Pwyllgor Diwylliant, Cyfathrebu, y Gymraeg, Chwaraeon, a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol

Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

28/09/2022

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Alun Davies MS
Carolyn Thomas MS
Hefin David MS
Heledd Fychan MS
Sioned Williams MS
Tom Giffard MS

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Dyfan Sion Swyddfa Comisiynydd y Gymraeg
Office of the Welsh Language Commissioner
Eithne Hughes Cymdeithas Arweinwyr Ysgolion a Cholegau Cymru
Association of School and College Leaders Cymru
Elin Maher Rhieni dros Addysg Gymraeg
Parents for Welsh Medium Education
Heini Gruffudd Dyfodol i’r Iaith
Dyfodol i’r Iaith
Ioan Rhys Jones UCAC
UCAC
Siôn Amlyn NASWUT
NASWUT
Toni Schiavone Cymdeithas yr Iaith
Cymdeithas yr Iaith

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Lleu Williams Clerc
Clerk
Martha Da Gama Howells Ail Glerc
Second Clerk
Osian Bowyer Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Robin Wilkinson Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Tanwen Summers Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Cyfarfu’r pwyllgor yn y Senedd a thrwy gynhadledd fideo.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:30.

The committee met in the Senedd and by video-conference.

The meeting began at 09:30.

Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.22 i benodi Cadeirydd dros dro
Motion under Standing Order 17.22 to appoint a temporary Chair

Good morning. Unfortunately, Delyth is unable to chair today's meeting. In her absence, I'd like to propose a motion under Standing Order 17.22, to elect a temporary Chair for today, and that is Heledd Fychan. Are there any objections from Members? No. In which case, Heledd is duly elected as Chair of this meeting. Thank you.

Penodwyd Heledd Fychan yn Gadeirydd dros dro.

Heledd Fychan was appointed temporary Chair.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Diolch yn fawr iawn, a bore da i chi i gyd. Croeso i gyfarfod cyntaf y Pwyllgor Diwylliant, Cyfathrebu, y Gymraeg, Chwaraeon a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol yn nhymor yr hydref. Yn ymuno â ni heddiw mae Sioned Williams, o'r Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg, gan ein bod ni'n gwneud gwaith ar y cyd o ran craffu ar y cynlluniau strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg fel rhan o'n hymchwiliad. Felly, croeso mawr, Sioned, atom ni. Gaf i ofyn i Aelodau i ddechrau, a oes yna unrhyw fuddiannau i'w datgan heddiw? Na. Yn amlwg, os oes yna rywbeth yn codi, mi fedrwch chi wastad sôn am fuddiannau hefyd wrth i'r sesiwn fynd rhagddi.

Thank you very much, and good morning, everyone. Welcome to the first meeting of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee of this autumn term. Joining us today is Sioned Williams, from the Children, Young People and Education Committee, as we are undertaking joint work with regard to scrutiny of the Welsh in education strategic plans, as part of this inquiry. So, a very warm welcome to you, Sioned. May I ask Members initially whether they have any declarations of interest to make? No, I see that there are none. If anything should arise, you can mention any interests during the session.

2. Cynlluniau Strategol Cymraeg mewn Addysg: Sesiwn dystiolaeth gydag undebau athrawon
2. Welsh in Education Strategic Plans (WESPS): Evidence session with teaching unions

Fel arall, gaf i groesawu ein tystion atom ni y bore yma? Diolch o galon i chi am ymuno efo ni, a diolch hefyd i'r rhai ohonoch sydd wedi cyflwyno tystiolaeth ymlaen llaw, sy'n fuddiol iawn i ni. Gaf i ofyn i chi i gyflwyno eich hunain, os gwelwch chi'n dda? Os caf i ddechrau efo Ioan, sydd yn yr ystafell.

May I also welcome our witnesses to us this morning? A very warm welcome to you, and thank you very much to you for joining us, and thank you to those of you who have submitted written evidence ahead of time—it's very beneficial to us. May I ask you to introduce yourselves, please? If I can start with Ioan, who is in the room.

Bore da. Ioan Rhys Jones, ysgrifennydd cyffredinol UCAC—Undeb Cenedlaethol Athrawon Cymru. Diolch.

Good morning. Ioan Rhys Jones, general secretary, Undeb Cenedlaethol Athrawon Cymru—UCAC.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. A gaf i fynd, rŵan, at y sgrin, os gwelwch yn dda? Siôn.

Thank you very much. And if I could go to the screen—Siôn.

Siôn Amlyn, swyddog achos a pholisïau, NASUWT Cymru.

Siôn Amlyn, policy and casework official, NASUWT Cymru.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Ac yn olaf—.

Thank you very much. And finally—.

Eithne Hughes. I'm the director for the Association of School and College Leaders Cymru.

Diolch o galon i chi, a diolch am ymuno, fel y gwnes i sôn. Rydyn ni rŵan yn mynd yn syth at y cwestiynau, ac rydyn ni'n dechrau'r bore yma efo cwestiwn gan Alun Davies.

Thank you very much to you, and thank you for joining us, as I said. We will now go straight to questions from Members, and we're starting this morning with a question from Alun Davies.

Diolch i chi. Nawr, WESPs ydy'r prif ffordd sydd gyda ni o ddatblygu addysg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg—dyna'r fframwaith sydd gyda ni. Ydyn nhw'n gweithio?

Thank you very much. Now, the WESPs are the main way we have, the framework we have, for developing Welsh-medium education. Do they work?

Fe wnaf i gychwyn, efallai. Ydyn, ar y cyfan, ac maen nhw'n sicr yn welliant ar yr hyn a fu. Wrth gwrs, mae yna sawl cwestiwn yn codi o'r WESPs, ac mae yna sawl cwestiwn yn codi gennym ni o ran y drafftiau rydyn ni wedi eu gweld. Yn amlwg, dwi'n ymwybodol bod y Llywodraeth wedi bod yn cydweithio efo'r awdurdodau i'w mireinio nhw ac i'w gwella nhw. Ond does yna ddim dwywaith bod angen strwythur mwy pendant, mwy clir, sydd am roi arweiniad i ysgolion, rhoi arweiniad i athrawon, ac rydym ni'n edrych ymlaen yn hynny o beth i weld beth fydd cynnwys y Papur Gwyn yn y gwanwyn o ran Deddf addysg Gymraeg. Mae yna wendidau, o'r drafftiau rydyn ni wedi eu gweld—diffyg ymdriniaeth o ddata, diffyg ymdriniaeth o ddata ar lefel leol, diffyg wedyn o ran mapio. Mae yna gwestiynau'n codi o ran uchelgais yr awdurdodau. Ac mae'n amlwg bod yna issues penodol o ran datblygu'r ddarpariaeth o fewn ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg ac ymrafael â chymwysterau yn llawn. Ond, ar y cyfan, mae'r modd yma o weithredu yn welliant mawr ar yr hyn a fu yn y gorffennol.

I'll start, perhaps. Yes, on the whole, and they are certainly an improvement on what we had in the past. Of course, there are questions arising from the WESPs, and there are questions arising, from our point of view, in terms of the drafts that we've seen. We are aware that the Government has been working with the authorities to refine the plans and to improve them. But there is no doubt that we need a more certain structure, a clearer structure, to give guidance to schools and teachers, and we are looking forward in that regard to seeing what the content of the White Paper in the spring will be, with regard to the Welsh education Bill. There are weaknesses in the drafts that we have seen—a lack of treatment of data, a lack of treatment of data on a local level, a deficiency in terms of mapping. There are questions arising in terms of the ambition of authorities. And it's clear that there are specific issues in terms of developing the provision in our English-medium schools, and getting to grips with qualifications fully. But, on the whole, this way of acting is an improvement as compared to the previous situation.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Os cawn ni ofyn, Siôn, gawn ni ddod atoch chi? O, na, mae yna law i fyny gan Eithne.

Thank you very much. If we could go to Siôn. No, sorry, Eithne has her hand up.

Yes. I'd like to reinforce what's been said. We see that there is definitely an improvement in the outline of the new preparation for this provision, and some of the aims are aspirational, it has to be said. We do feel that there needs to be much more emphasis on supporting English-medium schools, in terms of developing the strategy, because that is where we will get to the million learners. Now, that is clearly in there, but from ASCL Cymru's viewpoint, it doesn't have sufficient emphasis in order to foreground that as part of the strategy towards actually delivering this aspirational plan.

I would also say that we do need to have further data around the teacher supply. We don't see individual subject data in the methodology of calculations, and we also don't see the specific numbers in terms of the ability of that workforce to teach Welsh. If we're going to actually build on this incredibly important agenda item, we need to have solid foundations that are based on evidence. If we don't have that planning, then we will struggle to actually get teachers in the classroom who can teach through the medium of Welsh, and that's a fairly obvious point. The question was: are they working? What my members tell me is that they are working in part, but it is not actually compelling and consistent right across the country. There are some excellent pieces of work that local authorities are doing at the moment to support schools in realising this plan, but they too are hard pressed, resources are limited, and therefore there is an issue also around resourcing this vital element. Thank you.

09:35

Diolch yn fawr iawn. A Siôn.

Thank you very much. And Siôn.

Ie. Heb ailadrodd y sylwadau dwi'n eu hategu, sydd wedi cael eu dweud yn barod, felly, rydyn ni'n gweld bod yna dair agwedd, mewn ffordd, i'r ateb: mae gennych chi, yn amlwg, amrywiaeth yn safon y WESPs eu hun, sydd yn creu amrediad o broblemau unigryw gwahanol. Ac mae gennych chi hefyd ysgolion, neu mae bron bob ysgol, allwch chi ei ddweud, yn cychwyn ar y daith yna o lefydd gwahanol, yn dibynnu ar lle maen nhw yn barod, felly. A'r drydedd agwedd, wrth gwrs, hefyd, ydy y gefnogaeth neu'r adnoddau dynol sydd eu hangen i fedru cyflwyno, neu helpu'r ysgol i gyflwyno, y WESP, datblygu'r daith wrth weithredu'r WESP yna. Er enghraifft, yr athrawon bro, yr athrawon oedd yn mynd rownd ysgolion yn cefnogi'r Gymraeg, felly—oherwydd y toriadau i'r grantiau yn 2015, mae yna ddirywiad wedi bod o gwmpas y wlad yn yr arlwy yna. Ac mi oedd hwnna, wrth gwrs, yn help mawr i ysgolion fedru delifro gofynion y WESP yn yr awdurdod. Felly, yn gyffredinol, fel mae Ioan wedi'i ddweud, maen nhw yn gweithio, maen nhw yn datblygu ymlaen. Ond, fel mae'r corff yma eisoes wedi sylwi, mae yna amrywiaeth yn y safon, a'r cyflymder ame ysgolion, efallai, ar y daith, ond dwi'n meddwl bod hynny oherwydd, efallai, y tri rheswm dwi wedi tynnu'ch sylw chi atyn nhw yn fanna felly.

Yes. Without rehearsing the comments that have already been made, which I agree with, we know that there are three aspects in response to this question: the WESPs themselves vary in quality, which gives you a range of unique problems. But you also have schools, or rather almost every school, beginning the journey from a different place, depending on where they are at that particular point. And the third aspect, of course, is the support and human resources that are required to help the school deliver the WESP, to develop their journey as they implement the WESP. For example, the peripatetic teachers who would go around schools supporting the Welsh language—because of cuts to grants in 2015, there has been a decline around the country in that provision. And of course, that was of great assistance to schools in delivering the requirements of the WESP within the authority. So, generally speaking, as Ioan has said, they do work and they are making progress. But, as you will have already noted, there is variation in the quality, and in the pace that schools undertake the journey, but I think that's because of the three reasons that I've just outlined there.

Diolch ichi am hynny. Dwi'n synnu at eich atebion, i fod yn hollol onest â chi. O'm profiad i, dwi ddim yn siŵr eu bod nhw yn gweithio. Rydych chi i gyd wedi sôn amboutu amrywiaeth yn safon y WESPs. Mae hynny'n awgrymu i fi fod yna broblem. Dylai ddim fod amrywiaeth ar draws y wlad. A dwi'n cofio, fel Gweinidog, yn gyrru rhai nôl achos doedden nhw ddim yn ddigon da, a ddylai'r Llywodraeth ddim fod mewn sefyllfa o wneud hynny. Dwi hefyd ddim yn credu bod yna ddigon o gydweithio rhwng awdurdodau. Os ydych chi'n edrych ar Flaenau Gwent, er enghraifft, mae gyda ni ysgol newydd yn agor yn Nhredegar, ysgol gynradd, ond ble mae'r cydweithio i sicrhau bod yna lwybr newydd ar gyfer ysgol uwchradd? Ac o'm profiad i, efallai—. Mr Jones, rydych chi'n dweud eu bod nhw'n well na beth oedd yn eu lle; buaswn i'n gobeithio am fwy na hynny os ydyn ni'n mynd i gyrraedd y targed o filiwn o siaradwyr yn y wlad yma. So, gaf i ofyn ichi fynd nôl at eich atebion chi a dweud ble mae cryfder y WESPs a beth yw gwendidau y WESPs, fel maen nhw?

Thank you for those responses. I'm surprised at your responses, to be honest. From my experience, I'm not sure whether they are working. You've all talked about the varied quality of the WESPs. That suggests to me that there is a problem. There shouldn't be that variation across the country. And I remember, as the Minister, sending some back because they weren't good enough, and the Government shouldn't be in that situation. I don't think that there's enough collaboration between authorities. If you look at Blaenau Gwent for example, we have a new school opening in Tredegar, a primary school, but where is the collaboration to ensure that there is a new path to a secondary school? And from my experience, perhaps—. Mr Jones, you say that they are better than what was previously in place, but I would hope for more than that if we're going to reach that target of a million Welsh speakers in this country. So, may I ask you to go back to your responses and tell us where the strengths are with regard to the WESPs, and what the weaknesses are?

Reit. Ocê. Mae'n rhaid ifi ddweud, rydyn ni'n cydweithio'n agos â'r awdurdodau ar lefel leol, ac mae yna ysbryd amlwg yna i lwyddo ac i symud addysg Gymraeg yn benodol yn ei blaen.

Right. Okay. I have to say that there's close collaboration with the local authorities and there is a clear desire to succeed and to move Welsh-medium education specifically forward.

Ond rydyn ni'n gwybod dydy hynny ddim yn wir ym mhobman.

But we know that's not the case everywhere.

Rydyn ni'n ymwybodol nad ydy'n wir ym mhobman. Rydyn ni hefyd yn ymwybodol mai dim ond drafftiau rydyn ni wedi'u gweld, i bob pwrpas, a dwi ddim yn siŵr beth ydy'r trafodaethau sy'n digwydd hefo'r Llywodraeth wedi hynny. Ac mae gennyn ni sefyllfa, wrth gwrs, lle—. Allwn ni ddim beirniadu yr hyn sydd wedi digwydd. Dwi'n deall bod y Gweinidog wedi derbyn pob un o'r WESPs yma—

We're aware that that's not the case everywhere. We're also aware that we've only seen drafts, to all intents and purposes, and I'm not sure what discussions are ongoing with the Government. And we do have a situation, of course, where—. We can't criticise what has happened. I understand that the Minister has accepted all of these WESPs—

—felly dwi'n cymryd eu bod nhw yn edrych i weld bod yr uchelgais a'r mapio yna'n glir. Rydych chi'n gofyn i mi am wendidau. Yn gyffredinol, mae yna wendidau o ran natur y data sy'n cael eu cyflwyno ynddyn nhw. Yn aml iawn—neu mewn rhai awdurdodau, er enghraifft—mae yna bwyslais ar yr hyn maen nhw'n gobeithio ei wneud. Dydy'r cynllunio ddim digon clir yn hynny o beth. Mae yna ddiffyg data a diffyg mapio ar lefel lleol. Rydych chi wedi sôn am Flaenau Gwent yn fanna. Dydw i ddim yn adnabod Blaenau Gwent cystal â hynny, mae gen i ofn. Dwi wedi chwarae rygbi yna sawl gwaith, ond—

—so I assume that they are clear on the ambitions and the mapping. Now, you asked me about the weaknesses. Well, generally speaking, there are weaknesses in terms of the nature of the data presented. Very often—or rather in some authorities, perhaps—there is an emphasis on what they hope to deliver. The planning isn't sufficiently clear in that regard. There is a lack of data and mapping at a local level. You mentioned Blaenau Gwent there. I'm not that familiar with Blaenau Gwent, I'm afraid. I've played rugby there a number of times—

09:40

Gobeithio eich bod chi wedi colli.

I hope you lost. 

[Chwerthin.] Ond beth sydd gennym ni ydy'r sefyllfa yma lle, o fewn siroedd, mae yna ysgolion amrywiol, ac, ar lefel lleol, dydy'r mapio yna ddim yn digwydd o ran y WESPs, ac mae hynny'n bryder oherwydd mae yna wendidau mawr mewn rhai ardaloedd o sir i sir. Felly, mae angen mireinio hynny, yn sicr.

Mae rhai WESPs, dydyn nhw ddim yn ddigon uchelgeisiol. Mae yna rai lle maen nhw'n cyfeirio at y targedau mwyaf heriol, ac mae gennych chi sefyllfa wedyn lle does yna ddim blaengynllunio manwl iawn yn digwydd er mwyn targedu'r targedau uchaf. Dwi yn gweld gwendidau mawr yn ddaearyddol hefyd. Mae yna wendidau mawr o ran symud agweddau ar y WESPs ymlaen. Fe wnaf i gyffredinoli gan ddweud, yn y gorllewin, does yna ddim ystyriaeth lawn yn cael ei roi o ehangu'r ddarpariaeth o ran cymwysterau yn y Gymraeg. Yn y dwyrain, rydyn ni wedi sôn amdano fo eisoes: mae yna dueddiad i feddwl, 'Rydyn ni'n darparu addysg Gymraeg. Rydyn ni'n agor ysgol newydd cyfrwng Cymraeg', ac mae yna anwybyddu wedi bod, o'r hyn rydyn ni wedi'i weld mewn sawl awdurdod, o'r angen i ddatblygu'r Gymraeg o fewn y sector cyfrwng Saesneg. Fel mae Eithne eisoes wedi sôn, dyna lle rydyn ni am gyrraedd y filiwn o siaradwyr. Mae yna gwestiwn yna wedyn, os ydych chi'n gofyn i mi yn bersonol, ydy gofynion y Llywodraeth a gofynion y WESPs yn ddigon radical. Dwi ddim yn gweld bod yr hyn sydd gennym ni, os sôn am dargedau ydyn ni, yn mynd i fod yn ddigon i gael miliwn o siaradwyr. Dydy o ddim yn ddigon. Mae'n rhaid—

[Laughter.] But what we have is a situation within counties where there are different schools, and, at a local level, that mapping isn't happening in relation to the WESPs, and that is a concern because there are major weaknesses in some areas from one county to another. So, we need to refine that, most certainly. 

Now, some WESPs are not sufficiently ambitious. There are some that refer to the most challenging targets, and then you have a situation where there is no detailed forward planning taking place in order to target those highest targets. I also see some geographical deficiencies. There is a problem in terms of changing attitudes towards the WESPs. I'll generalise in referring to the west of Wales and saying there is no focus on expanding qualifications through the medium of Welsh. In the east, there is a tendency to think, 'We are providing Welsh-medium education. We're opening a new Welsh-medium school', but, from what we've seen within a number of authorities, they've ignored the need to develop the Welsh language within the English-medium sector. As Eithne has already mentioned, that's where we'll reach a million Welsh speakers. If you're asking me personally, I would ask whether the requirements of the WESPs and what the Government wants to see are radical enough. I don't see the targets being sufficient to reach a million Welsh speakers. It's not sufficient. We need to—

Wel, dyw'r WESPs ddim yn gweithio, then. Os ydyn nhw'n ffordd o gyrraedd, o'n galluogi ni i gyrraedd, y targed o filiwn o siaradwyr, ac rydych chi'n dweud dydyn nhw ddim yn ddigon radical—a fuaswn i ddim yn anghytuno gyda hynny, gyda llaw—ond, os dyna yw eich barn chi, mae'n amlwg i mi dyw'r WESPs ddim yn ffit.

So, the WESPs don't work, then. If they're supposed to be a means of enabling us to reach that target of a million Welsh speakers, and you tell us that they're not radical enough—and I wouldn't disagree with that, by the way—but, if that is your view, then it's clear to me that the WESPs aren't fit for purpose. 

Mae yna ddau ogwydd i hyn, wrth gwrs: mae'r ochr wleidyddol—ac mae angen inni fod yn ofalus iawn o sut rydyn ni'n troedio yn hyn. Rydych chi, dwi'n credu, o'r un farn â ni am sawl agwedd o hyn. Y broblem ydy rydyn ni'n sôn am lefel awdurdod lleol. Mae yna un awdurdod, dwi'n ymwybodol, yn y de-orllewin, sy'n mapio pob ysgol yn unigol, ac maen nhw'n dechrau trafod y llwybr ymhen 10 mlynedd. Efallai fod yr awdurdod yna'n ffodus bod yna weithlu yna sy'n medru'r Gymraeg ac yn gallu symud ymlaen, ond, inni gyflawni miliwn o siaradwyr, mae'n rhaid i'r arweiniad ddod yn ganolog. Mae'n rhaid i'r Llywodraeth gynllunio ar lefel cenedlaethol. Felly, mae hwnnw'n gwestiwn gwahanol, dwi'n meddwl, i sut mae'r awdurdodau'n ymateb. Hynny ydy, mae cynllunio'r gweithlu'n bryder mawr i ni. Mae yna wendidau ar hyn o bryd. Mae yna gaps yn y ddarpariaeth. Mae yna rai pynciau cyfrwng Cymraeg yn enwedig yn ddiffygiol. Mae athrawon Cymraeg yn issue mawr—

Well, there are two sides to this, of course: there is the political side—and we have to be very cautious in that regard. I believe that you are of the same view as me on many aspects of this. The problem is that we're talking about the local authority level here. There is one authority that I'm aware of in the south-west that maps every individual school, and they're starting to discuss the pathway in 10 years' time. That authority is fortunate, perhaps, that they have a workforce that is Welsh-speaking and they can make that progress, but, if we are to deliver a million Welsh speakers, then the leadership has to come from the centre. The Government has to plan at a national level. That's a different question, I suppose, to how the local authorities are responding. Workforce planning is a huge concern of ours. There are deficiencies at the moment. There are gaps in the provision. There are some Welsh-medium subjects that are deficient. The availability of Welsh-speaking teachers is also an issue—

Dwi'n gwerthfawrogi bod hwn yn bwynt pwysig iawn, ond dwi eisiau clywed gan dystion eraill, ac mae gennym ni amryw o gwestiynau. Ond diolch yn fawr iawn. Roedd hwnna'n bwysig i fynd ar ei ôl. Gaf i ofyn a oedd yna unrhyw bwyntiau ychwanegol roedd unrhyw un eisiau eu hychwanegu o'r tystion? Siôn.

I appreciate that this is a very important point, but I want to hear from other witnesses, and we have a range of questions to ask. But thank you very much. It was very important to discuss that. May I ask whether there are any other points the witnesses would want to make? Siôn.

Dau beth, mewn ffordd. Hynny ydy, os mai'r farn yw dyw'r WESPs ddim yn gweithio, mae yna ddau agwedd iddo fo: un ai bod y WESPs eu hunain yn ddiffygiol, fel mae'r drafftiau sy'n cyrraedd y Llywodraeth yn awgrymu eu bod nhw, neu fod yr isadeiledd yn yr awdurdod ar gyfer delifro beth mae'r WESPs, neu'r isadeiledd yn yr ysgol, ei angen i ddelifro'r WESPs hefyd yn ddiffygiol. Felly, mae angen cyfarch y ddwy broblem yna. Un o'r problemau sydd gennych chi efallai fuasai'r pwyllgor angen ei hystyried ydy bod gennych chi'r ffaith bod LMS yn golygu bod gennych chi lywodraethwyr mewn ysgolion ac, wrth gwrs, mai nhw sy'n teyrnasu yng nghyd-destun beth mae'r ysgol yn ei fabwysiadu i'w wneud ac yn y blaen. Felly, os oes yna ryw fath o arafwch, ddywedwn ni, yn natblygiad neu'r cyflymder mae'r WESPs yn cael ei ddatblygu sydd ddim yn ddigonol i fedru cyrraedd y targed, efallai fydd yn rhaid edrych ar fireinio sut mae y gorchymyn neu'r gorchmynion yma gan yr awdurdodau yn gallu cael eu mabwysiadu gan yr ysgolion heb orfod cael eu hidlo, os liciwch chi, drwy'r corff llywodraethol. Rŵan, dwi ddim yn cyffredinoli yn y fan yna—mae gennym ni anecdotau bod hynny'n gallu bod yn barrier i'r WESPs yma'n cael ei fabwysiadu a'i ddelifro'n addas.

Well, two things. If the view is that the WESPs aren't working, there are two aspects to that: either that the WESPs themselves are deficient, as the drafts that are reaching the Government would suggest, or that the infrastructure within the authorities, or indeed the schools, required to deliver the WESPs, is also deficient. So, we need to meet those two problems. One issue that the committee might want to consider is the fact that the local management of schools means that you have school governors and they control the context in terms of what the school adopts and so on. So, if there is a slowness of pace, if you will, in the development or the speed at which the WESPs are developed that is insufficient to meet the target, perhaps we need to look at refining how these demands from the authorities can be adopted by the schools without being filtered, if you will, through the governing body. Now, I'm not generalising there—we have anecdotal evidence that that can be a barrier for these WESPs being adopted and delivered appropriately.

09:45

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Unrhyw beth i'w ychwanegu, Eithne?

Thank you. Anything to add, Eithne?

My view would be that I don't think any of us have said that this is perfect. We've said that there are aspirations set out, but there are also—. It's a patchy picture that we have across the country. I would agree that we've got some local authorities doing things very well with a very keen eye on exactly what's going on, and others not so. And that's not necessarily a criticism of local authorities, because we've got issues of resource, we have got issues around workforce planning, we've got issues around the infrastructure. But what we probably—. I think what the question brings us in the direction of is that there needs to be a more coherent national strategy that is outlining, in some detail, which we don't necessarily have, precisely how we get to the targets that are set down. One such example that I will give is trainee teachers. We're falling far short in terms of those trainee teachers coming into the profession who can teach through the medium of Welsh. But, if you look at the plan, it doesn't actually tell us how we plug that gap. So, we need to have the specifics in order to reach these aspirational targets, and that needs to be driven from the centre. Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Alun, oes gennych chi gwestiwn cryno i gloi?

Thank you very much. Alun, do you have a further quick question?

Jest un ychwanegol. Mae'n swnio i fi, ac mae'r tri ohonoch chi wedi dweud, fod angen inni genedlaetholi'r WESPs a chynllunio yn fwy manwl o'r canol.

Just a quick question. It sounds to me that the three of you have said that we need to nationalise the WESPs and more detailed planning centrally.

Fuaswn i ddim yn anghytuno efo hynny. Mae’n bosib bod angen cyflwyno syniadau ychydig mwy radical hefyd o ran darpariaeth yn y cyfnod sylfaen, drwy Gymru, ymhob ysgol.

I wouldn't disagree with that. I think perhaps we do need to also be a little more radical in the provision in the foundation phase throughout Wales.

Ond all hynny ddim digwydd ar lefel lleol.

But that can't happen at a local level.

Diolch. Unrhyw bwyntiau ychwanegol? Siôn.  

Thank you. Any additional points? Siôn.  

Ie, os ydych chi eisiau cael gwared o'r amrediad eang sydd yn y wlad, os ydych chi eisiau sicrhau bod yna isadeiledd addas neu adnoddau addas, efallai fydd yn rhaid ichi ganoli.

Yes, if you want to get rid of that wide range of provision across the nation, if you want to ensure that there are adequate resources and infrastructure, perhaps you do need to centralise.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Gawn ni symud ymlaen, felly, at gwestiynau gan Tom Giffard?

Thank you. May we move on to questions from Tom Giffard?

Dioch, Heledd. The Minister for Education and Welsh Language said that

‘plans to grow Welsh-medium education over the next 10 years are as ambitious as they can be’.

Is he right?

Mae cwestiwn yn dod, yn codi, o beth rydym ni'n ei ystyried yn addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, ac, fel dwi newydd sôn, efallai fod angen ystyried ychydig yn fwy radical o hyn a'n bod ni’n edrych ar y ddarpariaeth cyfnod sylfaen ymhob ysgol. Ar un llaw, gallwn ni ddweud yn sicr, 'Ie, mae darpariaeth addysg Gymraeg, mae'n tyfu. Mae'n ateb y galw yn y rhan fwyaf o lefydd'—nid ymhob lle, ac mae'n amrywio weithiau o le i le. Ond dwi ddim yn meddwl mai addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg ydy'r ateb o ran strategaeth y Llywodraeth. Rydym ni wedi sôn o'r blaen—mae pob un ohonom ni y bore yma wedi nodi mai yn yr addysg gyfrwng Saesneg y mae angen i ni roi sylw. Ond mae'n rhaid inni sicrhau bod darpariaeth addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg yn addysg sydd yn gallu cynnal ac yn gallu datblygu unigolion o pan fyddan nhw'n dair i pan fyddan nhw'n 18, ac mae yna bryder, wrth gwrs, o ran datblygu cymwysterau a'r hyn sydd ar gael i'r rheini, ôl-16 yn sicr, o ran addysg bellach, a dwi'n meddwl bod hwn tu hwnt i WESPs ac ati. Felly, mae yna le i ddatblygu addysg Gymraeg, mae yna rai awdurdodau yn well na'i gilydd, yn amlwg, ond, ar y cyfan, mae angen i'r ffocws, o ran strategaeth, gyrraedd llefydd eraill.

Well, a question arises of what we consider to be Welsh-medium education, and, as I've just mentioned, perhaps we need to think a little more radically in this area and that we do look at the foundation phase provision in all schools. On the one hand, we could say, 'Well, yes, the provision of Welsh-medium education is growing. It is meeting demand in most places'—not everywhere, and it does vary from place to place. But I don't think that Welsh-medium education is the solution in terms of the Government's strategy. Every one of us has mentioned this morning that it's in the English-medium sector that we need to make progress. But we must ensure that the provision of Welsh-medium education is an education that can develop individuals from the age of three to the age of 18, and, of course, there is a concern about the development of qualifications and what's available, certainly in the post-16 sector, in terms of further education, and I know that this is beyond the scope of WESPs. So, there is room to develop Welsh-medium education, there are some authorities doing better than others, but, generally speaking, the focus, in terms of the strategy, needs to also look elsewhere.

Diolch. Eithne, ydych chi eisiau dod i mewn?

Thank you. Eithne, do you want to come in?

09:50

Yes. Just to add to that, what I would say is setting a target doesn't get you anywhere; it's about what happens in order to make sure that you're progressing towards that. And I think there are very worthy ambitions here, but I'm going to go back to the comment that was made about the qualification system and the curriculum that will be on offer for our learners. That curriculum really has to be rich, engaging, and it has to allow youngsters to use language transactionally, and it needs to be, from the very earliest, phased through. And I think that is critical in order that learners are switched on to learning Welsh rather it being simply them being pushed through a continuum. I'd be very interested to see what the Curriculum for Wales Welsh offer comes through as, because I think that framework really has to be engaging for our learners and not a stultifying experience. I'm really hoping that that's what that looks like when it comes through the other side. 

The other point I will make, and will go back to, is initial teacher education. Those teachers who are coming into Wales need to have an offer as part of their training, so that they can actually develop language from whatever their starting place is. Whether they have no Welsh language at all, or they're already fluent, there needs to be an offer given to them, so that they, within the network of schools, have got timely and regular contact in terms of developing and growing their Welsh language skills. 

The third thing I will say is in terms of the workforce. If we want our workforce—and I'm going back to the English-medium schools because those are where we'll get the numbers—then time needs to be allocated for the workforce, and time equals money; time equals resource. To learn a language, it's immersion if you're starting from scratch, or even if you've got some knowledge, or you need to have regular inputs, and to do that during the working day is clearly going to be a challenge for schools to manage. So, funding is required, resource is required, and high-quality professional learning. 

So, the target's fine, but we need to actually look and drill down at how we get to those targets to actually make sure that they're met. Thank you. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Siôn. 

Thank you very much. Siôn.

Ie, is-adeiledd unwaith eto, wrth gwrs. Mae'r targed yn ei le, ac mae modd cael y drafodaeth os ydy o'n heriol ai peidio, neu os ydy'r strategaeth yn heriol, ond, heb yr is-adeiledd yn ei le, sy'n medru cefnogi'r strategaeth, yna dydy o ddim yn mynd i weithio. Ac mae Eithne wedi sôn amdano fo yn barod—bydd rhaid rhoi sylw i staff yn y cyd-destun fel y mae ar y funud. Mae sgiliau ieithyddol staff ein gwlad ni yn amrediad ac yn amrywiol anferth, ac mae'n rhaid rhoi'r sylw a'r adnoddau i'r staff hynny, ac i'r ysgolion ac i'r awdurdodau hynny lle mae angen y mwyaf o waith o ran datblygu sgiliau addysgu drwy'r Gymraeg. 

Mae gennych chi'r un un math o heriau is-adeiledd—ac mi wnes i gyffwrdd ar hyn ynghynt—efo'r athrawon bro, yr athrawon teithiol Cymraeg, sydd yn mynd o gwmpas yr ysgolion yn y rhan fwyaf o lefydd ac yn cefnogi'r cynllun ac yn sicrhau bod yr ysgol yn ei ddelifro fo yn unol â beth mae'r awdurdod yn ei ofyn. Heb hwnna wrth gwrs, mae'r ysgolion yn dueddol o orfod 'ail-inventio' yr olwyn ar eu pen eu hunain a gweithio drwy hynny. Felly, mae angen yr is-adeiledd, yr infrastructure, i fod yn ei le i chi fedru gweld y dymuniadau heriol yma yn cael eu gwireddu yn yr amser sydd gennym ni i wneud hynny. Ac, yn anffodus, diwedd y gân yw'r geiniog yn yr achos yma. 

Yes, infrastructure once again. The target is in place, and we can have a discussion on whether it is challenging or not, and whether the strategy itself is challenging, but without the infrastructure in place that is going to support the strategy, then it isn't going to succeed. Eithne has mentioned already that we have to give due attention to staff in the context as it is at present. The language skills amongst staff in our country vary, and there is that huge range, and we need to focus on and allocate resources to those staff, the schools and those authorities where the most work is needed to develop the skills of those teaching through the medium of Welsh. 

You have the same challenges with regard to infrastructure—and I touched on this earlier—with regard to athrawon bro, those peripatetic Welsh teachers who go around schools in most places and support the plan and ensure that the school delivers it in accordance with the requirements of the authority. Without that provision, schools tend to reinvent the wheel alone and work in that way. So, the infrastructure needs to be in place so that you can see these challenging aspirations being achieved within the time allocated. And, unfortunately, it all comes down to money, doesn't it, in this case. 

Thanks. One further question. I just wanted to ask about local authorities specifically and the implementation of WESPs on a local level. I particularly want to follow up something that Siôn said earlier, where he talked about—and I wrote it down, with the help of the translation—that governors controlled the contexts of what schools adopt. I just wonder whether you can perhaps expand on that and what the challenges are, and perhaps how we could overcome that. 

Local management of schools—LMS.

Wrth gwrs, mae ysgolion sy'n cael eu cynnal gan yr awdurdod yn cael eu rhedeg gan lywodraethwyr, ac os ydy'r awdurdod lleol, er enghraifft, yn cyflwyno cynllun neu unrhyw fath o strategaeth neu gynllun, mae'n rhaid i'r cynllun yna yn gyntaf gael ei fabwysiadu gan y corff llywodraethol, a nhw wedyn sy'n gyfrifol am ei weithredu fo. Mae yna hawl gan y llywodraethwyr i addasu, i finiogi neu i ddiwygio unrhyw bolisi neu gynllun sy'n dod ger eu bron nhw. O ran safbwynt yr awdurdod, maen nhw'n hyd braich, mewn ffordd, yn yr achos yma o'r WESP. Felly, efallai bod y WESP yn brilliant ac yn addas, ond, wrth ri yrru fo allan i'r ysgolion, maen nhw'n ddibynnol iawn ar yr ysgol yn mabwysiadu'r WESP fel ag y mae o, heb newidiadau, ac maen nhw'n ddibynnol iawn ar yr ysgol yn gweithredu'r WESP yn unol ag ysbryd y WESP, felly.

Yma ac acw mae hyn yn digwydd, ond mae gennym ni dystiolaeth fel undeb o ysgolion yn rhoi rhwystrau yn eu lle, os dywedwn ni—yn rhoi rhwystrau i'r WESPs yma—oherwydd efallai fod y corff llywodraethu ddim yn cytuno neu beth bynnag. Dwi ddim yn cyffredinoli o gwbl, ond mae o yn enghraifft sydd gennym ni o le mae'r WESP wedi cael ei lastwreiddio, ddywedwn ni, erbyn iddo gyrraedd yr ysgol, oherwydd dylanwad y llywodraethwyr.

Of course, maintained schools are run by a governing body, and if a local authority, for example, brings forward any sort of plan or strategy, then that first of all has to be adopted by the governing body, and they are then responsible for its implementation. The governors have a right to adapt, amend or revise any policy that comes before them. From an authority's perspective, they are at an arm's length in a way, and in this case from the WESP. So, the WESP might well be brilliant and fit for purpose, but, in sending it out to schools, they are highly reliant on the school adopting the WESP as it is without amendment, and they are reliant on the schools implementing the WESP in accordance with the spirit of that WESP.

This only happens here and there, but we do have evidence as a union of schools putting barriers in place in terms of the implementation of the WESPs, because the governing body might not agree with it or whatever the case may be. I'm not generalising here at all, but it is an anecdotal example of where the WESP has been diluted, let's say, by the time it gets to the school, because of the influence of governors.

09:55

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Ioan, neu Eithne, oes gennych chi unrhyw beth i'w ychwanegu, yn gryno?

Thank you very much. Ioan, or Eithne, do you have anything to add, briefly?

Jest i nodi, mewn ffordd, mai dyma un o'r prif broblemau o ran ceisio edrych ar y pethau yma mewn sefyllfa leol, a dyma'r pwynt rŷn ni wedi sôn amdano eisoes, sef fod angen edrych ar bethau ar lefel cenedlaethol, a disgwyliad cenedlaethol. Felly, does yna ddim yr un trafferthion gwleidyddol ag sydd gan awdurdodau lleol a hefyd o ran y llywodraethwyr hefyd. Gogwydd cenedlaethol sydd eisiau yn hyn o beth.

Just to note that, in a way, this is one of the main problems as regards looking at matters in a local context, and we've already spoken about this national level at which we need to be considering these issues, and the national expectation. Therefore, we don't have the same political difficulties as local authorities and governors. It's this national overview that's required.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Eithne.

Thank you very much. Eithne.

I don't have anecdotal evidence for that, but that's not to say it doesn't exist. What I would say is that maybe this comes down to training and it comes down to those communication lines in order to make sure that governors, local authorities and schools are all on the same page with this particular agenda. So that, I think, I would point the committee to. Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Hefin David, os cawn ni droi at eich cwestiynau chi, os gwelwch yn dda.

Thank you very much. Hefin David, if we could turn to your questions, please.

A allaf i ofyn am y cylch 10 blynedd? Pa mor ddigonol yw'r fframwaith atebolrwydd a monitro i sicrhau bod awdurdodau lleol yn cyflawni eu huchelgeisiau a'u targedau cynlluniau strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg yn llwyddiannus i gefnogi Cymraeg 2050?

Could I ask about the 10-year WESP cycle? How adequate is the accountability and monitoring framework in ensuring that local authorities successfully deliver their WESP ambitions and targets to support Cymraeg 2050?

Gawn ni ddechrau efo Eithne, y tro yma?

If we could perhaps start with Eithne, this time.

This was a question that I had asked just recently around the WESPs and was assured that every two years there would be some monitoring of the WESP to make sure that that is aligned to the targets that are set out. Welsh Government expressed a confidence that, despite the fact that it's a 10-year plan, it certainly wouldn't be left for 10 years before there would be any monitoring or scrutiny, because clearly that would not be sensible. That was the assurance I was given, so I've got no reason to doubt that. Thank you.

Ie, yr un peth, mewn ffordd. Hynny ydy, o ran cylch 10 mlynedd, fel mae Eithne wedi dweud, dŷch chi ddim yn ei adael o am 10 mlynedd ac wedyn mynd i weld a ydy o wedi datblygu. Mae'n mynd yn ôl i'r un un sylwad o'r blaen ar isadeiledd. Mae angen rhyw fath o strwythur arolygu ac adolygu sydd yn tician drosodd, mewn ffordd, dros y cyfnod yma, i sicrhau bod yr ysgolion a bod yr awdurdodau, yn y lle lle maen nhw i fod ar y daith, buasai rhywun yn disgwyl, gan dderbyn bod ysgolion ac awdurdodau yn cychwyn y daith mewn llefydd gwahanol—cymharwch Conwy efo Torfaen, er enghraifft. Ond dŷch chi eisiau rhyw fath o strwythur—nid 'arolygu'; mae hwnnw'n air am 'inspections'—rhyw fath o drefn sydd yn sicrhau bod yna ryw fath o oruchwyliaeth yna, yn sicrhau bod yr injan yn troi.

Yes, it's the same, in a way. With the 10-year cycle, as Eithne said, you don't leave it for 10 years and then go to see whether it's developed. It goes back to the comments I've already made in terms of infrastructure. We need some kind of inspection and review structure that ticks over during this period of 10 years to ensure that the schools and the authorities are where they are meant to be on the journey, accepting that schools and authorities start the journey in different places—compare Conwy with Torfaen, for example. But you do need some structure—not an inspection regime—some kind of system that ensures that there is that overview to ensure that the engine is turning.

10:00

Jest dau bwynt cyflym iawn. Ydy dwy flynedd yn ddigon buan neu oes angen ei wneud cyn diwedd dwy flynedd? Mae'n bwynt tebyg iawn i'r hyn a wnaeth Siôn. A dwi'n meddwl bod eraill sydd wedi gyrru tystiolaeth i'r pwyllgor yma wedi sôn bod angen edrych ar gynlluniau nid mewn cylch o 10 mlynedd yn unig, ond efallai fod angen ystyried cynlluniau o fewn pum mlynedd, o fewn 10 mlynedd, o fewn 20 mlynedd. Buaswn i'n cytuno efo'r sylwadau hynny sydd wedi cael eu cyflwyno. 

Just two quick points. I would ask whether two years is sufficiently early. Does it need to happen earlier? It's a similar point to Siôn's point. I think others who have provided evidence to this committee have mentioned that we need to look at plans not just in a 10-year cycle and that we might need to consider the plans within five years, 10 years, 20 years. I would agree with those comments that have been made. 

A yw’r cynlluniau strategol 10 mlynedd yn gwneud cysylltiadau digonol â pholisïau addysgol strategol eraill, er enghraifft y fframwaith gwella ysgolion a’r cwricwlwm newydd i Gymru?

Do the 10-year WESPs make sufficient links with other strategic educational policies, for example the revised school improvement framework and the new curriculum for Wales?

Fe wnawn ni fynd fel arall y tro yma. Ioan, wyt ti eisiau mynd yn gyntaf?

We will ask Ioan to go first on this one. 

Dwi'n meddwl bod yna le i edrych bob 10 mlynedd. Mae yna gysylltiadau reit amlwg yn cael eu gwneud gan y Llywodraeth, a dwi'n meddwl bod cynlluniau'r Llywodraeth yn dod o safbwynt ymgeisio i wella'r sefyllfa. Mae rhoi 10 mlynedd yn ei le yn gweithio, ond mae angen ystyried bod angen gwneud y pethau yma dros gyfnod, yn hytrach na mewn chunks o 10 mlynedd yn unig.

I think that there is scope to look every 10 years. There are quite clear connections made by the Government, and I think that the Government plans are intended to improve the situation. The 10-year cycle is in place and is working, but we do need to consider doing these things over a period of time, rather than just in chunks of 10 years.

Yn sicr, mi fuasai goruchwyliaeth genedlaethol yn galluogi'r Llywodraeth, drwy'r trosolwg yma, i fedru gweld lle yn y wlad mae angen yr adnoddau fwyaf. Ac yng nghyd-destun y cwestiwn, nid yn unig bydd ysgolion ac awdurdodau mewn gwahanol lefydd ar y daith yma, mae'n wir hefyd o ran y polisïau eraill sydd hefyd yn cael eu datblygu. Felly, mi allwch chi gael sefyllfa lle nad yw awdurdod neu ysgol, oherwydd blaenoriaethau, efallai, yn blaenoriaethu'r WESPs yma oherwydd bod ganddyn nhw gymaint o waith arall i'w wneud efo, efallai, diffyg yn y strategaethau eraill. Felly, drwy gael goruchwyliaeth genedlaethol, mi fedrai'r Llywodraeth dargedu'r ardaloedd sydd angen y cymorth fwyaf, boed drwy athrawon bro neu beth bynnag, i sicrhau nad yw'r cynllun yma rydyn ni'n ei drafod heddiw yn cael ei danseilio oherwydd bod sylw staff a chyllid yn cael eu rhoi i'r strategaethau eraill—yr ysgol yna neu yr awdurdod yna sydd angen sylw ei hun.  

Well, certainly, that national overview would enable the Government to see where in the nation the resources are most needed. And in the context of the question that you asked, not only will schools and authorities be in different places on this journey, that is also true with regard to the other policies that you mentioned that are being developed. So, you could have a situation where an authority or a school, because of different priorities, aren't prioritising these WESPs because they have so much other work to do in dealing with a lack or deficiency in terms of other strategies. By having that national overview, the Government could target those areas that need the support, be that with peripatetic teachers or whatever else, to ensure that this plan that we are discussing here today isn't undermined because the attention of staff and funding is being allocated to the other strategies that you mentioned—so, a particular school or authority that needs attention.

I think it really is very good question indeed as to how this coheres with other reforms that are within the system. I would say, with the additional learning needs Bill, I think that's one where there does need to be a closer tie between the Welsh language strategic plan and the aspirations to get to 2050 and what the workforce is actually being developed for in terms of additional learning needs and teaching children who have got specific learning needs. I think there needs to be a lot more work done in that particular area. 

The other issue I would point to is the recovery planning following COVID. We have got learners who may be from English-medium families but who have joined Welsh-medium schools and they have lost quite a lot of time during that period. So, they may have lost their confidence in speaking the Welsh language. I know Welsh Government is keen to pursue that, and their recovery plans look at that, but again I think we need to see more of that within the WESPs so that we're actually really getting under the skin of some learners who may have taken a few steps back in terms of their ability to use Welsh or enter a Welsh-medium school if they are in an English-medium family. 

And the final thing I will go back to again, and I know I've stated it in response to a previous question, is about the delivery of a really engaging curriculum that really has learners enjoy the Welsh language, and on an extra-curricular basis as well, and that the qualifications at the end of that should not be off-putting. This should not be a deterrent for learners to actually engage with this rich language. I won't mention anything that's happened in the summer because that will distract us from this particular discussion, but those would be my key points. Thank you.

10:05

Diolch. Unrhyw beth arall, Hefin? Na. Gawn ni symud ymlaen felly at gwestiynau Sioned Williams?

Thank you. Anything else, Hefin? No. Could we move on therefore to questions from Sioned Williams?

Diolch yn fawr. Bore da. Mae pob un ohonoch chi wedi cyffwrdd ar hyn yn barod mewn bron pob un o'ch atebion chi, sef pwysigrwydd datblygu'r ddarpariaeth Gymraeg o fewn y sector cyfrwng Saesneg. Rŷch chi wedi dweud bod yna issues penodol gydag e: rŷch chi wedi cyfeirio at ddiffyg adnoddau yn tanseilio hyn a bod yna ddim pwyslais digonol ar hyn yn y CSCAau. Felly, hoffwn i gael eich barn chi yn benodol ar sut mae'r CSCAau yn cyfrannu, a sut ddylen nhw gyfrannu, a datblygiad cyfrwng Cymraeg o fewn y sector cyfrwng Saesneg. Yw e'n ddigon clir yn y cynlluniau yn eich barn chi?

Thank you. Good morning. All of you have touched on this already in almost all of your responses, namely the importance of the development of Welsh-medium provision within the English-medium sector. You've said that there are particular issues with it: you've referred to a lack of resources undermining this and that there is not sufficient emphasis on this in the WESPs. So, I would like your views specifically on how the WESPs contribute, and how they should contribute, to the development of Welsh within the English-medium sector. Is it sufficiently clear within the WESPs in your view?

Gaf i droi at Siôn efallai yn gyntaf y tro yma?

Could we start with Siôn perhpas this time?

O ran y sefyllfa rydych chi'n ei disgrifio, rydych yn sôn am yr ysgolion sydd â'r mwyaf o daith i'w thrafaelio, ac felly, yn naturiol wrth gwrs, yn fanna y mae'r gefnogaeth a'r adnoddau angen eu targedu fwyaf. Mae'n ddeublyg: rydych chi'n edrych ar y staff, fel mae fy nghyfeillion wedi sôn yn barod; rydych chi'n sôn am ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg sydd angen datblygu dros y cyfnod tymor canol nesaf yma i fod yn ysgolion Cymraeg. Mae angen hyfforddiant; mae angen ariannu'r cyfleoedd i staff fedru ymgymryd â'r Gymraeg. Rhaid i'r Llywodraeth hefyd dderbyn efallai y bydd gennych chi staff sydd ddim yn dymuno hynny ac mae angen felly edrych ar adleoli ac yn y blaen, ond efallai bod hwnna'n fater mwy arbenigol yn hytrach na rhywbeth cyffredinol.

Ac wedyn o ran y gefnogaeth, dwi'n mynd yn ôl at yr athrawon bro yma dwi'n sôn amdanyn nhw bob munud, lle mae gennych chi athrawon teithiol sy’n cefnogi’r Gymraeg, sydd yn mynd i’r ysgolion sydd angen y mwyaf o gefnogaeth i roi'r gefnogaeth, ac sydd yn gallu targedu ac sy'n gallu gwneud y gwaith yma o graffu lleol i sicrhau bod y gefnogaeth yn mynd i’r ysgolion sydd angen y mwyaf o gefnogaeth. Felly, yr un hen stori ydy o, sef yr isadeiledd—mae angen miniogi hwnnw ar gyfer ysgolion sydd â'r mwyaf o daith.  

In terms of the situation that you describe, you're talking about the schools that have the furthest to travel on the journey and so, naturally of course, the support and resources need to be primarily targeted at those schools. It's a dual issue: you look at the staff, as my colleagues already mentioned; you're talking about English-medium schools that want to develop over this medium-term period into becoming Welsh-medium schools. You need to fund the opportunities for staff to be able to teach through the medium of Welsh. Perhaps you'll have to accept that there are staff who don't want to make that journey and perhaps you'd need to look at relocation and so on, but perhaps that might be a more specialist issue rather than a more general one.

And then in terms of the support, I go back to the athrawon bro who I've already mentioned, where you have peripatetic teachers who support the Welsh language and go to the schools that do need that support the most, to provide that targeted support and undertake that local scrutiny to ensure that the support does go to the schools that need that support most. So, it's the same old story; it comes down to that infrastructure once again—we need to refine that for those schools that have furthest to travel.

Diolch. Gaf i droi at Ioan nesaf?

Thank you. Could I turn to Ioan next?

Diolch. Yn amlwg, o’r ymatebion rydym wedi’u cael mewn rhai o'r CSCAau, nid yw’r gofynion ar gyfer y Gymraeg fel ail iaith, neu Gymraeg craidd—neu beth bynnag rydych chi eisiau ei alw fo—yn ddigonol. Mae yna anwybyddu wedi bod mewn sawl sir—sawl sir ar y ffin—o'r ddarpariaeth yn yr ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg. Gallwn i enwi un neu ddau i chi, ond dwi ddim eisiau enwi pobl mewn ffordd negyddol. Ond mae yna gwestiwn mawr gen i: a oes yna ddealltwriaeth o'r angen yna?

Dwi hefyd yn meddwl ei bod yn bryd inni osod nodau heriol o ran y Gymraeg fel ail iaith. Dwi'n deall bod nifer yma ar gontinwwm dysgu'r iaith, ond os gwnaf ofyn i chi: pe baech chi wedi cychwyn cael gwersi mewn iaith, a chithau'n bump neu chwe blwydd oed, ac erbyn yr amser rydych chi'n 16, dydych chi ddim wedi cyrraedd y sefyllfa lle gallwch chi sgwrsio o ddydd i ddydd—mae'n rhaid bod yna wendid mawr yn y system yn fanna. Dwi'n ofni efallai y bydd y cymwysterau newydd yn ailosod nodau nad ydynt yn ddigon heriol o ran yr iaith. Dwi'n sôn am gymwysterau, oherwydd i sawl athro, dyna ydy'r nod yn y pen draw, boed hynny'n gam neu'n gymwys. Felly, mae angen gosod nodau heriol yn 16 oed ac yna sicrhau bod yr isadeiledd yn ei le, bod yr adnoddau yn eu lle i gyrraedd sefyllfa lle mae pawb yng Nghymru yn hyfyw ddwyieithog. Dwi wedi gweld hynny mewn un neu ddau o WESPs, ac eto does yna ddim ystyriaeth o gwbl o sut maen nhw am wneud pawb yn ddwyieithog ar ba bynnag lefel ydy hynny. Felly, mae hwn yn rhywbeth sydd angen mynd i’r afael â fo o ddifrif. Dydy o ddim yn ddigonol o ran yr ymatebion rydym ni wedi'u gweld. Mae’n bosib bod y Llywodraeth wedi nodi hynny ac wedi gosod her bellach.

Mae'n gysylltiedig, wrth gwrs, â'r continwwm iaith a sut rydym yn categoreiddio ysgolion. Ar yr un llaw, dwi'n hynod siomedig bod yna lastwreiddio wedi digwydd o ran categoreiddio ysgolion, yn caniatáu i ysgolion dwyieithog benodi eu hunain yn ysgolion Cymraeg, er bod y ddarpariaeth ddim yn y Gymraeg. Ond ar y llaw arall, mae’r symud ymlaen yma, lle mae ysgolion yn gallu datblygu o fod yn ysgolion Saesneg i ysgolion Cymraeg yn y pen draw. Dwi yn gweld mewn rhai cynlluniau arbennig lle maen nhw’n sôn yn benodol bod yna dair ysgol yn mynd ar hyd y llwybr yna yn ystod y blynyddoedd sydd i ddod, ac mae hynny’n grêt, ond beth rydyn ni angen yn y fan yna, a rydyn ni’n dod yn ôl ato fo mewn ffordd: ydy’r Ddeddf addysg Gymraeg yma yn sicrhau bod yna arweiniad clir a disgwyliadau clir yn cael eu gosod yn y fan yna? Felly, mae’r CSCAau yn rhan o’r ddarpariaeth ac yn rhan o’r ffordd i osod agenda, ond mae'n rhaid i'r arweiniad a’r disgwyliadau ddod o’r canol yn y Ddeddf yma. Rydyn ni'n edrych ymlaen yn fawr i weld bydd sydd ganddyn nhw i'w ddweud yn y Papur Gwyn. Ond mae hwn yn bryder mawr. Felly, ie, dydyn nhw ddim yn ddigonol fel mae'n sefyll, yn amlwg, ac mae angen i ni gael arweiniad pellach. 

Thank you. Clearly, from the responses that we've had in some of the WESPs, the requirements for Welsh as a second language, or core Welsh—or however you want to describe it—are not sufficient. A number of counties, particularly on the border, have ignored the provision in the English-medium sector. I could name a few, but I don't want to name people in a negative way. But I do have a question as to whether there is an understanding of that need.

I also think that it's time for us to set challenging targets in terms of Welsh as a second language. I do understand that many here are on the language-learning continuum, but if I asked you whether you started having lessons in a language at five or six years old, and by the time you're 16, you haven't reached a position where you can have a simple conversation—there must be a serious weakness in that system. I do fear perhaps that the new qualifications will reset aims that aren't sufficiently challenging in terms of the language. I'm talking about qualifications, because for many teachers, that's the ultimate aim, rightly or wrongly. So, we need to set challenging targets for those at 16 and then ensure that the infrastructure is in place and that the resources are in place to reach a position where everyone in Wales is functionally bilingual. I see that in one or two WESPs, but there's no consideration at all as to how to make everyone bilingual in all of them. So, this is something that needs to be addressed in earnest. It isn't adequate in terms of the responses that we've seen. It's possible that the Government may have noted that and set more challenging targets.

It is related, of course, to the language continuum and how we categorise schools. On the one hand, I'm very disappointed that there's been some dilution in terms of the categorisation of schools to allow bilingual schools to describe themselves as Welsh-medium schools, although the provision isn't made available through the-medium of Welsh. But on the other hand, there's progress where schools can develop from being English-medium schools to Welsh-medium schools ultimately. I do see reference in some WESPS to where they mention that there would be three schools on that journey in coming years, and that's wonderful, but what we need there, and I’m coming back to this in a way: does this Welsh education Act ensure that there is clear guidance and clear expectations laid down? The WESPs are part of the provision, and are important in setting an agenda, but the leadership and the expectations must be set centrally in this education legislation, and I look forward very much to seeing what they have to say in the White Paper. But this is a huge concern. So, yes, they're not adequate as they stand, clearly, and we need further guidance.

10:10

Diolch. A gawn ni droi yn olaf at Eithne ?

Thank you. Can we turn finally to Eithne?

I don't really have a terrible lot to add to that, apart from the fact that it's absolutely clear that the English-medium schools are where we're going to get these targets hit. And it's not just hitting the target for the sake of hitting the target, it's hitting the target because it's important to the country. As far as ASCL Cymru members are concerned, some of the feedback they've given me is that some local authorities basically are ignoring the English-medium schools in terms of this particular agenda. That won't be deliberate; it will come back again to resource, it will come back again to infrastructure. Those schools in the most need are clearly the English-medium schools, but they will require the most resource, they will require the biggest input.

I know I keep coming back to the same point, but local authorities at the moment are absolutely strapped for cash. Many of them are struggling, and I think we need to recognise that. How we manage to support local authorities in supporting this agenda is a question, I guess, for Government level, and that isn't to point the finger at Government, because again, they're strapped for cash, too. I would say there are some quick wins that could happen, but they again will require time. That professional learning offer needs to be very high quality; it needs to be very compelling and it needs to be something that people really want to do. It needs to ensure that the language is used in a way that is transactional, that is modelled in schools, not just in a superficial way, but that somebody can at the end of a period of time of learning use the language in a way that they can understand what's being said and they can actually have even a basic conversation with someone.

It concerns me; in our qualifications system as it stands, if you have a 16-year-old who's got a C grade, for example, in Welsh second language, can they hold a conversation in Welsh? There has been a shift recently to try and really forward the oracy element of Welsh second language, which we would certainly approve of, and that I think is a good development. That really must be a very significant part of what these new qualifications are going to look like, and what the continuum looks like for a learner who is picking up Welsh and doesn't have it at home. They need to actually look at that framework and be able to work their way through it in a way that allows them to communicate. It sounds straightforward, but we all know it's complicated. Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. A gaf i jest roi rhybudd i bawb bod gennym ni chwarter awr ar ôl yn y sesiwn hon? Felly gaf i ofyn i'r cwestiynau a'r atebion fod yn gryno wrth i ni fynd ymlaen er mwyn trio cael drwy weddill y cwestiynau? Os caf i droi yn ôl at Sioned, os gwelwch yn dda.

Thank you very much. May I just inform you all that we have 15 minutes left in this session? So may I ask for the questions and responses to be succinct, please, as we continue, so that we can get through the rest of the questions? If we can go back to Sioned, please.

Diolch. Rŷch chi, Ioan, wedi ateb y peth yn rhannol, ond liciwn i jest efallai wybod barn y ddau dyst arall o ran y pryderon penodol am y categoreidio newydd a’r canllawiau. Hynny yw, fe wnaethoch chi sôn efallai y byddai'r canllawiau’n elwa o fod yn rhai statudol, ond hoffwn i glywed eich barn chi ar hynny. Hefyd, sut byddai hynny’n gwella pethau? Sut byddai cael y canllawiau yma'n rhai statudol yn gwella pethau? Felly, jest eich sylwadau chi ar y categoreiddio a'r canllawiau.

Thank you. You've answered this partly, but I'd just like to know the view of the other witnesses in terms of specific concerns about this new categorisation and the guidance. You said perhaps that the guidance would benefit from being statutory in nature, but I'd like to hear the other two witnesses' views on that. How would that improve things? How would having these guidelines statutory improve the situation? So, just your comments on the categorisation and the guidance, please

10:15

Gwnawn ni droi'n gyntaf at Eithne.

If we can turn to Eithne first.

The categorisation needs to be much more clearly outlined. Schools need to understand what is required of them. Again, this is a point I raised just recently and have been offered a meeting in order to discuss that framework and having some flesh on those bones. So, I think that is required. I wouldn't particularly go down the route of statutory requirement. We need hearts and minds to be won with this. However, what I would say is that I do have schools here saying they just don't know what is required of them to move along that continuum. The other thing we need to be very careful of is that if schools are moving categories, they are not leaving staff behind and that staff are not ending up unable to be employed in particular areas as a consequence of any moving of category. We need to be inclusive within this agenda item. Thank you.

Dwi'n meddwl ar y funud bod ysgolion yn diolch bod y categoreiddio yma'n anstatudol, oherwydd os buasai fo'n orfodol, oherwydd y byd ariannol a'r diffyg sydd ohoni, dwi'n meddwl y buasen nhw'n wirioneddol yn gwaredu. Ond, wrth gwrs, wedi dweud hynna, oherwydd eu bod nhw'n anstatudol, dydych chi ddim yn cael y llif yn yr ysgolion i symud ymlaen i wireddu a chyrraedd y dyhead pwysig yma. Felly, ar bob cyfrif, mi fydd eu gwneud nhw'n statudol yn rhoi mwy o bwysau, ddywedwn ni, ar ysgolion i sicrhau eu bod nhw'n cydymffurfio a bod yna ansawdd i'r WESPs, ond fedrwch chi ddim gwneud hynna mewn sefyllfa ynysig. Bydd yn rhaid ichi roi'r arian a'r gefnogaeth. Mae o i gyd yn dod i lawr unwaith eto i isadeiledd, gair dwi i'n ei iwsio'n aml iawn. Bydd yn rhaid ichi roi hwnna yn ei le pan ydych chi yn, ar yr un pryd, eu gwneud nhw'n statudol. Ar y funud, mae'r ysgolion yn gallu cael seibiant, yn arbennig pan does yna ddim arian na dim byd, i fedru gweld lle mae pethau, trio sortio pethau allan. Rŵan, efallai bod hynna ddim yn ddelfrydol ar gyfer cyrraedd y targed, ond sicrhewch fod y gefnogaeth yna'n ariannol ac o ran staff cyn ichi eu gwneud nhw'n statudol a bydd pethau'n well, buaswn i'n tybio.

At the moment, schools are grateful that the categorisation is nonstatutory, because if it was a requirement, because of the current financial situation, I think they would truly regret that. But having said that, because they are nonstatutory, you don't get that flow in the schools to realise and achieve this important aspiration. So, certainly, making them statutory would put more pressure on schools to ensure that they do comply and that there is quality in the WESPs, but you can't do that in isolation, you will have to provide the funding and the support. Again, it all comes down to infrastructure, a word that I've used often. You have to put that infrastructure in place if you are to make them statutory. At the moment, schools can take a break, particularly when they're short of funding, they can see where they are and try and sort things out. Now, that might not be ideal for reaching the target, but ensure that the financial support is there as well as the staffing support before you make them statutory and things will improve.

Allaf i jest ofyn yn gryno i orffen: sut arall all Llywodraeth Cymru, felly, annog neu gymell yr awdurdodau lleol i wella'r agwedd yma ar y CSCAau? Oes yna unrhyw beth sy'n gallu cael ei wneud o gwmpas y fframwaith cyfalaf cyllid o ran helpu a hwyluso cynllunio hirdymor ac yn y blaen?

May I ask, briefly, to conclude: what else could the Welsh Government do to encourage or incentivise local authorities to improve this aspect of the WESPs? Is there anything that could be done in terms of the capital funding envelope to help facilitate these longer term plans?

Pwy fuasai'n hoffi mynd yn gyntaf ar hynny? Eithne.

Who would like to go first on that? Eithne.

I think resource is required on this one. I think there needs to be heavy investment. However, it doesn't appear that that will be coming any time soon, given the situation that we've got across local authorities at the moment in terms of a lack of funding. So, I think funding is required, resource is required, high-level professional learning, all of the things that we've already pointed to within the system, coming back to that business of having a structure that supports the aspirations and targets of this agenda. Thank you.

Diolch. Siôn, oes gennych chi rywbeth i'w ychwanegu?

Thank you. Siôn, do you have anything to add?

Mi oedd gennych chi, hyd at 2015, y grantiau Cymraeg mewn addysg, ac mi oedd y rheini'n cael eu defnyddio i gefnogi'r union fath yma o gefnogaeth mewn ysgolion sydd wirioneddol angen yr help fwyaf i symud ymlaen ar y daith yma. Mae'r rheini wedi mynd ers 2015, ac mae awdurdodau ers hynny wedi gorfod ariannu pa bynnag arlwy oedd yn ei le ar y pryd, er enghraifft yr athrawon oedd yn mynd rownd ysgolion. Yn amlwg, ar y pryd, pan oedd y grant yna'n bodoli mi oedd yna fwy o ffyniant a gwell adnoddau. Felly, i ateb cwestiwn yr Aelod, yn amlwg, mi fuasai rhywbeth tebyg yn cael ei ailgyflwyno yn mynd â chi yn ôl i'r fath o isadeiledd a chefnogaeth oedd yna ar y pryd.

Until 2015, you had these Welsh in education grants, and they were used to support exactly this kind of provision in schools that most need help to move ahead on this journey. That has gone since 2015, and the authorities since then have had to fund whatever provision is in place, for example those teachers who go around the schools to give that support. So, when that grant existed, there was more prosperity and better resources. So, to answer the Member's question, something similar, if it were to be reintroduced, would take you back to that kind of infrastructure and the support that existed at that time.

Un pwynt cyflym iawn. Dwi'n meddwl bod angen canolbwyntio, gan ei bod hi'n rhaglen 10 mlynedd fel mae'n sefyll, ar yr hyn sy'n digwydd yn y cyfnod sylfaen ac mewn ysgolion cynradd. Bydd hi'n dwf neu yn ddatblygiad naturiol wedyn yn yr ysgolion uwchradd, buaswn i'n dweud. Ond mae angen canolbwyntio ar yr hyn sy'n digwydd. Mae'r cwestiynau ac mae'r targedau'n is i lawr, onid dydyn? Ond dyna lle mae angen canolbwyntio—yr angen i ddatblygu adnoddau a staff. Felly, dyna lle mae'r canolbwyntio angen bod ar hyn o bryd. Rydyn ni bron yn anghofio'r hyn sydd yn yr ysgol uwchradd ar hyn o bryd, er mwyn sicrhau llwyddiant.

Very briefly, I do think we need to focus, as it is a 10-year programme as things stand, on what happens in the foundation phase and in primary schools. It will then be a natural development in the secondary schools. But we need to focus on what's happening. The targets are further down, aren't they? We need to focus on developing staff and resources. That's where the focus should be at the moment. We could almost forget the secondary sector at the moment, to secure success in the longer term.

10:20

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Troi rŵan at gwestiynau Carolyn Thomas.

Thank you very much. We'll turn now to questions from Carolyn Thomas.

Okay. You mentioned about having learning advisers going around schools. We used to have the curriculum advisers, didn't we, at one time, before the consortiums took over—GwE. Do you get any assistance from GwE in this matter—sorry, the education consortiums?

Fe wnawn ni fynd at Siôn gyntaf.

We'll go to Siôn first of all.

Dyna sydd wedi digwydd, mewn ffordd. Pan wnaeth y grant Cymraeg mewn addysg fynd yn 2015, mae awdurdodau a'r ysgolion wedi gorfod troi at greiddiau eraill i gael yr arlwy yma. Yn sicr, rydych chi'n hollol gywir, mae'r consortia wedi cymryd ychydig bach o'r pwysau ymlaen. Ond, rydych chi hefyd yn gweld ysgolion yn troi at y trydydd sector i sicrhau bod yna arlwy. Mae'r Urdd yn dod i mewn, mae'r Scouts yn dod i mewn, i gynnig yr arlwy yma a thrio phlygio'r gaps sy'n bodoli oherwydd y diffyg sydd wedi cael ei greu wrth i'r grantiau gael eu tynnu. Felly, i ateb eich cwestiwn chi'n benodol, ydy, mae'r consortia yn cyfrannu, ond ydyn nhw efallai rhyw hyd braich? Oes angen rhywbeth mwy focused?

That is what has happened, in a way. When the Welsh in education grant was abolished in 2015, the authorities and schools have had to turn to other sources of support for this provision. You are entirely right, the consortia have taken on some of this load. But, you do also see schools turning to the third sector to ensure that this provision continues. The Urdd comes in, the Scouts come in, to offer this provision and try to plug the gaps that exist because of the deficit that has been created when this grant was abolished. So, yes, the consortia do contribute, to answer your question, but are they at arm's length? Do we need something more focused?

Diolch. Roedd hwnnw'n amlwg yn gwestiwn penodol i Siôn. Oes yna rywun arall eisiau ychwanegu unrhyw beth?

Thank you. Clearly, that was a specific question for Siôn. Does anyone have anything to add?

Yr unig beth buaswn i'n ei ddweud ydy bod angen edrych ar remit y consortia. Er tegwch iddyn nhw—rydych chi wedi nodi GwE—hyn a hyn maen nhw'n gallu ei ddarparu wrth gwrs. Rydyn ni'n sôn am y trydydd sector yn fan hyn. Un pwynt fuaswn i yn ei wneud yn gryf iawn o ran darpariaeth y Gymraeg a chategoreiddio ysgolion ydy bod gweithgareddau yn y Gymraeg ddim o reidrwydd yn mynd i sicrhau ein bod ni'n cyrraedd y targed, ac mae hynny yn bryder mawr. Felly, dwi ddim yn meddwl bod yna le i feirniadu consortia yn hyn o beth, beth bynnag, ac mae'n rhaid i'r arweiniad ddod yn genedlaethol. Os oes remit amlwg ganddyn nhw yn y maes, dwi'n siŵr y gwnawn nhw ddarparu, ond mae'r gefnogaeth yn amrywio o le i le. Efallai bod y consortia yn canolbwyntio'n ormodol ar y sector Gymraeg a'r sector Saesneg a bod y sefyllfa ddim yn pontio gymaint â hynny ar hyn o bryd.

The only thing I would say is that we need to look at the remit of the consortia. In fairness to them—you've mentioned GwE—there's only so much that they can provide of course. We're talking about the third sector here. One point that I would make very strongly in terms of Welsh-medium provision and the categorisation of schools is that Welsh language activities aren't necessarily going to ensure that we reach the target, and that is a huge concern. So, I don't think that we could criticise consortia in this regard, at least, but the leadership has to come at a national level. If they have a clear remit in this area, I'm sure that they would provide, but the support varies from place to place. Perhaps the consortia are overly focused on the Welsh-medium sector and the English-medium sector and that there is not enough crossover at the moment.

Diolch. Unrhyw sylwadau ychwanegol, Eithne?

Thank you. Any other comments, Eithne?

Gaf i droi nôl at Carolyn, os gwelwch yn dda?

Can I turn back to Carolyn, please?

Okay, I'm going off script again here. It's just with reference to what Eithne was saying earlier about training for teachers in Welsh language. There was an announcement recently about free Welsh lessons available for 18 to 25-year-olds and teaching staff. It says about having online portals and education facilities available, but I guess you need to have time to do that, and it's not the same as immersion, is it? So, I'd just like your input on that. Will this that's been offered make a difference, if you have seen this announcement? Just your views.

Diolch. Os cawn ni droi at Eithne. Diolch.

Thank you. If we can turn to Eithne. Thanks.

That's fine, and a good question. Yes, I had seen that that was on offer, and very welcome indeed. But, I think it does come back to the business of time. So, how do we learn a language? How do we acquire a language? It needs to be frequent, in short bursts, and it needs to be very regular, if it's not an immersion course. To do that, you need to have time in the working week in order that that can actually be delivered. Time is in short supply in schools because funding is limited. Possibly, in a timetable of 25 hours, you may well have just a couple of hours that you've got for preparation and planning. So, it doesn't give you sufficient time to do some of this incredibly important work, but that is going to make the difference. So, if we're expecting staff to go into a portal and do this in the evening when they've got a stack of marking to do, it's going to end up being secondary to the day-to-day job of just trying to get through all of the workforce pressures that are upon teachers as they currently stand. Thank you.

Diolch. Unrhyw beth i'w ychwanegu, Ioan?

Thank you. Anything to add, Ioan?

Wel, yn amlwg, rydyn ni'n croesawu'r gefnogaeth bellach yma gan y Llywodraeth, ac rydyn ni'n croesawu hefyd y cynlluniau sabothol sydd gan y Llywodraeth a'r ffordd maen nhw'n trio annog y defnydd o'r Gymraeg yn ehangach. Ond mae o'n gwestiwn gennyf fi—a dwi ddim eisiau bod yn orfeirniadol fan hyn: ydy hwn yn mynd i fod yn ddigon o ran diwallu anghenion y strategaeth iaith? Trwytho a throchi sy'n llwyddo, a thrwytho a throchi o oed cynnar. Ac felly, ydyn, rydyn ni'n croesawu, ac mae'n braf medru dweud, 'Helo, shwmae', ac ati efo unigolion, ond dwi ddim yn gweld bod hwn yn mynd i gyfrannu'n fawr at y strategaeth.

Well, clearly, we welcome the additional support from the Government, and we also welcome the sabbatical schemes that the Government has and the way that they're trying to encourage use of the Welsh language more widely. But I have a question—and I don't want to be overly critical here: is this going to be sufficient in terms of meeting the needs of the language strategy? Immersion is what succeeds, and it's immersion from an early age. So, yes, we welcome this, and it's wonderful to be able to say, 'Helo, shwmae?', to individuals, but I don't see how this is going to contribute a great deal towards that wider strategy.

10:25

Mae o'n bwynt pwysig, onid ydy, oherwydd cyflogaeth ydy hynna ar ddiwedd y dydd, ac mae angen i'r staff sy'n gyflogedig fod yn gallu gwneud eu gwaith; dŷch chi ddim eisiau rhyw frustration of contract. Ac felly, mae'n hanfodol bwysig fod yna gymaint o bosibiliadau ar gael iddyn nhw drochi a bod yn hyddysg yn y Gymraeg ac, fel mae Eithne wedi'i ddweud yn hollol gywir, mae angen cyllideb amser ynghlwm wrth hyn.

Mae dysgu'n un o'r swyddi od yma lle dydy dysgu ddim yn stopio. So, os ydych chi allan o'r dosbarth am chwe mis ar gynllun sabothol, mae'r dysgu'n gorfod parhau hebddoch chi, ac mae yna gyllid yn perthyn i hynny, i gael athrawon llanw ac yn y blaen i gymryd eich gwersi chi, sydd yn wahanol i rai swyddi efallai lle rydych chi'n gallu parcio'ch gwaith am chwe mis tra rydych chi'n cael eich trochi. Felly, mae angen y gyllideb amser ynddo fo sy'n galluogi staff i fynd ar yr hyfforddiant yma yn adeg gwaith, ddim yn ychwanegol iddo fo, ond sydd ddim yn mynd i gael effaith andwyol ar y gwersi y bydden nhw yn eu dysgu ac wedi bod yn eu dysgu petasen nhw o flaen y dosbarth o hyd.

It's an important point, isn't it, because this is employment at the end of the day, and employed staff need to be able to do their work; you don't want some frustration of contract. So, it's crucially important that there are as many possibilities available as possible for them to be immersed and to be proficient in Welsh and, as Eithne has said quite rightly, you need time allocated to this.

Teaching is one of these strange roles where the teaching doesn't stop. So, if you're out of the classroom for six months on a sabbatical, that teaching has to continue without you, and there's funding required for that, to get supply teachers in and so on to teach your classes, which may be different to some roles where you can park your work for six months whilst you are being immersed. So, we need that investment of time that will enable staff to take this training during work hours, not in addition to their work hours, but without that having a detrimental impact on the lessons that they would be teaching and would have been teaching had they been before the class. 

Diolch. Carolyn, oes yna unrhyw beth ychwanegol rydych chi eisiau ei holi yn gryno?

Thank you. Carolyn, is there anything that you'd like to add briefly?

Just what level of engagement do you think is taking place between local authorities and stakeholders regarding the development of the WESPs? Do you think it could be improved in the future? And to what extent do local authorities utilise the Welsh-medium education forums, where they're established, and the perceived impact of the forums on the individual WESPs?

Mae hwnna'n gwestiwn mawr ac mae gennym ni dri munud, mae arnaf i ofn. Gaf i ofyn am sylwadau cryno gan bawb, gan ddechrau efo Ioan?

That was a big question and we have three minutes left, I'm afraid. So, may I ask for succinct comments, beginning with Ioan?

Yn gyflym, it varies from county to county, from authority to authority. Perhaps an authority that you might know quite well, I believe that they engage very well. However, it does vary, and perhaps more can be made, because some WESPs didn't even refer to external stakeholders, and further education is not always included within these forums either.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Eithne.

Thank you very much. Eithne.

I have nothing to add, apart from what we've already said, which is that it is not consistent across the country. So, I think that consistency is important. Thank you.

Dim byd gwahanol i beth mae Eithne a Ioan wedi'i ddweud.

Nothing to add to the comments made by Eithne and Ioan.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Gan fod amser wedi mynd yn drech arnom ni, dwi yn mynd i roi cyfle sydyn iawn, os oes yna unrhyw un ohonoch chi fel tystion eisiau dweud rhywbeth rydych chi'n meddwl sydd yn bwysig i'w nodi dydych chi heb gael cyfle i'w ddweud eto. Ioan, oes yna unrhyw beth rydych chi eisiau ei ychwanegu?

Thank you very much. As time has defeated us, I will give you a very brief opportunity to say anything that you believe should be noted by the committee that you haven't had an opportunity to say as of yet. Ioan, anything you wanted to add?

Dim byd ond pwysleisio mewn ffordd pa mor bwysig ydy cynllunio gweithlu a gwneud yn siŵr bod y proffesiwn yn rhywbeth sy'n apelio, a'n bod ni'n gwobrwyo sgiliau, fel siarad Cymraeg a gallu addysgu'r Gymraeg yn effeithiol, ac yn deg, oherwydd mae yna bryder mawr gennym ni nad ydy'r cynllunio, ddywedwn ni, ar hyn o bryd yn effeithiol, heb sôn am gynllunio ar gyfer 10 mlynedd yn y dyfodol.

Just to emphasise how important workforce planning is and ensuring that the profession is something that appeals to people, and that we reward skills, such as being able to speak Welsh and teach through the medium of Welsh effectively, and do so fairly, because we have a great concern that the planning at present, shall we say, is not effective, never mind the planning for 10 years hence.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Eithne.

Thank you very much. Eithne.

I've nothing further to add, but I'd just like to thank the committee for giving time to this agenda item. Thank you.

Diolch o galon. A Siôn.

Thank you very much. And Siôn.

Isadeiledd addas i fedru'r CSCAau hyn i lwyddo yn yr amser byr sydd ohoni, sef staffio ac adnoddau.

Appropriate and adequate infrastructure to enable these WESPs to succeed in the short time ahead in terms of staffing and resources. 

Gwych. Gaf i ddiolch o galon i chi fel tystion am ddod heddiw, am fod mor barod i roi tystiolaeth, a thystiolaeth onest o'ch barn hefyd—dwi'n gwerthfawrogi—fel rhan o'r ymchwiliad? Mi fyddwn ni'n cymryd egwyl fer rŵan fel pwyllgor. Byddwn ni'n ailgychwyn am 10:40, ond diolch eto i'r tystion.

Excellent. May I thank you all very much as witnesses for joining us today, being so willing to give evidence, and honest evidence of your views—we appreciate that very much—as part of our inquiry? We will take a short break now as a committee. We'll reconvene at 10:40, but thank you very much to the witnesses.

10:30

Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much.

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:30 a 10:40.

The meeting adjourned between 10:30 and 10:40.

10:40
3. Cynlluniau Strategol Cymraeg mewn Addysg: Sesiwn dystiolaeth gydag eiriolwyr addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg
3. Welsh in Education Strategic Plans (WESPS): Evidence session with Welsh-medium education advocates

Croeso nôl. Rydyn ni'n mynd rhagddo efo ein hymchwiliad o ran y cynlluniau strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg. Diolch yn fawr iawn i'n tystion ni am ymuno â ni. A gaf i ofyn i chi gyd gyflwyno eich hunain a phwy rydych chi'n ei gynrychioli ar gyfer y record, os gwelwch yn dda? Os cawn ni ddechrau yn yr ystafell.

Welcome back. We are continuing with our inquiry into the Welsh in education strategic plans. Thank you very much to our witnesses for joining us. May I ask you all to introduce yourselves and state who you represent, for the record, please? If we can start in the room.

Heini Gruffudd. Dwi'n gadeirydd Dyfodol i'r Iaith.

Heini Gruffudd, chair, Dyfodol i'r Iaith. 

Elin Maher, cyfarwyddwr cenedlaethol i fudiad Rhieni dros Addysg Gymraeg.  

Elin Maher, national director, Rhieni dros Addysg Gymraeg.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Ac os caf i droi at Dyfan.

Thank you very much. And if I could now turn to Dyfan.

Dyfan Sion. Dwi'n gyfarwyddwr strategol i swyddfa Comisiynydd y Gymraeg. 

Dyfan Sion, strategic director, Welsh Language Commissioner's office. 

Toni Schiavone. Fi yw cadeirydd grŵp addysg Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg, a dwi yma yn lle Mabli Siriol, fel cadeirydd.

Toni Schiavone. I'm chair of the education group for Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg, and I'm here in place of Mabli Siriol, who is the chair.

Wel, diolch o galon i chi gyd am ymuno efo ni. Mae gennym ni awr, a nifer o gwestiynau. A gaf i hefyd ddiolch i o galon ichi am y dystiolaeth ddifyr rydych chi wedi ei chyflwyno ymlaen llaw i ni? Mae hyn yn bwysig fel rhan o'n gwaith ni fel dau bwyllgor ar y cyd. Mae Sioned Williams yn ymuno efo ni o'r pwyllgor plant a phobl ifanc hefyd. Mi wnaf eich rhagrybuddio chi fod Alun Davies yn gorfod ein gadael ni am 11:00. Mae yna wasanaeth coffa i'r diweddar Mohammad Asghar heddiw yn y Senedd. Felly, nid cerdded allan yn sgil yr hyn fyddwch chi'n ei roi fel tystiolaeth fydd o, ond i'ch rhagrybuddio am hynny. A gaf i droi, felly, yn gyntaf, at Alun er mwyn iddo ofyn ei gwestiynau fo i chi?   

Well, thank you very much for joining us. We have an hour, and a number of questions. May I also thank you for the interesting evidence that you presented to us? This is an important part of our work as two committees working jointly. Sioned Williams is joining us from the children and young people committee. I will warn you that Alun Davies will have to leave us at 11:00. There is a memorial service for the late Mohammad Asghar in the Senedd today. So, he is not storming out as a result of your evidence, but I just wanted to warn you of that. So, if I could turn, first of all, to Alun to ask his questions.

Diolch i chi. Ydy'r WESPs yn gweithio?

Thank you very much. Are the WESPs working?

Pwy fuasai'n hoffi mynd yn gyntaf? Elin?

Who would like to go first? Elin? 

Wel, mae'n gynnar eto, dwi'n meddwl, i wybod os ydy'r cynlluniau presennol yn gweithio. 

Well, it's early yet, I think, to know whether the current plans are working.

Y WESPs fel fframwaith.

But the WESPs as a framework.

Fel fframwaith, wel, mae'r fframwaith newydd, heb os nac oni bai, wedi gwella ac yn rhagori ar yr un diwethaf. Mae hyn oherwydd ein bod ni'n edrych ar y cyfnodau cynnar hynny. Rwy'n credu bod deilliant 1 yn allweddol a bod yr elfennau sydd yn rhoi'r sail yna i fwydo y deilliannau yn y cyfnodau statudol yn bwysig. Ond, dwi'n credu hefyd mai beth mae unrhyw fanylu ac ehangu yn ei wneud yw dangos y gwendidau efallai sydd hefyd angen mynd i'r afael â nhw. Felly, er efallai eu bod nhw yn welliant, dŷn nhw ddim o bell ffordd yn berffaith.

Well, as a framework, the new framework, without a doubt, is an improvement on the previous one. This is because we are looking at the early years. I think outcome 1 is important, and the elements that give that basis to feed into the outcomes in the statutory stages are important too. But, I think what any increase in detail does is point out weaknesses, possibly, that also need to be tackled. So, although they are an improvement on the previous situation, they are not perfect by any means.

Diolch. A gaf i droi at Heini?

Thank you. If I could turn to Heini.

Diolch. Rwy'n cytuno ag Elin, ond efallai buaswn yn mynd tipyn bach ymhellach. Mae'n dda eu bod nhw, erbyn hyn, yn gynlluniau 10 mlynedd, ond rwy'n pryderu'n fawr fod awdurdodau lleol yn gosod yn y cynlluniau 10 mlynedd yr hyn fyddem ni wedi'i weld yn y cynlluniau pum mlynedd. Mae yna gyhoeddiad wedi bod y bydd yna 22 o ysgolion ychwanegol, neu 23, o ysgolion Cymraeg, un i bob awdurdod addysg erbyn 2030. Wel, dyw hwnna ddim yn dangos unrhyw fomentwm ychwanegol o'r hyn rydym ni wedi ei weld yn y gorffennol. Yn yr ail le, mae awdurdodau addysg yn defnyddio—rhai ohonyn nhw—y cynlluniau yma i oedi, i oedi gweithredu. Abertawe, er enghraifft—rwy'n gwybod mwy am Abertawe na llefydd eraill—yn nodi byddan nhw yn edrych efallai ar sefydlu rhagor o ysgolion Cymraeg. Hynny yw, mae'r geiriad yn annelwig a dwi'n ofni ei fod e'n annigonol o ran y momentwm ychwanegol rydym ni eisiau ei weld.

Un peth dŷn nhw ddim yn ei wneud yn benodol yw cysylltu twf ysgolion Cymraeg â'r angen enfawr am staff ychwanegol. Mae Abertawe yn nodi, er enghraifft, bydd angen 40 o athrawon ychwanegol, 40 o staff cynorthwyol ychwanegol, os byddan nhw'n sefydlu tair ysgol arall yn Abertawe, ond does dim byd yn y cynlluniau yma sydd yn cydgysylltu'r datblygiad staff sydd yn angenrheidiol. Ar hyn o bryd, mae yna ddiffyg staff, mae yna brinder athrawon yn cael eu hyfforddi ac mae'r targedau yn annigonol. Dwi'n credu bod 250 ar hyn o bryd yn cael eu hyfforddi bob blwyddyn; mae angen 600. Hynny yw, mae angen gwyrdroi, newid yn llwyr y system hyfforddi athrawon, a rhoi pwyslais mawr ar hwnna. Heb hynny, well i ni beidio â sôn am dwf addysg Gymraeg. Mae'n dda eu bod nhw ar gael, ond mae eisiau—

Thank you. I agree with Elin, but perhaps I would go a little further. Now that they are 10-year plans, I welcome that, but I am very concerned that local authorities are setting down in 10-year plans what we would have previously seen in the five-year plans. There has been an announcement that there will be 22 or 23 new Welsh schools, but that's one for every local authority by 2030. That doesn't suggest any real additional momentum from what we've seen in the past. Secondly, education authorities—or some education authorities—are using these plans to delay progress. Swansea, for example—and I know more about Swansea than elsewhere—is saying that they would look at perhaps establishing more Welsh-medium schools. That wording is vague and I fear that it's inadequate in terms of the additional momentum that we want to see. 

One thing that they don't do specifically is to link the growth in Welsh-medium schools with the great need for additional staff. Swansea notes, for example, that there will be a need for an additional 40 teachers, an additional 40 support staff, if they are to establish another three schools in Swansea, but there is nothing in these plans that joins up the staff development that would be required. At the moment, there is a shortage of staff, there is a shortage of teachers being trained and the targets are inadequate. I think 250 are currently being trained every year; we need 600. So, we need to totally transform the teacher training system and put great emphasis on that. Without that, we might as well forget the growth of Welsh-medium education. It's good that they are available—

10:45

Dyw e ddim yn swnio fel—

Well, it doesn’t sound like you welcome them.

Efallai bod y cwestiwn yn anghywir yn yr ystyr eu bod nhw'n iawn ac wedi bod yn iawn, ac wedi datblygu ar y sefyllfa rŷn ni wedi ei chael yn y gorffennol. Ond mae angen, rhywsut, newid y momentwm yn llwyr os ŷn ni eisiau cyrraedd y targedau, ac felly mae eisiau gweld rhywbeth mwy dwfn—a galwch e'n chwyldroadol—na'r system araf sydd gyda ni ar hyn o bryd.

Well, they're fine, they have been fine, and they are a development on what we've had in place in the past. But somehow, we need a shift of momentum if we are to reach our targets, so we need something more transformational than the sluggish system that we currently have.

Dwi ddim cweit mor awyddus i gadarnhau'r drefn bresennol. Maen nhw wedi methu ers saith mlynedd ac mae'r adolygiad gan Aled Roberts wedi dangos y diffygion. Mae yna nifer o argymhellion yn yr adroddiad yna; dyw nhw ddim i gyd wedi cael eu gweithredu. Does dim grym statudol y tu ôl iddyn nhw. Dwi'n teimlo bod angen arweiniad cryfach a chliriach oddi wrth Lywodraeth Cymru, ac yn ogystal â hynny, mae angen i ni sicrhau bod yna drefn adolygu ac arolygu'r cynlluniau strategol yma—nid gan swyddogion oddi fewn i Lywodraeth Cymru, ond gan gorff sydd gyda'r sgiliau i fedru gwneud hynny, sef, Estyn. Yr hyn sydd ei angen gan awdurdodau lleol yw cynlluniau gweithredu o fewn i fframwaith strategol cenedlaethol, a hynny'n seiliedig ar dargedau Cymraeg 2050. Hynny yw, y nod yw cael pob disgybl yn gadael ysgol yng Nghymru yn medru siarad Cymraeg, a'r nod ar lefel awdurdodau lleol yw cynllunio i wneud hynny. Dyna beth ydy natur a phwrpas y cynlluniau ar lefel awdurdodau lleol, yn ein barn ni, fel Cymdeithas.

I'm not quite as eager to confirm the current system. They've failed for seven years, and a review by Aled Roberts has shown the deficiencies. There are a number of recommendations in that report, and they've not all been implemented. There is no statutory force behind these plans. I think we'd need stronger and clearer leadership from the Welsh Government, and I think as well we need to ensure that there's a review system for these WESPs, not by Welsh Government officials, but those who have the skills to do that, namely, Estyn. What we need from local authorities is action plans within a national strategic plan based on the 2050 targets. So the aim is to get every pupil leaving school in Wales being able to speak Welsh, and the role of the local authorities is to plan for that. That is what the nature and purpose of the plans are on a local authority level, in our view, as Cymdeithas.

Diolch. Gaf i droi, yn olaf, at Dyfan?

Can I turn, finally, to Dyfan?

Diolch. Buaswn i'n dweud bod y fframwaith sydd yn bodoli rŵan yn sicr yn welliant ar y fframwaith blaenorol. Dwi'n cytuno efo Toni o ran nad ydy'r fframwaith, efallai, yn delio efo argymhellion yr adolygiad a gynhaliwyd i gyd. Wedi dweud hynny, rydyn ni'n croesawu'r ffaith eu bod nhw am 10 mlynedd. Mae yna ddeilliannau clir yn y canllawiau; mae'r canllawiau hefyd yn rhai lled fanwl. Mae yna broblemau. O beth y gwelsom ni yn y drafftiau, mae'r cynlluniau yn fanwl iawn am y tair, pedair blynedd gyntaf, ac yn fwy o weledigaeth annelwig, efallai, yn dilyn hynny. Dwi'n cytuno hefyd fod angen—. Mae yna gwestiynau o hyd ynglŷn â'r trefniadau adolygu ac arolygu, ac mae angen mwy o sicrwydd ynglŷn â hynny.

Y peth arall y buaswn i'n ei ddweud ydy nad ydy'r CSCAau ddim yn mynd i ddelio efo popeth sydd ei angen ar eu pennau eu hunain. Rhan o strategaeth ehangach ydy'r CSCAau, ac mae yna fylchau yn y pethau sydd yn cefnogi hynny. Efallai y down ni at y drafodaeth yna nes ymlaen, wrth ystyried y Bil addysg arfaethedig.

Thank you. I would say that the existing framework is certainly an improvement on the previous framework. I agree with Toni that the framework perhaps hasn't dealt with all the recommendations of the review. Having said that, we welcome the fact that they are 10-year plans. There are clear outcomes in the guidance, and the guidance is relatively detailed, too. There are problems—from what we saw in the drafts, the WESPs are very detailed on the first three or four years, and then provide a more ambiguous vision for ensuing years. I also agree that there are remaining questions on the review and inspection processes, and there needs to be more assurance in that area.

The other thing I would say is that the WESPs aren't going to deal with everything that's needed. The WESPs are part of a broader strategy, and there are gaps in those things supporting that. Perhaps we will come to that later, as we consider the proposed education Bill.

Diolch i chi am hynny. Dŷch chi i gyd, bron, wedi dweud rhywbeth tebyg iawn i'ch gilydd; efallai nad yw Toni wedi. Ond, jest oherwydd bod y WESPs presennol yn well nag yr oedden nhw, dyw hynny ddim yn meddwl mai'r system yma ydy'r un sy'n mynd i'n galluogi ni i gyrraedd y targedau Cymraeg 2050. So, beth ydy'r tri pheth y buasech chi eisiau eu gweld yn newid yn y system bresennol i'n galluogi ni i gyrraedd y targedau rydyn ni i gyd wedi cytuno arnyn nhw?

Thank you for that. You've almost all said something very similar; perhaps Toni hasn't. But, just because the current WESPs are better than what used to be in place, that doesn't mean that it is this system that is going to enable us to reach the Cymraeg 2050 target. So, what are the three things, say, that you would like to see changing with regard to the current system to enable us to reach the targets that we've all agreed?

Dwi'n mynd i ddechrau'r tro yma gyda Dyfan, os gwelwch yn dda.

I'm going to start this time with Dyfan.

Fel y dywedais i, un rhan o'r darlun ydy'r CSCAau, ac felly mae angen i weddill y fframwaith a'r strategaeth gefnogi a chyfrannu tuag at y CSCAau, hefyd. Rydyn ni'n cyfeirio tipyn at hyn yn y dystiolaeth ysgrifenedig y gwnaethon ni ei rhannu, ond yn gryno, yn y lle cyntaf, dwi'n meddwl bod angen trefn fwy cydlynus ar gyfer y gefnogaeth a'r gyllideb gyfalaf sydd ar gyfer ysgolion yng Nghymru. Dwi'n meddwl hefyd fod angen gwneud y broses o symud ysgolion ar hyd y continwwm ieithyddol yn haws. Rhywbeth y buasem ni ddim yn disgwyl i'r CSCAau ddelio efo—a dydyn nhw ddim—ydy'r sefyllfa o ran y sector Saesneg yng Nghymru, a sut maen nhw'n mynd i fynd ati i gyfrannu tuag at greu dysgwyr neu siaradwyr Cymraeg hyderus. Mae disgwyl i'r sector yna gyfrannu os ydy'r Llywodraeth yn mynd i gyrraedd eu targedau Cymraeg 2050.

Ac yn olaf wedyn, beth fuaswn i'n ei ddweud ydy, yn amlwg, mae angen cynyddu nifer yr athrawon sy'n gallu addysgu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Rydym yn croesawu'r cynllun 10 mlynedd mae'r Llywodraeth wedi ei gyhoeddi, ond eto, o ran yr ymrwymiadau yn hwnnw, dwi ddim yn meddwl bod hwnnw'n ddigon pellgyrhaeddol fel mae'n sefyll i gyfrannu tuag at strategaeth Cymraeg 2050. 

Felly, dyna'r pethau dwi'n meddwl sydd eu hangen er mwyn cryfhau a hwyluso gweithredu'r CSCAau. 

As I said, the WESPs are just one part of the jigsaw. So, the rest of the framework and strategy need to support and contribute towards the WESPs, and we refer a fair bit to this in the written evidence that we shared with you. But succinctly, I think, initially, we need a more co-ordinated approach for the support and capital budget available for schools in Wales. I also think that we need to make the process of moving schools along the linguistic continuum easier, and one thing that we wouldn't expect the WESPs to deal with—and they don't—is that situation in terms of the English-medium sector in Wales, and how they will contribute towards the creation of confident Welsh speakers. Now, that sector is expected to contribute if the Government is to reach its targets in Cymraeg 2050.

And then finally, what I would say is that, clearly, we need to increase the number of teachers who are able to teach through the medium of Welsh. We welcome the Government's 10-year plan, but again, in terms of the commitment contained within it, I don't think that they are sufficiently far-reaching as things stand to contribute towards the Cymraeg 2050 strategy. 

So, those are the things that I think are needed in order to strengthen and facilitate the implementation of the WESPs. 

10:50

Tri pheth. Yn y lle cyntaf, continwwm dysgu ac asesu ar draws yr ysgolion. Ar hyn o bryd, rydyn ni'n caniatáu ysgolion nad ydynt yn ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg i ddilyn llwybr asesu sydd yn wahanol i'r un yn yr ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg. Does yna ddim gorgyffwrdd yn yr asesiadau drafft a gynigiwyd gan Cymwysterau Cymru rhwng cymhwyster ar gyfer ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg ac ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg. Gallwch chi ddim cyfiawnhau hynny'n addysgol. Mae hynny ond yn ail-frandio ac yn parhau'r drefn sydd gyda ni ar hyn o bryd—trefn sy'n methu 80 y cant o ddisgyblion Cymru, ac yn parhau i wneud hynny er gwaethaf y gwaith a wnaed trwy'r CSCAau. Felly, dyna'r un cyntaf. 

Yn ail, dwi'n cytuno gyda beth y dywedodd Dyfan: mae angen continwwm ysgolion. Mae angen sicrhau bod pob awdurdod yn cynllunio i symud ysgolion ar hyd continwwm mai ysgolion cyfrwng—dylid cael gwared ar y syniad o ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg—ysgolion cyfrwng dwyieithog yw'r ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg, a chynllunio bwriadus ar gyfer hynny. Mae Cyngor Sir Gaerfyrddin eisoes wedi dechrau gwneud hynny trwy nodi 10 ysgol a fydd yn symud ar hyd y continwwm, ond mae'r meddylfryd yna a'r angen trawsnewidiol yna ddim wedi cael ei ymestyn ar draws y CSCAau ac ar draws ysgolion Cymru. 

Ac yn drydydd, yn allweddol, allwn ni ddim cael unrhyw newid trawsnewidiol oni bai bod ni'n cael strategaeth hyrwyddo a datblygu'r Gymraeg ymysg y gweithlu presennol, yn ogystal â'r gweithlu at y dyfodol. Felly, mae angen strategaeth sy'n ymrwymo pob athro ac athrawes i drefn o gefnogi ac o gyflwyno'r Gymraeg i bob disgybl, fel eu bod nhw'n gadael yr ysgol yn rhugl yn y Gymraeg. Nawr, mae hwnna yn ofyn trawsnewidiol. A gaf i awgrymu eich bod chi'n edrych ar beth mae Heddlu Dyfed Powys yn ei wneud, lle maen nhw eisoes wedi ymrwymo bod pob un o'r heddweision newydd sy'n cael eu recriwtio yn cychwyn ar lwybr o wella eu Cymraeg nhw tra'u bod nhw yn y gwaith? Mae'r cynllun yna wedi cael ei lansio ddoe. Mae'n dangos gweledigaeth, mae'n dangos cynllun manwl a bwriad i sicrhau bod gweithlu Heddlu Dyfed Powys yn gwbl ddwyieithog yn y dyfodol. 

Three things. First of all, the teaching and assessment continuum across schools. At the moment, we allow schools that aren't Welsh-medium schools to pursue a different assessment pathway to that of English-medium schools. There is no overlap in the draft assessment proposed by Qualifications Wales between a qualification for English-medium schools and Welsh-medium schools. You can't justify that educationally. That's just rebranding and continuing with the current system—a system that fails 80 per cent of pupils in Wales, and will continue to do that despite the work done through the WESPs. So, that's the first point. 

Secondly, I agree with what Dyfan said: we need a schools continuum. We need to ensure that every authority plans to move schools along a continuum whereby we get rid of the idea of English-medium schools; they should be bilingual-medium schools becoming a Welsh-medium school, and to plan deliberately for that. Carmarthenshire County Council has already done that through identifying 10 schools that will move along the continuum, but that mindset and that transformational demand isn't extended across WESPs and across the schools of Wales. 

Thirdly and vitally important, we can't have any transformational change unless we have a promotional and developmental strategy amongst the current workforce, as well as with the future workforce. So, we need a strategy that commits every teacher to a regime of supporting and introducing the Welsh language to every pupil, so that they do leave school fluent in Welsh. That is a transformational ask. May I suggest that you look at what Dyfed Powys Police is doing, where they've already committed that every one of the new police officers recruited will start on that path of improving their Welsh whilst they are at work? That scheme was launched yesterday. It shows vision, it shows a detailed plan and an intention to ensure that the Dyfed Powys Police workforce is entirely bilingual in future. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Felly, Heini, tri pheth. 

Thank you very much. Heini, three things. 

Iawn. Mae rhyw 12 o bethau gyda fi [Chwerthin.] Yn gyntaf—fe wnaf i drio cadw at dri—rwy'n cytuno ar y syniad o symud ysgolion ar hyd y continwwm fel bod ysgolion dwyieithog yn mynd yn rhai Cymraeg. Ond tu ôl i hynny, mae eisiau ailedrych ar sut rŷm ni'n meddwl am fodelu a datblygu twf addysg Gymraeg. Yn draddodiadol, rŷm ni wedi bod yn meddwl am orfod cael cyfalaf i sefydlu ysgolion newydd. Does dim sylw wedi cael ei roi i'r syniad o edrych ar ardal drefol; os oes yna rhyw bedair ysgol Saesneg, bod un yn newid i fod yn ysgol Gymraeg dros amser fel bod dim cost cyfalaf, a bod modd datblygu addysg Gymraeg wedyn yn gynt. Y broblem addysg Gymraeg sydd wedi bod yn y cyd-destun yma yw bod ni wedi dibynnu ar ysgolion sydd yn bod, a hwnna'n arafu twf.

Yr angen mawr wedyn yw'r ail bwynt yr hoffwn i ei wneud, sef bod rhaid cynllunio addysg Gymraeg ar lefel llawer mwy meicro. Rŷm ni wedi gwneud astudiaeth yn Abertawe ar ble mae disgyblion yn byw, y rhai sy'n mynd i addysg Gymraeg. Mae'r canrannau sydd yn mynd i addysg Gymraeg o stadau tai cyngor yn 20 y cant, 25 y cant, achos bod ysgol Gymraeg yn y cyffiniau. Mewn ardaloedd lle does dim ysgol Gymraeg yn y cyffiniau, mae'r nifer sy'n mynychu ysgolion Cymraeg tua 4 y cant. Felly, mae'n rhaid edrych ar lefel meicro wrth drafod gyda'r siroedd pa ardaloedd sydd heb ysgol Gymraeg yn y cyffiniau, a'r nod wedyn yw gosod ysgol Gymraeg o fewn gafael hwylus i rieni. Yn gysylltiedig â hwnna, mae materion cludiant, a materion addysg feithrin, a'r cyfan.

Yn olaf wedyn, dŷn ni wedi gweld y Llywodraeth yn dilyn rhaglen STEM, i annog disgyblion i ddilyn pynciau gwyddonol. Mae eisiau cael yr un math o arweiniad i annog athrawon a darpar athrawon i fynd i'r proffesiwn, ac i ddilyn y proffesiwn trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg—rhai o'r pethau y dywedodd Toni nawr. Mae'n rhaid cael rhaglen gyflawn â thipyn o weledigaeth a gwthio y tu ôl i'r peth i gynyddu nifer y staff. Heb bod hwnna'n llwyddo, fydd dim byd yn llwyddo yn y pen draw. I arwain hwn i gyd, mi ddylid cael corff iaith annibynnol sy'n gwthio'r peth yn gryf. Ar hyn o bryd, mae popeth wedi ei rannu rhwng sawl adran, sawl cynllun, sydd ddim wedi eu cydlynu.

Well, I have some 12 things listed [Laughter.] First of all—I will try and stick to three—I agree on the concept of moving schools along the continuum so that bilingual schools become Welsh-medium schools. But underpinning that, we need to reconsider how we think about the development and modeling of Welsh-medium education. Traditionally, we have thought of needing capital to establish new schools. No thought has been given to looking at an urban area; if you have four English-medium schools, that one could change over time to become a Welsh-medium school so there would be no capital cost, and Welsh-medium education could be developed more swiftly. The problem of Welsh-medium education in the past in this context has been that we've relied on existing schools, which has slowed down growth. 

The other point I would like to make is that we need to plan Welsh-medium education at a far more micro level. We've carried out a study in Swansea as to where pupils live—that's those pupils attending Welsh-medium schools. The percentages going to Welsh-medium schools from council estates are around 20 per cent, 25 per cent, because there is a Welsh-medium school nearby. In an area where there is no Welsh-medium school nearby, the numbers attending Welsh-medium education are around 4 per cent. So, we need to look at the micro level in discussing with authorities which areas don't have a local Welsh-medium school, with the aim of placing a Welsh-medium school within convenient reach for parents and pupils. And related to that, there are transport issues, nursery education issues, and so on.

And finally, we have seen the Government following a STEM programme to encourage pupils to study scientific subjects. We need the same encouragement to encourage teachers and prospective teachers to teach through the medium of Welsh—some of the things that Toni mentioned now. We need quite some drive in order to increase the number of staff. If that doesn't succeed, then nothing will succeed, ultimately. Now, leading on all of this, there should be an independent language body that drives this forward strongly. At the moment, everything is dispersed between a number of departments and a number of plans that aren't co-ordinated.

10:55

Pam bod yn rhaid iddyn nhw fod yn annibynnol? Beth sy'n bod ar y Llywodraeth yn gwneud hyn?

Why must they be independent? What's wrong with the Government doing this?

Dydw i ddim yn argyhoeddedig bod y Llywodraeth wedi gweithredu fel y dylai dros yr 20 mlynedd diwethaf. Dŷn ni wedi cael—

I'm not convinced that the Government has acted as it should have done over the past 20 years. We've had—

Jest oherwydd eich bod chi'n anghytuno â'r Llywodraeth, dydy hynny ddim yn meddwl na ddylai'r Llywodraeth wneud hynny. Dyna'r corff democrataidd sydd gyda ni.

The fact that you disagree with the Government doesn't mean that the Government shouldn't act in a particular way. That's the democratic body that we have.

Ie. Wel, dŷn ni wedi cael pump neu chwech o Weinidogion y Gymraeg, a gwahanol flaenoriaethau gyda nhw; gweision sifil yn newid. Does dim gyriant cyffredinol ac amlwg i'r un cyfeiriad wedi bod, yn anffodus.

Yes. Well, we've had five or six Welsh language Ministers, with different priorities; civil servants change. There is no real consistent drive in the same direction, unfortunately.

Wel, dwi'n ategu nifer o'r pwyntiau sydd wedi cael eu rhoi yn barod. Ond o bersbectif rhieni, dwi'n credu ei bod hi'n bwysig iawn i'r naratif ddechrau newid yng Nghymru o ran addysg Gymraeg. Dŷn ni'n dal i weld ein hunain yn gorfod trosglwyddo negeseuon am fanteision dwyieithrwydd, ac fe ddylai hynny fod yn rhywbeth i'r gorffennol. Felly, mae'n rhaid i ni fod yn lot cryfach, yn lot mwy cadarnhaol yn y naratif dŷn ni'n ei drosglwyddo, a hynny o'r top i lawr. Ac yn fwy na hynny, gan fod nawr 22 o awdurdodau lleol â'u cynlluniau unigol, mae yna amrywiaeth eang yn y naratif hynny ar draws, a'r hyder hynny. Felly, dwi'n credu bod yn rhaid i ni weld newid yn y naratif, a sicrhau bod ein disgyblion ni ar draws Cymru yn cael y ddwy iaith mor gynnar ag y gallwn ni, yn digwydd cyn gynted ag y gallwn ni. Mae Heini ac eraill wedi sôn yn barod am arafwch y system fel ag y mae, ac mae hynny'n eithaf pryder i rieni sy'n gweld addysg Gymraeg o hyd fel brwydr, yn hytrach na'i weld e fel y norm. Ac felly, mae angen i ni edrych ar sut dŷn ni'n newid y naratif yn genedlaethol.

Yr ail beth y byddwn i'n moyn ei awgrymu hefyd yw ein bod ni'n dechrau edrych ar ddod ag addysg blynyddoedd cynnar ac ôl-16 i mewn i'r system addysg statudol. Dwi'n credu, heb y ddau begwn yna, yna dydyn ni ddim yn mynd i osod y sail yn y blynyddoedd cynnar a thynnu i mewn yr holl flaengareddau eraill, megis Dechrau'n Deg, megis unrhyw brosiect arall yn y blynyddoedd cynnar sy'n mynd i'r afael â thlodi yn y gymuned, ac ati. Mae'n rhaid i ni ddod â'r rheini at ei gilydd a dangos bod y Gymraeg yn ganolog i'r rheini hefyd. Ond hefyd, yn yr un modd, ôl-16. Achos, os rŷn ni'n sôn am y gweithlu, os nad ydym ni'n sicrhau hygyrchedd a chyrsiau digonol addysg Gymraeg ôl-16, yna dyw'r gweithlu ddim yn mynd i ddod trwyddo. Felly, mae'r elfen ôl-16 yna'n hanfodol.

Ac o ran hygyrchedd, dwi'n gwybod fy mod i ddim yn cael defnyddio geiriau mawr, ond mae 'hygyrchedd' yn air pwysig. Mae e'n golygu sut mae plant yn cyrraedd yr ysgol. Mae yna amrywiaeth anferthol ar hyd a lled Cymru o ran cludiant, ond, yn yr un modd, cludiant i'r blynyddoedd cynnar yn ogystal. Mae yna heriau'n cyd-fynd â hynny, ac rŷn ni'n ymwneud â'r rheini'n ddyddiol.

A'r trydydd peth, efallai, yn flaenoriaeth i ni, yw sicrhau bod addysg Gymraeg yn ganolog i gynlluniau ein hawdurdodau lleol ni, ac nid yn rhyw fath o bolt-on ar yr ochr. Mae'n rhaid i'r cynlluniau fod yn greiddiol i gynigion addysg pob awdurdod lleol. Ar hyn o bryd, mae deddfwriaethau ynghylch addysg dros y lle i gyd; mae'n rhaid i ni gael un man, un Ddeddf sy'n sicrhau bod yr holl heriau hyn, a'n bod ni'n gallu sicrhau bod addysg Gymraeg yn hygyrch ac yn lleol i bob plentyn, o bump oed tan 19.

Well, I echo a number of the points that have already been made. But from the point of view of parents, I think it's important for the narrative to start changing in Wales in terms of Welsh-medium education. We still see ourselves having to pass on messages about the benefits of bilingualism, and that should be something that's relegated to the past. We have to be far more strong and much more positive in the narrative that we transmit, and that's from the top down. And more than that, as there are now 22 local authorities with individual plans, there is a wide variety of narratives across the nation and in terms of that confidence. So, I think we need to see a change in the narrative, and ensure that our pupils across Wales do receive both languages as early as possible, and that that should happen as soon as possible. Heini and others have already talked about the slow pace of the current system, and that is a cause for concern for parents who see Welsh education as a battle rather than the norm. So, we need to look at how we change that narrative nationally.

The second thing that I would want to suggest is that we start looking at bringing early years and post-16 education into the statutory education system. Without those two poles, I don't think we're going to lay that foundation in the early years and draw in all of the other programmes, such as Flying Start, and any other project in the early years that is getting to grips with poverty, for example, in the community, and so on. We need to bring all of those together and show that the Welsh language is at the heart of all of those programmes. But also, in terms of post-16 provision, if we're talking about the workforce, if we don't ensure the accessibility and adequate numbers of courses for Welsh education post-16, then that workforce isn't going to come through. So that post-16 element is vital.

And in terms of accessibility, I know I'm not allowed to use long words, but 'accessibility' is a very important word. It means how pupils reach schools. There's a huge variety across Wales in terms of the provision of transport, but also transport for early years too. There are challenges with regard to that, and we are involved in those challenges on a daily basis.

And a third thing, which is a priority for us, is to ensure that the Welsh language is at the heart of the plans of all our local authorities, and not some kind of bolt-on or add-on. The plans need to be at the heart of the education offer of every local authority. At the moment, legislation with regard to education is all over the shop. We need one central point, one central piece of legislation that ensures that all of these challenges can be faced, and that we ensure that Welsh education is accessible in the local area for every child, from the age of five to 19.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Gaf i holi, felly, os awn ni ar y pwynt olaf—. A diolch i Alun Davies, sy'n ein gadael ni rŵan. Gaf i ofyn, felly, a oes yna eraill ohonoch chi sydd eisiau ychwanegu unrhyw beth? Mae Elin wedi cynnig rhai pethau o ran sut y gallai Llywodraeth Cymru a'r cyrff sy'n bartneriaid gefnogi awdurdodau lleol yn well yn y dyfodol. Oes yna rywun arall efo rhywbeth i'w ychwanegu o ran hynny? Efallai caf i droi at Toni.

Thank you very much. On that final point—. And I thank Alun Davies, who is leaving us now. Could I ask whether anyone would like to add anything? Elin's made some proposals as to how the Welsh Government and its partners can better support local authorities in the future. Does anyone have anything to add in terms of that? Perhaps I could turn to Toni.

11:00

Mae'n rhaid imi ddweud, dwi'n teimlo—efallai fy mod i'n naïf fan hyn—oddi mewn i Lywodraeth Cymru, fod gyda ni bobl sydd â gweledigaeth ac ymrwymiad i newid y drefn, i sicrhau ei bod hi'n drawsnewidiol. Dwi ddim mor sicr bod hyn yn bodoli ymysg swyddogion. Mae'n rhaid imi ddweud bod methiant swyddogion i ymateb i awdurdodau, gan gyrff, fel yr adroddiad a wnaed ar y Gymraeg gan arbenigwyr ail iaith yn 2013, yn sefyllfa bryderus iawn. Felly, un peth y mae angen ei sicrhau yw os oes corff, fel y comisiynydd, neu ryw awdurdod arall, yn rhoi adroddiad gerbron Llywodraeth Cymru, mae angen iddyn nhw gymryd yr argymhellion yna o ddifrif ac ymateb i'r argymhellion yna o fewn cyfnod penodol o amser. Sut yw hi, yn 2013, bod yr adroddiad ail iaith yna wedi nodi'n gwbl glir ei bod hi'n allweddol i weithredu o fewn tair i bum mlynedd i newid yn llwyr y drefn sydd i Gymraeg ail iaith ond bod hwnna ddim wedi digwydd o hyd? Sut yw hi, heddiw, ein bod ni'n clywed Cymwysterau Cymru yn dweud bod y bwlch rhwng ail iaith a iaith gyntaf yn rhy fawr i gael y ddau asesiad yn gorgyffwrdd? Ac eto, yn 2013, roedd yr adroddiad a wnaed ar ail iaith yn dadlau'n gryf y dylid cael y ddau asesiad, arholiad, yn gorgyffwrdd a bod yna ddyfarniad deuol. Gwnaf i eich cyfeirio chi at baragraff 4.38 yn adroddiad ail iaith 2013. Ydy sefyllfa dysgu ail iaith wedi dirywio, neu ydy'r argymhellion a'r adroddiadau yn eich cyrraedd chi yn Llywodraeth Cymru ac rydych chi'n gadael i swyddogion eu cuddio nhw neu eu claddu nhw? Pam nad ydych chi'n gweithredu ar yr argymhellion gan arbenigwyr sydd wedi gwario amser helaeth yn edrych i mewn i'r mater ac yn cynnig ichi ffyrdd ymlaen? Dyna un peth, dwi'n credu, y gallwch chi, fel Llywodraeth Cymru, ofyn ohonoch chi eich hunan. A oes gyda chi'r weledigaeth? Dwi'n credu bod e. A oes gennych chi'r bobl sy'n ymrwymedig i sicrhau bod y Gymraeg yn symud ymlaen? Oes. Pam nad yw e'n digwydd a pham nad ydy o wedi digwydd?

I have to say—and I might be naive here—but I do believe that, within Welsh Government, we do have people who have a vision and a commitment to change the system in order to ensure that it's transformational. I'm not as convinced that that is the case among officials. I have to say that the failure of officials to respond to things, such as the report on second language Welsh by experts in 2013, is very concerning indeed. So, one thing that needs to be ensured is that if a body such as the Welsh Language Commissioner, or some other body, puts forward a report to Welsh Government, they need to take those recommendations seriously and respond to them within a specific period of time. How can it be that, in 2013, we had that report on second language Welsh, and it noted quite clearly that it was crucial to take action within three to five years, to totally transform the Welsh-as-a-second-language system, and that simply hasn't happened? How is it that, today, we hear Qualifications Wales saying that the gap between second language and first language Welsh is too wide to have both assessments overlapping? However, in 2013, the report conducted on second language Welsh argued strongly that both assessments should overlap and that there should be a dual award. I will refer you to paragraph 4.38 in the report on second language Welsh from 2013. Has the situation declined or are those reports and recommendations getting to you in Welsh Government and you are allowing officials just to hide or bury them? Why aren't you taking action on the recommendations made by experts who spent extensive time looking at these issues and providing ways forward for you? That's the one thing that you, as Welsh Government, could ask of yourselves. Do you have the vision? I think so. Do you have the people who are committed to ensuring that the Welsh language develops? Yes. Why isn't it happening and why hasn't it happened?

Diolch, Toni. Mi wnaf i jest ei gwneud hi'n glir, ar gyfer y record, mai'r pwyllgor craffu ydyn ni, nid y Llywodraeth, ond maen nhw'n sicr yn gwestiynau y medrwn ni fynd eu hôl ymhellach, i'r Llywodraeth, fel rhan o'r ymchwiliad hwn. Ond diolch am fod mor glir o ran yr her yna i ni. Heini, gaf i ofyn i chi?

Thank you, Toni. I'll just make it clear, for the record, that we are a scrutiny committee not the Government, but these are certainly questions that we can pursue with the Government as part of this inquiry. But thank you for being so clear in terms of that challenge for us. Heini, may I ask you?

Buaswn i'n ategu i'r hyn mai Toni wedi'i ddweud, ond ymestyn y peth i feysydd eraill. Er enghraifft, yn 2013, cafwyd adroddiad, neu 2011—? Pryd cafwyd adroddiad Dr Elin Jones ar hanes a'r pwysigrwydd o ddysgu corff o wybodaeth gyffredinol i ysgolion? Derbyniwyd hwnna gan bwyllgor ond fe anwybyddodd y Gweinidog nesaf hynny. Yn sgil gwrthod derbyn hanes Cymru—a dwi'n credu bod gwybodaeth o hanes a hunaniaeth yn hollbwysig i ddisgyblion, yn enwedig y rhai yn ysgolion Saesneg, sydd am ddysgu'r Gymraeg, fel bod gyda nhw'r cefndir angenrheidiol—sefydlwyd pwyllgor dylanwadol iawn, yn hollol iawn, hefyd, i hyrwyddo addysg BAME. Mae hwnna wedi'i dderbyn gan y Llywodraeth. Un o'r pethau sydd yn dod allan nawr, i bob ysgol, gan y pwyllgor yna, yw poster yn cynnwys 112 o luniau o bobl ddu, pobl bob lliw. Dau o'r rheiny sydd o Gymru. Maen nhw wedi mynd â'u hagenda hanes nhw i gyfeiriad cwbl Brydeinig a Seisnig, heb roi sylw i Gymru. Ac mae'n rhaid inni gael rhywfaint o gydlynu gweithredu yn y Llywodraeth ei hun—pwy sydd yn gwneud beth, sut ydyn ni'n rhoi y cefndir angenrheidiol i ysgolion Cymru, hynny yw, cynefin, gwlad, Prydain a'r byd? Ond, ar hyn o bryd, dyw hwnna ddim yn gwbl glir yn yr hyn sydd yn digwydd, ac mae'r polisi yna'n cael ei dorri, mewn gwirionedd, yn anffodus iawn, gan y pwyllgor BAME yma.

Ond, wedyn, iawn, mae'r coleg Cymraeg gyda ni—yn allweddol, ddywedwn ni, o ran hyfforddi athrawon a dylanwad ar wahanol golegau addysg. Wel, mae angen i'r Llywodraeth, dwi'n meddwl, roi llawer iawn mwy o bŵer i'r coleg Cymraeg, fel eu bod nhw'n gallu datblygu ar lefel ymarferol nad yw'n bosibl i weision sifil wneud. Rŷn ni, yn y gorffennol, wedi gweld yr un math o beth pan oedd cynllun prentisiaethau 10 mlynedd yn ôl—dim gair am y Gymraeg. Mae hwnna efallai wedi gwella tipyn erbyn hyn. Ond, mae'r meddwl cyffredinol sydd weithiau'n dod allan o'r gwasanaeth sifil yn anwybyddu'r Gymraeg yn llwyr.

Well, I agree with what Toni has said, but to extend it to other fields. For example, in 2013, we had a report, or was it 2011? When did we have the report from Dr Elin Jones on history and the importance of teaching a corpus of general information for schools? That was accepted by the committee, but the next Minister ignored that report. And in light of rejecting the history of Wales—and I think the importance of history and identity is vital for pupils, especially those in English-medium schools, who want to learn Welsh, so that they have the vital background to what they're learning—as a result of that, a very influential committee was established, and rightly so, to promote BAME education. That's been accepted by the Government. One of the things emanating now and which goes to every school as a result of the work of that committee is a poster that shows 112 pictures of people from BAME backgrounds, and two of those are from Wales. They've taken on this history agenda in an entirely British or English direction without emphasising the Welsh aspect. So, we need to have some kind of co-ordination of action within the Government—who does what, how do we provide that vital background to schools in Wales in terms of their locality, nation, Britain and the world? At the moment, that isn't entirely clear in terms of what is happening, and that policy is not being adhered to, unfortunately, in the work of the BAME committee.

But, yes, fine, we have the coleg Cymraeg. It's vital, I would say, in terms of training teachers and influencing different education colleges. But the Government needs to provide greater powers to the coleg Cymraeg, so that they can, on a practical level, develop the work that it is impossible for civil servants to do. In the past, we've seen the same thing when we had the apprenticeships plan 10 years ago—no word of the Welsh language in that. I think it might have improved since then. However, the general mindset that sometimes emanates from the civil service ignores the Welsh language entirely.

11:05

Diolch. Gaf i ofyn, Dyfan, a oes yna rywbeth rydych chi eisiau ei ychwanegu o ran sut y gallai Llywodraeth Cymru a'r cyrff sy'n bartneriaid gefnogi awdurdodau lleol yn well yn y dyfodol?

Thank you. Could I ask you, Dyfan, if there's anything you want to add in terms of how the Welsh Government and its partners can better support local authorities in the future?

Dwi'n meddwl, os gwnaf i ganolbwyntio fy sylwadau'n benodol ar y CSCAau, achos mae'n bwysig, dwi'n meddwl, atgoffa ein hunain mai proses y Llywodraeth ydy hon a chyfrifoldeb y Llywodraeth wedyn ydy llwyddiant y CSCAau. Mae yna risg, dwi'n meddwl, os ydy pethau ddim yn llwyddo neu'n mynd o chwith, fod yna bwyntio bysedd wedyn a bod yna ormod o ddisgwyliad, efallai, ar rai awdurdodau lleol unigol.

Felly, o ran y CSCAau eu hunain, wedyn, mae'r drefn o adolygu a monitro'n bwysig. Mae yna drefniadau adolygu rhwng yr awdurdodau lleol a'r Llywodraeth bob dwy flynedd. Mae yna adolygiad mwy pellgyrhaeddol wedyn ar ôl pump. Mae eisiau deall mwy am hynny, dwi'n meddwl. 

O ran beth y gall y Llywodraeth ei hun wneud wedyn i gefnogi'r awdurdodau lleol, mae yna sawl peth sy'n bosib ac angen eu gwneud o safbwynt polisi, strategaeth, neu ddeddfwriaeth hefyd. Felly, er enghraifft—a rhai o'r pethau rydyn ni wedi sôn amdanyn nhw yn barod—mae angen cryfhau'n sylweddol sail ddeddfwriaethol y categorïau ieithyddol. Mae'n dda bod yna ganllaw yn bodoli, ond mae eisiau sail gadarnach i hynny, dwi'n meddwl, a fydd yn gwneud gwaith yr awdurdodau lleol a'r ysgolion lawer haws. Rydyn ni eisoes wedi sôn am y broses o symud ysgolion ar hyd y continwwm ieithyddol. Eto, mae yna fwy y gall y Llywodraeth wneud yn fanna, dwi'n meddwl, i gefnogi awdurdodau lleol. Felly, dyna'r peth pwysig, dwi'n meddwl, i ni, o ran egwyddor, sef proses Llywodraeth Cymru ydy hon; eu cyfrifoldeb nhw ydy sicrhau ei fod o'n llwyddo, ac, er mwyn sicrhau ei fod o'n llwyddo, mae'n rhaid iddyn nhw roi'r gefnogaeth yna sydd ei angen wedyn ar awdurdodau lleol er mwyn cael nhw i weithredu'n gyson.

Well, I think, if I focus my comments specifically on the WESPs, because it is important to remind ourselves that this is a Government process and it's Government's responsibility as to whether these WESPs succeed or fail. There is a risk, I think, if things don't succeed or go wrong that there will be some finger pointing, and there is too great an expectation, perhaps, on some individual local authorities.

So, in terms of the WESPs themselves, the review and monitoring system is important. There are review arrangements in place between local authorities and the Government on a two-year basis. There is a more far-reaching review after five years. We need to understand more about that, I believe.

In terms of what the Government itself can do to support local authorities, there are a number of things that could be done in terms of policy, strategy, or legislation too. So, for example—and we've already mentioned some things—we need to significantly strengthen the statutory basis of the linguistic categories. It's good that there is guidance in place, but we need a firmer foundation for that, making the work of local authorities and schools far easier. We've already mentioned the process of moving schools along the language continuum. Again, there is more that the Government could do there in supporting local authorities. So, that's the important thing for us in terms of principle, that this is a Welsh Government process; it's their responsibility to ensure that it succeeds, and, to ensure that it does succeed, then they do have to provide that support needed for local authorities so that they can act consistently in this area.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. A oes yna unrhyw beth i'w ychwanegu, Elin?

Thank you very much. Is there anything to add, Elin?

Roeddwn i jest yn moyn nodi pwysigrwydd y fforymau addysg Gymraeg lleol, wrth gwrs, sydd wedi'u llunio, ond hefyd, o bosib, y cyfrifoldeb dwys sydd ar y fforymau yma i fod yn monitro wrth inni fynd ymlaen. Rŷn ni'n ffodus iawn fel mudiad ein bod ni wedi cael lle ar nifer o fforymau'n barod ac wedi cyfrannu at lunio cynlluniau nifer o awdurdodau lleol, ac wedi ymateb i'r 22 a ddaeth. Ond, hefyd, rŷn ni'n teimlo bod y cyfrifoldebau ar y fforymau yma'n rai pwysig. Ac, os nad yw'r mudiadau hynny neu'r cyrff hynny sy'n gallu bod ar y fforymau yma wedi dylanwadu'n barod, yna, 'Lle ydych chi wedi bod?' Mae'r rhain, y fforymau addysg yma, yn allweddol, dwi'n credu, os ydyn ni yn yr interim yn moyn gweld y cynlluniau yma'n llwyddo ac yn rhoi her i awdurdodau lleol.

Ond, dwi'n credu bod rhaid i ni ddod at y cynlluniau yma o ddwy ochr. Mae'n rhaid i'r lleol gael eu llais, ac mae nifer o awdurdodau lleol ag arfer dda gyda'r cynlluniau hyn, ac yr wythnos hon mae nifer o fforymau wedi ailddechrau gyda'r cynlluniau newydd, ac yn weithredol mae yna awydd gwirioneddol i weld y cynlluniau hyn yn cynyddu hygyrchedd ac yn sicrhau twf addysg Gymraeg. Ond, hefyd, mae'n rhaid i ni gael y monitro a'r elfen o Lywodraeth Cymru a'r Senedd yn sicrhau. Dwi'n credu ei bod hi'n bwysig iawn eich bod chi fel Aelodau'r Senedd hefyd yn craffu ar dwf a hynt y cynlluniau hyn yn y blynyddoedd cynharaf yma—y misoedd a'r blynyddoedd cynharaf. Felly, dwi'n credu bod rhaid i ni bwysleisio pwysigrwydd a sicrhau effeithiolrwydd y fforymau addysg Gymraeg yn lleol er mwyn cynorthwyo. Dwi'n gweld y broses hon yn bwysig iawn, fel cywaith bron, yn lleol, ond bod yna fodd hefyd i sicrhau bod pawb yn gwybod beth sy'n digwydd a bod y cynlluniau a'u hynt nhw drwy'r broses yn dryloyw ac yn glir i bawb gael gweld. 

Well, coming back to the importance of the Welsh education fora that have been convened, but also, perhaps, the serious responsibility of these fora to be monitoring as we go forward. We're very fortunate as an organisation that we've had a place on a number of fora already. We've contributed towards the formation of a number of local authorities' plans, and we've responded to the 22 that came forward. But, we also feel that the responsibility on these fora is very important. If those organisations and bodies that are able to participate in these fora haven't already done so and haven't exerted their influence, then where have they been? These fora are vital if, in the interim, we want to see these schemes succeeding and also challenging local authorities.

But, I think we need to come towards these plans from two directions. The local needs to have a voice, and a number of local authorities have good practice in place with regard to these plans, and, this week, a number of the fora have restarted with the new plans and they actively have a genuine desire to see these plans increasing accessibility and ensuring the growth of Welsh education. But, we also need to have that monitoring and that element of Welsh Government and Senedd involvement. I think it's very important that you as Members of the Senedd also scrutinise the growth and progress of these plans in these earlier months and years. So, I think it's important that we emphasise the importance of these fora and ensure their efficacy in order to support this work. I see this process as a very important part of the collaboration at a local level, but there should also be a way to ensure that everyone knows what's happening, and that the plans and their progress through the process are transparent and clear for everyone to see. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Dwi mynd i droi rŵan at gwestiynau Hefin David. Dwi eisiau rhagrybuddio pawb ein bod ni hanner ffordd drwy’r sesiwn yma, gyda hanner awr i fynd, felly gaf i ofyn am gwestiynau ac atebion cryno? Ond, yn amlwg, rydym ni eisiau clywed eich barn yn glir hefyd.

Thank you very much. I'm going to turn now to questions from Hefin David. I want to warn everyone that we are halfway through this session. We have half an hour left, so may I ask for questions and answers that are succinct, please? But, clearly, we do want to hear your views clearly too.

11:10

Allaf i ddychwelyd i'r cylch 10 mlynedd? Fel mae'r tystion wedi dweud, mae 10 mlynedd yn amser hir iawn mewn gwleidyddiaeth. Ydych chi eisiau ychwanegu unrhyw beth am ba mor digonol yw'r fframwaith atebolrwydd a monitro i sicrhau bod awdurdodau lleol yn cyflawni eu huchelgeisiau a'u targedau cynlluniau strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg yn llwyddiannus i gefnogi Cymraeg 2050?

Could I return to the 10-year WESP cycle? As witnesses have said, 10 years is a very long time in politics. Do you have anything to add to your comments as to how adequate the accountability and monitoring framework is in ensuring that local authorities successfully deliver on their WESP ambitions and targets to support Cymraeg 2050?

Gaf i droi'n gyntaf, efallai, at Heini?

If I could turn, first of all, to Heini.

Iawn. Diolch yn fawr iawn am y cwestiwn. Yr hyn sydd ddim yn digwydd yn effeithiol yn y CSCAau yw ymateb i sefyllfaoedd brys neu argyfwng. Mae yna enghreifftiau helaeth o ysgolion yn orlawn. Dyw'r CSCAau yn gwneud dim ar eu cyfer nhw. Yr hyn sy'n digwydd weithiau yw bod awdurdodau yn rhoi mewn CSCA pum mlynedd, neu 10 mlynedd erbyn hyn, yr hyn ddylai gael ei ddatrys ar frys. Felly, mae eisiau llawer iawn mwy o fonitro i ddigwydd ar union sefyllfa ysgolion Cymraeg ar fyrder. Gallwch chi ychwanegu, os mynnwch chi, fod angen cael cynlluniau argyfwng, brys, ac wedyn cynlluniau pum, 10 ac 20 mlynedd—ystod o gynlluniau ar draws y sbectrwm.

Thank you very much for the question. What doesn't happen effectively within the WESPs is responding to urgent or critical situations. There are numerous examples of schools being full to overflowing. The WESPs do nothing to help them. And what happens on occasion is that local authorities will include in their five-year WESPs, or 10-year WESPs as they are now, what should be resolved as a matter of urgency. So, there needs to be far more monitoring on the exact situation of Welsh-medium schools as a matter of urgency. And then you could add, if you like, that you need to have emergency plans, and then five, 10 and 20-year plans. So, you need a range of plans across the spectrum.

Pa mor aml dylid adolygu?

How often do you think that review needs to happen?

Os ŷch chi'n gwahaniaethu’r cynlluniau yn rhai argyfwng, wel, bob blwyddyn. Os ŷch chi'n wedyn yn meddwl am ddatblygiad call ar ôl hynny—targedau—wel, mae pump a 10 ac 20 yn iawn. Ond byddai edrych bob dwy, tair blynedd yn iawn. Ond gyda sefyllfaoedd lle mae ysgolion yn orlawn—ac mae wedi digwydd yn aml iawn, iawn—mae'n rhaid cael adolygiadau blynyddol i wneud yn siŵr bod pethau'n symud ymlaen.

If you are differentiating between the emergency plans and the others, well that needs to happen annually. If you're then thinking about realistic development in the longer term and targets, then five, 10 and 20 are fine. But looking every two or three years would also be fine. But with a situation where schools are full to overflowing—and it's happened far too often—then you do need that annual review to ensure that progress is made.

Elin, ro'n i'n eich gweld chi'n ysgwyd eich pen yn cytuno.

Elin, I saw you agreeing.

Ydw, achos mae'n gwestiwn dwi wedi ei ofyn yn ddiweddar iawn. Y broblem, dwi'n credu, sydd o bosib yn mynd i allu codi yw, fel mae Heini'n sôn, pan fydd yna sefyllfaoedd lle mae'n rhaid i ni ymateb ar frys i rywbeth.

Dwi wastad yn gweld y gwydr yn hanner llawn yn hytrach nag yn hanner gwag—ai dyna'r ffordd rownd? Dwi'n gobeithio bod y cynlluniau hyn yn rhai byw. Hynny yw, os oes yna angen newid ac addasu ar y cynlluniau hyn, mae'n rhaid i awdurdodau lleol fod yn hyblyg iawn gyda'r cynlluniau a bod yn ddigon gonest a dewr a thryloyw i fod yn eu newid nhw wrth i'r angen godi. Rŷn ni'n gwybod, wrth i ysgolion godi ac agor, fod yna ddiddordeb cyffredinol o fewn cymuned sydd yn cefnogi'r ddarpariaeth newydd yna, ac mae hynny wedyn yn golygu bod y rhai sy'n gwneud cais am addysg Gymraeg yn cynyddu yn ogystal. Rŷn ni wedi gweld hynny'n ddiweddar yng Nghasnewydd, er enghraifft, lle rŷn ni wedi agor pedair ysgol gynradd o fewn 15 mlynedd. Felly, mae'n rhaid i ni fod yn barod i fod yn hyblyg—mae'n rhaid i awdurdodau lleol. Ond dwi wedi, yn barod, clywed y naratif, 'Wel, dyw e ddim yn y CSCA.' Ac mae’n rhaid i ni wedyn sicrhau bod ein swyddogion ni ar lawr gwlad yn barod ac yn sylweddoli pwysigrwydd yr hyblygrwydd i ymateb i sefyllfaoedd ar frys. 

Ond hefyd, os caf i ddweud ac ychwanegu, mae angen i'r mecanwaith o gwmpas hefyd fod yn hyblyg. Felly, gyda chyllid, er enghraifft, yn anffodus rŷn ni'n dal i glywed, 'Rŷn ni ffaelu gwneud hynny—does dim digon o gyllid', neu, 'Dyw hwn ddim yn rhan o gynllun band B; mae e’n rhan o fand C'. Wel, dyw band C ddim wedi cael ei nodi na'i gyhoeddi eto. Felly, hynny yw, mae'n rhaid i ni wneud yn siŵr hefyd, os oes yna anghenion, fod y mecanwaith o gwmpas yno er mwyn sicrhau bod y twf yn gallu digwydd.  

Yes, because it is a question I've asked very recently. The problem, I think, that perhaps might arise, as Heini has said, is when there are situations where we have to respond urgently to a particular issue.

I always see the glass as being half full rather than half empty—I think that's the right way round. I hope that these plans are live plans, so that if there is a need to change or adapt a plan, then the local authorities will need to be very flexible with their plans and be honest and brave and transparent enough to adapt them as the need arises. We know that, as schools are built and open, there is general interest within a community that supports that new provision, and that then means that the numbers applying for a place in Welsh-medium education increases too. We've seen that recently in Newport, for example, where we've opened four primary schools within 15 years. So, we do have to be willing and ready to be flexible—local authorities need to. But I've already heard the narrative, 'Well, it's not in the WESP.' And we have to then ensure that our officials on the ground are ready and realise the importance of that flexibility to respond to urgent situations. 

But also, if I may also add, the mechanism and machinery around the WESPs need to be flexible too. So, with funding, for example, unfortunately we still hear, 'We can't do that because there is insufficient funding', or, 'This isn't part of a band B plan; it's part of band C'. Well, band C hasn't been set out or published yet. So, we need to ensure too that if there are needs, that the machinery around the WESP is in place to ensure that the growth can happen. 

Diolch. Oes gan Toni neu Dyfan rywbeth i'w ychwanegu? Toni. Os caf i ofyn ichi ailddechrau, oherwydd doedden ni ddim yn eich clywed chi.

 

Thank you. Do Toni or Dyfan have anything to add? Toni. Sorry, if you could start again; your mike was muted. 

11:15

Diolch. Mae yna bedwar peth yn benodol dwi eisiau cyfeirio atyn nhw. Yn y lle cyntaf, mae angen fframwaith statudol cryf. Dyna pam mae angen Deddf addysg Gymraeg newydd. Yn ail, mae angen cynlluniau gweithredu. Yn ogystal â'r cynllun 10 mlynedd, mae angen cynlluniau gweithredu fesul blwyddyn, i'w cael eu hadolygu ar ôl tair blynedd gan awdurdodau lleol, ac i gael eu harolygu gan gorff fel Estyn. Nid bod pob awdurdod yn cael eu harolygu bob tair blynedd, ond yn sicr, bob tair blynedd, dylai fod yna arolygiad o glwstwr o awdurdodau lleol i weld i ba raddau maen nhw yn symud pethau ymlaen. Mae hynny'n rhoi cyfle wedyn i'r cynlluniau strategol fod yn fwy strategol, yn fwy uchelgeisiol, ac yn wir, i godi disgwyliadau. Un peth sydd yn tristáu wrth edrych dros yr adroddiadau CSCA dŷn ni wedi'u gweld yw bod y disgwyliadau mor isel. A dyma un o'r pethau mwyaf damniol am addysg yng Nghymru—bod ein disgwyliadau ni yn rhy isel. Dyma un ffordd o newid hynna. A gyda llaw, mae'r drefn yna o gynllun strategol, cynlluniau gweithredu yn flynyddol, ac arolygu rheolaidd eisoes ar waith mewn awdurdodau lleol mewn meysydd eraill. Ac fel rhywun a weithiodd mewn awdurdod am gyfnod o 12 mlynedd, mae'n gwbl ymarferol i weithredu cynllun o'r fath. 

Thank you. There are four specific things I'd like to refer to. First of all, we need a strong statutory framework. That's why we need a new Welsh language education Act. Secondly, we need action plans. As well as the 10-year plan, we need action plans on a year-by-year basis, to be reviewed after three years by the local authority, and to be inspected by a body such as Estyn. Not that every authority would be inspected every three years, but certainly, every three years, there should be an inspection of a cluster of local authorities to see to what extent they are making progress. That then gives an opportunity for the strategic plans to be more strategic, more ambitious, and indeed, to raise expectations. If there's anything that depresses one in looking over the WESPs that we have seen, it's that the expectations set out are so disappointing. And that's one of the most damning things about Welsh-medium education—that our expectations are too low. And this is one way of changing that. And by the way, that system of a WESP, and an annual action plan, and regular inspection is already in place in local authorities in other areas. And as one who worked in a local authority for 12 years, it is entirely practical to implement such a plan. 

Jest yn gryno, yn y lle cyntaf, rydyn ni'n croesawu'r cynlluniau 10 mlynedd; roedden nhw'n rywbeth y gwnaethon ni ofyn amdano fo. Mae hynny yn galluogi cynllunio mwy strategol. Rŷn ni'n croesawu hefyd y deilliannau clir sydd yn y fframwaith y tro hwn. Wedi dweud hynny, fel mae rhai o'r tystion eraill wedi'i ddweud, mae yna bryderon ynglŷn â sut yn union bydd hynny'n cael ei weithredu. Beth rydyn ni wedi ei weld yn barod efo rhai o'r drafftiau ydy bod yna lot o fanylder yn y ddwy, tair, pedair blynedd cyntaf, ond bod y cynlluniau ar ôl hynny yn fwy annelwig. I fod yn deg â'r awdurdodau lleol, efallai ei bod hi'n anoddach iddyn nhw fod mor fanwl wrth symud ymlaen. Mae peth—on nid popeth—o'r cynlluniau yn ddibynnol ar gyllid hefyd. 

Yn sicr mae angen monitro blynyddol. Oherwydd natur y cynlluniau, mae angen adolygiad llawn, pellgyrhaeddol ar ôl pum mlynedd, hanner ffordd drwy'r cyfnod 10 mlynedd. Peth arall mae angen cadw golwg arno fo hefyd wrth gwrs ydy dydy'r fframwaith a'r strwythur sy'n bodoli ar hyn o bryd ddim yn derfynol; dydy o ddim yn gyflawn. Mae yna lot o bethau, gobeithio, yn mynd i newid dros y flwyddyn neu ddwy nesaf—y Bil addysg a rhai o'r pethau rydyn ni wedi cyfeirio atyn nhw yn barod. Bydd rhaid i'r CSCA adlewyrchu ac ymateb i hynny hefyd. Felly, yn sicr, mae angen trefn monitro ac adolygu llawn. 

Just briefly, in the first instance, we welcome these 10-year plans; that's something that we asked for. That enables more strategic planning to take place. We welcome too the clear outputs in the framework this time around. Having said that, as some of the other witnesses have already said, there are concerns about how exactly that will be implemented. What we've already seen in terms of the current drafts is that there is great detail in the first two, three, four years, but the plans after that are more ambiguous. To be fair to the local authorities, perhaps it's harder for them to be as detailed in moving forward. Also, parts—but not all—of the plans are related to funding. 

Certainly, there is a need for annual monitoring. Because of the nature of the plans, we need a full, far-reaching review after five years, halfway through that 10-year cycle. Another thing that we need to keep an eye on too of course is that the framework and the current structure isn't conclusive; it isn't complete. There are other things, hopefully, that will change over the next two or so years—the education Bill and some of the other things that we referred to. The WESPs will need to reflect and respond to that too. So, we certainly need a monitoring and review system that is fulsome. 

Diolch. Hefin, oes gennych chi gwestiwn?

Thank you. Hefin, do you have a question? 

A yw'r cynlluniau strategol yn gwneud cysylltiadau digonol â pholisïau addysgol strategol eraill, er enghraifft y fframwaith gwella ysgolion neu'r cwricwlwm newydd i Gymru?

Do the WESPs make sufficient links with the other strategic educational policies, for example the revised school improvement framework or the new Curriculum for Wales?

Diolch. A gaf fi ofyn am atebion cryno fan hyn os gwelwch yn dda? A gaf fi ddechrau efo Dyfan?

Thank you. Can I ask for succinct answers here? If I could start with Dyfan. 

Na, ddim yn ddigonol; mae yna le i gryfhau'r cysylltiadau yna, yn sicr. Pan mae'n dod i rai o'r pethau rydyn ni wedi'u trafod yn barod, fel y cwricwlwm, mae yna le i gryfhau. Mae yna gysylltiadau da efo rhai elfennau. Y cynllun hyfforddi athrawon 10 mlynedd rydyn ni wedi sôn amdano fo—mae yna dipyn o orgyffwrdd yn fanna. Ac yn y canllaw CSCA hefyd, mae yna well cyswllt, rydyn ni'n teimlo, efo targedau 'Cymraeg 2050' nag oedd yn bodoli o'r blaen. Felly, mae hynny'n well, ond yn sicr, mae yna le i wella'r cysylltiadau efo rhai meysydd allweddol eraill—y cwricwlwm yn enghraifft dda o hynny. 

No, not adequately; there is space to strengthen the links. When it comes to some of the things that we've already discussed, such as the curriculum, there is room for improvement and strengthening. There are good connections with some elements. The 10-year teacher training plan that we've already mentioned—there is some overlap there. And in the WESP guidance, there is better link-up with the 'Cymraeg 2050' targets than previously existed. So, that has improved, but certainly, there is room for further improvement to links with other key areas—the curriculum is a good example of that. 

Oes yna unrhyw un arall a fyddai'n hoffi ychwanegu? Toni. 

Would anybody else like to add anything on that? Toni.

Dwi'n cytuno gyda beth ddywedodd Dyfan. Dwi'n credu bod y methiant i gael y cyswllt cwricwlaidd yn wendid eithaf sylfaenol. Ond dwi'n credu hefyd bod angen sicrhau'r cysylltiadau gyda'r cyfnodau y tu allan i'r oed statudol—gyda'r cyfnod cyn ysgol, ac yn arbennig y cyfnod ôl-ysgol. Un o'r methiannau mawr yn y drefn bresennol yw bod pobl yn mynd i addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, a bod diffyg dilyniant o'r sector ysgol i'r sector addysg ôl-16 yn y sector addysg bellach, ac yn wir, i raddau llai, yn y sector addysg uwch. Felly, mae angen y cydlyniant yna y tu hwnt i jest yr hyn sydd yn ofynnol yn statudol.

I agree with Dyfan's comments. I think the failure to get the linkage with the curriculum is a fundamental flaw. But I also think we need to secure those links with the non-statutory sector, particularly the pre-school and post-school sectors. One of the great failings of the current system is that even for those going to Welsh-medium education, there is a lack of continuity from the school sector to the post-16 sector in further education, and, to a lesser extent, in the higher education sector. So, you need that co-ordination beyond what's a statutory requirement.

11:20

Dwi'n gwybod bod nifer o ysgolion Cymraeg wedi bod yn ysgolion arweiniol o ran datblygu'r cwricwlwm newydd, ond dyw hwnna ddim yn ymwneud o gwbl â'r CSCA fel y mae ar hyn o bryd. Does dim rôl yn cydberthyn y rheini â'i gilydd. Yr unig beth ddywedwn i yw bod angen i'r Llywodraeth wneud yn hollol siŵr bod, yn y cwricwlwm newydd, wybodaeth iawn am hanes Cymru ac am ddiwylliant Cymru a beth yw Cymru. Dyw hwnna ddim yno ar hyn o bryd, ac mae angen i'r Gweinidog addysg roi sylw mawr i hwnna. Os yw hwnna yn y cwricwlwm, wedyn bydd modd cydgysylltu hwnna â'r CSCAau.

I know that a number of Welsh-medium schools have been pioneer schools in terms of developing the new curriculum, but that doesn't involve the WESP as it is at the moment. There is no role in terms of that linkage. The only other thing that I would say is that the Government needs to make sure that, in the new curriculum, there is the correct information about the culture and history of Wales, what Wales is. That isn't there at the moment, and the education Minister needs to give attention to that issue. If that is in the curriculum, then we can link that up with the WESPs.

Rwy'n cytuno gydag awgrymiadau eraill y bore yma, ond rwy'n credu bod yn rhaid inni ystyried pwysigrwydd anghenion dysgu ychwanegol. Tra bod yna ddeilliant penodol yn y CSCA, mae'n rhaid inni hefyd barchu'r ffaith bod yna Fil penodol arall ar wahân hefyd, sydd yn sicrhau y ddarpariaeth honno. Mae'r Bil yn nodi'n glir yr angen am ddarpariaeth ddwyieithog.

Os ewch chi drwy'r cynlluniau fel y maen nhw, yn neilliant 6 fe welwch chi wendid y cynlluniau hynny. Dydyn nhw ddim yn agos o gwbl at fodloni'r Bil. Felly, mae'n rhaid inni edrych ar hynny ar fyrder, ac rŷn ni wedi gofyn i'r Gweinidog yn benodol i gynnal ymgynghoriad i edrych ar y gwahaniaethau sydd rhwng darpariaethau ar draws y siroedd i gefnogi ein teuluoedd ni. Ddylai diffyg darpariaeth ddim fod yn fater mwyach. Mae ein hysgolion ni yn ymateb i bob angen sydd yn dod i'r ysgol. Ddylai hynny ddim fod yn rhwystr i blant fod yn cael mynediad at addysg Gymraeg. Felly, mae'n rhaid, ar fyrder, edrych ar y Bil hwnnw law yn llaw a deilliant 6 y CSCA. 

I would agree with the suggestions made by others this morning, but I do also think that we need to consider the importance of additional learning needs. Whilst there is a specific outcome in the WESP, we must also respect the fact that there is a separate Bill that ensures that that provision is in place. The Bill does clearly note the need for bilingual provision in that sector.

If you go through the WESPs as they are, you will see the weakness of those plans in outcome 6. They are nowhere near ensuring that the Bill is satisfied. So, we need to look at that as a matter of urgency, and we have asked the Minister specifically to hold a consultation to look at the differences between provision across counties in order to support our families. Lack of provision shouldn't be an issue any longer. Our schools respond to all needs within those schools. That should be no barrier for children accessing Welsh-medium education. So, as a matter of urgency, we need to look at that Bill along with outcome 6 of the WESP.

Mae gen i signed copy o lyfr hanes Elin Jones, am y cofnod. 

I have a signed copy of Elin Jones's history book, for the record.

Da iawn. Tic mawr i Hefin.

Well done. A big tick for Hefin.

Ydy. Plỳg i lyfr ardderchog Elin Jones, felly, sydd wedi cael ei ddarparu i bob ysgol yng Nghymru hefyd drwy'r cytundeb cydweithio. 

Gaf i droi rŵan at gwestiynau Sioned Williams, os gwelwch yn dda?

It is. A plug for the excellent book written by Elin Jones, which has been provided to every school in Wales as well, through the co-operation agreement.

May I turn now to questions from Sioned Williams, please?

Diolch yn fawr. Gadeirydd, dylwn i fod wedi datgan ar y dechrau buddiant o ran fy mod i yn aelod o Gymdeithas yr Iaith.

Thank you very much. Chair, I should have declared at the beginning an interest in that I am a member of Cymdeithas yr Iaith.

Dwi'n rhannu'r un buddiant hwnnw, wedyn mi wnaf i ychwanegu hynny i'r record hefyd.

I share that same interest, so I will add that to the record too.

Diolch. Hoffwn i gael eich barn chi'n benodol am sut mae'r CSCAau yn cyfrannu, neu ddim yn cyfrannu yn ddigonol, at ddatblygu darpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg o fewn o sector cyfrwng Saesneg. Yw e'n glir yn y cynlluniau? Wnaethoch chi, Elin, sôn yn gynharach am sut ddylai darpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg fod yn greiddiol i'r cynnig addysg yn gyffredinol ym mhob awdurdod lleol. Fe wnaethoch chi yn eich tystiolaeth ysgrifenedig, Heini, roi enghraifft i ni, a buaswn i'n hoffi efallai pe baech chi'n gallu ymhelaethu tipyn bach ar yr enghraifft o ran sut yng Nghastell-nedd Port Talbot mae yna ddatblygiadau wedi bod sydd efallai yn mynd ar draws y CSCA yn yr awdurdod yna. Heini, ydych chi eisiau dechrau?

Thank you. I would like to hear your views specifically on how the WESPs contribute or don't contribute adequately to the development of Welsh-medium provision within the English-medium sector. Is it clear in the plans? You, Elin, spoke earlier about how Welsh-medium provision should be heart of the education offer in every local authority. You in your written evidence, Heini, gave us an example, and I'd like it if you could expand a little bit on that example, in terms of how in Neath Port Talbot there have been developments that run contrary to the WESP in that authority. Heini, do you want to start?

Mae datblygiadau mewn ysgolion Saesneg yn gallu effeithio'n fawr ar ddatblygiadau ysgolion Cymraeg. Os yw ysgol Saesneg yn cael ei sefydlu, bydd hynny o reidrwydd yn cael effaith ar y ddarpariaeth Gymraeg yn yr ardal honno. Mae yna enghraifft ddiweddar—efallai bydd Elin yn sôn am Ben-y-bont—lle'r oedd yna ddiffyg ymgynghori wrth sefydlu ysgol Saesneg, a hynny o reidrwydd wedyn yn mynd i gael dylanwad ar addysg Gymraeg. Roedd diffyg ymgynghori o ran effaith hynny ar y Gymraeg. Digwyddodd yr un peth, neu mae e ar ganol digwydd, yng Nghastell-nedd Port Talbot: cynnig i sefydlu ysgol gynradd Saesneg fawr ym Mhontardawe, gyda 700 o blant. Byddai hynny'n golygu cau tair neu bedair ysgol gynradd Saesneg. Ond, yn y cyffiniau, mae Ysgol Gynradd Gymraeg Trebannws, Ysgol Gynradd Gymraeg Pontardawe, ar y cyfan mewn adeiladau digon diffygiol. A byddai cael ysgol gynradd fawr Saesneg ar lawr y cwm gyda phwll nofio a phob adnodd arall yn rhwym o ddenu plant. Byddai hwnna, yn ei dro, yn andwyol i addysg Gymraeg.

Mae yna adolygiad barnwrol—gall Elin sôn fwy am hwnna mewn munud—lle rydyn ni'n disgwyl bod Castell-nedd, wrth beidio ag ymgynghori ar effaith hynny ar y Gymraeg yn llawn, yn mynd i gael ei feirniadu gan y tribiwnlys. Ond, dyw datblygiadau ysgolion Saesneg ddim ar hyn o bryd yn rhan o'r CSCA fel y cyfryw. Does dim sôn am beth fyddai dylanwad codi ysgol Saesneg ar dwf addysg Gymraeg yn yr ardaloedd hynny. Mae'n gwestiwn wedyn a ydy addysg yng Nghymru yn gallu datblygu, ydy twf addysgol yn Saesneg yn gallu cael ei sefydlu heb rwystr heb ystyriaeth o'r effaith ar y Gymraeg. Mae yna le cryf i ddadlau y dylai'r CSCA orfodi awdurdodau lleol i roi ystyriaeth i beth yw dylanwad ieithyddol unrhyw ysgol sydd yn cael ei sefydlu ganddyn nhw. 

Developments in English-medium schools can have a great impact on the development of Welsh-medium schools. If an English-medium school is established, then that will have an impact on the Welsh-medium provision in that area. There is a recent example—Elin might mention Bridgend—where there was a lack of consultation in establishing an English-medium school, and that obviously had an impact on Welsh-medium education. There was a lack of consultation on the impact of that on the Welsh language. The same thing happened, or it is happening, in Neath Port Talbot as we speak: a proposal to establish a large English-medium primary school in Pontardawe with 700 children. That would lead to the closure of three or four English-medium primary schools. But, in the same area, we have Ysgol Gynradd Gymraeg Trebannws, Ysgol Gynradd Gymraeg Pontardawe, which generally speaking are in buildings of poor quality. Having a large new English-medium school at the bottom of the valley, with a swimming pool and so on and so forth, is bound to attract children to it. And that in turn would be detrimental to Welsh-medium education. 

There is a judicial review—and Elin can tell you more about that in a moment—where we expect that Neath Port Talbot in not having consulted on the impact of those proposals on the Welsh language in full will be criticised by the tribunal. But the development of English-medium schools aren't currently included within the WESPs as such. There is no mention of the impact of building an English-medium school on the growth of Welsh-medium education in those areas. It's a question then as to whether education in Wales can develop, whether English-medium schools can be developed without any barriers, without consideration being given to the Welsh language. And one could make a strong argument that the WESPs should require local authorities to give consideration to the linguistic impact of any new school that they open.

11:25

Diolch. Mae'n ddrwg gen i, rydyn ni yn y chwarter awr olaf. Oes yna bethau yr hoffai Elin, efallai, eu hychwanegu?

Thank you. I'm sorry, we are in the last 15 minutes. Is there anything that Elin would like to add?

Fe wna i efallai ychwanegu ambell i enghraifft arall. Mae hyn, yn amlwg, yn rhywbeth rŷn ni'n gorfod bod yn graff iawn yn ei gylch e, achos yn aml iawn mae yna ddatblygiadau o fewn addysg cyfrwng Saesneg mewn ardaloedd sy'n digwydd heb ein bod ni fel mudiad o reidrwydd yn gwybod amdanyn nhw. Oherwydd bod gymaint o waith gyda ni yn edrych ar sicrhau twf mewn addysg Gymraeg, dydyn ni weithiau ddim yn sylweddoli bod effeithiau ar rai cynlluniau o fewn addysg cyfrwng Saesneg yn cael effaith andwyol ar y Gymraeg. Felly, mae angen mecanwaith. Mae gyda ni fecanwaith o fewn y cod trefniadaeth ysgolion sydd yn nodi'r angen pan yn ymgynghori ar unrhyw newid, a'n dealltwriaeth a'n dehongliad ni—ac wrth gwrs mae hynny ar hyn o bryd yn nwylo barnwr—yw y dylid bod yn ystyried yr effaith ar y Gymraeg pan yn ystyried unrhyw ddatblygiadau newydd. 

Beth sydd wedi digwydd, yn ddiddorol, yw ein bod ni wedi herio penderfyniadau fel hyn ac wedi ymateb i ymgynghoriadau mewn nifer o siroedd. Yn sir Fynwy, digwyddodd e gydag ymestyn niferoedd yn ardal Cil-y-coed. A phan h