National Assembly for Wales

May I welcome Members to this morning's meeting of the Public Accounts Committee? We have one apology today, from Vikki Howells, and no substitutions. Do any Members have any declarations of interest they'd like to make at the start? No. Okay. Simultaneous interpretation is available, as we know, from Welsh into English, so you should all be sorted out with that. You won't need to unmute microphones, but you will need to unmute in the private session later. 

Item2, and papers to note. The Auditor General for Wales published his report on 13 October, which revealed that £8 million of fraud and overpayments have been uncovered across public services in Wales—an extra £2.7 million compared with the previous round two years ago. The auditor general's report states that this was mainly due to several local authorities being more proactive in reviewing matches between council tax single person's discount and the electoral register. The report also highlights that the COVID-19 pandemic has significantly increased the risk of fraud, and the auditor general is working with the Cabinet Office to help address some of this risk. Auditor general, did you have any comments you'd like make on this piece of work?

Thank you, Nick. I think you've drawn out the main points very well in your opening remarks. I'm very happy to take any questions that Members have, obviously. Otherwise, I think there's an opportunity for the committee to pick up with the Permanent Secretary, in the scrutiny sessions you have with her later in the month, in particular the Welsh Government's leadership role in supporting and promoting counter-fraud arrangements right across the public service. Thank you.

So, if Members are happy, and don't have any questions—. Jenny Rathbone.

There was an interesting point made by the First Minister in Plenary last week around some local authorities using financial information they already hold about people to fast-forward people's entitlement to free school meals. I thought that was a particularly interesting approach to it rather than waiting for somebody to fill in a form, going into the school et cetera. And I just wondered if you could say something about that, because it's a good use of using data to get more efficient access to resources that people are entitled to as well as—[Inaudible.]

Absolutely. I completely agree with you. Using data proactively to improve the accuracy of payments and support the first time around rather than us retrospectively identifying when things have gone wrong is absolutely the right way to go. I'll pick that up with the team to see if there's anything further that we can do to encourage that.

Because only some local authorities, apparently, are doing it, and the Welsh Local Government Association was silent on this matter when I approached them on it.

And you will have seen in our report that that remains an issue across local government with some patchy performance in terms of local government support for pursuing some of the transactions that we identified with them. So, it remains a patchy picture—you're right.

Okay. So, we can take account of this during our planned security session of the Welsh Government's consolidated accounts later in the term. So, we note that report.

The next item is the A465 section 2 road improvement. We've received some additional information from the Welsh Government following our evidence session on 28 September. Unless Audit Wales have any comments to make on that, auditor general, then we'll note that for now. Yes. Okay.

Housing adaptations, and an update from the Welsh Government. That's in your pack, pages 7 to 9. I've received the response from the Welsh Government to a letter of 15 June, regarding progress on the implementation of recommendations 3 and 5 from our report. Are Members happy to note that information? A further update will be provided in the spring of 2021.

On rail services, a letter from Transport for Wales and KeolisAmey Wales Cymru. That's on pack pages 10 to 12. So, we've received a joint letter from those two stakeholders regarding the future of rail services in Wales. As we're aware, the Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales issued a written statement on 22 October to update on progress regarding the future of the Wales and borders rail service, and specifically the future delivery model Transport for Wales will be implementing, which will allow the Welsh Government to adapt its plans to a post-COVID era. This has, obviously, been pretty fast moving recently. Auditor general, did you have any comments you wanted to make on this response?

Nothing from me at this stage, thank you, Chair.

Okay. So, I propose that we note the letter for now, and that the Welsh Government are aware that we will touch upon this further with Andrew Slade when he attends, I think, next Monday's session. Okay. 

And, an inquiry into COVID-19 and its impact on matters relating to the Public Accounts Committee’s remit—the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee has written to the Llywydd regarding the scrutiny of COVID-19 regulations, and the letter's been copied to all committee Chairs for information. So, I propose we note that letter.

Item 3, then, and I move Standing Order 17.42 to exclude the public from the meeting for items 4, 5, 6 and 7. Are all Members content with that? Good. Okay, we now need to take a technical break and the Zoom meeting will be closed.