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Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu

Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee

08/01/2020

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Bethan Sayed AM
Carwyn Jones AM
David Melding AM
Delyth Jewell AM
Eluned Morgan AM
John Griffiths AM
Mick Antoniw AM
Yr Arglwydd / Lord Elis-Thomas AM

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Bethan Webb Llywodraeth Cymru
Welsh Government
Huw Davies Llywodraeth Cymru
Welsh Government
Jason Thomas Llywodraeth Cymru
Welsh Government

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Angharad Roche Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Martha Da Gama Howells Clerc
Clerk
Robin Wilkinson Ymchwilydd
Researcher

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:31.

The meeting began at 09:31.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Diolch a chroeso i'r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu. Blwyddyn newydd dda i chi oll. Gobeithio'ch bod chi wedi dod yn ôl i'r Senedd yn llawn egni a hwyl. Ymddiheuriadau a dirprwyon: dŷn ni ddim wedi cael unrhyw ymddiheuriadau'r bore yma, dwi'n falch iawn o glywed. Oes gan unrhyw Aelod rhywbeth i ddatgan yma heddiw? Na, dim byd. Ocê.

Thank you and welcome to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee. Happy new year to you all. I hope that you have returned to the Senedd full of energy. Apologies and substitutions: we haven't received any apologies this morning—I'm very pleased to hear that. Do any Members have any declarations of interest to make today? No, nothing. Okay.

2. Craffu ar Gyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer 2020-21 – y Dirprwy Weinidog Diwylliant, Chwaraeon a Thwristiaeth
2. Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2020-21 - Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism

Eitem 2, symudwn i: craffu ar gyllideb ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer 2020-21—y Ddirprwy Weinidog Diwylliant, Chwaraeon a Thwristiaeth. Dŷn ni'n croesawu Dafydd Elis-Thomas, Aelod Cynulliad a'r Dirprwy Weinidog Diwylliant, Chwaraeon a Thwristiaeth; dŷn ni'n croesawu Jason Thomas, cyfarwyddwr diwylliant, chwaraeon a thwristiaeth; a hefyd Huw Davies, sef pennaeth diwylliant, chwaraeon a thwristiaeth. Diolch i chi am ddod atom heddiw. Dŷn ni'n gwybod bod y gyllideb wedi cael ei symud ymlaen rhywfaint yn sgil yr etholiad cyffredinol, felly dŷn ni yn falch eich bod chi wedi gallu dod i mewn atom i roi tystiolaeth ger ein bron yr adeg yma o'r flwyddyn.

Fel dŷch chi'n gwybod yn siŵr erbyn hyn—dŷch chi wedi bod i'r pwyllgor droeon nawr—dŷn ni'n mynd i ofyn cwestiynau ar sail themâu gwahanol o fewn y gyllideb ddrafft a bydd Delyth Jewell yn cychwyn y trafodaethau. Diolch.

So, moving on to item 2: scrutiny of the Welsh Government draft budget 2020-21—Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism. We welcome Dafydd Elis-Thomas AM, Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism; we are also welcoming Jason Thomas, director of culture, sport and tourism; and also Huw Davies, who's head of culture, sport and tourism. Thank you very much for joining us today. We know that the budget has been brought forward a little as a result of the general election, so we're very pleased that you've been able to join us to give evidence to us at this time of year.

As you know, I'm sure, by now—you've been to the committee plenty of times before—we're going to ask themed questions within the draft budget and Delyth Jewell will start. Thank you very much.

Bore da a blwddyn newydd dda. Byddwn i'n gofyn cwestiynau am Ddeddf Llesiant Cenedlaethau'r Dyfodol (Cymru) 2015. Ddirprwy Weinidog, ers i chi ddod yn aelod o'r Llywodraeth, pa effaith dŷch chi'n meddwl y mae'r Ddeddf yna wedi cael ar y ffordd mae cyllideb eich adran yn cael ei gydlynu?

Good morning and a happy new year. I'm going to be asking questions about the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. Deputy Minister, since you became a member of the Government, what impact do you think that legislation has had on the way in which your department's budget is co-ordinated?

Wel, roeddwn i'n weddol gyfarwydd â'r Ddeddf, wrth gwrs, oherwydd roeddwn i'n Aelod Cynulliad ac yn Llywydd am ran o'r cyfnod pan oedd y Ddeddf yn cael ei pharatoi a'i chyflwyno ac y mae hi'n gonglfaen pwysig iawn i gyfansoddiad Cymru, ac felly i weithgaredd y Llywodraeth, ond hefyd i holl weithgaredd y cyrff cyhoeddus sydd yn atebol i mi fel Gweinidog yn y maes yma ac i Weinidogion eraill. Ac mae'n dda gen i ddweud fy mod i wedi cael bodlonrwydd arbennig gan barodrwydd y cyrff yr ydw i'n gyfrifol amdanyn nhw, y prif gyrff mawr megis yr amgueddfa a'r orielau, wrth gwrs, a'r llyfrgell genedlaethol, a hefyd, wrth gwrs, y cyrff sydd yn dod yn gysylltiol â chyngor y celfyddydau ei hun a'r cyrff y mae cyngor y celfyddydau'n noddi—y modd y mae'r cyrff cyhoeddus yma wedi bod yn gweithredu'r Ddeddf.

Dŷn ni wedi bod—yn sicr ers pan rydw i wedi bod yn Weinidog—yn cyfeirio at y Ddeddf yn gyson pan rydym ni'n llunio papurau, yn paratoi datganiadau neu'n cymryd rhan mewn unrhyw weithgaredd cyhoeddus i esbonio beth dŷn ni'n ei wneud, oherwydd fy mod i o'r farn nad pethau i'w ysgrifennu yn y lle hwn—ac, i ryw raddau, mi oedd pobl yn beirniadu'r Ddeddf arbennig yma am ei bod hi yn Ddeddf oedd yn deisyfu pethau yn hytrach nag yn gweithredu pethau, ond dwi ddim yn credu bod hynny'n wir. Mae'r ffordd y mae'r Ddeddf wedi cael ei defnyddio gan gyrff cyhoeddus, a gan gwmnïau sydd yn contractio i gyrff cyhoeddus. yn dangos bod yr egwyddorion yn y Ddeddf yn egwyddorion sydd yn weithredol o ddydd i ddydd ar draws Cymru. Ac, yn naturiol, mae'r Ddeddf yma'n effeithio ar bob agwedd o'r portffolio sydd yn gyfrifoldeb i mi. 

Well, I was relatively familiar with the Act, of course, because I was an Assembly Member and was a Llywydd at the time when the legislation was being prepared and put forward, and it is at the heart of the constitution in Wales. It's a cornerstone of the constitution and to the work of the Government, but also of the public bodies that are accountable to me as the Deputy Minister in this field and to other Ministers, of course. It's good to say that I'm very satisfied by the willingness of the bodies that I'm responsible for, the major bodies such as the museum and galleries, of course, and the national library, and, of course, the bodies that are connected to the arts council itself, of course, and the bodies sponsored by the arts council and the way that those public bodies have been implementing the Act has been very satisfactory.

Since I've been a Minister, we have been referring to the Act consistently when we put together papers or statements or take part in any public activities to explain what we do, because I'm of the opinion that these aren't things to be written for this place—and, to an extent, people were critical of this Act because it was an Act that was aspirational in nature, but I don't believe that that's true. It's about the way that the Act has been used by public bodies, and by the companies that are contracted by public bodies, and that shows that the principles of the Act are principles that are active on a daily basis across Wales. And, naturally, this legislation impacts on all aspects of the portfolio that is my responsibility. 

09:35

Wel, llynedd—roedd yn hyn yn amlwg cyn fy amser i ar y pwyllgor, ond dwi'n deall roeddech chi wedi dweud y llynedd bod y Ddeddf, mewn rhai ffyrdd, ddim yn gweithio yn y ffordd y gallai hi weithio. Ydych chi'n meddwl bod hynny wedi cael unrhyw effaith yn eich hadran chi?

Well, last year, before my time on this committee, I do understand that you'd said that the Act, in some ways, wasn't working as it should, perhaps. Now, do you think that that's had any impact within your department?

Wel, mae'r Ddeddf wedi cael cyfle i weithredu, a dwi wedi cael cyfle i wylio a goruchwylio gweithrediad y Ddeddf yn fwy manwl ers hynny. Ac, felly, gaf i anghytuno efo beth bynnag ddywedais i y llynedd?

Well, the Act has had an opportunity to bed in, and I've had an opportunity to supervise the implementation of the Act in more detail since then. So, may I disagree with whatever I said last year?

[Chwerthin.] Ie, mae perffaith hawl gyda chi i wneud hynny. Felly, o ystyried beth rŷch chi wedi'i ddweud, rwy'n cymryd, felly, eich bod chi'n meddwl dyw e ddim bod y Ddeddf, yn amlwg, wedi newid, ond mae'r ffordd efallai, gydag amser, mae e wedi cael ei—beth bynnag ydy'r gair—ymdrothwyo mwy yn y ffordd mae llywodraethu yn digwydd yn y wlad yma, mae'n dod yn rhywbeth fwy naturiol.

[Laughter.] Yes, you have every right to do that, of course. So, given what you've said, I assume, therefore, that you do feel that the Act hasn't changed, but the way in which, over time, it's—what's the word—the way it's been incorporated into the way that governance happens, it's become more a natural part of that. 

Ydy, ac efallai y byddai'n werth i mi gyfeirio at rai enghreifftiau ymarferol iawn. Er enghraifft, gwasanaethau darllen y llyfrgell genedlaethol, sydd yn cefnogi pobl sydd ag anawsterau gweld er mwyn gallu cael mynediad i'r casgliad. Mae Cadw, fel y prif gorff cadwraeth sydd gyda ni, wedi bod yn hyfforddi, yn ofalus iawn, y staff mewn ymwybyddiaeth dementia, fel ein bod ni'n gallu croesawu pawb sydd yn dymuno mwynhau beth sydd gyda ni i'w gynnig i gyhoedd Cymru, beth bynnag ydy eu gofynion nhw, neu beth bynnag ydy unrhyw anableddau, neu unrhyw ffyrdd o weithredu sydd ganddyn nhw a allai fod yn peri anhawster i unrhyw fath o fwyniant felly. 

Ac, mae'n ddiddorol iawn i mi bod yr astudiaeth mae Cadw wedi cymryd rhan ynddo fo yn dangos bod mwy na hanner y bobl a holwyd yn teimlo eu bod nhw wedi cael gwelliant yn ansawdd eu bywyd, ac yn teimlo yn llai ynysig ac unig oherwydd eu bod nhw wedi gallu cymryd rhan mewn gweithgareddau a mwynhau henebion a mwynhau gwylio celfyddyd hefyd, wrth gwrs, sydd yn faes pwysig iawn ar gyfer pobl i fod yn ymdeimlo â gwerth eu bywyd. Ac, wrth gwrs, heb sôn am chwaraeon. Yn amlwg, rwy'n teimlo'n frwd iawn ynglŷn â hyn, oherwydd dwi ddim wedi bod yn rhedeg bore 'ma, ond mi fues i'n rhedeg bore ddoe. Mae cymryd rhan mewn gweithgaredd gorfforol yn rhan ganolog o'm mywyd i, fel y mae o i fywyd canran weddol, erbyn hyn, o boblogaeth Cymru, ac mae'n bwysig ein bod ni'n annog cyfranogi mewn chwaraeon, pa un ai drwy gymryd rhan ynddo fo, neu wrth gwrs, drwy ei wylio fo'n frwdfrydig. A dwi'n gwybod bod llawer ohonoch chi fan hyn yn yr un categori. 

Yes, and perhaps it would be worth me referring to some very practical examples. For example, the reading services of the national library that support people who have difficulties in reading and visual impairments to access the collection. Cadw, as the major conservation body that we have, has been training, very carefully, the staff in dementia awareness, so that we can welcome everyone who wishes to enjoy what we have to offer to the public in Wales, whatever their requirements are, whatever any disabilities they might have are, or any ways of engaging with the collection that could cause any difficulties in terms of that engagement. 

And it's very interesting for me that the study that Cadw has participated in demonstrates that more than half of the people asked feel that they have seen an improvement in the quality of their lives, and feel less isolated and alone because they have been able to participate in activities and enjoy the monuments of Wales, and enjoy engaging in the arts, which is very important as well, so that people feel that their lives have value. Without mentioning sport, of course. Clearly, I feel very enthusiastic about this; I wasn't running this morning, but I did run yesterday. Physical activity is a very important part of my life, as it is for a large proportion of the people of Wales, and it's important that we encourage participation in sport, either by taking part in sport, or by watching it and supporting. And I know many of you here are in that same category. 

Rydych chi'n sôn am yr angen i wneud yn siŵr bod mwy o bobl yn gallu mwynhau a chymryd rhan yn y byd celfyddydol. Ydych chi'n bwriadu cynyddu'r cyllid ar gyfer Cyfuno—Fusion?

You mentioned the need to ensure that more people are able to enjoy and participate in the arts. Do you intend to increase the funding for the Fusion programme?

Wel, ydyn, oherwydd beth dŷn ni wedi bod yn ei wneud ydy datblygu'r cynllun yma a'i symud o ymlaen ar draws y cyfan rydyn ni yn ei wneud. Ac, yn y gwaith yma, wrth gwrs, mae yna gyfraniadau wedi cael eu gwneud gan gyngor y celfyddydau i adroddiad gymharol ddiweddar ar fapio'r celfyddydau mewn perthynas â iechyd—tirwedd iechyd a'r celfyddydau yng Nghymru ydy'r hyn y maen nhw wedi bod yn ei astudio. Ac mae'r gweithgaredd yna yn rhan o gyllideb weithgaredd benodol ynglŷn â Cyfuno—yn rhan o gyllideb MALD, fel rydyn ni'n galw'r gyllideb sydd yn effeithio ar yr holl feysydd rydw i'n gyfrifol amdanyn nhw. Ac o fewn y gyllideb yna o £1.7 miliwn, y mae yna flaenoriaeth i'r cynllun Cyfuno, ac mi fyddwn ni'n cyflwyno cynlluniau pellach fel rhan o'r adolygiad gwariant Cyfuno. Felly, mae o'n un o'n blaenoriaethau ni. 

Well, yes, because what we have been doing is developing this scheme and moving it forward across everything that we do. And, in this work, of course, contributions have been made by the arts council, and a relatively recent report on mapping the arts in relation to the health landscape in Wales. So, that's what they've been studying in that mapping exercise. And that activity is part of the specific budget for Fusion—the MALD budget, as we call the budget that impacts on all of the areas that I'm responsible for. And in that budget of £1.7 million, there is priority given to the Fusion scheme, and we will be putting forward further schemes as part of the Fusion expenditure review. So, it is one of our priorities. 

Jason, do you want to maybe be more specific?

09:40

Diolch, Weinidog. Just on Fusion, I guess, we are shortly putting some advice up to the Minister on where we go next with Fusion. We've been reviewing it over the last 12 months, so there's a detailed report that's going up to the Minister. I think the early indications are that it's been really successful, but we don't want to pre-empt what that report says, but we will be coming out with a statement at the right time, once the Minister's been able to review that.

Bydd y pwyllgor yn sicr yn cael gweld yr adroddiad pan fyddwn ni wedi ei gael.

This committee will certainly have sight of that report when we've received it.

Diolch. Ac yn olaf ar hynna, oes yna unrhyw beth, yn ymwneud eto gyda Deddf Llesiant Cenedlaethau’r Dyfodol (Cymru) 2015, dros y flwyddyn nesaf y byddech chi a'ch adran eisiau ei wneud yn wahanol o ran gwneud yn siŵr bod eich gwaith yn cyd-fynd â'r ddeddfwriaeth yna?

Thank you. And finally on that, again in relation to the Well-being of Future Generations Act (Wales) 2015, is there anything over the next year that you and your department would wish to do differently in terms of ensuring that your work does align with that legislation?

Na, mae'r blaenoriaethau wedi'u gosod allan yn glir. Rydym ni wedi cyhoeddi dogfennau, a byddwch chi'n gyfarwydd â nhw—rydych chi wedi gweld copïau ohonyn nhw; mae yna gyfeiriad atyn nhw yn y dystiolaeth. Yn y tri neu bedwar maes rydw i'n gyfrifol amdanyn nhw, y mae'r blaenoriaethau yna'n cynnwys cynyddu cyfranogaeth. Dyna un o'r prif bethau rydym ni'n ceisio ei wneud ac mae cyfranogaeth yn golygu cyfranogaeth ymarferol weithredol trwy gymryd rhan mewn digwyddiadau yn ogystal â'u gwylio nhw.

No, the priorities have been set out very clearly. We've published documents and you'll be familiar with them—you'll have seen copies of them; there is reference made to them in the evidence that we've put forward. In the three or four areas that I'm responsible for, those priorities include increasing participation. That's one of the main things that we're trying to do and participation means practical participation by taking part in activities as well as watching them.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Dwi jest eisiau gofyn cwestiwn nawr ynglŷn â'r oriel gelf gyfoes. Pan oeddwn i'n eistedd ar y pwyllgor sgrwtini ar waith y Prif Weinidog, fel Cadeirydd y pwyllgor yma, fe wnes i ofyn i Mark Drakeford, cyn y Nadolig, ynglŷn â'r cynlluniau hynny, ac roedd ef wedi dweud wrthyf i fod yna asesiad clir o'r opsiynau wedi cael ei wneud, ond doedd e ddim eisiau rhoi'r manylion yn y pwyllgor hynny. Dwi ddim yn gweld, yn y gyllideb, lle mae'r arian ar gyfer creu unrhyw fath o sefydliad newydd yn hynny o beth, a hefyd o ran yr amgueddfa chwaraeon. Felly, a fedrwch chi roi rhyw fath o syniad inni, gan fod yna gryn ddiddordeb yn y maes yma, lle rydych chi'n bwriadu cymryd y cynlluniau—y ddau gynllun yma yn benodol—er mwyn inni ddeall ac inni geisio sgrwtineiddio i lawr y lein hefyd?

Thank you very much. I just wanted to ask a question now about the modern art gallery. When I sat on the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister, as Chair of this committee, I asked Mark Drakeford about those plans, and he told me that a clear assessment of the options had been undertaken. But he didn't want to give the details in that committee meeting. I don't see, in the budget, where the funding for creating any kind of new institution is, and also in terms of the sports museum. So, could you give us some kind of idea, because there is a great deal of interest in this area, where you intend to take these two schemes forward, so that we can understand and try to scrutinise down the line as well?

Wel, rydw i wedi cyfarwyddo yr amgueddfa a'r orielau a'r cyngor celfyddydau, ac mae yna weithgor sydd wedi bod yn cyfarfod yn gyson ac yn gweithio i ddatblygu, gan ystyried lleoliadau. Ac rydw i'n disgwyl yn fuan iawn am adroddiad gan y gweithgor yma. Felly, mae'r cynlluniau—. Rydw i wedi gwario peth o gyllid yn barod. Rydw i'n meddwl ein bod ni wedi gwario rhyw £0.5 miliwn yn barod ar gyfer mynd ymlaen â'r project oriel gelf gyfoes. Felly, does yna ddim oedi wedi bod yn fanna.

Ynglŷn â'r amgueddfa chwaraeon yn Wrecsam—mae'r un peth yn wir am y project yma hefyd. Mi fyddwn ni yn gofyn am gyllid ychwanegol yn y gyllideb atodol yn ystod y flwyddyn ariannol yma er mwyn mynd ymlaen â'r cynlluniau yma. Fel roeddwn yn ei ddweud, rydw i wedi cytuno cyfanswm o £2.575 miliwn dros dair blynedd ariannol er mwyn mynd â'r gwaith ymlaen ar ddatblygu cynlluniau busnes ar gyfer y ddau broject yma roeddwn i'n cyfeirio atyn nhw.

Ac yn ogystal â hynny, rydym ni wedi bod yn cefnogi gwariant cyfalaf gan yr amgueddfa yng Nghaerdydd ac yn Oriel Gregynog yn Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru yn Aberystwyth, er mwyn sicrhau bod y gwaith angenrheidiol yn cael ei wneud ar gyfer darparu cartref i'r ddau ddatblygiad yma. Ac rydw i'n credu eich bod wedi cael y manylion yma, ond mae'r manylion ar gyfer Wrecsam o ran datblygu'r project, fel y dywedais i, o gwmpas £0.5 miliwn. Ac yna mae'r cyfanswm rhwng yr oriel gelf gyfoes yn cynnwys £129,000 o gyngor y celfyddydau ar gyfer datblygu'r project, £726,000 i Amgueddfa Cymru yn benodol ar gyfer digideiddio'r casgliad celf gyfoes. Mae'r gwaith yna yn cael ei wneud, os nad ydy o wedi cael ei gwblhau'n barod. Ac yna mae gan Amgueddfa Cymru—mae yna wariant penodol iddyn nhw hefyd ynglŷn â gwella amgylchiadau storio a gofalu am y casgliad celf gyfoes. Ac yna hefyd mae'r cyngor celfyddydau wedi cael £125,000 ar gyfer brandio a marchnata. Ac yn ogystal â hynny, rydw i wedi cyfeirio, dwi'n meddwl, at y gwaith cyfalaf yng Nghaerdydd, yn arbennig ynglŷn ag adeilad yr amgueddfa a'r gwaith yng Ngregynog, ac mae hynny i gyd wedi'i gymeradwyo ac yn digwydd.

Well, I have directed the museum and galleries and the arts council, and there's a working group that's been working consistently considering possible venues and locations. And I am expecting a report from that working group. So, those plans—. I have spent some of the budget. I think we've spent around £0.5 million already, in taking forward the contemporary arts gallery project. So, there has been no delay there.

In terms of the sports museum for Wales in Wrexham—the same is true of that project too. We will be seeking additional funding in the supplementary budget during this financial year in order to take these proposals forward. As I've said, I have agreed a total of £2.575 million over three financial years in order to take this work forward in terms of developing business plans for both of these projects that I referred to.

And in addition to that, we have been supporting capital expenditure by the museum in Cardiff and at the Gregynog Gallery in the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth, in order to ensure that the necessary work is done in order to provide a home for these two developments. And I think you have received the details, but the details for Wrexham in terms of the development of that project, as I said, is around £0.5 million. And then the total between the contemporary art gallery includes £129,000 from the arts council, £726,000 for the digitisation of the contemporary art collection. That work is being done, if it hasn't been completed already. And then there is specific expenditure for Amgueddfa Cymru, in terms of making improvements to the storage facilities and preserving the contemporary art collection. And the arts council have received £125,000 for branding and marketing. And in addition to that, I have referred to the capital works in Cardiff, particularly in relation to the building of the museum and the work in Gregynog, and that has all been approved and is happening.

09:45

Diolch. Bydd rhywun yn siarad am y meysydd mwy eang. Roeddwn i jest eisiau deall, pan oeddech chi'n dweud 'yn fuan bydd yna adroddiad gan y grŵp gorchwyl', pryd mae 'yn fuan'? Oes yna fwy o amserlen?

Thank you. Somebody will be exploring those wider issues later on. I just wanted to understand, when you said 'very soon, there would be a report by the working group', when will that be? Is there a timetable?

Ar ôl iddyn nhw orffen yr adroddiad. Rydw i'n dal i ddisgwyl amdano fo. Wn i ddim a oes yna ddyddiad eto.

When the report is completed. I'm still awaiting it. I don't know if we have a date.

Dwi ddim yn gwybod beth yw'r dyddiad penodol.

I don't know what the specific date is at the moment, no.

Ond fel hyn rydym ni'n gweithio—hynny ydy, rydw i'n gofyn i'r cyrff sy'n gyfrifoldeb i mi i wneud y gwaith ymarferol. Mae hynny'n golygu eu bod nhw wedi bod yn ymgynghori â'r 15 o safleoedd posibl yn yr orielau ar draws Cymru ac, wrth gwrs, efo pêl-droed, cysylltu gyda chyngor Wrecsam a'r amgueddfa yn Wrecsam, wrth gwrs. Ac mae'r ddau ddatblygiad yna yn mynd i ddigwydd pan mae'r trefniadau yna i gyd wedi cael eu cwblhau.

But this is how we work—that is, I do ask the bodies accountable to me to do that practical work, and that will mean that they will have been consulting with the 15 possible sites in terms of the galleries the length and breadth Wales and, of course, in terms of football, they've been in touch with Wrexham council and Wrexham museum. And both of those developments will happen when all of those arrangements are completed.

Do you want to add anything to that?

If I could. I'd refer to them all as business cases as well. So, obviously, there were allocations within the budget deal that was done for both the projects, but we've, obviously, got to do all the due diligence work in the background to still make sure that they stack up on a value-for-money basis. So, what we expect to see is that the two business cases will be with us this summer. But there's a lot of momentum that the Minister's outlined there, and the reason that you don't see them on the face of the budget is because they will be published in the supplementary budget. But we have made this allocation within our overall revenue budget to take forward the next feasible—[Inaudible.]. So, it's all going ahead.

Okay, that's good. I just think there's a lot of interest in this, so I just want you to understand that. And I appreciate the work is under way, it's just that we're very keen to hear of progress. So, that really helps. Thank you very much.

Symudwn ymlaen at Carwyn Jones nawr.

Moving on to Carwyn Jones now.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Bore da, bawb. Gaf i ofyn i ddechrau ynglŷn â'r amgueddfa, yn enwedig yr arian sydd ar gael yn y gyllideb gyfalaf dros y flwyddyn nesaf? Rwy'n deall yn y sesiwn graffu llynedd, gwnaethoch chi sôn am ailddatblygiad Sain Ffagan, sy'n dda ac yn addas—mae rhai ohonon ni wedi'i weld e—ond fe ddywedoch chi hefyd y byddech chi'n gwneud yr un peth yn Llanberis, yn yr amgueddfa lechi. So, felly, y cwestiwn yw hyn: fe glywon yn y sesiwn graffu, pan aethon ni i Sain Ffagan, wrth Neil Wicks, sef y cyfarwyddwr cyllid, fod eisiau £50 miliwn ar Sain Ffagan er mwyn jest cynnal yr amgueddfa fel oedd hi. Felly, mae yna alw ynglŷn â chyfalaf ynglŷn â Sain Ffagan, a hefyd, wrth gwrs, bydd yna alw ynglŷn â chyfalaf ar gyfer Llanberis. Oes yna ddigon o arian ar gael i wneud y ddau?

Thank you very much, Chair. Good morning, everyone. May I ask first of all about the museum, particularly the funding available in the capital budget over the next year? I understand in the scrutiny session last year, you talked about the redevelopment in St Fagans, which is appropriate and excellent—as some of us have seen—and you said it should be doing the same thing in Llanberis, at the slate museum. So, the question is this: we heard in the scrutiny session, when we went to St Fagans, from Neil Wicks, who is the finance director, that £50 million would be required for St Fagans just to maintain the museum as it is. So, there is demand with regard to capital in terms of St Fagans, but there will also be demand in terms of capital for Llanberis. Is there sufficient funding available for both?

Wel, rydyn ni mewn trafodaeth gyson, wrth gwrs, bob tro gyda'r amgueddfa a'r orielau ynglŷn â'u hanghenion cyfalaf, a beth rydw i wedi'i wneud ydy esbonio'n glir iawn iddyn nhw ac i fy nghyfeillion—Gweinidogion eraill yn y Llywodraeth—nad oes yna, o fewn ein cyllideb ni, ddigon o arian i allu ymwneud â phrojectau cenedlaethol mawr. Ac felly, yn y gogledd, mae'r amgueddfa lechi ac, wrth gwrs, Theatr Clwyd yn ddau broject rydw i'n awyddus iawn i'w hyrwyddo ac i sicrhau cyllideb ar eu cyfer nhw. Ac mi fydda i, gobeithio—a byddwch chi'n gyfarwydd iawn â hyn, Carwyn—yn mynd â phapur i'r Cabinet ar y cynigion yma er mwyn ceisio sicrhau bod gyda ni wariant dros y blynyddoedd nesaf i gwblhau'r ddau broject yma. Mae hynny'n uchelgais cryf iawn i fi, fel un sydd â chysylltiadau hanesyddol drwy fy nheulu ac ati gyda'r diwydiant llechi, yn enwedig yn y gogledd. Mae hynny yn rhywbeth fydd hefyd yn cysylltu, rydyn ni'n gobeithio, hefo'r cynnig diweddaraf sydd wedi mynd at UNESCO ynglŷn â'r diwydiant a'r diwylliant o gwmpas llechi, yn arbennig yn y gogledd, ac rydyn ni'n gobeithio cael newyddion am y cynllun yna yn ogystal. Wyt ti eisiau ychwanegu rhywbeth yn fanna?

Well, we are in ongoing discussions with the museums and galleries on their capital requirements, and what I have done is to explain very clearly to them and to my colleagues and friends within Government that there isn't, within our budget, enough money to deal with major national projects. So, in north Wales, the slate museum and, of course, Theatr Clwyd are the two projects that I'm very eager to promote and to secure budgets for. And I will, hopefully—and you will be very familiar with this, Carwyn—be taking a paper to Cabinet with these proposals in order to ensure that we do have the funds available over the next years to complete both projects. That is a very strong ambition of mine as one who has historical links through my family with the slate industry, particularly in north Wales. That is something that will also link, hopefully, with the latest proposals submitted to UNESCO on the slate industry and the culture around the slate industry in north Wales, and we hope to hear about that proposal soon. Anything to add on that?

09:50

Yes, in terms of the capital maintenance issues, there are very significant capital maintenance issues at the museums, and I think the figure that Neil is referring to—£50 million—is across their sites across Wales. I think we've made good progress in recent years on this. We have allocated some £5 million over the last two or three years, and you'll see now, of course, the museum in Cathays Park has scaffolding all around it and there's work going ahead. By allocating an additional £2.5 million in capital maintenance for them for the next financial year, it means that they're able to press ahead and do additional work on that building whilst the scaffolding's in place and to address other priorities. But I envisage that they will need capital maintenance funding over a period of years, and there needs to be a programme of work to address all of these issues.

Yes, there are issues at the front of the building in Cathays Park.

That includes that. They raised that with us when we had—

We're looking at a ramp arrangement—they're looking at that at the moment—and there are issues about the lifts in the building, so that's very much—. Because they have the certainty of that funding for next year, they're looking to advance plans on the lifts et cetera to address those points.

Yes, so you're giving £50 million to the entire estate—that's correct. One of the things that they also said to us at St Fagans was that there are two buildings that are closed at the moment and may remain closed permanently in the future—something that I suspect we all need to avoid.

What was closed, sorry?

One of the issues that Neil Wicks raised with us was that he said that there are two historic buildings that are closed at the moment in St Fagans and they may remain permanently closed—obviously, something we want to avoid.

That's absolutely right, and it is about giving them enough money so they can address these issues. I think there are also capacity issues as to how much they can do in any particular year, but we're in regular discussions with the museums to try and give them the money they need to address the issues.

Just to add, we do recognise the position that the museum has set out there. I think there are two elements to it—not just the capital challenge that they've got in terms of the maintenance backlog that they have, but if you took those two sites as an example, at St Fagans, were they to bring those back online, then that would also, likely, bring up an additional revenue cost to operate them as well. So, it is a real challenge that they face there—we do recognise it.

They have had, versus recent years, a really good settlement in terms of capital maintenance this year. They seem pleased with the direction that it's going in, but we do recognise the overall scale of the challenge that they face.

Okay, thanks for that. Let me move on, then, to the issue of the commercial director of the museum. The museum has said that the principal reason for being unable to recruit a commercial director was the salary level. Is it the case that this is a financial issue, or is it a structural issue in terms of the band that the person would be appointed within—that they have to be on a particular scale of pay scale, and, because of that, that's acting as a deterrent to potential candidates? Is it financial or structural, or is it both?

I think it's both—it's both. This is not unusual, of course, in the public sector, as you will know well, in the attempt to secure people, whether it be at higher education or what is a similar level of position here, especially when it involves the skill set that was expected of somebody in this position. Where we are at now is that it was agreed—we agreed with them—that the starting salary should be increased to £95,000, rising to £100,000 after 12 months. The role was advertised in November and I believe interviews are about to take place, so I am hoping and praying. Is that where we are?

I've not heard prayer used before by any Minister, I have to say. [Laughter.]

There was a structural issue, in that the framework agreement that sits between Welsh Government and our arm's-length bodies—. So, specifically with the national museum, were they to seek to appoint a director at a certain salary threshold, that would have been a consent measure that they came to the Welsh Government for, because they couldn't just do it themselves, so they did that. We went back to them and agreed to that, and then they started the recruitment process. So, we've sorted out the structural stuff. Whether they can afford it is an executive decision for the museum.

09:55

Sorry, Carwyn, David Melding wants to come in on that.

Sorry, Carwyn, you were pressing this point, but the order of magnitude—£95,000, did you say, up to £100,000? But you're talking £300,000 to £500,000 is probably what you need to pay at a market rate for a commercial director—something around twice the salary of the director, and this is a challenge that institutions face all around the world. I know it seems weird, but that's the position, and unless they can move on that basis, it's not going to happen, is it?

Well, I'm not prepared to comment any further in my position, because we're at sensitive times, as I indicated in possibly making an appointment, but there are people who want to do this kind of work because they have a great affection for the institution, and, clearly, you will know that the new president has been very active in trying to ensure that we have quality personnel, especially in this commercial area, and I'm very hopeful that there can be a result. 

But if you appoint someone partly through vocational commitment, that's hardly a sustainable position, is it? I mean, as I said, internationally, this is a problem that, basically, has been confronting heritage institutions, and the ones that have really succeeded, in commercial terms, in maximising that level market are paying something like a market rate, because year-in, year-out, that's what you're going to have to do, otherwise you're in this incredible process of trying to recruit someone with the commitment of heart to do it rather than predominantly a professional desire.

I think you can have both. There are individuals who have both, and that's the kind of person that I'm hoping will be appointed. But I can't say any more.

Just very quickly to add that no national museum UK director gets anywhere near the salary figure you set out there. The highest paid UK national museum director, including bonuses, would be on around £200,000—that's the absolute max. And commercial director-type posts in Wales, it's a wider issue, obviously, but have been around that level. And we know that there's a very strong field this time, so we think the museum will get an exceptional candidate.

John Griffiths, briefly—sorry, Carwyn, they're all jumping in now. 

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I just wonder what thought has been given to creating a wider role for a commercial director across more than one organisation in our public sector in Wales, and perhaps more specifically in the heritage and cultural sector, or even, perhaps, co-operating more with other organisations. I think the National Trust, for example, has a very strong record in terms of generating commercial income, and I just wonder if we're thinking left-field enough in terms of these matters. 

I am not a fan of—what shall I say—creating new structural relationships? I believe very strongly in partnership between existing bodies. Now, obviously, I've been involved with the National Trust before I was in this post and, obviously, I'm aware and I have experience in the national library and other organisations, but I think it's important for the national museum and galleries, in particular in its international importance as a flagship for Welsh culture—and the same thing applies to Cadw within the heritage conservation area—I want to maintain the management integrity of these organisations so that they're able, in a sense, to compete with each other in terms of their performance. Because I think that is what drives heritage in Wales, especially these days, there's such massive interest in Welsh heritage at the moment and to make sure that that continues to be encouraged is to make sure that these organisations retain as much autonomy as possible. Although, obviously, working in partnership on particular projects and on activities where there is synergy.

So, I agree in terms of the importance of collaboration, but I'd be very reluctant to—. Well, it's not my job anyway to interfere with the autonomy of the president and trustees of the national museum, and, of course, I wouldn't dare go near the National Trust in that way.

10:00

Ocê, diolch. Symudwn ymlaen at Carwyn Jones.

Thank you. Moving on to Carwyn Jones.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I don't want to give evidence to the committee, but one thing, just to answer David's point, the public sector's never been able to compete with the private sector on salary. Part of the problem is, first of all, the financial element and the effect on other areas of Government where people feel that they should get the same money. Secondly, of course, people are often put off by the idea of having their salary on the front page of the paper through a freedom of information request. That's often a deterrent. It's a matter now for the museum to move forward on that.

Dau beth, felly, i gloi, gyda fi. Rwy'n deall, nôl ym mis Tachwedd 2018 roeddech chi o flaen y pwyllgor, ac roeddwn i, yn amlwg, ddim ar y pwyllgor bryd hynny. Dau beth a ddywedoch chi ar y pryd—gwnaethoch chi sôn am Cymru Creadigol ac fe ddywedoch chi bryd hynny eich bod chi'n ddiamynegddar i weld pethau'n dechrau symud gyda Cymru Creadigol ac i ddechrau'r broses a lansio'r corff. Rwy'n deall bod yna ateb nawr, bod yna lythyr wedi mynd at Gadeirydd y pwyllgor sydd yn cadarnhau bod Cymru Creadigol yn cael ei lansio ar 29—

Two things to conclude from me. I understand that, back in November 2018, you appeared before the committee. I wasn't on the committee then, obviously, but two things that you said at the time—you spoke about Creative Wales and you said at that time that you were determined to see things moving in terms of Creative Wales and to initiate the process and launch the body. I understand that there is a response now, a letter has been sent to the Chair of the committee that confirms that there will be a launch event for Creative Wales on 29—

Ac mae gwahoddiad ichi gyd i ddod, nid jest y Cadeirydd. 

And you're all invited to attend, not just the Chair.

Diolch yn fawr am hwnna.

Thank you very much for that.

Os byddwn ni'n gallu peidio â bod yn y Senedd ar yr un pryd, byddwn ni i gyd oll yno. Mae e ar nos Fercher—

As long as we're not all in the Senedd at the time, we will all be there. It's on a Wednesday evening.

Un o'r pethau mae'n rhaid i fi eu gofyn, wrth gwrs, yw—halodd e dros flwyddyn i gyrraedd y sefyllfa hon. Beth oedd y rheswm am yr amser a gymerodd e?

One of the things I have to ask, of course, is that it took over a year to reach this particular situation. What was the reason for the time that it took?

Wel, doedd etholiad cyffredinol San Steffan ddim yn help, oherwydd roedd yna gyfnod o ddau fis pan oeddem ni'n methu â gweithredu'n gyhoeddus. Ond roeddem ni wedi gallu gweithredu yn fewnol ac fe benodwyd Gerwyn Evans i fod yn gyfrifol am Cymru Creadigol, ac mae gen i ymddiriedaeth mawr ynddo fo ar sail ei lwyddiant arbennig yn cydweithio â fi ym maes twristiaeth cyn iddo fo gymryd cyfrifoldeb am Cymru Creadigol.

Rydyn ni hefyd wedi symud ymlaen yn fewnol, ac efallai y gall Jason ddweud rhyw gymaint am hyn wrthych chi, ynglŷn â'r broses o sicrhau bod gyda ni staff cymwys i weithio gyda Gerwyn yn y teitl o ddirprwy gyfarwyddwr, er cyfarwyddwr ydy'r swydd, wrth gwrs, gyda Cymru Creadigol. Ac felly, mi fyddwn ni'n symud ymlaen a dwi'n gobeithio, erbyn y lawnsiad ddiwedd y mis yma, y byddwn ni mewn sefyllfa i hysbysebu'r swyddi o gadeirydd ac aelodau'r bwrdd a'i gwneud yn union fel wnaethom ni gyda Cadw: eu hysbysebu nhw ar yr un pryd yn y gobaith y gallwn ni gael pobl cymwys, a dwi'n gwybod bod yna bobl cymwys sydd yn awyddus iawn i fod yn rhan o'r corff cynhyrfus yma.

Well, the Westminster general election wasn't a great help, because there was a period of two months when we couldn't act publicly. But we have been taking action internally, and Gerwyn Evans was appointed to be responsible for Creative Wales, and I have a huge level of trust in him, given his great success in working with me in tourism before he took responsibility for Creative Wales.

We have also made progress internally, and perhaps Jason can say a few words about this, in terms of the process of ensuring that we do have qualified staff in place to work with Gerwyn in the role of deputy director, although it is a directorship to all intents and purposes, with Creative Wales. So, we will be moving forward, and I do hope that by the launch at the end of this month, we will be in a position to advertise the posts of chair and board members, and to do just as we did with Cadw: to advertise them simultaneously in the hope that we can get qualified individuals in place, and I know that there are qualified individuals who are eager to be part of this exciting body.

Do you want to add anything?

Diolch, Weinidog. Just to say that we were ready to go ahead of that 12-month deadline. We had a venue booked, the speakers there, everything lined up, and then we did have to—

It was going to be. It was going to be a very creative sector party, but we had to pull that because of the general election. So, everything's now ready for 29 January.

As the Minister said, there's been a lot of work going on over that period, if I could just touch on that. So, we've had to do a lot of internal work. So, Creative Wales will remain within the Welsh Government. It will have a similar kind of feel to it, I guess, organisationally, as Cadw and Visit Wales. It will be very outward facing, but will still remain a division of the Welsh Government. So, over the last couple of months, we've actually been restructuring the current team that have been working on the creative sector into what will become Creative Wales. So, we've gone through that process over the last couple of months. Existing staff have been matched into roles. Gerwyn's been appointed as the deputy director, effectively, the chief executive.

What will become more clear on 29 January is that we will, obviously, be broadening the scope of the services that we provide. We will be doing additional things as a consequence of creating Creative Wales, and that is going to require some additional resource to go into the organisation. So, the next step will be, from January, trying to populate the remaining posts that exist then. We've got to do that through the existing civil service recruitment principles. So, there has genuinely been a lot of progress behind this, and we're all gearing up now for 29 January.

10:05

A'r cwestiwn diwethaf, felly, wrthyf fi: yn yr un pwyllgor, fe wnaethoch chi sôn am gyllideb Cymru Creadigol, ac fe ddywedoch chi ar y pryd y byddai cyllideb glir yn yr adran o tua £30 miliwn. Os edrychwn ni ar y gyllideb ddrafft hon, felly, £7.7 miliwn yw'r gyllideb, wrth edrych ar y gyllideb gyfalaf a refeniw. So felly, dim yn agos i'r £30 miliwn. Oes yna reswm am hwnna? Yn gyntaf, ydy'r ffigyrau yn iawn, ond yn ail, oes yna reswm? Wrth gwrs, mae yna resymau ariannol, rwy'n deall hynny fy hun, ond oes yna unrhyw resymau eraill o gwbl?

And the final question from me: in the same committee meeting, you spoke about the budget for Creative Wales, and you said at that time that there would be a clear budget within the department of around £30 million. If we look at this draft budget, of course, £7.7 million is the budget, looking at the capital and revenue. So it's nowhere near the £30 million. Is there a reason for that? Is that figure correct, first of all? Secondly, of course there are financial reasons, I understand that, but are there any other reasons?

The budget that's laid out there is the Welsh Government bit of the Creative Wales pot that we've got for the next financial year. There are other considerations in terms of match funding that comes into projects, a whole range of other sources of funding to support the creative sector in Wales, and also, this is a one-year budget. I think when we were talking about Creative Wales last year we were talking about it over the longer term. So we are, as officials, in terms of support for the sector, very pleased with the allocation that we've got for next year. We believe that will allow us to implement Creative Wales and make really good progress. Huw, I don't know if you want to come in.

So that extra funding—. You mentioned earlier that you think it still needs that extra funding, what would that look like, and what would that feel like in terms of how that would be able to be widened?

I guess for a standard sort of—. So, if you look at the film and tv sector, if you were looking at a new production coming into Wales, it wouldn't just be a Welsh Government contribution going into landing that production; it could be a range of sources, from local authority, private equity, to other things. So, I think it's just important when we think of the budget for Creative Wales we don't just think of it in terms of the Welsh Government bit of it, because it's a massive sector—it's around 10 per cent of GDP in Wales, it's absolutely enormous. So it's broader than that. But that was just our figure for the budget. We're happy, I think, with it.

Okay, so £7.7 million from Welsh Government and the rest made up in other ways, and realistically you think that would be £30 million.

Over a period of five years.

For Creative Wales, we've said—more will become clear on 29 January, but we're trying to frame it in a five-year window. And again, it's important to stress, I think, that the sector's doing really well at the moment, and the level of money that's in there for the next financial year is not dissimilar from the level of money that we've had to put in to grow film and tv over the last five years. So we've got a really good feel for what budget we need and that, the £7.7. million we think is strong and we think it will enable us to continue to grow the sector.

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. Can I look at the media investment budget, which takes us on in this theme? It's a very important area. I think we all believe that investment in film and tv development and building on our creative industries, is hugely important.

Now, when the investment budget was launched in 2014, it was envisaged that it would be a £30 million fund over a five-year period. That would, I think, have taken us to the end of the last financial year, or perhaps the end of the current one—I don't know. But anyway, in the event, we've spent about £15 million. We seem to be on pause. I think Mr Thomas said at our last budget scrutiny last year that the fund was on pause, and it seems to me that the reason this has happened is the self-sustaining nature of this type of investment programme has not been achieved in terms of the receipts that had been anticipated. So, the concept seems to be under some threat at the moment, and I just wonder—is that a fair description? Are we about to see some progress, and these obstacles being overcome? Where, currently, are we at? I do notice in the projects funded so far no dates are given, so I'm not quite sure how recent some of them are, but certainly, in terms of net gain or loss, we're not where we would have hoped to be. I really do phrase this question in the spirit that we need a fund like this, and I guess this is the first time we've done it, but where are we? Because this is obviously an important area and there seems to be some problem with it at the moment.

10:10

Our figure for the total Welsh spend as a result of the investment in the media investment budget is £25 million. I will ask my colleagues to justify that figure further to you.

If we go back to when this programme was created, profit, in terms of overall return on the production itself, was never really the prime objective. The objective was an overall return on investment for the Welsh public purse. So, as the Minister says, for the amount of defrayment, which was probably in the region of £15 million over the period, we have evidence that we've brought in £25 million of spend into Wales. So, we think it's been really successful.

The reason that we paused it was we wanted to ensure that, with the launch of Creative Wales, we were just using the correct mechanisms for these things. Obviously, the landscape has moved on significantly even over the four or five years from when the fund was created. There are different things that we want to see from Welsh Government investment than we probably would have even done back in 2014. We've had things like the economic contract that has come out of the economic action plan, and there are certain other things that we want to ensure that we get delivered through our money—you know, the real living wage and all of these different things that, perhaps, have moved on slightly since 2014. So, we thought it was right to pause.

What we still absolutely recognise is there is a case for public investment to support film and tv production coming into Wales. So, what we're going to do with Creative Wales is just bring all of that together and go again, really, with a mechanism that we feel is appropriate for the time now. So, we totally agree that we need to keep doing these things, but we would still say that the money we've invested in the media investment budget was spent, overall, well. Because, overall, £25 million of investment for a net £10 million—. So, we invested £15 million, but we've recouped £5 million in terms of receipts. So, a £25 million return on a £10 million investment, we think, is good.

Was that anticipated originally? Because in my interpretation, what you anticipated originally was that this would be a self-maintaining fund and that your receipts would then, in the future, generate the investment potential for the programme to continue. It would be self-funding, in other words, over time. Now, we don't seem to be anywhere close to that, or am I wrong in saying that?

No, I don't think you're wrong in saying that. I think we fell short in terms of the commercial receipts that we've had. The view was that the receipts that would come in would create budget for the creative team to defray. What we're saying now is that we don't actually think—we think, maybe, there's a better way of actually doing this.

So, that concept is not feasible now. I accept that when you put a programme into effect you learn lessons, I guess, but I just think we do need candour about this. Should we be disappointed that the overall investment, at £15 million, is only half of what was anticipated to be generated in a five-year period? Is that because there's been a lack of appetite amongst the sector to take up investment opportunities in Wales, and therefore the volume of investment—the number of productions, in other words—has been disappointing?

No, I wouldn't say that at all. Pinewood Cymru—the last time I was there, I couldn't find even a place to sit down. The activity, partly due to His Dark Materials but also all of the other activity with Bad Wolf, and the use of that building has been very successful. All our potential spaces—as a result of that, poor Jason has been running around warehouses all over Newport trying to get space for that activity to take place. In my discussions—I've met Universal three times since they've been involved in Wales, and they are very, very positive about the relationship between ourselves and them.

So, if it's not a lack of potential partners, was £30 million over five years just too big an expectation? Is that where we're at?

I think, at the time, we took that on advice. We had an external sector panel that was in place then and said, 'Set the bar high, be ambitious, that is what you should aim for.' The point I would just stress is that we have definitely not recouped what we would have totally liked to recoup, but the nature of this business is it's still only a snapshot in time. Many of these investments will still recoup over the coming years. So, it's not a final figure, and some of these things could garner—[Inaudible.]

10:15

It's still work in progress. And when you have the candour to say, 'It's not done as well as was anticipated', in my view, that increases your credibility of what you may be doing in the review process, and that's where I want to get to, really. So, we paused it last year, are we actively making any investments at the moment?

And a rough idea of the volume of that; has it run at £1 million or so, or more, or what?

We've invested in around 10 projects since we closed the medium-investment budget, so we've been taking forward investments via normal mechanisms within the department, really. An application comes to us, we consider it, we put a level of scrutiny over that and we put advice up through the normal channels. So, I think it's 10 investments since we closed it, but we could provide you a note with the actual dates on them.

So, any potential partners now looking to produce something in Wales are not going to be put off by a lack of—.

No. This sector is absolutely thriving at the moment. And as the Minister says, we've created a very nice problem for ourselves in that we have to try and find space to cater for what is a fast-growing sector.

I want to turn to a completely different area. I realise time is pressing. In our recent inquiry on the live music scene there was demand from the sector for some small sums of capital funding to be available to live music venues, and there is a similar scheme—well, there is a scheme in England, run by the arts council there, that provides some funding. I think pro rata, if we had that in Wales, we'd be talking £80,000 to £100,000, it's not a huge amount, and then grants of up to £15,000 or so, which would help the small venues with sound equipment or such capital costs. Are you looking at this? Because it does seem to be an area where there's a bit of a gap at the moment in what's available to a really important sector, I think, of the arts scene.

We have funded PYST, but that's not specifically for venues. That is for contemporary Welsh language and other language musical activity. But this will be a priority for Creative Wales, we think.

We recognise that this is a challenge all over Wales. Growing up where I grew up, live music was a thing in the Rhondda constantly and it seems to have definitely dropped off over the years. What we will say in Creative Wales—I'm not giving away, I don't think, too much in this—is the relentless focus that we've had on film and tv over the past decade, almost, has paid dividends but has potentially been at the cost of other sectors within creative, because we've been so focused on film and tv. And what we do recognise is that there are other elements of the sector, music being one, local music, gaming—attaching these other bits of creative that need more emphasis. So, we will be saying something about music, and we will definitely be looking at what capital is required to make venues thrive.

But also, to the Minister's point on PYST, you can invest in the infrastructure and the equipment and make it all look great, but you've got to put in a support package for operators as well, because if you're an operator of a small venue—and we see this all over Wales now—it is a big risk sometimes to put on a gig. If they lose money, people are going to really struggle to put on another gig. So, we're looking at mechanisms—and we've done this with PYST—about how we can take away some of that risk and encourage them to put on gigs and then hopefully the music will build and build then. So, it's definitely a priority. 

We are at the moment awaiting a further study of the mapping of grass-roots music venues across Wales. This will give us a good geographical map of grass-roots music and what further needs are. When we get that certainty, and when we've had a look at it, we can share it with you.

Finally from me, it's just to amplify something—to use the appropriate metaphor—that came out of that inquiry: with these venues, the whole pipeline to sustain an excellence in live music means you've got to look at the grass roots as well, you can't just be at the high end where you get thousands attending. The small venues are really, really important. So, I'm sure we'll await developments with great interest, as will the sector. Diolch yn fawr.

We'll send you our report when it's finalised. Diolch. Mick Antoniw. 

10:20

You've previously expressed your aspiration for there to be more work done to promote our industrial heritage, and I was wondering how you see this budget actually working towards that aspiration.

We have indeed emphasised industrial heritage, and I'm very pleased with the response that I've had, especially from colleagues in Cadw, in this whole area. We are looking, for example, to—. We've already provided £0.7 million in capital grants to owners of historic assets, including industrial heritage sites such as Nantgarw china works. We are looking at an increase to the allocation of these grant programmes over a level of £1.1 million during 2020-21, and to encourage further applications from those who manage assets relating to our industrial heritage. Do you want to add something on that?

Only that it does definitely remain a priority for us. We've got some really exciting things in the pipeline. I don't know if you've ever been to Bryntail lead mine, but it's one of these phenomenal sites across Wales that sometimes we need to do more to raise the profile of, so we've got plans to do that. That's just one example. From the Minister setting out his priority, Cadw have been actively taking that forward over the last 12 months.

There will be new interpretation at the site that Jason has just referred to, as well as one of my favourite sites in all the world, which is the Blaenavon ironworks. There'll be further interpretation work there. And the archaeological trusts have been working with us in understanding the importance of the metal-working industries in south Wales, and how we can improve the interpretation, and signposting additional heritage sites that are open to the public more clearly.

We are preparing two newly illustrated booklets concentrating on the industrial heritage. I don't apologise for starting with the castles of the Lords of Wales in terms of our publication programme, but we are now getting to the working-class castles as well. So, the draft budget will include provision for the completion of these publications, so there will then be a greater awareness, we hope, of our outstanding industrial heritage.

I'm obviously very pleased to see investment and support for places like Nantgarw china works. I think they, in some ways, have been missed gems in the past. And obviously places like Llantrisant Guildhall and so on, where there's been continued support. The £0.7 million isn't an enormous amount of money. How is that money used? Is it more by way of leveraging, rather than funding specifically itself? Is that the way in which what is a relatively small amount of money is actually being used?

That is actually—. Where the sites are owned by Cadw, it is Cadw investing in its own sites; but where the sites are run by other bodies, we provide funding specifically for providing better interpretation, better access and other aspects of the site. Do you want to say a bit more about that?

But it is about looking to leverage other money as well, because the maximum grants that Cadw normally give under that that scheme is £50,000.

We are looking to match with other sources of funding.

Cadw, in terms of its income—. Is support also being given to Cadw in respect of them growing their investment income? Because they have been very successful, haven't they, over the last five or six years? I think it's increased from something like—. It's almost a 100 per cent increase, isn't it, from £4 million to around about £8 million plus? Is that part of the strategy as well?

Yes, absolutely, it is. As you say, the income has grown from about £4.8 million to—I think last year was £7.7 million. This year, we think, will come in at maybe £8.3 million or something like that. Cadw has allocated specific funding, totalling about £10 million over a period of three years, to invest in our own monuments, which we've been doing. The Cadw budget for next year is £8 million on capital, and there's going to be major investment in Caernarfon castle and Caerphilly castle in particular, looking at a new catering facility in Caerphilly castle, extending the facilities at Caernarfon, improving the retail offer—

—and lift access to areas of the monument in Caernarfon, certainly. But it's about—we are looking to invest and to grow that income base. A lot of the planning and preparatory work has been carried out now, and next year and the year after will be the years of big spend in these new, improved facilities.

10:25

There are some further questions I could ask, but time is very, very tight. I just wanted to ask a specific question about some of the funding for the local museums. The £1.4 million, the capital transformation grant, I think, is of interest. I notice there that, of course, it was £1.4 million, but there were quite substantial bids for that money—£3.58 million, I think, is the figure that we've got—so clearly there's a real demand there in terms of the work that our local museums actually do. And I was just wondering how you see the budget in terms of the capacity to actually give that level of support to what are sometimes seen as less important than other museums, but which, I think, for local communities are vitally important, and particularly with some of the education work that's going on now.

What we try to do—and Huw's point earlier—is encourage the regional and local museums and galleries to look at packages of funding, and we are able to advise them there and to assist them, and of course where the Heritage Lottery Fund makes a substantial contribution in those areas, we very much welcome that. The partnership we have with heritage lottery in Wales is very positive, and we meet regularly, and we're able to assess and understand what the demand is. But as you say, we are running to catch up with the enthusiasm that these institutions have.

John Griffiths, I know, has some heritage questions as well. John.

Just on heritage, I wonder if there's sufficient resource and support available for ambitious projects that local authorities in Wales and others might have. I'm thinking specifically of the Newport transporter bridge, being slightly parochial, because I know you're aware of the proposals, Minister, and I just wondered if you could say something about the availability of resource for that scale of project, really.

Well, that's a very good example of where we look forward to a good partnership with heritage lottery and with the local authority. I have enjoyed my visits to the transporter bridge. It deserves a proper interpretation centre, and it will have it. We'll make sure of that.

We've had really positive discussions with Newport, and it crosses many bits of the Minister's portfolio—tourism and heritage. I'm meeting the chief executive of Newport council later on today, talking about a wide range of things within the portfolio that link to Newport. So we are really keen on that project. I guess it's another one of these projects that the Minister touched on at the start of the session. It's a significant amount of money to do it justice, and we've got to prioritise everything and see how we look at all these projects in the round and make sure that we put money into the right things. But this one certainly looks really strong.

The word 'iconic' is often misused or used too loosely in heritage projects, but if it applies to any site in Wales, it's Newport, isn't it? You can see it from everywhere, it's the symbol of industrial south-east Wales as you arrive there, and we have a duty, because I remember—and I may have said this before to you—that when I visited the other bridge in Bilbao, they chastised me for not looking after the Newport bridge better, because they said that the one in Newport was even better than theirs. So, it is the transporter bridge of transporter bridges, really. It's very important for us.

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much for that. The final question from me is on the community journalism fund, the £100,000 that I think was for a two-year period. Are you yet at the stage where you've made any assessment of the outcomes, and whether that money has achieved the desired objectives? Are you able to say anything about possible continuation of that money?

I'm in some difficulty about answering you properly on this; I may have to send you a further note. Although the community journalism fund is a responsibility of mine in terms of portfolio, it is actually funded through the entrepreneurship budget, not through the culture budget. Where there was, as you know, a two-year period commitment following discussions with Plaid Cymru for this to be delivered, Welsh Government officials have continued to work with Cardiff University's Centre for Community Journalism to promote the fund, and there is a workshop, I think, there has been a workshop with the centre to meet the community journalism sector and encourage applications. And there is a small independent study to be commissioned very soon—I have a note here—to evaluate the impact of the fund and the lessons learnt. I don't know whether there's any more we can say on that, but we'll get back to you on that.

10:30

If you could send us a note, that would be good, because we had some concerns from some people that if they were applying for another fund, say, with the Welsh Books Council, that they weren't then able to apply for this particular fund to do something entirely different. So, I think we would like to see any sort of review and how it takes shape, and how, potentially then, we can move on for the next tranche of the funding. So, diolch yn fawr iawn. 

They may like to apply for both and they probably would get one of them. 

They'd probably want both though, that's the thing. [Laughter.] The funding is quite small, that's the thing. So, I think, where these hyperlocals are seeking for more than one budget, it's for entirely rational and legitimate reasons, but in different areas. But we look forward to what you have to show us. 

There may have been more questions, but—

Dwi'n siŵr byddai mwy o gwestiynau wedi gallu dod, ond dŷn ni'n brin o amser gan bod sesiwn sgrwtini arall gyda ni, felly byddwn ni'n ysgrifennu atoch chi os oes mwy o gwestiynau, os yw hynny'n iawn gyda chi. Ond diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod atom ni heddiw. Diolch. 

Byddwn ni'n cymryd seibiant o bum munud os yw hynny'n iawn i Aelodau. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

I'm sure that there could have been further questions asked, but we are short of time because we do have another scrutiny session, so we will be writing to you if we have any questions, if that's okay with you. But, thank you very much to you for joining us today. Thank you. 

We'll take a short break of five minutes if that's okay with Members. Thank you. 

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:31 a 10:40.

The meeting adjourned between 10:31 and 10:40.

10:40
3. Craffu ar Gyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer 2020-21 – Gweinidog y Gymraeg a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol
3. Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2020-21 - Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language

Diolch a chroeso yn ôl i Bwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu. Rydym yn symud ymlaen yn awr at eitem 3 ar yr agenda, sef craffu ar gyllideb ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer y flwyddyn 2020-21, gyda Gweinidog y Gymraeg a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol. Felly, croeso i Eluned Morgan a hefyd croeso i Bethan Webb, sef dirprwy gyfarwyddwr y Gymraeg. Blwyddyn newydd dda; rwy'n teimlo fel tasai'r flwyddyn wedi cychwyn yn barod, ond blwyddyn newydd dda ta beth.

Dŷn ni fel arfer, fel dŷch chi'n gwybod, yn mynd i ofyn cwestiynau ar sail themâu gwahanol. Bydd Aelodau Cynulliad eraill yn dod i mewn maes o law. Jest o ran cwestiwn cyntaf gen i, felly, o ran gosod yr agenda o ran y gyllideb, dŷn ni wedi cael cryn gonsyrn gan nifer o bobl bod y setliad ar gyfer cyllideb y Gymraeg yn un fflat a'i fod yn llai na chwyddiant ac yn llai na'r cynnydd cyfartalog yn y gyllideb yn gyffredinol, ac yn llawer llai na'r cynnydd o 21.8 y cant i'ch adran chi yn gyffredinol, Gweinidog. A ydych chi'n gallu esbonio pam felly mae yna lai o fuddsoddiad yn y maes yma'n benodol?

Thank you and welcome back to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee. We move now to item 3 on the agenda, which is scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget for the financial year 2020-21. This session is with the Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language. So, welcome to Eluned Morgan and also welcome to Bethan Webb, who is deputy director for the Welsh language. Happy new year; it feels as though the year has long since started, but happy new year anyway.

We are, as usual, as you know, going to ask questions on specific themes and other Members will come in in due course, but just in terms of a first question from me, in terms of setting out the agenda for the budget, we've heard a great deal of concern from a number of people that the settlement for the Welsh language budget is flat and that it's less than inflation and less than the relative increase in the budget in general, and much less than the increase of 21.8 per cent for your department in general, Minister. Can you explain why that is, and why there is less investment in this field particularly?

Member
Eluned Morgan AM 10:41:56
Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language

Dwi'n meddwl ei fod yn bwysig i danlinellu bod yna ddim llai—mae'n cadw'n gyson. Ond un o'r prif bethau rŷm ni'n trio ei wneud yn yr adran Gymraeg nawr yw sicrhau ein bod ni'n prif ffrydio'r Gymraeg, ac felly dylech chi ddim edrych ar y gyllideb yma jest fel un rhan o'r arian sy'n mynd ar y Gymraeg. Mae hwn yn mynd ar draws y Llywodraeth yn gyffredinol. Os ydych chi'n edrych ar bob math o bethau, yn arbennig os ydych chi'n edrych, er enghraifft, ar yr arian cyfalaf a aeth i mewn i ddatblygu ysgolion y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, roedd £45 miliwn ychwanegol wedi dod i mewn a oedd yn uniongyrchol yn helpu'r Gymraeg. Felly, byddai jest ffocysu ar y llinellau yma, rwy'n meddwl, yn gamgymeriad.

I think it's important that we highlight that it isn't a reduction—it's remaining consistent. But one of the main things that we are doing within the Welsh language department is mainstreaming the Welsh language, and therefore, you shouldn't look at this budget in isolation in terms of the funding spent on the Welsh language. That is spent across Government. If you look at all sorts of different things, particularly if you look, for example, at the capital funding into the development of schools last year, an additional £45 million had been introduced that directly assisted the Welsh language. So, just focusing on these budget lines would be a mistake in my view. 

Ocê, diolch am hynny, ond rwy'n credu ein bod ni wedi clywed eto gan Gymdeithas yr Iaith—maen nhw wedi dweud bod Llywodraeth Cymru ddim yn gweld y Gymraeg yn ddigon o flaenoriaeth a bod angen cynnydd mewn termau real i symud lefelau gwariant tuag at y rhai a welir yng Ngwlad y Basg. Rwy'n cydnabod beth rŷch chi'n ei ddweud o ran prif ffrydio, ond ydych chi'n cytuno â'r hyn y maen nhw'n ei ddweud o ran y blaenoriaethau yn y gyllideb yma yn benodol, y gallent fod wedi bod yn uwch?

Okay, thank you for that, but I think we've heard again from Cymdeithas yr Iaith, which has said that the Welsh Government doesn't consider the Welsh language a sufficient priority and that there needs to be a real-terms increase to move spending levels towards those seen in the Basque Country. I acknowledge what you say in terms of mainstreaming, but do you agree with what Cymdeithas yr Iaith say in terms of priorities in this budget specifically—that they could have been greater?

Dwi yn meddwl bod yn rhaid ichi edrych ar draws y Llywodraeth, fel rwy'n ei ddweud. Os ydych chi'n edrych ar beth rŷm ni'n ei wneud, er enghraifft, yn y maes iechyd hefyd, rŷch chi wedi gweld cynnydd sylweddol yn yr arian sy'n mynd i iechyd a rŷch chi wedi gweld nawr bod safonau iaith yn dod i mewn i'r adran iechyd. Felly, bydd yna lot fwy o Gymraeg yn cael ei gweld yn yr adrannau yna. Ac, wrth gwrs, dyw'r arian a'r gwaith ychwanegol yna ddim yn mynd i gael eu hadlewyrchu yn y gyllideb yma. Felly, dwi yn meddwl ei fod yn bwysig bod pobl—Cymdeithas yr Iaith a phobl eraill—yn deall bod y sefyllfa'n lot fwy cymhleth na jest edrych ar y llinellau yma.

I do think that you have to look across Government. If you look at what we're doing in health, for example, you will have seen a substantial increase in the funds provided to health and you will now see that language standards are being applied in health. So, a lot more of the Welsh language will be seen in those areas. And, of course, that funding and that additional work isn't reflected in this particular budget. So, I do think it's important that people—Cymdeithas yr Iaith and others—do understand that the situation is a lot more complex than simply looking at these budget lines.

Felly, byddech chi'n anghytuno, felly, eich bod chi ddim yn rhoi'r flaenoriaeth, oherwydd y ffaith eich bod chi'n prif ffrydio a'ch bod chi'n hyderus bod adrannau eraill y Llywodraeth yn gwneud y gwaith hwnnw o brif ffrydio.

So, you would disagree that you're not making the Welsh language a priority because you're mainstreaming the language and you're confident that other departments of Government are doing that work of mainstreaming.

Dwi yn meddwl bod hynny'n digwydd, ac wrth gwrs rŷm ni'n awyddus bod mwy o hynny'n digwydd. Ambell waith, ein nod ni yw arwain i geisio gwthio rhai o'r adrannau i mewn i wneud pethau ac wedyn tynnu nôl o ran y cyllidebau rŷm ni'n eu defnyddio a'u cael nhw i ddefnyddio eu cyllidebau eu hunain. Felly, mae hynny'n rhan o'r strategaeth rŷm ni'n ei ddefnyddio. Er enghraifft, gyda'r llinell gyswllt newydd, sydd ar fin cael ei lansio, rŷm ni'n rhoi arian i mewn, ond yn y tymor hir rŷm ni'n gobeithio y bydd adran yr economi yn cymryd yr awenau yn y maes yna.

I do think that that is happening, and of course, we are eager to ensure that more of it happens. On occasion, our aim is to lead to try and push some of the other departments into doing things and then withdrawing the budgets that we're using and getting them to use their own budgets. So, that's part of our strategy. For example, with the new helpline, which is about to be launched, we are providing funding, yes, but in the longer term we hope that the economy department will take the reins in that particular area.

Oce. Diolch. Delyth Jewell.

Okay. Thank you. Delyth Jewell.

Diolch. Bore da. Rwy'n mynd i ofyn rhai cwestiynau ynglŷn â dyraniadau'r gyllideb a'r berthynas gyda strategaeth 'Cymraeg 2050'—dwi ddim yn siŵr sut dylwn i fod yn ynganu hwnna, ond '2050' wna i ddweud. Ydych chi'n meddwl bod y dyraniadau'n ddigonol i chi fel Llywodraeth i gyflawni'r cerrig milltir eleni ar gyfer y strategaeth yna?

Thank you. Good morning. I'm just going to ask some questions about the allocations from the budget and the relationship with the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy—I don't know exactly how we should be pronouncing that title, but I'll say '2050'. Do you believe that the allocations are sufficient for you as a Government to achieve the milestones this year for that strategy?

10:45

Wel, os ydych chi yn edrych ar y cerrig milltir, dwi yn meddwl ein bod ni'n mynd i'r cyfeiriad cywir. So, mae rhai ohonyn nhw, er enghraifft trosglwyddo'r Gymraeg tu mewn i'r teulu—mae hynny'n rhywbeth byddwn ni'n gwneud lot mwy o waith arno eleni. Bydd rhywfaint o arian yn mynd at hynny eleni—£30,000—wrth baratoi cynllun newydd ar gyfer sut rŷn ni'n helpu i drosglwyddo'r Gymraeg yn y teulu. Roedd e'n sioc i fi i weld cyn lleied o bobl sydd yn trosglwyddo'r Gymraeg tu mewn i'r teulu, felly mae'n amlwg bod lot o waith. Mae lot o waith eisoes yn cael ei wneud gyda Cymraeg i Blant ac ati, ond dwi yn meddwl ein bod ni'n mynd i'r cyfeiriad iawn yn fanna.

Os ŷch chi'n edrych ar ddefnydd iaith, rŷn ni eisiau symud defnydd iaith o 10 y cant i 11 y cant erbyn 2021. Unwaith eto, rŷn ni'n rhoi lot fwy o arian i mewn i bethau fel Cymraeg Gwaith i sicrhau bod yna gyfle—. Un o'r problemau sydd i'w chael gyda—. Mae lot mwy o blant gyda ni nawr yn mynd drwy ysgolion Cymraeg, ond mae'r defnydd yn cwympo i lawr ar ôl 16 mlwydd oed. Felly, mae'n rhaid i ni roi'r cyfle iddyn nhw ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg. Mae arian wedi mynd i mewn i'r Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, wrth gwrs, ac mae lot mwy o arian wedi mynd i mewn i Cymraeg Gwaith yn y gorffennol, felly mae yna gyfleoedd nawr i bobl ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg, ac rŷn ni'n hyderus gyda hynny—bod hynny'n mynd i'r cyfeiriad cywir.

Wrth gwrs, os rŷn ni eisiau gweld y tymor hir, beth sy'n bwysig yw ein bod ni'n rhoi'r arian i sicrhau mai plant ifanc sy'n dysgu'r Gymraeg, o oedran ifanc iawn. Rŷn ni wedi gweld cynnydd aruthrol oherwydd y £1 miliwn ychwanegol aeth i mewn i ddatblygu addysg ysgolion meithrin. Mae eisoes 19 o ysgolion meithrin newydd wedi agor. Rŷn ni yn hyderus y byddwn ni'n cyrraedd 40—rŷn ni'n gobeithio ei gyrraedd erbyn 2021. Felly, unwaith eto, rŷn ni'n meddwl ein bod ni yn y cyfeiriad cywir.

Ac wedyn, o ran faint o blant sy'n cael eu haddysg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, mae'r cynlluniau strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth mawr eisoes, ond mae'r ffaith bod nawr gyda ni gynllun sy'n edrych dros gyfnod o 10 mlynedd, dwi'n meddwl, yn rhoi gwell cyfle i ni ofyn i'r cynghorau weithio'n fwy strategol ar gyfer y tymor hir. Ac unwaith eto, roedd yr arian cyfalaf ychwanegol yna wedi ein helpu ni. Felly, rŷn ni'n hyderus, unwaith eto, ein bod ni yn y cyfeiriad cywir.

Ac mae'r ffaith bod yr arolwg cenedlaethol o'r boblogaeth, sy'n wahanol i'r cyfrifiad, yn dangos bod tua 800,000 yn siarad Cymraeg, yn dangos ein bod ni yn y cyfeiriad cywir. Nid hwnnw yw'r dangosydd rŷn ni'n ei ddefnyddio i fesur y Gymraeg, ond rŷn ni'n obeithiol, wrth weld hynny, ein bod ni yn y cyfeiriad cywir.

Well, if you do look at the milestones, then I do think that we are moving in the right direction. Some of them, for example language transmission within families—that is something that we will be doing a lot more work on this year. There will be some funding provided to that this year—£30,000—in preparing a new plan as to how we help with language transmission within families. It was a shock to me to see how few people do transfer the language within families. So, we need to do work there. There is a lot of work ongoing with Cymraeg for Kids and so on, but I do think that we are moving in the right direction there.

If you look at language use, we want to shift that from 10 per cent to 11 per cent by 2021. Once again, we are providing a lot more money into things such as Cymraeg Gwaith, because one of the problems is that we have far more children going through Welsh-medium schools, yes, but usage falls after they reach the age of 16. So, we need to provide opportunities for them to use the Welsh language. There's been investment in the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, of course, a lot more money has been provided for Cymraeg Gwaith in the past, so there are opportunities now for people to use the Welsh language, and we are confident that that is moving in the right direction.

Of course, in the long term, what's important is that we do provide funding to ensure that young children, at a very young age, do learn Welsh. And we have seen huge progress because of the additional £1 million that was provided to develop nursery education. There are already 19 such nursery schools opened. We are confident that we will reach the 40 that we hope to reach by 2021. So again, we do believe we're moving in the right direction.

And then, in terms of the number of the children educated through the medium of Welsh, the Welsh in education strategic plans have already made a difference. The fact that we now have a programme that looks over a period of 10 years, I think gives us a better opportunity to ask the councils to work more strategically in the longer term. And, once again, the additional capital funding had assisted us. So, we are confident once again that we are moving in the right direction.

And the fact that the national population survey, which is different to the census, does demonstrate that around 800,000 people speak Welsh, does show that we are moving in the right direction. That isn't the indicator that we use to measure use of the Welsh language, but we are hopeful, in seeing those figures, that we are moving in the right direction.

Ocê, diolch am hynny. Ydych chi—? Sori, ydych chi eisiau dweud rhywbeth? 

Thank you for that. Sorry, did you want to say anything?

Ocê. Rŷch chi wedi cyfeirio'n barod at, er enghraifft, yr adran addysg, ac, yn amlwg, bydd nifer fawr iawn o adrannau gwahanol—. Mae'r Gymraeg yn mynd i blethu i mewn i sawl—wel, pob—adran yn y Llywodraeth. Faint o ddylanwad sydd gennych chi o ran sut mae cyllidebau'r adrannau eraill, fel addysg—? O ran yr allocations, faint o ddylanwad sydd gennych chi? Ydych chi'n meddwl bod hynny'n ddigonol?

Okay. You've already referred, for example, to the education department, and clearly, different departments—. The Welsh language is going to dovetail with every department, indeed, of Government. How much influence do you have in terms of how the budgets of other departments, such as education—? In terms of the allocations, how much influence do you have, and is it sufficient?

So, dwi'n cwrdd â'r Gweinidog Addysg yn fisol, ac mae gyda ni agenda rŷn ni'n mynd drwyddi, felly os oes rhywbeth penodol yn dod i fyny, rŷn ni'n trafod hynny. So, rŷn ni ar yr un dudalen, a dwi'n meddwl bod yna ddealltwriaeth bod yn rhaid i ni wneud lot mwy mewn rhai meysydd. Mae'r ffaith ein bod ni wedi edrych ar y WESPs a'n bod ni wedi cael cynllun nawr ar gyfer y tymor hir yn helpu lot. Un o'r pethau sy'n fy ngofidio i a'r Gweinidog Addysg yw sut rŷn ni'n cael digon o athrawon i ddysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Mae yna nawr 10 o bwyntiau rŷn ni wedi'u rhoi mewn lle i weld beth allwn ni ei wneud i ehangu nifer yr athrawon sy'n cael eu hyfforddi drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Felly, rŷn ni'n gwneud pob math o bethau i helpu i gydweithredu. Felly, yn sicr, o ran y Gweinidog Addysg, rŷn ni'n cydweithredu'n agos iawn.

Ond nid jest y Gweinidog Addysg—un o'r pethau sy'n fy mhoeni i yw'r defnydd o'r Gymraeg yn ein cadarnleoedd ni, a sut rydyn ni'n cael pobl ifanc i beidio â gadael neu i ddod yn ôl i'n cadarnleoedd ni. Felly, dwi wedi bod yn gwneud gwaith gyda Dirprwy Weinidog yr economi i edrych ar sut allwn ni wneud mwy i sicrhau bod gwaith ar gael yn ein cadarnleoedd ni fel ein bod ni'n gallu cadw pobl sy'n medru'r Gymraeg yn yr ardaloedd yna.

I meet the education Minister on a monthly basis, and we do have an agenda that we go through, so, if there is anything specific that arises, then we discuss that. So, we're on the same page, and I think there is an understanding that we need to do a lot more in certain areas. The fact that we have looked at the WESPs and that we now have a programme for the longer term is of great assistance. One of the things concerns me and the education Minister is how we get enough teachers in place to teach through the medium of Welsh. There are now 10 points that we have put in place in order to see what we can do to expand the number of teachers who are trained through the medium of Welsh. So, we are doing all sorts of different things in collaboration. So, certainly, in terms of work with the education Minister, we are working very closely indeed.

But not just the education Minister, of course—one of the things that concerns me is the use of the Welsh language in our heartland areas, and how we encourage young people to remain in those heartlands or to return to them. So, I have been working with the Deputy Minister for the economy to consider how we can do more to ensure that there are jobs available in those areas so that we can encourage Welsh speakers to remain or to return to those areas.

10:50

Diolch am hynny. Ydych chi'n meddwl—? O ran y cydlynu sy'n digwydd rhwng yr adrannau gwahanol, neu rhyngoch chi a'r Gweinidogion gwahanol, ydych chi'n meddwl y dylai hynny fod ar fwy o footing strwythurol, neu ydy e'n barod yn broses strwythurol sy'n digwydd, neu ydy e'n digwydd mwy ar hap pan fo pethau'n codi, buasech chi'n ei ddweud?

Thank you for that. Do you think, in terms of the co-ordination that happens between the different departments, or between you and the different Ministers, that that should be done on a more structured footing, or is it already a structural process that happens, or does it happen on an ad hoc basis as things arise?

Mae'n rhaid i chi gofio bod yn rhaid i bob un sy'n datblygu polisi yn Llywodraeth Cymru nawr—mae'n rhaid iddyn nhw gydymffurfio â'r well-being of future generations Act, ac, o fewn hynny, mae'r Gymraeg yn rhan hanfodol o hynny. Felly, mi ddylai pob adran fod yn gwneud hyn mewn ffordd strwythurol, ond, wrth gwrs, un o'r pethau rŷn ni'n mynd i'w wneud yn wahanol eleni yw ein bod ni'n mynd i ddechrau Prosiect 2050, sydd yn mynd i, rŷn ni'n gobeithio, sicrhau ein bod ni'n cynllunio yn ieithyddol ar draws y Llywodraeth mewn ffordd fwy strategol. Felly, mae hynny'n newid fydd yn dod i mewn, gobeithio, gyda dechrau'r flwyddyn ariannol newydd.

Well, you have to bear in mind that anyone who develops policy within the Welsh Government has to comply with the well-being of future generations Act, and, within that, the Welsh language is a key component. So, every department should be doing this in a structured manner. But, of course, one of the things that we're going to do differently this year is that we're going to start Prosiect 2050, which, hopefully, will ensure that we provide language planning across Government in a more strategic manner. So, that is a shift that will be introduced, hopefully, at the beginning of the next financial year.

Diolch am hynny. Yn olaf gennyf i, o ran y gyllideb gyffredinol sydd gennym ni, ydych chi'n hapus bod hynny yn gweithio tuag at gyflawni'r nod sydd y tu ôl i'r strategaeth ar hyn o bryd, o ran ateb y cerrig milltir gwahanol? A ydych chi'n hapus gyda'r ffordd mae'r gyllideb yn gyffredinol yn edrych ar hynny? 

Thank you for that. Finally from me, in terms of the general budget that we have, are you content that that is working towards the aim behind the strategy at present, in terms of responding to the different milestones? Are you content with how the budget in general looks at that?

So, un o'r pethau dwi wedi eu gwneud eleni yw rili dechrau edrych ar baseline budgeting—ydyn ni'n gwneud y peth cywir o ran beth yw'n nodau ni? Mi wnes i gael cyfarfod gyda'r cyngor partneriaeth i ofyn iddyn nhw am eu barn nhw a ydyn ni'n gwario'r arian yn y llefydd cywir ar hyn o bryd. Mae hon yn broses dwi'n awyddus i sicrhau ein bod ni'n parhau â hi, ond dwi yn meddwl mai beth sy'n bwysig hefyd yw ein bod ni ddim jest yn edrych ar faint sy'n mynd mewn i'r system ond beth sy'n dod allan o'r system, ac mae hynny'n rhywbeth y mae'n rhaid inni sicrhau ein bod ni'n canolbwyntio arno hefyd.

One of the things I've done this year is to really start to look at baseline budgeting—are we doing the right things in terms of our aims and objectives? I did have a meeting with the partnership council to ask them for their views as to whether we are spending the money in the right places at the moment. This is a process, and I am eager to ensure that we continue with the process, but I also think it's important that we don't simply look at how much goes into the system but what the outcomes and the outputs are, and that is something that we must ensure that we are focused on.

A allaf jest ofyn cwestiwn ychwanegol cyflym, os yw'n iawn, o ran y cerrig milltir? Maen nhw i weld yn gynyddiadau gweddol fychan, o 10 y cant i 11 y cant o ran defnyddio'r iaith, ac wedyn o ran cadw'r cynnydd yng nghanran y dysgwyr a fydd mewn addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg o 22 y cant i 24 y cant. Oes yna sgôp i chi fod wedi gallu rhoi mwy o arian ar gyfer y cerrig milltir hynny er mwyn cyrraedd canrannau uwch yn gyflymach, neu a oeddech chi wedi gwneud asesiad mai hyn oedd yn realistig ar gyfer yr amseroedd oedd o'ch blaen chi?

Can I just ask a quick supplementary question in terms of the milestones? They appear to be relatively small increases, from 10 per cent to 11 per cent in terms of using the language, and then maintaining the increase in the percentage of learners in Welsh-medium education from 22 to 24 per cent. Is there scope for you to have allocated further funding for those milestones to achieve higher percentages more quickly, or had you undertaken an assessment that this is what was realistic in terms of the timescale in front of you?

Wel, dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni wedi dweud yn glir o'r dechrau bod y blynyddoedd cynnar yma—beth sy'n bwysig yw ein bod ni'n rhoi'r strwythurau yn eu lle fel ein bod ni'n gallu cyrraedd y nod yn y pen draw. Felly, mae cael y cynsail yn iawn wedi bod yn hanfodol, ac rŷn ni yn canolbwyntio ar hynny. Dyna pam dyw'r nod ar y dechrau, efallai, ddim cweit mor uchelgeisiol ag y byddech chi'n hoffi ei weld. Wyt ti eisiau ychwanegu at hynny? 

Well, we've made it clear from the outset that in these early years what's important is that we put the structures in place so that we can ultimately reach our targets. So, ensuring that the foundations are right has been crucial, and we have focused on that. That is why the milestones at the outset aren't quite as ambitious as you may want to see. Do you want to add anything to that?

Ie. O ran y WESPs, yn sicr, maen nhw yn realistig achos mae'n cymryd eithaf lot o amser i sefydlu ysgol newydd, achos mae'n rhaid mynd drwy'r prosesau statudol. So, efallai bod 2 y cant yn edrych yn fach, ond mae e wedi'i seilio ar un flwyddyn ysgol, sef saith oed. Felly, mae'r twf yn gannoedd o blant, felly mae hynny'n nifer o ddosbarthiadau. 

Yes, in terms of the WESPs, certainly, they are realistic because it takes a great deal of time to establish a new school, because you have to go through the statutory processes. So, perhaps 2 per cent looks relatively small, but it's based on one school year, which is age seven. So, the growth is hundreds of children, so that's a number of classes.

Ocê, jest pan ŷch chi'n edrych ar y canrannau, maen nhw'n edrych yn eithaf bach—

Okay. It's just that when you look at the percentages, they seem very small—

Mae'r canrannau'n edrych yn isel.

The percentages look low.

—felly, roeddwn i jest yn meddwl a ydy fe'n ddigon uchelgeisiol ar gyfer beth—. Ond, os ydych chi'n dweud ei fod e'n mynd i fod yn cynyddu'n flynyddol er mwyn cyrraedd y nod, wedyn byddwn yn gallu bod yn fwy hyderus bod hynny ar waith. A ydych chi'n deall beth—?

—so I was just wondering whether it is sufficiently ambitious. But, if you're telling us that it will be increasing annually in order to reach the target, then we can be more confident that that's in train. Do you understand my point?

Os ydyn ni'n mesur yn saith oed, mae'n rhaid ichi gofio bod yn rhaid ichi greu'r galw. Rŷch chi'n creu'r galw yn y blynyddoedd cynnar. Felly, mae'n anodd iawn—allem ni ddim wedi ei wneud lot yn gyflymach, achos mae'n rhaid ichi greu'r galw, a dyna pam mae'r ysgolion meithrin hyn yn hollbwysig.

If we measure at age seven, you have to remember that you have to create the demand. You create the demand in the early years. So, it's very difficult—we couldn't have done it much more quickly, because you have to generate that demand, and that's why these nursery schools are so important.

Ocê. Iawn, diolch yn fawr iawn am hynny. Symudwn ymlaen at BEL y Gymraeg—John Griffiths.

Okay. Thank you very much for that. We'll move on to the Welsh language BEL—John Griffiths.

Diolch yn fawr. Minister, in responding to a recommendation of this committee, the Welsh Government said it intended to allocate £115,000 to Prosiect 2050 in the budget for next year. Is that still the case, and, if it is, when would you expect it to be established?

10:55

So, the idea of this—as I just mentioned previously—is that we have a much more strategic approach to planning for the Welsh language across Government. So, we will appoint somebody. That process of appointment has already started. We hope to get somebody in place, as I say, by the next financial year. The idea here is that we grow the capacity of language planning within the department and that we get external experts to help us to look at international experience of what works, what doesn't work, and to test how things work well and then to adapt quickly to changes if we find them to be successful. 

The other thing is that we've been working very closely with Academi Wales to make sure that, when we're developing the future leaders of the civil service, for example, they understand that Welsh has got to be absolutely central to not only what they do but how they do it across all departments. And, again, one of the things we're doing is to make sure that, for example, in relation to the economy, that that is also central for us to think strategically about where the growth of the Welsh language is happening and making sure that, if we see the growth in the cities, we don't see a drop in those heartlands. 

Yes, okay. In terms of promoting the language, then, Minister, is there anything else you would say about a change to how you allocate or intend to allocate funding for the coming financial year?

So, I think one of the things I'm keen to do is to look at—. So, we've got the budget as a whole. If we look at how that is, what the pie graph looks like—. So, I think what is important is that we keep on focusing on early years, young—. So, we're providing that framework for the future. The language use is absolutely critical and that's why we will continue to support organisations that encourage the use of Welsh, like the Urdd, like the Eisteddfod, making sure that, for example, apprenticeships are mainstreamed as well, that we see more apprenticeships through the medium of Welsh. So, I think that, in terms of our strategic goals and where the funding is going, the key thing for me is that we now consider outcomes constantly as being the things that we focus on.

Okay. And in terms of priorities, then, Minister, your paper indicates that there will be further reductions to the National Centre for Learning Welsh and that money would then be used for other priority areas. Could you say something about the level of savings and what those priority areas are likely to be?

So, I've already had an initial discussion with the chief executive of the National Centre for Learning Welsh and I think it's really important that I underline that I think they're doing a really, really good job. What I don't want to do is to destabilise the organisation in any way at all, but I think it is important, because they take quite a big chunk of the budget, that we make sure that we probe how that money is spent and are we getting the right outcomes and are we getting enough bang for our buck, effectively. So, that's why I think that I'm keen to look at that. This was part of the budget agreement with Plaid Cymru, and I just think it's right that we just keep probing are we spending the right money in the right places.

The other concern I have is Brexit and the potential impact that Brexit could have on some of those rural communities in particular. So, I'm keen to see if we can provide some flexibility if we were able to release some funding from the National Centre for Learning Welsh to allow for us to maybe put some reinforcement in those kind of areas. 

Sure. And the in-year review that might happen in terms of Brexit and its impact, would that possibly lead to more funding being available to support the language, or is it a matter of existing budgets being reprioritised?

Well, I'm still looking at the National Centre for Learning Welsh to see exactly—. I wouldn't be looking at taking a huge amount of money away from them, but I do think what's—

11:00

No, but the more general in-year review in terms of Brexit impacts.

Yes, I think, on that, what's important is that we work constructively with the economy department, and I've already had discussions with Ken Skates and with Lee Waters about the potential impact of Brexit on those Welsh language communities. So, I'm just very, very keen to make sure that we keep an eye on that and that we work together. And that's why we've set up this round table in those rural Welsh language heartlands, working with the local authorities, to see how we can build and make sure that we build in some sustainability into the long-term future of those communities. 

Okay, a final question from me, Minister, on technology and its potential in terms of making significant savings with regard to translation costs, and your paper discussing how Welsh Government might work with other public sector organisations to develop the use of that technology. Could you tell the committee where in the draft budget there is provision to take this forward, and what sort of savings might be realised?

So, we already have an action plan for technology that is within this budget. We do like to think that we could really lead the world in this area in terms of developing a system, working maybe with the Basque Country who've done a lot of work already in this sense. If you think about how much translation is done, not just in this organisation but across organisations across the whole of Wales, with artificial intelligence now there's a huge amount that you can do in terms of getting machine translation done. There's already a group, an artificial intelligence group, that is working cross-Government to see how we can make savings, and the Welsh language must be a central part of that. So, I've already started having discussions with the finance Minister about the potential areas for savings, and we are investigating now whether in future we can use the invest-to-save pot of money in order to make savings, not just in the Welsh Government but across all of the public authorities in Wales. 

Ydy hynny'n cynnwys technoleg ar gyfer teledu, ac hefyd pethau fel Google ac Alexa? Ydy hynny yn rhan o'r holl broses dechnolegol?

With regard to technology for television, and Google and Alexa, is that part of the technological process that you're talking about?

Wel, rŷn ni eisoes yn gweithio gyda Mozilla, so mae lot o waith yn cael ei wneud gan Ganolfan Bedwyr, Prifysgol Bangor. Maen nhw'n cydweithio gyda nhw. Felly, yn amlwg, beth sy'n bwysig yw ein bod ni'n cael trafodaethau ar hyn o bryd. Mae lot o intellecutal property issues o gwmpas hyn i gyd. Beth sy'n bwysig i ni fel Llywodraeth yw ei fod e'n open access. So, mae'r trafodaethau hynny yn mynd ymlaen. 

Well, we're already working with Mozilla, so a lot of work is being done by Canolfan Bedwyr at Bangor University. They are working with them. So, clearly, what's important is that we are currently having discussions and negotiations. There are a lot of intellectual property issues around all of this. But what's important for us as Government is that it is open access. So, those discussions are ongoing. 

Achos, pan aethon ni i Wlad y Basg, fe wnaethon nhw ddweud eu bod nhw wedi datblygu lot o'r capasiti yma'n barod. Felly, yn sicr, dŷch chi wedi sôn amdanyn nhw. Ac o ran cyllidebau wedyn, dŷch chi'n rhannu lot o'r gwaith wedyn gyda Chanolfan Bedwyr er mwyn eu bod nhw yn gallu cymryd rhan o'r gwaith ymlaen hefyd, ie? Dyna sut dŷch chi'n pwyso fe. 

Because when we went to the Basque Country, they said that they'd developed a great deal of capacity in this regard already. You've talked about them, certainly. And with regard to budgets then, do you share a lot of the work with Canolfan Bedwyr, for example, so that they can take some of this work forward? Is that how you are working?

Dyna sy'n digwydd ar hyn o bryd, ond mae hwn yn faes rŷn ni eisiau gwthio arno yn y dyfodol. Mae Canolfan Bedwyr yn cydweithredu gydag Iwerddon, er enghraifft, hefyd. Cawson ni gyfarfod adeiladol gyda'r Gweinidog sydd â chyfrifoldeb iaith yng Ngweriniaeth yr Iwerddon i drafod sut efallai y gallwn ni gydweithredu yn y maes yma hefyd. 

That's what's happening at the moment, but this is an area that we want to press ahead in in the future. Canolfan Bedwyr are working with Ireland, for example. We had a meeting with the Minister with responsibility for language in the Republic of Ireland—that was very constructive—to discuss how we can collaborate in this area. 

Iawn, fe wnawn ni edrych ymlaen at gael mwy o wybodaeth am hynny, felly. BEL Comisiynydd y Gymraeg, David Melding. 

Right. Well, we'll look forward to further information on that. With regard to the Welsh Language Commissioner BEL, David Melding. 

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Minister, I think it's fair to say that this committee, over the last couple of years, has been quite concerned by the position that the Welsh commissioner's office was in. Now, obviously, we've got a new commissioner. And this is not a criticism of the old commissioner, there was a rational choice; but basically they were sustaining their level of functions and range of responsibilities by drawing on reserves, and this was not an equilibrium position. Indeed, she did indicate that it could not go on.

So, I just wonder what sort of discussions have you had with the new commissioner about the financial position, in terms of the need to get to an equilibrium position and a realistic assessment of the costs of various functions and whether that wide range can continue. And there were issues about the number of cases around standards, the legal costs and the degree of promotional work that was realistic as well. Because your budget settlement is—I was trying to work out a percentage increase, it's about 1.5 per cent, I think, in terms of the revenue. So, obviously, that's not changed fundamentally. So, where are we in terms of the stability of that office in terms of its budgeting?

11:05

So, we have managed to give them an extra £50,000 to help with some of the issues around salaries this year, pensions—I think that's right, isn't it? And then, we have also, critically, given them some significant capital expenditure, so they've had about £385,000 to upgrade their IT systems. What we're hoping is that that will release some time and some capacity for them; that they won't have to spend quite so much time travelling if they can develop video-conferencing and things like that, because they are dotted around the whole of Wales.

The other thing we've done is to work with the commissioner, and we have regular quarterly meetings, and obviously we do discuss the budget needs of the commissioner. One of the things we've tried to do is to rationalise and to make sure everybody knows whose responsibility is what. So, we now have a memorandum of understanding between us and the commissioner, just making absolutely clear who is responsible for what, because I think there is potential for duplication, which has happened in the past, and so it makes sense for us to co-operate.

So, if you just think about how you enhance the use of Welsh in some of those areas where they have standards, they have issues where they have to be driving the standards within an organisation, we can maybe help along with that, so that it's clear that some of the responsibility is about policing, but the other part is also about enhancing and encouraging the use. And we are trying to make much better connections and work, not just with us, but with other organisations across Wales, to make sure that everyone understands who leads in that particular area on the language, so that we don't get that duplication. So, that should lead to savings as well for the commissioner.

In these discussions, did the Welsh Language Commissioner ask for more in terms of the revenue settlement, or has he got what he asked for, basically?

Well, I think everybody asks for more, don't they? We have given him—. In terms of capital, I think that's been very significant, and that was his main request, so we're very pleased that we've been able to adhere to that.

If I move, then, on to the capital allocation of £385,000, obviously—and you've indicated—it's meant to have a fundamental effect on the efficiency of the activities. Most of it is around IT upgrades—I have to say, this takes me into areas that stretch my competence—a cloud-based model, upgrading the Wi-Fi system and hardware to build resilience. But, obviously, these IT programmes sometimes go wrong, so what sort of monitoring will we have in place to ensure that this substantial amount, in terms of their operation, is used to best effect?

I think, first of all, it's worth emphasising that their system is pretty old. They're using the same system as what they used under the Welsh Language Board, so that's quite a few years ago. We will, of course, monitor how they spend this money. We've got some experts that can help them with that, and I think that's the kind of way that the Welsh Government can help. We've been through procurement and things within Government, so we have some expertise, so we can hold their hand through some of that process, and obviously we'll be monitoring that as we go along. We even have some experts within our department, don't we? 

Yes. So, we've obviously worked with them to consult on their needs, and we've had, as the Minister said, our experts go in to make sure that we meet their future business needs.

And then in terms of their day-to-day operations and reducing their carbon footprint—and I think you've indicated that that was part of the rationale for capital increase—are there different ways they may be working that we will see? What might they be?

11:10

I think what's important is that the commissioner is independent and he decides how he's going to manage his office. We can obviously encourage him to do more remote working or whatever, but ultimately the commissioner is independent, and I think it's absolutely right that we allow him to determine how he uses that system in the long term.

So, when requesting this capital increase, you surely indicated where the carbon footprint could potentially be reduced, I presume. Was that in the business case?

It's mostly around travel; the reduction in travel for his members of staff who travel quite extensively around the country. If you can do more of that on video-conferencing, the technology is there now to do that, that will save a considerable amount of time and carbon emissions, obviously.

Jest un cwestiwn bach clou ar y comisiynydd, a oes yna unrhyw gynlluniau i roi unrhyw fuddsoddiad ychwanegol ar gyfer cynlluniau penodol o fewn y flwyddyn dŷch chi'n rhagweld, neu ai hon yw'r gyllideb derfynol dŷch chi'n gweld sydd yn mynd i fynd at y comisiynydd? Er enghraifft, fel sydd wedi digwydd gyda'r WESPs yn y gorffennol, mae yna arian ychwanegol wedi cael ei roi ar gyfer rhyw fath o gynllun penodol. A fydd hynny'n rhywbeth y byddwch chi'n—?

Just one quick question on the commissioner. Are there any plans to provide any additional funding for specific schemes within the year that you foresee, or is this the final budget that you see going to the commissioner? For example, this has happened with the WESPs in the past—additional funding has been provided for some sort of specific scheme. Is that something that you would foresee?

Does dim cynlluniau gyda ni ar hyn o bryd. Yn amlwg, os daw cyllid ychwanegol o Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig yn gyffredinol, fe wnawn ni 'pitch-o' amdano fe ac fe wnawn ni edrych a oes meysydd. Ond, yn amlwg, byddai'n rhaid inni weld sut mae hwnna'n cyd-fynd â'n strategaeth ar y cyfan o ran cyrraedd y nod dŷn ni eisiau ei gyrraedd.

We have no plans at present. Clearly, if additional funding is made available from the UK Government, we will pitch for that funding and we will consider where there any areas that we should look at. But clearly we will have to consider how that will run in accordance with our more general strategy in terms of reaching our targets.

Just a couple of questions around the Welsh in education funding. You've covered one area, which is about the new early learning groups, and obviously the aspiration is the creation of 40, and that's being budgeted for. I think you indicated that there were 19 or so that were now in place, so just for the record, you're confident then that by 2021 all 40 will be established, and that those targets will be achieved?

Yes, we're fairly confident that that will happen. The challenge for us is to make sure that there are enough teachers available for that, but we've put lots and lots of projects in place to make sure that that can happen. So, the ysgolion meithrin themselves have their own programme, and the centre for language learning have also developed an online programme to help people that has specifically been designed to help people who want to teach in this area, and Cwlwm I think is the other one. So, there are lots and lots of training opportunities, and I think the Urdd also has a programme to try and encourage people into apprenticeships and to get more people working in this space. So, you can't just produce 40 new without understanding that there is a need to develop the workforce. But that, I'm confident, is also now in place.

So, you're confident that the numbers will be there. It's obviously a challenge, and measures are in place to do that, but you obviously wouldn't be confident about completing the 40 unless you were confident that those new teachers will come through the system.

Just to add, on top of the 19 Cylchoedd there are 43 Cylchoedd Ti a Fi, which are the precursors to the Cylchoedd Meithrin because they target age two. And if you look at the annual report from Mudiad Meithrin this year, 234 new practitioners have completed the course, and 142 through the academy. So there is a focus and there is a strategic plan so that all the parts of the jigsaw fit into place. And of course if you look beyond that, in the Cymraeg i Blant and the transmission programme, the encouragement to provide or to persuade people to send children to Welsh-medium education starts before the child is born.

That takes me on then, obviously, to following the trail of money of the £1.65 million, I think, that's taken out of the Welsh language expenditure line to support Cymraeg 2050. You're confident then that that money is going to be used specifically for what you want it to be used, and that is the training.

Absolutely, yes. We've got this sabbatical programme, and some of it covers a year, but there are other much shorter periods where people can upgrade their language and make sure that they are able to use the kind of language that is necessary to teach a certain age group. So, we're confident that the transfer of funding from one education budget line will be transferred into the training budget line, but that that is earmarked specifically for the Welsh language.

11:15

It's like a sort of house of cards, isn't it, really? If you take one card out, the whole system falls down, doesn't it? You've got to have the resources in, you've got to have the teachers in, you've got to have the flow through, you can't not open the school year, et cetera. So, the whole thing is very dialectically interlinked, isn't it?

I think that's right and I think the other thing that is worth pointing out is that I think it's something like 32,000 adults who are going through the youngest age group and it's really key to get those parents of very young children, because there's almost an automatic follow-on there then to Welsh language schools. So, it's catching them at this very, very young age and encouraging people. Because we're still in a position where—you know, we're not forcing people into Welsh language education, it's a demand, but you've got to make sure that you provide an opportunity to feed that demand. 

And then just perhaps one further question on the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol: the obviously increased responsibilities there in terms of objectives with regard to post-16 education, for education and training and so on, is very resource-driven. So, I wonder if you could perhaps outline how the budget is going to satisfy the additional responsibilities that they're going to have within that area. 

You'll be aware that the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol expanded its responsibilities beyond higher education to include further education. I think that was really important and significant. So, there's been a significant amount of money, about £280,000, spent on trying to encourage ambassadors on behalf of the Welsh language post-16 group. So, that was launched in the Eisteddfod this year, and what that's trying to do is to make sure that people have an understanding, and you get young people to be the ambassadors, to speak to other young people, and I think that's the way that we can really encourage this age group to make sure that they undertake more of their education through the medium of Welsh. It doesn't have to be entirely through the medium of Welsh, it can be certain modules. But also something I'm keen to see is to make sure people understand that it doesn't have to be about formal education. It's the use of language that I'm interested in, and that includes the social use of language, which I think is as important as any formal speaking opportunities within the classroom.

Yes, so you can force numbers but you can't force usage, can you?

Exactly. And this is the really delicate, sensitive thing with language: you cannot force a language on people. People have to come to this, and you can encourage, you can put people—you can take the horse to water, but, you know—? I know: I went to a Welsh language school and the language on the school yard was English. It's really, really difficult to change attitudes and it's a very sensitive and difficult issue. You can't force people to do it, and that's why we've got to bring people with us, and getting young people to encourage other young people I think is a really good way forward.

Un cwestiwn clou ynglŷn ag addysg bellach. Dŷn ni ar ddeall bod yna £14 miliwn ychwanegol wedi mynd i addysg bellach yn gyffredinol. Dwi ddim yn clywed gennych chi faint o'r arian hynny sydd yn mynd yn benodol at addysg Gymraeg o ran prentisiaethau ac yn y blaen. Allwch chi roi rhyw fath o syniad i ni, o'r ychwanegiad cyffredinol i addysg bellach, faint sydd yn mynd i fynd at y Gymraeg?

Just one quick question in terms of further education. We understand that there is an additional £14 million that's been allocated to further education in general. I'm not hearing from you how much of that funding is going specifically towards Welsh-medium education in terms of apprenticeships and so on. Could you give us some kind of idea of that general addition to further education? How much is going to go towards the Welsh language?

Wel, bydd rhaid i fi ddod nôl atoch chi gyda ffigurau penodol achos dyw hwnna ddim tu mewn i fy ambit i, ond dŷn ni wedi bod yn gwthio bod lot mwy o brentisiaethau, er enghraifft, yn cael eu cynnal trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Mae'r cynnydd yna'n dod, ond dyw e ddim mor gyflym ag yr hoffem ni ei weld. 

Well, I'll have to get back to you with specific figures because that isn't within my ambit, but what we have been pushing for is that far more apprenticeships, for example, are provided through the medium of Welsh. That increase is coming, but it's not happening as quickly as we would want.

Ac oes yna ffigurau byrdymor y gallem ni eu gweld fel pwyllgor er mwyn gweld rhyw fath o gynnydd?

And are there short-term figures that we could see as a committee to see some kind of progress?

Gallwn ni anfon rheini atoch chi.

We'll send those to you.

Ocê, iawn. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Ac i orffen, Carwyn Jones. 

Okay, thank you. And just to finish, Carwyn Jones. 

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Bore da. Allaf i ofyn un cwestiwn sy’n dilyn o beth y gofynnodd Mick fanna, sef—a dwi’n hollol gytûn â hyn—dyw hi ddim yn bosibl i fynnu bod pobl yn siarad unrhyw iaith, mae'n rhaid eu perswadio nhw? Pa fath o enghreifftiau ydyn ni’n edrych arnyn nhw o wledydd eraill yn y byd? A oes yna, er enghraifft, gyllideb ynglŷn ag ymchwilio—cyllideb ymchwil?

Rŷn ni’n sôn lot am Wlad y Basg, rŷn ni’n sôn am Gatalonia ac yn sôn weithiau am Iwerddon, ond mae yna wledydd eraill fel, er enghraifft, Gwlad yr Iâ, lle mae’r wlad yn weriniaeth, yn annibynnol, a gyda llai o siaradwyr eu hiaith frodorol nhw na Chymraeg ac mae yna bwysau arnyn nhw hefyd, mewn cymdeithas lle mae bron pawb yn siarad dwy iaith, ac un o’r rheini’n Saesneg, ac mae yna dueddiad, rwy’n deall, yn y wlad honno, i bobl ifanc ddefnyddio Saesneg yn lle—a does dim gair yn Gymraeg am 'Icelandic', so 'Islandeg'. A oes unrhyw feddwl wedi cael ei roi, neu unrhyw ystyriaeth wedi cael ei roi, i greu rhyw fath o gronfa ymchwil, neu, os na, ryw ffordd i astudio, efallai, gwledydd dŷn ni ddim wedi eu hystyried o’r blaen, o achos y ffaith ein bod ni wastad yn meddwl eu bod nhw'n rheoli eu hunain ac felly does dim pwysau ar eu hieithoedd nhw? Ond nid felly yw'r dystiolaeth o Wlad yr Iâ a hefyd, rwy’n deall, mewn gwledydd fel Norwy, lle mae yna dueddiad i droi i'r Saesneg, nid dim ond ynglŷn â’r cyfryngau cymdeithasol, ond hefyd ynglŷn â defnyddio’r Saesneg bob dydd a mynd i mewn i beth maen nhw'n ei alw yn Saesneg yn code-switching—nôl ag ymlaen o un iaith i’r llall.

Thank you, Chair. Good morning. Can I ask a question that follows on from what Mick asked there, which is—and I agree—that it’s not possible to demand that people speak a particular language, you have to persuade them? So, what kind of examples are we looking at from other countries worldwide? For example, is there a budget with regard to research?

We talk a lot about the Basque Country, we talk about Catalonia, we talk sometimes about Ireland, but there are other nations, such as Iceland, where the country is a republic, it is independent, and has fewer speakers of their native language than the Welsh language, and there is pressure on them as well, in a society where people speak two languages, and one of those is English, there is a tendency for the young people in that nation to speak English instead of Icelandic. Has any thought been given, or any consideration given, to creating some kind of research fund or some other way to study nations that we haven't considered studying, before because we think they control themselves so there's no pressure on their language, because that's not the evidence that emanates from Iceland and, I understand, countries such as Norway, where there's a tendency to turn to English as well, not just in terms of social media but in terms of using the English language on a daily basis? It’s called code-switching—going between languages.

11:20

Dwi ddim wedi clywed am yr enghraifft am Wlad yr Iâ, felly mae'n werth inni edrych ar hynny. Dwi'n meddwl bod y ffaith ein bod ni wedi cael blwyddyn ryngwladol ieithoedd brodorol UNESCO y llynedd, a'n bod ni wedi cael gŵyl fawr yn Aberystwyth i sicrhau ein bod ni’n dathlu hynny, yn gyfle i ddysgu o'n gilydd. Mae gan Bethan, dwi'n gwybod, lot o ddiddordeb yn y maes yma ac wedi bod yn cydweithredu lot, yn arbennig gyda Gwlad y Basg, Catalwnia a'r gwledydd yna. Dwi ddim yn siŵr a fyddet ti’n fodlon dweud ychydig yn fwy ar y maes yma.

I wasn’t aware of the example of Iceland, so it is worthwhile looking at that. I think the fact that we have had the UNESCO year of indigenous languages last year, where there was a major festival in Aberystwyth to celebrate that, means there is an opportunity, therefore, to learn from each other. I know Bethan is very interested in this area. She has been working very closely particularly with the Basque Country, Catalunya and certain other nations. I don’t know if you could say a few words about this.

Iawn. Newid ymddygiad ydy be dŷn ni angen ei wneud, mewn ffordd. Dydy marchnata ar ei ben ei hun ddim yn gweithio o ran iaith. Dŷn ni wedi bod yn gweithio'n glòs efo Gwlad y Basg. Mae gennym ni raglen o’r enw ARFer, ynghlwm â Phrifysgol Bangor, ar gyfer newid ymddygiad iaith mewn gweithleoedd, ac mae gan Wlad y Basg raglen o'r enw Euskaraldia, a beth mae Euskaraldia yn ei wneud ydy, unwaith y flwyddyn—. Mae yna ryw ymchwil rhyngwladol yn dweud os ydych chi'n gwneud rhywbeth am 11 diwrnod, mae'r arfer yn dechrau gwreiddio. Felly, beth wnaethon nhw eleni, a dŷn ni wedi edrych ar y gwerthusiad o Wlad y Basg, oedd bod ganddyn nhw fathodynau, fel sydd gennym ni, y siaradwyr, ond hefyd mae ganddyn nhw fathodynau clust ar gyfer siaradwyr goddefol, ac wedyn maen nhw'n seinio contract ac, am 11 diwrnod, mae pawb yn ymrwymo i siarad Basgeg neu i siarad Basgeg hyd at eu gallu nhw, os ydyn nhw'n siaradwyr goddefol. Mae'r patrwm yna, wedyn, i fod i arddel mwy o ddefnydd iaith.

Dwi'n meddwl, o'r gwerthusiad dwi wedi ei weld, cafwyd 5 y cant o gynnydd o ran defnydd iaith yn y grwpiau a wnaeth ymwneud ag Euskaraldia. Maen nhw rŵan yn mynd i drio gwneud Euskaraldia yng Ngwlad y Basg—achos jest efo oedolion maen nhw wedi ei wneud o—efo pobl ifanc yn ardal Donostia, yn Lasarte, dwi'n meddwl, jest y tu allan i Donostia. Felly, dŷn ni'n mynd i wneud rhywbeth tebyg rŵan. So, edrych ar gynsail Euskaraldia, ond ei wneud o fesul sector, felly gwneud rhaglen efo pobl ifanc. Mae menter iaith Caerffili a menter iaith Bro Dinefwr yn gwneud rhywbeth tebyg hefyd efo pobl ifanc, ar sail Euskaraldia, jest i weld a oes rhywbeth yn hyn, ond dŷn ni ddim wedi arddel yr 11 diwrnod. Mae'n rhaglenni ni yn tueddu i fod drwy gydol y flwyddyn. Felly, mae yna lot o rannu. 

Dŷn ni'n gweithio'n agos efo Friesland ac efo'r Ffindir a gwledydd Sgandinafia, achos ieithoedd llai ydyn nhw, ond mae'r poblogaethau'n fach, ac mae gennym ni debygrwydd achos bod y Saesneg yn amlwg, yn enwedig ar yr ochr ddigidol, gyda theledu ac yn y blaen, a cherddoriaeth, yn dylanwadu. Dyna pam, wrth gwrs, o ran Dydd Miwsig Cymru, y mae hynny mor bwysig o ran hunaniaeth. A mwy a mwy, dwi'n meddwl, mae pobl yn mynd yn ôl—fel maen nhw'n mynd yn ôl at eu siop leol, maen nhw'n mynd yn ôl at gerddoriaeth wreiddiol. Mae yna rywbeth llawer mwy cŵl am ganu yn yr iaith wreiddiol rŵan. Felly, mae yna lot o gydlynu'n digwydd. 

O ran arferion iaith hefyd, rwy'n gwybod bod yr Urdd yn mynd i wneud project efo TG Lurgan y flwyddyn nesaf, o ran y gwersylloedd, a gweld i ba raddau mae'r gwersylloedd yna'n gallu hybu a chreu rhyw fath o fwrlwm ieithyddol yn ystod gwyliau'r haf, achos, wrth gwrs, mae rhai, yn enwedig plant cynradd ac efallai rhai plant uwchradd, sydd ddim yn clywed yr iaith yn ystod gwyliau'r haf, ac mae'r pethau yma yn hollbwysig.

So, mae yna lot o bethau ar y gweill, ond fe allwn ni rannu beth bynnag sydd o ddiddordeb i chi, neu os ydych chi eisiau cyfarfod, un-wrth-un, yn ehangach, buasem ni'n fodlon iawn gwneud hynny. 

Yes. It's about changing behaviour. Marketing, on its own, doesn't work in terms of language. We have been working very closely with the Basque Country. We have a programme called ARFer, linked with Bangor University, in terms of changing behaviour with regard to the language, and the Basque Country has its own programme called Euskaraldia. And, once a year—. International research has shown that, if you do something for 11 days, then the practice starts to take root. So, what they did this year, and we've seen the evaluation in the Basque Country, is that they have badges, like the ones that we have, as speakers of the language, but they also have ear-shaped badges and then they sign a contract and, for 11 days, one makes a commitment to speak the Basque language, or to the extent of their ability. And then that pattern leads, or is supposed to lead, to more use of the language.

From the evaluation that I've seen, there's been a 5 per cent increase in the use of language amongst the groups that engaged with the programme. So, they are now going to develop Euskaraldia in the Basque Country from working just with adults to working also with young people in Donostia—in Lasarte, I think it is, just outside Donostia. So, we're going to do something similar now, and we're going to look at the precedent set out by Euskaraldia, but also do it according to sector, so with a programme of young people. The mentrau iaith in Caerphilly and in Dinefwr are going to do something similar with young people, on the basis of the Euskaraldia programme, to see whether there's something in this—but not the 11 days, as our programmes tend to happen throughout the year, rather than 11 days. So, there is a lot of sharing.

We work very closely with Friesland, with Finland and the Scandinavian nations, because they're smaller languages but the populations are small. We do have similarities, because the English language is very prominent, especially in terms of the digital side of things, television and so on, and music, and it's the English language that has the influence there. So, that's why Dydd Miwsig Cymru, the Welsh Language Music Day, is so important in terms of identity. And I think, increasingly, young people, in the same way that they return to their local shops, they're going back to their local music as well. They sing in their indigenous languages now, which is seen as cool now. So, there's a lot of co-ordination happening. 

In terms of language practices as well, I know that the Urdd is going to undertake a project with TG Lurgan next year, in terms of their camps and in terms of how those camps can promote and generate this kind of excitement around the Welsh language. There are primary schoolchildren and also secondary schoolchildren who don't hear the language in the summer recess, and so these summer schools are so important.

So, there are lots of things under way, and we can share whatever is of interest with you, or if you want to meet, one-to-one, to discuss these issues further, then I'm more than happy to do so. 

11:25

Diolch. Pedwar cwestiwn sydd gyda fi—dwi'n gweld yr amser, felly byddaf i'n fyr, Gadeirydd. Ynglŷn â'r astudiaethau gwerth am arian rŷch chi wedi eu nodi yn y papur, pa fath o ddylanwad ydyn nhw wedi eu cael ar y gyllideb ei hunan, y gyllideb ddrafft, ac a oedd unrhyw newid i'r cynigion gwreiddiol wrth ystyried canlyniadau'r astudiaethau hynny?

Thank you. I have four questions—I do see the time is against us, so I will be brief, Chair. In terms of the value-for-money studies that you've included in the paper, what kind of influence have these had on the draft budget itself, and was there any change to the original proposals in considering the outcomes of those value-for-money studies?

Un peth y gwnes i, fel roeddwn i'n dweud, oedd mynd at y panel ymgynghori ar y Gymraeg a gofyn a ydyn ni'n gwneud pethau yn y ffordd gywir, o ran y ffordd rŷn ni'n ariannu a beth rŷn ni'n ei ariannu. Felly, mae'r gwerthuso yna wedi digwydd, a dyna pam dwi'n dweud fy mod i eisiau gweld mwy o fanylder o ran nid jest beth yw'r inputs, ond beth yw'r outputs sy'n dod o beth rŷn ni'n ei roi a ble rŷn ni'n rhoi'r arian. Felly, mae'r gwerthuso yna, dwi'n meddwl, wedi dechrau. Mae'r gwerthuso o ran proses yn digwydd yn awtomatig, dwi'n meddwl, achos mae yna brosesau yn eu lle i sicrhau bod y pethau hynny yn digwydd. Ond beth sy'n bwysig yw ein bod ni wedi edrych ar beth yw'r blaenoriaethau ac a ydy'r gyllideb yn cyd-fynd â'r blaenoriaethau.

One of the things that I did, as I said, was to go to the consultative panel on the Welsh language to ask whether we're doing things in the right way, in terms of the way that we fund projects and what we fund. So, that evaluation work has been done, and that's why I say that I want to see more detail, not just in terms of what the input is but what the output is from the funding that we allocate. So, that evaluation has, I think, started. The process evaluation is happening automatically, I think, because there are processes in place to ensure that those things do happen. But what's important is that we have looked at what the priorities are and whether the funding corresponds with those priorities.

Ocê. Yr ail gwestiwn, felly, ar werth am arian yw hwn: Glan Llyn a Llangrannog—roedd yna ddyraniad cyfalaf i'r Urdd er mwyn gwella'r cyfleusterau oedd yna. Beth sydd wedi digwydd yna? Pa fath o gynnydd sydd wedi bod ynglŷn â symud y prosiectau hyn ymlaen? A pha ganlyniadau ydych chi'n erfyn eu gweld yn tyfu mas o'r buddsoddiad ei hunan?

Okay. The second question on value for money is this: in terms of Glan Llyn and Llangrannog, there was a capital allocation to the Urdd to improve the facilities available there. What's happened there? What progress has been made in moving these projects forward? And what outcomes would you expect from that particular investment?

Wel, mae'r gwersylloedd hyn yn eithaf hen erbyn hyn, felly roedd, yn amlwg, angen buddsoddiad ynddyn nhw. Mae'n rhaid ichi gofio bod plant ledled Cymru yn mynd i'r canolfannau yma ac, i rai ohonyn nhw, dyma'r unig gysylltiad â'r Gymraeg maen nhw'n ei gael. Felly, dwi yn meddwl ei bod hi'n bwysig eu bod nhw'n cael profiad rili positif yn y mannau hyn a'i fod yn rhywbeth y tu fas i'r ysgol. A'r un peth i blant sy'n mynychu ysgolion Cymraeg: dyma'r unig amser, ambell waith, y tu fas i'r ysgol maen nhw'n gallu byw yn gymdeithasol trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.

Mae'r gwaith wedi dechrau eisoes yn y gwersylloedd, ac rŷn ni'n gobeithio y bydd y gwaith wedi ei orffen erbyn yr haf. I fi, beth sy'n bwysig yw ein bod ni'n dod yn ôl at y pwynt yma o sut rŷch chi'n cael pobl i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg heb eich bod chi'n ei orfodi e. O fy rhan i, fe wnes i ddechrau siarad Cymraeg yn gymdeithasol achos gwnes i ddechrau gwrando ar fiwsig pop Cymraeg. Fe wnaeth fy mrodyr i ddim, a dydyn nhw ddim yn siarad Cymraeg yn yr un ffordd â fi, er ein bod ni'n dod o deulu Cymraeg. Felly, mae'r pethau bach yma yn gwneud gwahaniaeth mawr i ddefnydd y Gymraeg, a dwi yn meddwl bod Llangrannog a Glan Llyn yn rhan hanfodol o'r jig-so yna.

Well, these camps are quite old now, so there was a clear need to invest in them. But you have to remember that there are children across Wales who go to these camps and, for some of them, this is the only contact with the Welsh language that they have. So, I think it is important that they have a really positive experience in these locations and that it's outside of school. And also for children who attend Welsh-medium schools, this is the only time, sometimes, outside of the school, where they can live socially through the medium of Welsh.

The work has started already in the camps, and we hope that the work will have been completed by the summer. But for me, what's important is that we come back to this point about how you get people to use the Welsh language without forcing them to do so. And from my point of view, I started speaking Welsh socially because I started listening to pop music in the medium of Welsh. My brothers didn't and they don't speak the Welsh language in the same way that I do, even though we come from a Welsh-speaking family. So, these little things make a huge difference to the use of the Welsh language, and I think that Llangrannog and Glan Llyn are a vital part of that jigsaw.

A dwi'n meddwl hefyd fod yr Urdd wedi bod yn arloesol iawn eleni, felly oherwydd ein bod ni wedi buddsoddi fel Llywodraeth yn y canolfannau yma, maen nhw hefyd wedi dweud, 'Beth fedrwn ni ei wneud yn ehangach i chi?' Felly, mae yna raglen tlodi plant wedi cael ei chreu. Cafodd 100 o blant fyddai ddim wedi gallu mynd i'r gwersylloedd fynd yna dros yr haf, a rhai ohonon nhw'n gweld yr arfordir a glan y môr am y tro cyntaf. Ac mae yna straeon sydd wir wedi cyffwrdd â'r staff ac wedi cyffwrdd â lot o bobl, felly maen nhw'n anelu at gael 200 o blant y flwyddyn nesaf. Felly, oherwydd y buddsoddiad, maen nhw'n gwneud llawer iawn mwy o ddefnydd o'r gwersylloedd yma dros yr haf. 

Maen nhw hefyd wedi creu perthynas newydd efo Llamau. Maen nhw'n mynd i greu Pentre Ifan yn sir Benfro ar gyfer plant ôl-16, a fydd yn rhyw fath o digital detox. Yn y berthynas â Llamau, beth maen nhw'n ei wneud ydy, os oes yna lefydd gweigion yn digwydd bod yn Glan Llyn ar gyfer y to hŷn, maen nhw'n mynd i wahodd plant digartref hŷn i fynd i'r gwersylloedd, achos dydy hi ddim yn costio dim mwy. Mae'r staff yna ac mae'r llefydd yna.

Maen nhw hefyd yn mynd i greu penwythnos i godi hyder rhai o'r bobl ifanc yma, fel eu bod nhw'n gweld gwerth dim jest yn y dirwedd a'r hunaniaeth ac yn y blaen, ond hefyd fod y Gymraeg yn cael ei gweld fel rhywbeth naturiol, a bod y plant sy'n mynychu Glan Llyn yn gweld yr Urdd yn fwy na jest gwneud rhywbeth yn Gymraeg, ei fod e'n golygu llawer iawn mwy na hynny. 

And I also think that the Urdd have been very innovative this year, and so because we as a Government have invested in these centres, they've also asked us, 'What can we do on a broader level for you?' So, a child-poverty programme has been drawn up and 100 children who wouldn't have been able to attend the camps were able to do so over the summer months, and some of them saw the coastline and our beaches for the first time. And there are some truly heart-rending stories that have touched the staff and many other people, so they're aiming to get 200 children next year. So, because of that investment, they are doing far more in terms of using these camps over the summer months. 

They've also created a new relationship with Llamau. They're going to create Pentre Ifan in Pembrokeshire for the post-16 cohort, so there will be some sort of digital detox available there. And in terms of their relationship with Llamau, what they are doing is that, if they do have vacancies in Glan Llyn for the older cohort, they're going to invite older homeless children to go to those camps, because it won't cost them anything, because the staff are in place and the vacancies are there.

They're also going to stage weekends to raise the confidence of some of these young people, so they see the value not just of the landscape and identity and so on, but also that the Welsh language is seen as something that is natural, and that those children who go to Glan Llyn see the Urdd as being more than just doing something through the medium of Welsh, that it means far, far more than that. 

11:30

Dau gwestiwn sydd gen i ar ôl. Y Ddeddf Llesiant Cenedlaethau'r Dyfodol (Cymru) 2015: pa fath o effaith gafodd y ddeddfwriaeth honno ar y broses o ddyrannu arian y gyllideb ei hunan?

Two questions remain from me. With regard to the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, what kind of impact did that legislation have on the process of allocating funding in the budget itself?

Wel, mae'n rhaid ichi gofio fod y Gymraeg yn rhan hanfodol o'r Ddeddf yna, ac felly roedd hynny'n amlwg ddim jest wedi effeithio arnon ni, ond wedi effeithio ar bob adran ar draws y Llywodraeth. Felly, pan roedden nhw'n ystyried eu cyllidebau nhw, roedd e'n bwysig eu bod nhw'n ystyried sut fyddai'r Gymraeg yn effeithio ar eu hadrannau nhw a sut ddylanwad fyddai hynny'n cael. Felly, os yw'r broses yn gweithio'n iawn, mi ddylai fod y Gymraeg wedi bod yn rhan nid jest o'n hadran ni ond ar draws y Llywodraeth yn gyffredinol. 

Well, you must bear in mind that the Welsh language is a central part of that legislation, so clearly that didn't just impact upon us, but on all departments across Government. So, when they were considering their budgets, it was important that they took account of how the Welsh language would impact on their areas and what influence that would have. So, if the process is working correctly, then the Welsh language should have been a consideration not just in our department but across Government. 

A'r diwethaf, felly: mae yna asesiad effaith integredig wedi cael ei wneud ar y gyllideb ddrafft. Dau baragraff sydd ynglŷn â'r Gymraeg. A ydy hynny'n ddigon? Achos mae'n rhaid inni sicrhau bod hwn yn cael ei hystyried fel rhywbeth sydd o ddifrif ac nid bocs i'w dicio. A ydy hynny wir yn ddigon, ŷch chi'n credu, ynglŷn â sicrhau bod y gyllideb ddrafft wedi cael ei hystyried yn gyfan gwbl ynglŷn â'r effaith ar yr iaith?

And finally from me: there is a strategic integrated impact assessment that's taken on the draft budget. There are only two paragraphs there with regard to the Welsh language. Is that sufficient? Because we have to ensure that this is considered as something that is taken seriously and not just a box to be ticked? Is that sufficient, do you believe, in terms of ensuring that the draft budget has given full consideration to the Welsh language?

Wel, dwi wastad yn meddwl ei fod e'n od i gyfrif sawl gwaith mae pobl yn sôn am rywbeth mewn dogfen. Os ydyn nhw'n sôn amdano fe, maen nhw'n sôn amdano fe. Os ydych chi'n sôn amdano fe saith o weithiau, a ydy e'n golygu mwy nag os ydych chi'n sôn amdano fe unwaith? Dwi yn meddwl bod hynny'n ffordd od o asesu pwysigrwydd unrhyw fath o bwnc mewn dogfen. Ond, y peth pwysicaf i'w gofio yw bod 'Prosperity for All', sef y peth sy'n gyrru'r gyllideb yn ei chyfanrwydd, hefyd wedi cael ei sylfaenu ar y Ddeddf llesiant cenedlaethau'r dyfodol, lle mae'r Gymraeg yn gynsail i hynny. Felly, dwi'n hyderus bod y systemau yn eu lle i sicrhau ei bod hi'n rhan ohoni, a dwi ddim yn meddwl y dylem ni gyfrif faint o weithiau mae'n dweud y gair 'Cymraeg'. 

Well, I always think it's strange to count the number of references to a particular thing in a document. If you mention it, it's mentioned. If you mention it seven times, does it mean more than if you mention it just once? I think that's an odd way of assessing the import of any topic covered in any document. The most important thing to bear in mind is that 'Prosperity for All', which drives the budget in its entirety, is also based on the well-being of future generations Act, where the Welsh language is central. So, I am confident that the systems are in place to ensure that the Welsh language is part of all of this, and I don't think that we should count the number of references to the Welsh language in any document.  

Iawn. Diolch. Dyna'r oll sydd gyda ni o ran amser, ond efallai y bydd yna gwestiynau ychwanegol, a byddwn ni'n ysgrifennu atoch chi, os yw hynny'n iawn. Diolch yn fawr ichi am ddod atom heddiw. Diolch. 

Thank you very much. That's all from us in terms of the time available to us, but perhaps we'll have additional questions and we'll write to you, if that's okay. Thank you very much to you for joining us today. 

4. Papurau i'w nodi
4. Paper(s) to note

Rydyn ni'n symud ymlaen, felly, at eitem 4, sef papurau i'w nodi. Mae yna nifer o bapurau: ymateb Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru i adroddiad 'Minnau hefyd!'; wedyn gwybodaeth bellach gan ITV yn dilyn sesiwn craffu; wedyn ymateb Llywodraeth Cymru i'r adroddiad ar radio cymunedol yng Nghymru; ac ymateb Llywodraeth Cymru i'r adroddiad 'Minnau hefyd! Rôl y celfyddydau a diwylliant wrth fynd i'r afael â thlodi ac allgáu cymdeithasol'. A oes gan unrhyw un rywbeth i'w ddweud ar y papurau hynny? Na.

We move on, therefore, to item 4, which is papers to note. There are a number of papers: the Arts Council of Wales's response to the 'Count me in!' report; then further information from ITV following our scrutiny session; also a Welsh Government response to the community radio in Wales report; and finally a Welsh Government response to that 'Count me in! Tackling poverty and social exclusion through culture, heritage and the arts' report. Does anybody have any comments on those papers? No.

Penodi Cadeirydd Dros Dro
Appointment of a Temporary Chair

Felly, hoffwn i symud cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.22, rwy'n credu, i ethol Cadeirydd dros dro yn y cyfarfod nesaf. Dwi'n cynnig David Melding, os yw pawb yn hapus gyda hynny, ar gyfer wythnos nesaf. Ocê? Diolch. Roeddwn i'n meddwl bod rhywun yn mynd i anghytuno, wedyn. [Chwerthin.]

Therefore, I'd like to move a motion under Standing Order 17.22, I believe, to elect a temporary Chair. I propose David Melding, if that's okay. Is everyone content? Thank you very much. I thought that somebody was going to disagree with that nomination, then. [Laughter.]

Roedd pawb jest yn gwenu. 

Everyone was just smiling. 

Jest yn gwenu mewn hapusrwydd—[Torri ar draws.] Ie, hustings. Dim diolch. Reit, felly, diolch am hynny.  

Everyone was just smiling to give their consent—[Interruption.] Yes, a hustings. No, thank you. Right, thank you very much. 

Penodwyd David Melding yn Gadeirydd dros dro.

David Melding was appointed temporary Chair.

5. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 (vi) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod
5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42(vi) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Symud ymlaen at eitem 5, cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog i wahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod. Diolch. 

We'll move on now to item 5, which is the motion under Standing Order to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Thank you. 

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 11:34.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 11:34.

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