Pwyllgor Materion Cyfansoddiadol a Deddfwriaethol

Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee


Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Dai Lloyd
Mandy Jones
Mick Antoniw Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Alys Thomas Ymchwilydd
Gareth Howells Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
P Gareth Williams Clerc
Ruth Hatton Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Sarah Sargent Clerc

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 14:30.

The meeting began at 14:30.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introduction, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Welcome to the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee on Monday, 25 June 2018. By way of handling arrangements for the start—in the event of a fire alarm, Members should leave the room by marked fire exits and follow instructions from the ushers and staff; there is no test forecast today. Mobile devices are to be switched to silent. The normal translation facility arrangements apply. And in terms of apologies, we have an apology from David Melding, who is attending an event in London today and will be being substituted, we understand, in due course, by Mr Mark Reckless. Are there any declarations of interest? If there are none, we move on to item 2.

2. Offerynnau nad ydynt yn cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 na 21.3
2. Instruments that raise no reporting issues under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3

Item 2: instruments that raise no reporting issues under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3—negative resolution instruments. We start with the Regulated Services (Omissions from the Published Register) (Wales) Regulations 2018. These relate to section 38 of the Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016, maintaining a register of service providers, and provide for certain information to be omitted from the register. I just wondered if you could perhaps just explain what that is about.

Yes. The explanatory memorandum provides a helpful description of these regulations and it says that the regulations will be used 

'to omit information from the register of service providers which may identify the location of vulnerable individuals in care homes for children and in secure accommodation services.'

Okay. Are there any comments on that, or that can be laid?

3. Offerynnau nad ydynt yn cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 na 21.3 ond sydd â goblygiadau o ganlyniad i ymadawiad y DU â'r UE
3. Instruments that raise no reporting issues under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3 but have implications as a result of the UK exiting the EU

On to item 3: instruments that raise no reporting issues under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3 but have implications as a result of the UK exiting the European Union. We have the Hazardous Waste (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) Regulations 2018. These regulations amend legislation that refers to directive 2008/98/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council on waste and repealing certain directives. There are a number of items that have been identified, and I think these regulations relate to the updating method for classifying hazardous waste as 'ecotoxic'. Are there any issues?

Only to note that this subject area is likely to be covered by clause 15, the freezing regulations under the withdrawal Bill, because the inter-governmental framework talks about 'environmental quality—chemicals' being one of the areas that will require a common framework.

Gadeirydd, felly, yn dilyn o'r sylw yna, petai angen unrhyw newid ar y rheoliadau yma, rwy’n cymryd na fydd y Cynulliad yma’n gallu dechrau unrhyw newid achos mae popeth wedi’i rewi mewn rhyw rewgell am saith mlynedd.

Chair, following on from that comment, if there was any change required for these regulations, I assume that this Assembly couldn't do that because everything is in a freezer for seven years.

Ydy. Mae’r cytundeb yn dweud bod y math hwn o gyfraith yn fwy na thebyg naill ai’n llwyr neu’n rhannol yn mynd i gael ei rewi. Felly, i’r graddau bod hwn wedi cael ei rewi, ni fydd cymhwysedd gan y Cynulliad na Gweinidogion Cymru i newid yr ardal hon o’r gyfraith.

Yes. The agreement says that this kind of law is likely to be either entirely or partially frozen. So, to the extent that this is frozen, neither the Assembly nor Welsh Ministers will have competence to change this area of law.

And because the Bill doesn't yet have Royal Assent, the pre-legislation or pre-conclusion position will apply.

We then go on to the Marine Licensing (Exempted Activities) (Wales) (Amendment) Order 2018. The Order amends the Marine Licensing (Exempted Activities) Order. Now, this is another one arising from the waste framework directive and it relates to the issue of ecotoxicity. Article 2 of the Order amends the definition of the waste framework directive and article 3 revokes the Marine Licensing (Exempted Activities) (Wales) (Amendment) Order 2016. Any more comments, Gareth?

Again, these deal with environmental quality and fisheries management—

—areas likely to be covered, either in whole or in part, under the common frameworks.

Yr un un sylw â'r sylw blaenorol ynglŷn â bod popeth wedi'i rewi am saith mlynedd.

The same comment as my previous comment in terms of everything being frozen for seven years.

4. Papurau i’w nodi
4. Papers to note

We move on to item 4, then: papers to note. Item 4.1 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs relating to the Agricultural Wages (Wales) Order 2018. This is a letter that responds to points we raised concerning the procedural delays, and you'll see the response that has been given. Any comments or just note it?

Okay. Item 4.2: correspondence relating to the EU (Withdrawal) Bill and the inter-governmental agreement. You'll see that there are a number of items of correspondence that relate to the issue that we discussed previously—that is the Oliver Letwin amendment. I think that's right, isn't it? We had a response, but we've gone back to them because we need further clarification as to the issue of whether there's a breach of the inter-governmental agreement or not—certainly clarification as to the Minister's thinking on that. We'll report back on that. So, any other comments on that, other than—?


Wel, dim ond i nodi, Cadeirydd, ei fod o yn bwynt pwysig, ac fel rydych chi'n dweud yn eich ail lythyr yn fan hyn, hyd yn oed os nad ydy gwelliant Letwin yn mynd yn erbyn y cytundeb rhyng-lywodraethol, mae o o leiaf, fel rydych chi'n dweud, yn gallu dylanwadu ar gyfeiriad polisi i'r dyfodol, hyd yn oed os nad ydy o'n torri'r cytundeb nawr. Felly, mae'n hanfodol cael beth mae Mark Drakeford yn ei feddwl am y posibiliadau bod llunio polisi yn San Steffan yn gallu dylanwadu ar bolisïau yn fan hyn i'r dyfodol, hyd yn oed os nad ydyn nhw, yn eu tyb nhw, yn torri'r cytundeb. Felly, mae hwnnw'n bwynt pwysig i'w danlinellu o hyd. 

Just to note, Chair, that it is an important point, and as you state in your second letter here, even if the Letwin amendment isn't contrary to the inter-governmental agreement, it at least can influence, as you say, the policy direction for the future, even if it doesn't breach the agreement now. So, it's crucial that we hear what Mark Drakeford thinks about the possibility that the making of policy in Westminster could influence policies here for the future, even if they aren't contrary to the agreement in their view. So, that's an important point to highlight. 

Absolutely, and I think the point I made in the most recent correspondence is of course the commitments they're giving that the freezing also applies to England, and the recognition of English Ministers there that this seemed to be very much in accord with that assurance that had been given. So, I'll report back once I've got a response from the Minister, who, in fairness to him, has normally responded very quickly. Any other issues on that we can discuss in private session. 

Item 4.3: letter from the Llywydd regarding UK governance post Brexit. That's the issue relating to the Speakers' conference. I suggest we discuss that in private session.

Item 4.4: correspondence relating to the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee's inquiry into EU law in Wales: Brexit transition. There's a series of questions there and information. Unless there are any comments we can just note that. 

5. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o'r cyfarfod
5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting


bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).


that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

We now move on to item 5, which is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to meet in private. Is that agreed?

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 14:37.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 14:37.