Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu - Y Bumed Senedd
Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee - Fifth Senedd
11/03/2020Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol
Committee Members in Attendance
| Carwyn Jones | |
| David Melding | |
| Helen Mary Jones | |
| John Griffiths | |
| Mick Antoniw | |
Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol
Others in Attendance
| Angharad Mair | Tinopolis Cymru |
| Tinopolis Cymru | |
| Euros Lewis | Cyngor Cyfathrebu Cenedlaethol |
| National Communications Council | |
| Llion Iwan | Cwmni Da |
| Cwmni Da | |
| Martyn Ingram | Made in Wales |
| Made in Wales |
Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol
Senedd Officials in Attendance
| Angharad Roche | Dirprwy Glerc |
| Deputy Clerk | |
| Manon George | Clerc |
| Clerk | |
| Robin Wilkinson | Ymchwilydd |
| Researcher |
Cynnwys
Contents
Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.
The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 9:30.
The meeting began at 9:30.
Bore da, bawb, a chroeso cynnes i gyfarfod heddiw o'r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu yma yn y Senedd. Croeso i'm cyd-Aelodau a'n tystion ni. Dŷn ni ddim yn disgwyl ymarfer tân y bore yma, so, os dŷn ni'n clywed y larwm, mae hynny'n golygu bod rhywbeth yn bod, a dylem ni ddilyn y tywyswyr allan o'r adeilad. Hoffwn i jest atgoffa pawb i ddiffodd unrhyw ffôn symudol, ac yn y blaen, neu eu rhoi nhw ar dawel, ac atgoffa pawb bod croeso i chi ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg neu Saesneg. Does dim angen i chi gyffwrdd â'r microphones o gwbl—dwi'n siŵr eich bod chi'n gyfarwydd iawn â hyn yn barod—byddan nhw'n gweithio yn awtomatig. Dŷn ni ddim wedi derbyn unrhyw ymddiheuriadau. Oes yna ddatganiadau o fudd oddi wrth fy nghyd-Aelodau? Nac oes.
Good morning, all, and a very warm welcome to today's meeting of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee here in the Senedd. Welcome to my fellow Members and our witnesses. We're not expecting a fire drill this morning, so if we do hear the fire alarm, that means that something is wrong and we should follow the directions of the ushers out of the building. I'd just like to remind everyone to put their phones on silent, or to switch them off, and also remind people that you're welcome to use the Welsh or English language. There's no need for you to touch the microphones at all—I'm sure you're very familiar with this already—they will work automatically. We haven't received any apologies. Are there any declarations of interest from my fellow Members? No.
Felly, gwnawn ni symud yn syth i eitem 2, a chroesawu Angharad Mair ac Euros Lewis. Os dŷch chi jest yn gallu cyflwyno eich hunain ar gyfer y record—jest pwy ŷch chi a phwy ŷch chi'n ei gynrychioli.
Therefore we'll move straight on to item 2, and welcome Angharad Mair and Euros Lewis. If you could just introduce yourselves for the record—just who you are and who you represent.
Angharad Mair, un o gyfarwyddwyr cwmni teledu Tinopolis, ond mae'r ddau ohonom ni yma heddiw fel rhan o'r cyngor cyfathrebu.
I'm Angharad Mair, one of the directors of Tinopolis television company, but we're both here today as part of the communications council.
Fel mae Angharad yn ei ddweud, dwi yma ar ran y Cyngor Cyfathrebu Cenedlaethol, ac Euros Lewis yw fy enw. Dwi hefyd yn gynhyrchydd ac yn ymarferydd ar lawr gwlad.
As Angharad has said, I am also here on behalf of Cyngor Cyfathrebu Cenedlaethol and my name is Euros Lewis. I'm also a tv practitioner and producer.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, a diolch am ymuno â ni. Gwnaf i ddechrau gyda'r cwestiynau. Allwch chi ddweud wrthym ni beth yw'r Cyngor Cyfathrebu Cenedlaethol—beth yw'r corff?
Thank you very much, and thank you for joining us. I'll start with the questions. Could you just tell us what the Cyngor Cyfathrebu Cenedlaethol, the National Communications Council, is?
Mae'r Cyngor Cyfathrebu Cenedlaethol yn fudiad, yn drafodaeth, sydd wedi ymgynnull ynghyd i edrych ar y cwestiwn o ddarlledu mewn ffordd radical. Hynny yw, does dim lot o bwrpas i ni ddod at ein gilydd oni bai ein bod ni yn cwestiynu ein rôl sylfaenol, ac o fewn hynny, i edrych ar y cwestiwn yn greadigol hefyd. Dwi'n credu bod hwnna'n ganolog bwysig. Felly, mae yna amrediad o bynciau wedi'u dosrannu o gwmpas y drafodaeth sydd yn tynnu ar yr arbenigedd sydd yna, a'r profiadau sydd yna, ac o hynny, mi fydd yna bapurau'n cael eu paratoi, ac mi fydd ffrwyth y papurau hynny, wedyn, yn cael ei rannu yn y lle cyhoeddus.
The council is a movement that was drawn together to look at the issue of broadcasting in a radical way. There wouldn't be much purpose for us to assemble unless we questioned our fundamental role, and within that, we also look at the issue creatively. I think that's centrally important. There is a range of issues around broadcasting, drawing on the experience and expertise that we have as a council, and from that, papers are prepared and then the upshot of those papers is shared on a public basis.
Gwych, diolch yn fawr. A sut mae'r cyngor yn ffitio i mewn â'r model arfaethedig ar gyfer darlledu datganoledig?
Excellent, thank you. And how does the council fit in with the proposed model for devolved broadcasting?
Dwi'n meddwl beth sy'n bwysig am y cyngor, mae'n weddol newydd, i ddechrau. Mae yna sawl aelod yn perthyn i'r cyngor sy'n cynrychioli nifer o gwmnïau sy'n darlledu yng Nghymru, ac yn gwneud gwaith yn y maes hwn, a dwi'n meddwl mai un o'r pethau pwysicaf amdano fe yw, rŷn ni wedi clywed sut gymaint dros y blynyddoedd, bellach, am bwysigrwydd darlledu, y deficit darlledu yma yng Nghymru a datganoli darlledu hefyd. Felly, dwi'n meddwl ei fod e'n wych o beth bod criw o bobl yn dod at ei gilydd, yn cyfarfod tair, pedair gwaith y flwyddyn er mwyn, fel y dywedodd Euros, trio chwilio am atebion i'r cwestiynau mawr sy'n ymwneud â darlledu a datganoli. Felly, buaswn i'n dweud ar hyn o bryd mai nid mater o, 'Wel, dyma ein strategaeth ni' yw e; dwi'n meddwl ei fod e'n fwy o, 'Wel, rŷn ni yma heddiw, rŷn ni'n rhan o'r drafodaeth', a dyna beth sy'n bwysig amdano fe.
I think what's important about the council is that it's quite new, first of all. There are a number of Members who represent a number of companies involved with broadcasting in Wales and work in this area, and I think one of the most important things about it is that we've heard so much over the years about the importance of broadcasting and the broadcast deficit here in Wales and there's also been discussion of the devolution of broadcasting. So, I think it's a wonderful thing that a group of people do come together to meet three or four times a year in order to, as Euros said, try and find solutions to the major issues facing broadcasting and devolution. So I would say that, at present, it isn't a matter of us saying, 'Well, this is our strategy'. I think it's more that we are here today, we are part of the debate, and that's why it's important.
Gwych, diolch yn fawr iawn. Gwnaf i droi atoch chi, John, i ddechrau.
Excellent, thank you very much. Turning to John to start off with.
Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. Yes, in terms of possible devolution of broadcasting, I wonder if I could ask you first of all what your view is in terms of whether any aspects of broadcasting should be devolved, and what you see as the benefits and possible drawbacks in terms of what you would like to see.
Wel, dwi'n meddwl mai'r un peth y mae pawb yn gytûn amdano yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd yw bod yna deficit mawr mewn darlledu. O safbwynt y gwaith dŷch chi wedi bod yn ei wneud eisoes, un o'r cwestiynau rŷch chi wedi bod yn gofyn i bobl yw beth yw eu barn nhw am y diffyg mewn newyddion a materion cyfoes. Wel, mae hwnna'n un o'r pethau pwysicaf, dwi'n meddwl, yng Nghymru, ac mae pob un wedi gwneud y pwynt hwnnw. Felly, mae e'n hollbwysig.
Dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n bwysig edrych ar beth fyddai'r gwasanaeth. Beth rydym ni ei angen yma yng Nghymru? Beth sydd ddim gyda ni ar hyn o bryd yng Nghymru? Dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna yn bwynt dechreuol pwysig iawn i chi fel pwyllgor. Ond wedyn, dwi'n meddwl bod angen edrych ar beth allwn ni ei wneud i sicrhau bod hynny, felly, yn gallu digwydd.
Ar hyn o bryd, o safbwynt newyddion a materion cyfoes—a dwi yn meddwl ei fod e'n un o'r pwyntiau pwysicaf—dwi ddim yn gwybod sut mae pobl Cymru yn cael eu newyddion. Does yna ddim digon o raglenni materion cyfoes. Does yna ddim digon o raglenni trafodaeth, yn enwedig yn Saesneg. Ddoe ddiwethaf, roedd rhywun yn dweud wrtha i yn y siop trin gwallt—perchennog y siop yn dweud—nawr bod coronafeirws gyda ni, bod gyda fe ddim syniad lle roedd e fod i gael y wybodaeth hynny o safbwynt Cymru. Achos os nad ydych chi yn digwydd bod adref pan mae newyddion rhanbarthol Cymru ar y BBC, rydych chi wedi ei golli fe'n llwyr, mwy neu lai. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod hynny'n bwynt sy'n hollbwysig i edrych arno.
Dwi'n meddwl mai un gwendid mawr hefyd yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd yw—. Rydym ni yn Tinopolis yn gyfrifol am raglenni dyddiol i S4C—Heno a Prynhawn Da—ac rydym ni yn y rhaglenni hynny yn sicrhau ein bod ni'n gallu adlewyrchu Cymru, p'un ai ei fod e o ran cerddoriaeth, llyfrau, elusennau, sefydliadau, cymdeithasau, y gwaith gwych sy'n cael ei wneud, pobl sy'n cynrychioli Cymru ar lefel fyd eang, ar lefel Brydeinig. Does dim byd fel yna yn Saesneg o gwbl, a dwi'n meddwl bod hynny'n ddiffyg anferthol i ni fel gwlad. Os ydych chi'n rhywun sy'n gweithio yn Saesneg yng Nghymru, does dim platfform gyda chi o gwbl, a dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna yn ddiffyg mawr.
Ac o safbwynt datganoli, dwi'n meddwl mai un o'r pethau pwysicaf i'w wneud i ddechrau yw sefydlu ffordd o weithio fel bod Llywodraeth Cymru a'r Cynulliad yn gallu bod yn rhan o benderfyniadau mawr sy'n cael eu gwneud ar hyn o bryd am ddarlledu yn Brydeinig. Achos os nad ydym ni fel gwlad yn gallu bod yn rhan o'r trafodaethau hynny, dwi'n ofn y bydd pethau yn mynd llawer gwaeth yn hytrach nag yn well.
I think the one issue that everybody's agreed on in Wales currently is that there is a great deficit in broadcasting. From the perspective of the work that you've already done, one of the questions that you've been asking people is what their views are on the lack of news and current affairs, the deficit there. That's one of the most important things in Wales, and I think everybody's made that point. So, it's vital.
I think it's important to look at what the service would be. What do we need here in Wales? What don't we have at the moment in Wales? I think that's a very important starting point for you as a committee. But then, I think there is a need to look at what we can do to ensure that that, therefore, can happen.
At the moment, in terms of news and current affairs—and I do think it's one of the most important points—I don't know how the people of Wales receive their news. There aren't enough current affairs programmes. There aren't enough discussion programmes, especially in English. Yesterday, somebody was telling me in the hairdressers—the owner of the hairdressers was telling me—that now we have the coronavirus, he didn't have any idea of where he should be having the information in terms of Wales. Because if you don't happen to be at home when regional news for Wales is on the BBC, you've missed it completely. So, I think that is an important point to look at.
I think one great weakness in Wales at the moment as well is—. In Tinopolis, we're responsible for daily programmes for S4C—Heno and Prynhawn Da—and in those programmes we ensure that we can reflect Wales, whether it's in terms of music, books, charities, organisations, societies, the excellent work that's being done there, people representing Wales on a global scale, on a UK scale. There is nothing like that in English at all, and I think that is a massive deficit for us as a country. If you're somebody who works in English in Wales, you don't have a platform at all, and I think that is a great deficit.
In terms of devolution, I think one of the important things to do in the initial stage is to establish a way of working so that the Welsh Government and the Assembly can be a part of big decisions that are being made at the moment about broadcasting on a UK level. Because if we as a country can't be part of those discussions, I'm afraid that things will get much worse rather than better.
Euros, oes gyda ti rywbeth i'w ychwanegu?
Euros, anything to add?
Fe fyddwn i'n ategu popeth mae Angharad wedi dweud, ond fe fyddwn i eisiau efallai edrych ar bwynt mwy sylfaenol ynglŷn â'r holl drafodaeth datganoli, a datganoli darlledu yn arbennig, i weld pam fod darlledu heb ei ddatganoli, pam ei fod wedi cael ei gadw o fewn y pwerau cadwedig. Mae pryder am y canfyddiad sydd yn dweud ei fod yn bwysig cadw darlledu o fewn y pwerau cadwedig. Mae'r pryder yna i'w wneud, mewn gwirionedd—. Wel, mae'n edrych ar drosglwyddo grym fel colli gafael ar bŵer hollbwysig o fewn y broses o gynnal unoliaeth y Deyrnas Unedig ac, ar yr un pryd, o weld grym yn cryfhau o fewn gwladwriaeth a allai gael ei gweld fel proto-wladwriaeth. Mae'r canfyddiad yna yn seiliedig ar ddatganoli fel gwleidyddiaeth grym a'r tyndra o rym.
Fe fyddwn i eisiau rhoi fel canolbwynt—a dyma ran o beth rydym ni'n edrych arno o fewn y cyngor cyfathrebu—ein bod ni'n canolbwyntio'r drafodaeth yn nhermau democratiaeth; nid grym, ond democratiaeth. Ac o fewn y cwestiwn o ddemocratiaeth, rydym ni'n dod yn ôl at yr un pwynt sylfaenol yna o, byddwn i'n dweud, angen a photensial, a'r angen yna yn dod â ni i lawr at wahaniaeth go sylfaenol: mai nid symud fyddai datganoli, ond newid. Nid symud grym, ond newid y berthynas sydd rhwng llawr gwlad â llywodraethiant, sydd rhwng dinesydd unigol, yr unigolyn, â'r corff sydd yn ei gynrychioli. Yn rhan o hynny, mae yna ddau air: un yw 'cymdeithas', sef buddsoddi mewn cymdeithas, a'r ail yw 'creadigrwydd', sef buddsoddi yn greadigol.
I would endorse everything that Angharad has said, but I would also perhaps want to look at a more fundamental point on the whole discussion around devolution, and the devolution of broadcasting particularly, in considering why broadcasting is non-devolved and why it is a retained power. There's a concern about the perception that it's important to keep broadcasting within the retained powers. That's a concern about—. It considers transferring powers as losing a grip on crucially important powers in terms of maintaining the unity of the UK, whilst simultaneously seeing powers strengthened within a state that could be seen as a proto-state. That perception is based on devolution as the politics of power and the tensions within power.
I would want the focus to be—and this is partly what we're looking at within the communication council—that we should be focusing the discussion in terms of democracy; not power, but democracy. And within that question of democracy, we return to that same fundamental point of, I would say, the need and also the potential, and that need brings us down to a fundamental difference: that devolution wouldn't be a shift, but a change. Not shifting power, but a change in the relationship between the grassroots and governance, between the individual citizen and the body that represents the citizen. At the heart of that, there are two words: 'society', it's an investment in society, and the second is 'creativity', it's investment in creativity.
Diolch. John.
Thank you. John.
Diolch yn fawr. In terms of the nuts and bolts of change that might happen, though, and what sort of process there might be in terms of bringing more ability to Wales to shape the agenda around broadcasting, do you think that the regulatory framework might be changed, as one step? Would that be an important part of what might happen? In particular, S4C: would you like to see a devolution of powers as far as S4C is concerned?
Yn bersonol, dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n bwysig, pan rydyn ni'n sôn am ddatganoli darlledu, ein bod ni'n sôn am ddatganoli darlledu o safbwynt yr iaith Gymraeg a'r iaith Saesneg, achos dwi'n meddwl bod y ddwy iaith mor bwysig â'i gilydd. O ran rheoleiddio, un o'r gwendidau mwyaf ar hyn o bryd yw bod yna neb yng Nghymru yn gyfrifol am reoleiddio darlledu, a dwi'n meddwl bod hynna'n bwynt hollbwysig sydd angen mynd i'r afael ag e.
Os ŷn ni'n gweld adroddiadau gan Ofcom, prin iawn y maen nhw'n trafod Cymru o gwbl. Mae adroddiad diweddar fan hyn sydd wedi cael ei wneud gan Dŷ'r Arglwyddi yn edrych i mewn i ddarlledu gwasanaeth cyhoeddus. Mae'n drwchus, ond dwi'n meddwl bod y gair 'Cymru' yn cael ei grybwyll unwaith, efallai, a dyna dwi'n meddwl yw sail y broblem sydd gyda ni ar hyn o bryd. Felly, mae'n rhaid inni gael newid.
Yn bersonol, ro'n i'n meddwl ei fod e'n ddiddorol iawn beth roedd Justin Lewis o Brifysgol Caerdydd yn ei ddweud wrth y pwyllgor yma o safbwynt—achos dwi yn meddwl ei bod hi'n broses. Does dim iws inni ddweud, 'Rydyn ni fan hyn heddiw, a fory rydyn ni eisiau gweld hynna.' Mae yn mynd i fod yn broses. Roeddwn i'n meddwl bod beth oedd ganddo fe i'w ddweud yn ddiddorol iawn o safbwynt datganoli darlledu, sy'n golygu, yn y cam cyntaf, rhyw fath o ffederaleiddio fel bod cymaint o lais gan Gymru, yn enwedig yn y newidiadau sy'n digwydd nawr. Beth os yw'r ffi drwydded yn dod i ben? Ble mae hynna'n gadael S4C? Ble mae hynna'n gadael gwasanaeth y BBC hefyd yn Saesneg yng Nghymru?
Felly, dwi yn meddwl mai'r cam pwysicaf cyntaf yw datganoli darlledu a bod hynna, ar y lefel symlaf, yn golygu bod lle ar y bwrdd, mewn unrhyw benderfyniadau, gyda Cymru.
Personally, I think it's important, when we're talking about the devolution of broadcasting, that we're talking about devolving broadcasting in terms of the Welsh language and the English language, because I think that both languages are as important as each other. In terms of regulation, one of the biggest weaknesses at the moment is that there is nobody in Wales responsible for regulating broadcasting, and I think that is an important point that needs to be addressed.
If we look at reports from Ofcom, it's very rare that they discuss Wales at all. There's a recent report here by the House of Lords looking into public service broadcasting. It's very hefty, but I think the word 'Wales' is only mentioned once, and that I think is the basis of the problem that we have currently. So, we have to have a change.
Personally, I thought it was very interesting what Justin Lewis from Cardiff University was telling this committee in terms of—because I think it is a process. There's no use for us to say, 'We're here today, and tomorrow we want to see that.' It is going to be a process. I thought what he had to say was very interesting in terms of devolving broadcasting, which means, as a first step, some sort of federalisation so that Wales has more of a voice, in particular in the changes that are happening now. What if the licence fee comes to an end? Where does that leave S4C? Where does that leave the BBC's service also in English in Wales?
So, I do think that the most important first step is devolving broadcasting and that that, on the simplest level, means room around the table, in any decisions, for Wales.
Byddwn i eisiau ychwanegu at hwnna hefyd a dweud y gallen ni fod yn edrych ar newidiadau mor sylfaenol yn y broses yna o newid. Mae rheoleiddio yn gyson. Mae'n rhaid rheoleiddio mewn lle cyhoeddus, mewn materion cyhoeddus, ond bod y pwyslais yn newid o reoleiddio ar y top i broses sydd yn cyfateb yn agosach at y newidiadau sydd eisoes yn digwydd trwy arweiniad Llywodraeth Cymru ar hyn o bryd gyda'r economi sylfaenol, gyda'r cwricwlwm addysg, lle ŷn ni'n edrych yn fwyfwy ar ysgogi, galluogi a chefnogi. Hynny yw, gosod mewn lle dynamig sydd yn greadigol, lle mae rheoleiddio yno, wrth gwrs, ond nid hierarchaeth rheoleiddiol mohoni ond partneriaeth greadigol.
I want to add to that by saying that we could be looking at quite fundamental changes in the process of change. Regulation is consistent. We need regulation in all public spheres, but the emphasis should shift from regulation from the top to a process that corresponds more closely to the changes that are already happening led by the Welsh Government at the moment in terms of the foundational economy, with the education curriculum, where we are looking more and more at encouraging, supporting and inspiring. So, putting in place a dynamic that is essentially creative, where regulation is there, of course, but it's not a hierarchy of regulation, it's a creative partnership.
Diolch. John.
Just in terms of S4C again, you mentioned the importance of the language, Angharad. Is S4C a special case within the overall arguments around devolution and greater regulation around broadcasting? Should we be looking at S4C as a special case?
Na, dwi'n meddwl bod y ddau cyn bwysiced â'i gilydd. Mae'n rhaid i fi ddweud hynna. Dwi'n meddwl bod yr angen am S4C—wrth gwrs, mae'n rhan hollbwysig o'r tirwedd darlledu yng Nghymru. Y peth pwysig am S4C yw ei fod e'n cael arian digonol, a dwi'n meddwl mai hynna yw'r bottom line gyda S4C, achos mae'n rhaid iddo fe gael ei ariannu'n ddigonol.
Ond ar yr un llaw, mae'n rhaid i'r gwasanaeth Saesneg gael ei ariannu'n ddigonol hefyd, a nid dim ond cael ei ariannu'n ddigonol, ond sicrhau bod yr oriau darlledu yno gyda'r nos hefyd, fel ein bod ni'n cael y gwasanaeth sydd ei angen arnom ni fel pobl Cymru, achos dwi'n meddwl bod y diffyg mor enfawr ar hyn o bryd. Mae mwy o ddiffyg bron, o safbwynt oriau a gwasanaeth, yn Saesneg nac sydd yna'n Gymraeg. Ond mae angen sicrhau bod ariannu digonol i S4C.
No, I think both are as important as each other. I have to say that. I think that the need for S4C—of course, it's a very important part of the broadcasting landscape in Wales. The important thing about S4C is that it has sufficient funding, and I think that is the bottom line with S4C, because it has to be funded sufficiently.
But at the same time, the English service has to be sufficiently funded as well, and not only be sufficiently funded, but to ensure that the broadcasting hours are there in the evening as well, so that we have the service that is required by us as the people of Wales, because I do think that the deficit is so great at the moment. There is more of a deficit, in terms of service hours, in English than there is in Welsh. But there is a need to ensure that there is sufficient funding for S4C.
Diolch.
I think you mentioned the federal model, and Welsh Ministers having more of a say in terms of the licence fee, for example, Angharad. So, you'd see quite a strong case for that as well?
Wel, beth roeddwn i'n ei wneud oedd dyfynnu beth roedd Justin Lewis wedi ei ddweud wrthych chi. Fel un o'r camau cyntaf, roeddwn i'n meddwl bod hwnna yn syniad diddorol iawn. Achos hwnna yw un o'r pynciau pwysicaf sydd gyda ni ar hyn o bryd: beth sy'n mynd i ddigwydd i'r ffi drwydded? Dwi ddim yn meddwl bod y ffi drwydded wedi bod mewn cymaint o berygl ag erioed, a nawr bod ariannu S4C yn dod o hwnnw hefyd—. Hynny yw, rydyn ni'n clywed yn gyson bod y BBC yn cwyno am ddiffyg arian, ond mae angen hefyd i ni nawr sicrhau, o ran ariannu y BBC, bod yna arian digonol yn dod i ddarlledu Cymraeg mas o hwnnw ac i ddarlledu yn Saesneg yng Nghymru hefyd.
Well, what I was doing was quoting what Justin Lewis had told you. I thought that, as one of the first steps, was a very interesting idea. Because that is one of the most important subjects that we have at the moment: what is going to happen to the licence fee? I don't think the licence fee has ever been in such danger, and now that the funding of S4C comes from that as well—. That is, we're hearing all the time that the BBC is complaining about a lack of funding, but there is a need also for us now to ensure that the funding of the BBC includes sufficient funding for Welsh broadcasting in that and for broadcasting in English in Wales as well.
Diolch yn fawr.
Thank you.
Carwyn.
Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Bore da i'r ddau ohonoch chi. Rwy'n cytuno'n hollol â beth sydd wedi cael ei ddweud ynglŷn â beth sydd ar gael i siaradwyr Cymraeg ac i Gymry di-Gymraeg ynglŷn â'r gwasanaeth. Dyw e ddim yn ddigonol ar hyn o bryd. Rydyn ni sy'n gweithio yn y byd gwleidyddol yn gweld hwnna bob dydd, wrth gwrs. Hefyd, rwy'n hollol gytûn â chi, Angharad, pan ŷch chi'n dweud ei bod yn hollbwysig i ystyried y ddwy iaith a nid meddwl—fi'n siŵr bod hwn yn feddylfryd yn Llundain—'Wel, mae'r Cymry yn iawn, achos mae sianel eu hunain gyda nhw.' Mae hwnna'n hollbwysig.
A gaf i ofyn i chi, pe bai datganoli yn dod, pe bai darlledu yn cael ei ddatganoli, beth fyddai'r impact, felly? Yr impact positif, efallai. Ac efallai, os allech chi jest feddwl am pa fath o impact fyddai ar fodel masnachol y cwmnïau yng Nghymru, neu ddarlledwyr yng Nghymru hefyd, a fyddai yna broblem efallai ynglŷn â chael rheoleiddio sydd yn efallai dra gwahanol o'i gymharu â gweddill y Deyrnas Unedig?
Thank you very much, Chair. Good morning, both. I agree entirely with what's been said about what service is available for Welsh speakers and non-Welsh speakers. It isn't adequate at the moment. We who work in politics see that on a daily basis. I also agree entirely with you, Angharad, when you say that it's crucially important to consider both languages and not think—and I'm sure that this is the thinking in London—'Wales is fine, because they've got their own channel.' That's crucial.
Can I ask you, if broadcasting were to be devolved, what would the impact be? The positive impact, perhaps. And perhaps, if you could also think about the impact on the commercial model of companies and broadcasters in Wales, would there be any problems in terms of having regulation that is very different to the rest of the UK?
Wel, mae'r cwestiwn o reoleiddio yn y byd masnachol hefyd mor bwysig achos—fi'n siŵr y byddet ti'n gallu sôn am hwn yn well na fi—yr hyn sydd wedi digwydd gyda radio masnachol. Hynny yw, achos bod dim rheoleiddiwr cryf gyda ni i sicrhau bod gwasanaeth radio cymunedol yn adlewyrchu iaith y gymuned, beth sydd wedi digwydd yw bod yr iaith honno wedi diflannu, ac mae hynny, dwi'n meddwl, yn ofnadwy o safbwynt yr iaith Gymraeg. Ti'n gwybod llawer mwy am hyn na fi.
Well, the question of regulation in the commercial world as well is so important because—I'm sure you'll be able to talk about this better than I can—of what's happened to commercial radio. That is, because there isn't a strong regulator to ensure that a community radio service reflects the language of the community, what's happened is that that language has disappeared, and I think that is terrible in terms of the Welsh language. You know much more about this than I do.
Mae'n eironig bod dadreoleiddio, mewn gwirionedd, a chyflwyno i'r farchnad rydd—. Mae gyda ni esiampl berffaith o fel mae hynny'n amherthnasol neu'n amhriodol i anghenion Cymru. Rŷn ni wedi ymdrechu yn y gorffennol i ddatblygu model sydd yn berthnasol ac sydd yn briodol i'r ffaith bod ein critical mass ni yn dal yn go fach, ac felly o ran y farchnad rydd mewn lle bregus iawn. Ond heb fod yna gefnogaeth sydd yn greadigol i hynny, sydd yn cynnig y peth yna o ysgogi, galluogi a chefnogaeth, mae'n anodd gweld potensial i hynny i brifio go iawn ar lawr gwlad. Yn sicr, dyw'r system reoleiddio sydd ohoni ddim yn ei warchod o gwbl, nac yn galluogi twf ar y potensial organig. Mae'r potensial organig yna. Rydyn ni'n gymdeithas greadigol. Rydyn ni'n gymdeithas o gymdeithasau creadigol. Mae'r awydd a'r gallu a'r dychymyg yna. Ond mae angen ymyrraeth greadigol o safbwynt llywodraethol sydd yn galluogi'r twf yna i ddigwydd ac sydd yn creu'r amgylchedd lle mae'r twf yna yn bosibl.
It's ironic that deregulation, in a way, and opening things up to the free market—. We have a perfect example of how that is irrelevant or inappropriate to the needs of Wales. We have attempted in the past to develop a model that is relevant and appropriate to the fact that our critical mass is still relatively small, and therefore in terms of the free market is in a very vulnerable position. But without creative support for that, that provides that encouragement, that enablement and support, then it is very difficult to see a potential for that to truly develop at grass-roots level. Certainly, the regulation system as it currently exists doesn't safeguard that at all, and neither does it enable growth with that organic potential. The organic potential is there. We are a creative society. We are a society of creative communities. The desire, the ability and the imagination is in place. But you do need that creative intervention from a governance point of view that would enable that growth to happen and creates an environment where that growth is possible.
Rŷch chi wedi sôn fanna am ddadreoleiddio, mewn ffordd, a'r ffaith fod Ofcom ddim yn ddigon cryf i warchod darlledu yn Gymraeg, yn enwedig gyda radio cymunedol. Rydyn ni wedi clywed tystiolaeth sydd yn cadarnhau hwnna, a bod Ofcom wedi dweud, yn ôl y dystiolaeth, taw nid eu dyletswydd nhw yw hybu'r iaith Gymraeg ond i edrych ar ddarlledu. A fyddai'n iawn i ddweud, felly, bod o leiaf rhaid gweld mwy o bwerau er mwyn sicrhau bod radio cymunedol yn adlewyrchu y gymuned? Rŷn ni wedi gweld, wrth gwrs, y lleihad yn yr oriau o ddarlledu yn Gymraeg o achos y ffaith bod Ofcom wedi sefyll yn ôl a dweud, 'Wel, dyw hyn ddim yn rhywbeth i ni.'
You mentioned deregulation there, in a way, and the fact that Ofcom isn't strong enough to safeguard broadcasting in Welsh, in particular in community radio. We've heard evidence that confirms that, and that Ofcom has said, according to evidence, that it's not their duty to promote the Welsh language but to look at broadcasting. Would it be right to say, therefore, that we at least have to see more powers in order to ensure that community radio reflects the community? We've seen, of course, a reduction in the number of broadcasting hours broadcast in Welsh because Ofcom has stepped back and said, 'This isn't something for us.'
Ac mae'r lleihad yna yn dod yn ôl at y diffyg rheoleiddio, nid at y diffyg awydd i greu. Mae'r potensial i gyd yna, mae'r angen i gyd yna—y llwyfan sydd ddim yn bodoli ar hyn o bryd. Ac, o fewn hynny, mae'n bwysig edrych ar radio cymunedol, nid o fewn yr hierarchaeth draddodiadol—hynny yw, rŷn ni'n dal ym model y genedl-wladwriaeth, felly, ac rŷn ni reit ar y gwaelod—ac mi fydd e'n agored i fod ar y gwaelod a phopeth sy'n digwydd i'r gwaelod. Unwaith mae yna unrhyw fath o wasgfa, y gwaelod sydd yn mynd yn gyntaf.
Ond mewn gwirionedd—unwaith eto, dwi'n dod yn ôl at y pwynt yma—mae esiampl yr economi sylfaenol a'r canolbwyntio ar botensial tyfu hirdymor—nid byrdymor, tyfu hirdymor—a'r meddwl creadigol ym mhob maes ar lawr gwlad. Wedyn, mae gyda ni botensial go iawn i ddatblygu ar y lefel gymunedol. Ond mae'r lefel gymunedol yna yn mynd i gyfoethogi pob lefel o'r fanna lan, oherwydd mi fydd uchelgais y gwaith yna yn uchelgais sy'n mynd â ni mas i allu cystadlu ar draws y byd.
And that reduction does bring us back to the lack of regulation, but not to the lack of desire to create. The potential is there, the need is there—it's the platform that doesn't exist at the moment. And, within that, it's important to look at community radio, not within the traditional hierarchy—that's to say, we're still within the nation-state model, and we're at the very bottom of that model—and we are open and exposed at the bottom. Once there is any kind of pressure, it's the bottom of the rung that is first affected.
But in truth—I return to this point—there's the example of the foundational economy and the focus on the potential for long-term growth—not short-term growth but long-term growth—and creative thinking in all areas on the ground. Then you have a very real potential to develop at the community level. But that community level will enhance all levels from thereon up, because the ambition of that work will be an ambition that will take us out and we will be able to compete on a global level.
Ocê. Wel, mae dau gwestiwn ar ôl gyda fi. Yr un cyntaf yw: ydw i'n iawn i ddeall eich bod chi wedi galw am reoleiddio'r wasg brintiedig a hefyd gwefannau? Fyddai hynny'n iawn?
Okay. I have two other questions. The first is: am I right to understand that you've called for regulating the printed press, and also news websites? Would that be right?
Wel—
Well—
Beth oeddwn i'n mynd i'w ofyn wedyn, wrth gwrs, yw: os ydy hynny'n iawn, fel ydych chi'n gwneud hynny? Beth yw'r ffordd o wneud hynny? Efallai fy mod i wedi camddeall, ond beth yw'r sefyllfa ynglŷn â'r—? Os edrychwch chi ar y wasg brintiedig, beth yn gymwys—pa fath o beth ydych chi'n credu ddylai gael ei wneud?
What I was going to ask then is: if that is right, how do you do that? What is means of doing that? Perhaps I've misunderstood, but what is the situation—? If you look at the printed press, what exactly—what sort of thing do you think needs to be done?
Wel, yn sicr, un o'r—. Mae'n rhan o'r pot, onid yw e? Un o'r gwendidau eraill yng Nghymru—roeddwn i'n mynd i ddweud 'mwyaf' eto, ond arall yng Nghymru—sy'n rhan o'r broblem gyfathrebu a'r diffyg yng Nghymru yw'r wasg hefyd. Ac achos bod y wasg mor wan gyda ni yng Nghymru—hynny yw, mae gyda ni un neu ddau o bapurau, ond does gyda ni ddim papurau mawr, trwm, mae pobl yn eu prynu yn aml, sy'n trafod gwleidyddiaeth ac ati. Mae pobl yn prynu'r wasg. Y wasg maen nhw'n ei gael yw'r wasg o Lundain, yn fwy na dim, a dwi'n meddwl nawr, gyda'r ffordd mae papurau'n mynd, fod y diffyg yn mynd i waethygu. Er enghraifft, os gymerwch chi rywbeth fel y Sunday Times, sy'n dal, ar hyn o bryd—os ydych chi'n ei brynu fe yng Nghymru, mae yna erthygl yna o Gymru. Ond os ydych chi'n ei ddarllen e fel rwyf i'n ei wneud—ar fy iPad nawr—does dim. Hynny yw, dŷn nhw ddim yn rhoi hwnnw i mewn, achos dyw e ddim yn rhan o'r prif bapur. Ac felly, dwi'n meddwl, mwy a mwy rŷn ni'n symud i fod yn cael ein gwasanaethau ni i gyd ar y we, bydd hyd yn oed llai o Gymru.
Ac, wrth gwrs, pan ŷch chi wedyn yn cymharu hynny gyda beth sy'n digwydd yn yr Alban, achos, i sôn am y Times eto—bob dydd mae ganddyn nhw adran gyfan o newyddion yr Alban i bawb drwy Brydain. Ond i ni yng Nghymru—rŷn ni mor wan, nid yn unig dyw'r newyddion ddim i ni, ond dŷw'n newyddion ni ddim i weddill Prydain chwaith, ac mae'n rhaid i ni chwilio am atebion. A dwi'n meddwl mai dyna—. Allaf i ddim eistedd yn fan hyn a dweud, 'Wel, dyma beth yw'r ateb.' Mae'n broses. Mae'n rhaid inni chwilio am atebion.
Well, certainly, one of the—. It's part of the mix, isn't it? One of the other weaknesses in Wales—I was going to say 'one of the major weaknesses' again, but one of the other weaknesses in Wales—which is part of this communication problem and this communication deficit in Wales is the press. And because the press is so weak here in Wales—we have one or two newspapers, but we don't have broadsheet newspapers that people buy often and that discuss politics. People turn to the press, and the press that they turn to is the London-based press, more than anything, and I think now, with the way the papers are moving, that deficit is going to get even worse. For example, if you take something like the Sunday Times, which—if you buy it in Wales, then there will be an article about Wales. But if you read it as I do—on my iPad—there is nothing. They don't include that, because it isn't part of the main paper. So, as we move more and more towards accessing all of our services online, there will be even less coverage of Wales.
And, of course, when you then compare that with what happens in Scotland—to talk about the Times again, every day they have a full section of Scottish news for everyone throughout the UK. But for us in Wales—we're so weak, not only do they not cover our news, but our news isn't for the rest of the UK either, and I think we have to seek solutions. I can't sit here and say, 'Well, this is the solution. This is the answer.' It's a process, and we have to seek those solutions.
Cytuno'n hollol. Dyw pobl Cymru ddim yn gofyn digon ynglŷn â'r newyddion maen nhw'n ei gael, yn fy marn i, o'r papurau sy'n cael eu cyhoeddi yn Llundain. Ond, ar hyn o bryd, dwi ddim yn gweld fel y gellir rheoleiddio i ddelio â hynny. Mae e'n broblem—dwi ddim yn dweud bod ateb gyda fi chwaith, ond dwi ddim yn gwybod fel y gallwch chi reoleiddio, yn enwedig nawr rŷn ni'n gweld mwy a mwy o bobl yn darllen ar y we ac yn darllen ar aps. Sut allwch chi reoleiddio newyddion sy'n dod o ap neu safle gwe sydd tu fas i Gymru?
I totally agree. The people of Wales aren't asking enough about the news they receive, in my view, from the papers that are published in London. But, at the moment, I don't see how regulation can deal with that. It is a problem—I'm not saying that I have a solution either, but I can't see how you can regulate that, especially when you see more and more people reading on the internet and apps. How can you regulate news that's come through an app or website that's outside Wales?
Bydden ni—. Dwi eisiau rhoi pwyslais, bydden ni eisiau bod pwyslais, ac, yn wir, o fewn trafodaeth y cyngor cyfathrebu, rŷn ni yn rhoi'r pwyslais, ar ymateb yn greadigol. Ac felly nid cymaint edrych ar reoleiddio ag—. Unwaith eto, dwi'n dod yn ôl at ysgogi, galluogi, cefnogi. Ac, fel mae Angharad yn ei ddweud, does dim byd yn newid dros nos, ond tyfu a phrifio. Mae yna waith diddorol iawn yn digwydd ar hyn o bryd gyda chefnogaeth y Cynulliad, gyda chefnogaeth Llywodraeth Cymru a rhywfaint o arian Ewrop hefyd, gyda Bro360, er enghraifft, lle mae tyfu'r ymwybyddiaeth newyddiadurol o fewn cymunedau'n gam cyntaf tuag at newid meddylfryd lle rŷn ni mewn lle lle rŷn ni'n ddibynnol ar ddarpariaeth yn dod o'r tu fas, lle rŷn ni'n dechrau edrych ar beth allwn ni ddatblygu ein hunain. Nawr, mae mynd o fan yna at rym sydd yn gallu cyfateb i rym y wasg genedlaethol Brydeinig yn dipyn o naid, ond mae'n newid y meddylfryd, mae'n newid y ffocws, ac mae hwnna'n symudiad pwysig iawn, iawn, dwi'n credu.
We would—. I would want to see an emphasis, we would want an emphasis, and, indeed, within the discussions of the Cyngor Cyfathrebu Cenedlaethol, we put the emphasis on creative responses. So, it's not so much looking at regulation—. Again, I come back to supporting, encouraging and inspiring. As Angharad said, nothing's going to change overnight, but there can be incremental developments. There is very interesting work happening at the moment, with the support of the Assembly and the Welsh Government and some European funding too, with Bro360, for example, where developing that journalistic awareness within communities is a first step towards changing the mindset where we're in a place where we're reliant on provision from the outside but we are now starting to look at what we can develop for ourselves. Now, moving from there to something that could correspond to the power of the national British press is quite a leap, but it does change the mindset and it changes the focus, and that is a very important development, I think.
Ocê. Y cwestiwn diwethaf sydd gyda fi yw—. Efallai bod hwn yn sylfaenol iawn, ond beth yw darlledu? Pe buaswn i'n eistedd fan hyn 40 mlynedd yn ôl, byddai pawb yn deall taw darlledu yw radio, teledu, a'r signal a oedd yn dod o'r mastiau ac yn cael ei drosglwyddo i deledu sydd yn y tŷ. Nawr, wrth gwrs, mae gyda ni bethau fel Netflix ac Amazon Prime, YouTube—mae hwnna'n fath o ddarlledu—ac other websites are available, fel bydden nhw'n ei ddweud ar y BBC.
Faint mor bell bydden ni yn wir yn gallu mynd pe buasai darlledu'n cael ei ddatganoli, wrth gofio'r ffaith nawr bod y byd darlledu llawer yn ehangach nag erioed o'r blaen ac wedi mynd mewn i gyfeiriad byddai neb wedi meddwl amdano? Pe buaswn i wedi dweud wrthoch chi, 'Wel, gawn ni wylio rhaglen deledu ar y ffôn' 40 mlynedd yn ôl, byddai pobl wedi dweud, 'Wel, fel mae hwnna'n gweithio?' So, oes yna—? Beth yw'r ffin, neu beth yw'r ffiniau, sydd yna pe buasai darlledu'n cael ei ddatganoli, ynglŷn â beth y byddem ni'n gallu gwneud yng Nghymru, wrth gofio'r ffaith bod siẁd gymaint o raglenni nawr yn cael eu darlledu ar y we tu fas i Gymru?
Okay. My final question is—. Perhaps this is very basic, but what is broadcasting? If we sat here 40 years ago, people would understand that broadcasting was radio and the signal coming from the masts and coming into a television in the home. Now, of course, we have things such as Netflix and Amazon Prime, YouTube—that is a kind of broadcasting—and there are other websites available, as they'd say on the BBC.
How far could we really go if broadcasting were to be devolved, given the fact that the broadcasting world now is much broader than ever before and has gone into a direction that nobody would have thought about? If I'd have told you that we'd be able to view a television programme on the phone 40 years ago, people would have said, 'Well, how's that going to work?' So, what boundaries would exist if broadcasting was devolved, given that there are so many programmes now being broadcast on the web outside Wales?
Dwi'n credu dyna'r peth mwyaf cyffrous am yr holl—. A'r hyn sydd yn bwysig yw inni'n holi'r cwestiynau yma ac yn gwneud hynny gyda chymaint o egni ag y gallwn ni, gyda chymaint o ddychymyg, oherwydd byddwn i'n dweud does dim ffiniau, a mwy na hynny, byddwn i'n dweud bod yna botensial i Gymru lle mae—. Lle mae darlledu wedi'i datganoli i'w gofal, mae yna botensial i Gymru i fod yn arwain, nid ble rŷn ni, mewn lle o ddala lan, fel ein traddodiad ni, ond ein bod ni mewn lle o arwain, ac arwain yn hynny o beth o ran ieithoedd lleiafrifol, diwylliannau lleiafrifol ac mewn sefyllfaoedd lle mae yna fwy nag un iaith a diwylliant o fewn yr un diriogaeth. Mae yna dir eang i ni eto. Rŷn ni'n barod wedi gwneud hynny. Dwi ddim yn dweud hwnna off top fy mhen. Mae yna weithgareddau rŷn ni wedi'u creu yng Nghymru drwy ddarlledu sydd wedi cynnig modelau sydd yn gallu cael eu defnyddio mewn gwahanol rannau o Ewrop ac yn Affrica, yn wir. Rŷn ni wedi'i wneud ef o'r blaen a dwi'n awyddus iawn i gael y cyfle i fwrw hwnna ymhellach fyth, ac yn enwedig gyda'r to ifanc sydd gyda ni'n codi nawr. Mae gyda nhw gymaint o ddychymyg; mae ganddyn nhw gymaint o wybodaeth dechnegol. Dŷn nhw ddim yn gweld ffiniau. Dŷn nhw ddim yn gweld ffiniau o gwbl.
I think that's one of the most exciting things. What's important is that we do pose these questions and do so with as much energy as we can muster and with as much imagination as we can muster because I would say that there are no boundaries, and, more than that, I would say that there is potential—. In a Wales where broadcasting is devolved, then there is potential for Wales to be a leader, not constantly playing catch-up, as has been our tradition; we could be in a leadership position and leading in terms of minority languages, minority cultures, and in situations where there are more than one language and community within the same territory. So, there's a huge amount of work to be done again. We've already done that. I'm not saying this off the top of my head. There are activities in Wales that have been generated through broadcasting that have provided models that have been adopted in various different parts of Europe and in Africa too. We have done this in the past and I am very eager to have the opportunity to take that even further, and particularly with a younger generation. They have so much imagination; they have so much technical know-how. They don't see borders and boundaries.
Dwi'n deall hynny, a dwi ddim yn dweud bod yna ffiniau ynglŷn ag unigolion, ond beth dwi'n moyn—. Beth sy'n—[Anghlywadwy.]—yw gallwch chi ddim rheoleiddio Netflix, neu Amazon Prime neu YouTube chwaith. So, byddai'n bosib, efallai, i reoleiddio darlledu traddodiadol, os gallaf i ei roi e fel yna, ond byddai yna ffin, oni fyddai? Dyw e ddim yn broblem dim ond i Gymru, wrth gwrs. Mae'n broblem i bob gwlad—Gwlad yr Iâ, er enghraifft, lle mae yna iaith sydd â bach iawn o siaradwyr a lle mae Saesneg yn gryf. Byddwn i'n meddwl y byddai—. Mae yna limit, onid oes yna, o ran beth rŷn ni'n gallu gwneud ynglŷn â rheoleiddio.
I understand that, and I'm not saying that there are boundaries existing with individuals, but what—[Interruption.] You can't regulate Netflix, Amazon Prime or YouTube either. So, it would be possible to regulate traditional broadcasting, if I can put it like that, but there would be a boundary, wouldn't there? It's not just a problem for Wales. It's a problem for every country—like Iceland, for example, where there are very few speakers and their English is strong. I would think that—. There's a limit, isn't there, with regard to what you can do in terms of regulation.
O ran rheoleiddio, ond, os ydych chi'n symud y pwyslais oddi ar y rheoleiddio ac yn rhoi'r pwyslais ar y creadigrwydd, ac, yn hynny o beth, os ŷch chi eisiau datblygu trafodaeth â diwylliannau eraill—a dyna'n potensial ni, ontefe? Dylen ni fod mewn lle lle dŷn ni mewn trafodaeth hyderus â diwylliannau eraill, hyd yn oed â un o ddiwylliannau mwyaf pwerus y byd, sydd reit ar stepen ein drws ni. Dŷn ni ddim yn mynd i wneud hynny trwy ail-greu eu cyfryngau nhw. Mae'n rhaid i ni greu ein cyfryngau ein hunain. Mae rhaid i ni greu ein cyfryngau ein hunain yn ein delw ni ein hunain yn ôl anghenion a photensial ein diwylliant ein hunan.
Yes, in terms of regulation, but, if you shift the emphasis away from regulation and place it on creativity, and, in that regard, if you want to develop debate around other cultures—and that's our potential, isn't it? We should be in confident discussions and negotiations with other cultures, even the most powerful culture, which is on our very doorstep. Well, we're not going to do that by trying to recreate their media. We have to create our own media in our own image, according to the needs and potential of our own culture.
Allaf i ateb y cwestiwn yma yn gyflym iawn hefyd? Mewn un ffordd, rhywfaint yn wahanol, o safbwynt ein dyfodol, dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n bwysig iawn ein bod ni'n edrych ar y dyfodol. Mae newidiadau yn digwydd mor gyflym nawr. Pwy a ŵyr, mewn gwirionedd, ble fyddwn ni mewn cwpwl o flynyddoedd? Ond, wrth edrych ar y dyfodol hefyd, dwi'n meddwl nawr ei bod hi'n hollbwysig mai'r peth pwysicaf yw ein bod ni'n edrych ar ble rŷn ni nawr—ble mae'r diffyg yn y gwasanaeth nawr.
Ambell waith, mae'n codi ofn arnaf i pan wy'n clywed rhywbeth fel, 'O, wel, byddwn ni i gyd yn gwylio popeth ar y we cyn bo hir, a bydd dim angen i ni greu cynnwys yn yr un modd ag rŷn ni'n ei wneud nawr ar gyfer pawb i wylio ar un sgrin.' Wel, dyw hynny ddim yn wir. Dwi'n meddwl bydd pobl yn dal i fod eisiau cynnwys mewn ffordd draddodiadol, yn ogystal â gallu cael y cynnwys mewn nifer o ffyrdd gwahanol, a dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n bwysig i ni yng Nghymru ein bod ni'n rhan o'r sbectrwm mawr traddodiadol sydd angen ei ariannu, a sylweddoli bod pobl ar hyn o bryd yn gwylio cynnwys mewn ffordd draddodiadol iawn, yn ogystal â mewn ffyrdd newydd, ac mae angen mynd i'r afael â hwnnw, yn ogystal â chadw llygad hefyd ar beth yw'r newidiadau mawr sy'n digwydd.
Can I answer this question very quickly also? In one way, but a slightly different way, in terms of the future, I think it's very important that we do look at the future. There are changes that are happening so quickly now. Who knows, really, where we'll be in a couple of years? But, in looking at the future, I think it's important now that the most important thing is that we look at where we are now—where is the deficiency in the service now.
Sometimes it frightens me when people say, 'Oh, we'll all be watching everything on the internet soon, and there'll be no need for us to produce content in the way that we're doing now, for people to watch on one screen.' That isn't true. I think people will still want content in a traditional manner, as well as being able to access the content in a number of different ways, and I think it's important for us in Wales that we are part of the great traditional spectrum that needs to be funded, and recognise that people at the moment are watching content in a very traditional manner, as well as in new ways, and there is a need to address that as well as keeping an eye also on what are the great changes that are happening.
Diolch. Jest cyn i fi dynnu David Melding i mewn, jest i ddweud wrth bawb bod gyda ni rhyw chwarter awr arall ar y pwnc pwysig gyda chi. Ac mae ambell i gwestiwn, so os dwi'n gallu gofyn i'm cyd-Aelodau ac i'n tystion i fod ychydig bach yn gryno yn eich atebion a chwestiynau—ac nid ydw i'n edrych ar Carwyn Jones yn hynny o beth. [Chwerthin.]
Thank you. Just before I bring David Melding in, I just want to tell everybody that we've got another 15 minutes on this important subject with you. And there are a few more questions, so if I can ask my fellow Members and witnesses to be brief in your answers and questions, and I'm not looking at Carwyn Jones in that regard. [Laughter.]
Wel, mae e'n bwnc mor gynhyrfus, onid yw e?
But it's such an exciting subject, isn't it?
Wel, mae e, ond mae yna faterion dŷn ni eisiau eu trafod gyda chi bellach hefyd. So, dim beirniadaeth o gwbl, ond mae wastad gyda ni fframwaith o ran amser sydd ddim yn ddigonol, mae'n rhaid i mi ei ddweud. [Anghlywadwy.] Diolch yn fawr. David.
But there are issues that we want to discuss with you further as well. It's not a criticism at all, but we always have a framework in terms of time that isn't sufficient, I have to say. [Inaudible.] Thank you very much. David.
Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. In the first two Assemblies, and possibly well into the third, S4C lobbied aggressively against any devolution of Welsh language broadcasting. It always struck me as very strange, given how central it was in the 1980s and 1990s to the development of the political aspect of Welsh nationhood. But what has changed to get us into this situation? Is it just technological, or has there been a political change as well?
Yn amlwg, allaf i ddim siarad ar ran S4C, ond, wrth edrych ar y mater fel unigolyn, y peth pwysicaf i S4C y pryd hynny—ac sy'n dal i fod—yw bod ariannu digonol. A dwi'n meddwl mi oedd yna ymdeimlad—nid oddi mewn i S4C yn benodol, ond mi oedd yna ymdeimlad cyffredinol, dwi'n meddwl, tra bod yna arian gyda'r Trysorlys a'r DCMS yn Llundain, a bod hwnna yn saff—achos mi oedd e mewn statud ar un adeg—fod hynny bron yn haws i ddelio ag e na bod yr arian yn dod fan hyn, ag o bosib wedyn bod dadleuon gwleidyddol yn codi, fel: 'O wel; hynny yw, mae angen mwy o arian ar ysbytai, mae angen mwy o arian ar addysg, ac yn y blaen.' Dwi wastad wedi meddwl bod honna'n ddadl blentynnaidd iawn, a dweud y gwir: pa wlad sydd heb ei darlledu? Ond dwi yn meddwl bod yr ymdeimlad hwnnw.
Wel, nawr mae'r arian wedi ei drosglwyddo i'r ffi drwydded mwy neu lai yn gyfan gwbl. Dwi yn meddwl bod hi'n bwysig cadw, neu warchod, yr hyn sydd yn parhau gyda DCMS, ond nawr bod yr arian wedi symud i'r ffi drwydded, dwi'n meddwl bod ni mewn tirwedd hollol wahanol, a nawr, yn enwedig bod hwnnw mewn perig, rŷn ni nawr, dwi'n meddwl, yn gorfod edrych ar y safbwynt yma o ddatganoli darlledu.
Clearly, I can't speak on behalf of S4C, but, in looking at the issue as an individual, the most important thing for S4C at that point—and it remains the case—is that sufficient funding is available. And there was a feeling—not specifically within S4C, but there was a general feeling that, whilst the funding was held within the Treasury and DCMS in London, and that was safe—because it was in statute at one point—that was almost easier to deal with than the funding being transferred to this place, and then political arguments could have arisen around it: 'We need more money for hospitals, we need more money for education, and so on and so forth.' Now, I've always thought that that was a very childish argument: what country doesn't have its own broadcasting system? But I do think that feeling existed.
Well, now the funding has been transferred to the licence fee more or less entirely. I do think it's important that we safeguard what remains with DCMS, but now that most of it has moved to the licence fee, I think we're in a totally different landscape, and now, particularly as that is under threat, we do have to look at this issue of devolving broadcasting.
Dwi'n credu hefyd fod ymwybyddiaeth wahanol yn datblygu. Rŷn ni'n edrych ar—mae yna darged cyhoeddus iawn o filiwn o siaradwyr. Wel, i gyrraedd y filiwn o siaradwyr yna, bydd eisiau gwneud rhywbeth heblaw canolbwyntio ar iaith a pholisïau iaith—mae e'n ymwneud â phob peth; mae e'n bopeth. Ac yn hynny o beth, dwi'n credu bod S4C yn ymateb i'r sefyllfa yna ac i'r potensial yna, a bod hynny'n ganolog, mewn gwirionedd, unwaith eto, i'r uchelgais o gael y gallu i osod targedau, i newid y broses yma o edrych ar ddarlledu o'r lle yna lle mae e'n ddarpariaeth, ac mae'n ymwneud gyda rheolaeth, i le rŷn ni'n ennyn ac yn codi dychymyg ac yn gosod nodau uchel i ni ein hunain, ac yn edrych mas yn hyderus ar y byd.
I think also there is a different awareness developing. We're looking at—there is a very public target of a million Welsh speakers. To reach that million speakers, they'll need to not only look at language policies and language—it relates to everything. It's everything. And in that regard, I think that S4C is responding to that position and to that potential, and I think that is central, really, once more, to the ambition of having this ability to set targets, to change this process of looking at broadcasting from that position where it is a provision, and it relates to regulation, to a place where we encourage and we get that creativity and set high aims for ourselves, and look outwards to the world with confidence.
In my view, the arguments for devolving Welsh language broadcasting have always been overwhelming, but there's a reason I'm asking this—it's not just gratuitous. We start with this massively cogent and strong argument for devolving Welsh language broadcasting, but then, Angharad, you talked about a federal system then for broadcasting, including English language broadcasting.
As a first step.
As a first step. I'm glad you repeated it, because I was going to remind you of it. Federal systems are usually seen as settlements, not as parts. They're meant to bring some ordering to the different levels at which optimum decisions are made. Broadcasting, internationally, where there are devolved or federal systems of government, has classically been seen as a shared-governance issue.
I don't like using 'minority language' to describe Welsh, but let me use because it is an international vocabulary. Minority-language broadcasting, invariably, is dealt with by the sub-state, and there is some form of shared model, i.e. the sub-states have representation on the board, they have the right to be heard when major decisions are made, and there's some agreement on the funding model. But the state then is responsible for a large part of broadcasting. So, that's very different.
If that's what you believe, then it's going to be Welsh language broadcasting and nothing else. So, I just wonder why you feel that starting with a federal system is quickly going to lead to greater devolution, which is what I think you expect to see, because that is not the logic of a federal approach at all. And nor was it the professor—I can't remember his name now—it wasn't his view. His view was that this is how it should be, this is the best design, and that's how it would be until technological challenges meant that you couldn't govern broadcasting in that devolved territorial manner.
Wel, os ŷch chi'n gofyn i fi beth fuasai'r cam pellaf—ac mae fy marn i'n ddigon cyhoeddus—buasai'n annibyniaeth i Gymru, felly buasem ni'n rheoli popeth. Beth dwi wedi bod yn trio ei wneud wrth edrych ar y cwestiwn yma yw gweld ble rŷn ni nawr a beth sydd ei angen nawr er mwyn i ni gael darpariaeth a gwasanaeth gwell i Gymru.
Yr ofn sydd gyda fi ar hyn o bryd—yn enwedig gyda'r Llywodraeth bresennol ym Mhrydain—yw bod y ffi drwydded mewn perygl. Beth mae hynny'n ei olygu? Os buasem ni'n gorfod mynd i ryw fath o system lle rŷn ni'n talu am ein gwasanaethau ni, wel dyw hynna ddim yn mynd i fod yn rhywbeth sy'n mynd i gynnal unrhyw beth yn yr iaith Gymraeg, a dwi hefyd yn ofni efallai buasai fe ddim yn rhywbeth fuasai'n cynnal yn ddigonol chwaith yr angen sydd arnom ni fan hyn yng Nghymru gyda gwasanaethau darlledu yn Saesneg hefyd.
Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod angen i ni edrych ar bob math o fodelu, a bod pob cam yn arwain at y llall. Ond y peth pwysicaf oll ar hyn o bryd—dŷn ni wedi bod yn ei drafod e am gymaint o flynyddoedd nawr, ac mae'r byd yn symud mor gyflym o'n blaenau ni, a dwi'n ofni os byddwn ni'n parhau i drafod am flynyddoedd eto, byddwn ni bron, mwy neu lai, wedi colli popeth—yw bod yn rhaid i ni edrych nawr ar beth yw sefyllfa Cymru, sut allwn ni newid honno, a sut allwn ni wella pethau fel maen nhw, achos dyw'r gwasanaeth sydd ar hyn o bryd gyda ni ddim yn ddigon da.
Os gallaf i roi un enghraifft fach i chi o bythefnos yn ôl pan oedd llifogydd difrifol yng Nghymru, ym Mhontypridd a Thaf-Elai ac ati, ar wasanaeth newyddion y BBC, y News at Six, sef y gwasanaeth sydd i fod i Brydain gyfan, wnaethon nhw ddangos map o Gymru a Lloegr yn dangos y llifogydd, ond doedd dim byd ar Gymru; roedd e'n blanc. Gwnaethon nhw ddim sôn am Gymru o gwbl. Mae'r math yma o bethau fel petasen nhw'n gwaethygu yn hytrach na gwella. Felly, dwi'n meddwl, gyda rheoleiddio a gyda'r diffyg mawr sydd yna, os nad ŷm ni'n mynd i'r afael mewn rhyw ffordd neu'i gilydd, mewn ffordd hollol practical ar hyn o bryd a gwthio'r ffiniau i weld ble allwn ni gyrraedd, fyddwn ni ddim yn cyrraedd i unman. Dyna beth sy'n poeni fi fwyaf.
If you're asking me what the ultimate step will be—and my view is publicly known—it's independence for Wales, so we would be in control of everything. What I've been trying to do in looking at this issue is to focus on where we are now and what we need to do now in order to have improved provision of service for Wales.
The fear that I have at the moment—particularly with the current Government on a UK level—is that the licence fee is at risk. What does that mean? If we were to move to a system where we pay a subscription for our services, well that isn't going to be something that would support anything through the medium of Welsh, and I fear that it wouldn't adequately support the need we have here in Wales for English language services too.
So, I do think we need to look at all kinds of models, and that each step would lead to the next. But the most important thing at the moment—and we've been discussing this for so many years now, and the world is moving so quickly ahead of us, and I fear if we continue to discuss it for years to come, we will almost have lost everything—is that we now have to look at what the situation in Wales is, how we can change that, and how we can improve the situation, because the service currently available is inadequate.
If I can give you one minor example of a fortnight ago when there were serious floods in Wales, in Pontypridd and Taff-Ely, in terms of the BBC's News at Six, which is a service for the whole of Britain, they showed a map of England and Wales showing where the floods were, and there was nothing there on Wales; it was blank. They didn't mention Wales once. These kinds of things seem to be getting worse, rather than improving. So, with the regulation and that deficit that we have, unless we tackle it in a practical way first of all and push the boundaries to see where we get to, then we won't get anywhere. That's what concerns me most.
And then my final question is: if you do go to this radical step—and by 'radical', I don't mean it's wrong, incidentally—that it's Welsh and English broadcasting, how do viewers and listeners access UK networks, which they'll want to do, for English content beyond Wales? How is that going to work in this radical reconstruction? Should we assume there's still a BBC but it's made up of four independent units rather than a current federal model?
Wel, dwi ddim cweit yn deall y cwestiwn, a dweud y gwir, achos os ŷm ni'n edrych ar gael lle wrth y bwrdd a bod llais Cymru yn gryf, dwi'n meddwl bod y cwestiwn yma o roi dewis i bobl o Eastenders neu rywbeth o Gymru yn nonsens llwyr. A bod yn onest, dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n ddadl blentynnaidd iawn, iawn, achos nid fel yna mae'r byd darlledu'n gweithio ar hyn o bryd. Os buasai gennym ni ar hyn o bryd sefyllfa le roeddem ni lawer cryfach o fewn y BBC, er enghraifft, bod Cymru â'i sianel ei hun, bod BBC Cymru yn rhywbeth sy'n darlledu gyda llawer mwy o oriau ac arian, buasai hynny ddim i ddweud fy mod i ddim yn gallu gweld Eastenders hefyd. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod yna berygl mewn codi cwestiynau sy'n gallu bod yn rhai binary iawn, sy'n eithaf plentynnaidd mewn gwirionedd pan nid fel yna mae'r byd darlledu yn gweithredu ar hyn o bryd.
Well, I don't quite understand the question, really, because if we're looking at getting a place around the table and that the voice of Wales is strong, I think this question of you giving people a choice of Eastenders or something from Wales, is complete nonsense. I think it's a childish argument, because that's not how the broadcasting world works currently. If we had at the moment a situation where we were much stronger within the BBC, for example that Wales had its own channel, that BBC Cymru Wales was something that was broadcasting with more hours and with more funding, that wouldn't be to say that I couldn't watch Eastenders as well. So I think there is a risk in asking questions that can be very binary, which is quite childish, really, when that isn't the way that the broadcasting world works.
I don't understand your answer. So, in your model, would there still be Eastenders broadcast?
Yes, of course there would be.
Wrth gwrs y buasai.
Of course there would be.
So how would we purchase that, or whatever?
Wel dyna pam rwyf wedi dechrau gyda'r cam y gwnes i ddechrau gyda fe. Achos os buaswn i'n dweud bod BBC Cymru gyda chi, fel BBC yr Alban nawr, sydd wedi cael £30 miliwn er mwyn cael gwasanaeth gwell, os buasai hwnna gyda ni—. Dyw pobl yr Alban ddim ddim yn gweld Eastenders; maen nhw yn gallu gweld popeth arall, ond mae eu gwasanaeth nhw'n well yn fynna. Dyna pam dwi'n dod yn ôl at y pwynt drwy'r amser, yn hytrach na dweud, 'Fan hyn rŷn ni heddiw; fanna dwi eisiau bod yfory'—dyw hwnna ddim yn mynd i ddigwydd, mae'n rhaid inni gymryd y camau yma, a'r peth pwysicaf ar hyn o bryd yw sicrhau gwell gwasanaeth i Gymru er mwyn lleihau'r deficit ac er mwyn, yn y pen draw, cael y ddemocratiaeth rŷn ni'n ei haeddu yma yng Nghymru.
That's why I started at my starting point. Because I would say that, if you had BBC Cymru Wales like BBC Scotland, which has been given £30 million in order to improve the service, now if we had that— . The people of Scotland can access Eastenders. They can view those programmes, but their service is so much better, and that's why I return constantly to this point. Rather than saying, 'This is where we are today, that's where I want to be tomorrow', which is not going to happen, we have to take these steps, and the most important thing at the moment is to secure improved services for Wales in order to narrow this deficit and ultimately to have the democracy that we deserve here in Wales.
Ac yn y ddemocratiaeth yna, byddwn i'n mynd i'r pegwn arall a symud reit bant o'r ddarpariaeth. Mae'r ddarpariaeth yn gorfod bod yna ond, unwaith eto, byddwn i'n dod yn ôl at greadigrwydd. Dwi wedi bod yn gweithio gyda phobl ifanc mewn ysgolion yng ngorllewin Cymru ac rŷn ni'n gwneud gweithdai darlledu. Does gennym ni ddim offer technegol o gwbl, y cyfan rŷn ni'n ei wneud gyda nhw yw dweud, 'Reit, os oes stondinau llaeth yn eich ardal chi sy'n sefyll yn segur ar hyn o bryd, sut ŷch chi'n mynd i ddefnyddio'r rheini i ddarlledu, mewn unrhyw ffordd rŷch chi'n moyn?' Mae'r cwestiwn yn gwestiwn agored, mae'r atebion yn ddiddorol iawn, iawn ac yn llawn potensial. Maen nhw'n croesi pob ffin. Mae rhai ohonynt yn atebion technegol ac mae rhai eraill yn bethau i'w gwneud, negeseuon, pethau i'w trafod—mae'r holl bethau yna—ond y peth mwyaf pwysig yw eu bod nhw'n derbyn yr her o feddwl yn nhermau cyfathrebu a bod ganddyn nhw'r hawl i ddarlledu i'w gilydd ac i'r byd.
And in that democracy, I'd move right away from the provision. The provision has to be there, but once more, I come back to the creativity. I've been working with young people in schools in west Wales, and we conduct broadcasting workshops. We don't have any technical equipment, all we do is say, 'Right, in your area is there anything that's empty at the moment? How are you going to use those to broadcast in any way that you want?' The question is an open question. The responses are very interesting and full of potential. They cross every border. Some of them are technical responses, others are things to do, messages, issues to be discussed, but the most important thing is that they accept the challenge of thinking in terms of communicating and that they have the right to broadcast to each other and to the world.
Rydym ni bron allan o amser. Mae yna gyfres o gwestiynau ar adnoddau ac mae'n bwysig ein bod ni'n trio cyffwrdd ar y rhain. Ydych chi'n iawn i aros am ryw bump neu saith munud arall? I fy nghyd-Aelodau, mae un o'n tystion nesaf ni'n rhedeg yn hwyr beth bynnag, felly mae gennym ni bach o amser. A ydy hynny'n iawn gyda chi, i aros ymlaen am dipyn bach?
We're almost out of time and we do have a series of questions on resources, and it's important that we touch upon these. Are you okay to stay for another five or seven minutes? Fellow Members, just to inform you that one of our next witnesses is running late, so we do have a little leeway. Is that okay with you? Can you stay with us a little longer?
Ydy.
Yes.
Ydy.
Yes.
Gwych. Weithiau mae pobl yn gorfod mynd, felly roeddwn i jest eisiau gofyn. So, cwestiynau ar adnoddau.
Excellent. Sometimes people do have to leave, so I just wanted to ask. So, resources questions.
Resources questions—Mick.
Some of the questions I was going to ask you have been covered, inevitably. Can I just say that I think the analogy of Pontypridd and the coverage is totally wrong? I was just saddened by the fact that the one time Pontypridd actually is almost totally in the UK news is when a crisis or a disaster occurs. But I take the point in terms of the general coverage.
Just coming back to two things, really. A lot of witnesses have given different views in terms of how they see the future of broadcasting, different views on devolution, and what they mean by devolution. One of the common features that's come through is people saying that it's about strengthening Wales's voice. Now, if there were one or two things that could specifically change, or that would at least move us on that road in terms of strengthening that voice, what would it be?
Y cam cyntaf i fi fuasai cryfhau llais Cymru—. Wel, mae dau beth: mae cryfhau llais Cymru oddi mewn i Gymru, wedyn mae cael gwell portread o Gymru yn Brydeinig. Felly, mae'r ddau beth. I fi yn bersonol, dwi'n meddwl mai cryfhau llais Cymru oddi mewn i Gymru yw'r peth pwysicaf. Dwi ddim yn meddwl bod yna wasanaeth digonol i bobl Cymru—newyddion, materion cyfoes, rhaglenni trafod gwleidyddiaeth, yn ogystal â materion ysgafnach o ran beth rŷm ni'n wneud fel Cymry, rhannu gwybodaeth, bod yn rhan o'r wlad yma. Ac wedyn, mae yna ddiffyg arall o ran y portread o Gymru yn Brydeinig hefyd. Dwi'n meddwl ambell waith—. Wel, mae'r portread hwnnw yn hollol annigonol, ond mae'n annigonol hefyd o ran beth sydd yma yng Nghymru.
The first step for me would be to strengthen the voice of Wales—. There are two things: strengthening Wales's voice within Wales, and then there is having a better portrayal of Wales on a UK level. So, there are those two things. For me personally, I think that strengthening the voice of Wales within Wales is the most important issue. I don't think that there is a sufficient service for people in Wales—news, current affairs, political discussion programmes, as well as lighter issues as to what we do as the people of Wales, sharing information, being part of this nation. And then, there is another deficit in terms of Wales's portrayal on a UK level. I think sometimes—. That portrayal is totally insufficient, but it's also insufficient here in Wales as to what we have here in Wales.
I'll just leave that there for the moment because of time.
Os caf i jest ychwanegu at hwnna, unwaith eto, fe fyddwn i'n dod yn ôl at y diffyg democratiaeth, ac mae'r gair 'diffyg' yn Gymraeg yn ddiddorol achos mae yna ddwy elfen iddo fe. Ond mae e'n ddiffyg pa bynnag ffordd rŷch chi'n edrych arno fe, a'r potensial, mewn gwirionedd, i ateb yn uniongyrchol, i greu trafodaethau a galluogi fel mae'r pobl ifanc yna yn meddwl amboutu'r stondin laeth a beth sydd angen i ni ei drafod yn yr ardal yma o ben y stondin laeth yna. Rŷn ni'n mynd reit at ganol ateb y diffyg democratiaeth, ac o greu, wedyn, cyfrwng sydd ddim yn gyfrwng ynddo'i hunain, ond sydd yn gyfrwng i wneud gwahaniaeth, a'r gwahaniaeth yna yn wahaniaeth o ymbweru. Pan mae gennym ni gymdeithas yn ymbweru, mae gennym ni botensial o filiwn o siaradwyr. Pan mae'r gymdeithas yn ymbweru, mae gennym ni economi sylfaenol sydd yn tyfu; mae gennym ni wasanaeth addysg sydd yn ymateb i'r anghenion a'r potensial yn lleol. Ac felly, mae e'n symud o'r monolith; mae'r monolith darlledu yna yn datgymalu. Mae'r amser yn iawn i ni ddechrau meddwl—mwy na dechrau meddwl; dechrau gweithredu—o fewn y lle lle nad yw'r ffiniau yna yn bodoli.
If I may, just to add to that, I would look, once more, I'd come back to this democratic deficit, and the word 'deficit' in Welsh, there are two elements to it. But it is a deficit whatever way you look at it, but the potential, really, to respond directly, to create a discussion and enable, as those young people think about the milk stand and what we need to discuss in this area from the top of that milk stand. We go straight into responding to the democratic deficit, and in creating, then, media that is not media in itself, but communicating to make a difference, and that difference is empowering. When we have a society that is empowering, we have the potential for 1 million Welsh speakers. When society is empowered, we have a foundational economy that grows and flourishes; we have an education system that responds to the needs and requirements on a local level. So, it moves from the monolith; that broadcasting monolith is coming apart. The time is right for us to think—not just to think, but to act—in that place where those boundaries don't exist.
Okay. If I can just take you on the issue of money, Wales is a net beneficiary, according to the figures we have, under the licence fee, and so on. Funding is clearly a fundamental part of it. What are the risks, in any devolved structure, that we actually get into a consequential type of funding that means that we actually end up with less money? How would we, within a devolved system, guarantee the sort of funding that we're getting at the moment? Do you think that it is a reasonable presentation that we are fairly funded at the very least, not necessarily in terms of what the outcomes are, but in terms of the amounts of funding that are available? What's your view on that funding issue?
I'll just throw in as well, just because of time, suggestions of taxation. There's been talk about a tech tax and all sorts of consequential competence issues, and so on. But what's your view on the fundraising capacity within Wales as to what we could do?
Gwasanaeth cyhoeddus yw'r BBC a dyna pam mae pawb yn talu'r ffi drwydded, a dwi'n meddwl mai un o'r problemau oddi mewn i'r BBC ar hyn o bryd yw, o bosib, ei fod e'n anghofio'i remit gwasanaeth cyhoeddus, ac yn trio bod yn bopeth i bawb trwy'r amser. Dyna un o'r rhesymau nawr mae'r Llywodraeth yn edrych arno fe ac yn dweud, yn enwedig pan efallai fod cystadleuwyr yn teimlo eu bod nhw o dan anfantais achos bod y BBC yn cael yr holl arian yma a'u bod nhw'n gallu gwneud popeth—. Ond os oeddech chi'n edrych ar wasanaeth cyhoeddus a beth yw gwasanaeth cyhoeddus i fod, sef rhywbeth sydd yn talu am bethau achos bod y farchnad ddim yn gallu gwneud, wel, buaswn i'n dadlau wedyn fod yr iaith Gymraeg yn dod yn agos iawn i dop y list o beth ddylai gael ei wneud. Buaswn i hefyd yn dadlau bod yr iaith Gymraeg yn perthyn i Brydain gyfan; mae'n un o'r ieithoedd hynaf felly dwi'n meddwl bod gwarchod hynny yn rhywbeth sy'n hollbwysig. Buaswn i hefyd yn dweud wedyn fod gwasanaeth cyhoeddus yn golygu bod yn rhaid ariannu'n iawn wahanol elfennau o fewn Prydain hefyd, ac mae hynny'n golygu Cymru, yr Alban a rhanbarthau eraill yn Lloegr hefyd. Felly, dyw hynny ddim yn digwydd ar hyn o bryd. Dwi'n gwybod efallai y buasai'r BBC yn dadlau, 'Wel, mae hyn a hyn o arian yn dod i Gymru ac ati.' Mae yna resymau penodol pam fod gennym ni'r angen am y gwasanaeth cyhoeddus hwnnw, a dwi'n meddwl bod angen inni weiddi'n groch amdano fe.
The BBC is a public service and that's why everyone pays the licence fee, and I think that one of the problems within the BBC at the moment is perhaps that it forgets its public service broadcasting remit, and tries to be all things to all people at all times. That is one of reasons now that the Government is looking at it, particularly when competitors feel that they are disadvantaged because the BBC gets all of this money and they can do all things for all people. But if you look at public service and what public service is supposed to be, namely something that fills a gap left by the market, then I would argue that the Welsh language comes very close to the top of the list in terms of what should be done. I would also argue that the Welsh language belongs to the whole of the UK; it is one of the oldest languages of these isles and I think safeguarding that is crucially important. I would also go on to say that public service would mean that you need to adequately fund the different elements within the UK, and that means Wales, Scotland and the English regions too. So, that isn't happening at the moment. I know that the BBC might argue, 'So much funding is provided for Wales and so on', but there are specific reasons why we have this additional need for public service broadcasting, and I think we do need to make that point very strongly indeed.
Does that not counter the view you're pushing, which is really for a devolved and independent sector et cetera, whilst at the same time wanting the contributory factor of the distribution of the licence fee towards those objectives? Isn't that sort of funding actually dependent on a sort of federalist, co-operative relationship?
Wel, yn y pen draw, wedyn, buasai'n rhaid i Gymru fel gwlad edrych ar ba fath o ddarlledu maen nhw'n moyn. Dwi yn teimlo ambell waith, achos ein bod ni'n rhan o Brydain, rŷn ni'n gymdogion i Loegr—achos bod y BBC wedi bod yn rhan o'n seici ni ers i'r BBC gael ei greu ac arwain y byd mewn gwirionedd, bod ni'n rhyw fath o deimlo mai dyna'r unig ateb sydd. Ond pan rŷch chi'n edrych ar wledydd Ewrop, mae pob un ohonyn nhw â darlledu cyhoeddus ac mae pob un ohonyn nhw'n talu am ddarlledu cyhoeddus mewn ffyrdd sy'n hollol wahanol. Mae'n anodd iawn edrych ar unrhyw wlad a dweud, 'Wel, dyna'r ffordd neu dyna'r ffordd neu ddim fel yna.' Ond mae yna ffyrdd gwahanol ac mae pob gwlad arall yn gwneud hynny. Mae e'n greiddiol i ddemocratiaeth gwlad. Felly, dwi'n siarad am nawr, ond wrth siarad am y dyfodol, wrth gwrs bod angen ariannu digonol, ac mae'n fater wedyn o edrych a gwneud gwaith ymchwil ar ba fath o wahanol esiamplau o ddarlledu cyhoeddus sydd yna trwy Ewrop, trwy weddill y byd, i weld sut buasem ni yng Nghymru wedyn yn sicrhau bod gwasanaeth cyhoeddus, digonol ymhob ffurf ar gyfer ein pobl ni.
Well, ultimately, then, Wales as a nation would have to look at what sort of broadcasting it wants. I do feel on occasion that because we are part of the UK, we are neighbours to England—because the BBC has been part of our psyche since it was established and was that world leader, we sometimes feel that that's the only solution. But when you look at other European nations, then every one of them has public service broadcasting and every one of them pays for public service broadcasting in ways that are entirely different. It's very difficult to look at any nation and say, 'Well, that's the best approach, that's the best approach or that's not the way to do it.' But there are different approaches and every other country adopts those approaches. It is at the heart of the democracy of the nation. And I'm talking about now, but in looking to the future, then of course we need additional sufficient funding, and it's then a matter of doing the research and looking at what different models of public service broadcasting exist throughout Europe and throughout the rest of the world, to see how we in Wales would ensure that there is adequate public service for our people.
Ac o fewn hynny, o fewn y ddadl ddemocrataidd yma o gryfhau democratiaeth, wel, wrth gwrs, mae ariannu yn ganolog i'r cwestiwn yna, onid yw e—i'r holl beth? Ond bod yr ariannu ar ddarlledu datganoledig yn seiliedig ar allu y grym o ddarlledu, y pŵer o ddarlledu, i weithredu ar draws yr holl seilos gweithredol sydd yn cryfhau economi, iechyd, addysg ac yn y blaen.
And within that, within the democratic argument of strengthening democracy, then, of course, funding is central to that question, isn't it—to all of it? But that that funding on devolved broadcasting is based on the ability of the power of broadcasting to operate across the whole active silos that strengthen the economy, health, education and so forth.
Ac un o'r syniadau hefyd oedd gyda'r cyngor cyfathrebu oedd codi toll neu godi treth ar Netflix, Amazon ac ati. Wel, pan soniwyd am hynny, ar y pryd doedd Llywodraeth Prydain ddim wedi sôn am hynny, ond nawr mae hwnna'n rhywbeth maen nhw'n edrych yn wirioneddol ofalus arno, ac wrth gwrs y dylen nhw—mae'n hollbwysig eu bod nhw'n gwneud. Ond beth os ydyn ni fan hyn yng Nghymru mewn sefyllfa lle mae hynny yn digwydd, ac yn digwydd yn llwyddiannus, ond mae'n digwydd o fewn cyfundrefn Llywodraeth Prydain? A'u bod nhw'n dweud, 'Grêt, mae'r holl dreth ychwanegol yma gyda ni nawr—rŷn ni'n mynd i'w wario fe ar fynd â HS2 i'r Alban.' Hynny yw, dyna pam mae hi mor bwysig ein bod ni nawr yn rhan o'r trafodaethau a'r dadleuon yma.
Gaf i hefyd ddweud, mae'n anodd mewn gwirionedd pan rŷn ni'n trio trafod—? Nid pwyllgor yw hwn sydd ddim ond yn gorfod edrych ar y dyfodol, rŷn ni'n gorfod trafod problemau nawr. Ac felly, dwi'n meddwl bod yna ddeuoliaeth yn fanna. Mae'n anodd; mae'n anodd sôn am y ddau beth yr un pryd. Dyma'r dyhead yn y dyfodol ond, hec, yn y fan hyn rŷn ni nawr, ac ar hyn o bryd, fan hyn rŷn ni nawr sydd bwysicaf, ac rŷn ni'n rhedeg mas o amser yn glou, dwi'n meddwl, i fynd i ymdrin ag e.
And one of the ideas of the cyngor cyfathrebu was to raise a levy or a tax on Netflix, Amazon and so on. Well, when that was mentioned at the time, the UK Government hadn't discussed that, but that's something that they are now looking at very carefully indeed, and of course they should—it's crucial that they do that. But what if we in Wales are in a position where that does happen, and happens successfully, and happens within the UK Government system? And they say, 'Well, great, we have this new tax revenue—we're going to spend it on taking HS2 to Scotland.' That's why it's so important that we are now part of those discussions and debates.
May I also say that it is difficult when we are trying to—? This isn't a committee that simply has to look at the future, we have to look at the problems that currently exist. So, I do think that there is a dichotomy there. It's difficult to talk about both things simultaneously. This is our future aspiration, but, heck, this is where we are now, and it's the here and now that's most important for me, and we are running out of time quickly in dealing with this issue.
Well, I think we're running out of time in other ways as well. But just on to one question, then, because I had this down, and it's one I wanted to ask. Things like Alexa and so on: these play quite an increasingly important roles within our lives and our psyche and so on. Do you think there will ever be an Alexa that can actually pronounce Tonyrefail?
Yes. Or anything in Welsh.
Dwi'n nabod un sydd yn byw yn Nhreherbert, ac mae'n gallu dweud 'Tonyrefail' yn dda iawn. Alexa Roberts, dwi'n credu yw hi. [Chwerthin.]
I know somebody who lives in Treherbert, and they can say 'Tonyrefail' very well. Alexa Roberts—that's her name, I believe. [Laughter.]
Mae'n un o'r pethau mae'n rhaid inni fynd i'r afael ag e hefyd, onid yw e? Hynny yw, mae modd gwneud y pethau yma. Wrth gwrs bod modd eu gwneud nhw—p'un ai eu bod nhw'n dechrau o fan hyn, a bod y gwaith yn cael ei wneud, neu eu bod nhw'n cael eu gwneud mewn partneriaeth â'r cwmnïau sy' gyfrifol am y pethau yma. Dwi'n meddwl mai un o'r pethau gorau sydd gyda fi ar fy ffôn yw satnav sy'n siarad gyda fi yn Gymraeg yn berffaith—hynny yw, mae'n dweud 'Bant â ni', a bant â ni, ac mae'n rhoi'r cyfarwyddiadau. Mae hynny yn bosib. Mae'r newidiadau yma yn digwydd. Mae ffyrdd o'u gwneud nhw, ac mae hwnna'n rhywbeth sydd angen mynd i'r afael ag e, naill ai mewn partneriaeth o ryw—. Mae'r cwmnïau masnachol yma, er bod Cymru'n fach ac er bod yr iaith Gymraeg yn fach, maen nhw eisiau cadw'u cwsmeriaid nhw'n hapus hefyd, ac mae eisiau mynd i'r afael â'r pethau yna, fel bod—. Hynny yw, fel y buasem ni'n gallu dweud, 'Alexa—golau, plis.'
It's one of the things that we have to tackle, isn't it? Because these things can be done. Of course they can be done—whether they start here and that the work is done here, or if they're done in partnership with the companies responsible for these things. I think one of the best things that I have on my phone is a satnav that speaks to me in perfect Welsh, and tells me, 'Bant â ni'— off we go—and gives me directions in Welsh. That's possible and these changes are happening. There are ways to achieve these things and that's something that needs to be addressed, either in partnership—. Because these commercial companies, although Wales is small and although the Welsh language is small, they want to keep their customers happy, and we do need to address those issues, so that we could say, 'Alexa—golau, plis'—light, please.
A'r potensial wedyn yw: nid bod ni'n adweithiol, fel yn yr enghraifft yna, ond bod ni'n rhagweithiol; ein bod ni'n creu y peth nesa. Ac mae hwnna yna. Mae hwnna yna i ddigwydd.
And the potential is: not that we react, as in that example, but that we are proactive and that we create the next thing. And that is there. That is there to happen.
Felly, os oes gyda ni satnav sy'n medru siarad Cymraeg, does dim rheswm pam na fydd gyda ni Alexas neu'r equivalent sy'n siarad Cymraeg.
So, if we have a satnav that can speak Welsh, there's no reason that we can't have Alexas or the equivalent that can speak Welsh.
A dwi'n cofio'r adeg pan oedd Microsoft hefyd, pan ddaethon nhw mewn, yn sicrhau bod popeth fuasech chi'n gweld ar sgrin y cyfrifiadur yn gyfan gwbl Gymraeg hefyd. Hynny yw, mae popeth ar fy ffôn i hefyd yn Gymraeg hefyd, felly mater o fod yn rhan o'r sgwrs—.
There was a time when Microsoft came in and ensured that everything you saw on your computer screen was available entirely through the medium of Welsh, too. Everything on my phone is available in Welsh, so it's a matter of being part of the conversation—.
Ac mae'n dod o'r meddylfryd o ysgogi, galluogi, cefnogi, ac mae rhaid i rywun gymryd yr awenau yna. Dyna beth fyddai darlledu datganoledig yn fwy rhydd i'w wneud, a rhoi hwnna yng nghyd-destun yr holl gwestiynau datblygu cymunedol, datblygu economaidd, datblygu er ein lles cenedlaethol.
And it comes from that mindset of encouraging, inspiring and enabling, and someone does have to take the reins in doing that. And that's what devolved broadcasting would be free to do, or freer to do, and to put that in the context of all of these questions around community development and economic development, and developing our own national well-being.
Mae'n rhaid imi ddod â'r sesiwn i ben. Diolch yn fawr i chi am eich amser, ac yn enwedig am yr amser ychwanegol.
I have to bring the session to an end. Thank you very much for your time, and in particular for the additional time.
Allaf i ddiolch i chi hefyd am gynnal y trafodaethau yma, sydd mor bwysig eu bod nhw'n cael eu cynnal?
May I thank you also for holding these discussions, which are so important, and it's important that they are undertaken?
Wel, wrth ymateb, wrth gwrs, am y cais—. Dyna pam wnaethon ni ofyn i'r cyhoedd beth oedden nhw am inni ei drafod—roedd hwn yn un o'r pynciau roedden nhw am inni ei drafod, so ymateb i alw Cymru rŷn i.
So, diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am y dystiolaeth ddefnyddiol iawn, ac fel rŷch chi'n gwybod, byddwn ni'n anfon transcript i chi er mwyn ichi sicrhau bod popeth yn gywir. Hefyd, dŷn ni yn nyddiau cymharol gynnar yr ymchwiliad yma. Roeddech chi yn eich tystiolaeth yn ymateb i rai o'r pethau roedd tystion ynghynt wedi dweud wrthym ni'n barod, so os oes pwyntiau yn codi fel mae gwaith y pwyllgor yn mynd yn ei flaen—os dŷch chi am ychwanegu rhywbeth ar bapur neu sgwennu mewn atom ni i ymateb i beth mae gyda thystion eraill yn ei ddweud, croeso cynnes ichi wneud. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Well, in responding to a request—. That's why, when we asked the public what they'd like us to discuss, this was one of the subjects that they wanted us to discuss, so this is a response to a demand from Wales.
So, thank you very much for your very useful evidence, and as you know, we will send you a transcript to check for factual accuracy. Also, we are in the early days of this inquiry. In your evidence, you are responding to some of the issues that earlier witnesses had already told us, so if points do arise as the committee's work goes on—if you want to add something on paper or in writing in response to what other witnesses say, you're more than welcome to do that. Thank you very much.
Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Thank you very much.
Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Thank you very much.
So, dŷn ni'n dal i ddisgwyl.
So, we're still waiting.
We're still waiting for one of witnesses who is running a little bit late.
So, can we take the paper to note now? Are you okay with that? And just—there it is. Are we happy just to note it, or is there anything we—?
That hasn't bought much time, has it? [Laughter.]
Not really, no. [Laughter.] Doing my best, doing my best. So, are we happy just to note? Okay.
Do we know where our witnesses are? [Interruption.] Yes, so shall we take a quick break, grab a cup of tea, if we need to, and be back in about five minutes? [Interruption.] Well, we could also do—. There are a couple of things we need to do in private session, so we could do the private session before we hear the witnesses, if it comes to it. [Interruption.] Yes. Well, it's partly that, but there are a couple of other things that the clerks would like to raise with us that we could deal with. [Interruption.] Yes, so if we take a five-minute break now and see where we are after that, yes?
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:29 a 10:46.
The meeting adjourned between 10:29 and 10:46.
Bore da a chroeso cynnes i'r ddau ohonoch chi i'r pwyllgor.
Good morning and a very warm welcome to both of you to the committee.
A very warm welcome to you both.
A wnewch chi gyflwyno'ch hunain ar gyfer y record? Llion Iwan.
If you'd like to introduce yourselves for the record. Llion Iwan.
Llion Iwan o Gwmni Da.
I'm Llion Iwan from Cwmni Da.
Dwi'n deall eich bod chi wedi cael tipyn o daith y bore yma, so diolch yn fawr iawn am fod gyda ni. Martyn.
I understand that you've had quite a journey this morning, so thank you very much for attending. Martyn.
Martyn Ingram, Wales & Co.
Okay. We're obviously starting a little bit late, so we'll probably run this session through until about 11.15 a.m., if that's okay with you both. Yes.
If I can go straight to John Griffiths to start with.
John i ddechrau.
John to start.
Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. The first question, really, is about devolution, of course, and what aspects, if any, you believe should be devolved to Wales and what benefits you would see accruing from the devolution that you'd like to see.
For me, it has to have a positive outcome, as I suppose with anything with devolution. What can it do and, therefore, what are the challenges? I think I mentioned before that there are a number of challenges in Wales and the biggest is to put together the public service broadcasting and protect public service broadcasting. Every time I come here there's another example where public service broadcasting is important. I've come here today and I think, through this present crisis, coronavirus, doesn't it emphasise the need for trusted sources of information at times of national crisis and also scrutiny—done in a responsible way—of decision makers? I'm sure you've got your opinions on how the public service broadcasters have done so far; I think they've done quite well, but I find it fascinating that, in a couple of days, the Government is setting up an anti-fake news site, aren't they, to actually squash all the fake news that's going around about coronavirus? I ask the question: who are the public going to believe: a Government website or a trusted brand, whether it be BBC or ITV—or a more trusted brand, anyway? So, I think that just, in the sense of the importance in Wales of that public service information brand that is the BBC in Wales, ITV, S4C—I think protecting that would be my key thing. I ask the question: if you devolve more power to the Assembly, is it going to be a stronger protector of public service broadcasting in the information, journalism, scrutiny field than the present set-up? If you were to push me, I'd say I think it could, but it's got to prove it could in a way as well, in the environment.
Quickly, my other two areas—I think S4C has always, to me, been slightly anomalous in the way it's run, the authority, and I can see a very strong case for bringing S4C into a much more devolved situation and set-up. And the third area I think would be the test for me if it was devolved is that sense of representation and the creative industries as an economic force. Could the Assembly do both—that's representation of Wales on national screens but also as the business model, could the Assembly more support—? I know it's got the role now, but could it take more control in supporting the economic benefits to the creative industries, which can be immense in Wales, as you will know? So, I think probably I would say I would like to see more authority control given to Wales over those areas, but it's proving the case that it would be better and more effective to achieve what I think is an important objective.
Okay, thank you, Martin.
I'll just say it in Welsh.
Gallaf i siarad am brofiad o ran gweithio yn y diwydiant ar y funud, a beth yw'r sefyllfa o'r ochr cwmnïau annibynnol yn gweithio yn y diwydiant.
Mae'r system sydd yn bodoli ar y funud, lle rydyn ni'n gallu lobïo trwy wahanol gyrff, drwy Lundain, a'r levers sy'n digwydd efo grym, wedi bodoli am ddegawdau. Mae yna bethau o'u plaid ac yn eu herbyn nhw. Wedyn, gyda dyfodiad y Llywodraeth a'r Cynulliad, mae yna bwyllgorau wedi edrych ar faterion yn ymwneud â darlledu sawl gwaith. Dwi wedi cymryd rhan mewn un ohonyn nhw. Felly, mae'n fy nharo i fod gennych chi yn barod—rydych chi yn sylwebu, rydych chi'n craffu, rydych chi'n mynegi barn a chyhoeddi adroddiadau manwl ar y byd darlledu yma yng Nghymru. Felly, mae'r craffu yn digwydd yn barod. Dydy'r grym ddim wedi'i ddatganoli, wrth gwrs.
Ond, o'm rhan i, fel rhywun yn y diwydiant, rydym ni'n gallu gweithio efo'r darlledwyr, rydym ni'n gallu lobïo'r gwleidyddion yma yng Nghymru ac yn Llundain, a hyd yn oed pan ddaeth y newid mawr o ran S4C 10 mlynedd yn ôl, roedd yna ffyrdd o lobïo, felly. Mae'r sefyllfa fel y mae wedi bodoli hyd yma wedi gweithio, ond mae'n iawn wedyn, eich bod chi, fel Cynulliad wedi datganoli, yn edrych ar y broses a sut mae o ar y funud. Beth mae Martyn wedi cyfeirio ato, felly, y gynrychiolaeth o Gymru ar sgrin ac yn y cyfryngau, yn y ddwy iaith, o Gymru i gyd—hwnna ydy'r mater sydd angen edrych a chraffu arno fo yn agosach, dwi'n meddwl, ar y funud. Efo pwysau ar gyllidebau, ydy newyddiaduraeth, ydy'r rhaglenni sydd ar y sgrin, ydy'r portread o Gymru, yn gyflawn? Felly, yn barod, rydych chi yn gallu gwneud hynny, o dan y system sy'n bodoli yn barod, cyn bod yna ddatganoli darlledu, felly.
I can speak of the experience of working in this industry at the moment, and what the situation is in terms of the independent sector within the industry.
The current regime, where we can lobby through various bodies in London, and the various levers available in terms of where power lies, have existed now over a period of decades. There are pluses and minuses with that, and with the inception of the Assembly and the Welsh Government, committees have looked at broadcasting issues on a number of occasions. I've participated in one of those inquiries and it strikes me that you do already scrutinise and express views and publish detailed reports on broadcasting here in Wales. So the scrutiny's already happening, but the power isn't devolved, of course.
But from my perspective as one working within the industry, we can work with broadcasters, we can lobby politicians, both here in Wales and in London, and even when the major change in terms of S4C was introduced 10 years ago, there were lobby routes available to us. So the situation as it's existed to date has worked, but it is right, of course, that you, as an Assembly, should look at the process and how it's currently working. What Martyn's mentioned in terms of the representation of Wales on our screens in both languages—that is the issue that we do need to scrutinise more closely at the moment. With pressure on budgets, do the journalism and the programmes that appear on screens portray Wales in a holistic manner? So, you can already carry out that scrutiny under the system that currently exists prior to the devolution of broadcasting.
Diolch yn fawr. You said, Martyn, that you see a special case for S4C. Is that something you would agree with, Llion—that there's a separate and perhaps stronger case for devolution of powers as far as S4C is concerned?
You mean to single out S4C?
Is there a particular case for devolution of powers to Wales and the Assembly in terms of S4C?
No, I think if you're looking at broadcasting, generally, everything should be included in that—all the media in the languages, and if you're going to be looking at the broadcasting, again there's ITV, BBC and also the output on the other channels that are covering or representing Wales.
Okay. In terms of regulatory framework, is there anything in particular you would highlight? Obviously, you'd like to see full devolution of everything, Llion, but it may be that there would be a process that might see some initial steps, we don't know—but is there anything in particular in terms of the regulatory framework that you think we should particularly consider as a committee?
I think it's a requirement on public service broadcasters, coming back to this, for Welsh context. ITV has that, and for me, the bigger question is where intervention works in the marketplace, to actually give the people of Wales a full sense of identity and information. It's how much, if devolved to the Assembly, to intervene in regulatory terms, or pressurise to intervene. I look at radio, which I worked in for a long time, and if you look at the commercial sector now in Wales, there virtually is no commercial information sector, news, et cetera. It is all gone to the BBC, the requirement. So it's how much you can intervene in the marketplace, which I think is difficult, and whether the Assembly would see a position in a regulatory—. I think you have to put something in place—you know, kind words butter no parsnips. You can say that you're doing things, but without regulatory elements for, in the broader sense, commercial broadcasters, the BBC—ITV is in a different situation—I think the market does not, for me, supply Wales with what it needs, and that is across the whole media. I won't go into newspapers, but we know the sad state of the newspapers, et cetera.
So, I think there is a real sense for intervention in the market, as much as you can, and that has to be through some form of regulatory procedure so that Wales gets a fair share of coverage, time, et cetera for across a range of our areas. I don’t just mean news and current affairs and politics; the national debate, documentary, drama—we need it and the market won't supply it. So, I think there have to be some regulatory elements to it.
Okay, and would you see merit in—we had evidence the other week that a federalised model might be advantageous for Wales, in some ways, and it might, for example, give Welsh Ministers a direct say in the licence fee and all the issues around that. Do you see merit in that approach?
I do, going back to a point that Llion made about getting our voice heard, I think that that is so essential, through the broadcasting. Having, a number of years ago, been involved with getting the BBC to devolve and getting the voice heard, and I spoke to some of you about actually getting behind that, and I think it's getting the voice heard in the federal system. So, anything that can take Wales's case directly is good for me, and I think, sometimes, we're a little far away from the levers of power. I think devolution and bringing a political pressure, to be honest, to achieve the general consensus, I think, of what we need in Wales, I would see as definitely advantageous.
Okay. Diolch yn fawr.
Llion, ydych chi am ychwanegu at hyn o gwbl?
Llion, do you have anything to add to that?
Do you want to add to that?
Na.
No.
Thank you. Welcome, both. That there is market failure is beyond dispute, in my eyes. Every witness and everybody, I suspect, in this room knows that we don’t get the kind of news coverage in Wales that, for example, Scotland gets, whether it’s on public broadcasting or through the print media, which, in Wales, is very weak compared to Scotland. The question in my mind is how we look to resolve that. Is it best done via money, in some way, or best done via regulation? If it’s best done via regulation, should that be at UK level, at Welsh national level or a combination of both?
In order to address this market failure, if I could ask you first, Martyn, because you raised this, what would regulation look like? Now, let’s say, for example, the powers rested perhaps with Welsh Ministers or with the Assembly itself to regulate broadcasting in order to ensure that that market failure you’ve identified was addressed, how would you do it, given the fact that, of course, so much broadcasting comes from elsewhere, particularly across the border? How can you say to a broadcaster—let me talk about public broadcasters here, I have another question about broadcasting more widely. How do you do it? What do the regulations look like? What do they seek to enforce?
We'll start with the BBC. There has to be an element of quota, let's be honest, and I think that the BBC has initiated internally, with discussion, sets of quotas, and that’s on spend, mainly. They are economic quotas when it comes to Wales broadly. So, the whole nation strategy outside the M25 has been driven by the spend. So, it's not so much on what it is, but it's on the spend within the BBC, and that's been fantastic and it's been great for the sector.
What has been more of a struggle, and I think might be, is the whole sense of representation, which has been looked at a number of times when I was there, and continues. Do do you say, 'You've got to have 10 per cent of Welsh people on screen on national, et cetera?' The most draconian thing is to say, ‘You’ve got to have that many hours made by BBC Wales in Wales for a Welsh audience in current affairs, politics, on radio.’ Do you regulate radio? Do you say, ‘You’ve got to have a morning news programme’ which is current affairs, because they’ve been changes there? How much do you go in to regulate and discuss with the BBC? I think that is difficult, and it’s much better done as a joint effort, to actually have both onside, because the BBC—there is, as we’ve seen, a will, there's definitely a will to serve nations, diversity and minorities. But it’s how you do that. Do you bring it down into absolute hours, sanctions, et cetera, bring potential sanctions if not through Ofcom?
But I think in commercial public service broadcasting, it’s different, as you say, again, how you do that.
The issue for me is, on which bodies can any regulation actually bite if they're at Welsh level? What are the 'sanctions'—to coin a phrase that was used yesterday in the Chamber—what are the sanctions to ensure that the regulations are adhered to? It's all very well having a set of rules, but if everyone takes no notice of them, where there's no sanction, then they're pointless.
Would it be the case, then, that what we're looking at here is a stronger voice, clearly, for Wales at UK level, at the very least, but are we looking, really, at looking to say to public broadcasters, 'This is what you have to do?' And then, of course, the other question is: do you do that, then, in terms of devolved powers, or do you do it at a UK level? Isn't it easier to say to the BBC, 'Right, this is your quota across the whole of the UK for the nations and regions'?
I think to reach where we want to reach, I think, is a very difficult path. I wouldn't suggest that it's not. We've gone down a route, within the BBC, and also Channel 4, of an economic route—not, I would say, a lesser cultural route than the requirement. It's been driven by economics, and the Channel 4 spend in Wales is—. Quite often, they make programmes that are nothing to do with Wales. So, it's an economic imperative that's been behind it, which I think, is easier to judge, in a way, and Ofcom have the rules.
To do it in the sense of the higher objectives of public service broadcasting is really hard. But do you say replace money with hours? You say, 'You've got to do that certain number of hours'. ITV have a requirement to do that certain number of hours. Do you go along that route, which is sort of there, but make it stronger and bring the Welsh political voice as a stronger influence in setting those targets and quotas and former programming? And I think it is difficult. I wouldn't say it's not difficult, but if you're only going along an economic route in terms of the quotas, you get economic benefit. But do you get the sense of fulfilling the market failure that we accept that is there? The market is not supplying something I think we all agree needs to be supplied. And I think if you go purely along the economic quota route, which is where we are now, I would say, broadly, do you get that? Have you got to try for something more?
Can I bring Mick in here with a supplementary question?
Is part of the problem that we just don't have a clear vision as to what we actually want broadcasting to actually deliver with regard to Wales?
I think there's a kind of general sense, words that we say about it, but perhaps we need a clearer objective of the role we see for public service broadcasting. I'd probably agree that we've identified the issue for a number of years—the market failure—but what do we want it to look like?
I went on a management course at the BBC, and the only thing I took away from it is to work out your objective and how you get there, and perhaps we haven't worked out what we want it to look like. We know what we don't want it to look like in Wales, in some ways, in terms of market failure, but what would we like it to look like? And then, how—which is an even tougher question—do we push people, sanctions, whatever, to get there?
Thank you. Llion.
Buaswn i'n hoffi ymhelaethu ychydig bach ar beth oedd Martyn yn ei ddweud ac awgrymu beth allwch chi fod yn ei wneud fel gwleidyddion.
Yn gyntaf, felly, mae gennym ni’r darlledwyr, y darlledwyr i gyd, dim jest yng Nghymru. Mi fedrwch chi fod yn pwyso arnyn nhw i wneud yn siŵr, wedyn, bod y cwota sydd yn mynd i’r nations and regions o ran yr oriau, y gwaith sy’n mynd i’r cwmnïau yna, yn cael ei gadw ato fo. A'ch bod chi hefyd yn edrych yn agosach ar y rhaniad cenedlaethol—Cymru, yr Alban, rhannau o Loegr, a Gogledd Iwerddon—a thu hwnt i hwnna wedyn, bod yna gyfran o’r rhaglenni nid yn cael eu gwneud yno ond yn darlledu am yr ardal yna, yn gohebu am yr ardaloedd yna; bod y lluniau, y straeon dŷn ni’n eu gweld o’r gwledydd yna’n cael eu dangos ar y sgrin. Mae yna fudd economaidd yn hynny wedyn, yn gyntaf. Dwi’n gwybod dwi'n siarad fel un sy'n gweithio yn y cwmni am hynny, ond mae yna fudd economaidd i’r wlad tu hwnt i’r cwmnïau. Ac wedyn, mae’r lluniau, y straeon, a’r acenion dŷn ni’n eu clywed ar y sgrin, wedyn, yn dod yn llawer mwy cyfoethog. Felly, mae yna fodd yn barod i fod yn pwyso. Mae'n adeg da iawn, efo'r holl drafodaethau sydd gyda'r darlledwyr, i fod yn pwyso arnyn nhw. Dim jest y BBC, mae hyn amdanyn nhw i gyd. Byddai hynny wedyn yn cynyddu lefel y gwaith, ac wedyn yr ymwybyddiaeth trwy Brydain am y gwahanol rannau o Brydain. Felly, y gwead y mae'r darlledwyr i fod yn ei wneud. Roeddech chi'n sôn am sut y byddem ni'n gallu gweithredu hynny. Mae o'n edrych ar yr oriau a faint o'r gwaith a'r arian sydd yn cael ei warchod yno. Bod y cwmnïau sydd yn y gwledydd yna yn gwneud y gwaith am y gwledydd yna hefyd. Bod yna ddim cwmnïau sy'n dod i mewn ac yn agor is-swyddfa, felly.
I just want to add a little bit to what Martyn said and what you can do as politicians.
First of all, we have the broadcasters, all the broadcasters, not just in Wales. You could put pressure on them to ensure that the quota that goes to the nations and regions in terms of the hours and the work that goes to those companies is kept too. You are also closer, then, to that national perspective, the nations—Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales—and beyond that, then, that there is a proportion of programmes not only being made there, but are broadcasting about that area and reporting about those areas so that the reports that we see are from those countries and they'e on the screen. There is economic benefit to that. There is economic benefit to the country beyond the companies, and then, the stories, the pictures, and the accents that we hear on the screen, then, become much richer. So, there is a way now of lobbying. It's a good time, with all the discussion that's happening with broadcasters, to lobby them. And not just the BBC, this is about them all. That would increase the level of work, and the awareness throughout the UK about different parts of the UK. So, the weaving that broadcasters are supposed to do. You mentioned how we could implement that. It's looking at the number of hours and the work and the funding that's safeguarded there. That the companies in those countries are doing the work about those countries too. That companies aren't coming in and opening a sub-office, for example.
Diolch. Carwyn? No. Can I turn to David Melding then, please?
I just want to explore the consequences of if we have a more radical model where, in effect, broadcasting in Wales is devolved completely, so that's Welsh and English speaking. My own position is that, in a federal system, you would expect to see—I don't like using 'minority language' to describe Welsh, but in international literature, this is how accounts of decentralised federal systems often go—that the sub-state unit would definitely have minority language broadcasting responsibilities. It's always looked odd, in my view, that that didn't happen in Wales.
But obviously there is this argument that's been advanced that we could go much further—and even further than what's happened in Scotland, but perhaps inspired by that—and manage the Welsh broadcasting space. Llion, I think that is probably a line that you would like to see us develop. I just wonder how the English side of that is going to work, because obviously people would continue to require a very large amount of English-language material that is made outside Wales, and obviously some of it, a fair amount, can be made within Wales. So, how would that get access, and what sort of funding model would we have to ensure that happened? Because we would have to be purchasing a very large amount of material content for that sort of system to operate, and I just wonder if you feel that has been thought about in terms of the different model that's been proposed, by some anyway, in Wales.
Ar y funud, mae yna ddarlledwyr sydd yn gweithio ar yr ochr commercial, ac maen nhw'n cael arian o'r ochr busnes a hysbysebu. Felly, mae'r darlledwyr yna yn gweithredu ar yr ochr yna. Y rhai sy'n cael arian cyhoeddus—. Dwi'n meddwl mai'r pwnc mawr ydy'r drafodaeth dros y ffi drwydded a funding model y BBC yn y tymor hir. Mae hwnna wedyn yn effeithio yn uniongyrchol ar Gymru, achos mae cymaint o'r arian yna yn ariannu darlledu yng Nghymru—y BBC a thrwy hynny S4C. Felly, hwnna ydy'r un y mae angen cymryd rhan ynddo fo. Mae gennych chi rôl, buaswn i'n awgrymu, yn hynny, yn rhoi eich barn ar ran Cymru yn fanna.
Roeddech chi'n trafod wedyn o ran y ddwy iaith a sut rydym ni'n gallu sicrhau bod pobl Cymru yn cael y tegwch yna o ran beth rydym ni'n ei gael ar y sgrin. Fel roeddwn i'n dweud yn gynt, dylid rhoi pwysau ar y darlledwyr i gyd bod yna lefel o raglenni sy'n ddisgwyliedig am y gwledydd yna, a bod y straeon rydym ni'n eu cael nid jest yn ffeithiol, ond ym myd drama hefyd. O ran sut mae'n cael ei ariannu, a'r pwysau sydd ar y BBC a S4C yn sgil hynny ar y ffi trwydded, mae hwnna'n allweddol—bod S4C a BBC Cymru yn cael yr arian digonol yna i ohebu ar Gymru, a darlledu am Gymru.
At the moment, there are broadcasters working on the commercial side, and they receive income through business and advertisements. So, there are broadcasters working there. In terms of those that are publicly funded—. I think the major issue is the debate around the licence fee and the funding model for the BBC in the longer term. That will then have a direct impact on Wales, because so much of those funds do fund broadcasting in Wales—the BBC and through it S4C. So, that's the debate that we need to participate in. I would suggest that you have a role in doing that, in expressing your views on behalf of Wales.
You then moved on to ensuring that the people of Wales are treated fairly in both languages in terms of what's on our screens. As I said earlier, we need to urge all of the broadcasters to ensure that there is a level of programming that's expected about those nations and regions, and that the stories that we hear are not just factual, but also in drama. In terms of how that's funded, given the pressures on the BBC and S4C because of the licence fee, that's crucial—that S4C and BBC Wales receive sufficient funds to cover Wales and to broadcast about Wales.
Do you want to add anything to that, Martyn?
The licence fee is such an important debate we're entering, potentially, now. I think Wales has a particular voice in that, because I think we're back to the market failure. If you do dismantle the licence fee in whatever form, I think the consequences for Wales and public service broadcasting could be really serious. So, I think it's really important that the Welsh perspective and the Welsh situation is heard through this debate, and not glossed over in the broader sense.
We've got to be licensed for the global market. We can't build a border in Wales and have this cottage-industry broadcasting. It has to play into public service broadcasting and the global market. Programmes that are made in Wales for Wales can sell and go around the world. We've made a few. We don't want to end up being parochial, absolutely not. But what we do need, I think, is something that serves the needs of people in Wales in a broadcasting sense—a kind of baseline of public service broadcasting that works within the global marketplace. I don't think you can separate this out. We can't become a state outside this massive industry, which is what it is in culture.
So, I think the support has to aim to have a baseline of what we supply for Wales, what needs to be supplied for Wales by public service broadcasting. A lot of that can go around the world and in various forms. If you look at drama, a small documentary series we've made has been sold around the world, and things like that. So, I think you could potentially get both working within and knowledge of the global market.
So, managing the spectrum doesn't today carry any advantage at all, does it? Unless we all went around and sent Government inspectors to ensure that whatever box people have their signals through was restricted to the one carrying Welsh content only. But how much of a worry is that? At the minute, people don't have to watch BBC Wales or listen to Radio Wales, do they?
No.
You can tune into the London version or the Northern Irish, whatever you want.
The way we consume now is just so different. It's fully democratised, isn't it? Or anarchy, whichever way you look at it. We can view anything on any platform, and that's why content is still king. People go to a brand, to something, and they can make their choice. You can't change that, it's just a tsunami that's—
So, if it's content driven, content has to be lively and engaging, otherwise—
Content has to be lively and engaging.
You can't regulate yourself into a rut.
No, and you can't force people to watch content about Wales. You can't force people to watch content about Wales in Welsh. There's not that commitment to—. I think the younger generation, and Llion will know better than me about young people, don't watch S4C as a political gesture, they watch it because they want to watch it. There's that element that the older generation who fought for it would watch it because it was almost like a political statement to watch it decades ago. But that's all changed. Young people are watching it because they want to watch it.
So, I think the regulation is making content about Wales that is good, lively and will travel, as well as meeting the needs of the Welsh audience. So, I think that's the way you can intervene, to some extent, to support production in Wales about Wales but of a quality that could be watched around the world. The way to market now is so different. We've set up a YouTube channel, Facebook, et cetera. The old models are changing, and that's why the marketplace is such a volatile area now.
A ydych chi am ychwanegu unrhyw beth, Llion?
Anything to add to that, Llion?
Na.
No.
David, are you finished? Mick.
You've answered a few of the questions I wanted to ask, but a few of the things that have been suggested in the various evidence briefs that we've had from various organisations are ultimately around resources and funding. I suppose the starting point is that we are a net beneficiary in terms of the licence fee. Is the issue for us the amount we get or just the way that it is used? You mentioned having a stronger voice, et cetera, is that really the crux of the problem that we immediately face?
I'd go back to it is keeping the pressure up, I would say, in a sense, to an acceptance of Wales and what public service broadcasting—. Coming back to the BBC in a way, but looking at the importance of the BBC to Wales, and make it clear to, at the moment, London and BBC management that that is one of their key public service elements. There was some extra money after a long campaign, five or six years ago, given to BBC Wales to spend on its programming, and that was a co-ordinated campaign, which I know some of you were involved with, to actually make that case and to get some action on it. So, I think it's that sense of making sure that our voice is heard for funding and then making sure, perhaps, that the representation voice is heard as well as the economic case. That spend in Wales is a way of making it more about Wales, made in Wales, and programmes that will travel but represent Wales. I think that's a bigger challenge for the BBC, in some ways.
Right. I don't want to go too far into that because we're going over a lot of things that have already been said. Suggestions have been made that there are other funding formulae—tech taxes and all these sorts of things. What's your view on some of the suggestions that have been made about other mechanisms, if we had the competence to do it, in terms of realistically raising significant funding to supplement, to add to, or even to replace existing funding models?
Replacing the current model completely would just be so damaging to broadcasting and to the wider business elements connected with that. Safeguarding the current levels, I think, is reasonable and potentially achievable. Companies are also diversifying and strengthening their business sites. So, they're looking for other streams of funding from other partners. So, then you're able to make the programmes of that standard. But having your core business from that public service model, which then serves the people of the country, because you're forced to go purely commercial, you'd be just making programmes to sell, and I think that the broadcasting in Wales, and about Wales, would then inevitably suffer.
Could I just raise one point? I know time is obviously an issue. If there were radical change to the licence fee, do you think that would present a major or an imminent threat to the type of public broadcasting, and broadcasting generally within Wales, that we have or would be able to achieve?
I do. The licence fee model is anachronistic. If you started now, you probably wouldn't create it. But would we create the NHS in the way that it is now, if you move it on? So, I'd be very worried about saying, 'We could go to subscription, or tech tax', et cetera, et cetera. The concern is, let's look at the licence fee and whether there is something to be done about it. But if you took away that, particularly in Wales, as a core support for our public service broadcasting, in a place where the market doesn't supply it, I can't see a model that replaces that in any form that is anywhere near as effective, for its faults, of the licence-fee model. All the various subscription, tech tax and all that, yes, they are smaller elements, but put that together to be a core base for public service broadcasting in Wales—I don't see it myself. I struggle to be convinced.
Inevitably, it would affect. There have been ongoing discussions and wide reporting of the impact on journalism and news service especially, which would then obviously filter down through Wales and impact then on the current news service that we have.
Thank you. Thank you, both.
Diolch yn fawr iawn i'r ddau ohonoch chi am eich tystiolaeth. Fel dŷch chi'n gwybod, byddwn ni'n anfon copi o'r transcript atoch chi fel eich bod chi'n gallu sicrhau bod popeth yn gywir. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Thank you both very much for your evidence. As you know, we will send you a copy of the transcript so that you can check that it's accurate. Thank you again.
Diolch.
Thank you.
Cynnig:
bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).
Motion:
that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
In accordance with Standing Order 17.42, can I invite the committee to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting?
Yes, agreed.
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 11:18.
Motion agreed.
The public part of the meeting ended at 11:18.