Y Pwyllgor Cyllid - Y Bumed Senedd

Finance Committee - Fifth Senedd

09/01/2020

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Alun Davies AM
David Melding AM Yn dirprwyo ar ran Nick Ramsay
Substitute for Nick Ramsay
Llyr Gruffydd AM Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Mark Reckless AM
Mike Hedges AM
Rhianon Passmore AM
Rhun ap Iorwerth AM

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Alex Chapman Ymgynghorydd, Sefydliad Economeg Newydd
Consultant, New Economics Foundation
Andy King Aelod o'r Pwyllgor Cyfrifoldeb Cyllidebol, Swyddfa Cyfrifoldeb Cyllidebol
Budget Responsibility Committee Member, Office of Budget Responsibility
Anna Nicholl Cyfarwyddwr Strategaeth, Cyngor Gweithredu Gwirfoddol Cymru
Director of Strategy, Wales Council for Voluntary Action
Cathy Madge Arweinydd Ysgogi Newid, Swyddfa Comisiynydd Cenedlaethau'r Dyfodol Cymru
Lead Change Maker, Office of the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales
Dr Helen Tilley Uwch Gymrawd Ymchwil, Canolfan Polisi Cyhoeddus Cymru
Senior Research Fellow, Wales Centre for Public Policy
Dr Victoria Winckler Cyfarwyddwr, Sefydliad Bevan
Director, Bevan Foundation
Eurgain Powell Ysgogwr Newid, Swyddfa Comisiynydd Cenedlaethau'r Dyfodol Cymru
Change Maker, Office of the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales
Robert Chote Cadeirydd, Swyddfa Cyfrifoldeb Cyllidebol
Chairman, Office for Budget Responsibility

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Bethan Davies Clerc
Clerk
Christian Tipples Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Dr Edward Jones Cynghorwr Arbenigol
Expert Adviser
Joanne McCarthy Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Leanne Hatcher Ail Glerc
Second Clerk
Owen Holzinger Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Samantha Williams Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod am 09:15.

The public part of the meeting began at 09:15.

2. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
2. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Bore da, bawb, a blwyddyn newydd dda i bob un ohonoch chi. Croeso i gyfarfod diweddaraf Pwyllgor Cyllid y Cynulliad. A gaf i hefyd groesawu David Melding, sydd yma yn dirprwyo ar gyfer Nick Ramsay? A gaf i nodi bod yna glustffonau ar gael, wrth gwrs, ar gyfer cyfieithu, os oes angen, neu ar gyfer addasu lefel y sain? A gaf i atgoffa Aelodau i sicrhau bod unrhyw sain ar eu dyfeisiadau electronig wedi'i diffodd? A gaf i ofyn a oes gan unrhyw Aelodau fuddiannau i'w datgan? Dim byd, iawn, dyna ni.

Good morning, everyone, and a happy new year to everyone. Welcome to this latest meeting of the Finance Committee at the Assembly. Could I also welcome David Melding here, substituting for Nick Ramsay? Could I note that there are headsets available for translation or for sound amplification? Could I remind Members to ensure that any electronic devices are on silent? Could I ask whether Members have any interests to declare? No, thank you very much.

3. Papurau i'w nodi
3. Papers to note

Mae yna ddau bapur i'w nodi, sef dau set o gofnodion o gyfarfodydd y pwyllgor yma a gynhaliwyd ar 11 Rhagfyr a 18 Rhagfyr y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. A ydy Aelodau'n hapus i nodi'r papurau hynny? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

There are two papers to note, namely two sets of minutes of the meetings held on 11 December and 18 December last year. Are Members content to note those papers? Thank you very much.

4. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer 2020-21: Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2
4. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2020-21: Evidence session 2

Iawn, wel, ymlaen â ni, felly, at brif eitem gyntaf ein cyfarfod ni yr wythnos yma, sef, wrth gwrs, i barhau â'r gwaith o graffu cyllideb ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer 2020-21. A gaf i groesawu ein tystion ni ar gyfer y sesiwn gyntaf yma y bore yma? Croeso i Victoria Winckler o Sefydliad Bevan, i Helen Tilley o Ganolfan Polisi Cyhoeddus Cymru, ac i Anna Nicholl o Gyngor Gweithredu Gwirfoddol Cymru. Croeso i'r tair ohonoch chi.

Fe awn ni'n syth i mewn i gwestiynau, os ydy hynny'n iawn gyda chi? Fe wnaf i gychwyn, os caf i, efallai, drwy ofyn: a ydych chi'n credu bod cyllideb ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru yn cynnwys strategaeth gydlynol i fynd i'r afael â thlodi?

We move on, therefore, to the main item on the agenda, which is to continue with our scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget for 2020-21. Could I welcome our witnesses for this session this morning? I welcome Dr Victoria Winckler from the Bevan Foundation, Dr Helen Tilley from the Wales Centre for Public Policy, and Anna Nicholl from the Wales Council for Voluntary Action. 

We'll go straight into questions, if that's okay? I'll start, if I may, by asking whether you believe that the draft budget of the Welsh Government includes a coherent strategy to address poverty.

Shall I go first?

I think, to answer that question, you need to understand that there are probably three different ways that a strategy can try to tackle poverty.

It can include specific measures to tackle poverty; a particular problem such as, as we have in the budget, the provision of sanitary products, free school meals, or help for holiday schemes for children on low incomes and so on. And I think the budget this year, the draft budget, has a lot more programmes and expenditure of that type. I think there are questions about the standards that might be included in that type of activity, the delivery mechanisms and whether they're of a sufficient scale, but I think we have seen quite a change since the previous budget towards including more of those specific, quite targeted interventions.

I think the second way that a budget can have an impact on poverty is in the broad shape of expenditure. So, is it spending money on the kinds of activities and public services that are used primarily by people on low incomes? You can see that we don't have the detail to really scrutinise that, although the Welsh Government has said it will be looking at distributional impact, and I think that's very welcome. But you can see some quite, perhaps, unusual things just from the data that we have got. So, for example, there's more than twice as much being spent on rail as on bus, and yet people on low incomes tend to use bus rather than rail. There's more being spent on—well, there's a substantial amount being spent on Help to Buy, I think there's £68 million, and that's a third of the amount that's being spent on the social housing grant. But we simply don't have the information in order to be able to look at that distributional impact.

And then the third way that a budget can make a difference to poverty is whether it is expending money on interventions that address the root causes. We know that the root causes are: lack of decent jobs—not enough and not well paid enough; lack of affordable housing; and the way in which the social security system operates. I think, on that measure, I would have some bigger reservations. Notwithstanding that not all of those things are within the Welsh Government's gift, I think we still, in my view, don't have enough of a focus on addressing those root causes.

So, I think the budget does more to address poverty than in previous years, but whether it's yet a coherent strategy—I don't think it's quite there yet, to be honest.

How will we know that it is a coherent strategy, because there'll be different initiatives emerging every year, won't there?

Well, I would say that the long-term focus of the Welsh Government should be on the root causes. I understand the wish to address some of the symptoms, if you like, whether that's holiday hunger or whatever, and I also understand that it's a very useful way of putting money in people's pockets. So, I absolutely don't want to be critical of those; I think they are very, very welcome. But I think if you are serious about long-term addressing poverty, you need to be doing some heavy-duty stuff around the state of the economy, around the interface of the UK social security system with devolved powers and people's lives, and around housing costs.

09:20

Okay. Would anyone else have any comments to add? Well, go on then, Alun, if you want to come in.

I wanted just to follow up on the remark you just made. Coherence is an important point, and I'm wondering whether you see the linkages between different departments. Do you get a sense that departments are doing their best, working hard, trying to make the allocations that you've described, but doing so in isolation? Or do you get a sense from reading this budget that there is a coherence in policy that isn't reflected in the budget, or that there is a lack of coherence in policy as well?

I think underlying a relative lack of coherence—. I mean, there's more joining up than there was, right, but I think underlying that is a lack of clarity about what the Welsh Government wants to do about poverty anyway. How does it define poverty? What does it see are the root causes? What are its three headline actions that it would like to take? I know there are a lot of calls out there from other organisations concerned about poverty about wanting a poverty strategy or a poverty plan. We are much more relaxed about whether or not we have one, because you can have a poor policy or strategy document; what matters is the focus of your efforts.

So, I also think it's difficult because there is so little wriggle room for the Welsh Government because of the dominance of health—. The three big—health, social care and education—just take such a big chunk. But, for example, I would like to see much more within the budget around more and better jobs. I'd like to see much more in the budget around closing the attainment gap. So, although we have an allocation, for example, for the pupil development grant, that doesn't necessarily close the attainment gap. To try and answer your question, I think there's more coherence than there was, but I think the lack of coherence comes from the lack of bigger vision, I suppose.

Yes, there's important stuff there. Rhianon, you wanted to come in as well, and then David.

You've touched upon some very interesting points this morning. In regard to the statement you made around root causes, you've gone into some more detail as to what you would like to see around the interface with benefit, social security, and in terms of more and better jobs. I'm not here to do that job, but I'm sure Welsh Government would say that they have focused upon that; they have focused upon social housing; they have focused upon the need to get to that target number. What more specifically would you like to see them do? Bearing in mind, obviously, the levers that they have at their disposal around those bigger economic issues around root causes in terms of low wages, in particular, and the gig economy. I may be straying into different territory, Chair.

The fair work agenda is very important, and we've had the report of the Fair Work Commission, and we've got legislation intended. But there is much more that can be done. So, living wage: much more could be done to increase take up in the private sector. We're actually quite concerned that some of the focus on the foundational economy is in the lowest-paid parts of the economy, and unless you couple your stimulation of that sector with boosting wages you're actually going to increase the amount of low-paid work. So, we think there could be much more done.

I don't like to draw parallels with Scotland because, 'Different country, different Government', but in Scotland there is a very active living wage campaign with accreditation not just in the public sector and third sector but in the private sector. We are way, way behind that. There are things that can be done. We'd like to see much more stimulation of decent jobs in the Valleys and in parts of rural Wales. We're concerned that the focus on cities will actually just reinforce their advantage. It is perhaps a subject for another session, but I think then you're into the content not just the balance of the expenditure.

09:25

Okay. We'll come to David, and then I would like to hear from Helen and Anna, if you have anything to add.

I just want to ask something about the process, I do apologise, on the clarity of the presentation of financial information in the budget. I certainly agree with you, I think in terms of poverty's long-term alleviation you're looking at housing and education and skills as probably the biggest levers we have, but their budgets tend to get dispersed quite a bit into many areas. Even the housing one will take you into tenant support and programmes for highly vulnerable people and such. Education and skills, perhaps more so, would come in a variety of forms, the measures that you need.

Do you think that the presentation of the information is enough for us to answer the basic question that the budget allocation in totality—for social housing and its support, and education and skills to meet attainment gaps and improve basic skills, basically, and take them up to higher and intermediate skills—is something we can look at and say, 'Well, yes, clearly, the Government has identified that, and you can see the resources flowing in greater measure because of that', or is it still a maze, and it's very difficult to match rhetoric and performance in financial decisions?

I remember saying that last year, and it is still difficult to link the Government's ambitions with its allocation of funding. I think it's easier to see this year, in that there are some headline commitments and you can track those through, and it's also easier to see because most budgets have got some level of uplift. I actually began to look at—. Because the raw figures are meaningless on their own, really, aren't they? You go, 'Oh great, an extra £10 million', but actually, if the demand is for an extra £100 million, it's not enough.

So, I started just doing some very simple benchmarking of expenditure per head, and then looking at expenditure for different age groups as well. Now, that's incredibly crude, but it gives you, then, a sense of what the budget allocation is against. So actually, particularly for health, you can see that—off the top of my head, I can't remember the figure, it's gone out of my mind—whatever the uplift is, actually per head it's not so much given the changing nature of the Welsh population. So, if you look at it for over-65s, for example. I suppose there's a question about whose job it is to do that level of scrutiny. It's easier than it was, but it's not as easy as it could be, is my answer.

Only very briefly that some of our members have fed in that they're pleased to see that poverty is back as a—it's not just prosperity, it's also looking at the poverty focus as well. I think there are many different levels of tackling poverty, and of course there are benefits and the macroeconomics. There's also a kind of bottom-up community development angle to it, supporting some of those vulnerable people outside of the employment market, et cetera, at the moment. And I know that there is some good work going on there looking at some of that. But actually following, I suppose, Communities First, we've talked about empowering communities, but, I'm not sure if there's that coherence of where does that bottom-up approach fit within the overall strategy. But we welcome the fact that there are all the different initiatives around tackling poverty.

Also, WCVA runs an active inclusion grant scheme that is distributing European funds to increase employment skills to people outside of the employment market et cetera. And, obviously, these sorts of programmes now will be closing with Brexit, and so I suppose it's important that we look at a Welsh response now to ensure that that sort of activity is maintained. 

09:30

I've just a very brief point to add to what has already been said from the other providers of evidence. I'd just like to build on the issue of the analysis of the budget information. One thing that came across very clearly in the evidence that we looked at from international experiences of gender inequality budgeting was that it is important, of course, to engage beyond Governments and, has already been said, having that feed-in from civil society and also the analysis of using the resources that are there in other sectors to feed in and provide that analysis is very valuable indeed. 

If I could turn this on its head, in one respect, what have wealthy regions got in common, which is what we haven't? Leaving aside those that are the oil-rich places et cetera, which are built on natural resources, what they've got are highly educated people. Would you agree with me that education is the most important anti-poverty measure in the long term? If we end up with a better educated workforce, then we will get better employment coming here. We have far too many people in the gig economy. We have far too many people in what was called the foundation economy, which I would call the support economy. Creating another 100 hairdressers in Swansea is not going to increase the wealth of Swansea one iota, but reduce individual people's wealth. What we need to do, don't you agree, is in the long term actually get people better educated in order that we can improve our economic output?

And on the other side of it, relating to something Victoria said, it's not just income, it's expenditure as well. Don't we need to be looking to provide more public sector housing and don't we want to take further action on dealing with some of the reasons why it's incredibly expensive to be poor? For example, the additional cost of electricity and gas. I said to a committee yesterday, which the Chair was at, that there are very poor people paying more of their income to be cold than I pay to be warm.

I think education is part of the mix. High levels of qualifications in the workforce are certainly one of the characteristics of wealthier areas and one of the characteristics of better-off people as well, because they're not necessarily the same. But we already have in Wales a significant level of underemployment of graduates. So, they have a qualification, but they're not in work that is using that qualification. And even if they were, there will always be jobs in the labour market that are the least well paid. There will always be cleaners, there will always be drivers, there will always be process operatives in factories, and someone will always do those jobs. And unless we address the terms and conditions of those jobs, so the people who are doing them, no matter what their qualifications are, have enough to live on, then we're not succeeding as a society, in my view.

And in that regard, bearing in mind one of the biggest levers around that is social security and, for instance, the diminution of working tax credits, in that type of functionality within Wales at the moment, how would you advise—or any of you contemplate these issues—in terms of how, then, Welsh Government can actually impact upon that type of an issue? Because without a shadow of a doubt, everybody in this room, I would hope, would agree that there has been a diminution in those types of support, of in-work benefits.

The value of most social security benefits has been frozen for nearly five years, so people simply get less. The eligibility has been cut back and now we have, with the roll-out of universal credit, changes in the way that it's paid. Now, some people can manage fine with that, but a lot of people can't. The consequences of that for about 40 per cent of the Welsh population are huge, and it would have been nice to have seen in the budget some recognition that this major upheaval going on in the incomes of the lowest 40 per cent of people in Wales. What is Welsh Government going to do about it? What are the consequences for housing supply and housing affordability? 

09:35

With respect, I'm asking you and, obviously, you are not Welsh Government, but you are an expert and you are a renowned organisation, as all of you are. What would your thoughts be around that? 

We've suggested that the escalator of social rents needs to stop because it's going up. The guideline puts social rents increasing above inflation and above housing benefit levels, which puts a direct squeeze on people on low incomes. We think that there are things that the Welsh Government could do to supplement that—for example, increasing the discretionary housing payment. There's a welcome increase in the budget for the discretionary assistance fund, which is great, but we've discovered that half of applications are being turned down. So, is this budget—? What am I trying to say? Is the budget providing a cushion and a buffer? Probably not, although we don't have some of the detail. We would love to be able to come up with a—. I mean, we did make some suggestions earlier this year about things that the Welsh Government could do, but we're a very small organisation.

We have a large number of areas that we wish to cover, so I think we need to move on. Mike, are you—?

It's coming up to two years since the Bevan Foundation outlined key steps for growing an inclusive economy in Wales, as you put it. Looking at the budget that we have in front of us now, do you see in it actions that will help grow that kind of inclusive economy that you defined or outlined? 

Not yet, really, no. Some of the steps are in place—the economic contract, steps to recognise the role of the foundational economy—but I think there's quite a lot more that could be done. There's still an element of business as usual going on in the economy. We talked about boosting pay and conditions, as I've already said, making the most of procurement, practical steps to connect people to jobs, which is not just about the metro network but about the integration of bus with it and making bus fares affordable, and also making sure people have a voice. So, I think, certainly, the economic policy section feels like something quite familiar. 

What should we be pushing the Minister on next week on this particular area? 

To do with poverty and inclusion? 

I would want to know—. I think the economic contract is an interesting idea, but I'd want to know how many businesses have benefited from it and how he proposes to roll out the reach of that new approach into the economy as a whole. I'd want to know what he's planning to do about low pay and poor conditions in the worst sectors of the economy, which are accommodation, hospitality and health and social care.

But in terms of, if I could stop you there—what could there be in this budget that could address some of those areas that you mention? 

What he could do is make provision in procurement for more organisations to pay the real living wage. He could allocate a modest sum on the scale of the budget to an active living wage campaign. He could try to develop those parts of Wales that are seriously lagging, so the Heads of the Valleys and parts of rural Wales, because the two big drivers of wages—one is worker voice, so having union representation, and the other one is having a tight labour market, because employers can't get away with paying low wages if you've got a lot of jobs and not so many people. So, just focusing the growth on the areas with the weakest labour markets. We still have parts of Wales where youth unemployment is more than 25 per cent.

Isn't it simple, though, for the Welsh Government? They could make paying the real living wage to be something you have to do to be able to bid for any Welsh contracts, but not only just the real living wage, because we concentrate far too much on wage rates, don't we? It's pointless being paid £20 an hour if you're only working five hours. It's the ending of exploitative contracts. Now, that could be written into all Welsh Government contracts, and via them, all Welsh Government-funded organisations, which include heath and local authorities, in such a way that we would be attacking poverty in that direction. It's not part of the budget, but isn't that a direction of travel the Welsh Government could go in order to deal with it? I'll take that as a 'yes'.

09:40

[Inaudible.]—your comments too, Helen and Anna, on the moves or lack of them towards including an inclusive economy at the heart of this budget.

I think I'd echo that moves like the foundational economy, the circular economy—these are positive, and I know there is funding now going into some of these areas, including in our sector. And I suppose one of the challenges will be to speed that up, then—the learning—and try and push that out. But we definitely support the living wage. That seems to be—. I didn't see a reference to it in the budget documentation, so we'd really support that at WCVA. Also, in our grants, we're a living wage grant giver, so we'd expect people who are receiving our grants to be paying the living wage. And we agree that there's no reason why that can't be pushed out much further. Also, then, we'd also highlight, I suppose, that voluntary organisations employ some 10 per cent of the workforce, and a lot of the social enterprises et cetera are trying to create a more inclusive workplace et cetera. So, I think that, again, it's making sure that, as part of that narrative, we're including the voluntary organisations, I guess, as often a value-driven, not-for-profit part of that, creating a more inclusive economy as well, and across towns in Wales, not just in the big cities or big industries.

To briefly add, in terms of procurement, I would take that line, and we've done some work on that area that highlights that there are opportunities, in terms of having sustainable and strategic approaches to procurement that are innovative, that provide opportunities to be able to take some of these measures forward.

And one other question from me—brief comments as well from the three of you—on the Government's attitude towards devolved taxes and the use of them, or deciding not to change various rates and so on. What opportunities do you think the Government is taking, or do you regret they're not taking, given the doors that are open through the new taxation devolution?

I think I would describe—

And this is not on the inclusive economy, by the way, this is on tackling poverty—[Inaudible.]

I would describe the Government's approach as cautious. For once, I have to say, I think that's the right approach, because it's a new area and it's a very sensitive area. If they get it wrong, then the consequences, in terms of reputation as well as people's finances, are very significant. So, I understand that caution.

I think the truth is that taxes have—. Income tax in particular has a very limited impact on people on very low incomes, because for most part they don't pay it. So, when you raise the tax threshold, for example, or reduce the rate—which, of course, the Welsh Government can't do—on the lowest band, the people who benefit most are people who are higher paid. So, it's actually not a very good lever specifically for people on low incomes.

I'm not sure I have a huge comment on the tax system overall, but we have the landfill disposals tax community fund that we deliver in WCVA, and have felt that, actually, being able to have taxes that are paid in Wales and then developing a mechanism, and consulting with the communities there to say, 'How should this be spent?', has been really positive, and the scheme seems to be going well. So, it's having that—and I suppose, in the taxes in general, I'm not an expert on that in any way, but in the sense it's really finding ways to involve people and communities and understanding what the options are and what might be best for them. I think that's a difficult job to do, but I think that that community fund has been good like that.

09:45

Can I just add? I should have said, if you include council tax as a devolved tax, which, of course, it is, then there is very big scope for change, but I—

I wasn't necessarily referring to that, but it's a very good and important point. Yes.

Yes. I would just point out, I accept Victoria's point that for the poorest part of the workforce, raising the threshold to pay tax is going to have minimal effect. But there's quite an important group above that, and you can adjust the other tax rates, obviously, to ensure that higher taxpayers, in effect, lose at the other end any gain they make from a higher start in terms of the threshold at which you pay income tax in the first place. But it requires some skill to—.

Yes, and particularly with a porous border.

Well, yes, and that's the subject of a whole other inquiry that we're undertaking. Helen, and then we'll come to Alun.

I haven't anything.

No? There we are. Okay, that's fine. Alun, shall we move on to your questions, then, please?

The future generations commissioner, in a consultation submission, suggested that she's not seeing much evidence—and I quote—that the definition of preventative spend

'is being applied across Government, and is having an effect on decisions'.

Do any of you agree with her?

I think a lot of voluntary organisations are also pushing hard to have that definition of prevention, so we welcome that there is that definition of prevention. I think it is difficult to see, in some cases, where that's being used. Some of our members would also say that it feels quite like health and social care definitions, rather than some of the—. We also need to be thinking about environmental preventions, et cetera, so it's not entirely—. We're happy it's kind of there, but we're not clear how it's being used.

I think in terms of prevention in the budget, again, we'd see that the sorts of activities, say in health and social care, that some groups do—like sports groups, like, I don't know, anything, the sorts of activities that are preventing social isolation—bring people together and can play a huge role. I think we've got something in the paper, there's something with social prescribing, where some organisations have found that where there's been social prescribing out to more community or voluntary activities, there has been about a 28 per cent reduction in demand in GP services. Now, there are going to be lots of caveats around that, but in a sense, what is not clear in the budget is that sort of—to me, it's how it's making a much more fundamental shift towards that sort of preventative activity rather than putting more—. Well, the NHS is obviously going to be important, but in a sense, I think we're not seeing an obvious shift, really, or, it's not clear still, using those definitions, how to kind of track that.

I think there is a lack of clarity about what prevention means. I'd agree with Anna that it is dominated by a health and social care concept insofar as there is one, and I think it's certainly yet to make much difference on the ground.

In terms of reading the—. Christmas in the Davies household is always a laugh a minute. I spent a great deal of time at Christmas reading the budget, and my children were delighted. And as I read through it, I thought, 'This is a very traditional Welsh budget—we've got a bit of additional funds, so, therefore, we'll divvy it up, largely, in a very traditional sort of way.' This budget could have been produced 10 years ago prior to austerity in many ways. And I'm thinking, in terms of preventative, there are certainly the issues that Anna has described in terms of policy initiatives and responding to different things, but there's a more fundamental sense of prevention as well.

I was reading through the chief economist's report, for example, and reading through the Office for Budget Responsibility's analysis and the rest of it, and the word that stood out to me was 'uncertainty'. Now, whatever your views on Brexit, and they're all well advertised and well known, but there's a sense of uncertainty in terms of future tax revenues and a sense of uncertainty in terms of future need and programmes. We understand that the UK budget is going to focus on capital and not just revenue expenditure; we understand from future projections that if we continue to spend—and you've all suggested it this morning—similar elements of our budget on health and social services, then all other parts of the budget would be squeezed significantly in the first part of this next decade. And I felt, and I wonder if you'd agree with this, that preventative can also be about reforming the public sector—Mike has argued for reform of the health service, and I'd agree with him; I'd say we need to go further than that—to ensure that these future uncertainties are met with a public sector that's more fit for purpose than perhaps it is today. 

09:50

It is a very traditional budget, which I suppose is understandable, as it's the last of the current administration and also given the lack of any forward planning. But I think, and it may well be, that the work to produce a very different kind of budget needs to go on in a different place, and maybe we'll see a different kind of budget for 2021-22—who knows? But certainly, when we look at the scale of the challenges that lie outside—so, if we think about climate change, demographic change, automation, economic change, all of which, or some of which, are summarised in the chief economist's report, we have huge—. Some of which are known, some of which are unknown. The budget doesn't feel like it's taking account of that, and having what arguably are the major shifts that you need in thinking. 

For what it's worth, I think, for example, that the social contract between the state and the public is changing. People are being promised fantastic public services, and also promised low taxation. Well, you can't have the two. That underpins a lot of the incrementalism that's in the Welsh Government's budget, and certainly, probably in the UK Government's budget as well. Now, who knows what's going to come out on 11 March, when the Chancellor announces things, but we could see some radical changes that could then leave us, the Welsh Government and public bodies, completely unprepared for what's ahead. Sorry. 

On that, I suppose, yes, uncertainty definitely feels like a theme throughout, or is a theme throughout, and it is all the time at the moment. So there are a few things like that—that transformation of services that one feels is needed. As you said, if you look at the chief economist's report, it isn't always clear, if these are the issues, exactly how the response or the preventative side comes in for, for example, ageing population and fewer younger people. What are we doing around things like that? Is there something in place, then, to address that, so that we're not just looking at the future trends, but we're perhaps preventing them from happening in the first place? I know that Scotland has worked on its migration with refugee populations, looking at changing their age profile in different places, et cetera. So, what are we doing in response to some of those things?

Also, I think with the public services, we'd argue that we do need some sort of transformation where it needs to be much more about not the sort of top-down, public bodies delivering everything to people, but a lot more that we shift to that co-production model that is talked about in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, which we talk about a lot, but actually, we're not really seeing that come through. We need to see that shift in spend to enable that to happen, I'd argue. So we've got that improvement—I can't remember the word properly; 'improvement plan', is it—attached to that sort of direction of travel. There are some elements in there that maybe we need to be—. That was really great, to be able to have that and to be able to have that forward look, but are there elements, including prevention, where, I don't know—are we doing enough now to get further along the line, in a sense, on some of this?

I'd also argue that with voluntary organisations, this is having a direct impact, then, on how organisations can deliver services where they're funded by not just the Welsh Government, but local government, public bodies. There's huge uncertainty, so obviously, there's a limited amount that Welsh Government has been able to do in the sense of the wider context of uncertainty—Brexit, the UK Government budgeting, et cetera. On the other hand, this has been going on for some time now, where voluntary organisations are increasingly told, 'One-year budgets', or having funding in-year that is sometimes relatively substantial and it's difficult to spend properly in that time.

So, I suppose, given that uncertainty seems to be a fairly constant thing at the moment and is not going to change, I suppose we'd argue that we need to find ways of budgeting and including funding. So, for us, we're obviously working with voluntary organisations. Is there different scenario planning, et cetera, that you could do to give some more certainty about, 'If this happens next year, then we could—'? It's only 1.8 per cent of the Welsh Government budget that goes to, say, voluntary organisations. 'If this is the situation, then you would have X', or whatever, or there would be a continuity. If our budget gets wiped out, then obviously we're not going to be able to do that. But there's something where we have to, sort of, almost look at how we plan our budget and funding further in advance within this new context of uncertainty.

09:55

I'd agree that the budget improvement plans really welcome longer term perspectives on initiatives that are going to be taken and I think the challenge of short term—or medium term now—uncertainty almost emphasises the need to transcend the short term and look further into the long term, because there's a need, in the context of the uncertainty, to actually bolster the capacity of the public sector to be able to plan, to be able to override some of the backwards and forwards and the chopping and changing that's happening in the short term to be able to work towards longer term goals. So, I think it's particularly important, given the uncertainty.

Can I, perhaps, press people with a particular example in this, sort of, preventative area—social prescribing and the potential for that to take pressure off the health service, both at the primary and the secondary level? How would you assess what the Government is doing in that field, in that budget? How are opportunities being taken up or otherwise? Does anyone feel qualified to talk on that one?

Well, in a limited way. A lot of our member organisations have been much more involved, including the county voluntary councils, but, I suppose, broadly, we would really welcome social prescribing as a policy direction and feel that that is important and can be a way of taking pressure off public service spend as well. So, we have had some examples where—. In north Wales, Mantell Gwynedd, they do a lot of work on social return on investment and have been able to track some of that. So, where activities are happening more out in the community, it is resulting in what we'd see as what should be less demand in the future. But, some of the issues around that include—. It's all very well to prescribe out to a running group or to a choir, but, actually, those organisations, then, they don't need much resource, necessarily, or the same sort of level, but, actually, you need to have the community centre running to host the singing group, or whatever people have been going to. So, there does need to be that kind of baseline and some resource needs to shift that way. And also, I suppose, making sure that those organisations are prepared, especially if people have—if they're going there with various mental health issues, et cetera, that we have the right safeguarding, or we have the right support in place and those organisations that are doing the social prescribing element are able to do that effectively and safely.

I mean, social prescribing risks being the latest shiny new thing that is in fashion and then fades. I think it can play a valuable role in preventing all kinds of mental and physical health problems, but there's a lack of evidence about what really works and there are lots of assumptions made about, 'If you refer somebody to do this, then it will achieve that', but we don't necessarily know. There are some concerns about the standards, particularly standards of commissioning, so, when somebody is referred to an organisation, is it clear that the service that that organisation is delivering is of good enough quality? We don't know about what quantum—. We know how much exercise you're supposed to do, but how much social contact is good? So, there are huge questions around that, and then, there are also issues around reach. I mean, we've heard anecdotal evidence about people being referred to exercise sessions in their local leisure centre, but they don't have the sufficient income in order to pay to get the bus to that leisure centre to attend, or there isn't a bus service for them to attend. So, it's one of those things that sounds good but actually needs more—I would say—rigour about its implementation. 

10:00

Drawing out just another example, if I may, the initiatives around climate change in the budget, what do you think in terms of the rigour or otherwise of how Welsh Government assesses which of these initiatives are going to be most cost-effective and how to get the best bang for their buck in that area?

I couldn't comment on that, I'm sorry.

Either of you feel that you can comment on the climate changing? I think anyone who does the sort of—. You know, if Welsh Government's going to give money, whether to local government or to a voluntary organisation or third sector of any type, presumably they're going to be keen to promote the particular projects they are doing, but how does Welsh Government sensibly make an assessment of where best to put that money?

I couldn't comment.

No. I suppose this would be across the budget, in a sense. We'd be hoping that there's an evidence base and as much as possible used and, where it's coming to voluntary organisations, pushing at that it's on an outcomes basis, so we understand the difference that's been trying to be made and work together to measure that. But I don't know the details of climate change.

I suppose there are parallels with the poverty point that you were making earlier, in that you need to see it in the broad shape of the budget but also in specific interventions.

Absolutely. And I think one of the things that I wonder about is whether the budget is attempting to achieve so many things—. There's a paragraph of words around poverty reduction, climate change, prevention, et cetera, et cetera—. There's a question in my mind about can all those be achieved or are some of them contradictory. And I don't have an answer to that, but I think there's almost—. It is so ambitious in what it's trying to achieve, in a way it's almost guaranteed to fail, I suppose.

So, you're referring—. There are eight priority areas or eight targeted areas, aren't there?  

One point that I would have on that is that there is a real need to build the data capacity to be able to make those sorts of analyses and to enable meaningful analyses to be able to support. That's an obvious point, but—.

Finally from me, just referencing back to a question earlier, there seemed to be a consensus or enthusiasm, I thought, from the panel for requiring the public sector across the board to pay the real living wage and potentially to require anyone contracting with any part of the public sector to do that. Have any of you given any consideration to the possible impact of that on levels of council tax, which can be for a very significant proportion of spending for some poorer households?

We haven't looked at that, no. The calculation of the value of the real living wage takes into account all the taxes and benefits that people pay and receive. So, it's not—. If people were to avoid poverty and have enough to live on and not receive any benefits to help with their living costs, the real living wage would be very much higher than it is. And although I would say that embedding the real living wage throughout the public sector is important, it will not alone solve the problem, because the real concentrations of low pay are in the private sector. They're not in the public sector. 

There is, yes. Yes. But what—. You would not want the public sector to have such differential terms and conditions that it had an impact, a negative impact, on the private sector and it became almost anti-competitive. 

Are you not concerned—? I think there was a bit of that in your answer there, but, if that trend continues, aren't we going to see ever-increasing diversions between the terms and conditions and wages in the private sector compared to the public sector, and is that fair? 

Well, that's why you need a whole labour market approach. That's why we would say—. That's why I've said already you need to focus on the private sector jobs that don't pay as well as—. I would not be in favour of simply focusing on the public sector.

10:05

Moving on to integrated impact assessments and the discussion around whether there is anything lost within that bundle, what is your positioning around the fact that, obviously, women are demonstrably the poorest in our society and, obviously, going back to the poverty discussion at the very beginning of this session, the whole debate around gender impact, gender budgeting, is very prevalent, and Chwarae Teg has obviously done their second phase review—how do you feel that is portrayed within this budget? Do you think that it's had an impact? What would you like to have seen done differently around gender budgeting?

Firstly, I would very much commend the commitment to gender budgeting with the pilot that's being initiated and I think that's a very welcome development. I would stress that it's a long-term approach that's being embarked on, and the evidence points to very much long term, having an openness to learning lessons, which is evident in Wales, which has been recognised as well. So, I think that in this budget some steps have been put in place to start the process, but it's at such an early stage that I think it really is the initial first steps that are being taken. I'm not able to comment in detail about the current budget and where that's got to, but just to emphasise that I think there are certain things that can be done in terms of developing the framework for impact assessment and actually having the impact assessment taking place at the start of the budget process, which—

So, specifically—I gave you a very long preamble—. So, specifically in regard to the place of gender impact assessment, putting aside the budgeting issue itself, within the integrated assessments, do you feel that there's anything lost by having an integrated approach? Because, obviously, previously there were criticisms around the fact that it was duplicative and complex and obviously this is a reaction to that. But have you an impression, Victoria or Anna, in regard to whether that's sort of lost in the importance of that or do you feel satisfied that that is the correct approach at this moment in time?

I think—. Personally, I welcome the fact that it's there and that it's being done. I think the difficulty is that it is quite broad-brush and there are sometimes some assumptions made about the impact of x on y. So, for example, it's assumed that childcare is good for women, but the design of the current childcare offer doesn't necessarily benefit women on low incomes, for example. So, the devil is in the detail, I think, but I think, as an approach, it is a step forward.

Yes, again, I suppose we'd welcome that there is gender budgeting and that work is going on. I'm not sure—. I know our members have been concerned, about integrating all the different elements together, that perhaps some areas will be lost, and others argue that there's huge potential, with more integrated assessments, that you can see some of the cuts, the way things cut across and have a kind of whole conversation—

So, you'd see it as a step forward, but as part of a journey. Is that incorrect for me to summarise?

I'd absolutely agree and I think having the intersectional approach is critical so that you do capture the interplay of gender on race, et cetera. 

I think one of the issues and criticisms from the second-phase report is that there is no real disaggregated data around gender to be able to therefore look at what the real actions to be taken are. So, how important do you feel that would be in terms of moving that agenda forward?

That's critical and that is a key part of that longer term journey, as you mentioned, to—. There's always going to be a challenge, I think, in Wales in terms of working with a smaller sample size, and working with averages hides a lot of the information that needs to be drawn out. However, investment in having rich data from which to be able to undertake the analysis is critical to be able to understand and to be able to have the assessment at the right stage in the budget process to be able to inform the policies—

10:10

Okay. So, as we don't have that yet, in terms of where we are on that journey, would you say that we're at the very beginning, are we midway through? 

I'm not quite certain how they evolved—. Particularly, what we do welcome is the budget advisory group on equalities, that then you have a kind of expert group that is able to feed in more. That hasn't always been meeting, so we're glad to see that back up and in there to do that advice.

Okay, thank you. So, in regard to your views on how the Welsh Government should change the budget allocation process and associated documentation to achieve progress in meeting gender equality ambitions, what would you like to see differently, apart from the issues that we've just talked about in terms of the importance of data allocation and analysis?

In terms of the role of the advisory group on equalities, I think there are key opportunities for that group to be able to engage with experts and to feed in—so, establishing the depth of analyses at the right time in the budget process, which also raises a lot of challenges in terms of the willingness to be able to share the data with the experts and the proposed policy choices as well, at the right times in the budget process. So, I think there are a lot of challenges that need to be ironed out, but I think the importance—and, again, the evidence points to this—of working with a range of actors at key times can really enhance the analysis and allow the Government to make informed policy choices along the way.

Sorry, I'm just thinking as well the—. So, with the data there, there's a kind of voice and having people's experiences. Some of the groups we work on in the budget advisory group are then linked in to lots of networks and an understanding, I suppose, of people's lived experience within that as well, so I think that challenge of voice as well—. It's not so easy on the Welsh Government budget, but having much more of a participatory budgeting approach as well, especially at the smaller, local level—in a sense to build that in, making sure that different groups, including on a gender basis, can have a say on how spend takes place in their community and sector—. Getting that involvement, I think, is really important.

Thank you. So, finally, in regard to the budget improvement plan, and also in regard to the longer term financial planning, how would you like to see this develop—you've partially touched upon this—in future?

No, if you haven't asked the question, that's fine. We touched on the budget improvement plan earlier, Anna, didn't we? Do any of the other members have any comments about that?

No, just to echo I think it's a very welcome development, but extending it into the longer term. I think, also, associated with the budget improvement plan, having clear and realistic objectives—so, it's that balance, isn't it, between ambition, which is certainly there, and also having realistic objectives that work alongside a plan for developing the capacity to be able to implement those. I think that's all I'd add.

Just, I suppose, yes, we would reiterate that we welcome that there is an improvement plan. Maybe there are improvements to the improvement plan that could be done over time or whatever. But in a sense—and I suppose, for us, one of the areas we're particularly interested in is that engagement element and how do you get—. We talk about disconnected communities and people feeling disempowered et cetera, so I think we'd be really interested in working with the Government to look more at how you involve people in these issues.

My only question is, if we have a more active planning process around the budget, concepts like redundancy come into play big time, don't they, because some programmes simply don't work, some big policy areas are not particularly effectively addressed. Victoria's example was a really challenging and excellent one. You'd think, 'Childcare, yes, that's really going to help all women,' and then you tie that to women in work and you immediately take out a vital group, perhaps the most important group, in terms of their support so that they have a more coherent lifestyle and are able to build on that and their well-being and seeking skills or whatever. But you've taken them out of the programme from the beginning.

So, I just wonder how your sectors will respond to the fact that some programmes would go, and then you wouldn't be in the happy situation of a three-year budget being rolled over in an inert way constantly. There would be big shifts in a more active, planned, preventative budget cycle, wouldn't there?

10:15

It's very difficult when you have stakeholders involved in decision making of any sort, because, either overtly or without realising it, stakeholders will often defend their own organisational interests, which are not necessarily the same as the interests of the people that they claim to represent, and there may well be people in wider society who aren't represented at all in that. So, there does come a point where there needs to be that political direction and political leadership and that political willingness to say, 'No, this ends,' or, 'Yes, this starts.' So, I suppose that's a caveat to the kinds of processes that have been described.

On that, I suppose that we'd encourage building up that evidence base. We are concerned that, sometimes, working with public funders, we're not necessarily getting clear agreement with outcomes and sometimes there's micromanagement rather than the ability to be more experimental and to find the best solutions for the particular issue that we're trying to work with. If that were the case, that we had a stronger evidence base, hopefully it would help with some of these things, and we would not feel that decisions are made—well, not on a whim, obviously; sorry, that's not the right wording, but, in a sense, we feel that sometimes really effective projects can be cut in difficult times when, actually, they are good preventative services, but without the evidence base, it's hard to—

Even major programmes? If there was testing built in, and so little public expenditure gets effectively tested, then you'd have winners and losers, wouldn't you, quite properly? So, do you think your sectors are going to be willing participants in that more—? I think it's a very important area, and we'd be surprised at some things that actually sound good, but don't end up working. Social prescription, I think, was an excellent example. Is it an outcome if you want to take exercise and join a choir and all the rest of it, or is it something that if it's given to you then the rest of your life suddenly gets put back together? These are profoundly important things, and there's very, very little—. We're not going to end up with a medical model of testing and blind samples and all that, but there are ways of trying to get some idea of how effective public spending is in its actual implementation.

And that's right both at a macro scale in terms of, 'Does our model of'—I don't know—'education or healthcare, does that work?' but it's also important at a micro level. I mean, for example, on the specific initiatives to tackle poverty, why those ones? Why holiday hunger? Why period poverty? Do we know that those are the things that matter most, or are they the things that have grabbed the headlines because there have been effective lobby groups? Now, I don't disagree with them, but I think there are questions to be asked. How do you withdraw from—

It should be an uncomfortable process, shouldn't it, really, for everyone involved?

That's right. What's key to some of those is the delivery. If kids are just turning up for sandwiches and chips, that's not necessarily reaching the—. Or if there's stigma attached to attending, that's not necessarily going to achieve the objectives, and then how do you withdraw them? So, I think you are absolutely right that asking difficult questions has got to be part of the process.

And, hopefully, we're doing that, or at least will be. So, there we are, we've come to the end of our allocated time slot, so can I thank the three of you for your evidence this morning? We've covered a lot of ground, and I know a lot of what we've received from you will, I'm sure, be reflected in our conclusions. So, thank you, the three of you. We'll now break for five minutes, but I would ask Members just to wait here for a moment before disappearing. Diolch yn fawr. Thank you.  

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:19 a 10:31.

The meeting adjourned between 10:19 and 10:31.

10:30
5. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer 2020-21: Sesiwn dystiolaeth 3
5. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2020-21: Evidence session 3

Croeso nôl i'r Pwyllgor Cyllid, ac a gaf i groesawu ein panel nesaf ni yn y gwaith rydym ni'n ei wneud i graffu ar gyllideb y Llywodraeth? Gaf i groesawu Cathy Madge ac Eurgain Powell o swyddfa Comisiynydd Cenedlaethau'r Dyfodol Cymru ac a gaf i groesawu hefyd Alex Chapman, sydd yn ymgynghorydd gyda'r New Economics Foundation? Croeso i'r tri ohonoch chi. Mae, wrth gwrs, Sophie Howe, comisiynydd cenedlaethau'r dyfodol, wedi anfon ei hymddiheuriadau, a hynny oherwydd amgylchiadau personol.

Felly, croeso i chi. Mi awn ni'n syth i gwestiynau, os ydy hynny'n iawn, a gwnaf i gychwyn, os caf i, drwy ofyn a ydych chi'n fodlon â'r cynnydd sydd wedi cael ei wneud gan Lywodraeth Cymru o ran ymgorffori Deddf Llesiant Cenedlaethau'r Dyfodol (Cymru) 2015 yn y broses o wneud penderfyniadau, yn enwedig yn y modd, efallai, mae'r rheini'n cael eu hadlewyrchu yn y gyllideb ddrafft sydd o'n blaenau ni?

Welcome back to the Finance Committee. Can I welcome our next panel in the work that we're doing on Government budget scrutiny? Could I welcome Cathy Madge and Eurgain Powell from the office of the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales, and could I also welcome Alex Chapman, who is a consultant with the New Economics Foundation? Welcome to the three of you. Sophie Howe, the future generations commissioner, has sent her apologies because of personal circumstances.

So, welcome to the three of you. We'll go straight into questions, if that's okay, and I'll start, if I may, by asking whether you're satisfied with the progress that is being made by the Welsh Government in terms of incorporating the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 into the decision-making process, particularly in the way that those are demonstrated in the draft budget before us?

Thank you. So, firstly, I think we want to say that there's quite a lot to be positive about in this draft budget. Our focus this year has been on decarbonisation and prevention, and we can see visible shifts in relation to both of those areas. We also welcome the inclusion of the budget improvement plan as part of the documentation. So, that was a recommendation both from us and from this committee last year and we think it's really positive that Welsh Government have developed the plan, as it provides a vehicle for a much more robust understanding of year-on-year progress in relation to the budget.

So, there definitely are positives, but the question is whether we're satisfied in terms of the overall progress, and we think there's still considerable scope for progress. So, whilst there are some real positives, a lot of scope for progress, particularly this year, given the likelihood of the UK spending review. So, I know we said this last year, because we expected there'd be a spending review—

Well, hopefully, we won't be in a position of saying it every year. But, this year, it would be really, really surprising if there wasn't a spending review, and so we think the Welsh Government should take that as an opportunity to really be making more transformational strategic decisions.

And then, in terms of your question around incorporating the Act into decision making, we think there's more scope for that as well, and we think that Government possibly took a backward step this year in terms of the structure of the budget. So, last year, it was structured according to well-being objectives, which are obviously one of the key elements of the well-being of future generations Act, and this year, this isn't the case. This year, it's structured by a more prosperous Wales, a greener Wales and a more equal Wales, which relate, to some extent, to the well-being objectives, but aren't exactly there. So, we think that there's scope for that to be reconsidered as well.

And then, finally, whilst there are positive things to say, a lot of those relate to new spend, so, the uplift that Welsh Government had from the UK Government, and our interest is in the entirety of spend. We feel that four years into the well-being of future generations Act, we should be seeing considerable improvement in relation to existing spend, as well as new spend.

We've heard in the past how you as a commission have been working with the Government to embed some of these principles in Government decision making. Can you tell us a bit about how, maybe, you were part of that working up to this budget and whether you had that kind of role to play, as much as you would have liked to, and maybe how did that compare this year compared to last year, given that maybe you're saying there are some better things, but then again, there are some areas where the Government might have gone back?

Yes, of course. So, I think it's worth saying that we've engaged with Government throughout the year, so we understand the importance of the whole budget process, as well as this very, very—this year, even more—concentrated period of drafting the budgets. This year, in relation to previous years, we've taken a much more focused approach, so we've really focused in on decarbonisation and prevention as two areas that we've identified where a lot more work needs to happen, and also where we feel that our office can add real value. The way we've approached the engagement has been different in two main ways.

Firstly, we've consciously broadened out our engagement from just the finance Minister and her core budgeting team to the whole of Government, because I think we realised quite early on, in terms of decarbonisation and prevention, the scale of the cultural change that's needed, the finance ministry can only do so much there. So, we've consciously engaged across Government. The commissioner, as you probably know, has written to the whole of Cabinet several times specifically around the budget. She's met with a number of Ministers specifically about the budget too. And in terms of our conversations, we've also widened those out for officials across Government.

And then, secondly, I think we've explored issues in a lot more depth than previously. So, again, decarbonisation and prevention. Decarbonisation: we published our 10-point plan back in June, following the declaration of the climate emergency. So, that was a very conscious decision to really start the conversation about responding to the climate emergency really early on, and we were clear that that document was sort of a starting point for discussion. We weren't saying that everything there was perfect, but we wanted that conversation to really kick off. And then we also followed up with a number of Welsh Government teams, so we ran a workshop with several directors on decarbonisation in September, and have then used that as an opportunity to really focus in, particularly on transport, housing and renewables, in terms of what we expect to see. In relation to prevention, we've taken a similar approach. We've particularly focused on the prevention of homelessness as a sort of lens to explore how Government is working collaboratively to have those cross-departmental conversations about prevention. But we've also actively engaged with the operations teams in Welsh Government as well. So, that's the approach we've taken. And I suppose we'd say that part of the reason there is a lot of positive stuff to say, we hope, is because of that approach.

10:35

So, is that level of engagement, that intensity of engagement, because you've listed quite a comprehensive list there, is that at a level that you're satisfied with or do you feel that you could actually engage even further? Are you seeking to engage further or are you content with where you are in terms of that level of engagement?

Well, I know what the commissioner would say to that question if she was here; she would point out that we've got quite a small budget for the remit we've got. 

So, I think that we've consciously focused a lot more resource—I'd say 50 per cent to 60 per cent more resource—this year on the Welsh Government budget. We've also resourced expert input from the New Economics Foundation—so, Alex—and also an organisation called Social Finance on the prevention side. So, we've actually resourced work to support us to be able to do a good job of engagement. I think we'd like to continue it, and we think that the sort of cultural change that's needed probably does need us continuing to push and push, I'd say again, particularly in relation to these two areas. But it is challenging in terms of the scope and the remit of our office.

Sure. And what about that balance between specific areas of policy such as decarbonisation and of course the broader thrust of that cultural change happening as well, are you happy that you're engaging on both levels sufficiently?

It's a really difficult balance, but I think certainly the office's approach is that if we talk about the broad—all of the well-being goals, all of the five ways of working, any topic you can think of could be fitted under those. We just don't manage to have the impact that we want to have because it's too broad and there's potentially more wriggle room for Government.

Well, the Government could say that about the whole budget, of course. 

Well, they could, that's true.

And we touched on that in an earlier session. But, yes—sorry.

That is true. So, I think that we've identified decarbonisation and prevention as key elements of the well-being of future generations Act that we don't think any other organisation is pushing in the same way as us. So, we think we've seen an impact, and hopefully will continue to do so.

You've welcomed the budget improvement plan, but you've suggested that it could be strengthened, so could you just explain to us what you think its weaknesses are?

Yes, of course. So, in terms of the budget improvement plan, our analysis has been around three elements. So, first of all, the extent to which it facilitates the tracking and understanding of progress around the budget, and we think this is really important both in terms of the budget process and spending decisions. And we've had some quite interesting conversations with Welsh Government around this, because they feel that it's more in the space of process, so the year-long budget process. We agree with that, but think it should also be a vehicle to analyse and understand spending decisions. Secondly, you probably will have picked up that we're keen that it shows a continuum of change, from simple changes, more basic changes, to more transformational changes. Again, both in relation to process and spending decisions. And then thirdly, we want to see it demonstrating the integration of the five ways of working.

So, we think there are three main areas of weakness, and we've fed this back to Welsh Government. First of all, we think that the level of ambition and vision should be raised, because the Act is aspirational. So, we think that a starting point for this, or if not the starting point certainly a consideration, is thinking about what a budget that fully embeds the well-being of future generations Act might look like and working back from that; whereas we feel that the approach the plan has taken is to look at where we are today and work forwards. So, that's one of the key differences. 

Secondly, we think that the improvement plan should enable stakeholders to hold spending decisions to account and track how transformational change is. So, we understand, again, that it needs to be about the whole process, because there is a real tendency to just focus on the very narrow process of producing the budget itself. But we think there's scope for that to be a lot broader, and we've drawn parallels, in speaking to Welsh Government, with the New Zealand well-being budget approach.

So, if I could just summarise that really quickly, what they do there in relation to new spend is they select priorities and then cross-Government groups make spending proposals against these priorities with impact assessments alongside that. The Government then selects proposals and publishes the spending decisions that have changed as a result. So, it's much more transparent and it's much easier to see what's actually changed. So, we think that Welsh Government should be doing something similar to that, at the very least in relation to new spending decisions, if not entire spending decisions. 

And then the third weakness, we think, is in relation to the five ways of working set out in the Act and also the broader mechanics of the well-being of future generations Act. So, we think that the plan is relatively stronger in terms of collaboration, involvement and integration, which are three of the five ways of working, but there's more to do potentially on prevention and long term. So, whilst there's a section on prevention, we think that prevention isn't reflected well enough through the entirety of the plan and, in terms of long term, we feel that not enough consideration is given firstly to the timeframe of the plan, because it's only five years, but also to the ways in which Government could make different decisions to enable other organisations to make longer term decisions. 

10:40

Sorry, yes, there is. 

I'm sure we'll come back to some of that as we continue our scrutiny later on. So, we'll move on to Alun now.

Thank you. I'd like to focus in on some of the issues around decarbonisation and climate. I was very taken by the language you used in your document responding to the budget and 'Section 1—Investing in the Climate Emergency'. You're very brutal in your response to the Government, very gently brutal, but brutal nevertheless, and I wanted to test you on some of that. You say there are pockets of funding for activities but no evidence of systemic or transformational change, and then you say there appears to be a disconnect between policy commitments and budget allocations. Can you give me some examples of what you mean by that?

Yes, of course. So, obviously we feel that the Welsh Government has clearly recognised that this is the first budget that they're putting in place since declaring a climate emergency. The commissioner welcomes the announcement of the additional £140 million for new capital funding for climate and the environment. However, what's still very difficult to tell is whether this £140 million of capital has actually been allocated in the right way, because the evidence base in terms of the carbon impact of this spend isn't actually available.

We also welcome the increase in terms of the total spend on sustainable travel. That's gone up from £160 million to £290 million. So, obviously we welcome the increased focus there. But again, it remains the case that we don't know what the carbon impact of the budget is in its entirety. So, it's difficult to gauge in terms of responding to the climate emergency.

In terms of the discussions and the responses that we've had from Welsh Government Ministers and officials over the last few months, as you've referred to, they talk about the examples in terms of the small pockets of funding here and there; that's evident in terms of the breakdown of the £140 million. But we're not seeing that level of transformational change or a more systematic approach in terms of prioritising the allocations across the whole of Government.

We're concerned then in terms of not seeing evidence that Welsh Government has a clear process to classify or assess how much they're currently spending, or indeed they need to spend, on decarbonisation actions to deliver the statutory carbon budgets and targets that have been agreed in terms of the legislation.

10:45

Can I stop you there? Because you're reading, there, the document, and I accept that in terms of your views, but you say:

'There appears to be no evidence that Welsh Government has a clear process'.

What sort of evidence are you looking for?

So, one of the comments we've made in the report that you refer to is the fact that Welsh Government have published a very clear plan—'A Low Carbon Wales' was published earlier this year to show what needs to happen in terms of achieving the carbon reduction targets. What we're not seeing, then, is those policy commitments and the clear actions within 'A Low Carbon Wales'—how they are translating in terms of the decisions around the budget allocations. We're not seeing that really clear line of sight and, when we've challenged some Government officials around that, they've not been able to demonstrate that evidence to us.

Just for me to clear on what you're saying there, you've got the policy commitments that were made in March, the document that was published then, and you're not seeing the funding to deliver those policy commitments as part of this budget process over the last month or so.

We're not seeing the clear evidence that the decisions that have been made—

Yes, on the budget. I don't know if Alex has got anything to add.

I'm grateful to you for that clarity. You're also saying that there's no consistent approach to undertaking carbon impact assessments for infrastructure projects and you're not clear on how carbon impact is informing decisions. Again, what were you anticipating seeing to deliver the sort of clarity and the comfort that you would be seeking?

So, it might be worth me just mentioning briefly how we've attempted to calculate levels of spend relating to decarbonisation within the budget. So, last year, we went through this exercise—and we recognise the approach we've taken is probably quite crude, but, actually, it is very challenging to assess levels of decarbonisation spend, or, indeed, the carbon impact of the Welsh Government's budget, because of the way it's currently structured. So, last year, we estimated that around 1 per cent of the Welsh Government budget was allocated towards decarbonisation. That was broken down into around £70 million of direct spend, and another, roughly, £100 million on indirect spend.

This year, working with NEF, we've revised that methodology and we have included some additional spending lines—so, for example, capital expenditure for Transport for Wales. So, when we compare the figures for our new methodology, the spending for 2019-20 that we consider is directly linked to decarbonisation was around £385 million, so slightly higher than the previous figure, and this was around 2.1 per cent of the total budget, whereas then, if we compare the spending for the 2020-21 budget, that's gone up to around £495 million, so roughly a 2.5 per cent figure. So, again, we're encouraged, really, that the figures seem to be going in the right direction in terms of increasing. In terms of carbon impact assessment, are you able to elaborate, then, in terms of—?

I think the issue is, if you're putting £140 million into these initiatives, which, by and large, to me look like excellent initiatives, but you have these lines in the budget under, for example, mostly capital spend—you know, big ones, multiple hundreds of millions in transport, in health—we've no way of knowing what the carbon impact of those spending lines is. We may actually have here in front of us a budget that's a net carbon-emitting budget, but we have no evidence to be able to know whether that's the case. Now, we looked in, just as an example, the five largest currently active road-building schemes that we understand that the transport team have on their plate, and they all appear to be net carbon-emitting projects. So, without that holistic view, actually, the good work that's gone on here in responding to the emergency with those investments may be wholly undermined until we have that transparency. And, in the context of an emergency, I would regard that it is imperative to have that level of scrutiny if we are taking this seriously.

You say later in the same document, and I quote:

'It is clear that Government have no consistent approach to do this at the moment, and they have asked me'—

the commissioner—

'to resource this work.'

So, does this mean that you are working to deliver that sort of consistency with the Welsh Government?

10:50

So, we mentioned earlier, in terms of having a more significant focus on the budget work for our office, that we have made the decision to bring in external resource to support us—we don't have capacity or expertise in everything—and doing this in a huge amount of detail. So, that's the reason we have brought in external support from organisations like NEF and Social Finance. So, NEF have been looking at what could be possible in terms of developing a carbon impact assessment or a carbon impact account that Welsh Government could then publish alongside their annual budget. So, that's something that Alex has been working on.

And you're doing that on behalf of the Welsh Government.

We're doing that to inform our advice to Welsh Government. 

Just for clarity, really, in regard to what may be two separate issues. You talked about the way that the budget is structured, and you've elucidated, Alex, in terms of what you say that you can't assess. Are you saying then that the carbon impact assessment, if it was somehow integrated within that structure, would then give you the clarity that we would all like to see? Or is it just purely the way that that budget is structured in terms of the formatting of it? Or is it both?

I'm interested in—. The budget, of course, doesn't happen in isolation. We saw the declaration of a climate emergency and we saw the decarbonisation strategy, 'Prosperity for All: A Low Carbon Wales', published in March. You've been very clear in your evidence this morning that there's a disconnect between the two. But do you believe that the strategy published in March was in itself sufficiently ambitious?

The strategy they published in March of last year was the plan that linked to the five-yearly carbon budget, which began in 2016 and ends this year. So, I think Welsh Government have—

The targets have been missed, yes.

So, I think Welsh Government have had a very challenging piece of work on their hands in terms of introducing all the necessary regulations and accounting mechanisms and being able to publish that plan within that first five-year period. We would very much hope—. Obviously, as you've mentioned, the declaration of a climate emergency came after that plan had been published, and then we saw the further advice coming from the UK Committee on Climate Change in May, recommending that the targets increased from 80 per cent to 95 per cent. We welcome the fact that the Minister wants to go even beyond that 95 per cent target. So, I guess we feel that Welsh Government have got quite a big job on their hands in terms of work towards publishing the next low-carbon Wales plan in 2021 to reflect the next five-year budget period. The actions within that plan will have to be a lot more ambitious than what we've seen to date.

Isn't it a bit—? You miss a lower target, so you set a higher target. I'm not sure I would have done that. But anyway.

Well, they're Government targets, aren't they? So, we'll ask that to the Minister next week, I think. Mark.

You say you welcome the Welsh Government saying it will go further than what the committee on climate change says, but, elsewhere, don't you welcome that they're following the advice of the committee on climate change? Which of those is it to be? I mean, if we haven't got a plan to get to 95 per cent reduction, why welcome just asserting, 'Oh well, we're going to get to 100 per cent'?

The UK Committee on Climate Change have got the expertise in terms of advising Welsh Government on what needs to happen or what policies need to be put in place in terms of achieving the emission-reduction targets. So, we would very much suggest that they take the advice of the committee as the expert advisers.

But didn't you say just now that you welcome them saying they would go further and, notwithstanding advice to have a 95 per cent cut, they would have 100 per cent cut?

We welcome the commitment and the ambition from the Ministers, but, I guess, being realistic on what can actually be achieved in Wales as well.

10:55

Do you think they have given sufficient or indeed any consideration of the long-term requirements for the Welsh budget to obtain this reduction, whether a 95 per cent or net-zero target? There was a suggestion of potentially—it was very broad brush—an estimate of £1 billion per year of the Welsh Government budget to take those measures. Is that something that Welsh Government is seriously planning for?

We would probably say that it is very challenging to have that longer term view, given the annual budget cycles that they need to operate within, but on the whole, we'd say that the detail in terms of that long-term planning is largely missing from the draft narrative.

So, you're working with the New Economics Foundation and Social Finance, which I know less about. The assessing of the budget, and we've had some discussion with the finance Minister on various projects or initiatives that she has announced, on what are the relative impacts on climate change or at least emissions of them, and I think broadly, we've been disappointed with the answers so far. I just wonder, even if you can get to an assessment that's better than now of what the impacts are, don't we need to go further than that and assess what would be the potential impacts of things we're not doing? For example, substantial investment in electric buses—we assume potentially for Cardiff, perhaps one or two other big cities—what's the impact of that spending compared to, say, providing some buses in, for example, Blaenau Gwent, where there have been significant cuts to the bus service? We're not seeing increases in the bus subsidy that some people think might be a more effective way of tackling emissions for a fixed budget. 

Prioritisation of spend is obviously critically important, and in the budget improvement plan, the Government has committed to assessing and building the evidence base in order to be able to make those strategic decisions about where spend is best placed. However, I think linking back to your comments on the budget improvement plan, there can be a tendency, especially in the context of an emergency, to say, 'Well, we must wait; we must wait until we have the evidence.' If everybody around the world keeps waiting until the evidence is absolutely perfect and the best evidence, then we'll be too late. So, action is going to need to be taken, and there are already emerging examples around the world where scientifically led decarbonisation policy is being channelled through budgeting. We were going to bring up the example of the Oslo climate budget where, okay, albeit at a city level, the annual budget is firmly tied into an evidence-led suite of decarbonisation policies, which have been through a prioritisation process such as that. 

I don't think the suggestion is that we shouldn't do anything until everything can be measured absolutely accurately and we can be certain which is going to be best, there surely should be a middle way. Isn't there more Welsh Government should be doing on the various initiatives—and they're spending this £140 million extra on capital projects—shouldn't it at least be assessing in a more rigorous way, as it is spending that money, which of that spending is being most effective and publish an evidence base regarding that?

Yes, I'd agree with that. 

We haven't committed to doing that for the entirety of the Welsh Government budget, because that would be a huge exercise, and we don't believe it's our role. So, what we've been trying to do is to, as I say, bring in expertise from other organisations and explore solutions from other places across the world to see what can be done.

Can I preface what I think will be my final question? I'm open to the idea that it may be the future generations commissioner is the right place to be doing this; I'm not suggesting it is not. I just wonder what is the rationale, as you see it, for it being your office that should be leading on this work, particularly now that, rather than doing that in-house, you're the mechanism that outsources that work to others? Why is that the right model? Is that the model Welsh Government's going down, as you see it, or is your initiative just one of a number that they're doing in terms of this assessment? And to the extent that you are doing it, why is that the right way, in your view, if it is, to do that work?

11:00

I'm not sure I'm understanding the question correctly, so apologies if the answer doesn't—

—answer it. But we've made the decision that the budget is an important piece of work for the commissioner and that we will, on an annual basis, work with Welsh Government to provide advice and support, but also to scrutinise the budget process as well. We don't feel we have sufficient expertise within our team, hence the reason for looking to source that externally.

In an ideal world, we would want the Welsh Government to develop their own understanding and capacity to do this internally. I know from working with the decarbonisation team within Welsh Government that they are, unfortunately, a very small team with very limited resource and capacity just to cover the policy commitments that are needed across Government. So, this would be an additional area that they would need to start looking at in terms of looking at the link between the policies, the actions and the best way for Welsh Government to spend its budget to support those. But, yes, as I say, over the long term, we would hope that they are able to bring in expertise and develop their own internal capacity and understanding—

You say the ideal way is within Welsh Government. Isn't there, though, an argument for a degree of independence in measuring the various options, and if so, is the future generations commissioner's office the right place to do that, or is it external organisations who bring a greater degree of independence?

Again, we'd see a role for, potentially, the UK climate change committee. They're the statutory advisers and they have the broad range of expertise needed in the various policy areas as well. So, I'm not saying that we're best placed to do this.

Yes, just briefly. Whilst, I think, agreeing with Mark that there needs to be an element of independence, certainly, is pushing for and asking why there isn't more capacity within that decarbonisation team in Welsh Government a key part of our ask, now, whilst also reflecting on the fact that this needs to be cross-departmental? We can't just leave this in the decarbonisation team's hands.

Can I come in on that? My understanding from when we were speaking with the decarbonisation team is that, at the moment, their brief is seen very much as overseeing progress on the national carbon budget. It's a bit unfortunate that that uses the word 'budget', because it means that we start confusing what we're talking about. We have our five-yearly carbon budgets, but they're not actually budgets from the Welsh Government's point of view, it's a national thing. Now, we're talking about what are the Government's spending decisions' impacts upon that national context, and now we're debating whose responsibility that is. I think there might be an argument that that decarbonisation team within the Government would be the appropriate place for that to take place.

One thing that we are arguing for is that the carbon impact assessments that would need to take place systematically across Government would need to be aggregated in a central location, and maybe that's the location. But it's going to need to be a cross-departmental shift in the way that the Government does things to get those impact assessments done consistently across the board.

We've talked a lot about expenditure, can I talk about income, or, effectively, taxation? Landfill tax will go up again this year, as it goes up every year, but we aren't seeing any action on single-use plastic cups—taxing single-use plastic cups, taxing a whole range of carbon-expensive items, and the more we put up landfill taxes, the more we make it economically better to engage in incineration. Should we have an incineration tax, because we know that incineration cannot produce less carbon than landfill? It'll almost certainly produce more, but unless we're rewriting the laws of chemistry and physics, it cannot produce less. Therefore, shouldn't we be taxing incineration? If you put a plastic body into landfill where it sits there for, what is it, 1,000 years or whatever, that's bad. If you actually burn it and throw out some nitrous oxide, carbon dioxide, that's good. I don't understand, in terms of carbon, why that is the case. 

11:05

I'm not a waste expert, so I'm not going to focus on the specifics of that particular case, but I would like to take the broader question about what the appropriate mechanism is to deal with sources of carbon. There are a whole suite of things that the Government can do, ranging through investment spend, regulation, taxation, behaviour change initiatives, things like that. A package of all of those is likely to be appropriate to deal with an emergency. The Government should be drawing on every lever that it can, but what we would say, or at least, certainly, the New Economics Foundation, is that using levers that are not Government spend but are regulation or taxation based, should be done with due caution to the fact that that may impact on the poorest within society and ultimately costs may filter down to unintended recipients of those costs, whereas costs borne by the state—and this is where it relates to the budget, investment and spend—the Government has a degree of control over who those can then be borne on.

Can I come back to you on that? Let's take a classic example: some of us are old enough to remember when you went to a chip shop, they gave you chips in paper. Now, they tend to give it to you in a plastic tray. Now, I'm not sure how that—

But a number of them give it to you in a plastic tray. Can I say that that is not impinging on the poorest in society, by any stretch of the imagination—whether they're in paper or a plastic tray? But the taxation of those plastic trays would actually change behaviour in such a way that we would return to using greaseproof paper and newspapers. So, I'm not sure that all these behaviour taxes are going to hit poor people; some of them are just going to change behaviours. You could have said exactly the same about the 5p levy on carrier bags, because everybody had to pay it. But what we've seen is a lot of people don't pay it, because they take their own bags now. 

Absolutely. The Government's going to need to have a holistic assessment of where the different sources of carbon are, and where the appropriate mechanisms to deal with that source of carbon come from and what they might look like. For sure, that's part of this evidence base that we're discussing and is mentioned in the budget improvement plan. That's that evidence base; that's saying we know mostly where the sources of carbon are, but what's the appropriate way to get to them and to tackle them? But within the context of the budget, the wider debate is about how much of it falls on Government spending. We talked about percentages of how much is being targeted through spending versus how much might go through new legislation, regulations and things like that. 

Sorry—what you've said is absolutely right if we'd had this conversation three years ago, but now the Government have got taxation powers as well. I mean, you can't just say, 'They need to spend this'; there are taxation powers they could use. But you don't, any of you, have any views on incineration as a means of pumping more carbon dioxide in than putting things in landfill. 

In terms of our response to that, we haven't looked into it in detail. We don't have the technical expertise on this particular area, so we'd have to go away and look at it before we'd be able to give you a response to that. 

Okay, that's fair enough. That's fine. Okay, we'll move on to Rhun. Oh, sorry, David—yes, okay. 

In large, established programmes like waste disposal, you would expect, if we have a climate emergency, to be addressing some of these issues. I don't know the technicalities, and I'm not asking you to comment on them, but it might be necessary to go back to some landfill, for instance, and try to eliminate as much incineration as possible, whereas five or six years ago, that wouldn't have been the general drift. In the budgeting process long term, if we're talking about prevention and long-term measures, we should be looking at that. Industrial investment—we should be looking at that. There are huge issues about certain large employers that we back at considerable cost, and are big carbon emitters. Should we be taking a different approach and perhaps preparing those economies for alternatives that are much greener? The whole housing programme and the way that we deliver energy—these are big, big factors. Should we still be farming marginal land? George Monbiot would be talking about all these things, wouldn't he, if he was before us. We may be dismissing some of these, but if you put a higher value on woodland, then I'm sure lots of farmers would be quite happy to go into that. They are ultimately about being entrepreneurs. Is there any sign of this sort of vitality now coming into our forward-looking, longer term budget process?

11:10

That's a big question. 

I'm not saying, 'Have they come up with the answers', but are these the things that they're now starting to address and look at? Because we're in an emergency, apparently. The Minister has stood in front of the Assembly and said, 'We have a climate emergency.' Well, okay, if there's an emergency, you'd expect some emergency responses. If something as extraordinary as that needs to be stated, then there needs to be an extraordinary response, doesn't there? Otherwise, why state it?

So I guess your point refers to the fact that we know where our emissions come from in Wales, and in terms of the breakdown of those emissions, areas such as power generation and industry form a huge percentage of Wales's emissions, and I guess that we would acknowledge that the Welsh Government's budget process isn't able to probably do very much in terms of those high-emitting sectors. So when we've looked at decarbonisation within the Welsh Government's budget previously, we've made the decision to focus on areas such as transport, housing, et cetera, areas where we feel Welsh Government are able to make more of an impact in terms of changing the way they think about investment allocation.

I can see that that's pragmatic, but what about future investment to sustain those levels? What should the Welsh Government's attitude to that be, not current fixed expenditures that would cause huge disruption to reverse? What about the future? That's what I'm talking about.

Yes. We've not been able to have these conversations, I guess, with Welsh Government in terms of looking at their holistic approach, so I don't feel I'm in a position to answer that.

I don't think that the long-term plan is in place just yet. In defence of the Government, they are awaiting the next round of advice from the Committee on Climate Change, which will enable that and make that easier to do. But I think a long-term plan is absolutely going to be essential. With the well-being of future generations Act in place and the focus actually on prevention, then there's the cross between those two issues, decarbonisation and prevention. The Welsh Government is now in a position to lead the way on this internationally, I would argue, and a great example of where that's going to come up is in the redesign of the common agricultural policy, which is going to tap into some of those issues you've just raised about land and how it's managed and looked after, and can we shift, for example, that system to one that has a prevention focus in terms of how those payments are made, in the area including decarbonisation, but other areas of well-being as well that relate to Wales's land stock as well. 

Very briefly from Alun and then we'll come on to Rhun. 

I'm listening to this exchange, but, really, we need to have a slightly different conversation, don't we, about the role and the structure of public finances, because at the end of the day, when all is said and done, core business has to be maintained. We've got to pay the wage bill for the NHS, we've got to pay for teachers to sit in front of classrooms and the rest of it, and nobody's arguing that we close Nevill Hall Hospital to plant trees. Nobody's arguing that. Is it unrealistic to believe that we can meet the ambitions of a climate emergency within current budgets? And, if we're serious about restructuring the role of the public sphere in its wider sense, we've got to increase taxes, because we need additional resources to do it. And anything else is really dancing on the head of a pin. 

I'd agree with Alex's previous point; we recognise this is an emergency and it means that Welsh Government need to use all levers possible and engage the public and look at the role of behaviour change, individually and organisationally, and wider, culturally, is a very important aspect as well. 

So, are you saying you think they should raise taxes when you say, 'Use all levers'?

I don't think I said that. Again, I'm not an expert and I wouldn't be able to provide that answer.

11:15

But there is this balance between being able to resource some of the initiatives and some of the changes that we need to see, and whether you do that through taxation or whether you do decide that, actually, you stop doing certain things.  

Alex Chapman 11:15:16