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Y Pwyllgor Cyllid

Finance Committee


Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

David Rees AM
Jane Hutt AM
Mike Hedges AM
Simon Thomas AM Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair

Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru a oedd yn bresennol

National Assembly for Wales Officials in Attendance

Gareth Howells Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
Georgina Owen Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Joanne McCarthy Ymchwilydd
Leanne Hatcher Ail Glerc
Second Clerk

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:32.

The meeting began at 09:32.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Croeso i'r cyfarfod yma. Rydym ni wedi derbyn ymddiheuriadau gan Steffan Lewis—nid oes neb arall, rwy'n meddwl, am y tro. Rwy'n atgoffa pawb fod cyfieithu i gael ar sianel 1 a hefyd i dawelu unrhyw ddyfeisiadau electronig. 

Welcome to the meeting. We have received apologies from Steffan Lewis—nobody else, I don't think, for now. I remind you all that translation is available on channel 1 and to also silence any electronic devices.

2. Papurau i'w nodi
2. Papers to note

Un o'r pethau sydd gyda ni i'w wneud y bore yma yw nodi papurau, a rhan fwyaf o'ch papurau chi yw'r papurau i nodi, so nid yw'n gymaint o waith â hynny. Yn arbennig, rŷm ni wedi derbyn tystiolaeth atodol gan y comisiynydd pobl hŷn, llythyr gan Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Gyllid ynglŷn â chyllidebau atodol—mae hwnnw'n ein rhybuddio ni am y gwaith sydd ar y gweill—a hefyd ymateb gan Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet ynglŷn â'n hadroddiad ni ar weithredu datganoli cyllidol. Mae'r ymateb gan y Llywodraeth yn derbyn tri argymhelliad oedd gyda ni. Felly, mae hwnnw'n bwydo i mewn i'r broses o lunio'r gyllideb ddrafft yn nes ymlaen yn yr haf. A chofnodion y ddau gyfarfod diwethaf, ar 19 Ebrill a 25 Ebrill. A ydy pawb yn hapus i nodi'r papurau? David.

One of the things to do this morning is to note the papers. Most of your papers are papers to note, so it's not that much work. In particular, we have received additional evidence from the older people's commissioner, a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Finance on supplementary budgets—that's reminding us of work that's forthcoming—and also from the Cabinet Secretary on our report on the implementation of fiscal devolution. The response from the Government accepts three recommendations that we had. So, that feeds into the process of producing the draft budget later on in the summer. We also have the minutes of the previous two meetings, on 19 April and 25 April. Is everyone content to note those papers? David.

I just have one question. On the letter from the Cabinet Secretary regarding the supplementary budgets, he indicates a £22.25 million flexibility fund for supporting businesses through Brexit. Do we know whether that's come as part of the £50 million transition fund that was set up, or not?

Yes, absolutely. And it could also potentially feature in the inquiry we're doing on post-Brexit funding. So, yes, we will find that out and feed back to the committee.

On the other Cabinet Secretary letter, I'm very pleased with what's down there, and I'm very pleased with the direction. Is there any way we can try and get that into some sort of rules, et cetera? It's incredibly good practice, but I confidently predict Mark Drakeford's not going to be the Cabinet Secretary for Finance forever.

Yes, the one on implementing it and what he's reporting to us twice a year and what's going to be in those. Is there any way of at least trying to get it written into a good-practice document or something, so that we can hold whoever takes over from him in the future—or whoever's in here can hold whoever takes over from him in the future—to that high standard he's set?


When I mentioned about the draft budget over the summer, I think what I had in mind was that we use these recommendations as his acceptance of them, to frame some of the discussion around that.

What he's done I think is incredibly good practice. But sometime in the future, somebody else will be doing the job and may decide that they prefer to do it in a less open manner. 

Yes. I think that's certainly a reasonable point to expect that he might change his job, but it is a Government acceptance of the recommendations. Is there anything specific, apart from using it as our guiding tool—?

Just as a guiding tool, and to try and get it written in somewhere, if only as an example of good practice.

Okay. Well, there's likely to be some changes to Standing Orders with the devolution of income tax, so we can bear it in mind for that, I think, in terms of writing it in. David. 

Just for the record, actually, it wasn't the letter—. It's PTN1, which is this first letter, just for the record.

Just looking at paper 1—'cyfalaf trafodion ariannol', and I've also seen 'cyfalaf trafodiadau ariannol'. So, we have two potential Welsh translations of a very obscure term, not that I'm—. I just had to look it up yesterday, that's all—that's why I remember that one. Just in passing—[Interruption.] Yes, just keeping me occupied. [Laughter.]

Any other points on the papers? They're fairly substantial papers, but a lot of them are additional evidence just to note and, obviously, publish as part of our evidence.

What happens because the Cabinet Secretary didn't give evidence? Is he going to give evidence?

On the Holtham and the social levy? Yes, it's just a question of waiting for that to be publicly available.

He still offered to come and give evidence, but I thought it was better if the paper was available. In fact, we do have a date pencilled in—it's 11 July.

Much later than we expected, but at least the public will know and we'll be able to discuss it with full knowledge.

Any other points? These catch up with a lot of committee work, so it's fair enough to go over them, I think. No.

3. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod
3. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting


bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).


that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Os felly, rydw i am gynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 ein bod ni'n mynd i sesiwn breifat a'n gwahardd aelodau'r cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod hwn. Pawb yn hapus? Ocê, awn i mewn i sesiwn breifat. Diolch yn fawr.

If so, under Standing Order 17.42 I propose that we go into private session and exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Everyone content? Okay, we'll into private session. Thank you very much.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 09:38.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 09:38.

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