Y Pwyllgor Iechyd, Gofal Cymdeithasol a Chwaraeon - Y Bumed Senedd

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee - Fifth Senedd


Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Dai Lloyd AM Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Darren Millar AM Yn dirprwyo ar ran Angela Burns
Substitute for Angela Burns
David Rees AM
Dawn Bowden AM
Helen Mary Jones AM
Lynne Neagle AM

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Amy Clifton Ymchwilydd
Bethan Kelham Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Claire Morris Clerc
Sarah Hatherley Ymchwilydd

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:30.

The meeting began at 09:30.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Croeso i bawb i gyfarfod diweddaraf y Pwyllgor Iechyd, Gofal Cymdeithasol a Chwaraeon yma yn y Senedd. O dan eitem 1, dwi'n falch iawn o groesawu fy nghyd-Aelodau. Dŷn ni wedi derbyn, wrth gwrs, ymddiheuriadau gan Angela Burns a hefyd gan Neil Hamilton, a dwi'n gallu cyhoeddi bod Darren Millar yn dirprwyo ar ran Angela Burns. Gallaf bellach egluro bod y cyfarfod yma, wrth gwrs, yn naturiol ddwyieithog. Gellir defnyddio'r clustffonau i gael gwasanaeth cyfieithu ar y pryd o'r Gymraeg i'r Saesneg ar sianel 1, neu i addasu lefel y sain ar sianel 2. Dŷn ni ddim yn disgwyl larwm tân, felly os bydd yna larwm tân yn canu, dylid dilyn cyfarwyddiadau'r tywyswyr. 

Welcome everyone to the latest meeting of the Health, Social Care and Sports Committee here in the Senedd. Under item 1, I'm very pleased to welcome my fellow colleagues. We have received apologies from Angela Burns and also from Neil Hamilton, and I can announce that Darren Millar is substituting on behalf of Angela Burns. Can I further explain that this meeting will be held bilingually, of course? So, you can use the headphones to hear the interpretation from Welsh into English on channel 1, or to adjust the volume on channel 2. We do not expect a fire alarm, so, if a fire alarm does sound, you should follow the instructions of the ushers.

2. Papurau i’w nodi
2. Paper(s) to note

Symud ymlaen i eitem 2, mae yna bapurau i'w nodi yn fanna. Mi fyddwch wedi darllen llythyrau gan y Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ynghylch, yn gyntaf, y defnydd o feddyginiaeth wrthseicotig mewn cartrefi gofal yng Nghymru. Rhywbeth i'w nodi fanna, Helen?

Moving on to item 2, we do have papers to note. You will have read the letter by the Minister for Health and Social Services on the use of antipsychotic medication in care homes in Wales. Is there anything to note there, Helen?

Well, yes. I just would be interested to know what the timescale for acting on the recommendations is. It all seemed quite sensible—what they were proposing to do—though I'd like to see them taking a bit more of a prescriptive approach, but I just wonder if it would be helpful at some point—whether now or—to ask him for an update, or—. Because it's another one of those where there have been lots of recommendations but it's about when things are going to happen. Not that I want to create more and more work for our—.

No, no. Well, it was quite a forceful report, Members might recall.

I know I wasn't here, but it was—you know, I helped some academics contribute to it in my previous role.

Indeed. So, I think—. Two things: I think most of the timescales we had were six months, and the health Minister is coming back for a spot of scrutiny at some point, isn't he?

We're going to request an update on various other things, including this, I think. So, that's the way to hoover things up, I think, and to keep Ministers' feet to the fire, as it were.

Reit. Yr ail bapur i'w nodi ydy'r llythyr arall gan y Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ynghylch rhestr perfformwyr Cymru gyfan. Wrth i fi ddarllen hwnna, doedd o ddim yn glir o'r saith opsiwn beth yn amlwg oedd yn mynd ymlaen, felly. Darren.

Right. The second paper to note is the other letter from the Minister for Health and Social Services on the all-Wales performers list. As I was reading that, it wasn't clear to me from the seven options what exactly was going on. Darren.

I have to say, I'm a bit concerned about this response, because it's very clear that one of the other options was the one that had the majority of support. Now, I do note that, from the consultation, many of the responses were from north Wales. 

Yes, which is obviously a significant number. But you would expect that because of the nature of traffic, if you like, in the market, as it were, for doctors. So, I'm pretty astonished that the Government seems to have disregarded very much what's been said. In fact, they seem to suggest that the NHS over the border is worse at picking up problems than over here, so we can't be assured that doctors over there are necessarily safe and properly accredited, which—. It just seems to be very odd in terms of a statement, because we could all point to examples over here of where we've had problems as well within our own system. So, I think we should challenge the Government by writing back to say we're not satisfied with the explanation as to why they're pursuing the option they're pursuing, and we do feel that there needs to be better regard paid to the outcome of the consultation. 

That's fair. I had some disquiet myself when we—. Because it wasn't clear, out of the seven options, to me, which option they were going to follow, because, as you say, option 3 was the one that most people favoured, but then they discounted that option because of subsequent evidence from England, and that discounted option 4 as well. So, can we write back seeking some further clarification, I think, on what is going on as regards the all-Wales performers list?

I think it's a little bit more than that though, isn't it? Because I think they're overemphasising this issue of safety. If you look at the scale of NHS England versus scale of NHS Wales, you're bound to have more frequent problems in a much larger pool of staff. Proportionally, I don't think it's any worse or better than the situation here.


Yes, well, we'll get them to explain themselves, I think, as part of the letter. Okay.

Reit. Symudwn ymlaen i'r trydydd papur i'w nodi, a llythyr arall gan y Gweinidog iechyd ynglŷn ag anghydraddoldebau mewn mynediad at hosbisau a gofal lliniarol. Ydych chi wedi darllen hwnna hefyd? Nodi? Ie. 

Mae yna lythyr yna hefyd ynglŷn â'r Bil Gofal Iechyd (Trefniadau Rhyngwladol)—dŷn ni wedi bod yn cael y trafodaethau, wrth gwrs, yn y Siambr ynglŷn â hwnna—a hefyd y llythyr ynglŷn â gweithredu Deddf Lefelau Staff Nyrsio (Cymru) 2016. Hapus i nodi'r rheini hefyd?

Mae yna lythyr yna hefyd gan gyngor ieuenctid Ymddiriedolaeth Gofalwyr Cymru ynghylch gwybodaeth ychwanegol i'n hymchwiliad i mewn i ofalwyr, a hefyd llythyr gan Ymddiriedolaeth Gofalwyr Cymru a Gofalwyr Cymru ynghylch asesiadau o anghenion gofalwyr, eto yn rhan o'n hymchwiliad i mewn i ofalwyr a'r effaith mae Deddf Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a Llesiant (Cymru) 2014 yn ei chael, neu ddim yn ei chael. David.

Right. Moving on to the third paper to note, which is another letter from the health Minister regarding inequalities in access to hospices and palliative care. Have you read that one also? Note? Yes.

There is also a letter there regarding the Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill—we have had some discussions in the Chamber about that, of course—and also the letter about the implementation of the Nurse Staffing Levels (Wales) Act 2016. Are you happy to note those also?

There is also a letter there from the Carers Trust Wales youth council regarding additional information for our inquiry into carers, and also a letter from Carers Trust Wales and Carers Wales regarding carers needs assessments, again as part of our inquiry into carers and the effect the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 is having, or not having. David.

I've read through the response from the Minister and I noticed that he focuses on—rightly so, to an extent—the compliance with the Act. What my concern is is there's no reference to what the implications are for other wards, which are not required under the Act. Because I've heard from staff in various locations that there are challenges in those wards as a consequence of staff needing to be on particular wards, and therefore I think we should ask whether they have done any analysis as to the implications for other wards when they're doing this assessment on compliance.

We raised those unintended consequences when the Bill came through.

Yes, I know—lots of times, to such a degree that it's probably an intended consequence, then, but anyway.

So, I think it is—. It's not in here. I think we should reflect upon whether they have done any analysis as to whether the unintended consequences have come to light.

Yes, I think that's very pertinent. And what's also pertinent is that next week we start our review into community and district nursing, so nursing will be on our agenda for the next few weeks. So, that sort of train of thought will—. But we will make that specific point in response to that.

3. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(vi) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod hwn
3. Motion under Standing Order 17.42(vi) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting


bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).


that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Reit, mae hynny wedi dod â ni i eitem 3 a chynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(vi) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod hwn. Pawb yn gytûn? Ocê.

Right, that brings us to item 3, which is a motion under Standing Order 17.42(vi) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Is everyone agreed? Okay.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 09:37.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 09:37.