National Assembly for Wales

Good morning and welcome to today's meeting of the Children, Young People, and Education Committee. The Chair is unable to attend today's meeting, therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 17.22, I call for nominations for a temporary Chair for today's meeting. Laura.

Ken Skates.

Ken Skates. Thank you. I see that there are no other nominations. I therefore declare that Ken Skates MS has been appointed temporary Chair and I invite him to chair the meeting.

Thank you. And first of all, thanks for electing me as your temporary Chair.

I'd like to welcome Members and the public to today's meeting of the Children, Young People, and Education Committee. The public items, obviously, of this meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, with all participants joining via video-conference, and a Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptations relating to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place. The meeting is bilingual and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Jayne Bryant, as we've heard, is unable to attend today and she's sent her apologies. Laura Jones will be absent for item 4 and following her questions on item 3. Peter Fox is substituting today for James Evans, and Sioned Williams will be leaving after item 6. Are there any declarations of interest from Members? No.

In that case, we'll move on to item 2: peer-on-peer sexual harassment amongst learners, and this is evidence session 6. I'd like to begin by welcoming the witnesses: Laura Doel, director of the National Association of Head Teachers Cymru; also, Chris Parry from the same organisation; and Eithne Hughes, director of the Association of School and College Leaders Cymru. We have a large number of questions that we'd like to ask you today. Thank you for attending. We'll begin with Sioned Williams.

Perhaps Laura. Would you like to begin? Is that okay? Thank you.

Yes, that's absolutely fine. And thank you to the committee for inviting NAHT to make representations today.

I think, first of all, what we'd like to say is that we recognise that there is a problem in schools across Wales. I think what the Estyn report failed to contextualise is that, actually, the report focused on what we actually knew and not what we don't know. So, the extent of the problem, I think, is very difficult to summarise. I think what we can say is that a significant amount of work is already being done to address some of these problems. I know that the committee has discussed this previously and I think what's important to recognise is that whilst schools have a huge responsibility in this area, and, indeed, a moral responsibility, as we all do, to support learners, children and young people who feel that they are victims of peer-to-peer sexual harassment, I think we need to look at this in the wider context of a societal issue. Schools have, like I say, a significant role to play and do so to the upmost of their abilities, but I think what we need to look at is what additional support can be offered for schools to do this work, and also how we are going to address the wider problems.

Again, thank you to the committee. From the perspective of the Association of School and College Leaders Wales, we're pleased to be here to discuss this extremely important issue, which I think is all-pervasive and permeates through society. Schools are clearly a microcosm of societal problems, and I think that's a fairly obvious point. I hope you've received our report on this. I'm sure you'll have had time to look at it. It was report that was jointly produced with ASCL as part of the partnership looking into detailed evidence-based research on this particular area. You ask about the scale, and I think the scale—. As Laura quite rightly said, this is societal, and, if you like, schools become a pressure cooker for some of those issues as well. I would say as well that leaders are doing their very best. There is a long way that people have travelled around this particular issue, and it is important that we keep this in our sights and that we can do better still. There is lots more that can be done with regard to this particular agenda. Thank you.

I'm happy to come back in and respond to that, Sioned. I think, from our perspective, we are seeing the range of behaviour evolve, I suppose I would say. So, of course, with the prevalence of social media and various different ways of communicating, a problem that was maybe a face-to-face issue previously has certainly expanded to something far beyond, I think it's fair to say, what teachers, school leaders and parents are aware of. It's extremely difficult for anyone with children to know exactly the extent of this. The Estyn report highlighted this—you know, it was, '"We don't tell our teachers"'. I think that makes it an incredibly challenging issue to tackle. I'm keen to bring my colleague Chris in on this, as a serving secondary lead.

Just to add to the conversation, really, and probably a little bit of a unique insight into the issue. I'm a serving secondary headteacher, and I'm the headteacher of a single-sex boys school, probably the last one in Wales, but we've got a mixed sixth form as well. This remains an incredibly important issue for us. In terms of identifying its importance within our day-to-day practice, I think, as a head of a school, what we often do is we respond to community, and I think, clearly, over the last year, or two or three years, this issue has increasingly risen up our agenda and is something that we need to be looking at inside school. You know, everybody's talked about the scale of the problem. I'd have no reason to contend the issues that Estyn raise, where they said around 60 per cent of girls were experiencing harassment and about 80 per cent of girls have witnessed that. I think that probably underestimates the fact that most people within schools will have experience of, or at least witnessed, or can describe, an incident where they've felt uncomfortable or saw those issues.

I think, really, the things that schools are trying to do at the minute are very much starting with two things, probably. One of them is around awareness raising and really making sure that all the tools that we've got in schools to look at issues like this are being used. An example for us would be that we work closely with the White Ribbon campaign to make sure that we support all campaigns that they're running around domestic violence particularly—we've invited them into school, we use them in assemblies, they talk to our pupils, but we also use our social media platforms to highlight the campaigns that they've got. I think that can be quite effective and it raises those issues with pupils and allows us to have those discussions. But I think one of the things that I would focus on in this as well is that all of those awareness-raising campaigns are really, really important and they do allow us to highlight the issues to pupils and to the community about what we think is important, but, ultimately, it's about providing space within the school environment for young people to have those conversations with people they trust where they're able to disclose information.

I think, in the past, what has happened, because incidents like this have been normalised—. I don't think they've been normalised, I think they were always normal, and what we're trying to do is 'unnormalise' them. What we need to be able to do is allow young people to be in trusting relationships with adults where they can begin to talk about these things and highlight why they're an issue. Because I think in other areas of school practice, around bullying and around other kinds of areas—for example, in recent years, substance misuse—pupils have become increasingly confident that they can talk about those issues. Now we are saying this is important, I think young people will find those opportunities as long as we can provide them the space and the personnel to be able to talk with them. I think that's the crucial thing, because we can talk about these issues as much as we want in assemblies and on social media, but the bulk of the work takes place in face-to-face conversations.

Just to come back to the issue of the pandemic, that is something that we very much missed over the last two years, because we haven't had the ability to sit down with young people face to face inside school. I think we have all suffered because of that, although I would highlight that probably one of the things that secondaries are now better at is that their conversations and relationships with parents have developed and deepened because, literally, we've been in their homes in terms of giving online lessons, and we've had to invest in procedures in schools to make sure that we were contacting parents, that we were identifying pupils who are vulnerable. So, we've spent a lot of time talking to those parents over the recent two years, and I think, through that, we've learned a lot more about the things that that are going on. Sorry, that was a lot.

Yes. I would certainly agree that this is a significant problem in schools, it's a significant problem in society. I think the idea of it being normalised is absolutely where we are at the moment, sadly, where young people probably don't even see the fact when they receive inappropriate pictures on social media, on their phones in whatever shape that takes, whether it is on Snapchat or whatever, Instagram, that, actually, there is so much of it that they just normalise it themselves and don't actually know that it is a problem and that it is inappropriate. So, it is all of those image-based abuse and harassment media platforms that I think, also, are part of the issue that needs to be addressed in schools. We need to look at media literacy, we need to unpick what is right, what is wrong, what is correct, what is normal within a healthy sexual relationship and what is not acceptable within a healthy sexual relationship.

The business of misogyny, I think, is something that does need to be pulled through all of this, and it's not to say that we need to demonise boys, because that's the last thing we need to do. We need to be working with young people, not either accusing or victimising them, but, actually, it's about raising awareness, giving them a language so that they can speak around this particular agenda so that they can have those open conversations and actually say, 'This is not right, this is not correct.' That's the big challenge that we have. I think, as a society, sometimes, we don't even see it ourselves. We walk into a shop, and we don't see that all the mannequins that are there in the women's section are a size 8 and look absolutely perfect. We walk past them and don't see that there are images that are curated on media that we see every single day that actually set us up for this particular kind of agenda.

I'm happy to come in on that and then let Eithne come in. I think that's a really important point, because a lot of this kind of behaviour, as you would imagine, happens outside of the school gates because there's almost a restriction in place in schools when it comes to the use of mobile phones et cetera, so that schools can manage what happens within the school environment. It's incredibly hard to be able to react to things that go on outside of school. I think one of the things that we would highlight is that it is so vital to make sure that there is a whole-community, societal approach to tackling this issue, because if schools respond to what happens in schools that's one thing, but if other services—social services, police, parents, youth workers—are involved, know of these situations, it's crucial that there's that mechanism for evidence sharing and information sharing. Because what happens outside of school is very much reflected in school and vice versa, and I think that is an area that we can all explore to make sure that those policies and processes are in place so that that information is shared across the piece and we can help each other in tackling some of these issues. 

Diolch. 

Diolch, Sioned. Laura Jones.

Sorry—Eithne.

I think, certainly as a serving head, we dreaded a Monday morning because at the weekend there were all sorts of issues around social media that washed back into school. Schools can't be responsible for everything that happens in a home—clearly, it would be impossible. But there has to be a bit of a multi-agency approach to this particular problem. It's got to be about better resources. The diminution of resources over the last years, I think, has had an effect where you have got social workers who are thin on the ground, you've got ed psychs who are unavailable, school counsellors who are like hen's teeth, and you've got police liaison officers who, again, are brilliantly effective, but it isn't always easy to get hold of a police liaison officer when you wish to have that. It's got to be a multi-agency approach to this particular issue; schools cannot do this on their own.

Diolch. Laura.

Thank you, Chair. I'd like to just ask you a few questions on the causes and impact of peer-on-peer sexual harassment. As Eithne and Laura have just said, it is a societal issue, but we do know it's obviously prevalent in schools. But, unfortunately, as Laura said, this is just the tip of the iceberg—we're only seeing the evidence that is collected, and that is a major problem, as we know. So, we can just deal with what we see, and I'm sure it's a lot bigger than it is. What do you think are the main causes of the increase in peer-on-peer sexual harassment? To what extent do you think that one of the causes could possibly be accessing online and inappropriate content, pornography and that sort of thing? To what degree do you think that that's been exacerbated by the pandemic and the amount of time that children and young people spent on their computers during the lockdowns? Thank you.

I think I'm going to go back to the report that we circulated to the panel that looked specifically at this particular issue, the image sharing online that is part of the sexual harassment and part of the sexual abuse agenda that we're discussing here. The report does clearly highlight the fact that this has become more prevalent. It is normalised for females to receive pornographic images, and so many that, actually, they don't see them any more to be problematic. They're concerned about talking about it, they're concerned about actually bringing it to anybody's attention, because it is part of normal life as they see it as a young person, which is really dreadfully sad. So, I think part of that desensitisation is there as a consequence of the volume of this kind of imagery that young people are receiving at the moment. But we also have—. I go back to the comment about misogyny, about desensitisation around misogyny, about not seeing it, not knowing that it is a problem because it is so prevalent.

I think over lockdown there has been, I think, intuitively we can say, with learners not being able to interact face to face, more interaction online of this sort, possibly as a consequence, and that evidence is there in the report that we've shared with you for you to have a look at. So, it is a significant issue. The causes are societal, the causes are part of that confusion of young people, of not actually knowing that it is a problem and, of course, what we're looking at is how to actually get at fixing this or solving it or bringing it to the top of an agenda for young people to know that it just isn't right.

Thank you. Laura, did you want to say anything?

I would just echo the comments that Eithne's raised, and I think Chris raised it earlier—we're almost trying to de-normalise this kind of behaviour, and, while schools are doing some terrific work around this, I think we need to look more broadly at what other people and what other organisations and sectors of society can do to support this work, because it's very difficult for schools to work in isolation on this. I think we're all in agreement that this is a societal challenge, and there needs to be an approach that looks at how we tackle this on a much broader scale than just focusing on what schools can do.

Thank you. From what you've seen, and from what you've heard, how do you think that this sort of exposure to inappropriate content online, for example, is creating unhealthy attitudes towards relationships and sexuality? I think Eithne touched on it earlier. And do you think parents are taking enough responsibility in this regard, and getting enough support?  

I wouldn't want to say, as a parent myself, that parents are not taking enough responsibility. I think the challenges of the pandemic, and what we've all been through as a result, has made things incredibly difficult for families. I think we need to look at what support—. And I think it's very important, the point you just made there, about what support is available for parents. Eithne's touched on it, about the support services that were in place that are no longer in place: educational psychology, youth services, social workers, when we try and get hold of them to offer that additional support. And I think there needs to be a whole piece of work around raising awareness generally, because I think there is specific work being done for young people in schools. We know that that work's taking place, we know it's part of the new curriculum, and there's a significant focus on it, but I think, unless we can put the other pieces of the jigsaw together, go out to parents, make sure they have that information, and they are supported in those conversations—. Don't forget, they are some very difficult conversations for parents to have, and some people are just not equipped to have that. So, rather than demonising and pointing any fingers, let's look at actually what we can do to support them. Ask them what do they need. Are they comfortable in having those conversations? And coming back to Chris's point, it about making sure that there are those strong relationships with adults to have those appropriate conversations with learners, and I think there's some significant work that we can do there.

Chris, you'd like to come in.

As a parent myself, I absolutely get that. Sorry, Chair, yes, Chris.

Chris.

I think it's just adding, and I don't think there's any doubt at all, in terms of accessing the type of imagery and information that's available to young people, that it has a negative impact on their attitudes towards relationships. I don't think that's being questioned anywhere. I think the issue, particularly around parents, and that links back to schools, is just understanding the scale of the way in which people can access information, and the way that that has so radically shifted, even in a short period of time over a few years—so radically shifted. So, when we talk about parents being able to have conversations with young people, yes, they can around concrete issues that may emerge, but I think even if you think about a school, and the fact that myself as a parent and a headteacher at a school—I consider myself quite in touch with what young people are doing from day to day, and even I'm surprised at the pace of change.

I think when you begin to realise that young people in school literally have access to a variety of different platforms, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people will be identified as their friends. Huge amounts of those they've never met, and all of those people are sharing and exchanging information. That was in the days when we felt we were doing well because we were talking about Facebook, do you know what I mean? And then we had to deal with Snapchat, and we had to learn what that was, and I think recently, if you look at something like TikTok, which is even more of an issue in schools particularly, you haven't even got to follow anybody. It's not like you're actively looking to follow people—this is information that's just being dumped on your 'for you' page, and it's completely unvetted, and it may not be some of the more disturbing images that we see, but they undoubtedly can still influence young people in their general perceptions about women, about how people should look, about how you should act in society. And that is completely unsolicited. So, it is about media literary and how we teach people to be aware of things, but, again, just keeping pace with the change for a school is almost impossible, because there'll be a new thing next week that we have to catch up with and be able to discuss.

Can I just come in there, then, and just say that I completely agree with you? And it's also what social media has done, particularly TikTok, on algorithms as well. So, once some content is accessed, it then obviously just keeps coming up, and you can't control what comes up next. But, yes, I think Eithne wanted to come in next.

Yes, I think the gap in knowledge between social media and parents and learners and adults grows ever wider, as Chris has alluded to, and that in its own right is—. For me, it has to be a national debate. It's got to be a topic and a subject that is on a national platform where we are all working together. And who can teach us better about social media than the youngsters themselves? They're the ones that are in the know. They're the ones that are actually the solution to some of these issues, both within a school setting where peer-on-peer sexual harassment—no, they don't feel comfortable talking to adults in the school, and I think that's pretty understandable in many cases where we would encourage it. But they will talk to each other, so they are a part of the solution to this whole thing.

I wouldn't want to land this on parents in terms of saying, you know, that parents need to do more. Because parents are doing what they can with this one, but it is a bewildering forest of very, very difficult terrain that people are trying to actually navigate through at the moment. Thank you.

Thank you. Chair, just a really quick question, the last one—do you think certain groups are being targeted more than others? Have they got that targeted support that they need, for example an LGBT group? Thank you.

I think in terms of the general picture around bullying, for example, in schools or societal issues around LGBT+, I think there will be specific issues where, as a result of sexuality, there will be particular groups who will find that much more difficult and will be targeted as a consequence. So, again I think it's raising awareness and raising education and positive attitudes towards the differences and the sameness and that each of us deserves respect, and deserves kindness in who we are within society. For me that, I think, is absolutely vital and fundamental to this particular debate. It's about being kind.

Thank you. Thanks, Chair. 

Diolch, Laura. On to Peter Fox.

Hello, good morning, all. It's great to be part of this discussion, and as a father of grown-up kids and now with seven grandchildren, I've seen many changes in societal behaviour over many years, and I recognise these changes, and it worries me that we need to get something in place, certainly, so that my little grandchildren don't get subjected to the sorts of things that, for most kids, have become normalised.

I want to really just probe a little bit more about the awareness and management of the problem within schools. Chris, I know that, as an acting head, you can very clearly see this and understand it well. Would that be the same for, generally, school leaders? Is this something that is on their radar now? I just wonder why we think that young people aren't talking to teachers about this, as was said in the Estyn report. I know you've covered that off a little bit, and it may be because for those young people it's so normalised in their lives they don't see it as a problem anymore so why would they want to talk about it to the teacher, but I wonder how is that general awareness amongst school leaders?

I think very much at the minute, like I said earlier, it's an issue that has risen up the agenda in terms of our focus. I know in our professional association—. So, in Caerphilly, where I work, we meet regularly as a group of headteachers, as secondary headteachers. There are 12 of us. It has been an agenda item in several meetings in recent months. It's something that we talk about and we share practice, particularly around the systems that we run in school that allow us to identify incidents being reported and the way in which we react to them. So, I think we tend to use similar technological systems in school, and we share practice on the way in which we've amended some of those to allow us to particularly identify these issues. So, I think, yes, it is very much there, and with something like Everyone's Invited, it was a headline-grabbing situation. And I think as a consequence of that, headteachers paid very much attention to what was going on. Similarly with the recent Estyn engagement; I think they've all been important issues in raising awareness of it.

To go back to that issue of discussing things and talking, I run a boys school, and boys don't talk anyway, so getting them to say anything at all other than what happened in the rugby or the football on the weekend is usually a challenge. But it is ultimately, as Eithne said, about creating those relationships with people, where they feel that they can trust you to talk about those things and to get good advice. And sometimes that's about—it is about investment, and investment is expensive, and it's about investment, often, in non-teaching roles inside school as well. So, we're very, very lucky that we've been able to spend some money recently on pastoral support officers, as we describe them, who are non-teaching professionals with 100 per cent contact time during the school day, where they can take the time to sit down and speak to people about what they've been doing in school. So, I think those things are vital, that you provide those opportunities.

And I have to say, in terms of that multi-agency approach, yes, the other people that come in—so police liaison officers and we've got youth workers who come into school on a regular basis—at times when finance becomes difficult, those things tend to disappear. I've seen them when they're in plenty and I've seen them when they're non-existent. So, at the minute, we're in a place where we are currently served quite well, but I worry about the future, about where we're going to go with some of the financial issues and about whether we'll be able to continue in the way that we are at the minute. And I think for this particular issue, if we're trying particularly to build strong girls who are confident and are able to talk about these issues in order to stop them, then we need that network of support around them, particularly for the girls that we identify as being very vulnerable. They need those people around them to give them that help so they can express how they feel, and that is expensive, and we want to be able to do that. 

Eithne.

Yes, again I think it's in the report that we submitted that some of the reasons for learners not reporting is that they're embarrassed, and I think we can probably see that ourselves empathetically. They're worried that teachers will overreact if there is mention of it in the school, and that, I think, would be a concern, if there was an overreaction. But that worries them, and that stops them from disclosing. That the alleged perpetrator is also in school, that is going to be an issue, that they are in class, they are in school with them; that they might be targeted as a result of that particular person having been, basically, called out. And then it is about that idea that it is normal, that they don't report it because they just see it every single day and don't see a problem with it.

I think the other thing that I would mention as well is that the language that we all duck around—we've ducked around it in this particular meeting, some of the language that young people themselves have hold of, some of the pictures that they graphically are subjected to—we need to actually look at that intersectionality in terms of discriminatory processes and language as well and not be too shy about what we need to say to youngsters in talking with them directly. But the intersectionality, I would say, where girls are called sluts and for boys it is almost a badge of honour—we need to look at why it is that a girl is described as a slut for particular behaviours, where males are basically given the badge of honour for similar behaviours. I think that requires a lot of training, a lot of strong stomach to get at it, and it requires us to be much more forthright and much more honest in the discussions that we're having with these young people, and it might help overcome some of the embarrassment with those in terms of those discussions with these youngsters. 

That's a powerful message. Thank you, Eithne. Laura.

Yes. I just wanted to come in really briefly. When you asked the question around how—. From a union perspective, then, we have our members asking us for additional support in how we can help them to facilitate those conversations with their children and young people. And I think, as a union that represents both secondary and primary headteachers, this is a conversation that needs to be extended into primary school discussions. I know there's been some significant work, and we've played a part in those discussions with the RSE working group on development of the new RSE code, for example, on how there needs to be—. Those age-appropriate conversations need to happen, and we need to not be afraid of having those conversations with children in primary schools. Of course, I stress that they need to be age-appropriate conversations, but we can't be naive and think that this is just a secondary school issue. There are children in years 5 and 6 in primary schools with mobile phones, they have access to things. They're not maybe developmentally aware of what they are accessing, so that is another challenge. But I think this is very much on schools' radars and something that they are tackling successfully, but need that additional help and resource to do so.

Thanks for that. I'm going to wrap three questions into one a bit here, really, because I'm conscious of time. How—? Is there a deep enough awareness throughout the school staff as well? That's a role for school leaders, to make sure that everybody's on the same page. Do you think schools have the correct policies in place, or are they in the process of developing these? And would there—? Is there a lot more training that needs to be made available to school staff to help them deal with this? So, sort of three elements there, but I thought—. You've covered many of the points already, so—.

Happy to come back in on that. I think, first of all, there's certainly an awareness across all school staff, and I would go a step further and say that everybody in the school environment has a role to play in this. It's not just about leaders and teachers; it's about support staff, it's about the lunchtime supervisors, who often have those important adult relationships with learners and are sometimes the people very much that these children turn to to have those conversations.

I think there is a significant lack of funding to be able to support schools in doing this. I think our campaign activity of recent years around—. The challenges of school funding, compounded by COVID, and the fact that we are still suffering a huge staff-absence issue in schools across Wales—it's not going to help the situation. But I think there needs to be very much more of a targeted approach to how we support schools.

Like we've all said, schools know they have an important part to play in this, but they can't be the only ones to do it. They need to have that support system around them so that if something becomes apparent from a discussion that actually needs to be escalated, there are clear lines of communication, where schools know exactly where to go, who to pick up the phone, to make sure that learners get the support, and that parents are looped in all the way along the process, so that it's not schools working in isolation.

Thank you. Eithne. 

Yes. Certainly, rather than repeating what Laura's said there, which I'd wholly concur with, I would also add that there needs to be time and space for these discussions within a timetabled process, because, at the moment, the curriculum is so squeezed that you've got very little time and space to discuss these. Our report says that whole-school assemblies—. And God help us, I used to run whole-school assemblies, they're an absolute pain, but they are not the place. They're a place to deliver some messages, but they're not a place for the kind of sensitive discussion that is required around these issues. So, it needs to be in the timetable. It needs to be given space. It needs to be given time. And it needs to be with teachers who are also comfortable delivering the messages that are required for this particular topic. 

It may not be that everybody wishes to actually teach this kind of work, but I think we need to all take responsibility, as Laura has said. But I think schools are working extremely hard to try and make sure that our youngsters, as part of the safeguarding procedures, are looked after with regard to this agenda. 

So, Chris, would you concur that the policies are in place to start dealing with that safeguarding? It is a safeguarding issue, isn't it? 

Yes. I'd argue that the safeguarding policies introduced in schools tend to be very strong, and they are easily amended to pick up on particular issues that emerge. I wanted to just briefly talk about the training issue. I think one of the things that we need to acknowledge is that there's some real strength in Wales. We're lucky around some of the organisations outside the school that can provide support. I would particularly name Umbrella Cymru, which we work closely with, that has some excellent training on gender and sexuality issues, and we've used them in school; they're fab. And I mentioned earlier the White Ribbon campaign as an organisation that will work with you in school. 

I think that a key issue for me is following some of the practices that we've adopted previously, where we've worked together in a multi-agency way with local authorities, consortia, and these kinds of outside agencies, to develop resources for schools, because that's often the thing that's lacking, something you can hang your hat on. And around issues like substance misuse previously, we've seen some really good examples of resource videos, online clips that people can use then, that can be used in all schools to highlight these issues.

And I think, going forward, this is definitely one of those areas where that type of work will be really beneficial. And then 100 per cent agree with Eithne as well about making sure that we find the time within the curriculum to teach this, because it needs to be specific and kept up to date. And personal and social education teachers inside school are hugely valuable to us, and we should be celebrating the work that they do. And there is a danger with all the work that goes on at the minute that those types of lessons get squeezed in the curriculum, and we need to make sure that we preserve them and celebrate what they're doing. 

Thanks, all, and thanks, Chair. 

Thanks, Peter, and now over to Buffy Williams. 

Thank you, Chair. I'd like to thank the panel for joining us this morning as well. I'm going to ask some questions on data collecting and the wider context of bullying. So, I'll start with: what's your understanding of how incidents of sexual harassment are recorded and categorised by schools? And is there a consistent approach between schools? For example, are school leaders fully clear on how they should be collecting and using data? And are schools receiving enough support in this area? Chris. 

I can probably talk about that one the most. I think it's an interesting area, in terms of data collection. So, all schools will run—and typically, now, these are based on technology—. So, schools will buy into packages that allow them to track incidents that are being reported in schools. So, in our school, we use a system called Class Charts—there are others that are out there—where teacher inside school would be able to record an incident. Many parents will be aware of Class Charts, because they're often able to link into those accounts. 

Now, Class Charts as a system, and the others, you are able to edit the topics under which incidents can be reported. So, for example, with ours, we may have a general bullying area, where a teacher could report an incident of bullying. And one of the things that we've done, when we realised this issue particularly was going to be something that was important to us, is we can amend those bullying areas to allow for the reporting on specific issues—so, gender-based bullying, bullying to do with race, whatever that would be. So, the systems that exist in school are undoubtedly able to respond to the demands of the school and the needs of the school to highlight these issues. 

The variance within schools is more about the systems that they use, and therefore that sometimes puts a limit on the way in which we can share practice. Because if, for example, a school that we work closely with uses a different system, although we can highlight issues under the same areas, maybe it's reported in a slightly different way. So, information that we receive from a different school, for example, may be provided in a different format and we can't then necessarily fit it into our systems. This is a very boring, nerdy point. I think, going forward, one of the issues for Wales generally is to be looking at the whole-school management information systems, MIS, systems in schools; we use SIMS. SIMS has got an ability to record those incidents; I'm not sure that they're exploited to the extent where they should be. SIMS is a big organisation, and I think there probably is some work going forward around how we can tailor some of that work to best suit our needs in Wales, and I think that's something that's worth looking at.

Laura, anybody else, want to come in?

I think Chris has covered it off, as far as I'm concerned.

Local authorities are required to collect termly data from schools regarding bullying and harassment. As far as you're aware, how is this data used, and does it actually capture incidents of sexual harassment?

I'm content to come in on this one. I think the umbrella of bullying and harassment doesn't actually cover—. It doesn't get to the data set that we need in order to make sure that we understand the extent of the issue. I think we know it intuitively, but we do need an evidence base for this, and I don't think that should come as a surprise to us. And I'm quite sure that local authorities at the moment are really trying to get under the skin of this particular problem so that that is pulled through. So, I think it does need to have a much sharper focus in terms of collecting that data. But what I would say is that it's what happens with the data after that that is more important than the collection of it. It's one thing gathering it; it's another thing what you do next.

What we wouldn't want to see as an association is that that data was used to blame schools or to be punitive in any way around a volume, because there will be a volume of—. When the data collection begins to be gathered, what we don't want to see is that, when that volume comes through, there somehow is a punitive measure that is placed on schools for reporting honestly. Because there will be consequences, if you like, washing back into the system, where people will be afraid to report, they won't want to do anything with it. This has to be about intervention and prevention, not about, really, punishing schools for doing their best with this particular—. So, we don't want to see, 'There has to be a downward trend', 'There has to be this, that or the other'; we need to use the data intelligently and build a proper profile of what's going on in order that we can put those interventions in place.

Laura.

Yes. Just to pick up on that point really quickly, because I think that's a very important point. We want to create a culture where schools feel confident to be able to report exactly what's going on, without the fear of any repercussions. We have had situations where schools have been challenged by local authorities' improvement partners on some of this data, and we have supported our own members in those situations. And the conversations that we want to have are the conversations that Eithne's just raised, which are: what are we going to do about it, how are we going to work together to challenge it? Because, if we don't know exactly what's happening, it's very difficult to find an answer. We need to create the space for the profession to be able to openly and honestly say, 'Look, this is a problem in our school, we need your help to work through this.'

Chris.

Yes. Just, I think, on some specific issues. So, in terms of reporting, currently, we do report on incidents of bullying every month. We pick out in that report—. In my authority, we pick out incidents of homophobic bullying and race-based bullying, but currently not in terms of misogyny or bullying against girls. I think that's something authorities can look at. But I do think, again, to go back to the point, and agree with Eithne, that what we're looking at then is what you're going to do with that information. Because that's going to be a larger number, for a start, because we're talking about a larger group of pupils inside school. And I think it's also, to just develop that point about not a punitive response, but almost how we use that information to see the differences. So, we have all acknowledged there's an overall message that we're trying to deliver here, but there are also specifics within the education system, even in south Wales: the differences potentially between urban settings around Cardiff and Newport and around some of the additional issues in those areas that are linked to ethnicity and the variants of ethnicity. And there may be some specific support in areas that needs to be provided there. Whereas in my Valleys communities, where I live and where I teach, there are potentially different issues there. They are strong matriarchal societies—we deal with 'mams' every day. They're the groups that we're working with, so we should be thinking about how we can respond there as well.

Thank you. And finally from me: how does the approach of the school and pupil referral unit to sexual harassment relate to the wider problem of bullying? And do you think it should be treated separately or as part of anti-bullying measures and procedures? Laura.

Sorry, Buffy, I missed the question. I've got a really bad internet connection. So, I'm just going to let a colleague answer and then come back in, if that's okay. Sorry.

I'm happy to come in with that one. I think it is both part of the—I'm not trying to dodge the question because it's a very good question—it's part of the problem, but it does need, I think, to be differentiated from the issue of bullying. It is also bullying, though, let's be absolutely clear. Harassment is bullying, coercion is bullying. Abuse goes further than bullying and sexual violence, of course, again, is at that point a legal issue and an issue that needs to be addressed at a further level. But the fact that it starts with bullying, if you like—and that's not to underestimate it—I think actually gives us a way in to discuss this more fully and formally, rather than saying it is something that is completely and absolutely separate until it gets to the point where it is actually, possibly, at the top end of things. And I think that's reflected in the relationships and sex education curriculum, as it's outlined at the moment—the stepped approach that's there.

So, I think it's a useful way in, but it doesn't capture the problem in its entirety. In order for us to raise awareness, we need to put a spotlight on it. But to get into that issue, we can actually look at it, as you say, as part of the issue of bullying to begin with. Thank you.

Yes, and I think that I'd agree. And I think that the systems the schools have developed to deal with bullying are effective and the kind of road map that we use is something that we should be talking about. I just wonder, in this case, where we are trying to highlight an issue that is so prevalent and can be so damaging, whether bullying is just not strong enough a word. And I think, in terms of us describing the behaviours that you've all heard about this morning, Eithne's right: we need to own that language and we need to make sure that we're not shying away from some really difficult issues by including them under an umbrella of a term like 'bullying'. It's stronger than that, it's more damaging than that. We need to be upfront about what we're describing here, and it's abuse.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Buffy. I'm conscious of time. We've only got about seven minutes left. I'm just going to ask a few questions about multi-agency response and then briefly touch on the new curriculum. How well do you think that schools and pupil referral units work with relevant organisations, such as social services and the police? Are schools, do you think, getting all of the support they need from these organisations and is there more that the Welsh Government could be doing in terms of maintaining a strategic approach to ensure that there is effective multi-agency working taking place? Laura, I can see that you raised your hand immediately.

Yes, thank you. Yes, I think this is a really important question and I think that, as a start, I think we need to recognise that there is some absolutely fantastic best practice out there, where multi-agency working is delivering for schools and learners. However, I would go as far as to say that that is not replicated across the whole of Wales. I think there are some challenges around that. I think a key challenge, outside things that we've already mentioned, will be down to funding. I think, when we look at the support services that have had funding taken away from them, we cannot underestimate how important the role of community policing is, and the important the role of social services and social care, youth workers, ed psychs. All that support network that was still in place in schools is under-resourced in our view, and has such an important role to play in this.

I think if we are—. If you're asking the question to NAHT members, 'What can Welsh Government do in this space?', I would say, fundamentally, we need to look at the issues of school funding and how schools are funded, the inequity across local authority areas, and we need to get under the skin of that. That is something that has been a key campaign agenda of ours. In fact, it was this very committee that made a recommendation a couple of years ago to commission a report on school funding. That report was commissioned, and the report told us pretty much what we already know, that there was huge inequity amongst the system, and it's very difficult to work out how much it costs to educate and support a child. It is a very difficult conversation, absolutely, and that's why trade unions are pushing to have the conversation, but a lot of these issues come back to funding, and, going back to the point that Eithne has made, and Chris, about space within the education landscape to tackle this issue, we hear a lot at the moment from Welsh Government about priorities for education, curriculum, additional learning needs—absolute priorities that schools need to concentrate on. Then there's the other noise around the school day and school year reform. I think we need to have a clear set of objectives so schools know exactly where they're going.

Thanks, Laura. Obviously, right across the country social services are incredibly stretched as well, not least because of the impact that COVID has had on families and on young people. So, when we talk about funding issues, I guess we could equally apply it to local government social services as well. Eithne.

Yes, I'm totally concurring with what Laura has said, and I think we've been saying this from the get-go: the schools want to work with those multi-agencies. They want to make sure they are pulling in people who have got skills and the professional skill sets that are required to deal with this kind of approach. And I'll also refer to the child and adolescent mental health services—again, underfunding there—that needs to support those youngsters who are in a place where they do need to talk to an adult. School counselling services are, again, very, very thin on the ground, and it comes back to the issue of funding.

A school, running a timetable, needs a teacher in front of children. That's always going to be the priority for a school in terms of their budget: get the teacher in front of the kids so you can work through the curriculum. But those wraparound support services have been the soft underbelly of schools at the moment, where, when funding is reduced, those will be the services that will be diminished as a consequence, and actually we've seen that over the course of the pandemic, where those are exactly the services that our youngsters need in order to get back to a recovery programme. We're talking now proactively about this next stage. I don't think it's ever been more important that we have a look at this.

The other point that I don't think has come through in the discussion, which I would just draw to the committee's attention, is that sometimes these behaviours that youngsters display in schools are trauma informed. They are because something horrible is going on at home. And if we're not dealing with that in terms of what it is that's going on at home that is causing those problems to wash back into school in a way that is actually looking at safeguarding in the home and family, then once again we're missing a trick and we're not actually doing a good enough service for our youngsters. Thank you.

Thank you. Chris.

Just to add to that—and I'd agree with everything said—I just think that in terms of particularly that point about trauma-informed situations and the challenges that families are facing, they are likely to increase as the cost-of-living crisis bites in over the next couple of months. I think we're going to see more families struggling, more tension, more issues, and as we've identified previously, girls particularly are the group that are affected by that. So, I think it is more of a need to invest in those services. I can speak from experience: when you work with police and social services, the support that we get is excellent, and we often make a difference to young people's lives, but those services and the people in them are exhausted, as many teachers have been over the last two years, and stretched, and the support feels very thin at the minute. I think everybody's trying to do a fantastic job, but they're probably trying to do too much as well.

Will the increase in financial support for school counselling services be sufficient, do you think, to address this problem, to provide the support for traumatised young people? Or is it still going to be insufficient?

So, we've got a school-based counsellor. We're lucky that we've still got one in school, and she attends school once a week, so she gets to see five students during the course of the day. It doesn't touch the sides. 

Okay.

So, the increase in funding is welcome, but I would also say as well that counselling is not the appropriate route for lots of these issues, because some of them are just better dealt with by, as we've talked about, youth workers, other professionals in schools. So, it's not just about school-based councillors, it is that wraparound support from all of those agencies that benefit young people.

Okay, thanks. Unfortunately, we're out of time. I did have a few questions regarding the new curriculum, the teaching of RSE, but we can follow that up with written questions, if that's okay. Thank you for your time this morning. It's been incredibly helpful. A transcript will be provided to you. Please come back if there are any corrections you'd like to make to that. That brings our first session to an end.

We should now be broadcasting, so I'd like to welcome everyone to the seventh evidence session for this inquiry, the second session of today. I'd like to begin by welcoming our witnesses for this session: Mary van den Heuvel, who is a senior policy officer for the National Education Union; Mairead Canavan, who is the National Education Union's district secretary for the Vale of Glamorgan, and also the NEU executive member; and thirdly, then, Rebecca Williams, deputy general secretary and policy officer with Undeb Cenedlaethol Athrawon Cymru. We'll begin first of all with questions from Sioned Williams.

Certainly. Thank you for the question. I'm able to share with you, as part of our evidence, that the NEU commissioned with UK Feminista a report in 2018. I know it is 2018, so it's a few years pre pandemic, but I think the Estyn report shows us that, actually, the issues are still the same. That report looks at sexual harassment and sexism, and it covered England and Wales. The findings from that report show that 45 per cent of primary school teachers say they're aware of sexist language being used at least on a termly basis, with 15 per cent witnessing at least on a weekly basis sexist language. Over three quarters of examples from primary schools given were sexist language heard with boys using overtly female pejorative statements such as, 'Don't be such a girl' and, 'Don't cry like a girl'. From our perspective, that may not be exactly the same as what we're seeing in secondary schools, but, of course, it feeds into the same narrative around gender being really important. And, obviously, equality is really important too, but gender is a significant issue. I hope that's helpful.

Just to expand on what Mary said about the report that the NEU did in 2018, we've found that gender stereotyping is a typical feature of school culture, and it's often reinforced through mundane, everyday actions. The NEU have, as well as conducting that report, produced various resources, both for primary and secondary schools. The primary resources are called Breaking the Mould. I think they've been updated in recent years and they are targeted towards the age of children. I think there is more awareness of how much of a problem gender stereotyping is in secondary schools, and sexual harassment, and not so much awareness in primary schools, but it is definitely, as we've heard in both reports, from Estyn and from the NEU, a problem throughout. 

I think what's really interesting, comparing our report to the Estyn report, is the extent to which the Estyn report says that online is a massive focus of peer-on-peer sexual harassment. I think we don't probably know yet the split and the effect of the pandemic. Obviously, the pandemic has had a massive impact on everybody throughout society. Schools have had to adapt and we've seen and are still seeing lessons having to be taught online because staff and pupils are poorly with COVID. I'm not quite sure that we know yet, but there is a marked difference between the two reports. Obviously, they're not directly comparable with the same cohort of people, but we seem to have seen a move towards online being the larger issue, if you like.

I think, looking back to 2018 and previously, it has always been a big problem. We know that everyday sexism is a problem; it's very engrained in our society and in our schools. I think in terms of the pandemic, I suppose that children had more time and more access to materials online. Sometimes, older teenagers may not have been supervised, and that's not laying any blame at anybody's door, but they may have had more opportunity to access materials that they wouldn't have been able to access in a school environment. And as Rebecca and Mary have said, they didn't have the teaching through RSE that they would've had and the guidance that they would've had at school throughout that time during the pandemic.

I think there are instances outside of school where the school could exert some influence. For instance, I've heard reports that incidents happen often on school buses and walking home from school. I think if pupils are still in school uniform, then there is a case for dealing with that within school policies. But I think the problem is that there aren't robust school policies at the moment in many schools, and it is something that needs to be dealt with specifically outside of a school bullying policy. I think that schools need to have specific policies for sexual harassment and, as I've said, we need to deal with instances, as much as we can, outside of school as well as within school.

It's just to say that, with this, but with everything that schools deal with, there's always a balance between what is school and what is home. This isn't unique in that, but obviously, this does need significant training and resources for schools, building on what Rebecca and Mairead have said. We've got opportunities within the curriculum, but that training is really important, because we've got to get this right now, and we've seen enough evidence that it's happening and it's a problem.

Diolch, Sioned. Over to Laura Jones now, please.

Thank you, Chair. I just want to ask you about causes and impact of peer-on-peer sexual harassment. Thank you for your contributions so far, it's been really insightful. I'm just wondering what you believe are the main causes of the increase in incidents, and to what extent you think that's been driven by accessibility to harmful, inappropriate online content, like pornography or whatever. Do you think that's been exacerbated over the pandemic, due to the amount of time that children and young people spent online during lockdowns? Thank you.

Who'd like to take that first? Mairead.

I think the pandemic has had a huge impact on the increase, because of the access pupils have had. But in terms of what has influenced them, I think there is very easy access to unsuitable material, such as pornography, which is really worrying, and also, there's been a huge increase in activity, for instance, using cameras, uploading videos to TikTok. Use of social media and digital use in everyday life has impacted upon the way that pupils now—. You know, everything has been exacerbated after the pandemic. These things were prevalent before the pandemic, but I do think that perhaps children had more time and more opportunity and more access to these things during the pandemic, and that has had an effect, when pupils came back to school, on the way that they've acted and the way that everything has increased.

Thank you for that. Mary said earlier that teachers need more support. Do you think that parents need to take more responsibility and need more support, and that there needs to be more awareness, so you can work as teams for the children and young people?

Yes. I think parents do everything that they can, and it's really difficult to know how to tackle issues that come up around sexual harassment. I think that schools need to work together with parents and with outside agencies. Some schools have really good community police who come in and give sessions around sexual harassment and other topics, which are really useful. I think that agencies, parents, schools all need to work together. Schools do need to support parents, because it can be really difficult to talk about such thorny issues.

Thank you. Does anyone else want to come in there?

Yes, I can. So, I just wanted to say that it's not unique, is it, as was said, but we believe that a whole-school approach would be really useful in terms of tackling this. It starts, as I've already said, with sexist language as well, and, obviously, not just sexism, but we've seen instances—the Estyn report particularly highlights the issues around the LGBTQ+ community. So, it's making sure that those instances are recorded so that we're able to know what the problem is, and young people feel confident to come forward so that we know how to tackle them.

Yes. Rebecca wants to come in.

Thank you. Following on from what Mary just said, I was going to ask you what certain groups you think have been particularly affected by this. Mary highlighted the LGBT group. Do you think there's enough targeted support for those groups? Or who do you think is being most affected? Thank you. Mary.

Our research found that it's girls particularly, obviously, overall, and we think it's really important that if it is a question of gender, that needs to be addressed and recorded. Obviously, inclusion is really important, so we've got to make sure that—. The findings of the Estyn report, as well, showed that, as I said, the LGBTQ+ community also suffer from homophobic bullying, so we've got to make sure that the recording systems are capturing any intersectionality, because every group is going to have significant differences in terms of the way in which they experience sexual harassment, but our report found, particularly, sexism being a problem.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Laura. And now, over to Peter Fox.

Good morning, and it's great to be with you. I want to push a little further about awareness and management of this problem, and just to try and get a flavour from you as to how you believe—. Do you believe that schools really understand, are fully aware of this situation of peer-to-peer sexual harassment? Why would you think that the pupils aren't coming to the teachers and talking about this sort of situation? Is there something missing here? Yes, sorry, Mairead.

I think it's something that is very insidious. It's become normalised, and it is accepted as a part of everyday life, really, within schools and within society. So, I suppose, up until recently, perhaps, many teachers and parents weren't aware of the exact impact and the extent of what was going on, but I think it is something that is becoming very obvious. I think there's far more awareness in schools now of how widespread it is and how much we need to tackle it and really begin to deal with it.

Thanks, Mairead. Anybody—Rebecca, Mary, any observations? Rebecca.

Yes. Mary, anything?

Yes. So, just to add really that this is key, isn't it, that we've got the training in place so that everybody understands how to deal with any disclosures that young people make, any reports of incidents of sexual harassment. We need to make sure that everybody understands and that it's not just one person, but that they're able to speak to the adult or the person that they feel most comfortable with when reporting this, because this isn't easy stuff. This is very difficult and, as we've spoken about, society doesn't always react well to all of these things. So, the things that they're hearing online particularly are going to be challenging. So, a whole-school approach, I totally agree.

Thank you for that. Would there be a consistency across schools in their understanding of this? I mean, Mairead, you talked earlier about the inadequacy of school policies, perhaps, around this as well. How would you sum up that picture? Is it variable?

I'm not aware of any school that has a policy directly about sexual harassment, and I think that is very important, because if we only have policies that come under an umbrella of bullying, then it doesn't give enough importance to the topic and how much we want pupils to feel that they can come forward and report these incidents. There's a lot of evidence that they haven't been reported in the past, so we do need to be very much putting the word out there that, actually, we know it goes on, we want pupils to feel comfortable coming forward, we want teachers to be aware that they should be reporting things that they see happening as well. So, I don't think that the policies are necessarily there.

Training is a huge issue as well; teachers need specific training in this area, and that comes down to funding. Schools need to have the funding to be able to provide this training. And I would say as well that some schools may think that just going for an equalities training is enough, but, actually, again, it needs to be very specific; it needs to be about sexual harassment and how to deal with that. I think it does need to be specific.

So, on that consistency perspective, then, would it be variable across schools, so some schools are doing well on this? I suppose there are challenges for LEAs—different LEAs take different approaches to lead on this sort of thing. I'm trying to really understand how variable that situation is as well. Yes, sorry, Rebecca.

Yes. Anybody else want to add on that? No. I get the point on the training element, so I won't push any further on that. I think there's a gap there—that whole-school approach and that need to have a consistent approach right across the whole local government family, really, is really important. But back to individual schools, do you think school leaders are supporting and guiding enough your members—the actual teachers? Are teachers getting enough support? Mary.

Thanks. So, it's worth saying we've got members, and I believe UCAC does too, that are school leaders, so it's about everybody, though, isn't it? And I think it's really important to acknowledge, yes, training is absolutely critical and a whole-school approach is absolutely critical if we're going to seriously tackle these issues, but I think it's worth thinking about what schools are doing at the moment. We've got secondary schools now fast approaching exams, with young people who have seen the previous two cohorts not have to sit exams, and so there's the struggle of trying to make sure there's enough work there if exams don't happen because we get a different variant of COVID. So, COVID is still very much in our schools, we're struggling right across Wales to find sufficient supply teachers to cover classes because people are poorly. It's still an absolute pressure cooker.

Then we've got primary schools who are fast preparing for—and most secondary schools too—the new curriculum in September. So, we've got to make sure that we are realistic in terms of our expectations about asking the whole school staff, and pupils as well actually, to come onboard with this. We think it's really important, but if we're going to prioritise it, we need to consider the workload of everybody, including school leaders. But certainly we wouldn't want to put so much pressure on school leaders that it gets passed down through other members of the education workforce as well. So, it's just really important that support is there.

We've talked about training, but, actually, if there is money for training, and there is some at the moment, actually, the challenge, as I've said, is finding the supply cover to backfill people who need to go on the training. So, it's a really difficult situation in schools at the moment. So, I think there's a lot of noise, and trying to make this the most import priority needs to come with the realistic idea that there is a lot going on in our schools.

That's really helpful, Mary. Thank you. Does anybody else want to contribute on that before I finish? Yes, Rebecca.

Thank you. Thank you, all. Thank you, Ken.

Thanks, Peter. Over to Buffy Williams.

Thank you, Chair, and I'd like to thank the panel for joining us this morning. I have some questions on data collection and the wider context of bullying. And my first question is: what's your understanding of how incidents of sexual harassment are recorded and categorised by schools, and do you think teachers know how they should be recorded consistently? Mairead.

I don't think, from what I hear is going on with reporting, that sexual harassment incidents are necessarily recorded separately, or that they are recorded as a particular type of bullying. I think that's a big issue. I think that everybody needs to be a lot more open about the fact that sexual harassment is a huge problem in schools, and then maybe we will—. Perhaps it's to do with—. Maybe pupils aren't reporting it in the way that we would report it as sexual harassment, and I think that perhaps that is around the fact that it's not discussed openly in schools, or it hasn't been in the past, and so perhaps there's some sort of sense of shame in speaking about it. I think just being open about the topic, and being clear that it is separate from bullying, would encourage reporting of it in a much better way. 

Okay, thank you. Mary.

I was just going to say that this leads on to talking about—sorry if I'm going to cut off the question you were going to ask—. I think that the opportunities we've got, really, with the new curriculum—. Yes, the reporting at the moment isn't necessarily capturing all of the incidents, but we think it's really important that, as I've said, if it's sexism, call it sexism. That should empower young people to come forward if it's being recognised, because otherwise we're in a situation where, if young people aren't seeing that their concerns are being recorded appropriately, then there's a risk that they're not coming forward. So, seek opportunities with the new curriculum as well to ensure that those ideas, and obviously ideas of consent and development-appropriate teaching of anything to do with sexism, sexual harassment—it all kind of comes as a package that we need to unpick in the recording to make sure that we're capturing, when it is, as I've said, intersectionality between gender or LGBTQ+ people, or any other protected characteristics. Because it will have a disproportionate impact on some groups.

Thank you. Rebecca.

Thank you. I think you've just touched on this, but local authorities are required to collect termly data from schools regarding bullying and harassment. As far as you're aware, how is the data used, and does it actually capture incidents of sexual harassment?

We don't believe it's fully capturing the picture at the moment. We think there's an opportunity missed if it isn't, so as I've said, it's really important, if we're going to encourage young people to come forward, if we're going to tackle this, if we're going to create those confident and ambitious young people that the new curriculum wants to, then we're going to have to make sure that that's right.

Anybody else on the panel? No. Finally from me, how does the approach of schools and pupil referral units to sexual harassment relate to the wider problem of bullying, and do you think it should be treated separately or as part of anti-bullying measures and procedures? Mary. 

I've touched on this already. We actually think there does need to be some separate tackling of this, as I've said, to make sure that, if it is a problem, then we're naming that problem and that people are encouraged to come forward, because it's going to be difficult to encourage young people to come forward if we're—and I don't want to say the word 'just', but if we include—. All bullying is a problem, but if we're going to tackle this specifically, then we're going to have to name it and make sure that young people are able to name it too. 

Rebecca.

Mairead. 

I was just going to say—it goes back to what I said a moment ago that, if schools don't have a process of reporting it that actually names the bullying as sexual harassment and sexism, then maybe that's why there's a perception that those incidents aren't being reported, because they're obviously being normalised and pupils don't feel that there is anything to report if there isn't a process for reporting it. So, yes, I don't think we're giving the message to young people that we think that is a serious issue and that they should be reporting these incidents, no matter how trivial. 

Thank you. Thank you, Chair. 

Thank you, Buffy. I'm going to ask some questions now regarding the multi-agency response that we see across Wales, and begin with a question about your understanding of how well schools and pupil referral units work with relevant organisations, such as social services and the police, in dealing with individual cases of sexual harassment. Are schools getting the support that they need? Is there a consistent approach in terms of the severity of incidents that are escalated to social services and the police? Rebecca.

Thank you. Mary or—? Yes, Mary. 

I don't know if Mairead put her hand up first, but—[Interruption.] Yes, so I was just going to say we're seeing those services come under pressure too, and I think that's really important to recognise, that actually schools can't do this by themselves. The minute you start talking about the police—at the moment, I recognise it's not in Wales, but the case of child Q comes to front of mind, and I think it's really important that all of those services are able to respond in an appropriate way to children and young people and that, as we've already said, sexual harassment isn't just about incidents of bullying, it's about a whole-school approach to talking—talking about sexism as well—and making sure that even if these aren't instances we're technically calling bullying, that aren't meeting that threshold, that we're able to encourage young people to call out any inappropriate behaviour and language.

Thank you. Mairead. 

I didn't really have anything to add to that. Yes, I just agree with what Mary and Rebecca said. 

Okay. How effective is the Wales schools police programme? Could it play a greater role, do you think? No particular view on that. No. Okay. To what extent is there a suitable balance between the responsibilities of schools and parents? I know that this is something that we've already heard quite a bit about today—concerns about potentially some parents not taking responsibility as teaching unions would wish in addressing pupils' actions? Are parents and carers engaging, do you think, sufficiently with and supporting schools? Could parents be doing more? 

I think there is a need for more communication between parents and schools on this issue. I'm not sure it's a topic that schools are comfortable with talking to parents about, and it is something we need to be open about. And as Rebecca has talked about earlier, in some homes there are certain behaviours that possibly would exacerbate the situation in the way that pupils behave. Yes, I would say, possibly, there isn't a suitable balance at the moment. It's something that we could make improvements on. 

Okay, thank you. And is there any more you think Welsh Government itself could be doing to provide a vital strategic approach and also co-ordination to ensure effective multi-agency working? Yes, Mary.

So, yes. Any opportunities, you know—. I think here specifically, as I said, we've got the opportunity to think about this more widely. So, we've got the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015, haven't we? So, that specifically looks at the gendered nature of violence against women. I think we've probably got to think quite seriously about how gender is—. A high number of these incidents are gender related, and we've got to look at that in schools, and I think if the Welsh Government is able to provide resources for that—. I've seen some resources from the Welsh Government on online sexual harassment, but I think it's really important that it's not all just online. And as we move back, we presume more time in school. Online continues to be important, but it's important that we're calling out any kind of behaviour.

So, I think a real inclusive environment for everybody is going to be really important, and Welsh Government can do a lot to support that. And then there's also the training and resources that we've already touched on. As NEU, we support the AGENDA resources, and I believe you're speaking to EJ Renold later today, from Cardiff University. They'll be able to describe to you how to best use those resources. So, that's going to be really important, but, yes, absolutely. I think I might have misunderstood your question, Ken, and it was meant to be about multi-agency working, so sorry. 

No, not at all. That's really helpful. I'll move on now just to touch on the new curriculum, if I may, and to ask whether any of you have a view on whether the teaching of relationships, sexuality and sexual education under the new curriculum will help in terms of both preventing sexual harassment, and also in dealing with the consequences of it? Okay, first Rebecca and then Mary. 

Diolch. And Mary. 

Yes. Thanks. So, basically, I couldn't agree more. I think there's a real opportunity, isn't there, with the developmentally appropriate way in which the curriculum is structured, or can be structured or should be structured, to make sure that we are having—that teachers in schools are having—the appropriate conversations right from the beginning of school, that young children are able to understand all of the different things about being kind to each to other, as well as about having those healthy relationships, and so the way that curriculum is meant to work is that it's completely developmentally appropriate. So, it's not introducing—. It's not sexualised language to young children; it's about looking at what we can do for young children to make sure they are understanding healthy relationships and friendships with each other, of course, at that age. So, I absolutely agree with Rebecca: it is challenging. So, making sure that everyone's had that access, the trauma informed training as well, to make sure that everyone is being taught appropriately, is going to be really critical and also a real challenge too. We've mentioned gender and the work of Professor Renold. So, yes, absolutely endorse all of those. So, I can't say more—it's an absolute opportunity. 

Great, thank you. Yes, EJ will be joining us this afternoon. We're looking forward to taking their evidence. Mairead, anything to add? 

I echo what Mary and Rebecca said. I just think that the new curriculum and RSE are going to provide us with a really good opportunity to promote gender equality through challenging gender stereotypes and sexism and sexual harassment in schools. I think it's a really big opportunity.   

Is enough professional learning being offered at the moment to teachers who will be expected to deliver RSE in line with the statutory code? Is the training of sufficient quality as well? Okay, Mary. 

I mean—. Oh, sorry, Mary.   

No, no, Mairead, go for it. It's fine. 

Well, I was just going to say that, with the new curriculum and the ALN Bill and everything that's happening in schools and coming in so quickly, the main problem is having the time to do any training around this particular issue. 

And Mary. 

That's basically the point I was going to make. I've already answered in response to Peter's question. There are a number of challenges in schools and making sure that everyone has the time is going to be really important, I think. There was a Welsh Government survey that came out—a report that's come out on the new curriculum earlier in the academic year. I think it's around two thirds of practitioners and leaders said they needed more support in order to deliver that curriculum, so it's going to be really important. 

Thank you. Rebecca.

Diolch. Okay, just finally, do you have an idea of what proportion of schools currently have a designated RSE lead in place? It was something the children's commissioner was particularly concerned about—ensuring that an RSE lead is established in every school by this September. Do you have any idea of the proportion of schools that currently have one? Rebecca.

Mary.

I can't specifically answer your question either, I'm afraid, but what I would say is that it's really important, obviously, that schools use this opportunity, but I would say as well we've got to be really careful with regard to the way that the new curriculum works in terms of bringing together different disciplines, because I think, if we're not careful, we might lose some really experienced expertise in terms of teachers who do have subject-specific knowledge, and so we've got to get to a place where we're not losing it. So, training is therefore really important—it's important here, it's important across lots of different topics—that we are keeping our workforce trained and ready and not losing out to those who have brilliant pedagogic experience, but may not have experience in specific areas of the new curriculum.

Excellent, thank you. That brings the session to a close. Thanks for your time today. We are incredibly grateful. A transcript will be provided to you in due course. Please do check it and make any corrections if there are any to be made. That brings this session to an end, and the public broadcast will temporarily be halted. 

Welcome back for the eighth evidence session today. If, for any reason, my internet fails me, I nominate Buffy Williams to step in as temporary chair, unless any Member objects. No. Okay, great.

Well, I'd like to begin by welcoming both Kelly Harris, who is the business development and participation lead at Brook Cymru, and also Iestyn Wyn, campaigns, policy and research manager. Thanks so much for joining us today to talk about this very important issue. We have quite a few questions that we're hoping to get through, and I'll begin, first of all, just by asking if you can just very briefly outline your organisation's role in tackling peer-on-peer sexual harassment amongst learners. How is this relevant to what you do? Kelly, can I begin with you, please?

Yes, of course. Thank you and thank you to the committee for having Brook come today and give evidence. We're really delighted to be here. So, in terms of who Brook are, Brook are the UK's leading sexual health, well-being and relationships charity. So, Brook were established back in 1964, and what we do across the UK is we provide education for children and young people relating to all things relating to sexual health, well-being and relationships. We talk about things like consent, sexually transmitted infections, contraception, healthy relationships. It's a really, really wide spectrum of what we do, and in England we also offer sexual health services for young people under 25. However, we don't offer that here in Wales.

And in terms of linking to the inquiry and what we do, so here in Wales the work that I undertake is going into schools and youth organisations across Wales and providing support, education and information for young people, all on topics relating to consent, so really, really important—understanding what it is, the parameters of it, how it affects them, discussing healthy relationships. And also we do a huge amount of professional training—so, trying to upskill teachers, youth workers, social workers, anyone who has direct contact with children and young people, around all things relating to this topic. So, we provide professional training on consent and disclosures of sexual harassment. We also offer our recognised traffic-light tool training, which is around looking at sexualised harmful behaviours of children and young people. So, we do a wide, wide range of things. That's kind of how we relate into it; it's that we're trying to provide the front-line information and support, so people can make healthy and informed choices for themselves relating to the issue.

Thank you. Anything to add at all, Iestyn?

Yes. I'll just briefly introduce our organisation and go into a bit about our position and the work we're doing on the subject.

Diolch, Iestyn. I'm going to go to Sioned Williams.

I would say that I think if we're being honest about it, we probably don't actually know what the full scale is around it in schools, because of a lack of really concise data around it. However, we do know in the School Health Research Network report of 2019—and again, we're waiting for the most updated SHRN data—50 per cent of secondary school students across Wales did report being called sexually offensive names. Particularly that was something experienced in a high number by people who identify as female, and that increased with age. But in terms of exactly how we're facing today in 2022, it's still not, in terms of data, really easy to prove. But what we do know is that anecdotally, when I work with young people, they frequently will explain and say that they do experience this and that it is something that they have seen and something that they potentially have either witnessed as a bystander or something that they have been subjected to themselves as an individual.

I know later on you're going to have someone from Plan International, and I'm sure they'll talk at length about their report and experiences of young people, but the statistics in their reports show again really high rates of young people, particularly of younger ages as well. I don't want to quote specifically, but by the age of 14, it's a really high percentage of those who identify as females who say, actually, they've experienced some form of sexual harassment already. So, we know it's happening, but it's just really hard to quantify exactly how much, without a bit more robust survey or research, maybe done by Welsh Government, to look into the issue substantially.

Diolch, Iestyn. In terms of what we're seeing amongst young people, whether I would say that there's a sharp increase in it, I don't feel that I would be able to say 'yes' specifically. But I think that a lot of it is because it is underreported, and Estyn's report showed us that really significantly—that actually, those who do experience sexual harassment are the least likely to think that reporting it will be a helpful experience to them. Therefore, what we see are barriers to young people coming forward and disclosing what's happening to them for many reasons. Sometimes, it's around the fact that some students don't feel that, maybe, their teachers will take it seriously because it gets dismissed as, 'Oh, well, it's just young people being young people', or when we look at it from a gendered perspective, it's, 'Boys being boys' and we've normalised that kind of impact on the way that people talk to each other, or how it's just accepted by some teachers.

I'll give some evidence around that. We deliver our harmful sexual behaviours training called the traffic light tool, and when I was in a school delivering this training to some staff around it—. We do a value-based activity just for professionals to think objectively about how their values could impact on the way that they deal with disclosures and how they generally think of different topics. Around the value of 'Sexual banter amongst boys is normal and should just be left to be so', I had one teacher really argue the point that they believed that actually, sexual banter is healthy and we should be allowing it. It's the way that that is enshrined in people in society that we should just allow it, when we shouldn't; we should be addressing it, we should be unpicking it, we should be taking the time to do it. And therefore, the challenge is that if we've got teachers who portray that—. And that is not an indication that all teachers are like that across Wales, they're not; I've worked with some wonderful, wonderful teachers who really try hard to implement and put robust procedures in place. But if we still have people who will react to somebody, or dismiss it to be, 'Well, it's just normal, it's just banter', that's a huge challenge for young people. Sorry, Iestyn, I'll just finish and then I'll come to you. 

What we also know from the Estyn report and from the Ofsted report in England is the scale of the problem—it's in all schools right now. So, what we need to be doing is capturing how it's happening, how it's going on, what the result of it is, and also just the severity of it, because we do see it. When I'm delivering sessions around consent to young people—obviously, we do things in a very key stage, age-appropriate, timely manner with our education resources—and particularly when I talk to year 11 around issues of consent, some of the ways that they will express themselves or things that they say can be worrying, that normalised thing, that acceptance. I also had a young person say to me, 'Well, there is no point in reporting it, it's just going to happen anyway', and that's really sad. Under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, article 19, young people have the right to feel safe, and if our young people are going to school knowing that this is going to happen and that it's normal, that's really, really damning of our society that, actually, we're not doing more to address it and to challenge it. There'll be, I imagine, other questions from the committee members about how we can tackle these things and how can we do it. I could probably talk for two hours and longer about things that could be implemented and things that could be done, but it's a huge, huge challenge. Iestyn, sorry.

Yes. No, apologies, Kelly. I was just agreeing with every word that you were saying. But also, just in terms of that banter element that you mentioned, obviously, we need to recognise and to say from the outset, neither I nor Stonewall are experts in the area of sexual harassment within schools. However, we do have knowledge over how it affects LGBTQ+ children and young people, and what Kelly said in terms of the banter element is something that a lot of LGBTQ+ people will experience.

The Estyn report notes that homophobic name-calling in corridors in schools is a norm to a lot of LGBTQ+ children and young people. Our report from 2017, the School Report, echoes that, with 90 per cent of children and young people who are LGBTQ+ having heard the term, 'That's so gay' in a derogatory manner, being expressed negatively. And with my personal hat on, I can echo that, as someone not that young now, but having memories from my school time where that was still a problem years ago, and it continues to be now. So, going back to Sioned's question earlier—sorry, the Member Sioned's question earlier—about how prevalent this is and how things are changing, I would say, from a personal, anecdotal point of view, it hasn't gone anywhere; it still continues to be an issue. But how prevalent that is is obviously something that we've discussed that is very difficult to pinpoint at the moment, given the lack of evidence. But, just to finish on a quote that's in the Estyn report, it says here:

'Every time we walk down the corridor, someone will call names at us.'

And we see the abuse that LGBTQ+ children and young people are often sexualised in disguised by homophobia, biphobia or transphobia, and it I think is problematic. So, I will, maybe, throughout the session, talk a bit more about the types of sexual harassment and abuse that children and young people who are LGBTQ+ face, because I think there are different layers that can disguise it in different forms, because of it being homophobic, biphobic and transphobic in nature as well.

Diolch, Iestyn.

Can I just—?

Yes. Sorry, I was just going to say, add to it as well, obviously in terms of your question around the increase around it. I think, obviously, there's a conversation around online as well, which definitely would have added to the number of people experiencing it.

Diolch, Sioned. Over