amendment 47 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 47 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 47 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 47, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is agreed.

Gwelliant 47: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 47: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 146 (Julie James).

Amendment 146 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 146 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 146 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 146, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is agreed.

Gwelliant 146: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 146: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

4. Grŵp 21: Rhan 7 (Gwelliannau 290, 48, 216, 291, 50, 239, 292, 240, 241, 294, 51, 242, 52, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 243, 54)
4. Group 21: Part 7 (Amendments 290, 48, 216, 291, 50, 239, 292, 240, 241, 294, 51, 242, 52, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 243, 54)

Okay, we move, then, to group 21, relating to Part 7 of the Bill. The lead amendment is amendment 290 in the name of Delyth Jewell, and I call on Delyth Jewell to move amendment 290, and speak to this amendment and other amendments in this group. Delyth.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 290 (Delyth Jewell).

Amendment 290 (Delyth Jewell) moved.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I hope that this amendment is straightforward—it's a probing amendment again. So, amendment 290 was tabled to clarify whether merged councils should be required to prepare a new local development plan to reflect the changes and new requirements of the area. Again, I hope it's relatively self-explanatory. Diolch.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Delyth. I call on Mark Isherwood to speak.

In this group, our amendment 216 seeks to remove the power for local authorities or Welsh Ministers to decide on what voting system is to be used in the first ordinary election of councillors to the principal council for a new principal area. The section 125 voting system allows for merger regulations to specify what electoral system—first-past-the-post or single transferrable vote—is to be used in the first elections to a newly created principal council. Our amendment seeks to remove this choice, ensuring that first-past-the-post is used in any local government election to ensure consistency of local government electoral systems across Wales, unless and until the calls by virtually every witness to committee for an all-Wales system or no change are addressed. 

Okay, thank you, Mark. Are there any other Members who wish to speak? No, then I call on the Minister to speak.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Whilst I understand the sentiment behind amendment 290, I can't support it because the main purpose is already provided for in the Bill. Section 123 provides for the transfer of the functions of the merging councils to the new principal council. This must take place on the transfer date, when the merging councils are abolished and the new council assumes their functions. As preparing a local development plan is a function of a principal council, it will transfer to the new council on the transfer date by virtue of section 123, so there is no need to restate it. 

I also feel that the timescale given in the amendment is unrealistic. The development plans manual sets out a realistic time period of three and a half years, plus a one-off three-month slippage period within which to prepare an LDP. The 18 months specified in this amendment would not allow sufficient time for local communities to engage fully in the plan-making process.

I think it's worth pointing out, though, that if you were in—it depends where the cycle of the LDP is. So, obviously, preparatory work on an LDP could begin under a shadow council. It's the actual adoption of the LDP that takes the full cycle, so I think it's worth pointing that out in the light of Delyth's comments earlier. 

Then, in terms of amendment 216, we're not supporting that either, I'm afraid. It removes section 125, which requires merger regulations to specify which of the two voting systems will apply to the council created by the merger. I would expect merging councils to agree which system would apply, but in the absence of an agreement a formula is set out in subsection (2)(b) of that section, which takes into account the systems being used by the merging councils.

I can't support amendments 291, 292 and 294 because, obviously, they impose STV on the new councils created by merger or restructuring. This runs counter to the principle of councils being able to choose their voting system as provided for in Part 1 of this Bill, which of course the committee considered in its previous session and rejected. So, amendments to the provisions that provide for this choice are now in the Bill in the Part that the committee considered in its last session.

I also do not support amendments 239 to 242. The amendments seek to omit provisions that set out how a situation, whereby councils involved in a restructure have different voting systems, would be resolved. Without these provisions, it would be unclear as to which of the voting systems would apply. For example, before the first ordinary elections were held across the enlarged authority, a by-election was required in a ward transferred from an abolished authority that used first-past-the-post to an adjoining authority that used STV. The provisions are needed to provide clarity and I recommend that the amendments are therefore rejected on that basis.

And I'm afraid I also cannot support amendment 243, which would omit section 137 whereby the Welsh Ministers may direct the Local Democracy and Boundary Commission for Wales to undertake a review of authorities that are the subject of a merger application, or where Ministers have given notice that they propose to make restructuring regulations. If a new authority is being created by a merger or restructuring, there would have to be new electoral wards for the new area and they should be the subject of an initial review by the boundary commission. If, on creating a new authority, by either voluntary merger or restructuring, Ministers are unable to direct the boundary commission to undertake the initial review, the only other option would be for Ministers themselves to do the review, and I'm sure the committee would agree that that's not the best solution to that problem.

The main amendment among the amendments that I've tabled is amendment 54. That consolidates into a single section a range of guidance provisions currently scattered throughout Part 7. These provisions are removed by amendments 48 through 52, 86 and 90. Amendment 54 also expands the list of bodies that must have regard to guidance issued by the Welsh Ministers in relation to Part 7. Such guidance would likely be helpful to those bodies in the circumstances of a merger or restructuring.

Amendments 88 and 89 are technical amendments consequential to amendment 54. And finally, Chair, amendment 87 is a minor technical amendment addressing a typographical error in the Welsh text. Diolch.

10:35

Okay, thank you, Minister. I call on Delyth Jewell to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I thank everyone for taking part in the debate. I will not be moving the lead amendment.

Okay, Delyth. In that case, it has been moved, so you would need to withdraw.

You're happy to withdraw amendment 290. Amendment 290 is therefore withdrawn.

Tynnwyd gwelliant 290 yn ôl gyda chaniatâd y pwyllgor.

Amendment 290 withdrawn by leave of the committee.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 48 (Julie James).

Amendment 48 (Julie James) moved.

I then move amendment 48 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 48 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so we move, then, to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

Yes, I could see the indication, Huw, thank you. Mark Isherwood. We're unable to hear Mark at the moment either.

Mark is muted, but I don't think he can hear us either.

I did unmute, but it's remuted. So, sorry. What number were we on? I didn't hear you say what number.

We're on amendment 48, Mark, in the name of the Minister.

Okay, and I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 48, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is therefore agreed.

Gwelliant 48: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 48: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 216 (Mark Isherwood).

Amendment 216 (Mark Isherwood) moved.

Okay, amendment 216 is moved. The question is that amendment 216 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 216, there voted two in favour, three against, with one abstention, and it is therefore not agreed.

Gwelliant 216: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 216: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 291 (Delyth Jewell).

Amendment 291 (Delyth Jewell) moved.

10:40

Okay. The question is that amendment 291 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 291, there voted one in favour, with four against and one abstention, and it is therefore not agreed.

Gwelliant 291: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 291: For: 1, Against: 4, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 49 (Julie James).

Amendment 49 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 49 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 49 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 49, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is therefore agreed.

Gwelliant 49: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 49: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 50 (Julie James).

Amendment 50 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 50 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 50 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and amendment 50 is therefore agreed.

Gwelliant 50: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 50: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 239 (Caroline Jones). 

Amendment 239 (Caroline Jones) moved.

Okay. If amendment 239 is agreed, amendment 292 falls. The question is that amendment 239 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 239, there voted two in favour, with four against, and it is not agreed.

Gwelliant 239: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 239: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cadeirydd, just to check, this is just a consequential amendment, isn't it? So, no, I won't be moving it.

Does any other Member wish to move amendment 292? No. Then amendment 292 is withdrawn—sorry, is not moved.

Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 292 (Delyth Jewell).

Amendment 292 (Delyth Jewell) not moved.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 240 (Caroline Jones).

Amendment 240 (Caroline Jones) moved.

Okay. The question is that amendment 240 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 240, there voted two in favour, with four against, and it is not agreed.

Gwelliant 240: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 240: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 241 (Caroline Jones).

Amendment 241 (Caroline Jones) moved.

If amendment 241 is agreed, amendment 294 falls. The question is that amendment 241 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 241, there voted two in favour, with four against, and it is not agreed.

Gwelliant 241: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 241: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Again, Cadeirydd, forgive me, I think that this is a consequential amendment, and in which case, no, I will not be moving it.

Does any other Member wish to move amendment 294? No. Then amendment 294 is not moved.

Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 294 (Delyth Jewell).

Amendment 294 (Delyth Jewell) not moved.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 51 (Julie James).

Amendment 51 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 51 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 51 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Then amendment 51 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 242 (Caroline Jones).

Amendment 242 (Caroline Jones) moved.

Okay. The question is that amendment 242 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote against. Therefore, there voted two in favour, with four against, and amendment 242 is not agreed.

10:45

Gwelliant 242: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 242: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 52 (Julie James).

Amendment 52 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 52 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 52 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Then amendment 52 is agreed. 

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 86 (Julie James).

Amendment 86 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 86 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 86 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Then amendment 86 is agreed. 

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 87 (Julie James).

Amendment 87 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 87 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 87 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Then amendment 87 is agreed. 

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 88 (Julie James).

Amendment 88 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 88 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 88 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. There is an objection, so we will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 88, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is agreed.

Gwelliant 88: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 88: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 89 (Julie James).

Amendment 89 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 89 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 89 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 89, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is agreed.

Gwelliant 89: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 89: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 90 (Julie James).

Amendment 90 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 90 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 90 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and amendment 90 is therefore agreed.

Gwelliant 90: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 90: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 243 (Caroline Jones).

Amendment 243 (Caroline Jones) moved.

Okay. The question is that amendment 243 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 243, there voted two in favour, with four against, and it is not agreed.

Gwelliant 243: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 243: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 251 (Caroline Jones).

Amendment 251 (Caroline Jones) moved.

Okay. The question is that amendment 251 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 251, there voted two in favour, with four against, and it is not agreed.

Gwelliant 251: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 251: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 53 (Julie James).

Amendment 53 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 53 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 53 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 53, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is therefore agreed.

Gwelliant 53: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 53: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 54 (Julie James).

Amendment 54 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 54 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 54 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 54, there voted five in favour, with one against, and it is therefore agreed.

Gwelliant 54: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 54: For: 5, Against: 1, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 55 (Julie James).

Amendment 55 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 55 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 55 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 55, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is therefore agreed. 

10:50

Gwelliant 55: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 55: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

5. Grŵp 22: Rhan 8 (Gwelliannau 56, 57, 58)
5. Group 22: Part 8 (Amendments 56, 57, 58)

Part 8 of the Bill is covered by group 22, and the lead amendment in the group is amendment 56, in the name of the Minister. 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 56 (Julie James).

Amendment 56 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 56 in the name of the Minister and call on the Minister to speak to this amendment and other amendments in this group. Minister. 

Thank you, Chair. Amendments 56 and 57 are minor technical amendments to address an incorrect cross-reference to a subparagraph. The substantive amendment in this group is amendment 58, which makes provisions in respect of council tax liability. The primary intention behind this amendment relates to care leavers' liability for the payment of council tax. Under the Local Government Finance Act 1992, council tax is payable in relation to chargeable dwellings. The Welsh Ministers have powers under that Act to prescribe classes of dwellings as exempt dwellings, therefore rendering them exempt from the payment of council tax. Subordinate legislation has been made classing as exempt any dwelling that comprises solely of care leavers, students and/or persons who are severely mentally impaired.

As Members will be aware, there are also existing provisions that provide for a discount on the amount of council tax payable in certain circumstances. For example, under the 1992 Act, a discount of 25 per cent is available where a person lives alone or two or more persons live together and all but one are disregarded for the purposes of council tax.

The Welsh Ministers may prescribe classes of persons who are to be to disregarded for the purposes of council tax. This allows a billing authority to treat such a person as non-existent for the purpose of determining applicable discounts. This Government made subordinate legislation in 2019 in this respect so as to provide for care leavers to be disregarded. However, the Welsh Ministers do not have power to exempt care leavers from being jointly and severally liable for the payment of council tax. This leaves us in the situation whereby a care leaver is essentially exempt from council tax, however if living with a person who's liable for council tax and that person fails to pay, the care leaver is considered jointly and severally liable.

The amendment addresses this unacceptable anomaly by enabling the Welsh Ministers to specify in regulations that classes of persons disregarded for the purpose of council tax are also not to be held jointly or severally liable for that tax. Diolch, Cadeirydd. 

Okay. Thank you, Minister. Are there other Members who wish to speak? No. I see no other Members wishing to speak, so there is no debate to reply to, Minister. Minister, do you wish to proceed with a vote on amendment 56?

Yes, okay. So, the question is that amendment 56 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Then amendment 56 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 57 (Julie James).

Amendment 57 (Julie James) moved.

I move Amendment 57 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 57 be agreed. Does any Member object? Object, Caroline?

Yes. We will move, then, to a vote on amendment 57. Dawn Bowden.

Okay. And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 57, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is therefore agreed. 

Gwelliant 57: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 57: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 58 (Julie James).

Amendment 58 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 58 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 58 be agreed. Does any Member object? No, then amendment 58 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 147 (Julie James).

Amendment 147 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 147 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 147 be agreed. Does any Member object? No, then amendment 147 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 91 (Julie James).

Amendment 91 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 91 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 91 be agreed. Does any Member object? No, then amendment 91 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 254 (Caroline Jones).

Amendment 254 (Caroline Jones) moved.

Okay. The question is that amendment 254 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 254, there voted one in favour, with four against, and it is therefore not agreed.

Gwelliant 254: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 254: For: 1, Against: 4, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 59 (Julie James).

Amendment 59 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 59 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 59 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

10:55

And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 59, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is therefore agreed.

Gwelliant 59: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 59: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 60 (Julie James).

Amendment 60 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 60 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 60 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 60, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is therefore agreed.

Gwelliant 60: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 60: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

6. Grŵp 23: Awdurdodau tân ac achub cyfunol: ymchwiliadau (Gwelliant 217)
6. Group 23: Combined fire and rescue authorities: inquiries (Amendment 217)

Group 23, then, relates to combined fire and rescue authorities and inquiries. The lead and only amendment in the group is amendment 217 in the name of Mark Isherwood. I call on Mark Isherwood to move amendment 217 and speak to this amendment. Mark.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 217 (Mark Isherwood).

Amendment 217 (Mark Isherwood) moved.

Amendment 217 seeks to remove section 162: combined fire and rescue authorities: inquiries. Section 162 of the Bill covers inquiries into finance and governance arrangements for fire and rescue authorities. It was established by combination Orders under the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004. Section 162 amends the 2004 Act to remove the requirement for Welsh Ministers to hold an inquiry and varying an authority's combination Order, except where the variation alters the area served by a fire and rescue authority, or revokes the combination Order with a view to creating a wholly different configuration of fire and rescue authorities in Wales.

However, the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee heard unanimous evidence from the three Welsh fire and rescue authorities and Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Service to this provision. In evidence, south Wales fire and rescue authority noted its 'grave concerns', quote. It explained that the provision was put in place 'for a reason', quote, which was, quote,

'to ensure due regard was given to the safety of firefighters or the community before changes were implemented that could detrimentally impact on these.'

South Wales fire and rescue authority emphasised:

'This change is an extremely concerning step as it could result in unsuitable or ill thought through changes being made to some of the key areas noted above without sufficient inquiry, debate, scrutiny or challenge.'

North Wales fire and rescue authority also strongly voiced its concerns, noting, quote:

'The notion that changing, for example, governance or funding arrangements of fire and rescue authorities (which are currently being considered) would have no direct impact on public or firefighter safety is flawed. We would suggest that placing convenience over the protections afforded by the need to hold an inquiry in Wales would seem a retrograde step, not without some risk to public and firefighter safety.'

Mid and west Wales fire and rescue authority stated that there are 'clear flaws in the proposals', quote, and that such inquiries, quote, 'enhance and facilitate good decision making', adding, quote,

'If proposals are impractical or ill thought out, or unreasonable, an inquiry would act as an open and efficient brake or filter on any such proposals, and are consequently very much in the public interest.'

Thus, as this committee's Stage 1 report states, as supported by this committee's members, south Wales and mid and west Wales fire and rescue authorities were clear in requesting that the provision in section 162 be removed from the Bill. I will be moving this amendment accordingly, in accordance both with the call by the authorities, but also by the unanimous wish of this committee at Stage 1. 

11:00

Okay. Thank you, Mark. Are there other Members who wish to speak? No. Then I call on the Minister to speak.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I'm afraid I cannot support amendment 217. We've had discussions with the FRAs for a number of years regarding reform of their governance and finance arrangements and have undertaken a public consultation on these matters. Whilst this has not led to any firm decisions being made, the case remains there is no reason for a local public inquiry into national proposals for FRA governance and finance reform. In addition, public interest in these matters is often very low.

Removing this additional and unnecessary requirement will simplify an overcomplicated and expensive process. No other public body has the power to consent to changes in their own governance arrangements or to force an inquiry if they do not, and I'm afraid I'm not convinced that FRAs should be a special case.

The requirement on the Welsh Ministers to fully consult on any proposed changes to combination Orders will, of course, remain in place. FRAs have pointed out that the current public inquiry provisions are in place for public safety purposes. I cannot see why that should be so, except if we were contemplating changes to FRA boundaries. I can confirm that the requirement to hold a public inquiry will remain in place where the proposed changes to the combination Orders would affect boundaries or should there ever be a proposal to revoke a combination Order in its entirety. We have no interest in such proposals at this stage, but I feel it is very important to maintain this safeguard.

This was, of course, always the original purpose of the requirement: to provide a mechanism by which the public have an opportunity to feed decisions that affect the provision of front-line services. It was not to give FRAs the power to impede or oppose any necessary changes to their governance arrangements. Diolch, Cadeirydd.

Okay. Thank you, Minister. And Mark Isherwood to respond. Mark. You're muted at the moment, Mark.

Thank you. Only to reiterate the very worrying comments made that the proposal that this would have no direct impact on public or firefighter safety is flawed, that this would be a retrograde step, that inquiries do enhance and facilitate good decision making, and that the proposals are impractical or potentially ill thought out, stand. I have to defer, in this case, to the expertise of those working in these services, and again remind the committee that, having heard the same evidence that I heard, you supported this at Stage 1, and I would urge you to stay loyal to your convictions then. Thank you.

Okay. The question is then that amendment 217 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden. Dawn.

Okay. And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 217, there voted two in favour, three against, with one abstention, and it is therefore not agreed.

Gwelliant 217: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 217: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

7. Grŵp 24: Iawndal i brif gynghorau (Gwelliant 218)
7. Group 24: Compensation for principal councils (Amendment 218)

Group 24 relates to compensation for principal councils. The lead and only amendment in the group is amendment 218 in the name of Mark Isherwood. I call on Mark Isherwood to move amendment 218 and speak to this amendment. Mark.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 218 (Mark Isherwood).

Amendment 218 (Mark Isherwood) moved.

Good. [Laughter.] There's lots of muting gremlins around today, I think. Amendment 218 seeks to establish a duty on the Welsh Government to compensate local authorities for any costs incurred as a result of provisions contained within the Bill. The regulatory impact assessment states the total cost of the Bill will be around £17.17 million, including transitional costs for local government of approximately £2.95 million. Given pressures on local government finances, and particularly in light of the COVID-19 crisis, the Welsh Government must ensure that it provides the resources necessary to enact the Bill and ensure that the Bill ultimately achieves its aims.

As such, our amendment reflects comments made by stakeholders during Stage 1 proceedings, including by the Welsh Local Government Association, who stated that

'the Welsh Government should fully fund any new national initiatives or the implications of any legislation on local authorities.'

I will be moving accordingly.

11:05

Okay. Thank you, Mark. Are there any other Members who wish to speak? No. Then I call on the Minister to speak.

Thank you, Chair. I do not support amendment 218. Principal councils receive funding from the Welsh Government through the local government settlement, which is made up of the revenue support grant and the redistribution of non-domestic rates. This funding is unhypothecated and therefore is to be used to deliver statutory duties as well as non-statutory services, as determined by each individual council. Welsh Ministers are required to consult principal councils on the provisional allocation of the RSG and NDR for a six to eight week period before determining the final distribution. Prior to this, representatives and independent experts are involved in the detailed considerations relating to any changes to the distribution formula.

In addition, principal councils also raise council tax and collect income from sales, fees and charges. They also receive specific grants from Welsh Government and other bodies for specific projects and programmes, or to deliver targeted outcomes. There is already an arrangement that is agreed, tried and tested with local government, which considers all three of these aspects of principal council funding in the round. This includes identifying and considering new burdens placed on principal councils, such as those that arise from legislation. The finance sub-group of the partnership council and its distribution sub-group ensure appropriate consideration is given to these matters. I therefore cannot support this amendment. Diolch.

Thank you. As I stated, the Welsh Local Government Association told us that 

'Welsh Government should fully fund any new national initiatives or the implications of any legislation on local authorities.'

This is consistent with the regular concerns raised with me, and, presumably, with you all otherwise as well, that the financial impact assessments for Welsh Government legislation, whatever its intent, have grossly underestimated over the years the costs incurred in consequence by local authorities, and the cumulative impact has been huge, impacting on all their other services and, of course, on their other internal financial management. This simply therefore seeks to recognise what should be, I believe, self-evident, that, when we legislate, whatever the outcome of our votes on legislation, whatever legislation comes out at the end of the process, this shouldn't be imposing unfunded costs on those we require to then deliver the consequences of that legislation. So, as I say, I urge Members to support this, particularly in the current environment where added pressure on local authorities would not only be unwelcome, but it could be counter-productive. 

Okay. Thank you, Mark. The question then is that amendment 218 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 218, there voted one in favour, with four against and one abstention, and it is therefore not agreed.

Gwelliant 218: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 218: For: 1, Against: 4, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 61 (Julie James).

Amendment 61 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 61 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 61 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Then amendment 61 is agreed. 

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 62 (Julie James).

Amendment 62 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 62 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 62 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and amendment 62 is therefore agreed. 

Gwelliant 62: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 62: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 63 (Julie James).

Amendment 63 (Julie James) moved. 

I move amendment 63 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 63 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 63, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is therefore agreed. 

Gwelliant 63: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 63: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

11:10

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 244 (Caroline Jones).

Amendment 244 (Caroline Jones) moved.

Okay. The question is that amendment 244 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden. 

And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 244, there voted one in favour, with four against and one abstention, and it is therefore not agreed. 

Gwelliant 244: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 244: For: 1, Against: 4, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

8. Grŵp 25: Rhan 10—Dod i rym (Gwelliannau 64, 148, 149, 65, 66, 245, 246, 247, 67, 248, 68, 69, 249, 219, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 150, 76, 151, 77, 220, 250)
8. Group 25: Part 10—Coming into force (Amendments 64, 148, 149, 65, 66, 245, 246, 247, 67, 248, 68, 69, 249, 219, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 150, 76, 151, 77, 220, 250)

Okay. That brings us to group 25, then, the coming into force provisions in Part 10 of the Bill. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 64 in the name of the Minister. 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 64 (Julie James).

Amendment 64 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 64 in the name of the Minister and call on the Minister to speak to this amendment and other amendments in this group. Minister.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. This is a group of technical amendments, all of which make provision for the coming into force of various aspects of the Bill. This group comprises a number of amendments that can be viewed as pairs. One amendment removes existing coming into force provisions, whilst the other inserts the necessary revised provision. For the purposes of simplicity and brevity, I will therefore address the amendments in pairs. 

Amendments 64 and 75 provide for the provisions in respect of family absence for members of principal councils to come into force the day after the day of Royal Assent. Amendments 148 and 150 provide that Part 5 of the Bill also comes into force the day after the day of Royal Assent.

Amendments 149 and 151 are linked to amendment 148 and provide for relevant parts of section 156 to be commenced alongside Part 5.

Amendments 65 and 71 are consequential to amendment 78, which was agreed by this committee last week. These amendments have the effect of bringing the provision inserted by amendment 78 into force the day after the day of Royal Assent.

Amendments 66 and 72 are consequential to amendment 84, which was also agreed by this committee last week. These amendments have the effect of bringing the provision inserted by amendment 84 into force the day after the day of Royal Assent.

Amendments 67 and 77 are technical amendments, consequential to amendments agreed by this committee last week, and clarify the coming into force arrangements in respect of section 2 of the Bill.

Amendments 68 and 69 remove the coming into force arrangements in respect of provisions relating to a database for electoral information and election pilot schemes, which are being removed from the Bill following the agreement of the committee last week. 

Amendment 70 is a technical amendment that clarifies that section 28 of the Bill comes into force in the same way as section 29, whilst amendment 73 clarifies that paragraph 20 of Schedule 2 comes into force subject to the transitional provision set out in section 3.

Amendment 74 is consequential to amendment 36, agreed by this committee last week, and makes the necessary provision for the coming into force of the new section in respect of job sharing in non-executive offices in principal councils. 

And finally, amendment 76 is another consequential amendment, this time to amendment 58, which was debated earlier today in group 22. The amendment provides that the new section in respect of joint and several liability for council tax will come into force two months after Royal Assent. Diolch. 

Oh, sorry, turning to—. There are so many amendments in this group, Chair, that I lost my place for just one moment—

—in an excess of enthusiasm. 

Turning to the amendments tabled by members of the committee, I cannot support amendment 219, as it is an unnecessary amendment in the light of amendments 69 and 70, which I have just tabled. I also cannot support amendments 220, 245, 246, 247, 248 or 250. Each of these amendments are consequential to amendments that the committee did not agree last week. If these amendments were agreed, they would remove the coming into force arrangements for provisions that do remain in the Bill. Diolch. 

Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Gweinidog. I call on Mark Isherwood to speak. 

Diolch. Thanks. Amendments 219 and 220, as we just heard from the Minister, are consequential, in fact, to amendments 160 to 168. These amendments seek to remove the ability of local authorities to change their voting system from first-past-the-post to single transferable vote to ensure consistency of local government electoral systems across Wales. As I stated when moving amendment 160, and quoting the Welsh Local Government Association, there's a need for

'a clear and consistent voting system across all local authorities to avoid complexity and risk of voter confusion'

and that the complexity of allowing principal councils to choose their own voting system could be 'quite horrendous', with the potential for chaos a real concern.

This was also, as I indicated last week, a view endorsed by a range of other bodies, particularly those who'll be charged with delivering any change to the system. Consistent with the arguments I made then, consistent with the concerns raised with this committee at Stage 1, I still seek to move these amendments.

11:15

Okay, thank you, Mark. Are there other Members who wish to speak? No. Then, I call on the Minister to reply. 

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I don't really have anything else to add to my arguments. I understand the point that Mark Isherwood is making, but, as I said, the committee's already removed those provisions from the Bill and these are just consequential amendments to make sure that the Bill makes sense in its entirety as a result of earlier decisions by the committee. Diolch.

Okay. So, Minister, you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 64.  

The question is that amendment 64 be agreed. Does any Member object? Caroline, did you object? Sorry, I think you're muted.

Object, yes. Okay, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

Okay, and I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 64, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is therefore agreed.

Gwelliant 64: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 64: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 148 (Julie James)

Amendment 148 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 148 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 148 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 148, there voted four in favour, with two abstentions, and it is therefore agreed. 

Gwelliant 148: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 148: For: 4, Against: 0, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 149 (Julie James).

Amendment 149 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 149 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 149 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and amendment 149 is therefore agreed.

Gwelliant 149: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 149: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 65 (Julie James).

Amendment 65 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 65 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 65 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 65, there voted four in favour, with two abstentions, and it is therefore agreed.

Gwelliant 65: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 65: For: 4, Against: 0, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 66 (Julie James).

Amendment 66 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 66 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 66 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 66, there voted four in favour, with one against and one abstention, and it is therefore agreed.

Gwelliant 66: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y cynnig

Amendment 66: For: 4, Against: 1, Abstain: 1

Motion has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 245 (Caroline Jones).

Amendment 245 (Caroline Jones) moved.

Okay, the question is that amendment 245 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 245, there voted two in favour, with four against and it is therefore not agreed.

11:20

Gwelliant 245: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 245: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 246 (Caroline Jones).  

Amendment 246 (Caroline Jones) moved.

The question is that amendment 246 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 246, there voted one in favour, four against, with one abstention, and it is therefore not agreed.

Gwelliant 246: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 246: For: 1, Against: 4, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 247 (Caroline Jones).  

Amendment 247 (Caroline Jones) moved. 

If amendment 247 is agreed, amendment 67 falls. The question is that amendment 247 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden. 

And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 247, there voted one in favour, four against, with one abstention, and it is therefore not agreed.

Gwelliant 247: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 247: For: 1, Against: 4, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 67 (Julie James).

Amendment 67 (Julie James) moved. 

I move amendment 67 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 67 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden. 

And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 67, there voted four in favour, with two abstentions, and it is therefore agreed.

Gwelliant 67: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 67: For: 4, Against: 0, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 248 (Caroline Jones). 

Amendment 248 (Caroline Jones) moved.

Okay, the question is that amendment 248 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 248, there voted two in favour, with four against, and it is therefore not agreed.

Gwelliant 248: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 248: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 68 (Julie James). 

Amendment 68 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 68 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 68 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden. 

And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 68, there voted four in favour, with two abstentions, and it is therefore agreed.

Gwelliant 68: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 68: For: 4, Against: 0, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 69 (Julie James). 

Amendment 69 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 69 in the name of the Minister. If amendment 69 is agreed, amendments 249 and 219 fall. The question is that amendment 69 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will then move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 69, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is therefore agreed.

Gwelliant 69: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 69: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Methodd gwelliannau 249 a 219. 

Amendments 249 and 219 fell.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 70 (Julie James). 

Amendment 70 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 70 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 70 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden. 

Okay, and I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 70, there voted four in favour, with two abstentions, and it is therefore agreed. 

Gwelliant 70: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 70: For: 4, Against: 0, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 71 (Julie James).

Amendment 71 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 71 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 71 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

11:25

And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 71, there voted four in favour, one against, with one abstention, and it is therefore agreed.

Gwelliant 71: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 71: For: 4, Against: 1, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 72 (Julie James).

Amendment 72 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 72 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 72 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 72, there voted four in favour, with one against and one abstention, and it is therefore agreed.

Gwelliant 72: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 72: For: 4, Against: 1, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 73 (Julie James).

Amendment 73 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 73 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 73 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 73, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is therefore agreed.

Gwelliant 73: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 73: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 74 (Julie James).

Amendment 74 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 74 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 74 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 74, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is therefore agreed.

Gwelliant 74: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 74: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 75 (Julie James).

Amendment 75 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 75 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 75 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Then amendment 75 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 150 (Julie James).

Amendment 150 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 150 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 150 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, so we will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 150, there voted four in favour, with two abstentions, and it is therefore agreed.

Gwelliant 150: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 150: For: 4, Against: 0, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 76 (Julie James).

Amendment 76 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 76 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 76 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and amendment 76 is therefore agreed.

Gwelliant 76: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 76: For: 5, Against: 0, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 151 (Julie James).

Amendment 151 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 151 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 151 be agreed. Does any Member object? No, then amendment 151 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 77 (Julie James).

Amendment 77 (Julie James) moved.

I move amendment 77 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 77 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 77, there voted four in favour, with two abstentions, and it is therefore agreed.

Gwelliant 77: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 77: For: 4, Against: 0, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been agreed

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 220 (Mark Isherwood).

Amendment 220 (Mark Isherwood) moved.

Okay, if amendment 220 is agreed, amendment 250 will fall. The question is that amendment 220 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 220, there voted two in favour, with four against, and it is therefore not agreed.

Gwelliant 220: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 220: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

11:30

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 250 (Caroline Jones).

Amendment 250 (Caroline Jones) moved.

Okay. The question is that amendment 250 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 250, there voted two in favour, with four against, and it is therefore not agreed.

Gwelliant 250: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 250: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 225 (Caroline Jones).

Amendment 225 (Caroline Jones) moved.

The question is that amendment 225 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.

And I vote against. Therefore, there voted one in favour, four against, with one abstention, and amendment 225 is therefore not agreed. 

Gwelliant 225: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 225: For: 1, Against: 4, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Well, that completes our amendments for today, and I very much wish to thank the Minister and her officials for their attendance. You will be sent a transcript, Minister, to check for factual accuracy. Diolch yn fawr.

This completes Stage 2 proceedings, then, and Stage 3 will begin on Monday 12 October. The relevant dates for Stage 3 proceedings will be published in due course. Standing Orders make provision for the Minister to prepare a revised explanatory memorandum, taking account of the amendments agreed today. The revised memorandum will be laid at least five working days before Stage 3 proceedings. Diolch yn fawr to everyone for their participation in these proceedings. 

Barnwyd y cytunwyd ar bob adran o’r Bil.

All sections of the Bill deemed agreed.

9. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(ix) i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o Weddill y Cyfarfod
9. Motion under Standing Order 17.42(ix) to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Remainder of the Meeting

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(ix).

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

And that, then, takes us to item 3 on our agenda today, a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of today's meeting. Is committee content so to do? Yes. We will, then, move into private session.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 11:32.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 11:32.