National Assembly for Wales

Welcome, Members, to this week's virtual meeting of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. In accordance with Standing Order 34.19, I've determined that the public are excluded from the committee's meeting in order to protect public health. In accordance with Standing Order 34.21, notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting, published last Thursday. This meeting is, however, being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place.

We have a full committee today. Are there any declarations of interest? I don't see that there are any declarations there. Can Members ensure all mobile devices are switched to silent mode? Senedd Cymru operates through the mediums of the Welsh and English languages. Interpretation is available during this morning's meeting. Members are reminded that the sound operators are controlling the microphones and, as such, there is no need to mute and unmute during the public meeting.

We move straight on, then, to item 2 on the agenda: instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3. We have the Health Protection (Coronavirus, International Travel) (Wales) Regulations 2020—obviously, an important set of regulations. You have before you a report, the regulations and the explanatory memorandum, and, of course, the letter from the Trefnydd, which is dated 8 June 2020. 

These regulations have been made in response to the COVID-19 pandemic. They place a requirement on certain categories of people arriving in Wales, including to provide information about where they will reside in Wales and other related matters, and to isolate for a period of 14 days. These regulations are in breach of the 21-day rule. I'll just go over to the lawyers for the merits and technical points. 

Thank you. There are two technical points and four merits points, starting on pack page 1. The two technical points each note a cross-referencing error within the regulations. The first merits point notes that the regulations were laid before the Senedd after they had come into force. The letter from the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd on pack page 49 explains that this was necessary to enable the restrictions to be in place across the UK at the same time, as part of a four-nations approach to avoiding the spread of infection or contamination from coronavirus or coronavirus disease in the UK via imported infections via travellers. As the Chair has just pointed out, this also means there is a breach of the 21-day rule. The explanatory memorandum explains that urgent action was needed to limit the number of cases of COVID-19 imported into the UK, which it says is particularly important as the rate of domestic infections slows. And more detail is in the explanatory memorandum on pack page 44. 

The second merits point notes that no public consultation or regulatory impact assessment was carried out in relation to these regulations due to the need to put these regulations in place urgently. 

The third merits point relates to the definition of 'sewerage licensee' in schedule 2 to these regulations, which is defined by reference to a provision in another piece of legislation, but that provision is not yet in force. As a result, the reader is heavily reliant on the footnotes to the regulations in order to find the definition. The draft report asks the Welsh Government when that provision will be brought into force and to confirm whether consideration was given to including the full definition on the face of the regulations. 

The fourth and final merits point notes that the regulations engage article 8 of the European convention on human rights, which is the right to respect for private and family life. Now, article 8 is a qualified right, and interference with this right  is permitted, where necessary, in a democratic society in the interest of public safety or for the protection of health. However, the explanatory memorandum does not contain an acknowledgement of, or justification for the interference with human rights, and the draft report asks the Welsh Government to set out their justification on how these regulations engage but do not breach human rights. 

Okay, thank you for that. Obviously, there were very important points made there. Over to Suzy Davies. 

Nothing from me. 

Okay. Over to Dai Lloyd. 

Carwyn Jones. 

Chair, if I may, I think we may have lost Carwyn from the session. We're trying to get him back. Just to let Members know, we have, in the last few minutes—

You haven't lost me; I'm still here. 

—received the Government response these regulations. 

I see Carwyn Jones is back again. I don't know whether you—

I'm still here. 

—heard those technical points and merits points. 

No, I heard; I hadn't gone away.  

That's fine. Any comments, then, on the report? 

I keep on being muted. Can you hear me now? 

Yes, we can, indeed.  

I could hear you, it's just I have to, because I'm on one machine, look at the agenda and be on Zoom at the same time, and I think, if I do that, sometimes I disappear off the screen, but I am still here. And the answer is, I've got no comments to make, thank you. [Laughter.]

Okay, thank you for that. Could I just make one comment, then? It's that, in respect of the 21-day rule breach—I'm not making a point, that it's not understood et cetera—I think, in all of these, where these arise, we should be formally responding in respect of all of the breaches, if they occur, during the course of a meeting. It is important that there is a record of these and, in these unique circumstances, obviously, it is understandable why they are occurring now. But my concern is really that we don't normalise the noting of them, in that sense, and that we just formally respond and say that we've considered this and noted the explanation that's given. And, then, perhaps, at some stage, later on, we will want to do a cumulative assessment. Is that okay with everyone? 

In which case, we move on to item 3, which is a letter from the First Minister—the Senedd Cymru (Representation of the People) (Amendment) Order 2020. Again, you have the letter of 15 June 2020 and the written statement, which begins at pack page 51, I think. The written statement is at 52 and the papers begin at pack page 51. Members are invited to note the letter from the First Minister, which relates to the Welsh Government's consultation on the Senedd Cymru (Representation of the People) (Amendment) Order 2020. The consultation primarily relates to changes to the franchise and disqualification arrangements, and the consultation runs until 8 September 2020. Let's go over to the lawyers for any comments on this. No?

No comments from the lawyers. 

No, in that case, we'll go over to Suzy Davies. 

Yes, there are some concerns about this, which I think Dai Lloyd will speak to a little bit more in a minute, when you give him a chance. 

I will give him a chance. 

There are some concerns about the tightness of the deadlines this  presents in order to deal with elections when May comes. 

Okay. Dai Lloyd. 

Okay. Carwyn Jones. 

I've got nothing to add to what my colleagues have already said, Chair. 

Okay. Perhaps I could just go the Clerk on this. This is obviously an important point that's been raised, and there is, in addition, the consultation that's taking place until 8 September. What would be the best way for us to be able to look at this a bit further, in a bit more detail, because there are, obviously, some constitutional issues there in terms of the franchise? And, of course, we've given consideration to the earlier legislation in respect of this. Is there an opportunity to look at this in a little bit more detail?

Members may wish to write back to the Minister, particularly in respect of item 3.2 on the agenda, to raise any concerns. If Members want to seek an opportunity to get the Minister in to give evidence, although the timetable for that is tight—. But, if the regulations are being tabled before the summer recess, there will be an opportunity to look at those in some detail, perhaps.

Let's do that—let's just take that point first before jumping on to 3.2. Would everyone agree that we should do that?

Yes.

Yes.

Okay. So, we've noted that, and we will deal with that in due course.

Let's move on, then, to item 3.2, which is a letter from the Minister for Housing and Local Government, again on the Senedd Cymru (Representation of the People) (Amendment) Order 2020 [correction: which is a letter from the Minister for Housing and Local Government relating to the 2020 electoral register]. This is the letter dated 16 June 2020 and, of course, we have the written statement. Members are invited to note the letter from the Minister. The Minister notes her intention to lay the draft regulations for approval by the Senedd, which would allow electoral registration officers flexibility in relation to the publication of the revised 2020 electoral register, arising from the conduct of the annual canvass of electors. In her letter, the Minister states that this flexibility is warranted because of the current circumstance brought about by the COVID-19 pandemic. We've already commented on this and I think we've already agreed to look at this issue. If there are any further points on this, perhaps we can raise them in private session. Is that agreed?

Okay, we move on then to item 3.3, which is a letter from the Counsel General on guidance on drafting legislation, with a letter of 17 June 2020 and the guidance for preparing legislation as a result of Parts 2 and 3 of the Legislation (Wales) Act 2019, formerly referred to as the Interpretation Act 1978 but now the Legislation (Wales) Act 2019. And you have also the guidance on the legislative drafting implications of Part 2 of the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Act 2020. So, we're invited to note the letter from the Counsel General and the guidance. Are there any comments on that, or any matters to be raised we can raise in private session? No. Okay.

So, we move on, then. I think we want to go into private session now. So, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi), I invite the committee to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Do Members agree that we should now move into private session?

Yes.

Okay, we now go into private session.