National Assembly for Wales

I'd like to welcome Members to committee this morning. I move to item 1. We have no apologies this morning, and if there are any declarations of interest, if Members can say so now.

In that case, I move to item 2. We only have one paper to note this morning, and it's a letter from the Public Accounts Committee regarding the Welsh Government's support for businesses. Are Members happy to note that?

Then we move to item 3, which is our short piece of work on city deals: an update. Next week, we have other growth deals, south Wales, Cardiff and Swansea deals in, and this week, later this morning, we've got north Wales. And this morning, our first session is an update on the mid Wales growth deal. So, we have members from the Growing Mid Wales partnership in this morning. Perhaps I could ask the leader of Powys and cabinet member from Ceredigion to introduce themselves for the public record first, and then I'll come to officers. 

Thank you, and thank you for inviting us to be here today. I'm county councillor Rosemarie Harris and I'm the leader of Powys County Council. Powys is an enormous county, and I'm from the deep south, in the Brecon Beacons.

I also thank you for the invitation. Firstly, can I apologise on behalf of Ellen ap Gwynn, the leader? She's been poorly for the last two or three days, and I don't think that she'd want to miss a session like this. But I'm her deputy and I'm the cabinet member for economy and regeneration for Ceredigion.

Chief executive from Ceredigion County Council.

Good morning all. I'm Nigel Brinn. I'm the corporate director for the economy and environment at Powys County Council.

Well, thank you for being with us this morning, and please pass the committee's best wishes on to Councillor ap Gwynn. From what I know of Councillor ap Gwynn, I agree with you: she would want to be here, I'm sure, this morning if she could be. 

If I could ask the first question; perhaps I'll ask Councillor Harris. It is 12 months since you were last here with Councillor ap Gwynn. You updated us then on progress that had been made. What progress has been made since you were last with us last January? 

Quite a lot of progress has been made. We've developed the inter-authority agreement, so we have a joint committee set up between the two authorities. We meet in either authority. If we're meeting in Powys, I chair; if we meet in Ceredigion, then the leader of Ceredigion chairs. We've done all the legal work beneath that. We've set up an economic strategy group, and we have appointed a chairman. The chairman is Fiona Stewart, who is the owner and managing director of the Green Man music festival in Crickhowell. Powys has got something like nine members of that group, and Ceredigion has got four or five members.

We have officer groups, as you know. We explained to you when we were last here that AECOM did a report for us. Out of that came six themes. We have officer groups working on those themes and reporting back. We're in the process of working to set up our own regional learning and skills partnership for Ceredigion and Powys, because we recognise that that's one of the major areas that we need to improve on—developing skills. We continue to work with our businesses. We meet them sometimes on a one-to-one basis, but that work continues, so that they are very much in the loop. We've also worked on developing a mid Wales energy strategy. We're also working on developing business sites or acquiring business sites—premises sites—because that's another area that we need to work on.

One of our main challenges, and I'm sure that I don't need to tell you this, Chairman, is infrastructure. So, there's a lot of work that's got to go on there—infrastructure being the grid, the electricity grid; broadband, and the provision in all the rural areas that are not very well served at the moment; the mobile network; roads. There's a lot of work going on. In terms of roads, it probably affects Powys more than it does Ceredigion, and we're working—. We’ve had meetings with the Government in London. We've met with the Minister here, to try and unblock—. We need to open up the whole region and, in other ways, we need to work to the east as well, to the Midlands Engine and, hopefully, to the Northern Powerhouse area. So, there's all of that work, and there are strands of work going on in all of those areas.

Perhaps if I look to Councillor Evans and ask if there's anything that you want to add to that, but, more specifically, are there any areas that have moved perhaps slower than you would have liked to have seen?

I think that, since we signed the inter-authority agreement and all that, we are progressing. We're going at quite a good pace at the moment. We've had a lot of member work groups. We've had a lot of discussions and a lot of close working to make sure that, from what came out from AECOM and all that, we know exactly the themes and where we're going. I think it has been very positive.

I think that one thing that needs some guidance now is that, obviously, we had that announcement from Alun Cairns regarding the £55 million, perhaps that is being set as a down payment. We need to know really where we are. We need to know that. Also, the money, perhaps, the match funding, we are still working on the third principle of commitment here. I'm just thinking that, the way that it's going, perhaps, moving forward, we need to make sure that there's enough money there for extra resources to go forward with the portfolio, as they call it, so having that five-case business plan and making things progress, because, as Growing Mid Wales, we are very eager to move on because we know how important something like this is for our area.

And just to clarify, the third: third: third principle is third Welsh Government support, third UK Government support, third private sector support, and there's—. What about local authority support? That's in there somewhere as well, isn't it? 

That's in the mix as well. 

That's in the mix as well, yes. 

I think what's crucial to emphasise here, to support what Councillor Harris and Councillor Evans have said, is that, up to this point, both local authorities have put a significant amount of additional resource and commitment into the efforts to get to where we are today. What we are waiting with bated breath for are some key announcements from Welsh Government now. We've had in-principle commitments from civil servants to say that there will be potentially additional resources made available to us to help us prepare the five-case business models. We need that confirmation of that funding source coming through sooner rather than later. We've had it verbally, nothing in writing. 

Councillor Harris mentioned the regional—

And what have you had verbally?

Sorry?

What confirmation have you had verbally?

That there will be some revenue—extra revenue support—coming through so that we can create a programme team. At the moment, both economic development teams, in Powys and Ceredgion, are working as a single entity to put all of the documentation together and both authorities have put additional funding to appoint a project manager. In times of austerity, that's a pretty large commitment for both authorities. What we would hope was that there would be a little bit extra to pump prime some of this so that we could create a programme team—a designated regional programme team—that could add pace to the creation of the documentation that's required to illustrate to both Welsh Government and Westminster the extent of the global vision we have for mid Wales. 

Right, okay. Councillor Harris?

If I could add to that, Mr Chairman, I think it also has to be remembered that we, in this growth deal, are only two authorities. So, there are only two authorities that are able to put money into any pot. We've got this bid in, we're waiting to hear. It should make an enormous difference to us but, at the moment, our staff, from both areas, are doing their day jobs and doing the growth deal work at the same time. We've got one dedicated officer, but otherwise—. So, it's quite a lot of pressure on them. 

And Nigel Brinn wanted to come in. 

Thank you, Chair. Yes, I was going to make a very, very similar point. I think, in simple terms—I use the same phrase quite often—we have a programme officer rather than a programme office supported by the teams, as Eifion and Rosemary have just mentioned. I have looked at other deals, in terms of contributions from local authorities, and we're putting at least a similar amount in but, as Eifion has rightly pointed out, there are only two partners. So, clearly, the money doesn't— 

So, what are you asking for? Are you asking for more money because of the need to— 

We're asking for some support from Welsh Government to effectively match what we're putting in so we can expedite the work really and just crack on. We know we're going to require some third party expertise to put a business case together and for this portfolio of interventions we've talked about. Forgive me dropping into some of the growth deal terminology, but that seems to be how we term such things. We're looking at a programme of interventions, which obviously include some physical projects or separate physical projects, all of which are going to require significant assessment in terms of business cases to satisfy Welsh Government finance and, of course, HM Treasury as well.   

Right. There are a lot of questions that have come from what you've said. But, no—. Other Members will have questions, so I won't go into some of what you said at the moment. But just to ask one more point, I know that last time when you were here with us, 12 months ago, you talked about 

'there will be business cases having been prepared for different projects. We'll actually be talking projects by then.'

But I can see from your evidence paper that that's not the case yet. Is that right? Are there projects in the pipeline specifically?

What we've done, just to be absolutely clear, as the work has evolved and as the joint committee's strategic direction that they've given us as officers has been made clear to us, is—. This is a 15-year plan and what we see is we have to have those broad thematic approaches. What will support the foundation economy of mid Wales? What will drive economic growth in mid Wales in the future? Now, over that 15-year period, individual small projects will drop in and out of the vision. Some may be relevant, some may be irrelevant. What we weren't going to do was constrain ourselves to a project, put all our eggs in one basket and say, 'That's the great white hope to save mid Wales is that project', only to find six to nine months down the line that, 'No, that isn't the case.'

So, what we've done is we've taken the principles of the five-case business model, looking broadly at the strategic outline to begin with, boiling it down then through the outline business case stage, so that we have these portfolios of ideas coming together, and at a later date we will be focusing in on full business cases when we see, under those thematic areas, specifically what will actually deliver the outcomes that we desire at this point. 

So, the thought processes that are occurring within the teams in order to give this programme the longevity that it needs—you've got to think in that way. It's got to be a very strategic way of thinking about it. And, as I said, to reiterate, it's not about finding a way to spend £55 million tomorrow in mid Wales. The £55 million as a down payment for future projects is there to inspire us to think over 15 years. 

Okay. I'll come on to Members who have got a couple of questions. Vikki Howells. 

Thank you, Chair. I'd like to dig down a little into the proposed funding model for the growth deal. Firstly, when Councillor Ellen ap Gwynn was here with us, about a year ago actually, she said that, in terms of the funding: 

'What's been intimated is up to £200 million from London, a similar match from Cardiff',

and then to draw down private funding as well. So, I was just wondering whether that sort of figure still stands or whether anything has changed at all in the past year. 

Myself, I think, and I think we all do, if we had that £200 million, if we had that third, third and third, that would be great. We have, as both councils, been talking to businesses and all that. Obviously, it's commercially sensitive, but there are a lot of businesses. Do you know what? One thing that has come out quite clearly is that inclusive growth and all that, and the way that's providing equality of opportunity and getting people—. We need those people skilled up, getting better quality jobs. And one of the main aims is to increase the gross value added and to get better quality jobs to places like Ceredigion and Powys as a whole, because it's important. But, yes, the ambition is, if there was £200 million coming down from Government, and then the same as match funding and the same from the private sector, that would be ideal, that would be great. 

If I could add to that, Chairman, I think it's quite important that we don't limit our ambition. This is a 15-year programme, and, if you break that amount down, it doesn't come to an awful lot, really, per year. And also, during the course of a 15-year programme, say five or six years in, technology will have improved, there will be new, innovative ideas. We may come up with something that we haven't come up with at the moment, and I would hope that we would have the opportunity still to look at funding for that. So, I think, yes, £200 million—I'm not sure where that actual figure first appeared from. It was something that was plucked out of the air, really. Not by us, it was suggested to us in the very early days. But I think we can aim higher. 

Vikki Howells. 

Regarding the figure that the previous Secretary of State described as a down payment for the deal, the £55 million that's already been alluded to, if I can just clarify there, have there been any further discussions regarding that figure?

No. No, Chairman. There haven't been any discussions yet, but there will be. Obviously, there's been the election and there's been quite a lot going on. But we certainly do intend to pursue that, and we hope to hold them to their word that it was a £55 million down payment. And we quote that figure everywhere, all the time—down payment. [Laughter.] 

Nigel Brinn, you want to come in.

Thank you, Chair, if I may, in terms of an officer perspective. Obviously, there's liaison with both Governments. In fact, there was a meeting here in Cardiff yesterday with civil servants from Cardiff and from Westminster to move the whole programme of projects of the growth deal forward, which clearly leads very quickly into the numbers and how we can define that and clarify that.

And re-emphasising two points that have been made already, the term 'down payment' has been used, and that's how we see it. It is about not limiting our ambition, which is a phrase that's been used quite a lot, and that is a clear direction, a clear steer we're getting from both sets of civil servants. It's all about the quality of the projects, not some artificial barrier of £x hundred million.

Joyce wanted to come in. 

I just want to explore this promissory note of £55 million, when it was made and what authority was behind it exactly. Because you say you've quoted it everywhere and that's, I'm sure, fine. But what we really need to know is how realistic was that promise.

The promise was made—. Of course, we had a by-election—

I know. 

—in Powys, as you know, and the promise was made at that time. But it was followed by a visit, and we were all asked to meet with the Secretary of State, and that promise was made again in Powys county hall. So, we have taken it, and there has been correspondence. We have taken it that that is actually a very firm promise and is a down payment.

So, in other words, it seems to me that it was a bribe for the election.   

Well, that's a view, so we won't comment.

It was said at the time of the election. 

We won't comment on that. Vikki Howells. 

Thank you. Could you clarify for us the amount of private sector investment that the growth deal will be seeking to lever in as a direct consequence of projects being delivered? 

If I come in there, with the private sector involvement, both Councillor Harris and Councillor Ellen ap Gwynn have invested a huge amount of time and effort meeting with businesses across mid Wales. Firstly, to glean an understanding of what their ambitions are and what their aspirations are as organisations moving forward, but also both councils have met with potential businesses that are currently not based in mid Wales that may want to come and establish their businesses in mid Wales at a future date.

The conversations we've had have been specifically around their scale of commitment. What's important to us is there are some key component parts that we need to address, which have already been mentioned by Councillor Harris. In order to make mid Wales the most attractive place we possibly can for them to come, we need to have a combination of factors in place.

First and foremost is the appropriate skills of the potential workforce they require. So, not having our own designated regional learning and skills partnership to date is a hamstring to us in mid Wales, because we need to be mapping out career pathways that lead into pathways into employment. These private sector companies are telling us that technology is the future. They're looking for science, technology, engineering and mathematics qualifications, they're looking for high-end, high academic achievement of learners. We've got that—that's one thing that mid Wales has got in abundance—our learning outcomes are pretty impressive and the retention rates going on to study A-levels is impressive.

What happens after that is, because that growth is stifled in mid Wales because of a lack of investment over a period of time, our learners tend to drift out of mid Wales. But what the private sector is telling us is, if we could align the curriculum at school-based age, at further eduction, at higher education levels, specifically training the workforce for the needs that they want, that's a clear indication why they would come and set up here.

The other important component parts then, and what Councillor Harris has referenced, are around the infrastructure of all of this. We need easy access to mid Wales; we need to make sure that connectivity is strong and robust across mid Wales. But those are component parts that would support a growth deal. I wouldn't want you to think that we're suggesting that infrastructure is what we're pushing for in the growth deal. We need that as a subsidiary of the growth deal itself.

So, the private sector have given us quite a clear commitment that there are a number of unique selling points in mid Wales that would attract them there. So, we just need to get those building blocks in place now to make it happen. 

So, would I be correct in taking from that then that what you're looking at is, rather than putting a ballpark figure on the amount of investment, you're looking at the quality of the investment?

Yes. 

And if I can just pick up on one of the points that you raised there as well, where you talked about the discussions with firms from outside the area, that ties in nicely actually to the final question that I wanted to ask, which is the fact that, in 2017, this committee received some evidence that highlighted a concern there was a limited number of companies and high-value-added firms located within the region. So, the work that you're doing, is that specifically reaching out to try and combat that, so that the growth deal can be maximised?

The strength that we have is in the people who live in mid Wales. As I said, learner outcomes are high in mid Wales, across the mid Wales belt. We do have a wealth of people who could lend themselves to technological research and innovation-type programmes across the whole of the region. We just need to give them the opportunity to get jobs in those parts of the world. So, there are companies now identifying what is unique about mid Wales: clean air, you've got a combination of everything that you need as a test bed to develop and research technologies. So, suddenly, it's becoming—. The more we can raise the profile of mid Wales internationally, and show them what—. I used the phrase in the last meeting that mid Wales, in my opinion, is the 'sleeping giant' of Wales. It's an untouched, untapped part of Wales that can lend itself to economic growth on a scale we haven't even started to imagine yet. 

Nigel Brinn wanted to come in. 

Thank you, Chair. A couple of very quick points in support of what's been said. Of course, a reciprocal of not perhaps having the anchor companies is that the foundation economy is more important to us in mid Wales. That's something we're keen to promote. So, intervention should actually support all types of business and all sizes. But a very interesting meeting yesterday afternoon with Welsh Government colleagues from economic development. Many businesses are known to us already across the authority, but also their interactions with industry. Lots of very creative, very innovative businesses that are looking to expand struggle to attract staff with the right skills, which has already been touched on by Eifion, but also facilities as well, in terms of premises of suitable sizes, et cetera. We know there is a shortage of suitable premises across mid Wales.

So, there are a number of interventions we're trying. We're not going to plug everything with the growth deal. It's not a panacea, to use an overused phrase. But if we can support existing initiatives—. We've talked about transport, well, there is a national transport finance plan. We're not going to replicate any of that, or indeed enhance it with the growth deal, because the money won't go that far. But we're looking to work alongside other initiatives and make sure we get the most money from our interventions. 

Okay. Hefin David. 

Councillor Harris, when you visited the committee in January 2019, a year ago, you said that the ambition was a 5 per cent uplift in gross value added, and the creation of 4,000 jobs. Is that still a realistic ambition?

Yes. It still has to be our ambition. Can I pick up the point that was made earlier? In terms of investment from the private sector, we are aware of some very exciting projects out there, planned by the private sector, but we're not quite at the stage yet where we can take that sort of thing forward. I'm sorry, I'm trying to tie it to the question that you ask. There is a lot of quite exciting stuff out there, but it's early days yet as far as we're concerned. 

It's a year on from when you last visited the committee, and I'm getting a mixed picture of the progress that's been made in that year. So, I'm testing not necessarily whether it is the ambition, but whether that ambition remains realistic, given some of the external risks and challenges that you're facing at the moment. 

The ambition remains realistic; it has to. We have to raise the bar for our young people within the county, we have to raise skills; and it's possible to do that. We have explained that it has been slow progress; I would agree with that. I can remember, when I was here last time, saying that we would hope that, by this stage, we would be looking at projects. There have been discussions about projects, but they're still in the early days. But I think we've explained that we've had—. It's been difficult to provide enough staff to take everything forward. We've got a bid in for the ESF funding. Hopefully, things will go up a gear from now on. 

I can't help reflecting on—

Did Rhodri want to come in? I think Rhodri might want to come in. 

Sorry.

That's fine. I'll just say, regarding the inclusive growth, that's one of the Government's economic action plans. Just by having inclusive growth and empowering people and getting that that will cause better jobs, which will, in line, increase the amount they are paid and, in return, the GVA.

It just seems to be relying an awful lot on optimism, and less on tangible steps. 

As Councillor Harris has said previously, there's an awful lot that's going on in the background that is commercially sensitive at the moment and, in a public forum like this, it wouldn't be appropriate for us to divulge too much of that. But, I would want to give you my reassurance that there's an awful lot of stuff going on that is extremely exciting at the moment within the region. 

Okay, I trust you on that. One of the things I was comparing earlier was my view of the Cardiff capital region situation, which seems to be well resourced in terms of staffing. Is that the biggest risk to the deal—expertise and lack of expertise, or the lack of availability of an amount of expertise? 

I wouldn't say that that's the biggest risk. The biggest risk at the moment is the delay in possibly firm commitments being given, because we're looking for—we're waiting with bated breath for an announcement from the Minister imminently to recognise mid Wales as the fourth economic region of Wales. That, in itself, will lead on to an announcement from civil servants to tell us that we will then be allowed to create our own regional learning and skills partnership, designated for mid Wales. We then would be able to have confirmation of funding coming through to set up a programme board, so there are risks—

So, the critical mass exists. 

The critical mass exists between us, but what we need is that firm commitment now from Welsh Government, from Westminster Government, that you're also serious about this. 

Okay. It was just something that had struck me earlier. Nigel Brinn, I think it was you who said about the fact that you're two local authorities, and compared with Cardiff capital region, it's a different thing, isn't it? 

Yes, very much so. It is a resourcing issue. Clearly, if we're looking to invest hundreds of millions of pounds worth of public funds, you'd expect there to be a significant team of people behind monitoring and controlling and managing that, but that, now, would be the programme office. Certainly, other regions are resourced more than us. It's not necessarily an expertise issue; I think it's just capacity and resource. 

Could I just very, very quickly comment on the project versus programmes issue? We've been directed very, very clearly to focus on the programme portfolio, a series of interventions and not individual projects, and that's exactly what we're doing. So, we'll have this overarching vision, the 'proposition document', as it's called in growth-deal speak, and our projects then will fit in to the overall aspirations within there. So, we've talked about skills quite a bit this morning, but if it's a skills project, it would have to fit in to the overall skills ambition. 

And, finally, very, very quickly, we've talked about metrics, again—forgive the lingo and the terminology—but I think what we're looking at, we're talking about GVA and jobs, but we're also looking at some more specific things for mid Wales, because the sort of metrics you'd expect, perhaps, for the capital city region may not readily apply as well, or transfer as directly to mid Wales. So, things like, if you're looking at skills, then do we improve and increase our educational attainment and retention of pupils within the region? If it's low-carbon, do we look at the metric along the low-carbon side and try and be slightly more creative in terms of our outputs, because, clearly, we'll be measured against any investment eventually against our outputs, that is more specific and more appropriate to the mid Wales region, perhaps, than other regions. 

Okay. And with those, in some ways, intangibles at this point in time, in mind, having been a county councillor and committee member, scrutiny is obviously one of the key roles of members, how is all of this going to be scrutinised by elected members, and how are you going to be pinned to the ambitions that you've set?

Well, I think that scrutiny is a process, and when the ESG is set up, and all that, well, that's another layer that will be scrutinised, which is an important element of the whole growth deal. 

ESGs?

Economic strategy group. 

Sorry.

And are there elected members on the ESG?

No. The economic strategy group is made up of private sector business leaders from both areas. 

Okay. So, where does the elected member come into this with regard to scrutiny?

In terms of Powys at the moment, we're setting up a joint scrutiny committee, so there'll be joint scrutiny. But, at the moment, we've been setting up all the structure really, the infrastructure behind it. But I have to say, in Powys, we're doing seminars for the members to brief all the members. Between us, of course, we cover 40 per cent of Wales, so there are a lot of members; there's a lot of information to be shared. But, in terms of other scrutiny, we are keeping in touch with our businesses as well, and I envisage perhaps another round of business breakfasts, that type of thing, which is what we did before. We know more now; we've got more information to share, and we certainly will have more as we go on. 

What I think democratic services are doing now within Ceredigion and Powys is, as the growth deal is evolving, first and foremost, you ask the question about the democratic involvement of both Councillor Harris and Councillor Ellen ap Gwynn, with designated members of both cabinets, who sit on the joint committee and give the strategic direction. Underneath that then—

As a career backbencher, that doesn't—

For the scrutiny component part of it. In reality, when we have clear commitments, then you would bring a joint scrutiny committee together. But what we do to make sure that there's clarity and parity in the scrutiny processes at the moment is that both democratic services are aligning scrutiny programmes. So, when you look at forward work programmes for scrutiny in Ceredigion, and scrutiny forward work programmes in Powys, the type of local scrutiny that's happening at the moment is running in parallel in relation to the growth deal. But once we have the firm commitments that we've mentioned previously coming together, and this becomes a reality in moving forward, then moving to a joint scrutiny approach is going to be absolutely crucial, so that the joint committee is scrutinised by joint scrutiny as well. 

Yes, the cabinet committee scrutinised by a scrutiny committee. 

Yes. 

We've actually had to learn from other city deal and growth deal areas as well. There have been some mistakes made, and we've watched very carefully. That's one of the benefits of being the last deal, to be honest with you.

But I think one thing that's important is that all members are briefed quite regularly in both authorities to make sure that they're all up to speed on what is happening, and, also, the workshops we've had for members as well, with businesses within the two counties, what we've got already, and what their needs are as well, for them also to develop as larger businesses, and getting that skill set and role in place. 

So, if, Councillor Evans, and Councillor Harris, you were to return to the back benches tomorrow, you would be confident that you would have the power to find out what is happening with the growth deal and scrutinise it appropriately. 

We'd have enough information to be able to ask the questions. [Laughter.]

Well, that's a different thing. [Laughter.]

Just to pick up on the question of scrutiny, because Councillor Harris talked about having business breakfasts. And I'm just conscious that we've already talked about there being a lack of anchor companies in the region. So, we're a small business economy, and it's those small businesses, if they want to scrutinise the deal, how can that take place? I think Councillor Harris talked about business breakfasts, but there'll be many businesses that, perhaps, won't be aware of the business breakfast, or that won't be able to attend because they're perhaps small businesses unable to make those meetings. How can a small business find out and scrutinise? So, there are two things—find out and scrutinise. Is there a website you can go to to find out what's going on?

This would be a specific function of the economic strategy group, because, rather than—. And this is why it needs its own integrity, so that—. They are a private sector; they are successful individuals and companies within the private sector, and when the economic strategy group, when we start putting our proposal documents together, when we start talking about the skills agenda, when we're talking about all sorts of component parts, which has already been referenced, we want the economic strategy group to have an independent scrutiny of our direction of travel.

But what we also want them to do is to be the voice of exactly what you've just referenced there—the smaller companies. So, Fiona Stewart as chair and the other representative members will be the go-to people from the private sector that they can, if they want to get their voice in—. One thing that we haven't mentioned to date, but we began by Councillor Harris referencing the inter-authority agreement, within the inter-authority agreement, the joint committee is the overarching governing board, but the chair of the economic strategy group has a voting seat on the joint committee. So, the private sector—. I think that's a crucial point, because that's giving the private sector a significant voice in this growth deal, and possibly, that's quite unique to all of the growth deal areas. 

Is there a vote? So, that's one vote against how many? Does it have to be a unanimous decision of the board?

Well, at the moment, we're at a point where there isn't anything to vote on; it's just about—. It's a discussion at this point in time, and that will evolve over a period of time. But what we're trying to emphasise is that we are giving the private sector a significant voice here. 

But can the private sector say, 'No, the ESG—'? Can they say no to that or 'You need to do more of this or more of that'?

That's what the purpose of the ESG will be—to give us that kind of intelligence and opinion. Because one of the things that—

But do you have to listen to that opinion? That's what I was—.

Yes. And I think that one thing that we've done well—and if I may, as an officer, compliment councillors in both authorities—what they've done well over the last 12-month period is engage with the private sector through these breakfast clubs and through presentation events. And the private sector have given their opinions and voices, and those opinions and voices have influenced quite a bit of the thinking that's gone on in preparing the route-map from which we're travelling at the moment. I'll give you an example: one of the things that was a clear message from private sector was, 'Make sure you don't suck up all of the growth deal money solely into infrastructure because if you do that—. Infrastructure must be a by-product of a successful growth deal.' That surprised me because that actually goes against what academics have told us as well. So, what we've done is, we've married the two together. We haven't dismissed it out of hand and said, 'Infrastructure's not important; forget it', but what we've recognised is that they come hand in glove. You need both to get it to succeed, and that was the instruction from the private sector to us.

What I was really asking is that that business group, the ESG group, are there mechanisms in place when there are projects and commitments coming forward where they can say, 'No, I'm sorry, local authorities, sorry, elected members, that's wrong; that's not the view of the business community, and you have to take note of that?' Is there a mechanism to allow this to happen?

Yes, there will be—yes.

We'd be foolish not to take notice of that. I think it's fair to say—. You asked how we connect with the business sector, even the small ones. When we had the business breakfast, we met between 600 and 700 businesses ranging from a one-man band like a graphic artist to an owner of a factory. So, we did connect with quite a lot of people, and we continue to do that. But I see, from the economic strategy group, them also probably forming sub-groups where they would bring in people who have knowledge of certain areas of work.

Sure. And just quickly, we're pressed for time, so just a quick answer, but if a business—it could be a small business—if they want to know where to go to find out what's happening with the mid Wales growth deal, is there one place they can go? Is there a website or information on your website that tells you exactly where you're up to?

If I may, Chair. I think that's where we're headed in terms of—as succinctly as possible—the programme office. But the key thing here is the proposition document—try to demystify some of the civil service, local government-type speak and make it meaningful for local businesses. And that really is a proposition document—that's what we're trying to achieve.

So, there isn't anything at the moment.

No. We'd refer to both websites.

On the council website, we have got reference to it on both. We've got a single communication strategy, and within a jointly agreed communication strategy, we are utilising our existing websites to signpost people to who they could contact to get more information if they require it.

And the key message here is not to pretend that the growth deal is something it's not, because it's not something for every individual and every small business to think, 'Oh, I can bid in and get a piece of that cake.' The vision and the aspiration has to be far greater than that. And it's not a funding source to support small businesses; there are different funding streams for that purpose.

Do you want to come in or are you just—? Okay. Bethan Sayed. Sorry, did you want to come in, Joyce? Sorry. Yes.

Well, I wanted to, because you used the word 'vision'. I couldn't agree more that there is an awful lot of innovation, opportunity and untapped resource in Mid and West Wales. I know how large it is—I cover it. But there is also a lot of existing innovation there, Machynlleth being probably a case in point with—[Inaudible.]—the Centre for Alternative Technology and the Eco partnerships. But there's also the Aberystwyth University Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences and others. So, you're fairly well placed in terms of innovation, new innovation, cutting-edge innovation. So, my question would be what conversations you're having with those, because they are all about direction of travel and trying to stay ahead of the game. And there's one area that I'm particularly keen to know about, and that is the landholdings that you will both have, I'm assuming, particularly farmland, and whether you have any policy in your landholdings, and when we talk about innovation, to meet innovation according to the climate change that you've declared and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015? Because it can't be everybody else. You have significant landholdings; you have significant farm holdings; and you could be doing an awful lot of encouraging an awful lot to be done, taking that future forward. So, I just want to know whether you've got that as part of your thinking going forward. 

Can I just ask if you can be brief? We're short of time. We've got a lot to get through yet. So, just be brief, if you can.

I can assure you that that's being looked at and what we feel as well is it's something that we think is—. As you say, we've got holdings, and it's going to play a vital part in any future growth deal.

So, you've got a policy, have you?

Yes. We talk about that frequently. Between us, we've got significant landholdings. We're talking about renewable energy, all sorts of alternative forms of energy. 

So, we could see that policy, then.

Just to give you a flavour, our involvement with Aberystwyth University and with the Centre for Alternative Technology is pretty entrenched in a lot of our thinking for the future and a lot of the innovation that we're talking about is linked through food and agriculture—it's our foundational economy. If we don't promote it, who else is going to? So, it's a key component part for us, and it's embedded in all of our conversations. But the universities and CAT are playing a big role in contributing to those conversations as well—and IBERS.

Okay. We'll have to move on. Bethan Sayed. 

Oscar Asghar.

Thank you very much, Chair. I'm very interested. I'm glad to see this development, anyway, but I think 15 years is too long. But the fact is, going through it, I think you own virtually, to develop, more than 50 per cent of the land of all Wales, and a couple of universities, six local authorities, and a couple of colleges.

My question to you is about the skills sector. There is a certain area that can be developed very strongly, like farming, agriculture, and rural, and all those different areas, but we cannot disturb our beautiful environment there. But that is the area. Tourism hasn't even been mentioned. So, the skills sector, how can you create quality jobs for the local area to cater for Wales?

The skills agenda is critical. So, that's why I've emphasised the importance of having the regional learning and skills partnership and the right to create that, because we do need to map out for our learners the opportunities of combining skill sets in a certain way. So, we refine the curriculum, that they can gain these kinds of qualifications, but it must lead to employment at the end of it. Now, the employment, tourism is one of the main themes that we've got. What we're trying to give you a flavour of is that we've got a number of different themes and a number of different areas, but the unique selling points that we pride ourselves on is the fact that mid Wales is an area of outstanding beauty; is the fact that mid Wales is the heartland of generating the agricultural industry of Wales. We've got those in abundance.

What we need to look for in the future are the additionalities as well as. So, the foundational economy that Nigel referenced, we have to make sure that that's at the heart of all of this. But also, we have to be equally as aspirational in relation to what new, creative, innovative new industries can be developed within our area as well.

Such as?

Such as, if I give you an example. You could go into research and development in spectral technology, as an example. The only place in Europe, to be honest, that you can trace radio waves in clean air is in mid Wales. You can't do it anywhere else in Europe; you can do it in other parts of the world. But what you have is, within the mid Wales region, you have, then, the combination of coastlines, of valleys, of undulating land, of hills, so that when you want to test innovative developments in this way, then it lends itself to that purpose. Now, the spin-off is that organisations and businesses that would be interested in developing and establishing businesses to generate new technologies for that purpose could set up anywhere in mid Wales, then, because they would have the research side of it supporting their new technologies. Now, that doesn't damage the environment in any way, shape or form; it just takes advantage of such a wonderful unique selling point. Across the whole of mid Wales, that's one thing that we can celebrate, in one respect, is that it is, and that's where the unique selling point is critical in making sure that we're aware of it. So, we have to protect as well as develop.

I think you mentioned tourism, Chairman. There are lots of things we can do with tourism—obviously it's very, very important to both our areas. We have some major events in the area, probably more international events like the Royal Welsh Show, the Green Man music festival, the Hay Festival: we can develop on that. But behind that, we would have to improve our accommodation, probably increase our accommodation, and the road network, of course, would come into that. Infrastructure comes in to everything.

That's right. You mention infrastructure, that's what my other question is about. The only link, at the moment, is mainly road, and if there is more traffic and more everything, there is more pollution, but that is for another time, that question. My final—

I think Nigel Brinn wanted to come in.

Sorry.

Just a quick point in terms of innovation—and it would be wrong to divulge some of the information that was shared with me yesterday—but there are some really incredible industries in mid Wales looking to expand, looking to develop high-end technology, well-paid posts, including the sort of things we'd look to encourage and put on the skills agenda. We need to make sure that the output from FE colleges works. I was talking about STEM subjects, et cetera, and the feedback we're getting from businesses is they are finding it difficult to recruit people. But there's some really, really interesting stuff in terms of some quite creative technology areas. So, it's just working—. It is there, quite a few small businesses, and I'm always surprised at what we do have on our patch when you get to meet some of our local industries.

Thank you very much. And finally, to what extent will the growth deal seek to achieve inclusive growth in line with the Welsh Government's economic action plan?

If I may start. They're both going to be aligned, and it'll almost be an identical document. The working relationship we have with Rhodri Griffiths and Ann Watkin is excellent. Those who know me, you know I wouldn't say that if it wasn't true. In fairness to those two civil servants, they're working extremely closely with us in mid Wales, and the dialogue that we're having with them is making sure that we're not planning for the sake of planning; we're planning for the sake of delivering something tangible that is in partnership with Welsh Government. And the fact that we're aligning the two documents, that they'll be more or less one and the same, with the same shared vision, it'll almost be a co-constructed vision between civil servants in Welsh Government and ourselves in mid Wales. And therefore, processes like this one, when those documents are ready to be scrutinised, it is really important that we have the opportunities to bring them and for you to see the direction in which we're going.

And also, the foundational economy is a large part of the mid Wales economy, so it's important that they're inclusive. As I said earlier, with the skills and all that, it's all a part of that plan. So, we're working side by side in that respect.

So, just briefly, Nigel.

Just a very, very quick response in terms of where we are with Welsh Government. The regional economic framework is really important for us going forward. It's going to be a new document. It's a slightly bewildering world, the world of economic development, but tying the whole thing together, not trying to replicate too many strategies, too many documents, but having one document that covers the lot of which a key component part of it is the growth deal. It's all got to be, basically, the complementarity amongst the team's interventions and programmes that we have. So, hopefully, we'll have a document that'll wrap up the desire of Welsh Government, that wraps up all these various initiatives and interventions.

Joyce Watson.

And finally from me: nobody has mentioned Brexit, so I will. You have said that you have large landholdings, large farm holdings, that if we fall off a cliff at the end of next year, to say the least, that will destabilise your economy, unless things are in place, like we've been promised, to actually secure what you've got, never mind moving forward. So, have you built that into your proposals? Because there has to be a risk analysis in all of this, and the biggest risk is the elephant in the room that hasn't been mentioned until now.

I think it's fair to say that both authorities have done a considerable amount of work on Brexit. I can only speak for Powys here, sorry, but we've got a multi-agency working group, there are officer groups, the local resource forum. There's all sorts of work going on in terms of Brexit, and the risks are being recognised. It's been difficult to know what and how much to prepare for, but there's a lot of work going on.

And that's true of Ceredigion as well.

Okay.

We did an analysis, a desktop analysis, of the impact of losing common agricultural policy funding, as an example, across mid Wales. So, if you're doing individual respective authorities, it would be the equivalent of losing £88 million out of Powys, and it would be the equivalent of losing £55 million just through losing CAP funding alone.

Eighty-eight million for Powys?

Yes, and £55 million for Ceredigion.

And £55 million for Ceredigion.

So, we've been working in the background, identifying the scale of risk for many, many years. That information has been at our fingertips for the last two and a half years, and we've had conversations with the farmers' unions. We've made sure that contingency plans are in place because that is a major, major factor that we have to take into consideration. The problem is, who knows what's going to happen with it?

Well, I think we've got a very good idea now what's going to happen. But anyway, I had to ask that question because all the other questions that were on this paper have been answered, and that wasn't on there. And we can't pretend for a minute that you're trying to drive an economic vision forward, which I commend you both for coming together to do that, and fully support it, without realising that in your area, more than any other area in Wales, that is your biggest potential threat if it's not delivered. So, £140 million between them both. Thank you.

Can I just ask a couple of questions? We're short for time, though, so they'll have to be brief answers. My very last question will be—I'll just give you a warning—what is it that you want the UK and the Welsh Government to do to release your ambitions? What are your key asks of them? But before I ask that question, I'm nearly certain that you'll go on to say 'confirmation of funding'. But if we had the Minister here, or we could ask the UK Government Minister whether they can provide more funding, they would say, 'Well, we're waiting to have more information from you.' And you've referred to the proposition document by March 2020. Have I got this right, is it a chicken-and-egg situation? And I look at Eifion, who mentioned earlier that you wanted funding from Welsh Government for a programme team. Do you think that that funding could come before your proposition document is established?

Yes.

So, that answers that question. So, before I asked my final question, if you're going to say funding from either Government, am I right with this chicken-and-egg situation? Because we're going to ask those Governments, and they're going to say, 'We haven't had the information yet, but you're asking for funding.' Am I right in that or—?

I think the first thing is that we have confirmation of that fourth region. I think that's important we're getting that fourth region funding and making mid Wales as that fourth region. I think that's essential as a starting point from Welsh Government, from the Minister himself.

Right, okay. 

That would be my—.

Okay. So, if I come to my last question: what is it that you would want from the Welsh or UK Government to release your ambitions? Succinctly, in bullet-point form, so we're clear as a committee when you've gone that this is what you need to release the ambitions that you've talked about today.

Immediately, we would like to know that we'd got enough money to fund our programme office. We would like to know that we have confirmation that we can form our regional learning and skills partnership. And we would like to know from both Governments that the money will be there to support our plans going forward, the significant amount of money.

Okay. But on the last point, they will say that they haven't yet had your proposition document, so they can't confirm that. That's what they would say. So, how would you respond to that?

Well, yes, it is chicken and egg, but, hopefully, the two can go forward together. We're nearly at March anyway. 

I can assure you the proposition document's going to be an exciting one, and it's something that you should look forward to, because as members, looking at it from a member's point of view as well, from what we've been talking about and the workshops that we've had here, they're all very excited, because we need something—we need something in mid Wales here to make sure that we prosper in the future.

Is there anything else in terms of asks of the UK?

The absolutely critical point is we've been eagerly anticipating an announcement by the Minister that mid Wales is formally recognised as the fourth economic region of Wales, and that that then is reflected in the new—there will need to be a revision of national policy to reflect that. Because if those national policies are aligned with a recognition of a mid Wales fourth region, then the other elements around funding will flow from it. It's not having that firm commitment to say, 'Yes, you are a designated economic region in Wales.' Westminster seems to acknowledge it, but we haven't had that commitment yet from Welsh Government.

[Inaudible.]—resources to set up a programme office that's commensurate with the programme of interventions. We're talking about significant sums of public funds. I touched on this earlier: you'd expect us to have a robust and appropriate team behind that, and that's key. That's absolutely critical. I take the chicken-and-egg issue, but it's really important now that we get the ability to invest and develop the business cases.

Go on, then—a final, final question from Joyce Watson.

I have to ask a final question of Eifion. You said that Westminster acknowledges that you're an economic area, and that the Assembly doesn't. I'd like you to clarify how you think that Westminster have identified you as an economic area.

Okay. A Treasury announcement in 2017—reference was made in the budget-setting process then that moneys would be flowing through Westminster to support a mid Wales growth deal in principle. So, that announcement happened then. And then, prior to the last election, we had a commitment from—

This £55 million of election bribe.

As a down payment—

No, an election bribe, thank you.

—of that. So, having those two commitments and those publicly announced commitments—

But you haven't seen any money.

We haven't seen any money, but what I am looking for is formal recognition that mid Wales, in Welsh Government eyes, is a designated fourth region.

Okay. Thank you for your time this morning, and please also pass our best wishes on to Councillor ap Gwynn. But thank you for being here today. We really appreciate your time and the evidence paper in advance of the session as well. So, diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much.

We'll take a short break—back in 10 minutes.

Welcome back to the committee. I move to item 4 with regard to our update on city deals. Before us this morning, we've got two witnesses with regard to the north Wales growth deal. So, perhaps I could ask you to introduce yourselves for the public record. 

That's it. That's fine. My first question was, 'Since you were last in committee—', but it wouldn't have been—. If you were in any committee in the past, it wouldn't have been for this issue.

No, it would have been—

You were in committee in the past, but it would have been on a different matter. 

Yes, it would have been.

That's fine. Can I ask first of all what progress has been made over the last 12 months? Because either yourselves or colleagues were here 12 months ago. So, what progress has been made since your colleagues or yourselves were in committee 12 months ago?

No, that's fine, and just briefly, because we'll go into some more detailed questions later on. Alwen.

The programme office was established a week ago in Llandudno Junction in the Conwy Business Centre. Four key appointments, plus myself, into the programme office at the moment: a programme manager for digital; a programme manager for land and property; a programme manager for energy; and also a deputy director and operational manager for the programme office.

So, the programme office has only just been established. 

Yes. 

I'm just trying to understand in my own mind, would that not have been—. You've just agreed on signing the heads of terms. Would that have not been—could it have been earlier? I'm not saying one's right or wrong; I'm just trying to understand how the office works. I ask the question because the mid Wales growth deal, who were just in, were talking about doing the very same. They want to do that now, but they're much further behind than you are. 

The recruitment process took place, I would say—or started, certainly—in summer, but the process of actually recruiting and giving notice and starting has taken three to four months. 

Right. Okay. 

It wasn't a criticism, I was just trying to understand, because our last witnesses had talked about doing what you're doing at a much earlier stage in the process. But while we talk about that heads of terms being signed off—and you were pleased that that was signed off before the election, which was helpful to avoid further delay—it still could have been signed earlier. What could have been done to avoid that delay in getting that heads of terms signed off? 

So, you've made it clear that both the Welsh and UK Governments perhaps weren't as quick at signing off those heads of terms before—. It could have been much quicker. Do you have any analysis of why it did take that long, for both those Governments, not from your perspective, to sign off? 

That's fine. We might be able to ask that. That's why we ask the question. Can you tell us any areas over the last 12 months that have been perhaps slower than you would have liked to have seen? Taking out the heads of terms being signed off, of course. Are there any other areas in your work that haven't been progressed as much as you would have liked?

That's fine. Perhaps you could just tell us briefly about your latest discussions with both Governments. 

When was the last meeting?

Okay, and what was the outcome or the gist of that meeting?

Yes, some of the discussions I've had in the last week have included a good conversation with Gwenllian and some of Gwenllian's team as a region for north Wales on the approach that we'll take to joint working in the way we deliver the ambition board's outcomes, and I think a constructive conversation with Welsh Government in terms of that framework agreement for working together. From my perspective, discussion hasn't started with UK Government yet, but it's certainly something that I'm looking forward to moving on to over the next few weeks, to get the same sort of co-working agreement in place.

Okay.

Okay, lovely. Vikki Howells.

Thank you, Chair. I just want to dig down a little into the proposed funding model for the growth deal. First of all, could you clarify for us the level of funding that you are seeking to secure from both the UK and Welsh Governments, and whether that has changed at all in the past year?  

Thank you. Building on that, the draft implementation plan makes the case for an additional sum of £20 million from each Government to support the funding of packages to address the challenges faced by the region, particularly as a result of the proposed £20 billion Wylfa Newydd station being suspended indefinitely. What's the latest position in relation to that additional funding request?

Okay. 

When were those requests sent? When were those requests for the additional funding sent? 

Okay, thank you. The draft implementation plan also states that the skills and employment programme is subject to the agreement of a side deal with the Welsh Government. What is the latest position in relation to that? And what exactly does it involve? 

Okay, thank you. Could you clarify for us the amount of private sector investment that the growth deal will be seeking to lever in as a direct consequence of the projects being delivered? 

Okay, thank you. And one final question from me, in your written evidence, you state there's a 'cash flow issue to be managed' in funding the growth deal projects, and local authorities may need to manage that through borrowing. Could you just expand on that for us?

Diolch.

Oscar Asghar.

Thank you very much, and good morning to you both. My question is: can you clarify the current aims of the north Wales growth deal and set out how these have changed over the past year?

One of the things I think we recognise with the implementation of the programme office and the executive working group is that we probably need to revalidate and refresh the vision for the North Wales Economic Ambition Board, taking into account that the vision was originally created probably four years ago now. So, there's a process of revalidation and refresh that will happen to ensure that we are challenging ourselves to being ambitious enough and not just 'business as usual'. I think one of the things we all agree is that it needs to be truly transformational for north Wales.

Thank you very much. I just heard from Dyfrig regarding this investment in Holyhead—the biggest chunk you're spending of money is there. So, basically, what my point is, which is just asking you beyond the question: your investment must be getting some return—it's not that the money is spent and gone—so what are the prospects of earning money from your investment and re-pooling back into your project? Is there any project you're doing like this?

Okay, thank you. Are you confident that the north Wales growth deal will achieve its aim, and what are the greatest external risks and challenges to the successful delivery of the growth deal?

And can I just ask: have you, or have you not had to realign your aims of what you want to achieve as a result of having been allocated less funding than you wanted from the Welsh and UK Governments?

I was just trying to be clear, because in response to Oscar Asghar's first question on whether you've had to change your aims, or whether your aims have changed in the last 12 months, you said 'no', but then you said there is a change as a result of having a lesser allocation from both Governments. But it sounds like what you're saying, though, is that perhaps your aims can remain the same because you can lever in some funding from elsewhere. Have I got that right?

Yes, there's an element of prioritisation involved now, because as we know the things we can support with the funding we have, we can prioritise the key elements that sit well across the whole region and push those programmes forward.

So, some of your projects have had to drop off because of—no, that isn't the case.

They haven't dropped off. They will remain in the plan, but with less of a priority to deliver.

Okay, I understand. Hefin David.

In the written evidence, there was a comment about the lack of alignment between Westminster and Welsh Government, but in the evidence you've given you've talked about the problems with the delayed development of the heads of terms, but there doesn't seem to be much more you've said about that problem between the relationships between the two Governments. So, I was wondering if you could elaborate on some of those issues.

What about the Welsh Government's economic action plan and the ambitions within that, and how they might correspond with the UK Government's city deal/regional growth approach? They're quite different in what they're trying to achieve, aren't they? Different in their philosophical underpinnings, at least.

I take your point, but one of the things that has come through from the mid Wales discussion we had as well is the heavy reliance on private sector funding that seems, to an extent, to be taking the place, and being almost optimistically hopeful that that will fulfil the place, of public sector funding, which is less forthcoming. It's easy for any Government then to say, 'Well, private sector funding is going to solve the problem.'

So, let's move on from that a bit and look at the Welsh Government's regional strategies, and the three regional frameworks that the Welsh Government are developing. Do you think that that is actually—? Does that bump up against the growth deals, or do you think that it complements them?

The way that I think that we've started the discussion, certainly regionally in north Wales with Gwenllian and her team on this, is that we have a responsibility collectively and collaboratively to north Wales to create a framework that doesn't work against each other. I think that is the piece of work that I'm moving forward with now to create what are almost like the guiding principles of how we work together to ensure that we don't create something that does clash. And I think that the basic guiding principles of how we work together to ensure the best outcomes for the citizens of north Wales, which is what we're trying to achieve here, is achieved in a way that is seen as highly collaborative and highly complementary, rather than—

Is it your body that is making it collaborate and making it work, but it's not the Governments that are necessarily supporting that?

But not the same regions.

Okay. The last question, then, is: how do you think that you are going to be improving skills and the quality of jobs for those in greatest need through your activities?

Okay.

Bethan Sayed. 

Joyce Watson. 

And, finally from me, what can we expect to see from you in the next 12 months, in terms of your achievements, but also what you would consider significant milestones that you intend to meet in the short term—that's six to 12 months—so that you can get this final growth deal? 

Yes. So, I think the first challenge is around creating the five-case business models for the projects that we've got entering. So, we need to move into a position where we have a really clear and consistent approach outlining in our five-case business models what our projects are. And also I think there's something around moving from a project-based approach into a programmatic approach, because we exist as a programme office.

Certainly, one of my milestones in the next 12 months is to become, with the programme team, the centre of excellence for the economic ambition for north Wales, working closely and collaboratively with the partners within the public sector, but also with the private sector, and that we create the culture within the programme team that allows that to happen. It starts from even some of the very basic communication tools that we need to develop to tell the narrative for north Wales and how we share that. So, the creation of a really good holistic website, for example, which is informative, easy to use and gives the citizens of north Wales the information they need to form their judgment, their questions and, hopefully, their support for the growth deal and the broader economic ambitions for north Wales and what that means for them. 

Also, I think to focus on not being a function for transmitting and to focus on being a function or a team that allows two-way dialogue with the people that (a) want to invest in the region, and the people that work and live in the region. 

So, when do you think you're going to be in a position—? All that's very good, but when are you going to be in a position to reach the final agreement with the UK and the Welsh Government?  

Can I just ask—as we come to conclude today's meeting—what are your asks of the Welsh and UK Governments in terms of realising your ambitions? You laugh, so I'm looking for a good answer here.

Simply, cash would be fine.

Everyone says that.

Okay. That's helpful to know. I did say last question, but the very last question—it will have to be very quick and succinct—Oscar Asghar.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair. Thank you very much for giving those answers. Have you got any system in place for checks and balances? Because there are six local authorities involved in north Wales, say if a private investor comes in and wants to get a better deal in one authority, and another authority is offering another thing. So, is there a system where you can see the best possible deal for the best person? Is the openness, transparency and accountability there?

Okay. Thank you for the last question. And can I thank both of you for your time and your written paper in advance? Diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much. We will send you a copy of the transcript of the proceedings today, and if you think of anything else you think we should be aware of or you want to correct any information in your evidence, then please also let us know. But thank you for your time with committee today. Diolch yn fawr. 

And that brings our public part of the meeting to an end today.