Y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau Y Bumed Senedd
Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee - Fifth Senedd
02/10/2020Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol
Committee Members in Attendance
Caroline Jones | |
Dawn Bowden | |
Delyth Jewell | |
Huw Irranca-Davies | |
John Griffiths | Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor |
Committee Chair | |
Mark Isherwood | |
Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol
Others in Attendance
Cath Wyatt | Llywodraeth Cymru |
Welsh Government | |
Julie James | Y Gweinidog Tai a Llywodraeth Leol |
Minister for Housing and Local Government |
Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol
Senedd Officials in Attendance
Catherine Hunt | Ail Glerc |
Second Clerk | |
Naomi Stocks | Clerc |
Clerk | |
Yan Thomas | Dirprwy Glerc |
Deputy Clerk |
Cynnwys
Contents
Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.
The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.
Cyfarfu'r pwyllgor drwy gynhadledd fideo.
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 10:00.
The committee met by video-conference.
The meeting began at 10:00.
May I welcome Members to this virtual meeting of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee? In accordance with Standing Order 34.19, I have determined that the public are excluded from the committee's meeting in order to protect public health. In accordance with Standing Order 34.21, notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting, published on Tuesday of this week. This meeting is, however, being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, with all participants joining via video-conference. A Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place. The meeting is bilingual, and simultaneous translation, from Welsh to English, is available. I would remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally, so do not turn them on or off individually but wait for a prompt to unmute from the sound engineer each time you are called to speak.
So, item 1, then: introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. We haven't received any apologies or substitutions. Are there any declarations of interest? No.
Then we will move on to item 2, the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Bill, Stage 2 proceedings. I'm very pleased that we're joined today by Julie James MS, Minister for Housing and Local Government. Welcome, Minister. Would you like to introduce your officials? Well, actually, you haven't got any visibly with you, but I'm sure you've got some necessary help on hand, so we'll dispense with that.
The purpose of the meeting, then, is to undertake Stage 2 proceedings on the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Bill, and members of the committee should have before them the marshalled list of amendments and the groupings of the amendments for debate. The marshalled list of amendments is the list of all amendments tabled, marshalled into the order agreed by the committee at its meeting on 20 July. So, for this meeting, the order in which we will consider amendments is outlined on the agenda. You will see from the groupings list that amendments have been grouped to facilitate debate. The order in which amendments are called and moved for a decision is dictated by the marshalled list. I will advise Members when I call them whether they are being called to speak in the debate or to move their amendments for a decision. There will be one debate on each group of amendments. Members who wish to speak in a particular group should indicate this in the usual way. I will call the Minister to speak on each group. For the record, in accordance with the convention agreed by the Business Committee, as Chair, I will move amendments in the name of the Minister. For expediency, I will assume that the Minister wishes me to move all her amendments, and I will do so at the appropriate place in the marshalled list. Minister, if you do not want a particular amendment to be moved, please indicate this at the relevant point in proceedings.
In line with our usual practice, legal advisers to the committee and the Minister are not expected to provide advice on the record. If Members wish to seek legal advice during proceedings, please do so by sending a direct message to the legal adviser through Zoom. If necessary, I will call an adjournment, or the legal adviser will reply to you directly. As this is a virtual meeting, all votes will be undertaken through roll-call, as agreed by committee on 21 September. I will call each Member in alphabetical order and invite you to state whether you wish to vote in favour or against the amendment, or to abstain. I will state my own vote and declare the result.
Group 1, then, relates to eligibility to vote in local government elections. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 228, in the name of Caroline Jones. I call on Caroline Jones to move amendment 228 and speak to this amendment and other amendments in this group. Caroline.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 228 (Caroline Jones).
Amendment 228 (Caroline Jones) moved.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. I put forward the amendments in this group—in fact, all of my amendments—because I do not believe that we should be thinking about changing the electoral arrangements for local government before we have even tackled reform of local government. The systems of local government in this country are a mess. All the political parties accept this, and yet, despite years of plans and discussions, nothing has changed. Why have the promised reforms not been delivered? Why have manifesto pledges been broken? If one were cynical, one might jump to the conclusion that the vested interests of political parties are being put before the needs of the Welsh public. Party politics should have no role to play in waste collection, in public libraries, social services or the vast plethora of services provided by local government, services that have been cut to the bone or decimated by falling budgets.
The finances of local government would be in a much better situation if there wasn't so much waste and duplication. Wales, with its population of 3.1 million people, does not need 22 local authorities. We have a similar-sized population to the city of Birmingham, which is governed by a single city council. But, rather than tackle the issue head on, Welsh Government has opted to create various boards and bodies to aid collaboration, which is all well and good, but that just adds additional costs and complexity. And this is the issue a local government Bill should have been addressing, not how we elect local government. Until we address true reform in local government, I cannot support any changes to the electoral arrangements or franchise for local government.
And if we just consider the franchise for a moment, I have concerns about extending the franchise to 16-year-olds. We have a bizarre situation when the UK and Welsh Parliaments have been restricting 16-year-olds, preventing them from smoking, visiting a tanning salon or getting intimate body piercing, and yet we allow them to vote. So, the argument many politicians have put forward for lowering the voting age is that 16-year-olds can get married, have children, join the armed forces and so they should be able to vote. But what they fail to add is the need for parental consent, and yes, you can get married or enter into a civil partnership at 16, but you have to get permission from the parents. You can also join the army at 16, but, once again, you need permission from a parent or guardian. So, unless those advocating votes at 16 are also going to reduce the age of majority, I believe that the voting age should remain at 18. Regardless, I am of the firm opinion that franchise changes should occur only after we sort out the mess that is local government in Wales at present, and I hope that Members will agree with me and support my amendments. Diolch, Cadeirydd.
I call on Mark Isherwood to speak.
Diolch. Good morning, everyone. Briefly, I'll just comment on the other amendments and then move to our own. We'll abstain on Caroline Jones's amendments. Whilst they align with some of our own amendments, they don't in some other ways. So, we agree with the removal of the automatic right of all qualifying citizens to vote in local government elections and the removal of the ability for local authorities to change their voting system for local government elections, but we remain neutral on the issue of allowing 16 and 17-year-olds to vote in local government elections, hence our abstention.
We are seeking to support the Welsh Government amendments. There is one I seek clarity from the Minister on when she responds, and that's amendment 78, regarding the definition of 'secure accommodation'. Could she confirm whether this applies to young people who have custodial sentences or only those who are in secure accommodation not with a custodial sentence?
I'll move on to moving our own amendments, and I'll start with, obviously, amendments 157 and 158. These remove the current provision that extends the right to vote in local government elections to all foreign citizens regardless of citizenship. Most countries that allow non-citizens to vote have a minimum residency requirement. For example, to be eligible to vote in New Zealand, the person has to have lived continuously in the country for 12 months, whilst to vote in regional and municipal elections in Denmark, a person has to have had permanent residence in that country for three years before the date of the election. As such, we believe that voting rights should be attached to a person's period of residency. Our amendment 174, which follows later, will be dependent upon the outcome of this vote.
As I stated in the Stage 1 debate, currently Irish and Commonwealth citizens and relevant EU citizens can vote in local government and devolved elections, but this Bill would enable all foreign citizens legally resident in Wales to vote in local government elections. There's a long-standing reciprocal agreement between the UK and the Republic of Ireland as a consequence of the historical relationship between both countries, and the ability of Commonwealth citizens to vote in UK elections is a legacy of the Representation of the People Act 1918. However, we believe that this Bill as drafted in this context proposes a step too far. At least most of the few countries that allow foreign citizens to vote have a minimum residency requirement, but even that is missing here. As David Melding said when scrutinising similar provisions in the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Bill,
'their citizenship should determine where they principally vote, and if they make the choice not to pursue citizenship here, then it's their choice not to have political rights to the extent of voting in our elections'.
Amendment 159 I move. This introduces a specific duty on Welsh Ministers to introduce a national framework to promote awareness of the extension of the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds, and to develop a national framework on promoting awareness and on political education. This amendment responds to the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee's recommendation 2 in our Stage 1 report, which argued that the Bill should be amended to include specific provision to roll out an adequate level of education on politics and democracy in Wales across all schools. The Welsh Government recognised the intention behind the recommendation, but did not accept it. However, this amendment recognises the concerns of stakeholders such as the Electoral Reform Society Cymru, which argued that the current framework for political education in schools is not adequate to raise awareness amongst young people. They also stated that there is a democratic deficit across the whole of the Welsh population, but that teaching young people in Wales about Wales should be prioritised. Moreover, the Wales Electoral Co-ordination Board stated that consistency is of paramount importance when planning electoral events and suggested a national framework for public awareness would be preferable to 22 local authorities leading their own public awareness campaigns in slightly differing manners. The Association of Electoral Administrators agreed that any additional promotion activities should be properly resourced and follow a consistent approach. As we stated in our committee Stage 1 report, and as we recommended in our report on diversity in local government, we believe that the Bill should include provisions to roll out an adequate level of education on politics and democracy in Wales across all schools. I move accordingly.
Are there other Members who wish to speak? No, then I call on the Minister to speak.
Thank you, Chair. I very much welcome the opportunity to consider amendments to the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Bill today. This Bill is fundamental to providing local authorities with the powers and tools they have been asking for in order to deliver effective public services.
Sorry—my computer's just shut itself off. One second. There we go.
I'd like to place on record my thanks to all the members of this committee for their scrutiny of this Bill, and particularly to those Members who have tabled amendments to the Bill. May I also place on record my assurance to Members that we have considered very carefully each and every amendment tabled?
Turning to the amendments in group 1, the Welsh Government believes that anyone contributing to the social or economic life of Wales should have the right to vote in local elections on issues that affect their daily lives. I do not support amendment 228. The Welsh Government has made it very clear over the last four years that we believe the franchise for devolved elections should include those aged 16 and 17 years and those legally resident in Wales.
Last year, the Senedd voted by a two-thirds majority to extend the franchise for its elections, and I believe this should be replicated for local government elections. Two different franchises for devolved elections in Wales would be unfair to voters. I do not believe there is any reason why someone voting in a Senedd election should not vote in a local government election. Those who are affected by the decisions of local government should be able to elect their representatives.
I also cannot support amendment 157 or amendment 158. The Welsh Government believes that anyone contributing to the social and economic life of Wales should have the right to vote in local elections on issues that affect their daily lives. We consulted in 2017 on whether or not the franchise should be extended to qualifying foreign citizens, and 73 per cent of those responding agreed that everyone living in Wales should be able to vote, irrespective of where they were born. Qualifying foreign citizens are now able to register to vote and are doing so, and will be eligible to vote in the 2021 Senedd elections. We do not believe there is any reasonable justification why someone voting in a Senedd election should not be able to vote in a local government election.
I cannot support amendment 229. I do not support the removal of the provisions that are subject to the transitional provisions in section 3, and therefore I cannot support this amendment, which seeks to remove the section.
Amendments 3 and 4 are technical amendments to ensure the transitional provision in section 3 of the Bill only has effect for local government elections and referendums.
I do not support amendment 230. Supporting young people, particularly those in the most vulnerable situations, to understand their rights to vote and participate in democratic processes is essential if we are to engage the electorate in a meaningful and long-lasting way. While recent reforms to the electoral registration system have simplified the process for administrators, it is essential that new voters are supported to ensure they understand the registration processes properly and are able to engage with it actively.
I also cannot support amendment 159. I fully agree that providing support to young people in developing a good understanding of democratic processes is a vital part of extending the franchise for local government elections. However, the Welsh Government has been clear in its intentions that the curriculum for Wales will allow teachers to decide how to deliver education tailored to the specific needs of their pupils. One of the four purposes of the curriculum is to support learners to become ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world. Good political education will be an essential part of the successful delivery of this core purpose. Access to good resources and support for teachers is critical, and we have been working with the Senedd Commission, the Electoral Commission and other key partners to develop resources to support the delivery of political education. We're also working with education consortia to develop professional learning to support teachers as they design and develop their curriculum around political education.
Amendment 5 is a consequential amendment that paves the way for the substantive amendment, amendment 6. Amendment 6 amends the definition of 'relevant young people' in section 4 to include an additional group of young persons. This extends a principal council's duty to promote awareness among and provide assistance to young people about registering as local government electors to care leavers who have reached the age of 14 and are under 18 who are not resident in the council's area and for whom the principal council has statutory responsibilities under section 109 of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014.
Amendment 78 alters 7B of the Representation of the People Act 1983 to enable all young people from Wales in secure accommodation in the UK to register as local government electors using a declaration of local connection. All young people from Wales aged 16 and over who are placed in secure accommodation are already eligible to vote in devolved elections, and thus are entitled to register to vote. There are only 22 secure accommodation places available in Wales, all in south Wales. At any time, some secure accommodation placements for Wales are likely to be in England, including any from north Wales and any young women. Without the entitlement to register by using a declaration of local connection, young persons in secure accommodation would be deemed to be resident at the secure children's home where they are placed. If the home is in Wales, they would register in the locality of the secure children's home; if they are placed in England, there could be dispute about their entitlement to register in the home authority and, being under 18, they would not be eligible to vote in English local government elections. Enabling all young persons from Wales in secure accommodation to register using a declaration of local connection is an irrefutable statement that young persons in such accommodation are entitled to register to vote, and in the area they come from. And I urge the committee to support this amendment.
I also cannot support amendment 226. I reject the principle upon which this amendment is made, for the reasons I have already set out. It would fundamentally harm democracy in Wales to have two different franchises operating for devolved elections. I also believe that providing principal councils with the option of adopting the single transferrable vote as an electoral system is important to reflecting the individual circumstances of each authority.
So, in summary, Chair, I ask members of the committee to support amendments 3, 4, 5, 6 and 78 in my name, and to reject amendments 228, 229, 230, 157, 158, 159 and 226. Thank you.
Thank you. I call on Caroline Jones to reply to the debate.
I just stand by the speech that I've just made, Chair. Thank you very much.
Okay. Caroline, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 228? Mark, you have your hand raised, sorry.
I asked the Minister one question on amendment 78.
Apologies, Mark.
I don't know if we can take any further—. We can. Yes, okay, Mark. Go on. Minister.
Obviously I said that we're minded to support this, but we needed one aspect clarified. So, I wonder if the Minister could confirm whether the definition of young people in secure accommodation would include those serving custodial sentences.
Yes. So, it's important to recognise, Mark, that all young people already have the right to vote. This amendment is about registering to vote using a declaration of local connection. It doesn't confer the right to vote; it allows them to register using a local connection. So, they already have the right to vote. And, yes, it applies to everyone. Apologies, Chair, I should have made that clear in my submission.
Okay, thank you, Minister. Thank you, Mark. Caroline Jones, then, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 228?
Yes, Chair.
Yes, okay. So, the question is that amendment 228 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we have an objection. So, I will therefore take a vote by roll-call. So, the question, then, is that amendment 228 be agreed. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies, please state your vote.
Against.
Delyth Jewell, please state your vote.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Yn erbyn. Caroline Jones, please state your vote.
Mark Isherwood, please state your vote.
Abstain.
Okay, and I vote against. So, in relation to amendment 228, there voted one in favour, four against and one abstention, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 228: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 157?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 157 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 157 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
I do.
The question is that amendment 157 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we have an objection, so I will therefore take a vote by roll-call. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. So, in relation to amendment 157, we have one in favour, four against and one abstention, so amendment 157 is not agreed.
Gwelliant 157: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 158 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 158 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
The question is that amendment 158 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection, so I will again take a vote by roll-call. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 158, we have one in favour, four against and one abstention, and that amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 158: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Caroline, do you wish to move amendment 229?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 229 (Caroline Jones).
Amendment 229 (Caroline Jones) moved.
Moved. I do, Chair.
Okay. The question is that amendment 229 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will therefore take a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote against. Therefore, we have one in favour, four against, one abstention, and amendment 229 is not agreed.
Gwelliant 229: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 3 (Julie James).
Amendment 3 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 3 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 3 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. So, we will take a vote by roll-call. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote for. Therefore, in relation to amendment 3, we have four in favour, one against, one abstention, and that amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 3: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 4 (Julie James).
Amendment 4 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 4 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 4 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. So, we will take a vote by roll-call. Dawn Bowden, please state your vote.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote for. So, in relation to amendment 4, we have four in favour, one against, one abstention, and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 4: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Caroline Jones, do you wish to move amendment 230?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 230 (Caroline Jones).
Amendment 230 (Caroline Jones) moved.
I do.
If amendment 230 is agreed, amendments 159, 5 and 6 fall. The question is that amendment 230 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will take a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 230, we have one in favour, four against, one abstention, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 230: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 159?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 159 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 159 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
I do.
The question is that amendment 159 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will take a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 159, we have one in favour, four against and one abstention, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 159: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 5 (Julie James)
Amendment 5 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 5 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 5 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we have an objection. We will take a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 5, we have five in favour, one against, and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 5: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 0
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 6 (Julie James).
Amendment 6 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 6 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 6 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we have an objection. We will take a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 6, we have five in favour, one against, and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 6: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 0
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Group 2 relates to the voting system for local government elections. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 257 in the name of Delyth Jewell, and I call on Delyth Jewell to move amendment 257 and speak to this amendment and other amendments in this group. Delyth.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 257 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 257 (Delyth Jewell) moved.
Diolch, Gadeirydd. We’ve tabled these amendments to change the voting system in local government to a fair system. The arguments for doing this have been rehearsed before. First-past-the-post has created many undemocratic outcomes. For an example, in Sketty in Swansea in 2012, the Liberal Democrats won all five seats despite gaining just 38 per cent of the vote. The Labour Party on 29.2 per cent and the Conservatives on 20 per cent all failed to gain a seat in that five-member ward, despite strong local support. Under the current system, those who finish third in terms of share of the vote can go on to win the most seats. The starkest example of this has been from 2008, where the Liberal Democrats came first in terms of seats for Cardiff, but third in terms of votes. This isn't a partisan point—all parties have benefited disproportionately from first-past-the-post, and all have suffered from it. Multimember wards make this even worse, and create something of a lottery. The question is whether we accept unfairness and a lottery, or make a positive change, so I will be putting these to a vote. Diolch, Gadeirydd.
I call on Mark Isherwood to speak. Mark, we—
Right. Our amendments—. Can you hear me?
Yes, thank you.
Our amendments in this group seek to remedy the ability of local authorities to change their voting system from first-past-the-post to singe transferable vote. This reflects evidence received by the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee at Stage 1, where the majority of stakeholders did not support the provisions to enable principal councils to choose which voting system to use. I, therefore, call on committee members to be consistent to the views and concerns expressed at that stage. For example, the Welsh Local Government Association stated there's a need for a clear and consistent voting system across all local authorities to avoid complexity and risk of voter confusion, adding that the complexity of allowing principal councils to choose their own voting system could be quite horrendous, with the potential for chaos a real concern.
Similar concerns and opposition to the provision were expressed by all of the principal councils and representatives of town and community councils that responded to the committee's consultation. SOLACE, the society of local authority chief officers, acknowledged that there may be perceived benefits of allowing principal councils a choice, but suggested that the risk of complexity and confusion around having two voting systems
'could have the potential to disenfranchise voters with the worst-case scenario being an impact on turnout'.
The Electoral Commission, whilst noting the electoral system to be used for local government elections is a matter for the Welsh Government and the Senedd to determine, concurred there are risks and challenges associated with the provision. This includes an increased risk of voter confusion and administrative challenges. The commission noted that it would be required to publish two sets of guidance—one on each voting system for electoral administrators, for political parties, candidates and agents—and run separate public awareness campaigns. The Electoral Commission also referred to the ethos of consistency in electoral planning that has developed in Wales over recent years, and said it would be disappointed if that co-ordinating activity was to be undermined by different systems operating in different counties.
As I stated during the Stage 1 debate, 33 out of 35 respondents to the White Paper consultation disagreed with this and preferred to keep one voting system for the whole of Wales. Further, as our committee report states, the majority of the evidence received opposes the provisions that allow principal councils to choose their own voting systems. The regulatory impact assessment also notes that additional costs will be incurred should a principal council opt to change its voting system, but that these costs are currently unknown.
Amendment 169 seeks to ensure that Welsh Government fully involves stakeholders before making rules on the conduct of local elections in Wales. In its Stage 1 report, the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee suggested that the Welsh Government engages with principal councils and communities before reforming electoral arrangements. But this amendment, our amendment, seeks to go further than the committee's suggestion by making it a requirement to actively involve principal and community councils, as well as local communities, to ensure that any changes to electoral arrangements are genuinely co-produced by the communities that they affect, rather than imposed upon them. As I also argued in the Stage 1 committee debate, it's therefore deeply concerning that the Minister rejected the committee recommendation that the Welsh Government undertakes an engagement programme with the Welsh Local Government Association, principal councils and communities across Wales around reforming voting arrangements for local government elections. Our amendment would also bring this Bill in line with the seven well-being goals and the five ways of working required of public bodies in order to meet their duties under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. I conclude.
Okay. I call on Caroline Jones to speak.
Diolch, Gadeirydd. I share Delyth's belief that there shouldn't be two systems for electing councillors in Wales. I also believe that proportional representation should be the method used for electing our representatives. First-past-the-post does not deliver democracy, and if we look at the constituency votes of the 2016 Senedd elections, Labour won 27 seats, yet just 15 per cent of Welsh people eligible to vote supported them, and that is hardly a mandate to govern. Proportional representation is fairer. However, I will be abstaining on Delyth's amendments because, as I stated earlier, this is putting the cart before the horse and we need to determine the future shape of local governance in Wales before we decide on how to elect its members. Diolch, Gadeirydd.
Diolch. Are there other Members who wish to speak? Huw Irranca-Davies.
Thank you, Chair. I just want to speak briefly in terms of Delyth's amendments, in terms of voting reform. I've long been a supporter of reform towards more proportionality both in Senedd elections and local authority elections. In fact, we discussed this extensively when we were taking evidence as well. But when the Minister appeared in front of us, it became quite clear that despite sympathy with these views and a willingness to take a step forward, there was no pressing demand out there from local authorities of any political persuasion to move ahead in this, and if there was, the measures within this Bill as currently proposed would enable that to be done on a local basis. It's far from perfect, I have to confess, and I can see, Chair, you're nodding as well because I'm suspecting where your sympathies may lie. But what we do have within the Bill as proposed is a significant step forward, because for the first time ever it is now countenanced that, subject to local determination, STV can actually be taken forward within a local authority. Now, as somebody who supports STV, that's something I welcome entirely, but I do think, further to this Bill, beyond this Bill, we'll probably have to do a lot more as electoral reformers to argue the case across the country and locally that there is a need for this to reflect greater diversity, greater representative diversity, in our local authorities, as well as at the Senedd eventually as well. But this is a step forward, so I'll be supporting the Government here, but I'll continue my passionate advocacy going forward, alongside others like Delyth—and I suspect others on this committee as well who are unable to speak on this particular amendment—to see electoral reform going forward. But I'm content with where the Government have got to on this because it allows that local determination. The opportunity to introduce STV is here. It provides the challenges of having two local authorities having different systems running alongside, but I don't underestimate the intelligence of the electorate to make sense of that as well. So, I'll be supporting the Government. I have sympathy with Delyth's amendments here, but I just think this is a big step forward as it is.
Okay. Diolch, Huw. Does any other Member wish to speak on this? No. Okay. I call on the Minister to speak.
Thank you, Chair. The Welsh Government's policy as provided for in this Bill is to offer principal councils a choice between the two voting systems. Each council election is a separate event; voters will be focused on the election for their council, not on the council next door. I consider that introducing the local choice supports the principle of decisions being made at a more local level, and allows a council to reflect the different needs and demographics across parts of Wales. As such, I'm sorry that I cannot support any of the amendments tabled in this group from Delyth Jewell. Amendments 257 to 263 have the effect of mandating STV for all principal council elections, and remove the choice introduced by the provisions in the Bill.
I also can't support amendments 296, 297 and 255. These are consequential upon the amendments from Delyth Jewell, which I've already listed, and remove various other references to provision about the simple majority system, first-past-the-post, across the Bill. Nor do I support any of the amendments in this group tabled by Mark Isherwood. Amendments 160 to 168 and amendment 170 remove the provisions that provide for the introduction of STV as one of two voting systems that would be available to principal councils. These amendments would keep the status quo—so the simple majority system, or first-past-the-post—for all elections for principal councils, and no choice.
I cannot support amendments 222, 223 and 156. These are consequential upon the amendments from Mark Isherwood, which I've already listed, and remove various other references to provision about STV across the Bill. I ask Members to support amendments seven and eight, which are technical amendments to correct an incorrect cross-reference in Schedule 1. These amendments alter the English text only, as the Welsh version of the Bill is correct. I cannot support amendment 231. Section 13 of the Bill, which this amendment seeks to remove, inserts a new section, 36A, into the Representation of the People Act 1983, enabling the Welsh Minister to make rules in respect of the conduct of local elections in Wales.
And turning to my final amendments in this group, amendments 92 and 93, which also relate to section 13 of the Bill, as currently drafted, rules in respect of the conduct of elections may apply with or without modifications to the parliamentary election rules. These amendments expand this existing power to modify so as to enable the rules to amend, modify, repeal or revoke any enactment. Similar powers were provided to the Secretary of State when the supplementary vote system was introduced for PCC elections. As stated by the Law Commission, electoral law is complex, voluminous and fragmented with an enormous amount of primary and secondary legislation governing elections. Any new electoral legislation will have implications on a range of existing enactments. It is essential that any new electoral law is in agreement with all existing law and electoral practices, with these able to be modified where necessary, to ensure that legislation is fit for purpose.
I therefore consider it prudent to have a broad power, although I hasten to add that its application is strictly limited to modifications connected with, or as a consequence of, the conduct rules. In line with committee recommendations, these rules are subject to the affirmative Senedd procedure.
I also cannot support amendment 169. The Welsh Government believes that the Welsh Ministers should consult those they deem appropriate, and this would include those listed in this amendment, when developing the rules for local government elections in Wales. Our amendment 9 in the next group delivers this. The breadth of the power set out in amendment 9 will allow the Welsh Ministers to consult with the Electoral Commission, electoral administrators, returning officers, members of local authorities, and any group with an interest in the changes being made. In addition, amendment 9 is consistent with other consultation requirements in Part 1 of the Bill. If amendment 169 was adopted, it would question the scope of other consultation requirements. Diolch.
Diolch. I call on Delyth Jewell to reply to the debate.
I thank Members for their contributions. I welcome what Huw Irranca-Davies was saying; I do appreciate that individual Members will be in different places, on individual journeys, with this. I do feel fervently that proportional representation is the direction in which we will eventually travel, if that's the right metaphor, and so I will be putting these to a vote to put that marker down that I look forward to a time when we have a more proportional voting system for everyone, and I'm sure that other Members will agree with that. And so diolch, Cadeirydd.
Okay, diolch. So, Delyth Jewell then has indicated that she wishes to proceed to a vote on amendment 257. If amendment 257 is agreed, amendment 160 falls. The question is that amendment 257 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Against.
And I vote against. Therefore, regarding amendment 257, there voted one in favour and four against and one abstention. Therefore, that amendment is not agreed.
Gwelliant 257: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 160?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 160 (Mark Isherwood, gyda chefnogaeth Caroline Jones).
Amendment 160 (Mark Isherwood, supported by Caroline Jones) moved.
I do.
The question is that amendment 160 be agreed, does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Mark Isherwood.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 160, there voted two in favour and four against, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 160: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 161? Yes.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 161 (Mark Isherwood, gyda chefnogaeth Caroline Jones).
Amendment 161 (Mark Isherwood, supported by Caroline Jones) moved.
I do.
You do. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Mark Isherwood.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 161, there voted two in favour and four against, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 161: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Delyth Jewell, do you wish to move amendment 258?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 258 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 258 (Delyth Jewell) moved.
Yes, Cadeirydd.
Yes. The question is that amendment 258 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Against.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to 258, there voted one in favour, four against, one abstention, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 258: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 259?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 259 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 259 (Delyth Jewell) moved.
I do, Cadeirydd.
Okay. The question is that amendment 259 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Against.
And I vote against. In relation to amendment 259, there voted one in favour, four against and one abstention, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 259: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 162?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 162 (Mark Isherwood, gyda chefnogaeth Caroline Jones).
Amendment 162 (Mark Isherwood, supported by Caroline Jones) moved.
I do.
If amendment 162 is agreed, amendment 260 falls. The question is that amendment 162 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Mark Isherwood.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 162, there voted two in favour and four against, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 162: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 260?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 260 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 260 (Delyth Jewell) moved.
Yes, Cadeirydd.
Yes. The question is that amendment 260 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Against.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 260, there voted one in favour, four against, one abstention, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 260: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 163?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 163 (Mark Isherwood, gyda chefnogaeth Caroline Jones).
Amendment 163 (Mark Isherwood, supported by Caroline Jones) moved.
I do.
The question is that amendment 163 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Mark Isherwood.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 163, there voted two in favour, four against, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 163: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 164?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 164 (Mark Isherwood, gyda chefnogaeth Caroline Jones).
Amendment 164 (Mark Isherwood, supported by Caroline Jones) moved.
I do.
The question is that amendment 164 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Mark Isherwood.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 164, there voted two in favour, four against, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 164: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 165?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 165 (Mark Isherwood, gyda chefnogaeth Caroline Jones).
Amendment 165 (Mark Isherwood, supported by Caroline Jones) moved.
I do.
The question is that amendment 165 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Mark Isherwood.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 165, there voted two in favour, four against, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 165: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 166?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 166 (Mark Isherwood, gyda chefnogaeth Caroline Jones).
Amendment 166 (Mark Isherwood, supported by Caroline Jones) moved.
I do.
If amendment 166 is agreed, amendments 7 and 8 fall. The question is that amendment 166 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Mark Isherwood.
And I vote against. In relation to amendment 166, there voted two in favour, four against, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 166: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 7 (Julie James).
Amendment 7 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 7 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 7 be agreed. Does any Member object? No Member has objected, therefore amendment 7 is agreed.
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.
Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 8 (Julie James).
Amendment 8 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 8 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 8 be agreed. Does any Member object?
Abstain.
Okay. No Member objects, therefore amendment 8 is agreed.
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.
Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 167?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 167 (Mark Isherwood, gyda chefnogaeth Caroline Jones).
Amendment 167 (Mark Isherwood, supported by Caroline Jones) moved.
I do.
If amendment 167 is agreed, amendment 261 falls. The question is that amendment 167 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Mark Isherwood.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 167, there voted two in favour, four against, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 167: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 261?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 261 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 261 (Delyth Jewell) moved.
I do, Cadeirydd.
The question is that amendment 261 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Against.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 261, there voted one in favour, four against and one abstention, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 261: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Caroline, do you wish to move amendment 231?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 231 (Caroline Jones).
Amendment 231 (Caroline Jones) moved.
I do.
If amendment 231 is agreed, amendments 168, 262, 92, 93, 9, 169, 10, 170 and 263 fall. The question is that amendment 231 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Mark Isherwood.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 231, there voted two in favour, four against, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 231: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 168?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 168 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 168 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
I do.
If amendment 168 is agreed, amendment 262 falls. The question is that amendment 168 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 168, there voted one in favour, four against and one abstention, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 168: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 262?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 262 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 262 (Delyth Jewell) moved.
I do, Cadeirydd.
The question is that amendment 262 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Against.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 262, there voted one in favour, four against, with one abstention, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 262: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 92 (Julie James).
Amendment 92 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 92 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 92 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. There is an objection, so we will take a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Against.
And I vote for. Therefore, in relation to amendment 92, there voted four in favour, one against, one abstention, and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 92: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 93 (Julie James).
Amendment 93 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 93 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 93 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will take a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood.
Against.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 93, there voted four in favour, two against, and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 93: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 2, Ymatal: 0
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Group 3 contains miscellaneous amendments relating to electoral arrangements. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 9 in the name of the Minister.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 9 (Julie James).
Amendment 9 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 9 in the name of the Minister and call on the Minister to speak to her amendment and the other amendments in this group. Minister.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. The Government amendments in this group will enable election rules to be made for local government elections that reflect our electoral reform programme and will require Welsh Ministers to consult widely on those rules. Amendment 9 amends section 13 so as to require the Welsh Ministers to consult before making any rules relating to the conduct of local government elections under the new section 36A of the Representation of the People Act 1983. It also provides that the duty to be satisfied by a consultation being undertaken before the section comes into force. This will allow the Welsh Ministers to consult on amendments to the local government rules in a timely manner for the elections in 2022. Amendment 10 makes an addition to section 13, enabling the Welsh Ministers to make different provision for different purposes when making rules around local government election in Wales under the new section 36A.
I cannot support amendment 238. The provisions under this section reference minor and consequential amendments that allow the electoral provisions of the Bill to work properly. It is essential that these provisions remain if the law is to be functional when enacted. This Bill does contain powers for the Welsh Ministers to make consequential amendments. However, I believe it is only right that the Senedd can consider as many of those proposed amendments as possible, which is why they've been included on the face of the Bill.
I cannot support amendment 252. Schedule 2 to the Bill provides for those minor and consequential amendments relating to the electoral provisions of the Bill. It is essential that these minor and consequential amendments are made so that there is coherence across the statute book and the provisions contained within the Bill function as intended.
I have tabled amendment 79, which introduces a duty on the Welsh Ministers to consult with appropriate persons prior to making the local government rules about combination of polls under the new section 36B of the Representation of the People Act 1983.
I cannot support amendment 221. I believe that any rules made under section 36B of the Representation of the People Act 1983 should be made by the Welsh Ministers and in the form of a statutory instrument and should be subject to the affirmative procedure in the Senedd.
Amendment 80 is a consequential amendment as a result of section 13 of the Bill to ensure that certain parts of the Representation of the People Act 1983 have effect for community council elections, subject to such adaptations, modifications and exceptions as maybe made by rules under the new section 36A.
Amendment 81 is consequential to the provisions of section 13 and amends the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 to reflect that the Welsh Ministers will no longer be making rules under section 36 of the Representation of the People Act 1983 in the light of the new section 36A being inserted by section 13 of the Bill. The amendment achieves this by inserting a new paragraph to Schedule 2 to the Bill that already makes amendments to the 2000 Act.
Amendment 82 removes consequential amendments made in relation to the database of electoral registration information, and amendment 83 is a technical amendment with the purpose of correcting a reference to the interpretation section of the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Act 2020.
Amendment 84 amends the Representation of the People (England and Wales) Regulations 2001 to introduce an 'M' marker on the combined electoral register to indicate that a qualifying foreign citizen is registered only in the register of local government electors in Wales and, as such, only entitled to vote at devolved elections. In practice, electoral registration officers are already doing this; the law is therefore being amended to reflect existing practice.
I cannot support amendment 253. Schedule 6 to the Bill provides for consequential amendments relating to assistance to local authority executives. The paragraph this amendment removes is necessary for ensuring a consistent interpretation of the law in relation to those members of a local authority that cannot be appointed officers. Nor do I support amendment 251. This amendment removes the Schedule that sets out the procedure for the boundary commission to undertake initial reviews for councils that have opted to change their voting system and for new councils, created by voluntary merger or restructuring. When such reviews cannot be done by the commission, the necessary task of new warding would fall to the Welsh Ministers. These amendments prevent key elements of the Bill from being implemented and I urge the committee not to support them.
I also cannot support amendment 254. Schedule 12 to the Bill provides for the abolition of polls consequential on community meetings under the Local Government Act 1972. The paragraph this amendment removes is necessary to ensure the provisions around the making of rules for local government elections in Wales function as this Bill intends.
Finally, I do not support amendment 225. One of the main purposes of this Bill is to bring about reforms to local government elections in Wales and to implement necessary administrative reforms, for example the simplification of the disqualification regime around local government elections. I wholeheartedly do not support an amendment that would look to remove an entire suite of reforms the Welsh Government feel are highly desirable and necessary to make our electoral system fit for the twenty-first century. Diolch, Cadeirydd.
Diolch. I call on Caroline Jones to speak. Caroline.
I'm having trouble with my mute button, Cadeirydd. Diolch, Cadeirydd. As I outlined my reasons for my amendments earlier, I won't labour the point, but I do have sympathy with Mark's amendments, but I will be abstaining for the reasons I outlined earlier.
I do believe that we need greater transparency in all elections and referenda, Cadeirydd, and I stand by the points that I made earlier and that I disagree totally with Julie. I feel that there should be a qualifying period for people to vote in any elections prior to coming into the country. Diolch, Cadeirydd.
Diolch. I call on Mark Isherwood to speak.
Unmute. Thank you. Well, consistent with our previous amendments, amendment 221 seeks to remove the current provision within the Bill to allow all qualifying foreign citizens to vote in local government elections. This is consistent with the view that we've held that voting rights should be attached to a person's period of residency, consistent with international good practice and, of course, reflecting the consensus of popular opinion and public expectations of us. I move—or will be moving accordingly.
Are there other Members who wish to speak? Any other Member wish to speak? No, okay. Then I call on the Minister to reply to the debate.
Just briefly, Chair, I have listened very carefully to Members' views, but I'm afraid I have not been persuaded by them, and therefore I ask Members to support the Government amendment in this group, but not the non-Government amendments. Diolch.
Okay, thanks for that, then. The question, then, is that amendment 9 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we have an objection, so we will take a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 9, there voted four in favour, one against, with one abstention, and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 9: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 169?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 169 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 169 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
I do.
The question is that amendment 169 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
And I vote against. There voted one in favour, four against, with one abstention. Amendment 169 is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 169: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 10 (Julie James).
Amendment 10 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 10 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 10 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, there voted five in favour, one against, and amendment 10 is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 10: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 0
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 170?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 170 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 170 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
I do.
If amendment 170 is agreed, amendment 263 falls. The question is that amendment 170 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 170, there voted one in favour, four against, with one abstention, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 170: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 263?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 263 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 263 (Delyth Jewell) moved.
I do, Cadeirydd.
The question is that amendment 263 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will take a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Against.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 263, there voted one in favour, four against, with one abstention, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 263: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Okay, at this stage, I think we might take a short break. We've almost reached 11.15 a.m., which is when we were thinking of taking a short break. So, we will break until 11.30 a.m. No, sorry—I'm being overly generous, I'm told. We will take a five-minute break, if that's okay, given the workload that we have before us, and we will recommence at 11.20 a.m. Okay, time for a cup of tea. Thank you very much.
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 11:12 ac 11:20.
The meeting adjourned between 11:12 and 11:20.
Okay, group 4, then, relates to registration to vote in local government elections. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 11, in the name of the Minister.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 11 (Julie James, gyda chefnogaeth Caroline Jones).
Amendment 11 (Julie James, supported by Caroline Jones) moved.
I move amendment 11 in the name of the Minister, and call on the Minister to speak to her amendment and the other amendments in this group. Minister.
Thank you, Chair. Amendment 11 removes section 18 of the Bill, which enables the Welsh Ministers to make regulations providing for a database of electoral registration information. In the light of the evidence provided by stakeholders and the comments of committee during the Stage 1 consideration of the Bill, there are some points of detail that need to be further considered to ensure these provisions are appropriately robust. Due to the extensive work that has been created as a consequences of the pandemic, it has not been possible to appropriately address these matters ahead of Stage 2, so I've taken the decision to remove these provisions from the Bill. This does not mean that this work has stopped; we are continuing to explore and develop this work as part of a wider programme of work around further electoral reforms and with a view to making future legislative provision as necessary. Amendments 12, 13 and 14 are consequential to amendment 11 and remove all of sections 19, 20 and 21, which provide for matters relating to the establishment of the database.
I cannot support amendment 264. Electoral law in England and Wales allows a person to be entered onto more than one register if they are resident in different local authority areas. To be clear, owning a second home does not mean a person can vote in elections automatically; they must prove that they are resident in the area. As Members will know, the Representation of the People Act 1983 prescribes what is meant as residency, as well as well-established case law. This allows people, for example students, with close links in different communities to have a say in how those communities are run, as long as they meet the residency criteria. Provided they meet the well-established residency criteria, second home owners should be allowed to vote in local elections in Wales. If they do not meet the residency criteria, they should not be voting in such elections, which is what the law already prescribes. I also believe that this amendment would cause disparity between English and Welsh voters, and I do not wish to see anyone disenfranchised in Wales.
Turning to amendment 232, ensuring the electoral registration system is fit for purpose is one of the key aims of this Bill and, as such, I have included provision around the registration of local government electors with that application. This would allow local authorities to use data-matching functions to automatically add new electors to the local government register and support efforts to increase the number of people registered. I therefore do not support this amendment.
I also cannot support amendments 171 and 172. I believe voters should be given a choice about how their information is used. Some may wish their details to be excluded from the edited register. As such, the provisions as drafted will allow a person to make their wishes known to the ERO. This is in line with current practice. Amendments 171 and 172 would remove this choice.
I cannot support amendment 224. The Welsh Government provisions around registration of local government electors without application should be commenced by Order at a future date. Ahead of bringing into force these provisions, we will work with electoral administrators and key stakeholders to develop appropriate and robust proposals in relation to the matters this amendment seeks to address and put in place any necessary safeguards that ensure that electors are confident their information is being used in the safest and most appropriate way, with their full knowledge.
Amendment 1 removes reference to the provision for a database of electoral registration information in the overview in Part 1 of the Bill, and is consequential on amendments 11, 12, 13 and 14. I do not support the principle upon which amendment 227 is made. I believe the electoral provisions in the Bill provide for the long overdue reform and simplification of our electoral system and provide us with the opportunity to modernise many aspects of the system.
I do not support amendment 256, for the same reasons I set out in relation to amendment 264. Diolch, Cadeirydd.
Diolch, Minister. I call on Delyth Jewell to speak.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. We've tabled amendments 256 and 264 to prohibit second home owners from voting in areas where they have a second home. The powers to impose additional council tax and the prospect of further powers over second homes on the way, with these happening we don't want to see any gaming of the electoral system by voters switching their electoral registration to the area of their second home to influence these policies, only then to see residents switch back to another area. The fact that local elections across the UK do not take place on the same day could potentially mean people switching their vote, and this would undermine the principle of equality. I've heard what the Minister says, but I would argue that democracy means one vote per person, not one vote per home that you own. So, I will be putting these amendments to the vote. Diolch, Cadeirydd.
Diolch, Delyth. I call on Caroline Jones to speak.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. I'm in agreement with Julie James, the Minister for housing. I disagree with Delyth Jewell in saying that you can't have a vote. You are paying council tax and therefore I think democracy prevails. Diolch, Cadeirydd.
Diolch, Caroline. I call on Mark Isherwood to speak.
Diolch. Again, I oppose Delyth Jewell's approach because this, for example, could capture students and a variety of other unintended persons, and remove the right for a person to choose which of their homes they consider to be their primary residence.
Before I speak to my amendment, could I ask for the Minister to clarify why, in her amendment 11 and consequent amendments 12, 13 and 14, this provision couldn't be retained for future implementation in this Bill? Stakeholders such as the Electoral Reform Society Cymru, the Welsh Local Government Association and the Electoral Commission were generally supportive of the provisions to modernise voting registration by establishing an electoral database. However, we do recognise that the COVID-19 pandemic has impacted on the resources of local authorities and those of the Welsh Government. So, we would like this provision to be reinstated when resources allow, but, again, I seek the Minister's response as to why a provision couldn't be retained in this Bill to enable that to happen when, hopefully, better times are with us.
In terms of our own amendments 171, 172 and 224, these seek to amend the provisions relating to registration without application simply to ensure that individuals registering in this way are placed on the closed or full electoral register, rather than the open or public register. These amendments seek to respond to concerns about the current provision included within the Bill that means that people who are registered without application are placed on the open register. Academics Toby James and Paul Bernal from the University of East Anglia argued that,
'The edited register is made freely available for purchase to companies and third parties with no restrictions on its use. It serves no purpose for the running of the election...It is likely that citizens will know little about how their data is used in this way. Information about the Welsh electorate would therefore be for sale without their active consent. We would therefore propose that the Bill is amended so that automatically registered citizens are not added to the edited register by default.'
Cytûn, Churches Together in Wales, stated that the current requirements of writing to notify the individual of automatic registration is not sufficient, as many people in such circumstances do not respond to official correspondence. Furthermore, Cytûn raised a specific concern about the current registration provision, stating that by placing people on the open register this may impact on some individuals who have purposefully chosen not to register for fear of being identified by a violent former partner or others who may wish them harm. As such, our amendment seeks to give people the option of being placed on the open register, rather than being automatically placed on it. I seek to move our amendments accordingly.
Okay, thank you, Mark. Are there other Members who wish to speak? No, then I call on the Minister to reply to the debate.
Thank you, Chair. In answer to Mark Isherwood, we are removing the provisions because we accept that they need further work. There was much conversation around the fact that the provisions needed much work. We will be able to fully develop the provisions and ensure that there are no unintended consequences. There are a number of electoral arrangements that require further work in consultation with the various organisations that Mark Isherwood mentioned, and we would very much like to work with them on making sure that we have the right provisions at the right time. Unfortunately, these provisions are not those, and we think it's safer, therefore, to remove them from the Bill.
The rest, Chair, of the arguments put, I think, I addressed in my opening remarks. So, I haven't got anything further to add. Diolch.
Okay, thank you, Minister. The question is, then, that amendment 11 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Object. We will take a vote. So, the question is that amendment 11 be agreed. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Support.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 11, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 11: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 12 (Julie James, gyda chefnogaeth Caroline Jones).
Amendment 12 (Julie James, supported by Caroline Jones) moved.
I move amendment 12, in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 12 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Support.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 12, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 12: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 13 (Julie James, gyda chefnogaeth Caroline Jones).
Amendment 13 (Julie James, supported by Caroline Jones) moved.
I move amendment 13, in the name of the Minister. The question is whether amendment 13 is agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Object. Okay, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 13, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 13: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 14 (Julie James, gyda chefnogaeth Caroline Jones).
Amendment 14 (Julie James, supported by Caroline Jones).
I move amendment 14, in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 14 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Support.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 14, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 14: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 264?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 264 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 264 (Delyth Jewell) moved.
Yes, please, Cadeirydd.
Okay. The question is that amendment 264 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood.
Against.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 264, there voted one in favour, five against, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 264: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Caroline, do you wish to move amendment 232?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 232 (Caroline Jones).
Amendment 232 (Caroline Jones) moved.
I do, please, Chair.
If amendment 232 is agreed, amendments 171 and 172 fall. The questions is that amendment 232 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
For.
Huw Irancca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 232, there voted one in favour, four against, one abstention, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 232: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 171?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 171 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 171 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
I do.
The question is that amendment 171 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 171, there voted one in favour, four against, one abstention, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 171: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 172?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 172 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 172 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
I do.
The question is that amendment 172 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 172, there voted one in favour, four against, one abstention, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 172: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Okay, group 5 relates to eligibility to stand at local government elections. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 173 in the name of Mark Isherwood. I call on Mark Isherwood to move amendment 173 and speak to this amendment and other amendments in this group. Mark.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 173 (Mark Isherwood, gyda chefnogaeth Caroline Jones).
Amendment 173 (Mark Isherwood, supported by Caroline Jones) moved.
Diolch. Amendment 173 seeks to remove the current provision that extends the right to stand in local government elections to all foreign citizens, regardless of citizenship. My earlier amendments explained—and I won't repeat them—why we need to be introducing at least a minimum residency requirement in accordance with international good practice and at least reflect the wishes of the public. I argued in group 1 amendments that most countries that allow non-citizens to vote have a minimum residency requirement and, as such, we believe that voting rights should be attached to a person's residency or citizenship. Logically, we also believe this extends to standing for election. For example, I referred to New Zealand earlier, where people must have lived in the country continually for 12 months to be eligible to vote. But in New Zealand, people cannot stand for election, at national or local level, unless they are a New Zealand citizen. Currently, Irish and Commonwealth citizens with indefinite leave to remain in the UK can stand for election in UK elections, but this Bill would enable all so-called foreign citizens legally resident in Wales to vote and stand in local government elections, irrespective of period of residency. We consider this as a step too far, which will command very little public support and, potentially and evidentially, could cause harm rather than good.
Then, on 174, it's a compromise amendment, given that our amendments 157 and 158 were not supported. So, in accordance with my previous amendments, referring to international good practice regarding minimum periods of residency, amendment 174 is a compromise amendment, which inserts a new section defining a minimum residency requirement of three years for qualifying foreign citizens to be eligible to vote in local government elections and alters the provisions of section 23 of the Bill—'Qualification for election and holding office as a member of a local authority in Wales'—to insert a new section defining a minimum residency requirement of three years for qualifying foreign citizens to be eligible to vote in local government elections. This should help to ensure that a political right to vote in our elections is extended to everyone who's made Wales their long-term home.
Amendment 175 is a probing amendment that seeks to expand the definition of politically restricted posts that are disqualified from becoming a member of a local authority. This amendment modifies the definition of politically restricted posts in section 2 of the Local Government and Housing Act 1989 by including any person who provides advice on a regular basis to an elected member of the authority. This broadens the current scope of the provision, which refers to giving advice on a regular basis to any member of the executive who is also a member of the authority. The Bill as drafted would allow council staff to stand for their own council without having to resign first. However, our amendment clarifies and ensures that any officer who has regular contact with and provides advice to elected members, and who may have a significant conflict of interest should they stand for the council that they're employed by, are not able to stand for election without resigning first. We therefore seek a revised definition of politically restricted posts in order to facilitate the effective functioning of local government where officers serve both executive members and/or other members and many are required to work closely with elected members in their roles as both ward representatives and members of council scrutiny committees. Therefore, as I say, it's a probing amendment because we feel that we'd like to explore further—particularly before Stage 3—how the definition of politically restricted posts could address the concerns and potential conflicts of interest I've highlighted.
Okay, Mark. Thank you. I call on Caroline Jones, then, to speak.
Diolch, Gadeirydd. I have nothing other to add. Thank you.
Okay. Thank you, Caroline. Are there any other Members who wish to speak? I see no Members wishing to speak. I call on the Minister, then, to speak.
Thank you, Chair. I cannot support amendment 173. The Welsh Government believes that the extension of the franchise to qualifying foreign citizens should extend to those eligible citizens being able to stand for office. We recognise that standing for office requires a person to have a strong connection with and commitment to the communities they serve, and such a connection is an inherent part of the test of qualification to stand for office in section 79 of the Local Government Act 1972. This need for a person to have a strong connection with an area is also provided for under a requirement that any qualifying foreign citizens standing for local government office must either not require leave to enter or remain in the UK or have been granted indefinite leave to remain as set out by the Immigration Act 1971, or are treated as such by law.
I also cannot support amendment 174. The criteria for the eligibility of foreign citizens to stand for election at principal councils and town and community councils is on the face of the Bill. I do not agree there is a need for anything further. There are no UK residency requirements placed on any other category of candidate for local elections in Wales. I do not believe it is appropriate to require a qualifying foreign citizen to meet additional requirements when, for example, a Commonwealth citizen may stand as long as they are 18 years of age and living and working within the local authority area they wish to represent.
I cannot support amendment 234. Section 24, which this amendment seeks to remove, relates to disqualification for election and being a member of a local authority and provides for essential reforms to the current disqualification system. These provisions insert new sections into the Local Government Act 1972, specifically in relation to Wales. These replace the existing disqualification provisions and include disqualification on the grounds of being subject to a bankruptcy restrictions order, a debt relief restrictions order, and the notification requirements of or an order under Part 2 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003.
Amendment 15 is a technical amendment to ensure that a person is also enabled to act in the office of member of the local authority if he or she has made an appeal or application of the kind mentioned in new section 80A(3) and (4), namely an appeal or application in respect of the conviction, finding or order to which the disqualification relates.
Amendment 16 is a minor amendment to remove a reference to deputy chair in section 80C(2)(a) as this office does not exist under the Welsh local government regime.
I cannot support amendment 175. I do not want more people to stand for election to councils in Wales—. I want more people to stand for elections to councils in Wales—apologies, Chair—I want more people to stand for election to councils in Wales, so I could not without good reason support a provision that sought to bar more people from standing for election. The amendment would extend the categories of politically restricted posts by including any postholder who gives advice on a regular basis to any member of an authority in addition to those who advise on a regular basis the full council, the executive and committees. The list of politically restricted posts in each authority already runs quite deep. It can include residential home managers, service managers, the music support service manager and the regulatory services manager. If a council officer were called upon to provide advice on a regular basis to an individual councillor outside the mechanisms of full council or committee meetings, I doubt that the task would be given to anyone who did not have the level of responsibility of the postholders already included in the politically restricted list. So, I do not support the amendment on principle and it would not achieve its aim; it would merely create more bureaucracy. I urge the committee to reject amendment 175.
I also cannot support amendment 235. Currently under the Local Government Act 1972, a person who has previously been an elected member is not able to take up paid office for 12 months after their tenure has ended. Section 25 of the Bill removes that requirement. Under section 25, a member of a local authority in Wales will however still be disqualified from being a paid officer for the duration of his or her tenure. Session 25 allows flexibility for those who cease to be a member of a local authority. They will no longer be disqualified from taking up paid office within that local authority for 12 months after they have left office. These provisions are an important step in supporting diversification of representation. It will encourage a wider range of candidates to stand at local elections, as they will be free to take up paid office within the authority once their tenure as a representative ends. Diolch.
Diolch, Minister. I call on Mark Isherwood to reply to the debate. Mark. We're unable to hear you at the moment, Mark.
I completely agree with the Minister that we must seek to broaden the numbers and range of candidates standing for election at local government level and every level. We also agree that it is right that council staff should be able to stand for their own council without having to resign first. The purpose of our amendment is to broaden the definition, which currently is very narrow, and only relates to giving advice on a regular basis to members of the executive, and it should incorporate officers who give advice on a regular basis to all members of the authority, reflecting the fact that unlike parliaments—including the Senedd—there isn't a formal separation of power between executive and legislature. The same officers who service the elected executive service the broader membership of a council, and if an officer stood unsuccessfully for a political party, and was known to be politically active for that party and to hold that party's set of views and principles, it would be very difficult for those officers to then support impartially and advise impartially members who were members of different parties. I don't seek to impute the impartiality of any officer in the delivery of their own roles, but it is inevitable, and we've all seen this in practice, that tensions could arise that could give rise to, worst-case scenario, complaints and could certainly compromise the effective working relationship with the council. So, this would not capture all; I'm not even saying who it should capture. What I'm seeking to do is explore how we could broaden this to ensure that this addresses all officers who provide regular support and advice to all elected members.
In terms of the votes for foreign citizens, I can only repeat—or I won't repeat—what I've already said. Our proposal does reflect international good practice. It will command far more public support than the current proposal risks compromising and, yes, I recognise and I addressed earlier the situation with Commonwealth citizens and, of course, citizens of the Republic of Ireland, but there are strong historic reasons, including, as I said, the Representation of the People Act 1918 for that. That doesn't mean we should compromise our approach to this now in seeking to broaden this without bringing in minimum residency requirements as proposed. So, I stand by our amendments. Thank you.
Thank you. Okay, Mark, so I'll take that as an indication that you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 173. Okay. If amendment 173 is agreed, amendment 174 falls. The question is that amendment 173 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Mark Isherwood.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 173, there voted two in favour, four against, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 173: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 174?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 174 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 174 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
I do.
The question is that amendment 174 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 174, there voted one in favour, four against, with one abstention, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 174: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Caroline, do you wish to move amendment 234?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 234 (Caroline Jones).
Amendment 234 (Caroline Jones) moved.
I do, Gadeirydd.
Okay. If amendment 234 is agreed, amendments 15, 16 and 94 fall. The question is that amendment 234 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Gwrthwynebu.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 234, there voted one in favour, four against, one abstention, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 234: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 15 (Julie James).
Amendment 15 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 15 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 15 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
And I vote for. Therefore, in relation to amendment 15, there voted five in favour, one abstention, and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 15: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 16 (Julie James).
Amendment 16 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 16 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 16 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 16, there voted five in favour with one abstention, and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 16: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Group 6 relates to establishing corporate joint committees and their functions. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 94 in the name of the Minister.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 94 (Julie James).
Amendment 94 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 94 in the name of the Minister, and call on the Minister to speak to this amendment and other amendments in this group. Minister.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. The amendments I've tabled in this group refine and clarify the processes Part 5 puts in place to enable the establishment and amending of corporate joint committees or CJCs. There are no substantive changes to the rationale and policy intent proposed in the Part at introduction; they remain the same. [Interruption.] Excuse me. They remain the same. For example, the functions set out in section 79, which Welsh Ministers can specify are exercised by a CJC without request to do so, remains substantially the same as the introduction. Amendments have been tabled, however, to provide more detail on the nature of some of these functions, in particular clarifying, for the purposes of legal certainty, how they will exercise the function of economic development, as well as consequential amendments to enable the policy intent of these functions being exercisable by CJCs to be achieved.
Three sections have been replaced in full: amendment 105 replaces section 77, amendment 107 replaces section 79, and amendments 120 to 124 replace section 82. There are also a range of other changes, which have been made throughout the Part, to ensure that the refinements that have been made are of a cohesive nature.
Section 79 already provides that the function of preparing a strategic development plan under the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004 can be specified as a function of a CJC. A set of amendments has been tabled to give further clarity and effect to this intent. This includes amendments 145 and 155, which insert a new Schedule providing for amendments to the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act, which repeal the powers of the Welsh Ministers to establish strategic planning panels and strategic planning areas and provide for the granting of functions relating to the preparation of strategic development plans to certain CJCs.
Amendment 94 is consequential on the repeal by amendment 155 of the powers of the Welsh Ministers to establish strategic planning panels. The amendment removes the reference in section 24 of the Bill to be inserted into the Local Government Act 1972 a disqualification of those in paid office who are employed or under the direction of a strategic planning panel. Since strategic planning panels will not exist, it is right that we remove this provision.
Amendments 152 to 154 are also consequential on amendment 155 and remove provision in Schedule 2 in relation to consequential amendments as a result of the provisions in Part 1. Given the repeal of strategic planning panels, these consequential amendments no longer need to be made. Part 5 provides for a situation where strategic planning panels had already been established and the function of preparing and SDP would need to be capable of being transferred from them to CJCs. As none have or now will be established, the provisions dealing with this scenario in 77(5) and section 79(5) have been omitted through amendments 105 and 107.
Amendment 105 amends section 77 so that principal councils will no longer be able to request that regulations establishing a CJC include the function of preparing an SDP. This is on the grounds that the intention is CJCs established by Welsh Ministers will be given the function of preparing an SDP and there will be no case for having additional SDPs on other footprints.
Amendment 107 clarifies that there is no strategic development function in addition to the preparation of an SDP by removing section 79(3)(b).
Turning to national parks, as local planning authorities, it is important that national park authorities play a key role in the preparation of any SDP in their area. As part of the Stage 2 proceedings, I'm bringing forward amendments to section 81 that make it explicit that, where the function of preparing a strategic development plan is specified in joint committee regulations and any part of a national park is in the area of the corporate joint committee, the regulations must make provision about the membership of the committee by the national park authority for that national park.
In the light of this requirement, a series of consequential amendments have been tabled—amendments 104, 106, 109 and 110—which ensure that national park authorities are consulted on draft joint committee regulations, both requested and unrequested, and require that they are notified of the intent to make any regulations specifying the function of preparing a strategic development plan.
I agree that it is important that the functions of a corporate joint committee are clear and there is no scope for them to stray into or override functions of a national park authority. However, I do not support amendment 214. A corporate joint committee will only be able to exercise those functions that are provided to it through regulations. The amendments that I have put forward on the functions of the corporate joint committees clarify the scope of their functions and provide the assurance being sought that a corporate joint committee could not impinge on the functions of a national park authority.
The amendments also ensure that national parks will be members of a corporate joint committee for the purposes of exercising the strategic planning function. Any impact of the decisions of a corporate joint committee on the statutory functions of a national park, positive or negative, can be taken into account by the national park authority as part of their role in the CJC decision-making process.
Turning, then, Chair, to economic well-being functions, the Bill currently refers to economic development as a function that Ministers can specify a CJC exercises. I have tabled a set of amendments that provide more detail on what this means in practice and ensure that appropriate economic development functions can be conferred on CJCs where appropriate.
Amendment 112 provides a broadly equivalent or similar function to the well-being power under section 2 of the Local Government Act 2000 that principal councils are currently able to exercise but which will be repealed by the Bill in relation to principal councils and replaced by a general power of competence. It will enable a CJC that has been granted the function to do anything that it considers is likely to promote or improve the economic well-being of its area.
I've already mentioned amendment 107. Section 79 is amended accordingly by amendment 107 to refer to the economic well-being function rather than economic development. Amendments 102 and 105 to sections 75(1) and 77 enable principal councils to ask that a CJC being established by request be granted the economic well-being function, as well as those established under section 79.
Welsh Ministers will be able to place limitations on the exercise of the economic well-being function through either joint committee regulations under section 81 or through regulations under section 83. Amendment 112 makes explicit provision for these regulations through imposed limitations.
Turning, then, Chair, to transport, as the intention is that the CJC will be used as the vehicle for regional collaboration on transport, amendment 145 and the Schedule in amendment 155 repeals the power of the Welsh Ministers to establish joint transport authorities. Other technical amendments to provisions on establishing CJCs are also included.
There are a number of minor technical amendments that have been tabled to refine the provisions in Part 5 around the processes for establishing CJCs with or without a request. Requiring that functions always be exercised in respect of the principal areas of all of the relevant councils is unnecessarily constraining. A CJC may, for example, have good reason and consensus for doing something in only part of its area, and so amendments 105 and 107 remove this requirement. In contrast, it would be helpful to enable a function of a principal council to be specified in regulations by reference to a particular activity or activities, particularly where the function involved may be very broad. Amendments 105 and 107 now provide for this for both requested and non-requested regulations. The language around the way in which a function is specified in regulations has been changed slightly. For technical reasons and consistency, amendments 105 and 107 provide for functions to be exercised by the CJC, rather than transferred to it. On reflection, there is also no need to specify the contents of an application to establish the CJC and amendment 103 removes that requirement.
Amendments 97, 98, 99 and 100 make consequential changes to section 73, which sets out the terms used in the Part. Amendment 111 will enable a consultation undertaken before section 80 has come into force to satisfy the requirement to consult before making regulations under section 79. The intention is to consult as soon as we are able to respond to the desire from local government to help shape the content of the regulations. Section 82 is also being amended by amendment 108 to remove any doubt that a single consultation can take place on joint committee regulations, rather than separate consultations and proposals and then a draft of the regulations. Amendment and revocation of the joint committee regulations are also important. The provisions for amendment and revocation have therefore been expanded to make the process by which regulations will be amended or revoked clearer.
Amendments 120 to 124 replace the current section 82 with five separate sections dealing with each aspect of the process. These mirror the provisions for establishing CJCs and provide assurance that there is a clear and transparent process that must be followed. They cannot be changed arbitrarily by Welsh Ministers.
And then moving to the remaining amendments in this group, I recognise and agree with the intent of involving people in the work of corporate joint committees. However, I do not agree that amendment 213 is appropriate. The Bill sets out the framework for establishing corporate joint committees, but it is the regulations that will detail how a corporate joint committee should operate. I therefore think it more appropriate for the issues raised by the amendment to be considered as part of the preparation of the corporate joint committee regulations. I also do not believe that the amendment is necessary. It is my intention, through the regulations, to ensure that corporate joint committees are subject to the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and to the public participation duties contained in Part 3 of the Bill. This will provide for the requirement for meaningful involvement being sought.
I do not agree with the proposal that sections 79 and 80 be removed. I see this as a key element of this Part. My ambition in creating a corporate joint committee model was not just as an enhanced vehicle for local government collaboration, but also as a single consistent vehicle for this collaboration. I believe that this ambition is shared by local government also. My aim is to rationalise provision that already exists in legislation for single-purpose collaboration, such as joint transport authorities and strategic planning panels, into a single regional arrangement that can look at these connected functions holistically. In order to do this, it's important that Welsh Ministers have the ability to create corporate joint committees to replace these existing legislative structures. I have been clear that this is a very limited power restricted to areas where regional working arrangements already exist in legislation or in practice. Section 79 simply enables us to consolidate them.
There are areas where there is consensus that working at this scale makes sense, aligning economic development, transport and land-use planning approaches to develop successful regional economies and encourage local growth. I therefore strongly urge rejection of amendment 282, and on this basis I also propose that amendments 281, 283, 286 and 287 are rejected, as they are consequential to amendment 282. Diolch, Chair.
Thank you, Minister. I call on Delyth Jewell to speak.
Diolch, Gadeirydd. We've tabled our amendments that the Minister was just referring to at the end of her contribution there to ensure that councils cannot be forced into a corporate joint committee, and that they should be voluntary. I note the Minister's closing remarks that consensus working is important and the amendments that we've tabled are in that spirit. I would respectfully disagree with some of what the Minister said in those closing remarks, in that I accept, obviously, that this provision is meant to be used sparingly, but, from my understanding, not all representatives in local government are in favour of this. The amendments that we've put down reflect our position as a party. We think that it would be far more appropriate if the corporate joint committees are voluntary and that that would be a better way of ensuring consensus working in local government. So, I've listened to what the Minister said, but we will be putting those amendments to a vote. Diolch.
Okay. Diolch, Delyth. I call on Mark Isherwood to speak.
Thank you. If I could just start with one question to the Minister, we're content with the overwhelming majority of the Welsh Government's amendments, but I'd just like clarity, if I could, on the Welsh Government's amendment 103, which seeks to remove the requirement for applications by principal councils to establish a corporate joint committee to specify the activities that the CJC will carry out. As the Minister may be aware, there are concerns that this may lead to 'back-door council mergers' if corporate joint committees are able to increasingly take on the powers of local authorities, should their functions not be specified in application. So, I'd be grateful if the Minister could comment on that and advise how she envisages this concern would be addressed to prevent this effective back-door acquisition of power.
Moving to our own amendments, amendment 213 seeks to ensure that local people and local community-based organisations are involved with the decision-making processes of corporate joint committees. This and future amendments, which I won't refer to yet, are about seeking to embed true co-production, true community engagement and involvement—asset-based development, strength-based development—into this Bill so that it aligns with the intent of other Welsh Government legislation, but strengthens its delivery where, sadly, codes of practice and otherwise are not driving the culture change required to deliver in these areas. We do hear a lot now of positive language from members of all parties about issues such as co-production, community empowerment, citizen engagement, but in reality, it's sparse on the ground and it's only, generally, local social entrepreneurs and groups grown from within communities driving the good practice, without, often, the support of public bodies.
Section 79(3) sets out that Welsh Ministers may mandate the creation of corporate joint committees for the purpose of improving education, strategic planning, transport and economic development. However, stakeholders have raised concerns about the lack of provisions for local involvement with corporate joint committees. For example, Community Housing Cymru shared concerns with the committee regarding the limited provision for CJC accountability arrangements, which, they said, were at odds with the Bill's commitments to enhance access to, and participation in, local decision making. So, this amendment seeks to embed the principles of involvement—not mere consultation or participation, but involvement—within this Bill. Involvement approaches work with people at earlier stages, helping to identify issues and potential solutions, and supporting them to remain involved, right throughout the design, implementation and evaluation processes. These aren't a cost; they are an investment that will save both financial capital and human capital further down the road.
Amendment 214 inserts a provision to ensure that if a corporate joint committee is established that includes an area designated as a national park, this is not to impact on the statutory functions of the national park authority. In written evidence to the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee, National Parks Wales noted that corporate joint committees will have a number of functions, including transport, strategic planning, economic development and improving education. National Parks Wales therefore write that
'there is obvious potential for uncertainty, ambiguity and unintended consequences not only for the management of National Parks and how such will impact on our duties and purposes in terms of strategic planning and economic development but also in the effective delivery of its duties by the CJCs.'
As such, National Parks Wales state that their preferred option is for the Bill to be clarified to ensure that if a CJC is established that includes an area designated as a national park, this is not to impact on the statutory functions of the national park authority. Our amendment seeks to deliver this in order to meet that call. Thank you.
Thank you, Mark. Are there other Members who wish to speak? No. Okay. I call on the Minister to reply to the debate.
Thank you, Chair. I've listened really carefully to the views expressed by committee members, and I do remain of the view that amendment 213 is unnecessary and the issues it raises can be dealt with in the CJC regulations. I'll do my best to address Mark's point; I'm not sure I entirely followed it. It's been our intention throughout that in a very limited number of areas, where there already is either the power of a Welsh Minister to direct a regional collaboration or there is large collaboration in practice on the ground, those are mandated through this mechanism so that we don't have a plethora of different arrangements. But this is very much a vehicle for local government. This is for local government to decide how they manage and organise their regional arrangements and collaborations, and so we are trying not to be overly prescriptive in any other area, Mark. I think that's what you were asking me. And so, what we're saying is that other than in the areas in which the Welsh Government says a CJC must be established, and they're very limited in scope, local authorities can ask for any other area to be included in a CJC as they see fit.
I also want to emphasise to the committee that this mandates the Welsh Ministers as well. One of the big problems with the regional collaboration across Wales has been that, where it's 'voluntary', people can remove themselves from it, or rejoin, or Welsh Ministers can just decide not to support it, or whatever, and that has made for volatility in the sector right across the piece. So, while we absolutely accept that there are large numbers of regional arrangements that work really well, whilst they're voluntary, there's always the danger that a member council will simply remove itself from that arrangement and destabilise the entire piece. So, this mandates both the Welsh Ministers and the local authority partners to continue to collaborate in that way and gives certainty for all partners in a way that hasn't been achieved before.
This is absolutely not about making local authorities do things they didn't want to do already. One of the reasons that we've structured the Bill the way it's structured is that we wish to co-produce the regulations and guidance alongside those local authorities in each region as they have chosen which collaborations to put forward, so that we can reflect local arrangements very much. This is not one size fits all, every area of Wales looks the same; this is co-produced in consultation with the partners.
The CJCs as established, Mark, will then have all of the duties that a local authority would have, because they're collaborations of local authorities, including in terms of public participation, involvement and so on. So, we do not think that the amendments that you're proposing are necessary. We will be ensuring in both the co-produced guidance and the regulations that they exist in that form. So, we basically don't think it should be on the face of the Bill.
So, just to be clear, then, we think that—just going through, I've already said that I thought amendment 213 was unnecessary for that reason. We also think 214 is unnecessary, and the arrangements we've put forward provide the assurance for the scope of the functions. We remain of the view it's important that Welsh Ministers are able to create the CJCs without a request from principal councils in a limited number of areas where there is a clear case for doing so and we can support the rationalisation of regional arrangements that has consistently been sought. So, I therefore continue to urge Members to reject amendments 281, 282, 283, 286 and 287. So, I therefore, Chair, ask members of the committee to support the amendments put forward in my name, particularly amendment 94, but also the remaining amendments, when voting takes place. Diolch.
Diolch yn fawr, Minister. I then, on that basis, move amendment 94 in the name of the Minister. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden. Dawn.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Without hesitation, support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 94, we have four in favour, two abstentions, and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 94: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 175?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 175 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 175 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
I do.
The question is that amendment 175 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 175, we have one in favour, four against, one abstention, and that amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 175: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Caroline, do you wish to move amendment 235?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 235 (Caroline Jones).
Amendment 235 (Caroline Jones) moved.
I do.
Okay, the question is that amendment 235 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Object.] Okay. We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 235, there voted one in favour, four against, one abstention, and that amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 235: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Group 7 relates to election pilots. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 17 in the name of the Minister.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 17 (Julie James, gyda chefnogaeth Caroline Jones).
Amendment 17 (Julie James, supported by Caroline Jones) moved.
I move amendment 17 in the name of the Minister and call on the Minister to speak to this amendment and the other amendments in this group. Minister.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. Amendment 17 removes section 26, which provides the Welsh Ministers with discretion to direct an electoral pilot scheme be undertaken. I've listened carefully to the discussion on electoral pilots, and I do not believe that it's an appropriate time to pursue a programme of pilots. This is because of the considerable pressure upon electoral management teams implementing other electoral changes such as canvass reform, and also because, as a Government, we have not been able to make the preparations we would have done to implement these provisions because of the pandemic. I have therefore decided to remove this provision from the Bill entirely. There is existing provision in other legislation that enables pilot schemes to take place at the request of local authorities. This will remain unchanged, and a future Government can consider whether it wishes to pursue the issue of directing pilots as part of a Bill on electoral administration.
Amendment 18 removes section 27 on guidance about election pilot schemes as it has been decided to remove the provision from the Bill. Amendment 2 removes the reference to provision for Welsh Ministers to direct electoral pilot schemes in the overview of Part 1 of the Bill. Diolch.
Okay. Thank you, Minister. Are there other Members who wish to speak? No. Well, there is no debate to reply to, Minister, unless you wish to add anything. No? Okay. The question, then, is that amendment 17 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Then amendment 17 is agreed.
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.
Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 18 (Julie James, gyda chefnogaeth Caroline Jones).
Amendment 18 (Julie James, supported by Caroline Jones) moved.
I move amendment 18 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 18 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Then amendment 18 is agreed.
Object.
Oh, sorry, Mark. I thought—
It was my fault, I apologise.
No problem. Okay. That's on amendment 18, isn't it?
Yes, okay. So, we then move to a vote on amendment 18. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Support.
Mark Isherwood.
Against.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 18, there voted five in favour, one against, and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 18: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 0
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Group 8 relates to returning officers. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 236 in the name of Caroline Jones. I call on Caroline Jones to move amendment 236 and speak to this amendment and other amendments in this group. Caroline.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 236 (Caroline Jones).
Amendment 236 (Caroline Jones) moved.
I move this amendment in my name, Chair. I do not wish to speak on this amendment. Thank you.
Okay, thank you, Caroline. I call on Delyth Jewell to speak.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. Rydyn ni wedi gosod y gwelliant yma i sicrhau bod y returning officers yn gorfod cydymffurfio â'r safonau iaith Gymraeg. Mae hyn oherwydd yr egwyddor y dylai Cymru fod yn wlad lle mae'r ddwy iaith swyddogol yn cael eu trin yn gyfartal, ac mae Comisiynydd yr Iaith Gymraeg wedi mynegi rhai pryderon y gall y safonau gael eu gwanhau, ac rŷn ni felly wedi gosod gwelliannau i wneud yn siŵr dyw hynny ddim yn digwydd.
Thank you, Chair. We tabled this amendment to ensure that returning officers do have to comply with Welsh language standards. This is because of the principle that Wales should be a nation where both official languages are treated equally, and the Welsh Language Commissioner has expressed some concerns that the standards may be weakened. We therefore tabled amendments to ensure that that doesn't happen.
Diolch yn fawr, Delyth. Are there other Members who wish to speak? No. I call on the Minister to speak.
Thank you, Chair. I cannot support amendment 236. The purpose of these provisions is to clarify the law around the payment of personal fees to returning officers for the holding of local government elections. There is no legal basis upon which these payments are made, and these provisions clarify this and explicitly state that personal fees are not to be paid. It is not publicly acceptable that this practice still takes place, particularly in the times when ordinary council workers are subject to such restraint.
The Welsh Government fully supports the principle behind amendment 265, and it is our intention to address the concerns that lie behind it. This Bill already contains provision to improve the accessibility of electoral documents, including in Welsh, and, separately, I am bringing forward regulations to exclude Welsh and English language translation costs from candidates' expenditure limits. I would like to continue discussions with the returning officers and the electoral community as to how we can collectively ensure that the candidate and voter experience of devolved elections is the same in Welsh as it is in English. Part of ensuring this may well be that returning officers are made subject to a number of Welsh language standards. Therefore, I support the principle of considering this issue in future legislation on electoral administration, but not its inclusion in this Bill, because I believe it is part of a wider piece of work that needs to be undertaken. Therefore, I call on the committee to reject amendment 265. Diolch.
Okay. Thank you, Minister. Caroline, did you wish to respond to the debate?
I have no response. Thank you.
No. Okay, Caroline. Thank you. Caroline, do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 236?
I do, Chair.
The question is that amendment 236 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 236, there voted two in favour, four against, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 236: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 265?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 265 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 265 (Delyth Jewell) moved.
I would, though I was pleased with what the Minister said. But, yes, I would like to move it to a vote, please.
Okay, thank you, Delyth. The question is that amendment 265 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 265, there voted one in favour, three against, two abstentions, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 265: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 2
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Group 9 relates to documents relating to local government elections. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 237 in the name of Caroline Jones. I call on Caroline Jones to move amendment 237 and speak to this amendment and other amendments in this group. Caroline.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 237 (Caroline Jones).
Amendment 237 (Caroline Jones) moved.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. I speak to this amendment. I do have sympathy with Mark Isherwood's amendment, but I will be abstaining, for the reasons that I have outlined. However, I do believe that we need greater transparency in all elections and referenda. The fact that digital imprints are not required is a grave oversight that has allowed bad actors and foreign powers to influence our elections. Social media political advertising has become one of the most powerful campaign tools, and yet it is allowed to operate like the wild west. All political advertising should clearly state who paid for it and, unless we want to end up like the US, advertisers cannot hide behind obscure groups set up to endorse a particular party or a candidate. And while I won't be voting on Mark's amendment, I would urge the UK and Welsh Governments to bring forward legislation that enacts this at all elections that take place in Wales. Diolch yn fawr.
Diolch yn fawr, Caroline. I call on Mark Isherwood to speak.
Thank you. Right, documents relating to local—. Amendment 176 seeks to bring the regulations for online paid-for political advertisements in line with printed paid-for political advertisements, such as and including leaflets. This has been drafted in conjunction with Fair Vote UK. The purpose of this amendment is merely to bring the online rules in line with offline regulation. Currently, printed literature such as leaflets require an imprint detailing information about who paid for the material to be promoted. As such, it is important that online paid-for political advertisements are regulated in the same way to improve transparency in political campaigning, and to help voters make better-informed decisions.
Furthermore, digital imprints will help regulators better identify and monitor who is producing election material and enforce the spending rules. For example, the Electoral Commission have said that imprints on digital election material will help them enforce the spending rules, because they will have a clearer picture of who may need to register and submit a spending return after an election or referendum. They state:
'We are not in a position to monitor the truthfulness of campaign claims, online or otherwise. However, changing the law so that digital material has to have an imprint will help voters to assess the credibility of campaign messages. Voters will know who the source is and be more able to decide how credible it is.'
We are advised that such imprints have recently become Westminster Government policy, and the Cabinet Office at UK level have circulated a document that summarises their policy proposals for review. We've also confirmed with Senedd lawyers that this amendment does fall within the scope of this Bill. I will be moving it accordingly.
Okay. Thank you, Mark. Are there other Members who wish to speak? No. Then I call on the Minister to speak.
Thank you, Chair. I'm afraid I cannot support amendment 237. The provisions around translations of documents require that documents are made available in Braille, in languages other than English and Welsh, and are available as graphical representations or by other means that make the documents accessible. This is to support better voter experiences and to make documentation display to voters more accessible. This is an important step in breaking down barriers people face when engaging with our electoral system.
And whilst I have a great deal of sympathy with the principle behind amendment 176, I also cannot support this amendment. The Welsh Government is committed to improving the quality of information presented to voters, and to making clear who is responsible for the information provided. However, I believe that, as social media companies are based across the world, and as social media advertisements cross over the England and Wales border in particular, the most efficient way to tackle this is on a pan-UK basis, where we are not restricted by the Senedd's legislative competence. As such, we will continue to work closely with the UK Government to develop a consistent regime across the jurisdiction that supports providing voters, candidates and political parties with clear information around the origins of political messaging. Diolch.
Thank you, Minister. I call then on Caroline Jones to reply to the debate.
Thank you to everyone who contributed. However, I am disappointed in the Minister's response to the requirement. We are all governed by a spending requirement in elections and, if online activity is not subject to being scrutinised, then I fail to see how we can monitor and do elections properly in Wales if this is not of paramount importance. Spending is of paramount importance. We have to know where everything is coming from, who it's coming from and who is accountable. Thank you.
Okay. Caroline, I take it, then, that you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 237.
I do please, Chair. Thank you.
Okay. The question is that amendment 237 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. We will then move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Mark Isherwood.
Against.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 237, there voted one in favour, five against, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 237: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 176?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 176 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 176 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
I do.
The question is that amendment 176 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Object.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 176, there voted two in favour, three against, one abstention, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 176: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Caroline, do you wish to move amendment 238?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 238 (Caroline Jones).
Amendment 238 (Caroline Jones) moved.
Yes, please, Chair.
The question is that amendment 238 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Mark Isherwood.
Hold one—. Sorry, bear with me, one second.
Two hundred and thirty eight, Mark.
Abstain.
Abstain. And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 238, there voted one in favour, four against, one abstention, and that amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 238: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Caroline, do you wish to move amendment 252?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 252 (Caroline Jones).
Amendment 252 (Caroline Jones) moved.
Yes, please, Chair.
If amendment 252 is agreed, amendments 152, 78, 79, 221, 222, 296, 80, 223, 297, 81, 153, 154, 82, 83, 84 and 222—sorry, 224—fall. The question is that amendment 252 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 252, there voted one in favour, four against, one abstention, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 252: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 152 (Julie James).
Amendment 152 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 152 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 152 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Against.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 152, there voted four in favour, one against, one abstention, and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 152: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 78 (Julie James).
Amendment 78 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 78 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 78 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood. Amendment 78, Mark.
Bear with me, sorry.
I'm a little bit lost as well. [Laughter.]
Amendment 78.
I've got my papers mixed up; I've got my virtual papers mixed up.
Amendment 78, Mark. How do you vote?
Abstain.
Abstain. Okay. And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 78, four voted in favour, one against, one abstention and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 78: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 79 (Julie James).
Amendment 79 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 79 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 79 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
[Inaudible.] Sorry, could you tell me which group this was in?
Three.
This is group 9.
It's in group 3. Right.
And amendment 79.
Group 9. Right.
Group 3.
It was the third debate.
It's group 3, Mark.
Group 3. Sorry. Right.
Sorry, yes. We're on group 9, but amendment—
Amendment 78 are we on?
No, 79.
Next. Right, I support.
Okay, and I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 79, there voted five in favour, one abstention and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 79: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 221?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 221 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 221 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
I do.
The question is that amendment 221 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 221, there voted one in favour, four against, one abstention and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 221: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 222?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 222 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 222 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
I do.
If amendment 222 is agreed, amendment 296 falls. The question is that amendment 222 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 222, there voted one in favour, four against, one abstention and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 222: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 296?
No. Okay. So, the amendment is then not moved. No other Member wishes to move? No.
Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 296 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 296 (Delyth Jewell) not moved.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 80 (Julie James).
Amendment 80 (Julie James) moved.
In that case, we move on, and I move amendment 80 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 80 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 80, there voted five in favour with one abstention and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 80: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 223?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 223 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 223 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
I do.
If amendment 223 is agreed, amendment 297 falls. The question is that amendment 223 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 223, there voted one in favour, four against, one abstention, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 223: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 297?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 297 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 297 (Delyth Jewell) moved.
The question is that amendment 297 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
This was in, please?
Group 2.
Group 2. Oppose.
Against. Right. Okay. And I vote against, therefore in relation to amendment 297, there voted one in favour, four against, one abstention, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 297: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 81 (Julie James).
Amendment 81 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 81 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 81 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour, therefore in relation to amendment 81, there voted five in favour with one abstention and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 81: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 153 (Julie James).
Amendment 153 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 153 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 153 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Which group, please?
Group 6.
One five three: support.
Okay, and I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 153, there voted five in favour with one abstention and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 153: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 154 (Julie James).
Amendment 154 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 154 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 154 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 154, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 154: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 82 (Julie James).
Amendment 82 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 82 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 82 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Can you tell me which group?
Three.
Group 3.
Group 3. Thank you very much, somebody. [Laughter.] Eighty-three: support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 82, there voted five in favour with one abstention, and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 82: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 83 (Julie James).
Amendment 83 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 83 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 83 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 83, there voted five in favour, one abstention, so the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 83: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 84 (Julie James).
Amendment 84 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 84 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 84 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood.
Against.
I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 84, there voted four in favour, with two against, and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 84: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 2, Ymatal: 0
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 224?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 224 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 224 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
I do.
The question is that amendment 224 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 224, there voted one in favour, four against, one abstention and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 224: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Caroline, do you wish to move amendment 226?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 226 (Caroline Jones).
Amendment 226 (Caroline Jones) moved.
I do.
If amendment 226 is agreed, amendments 156 and 255 fall. The question is that amendment 226 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Mark Isherwood.
Which group, which group, which group?
Group 1.
Thank you. Checking. I've got it. Amendment 226, abstain.
Okay, and I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 226, there voted one in favour, four against, one abstention, the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 226: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 156?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 156 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 156 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
I do.
If amendment 156 is agreed, amendment 255 falls. The question is that amendment 156 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 156, there voted two in favour, four against, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 156: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 255?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 255 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 255 (Delyth Jewell) moved.
Yes, please, Cadeirydd.
The question is that amendment 255 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Against.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 255, there voted one in favour, four against, one abstention, and that amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 255: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 1 (Julie James).
Amendment 1 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 1 in the name of the Minister. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 227 falls. The question is that amendment 1 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Can you tell me which group, please?
Four.
Right. Group 4. I'm nearly there, sorry.
Amendment 1—
Amendment 1, abstain. Abstain.
Okay, I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 1, there voted four in favour with two abstentions, and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 1: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
In that case, amendment 227 falls.
Methodd gwelliant 227.
Amendment 227 fell.
And we move on to amendment 256. Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 256?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 256 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 256 (Delyth Jewell) moved.
Yes, please, Cadeirydd.
The question is that amendment 256 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood.
Against.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 256, there voted one in favour with five against, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 256: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 2 (Julie James).
Amendment 2 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 2 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 2 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Which group, please?
Seven.
Group 7.
Group 7. Amendment 2.
Yes, I'm nearly there. I'm afraid my papers don't connect.
It's the election pilots group.
Group 7, election pilots, amendment 2—we're nearly there. Support. Support.
Okay, I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 2, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 2: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Okay, we've come, then, to group 10, but I suggest that we take a lunch break at this stage. That will give us a chance, perhaps, to get our papers in order and proceed accordingly after the lunch break. Okay, we will break, then, until 1.30 p.m.
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 12:54 ac 13:30.
The meeting adjourned between 12:54 and 13:30.
Group 10, then, which relates to the general power of competence. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 266, in the name of Delyth Jewell, and I call on Delyth Jewell to move amendment 266 and speak to this amendment and the other amendments in this group. Delyth.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 266 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 266 (Delyth Jewell) moved.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. Amendment 266 has been tabled to ensure that it's made explicitly clear on the face of the Bill that the general power of competence can be used to promote the Welsh language, and that will be put to a vote at the end of this debate.
Amendment 267 is a probing amendment, and that has been tabled to try to clarify whether the Government intends the power of competence to be used as a tool that local authorities can use to resolve complex referrals and issues. An example would be cases where the ownership of land can't be established or resolved to determine responsibility for maintenance. We're aware of cases where overgrown trees posed a health and safety hazard nearby homes, but the local authority in question felt they lacked the legal powers to resolve the issue. The landowner was a property developer that had gone bust and, therefore, could not be required to take responsibility. On other occasions, particularly with old, unadopted land, sometimes the ownership itself is unclear. So, we're probing here to find out whether the Minister intends for this new power to be used on these occasions, and I'll be interested to hear her response later in the debate. Diolch.
Okay. Diolch, Delyth. Are there other Members who wish to speak? No. Then, I call on the Minister to speak.
Thank you, Chair. Yes, the general power of competence will permit principal councils and eligible community councils to do anything that an individual can do. The general power cannot be used to circumvent existing restrictions. So, if there is a specific restriction on an existing power, then that restriction will also apply to the use of the general power. As long as a council has taken the relevant legal matters into consideration, then exercising the general power for the purposes of promoting the Welsh language is a sound proposition and it is something a council would be able to do. In fact, the general power should enable councils to innovate and develop new solutions for a range of issues.
And while I can see the value of an opportunity for using the general power in the manner this amendment proposes, I do not support amendment 266 and I don't also support amendment 267. Prior to exercising the general power, it will be for a council to ensure that it has considered and taken into account any relevant legal matters including limitations, prohibitions and restrictions, et cetera. Local government lawyers are best placed to consider these matters, and it's not appropriate for us to issue guidance to councils stating they can use the general power in any specific way. Indeed, the whole point of a general power is that they can do anything with it that they aren't prohibitively restricted from. So, I think the amendment inadvertently narrows the power rather than widening it, although I understand the purpose.
Amendment 19 inserts a provision in the Bill enabling the Welsh Ministers to issue guidance on the exercise of the general power of competence for a commercial purpose. Principal councils and eligible community councils are required to have regard to the guidance. The guidance is not intended to advise a council on when or how the general power could be used, as I've just detailed that that's not appropriate. The guidance would specifically relate to exercising the power for a commercial purpose and could provide advice on meeting the conditions set out in section 34, including the requirement that councils establish a company to exercise the power in this way. It's also intended to consult on regulations subjecting the exercising of the general power for a commercial purpose and traditional conditions such as the preparation and agreement of a business case. The guidance would also support councils in implementing the necessary arrangements to comply with requirements of any such regulations.
So, Chair, I hope that's clear. I'll try and say it in more layperson's language once more: effectively, this enables the council to do anything that it's not specifically prohibited from doing. So, any attempt to make it obvious what it's for inadvertently narrows it, because a court would then look at the list of things we've provided and assume that we meant those to be indicative of the use of the power. So, it's deliberately done as widely as possible in order to not do that. So, if that additional explanatory bit helps, then I'm glad to have done it. But we're very keen that the councils have this; they've been asking for it for a very long time and we're delighted to have been able to include it in this Bill.
Diolch, Gweinidog. Delyth Jewell, then, to reply to the debate.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. I welcome what the Minister was saying about supporting the principle behind amendment 266, and I respect that you say that it's not necessary. But, because we still believe that it should be on the face of the Bill, I will be putting that amendment to the vote. The other amendments that I tabled in this group I will not be putting to the vote, because I'd meant them as probing so that we could have that debate so that we could have that clarified and I'm satisfied with what you've said.
Okay, Delyth. So, you wish for amendment 266 to be put.
Yes, please.
Yes, okay. So, the question is that amendment 266 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we move to a vote, then. First of all, Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
I think she said 'abstain'. I'm lip reading.
Abstain. It went off.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
Okay. And I vote against. So, in relation to amendment 266, we have two in favour, three against, one abstention, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 266: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Delyth, I think you indicated that you do not wish to move amendment 267. Is that correct?
That's correct. I don't want to.
Does any other Member wish to move that amendment? No. Then, that amendment is not moved.
Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 267 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 267 (Delyth Jewell) not moved.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 19 (Julie James).
Amendment 19 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 19 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 19 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 19, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 19: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Group 11 relates to eligible community councils. The lead amendment is amendment 177, in the name of Mark Isherwood. I call on Mark to move amendment 177 and speak to this amendment and other amendments in this group—Mark.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 177 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 177 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
Thank you. Amendments 177, 178 and 179 have been drafted to reflect the concerns of the Auditor General for Wales during Stage 1 proceedings, when representatives of the Auditor General for Wales highlighted concerns regarding the use of the unqualified accounts criteria as part of the criteria for an eligible community council to exercise a general power of competence. These were concerns that the committee collectively picked up in their Stage 1 report, and I therefore hope that Members will be consistent in their approach.
The Auditor General for Wales stated that the audit process was not designed to consider the fitness of a council to make decisions in terms of the exercise of its powers. The Auditor General for Wales has instead argued that those community councils that wish to exercise a general power should prepare themselves to ensure that they can exercise a power properly. Providing for the Auditor General for Wales to give such consideration and, indeed, the Bill's current reliance on the Auditor General for Wales's audit opinions, puts the onus on the auditor general to spot ill-equipped councils. It clearly sits awkwardly with the Auditor General for Wales's independence.
Thus, amendment 178 seeks a solution to this by requiring eligible community councils to prepare a strategy for the proper exercise of the power, requiring those community councils and town councils wishing to be eligible do some work themselves to prepare themselves and consult their electorates. It's quite a simple proposal, but it would address very serious concerns and reservations expressed by the auditor general. Thank you.
Okay, thank you. Are there other Members who wish to speak? No. Then, I call on the Minister to speak.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. Amendments 177 and 178 seek to remove the requirement that a community council's two most recent audit opinions from the Auditor General for Wales must be unqualified before it can resolve itself eligible to use the general power of competence. I for one would not be comfortable if a community council with qualified audits in the past two years was able to exercise a general power, and as such do not support this amendment. We need to have confidence in their core systems of financial management and governance. The principle that community councils should prepare for exercising a general power is sensible, however. I do not consider it an appropriate condition for eligibility in and of itself, as the robustness of the strategy for the exercise of the power could not be easily verified, unlike the existing conditions set out in the Bill. The spirit of the amendment, the expectation that community councils consider how to exercise the power properly, will form the basis of the statutory guidance on being eligible for community councils. When debating the previous group of amendments, I gave details of proposed regulations subjecting the exercise to the general power for a commercial purpose to conditions. I intend community councils to also be subject to these regulations.
On balance, I'm content the three conditions in the Bill collectively provide objective and proportionate measures of eligibility, covering democratic governance and professional aspects of a community council, and I call on Members to reject amendments 177 and 178. Amendment 179 is consequential to amendments 177 and 178, and I also call on Members to reject that amendment.
I've also tabled one amendment in this group, amendment 20, which is a technical amendment to the Welsh text to ensure consistency in drafting throughout the Bill. Diolch.
Diolch yn fawr. Mark Isherwood to reply.
Thank you. Well, rather than weaken, this strengthens the eligibility qualifications for town and community councils. As amendment 178 makes clear, it seeks to add to provisions by requiring community councils to prepare a strategy for the proper exercise of the power, as I described, requiring them to be eligible for them to do some work to prepare themselves to consult the electorates. This removes the onus on the AGW, the Auditor General for Wales, to carry out—[Inaudible.]—as he put it, ill-equipped councils, which is not part of his mandate, or potentially her mandate in the future—it is to provide audit functions independently, and, of course, their role as the audit body for Wales will continue.
Regulations are all well and good, but that can lead to huge time delays, and more to the point, regulations, as we all know from hard experience, are too often overlooked by those who are required to implement relevant legislation. Hence, these measures and others need to be on the face of the Bill and not put away in, as some might describe it, the long grass of regulations. So, I will be seeking to move these amendments.
Okay. The question, then, is that amendment 177 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote, then. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 177, there voted one in favour, four against, with one abstention, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 177: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 20 (Julie James).
Amendment 20 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 20 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 20 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 20, we have five in favour, one abstention, and the amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 20: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 178? I think you've indicated that you do.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 178 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 178 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
I do.
The question is that amendment 178 be agreed. Does any member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 178, there voted one in favour, four against, one abstention. The amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 178: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 179 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 179 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
The question is that amendment 179 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 179, there voted one in favour, four against, one abstention. The amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 179: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Group 12 relates to public participation. The lead amendment is amendment 180 in the name of Mark Isherwood. I call on Mark to move amendment 180 and speak to his amendment and other amendments in this group. Mark.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 180 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 180 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
Thank you. Well, most of our amendments in this group will determine whether this is ultimately a people's Bill or a legislators' and Government Bill. Most of our amendments in this group are to embed the principles of co-production and asset-based community development, which so many use the terminology of, but clearly fail to implement, within the Bill, and therefore into the delivery of public involvement strategies, as well as the design and delivery of public services.
Earlier, the Minister referred to co-producing things between Welsh Government and local government. Co-production isn't about breaking down the barriers just between public service providers, it is essentially about breaking down the barriers between public service providers and public service users, designing, delivering and monitoring services together. And that is the key omission from what could be a far stronger Bill.
Co-production is about building resilient communities, confidence and capacity. It's about seeing everyone, not just statutory partners, as equal partners in local services, breaking down the barriers between people who provide services and those who use them. Co-producing public services with users and communities goes beyond models of service user consultation, that horrible word that should be buried with the dinosaurs, to better delivery of health, social services and other services for an ageing population, for people facing illness and disability, to the economically inactive and to those in social isolation. It's about prevention and reablement by a personal and community responsibility and localism. It's about sustainable social, economic and community regeneration. It also falls within the Welsh Government's stated policy approach more broadly.
Amendments 180 and 182 seek to strengthen section 46 of the Bill by ensuring that local people and local community-based organisations are involved within local government decision-making processes. These amendments place a duty on principal councils to involve local people and local community-based organisations in line with the language used, for example, in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, but also in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, but often, and too often ignored or misunderstood. In contrast to consultation, involvement approaches work with people at earlier stages, such as helping to identify issues and potential solutions and supporting them to remain involved right throughout design, implementation and evaluation processes.
A survey carried out by the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee found that 70 per cent of respondents either disagreed or strongly disagreed with the statement that they feel able to influence decisions made by their council. Thus, rather than simply encouraging people to participate, local authorities need to create opportunities for meaningful involvement within the decision-making process with deliberative processes and involvement to help co-produce services and to empower communities to use their existing strengths to develop more sustainable communities—bottom-up, not top-down.
Amendments 181 and 183 place a requirement on the Welsh Government to develop and issue guidance to local authorities to support them in achieving improved involvement rather than just participation, as currently drafted in the Bill. During Stage 1 proceedings, the Electoral Reform Society Cymru stated that the Bill as drafted
'may lead to a patchwork of effectiveness at local authority level'
in enhancing participation and involvement. They also contend that the provision as drafted does not demonstrate the type of engagement and involvement the Welsh Government expects to see from local authorities. It also noted that there's no specific role for the Welsh Government in imparting information and guidance to local authorities to support them in achieving improved not just participation, but also involvement.
Amendment 184 requires principal councils to collaborate with connected authorities to encourage involvement in the making of decisions at all levels of local government. This amendment seeks to build on the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee's recommendation 12, which recommended the duty in section 46(2) be amended to include a requirement on principal councils to collaborate with connected authorities to encourage participation in the making of decisions. Whilst the Welsh Government has sought to completely remove the duty in section 46(2), we recognise that it's not just important but also essential that public bodies collaborate to establish a public involvement strategy to provide meaningful opportunities for local people and local community-based organisations to be involved in decision making at all levels. This amendment also embeds the principles of co-production and asset-based community development in the delivery of public involvement strategies, as well as the design and delivery of public services. Again, it focuses on involvement strategies so that councils and town and community councils collaborate and promote greater involvement in the decision-making process. The Co-production Network for Wales noted its criticism of the section in the Bill relating to the duty to encourage participation in its Stage 1 evidence. Despite applauding the intention, it believed that provision
'will not be vastly different from what already exists',
and that the strategies will not improve the relationship and interactions between the council and its people.
Amendments 185, 186 and 187 seek to strengthen section 47 by requiring principal councils to take into account ways of facilitating the co-production of services and involvement with the decision-making process as part of their public involvement strategy, currently named the public participation strategy. As I stated earlier, a survey carried out by the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee found that 70 per cent of respondents either disagreed or strongly disagreed with the statement that they felt able to influence decisions made by the council. Thus, rather than simply encouraging people to participate, local authorities and connected authorities need to create opportunities for meaningful involvement with the decision-making process as described.
This amendment also places a duty on principal councils to consider ways of promoting the use of participatory budgeting to involve local people and local community-based organisations in budget-setting processes. This addition was suggested by the Building Communities Trust to provide a more focused, defined and meaningful approach to involving communities, not as a nice add-on or an option, but as something that's central to this change, this revolution in the way we engage with real local democracy in our community resilience building.
Amendments 189 and 190 are consequential to amendment 187, and rename the public participation strategy a 'public involvement strategy' to reflect the embedding of the principles of co-production within the Bill as introduced in amendment 187. These aren't simply words. Within the global co-production movement, these words have true meaning that impacts on the lives of thousands, if not millions, of people. Amendment 188 amends section 47(2)(f) to help encourage elected members to use a wider range of media platforms to involve people in decision making. Currently, subsection (f) only requires the promotion of the benefits of elected members using social media to communicate with local people. We feel the Bill is too specific in this area and, as the co-production network for Wales highlighted to me, the Bill must recognise that many people do not have access to social media and it's important that elected members are aware of a wider range of media-related tools to involve local people and local community-based organisations. This amendment therefore incorporates but is not limited to social media in order to encourage elected members to involve everybody in decision making.
Amendments 191 and 192 ensure that, when preparing the public involvement strategy, currently called a weaker 'public participation strategy' in the Bill, the principal council must involve local stakeholders, as opposed to 'consult', as currently drafted in the Bill. As stated, in contrast to consultation, involvement approaches work with people at earlier stages, helping to identify issues and potential solutions and support people to remain involved right throughout the design, implementation and evaluation processes.
Amendments 194, 195, 198, 199 and 202 replace 'public participation strategy' with 'public involvement strategy' to ensure consistency of drafting with my earlier proposed amendments and to reflect the aims of our amendments, placing the principles of real co-production and involvement within this Bill, not cosy relationships between public service providers.
Amendment 196 ensures that, when reviewing a public involvement strategy, currently called a public participation strategy in the Bill, the principal council must involve local community-based organisations as well as local people. This expands the number of stakeholders that would be involved in the review of a public involvement strategy, ensuring greater involvement from a wider section of society, and genuinely co-producing the strategy.
Amendment 200 ensures that, when revising the public involvement strategy, currently called a public participation strategy in the Bill, the principal council must involve local stakeholders, as opposed to 'consult', as is currently drafted in the Bill. As stated, in contrast to consultation, involvement approaches work with people at earlier stages, identifying issues and potential solutions and supporting their involvement throughout.
Amendment 201 ensures that, when revising a public involvement strategy, currently called a public participation strategy in the Bill, the principal council must involve local community-based organisations as well as local people. A local community-based organisation is a voluntary or not-for-profit organisation set up and run by people in a particular geographical area to promote the well-being and interests of local residents in a diversity of ways—in other words, the groups that often miss out on other local procurement initiatives and need real voice in the design and delivery of services. This expands the number of stakeholders that are to be involved in the review of a public involvement strategy, ensuring greater involvement from a wider section of society by genuinely co-producing the strategy. This would bring, also, this Bill in line with other Welsh Government legislation.
Amendment 204 strengthens section 49, 'duty to make petition scheme', by introducing a requirement for principal councils to actively consider or debate any petitions that meet the defined threshold. This petition makes similar provisions to the petitions scheme used by the Welsh Parliament, or Senedd. It will require any petition that receives at least 50 signatures to be considered by a relevant committee, whilst petitions that receive at least 1,000 signatures must be considered by a meeting of the full council. Whilst we welcome the provisions in the Bill to make a petition scheme, we believe that the scheme must enable local people and local community-based organisations to be involved in the wider decision-making process. In a survey carried out by the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee, 56 per cent of respondents said that a main barrier to engaging with the council was that they did not think their views would make any difference. Thus, by enabling petitions to be actively considered and debated by councils, the views of the community could be directly considered by elected members, allowing them to be involved in decision making.
Amendment 205 strengthens section 49, 'duty to make petition scheme' by ensuring that principal councils actively promote their petitions scheme and also make it as accessible as possible. The Electoral Reform Society Cymru noted in our Stage 1 evidence that petitions are also a good way to engage the public, and that it is fundamental that transparent mechanisms are put in place within the process. They also highlighted concerns that the Bill does not require local authorities to promote the petitions scheme once it's been established, asking, 'Who is going to inform voters that this scheme is up and running, and who is going to measure its success and hold the local authority to account?'.
Amendment 206 inserts an element of reasonable practicability into the provision requiring principal councils to broadcast meetings. In written evidence to the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee, Lawyers in Local Government argued that the current provisions in section 53 of the Bill, 'Electronic broadcasts of meetings of certain local authorities', quote,
'might have the unintended consequence of reducing attempts by local authorities to make themselves more accessible'.
For example, Lawyers in Local Government contend that, if meetings must be broadcast,
'then this will disincentivise calling meetings at buildings other than council offices with established webcasting provision'
and reduce opportunities for community outreach activities. As such, they called for the duty to be expressed as an obligation to webcast meetings where 'reasonably practical'.
Amendment 207 is consequential to amendment 206 and places a duty on Welsh Ministers to issue guidance outlining what meetings are expected to be broadcast and in what circumstances. A 'reasonably practical' clause may be invoked to ensure that councils are able to hold meetings within the wider community.
And amendment 208 is also consequential to amendment 206, and inserts an element of reasonable practicability into the provision requiring principal councils to broadcast meetings. In other words, this is all about giving the people in our communities a real voice. Thank you.
Okay. Thank you, Mark. I call on Delyth Jewell to speak.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. Amendment 269 is submitted as a probing amendment, and we submitted it to establish whether the Minister believes that the duties on public participation mean that local authorities should be proactively assisting people to participate in decisions in a helpful manner. There are many decisions that are taken by local authorities, most obviously, perhaps, planning, that are quasi-judicial and where officers and committees are limited in how they can make a decision at the moment. Understandably, there is sometimes a lack of wider public understanding of these processes, and often people who comment on particular applications make a case that doesn't use material or relevant considerations, as a result, possibly, of the opacity of how they are currently in that system. One way of solving this could be that a local authority could have a planning officer who wasn't involved in the decision who is available to help somebody to make a case in terms that would be legally sound. But that's just one option; there could be other ways. So, we haven't specified that in the amendment and we'd appreciate hearing the Minister's views on how far local authorities should be willing to go to improve public participation in this way. Diolch yn fawr.
Diolch yn fawr, Delyth. Are there any other Members who wish to speak? Huw Irranca-Davies.
Yes, just briefly, Chair. First of all, Mark, thank you for laying these amendments, and Delyth as well, because it's prompted a very useful discussion and it's an area that I have a lot of sympathy with, bringing, if you like, my political background to it—the idea of co-production and co-operation and meaningful engagement and involvement and so on. I think one of the difficulties that I have with some of the amendments being laid is I'm not sure that they hold water from a strictly legal point of view. Some of the terminology—what does 'meaningful' mean? What does 'involvement' mean, compared to 'participation'? Does it have a legal understanding and so on? But the spirit of it I absolutely get. And I would like to think, to be honest, that good local authorities would do this come what may, but what we want to see is all local authorities having this deep, meaningful approach not just to consultation, but to a deep engagement and involvement.
But the problem is how we make this happen and phrase it either on the face of the Bill, or actually somewhere else within guidance. That guidance could, for example, follow under the public participation strategy, and I think that's one of my queries with this: legally, what is the difference between participation and involvement? Is there something that I'm missing within this that makes it absolutely clear, when challenged, that somebody could say, 'This local authority has allowed me to participate, but has not involved me'? Does that have a clear legal meaning?
But if I can pose this back to the Minister, in the spirit of genuine exploration of the spirit of the amendments that have been put forward, that local authorities should really deeply engage and involve—and I say this in the knowledge that some of us have been involved, for example, with the Skyline projects in the south Wales Valleys, where local communities have not just been encouraged, but have been given the capacity and support to allow them to really deeply involve in the ownership and management of regeneration projects within the skyline of everything they can see—well, how, if not with these amendments, do we make that happen? Now, I think there are different ways to make that happen, but I'm seeking the Minister's assurance that she can see the spirit in which these are put forward and that there is a way to make this happen, perhaps with an underpinning guidance. Thank you, Chair.
Diolch yn fawr, Huw. Are there any other Members who wish to speak? No. Then I call on the Minister to speak.
Thank you, Chair. I agree that it should be as simple as possible for people to participate in local democracy, and this is what the provisions in Part 3 of the Bill and our amendments in this group are intended to do. And whilst I understand the sentiment entirely behind amendment 180, I consider that some of the words used, such as 'relevant' and 'meaningful' would, as Huw has just eloquently said, require further explanation in order to ensure a well-defined duty. So, whilst I do not support this amendment, my officials are currently working with local government on developing the guidance necessary to support the implementation of this part of the Act, and I will ensure the guidance includes the emphasis the Member is trying to convey.
This brings me to amendment 181, which proposes further guidance provisions. Section 51 of the Bill already requires principal councils to have regard to any guidance issued by the Welsh Government in respect of this chapter of the Bill. On this basis, the amendment is unnecessary, and I cannot support it.
As drafted for introduction, section 46 subjects principal councils to a duty to encourage local people to participate in their decision making and the decision making of connected authorities—in this case, the community councils and national park authorities within the principal council's area. Whilst stakeholders were supportive of the duty, concerns were raised during the committee's evidence sessions regarding the appropriateness of placing a duty on principal councils in respect of the decision making of different bodies. Having considered this further, I agree that the duty on principal councils to encourage participation in decision making should not extend to connected bodies, as these are independent bodies and should remain responsible for their own matters.
Consideration was given to subjecting the connected authorities to the duty in their own right. However, I thought this would be disproportionate, given the nature and typical size of the bodies in question. There are other provisions in the Bill that support increased transparency, such as the duty on community councils to prepare an annual report. Consideration is also being given to other non-legislative measures to help support increased participation of local people in their community councils. Amendment 22 therefore removes provisions in respect of encouraging local people to participate in the decision making of connected authorities from section 46. Amendments 21 and 23 are consequential on amendment 22, and remove the references to connected authorities from section 46 and 45, in light of amendment 22.
Amendments 182, 183, 184 and also 187 all seek to make provision in respect of connected authorities. As I have tabled an amendment to remove this provision, I cannot support the amendments.
Section 47 requires principal councils to prepare a public participation strategy, setting out how they intend to comply with a duty to encourage local people to participate in the making of decisions. Sub-section (ii) lists the matters that the strategy must address. Amendments 24 through to 30 remove all references to connected authorities from section 47.
Amendments 185, 186, 189, 190, 194, 195, 198, 199 and 202 all seek to replace the term 'participation' with 'involvement' throughout sections 47 and 48, so as to make reference to a public involvement strategy. And whilst I absolutely understand the reasons behind these amendments, I think it's important that we are clear about the different terminology being considered. There was a considerable amount of discussion when determining the language to be used in this provision, especially in the light of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and the sustainable development principle provided for in section 5. Principal councils are required to act in accordance with the sustainable development principle, including involving other persons with an interest in achieving the well-being goals. This is a very particular meaning, and local authorities are already subject to that duty. I therefore do not support these amendments, as this would cause confusion with the duty set out in the well-being of future generations Act. The Bill is about encouraging local people to participate in local government, finding our future elected members, people who will contribute to scrutiny work, and helping people understand how local democracy works. It is intended to work in harmony with the duties in the well-being of future generations Act, not to duplicate them.
Amendment 118 seeks to replace the term 'social media' with 'current and emerging digital and media platforms'. There is nothing in the Bill that prevents the promotion of the benefits of either current or future digital or media platforms. Therefore, I do not support this amendment. The term 'social media' is universally recognised, and I do not consider a change of wording in the way suggested would be helpful. When developing the guidance, I will ensure it includes references to a wide range of communication routes.
Amendments 191 and 200 replace the requirement to 'consult' with the requirement to 'involve' within section 48 of the Bill. This specifically relates to the consultation and review of a public participation strategy. The term 'consult', as Huw has just pointed out, actually has a particular meaning in law that is well understood and used consistently throughout the Bill and other Welsh legislation. I do not, therefore, support these amendments as, although I understand the intention behind them entirely, I think they actually promote some confusion in terms of the legal duties.
Amendments 192, 193, 196, 197, 201 and 203 insert 'local community based organisations' into the list of persons a principal council must consult when preparing, revising or replacing its public participation strategy. I welcome the focus of this amendment and the intention to recognise the many community groups and organisations that have a unique and valuable contribution to make. However, I consider that section 48, as currently worded, already provides for these organisations to be included. I consider the term 'such other persons as it considers appropriate' one that would include, of course, all of those organisations. And, therefore, while I will not be supporting the amendments, we will consider how the spirit behind them can be best incorporated into the guidance underpinning this section of the Bill.
Turning to the proposed amendment to the provisions in respect of the duty to establish a petitions scheme, I support the intention behind amendment 204, but careful thought needs to be applied when placing any numerical limits in primary legislation. At the time, it always seems like a good idea, but there can be unintended consequences further down the line. For example, in this Bill, we are dealing with such a situation. The Local Government (Wales) Measure 2011 includes specific periods of time for a range of family absence. In the case of adopter's leave, it is currently two weeks. This has prevented us from changing that period from two to 26 simply because it was enshrined in primary legislation. The approach we're taking through this Bill is to remove the limits from the Measure, which will enable us to more easily amend the level of leave available for family absence through regulations. I'm concerned that this amendment, therefore, may result in a similar situation. Section 49, subsection (2)(c) requires that a petitions scheme must, in particular, set out the steps a council may take in response to a petition received by it. We are working with local government to develop guidance to support the implementation of petition schemes, and we will explore thresholds or other measures as the guidance is developed. My aim would be to seek a balance between consistency of approach across Wales and local discretion.
I also agree with the intention behind amendment 205. This is why section 47 of the Bill requires a public participation strategy to address ways of promoting and facilitating processes by which local people may make representations to the principal council about a decision before and after it is made. I consider the provision would include promoting the existence and operation of its petition scheme. I therefore do not consider the proposed amendment is required to achieve the desired outcome. On that basis I do not support the amendment.
Again, I agree with the spirit behind amendment 269, but I cannot support it as, again, this is a matter that can be addressed through existing provision in the Bill, including the public participation strategy and petition schemes. I will, though, consider how this can be addressed through the development of the relevant guidance.
And finally, turning to amendments 206, 207 and 208 in respect of electronic broadcasting, again, I understand the purpose behind these amendments and the difficult position principal councils feel they would face if the Bill is passed with this provision in it. During Stage 1 of the Bill, many concerns were raised about a default position in the Bill that meetings or any part of a meeting of a principal council that are open to the public must be broadcast. I've been clear that I want to find a practical solution, and while the current provision provides for Ministers to exclude specified meetings from a requirement to broadcast proceedings live, I consider the provision could be improved. That's why I am considering the options for bringing forward an amendment to section 53 at Stage 3 of the Bill. My intention is that the amendment will look to provide a more incremental and flexible approach to the broadcast of meetings, and on this basis, I do not support these amendments at this point in time. Diolch, Chair.
Diolch, Weinidog. Mark Isherwood to reply.
Thank you. This is a suite of amendments that collectively could finally give co-production teeth in Wales. As the Minister rightly says, we have other legislation that has duties to collaborate and engage or codes of practice under legislation to design and deliver services with people who receive care and support and so on, but we know that too often this is either misunderstood, overlooked or deliberately avoided by those in power who don't wish to share it.
Now, as Huw quite rightly said, good councils would be doing this anyhow, and some good councils are making some progress in these areas. I believe, within the next week or two, the Minister and I think Huw as well are involved in hosting an online meeting about having local area co-ordination in their own patch, which is part of this family of measures, but it's celebrating something in one small area. I've worked with groups from Pembrokeshire to Ynys Môn, to Flintshire and down to Monmouthshire, who are engaged in this agenda, some of whom find their local authorities friends, and if they don't already get it, they want to learn and engage. But I've also worked with many who find that barriers exist in their county halls, sometimes when people simply don't understand what this means, but too often from those who believe that because they've got important, highly paid positions or big titles, they know best and others should be grateful for decisions made on their behalf.
So, this is about ensuring that local people and local community-based organisations are involved with local government decision-making processes and service delivery and making this systemic and cultural, not a nice add-on. We know that consultations have a place, but we know that too often they're used as a fig leaf to enable the person or body administering the consultation to say they've done it and then they go ahead and do what they were going to do in the first place. This approach would prevent that.
There's a lot of talk about the language and the difference between 'engagement' and 'participation', or 'involvement' and 'participation'. We've involved a large number of organisations in putting this together—organisations working in this sector, organisations with huge expertise in this sector, organisations that work internationally with other organisations working on these approaches. 'Involvement' is a word that they proposed to us as the word that is legally watertight, that has true meaning and that goes well beyond the term 'participation', which we know can be used and abused according to the will and whim of the body asking others to participate. 'Participation' can mean anything; 'involvement' has an established national and international legal meaning, which was, as I say, put to us rather than created by us as something to include within our amendment.
So, I was pleased that all respondents appeared to accept the spirit of these amendments, but I urge you to recognise that unless you put meat on the bones and require these things to be done, they're simply not going to happen because there's too many self-important people who don't want to share power and too many other really good people who haven't had the opportunity to understand what this is really about and would come on board if they were required to look more closely at it. There's also many others who are already doing it who must be celebrated and whose expertise should be drawn upon as we take this forward. So, I urge you not to dump this off in the bin and rely on regulations or guidance or existing legislation, because it simply isn't working. Thank you.
Okay. Thank you, Mark. Mark, do you wish, then, to proceed to a vote on amendment 180?
I do.
Okay. The question, then, is that amendment 180 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. We will move to a vote. Firstly, Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 180, there voted two in favour, three against, one abstention, and that amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 180: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 181?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 181 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 181 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
I do.
The question is that amendment 181 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 181, there voted two in favour, three against, one abstention, and that amendment is not agreed.
Gwelliant 181: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 22 (Julie James).
Amendment 22 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 22 in the name of the Minister. If amendment 22 is agreed, amendments 182, 183, 184 and 268 fall. The question is that amendment 22 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 22, there voted four in favour, two against, and that amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 22: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 2, Ymatal: 0
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Amendments 182, 183 and 184 all fall.
Methodd gwelliannau 182, 183, 184 a 268.
Amendments 182, 183, 184 and 268 fell.
We move on to group 13, which relates to equality and diversity, job sharing and family absence. The lead amendment in the group was 268, but that has fallen; it is now 272. I call on Delyth Jewell to move amendment 272 and speak to this amendment—[Interruption.] I'm sorry? Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, amendment 272, then, is further on in terms of the marshalled list. So, that makes amendment 23 the lead—[Interruption.] Oh, so which group are we on, then? Are we not on group 13? Oh, I'm sorry. With the falling of the amendments, then, we haven't, in fact, moved on to group 13, so we remain on group 12, and move to amendment 23, which is an amendment in the name of the Minister.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 23 (Julie James).
Amendment 23 (Julie James) moved.
So, I then move amendment 23 in the name of the Minister, and the question is that amendment 23 be agreed. Does any Member, then, object? [Objection.] Yes. So then we will move to a vote. And firstly, then, Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood. Amendment 23, Mark.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 23, there voted four in favour, one against and one abstention. The amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 23: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 24 (Julie James).
Amendment 24 (Julie James) moved.
I then move amendment 24 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 24 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote, then. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 24, there voted four in favour, one against, one abstention, and amendment 24 is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 24: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 85?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 185 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 85 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
Amendment 185, yes, I do.
Sorry, amendment 185. Yes. Okay. The question is that amendment 185 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, then, we will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 185, there voted two in favour, three against, one abstention, and the amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 185: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 25 (Julie James).
Amendment 25 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 25 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 25 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 25, there voted four in favour, one against, one abstention, and that amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 25: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 186?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 186 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 186 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
I do.
The question is that amendment 186 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 186, there voted two in favour, three against, one abstention, and that amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 186: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 26 (Julie James).
Amendment 26 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 26 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 26 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 26, there voted in favour four, against one, one abstention, and that amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 26: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 27 (Julie James).
Amendment 27 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 27 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 27 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 27, there voted four in favour, one against, one abstention, and that amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 27: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 28 (Julie James).
Amendment 28 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 28 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 28 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 28, there voted four in favour, one against, one abstention, and that amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 28: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 29 (Julie James).
Amendment 29 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 29 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 29 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 29, there voted four in favour, one against, one abstention, and that amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 29: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 187?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 187 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 187 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
I do.
The question is that amendment 187 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 187, there voted two in favour, three against, one abstention, and that amendment is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 187: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 30 (Julie James).
Amendment 30 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 30 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 30 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 30, there voted four in favour, one against, one abstention and that amendment is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 30: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 188?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 188 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 188 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
Move.
The question is that amendment 188 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 188, there voted two in favour, three against, one abstention, and that amendment is not agreed.
Gwelliant 188: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Okay, we've reached a stage where the following 11 amendments are all consequential. I therefore propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.36, that these amendments are grouped for a single vote. Does any Member object? No. Then, Mark, do you wish to move amendments 189 to 199?
Cynigiwyd gwelliannau 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198 a 199 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendments 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198 and 199 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
Most certainly, I do.
Okay, then, the question is that amendments 189 to 199 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, then, we will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendments 189 to 199, there voted two in favour, three against, one abstention, and those amendments are therefore not agreed.
Gwelliannau 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198 a 199: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliannau
Amendments 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198 and 199: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1
Amendments have been rejected
Cath, what's happened to group 13 then? [Laughter.] Okay, then, at this stage, we move to—. I'm sorry, I can see that my question was audible.
Only just, Chair—only just.
Yes, it's fine.
The stage whisper didn't work. [Laughter.]
Group 14, then, concerns drafting corrections. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 31 in the name of the Minister.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 31 (Julie James).
Amendment 31 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 31 in the name of the Minister and call on the Minister to speak to this amendment and the other amendments in this group—Minister.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. I think that put quite a few of us in a bit of a flap, there, on the right page of our speech, but I think I'm in the right place. All of the amendments in this group are minor and technical, largely addressing typographical errors in either the English or Welsh text of the Bill, or make minor changes to ensure there is consistent drafting throughout the Bill.
Amendment 31 amends a typographical error, where 'counsel' has been included in section 48 instead of 'council'—so, 'counsel' instead of 'council'. The remaining amendments—85, 49, 53, 55, 91, 59 and 60—all address minor drafting matters in the Welsh text of the Bill. So, I call on Members to support all the amendments in the group.
Okay, are there any other Members who wish to speak? No. In that case, there is nothing for you to respond to, Minister, unless you wish to add anything. No? No. Okay then, the question is that amendment 31 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Then amendment 31 is agreed.
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.
Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 200?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 200 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 200 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
I do.
You do. The question is that amendment 200 be agreed. Does any Member object? Okay, we will then move—
Object.
Object. Sorry, we were all muted.
We were all muted, Chair.
I could see the sign language. We will move to a vote, then, on amendment 200. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Chair, I did put my hand up. I'm lost at the moment.
Oh, I'm sorry.
It's totally thrown me.
All right. We're on—
It's in group 12.
Yes. We're on amendment 200, group 14—
Group 12.
Sorry—group 14?
It's 12, Chair, I think we're on.
Twelve—
This amendment is in group 12.
Right. So, what's the number of the amendment, sorry?
Two hundred.
Got it, yes. Thank you. Sorry. I apologise.
That's okay. How would you like to vote?
Abstain, please.
Abstain, okay. Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 200, there voted two in favour, three against, one abstention, and that amendment is not agreed.
Gwelliant 200: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 201?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 201 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 201 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
I do.
The question is that amendment 201 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 201, there voted two in favour, three against, one abstention, and it is not agreed.
Gwelliant 201: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 202?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 202 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 202 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
I do.
The question is that amendment 202 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 202, there voted two in favour, three against, one abstention and it is not agreed.
Gwelliant 202: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 203?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 203 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 203 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
I do.
The question is that amendment 203 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Support.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 203, there voted three in favour and three against. In which case I have a casting vote and I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Gwelliant 203: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0
Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei bleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Amendment 203: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used his casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Amendment has been rejected
Okay, then. Mark, do you wish to move amendment 204?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 204 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 204 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
Move.
Okay. The question is that amendment 204 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 204, there voted two in favour, three against, one abstention, and it is not agreed.
Gwelliant 204: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 205?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 205 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 205 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
Move.
The question is that amendment 205 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 205, there voted two in favour, three against and one abstention, and it is not agreed.
Gwelliant 205: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 269?
No. I was pleased with what the Minister said about guidance. So, no, I don't.
Okay. Does any other Member wish to move that amendment? No. Then that amendment is not moved.
Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 269 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 269 (Delyth Jewell) not moved.
We move on, then, to group 15, meetings, proceedings and access to information. The lead amendment is amendment 270 in the name of Delyth Jewell. I call on Delyth Jewell to move amendment 270 and speak to this amendment and other amendments in this group—Delyth.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 270 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 270 (Delyth Jewell) moved.
Diolch, Gadeirydd. There are a number of amendments in this group that we've tabled, so I'll go through each of them in turn, if I may. Amendment 270 is meant as a probing amendment, so I won't be putting it to a vote, but that's come from—it's come out of frustration from some local authorities about not having had votes recorded or votes being allowed on the nod, or passed with a show of hands. There has been a practice where amendments in some local authorities have been proposed during a debate and then voted on without a written version of that amendment being circulated to councillors, so councillors wouldn't really have perhaps had a thorough understanding of what they were voting on. Legal services have advised us that an amendment specifically requiring written amendments to motions was unnecessary, as other legislation covers this and that's why only amendment 270 was tabled in this regard.
However, the policy intention here was to probe whether the Minister thinks that the voting records of councillors should always be recorded so that the public is aware of how their representatives have voted, and that amendments to motions for debate should be written down so that councillors can know what they're voting on before the vote takes place. We'd be happy if the Minister could reaffirm that it would be good practice for local authorities to record the votes of councillors and have procedures for ensuring that amendments are written and circulated before a vote is held on them.
Turning to amendment 271, this, again, is a probing amendment and we've tabled this because we're aware, again, that some local authorities have unclear procedures for obtaining information. At present, in some authorities, there appears to be only two ways in which a councillor can obtain information: through making a freedom of information request, which has a formal legal process and only applies to information, or alternatively, having a question tabled on the agenda for discussion in full council, and that's a procedure that tends to be used for rhetorical debate. In cases where councillors just want information or the opinion of the executive, we feel that there should be a procedure to allow this. In our view, the written question format works well in most parliaments for this purpose and publishing answers for all members to see would avoid duplication, so we would welcome a debate on this and hearing the Minister's thoughts.
Moving to amendment 279, this probing amendment has been tabled to clarify that officers shouldn't be refusing to provide information to a scrutiny committee when requested to do so, apart from in exceptional cases such as where safeguarding is involved. An example of this was seen in one local authority where a legal officer told a committee that was scrutinising a new waste collection service that he hadn't decided whether the committee would be allowed to see the contract for that service. We'd welcome clarification from the Minister that withholding information from a committee is regarded as poor practice unless they are, again, exceptional circumstances.
And finally in this group, amendment 280 is again a probing amendment that would require local authorities to establish a research service similar to what's enjoyed by us as Members of the Senedd. Now, we accept that this would impose substantial costs on local authorities, so with this amendment, we're probing to find out how much support the Minister thinks a local authority should be providing to backbench members in their scrutiny function and in finding alternatives. We feel that there is an asymmetry at the moment in terms of the executive and backbenchers and that needs to be addressed. We'd welcome thoughts on how this could be done. Diolch yn fawr.
Diolch yn fawr, Delyth. I call on Mark Isherwood to speak.
Thank you. Amendment 209 seeks to place a duty on principal councils to prepare and publish a procedure to enable members in remote attendance to vote in the event that facilities enabling remote attendance fail. The amendment also voids any meeting where technical problems prevent the vote, unless an alternative voting procedure has been agreed, which is, of course, important so that elected members are able to fully discharge their duties and are given equal opportunities to influence decision making. This is an amendment, therefore, that simply seeks to ensure that alternative emergency voting procedures are put in place to ensure that all members are able to discharge their duties, whether they're attending a meeting physically or remotely. I will seek to move it accordingly.
Okay. Thank you, Mark. Are there any other Members who wish to speak? No. Then I call on the Minister to speak.
Thank you, Chair. I have a lot of sympathy with the spirit of amendment 270. Obviously, we are not supporting it at this time, but it's because we're looking at the issue already. We're preparing Government amendments for Stage 3 with a view to retaining the changes made by the Local Authorities (Coronavirus) (Meetings) (Wales) Regulations 2020. The experience of making those regulations showed that the legislation and procedures around the preparation and retention of minutes were particularly complex, with interconnections to other pieces of legislation, for example about presenting agreed and certified minutes as evidence in proceedings.
The issue of recording votes is one we are considering carefully. For example, there is already a provision about the recording of votes at council meetings in the Local Authorities (Standing Orders) (Wales) Regulations 2006, which we are currently reviewing. If our amendments are agreed at Stage 3, a comprehensive review of council meeting arrangements can be undertaken, with a view to modernising them, something that hasn't been done for over 30 years. So, the review will be able to take into account the experience of working with the temporary arrangements put in place for the pandemic. Chair, one of the only bright things that's come out of the pandemic is our rapid move to these new arrangements and our ability to test them in real time. Our position, therefore, is that the issues need to be examined in their totality as part of the wider review, so I ask the members of the committee to reject the amendment on that basis.
I don't support amendment 209. Section 54 of the Bill, and therefore this amendment, only covers principal councils, but the Local Authorities (Coronavirus) (Meetings) (Wales) Regulations 2020 enable the wider local government family to continue to conduct business legally and safely, including meeting remotely. I receive many representations from all parts of the local government family for key parts of the emergency regulations to be preserved into the future. We are therefore preparing Government amendments for Stage 3, with a view to replacing section 54. We're all too aware of the recent actions that have had to be taken within areas where there has been an increase in COVID-19. The amendment I intend to bring forward will help futureproof local government meeting arrangements to deal with these circumstances, taking into account collective learning from recent months. They will also provide greater opportunities for individuals to balance their public role with their family responsibilities and, potentially, other employment.
Unfortunately, I'm not able to support amendment 271. I've no real issue with the principle that there should be arrangements in place to enable members to ask questions of the executive leader or elected mayor and receive answers to those questions. Equally, I can see the value of having arrangements in place to ensure transparency around the answers. This is, of course, common practice in many principal councils. We will be working with local government to review the model constitution to take account of the changes this Bill will make to local government law, and I will propose to the WLGA that we consider this issue as part of that review.
I'll be more than happy to consider issues around dealing with amendments, for example, to motions as part of that review also. Therefore, I don't think it's necessary or desirable to set out a requirement in primary legislation. In addition, my particular issue with the amendment is requiring all questions to be accepted and answered. While clearly well intentioned, the amendment does not allow for questions to be filtered to exclude those questions that are not legitimately for the executive leader or elected mayor to answer; and neither does it guard against members seeking to take advantage of the process and using it as a substitute for the advice, support and research facilities available to members.
I also agree with the spirit of amendment 279 and the need for members to have access to appropriate levels of information, but I believe the purpose of the amendment is already covered in regulations 10 and 11 of the Local Authorities (Executive Arrangements) (Decisions, Documents and Meetings) (Wales) Regulations 2001, which provide for the level of support that Delyth set out in her submission. So, on that basis, I don't support the amendment.
Again, as with many of the amendments tabled by Members, I understand the intent behind amendment 280. In order for members of principal councils to undertake their role effectively, they must have access to timely, up-to-date, accurate and well-researched information. I absolutely agree, and I'm sure many Members of the Senedd have benefited from the services available at this institution. However, provision for advice and support already exists for members of principal councils. It was introduced by the Local Government Measure (Wales) 2011 through the democratic services provisions. As early as December 2010, the Minister responsible for the Bill said that
'All council members need the proper support and advice.... It is not just the executive that should have support, but backbench members as well.'
The explanatory note accompanying the legislation is clear that one of the purposes of the head of democratic services is to ensure that councillors outside the executive are provided with sufficient support to enable them to carry out their duties effectively with the necessary administrative and research provision. So, whilst I'm not able to support the amendment, I will consider bringing forward an amendment at Stage 3 to provide for a guidance power relating to the functions of the head of democratic services. We could then work with local government and the WLGA to issue specific guidance following the Measure in this area. Diolch.
Diolch yn fawr, Weinidog. Delyth Jewell to reply to the debate.
Diolch, Gadeirydd. I'm very pleased that we've had this debate. I thought it was really very constructive, very useful. I thank the Minister for her response to the amendments, particularly what she was saying about the amendments that may be tabled by the Government at Stage 3 that might capture some of what we have been looking to get out of amendment 270. I take on board the points that the Minister was making about the drafting of—I think it was amendment 271. Obviously, these were drafted as probing amendments in order to facilitate this debate, and so I'm very glad that we've had it. And, again, I was very pleased to hear that the Minister is considering bringing forward amendments at Stage 3 that would look at maybe providing guidance that might capture some of the spirit of our amendment 280. I welcome that, so, Chair, I will not be pushing these to a vote.
Okay. Thank you very much, Delyth. So, amendment 270, then, is not moved by Delyth. Is there any other Member who wishes to move that amendment? No, sorry—[Interruption.] Oh, does it? Okay. As the amendment has been put forward, it then has to be withdrawn. So, Delyth, are you content to withdraw amendment 270?
You are. Okay.
Tynnwyd gwelliant 270 yn ôl gyda chaniatâd y pwyllgor.
Amendment 270 withdrawn by leave of the committee.
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 206?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 206 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 206 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
Move.
Okay. Amendment 206 is moved. The question is that amendment 206 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 206, there voted two in favour, three against, one abstention, and it is not agreed.
Gwelliant 206: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 207?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 207 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 207 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
Move.
The question is that amendment 207 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, there are two in favour, three against, one abstention, and amendment 207 is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 207: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 208?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 208 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 208 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
Move.
The question is that amendment 208 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 208, there voted two in favour, three against, one abstention, and it is not agreed.
Gwelliant 208: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 209?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 209 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 209 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
Move.
The question is that amendment 209 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Object.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, two voted in favour, three voted against, there was one abstention, and amendment 209 is therefore not agreed.
Gwelliant 209: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Delyth, did you say you do not wish to move amendment 271?
I'm happy to not move that.
You're happy not to move that. Does any other Member wish to move that amendment? No, then that amendment is not moved.
Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 271 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 271 (Delyth Jewell) not moved.
Okay. At this stage, then, we will take a short comfort/tea/coffee break just until—well, just gone 3 o'clock. Thank you.
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 14:55 ac 15:02.
The meeting adjourned between 14:55 and 15:02.
Okay, then. We have now reached group 13. As amendment 22 was previously agreed, amendment 268, which was the lead amendment in group 13, has fallen, and the lead amendment is now 272, in the name of Delyth Jewell. So, I ask Delyth Jewell, then, to speak to amendment 272 in this group, which relates to equality, diversity, job sharing and family absence. Delyth.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 272 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 272 (Delyth Jewell) moved.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. Before I turn to amendment 272, I'll put briefly on the record what the purpose of amendment 268 is, though I do appreciate it's now fallen. It was drafted as a probing amendment that was drafted to clarify that processes allowing for public participation, like public speaking in a planning or licensing meeting, should be consistent with good equalities practices. Many local authorities have very strict time limits for public speakers, which, by and of itself, is fair enough, but, if the person speaking has a speech impediment, then some flexibility on that time limit should be allowed, which was the spirit behind the amendment.
Turning to amendment 272, which is now the lead amendment, this is also a probing amendment, tabled due to frustration felt by some councillors that sometimes council business is organised without consideration of other responsibilities—for example, caring responsibilities—that councillors may have. Now, most of us in this session will agree that barriers towards participation should be removed, I'm sure, and the timings of council business in some cases aren't particularly consistent with good equalities practices—not always, anyway—and particularly during this pandemic, when we're aware of numerous councillors who've had to leave meetings halfway through to collect their children or fulfil other caring responsibilities. We do appreciate that this is a wider issue than just the wording of our amendment and how that specifically relates to it, so we'd be happy to hear from the Minister on this more widely.
Moving on to amendments 273 and 274, which I do intend to put to a vote, it can't be right that all-male cabinets are permitted in this day and age, and anyone who thinks this isn't the result of sexism probably should stay off social media, I would suggest. Amendments 275 to 277 are tabled in a similar spirit. Our political system as a whole needs to become far better at supporting people who become parents whilst elected. Attitudes have to change. So, I will be putting them to a vote.
And finally, amendment 278 is a probing amendment, which I hadn't intended to put to a vote, highlighting the lack of training available to some councillors on these issues around equalities. Equality and diversity training, including unconscious bias training, should be provided to members soon after an election, and they should be compulsory, those training sessions. Sometimes, these training sessions aren't provided, in some cases, for years, so we'd like it on the record, please, from the Minister that local authorities should be ensuring all councillors are provided with this training.
Regarding abuse, the reason behind this amendment is that, unfortunately, abuse of elected members, particularly female elected members or those from minority backgrounds, appears to have increased in recent years, and I'm sure we all agree that that's something that has to be combatted. Whilst the majority of the abuse is coming from people online and from the far right, we're aware of examples of councillors behaving inappropriately during council meetings, perhaps unintentionally, so we think some form of training, for example in non-violent communication, could be worthwhile here, in addition to increasing the more general awareness that abuse of councillors is an equalities issue. Again, we'd welcome a discussion on this, as we accept legislation is probably unnecessary here, which is why we are not pushing these to a vote, but this is a wider issue that's worth considering. Diolch yn fawr.
Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Delyth. Are there other Members who wish to speak? No. Then I call on the Minister to speak.
Thank you, Chair. I'm completely committed to increasing diversity across all aspects of public life, and this includes tackling the barriers that prevent individuals' active participation in local democracy. Wales has a diverse population, and it is very important that all individuals have faith in the democratic arrangements that deliver the services they rely on. That is why we are taking steps to increase diversity within elected office, working to enable and empower people who want to put themselves forward for election to serve their communities. For those who choose this important role, it's vital we recognise the challenges many face in balancing their public role with other commitments, such as care of relatives or other employment. I fully support the principles that underpin these amendments, and I would be very happy to have further discussions with members of the committee about what we can collectively do to promote equality and diversity amongst our local elected representatives and ensure councils are putting considerations of equality and diversity front and centre. It's important to remember that local authorities are already required to comply with equalities legislation, not simply in relation to the letter of the law, but in the spirit of the intentions behind the law. It requires an understanding of the difficulties individuals can face as a result of the process of procedural arrangements that are put in place to manage routine business. So, whilst I'm not supporting Delyth's amendments for those reasons, I do want to ensure that guidance underpinning the section includes the importance of ensuring equality and diversity in practice as a key feature of any arrangement.
Amendment 272 amends the 2011 Measure to include a requirement that, when deciding the timing of council meetings, a local authority must have regard to equality and diversity issues. Timing of meetings is a very important matter in supporting greater diversity amongst members. For existing members whose circumstances may change during their period of office, and for prospective members, flexibility to work around employment or caring responsibilities are key factors to consider. The councillor commission expert panel Wales report 'Are we being served?' recognised a number of issues around the timing of meetings and how the arrangements that existed at the time were barriers to diversity. The report resulted in a number of the provisions contained in the 2011 Measure, including the power for Welsh Ministers to issue guidance about the times at which meetings of a local authority are held. At the time, it was considered it was neither practical nor desirable for the Welsh Government to prescribe the times and frequency of meetings of the full council committees and sub-committees, as these were matters for each local authority to consider in individual circumstances, and I must say I agree with that view.
The reality is there is statutory guidance covering the matter. It sets out that all local authorities should review the times at which meetings are held at least once in every term. The guidance clearly states that the rule of thumb should be that meetings will be held at times, intervals and locations that are convenient to its members and, as far as is practicable, have regard to equality and diversity issues. The guidance also advises that councils should find a way of surveying their members to assess their preferences and whether particular times cause difficulty for members with particular characteristics, such as age, gender, religion, having caring responsibilities or being in employment. So, whilst I do not support the amendment, I will consider whether there are changes that could be made to the existing guidance to reinforce those requirements, as I entirely agree with Delyth on the thrust of her proposals.
Amendment 274 seeks to prohibit a principal council from having an all-male executive. The need to improve diversity in all tiers of government and other organisations in Wales is something we can all agree on. I've said many times that decision making is stronger when the decision makers reflect the communities they serve. The key is to remove the barriers that prevent individuals from standing for election so that there is a wider range of individuals involved in community life. This is not only about gender; it's also about ethnicity, disability, age, sexuality and religion. Individuals rarely fall into any one category. So, as individuals, it's important we are recognised as a whole person and not just our gender, though I do agree that gender is an important factor in some of the considerations. On 25 September, I wrote to Members outlining the actions we will be taking in phase 2 of our diversity in democracy programme. These are aimed at promoting the valuable contribution individuals make to society, the support available and the difference they can make for themselves and their neighbours.
I think these amendments are very well intentioned but don't sufficiently address the complexities of the issues. There is scope for unintended consequences. For example, a male member with disabilities may find himself excluded from serving on an executive despite the fact that his experience of living with disability could be invaluable. So, whilst I'm in favour of the positive action proposed, I don't consider a prohibition of this nature as appropriate within an overall approach to diversity. In addition, section 65 of the Bill amends an existing guidance power in section 38 of the Local Government Act 2000, and will enable Welsh Ministers to issue guidance to executive leaders on taking equality and diversity matters into account when executives are formed. So, for these reasons, I will not be supporting the amendment, or amendment 273, which amends the overview section for this part.
Amendments 33, 34 and 35 are technical amendments that replace the term 'position' with the term 'office' in the existing Bill provisions in respect of job sharing, to ensure consistency with the new section being inserted by amendment 36.
Turning to amendment 36, this inserts a new section enabling the Welsh Ministers to make regulations about job sharing within certain non-executive offices within principal councils, namely a chair or vice-chair, a presiding or deputy presiding member, a chair, vice-chair or deputy chair of a committee or sub-committee, or a deputy mayor. This regulation-making power enables the Welsh Ministers to require principal councils to facilitate and remove barriers to job sharing. This could include removing any barriers contained in the authority's standing orders. Regulations will also be able to make provision about the job-sharing arrangements themselves, including how members are to be appointed and how certain functions should be exercised in a shared office. It was clear from the evidence submitted during the earlier stages of the Bill, together with a number of discussions held outside this process, that there is an appetite to extend the current provisions. I'm committed to looking at this matter to see whether it would be possible to achieve this in the time available. So, where there is a need for further work to be undertaken to ensure the implications of any regulations made under this provision are fully considered, I'm delighted to have been able to bring this amendment forward. It paves the way for greater diversity, opportunities to provide development opportunities for less-experienced members and facilitate a greater degree of work-life balance within these important positions in our democratic structures.
Amendment 32 is consequential to amendment 36 and amends the overview section for Part 4 to include details of the new section being inserted by that amendment. And amendment 37 is a technical amendment to correct a typographical error in the Welsh text so as to ensure consistency with the English.
Amendments 275, 276 and 277 seek to extend the scope of the current regulation-making power relating to family absence to require paid support to be provided to members who wish to carry out casework during a period of maternity absence. It is important that, when members are absent from their elected office for extended periods of time, consideration is given to how their communities will continue to be supported. This is a particular issue when the member has been actively engaging with individuals to assist them in progressing personal matters and have come to rely on the member's advice, guidance and support. As Members will be aware, we are removing the prescribed period of leave for each type of family absence in the 2011 Measure so there is flexibility to change the absence periods through regulation. The current level of prescription in the 2011 Measure delayed our ability to increase adopters' leave to the same level of entitlement as maternity absence. We're currently working on a set of regulations to make this change as soon as possible next year, subject to the Bill passing with the required changes to the 2011 Measure. Any steps we take in terms of requiring paid support will need to be seen within this wider context, and on that basis I'm afraid I do not support the amendments, although I entirely understand their thrust.
Previous discussion with local government and the WLGA identified the need for a review of the family absence arrangements to establish whether there are further steps that can be taken. The review forms part of the actions being taken forward as part of phase 2 of our diversity and democracy programme, which I wrote to Members about on 25 September. As we develop the detailed approach to this review, I'll be very happy to discuss how we can ensure the concerns raised by Members help inform the terms of reference.
Amendment 278 amends section 54 of the Local Government Act 2000 to include an additional function on standards committees to advise, train or arrange to train members and co-opted members of the authority on matters relating to equality, diversity and the prevention of abuse. I can entirely see why this amendment has been brought forward, but I do not believe it is required. Section 54(2)(c) already includes the function of
'advising, training or arranging to train members and co-opted members of the authority on matters relating to the authority’s code of conduct.'
Paragraph 4 of the model code of conduct requires members to carry out their duties in line with the principles of equality of opportunity, showing respect and consideration for others, not using bullying behaviour or harassing people, and not compromising impartiality. I consider that standards committees already have the power to advise on equality-related matters and arrange training of the type referred to in the amendment. So, whilst I will not support the amendment, I will consider whether guidance on this may be helpful in carrying out the existing responsibility.
So, in summary, I ask members of the committee to support amendments 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 and—I can't read my own writing—32 in my name, and reject amendments 272, 274, 275, 276, 277, 279 and 273. Diolch, Chair.
Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Gweinidog. And Delyth Jewell then to reply to the debate.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. Again, I found that very constructive. I welcome what the Minister was saying in terms of publishing guidance to clarify the situation, again, in keeping with the spirit of, I think, all of the amendments that we'd tabled. I'm also glad that the Minister has reiterated on the record the need for the guidance that's already in place to be followed by local authorities. I thought that was very helpful. I do take the point that you made, Minister, about the drafting of amendment 274, about the unintended consequence that could come about with other characteristics not being into consideration and, obviously, that wasn't the intention.
Having listened to the Minister's response, I know when I spoke earlier I spoke about my intention to move some of the amendments to a vote, but I won't now be moving any of my amendments in this section to a vote because I'm very pleased with what we've debated and had on the record. Diolch, Cadeirydd.
Okay. Delyth, with regard to amendment 272, it has been moved, so you agree to withdraw it.
I'm happy to withdraw it.
You're happy to withdraw. Okay. So, amendment 272 is withdrawn.
Tynnwyd gwelliant 272 yn ôl gyda chaniatâd y pwyllgor.
Amendment 272 withdrawn by leave of the committee.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 21 (Julie James).
Amendment 21 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 21 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 21 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Sorry, Caroline. [Objection.] Yes. We will move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies. Huw, are you muted? No? Huw.
My apologies. Support.
Okay. Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
Mark, could you say that again?
Support.
Support. And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 21, four in favour, one against, one abstention and therefore the amendment is agreed.
Gwelliant 21: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Delyth, you do not then wish to move amendment 274.
No, I don't.
Does any other Member wish to move that amendment? No. Then, that amendment is not moved.
Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 274 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 274 (Delyth Jewell) not moved.
Group 16 relates to performance management of chief executives. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 96 in the name of the Minister.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 96 (Julie James).
Amendment 96 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 96 in the name of the Minister and call on the Minister to speak to this amendment and other amendments in this group. Gweinidog.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. My amendment 96 removes section 60 of the Bill. This removes the duty on principal councils to make and publish arrangements for managing the performance of the chief executive of the council. This amendment should not be mistaken as abandoning the principle that underpins these provisions. I listened carefully to the evidence provided to and by this committee during Stage 1, especially the contributions and views expressed by stakeholders and the concerns members of the committee expressed about the level of prescription within the provision. Following committee, a number of further discussions took place, including with Solace and ALACE and individuals within local authorities. I acknowledge the concerns raised about the potential for the provision to give licence for individual performance and capability matters to be played out in public. This is not the intention of the provision, as I set out in my explanation to the committee. I remain of that opinion.
However, I have reflected further on the matter in the context of the new self and panel assessment approach to performance and governance set out in this Bill. A key aspect of the performance of any organisation is leadership. In considering how councils have performed I would expect the process to explore that leadership and would expect this to be considered as part of a self and panel assessment process. In light of this, I've decided to remove section 60 in its entirety, and I call on Members to support amendment 96 and amendment 95, which removes the reference to section 60 from the overview section for this part of the Bill.
While I understand the intention behind amendments 210, 211 and 212, they appear to step further into the territory that caused concern previously, and therefore I am unable to support them. So, I ask Members to support amendment 95, which removes reference to section 60 from the overview section for Part 4. Diolch.
Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Gweinidog. I call on Mark Isherwood to speak.
Diolch. Thank you. Provision in respect of performance of management chief executives is key and essential in absolutely every organisation in all sectors. But our amendments—210, 211 and 212—seek to clarify and define what performance management is, and how the performance management of chief executives, as with anyone else, is to be carried out.
So, amendment 210 changes 'managing the performance' to 'the performance management' in section 60—the performance management of chief executives—and is consequential to amendment 211. Amendment 211 seeks to clarify what performance management is by inserting a definition, which has been taken or adapted from a definition used by the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development—the leading professional body for people in this sector. The amendment defines performance management as activities and processes that focus on maintaining and improving employee performance in line with an organisation's objectives. This amendment makes clear that performance management systems incorporate, but are not limited to, annual appraisals; that the performance management system for chief executives must also consider other appropriate methods. This embeds human resources good practice by ensuring that employees are involved as partners in their own performance management. Whatever level an employee is at in the organisation, it is—and I know from my quarter of a century in management—effectively a betrayal of the employee to be without effective performance management structures in place that enable them to have voice and be able to agree the measures with their employers on how to move forward in mutual interest.
Amendment 212 is supplemental to amendment 211. It requires Welsh Ministers to prepare and publish guidance on how performance management of chief executives is to be carried out. This amendment seeks to clarify that performance management systems incorporate, but are not limited to, annual appraisals, which are mere snapshots of a moment in time, and that the performance management system of chief executives considers other appropriate methods, as set out in guidance. So, rather than removing this section, we would wish to strengthen and clarify it, whilst the Minister also seeks to protect confidentiality. I conclude.
Thank you, Mark. Are there other Members who wish to speak? No. Then I call on the Minister to reply to the debate. Minister.
Thank you, Chair. I take on the point where Mark Isherwood is coming to. We are not—I'll just emphasise—removing any need for a performance appraisal of the chief executive. The concern has always been that that's not conducted in a public way, so that, for example, a chief executive who wishes to say that they need training in managing their buttons or something, can do so in a proper space where they can get that support, and not have that floated in public. So, I emphasise that we expect local authorities to have performance appraisal systems in place. This is about what's done in the public domain in terms of the leadership arrangements of an authority, and as I explained in my opening remarks, we think that can be done through the panel and peer review assessment process contained further on in this Bill, on reflection. Diolch, Chair.
Diolch yn fawr, Gweinidog. We then vote on amendment 96. If amendment 96 is agreed, amendments 210, 211 and 212 fall. The question then is that amendment 96 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we will move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood.
Against.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 96, there voted four in favour, two against, and it is therefore agreed. And, therefore, amendments 210, 211 and 212 all fall.
Gwelliant 96: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 2, Ymatal: 0
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Methodd gwelliannau 210, 211 a 212.
Amendments 210, 211 and 212 fell.
Caroline, do you wish to move amendment 253?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 253 (Caroline Jones).
Amendment 253 (Caroline Jones) moved.
Yes, I'd like to move it, please, Chair.
Okay. The question is that amendment 253 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.]
Which group was that? Sorry.
Okay, we move then—
Three. Group 3.
Group 3.
Yes, group 3. Yes, we move then to a vote on amendment 253. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, there voted two in favour, four against, and it is not agreed.
Gwelliant 253: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 85 (Julie James).
Amendment 85 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 85 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 85 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move, then, to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, there voted five in favour with one abstention, and amendment 85 is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 85: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 33 (Julie James).
Amendment 33 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 33 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 33 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 33, there voted five in favour with one abstention, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 33: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 34 (Julie James).
Amendment 34 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 34 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 34 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move, therefore, to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 34, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 34: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 35 (Julie James).
Amendment 35 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 35 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 35 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, five are in favour, with one abstention, and amendment 35 is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 35: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 36 (Julie James).
Amendment 36 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 36 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 36 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I am in favour. Therefore, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and amendment 36 is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 36: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 275?
No, I don't, Cadeirydd.
No. Does anybody else wish to move that amendment—any other Member? No. Then, amendment 275 is not moved.
Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 275 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 275 (Delyth Jewell) not moved.
Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 276?
No, I don't, Cadeirydd.
No. Does any other Member wish to move that amendment? No. Then, amendment 276 is not moved.
Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 276 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 276 (Delyth Jewell) not moved.
Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 277?
I don't.
No. Any other Member wish to move that amendment? No. Then, amendment 277 is not moved.
Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 277 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 277 (Delyth Jewell) not moved.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 37 (Julie James).
Amendment 37 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 37, in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 37 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move, then, to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, there voted in favour five, with one abstention, and amendment 37 is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 37: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
We move on, then, to group 17, relating to regulations under this Act. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 38, in the name of the Minister.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 38 (Julie James).
Amendment 38 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 38, in the name of the Minister, and call on the Minister to speak to this amendment and other amendments in this group. Minister.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. This is another group of technical amendments, this time dealing with the procedure for making regulations. Amendment 38 is in response to a recommendation of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. It subjects regulations made under section 52A of the Local Government Act 2000 , as inserted by section 67 of the Bill, to the affirmative Senedd procedure. Section 52A of the 2000 Act places a duty on the leader of a political group within a principal council to take reasonable steps to promote and maintain high standards of conduct by the members of the group. Regulations made under section 52A may make provisions about the circumstances in which members of a principal council are to be treated as constituting a political group and when a member of a political group is to be treated as the leader.
Amendment 61 is consequential to amendment 11, which removes section 18 from the Bill, and was considered by this committee at last week's session—I'm getting ahead of myself; we've gone ahead of ourselves: which removes section 18 from the Bill and was considered by this committee earlier on in the session. This amendment removes reference to section 18(1)—the power for the Welsh Ministers to make regulations to provide for a database of electoral registration information—from section 170.
Amendment 62 is consequential to amendment 36, which was agreed by the committee. The amendment provides for regulations made under the new provisions in respect of job-sharing in non-executive offices in principal councils to be subject to the affirmative Senedd procedure.
Amendment 63 responds to recommendation 26 of the LJC committee and changes the Senedd procedure for regulations made under section 93 in respect of panel performance assessments to the affirmative Senedd procedure.
Unfortunately, I do not support amendment 244. This is linked to amendment 251, which seeks to remove Schedule 1 and would prevent key elements of the Bill from being implemented, and I urge the committee not to support this amendment. Diolch, Chair.
Diolch yn fawr. I call on Caroline Jones to speak.
I will not be speaking in this section, Chair. Diolch.
Okay, Caroline. Thank you. Are there any other Members who wish to speak?
Yes, please—Mark.
Mark.
Just to clarify, I appreciate 61 is consequential to amendments we've already discussed and moved on from. As we indicated then, there was widespread support from stakeholders for the creation and maintenance of a database of electoral registration information. The Minister explained the practical issues were we to proceed with this now, but I'd be grateful if the Minister could further clarify why this could not be retained in this Bill for future implementation in regulations when those problems have been ironed out.
Okay. Thank you, Mark. Minister.
Well, as I said, I think I said in response to the original set of amendments, Mark, I absolutely want the database to go ahead, and we've been working very hard with the stakeholders on doing it, but we were not convinced at all that the provisions, as set out in the Bill, were fit for purpose, and the level of amendment that they would require, coupled with the fact that we don't think this is a good time to do it, given all the other changes and things that they're coping with, meant that we thought it was best to remove it from the Bill. But we are still working very hard on the database provisions, and there will be a need for an electoral reform Bill, whoever the next Government is, to come forward and make a number of administrative consequential amendments. So, we thought that best fitted into there.
Okay. Thank you, Minister. The question is, then, whether or not amendment 38 is agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move, then, to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies. Huw?
Support.
Okay. Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 38, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 38: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 278?
No, Cadeirydd, I don't.
Does any other Member wish to move that amendment? No. Then, amendment 278 is not moved.
Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 278 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 278 (Delyth Jewell) not moved.
Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 279?
I do not.
No. Does any other Member? No. Then, that amendment is not moved.
Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 279 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 279 (Delyth Jewell) not moved.
Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 280?
I do not. Can I just check, is that still in group 13?
Fifteen.
Fifteen. I'll just check that I've given you the right—. No. No, I don't.
You don't, okay. Any other Member? No. Then, amendment 280 is not moved.
Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 280 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 280 (Delyth Jewell) not moved.
Delyth, amendment 273.
No, I won't be moving that either. Diolch, Cadeirydd.
Okay. Any other Member wish to move that? No. Then, amendment 273 is not moved.
Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 273 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 273 (Delyth Jewell) not moved.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 95 (Julie James).
Amendment 95 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 95, in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 95 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. We move, then, to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Against.
Okay, and I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 95, there voted four in favour, one against, one abstention, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 95: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 32 (Julie James).
Amendment 32 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 32, in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 32 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 32, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 32: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 97 (Julie James).
Amendment 97 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 97, in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 97 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Okay, then, amendment 97 is agreed.
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.
Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 98 (Julie James).
Amendment 98 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 98, in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 98 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, then, we'll move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 98, there voted five in favour, one abstention, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 98: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 281?
No, I don't.
Any other Member? No. Then, amendment 281 is not moved.
Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 281 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 281 (Delyth Jewell) not moved.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 99 (Julie James).
Amendment 99 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 99, in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 99 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 99, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 99: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 100 (Julie James).
Amendment 100 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 100, in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 100 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 100, there voted four in favour, two abstentions, and it is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 100: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Group 18 contains miscellaneous amendments relating to corporate joint committees. The lead amendment is amendment 101, in the name of the Minister.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 101 (Julie James).
Amendment 101 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 101, in the name of the Minister, and call on the Minister to speak to this amendment and other amendments in this group. Gweinidog.
Thank you, Chair. As I've previously said on Part 5 on corporate joint committees, the amendments that I'm bringing forward in this and other groups refine and clarify the processes Part 5 puts in place to enable the establishment of the CJCs. However, there are no substantive changes to the rationale and policy intent proposed in the Part at introduction; they remain the same. We've previously debated amendments that provide more detail on how CJCs can be established and amended, on the nature of the some of the CJC functions, as well as consequential amendments to enable the policy intent of these functions being exercisable by CJCs to be achieved.
Many of the amendments I am putting forward here are of a technical nature, to clarify what supplementary provision can be made for the purposes of giving effect to joint committee regulations, or regulations amending or revoking them or as a consequence of them. This ensures the vires in the Part are clear and removes any potential doubt about what supplementary regulations can provide for.
Amendment 101 relates to section 74, which provides guidance about collaborative working. The amendment is simply to provide consistency in the use of terminology within the Part around a function being exercised in relation to a principal area.
Amendments 125 and 126 ensure Welsh Ministers have the flexibility to make supplementary regulations that apply to one, some or all of the CJCs. This ensures Welsh Ministers are able to make supplementary provisions that can reflect and respond to the potential for CJCs of different types. And amendments 128 and 140 are consequential to amendment 126 and reflect the removal of subsection 3, as the power to make supplementary provision will now be set out only in subsection 2. The amendments tabled also refine and expand on the list set out in section 83(5) of what supplementary, incidental, consequential or transitional provision could include.
Amendment 136 clarifies that CJC regulations or supplementary regulations made under section 83 may include matters that are supplementary or incidental to the specific core functions of a CJC. And amendment 139 allows for the payment of compensation in respect of loss suffered by any person in consequence of a function becoming or ceasing to be exercisable by a CJC.
I've previously discussed the importance of national parks playing a key role in the preparation of any SDP in their area, and later in these proceedings I am bringing forward amendments to section 81 that make it explicit that where the function of preparing a strategic development plan is specified in joint committee regulations, and any part of a national park is in the area of the corporate joint committee, the regulations must make provision about the membership of the committee by the national park authority for that national park. In light of this requirement, I propose to amend sections 85 and 86, through amendments 145 and 142, to be able to require national park authorities to provide information to the Welsh Ministers in the same way as principal councils and CJCs have to, and to require that national park authorities also have to have regard to any guidance issued by the Welsh Ministers.
In terms of the economic well-being function, we have previously debated a set of amendments that provide for an economic well-being function that can be conferred on CJCs where appropriate. It will enable a CJC that has been granted the function to do anything that it considers is likely to promote or improve the economic well-being of its area. Amendment 112, which we've already debated in group 6, provides that the Welsh Ministers will be able to place limitations on the exercise of the economic well-being function, through either joint committee regulations under section 81, or through regulations under section 83. Amendment 127 has been tabled to make explicit provision for regulations under section 83 to impose such limitations. Amendment 143 reflects the fact that joint committee application is a defined term, and the reference to section 75 is therefore unnecessary. Amendment 144 provides that the function of making an application to amend or revoke joint committee regulations, and the function of providing consent to amend joint committee regulations, is a function of the full council and not one that can be delegated to its executive. This brings the amending process in line with that for applications to establish CJCs. Diolch, Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Are there other Members who wish to speak? No.
Yes—Mark.
Thank you. Just an observation: we'll abstain on amendments 125 to 128 and 136, simply because we have concerns regarding how Ministers will use these powers and what, if any, role the Welsh Parliament will play in scrutinising any provisions made under these powers. So, we're not voting against, but we wish to register our concerns and seek clarity in these areas. Thank you.
Okay. Thank you, Mark. Minister, did you wish to respond?
No, I think I made most of that clear in my opening remarks, Chair, thank you.
Okay. Diolch yn fawr. The question, then, is that amendment 101 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will move, then, to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 101, there voted five in favour, with one abstention, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 101: O blaid: 5, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 102 (Julie James).
Amendment 102 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 102 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 102 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move, then, to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
I vote in favour. Therefore, there voted four in favour, with two abstentions, and amendment 102 is agreed.
Gwelliant 102: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 103 (Julie James).
Amendment 103 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 103 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 103 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Against.
I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 103, there voted three in favour and one against, with two abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 103: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 2
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 104 (Julie James).
Amendment 104 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 104 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 104 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 104, there voted four in favour, with two abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 104: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 105 (Julie James).
Amendment 105 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 105 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 105 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move, then, to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 105, there voted four in favour, with one against and one abstention, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 105: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 106 (Julie James).
Amendment 106 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 106 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 106 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move, then, to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 106, there voted four in favour, with two abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 106: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 107 (Julie James).
Amendment 107 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 107 in the name of the Minister. If this amendment is agreed, amendment 282 falls. The question is that amendment 107 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move, then, to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 107, there voted three in favour, two against, with one abstention, and it is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 107: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 2, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
And that means that amendment 282 has fallen.
Methodd gwelliant 282.
Amendment 282 fell.
Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 283?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 283 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 283 (Delyth Jewell) moved.
Yes, please, Cadeirydd.
If amendment 283 is agreed, amendments 108, 109, 110 and 111 fall. The question is that amendment 283 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 283, there voted two in favour, three against, with one abstention, and it is not agreed.
Gwelliant 283: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 108 (Julie James).
Amendment 108 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 108 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 108 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Against.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 108, there voted three in favour, one against, two abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 108: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 2
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 109 (Julie James).
Amendment 109 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 109 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 109 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move, then, to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 109, there voted four in favour, two abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 109: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 110 (Julie James).
Amendment 110 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 110 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 110 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 110, there voted three in favour, with three abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 110: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 3
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 111 (Julie James).
Amendment 111 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 111 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 111 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Against.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 111, there voted three in favour, one against, two abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 111: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 2
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 112 (Julie James).
Amendment 112 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 112 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 112 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 112, there voted four in favour, with two abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 112: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Group 19 relates to further provisions about corporate joint committees. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 113 in the name of the Minister.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 113 (Julie James).
Amendment 113 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 113 in the name of the Minister and call on the Minister to speak to this amendment and the other amendments in this group—Minister.
Diolch, Gadeirydd. The amendments in this group relate to the content of CJC regulations to ensure the vires in the Part are clear and remove any potential doubt about what the regulations can and cannot provide for.
So, in terms of national parks, the amendments are primarily in relation to the role of national park authorities. Amendment 114 makes it explicit that where the function of preparing a strategic development plan is specified in joint committee regulations and any part of a national park is in the area of the corporate joint committee, the regulations must make provision about the membership of the committee by the national park authority for that national park. I've already discussed the importance of national parks playing a key role in the preparation of any strategic development plan in their area, and amendment 114 confirms their membership of a CJC for that purpose. Amendment 115 is consequential on amendment 114 and seeks to make it clear that provisions in joint committee regulations about the composition of a CJC must comply with a new subsection inserted by amendment 114.
Amendment 119 enables regulations to provide a power for Welsh Ministers to give a direction to a national park authority, as well as principal councils in the CJC area, where that CJC exercises the strategic development plan function. A number of technical amendments—amendments 129 to 135, 137 and 138—have been made to the vires under section 83 to ensure that supplementary regulations made in relation to any CJC that includes national park authorities can include provisions that apply to the national park authorities as appropriate.
To ensure that there is no doubt about what a corporate joint committee can and cannot do, amendments 116 and 117 make explicit provision that the regulations can provide for CJCs to work with each other and other bodies, to exercise functions on behalf of another body, to provide staff, goods and services to another body and to do things for a commercial purpose in the exercise of their functions. Amendments 113 and 118 change the way in which the area of a CJC is described slightly in order to ensure consistent drafting across the Part and better alignment with the approach used in the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004.
Turning to the other amendments, it is not appropriate to apply political balance rules to a corporate joint committee, as it is in effect a joint cabinet in the same spirit as the current city deal arrangements, made up of the leaders of its constituent councils. In the same way, however, the holding to account of a corporate joint committee will be through the scrutiny arrangements that are put in place, and this is the appropriate place for political balance rules to apply. For this reason, I'm unable to support amendment 284.
I recognise and firmly agree with the intent of amendment 285 to ensure that CJCs are subject to the Welsh language Measure. However, I do not agree that it is necessary as the regulation-making powers in the Bill are already able to provide for this. As I've discussed previously, I intend to ensure that corporate joint committees are largely subject to the same rules and procedures as principal councils, including using the regulations establishing them to apply the same Welsh language standards as apply to principal councils. My officials have been in discussion with the office of the Welsh Language Commissioner to ensure that the regulations achieve this in the most effective way. Diolch, Chair.
Diolch yn fawr, Weinidog. I call on Delyth Jewell to speak.
Diolch, Gadeirydd. We've tabled a couple of amendments in this group that I'll speak to. So, amendment 284 would require CJCs to have political balance. This has been tabled in line with the same philosophy behind our amendments on STV, moving against majoritarian systems. The Minister referenced the city deal. Without wishing, in any way, to make a partisan argument, because that isn't the point here, that could be one of the areas where we would want to maybe combat what is happening, because both the CJC and the scrutiny committee don't reflect the wider electoral results in the local authorities concerned. Again, that isn't a party political point; it's just the inevitable result, I think, of the way that things are organised at the moment. That was the reason we tabled that amendment; it was a probing amendment. On amendment 285, I welcome what the Minister has just said and what she set out; it was tabled to ensure that CJCs have to abide by Welsh language standards. Diolch, Gadeirydd.
Diolch yn fawr, Delyth. Do any other Members wish to speak? No. Then I call on—
Yes, please.
Sorry. Mark.
Can I invite clarity from the Minister in relation to her amendment 129, the effect of which, as we heard, would allow regulations to make provision in relation to the transfer of property rights or liabilities from a national park authority to a corporate joint committee? I'd be grateful if the Minister could clarify when the Welsh Government would use such powers and how this would impact upon the functions of national park authorities. We have further amendments later that seek to ensure that CJCs can't impact on the functions of NPAs, to reflect their concerns. I simply seek clarity in the context of this amendment, therefore, accordingly. Thank you.
Thank you. And the Minister then to respond.
Yes. Thank you, Chair. As I said, Mark, earlier in my remarks, there's no intention to impinge on the functions of a national park authority; the intention is to ensure that the national park authority takes a full part in the development of the strategic development plan that impinges on their geographical area, and so we wish the regional arrangement to include the national park for exactly that reason. However, in carrying out the intentions of the strategic development plan at a future date, once it's been passed, it may be necessary to move pieces of land around and so on in order to be able to give effect to the strategic development plan. So, that's the intention. There is absolutely no intention to impinge on the functions of a national park; we want them to take a full and complete role in the development of the strategic plan that affects their geographical area, for obvious reasons.
Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Gweinidog. The question then is that amendment 113 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 113, there voted three in favour with three abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 113: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 3
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 284?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 284 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 284 (Delyth Jewell) moved.
Yes, I do, Cadeirydd.
Okay. The question is that amendment 284 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 284, there voted two in favour, three against and one abstention, and it is not agreed.
Gwelliant 284: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 114 (Julie James).
Amendment 114 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 114 in the name of the Minister. The question is that 114 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 114, there voted four in favour with two abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 114: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2
Amendment 114: For: 4, Against: 0, Abstain: 2
Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 285?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 285 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 285 (Delyth Jewell) moved.
Forgive me, Chair. Which group is this, please?
Group 19.
Yes, please.
Yes. The question is that amendment 285 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
In favour.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 285, there voted two in favour, three against with one abstention, and it is not agreed.
Gwelliant 285: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 115 (Julie James).
Amendment 115 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 115 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 115 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 115, there voted four in favour with two abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 115: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 116 (Julie James).
Amendment 116 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 116 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 116 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 116, there voted four in favour with two abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 116: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 117 (Julie James).
Amendment 117 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 117 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 117 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 117, there voted four in favour with two abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 117: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 118 (Julie James).
Amendment 118 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 118 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 118 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 118, there voted four in favour with two abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 118: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 119 (Julie James).
Amendment 119 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 119 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 119 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Oppose.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 119, there voted three in favour, one against, one abstention, and it is not—. Two abstentions. So, there voted three in favour, one against, two abstentions, and it is agreed. Sorry, yes, it is agreed. Amendment 119 is agreed.
Gwelliant 119: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 2
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 120 (Julie James).
Amendment 120 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 120 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 120 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we move them to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 120, there voted three in favour with three abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 120: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 3
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 121 (Julie James).
Amendment 121 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 121 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 121 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 121, there voted three in favour with three abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 121: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 3
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 122 (Julie James).
Amendment 122 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 122 in the name of the Minister. If amendment 122 is agreed, amendment 286 falls. The question is that amendment 122 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 122, there voted three in favour, one against, two abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 122: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 2
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
So, amendment 286 falls.
Methodd gwelliant 286.
Amendment 286 fell.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 123 (Julie James).
Amendment 123 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 123 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 123 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 123, there voted four in favour with two abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 123: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 124 (Julie James).
Amendment 124 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 124 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 124 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 124, there voted three in favour with three abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 124: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 3
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 125 (Julie James).
Amendment 125 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 125 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 125 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 125, there voted three in favour with three abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 125: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 3
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 126 (Julie James).
Amendment 126 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 126 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 126 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 126, there voted three in favour with three abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 126: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 3
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 127 (Julie James).
Amendment 127 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 127 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 127 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 127, there voted three in favour with three abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 127: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 3
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 128 (Julie James).
Amendment 128 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 128 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 128 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 128, there voted three in favour with three abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 128: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 3
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 129 (Julie James).
Amendment 129 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 129 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 129 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 129, there voted three in favour with three abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 129: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 3
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 130 (Julie James).
Amendment 130 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 130 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 130 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 130, there voted three in favour with three abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 130: O blaid: 0, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 6
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 131 (Julie James).
Amendment 131 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 131 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 131 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 131, there voted three in favour with three abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 131: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 3
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 132 (Julie James).
Amendment 132 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 132 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 132 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 132, there voted three in favour with three abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 132: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 3
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 133 (Julie James).
Amendment 133 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 133 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 133 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 133, there voted three in favour, with three abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 133: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 3
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 134 (Julie James).
Amendment 134 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 134 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 134 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 134, there voted three in favour, with three abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 134: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 3
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 135 (Julie James).
Amendment 135 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 135 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 135 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 135, there voted three in favour, with three abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 135: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 3
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 136 (Julie James).
Amendment 136 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 136 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 136 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore in relation to amendment 136, there voted three in favour, with three abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 136: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 3
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 137 (Julie James).
Amendment 137 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 137 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 137 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move, then, to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore in relation to amendment 137, there voted three in favour, with three abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 137: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 3
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 138 (Julie James).
Amendment 138 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 138 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 138 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore in relation to amendment 138 there voted three in favour, with three abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 138: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 3
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 139 (Julie James).
Amendment 139 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 139 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 139 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore in relation to amendment 139, there voted four in favour, with two abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 139: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 140 (Julie James).
Amendment 140 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 140 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 140 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore in relation to amendment 140, there voted three in favour, with three abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 140: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 3
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 141 (Julie James).
Amendment 141 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 141 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 141 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
In favour.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore in relation to amendment 141, there voted three in favour, with three abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 141: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 3
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Delyth, do you wish to move amendment 287?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 287 (Delyth Jewell).
Amendment 287 (Delyth Jewell) moved.
Yes, please, Cadeirydd.
Okay. The question is whether amendment 287 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 287, there voted two in favour, three against, one abstention and it is not agreed.
Gwelliant 287: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment 287: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1
Amendment has been rejected.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 142 (Julie James).
Amendment 142 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 142 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 142 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Abstain.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 142, there voted three in favour with three abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 142: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 3
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 213?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 213 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 213 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
Move.
The question is that amendment 213 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Mark Isherwood.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 213—. Delyth, how did you vote?
O blaid. For.
For.
For. Delyth is for. So, in relation to amendment 213, there voted three in favour and three against. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii) I use my casting vote in the negative against the amendment.
Gwelliant 213: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0
Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei bleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Amendment 213: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used his casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Amendment has been rejected
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 143 (Julie James).
Amendment 143 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 143 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 143 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 143, there voted four in favour with two abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 143: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 144 (Julie James).
Amendment 144 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 144 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 144 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 144, there voted four in favour with two abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 144: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Mark, do you wish to move amendment 214?
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 214 (Mark Isherwood).
Amendment 214 (Mark Isherwood) moved.
Move.
Amendment 214 then is moved. The question is that amendment 214 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
Yn erbyn.
Against.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Against.
Delyth Jewell.
O blaid.
For.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote against. Therefore, in relation to amendment 214, there voted two in favour with three against and one abstention, and it is not agreed.
Gwelliant 214: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 145 (Julie James).
Amendment 145 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 145 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 145 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Abstain.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 145, there voted four in favour with two abstentions, and it is agreed.
Gwelliant 145: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 2
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 155 (Julie James).
Amendment 155 (Julie James) moved.
I move amendment 155 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 155 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move then to a vote. Dawn Bowden.
O blaid.
For.
Huw Irranca-Davies.
Support.
Delyth Jewell.
Ymatal.
Abstain.
Caroline Jones.
Against.
Mark Isherwood.
Support.
And I vote in favour. Therefore, in relation to amendment 155, there voted four in favour with one against and one abstention, and it is therefore agreed.
Gwelliant 155: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 1
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Okay. Well, that takes us to group 20. I think we've just gone past our allotted time, and we will call a halt to proceedings at this stage, I think, today. We've dealt, actually, with quite a lot of groups and amendments. There's no prospect of us finishing all of the groups and amendments today, so I think this is a good time to halt. So, thank you all very much for your attendance and work today. The next meeting of the committee will then be on Friday 9 October where we will continue the Stage 2 proceedings for the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Bill, and that will be held in public once again through Zoom. Diolch yn fawr.
Thank you very much, Chair.
Diolch.
Diolch, Cadeirydd. Thank you. Have a good weekend, everybody.
Thank you.
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 16:26.
The meeting ended at 16:26.