Pwyllgor Diwylliant, Cyfathrebu, y Gymraeg, Chwaraeon, a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol

Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

17/11/2022

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Alun Davies
Carolyn Thomas
Delyth Jewell Cadeirydd
Chair
Hefin David
Heledd Fychan
Sioned Williams
Tom Giffard

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Bethan Webb Llywodraeth Cymru
Welsh Government
Jeremy Miles Gweinidog y Gymraeg ac Addysg
Minister for Education and the Welsh Language
Siwan Jones Llywodraeth Cymru
Welsh Government

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Craig Griffiths Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
Lleu Williams Clerc
Clerk
Michael Dauncey Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Osian Bowyer Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Robin Wilkinson Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Tanwen Summers Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Cyfarfu’r pwyllgor yn y Senedd a thrwy gynhadledd fideo.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:30. 

The committee met in the Senedd and by video-conference.

The meeting began at 09:30.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Bore da. Rwy'n croesawu'r Aelodau i'r cyfarfod hwn o'r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, Cyfathrebu, y Gymraeg, Chwaraeon, a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol. Oes gan unrhyw Aelodau fuddiannau i'w datgan, os gwelwch yn dda? Dwi ddim yn gweld bod. Felly, fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen. Byddwn ni, yn hwyrach y bore yma, yn croesawu Sioned Williams i ymuno â ni. Dŷn ni wedi derbyn ymddiheuriadau gan Buffy Williams. Maen nhw'n mynd i fod yn ymuno o'r Pwyllgor, Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg ar gyfer y sesiwn olaf o'r ymchwiliad ar y cyd i gynlluniau strategol y Gymraeg mewn addysg. Felly, o flaen llaw, dŷn ni'n croesawu Sioned i ymuno â ni.

Good morning, and I welcome the Members to this meeting of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee. Do Members have any declarations of interest? I don't see that they do. So, we'll move on. We will be, later this morning, welcoming Sioned Williams, who will be joining us, and we have received apologies from Buffy Williams. They are going to be joining from the Children, Young People and Education Committee for the final session of the joint inquiry on Welsh in education strategic plans. So, beforehand, we welcome Sioned to join us.

2. Papurau i'w nodi
2. Papers to note

Gwnaf symud at eitem 2, sef papurau i'w nodi. Mae yna sawl un: eitem 2.1, llythyr at Ddirprwy Weinidog y Celfyddydau a Chwaraeon, a'r Prif Chwip, gan gadeirydd Cyngor Gweithredol Cymru ynghylch Newsquest; 2.2, llythyr at Ddirprwy Weinidog y Celfyddydau a Chwaraeon a'r Prif Chwip gennym ni ynglŷn ag ymchwiliad undydd y pwyllgor ar effaith costau cynyddol; a 2.3, yn debyg; 2.4, llythyr atom ni gan y Llywydd ynghylch y memorandwm cydsyniad deddfwriaethol ar Fil Protocol Gogledd Iwerddon; 2.5, llythyr atom ni gan y pennaeth newyddion a rhaglenni, ITV Cymru, ynghylch y Bil cyfryngau; a 2.6, hysbysiad i'r wasg gan Rubicon Dance; eitem 2.7, gwybodaeth ychwanegol gan Darren Price, arweinydd Cyngor Sir Gâr, yn dilyn y sesiwn dystiolaeth ar 13 Hydref; ac, yn olaf, 2.8, gwybodaeth ychwanegol gan Mudiad Meithrin yn dilyn y sesiwn dystiolaeth ar yr un diwrnod. Ydy Aelodau'n fodlon nodi'r papurau yna ar y record? Ydych. Reit, ocê. 

I'll move on to item 2, papers to note. There are several papers to note: 2.1, letter to the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport, and Chief Whip, from the chair of the Welsh Executive Council in terms of Newsquest; 2.2, a letter to the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport, and Chief Whip, from us about the one-day inquiry on the impact of increasing costs; and 2.3 is a similar one; 2.4, a letter to us from the Llywydd regarding the legislative consent memorandum on the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill; 2.5, a letter to us from the head of news and programmes, ITV Cymru, regarding the proposed media Bill; and 2.6, a press notice from Rubicon Dance; 2.7, additional information from Darren Price, leader of Carmarthenshire County Council, following the evidence session on 13 October; and, finally, 2.8, additional information from Mudiad Meithrin following the evidence session on the same day. Are Members content to note those papers on the record? Yes. Good.  

3. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(ix) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o eitemau 4, 5, 6 ac 8
3. Motion under Standing Order 17.42(ix) to resolve to exclude the public from items 4, 5, 6 and 8

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o eitemau 4, 5, 6 ac 8 yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(ix).

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from items 4, 5, 6 and 8 in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Felly, rwy'n cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42 ein bod ni yn gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod heddiw, a bydd hwnna ar gyfer eitem 4, eitem 5, eitem 6 ac eitem 8. Byddwn ni'n fyw—byddwn i'n dweud wrth unrhyw un sy'n gwylio—o 10:30 tan 11:30 gyda'r Gweinidog. Ydy'r Aelodau yn fodlon i ni wahardd y cyhoedd o'r eitemau hynny? Iawn, rwy'n gweld ein bod ni. Mae Heledd wedi rhoi ei llaw i fyny.

So, I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of today's meeting, for items 4, 5, 6 and 8. We'll be live—for anybody watching—between 10:30 and 11:30 with the Minister. Are Members content for us to exclude the public from those items? I see that you are. Heledd has put her hand up. 

Ydw, ond mi oeddwn i, tra rydym yn gyhoeddus, jest eisiau nodi, o ran llythyr 2.1, fy mod i'n cytuno bod yn rhaid i ni edrych a thrafod yn bellach o ran y cwestiynau dilys, yn fy marn i, sy'n cael eu codi ynglŷn â'r gwariant hynny, ac o ran sefyllfa Golwg, yn sicr. Felly, roeddwn i jest eisiau nodi hynny ar y record cyhoeddus.

Yes, but whilst we're in public, I just wanted to note, in terms of letter 2.1, that I agree that we do need to look at this and discuss it further, with regard to the valid questions, in my view, that are raised with regard to that expenditure, and with regard to the situation in terms of Golwg in particular. So, I just wanted to note that on the public record. 

Diolch, Heledd. Oes unrhyw un arall eisiau dweud unrhyw beth ar yr eitem yna, neu a ydych chi'n hapus i'r remarks yna fod ar y record? Iawn, ôce. Grêt. Felly, ydy pawb yn hapus i ni wahardd y cyhoedd o'r eitemau roeddwn i wedi sôn amdanynt? Rwy'n gweld eich bod chi. Felly, rwy'n penderfynu y byddwn ni'n parhau yn breifat. Rhaid i ni aros i glywed ein bod ni'n breifat. 

Thank you, Heledd. Does anybody else want to say anything on that item, or are you content for those remarks to be on the record? Okay, great. So, is everyone content for us to exclude the public from the items that I mentioned? I see that you are. So, I'll decide that we will continue in private, and I'll wait to hear that we're in private.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 09:33. 

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 09:33. 

10:30

Ailymgynullodd y pwyllgor yn gyhoeddus am 10:31.

The committee reconvened in public at 10:31.

7. Cynlluniau Strategol Cymraeg mewn Addysg: Sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda Llywodraeth Cymru
7. Welsh in Education Strategic Plans (WESPS): Evidence session with the Welsh Government

Helo. Bore da eto. Croeso nôl. Dŷn ni nawr yn symud at eitem 7, sef sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda Llywodraeth Cymru ar gynlluniau strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg. Gwnaf i ofyn i'n tystion sydd gyda ni yn rhithiol i gyflwyno'u hunain ar gyfer y record. Gwnaf i fynd atoch chi, Weinidog, yn gyntaf.

Hello. Good morning once again. Welcome back. We now move on to item 7, which is our evidence session with the Welsh Government on the Welsh in education strategic plans. I'll ask all witnesses joining us virtually to introduce themselves for the record. I'll come to you, Minister, first of all.

Jeremy Miles, Gweinidog y Gymraeg ac Addysg.

Jeremy Miles, Minister for Education and Welsh Language.

Diolch am hynna. Bethan, allaf i ofyn ichi gyflwyno'ch hunan?

Thank you for that. Bethan, could I ask you to introduce yourself?

Bethan Webb, dirprwy gyfarwyddwr 'Cymraeg 2050'.

 Bethan Webb, deputy director 'Cymraeg 2050'.

Diolch am hynna. A Siwan.

Thank you for that. Siwan.

Siwan Jones, pennaeth y gangen cynllunio Cymraeg mewn addysg.

Siwan Jones, head of Welsh in education planning.

Diolch ichi i gyd am fod gyda ni bore yma. Dim ond jest llai nag awr sydd gyda ni, felly gwnawn ni fynd yn syth at gwestiynau, os ydy hwnna'n iawn. Gwnaf i fynd yn gyntaf at Alun Davies.

Thank you for joining us this morning. We've only got an hour this morning, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. I'll go straight to Alun Davies.

Diolch yn fawr. Diolch ichi am eich amser, Gweinidog. Rŷch chi wedi bod yn dweud eich bod chi'n edrych ar sut ŷch chi'n datblygu addysg Gymraeg, ac rŷch chi wedi bod yn trafod y potensial o Fil addysg Gymraeg. Ydych chi wedi dechrau gwaith arno fe? Oes gennych chi unrhyw waith wedi'i gwblhau ar unrhyw ddeddfwriaeth?

Thank you. Thank you very much for your time this morning, Minister. You have been saying that you have been looking at how you develop Welsh education, and you've been talking about the potential for a Welsh education Bill. Have you started working on that? Have you completed any work on any legislation?

Wel, ar hyn o bryd, rŷn ni'n trafod cynnwys y Bil arfaethedig gyda Phlaid Cymru, fel rhan o drafodaethau'r cytundeb cydweithio. Mae gennym ni drafodaeth heddiw am y cynlluniau strategol, wrth gwrs; mae'r rheini wedi cael eu cryfhau ers y tro diwethaf, ond rwy'n credu bod lle i gryfhau hyd yn oed ymhellach yr hyn sydd gennyn ni, fel y fframwaith deddfwriaethol ynghylch addysg Gymraeg. Ac felly, mae cyfle gyda ni yn y Bil, ond, ar hyn o bryd, rŷn ni'n edrych ar fanylion beth fyddwn ni'n bwriadu ymgynghori arno fe.

Well, at present, we're discussing the content of a proposed Bill with Plaid Cymru, as part of the co-operation agreement. We have a discussion today about the WESPs, of course, and those have been strengthened since the last time, but I think there is scope to strengthen even further what we have as a legislative framework in terms of Welsh-medium education. So, we have an opportunity in the Bill to do that, but, at the moment, we're looking at the details of what we're going to consult on.

Diolch am hynny. So, fel Gweinidog, beth yw'ch blaenoriaethau chi mewn unrhyw ddeddfwriaeth? A liciwn ichi fod tipyn bach yn fwy penodol nag oeddech chi yn yr ateb blaenorol, gyda llaw.

Thank you for that. So, as Minister, what are your priorities for any legislation? And I'd like you to be a bit more specific than you were in your previous response, please.

Ie, wrth gwrs. Wel, fel rŷn ni'n gwybod, mae trafodaethau'n digwydd ar hyn o bryd, felly dwi ddim yn mynd i allu bod yn benodol iawn gyda chi ynglŷn â chynnwys y trafodaethau hynny, ond beth rwyf eisiau gweld yw bod pob rhan o'r system addysg yn cyfrannu tuag at ein nod ni o sicrhau bod pobl yn cymryd Cymraeg. Rwyf hefyd eisiau gweld bod seiliau cadarnach gennym ni i'r fframwaith deddfwriaethol nag sydd gennym ni ar hyn o bryd, a'n bod ni hefyd yn darparu cefnogaeth i'r system addysg symud ar hyd y continwwm ieithyddol. Mae gennyn ni gynlluniau anstatudol ar hynny eisoes, ond mae cyfle gennym ni i wneud ychydig yn fwy na hynny. Ond, fel rwy'n dweud, mae'r amryw bethau yna yn cael eu trafod ar hyn o bryd gyda Phlaid Cymru.

Yes, of course. As you know, there are discussions ongoing at present, so I can't be very specific with you in terms of the content of those discussions, but what I want to see is that every part of the education system does contribute towards the aim of ensuring that people increase the use of the Welsh language. We also want to see firmer foundations for the legislative framework than we have at present, and that we are also providing support for the education system to move along the linguistic continuum. We have non-statutory plans on that already, but we have an opportunity to do more than that. But, as I said, a lot of those things are being discussed with Plaid Cymru at the moment.

Dwi'n deall hynny. So, ble mae gwendidau'r system bresennol?

I understand that. So, where are the weaknesses in the current system?

Dwi ddim yn meddwl ei fod e wedi clywed.

I don't think he heard.

Sori, Gweinidog. Ble mae'r gwendidau presennol yn y system?

Sorry, Minister. Where are the current weaknesses in the system?

Wel, dwi'n credu ein bod ni wedi cryfhau lot o'r gwendidau oedd yn y system bresennol. Rŷn ni wedi symud o sefyllfa lle'r oedd yr awdurdodau lleol yn cynnal asesiadau o alw ac wedyn yn ymateb i'r rheini. Rŷn ni wedi symud i system nawr lle mae cynllunio rhagweithiol gyda ni, lle mae cyfnod hirach o gwmpas y cynlluniau. Roedd cyfnod o dair blynedd cyn hynny; fel rŷch chi'n gwybod, mae e nawr yn 10 mlynedd. Mae gennym ni well cydweithio ar lefelau lleol. Hynny yw, mae gweithio gyda phartneriaid yn y fforymau ac eraill i sicrhau ein bod ni'n cyd-ddylunio, bod awdurdodau lleol yn cyd-ddylunio'r cynlluniau gyda'u partneriaid. Felly, dwi'n credu bod lot o'r gwendidau a oedd yn y strwythur cyn hynny wedi cael eu cryfhau.

Mae'r pwyllgor blaenorol wedi gwneud argymhellion. Mae'r rheini wedi cael eu cymryd mewn i ystyriaeth yn y rheoliadau, ond mae cyfle i ni wneud mwy eto. Hynny yw, mae gennym ni gynlluniau nawr sydd, rwy'n credu, yn uchelgeisiol. Yr hyn sydd angen digwydd yw sicrhau eu bod nhw'n gweithredu ar lawr gwlad. Felly, mae'n sicr bod mwy o bethau y gallwn ni eu gwneud i gefnogi awdurdodau i wneud hynny ac i alinio’r hyn sydd yn y WESPs â'r cynlluniau eraill sydd gan y Llywodraeth o ran buddsoddi cyfalaf mewn ysgolion ac ati. Felly, mae mwy i'w wneud, ond mae lot o'r pethau a oedd yn wendidau oedd yn cael eu hawgrymu wedi cael eu hateb, dwi'n credu, yn y ffordd newydd sydd gennym ni o ddarparu'r cynlluniau yma.

Well, I think that we have strengthened a lot of the weaknesses in the current system. We have moved from a situation where local authorities undertook a demand assessment and then responded to those. We've moved to a system now where we have proactive planning, where there is a longer period around the plans. It was previously three years, and, as you know, it's now 10 years. We have better collaboration at local levels. That is, we work with partners in the forums and others to ensure that we co-design, that local authorities are co-designing the WESPs with their partners. So, I think a lot of the weaknesses in the structure previously have been strengthened.

The previous committee provided recommendations, and they've been taken into consideration in the regulations, but there is an opportunity for us to do more again. That is, we have plans that I think are ambitious, and what we need to do is implement them on the ground. So, there's certainly more that we can do to support authorities to do that and to align what's in the WESPs with the other plans that the Government has in terms of capital investment in schools and so forth. So, there is a lot more to do, but a lot of the weaknesses that were highlighted previously have been addressed, I think, in the new way that we have of providing these plans.

10:35

Gweinidog, dwi'n gwybod bod yna fwy i'w wneud, a dyna pam dwi'n gofyn y cwestiwn, ac mi wnes i ofyn ichi: beth oedd gwendidau y system dŷch chi'n trio eu cywiro drwy ddeddfwriaeth? Dŷch chi ddim, o beth dwi wedi'i weld, wedi gallu disgrifio un gwendid yn y system bresennol. So, mi fuasai o help i'r pwyllgor, dwi'n meddwl, pe baech chi'n gallu esbonio a disgrifio ble mae'r gwendidau presennol yn y system.

Minister, I know that there is more to do, and that's why I'm asking the question, and I asked you what the weaknesses were in the system that you are trying to rectify through legislation. And, from what I have seen or heard, you haven't been able to describe any weakness in the current system. So, it would assist the committee, I believe, if you could explain and describe where the current weaknesses are in the system.

Mae e wrth natur y peth mai cynlluniau strategol yw'r rhain, felly dŷn nhw ddim yn gallu gyrru'r holl system—maen nhw'n darparu sail i awdurdodau lleol gynllunio ar gyfer buddsoddiad yn eu hardaloedd nhw. Dyw'r cynlluniau ar eu pennau eu hunain ddim yn ateb y galw ehangach am addysg Gymraeg a'r pethau ymarferol sy'n mynd gyda hynny. Felly, mae limit, wrth gwrs, i'r hyn gall unrhyw gynlluniau strategol eu gwneud. Ond, maen nhw'n gwneud gwaith pwysig ac maen nhw wedi symud ymlaen llawer iawn o'r fersiwn oedd gyda ni cyn hynny.

Well, by nature, these are strategic plans, so they can't drive the whole system—they provide a foundation for local authorities to plan for investing in their areas. The WEPSs themselves don't meet the broader demand for Welsh-medium education and the practical elements involved in that. So, there is a limit to what any strategic plans can do. But, they do important work and they have moved on from the previous version.

Pan dŷn ni'n edrych ar y Record, mi fydd y Record yn dangos eich bod chi heb ddisgrifio un gwendid i'r system bresennol, a dwi'n credu, i fi, mae hynny yn achosi problem, achos pan dŷch chi'n deddfu i ddatrys problemau, mae'n rhaid i chi ddeall beth ydy'r problemau a ble mae'r gwendidau a pham rydych chi'n deddfu. Ac, wrth wrando ar eich atebion, dwi ddim yn gwybod yr ateb i hynny eto. Dŷn ni i gyd yn gallu trafod pwysigrwydd cynllunio—mae hynny'n fine—ond dyw e ddim yn ateb y cwestiynau dwi wedi bod yn eu gofyn. Ond gaf i symud ymlaen tipyn bach ac efallai trio eich helpu chi? Dŷch chi wedi sôn am gynllunio a chydlynu. Ydych chi'n meddwl bod yna ddigon o gydlynu’n digwydd rhwng awdurdodau?

When we look at the Record, the Record will show that you haven't described a single weakness in the current system, and I think, to me, that causes a problem, because when you legislate to solve issues, you have to understand what the issues and problems and weaknesses are that have required legislation. And, in listening to your responses, I don't know the answer to that yet. We can all discuss the importance of planning—that's fine—but it doesn't answer the questions that I have been asking. But may I move forward a little and perhaps try to help you? You have spoken about planning and alignment. Do you think that there is sufficient alignment and co-ordination happening between authorities?

Awdurdodau lleol. Cynghorau.

Between local authorities. Councils.

Cydweithio rhwng awdurdodau lleol dŷch chi'n ei feddwl?

Collaboration between local authorities—is that what you mean?

Wel, rwy'n credu bod mwy o le i wneud hynny. Chi'n gwybod, rŷn ni'n gweld heriau yn codi ble mae cynlluniau un awdurdod, efallai, ddim yn edrych ar y cyd-destun ehangach. Felly, rŷn ni'n gweld mewn amryw o enghreifftiau bod polisïau trafnidiaeth, er enghraifft, awdurdodau lleol mewn un man yn gallu creu unintended consequences, os hoffwch chi, mewn awdurdodau cyfagos. Hynny yw, fel rŷch chi'n gwybod, mae'r Learner Travel Measure (Wales) 2008 yn gofyn i awdurdodau lleol wneud darpariaeth benodol. Mae rhai wedi newid eu polisïau trafnidiaeth mewn ffordd sydd efallai ddim yn cefnogi’r darlun rhanbarthol o ran addysg, os hoffwch chi, er eu bod nhw, efallai, yn cefnogi'r cynlluniau lleol sydd ganddyn nhw. Felly, mae hynny yn un elfen, rwy'n credu, sydd yn gallu bod yn heriol. Dwi wedi bod yn trafod gyda phob arweinydd a phob cyfarwyddwr addysg—dwi wrthi ar hyn o bryd yn mynd drwy hynny—i sicrhau ein bod ni'n gallu dod o hyd i ble mae'r issues yna yn codi. Ac mae'n amlwg bod hynny'n digwydd mewn mwy nag un awdurdod lleol, felly dwi'n trafod hynny ar hyn o bryd gyda chynghorau.

Beth sydd ddim yn bosib gwneud efallai gyda'r manylder yr hoffwn i yn y cynlluniau presennol yw'r elfen ddaearyddol honno. Dwi wedi sôn mewn cyd-destunau eraill bod y rhifau'n bwysig, hynny yw, ein bod ni'n cyrraedd y nod o bobl yn cael addysg Gymraeg, ond hefyd, bod yr elfen ddaearyddol yn bwysig i hynny. Hynny yw, dosbarthiad ysgolion; lle mae nhw'n cael eu hadeiladu, lle mae nhw'n cael eu hagor, a dyw'r elfen honno efallai ddim—. Dyw'r system sydd gennym ni ar hyn o bryd ddim yn galluogi manylu gymaint, efallai, ag yr hoffen ni, yn hynny o beth.

Well, I think there is more scope to do that. We are seeing challenges arising where the plans of one authority, perhaps, don't look at the broader context. So, we see in some examples that transport policies, for example, in one local authority can create unintended consequences, if you like, in neighbouring authorities. That is, as you know, the Learner Travel Measure (Wales) 2008 requires local authorities to make specific provision. Some have changed their transport policies so they perhaps don't support the regional picture in terms of education, if you like, even though they do support the local plans that they have. So, that's one element, perhaps, that can be challenging. I've been discussing with every leader and every director of education—and we're going through that process at the moment—to ensure that we can find out where these issues are arising. And, evidently, that's happening in more than one local authority, so we're discussing that at present with councils.

What's not possible, in the detail that we'd like, under the current plans, is that geographical element. I've mentioned in other contexts that the numbers are important, and that we do want to reach the aim of people having Welsh-medium education, but also that the geographical element is important to that. That is, the distribution of schools; where they're built and where they're opened, and that element perhaps—. The system that we have at present doesn't enable us to have as much as detail as we'd like in that sense. 

10:40

Diolch ichi am hynny. Ydy'r system bresennol yn ddigonol i alluogi awdurdodau unigol, ac awdurdodau sy'n cydweithio, i gynllunio addysg trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, o'r feithrinfa i addysg ar ôl 16?

Thank you for that response. Is the current system adequate to enable individual local authorities and collaborating authorities to plan Welsh-medium education, from nursery phase to post-16 education?

Wel, am y tro cyntaf, mae gennym ni ofyniad yn y cynlluniau sydd gennym ni nawr i edrych o'r blynyddoedd cynnar trwodd i flynyddoedd hwyr. Rŷn ni'n gwybod bod y blynyddoedd cynnar yn bwysig tu hwnt. Mae'r trosglwyddiad rŷn ni'n ei gael o addysg blynyddoedd cynnar i addysg statudol yn uchel iawn pan rŷch chi'n gweld hynny yn digwydd. Felly, mae hynny yn elfen o'r system newydd bod yn rhaid datgan cynlluniau targedau'r blynyddoedd cynnar hefyd.

Rwy'n credu bod beth rŷch chi'n ei ddweud amboutu ôl-16 yn bwysig iawn. Fel rŷch chi'n gwybod, mae deddfwriaeth arall gyda ni ar hyn o bryd a hynny i sicrhau ein bod ni'n cynyddu'r ddarpariaeth ôl-16, oherwydd mae hynny'n wannach nag ydyn ni eisiau ei weld; rŷn ni'n gwybod hynny. Mae'r comisiwn newydd â dyletswyddau penodol i sicrhau ein bod ni'n cynyddu'r rhifau, ac mae cwmpas chweched dosbarth o fewn cwmpas y comisiwn newydd yn mynd i ganiatáu i'r cydlynu hynny ddigwydd mewn ffordd well. Felly, mae'r gymysgedd o newidiadau sy'n digwydd yn y WESPs a'r digwyddiadau deddfwriaethol sy'n digwydd gyda'r comisiwn, rwy'n credu, yn symud pethau ymlaen. Ac rŷn ni wedi gweld llwyddiant o ran agor cylchoedd meithrin, a lle mae hynny yn digwydd, rŷn ni'n gweld y cynnydd yn dod drwy'r blynyddoedd cynnar hefyd yn yr awdurdodau hynny. 

Well, for the first time, we have a requirement in the plans that we have to look at the early years through to the later years. And we know that the early years are very important. The transfer that we have from early years education to statutory education is very high when you see that happening. So, that's an element of the new system that you have to state targets for the early years as well.

I think that what you said about post-16 is very important. As you know, we have other legislation to ensure that we increase post-16 provision, because that is weaker than what we want to see; we know that. The new commission has specific duties to ensure that they do increase numbers, and the scope of the sixth forms within the new commission's scope is going to allow that co-ordination to happen in a better way. So, there is a mixture of changes happening in the WESPs and the legislative amendments that are happening with the commission. I think that does move things forward. And we have seen success in terms of opening the cylchoedd meithrin, and when that happens, we do see progress made in the early years in those local authorities. 

Diolch am hynny. Ydych chi wedi ystyried cael yr hawl i symud cyfrifoldeb am ddarparu addysg Gymraeg o'r awdurdodau lleol unigol i, dywedwch, y consortia sydd yn bodoli?

Thank you for that. Have you considered having the right to move responsibility for the provision of Welsh-medium education from individual local authorities to, say, the consortia that exist?

Dwi ddim wedi edrych ar hynny. Rwy'n credu ei bod hi'n bwysig bod perchnogaeth leol gyda ni o ran y gallu i ddarparu addysg. Mae'r gallu i ddarparu addysg, a chael y pwerau a'r dyletswydd i ddarparu yn digwydd ar lefel leol. Dwi ddim yn gweld achos i wneud rhywbeth gwahanol o safbwynt addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg. Mae'r pwerau, mae'r gallu, mae'r adnoddau, mae'r strwythurau i gyd gyda chynghorau lleol nid gyda'r consortia. 

I haven't looked at that, but I think it's important that we have local ownership in terms of the ability to provide education. The ability to provide education and have the powers and duties to provide happens at a local level. I don't see a case for doing something different in terms of Welsh-medium education. The powers, the ability, the resources and the structures are all with the local authorities, not the consortia.

Diolch am hynny. Ydych chi wedi ystyried impact austerity ar y cynlluniau presennol?

Thank you for that. Have you considered the impact of austerity on the current plans?

Ydyn, rŷn ni yn edrych ar hynny'n gyson. Rŷn ni wedi gallu buddsoddi, fel rŷch chi'n gwybod, y tu allan i gynllun cyfalaf cymunedau addysg gynaliadwy. Y tu allan i hynny, rŷn ni hefyd yn darparu cyllideb benodol ar gyfer addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg. Ond mae'n gwbl glir, oherwydd impact costau byw a chwyddiant ac ati, bod llai o ysgolion y gellir eu hadeiladu yn gyffredinol—nid cyfrwng Cymraeg yn unig—yn mynd i fod yn ganlyniad i hynny, drwy'r raglen gyfalaf, oherwydd costau chwyddiant. Rŷn ni'n edrych ar hynny yn gyson. 

Rwy wedi hefyd diwygio'r ffordd rŷn ni'n edrych ar y cynllun buddsoddi yn gyffredinol. Fel rŷch chi'n gwybod, rŷn ni wedi symud nawr o'r bandiau oedd gyda ni, oedd yn eithaf rigid, oedd, efallai, yn creu anawsterau cynllunio, er mwyn alinio hynny gyda'r cynlluniau strategol 10 mlynedd. Mae bwriad nawr i awdurdodau lleol gynnig cynlluniau hirdymor i ni, dros gyfnod o naw mlynedd, fydd yn lot fwy hyblyg, fel ein bod ni'n gallu ymateb i'r galw, a lle mae rhai awdurdodau yn barod i symud yn gynt, ein bod ni'n gallu eu cefnogi nhw i wneud hynny drwy system buddsoddi cyfalaf sydd yn llai biwrocrataidd, os hoffwch chi, ac yn fwy responsive hefyd.

Yes, we are looking at that consistently. We have been able to invest, as you know, outside the capital plans for the sustainable communities for learning scheme. And, outside that, we're providing a specific budget for Welsh-medium education. But it's very clear, because of the impact of the cost-of-living crisis and inflation and so forth, that there are fewer schools that can be built generally—not only Welsh-medium schools—as a result of that, through the capital programme, because of inflation costs. We look at that consistently. 

But I've also changed the way that we look at the investment scheme generally. As you know, we've moved now from the bands that we had that were quite rigid, and that created difficulties in terms of planning, in order to align that with the 10-year strategic plans. And we have an intention now for local authorities to present us with long-term plans, over a nine-year period, that will be much more flexible, so that we can respond to demand, and where some authorities are ready to move more quickly, that we can support them to do that through a capital investment system that is less bureaucratic, if you like, and more responsive as well.

10:45

Diolch am hynny, Weinidog. Fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Heledd Fychan.

Thank you for that, Minister. We'll move on to Heledd Fychan.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Gadeirydd, a bore da, Weinidog. Diolch am ymuno â ni heddiw. Roeddwn i jest eisiau mynd yn ôl; dŷch chi wedi defnyddio'r gair yn ymateb i Alun Davies rŵan o ran 'uchelgais' eto. Dŷch chi wedi dweud, amryw o droeon, bod y cynlluniau mor uchelgeisiol ag y gallant fod. Ydych chi'n meddwl bod hynny hefyd yn wir o ran nid yn unig y cynlluniau i agor ysgolion Cymraeg newydd ac ati, ond o ran yr ysgolion Saesneg ar hyn o bryd a'u symud nhw ar hyd y continwwm iaith?

Thank you, Chair, and good morning, Minister. Thank you for joining us today. I just wanted to go back; you used the word in response to Alun Davies in terms of 'ambition'. You have said previously that the plans are as ambitious as they can be. Do you think that that's true also, in terms of not only the plans to open new Welsh-medium schools, but in terms of the English-medium schools and moving them along the language continuum?

Ydw, rwy yn. Mae rhyw wyth awdurdod, o gof, yn bwriadu symud ysgolion ar hyd y continwwm. Mae wyth sir yn ymrwymo i wneud hynny. Dwi ddim yn credu bod hynny'n digwydd ar chwarae bach. Fel rŷch chi'n gwybod, mae lot o baratoi a chynllunio yn mynd i mewn i allu gwneud hynny, ac mae'r scale rŷn ni'n edrych arno fo yng Nghymru, fuaswn i'n dweud does dim cymhariaeth ryngwladol i hynny hyd yn oed, a byddwn i'n cynnwys Gwlad y Basg yn hynny am resymau penodol. Felly, rwy'n credu bod yr uchelgais yn hynny yn sylweddol hefyd.

Mae'r mix yn wahanol, onid yw e, ym mhob awdurdod, felly mae pob awdurdod yn cychwyn o man gwahanol. Felly, byddwn i ddim yn disgwyl gweld bod pob sir yn cael yr un nod o ran symud ysgolion ar hyd y continwwm. Mae'n dibynnu beth yw'r mix presennol. Ond mae gwaith yn digwydd ar hyn o bryd rhwng swyddogion ac awdurdodau i fapio sut y gall hynny ddigwydd. Cam cyntaf yw hwn. Mae'n mynd i gymryd sbel i wreiddio hynny, rwy'n credu, ond fel rhan o'r mix rwy'n credu bod y lefel o uchelgais sydd gennym ni ar hyn o bryd yn ddigonol.

Yes, I do. There are around eight authorities that intend to move schools along the continuum. Eight counties are committed to doing that. I don't think that that's child's play, is it? As you know, there is a great deal of preparation that goes into doing that, and at the scale that we're looking at in Wales, there is no international comparator for that, I don't think, and I would include the Basque Country in that, for specific reasons. So, I think that the ambition in that sense is significant.

The mix is different, isn't in, in every local authority, so the starting point for every authority is different. So, I wouldn't expect to see that every authority has the same objective in terms of moving schools along the continuum. It depends what the current mix is. But work is currently ongoing between officials and authorities to map how that can happen. This is a first step. It's going to take a long time for that to bed in, I think, but as part of the mix I think that the level of ambition that we currently have is sufficient.

Yn sicr, dŷch chi'n iawn o ran nodi bod pob awdurdod lleol yn dechrau o bwynt gwahanol o ran amrywiaethau, ond o edrych ar y CSCAau newydd, mae yna dal, yn fy marn i, amrywiadau o ran yr ansawdd ac uchelgais mewn rai awdurdodau, er bod yna shift wedi bod. Beth mwy ydych chi'n gallu gwneud fel Llywodraeth, heb fod y Ddeddf yn ei lle eto, o ran symud yr agenda ymlaen ymysg yr awdurdodau lleol yna sydd efallai ddim wedi ymafael â'r her gymaint ag efallai y gallen nhw fod, o ran cefnogaeth a chymhelliant ac ati?

Certainly, you're right in terms of noting that every local authority starts from a different place in terms of the variation, but in looking at the new WESPs, in my opinion, there are still variations in terms of the quality and ambition in some authorities, although there has been a shift. What more could you do as a Government, without the Act being in place yet, in terms of moving the agenda forward among those local authorities that haven't really grasped the challenge as they might have, in terms of support and incentives and so forth?

Ar y pwynt yna o uchelgais, rwy ddim yn derbyn y pwynt rŷch chi'n ei wneud, mae'n rhaid i mi ddweud. Rŷn ni'n dechrau o mannau gwahanol, fel rwy'n dweud, gyda phob awdurdod lleol. Mae'r amgylchiadau lleol yn wahanol. Beth sydd wedi digwydd y tro yma am y tro cyntaf erioed, yn cynnwys yn y cynlluniau drafft—. Ac efallai roedd rhai o'r tystion rŷch chi wedi eu cael yn edrych ar y cynlluniau drafft, oherwydd dyna oedd ar gael ar y pryd, yn hytrach na'r cynlluniau sydd wedi eu diwygio. Beth rŷn ni wedi gweld oedd, ym mis Ionawr, ges i gynlluniau wedi eu cyflwyno i fi a oedd yn derbyn, os hoffech chi, y nod yr oeddem ni fel Llywodraeth wedi'i roi i'r awdurdodau hynny o ran darpariaeth. Mae'n bwysig dweud bod hynny yn gam enfawr ymlaen; dyw hynny ddim wedi digwydd yn y gorffennol. Felly, roedd pob awdurdod yn derbyn lefel yr her, os hoffech chi, roeddwn ni wedi ei rhoi iddyn nhw. Wrth gwrs, mae'r cynlluniau wedi cryfhau yn y cyfamser, i'r rhai sydd wedi cael eu cyhoeddi eisoes, ond mae hynny'n werth ystyried, dywedwn i.

O ran y gefnogaeth dŷn ni wedi'i rhoi, ynghyd â'r rheoliadau newydd, mae canllawiau statudol a chanllawiau cynllunio anstatudol ar ben hynny, a thempled hefyd, fel bod pobl yn gallu datblygu'u CSCAau mewn ffordd sydd yn gyson ac sydd yn caniatáu monitro, os hoffwch chi. Roedd proffil data wedi'i greu am y tro cyntaf ar gyfer pob un sir, fel bod sail, os hoffwch chi, o ddata o dan y cynllunio ieithyddol sy'n gorfod digwydd. Felly, mae amryw o ffyrdd mae'r Llywodraeth eisoes wedi cefnogi awdurdodau, ond mae mwy i'w wneud. Gwnes i sôn yn gynharach am y gyllideb benodol sydd gennym ni ar gyfer cyfalaf—cyllideb cyfalaf ar gyfer ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg—ond ar ben hynny, mae buddsoddiad mewn trochi, er enghraifft. Mae hwnna wedi cael ei ddyrannu i bob awdurdod yng Nghymru mewn ffyrdd gwahanol—eto, mae pob un mewn man gwahanol ar ei siwrne. Felly, mae amryw ffyrdd o ran cefnogaeth ymarferol, cefnogaeth cynllunio a hefyd cefnogaeth ariannol sy'n mynd i gynorthwyo awdurdodau a'u tywys nhw ar hyd y llwybr yna. 

On that point of ambition, I don't accept the point that you make, I have to say. We are starting from different points, as I said, with regard to every local authority. The local circumstances are different. What's happened this time for the first time ever, including in the draft plans—. And perhaps some of the witnesses that you've had have been looking at the draft plans rather than the reformed and amended plans, just because that's what was available at the time. What we saw in January was that plans were submitted to me that accepted, if you will, the aim that we as a Government had given those authorities in terms of provision. It's important to say that that is a major step forward; that hadn't happened in the past. So, every local authority accepted the level of challenge, if you will, that we had set for them. Of course, the plans have been strengthened in the meantime, as compared to those previously published, and that's worth considering too.

In terms of the support that we've given, alongside the new guidance, there is statutory guidance and non-statutory planning guidance as well, and a template, so that people can develop those WESPs in a consistent manner and in a way that enables monitoring, if you will. A data profile was created for the first time for every county, so that there is a basis of data, if you will, underlying the language planning that has to take place. So, there are a number of ways that the Government has already supported authorities, but there is more to do. We have plans for capital funding for Welsh-medium schools, but on top of that, we've got the investment in immersion, for example. That's been allocated to every authority in Wales in different ways, because everyone is in a different position on their journey. So, there is practical support, there is planning support and also financial support that is going to assist local authorities to guide them along the route as well. 

10:50

Yn sicr. Mi wnaeth Alun Davies grybwyll ynglŷn â rhai o'r heriau, a chithau, Weinidog, efo'r argyfwng costau byw, er enghraifft, a'r effaith efallai efo polisïau trafnidiaeth, ac ati. Un o'r pethau efallai nad oes gennym ni ddarlun llawn ohono fo eto ydy effaith COVID o ran addysg Gymraeg. O ran, felly, y cynlluniau hynny, efallai bod y goalposts—sori, Cymraeg erchyll—wedi newid rhywfaint o ran beth ydy'r ffigurau sydd gan rai awdurdodau lleol a deall pam efallai bod pobl wedi gadael addysg Gymraeg, os ydy hynny'n wir, yn ystod COVID. Faint o ystyriaeth a thrafod sydd wedi bod o ran hynny wrth i'r darlun ddod yn gliriach?

Certainly. Alun Davies mentioned some of the challenges, and you mentioned them as well, in terms of the challenges with the cost of living and the impact in terms of transport policy. One of the things that we may not have a full picture of yet is the impact of COVID on Welsh-medium education. In terms of those plans, maybe the goalposts—sorry, that's very poor Welsh—have shifted somewhat in terms of the figures that some local authorities have and understanding why people are leaving Welsh-medium education, if that's true, during COVID. What kind of consideration and discussion has taken place on that as the picture becomes clearer?

Wel, mae cwestiynau ymarferol yn ymwneud â sut rŷch chi'n casglu data am y rhesymau y mae pobl yn gadael ysgol, ac mae rhwystredigaethau o ran yr hyn y gellir ei wneud yn hynny o beth. Ond, efallai gwnaf i ofyn i Bethan i fanylu ar rai o'r ystyriaethau hynny, os caf i.

Well, there are practical questions with regard to how you gather data about the reasons why people leave schools, and there are frustrations in what can be done in that regard. But, perhaps I will ask Bethan to detail some of the considerations in that regard.

Ie, siŵr. Bethan, bydd angen ichi ddadfiwtio'ch hunan, os yw hynny'n ocê, achos dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni'n defnyddio Zoom, ond y fersiwn newydd. Felly, a allwch chi ddadfiwtio'ch hunan, plis? 

Bethan, I'm afraid you'll have to unmute yourself, if that's okay, because I think we're using a newer version of Zoom. So, if you could unmute yourself, please.

Ie, rydyn ni wedi dadansoddi'r data mynediad, ac yn y blaen, a lle mae colledion wedi bod yn ystod COVID. Roedd yna dair sir, o gof, wedi dioddef mwy o golledion nac eraill. O edrych i mewn, mae'n gallu bod yn amrywiaeth o bethau. Weithiau mae hi jest yn arweinyddiaeth yr ysgol, weithiau mae hi jest yn siarad ymysg rhieni. Ond, o'r data PLASC diweddar rydyn ni wedi edrych arno ym mis Medi, mae pethau wedi dechrau dod yn ôl i fwcl ac mae gwaith da mae'r ysgolion wedi ei wneud, ac mae yna arfer da hefyd wedi dod allan o COVID. Felly, rydyn ni nôl lle ddylen ni wedi bod. Felly, dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi tua 24 y cant, bron iawn, onid ydy, o blant 5 oed, ym mlwyddyn 1. Felly, rydyn ni'n edrych ar ddata blynyddoedd cynnar, ac mae hwnna i weld yn iach, felly mae'r twf yn dechrau dod nôl drwy'r system.

Rydyn ni hefyd, wrth gwrs, yn cael cyfarfodydd parhaus efo Estyn i sicrhau ac i wirio beth ydy'r heriau i'r gwahanol ysgolion. Ac, wrth gwrs, mae'r arian ychwanegol rydyn ni wedi ei fuddsoddi yn y canolfannau hwyr-ddyfodiaid ac mewn trochi a throchi hwyr, mae'r canolfannau hynny hefyd, yn enwedig yn y dwyrain, yn gallu helpu a hybu sgiliau a rhoi hwb a chefnogaeth ychwanegol i'r disgyblion hynny sydd ei angen. 

Yes, we have analysed the access data, and so forth, and where there have been losses during COVID. There were three counties, as I remember it, that suffered more losses than others. In looking at that, it can be a variety of things. Sometimes it's school leadership and sometimes it's just chatter among parents. But, in terms of the latest PLASC data we looked at in September, things have started to stabilise again and there's good work that the schools have done, and there has been good practice that has emanated from COVID. So, we're back where we should have been. So, it's about 24 per cent, isn't it, I think, of five-year-olds in year 1. So, we are looking at early years data, and that seems to be healthy. So, the growth is starting to emerge through the system.

And, of course, we are having ongoing meetings with Estyn to check what the challenges are for the different schools, and, of course, the additional funding that we have invested in the latecomers' centres and in late immersion, those centres, particularly in east Wales, can promote skills and can give an additional boost and support to those pupils who need it. 

Bethan, efallai roedd Heledd yn mynd i ofyn hyn hefyd, ond os byddech chi'n gallu danfon y data PLASC yna atom ni, buasem ni'n ddiolchgar. 

I think Heledd was going to ask this as well, but could you send those PLASC data to us, please? We'd be very grateful. 

Wrth gwrs.

Of course.

Gwnaf i ddod yn ôl at Heledd. 

I'll go back to Heledd. 

Roeddwn i jest eisiau gofyn o ran y data: oes yna, felly, fwy o gasglu data a chysondeb o ran pam bod disgyblion efallai yn gadael addysg Gymraeg ar ba bynnag pwynt? Oherwydd, un o'r heriau sydd wedi bod pan dwi wedi craffu ar hyn yn y gorffennol yw bod—[Anghlywadwy.]—cysondeb o ran gofyn pam bod yna newid neu gasglu'r data yna, a'i gymryd yn ganiataol, efallai, ei fod o oherwydd bod teulu wedi symud i ardal arall, ond dim y sicrwydd hynny a'i bod o i fyny i brif athrawon wybod ond ddim yn gwybod lle i fwydo'r wybodaeth yna nôl. Ydy o'n rhywbeth mae gennym ni ddealltwriaeth ohono er mwyn deall wedyn pwysigrwydd y buddsoddiad mewn trochi ac ati, os ydy hynny'n gallu gwneud gwahaniaeth a chodi hyder teulu neu ddisgybl o ran yr iaith?

I just wanted to ask in terms of data: is there more data gathering and consistency in terms of why pupils are leaving Welsh-medium education at whatever point? Because, one of the challenges that has emerged when I've scrutinised this issue in the past is that there has been a lack of consistency in terms of asking why there have been changes in the data gathering and taking for granted that, perhaps, families have moved to other areas but not that assurance or certainty, and that it's up to headteachers to know where to feed that information in. Do we have that understanding in order to understand the importance of the investment in immersion and whether it's an issue in terms of that being able to make a difference and raise confidence among families and pupils in terms of the language?

Ydyn, yn sicr, rydyn ni'n cael y trafodaethau yna, ond fel mae'r Gweinidog eisoes wedi ei ddweud, mae sefyllfa pob awdurdod lleol yn wahanol ac er bod yna efallai rhyw bump i 10 o resymau pam mae pobl yn gadael, mae'r rhesymau yna yn amrywio o gymuned i gymuned ac o awdurdod lleol i awdurdod lleol. Ac felly, pan rydyn ni'n gweld patrymau tebyg, fedrwn ni fel swyddogion efeillio rhai awdurdodau lleol ac yn y blaen a gweld sut rydyn ni'n mynd i'r afael â rhai o'r pethau. Ond, beth rydyn ni ei hangen ydy sgyrsiau parhaus. Ac wrth gwrs, mae'r fforymau addysg hefyd ar gael i amlygu rhai o'r pethau yma.

Yes, certainly, we do have those discussions, but as the Minister has already said, the situation of each local authority is different and although there are around five to 10 reasons why people do leave, those reasons do vary from community to community and from local authority to local authority. So, when we see similar patterns emerging, we as officials can twin some local authorities, and so on, and see how we can tackle some of those issues. But what we need are ongoing conversations. And of course, the education fora are also available to highlight some of these things. 

10:55

Wedyn, mae'r data yna yn cael ei gasglu rŵan o ran bob disgybl—rydyn ni yn casglu'r data yna, ydyn ni?

So, that data is being gathered now in terms of every pupil—we are collecting that data, are we?

Wel, mae data PLASC, onid ydy, fesul disgybl, felly rydyn ni'n gwybod—rydyn ni'n edrych ar ddilyniant rhwng cyfnodau addysg ac yn y blaen.

Well, the PLASC data are available for each student, so, we know—we are looking at continuity between education phases and so on.

Ocê? Iawn, grêt. Fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Carolyn Thomas.

Okay? Great. We'll move on now to Carolyn Thomas.

So, to what extent are you confident that the political will matches Welsh Government's ambitions for the Welsh language across all local authorities in Wales and the role of the Welsh Government in driving that agenda forward?

Wel, mae hwnnw'n gwestiwn teg, rwy'n credu. Fel roeddwn yn ei ddweud yn gynharach, mae pob un awdurdod wedi derbyn yr her, os hoffech chi, ac, o ran y ranges, mae'r ystod o gynnydd yn uchelgeisiol. Felly, mae hynny'n arwydd da, rwy'n credu, o ymrwymiad yn gyffredinol, ac mae hynny'n wir am bob un awdurdod. Ond beth rwy wedi bod yn ei wneud am y tro cyntaf, rili, yw cynnal cyfarfodydd gwleidyddol gydag arweinwyr ym mhob sir. Wrth gwrs, dŷn ni ddim wedi cwblhau hynny eto—rŷn ni'n mynd trwy'r rhestr, os hoffech chi, ar hyn o bryd. A beth mae hynny’n ei olygu, gydag arweinwyr cynghorau a chyfarwyddwyr addysg, yw ei fod yn rhoi cyfle i mi ail-bwysleisio fy nisgwyliadau i o ran y cynlluniau. Does gyda fi, ar hyn o bryd, dim unrhyw reswm i feddwl na fydd awdurdodau yn ymateb yn gadarnhaol i'r pethau y maen nhw wedi cytuno i'w wneud yn y cynlluniau. Maen nhw'n gynlluniau 10 mlynedd, wrth gwrs, am y tro cyntaf, felly, yn sicr, bydd pethau’n digwydd yn y cyfamser sydd yn mynd i fod yn newid y cyd-destun efallai ac yn gwneud pethau'n heriol. Fel rŷch chi'n gwybod, rwy’n monitro’r rhain yn gyson ac yn gofyn am adroddiad blynyddol ar gynnydd, felly mae cyfleoedd yn sgil hynny i allu cadw sicrhau bod yr uchelgais a’r ymrwymiad gwleidyddol yn eu lle a’n bod yn cynnal y momentwm, os hoffech chi, sydd gyda ni ar hyn o bryd.

Well, that's a fair question, I think. As I said previously, every authority has accepted the challenge, if you like, and in terms of the ranges of progress, they're ambitious. So, I think that's a good sign of commitment generally, and I think that's true of every authority. But what I have been doing for the first time is having political meetings with leaders in every county. We haven't finished those yet—we're going through that now; we're going through the list, if you like, at the moment. And what that means, with council leaders and directors of education, is that it gives me an opportunity to re-emphasise my expectations in terms of the WESPs. At present, I don't have any reason to think that local authorities won't respond positively to the things that they've agreed to do in the WESPs. They're 10-year plans, of course, for the first time, so, certainly, things will happen in the meantime that will change the context and will bring challenges. But, as you know, I monitor those consistently and I request an annual progress report, so there are opportunities in the wake of that to be able to ensure that the ambition and the political commitment are in place and that we maintain the momentum, if you like, that we have at present.

Iawn? Ocê, grêt. Fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen. Diolch, Weinidog. Fe wnawn ni symud at Tom Giffard.

Okay? Great, we'll move on. Thank you, Minister. We'll move on to Tom Giffard.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Bore da, Gweinidog.

Thank you, Chair. Good morning, Minister.

Pan oedden ni'n gofyn am dystiolaeth, fe wnaeth Dyfodol i'r Iaith dod i mewn a dywedon nhw eu bod nhw yn moyn gweld, yn y system, cycle 10 mlynedd y WESP, targedau a mwy o fonitro yn y tymor byr, y tymor canolig a'r tymor hir hefyd. Pa asesiad ŷch chi wedi’i wneud o hwnna, ac a ydych chi'n meddwl bod y WESPs, yn y cycle 10 mlynedd, yn gwneud beth rŷch chi'n moyn iddyn nhw ei wneud?

When we asked for evidence, Dyfodol i'r Iaith came in and they said that they wanted to see, in the 10-year WESP cycle, targeting and monitoring in the short, medium and long term as well. What assessment have you made of that, and do you think that the WESPs, in the 10-year cycle, are going to do what you want them to do?

Ydw, dwi'n credu eu bod nhw. Fel rwy'n ei ddweud, mae monitro blynyddol yn digwydd ar sail yr adroddiadau cynnydd wrth awdurdodau. Felly, byddwn ni'n cadw llygad manwl ar hynny i sicrhau bod cynnydd yn digwydd. Felly, mae hynny'n rhywbeth blynyddol. Mae cyfle hefyd ail edrych ar y planiau, os nad yw pethau ar drac, os hoffech chi—i greu cynllun strategol newydd, os nad yw'r un presennol yn ddigonol. Ond hefyd, fel rŷch chi'n gwybod, mae awdurdodau ar hyn o bryd yn paratoi cynlluniau gweithredu pum mlynedd am yr hanner cyntaf o'r cynllun, a fydd yn cael eu cyflwyno, gobeithio, cyn diwedd y flwyddyn, ac mae hynny hefyd yn rhoi mwy o gig ar yr asgwrn wedyn ynglŷn â manylder beth sy'n cael ei ddarparu o fewn y cynllun ehangach sydd gyda ni. Felly, rwy’n credu bod y balans hwnnw yn un pwysig.

Ond hefyd, un o'r pethau rwyf wedi bod yn ei drafod gydag arweinwyr yw bod y cynlluniau strategol yn un o’r fframweithiau polisi sy'n ganolog i addysg ym mhob sir—hynny yw, bod edrych ar hwnnw yn gyfystyr â chynlluniau'r awdurdod, er enghraifft, i fuddsoddi'n ehangach yn yr ystâd addysg. A byddaf eisiau gweld cynnydd yn y WESPs yn digwydd fel rhan o'r broses o edrych ar fuddsoddiad cyfalaf ehangach ym mhob sir hefyd.

Yes, I think they do. As I said, annual monitoring does take place on the basis of the progress reports that will be published by local authorities. I'll be keeping a weather eye on those to ensure that progress is taking place. So, that happens on an annual basis. There's also an opportunity to look again at the plans if things aren't on track—to formulate a new strategic plan, if the current plan isn't adequate. But also, as you'll know, local authorities are preparing their five-year operational plans for the first half of the plans, which will hopefully be submitted before the end of the year, and that also puts more meat on the bone in terms of the detail of what will be provided within the wider plan that we have. So, I think that balance is a very important one to strike.

But also, one of the issues that I have been discussing with leaders is that the strategic plans are one of the policy frameworks that are central to education policy in every county, and that we need to look at that at the same level as local authority plans for wider investment in the education estate. And I will want to see progress with regard to the WESPs happening as part of the process of looking at wider capital investment in every county.

Diolch. I'll ask the second one in English, so that I get it right.

Thank you. You mentioned there about the strategic overview, if you like, as you see your role. Where do you see the role for—? Where do you put your threshold for intervention if you feel a WESP isn't hitting the targets that perhaps they've set out, and what kind of intervention measures would you consider that you have in your suite to intervene where required?

11:00

So, the current underpinning for the WESPs doesn't provide direction powers for Ministers. So, I was talking at the start of the discussion with Alun Davies about the sorts of things that might appear in a new Bill, and strengthening the statutory underpinning for how authorities comply with the WESPs is one of those that I mentioned then. But there are a number of other things. I've already said to authorities, for example, that I would expect to see progress on the WESPs happening in real time as I'm looking at broader—. When proposals are coming to me under the broader capital investment programme, I want to know that progress is happening at the same pace in relation to the WESPs as part of the decision making about how that money is spent.

But, as I say, there are also mechanisms for introducing a new WESP if there isn't sufficient progress on a year-on-year basis. That's one that authorities themselves need to bring forward, but there will be joint working between officials and with local government officials to make sure that happens. But I think one of the key levers that we have is that we have to make sure that consistency and alignment happens between the various levers that we have to support education for local government, and I've been very clear about that to authorities.

Just quickly, Tom, may I interrupt quickly? Can I check, Minister: the five-year action plan that you've mentioned, does that have a statutory footing, or would it be more coming under guidance?

I think it's statutory guidance, but I'll ask Bethan to remind me, if I may.

Siwan will answer this question.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Na, dyw'r cynllun gweithredu pum mlynedd ddim yn statudol. Mae hwn yn broses sydd wedi cael ei gyflwyno er mwyn rhoi mwy o gig ar yr asgwrn, fel mae'r Gweinidog eisoes wedi'i ddweud, ar y cynlluniau 10 mlynedd, ac i roi sicrwydd i'r Gweinidog ac i swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru fod y blaenoriaethu yna yn digwydd, a bod y gweithredu yna yn digwydd o flwyddyn i flwyddyn. Felly, mae hwn yn fwy o broses fewnol i'r awdurdodau lleol, ond i'w wneud mewn cydweithrediad llwyr gyda'i fforymau addysg hefyd. Hynny yw, y disgwyliad yw bod y cynlluniau gweithredu yn cael eu cyd-gynllunio gyda'u fforymau addysg, ac yn amlwg eu cyflwyno gerbron eu cabinet i gael cymeradwyaeth cyn cyflwyno i Lywodraeth Cymru. Ond mae hwn yn rhan o'r broses o gydweithio ac yn cryfhau'n gallu i asesu a monitro'r cynnydd ar hyd y trywydd—ar hyd cyfnod y 10 mlynedd.

Thank you very much. The five-year operational plan isn't a statutory one. This is a process that has been introduced in order to put more meat on the bone, as the Minister has said, for the 10-year plans, and to provide assurance to the Minister and Welsh Government officials that that prioritisation is taking place, and that action is being taken from year to year. So, this is more of an internal process for local authorities, but to be done in collaboration with their education fora. The expectation is that the operational plans are co-designed with their education fora, and then, obviously, put before their cabinet for approval before being submitted to the Welsh Government. But that's part of the process of collaboration and strengthens our ability to assess and monitor progress along the journey of the 10-year period.

Diolch am hynny. Nôl at Tom. Sori am hynny.

Thanks for that. Back to Tom. Sorry for that.

Just to go back, Minister, if you can remember what you said in answer to my last question. Just to be very, very clear, if there is a WESP where you don't feel it is delivering what it has set out, when I asked about the suite of measures, you obviously said working with local authorities to ensure that they come up to standards, and I understand that. The only other thing you said that you would do—or are able to do, or open to do, I don't know—would be drawing up a new WESP. Would that be a fair assessment of the sort of suite of powers that you'd look to engage?

So, the current mechanism is one where the WESP that the—. That is a local authority step. That is not something I can direct authorities to do. So, when I was talking about strengthening the statutory underpinning for WESPs and that being something that we could potentially have in the new Bill, it's around this space, around how you monitor compliance and how you make sure that accountability is in the system where I think the biggest opportunity is in that Bill, but that's all something that's being discussed at the moment, obviously, with Plaid Cymru. But I don't have powers to direct authorities in the way perhaps your question implies might be ideal.

Iawn? Ocê. Diolch am hwnna, Tom. Fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Sioned Williams.

All right? Thank you for that, Tom. We'll move on to Sioned Williams.

Diolch, Cadeirydd, a bore da, Gweinidog. Mae Tom a Delyth mewn gwirionedd wedi sôn yn eithaf helaeth fanna ynglŷn â'r broses monitro ac asesu. Ac fe wnaethoch chi sôn yn gynharach, yn un o'ch hatebion cynharach chi, eich bod chi'n teimlo erbyn hyn fod y CSCAau wedi'u diwygio yn derbyn y nod sy'n cael ei osod o ran polisi gan Lywodraeth Cymru a'ch bod chi'n fodlon eu bod nhw yn deall lefel yr her. Felly, yn amlwg, mae'r broses monitro ac asesu'n gwbl allweddol i wneud yn siŵr eu bod nhw'n cyflawni ar yr addewid yma a'r hyn maen nhw'n dweud eu bod nhw'n derbyn yn y cynlluniau. Rŷn ni nawr yn siarad am y cynlluniau gweithredu ar gyfer pum mlynedd cyntaf y cynlluniau a bod hynny'n cael eu monitro yn flynyddol. Felly, o beth rwy'n ei ddeall o beth ddywedodd Siwan, mae hwnna'n mynd i ddigwydd drwy gam awdurdod lleol. Ydw i'n iawn?

Thank you, Chair, and good morning, Minister. Tom and Delyth, truth be told, have talked in detail there about the monitoring and assessment process. And in one of your earlier responses, you said that you feel by now that the WESPs as amended do accept the target that has been set in terms of policy by the Welsh Government and that you are content that they understand the level of challenge. So, clearly, the monitoring and assessment process is vital to ensure that they do achieve this promise and what they say they accept in their plans. We're now talking about the implementation plans for the first five years of the plans and that that is monitored on an annual basis. But, from what I understood from what Siwan said, that is going to be done by local authorities. Is that the case?

11:05

Yr elfen o'r monitro blynyddol yna.

That element of annual monitoring.

Na, byddwn ni'n gweld y rheini hefyd. Bydd y dogfennau hynny'n rhai fydd yn cael eu cyflwyno—byddan nhw'n mynd i'r cabinets lleol, wrth gwrs, beth bynnag, ond byddwn ni'n disgwyl gweld y rheini hefyd. Byddan nhw'n ddogfennau cyhoeddus, basically.

No, we'll see those as well. The documentation will be presented—they'll go to local cabinets anyway, but we'd expect to see those as well. They will be public documents, basically.

Reit. A wedyn beth yw'r cam os nad yw'r rheini yn cyrraedd y nod yn eich tyb chi?

Right. And then what is the next step if those don't achieve the aims in your view?

Wel, byddai trafodaethau'n digwydd gyda chynghorau lleol i sicrhau bod mwy o gynnydd yn digwydd yn y cynllun. Os nad ydy hynny'n digwydd, mae gofyniad gennyf i i gyflwyno cynllun newydd. Os nad ydy hynny'n digwydd, does gennyf fi ddim gallu i allu gorfodi awdurdodau i wneud hynny. Dyna beth roeddwn i'n cyfeirio ato gynnau yn y cwestiwn gan Tom Giffard. Ond bydd hwnna yn elfen bwysig yn fy ystyriaethau i o ran buddsoddi yn ehangach. Bydd hwnna'n cael ei gymryd mewn i ystyriaeth yng nghynlluniau buddsoddi ehangach y cyngor.

Well, there will be discussions with the local authorities to ensure that more progress is made in the plan. If that doesn't happen, there will be a requirement from me to present a new plan. If that doesn't happen, we can't force local authorities to do that. That's what I referred to earlier in the earlier question from Tom Giffard. But that will be an important element of my considerations in terms of investing more widely. That will be taken into consideration in terms of the council's broader investment plans.

Iawn. Felly, er mwyn gwneud y CSCAau yma a gwneud y cynnydd yn fwy a sicrhau hynny, rŷch chi yn amlwg yn gallu defnyddio eich penderfyniadau o ran rhaglenni eraill i gymell. Oes yna rywbeth arall fyddai'n bosib?

Right. So, in order to make these WESPs and to achieve greater progress and to ensure that that happens, you clearly can use those decisions that you have on other programmes to encourage and incentivise. But are there any other steps that you could take?

Ar hyn o bryd, dyna'r strwythur statudol, ond, fel roeddwn i'n dweud yn gynharach, un o'r cyfleoedd rŷn ni'n eu trafod gyda rhai o'ch cydweithwyr chi yw beth gallwn ni wneud i sicrhau bod mwy o bwerau a chryfder statudol ynghlwm fan hyn.

At present, that's the statutory structure, but, as I said earlier, one of the opportunities that we're discussing with some of your colleagues is what we can do to ensure that there are more statutory powers in this context.

Diolch. Rydych chi wedi dweud yn eich ymateb ysgrifenedig inni, ac rwyf i wedi eich clywed chi yn dweud droeon yn y Siambr, fod y Gymraeg yn perthyn inni i gyd, a hefyd, felly, beth rwyf i'n meddwl sy'n gwbl allweddol, fod cyfrifoldeb arnon ni i gyd am ddyfodol y Gymraeg. Felly, sut ydych chi'n mynd i ymyrryd pan fo cynlluniau addysg yn anghyfrifol tuag at ddyfodol y Gymraeg o ran bod yn iaith gymunedol, ond hefyd o ran addysg Gymraeg? Dŷn ni wedi cael tystiolaeth, ac wrth gwrs rŷch chi yn ymwybodol o heriau cyfreithiol sydd wedi bod yn hyn o beth. Felly, beth mwy gellid ei wneud o ran pethau sydd ddim yn benodol yn ymwneud â'r CSCAau?

Thank you. You've said in your written response to us, and I've heard you say this time and time again in the Chamber, that the Welsh language belongs to all of us, and I think, therefore, that one of the things that are vital is that we all share the responsibility too for the future of the Welsh language. So, how are you going to intervene when education plans are irresponsible towards the future of the Welsh language with regard to it being a community language, but also in terms of Welsh-medium education? We've had evidence, and you, of course, are aware of legal challenges in this direction. So, what more can be done in terms of the things that aren't specifically related to the WESPs?

Beth sydd gyda chi mewn golwg?

What do you have in mind?

Wel, meddwl roeddwn i ynglŷn â datblygiadau o ran addysg cyfrwng Saesneg, neu unrhyw ddatblygiadau fyddai'n cael effaith ar ddyfodol y Gymraeg mewn cymuned neu o ran addysg Gymraeg mewn cymuned. Rŷch chi wedi sôn tipyn bach am seilwaith, onid ydych chi?

Well, I was thinking about developments in terms of English-medium education, or any developments that would have an impact on the future of the Welsh language in a community or in terms of Welsh-medium education in a community. You've talked about infrastructure, haven't you?

Mae strwythur gyfreithiol yn perthyn i hynny yn barod, wrth gwrs. Wrth i chi edrych ar gynlluniau datblygu addysg yn gyffredinol, fel rŷch chi'n gwybod mewn cyd-destun arall, mae cyfrifoldebau ar awdurdodau lleol i gymryd yr effaith mae'r rheini yn ei gael neu'r effaith bosib arfaethedig bydd y rheini'n cael ar addysg Gymraeg i mewn i ystyriaeth wrth ddatblygu cynlluniau. Os nad yw awdurdodau yn gwneud hynny, fel dylen nhw fod yn ei wneud, mae risg wedyn i'r cynlluniau sydd ganddyn nhw, fod rhwystr iddyn nhw yn gyfreithiol rhag mynd yn eu blaen. Felly, mae'r strwythur honno yno eisoes drwy her barnwriaethol ac ati.

A legal structure is involved in that already, of course. As you look at education development plans generally, as you know in another context, there is a responsibility on local authorities to take the impact that they will have, or the possible impact, on Welsh-medium education into consideration in developing plans. And if local authorities don't do that, as they should do, there is a risk that the plans that they have will face a legal barrier in terms of them progressing. So, that structure already exists in terms of judicial challenge and so on.

Ond, yn amlwg, rŷn ni wedi gweld achosion lle mae hynny wedi digwydd. Oes yna rywbeth gallai fod o ran monitro'r Llywodraeth er mwyn sicrhau dyw e ddim yn cyrraedd y cam yna? 

But, clearly, we have seen cases where that has happened. Is there anything that could be done in terms of monitoring by the Government to ensure that it doesn't reach that step?

Wel, mae hynny'n digwydd eisoes. Mae hynny yn digwydd beth bynnag ac mae hynny'n rhan o'r monitro bydd yn digwydd yn sgil y cynlluniau strategol beth bynnag. Mae hynny'n elfen; dyw hynny ddim wedi cael ei gyfyngu i adeiladu ysgolion newydd na symud ar y continwwm. Mae elfennau eraill sydd yn y cynlluniau sy'n caniatáu'r monitro hwnnw i ddigwydd. Ond mae'r strwythur gyfreithiol yn glir iawn, fe fyddwn i'n dweud, ar hyn o bryd o ran y cyfrifoldebau sydd ar awdurdodau i sicrhau nad oes effaith andwyol ar y Gymraeg wrth eu bod nhw'n datblygu cynlluniau.

Well, that already happens. That's part of the monitoring that's happening in the wake of the WESPs anyway. That is an element; that isn't limited to building new schools or moving along the continuum. There are other elements in the WESPs that allow that monitoring to happen. But the legal structure is very clear at present, I would say, in terms of the responsibilities on local authorities to ensure that there is no detrimental impact on the Welsh language in developing plans.

11:10

Dydych chi ddim yn teimlo bod yna ffordd fwy effeithiol y gallai'r Llywodraeth ofalu ar ôl hynny.

You don't feel that there is a more effective way that the Government could safeguard that.

Os oes unrhyw sylwadau penodol gan y pwyllgor i'w gwneud yn y cyd-destun hwnnw, byddai diddordeb mawr gyda fi i weld hynny yng nghyd-destun y Bil newydd. Mae cyfle gennym ni, os oes gennych chi argymhellion penodol i'w gwneud yn hynny o beth, a byddai gen i ddiddordeb i glywed beth fydden nhw.

If the committee has any specific comments to make on that, I'd be very interested to see those in the context of the new Bill. We have an opportunity, if you have specific recommendations to make on that, I'd be interested to hear them.

Iawn, diolch. Rydyn ni wedi cael sawl tyst yn sôn am fanteision cael system genedlaethol i fonitro cynnydd, gan wrth gwrs ddeall bod yna amrywiadau, fel gwnaethoch chi sôn, a bod pob awdurdod yn dechrau o fan gwahanol ac mewn sefyllfa wahanol. Ond, roedden nhw'n sôn y byddai cael rhyw system genedlaethol yn fanteisiol, ac rydyn ni wedi cael awgrym gan awdurdodau lleol a Chymdeithas yr Iaith, er enghraifft, y byddai efallai rhoi'r rôl yna i Estyn yn fanteisiol. Allaf i gael eich barn chi ar hynny?

Okay, thank you. We've heard several witnesses talking about the advantages of having a national system to monitor progress, understanding of course that there will be variation, as you said, that every local authority is starting from a different position and is in a different situation. But, they said that having a national system would be advantageous, and we have had a response from local authorities and Cymdeithas yr Iaith, for example, that giving that role to Estyn could be advantageous. Could I have your view on that, please?

Mae gennym ni strwythur genedlaethol i fonitro'r rhain. Mae gennym ni fframwaith genedlaethol. Rydyn ni wedi bod yn trafod rhai o'r elfennau sydd gennym ni i gytuno'r cynlluniau yma gydag awdurdodau lleol. Rwy'n credu ei fod wir yn bwysig ein bod ni ddim yn colli'r cysylltiad lleol. Mae'n sicr bod opsiynau gennym ni er mwyn cryfhau beth gellid ei wneud o ran pwerau i sicrhau bod atebolrwydd yn y system. Rydyn ni'n trafod y rheini mewn cyd-destun arall. Ond, byddwn i ddim eisiau gweld colli'r cysylltiad lleol rhwng darpariaeth a'r hyn sydd ei angen o ran cynllunio'n lleol. Mae'r elfen leol yna'n bwysig iawn. Mae'n rhan elfennol o'n system ni. Rwy'n credu bod angen sicrhau hynny.

We have a national structure to monitor those. We have a national framework. We've been discussing some of the elements that we have in terms of agreeing these plans with local authorities. I think it's very important that we don't lose that local connection. Certainly, we have options to strengthen what can be done around powers to ensure that there is accountability in the system. We're discussing that in another context. But, I wouldn't want to see that local link lost between provision and what is needed in terms of local planning. That local element is very important. It's a fundamental part of our system. I think that we need to ensure that.

Diolch. Dwi'n meddwl mai ymateb oedden nhw i'r amrywiadau sydd wedi bod yn y gorffennol. Felly, byddai cael rhyw fath o un fframwaith genedlaethol yn help o ran cysondeb.

Thank you. I think that they were responding to the variation that there has been in the past. So, having some kind of single national framework would help in terms of consistency.

Dwi ddim yn derbyn hynny. Mae'r amrywiaeth yn digwydd yn sgil lle mae'r cynghorau'n cychwyn ar y siwrnai yn y cyfnod 10 mlynedd yma. Dwi ddim yn credu bod yr amrywiaeth—. Wel, wrth gwrs mae amrywiaeth, ond mae'r rhan fwyaf o hynny'n cael ei esbonio gan lle mae'r awdurdodau ar eu siwrnai, yn hytrach na diffyg uchelgais, er enghraifft. Felly, dwi ddim yn credu y gellir rhoi fframwaith iddyn nhw i wneud yr un gofyniad i bob awdurdod ym mhob man ac amser. Mae'n rhaid bod yn ymarferol a thywys pobl ar hyd llwybr sydd yn ymarferol, yn deliverable, ac sydd yn gallu cael ei fonitro yn y ffordd honno. Dwi ddim yn credu y gallwch chi gael system genedlaethol sydd yn gwneud yr un gofyniad ym mhob rhan.

I don't accept that. The variation happens in terms of where councils start on the journey of that 10-year plan. I don't think that the variation—. Well, of course there is variation, but most of that is explained in terms of where the authorities are on their journey, rather than a lack of ambition, for example. So, I don't think that we can provide a framework to impose the same requirements on everybody. We have to be practical and lead people along a journey that is practical, deliverable, and that can be monitored in that way. I don't think that you can have a national system that imposes the same requirement everywhere.

Diolch. Diolch, Cadeirydd.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Ocê, fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Hefin David.

Okay, we'll move on to Hefin David.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. A oes tystiolaeth glir bod y WESPs sydd wedi eu derbyn yn gweithio'n dda gyda rhaglenni cyllidol Llywodraeth Cymru, ac a oes yna ffordd i wella hyn yn y dyfodol?

Thank you, Chair. Is there clear evidence that the approved WESPs are well aligned with the Welsh Government's funding programmes, and is there a way to improve that in the future?

Oes, mae ffordd i wella hyn yn y dyfodol. Mae dau beth penodol rwyf wedi cyflwyno. Y peth cyntaf, fel roeddwn yn cyfeirio ato yn fyr yn gynharach, yw bod dull mwy hyblyg gennym ni nawr o fuddsoddi drwy'r rhaglen gyfalaf, drwy cymunedau dysgu cynaliadwy, fel bod awdurdodau’n gallu datblygu cynlluniau yn gynt, os ydy hynny'n gweddu gyda'u cynlluniau strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg. Mae hynny'n creu hyblygrwydd newydd sydd yn cael ei groesawu. Bydd y cynlluniau naw mlynedd newydd sydd yn cael eu cyflwyno gan awdurdodau felly'n cyd-fynd â chyfnod 10 mlynedd y WESP, gan ei wneud yn haws felly i'r ddau gynllun gael eu halinio'n gyffredinol. Rwyf wedi sôn eisoes fy mod wedi dweud bod disgwyliad gen i fod cynlluniau strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg yn rhan ganolog o gynllunio cyfalaf awdurdodau lleol. Mae'r arian rydyn ni'n darparu hefyd ar ben y rhaglen gyfalaf gyffredinol—hynny yw, grantiau cyfrwng Cymraeg penodol. Rŷn ni wedi buddsoddi rhyw £76 miliwn, dwi'n credu, dros y pedair blynedd diwethaf, ac mae hynny ar ben y cynllun cyfalaf cyffredinol. Felly, mae pethau y gallwn ni eu gwneud, ond rŷn ni wedi cymryd y camau i ddodi hynny yn ei le, dwi'n credu.

Yes, there is a way that this could be improved in future. There are two specific things that I have introduced. The first, as I mentioned briefly earlier, is that there is a more flexible method now of investing through the capital programme, through sustainable communities for learning, so that authorities can develop plans more swiftly, if that aligns with their Welsh in education strategic plans. That provides that newer flexibility that is to be welcomed. The new nine-year plans that are to be introduced by authorities will align with the 10-year WESP period and, therefore, make it easier for the two plans to be aligned in general. I have previously said that I have an expectation that the WESPs are a central part of capital planning by local authorities. The funding that we provide is on top of the general capital programme, namely the specific Welsh-medium grants. We've invested some £76 million, I believe, over the past four years, and that is on top of the general capital funding. So, there are things that we can do, but we have taken those steps already, I think.

11:15

Diolch. Ydych chi'n gallu sôn mwy am y ffordd newydd o fuddsoddi cyllid cyfalaf ar gyfer y rhaglen cymunedau dysgu cynaliadwy, a beth yw eich disgwyliadau ar gynghorau lleol i fuddsoddi gyda'r WESPs?

Thank you. Could you expand on the new approach of investing capital investment for the sustainable communities for learning scheme, and what are your expectations on local authorities in terms of investing with WESPs?

Dwi wedi dweud eisoes yn y llythyron dwi wedi'u danfon at awdurdodau lleol yn cymeradwyo'u cynlluniau strategol nhw fod y cynlluniau buddsoddi ehangach yn cael eu hasesu yn erbyn y CSCAau i sicrhau aliniad. Felly, mae'r cysylltiad hwnnw nawr wedi cael ei wneud. Mae'r disgwyliad yn glir, a dwi wedi bod yn ailbwysleisio hynny yn y trafodaethau un wrth un rwyf wedi bod yn eu cael gydag arweinwyr unigol.

Mae'n bwysig hefyd, pan fydd awdurdodau yn ystyried cynigion cynllunio ysgolion, eu bod nhw'n parhau i edrych ar y darlun ehangach wrth wneud hynny, er enghraifft, fel roeddwn i jest yn cyfeirio'n fras gyda Sioned Williams jest nawr, effaith symud neu gyflwyno darpariaeth addysg Gymraeg newydd ar gymuned leol, anghenion teithio a darpariaeth meithrinfa addas. Mae angen edrych ar yr holl bethau hynny sydd yn y CSCAau wrth edrych ar eu cynlluniau cyfalaf.

I've already said in the letters that I've sent to local authorities approving their strategic plans that the wider investment plans are assessed against the WESPs to ensure that they do align. So, that link has been made. The expectation is clear, and I've re-emphasised that in the one-to-one discussions that I've had with individual leaders.

It's important too, when the local authorities consider planning proposals for schools, that they continue to look at the wider picture in doing so, for example, as I just mentioned in response to Sioned Williams now, the impact of moving or introducing new Welsh-medium education on a local community, transport considerations and the provision of appropriate nursery provision. They need to look at all of those aspects in the WESPs as they look at their capital plans.

Chi'n hapus? Grêt. Ocê. Diolch am hynny. Fe wnawn ni fynd yn ôl at Sioned Williams am ddarpariaeth sector cyfrwng Saesneg.

Are you content with that? Okay. Thank you very much. We'll go back to Sioned Williams now on English-medium sector provision.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Jest eisiau holi a oes yna ddigon o ffocws ar gynyddu darpariaeth Gymraeg yn y sector cyfrwng Saesneg, a jest eisiau gofyn beth yw'r prif bethau sydd angen digwydd i sicrhau bod hynny'n digwydd.

Thank you, Chair. I just wanted to ask is there enough focus on increasing the Welsh-medium provision in the English-medium sector, and I just wanted to ask what are the main things that need to happen to ensure that that happens.

Ocê. Y pwynt dwi wedi ei wneud ar y cychwyn cyntaf, yn ateb i gwestiwn Alun Davies—hynny yw, beth yw'r pethau posib byddwn i eisiau eu gweld yn y Bil—yw mai un o'r pethau dwi'n credu sydd yn gyfle i ni yma yw ein bod ni'n gallu uno'r system, fel bod pob rhan o'r system yn cyfrannu, os hoffech chi, tuag at y nod ieithyddol sydd gennym ni. Cynlluniau strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg yw'r cynlluniau, yn hytrach na chynlluniau strategol addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg. Felly, mae'r gwahaniaeth cysyniadol hwnnw yn un pwrpasol ac yn un pwysig. Ein huchelgais ni yw bod pawb sy'n dysgu mewn ysgol yng Nghymru yn cael eu cefnogi i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg a bod cynnydd parhaus; wrth eu bod nhw'n cynyddu gallu eu bod yn cynyddu hyder, a bod hynny'n digwydd drwy'r system i gyd.

Mae lot o'r diwygiadau sydd gennym ni ar y gweill eisoes, er enghraifft, y cwricwlwm newydd, yn cyfrannu at ddarparu darpariaeth. Mae rhai elfennau o'r CSCAau, er enghraifft, cynyddu niferoedd athrawon sy'n medru dysgu'r Gymraeg, mae hynny, wrth gwrs, hefyd yn mynd i fod o fantais i'r system cyfrwng Saesneg. Fel rhan o roi'r cwricwlwm ar waith, dŷn ni'n gweithio gyda'r partneriaid yn y rhanbarthau i edrych ar ba gymorth sydd ei angen ar ymarferwyr i allu gwireddu hyn. Rŷn ni newydd gyhoeddi fframwaith ar gyfer dysgu ac addysgu yn y Gymraeg mewn addysg cyfrwng Saesneg. Mae eisiau cefnogi hynny gydag adnoddau ehangach, fel bod yr athrawon yn gallu dodi'r fframwaith ar waith, ond pwrpas y fframwaith hwnnw yw bod pob ymarferydd yn gallu gweld beth yw'r llwybr, os hoffech chi.

Ond dwi ddim yn tanystyried am eiliad pa mor heriol yw'r cwestiwn o staffio er mwyn gallu gwireddu hyn. Mae e'n her sylweddol iawn, a dyna pam mae'r cysylltiad rhwng y cynllun recriwtio 10 mlynedd a'r WESPs mor bwysig ar un llaw, a dyna pam hefyd mae'r elfen o berchnogaeth leol, nid jest, fel petai, i ddelifro'r CSCAau, ond hefyd i sicrhau bod cyflenwad o staff ar gael—mae dimensiwn lleol i hynny hefyd yn bwysig.

Okay. The point that I made initially, in response to Alun Davies—namely what are the things that I would want to see in the Bill—is one of the things that I think is an opportunity for us is that we can unify and unite the system, so that every part of the system contributes, if you will, to that linguistic aim that we have. These are Welsh in education strategic plans, rather than strategic plans for Welsh-medium education. So, that conceptual difference is a deliberate one and an important one. Our ambition is that everyone who learns in a school in Wales is supported to use the Welsh language and that continuous progress is made; as they increase their ability they increase their confidence, and that that happens throughout the system.

I think that a lot of the reforms that are already in train, for example, the new curriculum, contribute towards the provision. Some elements of the WESPs, for example, increasing the number of teachers who are able to teach Welsh, that, of course, is going to be advantageous to the English-medium system too. As part of implementing the curriculum, we are working with partners in the regions to look at what support practitioners need to achieve this. We've just published a framework for teaching and learning through the medium of Welsh in English-medium education. We want to support that with wider resources, so that the teachers are able to use the framework and implement the framework, but the purpose of that framework is that every practitioner is able to see what the pathway is, if you like.

But I don't underestimate for a second how challenging the question of staffing is in order to be able to achieve this. It is a very significant challenge, and that's why the link between the 10-year recruitment plan and the WESPs is so important, and that's why too the element of local ownership, not just to deliver the WESPs, but also ensure that there is a supply of staff available—that that local dimension is there too, and that's important. 

Ie, mae'r cwestiwn o hyfforddi staff yn ganolog, onid yw e?

Yes, the question of staff training is central, isn't it?

Dwi'n gwybod bod gwaith yn digwydd ar hynny ac, am wn i, bydd e'n rhan ganolog o'r Bil addysg newydd. Beth yw’r gwendidau presennol o ran hynny, yn eich barn chi?

I know that work is happening on that, and I'm sure that'll be a central part of the new education Bill. What are the current weaknesses, in your opinion?

11:20

O ran recriwtio a hyfforddi staff i fedru dysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, neu ddarparu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.

In terms of recruiting and training staff to teach through the medium of Welsh or provide provision through the medium of Welsh.

Wel, dyw’r rhifau ddim gennym ni sydd eu hangen arnom ni—dyna’r her sylfaenol. Rŷn ni wedi cynyddu’r gyllideb sydd ar gael i gefnogi’r cynllun 10 mlynedd sydd gennym ni. Mae lot o'r pethau rŷn ni'n eu cynnig yn y cynllun 10 mlynedd yna—a diolch i’r holl bartneriaid am eu cyfraniadau nhw—maen nhw’n bethau newydd, maen nhw’n bethau, efallai, sydd yn greadigol ar un lefel, rhai ohonyn nhw. Rwy’n glir na fydd popeth ddim yn llwyddo yn y ffordd rŷn ni’n gobeithio, ond mae angen trio amryw o bethau i weld beth yw'r pethau fydd yn fwyaf llwyddiannus. Mae’r cymhelliannau ariannol wedi cael eu hymestyn. Rwy’n gweld bod yn dal yn rôl i’r cynllun Pontio, er enghraifft, ond mae pethau fel edrych hefyd ar raddedigion sy’n astudio yn Lloegr, er enghraifft, neu yn yr Alban, sy’n siarad Cymraeg—mae gwaith gyda’r Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol ar hyn o bryd i sicrhau ein bod ni’n cynnal perthynas gyda nhw—ac efallai eu hannog nhw i ddod yn ôl i ddysgu yng Nghymru, ac ymestyn y cymhellion, a gyrru’r rhifau sydd yn gwneud Cymraeg Safon Uwch.

Ond hefyd mae elfen fwy creiddiol, os hoffech chi, hynny yw, sicrhau ein bod ni, nid yn marchnata—mae hynny’n ffordd rhy gynnil o edrych arno fe—ond yn bod yn fwy strategol, efallai, ynglŷn â sut rŷn ni’n cyfathrebu manteision gyrfa ddysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, a hefyd cefnogi penaethiaid i allu cynllunio yn strategol ar y cyd yn eu rhanbarthau. Roedd cwestiwn yn gynharach am beth gellid ei wneud ar lefel ehangach na lefel yr ysgol yn unig. Wel, mae angen i ni gefnogi penaethiaid i gael y gofod i weithio yn strategol yn y maes yma, a’u cefnogi nhw yn hynny o beth, ac mae hynny’n rhan o’r cynllun sydd gennym ni.

Mae’r data yn un o’r heriau sydd gennym ni yn hyn o beth. Dyna un o’r rhwystrau sydd gennym ni. Rŷn ni’n gweithio gyda mwy nag un awdurdod lleol i weld beth mwy gallwn ni ei wneud i wella safon y data fel bod y wybodaeth gyda ni ynglŷn â beth sy’n gweithio yn y cynllun 10 mlynedd.

Well, we don’t have the figures that we need—that’s the fundamental challenge. We have increased the budget available to support the 10-year plan that we have. Many of the things that we provide in that 10-year plan—and thanks to all of the partners for their contributions—are new things, they are things that perhaps are creative at one level, some of them. I am clear that everything won’t succeed in the way that we hope it will, but we have to try a range of things to see what is most successful. The financial incentives have been extended. I see that there’s still a role for the Pontio scheme, for example, but we also need to look at graduates studying in England and Scotland who are able to speak Welsh—the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol has work in train so that we can continue our relationship with those graduates—and encourage them to return to Wales to teach, and extend the incentives, and drive the numbers of those studying A-level Welsh.

But there’s also that more fundamental element too, namely ensuring that we, not market—that’s too narrow a way of looking at it—but that we are more strategic, perhaps, in how we can communicate the advantages of a career in teaching through the medium of Welsh, and also support school leaders to plan strategically in their regions. There was a question earlier about what we can do on a wider level than an individual school level. Well, we need to support leaders to have the space to work strategically in this area, and support them in that regard, and that’s part of the plan that we have.

The data is one of the challenges that we have in this regard. That’s one of the barriers that we face. We are working with more than one local authority to see what more can be done to improve the quality of data so that we have information about what is working in the 10-year plan.

Diolch yn fawr. Diolch, Gadeirydd.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair.

Diolch am hynna, Weinidog. Jest dau beth cyflym cyn i ni orffen. O ran beth oeddech chi’n codi fanna gyda Sioned Williams am yr heriau am recriwtio a staffio, mae’r Mudiad Meithrin wedi datblygu cyrsiau oherwydd maen nhw’n ceisio mynd i’r afael â’r angen am nifer o staff sydd wedi’u hyfforddi ar gyfer nursery settings. Achos mae’r cynllun yn dechrau mewn pryd ar gyfer TGAU, un o’r heriau ar gyfer recriwtio staff, os ydyn nhw’n mynd i ddysgu drwy’r iaith Gymraeg yw, erbyn iddyn nhw benderfynu, efallai, eu bod nhw eisiau mynd mewn i ddysgu, mae fe’n rhy hwyr iddyn nhw wneud hynna. Ydy hynna’n rhywbeth efallai y byddech chi’n ystyried ei gyflwyno o ran gwneud rhywbeth yn gynharach yn y sesiwn ysgol?

Thank you, Minister. Could I just ask two things before we finish? In terms of what you raised there with Sioned Williams about the recruitment challenges and the staffing challenges, Mudiad Meithrin have developed courses because they’re trying to tackle the need for staff who are trained for nursery settings. Because those courses are going to start in time for GCSE, one of the challenges for staff recruitment in terms of Welsh-medium provision is that by the time they've decided that they want to go into teaching, it’s too late for them to do so. Is that something that you’d consider introducing in terms of doing something earlier in the school session?

Wel, rwy’n hapus i edrych ar hynny. Dwi ddim yn gwybod y manylion hynny, Gadeirydd, ond byddwn i’n hapus iawn i edrych ar hynny. Mae’r her mor sylweddol ac mae hyn yn cael ei dderbyn gan bartneriaid ar draws y system i gyd. Dylwn i ddweud bod yr her recriwtio yn un sy’n gyffredin i systemau addysg ym mhob man, felly dyw e ddim yn benodol, ond mae’n enwedig o her yn y cyd-destun cyfrwng Cymraeg, wrth gwrs, am resymau amlwg. Felly, rwy’n agored i unrhyw awgrymiadau creadigol am sut gallem ni newid y system gefnogi hynny. Felly, gwnaf edrych yn fwy agos ar y pwynt rydych chi newydd ei wneud.

Well, I’m happy to look at that. I don’t know about the details of that, Chair, but I’d be happy to look at that. This is a significant challenge and that’s accepted by partners across the sector. I should say that the recruitment challenge is one that is common in education systems everywhere, so it’s not specific, but it is particularly challenging in the Welsh-medium context, for obvious reasons. So, I’m open to any creative suggestions in terms of how we can change the system to support that. So, I will look in more detail at the point that you’ve made.

Diolch am hynna, Weinidog. Ac o ran y continwwm iaith a chategoreiddio ysgolion, ydy e’n broblem, ydych chi’n meddwl, taw dim ond wyth awdurdod sydd wedi gwneud ymrwymiadau clir i naill ai symud yn fwy neu fynd ar y continwwm ieithyddol yna? Ydy hynna’n rhywbeth sydd yn peri pryder i chi?

Thank you for that, Minister. In terms of the language continuum and school categorisation, is it a problem, do you think, that only eight authorities have made clear commitments to either moving further or continuing on that language continuum? Is that a cause of concern for you?

Dwi ddim yn credu. Mae hynny’n uchelgeisiol; byddwn i ddim yn disgwyl gweld yr un proffil ym mhob awdurdod lleol. Mae rhai awdurdodau lleol lle ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg ar lefel gynradd yw’r unig rai sydd ganddyn nhw, felly mae’r darlun yn wahanol ym mhob rhan o Gymru. Felly, dwi ddim fy hunan yn meddwl mai dim ond wyth allan o'r 22 sy'n gwneud hynny. Dwi ddim yn gweld hynny fel rhywbeth sydd yn tanseilio'r cynlluniau o gwbl; mae'n rhan o'r mix, onid yw e? 

I don't think so. I think that that is ambitious; I wouldn’t expect to see the same profile in every local authority. There are some local authorities where Welsh-medium schools in the primary sector are the only ones that they have, so the picture is different in every part of Wales. So, I don’t see it as being just eight out of 22. I don't see that as being something that undermines the WESPs; it's part of the mix, isn't it? 

11:25

Ie, siŵr. Gaf i ofyn hefyd, o ran problemau gyda recriwtio mwy o athrawon, a oes unrhyw heriau eraill y byddech chi eisiau i ni fod yn ystyried pan dŷn ni yn adrodd ar hyn, yn ychwanegol i'r hyn dŷch chi wedi'i ddweud yn barod? 

Yes, certainly. May I also ask, in terms of issues with regard to recruiting more teachers, are there any other challenges that you would wish us to bear in mind when we report on this, in addition to what you've already said? 

Mae lot o stwff sydd eisoes yn gyhoeddus yng nghyd-destun ein cynlluniau ni a beth rŷn ni wedi cyhoeddi yn y rhaglen 10 mlynedd sy'n mynd i'r afael â rhai o'r heriau penodol o ran recriwtio. Beth rwy'n credu sydd yn bwysig yw ein bod ni'n edrych ar yr ecosystem recriwtio yn ei gyfanrwydd, os hoffwch chi. Felly, mae recriwtio athrawon yn elfen, wrth gwrs, gwbl greiddiol i hynny, ond mae angen edrych hefyd ar recriwtio cynorthwywyr, er enghraifft, oherwydd mae hynny'n sicr yn rhan greiddiol iawn o sut rŷch chi'n gallu darparu addysg Gymraeg. Felly, mae'n rhaid edrych ar y tirlun ehangach, rwy'n credu, nid jest recriwtio athrawon yn benodol. 

There are lots of things that are already public in terms of our plans and the things that we've published in the 10-year plan that tackle some of the specific challenges in terms of recruitment. What is important is that we look at the ecosystem for recruitment in its entirety, if you like. So, recruiting teachers is vital to that, of course, but we need to also look at recruiting assistants, for example, because that is another vital part of how you provide Welsh-medium education. So, we have to look at the broader landscape, rather than just the recruitment of teachers.  

'Ecosystem recriwtio'—rwy'n hoffi hwnna; mae hwnna'n dda. Diolch am hwnna, Weinidog. Roeddech chi wedi crybwyll pan roeddech chi'n sôn am y Bil efallai y byddai hwnna'n cynnwys pwerau ychwanegol i Weinidogion. A fyddech chi'n gallu cadarnhau beth oeddech chi'n awgrymu? Ai pwerau ymyrryd fyddai hwnna? Pa fath o bwerau ychwanegol efallai fyddai'n cael eu cynnwys? 

'Recruitment ecosystem'—I like that; that's good. Thank you for that, Minister. You mentioned when you were talking about the Bill that perhaps that would include additional powers for Ministers. Could you confirm what you were suggesting there? Would they be intervention powers? What kinds of additional powers would be proposed? 

Mae'r trafodaethau hynny yn digwydd ar hyn o bryd, Gadeirydd, so dwi ddim mewn lle i ymhelaethu ar hynny ar hyn o bryd. Ond, fyddai'n hapus iawn i roi diweddariad i'r pwyllgor ar hynny yn benodol, os hoffwch chi, pan ddaw'r amser. 

Those discussions are happening at present, so I'm not in a position to expand on that at present. But I'd be very content to provide an update to the committee on that specifically, if you'd like, when the time comes. 

Iawn, diolch am hwnna. Fe wnaf i jest 'check-o'—mae gennym ni dri munud ar ôl cyn bod y Gweinidog yn gorfod ein gadael ni. A oes gan unrhyw Aelod unrhyw gwestiwn pellach maen nhw eisiau gofyn? Dwi ddim yn gweld bod. Na. Felly, a gaf i ddiolch i chi, Weinidog ac i Siwan ac i Bethan hefyd am fod gyda ni? Bydd transgript o'r hyn dŷch chi wedi'i ddweud—. Siwan, sori, oeddech chi eisiau dod mewn ar rywbeth? Na. Sori, roeddwn i'n camgymryd. Bydd transgript o'r hyn sydd wedi cael ei ddweud yn cael ei ddanfon atoch chi i chi wirio ei fod e'n record teg, ac efallai bydd yna un neu ddau o bynciau a oedd yn rhy eang i ni fynd mewn iddyn nhw, ac felly efallai byddwn ni'n ysgrifennu atoch chi, os mae hwnna'n ocê. 

Right, thank you very much for that. I'll just check—we have three minutes remaining before the Minister has to leave us. Do any Members have any further questions that they'd like to ask? I don't see that there are any. So, may I thank you, Minister, and Siwan and Bethan for joining us this morning? A transcript of what has been said—. Siwan, did you want to come in on anything there? No. Sorry, that was a mistake on my part there. A transcript of what has been said will be sent to you for you to check for accuracy, and perhaps there will be one or two issues that were too wide for us to cover in detail today, and we will write to you on those, if that's okay. 

Ond, am nawr, a gaf i ddiolch i chi eto am y dystiolaeth bore yma? Diolch i chi i gyd.

But, for now, I'll thank you once again for your evidence this morning. Thank you.

Ocê. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi. 

Thank you very much. 

Aelodau, fel roeddem ni wedi cytuno'n gynharach, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42, byddwn ni'n gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod heddiw. 

Members, as we agreed earlier, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, we will now exclude the public from the remainder of today's meeting. 

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 11:27.

The meeting ended at 11:27.