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Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu

Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee

24/10/2019

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Bethan Sayed AM Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Carwyn Jones AM
David Melding AM
Delyth Jewell AM
John Griffiths AM

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Dylan Foster Evans Cymdeithas Enwau Lleoedd Cymru
The Welsh Place-name Society
Eleri James Uwch Swyddog Isadeiledd ac Ymchwil, Comisiynydd y Gymraeg
Senior Infrastructure and Research Officer, Welsh Language Commissioner
Osian Rhys Cymdeithas yr Iaith
Cymdeithas yr Iaith
Pam Whitham Arolwg Ordnans
Ordnance Survey

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Martha Da Gama Howells Clerc
Clerk
Robin Wilkinson Ymchwilydd
Researcher

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 10:01.

The meeting began at 10:01.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Diolch a chroeso i'r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu y bore yma. Eitem 1 ar yr agenda yw cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau. Cafwyd ymddiheuriadau y bore yma gan Mick Antoniw, Aelod Cynulliad. Os nad oes gan rywun rhywbeth i'w ddatgan, awn ni'n syth mewn i'r eitem nesaf. 

Thank you and welcome to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee this morning. Item 1 on the agenda is introduction, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. We have received apologies this morning from Mick Antoniw AM. If nobody has any interests to declare, we'll go straight to the next item.

2. Diogelu Enwau Lleoedd Hanesyddol
2. Protection of Historic Place Names

Eitem 2, diogelu enwau lleoedd hanesyddol, a dŷn ni'n croesawu ein tystion yma y bore yma: Dylan Foster Evans, yn cynrychioli Comisiwn Brenhinol Henebion Cymru a Chymdeithas Enwau Lleoedd Cymru—

Which is item 2, namely protection of historic place names, and we welcome our witnesses here this morning: Dylan Foster Evans, representing the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales and the Welsh Place-name Society—

Mae'n ddrwg gen i dorri ar draws, ond dwi ddim yma ar ran y comisiwn.

Sorry to interrupt, but if I could just mention that I'm not here on behalf of the commission.

O, dŷch chi ddim yma ar ran—

Oh, you're not here on behalf—

Na, dwi'n gweithio i Brifysgol Caerdydd a dwi ar bwyllgor y gymdeithas enwau lleoedd.

No, I work for Cardiff University and I'm on the committee of the place-name society.

Dwi'n aelod o banel safoni enwau lleoedd y comisiynydd, ond dwi ddim yn ymwneud â'r comisiwn. Felly, mae'n ddrwg gen i darfu, ond roeddwn i'n meddwl y byddai'n well i mi ddweud hynny. 

I'm a member of the panel of the commissioner involved with standardising place names, but I'm not here on behalf of the commission. So, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I thought I should mention it.

Na, mae'n iawn ar gyfer y record, diolch. Roedd gen i'r wybodaeth anghywir; diolch yn fawr iawn am fy nghywiro. Pam Whitham—gobeithio fy mod i'n iawn gyda pawb arall, ond croeso i chi dorri ar draws os na—Arolwg Ordnans, wedyn Eleri James, uwch swyddog isadeiledd ac ymchwil Comisiynydd y Gymraeg, ac Osian Rhys, sef Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg—dwi ddim yn siŵr os mai'r cadeirydd ydych chi ragor.

No, that's fine for the record, thank you. I had the wrong information; thank you for correcting me. We have Pam Whitham—I hope the titles are correct for everyone else, but you're welcome to correct me if not—from the Ordnance Survey, then we have Eleri James, who is a senior infrastructure and research officer with the Welsh Language Commissioner, and Osian Rhys, from Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg—I don't know whether you're the chair anymore.

Na, aelod o grŵp hawl y gymdeithas.

No, I'm a member of the rights group.

Grêt. Iawn, diolch yn fawr iawn—wedi mynd drwy hynny'n weddol iawn y bore yma. Croeso i chi am ddod atom heddiw. Fel arfer, dŷn ni'n gofyn cwestiynau ar sail themâu gwahanol, felly, os yw'n iawn gyda chi, bydd Aelodau’n arwain ar hynny, ac awn ni'n syth mewn i gwestiynau. Does dim angen i chi gyffwrdd â'r microffonau; maen nhw'n digwydd ar ben eu hunain. 

Fe wnaf i gychwyn, felly. Dŷn ni eisiau edrych ar y mater yma achos dŷn ni wedi cael lot o ddiddordeb yn y maes. Yn sicr, mae yna lot o ddiddordeb gan fudiadau gwahanol, a hefyd gan bobl yn gyffredinol, ynglŷn â sut mae newid enwau yn digwydd, ac os ddylai hynny ddigwydd, a beth sy'n digwydd yn sgil hynny. Felly, ydych chi'n gallu rhoi rhyw fath o syniad i ni o sail y broblem, neu beth yw cyfradd y broblem yma yng Nghymru gyda newid enwau ar hyn o bryd? Does dim rhaid i chi ateb pob cwestiwn, gyda llaw, ond croeso i rhywun gychwyn.

Great. Thank you very much. We've gone through that reasonably unscathed this morning. Welcome to you this morning. As is customary, we have themed questions, so, if it's okay with you, Members will lead on those questions, and we'll go straight to those questions. You don't have to touch the microphones at all; they come on automatically on their own. 

So, I'll start. We want to look at this issue because we've had a great deal of interest in this particular field. Many different organisations have an interest in it, and also people across Wales have an interest in how place names change, and whether that should happen, and what happens as a result. So, could you give us an idea of the scale of the problem, or the extent of it, with regard to place name changes at the moment? You don't all have to answer every question, but you're welcome to start.

Ydych chi eisiau i fi ddechrau? Dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n anodd iawn dod ag ateb meintiol i chi neu ffigurau amboutu beth yw hyd a lled y broblem. Mae'r data sydd gyda ni yn fylchog iawn a nid yw'n rhoi darlun eglur. Ond un peth sy'n sicr iawn yw bod yna ganfyddiad cyffredinol, fel rydych chi wedi cyfeirio yn barod—mae yna ganfyddiad cyhoeddus bod yna risg i enwau lleoedd Cymru; hynny yw, eu bod nhw'n cael eu newid neu eu cyfieithu neu eu diystyru. Hynny yw, mae'r gofid yna wedi arwain at sawl ymgyrch gweledol iawn—sefydlu’r gymdeithas enwau lleoedd ei hun yn 2011, ymdrechion Dr Dai Lloyd i gyflwyno Bil yn 2017, a llu o ymdrechion eraill. Hynny yw, mae yna ganfyddiad poblogaidd bod yna fygythiad.

Efallai buaswn i'n lico manylu nes ymlaen amboutu'r gwahanol gategorïau o enwau a pha fath o fygythiad sydd iddyn nhw, achos mae perygl ein bod ni'n taflu popeth mewn i un cawdel, 'Mae yna fygythiad i enwau lleoedd Cymru', lle rydym ni'n sôn am sawl gwahanol math o enw mewn gwirionedd, ac efallai bod y ddeialog yn mynd yn gymhleth pan nad ydym ni yn glir pa enwau rydym ni'n sôn amdanyn nhw.

Would you like me to start? I think it's very difficult to bring you a quantitative response in terms of figures as to the scale of the problem. The data we have is patchy and doesn't give us a clear picture. But one thing that's certain is that there is a general perception, as you have already mentioned—there is a public perception that there is a risk to Welsh place names; that is, that they are being changed or translated or disregarded. That concern has led to a number of highly visible campaigns—the establishment of the place name society itself in 2011, the efforts of Dr Dai Lloyd to introduce a Bill in 2017, and many other campaigns and efforts. So, there is a popular perception that place names are under threat.

Perhaps I'd like to go into detail later on as to the different categories of names and what kind of threats exist, because there is a risk that we throw everything into the same cauldron, 'There is a threat to Welsh place names', but we are talking about all sorts of different names, if truth be told, and perhaps the dialogue will get a little complex if it's not clear what we're actually talking about. 

Ie, fe wnawn ni drafod hynny yn hwyrach.

Yes, we'll discuss that later on.

Hyfryd.

Great.

Unrhyw un arall gyda rhyw fath o—? Cwestiwn cyffredinol yw hwn i gychwyn, so—

Anyone else have any comments in response to that general question?

Fe fyddwn i'n cydweld ag Eleri, o ran ei bod hi'n anodd iawn gweld maint y broblem. Mae'n rhywbeth mae pobl yn cysylltu â Chymdeithas yr Iaith amdano fe yn eithaf rheolaidd. Mae'n rhywbeth mae pobl yn teimlo'n gryf iawn amdano fe. Dwi'n meddwl efallai nad yw e ddim yn ddim ond mater o enwau hanesyddol; mae e hefyd yn ymwneud ag enwi datblygiadau newydd. Efallai mai dyna un o'r pethau dŷn ni'n cael y mwyaf o sylwadau amdano fe yn y maes yma, a dwi'n meddwl ei fod e'n rhywbeth y dylai'r pwyllgor edrych arno hefyd. Ac wrth roi enwau ar ddatblygiadau newydd, mae modd defnyddio enwau hanesyddol sydd, efallai, wedi mynd neu'n mynd i fynd fel arall. Yn sicr, mae'n rhywbeth y mae pobl yn teimlo'n gryf amdano.

I would agree with Eleri that it's very difficult to identify the scale of the problem. It is something that people contact Cymdeithas yr Iaith about quite regularly. It's something that people feel very strongly about. Perhaps it isn't just a matter of historical place names; it also relates to the naming of new developments. That, perhaps, is one of the things that we receive most comments on in this area, and I do think it's something that the committee should look at too. And in naming new developments, of course, we can make use of historical names that may have been forgotten or may be forgotten. It's certainly something that people feel very strongly about.

10:05

Ar ran Cymdeithas Enwau Lleoedd Cymru, er enghraifft—yn amlwg, roedd y gymdeithas honno wedi'i sefydlu yn eithaf diweddar, yn rhannol oherwydd y gofidiau yma, ond rhesymau eraill hefyd, ac mae'r aelodaeth yn aml yn cysylltu yn poeni ynglŷn â newid enwau. Fel oedd Eleri James yn sôn gynnau, mae union natur y newid yn amrywio yn dibynnu ar y cyd-destun. Weithiau, mae yna ymateb yn dweud, 'Wel, mewn gwirionedd, ychydig iawn o newidiadau ffurfiol sydd yn digwydd'. Mae yna newidiadau anffurfiol yn digwydd ar lafar neu ar arwyddion, ond ychydig iawn o newidiadau sydd yn cael eu prosesu—er enghraifft, yn achos cronfa ddata'r Post Brenhinol. 

Mae awdurdodau lleol â chyfrifoldeb am hynny, ac mae rhai awdurdodau lleol yn cyhoeddi data yn ysbeidiol ar hyn. Roeddwn i'n edrych ar ddata oedd wedi'u cyhoeddi'n ddiweddar gan Gyngor Sir Ceredigion, ac mi oedden nhw'n cyfeirio at lond llaw o enwau lle roedden nhw wedi derbyn cais i newid enw. Roedden nhw wedi gofyn i'r perchnogion newydd, fel rheol, ystyried a oedden nhw wir eisiau newid yr enw neu a fyddai'n well ganddyn nhw gadw'r enw gwreiddiol. Ym mhob achos, ddigwyddodd hynny ddim. Rŵan, roedd hynny ond yn rhyw lond llaw—chwech neu saith o enghreifftiau yn yr adroddiad blynyddol yna, rwy'n credu. Ond, os ydych chi'n meddwl bod hynny'n digwydd bob blwyddyn—dywedwch chi bedair neu bump o enghreifftiau bob blwyddyn—ym mhob awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru, dros, mi ddywedwn ni, ddwy genhedlaeth—50 o flynyddoedd—buasech chi'n gallu bod yn sôn am 5,000 o enwau hanesyddol wedi mynd yn fan yna, sydd yn dalp sylweddol iawn, iawn. Felly, mae'r drafodaeth yn gallu, weithiau, tybio, 'Llond llaw o enghreifftiau sydd', ond os ydy hon yn broses gyson dros amser, o flwyddyn i flwyddyn i flwyddyn, rydyn ni'n fuan iawn yn cyrraedd miloedd o enwau yn cael eu colli. Felly, mi fyddwn yn pwysleisio hynny—i beidio â chraffu yn y tymor byr, byr, ond i gadw golwg am effaith gynyddol dros amser. Pwy a ŵyr beth fydd y sefyllfa mewn hanner canrif, ond dyna'r math o daflwybr sydd o ran enwau lleoedd—rhai mathau ohonyn nhw.

In terms of the Welsh Place-name Society, clearly, that society was established fairly recently, partly because of these concerns, although there are other reasons as well, and the membership often get in touch and they're concerned about name changes. As Eleri James mentioned earlier, the exact nature of that change varies according to the context. Sometimes, the response is, 'Well, truth be told, there are very few formal changes'. There are informal changes that happen orally or in terms of signs, but very few processed changes—for example, with regard to the Royal Mail database.

Local authorities have responsibility for that, and some local authorities do publish data sporadically on this. We were looking at data published by Ceredigion County Council, and they referred to a handful of names where they had received an application to change the name. They'd asked the new owners, as a rule, to consider whether they genuinely wanted to change the name or whether they wanted to keep the original name, but, in every case, that didn't happen. So, that was a handful—six or seven examples in that annual report, I think it was. But, if you think that that happens every year—say, four or five examples every year—in every local authority in Wales, then over two generations, say—50 years—you could be talking about 5,000 historic names that have gone there, which is a significant amount. So, the discussion can sometimes be, 'Well it's only a handful of examples', but if this is a consistent process over time from year to year, then very soon we'll reach thousands of names being lost. So, I would emphasise that we shouldn't scrutinise in the very short term, but focus on a period of time. Who knows what the situation will be in 50 years' time, but that's the kind of trajectory we can see in relation to place names, or some forms. 

From an Ordnance Survey perspective, we are very concerned about making sure that we have the correct names published—generally those that are in common use. We do work quite closely with the Welsh Language Commissioner to make sure we've got the right name, if it's a heritage name or a historic name, to make sure that we've got the right information on our maps and a consistent spelling of that name. One of the key things that we come across is that things change over time, and we don't know which one should be the right one that we publish.

Ocê, diolch. Symudwn ymlaen nawr at gwestiynau gan John Griffiths. Diolch, John.

Okay, thank you. Moving on to questions from John Griffiths. Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. We think there's a problem—a significant problem—although it's difficult to know the scale of it. Are you able to give the committee some idea as to who is doing the renaming? 

Well, it varies significantly, again, according to the category of name. If you're talking about individual residences, then people can apply to change the name through a form. If you look at this in a wider international context, I think that process—the way we do it—is very strange, in a way, if you compare with a country like Sweden. The presumption there is that there has to be some kind of reasoned argument for changing the name. Here, you don't have to give any reason at all. So, you could have a name that's 800 years old, you send a form off and you don't have to give any reason whatsoever why you're changing the name. Some councils—I think this is recognised as good practice—will write to them to say, 'Okay, this is a historic name. Have you considered—?' But, the default is to accept these changes, so they can happen very, very quickly and with very little opportunity to revisit discussions.

As I said, that doesn't happen in a huge amount of cases, but, cumulatively, over time that will have an effect. Other changes tend to happen on landscape features—they might be in guides or on club websites, whether that's outdoor pursuits of various types or campsites and things. They don't necessarily change officially, but, equally, the users of the landscape may not even have access to the original names and only recently coined names will be used. These can then appear in the landscape on signs and things, and it's those types of names that cause a lot of concern, I think, for people when they see a historic name that's been in the landscape for centuries change very, very quickly. But, again, it's that type of name, and because that change happens outside any formal procedure, it's harder to get hold of. 

10:10

And one of the issues that we have is our process is very evidence based. So, surveyors will be out in the field, they'll see a sign, and they'll take that as, 'That's the information that needs to go on our map', and that's what's changed, and then we'll get members of the public saying, 'That's not how we would spell it. That's not the name that we use'. So, it may not be a commonly used name, and that's one of the things that we like to make sure happens. 

Gaf i ychwanegu at yr hyn sydd gan Dr Dylan Foster Evans? Mae'n sôn am gategorïau o enwau. Mae yna gategorïau o enwau mae'r comisiynydd yn gyfrifol am argymell ffurfiau safonol arnyn nhw. Mae yna gyfrifoldeb penodol gan y comisiynydd i fod yn argymell ffurfiau safonol enwau aneddiadau, sef yn fras iawn pentrefi, trefi, dinasoedd, pentrefannau bach, weithiau, ardaloedd. Ond, hynny yw, rŷn ni'n gorfod canolbwyntio ar y lefel hynny oherwydd capasiti ac mae'n ofid gyda ni am yr enwau hynny, sef nad yw ffurfiau safonol bob tro'n cael eu defnyddio gan gyrff cyhoeddus, awdurdodau lleol ac eraill, nad yw enwau Cymraeg ar bentrefi yn cael eu cydnabod ar arwyddion, bod yna ffurfiau ansafonol yn cael eu defnyddio, ac, yn fwy na dim, fod yna anghysondeb yn y ffurfiau sy'n cael eu defnyddio—hynny yw, bod yna anghysondeb mawr o'r hyn sy'n cael ei ddefnyddio mewn cronfa ddata i'r hyn sy'n cael ei ddefnyddio gan yr uned gyfieithu, i'r hyn sy'n cael ei ddefnyddio gan yr adran briffyrdd ar arwyddion, a'r ffordd mae'r data yna wedyn yn cael ei drosglwyddo i asiantau eraill yn ganolog i fod yn rhan o gofrestr tir ac eiddo cenedlaethol, a'r ffordd mae'r data yna'n cael ei werthu ymlaen i asiantaethau preifat a chyhoeddus eraill. Mae'n gadwyn hynod gymhleth o ddata daearyddol, ond dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni eisiau cadw golwg ar y ffaith bod gyda ni bryderon am yr enwau mawr hyn ac enwau sy'n amlwg iawn yn y tirwedd, yn ogystal â'r mân enwau a'r enwau ar eiddo a nodweddion tirweddol.

If I may add to the comments made by Dr Dylan Foster Evans, he talks about categories of names, and there are categories that the commissioner is responsible for providing standardised terms for [Correction: advising on their standard forms]. The commissioner has responsibility to give standardised [Correction: to advise on the standard forms of] names for settlements, which include villages, towns, cities, hamlets, and areas more generally, but we have to focus on that level because of capacity, and it is a concern of ours that the standard forms of names aren't always used by public bodies, local authorities and others, that there are Welsh names on villages that aren't recognised on signage, that there are non-standard forms used, and, more than anything, that there is inconsistency in what's used—that there is significant inconsistency from what's used in a database and what's used by the translation unit, to what's used by the highways department on signage, and the way in which that data is then transferred to other agents centrally to be part of the national land and property register, and how that is then sold on to private and public agencies. So, it's a very complex chain of geographical data, but I do think that we need to keep a close eye on the fact that we have concerns about these important names and names that are very prominent in our landscape, as well as those smaller names and the names of properties and landscape features. 

Byddwn i'n adio i hynny. Dwi'n meddwl, fel roedd Dylan yn sôn, gydag enwau sy'n 800 oed, efallai, sy'n gallu cael eu newid, byddem ni eisiau gweld dim modd o newid yr enwau yna. O'n safbwynt ni, enwau Cymraeg sydd angen cael eu gwarchod ac nid yn unig eu gwarchod ond eu datblygu a'u tyfu. Dŷn ni'n teimlo mai enwau Cymraeg ddylai fod ar bob datblygiad a bob stryd—ar unrhyw beth newydd o hyn ymlaen—ac yn sicr ddylai pobl ddim fod yn gallu newid enwau presennol Cymraeg i enwau mewn ieithoedd eraill.

I ateb eich cwestiwn chi, 'Pwy sy'n newid yr enwau?', os edrychwch chi yng nghanol Caerdydd, roedd Sgwâr Canolog Caerdydd yn enw dwyieithog, sef 'Sgwâr Canolog, Central Square', ond wedyn daeth datblygwr mawr yna a rhoi arwyddion enfawr uniaith Saesneg, ac, felly, mewn ffordd, gallet ti ddadlau bod hwnna'n newid yr enw drwy arfer os yw pobl wedyn yn mynd i ddechrau defnyddio dim ond yr enw Saesneg.

Dwi'n meddwl bod yr un peth yn wir am ddatblygiadau newydd sbon. Gewch chi enwau weithiau fel Friars Walk yng Nghasnewydd—cawsom ni lawer o gwynion am hynny. Wel, mae yna enwau hanesyddol ar yr ardal yna a'r ffermydd neu gaeau yn yr ardal yna, a dylid bod defnydd ar yr enwau hanesyddol Cymraeg yn hytrach na chreu enwau o'r newydd, fel petai, sydd ddim yn Gymraeg.

What I would add to that, as Dylan was saying, with names that are 800 years old that can be changed, we would like to see that not being possible. From our point of view, it is Welsh names that need to be safeguarded, and not just safeguarded but developed and grown. We feel that Welsh names should be given to each development and every street—on anything new from now on—and certainly people shouldn't be able to change the current Welsh names to names in other languages.

To answer your question about who's changing these names, if you look at the centre of Cardiff, there was Central Square. It was 'Sgwâr Canolog, Central Square' in both languages and so was a bilingual name, and then a major developer came in and put up huge signs monolingually in English. So, you could argue that that, too, is an example of a name change through practice if people then start using just the English name for that site.

And I think the same is true for brand-new developments. You'll sometimes have names like Friars Walk in Newport, and we had a great many complaints about that. Well, there are historic names for that area and the farms or fields in that area, and those historic Welsh names should have been used rather than creating new names, as it were, that aren't Welsh.

John, mae Carwyn Jones eisiau dod i mewn yn gloi gyda chwestiwn atodol, os yw hwnna'n iawn.

John, Carwyn Jones wants to come in quickly with a supplementary, if that's okay. 

Yes, I've finished, actually. The big controversy with Friars Walk that I was aware of was the lack of an apostrophe, but there we are. 

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Beth dwi'n reslo gydag e ar hyn o bryd yw'r dystiolaeth. Nawr, dwi ddim yn gwadu o gwbl beth mae pobl wedi dweud, ond does dim data gyda ni o'n blaenau ni i roi ffordd i ni fesur y broblem. Y tro diwethaf welais i'r ffigurau ar hwn—roeddwn i yn y Llywodraeth bryd hynny—roedd mwy o enwau'n cael eu newid o'r Saesneg i'r Gymraeg na'r ffordd arall, ond rwy'n deall bod yna broblem, ond rwy'n credu y byddai'n help i ni gael rhyw fath o restr o ddata jest i ddangos beth sy'n digwydd ym mhob awdurdod er mwyn, wrth gwrs, fod hwnna'n rhoi sylfaen i ni wneud argymhellion, efallai. Oes yna ffordd i wneud hynny?

Thank you, Chair. What I'm wrestling with at the moment is the evidence. Now, I don't deny anything that anyone has said, but we don't have any data in front of us that would give us a means of measuring the problem. The last time I saw any figures on this was when I was in Government, and more names were being changed from English to Welsh than vice versa. I do understand that there's a problem, but I think it would be helpful for us to have some sort of data just to show what's happening in each local authority, for example, so that that gives us a foundation on which to make recommendations. Is there any way of doing that?

10:15

Rwy’n cael ar ddeall bod swyddogion yn Cadw yn ceisio cael gafael ar y data yma. Yn sicr, rydyn ni fel comisiynydd wedi bod yn cydweithio â swyddogion yn Cadw a’r comisiwn henebion, yn mynd mas i siarad â swyddogion yr awdurdodau lleol, yn tynnu eu sylw nhw at y rhestr o enwau lleoedd hanesyddol a’r rhestr o’r enwau lleoedd safonol sydd gyda ni ac yn dwyn sylw at y gwasanaethau sydd ar gael. Ac yn rhan o hynny, mae yna gais penodol wedi mynd atyn nhw i gael data, a data manylach, fel rŷch chi’n dweud, nid jest am niferoedd ond am natur yr enwau—hynny yw, pa fath o enwau sy’n cael eu newid, ac a oedd yr awdurdodau yma wedi bod yn cyfeirio at y rhestr enwau lleoedd hanesyddol yn y broses o gydsynio i newid ai peidio? So, rwy’n deall bod yna ddata ar y ffordd, a dyna fyddai’r ffynhonnell orau i gywain y data hynny.

I do understand that Cadw officials are trying to get hold of the data. Certainly, we in the commissioner's office have been working with officials in Cadw and the royal commission, going out to speak to officials at local authorities, drawing their attention to the list of historic place names and the standard list that we have, and drawing attention to the services that are available. And as part of that, a bid has been made to them for detailed data, not just about the numbers, as you say, but about the nature of the names and what kind of names are being changed, and whether the authorities had been referring to the historic place names in the process of agreeing to those name changes or not. So, I understand that data are on the way, and that would be the best source to gather those data.

Jest un sydd efallai tipyn bach yn wahanol ynglŷn ag edrych ar enwau hanesyddol, achos mae enwau newydd yn troi'n hanesyddol dros y blynyddoedd, oes yna farn gan y bwrdd ynglŷn â phroblem fawr dwi’n ei gweld ar draws Cymru, sef arwyddion yn Gymraeg am bentrefi neu efallai am ddatblygiadau newydd sydd wedi cael eu camsillafu? Ac wedi hynny, wrth gwrs, maen nhw’n aros lan. Fyddai fe ddim yn digwydd yn Saesneg, ond mae e’n digwydd yn Gymraeg. Mae yna enghraifft gyda fi yn fy etholaeth i—ystâd o’r enw Broadlands—lle maen nhw wedi enwi sawl heol yn Gymraeg, wedi camsillafu’r Gymraeg ac wedi camgyfieithu’r Saesneg. So, does neb yn gwybod ble maen nhw’n byw, ac mae pobl yn cael problem gyda’r banc, er enghraifft. Os ydyn nhw’n moyn cael rhyw fath o gredyd, does dim cyfeiriad gyda nhw, yn ôl y banciau.

So, o ran sicrhau bod enwau newydd, a fydd yn troi’n hanesyddol dros y blynyddoedd, ac o ran sicrhau bod yna arwyddion sydd wedi cael eu sillafu’n iawn ar yr heol, pa fath o farn sydd gan y bwrdd ar hwnna? Pa fath o bethau y gallwn ni eu hargymell, felly, i sicrhau nad yw hwnna'n digwydd yn y pen draw? Achos y pwynt yw, petai rywbeth yn mynd lan yn Saesneg wedi’i gamsillafu, byddai’n cael ei newid, ond, yn Gymraeg, mae jest yn sefyll yna. Ym Mhen-y-bont, roedd gyda ni ‘gorsaf fws’—dim ond un bws oedd yn gallu mynd yna. A dyna’r peth dwi’n siarad amdano: rydym ni fel pe baem ni’n derbyn safonau is yn Gymraeg nag yn Saesneg. Ac os yw hwnna’n parhau, wrth gwrs, yn y pen draw mae hwnna’n dod yn drefn ac mae hwnna’n effeithio ar enwau a fydd yn hanesyddol yn y dyfodol.

Just on a slightly different point in looking at historical place names, because new names do become historical over the years, do you have a view on a major problem I see across Wales, namely Welsh language signage for villages or new developments that have been misspelt but they stay up? It wouldn't happen in English but it happens in Welsh. There's an example in my constituency—an estate called Broadlands—where they've named a number of roads, given them Welsh names. They've misspelt the Welsh and they've mistranslated it into English, and nobody knows where they live. If they want to have credit from the bank, they don't have an address that they can use, according to the bank.

So, in order to ensure that new names that will become historical over the years, in order to ensure that those names are spelt correctly on signs, now, what view does the board take on that? What kind of things could we recommend in order to ensure that that doesn't happen? The point is that if something went up in English that was misspelt, it would be changed, but, in Welsh, it just stays there. In Bridgend, we had gorsaf fws, so, just the one bus. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about: we seem to accept lower standards in Welsh than we would be willing to accept in English. And if that remains, then, ultimately, that becomes the norm and that has an impact on names that will become historical in the future.

Os—. Sori.

If—. Sorry.

Na, cer di.

No, you go.

Os gwnawn ni lynu at y cwestiwn o enwi am y tro, does dim awdurdod enwi gyda ni yn y Deyrnas Unedig nac yng Nghymru, ac efallai ein bod ni angen edrych ar y cwestiwn hynny o ddifrif—bod eisiau awdurdod sy’n pennu pa ffurfiau ddylai cael eu defnyddio ar arwyddion mewn gweinyddiaeth gyhoeddus. Dyw hwnna ddim yn golygu eich bod chi’n gorfod defnyddio’r enwau yna mewn pob cylch arall o fywyd, achos mae yna amrywiadau diddorol yn digwydd, onid oes? Hynny yw, mae yna amrywiadau sillafu sy’n bethau gwerthfawr, sy'n bethau hanesyddol, sy’n bethau i’w cadw, ond dwi’n meddwl bod eisiau inni fod yn glir ar ba ffurfiau sy’n cael eu defnyddio mewn gweinyddiaeth gyhoeddus ar bob lefel.

Ac ar lefel stryd, fel rŷch chi’n sôn, mae yna broblem yn gallu bod yn y lle cyntaf amboutu ffurfio enwau'r strydoedd yna a sicrhau eu bod nhw ar arwyddion, ac mae'n rhaid bod gan awdurdodau lleol brosesau cadarn iawn mewn lle ar gyfer hynny. Ond buaswn i'n tybio hefyd fod angen cefnogaeth allanol arnyn nhw achos bod yr arbenigedd ddim yna’n fewnol bob tro. Os ydyn ni’n sôn am y rhestr o enwau lleoedd hanesyddol, mae’n adnodd ymchwil gwych iawn, ond mae angen help ar rywun i ddehongli beth sydd mewn yna, achos mae yna bob math o ffurfiau’n cael eu cofnodi a phob math o amrywiadau sillafu sydd wedi bodoli ar draws y canrifoedd—ar enw cae, dywedir, a'ch bod chi eisiau atgyfodi enw’r cae yna i fod yn enw ar stryd newydd. Mae angen cymorth arnoch chi i wybod pa ffurf i ddefnyddio ac a ydy’r enw yna'n un y byddech chi’n dymuno'i atgyfodi. Hynny yw, mae rhai enwau’n neisach, yn harddach, yn fwy addas na'i gilydd, ond ar hyn o bryd does dim adnodd cenedlaethol i gynorthwyo’r gwaith yna, nac ychwaith i gynorthwyo gydag ynganiad. Dwi'n meddwl bod ynganiad enwau mor bwysig, ac mae ynganiad yn gallu dieithrio pobl. Os ydyn nhw’n gweld enw dŷn nhw ddim yn ei ddeall, dŷn nhw ddim yn deall bod yr enw’n bwysig a dŷn nhw'n sicr ddim yn gwybod sut mae dechrau ei ddweud e, does dim syndod eu bod nhw eisiau newid enw. So, hynny yw, mae eisiau datblygu cymorth ac adnodd cenedlaethol, fel bod pobl yn gwybod lle i droi am atebion ar y pethau yma er mwyn addysgu a jest pwysleisio eu pwysigrwydd nhw i bob agwedd ar ein hiaith a'n diwylliant ni.

If we stick to that question of naming, for the time being, there is no naming authority in the United Kingdom nor in Wales, and perhaps we do need to look at that question seriously—that we need an authority that decides what forms should be used on signs in public administration. That doesn't mean that you have to use those names in every other circle of life, because there are variations. There are variations in spelling that are valuable, that are historic in their own right, that do need to be maintained, but I think we need to be clear about what forms are used in public administration on every level.

And on a street level, as you say, there can be a problem in the first instance about the forms of names used on our streets and ensuring that they're on signs, and authorities must have very robust processes in place for that. But I would also think that they need external support, as well, because the expertise isn't always there internally. If we're talking about the list of historic place names, it's an excellent research resource, but one needs help to interpret what's in there, because there are all sorts of forms recorded and all kinds of variations in spelling that have existed over the centuries—for example, on the name of a field, and you would want to revive that name to be the name of a new street. Well, you need support to know what form to use, whether that name is one that you would want to revive. There are some names that are more pleasant and more appropriate than others, but at the moment there isn't a national resource to support that work or to support as regards pronunciation. I think pronunciation of names is so important, and pronunciation can exclude people. If they see a name that they don't understand, they don't understand how to say the word, even, then, there's no surprise that they want to change that name. So, we need to develop support and assistance on a national basis so that people know where to turn to for answers on these issues, and to educate and to emphasise their importance to all aspects of our language and culture.

Byddwn i'n cytuno â’r pwynt olaf yna ynghylch addysgu. Mewn ffordd, pan fydd pobl yn newid enwau eu tai yn siroedd y gorllewin—ac mae yna ganfyddiad bod hynny’n digwydd—o enwau Cymraeg i enwau Saesneg, hynny yw, mae pobl yn gwneud hynny oherwydd eu bod nhw'n teimlo dieithrwch tuag at yr enw, eu bod nhw ddim yn teimlo eu bod nhw'n gallu ei ddweud e, neu fod pobl eraill maen nhw'n eu hadnabod ddim yn mynd i allu ei ddweud e, neu beth bynnag. Ac mewn ffordd, dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni'n teimlo bod y Gymraeg yn perthyn i bawb yng Nghymru, p'un ai ydyn nhw'n byw yma erioed neu newydd symud yma. Mewn ffordd, mae angen i bobl gael mynediad at y Gymraeg ac mae angen addysgu pobl a'u helpu nhw i weld beth yw hanes yr enw yna a hanes yr holl ddiwylliant sy'n dod gyda hynny.

Achos, mewn ffordd, dim ond symptom yw newid yr enw, fel roeddwn i'n dweud. Gallwch chi gael Deddf sy'n mynnu na chaiff pobl newid yr enw, ond dyw hynny ddim yn gwneud dim byd, dim ond cuddio newid demograffeg enfawr sy'n digwydd mewn rhai rhannau o'r wlad. Mewn ffordd, beth sydd angen ei wneud yw, pan fydd pobl yn symud i mewn, eu croesawu nhw at y Gymraeg. Hynny yw, gellid ehangu hynny i faes eang iawn—dylai fod gwersi Cymraeg ymhob cymuned. Hynny yw, mae eisiau popeth, onid oes—economi gryfach yn siroedd y gorllewin fel eich bod chi ddim yn cael yr allfudo a'r mewnfudo sydd gyda ni ar hyn o bryd? Ond dwi'n mynd oddi ar y pwynt braidd.

Ond o ran roeddech chi'n gofyn am faint y broblem, dwi'n meddwl, o'n safbwynt ni, mae colli un enw yn drychineb, a beth oedd Dylan yn sôn yn gynharach—os ŷch chi'n edrych ar sampl bach, rydych chi'n gweld bod yna newid graddol yn digwydd. Oes, mae yna newid yn digwydd o'r Saesneg i'r Gymraeg hefyd, a dwi'n meddwl y byddem ni, petai rhyw fath o ddeddfwriaeth ar gyfer atal pobl rhag newid enwau, eisiau deddfwriaeth sy'n atal pobl rhag newid enwau Cymraeg i enwau ieithoedd eraill, a byddem ni eisiau bod pobl yn gallu newid enwau eraill, fel bod gennym ni fwy o enwau Cymraeg. Byddem ni ddim eisiau i ddeddfwriaeth atal hynny, achos dŷn ni'n teimlo ein bod ni, gobeithio, yn symud tuag at sefyllfa lle mae'r Gymraeg yn perthyn i bawb, lle mae mwy a mwy o siaradwyr Cymraeg, mae mwy a mwy o bobl eisiau defnyddio'r Gymraeg bob dydd, a dŷn ni'n meddwl taw enwau Cymraeg ddylai fod ar lefydd yng Nghymru.

I would agree with that final point on education. In a way, when people change the name of houses in western counties—and there's a perception that that happens—from Welsh to English, that is, people do that because they feel excluded by the name in some way, they don't feel that they can enunciate it, or that other people they know won't be able to say it or whatever. We feel that the Welsh language belongs to all the people of Wales, whether they have lived here throughout their lives, or whether they've just moved here. In a way, people need access to the Welsh language, and people need to be educated and helped to see what the history of that name entails and all of the cultural aspects that come with that.

Because, in a way, the name change is only a symptom. You could have legislation insisting that people can't change names, but that does nothing but mask a huge demographic change happening in certain parts of the country. In a way, what we need to do is, when people do move in, they need to be welcomed to the Welsh language. Now, you could expand that very broadly—there should be Welsh language lessons in all communities, for example. We need everything, don't we—a stronger economy in the counties of the west of Wales so you don't see that outmigration and immigration that we're seeing at the moment? That's slightly off point.

But you asked about the scale of the problem: I think from our point of view, the loss of one name is a tragedy, and as Dylan mentioned earlier, if you look at a small sample, you will see that there is a gradual change happening. Yes, there is change happening from English to Welsh too, and if there were to be some sort of legislation to prevent name change, we would want legislation that would prevent changing Welsh names to names in other languages, and we would want to see people being able to change other names, so that we would have more Welsh language names. We wouldn't want legislation to preclude that, because we are, hopefully, moving towards a situation where the Welsh language belongs to everyone, where there are more and more Welsh speakers and more and more people who want to use the language on a daily basis, and we believe that places in Wales should have Welsh names.

10:20

Diolch. Symudwn ymlaen at Delyth Jewell nawr.

Thank you. Moving on to Delyth Jewell now.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Roeddwn i eisiau gofyn am yr union faes yna, o ran sut i gael mwy o bobl yng Nghymru—wel, pawb yng Nghymru, dim ots os ydyn nhw'n siarad Cymraeg neu ddim, i deimlo perchnogaeth dros yr enwau hanesyddol yma. Dwi'n rili hoffi'r syniad yna o helpu addysgu pobl am ynganu, achos rwy'n meddwl taw dyna ydy'r barrier cyntaf mae pobl yn teimlo. Os ydyn nhw'n gweld—yn enwedig pan fo pobl yn gwneud y jôcs yna am, 'O, does gennych chi ddim beth bynnag ydy vowels yn Gymraeg—'. Beth ydy vowel?

Thank you, Chair. I wanted to ask about that exact field with regard to how to get more people in Wales—well,  everyone in Wales, whether they speak Welsh or not, to feel ownership of these historic place names. I really do like that idea of helping to educate people about pronunciation, because I think that is the first barrier that people come against. If they see—or especially when people make those jokes, 'Oh, you don't have whatever vowels is in Welsh.' What is it?

Llafariad.

It's 'llafariad'.

Llafariad. Diolch. 'Does gennych chi ddim llafariaid yn Gymraeg'—mae e achos y dieithrwch yna, mae e'n dod o—. Os oedden nhw'n deall mwy am y Gymraeg—. So, oes gennych chi syniadau eraill ynglŷn â sut—dwi'n gwybod bod hyn tipyn bach yn—. Mae e'n gysylltiedig, rwy'n meddwl. Oes gennych chi syniadau eraill o ran sut byddem ni'n gallu cael y boblogaeth yn gyffredinol i deimlo, pan maen nhw'n gweld enwau llefydd yn Gymraeg, eu bod nhw'n perthyn iddyn nhw a bod dim angen wastad—? A ddylai fod mwy o lefydd sydd yn esbonio cefndir yr enw neu rywbeth? Beth ydych chi'n teimlo?

Llafariad. Thank you. 'You don't have vowels in Welsh'—it's because of that barrier, isn't it? If they understood more about the Welsh language—. So, do you have other ideas about—I know this is a little—. It is linked, I think, to the question. Do you have any other ideas about how we could get the population as a whole to feel, when they see place names in Welsh, that they belong to them and that they don't always—? Or should there should be more places that explain the background of a name or something? How do you feel about that?

Wel, mae'n gwestiwn da, ac mae sut ydym ni'n meddwl am enwau lleoedd yn ddiddorol. Hynny yw, un ffordd o feddwl am enwau lleoedd Cymraeg yng nghyd-destun siaradwyr di-Gymraeg ydy meddwl amdanyn nhw fel geiriau benthyg. Hynny yw, mae siaradwyr Saesneg yn defnyddio llu o eiriau Cymraeg fel enwau lleoedd. At ei gilydd dydy Saesneg Cymru ddim yn benthyg llawer o eiriau cyffredin o'r Gymraeg—ychydig iawn, iawn. Ond enwau lleoedd—maen nhw'n rhan o iaith siaradwyr Saesneg, boed hynny mewn ardaloedd gydag enwau Cymraeg yn draddodiadol, neu yn ardaloedd yng Nghaerdydd fel Grangetown, lle mae gennych chi 'Llanbradach' a'r holl enwau yno o ystâd teulu Bute wedi cael eu rhoi ar y strydoedd. Felly, mae hwnna'n un ffordd, yn hytrach na dweud, 'Ylwch, mae'r rhain yn enwau Cymraeg sydd yn estron, rydych chi'n gorfod gwneud rhyw ymdrech fawr', dweud, 'Wel, maen nhw wedi cael eu benthyg i'r Saesneg—i ryw raddau maen nhw'n cael eu hynganu mewn ffyrdd gwahanol' a pheidio â mynd yn orobsesiynol ynglŷn ag amrywiaeth ynglŷn ag ynganiad.

Beth rydyn ni hefyd yn draddodiadol wedi bod yn wael iawn am wneud ydy cofnodi'r rhesymau pam y mae'r enwau wedi cael eu dewis. Felly, nid yn unig mae'r enw efallai yn ddieithr, ond does gan neb syniad pam yr enw stryd yma. Felly, dwi'n gwybod yma yng Nghaerdydd dŷn ni'n gobeithio enwi strydoedd newydd yn y Gymraeg, ond hefyd cadw cofnod sydd yn dweud, 'Wel, pam fod yr enw yma?' Yn enwedig i gymuned newydd sbon, mae'n creu cyswllt gyda'r ardal, gyda hanes yr ardal, helpu ymdeimlad o berthyn; byddai modd rhoi cymorth o ran ynganu, ond eto, byddwn i ddim yn dweud ei bod hi'n ddiwedd y byd os oes yna amrywiaeth ynganu. Ond dŷn ni'n colli cyfle yna ar hyn o bryd. Hyd yn oed pan dŷn ni'n enwi strydoedd am resymau hanesyddol ac ati, does neb ddim callach pam, a beth ydy'r gwahaniaeth rhwng enw sydd wedi cael ei greu o nunlle ac enw sydd yn rhan o'r dirwedd ers canrifoedd.

Well, it's a good question. How we think about place names is interesting. One way of thinking about Welsh place names in the context of non-Welsh speakers is to think about borrowed words. That is, English speakers use all sorts of Welsh names as place names. Generally speaking, the English spoken in Wales doesn't borrow many common words from the Welsh language, or very few. But place names are part of the language of English speakers, be that in areas with traditionally Welsh names, or in areas of Cardiff such as Grangetown, where you have 'Llanbradach' and all those names from the Bute estate that have been given to roads. Now, that's one way, rather than saying, 'Well, these are Welsh names that are unfamiliar and you have to make an effort', to say, 'They've been borrowed into English, to some degree, they're pronounced in a different way', and we shouldn't be too obsessional in terms of variation of pronunciation.

What we've traditionally been very poor at doing is to record why those names have been chosen. So, not only is the name unfamiliar, but nobody has any idea why it was chosen for the street name. I know in Cardiff we're hoping to give new streets Welsh names, but also to keep a record as to why that name was given to the street. Particularly for a new community it creates a link with the area, a link with the history of the area. We could provide assistance with pronunciation, but, again, I wouldn't say it's the end of the world if there is a difference in pronunciation. But we're missing an opportunity at the moment. Even when we give streets historical place names, nobody knows why, and the difference between a name that's been plucked out of the air and one that's been a link to the landscape for years.

10:25

A byddai hynny yr un peth i siaradwyr Cymraeg hefyd, os nad ydyn nhw'n deall cefndir yr enw. Ocê, bydden nhw'n gallu ynganu'r peth, ond bydden nhw ddim yn teimlo'r cysylltiad yna gyda'r enw.

And that would be the same for Welsh speakers as well, if they don't understand the background of the name. Okay, yes, they could pronounce it, but they wouldn't feel that connection with the name.

A faint ohonon ni sydd yn deall tarddiad ac ystyr yr enwau yma go iawn? Dwi'n meddwl bod adrodd straeon yr enwau yn bwysig. Hynny yw, mae yna ymgyrchoedd poblogaidd wedi cael lot o sylw. Efallai eich bod chi'n cofio fideo oedd gan y comedïwr Tudur Owen yn sôn am newid enwau amlwg iawn—Llyn Bochlwyd, Lake Australia. Roedd hynny wedi cael lot o sylw ac wedi gafael yn nychymyg pobl—hynny yw, y syniad yma o adrodd straeon. A dwi yn gweld y byddai yna le ar gyfer ymgyrchoedd cenedlaethol yn y maes yma. Hynny yw, ein bod ni'n gallu eu defnyddio nhw i ddenu twristiaid. Llanfairpwllgwyngyll—enw i ddenu twristiaid oedd yr enw hwnnw yn y lle cyntaf. Mae eisiau inni feddwl yn greadigol am y maes hefyd a sut mae defnyddio'r enwau yma i'n gosod ni ar wahân, a denu pobl drwy'r enwau, yn hytrach na'u bod nhw'n rhwystr i bobl—eu defnyddio nhw fel ffordd o ddenu pobl mewn i'n hanes ni.

And how many of us do understand the source and meaning of these names? I think telling the story of those names is very important. There have been some popular campaigns. You may recall a video by the comedian Tudur Owen talking about name changes—Llyn Bochlwyd and Lake Australia, for example. That got a great deal of attention and grasped people's imagination. So, there's this idea of telling the story, and I do see that there would be some scope for national campaigns in this area and we could use that to attract tourists, for example. Llanfairpwllgwyngyll was a name that was designed to attract tourists. We have to think creatively about this area and how we use these names in order to set us apart and to attract people through the names rather than them being a barrier to people. We should use them as a means of drawing people into our history.

Dwi wedi gwneud gwaith gydag ysgolion cynradd ac uwchradd, gyda grwpiau cymunedol yng Nghaerdydd, drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg a Saesneg, ac mae brwdfrydedd ynglŷn â'r enwau pan mae pobl yn gweld bod eu henw stryd nhw'n fwy na ryw enw ar hap a damwain—eu bod nhw'n gysylltiedig â hanes y lle ers efallai canrif, dwy ganrif neu fwy, beth bynnag. Mae'n dod yn fyw, ac mae plant wrth eu boddau'n gweld eu stryd nhw, a beth oedd hanes y lle, achos maen nhw'n teimlo perchnogaeth dros hynny, ac yn aml iawn yn y cyd-destun dinesig yng Nghaerdydd, dyw e ddim bob tro yn hawdd cael yr ymdeimlad o berchnogaeth yna dros y Gymraeg, ac mae'n dod drosodd trwy drafod enwau lleoedd yn aml iawn.

I've done work with primary schools and secondary schools, and with community groups as well in Cardiff, through the medium of Welsh and English, and the enthusiasm for the names when people see that their street's name is more than just a random name—it's connected to the place for a century or two centuries, perhaps, ago. It comes alive to them, and the children are delighted to see what the story of their street and that place was, and feel ownership for that name. There's an urban context, often, in Cardiff, and it's not very easy to have that feeling of ownership for the Welsh language, but it's easy to get that through the names very often.

Mae yna enghraifft: Pontlotyn, lle'r oedd fy mam wedi cael ei geni—roedd yn arfer cael ei enwi, yn gynt, yn 'Sodom a Gomorrah', ond pan oedd y cwmni trên wedi agor stesion yna, roedden nhw wedi penderfynu eu bod nhw'n methu rhoi lawr yn yr adroddiad blynyddol, 'Rydyn ni wedi agor stesion yn Sodom a Gomorrah', so gwnaethon nhw newid yr enw. Ond 'Pontlotyn'—dwi'n meddwl bod yna bont gan berson o'r enw 'Lot' yn yr un stori Feiblaidd, so mae yna gysylltiad, ond dyw pobl byth yn deall hynna. So, eto, os oedd mwy o bobl yn gwybod yr hanes, ac mae'n hanes doniol hefyd—sori, I digress. [Torri ar draws.] Sori, oeddech chi eisiau dweud rhywbeth mwy ar hynna?

There is the example of Pontlottyn, where my mother was born. It used to be called 'Sodom and Gomorrah', but when the train company opened a station there they decided that they couldn't put down in their annual report that they'd opened a station in Sodom and Gomorrah, so they changed the name. But Pontlottyn—I think there is a bridge that was owned by Lot in the same biblical story, so there is a connection, but people don't understand that connection. But if more people understood the story, and that's quite an amusing story as well—but, sorry, I digress. [Interruption.] Sorry, did you have anything further to say on that?

Gaf i jest fachu ar enghraifft Pontlotyn, i fynd â ni ar drywydd ychydig bach yn wahanol? Yn fy maes gwaith i, rwyf i'n gyfrifol am weinyddu cyfrifoldeb y comisiynydd dros argymell ffurfiau safonol enwau lleoedd. Mae 'Pontlotyn' yn enw rydym ni wedi bod yn ei drafod yn ddiweddar iawn gyda Chaerffili, ac, wrth gwrs, ar hyn o bryd mae yna ddwy ffurf o leiaf reit amlwg o sillafu 'Pontlotyn', un gyda dwy 't' ac un gydag un. Hynny yw, mae materion fel yna yn anodd o ran pennu pa ffurfiau sydd yn mynd ar arwydd, pa ffurfiau rŷch chi'n eu rhoi mewn cronfeydd data. Hynny yw, ydy hi'n synhwyrol go iawn fod gyda chi ddwy ffurf mor agos at ei gilydd ar arwydd, o dan ei gilydd—un y ffurf Saesneg a'r llall yn ffurf Gymraeg? Dyna'r math o gwestiynau rŷn ni'n ymrafael â nhw fel swyddfa, ac yn ceisio cynnig arweiniad yn eu cylch nhw. Ond does dim grym statudol gyda ni o gwbl yn y maes yma, ac mae hynny'n gwneud pethau yn anodd ar adegau.

Can I just focus on Pontlottyn, just to pursue a different route here? In my field of work, I'm responsible for recommending standardised place names on behalf of the commissioner. 'Pontlottyn' is a name that we've been discussing with Caerphilly, and, of course, at the moment there are two forms at least of spelling 'Pontlottyn', one with one 't' and one with two. So, issues like that are difficult in terms of deciding what form goes on a sign, what forms you put on databases. That is, is it sensible for you to have two such similar forms on one sign—one English form, as it were, and one Welsh form? Those are the kinds of issues that we're trying to grapple with as an office, and offer guidance on them, but we don't have statutory powers at all in this field, and that makes it very difficult for us at times.

A dwi'n meddwl bod hynny'n rhywbeth y bydd David Melding yn dod nôl ato fe wedyn, so spoiler fanna.

Allaf i ofyn hefyd am y rhestr statudol y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi'i chreu? Fel dŷn ni'n deall, dyw'r rhestr ddim yn rhoi'r grym i'r Llywodraeth i—wel, dyw e ddim yn rhoi diogelwch ffurfiol i'r enwau. So, ydych chi'n meddwl bod hynna'n mynd yn ddigon pell? Rwy'n deall mai un o'r rhesymau pam nad oedden nhw wedi mynd mor bell â hynna oedd achos hawliau dynol. Roedden nhw'n dweud bod hynna'n un o'r rhesymau pam fod pobl wedi dweud y dylen nhw ddim cael y grym yna. Oes gennych chi farn ar hynna?

And I think that's something that David Melding will pick up on a little later—so, a spoiler there.

Could I also ask about the statutory list that the Welsh Government has drawn up? As we understand it, the list doesn't formally safeguard place names, so do you think that the list of historic place names goes far enough? I think the reason why they didn't go that far was because of issues surrounding human rights. They said that that was one of the reasons why people said that they shouldn't have those powers. Do you have any views on that?  

Mi fyddwn i'n dweud, o ran y rhestr, mae'r rhestr yn adnodd dwi wrth fy modd yn ei defnyddio. Mae'n gyfoethog iawn iawn, mae'n cynyddu o ran faint o wybodaeth sydd. Ar y llaw arall, dwi'n ffodus o fod mewn sefyllfa lle dwi wedi gallu arfer defnyddio'r math yma o adnodd.

Mae'n tynnu ar ffynonellau o ganrifoedd gwahanol yn y ddwy iaith—neu dair iaith, yn cynnwys Lladin. Nid ydy o'n rhywbeth y mae'n hawdd iawn i unigolyn fynd ato fo i'w ddefnyddio, fel roedd Eleri James wedi sôn amdano fo gynnau, a does yna ddim unrhyw reidrwydd ar awdurdod lleol i ddefnyddio'r ffurfiau yna. Hynny yw, mae yna ganllawiau sydd yn dweud y dylai'r awdurdod ystyried, neu roi ystyriaeth, i'r ffurfiau yna.

Mae rhai siroedd, er enghraifft, os ydych chi'n dymuno gwneud cais i newid enw eich tŷ chi, er enghraifft, yn cynnwys dolen i'r wefan yna. Ond eto, yn gyntaf, mae'n anodd iawn gwybod sut mae defnyddio'r ffynhonnell yna. Yn ail, eto, dwi'n meddwl, gan ein bod ni'n rhagdybio ei bod o'n iawn i bawb newid unrhyw enw, dŷn ni, fel petai, yn gadael i'r penderfyniad ddigwydd gan unigolyn i newid enw ac wedyn gofyn a ydyn nhw'n siŵr. Felly, dros hanner canrif yn ôl, roedd y Cenhedloedd Unedig wedi argymell rhai arferion ynglŷn ag enwau lleoedd, ac un peth roedden nhw'n ei ddweud oedd bod newidiadau diangen i enwau lleoedd yn rhywbeth i'w osgoi. Dydyn ni ddim yn cymryd yr agwedd yna o gwbl, mewn gwirionedd, gyda'r math yna o enw, oherwydd mae rhwydd hynt i unrhyw un newid. Beth dŷn ni'n ei wneud yw gofyn iddyn nhw, 'Ydych chi wedi edrych ar hwn?', ar ôl iddyn nhw wneud y penderfyniad, mewn gwirionedd. Ac yn ôl y dystiolaeth o Geredigion, doedd neb o gwbl wedi newid eu barn ar sail hynny, yn y nifer eithaf bychan o enwau yn y fan yna.

O ran hawliau dynol, i edrych ar Sweden, yn y fan yna, y farn maen nhw'n ei chymryd yw nad ydy enwau lleoedd yn berchen i unigolion, neu berchnogion, yn unig; mae hynny'n rhan o'r peth, ond maen nhw hefyd yn rhan o eiddo'r gymdeithas. A hefyd, dros amser, beth maen nhw'n ei ddweud ydy fod enwau'n rhan o iaith ac mae hynny'n berchen i bawb. Felly, dŷn ni'n cymryd agwedd wahanol yn y fan yna. Maen nhw hefyd yn dweud na ddylech chi ddim newid, neu y bydd enwau lleoedd ddim yn cael eu newid heb reswm da os ydy'r enw yna wedi'i sefydlu. Dydyn ni ddim yn cymryd yr agwedd yna—dŷn ni'n rhoi rhwydd hynt i unrhyw un newid enw. Felly, dwi ddim yn gweld bod yna ddadleuon cyfreithiol yn erbyn hynny.

Mae'n mynd yn gymhleth os ydyn ni eisiau amddiffyn enwau lleoedd trwy adnabod pa enw dŷn ni eisiau ei amddiffyn a chreu rhestr anferthol o ddegau o filoedd o enwau. Efallai mai'r ffordd i feddwl ydy meddwl eto am y broses yna, pan mae pobl yn gwneud cais i newid enw tŷ a'u bod nhw'n gorfod rhoi rheswm. Dwi'n meddwl byddai hyd yn oed jest gofyn hynny yn gwneud i bobl ystyried. Dydyn ni ddim yn gwneud hynny. Yn Sweden, er enghraifft, wedyn, maen nhw'n pwyso a mesur y rhesymau yna. Rŵan, fe allwch chi ddweud y byddai hynny'n creu llawer iawn o waith, ond fel roeddwn i'n ei ddweud gynnau, fesul awdurdod lleol, byddwn i'n meddwl mai pedair neu bum enghraifft y flwyddyn fyddai yna. Felly ni fyddai'n llawer o waith, dwi ddim yn meddwl, a byddai hynny, o bosib, yn osgoi sefyllfa mewn hanner canrif lle mae miloedd o enwau wedi mynd.

Y peth arall dwi'n gweld yn rhyfedd yn hyn oll, dwi'n meddwl, ydy: dywedwch chi eich bod chi'n penderfynu newid enw tŷ, dŷch chi'n edrych ar y rhestr hanesyddol ac yn penderfynu peidio â newid eich barn. Dŷch chi wedi prynu tŷ fferm, mae yna enw yna ers chwe chanrif, dŷch chi'n prynu'r lle, ei wneud i fyny, ei werthu ar ôl chwe mis wedi newid yr enw, a dyna ni'r enw wedi newid, wedyn. Ac felly mae'r perchnogion newydd yn cael yr enw newydd. Felly mae yna benderfyniad yn cael ei wneud yn rhwydd iawn, iawn, yn sydyn iawn, iawn, a dyna wedyn ydy'r status quo. Felly, mae gennych chi chwe chanrif sydd wedi mynd mewn efallai 10 munud a does yna ddim ffordd amlwg o ddadwneud hynny heb eich bod chi, rywsut, yn cael at y perchnogion newydd, yn rhoi gwybod iddyn nhw ynglŷn â hanes y lle a dechrau proses newydd. Felly, mae'r drefn ddiofyn, y default yn y wlad yma, yn arwain at newid enwau. Yng ngwledydd eraill, mae'r default diofyn fel arall—mae o blaid cadw enwau. Felly, dwi'n meddwl mai dyna'r newid mawr. A dwi'n meddwl y byddai hyd yn oed gofyn y cwestiwn ar ffurflen yn cael effaith. Hyd yn oed pe na bai yna gamau pellach, byddai hynny'n gwneud gwahaniaeth, yn fy marn i. 

I would say in terms of the list, it is a resource—I'm delighted to use it, and it's a very rich resource. It has increased the amount of information available, but I'm very fortunate to be in a situation where I'm used to using this kind of resource.

It draws on resources from various centuries and there are two languages used—three, as Latin is used. It's not very easy to go to and use if you're not used to it, as Eleri mentioned earlier, and authorities are not compelled, or required, to use those forms. There are guidelines that say that local authorities should consider, or give consideration, to the forms on the register.

In some counties, for example, if you wanted to change the name of your house, for example, they would include a link to the website. But, again, it's very difficult to know how to use that resource. Secondly, because we're assuming that it's okay for everyone to change a name, we allow the name change and then ask them whether they're sure that they want to change the name. So, over 50 years ago, the United Nations suggested guidance for place names and changes, and they suggested that unnecessary name changes were something to be avoided, but we don't take that approach because everyone is allowed to change names. What we do is we ask them, 'Well, have you looked at this?', after they've made the decision to change. So, in Ceredigion, for example, nobody changed their opinion back after making the application to change the name on that basis, in the very few examples there.

So, in terms of human rights, again, to look at Sweden, in that place the opinion that they take is that place names aren't owned by individuals, but they're part of society—society owns them. And, over time, if names have been part of the language, then that belongs to everyone. So, we take a different view here. They also say that you shouldn't change, or that place names won't be changed without good reason if that name is established. We don't take that stance. We say that people are free to change place names. So, I don't think there are legal arguments against that.

It becomes complex as we try to safeguard place names in recognising what names we want to safeguard and creating that long list of tens of thousands of names to safeguard. Perhaps we should think about that process when people apply to change the name of a house and they have to give a reason. I think just asking that would make people think again. We don't do that at the moment. In Sweden, they weigh up the reasons given for changing the names. Now, you could say that that would create a great deal of work, but, as we said earlier, authority by authority, I would think that there would be only four or five examples per year, so it wouldn't be a great deal of onerous work. It would avoid a situation in 50 years' time where thousands of names have changed.

The other thing that I find slightly strange in all of this is: say if you decide to change the name of your house, you look at the historic list and you decide not to change your opinion, you still want to change. You've bought a house or a farm, a name has been there for six centuries, you do it up and sell up after six months, with the name changed, and then the name has been changed. So, the new owners buy the house with a new name, and a decision is made, very easily and very suddenly, and then that's the status quo. So, you have six centuries lost in 10 minutes or so and there's no clear way of undoing that without you somehow letting the new owners know about the history of the place and starting the process anew. So, I think that the default arrangement in this country leads to names being changed, whereas in other countries the default is to maintain the names. So, I think that's the major change we'd need. I think even asking the question on the form would have an impact, even if no further steps were taken. I think that would have an impact. 

10:30

Mae'n adnodd, yn sicr, diddorol a defnyddiol i rai pobl, dwi'n meddwl. Mae pob math o amrywiaeth o enwau, fel dŷn ni wedi clywed yn barod gan Eleri a Dylan—mae pob math o amrywiaeth o enwau yn y rhestr yna, gan gynnwys 'Caernarvon'—gyda 'v'—y math yna o beth. Mae'r rhan fwyaf o'r enwau yna wedi dod o gyfnod pan oedd y Llywodraeth yn trio cael gwared ar y Gymraeg. Rŷn ni mewn cyfnod hollol wahanol erbyn hyn. Doeddwn i ddim yn gyfarwydd â'r rhestr, mae'n rhaid i fi ddweud, ond wnes i edrych arni ddoe ac mae yna gopïo anghywir hefyd o lefydd eraill, sy'n golygu bod yna enwau lawr yna sydd erioed wedi cael eu defnyddio, jest wedi cael eu camgopïo yn ddiweddar iawn i'r rhestr. Mae'r Ddeddf sy'n sefydlu'r rhestr yn dweud bod y rhestr i fod i gynorthwyo'r rheini sy'n gwneud penderfyniadau. Dwi'n meddwl bod hynny'n broblemus iawn o ystyried y rhestr fel y mae ar hyn o bryd, a holl natur y rhestr mewn gwirionedd. Byddwn i'n cytuno gyda beth y mae Dylan newydd ei ddweud: efallai bod rhoi rhestr mewn deddfwriaeth neu mewn is-ddeddfwriaeth ddim yn rhan o'r ateb, ond os yw e'n rhan o'r ateb, dyw'r rhestr yma yn sicr ddim yn addas ar gyfer gwneud hynny.

It's certainly an interesting and useful resource for some people. Now, there is a huge variety of names, as we've heard already from Eleri and Dylan, in that list, including 'Caernarvon'—with a 'v'—that kind of example. Most of those names have come from a time where the Government was actively against the Welsh language; we're in a very different phase now. I wasn't familiar with the list, I have to say, but I did have a look at it yesterday. There is some incorrect recording of information of place names, which means that there are some names listed there that have never been used. They've just been miscopied very recently to the list. The legislation establishing the list says that the list should assist those in making decisions. I think that's very problematic indeed, given the list as it currently stands, and the very nature of the list, if truth be told. I would agree with Dylan's point that perhaps putting a list in legislation or in subordinate legislation isn't part of the solution, but if it is part of the solution, this list certainly isn't fit for purpose.

10:35

Buaswn i eisiau pwysleisio fy mod yn gweld y rhestr yn arloesol ac yn bwysig ond yn gam cyntaf, ac yn sicr bod eisiau rhywbeth i bontio'r bwlch wedyn rhwng y ffurfiau yma sy'n cael eu cofnodi a'r cyngor sy'n cael ei roi i unigolion ac awdurdodau lleol. Hynny yw, rwy'n deall bod yna ryw gymaint o gymorth yn cael ei gynnig a bod y swyddogion sy'n gyfrifol am y rhestr yn barod iawn eu cymorth, ond bod eisiau gwneud y ffenest siop yna'n amlycach a, hynny yw, yn sicr bod eisiau rhywbeth i bontio'r bwlch gwybodaeth yna.

I would want to emphasise that I see the list as being very innovative and important, but it's a first step. Certainly, we need something to bridge the gap between the forms that are recorded and the support that is given to individuals and local authorities. I understand that there is some assistance provided and that the officials responsible for the list are very willing to help, but we need to make that shop window more prominent and we need something to bridge the gap in information.

Ocê. Ydych chi wedi gorffen?

Okay. Have you finished? 

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Beth felly sydd eisiau ei wneud? Dyna'r cwestiwn yn fy mhen i. Rwy'n credu ein bod ni'n hala gormod o amser yn dadlau a ddylai fod yna 't' yn Llansanffraid neu un 'm' neu ddwy 'm' yn Brynaman neu hyphen ym Mhencoed. Dwi ddim yn credu ei fod yn gwneud unrhyw fath o wahaniaeth i'r iaith.

Ond rwy'n credu bod Dylan wedi gwneud y pwynt yn gryf iawn. Rŷch chi'n newid enw dros nos ac mae etifeddiaeth o ganrifoedd yn cael ei golli, a dyw'r etifeddiaeth yna, y rhan fwyaf o'r amser, ddim yn dod nôl. So, beth roeddwn i'n meddwl jest gofyn i chi i gyd mewn ffordd yw hwn: pe buasai sefyllfa gyda ni lle byddai yna ragdybiaeth y dylai'r enw gwreiddiol Cymraeg sefyll, os nad oes yna reswm da dros newid yr enw—. Wrth gwrs y cwestiwn nesaf yw: beth yw rheswm da? Mae hwnna'n hynod o anodd i'w ddiffinio yn y gyfraith a dwi'n gallu gweld y llysoedd yn fishi dros ben pe buasai hwnna'n digwydd. So, ydym ni'n siarad—ac mae yna farn wahanol gyda chi i gyd—am system lle mae yna ragdybiaeth neu ydym ni'n siarad am system lle does dim hawl i newid enw, os taw enw Cymraeg yw e? Achos rwy'n credu y byddai o gymorth i fi i wybod beth yw eich barn chi o ran pa fath o system efallai fyddai'n gweithio orau.

Thank you, Chair. What needs to be done? That's the question in my mind. I think we're spending too much time arguing about whether there should be a 't' in Llansanffraid or one 'm' or two in Brynamman or a hyphen in Pencoed. I don't think it makes any difference to the language.

I think Dylan has made the point very strongly. You change a name overnight and then there's a legacy of centuries being lost, and very often, it won't come back. So, what I wanted to ask all of you in a way is: if we were in a situation where there was a presumption that the original Welsh name should stay, if there wasn't a good reason to change the name—. Of course, the next question is: what's a good reason for changing a name? That's very difficult to define in law and I can see the courts being very busy if that were to happen. And there is a difference of opinion amongst all of you, but are we talking about a system where there's a presumption or are we talking about a system where there's no right to change a name, if the original name is in Welsh? Because I think it would assist me to know what your opinion is as to what kind of system would work best.

Dwi'n meddwl bod yna ddau gwestiwn sylfaenol ac, i ryw raddau, efallai ein bod ni wedi bod yn neidio o un i'r llall yn fan hyn. Mae yna gwestiwn o enwau hanesyddol ac wedyn enwau Cymraeg. Mae yna lawer o newid o enwau hanesyddol Saesneg i rai Cymraeg yn rhan o ddiwylliant ardaloedd Cymraeg i gael enwau—. Weithiau mewn llefydd fel Aberaeron, mae'r tai wedi'u henwi ar ôl llongau neu eu henwi ar ôl trefi o bedwar ban y byd. Mae llu o bentrefi bach a threfi bach yng Nghymru gyda 'London House' neu 'Manchester House' neu 'Gothic House', a oedd yn llefydd a oedd yn apelio ar un adeg. Felly, mae'r math yna o enwau yn gallu cael eu newid ac, wrth gwrs, eu newid i'r Gymraeg. Felly, mae yna drafodaeth i'w chael yn fan yna sydd ychydig bach yn wahanol i'r drafodaeth ynglŷn â diogelu enwau hanesyddol beth bynnag ydy'r iaith.

Felly, mae'r cwestiwn o beth fyddai rheswm da yn gwestiwn y mae gwledydd eraill wedi edrych arno fo, ond yn sicr byddan nhw ddim yn ei weld fel rheswm da, er enghraifft, fod enw yn anodd i'w ynganu neu ei fod o'n swnio'n chwithig, a byddai'r math yna o resymau ieithyddol pur ddim yn cael eu defnyddio fel rhesymau digonol. Dwi'n meddwl ei bod bron yn amhosibl creu sefyllfa lle dydych chi ddim yn cael—hynny yw, eich bod yn gwrthod yn absoliwt i unrhyw un newid enw lle. Dwi ddim yn meddwl y byddai hwnna'n bosibl.

Dwi'n meddwl o ran beth i'w wneud, byddwn i'n edrych ar yr holl broses, fel dwi wedi awgrymu eisoes—meddwl am bethau fel pensaernïaeth dewis. Os yw pobl yn gwneud dewis i newid enw, beth ydy'r broses? Ac ar hyn o bryd, dwi'n meddwl bod y broses yn ei lle yn annog pobl i newid enwau heb feddwl am y peth. Dwi'n meddwl bod yn rhaid inni gael y 'meddwl' yn digwydd cyn y penderfyniad. Ar hyn o bryd, mae pobl yn cyflwyno cais i newid ac wedyn mae yna anogaeth iddyn nhw feddwl am y peth. Dwi'n meddwl bod angen inni ei droi o gwmpas a dwi'n meddwl bod angen i ni rhoi'r disgwyl bod pobl yn cyflwyno rheswm, hyd yn oed pe nai bai ond yn gofnod hanesyddol o pam bod y newid yna wedi digwydd. Hyd yn oed pe na bai yna graffu ar hynny, rwy'n meddwl byddai hwnna'n gam ymlaen oherwydd dwi'n meddwl byddai pobl yn ystyried yn fwy gofalus wedyn pam eu bod nhw'n newid yr enw, oherwydd mae pobl yn newid enwau heb sylweddoli pob math o bethau. Felly, dwi'n meddwl fyddai jest annog pobl i roi rheswm—.

Mi allech chi wedyn gael trefn yn fwy fel trefn Sweden, lle mae yna graffu wedyn ar y rhesymeg, a dweud, 'Ylwch, mae'n rhaid bod yna reswm da, ac mae'n rhaid i'r enw fod yn un hanesyddol.' Beth ydy ystyr hynny? Canrif, dwy genhedlaeth; dwyster a defnydd? Mae hwnna'n fater mwy cymhleth dydym ni ddim yn mynd i'w ddatrys rŵan, ond mae hyn yn digwydd mewn llefydd eraill. Ac wedyn, maen nhw'n gallu wedyn penderfynu gwrthod, hynny yw, gwrthod enwau, ond mae angen trefn a chorff i wneud hynny. Ond eto, beth fyddwn i'n pwysleisio ydy, o flwyddyn i flwyddyn nifer fechan iawn o enwau ydy hi. Y broblem ydy: lle fyddwn ni mewn cenhedlaeth neu ddwy, os ydy hyn yn digwydd?

I think there are two fundamental questions there and, to a certain extent, we've been jumping from one to the other. There is a question of historical names and then Welsh names. There is a great deal of change from historical English names to Welsh and it's part of the culture of Welsh-speaking areas to have names—. Sometimes, in places like Aberaeron, houses are named after ships or towns across the world. In towns and villages across Wales, you have a number of examples of 'London House' or 'Manchester House' or 'Gothic House', which were appealing to people at one time in our history. So, those kinds of names can be changed and changed to Welsh. So, there's some discussion to be had there, which is slightly different to the discussion on safeguarding historic place names, whatever the language.

So, the question as to what a good reason would look like is a question that other nations have considered, but certainly they wouldn't consider a name being difficult to pronounce or the fact that it sounds clumsy to be good reasons. Those types of purely linguistic reasons wouldn't be used as sufficient justification. I think it's almost impossible to create a situation where you reject absolutely any name change. I don't think that would be possible.

I think, in terms of what should be done, I would look at the whole process, as I've suggested and think of things such as choice architecture. If people make a choice to change a name, well, what's the process? I think that the process that's in place now encourages people to change names without even thinking about it. I think that we need to have the 'thinking' happening before they make that decision. At the moment, people present an application to make a change and then they're encouraged to think about it. I think we need to turn that around and we need to expect that people provide a reason, even if it's just a historical record as to why that name change happened. Even if there were no scrutiny of that, I think that would be a step forward because I think that people would consider more carefully why they were changing the name, because people change names without realising all sorts of things. So, just encouraging people to give a reason would be a step forward.

You could then have a system that is more akin to the Swedish system, where there is some scrutiny of the rationale and you'd have to say, 'There has to be a good reason, and the name has to be historical.' What does that mean? A century, two generations; common usage? Now, that's a complex issue that we're not going to solve today, but it does happen elsewhere. And then they can decide to reject the name change, but you do need some system or some body to make those decisions. But what I would emphasise is that, from year to year, we see very few names changed. The problem is: where will we be in a generation or two, if this continues?

10:40

Byddai Cymdeithas yr Iaith yn dadlau na ddylid newid enwau. Hynny yw, nid dim ond rhagdybiaeth neu nid dim ond rhoi rheswm, ond na ddylid newid enwau Cymraeg i enwau ieithoedd eraill yn y bôn. Ac mae wastad y posibilrwydd, os nad yw'r enw'n hanesyddol a'i fod yn enw Cymraeg a bod rhywun ddim yn hoffi'r enw Cymraeg, byddai modd efallai i bobl rhoi enw Cymraeg arall ar y tŷ yn hytrach na dewis enw—Saesneg fel arfer, ond hefyd ieithoedd eraill—sydd â dim cysylltiad â'r ardal yna.

Cymdeithas yr Iaith would argue that names should not be changed. That is, there shouldn't just be a presumption or the ability to give a reason; Welsh names should not be changed into other languages. And there's always the possibility that if a name isn't historical and it's a Welsh name, and one doesn't like that name, then perhaps you could give the house another Welsh name rather than choosing an English name usually or a name in other languages that have no connection to the area.

Dwi'n meddwl buaswn i'n cytuno'n fras iawn â Dylan. Hynny yw, er tristed colli rhai enwau, dwi'n meddwl, hynny yw, eich bod chi'n symud i dir anodd iawn pan rŷch chi'n cyfyngu ar hawliau pobl i newid enwau a bod yn rhaid edrych yn ofalus ar ba enwau rŷn ni'n sôn amdanyn nhw a pha rhai sy'n arwyddocaol neu'n bwysig mewn gwirionedd, ond yn sicr bod eisiau edrych ar beth y mae awdurdodau lleol yn gallu ei wneud i ddwyn perswâd ar bobl i gadw enwau lle mae'r rheini'n rhai arwyddocaol.

Broadly speaking, I would agree with Dylan. Although it is tragic to lose some names, I think you're entering very difficult ground when you restrict people's rights to change names and I think you'd have to look very carefully at which names we are talking about and which are significant or important. But certainly, we need to look at what local authorities can do to persuade people to keep names where they do have significance.

Mae yna gategorïau gwahanol o enwau, wrth gwrs, ond dwi'n meddwl bydden ni'n derbyn yr egwyddor yr oedd Dylan yn sôn amdano fe yr oedden nhw'n defnyddio yn Sweden, rwy'n credu, lle'r egwyddor yw, pan rŷch chi'n prynu tŷ, dŷch chi ddim o reidrwydd yn prynu'r holl hawl ar yr enw yna ac i gael gwared ar yr enw yna. Os yw hwnna'n enw sydd yna ers canrifoedd, rŷn ni yma am gyfnod byr ar y ddaear a byddwn i'n dadlau bod yr enw yna'n perthyn i'r gymuned ac i'r genedl.

There are different categories of names, of course, but I think we would accept the principle that Dylan was talking about in terms of Sweden, I believe, where the principle is that, when you buy a house, you're not necessarily buying all rights relating to that name or to get rid of that name. If that's a name that has been there for centuries, then we are here for a short period of time on this earth and I would argue that that name belongs to the community and to the nation.

Jest un pwynt a wnaeth fy nharo i, byddai sawl un yn dweud bod hwn yn fater o hawliau dynol a bod gan bobl yr hawl i enwi eu heiddo yn unrhyw ffordd maen nhw'n moyn. Dwi ddim yn derbyn hwnna. Ond, wrth gwrs, mae yna enghreifftiau sydd ddim cweit yr un peth, ond jest yn rhywbeth i edrych arnyn nhw: mewn rhai gwledydd, sef Ffrainc a Gwlad yr Iâ, does dim hawl i chi rhoi enw i'ch plentyn heb fod yr enw hwnnw'n dod o restr swyddogol. Nawr, dyw plant ddim yn eiddo, wrth gwrs—wel, y ffordd arall rownd bydden i'n dweud—. Roedd tamaid bach o sôn yn fanna oddi wrthych chi, Eleri, ar y diwedd, ond jest i wneud y pwynt, dwi ddim yn credu bod hwnna'n rhwystriad yn erbyn rhoi rhyw fath o waharddiad, i dithau, Osian, a rhyw fath o ragdybiaeth felly i Dylan. Dwi ddim yn credu ei fod yn unrhyw fath o rwystr rhag gwneud hynna.

Just one thing that struck me, many people would say that this is a matter of human rights and that people have the right to name their property in any way that they choose. Now, I wouldn't accept that, but, of course, there are examples that aren't quite the same, but it is something to consider: in some countries, such as France and Iceland, you don't have the right to name your child unless that name is included on an official list. Now, children aren't property, of course—I would say it's the other way around, if anything—. There was some mention there from you, Eleri, at the end, but just to say that I don't think that that is a barrier to some kind of ban, as Osian mentioned, or presumption as Dylan mentioned. I don't think there are any barriers in terms of introducing those approaches.

Oes sylw ar hynny? Does dim rhaid i chi.

Any comments on that? You don't have to comment.

Efallai nage cwestiwn oedd e; efallai jest barn oedd e.

Perhaps it wasn't a question, but just an opinion.

Doeddwn i ddim yn gwybod am y rhestr yng Ngwlad yr Iâ. Diddorol iawn. David Melding.

I didn't know about that list in Iceland. Very interesting. David Melding.

I think what I'm struggling with this morning is that I've not really heard anything about what sort of hierarchy we could reasonably have. Why does the community suddenly have an interest in a name? It seems to me that, with the vast number of properties in Wales, the name is something that reasonably can be left to the property holder. However, I completely accept there's a certain placeness that attaches to some properties. A very clear category, I think, are farmhouses and the land surrounding, because that has a deep effect on how we imagine our country and the names we've used—. We wouldn't change a mountain capriciously or change the name of a mountain capriciously. That I get, and I think that is reasonable. And I don't think it's beyond the wit of man to have some sort of scheme where there's an element of enforcement, which we will come on to in a moment. But, in most urban areas, an awful lot of properties, they'll have a Welsh or English name over the arch of the door, often, that just comes from the late nineteenth century, the various names that were very popular at that time.

However, you will also sometimes have houses that get referred to by way of directions and identifying more the general area. They're usually larger houses, though not always—a corner house, for instance. But that's where we kind of need to get, isn't it? Some sort of definition where we don't have this sort of terrible nanny-state approach where we just don't want naff English names getting used. Presumably sometimes it works the other way, and people come in and they don't like some of the—you know, the Victorians didn't always get it right, and they change it to names that are more redolent of, in this case, Welsh heritage. I don't know how Sweden do this, but let's hear something that would be rigorous enough for us to reasonably apply.

10:45

Eto, rydym ni mewn ffordd yn dod yn ôl i'r cwestiwn o ddiffinio pwysigrwydd enw a phwysigrwydd enw dros amser. Mae yna fflyd o enwau Fictorianaidd, wrth gwrs, yn ein pentrefi a'n trefi ni mewn ardaloedd Cymraeg a Saesneg fel ei gilydd—hynny yw, Mount Pleasants, Belle Vues yn bob man. Yn amlwg, fyddwn i o bosib ddim yn teimlo y byddwn i'n gwrthod hawl i rywun newid enw fel yna. Dwi heb ddadlau o blaid cael deddfwriaeth sydd yn gwrthod yr hawl i newid, a dwi'n meddwl byddai unrhyw un fyddai am newid enw o'r math yna, byddech chi'n gallu dweud bod hynny ddim yn afresymol o gwbl. Ond eto, byddwn i'n dal yn argymell ein bod yn gofyn i bobl esbonio'r rhesymeg cyn newid ac felly bod y meddwl, fel petai, yn digwydd cyn y cais, yn lle rŵan, mae'r cais yn dod ac mae'r meddwl yn digwydd wedyn. Mae inertia, wrth gwrs, pobl sydd wedi penderfynu, dydyn nhw ddim yn debyg o ddad-wneud y penderfyniad.

Hynny yw, mae modd, wrth gwrs, i fynd drwy'r wlad i gyd a gwahaniaethu rhwng fferm a thŷ teras. Mae'n mynd yn gymhleth yn Grangetown, lle mae gyda chi fferm yn Grangetown sydd erbyn hyn ar waelod rhes deras o dai. Felly, dwi'n gweld hynny'n waith mawr iawn a chymhleth iawn. Fel roeddwn i'n dweud, byddwn i ar hyn o bryd yn oedi efallai cyn mynd lawr y llwybr o geisio diffinio pob anheddiad neu bob enw yn ôl a ydy'n cwrdd â'r meini prawf neu ddim, gadael i'r rhan fwyaf ohonyn nhw fod, oni bai bod yna rhywbeth yn codi. Fel roeddwn i'n dweud, does dim llawer yn codi, felly mae'r nifer yn ddigon bychan i allu delio â beth sy'n codi, dwi'n meddwl, heb fynd i gymhlethdodau mawr.

Mae yna bryderon y tu hwnt i aneddiadau, wrth gwrs. Rwy'n gwybod bod y Gymdeithas Enwau Lleoedd wedi gweithio gyda llwybr arfordir Môn i gael enwau Cymraeg ar gyfer y camau gwahanol ar y llwybr a'r pwyntiau gwahanol ar hyd yr arfordir. Felly, mae yna waith gwirfoddol yn digwydd, a dwi'n meddwl bod angen cefnogi'r gwaith yna gan wahanol gymdeithasau sydd yn aml iawn yn agored iawn, iawn i roi enwau Cymraeg a defnyddio enwau Cymraeg sydd yn bodoli mewn sefyllfa lle byddai'n anodd iawn gweld sut byddai deddfwriaeth yn gallu helpu'r sefyllfa.

Ond, fel roeddwn i'n dweud, dwi'n meddwl efallai mai'r camgymeriad yn y gorffennol ydy meddwl bod modd creu rhestr sydd yn gosod pob enw sydd gyda ni mewn categori. Byddwn i'n dueddol o gamu nôl a gadael iddyn nhw fod y rhan fwyaf ohonyn nhw nes bod yna gwestiwn penodol yn codi. Mae yna ychydig o waith i'w wneud wedyn o ran newid enw a beth sy'n rhesymol neu beth fyddai'n rheswm rhesymol. Ond, dydy mynd drwy'r llyfr ffôn, fel petai, yn ticio pob un enw ddim yn rhywbeth ymarferol, yn fy marn i.

Again, in a way we're coming back to the question of defining the importance of a name and the importance of a name over time. There are numerous Victorian names in towns and villages in English and Welsh-speaking areas—such as Mount Pleasants and Belle Vues everywhere. Clearly, perhaps we would not feel that we would refuse people the right to change that kind of name. I haven't argued in favour of having legislation that refuses the right to change, but I think that anyone who would want to change that kind of name, you could say that that isn't unreasonable at all. But again, I would still recommend that we should ask people to explain the reasoning and rationale before they change, and that they think before applying, whereas now, the application comes first and then the thought comes later. Then due to inertia, because people have already made their minds up, they are unlikely to change their minds. 

Of course, we could go throughout the country and differentiate between farms and terraced houses. Although, in Grangetown, we have a farm in Grangetown that is now the end of a terrace. So, I see that as a major job of work to do and it would be very complex. I would perhaps pause before going along that route and trying to define every dwelling and name according to certain criteria. We should leave most of them alone unless something arises. As I say, not many cases do arise, so the numbers are small enough for us to be able to cope with what arises without complicating the situation. 

But there are concerns beyond dwellings. I know that the Welsh Place-name Society has worked with the Anglesey coastal path to have Welsh place names for the different stages of that route and points along the coastline. So, there is voluntary work happening, and I think we need to support that work by different organisations that very often are very open to using Welsh place names in a situation where it would be very difficult to see where legislation could assist that situation.

But, as I say, perhaps the mistake in the past has been thinking that one can create a list that sets down every name that we have in a particular category. I would say that we should step back until a specific question arises. There is some work to be done then on thinking about what a reasonable reason for changing a name would be. But, going through the phone book and ticking every name in a category would not be practical, in my opinion. 

Byddwn i'n cytuno â hynny o ran ymarferoldeb llunio rhestr. Ac wrth gwrs, o ran Cymdeithas yr Iaith, byddem ni eisiau diogelu enwau llefydd Cymraeg. Felly, wrth gwrs, os yw rhywun eisiau newid enw eu tŷ o Mount Pleasant i rywbeth Cymraeg, byddai unrhyw beth byddem ni yn ei gefnogi ddim yn effeithio ar hynny. Wrth gwrs, byddwn i'n derbyn hefyd fod yna gategorïau gwahanol o safbwynt—. Fe wnaethoch chi sôn am ffermydd, ac wedyn mae yna adeiladau mwy fel tafarnau ac ati. Mae yna adeiladau sydd ag arwyddocâd i bobl, onid oes, mewn cymuned, sydd fwy fyth yn eiddo i'r gymuned nag enwau tai unigol. Dwi'n meddwl, o ran Cymdeithas yr Iaith, dŷn ni ddim wedi mynd i fanylder mawr o ran datblygu syniadau yn y maes yma, ac mae eisiau trafod y peth, ond yn sicr o ran y cynigion yn 2017, i ni, doedden nhw ddim beth byddem ni wedi hoffi ei weld o ran amddiffyn enwau Cymraeg.

Ond, fel gwnes i sôn reit ar y dechrau, dwi'n meddwl llawn mor bwysig â diogelu enwau hanesyddol a chanolbwyntio ar enwau tai—mae enwau strydoedd a datblygiadau newydd yn hollbwysig. Dŷn ni eisiau edrych ymlaen ac i'r dyfodol gyda'r Gymraeg. Polisi newydd cyngor Caerdydd yw bydd pob stryd newydd yn cael enw Cymraeg, ac mae yna banel o arbenigwyr fydd yn llunio'r enwau yna yn hytrach na bod nhw jest yn unrhyw enw off top pen rhywun. Dŷn ni'n meddwl dylai fod pob sir yn efelychu hynny, yn sicr. 

Mae yna hefyd enwau, wrth gwrs, ar y datblygiadau tai—rhyw enw marchnata mae'r cwmnïau yn ei roi. Dwi'n meddwl—mae yna un yng Nghaerdydd; Regency Park yw'r enw, dwi'n meddwl. Mae hwnnw'n enw a fydd yn cael ei—er nad yw e yn enw swyddogol ar stryd na phentref na dim byd, bydd e'n dod yn enw ar ddatblygiad a bydd yn cael ei ddefnyddio, felly dylai'r enwau yna fod yn Gymraeg hefyd.

I would agree with that in terms of the practicality of drawing up a huge list. And of course, from a Cymdeithas yr Iaith point of view, we would want to safeguard Welsh place names. So, if one wanted to change their house name from Mount Pleasant to a Welsh name, anything that we would support wouldn't have an impact on that. But I would also accept that there are different categories—. You mentioned farms, and there are larger buildings, such as pubs and so on. There are buildings that have significance for people within communities, and they belong to the community even more than the names of individual dwellings. From a Cymdeithas yr Iaith perspective, we haven't gone into huge detail in terms of developing ideas in this area, and we do need to discuss it further, but certainly the proposals made in 2017, for us, weren't what we would have wanted to have seen in terms of safeguarding Welsh place names.

But, as I mentioned at the very outset, I think just as important as safeguarding historical place names or focusing on house names—the naming of new developments is just as important. We need to look to the future for the Welsh language. The new policy for Cardiff council is that every new street will be given a Welsh name, and there's a panel of specialists that will draw up those names, rather than them being plucked out of the air, as it were. We believe that every county should do likewise.

There are also names given to housing developments—it's usually a marketing name that the companies come up with. There's one in Cardiff; I think it's called Regency Park. That's a name that, although it isn't an official name of a street or a village, will become the name used for the development, and we think that should be a Welsh name too.

10:50

Buaswn i'n bachu ar rai o'r sylwadau yna i fynd ar drywydd ychydig yn wahanol hefyd, a phwysleisio'r angen am adeiladu adnoddau a chapasiti yn y maes. Mae polisi arfaethedig Caerdydd i'w groesawu'n fawr. Mae'n uchelgeisiol o ran y Gymraeg a'n treftadaeth ni, ac maen nhw'n mynd i gael panel o arbenigwyr i'w cynorthwyo nhw yn hynny. Mae eisiau hyfforddi ein harbenigwyr ni, ond mae hefyd eisiau ymgysylltu'n lleol a sicrhau bod llais pobl leol, cymdeithasau hanes lleol, yn rhan o benderfyniadau fel yna, fel bod y gymuned yn teimlo perchnogaeth dros unrhyw enwau newydd.

Dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n arwyddocaol pa mor rymus yw llais cymuned yn gallu bod pan ydym ni'n sôn am newid enwau. Os ydym ni'n meddwl am rai enwau a gafodd lot o sylw yn y wasg ac yn lleol—enwau fel Plas Glynllifon a Llechwedd—gwyrdrowyd y penderfyniadau yna yn dilyn protest a barn leol. Hynny yw, mae'n gylch, onid yw e, o ran addysgu pobl yn lleol a sicrhau eu bod nhw'n ymfalchïo yn eu henwau. Wedyn, mae hynny'n ffordd o osgoi ambell broblem hefyd yn y pen draw.

I would focus on some of those points made and emphasise the need to build resources and capacity in this field. The proposed policy in Cardiff is very much to be welcomed. It's ambitious in terms of the Welsh language and our heritage, and they're going to have a panel of experts to assist them in that endeavour. We need to train our experts, but we also need to engage locally and ensure that the voice of local people, local history societies, are part of those decisions so that the community does feel ownership over any new names.

I think it's significant as well how powerful the community voice can be when we're talking about changing names. If we think about some names that did receive a great deal of attention in the press and locally, such as Plas Glynllifon and Llechwedd, those decisions were overturned as a result of protests and the local voice being expressed. So, it's a circle, isn't it, in terms of educating people locally and ensuring that they take pride in their local names. That's a way of avoiding a few problems, ultimately.

Okay. I mean, I get new names in urban areas particularly—you know, we have too many Acacia Avenues. And I'm now going to get lots of e-mails from people living on one of them, no doubt. You're trying to add to and maintain the richness of life and have a real interest in names, and that's to the good, but I'm still not sure how we preserve certain names. It can't be arbitrary, can it? If someone wants to change a name, they're going to say, 'Well, you know, this other person was allowed to do it; we're not with our property'. So, there need to be criteria or we're just extolling people to think twice. I think Mr Evans has already said that this does not seem to be very effective in Ceredigion—people just plough on and do the same thing. We list buildings, so should we be listing certain place names? 

Mae modd gwneud hynny, ac, wrth gwrs, mae yna gofrestr o safleoedd hanesyddol, onid oes—henebion ac ati—ac mae'r enwau yna yn rhan o'r gofrestr, onid ydyn nhw? Felly, mae'r enwau yna, fel petai, yn gysylltiedig â'r lleoedd yna. Byddai creu rhestr gynhwysfawr o bob un enw jest yn job anferthol, oni fyddai, a byddai'n cadw fi ac Eleri James fan hyn mewn swydd am lot yn fwy na hanner canrif.

Roeddwn i'n digwydd bod yr wythnos yma yn edrych ar ddogfennau yn ymwneud ag ystâd Cefn Mabli yn yr hen sir Fynwy. Mae cannoedd o enwau Cymraeg ar y caeau yn y fan yna, pob math—enwau cymysg a phob math o rai diddorol iawn. Dydyn nhw ddim yn cael eu defnyddio rŵan, wrth gwrs, ond efallai byddan nhw maes o law, ond dydyn nhw ddim yn enwau hanesyddol rŵan sydd ar dir i gael eu diogelu. Byddai creu rhestr, wedyn—byddai fo'n waith ychydig bach fel paentio'r Forth bridge. Mi fyddai'n waith diddiwedd, mewn ffordd, wrth i ddatblygiadau newydd ddod, tai newydd. Gallwch chi gael tŷ sydd yn newydd ond yr enw yn hanesyddol. Felly, dwi yn gweld hynny yn dasg fawr iawn.

Dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni'n casglu llawer iawn yn fwy o wybodaeth, ac mae'r gwaith y mae'r comisiwn henebion yn ei wneud yn hynod, hynod o werthfawr ac yn adnodd gwych. Felly, mae gennym ni fwy o arfogaeth nag oedd gennym ni, ond, eto, allaf i ddim meddwl am unrhyw le arall sydd wedi creu rhestr o'r holl aneddiadau posib ac wedyn eu dosbarthu nhw i gategorïau yn ôl a ydyn nhw'n hanesyddol neu'n werth eu cadw neu rywbeth. Byddwn i'n gweld hwnna'n—.

That could be done, and, of course, there is a register of historical sites—monuments and so on—and those names are part of the list, so those names are connected to the places. Creating a comprehensive list of every name would be just a huge task, which would keep me and Eleri James in work for much more than half a century.

As it happens, I was looking at documents relating to the Cefn Mably estate in old Monmouthsire. There were hundreds of Welsh names on the fields there, and there were some very interesting mixed names too. They're not used now, of course, but perhaps they may be in the future, but they're not historical names now that are due to be safeguarded. Creating a list would be slightly like painting the Forth bridge. It would be endless, in a way, as new developments are brought forward. You can have a new house with a historical name, and I do see that as being a major task.

I think we are gathering far more information, and the work that the Royal Commission on ancient and historical monuments is doing is excellent and it's an excellent tool. But, again, I can't think of anywhere else that has created a list of all possible names and then distributed them into categories as to whether they are historical and worthy of preservation. I would see that as—.

10:55

Ond mae yna restrau—. Buoch chi'n sôn am fynyddoedd yn gynt yn eich sylwadau yn ogystal ag enwau ffermydd. Hynny yw, mae yna wledydd—mae yna batrymau amlwg iawn lle mae pobl wedi deddfu ynghylch enwau tirweddol, mynyddoedd, afonydd, dyffrynnoedd, a bod rheini'n ffurfiau sydd i fod i gael eu cadw a'u defnyddio gan gyrff cyhoeddus ac yn y blaen. Wedyn byddai modd meddwl am lunio'r rhestr genedlaethol ar y lefel honno, a dyw'r enwau yna ddim yn eiddo i unigolion. Hynny yw, maen nhw'n eiddo mwy cenedlaethol, te. Byddai modd edrych ar fodelau cyffelyb mewn gwledydd eraill.

But there is a list—. You talked about mountains earlier in your comments as well as the names of farms. But there are nations—there are clear patterns where people have legislated in terms of names in the landscape, mountains, rivers and valleys and so on, and that they're forms that should be maintained and used by public bodies and so on. So, we could think about putting together a national list and register on that basis. Those names aren't owned by individuals. They're national property, as it were. So, we could look at models like that in other countries. 

Does dim grym statudol i unrhyw restr sy'n bodoli rŵan, nac oes? Mae gan y comisiynydd banel sydd yn argymell ffurfiau, ond dydyn nhw ddim yn statudol. Mae rhestr gan y comisiwn brenhinol, ond, eto, mae'n statudol i ystyried y rheini mewn rhai amgylchiadau, ond dydy o ddim yn statudol i'w defnyddio nhw. Dydy o ddim hyd yn oed yn statudol i gyrff cyhoeddus neu gyrff sydd yn derbyn grantiau cyhoeddus i ddefnyddio'r enwau yna, nac ydy? Felly, byddai modd gweithredu yn fan yna, byddwn i'n tybio.

There's no statutory force for any list that exists at the moment, is there? The commissioner has a panel that makes recommendations, but they're non-statutory. The list by the royal commission—it's statutory to consider those in certain circumstances, but it's not statutory to use them. It's not statutory for public bodies or bodies in receipt of public money to use them, even. So, we could take action there, I suppose. 

Okay. Well, let's get to a conclusion, then. So, the only way this operates is the presumption is you can't change the name unless you set out a case for change and that the communal right trumps any human right that may be attached to this—and I'm not saying I particularly believe it's a human right to name a farmhouse you've just bought; I think fairly tight definitions of human rights are generally helpful for enforcement reasons, again. But that seems to be your position, if I have grasped it correctly. 

Dwi'n meddwl, pan ydym ni'n sôn am un categori, ac efallai categori bychan ydy o—. Pan ydym ni'n sôn am eiddo unigol sydd yn cael ei newid drwy'r prosesau sydd yn nwylo awdurdodau lleol ar hyn o bryd—dyna dwi'n sôn amdano fo fan yna— mae yna gyfle fan yna oherwydd mae yna broses yn gorfod digwydd, mae yna waith papur sy'n gorfod digwydd, a byddwn i'n argymell edrych yn ofalus ar y gwaith papur yna, symud y gofyniad, fel petai, ar bobl i—.

Hynny yw: beth sy'n digwydd nawr? Maen nhw'n cyflwyno'r cais, wedyn maen nhw'n derbyn llythyr, 'Ydych chi'n siŵr?', 'Beth am i chi edrych ar hyn a'r llall?' Wel, mae hwnna'n—. Hynny yw, byddai unrhyw un yn teimlo bod yna broses yn fan yna, a nod y broses, i ryw raddau, ydy sicrhau bod pobl yn ystyried o ddifrif y newid. Wel, mae'r holl beth tu chwith allan, onid ydy? Mae'r ystyriaeth yn digwydd ar ddiwedd y broses, nid ar y cychwyn. Felly, mae yna gategori bychan o enwau fan yna, fel roeddwn i'n ei ddweud, lle mae yna broses ffurfiol lle mae pobl yn newid enwau, ond mae yna gonsern llawer iawn ehangach na hynny, dwi'n meddwl, ynglŷn â newid enwau sydd yn digwydd yn anffurfiol, fel dŷn ni wedi ei glywed gan Pam Whitham gynnau ynglŷn ag arwyddion yn mynd i fyny, ac, wrth gwrs, mae rheini'n cael eu defnyddio, yn cael eu cydnabod, maen nhw'n mynd ar bob math o fapiau anffurfiol. Mae yna fwy o fapio torfol rŵan yn digwydd ac mae enwau'n newid fel yna. Mae pobl yn gallu, wrth gwrs, bwydo enwau i mewn i'w mapiau digidol eu hunain, ac mae rhywun yn gweld hyn mewn sawl maes eisoes, ac felly mae'r newidiadau yna'n llawer iawn fwy anodd cael gafael arnyn nhw. Fan yna, dwi'n meddwl, efallai, mae yna le i gael yr enwau pwysicaf, hynny yw, tirweddol yna—i roi statws statudol iddyn nhw, bod disgwyl i lywodraeth leol, Llywodraeth Cymru, cyrff cyhoeddus, cyrff sydd yn derbyn grantiau sylweddol, o bosib, i ddefnyddio'r ffurfiau hynny.

I think, when we're talking about one category, and it might be a small category—. When we're talking about individual property that is changed through the processes in the hands of local authorities at the moment—that's what I'm talking about in this instance—there is an opportunity there. There is a process that has to be followed, there's paperwork that needs to be done. I suggest that we should look very closely at that paperwork to move the requirement.

What happens at the moment is that they apply and then they receive a letter to ask them if they're sure, if they've looked at this, that and the other. Well, I don't think anyone would feel—. There's a process there, and the aim of the process is to ensure that they take this decision seriously. Well, it's putting the cart before the horse, isn't it? The consideration happens at the end of the process, not the start. So, there is a very small category there that we could focus on, where's a formal process where people change names, but there is a much wider concern in terms of changing names that happens informally, as we heard earlier from Pam Whitham about signs and so on. Those are used, they're recognised, they go on all kinds of informal maps. There is more crowd-based mapping happening at the moment and names change in that way and names can be changed on digital maps instantly and we've seen that happening. So, those changes are very difficult to get to grips with, and so I think those landscape names are very important to consider. We need to place them on a statutory footing, for the Welsh Government, local authorities, public bodies, grant-receiving bodies and so on to use those forms. 

A bod yna adnoddau addysgu da yn mynd law yn llaw â hynny. Hynny yw, os edrychwch chi ar Iwerddon a'r math o gronfa ddata a'r enwau lleoedd sydd gyda nhw yn Iwerddon, maen nhw llawer iawn ar y blaen i ni o ran rhannu adnoddau addysgol, rhannu gemau. Hynny yw, nid yn unig maen nhw'n deddfu ynghylch pa ffurfiau ar enwau i'w defnyddio, mae yna bethau wedyn o ran ymwneud ac ymgysylltu â'r cyhoedd ynglŷn â'r enwau hynny, ac rydym ni yn sicr yn bell tu ôl i hynny ar hyn o bryd. 

And there should be educational resources along with that. If you look at Ireland and the kind of place name database they have there, they're way ahead of us in terms of sharing educational resources, sharing games. Not only have they legislated in terms of which forms should be used, there are then things in terms of public engagement related to those names, and we are certainly way behind in that regard at the moment. 

Mae cwricwlwm newydd sydd yn dod yn gyfle gwych i gysylltu hanes yr iaith, tirwedd, defnydd tir, newid dros amser, diwydiannu. Hynny yw, mae yna—. Pan wyf i wedi gwneud sesiwn gydag ysgolion, dyna'r pethau rydym ni'n edrych arnyn nhw—y math yna o beth, lle mae enwau lleoedd yn rhan o'r peth ond yn draws-gwricwlar yn y ffordd yna. Felly, dwi'n meddwl rydym ni ar ei hôl hi yn hynny o beth, sydd ar un lefel yn od mewn gwlad ddwyieithog sydd i fod yn eithaf ymwybodol o'r pethau yma. Ond dwi'n meddwl yn fwy eang gyda threftadaeth ddiwylliannol anghyffyrddadwy—hynny yw, treftadaeth sydd ddim yn rhywbeth dŷch chi'n gallu rhoi mewn amgueddfa neu sydd yn adeilad—rydym ni yng Nghymru ac ym Mhrydain wedi bod yn araf deg iawn yn ymateb i'r agenda yna. Dwi'n gwybod am y diddordeb sydd mewn llefydd fel Tsieina yn y math yna o agenda rŵan a rydym ni wedi bod yn gyndyn iawn—. Dydy Prydain ddim yn ymwneud â'r agenda yna ar lefel y Cenhedloedd Unedig ac UNESCO, er enghraifft. Dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni'n gweld hyn yn dod trwodd yn y ffaith ein bod ni ar ei hôl hi, braidd, o'i gymharu â gwledydd eraill fel Iwerddon sydd yn ymwneud â’r maes yna.

There's a new curriculum coming, and that's an excellent way of connecting and engaging with the history of the language, landscape, land use, change over time, industry. When I've held sessions in schools, that's what we do: we focus on place names in that cross-curricular sense. And I think we're behind in that regard, which is strange in a bilingual nation that has been quite aware of these issues. But I think more widely with cultural heritage—intangible heritage that is something that you can't put in a museum or in a building—we in Wales and the UK have been very slow in responding to that particular agenda. I know the interest that there is in China in that kind of agenda at the moment, and we've been loath—. The UK isn't involved in that agenda on a United Nations or UNESCO level. I think we see this coming through in the fact that we're behind places such as Ireland that are involved in this area.

11:00

And, finally from me, this issue of spelling: the form that's given, whether a hyphen is used or not and all that. Consistency in spelling is obviously a very modern concept in all languages, linked to literacy and the availability of dictionaries. Languages always have to cope with forms that pass into a static, archaic state, then, and that happens with places as well. So, what's your approach there? Or are you fairly flexible, in that, presumably, if a community is comfortable with spelling a place name in a certain way that may not completely be now in accord with what some purists would want—? Should we be fairly relaxed about that?

Gallaf i ddechrau ar hynny, gan ein bod ni'n gyfrifol am argymell ffurfiau safonol enwau lleoedd. Dwi'n meddwl bod yna bwyntiau wedi cael eu gwneud yn gynharach amboutu'r ffaith bod enwau lleoedd ac enwau personol yn perthyn i'r iaith hefyd. Wedyn, mae'r cwestiwn yma o bwy sydd biau enwau lleoedd yn gallu bod yn anodd, ac wrth gwrs mae yna gymuned leol sy'n teimlo perchnogaeth dros enw eu pentref nhw. Ond mae'n rhaid inni dderbyn hefyd bod pobl o rannau eraill o Gymru eisiau cyfeirio at y pentref hwnnw, eisiau gwybod sut mae ei sillafu, ac yn disgwyl bod enw yn cydymffurfio â rheolau safonol yr iaith, te.

Mae gyda ni sefyllfa unigryw gyda'r Gymraeg oherwydd—neu unigryw ym Mhrydain, te o ran y Gymraeg—bod yr iaith Gymraeg yn trio ei gwneud hi'n hawdd i bobl o ran ynganiad. Mae'n trio bod yn iaith ffonetig, ac mae yna ymgais i sillafu enwau lleoedd yn y ffordd maen nhw'n cael eu hynganu. Dyw hynny ddim yn wir ym mhobman. Yn sicr dyw e ddim yn wir yn Lloegr pan ydych chi'n meddwl am enwau fel Worcester, Derby, Leominster, ac yn y blaen. Hynny yw, mae'r hyn rydym ni'n trio cyrraedd ato fe yn y system ar gyfer y Gymraeg yn wahanol.

Mae'n gallu teimlo fel mater bach, a ydych chi'n cynnwys cysylltnod ai peidio. Roedd yr Aelod yn sôn am enw Friars Walk yng Nghasnewydd. Mae pobl yn cyffroi—oes eisiau collnod ai peidio? Wrth gwrs, rydym ni’n gorfod delio â’r cwestiynau yma i gyd wrth geisio cynnig ffurfiau safonol.

Ond dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n bwysig gwneud y pwynt yn gyffredinol, heb sôn am fanylion orgraffyddol, bod setlo ar ffurfiau safonol yn hollbwysig i weinyddu'n gyhoeddus yn effeithiol. Hynny yw, mae enw i fod yn label cyfleus ac effeithiol hefyd er mwyn sicrhau gwasanaethau, sicrhau bod gwasanaethau brys yn gallu cyrraedd, gwybod pa ffurfiau rŷch chi'n eu rhoi ar fap a bod beth sydd ar fap yr un peth â sydd ar arwydd ac mewn cronfa ddata. Hynny yw, does neb yn meddwl bod eisiau inni fod yn haearnaidd ym mhob rhan o fywyd. Does dim eisiau i bob clwb rygbi newid y ffordd maen nhw'n sillafu enwau lleoedd; mae'r rheini'n bethau i'w trysori. Ond, er mwyn hwylustod gweinyddu'n gyhoeddus, mae eisiau setlo ar ba ffurfiau rydym ni'n eu defnyddio. Ac mae hynny'n golygu cymryd ystod o ffactorau i ystyriaeth, gan gynnwys defnydd hanesyddol, defnydd lleol, barn y gymuned, a chydbwyso'r rheini, wedyn, â rhai ystyriaethau ieithyddol a chanllawiau cenedlaethol a rhyw gydnabyddiaeth bod yr enwau yma'n perthyn i set neu stoc o enwau lleoedd cenedlaethol.

A dyw hi ddim yn hawdd penderfynu pob tro pa ffurf i'w ddefnyddio. Hynny yw, mae gan y comisiynydd banel o arbenigwyr—mae Dylan Foster Evans yn eistedd ar y panel hwnnw hefyd. A dyw hi ddim yn hawdd setlo pam. Mae yna ddadleuon dilys iawn o blaid gwahanol ffurfiau weithiau. Ond mae'r cwestiwn yma o gofnodi wedyn yn bwysig—cofnodi pam mae'r panel wedi dod i benderfyniad. Ac mae hynny, gobeithio, yn gallu bod yn rhan o addysgu'r cyhoedd a pherswadio pobl o blaid amryw ffurfiau.

If I could start with that, because we are responsible for recommending standard forms of place names, I think some points have been made earlier about the fact that place names and individual names belong to the language more broadly. So, this question of who owns place names is difficult and, of course, there's a local community that feels ownership for the name of their village. But we also have to accept that people from other parts of Wales want to refer to that village and want to know how to spell it, and expect the name to comply with the standard rules of the language, if you like.

We do have a unique situation with the Welsh language—or it's unique in Britain, at least, in terms of the Welsh language—in that the Welsh language tries to make it easy for people in terms of pronunciation. It's largely phonetic, and there is an attempt to spell place names in the way that they're pronounced. That isn't true everywhere. It's certainly not true in England, when you think of places such as Worcester, Derby, Leominster, and so on. So, what we're trying to deliver in the system for the Welsh language is inherently different.

It can feel like a very minor issue, whether you include a hyphen or not. The Member mentioned Friars Walk in Newport. People become very exercised as to whether you need an apostrophe there. And, of course, we have to deal with all of these questions in trying to provide standardised forms.

But I think it's important to make the point more generally, without looking at the minutiae, that settling on standardised forms is crucially important to effective public administration. A name is supposed to be a convenient and effective label in order to secure services, to ensure that emergency services can get there, to know what form should be included on a map so that what's on the map is the same as on the signage and in the database. So, we don't need to be very strict in all parts of our lives. Rugby clubs don't have to change the way they spell their club name; they're things to be treasured. But, in terms of public administration, we do need to settle on standard forms. And that does mean taking a range of factors into account, including historical usage, local usage, the view of the community, and to balance all of those things with some linguistic considerations, national guidance, and some recognition that these names do belong to a set or a stock of national place names.

And it isn't easy to make that decision as to which form should be used. The commissioner has a panel of experts—Dylan Foster Evans is a member of that panel too. And it isn't easy to make decisions. There are very valid arguments for various forms. But this question of recording is important, too—to record why the panel has reached its decision. And, hopefully, that can be part of educating the public and persuading people in terms of the form chosen.

Hynny yw, mae'n gysur i mi, yn hyn o beth, mae'r un trafodaethau’n digwydd mewn gwledydd eraill ynglŷn â'r cysylltnod a chollnod. Dydyn ni ddim yn unigryw yn y Gymraeg na'r Saesneg o gwbl, yn hynny o beth. A dwi'n meddwl po fwyaf amlwg ydy'r enw ar aneddiadau, pentrefi ac ati, po fwyaf yr angen am ffurfiau safonol, wrth gwrs, i ddefnyddio'r un cronfeydd data.

Ar lefel leol iawn, hynny yw, allwch chi gael mynydd efo tair fferm o gwmpas y mynydd efo'r un enw ar y mynydd. Mae gennych chi rywbeth 'ganol', rhywbeth 'isaf' a rhywbeth 'uchaf'. Efallai eu bod nhw i gyd yn sillafu enwau mewn ffordd ychydig bach yn wahanol, a dydy hwnna ddim yn anarferol, pan fyddwch chi'n edrych ar fapiau ac ati, a dydy o ddim yn rhywbeth sy'n fy nghadw i'n effro dros nos, yn poeni am bethau fel yna. I ryw raddau, mae o'n rhan o'n cyfoeth ac o'n hanes ni. Hynny yw, mae'r Gymraeg yn ddiweddar iawn, iawn wedi dod yn iaith sy'n cael ei defnyddio mewn sefyllfaoedd fel hyn. Yn ddiweddar iawn, iawn mae unrhyw statws swyddogol iddi, ac mae ôl hynny yn yr archif. Dwi'n meddwl roedd Osian yn dweud lle mae ôl hynny yn yr archif hanesyddol, a dydyn ni ddim, dwi ddim yn meddwl, yn buryddion, unrhyw un ohonom ni, sydd ishio mynd rownd yn cywiro sillafiadau yma a thraw. Nid dyna ydy hi. Mae'r cwestiwn o ddiogelu enwau hanesyddol yn gwestiwn gwahanol i safoni enwau. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod rhaid cael cytundeb ar yr enwau pwysicaf yn y tirlun, am bob math o resymau ymarferol, ond fyddwn i ddim yn gwthio hynny i hyd eithafion.

It's a comfort to me that the same discussion is happening in other countries with regard to hyphens and apostrophes and so on. It's not unique to the Welsh language or the English language, in that regard. And I think with regard to settlements and villages, the more prominent the name, the more standardised terms are required.

On a local level, you can have a mountain with three farms surrounding it, with the same name for the mountain. And you have the name of the mountain with 'canol', 'uchaf', 'isaf'. Perhaps they are all spelt slightly differently, and that wouldn't be an unusual thing to see in looking at maps, and it's not something that keeps me awake at night concerned about these things either. To a certain extent, it's part of our wealth and of our history. It's only very recently that the Welsh language has been used in situations such as this one and given any official status, and I think that is to be seen in the archive. I think Osian mentioned where that is to be seen in the historic archives, and I don't think any of us are purists who think that we need to be correcting spellings here, there and everywhere. That's not the case. The question of safeguarding historic names is very different to standardising names. So, I think that we have to have agreement on the most important names in the landscape, for all kinds of practical reasons, but I wouldn't push that to extremes.

11:05

Byddwn i'n cytuno. Mae'n mynd nôl at y pwynt roedd Carwyn yn ei wneud, sef bod weithiau sawl ffordd wahanol o sillafu enw a'i fod e'n gallu arwain at ddryswch. Lleygwr hollol ydw i o ran hyn, ac mewn ffordd dwi eisiau i'r pwyllgor o arbenigwyr mae Eleri a Dylan arno i ddweud wrthyf i, 'Dyma'r enw iawn.' Dwi'n hapus wedyn i ddefnyddio'r sillafiad yna. Dwi'n meddwl bod y rhan fwyaf o bobl yn hapus gyda hynny dros amser. Dwi'n meddwl mai rhan o'r broblem yw bod argymhellion y pwyllgor safoni enwau ddim ar sail statudol, sy'n golygu dyw cynghorau ddim yn gorfod gwrando ar beth maen nhw'n ei argymell, ond efallai fod rhywun arall yn gwrando ar beth maen nhw'n ei argymell, ac wedyn mae gennych chi sawl amrywiaeth wahanol.

Un arwydd y tynnais i lun ohono fe ddoe, dwi'n dod o Bentre'r Eglwys yn etholaeth Pontypridd—. Mae hwn yn arwydd newydd sbon sydd wedi ymddangos. 'Beddau' sydd yn wastad wedi bod ar yr arwydd, ond, am resymau da, mae rhywun wedi penderfynu rhoi 'Y Beddau' uwch ei ben e, ond dwi'n meddwl, yn y bôn, pan wnes i tsiecio beth sydd gan y pwyllgor safoni enwau, 'Beddau' yw e. So, mae'n enw Cymraeg yn barod, a dwi'n meddwl dyw hwnna ddim yn ddefnyddiol. Dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna ddim yn gwneud ffafr â neb. Enw Cymraeg yw Beddau ac mae pawb yn gwybod hynny. Dwi'n meddwl bod hyn yn deillio o'r syniad yma taw dwyieithrwydd yw'r nod, a byddai Cymdeithas yr Iaith yn gryf yn erbyn hynny—enw Cymraeg yw Beddau a does dim angen cyfieithiad Cymraeg o enw Cymraeg. Hynny yw, efallai fod 'Y Beddau' yn ffurf hanesyddol, ond os yw'r pwyllgor safoni enwau wedi penderfynu, dwi'n meddwl y dylai awdurdodau cyhoeddus orfod cydymffurfio â hynny. Dwi'n meddwl taw mater bach fyddai rhoi dyletswydd ar awdurdodau cyhoeddus i ddilyn argymhellion pwyllgor o'r fath.

I'd agree. This takes us back to the point that Carwyn made, in that many different spellings can sometimes lead to confusion. Now, I am very much a layperson in this regard, and, in a way, I want the panel of experts that Eleri and Dylan are members of to tell me, 'This is the correct form.' I'm happy to use that spelling then. I think most people would be happy with that over time. I think part of the problem is that recommendations made by that committee aren't on a statutory basis, and, therefore, councils don't have to take account of their recommendations, but others may take account of them, so you have that variety of usage then.

I took this picture in Church Village near Pontypridd yesterday. This is a brand-new sign. Now, 'Beddau' has always been on the sign, but, for good reason, someone has put 'Y Beddau' above it, but, essentially, having checked what the committee had, it is 'Beddau'. So, it's already a Welsh name, and that variation isn't useful in any way. It doesn't do anyone any favours. Beddau is a Welsh name and everyone knows that. I think this stems from this concept that bilingualism is the aim, and Cymdeithas yr Iaith would be strongly against that—Beddau is a Welsh name and so you don't need a Welsh translation of an already Welsh name. Perhaps 'Y Beddau' is a historical form, but if the standardisation committee has made a decision, then I think public authorities should have to comply with that. I think it would be a small matter to place a duty on public authorities to follow the recommendations made by such a committee.

Iawn.  Diolch, David. Wel, rydym ni wedi siarad lot am gaeau a thai, ond dŷn ni ddim wedi siarad lot am bontydd. Pe byddai yna restr, efallai fyddem ni ddim wedi cael pont y Tywysog Siarl, ond mae hynny'n drafodaeth arall at ddiwrnod arall.

Diolch i chi am ddod atom heddiw. Roeddem ni wedi gofyn i Tudur Owen ddod i mewn heddiw, ond doedd e ddim ar gael, felly dŷn ni am ofyn am dystiolaeth ychwanegol, ac os oes unrhyw fudiad arall dŷch chi'n credu fyddai â diddordeb mewn rhoi unrhyw fath o ystyriaeth i'r mater yma, yna plîs rhowch eu manylion cyswllt inni er mwyn inni allu ymwneud â nhw. Ond diolch i chi am eich ymroddiad, a byddwn ni'n cysylltu â chi lawr y lein gydag unrhyw gasgliadau dŷn ni'n dod atyn nhw fel Aelodau Cynulliad. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Okay. Thank you very much, David. Well, we've talked a lot about fields and houses, but we haven't talked about bridges. Perhaps if they were on a list or register, we wouldn't have had the Prince Charles bridge, but that's another discussion for another day.

Thank you all very much for joining us. We had asked Tudur Owen to join us but he wasn't available today, so we'll ask for additional information from him. If there are any other organisations you believe would have an interest in providing any kind of evidence on this issue, then please do give us their details so we can engage with them. But thank you very much for your commitment, and we will be in touch with you down the line with any conclusions that we reach as a committee. Thank you.

3. Papurau i’w nodi
3. Papers to note

Felly, dŷn ni'n symud ymlaen ac mae gennym ni bapurau i'w nodi. Eitem 3.1, mae yna ohebiaeth ynghylch recriwtio ar gyfer swydd cyfarwyddwr Cymru Greadigol. Ac eitem 3.2, llythyr gan Fforwm Partneriaeth Cerddoriaeth Cymru am astudiaeth dichonoldeb yn ymwneud â gwasanaethau cerddoriaeth. Dŷn ni wedi cael ymateb gan y Llywodraeth ar yr ail eitem—dim ond dros nos—ac felly bydd hynny ar agenda'r wythnos nesaf. Oes unrhyw sylwadau ar hynny? Na.

So, we move on and we have papers to note. Item 3.1, there is correspondence on the recruitment for the post of Creative Wales director. And item 3.2, a letter from the Music Partnership Forum Wales on a music studies feasibility study. We have received a response from the Government on the second of those items, overnight, and that will be on the agenda next week. Any comments? No.

4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.22 i ethol Cadeirydd Pwyllgor dros dro
4. Motion under Standing Order 17.22 to elect a temporary Committee chair

Awn ni at eitem 4, felly, sef cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog i ethol Cadeirydd dros dro. Hoffwn wneud cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.22 i ethol Cadeirydd dros dro yn fy absenoldeb ar gyfer y cyfarfod nesaf, ac mae David Melding yn garedig wedi cytuno i gadeirio'r cyfarfod. Oes unrhyw un yn gwrthwynebu? Na. Felly, gan nad oes, hoffwn i ddiolch i David ymlaen llaw.

So, we'll move on to item 4, which is a motion under Standing Orders to elect a temporary committee Chair. I would like to propose under Standing Order 17.22 to elect a temporary Chair in my absence for the next meeting, and David Melding has kindly agreed to Chair the next meeting. Are there any objections? No. As there are none, I would like to thank David in advance.

5. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(vi) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod hwn
5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42(vi) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Byddaf nawr yn gwneud cynnig i fynd â'r cyfarfod yn breifat. Diolch.

I will now propose a motion to go into private session. Thank you.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 11:09.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 11:09.

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