National Assembly for Wales

Welcome to today's meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. The public items of this meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv. A Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. The meeting is bilingual and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Are there any declarations of interest from Members? I can see there are not. 

We'll move on now to agenda item 2, which is the pre-appointment hearing for the chair of the Qualifications Wales strategic board. Please could the candidate introduce himself for the record?

Bore da. Paul Bevan.

Okay. Thank you. And thank you for the comprehensive response to our seven written questions, which has really helped us to prepare for today's session. So, Members have a series of extra questions, and I'll begin. Are there things you particularly want to change about the qualifications system in Wales, or will your main approach be one of continuity and maintaining an existing direction of travel? 

I think it's really important to start with the role of Qualifications Wales, which is there as a regulator. So, it's an independent body in terms of its operation, but the policy is set by Welsh Government. The intent of Qualifications Wales should not be to change the qualifications system itself, but to work with Welsh Government to deliver the future qualifications system that's needed for Wales. So, I don't have any particular intent. What I do think is that there are opportunities—there are always opportunities—to continue along the path that we're on in terms of the way the policy has been set in order to achieve those Welsh Government objectives across the board, not just in education. 

Okay, thank you. Questions, anyone? Okay. In your view, do any other appointments that you hold give rise to any potential or perceived conflicts of interest? If so, how would you propose to manage those? 

I don't think they do. I have a number of different appointments, both voluntary and some employment. I think I'm very careful about what I choose to do in terms of my employment to make sure that there is no conflict of interest. I sit on the board of Aberystwyth University, for example, but that's not regulated by Qualifications Wales, so I don't see anything there. And if there was something, I would obviously declare the appropriate interest. I've got two children going through school, so there will definitely be some sort of conflict of interest to declare when they go through the relevant qualifications process. But I don't see anything currently, and I'm very careful to manage my interests.

I think it's really important for public bodies to work in line with the Nolan principles and to be transparent, but, for a regulator, that probity is even more important. So, it is crucial to me that we are absolutely clear, when we do have conflicts, that we just step away, and I'm perfectly comfortable doing that if that were to occur. I don't anticipate it will, but I'm perfectly happy to do that.

Okay, thank you. And thank you again for your written response to the questions that we sent you beforehand. Just to elaborate on that, what skills and experience make you well suited for this role? 

I've had the privilege of working in the education sector—or in and around the education sector—for about 20 years now, in a variety of different roles, largely recently at a senior level reporting to board, chief exec, those sorts of things. I've built up a number of different skills, particularly around change and transformation, which I think could be relevant to the change programme that is being run across Wales at the moment and that Qualifications Wales plays an important role in—so, the qualification reforms. But also that experience of working at board level, running through boards, and understanding how governance should work in a public organisation, I think is a real skill that I could bring to Qualifications Wales.

I've got lots of experience, I feel, in the sector. I worked out in the car on the way down here that I've actually been responsible for level 1 to level 8 at some point during my career, but that doesn't mean there are no blind spots. I've had no experience working in schools, for example, so that's an area where I need to build my skills and understanding. I do feel as well, though, that, if you've worked within parts of the sector, that doesn't mean you know everything about how every bit of the sector works. So, I always like to crosscheck and understand different perspectives and a diverse series of views about any subject. I'm not the sort of person that relies on my own personal experience anyway.

Okay, thank you. Thank you for those answers. We now have some questions from Joel James, please. 

Thank you, Chair. Thanks ever so much for coming in today. I just wanted to follow on from a question the Chair asked about the relevant appointments that you have and whether or not they would be a conflict of interest. Obviously, from your application, you are involved in a number of outside bodies. Do you think that you have the time then to do this work effectively? What sort of time commitment can you give to the role?

I am involved in a number of outside bodies at the moment. It is my intent to reshuffle the pack a little bit. As I said, I undertake a balance. I've moved to this approach that I sometimes grandly call a portfolio, but which is balancing paid and voluntary and other appointments. So, my intention is to scale back on some of the paid work, really, to be able to give time to Qualifications Wales. I've managed to have an opportunity to discuss with the current chair. I understand the requirement, but I also understand that being chair of a strategic board means that, at some times, you have to give more, and I'm perfectly prepared to do that.

Perfect. So, are there any aspects of the qualifications landscape in Wales that you feel less familiar with, and how will you inform yourself about the full remit of Qualifications Wales before taking up the post?

I've mentioned the delivery of qualifications in schools, for example. That's definitely an area where I want to really understand the detail of the reform programme, but also how the delivery model is working today, and also, around that, organisations like pupil referral units; teaching outside of schools is an area that I don't have any direct experience in, so I'd be keen to look at the qualifications that are delivered there. I've had experience of delivering vocational qualifications, so I feel relatively comfortable in that environment and understanding the role that awarding bodies, colleges et cetera, play in that.

Generally, my approach to upskilling is asking a lot of questions and building that knowledge, crosschecking it—we've got a very experienced board at Qualifications Wales—so, listening and ensuring that I can continue to build that up. I'm very lucky, actually, that there'll be quite a significant period between now and the current chair stepping down, so there's an opportunity there to do a proper skills transfer as well, I think, along with working with the executive, because that executive partnership's really important in terms of upskilling as well, I think.

So, I have only got one final question, really, Chair, if I can. I was just keen to know how do you intend to make sure that Qualifications Wales intuitively understands the needs of learners.

Intuitively understands the needs of learners. Yes, it's an interesting question, actually. So, I am aware that Qualifications Wales runs a learner engagement panel, and I think that's a really good mechanism. I'm actually used to working on boards where you have a learner representative, for example, and I think that there are some interesting questions about where learners come in all the way through the different processes, because the learner voice is just so important, and not as an individual learner, but because they ask the sorts of questions that learners should be asking you, and then you have to rehearse and work through what your answers to those are.

I think Qualifications Wales is very good at working with stakeholders. It's got particularly good, actually, since the pandemic. Listening to learners through those providers is important too, because you can't engage every single learner across Wales. So, I'm not really clear on the scope of what they're doing at the moment. That's one of the things that I'm keen to find out, actually, early doors.

Thank you.

Thank you. We now have some questions from Carolyn, who's on the screen, please.

Bore da, Paul.

Bore da.

I'm just going to ask some questions expanding on the main outcomes you'd like to achieve over the course of your tenure. So, how will you measure success in the role, and what do you think success might look like towards the end of your tenure?

Looking at the three-year tenure, I think there are a few things that are really important across the board for me. So, the first is the delivery of the reforms. They've got to be effective, they've got to be well embedded within the organisation, and I think the measure for that, really, is the uptake of those reforms and making sure that we're hitting our delivery timescales.

I'd also like to see us progress along the path that Qualifications Wales is already on around ensuring that we have the right balance of made-for-Wales qualifications and qualifications that are appropriate for Wales—so, I still think they're actually made for Wales, because they're made in a way that is often for an international audience, but the right balance of those qualifications that are being delivered in Wales. So, I'd like to see us progress further along the strategy around that. And we can measure those sorts of things through increased uptake of qualifications available in Cymraeg, and assessments taken in Cymraeg, but also the right balance of those made-for-Wales and brought-in qualifications.

And then thirdly, I suppose, I really want to see Qualifications Wales having a role as a partner within the sector, and it does already, but really playing its important function. It is not the entirety of the qualifications system in Wales, but it has a really important role as a regulator to make sure that that system works effectively. That's one of the aims, isn't it, in the legislation, to have an effective and healthy system. So, that's a really important outcome to me, and I think the best judgment of that is how our stakeholders engage with us and view us, really.

Okay, thank you for the answer. Are there any aspects of the qualifications system in Wales that you believe need particular attention or improvement, and, if so, what action do you think is required?

I think the system we have and that is mapped out is really robust. I think the approach that has been taken in Wales is a really strong one, and I don't think there is a case for fundamental change, or flaws within the system at the moment. We're going to move forward into this world where you've got VCSEs alongside GCSEs, and I think getting that right is more important to me than looking to fix some sort of flaw, which I don't think exists, in the current system. What we need to do is progress forward in a way that doesn't create flaws, I think.

Do you think you'll be able to work with the education system to make sure that they are adopted in schools? I think there seems to be a little bit of concern regarding that, the VCSEs, going forward.

Yes, I hope so. I hope that we can do that across Welsh Government, Qualifications Wales, WJEC and other partners as well. There are always barriers to the adoption of anything that's new. There's a lot of listening that you need to do and a lot of communicating that you need to do. But you also need to be really clear in your direction, I think. And Welsh Government, Qualifications Wales and everybody have been clear in the direction we're going with VCSEs; it's about doing it in the right way, I think. There might be some reluctance at the moment, but I do think everybody is on board with the idea of having reformed vocational qualifications at that level, delivered in an appropriate way for schools.

I think there was concern regarding resources.

Yes. And they are intended to be designed, aren't they, so that they're appropriate to deliver in a school environment. But no school environment is the same, so getting that right is absolutely going to be critical. I would be nervous if I was in that situation. So, communication and listening are really important.

Okay, thank you, Paul. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Carolyn. We'll go over to Vaughan Gething now, please.

I think this builds on the questions that Carolyn's asked, because it's about the key challenges facing Qualifications Wales. We're going through this reform process of qualifications and the roll-out over the next few years. So, it's about asking what you think are going to be the main factors that will lead to a successful roll-out or not. I know you said you'd be nervous. I just want to be clear—I'm not putting words in your mouth, I want to understand what you mean. Are you saying you're nervous because you're worried about doing the right thing, or is it about the natural nervousness in any workplace when there's a significant change? Because I've worked in different parts of the private sector and here, and change can be uncomfortable as well as exciting. I want to be clear about, when you say that you'd be nervous, what that means, and then how that affects your perspective as the chair of Qualifications Wales, assuming final confirmation, on what is going to be critical to a successful roll-out, given that change is often disruptive and uncomfortable.

You're absolutely right. Change always creates a little bit of nerves and anxiety, and the key is getting across those. I don't see anything fundamental. The point that I was making, I think, was more that anyone would be nervous of an upcoming change.

Education is a sector that likes stability. The workforce likes stability. There's a lot of change going on. So, how would I, as chair of Qualifications Wales, get around that? Again, it's about working in partnership with the executive, but it's really important to get that clear communication going. The 'listen', 'say', setting the direction is how you get over those sorts of concerns. If people think you're going to be changing tack every week, then it becomes really, really anxious for people during a change process.

As I said, I've also been through quite a lot of change in working environments, and I think holding your nerve is really important when there is a certain amount of nervousness, but understanding when there's a difference between genuine concerns about how we do something and fundamental issues with what you're doing. And as I said in my previous answer, I don't think there are any fundamental issues with what is being done. I think it's about hitting exactly the right note. So, for me as chair, I am going to be seeking assurance all the way through that process. The qualification reforms roll-out programme is one of my top three things to get under the skin of, if I were to be appointed, because having that board-level assurance, making sure that we are crosschecking that we're doing absolutely everything with the sector, is, I think, how I as chair would make sure that we deliver that successfully.

So, communication, and it's about how and where you expect to get that. Is that feedback just from the executive, or will you expect the executive to be able to share what takes place from a local authority leadership level and from a school leadership level? I'm trying to understand how that would work in practice. Is it that you'd say, 'The executive tell me, and that's how I get my feedback', or are you expecting to be a bit more searching, saying, 'I want to understand broadly how this feedback comes to me'? And there will be all sorts of stakeholders who will want to know what you think directly as well.

Yes, absolutely. So, working in partnership with the executive doesn't mean standing behind them and just listening to what they tell you. I'm very keen to make sure that I continue to have those relationships with different people across the sector. I do think, as I said before, it's important to crosscheck what you hear, no matter who you hear it from. And learners too, because one of the challenges can be that teaching providers, whether they be in schools or anywhere else, can pass messages on to learners, which can create learner concerns as well.

So, I think there's good communication that goes on in Qualifications Wales at the moment. I can pick up on those communication channels too. They're very good at doing outreach, and I know that's previously involved the chair. That would be great to be involved in, and building on my own networks as well, to make sure that I'm having those conversations and not just listening to the executive.

Okay. It's not a point of criticism of the executive.

No, no.

Can I bring Cefin in quickly here, please?

Okay. Thank you. Vaughan, did you have more to add?

Yes. I'm interested in the point about this roll-out. I think it comes back to the point I was going to ask about, on the level of reform, and the qualifications reform being a part of it, and your point about the workforce valuing stability. I think parent and carer groups value stability as well, and they want to know, if change is being made, will this mean that the qualifications are fit for the purpose, and the teaching and learning. I'm trying to understand—. Some of this is the balance between skills and knowledge, which is a regular debate in education—how much specific knowledge do people need and what skills do people need to access new knowledge as well, and then to actually properly analyse it and use it? I'm trying to understand, in that, with the vocational and the academic qualifications that are rolling out, how you see your role in understanding how effective that is. Because, if people get results, that's one thing, but it comes back to the final area of questioning about the qualifications being fit for purpose and meeting the needs of learners.

Obviously, I'm answering this question without the detail of what's going on within the delivery programme at the moment, so I'm going to have to answer it in a bit more of a general way. Qualifications are a bit like a stepping stone, aren't they? They're there for a purpose. They're not there in and of themselves. And so, I'm really keen to make sure that we look beyond the qualification at the outcomes. There's a bit of a lack of data in the sector, isn't there, around the long-term outcomes, but we need to give the assurance to parents, to learners, that the qualifications are held in the same level of esteem as the previous qualifications. We need to be able to evidence that the best learner in the new GCSEs is achieving the same outcome that they would have in the previous GCSEs, and, equally, that there are new opportunities being opened up. And the only way we can really get into that is to understand a bit more about the destinations after qualifications.

We can benchmark, can't we, from school to college to sixth form, et cetera. We can do a bit of benchmarking from sixth form to university, but, into the employment sector, it's really hard at the moment. So, I'm keen to see if there's a broader activity, perhaps linked to the new vocational education and training strategy that's being talked about, that will give us a bit more destination data, because I think that will help us to understand the qualifications that we're being delivered, to evidence that they are of that level of esteem, and also to continue to develop, because one of the advantages of the new curriculum is that it allows us to move into a bit more of that continuous development approach.

I get that. I understand this, but the two primary purposes in the legislation for Qualifications Wales are about meeting the needs of learners and maintaining public confidence—that's what you're talking about. I'm old enough to remember GCSEs being introduced. My elder brother was in the first cohort of GCSEs. There was lots of talk then about, 'Will they be worth the same as O-levels or old Certificates of Secondary Education grade 1s?' So, I understand that as part of any change.

The final one, just to go back to your point about VCSEs, is that you made the point that you hadn't done teaching yourself in an out-of-school environment. The VCSEs are there to try and deliver in schools, but to deliver a vocational type of education in schools. We've also been looking at things where there's a pre-16 partnership with further education as well—so, you know, the junior apprenticeship programmes that exist in more than one part of the country. I'm trying to understand, within that broader framework, about how you'd expect, again, from your position as a strategic chair, to understand not just what's happening, but the point around thinking about those two primary purposes in the legislation—are these meeting the needs of learners, is this the right place for learners to go, and then how is public confidence maintained? That reform isn't always directed from the Government. The junior apprenticeship programme isn't something where the Government said, 'I require you to deliver this programme and to create it', but it is something, as it appears to us in the evidence we have, that is meeting the needs of learners, and employers appear to like it, because you get people who are engaged in an area of learning that can lead to potential work, but that isn't always in the school setting. So, I'm trying to understand VCSEs within schools, but then this other area of learning that isn't all in school. They're either part-time release or whole-time release, but it's still a pre-16 qualification. I'm interested in how you'd expect to understand what that looks like, and how you can assure yourself that there should be public confidence in that and it meets the needs of learners.

I think it's all about the landscape. It's a really interesting question, because when we settle—and I use the word 'settle' deliberately—into a situation where we have VCSEs—. We, obviously, have BTECs being delivered in schools at the moment, but where we have VCSEs, GCSEs, where there are opportunities to do junior apprenticeships—I myself have experience of delivering in an FE environment where school learners would come in on a 14 to 16 arrangement; it's a great way of transitioning into vocational—I think what we need to do is make sure that the learners have those options available to them and that there's co-ordination across the landscape. That will be what gives us the equity with the VCSEs, that they fit among those options. There is an objective, isn't there, within the policy for VCSEs and GCSEs, to have a level of equity between them, and the way that we will achieve that, I think, is by making it clear that the vocational skills that are being delivered through a VCSE match well with the knowledge that's being delivered with a GCSE.

I continue to be of the view that people who have genuine vocational skills are incredibly useful to me where I don't have them, and I certainly value people who have those skills. It means I don't need to destroy my own house. [Laughter.]

Thank you, Vaughan. We now have some questions from Natasha, please. 

Thank you so much. I just wanted to ask you—. You mentioned earlier, in Carolyn's questioning, that learner communication is very important. You also mentioned in your response to the Chair about the learner voice being a very prominent aspect of your job, and hopefully the job that you'll be getting. But I wanted to ask you what challenges you see in the future, particularly in making this a meaningful process.

Sorry, which process are you—?

Actually carrying out the job that you're going to be doing.

Okay. From a learner perspective, particularly, I think I mentioned before that having learners involved in any step is really great, because they ask you questions. The challenge, the flip side to that, is that one learner does not represent every single learner. And I think the biggest challenge about making my role a success from a learner perspective is getting enough of that learner voice in. I'm really interested. On some of these things, I can't see the data, and I want to see the data. Qualifications Wales run a post-exam feedback process where learners, parents and others can feed back how well the exams went for them after GCSEs and A-levels. I'm really interested in what the response rate is to that, because that will give us a bit of an indication of how broad we're getting in terms of learners. I'd love to see touch points across diverse groups, across the geography of Wales, across different types of learning environments as well, so that we can bring that broad voice of learners into it.

I think I would judge my success by learners who go through the system who have a fantastic and wonderful experience, but might not ever remember the name 'Qualifications Wales'. I've got no intention to make Qualifications Wales the most important thing in a learner's life. But what I would like is to be able to have conversations with people where they say, 'I'm taking this qualification, I think it's the right one, I'm enjoying that process and it's going to give me what I want in the future.' And they're the sorts of messages I'd be looking for from learners—'It's doing what it needs to do for me now, and I think it's going to do what I need for the future.'

Okay. Thank you for that. Under your chairing, what approach will Qualifications Wales be taking to work with stakeholders both inside and outside of Wales? 

I think it's really important. If I take inside of Wales for a start, and then I'll broaden that out, I think it's really important that we have close communication across the whole sector, really. The sector is going through different transitions, in 16-plus particularly, and it's really important that we do have that strong relationship. I expect to build those relationships with equivalent chairs and to build on the relationships that already exist between the executives. Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol is really important for that, I think, because joined-up qualifications and teaching are absolutely essential to arriving at the million Welsh speakers objective. So, it's building those networks and building on those networks that exist. I think they're really strong in Wales at the moment, and that's one of the nice things about working in Wales.

Beyond Wales is also really important, because a huge part of that esteem is about UK and international equitability between qualifications. There are already strong relationships with Ofqual, for example, with the Scottish Qualifications Authority and with Northern Ireland. But I think it's really important that we do engagement, a bit of benchmarking, probably, to make sure that our qualifications—including the VCSEs when they come in, because obviously it's a new brand—hold that esteem against an international benchmark that we can set as an organisation. So, I think there's a good role in terms of broadening out that engagement beyond the UK as well, actually.

Okay. Great. One thing that we often find in this committee, and others I've sat in as well, is that we are—and I'll put my hands up and say it—in Wales generally very poor when it comes to data collection. So, based on the role that, obviously, is here up for grabs, as they say, do you feel that you'll have enough capacity of staff, of funds, to be able to collate all this data? Because everything you're saying, and we're all nodding our heads, and we all think it's great, but, in reality, neither I nor the committee members want to be here—hopefully, we'll all be here—in the next three, four, five years, sitting down, talking about key performance indicators, things that you've achieved, and that data is going to be the downfall of it all.

So, it's difficult to say, isn't it, without seeing under the surface. I think that Qualifications Wales is very good at data at the moment. I think there's probably a lack of data across the sector in different things, and particularly across organisations in the sector. But Qualifications Wales produces good official statistics; it produces really clear overviews of what qualifications are being taken and what certificates are being given. I think that's already strong in the organisation. I'm not sure it is Qualifications Wales's role to act like a data body for the sector, so that's not a huge area of growth I can imagine. I think, actually, from what I've seen, we're producing good data on the right areas for Qualifications Wales at the moment.

Okay, fine. I know my colleague Joel James touched upon your other commitments, as well as things that you're doing at the moment, and you mentioned time management, and that was fine, but I'd like to know: are there any prior or current experiences or relationships that you may indeed have that perhaps could undermine, or at least be seen to undermine, your capacity to chair the Qualifications Wales board impartially and with an open mind?

No, I don't believe so. I have worked within the FE sector. I've got good relationships there with other organisations, but nothing that I would view as impinging on impartiality at all. 

Okay, thanks for that. The final question from me now, Chair: how will you maintain and potentially strengthen Qualifications Wales's relationship with the Welsh Government and protect its role as an independent regulator of qualifications?

So, I think I said right at the beginning that Qualifications Wales is independent in terms of how it operates—it is there to deliver Welsh Government policy overall, and so a really strong, open, I hope, relationship with the Cabinet Secretary and with the sponsoring unit is going to be really important to make sure that Qualifications Wales is, 'Yes, we're delivering today, but also are we lining up to deliver what needs to be delivered in the future?'

The element of independence comes down to making sure that we're managing those qualifications and the awarding bodies in the right way. I would hope that that is a relatively straightforward conversation, but it is something that we would need to maintain robustness with any Government on. Because the reason for having an independent regulator is around that trust in the system, and therefore you need to be sure that that independent regulator is able to regulate those awarding bodies in line with the policy, but able to regulate them effectively.

Okay. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Natasha. We now have some questions from Cefin, please.

Thank you, Cefin. Obviously, this committee thinks scrutiny is extremely important, and annual scrutiny even more so, so that we are kept up to date in decisions that other organisations make, along with Qualifications Wales. If the next Senedd committee decides they don't want to do annual scrutiny, how would you encourage them to do that?

I would be really disappointed to hear that. The reason I would be disappointed is because it would say to me that they don't see the fundamental roles that qualifications, not just Qualifications Wales, but the qualifications play in the landscape. It's easy to see that a qualification is just the output at the end of a curriculum-based course, but it's not; it's the whole thing, and it's the whole system that has to work. So, I would be, kindly and gently, arguing that being clear as a committee on what your qualifications regulator is doing is part of ensuring that we have an education system in Wales that performs for Wales in the short term and the long term—for employers, for learners, for providers, everybody. The qualifications need to work, otherwise the system really can't operate. So, that would be the basis of my gentle persuasion, I think.

Okay, thank you. Thank you for your answers this morning and thank you for joining us. We do really appreciate your time. You'll be sent a transcript for checking in due course. Thank you.

Thank you. Nice to meet you.

I'll now move on to item 3, which is papers to note. We have three papers to note today, full details of which are set out on the agenda and in the paper pack. Are Members content to note all papers? I can see Members are.

Moving on to item 4, I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix), that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of today's meeting. Are Members content? I can see they are. We'll now move to private.