Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu - Y Bumed Senedd

Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee - Fifth Senedd

13/02/2019

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Bethan Sayed AM Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Carwyn Jones AM Yn dirprwyo ar ran Mick Antoniw
Substitute for Mick Antoniw
Dai Lloyd AM
David Melding AM
Jayne Bryant AM
Sian Gwenllian AM Yn dirprwyo ar ran Dai Lloyd am hanner cyntaf y cyfarfod
Substitute for Dai Lloyd for the first half of the meeting
Vikki Howells AM

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Bethan Webb Dirprwy Gyfarwyddwr y Gymraeg, Llywodraeth Cymru
Deputy Director Welsh Language, Welsh Government
Dr Jeremy Evas Pennaeth Hybu’r Gymraeg, Llywodraeth Cymru
Head of Welsh Language Promotion, Welsh Government
Eluned Morgan AM Gweinidog y Gymraeg a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol
Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language
Rhodri Talfan Davies Cyfarwyddwr, BBC Cymru Wales
Director, BBC Cymru Wales
Rhys Evans Pennaeth Strategaeth ac Addysg, BBC Cymru Wales
Head of Strategy and Education, BBC Cymru Wales

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Gwyn Griffiths Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
Martha Da Gama Howells Ail Glerc
Second Clerk
Nathan Wyer Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Osian Bowyer Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Robin Wilkinson Ymchwilydd
Researcher

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 9:31.

The meeting began at 9:31.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Diolch a chroeso i'r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu. Eitem 1: cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau. Hoffwn groesawu Jayne Bryant i'w chyfarfod cyntaf fel aelod swyddogol o'r pwyllgor, a dŷn ni hefyd yn croesawu Carwyn Jones sy'n dirprwyo ar ran Mick Antoniw. Mae Siân Gwenllian yn eilydd ar ran Dai Lloyd ar gyfer hanner sesiwn gyntaf y pwyllgor, ac mae Caroline Jones wedi ymddiheuro. Fyddwn ni ddim yn aros ar gyfer Aelodau eraill; byddwn ni'n parhau fel ag y mae. Oes gan unrhyw un rywbeth i'w ddatgan ar gyfer y sesiwn yma? Na. Grêt. 

Thank you and welcome to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee. item 1: introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. I'd like to welcome Jayne Bryant to her first meeting as an official member of the committee, and we also welcome Carwyn Jones who is substituting for Mick Antoniw. Siân Gwenllian is substituting for Dai Lloyd for half of the first session of the committee, and Caroline Jones has apologised. We won't be waiting for other Members; we'll continue as things are. Does anybody have anything to declare in this session? No. Great.   

2. Cefnogi a hybu'r Gymraeg: Ymchwiliad i'r cyd-destun deddfwriaethol, polisi a ehangach: Sesiwn dystiolaeth 11
2. Supporting and Promoting the Welsh Language: an Inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context: Evidence session 11

Symud ymlaen felly at eitem 2—cefnogi a hybu'r Gymraeg: ymchwiliad i'r cyd-destun deddfwriaethol a pholisi, a chroeso i Eluned Morgan, Aelod Cynulliad, Gweinidog y Gymraeg a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol, i Bethan Webb, sef dirprwy gyfarwyddwr y Gymraeg, a Jeremy Evas, pennaeth hybu'r Gymraeg. Diolch ichi am ddod atom heddiw. Yn sicr, fe fyddwch chi'n deall nawr, wedi dod mewn i'r pwyllgor nifer o adegau o'r blaen, ein bod ni'n mynd i mewn i gwestiynau ar themâu gwahanol, ac fe fyddaf i'n cychwyn gyda'r cwestiwn cyntaf. Allwch chi esbonio i ni pam dŷch chi wedi newid eich meddwl o ran rhoi Deddf newydd gerbron o ran yr iaith Gymraeg? Allwch chi roi esboniad ynglŷn â pham rydych chi wedi gwneud hynny, ar sail pa dystiolaeth, a chyd-destun y penderfyniad hwnnw? Diolch.  

Moving on, therefore, to item 2—supporting and promoting the Welsh language: an inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context, and welcome to Eluned Morgan, AM, Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language; Bethan Webb, deputy director of Welsh language; and Jeremy Evas, head of Welsh language promotion. Thank you for attending this morning. Certainly, you will understand now, having come into the committee on a number of occasions, that we ask questions on different themes, and I will start with the first question. Can you explain to us why you have changed your mind in terms of introducing a new Act in relation to the Welsh language? Can you provide us with an explanation for why you've done that, and on what basis, what evidence, and the context of that decision? Thank you. 

Member
Eluned Morgan AM 09:32:43
Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language

Yn amlwg, rŷm ni wedi cael y Papur Gwyn, ac roedd yna ymgynghoriad eithaf eang ar hynny. Rŷm ni hefyd wedi bod yn dilyn yr hyn mae rhanddeiliaid wedi bod yn ei ddweud wrthych chi yn eich ymgynghoriad chi fel pwyllgor. Ac roedd e'n dod yn amlwg inni nad oedd yna unfrydedd o ran y ffordd ymlaen, ac felly dechreuom ni edrych ar y posibiliadau o wneud yr hyn roedden ni eisiau ei gyflawni tu fewn i'r gyfundrefn bresennol. Wrth gwrs, mae pwysau deddfwriaethol oherwydd Brexit; dyw hynny wedi helpu'r achos chwaith. Ond dwi yn meddwl ei bod hi yn bosibl, tu fewn i'r gyfundrefn bresennol, inni gyrraedd yr amcanion hynny o gyrraedd miliwn o siaradwyr, felly, ymestyn y posibiliadau sydd eisoes gyda ni.  

Clearly, we had the White Paper, and there was a broad consultation on that White Paper. We've also been following what stakeholders have been telling you as part of your inquiry as a committee. And it became apparent to us that there wasn't unanimity on the way forward, so we started to consider the possibilities of delivering what we wanted to achieve within the current regime. Of course, the legislative pressures because of Brexit haven't helped either. But I do think that it is possible within the current system for us to reach those objectives of a million Welsh speakers. So, we are enhancing the possibilities already available to us.  

Felly, y prif resymau, os wy'n deall yn iawn, dros symud yn hollol o gael Deddf newydd yw'r hyn sydd wedi bod yn dod gerbron y pwyllgor yma, a hefyd pwysau Brexit. Ydy pwysau Brexit yn rhywbeth sydd yn effeithio ar eich portffolio chi yn benodol, gan fod yna Weinidog Brexit gwahanol? 

So, the main reasoning, if I've understood correctly, to move completely from a new Act is what's been coming in front of this committee, and also Brexit pressure. Is Brexit pressure something that has an impact on your portfolio specifically, because there is a Minister for Brexit? 

Na, jest y pwysau deddfwriaethol tu fewn i'r gyfundrefn oll ond, yn fwy na dim, dwi'n meddwl, y ffaith bod y rhanddeiliaid wedi bod yn ei gwneud hi'n glir ein bod ni'n gallu mynd yn bell iawn gyda'r ddeddfwriaeth sydd gyda ni yn bresennol. 

No, it's the legislative pressures within the broader system but, more than anything, I think it's the fact that stakeholders had made it clear that we can go a very long way with the legislation that we currently have. 

Ond mae'n rhaid ichi sylweddoli bod hynny yn newid eithaf syfrdanol o'ch pwynt chi, gan eich bod chi wedi dod yma o'r blaen yn eithaf cryf eich barn bod angen cael Deddf newydd. Mae wedi synnu lot o bobl eich bod chi wedi newid eich barn chi mewn mater o fisoedd. 

But you have to understand that that is quite a significant change from your perspective, as you have been here before quite strong in your opinion that there is a need for a new Act. It has surprised many people that you have changed your view in a matter of months. 

Beth dwi wedi bod yn ei wneud yw trafod gyda'r comisiynydd i edrych eto ar beth sydd ar gael tu fewn i'r gyfundrefn bresennol, a gwthio'r hyn sy'n bosibl, er enghraifft, y ffaith bod hybu a hyrwyddo yn un o flaenoriaethau'r comisiynydd, ond hefyd o ran symleiddio'r ddeddfwriaeth o ran safonau. Roedd hwnna yn rhywbeth roeddwn i'n awyddus iawn i'w wneud. Dwi'n meddwl bod pob un yn deall ei bod hi'n hanfodol ein bod ni'n edrych ar symleiddio'r system o reoleiddio, ond ei bod hi'n bosibl gwneud hynny tu fewn i'r ddeddf bresennol. Ac rŷn ni wedi gofyn am gyngor cyfreithiol i sicrhau ac i wthio'r posibiliadau sydd o fewn y comisiynydd ar hyn o bryd. Ac rŷn ni wedi bod yn trafod hynny â'r comisiynydd, ac wedi bod yn ysgrifennu llythyrau, ac wedi cael arweiniad cyfreithiol, sydd yn tanlinellu'r ffaith ei bod hi efallai yn gallu symud yn gyflymach tuag at sicrhau bod pobl yn cael rhywbeth cyflym—bod yna setliad cyflym—yn hytrach na phethau sy'n cymryd misoedd ar fisoedd, fel sy'n digwydd ar hyn o bryd.

What I've been doing is having discussions with the commissioner in order to review what is available within the current system, and to push the boundaries of that system, for example, the fact that promotion of the language is one of the priorities of the commissioner, but also in terms of simplifying the legislation in relation to standards. That was something that I was very eager to do. I think that everyone understands that it's crucial that we do seek to simplify the regulatory system, but that it's possible to do that within the current legislation. And we've asked for legal advice in order to ensure that we push the boundaries available to the commissioner at the moment. And we have been discussing that with the commissioner, and have been in correspondence with her, and have sought legal advice, which underlines the fact that she could perhaps move more swiftly in ensuring that the system is streamlined and that matters are dealt with swiftly, rather than things taking months and months, as is currently the case.

09:35

Bydd Aelodau yn gofyn cwestiynau ynglŷn â'r mater yma, ond roeddwn i eisiau gofyn—dŷn ni wedi cael e-byst yn y dyddiau diwethaf yn dweud bod rhywfaint o'ch tystiolaeth chi yn edrych fel pe baech chi'n gorfodi'r comisiynydd i weithredu mewn ffordd na ddylech chi fod yn rhoi pwysau arnyn nhw. Er enghraifft, mae telerau ar waith—er enghraifft, byddech chi'n rhoi efallai mwy o gyllideb iddyn nhw os bydden nhw'n rhoi mwy o emphasis ar hybu a hyrwyddo, a'u bod nhw yn cael corff llywodraethu i gefnogi y comisiynydd. Ydych chi'n credu mai'ch lle chi yw rhoi'r telerau hynny gerbron, ar sail y gyllideb ychwanegol? Os nad ydyn nhw'n gwneud y pethau yma sydd yn y papur dŷch chi wedi ei roi i ni, beth fydd yn digwydd, er enghraifft?

Members will have questions on this issue, but I wanted to ask—we've had e-mails in the past few days saying that some of your evidence looks as if you would force the commissioner to operate in a way that you shouldn't be placing pressure on them. For example, there are terms—for example, that you would perhaps give them more of a budget if they placed more emphasis on promotion work, that they would have a governing body to support the commissioner. Do you think that it's your role to provide those terms, on the basis of an additional budget? If they don't do these things that are in the paper that you've provided to us, what will happen, for example?

Wel, mae'n rhaid i fi danlinellu fy mod i'n gweld bod y comisiynydd yn annibynnol, ac mae'n hollbwysig bod y comisiynydd yn cadw'r annibyniaeth yna, yn sicr o ran rheoleiddio.

Well, I have to underline the fact that I understand that the commissioner is independent, and it's crucial that the commissioner retains that independence, certainly in terms of regulation.

Ond dŷch chi'n defnyddio'r gair 'amodau' yn y papur. Dyw hwnna ddim yn swnio fel rhywbeth—fel eu bod nhw'n annibynnol.

But you use the word 'conditions' in the paper. That doesn't sound particularly independent.

Allaf i orffen? O ran rheoleiddio, dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna'n rili bwysig. O ran hybu a hyrwyddo, y prif bwynt roeddwn i'n ei wneud yn y Papur Gwyn oedd i ddweud bod angen inni newid y pwyslais i fod ar hybu a hyrwyddo. A dyma'r prif nod sydd yn y Mesur, bod angen i'r comisiynydd hybu a hyrwyddo. Ac rŷn ni'n meddwl—rŷn ni'n dal i feddwl—bod y pwyslais ar hyn o bryd yn ormodol ar y safonau a rheoleiddio, ar draul yr adnoddau a allai fod yn mynd i mewn i hybu a hyrwyddo. A beth rŷn ni eisiau ei weld yw balans gwell. Ac wrth gwrs bydd yna drafodaethau yn mynd ymlaen nawr gyda'r comisiynydd. Mae lot o'r gwaith yma—achos ein bod ni'n pryderu efallai nad oedd y gwaith yna yn cael ei wneud gan y comisiynydd ar hyn o bryd, mae'r gwaith yna yn cael ei wneud nawr gan y Llywodraeth. Nawr, dwi ddim yn meddwl o reidrwydd mai'r Llywodraeth yw'r lle cywir i wneud peth o'r gwaith yna; byddwn i'n lico rhoi peth o'r gwaith yna i'r comisiynydd, ond mae'n rhaid inni fod yn fwy hyderus y byddai'r pwyslais yna yn newid.

May I finish? In terms of regulation, I think that's crucially important. In terms of promotion, the main point that I was making in the White Paper was that we needed to change the emphasis, so that it is on promotion. And that is the main aim of the Measure, namely that the commissioner needs to be involved with promotion. And we believe, and we still believe, that the emphasis at the moment is too biased towards regulation, at the expense of resources that could be being invested into promotion. And what we want to see is a better balance struck. And of course there will be some discussions with the commissioner. Much of this work—because we were concerned that that work wasn't being done by the commissioner, then that work is being undertaken by the Government. Now, I don't necessarily think that the Government is the right body to do some of that work, and I would like to transfer some of those responsibilities to the commissioner, but we have to be more confident that that emphasis would change.

Ond byddan nhw'n dadlau y byddai hynny'n ddibynnol ar gael cyllideb ddigonol i wneud hynny. Felly, pam ydych chi'n rhoi yr amod yma arnyn nhw i weithredu yn y modd dŷch chi yn ei benderfynu? Os oes angen gwneud rheoliadau, dylai rhywun annibynnol, fel y comisiynydd, gael rhwydd hynt i benderfynu ai rheoliadau maen nhw'n eu gwneud, neu hyrwyddo neu hwyluso'r Gymraeg.

But they would argue that that is reliant on having a sufficient budget to do so. So, why are you putting this condition on them to operate in a way that you decide? If there is a need to make regulations, then somebody independent, such as the commissioner, should be able to decide on whether they are working on those regulations, or whether they should be promoting or not.

Wel, byddwch chi'n gweld hefyd yn y papur mai un o'r problemau sydd gyda ni yw bod safonau gyda ni, bod rheoliadau gyda ni. Ond y drafferth yw, mae defnydd o'r iaith Gymraeg, unwaith rŷn ni'n rhoi safonau mewn, yn isel dros ben, ac felly rŷn ni eisiau gweld y comisiynydd yn gwneud lot mwy o waith, nid jest bod yn blismon, ond yn helpu'r mudiadau yma i sicrhau bod y defnydd yn cynyddu. Ac rŷn ni o'r farn y gallai mwy o waith gael ei wneud yn y maes yna.

Well, you will also see from our paper that one of the problems we have is that we have standards in place, and we have regulations. But the problem is that the use of the Welsh language, once we impose standards, is very low, and what we want to see is the commissioner doing a lot more work, not simply policing the matters, but also assisting these bodies and organisations to ensure that the use of the Welsh language increases. And we're of the view that more work could be done in that area.

Bore da. Dwi'n sylwi, yn eich tystiolaeth chi, eich bod chi'n nodi mai hanfod y cynigion yn y Papur Gwyn oedd dyhead i symleiddio'r system safonau, a dwi'n meddwl y byddai pawb yn cyd-fynd efo hynna. Mae hi wedi dod yn amlwg erbyn hyn nad oes angen deddfwriaeth i wneud hynny, felly doedd dim angen deddfwriaeth ar gyfer symud i'r cyfeiriad yna. Ac wedyn yr ail ran oedd sefydlu strwythurau addas ar gyfer cyflawni Cymraeg 2050. A dwi'n meddwl bod y rhanddeiliaid sydd wedi ymateb yn negyddol i'r Papur Gwyn yn dal yn teimlo bod angen strwythur addas ar gyfer hyrwyddo a hybu'r Gymraeg, ond taw ddim beth oedd yn y Papur Gwyn oedd y ffordd orau ymlaen, oherwydd roedd hwnna'n mynd i wanio swyddogaeth Comisiynydd y Gymraeg a'r safonau ac yn y blaen. Ac dŷn ni'n falch o weld bod hynny'n parhau. Ond, ar y pwynt yma, onid ydy'r ddadl am sefydlu rhyw fath o strwythur addas ar gyfer gwneud y gwaith hybu a hyrwyddo, yn hytrach na'i roi o i'r comisiynydd, yn dal yn ddadl ddilys ar y pwynt yma: strwythur arall, nid jest i wneud y gwaith hybu a hyrwyddo, ond i wneud y gwaith cynllunio ieithyddol ac yn blaen—asiantaeth neu beth bynnag—sef beth oedd gwraidd y £5 miliwn yma a gytunwyd rhwng y Llywodraeth a Plaid Cymru dwy flynedd yn ôl? Dyna oedd y drafodaeth bryd hynny. Mae hwnna i gyd wedi mynd am ychydig—iawn; dŷn ni lle rydyn ni. Oes yna gyfle rŵan i gael y drafodaeth ehangach yna ynteu—? Dŷch chi, yn amlwg, yn teimlo bod symud pethau i swyddfa'r comisiynydd ydy'r ffordd orau ymlaen.

Good morning. I notice in your evidence that you note that the core of these proposals is the desire to simplify the system, and I think everybody would agree with that. It's become clear by now that there is no need for legislation to do that, so there was no need for legislation for moving in that direction. And then the second part was establishing appropriate structures for achieving Cymraeg 2050. And I think that the stakeholders who've responded negatively to the White Paper still feel that there is a need for a suitable structure for promoting the Welsh language, but that what was in the White Paper was not the best way to move forward, because that was going to weaken the functions of the Welsh Language Commissioner and the standards and so forth. And we're pleased to see that that is going to continue. However, at this point, isn't the argument about establishing some sort of suitable structure for the promotion work, rather than giving it to the commissioner, still a valid argument: another structure, not just to do the promotional work, but also to do the language planning work—an agency or whatever—which really was the basis of this £5 million agreed between Plaid Cymru and the Government two years ago? That was the discussion at the time. All of that has gone for a while—okay; we are where we are. Is there an opportunity now to have that wider discussion or—? You, clearly, feel that moving things to the commissioner's office is the best way forward.

09:40

Wel, mae yna ddau brif bwynt fanna. Yr un cyntaf yw: dwi yn meddwl bod angen inni sicrhau ein bod ni'n edrych ar gynllunio ieithyddol yn ei gyfanrwydd ac rŷn ni eisoes wedi dechrau cael trafodaethau gyda'r cyngor partneriaeth a dwi wedi gofyn i'm swyddogion i ddod lan â syniadau ynglŷn â'r ffordd ymlaen o ran cynllunio ieithyddol. Bydd yn rhaid inni edrych ar y lle gorau i hynny fod, achos dwi'n meddwl bod yna ddadl y dylai hwnna fod tu fewn i gyfundrefn y Llywodraeth achos bod mwy o access, er enghraifft, ar gyfer addysg a phethau—mae mwy o'r levers gyda ni tu fewn i'r Llywodraeth. Ond dwi'n eithaf hapus i wrando ar bwyntiau eraill, os oes yna bwyntiau eraill ar gael. Ond dwi ddim yn meddwl y byddai'n syniad cael asiantaeth ychwanegol. Dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna'n cymhlethu'r darlun.

Mae eisoes yn ddigon caled i bobl, dwi'n meddwl, fod y Llywodraeth ar gael a'r comisiynydd. Felly, pan dyw cwmnïau tren ddim yn defnyddio'r Gymraeg, er enghraifft, pwy maen nhw'n ffonio? Dwi'n meddwl petasai asiantaeth hefyd, byddai hwnna'n cymhlethu'r darlun. Felly, dŷn ni ddim yn mynd i lawr y trywydd o gael asiantaeth ar gyfer hybu a hyrwyddo. Fe fyddwn ni'n trafod ymhellach nawr ynglŷn â ble'n union dylai hybu a hyrwyddo fod. Mae yna rai rhannau o hybu a hyrwyddo bydd yn rhaid iddyn nhw aros yn y Llywodraeth, ond mae rhai eraill, dwi'n meddwl, y byddai'n gwneud lot mwy o synnwyr os allwn ni eu rhoi nhw i'r comisiynydd, pe byddai'r hyder yna gyda ni na fyddai'r bobl hynny'n cael eu sugno i mewn i fyd rheoleiddio. Wedyn, dwi yn meddwl bod yna bosibilrwydd y gallem ni fynd i lawr y trywydd yna.

Well, there are two main points there. The first is that I do think that we need to ensure that we look at language planning in its entirety and we've already started to have discussions with the partnership council and I have asked my officials to come up with some ideas on the way forward in terms of language planning. We will have to look at where that would sit most comfortably, because I think there's an argument that that should be within Government, because there is more access to education, for example—we hold more of the levers within Government in that sense. But I am quite happy to listen to other views, if there are other views on the issue. But I don't think it would be a good idea to have an additional, separate agency. I think that muddies the waters. 

It is already difficult for people, I think, to understand that you have the Government and the commissioner. So, when the rail companies don't use the Welsh language, who would they contact? I think if you also had an agency that would muddy the waters further. So, we won't go down the route of having a separate agency for promotional work, but we will now be discussing further where exactly promotion and marketing should sit. There are certain aspects of promotion that will have to remain in Government, but there are others that I think it would make much more sense to transfer them to the commissioner, if that were possible and if we had the confidence that those people wouldn't be sucked into regulation. So, I think there is a possibility of going down that route.

Ond dŷch chi ddim yn derbyn y byddai rhoi elfennau o gynllunio ieithyddol—cadw'r elfennau hynny yn y Llywodraeth mewn uned fechan iawn, a wedyn symud rhai elfennau o hybu a hyrwyddo i'r comisiynydd—? Hynna fyddai'n creu'r dryswch. Ar hyn o bryd, i'r cyhoedd, mae'n eithaf clir: os oes gennych chi broblem ynglŷn â'ch hawliau chi fel siaradwyr Cymraeg, dŷch chi'n gwybod eich bod chi'n mynd at y comisiynydd. Mae'n hollol glir; dwi ddim yn meddwl bod yna unrhyw ddryswch ynglŷn â hynna. Ond wedyn mae yna ddryswch ynglŷn â'r holl waith arall pwysig sydd angen hoelio sylw arno fo: y gwaith cynllunio ieithyddol, y gwaith strategol. Os dŷch chi'n mynd i roi ychydig bach o hynna i'r comisiynydd a chadw'r gweddill yn y Llywodraeth—hynny yw, dwi hi ddim yn glir ar hyn o bryd i ba gyfeiriad dŷch chi'n mynd i fynd.

But don't you accept that giving elements of language planning—retaining those elements within the Government in a small unit, and then moving some elements of promotion to the commissioner—? Wouldn't that cause confusion? At the moment, for the public, it is quite clear: if you have a problem regarding your rights as Welsh speakers, you know that you go to the commissioner. It's completely clear; I don't think there's any confusion regarding that. But then there is confusion about all the other important work that needs to be done: the language planning, the strategic work. If you're going to give a little bit of that to the commissioner and keep the rest within the Government—that is, it's not clear at the moment in what direction you're going to go.

A beth dwi wedi gofyn am nawr yw papur i edrych ar yr opsiynau o ran cynllunio ieithyddol a ble yw'r lle gorau i hynny fod. Felly, mi fyddwn ni'n trafod, gyda'r cyngor partneriaeth, ble yw'r lle mwyaf priodol, ond dwi o'r farn ar hyn o bryd bod eithaf lot o'r levers ar gyfer cynllunio ieithyddol yn nwylo'r Llywodraeth ac felly efallai y byddwn ni'n gweld rhyw fath o gyfundrefn tu fewn i'r Llywodraeth sy'n gyfrifol am edrych arno ar draws holl gyfrifoldebau'r Llywodraeth. Ond maen nhw'n ddyddiau cynnar, ac dwi wedi gofyn am bapur arno.

And what I've asked for now is a paper to look at the options in terms of language planning and where that should best sit. So, we will be discussing with the partnership council where the most appropriate place for that is, but I'm of the view at the moment that many of the levers for language planning are held by Government, and so perhaps we will see some sort of system within Government that will look at the issue on a cross-cutting basis. But these are the early days, and I've asked for a paper on it.

Iawn. Onid ydy felly yn gynamserol i ddatgan eich bod chi am symud elfennau sydd yn y Llywodraeth ar hyn o bryd i'r comisiynydd? Oni fyddai’n well gweld beth mae’r papur yma yn ei ddadlau o ran y cynllunio ieithyddol a hyrwyddo, hybu—yr holl waith mawr o gwmpas y strategaeth? Dŷch chi’n ymddangos fel eich bod chi wedi gwneud penderfyniad i symud rhan o’r gwaith yna i’r comisiynydd yn barod, felly, cyn gweld y dystiolaeth.

Okay. Isn't it too early to say, therefore, that you want to move some elements that are in the Government now to the commissioner? Wouldn't it be better to see what this paper argues in terms of the language planning and the promotion work—all the big work around the strategy? It would appear as if you’ve made a decision to move part of that work to the commissioner already, before seeing the evidence.

09:45

Wel, na. Dwi ddim wedi gwneud unrhyw benderfyniad ar ba rannau. Dwi yn meddwl bod yna rhai pethau efallai lle mae’r Llywodraeth yn dda—ar bethau fel polisi, ac ati. Mae yna bethau ymarferol ar lawr gwlad dwi’n meddwl a allai fod yn gweithio’n well tu fas i’r Llywodraeth. So, byddwn ni’n edrych ar ba elfennau. Ond dwi eisiau gweld, a bod yn hyderus, y byddai hynny’n digwydd pe bydden ni yn symud y cyfrifoldeb yna at y comisiynydd.

No. I’ve made no decisions on which parts. I do think there are certain areas where the Government works well, such as policy and so on. There are practical issues on the ground that I think would work better outwith Government. So, we will be looking at those elements. But I want to see, and I want to be confident, that that would happen if we were to shift the responsibility to the commissioner.

Ond dŷch chi ddim yn cau’r drws ar y drafodaeth. Dwi’n falch o glywed hynna.

But you’re not closing the door on that discussion. I’m glad to hear that.

Dwi’n cau’r drws ar y drafodaeth am asiantaeth allanol, ydw—asiantaeth newydd; dwi yn sicr yn cau’r drws ar hynny.

I’m closing the door on the discussion on a separate, external agency, a new agency; I’m certainly closing the door on that.

Iawn? Ocê. David Melding.

Okay? Right. David Melding.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Alun Davies is now able to speak with perhaps greater freedom—

—than he had hitherto. And he said on, I think it was, Sunday Supplement, that the reason a new Act was required is the current legislation has produced a very top-heavy bureaucratic system, which has created a bureaucratic industry but not really supported the language. Now, that’s a very emphatic judgment. So, why have you formed the judgment that either he's completely wrong or the impediments that are in legislation at the moment can be reformed?

I think Alun’s actually right in terms of the complexity of the current system. There are not many people who don’t agree that the complexity of the standards system—. I remember, when I first tried to get to grips with this, I sent 10 pages of questions to these guys just to try and understand. Now, that is not a good, simple structure, and I do think there are opportunities for us to simplify the process. So, we’ve started doing that anyway. So, if you look at the health standards, we’ve reduced the number to about 121 without reducing, actually, the need to change the functionality of what we're trying to achieve there.

So, it is possible to simplify, but I think the method of ensuring that people comply with the rules, I think that is where there is a heavy—where the commissioner at the moment really takes a long time to try and produce results, in particular if you look at the speed with which, for example, the ombudsman is able to resolve situations. So, I think there is a lot the commissioner can do to speed things up, and I think that the legal barn—what's barn—the legal—

—opinion that we’ve had has given her, I hope, a bit of confidence that, actually, she can move quicker with some of the resolutions.

So, we’ve heard that the heart of the matter is that it’s bureaucratic, basically because we have a complaints system that's like no other. It can’t be resolved within—you know, let’s take county councils as the best example. They can’t resolve it within their own complaints process; it involves the commissioner. Now, I sense you’re hinting that that’s the bureaucratic complexity, but that can’t be changed without primary legislation. So, why have you come to this judgment that it is too bureaucratic, but the thing that makes it most bureaucratic we're going to have to leave in statute and not be able to change it?

Because I have since had a discussion with the commissioner about how far we can push within the current framework, and your example of a county council, for example—we think there is a possibility that, actually, it would be possible for the commissioner to say, ‘You need to try and resolve this internally before you come to me’. So, it happens in lots of other spheres. The ombudsman has that system. We think that the tribunal’s suggestions, recommendations, in the past suggest that, actually, they could go much, much further in terms of speeding up the system.

09:50

I mean, what you've described is certainly the standard model and the optimum one, I would have thought, in nearly all instances, but it's not the statutory basis in the current legislation, as far as I read it. I think it'll be interesting because we're actually doing post-legislative scrutiny of the 2011 Measure, and we should remember that. It's something that we could reasonably look at. I don't particularly want a ding-dong argument about whether you're right or it can be done, but it's an interesting question and needs our examination as well, I think. 

You can look at this two ways. You've decided to pull the legislation after the consultation responses you've had so far to the White Paper. I think it's fair to say the balance of our evidence was cautious on whether we needed a new Act. I don't particularly want a Government that's so obdurate that they won't respond to evidence. I suppose a White Paper is fairly advanced in the process, so I just wonder what the costs have been in terms of developing your legislative proposals and the White Paper? Is some of that going to be recycled into other policy development or have we seen a fair amount of money being wasted in this decision initially to have a new Act and then to move in a different direction?

I don't think that it's been a waste of money, in the sense that I think we've had a very comprehensive debate in the country and I think there is agreement now that actually we do need to work more towards encouraging the use of Welsh rather than on regulations. There seems to be, and my understanding is, from the evidence you've had in this committee, that that is something that people do agree on. So, I don't think it's been a waste, because I don't think we'd have moved much further on without that debate, so I don't accept that it's been a waste. Certainly, politically, I think we've moved the agenda forward quite significantly as a result of the White Paper. Perhaps I can ask Bethan to talk a little bit about the resources.

The resources: we had four members of staff working both on the standards and the Bill, so it wasn't resource heavy. And all that policy, as the Minister says, is part of the strategic picture in terms of Cymraeg 2050. And a lot of the findings, when we were doing the policy work, have fed into other fields as well. Since the White Paper, from a personal perspective, we have worked much closer with the Welsh Language Commissioner's office, especially on certain aspects. Of course, not the regulatory side, but Cymraeg Byd Busnes, which my division leads on, has worked really effectively with the four business officers in the Welsh Language Commissioner's office. So, it has opened the doors to other possibilities, as the Minister has already stated. 

Just the other thing on standards, we will now pick up the standards for other—

Diolch. Dwi jest eisiau cario ymlaen yn fras gyda beth oedd David yn dweud o ran y ddeddfwriaeth. Jest i gadarnhau ar y record, a oedd yna amserlen benodol o fewn yr amserlen ddeddfwriaethol ar gyfer hwn? Achos pan wyf wedi gofyn yn y gorffennol, nid wyf wedi cael amserlen glir, ond yn ôl y cyn-Weinidog, Alun Davies—roedd e'n dweud bod yna amserlen ddeddfwriaeth. Felly, ydych chi'n mynd i ddefnyddio'r slot yna ar gyfer chi? Hynny yw, a fyddwch chi'n dod â deddfwriaeth arall gerbron yn eich portffolio chi, neu a fydd y slot hynny yn mynd at rywbeth arall o fewn y Llywodraeth? Jest er mwyn i ni gadarnhau.

Thank you. I just want to continue broadly with what David was saying in terms of legislation. Just to confirm on the record, was there a specific timetable within the legislative time frame for this? Because when I've asked in the past, I haven't had a clear timescale, but according to the former Minister, Alun Davies—he said there was a legislative timetable. So, are you going to use that slot for you? That is, are you going to bring other legislation in your portfolio, or will that slot go to something else within the Government? Just for us to confirm.

Wel, mae Brexit yn taflu popeth i'r awyr, felly does neb yn gwybod yn union beth fydd y rhaglen ddeddfwriaethol yn edrych fel. Felly, mae’n rhaid inni fod yn ofalus, ond beth fyddwn ni'n gwneud yw bwrw ymlaen â rhai o'r safonau ar gyfer y cyrff eraill oedd gyda ni mewn golwg, felly—

Well, Brexit has thrown everything up into the air. Nobody knows exactly what the legislative programme will look like. So, we have to be cautious, but what we will do is to proceed with some of the standards for the other organisations that we had in mind, so—

So, mae pob rhan o ddeddfwriaeth y Llywodraeth ar hyn o bryd yn y fantol yn sgil Brexit. 

So, every part of Government's legislation is being affected as a result of Brexit.

Yn sicr. Dydyn ni ddim yn gwybod y sefyllfa ar hyn o bryd, felly mae'n anodd i fi ddweud yn sicr y byddwn ni'n cadw'r slot yna, achos dwi ddim yn meddwl bod neb yn y Llywodraeth ar hyn o bryd yn gallu bod yn hollol eglur ynglŷn â sut bydd Brexit yn cael effaith ar y rhaglen ddeddfwriaethol.

Without a doubt. We don't know what the situation is at the moment, so it's difficult for me to say with certainty that we will be retaining that slot, because I don't think that anyone in Government at the moment can be entirely clear as to how Brexit will impact the legislative programme.

09:55

Thank you, Chair. Minister, you've been consistent, both in you evidence here this morning and in the wider sphere, about the importance of promoting the language. Now, that's a lot easier to do in the public sector than the private sector. So, I just wondered if you could expand for us—. I know in your statement you've noted that you're going to continue to consult closely with private bodies, such as banks and supermarkets, to try and get them to provide more services more consistently in Welsh. Just how difficult is that? And can you expand for us on the work that you're doing there? 

The responsibility for the banks and supermarkets in particular is with the Welsh Language Commissioner. So, I've corresponded with her, and asked what steps are happening. She's having a meeting in London soon, because part of the problem is that actually the banks and supermarkets are run generally from London, and to try and get them to understand the sensitivity is very difficult, and the people who are in Wales are not the people who can make the decisions on some of these issues. So, I think that's a very sensible move, and that will be happening I think within the next month or so.

There has been a lot of movement by some supermarkets. I'm a big believer that, actually, a lot of this we can do with the nudge approach. So, ironically, the best companies are actually the foreign companies that have come to Wales. You think about Aldi and Lidl—their policies on the Welsh language are much better than some others. So, I think we've got to encourage, praise and thank, where that's possible.

The banks—one of the issues with the banks is that actually, today, people use technology to access banks. So, one of the things that we're working on is how we can help with developing technology that uses the Welsh language, and Jeremy is an expert in this. Would you like to say a few words?  

Well, lots of bank systems are based on legacy systems, which are very hard to change. So, with a product refresh cycle, if something new comes it's much easier to put things in than retrofit stuff to old systems. Voice banking—banking by voice—we're working to create speech synthesis, speech recognition components, which we can give free of charge to anyone who wants to use them, really. We're building the infrastructural blocks that these companies can use. 

Os ydy'r nudge approach ddim yn gweithio, fyddwch chi'n ystyried efallai bydd angen dod â deddfwriaeth newydd i mewn yn benodol ynglŷn â'r sector breifat—i'r dyfodol? 

If the nudge approach doesn't work, will you consider perhaps that there will be a need to bring in new legislation specifically regarding the private sector—for the future?

Rhan o'r broblem gyda pheidio â chael Bil yw ein bod ni'n colli'r cyfle i wneud hynny ar gyfer y banciau a'r archfarchnadoedd. Felly, mae peidio â chael y Bil wedi creu'r broblem yna. 

Part of the problem with not having a Bill is that we lose the opportunity to do that in terms of the banks and supermarkets. So, the withdrawal of the Bill has created that problem. 

Ond mae modd cael Bil lot symlach jest ar y mater yna?

But there is a way of getting a much simpler Bill just in that regard.

Wel, dwi ddim eisiau gwneud—

Well, I don't want to make— 

Wel, gawn ni weld sut mae pethau'n gweithredu. Un o'r problemau sydd gyda ni yw os ydyn nhw'n dod yn ôl aton ni ac yn edrych ar yr hyn sydd wedi digwydd yn y sector cyhoeddus, ble ŷn ni wedi gofyn i'r sector cyhoeddus i ddod â'r pethau yma mewn, ac maen nhw'n edrych ar, er enghraifft, beth sy'n digwydd yng Nghyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr, lle mae 9 y cant yn siarad Cymraeg ond 0.01 y cant yn defnyddio'r gwasanaethFootnoteLink, mae e'n anodd i ni werthu'r angen i wneud hynny i'r sector preifat. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod rhaid i ni ofyn i'r comisiynydd i wneud lot fwy ynglŷn â defnydd o'r gwasanaethau. Dwi yn meddwl ei fod yn rili, rili anodd. Dyna'r ateb dwi wedi cael nôl yn aml iawn. Mae'r cwmnïau sydd eisoes yn gwneud pethau yn y sector preifat, sydd yn darparu gwasanaeth—dyw siaradwyr Cymraeg ddim yn defnyddio'r gwasanaeth. Dwi yn meddwl bod yna gyfrifoldeb ar siaradwyr Cymraeg i ddefnyddio'r gwasanaethau. Ar hyn o bryd, dŷn nhw ddim yn gwneud hynny.

Well, we will see how things develop. One of the problems that we have is that if they come back to us and look at what's happening in the public sector, where we've asked the public sector to introduce these things, and they look, for example, at what's happening in Bridgend County Borough Council, where 9 per cent speak Welsh but 0.01 per cent use the serviceFootnoteLink, then it's difficult for us to sell the need to do that within the private sector. So, I do think that we do have to ask the commissioner to do a lot more in terms of the use and the uptake of those services. I do think that it's very, very difficult. That's the response I get back very often. The companies who are already doing things in the private sector and already providing services—Welsh speakers aren't making use of those services. I do think there is a responsibility on Welsh speakers to make use of those services. At the moment, they're not doing so.  

Iawn, diolch. Carwyn Jones. 

Okay, thank you. Carwyn Jones. 

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Weinidog, bore da. Mae yna ddau gwestiwn gen i. Os gallaf ofyn yr un cyntaf, sy'n dilyn ymlaen ar beth rŷm ni wedi bod yn ei drafod yn barod, sef deddfwriaeth. Rŷch chi wedi dweud, wrth gwrs, ei fod yn rhy gynnar i wella deddfwriaeth ar hyn o bryd, ond ydych chi o'r farn y bydd eisiau deddfwriaeth yn y tymor hir? 

Thank you, Chair. Minister, good morning. I have two questions. If I could ask the first one, which follows on from what we have been discussing already, which is legislation. You've said, of course, that it's too early to improve legislation at the moment, but are you of the view that legislation will be required in the longer term? 

Wel, mae'n bosibl—mae'n bosibl y bydd angen deddfwriaeth yn y tymor hir, ond dwi ddim yn meddwl mai nawr yw'r amser i ni edrych ar hynny. Dwi o'r farn bod rhaid i ni weld gwell defnydd o'r hyn sydd wedi'i ddarparu eisoes cyn ein bod ni'n mynd ymhellach. Dwi o'r farn, pan mae'n dod i ddiwylliant ac iaith, allwch chi ond mynd mor bell gyda deddfwriaeth. Ond y ffaith yw, mae newid diwylliant yn anodd dros ben, ac mae ffon ond yn mynd i fynd â chi mor bell—mae'n rhaid i chi ddefnyddio'r foronen. Dwi ddim yn meddwl ein bod ni wedi gwneud digon o ddefnydd o'r foronen eto.

Well, it's possible—it's possible that legislation may be required in the longer term, but I don't think that now is the time for us to be looking at that issue. I am of the view that we had to see better use made of what's already available before we go further. I am of the view that when it comes to language and culture, you can only go so far with legislation. But the fact is, a culture shift is very difficult to achieve, and the stick will only take you so far—you do have to use the carrot as well. And I don't think that we have made sufficient use of the carrot yet.

10:00

I ddelio, felly, gyda'r cwestion o ddefnydd—rwy'n cytuno'n hollol ynglŷn â'r ffaith bod ishe sicrhau mwy o ddefnydd o'r iaith. Un ffordd i helpu i wneud hynny—nid ateb cyfan gwbl yw hwn, wrth gwrs—yw sicrhau bod mwy o blant yn mynd i ysgolion Cymraeg, ac, wrth gwrs, mae'r targed o filiwn o siaradwyr erbyn 2050. Gobeithio y byddaf i yma i'w weld e. Mae hynny'n dal i fod yn darged i'r Llywodraeth. Mae yna dystiolaeth wedi dod o flaen y pwyllgor, fel dwi'n deall, gan rai sy'n dweud dylai fod yna hawl statudol i addysg Gymraeg ar draws Cymru. Beth yw'ch barn chi ynglŷn â hynny—ynglŷn ag, efallai, pa mor ymarferol y byddai hynny? Ac yn ail, a fyddai eisiau cael Deddf er mwyn sicrhau bod yr hawl hynny yn cael ei weithredu ar draws Cymru?

To deal, therefore, with the issue of use—I agree that we need to ensure more use of the language. One way of assisting that—not a complete solution, of course—is to ensure that more children go to Welsh-medium schools, and, of course, there is a target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050. I hope I'll be here to see that target. That is still a target for the Government. Evidence has come before the committee, I understand, from some who say that there should be a statutory right to Welsh-medium education across Wales. What is your view on that—on, perhaps, how practical would that be? And, secondly, would there be a need, therefore, for an Act to ensure that that right is available across Wales?

Dwi ddim yn meddwl bod angen cael deddfwriaeth unigryw ar gyfer addysg Gymraeg. Os ŷch chi'n edrych ar y gwaith mae Kirsty Williams yn ei wneud o ran y cwricwlwm, beth sy'n digwydd fanna yw ein bod ni'n sicrhau bod y Gymraeg yn rhan allweddol o ddatblygu'r cwricwlwm ar draws Cymru, felly mae'n rhan greiddiol o'r hyn sy'n cael ei ddatblygu. Ac mae'r ffaith ein bod ni nawr yn edrych ar gontinwwm ieithyddol yn helpu yn y broses yna. Felly, dwi ddim o'r farn y dylen ni gael deddfwriaeth unigryw ar gyfer addysg Gymraeg. Ond beth sy'n bwysig i fi—. Mae tua 20 y cant o blant yn mynd i ysgolion Cymraeg ar hyn o bryd. Rŷm ni eisiau gweld cynnydd. Felly, erbyn 2050, mae eisiau i ni gael 40 y cant o'n plant ni yn mynd i ysgolion Cymraeg. Felly, i fi beth sy'n bwysig yw ein bod ni'n deall bod y plant sydd yn yr ysgol heddiw—bod rhaid i ni gael lot ohonyn nhw yn anfon eu plant nhw i ysgolion Cymraeg, a bod yr agwedd sydd ganddyn nhw tuag at yr iaith Gymraeg yn cael ei ddatblygu nawr. Ac mae'r ffordd rŷm ni'n dysgu Cymraeg mewn ysgolion di-Gymraeg—mae'n rhaid i ni newid hynny. Ac rŷm ni'n gwneud lot o waith i dreial sicrhau ein bod ni jest yn gwneud hynny i fod yn well profiad iddyn nhw. Ac mae pethau fel mynd i Langrannog, Dydd Miwsig Cymru—mae'r holl bethau yna yn creu cynnwrf o gwmpas yr iaith dwi'n meddwl sy'n angenrheidiol os ŷm ni ishe i'r plant hynny anfon eu plant nhw i ysgolion Cymraeg yn y dyfodol.

I don't think that we need distinct legislation for Welsh-medium education. If you look at the work that Kirsty Williams is doing on the curriculum, what's happening there is that we are ensuring that the Welsh language is a key part of developing the curriculum across Wales, so it is a central part of what is being developed. And the fact that we are now looking at a language continuum helps with that process. So, I'm not of the view that we should have distinct legislation for Welsh-medium education. But what's important to me is—. Around 20 per cent of children go to Welsh-medium schools at the moment. We want to see an increase on that number. So, by 2050, we need to ensure that 40 per cent of our children are attending Welsh-medium schools. So, what's important for me is that we understand that the children in school today—we must ensure that many of those choose to send their children to Welsh-medium education and that their attitude towards the Welsh language is being developed now. And the way we teach Welsh in English-medium schools has to change. And we are doing a great deal of work to try to ensure that we are making that a better experience for those pupils. And things like going to Llangrannog, Welsh Language Music Day—all of those things create an excitement around the language that I think is crucial if we want those pupils to choose to send their children to Welsh-medium education in the future.

Thank you, Chair. Good morning. You've been very clear that you're determined to simplify the system in relation to standards, and we've had evidence from bodies that it's bureaucratic and complex. You touched on this in a response to David Melding earlier, but how do you think the issue would be addressed without legislation?

So, we've already started that process of simplification with the health standards. I think the standards are part of it, but it's more the kind of heavy-handed, long-term issue in terms of resolving problems. So, if somebody sees that something in Welsh has been misspelt, and that you see a complaint going to the commissioner—that could take months to resolve itself. I just think that is just simply not going to help us in reaching a million speakers. So, how do we resolve those small little problems very quickly? I think we can see a lot of that being done internally. If you look at what the tribunals have suggested is possible, and this is the point we've been making to the commissioner—that the tribunals have been clear that you can resolve this much quicker and in a more simplified form, and that that process should be helped. So, obviously, we've been speaking also to the current commissioner and the prospective commissioner about how we can simplify that process and how we can speed up the process. So, they're looking at—. We've had some legal advice and they have now taken their own legal advice. So, hopefully, we will see some movement in that area.

10:05

Diolch. Roeddwn i jest eisiau mynd nôl at rywbeth yr oedd Bethan Webb wedi dweud yn gynharach ynglŷn â'r berthynas gyda'r comisiynydd. Pam wnaeth hi gymryd y Papur Gwyn i gael mwy o drafodaethau gyda'r comisiynydd? Pam nad oedd y pethau hyn yn gallu digwydd cyn bod Papur Gwyn yn dod i'r golwg? Oedd yna broblem o ran y cyfathrebu rhwng y Llywodraeth a'r comisiynydd, neu beth oedd e wedi cymryd i newid neu i wella'r berthynas yn hynny o beth?

Thank you. I just wanted to go back to something that Bethan Webb said earlier about the relationship with the commissioner. Why did it need a White Paper to have a relationship that would allow more discussion with the commissioner? Why couldn't these things happen before a White Paper appeared? Was there a problem in terms of communication with the Government and the commissioner, or what did it take to change or to improve that relationship in that regard?

Wel, dwi yn meddwl bod angen gwella'r berthynas rhwng Llywodraeth Cymru a'r comisiynydd, a dwi nawr wedi cymryd mesurau i sicrhau ein bod ni'n gwella'r ffordd o weithredu. Felly, dwi wedi siarad gyda swyddfa'r comisiynydd a dwi wedi siarad gyda'r adran i weld beth allwn ni ei wneud i wella. Mae'n rhaid i ni gydweithredu—

Well, I do think that we need to improve the relationship between the Welsh Government and the commissioner, and I have now taken steps to ensure that we do improve ways of working. So, I've spoken to the commissioner's office and I've spoken to the department to see how we can make improvements. We have to collaborate—

Doedd yna ddim cydweithredu o'r blaen, neu—?

Wasn't there collaboration, previously?

Roedd yna gydweithredu, a dwi'n meddwl bod Bethan Webb wedi'i gwneud yn glir bod lot o waith yn cael ei wneud ar rai lefelau, ond dwi'n meddwl, o ran y big picture, fod rhaid inni sicrhau ein bod ni i gyd yn symud i'r un cyfeiriad. Dwi'n meddwl bod yna gyfle nawr, gyda chomisiynydd newydd, i ni agor tudalen newydd ar y berthynas yna. 

There was collaboration in the past, and I think Bethan Webb made it clear that there was a great deal of work being done at some levels, but I do think, in terms of the big picture, that we do have to ensure that we're all moving in the same direction. I think there's an opportunity now, with a new commissioner, for us to turn to a new page in this relationship.

Ai dyna beth yw e—personoliaethau'n fwy na dim byd arall?

Is it about personalities more than anything, then?

Na. Dwi yn meddwl bod rhan o'r diwylliant wedi bod yn un a oedd yn edrych jest ar reoleiddio a'u bod nhw'n gweld bod eu cyfrifoldeb nhw'n pwysleisio'r angen i reoleiddio yn hytrach na hybu a hyrwyddo. Dwi'n meddwl bod y drafodaeth sydd wedi bod yn sgil y Papur Gwyn yn golygu eu bod nhw hefyd yn gweld bod y boblogaeth yn keen i weld newid o ran hybu a hyrwyddo.

No. I do think that part of the culture was simply to focus on regulations, and they saw their responsibility as having an emphasis on regulation rather than on promotion. I think the discussion that has occurred in light of the White Paper means that they also now realise that people are keen to see a change in terms of promotion.

Diolch. Roedd Bethan Webb eisiau dod i mewn.

Thank you. Bethan Webb wanted to come in.

Ie, jest i ddweud roedd yn rhaid inni fod yn ofalus—. Ar gychwyn fy nhaith i yn yr adran, wrth gwrs, roedden ni'n ysgrifennu'r safonau a oedd yn mynd i gael eu gosod, maes o law, ar Lywodraeth Cymru. Felly, roedd yn rhaid inni fod yn ofalus iawn sut roedden ni'n cydweithredu yn y cyfnod hwnnw, a hefyd yn y cyfnod gorfodi, a oedd yn chwe mis i flwyddyn, pan oedden nhw'n gwneud eu swyddogaethau rheoleiddio. Felly, roedd gennym ni berthynas weithredol dda, wrth gwrs, ond mae'n haws, rŵan, gweithio mewn partneriaeth achos bod y cyfnod yna drosodd o ran y gorfodi a gosod y safonau. Felly, rŵan, maen nhw'n gallu cefnogi'r Llywodraeth hyd yn oed, o ran gweithredu'r safonau mewnol.

Yes, just to say, we had to be careful—. At the beginning of my journey in the department, of course, we were writing the standards that were going to be applied to the Welsh Government, so we had to be very careful with how we were collaborating at that time, and also during the enforcement stage, which was six months to a year, when they were doing their regulatory functions. So, there was a good relationship, of course, but it's easier now to work in partnership because that period has come to an end in terms of the enforcement and setting the standards. They can now support the Government, even, in terms of implementing the internal standards.

Ond, mae hynny'n wir ohonyn nhw, hefyd, achos dŷch chi'n dweud bod angen llai o ffocws ar reoleiddio, ond yr holl bwynt ohonyn nhw'n ffocysu ar reoleiddio oedd ei bod yn system newydd a bod angen rhoi hynny yn ei lle. Byddai'n naturiol nawr fod mwy o amser iddyn nhw allu gwneud y gwaith hyrwyddo nad oedden nhw, efallai, yn gallu gwneud cymaint ohono ar gychwyn y daith yma.

But, that's true of them, too, isn't it, because you say that less focus is needed on regulation, but the whole point of focusing on regulation was that it was a new system that needed to be put in place. It would be natural, now, that they would have more time to do that promotion work that they perhaps couldn't do at the beginning of this journey.

Wel, buaswn i'n licio meddwl hynny, a byddwn ni'n edrych ymlaen nawr i weld tystiolaeth bod hynny'n newid.

Well, I'd like to think so, and we will now look forward to seeing evidence that that change is happening.

Diolch. Dŷch chi wedi sôn am y diffyg defnydd o'r gwasanaethau Cymraeg, a dwi'n cytuno'n llwyr efo chi; mae angen i ni, fel Cymry Cymraeg, wneud mwy o ddefnydd ohonyn nhw. Ond, un agwedd bositif ar gyflwyno'r safonau dŷn ni efallai ddim yn rhoi digon o bwyslais arni ydy'r newid diwylliant sydd yn gallu digwydd o fewn y sefydliad ei hun. Mae hynny, yn ei dro, yn gallu ei gwneud hi lot yn haws i gyrraedd y filiwn o siaradwyr.

Hefyd, beth dŷn ni ddim, efallai, yn rhoi digon o bwyslais arno fo ydy bod y safonau'n creu gweithlu Cymraeg o fewn rhai o'r sefydliadau. Hynny yw, maen nhw'n crynhoi siaradwyr Cymraeg at ei gilydd, ac mae honna'n agwedd bositif o'r safonau. Buaswn i'n hoffi gwybod a ydych chi— . Rydych chi wedi bod yn casglu data ynglŷn â defnydd gan y cyhoedd. A oes yna ddata'n dangos y cynnydd mewn gweithluoedd sydd yn gallu siarad Cymraeg? Dwi'n meddwl, efallai, ei bod hi'n bwysig casglu'r data hynny hefyd a gweld agwedd bositif y safonau o ran hynny.

Mae yna ddwy flynedd a hanner wedi bod, rŵan, lle mae'r safonau wedi bod ar stop, felly dyw'r agwedd yna o allu newid diwylliant sefydliadau ddim wedi bod yn digwydd, a dwi'n siŵr eich bod chi'n cytuno ei bod hi'n bryd mynd yn ôl at hynny rŵan.

Thank you. You've mentioned the lack of use of Welsh-language services, and I totally agree with you; there is a need for us, as Welsh speakers, to make more use of them. But, one positive aspect of introducing the standards that perhaps we're not placing enough emphasis on is the change of culture that can happen within an organisation itself. And that, in turn, can make it must easier to reach the million Welsh speakers.

Also, what we're not perhaps emphasising enough is the fact that the standards create a Welsh-speaking workforce within some of the organisations. They bring Welsh speakers together, and that is a positive aspect of the standards. I would like to know—. You have been collecting data on the use made by the public. Are there data that show the increase in workforces that can speak Welsh? I think perhaps it's important to collect those data as well and to see the positive impact of the standards in that regard. 

Two and a half years have passed now since the standards have come to a halt, so that aspect of being able to change the culture of organisations hasn't been happening, and I'm sure you'd agree that it's time to go back to that now.

10:10

Wel, dwi yn cytuno. Dwi'n meddwl bod y safonau wedi newid y diwylliant tu mewn i lot o fudiadau, a dwi'n meddwl bod hynny wedi dod yn glir yn y dystiolaeth rŷch chi wedi ei chlywed yn y pwyllgor. Un o'r problemau sydd gyda ni yw beth ŷn ni ddim wedi cael o'r comisiynydd, sef ystadegau am ddefnydd. Felly, pan fyddwn ni'n cael adroddiad sicrwydd o'r comisiynydd, dŷn ni ddim wedi cael unrhyw ystadegau ar ddefnydd o'r mesurau sydd ar gael, o'r gwasanaethau sydd ar gael. Felly, mae'r ystadegau sydd gyda chi o'ch blaenau chi fan hyn, dŷn nhw ddim wedi dod o'r comisiynydd; mae'r rhain wedi dod o lywodraeth leol. Felly, mae hwnna'n un o'r pethau y byddwn i'n licio ei weld yn y dyfodol, achos nid ein gwaith ni yw edrych ar faint o ddefnydd sydd—gwaith y comisiynydd yw hwnna, a beth ŷn ni ddim wedi cael yw'r wybodaeth yna yn y gorffennol. Felly, hoffwn i weld hynny yn newid. Dwi'n gobeithio, yn yr adroddiad sicrwydd a gawn ni yn y dyfodol, y bydd yna well ddarlun o'r defnydd. Ond dwi'n dod nôl at y pwynt yma: os nad ŷm ni yn gallu darbwyllo pobl i ddefnyddio'r gwasanaethau yma—ac rŷch chi'n iawn o ran creu gweithlu, ond rŷm ni'n dod at y pwynt nawr lle mae'n anodd i bobl recriwtio pobl tu mewn i rai o'r mudiadau yma. Felly, rŷm ni'n dod at bwynt lle mae'n rhaid inni gynyddu nifer y siaradwyr Cymraeg er mwyn gallu darparu gwasanaeth mewn rhai o'r mudiadau yma.

Well, I do agree. I think the standards have changed the culture within a number of organisations, and I think that's become clear in the evidence that you as a committee have heard. One of the problems that we have is the fact that what we haven't had from the commissioner is statistics on usage. So, when we receive an assurance report from the commissioner, we haven't received any stats on the use of the services available. So, the statistics you have in front of you here haven't come from the commissioner; these have come from local government. So, that's one of the things that I would like to see in the future, because it's not our role to look at usage levels. That's the responsibility of the commissioner, and what we haven't had is that information in the past. So, I would like to see that changing. I do hope that, in future assurance reports, there will be an improved picture of service usage. But I come back to this point: unless we can convince people to use these services—and you're right in terms of the workforce issues, but we're coming to a point now where it's difficult for people to recruit within some of these organisations. So, we are reaching a point where we have to increase the number of Welsh speakers in order to be able to provide these services.

Achos mae'r safonau yn gallu gosod llwybr i rywun sydd yn mynd i gael addysg cyfrwng Gymraeg, yn gwybod bod yna swyddi ar gael yn y sector gyhoeddus lle mae'r sgìl siarad Cymraeg yn bwysig, ac mae hynny'n uniongyrchol oherwydd y safonau. I fynd yn ôl at y cwestiwn, sampl bychan sydd gennych chi fan hyn, a dwi ddim yn meddwl y dylen ni roi gormod o bwyslais ar y sampl bychan yna, ond dwi'n cytuno bod ishio cynyddu'r defnydd, ond a fedrwch chi ofyn i'r comisiynydd hefyd gasglu data ynglŷn â sut mae'r safonau yn dylanwadu ar y niferoedd o siaradwyr Cymraeg o fewn y mudiadau, sefydliadau—y rheini sydd wedi mynd drwy'r broses o safonau? Achos mae yna waith—. Dwi'n meddwl bod lot o bobl yn anghofio—mae lot o bobl yn meddwl bod y safonau jest yn rhyw reolau sy'n cael eu gosod ar gorff, a bod yna ddisgwyl iddyn nhw gydymffurfio â nhw. Mae yna broses hir, fanwl, bositif yn digwydd cyn cyrraedd y sefyllfa yna, onid oes? A dŷn ni wedi'i weld o mewn tystiolaeth, lle mae'r diwylliant yn newid, ac mae'r gweithluoedd—mae'r siaradwyr Cymraeg o fewn y gweithluoedd yna yn teimlo tipyn mwy hyderus ynglŷn â'u sgiliau siarad Cymraeg. Felly, dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n bwysig casglu'r data yna hefyd.

Because these standards can provide a route for somebody who's going to have Welsh-medium education to know that there are posts available in the public sector where the skill of Welsh speaking is important, and that is directly because of the standards. To go back to the question, you've got a small sample here, and I don't think we should place too much emphasis on that small sample, but I agree that there is a need to increase the use of the language. But can you ask the commissioner also to collect data in terms of how standards are influencing the number of Welsh speakers within organisations that have gone through the process of standards? Because there is work—. I think many people forget—a lot of people think that the standards are just some sort of rules that are placed on a body, and they're expected to comply with them. There is a long and detailed positive process happening before getting to that situation, isn't there? And we've seen it in evidence, where culture does change and Welsh speakers within those workforces feel much more confident with regard to their Welsh-speaking skills. So, I think it's important to collect that data as well.

Rŷn ni ar ganol datblygu cytundeb fframwaith ar gyfer y comisiynydd, a bydd hwnna'n un o'r pethau y byddwn ni'n sicrhau y bydd yn rhan o'n gofynion ni.

We are currently developing a framework agreement for the commissioner, and that is one of the things that we will ensure is included as part of our requirements.

Sori, jest un cwestiwn clou arall ar ddefnydd: rŷch chi wedi dweud ar nifer o adegau'r ffaith bod yna ddiffyg yn y bobl sydd yn defnyddio, eto i gyd rŷch chi'n dweud bod diffyg data. Rŷch chi wedi dyfynnu'r hyn sydd wedi dod o adroddiadau blynyddol llywodraethau lleol, ond eto dŷn ni wedi clywed fel pwyllgor fod yna broblemau gyda'r data hynny hefyd. Er enghraifft, dŷn ni wedi cael e-bost yn dweud, os dŷch chi'n e-bostio cyswllt Saesneg y cyngor, mae hynny'n cael ei gyfrif fel e-bost Saesneg er bod y cynnwys yn y Gymraeg. Felly, os nad yw'r data yma yn ddibynnol, sut ydych chi'n gallu dweud nad yw'r defnydd yn digwydd ar lawr gwlad? Efallai ei fod e, ond bod y data yn anghywir neu'n fratiog.

Sorry, just one quick question on the use of the language: you've said on a number of occasions that there is a lack of people using the language, but also you said there's a lack of data. You've quoted what's come from the local government annual reports, but we've heard as a committee that there are problems with that data as well. For example, we've had an e-mail saying that, if you e-mail an English contact within the council, that counts as an English e-mail even though the content is in Welsh. So, if this data isn't reliable, how can you say that use isn't being made on the ground? Perhaps it is, but the data is wrong or patchy.

Wel, dwi yn meddwl bod hwnna'n bwynt y dylai'r comisiynydd ei gymryd ac edrych arno, fel ein bod ni, pan ŷm ni yn cael rhyw adlewyrchiad o'r hyn sy'n digwydd, yn gallu bod yn ffyddiog bod y ffeithiau sydd gyda ni yn rhai sy'n gyson ar draws llywodraeth leol. Felly, mae hwnna'n rhan, dwi'n gobeithio, fel canlyniad, o beth fyddem ni'n gofyn iddi ei wneud yn yr adroddiad sicrwydd, a byddem ni'n gweld gwelliant yn y data sy'n cael ei ddarparu inni. Achos ar hyn o bryd, mae'n rhaid inni ddibynnu ar lywodraeth leol, ac fel rŷch chi'n dweud, efallai nad yw hwnna'n hollol gymwys ar bob adeg.

Well, I do think that's a point that the commissioner should take up and look at, so that when we do have a reflection of what is happening, we can be confident that the statistics we have are consistent across local government. So, that, I hope, is part of what we will ask her to do as part of the assurance report, and that we will see an improvement in terms of the data provided to us. Because at the moment, we have to rely on local government, and, as you say, perhaps that isn't entirely appropriate on all occasions.

Ocê. Felly, y comisiynydd yn unig sydd yn gyfrifol, yn eich barn chi, am y gwaith hyn.

Okay. So, the commissioner is solely responsible for this work, in your view.

Ocê, iawn. David Melding.

Okay, fine. David Melding.

Minister, the commissioner either completed or advanced significantly work on standards in some very important areas, including social housing, UK Government departments, utility companies, rail and bus, before the Government then decided to stay any further introduction of standards, awaiting this process, in essence. So, will we now see rapid introduction of standards in these areas, or will you expect a comprehensive review to be carried out by the next commissioner, presumably? 

10:15

So, I think there are a couple of areas where we're already quite advanced. So, water is one area where we think that we can move ahead fairly rapidly. The other one was the rheoleiddio—health regulators. So, those two are very much near the end of the process, so I'm hopeful that we could forge ahead with those areas fairly rapidly. 

And some of the others—are they just so complex that you want to reduce them fundamentally? Is that the criteria you're using at the moment in those that can come in fairly soon, and those that need review?  

One of the things that I've done is that I've written to the utilities companies and asked them to come in and have a discussion about what they're doing already, how far we can persuade them to work at the moment. I think we've got to be careful and sensitive in the way we approach this, because the last thing we want to do is see people not invest in Wales as a result. And so, we've got to be just careful how we tread, in particular when they start to quote the kind of figures that we're quoting already. If you look at it, some of these companies are already providing a service, and people are not using them. So, it's very, very difficult, I think, for us to then say, 'Step up your work'. And the investment that you'd have to make if the Welsh public are not using them—it's very difficult.  

And where are we with social housing, which is massively important in the heartland areas, for instance, for retaining a Welsh-speaking population? Are the standards in a fit state to be introduced soon? 

We've done a lot of work on those as well. Bethan, would you like to—?

Yes, we've done a fair bit of work on the social housing standards, so they would be next. As you know, the commissioner always publishes a list of potential standards, because she starts—the process kicks off with her investigations and therefore we have a list that we stick to in terms of how we introduce the legislation. So, after the health regulators and water, social housing was the next on that list, from memory. 

Oes yna ryw syniad o'r amserlen ar gyfer hynny? So, rydyn ni'n sôn am ddŵr a rheoleiddio iechyd a chymdeithasau tai, i fod yn glir. Rheina fydd y safonau nesaf i ddod gerbron, ond pryd fydd hynna'n digwydd?  

Is there any idea regarding the timetable for that? So, we're talking about water and health regulation and housing associations, to be clear. Those will be the next standards to come forward, but when will that happen? 

Mae'n anodd iawn, achos mae lot o bobl ar hyn o bryd yn cael eu sugno i mewn i'r bobl sy'n gweithio ar y pethau yma— 

It is difficult, because many people at the moment are being sucked into working on these issues—

Ydy'r pedwar person sydd yn uned y Gymraeg yn cael eu sugno mewn i ochr Brexit? 

Are the four people in the Welsh language unit being subsumed by Brexit? 

Mae un ohonyn nhw, yn sicr, wedi mynd yn barod. 

One of them has certainly gone already. 

So, tri sydd ar ôl, ond maen nhw wedi bod yn gweithio ar Bil y Gymraeg, ac rŵan maen nhw'n rhydd o hwnna, felly—

So, there are three left, but they have been working on the Welsh language Bill, and now they are free from that, so—

Ac maen nhw wedi cael eu sugno mewn i Brexit, a beth sy'n digwydd gyda Brexit. Mae hwn yn digwydd ar draws y Llywodraeth. Dyna yw'r broblem sydd gyda ni. Felly, mae'n anodd i ni ddweud, 'Dyma yw'r amserlen', achos mae popeth yn cael ei sugno gan Brexit ar hyn o bryd.  

And they have been affected by Brexit, and what's happening with Brexit. That's happening across Government. That's the problem that we have, so it's difficult for us to say, 'This is the timetable', because everything is being affected by Brexit at the moment.  

Ac wedyn y sefydliadau sydd wedi cael eu creu o'r newydd ers i'r Ddeddf ddod i rym—Cymwysterau Cymru a Chomisiynydd Cenedlaethau'r Dyfodol Cymru, er enghraifft—pryd mae'r rheini yn mynd i ddod o fewn y rheoliadau? 

And then the organisations that have been created from new since the Act came into force—Qualifications Wales and the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales, for example—when are they going to come within the regulations? 

Dwi'n meddwl allwn ni symud yn weddol gyflym ar y rheini. 

I think we can move quite swiftly on those. 

Mae o'n broses ddeddfwriaethol yn yr un modd. Felly, mae'n dibynnu, fel mae'r Gweinidog wedi dweud, ar adnodd deddfwriaethol y Llywodraeth, achos mae'r adnodd yna yn cael ei sugno mewn i Brexit ar hyn o bryd.  

Yes, it is a legislative process. So, it does depend, as the Minister has said, on the legislative resource of Government, because that resource is being taken up by Brexit at the moment. 

Ocê. Ac i fod yn glir, y tri pherson yma, rŵan, sydd yn uned y Gymraeg—mi fyddan nhw'n gweithio ar y safonau, ond a fyddan nhw hefyd yn gyfrifol am y strategaeth miliwn o siaradwyr?  

Okay. And to be clear, these three persons now in the Welsh language unit—they'll be working on the standards, but will they also be responsible for the strategy of a million Welsh speakers? 

Pwy sydd yn gyfrifol am yrru hynny?

Who's responsible for driving that? 

Fi sy'n gyfrifol am yrru hynny, ac—

I'm responsible for driving that, and—

Pwy ydy'r gweision sifil sydd yn gweithio ar hynny? 

Who are the civil servants working on that? 

Wel, mae yna adran y Gymraeg. Rŷch chi'n ymwybodol—dwi'n meddwl eich bod chi wedi gofyn yn aml iawn  faint o bobl sy'n gweithio— 

Well, there is a Welsh language division. You're aware—I think you've asked on a number of occasions how many people are working—

10:20

Do, a dwi dal ddim yn gwybod. Ac mi wnaf i ofyn heddiw. [Chwerthin.]

Yes, and I still have no idea. And I'll ask again today. [Laughter.]

Dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna wedi mynd atoch chi'n barod—dyma beth ydy strwythur yr is-adran. Felly, mae yna gangen sy'n edrych ar ôl y polisi Cymraeg 2050. Mae gennym ni swyddogion polisi sy'n ymwneud ag ymdrin â'r safonau, ond, wrth gwrs, nid cyfreithwyr ydyn nhw—swyddogion polisi yn ymdrin â maes polisi ydyn nhw. So, maen nhw'n aros yn yr is-adran, wrth gwrs eu bod nhw. 

I think you've been provided with this—this is the structure of the division. So, there is a branch that is responsible for Cymraeg 2050. We have policy officials who do deal with standards, but, of course, they're not lawyers—they deal with policy. So, they remain within the division, of course they do. 

Siân, wyt ti wedi gorffen?

Siân, have you finished? 

Felly, ar hyn o bryd, eu gwaith nhw ydy gyrru'r strategaeth 2050—y  swyddogion polisi. 

So, currently, their work is driving the 2050 strategy—the policy officials. 

Wel, mae'r swyddogion polisi—. Mae yna strategaeth. Mae wedi'i setio allan yn hollol glir, a'u gwaith nhw yw delifro ar y polisi yna. Felly, rŷn ni'n gwybod yn union beth rŷn ni ishe ei wneud a beth rŷn ni eisiau cyflawni. 

Well, there are policy officers—. There is a strategy that has been clearly set out, and their job is to deliver on that policy. So, we know exactly what we want to do and what we want to deliver. 

Ond gallai'r gwaith yna symud at y comisiynydd yn y dyfodol. 

But that work could go to the commissioner in the future. 

Mae'n bosibl y  gallai, ac mae'r drafodaeth yna i'w chael. 

It's a possibility, and that is a discussion yet to be had. 

Thank you, Chair. We've taken lots of evidence about the complaints process and the complexity of that, particularly the role of the commissioner in the decision-making process as well. One area that was being flagged up to us consistently is the expectation that the commissioner will investigate all the complaints she receives, regardless of whether the issue has been rectified before the investigation begins. It doesn't seem to be a very efficient way of operating or really aligned with the sort of carrot-and-stick approach that you've been discussing with us today. So, what are your intentions for simplifying that process? 

Well, part of the problem is that that is an issue for the commissioner. I would love to see simplification of the process. I've heard that it can take about 56 hours to resolve a very, very simple issue about misspelling. This is really not how resources should be used, I don't think. So, what we've done is to get that evidence, we've asked for clarity, legal clarity, in terms of how far she can push the matter. We think that the evidence that has come from the tribunals in the past gives her the authority to speed the process up. So, we would very much encourage her to do that, and also to benchmark against other similar bodies, and to look at how fast resolution happens in other areas. The ombudsman says 'You've got to go through the system internally before you come anywhere near me.' That would seem to me to be a sensible approach. 

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Wrth gwrs, safbwynt y Llywodraeth, yn y Papur Gwyn, yw bod eisiau ailffocysu ar ymdrechion i hyrwyddo a gwneud newidiadau i'r ffordd mae rheoleiddio yn gweithio, a bod rhaid gwneud hyn fel mater o frys—cytuno'n hollol â hynna. Yma mha ffordd ydy hynny, felly, yn gallu cael ei—? Ym mha ffordd ydy hynny'n gweithio ynglŷn â'r penderfyniad i beidio â bwrw ymlaen gyda'r Bil?

Thank you, Chair. Of course, the Government's view in the White Paper is that there is a need to refocus on efforts to promote and change the way that regulation works, and that there's a need to do this as a matter of urgency. I totally agree with that. In which way, therefore, can that—? In what way does that work in terms of the decision not to go ahead with the Bill?

Ie. A oes eisiau Bil i'w wneud e, neu ydy e'n wir bod yna ffyrdd eraill i wneud e heb orfod cael Bil?

Yes. Do you need a Bill to do that, or are there other ways in which it could be done without the need for legislation?

Wel, dwi'n meddwl y gallwn ni wthio'r gyfundrefn bresennol lot ymhellach. Dwi yn meddwl, yn sicr o safbwynt y Llywodraeth—. Beth oeddwn i'n teimlo oedd, gan nad oedd y gwaith yna'n cael ei wneud gan y comisiynydd yn y ffordd roeddwn i'n gobeithio, o ran hybu a hyrwyddo—roedden ni wedi dechrau gwneud y stwff yna'n fewnol ein hunain. Nawr, nid o reidrwydd dyna yw'r lle gorau i'w wneud e, ond roedden ni'n llenwi bwlch. Nawr, be licen i weld yw, os ŷn ni'n gweld diwylliant newydd tu mewn i swyddfa'r comisiynydd, wedyn dwi yn meddwl y gallwn ni wneud lot o waith ar y cyd o ran hybu a hyrwyddo.

Dwi eisiau gweld hyn fel lot mwy o bartneriaeth rhwng y Llywodraeth a'r comisiynydd. Wrth gwrs, mae'n rhaid iddi fod yn annibynnol, wrth gwrs bod gwaith gyda hi o ran rheoleiddio, ond mae lot o'r mudiadau hyn sydd â'r safonau, maen nhw angen help, a beth ni ishe yw sicrhau eu bod nhw'n cael yr help i gyflawni'r safonau, fel bod mwy o bobl yn eu defnyddio nhw yn hytrach na'u bod nhw jest yn gweld y comisiynydd fel plismon ieithyddol. Dwi ddim yn meddwl bod hynna'n help i neb.

Well, I think that we can push the boundaries of the current system a lot further. I do think, certainly from the point of view of Government—. What I felt was that, as that work wasn't being done by the commissioner in the way that we would have hoped, in terms of the promotion activity—we had started to do that internally ourselves. Now, that's not necessarily the best place for it to be done, but we were filling a gap. Now, what we would like to see is that, if we see a new culture emerge within the commissioner's office, then I do think that we can do a great deal of work together in terms of promotion.

I want to see this as far more of a partnership between the Government and the commissioner. Of course, the commissioner must be independent, and of course there is regulatory work to be done within the commissioner's office, but many of these bodies and organisations who are subject to standards need help, and what we want to do is to ensure that that help is available to them in order to deliver against standards, so that more people use those services, rather than those organisations seeing the commissioner as the language police. I don’t think that helps anyone.

10:25

Ocê. Rŷch chi wedi dweud yn gynharach eich bod chi’n agored i drosglwyddo rhai cyfrifoldebau i’r comisiynydd. Rhaid inni gofio, wrth gwrs, fod—profiad wedi dysgu i fi—weithiau, y cyfrifoldebau yn cael eu trosglwyddo, ond mae’r bai yn dal yn aros gyda'r Llywodraeth. So, felly, mae’n rhaid bod yn ofalus iawn ynglŷn â hwnna. Ond pe buasem ni mewn sefyllfa lle mae’r cyfrifoldebau wedi cael eu trosglwyddo, a fyddai fe’n wir felly y byddai adnoddau yn dilyn unrhyw drosglwyddiad a fyddai’n cymryd lle?

Okay. You said earlier that you’re open to transferring some responsibilities to the commissioner. We have to remember, that—experience has taught me—sometimes, responsibilities are transferred, but the blame remains with the Government. So, there is a need to be careful there. But, if we are in a situation where responsibilities have been transferred, would it be true, therefore, that resources would follow any transfer of responsibility?

Wel, gaf i roi enghraifft i chi o beth rŷn ni’n ei wneud yn fewnol ar hyn o bryd? Mae Cymraeg Byd Busnes, ac mae gyda ni nawr 12 o bobl sy’n mynd o gwmpas Cymru, sy’n helpu busnesau bach i roi gwasanaeth trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ac maen nhw’n gallu helpu gyda thamaid bach o gyfieithu neu beth bynnag. Nawr, mae hwnna’n enghraifft, dwi’n meddwl, o rywbeth a allai gael ei wneud gan swyddfa’r comisiynydd. Ond ar hyn o bryd—. Ac mae yna linell gyswllt; mae hwnna’n rhywbeth buaswn i’n meddwl y dylai’r comisiynydd ei ddarparu, ond ni sydd yn mynd i ddarparu hwnna nawr. Felly, mae yna bethau dwi yn meddwl y gallai’r comisiynydd fod yn gallu eu gwneud, ac, wrth gwrs, pe bydden ni’n gweld bod yna appetite gan y comisiynydd i symud i’r cyfeiriad yna, gallen ni weld yr adnoddau yna—. Fuaswn i ddim yn rhoi’r cyfrifoldeb heb—. Mae’r bobl yna y tu mewn i Lywodraeth Cymru ar hyn o bryd; mae yn bosib y gallen ni eu gweld nhw’n symud i swyddfa’r comisiynydd yn y dyfodol. So, wrth gwrs y bydden ni, ond, ar hyn o bryd, does dim digon o hyder gyda ni i weld nad ydyn nhw hefyd yn mynd i gael eu sugno i mewn i’r vortex rheoleiddio yma.

Well, may I give you an example of what we're doing internally at the moment? With Cymraeg Byd Busnes, we now have 12 people travelling across Wales, helping small businesses to provide services through the medium of Welsh, and they can help with some translation or whatever it may be. Now, that’s an example of something that could be done by the commissioner’s office. But at the moment—and there is a helpline, and I would have thought that that’s something that the commissioner should provide, but we are going to be providing that. So, I do think that there are things that the commissioner could be doing, and, of course, if we were to see that there was an appetite in the commissioner’s office to move in that direction, then we could see the resources—. And we wouldn’t transfer responsibility without resources. Those people are currently within Welsh Government, and it’s possible that we may see them moving to the commissioner’s office in the future. So, yes, of course we would, but, at the moment, we're not sufficiently confident in seeing that they, too, wouldn’t be drawn in to the regulatory vortex, as it were.

So, felly, y sefyllfa fyddai y byddai’n drosglwyddiad o adnoddau a phobl, a byddwn ni mewn sefyllfa lle byddai mwy o swyddi yn cael eu creu yn swyddfa’r comisiynydd, efallai’n gwneud yr un gwaith â swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru.

So, therefore, the situation would be that there would be a transfer of resources and people, and not a situation in which more posts would be created in the commissioner’s office, perhaps doing the same work as officials in Welsh Government.

Yn y pen draw, dyna beth y buaswn i’n licio ei weld, ond mae’n rhaid inni weld bod yna newid diwylliant a bod yna fwy o frwdfrydedd o ran gwneud hybu a hyrwyddo tu fewn i swyddfa’r comisiynydd.

Ultimately, that’s what I would like to see, but we do have to see that there is a change of culture and that there is more enthusiasm in terms of carrying out the promotional activities within the commissioner’s office.

Gaf i ofyn beth fyddai mantais hynny?

What would be the benefit of that?

Y fantais fyddai—. Wel, dwi’n meddwl bod yna bethau sy’n cael eu gwneud yn dda tu fewn i’r Llywodraeth, fel polisi. Dwi’n meddwl bod pobl sydd mas yn y gymuned—dwi ddim yn gweld pam y dylai’r rheini gael eu rheoleiddio gan y Llywodraeth. Mae’n lot gwell gyda fi eu bod nhw mas yn y gymuned a bod hwnna’n agosach at y bobl. Buaswn i’n licio gweld a meddwl bod y comisiynydd yn agosach at y cymunedau Cymraeg. Dwi’n meddwl bod hynna’n rhan o’i gwaith hi.

Well, the benefit would be—. I think that there are things that are done well within Government, such as policy. I think that people out in the community—I don’t see why they should be regulated by Government. I would prefer to see them out there and that they are closer to the people. And I would like to see, and I would like to think, that the commissioner would be closer to Welsh-speaking communities. I think that’s part of her role.

Beth fyddai’n hi’n cymryd i chi ddeall beth yw newid diwylliant? Achos, i ni sydd yn sgriwtineiddio, dŷn ni angen deall beth a fydd yn ei chymryd i chi ddweud, ‘Ydy, mae’r diwylliant wedi newid fel hyn er mwyn i fi glustnodi’r arian yma iddyn nhw’. Beth yw’r canllawiau neu’r 'amodau', fel sydd yn eich papur chi, a fydd yn caniatáu i hyn oll i ddigwydd?

What would it take for you to understand what a change of culture is? Because, for us who scrutinise, we need to understand what it would take for you to say, ‘Yes, the culture has changed in this way for me to earmark this funding for them’. What is the guidance, or the 'conditions', as in your paper, that would allow this to happen?

Wel, os dŷch chi—. Dwi’n meddwl bod eisiau inni weld y balans yn newid rhwng faint o bobl sy’n ymwneud â rheoleiddio ar hyn o bryd tu fewn—

Well, if you—. I think we’d need to see a shift in the balance in terms of the number of those responsible for regulation within—

Ond byddai’r balans yn ddibynnol ar arian, ac dŷn ni wedi clywed nad yw’r arian yn ddigonol ar gyfer y comisiynydd ganddyn nhw. Felly, sut mae’r balans yn mynd i newid os nad ydyn nhw’n cael y capasiti i newid?

But that balance would be reliant on funding, and we’ve heard that the funding isn’t sufficient at the moment. So, how is that balance going to change unless they have the capacity in place?

Dwi ddim yn meddwl fod e'n ddibynnol ar arian. Os bydd yn cymryd 56 awr, neu rywbeth felly, i ddelio ag un cŵyn bach, mae’n amlwg y gallai’r adnoddau yna, sydd yn ymwneud â’r gwaith yna ar hyn o bryd, gael eu rhyddhau ar gyfer pethau eraill. Felly, dyna yw’r balans rŷn ni eisiau ei weld yn newid.

I don’t think it’s down to money. If it takes 56 hours to deal with one minor complaint, then it’s clear that those resources currently being sucked up into those activities could be released elsewhere. So, that’s the balance that we want to see changing.

A beth am y mudiadau eraill sydd yn gwneud y gwaith hyrwyddo ar hyn o bryd, fel yr Urdd, fel y mentrau? Dŷch chi wedi rhoi lot o ffocws ar y comisiynydd i wneud gwaith hyrwyddo; beth byddai’r balans gyda nhw wedyn, o ran eu dwyn nhw i gyfrif am wneud mwy o waith yn y sector yma?

And what about the other organisations that are doing promotional work, such as the Urdd and the mentrau? You’ve placed a lot of focus on the commissioner to do promotion work; what would the balance be with them, therefore, in holding them to account for more work in this sector?

Wel, dwi yn meddwl bod yn rhaid inni roi pwyslais ar sicrhau eu bod nhw yn gwneud eu siâr nhw o gyrraedd miliwn o siaradwyr. Dwi'n meddwl bod rhai ohonyn nhw yn gwneud gwaith arbennig. Mae'n dod nôl at y pwynt roedd Carwyn Jones yn ei wneud ynglŷn â'r cyfrifoldeb—os rŷn ni'n rhoi'r cyfrifoldeb i grŵp arall, yn aml, y Llywodraeth sy'n cael y bai, hyd yn oes os ydyn ni'n rhoi'r cyfrifoldeb i rywun arall. Felly, mae'n rhaid inni jest sicrhau ein bod ni'n cael y balans yna'n iawn. A dwi'n meddwl bod rhan o beth rŷn ni'n ei wneud ar gyfer cynllunio ieithyddol—so, hwn yw'r peth newydd rŷn ni'n edrych arno—yw ein bod ni'n glir o ran ble yw'r lle gorau i hynny ddigwydd. A dwi'n hollol glir—pe buasen ni'n rhoi'r arian i gyd i'r comisiynydd, a bod y comisiynydd yn dweud, 'Actually, dŷn ni ddim yn mynd i ariannu'r Eisteddfod Genedlaethol rhagor', byddai'r ffws ddim yn mynd at swyddfa'r comisiynydd, byddai'n dod at Lywodraeth Cymru. Felly, mae'n rhaid inni fod yn glir ynglŷn â ble mae'r balans yn dderbyniol yn wleidyddol hefyd.

Well, I do think that we need to ensure that they pulling their weight in reaching a million Welsh speakers. I think some of them are doing excellent work. It comes back to the point raised by Carwyn Jones in terms of where responsibility lies. If we give the responsibility to another organisation, it's very often the Government that's still blamed, even if the responsibility is transferred elsewhere. So, we do have to ensure that we strike the right balance in that regard. And I think that part of what we're doing in terms of language planning—and this is the new area that we're looking at—is that we are clear as to where that most comfortably sits. And I'm quite clear—if we were to provide all of the funds to the commissioner, and the commissioner were to say, 'Well, actually, we're not going to be funding the National Eisteddfod any more', the criticism wouldn't be of the commissioner's office, it would be a criticism of the Welsh Government. So, we have to be clear as to where the balance is acceptable in political terms too.

10:30

Thank you, Chair. Do you see a greater role for the commissioner in language planning, such as bringing experts together? Is that something you foresee?

I think language planning is the area that we need to focus on next. So, I've asked for a paper to be written to set out the options in relation to language planning. I think a lot of the tools in relation to language planning lie with the Welsh Government. So, education is a key part of language planning. I think economic development, and providing the opportunities for Welsh speakers to stay in the heartlands, is a key part of Welsh Government. So, I think there is a big case to be made that, actually, some of that—or, probably, that should be done in Welsh Government, but I'm open to hear whether other options are possible. So, I want to make sure that the partnership council, which advises us on the Welsh language, are a part of that debate, and that they are giving some external advice on where the best place to put that is. But, obviously, I think we need a discussion with the commissioner. We need clarity in terms of who is responsible for what. I think we can do a better job on that.

Is that something that's started already, or is it just about to?

The conversation has definitely started already. It's something we touched upon in the partnership council recently. It's something that we have been discussing with Dyfodol—the organisation are very keen to see that happening. So I think there's a real opportunity for us to really forge ahead in that area of language planning and to develop an expertise. So, I'm not sure that that expertise really exists either in the commissioner's office at the moment or within the Welsh Government. So, I think we have pockets of expertise; what we don't have is a real overall strategic view of language planning.

Dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni wedi clywed, neu mae'r pwyllgor wedi clywed, tystiolaeth o wledydd eraill yn dweud bod Cymru ar y blaen o ran cynllunio ieithyddol—bod arbenigedd gennym ni. Ond y cwestiwn ydy: ai yn y Llywodraeth y mae o? A beth mae arbenigwyr yn ei ddweud wrthyf fi ydy nad yn y Llywodraeth mae'r arbenigedd yna, ac felly dyna pam bod angen tynnu hynny at ei gilydd mewn rhyw fath o gorff hyd braich. Ydych chi'n agored i'r syniad yna?

I think we've heard, or the committee has heard, evidence from other countries that says that Wales is at the forefront in terms of language planning—that there is expertise here in Wales. But the question is: is the expertise in the Government? And what experts tell me is that the expertise isn't in the Government, and therefore that's why there is a need to bring that together in some sort of arm's-length body. Are you open to that idea?

Ar hyn o bryd, dwi'n edrych ar opsiynau. Dwi ddim yn meddwl fy mod i eisiau gweld corff hyd braich, achos mae hwnna, eto, yn creu strwythur newydd. Byddwn i eisiau cael trafodaeth ar a ddylai hynna fod yn swyddfa'r comisiynydd neu yn y Llywodraeth. Ond dwi'n agored i wrando ar farn pobl ar hynny, a dyna pam dwi wedi gofyn am bapur, i weld ble yw'r lle gorau i wneud hynny. Dwi eisiau gwrando ar yr arbenigwyr yn y maes. Mae yna arbenigwyr yn y maes yma sy'n bodoli; dwi eisiau clywed yr hyn sydd ganddyn nhw i'w ddweud.

At the moment, I am looking at the options. I don't think I want to see an arm's-length body, because, again, that would create a new structure. I would want to have a discussion as to whether that would be within the commissioner's office or within Government. But I am open to listening to people's views on that, and that's why I've asked for a paper, to see where the best place for that is. But I want to listen to the experts in the area. There are experts in this area, and I want to hear what they have to say.

Dŷch chi'n meddwl eich bod chi'n bod yn ddigon uchelgeisiol? Hynny yw, dŷn ni'n sôn am shifftio'r adnoddau o gwmpas—dŷn ni ddim yn sôn am roi mwy o adnoddau tuag at gynllun miliwn o siaradwyr. A'r gwir amdani ydy bod Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg—yn y dyddiau hynny, roedd yna ddwbl y swm o arian sydd yn cael ei wario ar y Gymraeg yn cael ei wario bryd hynny. Felly, dŷn ni wedi mynd yn ôl, ac eto mae'r uchelgais o filiwn o siaradwyr yma. Felly, ai'r ateb mewn gwirionedd ydy rhoi mwy adnoddau, fel bod y comisiynydd yn gallu cario ymlaen efo'i gwaith, a bod y gwaith cynllunio ieithyddol a hyrwyddo hefyd yn cael statws go iawn, achos mae'n ymddangos i fi ar hyn o bryd eich bod chi'n trio stwffio bob dim i mewn i un lle heb yr adnoddau digonol? 

Do you think you're being ambitious enough? We're talking about shifting resources around—we're not talking about providing more resources towards the million Welsh speakers plan. And the truth is that the Welsh Language Board—in those days, there was double the sum of money that's being spent on the Welsh language being spent then. We've gone back, and yet the ambition is a million Welsh speakers. So, is the answer really about providing more resources, so that the commissioner can continue with her work, and that the language planning work and promotion work also has a proper status, because it appears to me at the moment that you're trying to stuff everything into one place without sufficient resources? 

10:35

Wel, dwi ddim yn meddwl bod neb yn gallu dweud bod Llywdraeth Cymru ddim yn ambitious o ran miliwn o siaradwyr. Mae hwnna yn ambitious dros ben. 

Well, I don't think anyone could say that the Welsh Government isn't ambitious in terms of a million Welsh speakers. That is very ambitious. 

Ond mae'n rhaid i adnoddau ddilyn uchelgais. 

But resources do have to follow ambition. 

So, beth dwi'n meddwl sy'n hollbwysig i ni danlinellu yw faint o adnoddau sy'n mynd mewn i addysg Gymraeg. Dyna yw'r lle sy'n mynd i wneud gwahaniaeth sylfaenol yn y niferoedd sy'n siarad Cymraeg. Felly, nid jest y pot o arian sydd ar gael tu fewn i Lywodraeth Cymru neu swyddfa'r comisiynydd yw e. Mae yna andros o lot o arian yn mynd i addysg Gymraeg. Felly, allwch chi ddim anwybyddu hynny, a mae lot, lot mwy o arian yn mynd mewn i hynny nag oedd yn y gorffennol.   

So, what's entirely crucial for us to underline is the resources going into Welsh-medium education. That's where we're going to see a fundamental shift in the number of Welsh speakers. So, it's not just the pot of money available within Welsh Government or the commissioner's office. There is a huge amount of money invested in Welsh-medium education. So, you can't ignore that, and there's far more money going into that than was the case in the past. 

Diolch. Allaf i jest ofyn cwestiwn ynglŷn â'ch syniad chi o gael bwrdd llywodraethu yn rhan o waith y comisiwn? Ydych chi'n credu mai rôl y Llywodraeth fyddai penodi neu gael rhan mewn penodi pwy fydd ar y bwrdd llywodraethu hwnnw, neu ai rôl y comisiynydd fyddai wneud hynny? 

Thank you. Can I just ask a question on your idea of having a governing board as part of the commission's work? Do you think that it would be the role of the Government to appoint or to take a part in appointing members of that board, or would it be a role for the commissioner? 

Wel, dwi yn meddwl fod e'n bwysig bod y pŵer i gyd—. Mae yna berygl rhoi pŵer yn nwylo un person, a dyma'r argraff—. Rŷn ni wedi gweld tystiolaeth. Dwi'n gwybod roedd Tŷ'r Arglwyddi wedi gwneud lot o waith ar hwn, ac wedi dweud ei fod e'n berygl rhoi gymaint o bŵer yn nwylo un person, a bod nhw yn argymhell bod yna ryw fath o fwrdd yn cael ei greu sydd â'r modd i ymgynghori ar—

Well, I do think it's important that all the power—. There is a danger of putting power into the hands of one person, and this is the impression—. We have seen evidence. I know that the House of Lords has done a lot of work on this, and said that there is a risk in placing so much power in the hands of one person, and that they recommend that there is some sort of board that's created that can be consulted on. 

Ond mae'r comisiynwyr eraill, comisiynydd plant, comisiynydd pobl hŷn—mae'n beryglus eu bod nhw'n cael y pwerau hynny?

But the other commissioners, the children's commissioner, the older people's commissioner—is there a danger there? 

Wel, dyw'r math o bŵer sydd gyda nhw ddim yr un peth â'r pŵer sydd gan y comisiynydd. 

Well, the sort of power they have isn't the same sort of power that the commissioner has. 

Nac yw, ond maen nhw'n gomisiynwyr. Ac mae comisiynwyr, fel mae Siân wedi ei ddweud—. Rŷn ni wedi cael tystiolaeth gan gomisiynwyr rhyngwladol sy'n edrych at Gymru fel engrhaifft gadarnhaol felly. Fyddech chi eisiau cael rhan ym mhenodi rhyw fwrdd llywodraethu? Fyddech chi am weld hynny yn digwydd, er efallai na fyddai'r comisiynydd newydd am i hynny ddigwydd? Mae hwnna'n rywbeth sydd yn rhaid digwydd, yn eich barn chi.

No, but they are commissioners. And commissioners, as Sian has said—. We've had evidence from international commissioners that look to Wales as a positive example. Would you want to have a part in the appointment of any governing body? Would you want to see that happening, even though perhaps the new commissioner wouldn't want that to happen? That is something that has to happen, in your view.

Wel, dwi'n meddwl bod yn rhaid inni wneud yn siŵr nad ydyn ni'n camu ar draed y comisiynydd o ran rheoleiddio. Dwi'n meddwl bod yn rhaid i'r comisiynydd fod yn annibynnol ar y Llywodraeth o ran rheoleiddio. Ond dwi yn meddwl, o ran hybu a hyrwyddo, efallai bod rôl gyda ni, a bod hi'n bwysig ein bod ni'n cydweithredu o ran hybu a hyrwyddo. 

Well, I do think that we have to ensure that we don't step on the commissioner's toes in terms of regulation. I think the commissioner has to be independent of Government in terms of regulation. But I do think, in terms of promotion, perhaps we do have a role, and it's important that we do collaborate on promotion.  

Ond, i fod yn devil's advocate, mae yna nifer fawr o bobl sydd yn bodoli yn y byd Cymraeg sy'n gallu cynghori y comisiynydd nawr heb fod yna fwrdd llywodraethu yn cael ei sefydlu. Pam mae hynny'n ateb i'ch problem chi?

But, to be devil's advocate, there are a number of people in the Welsh language world who can advise the commissioner now without there having to be a governing board. Why is that a solution to your problem? 

Achos dwi'n meddwl beth sydd ei angen yw cysondeb ac eglurder a rhyw fath o sicrwydd bod yna ffordd uniongyrchol i ni fod yn glir bod y comisiynydd yn cael barn pobl eraill, nid jest yn—. Ar hyn o bryd, dyw'r sicrwydd ddim yna. Mae yna lot o bobl mae'n gallu gofyn iddyn nhw, ond does dim rhaid iddi ofyn iddyn nhw. 

Because what is needed is consistency and clarity and some sort of assurance that there is a direct route for us to be clear that the commissioner is taking account of the views of others. At the moment, those assurances aren't in place. There are many people she can approach, but she doesn't have to do that. 

Iawn. Jest cyn gorffen, oes yna rhyw fath o amserlen ar hyn oll? Yn amlwg, rŷn ni wedi cael hwn yn weddol ddiweddar, felly bydden ni eisiau deall beth yw'r broses nawr wrth iddi fynd rhagddi er mwyn inni ddeall, fel pwyllgor, sut dŷn ni'n gallu sgrwtineiddio'r broses. 

Right. Just before we end, is there some sort of timescale for all of this? Clearly, we have had this quite recently, so we would want to understand what the process is now in moving forward so that we understand, as a committee, how we can scrutinise the process. 

Ocê. So, y camau nesaf—. Mae yna bethau dŷn ni'n gweithredu arnyn nhw ar hyn o bryd. Y peth nesaf sy'n bwysig i fi yw ein bod ni'n bwrw ymlaen gyda'r cynlluniau ar gyfer cynllunio ieithyddol, ein bod ni'n bwrw ymlaen gyda hynny, ein bod ni'n edrych ar y safonau, yn enwedig dŵr efallai a rheoleiddio iechyd—bod rheini'n cael eu gweithredu—ein bod ni ddim yn tynnu'r pwysau oddi wrth y sector preifat i wneud yr hyn maen nhw'n gallu ar hyn o bryd. Felly, dyna pam dwi wedi gofyn iddyn nhw ddod i gyfarfod gyda fi. Dwi'n gwybod bod y comisiynydd yn gweithredu ar y banciau a'r archfarchnadoedd. A dwi'n mynd i wneud bach o waith ar yr utilities, felly rŷn ni'n gweithio ar hynny. Yn amlwg, byddwn ni'n cydweithredu gyda'r Gweinidog Addysg ar sut rŷn ni'n gallu cael mwy o athrawon i ddysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Felly, dyna yw'r blaenoriaethau i fi yn ystod y misoedd nesaf.

Okay. So, the next steps—. There are things that we are currently implementing at the moment. The next important thing for me is that we make progress with our plans for language planning, that we make progress there, that we look at standards, particularly the water companies and the regulation of health—that those are put in place—that we don't lose focus on the private sector and ensure that they do what they can at the moment. That's why I've asked them to attend a meeting with me. I know that the commissioner is working on on the banks and supermarkets. And I will be doing some work on the utilities, so we're working in those areas. So, clearly, we will be working with the Minister for Education in terms of how we can encourage more teachers to teach through the medium of Welsh. So, those are the priorities for me over the next few months.

10:40

Efallai mai cwestiwn gwell i'w ofyn yw: pryd fyddwch chi mewn sefyllfa i roi mwy o ddiweddariad i ni ar yr hyn sydd wedi cael ei roi yn y papur tystiolaeth?

Perhaps a better question to ask is: when will you be in a better position to provide us with more of an update on what's been given in the evidence paper?

Wel, mae lot yn ddibynnol ar Brexit, ond dwi'n meddwl beth allaf i ei ddweud yw, o ran cynllunio ieithyddol, bydden i eisiau gweld hynny’n symud ymlaen. Felly, mis Mehefin—rhywbeth fel hynny. Efallai cyn hynny.

Well, much of it is reliant on Brexit, but what I can say is that, in terms of language planning, I would want to see that making progress. So, June—something like that. Perhaps before then.

Ac mae jest cwestiwn atodol gen i o ran gofyn i chi am wybodaeth am reoliadau contract gofal sylfaenol y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Beth yw'r amserlen o ran eu cyflwyno? Rŷch chi wedi dweud y byddech chi'n rhoi digon o amser i ni fel pwyllgor i'w sgrwtineiddio.

And I just have a supplementary question in terms of asking you about information on the national health service primary care contract regulations. What is the timescale in terms of the introduction of these? You've said that you would provide the committee with enough time to scrutinise them.

So, beth sy'n digwydd ar hyn o bryd—mae yna drafodaethau gyda'r pedwar corff cynrychioladol—meddygon teulu, optegwyr, fferyllwyr a deintyddion. Beth ŷn ni'n treial ei wneud yw gweld i ba raddau rŷn ni'n gallu rhoi gwasanaethau Cymraeg i mewn i'w contractau ac amodau gwaith nhw. Felly, beth rŷn ni wedi'i wneud hefyd yw datblygu toolkit ar gyfer y sector i ddatblygu a helpu hyn. O ran yr amserlen, oes gen ti ddiweddariad?

So, what's happening at the moment is that there are discussions with the four representative bodies—general practitioners, opticians, pharmacists and dentists. What we're trying to do is to see to what extent we can place Welsh language services within their contracts and terms and conditions. So, what we've done is to develop a toolkit for the sector in order to facilitate this. In terms of the timetable, do you have any update?

Ie, amserlen y rheoliadau fyddai'n ein helpu ni.

Yes, it's the regulatory timetable that would help us.

Mae'r amserlen yn fater i'r adran iechyd ac mae'n cael ei dal yn yr un cyd-destun, o ran bod amserlen Brexit yn cymryd blaenoriaeth ar ddeddfwriaeth.

That's a matter for the health department, but it's captured in the same context in terms of the Brexit timetable being a priority in terms of legislation.

Ocê. Felly, mae angen i ni gysylltu â'r Gweinidog iechyd.

Okay. So, we need to contact the health Minister.

Yr adran iechyd.

The health department.

Iawn. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am roi tystiolaeth gerbron. Os oes unrhyw beth ychwanegol gyda ni, byddwn ni'n ysgrifennu atoch chi yn y man. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Okay. Thank you very much for providing evidence. If there's anything in addition from us, we'll write to you shortly. Thank you very much.

3. Papurau i'w nodi
3. Papers to note

Mae yna eitemau o ran papurau i'w nodi. Mae yna gryn lythyrau i'w nodi. Ydy pawb yn hapus i'w nodi, neu oes gan unrhyw un sylwad ar y papurau? Na. 

Felly, rŷn ni'n cael egwyl hyd nes 11.15 a.m., pan fydd y BBC yn dod i mewn i roi tystiolaeth. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

There are items in terms of papers to note. There are quite a number of letters to note. Is everyone happy to note the papers, or are there any comments on them? No.

So, we'll now break until 11.15 a.m., when the BBC will be giving evidence. Thank you very much.

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:42 ac 11:14.

The meeting adjourned between 10:42 and 11:14.

11:10
4. Archif Ddarlledu Genedlaethol i Gymru
4. National Broadcast Archive for Wales

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Dŷn ni'n symud ymlaen at eitem 4: archif ddarlledu genedlaethol i Gymru. Croeso i'r BBC a'r tystion yma heddiw: Rhodri Talfan Davies, sef cyfarwyddwr BBC Cymru Wales, a Rhys Evans, pennaeth strategaeth ac addysg. Croeso unwaith eto i chi i'r pwyllgor yma. Fel dŷch chi'n siŵr o fod yn gwybod erbyn hyn, dŷn ni'n gofyn cwestiynau ar sail themâu gwahanol, ac felly byddwn ni'n cychwyn gyda hynny, os yw hynny'n iawn gyda chi.

Yn gyntaf gen i: oes yna fodd i chi jest rhoi rhyw fath o drosolwg o sut ydych chi wedi bod yn rhan o'r prosiect yma, a beth oedd e wedi cymryd i gyrraedd y pwynt yma, yn cydweithredu gyda'r llyfrgell genedlaethol a'r loteri, er mwyn gwneud y cais penodol yma?

Thank you very much. We move on to item 4: the national broadcast archive for Wales. I welcome the BBC and the witnesses today: Rhodri Talfan Davies, director of BBC Cymru Wales, and Rhys Evans, head of strategy and education. Welcome once more to the committee. As you probably know by now, we have questions on different themes, and we will start there, if that's okay with you. 

First of all from me: could you just provide us with some sort of overview of how you've been part of this project, and what did it take to reach this point, in working with the national library and the lottery, in making this application?

11:15

Wrth gwrs. Ac a gaf i jest gyflwyno—? Rhys sydd wedi arwain y drafodaeth ynglŷn â datblygiad yr archif dros y ddwy flynedd diwethaf, achos mae o'n bennaeth dros strategaeth ac addysg yn BBC Cymru.

Jest o ran sut ddigwyddodd y drafodaeth, yn gyntaf oll, mi oedd yna benderfyniad i adleoli'r BBC, ac felly mi ddaeth gyda hynny rhyw £100 miliwn o fuddsoddiad i weddnewid systemau technoleg BBC Cymru. Ac am y tro cyntaf, roedd y gallu gennym ni i ddigideiddio'r asedau cyflawn a oedd yn eistedd yn yr archif—rhyw 180,000 o asedau yn archif BBC Cymru.

Beth sy'n digwydd yn y broses digideiddio ydy, yn amlwg, mae yna gopi digidol yn cael ei greu, a nifer o gopïau, ac mae rhai yn cael eu cadw yn yr adeilad ac mae rhai yn cael eu cadw mewn mannau eraill, o ran diogelwch a resilience. Felly, o ran anghenion gweithredol BBC Cymru fel darlledwr, unwaith mae'r broses digideiddio yn cwpla, does yna ddim angen pellach ar gyfer yr asedau. Felly, dyma le oedd Rhys yn dod i mewn, yn rhinwedd ei swydd o ran trosolwg ar addysg. Y cwestiwn creiddiol oedd: ydyn ni jest yn cael gwared ar yr asedau hynny, neu oes yna sefydliad arall fel, wrth gwrs, y llyfrgell genedlaethol, a fyddai'n gweld gwerth yng nghadw ac yn diogelu'r hen asedau? Dyna oedd dechrau'r drafodaeth. Dwi ddim yn gwybod os oes gyda ti—.

Of course. If I could just introduce—Rhys has led the discussion on the development of the archive over the past two years, because he is head of strategy and education in BBC Cymru Wales.

Just in terms of how this debate started, well, first of all, there was a decision to relocate the BBC, and with that came around £100 million of investment in terms of transforming the technology systems within BBC Cymru Wales. And for the first time, we had the ability to digitise our assets in the archives—some 180,000 assets in the BBC Cymru Wales archive.

What happens in the digitisation process is that, clearly, a digital copy is made, a number of copies in fact, and some are retained in the building and others are held elsewhere, in terms of security and resilience. So, in terms of BBC Cymru Wales's requirements as a broadcaster, once the digitisation process is completed, there is no need to retain those assets. So, that's where Rhys comes in, given his overview of education. The core question was: do we simply dispose of those assets, or is there another institution, such as the national library, that would see a value in archiving those old assets? That was the beginning of the discussion, I think. I don't know whether you have—.

O'r pwynt yna ymlaen, fe fuodd yna drafodaethau, yn mynd yn ôl rhyw dair blynedd, rhyngof i, rhwng y BBC a phrif weithredwr y llyfrgell genedlaethol, ynghylch cyfle. A dyma beth sydd gennym ni yn fan hyn: cyfle i agor archif BBC Cymru, sy'n gronicl o fywyd cenedl yn y ddwy iaith, ac agor y cynnwys yna allan i'r cyhoedd, nid yn unig yn Aberystwyth ond hefyd yn Wrecsam, yng Nghaerdydd, yng Nghaerfyrddin ac ar draws—os yw'r prosiect hwn i ddigwydd—cannoedd o ddigwyddiadau cymunedol eraill, ynghyd â 1,500 o glipiau a rhaglenni ar-lein.

A'r ystyr hunanol—. Y peth hawsaf yn y byd—fel mae Rhodri wedi dweud—y peth hawsaf i ni fel y BBC fyddai bod wedi stopio unwaith roedden ni wedi gorffen â'r prosiect digido, oherwydd o'n safbwynt ni fel darlledwr, does dim angen i ni wneud dim byd. Ond o ystyried ein cyfrifoldebau eraill ni, o ran gweithio gyda sefydliadau cenedlaethol mewn partneriaeth, o ran ein cenhadaeth addysgiadol ni, a hefyd ein cyfrifoldeb ni tuag at ddiwylliant a hanes Cymru, roedd hwn, ac mae'n parhau i fod, yn gyfle cwbl unigryw, nid yn unig o ran archif y BBC. Mae'n bwysig i ni beidio â cholli golwg ar hyn—yr hyn rŷm ni'n sôn amdano fan hyn yw archif ddarlledu genedlaethol. Hynny yw, byddai archif y BBC yn byw cyfochr â chasgliadau clywedol ITV, S4C a darlledwyr eraill, ynghyd â'r holl gyfoeth o gasgliadau eraill sy'n bodoli yn Aberystwyth. Ac wedyn fe fyddai yna un cartref a fyddai'n gwbl deilwng o'r casgliad hwn a chasgliadau eraill.

From that point forward, there were discussions, going back about three years, between me, the BBC and the chief executive of the national library, in terms of opportunity. And this is what we have here: an opportunity to open BBC Cymru Wales's archive, which is a chronicle of a nation's life in both languages, and opening that content out to the public, not only in Aberystwyth but also in Wrexham, Cardiff, Carmarthen and across—if the project is going to happen—hundreds of other community events, as well as 1,500 clips and programmes online.

And the selfish element—. The easiest thing in the world—as Rhodri has said—the easiest thing for us, as the BBC, would have been to stop once we had finished the digitising project, because from our point of view as a broadcaster, there is no need for us to do anything. But given our other responsibilities, in terms of working with national organisations in partnership, in terms of our education mission and also our responsibility towards the culture and history of Wales, this was—and continues to be—a unique opportunity, not just in terms of the BBC's archive. It's important that we don't forget—we're talking here about a national broadcast archive. That is, the BBC's archive would live side by side with other audio collections from ITV, S4C and other broadcasters, as well as all the richness of the other collections that exist in Aberystwyth. And then there would be one home that would be completely suitable for this collection and other collections.

Allaf i jest gofyn—achos dwi ddim yn arbenigydd archifo, mae'n rhaid i fi ddweud—dŷch chi'n dweud y byddech chi'n cael gwared ar yr asedau, a dŷch chi'n creu copies digidol yn amlwg, ond beth yw'r cysyniad tu ôl i gael gwared ohono fe? Oni fyddai fe'n dda i'w gadw fe, oherwydd efallai byddai yna broblem yn y dyfodol gyda'r digideiddio, neu byddai newid mewn technoleg? Beth yw'r cysyniad tu ôl i waredu'r ased yn llwyr?

Can I just ask—because I don't have any expertise in archiving, I have to say—you say that you would have disposed of the assets, once you created digital copies, clearly, but what's the concept behind disposal? Wouldn't it make sense to retain it because there may be a problem in future with the digital copies or there may be technological changes? What's the justification for disposing of the asset completely?

Wel, mae yna wahanol asedau. Dwi ddim yna arbenigwr archif, ond fe wnaf i drio ateb, a dwi'n siŵr y daw Rhys i mewn hefyd. Mae rhai asedau ar dâp, lle mae yna broses naturiol ei fod o'n dirywio. Mae yna rai cans ffilm efallai sydd yn werth eu diogelu, oherwydd rhywbeth fyddwn ni heb baratoi amdano. Ond y gwir amdani yw bod yna arbenigedd mewnol o fewn y BBC sy'n cadw golwg ar safonau digidol ac sy'n sicrhau bod yr asedau yn cael eu cynnal yn y safon ar gyfer y cyfnod rydym ni'n gweithredu o'i fewn. So, mae yna broses o ddiweddaru'r safonau digidol wrth inni fynd ymlaen. A'r rheswm, yn amlwg, dros gadw nifer o gopïau ar safleoedd gwahanol yw petai ryw ddifrod yn digwydd neu ryw broblem dechnegol. Felly, mae yna brosesau cryf iawn o fewn y BBC i sicrhau bod y risks yna yn cael eu rheoli. 

Well, there are different assets. I'm not an expert in the archive field, but I'll try to answer, and I'm sure Rhys will come in too. There are some assets that exist on tape, where there is a natural process that it deteriorates. There are some film cans that are perhaps worth securing, because it's something that we haven't prepared for. But the truth is that there is internal expertise within the BBC that keeps an eye on digital standards and that ensures that the assets are maintained to the standard that's required for the period that we're working in. So, there is a process of updating the digital standards as we go forward. The reason for keeping a number of different copies on different sites is if there was a technical problem or damage. So, there are strong processes within the BBC to ensure that those risks are managed.

11:20

So, does dim risg, o beidio â chadw'r ased gwreiddiol, fod technoleg yn golygu na fydd e ar gael yn y dyfodol pell i ffwrdd.

So, there's no risk, in not retaining the original asset, that technology might mean that it won't be available in the distant future.

Na. Y gwir yw mai digideiddio yw'r ffordd orau o ddiogelu'r archif, achos mae yna broses naturiol gydag unrhyw ased physical ei fod o yn dirywio dros amser. So, mae'r broses ddigideiddio yn rhan o ddiogelu'r archif.

No. The truth is that digitisation is the best way of safeguarding the archive, because there is a natural process with any physical asset that it does deteriorate over time. So, the digitising process is part of looking after that archive.

A beth am yr hawlfraint a'r mynediad i'r cyhoedd, wedyn? Ydy hynny o fewn termau'r prosiect loteri?

And what about copyright and public access, then? Is that within the terms of the lottery project?

Ydy, mae o fewn termau'r prosiect. O ran y sefyllfa hawlfraint, mae gennym lyfrgell hawlfraint—copyright library—cenedlaethol yn y llyfrgell genedlaethol, ynghyd â'r tair canolfan arall, yr un yn Wrecsam, Caerdydd a hefyd yng Nghaerfyrddin, oherwydd eu bod nhw'n dod o dan reolaeth y llyfrgell. Mae gyda nhw'r hawl i wneud ein holl gynnyrch ni ar gael. Mae hynny yn unol â'r gyfraith.

Yes, it is within the terms of the project. In terms of copyright, we have a national copyright library in the national library, as well as the other three centres, one in Wrexham, Cardiff and also in Carmarthen, because they are managed by the library. They have copyright in order to make all our materials available. That is in accordance with the law.

Ar gyfer pwrpasau addysgiadol yn unig.

For educational purposes only.

Ar gyfer y pwrpasau addysgiadol hynny. Ond does gyda ni ddim yr hawl i roi ein holl gynnwys ni, er mor ddymunol fyddai hynny—does gyda ni ddim yr hawl i roi ein holl gynnyrch ni ar gael ar-lein. Mae hynny’n gwbl amhosibl am resymau cyfreithiol, oherwydd mewn nifer fawr o ddarnau o ffilm neu o recordiadau, mae yna hawliau gan rai sy'n drydydd parti, gan gerddorion, gan lenorion, gan ddramodwyr, gan ysgrifenwyr. Hynny yw, i'w roi mewn termau mwy ymarferol, efallai: petasem ni fyth yn gwneud hynny, fe fyddai yna nifer fawr o geisiadau cyfreithiol yn glanio yn Llandaf drannoeth y weithred honno.

Felly, y ffordd greadigol rŷn ni wedi mynd ati o fewn y fframwaith hawliau yw sicrhau bod y cynnwys i gyd ar gael, y 180,000 yma o asedau, yn Aberystwyth, a hefyd y tair canolfan arall. Ond yn ogystal â hynny, fe fydd yna 1,500 o raglenni a chlipiau ar gael ar-lein. Mae hwnna'n mynd i fod yn gyfraniad sylweddol iawn. Felly, fe fydd y cynnwys yna yn rhydd o unrhyw hawliau. Fe fyddwn ni'n gweithio dros gyfnod o flynyddoedd gyda'r llyfrgell i sicrhau bod y casgliadau mwyaf deniadol a mwyaf atyniadol i'r cyhoedd ar gael, a rheini'n rhydd o hawliau.

Ac ar dop hynny, wedyn, yn ogystal, mae'r llyfrgell ei hunain wedi paratoi rhaglen helaeth iawn o weithgareddau gyda grwpiau fel dysgwyr Cymraeg, grwpiau a fyddai'n elwa o'r cynnwys yma o ran y ffordd mae'n gallu hyrwyddo'r cof—grwpiau dementia, er enghraifft—er mwyn sicrhau bod yna nifer o bwrpasau yn elwa o'n cynnwys ni, a bod y cynnwys hwnnw heb unrhyw broblemau neu lyffethair hawlfraint.

For those educational purposes. But we don't have the right to provide all our content, despite how much we'd like to do that—we don't have the right to make all our content available online. It's entirely impossible for legal reasons, because in many pieces of film or recordings, third parties have rights, and musicians, authors, dramatists, writers. That is, to put it in more practical terms, perhaps: if we were ever to do that, there would be a large number of legal proceedings taking place in Llandaff the following day.

So, the creative approach that we've taken within the copyright regime is to ensure that all of the content is available, these 180,000 assets, in Aberystwyth, and the three other centres. But in addition to that, there will be 1,500 programmes and clips available online. That's going to be a very significant contribution. So, that content will be free from any copyright obligations. We will be working over a period of years with the library in order to ensure that the most attractive collections, those that are most appealing to the public, will be available, and free from copyright.

In addition to that, the library itself has prepared a broad-ranging programme of activities with groups such as Welsh learners, groups that would benefit from this content in terms of how it can help with memory—dementia groups, for example—so that a number of different groups benefit from this content, where there are no copyright barriers to that. 

Ocê, iawn. Diolch am hynny. David Melding. 

Okay, fine. Thank you for that. David Melding.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Can I just clarify: has all of your archive been digitalised, or have you regarded some parts of it as repetitive and not of interest anymore, or did you actually digitise it all?

We have digitised almost all of it, yes.

We naturally, from year to year, do a thinning process. Clearly, there are rushes and archives picked up as part of the wider production process that were never used for broadcast. In some cases, we would get rid of that. 

I asked that because of the main question I just wanted clarified. You're actually sending the digitised copy, if I can put it that way, of your archive, to the national library, if I understand.

That's correct, yes.

So, why do we retain historic materials, then, in terms of the old-fashioned tapes and such like? 

Okay. I think we need to explain there are different remits here. Our remit as a broadcaster is to digitise content for our own production, internal purposes, so that people in future, programme makers, can make programmes based on that archive content. The reason why we offered the original tapes as well as the digital copies of everything that we had digitised to the library was because of their other remit, if you like, their longer term horizon in terms of ensuring that—and this is not dissimilar to the way a library would approach digitising manuscripts or newspapers; in other words, you digitise the original, but you also hold on to the original because, in terms of the library's statutory remit, they see value in the originals as well, as well as, obviously, having a digital copy that can be made more widely available to the public.

11:25

Another good example of that is that if we were to hold, I don't know, 80 years of copies of the Western Mail, once we've digitised them, that's fine for journalistic purposes, but clearly the remit of the archive or the remit of the national library—they would want to hold on to the original copies. It is that difference of function that means that they have greater motivation to hold on to the original archives. There's no broadcast benefit to us holding on to them, and that's the difference—

No, I understand, and it's a very fair point. We could make the—you know, why hold original copies of the first edition of the Welsh Bible, or something? There are enormous reasons to do so—let me clarify that. [Laughter.] So, I understand the point you're making. But in terms of the social use, the ongoing use of the digitised material, which, as you say, is a wider remit with the library, they will do that from the digitised copy, won't they? I think we need to be fairly clear about that.

So, the second part of my question, then, is in terms of the preservation of old tapes—and we've all heard about films that corrode, and there is a real issue in terms of preserving these things—what sort of assessment did you make of that, and has that affected the discussions you've had with the library and, indeed, the offer you've made in terms of the direct or in-kind resources? Did you draw on your experience or that of your colleagues in terms of the relationship with the British Library?

In terms of the assessment, yes, certainly, before we started digitising, we had made a very full assessment of our collection in Llandaff. Overall, it's in a pretty good condition. So, the cost of the National Library of Wales having to look after—the ongoing cost—our collection isn't particularly onerous. I think it's worth bearing in mind that, within that big number of 180,000 broadcast assets or programmes, there is a huge variety of formats, so from film, where there is a greater level of risk—and where film, because of its inherent nature, degrades, there will be particular focus there—over to some of the easier, more robust formats, such as the digital tapes that we used in the late 1980s through to the early 1990s, up to 2014, at which point BBC Wales started broadcasting wholly in digital files.

In terms of the British Library, I think there's an important point to be made there. There is a clear precedent around a copyright library holding and making available a BBC collection. So, there's been an agreement in place between the BBC and the British Library since 1964 for the British Library to hold and to make available around 190,000 listenable, accessible items to the public. And that arrangement, that partnership, which is very important to the BBC, is made available on a no-cost basis. And in terms of the relationship that we have developed and hope to have on an ongoing basis with the library, that is the precedent that we will look to.

Okay. So, have you made any assessment of the preservation costs for this material? Do you regard that as the library's job, really—to make that assessment? They're experts in maintaining a collection. Because this goes to the heart of what the Minister tells us—this is where the whole model has not been really properly worked out.

I think—just two things before Rhys comes back. It's very important to underline first that this is a proposed gift to the national library. So, clearly, it is the national library that will have made its own independent assessment of the condition of the archive. It is also the national library that would determine which parts of the archive it wished to retain for archival purposes. So, it's perfectly within the scope of this offer—

11:30

Sorry?

It can. So, that filleting process, if the national library wants to do that—. There is no obligation on the national library to take the archive lock, stock and barrel and, clearly, in putting its bid together to the Heritage Lottery Fund, it has considered the current condition of that archive. It's not taken us at our word in terms of the situation; it's done its own evaluation of that.

And it's fair to say, from what I infer from what Rhys said, that the condition of the archive is considered to be reasonable and what you'd expect from materials that age and there aren't massive additional issues that have led you to dispose of it, however generous the way you describe it.

Yes. Some of the assets date back to what—the 1930s, 1940s?

The 1930s—our earliest recording that we've still got.

So, just following on quickly from what David Melding said, you wouldn't agree with what the Deputy Minister told us in the last meeting, where he said, and I quote:

'If they think they can get away with taking money out of the Welsh block, they will try that on, and I'm surprised that this project ever really emerged.' 

You would see it as a gift. So, you wouldn't see it as some—

No, we wouldn't agree with that. I think the issue here is that it's very important to understand, and I think we underline this in the note to the committee, that if the national library does not wish to receive this collection, that is clearly a matter for the national library—we made the offer—and on that basis, the proposal and the HLF bid have been put together. if the national library, for whatever reason, decides to decline that offer, our position would be that we would dispose of the archive assets. And this is really important because it's the key difference between our proposal, and I think the Deputy Minister talked of the Perivale—

—so, we do not need the physical archive for our operational purposes, which is a situation quite different to the rest of the UK.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Un peth roeddwn i jest yn moyn edrych arno oedd beth fyddai cyfraniad y sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru i'r project hwn. O beth rwy'n ei ddeall, bydd y project yn costio tua £237,000 y flwyddyn ar ôl 2024.

Thank you, Chair. One thing I wanted to look at was what would be the contribution of the public sector in Wales to this project. From what I understand, the project will cost about £237,000 a year after 2024.

Yn ei gyfanrwydd.

As a whole.

Yn ei gyfanrwydd, ie.

As a whole, yes.

Ie, a rŷch chi wedi cynnig tua £60,000 rhwng popeth—rhwng arian a hefyd cymorth. Rŷm ni'n gwybod bod yna gyfraniad o £9 miliwn yn cael ei roi i Perivale gan y BBC. Yw hynna'n iawn?

Yes, and you've offered about £60,000 between everything in terms of funding and support. We know that there is a contribution of £9 million being given to Perivale by the BBC. Is that correct?

Ocê, allwn ni ddelio â Perivale yn gyntaf? Mae Perivale yn ganolfan ar gyfer anghenion darlledu'r BBC. Hynny yw, Cymru yw'r unig genedl yn y Deyrnas Gyfunol lle mae'r BBC wedi gallu digideiddio'r archif gyfan. Felly, mae rhyw 75 y cant o'r holl asedau sydd yn eistedd yn Perivale yn asedau sydd heb eu digideiddio ac felly sydd angen eu diogelu ar gyfer pwrpasau darlledu a chynhyrchu. Nid dyna'r sefyllfa yng Nghymru. Does dim angen cadw'r asedau physical ar gyfer anghenion darlledu. Felly, achos bod Cymru ar y blaen o ran buddsoddiad digidol i weddill Prydain, does dim eisiau archif barhaol o ran yr hen asedau. So, dyna'r gwahaniaeth. Ac mae hwn yn bwynt pwysig achos dydy'r BBC ddim yn trio osgoi cost fan hyn. Os nad yw'r llyfrgell angen yr asedau, byddan nhw ddim yn cael eu cadw; byddwn ni'n cael gwared arnyn nhw. Mae Perivale yn gwbl angenrheidiol ar gyfer anghenion gweithredol y BBC.

Can we deal with Perivale first of all? Perivale is a centre for the BBC's broadcast requirements. Wales is the only nation in the UK where the BBC has been able to digitise its entire archive. So, some 75 per cent of all the assets in Perivale are non-digitised and need to be safeguarded for broadcast and production purposes. That isn't the situation in Wales. We don't need to retain the physical assets for broadcast needs in Wales. So, because Wales is ahead in terms of digital investment, as compared to the rest of the UK, we don't need a permanent archive in terms of the old assets. So, that's the difference. And this is an important point. The BBC isn't trying to avoid costs here. If the library doesn't need the assets, they won't be retained; they will be disposed of. Perivale is entirely necessary for the operational needs of the BBC.

So, rŷm ni'n gwybod bod y BBC yn rhoi £9 miliwn, fel y dywedais i—

So, we know the BBC is giving £9 million, as I said—

Dyw e ddim yn rhoi £9 miliwn. Mae'r BBC yn berchen ar Perivale, so mae Perivale yn ganolfan archif y BBC.

It's not giving £9 million. The BBC owns Perivale, so Perivale is the BBC's archive centre.

Ond jest i gael hyn yn glir: a ydy e'n costio £9 miliwn i'w redeg neu—?

But just to get this clear: does it cost £9 million to run or—?

Dyna'r ffigwr.

That's the figure.

Na, dyw hynna ddim yn gywir. Cost cyfalaf sefydlu Perivale yn ôl yn 2011 oedd £9.2 miliwn. Dyw  Perivale ddim yn costio £9 miliwn i'w redeg. Y gwahaniaeth sylfaenol arall rhwng Perivale a'r hyn sydd o dan sylw fan hyn yw nad oes yna unrhyw fynediad o gwbl i'r cyhoedd i Perivale. Mae Perivale yn ganolfan gwbl gaeedig, yn unig ar gyfer dibenion mewnol y BBC, lle holl bwrpas archif ddarlledu genedlaethol yw gwneud casgliadau'r BBC a darlledwyr eraill yn hygyrch. Felly, mae'r gymhariaeth yma yn un, os caf i ddweud, anffodus iawn, oherwydd does yna ddim unrhyw gyfatebiaeth, yn fy llygaid i, rhwng Perivale ar y naill law, a'r archif ddarlledu genedlaethol ar y llaw arall.

No, that isn't accurate. The capital cost of the establishment of Perivale back in 2011 was £9.2 million. Perivale doesn't cost £9 million to run. The other fundamental difference between Perivale and what we're discussing here is that there is no public access at all to Perivale. Perivale is an entirely closed centre, entirely for the internal needs of the BBC, where the whole purpose of a national broadcast archive is to make the BBC's collections, and other broadcasters', available and accessible. So, this comparison is very unfortunate, if I may say so, because there is no correspondence, in my mind, between Perivale and the national broadcast archive.

11:35
Rhodri Talfan Davies 11:35:21