Pwyllgor Materion Cyfansoddiadol a Deddfwriaethol

Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee


Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Dai Lloyd
David Melding
Mandy Jones
Mick Antoniw Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Alys Thomas Ymchwilydd
Gareth Howells Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
P Gareth Williams Clerc
Ruth Hatton Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Sarah Sargent Ail Glerc
Second Clerk

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 14:30.

The meeting began at 14:30.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introduction, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Okay, so the meeting of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee, Monday 9 July, 2018. The usual housekeeping rules apply, particularly in respect of translation facilities and so on. We have no apologies today—we have a full committee, so we'll move straight on unless there are any declarations of interest. There are none. 

2. Offerynnau nad ydynt yn cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 na 21.3
2. Instruments that raise no reporting issues under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3

We move straight on to item 2, negative resolution instruments. We start with the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 (References to Welsh Revenue Authority Financial Investigators) (Amendment) Order 2018, which goes with also the Tax Collection and Management (Wales) Act 2016 (Supplemental Provision) Regulations 2018. These are Orders ensuring that Welsh investigators have the same powers as Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs investigators. Are there any comments from the lawyers on it? These are just Orders to be noted unless there are any comments on them from anyone. 

We then move on to the Plant Health (Export Certification) (Wales) (Amendment) Order 2018. Is that noted? 

On to the Education (Amendments Relating to Teacher Assessment Information) (Wales) Regulations 2018—any comments on that at all? If not, then we move on to item 3, papers to note.  

3. Papurau i’w nodi
3. Papers to note

Welsh Government written statement: concordat between the Ministry of Justice and the Welsh Government. So, there's a written statement about the concordat between the Welsh Government and the Ministry of Justice setting out the working arrangements between the two organisations. I think there are one or two issues that have arisen there in respect of the—. 

Paragraph 20 of that document refers to a particular Welsh agreement in relation to devolution guidance notes. Members have a hard copy of that agreement before them. 

And the issue with that is, of course, we've not seen those particular documents. So, what's the best process, then—to write and ask to see copies of them?

Just to seek further information, yes.

And then we can note them; we can notice them at a future meeting. Any other comments on that? 

Just to make the point that we have to have some form of words like that, otherwise we can't scrutinise what's going on, because the Assembly itself appears to be cut out of the process if it's just a Government-to-Government thing. 

It is one of the things, of course, that will come up under the inter-institutional agreement that we'll be discussing later, hopefully, but if we just note that at this stage and then we can look at that at our next meeting. 

Item 3.2: correspondence relating to the EU (Withdrawal) Bill and the inter-governmental agreement. This was the letter about whether the Letwin amendment was potentially going to breach the agreement. We've had a further response back from the Cabinet Secretary for Finance on 5 July 2018. You've all seen that. I'm not sure it takes it very much further. Any comments?  

Only in terms of I don't know if it clarifies the position, which was one of our—well, the main point last time. Environmental policy made at England level, even though it applies only to England—but, obviously, the size of England vis-à-vis everybody else, it would still have the possibility of influencing policy elsewhere, and whether that actually broke any sort of inter-governmental agreement—. But we don't seem to be addressing that anywhere. I know it's philosophical as much as legal, I suppose, but—. 

I think the Secretary of State when he was in—it was a good few months ago now—did talk about the danger of our policy areas being overshadowed so much that our room for action is limited by choices made in England, in essence. So, it is an issue. 

My reading of the letter is that, the areas that are ultimately frozen for the purpose of the framework agreements—. If there's an intention to regulate, then no-one can exercise those unless you've actually got the framework agreement in place. There is a genuine agreement that, in terms of exercise of devolved powers in areas that are not going to be within that, then that obviously doesn't breach the agreement. I think it's one of those things that until you actually see what is happening and something actually happens on it—. I think the important thing is there's no point continuing the correspondence further; we're just noting it and being alert to what will come through.


Yes, I'd agree. Clearly, they're not addressing it. So, you know—. We follow your lead there, Chair. 

We've made the point, we've drawn attention to it, we've expressed our concerns, and we have to wait and see what may or may not happen in due course. 

4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o'r cyfarfod
4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting


bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).


that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

We now move on to the motion to resolve to meet in private. Is that moved and agreed? Okay, so we move into private session.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 14:35.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 14:35.