Y Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth, Cyfiawnder a’r Cyfansoddiad

Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee


Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Alun Davies MS
Huw Irranca-Davies MS Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Peter Fox MS
Rhys ab Owen MS

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Aled Evans Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
Ben Harris Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
Gareth Howells Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
Gruffydd Owen Ymchwilydd
P Gareth Williams Clerc
Samiwel Davies Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
Sara Moran Ymchwilydd
Sarah Sargent Ail Glerc
Second Clerk

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Cyfarfu’r pwyllgor drwy gynhadledd fideo.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 13:30.

The committee met by video-conference.

The meeting began at 13:30. 

1. Cyflwyniadau, ymddiheuriadau a dirprwyon
1. Introductions, apologies and substitutions

Croeso, bawb. Welcome, everybody. Prynhawn da i chi i gyd. Good afternoon to you all.

Welcome to our latest session of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. We meet pretty much every Monday afternoon. We've got quite a packed agenda in front of us today, but, for those listening in, much of it will be done in private, when we go into private to consider reports. But we do have business to conduct in public first of all, as is our purpose as scrutineers. 

First of all, can I just remind everybody, our committee members, that we have, as per normal, the full Welsh and English translation. There's no need to mute or unmute your microphones—that will be done for you. Also, my thanks, by the way, to Jayne Bryant, who has been a member of this committee up until now. Jayne has left us, actually, to go on to another committee—I don't know for how long. This sometimes happens on committees, but we wish her well, and we're delighted to welcome a new Member but a returning Member, with a lot of experience of the work of this committee and its predecessors, Alun Davies. Alun, you're most welcome back. I know we'll rely on your input extensively as well. It's really good to have you.

The meeting, of course, is being broadcast on Senedd.tv and the Recordof Proceedings will be published as usual. Apart from that, no housekeeping. But with the indulgence of Members, I'd just like to say just a few short words at the start of this meeting, which I think is appropriate. Last week, we had the tragedy of losing a fellow parliamentarian, in a different Parliament, on these islands. But he's a parliamentarian who served on committees since the day he was elected, decades ago—Sir David Amess. His tragic murder, carrying out the day-to-day work that parliamentarians do for their constituents, and the sort of things that often go unseen and unsung—. I know that the Senedd will be marking some way to show respect amongst parliamentarians for the work that he's done and for the life that he gave in public service. But with the indulgence of Members, I ask just for a moment, not for a minute, but just for a moment to reflect on the work that we all do, and the work that we do cross-party, and the work that we do in order to improve the lives of others, and just to reflect for a moment on the work of Sir David Amess, and then we'll begin. Thank you.

Thank you very much, and to our committee clerks, and Members as well—thanks to everybody just for observing that moment. Right, we will get on, as he would have wanted, to be honest, with the business that we have to do on this committee.

2. Offerynnau nad ydynt yn cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 na 21.3
2. Instruments that raise no reporting issues under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3

We move straight, then, to item No. 2 on our agenda this afternoon. As normal, it's instruments that raise no reporting issues. Alun, you'll be familiar with this terminology from when you've been on this committee before. Under Standing Order 21.2 and 21.3, statutory instruments with clear reports, and here we have an affirmative resolution instrument, SL(6)062, the Listed Buildings (Heritage Partnership Agreements) (Wales) Regulations 2021. This instrument makes specific provision regarding heritage partnership agreements for listed buildings in Wales, supplementing the provisions of the Planning (Listed Buildings and Conservation Areas) Act 1990. Now, we considered an earlier version of this at last week's meeting, and that version was withdrawn by Welsh Government in order to rectify a technical point that had been identified by Senedd lawyers, which we welcome. And Senedd lawyers have not identified any further points for reporting with this instrument, so all I'm asking you to do, colleagues, is if you can confirm you agree now with this draft report. Thank you very much. 

3. Offerynnau sy’n cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt i’r Senedd o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 neu 21.3
3. Instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3

We move on to item No. 3, instruments that do raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3, and the first of these is a made negative resolution instrument—it's SL(6)063, the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 5) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 18) Regulations 2021. Again, for people watching in, they'll know we have this particular instrument and subsequent numbers in its iteration appear in front of us regularly, as the coronavirus restrictions regulations are updated. So, these amendments are being made to provide clarity and ensure consistency with the changes that are being made as we speak and debate these, and our Senedd lawyers have identified three merits points for reporting. So, could I invite either Rhys or—. Sorry, could I invite, first of all, our lawyers to report on those points, please? 


Diolch. There are just the usual standard reporting points for all coronavirus-related regulations. Those reporting points relate to breach of the 21-day rule, noting the Welsh Government's justification for any potential interference with human rights, and the lack of formal consultation. 

Thank you very much for that, Gareth. Members, that, as you know, is very much par for the course on this particular set of regulations. Are we happy, with those observations that Gareth has made, to agree the reporting points? We are. Thank you very much. 

That takes us on to item 3.2, which is SL(6)064, the Health Protection (Coronavirus, International Travel) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 11) Regulations 2021. This, again, is a familiar one that appears in front of us as the iterations on the travel regulations are updated. So, it makes amendments to the international travel regulations, including in relation to pre-departure testing, the recognition of vaccinations, and the list of countries and territories subject to additional measures. And, once again, I think, Gareth, it'll be you—you've identified three merits points for reporting. 

And again, they're the same three standard reporting points for these coronavirus-related regulations. 

And again, committee, are we happy to agree that report? We are, thank you very much. That was a relatively short section today, compared to some of the ones that we've been involved with, but we do have some papers to note that we're going to move on to. 

4. Papurau i’w nodi
4. Papers to note

So, under item No. 4 in our public business today, we have correspondence from the Minister for Finance and Local Government on the meeting of the finance Ministers' quadrilateral. So, if you're happy to note that, we can then return to it, if need be, in private session to discuss. The second item is correspondence from the Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee on legislative consent memoranda on the Building Safety Bill. Now, in respect of this one, we have the letter there. We are going to be receiving evidence from the Minister for Climate Change in relation to the memoranda, and the memorandum on the Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Bill on 15 November. So, if you're happy to note the correspondence, we can return to that in private session, because we will also be having the Minister in front of us. Are you happy to do so? Yes. Thank you very much.

5. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod
5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting


bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).


that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

And with apologies to the public who may have tuned in to this today, we're now going to, with the will of the committee, go into private session to discuss some other reports in front of us, which will then, of course, come onto the public agenda next week and subsequently. So, we're not disappearing behind the scenes entirely. We do do this to deliberate on things and then bring them back to you. So, item No. 5, under Standing Order 17.42, could I ask committee members whether they're content to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting and go into private session? Thank you very much; we are. I'll wait to be told now that we are in private session. 

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 13:39.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 13:39.