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Pwyllgor Materion Cyfansoddiadol a Deddfwriaethol

Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee


Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Dai Lloyd AM
Lee Waters AM
Mick Antoniw AM Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Suzy Davies AM

Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru a oedd yn bresennol

National Assembly for Wales Officials in Attendance

Alys Thomas Ymchwilydd
Gareth Howells Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
P Gareth Williams Clerc
Sarah Sargent Ail Glerc
Second Clerk

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Mae hon yn fersiwn ddrafft o’r cofnod. Cyhoeddir fersiwn derfynol ymhen pum diwrnod gwaith.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. This is a draft version of the record. The final version will be published within five working days.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 14:30.

The meeting began at 14:30.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introduction, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Welcome to the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee meeting. The usual housekeeping rules apply. I move straight on to apologies, and I've had apologies from Mandy Jones and from Dawn Bowden. If there are no other apologies, we move on to declarations of interest. Are there any declarations of interest?

Only insofar as we use fertiliser on our farm, but perhaps that's overstepping it. 

Okay. So, we note that. [Laughter.] I'll take that as a declaration of interest.

2. Offerynnau nad ydynt yn cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 na 21.3
2. Instruments that raise no reporting issues under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3

We move on to item 2 then, instances that raise no reporting issues under Standing Orders 21.2 or 21.3. Paper 1: statutory instruments with clear reports, negative resolution instruments. The Home Loss Payments (Prescribed Amounts) (Wales) Regulations 2018. These regulations, which apply in relation to Wales, increase the maximum and minimum amounts of home loss payments—I think this is in respect of compulsory purchase—payable under the Land Compensation Act 1973 to those occupying a dwelling who have an owner's interest. These regulations also increase the amount of home loss payment payable under the Act in any other case. Any comments or observations on this?

3. Datganiadau ysgrifenedig o dan Reol Sefydlog 30C
3. Written statements under Standing Order 30C

We move on from that, then. Item 3, written statements in accordance with Standing Order 30C. These are the statements in respect of EU regulations coming in respect of the EU withdrawal regulations et cetera, and they are in a template format that we discussed last week. We will be able to look at that again in private session, just about the model, because there were a few questions raised. But if we deal with the first one, which is the Maritime Transport Access to Trade and Cabotage (Revocation) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018, you have a statement and you have a commentary. Before we go on to the handling of this, Gareth, you wanted to explain what cabotage is.

It's the right to operate sea services in a particular territory, and although shipping is generally not devolved, a small aspect of shipping is devolved, so the Welsh Government consented to the UK Government doing that small shipping devolved area in the main shipping statutory instrument—via the UK Government.

Well, we've already asked that and Gareth has promised to go away and come back with—[Interruption.] It's a matter to refer to the Counsel General in respect of the interpretation. 

Just to say that the only question I've got on this—it's fine what I've read here—is that presumably Welsh Government, at some point, should have tried to get evidence as to whether their tiny little sliver was appropriate and relevant, and I'm wondering what steps they took to—I don't want to use the word 'consult' because it's probably a bit strong, but we don't know that, do we?

We know that there is the inter-government agreement between Welsh Government and the UK Government, and the Welsh Government will consent to the UK Government in these kinds of areas. There is no further information as to what input Welsh Government had into the Welsh side of this SI. 

I think there is one point on this, and it occurs in one or two of the other statements, which is that there are references to areas where it appears the devolved issue is a very minor one but it's not actually identified in the statements, and it may be that it's worth writing just saying, 'You should, in Government statements, at least identify what the devolved area of responsibility actually is', because I don't think, with one or two of them, that we've been able to identify precisely what it is. I'll refer to it again when we get on to one of the others, but within this particular regulation there is an anomaly that's been identified.

There's a small difference between the Welsh notification and the English one. The English notification says it is revoking some EU law, and the Welsh says it's amending the EU law. It is overwhelmingly revoking, with a little bit of amending.

Okay, and it's to do with financial assistance—they've actually given a very politically vague but rough idea of what it's about. 

Okay. Other any further comments on that? If not, we move on to item 3.2, the Heavy Goods Vehicles (Charging for the Use of Certain Infrastructure on the Trans-European Road Network) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018. Again, you have the Government statement, you have the commentary as well. This statement on these regulations was laid before the Assembly on 2 November, following the laying of the regulations in the UK Parliament on 30 October. They are essentially very technical in nature. You've seen the template report.


Hapus. Okay.

Item 3.3: the Fertilisers and Ammonium Nitrate Material (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018. Again, a Government statement, commentary, and, again, a very technical nature. There are no policy issues involved that have been identified. It was laid before the Assembly on 2 November following the laying of the regulations in the UK Parliament on 1 November. Are we okay with that?

Hapus. Okay.

Item 3.4: the Tobacco Products and Nicotine Inhaling Products (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018—a statement, a commentary. You have also a letter before you from Japan Tobacco International, which I'll ask Gareth to comment on in a minute. This, again, was laid before the Assembly on 5 November, following the laying of regulations in the UK Parliament on 1 November. Any comments on this?

Just to note that the overwhelming area dealt with by these regulations is not devolved.

So, in dealing with product safety and liability and product labelling, they are not devolved, but, again, there is a small element that is devolved that has been included within these wider regulations.

The Welsh Government statement doesn't say exactly what area of the whole thing is devolved, no.

Again, I think we just need to get this and ensure that these statements do actually identify, because otherwise it seems a little bit pointless. Okay. So, we move on from that, then. Hapus?

4. Papurau i’w nodi
4. Papers to note

Okay, papers to note: a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Energy Planning and Rural Affairs to the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee regarding the UK Agriculture Bill by way of an update. Any comments on that? No. Okay. Paper 10 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs. Noted?

Just one comment on that, if I may, Chair. One of the reasons I raised this is that article 12 wasn't specifically referred to in the CRIA. The point wasn't that the work hadn't been done, but there was just no reference to it in the CRIA, and I'd have thought that of all the articles, that's probably the one that should at least reference. I mean, even if 'there are no issues identified', that is what they comment. 

Okay. Item 4.2, then, a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care on the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill. This is the matter I think that you raised, Suzy. We have the letter there and the attachments as well, which seems to comprehensively deal with the point you raised. It raises the issue as to why it wasn't incorporated in the first place, but it is there now, and you're satisfied with that? 

Well, yes. It's kind of lesson learned, so that's fine.

Item 4.3, then—no, that's the one that we've dealt with.

5. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o'r cyfarfod
5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting


bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).


that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Item 5 is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to meet in private. Is that moved?

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 14:38.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 14:38.

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