National Assembly for Wales

David Anderson, director general, Amgueddfa Cymru.

Diolch yn fawr. Pedr ap Llwyd.

Diolch yn fawr. Justin Albert.

Hello, I'm Justin Albert. I'm director of National Trust Wales.

I'll ask David to come in. I'm sure you're not always this quiet. David, and then I'll bring in Justin.

Okay. Well, first of all, we kept in very close touch with the Welsh Government about the processes of lockdown and the timing of lockdown, and we were, I think, very, very swift to do this. And I have to say, our staff were absolutely brilliant. We closed down in two days, from being fully open, and we protected staff and we protected buildings. That side of it has gone very, very smoothly indeed there.

I think, in terms of liaison with Welsh Government in other areas, a really critical one for us was the discussions around furlough, and the application of furlough to us as a national institution in Wales. And, again, we had the full support of the Welsh Government in our application to Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, and we're able, thank goodness, to get that money coming through now as well. That was critically important for us.

Otherwise, as events have unfolded over the last few months—for example, over Black Lives Matter—again we've kept in very close touch with the Welsh Government and worked with them. So, I'd say that it's been a very positive relationship.

Thank you. Justin Albert?

Yes, I agree with everything my learned colleague has said. It has been a learning experience, learning as a sector, learning to work together closely, and Welsh Government has been taking a leading role. An example would be working with Cadw, who has taken a leading role with the sector, my sector of outdoor places and places, as well as Natural Resources Wales, so we could open together and share experiences in a way we have not in the past, just because we do different things, we're busy and so we don't always meet. I've felt fully informed and connected at all levels of Government within culture and within tourism, and we've been able to mutually share our frustrations and our successes.

So, it has been one of those experiences that, in this time of adversity, huge benefits are coming out in ways of working. So, I've felt informed, my teams have felt informed, but what's really important is that I can reassure my staff—we have about another 150 in Wales—that we are in communication, and Welsh Government is aware of the situation and the severity of what we're facing.

Thank you. Andrew White, and then Pedr. Andrew? You're still—. There we are.

Okay, sorry. Classic Zoom. We've been proactive in sharing our approach with stakeholders right across Welsh Government, and we conducted a survey back in March: 124 heritage organisations right across Wales responded and we shared those updates with Welsh Government ahead of publication. We also redesigned our funding to accommodate a heritage emergency fund.

In general, we've seen much greater collaboration both within the heritage sector and with Welsh Government. We continue to work with various fora, including Museums Archives Libraries Division, Cadw, the Welsh Museums Federation, to ensure that the emergency funding is going where it's most needed and to identify the gaps and signpost people to the most relevant funding sources. So, yes, we've seen a much greater collaboration during the period.

I should note that I'm heavily reliant on a briefing by my wonderful team in Wales; I'm in week five in this new position.

Pedr.

I'd like to fully echo what Pedr has said; I think that, clearly, the first requirement is to ensure the continued existence really of local museums, local libraries and other organisations as well as national institutions, but I think it's also an opportunity to step back and think about purpose, and why we have the arts and culture in Wales. The distinctive qualities of culture in Wales are things that should be internationally celebrated, not just within the nation.

If we're thinking about the connectivity between cultural organisations and communities, that has really come out very, very strongly during the last few months, and we've seen, for example, that some of the heaviest users of our websites and our social media have been local communities connected with our museums. Our Collecting COVID project has had a lot of publicity and we've already had over 1,000 online responses, filling out forms and giving us information about lives. There are very, very moving stories coming through on this.

So, I think that we're here for social justice, we're here as a support for the welfare state, we're here to support communities and we're here to really provide a way forward: a hope, we would say, really, for Wales going forward. I think that this is a real opportunity to take this as a turning point and to really bring culture and arts to centre stage and to ask a lot of us. I mean, if not much is asked, nothing much will be done; if a lot is asked, much, much more could be done, and this is the time that I think we should take that opportunity.

Thank you. Justin, I think you wanted to come in as well.

Yes. Following two brilliant people is always very difficult because they've said most of what I want to say, but there are a few points to add to that. As David said, we are about social justice and the paper that he and Baroness Andrews did many years ago around this has been the foundation of so much that we are doing in Wales around our heritage and our assets. This is £57 million, it's a Barnett consequential, and it does need to be used right. I think that, obviously, the decisions for Government to make about exactly where it is spent are for Government, but I think the details are going to be absolutely important about making that work. Remembering that everything we do around—in my view—our culture and our arts and museums is for people, this is where this money needs to be to enable, I believe, people to still have access to these things. We have learnt over this COVID-19 time how people are much more in need of beauty, of outdoor space, a break from trauma and I think this money is going to be—it's remarkable, I think it's great and I trust Government will spend it well.

Andrew, did you have anything you wanted to add to that?

To echo the sentiments, I mean it is quite early to know, even with a Barnett consequential, whether it's going to be—well, I hope it will be allocated to similar purposes as Westminster have done. There are projects that have had to be paused or funds that have closed as a result of the COVID response, and we would welcome any opportunity to plug those particular gaps, particularly on new capital revenue costs that support engagement with communities.

Thank you, all. Could you, David, just tell us a little bit more about your Collecting COVID project? David Anderson, it's a really—. I was going to ask you a separate question about that, but you've already touched on it, so if you can just tell us a little more.

Well, the first thing to say is that Wales innovated in 1937: either the very first mass observation project in the United Kingdom or jointly the first, and that project actually ran for some decades. And so we've gone back into the archives, found the entries and the submissions that carried on over that period, and we've really taken that as the inspiration for the project again.

The difference this time, of course, is that it's available digitally, which it wouldn't have been then. But I would like to stress that we know that maybe 15 per cent or so of the population of Wales don't have any significant digital access, so we've also worked very, very hard to distribute it through our community partners. We've got 120 charities and other organisations that we work with very closely across Wales. They've been our agents, our supporters, to make sure that it's reaching people who otherwise wouldn't be reached.

We've had over 1,000 responses so far. What we've agreed is that we will then, when it's safe to do so, go out on the road and collect the significant objects that people have chosen as well, and they'll become part of the national memory, really, of this COVID period. We see this as continuing, though—it's not just a COVID project. This is an ongoing project into the future, a new way of collecting for us and for Amgueddfa Cymru.

That's really interesting, thank you very much. May I bring David Melding in to ask some questions, please?

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. I've got a range of questions, they won't be fully salient to all of you, each and every one, so please don't respond if you don't have anything significant to say. The first thing I want to look at, in terms of how COVID has affected the arts and heritage sector, is, really, the impact it's had on commercial income. And then I also want to look at any effect it's had on capital investment, and that's not just buildings. It would involve, also, investing in human resources as well and using the time—the fact that facilities are closed allows you to do other things. So, initially, a response on commercial activity and then capital investment.

I'll bring Justin Albert in first.

Briefly, yes. Thank you for the question. Obviously, we closed down, and our shops, tea shops and cafes all had to close at the same time. We started opening our outdoor venues on Monday, on a booking basis. We have gone from having one of Wales's largest, I would say, restaurant chains, if you think about it, with our 20 to 30 cafes and things, to now having a grab-and-go coffee and sandwich option. We hope to be able to, within a few weeks, have a slightly larger option when we open our indoor places. So, it has had a dramatic effect on us.

It's also had an effect on those people who work with us commercially—the people who have a Volkswagen bug that they turn into somewhere from where they can sell lobster rolls on Freshwater West. We have a lot of people who live with us and use our places—outdoor pursuit companies that use the beaches—and we help them and support them. That has been a devastating one. So, yes, we will get back, but at the moment we've gone from 100 per cent to about 2 or 3 per cent at best.

Do you want a question on commercial and capital investment, or do you want to come to that later?

No, deal with it now.

So, capital investment, obviously, we do a lot of building in Wales. Millions of pounds—I think we do about £15 million a year of major, major capital projects, if not more. We've had to stop the majority of them, where we can. We just no longer have the ability to keep on financing. Obviously, when we are legally obliged, we do, or if it's for health and safety, we are. So, we made an announcement about that, and that will have a dramatic effect on us, going forward.

Thank you. Anyone else want to add on the commercial impact? Andrew, and then I'll bring others in. Andrew White.

Yes, from reviewing our funded projects, we're seeing a huge impact across a variety of different projects. They seem to be dependent on the type of client, the location and the nature of the work itself. What we have seen is that larger projects seem to be faring better, possibly because of potential repeat business and larger buying power. Smaller projects definitely seem to be suffering from supply chain issues. More remote projects, is the other key theme coming out, seem to be suffering more.

Thank you. Pedr.

Diolch yn fawr. David Anderson.

I'd like to echo what Pedr has said about the structural challenge, really, to our finances. We also carry a structural deficit, and this has come at us really very, very unexpectedly, of course. We're projecting to lose about £1.8 million of commercial income, net commercial income, this financial year. Obviously, it depends on certain assumptions about how quickly Wales will build back, but I think we're not being overly pessimistic when we say that. I think that this is why the furlough money was so critically important for us, really, because it enabled us to recover a good chunk of that. 

In relation to that commercial money, though, it's not just the shops and cafes for us; it's also the events that we run. And, on top of that, there are also the changes of the structures of funding. Many of the funders that we normally apply to for funding have, quite rightly in many ways, changed the structure of and the priorities for their giving and, again—quite rightly—are giving more perhaps to the organisations that are not Government funded, rather than those that are. But, nevertheless, it has had an impact on us as well. 

I think, in terms of capital, it should be stressed that we've got a capital maintenance backlog of in excess of £60 million for our eight sites. And some of these works are absolutely essential works that have to be done very quickly; others could be done over a 10-year period. But I think that we've, in a way, inherited, historically, a lack of investment in our buildings, and there will be consequences to that in the long term. And, like Pedr, we've had to put some of our works on pause there. We very, very much hope that the commitment that the Welsh Government has made over the last two years to capital investment will be able to continue after this as well. 

One other commercial impact I want to stress, though, which is not actually museums, but is the knock-on for Wales, is we attracted until March nearly 2 million visitors a year, and nearly half of those are from outside Wales. The economic impact for Wales each year is about £83 million gross value added. So, we're giving back more than four times as much into the Welsh economy as it's costing the Welsh Government to pay for us to run each year. 

Now, that GVA, of course, is the knock-on effect on the tourist economy in Wales—the hotels, the other tourist attractions that people visit, things like that. That, also, will be a huge loss, and, for me, jumping ahead, one of the absolutely critical things is for us to rebuild our visitors to our museums—and, again, for the local museums as well as the national ones—because that helps to pay for Wales altogether. We are a driver of economic development for Wales in all sorts of ways, not, actually, a net cost at all.

Thank you. David Melding.

Thank you. They were very rich answers—well, actually, 'rich' is probably not the right word, but, anyway, they were very interesting answers, and I'd like to follow up if I had time, but I must move on, as we have only a set amount of time.

I want to look at conservation and archiving work, how that's gone on, those who are engaged in it, and then, also, educational activities. Because I think some organisations really have responded well in terms of providing that and that's not just to the formal education environment, or those who are in it, but also making things available on the net more generally. And in that regard, how has the way you've developed very quickly some new approaches—? The need to promote equality in the work—I think we've already had reference to Baroness Andrews in connection with that, and I'm quite interested in how you've been able, if you have, to weave that into this very rapid new working.

David, shall I start with you? David Anderson. Your microphone is on.

It is indeed. Yes, I made the mistake of not turning it off. I think the first thing is that, in terms of our conservation and archiving, obviously, that's a really big challenge, because we normally have our staff with the stuff inside the museum. Where it's been urgent to do so, and sometimes for the protection of works on the walls in galleries and in other locations as well, we have had staff go in in a protected way to make sure that the objects are kept safe. We've also worked closely with those museums across Wales that we've loaned objects to as well, to ensure that the works are safe with them too. We've asked our curatorial staff, likewise, to switch to much more online work around developing the knowledge around the collections. So, as far as it's possible to do so, without having the works in front of you, that work has continued. 

Education, as you probably know, is really critical for us. We get over 200,000 schoolchildren a year coming to our different museum sites and we've thrown our efforts into supporting resources for Hwb and various other learning resources—our Minecraft museum project has been incredibly popular with children. We've also—again, picking up your points about the children who can't be reached digitally—worked very closely with Llamau, Barnardo's, Children in Wales and other organisations to take opportunities and resources out through those networks—through their physical networks, if you like. And I think one of the great lessons for us, really, is that the future is blended; it's digital, but it's also physical. And it's about making the maximum opportunity, really, from a combination of those two things, because we've had to do it this time around, otherwise some really challenged kids would've been left out completely.

Thank you. Justin Albert and then I'll bring Pedr in. Justin, I think your microphone is still off, I'm sorry.

How about now? Am I clear? Sorry about that. I think—[Inaudible.] Obviously, about 80 per cent of our staff are on furlough. We look after—I think we have 10, 12 accredited museums around Wales; more than anybody else. We've had to devise a new way of looking after our collections—and these are national Welsh collections in these houses. The National Trust is a Welsh asset; let's not mistake it for anything else. We've had essential task lists; we've made sure that we have enough people doing the essential tasks, looking after the places that we have in a safe way, and it's been a huge amount of work to get there, but we have managed it, just. And the lifesaver was having furlough.

On education, we are missing the people coming to our houses, but we are lucky, because we're not really about big houses and museums like David is; we're about the outdoors. So, most of our outdoor educational visits are coming back more rapidly, even though we've had, you know, the land we hold for you in Pembrokeshire, Snowdonia and Ceredigion all closed, it's now open and we're seeing schools coming back, we're seeing visits coming back, and that's where, I think, the trust gives its most—that's where we give the most back in education.

Thank you. Pedr.

Thank you, Chair. I think I'll now ask my final questions as one integrated point. Naturally, people compare what's happening in Wales in terms of the regulations with what's happening in England—and I'm not into the business of, 'England or Wales right and vice versa wrong'—but, when you look at England, they are moving a bit quicker. Again, these are matters of degrees, and a few weeks, often, but they are moving quicker. So, museums opened again on Monday, or at least they were able to—not all have. And I think some of the National Trust sites also have been opening—for indoors, obviously, as well as out.

So, in your discussions with Welsh Government, are you comfortable about this happening fairly soon in Wales? And do you think that the type of guidance that's now going out in England about how to reopen, especially internal spaces and other facilities, is the right approach and effective guidance, then, for institutions?

Thank you, David. I'll start with Pedr. I can see hands going up.

If we can unmute again, please. You're still—

I agree, Pedr, and well said. We have been following the Welsh Government's guidelines from day one. It has diverged from what has happened in England, but it hasn't affected us in the way that we can do business as a devolved part of a large charity. It's given a lot of comfort and support, in my personal view, to the staff, and we have a lot—and also to our volunteers, of which we have 5,000, many of whom are in the more vulnerable 70 plus group. I echo that feeling that the very sensible, thoughtful way that we've looked at this crisis, and we've put the health and well-being of people first—and we're sitting here with four chief executives who have a lot of people we are responsible for, and they come first, as do our visitors, as do other stakeholders. So, actually, I feel that has been a success from my perspective. Of course, we'd love to open. We'd all enjoy to open our properties. It was very sad, on day one. We tried to see whether we could keep them open longer; we couldn't. But we will do it slowly, and we'll get there. I feel that it's been a very well-handled situation.

Thank you. David Anderson.

I think one of the things that should be stressed is that it's really important for the public in Wales that there's a degree of consistency across our different national organisations and our heritage and museums and libraries, really, so far as we can, so that people know what to expect. I think that Pedr and others have mentioned, really, the work that we've been doing in partnership with Cadw, the National Trust and others to try to ensure that consistency is there.

I would also stress that the health of our own staff is critically important in this, and we've worked very closely with them and our trade unions to try to ensure that the way we are approaching the reopening is one that the staff will be comfortable with and can have trust in, as well.

So we will, actually, in just over a week's time, start bringing staff back in to train them in how to operate under these new circumstances. In about two weeks' time, we're going to be introducing opportunities for community organisations, partner charities, local communities to come in on a controlled basis to test out the systems. This is for St Fagans, I should say. On the week of—at the beginning of August, we will then have our first public visits arranged, and we're doing it by asking people to either book online or book by telephone. We've got two different systems there, as well. We'll monitor it as we go.

We're going to open the historic environment part of St Fagans first, but our aim is, by the end of August, to have all of our museums reopened in a controlled way, not necessarily every element. I think it's probably going to be a long time before we're taking people down into Big Pit, into the underground tour, for obvious reasons. And it's worth mentioning, as well, that every single museum is different and has its own conditions. Pedr mentioned the constrained spaces, and we have to look at each area we're opening for the public with this in mind.

I personally think that the collaboration there's been between the Welsh Government and the historic bodies has been very, very close and very, very trusting on both sides, really, and collaborative, and I think it's the right thing to do. I would just say that my own personal experience is that England has always got the capacity to surprise us with its decisions on occasion. 

That's an interesting point. Andrew, would you like to come in?

I would just add to what's been said—that the issues we're hearing from our stakeholders go beyond the variations of regulations. And they include, as Justin, David and Pedr have already mentioned, the availability of staff in the first place—it's great news that the schools are going to be reopening in September, I say as a parent with a child playing Fortnite loudly in the background—the volunteer base, particularly where sites are reliant on older volunteers, for instance, or a cohort that may be shielding, and just the sheer economic viability of reopening for many projects while social distancing is required. And on top of all that, then, we're all coming out psychologically of lockdown, and visitor confidence—the figures there being low, and needs to be catered for.

Thank you. I'll turn to John Griffiths now—I think some questions about workforce and staff, which you've already touched on, but we'd like to know more. John.

Yes, diolch yn fawr. Some questions about your workforces, really, and how appropriate and adequate Government support has been. First, perhaps, we could start with the furlough scheme, which obviously is very significant indeed, and if you could tell us what proportion of your staff have been furloughed, that would be a good starting point. Justin, did you say 80 per cent in your organisation?

You're still on mute, Justin.

It should be off now. I don't know why I'm muting myself. Yes, at our peak, we were 81, 82 per cent. We're not there now, but that was at our peak, when we had all our properties closed and we were just on the bare essential staff. 

What would be the figure for Wales at the moment, Justin?

Significantly lower. I think we're probably in the mid-60s. I'm not quite sure, but I can get an answer back to you. We have only started opening our outdoor—a couple of properties on Monday. So as we open more properties, we will bring more people back onto staff and onto teams, and as more of our projects start up, we will bring more people back onto those. 

I see. Could you tell us who met the costs of the staff that were furloughed?

We topped up to 100 per cent.

You topped up to 100 per cent. Okay. And are you confident, Justin, that all the staff will return before the end of the furlough scheme at the end of October?

I don't know. We're in the middle right now of—. The whole trust lost a significant—well, over £200 million, which is a dent. If you think of the size of Wales as being one of the major devolved parliaments, you get an idea of how much money we've lost. We are in the middle of a substantial reset programme right now to look and see what the future looks like, and I can't judge what that will be. 

Okay. Could I have answers to those same questions from all of you, please? Perhaps David would go next. 

I think it's worth saying that approximately 100 of our staff have not been in work because they themselves have got underlying health conditions, or they are shielding family members or close friends as well. So, that has been a factor in our thinking, really, about this. We have furloughed about nearly 40 per cent of our staff, and one of the major purposes of course for this is that, so far as we can, we want to try and protect jobs into the future, and we want to try and protect the organisation as well. So, I do want to pay tribute to the staff who are being furloughed, because they're making a huge contribution by doing what they're doing to the organisation as a whole. I do think that it's important to mention also that we have our paid staff, but we also have about 1,300 volunteers who work for us each year, and many of those are people who are working with us through our partnerships with the charities that I mentioned before—Llamau, the Wallich, Drug Aid Wales and others like that. It's been extremely hard for them to have been deprived of the opportunity of working with the museum at different sites, and we have tried to keep in touch with them through the partner organisations because, obviously, one of the other consequences of the present situation is the mental health challenges it can bring. We're very mindful of the potential impact on really, really valued volunteers through all this as well. So, it is actually quite complicated and it goes beyond the paid staff for us. 

And you would have topped up the wages of paid staff. 

Absolutely, yes. We're well aware that some of the London national museums attempted to avoid topping up and, in the end, were required to do so. But no, we've always been completely clear about the principle of this, and we have a collective agreement with our trade unions that we both put together to protect the interests of staff, as well as the organisation. 

And would you able to say what the position is likely to be at the end of October in terms of all furloughed staff returning to work? 

It's very hard to say, really, because, of course, one of our objectives in this is to sustain the finances of the organisation as well. I think that we know that we won't be able to fully reopen our sites, probably even into the autumn as well. We're getting started on the process. So, I think there is a question of how many staff should be on site, how safe it will be for their health for them to be on site, and I think that's another factor that we'll bear in mind. But if there's been some miracle drug by then, it may change. 

Okay. Perhaps Pedr—. 

Diolch yn fawr. Andrew, do you want to add anything to that from the point of view of the wider sector? 

We've not furloughed any staff; we have, as an organisation, brought in some flexible working practices to accommodate particularly parents or people who are shielding. What we have seen from a review of the applications is that just over half of our applicants—53 per cent—are using the job retention scheme. We also see there's a potential for redundancies within the heritage sector, given the barriers to full reopening and income generation, perhaps, in the medium-term future. 

Diolch. John.

A final question from me on freelancers. Could you tell us what proportion of your staff in your sectors are freelancers, and whether the support that's available for them in employment terms is sufficient? Who would like to start?

If we perhaps start with Andrew, because you might have a perspective from some of the other projects that you fund as well. 

I could get you an analysis, percentage-wise, but we do definitely receive applications and continue to support our grantees to pay staff, including many freelancers. 

Thank you. Justin, are any of the National Trust—? Or are all of yours direct employees?

Most of ours are direct employees. What I can do is I can find out the exact answer for you and I will give a written answer back. I don't know the answer to that.

Pedr, David, is that the same for you?

David. 

I would say probably something very similar, really. We do have a number of staff who are retired—mine are guides, for example, who come back and do shifts for us—and those core staff we have continued so far to furlough and to pay their wages, pay the top-up.

That's helpful. Anything else from you, John?

No, that's fine. Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. 

Diolch yn fawr. And just to inform—John Griffiths will need to leave the meeting, I think, at 2.30 p.m., but will rejoin us at 3.00 p.m. Carwyn Jones. 

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Afternoon, everybody. Thank you for your contributions so far. I was going to ask you about support for the sector, if I may. First of all, we know that there are three funds that have been put in place—first of all the Welsh Government's £1 million culture and resilience fund. If I can ask you all, first of all, about that fund: first of all, how useful has it been, and, secondly, of course, what difference has that fund made at a practical level?

Who'd like to start with that? Justin, do you want to make a start with that?

I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that. We may not have used it, but I will find out exactly how we've used it and if we've used it. 

Thank you. Pedr, David, who is—? Pedr.

Diolch. David. 

We haven't made use of that either. I'm not sure we're eligible, actually, to do so.

Thank you. Andrew, any of your—? No. You don't even need the microphone for that. Carwyn.

Any of you made any use of that? No. 

I refer to my initial answer, no, but—[Inaudible.].

Of course. Carwyn. You're getting through this section really fast. [Laughter.]

It's the rapier-like cross-examination, Chair. The third fund I wanted to look at is the National Lottery heritage emergency fund. That's £50 million. Do we know—perhaps Andrew can tell us—how much that money's been distributed in Wales?

We do. I'm just going to refer to my notes so I can share it with you. The fund closes on 31 July, it opened on 15 April. In Wales, to date, we've had 40 applications, with a total ask of £1.5 million—just shy of £1.5 million; just five applications out of the total were ineligible. Almost a quarter of the applications that we received have been received since 29 June. We have something like £900,000 worth of projects that we expect to be discussing and assessing within the next two to four weeks, and that's what we know and what's already in right now. We are expecting there to be more. I sit on the emergency fund panel every Monday morning with my colleagues across the UK and this coming Monday is a bumper week.

David, I think—. Did I see you indicating to come in on that, David Anderson?

You did, yes. Thank you. I should have perhaps responded to Carwyn slightly more than just give a nod, really, which is to say that my understanding of the £300,000 fund for local museums is particularly targeted to the independent museum sector, and I think it's worth while remembering that local museums are very different kinds of beasts and different institutions. I think if one looks at the local authority museums, the period of greatest risk may yet be before us; in other words, it may be in the future rather than absolutely imminently now. And I think that one of the challenges, really, for Wales is to take that one-year, two-year horizon for sustainability as well as the most immediate, 'Are they going to close now, or are they not?'

And just really to echo what I said before: the local museums are an essential part of the museum ecosystem in Wales, and we as a national museum and the local museums work closely together. I think in the future, we will be working much more closely together still, and we're very often the place where people first learn to love culture. Before they even come to St Fagans or National Museum Cardiff, or Llanberis, or Drefach, their very local museum is their first inspiration, and I think we really would be impoverished if those resources are lost even further.

Justin.

Can you hear me? I've not muted myself again, good. It's a really good question. With my National Trust hat on, I don't know the answer. I think we have heritage lottery in the wider picture, but the trust also works with a lot of other local trusts around the area, and I'm actually a trustee of a couple of them, and this fund has been a psychological lifeline, as well as a potential financial lifeline for so many. The panic—I think 'brutal panic' is two words I would use around a lot of the smaller heritage trusts who are put together by individuals who have been saving for years, and getting local communities to put money in, and they suddenly saw all their hard work for a community potentially going away, and this fund has been, and will be, I think, a godsend. So, obviously, we'll look to see how it's going to be developed; I'm very glad people are applying for it. So, with my non-National Trust hat on, but somebody who believes in local, like David does—local heritage has been essential to Wales and how we look after our towns. I see it as hugely beneficial.

Thank you. Carwyn.

Thank you. Just to come back and what Andrew said there: obviously, I don't expect Andrew to tell me who's been successful, who's bid under the emergency fund, but can you give us an example of the kind of—[Inaudible.]—gap that's being plugged by the heritage emergency fund?

Andrew.

Absolutely. And I should also note that the fund itself, the emergency fund, has evolved over the past 12, 14 weeks to greater amounts, plus now we're looking much more towards reopening costs, and after 31 July we will undoubtedly have something—if it's HEF 2, or whatever—that will meet the growing and evolving needs. Examples of projects, for instance, would be—and they are varied; it's a pleasure to see the variety of applications that come in—Tenby Museum and Art Gallery, for instance, had a small grant to support employment costs for a member of staff; Llantrisant Guildhall has received money just recently; North Wales Wildlife Trust also received a substantial grant to support staff costs to keep them going during the emergency period.

Thank you. Carwyn.

Thanks for that. Just two more issues I wanted to explore: where are the gaps and how might they be—if there are gaps, how might they be addressed?

Gaps in the support, that is, yes?

Yes.

Anyone like to step in to that? David.

I think the gap's probably around the differences between the sectors—certainly for the museum sector, anyway, and I think that means timescales, as I was saying. 

Sorry, we've frozen David for a minute.

[Inaudible.]—£59 million question, really. It's really important we don't simply rewind to where we were in March 2020. There is a chance to invest differently and to invest more strategically, perhaps. And I know a number of organisations would like to think that yes, we need the money, and the money that's there is really, really important, but we'd like also to have the flexibility to think about investing for the longer term. I'm thinking, for example, that an organisation like ours badly, badly needs to invest in our digital systems and infrastructure, and this is very, very expensive and it shows relatively little in six months or a year, but in five years or 10 years, it's the basis for the learning systems, the community engagement work in every community in Wales. In other words it's long term, and I think we really must look long term on our funding.

I would say this as well: I think it's important that funders look at which organisations are really committed to social inclusion, to social justice, to making sure that the money is actually going to making a change in communities and so supporting our communities. I think in Wales this is something we don't need to be afraid of because we do an awful lot of it already. If I look across the border, I can see institutions who are, bluntly, going to get a lot of money, I think, but don't actually have those commitments. So, purpose, purpose, purpose for me, really, is the essence of all this, and the willingness to do things differently and then to invest differently in the process of it. This has to be the point of change.

Thank you. I can see a lot of support for that. Justin, and then I'll bring in Pedr.

Two points—it's a really good question. I would echo, really strongly echo David's point that we will never go back to February 2020, and anyone who is looking at financing or looking at themselves going back to that position is fooling themselves and will probably be wasting money. I see the gap—one of the gaps is that we need to reward those organisations that work together, and I think we still have that Welsh problem sometimes, as we are a wonderful nation but we're still smaller than Birmingham, and we shouldn't be working disparately. And the rewarding organisations that work collaboratively, that share functions, share back offers, share so we don't spend money—that the money goes to where it needs to on the front line, the cutting edge, to the coal face. I think that's really the gap I see on those two points.

Thank you. Pedr.

David, I think you wanted to come back in, and then Andrew, if Andrew has anything to add. David Anderson. David.

Yes. I'd really like to echo that; I think it's a fundamental point and it goes back to what I was suggesting earlier on, that I think one of the transformations needed is that we're recognised as being a support for the welfare state in Wales, and that this is not a marginal part of that work, that culture is actually about health, it is about learning, it's about addressing poverty, and the Fusion programme is already running—could be expanded much more.

It's about international work as well too, of course, and like Pedr, we've been working in the health sector for some time now. During this COVID crisis, we've been working with Hywel Dda University Health Board, and we've been moving works—taking works of art in reproduction into the field hospitals and other locations; working with the healthcare workers themselves to choose the works that they want from our collections to be seen there. They're all carefully laminated, and they're wiped clean at very, very regular intervals. But they're there as images that are chosen because they relate to the locality of the hospital and the patients who come in can see some connectivity with the world outside through that too.

So much of culture is about feeling, about heart and about connection, and about identity. Through the educational work, through the health work and through the relationship with communities, we can strengthen that work that we do and not regard ourselves as being citadels in cities in Wales, but actually part of, and existing in, communities. It's a big task, but nevertheless it's one I think we've really got to take on now.

Thank you. Andrew, in terms of those gaps.

Yes, in terms of the gaps, we're currently conducting a review of the fund right across the UK, which I'm leading on—on the inclusivity piece. We've identified that those gaps are the community voices, perhaps—the smaller projects. What we're trying to do, as David said, culture is about connection, it's about heart and it's about identity. Recent events have given us all a wake-up call and prompted us all to act differently, to learn to be better allies and advocates for change. For me—for us—the real gaps are in those community-led projects, many of them being smaller projects.

That sounds really interesting. I'm sure the committee would be very interested in the outcome of that review. I think that will tell us a lot. We're going to come on in a moment to some questions about the future, and that work will be very helpful to inform us there. Justin, I think you wanted to come back in on that.

There's one gap that hasn't been filled, I guess, and that's the enormous success of the Hay Festival this year, which is a cultural and heritage asset, supported by the Welsh Government, and delivered four or five times the number of people from around the world, looking and partaking of being part of Wales. That's a gap we didn't know existed. So, there are some things where there were gaps that we've been able to close during it, so that's a very positive one.

Thank you. Carwyn.

Yes, apologies for the appearance of the dog in the background. I think he can open doors, and I think you're now hearing the water pump that sits in the cupboard behind me, but there we are—professional studio. One final question from me, and it is for Justin: Justin, I know that the trust has called for a platform to leverage funding schemes. Can you just expand a little bit on what that proposal means?

Sorry, could you repeat the question?

Yes, it's the noise in the background. As I understand it, the trusts have created, or called on the Government, rather, to create a platform to leverage funding schemes. Is that right? I'm just wondering what that means.

Yes. I don't know it in great detail, and that's for the UK Government—

Ah, right.

—around the green economy, and the ask for money around the green economy. We are echoing that in Wales through, actually, David Henshaw's working group, around how we can do that. But, I will find more information and detailed information and I'll get that in writing to you.

That would be really helpful, thank you. Anything further from you, Carwyn?

I'm okay, thank you, Chair.

If I can turn to Mick now, we've already begun to talk a bit about the future, and that's where Mick's questions are going to focus. Mick.

Yes, thank you very much. You have touched on some of the areas around the future, and, of course, the future is incredibly unpredictable at the moment. I'm going to just focus on a few themes that have come through that relate to the future. I was very pleased that you mentioned, for example, Llantrisant Guildhall, because I know how important the support has been there. I look around, also, at the comments that have been made about the smaller museums. If you look around Nantgarw, that's a fantastic museum on the pottery there that has actually really been quite innovative of late in terms of the way it has been using social media to promote the whole concept of the work on which it's based, and, again, there's the Rhondda Heritage Park and so on.

So, all of those are fundamentally important, but they also seem to be fundamentally important now to the new curriculum—the education side. I'm glad that that was mentioned. I wonder, in terms of going forward, how you see the link between education and all of the cultural activities and heritage activities that are taking place. Because if Welsh history is now to be at the core of that, we also risk the danger of Welsh history being the global Welsh history, as opposed to the very localised community history as well. How do you see that as being potentially something that will develop in the future, bearing in mind all the skills that we've now learnt of different ways of operating?

Who'd like to start with that—David, perhaps, David Anderson?

Yes, I will. It is now several decades since I was last a history teacher in the classroom, so I won't feel as though I really speak with very, very close engagement with the teaching in the classroom at the moment. I do think that there is a very serious point about that Welsh history being really deeply embedded in the curriculum in Wales. I think that there's a really key role for ourselves, the library and other institutions to really work hard to make sure that those resources are being developed, and we have had conversations with the Books Council of Wales, for example, about being able to use our resources to develop curriculum materials that they can provide. 

I also think that it's really critically important that, while taking the point about global history, actually, global history has been here in Wales for centuries in one form or another, and the Black Lives Matter campaign and protests remind us that the black community in Wales is not something that's happened since Windrush. These are communities that have been here for many, many decades, even a century or two before then. We know there are lots of histories that have not really been brought forward into the light, and if we're to be a global nation, which I dearly hope that Wales will more and more become, it's essential that we understand ourselves better and our connection with the past. 

So, I think we've got a huge task over the next 10 years of mining our own collections, reinterpreting our own collections, enabling everybody who's in schools in Wales to see their own identity in those collections as well—and at the moment, it's not sufficiently the case.

Thank you. Would anyone like to add to that? Pedr, and then Justin.

Diolch, Andrew. Justin.

Yes. I think I mentioned that most education happens outside. But, of course, looking after some of the great treasure houses of Wales—we've been calling them 'treasure houses' when, actually, the stories behind these houses are extraordinarily challenging. We're now in the tenth year of working around Penrhyn, which is one of the most challenging histories we have anywhere in Wales, with not just the longest strike in European in history, but also the legacy of slavery from Jamaica and the family that built that home.

We could do two things. We could try and erase that and try and sanitise it so that it doesn't offend people, but right across our properties, we try and say, 'We need to tell these stories about the bad, so that people learn and learn from them.' There is still that idea that you can have an amazing experience in a very beautiful place, looking at works of art, and that's one level of experience, but we have to be very, very forthright in telling the stories of where the money came from and where the families came from. We had the same issue with Powis castle and many of our houses. So, that's our educational guide: it's not telling people things, it's allowing people to learn from the experience and learn from being in these places.

Forgive me for one second, I use the example of some of the great museums in America where they aim their experience depending on age, and you can have different experiences. If you go to Penrhyn, we very proudly had, for the first time, the Bethesda choir singing last year and the year beforehand, and to me that's one of the biggest successes we've had: to bring a community back into a place that was really, I would say, damned for a long time.

Thank you. Mick.

Yes. Listen, thank you for that. There is, I think, a clear direction there in terms of what might be a priority in terms of investment in taking a whole new way in which our historic institutions, cultural organisations and so on, engage in the future in a more integrated way with many other aspects, and education in particular. What do you think are the aspects of your work at the moment that are most at risk of being lost as a result of the economic and financial crisis that we have?

Who'd like to start on that? We need to know the downsides so that we can be advocating.

David or Justin, do you want to come in on what the potential threats to your—? David, and then I'll bring Justin in.

I think some of the issues that Pedr has outlined are exactly the same for us. The real value of our grant in aid has dropped, I think, by somewhere near 30 per cent in the last decade or so. We've done everything we can to generate commercial income to compensate for that, but we've just discussed, an hour or so ago, what's happened to our commercial income. So, we're a bit of a squeeze on that one.

Two things, really: I think the first one is sustaining the core—you know, the institutions—and I would say this for the local museums, again, as well as the national museum. I think that one of the consequences of the ways in which funding has been squeezed is that the infrastructure, in all sorts of ways, has decayed, physically decayed, and the investment simply hasn't been there in growth and change, for example, in digital infrastructure too. It's very easy to compare across the border, really, and it's worth remembering that the national museums in London get, very often, 50 per cent of their funding from private sources, not grant in aid, so they have a great advantage in this way. But, nevertheless, we haven't had the opportunity to reinvest that we really needed to have in the last decade. And I think that we are world leaders in engagement in culture, in cultural democracy, cultural rights, and it's something that's, in a sense, embedded in Wales, really. We could really capitalise on that in the ways in which we work if we had better infrastructure to work from.

My vision for 10 years' time will be that we will be present in every one of the 900 communities in Wales digitally, but also, in some ways, physically; that every school child will have had the chance to experience museums—not just our museum, but museums—many times during the 12 or whatever years that they're in school; that the most challenged communities are the ones who we're working most closely with, not the ones who are least represented in our audiences; and that the black communities can say that they can see themselves there in every museum, they can come into a museum and see representation of their culture there.

I think that we should really be setting ourselves some very, very big challenges as a sector, because, compared with spending on many other areas of public service, it's not big—it really is not big—but the impacts are huge. And as I've said before, we're actually an economic giver to Wales; we're not an economic drainer. It's worth investing economically, even before all these other social, educational, health and poverty challenges are being addressed, which we really are doing and should do much, much more. So, I think we've got to make this leap, we've got to make this commitment, and we need the investment from Government, which is not huge, to enable us to do so. And it has to be local as well as national.

Andrew, I could see you nodding to a lot of that.

Yes, and we're obviously in a different situation. What I would say in terms of the risks for us—we parked, if you like, or paused 27 projects in Wales in a pipeline that we'd been trying to diversify and successfully been diversifying. Those projects, as a result of the emergency fund, have been parked. That's around £1.7 million of projects withdrawn. That's a risk for us—that those projects might never come back. Some of them might have been, due to the nature of the projects, adversely affected, or their community has been adversely affected by COVID. So, for us, that's one of the big risks.

Thank you. Justin. Still on mute—

Obviously, we're not Government funded. We are largely funded by entrance fees, commercial and a strong membership now. It was, before COVID-19, over 110,000 members in Wales, and we appreciate every single one.

I think, as I go back to the original point, unless we learn to work together as a cultural sector and refer to 'us' rather than 'me'—that 'we' do this together; I'm going to David's point around the local museums being as important as St Fagans—and that this collective, working together, and organisations like Andrew's that spanned the historic sector and the cultural sector are vitally important to us going forward, my biggest fear is that we are going to, whatever happens, whatever we can do in Wales, hit a period of austerity. And I cannot see our sector being able to survive that again. I fear that we will lose skills, we will lose the ability to rebuild, the ability to interpret the bumps and the grounds and the hills, and we will lose our history, because people will leave us, or they won't be trained, or they'll find another job.

And in my own world of television, we'll lose what we call story-tellers—those people who can inspire people around them—and, ultimately, what the people on this telephone call are are story-tellers, whether it's the library, it's museums or the lottery, that's what we do; we inspire people, tell stories that inspire people to look after their places. So, that's my biggest fear.

Thank you. I am aware that we've run over by a few minutes. Are witnesses still happy to stay with us for just a few minutes more? Is that okay? I know people's time is precious. Mick. Thank you.

There are some very important points there, I think, on digital infrastructure and collaboration—

I don't think there is a need to rush, Mick, if witnesses are happy to stay, because we've got—. Our slot is—. So, over to you.

Okay. We've covered most of the points I think that we can practically cover, and there are some really important points on the issue of digital infrastructure, the collaboration and so on. In terms of Welsh Government policy, of course, you've all made the comment about how important it is that this £59 million is used—we'll have to see how it arrives and emerges, but how it's used by Welsh Government. Part of the purpose of this report and this inquiry is to try and influence Government policy and to produce practical recommendations that can be implemented. If I was to say to each of you, 'Look, if there were, on your wish list, just one or two things that should change in respect of Government policy now', if you were able to, what would they be? 

Who wants to start? If it's three rather than two, you'll be forgiven. David Anderson. Can you unmute yourself, David, sorry?

I think it's a point that's been made already, but it's worth making again: we are not an isolated sector. We are part of health, we're part of education, we're part of challenging poverty, and we need, with the support of our own departments in Governments, to be working very, very closely with those other departments, and we can therefore make much more change if we do that, and we need new skills in our staff to do it, but that's what we're developing anyway. So, I would say the big thing is—echoing, in some ways, what Justin was saying—we are part of the bigger whole. We should not be corralled as being a narrow definition of culture. We need to rethink culture, rethink museums, libraries and other cultural organisations, and be present in communities. It's as simple as that. 

And if I can press you a little bit, what, if anything, does Welsh Government need to do in terms of its approach and its policy to help you to get to that?

I would say that what we all need, really, is that we agree work programmes, we're actually made responsible for delivering on work programmes, into the curriculum, working with the health boards and working with the health system, really, as well. We're about well-being, we're about wellness, and that's going to be the future for a lot of health as well. So, I think I said earlier on, if little is asked of us, little will be delivered. If a lot is asked of us, and we're challenged, I think we'll step forward for it. So, give us the KPIs, give us the big vision of what we can do on health across the whole of Wales, and then give us the infrastructure to be able to deliver it. It would be transformative.

So, clear expectations of you in new ways of working. Andrew, I'm going to give you the magic wand now. What would you like us to be recommending that Welsh Government needs to do differently or more of?

Well, what an opportunity. 

With no notice, either, no chance to think about it, of course. 

I'm sure the First Minister will appreciate my advice. From our perspective, it's continued investment in future generations. It's about being inclusive, so that the people of Wales—all the peoples of Wales—feel that their heritage, their built environment and their natural surroundings not only belong to them, but are relevant to them, accessible to them, and tell a story of our wonderful, inclusive nation's culture and heritage. 

And is there anything specific that you think the Welsh Government—? I'm picking up on David's point about clear expectations of the sector—is there anything else that you think that we need to be asking Welsh Government to do? 

I think I'd agree with David's point there about KPIs being clear. We're in a situation where we do have KPIs and letters of association given to us every year. These are all changed. I think they need to be—. The situation in which we operate has changed dramatically, and these need now to be done in a post-COVID way that moves us to whatever the new normal is going to be. 

That's really helpful. 

Diolch, Pedr. Justin, how could the Welsh Government help do more? What should we recommend? 

I agree with everybody; I joined the trust based upon Octavia Hill's vision of why she formed it, which was just to give access to those people who need it most to the outdoors, to beauty, to place. We took on these big houses later on, but the basic function of Octavia Hill, the great social housing pioneer, was to help those who needed it most, and that's why I joined the trust. That's what we do in the trust, and if there's anything I need the Government to do—I'd echo what everyone around here has been saying—and it's a rather loud message, is: put it in that, put it in ways that takes the elitism out of culture, that makes our culture much more arms wide open, that nobody feels out, that everyone feels welcome—challenged, yes, but challenged not because who they are but possibly because of the stories that are being told.

I hate hearing stories about people coming to my places or the forests we look after, or a house or a museum or a library and not feeling welcome. And we want to welcome—we really do everything in our hearts to make people welcome, but people still don't feel welcome. I spend a lot of time talking to communities who are not Welsh—Bangladeshi communities in Conwy of all places—and they would love to be more engaged. They don't feel welcome. If we can do anything to make people feel more welcome in our places, if I had my golden wish, that's what it would be.

Thank you. I think we would all be wanting to convey very clearly to those communities that they are Welsh indeed, and that their heritage is ours and ours is theirs. Thank you very much. Anything further, Mick? 

I'm tempted, Chair, but, no, I think I'm really appreciative of the quality of the answers and the vision that's within them as well. 

Happy.

Diolch yn fawr.