National Assembly for Wales

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee. The evidence session that we'll be taking this morning is a continuation of our food processing and added value inquiry. I welcome the two witnesses who've come to us. I'll just do a few housekeeping things first. We have full membership today of the committee, so there are no apologies. Are there any declarations of interest?

Thank you, Chair. I'm an honorary member of the British Veterinary Association.

And I declare I'm a farmer. Some of the questioning might stray into the agricultural area, given we're talking about food. Senedd proceedings are broadcast and they're bilingual. Translation is available to you on the headsets in front of you. If you wish to use Welsh or English or alternate, it's entirely up to you as we're fully bilingual. 

Before I ask the first questions, I'll ask you to introduce yourselves—I'll start with you, Robert—and the position that you occupy. And then I'll ask Jon to do the same for the record, please.

Dr Robert Bowen from Cardiff Business School. I'm a senior lecturer in international entrepreneurship in Cardiff University.

Jon Parker. I'm director for Wales with the Food, Farming and Countryside Commission.

Thank you both. Thank you for your written evidence that has supported the questioning today. In that written evidence you seem to take contrary views as to the Welsh Government's vision on food and food processing. I'd ask you to explain that and where you think there is a divergence. I'll start with you, Jon, first of all. You talk about the social and environmental impacts rather than just the economic impacts. And then I'll ask you, Robert, to speak about the vision and your thoughts on the vision document as well, please. 

Thank you, Chair. In terms of the divergence you talk about, I think we are at a time where we've seen the food and drink vision for Welsh Government be predicated on growth. We've had growth targets from £5 billion to £7 billion, from £7 billion to £8.5 billion and so on and so forth. And I think, in some respect, we're at a time now where we are seeing pre- and post-farm-gate divergence in policy. We'll see the sustainable farming scheme come through in the next couple of weeks. Previous modelling around that scheme has been based on a potential decrease in stocking numbers. I haven’t seen the modelling for the revised scheme as yet. And then, post farm gate, we’ve had a consistent path of growth within that food and drink policy. So, I think there's a danger of us seeing some divergence, if we continue on this path, of a sustainable farming scheme that goes in one direction in terms of raw materials supply, into the processing sector, and a food and drink sector post farm gate that is continuing to follow that single metric of growth.

In my report, I’ve tried to focus a lot more on things like the resilience of the sector, because I recognise that, at this stage, we seem to be facing a number of challenges, not just as the food and drink sector, but more generally. I think that we’re seeing a time of change, and a period of what I’d call 'perpetual uncertainty', where there are many external factors that are having an influence on sectors such as the food and drink sector in Wales. We see things like businesses needing to develop more areas of resilience to a number of challenges like this, and I think that does make it more challenging to achieve things like growth as a strategy or a way of going forward.

In terms of the way I looked at the sector, it's how can we make the sector more resilient to some of the challenges around sustainability and climate change, as well as some of the economic factors that we’re also facing in the way that things are changing within society more generally. And I think, also, considering the role of the food and drink sector not just economically, but also the way in which it relates to local communities and the role of communities and how they relate to the sector as well.

This inquiry is about understanding the food processing sector, and, importantly, adding value. The economics of this you can’t detangle from it all; it’s all intertwined, is it not? But you’re quite right in your papers to highlight the climate change emergency, social challenges as well. So, how do you, in your vision of things, looking at it, take some of that apart, whilst keeping the economic model robust to keep people in the business of producing food and adding value here in Wales? I’ll ask you first of all, Robert.

In terms of food processing, I think we have some major challenges. If we want to be more sustainable, and we want to focus on things like localised supply chains, we don’t always have the infrastructure in place that will allow us to do that. And things like limited abattoirs, and things like this, or food processing plants within Wales—we often see that food needs to leave Wales in its produced format to then come back to Wales after being processed. That makes it quite challenging in terms of how we might want to be sustainable in our practices. So, there are a few areas like that that are areas that we might need to focus on in terms of how we become more sustainable.

There’s a lot of really good work happening in terms of small initiatives, where we see local schemes that encourage local procurement, and we’re seeing small producers providing foods to local schools, hospitals, et cetera. But those are very small scale, and the big challenge would be how do we replicate that across larger parts of Wales in the way in which we want to develop these localised supply chains. And I think the infrastructure question is part of that as well.

You definitely see a role for the expansion of processing here in Wales. It’s identifying those opportunities and where we seek those champions to put the investment into it. Would that be a fair assessment?

Yes, I think that would be a fair assessment in the one sense, but I also think that we need to look at areas where there may be gaps within the sector as well, in terms of are there specific activities within the sector where we need to have more help. There are certain activities that are not there that can help us to achieve more sustainability or make sure that we have more localised supply chains.

We’re not on our own in Wales in needing to pivot to what I would look to as a holistic strategy. We’ve had the visions, and what I would say is that looking towards a more wholesome holistic strategy for the food system as a whole, of which processing is part, of which the social and health element has an equal stake as well, is critical in terms of how we move forward.

If we look to Northern Ireland, and what Minister Muir has framed there in terms of his mission-based strategy moving forward, I think they’ve done a pretty good job in framing the economic aspect, the food for life and well-being aspect, and the environmentally sustainable, responsible and ethical supply chains within those three missions. I think that has captured the sustainable development principles really well, and how that is taken forward is the critical thing. 

DEFRA as well, at the moment, is consulting on its food strategy. We're involved in that in terms of engaging citizens in that process, off the back of our food conversation, which we've held throughout the UK. So, there's movement across the piece in the UK. I think, in some respects, having left the EU, we're in danger of having a not-very-common common policy framework within the UK now, because we're having different policy frameworks in different administrations throughout the UK.

I'm not sure that that's helpful when, as I'm sure everyone knows around the table, the food system isn't just a Welsh food system, it's a UK, Europe and a global food system for the supply chain that resides within it. So, to have different policies throughout the UK can be slightly challenging. It might be confusing. If I draw on the work that we've done with the food conversation with citizens throughout the UK, what we found was a resounding note from them that they want a holistic UK baseline strategy that is supported by a devolved strategy for key devolved elements, if you want to put it like that, or geographical differences.

So, if you have that strategy—this is my final point to you—how do you actually measure it? It's all well and good coming up with the good soundbites and everything about a national strategy—and by 'national', I mean a UK-wide strategy—supplemented by the devolved administrations putting their unique selling points on it, but how do we measure the success of the strategies so that we get to the position where we are genuinely adding value but meeting the challenges of today, such as the social challenges and the environmental challenges?

That's been talked about in this forum. José from HCC touched on it last week about sales being a single metric and having its own difficulties in terms of the performance of the sector holistically. So, to some degree—. I'll come back to Wales on this, Chair, if you don't mind, for the minute, but in some respects, the Food (Wales) Bill went some way to defining objectives and targets. Sadly, it didn't ascend, but it was a very good first go at forming objectives and targets around a number of different areas, including public food settings, including food and health, as well as economic prosperity. But how you measure those, and I think that we might come on to this in terms of evaluation, is very difficult—evaluation and monitoring.

Just before you come in, Robert, Jenny, you wanted a supplementary. 

Neither of you mentioned ultra-processed food in your papers. Obviously, we can't do a tax on ultra-processed food in Wales alone, that has to be done at the UK level. But at the moment, we've just got a Government that's exhorting the supermarkets to please be nicer and promote proper food rather than rubbish. This is a challenge, because we couldn't do this ourselves. One of the things that we can definitely measure is that people are sick because they're eating food that's not good for them. How do we address that? Clearly, we need to try to do it in Wales, but we also need to get the UK Government to step up to the plate.

Combining the answer to the previous question and your question as well, the way of measuring how we see success is very challenging because there are a number of different issues that we follow, and you rightly draw on the health issues and how we see that as well. I think that we do need to look at things holistically. Things like growing the sector have maybe been very important in recent years, but we need to look at things like productivity in terms of the sector. When it comes to the health and the social side of things as well, how communities feel in relation to the way that they fit in to the food and drink sector is also really important. I guess I didn't think so much about the ultra-processed food side because in Wales we try to promote the authenticity of Welsh food, and we do talk about good Welsh food products. We're not managing to get those out to people in all parts of society, because there's maybe an issue about affordability of food at this stage. And during the times of economic crisis that we've faced recently, people will gravitate more towards cheaper foods, and I think that's why we're seeing that it's been more difficult to focus on how the food that we're producing, and that people are buying, fits into what we consume, then, as consumers, because it does come back to affordability many times. So, if you want to maybe look at what we can do in the sector and try and make sure that we can make food more affordable for people as well, in the way in which people get access to good-quality foods.

Briefly if you could, Jon, on the supplementary.

Yes. I think you've referred to our report in terms of the economic impact of ill health from Professor Tim Jackson. I think how you measure that in terms of the impacts of ultra-processed foods on society and the causation factors of ill health through diet, moving to some of the more preventative measures that we are looking for to support our health system through diet is critical in this. There's been a lot done in schools that I'm sure you're aware of in terms of Welsh Veg in Schools, and the work that Simon Wright and Carwyn Graves are pushing forward with now. More of that, I think, and building meaningful and measurable performance indicators around that across our public sector settings and our strategies.

Thank you. Sam.

Thank you. Jon, you mentioned 'holistic strategy' in one of your previous answers, and this committee obviously took evidence on Peter Fox's food Bill when that was going through. And what struck me about that was the consensus in the sector on the need for this. And I know, Dr Bowen, you mentioned in your paper the absence of a food strategy for Wales, and we recommended one in our scrutiny of Peter Fox's Bill. So, can you elaborate a little bit on that, please, and the need for it that you see? 

Well, it's something that comes up a lot in conversations that I have with people across the food and drink sector, that we don't have a clear strategy in terms of the food and drink sector. We do have, obviously, the vision for the sector, and that sets out objectives that we need to achieve, but a lot of the conversations that I've had look at the food and drink strategy as something much wider, in terms of not just the food and drink sector, but what it means to local communities, what it means in terms of bringing in aspects of the health elements as well that we've talked about—so, having that wider vision of how things fit in.

In a recent event that I co-organised with people at Cardiff Met University, looking at the food and drink sector, we also discussed this, but we also discussed the need for a wider economic development strategy in the way that we see how the food and drink sector fits into the economy of Wales more widely as well. So, I think having a much clearer strategy in terms of what we're looking to achieve, where we're going within the sector, and how that fits into the wider economy as well, gives us a better vision for how we take things forward.

Fab, and before I come to you, Jon, your response to the community food strategy in talking about that holistic approach, how does that fit into that? 

Well, yes, I think that's—. Again, the aim of the community food strategy is to look at it in a more holistic way, and I think that's certainly something to be focused on. And definitely I think that it does take a lot of the principles of things like the Well-Being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 into consideration there, because it is more of a vision for the food sector, but with communities as well and how we develop cohesive communities; how it affects Welsh language-speaking communities, for example, where there are many food businesses located in western, north-western parts of Wales, for example. So, that is good in terms of looking at a more holistic approach, and I think that's the way forward in terms of how we need to think about the sector.

Okay. Jon, any thoughts?

Yes, I think in terms of the community food strategy, Sam, it's arrived quite late in the Senedd term, but it has arrived. I think we see—. Again, I come back to we're not treating our vision as a holistic food vision for Wales, where community food should be in that as a key element of it. So, when we're talking about resilience within our food system—and I will nod to Professor Tim Lang's work here on resilience and contingency in terms of what Robert touched on as an ever-unstable world—this is where I think we're in danger of losing a little bit of ground here, in terms of not supporting the community food strategy and community food activity with the same vigour that we have within our business community. So, from my perspective, yes, we've got a community food strategy that is now separate, but if we move forward into a whole food system, strategic position or a strategy, then that is a key element of it if we are to build resilience and contingency in our food system in Wales and further afield.

And then that takes in the producer all the way through to the processor and the end product of where that food goes. So, is it the case—to try and use some civil service language—is it the case that these strategies are all siloed, rather than being together in one, being intertwined, as to how everything operates?

Yes, and look: this isn't just a civil—as an ex-Welsh Government civil servant, this isn't just a civil service issue. You've got organisations that sit outside of the civil service. So, last week, we've seen the dairy road map that Dairy UK, alongside industry, have pushed forward. In Wales, I've spent quite some time working with others in industry on a seafood road map. So, it's how all these interrelate, and you are in danger of these being in silos, and it's the debate that goes on, I think, around, 'Are we focused on placemaking and places and regions and countries, or are we focused on sectors and subsectors, or are we trying to do both?' And, I think, to step out into another inquiry that you have on growth deals, that again comes into the mix in terms of silos of activities that are going on within the growth deals, and how those all interlink, I'm not entirely sure at the moment. So, there's a huge opportunity there for that, but that co-ordination around it, I feel, is somewhat mixed.

Okay, thank you. Rob, do you have something to add there?

Just to add to that, I think that, yes, we're looking at things in silos in terms of sectors, but also geographically as well in some cases. As you mentioned growth deals, I wrote a paper where I was looking at the Swansea growth deal and how it excludes Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire as areas that are rural, and have maybe been forgotten because we have a city-based model in that respect, but that's a whole other issue, I guess. But there are dangers that we're not looking at the wider picture, I think; that's the broader aspect here, and that things all fit together. We need to make sure that, strategically, they're more joined up.

Okay, thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Okay. Hefin.

[Inaudible.]—Luke, actually. The question I was going to ask has been answered.

Okay. Luke.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. If I could direct my questions to Dr Bowen.

Robert, please, everybody.

Robert, yes, that's fine by me. In your paper, and you did mention earlier, you said the food processing sector in Wales is at a crossroads because of that period of instability in a number of areas, and you also highlighted in your paper the research in Wales and New Zealand comparing the resilience of rural small and medium-sized enterprises, and then other research suggests that rural SMEs in Wales show more passive attitudes to growth. In your conclusion, you said the support environment should be reviewed according to the types of issues businesses face. I was wondering if you could just elaborate a bit on that, please.

Yes, thanks for your question. I referred to some research that I've been doing over the last year, working with partners at the University of Waikato in New Zealand, where we looked at the resilience of rural based businesses in Wales and New Zealand. And we found that businesses generally were developing resilience, and this was in response to the multifaceted challenges that I've mentioned previously. We found that businesses generally were developing resilience, but I think in Wales, businesses were tending to be more reliant on having support available to them. Many businesses spoke very positively about the types of support that they received during COVID in different ways, and that there were some areas where some support was lacking, but that support was really important for them in making sure that they developed this resilience. What we really concluded from the work is that there was a lot of support available to help businesses to survive and come through these challenges, but the areas of support that weren't there were those to help businesses grow through these challenges as well, and maybe that's an area we could look to focus on, how we can look at helping businesses to grow out of periods of change, because there are opportunities in change as well as different challenges. So, that's maybe where the support network that's available—and it's quite a complex support network in Wales, we recognise, through different types of organisations offering support, not just Government-based, but also consultants and independent organisations—maybe there's a need for more support on the growth element within that, rather than just the survival and maintaining of operations.

Is it fair to say that that could also be relevant to the food processing sector more broadly as well?

Yes, that's right. A number of the businesses that we looked at were part of the food processing sector, yes.

Okay. In your paper, you say that more detailed support should be provided to food exporters, as well. Could you just elaborate a bit on that as well?

Yes. Export, I think, is still an important part of the food and drink sector, and when I came into the sector, I wrote my PhD looking at food export in Wales, and even though we talk about sustainability, I think we still need to recognise that there are a number of food products that we produce in Wales that are not necessarily consumed in Wales, therefore, there’s an export market for them there. There have been many challenges in recent years; I think Brexit, maybe, has had an impact in terms of how export has been able to continue within Europe, and I’ve spoken to a number of businesses that have seen challenges within that. But we must also still recognise that export is part of a strategy that we need to have because there’s demand in international markets, and it’s a way in which we can also grow the sector as well, potentially. But also it’s a way in which we can be resilient in the sector by not always focusing on the same buyers; you have multiple buyers across the world, so it spreads that risk of any changes to that system then. So, I think we do need to recognise the importance of export.

So, how do we overcome some of those barriers, then? You mentioned that Brexit was a particular cause of a number of barriers, I imagine. How do we overcome some of that? Do you think the Welsh Government has got its eye on the ball on that particular issue?

Well, one thing I'd say is that, in previous years, I've found that—. As I mentioned before, we tended to find that, in Wales, businesses were quite passive towards growth opportunities in some work that I did with Dr Wyn Morris of Aberystwyth University, where we looked at the growth of food businesses and agri businesses in Wales. So, I think that a lot of businesses are reliant on that support, if they want to look to export. And a number of businesses that I’ve spoken to in recent years have spoken very positively about the work of Welsh Government in helping businesses to go to international trade shows, providing funding and the platform for them to be present in a number of different international events, which has led, then, to creating opportunities for meeting international buyers. So, I think activities like this should continue and make sure that that kind of support is available, so that those opportunities for Welsh businesses to be opened up to the world are there then.

Yes. So, is it fair to say, based on what you've said here now and what's in your paper, that what we need is both a cultural shift in terms of the attitudes of those businesses, but also more of a structural change as well to how we approach the support for those businesses?

Well, I think the support is there already; it's just a question of making sure that that's maintained and maybe expanded to other businesses where opportunities for export could be developed. It's hard to create that cultural shift within businesses. I think it's something that we could encourage businesses to do through having that support available, but I think it is hard to create that shift. I think one of the issues that we have in Wales is that we have a number of small businesses, but we have what we call the gap in the middle, where we don't see a number of medium-sized businesses. And I think, maybe, there’s not always that mindset that businesses want to grow to a certain level. People, maybe, are happy in maintaining the kind of level of activity that they have.

So, how we change that, it's very difficult, I think. But if you can draw on the successes of local champions or businesses in the local area that have had success in doing different things—internationalising, for example—then I think that can then feed down to other businesses and they can see those opportunities then.

Okay. Jon, do you have anything to add?

Just one thing that comes to mind. From a non-devolved competency perspective, we've just seen the UK Government and the EU convene a deal, and some elements of that will contain the SPS agreement, so the sanitary and phytosanitary agreement. The eleventh hour trade and co-operation agreement sort of locked some of our food businesses out of the EU overnight. For certain products, and shellfish in particular, that was a huge challenge. That agreement needs to progress now, but there is some hope that some of our export markets might be unlocked within the EU.

Great. I'm particularly interested in what you said, Robert, about that missing middle element. It seems to me that it's not just within this sector, it's a number of sectors in Wales, actually, where we haven't bridged that gap between businesses going from smaller, perhaps more bespoke businesses, into the medium-sized businesses employing hundreds of people and being able to expand operations.

Yes, that's right. It's not confined to the sector. It's across Wales, particularly in rural parts of Wales. I live in Ceredigion, where there's maybe a lack of medium-sized businesses, where we're seeing opportunities to grow there.

Great, diolch.

Thank you, Luke. Could I just, before I ask Hannah to ask her question, on the exports points that you've both made, it's well understood that that middle sector is lacking in many areas of Wales? We have a lot of lifestyle producers when it comes to maybe some of the food that we produce. How do we capitalise on a growing middle class around the globe and export them? Because we do lack those big and medium-sized companies that can export significant volumes to make a real difference on the bottom line. What this inquiry is about is trying to retain the value here in Wales. So, rather than being a nice add-on to a headquartered company somewhere else, is there an ability for Welsh Government and the sector here in Wales to capitalise on those export opportunities in the Pacific, for example, in North America, in the middle east, or have we just got to put up with what we've got, and be content with farmers' markets in the middle of Abergavenny?

Businesses of all sizes can export. I know a number of examples of businesses in Wales that are very, very small that are exporting. It's not necessarily a question of size in terms of the nature of the business. I think we see a number of excellent examples of Welsh food producers who are selling their products around the world. It does become very challenging, I think, in terms of looking at markets much further afield. There's a level of bureaucracy that is quite difficult with certain markets. Speaking to some people who have maybe entered Japan or China, it's taken them maybe up to two years to even do the preparations that they might need to enter markets like that. Looking at closer markets—geographically close, but also culturally close markets as well—makes a lot of sense, in that there's less what we call 'geographic distance' there, and we can enter into those much easier. Markets further afield are much more challenging, and I think that businesses would then, again, require a level of support in terms of knowing the processes that they need to go through to access those kinds of markets.

Before I ask Jon to comment—Luke.

Just to come back on that point, does this come down to just the element of support for some of those small businesses? Because, obviously, looking at the different procedures for exporting, when you're a small business with a very small team, the administrative burden that that would place on your business is going to be quite significant. So, is it a matter of, say, for example, Government, through one of its arm's-length bodies—whether that's the Development Bank of Wales, or if there were to be a re-establishment of the Welsh Development Agency—is it a matter of Government making it easier for those businesses by, for example, having warehouses in different countries and helping on the administrative side of that, more than anything else? Because there's a product there to sell, it's just how do we get through the different bureaucracies around the world to be able to get those products into the market.

I've spoken a lot about support. I don't want to suggest that support only comes from Welsh Government in this way as well. Support can come through speaking to family and friends or other local businesses who've been there and done that. The governance aspect, then, has the ability to create the environment in which the support can be developed, whether that's facilitating the ways in which local businesses can engage with each other and maybe provide that support to each other. But, certainly, I think what we've seen in terms of the export side, from what I've experienced when speaking to different businesses, is that Welsh Government have played a very important role in the way in which they've been giving support to businesses in helping with understanding different markets. Because there are different connections in different parts of the world, or people who are in position in certain markets around the world who have the local market knowledge who can then pass that down to Welsh businesses looking to enter those markets. There are also things like soft landing programmes around the world, where you can work with different universities to engage in ways in which you can learn about entering certain markets and things like that. So, support can be in different ways. I don't want to give the impression that it solely comes down to Government.

Fair enough.

Jon.

I think you can have the best export programme delivered by Welsh Government in the world, but it's time bound, and that mentor or coach will leave the business, having worked with them, and then it's up to the business to maintain that export sales channel and undertake all the administration that goes with it. If we were to call it 'the missing middle', in terms of those middle-ground, middle-tier processes—.

I think there have been challenges around the administration of this. It's extremely well documented—the challenges that existed in the shellfish sector post Brexit in terms of non-tariff barriers, which I touched on with the SPS agreement, which may be alleviated. But I think there are middle-tier processors, or middle-sized processors, who have done well in the States, for example, with baked goods. So, the opportunities are there, but the challenges around it and the support provided—. Yes, there's the old analogy, you can lead a horse to water, but then there are multiple market channels open to processors that they may want to exploit, and some are easier than others.

The only thing I would just add, finally, to that is I've had experience of working with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs export attachés, and that's been a very good programme. That's been the individuals involved in that, and how they've worked with the international offices, including Welsh Government international offices, has been pretty good.

Hannah.

Thanks, Chair. I'm just going to go back to the conversation we've been having, the discussion around that so-called missing middle, and just ask if you've got, first of all, any further reflections. I recognise what you said that it's not just about Welsh Government, but particularly Welsh Government and perhaps other stakeholders. How can we incentivise growth in the food and drink businesses to plug that gap? I'm happy for either of you to go first. Jon, do you want to go first this time?

Sorry, could you frame that again?

We've had quite a bit of discussion around the so-called missing middle, and I just wondered if you've got any further reflections on how, potentially, Welsh Government could further incentivise growth in the food and drink sector, and where, perhaps, potentially you think that should be? 

One thing we haven't talked about today is the skills element and the labour force. You need that in order to facilitate growth, and that's been a challenge. Welsh Government has had its own food and drink skills programme, acknowledging the challenges within the labour market. You need personnel and you need individuals in these businesses with the expertise and the right expertise to exploit some of the opportunities. But at the same time—I'm sorry to come back to this—we're still walking into this business-focused, business-orientated support system when there's a much wider community within the food sector who should be supported equally. So, sorry to segue back to that, but that's where I see the picture.

Sorry, I hesitated because it's quite a difficult question to answer, really, in terms of how do you create that change, because I think there is partly a bit of a mindset change that may be needed within certain businesses that may want to look to grow. Because for some businesses, and particularly in the food sector where many businesses have started very small and very entrepreneurial, there's maybe not always that mindset of growing to a certain size, and people who are owner-managers of these businesses may want to keep it within their means, I think. It's often difficult to see how we can help businesses to grow into some more medium-sized businesses.

Jon rightly points out there's a skills shortage within the sector, or there are certain areas, I think, where we need to focus on developing skills, and also maybe look at ways in which we can encourage, within certain communities within Wales, that working in the food sector is something that is very valuable, and something where we need to encourage how food businesses fit into those communities as well, and have that wider vision of it. 

On that, do you think there's almost a perception challenge as well of what a career or job in the food sector potentially looks like? Going back to Jon's point around skills and upskilling, perhaps people may view it as something that is a seasonal employment opportunity, and not something that's long term and has prospects with decent terms and conditions? 

I think there's an element of that, but the food sector is an extremely broad church. So, there are opportunities for everyone to gain meaningful employment within the sector, but that needs to be framed with fair work, equitable work. It is an extremely broad church with opportunities throughout.

I think we've seen in recent years as well that we've lost a number of businesses that fit into the medium-sized mould in terms of food processing businesses. I think of places like Tillery Valley Foods, and in Llangefni as well there was—I forget the name of the organisation, but there've been different businesses that we've heard have closed down in recent years—[Interruption.]—2 Sisters, yes—thank you. I think supporting those kinds of businesses because they employ a number of people in those communities and they're very central to those communities as well, looking at businesses like these and making sure that we can maybe provide everything in terms of the conditions that they need to continue to operate, would be really important in ensuring that we don't have any gaps, then, within the sector—like I mentioned earlier, maybe infrastructure and certain elements of the sector lacking that.

One final question from me, Chair, if I may. I think it's more directed to Robert. In your paper, you talk about the localised model that you say is much more sustainable in Wales, and you also list several barriers to that, but also opportunities too in terms of further collaboration. Are there more things we can do in Wales to remove those barriers? How do we—? I don't know if it's scaling up, to go back to what you were talking about, like larger businesses, but how do we perhaps spread that model elsewhere in Wales? 

Yes, I think that's, again, a very difficult question, because I think we see that there are certain things that work on a local level and there are maybe some place-based elements that come into play there in terms of the number of businesses in a local area that are able to provide the foods that are required. If we look at localised supply chains, that's not going to be the case in all parts of Wales. So, I think the idea of scaling up different models like this isn't the type of conversation that we maybe should be having, it's maybe looking at resources in terms of different places and how we can make best use of those.

We know that we live in a globalised food supply chain as well. The UK's a net importer of foods and we need to look at where Wales fits in in the global food supply chain. I think that some of the crises that I alluded to pointed out how we have been affected by global supply chains in recent years and prices have really changed according to a number of different crises that we've seen. But I think, yes, if we can focus on promoting a lot more localised supply chains or giving the opportunities for local producers to provide local businesses like schools and hospitals and other organisations with the types of foods that we have, then we can take more control over that, and we're not then impacted by external factors to the same scale.

Hefin.

One of the things we know about very small businesses is that they are interdependent and there's a huge amount of interdependency. So, everything you're saying today is about not necessarily taking one business and growing it, it's about the supply webs that exist and the fact that they mutually depend on each other. So, given that, is it better that the Welsh Government focuses on building that bridging and bonding social capital rather than focusing on growing businesses as such? That seems to be what's coming through from what you're talking about.

I think certainly there's a role there for making sure that we can promote local businesses working together, and I think that's something that we need to get through.

That's what they do naturally, though, isn't it? That's what businesses do at that level, at that micro level. So, is there a way that the Welsh Government can foment that and make that more successful, or businesses more able to access mutual social capital?

I think they do that quite well through the cluster work and the approach the food division has taken with clusters. I've been involved with the sustainability cluster for many, many years and it's a great forum for businesses of all sizes to come together and learn and listen and collaborate. So, those mechanisms are there.

Could we be doing more?

We could, outside of the pure business sphere. What I would like to see—. We've got some great local food partnerships, we've got sustainable food places; what I would like to see is really as much support being orientated around making localism and community growing work, access to finance being one of those key elements of that, and having a viability in that sector, supporting those who want to grow food locally, whether that's through community supported agriculture or just through informal local growing. That is building resilience alongside our business sector.

But creating that community ecosystem requires both a critical mass in the ecosystem, but also those participants in the ecosystem knowing about each other. And I think you've just suggested that is happening, but could be scaled up. 

It could be scaled up, yes. And I think the important thing is—. There are various reports that you can draw on. I don't think we want to have this sort of activity going through cycles of funding. The important piece is for these groups and organisations to grow viably. There is clear evidence out there—there are reports available—that shows that community-supported agriculture works viably, it washes its face, whether it is in market garden format or otherwise. It works—not just in Wales but outside as well. So, the support that is orientated around that, I come back to my point around building resilience and contingency, I come back to the Tim Lang work again, but I make no apology for that, to build that contingency and resilience within Wales, within our food system.

Just before I ask Jenny to ask her set of questions, you touched in your responses to Hannah about skills and skills shortages. We've heard that in evidence in previous sessions. Of the five challenges facing the food processing sector to expand and grow and add value, where would you place the skills challenge for companies? Is it the No. 1 challenge, the No. 5 challenge, or No. 4, No. 3, No. 2?

Again, that's a very good question. It's difficult to—

I'll go home now, I will. [Laughter.]

It's certainly one of the higher challenges, maybe in the top three positions, if you're looking for a ranking like this, I think because there needs to be that succession of people coming into the sector and making sure that we have the right people working in the sector to go forward. There are other issues, things like productivity as well, which maybe we haven't touched upon, which is a wider issue across the UK generally, not just for the food sector, but certainly in other sectors as well, which—

But you'd say it's the top three, one of the top three challenges. 

Yes. 

And you'd agree with that, Jon? 

Yes, definitely, and I think you've had individuals giving evidence around automation, artificial intelligence and so on; that's only going to build. You're still going to need skilled individuals within the sector. I'll come back to what we were talking about at the top of this agenda, around growth. If we continue with this trajectory of growth, then we are going to need more individuals within the sector. Again, I come back to the need for skilled individuals across the whole food system, not just within the processing sector itself.

Thank you, Jon. Jenny.

I want to look at the community food strategy, which aims to increase the Welsh public sector spend on Welsh food by at least 50 per cent by 2030, which is obviously quite a challenging ask, particularly when it comes to horticulture, where food resilience is non-existent. We're currently importing water, in the form of tomatoes, from drought areas. Jon, in your paper, you talk about the need to develop the infrastructure for horticulture—not just processing but growing. Where are all these polytunnels that we need to have 12-months-of-the-year growing? Why do you think—? What are the—? How much of this is down to culture and how much is it down to lack of attention or finance? You can grow an awful lot of food on a few acres of land.

You can, but it's hard. I know first-hand. It's hard; it's not easy. If it was that easy, then everyone would be doing it. Yes, look, there are clear challenges around resilience in the horticulture sector. I'm sure you're aware of the issues in Spain and Portugal around supply from that area. We are really not resilient in our supply chains in that space at the moment.

But why aren't local authorities doing something about it? Because only Powys that I'm aware of is actually growing its own.

Yes, absolutely. There was a nice piece in Nation.Cymru on Monday around that and the work that is going on in Powys. I think you've got, if I'm—

There are other broadcasters as well. [Laughter.]

Yes, absolutely. Apologies, Chair.

I think there's a—. You land on a supply and demand and demand and supply issue. I think, from a public procurement perspective, I'd probably say: post Brexit, have we had the freedom to use all of the levers that the freedom might have given us within our public procurement frameworks and regulations to drive public procurement towards building a horticulture sector? I don't think that's happened. I think, as the Procurement Act 2023 has developed, and, I think, was enacted in February this year, I think we've yet to see some of the changes to public procurement in the UK support the horticulture sector and growth in the horticulture sector, if you're specifically talking about public procurement of goods there. So, I think once that comes into play and there are greater freedoms then we might start to move towards that demand and supply, supply and demand issue that will drive growth in the sector.

Okay. But, just going back to shellfish, the market collapsed and we weren't allowed to export to Europe. So, where was the—? Why the lack of initiative, to think, 'Oh, well, let's try and concentrate on a domestic market'? Leave aside the clunkiness of the school meals menus et cetera; nevertheless, within the hospital sector and the care home sector, there must have been an appetite for the mussels—you know, the boil-in-the-bag mussels that you can get in the supermarkets.

I think that our food culture in the UK and our desire to consume that bivalve species is not there. I think the statistic at that time was that the UK was producing 40,000 tonnes of mussel and our consumption within the UK was 4,000 tonnes. So, there's a disparity between what we're producing and what we're consuming there. You can say the same for many different types of shellfish that we land within the UK that are not consumed here and exported. So, if you want to drive citizens towards that—. I think there's been a lot of activity and promotion around that over the years. Have we really made a dent in it? We have in part. I think that COVID in itself really drove consumers and citizens to try different products through the promotion of direct sales at that time because of the restrictions on society and movement. So, we've had some sort of accidental, if you want to put it like that, movement towards trying different species, particularly of shellfish. But, as time has gone on, that's relaxed again. So, how you—

But we're up against the global food system, though, and they spend billions of pounds telling everybody to buy other stuff. So, how are we going to get beyond this? Because our food security is definitely a big issue. If we can't change the culture, well, we're going to have some very unfortunate nightmares developing.

That is a big challenge, I think. The supply and demand element, when it comes to the seafood industry in Wales, is certainly something that, as Jon pointed out, is an important issue. Maybe it comes from changing the culture early on and maybe introducing foods within schools, I think. There's some evidence to suggest that when you introduce foods to younger children then it stays with them for longer, whereas if you don't get exposed to foods at a certain age then maybe it becomes a bit of a barrier to what you might want to eat then. So, changing that culture starts early, and providing access to schools to foods like these may be a way in which we can encourage people to develop their culture for food in a different way.

Okay. But the problem we have is we still haven't come up with solutions as to how to improve our food resilience. We're just relying on imports arriving, and we've seen, in various ways, that that isn't going to go on.

I'll just draw you back, Jenny, I'm afraid, to my previous answer, that I don't think you're going to really drive this without that holistic cross-Cabinet food strategy that I really feel that we need for a whole food system change. In the food Bill, there was a call for a food commission. I think that is key. I felt that we possibly needed to go a step further and have a food commissioner, because that is the level of importance that we need to drive through our food system.

Derek Walker the future generations commissioner's 'Cymru Can' strategy has framed agroecology as being a cornerstone of this. That's great. What I want to add to that as well is that agroecology is sometimes misunderstood as a change to farming practices. Agroecology is much, much more than that. Farming practice is part of it—it's one the pillars—and agroecological transition is about a whole food system change transition, from consumer right the way back down to the point of production or the point of rearing and growing. So, that whole food system change, and how that is framed within the 'Cymru Can' strategy, I think that needs further fleshing out and explanation, and then to pull that through into what I've talked about in terms of a truly holistic, cross-Cabinet food strategy, moving forward, is of the utmost importance.

Okay. It's good to hear that on the record. But we've got good examples, for example, with this Pembrokeshire Creamery now bottling significant numbers of bottles of milk, and butter being made in Pembrokeshire, rather than taking it to England then bringing it back here. How is it—? What can we—? What's needed to actually develop that example—you know, the processing of horticulture at the very basic level of just having washing stations to get the soil off?

I think the example you used there is—. And I'll refer to the answer that was given by Huw Thomas to you, in evidence. But, using that example, that Pembrokeshire Creamery was driven by demand. So, as an existing business in terms of Puffin Produce supplying into retailers, Huw mentioned—and please correct me if I'm wrong—that the driver for creating and building Pembrokeshire Creamery was demand. So, again, it's that supply and demand element that has driven some of these new processing facilities to crop up. How we do that in horticulture, Jenny, is something quite different. Huw has already got Puffin Produce in terms of horticulture supply, as an extremely well-established business. But how we drive that in—

That's at the mechanised end, but, obviously, there's the higher value end, things like salads.

How we transpose out into the public sector and through into wanting to drive outcomes in diet and nutrition and access to healthy, affordable, nutritious food for all, that's another harder question, I think, that needs work. 

Thank you.

Thank you, Jenny. Thank you both for your evidence this morning. It will inform, obviously, the—

We have other questions. I didn't ask them, because I thought we'd—. We haven't talked about the procurement rules, for example.

That goes into the next question session.

Does it? Okay.

Yes. Thank you for your evidence this morning. We had a slight distraction, but, if there are any issues that you want to additionally raise with the committee, please do forward them to the clerking team, and, obviously, they'll be included in our report. The transcript will be sent for you to have a look at, and if there are any observations you want to make on the transcript, please, obviously, make that available to the clerking team as well, because that will be the official record. I wish you a good summer, and thank you very much.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much. Thank you.

We'll now have a short commercial break and resume at 10:40.

We're now in public session. Welcome back, everyone, to our worldwide audience, who are watching on Senedd.tv. It's a pleasure to invite our two witnesses, Julie Bishop and Mary Ann, the leader of Monmouthshire County Council, to our proceedings and our continuing inquiry into the food processing and added value inquiry that we're undertaking.

I'll invite the two witnesses to introduce themselves and state their position and the organisation that they represent for the record, and then we'll go straight into questions. If I could ask you, Julie, first, and then Mary Ann, on the audio.

Good morning, everybody. I'm Julie Bishop. I'm a consultant in public health at Public Health Wales. I'm here representing the NHS—or invited by the Welsh NHS Confederation. And probably the first thing I ought to say is that I think there might have been a little bit of crossed wires between the request of the committee and what came in and the way the confederation interpreted it, because I think there are probably plenty of people in NHS Wales who could give you far more technical information on NHS procurement than I can. But I do have some experience in this space, so I will do my best, but anything I can't answer, I'm happy to try and follow up in writing.

Thank you very much for that, Julie. Mary Ann.

Good morning, committee. Thank you for inviting me. My name is Mary Ann Brocklesby. I'm the leader of Monmouthshire County Council. And, in this instance, I'm also representing the Welsh Local Government Association as a spokesperson for the rural affairs forum.

Okay. I'll direct my opening question to you, Mary Ann, first, and then, Julie, if you could pick it up. How do your organisations work with food processors and food producers to encourage local procurement and the use of Welsh produce in the organisations that you respectively represent here today?

Thank you, Andrew. You'll be aware, and you can imagine, that it's very important for local authorities that we support our local food businesses and producers in every way we can. So, we work as individual local authorities, but we also work in consortium. In my own case, which is true for the majority of local authorities across Wales, there's a national food and drink procurement framework, which is co-ordinated and run through Caerphilly County Borough Council.

What we try and do is—. If I can list it in three different ways: firstly, we try and run fair and non-discriminatory processes, so that we treat all suppliers equally—including local suppliers—so that they can win council business fairly for good commercial reasons. One method that we have used is to split up requirements into smaller lots, which smaller suppliers can easily respond to. If I can give you an example from my own council: we put out a tender for the supply of milk, yoghurts, dairy, eggs and cheese for our schools and meals on wheels, as well as our public outlets. We split it up into 10 lots on two sides of the county, with two lots for milk, two lots for yoghurts and plant-based alternatives, two lots for eggs and cheese, that were small enough that even microbusinesses could apply, or they could apply within a consortium.

We also ensure that we understand local delivery networks and work out the tender documents, so that is included and we understand it. Soft marketing approaches are used with all our businesses, and that is fairly standardised across local authorities. And so, prior to any public tender, there is a chance for businesses to come forward, ask questions, understand the process. We have on one occasion also engaged in how we could better word and make it easier to understand for new producers or smaller producers to get past that barrier often met in procurement, where it appears to be biased towards larger producers. So, that is really around helping with the tendering process.

We are currently working in collaboration with Welsh Government, through Business Wales, to match local businesses to tender opportunities. So, being proactive in bringing them into the market. We're also trying to work smart within those rules, by breaking—. You'll know, Andrew, and I'm sure other people on the committee, that there are very clear legal grounds that you cannot use the word 'local', but we can place strong emphasis on local sourcing, sustainability, shorter supply chains, and aligning with Welsh Government goals for food resilience and climate action, and that can be part of the criteria for the selection of businesses.

Thank you. Julie.

I think, in essence, it's quite similar. So, a lot of those national procurement frameworks that were mentioned actually do include NHS organisations as well, so it's a similar kind of procurement approach. And certainly, I think, while health boards have a larger footprint than local authorities, so the definition of 'local' might be slightly different, they are all actively engaged in local food partnerships and exploring these kinds of opportunities. So, I think it's on people's agenda, but it's on their agenda alongside a number of other competing priorities, and that's likely the tension, I think, in terms of the amount of capacity that there is in the system to do the sorts of things people would like to do. So, I don't think it's a question of willingness. I think it's day-to-day challenges that are likely to be the biggest problem. And I think, in practical terms, from what we can see, it's relatively easy to—. It's that whole chain, isn't it? Whether you start at the producer to the supplier. Welsh suppliers are relatively easy to do business with. Whether the product that they are supplying has a Welsh source is a very different thing. So, I think it's also clarity about what's meant when we talk about Welsh-sourced food.

Thank you. Sam.

Thank you, Chair. Mary Ann, I'll start with you. When it comes to public procurement of Welsh food, is it a proactive decision to do that in regards to supporting the Welsh food and drink businesses and their growth? Or are there other factors that determine when it comes to public procurement of food and drink?

Thank you, Sam. That's an interesting question, because, yes, sourcing locally, but we have to remember, when you're thinking about locally, if you're resourcing as a Government or a region, it's a very different sense of local. As a Government, it's the whole of Wales; as a region, it can be region, also Wales. In my county, it can be very local, depending on the product we're looking at, or it can be county-wide, or it could be cross-border. So, thinking about procuring Welsh food, I think, is also thinking through the levels of locality that we're talking about in Wales.

Sorry, Mary Ann, can I just quickly come back?

Go on.

I appreciate that, that 'local' means different things for different tiers of governance. But when it comes to a proactive decision to buy and source Welsh produce—let's just call it 'Welsh produce' for the time being—is there an active decision to do that, knowing that it supports a Welsh business, or are there other determining factors when procuring?

That's the main determining factor, I think. But there are other factors that we'd need to take into account through the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023. So, the fair work, the decarbonisation, the social-value factors also need to be taken into account as part of that decision making.

I'd like to pick up on that point that Julie made on the supply chains. If I look at milk, for example, there is no dairy—. Sorry, there's nowhere in our county where milk can be bottled and produced and bought and then taken around to our schools. It has to go out of county and then come back in. So, that's still Welsh milk, but, nevertheless, the supply chain goes into England and comes back out again. Some of the barriers along that supply chain are our ability afterwards, for example, abattoirs, which might come up later, dairies, vegetable storage and processing, which aren't necessarily there to allow Welsh produce to remain in Wales and to be used in Wales. Does that make sense?

Okay, thank you. I'll move over to Julie, who I can see is nodding along there with what Mary Ann has said. Anything additional to add, Julie?

I think, at the end of the day, we have to recognise that there isn’t a part of the public sector that isn’t struggling to balance the books. So, these factors all appear in procurement frameworks, but so does the need to cut costs and deliver within an economic framework. So, the tension is always going to be how you balance those two things. And I think that is very much still an ongoing challenge, no matter the aspirations that I think people would have.  

Okay, thank you. Thank you, Chair. 

Okay. Luke. 

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I suppose this is following on a bit from what Sam said in his line of questioning. But I’m particularly interested in the flexibility for contracting authorities to then actually design that procurement process. Mary Ann, you mentioned all the different considerations that you have to bear in mind, and, of course, Julie, you mentioned then the need to balance the books.

So, my question was mainly going to be around, 'Well, is the flexibility there for you to be able to design that procurement framework in a way that allows you to meet all these different requirements?' I feel like that question has been answered, though, but I don’t know if there are any further reflections. Because, from what you said, Mary Ann—and I’ll start with you, if that’s okay—it sounds to me that there is flexibility, just based on the example you used of milk.

I think under the Procurement Act 2023 there is greater flexibility, because we can now consider social value, supply and location, and community benefits more explicitly in procurement decisions.

There is a cost factor. Costs can go up. They don’t necessarily have to. I’m thinking of the vegetables in schools project, where, because it was stretched across a whole number of different localities, you were able to build resilience into the supply chain, because if a certain vegetable failed in one area, because of lack of rain or whatever, it could be covered by another area. And that flexibility now is something we can build into keeping the costs down, but also ensuring that we have fresh produce going into our public sector places, particularly schools. I would say, in my county, this is exceptionally important. All our meals in primary schools for free school meals are cooked from scratch on the premises every day.

We have simplified rules, and I think that will help in the future. It’s early days. We’re still working through how we can do it together. But, I think, the focus within the Act on supporting small and medium-sized enterprises and social enterprises gives us that space to think differently about how we will engage with SMEs and social enterprises. I referred in an earlier answer to thinking about soft marketing techniques. In Monmouthshire, and in the food partnership, which we partly share with businesses across the border in Newport, we hold business forums. So, local microbusinesses and social enterprises can meet very, very early on, before any tender goes out, to discuss and think through ways of collaborating together, but also for overcoming barriers.

And, I think, the other thing is, what we have opportunities to be more flexible about is to think more strategically about how we procure our food and drink, and how we work with food and drink businesses, and align ourselves with national goals like economic growth, sustainability and local job creation. The more we can support, not just the development of horticulture, but also new entrants to farming, and the more we can support the processing and storage around vegetables, for example, the more we can support economic, social and environmental sustainability.

Yes, it was that flexibility point that I was particularly interested in, precisely for one of the reasons that you highlighted there, Mary Ann, around the size of businesses and being able to take into consideration some of those barriers for those smaller businesses. We hear all the time about procurement and the need to break up some of these contracts. I don't know, Julie, if you have any further thoughts to add. 

I would agree. I think, irrespective of what you're procuring, whilst in theory these things are possible, in practice they are sometimes a lot more difficult to do and they do take more time and capacity. The more people become familiar with this different way of working, I think that will become easier. Some of the examples that have been given about the things that you can do to facilitate it will start to happen. But I think that the other important bit is understanding almost that farm-to-fork process. There was an example given there that, in Monmouthshire, all of the school meals are cooked from scratch. That won't be the case everywhere. And that's certainly true in large parts of the NHS. You've got cook-chill, cook-freeze-type operations. So, understanding what's going on the plate and how it gets there is a fundamental component of understanding therefore what needs to be procured.

Obviously, from our point of view, thinking about it from an NHS, a health point of view, we would like to see the starting point being that what goes on the plate is something that's good for people and meets that goal, as an important one, and the other things follow. But, sometimes, what you find with these kinds of exercises, and you have a number of different criteria, is that people struggle to know which one is the most important today. And I think that some of the work that has been done to look at these kinds of frameworks, that's what people find quite hard. Is being local more important than whether it's meeting our nutritional requirements or whether it's environmentally sustainable, et cetera, et cetera? They can sometimes be complementary—they can often be complementary—but they can often be conflicting. 

Great. Thank you. Diolch.

Hannah.

Diolch, Chair. I think it was you, Mary Ann, who referenced the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act, and obviously the committee understands that the guidance is currently being developed that will sit alongside the procurement element of that legislation. I wonder if you've got any initial observations on what you think the impact of that duty will be, whether that's positive or challenging as well, but also what would you want to see in the guidance? I think it touches on your point, Julie, too, around capacity and getting used to new systems. So, is there something that sits alongside that in terms of supporting the public sector? Because clearly there are opportunities here, particularly around food, and also fair work. So, striking that balance. Julie, I'll come to you first because I am looking at you at the moment, and then I'll ask Mary Ann to come in. 

I'm sure that, ultimately, the new Act will be very beneficial, because I think it addresses some of the challenges that the old system has given us, which is basically where the only thing that mattered was price. And it puts greater prominence on all of these sorts of issues, in terms of fair work and sustainability, that we've been talking about. In a Welsh context, it seems fairly logical that the framework of the well-being of future generations Act well-being goals would be central to how that guidance is constructed, because everybody is familiar with how that operates. It covers the breadth of issues that you would want to consider. But I think that there's also something about, as you say, the whole system being set up, and it has been for as long as I've worked in the public sector, around that primacy of price. And that's culturally embedded, never mind economically driven in terms of book balancing. So, I think that there will need to be quite a lot of support to those who work in procurement within the public sector to help to think about how that is driven for change, definitely. 

On the point of guidance, I think it's quite simple: clarity. I think we need to be clear that the social partnership and public procurement Act is a duty and it's enacted in law. It will be insufficient to issue guidance that is less than that, by which I mean we need to know exactly what our legal obligations are, very clearly, without ambiguity. Guidance on policy and good practice can accompany it and it will be welcomed, but I think, more importantly, that guidance is something that we can work through together in that collaborative social partnership way, but the legal guidance, where it is ultimately most important, is that it needs to be about a law and what is written in a law, so that we, and other public sector bodies, know what is complying and what isn't and we can be clear about that.

Just the point on the guidance—developing it in that collaborative way—have you had any input in the development to date?

The WLGA has and is continuing in that process of working collaboratively with the Welsh Government. That's as it should be, and that's how we try to work across the board with the Government.

Julie.

I don't know, but I would be very surprised if there hasn't been.

Jenny.

Can I start with Julie? Because I think nowhere is the whole discussion about the cost-benefit of good food or cheap food more stark than in hospital food. Because the more nutrient-dense the food you can persuade the patient to eat, the more likely they'll be ready to go home. But against that, there's the culture of wanting to eat what they've eaten at home, which has probably brought them into the hospital in the first place. So, how are you taking yet another fresh look at hospital food to try and promote healthier food and minimise food waste?

I think you've highlighted one of the fundamental challenges in all of this, and it's equally true in terms of the work that we're doing in terms of our school meals. It isn't always easy to encourage people to eat the things that are good for them. So, there is, underpinning all of this, a body of work that needs to be done, which is certainly not straightforward, but that introduces people to the widest range of foods, develops people's palate, essentially. Because I think if we've got a community that is conditioned, almost, to eat beige food that tastes largely the same—and that is unfortunately the situation we're in in many cases—if the offer is fundamentally different to what people are familiar with, they're not going to eat it. And in a hospital context—I mean it's equally true, I'm sure, for school meals—if you've got somebody who's ill and needs to recover, the primary issue is that they eat. So, you want them to eat something, followed closely by, ideally, you want them to eat something that is healthy.

I think it's one of the fundamental challenges here that underpins all of this—and is something that's been there in all of the years I've been working in this arena—namely that food is one of those amazing things that contributes to all aspects of life, all of our well-being goals; it's almost unique in that sense. But there is a need to be clear about the primacy, I suppose, of all of those different factors. I don't think I would say this just because I'm a health person, but the primary purpose of food is to sustain life—you have to have enough of it. The secondary purpose, if you like, following close behind, is, ideally, that we want to sustain healthy life. In a hospital context, if you think about a clinical situation, if you've got a patient that you want to recover, you want them to eat. And so, what hospitals will do, what clinicians will do, nurses will do, healthcare assistants will do, is try and think about what would you like—what do you feel like? And they'll try and provide that, because you actually want people to eat.

People's experience, we hope, in hospital is a relatively small part of their life. So, if you were to contrast the significance of hospital food versus, for example, the school meal sector that local authorities are involved in, school meals will have a much more significant impact on the health and well-being—the nutritional well-being—of children than somebody's short stay in hospital when their needs might be fundamentally different, I suppose is what I'm trying to say, to what we would be advocating more generally. And that's always been one of the slight challenges, but none of that means that any of the other things we're talking about here can't equally apply. It's just about recognising that having food and eating is the first priority.

The community food strategy aims to increase Welsh public sector spend on Welsh food by at least 50 per cent by 2030. Is that for the birds? Did they consult you on this?

I'll be very honest and say I don't know quite what it is now, and I think part of that—

Perhaps you could tell us; that would be useful.

Yes. I think part of the challenge is what I said earlier, and I've sat in many meetings where different figures have been quoted, and I think it is that difference between whether you talk about food from Welsh suppliers or food from Welsh producers. One is possibly, I think, around 50 per cent, but one is more like single figures, and I think what we're seeking to achieve here is an increase in that Welsh producers component, not just the Welsh suppliers; we want food produced by Welsh farmers to appear on Welsh plates.

There is a lot of work to do in order to realise that potential, and I think one of the challenges with the community food strategy is that it does tend to emphasise this very local dimension that was mentioned earlier, whereas I think what we probably need to be thinking about—in order to think about the scale that is needed to bring about real change—is 'local' in this context means 'Wales'; not something necessarily that comes from down the road. But that's an aspiration that I think everybody—. My world is prevention; everybody agrees prevention is a good thing. Making it happen is altogether more difficult, and I think this is another one of those things I don't think anybody is going to argue with you; it chimes with people and what they want to do, but the practicalities of bringing that about are quite difficult.

Mary Ann, the procurement rules you outlined earlier to Andrew R.T. Davies clearly are promoting the ability of local firms to be able to pitch for particular bits of supplying your schools and your meals for older people at home, but how widespread is that across Wales?

There are three things there, I think. One is it's very early days. The law only came into being earlier this year. Secondly, there is a capacity and capability issue; these ways of working outlined in the Act aren't necessarily familiar for procurement professionals. Training and development is ongoing across all local authorities to bring that up to speed, but also we recognise that it cannot just be part of the job of the procurement specialists within any local authority.

This way of working needs to be embedded across all parts of the authority—to procure anything, not just food. That will take time, and it's something that I think we have to do together with the Welsh Government and public sector bodies so that good practice gets embedded, and a way of collaboration that supports Welsh businesses, producers and suppliers, but also value for money, can start to be established.

I would agree with Julie that the community food strategy, I believe, would benefit by understanding the different tiers of governance and locality, as Sam put it earlier, and understanding what can and cannot be done at either level. We do need grass-roots development through food growing, food producing from the ground to the fork, and we do need to have that way of working embedded in our schools, but it will not be enough to really support the food and drink businesses in Wales.

Just to go back to procurement, some of your pupils discovered that you were procuring chicken from Thailand—which I appreciate was a revelation to you as well—but I'm not sure how many other local authorities have followed your example of insisting on red tractor, rather than something coming from the other side of the world.

I can't answer you on that, Jenny, so I will go back and get you the answer. I don't think we are the only authority doing that. We are a deforestation-free champion, and we've worked with those pupils to develop a recipe called chickpea korma, which is now enjoyed by our school pupils across Monmouthshire, and we work with Castell Howell Foods, which has also pledged to ensure that our meat products that we procure are not fed on soya products—chicken, in particular.

Okay. How do you think we are—? What’s the thing we need to do, No. 1, to achieve this 50 per cent increase in Welsh public sector food being procured from Welsh businesses? And I'm thinking of Welsh producers, although we'd like them to be Welsh processors as well.

I think the starting point, if I could refer to the earlier discussion with Sam, is a commitment to buying Welsh-produced food that is ethical, nutritious—and drink—and can be used within the public sector. And one of the reasons I’m saying this is, if we are able to enter into contract with farmers, small businesses, in a collaborative way, then we can guarantee a chain of supply for them for up to 39 weeks a year, give or take a few weeks, and that will enable them to think about growing other parts of their business. If it’s a contract that is for five years, which is what we did with our milk and dairy, it gives them that economic stability to diversify or to improve their business, buy in what they need, either more staff or different kinds of dairy machines et cetera, that would enable them to be more competitive in a wider market, both in Wales and beyond. I don’t think that we want to keep our Welsh food and drink businesses just operating in Wales—we want them to export; we want them to be known globally.

For horticulture, it would be attractive to procure—. Well, it should be attractive for a grower to be selling to the public sector, because it’s a guaranteed market, rather than cancellation at five minutes’ notice. Nevertheless, we’re not seeing a rush of people diversifying into horticulture. So, what can the Welsh Government do to try and change that? Because, at the moment, we’re talking about numbers of providers on one hand, really.

That’s a fair point. Farmers make business decisions; they are led by the market. I think the more that local authorities and other public sectors seek out and find ways to work with farmers, either through collaborative frameworks like the Caerphilly food framework, which I mentioned earlier, or what we’re trying to do in Monmouthshire with Cardiff and Carmarthenshire on ensuring that Welsh vegetables will be used in Welsh schools—. But doing it in a collaborative fashion, because the vagaries of the climate mean that it works both ways. We have to know that that supply chain can be guaranteed. If we’re working across a number of microbusinesses, then we can switch: if one farmer, one horticultural group, cannot provide, we can switch to another.

What do I think the Welsh Government can do? I think helping us to set up those links, continuing that work that we’re doing with food businesses, to ensure that we can match suppliers to procurement processes; helping to understand what needs to be done to be switched, say, to horticulture. If I can give you one example, we know from previous research, which I'm sure you're familiar with, Jenny, that we would need about 2 per cent of the land in Wales that is already productive given over to horticulture to be able to supply the seven-a-day vegetables across Wales. We also know from research that one acre—I think I'm right—one acre of land that is organically farmed for vegetables can realise an income of around £35,000 a year for a farmer or farming family, which is commensurate with how much an upland farmer is earning at the moment across many acres. That for me is quite a compelling economic argument, if there is a market available, for farmers to test out an acre of land, even sharecrop, in order for that to happen. Some of this is being tested out in Powys, through their scheme of dividing farms, which has just started, into five hectares; farming families have just moved in, to see if they can build a livelihood on five hectares. And we're piloting small amounts of land given over by some of our tenant farmers for horticulture. Yes, it's small, yes, it will need to grow, but, if we can work on ways to incentivise this movement, I think we're in with a chance.

Thank you for putting that on the record. Do you think we can just ask you to get the WLGA to tell us how many of the vegetables being served in our schools are from Welsh suppliers at the moment?

Thank you, Jenny. Thank you, Mary Ann. Sam.

Thank you. Just a very quick question from me. Mary Ann, you've mentioned milk as an example of this—any particular food types, drink types, that are a challenge in obtaining, be they fruit, vegetables, red meat or—? Something that I've been quite passionate about is advocating for game meat to be introduced, given that it's incredibly healthy. Anything in particular, from your perspective, Mary Ann, other than dairy, which you've mentioned previously, milk?

In terms of value for money, I think red meat that is reared in Wales, reared to the nutritional standards expected, can be difficult. I'd like to go away and furnish you with a fuller answer. I think that's a very interesting question, Sam, and I don't have a full answer for you.

Okay. No, that's no problem. That'll be great. Julie, from—.

[Inaudible.]—last question. But I think there's also, obviously, a seasonality issue, which will be a problem.

Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Hefin.

Is there anything more that needs to be said about Welsh Government support for businesses that are producing food through sustainable development? Do we need to say any more that has not been said so far?

Julie.

No. I mean, I think, for me, one of the challenges that would help with this whole space is better policy alignment. So, we're talking here, you're talking here, in the context of the vision for food as a committee. We've mentioned the community food strategy, which is sort of aligned to that, and then we've got, in health, several policy areas that align to food. So, at the moment, we've got multiple parts of a jigsaw puzzle that currently don't fit together, and that means that supporting those producers to contribute to that must be incredibly difficult, because it's actually quite difficult for public sector organisations, even, to operate it. So, I think there are ways of starting to make our policy frameworks, and, therefore, the support available, map that whole journey, both the system bit and cover all those dimensions of food in a way that they don't currently.

That pretty much reflects what we heard in the previous session.

Happy with that? Mary Ann, did you want to address Hefin's question, or are you content with the general answer that Julie gave us?

I do agree with Julie. I'd like to add that I think that, given that food touches every part of our lives, it touches every part of the well-being of future generations goals, it is an economic issue, it's a rights issue, it's aligned with resilience, it's a social and environmental issue, then I do think that Wales could benefit from an overarching food policy and strategy guiding what we do.

Thank you, Mary Ann. Thank you both very much for your evidence this morning. There were two aspects that you did kindly say you'd come back to us on: Julie, the spend from the NHS generally and also the involvement in the formation of the procurement strategy, and, Mary Ann, you talked about trying to find out from colleagues on the WLGA about the use of the red tractor or assured schemes in the procurement process, which obviously you've taken a lead on in Monmouthshire with your procurement contracts. 

And also the amount of veg, Welsh veg.

Certainly. 

And the amount of Welsh vegetable spend, if that's possible, please, from the WLGA and from the NHS Confed as well, please.

Thank you both very much. A transcript will be sent to you so that you can have a look at it. Any problems, please come back to the clerks, but, other than that, that will be the record of today's meeting. Thank you both very much. 

Thank you.

Thank you very much, Andrew. 

I invite colleagues to take the papers to note. Any comments or observations? I ask every week; I live in hope. Okay, thank you very much for that. 

I ask for a motion to move into private session. We'll now move into private session. Thank you.