Pwyllgor Diwylliant, Cyfathrebu, y Gymraeg, Chwaraeon, a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol

Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

22/03/2023

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Alun Davies
Carolyn Thomas
Delyth Jewell Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Hefin David
Heledd Fychan
Tom Giffard

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Amanda Wilkinson Prifysgolion Cymru
Universities Wales
Berwyn Davies Addysg Uwch Cymru Brwsel
Welsh Higher Education Brussels
Eluned Haf Celfyddydau Rhyngwladol Cymru
Wales Arts International
Mali Thomas Urdd Gobaith Cymru
Urdd Gobaith Cymru
Nia Williams Amgueddfa Cymru
Museum Wales
Oliver Carpenter Siambrau Cymru
Chambers Wales

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Marc Wyn Jones Clerc
Clerk
Rhea James Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Robin Wilkinson Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Sara Moran Ymchwilydd
Researcher

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Cyfarfu’r pwyllgor yn y Senedd a thrwy gynhadledd fideo.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:34.

The committee met in the Senedd and by video-conference.

The meeting began at 09:34.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Bore da. Hoffwn i groesawu'r Aelodau i'r cyfarfod hwn o'r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, Cyfathrebu, y Gymraeg, Chwaraeon a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol. Oes gan unrhyw Aelodau fuddiannau i'w datgan? Heledd.

Good morning. I'd like to welcome Members to this meeting of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee. Are there any declarations of interest? Heledd.

Oes, jest i nodi, yn amlwg, mae Amgueddfa Cymru yn un o'n tystion ni heddiw, lle roeddwn i'n arfer gweithio. Mi oeddwn i'n rhan o sefydlu'r memorandum of understanding rhwng Amgueddfa Cymru ac Amgueddfa Genedlaethol Iwerddon.

Yes, just to note that, clearly, Museum Wales is one of our witnesses today, and I was part of establishing the memorandum of understanding between the national museum and the National Museum of Ireland.

09:35

Diolch am nodi hwnna, Heledd. Oes gan unrhyw Aelodau eraill fuddiannau i'w datgan? Dwi ddim yn gweld bod yna.

Thank you for noting that. Are there any other declarations of interest? I see that there are not.

2. Cysylltiadau rhwng Cymru ac Iwerddon: Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr o’r meysydd addysg uwch a busnes
2. Wales-Ireland relations: Evidence session with higher education and business representatives

Felly, mi wnawn ni symud ymlaen at eitem 2. Dyma ein sesiwn cyntaf ar yr ymchwiliad ar gysylltiadau rhwng Cymru ac Iwerddon ac rydyn ni'n edrych ymlaen yn fawr at gychwyn ar y gwaith yma. Rŷn ni'n cael sesiwn yn gyntaf gyda chynrychiolwyr o'r meysydd addysg uwch a busnes. Mi wnaf i ofyn i'r tystion gyflwyno eu hunain ar gyfer y record. Mi wnaf i fynd at Oliver yn gyntaf.

We'll move on to item 2. This is our first item on Wales-Ireland relations and we're looking forward very much to starting this work. Our first session is with representatives from higher education and business. I'll ask the witnesses to introduce themselves for the record, and I'll go to Oliver first.

If you could introduce yourself, please, for the record.

Can everyone hear me?

Fantastic. My name's Oliver Carpenter. I'm the policy executive at Chambers Wales. We are focused mainly on helping businesses, all day, every day. That is what we do. And, as a result, this inquiry will be very useful into learning and to give information for you all how Wales and Ireland can work together to further business interests.

Diolch, Oliver. Thank you. I'll ask Amanda to introduce herself, please, for the record.

Amanda Wilkinson. I'm the director at Universities Wales. Universities Wales is the body representing Welsh universities.

Diolch am hwnna. Ac mi wnaf i ofyn i Berwyn.

Thank you for that. And I'll ask Berwyn to introduce himself.

Bore da. Berwyn Davies, pennaeth swyddfa addysg uwch Cymru yma ym Mrwsel, yn cynrychioli’r prifysgolion yma ym Mrwsel.

Good morning. I'm Berwyn Davies. I'm head of the Welsh Higher Education Brussels office, representing the universities here in Brussels.

Diolch ichi i gyd am fod gyda ni y bore yma. Mi wnawn ni symud yn syth at y cwestiynau, os yw hynny'n ocê, ac mi wnawn ni fynd yn gyntaf at Heledd Fychan.

Thank you to you all for being with us this morning. We'll move straight to questions, if that's okay, and we'll go first to Heledd Fychan.

Diolch, Cadeirydd, a diolch ichi i gyd am fod efo ni heddiw. Yn amlwg, mae yna gysylltiad cryf rhwng Cymru ac Iwerddon. Beth fyddwn i'n hoffi gofyn ichi i ddechrau y bore yma ydy eich barn chi o ran pwysigrwydd y cysylltiadau hyn o ran y sectorau rydych chi'n eu cynrychioli.

Thank you, Chair, and thank you all for joining us this morning. Clearly, there is a strong link and relationship between Wales and Ireland. What I'd like to ask you initially this morning is your view on the importance of these relations with regard to the sectors you represent.

Pwy sydd eisiau mynd yn gyntaf?

Who would like to go first?

Anyone who wants to go first, if you want to raise your hand. 

Mi wnaf i fynd i Amanda yn gyntaf.

I'll go to Amanda first.

So, from a university point of view, relationships with Ireland are very important. We've worked very strategically with colleagues in Ireland through the INTERREG programme. We've also undertaken quite a lot of learning with colleagues in Ireland over the years, and it's fundamentally informed the development of things like our Global Wales programme, our big international programme. So, I think, both in terms of the education international approach and research links, it's been a very important relationship for us.

Does anyone else want to go? Berwyn. Can we unmute Berwyn, please? Great.

So, just to add to that, INTERREG has definitely been an important funding source, but so have the framework programmes in the past. I wouldn't say Ireland is at the top of our list of historical partnerships, but they are very important. We've had, I think, 19 projects with Irish partners in Horizon 2020, the previous programme. We haven't really got the data for Horizon Europe in terms of relations with Ireland. But Ireland is an extremely successful country in terms of Horizon 2020. I think it reached its targets of getting €1.2 billion out of Horizon 2020. So, it's an important partner for us to partner in that European context as well, in terms of research.

Diolch am hwnna. Cyn i fi fynd yn ôl i weld a yw Oliver eisiau dweud unrhyw beth, mae Hefin eisiau gofyn cwestiwn atodol.

Thank you for that. Before I go back to see whether Oliver wants to contribute, Hefin wants to ask a question.

Yes. Can I just come back to Amanda? I'm just wondering, from a universities perspective, are there any franchised arrangements, franchised courses in Ireland—any of the kind of international arrangements that we see across the world?

Sorry, do you mean franchising within Ireland?

Yes, franchising within Ireland. Yes, or any other kind.

I don't know the answer to that, Hefin, but I can check and find out for you.

Okay. I'm just wondering about the relationships between universities here and higher education in the country and whether there's the development of the kinds of partnership links you'd see with, say, Greece or China, or anything like that.

I'm not aware of those sorts of relationships with Ireland, Hefin, but I will check, but not as commonly as you would find with other countries and other regions.

09:40

Diolch am hwnna.

Thanks for that.

Oliver, did you want to add anything to this?

Yes. I would say that, from a business perspective, a decent portion of Welsh trade is with Ireland, but there's a great opportunity for there to be more that's done through the Celtic connection and through sectors that would benefit both Ireland and Wales—so, tourism, manufacturing, travel, that kind of thing.

If I can just pick up from that point, then, what do you think needs to happen to facilitate that? What are the barriers at the moment?

That's a good question. There's the general barrier of the economy at the moment, which isn't very conducive to trade. Obviously, recently, with the Windsor framework that's recently come in with Northern Ireland, that's slightly eased trading tensions between the UK and Northern Ireland, and, as a proxy, that will affect the likelihood of Wales's trade to Northern Ireland and therefore Wales to Ireland as well. 

I would say that one of the barriers is, therefore, the economy, and I would say partially its infrastructure. We know that soon in Wales we're going to hopefully be getting a free port, potentially, an economic investment zone, and that will help as well. And then, also, it's probably partially political will as well. I think there needs to be more done from those in Welsh Government to push for trade with Ireland.

Thank you. If I can just pick up more generally, then, you've mentioned some of the challenges. Obviously, the B word—Brexit—is something that came through strongly in terms of the evidence received prior to this, and especially with some of the universities, in terms of projects and so on. Can I just ask, therefore, in terms of some of the challenges that you're seeing—I think it was the evidence that suggested some of the challenges between movement of students, collaboration with Erasmus, et cetera—if you could expand on some of the impacts of Brexit and some of the challenges that we need to overcome if we're to continue to develop these relationships? I don't know who might want to go first.

Berwyn neu Amanda? Amanda.

Berwyn or Amanda? Amanda.

I was going to say that Berwyn can probably answer that a little bit better than I can. In relation to Erasmus, as you know, it's obviously been a significant loss for universities, and I think we've been very pleased that we've been able to set up the Taith programme here in Wales to help support those mobilities. Of course, it can't exactly replicate Erasmus. But, we do have, I think, over and above other UK nations, more levers to support mobility, and that is important to us. And, of course, Irish students are treated as home students, so that's also very helpful.

So, we haven't got the data for Taith at the moment in terms of higher education into Ireland. We've got, I believe, a global figure, and there's also, of course, the Turing programme that does allow Welsh students to go abroad, and we're looking to get data from that as well. We don't know yet whether there has been any outward mobility to Ireland, but I think, in the evidence that Aberystwyth gave, and also, I think, Bangor as well, I think Bangor accounts for about 21 per cent of Irish students in Wales, and there are key partnerships there in terms of degree mobility as well. So, the question really is to maintain and to build on those collaborations and exchanges. 

Os caf i, felly, rydych chi'n cyfeirio at y dystiolaeth gan Brifysgol Aberystwyth. Wel, mi oedd yr Athro Treasure wedi bod yn eithaf onest gyda ni ynglŷn â'i hanfodlonrwydd, efallai, fod ychydig iawn o gynnydd wedi cael ei wneud o ran sicrhau bod cysylltiadau'n parhau yn sgil Brexit, ac un o'r pethau oedd bod disgwyl i gyllid yr Undeb Ewropeaidd ar gyfer prosiectau roedd hi wedi'u rhestru ddod i ben ac nad oes llawer o obaith o barhad ar hyn o bryd. Ydy hynny'n adlewyrchu'r sector yn ehangach o ran addysg uwch, bod yna bryder gwirioneddol nad yw rhai prosiectau'n mynd i allu parhau? Eisiau deall ydw i pwy ydych chi'n meddwl ddylai fod yn edrych ar hynny, a beth ydy rôl Llywodraeth Cymru o ran hynny.

If I may, therefore, as you referred to the evidence from Aberystwyth University, well, Professor Treasure was quite honest with us in terms of her discontent, perhaps, that very little progress had been made in terms of ensuring that relations continued as a result of Brexit, and one of the issues was that European Union funding for the projects that she listed was expected to come to an end and that there isn't a great deal of hope for a continuation of those projects at the moment. Does that reflect the sector's view more widely, that there is genuine concern that some projects aren't going to be able to continue? I want to understand who you think should be looking at these issues and what the role of the Welsh Government is in that regard.  

09:45

Mae'r Llywodraeth wedi bod yn weithgar yn gwneud cymaint ag y gallan nhw, er enghraifft, gyda chreu'r gronfa newydd yma, Agile Cymru, sydd yn ceisio cadw rhywfaint o'r perthnasau i fynd. Dydy o ddim yn cymryd lle INTERREG o gwbl o ran faint o fuddsoddiad sydd yn gallu cael ei roi i mewn iddo fo. Felly, mi fydd yna gwestiwn mawr ynglŷn â beth fydd yr ariannu yn y dyfodol. Un o'r pethau pwysicaf i ni, dwi'n meddwl, ydy os byddwn ni'n medru ymaelodi â rhaglen Horizon Europe. Buasai hwnna'n rhoi hwb mawr i ni, i fedru parhau â'r partneriaethau yma—er enghraifft, edrych ar sut mae rhai o'r prosiectau sydd wedi cael eu hariannu trwy INTERREG wedyn yn medru mynd trwodd i roi ceisiadau i mewn i Horizon Europe, os byddwn ni'n ymaelodi fel aelod llawn o'r rhaglen honno.

The Government has been active and doing as much as they can, for example, in creating this new fund, Agile Cymru, which tries to keep some of those relationships going. It doesn't take INTERREG's place at all in terms of the investment that can be put into it. So, there will be a big question about that funding in the future. I think one of the most important things, of course, is whether we'll be able to join Horizon Europe. It would give us a great boost to be able to continue with these partnerships—for example, in looking at whether some of the projects that have been funded through INTERREG are then able to apply to Horizon Europe, if we are able to join that programme as a full member.

Diolch. Oes gan Amanda unrhyw beth i'w ychwanegu?

Thank you. Amanda, do you have anything to add?

This is part of a wider problem that we have in relation to the structural funds, but it's true for the INTERREG projects as well, that we haven't seen a replacement of funds that we might be expecting and that universities are largely cut out of eligibility for a lot of replacement funds. So, I think this is an issue, and I think it's something we need to think about very carefully here in Wales—what are the key projects that are really going to matter to us, going forward, and which of these might we wish to bridge into potential Horizon Europe projects? Because, even if we're successful in associating with the next Horizon programme, then I still think we're going to have a period where we have to get some of these projects to work and be successful. So, there's still an issue, I think, around how we bridge some of them, if we wish to keep some of these joint projects with Ireland going.

Who's leading those conversations at the moment? Obviously, concerns have been raised, and you're saying you're hoping, et cetera, but who's driving that at the moment? Do you think there's enough clarity, or are concerns being listened to? I'm just trying to understand how we can ensure that some of the unanswered questions following Brexit are addressed, so that there's clarity for the sector.

So, we've done quite a bit of work focusing on Westminster in the last three months. I do think what happens with the next round of prosperity funding does matter if we're going to keep some of these projects going. And if we can't keep them going, then we need to think fairly strategically about which of these projects are going to be the most important to us. Because, at the moment, there's not an obvious place for universities to go.

Thank you. If I may, Oliver, I saw you agreeing in terms of the funding there and clarity. Perhaps you'd want to expand in terms of your sector.

Yes, and I suppose I can also speak more generally as well. I think the main issues around Brexit with these relations is that Brexit is still actually affecting us now. You've got the Windsor framework that only just came through, and that certainly helps. We know the EU has always had a pretty good relationship with Wales specifically, in terms of things that are still affecting EU and UK relations now, which expands to Wales-Ireland. You have things like the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill. With that, there's the potential for divergence away from trade, or legislation that's in keeping with EU trade policy. And in general, that might make trade more difficult between Wales and Ireland, if you want to shrink it down to the smaller scale. So, it may be more about that we're still in that state of transition that is affecting things, and so maybe it's a question about stability. I think Welsh Gov keeping a strong relationship with the EU, not in spite of UK Gov, but alongside UK Gov, is probably part of the key to making sure that those things aren't too affected. I can't speak on the shared prosperity fund, as we aren't involved enough to know.

09:50

Iawn. Grêt. Diolch am hwnna. Fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Alun Davies.

Okay. Great. Thanks for that. We'll move on to Alun Davies.

That's a cracking final line there, Oliver, that you weren't involved in the shared prosperity fund, as we understand from UK Government that everybody is, but I'll resist the temptation to pursue that this morning, everybody will be pleased to hear. But I'm interested in—. I've been reading the shared statement and action plan from Welsh Government, and I'd be interested to know from each one of you your involvement in drawing up that document that the Welsh Government has agreed with the Irish Government.

Yes, I can keep that short and sweet: we were not involved.

And do you know of any other business organisations that were involved?

We don't personally know, no, but there may have been.

So, we've been involved insofar as, obviously, we've been involved with the development of Agile, and we're involved in the regional investment partnership that Welsh Government runs as well.

Sorry, that answer wasn't very clear, I'm sorry, Amanda. My question was about the action plan, the shared statement. Are you saying that you were involved in particular elements of it, but not—? There's a chapter on, I think it's called 'education and research', which I would anticipate you will have been involved with, to a lesser or greater extent. Were you actually involved in—? I don't expect you to have written it, but were you involved in developing the ideas behind it?

Not in the sense that we were involved in consultation on the framework itself, but we are involved in the development of the ideas and the issues, through our work with Agile and the regional framework. So, not directly as consultees, no.

Again, not directly involved. We were at a conference in Dublin in 2019, where a number of the key issues were explored at an early stage, and we were able to provide evidence there. There were senior managers from Welsh universities at that conference, and I know that they have also been involved in the British Irish Chamber of Commerce meetings subsequent to that launch event in Dublin, back in November 2019, I believe.

Okay. Not overly clear answers, I'm afraid, but let's try to move on a little bit. Let me focus on the education and research aspect of this, at the beginning. The action plan says that the two Governments will:

'Explore the possibility of establishing new Welsh-Irish research fellowships

'Facilitate and support academic collaboration...

'Contribute to ongoing wider discussions on...focused engagement between Welsh and Irish Universities'.

You weren't involved, from your previous answers, in developing those particular commitments, so, are you involved in delivering any of them? And it's to Berwyn and Amanda, really, on this.

Berwyn, ydych chi eisiau mynd yn—?

Berwyn, do you want to go—?

Oh, okay, Amanda, you've put your hand up.

So, I think those would all be—. In terms of relationships with Ireland, those are all areas of interest for us. They're areas we've explored in the past. In terms of collaboration, of course, we have the Welsh Government-funded Global Wales programme, and we are currently looking at a European strategy, and there is some scope there, I think, in relation to collaborations, at least.

So, I think those are all valid areas that we would support in terms of the development of the relationship. I think there are probably other areas that we might look at. I don't think their absence at this stage is problematic, but there are areas such as quality assurance that we might look at in future, certainly with colleagues in Ireland and colleagues in Scotland. That's not a point that we're at at the moment, but I think there's definitely scope to grow those relationships. 

09:55

But in direct answer, Amanda, to my question, the answer is 'no'.

So, those are all things that we have supported in relation to work that we've done previously. So, we would be supportive of that. I think the main issue—I might be jumping ahead a little bit—is, more fundamentally, where is the facilitative capacity going to be, because one of the things we're going to struggle with, really, is that capacity, if we're really going to give life to some of this. 

Okay, okay, but with all due respect, Amanda, that's fine, but that wasn't my question. My question was: are you actually involved in delivery? And from what I'm gleaning from your two answers, the answer is 'no'.

So, we're not involved in the framework itself in terms of a working group for the framework looking at this, but there are ways in which we are involved in activity that will give life to these issues.  

So, the work we do through our Global Wales programme, where—

So, what aspect of Global Wales is delivering on, for example, the collaboration between Welsh and Irish academics?

So, in terms of the programme that we're looking at at the moment, if universities come forward with some ideas for our European strategy, which is still in development, then there is some scope, for example, to look at some seed funding for things like collaboration. So, there are programmes we're running that could provide some life to this, for want of a better phrase, but are we involved in any sort of working group on the framework itself, then 'no'.

Yes. So, from the Brussels end, we're here to facilitate collaboration. We have, for example, done some activity with the European regional days. We worked with the Irish regions office, and we've got exchange between Cardiff University, and, I think, the University of Limerick in that particular instance. But they're quite ad hoc actions. I wouldn't argue that they were in a programmed series of activities.

So, I'm trying to find an answer to my question; neither of you are being particularly clear on this. So, the answer, Berwyn, is, 'No, you're not actually involved in delivery.' You've had meetings, you went to a conference last year, but you're not involved in the delivery of this programme. 

Not directly, no. 

No. Right. That's clear. Oliver, in terms of the business community, you weren't involved with the development of the shared statement and action plan. Are you involved with the delivery of it? 

The Welsh Government says in this action plan that it's working with and supporting

'key stakeholders, including trade promotion agencies and Chambers of Commerce, to support the delivery of trade missions, including virtual visits, in key sectors'.

You're not involved in it at all?

10:00

Not to my knowledge, no.

So, I'm interested, then, in: do you have any view on how the collaboration that is described in this document is going to be delivered?

Well, I can only speak from my own experience and from my organisation's experience. In terms of collaboration, I could see some collaboration between our chamber of commerce in Wales, as the West Cheshire and North Wales Chamber of Commerce, collaborating with Irish chambers through the global, international British chamber network.

But you're named. You're one of the few organisations that's actually named in this document as delivering:

'Chambers of Commerce, to support the delivery of trade missions'.

Well, not specifically our chamber of commerce.

Okay, fair enough. But I would anticipate you're part of a family, aren't you?

Yes, I understand that. It's also important to note that we've had a bit of a shake-up recently. I'm only relatively new to the role, so—.

But in your introduction to the organisation this hasn't been flagged up to you in any way.

Okay. So, I'm not sure I've got many more questions after that.

Diolch, Alun. We appreciate that this is a baptism of fire for you, Oliver, in lots of ways, because you're new to the role, in coming straight in at the deep end, if I can mix all of the metaphors there. So, we do appreciate the fact that you're here. 

What I'm picking up from all of your answers, really, to Alun's questions, is it seems a lot—. Would you say that it's a fair assessment that, on balance, more of your work that would link in with Wales-Ireland relations would fall outside the confines of this strategy, as opposed to anything that is technically within it? Is that a fair assessment? Yes? Berwyn.

The action lines are quite broad, and therefore, yes, we are promoting opportunities for academic exchanges and we are sending information back to our contacts back in Wales about links and developments here in Brussels. We have links with Enterprise Ireland—they've got a representation here in Brussels. So, broadly, we're doing activity that's aligned with the action plan, but we haven't got any formal responsibility for delivering on it.

And if I could ask you on that—diolch, Berwyn—would you welcome being more formally in the mix of this? Or do you think that, by the nature of the strategy, it doesn't bother you that your work isn't directly in it as much? I don't want to lead you in my question.

I'm not sure if I'm in a position to be able to decide on that. I think maybe Amanda can give an answer in terms of that, but we are looking at opportunities to engage, for example, with the network in European Cooperation in Science and Technology Actions—we're promoting that particularly in Wales at the moment. We know that 85 per cent of COST Actions involve Irish partners, so where we can provide that kind of stimulus, then that's what we will do. But I'm not sure about targets or formal—. I'm not in a position to really decide on that. 

Okay, diolch, Berwyn. I appreciate your answer. Amanda.

I think there is some potential; certainly if we looked at Agile, they're providing some seed-corn funding. That's useful. I think if we were to look in a more structured way at things like fellowships in what would be key areas of co-operation between Ireland and Wales, then I think that sort of more structured approach would be incredibly helpful. Because as we've highlighted, we've got areas where we've done key, European-leading work with Ireland, particularly in terms of areas like marine and agriculture. From our point of view, it's really important that we're able to keep those going, so I do think there is scope for some kind of more structured and formal approaches within the framework. But obviously we have other collaborations that will contribute to delivering the framework.

10:05

Diolch. Thank you, Amanda. Oliver, from your perspective, please, would you say, firstly, that the majority of the work or any collaboration that you have that would link Ireland and Wales together would fall outside of the formal, structured co-operation? If so, would you welcome any more formal guidance or involvement?

Whether it falls outside the structured format I think depends on the kind of work that you're talking about. I think that we would welcome more structured involvement. We always want to be able to help businesses, regardless of what that means. We know Ireland are a strong trade partner, so anything that we can do to help business relations between the two countries would be beneficial.

Thank you. And finally, before we move on to another Member, as part of the inquiry that we're undertaking, we're trying to ascertain whether the Wales-Ireland model that the Welsh Government has in terms of the priority relationships that the Welsh Government is pursuing between Wales and other countries, or, indeed, other regions of other countries, is one that should be replicated. I appreciate, from all of your answers, that your involvement in this model has been limited, but, from your limited involvement, do you think that this is a model that should be replicated? Hefin, are you indicating that you wanted to come in on this? No. So, do you think that this is a model that should be replicated? I'll go to Amanda first.

I can say something about what we do in relation to higher education and, indeed, further education now through our Global Wales programme. That is very much about looking at how we work system to system with other countries and regions. We have agreements in place, for example, with the state of Telangana in India, we have an agreement in place with Vietnam, and we're looking at what we might do in a more structured sense in Canada. I think we will need to be targeted, because we need to know that we've got that capacity to really support activity. I think the model can work, but you do need to be very clear that you've got that capacity to marshal your resources in Wales and facilitate relationships and activity. So, the model can work, but you'd want to be quite targeted and know that you've got the resources to do it properly.

To some extent, I think the relationship with Ireland is quite bespoke in terms of the past projects funded through INTERREG. It would be the thematic approach that INTERREG has provided that has been taken on, to some extent, also, in Agile Cymru and the call that has just been announced last week with the three thematic areas. It's very much linked around oceans, innovation and culture and communities. That might make it more bespoke to Ireland, as opposed to other European regions.

Our approach, again, through Global Wales on a European level is that one of our first projects now is with Flanders. I mentioned before that Ireland is important for other regions that Wales has worked more closely with, and Flanders is one of those. We've had, I think, over 40 projects in Horizon 2020 with Flemish universities, for example. We've identified Flanders as a key priority for Global Wales as well, and we've been working with a Flemish research agency to create a Welsh version, together with Flanders, of their scientific research network. We're hoping that the call will be opening now next month with Flanders on developing these scientific research networks. That’s very much an open call to reflect the fact that we have a range of interests in terms of research with Flanders. That’s a very different approach potentially to the more thematic approach that we would take with Ireland.

10:10

Diolch, Berwyn. Is there anything that you'd like to add in terms of—? From what you know of what the Welsh Government is doing with this model, is that something that you think should be replicated in terms of other country relationships?

It’s an interesting question. In terms of trade between Wales and Ireland, thinking about it from a business perspective, I think there’s always more work to be done. I also recognise that every country has its own kind of different context and specific sectors and things like that. So, I’m not sure if it’s necessarily a like-for-like. In terms of a base model that you could then work from to assess other countries specifically, I think it could work for that, but I wouldn’t simply just slot it in and expect it to work straight away.

Diolch am hynna. Oeddet ti eisiau dod mewn? Na. Mi wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Tom Giffard.

Thank you very much for that. Did you want to come in? No. We'll move on to Tom Giffard.

Tom, before you come in, I think Hefin wanted to come in with a supplementary to this.

I just wanted to comment on the general impression I’m getting. I just wanted the panel to comment on it. I just get the feeling that whereas European collaboration is important, in the grand scheme of things Ireland itself doesn’t seem to have a high strategic importance, given some of the answers we’ve received. I just wanted the panel to have a chance to address that point.

Sure. I think it’s fair to say that Wales business has a lot of different priorities at the moment, especially in terms of the way the economy looks and the state of play for businesses—especially in Wales, but in the UK generally as well. I would say that there was, in that case, more prioritisation of general EU trade, because it’s a larger market share than specifically Irish trade. That’s where that would be from the business perspective.

Ireland is our fourth largest trading partner, so I'd be surprised if it was dismissed.

Berwyn or Amanda, did you want to come in on Hefin’s observation?

Ireland is a recruitment market for Welsh universities in terms of students, so it’s not just what we would do in a structured sense. I would say that Ireland is an important market. It’s not going to be, obviously, as important as our other close geographic neighbour in England, but it is still an important market for us, and there are other reasons why working with and through Ireland could be important for us in the future. And of course, in relation to some of the work we have to do to support our language and our culture, there’s a lot we can learn from each other. So, I’m not sure I’d agree, Hefin; it’s not quite as binary as that, but it’s clearly not our primary market.

I agree with Amanda. I don’t want to give the impression that Ireland is not important. I think it could become increasingly important for us in terms of engaging at a European level, as Ireland is still a member state. I think it’s skewed to some extent by INTERREG in the fact that the relationship was very much within the context of that funding stream. I think the challenge will be to look at other sources of funding that will take over from that scheme and to ensure that those relationships are maintained. I know that Bangor and Aberystwyth and Swansea in particular do have very deep connections with Irish universities, so I don't want to give the impression that Ireland is not important—it certainly is important.

10:15

Diolch am hynna. Fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Tom Giffard. Diolch am fod yn amyneddgar gyda'r newid munud olaf yna, Tom.

Thank you very much for that. We'll move on to Tom Giffard. Thank you for being so patient with that last-minute change, Tom.

No problem; thank you, Chair. You've touched on this a little bit already in various answers, but how would you like to see Wales and Ireland co-operation extended beyond 2025? Are there other areas that you'd like to see included in the future, for example?

Berwyn, ydych chi eisiau mynd yn gyntaf?

Berwyn, do you want to go first?

First of all, if we do associate with Horizon, that would be a great fillip for us to develop further collaborations in the area of research and innovation. There might be other areas in which we could potentially develop exchanges and collaborations: in areas such as Civic Mission, for example, and the social dimension of higher education. These are areas in which we are working more closely, for example, within the Bologna process, of which Ireland, of course, is also a member. So, they could potentially be the areas in which we could be looking at collaboration, not just necessarily in research and innovation, within that European context.

I think what I would say, looking at 2025, is that the key issue is going to be to extend what we are able to do within the existing areas. It's about how are we going to resource and support activity that we might be starting now. Because I think if we're going to do this, it needs to be long term. We need to be careful about just growing a lot of new things in rather than just building on the framework that we've got. 

When you say, 'extend on existing areas', do you mean the literal co-operation that's in place now, or are there specific schemes that are in place now that you'd want to see extended?

There are any number of things you could do. Obviously, research and innovation and education are already, as we've described, key areas of co-operation. I'd like to be able to build on what we might do through the schemes that we're running. If we've got seed corn through Agile, it'd be interesting to look at what comes through that and what projects we might build from that initial investment, for example. Where we've got projects, I'd be more interested in sustaining the projects we've got—which, as we've described, are under some pressure at the moment with the withdrawal of INTERREG—and looking at how we can really build these areas into the future, because they're already some areas of strength. So, for me, some of it will be about just being able to maintain and build from where we are—not to add in new themes, if that makes sense to you.

Tom, do you want that question to go to Oliver as well?

From a business perspective, there's great opportunity for long-term co-operation beyond 2025. Specifically, that's around energy, around the Celtic sea and floating off-shore wind projects, and carbon capture as well. There should be some collaboration there, considering that we share that body of water with Ireland. It's about making sure that both Wales and Ireland see a distinct benefit from it so that that relationship can continue to flourish. When looking at that, when you start going down the corridor of green energy, you're then looking into things such as manufacturing, which there can be collaboration on long term; research and development, which is some of our friends here on the call's remit; and tourism as well. I think it would be useful for there to be a distinct tourism strategy between Ireland and Wales.

10:20

But you'd welcome more clarity on that strategy, perhaps.

I would. I would welcome more clarity on that—not just in terms of proximity. There are many people who, say, for example, work in Ireland and live in Wales, and vice versa, and it would be beneficial for there to be almost some kind of corridor for those people as well to benefit goods and trade—sorry, services and trade. 

I just wanted to pick up, perhaps, on the point in term of research and innovation and opportunities. I think some of the projects that have been emphasised and some of the discussions with Welsh Government and the Irish Government are around energy, but do you think we're doing enough to resource the potential there, because obviously there's a risk that big energy projects could go elsewhere, unless we're able to ensure that we are collaborating at the level that's required to deliver on these big projects?

It's a good question. I think it's mission critical that any benefits that are seen from any kind of collaboration on energy, both in terms of profit and generated energy, would remain in Ireland and in Wales. We've seen in the past—you know, we've had in Wales the likes of BAE Systems, for example, develop some onshore wind—I believe it is—technology, energy generation, and all the profit ends up in Sweden. So, it's important that, actually, there is an understanding that money for development of the economy and also the development of the sector and also the energy as well would remain in both Ireland and Wales. That throws up questions about a joint infrastructure question, and that's a little bit more difficult, but—. That's a little more complicated than I'd like to get into. 

Okay. Thank you. Can you tell us about your organisation's future plans for Wales-Ireland co-operation and if there's any support required from Welsh Government in order to achieve them?

So, shall we go to—

Berwyn, yn gyntaf, ar hyn?

Berwyn, first on this?

So, yes, we're here in Brussels to represent all the Welsh universities and the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales as well. We're working and we're networking with a range of different university offices here, with a range of different regions. Ireland is somewhat different for us, because they don't really get involved in a number of the informal networks that we're involved in, because basically they don't have to as a member state. So, they're sitting in council, they're sitting in the programme committees, they have a vote; they are working at a different level from us. They are engaged in some networks, like the informal grouping of liaison officers for research, and it's Enterprise Ireland that takes that role there. Irish universities are involved in the European Universities Association, alongside Welsh universities. But Ireland is a member state, not a region, so a lot of our work in Brussels is with European regions. We do have, as I said before, links with the Irish regions office here.

So, they work at a different level to us. But, having said that they are, as I said earlier on, a very important potential partner for us, and a way for us to increase our presence and our profile here in Brussels is through engaging with our Irish partners, like we have already done with the Celtic Advanced Life Science Innovation Network project. We did a large promotional event here with the Welsh and the Irish universities that were involved in that project. So, there are opportunities that way for us to develop more at the Brussels level in terms of engaging with Ireland.

10:25

Rwy'n meddwl bod Hefin eisiau dod i mewn efo cwestiwn atodol yn y fanna, Tom, os yw hwnna'n ocê.

I think that Hefin wanted to come in with a supplementary there, Tom, if that's okay.

Just with reference to HEFCW there, the end of that, the closure of HEFCW and the movement to CTER, will that have an impact on future strategic relations? Do you think that will bring in collaboration beyond higher education?

Potentially, yes. So, for example—. In fact, a couple of weeks ago we hosted an event here as part of the European regions research and innovation network, ERRIN, with the Commission on their new pact for skills, which is also looking at vocational as well as high-level skills. That is a scheme that is only for member states or candidate countries, so we can't directly get involved in that, but it's an area where we can certainly monitor what's happening at a European level in terms of the support to the skills agenda, which Europe is also prioritising.

Okay. Diolch. Amanda, did you have anything to say to Tom's original question on this?

Obviously, the thing that's going to make the most difference will be the Horizon association, and there's no getting away from that. That's the thing that will be absolutely most valuable to us. I think, also, we need to look at—. We're about to withdraw activity, which is not a good position to be in if we want to grow that relationship, so I think we also need to look at some of the projects we've got running and look at how we're providing some potential bridge for some of those projects that are in danger of being withdrawn at the moment. Because the important thing is that we don't go backwards.

Right. Obviously, my question was about your future plans, so am I to read that, if there is no continuation of Horizon, there are no future plans?

No. I've already covered some of that. I'm happy to give you some more information about what we do through our Global Wales programme. We do have plans in relation to our relationships with Ireland through that. We are also—. As Berwyn said, we're active in Bologna around Civic Mission, and that does provide us with some other possibilities to move forward. Horizon is the thing that would make the most difference to us in terms of what we're able to do into the future, and, as I said earlier, it would be good to look at what we could do potentially through some structured fellowships. But the thing that will make the most difference, and the plans I would really like, would be in relation to keeping some of those very important projects going. And those are the things that we've been trying to work on in relation to the replacement of some of the funds that we're losing, to really work on trying to keep some of those key projects in play.

Can I just push you, please, Amanda, on is there any specific support from the Welsh Government that you would like, that would be helpful for you with any of those plans that you have or any of those aspirations you'd have?

It kind of brings in, I guess, Hefin's point about the new commission, because that's interesting: could we have more structured relationships between regulators? I think there is some possible—. I mentioned earlier that we could look at areas into the future. It might be how we share what we're doing on widening access. It might be quality assurance. So, I think there is some scope there, and then I think we might decide that there's also some scope in relation to looking at some kind of structured fellowships as well. Does that answer the question?

The same question to Oliver, if that's okay, Chair—what are the plans for the future and do they need any Welsh Government support.

10:30

We'd like to work more to facilitate more Welsh-Irish trade. We're always trying to push for more businesses being more involved internationally, because businesses that do trade internationally are generally more resilient, and that is better for the Welsh economy. But also it's about getting businesses trading out of the internal market more generally as well, because, as a statistic, only 40 per cent of businesses in Wales actually are trading outside of the internal market. So, there's a large market share there that is currently not being tapped into. So, if you expand the number of businesses generally that are trading outside of the internal market, you therefore, by proxy, get the businesses—more businesses—that will trade with Ireland, so that helps facilitate that trade as a result. But it's also recognising that, at the moment, the economy is in such a place that it makes it very difficult to facilitate that trade. There are significant headwinds for businesses in doing that, especially in terms of costs. So, in terms of support for Welsh Government, it's both a case of promoting Ireland as a place to trade with, and also anything that can be done to help mitigate those headwinds. 

Lyfli. Ocê, diolch. Oni bai bod gan unrhyw Aelod gwestiwn ychwanegol—na, dwi ddim yn gweld—diolch i chi i gyd am roi tystiolaeth i ni y bore 'ma. Bydd transgript o'r hyn sydd wedi cael ei ddweud yn cael ei ddanfon atoch chi i chi wirio ei fod e'n gofnod teg o'r cyfarfod. Ond, unwaith eto, diolch am fod yn ran o'r ymchwiliad yma; dŷn ni'n ddiolchgar iawn i chi. Aelodau, byddwn ni nawr yn cael egwyl fer. Byddwn ni yn mynd eto yn gyhoeddus am 10:45, ond diolch i'r tystion eto.  

Lovely. Thank you very much. Unless any other Members have further questions—I don't see any—thank you very much to all of you for sharing your evidence this morning. A transcript of what has been said will be sent to you to check for accuracy, with regard to it being a reflection of the meeting's discussions. But thank you once again for being part of this inquiry; we're very grateful to you. Members, we will now have a short break. We will return to public session at 10:45, but thank you very much to witnesses. 

10:45

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:32 a 10:46.

The meeting adjourned between 10:32 and 10:46.

3. Cysylltiadau rhwng Cymru ac Iwerddon: Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chyrff diwylliannol a threftadaeth
3. Wales-Ireland relations: Evidence session with cultural and heritage bodies

Croeso nôl. Dŷn ni nawr yn symud ymlaen at eitem 3. Dŷn ni'n cario ymlaen gyda chael tystiolaeth ar gysylltiadau rhwng Cymru ac Iwerddon. Byddwn ni nawr yn cynnal sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chyrff diwylliannol a threftadaeth. Gaf i ofyn i'n tystion gyflwyno eu hunain ar gyfer y record? Mi wnaf i fynd o'r chwith i'r dde fel dwi'n edrych arnoch chi, felly gwnaf i fynd at Mali yn gyntaf.

Welcome back. We now move on to item 3. We're continuing with evidence on Wales and Ireland relations. We now have an evidence session with cultural and heritage bodies. May I ask our witnesses to introduce themselves for the record? I'll go from left to right as I'm looking at you, so, Mali first.

Mali Thomas, cyfarwyddwr cyfathrebu a materion rhyngwladol gyda'r Urdd.

Mali Thomas, director of communications and international relations with Urdd Gobaith Cymru.

Nia Williams, cyfarwyddwr addysg a rhaglenni cyhoeddus gydag Amgueddfa Cymru.

Nia Williams, director of learning and public programmes with Museum Wales.

Eluned Hâf, pennaeth Celfyddydau Rhyngwladol Cymru yng Nghyngor Celfyddydau Cymru.

I'm Eluned Hâf, and I'm the head of Wales Arts International based at the Arts Council of Wales.

Gwych. Diolch yn fawr iawn i'r tair ohonoch chi. Nawr, mae rhai Aelodau ar y sgrin, so byddan nhw'n gofyn cwestiynau hefyd. Does dim rhaid i bob un ohonoch chi ateb pob cwestiwn, ond efallai os dŷch chi eisiau dod i mewn ar rhywbeth, os dŷch chi jest yn gallu dangos, a byddwn ni'n gallu mynd at bwy bynnag sydd eisiau gofyn. A felly mi wnawn ni fynd yn syth i mewn i gwestiynau, ac mi wnaf i fynd at Heledd Fychan yn gyntaf.

Excellent. Thank you to the three of you. Some Members are on the screen, so they'll be asking questions also. Not all of you have to answer every question, but if you want to come in, maybe if you could just indicate, and whoever wants to ask a question, please do so. We'll go straight into questions, and I'll go to Heledd Fychan to begin with.

Diolch, Cadeirydd, a bore da ichi i gyd. Dwi eisoes wedi datgan buddiant ar ddechrau'r cyfarfod fy mod i wedi bod ynghlwm efo nifer o'r pethau rydym ni'n cyfeirio atynt y bore yma. Ond byddai fo’n ddefnyddiol, er mwyn ein hymchwiliad ni, os fyddech chi, efallai, yn gallu dechrau drwy amlinellu beth rydych chi'n gweld fel pwysigrwydd y berthynas rhwng Cymru ac Iwerddon o'ch persbectif chi. Efallai os gallaf i ddechrau efo Mali.

Thank you, Chair, and good morning, everyone. I've already declared an interest at the beginning of the meeting that I have been involved in a number of the issues that we'll be referring to this morning. But it would be useful for our inquiry if you could, perhaps, start by outlining what you perceive as the importance of the relationship between Wales and Ireland from your perspective. Perhaps if I could start with Mali.

Yn sicr. Fel yr Urdd, mae'n hynod bwysig i ni roi cyfleoedd i'n haelodau ni yma yng Nghymru i gael cyfle i ymwneud â phobl ifanc eraill ar draws y byd. Mae'r berthynas efo Iwerddon yn un grëwyd gan yr Urdd tua tair blynedd yn ôl er mwyn sicrhau bod ein pobl ifanc ni yn cael cyfle i ddysgu mwy am yr iaith Wyddeleg, a dŷn ni'n ymwybodol iawn fod yna bartneriaid yn Iwerddon yn gwneud gwaith da iawn pan mae'n dod i hyrwyddo yr iaith Wyddeleg.

Felly, mae ein partneriaeth ni gydag Iwerddon gyda mudiad ieuenctid o'r enw TG Lurgan, sy'n llwyddiannus iawn yn ymbweru pobl ifanc yn yr iaith Wyddeleg drwy greu cynyrchiadau cerddorol yn yr iaith Wyddeleg. Felly, mae ein partneriaeth ni, yn syml iawn, yn rhoi cyfle i bobl ifanc o Gymru ac Iwerddon ddod at ei gilydd i greu'r cyd gynyrchiadau yma a rhoi hyder yn yr iaith. Ac mae ein hadborth ni gan y bobl ifanc o Gymru ac o Iwerddon yn dangos dyna'n union beth mae'r bartneriaeth yn sicrhau—cyfleoedd i bobl ifanc fod yn ymwybodol o'u hunaniaeth a'u hieithoedd, ond hefyd diwylliant, a'u creu nhw'n ddinasyddion hyderus sy'n gallu mynd allan i'r byd yn falch o'r iaith Gymraeg a sut maen nhw'n ei defnyddio hi. Mae ein partneriaeth ni hefyd yn rhoi cyfleoedd i ddysgu mwy am ddiwylliant a dysgu mwy am Iwerddon, a dŷn ni'n falch iawn o'r bartneriaeth dŷn ni wedi sicrhau dros y dair blynedd diwethaf wnaeth gychwyn yn rhithiol, ond bellach yn bartneriaeth sy'n rhoi cyfleoedd teithio i unrhyw berson ifanc sy'n aelod o'r Urdd fod ynghlwm â’n gwaith ni.

Certainly. As the Urdd, it is very important for us to provide our members with opportunities and to have opportunities to involve themselves with young people across the world. The relationship with Ireland is one that was created by the Urdd about three years ago to ensure that our young people had an opportunity to learn more about the Irish language, and we're very aware that there are partners in Ireland doing important work in terms of promoting that language.

So, our partnership with Ireland is with TG Lurgan, a very successful youth organisation that empowers young people in the Irish language by creating music productions in the Irish language. So, our partnership, very simply, provides opportunities for young people from Wales and Ireland to come together and create these co-productions and have confidence in the language. And the feedback that we have from our young people here and in Ireland is that that's what the partnership secures—it's an opportunity for young people to be aware of their identity and languages, but also culture, and turn them into confident citizens who can go out to the world, proud of the Welsh language and how they use the Welsh language. Our partnership also provides opportunities to learn more about culture and about Ireland, and we're very pleased with the partnership that we've secured over the last three years. It began virtually, but is now a partnership that provides travel opportunities for any young person who's a member of the Urdd and to be involved with our work.

Diolch, Heledd. Wel, mae gyda ni memorandwm o gyd-ddealltwriaeth gydag Amgueddfa Genedlaethol Iwerddon. Mae hwnnw gyda ni ers 2019, ond rŷn ni wedi ail-fframio fe yn 2021 i gyd-blethu gyda chynllun gweithredu ar y cyd Iwerddon a Chymru. Mae ein gwaith ni yn canolbwyntio tipyn ar rannu profiad. Buaswn i'n dweud, fel amgueddfa genedlaethol, y berthynas gydag Amgueddfa Genedlaethol Iwerddon yw’r un agosaf sydd gyda ni. O ran ein memorandwm ni, rŷn ni'n canolbwyntio ar bum piler. So, mae gyda ni ddatblygiad strategol, sy'n canolbwyntio ar fentora a dysgu o’n gilydd o gwmpas meysydd megis cynaladwyedd. Mae gyda ni hefyd gynhadledd rŷn ni'n ei chynnal ar y cyd gydag Iwerddon, Yr Alban, Cernyw, Llydaw a gwledydd Lladin America, sy'n edrych ar ymgysylltu diwylliannol, hawliau diwylliant, a'r syniad sydd gyda ni o ran democratiaeth ddiwylliannol. Digwyddodd hwnna llynedd yng Nghaernarfon, felly mae hwnna'n gyfle da i rannu profiad. Rŷn ni hefyd yn cydweithio ar ddad-drefedigaethu; mae hwn yn faes mawr ym myd amgueddfeydd ar hyn o bryd, ac mae yna ddiddordeb mawr gan Iwerddon yn y ffordd rŷn ni yng Nghymru wedi mynd ati i ailddehongli'r casgliad a gwneud hynny ar y cyd gyda chymunedau.

Hefyd hinsawdd a bioamrywiaeth; mae gan y ddwy amgueddfa genedlaethol gasgliad mawr o ran hanes naturiol. Mae yna guraduron yn mynd mas wythnos nesaf, a dweud y gwir, i rannu profiadau o ran datblygu rhai o'r orielau newydd sy'n digwydd yn Amgueddfa Genedlaethol Iwerddon.

Rŷn ni hefyd yn rhannu profiad o ran symud casgliadau; rŷn ni'n credu'n gryf mewn datganoli casgliadau fel eu bod nhw mewn cymunedau. Ond, hefyd, fel Amgueddfa Genedlaethol Iwerddon, mae gyda ni amgueddfeydd cenedlaethol dinesig, fel Amgueddfa Genedlaethol Caerdydd a Sain Ffagan, a hefyd amgueddfeydd sydd yn fwy gwledig, fel amgueddfa Drefach i ni. Mae'r patrwm yna'n debyg iawn i amgueddfeydd cenedlaethol yn Iwerddon. Felly, mae yna dipyn o rannu profiadau'n digwydd yn fanna.

Rŷn ni hefyd wedi bod yn edrych ar gydweithio ar gyfer y dyfodol, a dwi'n meddwl bod yna ddau faes penodol yn fan hyn. Mae Mali wedi sôn eisoes am y Gymraeg a'r Wyddeleg, a dwi'n meddwl bod y cydweithio, yn enwedig o dan ymbarél UNESCO nawr, gyda deng mlynedd o ieithoedd lleiafrifol, mae hwnna'n gyfle i ni i gydweithio. Mae yna ddiddordeb gan Iwerddon yn y ffordd rŷn ni wedi defnyddio'r Gymraeg i ddehongli'r ffordd rŷn ni'n dehongli trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, yn hytrach na chyfieithu, ac, wrth gwrs, y ffaith ein bod ni nawr yn defnyddio'n marc ni, Amgueddfa Cymru, yn y Gymraeg.

A hefyd, o ran ni'n dysgu gan Iwerddon, dwi'n meddwl bod yna gyfle i wneud hynny o ran y ffordd maen nhw wedi gwneud twristiaeth ddiwylliannol a'r ffordd maen nhw'n estyn allan i'r Gwyddelod ar wasgar. Wrth i ni ddatblygu nawr ein polisi rhyngwladol ni, Amgueddfa Cymru, byddwn ni'n dysgu tipyn gan eu profiadau nhw o ran eu gwaith rhyngwladol nhw.

Thank you very much, Heledd. Well, we do have a memorandum of understanding with the National Museum of Ireland. We've had that since 2019, but we reframed it in 2021 to dovetail with our joint action plan with regard to Ireland and Wales. Our work focuses on sharing of experience. As a national museum, the relationship with the National Museum of Ireland is the closest one that we have. With regard to our memorandum, we focus on five pillars. We have strategic development that focuses on mentoring and learning from each other around areas such as sustainability. We also have a conference that we hold on a joint basis with Ireland, Scotland, Cornwall, and Latin American nations, and Brittany too, which looks at cultural rights, engagement, and the ideas that we have in terms of cultural democracy. That took place last year in Caernarfon, so that was a good opportunity to share experiences. We also collaborate on decolonialisation; this is a major area of work in museums at the moment. Ireland has a great deal of interest in the way that we've gone about reinterpreting our collection, and doing that jointly with communities.

Also, in terms of climate and biodiversity, the two national museums have major collections in terms of natural history. Curators are going out next week, truth be told, to share experiences in terms of developing some of the new galleries that are being developed at the National Museum of Ireland.

We also share experience in terms of moving collections; we believe strongly in devolving collections so that they're based in communities. But, like the National Museum of Ireland, we have citizen museums such as National Museum Cardiff and St Fagans, but also museums that are more rurally based, such as the Drefach Felindre museum. That arrangement is very similar to the museums in Ireland, so there's a great deal of sharing experience that happens there.

We also look at collaboration for the future, and I think that there are two specific areas of work here. Mali has already talked about the Welsh language and Irish language, and I think that the collaborations, particularly under the UNESCO umbrella of 10 years of minority language, are an opportunity to work together. Ireland has a great deal of interest in the way that we've used Welsh in terms of how we interpret through the medium of Welsh rather than just translating, and, of course, the fact that we now use our brand, Amgueddfa Cymru, in Welsh.

Also, in terms of us learning from Ireland, I think there's an opportunity for us to do that in terms of how they've undertaken cultural tourism and how they engage with the diaspora. I think there's a great deal of work for us to do to develop our international policy. We're learning a great deal from their experiences in terms of their international work.

10:50

Diolch. Wel, yn gyntaf i ddweud efallai ein bod ni'n gweld Iwerddon mwy fel drws ffrynt i'r Undeb Ewropeaidd ac i'r Cenhedloedd Unedig erbyn hyn yn dilyn Brexit. Ond hefyd, mae yna dri maes hoffwn i jest gyffwrdd arnyn nhw: polisi, partneriaethu, a hefyd ariannu.

So, ym maes polisi, dwi'n meddwl bod y datblygiadau o weithio ar y cyd ar draws sefydliadau'n mynd i fod yn un hynod o bwysig, ac mae'r datganiad ar y cyd yma wedi helpu lliniaru'r ffordd i hynny'n sicr. Dwi'n meddwl bod y Ddeddf Llesiant Cenedlaethau’r Dyfodol (Cymru) 2015 yn hynod bwysig, ac mae Bil ar hyn o bryd yn mynd trwy Senedd Iwerddon—Bil tebyg iawn heb ddiwylliant yn rhan ohono fo, dwi'n deall, ond efallai y buasen nhw'n hoffi dysgu o brofiad Cymru yn hynny o beth, a sut wnaethon ni fedru gweithio efo'r Ddeddf honno i roi lle blaenllaw i ddiwylliant yn rhan o genedlaethau'r dyfodol.

Fel mae Nia wedi sôn, dwi'n meddwl bod UNESCO a'r gwaith sy'n mynd ymlaen efo degawd o genedlaethau'r dyfodol o ochr polisi yn mynd i fod yn hynod bwysig, ac mae yna fodd i ni gydweithio a dysgu gan Iwerddon—sut maen nhw wedi gweithio efo, er enghraifft yr intangible heritage—treftadaeth anniriaethol—ac efallai sut allwn ni ddod i roi lle blaenllaw i'r iaith Gymraeg drwy hynny, efallai'r gynghanedd, er enghraifft. Dwi'n meddwl bod yna le i ni fod yn meddwl yn fwy gofalus ac yn greadigol ar sut rydyn ni'n cydweithio mewn sefydliadau rhyngwladol yn arbennig. O ran maes polisi hefyd, mae'r ochr datgarboneiddio'n hynod bwysig i ni. Roeddem ni allan yn Nulyn dros Ŵyl Ddewi mewn trafodaethau efo fforwm theatr Iwerddon, ac mae yna aelodau gennym ni o Gymru yn rhan o'r fforwm honno fel rhwydwaith sydd yn helpu i ddatblygu cydweithio i mewn i'r ddegawd nesaf a gweithio mewn ffordd mwy cynaliadwy.

Dwi'n meddwl hefyd bod chwaraeon a chydweithio ar draws portffolio a bod yn rhan o'r tîm Cymru yma rydyn ni i gyd wedi bod yn gweithio'n galed i drio ei wireddu'n mynd i fod yn hynod bwysig, sydd efallai yn fy arwain i mewn i'r ochr partneriaethu sefydliadol. Rydyn ni yn cydweithio ar hyn o bryd efo Cyngor Celfyddydau Iwerddon, ac mae yna fwriad i gael memorandwm o ddealltwriaeth efo'r cyngor. Rydyn ni hefyd yn gweithio efo Culture Ireland, sef corff sydd yn hyrwyddo Iwerddon yn rhyngwladol, ac rydyn ni hefyd yn cydweithio efo Creative Ireland. Efallai bod hyn yn cynnig yn uniongyrchol i chi jest o fewn un maes creadigol bod yna lot o gyrff yna. Mae yna gefnogi gwyliau a chyfnewid yn digwydd, ac mae gŵyl Lleisiau Eraill yn un o'r enghreifftiau da o'r prosiectau sy'n mynd yn eu blaen yn ogystal â beth sy'n mynd ymlaen mewn nifer o wyliau eraill, fel yr Eisteddfod Genedlaethol.

Ond, hoffwn i hefyd awgrymu bod yna gyfle lot mwy i weithio efo gwyliau rhyngwladol lle gallwn ni i gyd gyflwyno ein diwylliant Celtaidd, lle mae Iwerddon, efallai, wedi bod ar flaen y gad. Mae gennym ni waith ymchwil yn mynd ymlaen yn hyn o beth ar hyn o bryd yng Ngogledd America.

Ac yn olaf ond nid yn lleiaf, yr ariannu, a rhoi y gefnogaeth i mewn i'r gwaith ddigwydd. Wrth gwrs, mae gennym ni ffynonellau bach ariannu i weithio yn rhyngwladol o fewn y cyngor celfyddydau ac mae hynny'n beth pwysig. Mae rhaglenni'r cyngor celfyddydau yn gyffredinol yn bwysig i'r gwaith yma hefyd. Mae yna arian yn cael ei roi gan bedair gwlad y Deyrnas Unedig i gydweithio ag Iwerddon, ond does dim o hyn, gallaf i ddweud, yn dod i mewn i fod yn cymryd lle cyllid Ewropeaidd sydd wedi'i golli, boed hynny'n Ewrop Greadigol. Wrth gwrs, mi oedd yna ymrwymiad yn y Senedd ddiwethaf i fod yn edrych ar ailymuno â'r rhaglen honno. Ond hefyd, yn bwysig yn y cyd-destun yma, INTERREG. Felly, dwi yn meddwl bod yna fodd i gydweithio â'r rhaglenni yma, i fedru prynu mewn i brosiectau, ac rydyn ni'n gwneud hynny drwy raglenni fel 'On the Move' ar gyfer hyrwyddo artistiaid i gydweithio, ond mae yna dal gap mawr. Diolch.

First of all, I'd like to say that perhaps we see Ireland as the front door to the EU and now the UN, following Brexit. But, there are three areas that I'd just like to touch upon: policy, partnerships and funding.

So, in the area of policy, I think developments of working jointly across organisations are going to be very important, and this joint statement has helped pave the way for that. I think the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 is very important, and there is a Bill that's going through the Irish Parliament at the moment that's very similar, without culture as part of it, I understand, but perhaps they'd like to learn from the experience here in Wales and see how that could work with that Act to provide a prominent place for culture in that area.

As Nia has mentioned, I think the work that's ongoing with UNESCO is going to be very important, and there's a means for us to collaborate on that and to see how Ireland have worked on that, and how they've worked with, for example, the intangible heritage aspect, and perhaps how we can give a prominent status to the Welsh language in that, for example with the cynghanedd. I think there's a need to think more carefully and more creatively about how we work jointly in international organisations specifically. In terms of policy as well, there is the aspect of decarbonisation, and that's very important to us. I was out in Dublin during St David's Day and there were discussions with the Irish theatre forum. We have members from Wales who are a part of that forum as part of a network that helps to develop networking into the next decade and to work in a more sustainable manner. 

I also think that sport and more co-operation across that portfolio and being part of this Wales team that we've all been working hard to realise is going to be very important, and perhaps leads me into the partnership side of things and this organisational partnership working. We are working at the moment with the Arts Council of Ireland, and there is an intention to have a memorandum of understanding with them. We're also working with Culture Ireland, which is a body that promotes Ireland on an international level, and we're also working with Creative Ireland. Perhaps this provides to you directly the fact that, in one creative area, there are many organisations working. A lot of exchanges are happening in terms of festivals, and there are good examples of this going on as well as what's going on in other festivals, such as the National Eisteddfod. 

But, I'd also like to suggest that there is more opportunity to work with international festivals where we can all present our cultures, where Ireland, perhaps, has been at the forefront. There's work ongoing on this in North America.

Last but not least, funding and financial support. Of course, we have small financial funding sources to work on an international level in the arts council, and that's important. Our programmes are important in this. Funding is being provided to the four nations in the UK to work with Ireland, but none of this, I can tell you, takes the place of European funding that's been lost, whether that's Creative Europe—. Of course, there was a commitment in the last Senedd to be looking to revisit that programme. But also, in this context, there is INTERREG. I do think that there is a means of working with these programmes, to buy into projects, and we are doing that through programmes such as 'On the Move' and promoting artists to work together, but there is still a large gap. Thank you.

10:55

Diolch. Os caf i bigo i fyny, felly, ar y pwynt adnodd, oherwydd dwi'n meddwl bod o'n bwynt eithriadol o bwysig. Oherwydd mae'n amlwg yn costio arian i fod yn datblygu partneriaethau. Gwnaethoch chi gyfeirio, yn eich tystiolaeth ysgrifenedig i ni, fod y gwaith wedi cael ei ariannu i fod yn galluogi’r Urdd, er enghraifft. Byddai'n dda deall, o ran persbectif Amgueddfa Cymru, os ydych chi'n defnyddio'ch adnodd chi neu a ydych chi wedi derbyn arian ychwanegol. Ond yn benodol, felly, yn y dystiolaeth gwnaethoch chi ei chyflwyno hefyd, Eluned, mae hi'n cyfeirio'n benodol at y cyfleoedd ariannu penodol fyddai'n fanteisiol er mwyn datblygu'r cysylltiadau yma hyd yn oed yn fwy, felly. Ydych chi'n meddwl mai cyfrifoldeb o ran Llywodraeth Cymru ydy arwain ar hynny? A beth ydych chi'n meddwl y dylem ni fod yn rhoi pwyslais arno fo fel pwyllgor, felly, er mwyn galluogi'r cysylltiadau yma i fod yn cryfhau neu'n parhau hefyd?

Thank you. If I could just pick up on that point on resource, because I think it is an exceptionally important point. Because it obviously costs money to develop the partnerships. You stated in your written evidence to us that work was funded to enable the Urdd, for example. It would be good to understand, from the perspective of Museum Wales, if you've used your resources, or whether you've received additional funding to do this work. But, in the evidence that you submitted, Eluned, it referred to the specific funding opportunities that would be beneficial to develop these relationships even further. So, do you think that it's the responsibility of the Welsh Government to lead this work? And what do you think we should be emphasising as a committee, to enable these relationships to be strengthened or continued, indeed?

Dwi'n meddwl bod eisiau blaenoriaethu, ond mae eisiau hefyd meddwl am sut rydyn ni'n cydweithio ar draws sefydliadau. Ac efallai yn Iwerddon, ein bod ni'n tueddu cymryd o'n ganiataol oherwydd ei bod hi'n wlad sydd mor agos, sy'n ddiwylliannol agos aton ni; efallai ein bod ni ddim yn rhoi yr un math o gyfle i'n cyrff ni gydweithio ar draws sefydliadau ac ar draws diwylliant, a dwi'n meddwl bod yna le i wneud hynny. Mae'r gwaith sydd wedi cael ei wneud yn arbennig, a phan rydyn ni'n cael cyfle i fod efo'n gilydd yn cydweithio, dwi'n meddwl bod o'n bwysig.

Dwi'n meddwl bod Iwerddon hefyd yn—. Dwi'n teimlo bod agweddau'n newid tuag at Gymru a thuag at gydweithio mewn meysydd penodol, yn arbennig o gwmpas yr iaith. Dwi'n meddwl hefyd bod yna le inni fod yn canolbwyntio'n hegni ar sut a lle yn y byd rydyn ni eisiau cydweithio ag Iwerddon, a dim jest o fewn Iwerddon; efallai, fel roeddwn i'n sôn, fod yna gyfle i fod yn cydweithio yn rhyngwladol. Ond, mae lot o'r gwaith tîm Cymru yma yn mynd ymlaen ar ewyllys da ac yn mynd o brosiect i brosiect. Does yna ddim y strwythur, efallai, digon dwfn sydd ei angen er mwyn gallu cymryd y cyfleoedd newydd yma. Mae proffil Cymru yn rhyngwladol wedi mynd i fyny yn aruthrol yn y flwyddyn ddiwethaf yma—lot ohono fo ar gefn cwpan y byd—ond mae yna angen i fod yn penderfynu a ydyn ni eisiau cymryd y cyfleoedd hynny ymlaen, beth ydy'r neges rydyn ni eisiau ei chael a sut ydyn ni'n mynd i fod yn rhoi y strwythurau mewn lle i wneud hynny.

I think there's a need to prioritise, but also there's a need to think about how we work jointly across organisations. Perhaps with Ireland, we take it for granted because it's a country that's so close to us and culturally close to us. Perhaps we're not giving the same opportunity to our bodies to work across organisations and across cultures, and I think there is room to do that. The work that has been done is excellent, and when we have an opportunity to be together and work together, it's important.

I think Ireland too—. I feel that attitudes are changing towards Wales and at working collaboratively in specific areas around the language. I also think there is room for us to be concentrating our energy on where we want to work with Ireland, and not just perhaps in Ireland; as I said, there are opportunities, perhaps, to be working on an international level. But a lot of this team Wales work is happening on goodwill and going from project to project. There isn't the structure there, perhaps, that's deep enough and required to be able to take these new opportunities. Wales's profile internationally has gone up immensely in the last year—a lot of it on the back of the world cup—but we need to decide whether we want to take those opportunities on and how we're going to put the structures in place to do that.

Mae Eluned yn iawn i ddweud, ar hyn o bryd, rŷn ni'n defnyddio adnoddau ein hunan, a dyna pam mae tipyn ohono fe i wneud gyda rhannu a chydweithio yn y dull yna. Ond dwi'n meddwl fe welon ni, gyda thîm Cymru a chwpan y byd, beth oedd y nawdd yna wedi ein galluogi ni i'w wneud, i ddod at ein gilydd fel sefydliadau a gweithio at amcan mwy, mewn ffordd. Ac mae yna fodel yn fanna, dwi'n meddwl, fyddai fe'n ddefnyddiol i efallai esblygu hwnna. Yn sicr, i fynd camau ymhellach, mae angen nawdd, hyd yn oed os yw e'n gyllid cychwynnol, i weld lle gall syniadau wedyn cael eu datblygu yn fwy, math o beth. Ond yn sicr, dwi'n credu bod cwpan y byd wedi cynnig model gwahanol. Gwanethon ni weld cydweithio cyflym yn digwydd ar draws y sectorau diwylliannol a'r cyfryngau yng Nghymru, ac roedd hwnna'n hynod o effeithiol fel ffordd o weithio. Ie, yn sicr gallai hwnna efallai cael—. Mae gyda ni gynllun gweithredu—mae hwnna yn wych—ond dwi'n meddwl bod yn dal angen arian a nawdd, achos mae'r gyllideb wedi cael ei thorri i bawb, er mwyn ei gymryd e'n bellach. Ac fel mae Eluned yn ei ddweud, efallai fod eisiau blaenoriaethu hefyd o ran, yn rhyngwladol, lle yn union sydd orau i Gymru i weithio.

Eluned is right to say that, at present, we use our own resources, and that's why a great deal of it is to do with sharing and collaboration. But I think we saw, in terms of team Wales and the world cup, what that sponsorship enabled us to do, to come together for a wider objective, as organisations. And I think there's a model there that it would be useful to evolve and develop. To take further steps, we do need that funding, even if it's just start-up funding or seed funding, to see how ideas could then be developed further. But, certainly, I think that the world cup has provided a different model. We saw very swift collaboration taking place across the cultural sectors and the media in Wales, and that was exceptionally effective as a way of working. So, certainly, that could be continued. We do have an action plan—that's excellent—but we do need funding support and sponsorship, because budgets have been cut for everyone, to take this work further. And as Eluned said, perhaps we need to prioritise too, internationally, where's best for Wales to work.

Gaf i jest dilyn i fyny ar hynna, efallai? Oherwydd, o'r pethau roeddech chi'n eu rhestru, mae nifer o'r pwyntiau gweithredu, efallai o'r persbectif amgueddfeydd yn benodol, rhwng sefydliad i sefydliad a staff a staff yn fwy na'r cyhoedd, efallai. Roeddech chi'n sôn ynglŷn â'r cyfleoedd o ran twristiaeth ddiwylliannol, ond ai dyna'r cyllid sydd efallai ar goll o ran datblygu'r ochr gyhoeddus o'r bartneriaeth?

May I just follow up on that, perhaps? From what you were listing, a number of the action points, from the museum's perspective specifically, between organisation and organisation and staff and staff is more than with the public, perhaps. You mentioned about the opportunities in terms of cultural tourism, but is that the funding that perhaps is missing from developing the public side of the partnership?

Ie, yn sicr, Heledd, a hefyd, efallai, fel rydyn ni, wedyn, fel sector diwylliannol a chelfyddydol, yn cydweithio. Fel dywedodd Eluned, efallai ei fod e ar hyn o bryd rhyngom ni a'r amgueddfa, cyngor y celfyddydau a'r celfyddydau, yn hytrach na'n bod ni'n dod at ein gilydd. A dyna beth wnaeth y nawdd gyda chwpan y byd ein galluogi ni i'w wneud.

Yes, certainly, Heledd, and then, perhaps us as a cultural and arts sector. As Eluned said, it's between us and the museum, the arts council and the arts, rather than us coming together. And that's what the sponsorship via the world cup enabled us to do.

11:00

Jest eisiau atgyfnerthu, fel un o'r partneriaid a oedd yn rhan o dîm Cymru, ba mor llwyddiannus oedd e. A dwi'n meddwl bod y pwynt wedi ei wneud ynglŷn â dod â'r trydydd sector, y sector gyhoeddus a'r sector breifat at ei gilydd, i weithio'n effeithlon, gydag amser byr a chyllideb hynod fyr. Ac rŷn ni, fel partneriaid, yn derbyn sylwadau; fe wnaethom ni dderbyn yr wythnos diwethaf sylwad gan UNESCO am ba mor effeithlon oedd Cymru yn ystod yr ymgyrch hynny. Ac mae derbyn yr adborth hynny yn amlwg yn hwb i'r partneriaid, ac mae yna ddyhead yna. A dwi'n meddwl, pan fydd yna ddyhead yna i sicrhau gwaith da o ran hyrwyddo Cymru yn rhyngwladol, ei bod hi'n gyfle arbennig i ni gamu ymlaen. Ac mae yna gyfleoedd—rŷn ni'n ymwybodol o hynny efo Cwpan Rygbi'r Byd eleni yn Ffrainc, ac wedyn yr Ewros yn yr Almaen—i weithio ar y gwaith hynny nawr. Felly, rôn i jest eisiau atgyfnerthu pwyntiau y ddau sefydliad arall.

Just to reinforce, as one of the partners that were part of team Wales, how successful it was. And I think that the point has been made regarding bringing the third sector, the public sector and the private sector together, to work efficiently, in a short time with a very short budget. And we, as partners, receive comments; we received a comment from UNESCO last week, telling us how efficient Wales was during that campaign. And receiving that feedback, obviously, is a boost for the partnership, and there's a desire there. And when there's a desire there to ensure good work in terms of promoting Wales on an international level, it's an excellent opportunity for us to step forward. And there are opportunities—we're aware of that with the Rugby World Cup this year in rance, and then the Euros in Germany—to work on that work now. So, I just wanted to reinforce the points of the two other organisations.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Jest un cwestiwn olaf gen i, felly: rydych chi wedi cyfeirio at y gair B—Brexit, felly—ac, yn amlwg, wedi amlinellu rhai o'r heriau. Oes yna unrhyw beth pellach o ran rhai o'r cyfleoedd rydych chi'n eu gweld hefyd—rydyn ni'n gwybod bod ariannu'n broblem—yn sgil y berthynas a'r ffocws newydd yma?

Thank you very much. Just one last question from me, then: you've referred to the B word—Brexit—and, obviously, have outlined some of the challenges. Is there anything further in terms of some of the opportunities you see, too—we know that funding is a problem—in terms of this new relationship and focus?

Oes, yn sicr. Rydyn ni wedi bod yn sôn am ddatgarboneiddio, sut ydyn ni'n gweithio'n rhyngwladol, mewn ffordd fwy cynaliadwy, beth mae teithio rhyngwladol o fewn y celfyddydau yn golygu, cydweithio efo Iwerddon—so, pan fydd perfformwyr ac artistiaid rhyngwladol yn dod i Gymru a'r Deyrnas Unedig, fod cyfle i fod yn gweithio efo Iwerddon a chreu gofodau posib i hynny ddigwydd. Rydyn ni wedi sefydlu gwybodfan y Deyrnas Unedig, o fewn y celfyddydau, yng Nghyngor Celfyddydau Cymru, ac rydyn ni'n gweithio ar draws y cynghorau celfyddydau, hefyd efo Iwerddon, ar hynny. Ac mae rhwydweithiau On the Move a'r gwaith sy'n mynd ymlaen o fewn Theatre Forum Ireland efo'r Green Book, a phethau fel yna, dwi'n meddwl, yn mynd i fod yn hynod bwysig. Mae yna ewyllys da iawn i fod yn cydweithio mewn ffordd gynaliadwy, ac, o edrych ar bum model gwahanol—achos mae yna bum model gwahanol—y pedair gwlad yn y Deyrnas Unedig, efo modelau gwahanol i hyn hefyd, efo Creative Carbon Scotland ac Iwerddon yn gweithio'n agos iawn ar ddatblygu ffyrdd newydd o weithio, dwi'n meddwl, os ydyn ni'n gallu cael ffordd i'r pum model gydweithio, mae hwnna'n dempled da i fod yn gweithio'n rhyngwladol hefyd. So, ydw, dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna'n faes pwysig iawn.

Yes, certainly. We've been talking about decarbonisation, how we work internationally, in a more sustainable way, what international travel within the arts means, collaborating with Ireland—so, when there are international performers and artists coming to Wales and the United Kingdom, that there's an opportunity to be working with Ireland and creating possible spaces for that to happen. We have established a United Kingdom information point, within the arts, in the Arts Council of Wales, and we are working across all the arts councils, also with Ireland, on that. And the On the Move networks, and the work that is going on within Theatre Forum Ireland with the Green Book, and things like that, I think are going to be very important. There is goodwill to be collaborating in a sustainable way, and, looking at the five different models—because there are five different models—of the four nations in the UK, having different models to this too, with Creative Carbon Scotland and Ireland working very closely to develop new ways of working, I think that if we can have a way for the five models to collaborate, that's a very good template to be working internationally as well. So, yes, I think that that's a very important area.

Dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni'n dal i weld sgil-effeithiau, yn dal i fod yn dysgu sgil-effeithiau Brexit hefyd, achos mae COVID wedi bod yn rhyw fath o flanced dros rai o'r rheini dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf. Ond, yn sicr, mae e'n cael impact, fel mae Eluned wedi dweud, ar yr ariannu posibl, ar y cydweithio, Horizon, ac yn y blaen. Roedd y panel a oedd o'ch blaen chi gynt yn sôn tipyn am hynny. Mae hwnna wedi effeithio arnom ni i gyd, dwi'n meddwl.

I think that we're still seeing the impacts, still learning about the impacts of Brexit too, because COVID has been some sort of blanket over that over the last few years. But, certainly, it is having an impact, as Eluned has said, on the possible funding, on the co-operation, on Horizon, et cetera. The panel before you earlier were talking a lot about that. That's had an impact on all of us, I think.

Do. Oherwydd, yn amlwg, o ran Amgueddfa Cymru, rydych chi'n sefydliad ymchwil hefyd—arian INTERREG wedi dod er mwyn hwyluso prosiectau yn y gorffennol. Ydy hynna'n risg rŵan o ran ymchwil a'r cysylltiad efo prifysgolion?

Yes. Because, clearly, in terms of Amgueddfa Cymru, you're a research institution as well—INTERREG funding has facilitated projects in the past. Is that a risk now, in terms of research and the connection with universities?

Ydy, yn sicr. Rŷn ni'n cydweithio ag Aberystwyth ar y gwaith sy'n cael ei wneud ar yr arfordiroedd ar hyn o bryd, ond fydd y math yna o gyfleon, fel mae Aberystwyth wedi dweud wrthych chi gynnau, fyddan nhw ddim yna. Ac rŷn ni yn trafod, fel mae Eluned wedi dweud, mewn ffordd, fod Iwerddon yn ddrws blaen i ni, ac efallai fod yna fodd yn dal i gydweithio drwy hynny, i gael peth o'r arian yna, ond fe gawn ni weld. Mae hwnna'n dal i fod yn rhywbeth rŷn ni'n edrych arno ar hyn o bryd.

Yes, certainly. We're collaborating with Aberystwyth on the work that is being done on coastlines at the moment, but those sorts of opportunities, as Aberystwyth told you earlier, will not be there. And we are discussing, as Eluned said, in a way, that Ireland is a front door for us, and perhaps there is still a means of co-operating through that, to secure some of that funding, but we'll see. That's still something that we're looking at currently.

Diolch. Unrhyw beth i'w ychwanegu?

Thank you. Anything to add?

Na, dim i'w ychwanegu.

No, nothing to add.

Diolch. Diolch, Gadeirydd.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Reit, fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Alun Davies.

Right, we'll move on to Alun Davies.

Diolch. Diolch yn fawr i chi. Dwi wedi bod yn darllen yr action plan mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi ei gyhoeddi i ddilyn y cytundeb a'r datganiad y mae'r ddwy Lywodraeth wedi eu gwneud. Ydy'ch sefydliadau chi wedi cyfrannu at ddatblygu'r cynllun yma?

Thank you. Thank you very much to you. I've been reading the action plan that the Welsh Government has published to follow on from the agreement and the statement that the two Governments have put out. Have your organisations contributed to the development of this plan?

Do. Dwi'n meddwl bod yna waith symud ymlaen—

Yes. I think there's work to move forward—

Do, mi wnaethom ni—yn y lle cyntaf, do. Dwi'n meddwl bod yna gyfle i fod yn mynd ychydig bach yn ddyfnach erbyn hyn. Rydyn ni yn y broses o ysgrifennu ein strategaeth ryngwladol ni. So, mae cynlluniau pobl yn dal i fyny efo'r cyfleoedd, a dwi'n meddwl bod yna fodd i fynd yn ddyfnach.

Yes, we have—in the first instance, yes. I think that there's an opportunity to go a little bit deeper by now. We're in the process of writing our international strategy. So, people's plans are catching up with the opportunities, and I think that it's possible to go deeper.

So, beth oedd eich cyfraniad chi i'r cynllun yma?

So, what was your contribution to this plan?

Yn benodol, dechrau'r cydweithio efo Cyngor Celfyddydau Iwerddon, efo Culture Ireland a Creative Ireland. Fe gawson ni ddigwyddiad mawr yn ôl yn yr wythnos pan aeth Iwerddon i mewn i lockdown, lle bu gorfod i ni i gyd adael ar y diwrnod pan oedd y prif gynadledda'n digwydd. Ond, yn benodol ym maes celf a iechyd, roedd yna ddiddordeb mawr. Roedd cynhadledd roedd Cymru'n rhan ohono. 

Specifically, the beginning of the joint working with the Arts Council of Ireland, with Culture Ireland and Creative Ireland. We had a big event during the week that Ireland went into lockdown, and so we all had to leave when the main conference was happening. But, specifically in the area of health and art, there was great interest in what Wales was doing. Wales was part of a conference.

11:05

Ac mi wnaeth hynny gyfrannu at ddatblygu'r cynllun yma. 

And that contributed to the development of this scheme. 

Mi gyfrannwyd—. Wel, na, roedd y cynllun yn dod i fodolaeth yn yr amser roeddem ni'n cynllunio hwnna, so cyd-fynd efo fo oedd o, mewn ffordd. 

The contribution—. Well, it came into existence in that time and we were planning it, so it aligned with that process, in a way. 

Do, ac rŷm ni'n cael ein henwi o dan diwylliant, iaith a threftadaeth. So, do, fuon ni'n rhan o'r darn yna. Ac wedyn, wrth gwrs, aethom ni ati wedyn i ailfframio ein memorandwm o ddealltwriaeth ni gydag Amgueddfa Genedlaethol Iwerddon yn sgil y cynllun gweithredu. 

Yes, and we are named under culture, language and heritage. So, yes, we were part of that. And then, we went on to reframe our memorandum of understanding with the National Museum of Ireland as a result of the action plan.  

Mae'r Urdd hefyd yn cael ei enwi yn y ddogfen. Roedd ein partneriaeth ni gyda TG Lurgan cyn i'r ddogfen gael ei rhoi at ei gilydd, a dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n werth nodi y dylai hi fod yn ddogfen fyw. Mae'r cyfleoedd yn parhau drwy'r amser. Rydan ni newydd weld nawr, gydag ymweliad i Iwerddon ar gyfer Gŵyl Ddewi, fod yna ddyhead i edrych ar gynllun sydd gan yr Urdd, Chwarae yn Gymraeg, sy'n arfogi plant a phobl ifanc i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg yma yng Nghymru, ond hefyd ei rhannu hi gyda phlant a phobl ifanc ar draws y byd. Ac fe gawson ni ymateb anhygoel yn Iwerddon i'r cynllun hynny. Felly, ein dyhead ni yw bod honno'n ddogfen fyw sy'n cael ei hesblygu gydag amser wrth i'r partneriaethau yma gael eu creu dros amser.   

The Urdd is also named in the document. Our partnership with TG Lurgan predated the document being put together, and I think it's worth noting that it should be a live document. The opportunities continue. We've just seen, with a visit to Ireland for St David's Day, that there's an aspiration to look at the Urdd's Chwarae yn Gymraeg scheme, which empowers children and young people to use the Welsh language in Wales, but also to share the language with young people across the world. And we had an incredible response in Ireland to that scheme. So, our aspiration is that that would be a live document that would evolve over time as these partnerships are created over time.  

Diolch, a dwi'n falch iawn clywed hynny. Dwi'n awyddus i ddeall sut mae'r cynllun yma yn gyrru eich gwaith chi, achos beth rydych chi wedi disgrifio wrth ateb Heledd oedd y gwaith rydych chi wedi bod yn gwneud cyn i'r cynllun yma fodoli, a, dwi'n cymryd, y gwaith rydych chi'n mynd i barhau ei wneud. So, dwi eisiau deall ble mae'r cynllun a ble mae gwaith Llywodraeth Cymru yn digwydd. Faint mae hynny yn sbarduno eich gwaith chi, neu ydy'ch gwaith chi yn cyfrannu at y cynllun, os ydych chi'n gweld?  

Thank you, and I'm very pleased to hear that. I'm keen to understand how this plan is driving your work, because what you've described in response to Heledd was the work that you have been doing before this plan existed, and, I take it, the work that you're going to continue to do. So, I just want to understand where this plan and where Welsh Government's work is happening. How much of that drives your work, or does your work contribute towards the plan? 

O'n hochr ni, mae'r ddau. Mae gennym ni bartneriaeth ariannu efo Llywodraeth Cymru sy'n cynnwys gwaith Iwerddon, ac mae hwnna'n bwydo'n uniongyrchol i fewn i'r cynllun yma. Ond—

From my point of view, it's both. We have a funding partnership with Welsh Government that includes work on Ireland, and that feeds directly into this scheme. But—

Sori, gaf i'ch stopio chi am eiliad? 

Sorry, could I stop you there for a second? 

Cewch, wrth gwrs. 

Yes, of course.

So, mae gyda chi rhyw fath o gynllun ariannu gan Lywodraeth Cymru, ac rwy'n cymryd bod hynny yn erbyn rhyw fath o dargedau. 

So, you have some sort of funding plan from Welsh Government, and I take it that that is subject to targets. 

So, sut ydych chi'n datblygu'r targedau? Ydych chi'n cytuno'r rhain gyda Llywodraeth Cymru? 

So, how do you develop those targets? Do you agree these with the Welsh Government? 

Rydyn ni'n eu cytuno nhw ar ddechrau blwyddyn— 

We agree them at the beginning of a year—

Ac rydych chi'n reportio nôl—

And you report back—

—cyfarfod y prynhawn yma—ac yn edrych ymlaen i beth ydy rhaglen y flwyddyn nesaf. Wrth gwrs, mae hynny'n gorfod bod ynghlwm hefyd efo ein gwaith ehangach ni o fewn Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru. So, rydyn ni'n sicrhau bod beth rydyn ni'n gweithio efo'r Llywodraeth arno fo hefyd yn bwydo i mewn ac allan o'r cyngor celfyddydau. 

—this afternoon's meeting—and we look forward to the programme for next year. Of course, that has to be joined up with our broader work within the arts council. So, we ensure that what we're working with the Government on also feeds into and out of the arts council.  

Ie, mae'r ddau gyda ni hefyd. Mae'n rhoi cyd-destun i'r gwaith rŷm ni'n wneud, a chyd-destun sydd yn gydnabyddedig ar lefel lywodraethol rhwng y ddwy wlad, ac wedyn rŷm ni'n gweithredu o fewn hynny. Rwy'n credu hefyd, efallai, o ran y ffordd mae'r cynllun wedi bod yn fudd o ran cefnogi ymweliadau gwleidyddol a diplomyddol, dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna wedi rhoi ffocws i beth yw'r trafodaethau, mewn ffordd. Roedd gyda ni'r Gweinidog MacNeill gyda ni wythnos diwethaf ar gyfer Dydd San Padrig, er enghraifft, ac roedd e'n rhoi ffocws i'r drafodaeth gyda'r Gweinidog—y ffaith bod y cynllun gweithredu'n bodoli, ac wedyn o fewn hwnna fod gyda ni femorandwm arbennig gydag Amgueddfa Genedlaethol Iwerddon. 

Yes, it's both with us, too. It gives the context for the work that we do, and a context that is recognised at Government level in both nations, and we then work within that. I think, in terms of the way that the strategy has been of benefit in developing diplomatic ties and visits, it's given a focus to the discussions that we've had. We had Minister MacNeill with us last week for the St Patrick's Day event, and discussions with the Minister had a focus because we had that action plan and, within that, a memorandum of understanding with the museum in Ireland, too.  

A'r un cwestiwn y gwnes i ei ofyn i Eluned: ydych chi'n cytuno ar dargedau gyda Llywodraeth Cymru ymlaen llaw? 

And the same question as I asked Eluned: do you agree targets with Welsh Government beforehand? 

Ydyn, ac mae hwnna fel rhan o'r gwaith o ran y cylch gorchwyl sydd gyda ni gyda'r Llywodraeth. 

Yes, we do, and that is as part of the work on the remit that we have with the Government. 

Ie, yr un peth eto. Agor drysau mae'r cynllun, ac dyna mae swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru yn Iwerddon yn gwneud i ni fel mudiad trydydd sector—agor y drws i fudiadau ieuenctid sy'n bodoli a wedyn rhoi cyfle i'r partneriaethau yna ddatblygu. Felly, mae TG Lurgan, ein partner ni efo gwaith ieuenctid, yn un, ond wedyn maen nhw'n agor drysau i gysylltiadau newydd. Eto, fel ymweliad sydd newydd fod, mae'n agor drws i fudiadau diwylliant maes ieuenctid, sy'n rhoi cyfle i ni wedyn, fel rhan o brosiectau sydd gyda ni ar y gweill—cwmni theatr yr Urdd yn un, fel enghraifft—i ddatblygu a gweld cyfleoedd eraill drwy raglen Taith i sicrhau bod ein pobl ifanc ni yn cael y cyfleoedd.

Rydyn ni'n adrodd nôl ar dargedau o ran ymrwymiad, niferoedd ein pobl ifanc ni, ac, yn amlwg, fel y soniwyd gynnau hefyd, mae yna arian yn dod gan y Llywodraeth i gefnogi rhai o'r prosiectau yma i sicrhau eu bod nhw'n brosiectau sydd ddim yn gofyn am unrhyw gyfraniad ariannol gan ein pobl ifanc ni, sy'n golygu, wrth gwrs, ein bod ni wedyn yn estyn allan i gynulleidfa eang yng Nghymru. Dwi'n falch i ddweud bod rhwng 10 y cant ac 20 y cant o'r bobl ifanc sy'n rhan o'r ymweliadau yma yn dod o deuluoedd difreintiedig. Rydyn ni eisiau sicrhau bod y ffigwr yna'n cynyddu'n barhaus, hefyd. 

Yes, the same again. The plan opens doors, and Welsh Government and Irish Government officials open the door for us to third sector youth organisations, and they enable those partnerships to develop. So, we have TG Lurgan as a partner on youth work, but that then opens doors to new relationships. Again, a recent visit opened doors in terms of culture for young people, and that provides an opportunity for us, as part of projects that we have ongoing—the Urdd theatre company, for example—to develop and to see other opportunities through the Taith programme to ensure that our young people have those opportunities.

We report back on targets in terms of commitment, the numbers of our young people taking part, and, as Eluned said, the funding comes from the Government to support some of these projects to ensure that they are projects that don't require any funding from our young people, which means that we reach a wide audience in Wales. I'm pleased to say that between 10 per cent and 20 per cent of the young people who are part of these visits come from deprived backgrounds. We want to ensure that that figure continues to increase. 

11:10

Diolch. Dwi'n gwerthfawrogi hynny. 

Thank you. I appreciate that. 

Alun, sori i dorri ar draws, ond, Heledd, oeddet ti eisiau dod mewn?

Alun, sorry to interrupt, but, Heledd, did you want to come in? 

Roeddwn i eisiau gofyn yn sydyn o ran—mae'n ddrwg gen i, Alun—swyddfa Cymru yn Iwerddon. Rydych chi wedi pwysleisio pwysigrwydd y swyddfa honno. Oes yna rywbeth rydych chi eisiau dweud o ran yr adnoddau? Ydych chi'n meddwl ein bod ni'n rhoi digon o adnoddau i'r swyddfa yna? Ydych chi'n meddwl bod yna ddigon o bwyslais, neu ydyn ni'n colli cyfleoedd i wneud hyd yn oed mwy, oherwydd tîm cymharol bach sydd yn dal yn fanna?

I just wanted to ask briefly—sorry, Alun—about the Welsh office in Ireland. You've emphasised the importance of that office being located there. Is there anything that you want to say in terms of the resource? Do you think that we allocate sufficient resources to that office? Do you think there's enough emphasis on its work, or do you think that we're missing opportunities to do even more, because it's still a relatively small team there?

Dwi'n meddwl mai'r broblem fwyaf gyda swyddfeydd tramor yn gyffredinol ydy trosiant y staff, oherwydd y natur a'u bod nhw ddim ond mewn lle am ddwy flynedd neu bedair blynedd. Mae hwnna'n ei gwneud hi'n heriol iawn, achos mae lot o'n gwaith ni wedyn yn ymwneud efo hyfforddi staff newydd a dod â staff i fyny i wybod am bopeth sy'n mynd ymlaen. Hefyd, mae colli cof corfforaethol yn anorfod. 

I think the biggest problem with foreign offices is the turnover of staff. Because of the nature of the work, they're only there for two years or four years, and that makes it very challenging, because a lot of our work then is involved with training new staff and bringing them up to speed in order to know about everything that's going on. Also, the loss of corporate memory is inevitable. 

Ie, mae hwnna'n bendant yn wir. Wrth gwrs, rŷn ni'n meddwl am gynllunio hirdymor, felly mae'r newid yna yn y staff yn ei gwneud hi'n anoddach gwneud hynny. 

Yes, that's certainly true. Of course, we think about long-term plans, and having that churn means it's more difficult to do that. 

Ond maen nhw'n dîm tyngedfennol, a dwi'n meddwl bod swyddfa Iwerddon yn un bwysig. Mae eisiau meddwl am le mae'r swyddfa, hefyd. A ddylai'r swyddfa fod o fewn llysgenhadaeth Brydeinig, neu a ddylai fod yna bresenoldeb diwylliannol ehangach? Dwi'n meddwl bod yna ddadl dros ystyried beth ydy'r modelau gwahanol, fel mae'r Alban wedi gwneud, yn rhyngwladol.

But they're a crucial team, and I think the Ireland office is an important one. We also need to think about where the office actually is. Should it be in the British embassy, or should there be a broader cultural presence there? I think there's an argument for considering different models, just as Scotland have done, on an international basis.

O ran yr atebion blaenorol, dwi'n falch iawn o glywed bod yna dargedau wedi'u cytuno rhyngoch chi a Llywodraeth Cymru. Efallai y byddai'n syniad i ni fel pwyllgor ysgrifennu at y Gweinidog a gofyn i weld y rhain cyn i'r Gweinidog ymddangos o'n blaenau ni. Byddwn i'n gwerthfawrogi hynny.

So, i ddilyn hyn ymlaen, dwi'n cytuno gyda'ch pwynt, Eluned, amboutu trosiant staff. Mae hynny'n rhywbeth eithaf diweddar, fel mae'n digwydd, ond mae'n rhywbeth efallai y dylem ni ei ddilyn i fyny gyda materion eraill. Ond, rydych chi wedi siarad amboutu digwyddiadau penodol, megis cwpan y byd, a dwi'n gweld y gwaith yna yn mynd yn ei flaen. Fel rhywun a oedd yn Qatar rai misoedd yn ôl, mae'n rhywbeth, dwi'n credu, a oedd yn bwysig i ni fel gwlad. Ond dwi'n meddwl hefyd fod yn rhaid i ni ddilyn i fyny â gwaith parhaus a dim jest dibynnu ar Gymru yn 'qualify-o' ar gyfer y pethau yma. So, mae strategaeth ryngwladol y Llywodraeth wedi gosod rhai blaenoriaethau o ran perthnasau rhyngwladol. Ydych chi'n gweld gwersi o'ch gwaith chi gydag Iwerddon sy'n gallu cyfrannu at waith rhyngwladol ehangach y Llywodraeth?

In terms of the previous answers, I'm very pleased to hear that targets have been agreed between you and Welsh Government. Perhaps it would be an idea for us as a committee to write to the Minister and ask to see these before the Minister appears before us. I'd appreciate that.

So, just to follow on, I agree with your point, Eluned, about staff turnover. That is something that's quite recent, as it happens, but perhaps it's something that we should be following up with other issues. But, you have spoken about specific events such as the world cup, and I see that work ongoing. As somebody who was in Qatar a few months ago, it is something that I think was important for us to do as a country. But I also think that we need to follow that up with continuous work and not just depend on Wales qualifying for these events. The Government's international strategy has set out some priorities in terms of international relations. Do you see that there are lessons to be learnt from your work with Ireland that can contribute to the broader international work of the Government?

Ydw. Dwi'n meddwl bod yna lot i'w dysgu ohono fo, a dweud y gwir, a dyna pam dwi'n meddwl ei fod o'n beth da bod yr adolygiad yma'n un parhaus a bod y gwaith yn tyfu, nid jest yn aros yn llonydd. Dwi'n meddwl yn benodol, o gwmpas ochr iaith, fod diddordeb cynyddol yn beth mae Cymru'n gwneud—y gwaith iaith—yn rhyngwladol. Fe wnaeth cwpan y byd roi spotlight ar hynny hefyd, mewn ffordd. Ond mae yna gyfle i gydweithio yn y maes iaith. Ond hefyd, o ran dad-drefedigaethu'n rhyngwladol, beth ydy perthynas ein diwylliannau Celtaidd ni efo diwylliannau brodorol o gwmpas y byd? Beth ydy'r trafodaethau sy'n digwydd o fewn degawd y Cenhedloedd Unedig, a bwydo beth rydyn ni'n dygsu yn ôl i mewn i sut rydyn ni'n gweithio yma? Achos rydyn ni'n dysgu. Rydyn ni i gyd ar daith, a dwi'n meddwl bod gweithio mewn rhwydweithiau rhyngwladol yn hynod bwysig, achos trwy rwydweithio—ac mae Iwerddon yn rhan o hynny hefo ni—dyna sut rydyn ni'n dysgu sut i ddatblygu a thyfu'r gwaith sydd gyda ni yma, ochr yn ochr efo beth sy'n mynd ymlaen yn rhyngwladol. Dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna'n rili pwysig, ac efo Iwerddon yn benodol. 

Yes, I think there is a great deal to learn from it, and that's why I think it is a very good thing that this review is ongoing, that the work develops and doesn't just stand still. I think, specifically in terms of language, that there is increased interest in terms of the work that Wales does on language internationally. The world cup placed a spotlight on that, too. But there are opportunities to collaborate in terms of language. But with regard to decolonisation internationally, what is the relationship of our Celtic cultures with indigenous communities around the world? What discussions are taking place as part of the United Nations decade, and how do we feed what we learn into our ways of working? We are learning. We're all on this journey, and I think that working in these international networks is vitally important, because, by networking—and Ireland is part of that work with us—we learn how to develop and grow our work here, alongside what is happening internationally. I think that's very important, and specifically so in relation to Ireland. 

Yn sicr, buaswn i'n cytuno efo beth mae Eluned wedi dweud, a dwi'n credu ein bod ni wedi dysgu, pan fydd yna feysydd ehangach fel UNESCO a Degawd Ieithoedd Brodorol y byd, sut allwn ni fel cenedl gyfranogi o fewn y trafodaethau yna. Hefyd, dwi'n meddwl bod fframwaith cenedlaethau'r dyfodol o ddiddordeb—ac, fel mae Eluned wedi sôn, mae deddfwriaeth yn Iwerddon—ac mae yna ddiddordeb rhyngwladol yn hwnna a sut rydyn ni'n proffilio hwnna. A hefyd dwi'n meddwl, i fi, o ran ein maes ni, dwi'n meddwl bod twristiaeth ddiwylliannol a beth allwn ni ddysgu o eraill yn hwnna yn faes, efallai, i'w adeiladu, ac yn faes sydd ddim wedi datblygu gymaint ag y gallai fe ar hyn o bryd.

Certainly, I would agree with what Eluned has said, and I think we've learnt, when there are broader areas such as UNESCO and world Indigenous Languages Decade, how we as a nation can participate within those discussions. I also think that the future generations framework is of interest—there is legislation, as Eluned has said, in Ireland—of international interest, and how we profile it. And I think, for me, in terms of our area, the cultural tourism aspect and what we can learn from others in that regard is perhaps an aspect to be developed, and one that perhaps hasn't yet developed as much as it could have done. 

Yn sicr, dwi'n meddwl, o'r gwaith rydyn ni wedi'i wneud yn Iwerddon, mae'r sefydliadau dŷn ni'n gweithio gyda nhw yn arweinwyr byd pan fo hi'n dod i farchnata ieithoedd lleiafrifol yn ddigidol. TG Lurgan yw y sianel YouTube mwyaf llwyddiannus mewn iaith leiafrifol i ieuenctid. Felly, fel mudiad, fel gwlad, mae gyda ni lot i ddysgu o ran beth maen nhw'n ei wneud, ac mae gyda nhw hefyd lot i ddysgu o ran beth dŷn ni'n ei wneud yng Nghymru, a'r niferoedd hynny ymysg ieuenctid sydd yn siarad Cymraeg. Felly, rhannu'r arferion da hynny a gweld ble arall o gwmpas y byd y gallwn ni ddysgu oddi wrthynt. Dwi'n meddwl bod y ddegawd a'r trafodaethau gydag UNESCO yn agor y drws i hynny. Mae yna gryn ddiddordeb yn y gwaith dŷn ni'n ei wneud efo pobl ifanc o fewn yr iaith ac i rannu gyda gwledydd eraill. Felly, yn sicr, dysgu o'r hyn sy'n digwydd yn Iwerddon a'i ehangu fe i wledydd eraill.

Certainly, in terms of the work that we've done in Ireland, the organisations that we work with are global leaders in terms of marketing minority languages digitally. TG Lurgan is the most successful YouTube channel in a minority language for young people. So, as an organisation, as a nation, we have a lot to learn from what they do, and they also have a lot to learn from what what we do in Wales in terms of the number of young people who speak Welsh. So, it's sharing that good practice and seeing where else around the world we can learn from. I think that the decade and the discussions with UNESCO open the door to that. There's a great deal of interest in the work that we do with young people around the language, and to share that with other nations. So, we certainly need to learn from what's happening in Ireland and expand it to other nations too.

11:15

Rydych chi wedi dweud rhywbeth fanna gwnaeth fy synnu i, mai sianel YouTube fwyaf llwyddiannus y byd—

You've said something there that surprised me, that the most successful YouTube channel in the world—

Mewn iaith leiafrifol.

In a minority language.

—yw'r sianel yma yn yr Wyddeleg. Yn amlwg, dwi ddim wedi gweld honno. So, pam, felly? Beth dŷch chi wedi ei ddysgu o fanna?

—is this Irish channel. Obviously, I haven't seen this. So, why, therefore? What have you learnt from that?

Mae'n ddifyr iawn. Beth maen nhw'n ei wneud, yn syml—mae'n syniad syml iawn—yw maen nhw'n cyfieithu caneuon Saesneg i mewn i'r iaith Wyddeleg. Felly, maen nhw yn manteisio ar rywbeth sydd ag ymwybyddiaeth uchel iawn ar draws y byd a'i throsi fe i'r iaith sydd yn gyfarwydd i bobl ifanc. Dwi'n meddwl bod yn rhaid inni dderbyn gyda phobl ifanc eu bod nhw'n cael eu dylanwadu gan iaith sy'n dominyddu. Ond drwy glywed a gweld pobl ifanc eraill yn siarad iaith leiafrifol, mae'n rhoi hyder iddyn nhw a balchder o ran yr iaith. Felly, mae'n sicr yn bartneriaeth ddwyffordd lle gallwn ni ddysgu oddi wrth ein gilydd. Mae yna gyfle i Gymru, a ni drwy'r Urdd, sicrhau ein bod ni'n dysgu mwy gan y gwaith gwych maen nhw'n ei wneud.

It's very interesting. What they do, simply—it's a very simple idea—is that they translate English songs into the Irish language. So, they take advantage of something that has a very high level of awareness globally and they translate it into language that's familiar to young people. I think that we have to accept with young people that they are influenced by the dominant language. But by hearing and seeing other young people speaking a minority language, it gives them confidence and develops their pride in the language. So, it certainly is a two-way partnership where we can learn from each other. There's an opportunity for Wales, and us as the Urdd, to ensure that we learn more from the excellent work they do.

Mae'r tair ohonoch chi wedi bod yn bositif iawn amboutu pob dim, a dwi'n falch iawn o hynny, gyda llaw. Ar ôl y sesiwn cyntaf, dwi'n arbennig o falch. Oes yna rywbeth sydd ddim wedi llwyddo? Dwi wedi rhedeg rhaglenni pan oedd gen i job go iawn, ac ambell waith dŷch chi'n dysgu mwy o fethiant na llwyddiant, wrth gwrs. Oes yna rywbeth ble dŷch chi wedi dysgu gwersi fel, 'Dŷn ni wedi datblygu'r gwaith yma o bethau sydd ddim wedi gweithio'?

The three of you have been very positive about everything, and I'm very pleased about that. After the first session, I'm very pleased. Is there anything that hasn't succeeded? I've run programmes, when I had a real job, and sometimes you learn more from failure than success, of course. Is there something where you've learned lessons such as, 'We've developed this work from things that haven't worked'?

Os dŷn ni'n edrych nôl i 2020, roedd yna ffocws ar Ddulyn ac Iwerddon, ac yn anffodus daeth COVID, yn amlwg. Mae yna ffocws ar hyn o bryd ar Ffrainc. Dwi'n meddwl, i edrych yn y tymor hir, oes yna gyfleoedd i ni edrych ar y gwledydd hynny am gyfnod hirach? Mae gwaith rhyngwladol yn golygu creu partneriaethau, parhau'r trafodaethau yna. Mae rhoi blwyddyn efallai ddim yn ddigon o amser, so oes yna gyfleoedd i edrych ar gyfnod hirach mewn gwlad er mwyn sicrhau'r cyfleoedd i ddatblygu partneraethau? Efallai dyna'r adborth byddwn i'n ei ychwanegu.

If we look back at 2020, there was a focus on Dublin and Ireland, and, unfortunately, COVID came along. There is a focus now on France. I think, to look over the long term, are there opportunities for us to look at those nations for a longer period of time? International work means forging partnerships and continuing with those discussions. Perhaps a year isn't long enough, so are there opportunities to look at longer periods of time based in a nation to ensure that there are those opportunities to develop those partnerships? Perhaps that would be the feedback that I would add.

Byddwn i'n cytuno gyda hwnna, a hefyd meddwl 'Allwn ni ddim gwneud pob peth, so ble sydd orau inni ganolbwyntio? Ble mae'r gwerthoedd rhwng y gwledydd yn debyg?' ac adeiladu ar hwnna. Mae hwn yn waith hirdymor. Mae'n cymryd amser i adeiladu partneriaethau sydd yn bartneriaethau gyda phwrpas, yn hytrach na phartneriaethau jest achos eich bod chi'n moyn partneriaethau, a phartneriaethau sy'n gallu arwain at impacts go iawn. Mae hwnna yn cymryd amser.

I would agree with that, and also to think, 'We can't do everything, so where is best for us to focus on? Where are there similar values between the countries?' and build on that. But this is long-term work. It takes time to build partnerships that are partnerships with purpose, rather than partnerships just because you want partnerships, and partnerships that can lead to real impacts. That takes time.

I fi, dwi'n meddwl bod—dwi'n cytuno'n llwyr efo beth sydd wedi cael ei ddweud, gyda llaw—yna le hefyd i wella beth rydyn ni'n ei ofyn o sefydliadau Prydeinig. Dwi'n meddwl hyn yn arbennig o fod wedi ymweld efo UNESCO wythnos diwethaf a gwybod mai grŵp o fewn y Deyrnas Unedig efo UNESCO ydyn ni. Mae'r Iwerddon efo'i llais ei hunan. Ond mae yna wledydd eraill sydd efo rhai o'u gwledydd datganoledig—Cook Islands yn Seland Newydd, er enghraifft—lle mae ganddyn nhw aelodau mwy blaenllaw mewn rhai rhaglenni UNESCO lle mae o'n gwneud synnwyr iddyn nhw. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod angen gofyn ychydig bach mwy allan o, efallai, y Llywodraeth Brydeinig hefyd mewn meysydd diwylliant, bod yna fwy i'w ennill yno hefyd.

For me—I agree entirely with what's already been said—there is also scope to improve what we require from British organisations and institutions, particularly having visited UNESCO last week. We're a group within the United Kingdom in terms of UNESCO, and Ireland is a voice on its own. But there are other nations that have devolved nations, such as the Cook Islands in New Zealand, and they have a more prominent role in some UNESCO programmes where it makes sense for them. So, I think we do need to ask a little bit more of the UK Government, perhaps, when it comes to culture, because there is more to gain there too.

Buasai'n bwysig inni ddilyn hynny i fyny fel rhan o'r gwaith yma.

It would be important for us to follow that up as part of our work.

Gaf i jest ofyn un cwestiwn olaf?

May I just ask one final question?

Rydych chi wedi sôn amboutu blwyddyn Ffrainc. Dŷn ni ddim yn trafod Ffrainc y bore yma, ond oes modd i chi ysgrifennu at y pwyllgor gyda'ch cynlluniau chi ar gyfer blwyddyn Ffrainc i ni ddeall hynny fel rhan o'n gwaith ehangach ni? Ond dŷn ni ddim eisiau mynd ar ôl hynny y bore yma.

You have mentioned the year of France. We're not discussing France this morning, but could you write to the committee with your plans for this year in France so that we can understand that as part of our broader work? But we don't want to go after that today.

Grêt. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Cyn i ni symud at Tom Giffard, Nia, roeddech chi wedi dweud rhywbeth rili diddorol am fod yna ddeddfwriaeth sy'n debyg i Ddeddf llesiant cenedlaethau'r dyfodol yn mynd ymlaen—sori, ai Nia oedd wedi dweud hyn, neu Eluned? Mae'n flin gen i. Roedd Eluned wedi dweud rhywbeth, ac wedyn, Nia, roeddech chi wedi atgyfnerthu hynny; sori. Roeddech chi'n dweud ei fod e ddim yn mynd i gynnwys diwylliant yn rhan o hynny. Mi wnawn ni edrych mewn i hyn. Os ydy hynny yn wir, beth ydych chi'n meddwl fyddai yn cael ei golli drwy hynny? Dwi'n gwybod fod hyn yn eithaf tangential i beth ŷn ni'n sôn amdano, ond dwi'n meddwl hefyd ei fod e efallai'n hollbwysig i hyn.

Great. Thank you very much. Before we move on to Tom Giffard, Nia, you said something really interesting about the fact that there's legislation similar to the well-being of future generations Act—sorry, was it Nia or Eluned? I apologise. Eluned said something, and then Nia, you reinforced that. You said that it's not going to include culture as part of that. We'll look into this, but if that's true, what do you think would be missed in terms of that? I know it's quite tangential to what we're discussing, but I think it's also vital to this.

11:20

Efallai bod yna gyfarfod llawn i'w gael ar y maes yma, i fod yn onest. I fod yn glir, doedd o ddim yn rhan o'r Bil oedd yng Nghymru yn wreiddiol, chwaith. Mi wnaethon ni fel cyngor y celfyddydau roi gwelliant i mewn yn dilyn cyfarfod rownd y gornel yma ar agenda 21 efo cynghorau lleol rhyngwladol oedd yn annog ni i wneud hynny—eu bod nhw wedi eu gwneud nhw yn y llywodraethau lleol, ond Cymru ddaeth y wlad gyntaf i roi diwylliant fel pedwerydd piler datblygu cynaliadwy yn y byd, a dyna wnaeth arwain i'r Cenhedloedd Unedig ddweud beth mae Cymru'n gwneud heddiw bydd gweddill y byd yn gwneud yfory. A dwi yn meddwl ei fod o'n gwneud gwahaniaeth ar draws sut ydyn ni'n cydweithio yn y sector cyhoeddus. Rydyn ni rŵan efo partneriaethu yng nghyngor y celfyddydau efo Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru, a rhaglenni fyddai ddim wedi cael eu hystyried o'r blaen. Mae cyrff eraill yn gorfod meddwl beth ydy eu cyfraniad nhw tuag at iaith a diwylliant mewn ffyrdd nad oedden nhw'n gwneud o'r blaen. Ac wrth gwrs mae'r nodau hynny hefyd yn ateb yn uniongyrchol i'r nodau byd-eang sydd gan y Cenhedloedd Unedig. Felly dwi'n meddwl bod yna wersi difyr iawn, ac roedd yna ddiddordeb mawr yn Iwerddon y mis diwethaf pan oedden ni allan ar y ddirprwyaeth i fod yn edrych i mewn i fod yn dysgu o beth mae Cymru'n ei wneud.

Perhaps there is a full meeting to be had on this, to be honest. To be clear, it wasn't part of the Bill in Wales originally. We as an arts council submitted an amendment so that it would be included, following a meeting on agenda 21 with international local authorities that encouraged us to do that—that they had done it in local governments, but Wales became the first nation to place culture as a fourth pillar of sustainable development, and that's what led the UN to say that what Wales is doing today, the rest of the world will be doing tomorrow. And I think it makes a difference in terms of how we collaborate across the public sector. We have partnerships in the arts council with Natural Resources Wales, and these issues are now being considered for the first time. Other bodies have to consider their contribution to culture and the language in a way that they hadn't done before, and the aims and objectives of the legislation reflect the UN goals globally. So, I think there are very interesting lessons to be learned, and there was a great deal of interest in Ireland last month when we were there, to look into and learn from what Wales is doing.

Byddai'n fuddiol, os yn bosibl, i ni glywed mwy. Efallai byddech chi'n gallu ysgrifennu atom ni gyda mwy o wybodaeth am hynny. Mae hynny'n rhywbeth hollbwysig. So, diolch i chi am hynny. Sori imi feddwl mai Nia oedd e. Oedd un ohonoch chi, Mali neu Nia, eisiau jest ychwanegu unrhyw beth ynglŷn â hynny, ynglŷn â beth fyddai hynny'n golygu os nad oedd y wers yna ddim yn cael ei dysgu gan Iwerddon ar y dechrau?

It would be beneficial, if possible, to learn more, if you could write to us with more information about that. That is something that's vital. So, thank you for that. Sorry that I thought it was Nia. Was there anything you wanted to add to that, Mali or Nia, about what that would mean if that lesson wasn't learnt from Ireland at the beginning?

Byddai fe'n sicr wedi gwanhau yn ofnadwy ein gwaith ni. Dwi'n credu rŷn ni fel amgueddfa wedi gallu gweithio gyda iechyd a lles yng Nghymru drwy'r pandemig mewn ffordd wahanol, oherwydd bod y ddeddfwriaeth yna'n bodoli, ac yn rhoi cyd-destun inni. Dwi'n dal yn teimlo efallai mai diwylliant yw’r darn gwannaf o'r pedwar piler o fewn y ddeddfwriaeth, ac roedd hwnna'n sgwrs rôn ni'n trafod gyda chomisiynydd cenedlaethau’r dyfodol, y comisiynydd newydd, rhyw bythefnos yn ôl. Dyw diwylliant, er enghraifft, ddim ar y PSBs yng Nghymru, felly mae hwnna yn faes efallai sydd dal angen esblygu, i ni ddeall yn llwyr y manteision o gael diwylliant o gwmpas y bwrdd pan ŷn ni'n trafod pethau fel regeneration ac yn y blaen.

It certainly would have weakened our work. We as a museum have been able to work with health and well-being throughout the pandemic in a different way, because that legislation existed and gave us that context. I still believe that culture is the weak point in terms of the four pillars in the legislation. That was a conversation that I had with the future generations commissioner, the new commissioner, around a fortnight ago. Because culture, for example, isn't on the PSBs in Wales, so that's an area that still needs to be developed, so that we can understand completely the idea of having culture round the table when we talk about regeneration and so on.

Diolch yn fawr iawn am hynny. Mi wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Tom Giffard.

Thank you very much for that. We'll move on to Tom Giffard.