National Assembly for Wales

Yes. First of all, can I declare an interest? My daughter is a potential Welsh-medium teacher in the near future. Do you not accept—and it's not your responsibility, it's the responsibility of the Minister for Education—that the fact that supply teachers are treated so appallingly within the system, a lot of people are put off entering education and becoming teachers because of that? A lot start off as supply teachers, they end up working for an agency, they get treated appallingly by those agencies, and they either drop out of being teachers or they don't even take it up in the first place. Now, that's not your responsibility—that's the responsibility of the Minister for Education—but that is having an effect on people taking up teaching.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Minister, I just want to clarify, when these priorities and targets were set a few years ago, whether you or your colleagues had any knowledge of these deep-seated global trends that are deterring young people from taking up the teaching profession.

Diolch.

Diolch. So, first of all, on the supply teacher side, first of all, Mike, I would absolutely encourage your daughter to become a teacher. We are absolutely desperate, and if she could become a secondary school teacher that would be particularly marvellous. I know she's a Welsh speaker and an expert in music, so that would be extremely welcome. So, I would encourage her to do that. On the supply side, Mike, as you say, this is the responsibility of the Minister for Education, but I know that there have been issues in that space and there probably is a need to do some work in that space. But, at the end of the day, we're not looking at trying to recruit more supply teachers; we want to have teachers who are committed, absolutely full-time, to the profession. I do think that there is a broader issue here that we need to address, and that brings me on to David Melding's question. One of the first things I did as the Minister for the Welsh language was to publish 'Y Gymraeg mewn addysg', the Welsh in education strategy, which set out all of these issues. Of course, we were aware that there was an issue at the time, which is why we've put these additional steps in, which are beyond what's happening in English—these additional nine steps that have been set out in the letter that was sent to you—because we knew that we had to go over and above whatever was being done in the English-medium sector. 

Starting off, then, with evaluation, Minister, the last evaluation was several years ago, and that noted that there was no real measurement of the impact of the scheme on attainment, on how well pupils and schools' results fared as a result of the scheme. So, will the current evaluation address those issues?

The evaluation will be published, we hope, on 16 March, so not long to wait now until we see what that has to say. There are two aims of the evaluation. First of all, it's to examine how, and to what extent, the sabbatical scheme contributes in the way that Welsh is taught, and the way it's used as a teaching medium in schools. I know from going to visit the year-long sabbatical scheme that there's been a lot of work done on pedagogy and how the Welsh language is taught, and I think that's something that will be quite useful for us to look at. Then the second thing is to assess the contribution of the scheme to the professional development provision for those people who are trying to teach through the medium of Welsh.

In terms of the impact on the students themselves, that has not been a part of the evaluation, and it is actually quite difficult to assess that because there are lots of external factors. It's very difficult to say 'And it was because these teachers went back into the classroom that this happened.' Now, we don't collect the data from key stage 2 and key stage 3, so we have to wait until a lot later, and, of course, by then, it's difficult to assess what were the issues that impacted on the abilities of those children. So, in that sense, it won't be focusing on that, but what it will do is see how the teachers benefited from the scheme and it will hopefully give an insight into whether they feel that the pupils have benefited as a result. 

I accept that it's often very difficult to show cause and effect, Minister, and sometimes it's perhaps more a matter of correlation, but that last evaluation did seem to state that there's a gap and that there wasn't sufficient monitoring and mechanisms to show the impact of the scheme in terms of school and pupil results. That seemed to be identified as a gap. That's a gap, then, that isn't going to be addressed.

We've got to remember why it was set up in the first place. It does address the wider policy context of 'Cymraeg 2050' and the fact that we have now our national mission and what we're hoping to do in this space. It will look at what is it that led teachers to want to participate in this scheme and also how they plan to use those skills in the future, how to improve teaching and learning. I do think that there's a lot of work to be done in this space, in particular in relation to teaching Welsh as a second language in non-Welsh-speaking schools. I'm very concerned about the work that we need to do in that space.

Okay. If we move on, Minister, in terms of the context within which the evaluation takes place, will we see, when that report is published, an evaluation within the context of school improvement plans and Welsh in education strategic plans, again, with that aim of raising attainment amongst learners?

I think if you look at the Welsh in education strategic plans, what we're looking for there is a plan of where we want to head in future. And what we'll need to do then is to recognise where the gaps are in terms of the number of teachers that we'll need. So, there will be then that discussion, we hope, that will go on between the local councils, which will be able to identify where the gaps are, and then with the Education Workforce Council, to make sure that we're plugging those gaps as far as possible. And some of that work is already being done. I know that Carmarthenshire, for example, has gone a long way to try and identify where the gaps are. Then we can start filling those gaps and looking and making sure that the training is put in place to shift some of these schools. And let's not forget, we've got a commitment here to move from 20 per cent of our children going to Welsh language schools to 40 per cent within the next few decades. That's going to take a lot of work, and we're going to have to bring parents with us, but we're going to have to bring the teaching community with us as well.

Okay. Would you accept, Minister, that the language skills of those who undertake the sabbaticals are often quite limited, really, and that they need encouragement to further develop their language skills after completion of the sabbatical period? There's not much support in place at the moment, or perhaps not enough, to encourage that further development of language skills.

We're aware that this was a criticism that was levelled at the scheme very early on, and that's why measures have been put in place to try and plug that gap. What's happened now is that the regional consortia and the local authorities are now expected to give support after completion of the sabbatical schemes. There's a bespoke and tailored approach to each individual teacher so that we can plan in relation to the Welsh language within their school. There is a network of people who come together who've been on the scheme so that they can share best practice. There are mentoring schemes now. There's continuing professional development in terms of the Welsh language and the Curriculum for Wales and developing that. And the other thing is that there's a real effort to keep in touch with the headteachers, just to make sure that they are taking advantage of the fact that we've put in a lot of investment into these people, and that they need to be using it. Then the other point that we've done is to make sure, where possible, that they will link up to a Welsh-medium school so that they get that opportunity to practice the Welsh language. Of course, there are different levels of ability. The people I met on the sabbatical scheme who were there for a year—my God, their language skills were excellent. There are other people who go for three-week or shorter periods and, of course, their language skills need a lot of improvement. So, there are big varieties within the sabbatical scheme.

We've heard evidence, haven't we, that there hasn't been enough progress in terms of increasing the number of teachers able to teach through the medium of Welsh, and this scheme is one way of trying to address that. Do you think there's now a need for a more systematic approach to this particular scheme to ensure that, right across Wales, it's effective and it has the necessary investment?

I think what we need to look at is really what's the purpose of this particular scheme, and I'm not sure if the purposes of this particular scheme was to increase recruitment specifically. Some of this was about increasing the confidence of teachers who perhaps speak Welsh reasonably well, but don't feel confident enough to use it in the classroom. This is what we're trying to address in this space. In particular, there are certain regions, like my region for example, where Welsh is spoken very often in the home, but when it comes to formal Welsh, they really panic. So, it's giving people that confidence to think, 'No, I can do this.' I think we've got to remember that that was really what we were trying to look at here, but also, in those non-Welsh-speaking schools, to give a bit more support. There are schools in Wales where there are very few people who are able to speak Welsh, and we've just got to give them the support that we can, and to try and see how we can spread that out within schools. Getting a champion within the school is really important, especially in those non-Welsh-speaking schools.

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. I think when the Welsh Government announced that the coleg would have its role expanded into post-16 education—this was relatively early in this Senedd, December 2017—there was a widespread welcome for that. And then a year later, December 2018, the action plan was published. I just wonder what your assessment is of how that action plan has started to be implemented and just where were are with this important area, really, of social and work-based learning and the ability to have more of that through the medium of Welsh.

Thanks, David. I remember one of the very first meetings of the council that advises me on the Welsh language, and I was really stunned to see the drop-off in the number of people who spoke the Welsh language post 16. So, we put all of these kids through Welsh language schools and then, suddenly, a lot of them left and they weren't happy to tick the box, then, in relation to whether they speak Welsh. So, clearly, this was an area that needed to be addressed, and I'm really pleased that the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol has helped us to really look at that area.

It's very early days still in this space, and that's why what we've had to do in relation to this is to look at what we prioritise within this space and what are the areas that we're going to push on. So, what's happened now is that the coleg Cymraeg is making sure that there are going to be two full-time tutors for the areas of health, childcare and public administration. So, we're just focusing on those areas where we know that there will be a public interaction. So, we're pleased that that's started, and the idea is that we're going to target about 2,000 people who have been through a Welsh language school who want to learn Welsh through this way. So, in terms of targets, as you say, this was something that came a bit later rather than being a key part of that programme that we set up within Welsh in education. So, it's something that we've recognised since then, that we've needed to plug the gap. But I do think it's early days on this.

I was really pleased to be able to meet recently with some ambassadors from Coleg Cambria, who are doing a great job, because, as far as I'm concerned, a lot of people—. Trying to get people to speak Welsh is, actually, sometimes about what you do in the classroom, but often, it's about what you don't do in the classroom; it's about what you do socially. And so, these ambassadors are trying to change the culture within some of these sixth-form colleges and further education colleges to make sure that they're changing the environment. And I'm really pleased to see that that seems to be going from strength to strength.

Yes, thank you for that assessment. Now, when the coleg produced the action plan, it did say that there were resource implications for the future. And they wrote to us recently, in the current budget phase, and made an assessment of what that investment would be, and for 2021-22, with Welsh Government investment of a further £800,000, and then, increasing, in a phased way, to an extra £3.2 million in 2023-24. I just wonder what your view of that assessment is of the resource implications. You said it's early days, so, presumably, when those early days turn into later days, you will recognise that there will be funding implications. So, in terms of that assessment, do you think that's the ballpark we're in?

Well, I think, as you say, we need probably a gradualist approach. I don't think we're going to be jumping into the kind of £3 million figures that they were looking at, but I do recognise that we do need to try and give more support in this area. And so, I'm working with the education Minister on seeing whether we can get some more support for this specific area of work. We haven't given up yet in terms of seeing if we can land some more funding for this area.

Well, I'm sure we'd be encouraged to hear that, particularly as your colleague Kirsty Williams helpfully wrote to us, just before this committee convened this morning. She does point out some additional investment, but we had this rather chilling line that, in general, she relied on the coleg's 'efficiency and effectiveness to deliver this', which is obviously polite speak for, 'There will be no more resources', and that this is special pleading and a more robust organisation, potentially, would not have to make these appeals. So, by the sound of it, you disagree with that approach.

Well, I've got a meeting with the education Minister after this, so this is something that we will be discussing. I think there's a recognition that we do need to give more support in this area, and we'll have to see what comes out of the budget process.

And I'm sure we all agree with your view in that respect, rather than the education Minister. I hope I haven't unfairly—

I think she's been quite supportive, actually.

—interpreted her letter; I'd be the first person to acknowledge if I have.

I think she has been quite supportive in this space. Of course, you know, we're all battling for funding within the general budget, and it's been a tough year, as you can imagine. But we will do what we can to continue to support the coleg, obviously, and to try and extend its remit when that's possible with additional funding.

And I'm sure that in the sixth Senedd, our successor committee will regard this as a very important area. 

My second area is quite separate, and it's just on Welsh language regulations. I don't particularly want to rehearse your decision not to extend or bring in the regulations for health regulators during this term. You've made that decision, and I think we've already quizzed you on it. But I did just want to press on some of the practical challenges that, presumably, would remain. They're not specific to your decision, or the Welsh Government's decision more broadly in this Senedd, and may persist. That's that the regulators—well, some of them, anyway—are uneasy about having, as part of the register, the registrant's ability to speak and practise—and practise is the key thing—Welsh. Now, clearly, if the regulations are aimed at increasing access to services that can be delivered through the medium of Welsh, people are going to have to have some way of finding out whether the practitioner can practise or not. So, do you have—? Are you finding it a bit frustrating—? Are you feeling some frustration at the kick-back that some of the regulators—I don't think that's true of all of them, incidentally—have raised? Again, this may be new territory for them, and I'm all for tackling these cases, but you do need to be firm as well. And can we expect, very early in the sixth Senedd, that whoever forms the Welsh Government would be able to progress in this area very quickly?

Thanks, David. When it comes to regulations, I don't think we should lose sight of what we're trying to achieve here: we're trying to make services available through the medium of Welsh. I guess the problem with regulators is that they regulate individuals, and it's not their responsibility to then say, 'Right, what is it that you are offering to the public?' And so, there's a difficulty for us, because we're trying a regulate a group of people who perhaps don't have that front-line responsibility. So, it is difficult, but we were very keen to try and investigate, following the response from the Welsh Language Commissioner and groups like Cymdeithas yr Iaith, who were keen to see if we could tease this out a bit further.

So, what we're trying to do—. I think there are examples of where some organisations do this quite well. So, osteopaths, for example, they're letting people know where you can get some availability and service through the medium of Welsh. But when it comes to dental practices, they might be able to tell you if somebody speaks Welsh, but they can't tell you where they practise, because that's not their job, they're not interested in that; they're regulating the professionals. So, that's not very helpful to the public. So, there are lots of different groups here, and it's quite a technical problem that we're trying to resolve here. And part of the problem we've had is to try and delve into the ability to resolve this problem through a legislative framework, whether that is possible or not, and, of course, there's a lot of pressure on the legislative services within the Senedd at the moment. I don't know if Bethan would like to come in, because it is quite a technical area, this, isn't it, Bethan?

Yes. So, the Minister—

Chair, before the official speaks, it might be helpful if I can just ask a further question, and it probably would be for the official. I'm generally trying to get an understanding here. Is the problem with some of the regulators that they object in principle to the register listing whether someone can practise in Welsh, or do they feel they can't make the judgment when the person is fit to practise in Welsh, because that's a quality assessment about their ability to use the Welsh language in a healthcare setting? I'm confused, because the simple fact of registration, which would rely on the self-declaration of a practitioner, I would imagine—. It seems difficult to understand why there's an objection to the register just having that information.

I think there's a difference between—they feel it's not necessarily their responsibility to be doing this, and that's part of the problem. You've got to remember that most of these organisations are headquartered in England, only one of them has a base in Wales. So, the sensitivity around this issue is something that we need to do a lot of work with them on, and we have done a lot of work with them on this. Bethan, can you go a little bit further on the challenges we have in this space?

Yes, of course. The Minister is correct, it is a technical issue, because under the Measure and the creation of the standards, the service delivery standards can only be put upon organisations that are in charge of that service delivery, so regulators are in charge of the fitness-to-practise services, and nothing else. So, some of them ask registrants to note their language, but it doesn't fit neatly within the definition of their services, so under these standards, we can't put a formal standard upon them to do that. So, we are looking at other legal avenues or potential legal avenues to go through that hoop.

The Minister has also referred to the voluntary side, and I know that osteopaths, as the Minister said, are working with the Welsh Language Commissioner in order to do this on a voluntary basis. But we would prefer that all the regulators have the same approach in this field, and that's why we are doing further work with them.

I don't think they're opposed, per se, to doing it, but, as the Minister said, ultimately, this is to improve services for individuals, and, in itself, just denoting the language of the registrant doesn't necessarily translate into the public and the customer being able to access those individuals geographically. So, it is a technical issue, but at the base of it, the regulators do not—their service delivery is to observe the fitness to practise of individual registrants, and that's why, legally, we can't go any further within these standards. So, we're looking at other means, because, like yourself, we do believe this is an important element.

Okay. This is an observation more than a question at this stage, perhaps it's something to reflect on: in terms of giving informed consent to procedures, the ability to speak in the language you're most comfortable with is fundamental to absorbing information and being able to reflect on it and discuss it with your family, potentially, before you make a decision whether you want a procedure. So, language isn't peripheral to service delivery, is it? I just wonder if some of the regulators don't quite understand that, and I would expect, even if there isn't a legal route to insist on this at the moment, that all the regulators would still realise that it should be something that is done on a voluntary basis until the law also requires it. For the importance of this, I think it should be required in law as well, but I think it is important for us to make these points quite strongly to the regulators.

I think we've got a little bit of leverage whilst we're still developing the standards to hang the sword of Damocles over them to—. If we can't do it legally, then we need to do it through persuasion, and whilst we're still in the process of developing the standards, there's an opportunity there to have that more persuasive conversation, I think you're right.

Thank you, Chair. I don't have any further questions.

Thank you, Chair. Minister, when we talk about Government policy and the development of Government policy, we often talk about policy not getting caught into governmental silos and how ministerial portfolios have to work across one another to ensure success, and the same very much in terms of Welsh language standards. So, I wonder, Minister if you could outline how Welsh Government is, I suppose, mainstreaming Welsh language policy across ministerial portfolios, and the extent to which it is actually genuinely being embedded within those policy areas, rather than being sort of siloed in some way. I'm just wondering what success you're having in that direction.

Thanks, Mick. I think this is a continual area where we need improvement, let me just put it that way. When it comes to Welsh language standards, obviously the Government has a responsibility to comply with the law, and so every department and every organ of Government has to comply with those rules that have been set out in the standards. So, in terms of the law, I think things are going in the right way.

The issue is how do we make the Welsh language a mainstream issue, rather than a bolt-on issue that people think, 'Oh, right, oh, God, yes, we've forgotten that.' And that is part of the culture shift that we absolutely need to embed across the Welsh Government. So, for the past few weeks, I've been having one-to-one discussions with every single Government Minister to try and develop, you know, what is the next programme of action towards 2050 going to look like, and what is the contribution going to be from each of those departments of Government, so that we can truly see those areas where we embed and mainstream it into every aspect of Government policy. Things like what Academi Wales are doing in terms of leadership, understanding leading in a bilingual country, all of those things are going to be really crucial in this space.

I suppose that's part of the problem, isn't it? You know, you talk about the culture change: if you have to actually think about it every time you do something, then that is almost part of the problem, as opposed to it being a natural part of what you're doing. It's almost a bit like the culture change from future generations is how you change the thought process, the whole culture of action and decision making. Of course, the civil service is key within this, and I'm just wondering to what extent you've been able to assess the extent to which you have that culture change within the civil service, and what examples there might be of showing how this is actually beginning to take place; that that culture change is actually occurring. How do you evaluate something like that, to identify that success is being achieved?

You'll be aware, Mick, that whenever anybody has to develop a policy within the Welsh Government, they do have to fill up and make an assessment of how this is going to impact on the Welsh language—every single policy area, every MA that is signed. So, they have to think about it before filling in that particular piece. The issue for us and the challenge for us is: is that a bolt-on at the end, or is it something built in from the beginning? I think if I'm honest, some departments are doing it much better than others. So, if you look at, for example, the education department and what's happening in relation to twenty-first century schools, I think the money from that has been used really well to drive policy, to try and increase the number of people going to Welsh language schools. So, that's been a real success story.

There are other areas where if it's a brand-new policy, we can really put some effort in, and I've got to pay tribute to the officials within the Welsh language department. Where they get stuck in, they can really make a difference. It's just that, actually, Government is huge and my department is quite small. So, if you think, Jeremy, for example, has been doing a lot of work on the digital programme of development, and we're right in there right from the beginning, making sure that it's built up from the beginning. So, if you're looking at new policy areas, I think there are real opportunities. Look at childcare, for example, I think there's a real understanding there, but there are other areas where it's not so clear.

In some areas we tie it to money. So, if you look at, for example, major events, which I was in charge of for a long time, we made it conditional: 'You don't get this money to support major events unless you demonstrate every single step of the way how you are going to promote the Welsh language.' So, we can write it into some areas and we probably need to do that a bit more. But I'm very keen to see how we get this culture change happening, Mick, and it's not straightforward, it's not easy; it's going to be a long journey, but we've already started down that path.

You're right; culture change is difficult, just as it is, as you say, in terms of usage of Welsh, which is as important, if not more important, than the actual numbers that are there. But you mentioned that there are some areas that are not particularly clear, or where there's a need for more progress. I wondered if you could perhaps say a little bit more about where you think those particular areas are, where more attention needs to be given.

I'm particularly keen to see more focus on things like employability plans. Where are the opportunities in relation to that? So, that's an area where I'm very keen to see where we can work. It's not straightforward, because if you look at something like apprenticeships, for example, we need to see more apprenticeships through the medium of Welsh, but actually, it's not the Government who provide apprenticeships, it's very often the private sector, and you can't force them to do things through the medium of Welsh. So, we can do some things. There's been a massive increase in the number of modules that people do through the medium of Welsh, thanks to the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol. So, there are areas where we're making progress, but we need to make more progress.

Thank you for that, Minister. If I could perhaps move on a little bit to some areas around, I suppose, things you said during budget scrutiny sessions, and so on. You've mentioned in the past that pressures exist on the commissioner, the work that the commissioner does, and perhaps the expanding work, but also that there are gaps there, and I think you said there might be some space for Welsh Government to move into some areas where there's been work going on. Now, whether that's a sort of overlap or to cover areas that are difficult to develop, I'm just wondering what areas of the commissioner's work you've been considering within the 2050 project that Welsh Government might be able to step into, either collaboratively or in some other way.

Well, I think, to start with, I want to make it clear that I think that both the commissioner and I are on the same page in terms of what our goals are. We both want to see 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050, and we both have a responsibility to see how we can move towards that. I think in the past the focus of the commissioner has been more on regulation, but actually there's a movement now towards seeing how the use of the Welsh language can be increased. So, I think that's an area where we can collaborate, because what we have in the Welsh Government are some tools that may be helpful to the commissioner.

So, if you take something like the business sector, for example, there are aspects that the commissioner has responsibility for, to push the Welsh language in particular areas—I know he's done a lot of work on supermarkets and banks and places like that, and some of it's been super successful, I must say—but there are other areas where we can help him. So, with Business Wales, we have a huge number of people in that space who could be helping in that space. We've now, for example, got Helo Blod, which is a kind of call line where they can call if they want some help in relation to business and the Welsh language, for example. So, we're not trying to tread on anybody's toes here, we're trying to support the work that is done using the levers of Welsh Government that may be useful to support that. 

It's an interesting but also quite a complex area, because the commissioner has clearly certain legal functions and responsibilities, and yet both Welsh Government and the commissioner also have responsibilities in terms of the promotion of the language, and the promotion of the language can mean many things in different ways. Now, you have indicated previously that, in terms of the 2050 project programme, there was money that had specifically been put aside for the key objectives. I'm just wondering, perhaps, if you could be more specific about what you think might be the key objectives, the key projects that you would take forward that might involve, perhaps, joint collaboration with the commissioner and with you or Welsh Government.

I think, first of all, one of the things that I was keen to do was to establish a clearer understanding of where the demarcation lines were, and then if we were going to go into each other's patches, at least we would then make sure that we were working together, and that we weren't stepping on each other's toes. So, we have now a memorandum of understanding, so we both know who is leading where, because I don't want the public to be confused here—I think that's important as well.

But I think there are some areas where we can be helpful to the commissioner and, certainly, there are lots of areas where the commissioner can be helpful to us. So, if we take something like developing the WESPs, the fact that we have a commissioner who was responsible previously for developing how we needed to change the WESPs, I think that's been really helpful. But what we can do is to help him in terms of language planning. We're doing a lot of work at the moment looking at what does the language look like in every particular area, so that we can give support to the local authorities to develop their WESPs. So, that's an area where we both have a joint responsibility, I think, to move forward together. 

Another area that I'm very keen on looking at is place names. You've heard there's been a lot of talk about roads and things being named through the medium of Welsh, or house names being taken away. This is an area again where there's a responsibility on the commissioner to keep a list of those things but, actually, we've just got to look at whether there any gaps and whether we can be helpful to the commissioner in those spaces. 

That just really concludes, I suppose, my final point. I was going to ask about the level of engagement with the commissioner on it, but in the light of the memorandum of understanding, what I think we would take is that there is actually quite a strong ongoing process of engagement, discussion and mutual support between the commissioner and the work that the Welsh Government is carrying out, or that you're carrying out on behalf of Welsh Government. 

Yes, I think that's fair to say, and I'd like to play tribute to the commissioner and his staff for the working relationship with my officials as well. I think things are going quite well in that space. I think we understand that there's a mutual benefit, but we also are very clear that he has a responsibility to be independent of us, of Government, and that he has a role to maintain the standards in relation to the regulations. So, it's understanding that there's a wall there when it comes to regulations; we mustn't step anywhere near that path, and I'm very clear about that. 

Thank you, Minister. 

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I've got two questions. First, the committee's been going now for five years and I know how much hard work people like Bethan put in to getting a committee to deal with the Welsh language and culture, rather it than being an add-on to the local government committee. I think it has worked. Will the Minister be supporting the continuation of a committee like this, dealing specifically with culture and the Welsh language, rather than having it as an add-on to either the economy or local government or something else? How much influence and help has this committee—of which I haven't been a Member, so I'm asking on behalf of others, really—been to the Minister in the work she's carried out?

I believe in accountability. I think it's really important that Ministers are held to account and I think committees are a really good way of doing that. I think it's very important to have a committee that has the Welsh language within its key aims in terms of accountability. I also think it's really helpful to me as a Minister in relation to the Welsh language. We've been talking today about how we mainstream the Welsh language and I think that the committee can be helpful in that space in terms of making sure that, actually, you don't just hold me to account, but actually there are other Ministers that need to be held to account in relation to the Welsh language. If we're talking about the future, I would suggest that actually, rather than just holding me to account when it comes to the budget, and looking at my tiny budget, which is about that big, for an hour and a half—that actually you ask the other Ministers, who've got huge amounts of money, what they're doing within their budgets in relation to the Welsh language. I think there's an opportunity there for the committee to perhaps do a little bit of probing within that space. I'll probably get killed now by my fellow Ministers. [Laughter.]

But not by Members of this committee. I think people are generally in agreement with you that we do, in Welsh Government, have a serious problem of silo mentality, which then makes its way to committees, which also have a problem of silo mentality. This is far, far worse than local government, which is often accused of it.

The last question I've got is: should the committee not just be looking at other Ministers, but looking at some of the private sector organisations? As some people here are well aware, I spent an interesting summer trying to get Lloyds Bank to deal with my daughter through the medium of Welsh and accept Welsh documents, which took the best part of two to three months and the intervention of a previous Minister for the Welsh language, Alun Davies, and the Welsh Language Commissioner, in order to make progress. I won't be on this committee after the election, I can be fairly certain of that, but should this committee be actually talking to private sector organisations—and not the corner shop in Monmouth, but large, private sector organisations such as the big banks, such as the major supermarkets—about exactly how they're making the Welsh language available to people who are their customers?

I think there could be an important role there. Of course, that's a space for the Welsh Language Commissioner in terms of leading on some of those areas, but there's no reason why you couldn't as a committee be trying to put pressure on some of those organisations. We don't have the legal tools to make these organisations do certain things through the medium of Welsh, but we do have the moral authority to ask them to do it, and I think that, in itself, is quite a powerful tool.

It is—sorry, I'll just finish on this—a massive tool. Can I just talk about a committee that I am involved with, the climate change committee? We've moved the marine environment massively up the agenda, both in the Senedd and within Wales, because we keep on having investigations into it and reports on it. It's got people who aren't necessarily part of the marine environmental lobby involved because we made it a big issue. And I think there are opportunities—whatever the successor committee is—to actually start making some of these big issues, and not just me making a fuss about Lloyds Bank and eventually getting success, but about the committee making a fuss about banking in general. I'm not sure that Lloyds were the worst at the time, and they are actually accepting things in Welsh now, following that campaign. But, generally, getting these things, whether we have it via the commissioner—. I would prefer it—and I won't be here, so I can prefer it for other people—that they do it directly to the organisations themselves, to get them to explain why, in an area where there are substantial numbers of Welsh speakers, they're unable to deal with requests in Welsh. They may well say, 'You can't just turn up and demand it; we may not have a Welsh speaker there', but they could certainly ensure that somebody who speaks Welsh and who works through the medium of Welsh is available if somebody wants to come in on a designated date and time.