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Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu

Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee

18/09/2019

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Bethan Sayed AM Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
David Melding AM
Delyth Jewell AM
John Griffiths AM
Mick Antoniw AM

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Aled Roberts Comisiynydd y Gymraeg
Welsh Language Commissioner
Dyfan Sion Cyfarwyddwr Strategol, Comisiynydd y Gymraeg
Strategic Director, Welsh Language Commissioner
Gwenith Price Cyfarwyddwr Strategol a Dirprwy Gomisiynydd y Gymraeg
Strategic Director and Deputy Welsh Language Commissioner
Huw Jones Cadeirydd, S4C
Chair, S4C
Owen Evans Prif Weithredwr, S4C
Chief Executive, S4C

Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru a oedd yn bresennol

National Assembly for Wales Officials in Attendance

Claire Fiddes Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Martha Da Gama Howells Clerc
Clerk
Osian Bowyer Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Robin Wilkinson Ymchwilydd
Researcher

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:32.

The meeting began at 09:32.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Diolch a chroeso i'r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu—cyfarfod cyhoeddus. Eitem 1 yw cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau. Oes yna unrhyw ymddiheuriadau? Gan Carwyn Jones. Datgan buddiannau—a oes gan rywun rhywbeth i'w ddatgan? Na. 

Thank you and welcome to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee public meeting. The first item is introduction, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. Are there any apologies? We've received apologies from Carwyn Jones. Declarations of interest—does anyone have any declarations of interest? No.

2. Craffu blynyddol ar S4C
2. Annual scrutiny of S4C

Eitem 2—dŷn ni yn gwneud ein craffu blynyddol ar S4C. Croeso i Owen Evans, sef prif weithredwr S4C, a hefyd i Huw Jones, cadeirydd bwrdd unedol S4C. Dwi ddim yn siŵr os mai hwn fydd eich tro olaf i ddod atom.

Item 2 is the annual scrutiny of S4C. I welcome Owen Evans, the chief executive of S4C, and also Huw Jones, chair of the unitary board of S4C. I'm not sure whether this will be your last time before us.

Yn wir, yn wir. 

Indeed.

Felly, diolch yn fawr iawn am ddod i roi tystiolaeth ger ein bron yn eich rôl, a diolch am eich cyfraniad yn eich swydd hefyd. Dŷn ni'n gwerthfawrogi hynny. Diolch yn fawr iawn am ddod mewn atom. Dŷn ni wedi gweld yr adroddiad ac mae gennym gwestiynau ar sail themâu gwahanol, fel dŷch chi siŵr o fod yn gwybod erbyn hyn. Felly, byddaf i'n cychwyn gyda cwpwl o gwestiynau ynglŷn â'r dirywiad yn y perfformiad o ran ffigurau gwylio teledu. Allech chi jest esbonio beth yw'ch barn chi ar hynny? Dwi'n credu wnes i ddarllen eich bod chi wedi dweud bod hynny'n sylweddol ac yn siomedig. Yn sicr, dŷn ni'n mynd i fynd ymlaen i siarad am ddigidol, ond allech chi esbonio, ar hyn o bryd, o ran ffigurau gwylwyr teledu, a sut dŷch chi wedi ymateb i hynny?

So, thank you very much for coming to give evidence before the committee in your role, and also for your contribution in post. We do appreciate that. Thank you very much for attending today. We have seen the report and we have questions on the basis of different themes, as you probably know by now. I will start with a few questions regarding the decline in performance on television viewing figures. Could you just explain what your views are on that? I think I read that you said that that was substantial and disappointing. Certainly, we are going to go on to talk about the digital side, but can you explain at the moment about the television viewing figures and how you've responded to that?

Os wnaf i gychwyn, te, gan eich bod chi wedi gofyn am fy sylw i yn benodol, dwi'n meddwl bod pob gwasanaeth teledu yn gystadleuol. Mae o'n dymuno denu cymaint o wylwyr a phosib. Felly, mae unrhyw flwyddyn pan fo'n ymddangos bod yna lai wedi troi i fewn, mae yna elfen o siom. Mi oedd yna ffeithiau penodol yn ymwneud â'r llynedd. Yn gyntaf, wrth gwrs—y flwyddyn gynt, roedden ni wedi cael codiad sylweddol yn y ffigurau gwylio. Felly, mewn ffordd, roedd yna elfen o ddod lawr. A dŷn ni wedi dadansoddi bod yna ffactorau penodol o ran faint o ddrama oedd gyda ni. Er enghraifft, dim ond tair cyfres ddrama sylweddol oedd gyda ni yn yr amserlen llynedd, i gymharu â phump y flwyddyn gynt. Roedd yna lai o chwaraeon lefel uchel gyda ni, ac mae'r rheini yn dylanwadu'n sylweddol ar y cyrhaeddiad. Mi oedd yna ffactorau eraill, dwi'n meddwl. Mi oedd yna ymgais fwriadol i fynd ar ôl cynulleidfa iau, sy'n mynd i fod yn bwysig iawn i S4C. Wrth wneud hynny, o bosib bod yna elfen o ddieithrio cynulleidfa fwy traddodiadol wedi bod. Ac eto mae hyn yn rhan—. Dyma ydy efallai yr her sylfaenol i sianel sy'n gorfod bod yn dipyn o bopeth i bawb o bob oedran.

Mi oedd yna ffactorau eraill. Mi oedd y tywydd yn arbennig o braf yr haf diwethaf—mi oedd pob darlledwr cyhoeddus yn dioddef oherwydd hynny. Un peth arall y buaswn i'n nodi, dwi'n meddwl: roedd yna gyfnod yn yr haf pan oedd yna gryn dipyn o ailddangos. Nawr, mae ailddangos yn gallu bod yn deillio o'r prinder arian i gynhyrchu deunydd newydd—mae yna ffactorau ariannol ar waith—ac, wrth gyflwyno ailddangosiadau yn y gwasanaeth, mae yna berygl ichi roi signals ynglŷn â beth ydy natur y gwasanaeth a bod pobl yn adweithio i hynny. Mae'r rheini yn drafodaethau dŷn ni wedi'u cael yn y bwrdd gyda swyddogion dros y flwyddyn, ac dwi'n meddwl yn sgil hynny mae yna lawer wedi'i ddysgu ynglŷn â'r balans sy'n gorfod cael ei daro rhwng y gwahanol uchelgeisiau. Ac, fel rŷch chi'n sôn, mae digidol, wrth gwrs, yn stori wahanol.

If I could start, because you did ask for my comments specifically, I think all television services are competitive. They seek to attract as many viewers as possible. So, any year where it appears that fewer have been viewing, there's an element of disappointment. There were some specifics relating to last year. First of all—the year before, we had seen a significant increase in viewing figures. So, in a way, there was an element of a downturn. And we have analysed that there were specific factors in terms of how much drama we had. For example, there were only three substantial drama series in our schedule last year, as compared to five the year before. There was less high-level sport too, and those do have a significant influence on viewing figures. There were other factors. There was a deliberate attempt to pursue a younger audience, which is going to be hugely important for S4C. But, in doing that, perhaps there was an element of alienating the more traditional audience. And again this is part—. This perhaps is the fundamental challenge for a channel that has to be everything to all people of all ages. 

There were other factors. The weather was particularly good last summer—every public service broadcaster suffered as a result of that. One other thing that I would note, I think, was that there was a period during the summer months when there was quite a bit of repeats shown, and that can emerge as a result of the shortage of money to produce new material, and, in repeating programming, there is a risk that you give signals as to the nature of the service and people will respond to that. Those are discussions that we've had in the board with officials over the year, and I think in light of that a great deal has been learnt about the balance that needs to be struck between the various ambitions. As you said, digital is a very different story.

09:35

Owen, oes unrhyw beth i'w ychwanegu at hynny, neu—?

Owen, do you have anything to add to that?

Jest cwpwl o bethau—. Yn gyntaf, mae yna trends drwy'r diwydiant i gyd fod pobl sy'n gwylio'r teledu yn mynd i lawr. Un o'r pethau calonogol—dros y pedair blynedd diwethaf, mae S4C actually wedi colli llai o wylwyr yng Nghymru na'r PSBs eraill—trwy mymryn bach, ond dŷn ni yn y pac, fel petai. Mi oedd y llynedd lawr—dŷn ni yn edrych mewn i pam, beth sydd wedi digwydd. Mae'r rhesymau mae Huw wedi'u dweud yn wir, ond mae yna elfen o cycles o gwmpas y pethau yma.

Eleni, mae'r Rugby World Cup yn dod i fyny, mi oedd yr Euro qualifiers yn dod i fyny, dŷn ni wedi cael dramau fel Pili Pala, sydd ymlaen nawr, 35 Diwrnod, a bydd Craith yn dod lan yn yr hydref. Mae hynny'n meddwl bod y ffigurau eleni yn barod i fyny ar y llynedd. Felly, mae elfen o cycles o gwmpas y peth, ond, wrth gwrs, os mae yna gwymp—mae'r bwrdd yn cael ymchwil pob mis amboutu faint o bobl sy'n gwylio a beth yw cyrhaeddiad y sianel, ond hefyd faint o bobl sy'n gwylio'r cyfryngau cymdeithasol a'r digidol, hefyd. Felly, dŷn ni yn cadw gwyliadwraeth eithaf llym ar ble mae'r ffigurau gwylio yn mynd. 

Ond mae'n rhaid inni gofio hefyd nid ffigurau gwylio yw unig bwrpas S4C, achos mae yna lot o bethau dŷn ni'n eu gwneud sydd ddim yn mynd i ddenu pobl yn eu niferoedd i'r sianel achos mae'n bwysig inni wneud pethau eraill hefyd.

Just a few things—. First of all, there is a trend through the industry that the number of people watching television is in decline. One of the heartening things over the last few years is the fact that S4C has lost fewer viewers than the other PSBs—just a little bit, but we are in the pack, so to speak. Last year, we were down—we are looking into what has happened. The reasons that Huw has outlined are true, but there is an element of cycles around these things.

This year, the Rugby World Cup is coming up, the Euro qualifiers are with us, we've had dramas such as Pili Pala, which is on now, 35 Diwrnod, and Craith will be coming on in the autumn. So, that means that this year's figures are already up on last year. So, there is an element of cycles around this, but, of course, if there is a decline—the board has research every month regarding how many people are viewing, regarding the reach, but also how many are viewing and using the social online platforms. So, we do keep a close eye on where viewing figures are going.

But we also have to remember that viewing figures aren't the only purpose of S4C. There are many things that we do that aren't going to attract people in great numbers to the channel, because it's important that we do other things as well.

O ran y pethau eraill, allwch chi jest esbonio, efallai, yn fras, te, felly, am y pethau digidol? Ydych chi wedi targedu hynny'n fwy? Ydych chi wedi gwneud mwy yn y maes digidol? Ydych chi yn targedu mwy na dim ond y cohort ifanc wrth wneud y pethau digidol? Allwch chi esbonio hynny?

In terms of the other things, can you just explain, briefly, what are the digital aspects that you do? Have you targeted that more? Have you done more in the digital area? Are you targeting more than just the young cohort in doing the digital work? Can you explain that?

Iawn, diolch. Cymeron ni benderfyniad jest dros flwyddyn yn ôl, ar ôl i ymchwil ac adroddiad Euryn Ogwen ddod mas, ein bod ni'n mynd i dargedu'n ddigidol llawer yn fwy. Felly, mae yna ddau beth dŷn ni wedi bod yn ei wneud yn y cyfamser—wel, tri pheth. Yn gyntaf, dŷn ni wedi gwario lot mwy o bres ar y peth. Felly, gwnaethon ni neilltuo £3 miliwn llynedd, ac mae'r rhaglen yna wrth ei gwaith nawr.

Nawr, mae hynny'n anelu at ddau beth: yn gyntaf, isadeiledd digidol y sianel—pethau fel Clic a beth sy'n digwydd gyda hwnna—a wedyn mae'r cynnwys ei hunan. Felly, o gwmpas y cynnwys, efallai ddechreuaf i yn gyntaf, dŷn ni wedi buddsoddi dros £1 miliwn mewn Hansh. Mae Hansh nawr wedi mynd o 40,000 o bobl yn gwylio pob mis i 700,000 o bobl yn gwylio pob mis, ac mae nifer y bobl sy'n gwylio S4C drwy social media, y cyfryngau cymdeithasol nawr, eleni—sori, llynedd, yn ystod yr adroddiad blynyddol—gwnaeth e godi 20 y cant.

Felly, mae'r buddsoddiad dŷn ni wedi'i wneud mewn short form, a hefyd dramâu fel Merched Parchusmedium form—wedi bod yn arwyddocaol ac yn un o'r rhesymau, rwy'n credu, pam S4C, mas o bawb, yw'r unig sianel yng Nghymru, rwy'n credu—efallai un arall—sydd heb golli gwylwyr ifanc. Mae hynny'n bwysicach i S4C na neb, rwy'n credu, achos, wrth gwrs, pwrpas S4C yw gwneud yn siŵr bod yr iaith yn cael ei hybu, ac, wrth gwrs, pobl ifanc yw'r dyfodol. Felly, mae hynny'n bwysig iawn.

O gwmpas isadeiledd, efallai mwy i bobl fy oedran i, bob blwyddyn mae hyd yn oed pobl fel fi yn gwylio teledu llinol llai a llai—dŷn ni'n gwylio catch-up, dŷn ni'n gwylio bocs sets a phethau fel hynny, dŷn ni'n gwylio Netflix, et cetera, et cetera. Dŷn ni wedi buddsoddi lot o arian mewn Clic dros y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, yn gyntaf o gwmpas isadeiledd i wneud yn siŵr ei fod yn gweithio'n well ac yn gallu cystadlu efo safonau iPlayer, ond hefyd yn y tîm o'i gwmpas mae gyda ni rhywun nawr sydd yn golygu Clic yn llawn amser i weld beth sy'n mynd ymlaen. Yn ystod y flwyddyn, fe gawson ni bocs sets am y tro cyntaf. Mwy a mwy, dŷn ni'n ceisio troi Clic mewn i ryw fath o destination yn lle jest hafan i ddal ein rhaglenni.

Mi wnaeth bocs sets, pan wnaethon ni gyhoeddi nhw dros y Nadolig, godi faint o bobl oedd yn gwylio Clic tua 12 y cant. Nawr, fesul mis, mae’r bocs sets yn tua 5 y cant o faint o bobl sy’n gwylio Clic, ac mae mwy o bethau i ddod yn yr hydref, gobeithio. Y peth arall sydd wedi digwydd efo Clic dros y flwyddyn ddiwethaf yw, wrth gwrs—mae hwn newydd ddigwydd, felly dyw e ddim yn hwn—ond rŷn ni wedi mynd i system mewngofnodi i Clic, fel sydd efo chi efo All 4, iPlayer, Netflix a phawb arall. Nawr, roedd hwnna’n bwysig i ni achos, yn gyntaf, dwi angen y data: pwy sy’n gwylio S4C—ble, pam, am faint—i fi allu targedu pobl efo marchnata sy’n fwy personol iddyn nhw.

Nawr, aeth Clic yn fyw, lle'r oedd mewngofnodi’n hanfodol, cwpl o fisoedd yn ôl, ac mae e’n wych i weld—mae jest dros 46,000 o bobl wedi tanysgrifio i Clic, ers hynny, mewn cwpl o fisoedd. Mae’n rhaid dweud, i fi, roeddwn i’n trio gweithio mas beth fuasai targed digonol am y flwyddyn. Roeddwn i’n meddwl efallai 15,000, felly mae’r ffaith bod 46,000 o bobl wedi tanysgrifio nawr yn meddwl bod y data yma i gyd efo ni inni ddeall sut i farchnata’n well, yn bersonol, un-wrth-un, ond hefyd, efallai yn y dyfodol, i ddeall pa fath o raglenni y byddwn ni’n eu comisiynu.

Okay, thank you. Well, we took a decision just over a year ago, following the Euryn Ogwen report, that we were going to target digital far more. So, there are two things that we have been doing in the meantime—well, three, actually. First of all, we've spent a lot more money on digital. So, we allocated £3 million last year, and that programme is ongoing now.

Now, that has two aims: first of all, the digital infrastructure of the channel—things such as Clic and what happens there—and then there's the content itself. So, around content, if I could start there, we have invested over £1 million in Hansh. Now, Hansh has gone from 40,000 viewers to 700,000 viewers per month, and the number of people watching S4C through social media now—sorry, last year, at the time of the annual report—increased by 20 per cent.

So, the investment that we have made in short form, and also dramas such as Merched Parchus, which is medium form, has been significant and is one of the reasons why S4C of all channels is the only one in Wales—apart from one other, perhaps—that hasn't lost young viewers. That is more important to S4C than any other channel, I think, because the purpose of S4C is to ensure that the Welsh language prospers, and, of course, young people are our future. So, that's hugely important.

Around infrastructure, perhaps for people more my age, every year even people like myself don't watch linear television as much—we watch catch-up, we watch box sets, Netflix and so on and so forth. We have invested a great deal of money in Clic over the past few years, first of all around infrastructure to ensure that it works better and to compete with the standards of iPlayer, but, also, in the team around that we have someone editing Clic full time to see what's going on. During the year, we had box sets for the first time. More and more, we are trying to turn Clic into some sort of destination rather than a catch-up site.

Box sets, when they were issued over Christmas, increased the viewers of Clic by 12 per cent. Now, monthly, the box sets are around 5 per cent of the Clic viewership, and there is more to come in the autumn, hopefully. The other thing that's happened with Clic over the past year, of course—and this has just happened, so it's not contained in this report—but we have gone to a log-in system with Clic, as you have with All 4, iPlayer, Netflix and all sorts of other services. That was important for us because we need the data as to who is watching S4C, where, why, and how much, so I can target people with marketing that is more personal to them.

Now, when Clic went live, where to log in was essential, just a few months ago, and it's wonderful to see—just over 46,000 people have subscribed to Clic in a period of a few months. Now, for me, I was trying to work out what our target should be for the year, and I thought it would be around 15,000, so the fact that there are 46,000 that have subscribed means that we have all of this data now so that we can understand how to better market, personally, on a one-to-one level, but also in future, perhaps, to understand what kind of programmes we should be commissioning.

09:40

Jest un cwestiwn clou—achos ro'n i’n gofyn i’r tîm ddoe; doeddwn ni ddim yn siŵr—ydych chi’n rhan o’r BritBox yma sydd wedi cael ei sefydlu gan BBC ac ITV?

Just one quick question—I was asking the team yesterday because I wasn't sure—are you part of this BritBox that's been established by BBC and ITV?

Nac ydyn, na. Rŷn ni wedi cwrdd â’r BBC ynglŷn â’r BritBox i weld a oes yna rôl i S4C yn y peth. Mae e’n rhywbeth masnachol, wrth gwrs. Mae’r BBC a—dwi ddim yn siŵr a yw'r BBC ac ITV eto wedi arwyddo cytundeb am y peth, ond rŷn ni mewn trafodaeth efo'r BBC obeutu a oes rôl i S4C.

No, we're not. We have met with the BBC on BritBox to see if there is a role for S4C within it. It is a commercial enterprise, of course. I'm not sure if the BBC and ITV have actually signed an agreement on this, but we are in discussions with the BBC as to whether there is a role for S4C.

Sori, jest un peth arall ar hwnna, achos mae e’n bwysig: mae amlygrwydd S4C ar iPlayer hefyd yn rhywbeth sy’n bwysig iawn i ni, ac felly mae yna drafodaethau’n digwydd o gwmpas hynny hefyd.

Sorry, just one further thing on that, because it's important: the prominence of S4C on iPlayer is also very important to us, so there are discussions around that too.

Ie, achos dyw e ddim yn amlwg iawn ar hyn o bryd, mae’n rhaid i fi ddweud. Ocê, dŷn ni’n symud ymlaen at y cylch gwaith a John Griffiths.

Yes, because it's not very clear at the moment, I must say. We're moving on now to the remit and John Griffiths.

Yes. Is there any update on legislation to change S4C's remit?

Yes, work is in progress. Various draftings have been shared with us, and the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport expects, or hopes—I think 'hope', given various things that are happening politically; there is no certainty in this field—that next year, during 2020, that legislation will be enacted, hopefully, to formalise the new remit and the new structure.

Okay. You say to formalise, Huw, so, at the moment, then, the lack of that legislation isn't hampering S4C's activities, is it?

No, it's not, because it's quite clear from the Government's response to the Euryn Ogwen Williams review that the Government sees no problem in our using the future remit, as if it were in existence today. So, that's what we're doing with everything digital that Owen has referred to. And in terms of how the governance works, we have now—'transmogrified' is the word, from being an authority into being a shadow unitary board, but acting as if we were the board. And the way that's been done is by new standing orders and by the appointment of a further two members of the executive to be members of the shadow board. The standing orders provide what should happen in the unlikely event that there was a division amongst the board members, given that the structure has not yet changed. So, I think we've thought it through, but we are very much acting as if the change had taken place.

Ocê. Cyllid—David Melding.

Okay. Funding—David Melding.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Obviously, this—I'm never quite sure if we've had a change of Government or a change of administration. Anyway, what happened in July—a new Prime Minister and a new Secretary of State—have you noticed any difference yet? Have you met with the new Secretary of State, Nicky Morgan, or—I mean, how does all that work? Perhaps you don't meet with them directly very often, but—

We do, but, interestingly, maybe it's worth recording that during my eight years in the chair, there have been eight Secretaries of State for culture, media and sport. That gives you an average of—

I'm going to ask you to name them all now. [Laughter.]

I'd have a go. [Laughter.] But I've certainly met every one of the previous seven, and we've asked for a meeting with Nicky Morgan, and I'm sure, in due course, that will happen. Maybe the hiatus with my departure and the likely gap before the appointment of my successor creates a bit of a question mark as to how that should be handled, but, certainly, that is the practice, that is the tradition, and we've been able to build up good relationships as a result of that.

09:45

You just said to my colleague John Griffiths that as far as the remit—and, despite it being provisional, it's reactive for the future and you, in practical terms, indicate, it seems to me, the great difficulties with that. So, presumably, the new administration and Minister are of the same view. But I just wonder if this sort of change and the general climate, I suppose, in terms of public affairs at the moment as we negotiate the exit from the European Union—it's sucking a lot of oxygen out of the political scene—whether some of the other issues that you're facing are particularly difficult. I was thinking about the £7 million that currently comes from the DCMS. I think when Owen was here in July, it almost seemed that it was a gentleman's agreement that this would now come via the licence fee. You were fairly confident but hadn't had it in writing, and that does seem to be an area that could change with a new Minister. So, is that still your expectation? Are we going to get any more regular confirmation of that?

Well, what's happening at the moment is the Government is funding public services and so forth on a year-by-year basis. As you know, there's a single-year spending review taking place, and the result of that, as far as our money that comes from DCMS is concerned, is that it's going to be flat for that year. So, that is according to expectation, which still leaves the question of the last year, if you like, before 2022, as not yet having been resolved.

We take comfort from all the words of support that have been given by various Ministers and Secretaries of State over the years and we hope that that will continue. But the fundamental reality is that in 2022, there is no confirmation of funding, because there is no confirmation of what the level of the licence fee will be and therefore, we can expect, in the period leading up to that, that there will be some quite intense discussions between, on the one hand, Government, the other hand, the BBC, and ourselves on the other hand. And, clearly, our aim will be to ensure that we are, at the very least, not further disadvantaged in financial terms, and we will be glad of any support that can be expressed in any quarters as to the fundamental need for public service broadcasting, and Welsh language public service broadcasting in particular in our case, to be adequately funded, given the fierceness of the competition for people's attention, which is generated by commercial services.

So, the whole question of the set current grant that you get directly, then—that's just subsumed in this more general situation, then, in terms of the BBC's funding. I just wonder how big a risk that is.

Mae e'n risg. Y peth pwysig i'w gofio—un o'r pethau dŷn ni wedi bod yn pwsio'r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol arno, pob un, fel maen nhw'n dod trwyddo—yw bod y drafodaeth o gwmpas cyllid S4C i'r dyfodol yn cael ei phenderfynu gan DCMS ac nid y BBC. Mae annibyniaeth S4C yn hyn i gyd yn bwysig. Fe gawsom ni ar bapur oddi wrth yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol diwethaf mai hynny fydd yn digwydd, y DCMS fydd yn penderfynu, ac, wrth gwrs, byddwn ni'n edrych am yr un sicrwydd oddi wrth Nicky Morgan.

Mae'r £7 miliwn am y flwyddyn i ddod i'w weld yn saff. Dŷn ni jest yn aros am gadarnhad o hwnna gan DCMS nawr. Ond mae rholio'r £7 miliwn o fewn yr arian mae'r BBC yn ei roi i ni drwy'r ffi drwydded yn bwysig ac yn risg. Felly, un o'r pethau y buaswn i'n gofyn i'r pwyllgor, ac eraill hefyd, i gadw golwg arno yw bod hynny'n digwydd.

Mi fydd y broses o ddadlau a chynghori dros gyllid y ffi drwydded, a hefyd cyllid S4C dwi'n amau, yn dechrau yn y misoedd nesaf, inni weld pa fath o fframwaith y bydd hyn yn mabwysiadu.

Yes, it is a risk. The important thing to remember—one of the things that we've been pushing the Secretary of State on, each one, as they come through—is that the discussion around S4C's funding for the future is decided by the DCMS and not the BBC. The independence of S4C in all of this is important. We had it on paper from the last Secretary of State that that is what is going to happen, that the DCMS will decide, and, of course, we'll be looking for the same assurances from Nicky Morgan.

The £7 million for the year to come seems safe. We're just waiting for confirmation of that from the DCMS now. But rolling that £7 million in with the money from the BBC through the licence fee is important and also a risk. So, one of the things that I would ask the committee and others to keep an eye on is that that happens.

The process of arguing and advising on the funding from the licence fee, and S4C's funding I suspect, will start within the next few months, for us to see what sort of framework this will adopt.

So, if I understand this correctly—it's obviously a slightly triangular relationship—eventually, the funding stream will entirely come through the licence fee, but what you get is negotiated, really, by the Minister, who then instructs, when giving the licence fee or signing the agreement or whatever—it's indicated what level of resource comes to S4C. So, you retain, really, to all intents and purposes, a negotiating position with the Government, not with the BBC in future.

09:50

And I think that's important for this committee to know, so that we're bringing our influence to bear on the correct body, then.

A couple of other things I just want to talk about: your value added tax status at the moment is under review. Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs say that your

'ability to reclaim VAT should be limited',

which is slightly ominous. How big is the risk, potentially, and are we any further forward in terms of the Government's view on this and what the situation is, again, in terms of your future viability? If you face 20 per cent VAT bills on a lot of what you're commissioning, it's a real problem, isn't it?

The situation is currently under discussion with DCMS. HMRC will do a review of organisations periodically, and we had a review last year. So, there is discussion over whether we can reclaim the VAT on our commissioning process. So, it is material. The discussions we've had with both DCMS and Treasury, though, are about our belief that this is cyclical—effectively, this is just money that's now generated from a different source, fed back to Treasury via HMRC and, therefore, it should be covered. So, the discussions we're having with DCMS and Treasury at the moment are about covering the VAT reclaim.

So, if suddenly HMRC say, 'Well, for tax purposes, you have no protection', and that you are liable, you'd then expect an uplift in the grant, or an effect on the grant that you get through the licence fee eventually.

Yes, so we'd be looking at a net—

And we'd be looking—and this is part of the discussion with them—for a change in our status, which would need to be legislated, and which would put us in the same position as the BBC.

Right. And Government have given you every indication that that's their direction of travel as well, despite the fact it may need legislation, and obviously that's a complicated—

The discussions have been very positive, in fairness, and DCMS are helping, and at Treasury, they're positive around the solution. We are already discussing legislation, potentially in the next finance Bill, around section 33, which is the pertinent legislation. The BBC are aware of the situation.

Fel mae Huw yn dweud, beth dŷn ni'n ceisio amdano yw jest bod y ffordd mae S4C yn cael ei thrin yn hafal efo'r ffordd mae'r BBC yn cael ei thrin.

As Huw said, what we're seeking is that the way that S4C is treated is equal with the way that the BBC is treated.

And then finally from me, I just wonder if you've got any more information on the contestable fund—a rather strange name, but, anyway, this funding stream via the British Film Institute, I think, that the Government's made available for younger audiences—your access to that and whether you've been successful in any applications to date.

First of all, I think it's a very positive step. I think it's the first time that I'm aware that a UK Government department, after a lot of discussion, actually declared that part of a funding stream would be ring-fenced for indigenous languages. So, I think this is a very positive step for us, actually, but also for Wales.

We have submitted one application already, we have another one on the stocks to go, so we will be hoping to maximise the use of this fund, and we're awaiting the decision on the first application within the coming weeks. So, I'm touching wood and hoping that the application we've put in—because not only is it an additional source of revenue for us, it's something that will help with youth-orientated content. But feeding into the digital question, the application that we've put in is very, very heavy on digital, interactive and making it an experience that transcends just a screen into the way that young people are digesting content these days. So, it's a good proof of concept for us. It's great that we can secure extra funding from other sources. We're just hopeful that we get it through.

Jest ar hynny, yn fras, ydych chi erioed wedi codi gyda DCMS pam ei bod hi'n rhyw fath o gronfa fel hyn yn hytrach na'u bod nhw'n rhoi mwy o arian i S4C oherwydd ei fod e'n cydymffurfio gyda'r criteria? Wedyn byddai dim rhaid mynd drwy'r fiwrocratiaeth o fynd am gyllid a chystadlu. Gallech chi roi ryw fath o gyflwyniad iddyn nhw a dweud, 'Well, this is a no-brainer; rŷm ni angen datblygu'r pethau yma anyway.' Mae creu cronfa, efallai, yn rhywbeth—mae'n anodd deall beth yw'r rationale am hynny. Chi sydd yn cael y trafodaethau, felly byddai'n ddiddorol gwybod os ydych chi wedi crybwyll hynny.

Just on that, briefly, have you ever raised with DCMS why it's this sort of fund, rather than them giving more money to S4C because it complies with criteria? Then there wouldn't be a need to go through this bureaucracy and competing for funding. You'd be able to give them some sort of presentation and say, 'Well, this is a no-brainer; we need to develop these things anyway.' Creating a fund, perhaps, is something—it's difficult to understand the rationale. You're having the discussions, so it would be interesting to know whether you've mentioned this.

09:55

Do, rŷm ni wedi, pan oedd hwn yn cael ei drafod i ddechrau. Mae yna market failure mewn rhaglenni plant ifanc. Does dim digon o bobl yn cynhyrchu cynnyrch plant ifanc y dyddiau yma, felly roeddem ni mewn trafodaethau efo DCMS, ac yn amlwg, chwarae teg, roedden nhw'n mynd i wneud rhywbeth amboutu fe. Fel buasech chi'n disgwyl, gwnaethom ni ddweud, 'Wel, os ŷch chi'n mynd i wneud hwn, yn amlwg mae'n debyg iawn y byddwn ni'n trio ei wneud e yng Nghymru, yn Gymraeg; pam na wnewch chi ddim jest "Barnett-eisio" fe, ac efallai rhoi rhywbeth ar ben ein cyllid ni?' Ond eu barn nhw oedd ei fod e'n bwysig iddyn nhw ei wneud e yn gystadleuol, ond hefyd, dwi'n credu, roedd yna issues o gwmpas discrimination, o gwmpas jest rhoi cash yn syth inni. Felly, dywedon nhw, 'Na, sori.' Maen nhw wedi edrych ar gyfraith y peth a meddwl roedd e'n well iddyn nhw fynd trwyddo system gystadleuol. Ond i fod yn deg iddyn nhw, gwnaethon nhw o leiaf 'ring-fence-io' 5 y cant i'r ieithoedd lleiafrifol fel ffordd o ddangos, 'Reit, rydym ni'n disgwyl bod rhan o'r arian yma yn mynd at y fath o brosiectau rydych chi wedi bod yn eu trafod.'

Yes, we have, when this was initially discussed. There is market failure in programming for young children. There aren't enough people producing material for young children these days, so there were discussions with DCMS and, fair play, they were going to do something about this. Now, as you would expect, we said, 'Well, if you're going to do this, then clearly it's likely that we would try to do it in Wales in Welsh; why don't you just Barnettise it and perhaps provide something in addition to our current funding?' But in their view, it was important for it to be competitive, but there were also issues around discrimination in relation to giving cash to us without a middleman. So, they said, 'No, sorry.' They looked at the legalities of it and decided that it was better for them to go through a competitive process. But to be fair to them, they did at least ring-fence 5 per cent for minority languages as a means of showing, 'Right, we do expect that some of this funding should go to the kind of projects that you've been discussing.'

Ocê. Diolch am yr esboniad. Cynnwys digidol—mwy o gwestiynau ar hynny gan Mick.

Okay. Thank you for that explanation. Digital content—more questions from Mick.

You'd already started explaining about the progress that's been made in the digital area. You referred to the £3 million investment, the increase there. There's an area, obviously, that those of us born in the slide-rule age have grave difficulty in fully understanding. What has been the reason for the success and the significant overperformance in terms of viewers, and particularly amongst young viewers, and how has that been achieved?

As I was reminded this morning, people with slide-rules put people on the moon, so we mustn't discount that. The biggest thing, actually, is that we've completely rethought the way that we commission programmes. So, historically, we'd produce half-an-hour or hour programmes that were produced professionally and they went on screen. We've had to take a bit of a flier and take on a lot of much younger talent, and develop that talent, actually. We've had various programmes around developing that talent to create programmes that, probably historically, people like me would look at and say, 'Oh, I'm not sure about that.'

If you think of the way that Hansh has developed over the past year, it started off pretty irreverent, quite risky, I would say, as well. And remember that the rules around the regulation of television are quite different for digital than they are for the main screen, so you can take more risks. So we adopted a mentality quite early on that we weren't necessarily going to brand it S4C; we were going to brand it separately, which was why Hansh came about. And the content, if you look at it, there's a lot of stuff there that the maximum duration of it is seven minutes. When it started it was quite irreverent, but it's matured over the past year to do programmes on the environment, to do public information; we've sponsored two apprenticeships with ITV to get better news coverage that's consumed by young people. So I think the success has been putting—yes, with rules in place—the production of the content in the hands of the people who are watching it. It's been a fantastic example of how, one, we can tackle diversity; two, we can bring talent into the sector; but thirdly, there's a direct correlation in that it's being produced by the people who are watching it.

Dwi'n meddwl beth mae digidol yn ei gynnig inni am y tro cyntaf ydy'r cyfle i fynd o fod yn un sianel sydd yn gorfod darparu tipyn o bopeth i bawb ac, wrth gwrs, pan rydych chi'n gweld pethau dŷch chi ddim yn eu licio, achos eu bod nhw wedi'u targedu at rywun arall, mae hwnna'n creu rhywbeth negyddol. Nawr, rydym ni'n gallu creu sianelau amrywiol, ond mae rhai ohonyn nhw yn ddigidol yn unig. Felly, mae hwn yn newid eithaf sylfaenol, ac mae'r dechnoleg newydd yn cynnig y cyfle inni ei wneud.

I think what digital offers us for the very first time is the opportunity to go from being a single channel that has to provide all things to all people, and of course, when you see things you don't like, because they're targeted at a different audience, that creates a negative perception. Now, we can create various alternative channels, but some of them are digital only. So, that is quite a fundamental shift and the new technology offers us opportunities to do that.

Ydy. A dros y chwe mis diwethaf, mae sianel Hansh nawr yn fyw ar Clic. Wythnos yma, fel esiampl arall, mae sianel dysgwyr nawr yn fyw ar Clic. Er nad ydym wedi ei hysbysebu i ddysgwyr eto, achos ni'n moyn gweld os yw e'n gweithio, rydym yn gweithio efo partneriaid i actually clustnodi cynnwys mewn ffordd absolutely wedi'i thargedu at gynulleidfa benodol.

Yes. And over the last six months, the Hansh channel is now live on Clic. This week, as another example, there is a learners channel that's now live on Clic. Even though we haven't advertised the learners channel yet, because we want to see whether it works, we're working with partners to actually earmark content in a way that absolutely targets a specific audience.

That takes us into the digital analytics part of it, which I understand ties in with this whole concept of algorithms and so on. I wonder if you could explain a little bit about the extent to which that is developing. I mean, is that being done in co-operation with the BBC? Is the business network around it? How has that been developing?

10:00

Fel y buasech chi'n ei ddisgwyl—. I fod yn deg, mae S4C yn hwyr i'r parti, fuaswn i'n dweud, ar hwn, a dyna un o'r rhesymau pam rydym ni wedi 'step-o' i fyny faint dŷn ni'n buddsoddi ynddo fe. Dŷn ni wedi bod yn gweithio efo'r European Broadcasting Union, sydd yn edrych ar ôl darlledwyr ar draws Ewrop, ond hefyd dŷn ni wedi bod i weld y BBC, dŷn ni wedi bod i weld Channel 4, i weld sut maen nhw'n gweithio'u algorithms a hefyd i weld sut mae pethau'n gweithio i bobl. 

Felly, dros y misoedd diwethaf, nawr ein bod ni'n gallu casglu'r data, fel y buaset chi'n disgwyl, dros y misoedd, dŷn ni wedi bod yn gweithio mas sut i ddatblygu algorithm i S4C. Nawr, does dim algorithms i'r iaith Gymraeg, felly dŷn ni wedi bod yn gweithio ar ba fath o systemau allwn ni eu mabwysiadu a dŷn ni wrth y broses nawr o benderfynu pa system o algorithm i roi i mewn i beth dŷn ni'n ei wneud. Felly, mae e'n dal yn datblygu, ond dŷn ni yn trio dysgu o'r gorau, achos diwedd y gân yw'r geiniog; dŷn ni ddim yn gallu fforddio creu algorithm super-duper ein hunain, felly mae'n rhaid inni edrych ar beth yw'r systemau sy'n bodoli a sut allwn ni deilwra hynny i beth sydd ei angen arnom ni. 

As you would expect—. To be fair, S4C is late to the party, I would say, on this, and that's one of the reasons why we've stepped up how much we're investing in it. We've been working with the European Broadcasting Union, which looks after broadcasters across Europe, but also we've been to see the BBC, we've been to see Channel 4, to see how they work on algorithms and also to see how things work for people.

So, over recent months, now that we can collect the data, as you'd expect, over the months, we've been working out how to develop an algorithm for S4C. Now, there isn't an algorithm for the Welsh language, so we've been working on what sort of systems we could adopt and we're in the process now of deciding which system of algorithm to put into what we're doing. So it's still in a development stage, but we're trying to learn from the best, because at the end of the day, we can't afford to create a super-duper algorithm ourselves, we have to look at the systems that exist already and how we can tailor those to what is required for us. 

Just one final point. I think it was really helpful and I think I understand it a bit better as well, but as the development of this whole area, both in terms of digital content but also in terms of the analytic side to it as well, there's presumably quite a business developing around that, in terms of supporting it. Could you say a little bit about how that is developing and what your view is of the quality of the development of the, I suppose, business infrastructure around that, because that seems to me to be a very significant area of development within Wales?

Absolutely. 

Un o'r gobeithion sydd gen i yw creu rhyw fath o lyn data i'r iaith Gymraeg. Felly, dŷn ni wedi bod yn trafod efo'r Eisteddfod Genedlaethol, Eisteddfod yr Urdd a'r ganolfan dysgu gydol oes i'r iaith Gymraeg yng Nghaerfyrddin i ffeindio ffordd yn y tymor hir o greu un gronfa o ddata o bawb sy'n deall, eisiau dysgu neu'n siarad Cymraeg, achos unwaith y bydd gennym ni hwnna, bydd gennym ni ffordd o gysylltu â phob siaradwr Cymraeg—os ydyn nhw yng Nghymru, yn Lloegr, neu ble bynnag. Felly mae'r ffordd dŷn ni'n casglu a siario'r data yma yn mynd i fod yn bwysig iawn i ni. 

Dŷn ni fel S4C bach yn fwy a dŷn ni wedi buddsoddi bach yn fwy yn y maes yma na'r rhan fwyaf o gyrff yng Nghymru, felly i raddau dŷn ni ar flaen y gad o ran y peth yma. A dyna pam mae'r hwb digidol dŷn ni wedi ei greu o gwmpas data yn mynd i fod yn bwysig nid jest i ni, dwi'n credu, ond i gyrff Cymreig eraill. Ond mae yna hefyd bosibiliad o fasnachu ar y gallu yma, achos os chi'n meddwl amboutu fe, mae darlledwyr ieithoedd lleiafrifol ar draws y byd sydd efallai o faint sydd ddim yn gallu fforddio datblygu'r math yma o dechnoleg. Felly, mae yna bosibiliad y gallwn ni yn y dyfodol—ac rydym ni wedi bod yn siarad â TG4 a phobl fel hyn—naill ai siario neu actually masnachu'r gwasanaeth yma fel rhyw fath o white label service i bobl. 

One of my hopes is to create a data pool for the Welsh language. So, we've been having discussions with the Urdd Eisteddfod, the National Eisteddfod and the Welsh learners' centre in Carmarthen, to find a way in the long term that we create one data source of people who understand Welsh, want to learn Welsh or speak Welsh. So, once we have that, we will have a means of contacting all Welsh speakers—whether in Wales, in England or wherever else they may be. So the way that we gather and share this data is going to be hugely important to us. 

We, as S4C, have invested a little more in this area than most bodies in Wales, so in a sense we're in the vanguard here. That's why the digital hub that we've created around data is going to be important, not only for us, but also for other Welsh organisations. But there is also a possibility of commercialising this, because if you think about it, there are minority language broadcasters across the world who perhaps are of a scale that can't afford to develop this kind of technology. So, it may be possible for us in the future—and we've been discussing with TG4 and people like this—to either share or commercialise this service as some sort of white label service for people. 

Jest un cwestiwn clou arall ar ddigidol, jest o ran y cynnig gan yr adolygiad annibynnol i greu hwb digidol o fewn S4C. Dwi'n gwybod bod rhai pobl wedi gweld hynny'n ddadleuol, er enghraifft roedd Huw Marshall wedi dweud na allwch chi ddadelfennu'r cynnwys llinol a'r cynnwys digidol a bod hynny felly wedyn yn eich rhoi chi mewn lle anodd. A ydych chi'n meddwl mai eich lle chi yw creu hwb digidol, neu a ydych chi'n mynd i barhau gyda'r system sydd ohoni?

Just one quick question on digital, just in terms of the offer in terms of the independent review to create an in-house digital hub. I know some people have seen that as controversial, for example, Huw Marshall said that you couldn't separate linear content from digital content, and that this put you in a difficult place. Do you think that it's your place to create a digital hub or are you going to continue with the system that exists already?

'I wouldn't rule anything in, I wouldn't rule anything out', dwi'n credu yw'r ateb. Pan roeddwn i'n edrych ar hwn, yn enwedig gyda datblygiad Hansh flwyddyn yn ôl, beth roeddwn i'n becso amboutu bryd hynny oedd security of supply. Faint o bobl sydd actually yn gallu cyflenwi hyn i ni. Ar y pryd, roedd hi'n anodd cael digon o gynnwys i ni ei gomisiynu. Bryd hynny, dim ond dau gwmni yng Nghymru oedd yn gallu, yn y bôn, cynnig y math yma o gynnwys. Pan mae'n amlwg nad oes digon o gyflenwyr, mae yna issueac wedyn efallai buasai'n rhaid inni gamu i mewn i wneud hyn. Erbyn hyn, mae tua 13 o gwmnïau yn cynhyrchu cynnyrch i Hansh, felly mae'r farchnad wedi tyfu, mae nifer y cyflenwyr wedi tyfu, ac mae hynny'n beth da.

Nawr, yn y dyfodol, wrth i gyllid fynd yn llai, o'i gymharu â beth rydym ni eisiau'i wneud—roedd Huw yn siarad gynnau fach amboutu pa mor anodd yw e i gadw'r sianel i fynd dros 12 mis—mae'r posibiliadau o wneud pethau o fewn S4C, wrth gwrs mae'n rhaid inni edrych arnyn nhw achos rydym ni'n cymryd y middle man allan ohono fe. Ond dwi ddim yn gweld, fel prif weithredwr—a dyw hwn heb gael ei drafod yn y bwrdd—sefyllfa ble buasai S4C yn penderfynu, 'Reit, ni'n mynd i wneud i gyd o'r rhaglenni yma o fewn S4C ei hun', achos rwy'n credu bod y system o gyflenwi cystadleuol allan yn y maes yn bwysig.

'I wouldn't rule anything in, I wouldn't rule anything out', I think is the answer I would give. When we looked particularly at the development of Hansh a year ago, what we were concerned about at that time was security of supply—how many people can actually provide this to us. Because at the time it was difficult to get enough content commissioned. Now, at the time, there were only two companies in Wales that were able to provide that sort of content. When it becomes apparent that there aren't enough suppliers, then there is an issue and perhaps we would have had to step in at that point. Now, there are around 13 companies producing material for Hansh, so the market has grown, the number of suppliers has grown and that's positive. 

Now, in future, as funding is reduced in terms of our ambitions—and Huw mentioned earlier how difficult it is to keep the channel going over a period of 12 months—then the possibilities of doing things in-house in S4C will have to be looked at, because then we're removing the middle man. But I, as chief executive—and this hasn't been discussed in the board—don't see a situation where S4C would decide, 'Right, we're going to do all of this programming in-house in S4C', because I think that the competitive supply system is very important.  

10:05

Dwi wedi siarad efo Euryn Ogwen sawl gwaith yn dilyn yr adolygiad, ac efallai wedi cael gwell dealltwriaeth o beth yn union oedd y tu ôl i'r sylw yna. Roedd Euryn yn gweld yr angen i gael pobl yn gweithio gyda'i gilydd oedd yn meddwl yn wahanol, a bod yna gyfle yn S4C i gael clwstwr o'r math yna o feddwl. Dwi'n meddwl bod yna wirionedd yn hynny ac mae hynny yn datblygu yn S4C—dwi wedi rhyfeddu at y gallu a'r egni sydd yna yn y criw newydd sydd wedi dod i mewn i weithio ar bethau digidol ac i'w dadansoddi nhw—ond dwi ddim yn meddwl yn angenrheidiol bod yn rhaid i hwnna fod dim ond o fewn S4C. Mae digidol a'r cyfryngau cymdeithasol yn eu hanfod yn eang, ac mae rhywun eisiau gweithgarwch, dyfeisgarwch a chreadigrwydd ym mhob man. Felly, allwch chi ddim creu muriau, ond lle mae gennych chi gyfleoedd, lle mae gennych chi gyllid, rydych chi eisiau gwneud y gorau a'r mwyaf ohono fo, a dwi'n meddwl mai dyna ydy'r dyfodol. 

I've spoken to Euryn Ogwen on many an occasion regarding the review, and perhaps have had a better understanding of what exactly was behind that comment. Euryn saw the need to have people working together who thought differently, and that there was an opportunity in S4C to have a cluster of that sort of thinking. I think there's some truth in that, and that is developing in S4C—I have been astonished at the ability and the energy of the new group of people who are working on digital aspects and analysing them—but I don't think it is necessary that that is only within S4C. Digital and social media in essence are very broad, and one wants diligence, innovation and creativity everywhere. So, you can't create walls, but where you have opportunities and where you have funding, you want to make the most of that, and I think that's the future.  

Iawn, diolch. Mae hwnna'n gliriach nawr. Hyrwyddo'r iaith, Delyth. 

Right, thank you. That is clearer now. Language promotion, Delyth. 

Diolch. Pa rôl ydych chi'n meddwl sydd gennych chi yng nghyd-destun cynllun y Llywodraeth ar gyfer 1 miliwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg? 

Thank you. What role do you think you have in the context of the Government's plan for 1 million Welsh speakers? 

Mae hwn yn gwestiwn mae yna gryn dipyn o drafod yn ei gylch o. Dwi'n cychwyn yn bersonol gyda'r ffaith bod yr adolygiad, ac ymateb y Llywodraeth i'r adolygiad, am y tro cyntaf wedi dweud y dylai fod yna gyfaddefiad cyhoeddus, os leiciwch chi, fod gan S4C rôl i'w chwarae yn natblygiad yr iaith. Achos tan rŵan mae yna angen wedi bod i fod yn weddol ofalus rhag dweud unrhyw beth o'r fath, er bod pawb yn gwybod, wrth gwrs, os ydy S4C yn llwyddiannus, mae o'n cyfrannu at lwyddiant yr iaith. Ond rŵan mae yna gefnogaeth gan y Llywodraeth ganolog i fynd ati i drafod gyda Llywodraeth Cymru a'i hasiantaethau sut y gallai hynny ddigwydd heb dramgwyddo amcan a remit sylfaenol S4C i fod yn ddarlledwr. A'r ffordd rydym ni'n ei wneud o ydy drwy adnabod partneriaid allweddol, creu cytundebau gyda nhw gyda'r ffocws ar y deilliannau—beth yn union sy'n mynd i ddod allan o'r rheini. Mae yna ddwy bartneriaeth ffurfiol wedi eu harwyddo yn barod, sef gyda'r ganolfan dysgu Cymraeg i oedolion ac hefyd gyda Mudiad Meithrin. Mae'r Urdd a'r Eisteddfod yn amlwg yn bartneriaid rydym ni eisoes yn gweithio gyda nhw, a dyna rydym ni yn disgwyl ei weld nawr—y deilliannau o'r rheini. Owen, wyt ti eisiau sôn am sut yn union mae'r ddwy bartneriaeth yna yn gweithio? 

There's been quite some discussion around this question. Personally, I start from the point that the review, and the Government's response to the review, had said for the first time that there should be a public admission, if you like, that S4C does have a role to play in the development of the Welsh language. Because until now there's been a need to be relatively careful in saying anything of that kind, although everyone knows, of course, that if S4C is successful, then it contributes to the success of the Welsh language. Now, there is support from central Government to discuss with the Welsh Government and its agencies how that can be delivered without actually going against S4C's fundamental remit of being a broadcaster. And the way we do that is by identifying key partners, by coming to agreements with them with the focus on outcomes—what exactly will be achieved. There are two formal partnerships that have been signed already, with the national centre for the teaching of Welsh to adults and with Mudiad Meithrin too. The Urdd and the Eisteddfod are obviously partners that we are already working with, and that's what we expect to see now—the outcomes from those. Owen, perhaps you want to mention how those two partnerships are working. 

Y peth cyntaf i'w ddweud ydy y gwnaethom ni eistedd lawr efo'r Llywodraeth a dweud, 'Reit'—mewn swydd gynt, fi oedd yn edrych ar ôl creu'r strategaeth 1 miliwn—'beth yw ein rôl ni?' So, fe gawsom ni drafodaeth amboutu ble mae S4C yn gallu gwneud y mwyaf o gyfraniad i hynny. Felly, beth ddaeth mas o'r trafodaethau hynny oedd mai addysg oedd y lle oedd efallai yn amlycach i S4C wneud rhyw fath o wahaniaeth. 

Beth rydym ni wedi wneud efo'r ganolfan dysgu Cymraeg i oedolion, mae hynny wedi bod yn eithaf diddorol. Yn y trafodaethau cynnar, beth oedd yn amlwg oedd bod S4C yn comisiynu rhaglenni dysgwyr, ond doedd dim linc efo beth roedden nhw'n ei ddysgu. Felly, beth ddywedom ni oedd, 'Reit, fe wnawn ni jest dechrau eto. Fe wnewch chi ddweud wrthym ni pa fath o raglenni sydd eu hangen arnoch chi a'ch cyrsiau ac fe wnawn ni gomisiynu ar sail hynny.' Ac fe wnaethom ni sgrapio ein holl rhaglenni dysgwyr ni ac ailgomisiynu popeth o dan beth oedd awgrymiadau'r ganolfan. Fe aeth hynny'n fyw ym mis Ionawr eleni. Wedyn, fel partneriaeth go iawn, maen nhw'n barod iawn i hybu rhaglenni S4C i'w dysgwyr nhw ac, wrth gwrs, rŷm ni'n comisiynu stwff sydd o ddefnydd i'w dysgwyr nhw hefyd.

Y cam nesaf, fel roeddwn i'n dweud gynnau fach, yw bod ni'n siario data. Mis yma, fel dywedais i, mae'r botwm 'D' yn fyw ar Clic. Dydyn ni heb lansio hwnna eto, achos yn dechnegol dwi jest moyn gwneud yn siŵr ei fod e'n gweithio gyntaf. Ond mae hwnna jest yn gam nesaf. Mi wnes i gwrdd ag Efa fis yn ôl inni drafod, 'Reit, beth yw'r camau nesaf?' Felly, gyda'r bartneriaeth go iawn, rŷm ni'n trafod, 'Reit, sut allwn ni weithio?' Dwi ddim yn gwario mwy ar rhaglenni dysgwyr, ond dwi'n gwneud e mewn ffordd hollol wahanol i beth roedden ni'n ei wneud 18 mis yn ôl. 

Yn yr un ffordd, rydyn ni wedi dechrau trafod efo athrawon am sut i becynnu a sut i gomisiynu rhaglenni plant mewn ffordd fuasai'n ddefnyddiol i athrawon ail iaith Gymraeg. Achos mae diffyg hyder yn ein system ni o ddysgu Cymraeg fel ail iaith, ac mae'n rhaid i ni drio sortio hynny, a dwi'n credu bod rôl fawr y gall S4C chwarae yn hynny. Felly, dyw e ddim yn rhywbeth mae S4C, fel rhyw fath o swashbuckler, yn penderfynu, 'I'r gad, dyma beth ni'n mynd i wneud.' Rydyn ni wedi eistedd lawr efo pawb a dweud, 'Reit, dŷch chi'n gwneud hwn; sut allwn ni helpu?'

The first thing to say is that we sat down with the Government and said, 'Right'—in a former role, I looked after the creation of the strategy of 1 million speakers—'what is our role?' So, we had a discussion about where S4C could make the biggest contribution in that regard. So, what came out of those discussions was education as perhaps the most prominent area where S4C could make a difference.

What we've done with the national centre for teaching Welsh to adults has been quite interesting. In the early discussions, what was clear was that S4C was commissioning programmes for learners, but that there wasn't a link with what they were learning. So, what we said was, 'Okay, we'll just start again. You can tell us what sorts of programmes you and your courses require and we'll commission on the basis of that.' And we scrapped all our learners' programmes and re-commissioned everything according to what the centre was suggesting. That went live in January. Then, as a real partnership, they are very willing to promote S4C's programmes to their learners and, of course, we commission things that are useful for their learners.

The next step, as I was saying earlier, is that we share data. This month, as I said, we have the 'D' button that's live on Clic. We haven't launched that yet because, technically, I just want to make sure that it works, first of all. But that is just the next step. I met Efa a month ago to discuss what the next steps are. So, with the real partnership, we're discussing how we can work. I'm not spending more on learners programmes, but I am doing it in a totally different way to what we were doing 18 months ago. 

In the same way, we've started to discuss with teachers about how to package and commission children's programmes in a way that would be useful to teachers of Welsh as a second language in Wales. Because there is a lack of confidence in our system of teaching Welsh as a second language, and we have to sort that out. I think S4C could play a great role. So, it's not something that S4C, as some sort of swashbuckler, is saying, 'This is what we're going to do.' We have sat down with everybody and said, 'Right, you're doing this; how can we help?'

10:10

Mae hynny'n rili defnyddiol. Diolch yn fawr iawn am hynny. Yn edrych ar y gwaith rydych chi'n ei wneud gyda phartneriaid, ac yn enwedig gyda Llywodraeth Cymru, sut ydych chi'n meddwl fod y bartneriaeth yna'n gweithio o ran yr adnodd Hwb, a sut ydych chi'n meddwl bydd hynny'n datblygu?

That's very useful. Thank you very much for that. Looking at the work that you're doing with your partners, and in particular Welsh Government, how do you think that that partnership is working in terms of the Hwb resource, and how do you think that will develop?

Yr hwb addysg?

The education hub?

Mae hynny'n digwydd nawr. Ein pennaeth marchnata ni nawr oedd arfer edrych ar ôl Hwb yn y Llywodraeth, felly mae trafodaethau rhyngddi hi â'r tîm yn bodoli. Dwi ddim yn siŵr cweit ble mae nhw wedi cyrraedd nawr, ond dwi'n gwybod bod y drafodaeth yn mynd ymlaen amboutu sut i gael mwy o'n deunydd ni ar Hwb. Un o'r pethau dŷn ni ar fin gwneud yw comisiynu'r cyfres gyntaf plant ble mae athrawon yn gweithio drwy Hwb wedi dweud wrthym ni, 'Dyma sut liciwn ni ichi becynnu beth sydd yn y cynnwys yma.' Ac mae hwn yn dreial i ni, achos dyn ni heb wneud hyn o'r blaen. Ac mae hwnna'n gweithio drwyddo nawr. Felly, diben y peth, gobeithio mewn rhai misoedd, yw y bydd rhaglen ar y sgrin, ond bydd clips munud, tair munud, ond hefyd deunydd i'r athrawon i ddangos iddyn nhw beth yw amlygrwydd, a beth yw arwyddocâd, beth sydd yn y cynnwys yna.

That is happening at the moment. Our head of marketing used to look after Hwb within the Government, so there are discussions between her and the team that are ongoing. I'm not sure what point they've reached as of yet, but I know that the discussion is ongoing as to how to get more of our material on Hwb. Now, one of the things that we're about to do is to commission the first children's series where teachers working through Hwb have told us, 'Well, this is how we would like you to package this content.' And this is a pilot for us because we haven't done this before. And that's being worked through now. So, the purpose is, hopefully, in a few months' time, there will be a programme on screen, but there will also be 60-second clips, three-minute clips, but also materials for teachers to show them what the significance of the content is. 

Ocê. Diolch. Ac yn olaf, o ran y dechnoleg adnabod iaith ac adnabod llais, rydych chi'n gweithio gyda Llywodraeth Cymru eto ar hynny. Oes unrhyw gynlluniau gyda chi ynglŷn â sut byddai hwnna'n cael ei ddatblygu hefyd?

Okay. Thank you. And, finally, in terms of speech recognition technology, you're working with Welsh Government again on that. Do you have any plans on how that will be developed?

Mae'r Llywodraeth newydd benodi rhywun, gwas sifil, i edrych ar ôl hwn. Mi wnes i gwrdd â'r Dirprwy Weinidog yn yr Eisteddfod i drafod hyn, ac rydyn ni'n cwrdd cyn bo hir. Rydyn ni'n rhan o hyn. Rŷn ni'n credu ei bod hi'n hollbwysig ein bod ni'n cael adnabod llais go iawn. Mae yna ffyrdd o'i wneud e, a dwi'n gallu gweld hynny. Dwi'n credu, ar y funud, beth sydd angen ei chreu o'r Llywodraeth yw strategaeth glir ar sut i wneud hyn. Dwi wedi bod yn edrych ar beth mae pobl fel y Maoris wedi gwneud ar draws y byd. Mae yna ffordd o wneud hyn yn glouach, dwi'n credu, na beth rydyn ni'n ei wneud ar y funud, a dyna'r drafodaeth dwi'n cael efo Eluned. 

The Government has just appointed a civil servant to look after this area. I met the deputy Minister in the Eisteddfod to discuss this very issue, and we are to meet again soon. We're part of this. We think it's crucially important that we have proper, real speech recognition. There are ways and means of doing it, and I can see what they are, but I think what we need from Government now is a clear strategy of how this will be achieved. I've been looking at what people like the Maoris have been doing, and others globally. There are ways of doing this more swiftly than we are currently doing, and that's a discussion I'm having with Eluned. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Amlygrwydd—John Griffiths. 

Thank you very much. Prominence—John Griffiths. 

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Just some questions in terms of prominence, really, of the Welsh content and the programmes that S4C commissions and provides. You said earlier that it's very competitive now, obviously, isn't it, in terms of the global content market, and there are big operators such as Netflix, for example. Do you feel that S4C is able to compete with those online giants effectively?

Ie a na. Ie, mae'n rhaid i ni fod yn bullish, mewn ffordd, achos pwy arall sy'n cynnig rhaglenni Cymraeg? Felly, mae yna rôl, ac mae yna gryfder yn brand S4C o ran hynny. Mae e'n ddiddorol iawn. Bydd Tony Hall yn sefyll i fyny yng nghynhadledd y Royal Television Society yng Nghaergrawnt heddi, a beth mae e'n sôn am, sy'n wir, yw ein bod ni ar fin mynd mewn i the second period of disruption mewn teledu. A beth mae hwnna'n feddwl yw: daeth Netflix mewn, Spotify, pobl fel hynny, a newid yn gyfan gwbl y ffordd mae pobl yn cymryd cynnwys. Beth sy'n digwydd nawr yw bod pobl fel Disney, pobl fel Apple, yn dod mewn, ac mae nhw'n cymryd cynnwys, yn aml iawn eu cynnwys nhw eu hunain—BritBox yn esiampl arall—ac mae nhw'n ei gymryd e o Netflix. A beth rydyn ni'n mynd i weld dros y flwyddyn nesaf, dwi'n credu, yw bod faint o gynnyrch sydd ar Netflix yn crebachu.

Nawr, mewn sefyllfa fel yna, ble mae pobl yn dechrau mynd at y bobl sydd wedi creu'r cynnwys, yn lle'r bobl sy'n 'aggregate-io' y cynnwys, mae yna siawns i S4C actually gael ein brand ni allan: dyma'r lle i fynd am gynnyrch Cymraeg. A dyna pam dŷn ni wedi buddsoddi yn tyfu Clic o fod yn rhywle dŷch chi ond yn mynd os ydych chi wedi colli rhaglen ar nos Fercher i fod yn lle lle mae yna bocs sets ac mae yna ddeunydd—os nad oes dim byd ar y teledu, mae yna rywbeth yna i chi ei wylio. Felly, ie, o'n hochr ni, ond na, achos buaswn i'n meddwl bod Apple yn mynd i wario mwy ar farchnata eu launch nhw nag ydw i'n gwario ar raglenni mewn blwyddyn. Felly, mae'n anodd i ni gystadlu.

Un o'r pethau wnaeth y bwrdd benderfynu cwpl o fisoedd yn ôl oedd, ar ôl y toriadau yn 2010, gwnaethom ni dorri faint rŷm ni'n ei wario ar farchnata yn reit llym i'r graddau ble mae'r BBC a phawb arall yn gwario tua 5 y cant o faint maen nhw'n ei wario ar sgrin. Nawr mae S4C yn gwario 1 y cant ac mae'n wir i ddweud, rwy'n credu, bod rhaid i ni, fel darlledwr bach, allu gweiddi braidd yn fwy swnllyd na phobl eraill. Felly, byddwn ni'n gwario mwy ar farchnata, ond byddwn ni hefyd yn buddsoddi yn y mathau o sgiliau a fydd yn meddwl ein bod ni'n gallu cael ein deunydd i gynulleidfa fwy eang ar draws y byd. Mae cyfryngau cymdeithasol yn bwysig iawn i ni. Roedd pethau fel 'do the Dai', lle cawsom ni dros bedair miliwn o bobl yn edrych ar glip, yn bwysig i ni, achos mae'n rhaid i ni gael ein brand ni allan. Dyw pobl iau, yn enwedig, ddim yn edrych ar tv listings mwyach; maen nhw'n tueddu i siarad efo'u ffrindiau nhw amboutu beth maen nhw wedi bod yn eu gwylio. Rwy'n credu mai word of mouth trwy drydar, trwy Instagram—beth bynnag—sy'n mynd i fod yn hollbwysig i ni, a dyna pam dŷn ni'n buddsoddi yn y rheini.

Yes and no. Yes, we have to be bullish, in a way, because who else provides Welsh language programming? So, there is a role, and there is a strength in the S4C brand in that regard. It is very interesting. Tony Hall will stand up in the Royal Television Society conference in Cambridge today, and what he is going to say is that we're about to go into the second period of disruption in television. Netflix and Spotify, and all sorts of others came in and actually transformed the way people access content. What's happening now is that people such as Disney and Apple are coming in, and they are taking content, very often their own content—BritBox is another example—and they're taking it away from Netflix. And what we'll see over the next year is that the amount of material on Netflix will reduce.

Now, in such a situation, such a scenario, where people are starting to go to the creators of content rather than the aggregators of content, there is a chance for S4C to get our brand out and say, 'Well, this is the place to go for Welsh language material'. And that's why we have invested in the development of Clic, from being a place where you only go if you've missed a programme on a Wednesday evening to being a place where there is a box set. So, if there's nothing on television, there's something there for you to watch. So, yes, from that side of things, but no, because I would have thought that Apple are going to spend more on marketing their launch than I spend on programming in a year. So, it's difficult for us to compete, obviously.

Now, one of the things that the board decided a few months ago was that, after the cuts in 2010, we cut our marketing spend quite severely to the extent where the BBC and everyone else spend around 5 per cent of what they spend on on-screen production. Now S4C spends around 1 per cent and I think it's true to say that we, as a small broadcaster, have to shout a little louder than everyone else. So, we will be spending more on marketing, but we will also be investing in the kinds of skills that will mean that we can get our material to a broader audience on a global level. Social media is very important in that regard. Things such as do the Dai, where we had four million people looking at a clip, are important to us, because we have to get our brand out there. Younger people particularly don't look at the tv listings any longer; they tend to speak to their peers about what they've been viewing. I think word of mouth, through Twitter and Instagram, or whatever else it may be, is going to be crucial for us, and that's why we're investing in those.

10:15

Sure, yes. Obviously, change is pretty rapid at the moment, isn't it, and is set to remain that way. In terms of some of the regulation and some of the protection for public service broadcasting, Ofcom's code of practice for electronic programme guides—do you think that's adequate for broadcast television?

It needs protecting, I would say. The roles of PSBs are different to commercial operators. PSBs exist because there is market failure, and so I think particularly for a small operator like ourselves, getting our voice heard and having that prominence is important for us. And so, just on the linear screen, the fact that we do appear at number 4 is important. The evidence suggests that, if you move from, say, 120 on an EPG to 180, you lose 20 per cent of your audience, because people scroll. 

Mae amlygrwydd ar y sgrin yn bwysig i ni, ond mae amlygrwydd yn ddigidol, efallai, dros y cyfnod hir, yn bwysicach fyth. Beth rŷch chi'n ei weld efo'r set-top boxes yw, wrth gwrs, mae apiau pobl yn flaengar o ran beth maen nhw'n ei ddangos. Pe buaswn i eisiau rhoi ap S4C ar bob set deledu a phob dyfais, gan gynnwys consolau Nintendo a phethau fel hynny, buasai’n fy nghostio £2 filiwn neu £3 miliwn y flwyddyn. Does dim gyda fi'r math yna o arian, felly mae'n rhaid i ni fod yn eithaf clyfar am beth ŷn ni'n ei wneud. Felly, un o'r pethau dŷn ni'n ei wneud yn y farchnad nawr yw gweithio mas bang for the buck pa blatfformau y dylai S4C eistedd arnyn nhw. Pe buasai'r Llywodraeth, wrth gwrs, yn gorfodi pobl sy'n gwneud dyfeisiadau fel teledau a set-top boxes a chonsolau a phethau fel hynny i roi apiau'r PSBs a'u bod nhw i gyd yn gorfod bodoli fanna, a bod rhyw fath o gymorth ariannol i wneud hynny, wrth gwrs, buasai'n trawsnewid y sefyllfa.

On-screen prominence is very important to us. But digital prominence, in the longer term, is perhaps even more important. What you see with set-top boxes is that people's apps are very prominent in terms of what they're showing. Now, if we wanted to have an S4C app on all televisions and all devices, including Nintendo consoles and everything else, it would cost £2 million or £3 million per annum. I don't have that sort of money, so we have to be quite smart in what we do. So, one of the things that we do in the market now is to work out bang for the buck in terms of which platforms S4C should be prominent on. If the Government were to require people who produce television set-top boxes—consoles and so on—to give all the PSB apps prominence, and if there were some financial support to do that, of course, it would transform the situation.

Okay. Sticking with Ofcom, do you have a view on the need for legislation to improve the prominence of public service content on connected devices?

Mae'r ymgynghoriad ac ymateb Ofcom wedi cael eu cyhoeddi. Rwy'n gwybod bod y Llywodraeth a'r DCMS yn edrych ar eu hymateb nhw i hyn nawr. Rwy'n amau bod yna drafodaeth eithaf dwys yn digwydd ar y funud amboutu pa fath o legislation bydd ei angen, yn hytrach nag os fydd ei angen.

The consultation and the response from Ofcom have been published. I know that the Government and the DCMS are looking at their response to that now. I suspect that there's quite an intense discussion happening at the moment regarding what kind of legislation will be required, rather than whether legislation will be needed.

Achos mae'r deis yn stacked yn erbyn darlledwyr cyhoeddus. Mae darlledwyr cyhoeddus angen pob help posib ac mae prominence yn bwysig iawn.

Because the dice are stacked against public service broadcasters. Public service broadcasters need all possible help and prominence is very important. 

Sure. In terms of the debate that's going on, Ofcom has launched Small Screen: Big Debate, which is looking at the future of public service broadcasting and is a sort of nationwide forum. Has S4C been involved, and are you happy with your involvement?

10:20

Mae yna rôl i S4C chwarae yn hyn. Bydd S4C yn ymateb i'r ymgynghoriad yma. Mae'n bwysicach, efallai, mewn ffordd, i ni nag unrhyw un arall, achos mae brand y BBC yn gyfarwydd iawn i bawb. Mae'n hawdd i'w ffeindio. Hyd yn oed ar iPlayer, mae S4C yn rhan fach, fach, fach o hynny. Yn y dyfodol, efo'r byd yn mynd yn fwy a mwy cymhleth, mae'r ffaith ein bod ni'n gallu cael cynnwys sydd yn lleol, y mae pobl yn gallu trystio, sydd gobeithio yn diddanu, yn bwysig. Mae'r ffaith ei fod e'n bosib i bobl golli ar y ffaith bod y cynnwys yma'n bodoli yn rhywbeth y mae'n rhaid inni fod yn wyliadwrus ohono. Felly, mae yna rôl fawr i S4C o fewn yr ymgynghoriad yma. 

S4C has a role to play in this. S4C will respond to this consultation. It's more important, perhaps, in a way, for us than anybody else, because the BBC's brand is very familiar to all. It's easy to find. Even on iPlayer, S4C is a very, very small part of that. In the future, with the world getting more and more complex, the fact that we can have content that is local, that people can trust, that hopefully entertains, is important. The fact that it's possible for people to lose the fact that this content exists is something that we have to be aware of. So, S4C has a role in this consultation.

Alla i jest ofyn cwestiwn clou ar y sylwad wnaethoch chi ar Netflix? Roeddech chi'n dweud ei fod e'n aggregate, ond dyw hynny ddim yn hollol wir, yw e?

Can I just ask a brief question on the comment you made on Netflix? You said that it was an aggregate service, but that's not entirely true, is it?

Bod Netflix yn aggregate, eu bod nhw'n casglu—

You said that Netflix was an aggregate service—

Sori; maen nhw yn comisiynu.

Sorry; they do commission.

Achos maen nhw yn comisiynu hefyd. Roeddwn i eisiau gwybod a ydych chi'n ymwybodol fod Netflix wedi comisiynu unrhyw beth o Gymru o ran Netflix Originals drwy'r iaith Gymraeg. Achos yn amlwg maen nhw'n gwneud lot o bethau mewn gwledydd eraill yn wreiddiol drwy'r iaith hynny. Ydych chi'n ymwybodol o unrhyw beth maen nhw wedi'i wneud?

Because they do commission too. I wanted to know are you aware that Netflix has commissioned anything from Wales in terms of Netflix Originals through the medium of Welsh. Because obviously they do a lot of things in other nations producing original content in those languages. Are you aware of anything that's happened?

Maen nhw wedi comisiynu rhaglenni yng Nghymru, ac maen nhw'n saethu stwff i Netflix yng Nghymru, ond dŷn nhw heb wneud dim byd—. Dŷn ni'n trio cael cyfarfod efo Netflix ar y funud. Dŷn nhw heb gomisiynu unrhyw beth yn yr iaith Gymraeg. Mae'n ddiddorol iawn beth sy'n digwydd efo Netflix. Yn yr Unol Daleithiau nawr mae Netflix newydd gyhoeddi, o hyn ymlaen, efo rhai cyfresi, y byddan nhw ddim yn eu rhyddhau nhw fel bocs sets. The appetite for box sets is insatiable. Y munud y maen nhw'n fyw, they're gone. Mae jest llenwi nawr, fel bod cynnwys newydd o safon i bobl—mae'n anodd. Dyna pam dwi'n credu bod Netflix newydd fynd, sy'n eithaf syfrdanol i Netflix, o'r model bocs sets i fodel ble maen nhw'n rhyddhau rhaglenni yn llinol, fel mae'r darlledwyr wedi bod yn ei wneud. Felly, mae'r byd yn newid. Mae'n rhaid inni gadw golwg ar beth sy'n digwydd. 

They've commissioned programmes in Wales, and they do shoot material for Netflix in Wales, but they haven't done anything—. We're trying to get a meeting with Netflix. But, they haven't commissioned anything through the medium of Welsh. It's very interesting what's happening with Netflix. In the States now Netflix has just announced, from now on, with certain series, they won't release them as box sets. The appetite for box sets is insatiable. The minute they go live, they're gone. Just getting quality new content for people is becoming difficult. That's why Netflix, which is quite shocking for Netflix, has gone from the box set model to a model where they release programming in a linear manner, as broadcasters have done traditionally. So, the world is changing. We have to keep an eye on what's happening.

Ocê. David Melding—effaith economaidd.

Okay. David Melding on the economic impact.

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. I just want to look at some of the economic impacts. You very helpfully have a graph—or map, rather—of the spread of spending. On the face of it, it looks quite encouraging, the spread that you have in terms of south, west and north Wales. I think during this financial year, 2018-19, you've had the move to Carmarthen. So, I'm not sure whether the pattern we see at the minute—which is 54 per cent for south Wales, which goes up to and includes Swansea, I suspect, does it, 18 per cent then for west and then 26 per cent for north Wales—is that going to change at all as a result of the location? Not massively, because most of that is your commissioning, I realise that. 

Dim ond y comisiynu sydd yn cael ei ddangos yn y graff yna, felly dyw effaith yr Egin ddim yn dod i fewn i hynny o gwbl. 

It's only the commissioning that's shown in that graph, so the impact of the Egin isn't included there. 

Rhywbeth diddorol—jest un pwynt ar hwnna—wrth gwrs, mae tîm Cymru mas yn Japan; Cymry Cymraeg o Gaerfyrddin sydd wedi'u lleoli yn yr Egin fydd yn gwneud ein cynnwys ni o Japan. Felly, mae'n arwydd; mae yna o leiaf tri neu bedwar cwmni yn yr Egin nawr yn cyflenwi gwasanaethau i S4C. Dwi'n credu bod hwnna'n rhywbeth y dylem ni glodfori. 

An interesting point just on that, of course, the Welsh team is out in Japan, and Welsh speakers from Carmarthen who are located in the Egin will be doing the content for us from Japan. So, it is a sign; there are at least three or four companies in the Egin now providing services to S4C. I think that is something that we should praise.

Dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni'n ymwybodol iawn o effaith economaidd gwariant S4C. Ond, ar hyd y blynyddoedd, ein blaenoriaeth ni, wrth gwrs, ydy comisiynu'r rhaglenni gorau ar y sgrin. Mae angen i'r gwasanaeth adlewyrchu Cymru gyfan, felly, mae yna duedd i'r rhaglenni ddod o bob man ta beth. Mae'r Egin yn benderfyniad gwahanol, a'r egwyddor oedd, os oedd hi'n bosib gwasgaru swyddi y tu allan i Gaerdydd, pan oedd yna gwestiwn yn codi ynglŷn ag adleoli p'un bynnag, os oedd hi'n bosib gwneud hynny heb i'r gwasanaeth ddioddef, yna roeddem ni'n dymuno gwneud. Mae pob arwydd hyd yn hyn yn addawol mai dyna sy'n digwydd.

I think we're highly aware of the economic impact of the S4C spend. But, over the years, our priority of course has been to commission the best possible programming for the screen. The service has to reflect the whole of Wales, so there is a tendency for the programming to come from all parts of Wales. Yr Egin is a different decision, but the principle was that if it was possible to disperse posts outwith Cardiff, when there was a question arising on relocation in any case, and if that could be done without the service suffering, then we would choose to do that. All signs are promising to date that that is what is happening.

10:25

I'm not asking this question because I fear the current spread is really disproportionate. I mean, I think, actually, it's probably quite a reasonable one because a lot of Welsh-speaking professionals live in and work around Cardiff. So, it would be easier for me just to say, 'Well, there are many more Welsh-speaking communities in west and north Wales', and, 'Why don't we see much greater proportionate spend?', but I suppose what you've done in moving to Carmarthen is a bit of a sign that more may be developed in those areas as part of your ongoing commitment, obviously, to the health of the language as a living language. 

Dwi'n cytuno. Dwi'n credu ei fod yn bwysig—. Mae rôl S4C bach yn wahanol. Dŷn ni yna i hybu'r iaith ac un o'r pethau roedden ni'n gweld—er bod yna concentration o gwmnïau, wrth gwrs, o gwmpas Caerdydd, pan ti'n cwrdd â nhw, wrth gwrs, mae'r rhan fwyaf o bobl wedi symud o bobman yng Nghymru. Beth roedden ni'n gweld, dwi'n credu, pan symudodd S4C—os oedden ni'n darllen y papurau, roedd rhywbeth bron fesul wythnos obeutu rhyw fuddsoddiad yng nghanol Caerdydd â swyddi, yn enwedig o gwmpas y Sgwâr Canolog, a dwi'n credu ei fod e'n bwysig i gyrff sy'n cael eu hariannu'n gyhoeddus i wneud statement am y ffaith ein bod ni'n mynd i drio mynd â'r swyddi da yma, i sicrhau bod pobl ifainc yn ardaloedd gwledig Cymru yn gallu cael swyddi o safon, sy'n talu'n dda, ac efo gyrfaoedd i'r dyfodol.

I agree. I think it's important—. S4C's role is a little bit different. We're there to promote the language, and one of the things that we're seeing is that even though there's a concentration, of course, of companies around Cardiff, when you meet them, of course, most of the people have moved from all parts of Wales. What we were seeing was that when S4C moved—if we were reading the papers, there was something nearly every week about some sort of investment in the centre of Cardiff regarding jobs, in particular around Central Square, and I think it is important for bodies that are being publicly funded to make a statement about the fact that we're going to try and take these good jobs, to ensure that young people in rural areas of Wales can have good jobs, which pay well, and with careers for the future.

And, then, on the move—and can I thank you, incidentally, for putting on the visit for me that I made? I was very impressed with the building, I have to say, and your ambition for it as, obviously, your headquarters, but also fitting into, in a very creative way, the local community. I genuinely was impressed. But for some people it was a difficult decision, wasn't it, and you are quite candid, it has to be noted, in your annual report, for which I commend you, that some people just couldn't make the move? That sort of dislocation—how was it managed in terms of the pastoral care for those people, and were there any more positive outcomes for those that, in the end, couldn't make the move but, perhaps, were helped in other ways to come to terms with that and seek other employment?

Mae yna ddyled ar S4C i'r bobl sydd wedi gadael. Dyma bobl, yn aml iawn, a oedd wedi gweithio, rhai ohonyn nhw, am ddegawdau i'r sianel ac yn rhan o lwyddiant y sianel dros y blynyddoedd. Felly, mae yna duty of care eithaf mawr gan S4C i'r bobl yma.

Agwedd S4C oedd nad oedden i eisiau neb i adael, ond, wrth gwrs, rhan o'r rheswm o symud i Gaerfyrddin oedd i greu swyddi newydd. Felly, roedd e'n ddisgwyliedig y buasai pobl yn gadael. Fe wnaethon ni wneud yn siŵr bod y sgiliau hanfodol yn cael eu cyfro, ond i bob un wnaeth benderfynu gadael S4C, fe eisteddodd pobl o adnoddau dynol i lawr efo nhw i drafod CVs, i drafod sut i fynd am swyddi a phethau fel hynny. Felly, roedd yna ryw fath o pastoral care i'r bobl oedd yn gadael S4C.

Nawr, dŷn ni ddim yn cadw record o beth mae pobl wedi gwneud wedyn, ond dwi'n gweld amryw o bobl sydd wedi gadael—a dwi'n gwybod bod y sgiliau oedd efo nhw yn eithaf marketable—ac mae sawl un ohonyn nhw wedi gwneud yn dda iawn ers gadael S4C. Dwi'n gweld llawer ohonyn nhw yn y diwydiant nawr. Felly, do, dwi'n credu gwnaeth S4C weithio mewn ffordd foesol iawn efo pobl wnaeth adael. I lawer—doedd e ddim yn benderfyniad roedd pobl yn croesawu, ond mae hynny'n digwydd pan mae newid mawr yn digwydd.

S4C has a duty of care for the people who have left. Many people had worked for the channel for decades and were part of the success of the channel over a period of years. So, there's a duty of care that's significant for S4C in terms of these people.

S4C's attitude was that we didn't want anyone to leave, but, of course, part of the reason for the move to Carmarthen was to create new jobs. So, it was expected that some people would leave. We did ensure that the key skills were covered, but for each of those that decided to leave S4C, our huam resources department sat down with them to discuss CVs, how to apply for new posts and all sorts of other things. So, there was some sort of pastoral care for those people who were leaving S4C.

Now, we don't keep a record of what people have done subsequently, but I see many of the people who have left—and I know that the skills they had were quite marketable—and many of them have prospered since leaving S4C. I see many of them still in the industry. So, yes, I believe S4C did work in an ethical manner with those people who left. For many—it wasn't a decision that people welcomed, but that happens when there is major change in any organisation.

And then my final area, really, is on the gender pay gap, which, again—your stats are clear and I think that's important for us to scrutinise. I was trying to find on my device what the average pay gap is in similar sectors and I'm afraid I couldn't find anything other than what the BBC gap is, but if you look at the mean gender gap, you're quoting 15 per cent. The BBC quotes 8.5 per cent for—

It's gone up now, David. It's gone up—. They gave us corrected statistics, so it's gone up, actually.

I beg your pardon. So, what is the actual statistic now?

We had it on e-mail. So, I don't know if S4C has it in front of them. I think it's 22—

10:30

Yes. The mean has gone from 15 to 21.4. 

And the median has gone from 22 to 28—27.7.

But there are specific—

There are specifics. It's an odd one, this, and when I saw the stats—. First of all, we don't have to publish them, but we're committed to diversity, so—

Yes, and, you know, as I said, I think candour is always helpful and it, sort of, strikes the right relationship with us, then, because at least we feel there's proper scrutiny going on and we don't have to dig to get there.

Yes, and I'm committed to diversity, so it's important to me. When I looked at the figures—they're going the wrong way. You can't ignore that. So, I looked into, 'Why is this happening?', and the question I always have to ask myself is, 'Have I got a structural problem with bias in the organisation?' Now, when I looked at it, what became clear was that, this time last year, roughly, we were about 50:50 men to women. This year, we're roughly 60:40 women to men. And what's happened is a number of—. This is largely down to the move to Carmarthen but also partly because of what's happened with the BBC—a lot of men have left the organisation from that middle tier. They were quite experienced, and we have recruited to those posts in the majority of cases at lower pay, because we were taking on people who hadn't got that experience, and the majority of people who took those jobs, particularly in Carmarthen, were women. So, what that's meant is the hollowing out, really, of the middle-earning men in the organisation, which means that now we have a skew towards women earning less within the organisation because they're doing the jobs with less experience. Now, that situation will change over the years.

I then looked at what the situation was for the higher earners. So, for example, from £40,000 upwards, we are 50:50, and then I looked at £50,000 upwards, where women, actually, on average, outperform the men. My own senior team is 60 per cent female, 40 per cent male. So, what I could hopefully prove was that I have not got a systemic problem in S4C where we have a gender pay problem.

Now, I'm never complacent about this, and one of the things we look at periodically with human resources is about, 'Have we got a problem? How can we nurture the talent to come through the organisation?', but I think we've had probably an exceptional change this year, which has meant that the figure has reversed, and I hope that that will improve in coming years. One of the things I've done this year, for example, is I've brought in anti-discriminatory bias training into the organisation, and every single member of staff has done that, including myself.

So, do you look at, say, the BBC and how they're doing—and I'm not saying necessarily they're an exemplar but they're probably the nearest thing in terms of what you're doing, in some respects, actually, and I suppose in other words they're not very comparable, but in terms of the commissioning role they have—? So, they're coming in at 8.5 per cent. I think their median would have been higher and they did receive quite a lot of criticism, I think, in the press they received as well. So, I just wonder what you're looking at for better practice, and then how you're going to get from better practice than what you have at the moment to best practice, and how long that's going to take. And is there a plan that we can look at at some point?

I think when it settles down, I'll probably do an exercise around what's for the future. I genuinely believe that if it wasn't for the exceptional items this year, the pay gap would have probably decreased. So, I think we have had an exceptional year, but I have looked at the BBC and what they do, and I have looked at Governments and what they do and also the private sector and what they do. We haven't got outliers in salaries. The BBC quite famously had some specific problems. I don't think we have that, but we have had a situation—. We're so small with 110 staff that it doesn't take too many people to move for the figures to be skewed quite strongly. But it's not something I'd ever be complacent about.

I think it would be helpful next year to have a specific part of your evidence just to say where you've got to, when you will have had a bit more time, perhaps, to analyse and plan for the medium term. 

Grêt. Dŷn ni ddim yn mynd i gael amser i fynd trwy'r cwestiynau eraill, ond fe wnawn ni ysgrifennu atoch chi ar y stwff masnachol a'r bartneriaeth gyda'r BBC. Ond mae Delyth Jewell yn cael gofyn cwestiwn ac wedyn byddwn ni'n gorffen.

Great. We're not going to have time to go through the other questions, but we will write to you on the commercial activity and the partnership with the BBC. But Delyth Jewell has a question and then we'll finish.

Cwestiwn cyflym: a oes gennych gynlluniau i roi'r hen raglenni mwy eiconig, fel C'mon Midffîld!, lan ar-lein fel archif neu rywbeth achos rwy'n meddwl—mae lot o bobl wedi dweud wrthyf fi efallai y byddai gofyn am hynny, a byddai hynna efallai'n helpu mwy o bobl i ddefnyddio'r iaith. Rwyf i'n meddwl y byddai gofyn am hynny yn sicr—demand.

Just a quick question: do you have any plans to put the more iconic old programmes, such as C'mon Midffîld!, on archive? Many people have told me have told me that there would be demand for that, and that would perhaps help more people to use the language. I think there would be a demand for that, certainly.

10:35

Mae pawb yn gofyn am C'mon Midffîld!—[Chwerthin.] Mae lot ohono fe o gwmpas hawliau a sicrhau hawliau'r rhaglenni yma, ond ein strategaeth ni yw—pob chwarter nawr, dŷn ni'n rhoi cyfresi newydd fel bocs sets ar Clic. Dŷn ni wedi dangos C'mon Midffîld! ar y prif sgrin. Mae e'n gwneud yn weddol. Efallai ambell waith fod pobl yn dweud eu bod nhw'n ei wylio fe ond efallai ddim yn gwylio cystal. Ond dŷn ni mewn proses bob chwarter nawr o benderfynu pa gyfresi i roi ar Clic. Nawr, i ddechrau, rhywbeth golygyddol i S4C oedd e, roedden ni'n eistedd mewn ystafell a gweithio mas, 'Reit, beth ŷn ni'n mynd i roi mas?', ac wedyn gweld sut oedd e'n gweithio. Y broses nawr yw bod lot mwy o drafod efo'r gynulleidfa obeutu pa gyfresi ydych chi eisiau, so mae hwnna'n bodoli, ac efallai y bydd C'mon Midffîld! a phethau fel hynny—. Ond beth mae'n rhaid inni watsio yw bod dramâu, wrth gwrs, lot yn ddrutach inni eu dangos ar Clic, achos mae cymaint o bobl yn rhan o'r peth.

Everyone asks about C'mon Midffîld!—[Laughter.] Much of it is around rights and securing the rights to these programmes, but our strategy is that, every quarter, we provide new series on box sets available on Clic. We have shown C'mon Midffîld! onscreen. It does okay. People sometimes say that they do watch, but perhaps don't necessarily do so. But we are in a process every quarter now of deciding which series should be available on Clic as box sets. Now, initially, it was an editorial issue for S4C, and we'd sit in a room and decide what we were going to put out there and then see how it worked. The process now is a lot more about discussing with audiences as to what they want to see, so that is ongoing, and perhaps C'mon Midffîld! and other such programmes will be available. But what we have to guard against, of course, is that drama is a lot more expensive for us to show on Clic, because there are so many people involved with production.

Y cwestiwn olaf, olaf i Huw Jones, gan eich bod chi efallai ddim yn mynd i ddod nôl atom eto: a oes gennych chi unrhyw farn ynglŷn â beth fyddech chi'n hoffi i'r cadeirydd neu S4C wneud i'r dyfodol? Roeddech chi wedi sylwi, mewn ymateb i'r DCMS, fod yna ddim canllawiau ar gyfer y dyfodol o ran rhyw fath o fformiwla pennu cyllid penodol. Oes gennych chi farn—beth fyddech chi'n ei ddweud wrth y cadeirydd newydd i edrych arno?

A very final question to Huw Jones, as perhaps you won't return to us again: do you have any view as to what you would like to see the new chair or S4C do for the future? You had noted, in response to DCMS, that there was no guidance for the future in terms of a formula for deciding on funding. Do you have a view—what would you say to the new chair that they should be looking at?

Dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna yn un o'r pethau y byddai—petasai yna ganllawiau wedi bodoli ynglŷn â sut mae penderfynu beth yw anghenion rhesymol ariannol S4C, byddai hynny wedi osgoi llawer iawn o drafferthion inni yn y gorffennol. Dyw hi ddim yn beth iach bod S4C yn mynd yn bêl-droed gwleidyddol. Mae hi'n bwysig bod yr iaith y tu allan i faes gwleidyddiaeth bleidiol. Dŷn ni wedi bod yn lwcus bod cefnogaeth i S4C wedi cael ei mynegi ar lawr y Senedd lawer o weithiau gan wleidyddion o bob plaid, ac mae hynny yn bwysig. Y ffordd, felly, i sicrhau nad oes yna ddadlau gwleidyddol mwy aml nac sydd yn angenrheidiol weithiau, efallai, ydy bod yna ryw fath o ganllawiau—'Dyma sut dŷn ni'n mesur beth yw anghenion ariannol y sianel o gymharu gyda hyn, llall ac arall.' Rhywbeth o'r math yna y byddwn i'n—

I do think that that is one of the things—if there had been guidance as to how decisions are made based on the reasonable financial requirements of S4C, then that would have avoided many difficulties for us in the past. It's not healthy that S4C becomes a political football. It's important that the language should be outwith party politics. We have been fortunate that support for S4C has been expressed in Parliament many times by politicians of all parties, and that's important. Therefore, the means of ensuring that there isn't this political knockabout more than is sometimes necessary is that there should be some sort of guidance—'This is how we measure what the financial needs of the channel are, compared with this, that and the other.' It's that kind of formula that we want to see.

A byddech chi eisiau i S4C barhau i ofyn am i hynny ddigwydd yn y dyfodol.

And would you want S4C to continue to request that that happens for the future?

Byddwn. Roedden ni wedi gobeithio y byddai yna rywbeth o'r fath yn dod allan o'r adolygiad, ond dwi'n meddwl bod y remit a roddwyd i'r adolygydd yn eithaf cyfyng. Roedd hwnna'n un o'r bylchau byddwn i'n dweud sy'n dal i fodoli.

Yes. We had hoped that there would be something similar emerging from the review, but I do think that the remit given to the reviewer was quite narrow. That's one of the gaps that I think still exist.

Ocê. Iawn. Diolch yn fawr iawn am eich amser, a byddwn ni'n ysgrifennu atoch chi gyda rhai cwestiynau dŷn ni ddim wedi cael amser i'w gofyn i chi, ond diolch yn fawr iawn am eich amser.

Okay. Right. Thank you very much for your time, and we will write to you with some questions that we haven't had time to ask you, but thank you very much for your time.

A diolch ichi am eich diddordeb yn y maes darlledu ar hyd y blynyddoedd. Mae'n bwysig iawn.

And thank you for your interest in the broadcasting field over the years. It's very important.

Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi.

Byddwn ni'n cymryd seibiant o ddwy funud nawr, cyn y sesiwn nesaf. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you very much.

We'll now take a break of two minutes before the next session. Thank you

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:38 a 10:44.

The meeting adjourned between 10:38 and 10:44.

10:40
3. Craffu Blynyddol ar waith Comisiynydd y Gymraeg
3. Annual scrutiny of the Welsh Language Commissioner

Diolch, a chroeso yn ôl i'r pwyllgor. Eitem 3 ar yr agenda yw craffu blynyddol ar waith Comisiynydd y Gymraeg. Croeso yma heddiw i Dyfan Sion, cyfarwyddwr strategol, a hefyd i Gwenith Price. Does gen i ddim eich swydd ddisgrifiad o fy mlaen i, sori, Gwenith, os wyt ti eisiau ei ddweud e am y record.

Thank you, and welcome back to the committee. Item 3 on our agenda is annual scrutiny of the work of the Welsh Language Commissioner. We welcome Dyfan Sion, strategic director, and Gwenith Price. I don't have your title in front of me, but if you could tell us for the record.

10:45

Diolch yn fawr. Dwi'n gweithio fel cyfarwyddwr sy'n gyfrifol am y rheoleiddio a'r gorfodi, ond dwi hefyd yn dirprwyo i Aled yn achlysurol.

I work as the director responsible for regulation and enforcement, but I'm also deputy commissioner for Aled on an occasional basis.

Grêt. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Hefyd, wrth gwrs, Aled Roberts, sef Comisiynydd y Gymraeg. Felly, croeso i chi i gyd, a chroeso i Aled Roberts am y tro cyntaf i’r pwyllgor yma ac i’r swydd. Mae’n siŵr bydd pawb yn hapus i’ch gweld chi eto yn yr un pwyllgor ond mewn safle gwahanol. Diolch i chi oll am ddod.

Fel arfer, mae gennym gwestiynau ar sail themâu gwahanol yn y pwyllgor yma, ac felly, rŷn ni, fel arfer, yn mynd yn syth i gwestiynau, os mae hynny’n iawn. Ac, wrth gwrs, mae rhwydd hynt i chi ymhelaethu ar yr hyn rŷn ni’n ei ofyn.

Felly, yn gyntaf gen i, yn sicr, cyfle i ofyn i chi beth yw’ch gweledigaeth chi fel comisiynydd newydd: ydych chi’n gweld eich bod chi eisiau gwneud pethau’n wahanol i’r cyn-gomisiynydd? A sut mae hynny’n mynd i edrych o ran yr hyn rŷch chi’n ei wneud o ran blaenoriaethau gwaith ac o ran eich agwedd, felly, tuag at y swydd yn benodol?

Great. Thank you. We are also joined by Aled Roberts, the Welsh Language Commissioner. Welcome and a particularly warm welcome to Aled Roberts for the first time in this committee and to the post, in fact. I'm sure that everyone will be happy to see you again in the same committee but in a different seat. Thank you, all, for joining us.

As per usual, we have questions that are themed in this committee and we usually move immediately to questions, if that's okay. And, of course, you can provide answers to those questions as you choose.

The first question from me is an opportunity to ask you what your vision is as new commissioner: do you want to work differently to your predecessor? And how is that going to look in terms of what you do, in terms of your working priorities and your approach to the post in general?

Wel, yn y lle cyntaf, ces i gyfnod trosiannol o ryw chwe wythnos, felly roedd hynny’n help i mi ddod i ddeall y sefydliad, dechrau nabod y staff, y strwythurau, ond mi oedd yna berig, dwi’n meddwl. Dwi’n wreiddiol o’r gogledd-ddwyrain; dwi wedi treulio’n oes yn y gogledd-ddwyrain, ac roedd yna berig, felly, fy mod i’n dod at y swydd jest ar sail y profiadau yna. Felly, gwnes i gymryd rhyw dau neu dri mis i fynd o gwmpas Cymru, cyfarfod efo grwpiau cymunedol, sefydliadau, eu hunain, i weld beth oedd eu hargraffiadau nhw o ran yr heriau o ran cyflwyno gwasanaethau, ond hefyd profiadau dinasyddion ynglŷn â phroblemau roedden nhw’n eu gweld o ddydd i ddydd.

Dwi’n meddwl y peth pwysicaf i mi ei ddweud ydy fy mod i wedi gweld, yn ystod y cyfnod yna, fod y safonau yn dechrau gweithio, eu bod nhw’n effeithiol, a bod hynny’n dod o’r sefydliadau eu hunain yn dweud eu bod nhw wedi gweld gwella o ran y gwasanaethau oedd yn cael eu darparu. Ond, wedi dweud hynny, dwi’n meddwl mai’r broblem fwyaf gwnes i ei gweld, yn arbennig, felly, yn y gogledd-ddwyrain, ond yn drawiadol iawn yn y de-ddwyrain, oedd pobl ifanc oedd wedi treulio rhyw 12, 13 mlynedd o fewn ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg, yn rhugl llwyr yn 16 oed o fewn yr ysgolion hynny, ond eto, pan oeddwn i’n trafod efo nhw yn 20 oed, mi oedd nifer fawr ohonyn nhw ddim wedi cael unrhyw gyfle i ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg ar ôl gadael ysgol, ac, o achos hynny, yn colli hyder a ddim yn awyddus i wneud defnydd o’r gwasanaethau hynny o achos hynny.

Felly, dwi’n gweld bod defnydd yn hollbwysig, ac, o achos hynny, mi fyddwn ni’n defnyddio'r system rheoleiddio, ond, mwy na hynny hefyd, hwyrach, yn rhoi mwy o egni i mewn i’r gwaith hybu a hyrwyddo, achos, yn amlwg, mae’r safonau yn creu’r strwythur o ran y sefydliadau cyhoeddus, ond mi ydyn ni hefyd yn cydweithio â’r sector breifat a hefyd elusennau a’r trydydd sector o ran cynyddu'r ddarpariaeth o ran y Gymraeg er mwyn ysgogi defnydd. A dwi’n gweld bod hyn yn cyd-fynd â strategaeth y Llywodraeth, achos dwi’n meddwl bod yna berig inni jest canolbwyntio ar y strategaeth sydd yn rhoi targed inni o filiwn o siaradwyr. Ond dwi’n meddwl bod yna darged llawer iawn pwysicach o fewn y strategaeth, sef ein bod ni’n dyblu canran y boblogaeth sydd yn defnyddio’r Gymraeg bob dydd, achos ofer byddai’r holl waith sy'n mynd rhagddo os dŷn ni, erbyn 2050, yn yr un sefyllfa ag Iwerddon, lle mae gan yr iaith statws swyddogol, lle mae yna ddarpariaeth, ond prin iawn ydy’r defnydd dyddiol o’r iaith. Beth dwi’n awyddus i’w weld ydy iaith sydd yn iaith fyw ac iaith sydd yn perthyn i holl bobl Cymru.

Well, first of all, I had a six-week handover period, so that was a help for me to understand the institution. I got to know the staff and the structures, but there was a risk, I think. I'm originally from the north-east; I've spent my lifetime in the north-east, and there was a risk that I approached the post based on my own experiences there. So, I took some two or three months to travel around Wales, I met with community groups, organisations, in order to see what their impressions were in terms of the challenges in terms of the delivery of services, but also the experiences of citizens in terms of the problems that they encounter on a day-to-day basis.

I think the most important thing for me to say is that I did see, during that period, that the standards were starting to have an effect, that they were effective, and that came from organisations themselves saying that they had seen an improvement in terms of the services provided. Having said that, I think the major problem that I identified, particularly in the north-east, but very strikingly in the south-east too, was young people who had spent 12 or 13 years within Welsh-medium schools who were fluent at 16 within those schools, but, again, when I discussed with them when they were 20, many of them hadn't had any opportunity to use the Welsh language once they'd left school. And, as a result, they lost confidence and weren't eager to use those services available as a result of that.

So, I believe that usage is crucially important and, because of that, we will be using the regulatory system. But, more than that, we'll be perhaps putting more energy into the promotion and marketing work, because, clearly, standards create structures for public institutions and organisations, but we're also working with the private sector and charities in the third sector in terms of increasing the provision in terms of the Welsh language in order to encourage usage of those services. And I see that this aligns with the Government's strategy. Because I do think that there is a risk that we simply focus on the strategy that provides us with a target of a million Welsh speakers, but I think that there is a far more important target within the strategy, namely that we double the percentage of the population who use the Welsh language on a daily basis, because all of the work that's ongoing would be in vain if, by 2050, we're in the same situation as Ireland, where the language has official status, where there is provision, but there is very little use of the language on a daily basis. What I'm eager to see is a language that is a living language and a language that belongs to all the people of Wales.

Diolch am hynny. Dwi’n credu gwnaethoch chi ddweud bod yna ffocws gormodol—a dyna’r geiriau—ar statws, ystadegau a nifer y siaradwyr. Ydych chi’n credu ei fod e’n mynd i fod yn hawdd i chi geisio cael balans? Achos, yn sicr, byddai’n rhaid ichi wneud y pethau ystadegau a statws yn ogystal â hybu defnydd, hybu a hyrwyddo. Felly, ydych chi'n credu bod y capasiti—dwi ddim eisiau mynd i mewn i gyllid nawr—yn y system i chi allu cael balans gwell o ran yr hyn sy'n cael ei gynnig gan y comisiynydd?

Thank you for that. I think you said that there had been too much focus on statistics and the number of speakers. Do you think it'll be easy for you to strike that balance? Because, certainly, you'd have to focus on statistics and status as well as promoting use. So, do you think you have the capacity—I don't want to go into funding now—but do you think that you have the capacity within the system to enable you to strike that balance in terms of what's provided by the commissioner?

10:50

Mae yna heriau, achos mae'r cyfrifoldebau rheoleiddio yn statudol. Hefyd, does gennym ni ddim rheolaeth dros nifer yr achosion sy'n cael eu cyfeirio atom ni, felly mae'n rhaid inni sicrhau bod yna adnoddau digonol o fewn y swyddfa. Dwi'n gweld bod rheoleiddio a hybu a hyrwyddo yn mynd llaw yn law, a dweud y gwir—dwi ddim yn gweld bod y pethau ar wahân—ond beth dŷn ni angen ei wneud, hwyrach, ydy gwneud y defnydd mwyaf effeithiol o reoleiddio er mwyn cynyddu defnydd. 

Ar hyn o bryd, mae yna anghysondeb o ran natur y gwasanaethau sy'n cael eu darparu gan rai cyrff cyhoeddus. Dŷn ni, hwyrach, wedi cyrraedd y man lle mae yna fwy o ddarpariaeth nag yr oedd yna cyn i safonau cael eu cyflwyno, ond, os dŷch chi yn ddefnyddiwr o wasanaethau Cymraeg a dŷch chi'n dod ar draws sefyllfa lle dyw e ddim yn bosib i chi gael gwasanaeth yn gyfan gwbl yn y Gymraeg ar ôl i chi ofyn amdano fo, mae yna berig y tro nesaf byddwch chi'n defnyddio gwasanaeth Saesneg. Felly, mae rheoleiddio, hybu a hyrwyddo'n mynd llaw yn law, ond, oes, mae yna wrthdaro posib, a'n cyfrifoldeb ni, fel tîm rheoli, ydy sicrhau bod yna ddigonedd neu gymaint o adnoddau’n mynd i mewn i hybu a hyrwyddo â phosib.

There are challenges, because the regulatory responsibilities are statutory. Also, we have no control over the number of cases referred to us, so we do have to ensure that there are sufficient resources within the office. I see regulation and promotion as being two halves of the same coin—I don't see them as being separate—but what we need to do, perhaps, is to make the best use of regulation in order to increase usage.

At the moment, there is inconsistency in terms of the nature of the services provided by some public bodies. We have, perhaps, reached a point where there is more provision than there was before the introduction of standards, but, if you are a Welsh-language service user and you find a situation where it's not possible for you to have a service entirely through the medium of Welsh once you've requested it, there is a risk that you will turn to the English-language service the next time. So, regulation and promotion go hand in hand, but, yes, there is a possible conflict, and our responsibility, as a management team, is to ensure that as much resource as possible goes into promotion.

Ocê. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Cwestiynau nawr gan Mick Antoniw.

Thank you very much. Questions now from Mick Antoniw.

I'm very pleased with the comments you make about usage, because I think this is a theme that is coming through in all cases—practice over process. You can have the process, but if the process doesn't lead to the practice then you're achieving very, very little. This seems to be a theme that is emerging, really, when you look at languages all over the world—that that is the key thing, what is the default process. Now, with the standards—there have obviously been big impacts in terms of the health thing. I wonder if you'd just perhaps start off—I've got a few questions, but what you think has been the main progress that actually has been achieved? What do you think is actually happening that is different, that is better for the language now than it was in terms of the usage, as opposed to just the process?

Dwi'n meddwl bod y darlun yn wahanol ar draws Cymru a dweud y gwir. Mae yna fannau yn y gogledd-ddwyrain a'r de-ddwyrain lle mae'r waelodlin yn eithaf isel, felly mae'r safonau wedi galluogi rhai cyrff i gyflwyno gwasanaethau yn y Gymraeg doedd ddim yna cynt. Os dŷn ni'n mynd i'r gorllewin, hwyrach mae'r sefyllfa a'r sgwrs braidd yn wahanol, lle, hwyrach, mae yna fwy o ddefnydd yn draddodiadol, ond mi oedd yna gyrff a oedd yn gweinyddu'n gyfan gwbl yn Saesneg, ac, erbyn hyn, mae'r sgwrs wedi dechrau ynglŷn â, hwyrach, rhan o'u gweinyddu mewnol nhw, er enghraifft. Achos mae yna safonau sy'n ymwneud â darparu gwasanaethau ac mae yna gynnydd wedi bod yn hynny. Os dŷch chi'n edrych ar y ffigurau o fewn yr adroddiad sicrwydd—mae yna bobl o fewn y de-ddwyrain, er enghraifft, dros 60 y cant, yn dweud bod yna gynnydd wedi bod yn y gwasanaethau sydd ar gael.

Ond hefyd mae yna safonau pwysig o ran polisïau ac mae yna safonau pwysig o ran gweinyddu mewnol hefyd. A, hwyrach, wrth inni weld sefyllfa lle mae'r safonau wedi bod yn weithredol am gyfnod eithaf sylweddol erbyn hyn, mae yna le i ni ofyn cwestiynau mwy elfennol o ran beth mae rhai cyrff yn ei wneud o ran gweinyddu'n fewnol. Felly, i bob pwrpas, ond Cyngor Gwynedd sydd yn gweinyddu'n fewnol, er enghraifft. Os dŷch chi'n siaradwr Cymraeg, mae yna le i chi yn y cyngor yna weithio yn y Gymraeg. Mae yna sgyrsiau tebyg wedi dechrau efo Cyngor Sir Ynys Môn, efo Cyngor Sir Gâr, lle, hwyrach, mae yna gyfleodd yn cael eu rhoi i bobl i weithio yn y Gymraeg, sydd yn rhan o'r strategaeth yma o wneud y Gymraeg yn arferol, yn naturiol, a doedd hynny ddim yn bodoli cyn y safonau. Dwi'n cofio, er enghraifft, fy nyddiau cynnar i yng nghyngor Wrecsam lle ces i ar ddweud doedd gen i ddim yr hawl i siarad neu yrru e-bost yn y Gymraeg at aelod o staff. Dydy'r math yna o sefyllfa ddim yn bodoli erbyn hyn, diolch i Dduw.

I think the picture is different across Wales, really. There are areas in the north-east and the south-east where the baseline is quite low, so the standards have enabled some bodies to introduce services through the medium of Welsh that weren't there before. If we go to the west, perhaps the situation and their discussion is a little bit different, where, perhaps, there is more use traditionally, but there were bodies that were administering completely through the medium of English, and, by now, the conversation has started with regard to part of their internal administration, perhaps. Because there are standards that relate to the provision of services and there's been an increase in that. If you look at the figures in the assurance report—there are people in the south-east, for example, over 60 per cent, who say that an increase has been in the services available.

But also there are important standards in terms of policies and there are important standards in terms of administration. And, perhaps, as we see a situation where the standards have been in place for quite a significant period by now, there is room for us to ask more basic questions in terms of what some bodies are doing in terms of their internal administration. So, to all purposes, it's only Gwynedd Council that is doing this, for example. If you're a Welsh speaker, there is a place for you in that council to work through the medium of Welsh. There are similar conversations that have begun with Anglesy council and Carmarthenshire council, where perhaps there are opportunities available for people to work through the medium of Welsh, which is part of the strategy to make the Welsh language normal and that didn't exist before the standards. I remember, for example, my early days on Wrexham council, where I was told that I didn't have the right to speak or send an e-mail through the medium of Welsh to a member of staff. That sort of situation doesn't exist now, thank goodness.

10:55

But, in terms of any sort of evidential base of evaluating what change has taken place and what the impact is—. I mean, those things—I think we all noted, really from the 1970s onwards, that there had been substantial change. How do you evaluate the increase in usage—the actual impact of allowing people—? What evidence is there? How would you describe the changes—

Mae yna un problem efo defnydd. Does yna ddim cysondeb ynghylch natur y defnydd sy'n cael ei recordio, ac mae hynny'n ddarn o waith dŷn ni'n awyddus i'w wneud yn ystod y flwyddyn yma, lle dŷn ni'n trafod efo cynghorau, er enghraifft, fel bod yna ddealltwriaeth cyson o ran beth ydy defnydd. Felly, mae'n anoddach i ddweud yn union beth ydy'r cynnydd o fewn defnydd neu beth ydy'r—. Medraf i roi ffigurau ichi o ran arolygon sydd wedi cael eu gwneud, ond mae cael data cadarn, diogel, yn anoddach o achos does yna ddim gofyn o fewn y safonau i unrhyw gorff, er enghraifft, gasglu data ynglŷn â defnydd iaith. Dwi ddim yn gwybod os wyt ti eisiau—.

There is one problem with usage. There is no consistency in terms of the nature of the usage recorded, and that is a piece of work that we're eager to do during this year, where we do discuss with councils, for example, so there is a consistent understanding in terms of what usage looks like. It's more difficult to say exactly what any increase has been in usage. I can give you some figures in terms of surveys that have been carried out, but actually getting robust data is more difficult because there is no requirement within the standards for any organisation or body to gather data on language usage. I don't know if you want to add to that.

Dros y pum mlynedd diwethaf, dŷn ni wedi bod yn cynhyrchu adroddiad sicrwydd, a rhan o hwnna ydy mynd allan at ddefnyddwyr a deall beth sy'n eu rhwystro nhw rhag defnyddio'r Gymraeg a thrafod. Dŷn ni wedi gwneud gwaith cysgodi lle dŷn ni wedi bod yn comisiynu, neu ei wneud o ein hunain, ymyriadau i wylio beth ydy patrymau. Dŷn ni hefyd wedi bod yn gweithio efo'r cyrff cyhoeddus eu hunain. Mae yna safon lle mae disgwyl iddyn nhw hybu gwasanaethau, ac, ar ôl gwneud astudiaeth o'r graddau mae hynny'n digwydd, dydy o ddim. Ychydig iawn o gyrff cyhoeddus sydd yn rhagweithiol yn hybu ac yn annog pobl i'w defnyddio, ac mae yna ystadegau, dwi'n meddwl, yn yr adroddiad sicrwydd yn dweud bod 33 y cant o bobl yn dewis defnyddio'r Gymraeg ond mi fuasai 42 y cant yn licio ei wneud pe baen nhw'n cael rhyw anogaeth ac yn gweld sut i fynd at y gwasanaeth Cymraeg.

Mae yna rwystrau, fel diffyg dilyniant. Weithiau, mi gewch chi, 'Pwyswch Rhif 1,' ac wedyn dŷch chi'n gwneud y dewis a dydy'r gwasanaeth ddim yno. Mae yna nifer o enghreifftiau tebyg yn yr adroddiad. Ond dwi'n meddwl bod yn rhaid inni wneud gwaith llawer mwy dwys, a dydy o ddim mor syml â gweithio efo defnyddwyr; mae'n rhaid inni weithio efo'r cyrff cyhoeddus hefyd i gael ansawdd i'r gwasanaethau ac i rannu'r adborth dŷn ni'n ei gael gan ddefnyddwyr ynglŷn â sut i gynllunio a dylunio gwasanaeth. Mi allwn ni hefyd, wrth gwrs, wneud ymgyrchoedd i hyrwyddo. Mae gennym ni Iaith Gwaith, a dŷn ni wedi bod yn gwneud ymgyrchoedd. Fe wnaethon ni ymgyrch hefo myfyrwyr colegau pan ddaeth y safonau i mewn. Mae gennym ni waith dadansoddi ar hwnna sy'n dangos bod yr ymgyrch wedi cael effaith.

Ond mae yna dipyn o waith i'w wneud, ac mae o'n golygu adnoddau. Dwi'n meddwl ei fod o'n un o bileri yn strategaeth y Llywodraeth, ac, wrth i fwy o gyrff ddod o dan y safonau, mae natur ein gwaith ni angen dyfnhau, ond yn sicr dŷn ni wedi bod yn cynllunio ac yn datblygu yn raddol, ond mae angen rŵan mwy o fuddsoddiad, dwi'n meddwl, yn yr ochr yna o'r safonau, o ran gwasanaeth a defnydd mewnol hefyd.

Over the last five years, we've been producing an assurance report, and part of that has been going out to users and understanding what prevents them from using the Welsh language. We've undertaken shadowing work, where we have been commissioning, or doing it ourselves, a look at patterns. We've also been working with the public bodies themselves. There is a standard where they're expected to promote services, and, after conducting a study into the extent that that is happening, it's not. Very few public bodies are proactive in promotion and encouraging people to use the language, and there are statistics, I think, in the assurance report that say that 33 per cent of people do choose to use the Welsh language, but 42 per cent would like to do so if they had some sort of encouragement or could see how to access the Welsh service.

There are barriers, such as lack of continuity. Sometimes, you'll have, 'Press No. 1', and then you do make that choice, and the service isn't there. There are a number of similar examples in the report. But I think that we have to do much more intense work, and it's not as simple as working with users; we have to work with the public bodies as well to get quality in these services and to share the feedback that we have from users on how to plan and design services. We can also have promotional campaigns. We have Iaith Gwaith, and we have had campaigns. We had a campaign with students when the standards came in, and we have analysis work that's been undertaken on that showing that the campaign did have an impact.

But there's quite a lot of work to do, and it does mean resources. I think it's one of the pillars in the strategy of the Government, and, as more and more bodies come under the standards, the nature of our work needs to be intensified, but certainly we have been planning and developing gradually, but there is a need now for more investment, I think, in that aspect of standards, and in terms of service and internal usage.

Okay. Well, obviously, that's going to be a very, very important piece of work, because that is almost a key measure, it seems to me, of real progress. You could educate the entire country so that everyone knows Welsh—I mean, you give the Irish example, which I think is a very, very good one, and that is but what actually promotes, facilitates and enables usage. So, that measurement's really important.

A lot of your work is also actually with the private sector, although not necessarily covered by some of the standards, in circumstances, but, nevertheless, there's clearly a lot of work going on. I wonder if you could outline what success there has been there, what work precisely is going on with the private sector, and then also with the third sector.

Iawn. Mae yna lot o sylw—mi oedd yna gytundeb efo'r Llywodraeth ein bod ni'n canolbwyntio ar y sector banciau ac archfarchnadoedd yn y lle cyntaf, o achos bod yna brinder adnoddau, i bob pwrpas. Felly, mae yna fforymau sy'n cael eu cynnal efo'r banciau ac efo'r archfarchnadoedd yn rheolaidd. Os dwi'n onest, rydym ni wedi gweld tipyn o symud o ran y banciau o ran eu lleoliadau o fewn y stryd fawr, ond rydym ni braidd yn rhwystredig o ran y symud sydd wedi bod o ran gwasanaethau ar-lein, er enghraifft. Mi ydym ni wedi cael perthynas eithaf cadarn efo Metro Bank, sydd yn symud i Gaerdydd. Rydym ni wedi bod yn gweithio yn agos iawn efo nhw o ran eu polisïau recriwtio, er enghraifft, i'w wneud o'n bosibl i bobl fynnu gwasanaeth yn y Gymraeg.

Ond dwi'n meddwl erbyn hyn bod y ffocws o ran y banciau yn symud i'r gwasanaethau ar-lein. Mi fyddwn ni yn cynnal fforwm arall ymhen pythefnos lle mae yna uwchgynrychiolwyr o'r banciau, rhai ohonyn nhw o Lundain, yn dod draw i Gaerdydd i drafod efo ni beth yn union ydy'r rhwystrau o ran cyflwyno gwasanaethau ar-lein yn y Gymraeg. Os dwi'n onest, mae yna nifer ohonyn nhw yn dweud mai cost ydy o; felly, beth rydym ni wedi'i wneud ydy rydym ni wedi dod efo cwmnïau sydd wedi'u lleoli yng Nghymru sydd yn dweud ei bod hi'n bosibl iddyn nhw ddarparu gwasanaethau yn y Gymraeg ar lai o gost na beth mae'r pencadlys yn Llundain yn ei awgrymu.

Yn y pen draw, fy marn i yn bersonol ydy: rydym ni yn awyddus iawn i wneud popeth fedrwn ni i hyrwyddo ac i berswadio, ond yn amlwg, yn y pen draw, mae yna bwynt yn cyrraedd lle rydym ni'n dweud, wel, rydym ni wedi bod yn trafod efo'r rhai yma am dair neu bedair blynedd, a dwi'n eithaf sicr fy marn ein bod ni wedi gwneud cymaint â fedrwn ni, ond mi fydd hyrwyddo a pherswadio ddim yn newid y gêm o ran yr iaith Gymraeg. Felly, yr unig beth a fedraf i ei wneud ar ddiwedd y cyfnod yna ydy dweud wrth y Llywodraeth, 'Gwrandewch, rydym ni wedi gwneud popeth o fewn ein gallu ni i newid y sefyllfa yma, ond yn y pen draw, maen nhw'n gwrthod.' Ac os ydyn nhw'n gwrthod, mater gwleidyddol i chi ydy o, o ran y safonau a'r sector breifat.

Mae union yr un drafodaeth yn cael ei chynnal efo'r archfarchnadoedd. Rydym ni wedi gweld llwyddiant ysgubol efo rhai archfarchnadoedd, megis—rhaid imi fod yn ofalus fy mod i ddim ar y BBC rŵan yn enwi—Aldi a Lidl, er enghraifft. Rydym ni wedi cael perthynas da iawn efo'r Co-op, lle, o achos ein hymdrechion ni, mae'r tils hunanwasanaeth erbyn hyn yn gwbl ddwyieithog. Rydych chi'n gwybod bod yna rai archfarchnadoedd megis—. Yr unig fethiant ar hyn o bryd o ran tiliau hunanwasanaeth yn y Gymraeg ydy Sainsbury's. Felly, mae Sainsbury's ar dop y rhestr o ran ymdrechion yn ystod y chwe mis nesaf.

Mae'r tîm hybu yn gwneud gwaith arbennig o dda. Mae gennym ni bartneriaeth gref efo'r WCVA, er enghraifft; rydym ni'n cynnal sesiynau efo nhw o ran hyfforddiant staff, er mwyn i staff fod yn ymwybodol o beth sydd ei angen. Mae yna fforwm elusennau hefyd sy'n cael ei greu yn ystod y deufis nesaf. Rydym ni'n canlyn union yr un patrwm â'r banciau, lle bydd pob elusen yn cael cyfle i ddod atom ni i weld beth yn union rydym ni yn medru ei gynnig o ran cefnogaeth.

Ond mae yna waith da yn mynd ymlaen; ddoe, roeddwn i'n clywed gan yr NSPCC, er enghraifft—eu bod nhw wedi bod yn ceisio cynyddu nifer y staff dwyieithog sydd o fewn eu pencadlys galwadau nhw ym Mhrestatyn, sydd wedi bod yn llwyddiant. Mae hynny o achos y cydweithio rhwng ein swyddfa ni a nhw. Mae perthynas da iawn efo Barnardo's yn yr un modd, a beth rydym ni'n awyddus i'w wneud ydy dangos i elusennau, rhai ohonyn nhw sydd yn cael eu rheoli o du allan i Gymru, bod yna waith da, bod yna arfer da, ein bod ni'n rhannu'r arfer da, a'n bod ni ddim yn dweud, 'Wel, dyma beth fuaswn i'n ei wneud'; rydym ni'n dweud, 'Wel, dyma beth mae Barnardo's a dyma beth mae'r NSPCC wedi medru ei wneud efo adnoddau cyfyngedig. Mae yna fodd ichi wneud yn union yr un ffordd.'

Okay. There was an agreement with Government that we should focus on banking and supermarkets in the first instance, because there was a shortage of resources, to all intents and purposes. So, there are fora that are being held with the banks and with the supermarkets regularly. If I'm honest, we have seen some movement in terms of the banks, in terms of their high street branches, but we're a little frustrated in terms of any movement for online services. We have had quite a strong relationship with Metro Bank, who are moving to Cardiff. We've been working very closely with them in terms of their recruitment policies, for example, in order to make it possible for people to insist on the Welsh language service.

But I think the focus now with the banks is moving to that online service, and we will be holding another forum in a fortnight's time where senior representatives from the banks, some of them from London, will be coming to Cardiff to discuss with us exactly what the barriers are in terms of introducing Welsh language online services. If I'm honest, many of them say that cost is the barrier, so what we have done is we have been working with companies located in Wales who tell us it's possible for them to provide Welsh-language services at a lower cost than the HQ in London would suggest.

Ultimately, my personal view is that we are very eager to do everything we can to promote and to persuade, but clearly, ultimately you would reach a point where we'd have to say, well, we've been discussing with these people for three or four years, I am quite convinced that we have done as much as we can, but promotion and persuasion will not be a game changer in terms of the Welsh language. So all I could do at the end of that period would be to tell Government, 'Listen, we have done everything within our powers to change the situation, but ultimately they have refused', and if they refuse, then it's a political issue for you in terms of the standards in the private sector.

Exactly the same discussion is being held with the supermarkets. We've seen huge success with certain supermarkets—I have to be careful that I'm not seen on the BBC naming particular supermarkets—such as Aldi and Lidl, for example. We've had very good relationships with the Co-op, where, because of our efforts, the self-service tills are now entirely bilingual. You will know that there are some supermarkets—. I think the only failure so far in terms of self-service tills at the moment is Sainsbury's. So, Sainsbury's are on top of our list in terms of our efforts over the next six months.

So the promotion team is doing excellent work. We have a strong partnership with the WCVA, for example. We hold sessions with them in terms of staff training so that staff can be aware of what is required. There is also a charities forum that is to be created over the next two months. We are pursuing exactly the same patterns as with the banks, where every charity will have an opportunity to come to us to see exactly what we can provide in terms of support.

But there is good work ongoing. Yesterday, I heard from the NSPCC, for example, that they had been seeking to increase the number of bilingual staff within their call centre in Prestatyn, which has been successful, and that is because of the collaboration between my office and them. There's a very good relationship with Barnardo's, too, and what we're eager to do is to demonstrate to charities, some of them run from outside Wales, that there is good work ongoing, that there is good practice out there, and that we share that good practice. We don't say, 'Well, this is what I would do'; we say, 'This is what Barnardo's is doing, and this is what the NSPCC has been able to do with limited resources, and you could do exactly the same.'

11:00

Jest cyn symud ymlaen, yn fras, o ran safonau, ydych chi'n mynd i fod yn cychwyn ymchwiliadau newydd, er enghraifft, ar gyfer telegyfathrebu neu ydych chi ddim yn mynd i edrych i gychwyn hynny?

Just before moving on, in terms of standards, are you going to start new investigations, for example telecommunications, or are you not going to be looking to start those?

11:05

Beth rydym ni wedi bod—. Yn amlwg, unwaith y gwnaeth y Gweinidog ddatganiad ym mis Chwefror o ran dyfodol swyddfa'r comisiynydd, mi oedd yna hefyd ddatganiad ganddi yn dweud ei bod hi'n awyddus i symud ymlaen o ran rhai safonau. Fe wnes i ysgrifennu at y Gweinidog dros yr haf yn gofyn. Rydym ni wedi gwneud gwaith cychwynnol ar hyn o bryd o ran y cwmnïau dŵr, ac rydym ni wedi gwneud gwaith hefyd o ran rhai o'r utilities a'r rheoleiddwyr.

Mae yna dîm o fewn ein sefydliad ni sy'n gyfrifol am yr holl broses o ran gosod safonau. Beth wnaethon ni oedd, am gyfnod, cawson ni ddwy flynedd lle doedd yna ddim ymestyn o ran safonau. Mi oedd y tîm yna yn cael ei drosglwyddo, i bob pwrpas, i ddelio â chwynion am gyfnod. Maen nhw wedi bod nôl ers mis Ebrill/Mai yn delio efo heriau i'r safonau o ran y sector iechyd. Mae'r gwaith yna ar fin gorffen, felly i bob pwrpas, dwi angen gwybod beth yw bwriadau'r Llywodraeth o ran safonau. Mae rhyw fath o ddatganiad wedi cael ei wneud eu bod nhw'n awyddus i symud ymlaen yn eithaf sydyn, ond dydyn ni ddim yn deall ar hyn o bryd o ran pa sector maen nhw'n gwneud. 

Unwaith y byddwn ni'n gwybod yn union beth ydy eu bwriad nhw o ran sectorau, mi fydd yna le i ni ar ôl hynny i weld a oes capasiti, yn y lle cyntaf, i gynnal ymchwiliadau o ran sectorau eraill a gweld yn union beth yw'r bwriadau. Ond dwi'n awyddus iawn i weld bod yr ewyllys gwleidyddol yna yn y lle cyntaf i symud ymlaen heb ein bod ni—. Mae'r adnoddau yn brin iawn o fewn y swyddfa a dwi eisiau gwneud yn siŵr bod yr holl waith sy'n cael ei wneud yn waith sy'n mynd i ddwyn ffrwyth yn y pen draw. 

Well, clearly, once the Minister made the statement in February on the future of the commissioner's office, there was also a statement from her saying that she was eager to make progress in terms of certain standards. I wrote to the Minister over the summer. We have done some initial work on the water companies, and we've also done some work on some of the utilities and the regulators.

There is a team within my office that is responsible for the whole process in terms of putting standards in place. Now, we had two years, I believe, where there was no extension of standards, and that team was transferred, to all intents and purposes, to deal with complaints for a period of time. They have been back in place since April or May dealing with challenges to standards from the health sector. That work is about to be concluded. So to all intents and purposes, I need to know what the Government's intentions are in terms of standards. There has been some sort of statement that they are eager to make progress quite swiftly, but we don't know at the moment which sectors they'll be focusing on. 

Once we know exactly what their intentions are in terms of the sectors, then we, following that, will be able to identify capacity to carry out investigations into other sectors and to see exactly what the intentions are. But I'm very eager to see that the political will is there in the first instance to make progress. Because resources are very scarce within the office and I want to make sure that all of the work done is work that is going to bear fruit, ultimately. 

Felly, i grynhoi, dydych chi ddim eisiau cychwyn gwaith ar ymchwiliadau newydd os ydych chi'n meddwl bod y Llywodraeth yn eistedd arno fe, fel maen nhw wedi gyda'r rhai mwyaf diweddar sydd wedi cael eu gwneud gennych chi a'r tim, pan rydych chi wedi dod mewn yn flaenorol. 

So, to summarise, you don't want to start work on new investigations if you think the Government is sitting on it, as they have done with the most recent ones that have been conducted by you and the team, when you came in previously. 

Ie. Dwi'n meddwl mai'r cam cyntaf ydy, unwaith y byddwn ni'n gwybod pa sector maen nhw eisiau i ni symud at nesaf—nhw sy'n gosod y rheoliadau yn y pen draw—ein bod ni'n gweld—. Hwyrach y bydd yna angen i wneud neu ddiweddaru rhan o'r gwaith rydym ni wedi ei wneud eisoes ar y sector yna. Neu, os ydyn ni'n fodlon bod y gwaith yn gadarn a'i fod o ddim yn mynd i gael ei herio, fedrwn ni symud ymlaen ar y sectorau yna. Ond dwi'n meddwl bod angen inni weld yn union—. Mae gen i gyfarfod efo'r Gweinidog, cyfarfod chwarterol, ar 30 Medi, felly dwi'n gobeithio, hwyrach, y bydd gen i ddarlun cliriach ar ôl hynny. 

Yes. I think the first step is that, once we know which sector they want us to move on next—it's they who table the regulations, ultimately—we may need to update some of the work that we've already done on a particular sector. Or, if we're content that the work is robust and that it's not going to be challenged, then we can make progress in those sectors. But I do think that we need to know exactly what the Minister has in mind. I have a quarterly meeting with the Minister on 30 September, so I hope I'll have a clearer picture following that meeting. 

Grêt. Diolch yn fawr iawn am gadarnhau hynny. Symud ymlaen at rannu arfer da. Dŷn ni wedi cyffwrdd ar hyn yn barod. Delyth Jewell. 

Great. Thank you very much for confirming that. Moving on to sharing good practice. We have touched on this already. Delyth Jewell. 

Diolch. I bigo lan ar beth dŷch chi wedi ei ddweud yn barod, fel rydych chi wedi cyfeirio ato fe, mae swyddogaethau gan y comisiynydd nid dim ond am reoleiddio ond hefyd am hyrwyddo arfer da. Ydych chi'n gallu dweud wrthym ni beth ydych chi'n credu yw effaith rhannu arferion da cwmnïau, neu arferion arloesol, ynglŷn â'r effaith mae hynny'n cael ar y sector yna yn gyffredinol a chwmnïau eraill sydd yn yr un math o sector?

Thank you. Picking up on what you've said already, as you've referred to, the functions of the commissioner aren't just about regulation but also promotion and good practice. Can you tell us what impact sharing good practice of companies or innovative practice is having on that sector in general and also on other companies in the same sort of sector?

Dwi'n meddwl ei fod yn llawer iawn mwy grymus os ydyn ni'n medru dangos bod yna gwmnïau eraill o fewn yr un maes yn gweinyddu yn y Gymraeg neu yn darparu gwasanaethau cyflawn yn y Gymraeg nag unrhyw beth fyddwn ni'n ei ddweud fel sefydliad cyhoeddus, a dweud y gwir. Mae hynny wedi cael ei brofi. Cyn imi ddechrau, i fod yn onest, rhyw bythefnos cyn imi ddechrau, roedd fy rhagflaenydd i a'r cyfarwyddwyr wedi trefnu digwyddiad yn Llundain, oedd yn llwyddiannus iawn, lle roedd yna bobl yn dod ymlaen. Beth oeddem ni'n ei wneud oedd rhoi cyfle iddyn nhw ddweud beth yn union a sut yn union roedden nhw wedi ei wneud. Rydym ni wedi gweld yn y chwe mis ers hynny bod yna gynnydd wedi bod yn nifer yr elusenau, er enghraifft, sydd wedi gofyn i ni, 'Wel, beth yn union sydd ar gael? Pa gefnogaeth sydd ar gael? Pwy fuasech chi'n cyfeirio ni atyn nhw o ran dysgu mwy am arfer da?' Felly mae hynny. Ond nid ydy arfer da, lledaenu arfer da, ddim jest yn rhywbeth ar gyfer y sector breifat. Mae'n rhan annatod o'r gwaith hybu a hyrwyddo rydym ni'n ei wneud, a'r tim sy'n gyfrifol, ond hwyrach fedrith Gwenith gyfeirio—. Mae yna waith o ran—. Rydym ni'n awyddus i wneud mwy o waith o ran arfer da hefyd gyda'r sector cyhoeddus. 

I think it's far more powerful if we can demonstrate that there are other companies within the same sphere working through the medium of Welsh or providing full service through the medium of Welsh. I think that's more powerful than anything that we could say as a public body. I think that's been borne out. Before I started in post, around a fortnight before I started, my predecessor and the directors had arranged an event in London, which was very successful, where people came forward and what we were doing was to provide them with an opportunity to say what exactly they had done and how they had done it. We have seen in the six months since then that there has been an increase in the number of charities, for example, who have asked us, 'Well, what exactly is available? What support is available? Who would you refer us to in terms of learning more about good practice?' But good practice and rolling out good practice isn't only something for the private sector. It is an integral part of the promotion work that we do and the team responsible for that. Perhaps Gwenith could refer to some of that. There is some work—. We are eager to do more work on good practice within the public sector, too. 

11:10

Mae gennym ni'r fframwaith rheoleiddio. Rydym ni o'r cychwyn wedi bod yn awyddus i rannu arfer da wrth i'r drefn safonau ddod—rhwng un set o reoliadau a'r nesaf wrth i'r drefn esblygu, ond o fewn sectorau hefyd. Dim ond tair blynedd sydd ers i'r drefn ddod i mewn, ac i gyrff cyhoeddus allu datblygu o dan drefn newydd, mae wedi cymryd amser. Ond mae gennym ni'n sicr ddiddordeb yn y llwyddiant yna gymaint â sydd yn yr ymchwiliadau i bethau sydd wedi mynd o'i le, ac mae'r rheini weithiau hefyd yn arwain at arferion da.

Ond dwi'n meddwl mai'r allwedd yn eich cwestiwn chi yw'r trosglwyddo. Hanner y gwaith ydy dod o hyd i'r arferion, ac mae gennym ni fideos ac enghreifftiau ar ein gwefan o wahanol bethau, ond mae eu rhannu nhw yn dipyn o her. Mi wnaethom ni seminar ym mis Tachwedd y llynedd. Roedd yna 100 o sefydliadau wedi dod, a dwi'n ymwybodol ein bod ni wedi cael adborth wedyn lle roedd y sefydliadau a oedd yn cyflwyno wedi cael lot o bobl yn dod atyn nhw, neu yn gofyn iddyn nhw fynd i ddweud mwy am beth maen nhw'n ei wneud. Mi wnaethom ni hefyd weithdai y llynedd ar y safonau—llunio polisi ar ddefnydd mewnol o'r Gymraeg—a rydym ni'n mynd i wneud mwy eto mewn ychydig wythnosau, ddechrau mis Hydref, yn ymwneud â hybu a chynyddu defnydd, ac yn rhannu llwyddiannau.     

We have the regulatory framework. We have from the beginning been keen to share good practice as the standards regime came in—between one set of regulations and the next as the system evolved, but within sectors as well. There's only been three years since the regime came in, and for public bodies to be able to develop under a new system has taken time. But we certainly have an interest in that success, as much as we do in the investigations into things that have gone wrong, and those sometimes lead to good practice.

But I think that the key in your question is transferring. Half of the work is finding good practice, and we have videos and examples on our website of different aspects, but sharing them is quite a challenge. We had a seminar in November last year. A hundred organisations attended, and I'm aware that we've had feedback afterwards where the organisations that were giving presentations—people came to them and they were asked to provide more information. We also held workshops last year on the standards regarding the development of policy, and we are going to do more again in a few weeks, at the beginning of October, regarding promotion and increasing use, and sharing successes.    

Mae yna bump seminar wedi cael eu trefnu ar gyfer yr hydref ar gyfer y sector cyhoeddus, tri ohonyn nhw yng Nghaerdydd, un yn Llanrwst ac un yng Nghaerfyrddin er mwyn inni gael y spread daearyddol yna. Dwi'n meddwl hefyd ei bod hi'n bwysig ein bod ni ddim jest yn cyfeirio at y safon aur. Mae yna ddigon o enghreifftiau o gynghorau, hwyrach, sydd ddim wedi arfer darparu gwasanaethau yn y Gymraeg sydd yn gwneud gwaith aruthrol erbyn hyn, felly mae yna gyfle iddyn nhw hefyd ddangos sut maen nhw yn dechrau ar y siwrnai. 

There are five seminars arranged for October for the public sector, three in Cardiff, one in Llanrwst and one in Carmarthen, so that we can get that geographical spread. I think it's also important that we don't just refer to the gold standard. There are plenty of examples of councils who perhaps haven't been used to providing Welsh language services who are doing exceptional work now, so there is also an opportunity for them to show how they started that journey.

Diolch am hynny. Yn sôn am gyrff cyhoeddus, mae gan rai ohonyn nhw strategaethau pum mlynedd ynglŷn â beth maen nhw'n mynd i wneud ar gyfer y dyfodol, a'r siwrnai fyddan nhw arni hi. Ydych chi'n meddwl fod y strategaethau rydych chi'n ymwybodol ohonyn nhw yn gweithio yn unol, mewn ffordd, â nod Ddeddf llesiant cenedlaethau'r dyfodol? 

Thank you for that. Talking about public organisations, some of them have five-year strategies in terms of what they're going to do for the future, and the journey that they will be going on. Do you think that the strategies you're aware of are working within the aim of the well-being of future generations Act? 

Dwi'n mynd i ofyn i Gwenith ddelio efo'r sefyllfa yn hanesyddol, achos rydym ni yn y drydedd flwyddyn erbyn hyn, felly dwi'n meddwl bod yna rywbeth i'w ddweud o ran—. 

I'm going to ask Gwenith to deal with the historical situation, because we're into the third year now, so I think there may be some points to make in terms of—. 

Mae gofynion y safonau hybu yn wahanol i beth sy'n digwydd o dan yr amcanion llesiant. Mae disgwyl i awdurdodau lleol a'r parciau ddarparu strategaeth pum mlynedd yn dweud sut maen nhw'n mynd i gynnal neu cynyddu niferoedd—ac mae'n ddyletswydd—ac wedyn, ymhen pum mlynedd, i gyhoeddi asesiad o beth maen nhw wedi'i wneud a rhannu gwybodaeth ynglŷn â'r targed. 

O'r dechrau, gan bod gennym ni ddiddordeb mewn rheoleiddio i gael traw effaith, roedd hwn yn un o'r pethau cyntaf roeddem ni'n meddwl y dylem ni fod yn edrych arno fo. Felly, fe wnaethom ni arolwg ohonyn nhw i gyd, i ba raddau roedd y gwaith yn digwydd a beth oedd safon ac ansawdd y strategaethau, a chyhoeddi adroddiad o'r canlyniadau yn 2016-17. Dwi'n meddwl, adeg hynny, doeddem ni ddim yn teimlo bod yna ddigon o uchelgais na manylder yn llawer iawn ohonyn nhw. Ac mae yna nifer o gyrff gyhoeddus wedi ailddrafftio yn dilyn gweld ohonyn nhw'u hunain, drwy'r gwaith yna, eu bod nhw angen meddwl yn ddyfnach ynglŷn â beth oedd y strategaethau. Efallai bod rhai jest wedi eu gwneud nhw i gydymffurfio efo'r gofyniad ar dipyn o frys, a dydyn nhw ddim yn bethau y gall rhywun ei wneud yn gyflym iawn, dwi ddim yn teimlo.

Felly, fe gyhoeddon ni gyngor y llynedd yn rhannu’r pethau gorau allan o'r strategaethau, ac mae hwnnw wedi cael ei rannu. Ond rydym ni yn awyddus rŵan i graffu mwy ar beth sy'n digwydd yn ymarferol, felly. I ateb eich cwestiwn chi, dyna lle rydym ni i gyd wedi cyrraedd tair blynedd i mewn. Ac wrth gwrs, mae craffu ac edrych ar beth sy'n digwydd ym mhob awdurdod yn golygu tipyn mwy o adnoddau na gwneud arolwg, neu gwneud dogfen gyngor. Ac, felly, rydym ni'n cyrraedd rhyw groesffordd o ran hynny.

The requirements of the promotion standards are different to the well-being goals. Local authorities and national parks are expected to provide a five-year strategy outlining how they're going to increase numbers—and that is a duty—and then, within five years, they are required to provide an assessment of what they've done and to share information about targets. 

From the very outset, as we're interested in the impact of regulation, this was one of the first things that we thought we should be looking at. So, we carried out a survey of all of them, looking at the quality of the strategies, and we published a report of the results in 2016-17. We believed at that time there wasn't enough ambition or enough detail in much of this work. A number of public bodies have redrafted once they had seen themselves through that work that they needed to think more deeply about their strategies. Some of them had perhaps simply done them to comply with the requirements and they had been hurried. They're not things that can be hurried, in my view.

So, we published some guidance last year sharing best practice from the strategies, and that's been disseminated. But we are eager now to scrutinise what's happening on the ground. So, to respond to your question, that's where we've reached three years in. And of course, scrutiny and looking at what happens in each authority does require a lot more resource than carrying out a survey or providing an advice note. So, we are reaching some sort of crossroads in that regard.

11:15

Beth wnaethon ni ym mis Gorffennaf oedd gofyn am dystiolaeth gan y cyrff sydd yn ddarostyngedig i'r safon yma ynglŷn â beth yn union roedden nhw wedi'i wneud ers i'r strategaeth gael ei llunio. Rydym ni wedi gwneud dadansoddiad o beth sydd wedi digwydd ac, erbyn hyn, rydym ni wedi trefnu cyfarfod efo 14 allan o'r 25 i drafod yn union beth maen nhw wedi ei wneud. Os dwi'n onest, hwyrach mai'r pryder ydy bod yna lawer iawn o ymdrech wedi cael ei roi i mewn i ysgrifennu'r strategaeth, ond dyw e ddim yn glir i mi pa fath o fonitro sydd yna. Mae yna enghreifftiau da, ond mae yna enghreifftiau—.

Mae yna enghraifft dda o fewn un o'r cynghorau, er enghraifft, yn y de-ddwyrain. Wnaf i ddim eu henwi nhw achos dŷn ni ddim wedi cynnal y drafodaeth efo'r cynghorau eraill eto. Ond mae yna un cyngor lle mae yna grŵp wedi cael ei sefydlu o fewn y cyngor, lle maen nhw'n derbyn adroddiadau yn rheolaidd ynglŷn â beth yn union sydd wedi digwydd. Mae'r cyfrifoldeb ar gyfer gyrru'r agenda ymlaen ar y swyddogion ar lefel weithredol, ond mae yna drosolwg o fewn y cyngor ynglŷn â beth yn union sy'n digwydd. A dwi'n meddwl un peth buaswn i'n ei ddweud ydy: lle mae yna arweinyddiaeth gadarn ar lefel swyddogion ac arweinwyr cyngor, dwi'n meddwl bod yna dipyn o hyder ynglŷn â pha mor effeithiol ydy'r strategaethau yma, ond nid yw hynny'n gyson.

Ac mae yna enghreiffttiau—. Mae yna gyngor arall lle mae'r dadansoddiad, er enghraifft, yn dweud bod y strategaeth yn eithaf clir yn dweud nad cyfrifoldeb y cyngor yn unig ydy ei wneud o, ei fod o'n gyfrifoldeb ar gyfer y partneriaid oll, sydd yn ddigon teg, ond pan rydym ni wedi gofyn iddyn nhw, 'Wel, pa gyfarfodydd felly sydd wedi cael eu cynnal ymysg y partneriaid?' yr hyn sy'n cael ei ddweud wrthym ni yw bod y fforwm iaith heb gyfarfod ers rhyw 18 mis. Felly, dyna beth sydd yn rhaid mynd ar ei ôl, a dweud y gwir. 

What we did in July was ask for evidence from the organisations that are subject to this standard regarding what exactly they had done since the strategy was designed. We have undertaken analysis of what's happened and, by now, we've arranged a meeting with 14 out of the 25, to discuss exactly what they've done. If I'm honest, perhaps the concern is that there has been quite a lot of effort put into writing the strategy, but it's not clear to me what sort of monitoring there is. There are good examples, but there are examples—.

There is a good example within one of the councils, for example, in the south-east. I won't name them because we haven't had the discussion with the other councils yet. But one council has established a group within the council, where they receive regular reports on exactly what's happened. The responsibility for driving the agenda forward is on officials at an executive level, but there is an overview within the council with regard to what exactly is happening. And I think one thing that I would say is: where there is strong leadership on an official level and from council leaders, I think that there is quite a lot of confidence regarding how effective these strategies area, but that isn't consistent.

And there are examples—. There is another council where the analysis, for example, shows that the strategy is quite clear that it's not the responsibility of the council alone, it's the responsibility of all partners, which is fair enough, but when we've asked them 'What meetings therefore have been held amongst the partners?' we're told that the language forum hasn't met for about 18 months. So, that's what we have to look at. 

Symud ymlaen nawr at gwynion. John Griffiths. 

Moving on to complaints. John Griffiths. 

In terms of complaints, what would you say they tell us about the freedom to use Welsh in Wales today?

Wel, mae yna broses o fewn y Mesur sydd yn eithaf cadarn. Mae o'n rhoi'r hawl i unigolion i ddod atom ni ac i ddweud eu bod nhw yn credu bod yna dor safon wedi digwydd. Ac rydym ni yn eithaf cadarn o ran ein prosesau. Dwi'n eithaf hyderus ein bod ni'n edrych ar hyn o safbwynt y dinesydd. Ond, yn amlwg, rydym ni wedi gorfod—. Rydym ni'n dal yn gweithredu'r polisi gorfodi yn union yr un ffordd, ond rydym ni wedi newid rhai o'n prosesau mewnol ni yn sgil gwaith a wnaethom ni. Dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n briodol bod unrhyw gorff yn edrych ar sut y mae cwynion yn cael eu delio â nhw, ac mae'r gwaith yna'n cael ei wneud yn flynyddol gan ein harchwilwyr mewnol ni. Maen nhw'n cymryd sampl i wneud yn siŵr ein bod ni'n delio â chwynion yn effeithiol ac yn amserol. Ond dwi'n meddwl, o achos yr holl sylw sydd wedi cael ei roi o ran y ffordd rydym ni'n ymdrin â chwynion, hwyrach ei bod hi'n briodol imi ofyn eto i Gwenith i roi rhyw fath o esboniad ynglŷn â beth sydd wedi digwydd yn ystod y ddwy neu dair blynedd olaf ers i'r safonau ddod i rym.

Well, there is a process within the Measure that is quite robust. It provides the right for an individual to approach us and to tell us that they believe that a standard has not been adhered to. And we are quite robust in terms of our processes. I am confident that we look at this from the citizen's perspective. But, clearly, we have to—. We are still operating the enforcement policy in exactly the same way, but we have changed some of our internal processes in light of work that we carried out. I think it is appropriate that any body should look at how complaints are dealt with, and that work is done on an annual basis by our internal auditors. They take a sample to ensure that we deal with complaints in an effective and efficient manner, and in a timely manner. But I do think, because of all the coverage there has been in terms of how we deal with complaints, perhaps it's appropriate for me to ask Gwenith, once again, to give some sort of explanation as to what's happened over the past two or three years since standards were introduced.  

Iawn, diolch yn fawr. Mae'r broses gorfodi yn wahanol iawn i beth oedd yn bodoli o dan y drefn cynlluniau iaith, ac mae hwnna wedi cael effaith. Rydym ni wedi bod yn canolbwyntio ar drio gorfodi'n effeithiol. Mi oedd yna gynnydd yn y cwynion a'r rhai oedd yn dymuno i ni edrych i mewn i gwynion pan ddaeth y drefn i mewn o'r newydd, ac felly rydym ni wedi cwestiynu, ar hyd y broses, a ydyn ni'n gwneud y gwaith yma'n effeithiol a pha draweffaith mae'r gorfodi'n ei gael. Yn sicr, mae'r archwilio mewnol yn bwysig er mwyn i ni wneud yn siŵr ein bod ni'n gweithredu'r Mesur yn briodol hefyd.

Dwi'n meddwl, ar ôl dwy flynedd o weithredu, roeddem ni angen cymryd stoc o sut roeddem ni'n gweithredu a beth oeddem ni wedi'i ddysgu o gael profiad. Achos mae'n un peth i osod polisi gorfodi a dilyn y prosesau o achos i achos, ond rydych chi angen cymryd cam yn ôl. Felly, mi wnaethom ni hynny yn rhannol oherwydd argymhellion archwilio mewnol a'n trefniadau ymarferol a'n hawydd ni i gau achosion yn gynt a bod gennym ni ein targedau ar gyfer delio'n gyflym efo'r ymchwiliadau, ond hefyd oherwydd ein bod ni eisiau gweld a oedd yna bethau, gyda phrofiad, y buasem ni'n gallu gwneud yn wahanol i fod yn fwy effeithiol.

Ac felly, mi wnaethom ni adolygiad. Mi gawsom ni gyngor cyfreithiol. Mi wnaeth y Gweinidog hefyd ysgrifennu atom ni'n cynnig ei barn, ac roedd yn rhaid, ymysg y broses, rhoi sylw dyladwy i'r llythyr, ac mi wnaethom ni, a dod i fyny efo 10 argymhelliad inni ein hunain ynglŷn â rhai pethau y buasem ni'n gallu eu newid. Ac mae'r comisiynydd, dwi'n meddwl, yn parhau rŵan efo'r drefn newydd i allu gorfodi yn defnyddio disgresiwn, ond efallai ein bod ni'n defnyddio mwy achos ein bod ni wedi cryfhau'r broses mesur a phwyso pan mae cwynion yn dod i mewn—

Thank you. Well, the enforcement process is very different to what existed under the language schemes system, and that has had an impact. And we've been concentrating on trying to enforce effectively. There was an increase in the number of complaints and those who wanted us to look into complaints when the new system came in, and, therefore, we have questioned, during the process, whether we're doing this work effectively and what impact the enforcement has been having. Certainly, the internal auditing is important in terms of ensuring that we're implementing the Measure correctly. 

I think, after two years of implementation, we needed to take stock of how we were operating and what we'd learnt from experience. Because it's one thing to set an enforcement policy and follow the processes from case to case, but you need to take a step back. So, we did that partially because of the recommendations of the internal auditing process and our practical arrangements and our desire to close cases quicker and that we have targets for dealing with investigations quickly, but also because we wanted to look at whether there were things that, with experience, we could do differently to be more effective.

And so, we conducted a review. We had legal advice and the Minister also wrote to us offering her views, and in the process we had to give due regard to the letter that we'd received, and we did, and we came up with 10 recommendations ourselves regarding some things that we could change. And the commissioner, I think, is continuing with the new system of being able to enforce by using discretion, and perhaps we use more because we have strengthened the process of looking at and analysing the complaints when they come in—

11:20

Pryd oedd hwnnw wedi cychwyn—y system newydd yn fewnol?

When did that start then—the new internal system?

1 Ebrill. 

1 April.

Roedd y papur yn y tîm rheoli ar ddechrau mis Mawrth.

The paper for our management team was at the beginning of March.

A ydy'r broses honno'n gyhoeddus o gwbl?

And is that process public at all?

Dydy'r polisi gorfodi ddim wedi newid dim. Yr unig beth rydym ni wedi'i wneud ydy edrych, er enghraifft, ar ddyfarniadau tribiwnlys. A jest i roi un enghraifft ichi: roedd un dyfarniad wedi canfod o blaid peidio ag ymchwilio i gŵyn achos bod yna dystiolaeth glir bod perfformiad y corff wedi gwella.

Wrth inni fonitro a chasglu data, rydym ni'n gallu gweld bod yna ddim problem systemig mewn sefydliad. A hefyd mae gennym ni dystiolaeth weithiau fod y peth wedi'i ddatrys yn syth. Felly, mae modd defnyddio disgresiwn mewn sefyllfaoedd tebyg i hynna i weld a oes gwerth treulio chwe mis yn edrych mewn i fater bychan sydd wedi'i ddatrys yn syth, lle mae corff yn perfformio'n dda beth bynnag, i jest peidio ag ymchwilio a rhoi ein hadnoddau i ymchwilio i bethau lle mae yna broblemau mwy.

Felly, mae achwynwyr yn dal yn bendant â'r hawl i gwyno a phe baen nhw ddim yn fodlon, i fynd i'r tribiwnlys, ac mae'r hawliau yna'n sicr o hyd, ond ein bod ni'n trio rhoi mwy o ymdrech i bwyso a mesur pryd rydym ni yn ymchwilio a phryd rydym ni ddim, o gofio efallai ein bod ni wedi bod yn ymchwilio i dros 70 y cant o'r cwynion a oedd yn cyrraedd. Roedd yn rhaid i ni, wrth i fwy o gyrff ddod o dan safonau, meddwl sut, heb fod ein hadnoddau ni'n cynyddu, yr oeddem ni'n gallu rhoi sylw i'r pethau mwyaf difrifol neu o fwyaf o gonsýrn.

Felly, dyna yw'r broses a dyw'r polisi gorfodi yna a'n parch ni at yr hawl i gwyno ddim wedi newid. Un awgrym oedd cael datrysiad buan neu gyfeirio pobl yn lleol, ond mae'r ystadegau sydd gennym ni yn dangos, o'r arolwg gwnaethom ni—ac mae yn ein hadroddiad sicrwydd—mai 13 y cant sy'n teimlo eu bod nhw'n gwybod sut i gwyno'n lleol, ond dim ond hanner y sefydliadau sydd wedi cydymffurfio efo'r safonau i gael gweithdrefn yn ei lle, er bod hynny'n uwch na beth oedd o flwyddyn yn ôl, lle'r oedd yn 31 y cant neu rywbeth felly. Mae 39 y cant o sefydliadau yn eu hadroddiadau blynyddol wedi dweud eu bod nhw ddim wedi cael dim un cwyn. Felly, ein barn ni yw bod angen i'r sefydliadau eu hunain wella'u trefniadau lleol i dderbyn a delio efo cwynion, a bod gan bobl yr hyder eu bod nhw'n gallu a bod rhywun yn cymryd eu cwynion nhw o ddifrif. Ond dydym ni ddim mewn sefyllfa i gael rhyw ddatrysiad felly. Mae'n rhaid i'r comisiynydd ystyried pob cwyn ddilys.

The enforcement policy hasn't changed at all. All we've done is look, for example, at tribunal determinations. And just to give you one example: there was one that had found in favour of not investigating a complaint because there was clear evidence that the performance of the body had improved.

As we monitor and collect data, we can see that there is no systemic problem within an organisation. And also we have evidence sometimes that the issue has been solved immediately. So, there is a way of using discretion in similar situations to see whether there is value in spending six months investigating a small issue that has been solved immediately, where an organisation is performing well anyway, to not investigating and putting our resources into investigating things where there are bigger problems. 

So, complainants certainly still have the right to complain and if they're not happy, they can go to a tribunal, and those rights are assured, but we're trying to put more effort into deciding when we investigate and when we don't, given that perhaps we've been investigating over 70 per cent of the complaints that reached us. As more and more bodies were coming under these standards, we had to think about how, without our resources increasing, we could give attention to the most serious issues or issues that were of most concern.

So, that is the process and that enforcement policy and our respect for the right to complain hasn't changed. One suggestion was to have a quick resolution or to refer people at a local level, but the statistics that we have show, from a survey that we conducted—and it's in our assurance report—that 13 per cent know how to complain locally, but only half of the organisations that have complied with the standard have a process in place, even though that's higher than what it was a year ago, where it was 31 per cent or something like that. Thirty-nine per cent of organisations in their annual reports say that they haven't received any complaints. So, our view is that there is a need for the organisations themselves to improve local arrangements to receive and deal with complaints, so that people have the confidence that they can and that somebody will take their complaint seriously. But we're not in a situation to have such a solution. The commissioner has to consider every valid complaint.

Just to ask really: in terms of complaints made and investigations carried out and completed, do you see any significant differences between the different parts of Wales—the different ares of Wales—in terms of those complaints and what you've found when you investigated?

Dwi'n meddwl bod yna batrwm wedi dangos—nid eleni efallai, ond pan rydym ni wedi edrych ar gwynion yn y gorffennol—fod yna fwy o gwynion lleol mewn rhai sefydliadau lle efallai bod yna draddodiad cryfach o ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg dros gyfnod o ddegawdau. Felly, mae llai o gwynion uniongyrchol at sefydliad lle mae'r defnydd o'r Gymraeg yn rhywbeth newydd. Efallai bod yna rai ardaloedd yn derbyn mwy o gwynion, nid efallai oherwydd problem sefydliadol ond oherwydd bod yna fwy o ddiddordeb mewn arfer hawliau mewn rhai ardaloedd. A bosib bod sefydliadau fel y Llywodraeth a'r brif ddinas wedi cael mwy o gwynion pan oedd y drefn yn newydd. Dwi ddim yn gwybod beth ydy'r rhesymau dros hynny. Fe allaf i ddeall efallai'r Llywodraeth, eu bod nhw’n sefydliad o dan y safonau a oedd gan rhai achwynwyr awydd i arfer eu hawliau, ond does yna ddim patrymau, dwi ddim yn credu, mwy na hynny.

I do think that there's been a pattern that's emerged—not this year perhaps, but when we have looked at complaints in the past—that there are more local complaints in some organisations where perhaps there is a stronger tradition of using the Welsh language over a period of decades. So, fewer complaints are made directly to an organisation where the use of the Welsh language is perhaps newer. Perhaps there are some areas where more complaints are received, not perhaps because of an institutional problem, but because there is a greater interest in exercising rights in certain areas. It's possible that certain bodies such as the Government and our capital city have received more complaints when the system was new. I don't know what the reasons for that would be. I can understand the Government perhaps, that they are an organisation captured under the standards and some complainants wanted to exercise their rights, but there are no distinctive patterns, I don't think, beyond that.

11:25

Dwi'n eithaf sicr fy marn fod y drefn a chafodd ei mabwysiadu ym mis Mawrth yn dal yn fy ngalluogi i i ymarfer disgresiwn. Lle dwi'n credu bod yna dor safon sydd yn effeithio ar hawl unigolyn, mi fyddwn i'n awyddus iawn i ymchwilio. Ond, mae'n rhaid i mi bwyso a mesur i weld yn union beth sy'n mynd i gael ei gyflawni drwy ymchwiliad llawn. Mi oedd yna enghreifftiau, er enghraifft, lle roedd ymchwiliad yn cael ei ddechrau—ac unwaith mae ymchwiliad yn cael ei ddechrau, mae'n rhaid i ni ddilyn y broses drwyddo i'r diwedd—ond os buaswn i wedi mynnu bod y sefydliad yn cynnig tystiolaeth llawn i ni yn y cychwyn, hwyrach y buasai'r penderfyniad i ymchwilio yn y gorffennol ddim wedi cael ei gymryd.

Dwi'n meddwl hefyd fod yna le i ni wella o ran y ffordd rydym ni wedi cyflwyno newidiadau eraill o ran monitro cynlluniau gweithredu, achos mi oedd yna dystiolaeth hefyd fod yna rai ardaloedd lle roedd pobl yn gorfod cwyno dro ar ôl tro ynglŷn â'r un tor safon. Y cwbl mae hynny'n gwneud, trwy gynnal ymchwiliad i'r un mater dro ar ôl tro, ydy mae hynny’n gwastraffu adnoddau i ni, mae'n gwastraffu adnoddau i'r sefydliad. Hwyrach os buaswn ni wedi bod yn fwy cadarn yn y lle cyntaf ynglŷn â derbyn tystiolaeth ynglŷn ag yn union beth oedd y sefydliad yna wedi gwneud i gywiro'r tor safon yn y lle cyntaf, buasai yna ddim rhaid i'r person orfod cwyno eto.

Dwi'n meddwl beth mae'r rhan fwyaf o bobl eisiau'i weld ydy datrysiad, ac maen nhw eisiau datrysiad amserol. Mi oedd aros yn ein hunfan, efo mwy a mwy o gyrff yn dod yn ddarostyngedig i'r safonau—y cwbl oedd yn mynd i ddigwydd, achos doedd yna ddim lle i ni gynyddu nifer y swyddogion oedd yn ymdrin â chwynion, y cwbl fyddai hynny wedi gwneud oedd creu sefyllfa lle, yn hytrach na aros naw mis am ryw benderfyniad gennym ni, hwyrach y buasai wedi mynd yn 18 mis. Dwi ddim yn credu y byddai hynny o fudd i unrhyw siaradwr na dysgwr Cymraeg.

I'm quite certain in my opinion that the system that was adopted in March still enables me to exercise discretion. Where I think there is a breach of a standard that affects a person's rights, I would be very keen to investigate. But, we have to look and balance to see what's going to be achieved by a full investigation. There were examples where an investigation would start—and once an investigation starts, we have to follow the process through to the end—but if I had insisted on an organisation providing all the evidence at the beginning, perhaps the decision to investigate in the past wouldn't have been taken.

I think also there is room for us to improve the way we have introduced other changes in terms of monitoring action schemes, because there was evidence also that there were some areas where people had to complain time and time again about the same breach of a standard. All that is doing, by conducting an investigation into the same issue time and time again, is wasting resources for us and wasting the resources of the organisation. Perhaps if we had been more robust in the first place on receiving evidence about exactly what the organisation had done to correct the breach in the first place, there would be no need for the person to complain again.

I think what the majority of people want is a solution, and they want a timely resolution. Standing still, with more and more organisations becoming subject to the standards—all that was going to happen, because there was no room for us to increase the number of officials dealing with complaints, all that would have done was create a situation where, rather than waiting nine months for a decision from us, it would have gone to 18 months. I don't think that would be beneficial to any speaker or Welsh learner.

Mae'n rhaid i ni symud ymlaen, achos mae amser yn fyr, ond hoffwn i ddweud ar gyfer y record bod yna gryn diddordeb wedi bod yn hwn. Felly, os oes yna ryw fath o ddogfen neu ryw fath o esboniad sy'n gallu cael ei roi i ni—. Achos mae defnyddio disgresiwn, i fi, yn rhyw fath o newid. Efallai ei fod e'n nuanced i chi achos dŷch chi'n gweithio'n fewnol. Ond, o'r tu allan, mae pobl yn gweld bod pethau'n newid wedyn o ran y niferoedd ac yn y blaen. Dŷn ni ddim yn anghytuno o reidrwydd, achos dŷn ni fel pwyllgor wedi cynnig bod angen i ni edrych ar hyn mewn ffordd mwy holistaidd a realistig, ond dwi'n credu bod pobl eisiau adnabod yn iawn beth sy'n digwydd. Felly, os byddech chi'n gallu gwneud hynny, byddai hynny o help mawr i ni.

We have to make progress, because time is against us, but I would like to say for the record that there has been a some interest in this. So, if you do have some sort of document or explanation that could be passed to us, it would be useful. Because using discretion, for me, is a change. Perhaps it's nuanced for you because you work internally with this every day. But, from the outside, people see that things do change in terms of numbers and so on and so forth. We don't necessarily disagree, because we as a committee have proposed ourselves that we need to look at this in a more holistic and realistic manner, but I do think people want to know exactly what is happening. So, if you could provide us with that, that would be of huge assistance to us.

Dwi'n ddigon parod i wneud. Digon parod. 

I'm perfectly happy to do that. 

Ocê, grêt. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Symud ymlaen at David Melding nawr. 

Thank you. We'll move on to David Melding. 

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. I'd like to turn to financial accountability. Your predecessor had a very clear policy, and that was to cope with the financial stresses caused by a flat-lining budget in a period of austerity by utilising reserves—which were reasonably high, so that should be put on record—and that was to stabilise the staffing position and permit a level, at least, of investment. The consequence of that planned approach is to have reduced the reserve from a little over £700,000 to £438,000 now, and by March 2020 down to something like £230,000, I think, because you do have some key investments you want to fund. So, by the time we get to roughly £230,000, we're below a sort of reasonable reserve, which I think your predecessor set at £250,000, so that's 5 per cent operational cost, plus £100,000 in case there were particular challenges in terms of legal advice and legal proceedings that needed to be done. So, presumably, you're going to have to come up with a different policy now, because you cannot use reserves to avoid, perhaps, more difficult questions, assuming that we continue to have flatline budgets. So, what is your policy to manage this risk and this new situation?

11:30

Doedd yna ddim nodyn wedi'i adael gan Meri Huws yn dweud bod yr arian i gyd wedi mynd—[Chwerthin.]—ond, i fod o ddifri, mae'r sefyllfa, hwyrach, yn fwy difrifol na hyd yn oed hynny, achos mae yna gronfa wrth gefn, ond mae yna gronfa waelodol hefyd, sydd, hwyrach, yn fwy pwysig i ni, achos mae'r ffigur yna'n dangos bod, unwaith dŷn ni wedi cymryd y pethau y bydd yn rhaid eu talu, fel rhent a phob peth o fewn y cyfnod, y gronfa waelodol i lawr i ryw £287,000 yn barod eleni.

Felly, yn amlwg, mae angen inni wneud rhywbeth. Dŷn ni wedi gwneud cais am arian cyfalaf i wella ein systemau technoleg gwybodaeth. Bydd hynny yn rhyddhau rhywfaint—dim llawer, ond bydd yn rhyddhau rhywfaint o ran cytundebau sydd yn eithaf costus. Does dim buddsoddiad wedi bod o fewn technoleg gwybodaeth am ryw saith neu wyth mlynedd, felly mae'n sefyllfa eithaf difrifol. Ond beth dŷn ni wedi ei wneud ydy: mae yna amcangyfrifon sydd wedi cael eu paratoi a fydd yn tanlinellu i'r Llywodraeth beth yn union fydd y sefyllfa.

Fy mhrif bryder i ar hyn o bryd ydy: dŷn ni newydd, wythnos diwethaf, gytuno efo'r undebau, o ran y staff, i ariannu codiad cyflog y gwasanaeth sifil. Dŷn ni'n dilyn yr un amodau tâl â'r gwasanaeth sifil. Ond setliad un flwyddyn ydy hynny, felly mae yna gwestiwn ynglŷn â setliad y flwyddyn nesa. Mae yna hefyd bryder ynglŷn â beth yn union fydd y sefyllfa o ran y cynnydd yn y pensiwn. Mae'r cyfraniadau o'n rhan ni ar gyfer pensiynau wedi cynyddu o 21 y cant i 27 y cant. Felly, mae yna gostau ychwanegol dŷn ni'n eu rhagweld o ryw £180,000 ar hyn o bryd sydd ddim wedi cael eu hariannu. Felly, y pwynt cyntaf ydy gofyn i'r Llywodraeth beth yn union ydy eu bwriadau nhw ynglŷn â'r codiad cyflog a hefyd y pensiynau, er mwyn i ni gynllunio'n ariannol ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf.

Dŷn ni ar hyn o bryd yn cadw swyddi'n wag. Mae yna hawl inni gyflogi 47 o staff. Ar hyn o bryd, dŷn ni'n cyflogi tua 43, felly mae yna bedair swydd wag ar hyn o bryd. Mae'r rheini wedi bod yn wag ers cyfnod. Yn ystod y mis diwethaf, mae trosiant naturiol ymysg y staff wedi creu sefyllfa lle mae yna ddwy swydd ran-amser ychwanegol yn wag. Dŷn ni wedi cymryd y penderfyniad, fel tîm rheoli, y byddai'n afrealistig inni lenwi'r swyddi yna, ac mae hynny'n creu pwysau ychwanegol—pwysau gwaith ychwanegol—ar aelodau o staff.

Felly, mae yna gwestiwn, os dŷn ni ddim yn cael arian ychwanegol o'r £180,000, yn amlwg mae'n debyg y bydd yna ostyngiad pellach o ran y niferoedd sydd yn cael eu cyflogi. Bydd hynny'n effeithio ar faint o waith hybu a hyrwyddo y medrwn ni ei wneud, ond hefyd mi fydd o'n effeithio ar yr amserlen o ran delio efo cwynion, achos bydd yna lai o swyddogion i ddelio efo'r gwaith hynny. Ond dyna beth fydd y sefyllfa. Os dŷn ni yn cael y £180,000, be fyddwn ni'n gwneud ydy recriwtio i lenwi'r swyddi sydd yn wag ar hyn o bryd, ond y cwbl y bydd hynny'n gwneud ydy ein galluogi ni i fynd yn ôl i fyny i 43.

Yr unig beth arall dŷn ni'n gwneud ydy—. Mi fyddwch chi'n ymwybodol bod yna drafodaeth fyw wedi bod o ran cyfrifoldebau hybu a hyrwyddo ers rhai blynyddoedd rhwng y Llywodraeth a ninnau. Dŷn ni wedi cwblhau memorandwm efo'r Llywodraeth ym mis Awst o ran beth yn union ydy rhaniad y cyfrifoldebau yna. Mi fydd yna hefyd gais yn cael ei roi i'r Llywodraeth. Os ydyn nhw'n awyddus i ni wneud gwaith ar brosiectau arbennig, fydd ddim yn ychwanegu at ein cyllideb graidd ni, ond fydd yn arian prosiectau, dŷn ni'n awyddus i wneud gwaith. Bydd hynny mewn meysydd fel yr arfer da dŷn ni wedi bod yn cyfeirio ato fo, ond hefyd yn edrych ar waith ar gynyddu defnydd—gwaith ymchwil ar gynyddu defnydd; hefyd, os dwi'n onest, gwaith megis y broblem o ran recriwtio athrawon—pethau ymarferol dŷn ni'n gweld sydd yn bwysig o ran gwireddu'n breuddwydion ni oll o ran Cymraeg 2050. Ond mi fydd yna gais yn cael ei roi i'r Llywodraeth. Mater i'r Llywodraeth ar ôl hynny ydy os ydyn nhw'n awyddus i ni wneud rhan o'r gwaith yna.

Meri Huws hadn't left a note to say that all the money had gone—[Laughter.]—but, in all seriousness, the situation is, perhaps, more serious than that, because there is a reserves fund but there is a baseline fund as well, which is more important to us, because that figure shows that once we have taken the things that we have to pay into account, such as rent within that period, the baseline fund is down to about £287,000 already this year.

So, clearly, there is a need for us to do something. We have made a request for capital funding to improve our information technology systems. That would free up some money—not much, but it would free up some money in terms of contracts that are quite costly. There hasn't been investment in IT for about seven or eight years, therefore it is quite a serious situation. But what we have done: there are estimates that have been prepared that will emphasise to the Government what exactly the situation is.

My main concern, currently, is that we have just last week agreed with the unions, in terms of the staff, to fund a salary increase. We're following the same salary as the civil service. But that is only a one-year settlement, so there's a question about next year's settlement. Also, there are concerns about what our situation will be regarding the increase in pension contributions. On our part, contributions for pensions have increased from 21 per cent to 27 per cent. So, there are additional costs that we foresee of about £180,000 at the moment that aren't funded. So, the first point is to ask the Government what exactly their intentions are with regard to the pay increase and the pensions, so that we can plan on a financial level for next year.

Currently, we have vacant posts. We can employ 47 members of staff. Currently, we're employing about 43, so there are four vacant posts at the moment. They have been vacant for a while. During the last month, there has been a natural turnover amongst staff, and that has created a situation where there are two additional part-time posts that are vacant. We have taken the decision, as a management team, that it would be unrealistic to fill those posts, and that creates additional pressure—additional work pressure—on staff members.

So, there is a question that if we don't have additional funding for the £180,000, clearly there will be a further reduction in terms of the numbers that are employed. That will have an impact on how much promotion work we'll be able to do, but it will also affect the timetable in terms of dealing with complaints, because there will be fewer officials to deal with that work. But that is what the situation will be. If we do receive the £180,000, what we will do is recruit to fill those vacant posts currently, but all that will do will enable us to go back up to 43.

The only other thing we're doing—. You will be aware that there has been a very lively discussion about the promotion responsibilities for a few years between the Government and us. We have completed a memorandum with the Government in August in terms of what the sharing of those responsibilities are. There will also be a request to the Government that if they are keen for us to undertake work on specific projects that will not add to our core budget but will be project money, we are keen to do work in areas such as the good practice that we've been referring to, but also looking at work on increase of usage—research on increasing usage; also, if I'm honest, work such as the problem in terms of recruiting teachers—practical issues that we see are important in terms of realising all our dreams about Cymraeg 2050. But there will be a request to the Government. It will be a matter for the Government afterwards if they're keen for us to do part of that work.

11:35

Well, thank you for that very illuminating answer, if I may say so. Just so I completely grasp it and so that when we scrutinise the Minister and perhaps decide to bring some influence to bear, the latter bit of one-off or special work at the minute is in the programme costs, I think I would be right in saying that, which has declined in this period of flatlining budgets from roughly £0.5 million to, I think, you now project £77,000, so it's a massive reduction. And, as you've indicated, it means one-off inquiries and research. So, presumably, at the moment, that's not being done elsewhere and it's best—many people would argue—that you commission and complete it and the independence of that requires—. It's an important part of your core function, I think you could argue. But if you have to manage a very challenging financial situation, that programme will either be further reduced or just—

—go along that sort of—. And the other thing you have to do is via staffing costs—you're saying down to 43. If you were to completely eliminate the deficit, which is now running routinely at £60,000 to £65,000, are we down to 40, or even lower than that? And then that gets, obviously, demonstrated in the capacity you have for your general—

Mae gen i gyfrifoldebau fel swyddog cyfrifyddu. Mae yna bolisi sydd wedi cael ei gytuno o fewn y sefydliad o ran cronfa wrth gefn. Mae'r gronfa wrth gefn i fod yn £250,000. Mae hynny'n seiliedig ar 5 y cant o'n cyllideb ni, ond hefyd mae yna bolisi mewnol ein bod ni'n diogelu £100,000 y flwyddyn ar gyfer costau cyfreithiol anarferol. Mae yna drafodaeth wedi bod efo'r Llywodraeth ynglŷn â phriodoldeb y ffigwr yna, ond mae'n sefyllfa ni'n wahanol iawn i rai sefydliadau eraill achos ein bod ni'n rheoleiddio'r Llywodraeth. Felly, mae'n rhaid i mi gadw £100,000 ar gyfer costau cyfreithiol achos byddai o ddim yn briodol i mi fynd i lawr i £150,000 ac yn awyddus i gamau cyfreithiol yn erbyn y Llywodraeth a gorfod mynd at y Llywodraeth i ofyn am £100,000 er mwyn talu am fargyfreithwyr.

Felly, dwi'n credu bod y polisi cronfa wrth gefn yn un teg a chadarn ond, yn amlwg, mae yna bryder yma ynglŷn â—. Dwi'n meddwl ei fod o wedi bod yn ddigon realistig ac yn deg i'n rhagflaenydd i a chyfarwyddwyr weithredu o ran gwario dros y gyllideb ac yn ariannu hynny o'r gronfa wrth gefn, ond erbyn hyn, wrth gwrs, dŷn ni wedi cyrraedd y pwynt lle does yna ddim arian o fewn y gronfa wrth gefn. Beth dwi'n awyddus i'w wneud ydy bod yn deg efo fy staff i. Mae gennym ni, dwi'n meddwl, hanes, fel corff, lle dŷn ni wedi bod yn deg efo'n staff. Dŷn ni'n talu cyflog byw i bawb a dŷn ni wedi cyflogi prentisiaid a phethau er mwyn rhoi'r cyfle i bobl ifanc hyfforddi a dod i mewn i'r sector cyhoeddus. Ond yn amlwg, mae'n costau staff ni rhyw 75/76 y cant o'r holl arian. Felly, dŷch chi wedi cydnabod bod yr arian prosiectau wedi diflannu, i bob pwrpas, felly yr unig adnodd sydd ar ôl ydy'r gweithwyr.

I have responsibilities as accounting officer. There is a policy agreed within the organisation in terms of the reserve. The reserve is supposed to be £250,000. That is based on 5 per cent of our budget, but there is also an internal policy that we safeguard £100,000 per annum for exceptional legal costs. There has been some discussion with the Government as to the appropriateness of that figure, but our situation is very different to some other organisations because we regulate the Government. So, I do have to retain £100,000 for legal costs because it would not be appropriate for me to go down to £150,000 and be eager to take legal steps against the Government and having to approach the Government for that £100,000 in order to pay for barristers.

So, I believe that the reserves policy is a fair and robust policy, but, clearly, there is some concern here about—. I think it's realistic and fair for my predecessor and directors to have operated in overspending and funding that from reserves, but now, of course, we have reached the point where there is no money in the reserves available. What I'm eager to do is to treat my staff fairly. We have a history, as an organisation, where we have treated our staff fairly. We pay a living wage to all our staff and we have employed apprentices and such things in order to provide opportunities for young people to train and to come into the public sector. But, clearly, our staffing costs are some 75 or 76 per cent of all our funding. So, you have recognised that the project funds have disappeared, to all intents and purposes, so the only resource available is the workforce.

11:40

You could, in times of great stress, just about argue that project costs are not core. You know, it means we don't advance or innovate very much, perhaps, but they're outside the core. You've gone down from 48, which is your establishment, to 43, and you could well be going below 40. At what point is it no longer viable for you to execute your full core functions?

Mae gennym ni gyfrifoldeb cyfreithiol o ran beth dŷn ni'n delio efo fel rheoleiddwyr, felly does gennym ni ddim llawer o reolaeth. Os oes yna rywun yn cwyno i ni ac mae'r gŵyn yn un dilys, mae'n rhaid inni weithredu, mae'n rhaid inni ymchwilio, mae'n rhaid inni roi adnodd i mewn i hynny. Dwi'n meddwl mai dyna'r sefyllfa sydd wedi wynebu’r cyn-gomisiynydd, lle mae yna waith hybu a hyrwyddo sydd, i bob pwrpas, wedi diflannu achos roedd rhaid iddi hi gynnal ei chyfrifoldebau cyfreithiol fel rheoleiddiwr. Dwi'n awyddus i wneud cymaint ag y medrwn ni o ran hybu a hyrwyddo, ond hefyd mae'n rhaid imi fod yn eithaf clir ynglŷn â beth yn union sy'n digwydd, felly, ydy, mae o'n bryder. Dwi'n meddwl bod beth dŷn ni'n ei gynnig yn mynd i symud agenda Cymraeg 2050 ymlaen, ond, wrth gwrs, dŷn ni'n awyddus iawn hefyd i gryfhau'n partneriaeth ni efo cyrff eraill, felly hwyrach bod yna rai cyrff eraill lle mae'r Llywodraeth yn meddwl, wel, hwyrach, buasai'n fwy rhesymol iddyn nhw wneud y gwaith yna—mater i'r Llywodraeth ydy hynny. Ond y cwbl medrwn ni ei wneud ydy dangos i'r Llywodraeth beth ydy goblygiadau unrhyw benderfyniadau ariannol maen nhw'n ei wneud.

We have a legal responsibility in terms of our regulatory role, so we don't have much control. If someone makes a complaint and that complaint is valid, then we must take action, we must investigate and we must provide resources for that. I think that's the situation that faced my predecessor, where there has been promotion work, which, to all intents and purposes, has disappeared, because she had to undertake her legal responsibilities as a regulator. Now, I'm eager to do as much as we can in terms of promotion, but I have to be clear about exactly what is happening, so, yes, it's a concern. I believe the what we provide will move the Cymraeg 2050 agenda forward, but, of course, we are also very eager to strengthen our partnerships with other organisations, so there may be other bodies where the Government thinks, well, perhaps it would be more reasonable for them to undertake that work—that's a matter for Government. But all we can do is to demonstrate to Government what the implications of any financial decisions that they make are.

Diolch, David. Dŷn ni ddim â lot o amser nawr i fynd i mewn i'r adroddiad sicrwydd, ond gwnawn ni ofyn cwestiynau o fewn yr amser sydd gyda ni. Mae gyda ni ddogfen gynhwysfawr gennych chi, ta beth. Felly, symudwn ni ymlaen at hynny, a dwi'n mynd i fynd yn syth at Mick Antoniw ynglŷn â'r adroddiad sicrwydd a'r perfformiad cyffredinol. Mick.

Thank you, David. We haven't got much time now to look at the assurance report, but we will ask questions within the time we have left. We have a comprehensive document from you, anyway. Moving on to that, I'm going to go straight to Mick Antoniw on the assurance report and the overall performance. Mick.

Thank you for that. One of the aspects in the assurance report relates, in many cases, to people's first approach to using the language, that is receptions services—you contact an organisation and engage with them. And the indications there and the evidence seems to be that there's a very variable response and it isn't one that's necessarily improving, which is a bit surprising. I wonder if you could explain what your thoughts are as to what is happening, because this is quite an important first step for many people, isn't it?

Diolch yn fawr. Mae'r adroddiadau dŷn ni wedi bod yn eu gwneud o flwyddyn i flwyddyn yn dangos, dwi'n meddwl, fod y pethau gweledol ysgrifenedig i gyd yn tueddu i gydymffurfio'n dda. Mae'r gwasanaeth ffôn wedi bod yn dda, ond mae wedi dirywio eleni. Ond efo'r elfennau gofal gwasanaeth personol neu rywbeth sydd angen pobl i'w wneud o, mae'r cynnydd wedi bod yn arafach neu ddim yn digwydd. Dŷn ni yn cwrdd efo cyrff. Byddwn ni'n mynd i weld 70 o sefydliadau, yn dilyn cyhoeddi'r adroddiad yma, i drafod y canlyniadau efo nhw, yn enwedig lle mae gennym ni gonsérn a phryder. Ond un enghraifft, efallai, i chi ydy lle, efallai, fod sefydliad yn defnyddio prentisiaid ac yn y blaen i'r gwasanaeth derbynfa, ac maen nhw'n cyflogi pobl sydd yn medru'r Gymraeg, ac maen nhw'n dod ac yn gwneud y gwaith ond wedyn yn symud ymlaen—naill ai bod y prentisiaeth yn dod i ben, neu maen nhw'n cael swyddi eraill yn y sefydliad. Felly, mae o'n broblem parhaus. Mae yna rai sefydliadau wedi cael datrysiadau, ond yn y bôn dwi'n meddwl ei fod o'n golygu ymrwymiad i gyflogi pobl.

Mae ambell i sefydliad ddim wedi dehongli'r gofyniad yn gywir. Mae gennym ni enghreifftiau o gyrff yn gofyn i ni, 'Ydy o'n iawn i gael rhywun di-Gymraeg yn gallu darllen sgript er mwyn delio â phobl ar y ffôn?' ac yn y blaen. Felly, mae deall y gofynion a datblygu sgiliau yn cymryd mwy o amser. Mae recriwtio a delio â'r newid yn mynd i fod yn rhywbeth sydd yn digwydd yn arafach, ond dŷn ni angen, dwi'n meddwl, trafod yn ofalus efo cyrff dros yr hydref rŵan inni gael deall ym mhob achos pam nad oes yna gynnydd fel y dylai fod.

Thank you very much. The reports that we've been doing year on year show that the visual written aspects, I think, tend to comply well. The phone service has been good, but it has declined this year. But with elements regarding personal care or something that requires people to do so, the increase has been slower or not happening. We are meeting with bodies. We're going to see 70 organisations, following the publication of this report, to discuss the results, particularly where we have some concerns. But one example for you, perhaps, is where an organisation is perhaps using apprentices and so forth on its reception, and it employs people who can speak Welsh, and they come and do the work but then move on when either the apprenticeship comes to an end or they get another post within the organisation. So, it is a continuing problem. Some organisations have found solutions, but, ultimately, I do think it means a commitment to employ people.

Some organisations haven't interpreted the requirement correctly. We have examples of bodies asking us, 'Is it okay to have somebody who is non-Welsh speaking but is able to read a script in order to deal with people on the phone?', and so forth. Understanding the requirements and developing skills does take more time. Recruitment and dealing with the change is going to be something that is going to happen at a slower pace, but we need, I think, to discuss very carefully with organisations over the next few months in the autumn to understand, in each case, why there hasn't been the progress that there should have been.

11:45

It's particularly important with some of the personal services that people deal with, and some that are more urgent, time sensitive and so on. What is your experience in terms of instances of complaints or discourtesy? What's the understanding as to that? Are those exceptional instances? Some, obviously, achieve publicity and so on, but, in general, is it a concern to you?

Dwi'n meddwl beth buaswn i'n ei ddweud yw ein bod ni wedi bod yn mynd allan â chwrdd efo defnyddwyr dros gyfnod o flynyddoedd ac mae'r sylwadau wedi newid. Yn y blynyddoedd cyntaf pan oeddem ni'n cwrdd efo grwpiau ffocws, roedd o'n fwy cyffredin i gael defnyddwyr yn dweud y math yna o beth, ond dŷn ni yn cael negeseuon rŵan yn dweud bod pethau'n gwella. Ond, yn amlwg, mae'r adroddiad yma, fel pob adroddiad arall, yn cyfeirio at achosion lle mae anghwrteisi neu negyddiaeth wedi dod i'r amlwg, a dŷn ni'n hunain yn gwirio ac yn cofnodi profiadau felly. Ydy o'n mynd i annog rhywun i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg y tro nesaf? Na. Mae angen mynd i'r afael â beth sy'n digwydd, beth ydy'r ymddygiad a chynllunio gwasanaethau rheng flaen tipyn yn fwy gofalus.

Fel oeddwn i'n ei ddweud ar y dechrau, dŷn ni am fwydo'r profiadau yma nôl i'r sefydliadau a gweithio ar sut mae'r cynnig yna yn cael ei wneud. Mae yna un project ynglŷn â chynnig dewis yr ydym ni ni wedi gweithio efo'r Llywodraeth a chyrff eraill arno fo. Mae yna nifer o ffactorau ac ymyriadau sydd angen eu datblygu er mwyn i'r nudge yna ddigwydd, i bobl ddefnyddio. Mae cael y staff yna a'u bod nhw'n ymddwyn yn hyrwyddol yn bwysig iawn, iawn.

I think what I would say is that we have been going out to meet with service users over a period of years, and their comments have changed. In those first years so when we were meeting with focus groups, it was more common to have users making those sorts of comments, but we do now receive messages that things are improving. But, clearly, this report, like all other reports, does refer to particular cases where there has been discourtesy or negativity, and we ourselves do check and keep a record of those experiences. Is that going to encourage people to use the Welsh language the next time? Well, no, it isn't. We do need to tackle these issues, what those behaviours are and to plan front-line services in a more measured and careful manner.

As I said at the outset, we want to feed these experiences back to the organisations and institutions and to work on how that offer is made. That is one project on an active offer that we have been working with the Government and other organisations on. There are a number of factors and interventions that need to be developed so that that nudge can happen, so that people do make use of the services. Getting the staff in place and ensuring that they do promote services is very important.

Un pwynt hefyd yw ein bod ni'n awyddus iawn bod y cyrff yma yn gwirio mwy o hyn eu hunain. Felly, nid jest mater o ddibynnu ar bobl yn cwyno, ond eu bod nhw yn gwneud pethau fel siopwyr cudd er mwyn gweld yn union beth ydy'r math o ymateb maen nhw'n ei weld yn fewnol.

Dwi'n meddwl mai'r peth sydd yn codi yma, hefyd, ydy diffyg cynllunio o ran y gweithlu. Felly, prin iawn ydy'r cyrff ar hyn o bryd sydd efo darlun cyflawn o ran sgiliau ieithyddol eu staff presennol. Mae yna gamau da yn cael eu cymryd o ran uwchsgilio sgiliau ieithyddol y gweithlu presennol mewn rhai mannau, ond dydy hynny ddim yn gyson ym mhob man, a hefyd gwneud yn siŵr eu bod nhw—. Beth dwi'n methu credu ydy nifer y bobl ifanc roeddwn i'n cyfarfod yn y dwyrain oedd wedi mynychu ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg ac yn dweud nad oedden nhw wedi cael llawer o gyfleoedd i ddefnyddio eu Cymraeg ar ôl ysgol, ac eto dwi'n mynd i gyfarfodydd efo'r cynghorau yn yr un ardal neu fyrddau iechyd yn yr un ardal ac maen nhw'n dweud eu bod nhw'n cael problem recriwtio staff dwyieithog. Mae yna rywbeth ar goll yna o ran y ffordd mae'r gyfundrefn bresennol yn gweithio. Mae'n rhaid inni hefyd ganolbwyntio ar wneud i'r bobl ifanc yna sylweddoli bod yr iaith Gymraeg yn sgìl yn ei hun ac yn rhywbeth sydd yn werthfawr, a rhywbeth sydd yn mynd i roi cyfle iddyn nhw o ran swydd.

I think another point is that we're very keen that these organisations check more of this themselves. So, it shouldn't be a matter of them relying on people complaining but that they have mystery shoppers in order to see exactly the response that they have on an internal level.

I think what arises here as well is the lack of workforce planning. So, those bodies that have a complete picture in terms of the language skills of their current staff are few and far between. There are good steps being taken in terms of upskilling the language skills of the current workforce in some areas, but that isn't consistent everywhere, and also ensuring—. What I can't believe is the number of young people that I was meeting in the east who had been to Welsh-medium schools and who were saying that they hadn't had many opportunities to use the Welsh language after leaving school, and yet I go to meetings with councils and health boards in those areas and hear that they have a problem with recruiting bilingual staff. Something is amiss there in terms of the way the current system works. We also have to focus on making those young people understand that the Welsh language is a skill in itself and something that is valuable and going to provide them with an opportunity in terms of a job.

11:50

How do you think the standards could be improved in this area? What would you also say should be the acceptable level of service or standard that should be applied, certainly in these circumstances?

Wel, mae angen i'r corff yn y lle cyntaf ddeall beth yn union ydy maint y galw, ond hefyd sut maen nhw—. Ar hyn o bryd, does yna ddim llawer, o beth dwi'n ei weld, dealltwriaeth ynglŷn â beth sydd angen iddyn nhw fynd ati i ddelio efo'r galw yna. Dyna rhan o'r gwaith yr oedd Gwenith yn cyfeirio ato fo; hwyrach fod y sgwrs rydym ni'n ei cynnal efo'r cyrff yna yn symud oddi wrth bathodyn oren yn y dderbynfa i beth yn union maen nhw'n ei wneud o ran cynllunio gweithlu i'r dyfodol a pha gyfleoedd sydd ar gael i staff. Mae yna lawer iawn o staff, hwyrach, sydd efo sgiliau i fedru'r Gymraeg, ond sydd yn ddi-hyder. Felly, beth yn union maen nhw'n ei wneud i drosglwyddo'r hyder yna nôl at y staff fel bod gyda nhw gyfle i wneud defnydd? Mae'r sefyllfa yn gwella, ond mae yna lawer iawn mwy i'w wneud.

Well, the body initially needs to understand the scale of demand, but also how they—. At the moment, from what I see, there isn't a great understanding of what they need to do to meet that demand, and that is part of the work that Gwenith referred to, in that perhaps the conversation we have with those bodies would move from an orange badge in reception to what exactly they're doing on workforce planning for the future and what opportunities there are for staff. There are many staff who perhaps do have Welsh language skills but lack confidence. So, what exactly are they doing to provide the staff with that confidence so that they have an opportunity to make use of their skills? The situation is improving, but there's a lot more to be done.

Grêt. Symudwn ni ymlaen yn fras i gysondeb y ddarpariaeth. Delyth.

Great. We'll move on to consistency of service provision. Delyth.

Roeddem ni'n trafod yn gynharach sut mae cwmnïau gwahanol yn gallu dysgu oddi wrth ei gilydd o ran arfer da. O ran yr inconsistency—anghysondeb, sori; fe wnes i anghofio'r gair—rhwng sut mae cwmnïau neu gyrff yn darparu gwasanaethau Cymraeg, a ydy hwnna'n rhywbeth y byddwch chi'n gweld mwy mewn rhai sectorau neu gyda rhai meysydd arbennig, os ydyn nhw'n bethau mwy technegol, neu—?

We were talking earlier about how companies can learn from each other in terms of good practice. In terms of inconsistency—sorry, I forgot the word—in the way companies or bodies provide Welsh language services, is that something, in terms of inconsistency, that you would see more in certain sectors, or in some specific areas, whether they're more technical, or—?

Wel, o ran y sector preifat, busnesau a chwmnïau yn benodol, beth rydym ni'n gweld ydy bod yna ddiffyg gwybodaeth mewn gwirionedd ynglŷn â pha wasanaethau sy'n cael eu darparu. Felly, beth rydym ni'n awyddus i'w wneud ydy, wrth inni weithio efo cwmnïau, ei gwneud yn llawer mwy amlwg i'r cyhoedd pa wasanaethau sy'n cael eu darparu gan y cwmnïau hynny yn Gymraeg. Mae yna anghysondeb, yn sicr, ond, yn y sector yna, y diffyg gorfodi ydy'r broblem. Rydym ni'n gorfod gweithio efo nhw, perswadio ac ati, ond mae'n bwysig wedyn fod y gwasanaethau y maen nhw'n eu darparu yn amlwg i'r cyhoedd fel bod y rheini wedyn yn cael eu defnyddio.

Felly, wrth weithio efo cwmnïau, dyna'r cyfeiriad rydym ni'n awyddus i fynd iddo fo. Ond rydych chi'n iawn pan fyddwch chi'n dweud bod elfen o gystadleuaeth fanna hefyd, yn amlwg. Os ydym ni'n dod â nhw ynghyd, yna mae rhannu gwybodaeth yn aml iawn ynddo'i hun yn arwain at gynnydd. Felly, mae hynny'n bwysig, yn bendant.  

Well, in terms of the private sector and businesses and companies specifically, what we do see is that there is a lack of information about what services are provided. So what we're eager to do, as we work with companies, is to make it far more apparent to the public what services are available from those companies through the medium of Welsh. There is certainly inconsistency, but, in that sector, it's the absence of enforcement that's the problem. So, we have to work with them, we have to persuade and cajole them, but it's then important that the services that they do provide are prominent to the public, so that they are used.

So, in working with companies, that's the direction that we're keen to travel in, but you're right when you say that there is an element of competition here, too. So, if we do bring them together, then sharing information very often leads to progress in and of itself. So, that's certainly important.

Diolch. A ydych chi'n gweld gwahaniaeth mawr ac amlwg o ran y sefydliadau neu'r cyrff sydd yn gorfod cydymffurfio gyda safonau o'u cymharu â fel oedd pethau yn arfer bod, trwy'r hen Welsh language schemes, fel oedden nhw?

Thank you. Do you see a great difference, a clear difference, in terms of organisations or bodies that have to comply with standards compared with how things used to be through the old Welsh language schemes?

Ydyn, yn bendant. Mae'r cyfundrefnau—naill ai dim yn y sector breifat, cynlluniau iaith neu safonau—yn bendant yn gwneud gwahaniaeth yn y perfformiad. Dwi'n meddwl bod pethau datganoledig ac annatganoledig, hefyd—. Mae yna gyswllt yn fanna o ran nad ydym ni eto wedi gosod safonau ar nifer o adrannau, ac yn y blaen, sy'n darparu gwasanaethau i Gymru sydd ddim wedi'u dal o dan y drefn hyd yma. Mae yna wahaniaeth ac anghysondeb pan fo'r gofynion yn uwch nag is; dyna ydy o. Mae'r safonau yn benodol, yn rheolau ac yn ddyletswydd, lle mae'r cynlluniau iaith yn gynllun mae corff yn barod i'w baratoi, ond yn ymrwymiad. Dim ond y gofyniad i gael cynllun sydd yn statudol. Dwi'n meddwl bod yna anghysondeb ynglŷn â sut mae cyrff yn dewis gweithredu, a dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna'n ddibynnol ar arweiniad o fewn y corff yn aml iawn, yn hytrach na'r gyfundrefn ei hun, ac anghysondeb o ran dilyniant. Weithiau cewch chi lythyr yn Gymraeg ar y dechrau ond wedyn rydych chi'n symud i gael pethau yn Saesneg.

O ran sectorau o fewn y drefn, neu yng Nghymru, dros y blynyddoedd mae'r sector iechyd wedi bod yn sylweddol waeth na sectorau eraill yng Nghymru, ond dŷn ni wedi gweld yn y gwaith monitro eleni fod yna rywfaint o gynnydd. So, mae'n siŵr eu bod nhw'n paratoi at ddod o dan y drefn safonau, ac mae hynny'n arwydd bod y drefn ynddi'i hun yn cymell gweithredu.

Dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni'n gweld arwyddion o newid mewn ardaloedd. Mae'r adroddiad sicrwydd yn sôn am y de-ddwyrain, lle mae yna gynnydd, ac roedd yna 65 y cant, yn yr arolwg defnyddwyr, yn dweud eu bod nhw'n gweld pethau'n gwella yn fanna, o'i gymharu efo 37 y cant dros Gymru gyfan, sydd yn gwneud i rywun feddwl bod y drefn safonau yn sbarduno gwelliant lle mae angen i hynny ddigwydd.

Mae yna bethau penodol, wedyn—roedd Aled yn sôn am sgiliau. Dŷn ni yn gweld anghysondeb yn sut mae cyrff, o'u mewn nhw, yn asesu sgiliau o un cyfnod i'r llall. Felly, mae yna waith i ni ei wneud i godi safon ac i sefydliadau eu hunain ei wneud, fel yr oedd Aled yn sôn gynnau, ynglŷn â hunanasesu a gwirio mewnol.

Yr unig beth arall, o ran y defnydd, ydy bod 33 y cant yn dweud eu bod nhw yn defnyddio, ond 42 y cant yn dymuno. Mae hynny'n rhywbeth i ni gael ein dannedd mewn iddo fo ac i sefydliadau fod eisiau gwneud rhywbeth ynglŷn â fo, a defnyddio'r safonau i gyflawni'r amcan o gynyddu defnydd dyddiol.

Without doubt, yes. The regimes in place—either nothing in the private sector, language schemes or standards—certainly make a difference in terms of performance. I think that devolved and non-devolved areas are also an issue in terms of us not having yet imposed standards on many departments that provide services in Wales that aren't captured under the system as it currently exists. There is a difference where the requirements are at a higher or a lower level. The standards are specific, as rules and duties, where the Welsh language schemes are schemes that bodies are willing to prepare, but as a commitment. It is the merely the requirement to have a scheme in place that is statutory. I think there is an inconsistency in terms of how organisations choose to operate, and I think that that depends very often on leadership within the organisation rather than the regime itself, or the system itself, where there is inconsistency in terms of continuity. You may receive a Welsh language letter initially but then you will receive materials in English only.

In terms of sectors within Wales, over the past few years the health sector has performed significantly worse than other sectors in Wales, but we have seen through our monitoring work this year that there has been some progress made. I am sure that they are preparing to be captured by standards, and that is a signal that the system itself does encourage action.

I think we are seeing signs of change in certain areas. The assurance report refers to the south-east, where there has been progress, and 65 per cent in the user survey said that they saw improvements there, compared with an all-Wales figure of 37 per cent, which makes one think that the standards system does promote improvement where that is most required.

There are specifics then—Aled mentioned skills. We do see inconsistency in terms of how bodies internally assess skill levels from one period to the next. So, there is some work for us to do to improve the situation there, and for organisations themselves to do on self-assessment and internal audits.

The only other thing, in terms of usage, is that 33 per cent state that they do use services, but 42 per cent would wish to use services. That is something that we really do need to get our teeth into so that institutions should want to address that, using the standards in order to deliver the objective of increasing usage on a daily basis.

11:55

Sori i dorri ar draws. Os oes amser i ni ddod at y set o gwestiynau olaf sydd gen i, mae hynny'n rhywbeth y byddwn i eisiau gofyn i chi amdano. Ond, jest yn olaf fan hyn—. Na, bydd dim amser, rwy'n gweld—

Sorry to interrupt. If there's time for us to come to the final set of questions that I have, that's something I would ask you about. But just finally here—. No, there will be no time, as I can see now—

Delyth, wyt ti jest eisiau gwneud nhw—y ddau bwynt bwled cyntaf—gan dy fod di arno fe?

Delyth, do you just want to cover the first two bullet points?

Cynyddu gallu'r gweithlu.

Increasing workforce capacity.

Dwi ddim eisiau gadael heddiw heb ofyn y cwestiynau yma. Wyt ti'n iawn gyda hynny?

I don't want to leave today without asking these questions. Are you okay with that?

Reit, ocê, iawn—mae hynny'n bwysicach na lleoliad, rwy'n cymryd. Mi wnaf i fynd yn syth at hynny. Sori, dŷn ni eisiau gwneud yn siŵr ein bod ni'n cyfro rhai pethau ac mae'r amser yn brin iawn. O ran yr asesiadau anghenion iaith pan fo swyddi newydd yn cael eu cyhoeddi, oes yna unrhyw arferion da y byddech chi eisiau eu trafod? Hefyd, roeddech chi'n dweud yn yr adroddiad na all asesiadau seiliedig ar sgiliau gymryd lle categorïau angen o ran beth sy'n ddymunol a beth sy'n hanfodol. A allwch chi sôn am y ddau beth yna, plîs?

No problem at all—that's more important than location, I take it. Sorry, we want to make sure that we cover certain issues, and time is scarce. As to the assessments in terms of language needs for vacant posts, are there any examples of good practice that you would like to discuss? Also, you said in the report that new skills-based assessments cannot replace categories of need, in terms of what's desirable and what's essential. Can you talk about those two aspects, please?

Mae'n mynd yn ôl i'r pwynt roeddwn i'n ei wneud yn gynharach ynglŷn â phwysigrwydd gwneud asesiad ystyrlon. Dwi'n meddwl, mewn rhai amgylchiadau roeddwn i'n eu gweld, yn enwedig gyda'r gofyniad 'dymunol', ei bod yn ymddangos i ni ei bod jest yn rhywbeth 'tic yn y bocs'. Mae'n arwyddo pryder, i ryw raddau, fod y corff wedyn ddim yn edrych ar beth maen nhw'n ei wneud ac yn cynllunio'n fwriadus i gael sgiliau mewn ar gyfer cyflawni pethau penodol. Felly, dwi'n meddwl mai dyna'r pwynt o egwyddor sy'n codi o'r adroddiad, er ei fod o'n fanylach na hynny.

This goes back to my earlier point on the importance of carrying out a meaningful assessment. I do think that, in some circumstances we saw, particularly with the 'desirable' requirement, that it appeared to us to be a tick-box exercise. That flags a concern that the organisation isn't looking at what it's doing and planning meaningfully in terms of attaining those skills in order to deliver. I think that's the point of principle arising from the report, although it goes into a lot more detail than that, of course.

Mae hynny'n amlwg, er enghraifft, o'r trafodaethau dŷn ni'n eu cynnal ar hyn o bryd efo'r sector iechyd, lle dŷn ni wedi bod yn gofyn y cwestiwn, 'Wel, beth yn union ydych chi'n edrych arno fo o ran sgiliau ieithyddol o ran eich gweithlu yn y dyfodol?' Maen nhw'n cyfeirio ni at yr IMTPs. Mae'r IMTPs, i bob pwrpas, o beth dwi'n gweld, jest yn cymryd cipolwg ar y sefyllfa. Felly, fel roedd Gwenith yn dweud, maen nhw'n ticio'r bocs eu bod nhw wedi ei ystyried o, ond dŷn ni i gyd yn gwybod bod yna asesiadau sydd wedi cael eu cyflawni dros nifer o flynyddoedd lle, i ddweud y gwir, nid oes gwir feddwl y tu ôl i'r peth.

Rwy'n meddwl beth dŷn ni'n awyddus i'w wneud hefyd ydy ein bod ni'n deall gofynion y corff unigol, achos mae yna ofynion gwahanol o fewn gwahanol ardaloedd, a'u bod nhw o leiaf yn meddwl am y peth ac yn gweld bod yna gynllun ar gyfer y siwrnai y maen nhw arni hi.

That is clear, for example, from the discussions we're holding at the moment with the health sector, where we've been asking the question, 'What exactly are you looking at in terms of language skills in terms of your future workforce?' They refer us to the IMTPs. The IMTPs, to all intents and purposes, from what I can see, are just a snapshot of the situation. As Gwenith says, they tick a box to show that they've considered it, but we all know that there are assessments that have been conducted over a number of years where, really, there's no real thought behind it.

I think what we're keen to do is understand the requirements of the individual bodies, because there are different requirements within different areas, and that they are at least thinking about it and see that there is a plan for the journey they're on.

Weithiau mae yna kick-back, yn enwedig gyda hysbysebion 'dymunol' a 'hanfodol', er enghraifft. Efallai dyna pam mae yna symud tuag at edrych ar y sgiliau yn fwy eang. Ydych chi wedi edrych ar, efallai, ble mae hysbysebion yn amrywio a ble mae hynny wedyn yn effeithio ar bwy sydd yn cael y swydd, a sut mae'r sgiliau hynny yn datblygu wedyn?

Sometimes there is kick-back, particularly in terms of job adverts that note 'desirable' or 'essential' requirements. Perhaps that's why there has been a move towards looking at skills more generally. Have you looked at where there is that difference in terms of job adverts and who actually gets those posts, and how those skills are developed?

Mae yna rai achosion lle, hwyrach, y byddem ni wedi cymryd safbwynt, fel corff, lle doedden ni ddim yn hollol esmwyth efo'r ffordd roedd y corff yn mynd i newid pethau. Wnaf i gyfeirio, er enghraifft, at Heddlu'r Gogledd. Roedd Heddlu'r Gogledd efo polisi lle roedden nhw'n cyfeirio at lefel sgiliau ieithyddol o fewn pob hysbyseb. Mi wnaethon nhw newid eu polisi, ac, o ran y ganolfan alwadau, ddaru nhw ddweud, 'Wel, dŷn ni'n mynd i gael gwared ar y lefelau', a'n pryder ni oedd eu bod nhw'n israddio pwysigrwydd y Gymraeg o ran recriwtio. Ond dyma nhw'n dweud, 'Wel, beth dŷn ni wedi ffeindio ydy os ydyn ni'n cyfeirio at lefel 3 neu lefel 4, mae yna bobl sydd yn chwilio am swyddi'n meddwl bod yn rhaid iddyn nhw gael gradd yn y Gymraeg i gyflawni'r swydd yna, a dydy o ddim. Nid dyna'r gofyn. Nid dyna beth dŷn ni angen. Dŷn ni angen pobl sydd yn medru siarad yn rhugl ond hwyrach dyw eu sgiliau ysgrifenedig nhw ddim cystal'. Felly, dyma ni'n dweud, 'Ocê', dyma nhw'n dod yn ôl atom ni, a'r dystiolaeth oedd eu bod nhw wedi cael mwy o bobl oedd yn medru'r Gymraeg yn ceisio am y swyddi ar ôl iddyn nhw newid y ffordd roedden nhw'n hysbysebu. Felly, mae yna wers i ni gymryd hefyd o ran, hwyrach, ein hagwedd ni—nad ŷn ni yn rhy haearnaidd wrth i ni symud ymlaen. Beth dŷn ni'n awyddus i weld ydy capasiti'r sefydliadau yma i gyd o ran gwasanaethau Cymraeg a defnydd ei hun. Achos os dŷn ni'n gweld cynydd yn y defnydd yn y pen draw, dyna beth fydd yn codi'n targed ni o fewn Cymraeg 2050—yn hytrach na bod 9 y cant o'r boblogaeth yn siarad Cymraeg yn ddyddiol ar hyn o bryd, ein bod ni yn gwireddu'r freuddwyd o 20 y cant ohonom ni'n defnyddio'r Gymraeg o ddydd i ddydd. 

There are some cases where, perhaps, we, as an organisation, would have taken a view as an organisation that we wouldn't be entirely comfortable with the way that the body was going to change things. I will refer to North Wales Police. They had a policy where they referred to a skills level—a language skills level—within every job advert. Now, they changed their policy. In terms of the call centre, they said, 'Well, we're going to scrap levels', and our concern was that they were going to downgrade the importance of the Welsh language in terms of recruitment, but they said, 'Well, what we've found is that, if we refer to level 3 or level 4, there are people who are seeking jobs who think that they need a degree in Welsh in order to carry out those responsibilities and that isn't the requirement. That's not what we need. We need people who are able to speak fluently but perhaps their written skills wouldn't be as strong'. So, we said, 'Okay', they came back to us, and the evidence was that they had got more people who were able to work through the medium of Welsh applying for those posts once they'd changed the way they advertised. So, there are lessons for us to learn in terms of our attitude—that we shouldn't be too hardline in the way that we move forward. What we are eager to see is that the capacity of these institutions in terms of Welsh language services is in place and that usage is made of those services because if we see an increase in usage then that's what will actually deliver our targets within Cymraeg 2050—rather than 9 per cent of the population speaking Welsh on a daily basis at the moment, that we do achieve 20 per cent of us using the Welsh language on a daily basis.

12:00

Felly, hyblygrwydd yn y system, felly, sydd yn bwysig.

So, it's flexibility in the system that's important. 

Ie, a deall y corff yn hytrach inni gael rhyw gynllun haearnaidd o ran beth ydy gofynion y corff unigol. Achos dyna beth dŷn ni'n ei wneud hefyd—mae yna adegau lle, hwyrach, y corff a'r bobl ar lawr gwlad yn deall eu sefyllfa nhw'n well, ond bod nhw'n trafod hynny efo ni cyn iddyn nhw fynd ati a newid unrhyw bolisiau.

Yes, and understanding the organisation rather than having some hardline scheme in terms of the requirements of any individual body. Because that's another thing that we do—there are times where, perhaps, the organisation, people on the ground, would understand their situation better but that they should discuss that with us before they change any of their policies.

Dyna'r oll—. Sori am dorri pawb arall allan, ond dyna'r oll sydd ar ôl gyda ni o ran yr adroddiad sicrwydd. Os oes cwestiynau gyda ni, fe wnawn ni ysgrifennu atoch chi. Mae Delyth yn cael un cwestiwn ychwanegol ynglŷn â rhywbeth sydd ddim yn ymwneud â'r adroddiad yma, ond diolch i chi am eich tystiolaeth bore yma.

Sorry to cut everybody else out, but that's all the time we have on the assurance report. If we have any further questions, we'll write to you. Delyth has one additional question regarding something that is not related to this report, but thank you for your evidence this morning.

Ie. Roeddwn i jest eisiau gofyn—. Roedd Gweinidog materion allanol y Llywodraeth y bore yma—. Wel, mae'r newyddion wedi torri'r bore yma dyw'r Llywodraeth ddim yn meddwl cefnogi ffoaduriaid yn derbyn gwersi Cymraeg. Oes gennych chi farn ar hynny?

I just wanted to ask—. The external affairs Minister of the Government this morning—. News has broken this morning that the Government isn't thinking of supporting Welsh lessons for refugees. What's your opinion of that?

Dwi wedi trefnu cyfarfod rhai wythnosau yn ôl efo'r ganolfan dysgu genedlaethol a beth dwi'n awyddus i wneud ydy deall yn union beth ydy natur y trafodaethau rhyngddyn nhw. Mae yna fanion o ran y polisi ffoaduriaid lle mae yna ofynion ychwanegol o ran yr athrawon a phethau o ran diogelwch a phethau felly, a beth yn union, felly—. Dwi'n meddwl bod angen i mi ddeall yn union beth ydy'r gofynion ychwanegol hynny ac os oes yna gapasiti o fewn y ganolfan ddysgu i—. Ond, yn amlwg, mewn egwyddor, buaswn i'n meddwl bod yna ofyn i bobl sydd yn mudo i Gymru i ddeall yr iaith Gymraeg. Dyna'n safbwynt i o egwyddor, ond mae'n rhaid inni fod yn hollol ddiogel o ran y trefniadau ymarferol y bydd yn rhaid eu gwneud. 

I have organised a meeting with the centre for Welsh language learning and what I want to do is to understand the nature of the discussions that they've had. There are certain issues in terms of the immigration policy where there are additional requirements in terms of teachers and safeguarding and so on and so forth. So, I do think that I need to understand exactly what those additional requirements are and if there is capacity within the centre for learning Welsh, but, in principle, I would have thought that people who do come to Wales should be enabled to learn the Welsh language. That's my point of principle, but we have to be assured in terms of the practicalities that would have to be in place. 

Allaf i jest ychwanegu'n gloi—? Byddwn i'n erfyn arnoch chi i drafod gyda Chyngor Ffoaduriaid Cymru hefyd achos mae yna bobl yn fanna'n cael eu hyfforddi—. Datgan diddordeb: mae fy mam i wedi cymryd rhan yn y cynllun i hyfforddi pobl i ddysgu Saesneg, ond mae hi'n medru'r Gymraeg. Does neb wedi gofyn iddi hi os byddai hi'n gallu gwneud y pethau yma ar lawr gwlad ac wedyn mae hi yn mynd i'r gwersi ac mae hi jest yn dysgu'r Gymraeg fel mater o gwrs wedyn hefyd, ond pe byddai yna ryw fath o gynllun i ofyn ar gychwyn y daith, i rywun sydd yn athrawes, 'Beth yw eich sgiliau chi?', dwi'n credu byddai hynny'n helpu. Felly, dwi'n erfyn arnoch chi i drafod gyda'r mudiadau sydd yn barod yn rhoi'r gwersi yma i ffoaduriaid. 

If I could just add swiftly, I would urge you to have discussions with the Welsh Refugee Council too because there are people there—. I declare an interest: my mother has participated in the programme to train people to teach English, but she is also a Welsh speaker and nobody has asked her whether she could provide these services on the ground and she does go to these lessons and teaches Welsh as a matter of course, but, if there were some sort of programme, if we could ask at the beginning of one's journey as a teacher, 'Well, what are your skills?', I think that would be of huge assistance. So, I'd urge you to have discussions with those organisations already providing these services to immigrants and asylum seekers.

Dŷn ni hefyd yn trefnu cyfarfod efo'r barnteriaeth mewnfudo er mwyn i ni drafod ymhellach.

We've also arranged a meeting with the immigration partnership in order to discuss this further.

Grêt. Bydd hwnna'n help mawr. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod i mewn atom heddiw. Yn sicr, byddwn ni'n cadw golwg ar eich gwaith chi, ac os byddech chi'n gallu cael nodyn i ni ynglŷn â'r— 

Great. That's a great help. Thank you very much for joining us today. We will certainly keep a close eye on your work and if you could provide us with a note on—

Siŵr iawn. 

Of course.

—disgresiwn yna dŷch chi newydd ei roi ar y cwynion, byddai hynny'n helpu. 

—discretion on complaints, then that would certainly assist us.

4. Papurau i’w nodi
4. Paper(s) to note

Symud ymlaen nawr, felly, at bapurau i'w nodi. Mae yna nifer o bapurau. Dwi ddim eisiau mynd trwyddyn nhw i gyd, ond hoffwn i ofyn ichi ynglŷn â’r ohebiaeth â’r Dirprwy Weinidog Diwylliant, Chwaraeon a Thwristiaeth ynglŷn â chelfyddydau creadigol—mae yna bwt yn y llythyr hynny ynglŷn â Chymru Greadigol a’r ffaith eu bod nhw am hysbysebu’r swydd yna. Roeddwn i eisiau ysgrifennu nôl at y Gweinidog yn gofyn a allwn ni gael manylion yr hysbysebion hynny er mwyn deall pwy fyddai’n gallu mynd am y swydd a sut fath o swydd fyddai hynny. Ydy pawb yn hapus gyda gwneud hynny ac unrhyw sylwadau eraill sydd gennych chi ar y papurau i’w nodi? Ocê.

Moving on now to papers to note. There are a number of papers to note. I don't want to go through them all, but I would like to ask you, on the correspondence with the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism regarding the arts and creative industry—there is a section in that letter on Creative Wales and the fact that they are to advertise that post. I wanted to write back to the Minister asking for details of those advertisements to understand exactly who would qualify to apply for those posts and what the post would entail. Is everyone content with that, and do you have any other comments on papers to note? Okay.

12:05
5. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(vi) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod hwn
5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42(vi) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Wedyn, cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog i wahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod. Ydy pawb yn hapus? Diolch.

And then a motion under Standing Orders to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Everyone content? Thank you.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 12:05.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 12:05.

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